1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 31 Dec 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 724       Contents:1 Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ... + Re: Better graphics card for my PWS  600au? + Re: Better graphics card for my PWS  600au? 4 Re: Demise of VMS (and most other operating systems)4 Re: Demise of VMS (and most other operating systems)8 Re: deporter the boot message from the console in a file8 Re: deporter the boot message from the console in a file8 Re: deporter the boot message from the console in a file8 Re: deporter the boot message from the console in a file8 Re: deporter the boot message from the console in a file! Re: First Hammer performance test  Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: is VMS really easy to use? Re: Link errors. Re: Link errors.1 Re: looking for CD-RW or DVD-RW capability on VMS  Re: MAIL as a filing cabinet1 Re: Of Galaxy, Infiniband and Distributed Caching 1 RE: Of Galaxy, Infiniband and Distributed Caching 1 Re: Of Galaxy, Infiniband and Distributed Caching 1 Re: Of Galaxy, Infiniband and Distributed Caching  openssl certificates help % Re: Pathworks MAC (printer) debugging ' Re: printing of string descriptors in C 	 Re: rrd40 	 Re: rrd40 	 Re: rrd40 	 Re: rrd40 " Re: SMP Alphaserver 4100 CPUBAD???" Re: SMP Alphaserver 4100 CPUBAD???" Special offer for Attunity ConnectP Re: Unix and Wintel are not the only games in town ( was Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun ai Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth  Re: VMS 7.2-1, patches and DCE VMS troubles Re: VMS troubles Re: VMS troubles Re: VMS troubles Re: VMS troubles Re: VMS troubles Re: VMS troubles Re: VMS troubles Re: VMS troubles Re: VMS troubles Re: VMS troubles> Re: Volume Shadowing (was: Re: Hello Kieth Parris... pls help)1 Re: VT220/320 Terminal emulator for Linux client? 1 Re: VT220/320 Terminal emulator for Linux client?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:46:48 -0000 , From: "Andrew" <as014e1574@blueyonder.co.uk>: Subject: Re: "VMS will be around long after we retire" ...< Message-ID: <bIkQ9.505$q77.431@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>   > ? > Homophobic?  Let's be real.  3% of the world is of that bent.       F 3% sounds dubiously low to me.   However this newsgroup is not here toD discuss sexuality, minority groups and related issues, regardless of  anyone's opinion on the subject.  L I've long been a reader on here partly because of the fact that contributorsG do post VMS-relevant stuff.  It'd be a shame for that to change for the  worse.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:53:55 -0500  From: "ICUSC" <sales@hpaq.net>4 Subject: Re: Better graphics card for my PWS  600au?/ Message-ID: <v11fu3ne98br94@news.supernews.com>   1 We have some Powerstorm 4D20's incoming next week    Pricing will be around $450   $ That's less than a Powerstorm 300 ??   We reopen Jan 2nd    DT    5 "Rich Jordan" <duodec@speakeasy.net> wrote in message + news:9mKdnRmFCsesV5KjXTWcpw@giganews.com... J > I just went through that on my PWS600au. I was running an Elsa (actuallyB > Powerstorm 4D10T) at 1280x1024x24, which worked but was slow andG > jittery; a long time ago Fred Kleinsorge posted to the effect that at F > higher resolution and pixel depth, the Elsa was near the edge of itsI > capabilities so screen jitters and anomalies could occur, and I believe H > the recommendation was to stay at lower resolution and/or pixel depth. > I > Since the powers that be won't make newer cards like the Powerstorm 300 G > or Oxygen work on EV5 systems like ours, the best cards available for G > VMS are the older TGA2 PowerStorm 3D30 (8-plane) and 4D20 (24 plane), J > the latter of which is quite hard to find and usually expensive when youG > do, unless you pick one up from someone buying a PWS that ran UNix or G > VMS and plans on switching to Linux (the TGA2 cards mentioned are not & > well supported there under XFree86). > J > I got lucky and picked up a 4D20, paid about twice what a PCI Powerstorm? > 300 cost in the aftermarket, and it works fantastically well. @ > 1280x1024x24, clean, fast, and rock solid on my VRC21 monitor. > > > To change what your Elsa is running at, try editing the fileH > SYS$MANAGER:DECW$PRIVATE_SERVER_SETUP.COM  I'm pretty sure you can runF > 1024x768x24 with a fairly clean display, or 1280x1024x8 (256 colors) > without too much issue.  > H > BTW, is your card a DEC Elsa or a third party unit?  That might make aH > difference, though I've no direct experience with an aftermarket unit. > 
 > Rich Jordan  >  >  > Didier Morandi wrote: I > > I have an ELSA GLORIA SYNERGY something in my PWS600au which gives me I > > only 16 colors or so. What can I do to have "normal" pictures display F > > with DECwindows? Change a parameter? (which one, where), install a) > > "real" PC-like card? (which one, how)  > >  > > Thanks,  > >  > > D. >    ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 09:27:24 -0800& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)4 Subject: Re: Better graphics card for my PWS  600au?= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0212310927.2075b1ea@posting.google.com>    Dave, ?      I don't know your current prices, but I get the bulk of my E home/hobby stuff on Ebay (except for the PWS600au itself, which I got D a great deal with licenses on from Great Lakes in 1/2001).  I'd beenF watching for a 4D20 for almost 18 months, but every one that showed up< went well over $200 (and I do have a budget; this is a hobbyD environment) or came with equipment I didn't need and a higher price4 (plus shipping for the system that it came with...).  D      I bought a PS300 (pci) when someone put a series of them up forD auction and got it for << $100 (then lost the EV6 I bought it for atC work... sold right out from my desk...), and eventually picked up a E 4D20 from an Ebay seller who was selling workstations with dual 4D20s C in them (sold me just the card for about double what I paid for the F PS300(pci); we both did OK).  From what I've seen the demand for 4D20sC in the cheap aftermarket (hobbyist) is much higher than for PS300s; C its a bit surprising since its mostly VMS demand (Linux likes other B cheaper cards much better), but there's a _lot_ of PWS systems outE there that went out with non-VMS cards or Elsas landing in hobby/home E settings.  And PS300s don't work there, and on EV6 systems the Oxygen F card is a viable substitute for most people (much better than the Elsa is compared to a 4D20)   Rich    U "ICUSC" <sales@hpaq.net> wrote in message news:<v11fu3ne98br94@news.supernews.com>... 3 > We have some Powerstorm 4D20's incoming next week  >  > Pricing will be around $450  > & > That's less than a Powerstorm 300 ?? >  > We reopen Jan 2nd  >  > DT >  > > L > > I got lucky and picked up a 4D20, paid about twice what a PCI PowerstormA > > 300 cost in the aftermarket, and it works fantastically well. B > > 1280x1024x24, clean, fast, and rock solid on my VRC21 monitor. > >    ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 07:21:48 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) = Subject: Re: Demise of VMS (and most other operating systems) 3 Message-ID: <ui74ajRNCfjn@eisner.encompasserve.org>   b In article <3E106A84.6010004@vajhoej.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote: > H >>    Yes, it looks like it is.  So why didn't any of the IP vendors for( >>    VMS choose it for binary transfer? >  > 5 > Traditionally a VMS binary file has been fixed 512.   F    Can't agree on that.  Other than the linker I don't think I saw anyF    program write fixed 512 binary files before I added a TCP/IP stack.1    And the image activator doesn't actually care.   ?    In any case VMS traditions is not what RFC 959 is all about.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:36:40 +0100 6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>= Subject: Re: Demise of VMS (and most other operating systems) ) Message-ID: <3E11AB78.4050008@vajhoej.dk>    Bob Koehler wrote:  d > In article <3E106A84.6010004@vajhoej.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: >>Bob Koehler wrote:H >>>   Yes, it looks like it is.  So why didn't any of the IP vendors for( >>>   VMS choose it for binary transfer?    5 >>Traditionally a VMS binary file has been fixed 512.     H >    Can't agree on that.  Other than the linker I don't think I saw anyH >    program write fixed 512 binary files before I added a TCP/IP stack.     Never used LIBRARY ?   :-)     ! ZIP also creates fixed 512 files.     3 >    And the image activator doesn't actually care.      True.      A >    In any case VMS traditions is not what RFC 959 is all about.    No.   > But those doing FTP implementations have to look a bit at what VMS users will expect.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:07:09 +0100 ) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> A Subject: Re: deporter the boot message from the console in a file 4 Message-ID: <3e117a5d$0$146$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>   Didier Morandi wrote:  > $!+ " > $! sys$manager:systartup_vms.com< > $! v1.1-0 30-HP-2002 DMo redirect standard output to file. > $!-  > $! Disable error management  > $ set noonJ > $! Assign default output from procedure to file. First I/O will create =   > file. * > $ define sys$output sys$manager:boot.log > $  > ../..  > $ * > $! close access to file will close file. > $ deassign sys$output  > $! end of sys$startup_vms.com  > $ exit >=20 > D. >=20 > serge.zangheri a =E9crit:  >=20 >> Hi,J >> I would like to get the boot messages from the console in a file or at=  ' >> least in a decterm of an another VS.  >=20 >=20  H Although this will work, it has the disadvantage that everything that=20J gets output *before* SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM gets invoked, will not be recorded= =2E   G The only way to really get everything, is using a console management=20 J package like ConsoleWorks or CommandIt. A poor mans console manager can=20J be made by connecting the console port of the system-to-be-managed to a=20E terminal server or to a serial port of a PC or workstation. In the=20 I latter case you can use a command like SET HOST/LOG/DTE TTA<n> to both=20 9 record the data to a file and be able to use the console.   H An other option is to set the SYSGEN parameter STARTUP_P2 to "D". The=20G result will be that a big part of the startup log will be written to=20  SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP.LOG.       I wish everyone a happy newyear!   Regards,  	 Bart Zorn    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:14:06 +0100 4 From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr>A Subject: Re: deporter the boot message from the console in a file & Message-ID: <3E11B43E.9060301@Free.fr>   Bart Zorn a crit:H > Although this will work, it has the disadvantage that everything that L > gets output *before* SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM gets invoked, will not be recorded.  P Correct; But should anyone care of the strartup phases output before the system  specific part of it?  6 To you too and to all the "Dear Group" my best wishes.@ I hope we will be numerous at the VMS burial ceremony next year.   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:17:25 +0100 $ From: Michael Unger <unger@decus.de>A Subject: Re: deporter the boot message from the console in a file * Message-ID: <00A19481.55991261.1@decus.de>  7 "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi.nospam@Free.fr> wrote:    > [...]  > 8 > To you too and to all the "Dear Group" my best wishes.  3 Seconded. Health and a happy New Year particularly.   B > I hope we will be numerous at the VMS burial ceremony next year.   Already scheduled? When? Where? ' Did I miss important announcements? :-)    Michael    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:04:34 +0100 ) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl> A Subject: Re: deporter the boot message from the console in a file 4 Message-ID: <3e11dc32$0$151$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>   Didier Morandi wrote:  > Bart Zorn a =E9crit: >=20J >> Although this will work, it has the disadvantage that everything that =  F >> gets output *before* SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM gets invoked, will not be=20 >> recorded. >=20 >=20J > Correct; But should anyone care of the strartup phases output before th= e=20 > system specific part of it?   I Well, system managers regularly also use SYCONFIG.COM, SYLOGICALS.COM,=20 J SYPAGSWPFILES.COM, SYSECURITY.COM and others. And that's even documented =  & in the standard OpenVMS documentation!   >=208 > To you too and to all the "Dear Group" my best wishes.B > I hope we will be numerous at the VMS burial ceremony next year.  I This ceremony will probably get as much coverage as anything regarding=20  OpenVMS!   >=20 > D. >=20   Bart   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:38:17 -0400 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>A Subject: Re: deporter the boot message from the console in a file / Message-ID: <3E11D604.62A298DF@vl.videotron.ca>    Didier Morandi wrote: Q > Correct; But should anyone care of the strartup phases output before the system  > specific part of it?  I I care fare more about the initial "console" messages than I do about the I systartup_vms output. And I car very much about teh "sorry, the system is J crashing, here is the dump of registers, process anme etc" message that isV sent to OPA0:, for those, the only way is to log OPA0: to a file via the RS232 output.  K Remember that in a cluster, OPCOM may be logging onto only a single system. N When connectivity to the rest of the cluster is lost, the other nodes's output; doesn't get logged into file, only displayed on their OPA0:    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:50:03 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy * Subject: Re: First Hammer performance test. Message-ID: <3E11765B.1020308@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:  > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote in message news:<3E101AF6.9070004@nospamn.sun.com>...  > < >>Its a bit difficult to sue someone for patent infringement< >>if they have licensed the technology from you in the first >>place. >>- >>Or are you forgetting the AMD Digital deal.  >>6 >>In reality the people who should be worried and very3 >>probably are will be the Intel PC vendors who are 1 >>all facing potentially very damaging costs from / >>Intergraph which stem from Intergraphs patent  >>dispute with Intel.  >>1 >>HP among others are in Intergraphs sights. Many 1 >>of them may well be regretting not using AMD in  >>more of their PC products. >>1 >>As an Intel cloner AMD will have been very very 1 >>carefull about how they design their processors 1 >>making sure that they don't infring any patents  >>they havn't licensed.  >>	 >>Regards  >>Andrew Harrison  >  > ; > what is stupid is why do these companies license or steal : > alpha technology with the huge risk of being caught when7 > alpha was for sale ... they could have just bought it ; > instead of trying to reinvent the wheel again and wasting 9 > a lot of money in r&d costs ... stupidity!  this is the < > same mistake Gates made by trying to steal vms thru Cutler= > for NT instead of just buying alpha vms and putting windoze  > on top of it ... STUPIDITY!!!   , Not quite sure how this helps your argument.  - And Microsoft didn't steal vms, they borrowed 2 it without permission but ended up in an agreement0 with Digital which effectively ment that Digital gave vms to them.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2002 16:32:58 -05007 From: pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? - Message-ID: <auqe2a$osi$1@shell.monmouth.com>   ' In article <3E107DA6.C4C71CB8@fsi.net>, 0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: >Bill Gunshannon wrote:  >>  2 >> In article <v0ved7ie0genc9@corp.supernews.com>,. >>         Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:5 >> > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: H >> >: Actually, you raise an interesting point: when I got my first UNIXL >> >: system back in 1986, I spent a good couple of months or more trying toL >> >: figure out how to actually PRINT out the manual pages in hard copy, asI >> >: opposed to having them scroll up my screen. Sorry, but I still work  >> >: better from hard copy. > I >Exactly. Geting those two commands took a matter of minutes. Getting the  >entire "manual" tooks months. >  >--  >David J. Dachtera >dba DJE Systems >http://www.djesys.com/      Actually something like this   cd /usr/share/man   F find . -type f -print |eqn | tbl |groff -Tps -man $i |lpr -Ppostscript  " Real intuitive for an end user eh?  3 That's why they've had all those Unix guru types...   4 That's why the Windows types make fun of Unix types.  ? That's why IBM's Unix OS AIX replaced man pages with this wierd ' cross between man and bookreader stuff.   G That's why I purchased the full SysV and BSD 4.x stuff in hardcopy when  I first met Unix.   F Now I'd just print them to postscript files and make pdf's of 'em so I2 can read 'em on Windows, OS/2, MS-DOS, and Unix...     Bill     --  M +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ M | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter    |        pechter@shell.monmouth.com        | M |   Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in  | N |   a James Bond movie              -- Dennis Miller                        | M +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:14:49 -0000 ! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? / Message-ID: <v132hpd9ou389d@corp.supernews.com>   / Mark E. Levy <levy@sysman-NOSPAMinc.com> wrote: G : The system described above should have had a larger pagefile, or the  G : PGFLQUOTA for the account in question should have been smaller. It's  I : also possible that the sysgen parameter WSMAX was set too high for the   : amount of available memory.   ' Shoulda coulda and woulda.  But didn't.   ? Obviously, with inexpert system mangament, even a really solid, > high-quality o/s like VMS can fall prey to single users taking down an entire system.  @ Regardless, the ansewr is still "yes" to "can a single user take down a VMS system?"    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:18:56 -0000 ! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? . Message-ID: <v132pga8kms18@corp.supernews.com>  < Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:X : In article <aufdt7$8g7$1@knossos.btinternet.com>, "matt" <matt987@hotmail.com> writes:" :> At least with VMS you can't do: :>   :>     rm *.tmp   H :    Using VMS means never having to figure out how to delete _only_ the :    file named *.c   A Fundamental Unix shell rule: anything inside double quotes is not  expanded by the shell.  5 You want to delete the Unix file named *.c?  rm "*.c"    Unix isn't rocket science.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:22:09 -0000 ! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? / Message-ID: <v132vhigd2e87b@corp.supernews.com>   < Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:? :> I believe even a novice can learn to use man in a few hours.   D :    I believe even a novice can learn to use help in a few minutes.   No argument here.   9 One feature man has that VMS HELP lacks: man -k [keyword]    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:28:07 -0000 ! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? / Message-ID: <v133anj6q4se52@corp.supernews.com>   0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:B :> With all due respect, you need a better system manager for your :> Win 2K system.   . : So, each W2K desktop needs a SysAdmin ???!!!  G No, just one for all machines.  But, just as with VMS, s/he has to have & a good grasp of how to manage the o/s.  G I'm not trying to insult anyone here.  Just because Win 2K is "Windows" F that doesn't mean you can plop it on a drive, fire it up and then walkF away and expect everything to work w/o any hands-on system management.  E I've seen companies when everyone has an NT machine on their desk and I they're all admin users. (!)  The reason was: "it makes s/w installation  ; easier."  That's an uptime disaster just waiting to happen.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:11:39 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? . Message-ID: <3E11897B.3070606@nospamn.sun.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote:
 > Z wrote: > ( >>Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> wrote:" >>:>>Win 2000 is pretty damn good.? >>:>>Not quite Enterprise Critical quality yet, but damn close.  >>:>A >>:>Compared to what? Win98? NT4?  Certainly not compared to VMS.  >>K >>: My W2k system crashes regularly 2-3 times a week, with no more use than I >>: email and MS-Office.  On the other hand, I've had one crash on my VMS H >>: systems that I pound the heck out of in the last 6 months.  And that >>: was a hardware fault.  >>A >>With all due respect, you need a better system manager for your  >>Win 2K system. >  > . > So, each W2K desktop needs a SysAdmin ???!!! > G > Sheesh! ...but then I guess that's BG's contribution to job creation, 	 > eh? ;-)  >    Sadly they do.  < Take my home PC as a case in point. It runs XP, it came withA something called BigFix, which trawls your config and a net based 2 database for critical fixes that you should apply.  8 Currently it averages 1 major fix a day, ranging in size from 250K up to 7 MB.   7 Now most people I know who arn't computer literate take 8 no notice of this kind of system. Why do I need to apply/ these things called patches, what is a DLL etc.   0 So their systems crashe more than they should do& or someone hacks them or infects them.  2 It isn't difficult to apply the patches themselves5 but most users don't have the systems admin mentality  that makes them want to do it.  3 And very few would then go to the extent of backing 6 up their system before applying the patch and updating  their recovery disks afterwards.  3 Some people would call this futzing, but in the end 3 it all boild down to people having to perform basic 2 systems admin tasks on their desktops all the time/ at their expense in time and network bandwidth.    Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 07:18:10 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? 3 Message-ID: <Mv3s+sRvcAv4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <aupjhg$9badv$3@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > C > And this brings us back to wether or not Unix is as stable/secure 1 > as VMS. It all comes down to the Sys Admining.    >    Nope.  A lot of it comes down to design and implementation.   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 07:24:56 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? 3 Message-ID: <FYl52qBCY8SG@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3E107EDA.98C08041@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: 
 > Z wrote:. > So, each W2K desktop needs a SysAdmin ???!!!  C    We joke about uptime and security patches with our MS admin.  He     knows he has job security.    ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 07:26:40 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? 3 Message-ID: <5gVVmB1AAFSi@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <auqe2a$osi$1@shell.monmouth.com>, pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) writes:  > Actually something like this >  > cd /usr/share/man  > H > find . -type f -print |eqn | tbl |groff -Tps -man $i |lpr -Ppostscript > $ > Real intuitive for an end user eh?  H    Right.  You can get that out of studying the man pages for just a few
    months.  9    Oh, you wanted to get the man pages?  Well, see above.    ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 07:27:25 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? 3 Message-ID: <fBQ0QimRns6v@eisner.encompasserve.org>   R In article <v132pga8kms18@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes: >  > Unix isn't rocket science. >       You can say that again.   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 07:27:51 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? 3 Message-ID: <Jzb0m4HvUOJw@eisner.encompasserve.org>   S In article <v132vhigd2e87b@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes: > > Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:A > :> I believe even a novice can learn to use man in a few hours.  > F > :    I believe even a novice can learn to use help in a few minutes. >  > No argument here.  > ; > One feature man has that VMS HELP lacks: man -k [keyword]   #    Nope.  It's called "help hints".    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:46:17 +0100 6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? ) Message-ID: <3E11ADB9.7050206@vajhoej.dk>    Z wrote:   > AG <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote:7 > : Ever seen a newbie trying to figure out how to exit * > : [or whatever the term may be] from vi?    > > That's why most people I know use Emacs or vim or some other > more recent editor,      Yep.    6 But the problem with those is that you can not rely on them being on all systems !    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:52:45 +0100 6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? ) Message-ID: <3E11AF3D.3030703@vajhoej.dk>    John Wallace wrote:   K >                                               This isn't something MS can M > fix, it's part of the Win32 architecture. All it needs is a suitable wit to N > put this together with a buffer overflow exploit or the JVM flaw of the weekN > and around 100% of the world's Win32 boxes can be 0wned by a bunch of scriptL > kiddies. Where is the equivalent architectural flaw in either VMS or Unix?  B 1)  You just stated that it is a x86 problem not a windows problemC      and then you continue saying that this can not be found in VMS       or Unix ????   F      Well VMS does not run on x86, so that is true. But Unix do run on
      x86 !   2)  "JVM flaw of the week" ????   D      Could you list 52 JVM flaws found in 2002 ? I do not think do !  B      And JVM flaws is also completely irrelevant here, because youC      are talking about Datacenter Edition  and JVM flaws relates to ?      the Applet sandbox (and I assume people do not buy Windows 0      Datacenter Edition to browse the internet).   Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:57:41 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? H Message-ID: <FfiQ9.105225$yW.92704@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message / news:aupj1r$9badv$2@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de... 1 > In article <v0ve1tcb2t1i29@corp.supernews.com>, % > Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes: 1 > > Bill Gunshannon <bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu> wrote: A > >: Win2K SP3.  These are lab machines, regularly reloaded using  ghost B > >: and with no "home grown application or pieces of code".  And, whenD > >: no one is logged on, there is nothing running that isn't a part of > >: Win2K.  > > ... D > >: Could be Norton, I suppose.  I assume Vshield runs even when no one  > > D > > Impossible.  Norton is not part of Win 2K.  You stated twice now6 > > that nothing's running when people are logged off. > A > Actually, giving it some thought, it likely isn't Norton (if it C > is in fact running when no one is logged on, I really don't know) B > as I have other machines running the same version of Norton that? > do not exhibit this particular behavior.  In the long run, it D > really doesn't matter why, it only matters that the Win2K machinesD > are the only ones that exhibit this annoying behavior among a veryB > heterogenous configuration and that they require more of my timeB > than all the other systems, some of which I can literally ignore > for months at a time.     A It is not unheard of to see PC's crash due to some weirdness that C occurs in the PCI or AGP card slots, or even the CPU socket itself. E Call it thermal expansion or oxidization of the contacts or something A else - I've never bothered to analyze it that closely when it has  happened to me  E The machine will BSOD without any prior warning, no error logged, and B will do so repeatedly upon reboot. A reseating of the CPU or videoF card, or some other peripheral card will often solve the problem. NoteE that this appears to be the cause when the system repeatedly fails to F reboot after the initial BSOD, though it could also be a thermal issueC too. We all know that Windows (all versions) have a myriad of other = significant problems that alone can cause the system to BSOD.   < This hardware issue could occur irrespective of the o/s thatD particular PC is running, BSD, linux, Windows, QNX, etc...., and mayC be a reflection of manufacturing quailty control more than anything B else. I know a number of people who use a spray-on compound on all< their card contacts to promote better electrical continuity.   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 15:06:36 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? 5 Message-ID: <ausbps$a58cu$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>   3 In article <5gVVmB1AAFSi@eisner.encompasserve.org>, > 	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:i > In article <auqe2a$osi$1@shell.monmouth.com>, pechter@shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter) writes:  >> Actually something like this  >>   >> cd /usr/share/man >>  I >> find . -type f -print |eqn | tbl |groff -Tps -man $i |lpr -Ppostscript   B Hmmmm...  Let's look at this. You changed directory to a directory@ that may or may not acually contain manual pages (depends on the. the system, primarily the age of the system).   ; Which, of course, won't do what you really wanted it to do:   #              i: Undefined variable.    Now the command itself.   C find . -type f -print >> returns a list of filenames starting where F                          you are inthe tree and going down from there.  I |eqn | tbl |groff -Tps -man $i  >> You then piped that list of file names L                                 >> into a series of text processing commandsK                                 >> which will ignore them because your find M                                 >> output doesn't contain any text processing J                                 >> commands.  It then hits a call to groffH                                 >> which fails because "i" is undefined.  H |lpr -Ppostscript  >>  And because "i" was undefined, there is (luckily)I                        no output for the lpr command as it would not have 3                        been what you wanted anyway.   E And, this also fails to account for the fact that most of the manpage B sources will likely be compressed to save space.  It also fails toF account for the fact that there are a paralel set of directories underE man that contain already typeset files of the pages frequently called  by the man command.   = But then, all the complaints that show up here about Unix are09 usually from people who know absolutely nothing about it.    >> i% >> Real intuitive for an end user eh?t > J >    Right.  You can get that out of studying the man pages for just a few >    months. > ; >    Oh, you wanted to get the man pages?  Well, see above.e >    Let's try it the easy way:  J We'll assume you verified the location of the raw manpages (using whereis)I and that /usr/share/man is correct and that your postscript printer is onl a queue named "Postscript":a   cd /usr/share/man 3 find ./man? -exec groff -man {} \;|lpr -PPostscript   : Not as confusing as the example above, and this one works.  C It should be noted, that this may not print all of the man pages on F the system as there can be local manpages in another directory.  ThereE is usually a defined variable called MANPATH that contains all of thel manpage directories.    E People here should really learn how Unix works before criticizing it.    bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 15:30:01 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?r5 Message-ID: <ausd5p$999vp$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>   ) In article <3E11ADB9.7050206@vajhoej.dk>, & 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
