0 INFO-VAX	Sun, 03 Feb 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 66      Contents:& Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"!& Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"!& Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"!) Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive ) Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive  Re: Asynchonous clustering Re: Asynchonous clusteringD Re: Be prepared, Encompass is using SBA to SPAM folks for Membership* Re: compaq logo on DECwindows login screen# Re: Default terminal printer in CDE # Re: Default terminal printer in CDE  RE: FREEWARE 5.0 RE: FREEWARE 5.0! Re: I/O Performance on Alpha 4100 8 Increasing free global pages/sections on OpenVMS 7.3/VAX< Re: Increasing free global pages/sections on OpenVMS 7.3/VAX< Re: Increasing free global pages/sections on OpenVMS 7.3/VAX< Re: Increasing free global pages/sections on OpenVMS 7.3/VAX< Re: Increasing free global pages/sections on OpenVMS 7.3/VAX Re: LICENSE/CHARGEP Re: OT: Language (was:Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The dem* Re: RTR (was: Compaq financial conference)	 RE: tcpip 	 Re: tcpip  Re: VMS Certification 6 Re: Where does VMS fit in here? (Was Re: HP admits...)P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The       demise       oP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The      demise       ofP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      comP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      com  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2002 05:13:13 -0800 ) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) / Subject: Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"! = Message-ID: <55f85d77.0202030513.57d6601b@posting.google.com>   ) system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message  I > The probing of every byte is not necessary.  Only the page in which the H > byte resides.  Some simple math can determine which byte would requireJ > a probe of the page to see if it is accessible.  The extra little bit ofJ > math is far less costly than the probe of every byte -- especially on an2 > Alpha where the probe is a PALcode routine call.  C You may be able to work out which page the starting address resides B in - it might be the last byte of that page (sort of like when youE need to restore a file from a backup and it is _ALWAYS_ the last file  on the tape :-)   F The user provided an address that might (or might not) point to memoryE the user has access to. At that address there might (or might not) be D a string that is null terminated, it might (or might not) cross page boundaries.     Actually, it is worse than that:  D "The PROBE instruction checks the read or write accessibility of the@ first and last byte specified by the base address and the signedE offset; the bytes in between are not checked.". "System software must B check all pages between the two bytes if they are to be accessed".  A The DEC C RTL documentation backs up this information. This might = (or might not) suggest OpenVMS does this for you - I doubt it 
 does (???)  A In any case, even if you know the length of the string you better ? check it out. I guess everything is full of holes if you go far  enough.   > Strings in C (or any) context will very likely be shorter than@ a page and most likely shorter than a pagelet. Finding a page to? fail and working back might (or might not) be faster. It may be = better working out what the average length of a string passed = to your routine should be and work in chunks sized from that.   C The "I only accept strings up to size <blah> and won't be touching, D checking, or otherwise going anywhere near portions that exceed that' length" approach may also work for you.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2002 06:07:22 -0800 ) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) / Subject: Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"! < Message-ID: <55f85d77.0202030607.7d253c5@posting.google.com>  _ "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote in message news:<3C5BE5CB.1060104@qsl.network>...  > Martin Vorlaender wrote: > G > > If I wanted to read up on the __PAL_* stuff: where would I find it?  >   > See the Compaq C User's Guide.  C The "Alpha AXP Architecture Reference Manual" is also good reading.    I got mine from Amazon.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2002 07:10:21 -0800 ) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) / Subject: Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"! < Message-ID: <55f85d77.0202030710.b250f4d@posting.google.com>  e "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotmail.c0m> wrote in message news:<a3gud6$npi$1@knossos.btinternet.com>... > > **      __PAL_READ_PS built-in has type uint64 (not directly  E Bugger me! - I knew someone would pick me up on that about 10 seconds  after I posted.   L > . Page protection and $setprt work on CPU specifically sized pages and not
 > pagelets   Pass.   J (I'd have to look at the source listings) - documentation specifies pages.  H > . PROBEx only checks the protection on the first and last pages in the > range. (Page or Pagelet?)   ! Yup (see earlier posting). Pages.   M > . If my address and length span more than two pages then I can't assume the E > middle one has the same protection or is accessible by the mode I'm  > checking.   6 Correct, the documentation sez you cannot assume this.  N > . EXE$PROBEx checks *every* page (pagelet?) in a longword range of addresses   Pass.   * (I'd have to look at the source listings).   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:23:07 +0000 1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk> 2 Subject: Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive6 Message-ID: <3C5D0F8B.2C448B69@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  
