0 INFO-VAX	Tue, 12 Feb 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 83      Contents:( Re: Advanced Server as a "client" ?  :>) Re: Am I being debugged? Re: Am I being debugged? Re: BEA MessageQ (DECMessageQ) BLISS for C Programmers URL  Re: BLISS for C Programmers URL  Re: BLISS for C Programmers URL  Re: BLISS for C Programmers URL  Re: BLISS for C Programmers URL  RE: BLISS for C Programmers URL  Re: BLISS for C Programmers URL  CC diagnostic  question  Re: CC diagnostic  question  RE: CC diagnostic  question  Re: CC diagnostic  question  Re: CC diagnostic  question  Re: CC diagnostic  question  Re: csws_php and Multinet? Re: csws_php and Multinet?' Re: CTLPAGES - Monitoring Free P1 Space  Re: DECbrouter 90T2 password- Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew?  Re: FIND vs. DFU Re: How to kill a hung process?  Re: How to tail file? P Re: HP Sets March 19 for Special Meeting of Shareowners to Vote on Compaq MergerP Re: HP Sets March 19 for Special Meeting of Shareowners to Vote on Compaq Merger. Re: In stock: ES40 Model 2 USD7895 VMS Ready !. Re: In stock: ES40 Model 2 USD7895 VMS Ready ! Installing a DSSI drive ) Re: internals question: mode of execution 6 Re: JDK 1.3.1 past due (feature not found in the beta)  Re: MIME Compliant Mail from VMS  Re: MIME Compliant Mail from VMS/ Re: Newbie licensing question - TCPIP services? P Re: Newbie licensing question - TCPIP services?                                 & Re: NFS mounts and RMS File Attributes Re: OT: Virus Warning  Re: OT: Virus Warning  PIPE: sending commands to MAIL" Re: PIPE: sending commands to MAIL" Re: PIPE: sending commands to MAIL" Re: PIPE: sending commands to MAIL" Re: PIPE: sending commands to MAIL) Re: problems with a (dead?) MicroVAX 3300 ) Re: problems with a (dead?) MicroVAX 3300 ) Re: problems with a (dead?) MicroVAX 3300  Re: Purveyor runs VMS Perl!  Re: Question about Group ID  Re: Question about Group ID  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: SMTP Spam Filter.  Re: SMTP Spam Filter.  SORT to indexed file Re: SORT to indexed file Re: Suggested ECOs?  Re: Suggested ECOs?  Re: Suggested ECOs? E Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise P Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise     of    P Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of      co. Re: The stupidity of granting software patents. Re: The stupidity of granting software patents& Re: Transferring O/S to new hard drive& Re: Transferring O/S to new hard drive& Re: Transferring O/S to new hard drive& Re: Transferring O/S to new hard drive& Re: Transferring O/S to new hard drive& Re: Transferring O/S to new hard drive  Ultimate Workstation vs. AS 1200$ Re: Ultimate Workstation vs. AS 1200$ Re: Ultimate Workstation vs. AS 1200, Re: VMS Spokesperson Nominee For Ad CampaignH Re: VMS usage in UK hospitals, was: Re: The Inq : The OpenVMS on ItaniumH Re: VMS usage in UK hospitals, was: Re: The Inq : The OpenVMS on ItaniumH RE: VMS usage in UK hospitals, was: Re: The Inq : The OpenVMS on Itanium! VMS users group in Columbus Ohio? % Re: VMS users group in Columbus Ohio? 6 Re: Where does VMS fit in here? (Was Re: HP admits...)6 RE: Where does VMS fit in here? (Was Re: HP admits...) Re: x29 AND DTE ADDRESS < RE: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The dP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      comP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      com Re: [off-topic] eighty et al...   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 11:35:47 -0800 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> 1 Subject: Re: Advanced Server as a "client" ?  :>) * Message-ID: <3C681D13.9C5B9EF@caltech.edu>   MikeG wrote:  D > As well, I believe SAMBA has some form of limited client component% > which allows for what you may seek.   H It's called smbclient.  Think of it as an FTP program for SMB transfers.I It's more than adequate for copying files/directories from a Windows box.    > > , > >As we have some NT Servers + 2000 Servers+ > >with very large disks, somebody told us:  > > @ > >  - "It's easy, install your Advanced Server V7.2 for OpenVMS9 > >    (yes, we have it "now" installed), act as a client 3 > >    for yours NT & 2000 servers, and yours users 1 > >    can have theirs homedirs in these machines 1 > >    as if the homedirs are in your VMS boxes."   C That will NOT work with smbclient.  We asked for that functionality O repeatedly (both to contact Windows and Macs) from VMS and DEC never delivered. D One of many many examples of their being deaf to customer requests.   % It is no wonder they no longer exist.   O Compaq is just as bad.  The main reason they will probably still be around in a  few months as a O separate company is that the HP stockholders are very likely decide that Compaq  isn't worth  buying!    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:56:37 -0800 - From: dundas@caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) ! Subject: Re: Am I being debugged? < Message-ID: <dundas-1102021256370001@dundas-mac.caltech.edu>  ! Is this what you are looking for:   <    .title  isdebug - is image linked with debug information?         .ident  /28-Jan-1985/          .enabl  debug          .dsabl  globalG         .extrn  jd_image_act, malloc, free, sys$open, sys$close, __fabr  ;  ; *** Edit History   *** ; - ; 12-Oct-1984  Original creation and testing.  ; > ; 28-Jan-1985   Use callg instead of calls for jd_image_act(). ;     .library "sys$library:lib" 
    $fabdef
    $ihddef
    $secdef'    .psect   jd_ro_code, nowrt, pic, shr  ; ' ; function bool isdebug ([str]) varargs  ; char *str; /* optional */  ; 4 ; If str is specified, it is the name of the file to4 ; check  for  debug enabled (no check is made to see4 ; if it is really  an  executable  or  not).  If  no4 ; argument   is  specified,  the  current  image  is ; checked.   ; *    .entry  isdebug, ^m<r2, r3, r4, r5, r6>*    tstb  (ap)        ; any args specified?*    bneq  20$         ; yes, different codeM         callg   (ap), g^jd_image_act    ; get the local image activator stuff >    movl    20(r0), r0              ; get link flag information1    bbs     #ihd$v_lnkdebug, r0, 10$ ; exit if set 2    clrl    r0                      ; indicate none 10$:(    ret                             ; ... 20$:<    pushl   #fab$k_bln              ; stack the size of a fab<    calls   #1, g^malloc            ; allocate one on the flyC    movl    r0, r6                  ; save the address in a good reg 6    bneq    30$                     ; skip around if ok2    brw     error                   ; exit on error 30$:D    movc3   #fab$k_bln, g^__fabr, (r6) ; copy a template readonly fab2    locc    #0, #-1, @4(ap)         ; find the null7    subl    4(ap), r1               ; compute the length 3    cvtlb   r1, fab$b_fns(r6)       ; set the length =    movl    4(ap), fab$l_fna(r6)    ; set the filename address 9    bisl    #fab$m_ufo, fab$l_fop(r6) ; set user file open 2    pushl   r6                      ; stack the fab;    calls   #1, g^sys$open          ; open the file with RMS 3    blbc    r0, error1              ; exit on errors :    movab   -16(sp), sp             ; get local stack spaceF    movzwl  #^x200, -4(fp)          ; safe starting address in P0 space)    movzwl  #^x200, -8(fp)          ; same 2    $crmpsc_s -                     ; map a section       inadr = -8(fp), -        retadr = -16(fp), -        acmode = #0, -       flags = #sec$m_expreg, -       chan = fab$l_stv(r6), - /       pagcnt = #1, -          ; only map 1 page <       pfc = #1                ; page fault cluster size of 1(    blbc  r0, error1     ; exit on errorsE    movl  -16(fp), r2    ; get the starting virtual address of section 3    movl    ihd$l_lnkflags(r2), r3  ; get link flags 5    $deltva_s -       ; delete what we created earlier        inadr = -16(fp) !    pushl r6       ; stack the fab -    calls #1, g^sys$close      ; close the fab 7    pushl r6       ; stack the fab to return to pool mem )    calls #1, g^free     ; free the memory 6    bbs     #ihd$v_lnkdebug, r3, error ; indicate debug2    clrl    r0                      ; indicate none    ret            ; ...  error1: 7    pushl r6       ; stack the fab to return to pool mem )    calls #1, g^free     ; free the memory  error:;    movzbl  #1, r0                  ; indicate debug enabled     ret            ; ...       .end   < In article <3C67A834.989AD54@herald.ox.ac.uk>, Peter Harding  <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk> wrote:  E > I could be a bit clearer: I know about toggling the bit/byte in the I > image header to control whether the thing runs in debug mode by default F > or not, but what I want is to know what to replace ***** with in the > following: >  >   if ( ***** ) { > / >     /* I'm being debugged. Act accordingly */  >  >   } else { > 2 >     /* I'm not being debugged. Run as normal. */ >  >   }; > > > I know it goes against the 'spirit' of debugging in that theI > not-debugged clause will be rather hard to debug, but it's what I need.  > 	 > Thanks!  >  > Joe wrote: > > I > > I've never had need to fiddle with it however - assuming I understand H > > your question I seem to have some dim memory of a bit (byte?) in theI > > image header that controls this. The linker manual would be the place 
 > > to start.  > >  > > Joe  > > < > > Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message+ news:<3C666291.CC53D4F1@herald.ox.ac.uk>...  > > > Howdy y'all  > > > J > > > Small question: how can my (C today, but tomorrow will be different)4 > > > program tell if it is being run in debug mode? > > > * > > > I'm not shy of system service calls. > > >  > > >  > > > Thanks very much!    --   John A. Dundas III2 Director, Information Technology Services, Caltech+ Mail Code: 014-81, Pasadena, CA  91125-8100 A Phone: 626.395.3392 FAX: 626.449.6973 <mailto:dundas@caltech.edu>    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:32:18 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG ! Subject: Re: Am I being debugged? 0 Message-ID: <00A096AA.8448CD84@SendSpamHere.ORG>  l In article <dundas-1102021256370001@dundas-mac.caltech.edu>, dundas@caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) writes:" >Is this what you are looking for: > = >   .title  isdebug - is image linked with debug information?  >        .ident  /28-Jan-1985/ >        .enabl  debug >        .dsabl  global H >        .extrn  jd_image_act, malloc, free, sys$open, sys$close, __fabr >; >; *** Edit History   ***  >;. >; 12-Oct-1984  Original creation and testing. >;? >; 28-Jan-1985   Use callg instead of calls for jd_image_act().  >; >   .library "sys$library:lib" >   $fabdef  >   $ihddef  >   $secdef ( >   .psect   jd_ro_code, nowrt, pic, shr >;( >; function bool isdebug ([str]) varargs >; char *str; /* optional */ >;5 >; If str is specified, it is the name of the file to 5 >; check  for  debug enabled (no check is made to see 5 >; if it is really  an  executable  or  not).  If  no 5 >; argument   is  specified,  the  current  image  is  >; checked.  >;+ >   .entry  isdebug, ^m<r2, r3, r4, r5, r6> + >   tstb  (ap)        ; any args specified? + >   bneq  20$         ; yes, different code N >        callg   (ap), g^jd_image_act    ; get the local image activator stuff? >   movl    20(r0), r0              ; get link flag information 2 >   bbs     #ihd$v_lnkdebug, r0, 10$ ; exit if set3 >   clrl    r0                      ; indicate none  >10$: ) >   ret                             ; ...  >20$: = >   pushl   #fab$k_bln              ; stack the size of a fab = >   calls   #1, g^malloc            ; allocate one on the fly D >   movl    r0, r6                  ; save the address in a good reg7 >   bneq    30$                     ; skip around if ok 3 >   brw     error                   ; exit on error  >30$: E >   movc3   #fab$k_bln, g^__fabr, (r6) ; copy a template readonly fab 3 >   locc    #0, #-1, @4(ap)         ; find the null 8 >   subl    4(ap), r1               ; compute the length4 >   cvtlb   r1, fab$b_fns(r6)       ; set the length> >   movl    4(ap), fab$l_fna(r6)    ; set the filename address: >   bisl    #fab$m_ufo, fab$l_fop(r6) ; set user file open3 >   pushl   r6                      ; stack the fab < >   calls   #1, g^sys$open          ; open the file with RMS4 >   blbc    r0, error1              ; exit on errors; >   movab   -16(sp), sp             ; get local stack space G >   movzwl  #^x200, -4(fp)          ; safe starting address in P0 space * >   movzwl  #^x200, -8(fp)          ; same3 >   $crmpsc_s -                     ; map a section  >      inadr = -8(fp), - >      retadr = -16(fp), - >      acmode = #0, -  >      flags = #sec$m_expreg, -  >      chan = fab$l_stv(r6), -0 >      pagcnt = #1, -          ; only map 1 page= >      pfc = #1                ; page fault cluster size of 1 ) >   blbc  r0, error1     ; exit on errors F >   movl  -16(fp), r2    ; get the starting virtual address of section4 >   movl    ihd$l_lnkflags(r2), r3  ; get link flags6 >   $deltva_s -       ; delete what we created earlier >      inadr = -16(fp)" >   pushl r6       ; stack the fab. >   calls #1, g^sys$close      ; close the fab8 >   pushl r6       ; stack the fab to return to pool mem* >   calls #1, g^free     ; free the memory7 >   bbs     #ihd$v_lnkdebug, r3, error ; indicate debug 3 >   clrl    r0                      ; indicate none  >   ret            ; ... >error1:8 >   pushl r6       ; stack the fab to return to pool mem* >   calls #1, g^free     ; free the memory >error: < >   movzbl  #1, r0                  ; indicate debug enabled >   ret            ; ... >  >   .end > = >In article <3C67A834.989AD54@herald.ox.ac.uk>, Peter Harding ! ><harding@herald.ox.ac.uk> wrote:  > F >> I could be a bit clearer: I know about toggling the bit/byte in theJ >> image header to control whether the thing runs in debug mode by defaultG >> or not, but what I want is to know what to replace ***** with in the 
 >> following:  >>   >>   if ( ***** ) {  >>  0 >>     /* I'm being debugged. Act accordingly */ >>  
 >>   } else {  >>  3 >>     /* I'm not being debugged. Run as normal. */  >>   >>   };  >>  ? >> I know it goes against the 'spirit' of debugging in that the J >> not-debugged clause will be rather hard to debug, but it's what I need. >>  
 >> Thanks! >>  
 >> Joe wrote:  >> >  J >> > I've never had need to fiddle with it however - assuming I understandI >> > your question I seem to have some dim memory of a bit (byte?) in the J >> > image header that controls this. The linker manual would be the place >> > to start. >> >   >> > Joe >> >  = >> > Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message , >news:<3C666291.CC53D4F1@herald.ox.ac.uk>... >> > > Howdy y'all >> > >K >> > > Small question: how can my (C today, but tomorrow will be different) 5 >> > > program tell if it is being run in debug mode?  >> > >+ >> > > I'm not shy of system service calls.  >> > > >> > > >> > > Thanks very much! >  >--  >John A. Dundas III 3 >Director, Information Technology Services, Caltech , >Mail Code: 014-81, Pasadena, CA  91125-8100B >Phone: 626.395.3392 FAX: 626.449.6973 <mailto:dundas@caltech.edu>     Surely an awfull lot of work.    #include <stdio.h>  ) start_here(void *transfer_vector_address, '            void *cli_parse_informaiton, *            void *image_header_information,(            void *image_file_information,             int link_status_bits,            int cli_status_bits)    {   B     if (((link_status_bits&1) == 1) && ((cli_status_bits&1) == 0))8        printf("I'm being debugged. Act accordingly.\n");     else:        printf("I'm not being debugged. Run as normal.\n");   }    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:21:25 -0000 - From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)#' Subject: Re: BEA MessageQ (DECMessageQ)p7 Message-ID: <91B293A33warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>c  > erberj@post.ch (Jakob Erber) wrote in <3c6280ee@news.post.ch>:  A >One statement of the BEA web site, about the product for VMS is:d >t >Threads not supported > 0 >Why should this be the case specificly for VMS? >r >regards >  >Jakob >l6 >"Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> schrieb im Newsbeitrag  >news:3c6261a7$1@news.post.ch...	 >> Hello,b >>F >> I'd like to know, who is using this product and with what succcess. >> >> best regardsr >> >> Jakob  E I've used DMQ (aka BMQ) extensively in an NT-front-end, VMS-back-end tK configuration; many clients, multiple back-ends.  Never lost a transaction s! (sent with guaranteed semantics).t  J I'm not sure why threads aren't supported per se, but AST's are natively, G meaning your message handler code is invoked asynchronously whenever a *K message arrives.  Of course, normal, synchronous messaging is supported as   well.   I Elsewhere in this thread you ask about shadowing disks to preserve BMQ's -F persistent storage - yes this is a good answer.  Additionally, BMQ is J cluster-aware, meaning you can have a second instance of a given queueing H group in hot-standby mode on another clustered node, ready to take over J should the original node die (assuming shared-access disks).  Never tried  this one, but it's in the docs.c  A In the 1992-1998 timeframe, I also found the support group to be hJ knowledgeable and responsive, although this experience is stale since the  product now belongs to BEA.    ws -- l   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)r The Associated Press  < ** Time flies like an arrow.  Fruit flies like a bananna. **   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 14:57:02 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: BLISS for C Programmers URL3 Message-ID: <Nox6NRqSn0xi@eisner.encompasserve.org>3  H    For those few who actually wanted it, my "BLISS for C Programmers" is4    now at http://home.worldnet.att.net/~rkoehler/VMS  B    The form is based on a "C for Fortran Programmers" class I once>    taught, but I've had no feedback from students on this one.  F    Bliss.mem was formatted for a line printer (bold by overstrike) andG    has probably lost that in the transfer.  Bliss.html was formatted byeE    Apple Works and leaves much to be desired.  The original Bliss.rnonD    is provided for those who want to make a properly formatted file.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:52:39 GMTE" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>( Subject: Re: BLISS for C Programmers URL0 Message-ID: <XWX98.787$Yf1.4055@typhoon.bart.nl>   Bob,  A thank you very much. I just started to learn Bliss and this paper  is very helpful indeed.   
