0 INFO-VAX	Sun, 10 Feb 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 80      Contents: Am I being debugged? Re: BEA MessageQ (DECMessageQ) Re: BEA MessageQ (DECMessageQ), Re: Buy 1 and Get 1 Free - 9GB S/Works Disks* Re: compaq logo on DECwindows login screen* RE: compaq logo on DECwindows login screenC Re: compaq logo on DECwindows login screen...how to get the old one % Re: emacs21 working a little bit more % Re: emacs21 working a little bit more  How to tail file?  Re: How to tail file?  HSZ40, how to enable logfile. ! Re: HSZ40, how to enable logfile.  OT: Virus Warning  Remember me? Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: Suggested ECOs?  Re: Suggested ECOs?  Re: Suggested ECOs? P Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      comA Re: Swiss ADSL - Any success with green.ch ADSL? Feedback please. . Re: The stupidity of granting software patents RE: The Vision Thing Re: The Vision Thing" Using BACKUP to create directories& Re: Using BACKUP to create directories& Re: Using BACKUP to create directoriesH RE: VMS usage in UK hospitals, was: Re: The Inq : The OpenVMS on ItaniumP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      com  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:07:45 +0000 - From: Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk>  Subject: Am I being debugged? / Message-ID: <3C666291.CC53D4F1@herald.ox.ac.uk>    Howdy y'all   D Small question: how can my (C today, but tomorrow will be different). program tell if it is being run in debug mode?  $ I'm not shy of system service calls.     Thanks very much!    --   ICQ 40628243 Tel 07092057581   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:07:51 -0500 + From: "Mike Kier" <michael.kier@compaq.com> ' Subject: Re: BEA MessageQ (DECMessageQ) 0 Message-ID: <INx98.119$Jh4.690@news.cpqcorp.net>  4 "Jakob Erber" <erber@tiscalinet.ch> wrote in message' news:3c654a2a$1_2@news.tiscalinet.ch... $ > Thanks for this interesting reply.L > Would it be possible to give a brief outline, how you configured the MQ toF > get a maximum of data reliabiliy? How for example do you protect theL > recoverable message system from a disk crash? Is disk mirroring sufficient > here?  >  > best regards >  > Jakob  >  > @ > Mike Kier <michael.kier@compaq.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:& > lyS88.41$Jh4.232@news.cpqcorp.net...J > > We use MessageQ extensively on the Indiana Toll Road.  It connects theL > > Windows/NT touch screen PCs (Visual Basic) in the lanes with the OpenVMSJ > > Alphas (Fortran 95) in the Toll Plaza building and they in turn use it toK > > connect with the OpenVMS Alphas at the Toll Road Administration Center. A > > We've been using it for over five years and have never lost a  transaction.# > > We run over TCP/IP Services V5.  > > J > > I also know of a large aluminum rolling mill that uses it extensively. > > --
 > > Mike Kier   > > Compaq Professional Services > > Cincinnati, OH, USA  > > michael.kier@compaq.com  > >   J Yes, shadowing would be sufficient. To be honest, we've not implemented toL that level, except at the Administration Center, as the cost of the few lostH transactions we would see is trivial and not enough to justify the extraI disk spindles.  We have MRQ configured at each lane (PC) and at each Toll K Plaza (Alpha) as well as a ring buffer data file in both the lane and Plaza E applications that allows us to retransmit up to several days worth of J information for any specific lane or Plaza.  Should we lose a PC disk withH the MQ data, we've only lost a few transactions for that lane; should weJ lose a plaza MQ disk, we simply have all the lanes retransmit the last day or two worth of information. --	 Mike Kier  Compaq Professional Services Cincinnati, OH, USA  michael.kier@compaq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:11:51 -0500 + From: "Mike Kier" <michael.kier@compaq.com> ' Subject: Re: BEA MessageQ (DECMessageQ) 0 Message-ID: <sRx98.120$Jh4.701@news.cpqcorp.net>  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message ' news:87it96ih5u.fsf@prep.synonet.com... / > "Mike Kier" <michael.kier@compaq.com> writes:  >  > ... A > > We've been using it for over five years and have never lost a  > > transaction. > & > In about how many transactions Mike? >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. B >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.  K It varies tremendously by hour and by day and by Toll Plaza (you should see J a Notre Dame home football day :-), but on a typical day there are betweenE 75K and 125K toll transactions, and since it goes from PC to Plaza to E Administration Center, that's between 225K and 375K DMQ messages plus  confirmations per day. --	 Mike Kier  Compaq Professional Services Cincinnati, OH, USA  michael.kier@compaq.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:29:35 -0500 1 From: "Island (hpaq.net)" <dbturner@islandco.com> 5 Subject: Re: Buy 1 and Get 1 Free - 9GB S/Works Disks / Message-ID: <u6dbfkstncivad@news.supernews.com>   . We can get the replacement RZ1DF-VA 9GB Narrow   They are $375 each     DT: David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3C65F7F3.CB30F275@fsi.net...  > "Island (hpaq.net)" wrote: > >  > > www.islandco.com > >  > > DS-RZ1DB-VW $299* > > Buy one at this price and get one free > @ > Actually, I'm looking for RZ40-VAs - but then, isn't everyone? >  > -- > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:15:54 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> 3 Subject: Re: compaq logo on DECwindows login screen 4 Message-ID: <VA.00000533.1e8e4e33@bluewin.delete.ch>  M In article <a3rg17$haf$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, Dave Gudewicz wrote: K > I would respect the Aussies comment on the shark.  Most of us landlubbers L > see sharks on TV and aquariums (big ones).  