 Hi Martin,E There is a TZ885 which is a 40GB drive with a 5 slot loader (giving a G maximum of 200GB unattended backup capacity).  I've a feeling that this < was actually an HP drive though rather than a Quantum one...   Steve.     Martin Hunt wrote:E > OK, I've got MLU sort of working - I was able to load a tape from a B > particular slot. But some of the other commands don't work - MLUG > VERIFY gives the message "%MLU-F-BUGCHECK, internal inconsistancy". I C > suspect that I haven't define the correct device type. There is a E > logical that I have set (MLU_devnam) which I have set to TZ857, but F > I'm not sure if this is correct. VMS knows it as a Quantum DLT4500 - > it is a 5 tape stacker. 7 > Has this got an equivalent Digital/Compaq model name?  >    --  G "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent like E a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath. A Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'" % 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:45:34 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)2 Subject: Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape driveK Message-ID: <rdeininger-0302021045340001@1cust220.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   B In article <3C5D0F8B.2C448B69@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>, Steve Reece& <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk> wrote:   >Hi Martin, F >There is a TZ885 which is a 40GB drive with a 5 slot loader (giving aH >maximum of 200GB unattended backup capacity).  I've a feeling that this= >was actually an HP drive though rather than a Quantum one...   J AFAIK, Quantum makes the innards for all the DLT drives.  (At least, sinceI they bought the product line from Digital.)  Firmware likely varies a bit   in the various re-badged drives.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:40:16 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)# Subject: Re: Asynchonous clustering K Message-ID: <rdeininger-0302021040170001@1cust220.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   M In article <a3hjmh$a81$1@news1.xs4all.nl>, William <wilby98@yahoo.com> wrote:   4 >I have just acquired VMS 5.5-2 on tape which I hope7 >to load into my MicroVAX II. My MVII is encased within 5 >the BA23 (rackmount) enclosure and will have an RD54 ' >disk (159MB 5.25) and TK50 tape drive.  > 9 >Although I will leave out DECwindows on the install I am 9 >still concerned about lack of disk space. Since no other 4 >hardware will fit in the enclosure I am considering1 >setting up a cluster with my VAXstation 3100 and 1 >MicroVAX 3100-30. Since the MVII lacks the DELQA 1 >ethernet card I would like to connect through an * >asynchronous line. Will this work? If so,/ >will the "clustering" overcome the MVII's lack - >of disk space and enable paging to the disks 5 >on the other platforms? Will the other CPU's kick in 2 >when the MVII's CPU gets overburdened? What other1 >features will clustering offer with this version  >of VMS?  F See the OpenVMS clustering manual for info about the capabilities of aA cluster.  The main points haven't changed between V5.5-2 and now.   5 You should consider moving up to a recent VMS relese.   E Clustering and DECnet are separate things.  Asyncronous DECnet is/was > supported; asyncronous lines have never been used as a cluster
 interconnect.   H You can likely scrounge up a DELQA for the MVII, and then you can make aH cluster.  If disk space is a serious problem, you can make the MVII bootA as a cluster satellite from one of the other systems.  For decent J performance, put the page and swap files on the local disk, and let the OS& remain on the system disk in the 3100.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:57:03 +0000 1 From: Robert DiRosario <rdirosario@starpower.net> # Subject: Re: Asynchonous clustering - Message-ID: <3C5D177F.2870543E@starpower.net>    William wrote: > 5 > I have just acquired VMS 5.5-2 on tape which I hope 8 > to load into my MicroVAX II. My MVII is encased within6 > the BA23 (rackmount) enclosure and will have an RD54( > disk (159MB 5.25) and TK50 tape drive. > : > Although I will leave out DECwindows on the install I am: > still concerned about lack of disk space. Since no other5 > hardware will fit in the enclosure I am considering 2 > setting up a cluster with my VAXstation 3100 and2 > MicroVAX 3100-30. Since the MVII lacks the DELQA2 > ethernet card I would like to connect through an+ > asynchronous line. Will this work? If so, 0 > will the "clustering" overcome the MVII's lack. > of disk space and enable paging to the disks6 > on the other platforms? Will the other CPU's kick in3 > when the MVII's CPU gets overburdened? What other 2 > features will clustering offer with this version	 > of VMS?  > 3 > Any comments are appreciated. Also please suggest 1 > any "buzzwords" that I might run through Google / > to lead me further into online documentation. - > Some terms I have looked into: VMS, DECnet,  > RMS, OpenCMU.  > 5 > Also, here is a cool link I found while "Googling". / > It relates to a VAX working in the Antarctic.  > 8 > http://www.nerc-bas.ac.uk/public/uasd/sesame/data.html >  > Bill > Amsterdam, NL   8 The cluster manuals list ethernet as the slowest usable 4 interconnect.  I think people have used T1 lines to 4 connect remote sites, but I don't think they boot or; swap/page over the T1 line.  (A T1 line is 1.5 meg bit/sec. 3 I would guess whatever serial card you have in the   MicroVAX is much slower that.)  6 Even with ethernet as the cluster interconnect people 5 try to avoid paging and swapping over the network by  + using a local disk for paging and swapping.   6 If you install VMS on both the MicroVAX and 3100's you& could run DECNet over the serial line.  9 If you want to cluster all three systems your best choice 8 is to get an ethernet card for the MicroVAX, use one of 8 the 3100's as the boot node and use the RD54 for paging, swapping and normal user files.   6 The cluster will not speed up your MicroVAX.  It will 4 allow you to share disks, printers, batch queues and6 other resources but won't speed up any of the systems.  8 For more information about clusters see "Guidelines for 5 OpenVMS Cluster Configurations" and "OpenVMS Cluster  & Systems".  