 Hans Vlems  8 Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:Nox6NRqSn0xi@eisner.encompasserve.org...s >eJ >    For those few who actually wanted it, my "BLISS for C Programmers" is6 >    now at http://home.worldnet.att.net/~rkoehler/VMS > D >    The form is based on a "C for Fortran Programmers" class I once@ >    taught, but I've had no feedback from students on this one. > H >    Bliss.mem was formatted for a line printer (bold by overstrike) andI >    has probably lost that in the transfer.  Bliss.html was formatted byeG >    Apple Works and leaves much to be desired.  The original Bliss.rnooF >    is provided for those who want to make a properly formatted file. >0   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 17:48:04 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)( Subject: Re: BLISS for C Programmers URL= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0202111748.3806bfa1@posting.google.com>   h koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in message news:<Nox6NRqSn0xi@eisner.encompasserve.org>...G > For those few who actually wanted it, my "BLISS for C Programmers" iso6 >    now at http://home.worldnet.att.net/~rkoehler/VMS > D >    The form is based on a "C for Fortran Programmers" class I once@ >    taught, but I've had no feedback from students on this one. > H >    Bliss.mem was formatted for a line printer (bold by overstrike) andI >    has probably lost that in the transfer.  Bliss.html was formatted by_G >    Apple Works and leaves much to be desired.  The original Bliss.rno F >    is provided for those who want to make a properly formatted file.  G why not use bliss to create a "freevms" version so we can get away fromsG Capellas and Carly if they try to shove windows or unix down our throat  like Palmer did?   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 18:39:13 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> ( Subject: Re: BLISS for C Programmers URL0 Message-ID: <qhaduf5sq6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  * bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:I > why not use bliss to create a "freevms" version so we can get away from I > Capellas and Carly if they try to shove windows or unix down our throate > like Palmer did?  F If you're going to go to the trouble of writing a replacement for VMS,= you might as well do it in a more commonly accepted language.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:00:12 -0500;2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)( Subject: Re: BLISS for C Programmers URLK Message-ID: <rdeininger-1102022200120001@1cust106.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>b  ; In article <qhaduf5sq6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith ) <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:   + >bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes: J >> why not use bliss to create a "freevms" version so we can get away fromJ >> Capellas and Carly if they try to shove windows or unix down our throat >> like Palmer did?  > G >If you're going to go to the trouble of writing a replacement for VMS, > >you might as well do it in a more commonly accepted language.   You mean Ada, right?   :-)u   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:02:30 -0800g# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ( Subject: RE: BLISS for C Programmers URL9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEAEECAA.tom@kednos.com>*   No, I think he meant PL/I :-))   > -----Original Message-----; > From: Robert Deininger [mailto:rdeininger@mindspring.com] ) > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 7:00 PM> > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms* > Subject: Re: BLISS for C Programmers URL >e >l= > In article <qhaduf5sq6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith + > <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:> >v- > >bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:sL > >> why not use bliss to create a "freevms" version so we can get away fromL > >> Capellas and Carly if they try to shove windows or unix down our throat > >> like Palmer did?  > >.I > >If you're going to go to the trouble of writing a replacement for VMS,o@ > >you might as well do it in a more commonly accepted language. >H > You mean Ada, right? >S > :-)e >o   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 21:26:16 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)>( Subject: Re: BLISS for C Programmers URL3 Message-ID: <QomqIHnaiFRe@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <rdeininger-1102022200120001@1cust106.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:= > In article <qhaduf5sq6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith + > <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:e > , >>bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:K >>> why not use bliss to create a "freevms" version so we can get away fromeK >>> Capellas and Carly if they try to shove windows or unix down our throat_ >>> like Palmer did? >>H >>If you're going to go to the trouble of writing a replacement for VMS,? >>you might as well do it in a more commonly accepted language.c >  > You mean Ada, right?  C He didn't, but until I saw your response I was going to suggest AdaAA because doing something in a _better_ language is more important.IC Anyone who knows a couple other languages can learn Ada well enoughr for maintenance purposes.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:17:41 -0800e# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>   Subject: CC diagnostic  question9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEAAECAA.tom@kednos.com>a  0 Was rebuilding the PL/I RTL using a new compiler$ DEC C V6.0-001 on OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 got following messagee  ,             a_tmp->fdwords[sw-1] = FIX_PLUS;
 ............^RJ %CC-W-UNINIT1, The scalar variable "a_tmp" is fetched but not initialized.  K This used to work, and I have stared at the code and it seems correct.  Now L this is a warning, but I would like to clear it up.  Moreover, since this is partJ of a build, it causes MMS-F-ABORT.  I suppose I could suppress warnings on theeC the compile, but this is not a real solution.  Help is appreciated.a   Tomi   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:47:45 -0500d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> $ Subject: Re: CC diagnostic  question, Message-ID: <3C68742F.FA98BFC1@videotron.ca>   Tom Linden wrote:e. >             a_tmp->fdwords[sw-1] = FIX_PLUS; > ............^ L > %CC-W-UNINIT1, The scalar variable "a_tmp" is fetched but not initialized.  J Are you sure that the pointer to a structure "a_tmp" is assigned a value ?  L Perhaps the part of code that does initialise it was commented out due to an unclosed comment above it ?r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:45:04 -0800a# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>g$ Subject: RE: CC diagnostic  question9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEACECAA.tom@kednos.com>   F Well a_tmp (as the name suggests) is just a hunk of temporary storage,; in fact 16 bytes which is a typdef such that the decl readse   rtl_t_fixed-decimal *a_tmp;L  @ so it should have been allocated by the C compiler, and  thereby initialized.     > -----Original Message-----2 > From: sms@antinode.org [mailto:sms@antinode.org]) > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 5:29 PMw > To: tom@kednos.com% > Subject: Re: CC diagnostic questione >u >i >    Mr. Linden: >e0 > >             a_tmp->fdwords[sw-1] = FIX_PLUS; > > .............^A > > %CC-W-UNINIT1, The scalar variable "a_tmp" is fetched but nott > initialized. > >hJ > > This used to work, and I have stared at the code and it seems correct.	 > > [...]i >rB >    You must have been staring at code you did not supply.  In myH > experience, these complaints are accurate, and you have apparently not2 > set the pointer "a_tmp" before trying to use it. >wG >    I'd need to se the whole function to be more confident, of course.s >eJ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >TE >    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home)eE >    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work)eI >    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work)t; >    sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work)  >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:11:19 -0500i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s$ Subject: Re: CC diagnostic  question, Message-ID: <3C6879B3.5B13D6BB@videotron.ca>   Tom Linden wrote:e > rtl_t_fixed-decimal *a_tmp;s > B > so it should have been allocated by the C compiler, and  thereby > initialized.  N The above doesn't necessarily initialise a variable. In only allocates storageE for a pointer to some structure/union/whatever "rtl_t_decimal" means.u  K If you don't assign a value to a_tmp, it will point to essentially a randomEQ location in memory and you can access-violate, hence the warning by the compiler.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:41:34 GMTr- From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>s$ Subject: Re: CC diagnostic  question* Message-ID: <3C689FEF.6050409@qsl.network>   Tom Linden wrote: E  > Was rebuilding the PL/I RTL using a new compiler DEC C V6.0-001 on-  > OpenVMS Alpha V7.3-   New?  : http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/c/index_alpha.htm  2 Show 6.4 as the current version for OpenVMS Alpha.    > got following message  >#  > a_tmp->fdwords[sw-1] = FIX_PLUS;eF  > ............^ %CC-W-UNINIT1, The scalar variable "a_tmp" is fetched  > but not initialized.f  >  > This used to work,t  A As others have pointed out, it only appeared to work.  a_tmp was .1 pointing at what ever was at that stack location.r  E Unless you were running in DEBUG, then the debugger was clearing the rC stack ahead of you, which should in this case cause a reproducable s access violation.   C Try adding the following "/warn=enable=(level4,questcode)" for the e0 compiler flags to find even more potential bugs.  H If you need the pointer value a_tmp to actually point to some data, you D will need to use either malloc() and then free(), or the __ALLOCA() 	 built in.m   -John  wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyy   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:57:56 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)$ Subject: Re: CC diagnostic  question; Message-ID: <3c68aee4.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>h  " Tom Linden (tom@kednos.com) wrote: > sms@antinode.org wrote:e2 > > >             a_tmp->fdwords[sw-1] = FIX_PLUS; > > > .............^C > > > %CC-W-UNINIT1, The scalar variable "a_tmp" is fetched but notu > > initialized. > > >-L > > > This used to work, and I have stared at the code and it seems correct. > > > [...]s > > D > >    You must have been staring at code you did not supply.  In myJ > > experience, these complaints are accurate, and you have apparently not4 > > set the pointer "a_tmp" before trying to use it. > H > Well a_tmp (as the name suggests) is just a hunk of temporary storage,= > in fact 16 bytes which is a typdef such that the decl readsl >, > rtl_t_fixed-decimal *a_tmp;y >*A > so it should have been allocated by the C compiler, and therebyn > initialized.  D Allocated, yes. Initialized, no. That's exactly what the compiler isC complaining about. There has to be a place (in the code between the,E declaration and the above usage) where there's an assignment to a_tmp/' itself, or passing &a_tmp to a routine.,   cu,t   Martin -- fD                     | Martin Vorlaender    |    VMS & WNT programmer-   Smiert Spamionem  | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de D                     |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/4                     | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 23:44:36 +0100* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)# Subject: Re: csws_php and Multinet?t* Message-ID: <3c684954$1@news.kapsch.co.at>   In article <00A07C0E.A17D43C7@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:r- >AlphaServer 800, VMS 7.2-2, Multinet 4.3-AX.p >lJ >I just upgraded my Apache/CSWS/perl/mod_perl/mod_php versions current on L >the Compaq website.  Trying to load mod_php, Apache crashes; the server logM >has an error from the image activator that it couldn't load the php4_module.d > J >(This confused me because I didn't have any trouble doing this on my home
 >machine.) >bJ >When I tried running php_setup.com and then executing PHP by hand, I got: >n >$ php6 >%DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image TCPIP$IPC_SHR& >-CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not found4 >$9$DKA0:[SYS1.SYSCOMMON.][SYSLIB]TCPIP$IPC_SHR.EXE; >$ >tK >Apparently  php is linked against a specific TCPIP Services image.  (I hadeK >it on my home machine because I'm running TCPIP Services there.)  Is thereoM >any easy workaround for using php with Multinet?  (I presume I could get theiL >source and figure out where it's calling TCPIP$IPC_SHR routines and replaceM >those with equivalent Multinet calls and relink and hope I could still build#* >mod_php, but I've got other stuff to do.)  I I don't know Multinet, but PSC fixed such an issue for TCPware years ago.rL There is a system logical "TCPIP$IPC_SHR" [exec] = "TCPWARE:UCX$IPC_SHR.EXE"J for just this reason. I wonder, why noone did check/fix Multinet so far...  J Try again contacting PSC directly (or via VMSNET.NETWORKS.TCP-IP.MULTINET)H because Hunter, Geoff, Lauren and Co may have missed this question/issue" in the current noise level here...   HIHl   -Peter   -- t< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111 2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111 888(< KAPSCH AG      Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:14:55 GMTEL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")# Subject: Re: csws_php and Multinet? 8 Message-ID: <00A0969F.B540CD51@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  W In article <3c684954$1@news.kapsch.co.at>, eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes:I >In article <00A07C0E.A17D43C7@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:. >>AlphaServer 800, VMS 7.2-2, Multinet 4.3-AX. >>K >>I just upgraded my Apache/CSWS/perl/mod_perl/mod_php versions current on gM >>the Compaq website.  Trying to load mod_php, Apache crashes; the server log N >>has an error from the image activator that it couldn't load the php4_module. >>K >>(This confused me because I didn't have any trouble doing this on my homep >>machine.)e >>K >>When I tried running php_setup.com and then executing PHP by hand, I got:- >> >>$ phps7 >>%DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image TCPIP$IPC_SHR ' >>-CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not founde5 >>$9$DKA0:[SYS1.SYSCOMMON.][SYSLIB]TCPIP$IPC_SHR.EXE;y >>$  >>L >>Apparently  php is linked against a specific TCPIP Services image.  (I hadL >>it on my home machine because I'm running TCPIP Services there.)  Is thereN >>any easy workaround for using php with Multinet?  (I presume I could get theM >>source and figure out where it's calling TCPIP$IPC_SHR routines and replaceoN >>those with equivalent Multinet calls and relink and hope I could still build+ >>mod_php, but I've got other stuff to do.)i >aJ >I don't know Multinet, but PSC fixed such an issue for TCPware years ago.M >There is a system logical "TCPIP$IPC_SHR" [exec] = "TCPWARE:UCX$IPC_SHR.EXE"rK >for just this reason. I wonder, why noone did check/fix Multinet so far...c >aK >Try again contacting PSC directly (or via VMSNET.NETWORKS.TCP-IP.MULTINET)rI >because Hunter, Geoff, Lauren and Co may have missed this question/issuef# >in the current noise level here...r   Peter --  H Thanks for the suggestion.  I actually posted on info-multinet (which isG gatewayed to the newsgroup mentioned above) at the time, and Hunter saw * this and made the same suggestion you did.  F It didn't work because the CSWS PHP was using entry points that don't J exist in the UCX$IPC_SHR.EXE library.  The CSWS group say they've modifiedL their PHP image so that if it doesn't find those entry points, the functions; that require them won't work, but PHP itself still loads.  R   -- Alanr  O ===============================================================================n0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056cM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210sO ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:32:55 GMT 6 From: "Andy Bustamante" <a_c_bustamante@earthlink.net>0 Subject: Re: CTLPAGES - Monitoring Free P1 Space> Message-ID: <HwY98.8$fe.1425@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>  K I believe that the structure of shared global sections and  VMS record locksL is somehow combining to exceeding CTLPAGES. This has happened to me twice inG the last year at larger sites.Since the developer has moved on, I'm notrH getting a simple answer on this.  I can react to the problem, however my goal is preventive maintenance.t   --   Andy Bustamante)( remove the ascii-95's to reply by e-mail      ? "Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in messageh% news:3C63969A.7AD9CC9E@mediasec.de...tJ > > In my case, the program running is ( n to 12) detached processes, "SQLK > > servers", interacting with other detached processes.  They share global/H > > pages and service user connections (browser or VT terminal).  As the7 > > global page count grows, I've hit a CTLPAGES limit.v >aJ > That seems strange. CTLPAGES are private to each process. Maybe whatever: > database software you are using allocates from CTLPAGES? >o > Jan  >t   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:56:36 GMTu From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG % Subject: Re: DECbrouter 90T2 passwordw0 Message-ID: <00A09694.C457557C@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <87g047uafu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes: >yA >OK, I know it is old etc... But the manuals are older :( and the-B >steps for 'recovering' the password does not work at all. So doesC >anyone know how to recover or clear the password from a Brouter90?f >C >tnx >-- = >Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,n8 >+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.A >                                             West Australia 6076a/ >Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.nG >EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.o >r  C Connect a terminal to the console port and power cycle the Brouter.yC When the initial startup messages get to the point where it reports1D how much memory is in the Brouter, hit the <BREAK> key.  This should leave you at a > prompt.  C Type ? and check out the settings of the O option.  You need to sett! Ignore configuration enabled bit.n  
 O/R 0x0040   Then C to continue.a   Once booted:   Router> ENABLE Router# SHOW CONFIG>   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            vJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbest   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Feb 2002 03:54:23 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)6 Subject: Re: Did Intel Bite Off More Than It Can Chew?% Message-ID: <a4a3lf$eal@web.nmti.com>e  & In article <3C65B7A2.FF84DE01@gmx.de>,* Bernd Paysan  <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: > Peter da Silva schrieb:DE > > This means she's going to do to HP what Cortez did to the Aztecs?t   > No, to Compaq.   Both seem likely.-   -- m+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.iE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."bL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:33:37 -0500b; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>b Subject: Re: FIND vs. DFUv$ Message-ID: <3c6854e9$1@news.si.com>  I We use ANALYZE/DISK/USAGE to generate a usage file and then process that.lJ The format of the usage file is documented.  Here's a program that will do