 > Z wrote: >  >> AG <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote:o8 >> : Ever seen a newbie trying to figure out how to exit+ >> : [or whatever the term may be] from vi?n >  > ? >> That's why most people I know use Emacs or vim or some other  >> more recent editor, >  >  > Yep. >  > 8 > But the problem with those is that you can not rely on > them being on all systems !  >   B Not to mention the fact that "vim" being a clone of "vi" exits theI same way and that EMACS uses an even more obscure set of key combinations0/ to exit (ie. ^X^C -- now that's intuitive!! :-)p   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ,   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:55:57 +0100 6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?s) Message-ID: <3E11BE0D.5020509@vajhoej.dk>o   Bill Gunshannon wrote:   > cd /usr/share/mans5 > find ./man? -exec groff -man {} \;|lpr -PPostscriptt > < > Not as confusing as the example above, and this one works.  / Still not exactly obvious for the Unix newbie !-   :-)-   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:57:54 +0100.6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?1) Message-ID: <3E11BE82.6060206@vajhoej.dk>o   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  + > In article <3E11ADB9.7050206@vajhoej.dk>,d( > 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
 >>Z wrote: >>>AG <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote:n8 >>>: Ever seen a newbie trying to figure out how to exit+ >>>: [or whatever the term may be] from vi?a? >>>That's why most people I know use Emacs or vim or some other  >>>more recent editor,8 >>But the problem with those is that you can not rely on >>them being on all systems !eD > Not to mention the fact that "vim" being a clone of "vi" exits theK > same way and that EMACS uses an even more obscure set of key combinations91 > to exit (ie. ^X^C -- now that's intuitive!! :-)D   What about X interface ?   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 16:07:52 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?95 Message-ID: <ausfco$a84k7$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>h  ) In article <3E11BE0D.5020509@vajhoej.dk>,l& 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: >  >> cd /usr/share/man6 >> find ./man? -exec groff -man {} \;|lpr -PPostscript >>  = >> Not as confusing as the example above, and this one works.g > 1 > Still not exactly obvious for the Unix newbie !s >  >:-)  F Of course not.  But we're not newbies, we are all professionals here. E And, contrary to popular belief VMS isn't any more intuitive.  PeopledH here think that the use of HELP instead of "man" is somehow more logicalG for the un-initiated.  Guess what, when I go to the library and need tolG find something I may not look it up in the "man" file, but I also don'tnE look it up in the HELP file. I use a card catalog.  So why then isn't B the VMS HELP system called the card catalog??  Seems that would be, more intuitive to the non-computer expert.    C It's time to admit that none of this on any system is intuitive and B neither was it intended to be.  All of this was designed at a timeG when only computer professionals used computers and it was all designedcJ for them.  It's all jargon and assumes a basic knowledge of the particularI system in use, even from the beginning.  Which probably explains why mosttE job ads specifically list the systems they want prospective employees1B to be familiar with.  If everything were intuitive and obvious, it wouldn't make any difference.    bill   -- hJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   h   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 16:15:19 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? 5 Message-ID: <ausfqn$a84k7$2@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>-  ) In article <3E11BE82.6060206@vajhoej.dk>,0& 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > , >> In article <3E11ADB9.7050206@vajhoej.dk>,) >> 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:n >>>Z wrote:  >>>>AG <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote:9 >>>>: Ever seen a newbie trying to figure out how to exitu, >>>>: [or whatever the term may be] from vi?@ >>>>That's why most people I know use Emacs or vim or some other >>>>more recent editor,f9 >>>But the problem with those is that you can not rely onp >>>them being on all systems !E >> Not to mention the fact that "vim" being a clone of "vi" exits theiL >> same way and that EMACS uses an even more obscure set of key combinations2 >> to exit (ie. ^X^C -- now that's intuitive!! :-) >  > What about X interface ?  B What about the X interface??  The original compaint was about "vi"C which is not an X program.  Neither was EMACS until someone graftedfB an X frontend on it.  I am sure if someone actually thought it wasA worth the effort an X frontend could be added to the "vi" clones. B But why bother??  The biggest advantage to "vi" and it's clones isC that it can do full screen editing on a wide selection of charactersC cell terminals.  Something that VMS editors have never been able toeB do.  In the days before the INTERNET this was likely not a problemC as most VMS shops had lots of DEC terminals.  Today, one can not beh@ so sure to have a valid DEC terminal when needing to access thatF remote VMS machine.  And one doesn't always have the ability to run X.     bill   -- mJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:35:58 +0100 6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? ) Message-ID: <3E11C76E.4040202@vajhoej.dk>4   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  G > And, contrary to popular belief VMS isn't any more intuitive.  People1J > here think that the use of HELP instead of "man" is somehow more logicalI > for the un-initiated.  Guess what, when I go to the library and need to I > find something I may not look it up in the "man" file, but I also don't4G > look it up in the HELP file. I use a card catalog.  So why then isn'tiD > the VMS HELP system called the card catalog??  Seems that would be. > more intuitive to the non-computer expert.   > E > It's time to admit that none of this on any system is intuitive and D > neither was it intended to be.  All of this was designed at a timeI > when only computer professionals used computers and it was all designeddL > for them.  It's all jargon and assumes a basic knowledge of the particularK > system in use, even from the beginning.  Which probably explains why most-G > job ads specifically list the systems they want prospective employeesOD > to be familiar with.  If everything were intuitive and obvious, it > wouldn't make any difference.    ????  7 So you claim that if you ask 100 people with no VMS and : no Unix experience about what the command for getting help2 is, then "help" and "man" will be picked equally ?  6 I think that is wrong. My guess is that none will pick6 "man", that "help" will be the most popular choice and1 that "?" will be the second most popular choice !   > There are a difference between english words and abbreviations of english words.i   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:38:51 +0100c6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?a) Message-ID: <3E11C81B.9040305@vajhoej.dk>r   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  + > In article <3E11BE82.6060206@vajhoej.dk>,o( > 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: >>Bill Gunshannon wrote:, >>>In article <3E11ADB9.7050206@vajhoej.dk>,) >>>	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:, >>>>Z wrote: >>>>>AG <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote:B: >>>>>: Ever seen a newbie trying to figure out how to exit- >>>>>: [or whatever the term may be] from vi?3A >>>>>That's why most people I know use Emacs or vim or some other  >>>>>more recent editor,: >>>>But the problem with those is that you can not rely on >>>>them being on all systems !sE >>>Not to mention the fact that "vim" being a clone of "vi" exits therL >>>same way and that EMACS uses an even more obscure set of key combinations2 >>>to exit (ie. ^X^C -- now that's intuitive!! :-) >>What about X interface ? > D > What about the X interface??  The original compaint was about "vi" > which is not an X program.    > And ? You claimed that it was as diffciult to get out of emacs as to get out of vi.  < I just noted that even this may be true for emacs in VT then it may be false for emacs in X.w   Extremely relevant.n  C >                           Neither was EMACS until someone graftedtD > an X frontend on it.  I am sure if someone actually thought it wasC > worth the effort an X frontend could be added to the "vi" clones.k    D To my best knowledge the X interfaces was added to emacs a long long2 time ago and is part of the standard distribution.   Big difference.r   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:39:42 +0000m' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy2' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? . Message-ID: <3E11C84E.9070508@nospamn.sun.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:+ > In article <3E11BE0D.5020509@vajhoej.dk>, * > 	Arne Vajh=F8j <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: >=20 >>Bill Gunshannon wrote: >> >> >>>cd /usr/share/man6 >>>find ./man? -exec groff -man {} \;|lpr -PPostscript >>>-= >>>Not as confusing as the example above, and this one works.M >>1 >>Still not exactly obvious for the Unix newbie !p >> >>:-)o >=20 >=20J > Of course not.  But we're not newbies, we are all professionals here.=20G > And, contrary to popular belief VMS isn't any more intuitive.  PeoplerJ > here think that the use of HELP instead of "man" is somehow more logica= leJ > for the un-initiated.  Guess what, when I go to the library and need to=  J > find something I may not look it up in the "man" file, but I also don't=  G > look it up in the HELP file. I use a card catalog.  So why then isn't D > the VMS HELP system called the card catalog??  Seems that would be0 > more intuitive to the non-computer expert. =20 >=20E > It's time to admit that none of this on any system is intuitive and D > neither was it intended to be.  All of this was designed at a timeJ > when only computer professionals used computers and it was all designed=  J > for them.  It's all jargon and assumes a basic knowledge of the particu= larrJ > system in use, even from the beginning.  Which probably explains why mo= stG > job ads specifically list the systems they want prospective employees D > to be familiar with.  If everything were intuitive and obvious, it > wouldn't make any difference.  >=20  5 Of course if you have access to the web then its mucha, easier than that. Well at least for Solaris.  8 docs.sun.com gives you the option to download a PDF file5 for each of the manual sections, you can then read itl) or print it depending on your preference.h  2 Personaly I wouldn't print it the PDF for the user commands is ~1700 pages.   Regardsc Andrew Harrison0   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 11:07:19 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?S3 Message-ID: <cK8n2k$Wsrze@eisner.encompasserve.org>S  S In article <v132hpd9ou389d@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:e  A > Obviously, with inexpert system mangament, even a really solid,s@ > high-quality o/s like VMS can fall prey to single users taking > down an entire system.  ? I once did a security review of a site and found one VMS system!> where every user (including DEFAULT) had the bypass privilege.   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 11:08:24 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? 3 Message-ID: <4ADhJk1axI64@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  S In article <v132vhigd2e87b@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:e> > Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:A > :> I believe even a novice can learn to use man in a few hours.m > F > :    I believe even a novice can learn to use help in a few minutes. >  > No argument here.r > ; > One feature man has that VMS HELP lacks: man -k [keyword]h  > But Unix seems to lack proponents who will explain the meaning. of Unixisms they write into VMS newsgroups :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 11:11:51 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? 3 Message-ID: <DAuSd$4M0axm@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  b In article <3E11C76E.4040202@vajhoej.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:  9 > So you claim that if you ask 100 people with no VMS and < > no Unix experience about what the command for getting help4 > is, then "help" and "man" will be picked equally ? > 8 > I think that is wrong. My guess is that none will pick8 > "man", that "help" will be the most popular choice and3 > that "?" will be the second most popular choice !   < I am not convinced that "help" would beat "?", but for those> without Unix experience it is certain that "man" would be left= far in the dust (even further if it does not work spelled outt: as "manual").  I would expect it to trail "documentation", "how" and "what".t   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 17:42:49 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?i5 Message-ID: <auskuo$a3s7a$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>b  ) In article <3E11C76E.4040202@vajhoej.dk>,i& 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > H >> And, contrary to popular belief VMS isn't any more intuitive.  PeopleK >> here think that the use of HELP instead of "man" is somehow more logicaloJ >> for the un-initiated.  Guess what, when I go to the library and need toJ >> find something I may not look it up in the "man" file, but I also don'tH >> look it up in the HELP file. I use a card catalog.  So why then isn'tE >> the VMS HELP system called the card catalog??  Seems that would bes/ >> more intuitive to the non-computer expert.    >> nF >> It's time to admit that none of this on any system is intuitive andE >> neither was it intended to be.  All of this was designed at a timeiJ >> when only computer professionals used computers and it was all designedM >> for them.  It's all jargon and assumes a basic knowledge of the particular-L >> system in use, even from the beginning.  Which probably explains why mostH >> job ads specifically list the systems they want prospective employeesE >> to be familiar with.  If everything were intuitive and obvious, itC  >> wouldn't make any difference. >  > ???? > 9 > So you claim that if you ask 100 people with no VMS andi< > no Unix experience about what the command for getting help4 > is, then "help" and "man" will be picked equally ?  ? No, I'm saying that if you stopped 100 people on the street andi? asked them, "How would you look up the correct command to prints@ out all the files on a computer?" you would get neither "man" or= "HELP" but would most likely get, "I don't know." And if the >B question was any more complex than that, say, "How do you find out? how to print a prostscript file on a specific print queue?" youc( would most likely get the answer, "Huh?"   > 8 > I think that is wrong. My guess is that none will pick8 > "man", that "help" will be the most popular choice and3 > that "?" will be the second most popular choice !.  > You don't think that "HELP" rating higher might have something? to do with the fact that you used that term in the question, dol