Both manuals are online at # http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 08:42:59 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> M Subject: Re: Be prepared, Encompass is using SBA to SPAM folks for Membership 4 Message-ID: <VA.00000529.889a99e0@bluewin.delete.ch>  J In article <U1TxKxTzw9wY@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Larry Kilgallen wrote:h > In article <VA.00000528.841d6edf@bluewin.delete.ch>, Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> writes: > M > > However, a new breed of this hit me this week. It welcomed me to a stream O > > of porn, which it would keep on sending UNLESS I clicked on the url, which  H > > quite clearly contained my email address (this would have been less J > > obvious in an HTML mail reader). IMO that was an attempt to get me to $ > > confirm my address as working... > F > In addition to the paid filtering service, SpamCop does offer a free, > reporting service at http://spamcop.net/ . > D Thanks for the reminder. Unfortunately, this one arrived at work viaE Lotus Notes and I don't get to see the headers, which makes reporting ( the problem properly somewhat difficult. ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:29:57 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)3 Subject: Re: compaq logo on DECwindows login screen K Message-ID: <rdeininger-0302021029580001@1cust220.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   B In article <20020202183557.0e62343c.roland@barmettler.net>, Roland) Barmettler <roland@barmettler.net> wrote:    >--=.vZGLR?PYLLrCrU + >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII   >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >  >Hi  > + >This may be a stupid question, but anyway: B >Up to VMS 7.2-x there was a nice "digital" logo on the DECwindows? >login screen. Since 7.3 it became a rather ugly "Compaq" logo. D >Does anybody know how to change that back ? Is it an bitmap of some& >sort or hardcoded into the X server ?  H I think it's a bitmap file, and replacing it with your own is documentedG ... somewhere.  Just guessing, look at DECW$PRIVATE_APPS_SETUP.COM, and # the documentation around that file.   I The standard picture _may_ be hardwired in the code, as opposed to loaded J out of a file, so there may not be a file anywhere with the "digital" logo3 in it.  If there is, the upgrade likely deletes it.   H If you find the file, you'll likely want to keep an archive copy of bothC the "digital" one and the "Compaq" one, just in case you don't like  whatever comes next...   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 08:42:59 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> , Subject: Re: Default terminal printer in CDE4 Message-ID: <VA.0000052a.889a99ea@bluewin.delete.ch>  J In article <a3h25d$jg1$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>, Christoph Gartmann wrote:h > In article <VA.00000527.841d6ed5@bluewin.delete.ch>, Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> writes:Z > >In article <e319d183.0202010050.5dba3245@posting.google.com>, Christoph Gartmann wrote: > >> rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) wrote in message news:<rdeininger-3101021826480001@1cust172.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>...W > >> > In article <a3bevb$llt$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>, gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de wrote:  > >> >   > >> > >Hello, > >> > >R > >> > >how do I define a default printer for my DECterm windows under CDE? I haveR > >> > >a logical SYS$PRINT defined jobwide that points to my preferred queue. But/ > >> > >this doesn't help. I tried to to put a  7 > >> > >  $ DEFINE decw$printer_format_default "LASER7" W > >> > >in SESSIONETC.COM, no luck either. Setting the printer from within the terminal P > >> > >window and saving the settings in DECW$TERMINAL_DEFAULT.DAT doesn't helpR > >> > >either. The printer setting doesn't seem to get saved in there. Thus, what > >> > >else could I try?  > >> > > > >> > >Regards, > >> > >   Christoph Gartmann  > >> >  L > >> > in DECwindows Motif, you can define logical names which control whichL > >> > queues are listed in the Print... dialog boxes.  Something like this: > >> >  : > >> > $ define decw$printer_format_text "queue_1,queue_2"B > >> > $ define decw$printer_format_ps   "queue_3,queue_4,queue_5" > >> >  P > >> > Only the queues you list will show up in the dialog boxes.  (Don't ask me3 > >> > where this is documented, I don't remember.)S > >> > bP > >> > I don't know if the CDE print mechanism honors these logical names.  I've > >> > never clicked that icon.i > >> !J > >> I tried various possibilities and found that the following line in my > >> LOGIN.COM did the trick:n5 > >>    $ DEFINE decw$printer_format_default "LASER7"sE > >> Of course, I had to log out from CDE and login again in order too > >> activate the settinig.q > >> nO > >OTOH, I've been happily working for ages with the following LOGIN.COM entry:n > >i. > > $ DEFINE SYS$PRINT generic_dcps_queue_name > Q > I had that, too but suddenly it stopped working and I couldn't find out why. It7* > might be due to some patch I installed.  > K How recently? I'm running 7.2.1H1 plus a gazzilion ECOs (up to date 2 weeks3 ago).e ___r
 Paul Sture Switzerlands   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2002 10:19:25 GMTn3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)g, Subject: Re: Default terminal printer in CDE0 Message-ID: <a3j2rd$8n3$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  f In article <VA.0000052a.889a99ea@bluewin.delete.ch>, Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> writes:P >> >OTOH, I've been happily working for ages with the following LOGIN.COM entry: >> >/ >> > $ DEFINE SYS$PRINT generic_dcps_queue_name  >> aR >> I had that, too but suddenly it stopped working and I couldn't find out why. It+ >> might be due to some patch I installed.   >> iL >How recently? I'm running 7.2.1H1 plus a gazzilion ECOs (up to date 2 weeks >ago).  M I am at 7.1-2 and I don't remember when it stopped working. Normally I notice0M it only when I press a few keys by accident that result in a screen-dump sent  to the default printer.g   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann@  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 11:26:06 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG  Subject: RE: FREEWARE 5.0 0 Message-ID: <00A09004.1FE4B1AC@SendSpamHere.ORG>  _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIECGEBAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: A >What's wrong with it is  that I want to download a single image,  >t >ok so I am lazy.e  J What image do you want?  There's an "index" so to speak of the contents of