Just the other day, my son whoL > got a shark jaw from Florida, dropped the thing and ripped his arm open in > the process. > F I've come across the word shark having bad connotations in a business  context. From www.m-w.com    Main Entry: 2 shark    Function: noun>   Etymology: probably modification of German Schurke scoundrel   Date: 15999       1 : a rapacious crafty person who preys upon others /           through usury, extortion, or trickery ;       2 : one who excels greatly especially in a particular            field     L While I like the second meaning there, the phrase "loan shark" more readily  springs to mind.    > Perhps a kinder, gentler icon. > N Perhaps, although if the shark were to be used it could be accompanied by the J original reasons and the second definition above, perhaps in a HelpAbout  box?  N I personally like the idea of having a choice of several, in a similar manner  to choosing Motif styles.  ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:11:43 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 3 Subject: RE: compaq logo on DECwindows login screen 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKENJEBAA.tom@kednos.com>   F maybe there should a newgoup for vms-linguistics enthusiasts.  The OEDJ doesn't know the exact origins of shark, mentions Schirke Austrian dialectI for sturgeon, Northeatern french variant of chercher, cherquier and gives J some plausible early uses.  Skurk is modern swedish for scoundrel, the OEDG equivalent, SAOB having gotten through S indicates the german as below.    > -----Original Message-----8 > From: Paul Sture [mailto:paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch]) > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 8:16 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 5 > Subject: Re: compaq logo on DECwindows login screen  >  > ? > In article <a3rg17$haf$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, Dave  > Gudewicz wrote: A > > I would respect the Aussies comment on the shark.  Most of us 
 > landlubbers C > > see sharks on TV and aquariums (big ones).  Just the other day,  > my son whoB > > got a shark jaw from Florida, dropped the thing and ripped his
 > arm open in  > > the process. > > G > I've come across the word shark having bad connotations in a business  > context. From www.m-w.com  >  > Main Entry: 2 shark  >   Function: noun@ >   Etymology: probably modification of German Schurke scoundrel >   Date: 1599; >       1 : a rapacious crafty person who preys upon others 1 >           through usury, extortion, or trickery = >       2 : one who excels greatly especially in a particular  >           field  > @ > While I like the second meaning there, the phrase "loan shark" > more readily > springs to mind. > " > > Perhps a kinder, gentler icon. > > < > Perhaps, although if the shark were to be used it could be > accompanied by theK > original reasons and the second definition above, perhaps in a HelpAbout  > box? > @ > I personally like the idea of having a choice of several, in a > similar manner > to choosing Motif styles.  > ___  > Paul Sture
 > Switzerland  >    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2002 20:10:48 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>L Subject: Re: compaq logo on DECwindows login screen...how to get the old one- Message-ID: <87k7tlv8on.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   ) Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com> writes:   ; > As for some of the females mentioned below, rotsa ruck...   > Or ,to quote the secretary from the local Pyramid office years ago;  + "Now I know why it's called a root window."   4 She was most miffed when the boss madw it go away... (and no, it was NOT a female!)   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:55:18 +0000 (UTC) 9 From: Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no> . Subject: Re: emacs21 working a little bit more, Message-ID: <a45jim$1u$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>  , John E. Malmberg <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote: : Roar Throns wrote:   / :> John E. Malmberg <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote:  :>  ; :: SYSTEM-F-ASTFLT, AST fault, SP=00000000, param=00000000, L :: PC=0000000000000000, PS=00000000, target PC=FFFFFFFF80A50B44, PS=0000001BK :: Use the linker map to identify the closest symbol to 80A50B44, and then  K :: find it using HEX math in the assembly listing produced by the compiler.  :>   :> 80A50B44 is not in my space.    It is btw in DECC$SHR.  A :> The debugger caught it and showed me which service who got it, L :> but it was probably some new functionality someplace else that caused it.; :> (Some atimer module using alarm/signals (meaning ASTs).)   F : If you can reproduce this readily, try commenting out functionality ( : until you get the smallest reproducer.  J : If you can reproduce this in the debugger, by using the SHOW IMAGE, SET I : IMAGE and SET MODULE commands, the debugger can sometimes identify the  & : different images in the stack trace.  E : This may allow you to identify what queued the AST that is failing    : because of the STACK problems.  J I circumvented most of the ASTFLTs by turning off the alarm-timers in someJ parts of the code, and I can reproduce by commenting out the turning-offs.  = I set break at myhandler (a handler for handling the ASTFLT).   @ It is then typically in a sys$wflor, waiting for keyboard input.  E At invocation of myhandler, it is typically 40 call frames from main.   $ With set image, I get the following:   0: VMSPROC (where myhandler is)  1: DECC$$SHELL_HANDLER 2: ? 3: DECC$GSIGNAL  4: DECC$INET6_RTHDR_ADD  5,6: ? 7: SSI$CANCEL_REPLACEMENT  8,9: SHARE$SYS$SSISHR  10: SYS$GETJPI_FAST_K  11: SHARE$SYS$SSISHR 12: VMSPROC (doing a sys$wflor)  39/40: main   L Normal operation with sys$wflor is without those which is presently numbered 0 to 5.    