 you??  :-)   > @ > There are a difference between english words and abbreviations > of english words.i  A And there is a difference between english words and jargon.  WhenoC I look something up in a book I don't consider that "getting help".sB I, and I would think most people, think of "HELP" as involving theG assistance of some other person.  VMS people see HELP as more intuitive,F only because that is how they have been doing it for so long.  BelieveJ it or not, some Unix versions had a "help" command. Ultrix-11 for example.D The fact that all of the following systems did not adapt it seems toD belie the fact that everyone would have found it more obvious.  EvenA more interesting is probably the fact that while DEC had a "help" E command under Ultrix-11 they dropped it under Ultrix-32.  Having seen-E the source, I can assure everyone that it would have worked just fineeB without modification. (I did compile it just to try it out under aG current version of FreeBSD.  Worked just fine.)  What's more, Ultrix-32eG shipped with a handy reference titled: "The Little Gray Book: An ULTRIXmH Primer".  In the back of this book is section called: "Coming to ULTRICXE from VMS" and this section specifically lists "man" and "apropos" as sC the "ULTIRX Equivalent" of the VMS HELP Command.  So, although theymE already had it, even DEC didn't think HELP was a useful command under H their version of Unix. Go figure. And, in case the argument now becomes,J "well, it was only DEC and they dropped it in order to remain compatable."F Wrong.  I checked my Primix (Prime's version of Unix) manuals and theyI also had a help command.  It just seems to me that some people, includinge4 DEC didn't think it was that important a difference.   bill   -- RJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 17:52:42 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use? 5 Message-ID: <auslha$a3s7a$2@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>t  ) In article <3E11C81B.9040305@vajhoej.dk>,t& 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > , >> In article <3E11BE82.6060206@vajhoej.dk>,) >> 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:  >>>Bill Gunshannon wrote: - >>>>In article <3E11ADB9.7050206@vajhoej.dk>,s* >>>>	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:
 >>>>>Z wrote:   >>>>>>AG <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote:; >>>>>>: Ever seen a newbie trying to figure out how to exita. >>>>>>: [or whatever the term may be] from vi?B >>>>>>That's why most people I know use Emacs or vim or some other >>>>>>more recent editor,S; >>>>>But the problem with those is that you can not rely on-  >>>>>them being on all systems !F >>>>Not to mention the fact that "vim" being a clone of "vi" exits theM >>>>same way and that EMACS uses an even more obscure set of key combinationsD3 >>>>to exit (ie. ^X^C -- now that's intuitive!! :-)u >>>What about X interface ?s >>  E >> What about the X interface??  The original compaint was about "vi"S >> which is not an X program.f >  > @ > And ? You claimed that it was as diffciult to get out of emacs > as to get out of vi. > > > I just noted that even this may be true for emacs in VT then! > it may be false for emacs in X.   @ I guess, if you consider that a feature of Emacs as opposed to aB feature of X.  I can exit vi by closing the X-window it is runningA in, it won't save my work, but it will get me out.  And, assuming @ I know so little about how to use the editor, I may  not wnat to) save what damage I have done anyway.  :-)i   >  > Extremely relevant.- > D >>                           Neither was EMACS until someone graftedE >> an X frontend on it.  I am sure if someone actually thought it was D >> worth the effort an X frontend could be added to the "vi" clones. >  > F > To my best knowledge the X interfaces was added to emacs a long long4 > time ago and is part of the standard distribution.  C Hmmmm..  Does Emacs for VMS support an X interface??  Wouldn't most D VMS users be using it from a VTsomething??  Speaking of standard andG Emacs in the same sentence seems somewhat of an oxymoron to me.  UnlessnE your one of those people who believes there was nothing prior to GNU.dC (Hint: I have used more versions of Emacs that did not support X orfB any other graphical interface than those that did!  And while theyC all recognized ^X^C to get out most had some other non-standard wayS like some F-key.)    bill   -- tJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   i   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 18:02:29 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?m5 Message-ID: <ausm3l$a3s7a$4@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>   5 In article <auskuo$a3s7a$1@id-135708.news.dfncis.de>, + 	bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:e > J > Primer".  In the back of this book is section called: "Coming to ULTRICXJ                                                                    ^^^^^^^G > from VMS" and this section specifically lists "man" and "apropos" as  E > the "ULTIRX Equivalent" of the VMS HELP Command.  So, although they 
        ^^^^^^h  F And if you think I have fumble-fingers now, wait till later on tonite.' I haven't even begun to celebrate.  :-)    bill   -- rJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:05:16 +0100e6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?f) Message-ID: <3E11DC5C.4010302@vajhoej.dk>)   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  @ >>And ? You claimed that it was as diffciult to get out of emacs >>as to get out of vi. >>> >>I just noted that even this may be true for emacs in VT then! >>it may be false for emacs in X.- > B > I guess, if you consider that a feature of Emacs as opposed to aD > feature of X.  I can exit vi by closing the X-window it is runningC > in, it won't save my work, but it will get me out.  And, assumingnB > I know so little about how to use the editor, I may  not wnat to+ > save what damage I have done anyway.  :-)h    > So you do not think there are a difference activating the file> menu and selecting exit or quit and just closing the window ??  F >>To my best knowledge the X interfaces was added to emacs a long long4 >>time ago and is part of the standard distribution. > E > Hmmmm..  Does Emacs for VMS support an X interface??  Wouldn't most1, > VMS users be using it from a VTsomething??    ? No. I think most VMS users today (unlike for 10 years ago) haveC access to X.  = But not particular relevant in a discussion about how to quita
 Unix editors..  I >                                                Speaking of standard andiI > Emacs in the same sentence seems somewhat of an oxymoron to me.  Unless G > your one of those people who believes there was nothing prior to GNU.m  ? It is my impression that GNU Emacs is and has been the de factoa# standard emace for many many years.    Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 18:05:43 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?t5 Message-ID: <ausm9m$a3s7a$5@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>o  3 In article <4ADhJk1axI64@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 	Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:U > In article <v132vhigd2e87b@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:p? >> Bob Koehler <koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org> wrote:eB >> :> I believe even a novice can learn to use man in a few hours. >> 1G >> :    I believe even a novice can learn to use help in a few minutes.  >> o >> No argument here. >> m< >> One feature man has that VMS HELP lacks: man -k [keyword] > @ > But Unix seems to lack proponents who will explain the meaning0 > of Unixisms they write into VMS newsgroups :-)  > Oh please....  That particular one has been mentioned here andA adequately explained numerous times already.  And, although until-B I saw it mentioned here I had never heard of it and thus had neverF used it, I thought "HELP HINTS" did pretty much the same thing anyway.   bill   -- uJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:10:46 +0100 6 From: Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk>' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?-) Message-ID: <3E11DDA6.8050002@vajhoej.dk>2   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  + > In article <3E11C76E.4040202@vajhoej.dk>,c( > 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:9 >>So you claim that if you ask 100 people with no VMS and < >>no Unix experience about what the command for getting help4 >>is, then "help" and "man" will be picked equally ? > A > No, I'm saying that if you stopped 100 people on the street andaA > asked them, "How would you look up the correct command to print1B > out all the files on a computer?" you would get neither "man" or4 > "HELP" but would most likely get, "I don't know."     7 True. But just imagine they were asked to try guessing.p  8 >>I think that is wrong. My guess is that none will pick8 >>"man", that "help" will be the most popular choice and3 >>that "?" will be the second most popular choice !e > @ > You don't think that "HELP" rating higher might have somethingA > to do with the fact that you used that term in the question, doo > you??  :-)     Actually no.  = It would be same result if we asked for "what the command forD5 getting information about the commands available is".A  % Help is a common word everyone knows.   @ >>There are a difference between english words and abbreviations >>of english words.- > C > And there is a difference between english words and jargon.  When"E > I look something up in a book I don't consider that "getting help".DD > I, and I would think most people, think of "HELP" as involving theI > assistance of some other person.  VMS people see HELP as more intuitive1? > only because that is how they have been doing it for so long.n    4 No. Everyone except the Unix crowd sees it that way.   Try:    gcc ---help    gcc --man on any box or:
    help xcopya    man xcopy  on a recent flavour of Windows !   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 18:51:37 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)' Subject: Re: is VMS really easy to use?n5 Message-ID: <ausovo$a0pop$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>u  ) In article <3E11DDA6.8050002@vajhoej.dk>, & 	Arne Vajhj <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes: > Bill Gunshannon wrote: > A >> You don't think that "HELP" rating higher might have something B >> to do with the fact that you used that term in the question, do
 >> you??  :-)o >  >  > Actually no. > ? > It would be same result if we asked for "what the command for 7 > getting information about the commands available is".. >   F Here is where we don't agree.  I think most would say, "I don't know."  ' > Help is a common word everyone knows.h  > But I don't think it is so common in our context, except among& people who are already computer users.   > A >>>There are a difference between english words and abbreviations  >>>of english words. >>  D >> And there is a difference between english words and jargon.  WhenF >> I look something up in a book I don't consider that "getting help".E >> I, and I would think most people, think of "HELP" as involving theeJ >> assistance of some other person.  VMS people see HELP as more intuitive@ >> only because that is how they have been doing it for so long. >  > 6 > No. Everyone except the Unix crowd sees it that way. >  > Try: >    gcc ---help >    gcc --man  B Context.  The "man" command is used for printing manual pages, notC for getting help.  Asking gcc to print a manual page makes no senseBA as that's what the "man" command is for.  Many Unix commands have = a "help" option (usually refered to as usage() and not help.)b   > on any box or: >    help xcopyt >    man xcopy" > on a recent flavour of Windows !  I Again, there are no manual pages on Windows, so why have a "man" command..G It seems the real argument here is the lack of a user help command likeaG VMS has on Unix.  Being as it would be relatively trivial to write (theaF "help" command under Ultrix-11 is a grand total of 171 lines of C codeH and 8447 lines of text for the Help Messages), existed on early versionsH of Unix and wasn't continued in more recent versions it seems to me that? most likely the user community didn't see any advantage to it. e  B How about this, let's start a list of all the OSes we can think of9 and how many of them had a HELP command. :-)  I'll start.o       OS              HELP?h    VMS               yes&    Unix              some yes, some no    OS9               yes    Exec-8            no     Primos            yes    MSDOS             yes    CPM               nop    RSTS              yes    RT11              yes    RSX-11            yes    IBM-4331 (Edgar)  noo    Don't see a pattern forming yet.  = (That's all the ones I have used that I can actually remembere< enough about to say or that I still have documentation for.)   bill   -- iJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:48:28 -0500o& From: "Ed Vogel" <ed.vogel@compaq.com> Subject: Re: Link errors.o. Message-ID: <3e10b11d$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  F        Argh....they made Ed take last week off, so he's having trouble today...  E         After further review, the V6.5 documentation is correct.  The  default          is /PREFIX=ALL."  H        The part of the Release Notes I looked at was the "What's new for V6.4        section.".   H         What is important to note is that the meaning of /PREFIX=ALL hasI         changed from meaning "Everything that's supported in the CRTL" tonI         "Everything that's supported in the CRTL plus any C99 functions."   L         The documentation implies this when it says that /PREFIX=C99_ENTRIESH         is a subset of /PREFIX=ALL, but the doc could be better.  I just spokeqL         with our writer (who was the one that pointed out my confusion here) ande@         we agreed that he'd add some more words for /PREFIX=ALL.  "         Sorry for the confusion...  