 this for you.r --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com.A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com-= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent@< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company    	 ! FBO.CLDt define  verb    fbo0  4         image           sys$common:[sysmgr.tools]fbo;         parameter       p1, label=disk_name, prompt="Disk",h(                         value (required)6         qualifier       summary, default, nonnegatable*         qualifier       uic, nonnegatable,2                         value (required,type=$uic)B         qualifier       identifier, nonnegatable, value (required)<         qualifier       new_uf, label=new_file, nonnegatable=         qualifier       output, label=out_file, nonnegatable,n;                         default, value (default=sys$output)p'         disallow        summary and uic?. !       disallow        summary and identifier*         disallow        uic and identifier           program fbog           implicit none            include '($ssdef)'           logical         summaryg          integer         id_value%         integer         disk_name_len !         character*255   disk_namer  6         call get_disk_name( disk_name, disk_name_len ):         call create_usage_file( disk_name, disk_name_len )3         call open_files( disk_name, disk_name_len ) 0         call get_id_to_find( summary, id_value )H         call print_header( summary, id_value, disk_name, disk_name_len )1         call read_usage_file( summary, id_value )m         call close_files           stop 'ok'          endI      <         subroutine get_disk_name( disk_name, disk_name_len )           implicit nonec           include '($ssdef)'         include '($clidef)'c         include '($lnmdef)'            logical         done%         integer         cli$get_value %         integer         disk_name_leni         integer         len-         integer         status"         integer         sys$trnlnm$         character*255   logical_name!         character*255   disk_name-  )         structure       /item_descriptor/i             integer*2   buf_len-!             integer*2   item_code.              integer     buf_addr$             integer     ret_len_addr         end structureo  4         record  /item_descriptor/       item_list(2)  . c   get the disk name input on the fbo command  ;         status = cli$get_value( 'disk_name', logical_name )oD         if( status .ne. SS$_NORMAL ) call lib$signal( %val(status) )8         call str$trim( logical_name, logical_name, len )          disk_name = logical_name         disk_name_len = lenG  ; c   translate the possible logical name to a real disk names  ,         item_list(1).item_code = LNM$_STRING1         item_list(1).buf_addr = %loc( disk_name )e"         item_list(1).buf_len = 2559         item_list(1).ret_len_addr = %loc( disk_name_len )e"         item_list(2).item_code = 0         done = .false.           dowhile( .not. done )t  >             if( logical_name(len:len) .eq. ':' ) len = len - 1              status = sys$trnlnm(C         1               LNM$M_CASE_BLIND,               !attributes-C         1               'LNM$FILE_DEV',                 !table nameeE         1               logical_name(:len),             !logical name D         1               ,                               !access modeB         1               item_list )                     !item list/             if( status .eq. SS$_NOLOGNAM ) thena                 done = .true.e1             elseif( status .ne. SS$_NORMAL ) theno/                 call lib$signal( %val(status) )i             endifd$             logical_name = disk_name             len = disk_name_len-  
         enddo-  B         if( disk_name(disk_name_len:disk_name_len) .ne. ':' ) then8             disk_name = disk_name(:disk_name_len) // ':'-             disk_name_len = disk_name_len + 1 
         endif            return         end       @         subroutine create_usage_file( disk_name, disk_name_len )           implicit none-           include '($ssdef)'         include '($clidef)'F  $         integer         CLI$_PRESENT3         parameter       ( CLI$_PRESENT = '3fd19'x )6  #         integer         cli$presentd%         integer         disk_name_lenp!         integer         lib$spawnl         integer         status!         character*(*)   disk_name %         character*255   spawn_commandl  *         status = cli$present( 'new_file' )+         if( status .eq. CLI$_PRESENT ) then"             spawn_command =g*         1       '$ analyze/disk/usage=' //.         1       disk_name(:disk_name_len-1) //         1       '.usage ' //)         1       disk_name(:disk_name_len)-!             type *, spawn_command2             status = lib$spawn(lG         1       spawn_command,                          !command stringgC         1       'nl:',                                  !input filebD         1       'nl:'                                   !output file         1       )eH             if( status .ne. SS$_NORMAL ) call lib$signal( %val(status) )
         endifn           return         end       9         subroutine open_files( disk_name, disk_name_len )e           implicit noneU           include '($ssdef)'  #         integer         cli$presentd%         integer         cli$get_valueh%         integer         disk_name_lent         integer         status!         character*(*)   disk_namei          character*255   out_file  A         open( unit=1, file=disk_name(:disk_name_len-1)//'.usage',c         1       status='old' )6         status = cli$get_value( 'out_file', out_file )D         if( status .ne. SS$_NORMAL ) call lib$signal( %val(status) )K         open( unit=2, file=out_file, status='new', carriagecontrol='list' )l           return         endl      6         subroutine get_id_to_find( summary, id_value )           implicit none            include '($clidef)'i         include '($ssdef)'  $         integer         CLI$_PRESENT3         parameter       ( CLI$_PRESENT = '3fd19'x )a           logical         summaryi         integer         attrib%         integer         cli$get_valueh#         integer         cli$presentm         integer         commao         integer         groupf          integer         id_value         integer         lb         integer         len_"         integer         lib$matchc         integer         member         integer         rb         integer         status#         integer         sys$asctoid !         character*14    input_uico         character*31    id_name            summary = .true.  %         status = cli$present( 'uic' )h+         if( status .eq. CLI$_PRESENT ) then   6             status = cli$get_value( 'uic', input_uic )H             if( status .ne. SS$_NORMAL ) call lib$signal( %val(status) )6             call str$trim( input_uic, input_uic, len )3             lb = lib$matchc( '[', input_uic(:len) )r6             comma = lib$matchc( ',', input_uic(:len) )3             rb = lib$matchc( ']', input_uic(:len) )u8             if( comma .eq. 0 ) stop 'Invalid uic format'&             if( rb .eq. 0 ) rb = len+1=             read( unit=input_uic(lb+1:comma-1), fmt=1 ) groupi>             read( unit=input_uic(comma+1:rb-1), fmt=1 ) member-             id_value = member + group * 65536a             summary = .false.d           else  0             status = cli$present( 'identifier' )/             if( status .eq. CLI$_PRESENT ) thena  ?                 status = cli$get_value( 'identifier', id_name )46                 call str$trim( id_name, id_name, len )G                 status = sys$asctoid( id_name(:len), id_value, attrib ).L                 if( status .ne. SS$_NORMAL ) call lib$signal( %val(status) )!                 summary = .false.-               endif"  
         endifa           return 1       format( o6 )         end       >         subroutine print_header( summary, id_value, disk_name, disk_name_len ).           implicit none            include '($ssdef)'           logical         summaryv%         integer         disk_name_lenu         integer         groupc#         integer         id_name_lent          integer         id_value         integer         member         integer         status#         integer         sys$idtoascE!         character*(*)   disk_nameS         character*31    id_namen           if( summary ) then<             write( unit=2, fmt=1 ) disk_name(:disk_name_len)         else!             status = sys$idtoasc((A         1       %val( id_value ),               !identifier valuehG         1       id_name_len,                    !identifier name lengthr@         1       id_name,                        !identifier nameC         1       ,                               !resultant id valuea;         1       ,                               !attributes'8         1       )                               !context/             if( status .eq. SS$_NOSUCHID ) thenh&                 id_name = 'No ID Name'>                 call str$trim( id_name, id_name, id_name_len )1             elseif( status .ne. SS$_NORMAL ) thenr/                 call lib$signal( %val(status) )T             endifE&             if( id_value .le. 0 ) thenG                 write( unit=2, fmt=2 ) id_name(:id_name_len), id_value, 1         1               disk_name(:disk_name_len)              else(                 group = id_value / 655361                 member = id_value - group * 65536 L                 write( unit=2, fmt=3 ) group, member, id_name(:id_name_len),1         1               disk_name(:disk_name_len)-             endif-
         endifu           return7 1       format( // ' Summary of Disk Usage on ', a // )iA 2       format( // ' Disk Usage by ', a, ' (',z8, ') on ', a // ) A 3       format( // ' Disk Usage by [', o5.5, ',', o6.6, '] (', a,t         1       ') on ', a // )t         endc      7         subroutine read_usage_file( summary, id_value )3           implicit noneD           logical         eofE         logical         summaryp         byte            type         integer*2       dir_len.          integer*2       spec_len!         integer         allocated "         integer         file_owner         integer         ia(         integer         id_table(0:9999)          integer         id_value         integer         index.         integer         index2         integer         iostat          integer         lib$skpc         integer         maxp)         integer         num_files(0:9999)I/         integer         total_allocated(0:9999)t*         integer         total_used(0:9999)         integer         used         character*7     allocB!         character*255   file_specp         character*7     num_f          character*272   recg  *         equivalence     ( type, rec(1:1) )0         equivalence     ( file_owner, rec(2:2) )/         equivalence     ( allocated, rec(6:6) )p,         equivalence     ( used, rec(10:10) )/         equivalence     ( dir_len, rec(14:14) )e0         equivalence     ( spec_len, rec(16:16) )1         equivalence     ( file_spec, rec(18:18) )t  /         call get_index( id_value, i, id_table )u         eof = .false.u         dowhile( .not. eof )  4             read( unit=1, fmt=1, iostat=iostat ) rec$             if( iostat .eq. 0 ) then&                 if( type .eq. 2 ) then&                     if( summary ) thenA                         call get_index( file_owner, i, id_table )T7                         num_files(i) = num_files(i) + 1 K                         total_allocated(i) = total_allocated(i) + allocatedn<                         total_used(i) = total_used(i) + used;                     elseif( file_owner .eq. id_value ) thenm7                         num_files(i) = num_files(i) + 1 K                         total_allocated(i) = total_allocated(i) + allocated <                         total_used(i) = total_used(i) + used<                         write( unit=alloc, fmt=3 ) allocated@                         index = max( lib$skpc( ' ', alloc ), 1 )C                         write( unit=2, fmt=2 ) used, alloc(index:),=4         1                       file_spec(:spec_len)                     endifS                 endifD             else                 eof = .true.             endif9  
         enddoa           if( summary ) then  G             call print_summary( total_used, total_allocated, num_files,=         1       id_table )           else  "             write( unit=2, fmt=4 )9             write( unit=alloc, fmt=3 ) total_allocated(i)n4             index = max( lib$skpc( ' ', alloc ), 1 )3             write( unit=num_f, fmt=3 ) num_files(i)f5             index2 = max( lib$skpc( ' ', num_f ), 1 )h@             write( unit=2, fmt=5 ) total_used(i), alloc(index:),1         1                          num_f(index2:)s  
         endifw           return 1       format( a )i& 2       format( i7, ' / ', a, t20, a ) 3       format( i7 ); 4       format( '----------------------------------------', ;         1       '---------------------------------------' )e< 5       format( i7, ' / ', a, '  blocks in ', a, ' files.' )         endi               subroutine close_files           implicit none.           close( unit=1 )g         close( unit=2 )            return         ende      5         subroutine get_index( id_value, i, id_table )e           implicit nonee           integer         abs !         integer         first_tryl         integer         i (         integer         id_table(0:9999)          integer         id_value         integer         moda  '         i = mod( abs(id_value), 10000 )C         first_try = it,         dowhile( id_table(i) .ne. id_value ))             if( id_table(i) .eq. 0 ) thenS&                 id_table(i) = id_value             else                 i = i + 15(                 if( i .eq. 10000 ) i = 0<                 if( i .eq. first_try ) stop ' ID table full'             endifO
         enddo            return         endo      I         subroutine print_summary( total_used, total_allocated, num_files,o         1       id_table )           implicit none            include '($ssdef)'           integer         group          integer         it#         integer         id_name_len (         integer         id_table(0:9999)         integer         index          integer         j           integer         lib$skpc         integer         maxt         integer         member"         integer         next_value)         integer         num_files(0:9999)c"         integer         num_values/         integer         sorted_id_table(0:9999)1         integer         status#         integer         sys$idtoascd         integer         temp/         integer         total_allocated(0:9999).*         integer         total_used(0:9999)         character*7     allocn         character*31    id_name            next_value = 0         do i = 0, 9999)             if( id_table(i) .ne. 0 ) then09                 sorted_id_table(next_value) = id_table(i)o+                 next_value = next_value + 1r             endif 
         enddoi         num_values = next_valuey            do i = 0, num_values - 2&             do j = i+1, num_values - 1E                 if( sorted_id_table(j) .lt. sorted_id_table(i) ) thend-                     temp = sorted_id_table(i)-;                     sorted_id_table(i) = sorted_id_table(j)0-                     sorted_id_table(j) = temp                  endifa             enddos
         enddoi            do i = 0, num_values - 1  !             status = sys$idtoasc(hA         1       %val( sorted_id_table(i) ),     !identifier valueiG         1       id_name_len,                    !identifier name length @         1       id_name,                        !identifier nameC         1       ,                               !resultant id value-;         1       ,                               !attributesl8         1       )                               !context/             if( status .eq. SS$_NOSUCHID ) theno&                 id_name = 'No ID Name'>                 call str$trim( id_name, id_name, id_name_len )1             elseif( status .ne. SS$_NORMAL ) theno/                 call lib$signal( %val(status) )              endifa=             call get_index( sorted_id_table(i), j, id_table )i9             write( unit=alloc, fmt=3 ) total_allocated(j)r4             index = max( lib$skpc( ' ', alloc ), 1 )0             if( sorted_id_table(i) .le. 0 ) then&                 write( unit=2, fmt=1 )&         1               total_used(j),&         1               alloc(index:),+         1               sorted_id_table(i), -         1               id_name(:id_name_len)              else2                 group = sorted_id_table(i) / 65536;                 member = sorted_id_table(i) - group * 65536 &                 write( unit=2, fmt=2 )&         1               total_used(j),&         1               alloc(index:),         1               group,         1               member, -         1               id_name(:id_name_len)t             endif   
         enddol           return3 1       format( 1x, i7, ' / ', a, t23, z8, t38, a )?J 2       format( 1x, i7, ' / ', a, t20, '[', o5.5, ',', o6.6, ']', t38, a ) 3       format( i7 )         end    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 13:45:35 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ( Subject: Re: How to kill a hung process?3 Message-ID: <IyrZOwLXmXGY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <a490pf02ofj@enews4.newsguy.com>, "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:dK > Periodically we've gotten a process that hangs up completely while in LEF K > and VMS refuses to kill it using either $DELPRC or $FORCEX.  Is there any M > other way to have VMS just drop a process, other than rebooting?  (That has_ > been the solution to date.)l  G Are you just trying to make things look neat, or does that process holdaH some needed resource ?  An LEF hang (not caused by some trivial hardwareG condition such as Ctrl/S being hit in the keyboard) indicates something D is quote wrong inside the VMS executive and memory allocated to that" process cannot be safely released.  F So currently you have to reboot the system at a time of your choosing.  D If it were not that way, the system would choose to reboot at a time of its own choosing.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:07:00 GMTeL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") Subject: Re: How to tail file?8 Message-ID: <00A09696.380450C8@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  _ In article <873e96d6.0202110735.14eff10a@posting.google.com>, wingwong@witty.com (wing) writes:tV >Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message news:<3C66CBEE.B38A3CCE@aaa.com>... >> Tip:i; >> Add a "$ SET OUTPUT_RATE=00:00:nn" to your batch scriptsg9 >> to have the log file beeing updated more "continuous". 8 >> This combined with type/tail/cont/int=n makes it easy6 >> to follow the flow of teh batch job in "real-time". >> =& >> See "HELP SET OUTPUT_RATE examples" >>   >> Jan-Erik Sderholm. > = >Thanks, I have added the set output_rate to my login.com for % >interactive job as well. Is that ok?s >)G >I am writing a server process.  I will use "run pgm/detach" to execute C >the server, will the detach server process have the defined output  >rate as its parent?  K I don't think so.  The detached process isn't really a child of the process K that executed the "Run" command.  TO get this effect, what you want to run  E detached is SYS$SYSTEM:LOGINOUT.EXE and you want to feed it a command 
 procedure, eg   9 $ RUN /DETACHED SYS$SYSTEM:LOGINOUT.EXE /INPUT=SERVER.COM    $ ! SERVER.COM $ ON ERROR THEN $GOTO TROUBLE @ $ SET OUTPUT_RATE=00:00:05  ! logfile updates every five seconds $ RUN SERVER.EXE $ EXIT
 $ TROUBLE:< $ MAIL SYS$INPUT someoneuseful /subj="Trouble in SERVER.COM"  <  There was some kind of problem with SERVER.COM.  Check out 