 the CD at:  u http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/FREEWARE/00FREEWARE_ABSTRACT.TXT/FREEWARE/00FREEWARE_ABSTRACT.TXT  d   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMm            lJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbest   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 07:46:19 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>y Subject: RE: FREEWARE 5.0 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGECKEBAA.tom@kednos.com>   F I just wanted to download the entire CD.  I was aware of the site that you reference.   > -----Original Message-----@ > From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:system@SendSpamHere.ORG]) > Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 3:26 AMg > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  > Subject: RE: FREEWARE 5.0  >k > @ > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIECGEBAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom" > Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:C > >What's wrong with it is  that I want to download a single image,g > >p > >ok so I am lazy.f >yL > What image do you want?  There's an "index" so to speak of the contents of > the CD at: >ED > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware50/FREEWARE/00FREEW3 > ARE_ABSTRACT.TXT/FREEWARE/00FREEWARE_ABSTRACT.TXTg >l > --4 > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001 > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >sK >   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery K >   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesd >    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2002 07:57:07 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)-* Subject: Re: I/O Performance on Alpha 4100= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0202030757.1720df89@posting.google.com>"  b briannfo@aol.com (BrianNFO) wrote in message news:<20020128122640.25359.00001751@mb-mq.aol.com>...M > this application uses some very large indexed files (in excess of 1 millionbB > blocks) and the caching can be ineffective...very low hit rates.  A Have you enabled RMS file statistics gathering?  Once you've donetD that, you can use MONITOR RMS/FILE=xxx/ITEM=ALL to get a lot of infoE about the behavior of the application I/O, like I/O sizes, read/write 6 ratios, RMS buffer hit rates, and data transfer rates.  D Do you have RMS global buffers in use on the hot RMS indexed files? E (It can be helpful to have enough global buffers to store much or allrB of the index structure for hot files in shared memory, rather thanA each process having to keep its own copies in local RMS buffers.)i  D Do you have procedures in place to regularly run CONVERT to optimizeF these files?  Is old data removed or archived out of the files so they$ don't just continue to grow forever?  I > I see I/O queues building on 2 or 3 of the drives, and IOX hit rates on- > those drives being low.e  D Disk striping (aka RAID-0), either at the host or controller levels,F could help you reduce the I/O queue lengths if there's really not muchE locality of reference for the reads, or if there's a preponderance of  writes.5  H > Of course, more memory is an option...but I feel I need to address the > slow scsi devices as well.  E Don't fall into the trap of thinking that higher transfer rates (i.e.nA Ultra2 SCSI or Fibre Channel) will solve all your I/O performancerC problems.  First determine if bandwidth is really your bottleneck. B> Other factors, like controller caching, and disk seek time andB rotational latency, can often be more important than data transferD rate.  When folks report faster I/O performance with their brand-new@ HSG80s, they are typically getting half a gigabyte of write-backE cache, new 15K rpm drives, and a faster controller CPU along with thetD Fibre Channel transport on the front end and Ultra2 Wide SCSI on the back end of the controller.a  @ I would make sure that the I/O is optimized up at the host levelC first, then once that is done, you will know the characteristics of E the I/O that is left over at the disk or controller subsystem, so you	 can optimize that.  C For example, if after using RMS global buffers (or IOX) to cache as D many reads as possible, you may find that most I/Os to the disks areE writes, so then any sort of controller write-back cache might be mosteF helpful, regardless of the disk interconnect or the disk configuration behind the controller.C -------------------------------------------------------------------rC Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | VMS consulting on:5C Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Internals, Performance, Storage & I/O.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 14:39:00 +0000Q. From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb@sdf.lonestar.org>A Subject: Increasing free global pages/sections on OpenVMS 7.3/VAXcA Message-ID: <L%b78.1100$BU3.433407@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>s   Hi,g  F I'm trying to install Compaq TCPIP V5.1 (from the OpenVMS VAX 7.3 CD).F The installation instructions say that it requires at least 65 global G sections, and 8100 global pagelets.  However, I can't seem to get this 1 working on the VMS system..n