         Ed   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:59:29 -0500o& From: "Ed Vogel" <ed.vogel@compaq.com> Subject: Re: Link errors.p. Message-ID: <3e10a5a2$1_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  G "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote in messages7 news:7f15589f.0212301108.7c0afb7c@posting.google.com...  | Hmm, on-line help says |lE |      For /STANDARD=ANSI89, the default is /PREFIX=ANSI_C89_ENTRIES.  |f= |      For /STANDARD=C99, the default is /PREFIX=C99_ENTRIES.l |b@ |      For all other compiler modes, the default is /PREFIX=ALL. |nD | Since the default standard qualifier is /RELAXED_ANSI89 (which I'mH | assuming falls under "other"), I would have thought /PREFIX=ALL is the$ | default.  Am I reading this wrong? |t  A     The documentation/HELP was not updated to reflect this changetI     we made.  As I recall, we made this change rather late in the releasemK     cycle.  I've sent a note to the writer so that any future documentationo should?     contain the correct wording.  Thanks for pointing this out.   9 | C v6.5 (and I think one or two earlier versions) define-C | __STDC_VERSION__=199901L, and so I think are obligated to provideeH | snprintf and nan and strtof and all the other functions defined in theG | C99 standard.  I realize the compiler and the RTL are separate pieces2G | (owned by separate teams?), but the mismatch between what the version E | macro claims and what's really there causes real porting headaches.e> | I've encountered open source packages that provide alternateE | implementations to some functions but only make them visible if the F | version macro says the environment is not C99-compliant; that scheme? | fails on VMS because the compiler claims a level of standards ' | compliance that the RTL doesn't meet."  E     All good points.  Yea...we're in a difficult position because ther compilerD     group and the CRTL group(s) are in different organizations (with	 differentlF     priorities).  We understand the CRTL group will be providing these
 functions,L     perhaps in a release before the next compiler release.  We felt that ourC     solution, including defining  __STDC_VERSION__  was the best wed%     could do given these constraints.-  + | Thanks for a generally excellent product.   !     Thank you for the kind words.h       Ed   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2002 20:43:53 GMT# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)i: Subject: Re: looking for CD-RW or DVD-RW capability on VMS* Message-ID: <auqb69$h2e$2@web1.cup.hp.com>  W In article <3E033C42.40740992@lycos.com>, "Irving F. Snurd" <dacadc0@lycos.com> writes: I :We're running several DS10s (Alpha, OpenVMS 7.3, PCI bus, IDE) and would G :like to be able to write files (or do backup) to CD or DVD.  Are therejH :any driver/hardware combinations out there yet?  We could go SCSI if we	 :need to..  &   Hello and welcome to the newsgroups!  J   Please review the CD-R section in the OpenVMS Frequently Asked QuestionsL   (FAQ), and please use Google or other search engine to review the zillions/   of previous discussions of CD-R on OpenVMS.  r  "   The OpenVMS FAQ is available at:  '     http://www.hp.com/products/openvms/o  J   I'd encourage you to download and to search the text-format FAQ variant.L   (You will find answers to this question -- and many others -- in the FAQ.)  G   As I've stated in various previous replies on this CD-R topic, I have H   successfully used the Plextor PlexWriter SCSI 121032S on OpenVMS AlphaH   and on OpenVMS VAX systems.  ATA (IDE) CD-R drives might require a newG   DQDRIVER or a locally-backported version of DQDRIVER from the OpenVMS5H   Freeware -- I have not tried any ATA CD-R drives with OpenVMS. (RecentH   versions of DQDRIVER have IO$_DIAGNOSE support needed by some CD-R andF   related tools, older versions that had shipped with OpenVMS do not.)  H   OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-1 and later include latent versions of CDRECORD andG   LD, please see SYS$MANAGER:CDRECORD.COM for details.  The pointers ineG   the OpenVMS FAQ will provide you links to websites of folks that haveiD   worked with and/or that have ported CDRECORD and/or related tools.  F   One of the other local folks was able to get the hp DVD200i to work.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:14:04 -0500i- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>t% Subject: Re: MAIL as a filing cabinety5 Message-ID: <ausc86$9bfub$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>    JF Mezei wrote:i >...E > Has anyone found a way to create a mail message and store it in anyl > folder in one's mail files ? >...  J I have never tried this, but have you looked at MAIL$MESSAGE_COPY? Can youH call MAIL$MESSAGE_BEGIN and give it the name of the file you want storedH then call MAIL$MESSAGE_COPY and give it the folder you want to store theL message in? Or maybe you will have to mail the file to yourself, then selectK the message with MAIL$MESSAGE_BEGIN and then use MAIL$MESSAGE_COPY? I don't L remember if you can select a text file with MAIL$MESSAGE_BEGIN, but once youH get the context with MAIL$MESSAGE_BEGIN then MAIL$MESSAGE_COPY should do what you want.   -- Peter WeaverD Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer,A nor the company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it  sub-contracts to.$   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2002 08:45:22 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)i: Subject: Re: Of Galaxy, Infiniband and Distributed Caching3 Message-ID: <+wik54Dq3ef9@eisner.encompasserve.org>k  _ In article <VQGdnSXrCtSImY2jXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:zUavRscexpo8@eisner.encompasserve.org...mA >> In article <QRmdnTxQPOVmlJCjXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"h" > <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >  > I >> > The story of the past year has been one of IB startups dropping likef > flies.M >> > There may still be enough industry interest to preserve IB as a high-endtM >> > niche product, but as of now there's clearly nothing more than that (andt? >> > still some possibility that it will simply be still-born).a >> > >>/ >> I don't think so.  IBM has a great interest.  > N > Yeah.  So much that they've just announced that they're selling all their IBL > hardware development to Agilent.  Another Intel moment:  "We *really* likeE > the technology, but we're just going to let someone else handle theiG > development and then jump on the bandwagon if/when it actually startsi > rolling well." > L > Ditto Microsoft.  They didn't have any hardware development to cancel, butA > they've put supporting software on the back burner for a while.n >     = 	Maybe it makes sense.  Maybe also there isn't a whole lot of @ 	differentiantion to justify the investment, hence IBM gets out.A 	If they become commodity , IBM can't be in that segment and make  	money.e   > ...y > B >> >> That fact that Dell is jumping on Infiniband is an indicator  >> >> that it is cost effective. >> > >> > Reference, please?a >> > >>? >> Yes, type: "dell infiniband" in Google, the ones towards the-: >> top are stale but at the bottom of the first page, more" >> recent ones including this one: >>L >> http://www.serverworldmagazine.com/newsflash2/2002/12/19_infiniband.shtml > L > Interesting.  For a slightly less rose-colored-glasses view of exactly the > same announcement, see > 6 > http://news.com.com/2100-1001-978407.html?tag=fd_top > N > In both articles, it would be interesting to know exactly what Dell means byM > saying that its servers will be 'Infiniband-ready' (apparently the complete"F > extent of its 'jump onto IB').  Sounds to me kind of like if someoneJ > provides PCI cards and IB drivers to run them, Dell won't do anything to5 > prevent their use (and might even use them itself).t > G > By the way, note that HP abstained from giving even that level of lipu > service to IB: > 	 > <quote>n > E > Not all are so bullish. HP--one of the inventors of InfiniBand--wass3 > conspicuously absent from the joint announcement.  > J > "We're taking a wait-and-see approach. We don't believe that it's reallyL > lived up to the hype," the company said in a statement. "We're in the campI > more with Microsoft and Intel right now. If we start hearing some noisea/ > (from customers), we'll start looking at it."v > 
 > </quote> >   8 	For a better spin, from that same article back to Dell:  I http://www.serverworldmagazine.com/newsflash2/2002/12/19_infiniband.shtml   H Dell is actively testing InfiniBand cluster solutions in its labs and isJ working with its hardware and software partners throughout the industry to% increase support for the technology. l  @ 	I think it boils down to this.  For a datacenter interconnect, A 	nothing beats Infiniband for the next 3+ years.  The cost is and > 	will be substantially less than 10 Gbit Ethernet for the nextC 	3+ years.  Workarounds?  Multiple Gbit cards and hope your networkjG 	doesn't bite you, if  you are small.  If you realize you are bursting eD 	or would be bursting a channel above 100 MByte/sec , you certainly E 	need something greater than Gbit for an interconnect.  Hmmm... maybe A 	SQL doesn't read remote cache like an Oracle or DB2 would, could2 	that be a reason Microsoft isn't real interested?   	IBM?.  5 http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20021219S0004e  L IBM says it will support InfiniBand input/output technology in all servers.    	HP says it is for high-end:  5 http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20021219S0004h  M Although Hewlett-Packard is, along with Dell, IBM, and Sun, a founding membersH of the InfiniBand Trade Association, it's restricting initial InfiniBandM implementations to special situations, such as high-performance computing and>O clusters, which represent a small percentage of its customers' infrastructure.      H 	That tune will change as Dell and IBM Intel servers are more attractive0 	platforms for Infiniband enabled clusters, etc.   				Robf   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:36:40 -0500t' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>m: Subject: RE: Of Galaxy, Infiniband and Distributed CachingT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660C65@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Rob,   Re: workarounds ..  G >>> Multiple Gbit cards and hope your network doesn't bite you, if  you" are small. <<<  G Fwiw, one approach to solving network performance (and security) issueseD that I am currently using with a Customer doing a large VAX to Alpha+ ES45 migration is to use multiple VLANS.=20e  # VLAN1 - normal TCPIP/DECnet trafficm VLAN2 - Cluster traffic=20C VLAN3 - Mgmt traffic for various monitoring devices and activities.CF Isolated from other traffic and has various additional security things- added on from the network switch perspective.<  H Each VLAN is using cheap DE602's (dual ports) and the cluster traffic isC load balanced across two ports which are on different DE602's / PCI>B bus/hose combinations of the ES45. If cluster traffic increases inH future where both DE602's are a bottleneck (a very unlikely occurrence),@ all we need to do is drop a few more DE602's into the system andD OpenVMS's cluster load balancing at the interconnect level will take care of the rest.=20   Regardst  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanta Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicesa Voice: 613-592-4660i Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)        -----Original Message-----5 From: Rob Young [mailto:young_r@encompasserve.org]=20s Sent: December 30, 2002 9:45 AMS To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comi: Subject: Re: Of Galaxy, Infiniband and Distributed Caching    > In article <VQGdnSXrCtSImY2jXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >=20= > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message=20o/ > news:zUavRscexpo8@eisner.encompasserve.org...IA >> In article <QRmdnTxQPOVmlJCjXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" " > <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >=20 >=20G >> > The story of the past year has been one of IB startups dropping=20h	 >> > likes > flies.G >> > There may still be enough industry interest to preserve IB as a=20sJ >> > high-end niche product, but as of now there's clearly nothing more=20D >> > than that (and still some possibility that it will simply be=20 >> > still-born).g >> > >>/ >> I don't think so.  IBM has a great interest.  >=20H > Yeah.  So much that they've just announced that they're selling all=20J > their IB hardware development to Agilent.  Another Intel moment:  "We=20H > *really* like the technology, but we're just going to let someone else  E > handle the development and then jump on the bandwagon if/when it=20a  > actually starts rolling well." >=20H > Ditto Microsoft.  They didn't have any hardware development to cancel,  E > but they've put supporting software on the back burner for a while.s >=20    = 	Maybe it makes sense.  Maybe also there isn't a whole lot of @ 	differentiantion to justify the investment, hence IBM gets out.A 	If they become commodity , IBM can't be in that segment and makea 	money.o   > ...s >=20J >> >> That fact that Dell is jumping on Infiniband is an indicator that=20 >> >> it is cost effective.  >> > >> > Reference, please?m >> > >>J >> Yes, type: "dell infiniband" in Google, the ones towards the top are=20H >> stale but at the bottom of the first page, more recent ones including   >> this one: >>H >> http://www.serverworldmagazine.com/newsflash2/2002/12/19_infiniband.s >> htmlm >=20H > Interesting.  For a slightly less rose-colored-glasses view of exactly   > the same announcement, see >=208 > http://news.com.com/2100-1001-978407.html?tag=3Dfd_top >=20H > In both articles, it would be interesting to know exactly what Dell=20@ > means by saying that its servers will be 'Infiniband-ready'=20J > (apparently the complete extent of its 'jump onto IB').  Sounds to me=20H > kind of like if someone provides PCI cards and IB drivers to run them,  I > Dell won't do anything to prevent their use (and might even use them=20 
 > itself). >=20J > By the way, note that HP abstained from giving even that level of lip=20 > service to IB: >=20	 > <quote>j >=20H > Not all are so bullish. HP--one of the inventors of InfiniBand--was=203 > conspicuously absent from the joint announcement.e >=20F > "We're taking a wait-and-see approach. We don't believe that it's=20J > really lived up to the hype," the company said in a statement. "We're=20E > in the camp more with Microsoft and Intel right now. If we start=20cB > hearing some noise (from customers), we'll start looking at it." >=20
 > </quote> >=20  8 	For a better spin, from that same article back to Dell:  H http://www.serverworldmagazine.com/newsflash2/2002/12/19_infiniband.shtm lt  H Dell is actively testing InfiniBand cluster solutions in its labs and isG working with its hardware and software partners throughout the industryn* to increase support for the technology.=20  B 	I think it boils down to this.  For a datacenter interconnect,=20A 	nothing beats Infiniband for the next 3+ years.  The cost is andw> 	will be substantially less than 10 Gbit Ethernet for the next; 	3+ years.  Workarounds?  Multiple Gbit cards and hope your  networku= 	doesn't bite you, if  you are small.  If you realize you aree bursting=20.9 	or would be bursting a channel above 100 MByte/sec , you  certainly=20? 	need something greater than Gbit for an interconnect.  Hmmm...u maybeeA 	SQL doesn't read remote cache like an Oracle or DB2 would, couldL2 	that be a reason Microsoft isn't real interested?   	IBM?m  5 http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20021219S0004'  B IBM says it will support InfiniBand input/output technology in all servers.=20    	HP says it is for high-end:  5 http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20021219S0004   F Although Hewlett-Packard is, along with Dell, IBM, and Sun, a foundingD member of the InfiniBand Trade Association, it's restricting initial9 InfiniBand implementations to special situations, such asb@ high-performance computing and clusters, which represent a small/ percentage of its customers' infrastructure.=20u    = 	That tune will change as Dell and IBM Intel servers are more?