Regards, Roar Throns   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 18:26:16 GMT - From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> . Subject: Re: emacs21 working a little bit more* Message-ID: <3C66BE6E.2030401@qsl.network>   Roar Throns wrote:  > C > :> The debugger caught it and showed me which service who got it, N > :> but it was probably some new functionality someplace else that caused it.= > :> (Some atimer module using alarm/signals (meaning ASTs).)  > H > : If you can reproduce this readily, try commenting out functionality * > : until you get the smallest reproducer. > L > : If you can reproduce this in the debugger, by using the SHOW IMAGE, SET K > : IMAGE and SET MODULE commands, the debugger can sometimes identify the  ( > : different images in the stack trace. > G > : This may allow you to identify what queued the AST that is failing  " > : because of the STACK problems. > L > I circumvented most of the ASTFLTs by turning off the alarm-timers in someL > parts of the code, and I can reproduce by commenting out the turning-offs. > ? > I set break at myhandler (a handler for handling the ASTFLT).  > B > It is then typically in a sys$wflor, waiting for keyboard input. > G > At invocation of myhandler, it is typically 40 call frames from main.  > & > With set image, I get the following: > ! > 0: VMSPROC (where myhandler is)  > 1: DECC$$SHELL_HANDLER > 2: ? > 3: DECC$GSIGNAL  > 4: DECC$INET6_RTHDR_ADD  > 5,6: ? > 7: SSI$CANCEL_REPLACEMENT  > 8,9: SHARE$SYS$SSISHR  > 10: SYS$GETJPI_FAST_K  > 11: SHARE$SYS$SSISHR! > 12: VMSPROC (doing a sys$wflor) 
 > 39/40: main  > N > Normal operation with sys$wflor is without those which is presently numbered	 > 0 to 5.     H Ok, the ASTFLT message is from something being wrong with the user mode J stack.  Either the stack pointer was invalid, or something used it all up.  4 This occurred at some point before the AST executed.  F  From looking at the values from the SP register in the debugger, you 4 may be able to tell if it is sane or some bad value.  E Examining the data that is on the stack may give you some clue as to   what put it on there.   H The alloca() sugestion was a good one.  Can you use a C MACRO to detect = if it was given a negative value for the ammount to allocate?    static void * safe_alloca(foo) {       if (foo & 0x8000000)           lib$signal(SS$_DEBUG);       return _ALLOCA(foo);  }   
 #ifdef alloca 
 #undef alloca  #endif" #define alloca(_x) safe_alloca(_x)  F You can do the same with memset, memcpy, and bzero and other routines.  E IIRC: the lib$signal(SS$_DEBUG) will trip the code into the debugger   when it is executed.    F Many C routines that normally return a positive integer will return a I negative number if they encounter an error.  This is especially the case  H for C socket routines that may not be implemented in the TCP/IP program 
 installed.  ; If this is not checked it cause stack or memory corruption.      -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2002 06:24:33 -0800 From: wingwong@witty.com (wing)  Subject: How to tail file?= Message-ID: <873e96d6.0202100624.5a50ba9a@posting.google.com>   T I am finding a way to tail a file (just like to tail a log file in Unix) in openvms.  ' I have try the type command as follows.    type fileNmae /tail/continue    9 But the display does not updated as the log file updated.    Thanks,    Wing   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:17:02 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: How to tail file?, Message-ID: <3C669CFE.79C5DBDC@videotron.ca>   wing wrote:  > type fileNmae /tail/continue > ; > But the display does not updated as the log file updated.e  0 you can specify type/tail/continuous/interval=10  M The interval (in seconds) determins how often TYPE wakes up to see if the logd file has been updated.    F Note that if the application just writes to a file without any specialJ handling, then the file remains empty from another process's point of viewL until the file is closed. (i.e. the end of fiel pointer needs to get updated' so that TYPE sees that it has changed).4   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:29:57 +0100h, From: "Waard, D.G.A. de" <deWaard@WT.TNO.NL>& Subject: HSZ40, how to enable logfile.C Message-ID: <EC85E7391071D511AC140008C7F37BC22F1476@wt15.wt.tno.nl>   	 Hi there,h  P I have a quick question, is it possible to log the events that occurs on a HSZ40I RAID controller (Alpha OpenVMS v7.2) to a log-file instead of a terminal.C   thanx    Dannie de Waardv TNO Automotive The Netherlandsn! URL: http://www.automotive.tno.nl    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:25:27 +0100 , From: "Bart Zorn" <B.Zorn@TrueBit.nospam.nl>* Subject: Re: HSZ40, how to enable logfile.? Message-ID: <3c6666b7$0$90065$e4fe514c@dreader1.news.xs4all.nl>e  7 "Waard, D.G.A. de" <deWaard@WT.TNO.NL> wrote in messageM= news:EC85E7391071D511AC140008C7F37BC22F1476@wt15.wt.tno.nl...i > Hi there,e >eL > I have a quick question, is it possible to log the events that occurs on a HSZ40-K > RAID controller (Alpha OpenVMS v7.2) to a log-file instead of a terminal.0 >1 > thanx0 >  > Dannie de Waardn > TNO Automotive > The Netherlands:# > URL: http://www.automotive.tno.nl3  J Probably the cheapest solution is to connect the console port of the HSZ40H to a serial port of your Alpha, and have a simple DCL procedure copy the events to disk.?  9 A more complete solution is a Console management product.h   HTH-  	 Bart Zorn2 TrueBit B.V.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:55:42 GMT " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> Subject: OT: Virus Warning0 Message-ID: <ORv98.482$Yf1.2586@typhoon.bart.nl>  : My W98 system got infected by a virus 9 Feb 13:00 (UCT+1).J It was a W32/Magic32 virus that transmits itself via the Outlook (Express)
 address book.eA Sophos cleaned the system. If you received email from my account,o please remove it; don't opn it.a  * My apologies for not noticing this sooner.  