 I have added:c   MIN_GBLPAGES=10000 MIN_GBLSECTIONS=200<  K to SYS$SYSTEM:MODPARAMS.DAT, run AUTOGEN (both with and without feedback), o< and rebooted, but it doesn't seem to have affected anything:  , $ write sys$output f$getsy1("free_gblpages") 30, $ write sys$output f$getsy1("free_gblsects") 61   the system is:G OpenVMS V7.3  on node STYX   2-FEB-2002 15:40:41.35  Uptime  0 00:29:25d STYX, a MicroVAX IItH Multiprocessing is DISABLED. Uniprocessing synchronization image loaded.   PRIMARY CPU = 00 Active CPUs:      00 Configured CPUs:  00  ' Any help on this would be appreciated..wK (I have never touched a VMS system from an admin point of view before this  9 week, so I may well have missed something obvious here..)s           -larne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 10:54:03 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)E Subject: Re: Increasing free global pages/sections on OpenVMS 7.3/VAX K Message-ID: <rdeininger-0302021054030001@1cust220.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   H In article <L%b78.1100$BU3.433407@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, Edward( Brocklesby <ejb@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote:   >Hi, >DG >I'm trying to install Compaq TCPIP V5.1 (from the OpenVMS VAX 7.3 CD).oG >The installation instructions say that it requires at least 65 global iH >sections, and 8100 global pagelets.  However, I can't seem to get this  >working on the VMS system.. >I have added: >t >MIN_GBLPAGES=10000u >MIN_GBLSECTIONS=200  F These are the minimum numbers you will accept, for the TOTAL number of pages and sections.k   > L >to SYS$SYSTEM:MODPARAMS.DAT, run AUTOGEN (both with and without feedback), = >and rebooted, but it doesn't seem to have affected anything:D >s- >$ write sys$output f$getsy1("free_gblpages")A3                            ^ should be "i", not "1"E >30p- >$ write sys$output f$getsy1("free_gblsects")  >61r  D After you reboot VMS, a bunch of sections and pages get used.  TheseF lexical functions are showing you what remains free.  There is nothing inconsistent here.  G Do the installation instructions say you need a certain number of TOTALh8 global sections/pages, or a certain number of FREE ones?  I If you increase your MIN_xxx settings in MODPARAMS and autogen again, youeH should have more free sections/pages after you boot. (Assuming you don't# change the software configuration.)c   >the system is: H >OpenVMS V7.3  on node STYX   2-FEB-2002 15:40:41.35  Uptime  0 00:29:25 >STYX, a MicroVAX III >Multiprocessing is DISABLED. Uniprocessing synchronization image loaded.e  I IIRC, TCPIP 5.1 is enough of a resource hog that fitting it into the veryeI old vaxes in difficult.  I don't think you can configure enough memory to D make a _supported_ configuration with V5.1.  But it will likely work anyway, if somewhat slowly.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 16:18:27 +0000o. From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb@sdf.lonestar.org>E Subject: Re: Increasing free global pages/sections on OpenVMS 7.3/VAX A Message-ID: <2td78.1408$BU3.509436@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>w   Robert Deininger wrote:/F > After you reboot VMS, a bunch of sections and pages get used.  TheseH > lexical functions are showing you what remains free.  There is nothing > inconsistent here. > I > Do the installation instructions say you need a certain number of TOTAL : > global sections/pages, or a certain number of FREE ones?  % According to the installation manual-sJ "The TCP/IP Services software requires 65 global sections and 8100 global 
 pagelets."   K > If you increase your MIN_xxx settings in MODPARAMS and autogen again, yougJ > should have more free sections/pages after you boot. (Assuming you don't% > change the software configuration.)   L Well, this is the problem.. whatever i set these values to, doesn't seem to K make a difference. f$getsyi("free_gblpages") and f$getsyi("free_gblsects") g still returns the same value.f  H Also, the output file written by AUTOGEN (SYS$SYSTEM:AGEN$PARAMS.REPORT)K does not mention either of these values being changed, though it does show p" other values set in MODPARAMS.DAT.   > ... But it will likely worke > anyway, if somewhat slowly.f   That's ok, I'm patient :)t           -larne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 11:51:21 -0500-2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)E Subject: Re: Increasing free global pages/sections on OpenVMS 7.3/VAX:K Message-ID: <rdeininger-0302021151210001@1cust220.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>g  H In article <2td78.1408$BU3.509436@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, Edward( Brocklesby <ejb@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote:   >Robert Deininger wrote:G >> After you reboot VMS, a bunch of sections and pages get used.  ThesecI >> lexical functions are showing you what remains free.  There is nothingm >> inconsistent here.  >> rJ >> Do the installation instructions say you need a certain number of TOTAL; >> global sections/pages, or a certain number of FREE ones?n >s& >According to the installation manual-K >"The TCP/IP Services software requires 65 global sections and 8100 global   >pagelets."t  E I'd say you've met that requirement, unless AUTOGEN is saying that it ' failed to obey your MODPARAMS requests.n  L >> If you increase your MIN_xxx settings in MODPARAMS and autogen again, youK >> should have more free sections/pages after you boot. (Assuming you don'ty& >> change the software configuration.) >tM >Well, this is the problem.. whatever i set these values to, doesn't seem to 0L >make a difference. f$getsyi("free_gblpages") and f$getsyi("free_gblsects")  >still returns the same value. >eI >Also, the output file written by AUTOGEN (SYS$SYSTEM:AGEN$PARAMS.REPORT) L >does not mention either of these values being changed, though it does show # >other values set in MODPARAMS.DAT.   G You may be hitting the limits of what autogen can do with the availabletG memory.  Or maybe some _other_ piece of software is eating up the extrau+ resources as you increase them in MODPARMS.   E In situations like this is it sometimes useful to actually read everytH message from AUTOGEN.  You know, the ones most of us always skip over inJ our haste.  AUTOGEN is a wordy fellow, but sometimes he does say something