  the logfile.    $       O ===============================================================================m0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210_O ===============================================================================d   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:35:28 +0000P1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>fY Subject: Re: HP Sets March 19 for Special Meeting of Shareowners to Vote on Compaq Merger 6 Message-ID: <3C684730.202A20EA@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  G More importantly Paul, if either side votes Nay to the deal, what's Mr._G Capellas' "Plan B"?  Would we want to meet it in a dark alley on a darks	 night...?P   Steve.   Paul Repacholi wrote:o > 2 > "Duane Sand" <Duane.Sand@mindspring.com> writes: > F > > I forget which, but one company's votes must get at least 50% for,F > > over all shares outstanding, whereas the other company must merely' > > clear 50% of votes explicitly cast.  > E > I have seen several references that HP must get a 2-1 or 60% (66%?) F > vote for the deal to go ahead, not a simple 50%. Now with 18% votingG > no already (Hewlets and Packards), it neads 36% plus 2/3 over however 2 > many extra over the 36% vote. Big ask I think... > G > What is the record like for voter turn-out in the US for this sort ofn > deal?  >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. B >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   -- iG "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent like E a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath.lA Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'"l% 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:52:29 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>fY Subject: Re: HP Sets March 19 for Special Meeting of Shareowners to Vote on Compaq Merger + Message-ID: <3C684B29.D135BC0@videotron.ca>    Steve Reece wrote: > I > More importantly Paul, if either side votes Nay to the deal, what's Mr.iI > Capellas' "Plan B"?  Would we want to meet it in a dark alley on a dark  > night...?   M In the last financial conference, Capellas made a point of saying that the PCuM business was improving and should be profitable soon. So if HP doesn't rescueeA Compaq from oblivion, Capellas will probably forge ahead with the O re-development of Compaq's core business and compete head to head against Dell.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:33:23 GMT ' From: ben_myers@charter.net (Ben Myers)m7 Subject: Re: In stock: ES40 Model 2 USD7895 VMS Ready ! 0 Message-ID: <3c6854a7.35523447@news.charter.net>  > "just my 0.02"  What currency was that?  Euros?  ... Ben Myers  J On 11 Feb 2002 18:34:33 +0100, eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) wrote:  V >In article <3C671D7B.70907@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:J >>Getting back on topic.  An entity in I believe Ohio must have access to C >>a bunch of 'Ultimate Workstation' Alphas, which appear to be the oJ >>workstation equalivant of the dual 533 MHz AlphaStation 1200.  Has them F >>on EBAY frequently.  I've seen a bunch of 10 in one auction, asking J >>about 10 grand for the bunch.  That's about $1000 for the system, don't  >>remember how it's configured.r >>H >>It isn't something that I'm looking for right now, but they sure seem D >>like quite a workstation.  Questions include does VMS run on such K >>systems?  Can they support multiple users, as a server, or are they only tJ >>workstations?  What's the real difference, other than the name?  What's 6 >>the price of a commercial VMS base license for such? > M >AFAIK, OpenVMS does unfortunately NOT work on the Ultimate Workstation. Sigh- > H >>Ok, a plug for David.  If a buyer doesn't know the answers to all the K >>questions, then buying from someone like Island Computers does take much iJ >>of the risk out of shopping.  Hate to put out a grand, just to find out % >>I can run windoz NT service pack 6.r >>' >>Anybody know much about such systems?  > P >I know David as one who sells systems, which he has (a lot of) experience with.M >At least he (or his company) knows how to make these used/new systems [very] K >attractive for us (OpenVMS) folks. Yes, you may save a lot of bucks buying K >from EBAY (even David does it), but you must know what to do with what you(P >got. And getting warranty by David's Company is worth a couple of bucks also... >t
 >just my 0.02  >  >-- = >Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111 2651 < >Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111 888= >KAPSCH AG      Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.net I >A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   	 Ben Myers  Spirit of Performance, Inc.a 73 Westcott Road Harvard, MA 01451  tel: 978-456-3889  eFax: 810-963-0412    PayPal, MC, VISA, AMEX accepted.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:47:52 GMTi* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)7 Subject: Re: In stock: ES40 Model 2 USD7895 VMS Ready ! 5 Message-ID: <IKY98.590820$5G5.4247123@news.chello.at>   Z In article <3c6854a7.35523447@news.charter.net>, ben_myers@charter.net (Ben Myers) writes:? >"just my 0.02"  What currency was that?  Euros?  ... Ben Myersl  * Yup. Are you green of envy cause of that ?   -- l< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111 2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111 888m< KAPSCH AG      Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:05:59 +0100g. From: Dennis Grevenstein <dennis@pcde.inka.de>  Subject: Installing a DSSI drive, Message-ID: <3C683237.8A566037@pcde.inka.de>   Hi,    yet another question: > I'm trying to install a second DSSI drive (RF71) in a MicroVAX; 3400. The drive came out of a R215F storage expansion toweri' and I also tranferred the mounting kit. 7 Now the drive seems to be properly installed and I havee9 connected it to the VAX. I reused the small plug from the 4 R215F. The first drive has ID0, the new one has ID1.: So far, so good, but the drive does not seem to get power.7 I connected one of the two power cables coming from the 0 second power supply. The drive does not spin up.6 I tried using one of these power cables with the first2 drive, but then the first drive won't spin up too.3 Is there anything needed to use the cables from the9 seond power supply?    TIA  Dennis   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:52:40 GMT * From: Jose Arroyo <Jose.Arroyo@pandora.be>2 Subject: Re: internals question: mode of execution* Message-ID: <3C6820DD.84FB67BF@pandora.be>  & --------------64FF15C03220F3E0E45BB1B9* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bite   Philip,s  H Regarding the location, I think it is stored in a datastructure which isJ permanently in memory called PCB (process control block). Within the PCB IM think it can be found from the value at offset PCB$L_STS. This data structureoG contains many valuable data regarding a specific process. Without goingmC further into details what is important to note is that although the H information is there a user can not access it in a normal way. Access toC nonpaged memory has to be serialized , but that is another story...    Jose Arroyo      Phillip Helbig wrote:l  K > There are various ways (F$MODE(), SHOW SYSTEM,...) which a process a) canlJ > use to find out what mode (BATCH, INTERACTIVE,...) process b) is running% > in, including the case where a = b.  >v# > WHERE is this information stored?  >_F > A former colleague who know works in the unix world but used to workE > with VMS has come to the conclusion that this information cannot beiJ > gathered reliably in unix in all circumstances.  I assume that in VMS itI > can be gathered reliably, which would prove that it can be done.  (He's)> > looking for even MORE arguments that unix is ill-conceived.) >)I > This seems like such an essential matter that I am quite surprised that I > this is not possible in unix.  Maybe it is, but the former colleague ist > quite knowledgeable....   & --------------64FF15C03220F3E0E45BB1B9) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit=  > <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Philip, H <p>Regarding the location, I think it is stored in a datastructure whichG is permanently in memory called PCB (process control block). Within thetI PCB I think it can be found from the value at offset PCB$L_STS. This data K structure contains many valuable data regarding a specific process. Without I going further into details what is important to note is that although the H information is there a user can not access it in a normal way. Access toC nonpaged memory has to be serialized , but that is another story...  <p>Jose Arroyo
 <br>&nbsp; <p>Phillip Helbig wrote:H <blockquote TYPE=CITE>There are various ways (F$MODE(), SHOW SYSTEM,...) which a process a) canL <br>use to find out what mode (BATCH, INTERACTIVE,...) process b) is running' <br>in, including the case where a = b.u$ <p>WHERE is this information stored?G <p>A former colleague who know works in the unix world but used to work G <br>with VMS has come to the conclusion that this information cannot beeG <br>gathered reliably in unix in all circumstances.&nbsp; I assume that 	 in VMS itvJ <br>can be gathered reliably, which would prove that it can be done.&nbsp; (He's @ <br>looking for even MORE arguments that unix is ill-conceived.)J <p>This seems like such an essential matter that I am quite surprised thatM <br>this is not possible in unix.&nbsp; Maybe it is, but the former colleague. is( <br>quite knowledgeable....</blockquote> </html>s  ( --------------64FF15C03220F3E0E45BB1B9--   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 14:39:41 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)m? Subject: Re: JDK 1.3.1 past due (feature not found in the beta) 3 Message-ID: <Q4vpAc7il$t9@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <3c67116e@news.kapsch.co.at>, eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER) writes: e > In article <Vpj9GTHgb$qR@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:  >>G >>   "late 2001" having come and gone, anyone have info on when we will - >>   get a JDK for VMS that supports mozilla?e > K > Sorry, no. Personally, I did expect the Plug-In to come with the officiale: > V1.3.1-1 but alas, it was only a guess, and I was wrong. >       It did. I've used it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:05:05 -0500l- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>_) Subject: Re: MIME Compliant Mail from VMSn2 Message-ID: <juV98.11576$X2.132630@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in messageb! news:3C66CDF8.818CDB18@aaa.com... C > How could one *ever* consider *not* to make MIME batch-friendly ?l >...  L If you ask me, it is not even interactive user friendly. Just like CA beforeK it, I wonder how this piece of garbage ever made it out the door. Try this;-  H 1. Set your terminal to display control characters rather than interpret them.  2. Type the command MCR MIMEG 3. Count how many times the cursor is moved from one spot to another (I F counted 5) and how many times the screen is cleared (I counted 2). Can/ anyone explain to me why the program does this?=L 4. Now that you are in MIME with the control characters being displayed, tryC just hitting <CR>, you'll notice that each time the MIME> prompt ismL displayed the idiot^H^H^H^H^Hprogrammer who wrote this sends the cursor homeI with <ESC>[;H then moves the cursor to the correct location then displays H the prompt. Wouldn't a <CR><LF> been more effective? Try HELP, and watch what the cursor does.    or try this;  I 1. Create a .COM file that contains the lines $ MCR MIME and SHOW VERSIONH@ 2. Execute the file with the output going to a file (@x/OUT=X.X)/ 3. Search the new file for anything using /STAT L 4. Be totally amazed that the "Records searched" is 66. If you dump the fileL you will see that there is one line to show the version followed by 65 lines of two spaces each.a  L Of course others have already mentioned in this newsgroup that MCR MIME SHOWE VERSION does not do what people who have VMS experience expect it to.lG Experienced people also expect to be able to do command line recall and  editing        --J A study has shown that sheep can remember faces for up to 2 years, I guess- that means I'm dumber than the average sheep.(   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 15:34:18 -0500)- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>b) Subject: Re: MIME Compliant Mail from VMSt, Message-ID: <3C682ACB.2DD18DC2@videotron.ca>   Peter Weaver wrote: J > 1. Set your terminal to display control characters rather than interpret > them.   / How can one do that with DECterm in X-windows ?l  N > 4. Now that you are in MIME with the control characters being displayed, tryE > just hitting <CR>, you'll notice that each time the MIME> prompt is,N > displayed the idiot^H^H^H^H^Hprogrammer who wrote this sends the cursor homeK > with <ESC>[;H then moves the cursor to the correct location then displayse
 > the prompt.L    F But this was done on purpose. It is a conspiracy to cause VMS users toI complain about the MIME utility instead of complaining about the death ofg alpha etc etc.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 14:43:29 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 8 Subject: Re: Newbie licensing question - TCPIP services?3 Message-ID: <GXyajjOGaha9@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  f In article <QfG98.35810$s43.10987607@typhoon.columbus.rr.com>, Peter Kukla <nospam@nospam.com> writes:C > I'm new to the VMS-administration world.  Apologies if this is a e > stupid question. > D > I have a MicroVAX running OpenVMS 7.2.  I would like to get it on B > my network so I can telnet into it and stop squinting at my tiny	 > VT-420.e  H    I'll take that VT420 with a real DEC keybaord over a non-DEC keyboard    on anything else.  B > As near as I can tell, I need to get the TCPIP-IP-CLIENT pak to B > accomplish this.  Since licensing for that doesn't seem to be inD > the hobbyist's Layered Products list, I'm not sure how to proceed. >   B    Check for the NAS license or UCX license.  Or better yet, get a.    hobbyist Multinet license and install that.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 14:44:27 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)tY Subject: Re: Newbie licensing question - TCPIP services?                                 33 Message-ID: <KnD7frY5jePg@eisner.encompasserve.org>R  f In article <tPH98.36162$s43.11107594@typhoon.columbus.rr.com>, Peter Kukla <nospam@nospam.com> writes:A > Thanks...that did it.  I've gotten it on the network, and I canf > telnet/ftp into it.  > D > There's an odd lag after I login, as if it's not properly flushingE > data to the network interface or something.  ftp works fine though.i  A    Probably set terminal/inquire yrying to figure out how to talk 
    to you.   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Feb 2002 17:15 PST + From: rankin@eql14.caltech.edu (Pat Rankin)t/ Subject: Re: NFS mounts and RMS File AttributesT1 Message-ID: <11FEB200217151968@eql14.caltech.edu>c  ) In article <3C6752C3.E119537F@home.com>,\t2  "Richard L. Dyson" <rickdyson@home.com> writes... [...]MF > Or, can any FORTRAN expert suggest a (simple!?!) method of opening aF > "Stream_LF" file instead of either the "FORTRAN Carriage Control" or( > "Variable Length" record format types?  7      My Fortran is very rusty but this is a no-brainer.   ?       OPEN (..., FORM='FORMATTED', RECORDTYPE='STREAM_LF', ...)/  ; is about as easy as such things get.  The program is almost ; certainly already doing that using RECORDTYPE='VARIABLE' in== order to produce ordinary text files instead of Fortran print= file format.  ;      You won't have to do anything special with the contentI= of the output records.  RMS will add the terminating linefeed  to each one.  $ > Is there some trick I could use toI > let C I/O open the file but still allow FORTRAN write statements output=I > to it?  I know when I use C I/O to open a text file, it would be in the 1 > correct format for the Linux side to view also.   =      No chance.  The only trick here would be to do _all_ theo> I/O via the C library routines.  That's feasible but certainly( wouldn't qualify as a "simple" solution.  2                 Pat Rankin, rankin@eql.caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:59:48 +0000i1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  Subject: Re: OT: Virus Warning6 Message-ID: <3C683ED4.4FC7B18C@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  + One could also look at the VMS web server :gH http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/mozilla_relnotes.html  H As it notes, the code is not considered to be "Production quality" but ID must admit it's pretty good (if a little of a resource hog) on a DECB 3000 model 600 with 160MB RAM.  Doesn't crash as often as Netscape Navigator.....   Steve.    H In response to a question about a pointer for Mozilla, Alan Greig wrote: > G > On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:11:08 GMT, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote:f >  > >Got a pointer for Mozilla?- >  > www.mozilla.org or` > http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/mozilla0.9.8/mozilla-openvms-alpha-m098.sfx_axpexe0 > to go direct to the latest 0.98 binary for VMS >  > >a >  > -- > Alan   -- rG "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent like E a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath. A Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'"a% 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"r   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 16:16:08 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: OT: Virus Warning3 Message-ID: <NNbzgTcGNDuM@eisner.encompasserve.org>z  j In article <3C683ED4.4FC7B18C@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>, Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk> writes:- > One could also look at the VMS web server :@J > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/mozilla_relnotes.html   Web server ?  Not browser ?a  J > As it notes, the code is not considered to be "Production quality" but IF > must admit it's pretty good (if a little of a resource hog) on a DECD > 3000 model 600 with 160MB RAM.  Doesn't crash as often as Netscape > Navigator.....   ------------------------------   Date: 11 FEB 2002 18:05:10 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)' Subject: PIPE: sending commands to MAILs6 Message-ID: <11FEB02.18051073@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  @ I'm trying to send two input lines to VMS MAIL without writing aG temporary file. What I'd like to do is pass a filename and recipient as3 symbols as in:   $ MAIL MAIL> SEND 'filename.txt' 
 To: 'user'  C I've tried the following tests (using fixed values for filename andl user):  M $ pipe (write sys$output "SEND TEST.TMP" ; write sys$output "KARCHER") | Maila   You have 12 new messages.o  D It appears to take the first write as input and terminates it with a EOF (CTRL-Z) as shown by:f  I $ pipe (write sys$output "SHOW EDIT" ; write sys$output "KARCHER") | maili   You have 12 new messages.a Your editor is TPU.eF %CLI-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling
  \KARCHER\   Yet:  E $ pipe (write sys$output "SEND T.TMP" ; write sys$output "KARCHER") -w   | copy  sys$input sys$output