 attractive0 	platforms for Infiniband enabled clusters, etc.   				Robi   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 09:14:56 -0800& From: bitbyte256@hotmail.com (bitbyte): Subject: Re: Of Galaxy, Infiniband and Distributed Caching= Message-ID: <f1dc9d75.0212310914.188b5693@posting.google.com>   B I would like to try to answer a few points that have come up here.  B Intel droped out because they fell behind.  They had a workable 1xC HCA, TCA, and switch while the rest of the pack had 4x coming out.  E They realized they couldn't catch up and gave up.  They have investedt@ in several IB startups by the way.  They are also pursuing IB byE working with the sourceforge effort and by their involvment in IBTA. u- They also sponser IB areas at IDF every year.o  C MS stopped their IB plans because at that time the only working HCA C out there was Intel's.  Mellanox had not comeout with their 4x parteC yet nor had IBM.  Fujitsu had not entered yet either.  MS wanted tohC see companies building and supporting HCA cards, not chip vendors. eD Once Intel dropped out, it took some time for card vendors to form. > Now there are many including InfiniCon, TopSpin, JNI, Fujitsu, Paceline, and InfiniSwitch.E  C IBM left IB chips because they just couldn't do them right.  AnyoneHE really involved in IB has known this for sometime.  It is no surprisetE they gave up...it is more a surprise they kept at it this long.  TheyaE just couldn't get either their switch or HCA to work at an acceptabledF level.  Chip spins cost a lot of money and IBM decided to kill any IBME Microelectronics projects that were not making money.  They are stilleB involved with IB in IBTA and still want to use it, especially with8 their xSeries boxes.  Tom Bradich is a big backer of IB.  C Sun and Dell are very interested in IB.  Sun is making IB parts andiE does have a plan to use IB parts from other vendors initially.  It isuC all part of their N1 plan.  They are also very involved with IBTA. tF Dell is going to use IB for their bricks project.  They are evaluating> IB solutions from various vendors now.  Both Sun and Dell have invested in IB startups.  C On poster mentioned not having things to plug into IB.  First there.E are several protocols that are supported by the IB HCA vendors to runuF over IB.  They include IPoIB, SDP, SRP, MPI, and uDAPL.  IPoIB and SDPC work without change to current applications.  SRP is being used for B most IB to FC solutions.  Again, no change to applications are areD required.  Several HPC appplications are written to MPI so they willA not require any change to use IB.  Both DB2 and Oracle are movingt6 towards using uDAPL for their DB clustering interface.  E Also, several vendors are offering bridge products to get to etherneta and Fibre Channel from IB.   -- bitbytes   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 01:26:50 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: Of Galaxy, Infiniband and Distributed Caching2 Message-ID: <XZOcnXcXvfkipYyjXTWcqQ@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:+wik54Dq3ef9@eisner.encompasserve.org...B@ > In article <VQGdnSXrCtSImY2jXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd"  <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:   ...   I > > By the way, note that HP abstained from giving even that level of lip> > > service to IB: > >  > > <quote>e > >1G > > Not all are so bullish. HP--one of the inventors of InfiniBand--was>5 > > conspicuously absent from the joint announcement.  > >sL > > "We're taking a wait-and-see approach. We don't believe that it's reallyI > > lived up to the hype," the company said in a statement. "We're in theo campK > > more with Microsoft and Intel right now. If we start hearing some noisea1 > > (from customers), we'll start looking at it."> > >  > > </quote> > >  >t > For a better spin,  D Spin?  That's your speciality, Rob, not mine:  the above is a fairlyJ straight-forward quote from HP, presumably reflecting their opinion (since> there's no obvious benefit they could achieve by dissembling).  %  from that same article back to Dell:" >SK > http://www.serverworldmagazine.com/newsflash2/2002/12/19_infiniband.shtmld >cJ > Dell is actively testing InfiniBand cluster solutions in its labs and isL > working with its hardware and software partners throughout the industry to& > increase support for the technology.  H Gee, now *there's* a real commitment:  testing in the lab and talking it up...    >n@ > I think it boils down to this.  For a datacenter interconnect,B > nothing beats Infiniband for the next 3+ years.  The cost is and? > will be substantially less than 10 Gbit Ethernet for the nextlD > 3+ years.  Workarounds?  Multiple Gbit cards and hope your network& > doesn't bite you, if  you are small.  K Ever heard of switches, Rob?  IB needs them too, of course - and they allowtE either technology to scale very well to large configurations.  As fortI multiple cards, it's not at all clear why a single IB connection would behG any more reliable than a single Gbit Ethernet connection (and if you'rerJ going to have dual connections for availability, then the question becomesJ just how many link requirements couldn't be satisfied by two Gbit EthernetF links, with a combined bandwidth of 200 MBytes/sec in each direction).  !   If you realize you are burstingrD > or would be bursting a channel above 100 MByte/sec , you certainly7 > need something greater than Gbit for an interconnect.z  A As noted above, the real threshold may be 200 MBytes/sec (in each-D direction).  Now, for sufficiently short 'bursts' it's almost alwaysG possible to use all the bandwidth available, but that doesn't mean it'siF particularly *useful* to have the additional bandwidth available.  ForK example, at 100 MBytes/sec an 8KB request has a transfer overhead (over and-K above normal small-message latency) of 80 us.:  not negligible, but not allhK that bad either considering that you'd have to pay 15 - 20 times as much to@J reduce it to 8 us. (though you would have the option to halve it by movingE to 2 Gbit/sec FibreChannel at only about 5x the Gbit Ethernet price).      Hmmm... maybe B > SQL doesn't read remote cache like an Oracle or DB2 would, could3 > that be a reason Microsoft isn't real interested?   L Traditional Oracle page sizes are 2 KB (though IIRC they have a 'large' pageJ size of 16 KB for non-tabular - e.g., 'blob' - data):  not large enough toE care much about the link bandwidth, and their own internal processingnL overheads may be sufficient to make the latency difference between IB and GEH or FC fairly inconsequential.  That's assuming page-level inter-instanceI caching:  if they're doing row-level distributed access, the messages area4 even smaller.  I think that DB2's page size is 4 KB.  G It's much more likely that Microsoft's lack of interest centers on IB'seF apparent failure to become a commodity product (as had been originallyK hoped - a parallel with Itanic that I already noted).  When the IB HCA card0F costs about as much ($1700, according to the article you cited) as theH entire host server for a typical Microsoft installation, it makes one orD even dual $70 Gbit Ethernet links look a great deal more attractive.  G Don't get me wrong:  IB isn't both expensive and ugly like Itanic, justsK expensive.  It should make a good high-end cluster and storage interconnectsH for installations that Gbit Ethernet and 2 Gbit FC (and soon 10 Gbit FC)G can't quite satisfy - but the limited volume in that space will tend to K *keep* it expensive, while Ethernet (and to some degree FC) prices continuer! to fall to true commodity levels.    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 04:59:04 -0800D From: babiarz.at.endor.com <babiarz.at.endor.com_member@newsguy.com>" Subject: openssl certificates help( Message-ID: <aus4ao09ve@drn.newsguy.com>   I have the following softwarem@ Compaq SSL for OpenVMS Alpha verion 1.0 based on OPENSSL 0.0.6.B	 VMS 7.2-1u  < I have created the local certificates for the sample program5   SSL$SIMPLE_SERV and SSL$SIMPLE_CLI. They work fine.i  ; I now need to get SSL$SIMPLE_CLI to work with a certificate % from what I will need for actual use.c  7 The certificate was sent to me from the organization in J PKCS12 format. Using IE windows 98 was was able to convert to a .CER file.; I moved the .CER file to the VMS system and renamed it .CRTt& I was able view the certificate using   2  $ openssl x509 -noout -text -in ssl$certs:tna.crt    7 In the SSL$SIMPLE_CLI.C program there is the following.l  $ #define RSA_CLIENT_CERT "client.crt"$ #define RSA_CLIENT_KEY  "client.key"  M I changed RSA_CLIENT_CERT to "tna.crt" compiled, linked, executed and get the. following error message when (K A call to SSL_CTX_use_Private_key_file generates the following message when  using certificate TNA.CRTr  J 696489:error:0B080074:x509 certificate routines:X509_check_private_key:key values mismatch:X509_CMP:279:e    M It appears I need a tna.key file. How do I generate one? The original TNA.P12u (PCKS12 format) fileN had a password, which I used to allow the file to be loaded into IE window 98.  8 Anyone had any experiences in doing something like this?   john babiarz   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2002 19:23:27 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) . Subject: Re: Pathworks MAC (printer) debugging0 Message-ID: <auq6ff$6in$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  b In article <3E100A89.60A297AB@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:L >I have pathworks MAC 1.3a on a VAX VMS 7.2  on node BIKE. The queue managerN >and DCPS software run on node VELO with a shared queue manager database. (butN >otherwise separate system disks). the PRING and SUBMIT commands from DCL work >fine on both VELO and BIKE. > 3 >The file share works fine (albeit are slow speed).  > N >However, the printing has odd behaviour. On the MAC side, all seems fine, andL >in fact, a file is deposited succesfully into the MSAP$SPOOL directory, but6 >such file is not submitted to any queue for printing. >4= >the MSAP$RECEIVERE image issues the follwing OPCOM message: > >y> >MSAP-E-NOSNDJBC, status 98994 on submit file to queue , ref 1 >e >98994 is "record not found".o >eJ >HELP/MESSAGE says it is either a licence issue or a record not found in aL >file. I do not have any pathworks licences. If there was a licence problem,M >wouldn't this image refuse to even go as far as publishing the printer namesm >to the appletalk clients ?  >n >rN >I have been able to run the image interactively with SET FILE WATCH to try toK >see what files it accesses. It accesses SYSUAF.DAT, "ENGLISH.TXT", the PPDtI >file in the same directory as ENGLISH.TXT, the DCPS$DEVCTL and SYSDECCTLd1 >libnraries as well as the MSAP$DECVTL.TLB files.  > L >By the time it tries to submit the file to print, is there a way to provideJ >better tracing for the process so that I woudl know what file it tries toR >unseccessfully access ? (and hopefully what key value is used to find a record ?)  K Have a look into the directory pointed to by the logical MSAP$SPOOL_DIR. Inv
 addition try:     $ ADMIN/MSA/    MSA$MANAGER> SHO PRINTER "your_printer"/FULLs0 This will list the name of the receiver process.    $ SHO SYSTEMlC will display all processes and the PID of the receiver in question.  Then do:;    $ SHO DEVICE/FILES/OUT=temp.file device_of_MSA_spool_dirn-    $ SEARCH temp.file pid_of_receiver_processo1 Try to load the files into an edito or copy them.t  	 Good luckb    Christoph Gartmann   H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2002 20:31:55 GMT# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)n0 Subject: Re: printing of string descriptors in C* Message-ID: <auqafr$h2e$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  S In article <v0vekd1kdc5017@corp.supernews.com>, Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:b* :Stanley F. Quayle <stan@stanq.com> wrote:* :: On 28 Dec 2002 at 2:23, JF Mezei wrote:E ::> Is there a magic trick to print a string descriptor with printf ?s :oH :: printf ("%*.*s", dx.dsc$w_length, dx.dsc$w_length, dx.dsc$a_pointer); : # :: That does it every time...   :-)n :t+ :%.* is more elegant an efficient than %*.*e  E   Arguably simpler and more elegant than using the standard C libraryvD   to reference a non-C construct would be a native OpenVMS RTL call:       lib$put_output( &dx );    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comr   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:48:29 -0600 % From: "-Andy-" <acs@fcgnet.works.net>o Subject: Re: rrd40> Message-ID: <Xns92F5635EE103Dacsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>  A "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> enlightened us witho7 news:auqkug$f6n$1@helle.btinternet.com on 30 Dec 2002: f   > Hi,s > A > I own one! I don't know why I'm proud of that but there you go.n  o > . > mhr <mreilly36@comcast.net> wrote in message, > news:qwOdndwCLseGpJOjXTWcoQ@comcast.com...@ >> looking for a cartridge (cd-rom) holder for a RRd-40 da cdrom  >> for a vaxstation 3100 76 sfx.  n  7 Gee... I have one also.... attached to a 4000VLC but I h' don't have any spare CD holders. Sorry.r   -Andy-   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 09:32:37 -0800& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) Subject: Re: rrd40= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0212310932.2e1be978@posting.google.com>c  F Sorry, no spare caddies here either.  We have one external RRD40 stillF in use on a VS3100-30.  It also doesn't show up at the console prompt,C but if you do an INIT and UNJAM it sometimes shows up.  If not then D BOOT DKB400 (substitute the proper drive name for yours) always madeD it show up.  If it hadn't shown up in console then VMS could not seeD it either, but once it was available to the console, VMS worked fine with it.   Rich Jordan   j "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> wrote in message news:<auqkug$f6n$1@helle.btinternet.com>... > Hi,  > J > I own one! I don't know why I'm proud of that but there you go. It is myM > only CD drive on my VAX 4000 and for some strange reason can't be seen fromm > the chevron prompt.o   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 17:58:18 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: rrd405 Message-ID: <auslrq$a3s7a$3@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>-  = In article <cc5619f2.0212310932.2e1be978@posting.google.com>,E) 	jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) writes::H > Sorry, no spare caddies here either.  We have one external RRD40 stillH > in use on a VS3100-30.  It also doesn't show up at the console prompt,E > but if you do an INIT and UNJAM it sometimes shows up.  If not then F > BOOT DKB400 (substitute the proper drive name for yours) always madeF > it show up.  If it hadn't shown up in console then VMS could not seeF > it either, but once it was available to the console, VMS worked fine
 > with it. >   ? Not familiar with that particular CD drive, but I have seen two @ different caddies used with DEC drives.  In any case, I may haveA one.  Is this the one that was also common on old PC CDROM's?? OrX@ a much thiner and less common kind??  If the first, I am certainA I can come up with one you can have.  If the latter, I won't knowoB til I get back to work on thursday.  I have never had a drive thatA used them, but I think there may have been a few caddies in a box / of old VMS CD's I got from the datacenter here.-   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   9   ------------------------------   Date: 30 Dec 2002 21:58:45 GMT# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)t Subject: Re: rrd40* Message-ID: <auqfil$h2e$5@web1.cup.hp.com>  V In article <qwOdndwCLseGpJOjXTWcoQ@comcast.com>, "mhr" <mreilly36@comcast.net> writes:D :looking for a cartridge (cd-rom) holder for a RRd-40 da cdrom for a :vaxstation 3100 76 sfx.  J   I'd tend to look for a (used) replacement CD-ROM drive, such as an RRD42H   or RRD43 or later.  These drives are easier to use as there is no needH   for one of the "antlers" CD caddies (that which you presently seek; noJ   pun intended), and the newer drives are faster and more capable than the