 important.     >> ... But it will likely work >> anyway, if somewhat slowly. >g >That's ok, I'm patient :)  G If you start TCPIP in less than optimal conditions, you should probablydI only enable 1 or 2 components at a time, and see how the system responds.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 17:11:35 +0000t. From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb@sdf.lonestar.org>E Subject: Re: Increasing free global pages/sections on OpenVMS 7.3/VAXh> Message-ID: <6fe78.1834$vd4.354034@news11-gui.server.ntli.net>   --nextPart1554708.JzUNBpVWas, Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bita   Robert Deininger wrote:nG > I'd say you've met that requirement, unless AUTOGEN is saying that itV) > failed to obey your MODPARAMS requests.n  3 well, the values in modparams certainly seem fine..h  rI > You may be hitting the limits of what autogen can do with the availabletI > memory.  Or maybe some _other_ piece of software is eating up the extra0- > resources as you increase them in MODPARMS.m  < Is there any way to check this? (eg see what's using them..)G There isn't any error on startup or during autogen (that I can see) to d2 indicate that it's not able to do what I've asked.  -G > In situations like this is it sometimes useful to actually read every J > message from AUTOGEN.  You know, the ones most of us always skip over inL > our haste.  AUTOGEN is a wordy fellow, but sometimes he does say something > important.  @ If it helps, I've attached the output file generated by AUTOGEN.  K (I really have no idea what could be wrong here, so sorry if I'm not being   particularly helpful).           -larne --nextPart1554708.JzUNBpVWas) Content-Type: text/plain; name="agen.out"_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit>4 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="agen.out"  A AUTOGEN Parameter Calculation Report on node: Nodename is Unknowne;   This information was generated at  2-FEB-2002 17:17:06.28EK   AUTOGEN was run from GENPARAMS to GENPARAMS - default execution specifiede  ( ** No changes will be done by AUTOGEN **9    The values given in this report are what AUTOGEN wouldr     have set the parameters to.   ; This run of AUTOGEN is *NOT* based on FEEDBACK information."H   The resulting calculations may not be representative of your workload.F   DIGITAL recommends the use of feedback to adjust system resources to    match system workloads.     Parameter information follows:  -----------------------------  / Information on VMS executable image Processing:d  4         Processing SYS$MANAGER:VMS$IMAGES_MASTER.DAT   NPAGEDYN parameter information:kI         Override Information - parameter calculation has been overridden.    NPAGEDYN parameter information: I         Override Information - parameter calculation has been overridden.nE            The calculated value was 484864.  The new value is 984864. 1            NPAGEDYN has been increased by 500000.    NPAGEVIR parameter information:pI         Override Information - parameter calculation has been overridden.IG            The calculated value was 4924320.  The new value is 5424320. 1            NPAGEVIR has been increased by 500000.t   SPTREQ parameter information:-I         Override Information - parameter calculation has been overridden.(A            The calculated value was 4028.  The new value is 6000. 6            SPTREQ is not allowed to be less than 6000.G         PQL_DPGFLQUOTA has been increased to accomodate the working setl&         requirements of PQL_DWSEXTENT.G         PQL_MPGFLQUOTA has been increased to accomodate the working set &         requirements of PQL_MWSEXTENT.  " SCSSYSTEMID parameter information:I         Override Information - parameter calculation has been overridden.u>            The calculated value was 0.  The new value is 1025.D            SCSSYSTEMID has been set to the hard-coded value of 1025.     --nextPart1554708.JzUNBpVWas--   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 18:13:18 -0000* From: "Paul Sharrock" <psharrock@dabs.com> Subject: Re: LICENSE/CHARGEa% Message-ID: <3c5d7938$1@194.70.94.92>-  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMECAEBAA.tom@kednos.com... / > Is there a site which displays the results ofi > $ SHOW LICENSE/CHARGE " > for all the differnet platforms? >tH > In particular, I am interested in ES40,45. which if someone could post > would be much apreciated.    Here is the ES40 output   ; This is a Compaq AlphaServer ES40, hardware model type 1820nI Type: A, Units Required: 200    (VAX/VMS Capacity or OpenVMS Unlimited or0 Base)64 Type: B, * Not Permitted *      (VAX/VMS F&A Server)9 Type: C, * Not Permitted *      (VAX/VMS Concurrent User).5 Type: D, * Not Permitted *      (VAX/VMS Workstation)dD Type: E, * Not Permitted *      (VAX/VMS System Integrated Products)6 Type: F, * Not Permitted *      (VAX Layered Products)* Type: G, * Not Permitted *      (Reserved)8 Type: H, Units Required: 1050   (Alpha Layered Products)2 Type: I, Units Required: 1050   (Layered Products)    
