0 INFO-VAX	Fri, 15 Feb 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 90      Contents: Re: "Crashless Windows"  Re: "Crashless Windows" A Re: ASTFLT in emacs21 - was Re: emacs21 working a little bit more A Re: ASTFLT in emacs21 - was Re: emacs21 working a little bit more  AW: DCL questions 8 Re: Batch job termination - OpenVMS v7.3 v. OpenVMS v7.14 Batch job termination - OpenVMS v7.3 v. OpenVMS v7.1 Re: CLI$_PARSE problemC Re: compaq logo on DECwindows login screen...how to get the old one 5 Re: DCL Minute of the St Valentine's Day: DCL_ANALYST 5 Re: DCL Minute of the St Valentine's Day: DCL_ANALYST 5 Re: DCL Minute of the St Valentine's Day: DCL_ANALYST  DCL procedure's  RE: DCL procedure's  Re: DCL procedure's  Re: DCL questions  Re: DCL questions  Gordon Bell site Re: Gordon Bell site Re: Gordon Bell site Re: Gordon Bell site Re: Gordon Bell site Re: Gordon Bell site Re: Gordon Bell site Re: Gordon Bell site Re: Gordon Bell site? Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies? ? Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies? D re:  Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?? Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies? D re:  Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?? Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies? ? Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies? ? Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies? ? Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies? ? Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies? ? Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies? ? Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies? ? Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies? P Hewlett-Packard's CEO Carly Fiorina is sounding pretty persuasive         these ' How to become a Hobbyist (the hard way) # Re: How to upgrade Miata (PWS 433a) 6 Re: Job Posting - VMS Managed Service Contract ManagerC Re: Job Posting - VMS Managed Service Contract Manager - Groton, CT / Re: Load Balancing DNA across 2*2MBit WAN links 8 Re: Longest VMS _cluster_ uptime, was: Re: 1 Year uptime8 Re: Longest VMS _cluster_ uptime, was: Re: 1 Year uptime8 RE: Longest VMS _cluster_ uptime, was: Re: 1 Year uptime menu RE: menu Re: menu Re: menu Re: menu RE: menu Re: OT: "Crashless Windows" 4 OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMS8 Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMS8 Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMS8 Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMS8 Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMS8 Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMS8 Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMSP Re: Scandinavian Language(s) was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veteran5 Re: Security for VMS systems visable to the  Internet 5 Re: Security for VMS systems visable to the  Internet 5 Re: Security for VMS systems visable to the  Internet 5 Re: Security for VMS systems visable to the  Internet  Software Question  Re: Software Question  Re: Software Question  Re: Software Question P Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise       of  P Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise       of   Re: TCPIP$Config  problems RE: TCPIP$Config  problems Re: vms 7.3 diagnostics - RE: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS? - RE: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS? - Re: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS? - Re: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS? - Re: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS? - RE: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS? P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of      compaq  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 06:19:47 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)   Subject: Re: "Crashless Windows"3 Message-ID: <5tn34Z7aS0o4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3C6C8934.A4860D01@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > David Beatty wrote: 	 >> [snip] 	 >> if you @ >> have a mission critical app. that's running on Windows [snip] > " > ...your stockholders should sue.  