   RRD40.    G   Replacement of the whole drive is potentially as cheap as finding andn8   acquiring the replacement "antlers" caddy, too.  :-)    E   If you want to go for a wholesale hardware upgrade, a new or a usedkG   Plextor PlexWriter 121032S SCSI CD-R drive has a reasonable chance ofeI   working nicely in this configuration, and this or other CD-R drive will H   have other useful capabiliites beyond reading CD media.   (I have usedH   the Plextor PlexWriter 121032S successfully on a VAXstation 4000 modelI   60 SCSI bus, though I have not tried it on the VAXstation 3100 series.)e  F   On an unrelated note, I will assume you are aware of the console ROMH   bootstrap limitations for the system disk; on the limits of the systemG   disk capacity for the VAXstation 3100 series.  If not, please see the    OpenVMS FAQ for details.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:44:35 +1100IB From: "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@noooo_spammm_optusnet.com.au>+ Subject: Re: SMP Alphaserver 4100 CPUBAD??? < Message-ID: <3e10b030$0$27994$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>  . you could also try loading a newer firmware cd, which will put them all on the same revision  
 a good start.r   kiwi    8 "Veli Krkk" <Veli.Korkko@kolumbus.fi> wrote in message% news:3E0DE346.49BBB8AF@kolumbus.fi...9 > Steve Fournier wrote:S > > H > > i have recently acquired a 4 processor 4100 as a backup to an online
 productionI > > system.  all 4 processors are supposedly 400 Mhz B3004-AA processers.  the J > > first 3 have the part number 36-46665-06-A01 printed on them.  the 4th has I > > 36-46665-06-B01 on it.  unfortunately, on VMS 6.2-1H3 bootup, the 4th 	 processorcH > > refuses to start with SMP-F-CPUBAD message because it is a different	 type thaneK > > the primary one.  does anyone know the differences here?  can i get allO 4 cpus > > running in VMS?A >sD > There are two types of 400MHZ cpus for As4100, namely B3004-AA and > B3005-AA.oJ > But it is unclear if you really have here 3 cpu of type B3004-AA and one	 > of typeqG > B3005-AA or just four B3004-AA of which three are rev A01 and last is 
 > rev B01. >sI > Anyway, you might need ALPCPU1601_071 patch, this patch applies to V6.2S > also.  >O > _velip >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:26:41 +0200 @ From: Veli =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=F6rkk=F6?= <Veli.Korkko@kolumbus.fi>+ Subject: Re: SMP Alphaserver 4100 CPUBAD???C+ Message-ID: <3E11C541.99A7B07D@kolumbus.fi>o   Antony Wardle wrote: > 0 > you could also try loading a newer firmware cd. > which will put them all on the same revision >  > a good start.l >  > kiwi >   C well, on MOST alphaservers that I know, updatable firmware does notG reside on actualG cpu modules. And 4x00 is definately one of those where firmware resides  on MLB, notoH on the CPU modules so your system has automatically always same firmware for all. cpus.n  A GS60, GS140, AS8200, AS8400 are definately systems where firmware  resides on theE cpu modules and e.q. installing one new cpu you may actually need to o  , 1) upgrade to a recent level existing system  ; 2) remove all cpus, install the new one and upgrade it alsoo  E 3) install all modules and configure the system otherwise, i.e. checkV all env settings and so on  H True, one may need recent firmware to support e.q. the different cpu but in thismC case they all share automatically the same version. For AS4x00 the l
 latest is/wase V6.0-xx.   _velib   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:45:09 -0500u0 From: "John L Ferguson" <John.L.Ferguson@hp.com>+ Subject: Special offer for Attunity Connect 0 Message-ID: <qJkQ9.8$Px.568417@news.cpqcorp.net>  I Until March 31, 2003, Attunity is offering a 30% discount on all Attunity K Connect software not part of the Attunity Connect "On Platform" package forwH OpenVMS Alpha. If additional software is purchased, the Attunity Connect0 Server Engine is included at no additional cost.   For more information seeL http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/attunity/ConnectOffer.htm l.   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 02:16:50 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: Unix and Wintel are not the only games in town ( was Re: OT: Whoa! Is Sun aio- Message-ID: <871y3zid7x.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   N winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:  A > I was not aware that they'd dumped VMS, although I'd heard thatcF > they'd started deacquisitioning VAXes.  I have no information _that_E > they're replacing VMS with anything, much less with _what_.  Do youQ > know something?i   Sigh...i  > 1) Running the FABs is not the only thing you can use VMS for.  F 2) The SW vendor for Intels FAB SCADA systems anounced that they whereH    porting the SW etc from Vax to the lardball. That was posted here, orF    the was a reference to the anouncment at one of the usual suspects.     -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.g@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 30 Dec 2002 22:52:20 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth- Message-ID: <8765tbimor.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  6 Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> writes:  C > VAX interrupt handling was also really "heavy" -- benchmarks with B > the same I/O device configurations showed that 11/780s could not@ > handle as many interactive users or SCADA device interrupts asF > 11/70s and other I/O was no faster on the 11/780. This situation did? > not get better until terminal servers and LAT were available.y  E Not quite. All the vaxen except the 780 used direct vectors, and that D improved things a good bit. The biggest problems where the DWUBA andF the horrific overhead of the DZ-11 for terminals. All the disadvantgesC of a 1 line per controller controller plus all the disadvantages ofdG multiple lines per controller :( A new version of the DH did not happencD till a lot later, in the DHV, then the DHU after VMS engineering had beaten it up somewhat.  D Also, MSCP controllers could run with very few interupts under load,G just as LAT overhead drops as load goes up. But CI780s where not cheap,o. and UDA50s again invoked the curse of the DWs.   -- r< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.'@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:09:53 -0000i$ From: "David Wade" <g8mqw@yahoo.com>& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth4 Message-ID: <aurtu2$9ee10$1@ID-40235.news.dfncis.de>  B "William Robison" <william-robison@uiowa.edu.com> wrote in message' news:3E10CF54.7CE336F9@uiowa.edu.com...l >  >i > Jonathan Stone wrote:c > >y1 > > In article <8765tbimor.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,t2 > > Paul Repacholi  <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:; > > >Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> writes:v > > > H > > >> VAX interrupt handling was also really "heavy" -- benchmarks withG > > >> the same I/O device configurations showed that 11/780s could notmE > > >> handle as many interactive users or SCADA device interrupts as K > > >> 11/70s and other I/O was no faster on the 11/780. This situation didrD > > >> not get better until terminal servers and LAT were available. > > >sJ > > >Not quite. All the vaxen except the 780 used direct vectors, and that& > > >improved things a good bit. [...] > >iA > > Nitpick: I'm fairly sure 11/780s, 8600s and 8560s with UBA780dE > > SBI-to-Unibus adaptors all suffered the indirect-interrupt-vectory > > lossage for Unibus devices.  > >uI > > You seem to've confused the UBA780 with the DWBUA, which (unless I amlF > > horribly mistaken) was the VaxBI-to-Unibus adaptor. ``Curse'' is a  > > pretty apt description, tho. > > - > > >The biggest problems where the DWUBA andoK > > >the horrific overhead of the DZ-11 for terminals. All the disadvantgesmH > > >of a 1 line per controller controller plus all the disadvantages ofL > > >multiple lines per controller :( A new version of the DH did not happenI > > >till a lot later, in the DHV, then the DHU after VMS engineering hada > > >beaten it up somewhat.  > >nG > > Which was why Able sold so many, uh, was it VMZ-32s?  Field ServiceaD > > would even put them on DEC maintenance, at least in Australasia. > >c >o > Heh...B > Field Service would put almost anything under maintenance if yoyB > threw a little extra $$$'s at them and mentioned the word SUN... >eC > (Actually get 'em to take on a set of Pertec 7 tracks that lookedtE > a lot like TU45's with a 3rd. party TM10 emulation...  By that time0E > field service tracked down 1 head for each drive prior to acceptingR! > them on the sevice contract...)b > :-)c > -Willy  K I remember the reverse happening to us in the UK. On our IBM we had Storage>I Tech 3380 (I think that was the number) cartridge tape drives, but on thewC VAX8600 we could only have Digital Tape Drives (these were actuallytK re-badged IBM drives) as the would not support the whole machine otherwise.n   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 07:29:48 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) & Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth3 Message-ID: <VNHZCHV1lxm3@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  [ In article <aurtu2$9ee10$1@ID-40235.news.dfncis.de>, "David Wade" <g8mqw@yahoo.com> writes:e > M > I remember the reverse happening to us in the UK. On our IBM we had Storage K > Tech 3380 (I think that was the number) cartridge tape drives, but on the0E > VAX8600 we could only have Digital Tape Drives (these were actuallyaM > re-badged IBM drives) as the would not support the whole machine otherwise.,  J    We had STC drives on our 2050 and on an 11/780, sold by and maintained F    by DEC.  6250 BPI was a requirement and DEC didn't have TU78's yet.   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 23:11:22 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>& Subject: Re: vax6k.openecs.org rebirth- Message-ID: <87fzsedy05.fsf@prep.synonet.com>m  = koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:g  X > In article <aun5js$7u1@web.eng.baileynm.com>, peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes:  SC > > Well, VMS was also a fairly "heavy" OS... but if you eliminatedD@ > > the OS differences the VAX was still not that impressive. AtE > > Berkeley we had both 11/70s and 11/780s running BSD UNIX, and theuF > > 11/70s could handle about twice as many users even though they had > > less core.  rF >    OK, I've seen third party core for 11/70's, but who made core for >    VAXen?  8-)  B Core? or memory? I can't remember ever hearing of Core memory on aE Vax.  Or 3rd party core for a 11/70. CDC and Memorex did 11/70 memoryeE boxes, I have a CDC, and I'd guess Memorex may have done 780 memoriesh as well.      -- ,< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.>@                                              West Australia 6076* comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:31:35 +0100e% From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@yahoo.de>u' Subject: Re: VMS 7.2-1, patches and DCEu, Message-ID: <3e11d4f5$1@news.swissonline.ch>   Hi Arne,   >'' > Reconfiguring DCE solved the problem., >   L Should not be necessary. We could not afford to solve our configuration thisG way. Our DCE 1.5 configuration lasts for more then 6 years now, withoute/ reconfig. What do you not unterstand about DCE?t       best regards   Jakobd   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:48:18 -0600>% From: "vmstroubles" <jmmyre@wisc.edu>i Subject: VMS troublest/ Message-ID: <v13cqde45bck56@corp.supernews.com>R  I Recently at my place of employment the main hard disc that held our os onoH the Microvax 2 that we have died and we replaced it with a new one.  OurL problem is that currently we have a full backup of the previous disc that weI need to get onto the new disc.  Unfortunatly the firmware on the vax will K not recognize this new disc.  The /SHOW DEVICES command does not even work,cI it returns an 18 INV DGT (invalid digit) error.  I have been able to boot I off a stand alone bootable TK50 tape and run the backup/image mua0: dua0:=K command.  This is where it tells me that there is no hard disc however.  IfrB anyone could help me out it would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.   Joe Myre jmmyre@wisc.eduv   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:20:52 -0700r+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>  Subject: Re: VMS troublesw' Message-ID: <3E11B5D4.7070401@MMaz.com>e   vmstroubles wrote:  J >Recently at my place of employment the main hard disc that held our os onI >the Microvax 2 that we have died and we replaced it with a new one.  OurnM >problem is that currently we have a full backup of the previous disc that wevJ >need to get onto the new disc.  Unfortunatly the firmware on the vax willL >not recognize this new disc.  The /SHOW DEVICES command does not even work,J >it returns an 18 INV DGT (invalid digit) error.  I have been able to bootJ >off a stand alone bootable TK50 tape and run the backup/image mua0: dua0:L >command.  This is where it tells me that there is no hard disc however.  IfC >anyone could help me out it would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.n >sG You said nothing about the type of disk subsystem you had installed in tD the MV2, so one can only presume that it is the RD5x drives...  You G stated that you purchased a new one, well these haven't been built for II years, so the real question is what did you buy and if you did acquire a l> used replacement RD5x drive, it sounds like it might be DOA...   Barrye   > 	 >Joe Myreo >jmmyre@wisc.edu >d >n >b >  o >i   -- a  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:24:51 -0600a% From: "vmstroubles" <jmmyre@wisc.edu>u Subject: Re: VMS troubleso/ Message-ID: <v13eur1mdqqq07@corp.supernews.com>t  F You said nothing about the type of disk subsystem you had installed inC the MV2, so one can only presume that it is the RD5x drives...  You F stated that you purchased a new one, well these haven't been built forH years, so the real question is what did you buy and if you did acquire aA used replacement RD5x drive, it sounds like it might be DOA......c   Barryi  F This is actually the first time i have worked on this vax.  The personJ before me apparently just took the drive that was purchased and physicallyH put it in the machine and hooked it up.  The only guarentee right now isF that it has power because on random intervals the activity light on itL starts to work.  I have ran some diagnostics softare now and it has reportedH that the RQDXA winchester/disc controller has been disabled so if anyone2 knows how to get that working that would be great.   Joe Myre jmmyre@wisc.edu5   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:53:39 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@MMaz.com>e Subject: Re: VMS troublesd' Message-ID: <3E11BD83.6080005@MMaz.com>e   vmstroubles wrote:  G >You said nothing about the type of disk subsystem you had installed ineD >the MV2, so one can only presume that it is the RD5x drives...  