 Paul SharrockW dabs.com plc   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 18:47:22 +0010t% From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.auIY Subject: Re: OT: Language (was:Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demm5 Message-ID: <01KDUIWNI0CY002W08@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>i   William Meyer wrote:  H >"Charles Shannon Hendrix" <shannon@news.widomaker.com> wrote in message) >news:h1ji3a.j21.ln@escape.shannon.net...u >>; >> And WE are perfectly happy to let you lay claim to that.A >oI >Might as well be, as the southern English patois in America is descendedt, >rather cleanly from the Queen's own tongue.   Well, it is Sunday :-)  H I'll go pedantic again, but merely quote Merriam-Webster before someone  faults me -- again.g   Definition of patois:.  L 1a: a dialect other than the standard or literary dialect, b: uneducated or  provincial speech.  K 2: the characteristic special language of an occupational or social group: I JARGON.d  M Sorry, Bill.  Insert dialect instead of patois, and my understanding is that t you are essentially correct.  K But then, to paraphrase another denizen, how would I know?  After 20 years aE here, I still find it difficult to understand some Australian patois.A   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2002 06:43:21 -0800a1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)i3 Subject: Re: RTR (was: Compaq financial conference)n= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0202030643.33a13079@posting.google.com>H  Y JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3C51ADD3.481FA134@videotron.ca>...pG > The problem with RTR is that it needs to also run on a fault tolerantlA > platform.  If it fails, then your stream of transactions fail !c  7 This is incorrect.  While it's always helpful to run on2E high-availability systems, RTR allows you to configure redundant data C routers, back-end data servers (and front-end clients if you wish), E and failure of any of those is accommodated without transaction loss.d  C And its ability to "shadow" back-end data servers (sending the sameOF transaction to two completely independent database servers, and if one@ fails, "remembering" the missed transactions to allow the failedC server to be quickly brought back up-to-date after it recovers, ande+ thus restore redundancy, is pretty amazing.   C I did a DECUS presentation which is aimed at introducing RTR to VMSt professionals.  It's attS http://www.geocities.com/keithparris/decus_presentations/f99_rtr_cf_vmsclusters.pptoC -------------------------------------------------------------------nC Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | VMS consulting on:uC Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Internals, Performance, Storage & I/Oe   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 08:00:38 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>n Subject: RE: tcpip9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMECLEBAA.tom@kednos.com>   L In answer to you question, no.  In this case typing tc produced some output, i.e,K it invoked some command.  So the more general question is how do you locaten suchL an animal.  BTW 'which foo' returns the full file specification for 'foo' as known G to the currently invoked shell.  So what are the possibilities, if SHOWb SYMBOL, SHOWI LOGICAL and [*...] don't turn up anything then where do you look?  Do you 	 need VERBoI to examine the command tables to locate the name of the underlying image?e	 Does thisi% then constitute an exhaustive search?n       > -----Original Message-----; > From: Robert Deininger [mailto:rdeininger@mindspring.com]s+ > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2002 9:32 AMo > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr > Subject: Re: tcpip >o >oH > In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKECBEBAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" > <tom@kednos.com> wrote:e >oL > >I often access nodes in our cluster using putty on a W2K box.  One of the > >nodesL > >runs UCX (TCPIP V4.2) on 7.1-2 and another 5.1 on 7.3  I thought I was on > >theF > >latter and typed TCPIP, but I was on the former .  It printed out a
 > >TCPIPtracel? > >of XMT and RCV packets.  $ TC also works and a search of ther > system revealedo5 > >nothing, I looked for logicals or files named tc*.t > >n> > >Where does this come from?  Something like the unix 'which' > command would be > >nice. >tI > I don't have access to a UCX 4.2 system at the moment, so I'm guessing.- >-( > I also don't know what 'which' does... >tB > At the DCL level, there are at least 3 ways to invoke a command: >eJ > 1. A regular DCL verb in the process's command table.  These are createdL > (by a product kit or end user) via SET COMMAND.  The freeware VERB utilityL > can reverse the process, producing a .CLD file representing a piece of theI > command table.  VERB is stupid about abbreviations.  If there's a TCPIP.K > command defined, an abbreviation will invoke it from DCL, but you'll havepK > to spell it out completely for VERB.  (Perhaps this has changed in recents > versions of VERB.) >nH > 2. A DCL symbol.  Something like TC*PIP :== whatever would do what youG > describe. The "whatever" part could involve either a command file, an0H > executable image, or a built-in verb.  The "*" character in the symbolF > definition indicates the shortest abbreviation that DCL will accept.D > Anything between TC and TCPIP would be recognized in this example. >gI > 3. The DCL$PATH logical name mechanism.  I never use it, so I shouldn't2K > say much.  My vague recollection is that is does NOT do abbreviations, sos( > it likely isn't involved in this case. >nL > The last two mechanisms should be described in the VMS User's guide and/or > the DCL dictionary.u >bF > Logical names are not directly involved in invoking commands in DCL. > 4 > I have no idea if that answers your question.  :-) >h   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 11:39:50 -0500 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) Subject: Re: tcpipK Message-ID: <rdeininger-0302021139500001@1cust220.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>n  F In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMECLEBAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:t  M >In answer to you question, no.  In this case typing tc produced some output,j >i.eL >it invoked some command.  So the more general question is how do you locate >suchOM >an animal.  BTW 'which foo' returns the full file specification for 'foo' asa >knownH >to the currently invoked shell.  So what are the possibilities, if SHOW
 >SYMBOL, SHOWgJ >LOGICAL and [*...] don't turn up anything then where do you look?  Do you
 >need VERBJ >to examine the command tables to locate the name of the underlying image?