 Hans Vlems   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:48:36 GMTc From: DancingNude69@aol.com () Subject: Remember me? = Message-ID: <200202101648.g1AGmaS20766@rabbit.web.magmom.net>a  ? Below is the result of your feedback form.  It was submitted byeA  (DancingNude69@aol.com) on Sunday, February 10, 2002 at 16:48:36tK ---------------------------------------------------------------------------t   message: < a href="http://r.aol.com/cgi/redir-complex?url=http://server501.hypermart.net/pleasure69">hey heres my link to my webcam, you can watch me live now, so do you have a cam?</a>   K ---------------------------------------------------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 01:56:03 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>( Subject: Re: setting the record straight, Message-ID: <3C661983.4040804@tsoft-inc.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote:   > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > ] >>In article <3C65F1B2.FDEE9A29@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:s >> >>K >>>In such case, IA32 would make an excellent Plan-B. Breaks the Alpha ties K >>>and get you onto many millions of Proliants, etc. where VMS is currentlyaH >>>locked out. Of course, you can't support every mobo/chipset - this isE >>>understadn and/or taken as given. Having the option of a supportedpJ >>>mobo/chipset would break the Alpha ties as easily regardless of whether >>>the CPU is IA32 or IA64.  >>>lD >>No, porting VAX VMS to another 32-bit chip would be _considerably_? >>more difficult than porting Alpha VMS to another 64-bit chip.  >> > > > So, then why not "backport" Alpha VMS (RISC) to IA32 (CISC)? > H > I'm sure the answer is obvious to those "in the know", just not to the/ > likes of me ... or was Emerald a fabrication?  >  >   I Larry has pointed out a real issue.  VAX/VMS is real VAX dependant.  The rE Alpha port got rid of a bunch of hardware dependancies.  It also, at eH this time, has many things that require a 64 bit CPU.  Yes, anything is H possible, but removing some of the new features of Alpha VMS is sort of E going backwards, and what's the point of doing that.  In a time when tH both Intel and AMD are moving to 64 bit CPUs, migrating back to 32 bits % is, to put it mildly, not very smart.    Dave   --  4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2002 05:56:16 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t( Subject: Re: setting the record straight3 Message-ID: <vJdSgRJzJ4PV@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  [ In article <3C65F98B.D14C48B4@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:i > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> e^ >> In article <3C65F1B2.FDEE9A29@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: >> ,M >> > In such case, IA32 would make an excellent Plan-B. Breaks the Alpha ties M >> > and get you onto many millions of Proliants, etc. where VMS is currentlynJ >> > locked out. Of course, you can't support every mobo/chipset - this isG >> > understadn and/or taken as given. Having the option of a supported L >> > mobo/chipset would break the Alpha ties as easily regardless of whether >> > the CPU is IA32 or IA64.m >>  E >> No, porting VAX VMS to another 32-bit chip would be _considerably_ @ >> more difficult than porting Alpha VMS to another 64-bit chip. > > > So, then why not "backport" Alpha VMS (RISC) to IA32 (CISC)?  B Because that would be as difficult as porting VAX VMS to Alpha VMSC and would require removal of features that are specific to 64-bits.,F VMS does _not_ need what Sun had -- Solaris for SPARC and Solaris-lite	 for IA32.j   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:26:55 +0000 (UTC)3 From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk( Subject: Re: setting the record straight+ Message-ID: <a45sev$bpv$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>c  W In article <3C661983.4040804@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:u >David J. Dachtera wrote:h >d >> Larry Kilgallen wrote:r >>  ^ >>>In article <3C65F1B2.FDEE9A29@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: >>>w >>>hL >>>>In such case, IA32 would make an excellent Plan-B. Breaks the Alpha tiesL >>>>and get you onto many millions of Proliants, etc. where VMS is currentlyI >>>>locked out. Of course, you can't support every mobo/chipset - this is F >>>>understadn and/or taken as given. Having the option of a supportedK >>>>mobo/chipset would break the Alpha ties as easily regardless of whether  >>>>the CPU is IA32 or IA64. >>>>E >>>No, porting VAX VMS to another 32-bit chip would be _considerably_h@ >>>more difficult than porting Alpha VMS to another 64-bit chip. >>>b >> d? >> So, then why not "backport" Alpha VMS (RISC) to IA32 (CISC)?  >> iI >> I'm sure the answer is obvious to those "in the know", just not to the 0 >> likes of me ... or was Emerald a fabrication? >> o >>   >iJ >Larry has pointed out a real issue.  VAX/VMS is real VAX dependant.  The F >Alpha port got rid of a bunch of hardware dependancies.  It also, at I >this time, has many things that require a 64 bit CPU.  Yes, anything is  I >possible, but removing some of the new features of Alpha VMS is sort of oF >going backwards, and what's the point of doing that.  In a time when I >both Intel and AMD are moving to 64 bit CPUs, migrating back to 32 bits  & >is, to put it mildly, not very smart. >i  G Since as I understand it AMD's plans are to move over totally to HammereI this would seem to be a fairly good plan B. Anyone who buys a PC based onwP AMD chips in future will be able to Windows (in 32bit mode and possibly later inJ 64bit mode) and will also be able to use the box with VMS (in 64bit mode).  K (And if Intel's x86-64 bit development were to be compatible with Hammer soa much the better.)1      