A But in the meantime, you should make sure you are getting paid by @ the hour, with a premium for overtime and a minimum for on-call.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:03:38 GMT   From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>  Subject: Re: "Crashless Windows"8 Message-ID: <7p8q6ucn3cu881j1kugnguoljgcf2hkdm4@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:53:40 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:    >"David J. Dachtera" wrote: 2 >> How many wrongs *DOES* it take to make a right? >  > M >That doesn't matter. When enough wrongs are made in the same direction, that L >direction becomes industry standard and the harm done by that wrong becomesM >accepted. Windows can be compared to cars that generate exhaust. People have K >gotten used to accepting the pollution, noise and dammage/deaths caused by E >cars and don't demand cars that don't pollute and don't kill people.   % I nominate JF as "Cynic of the Year".   1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq - (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:21:57 +0000 (UTC) 9 From: Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no> J Subject: Re: ASTFLT in emacs21 - was Re: emacs21 working a little bit more- Message-ID: <a4ijvl$aui$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>   ; Craig A. Berry <craig.berry@signaltreesolutions.com> wrote: ) : Roar Throns <roart@nvg.ntnu.no> wrote:   2 :> :> John E. Malmberg <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote:G :> : The C alloca() function must be implemented as a built-in to work  G :> : properly.  It assumes that the memory allocated is freed when the  & :> : procedure returns to it's caller. :>  2 :> It worked in 19.28 and with what I did in 20.7. :>  M :> I have tried using CCs builtin __alloca in 21.1, and get the same ASTFLTs.   G : That wouldn't be surprising since that might well give you allocation C : and deallocation done inline by the compiler plus the GNU garbage > : collector then later coming through and trying to deallocateF : something.  The possibility (one I did a poor job of articulating inE : an earlier off-list message) is that this could be happening anyway D : even though you are taking reasonable steps to ensure that the GNU : alloca is being used.   I But last I was not using the Emacs alloca at all; I did not even link the  module containing it. F And the Emacs garbage collector do not know anything at all about whatB the CC internal alloca does on the stack, so it will not touch it.  C : The documentation of CC /OPTIMIZE=INTRINSICS (part of the default A : optimize behavior) explicitly mentions alloca (not __alloca) as D : something that will be implemented as an intrinsic unless you take3 : steps to prevent it.  That documentation is here:     The .mms-files have /NOOPTIMIZE.  0 : #if __DECC_VER >= 60000000 && defined(__ALPHA)> : #pragma function (alloca) /* don't let it be an intrinsic */ : #endif  : I will have that in mind next time I use the Emacs alloca.  4 :> By disabling atimer, I did not get those ASTFLTS.  C : Which may only mean that the code that first trips over the stack > : corruption just happens to execute before it gets corrupted.  K :> And there are ASTs in ordinary use (like keyboard input), but these does  :> not trigger ASTFLTs. @ :> It must be something new with atimer and it's use of signals?L :> (Get the same results with HAVE_SETITIMER, but I suspect the implemention :> is about the same)  :>  6 :> Anyone who knows how alarm is implemented nowadays?  : : Dunno.  I think signals are implemented with sys$sigprc.  6 That one is undocumented (belongs with NSA$, it seems)  C I know that the crtl alarm 9 years ago was implemented by using the : system services $setimr and $cantim (no surprise there...)   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 10:48:36 -0800: From: craig.berry@signaltreesolutions.com (Craig A. Berry)J Subject: Re: ASTFLT in emacs21 - was Re: emacs21 working a little bit more= Message-ID: <aae510ff.0202151048.16f5ff15@posting.google.com>   [ Roar Throns <roart@nvg.ntnu.no> wrote in message news:<a4ijvl$aui$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>... H > And the Emacs garbage collector do not know anything at all about whatD > the CC internal alloca does on the stack, so it will not touch it.  