 SEND T.tmp KARCHER    What am I missing?   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madisonu2 --                      karcher@waisman.wisc.edu     ------------------------------   Date: 11 FEB 2002 18:22:14 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)+ Subject: Re: PIPE: sending commands to MAIL?6 Message-ID: <11FEB02.18221494@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>   In a previous article, I wrote:>  B ->I'm trying to send two input lines to VMS MAIL without writing aI ->temporary file. What I'd like to do is pass a filename and recipient ash ->symbols as in: -> f ->$ MAIL ->MAIL> SEND 'filename.txt's ->To: 'user' ->    1 Yeah, I know I can do if directly from DCL using:w   $ mail 'filename' 'user'   It's just a simple example.l   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madisona2 --                      karcher@waisman.wisc.edu     ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 14:06:59 -0600G From: simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)i+ Subject: Re: PIPE: sending commands to MAILa3 Message-ID: <v4zKmXBeYdgc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   m In article <11FEB02.18051073@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>, karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) writes:sB > I'm trying to send two input lines to VMS MAIL without writing aI > temporary file. What I'd like to do is pass a filename and recipient as  > symbols as in: >  > $ MAIL > MAIL> SEND 'filename.txt'f > To: 'user' > E > I've tried the following tests (using fixed values for filename and4 > user): > O > $ pipe (write sys$output "SEND TEST.TMP" ; write sys$output "KARCHER") | Mail0 >  > You have 12 new messages.s >   J Actually this works just fine, provided you supply a third line containingC the subject line. Try doing a Ctrl-Z during an interactive session cK when the subject is prompted for and the message will not be sent. (This isiD true on AXP V7.1; I haven't tried it on other versions around here).  F > It appears to take the first write as input and terminates it with a > EOF (CTRL-Z) as shown by:  > K > $ pipe (write sys$output "SHOW EDIT" ; write sys$output "KARCHER") | mailH >  > You have 12 new messages.a > Your editor is TPU.-H > %CLI-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling >  \KARCHER\ >   - What response are you expecting to see here ?0   Simon.   -- sG Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP       s+ Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.i   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:11:34 +0000 (UTC) 1 From: lewis@lumina.mitre.xxx.org (Keith A. Lewis)r+ Subject: Re: PIPE: sending commands to MAILh. Message-ID: <a49fim$ov7$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) writes in article <11FEB02.18051073@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu> dated 11 FEB 2002 18:05:10 GMT:oA >I'm trying to send two input lines to VMS MAIL without writing aeH >temporary file. What I'd like to do is pass a filename and recipient as >symbols as in:n >. >$ MAIL  >MAIL> SEND 'filename.txt' >To: 'user'f  H I'm guessing that the reason you want to do this is to use variables for8 username and filename.  You don't need the pipe command.  + $ mail 'filename' 'user' /subject="testing"-  I If you want the actual content of the message to come from variables, youo" can use the pipe command this way:  H $ pipe (write sys$output "line 1" ; write sys$output "line 2 x = ''x'")-&  | mail sys$input: karcher/subj="test"   Hope this helps!  / --Keith Lewis              klewis@mitre.xxx.org + There are no x's in my real e-mail address. > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------   Date: 11 FEB 2002 21:20:39 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)+ Subject: Re: PIPE: sending commands to MAILd6 Message-ID: <11FEB02.21203961@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  _ In a previous article, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote:   o ->In article <11FEB02.18051073@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>, karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) writes: D ->> I'm trying to send two input lines to VMS MAIL without writing aK ->> temporary file. What I'd like to do is pass a filename and recipient asA ->> symbols as in: ->> 
 ->> $ MAIL ->> MAIL> SEND 'filename.txt'b ->> To: 'user' ->> G ->> I've tried the following tests (using fixed values for filename andi
 ->> user): ->> L ->> $ pipe (write sys$output "SEND TEST.TMP" ; write sys$output "KARCHER") - ->>   | Mail ->>  ->> You have 12 new messages.  ->>  -> hL ->Actually this works just fine, provided you supply a third line containingE ->the subject line. Try doing a Ctrl-Z during an interactive session dM ->when the subject is prompted for and the message will not be sent. (This isaF ->true on AXP V7.1; I haven't tried it on other versions around here).  E Yep, that's it! I'm an idiot for forgetting about the subject prompt.1 Thanks.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:15:51 +0000!1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>n2 Subject: Re: problems with a (dead?) MicroVAX 33006 Message-ID: <3C684297.2E6770D5@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  
 Hi Dennis,  F By default, I believe that the MicroVAX 3300 tended to come in a BA215H cabinet, the "baby brother" of the BA213.  It has a single power supply,D the other space being covered by a blanking plate if I interpret the/ layout of the cabinet in front of me correctly.t  E There are power cutouts on the power supplies, these are indicated by F white buttons on the front of the supply.  I seem to remember from theH one occasion that I've tripped one that the reset is a push-button job.  I could be wrong though....i  F There would be a green LED illuminated, just below the top cover plateE on the front of the PSU, if the PSU was working.  I couldn't say whatnD happens if there are too few modules in for the PSU to be functionalE (but a CPU, memory and a disk should be enough I would have thought).w  H I'm not sure if the supplies in the BA213 and BA215 are interchangable. D If they are, it MIGHT be feasible to try some swapping around.  ThenD again, if only one supply is working in the BA213 that you have your& 3400 in, do you want to risk that one?  E On the subject of the 3400 and the DSSI drive, is there enough in the E BA213 to have the second supply running?  Does it need a load card ini+ the Q-bus cage to enable the second supply?t  0 Hoff (as resident Q-bus expert :-)) - any ideas?   Steve.     Dennis Grevenstein wrote:- >  > Hi,2 > H > I just became the proud owner of an old MicroVAX 3300. It came with anF > R215F expansion box. Both contain one harddisk each. The whole thingG > looks pretty clean, but it doesn't even power up. I can switch eitherl7 > of the boxes on, but only the power switch lights up.wE > The rest stays quiet. No noise from the fans, no console output, not > sign of life at all.G > The battery behind the CPU bulkhead looks bad. If it was a flashlight>E > I would throw it away completely. The CPU board however looks fine.lH > Any idea what could be wrong with my new little toy? It should boot up > with a dead battery, right?  > > > QBus configuration is as follows from the right to the left: >  > KA640 CPU. > two MS650 memory boardsdK > CXY08 board. (What's that for btw? I heard that it was a tape controller)0 > TQK70 tape controller<F > one unknown 3rd party board that has two 50 pin connectors that look  > suspicious like internal SCSI. >  > TIAc > Dennis   -- G "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent like.E a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath.lA Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'"J% 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:21:24 +0100m. From: Dennis Grevenstein <dennis@pcde.inka.de>2 Subject: Re: problems with a (dead?) MicroVAX 3300, Message-ID: <3C6843E4.12B12906@pcde.inka.de>   Nic Clews wrote: > J > I find it extremely unlikely that BOTH supplies can have failed [in each+ > cabinet], it's too much of a coincidence.   B That's is though. I put the power supply out of a MicroVAX 3400 inE the 3300 and the machines worked. The power supply from the expansiont box is dead too.+ Anyway, thanks to all of you for your help.n   Dennis   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:56:46 +0100d. From: Dennis Grevenstein <dennis@pcde.inka.de>2 Subject: Re: problems with a (dead?) MicroVAX 3300, Message-ID: <3C684C2E.E26F489D@pcde.inka.de>   Steve Reece wrote: > G > There are power cutouts on the power supplies, these are indicated byoH > white buttons on the front of the supply.  I seem to remember from theI > one occasion that I've tripped one that the reset is a push-button job.  > I could be wrong though....l  ? There is a white button on the power supply, but you can't push 9 it. It looks exactly like the working ones in the MV3400.   tH > There would be a green LED illuminated, just below the top cover plateG > on the front of the PSU, if the PSU was working.  I couldn't say whateF > happens if there are too few modules in for the PSU to be functionalG > (but a CPU, memory and a disk should be enough I would have thought).a  = When I swap in a power supply from the 3400 the VAX comes up.   I > I'm not sure if the supplies in the BA213 and BA215 are interchangable.:  ( They are. They have the same partnumber.  F > If they are, it MIGHT be feasible to try some swapping around.  ThenF > again, if only one supply is working in the BA213 that you have your( > 3400 in, do you want to risk that one?  7 I swapped in the "non-working" one and the 3300 worked.l  aG > On the subject of the 3400 and the DSSI drive, is there enough in thehG > BA213 to have the second supply running?  Does it need a load card in - > the Q-bus cage to enable the second supply?;  * There are the following cards in the 3400:  	 KA640 CPUy three MS650 memory boards . In the most left slot there is an M9060 board.   Dennis   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:34:48 -0500d; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> $ Subject: Re: Purveyor runs VMS Perl!$ Message-ID: <3c686340$1@news.si.com>  D >I prefer not to edit anything that is based on unix and not on vms!  K Then OSU should be perfect for you, since it was written from the ground up8 on VMS.o --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comd= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventl< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 13:51:12 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org$ Subject: Re: Question about Group ID3 Message-ID: <wB5gc+L4tFdl@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  [ In article <2c0966c2.0202111056.222cda18@posting.google.com>, hchen3@uwo.ca (Sammy) writes: H > Basically, I want to do the same thing with Group portion of the file.D > I will use stat() to pull out the st_gid from the "test.txt" file.E > then, i want to somehow get the gid given the group name (sorry forvF > all the unix syntax here, but I don't know VMS very well) and try to > match it with the  > st_gid from the test file. > F > If possible, can someone brefiely explain the difference between theE > UIC concept in VMS and the group concept in Unix. Any resources are: > greatly appreciated.  , A 32 bit VMS UIC is broken down into fields:   16 bit member number 14 bit group numberg 2 bits of control informationp  D With any luck, you will be dealing only with files that are owned by( ordinary [group,member] type UIC values.  D The system call you want to convert a numeric format group number to a printable group name is   	 	$IDTOASC7  C Shift the group number left 16 bits to put it into the proper fieldS@ in the UIC.  And set the low order 16 bits to all ones.  That is@ equivalent to a UIC code of [group,*] and that is the query that, you are expected to use to get a group name.  = There are $FAO directives that can also be used:  !%U and !%Im  F Note that it is entirely possible to have a valid group number without@ a corresponding group name.  The name/number mappings are stored( in SYS$SYSTEM:RIGHTSLIST.DAT by default.    E Check out module $UICDEF in SYS$SHARE:STARLET.MLB.  If the high order.C two bits of the UIC are non-zero then you're talking about a rightse? identifier instead of a UIC.  In that case, the high order four C bits identify the exact type of identifier.  And in that case, it's.C not clear what the C run time library will hand you for the st_gid.t    G In Unix, there is a group number associated with every file.  And there > is a primary group number and optionally a number of secondaryG group numbers associated with each user.  Access to a file is permittedsH if the group number of the file matches a group associated with the user? and the group portion of the file's protection mask permits thee requested access.l  D In VMS, there is a 32 bit owner ID associated with every file.  ThisB may be a classic UIC expressible as [group,member].  Or, if either@ of the high two bits are set, it is a rights identifier instead.  @ 99% of the files you'll see at a "typical" VMS site are owned by classic format UIC's.u  E In VMS, there is a 32 bit UIC associated with every process.  This is.A always a classic UIC expressible as [group,member].  In addition,wD each process may "hold" a set of 32 bit identifiers known as "rightsB identifiers".  These will have one of the high order two bits set.  : Group access under VMS is permitted when the file is ownedE by a classic format UIC and the users group number matches the file'se@ group number and the group portion of the file's protection mask permits the requested access.   < For files owned by rights identifiers, group access does not; apply. In that case, access can be granted explicitly by an-? "access control list".  Access control lists generally grant orrE deny file access based on identifiers held by the requesting process.e  B When a user creates a new file, ownership defaults to the owner ofC the previous version.  If no previous version exists then ownershiptH defaults to the directory owner.  Ownership can be explicitly overriddenD at file creation time.  If the user does not have rights to create aE file under the default owner then the file will be owned by the user.-F Rights to create a file under an owner ID different from the creator's UIC can be granted by:  9 SYSPRV privilege:  Can create a file under any ownership.c  E GRPPRV privilege:  Can create a file under any UIC in creators group.,  B UIC group less than or equal to MAXSYSGROUP:  Equivalent to SYSPRV  H Hold a rights identifier with the RESOURCE attribute:  Can create a file owned by that identifier.t   	John Briggs   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 13:56:59 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)r$ Subject: Re: Question about Group ID3 Message-ID: <dUn07ZVsMrU3@eisner.encompasserve.org>'  [ In article <2c0966c2.0202111056.222cda18@posting.google.com>, hchen3@uwo.ca (Sammy) writes:B  H > Basically, I want to do the same thing with Group portion of the file.D > I will use stat() to pull out the st_gid from the "test.txt" file.E > then, i want to somehow get the gid given the group name (sorry forAF > all the unix syntax here, but I don't know VMS very well) and try to > match it with the3 > st_gid from the test file. > F > If possible, can someone brefiely explain the difference between theE > UIC concept in VMS and the group concept in Unix. Any resources areE > greatly appreciated.  G As I mentioned, if you want something akin to Unix Groups you should beaC looking at VMS general identifiers.  But if you insist on using VMS F groups, they are documented on the CD-ROM documentation that came with/ your copy of VMS.  For V7.3 see the section at:o  8 	file:///VMSDOC073/v73/6346/6346pro_005.html#index_x_445   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:14:30 -0500p- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>w( Subject: Re: setting the record straight, Message-ID: <3C68180B.5CB83D8C@videotron.ca>   david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:i1 > And how many VMS, HPUX , NSK customers will say N > "Well Intel's no longer supporting Itanium. Microsoft may well drop support.L > The chip performs badly (else why would Intel have stopped pushing it) andL > its going to be expensive. Lets just stick with what we've got and plan toL > migrate to Sun or IBM - at least those companies seem to know what they're	 > doing."t  L The same numbers as those VMS customers who are saying the same thing today.N Compaq is no longer supporting Alpha, Microsoft has dropped support for Alpha.J Lets just stick with what we've got and plan to migrate to Sun or IBM once( what is left of Alpha runs out of steam.  J The biggest losers are Tru64. Neither VMS nor NSK chose their platform forL performance. But I suspect that a significant proportion of tru64 chose thatN platform because they needed the performance.  While VMS and NSK customers areJ captive enough to either stick to Alpha or migrate to the slower IA64, theM Unix customers will choose the faster Unix platform and the logical answer iscH probably IBM because IBM also provides the quality and service that many0 sought when they chose Digital, Alpha and Tru64.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:41:55 GMTa* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>( Subject: Re: setting the record straightA Message-ID: <78V98.66484$QS5.5162621@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C680BFE.50535646@videotron.ca...! > david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:iH > > Right. So HP will have to pay vast amounts to Intel for a chip which nooney > > else wants.f >,L > IA64 with only HP using it will still have a larger market than Alpha did. IfG > Alpha was able to survive and generate enough revenus to continue itseG > development, then HP will also be able to consitnue to sponsor IA64'st* > development even if it is its only user.  I I'm afraid that when you start looking at actual numbers rather than justwH throw around such plausible generalizations your conclusion looks prettyE silly.  While the HP/UX market may indeed be somewhat larger than thetJ combined VMS/Tru64/AlphaLinux markets, IIRC it's nowhere nearly twice thatH size (even if you ignore that portion that will elect to continue to useL PA-RISC as a base for its better performance) - and development expenditures> on IA64 reportedly run at least several times Alpha's, with anD already-accrued burden of over $1 billion yet to start being repaid.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:39:10 GMT-1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>m( Subject: Re: setting the record straight' Message-ID: <3C686580.F0A70969@fsi.net>c   david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:  > e > In article <KvlbQjwiyzD4@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:,O > >In article <a45sev$bpv$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes:  > >lL > >> Since as I understand it AMD's plans are to move over totally to HammerN > >> this would seem to be a fairly good plan B. Anyone who buys a PC based onU > >> AMD chips in future will be able to Windows (in 32bit mode and possibly later in O > >> 64bit mode) and will also be able to use the box with VMS (in 64bit mode).p > >VF > >But the question was, why not port VMS to IA32.  AMD in 64-bit mode > >is _not_ IA32.S > >i > K > But why do people want VMS on IA32 ? Answer so that they can put it up ono' > any spare PC they have laying around.y  % This is a widely-held misconception. r  G The reason for wanting VMS on IA32 is obvious, when you think about it: D what is the CPU in all those Proliant, Dell, etc. servers out there?9 (Hint: the ones that aren't 68K, MIPS or SPARC are IA32.)   K > If Itanium fails then Intel's plan B seems to be to follow AMD's lead and & > bring out a 64bit extended x86 chip.P > (Hopefully this will be compatible with AMD's Hammer chip. If not we will haveK > two chips with AMD having a substantial lead up against the manufacturing  > might of intel). > P > Hence porting VMS to AMD's hammer chip in 64bit mode would mean that you wouldN > be able to put VMS on any new PC built with that chip and if Intel does makeO > their extended x86 chip compatible then any new pc built with that chip also. M > Porting to Hammer in 64 bit mode should be a lot easier than trying to back  > port to IA32.a > M > The only downside is you won't be able to put VMS on the current IA32 basedc > PCs.  D Which may be just as well, if Hammer takes off like every hopes IA64F will, except that like IA64, it will have to gain market share throughE attrition, which will slow the ROI down to a level most investors may  dislike.  K > But whichever way Intel decides to go those PCs are reaching end of life.mD > The last thing VMS needs is a lot of money spent moving to another > "dead" architecture.  F ...except that IA32 isn't dead yet, won't be for many years (those newH servers going out the door at Compaq, Dell, etc. are: A) IA32, B) Alpha,B C) SPARC - choose one answer, and notice that IA64 is not listed).  E > >Right now, Compaq has an agreement with Intel that Itanium will bea > >their target. > K > This discussion is to do with what Compaq should do if Intel adopts theird" > Plan B ie If/when Itanium fails.  B Rumor has it it might. Just loose talk though - no substantiation.   -- m David J. Dachtera3 dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/u   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 20:32:11 -0500h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ( Subject: Re: setting the record straight, Message-ID: <3C68708A.6F54EE72@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:I > The reason for wanting VMS on IA32 is obvious, when you think about it:aF > what is the CPU in all those Proliant, Dell, etc. servers out there?; > (Hint: the ones that aren't 68K, MIPS or SPARC are IA32.)b  ; You forgot PowerPC. (lots more macs around than VMS shops).w  I Porting to the 8086 is pointless. If you want cheap hardware without muchoN performance, you just get a VAX.  If they are going to spend money porting VMSL to another platform, they should choose one that has wide enough acceptance,/ performance and a future, and that means POWER.   : Alpha could have been the one but that option is gone now.  H > ...except that IA32 isn't dead yet, won't be for many years (those new2 > servers going out the door at Compaq, Dell, etc.  L Where there is a will, there is a way. Sun found a way to produce affordableI Sparc workstation and servers, and guess what, it is now king of the UnixrM market.  The owner of VMS need not port to the 8086 to find a way to make VMS J affordable. It simply needs to want to make it competitive and then it can find a way to accomplish that.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 03:30:45 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>( Subject: Re: setting the record straightA Message-ID: <E%%98.89423$Jo3.5904123@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3C686580.F0A70969@fsi.net...p! > david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:x   ....  L > > Hence porting VMS to AMD's hammer chip in 64bit mode would mean that you wouldxK > > be able to put VMS on any new PC built with that chip and if Intel does3 makeK > > their extended x86 chip compatible then any new pc built with that chip  also.nJ > > Porting to Hammer in 64 bit mode should be a lot easier than trying to back > > port to IA32.r > >eI > > The only downside is you won't be able to put VMS on the current IA32b basedk > > PCs. >nF > Which may be just as well, if Hammer takes off like every hopes IA64H > will, except that like IA64, it will have to gain market share throughG > attrition, which will slow the ROI down to a level most investors mayl