YouG >stated that you purchased a new one, well these haven't been built for I >years, so the real question is what did you buy and if you did acquire aeB >used replacement RD5x drive, it sounds like it might be DOA...... >n >Barry >lG >This is actually the first time i have worked on this vax.  The personoK >before me apparently just took the drive that was purchased and physicallyC* >put it in the machine and hooked it up.   >dI That is probably the beginning of your problem, presuming that they knew uD nothing of VAX systems...  No off-the-shelf drive will work on that 3 system with a RQDX3 controller, ONLY RD5x drives...m    >The only guarentee right now isG >that it has power because on random intervals the activity light on itsM >starts to work.  I have ran some diagnostics softare now and it has reportedeI >that the RQDXA winchester/disc controller has been disabled so if anyonef3 >knows how to get that working that would be great.i >pF Pull the drive that was installed and determine what type of drive it I is, because if it isn't a Digital RD52 or RD53, it will not work and you  F are wasting your time.  This is all, of course, presuming that you do F not have a SCSI controller in that system, something like the old CMD F which was a singled ended SCSI adapter that could barely support tape  let alone disk...h   Barry    --    @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:03:04 -0600i% From: "vmstroubles" <jmmyre@wisc.edu>a Subject: Re: VMS troublesv/ Message-ID: <v13h6g4e76k709@corp.supernews.com>,  K Well the hard disc as it turns out is a Maxtor XT2190 (an RD54-A).  I stilln: don't know how to get the RQDXA controller enabled though.   Joen   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 16:54:49 GMT, From: bill@gw5.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS troubles 5 Message-ID: <ausi4p$a11gk$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>B  / In article <v13h6g4e76k709@corp.supernews.com>, ( 	"vmstroubles" <jmmyre@wisc.edu> writes:M > Well the hard disc as it turns out is a Maxtor XT2190 (an RD54-A).  I still-< > don't know how to get the RQDXA controller enabled though. >   A A couple of things I can think of.  First, none of my controllerst> say RQDXA on them.  Are we sure this is an RQDX3 as opposed to= something earlier that would not support the RD54??  Next, ifsA the message he is getting is about the controller being disabled,t< can we be sure it was the disk that packed it in and not the@ controller??  And lastly, as this is a MicroVAX II, I doubt that@ the disk has been formated yet.  I would expect it unlikely thatA it came from the re-seller pre-formated for a MicroVAX II runningo an RQDX3 controller.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   h   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:58:14 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: VMS troublesiH Message-ID: <G0kQ9.106026$E_.55606@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  0 "vmstroubles" <jmmyre@wisc.edu> wrote in message) news:v13h6g4e76k709@corp.supernews.com...sD > Well the hard disc as it turns out is a Maxtor XT2190 (an RD54-A). I still < > don't know how to get the RQDXA controller enabled though.  F Are you saying that the drive has a Digital sticker on it with  RD54-A@ printed on it, or are you saying that it uis a Maxtor drive with@ characteristics *similar* to those of an RD54-A? There is a huge7 difference in the usability of this drive in that case.t  E Digital drives of that vintage had specific firmware that enabled thewD controllers to recognize the drives correctly. I used to use ToshibaB MK538FB scsi drives in VAXstations, and each drive had to have itsF firmware physically replaced on a socketed chip which Toshiba was kindB enough to supply. Otherwise the drives would not be usable as boot devices.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 17:17:18 GMTl# From: nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net  Subject: Re: VMS troubless7 Message-ID: <3e11cfd3.3836591887@news.bellatlantic.net>i  7 On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:53:39 -0700, "Barry Treahy, Jr."l <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote:  E  >That is probably the beginning of your problem, presuming that theyh knew iE >nothing of VAX systems...  No off-the-shelf drive will work on that o4 >system with a RQDX3 controller, ONLY RD5x drives...  B WRONG!  The problem is any off the shelf MFM drive will need to beF formatted, most don't have that capability ( I use a PDP-11 with RQDX3D and XXDP formatter).  If it was formatted for a PC (very likely ) it' might work and then again it might not.s  H >>Pull the drive that was installed and determine what type of drive it J >is, because if it isn't a Digital RD52 or RD53, it will not work and you G >are wasting your time.  This is all, of course, presuming that you do  G >not have a SCSI controller in that system, something like the old CMD oG >which was a singled ended SCSI adapter that could barely support tape   >let alone disk...  D Currently using a CMD to support three 1.2gb drives, works just fine> in the MVII.  Wish I had a few more of them (CMD or other scsi controller).   Allison    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:38:26 -0600 % From: "vmstroubles" <jmmyre@wisc.edu>a Subject: Re: VMS troublesd/ Message-ID: <v13mp9oq2amiee@corp.supernews.com>t  I To update, its is a maxtor with RD54-A printed on it so no it is not fromeH digital.  My diagnostic software left from the people that worked on theL machine before myself listed the drive controller as a RQDXA, although afterH looking around on the net for a while I think that it is in actuality an= RQDX3.  The RD54 hard disc is also not formated as predicted.e   Joe-   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 18:09:52 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Subject: Re: VMS troubles.5 Message-ID: <ausmhg$a3s7a$6@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>r  7 In article <3e11cfd3.3836591887@news.bellatlantic.net>,y& 	nospam@nouce.bellatlantic.net writes:9 > On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:53:39 -0700, "Barry Treahy, Jr."B > <Treahy@MMaz.com> wrote: > F > >That is probably the beginning of your problem, presuming that they > knew cF >>nothing of VAX systems...  No off-the-shelf drive will work on that 5 >>system with a RQDX3 controller, ONLY RD5x drives...e > D > WRONG!  The problem is any off the shelf MFM drive will need to beH > formatted, most don't have that capability ( I use a PDP-11 with RQDX3F > and XXDP formatter).  If it was formatted for a PC (very likely ) it) > might work and then again it might not.h  C I don't even think it's a matter of might.  I am relatively certaineB if it wan't formated on a VAX running and RQDX3 controller it willB not work on another VAX with an RQDX3.  I am not even sure you canC move them formatted from a PODP11 to a VAX, but I could be wrong ons that.  I've never tried.   > I >>>Pull the drive that was installed and determine what type of drive it iK >>is, because if it isn't a Digital RD52 or RD53, it will not work and you BH >>are wasting your time.  This is all, of course, presuming that you do H >>not have a SCSI controller in that system, something like the old CMD H >>which was a singled ended SCSI adapter that could barely support tape  >>let alone disk...  > F > Currently using a CMD to support three 1.2gb drives, works just fine@ > in the MVII.  Wish I had a few more of them (CMD or other scsi > controller).  	 Me too!!!n   bill   -- RJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:47:25 -0400.0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: VMS troublesr/ Message-ID: <3E11D828.AAED5DA7@vl.videotron.ca>t   vmstroubles wrote: > M > Well the hard disc as it turns out is a Maxtor XT2190 (an RD54-A).  I still:< > don't know how to get the RQDXA controller enabled though.    0 What was the disk before ? Was it also an RD54 ?  K Do you have the Microvax II diagnostics tape ? If so, take the time to bootwL from it (boot it before you go home for new years, and when you return a fewA days later, it should have finished booting. That will give you aGM configuration of your system, and more importantly, allows you to start a lows$ level format of your new disk drive.  G The console for micovax II is useless for showing configuration of yourd( machine, you need the diagnostics tape.   L Are you sure the drive was properly installed ?  The plugs in the back of RDM drives are fairly idiot-proof, but perhaps they are not fully inserted ? WereaK there changes made in the RQDX3 board inside the machine ? or did they justo swap the drives ?k   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 11:10:38 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)gG Subject: Re: Volume Shadowing (was: Re: Hello Kieth Parris... pls help)e3 Message-ID: <Wh9AbAyC0ZL9@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  P In article <auqd2k$h2e$3@web1.cup.hp.com>, hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: > c > In article <9M0HHwPwABrq@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:e > @ > :	Last I checked shadowing dissimilar devices was/is post 7.3. > D >   So long as the disks have the same number of blocks, they can beA >   shadowed with most any current OpenVMS release configured and'D >   licensed for volume shadowing -- the long-standing disk geometryC >   restrictions have been lifted in current OpenVMS releases.  SeeiF >   the current OpenVMS release documentation and also see the OpenVMS2 >   V7.2-*-vintage shadowing ECO kits for details. >   : 	Hmmm... hadn't thought to apply it.  Shadowing dissimilar; 	devices may be a redundant thing.  What I was referring tos@ 	was physical shadowset members with differing LBN counts, using; 	the smaller of the two.  You could then dismount/mount and  	expand to the larger.  > 	From what you describe, you could for instance... take an EVA= 	drive of same large size, init for largest possible size andiB 	then set the size to match an HSG80 18 GByte drive block count.  @ 	Add it as a shadow member.  Copy completes dismount HSG80.  SetD 	the volume to an HSG80 36 GByte drive block count.  Add it and let 4 	it copy.  You now have just expanded the shadowset.   	Something like this:D  9 		$ init/system/largest $1$dga101:  shadlabel ! EVA driveC= 		$ set volume/size=36131001  $1$dga101:	! 18 GB HSG80 blockso 		$ ! Begin copy7 		$ mount dsa10 /shadow=($1$dga7:,$1$dga101:) shadlabel- 		$ !  		$ ! Copy completes 		$ !-6 		$ dismount $1$dga7:   		! Dismount 18 GB HSG80 drive@ 		$ set volume/size=72130004  $1$dga101: ! 36 GB HSG80 block cnt% 		$ ! dga8 is an HSG80 36 GByte drive 7 		$ mount dsa10 /shadow=($1$dga101:,$1$dga8:) shadlabelt   	That is sweet. . .   > 	One question.  Why isn't block granularity in EVA management?E 	It would have made things a bit easier and less slop.  For instance,m> 	you may have to create a 37 GByte EVA drive if the LBN countsA 	aren't equal 36<->36.  With volume expansion coming to VMS, LBN :; 	granularity in storage is not a big deal?  That's my take.$ 	eD >   On-line volume currently expansion targets OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-2. > G >   Disk volumes will have to be pre-configured for the largest volume  F >   size to be permitted, but the underlying storage can then be grownH >   -- clearly this is not the best solution to growing the disk volumesJ >   over time.  You and I and others would like the volume data structuresI >   to provide for dynamic expansion.  This approach is, however, still ay% >   workable solution to the problem.e >   @ 	I'm not clear as to what you are saying in the above paragraph.> 	How could it be done better?  You wouldn't need a /LARGEST at8 	the outset?  That to me is a minor consideration today.  H >   Details on this -- if the capability is incorporated and documented,F >   of course -- will be included in the OpenVMS V7.3-2 documentation.  < 	Meaning, it may show up as a VOLSHAD kit if the door closes 	on 7.3-2 baseline, I take it.   > D >   As was stated previously, OpenVMS host-based volume shadowing isC >   seeing on-going engineering support and on-going development --X >   geometry-related changes,   9 	Dissimilar shadowing?  This would help migrate to largerc& 	disks easy and doable with older kit.  # >   the merge prioritization work, :  + 	With write bitmaps and multiple nodes, you < 	have a 1 in n chance the node that crashed being the master 	to m volumes.  E 	Here's an idea that might? pan out in certain situations, especiallyf 	in a Galaxy with SMCI.o  > 	Write bitmaps would run in single message mode.  Make it haveC 	VOLSHAD properties (if it doesn't) whereby write bitmap completione> 	status in single message mode is default behavior (i.e. writeA 	completion doesn't occur until write hits bitmap and storage).  sI 	If you have to switch to buffered-message mode, than all bets are off.  1  ? 	The idea would be if a node crashes, all write bitmaps contain B 	outstanding writes and act as a write history log.  The node that@ 	crashed of course may/would be mastering a subset of shadowsets9 	out there that would have to have their controller basedt 	write history log walked.  F 	Maybe in a Shared Everything Galaxy of 16 - 4 CPU members you have a B 	1 in 16 chance of having a drive that needs something other than & 	"in memory mini-merge" to take place.  ; 	This would be a big help for folks with foreign storage orn? 	storage that *supposedly* won't get (or fairer: isn't planned) ; 	mini-merge capabilities.  At least a subset are undergoing   	full merge when a node crashes.  ; 	Anyhow... I'm sure you guys are having a lot of fun comingh 	up with great stuff.-     >   mini-merge< >   and mini-copy, the on-line volume expansion work, etc.   > D >   There are no plans to discontinue the host-based volume product,B >   and no plans to slow the engineering work.  There are plans toC >   port shadowing to Itanium, as descrined in the OpenVMS roadmap.: >    	Cool beans.   				Robe   ------------------------------   Date: 31 Dec 2002 12:31:53 GMT/ From: Thomas Dickey <dickey@saltmine.radix.net> : Subject: Re: VT220/320 Terminal emulator for Linux client?* Message-ID: <aus2np$rf6$1@news1.radix.net>   pfr <preilly@mail.com> wrote: L > Can anyone reccomend a good free terminal emulator for a Linux client whenG > connecting to a Vax?  TeraTerm has worked well when connecting from a H > Windows client to a Vax, but the standard telnet client in Linux seems > only able to emulate a VT100.t  9 The XFree86 xterm supports ANSI color and VT220 emulation  There's an faq atn1 	http://invisible-island.net/xterm/xterm.faq.htmlm! 	ftp://invisible-island.net/xterma   -- a= Thomas E. Dickey <dickey@radix.net> <dickey@herndon4.his.com>  http://dickey.his.como ftp://dickey.his.com   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2002 07:33:51 -0600; From: koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) : Subject: Re: VT220/320 Terminal emulator for Linux client?3 Message-ID: <WBiE0uHMso5J@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  V In article <pan.2002.12.31.05.03.38.207913@mail.com>, "pfr" <preilly@mail.com> writes:L > Can anyone reccomend a good free terminal emulator for a Linux client whenG > connecting to a Vax?  TeraTerm has worked well when connecting from a(H > Windows client to a Vax, but the standard telnet client in Linux seems > only able to emulate a VT100.J  F    I assume that's /usr/bin/X11/xterm, or some such.  Sadly it's VT100G    emulation is the only thing I find I can count on in the UNIX world.0G    DEC, of course, shipped VT300 emulation with DECwindows for both VMShD    and UNIX, but most other vendors don't.  There doesn't seem to be0    a big call for it in the Linux world, either.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.724 ************************