E Good.  I wasn't sure it was that smart.  From my (admittedly limited) @ knowledge of GNU alloca, the other thing to watch out for is theD STACK_DIRECTION macro.  I seem to remember undef'ing it and allowing9 stack direction to be determined at run-time worked best.   E > : The documentation of CC /OPTIMIZE=INTRINSICS (part of the default C > : optimize behavior) explicitly mentions alloca (not __alloca) as F > : something that will be implemented as an intrinsic unless you take5 > : steps to prevent it.  That documentation is here:  > " > The .mms-files have /NOOPTIMIZE.  = Ah, that should rule out the problem I was speculating about.   B > :> It must be something new with atimer and it's use of signals?N > :> (Get the same results with HAVE_SETITIMER, but I suspect the implemention > :> is about the same)  > :>  8 > :> Anyone who knows how alarm is implemented nowadays? >   < > : Dunno.  I think signals are implemented with sys$sigprc. > 8 > That one is undocumented (belongs with NSA$, it seems) > E > I know that the crtl alarm 9 years ago was implemented by using the < > system services $setimr and $cantim (no surprise there...)  E Well, if we have to worry about how the C RTL implements such things, C then something's wrong with the C RTL.  That might be the case, but 9 it's a lot less likely than it was even 3 or 4 years ago.   D I'm afraid I have nothing else to offer except a couple of generally related speculations.   B See the docs on ualarm() for caveats regarding ASTs.  It also says< "Interactions between ualarm and either alarm , or sleep are
 unspecified."   F If there is a sigaction() involved, make sure the signals passed to itF are supported.  For example, if you pass a SIGCONT, the docs correctlyD state this is invalid; however, the C RTL routine is broken and willC not return -1 as it should in this case, so you could have a signal 2 delivery appearing to succeed that doesn't really.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:58:04 +0100 + From: "Parlow, Axel" <parlow@fiz-chemie.de>  Subject: AW: DCL questionsD Message-ID: <459e7ff4d0692c375dfa7dfc2bf420583c6ccd9f@fiz-chemie.de>   Here is another one: $ verify=3Df$verify(0) $! $! WEEKNUMBER.COM # $! weeknumber calculation from date  $!=20   $! P1 =3D date (empty =3D today)5 $! output: weeknumber in symbol WN, always two digits  $! $       date =3D p1 . $       IF date .EQS. "" THEN date =3D "Today"' $       day  =3D F$CVTIME (date,,"DAY") " $       IF .NOT. $status THEN exit $!) $       month=3D F$CVTIME (date,,"MONTH") ( $       year =3D F$CVTIME (date,,"YEAR") $       IF month .LE. 2  $       THEN( $           yday =3D 31 * (month - 1)=20 $       ELSE1 $           yday =3D (306 * month - 324) / 10 + =  ((year-1)-(year-1)/4*4)/3 > $	    if year/100*100 .eq. year .and. year/400*400 .ne. year - 		then yday=3Dyday-1
 $       ENDIF  $	day =3D day + yday $!/ $       weekday =3D F$EXTRACT (0, 2, F$CVTIME =  ("1-JAN-''year'",,"WEEKDAY")) J $       offset  =3D (F$LOCATE (weekday, "FrSaSuMoTuWeTh")/2) + 3  ! from = 3 to 9I $       week    =3D (day + offset) / 7                           ! from =  0 to 52  $	if week.eq.0=20  $	then, $! weeknumber from last year: same as 31-dec $		fy =3D year-1+ $		@'f$environment("procedure") 31-dec-'fy'  $		exit  $	endif  $	ddum =3D offset + ydayA $	if week.eq.53 .and. ddum.ge.339 .and. ddum.le.342 then week=3D1  $! $ wn =3D=3D f$fao("!2ZW",week)0 $ if f$mode() .eqs. "INTERACTIVE" then sh sym wn $! $ if verify then $ set verify    > 0 >Is there a better Ng to post any DCL questions?E >Would like to know if it is possible to generate the weeknumber with 	 >f$cvtime    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:56:38 +0100 & From: "tim" <t_stekkinger@hotmail.com>A Subject: Re: Batch job termination - OpenVMS v7.3 v. OpenVMS v7.1 4 Message-ID: <Hv7b8.49872$W05.116065@zonnet-reader-1>  