 > dislike.  G It's not clear exactly what you meant by the above statement, but it ispJ clear that the way Hammer will gain market share is *completely* different1 from how (if at all) IA64 will gain market share.o  F IA64 will have to wrest market share from those who currently hold it,J fighting up-hill battles against superior competition and having little toA offer save the debatable promise of eventual domination:  no reallK upward-compatibility with existing solutions (IA32 code runs lethargically,sK and there's some question whether even PA-RISC code will run fast enough toeA make recompilation to native IA64 code really optional), inferiorsK performance, inferior (*significantly* inferior, unless Intel is willing tonJ sell IA64 at the marginal cost of making it and defer any compensation forJ the $billions already spent on its development until it has captured majorA market share) price/performance, excessive power consumption, ...e  G By contrast, Hammer will gain market share the same way P4 is currentlyiE doing so:  by being the faster, upward-compatible replacement for thetJ previous AMD generation (Athlon/Duron) that just happens to offer a 64-bitK operating mode as well.  The only way Hammer won't enjoy significant markett? share is if AMD ceases to hold significant (IA32) market share.b   >eG > > But whichever way Intel decides to go those PCs are reaching end ofo life.tF > > The last thing VMS needs is a lot of money spent moving to another > > "dead" architecture. > H > ...except that IA32 isn't dead yet, won't be for many years (those newJ > servers going out the door at Compaq, Dell, etc. are: A) IA32, B) Alpha,D > C) SPARC - choose one answer, and notice that IA64 is not listed).  J See above.  Shortly (certainly within any time-frame in which a port couldG be completed) all AMD IA32 servers going out the door will have Hammers J inside them.  And if Intel decides that it needs to clone Hammer, the same+ will be true of all Intel IA32 servers too.u   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 05:00:14 GMTo1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>m( Subject: Re: setting the record straight' Message-ID: <3C68A2DA.610F4C47@fsi.net>s   JF Mezei wrote:C >  > "David J. Dachtera" wrote:K > > The reason for wanting VMS on IA32 is obvious, when you think about it:oH > > what is the CPU in all those Proliant, Dell, etc. servers out there?= > > (Hint: the ones that aren't 68K, MIPS or SPARC are IA32.)  > = > You forgot PowerPC. (lots more macs around than VMS shops).- > K > Porting to the 8086 is pointless. If you want cheap hardware without muchr$ > performance, you just get a VAX.    5 "Cheap" (read: "affordable") is only half the battle.   / "Ubiquitous" is the other, more important half.e   -- g David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems: http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/w   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Feb 2002 01:28:41 GMT+ From: "Joe Heimann" <heimann@ecs.umass.edu>T Subject: Re: SMTP Spam Filter., Message-ID: <a49r49$ee3$2@odo.ecs.umass.edu>  2 Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote:I > If anyone is interested, I have modified the TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.COM toTJ > added a section that not only checks the ORBS.ORG for spam abusers (fromA > FAQ I think), but also I have a local indexed file that uses IP.I > addresses as the primary key and will reject messages if they originatecI > from this address along with a command procedure to properly format anddH > insert records into this file.  But I would caution you to at least do; > some investigation as to the origin of the spammer first.t  F The orbs.org site closed up shop last year, got into legal trouble andE decided to close instead of trying to stay in operation under tighterhH rules.  There are three sites out there trying to serve the same purposeF as ORBS, don't happen to have their URL's though.  I have not seen one= of their test messages in the spam trap here recently though.1   Joe Heimann@   heimann@ecs.umass.edu    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:19:09 -0500(1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>5 Subject: Re: SMTP Spam Filter.2 Message-ID: <3C6889AD.401A61BB@firstdbasource.com>   Joe Heimann wrote: > 4 > Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote:K > > If anyone is interested, I have modified the TCPIP$SMTP_RECV_RUN.COM toyL > > added a section that not only checks the ORBS.ORG for spam abusers (fromC > > FAQ I think), but also I have a local indexed file that uses IPlK > > addresses as the primary key and will reject messages if they originatewK > > from this address along with a command procedure to properly format andsJ > > insert records into this file.  But I would caution you to at least do= > > some investigation as to the origin of the spammer first.  > H > The orbs.org site closed up shop last year, got into legal trouble andG > decided to close instead of trying to stay in operation under tightereJ > rules.  There are three sites out there trying to serve the same purposeH > as ORBS, don't happen to have their URL's though.  I have not seen one? > of their test messages in the spam trap here recently though.. > 
 > Joe Heimannn >  > heimann@ecs.umass.edua  H Thanks for the heads up.  I guess I will remove that section of code.  IG will still use an indexed file and track my own spammers list.  I wouldoG like to find some sort of DNS-lookup site that is tracking some of thisgD garbage.  but it is like trying to stop the Mississippi River with a bucket that is full of holes.  -- e Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163s7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.como Sr. Consultant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:13:28 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t Subject: SORT to indexed fileg, Message-ID: <3C68B25E.FCA47179@videotron.ca>  I What is the purpose of giving SORT the ability to sort an indexed file ton another indexed file ?  G Why would one use SORT insert of CONCVERT to populate an indexed file ?s  N I tried to sort an indexed file to generate a sequential file in reverse orderL of a field that was not a key and was surprised to see that by defualt, SORT; expected the output file to be indexed and already created.r   If I have a file with 2 fields:r WORD (key 0) COUNT (not a key).  J What happens if I SORT according to COUNT in descending order and send theE output to a file that has the same FDL as the original indexed file ?i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 07:55:50 +0100  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>! Subject: Re: SORT to indexed file & Message-ID: <3C68BC76.8000402@home.nl>  D By definition the record area of a indexed file is always sorted on A primary key. If the key is unique, the sort will not do anything eF usefull. If the primary key has duplicates however (possible, but not F often used), sort may give you a file with the record area sorted the  way you would like to have it.   JF Mezei wrote:   J >What is the purpose of giving SORT the ability to sort an indexed file to >another indexed file ?  >aH >Why would one use SORT insert of CONCVERT to populate an indexed file ? >wO >I tried to sort an indexed file to generate a sequential file in reverse order M >of a field that was not a key and was surprised to see that by defualt, SORTP< >expected the output file to be indexed and already created. >t  >If I have a file with 2 fields:
 >WORD (key 0)7 >COUNT (not a key).  > K >What happens if I SORT according to COUNT in descending order and send thesF >output to a file that has the same FDL as the original indexed file ? >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:26:11 GMTa$ From: "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org> Subject: Re: Suggested ECOs?/ Message-ID: <7yX98.31975$fK1.3606812@rwcrnsc54>	  7 "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message-# news:3C67D0F1.4C11EDE5@gtech.com...2 > William Barnett-Lewis wrote:J > > I'm running 7.2 from the hobbyist distro on a Vaxstation 4000/90. I'veH > > looked through the mass of ECO's that are out there, but unlike, forL > > example Sun and Solaris, there does not seem to be a bundle of suggestedA > > patches to apply to bring a system up to a given patch level.  > > J > > Is there a list somewhere of what would be appropriate for me to apply? > > to my system here at home to take care of the worst issues?  >n4 > The traditional recommended policy in VMS land is:? >   - apply only MUPS and patches to problems you actually have   A Actually, that's a good way to witness system crashes and/or data L corruption, depending on what you're running.  My personal policy is to lookL at installation ratings on the patches.  All IR 1 patches get installed.  IRH 2 patches get a really, really good look, and IR 3 patches get less of a6 look depending on whether they require reboots or not.  L For VMS 7.2, you should at least go to 7.2-2 and then look at the patch listJ from there.  The list gets a *lot* shorter, and for a hobbyist system thatK you don't care much about, you might be able to stop there, although I haveiF not looked at the patch list for 7.2-2 (we skipped from 7.1-2 to 7.3).  4 > If you follow two simple advices you should be OK:> >   - always read the release note carefully before installing   Absolutely!o  D >   - always have a good backup of the system disk before installing > then nothing can go wrong !h  L And if you have shadowed system disks, *always* split the shadow sets beforeH you install the patches - a restore is then rather painless (although it# does, of course, require a reboot).w   -- Ed Wilts Mounds View, MN, USA mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:05:22 GMT  From: dittman@dittman.netn Subject: Re: Suggested ECOs?: Message-ID: <mTZ98.1218$cq2.557948@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>  # Ed Wilts <ewilts@ewilts.org> wrote:e9 : "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message-% : news:3C67D0F1.4C11EDE5@gtech.com...  :> William Barnett-Lewis wrote:nK :> > I'm running 7.2 from the hobbyist distro on a Vaxstation 4000/90. I'vehI :> > looked through the mass of ECO's that are out there, but unlike, for M :> > example Sun and Solaris, there does not seem to be a bundle of suggestedhB :> > patches to apply to bring a system up to a given patch level. :> >K :> > Is there a list somewhere of what would be appropriate for me to applyh@ :> > to my system here at home to take care of the worst issues? :>5 :> The traditional recommended policy in VMS land is:l@ :>   - apply only MUPS and patches to problems you actually have  C : Actually, that's a good way to witness system crashes and/or data N : corruption, depending on what you're running.  My personal policy is to lookN : at installation ratings on the patches.  All IR 1 patches get installed.  IRJ : 2 patches get a really, really good look, and IR 3 patches get less of a8 : look depending on whether they require reboots or not.  N : For VMS 7.2, you should at least go to 7.2-2 and then look at the patch listL : from there.  The list gets a *lot* shorter, and for a hobbyist system thatM : you don't care much about, you might be able to stop there, although I havecH : not looked at the patch list for 7.2-2 (we skipped from 7.1-2 to 7.3).  ? The original question was for a VAXstation 4000/90, so the usera@ doesn't have the option of going to V7.2-2.  The Vx.y-z releases are Alpha-only.s -- 3 Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net = Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:10:09 GMT  From: dittman@dittman.netn Subject: Re: Suggested ECOs?: Message-ID: <RXZ98.1222$cq2.562594@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>   dittman@dittman.net wrote:% : Ed Wilts <ewilts@ewilts.org> wrote:y; : : "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in messagei' : : news:3C67D0F1.4C11EDE5@gtech.com...t! : :> William Barnett-Lewis wrote:DM : :> > I'm running 7.2 from the hobbyist distro on a Vaxstation 4000/90. I'veeK : :> > looked through the mass of ECO's that are out there, but unlike, forsO : :> > example Sun and Solaris, there does not seem to be a bundle of suggestedpD : :> > patches to apply to bring a system up to a given patch level. : :> >M : :> > Is there a list somewhere of what would be appropriate for me to applyeB : :> > to my system here at home to take care of the worst issues? : :>7 : :> The traditional recommended policy in VMS land is:iB : :>   - apply only MUPS and patches to problems you actually have  E : : Actually, that's a good way to witness system crashes and/or dataeP : : corruption, depending on what you're running.  My personal policy is to lookP : : at installation ratings on the patches.  All IR 1 patches get installed.  IRL : : 2 patches get a really, really good look, and IR 3 patches get less of a: : : look depending on whether they require reboots or not.  P : : For VMS 7.2, you should at least go to 7.2-2 and then look at the patch listN : : from there.  The list gets a *lot* shorter, and for a hobbyist system thatO : : you don't care much about, you might be able to stop there, although I haveeJ : : not looked at the patch list for 7.2-2 (we skipped from 7.1-2 to 7.3).  A : The original question was for a VAXstation 4000/90, so the userBB : doesn't have the option of going to V7.2-2.  The Vx.y-z releases : are Alpha-only.t  = I forgot the important qualification of my station, so let me 
 say it right:   / As of V6.0, the Vx.y-z releases are Alpha-only.u --   Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net = Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/k   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:24:21 GMT , From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})N Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise% Message-ID: <1013408661snz@dsl.co.uk>:  & In article <3C6759E1.929AADDF@ev1.net>6            richmond@ev1.net "Charles Richmond" writes:  C > The Wewentoc Indians and the Cumbrians counting the same way...toaE > me says that they were *both* effected by the Vikings. It is prettynD > well known that the Vikings visited the coast of Maine long before& > Columbus ever set foot in America...  H Ah, but that counting system is obviously of a Celtic origin; now whilstI the Vikings were in the Isle of Man and Wales (not to mention Ireland andhF Scotland), their language did not contribute to the counting system inC use in the Celtic languages since some considerable time before thec advent of the Vikings.   -- aM Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.ukeM     "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one ofyM     distributed ignorance.  And we know and understand less while being incr- M     easingly capable."              Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:33:55 +0000 (UTC)U' From: Torsten <virus@fraqz.archeron.dk>pY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise     of    c, Message-ID: <a49gsi$4vf$1@news.cybercity.dk>  M I alt.folklore.computers skrev Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com>:   G > A number like 86 in Danish is 'six-and-four-twenties' (seks-og-fjers)r > afaik.  ? Almost right. It's "seksogfirs", or, in a more formal register,c> "seksogfirsindstyve". The latter literally means "six and fourA times twenty". A number like 93 is even more fun: "treoghalvfems"k> or "treoghalvfemsindstyve" - "three and (a) half (before) five times twenty".   /Torsten   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:06:03 GMTn) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>xY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of      co6' Message-ID: <3C686A8B.5D670BE4@ev1.net>y   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > ' > In article <1013375511snz@dsl.co.uk>,n1 >  bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes:  > |>L > |>                   He'd even found reports of some native American tribeJ > |> (the Wawentoc Indians) being discovered in northern Maine in the veryM > |> early 16th century using a similar counting method: which must give somelJ > |> credence to the idea that the Welshman Madoc did go to America in the > |> first millennium AD.m > - > Or maybe it was St. Brendan the Navigator!!t > H > (Columbus was either a fraud or a fool, but in the end he "discovered"0 > nothing that hadn't already been deiscovered.) > 7 But at least he got the government to pay for it all!!!i   -- l? +-------------------------------------------------------------+o? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |u? +-------------------------------------------------------------+C   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:09:00 -0500l; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>*7 Subject: Re: The stupidity of granting software patentsm$ Message-ID: <3c684f25$1@news.si.com>  F >McD's was warned about the coffee. But dropping the temp meant peopleG >could taste the quality (NOT!!), and they would not spend the 0.2c/cupnE >to buy better coffee. The jury estimated the total from coffee salesa >and awarded it to her.   J Of course, she only got a fraction of the jury award, after it was reduced
 by the judge.h --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comM= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventu< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Feb 2002 01:36:43 GMT+ From: "Joe Heimann" <heimann@ecs.umass.edu> 7 Subject: Re: The stupidity of granting software patents , Message-ID: <a49rjb$ee3$3@odo.ecs.umass.edu>  2 Bill Gunshannon <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote:6 > In article <VA.0000052f.17ee1807@bluewin.delete.ch>,4 >  Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> writes: > |>N > |> OK, let's take a step back and talk of academia (which you know far more O > |> about than me), where folks can maybe afford to develop software for free.u > |> i  J > Academia needs money just as much as any other business.  It's just thatJ > some of us are restricted by law and local policies as to how we can getK > that money.  For example, I can give away obsolete equipment, I can tradeCJ > it for other equipment.  I can even throw it in the dumpster.  I can not