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:33:41 +0000 (UTC)h From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk( Subject: Re: setting the record straight+ Message-ID: <a45srl$ctj$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   L In article <a45sev$bpv$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes:X >In article <3C661983.4040804@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: >>David J. Dachtera wrote: >> >>> Larry Kilgallen wrote: >>> _ >>>>In article <3C65F1B2.FDEE9A29@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  >>>> >>>> >oH >Since as I understand it AMD's plans are to move over totally to HammerJ >this would seem to be a fairly good plan B. Anyone who buys a PC based onQ >AMD chips in future will be able to Windows (in 32bit mode and possibly later inpK >64bit mode) and will also be able to use the box with VMS (in 64bit mode).o > L >(And if Intel's x86-64 bit development were to be compatible with Hammer so >much the better.) >i   Sorry to add to my own post.L However we may need more than one plan B since I am not sure how well HammerE would do at the high end. Hence you would probably also need either aS+ resurrection of Alpha or a port to power-4.-  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:28:32 -0500r( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>( Subject: Re: setting the record straightA Message-ID: <20020210092613.G7548-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>l  ( On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, David Froble wrote:   >eF >                                                       In a time whenI > both Intel and AMD are moving to 64 bit CPUs, migrating back to 32 bitsi' > is, to put it mildly, not very smart.e  E True, but then, killing the future of the only 64bit processor it was F currently running on before a replacement actually existed wasn't very
 smart either.    bill   -- WJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2002 10:34:02 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t( Subject: Re: setting the record straight3 Message-ID: <KvlbQjwiyzD4@eisner.encompasserve.org>>  L In article <a45sev$bpv$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes:  I > Since as I understand it AMD's plans are to move over totally to HammereK > this would seem to be a fairly good plan B. Anyone who buys a PC based onsR > AMD chips in future will be able to Windows (in 32bit mode and possibly later inL > 64bit mode) and will also be able to use the box with VMS (in 64bit mode).  C But the question was, why not port VMS to IA32.  AMD in 64-bit modec is _not_ IA32.  B Right now, Compaq has an agreement with Intel that Itanium will be
 their target.e   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2002 10:35:53 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i( Subject: Re: setting the record straight3 Message-ID: <2jBhdKmjsYJg@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  L In article <a45srl$ctj$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes:  N > However we may need more than one plan B since I am not sure how well HammerG > would do at the high end. Hence you would probably also need either af- > resurrection of Alpha or a port to power-4.t  D I am not sure who "we" is.  Compaq, the folks who can do anything in6 this area, have made an agreement to focus on Itanium.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:31:34 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>( Subject: Re: setting the record straightA Message-ID: <W7y98.62432$Jo3.3941169@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:2jBhdKmjsYJg@eisner.encompasserve.org...CF > In article <a45srl$ctj$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes:0 >YI > > However we may need more than one plan B since I am not sure how well9 HammerI > > would do at the high end. Hence you would probably also need either au/ > > resurrection of Alpha or a port to power-4.- >-F > I am not sure who "we" is.  Compaq, the folks who can do anything in8 > this area, have made an agreement to focus on Itanium.  J It would seem reasonable to suspect that 'we' refers to customers.  But ifH Compaq does not supply what they believe they need, they can always look
 elsewhere.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:04:43 -0500.- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>(( Subject: Re: setting the record straight, Message-ID: <3C66B634.39A79AA1@videotron.ca>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:D > Right now, Compaq has an agreement with Intel that Itanium will be > their target.h  N Since Compaq has not released nor filed the details of its deal with Intel, weK don't know what the agreement with Intel is all about. Would Compaq/HP havelM been stupid enough to sign an exclusive deal preventing Compaq/HP from buyingAI AMD or Power chips ? If so, that would be an anti-trust issue, similar tolJ American Airlines's deal with Boeing where the clause that committed AA to9 buying ONLY boeing aircraft for 20 years was invalidated.d  K Until Compaq/HP release/file the details of thatdeal with Intel, all we caniF state is that Alpha development was stopped, ex-Digital employees wereM trafered from Compaq to Intel payroll and Compaq announced it would Port NSK, 4 Tru64 and VMS to IA64. (Tru64 port cancelled later).  I We don't know what sort of financial or legal issues are involved in thatSM deal. *If* Compaq were to reveal that it gave away its right to choose a chip1N supplier for the next 20 years, I bet shareholders would drive a stake through$ the Capellas/Winkler team very fast.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:12:53 +0100e From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Re: Suggested ECOs?& Message-ID: <3C663995.3000709@home.nl>  F Actually there are not that many patches. The list may seem long, but H for every patch there are about 5 entries. There is the patch itself, a F web page with a description, the same description in a text file etc. @ Just read the web pages, and see if you are using that piece of H software. If you are, then you can decide if you want / need to install 