 Hi andrew,  . have you already tryed to execute this command   STOP/QUEUE/ENTRY=<ENTRY-NUMBER>   " maybe this will bring the solution  	 greetings    Timothy Stekkinger     ----- Original Message -----8 From: "Andrew Rycroft" <andrew.rycroft@intrinsitech.com> Newsgroups: comp.os.vms ' Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 1:26 PM = Subject: Batch job termination - OpenVMS v7.3 v. OpenVMS v7.1      > Hi,  > H > I have just upgrade to OpenVMS v7.3 from openVMS v7.1. We have a batchH > job that runs continuously. On occasion we stop it, and restart it. To > stop is we use >  > $ Delete/entry=n > H > On OpenVMS v7.1 this worked correctly on OpenVMS v7.3 the process goesG > into a loop, and uses all the CPU. I am unable to do a STOP PROC - it F > tells me non-existant process. Under SDA if I look at the process itF > has no channels open other than a disk drive, but it is doing no IO.) > It does not show any executable images.  > F > If I do a STOP/QUEUE/RESET the queue will eventually reset and stop,# > but the process keeps on running.  >  > Any suggestions appreciated. >  > Thanks > Andrew   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 04:26:42 -08006 From: andrew.rycroft@intrinsitech.com (Andrew Rycroft)= Subject: Batch job termination - OpenVMS v7.3 v. OpenVMS v7.1 = Message-ID: <58ba0101.0202150426.4fb4aee1@posting.google.com>    Hi,   F I have just upgrade to OpenVMS v7.3 from openVMS v7.1. We have a batchF job that runs continuously. On occasion we stop it, and restart it. To stop is we use   $ Delete/entry=n  F On OpenVMS v7.1 this worked correctly on OpenVMS v7.3 the process goesE into a loop, and uses all the CPU. I am unable to do a STOP PROC - it D tells me non-existant process. Under SDA if I look at the process itD has no channels open other than a disk drive, but it is doing no IO.' It does not show any executable images.   D If I do a STOP/QUEUE/RESET the queue will eventually reset and stop,! but the process keeps on running.    Any suggestions appreciated.   Thanks Andrew   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2002 07:01:07 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)  Subject: Re: CLI$_PARSE problem 5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-LLNRzRZtsz3P@localhost>   E On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:53:00 UTC, "cuz" <jcousins@kgo.csc.com> wrote:    > I have the following problem:  > 5 > I am making a call from Fortran/77 code as follows:  > / > OPCARD = '/FILENAME=JOECUZ.TXT /READ /TYPE=2' 6 > STATUS = CLI$DCL_PARSE( %REF(OPCARD), %REF(ATABLE) ) > N > The status returned by the parser is "CLI$_NOCOMD" (Routine Terminated.  YouG > entered a null string in response to a prompt from the prompt_routine  > argument). > F > It appears that the parser is not looking at the passed Table but isN > attempting to scan the input command line "OPCARD".  If I remove the leadingH > slash from the filename qualifier the status returned is "CLI$_IVVERB" > (Invalid or missing verb). > E > The CDU table containing the verb, qualifier descriptions and value K > requirements has been in place and used by other code sets for at least 5 H > years.  I have examined my load/link map and the one generated for theI > previously executing application and they appear to be the same for the  > passed table.  > F > Am I just missing something very obvious or am I as dumb as I feel ? > M > If I haven't supplied enough information ask me because I am really stumped  > on this one...  C Can you do it like this? I'm at home so I can't check my code that  A does this but ISTR my reading of the documentation lead me to be  F believe that DCL$PARSE calls a routine to fill the string that it willF parse. The arguments to DCL_PARSE are the references to, hence addressD of, the routine that fills in the string and one other that I can't > remember. That's certainly the way I do it. ie. something like  5  status =  cli$parse (... GET_STRING_TO_BE_PARSED ,, h table-command_table...)h    &  function GET_STRING_TO_BE_PARSED (A$)  5   A$ = setup.reply_buffer  ! copy stored/read commandc     return  A If you can do it just by passing the address of the buffer to be o6 parsed I've been doing things wrong all these years@!!   Must check again   -- v   Cheers - Dave.  F PS If it does work like that, you will, as Brian points out, need the  verb in the string :-C  4 OPCARD = 'myverb /FILENAME=JOECUZ.TXT /READ /TYPE=2'  4 or A$ =  'myverb /FILENAME=JOECUZ.TXT /READ /TYPE=2'   if I were doing it my way.