 > sell it.  F And it is even more restricted in other states.  For instance, I or myF boss can not give away obselete equipment under the disposal rules forG university equipment in this state.  The rest of Bill's list does applyME though we are not supposed to dumpster it, it gets turned over to theaH recycling operation that sells it to bidders.  How much they get dependsH on the current contract.  Occasionally, after large amounts of red tape,E some can be donated to non-profit organizations for refurbishment andp reuse.  E > And, not all schools are as generous as UCB was.  Ever try to get a. > copy of UCSD-Pascal??-   > bill   Joe Heimann    Engineering Computer Servicesr College of Engineering& University of Massachusetts at Amherst   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 22:47:44 +0000 (UTC)i1 From: lewis@lumina.xxx.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)s/ Subject: Re: Transferring O/S to new hard drivet. Message-ID: <a49hmg$p1o$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  s GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes in article <3C6808D7.6EDEE5F6@cumulus.com> dated Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:05:43 GMT:pB >I purchased a new ST32550N SCSCI drive for a vaxstation 4000 vlc.A >I used to remember how to do this back in the 785 days, but havenF >forgotten the procedure precisely.  The original drive is DKA200:.  II >don't know and couldn't see any scsi terminators on the old drive.  WithsF >both drives hooked up the system boots, but you should also know thatH >this is a kludge set up only to get the o/s over to the new drive.  The@ >o/s, when I SHOW DEV show the new drive as DKA0: and online and >allocated. E >I did a MOUNT/FOR DKA0:  and then  BACKUP/IMAGE/IGN=INTERLOCK/VERIFYsH >SYS$SYSDEVICE: DKA0:    It acted like it was transferring and the smallD >led on the new seagate was blinking but after a while I never got a, >message back and found the system had hung. >Now what??e  K I'm not familiar with the hardware you have, just the OS.  So forgive me ifs I write something stupid.r  I Even with /ignore=interlock you don't get a good copy of a running system G disk.  Although why your system hung is a mystery to me; it should have ! just given you a screwed up copy.O  K To do the job properly, you need to boot from a third disk -- either a "VMSeF binaries" CD-ROM or a third hard drive with at least standalone backup. installed (@SYS$UPDATE:STABACKIT does this).    F If you can't get your hands on a third drive, you can try this kludge:       Boot from the old disk.       INIT and MOUNT the new disk.F     Use SYS$UPDATE:STABACKIT to install a minimum VMS on the new disk.B     Boot that using the appropriate flags (E,0 is right for alpha)/     MOUNT the old disk (I recommend read-only).t?     $ BACKUP DKA200:[*...]*.* DKA0:[*...]/OWN=ORIG/NEW_VERSION i<     Delete DKA0:[SYS0]SYSCOMMON.DIR and everything under it.@     $ SET FILE [000000]VMS$COMMON.DIR /ENTER=[SYS0]SYSCOMMON.DIR1     Boot from the new disk with the normal flags.   L It's easier if you boot from a third disk, though.  Then you can do an image backup.   / --Keith Lewis              klewis@mitre.xxx.org G Delete the x's if you want to send me something other than advertising. > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 18:17:03 -0500f- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> / Subject: Re: Transferring O/S to new hard driveo, Message-ID: <3C6850E9.E30FF033@videotron.ca>   "Keith A. Lewis" wrote:-L >> Even with /ignore=interlock you don't get a good copy of a running system > disk.   K But for practical purposes, it is a good copy *IF* you are the only user onCE the source system and you've shutdown layered products that have somet' background activity on the system disk.e  K What you do risk is missing entries in log files. WOrse case, the log fileslN are corrupt, so when you reboot on the new disk, you just delete them and haveP the systemn create new empty ones. For a hobbyist system, this is not a problem.  M My recommendation is to add /LOG to the backup command to see the activity asiE files are being copied and getting an idea of where the backup fails.   F Also, you can issue <CTRL-T> from Backup and that provides addituional3 information, such as which file is being processed.     B > Although why your system hung is a mystery to me; it should have# > just given you a screwed up copy.>  K Not necessarily. If the source or target disk drives are generating errors, - this will slow down the backup significantly.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 17:45:39 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)/ Subject: Re: Transferring O/S to new hard drive = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0202111745.59e9e78d@posting.google.com>e  U GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> wrote in message news:<3C6808D7.6EDEE5F6@cumulus.com>...iC > I purchased a new ST32550N SCSCI drive for a vaxstation 4000 vlc. B > I used to remember how to do this back in the 785 days, but haveG > forgotten the procedure precisely.  The original drive is DKA200:.  IaJ > don't know and couldn't see any scsi terminators on the old drive.  WithG > both drives hooked up the system boots, but you should also know that I > this is a kludge set up only to get the o/s over to the new drive.  TheUA > o/s, when I SHOW DEV show the new drive as DKA0: and online and  > allocated.F > I did a MOUNT/FOR DKA0:  and then  BACKUP/IMAGE/IGN=INTERLOCK/VERIFYI > SYS$SYSDEVICE: DKA0:    It acted like it was transferring and the small E > led on the new seagate was blinking but after a while I never got aS- > message back and found the system had hung.0 > Now what??  I are the old and new disk drives identical drives?  if not, you better use.6 a "/noinit" or you will have problems w/that image ...   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 04:56:20 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> / Subject: Re: Transferring O/S to new hard drivei' Message-ID: <3C68A1EF.1B9388AC@fsi.net>s   Bob Ceculski wrote:o > W > GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> wrote in message news:<3C6808D7.6EDEE5F6@cumulus.com>...wE > > I purchased a new ST32550N SCSCI drive for a vaxstation 4000 vlc. D > > I used to remember how to do this back in the 785 days, but haveI > > forgotten the procedure precisely.  The original drive is DKA200:.  IcL > > don't know and couldn't see any scsi terminators on the old drive.  WithI > > both drives hooked up the system boots, but you should also know thattK > > this is a kludge set up only to get the o/s over to the new drive.  TheeC > > o/s, when I SHOW DEV show the new drive as DKA0: and online andt > > allocated.H > > I did a MOUNT/FOR DKA0:  and then  BACKUP/IMAGE/IGN=INTERLOCK/VERIFYK > > SYS$SYSDEVICE: DKA0:    It acted like it was transferring and the smallsG > > led on the new seagate was blinking but after a while I never got ac/ > > message back and found the system had hung.h > > Now what?? > K > are the old and new disk drives identical drives?  if not, you better useo8 > a "/noinit" or you will have problems w/that image ...  ) Um, Bob? Better think that through again.   2 If the disks are different, then /INIT is correct.  D /NOINIT will use whatever is already there for volume label, clusterF size, etc., but will otherwise adjust INDEXF.SYS appropriately and doa few other things.   G I've never tried /NOINIT to a disk that hadn't first been INIT'ed, so Iq can't say what might happen.  D By the way: try a BACKUP/LIST of the .B saveset in a VAX distro. YouH might be surprised to found out what the source disk was. The last one IE looked at was around V5.5-2 or so, and I think it came from something8 like an RZ24 or so.e   -- d David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/W   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:03:00 -0600 C From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> / Subject: Re: Transferring O/S to new hard driveeH Message-ID: <craig.berry-BC3E3D.23025911022002@news.directvinternet.com>  F What is the definition of "system had hung"?  Were you able to log in I from elsewhere and determine if there were device errrors, if the backup ># process was still doing I/Os, etc.?r  H When adding a drive (particularly a used, refurbished, rescued from the D dumpster, or otherwise questionable drive for a hobbyist system), I A generally mount it foreign and do an ANALYZE/MEDIA/EXERCISE/LOG, rG essentially the equivalent of a low-level format that will map out bad cD blocks.  Only then do I initialize and load stuff on it.  BACKUP is E pretty relentless so the fact that it mostly or partly works doesn't  > necessarily mean the drive is ok.  My experience is only with : alphastations, but I assume it would be the same on vaxen.  + In article <3C6808D7.6EDEE5F6@cumulus.com>,r$  GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> wrote:  C > I purchased a new ST32550N SCSCI drive for a vaxstation 4000 vlc.gB > I used to remember how to do this back in the 785 days, but haveG > forgotten the procedure precisely.  The original drive is DKA200:.  I J > don't know and couldn't see any scsi terminators on the old drive.  WithG > both drives hooked up the system boots, but you should also know thatiI > this is a kludge set up only to get the o/s over to the new drive.  ThenA > o/s, when I SHOW DEV show the new drive as DKA0: and online and0 > allocated.F > I did a MOUNT/FOR DKA0:  and then  BACKUP/IMAGE/IGN=INTERLOCK/VERIFYI > SYS$SYSDEVICE: DKA0:    It acted like it was transferring and the small E > led on the new seagate was blinking but after a while I never got a@- > message back and found the system had hung.. > Now what??   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 06:16:14 GMT " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>/ Subject: Re: Transferring O/S to new hard drive + Message-ID: <3C68B412.83A1D81C@cumulus.com>    JF Mezei wrote:d >  > "Keith A. Lewis" wrote:oN > >> Even with /ignore=interlock you don't get a good copy of a running system	 > > disk.e > M > But for practical purposes, it is a good copy *IF* you are the only user ontG > the source system and you've shutdown layered products that have somee) > background activity on the system disk.p > M > What you do risk is missing entries in log files. WOrse case, the log fileslP > are corrupt, so when you reboot on the new disk, you just delete them and haveR > the systemn create new empty ones. For a hobbyist system, this is not a problem. > O > My recommendation is to add /LOG to the backup command to see the activity as G > files are being copied and getting an idea of where the backup fails.  > H > Also, you can issue <CTRL-T> from Backup and that provides addituional5 > information, such as which file is being processed.c > D > > Although why your system hung is a mystery to me; it should have% > > just given you a screwed up copy.b > M > Not necessarily. If the source or target disk drives are generating errors, / > this will slow down the backup significantly.   H Thanks for you help.  I found my problem, but the <CTRL-T> during backupE helped me monitor the situation a little better.  It shown me that my-G original drive and the new drive were in the wrong position on the scsi G cable.  By putting the original drive at the end of the scsi chain, and H unterminating the new drive and putting in between the old drive and theC system, backup performed ok.  There were a lot of parity errors butoH these were to do with the Motif fonts only for some reason and the old CG starlet libs. But the new drive boots fine on its own now.  I went from H a 120Mb Connor drive to a 2 GB seagate barracuda drive at 7200 rpm.  TheE old one was only 3300 rpm.  It sure sped up the boot up tho.  The one A thing I did have to pay attention on the barracuda was to use thetH default termination jumper selection and also to match, for some reason,E the scsi ID # of 2 in this case as that was the old drives scsi ID #.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:06:57 -0800b% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> ) Subject: Ultimate Workstation vs. AS 1200e) Message-ID: <3C685CA1.F103E2FB@rdrop.com>t  4 > >AFAIK, OpenVMS does unfortunately NOT work on the > >Ultimate Workstation. Sigh   3 SHHH! Don't tell mine, eh?  I've been running 7.2-1 2 on it for some time now.  It is true that it won't like the video card- so?   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:52:58 GMTd* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)- Subject: Re: Ultimate Workstation vs. AS 1200 5 Message-ID: <KHZ98.592009$5G5.4251769@news.chello.at>   Q In article <3C685CA1.F103E2FB@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes:15 >> >AFAIK, OpenVMS does unfortunately NOT work on thef >> >Ultimate Workstation. Sigh >:4 >SHHH! Don't tell mine, eh?  I've been running 7.2-13 >on it for some time now.  It is true that it won'tc >like the video card- so?o  L So I stand corrected (and amused, because there is currently one at ebay ;-)   -- 6< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111 2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111 888e< KAPSCH AG      Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 01:06:04 GMTe( From: "Mark E. Levy" <mlevy70@attbi.com>- Subject: Re: Ultimate Workstation vs. AS 12000. Message-ID: <%TZ98.37489$Pz4.225063@rwcrnsc53>   Not any more...:  J > So I stand corrected (and amused, because there is currently one at ebay ;-)-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:37:52 -0500e; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>o5 Subject: Re: VMS Spokesperson Nominee For Ad Campaignv$ Message-ID: <3c6863f8$1@news.si.com>  K >I remember one from several years ago for a petrol company, which showed a L >typical fairground carousel of horses and one came to life and ran off into >the distance.  9 I think you were just watching a rerun of "Mary Poppins".n --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comt= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventc< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:25:40 +0000p. From: Graham Burley <100625.30@compuserve.com>Q Subject: Re: VMS usage in UK hospitals, was: Re: The Inq : The OpenVMS on Itanium . Message-ID: <3C681AB4.7A1EC7ED@compuserve.com>   Main, Kerry wrote: > + > Intersystems testimonials and references:r > ? > http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/partner_quotes2.htmlDH > " InterSystems Corporation, Paul Grabscheid, Vice President, StrategicA > Planning:    "With thousands of mission-critical Alpha systems, D > InterSystems' customers depend on Compaq for the highest levels ofH > reliability and scalability. Joining the proven OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIXH > operating systems with the latest processor technology from Intel willH > enable our Cache Post-Relational Database to continue to deliver theseA > benefits in healthcare, financial services and other industries  > worldwide. " >   4 This is the lastest I can find on InterSystems site:  + http://www.intersystems.com/cache/ia64.html' "3 December 2001" $ "Cache Will Be Supported on Itanium"B "Engineering work is underway to support Cache on Itanium and bothB 64-bit Windows XP and 64-bit Linux operating systems, with plannedC release dates during 2002. We also plan to support Cache on ItaniumnD systems running Hewlett-Packard s HP/UX operating system, although a> target release date has not yet been set. In addition, we haveA conducted preliminary investigations of Itanium support for othercA operating systems, including Compaq OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX. FinalcF decisions will be made on these when Itanium versions of the operating systems become available."  7 Not quite so positive, but maybe I'm being unrealistic.e   Graham   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Feb 2002 14:01:12 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Q Subject: Re: VMS usage in UK hospitals, was: Re: The Inq : The OpenVMS on Itaniumi3 Message-ID: <MGxsDTrLDvd$@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <3C681AB4.7A1EC7ED@compuserve.com>, Graham Burley <100625.30@compuserve.com> writes:v  6 > This is the lastest I can find on InterSystems site: > - > http://www.intersystems.com/cache/ia64.htmli > "3 December 2001"r& > "Cache Will Be Supported on Itanium"D > "Engineering work is underway to support Cache on Itanium and bothD > 64-bit Windows XP and 64-bit Linux operating systems, with plannedE > release dates during 2002. We also plan to support Cache on ItaniumaF > systems running Hewlett-Packard s HP/UX operating system, although a@ > target release date has not yet been set. In addition, we haveC > conducted preliminary investigations of Itanium support for othertC > operating systems, including Compaq OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX. Final H > decisions will be made on these when Itanium versions of the operating > systems become available." > 9 > Not quite so positive, but maybe I'm being unrealistic.r  ; It is more positive than certain posters in this newsgroup.@   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:04:48 -05005+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>IQ Subject: RE: VMS usage in UK hospitals, was: Re: The Inq : The OpenVMS on ItaniumoT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1C82@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Graham,n  > >>> Not quite so positive, but maybe I'm being unrealistic.<<<  B Well, in all fairness to Intersystems and other ISV's, meeting anyF public dates they commit to is very dependant on both Compaq and IntelD meeting their committments, so, imho - they are just being cautious.   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior ConsultantR Compaq Canada Corp.  Professional Servicesi Voice: 613-592-4660d Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----5 From: Graham Burley [mailto:100625.30@compuserve.com]e Sent: February 11, 2002 2:26 PMd To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com F Subject: Re: VMS usage in UK hospitals, was: Re: The Inq : The OpenVMS
 on Itanium     Main, Kerry wrote: >=20+ > Intersystems testimonials and references:u >=20? > http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/partner_quotes2.htmlyH > " InterSystems Corporation, Paul Grabscheid, Vice President, StrategicA > Planning:    "With thousands of mission-critical Alpha systems,dD > InterSystems' customers depend on Compaq for the highest levels ofH > reliability and scalability. Joining the proven OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIXH > operating systems with the latest processor technology from Intel willH > enable our Cache Post-Relational Database to continue to deliver theseA > benefits in healthcare, financial services and other industries  > worldwide. " >=20  4 This is the lastest I can find on InterSystems site:  + http://www.intersystems.com/cache/ia64.htmlM "3 December 2001"i$ "Cache Will Be Supported on Itanium"B "Engineering work is underway to support Cache on Itanium and bothB 64-bit Windows XP and 64-bit Linux operating systems, with plannedC release dates during 2002. We also plan to support Cache on Itanium D systems running Hewlett-Packard s HP/UX operating system, although a> target release date has not yet been set. In addition, we haveA conducted preliminary investigations of Itanium support for other A operating systems, including Compaq OpenVMS and Tru64 UNIX. FinalpF decisions will be made on these when Itanium versions of the operating systems become available."  7 Not quite so positive, but maybe I'm being unrealistic./   Graham   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 00:48:45 GMT % From: Peter Kukla <nospam@nospam.com>I* Subject: VMS users group in Columbus Ohio?> Message-ID: <NDZ98.37632$s43.11843059@typhoon.columbus.rr.com>  7 I've been looking around, but haven't been able to findi5 anything resembling a VMS user's group in the Central : Ohio area.  Does anybody know whether such a thing exists?    	 Thanks...a   -peter   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:27:12 -0500 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>. Subject: Re: VMS users group in Columbus Ohio?- Message-ID: <3C683730.9596.4FFE1CE@localhost>a  9 > I've been looking around, but haven't been able to findt7 > anything resembling a VMS user's group in the Central < > Ohio area.  Does anybody know whether such a thing exists?  $ If you find one, let me know, too...    