 the patch.  H For the Alpha there are many more patches (necessary  :-( ) , and patch & bundles are composed of those patches.        William Barnett-Lewis wrote:  G >I'm running 7.2 from the hobbyist distro on a Vaxstation 4000/90. I'vedE >looked through the mass of ECO's that are out there, but unlike, foreI >example Sun and Solaris, there does not seem to be a bundle of suggestedi? >patches to apply to bring a system up to a given patch level. s >eG >Is there a list somewhere of what would be appropriate for me to applyr< >to my system here at home to take care of the worst issues? >pB >Perhaps I'm simply not seeing the VMS equivalent, but Sun's patch7 >clusters are a really big help at moments like theses.e >d >TIA,s >t >William >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:16:30 +0100-9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>8 Subject: Re: Suggested ECOs?' Message-ID: <3C66649E.AF1B09ED@aaa.com>g   I'v found this page :4? http://riogrande.digital.com.au/pub/ecoinfo/ecoinfo/version.html very usefull and easy-to-read.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > H > Is there a list somewhere of what would be appropriate for me to apply= > to my system here at home to take care of the worst issues?- >-   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 17:39:09 GMTf0 From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com> Subject: Re: Suggested ECOs?+ Message-ID: <3C66B035.46C8E153@mailbag.com>    Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:  >  > I'v found this page :tA > http://riogrande.digital.com.au/pub/ecoinfo/ecoinfo/version.htmt  > very usefull and easy-to-read. >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm.  >  > William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > >iJ > > Is there a list somewhere of what would be appropriate for me to apply? > > to my system here at home to take care of the worst issues?a > >r  . Very cool page. Thank you for pointing it out.   William  -- f* You better watch out    What you wish for;+ It better be worth it   So much to die for.--                                 Courtney Love1   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 14:03:42 +01000( From: "Nico de Jong" <nico@farumdata.dk>Y Subject: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      como0 Message-ID: <JKv98.137$d37.2217@news.get2net.dk>  ) <greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk> skrev i en): nyhedsmeddelelse:3c735ee7.63714673@news.btopenworld.com... >aD > I'm from Yorkshire, I'm young but old enough to understand what myA > elders are saying, even if I don't use that language myself. My:H > Grandad's a great one for coming out with stuff and hilarious phrases. --I We are enjoying a TV-serie "Constable" for the time being. We also _LOVE_eC the James Herriot series. The language they speak is just beautifuls  G > But yup, Scots was influenced more by the Vikings, and apparently hastH > a lot of common roots with modern Danish or Swedish, where English has> > a lot of Dutch in it. And of course the French and Germanic. --L Quite right. Look at all those citynames with ....by. BY is the scandinavian word for... cityD A special name comes to my mind (it is not my intention to embarrass6 anyone): Grimsby. "Grim" is the danish word for "ugly"   > I believe E > it was Giles Todd who said you can get by in Dutch just by speaking  > English in a silly accent. ---i& Here I really must put down a protest.I I would rather say that English is more like French with a funny accent !,G My background for saying so, is that I lived my first 20 years or so inOG Holland (learning French, English and German), then took half a year inWF Germany, and have lived in Denmark since 69, with lots of customers in Norway and Sweden.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:31:25 -0500s1 From: "Island (hpaq.net)" <dbturner@islandco.com>aJ Subject: Re: Swiss ADSL - Any success with green.ch ADSL? Feedback please./ Message-ID: <u6dbj43s98tpdb@news.supernews.com>    Paul  E Here in Savannah (I don't have it yet) a lot of people are buying DSLm. routers and letting the router do all the work  I It is then hardware independant and can be attached to basically anythingw with a NIC and TCPIP  - For a ocupl eof hundred US$ that should do it    DT: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> wrote in message. news:VA.00000532.1c6a4eb2@bluewin.delete.ch... > Hoi zusamme! >/E > I have just wasted a lot of time and money (2 Sfr per minute on themG > support line) trying to get my ADSL connection working. It fails with A > an authentication error and the support guy finally suggested a-B > hardware problem, either with the ADSL box or the Swisscom line. >2D > Has anyone out there had success with green.ch, or should I simply, > cancel the contract and send the kit back? >1 > mfg0 > ___f > Paul Sture
 > Switzerlandr >r   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2002 20:14:26 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>7 Subject: Re: The stupidity of granting software patentse- Message-ID: <87g049v8il.fsf@prep.synonet.com>>  ) carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes:   A > The amount of money the jury awarded the plaintif may have beenpE > rediculous, but all she originally asked for was that McDonalds payH+ > her medical bill for the burn treatments.p  E McD's was warned about the coffee. But dropping the temp meant peopleUF could taste the quality (NOT!!), and they would not spend the 0.2c/cupD to buy better coffee. The jury estimated the total from coffee sales and awarded it to her.   -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.,@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:24:29 -0500u+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>e Subject: RE: The Vision ThingfT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1C6F@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   JF -  E >> Had Compaq been commited to Alpha, I suspect that Gates would havet% happily funded Windows on Alpha...<<<e   ROTFL ...=20  % - IBM dropped NT on their HW platform & - MIPS dropped NT on their HW platform1 - and finally Compaq dropped NT on their platformt  F ok, ok - so it took Compaq a little longer to get to the same point as