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:30:04 -0500r. From: Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com>L Subject: Re: compaq logo on DECwindows login screen...how to get the old one. Message-ID: <3C6CB8FC.3DAF31E3@pressenter.com>  E I'd be happy with "OpenVMS" for a logo, at least that way it wouldn'tl: have to change no matter what happened with the "merger."   @ Of course, a phoenix wouldn't be too bad either... You know, the< beautiful bird born from the reborn from it's own ashes.....  $ VMS .... reborn.... Not bad..... ;-)     -- rG My opinions are mine and mine alone. They seldom align with those of myi	 employer.e    H The only good thing about putting the cart before the horse is you don't have to look at the horse's butt.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:21:54 +0100 (MET)i9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a> Subject: Re: DCL Minute of the St Valentine's Day: DCL_ANALYST; Message-ID: <01KEB55SEHEM8ZKA1M@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>    > $!+  > $! DCL_ANALYST.COM > $!L > $! Builds statistics on OPEN, CLOSE, READ etc and variable assignments andQ > $! substitution. Also does simple checking on unclosed single or double quotes.r > $!  O > $! Due to the complexity of this processing, your feedback is VERY welcome toaN > $! mailto:Didier.Morandi@Free.fr or within the comp.os.vms forum. Thank you.  ( Thanks for the interesting contribution.  ) I've just done some really quick testing.A  + Is it reporting an error when it shouldn't?u   $ type test.comR $       NEWMAIL_TIME = g9 "''F$FAO("!2(XL)",F$CVUI(32,32,LINE),F$CVUI(0,32,LINE))'"s $ set verify $ @test ) $       NEWMAIL_TIME = "6A666F6965776A66"  $ set noverify6 $ pipe @ DCL_ANALYST.COM test.com |sea sys$input error7 *** ERROR line 1 - Unclosed substitution within string.o $e  A By the way, the one-line TEST.COM is extracted from the freeware n WATCH_MAIL.COM.t   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:27:48 +0100 (MET)o9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>r> Subject: Re: DCL Minute of the St Valentine's Day: DCL_ANALYST; Message-ID: <01KEB5HOTV8K8ZKA1M@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>u  G More feedback: just tried it on a real 32562-line file (which seems to r work as designed) and got   C %DCL-W-SYMOVF, no room for symbol definitions - delete some symbols   0 So perhaps there is some limit on the file size?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:51:50 +0100 = From: Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@contrastmediagroep.nl>e> Subject: Re: DCL Minute of the St Valentine's Day: DCL_ANALYST5 Message-ID: <3C6D2E96.5F9CC63D@contrastmediagroep.nl>u   Phillip Helbig wrote:w > H > More feedback: just tried it on a real 32562-line file (which seems to > work as designed) and got  > E > %DCL-W-SYMOVF, no room for symbol definitions - delete some symbolsc > 2 > So perhaps there is some limit on the file size?  1 You might try raising sysgen parameter CLISYMTBL.V   Regards,   Oswald   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:25:09 +0100S& From: "tim" <t_stekkinger@hotmail.com> Subject: DCL procedure's4 Message-ID: <qW7b8.49873$W05.116109@zonnet-reader-1>   Hello,  - i am looking for some usefull DCL-procedure's # maybe you wanna share some programso  
 many thanx   timn   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:21:17 -0500m* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: DCL procedure's- Message-ID: <0033000053261949000002L092*@MHS>e  7 =0AThere's a book called "Writing Real Programs in DCL"t" written by some guy named Hoffman.  ) I strongly recommend that you get a copy..   WWWebb     -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETe' Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 9:11 AMlB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: DCL procedure's     Hello,  - i am looking for some usefull DCL-procedure'sD# maybe you wanna share some programs@  
 many thanx   tim=   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:48:01 -0500 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>* Subject: Re: DCL procedure's2 Message-ID: <3C6D2DB1.17F6CDFC@firstdbasource.com>  > Look in sys$examples... you can learn a lot about writing DCL.  