 --Stan Quayleu! President, Quayle Consulting Inc.   
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671g1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147a= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.comC   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:54:01 GMTd* From: Jose Arroyo <Jose.Arroyo@pandora.be>? Subject: Re: Where does VMS fit in here? (Was Re: HP admits...)8* Message-ID: <3C68212E.C530CF34@pandora.be>   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  ' > In article <a3jkt7$4t1@web.nmti.com>,e, >    peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:J > >In article <a3bc69$3kf$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:F > >> Portable???!!!  What are you talking about?  The purpose of an OS2 > >> is to deliver computing services to the user. > > H > >The purpose of the OS is to manage resources on behalf of application > programs.r > > F > >A portable OS is one that provides the same abstraction on multiple > platforms. > > F > >The implementation may be slightly or even significantly different, > dependingDK > >on the hardware design and how the OS is laid out... but there's a clearaJ > >advantage to not making people rewrite their apps every time they get a > news > >computer. > J > I wouldn't call this a _portable_ OS.  I'd call it backwards compatible.C > My interpretation of portable is a program that doesn't care what D > hardware it runs on.  At the OS level it had better care about theH > hardware it's running on...or how else is it going to trap interrupts,B > set up IOWD (IO words), or deliver software packets to specified> > hardware addresses?  These intimate little details cannot beC > invisible to an OS.  If it is invisible, then the OS is merely ancF > app.  The TOPS-10 emulators are apps.  A TOPS-10 running under those> > emulators becomes an app because _it has no knowledge of the > hardware_. > >d  G Totally agree. I think one uses term "portability" for OSes. Yet I haved< never seen a portable OS. Portability should be a applied to applications. A F "portable" OS is like a group of C-programs that only use non-hardwareC related, standard, calls. That is not completely an OS. Sometimes I 	 wonder ifsD those people talking about OS portability knows really what an OS is (all about)   >aG > >Of course if you're the hardware manufacturer, having the apps be ant	 > barrier , > >to your customers leaving you is a bonus. > >n% > yea.  I lived through one of those.l >  > /BAH >c) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    Jose Arroyo    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 17:21:03 -0500u+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>p? Subject: RE: Where does VMS fit in here? (Was Re: HP admits...)aT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1C83@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Jose,a  H >>> Yet I have never seen a portable OS. Portability should be a applied to applications. >>>   I agree.  B I suspect the ideal system for many Customers today (not all) is aD proprietary OS/HW platform, but that has application software layersD that are built on top of industry standards and/or initiatives (e.g.6 XML, Java, LDAP, J2EE, PKI, X.509, TCPIP, HTTP(s) etc)  G This would provide the Customer with an infrastructure that has the max E levels of RASS (reliability, availability, scalability and security),pD but yet still has the interoperability and integration features they) need to meet their business requirements.-  A I suspect this is what IBM has in mind with its "Linux mainframe"aD strategy ie. Linux applications running on a renamed VM OS mainframe platform.=20  H And in case one thinks this Linux mainframe is portable, check this page) out for an example of how portable it is:i  " http://www.vm.ibm.com/service/news     :-)g   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultante Compaq Canada Corp.  Professional Servicesa Voice: 613-592-4660t Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----1 From: Jose Arroyo [mailto:Jose.Arroyo@pandora.be]i Sent: February 11, 2002 2:54 PMt To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComM? Subject: Re: Where does VMS fit in here? (Was Re: HP admits...)o         jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  ' > In article <a3jkt7$4t1@web.nmti.com>,f, >    peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:C > >In article <a3bc69$3kf$1@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com>d wrote:F > >> Portable???!!!  What are you talking about?  The purpose of an OS2 > >> is to deliver computing services to the user. > >uH > >The purpose of the OS is to manage resources on behalf of application > programs.d > >fF > >A portable OS is one that provides the same abstraction on multiple > platforms. > >aF > >The implementation may be slightly or even significantly different, > depending E > >on the hardware design and how the OS is laid out... but there's ao cleareH > >advantage to not making people rewrite their apps every time they get ad > newu > >computer. > > > I wouldn't call this a _portable_ OS.  I'd call it backwards compatible.sC > My interpretation of portable is a program that doesn't care whattD > hardware it runs on.  At the OS level it had better care about theH > hardware it's running on...or how else is it going to trap interrupts,B > set up IOWD (IO words), or deliver software packets to specified> > hardware addresses?  These intimate little details cannot beC > invisible to an OS.  If it is invisible, then the OS is merely an@F > app.  The TOPS-10 emulators are apps.  A TOPS-10 running under those> > emulators becomes an app because _it has no knowledge of the > hardware_. > >o  G Totally agree. I think one uses term "portability" for OSes. Yet I haven< never seen a portable OS. Portability should be a applied to applications. AyF "portable" OS is like a group of C-programs that only use non-hardwareC related, standard, calls. That is not completely an OS. Sometimes Ip	 wonder iftD those people talking about OS portability knows really what an OS is (all about)   >sG > >Of course if you're the hardware manufacturer, having the apps be any	 > barriere, > >to your customers leaving you is a bonus. > > % > yea.  I lived through one of those.t >d > /BAH >h) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    Jose Arroyo    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Feb 2002 03:25:33 +0100* From: eplan@kapsch.net (Peter LANGSTOEGER)  Subject: Re: x29 AND DTE ADDRESS* Message-ID: <3c687d1d$1@news.kapsch.co.at>  u In article <bc0e3bd8.0201101303.3e77df37@posting.google.com>, pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk (pat saunders) writes: E >  Does anyone know how to configure the x25/x29 DTE address of a vax A >using DECNET/OSI. I need to configure it again to be able to SETu >HOST/X29 /DTE<ADDRESS> ETCu  H Maybe you mean using names instead of DTE addresses, so that you can use   	$ SET HOST/X29 remote-noden  I This can be done by populating the PSI$DTE_TABLE (sp?) logical name tabley? with entries containing the (profile-name and the) DTE address.n   -- t< Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER           Tel.    +43 1 81111 2651; Network and OpenVMS system manager  Fax.    +43 1 81111 888r< KAPSCH AG      Wagenseilgasse 1     E-mail  eplan@kapsch.netH A-1121 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 16:24:15 -0500e* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>E Subject: RE: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The d - Message-ID: <0033000052617777000002L072*@MHS>a  H =0A>The Vikings influenced all of England from what I've read.  In fact= ,IH >I think the History Channel recently had a special on Viking influence=   >in England.  $ So that explains the spam song then.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETe' Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 4:14 PMmB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETE Subject: RE: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The d     4 In article <3c735ee7.63714673@news.btopenworld.com>,# greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote:-  H | Scots, some of them claim, is actually a separate language rather tha= nsE | a dialect of English. It does have a lot of unique words for common0D | things, and a different grammar. But so do most accents in the UK.F | There's loads of fabulous dialect words from all over the place thatH | have fallen out of use, and loads more that haven't and could be used=   | to confuse Americans with.  B I have found that a lot of words I grew up hearing in the southernH Appalachians are common in Ireland.  The first time I heard an Irishman=  B visiting looking "up yonder" and things like that was interesting.H Then there is the heavy English influence in Virginia, especially easte= rn/ Virginia, which is of course much more obvious.S  D | I'm from Yorkshire, I'm young but old enough to understand what myA | elders are saying, even if I don't use that language myself. My-H | Grandad's a great one for coming out with stuff and hilarious phrases= .   D I spent summers in the Appalachian mountains (heavy Irish, Scottish,C and a mix of other influences like German, Scandanavian, and Dutch).D and lived in eastern Virginia.  The Tidewater accent is a unique mixE of low-South, English, some northern, and also international accents. F There is a definite "Tidewater accent/dialect", but it's also easy forC us to speak in ways that make it difficult for other people to telle@ where we are from.  I've been labeled English, Yankee, southern,> and even Irish before.  Only a small percentage of locals have@ the really unique Tidewater accent which marks them pretty well.F The rest of us could, at one time or another, be from almost anywhere.A It's not uncommon for people's accents to vary from week to week.s  ? The Appalachian dialect of English is not explicitely southern.sA It's unique just like that of the highlands in Georgia.  I rarelynA use the dialect unique to the mountains, but I understand it when 
 I hear it.  C Then there are some things which are beyond mere dialectic changes.-B For example, even a lot of highlanders don't know what is meant by "Don't cut yer foot up yonder".c  4 | But yup, Scots was influenced more by the Vikings,  H Hmmmm... one of the five Irish kingdoms crossed to Ireland and conquere= deD the Picts who were there.  I thought it was therefore Irish and Pict4 mixing that created the Scottish dialect and accent.  D The Vikings influenced all of England from what I've read.  In fact,F I think the History Channel recently had a special on Viking influence in England.=   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 14:16:46 -0500 5 From: Charles Shannon Hendrix <shannon@widomaker.com>NY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      comC8 Message-ID: <slrna6g60d.f2.shannon@daydream.shannon.net>  X In article <3c735ee7.63714673@news.btopenworld.com>, greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote:  H | Scots, some of them claim, is actually a separate language rather thanE | a dialect of English. It does have a lot of unique words for commonoD | things, and a different grammar. But so do most accents in the UK.F | There's loads of fabulous dialect words from all over the place thatG | have fallen out of use, and loads more that haven't and could be usedn | to confuse Americans with.  B I have found that a lot of words I grew up hearing in the southernG Appalachians are common in Ireland.  The first time I heard an IrishmanoB visiting looking "up yonder" and things like that was interesting.I Then there is the heavy English influence in Virginia, especially easternv/ Virginia, which is of course much more obvious.e  D | I'm from Yorkshire, I'm young but old enough to understand what myA | elders are saying, even if I don't use that language myself. My6H | Grandad's a great one for coming out with stuff and hilarious phrases.  D I spent summers in the Appalachian mountains (heavy Irish, Scottish,C and a mix of other influences like German, Scandanavian, and Dutch)1D and lived in eastern Virginia.  The Tidewater accent is a unique mixE of low-South, English, some northern, and also international accents.pF There is a definite "Tidewater accent/dialect", but it's also easy forC us to speak in ways that make it difficult for other people to tellp@ where we are from.  I've been labeled English, Yankee, southern,> and even Irish before.  Only a small percentage of locals have@ the really unique Tidewater accent which marks them pretty well.F The rest of us could, at one time or another, be from almost anywhere.A It's not uncommon for people's accents to vary from week to week.   ? The Appalachian dialect of English is not explicitely southern.iA It's unique just like that of the highlands in Georgia.  I rarely A use the dialect unique to the mountains, but I understand it wheno
 I hear it.  C Then there are some things which are beyond mere dialectic changes.tB For example, even a lot of highlanders don't know what is meant by "Don't cut yer foot up yonder".   5 | But yup, Scots was influenced more by the Vikings, r  H Hmmmm... one of the five Irish kingdoms crossed to Ireland and conqueredD the Picts who were there.  I thought it was therefore Irish and Pict4 mixing that created the Scottish dialect and accent.  D The Vikings influenced all of England from what I've read.  In fact,F I think the History Channel recently had a special on Viking influence in England.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:31:45 -0700m4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise    of      com:8 Message-ID: <3gve6u0d76pan2vqijk9p8lf943kfnla2a@4ax.com>  ) On Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:31:01 +0000 (UTC),m# greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote:p  A >There was a "great vowel shift" around 1400 or 1500 when all the.G >vowels in England, as well as Germany and some of Europe IIRC, changedV9 >their sound. It happened very quickly and was to do withsE >communications or something. The Queen's English (and if that's whatnD >She Herself speaks I'm surprised that's what they chose on purpose)A >was meant to be a standard because at one point people literallyo  >couldn't understand each other.  2 SE English was heavily influenced by the Normans.   G >Scots, some of them claim, is actually a separate language rather than D >a dialect of English. It does have a lot of unique words for commonC >things, and a different grammar. But so do most accents in the UK.nE >There's loads of fabulous dialect words from all over the place thatdF >have fallen out of use, and loads more that haven't and could be used >to confuse Americans with.t >/C >I'm from Yorkshire, I'm young but old enough to understand what myl@ >elders are saying, even if I don't use that language myself. MyG >Grandad's a great one for coming out with stuff and hilarious phrases.g >sF >But yup, Scots was influenced more by the Vikings, and apparently hasG >a lot of common roots with modern Danish or Swedish, where English hasmG >a lot of Dutch in it. And of course the French and Germanic. I believeaD >it was Giles Todd who said you can get by in Dutch just by speaking >English in a silly accent.g  = Except for the Scottish dialect of Gaelic, the others are all 9 separate dialects of English: AFAIK at least east (Vikinge? influence), west (Irish/Viking), south (Lallans) and Glaswegiani? (heavy guttural Ulster/Northern Irish influence), which doesn't1/ sound anything like any other Scottish accent. a7 And Scots has a heavy French influence (vive la vielle??> alliance), with a lot of (contracted) loan words which are notA understood elsewhere in the UK (e.g. ashet, from French assiette:i plate). > I've been told that French spoken with a Glaswegian dialect is@ highly distinctive (maybe painful as opposed to distinguished).    -- -  9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada   F Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply   tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov 						spam traps   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 21:50:54 +0100 * From: Alexis Cousein <al@brussels.sgi.com>( Subject: Re: [off-topic] eighty et al.../ Message-ID: <3C682EAE.4080006@brussels.sgi.com>S   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  1 > In article <3C67CB06.9050107@brussels.sgi.com>, / >  Alexis Cousein <al@brussels.sgi.com> writes:- > |>G > |> 96 is "Quatre-vingt dix-neuf" (four twenty and nineteen) in Francep >    ^^>1 > |> and "nonante neuf" (ninety nine) in Belgium.  >  > I certainly hope not.  :-) >  Nope. I meant to type 99.b   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.083 ************************ter da Silva) wrote:J > >In article <a&Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q    &Q     'Q    'Q    'Q    'Q    'Q    'Q    'Q    'Q    'Q    	'Q    
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