 IBM and MIPS.b   :-)    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanta Compaq Canada Corp.: Professional Servicese Voice: 613-592-4660K Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca] Sent: February 8, 2002 2:09 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt Subject: Re: The Vision Thing      Bill Todd wrote:F > A company committed to Alpha would have happily continued to pay the Gates $ > royalty for that kind of exposure.  B Had Compaq been commited to Alpha, I suspect that Gates would have happilyiC funded Windows on Alpha because of the potential of Alpga to becomeoF mainstream. But as soon as it became clear that the new owner of Alpha wasn'tE interested in leveraging its potential, then it is very reasonable to  expect# Microsoft to drop the ball on this.w   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:25:09 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r Subject: Re: The Vision ThingV, Message-ID: <3C669EE4.2CDB40E8@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:' > - IBM dropped NT on their HW platformw( > - MIPS dropped NT on their HW platform3 > - and finally Compaq dropped NT on their platformt  M Funny, as far as the PowerPC version of NT, the story I had heard was that it ? was Microsoft that dropped support for it because of low sales.   I When NT first came out, it was Microsoft that wanted it to run on as many O platforms as possible, hence the availability on wintel, mips, power and alpha..  J I do not know what sort of deals existed between the chip manufacturer andN Microsoft, but I suspect that depending on what brainwashing one has received,G the story is dramatically different (eg: IBM dropped NT on power versuss  Microsoft dropping NT on Power).  D As far as Power is concerned, stating that "IBM dropped NT" might beI misleading since Power was still a full fledged partnership between IBM , K Apple and Motorola at that time. So if it was in fact the chip manufacturer / that dropped support, it would have been all 3.   M This is why I find the stories of Microsoft dropping support more believable.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 08:37:43 -0700r$ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>+ Subject: Using BACKUP to create directoriesn) Message-ID: <3C6693C6.D2E4A7E1@cha.ab.ca>   G I need to build a saveset containing just empty directories, use Decnet A to copy the saveset to a remote node, and then recreate the emptyuH directories on the remote node.  However, BACKUP does not copy the emptyG directory files.  It just creates an empty saveset.  Does anyone have an	 solution?A   My attempt and results:h  9 $ BACKUP DSA803:[TEMP3...]*.DIR TEMP3.SAV /LIST=TEMP3.LISyB %BACKUP-W-NOFILES, no files selected from DSA803:[TEMP3...]*.DIR;* $r $ TYP TEMP3.LISh Listing of BACKUP operations   Written by:        USERs" UIC:               [000050,000004]* Date:              10-FEB-2002 08:33:50.750 Command:           BACKUP DSA803:[TEMP3...]*.DIR TEMP3.SAV/LIST=TEMP3.LIS+ Operating system:  OpenVMS AXP version V7.1t BACKUP version:    V6.2o CPU ID register:   80000000w Node name:         J:: Written on:        _J$DKB0:  Block size:        33040 Group size:        10t Buffer count:      188     End of BACKUP operation        -- Leea  ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authority ? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSCs4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9-   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2002 09:41:27 -0800% From: mb301@hotmail.com (Mark Bowman)g/ Subject: Re: Using BACKUP to create directoriesq= Message-ID: <1d08b916.0202100941.5ff87f70@posting.google.com>   U Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote in message news:<3C6693C6.D2E4A7E1@cha.ab.ca>...bI > I need to build a saveset containing just empty directories, use Decnet C > to copy the saveset to a remote node, and then recreate the emptyDJ > directories on the remote node.  However, BACKUP does not copy the emptyI > directory files.  It just creates an empty saveset.  Does anyone have al > solution?a >  > My attempt and results:  > ; > $ BACKUP DSA803:[TEMP3...]*.DIR TEMP3.SAV /LIST=TEMP3.LIS(D > %BACKUP-W-NOFILES, no files selected from DSA803:[TEMP3...]*.DIR;* > $  > $ TYP TEMP3.LISS > Listing of BACKUP operationf >  > Written by:        USER $ > UIC:               [000050,000004], > Date:              10-FEB-2002 08:33:50.752 > Command:           BACKUP DSA803:[TEMP3...]*.DIR > TEMP3.SAV/LIST=TEMP3.LIS- > Operating system:  OpenVMS AXP version V7.1l > BACKUP version:    V6.2  > CPU ID register:   80000000p > Node name:         J:: > Written on:        _J$DKB0:  > Block size:        33040 > Group size:        10- > Buffer count:      188 >  >  > End of BACKUP operationG   -------------- Try something like:R  B $ backup DSA803:[TEMP3...]/sel=*.dir TEMP3.SAV/save/list=temp3.lis* This should create a file called temp3.savH You should then be able to copy this single file across to another node.   Url reference:@ http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6258/6048pro_019.html   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Feb 2002 10:38:55 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)/ Subject: Re: Using BACKUP to create directoriesr= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0202101038.2051dd45@posting.google.com>   U Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote in message news:<3C6693C6.D2E4A7E1@cha.ab.ca>... I > I need to build a saveset containing just empty directories, use DecnetrC > to copy the saveset to a remote node, and then recreate the emptydJ > directories on the remote node.  