 >Does this& >then constitute an exhaustive search?  E The unix mechanism is roughly equivalent to the DCL$PATH mechanism inoG VMS.  So the analog for "which" would be a wild-card DIRECTORY command."  C SHOW SYMBOL/LOCAL/GLOBAL TC* should locate any symbol that could be  invoking the command.u  G And VERB will help you find it if it is in the command table.  Based oniE what you've said so far, VERB is probably what you need in this case.r  H So there is not a single mechanism that will search all the possibilitesJ for you.  This should probably be added to VMS.  A SHOW VERB command could= look in all the places that DCL currently looks for commands,xH incorporating the current VERB and the extras mentioned above.  Maybe inD an alternate universe where there are lots of VMS engineers standing# around with nothing better to do...O   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2002 09:28:34 -080051 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)D Subject: Re: VMS Certification= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0202030928.2f263fea@posting.google.com>h  e "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote in message news:<vjV58.3506$X2.48673@nnrp1.uunet.ca>... L > Last night I wrote and passed the VMS System Administration exam using oneJ > of the vouchers that were given out during CETS2001. Now to complete theH > System Administration Certification I need a networking exam. The examM > Compaq recommends (CompTIA Network +) would cost $132US. Currently I do not L > see $132US worth of value in getting the System Administration CertificateK > but I am wondering if anyone else out there has bothered to get certified ) > and if they think the cost is worth it?m  A I got certified (but there was no second test at the time).  TheyaC offer you the VMS SDK kit (CONDIST/CONOLD) free for a year, so thatl may be worth the dollars.iC -------------------------------------------------------------------eC Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | VMS consulting on: C Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Internals, Performance, Storage & I/OS   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Feb 2002 15:27:35 GMTt& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)? Subject: Re: Where does VMS fit in here? (Was Re: HP admits...)h% Message-ID: <a3jkt7$4t1@web.nmti.com>e  G In article <a3bc69$3kf$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:sC > Portable???!!!  What are you talking about?  The purpose of an OSt/ > is to deliver computing services to the user.o  O The purpose of the OS is to manage resources on behalf of application programs.a  N A portable OS is one that provides the same abstraction on multiple platforms.  M The implementation may be slightly or even significantly different, depending-H on the hardware design and how the OS is laid out... but there's a clearK advantage to not making people rewrite their apps every time they get a newt	 computer.n  L Of course if you're the hardware manufacturer, having the apps be an barrier) to your customers leaving you is a bonus.9   -- s+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.yE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."uL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:54:05 -0500: From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix)Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The       demise       ot. Message-ID: <t9ji3a.mf2.ln@escape.shannon.net>  5 In article <3c72cf6b.155808181@news.btopenworld.com>,.&  <greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk> wrote:@ > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 03:15:02 -0500, shannon@news.widomaker.com% > (Charles Shannon Hendrix) sprachen:  > 0 > >> A poof jumps on your back, what do you do ? > >> 	1- do you let him do it, /  > >> or	2- do you pull him off ? > >'G > >I don't get it... we know what a poof is.  I thought that originatedmC > >over here.  In fact, two Aussies I met don't know what it means.n > G > "pull him off". To "pull", with the hand. "off". You know! <Joan-Simst > style sexy smirk>A  B Sorry, I thought this was suggesting American's didn't know what aB poof was.  I didn't even pay attention to the "Pull him off" part.       --    H UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:51:46 -0500: From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix)Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The      demise       of . Message-ID: <i5ji3a.j21.ln@escape.shannon.net>  8 In article <8omt4ug6l4agekutl0936aac5nb9jv2q7f@4ax.com>,' Alan Greig  <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:m@ > On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 03:07:28 -0500, shannon@news.widomaker.com" > (Charles Shannon Hendrix) wrote: > / > >In article <3C4C3015.840DE022@videotron.ca>,p* > >JF Mezei  <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote:J > >> > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:27:53 GMT, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> > >> > sprachen: > >> > -J > >> > >I keep telling people that English muffins are neither English nor > >> > >muffins :-)c > >> I > >> nN > >> Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very close? > >> relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?  > >> -F > >> Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are > also related* > >> to the crumpet/english muffin family. > >,I > >Scones in the US, at least back at home, is a very large sweet buscuits/ > >cut into triangles, and the recipe is Irish.m >  > Sounds like "shortbread"  I Nope, but I've had that, along with Irish sodabread, which was cake-like, 5 but not as hefty has your typical American cornbread.   D I'm glad I never order stuff like this in a restaurant.  There is no! telling what I might end up with..   -- r  H UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2002 00:49:37 -0500: From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix)Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      coma. Message-ID: <h1ji3a.j21.ln@escape.shannon.net>  5 In article <3c7bac5a.343448300@news.btopenworld.com>, &  <greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk> wrote:E > On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 18:23:47 GMT, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>t > sprachen:f > D > >You are making a common mistake.  Only Canadians originating from2 > >the western suburbs of Montreal speak English,  > G > I'm from God's Own County, matey-boy, nothing I've ever done has beene > "common".  > 7 > WE speak English, everyone else is a soft Southerner.g  8 And WE are perfectly happy to let you lay claim to that.       -- t  H UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 07:19:21 GMT . From: "William Meyer" <wmhmeyer@earthlink.net>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      comrD Message-ID: <Zv578.4657$3E5.376480@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  G "Charles Shannon Hendrix" <shannon@news.widomaker.com> wrote in messagen( news:h1ji3a.j21.ln@escape.shannon.net... >-: > And WE are perfectly happy to let you lay claim to that.  H Might as well be, as the southern English patois in America is descended+ rather cleanly from the Queen's own tongue.p   Bill   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.066 ************************