However, BACKUP does not copy the emptyI > directory files.  It just creates an empty saveset.  Does anyone have ai > solution?  >  > My attempt and results:y > ; > $ BACKUP DSA803:[TEMP3...]*.DIR TEMP3.SAV /LIST=TEMP3.LIS.D > %BACKUP-W-NOFILES, no files selected from DSA803:[TEMP3...]*.DIR;*    D This should work. Try appending /SAVE_SET to TEMP3.SAV. You must useD the /SAVE_SET qualifier when creating a save set on disk. Otherwise,E BACKUP assumes you are copying files instead of saving them in a save  set.     > $ TYP TEMP3.LISe > Listing of BACKUP operationi >  > Written by:        USERi$ > UIC:               [000050,000004], > Date:              10-FEB-2002 08:33:50.752 > Command:           BACKUP DSA803:[TEMP3...]*.DIR > TEMP3.SAV/LIST=TEMP3.LIS- > Operating system:  OpenVMS AXP version V7.1  > BACKUP version:    V6.2l > CPU ID register:   80000000n > Node name:         J:: > Written on:        _J$DKB0:  > Block size:        33040 > Group size:        10e > Buffer count:      188 >  >  > End of BACKUP operationi    D I find it curious that you have BACKUP version V6.2 on VMS V7.1. Why is that?    7 Dislcaimer: JMHO               "I saw The Who on their  < Alan E. Feldman                 *first* final tour."   -- me afeldman!~!~!~!gfigroup.com.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:53:01 -0500n+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>-Q Subject: RE: VMS usage in UK hospitals, was: Re: The Inq : The OpenVMS on ItaniumrT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1C6E@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Graham,n  ) Intersystems testimonials and references:K  = http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/partner_quotes2.htmleF " InterSystems Corporation, Paul Grabscheid, Vice President, Strategic? Planning:    "With thousands of mission-critical Alpha systems,tB InterSystems' customers depend on Compaq for the highest levels ofF reliability and scalability. Joining the proven OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIXF operating systems with the latest processor technology from Intel willF enable our Cache Post-Relational Database to continue to deliver these? benefits in healthcare, financial services and other industriesc worldwide. "   Previous Intersystems info -= http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/intersystems/ 2 http://www.e-dbms.com/analysts/2000/benchmark.html   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant0 Compaq Canada Corp.< Professional Serviceso Voice: 613-592-4660s Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----5 From: Graham Burley [mailto:100625.30@compuserve.com]t Sent: February 9, 2002 8:49 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.CompF Subject: Re: VMS usage in UK hospitals, was: Re: The Inq : The OpenVMS
 on Itanium     Simon Clubley wrote: >=20G > Any other sightings of VMS systems in UK hospitals ? I didn't realiseeC > that they were in common hospital use over here. As a data point,t  ? I work in one that has many of its core applications (e.g. A&E,l? Pathology) on VMS, but sadly VMS is in decline in UK hospitals.o? I'm sure that if we bought these applications now VMS would note be part of the suppliers bid.e  H > York General Hospital runs Tru64, or more accurately, during a visit aE > few months ago, I noticed they were advertising for Tru64 staff; noq mentiond	 >.of VMS.o  = Cache or Oracle on Tru64 is common in UK health, there's been 6 many a VMS to Tru64 migration over the last few years.  @ Last time I looked InterSystems had not committed to an IPF port; of Cache on either Tru64 or VMS. InterSystems announced thes> end-of-development of DSM back in 2000, so that isn't going to< make it to IPF. If VMS is going to have a share in health itA needs Mumps, and in the UK that equates to InterSystems products.>   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:31:01 +0000 (UTC)y" From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.ukY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      comt4 Message-ID: <3c735ee7.63714673@news.btopenworld.com>  @ There was a "great vowel shift" around 1400 or 1500 when all theF vowels in England, as well as Germany and some of Europe IIRC, changed8 their sound. It happened very quickly and was to do withD communications or something. The Queen's English (and if that's whatC She Herself speaks I'm surprised that's what they chose on purpose)I@ was meant to be a standard because at one point people literally couldn't understand each other.   F Scots, some of them claim, is actually a separate language rather thanC a dialect of English. It does have a lot of unique words for commoniB things, and a different grammar. But so do most accents in the UK.D There's loads of fabulous dialect words from all over the place thatE have fallen out of use, and loads more that haven't and could be used  to confuse Americans with.  B I'm from Yorkshire, I'm young but old enough to understand what my? elders are saying, even if I don't use that language myself. My-F Grandad's a great one for coming out with stuff and hilarious phrases.    E But yup, Scots was influenced more by the Vikings, and apparently has3F a lot of common roots with modern Danish or Swedish, where English hasF a lot of Dutch in it. And of course the French and Germanic. I believeC it was Giles Todd who said you can get by in Dutch just by speaking  English in a silly accent.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  H if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's@ kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side5 effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche)-   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.080 ************************