 tim wrote: >  > Hello, > / > i am looking for some usefull DCL-procedure'sr% > maybe you wanna share some programse >  > many thanx >  > timt   --   Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163d7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.comi Sr. Consultant   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:03:31 +0000 (UTC)o- From: "Ake Liss" <ake.liss@avestapolarit.com>- Subject: Re: DCL questionsH Message-ID: <c2dc4c7cb0bf10473669e280bc2eab07.20077@mygate.mailgate.org>  C Depending on ones definition of "weeknumber" this job can be quite e
 difficult.B In Sweden (Europe?) the definition of weeknumber is the following: + Each week starts with MondayE + Weeknumber 1 is the first week of the (new) year containing four oro more days.   " This gives some problems to solve:G Jan 1, Jan 2 and Jan 3 might belong to the last week of former year. If F that weeknumber is 52 or 53 must be determined by start counting from * the begining of THAT, the previous, year. : Hint: Use Jan 4 from the previous year as starting point,  it always belongs to week nr 1.C  G The same thing applies for Dec 29, Dec 30 and Dec 31 which might belonge@ to weeknumber 1 of "next" year. This is of course much easier to
 calculate.   Best regards	 -ke Lissu BlueMaster Data   G Ps. I have (a rather lenghly) com-file for this. Let me know if you aren interested.ds.       -- d8 Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:59:03 +0100g! From: "ScuBart" <bart@scubart.nl>e Subject: Re: DCL questions4 Message-ID: <sB7b8.73413$0o2.4855868@zwoll1.home.nl>  
 Axel, Michaell- Thanks very much, i'll try both the examples!    ScuBartl http://www.scubart.nli  6 "Parlow, Axel" <parlow@fiz-chemie.de> wrote in message> news:459e7ff4d0692c375dfa7dfc2bf420583c6ccd9f@fiz-chemie.de... Here is another one: $ verify=f$verify(0) $! $! WEEKNUMBER.COMi# $! weeknumber calculation from date  $! $! P1 = date (empty = today)5 $! output: weeknumber in symbol WN, always two digitst $! $       date = p1n, $       IF date .EQS. "" THEN date = "Today"% $       day  = F$CVTIME (date,,"DAY")i" $       IF .NOT. $status THEN exit $!' $       month= F$CVTIME (date,,"MONTH")e& $       year = F$CVTIME (date,,"YEAR") $       IF month .LE. 2. $       THEN# $           yday = 31 * (month - 1)F $       ELSEG $           yday = (306 * month - 324) / 10 + ((year-1)-(year-1)/4*4)/3i> $     if year/100*100 .eq. year .and. year/400*400 .ne. year - then yday=yday-1
 $       ENDIFk $ day = day + yday $!I $       weekday = F$EXTRACT (0, 2, F$CVTIME ("1-JAN-''year'",,"WEEKDAY"))eK $       offset  = (F$LOCATE (weekday, "FrSaSuMoTuWeTh")/2) + 3  ! from 3 to  9uJ $       week    = (day + offset) / 7                           ! from 0 to 52 $ if week.eq.0 $ then, $! weeknumber from last year: same as 31-dec
 $ fy = year-1g* $ @'f$environment("procedure") 31-dec-'fy' $ exit $ endif) $ ddum = offset + yday? $ if week.eq.53 .and. ddum.ge.339 .and. ddum.le.342 then week=1  $! $ wn == f$fao("!2ZW",week)0 $ if f$mode() .eqs. "INTERACTIVE" then sh sym wn $! $ if verify then $ set verifym   >i0 >Is there a better Ng to post any DCL questions?E >Would like to know if it is possible to generate the weeknumber witho	 >f$cvtime-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:31:30 +0000r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>4 Subject: Gordon Bell siten8 Message-ID: <koqp6uclolvv3jevp4ok52sb4j96dofiav@4ax.com>  F Just saw a reference to this site in comp.arch and hadn't known it was= there. Check out http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell and, inFF particular, http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/DECMuseum.htm@ which is the DEC cyberspace Museum. The history of Digital CD is	 online atiD http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/timeline/dechistory.htm       -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:36:22 GMTi# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>c Subject: Re: Gordon Bell siteh+ Message-ID: <G19b8.83$oO.34@news1.bloor.is>u  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:koqp6uclolvv3jevp4ok52sb4j96dofiav@4ax.com...H > Just saw a reference to this site in comp.arch and hadn't known it was > there.D http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/timeline/dechistory.htm >a  F Interesting to reflect on the comparative values of the equipment eachF company sold, and the relative amount of research that each undertook.  A Reminds me a lot of the book written by Harvard's Michael Porter,s 'Competitive Strategy'.   J Comapq pursued the 'low-value high volume' model, whereas Digital followed" the 'low-volume high value model'.  K The only problem with the low-volume high-value model is that when you losew/ a customer, it's hard to replace that customer.c  G Compaq is more closely aligned with manufacturers of chewing gum...sell G something for a cent to millions of people and it doesn't matter if youfH alienate and lose a few customers along the way...no real R&D costs, andJ hundreds of thousands of new potential customers world-wide are being bornH every day. Compare that to the gestation time of a company that's apt to> require real computing, or at least be prepared to pay for it.  E Call it the dumbing down of hardware.  ....Or one might call it smart H management on Compaq's part at the time. But I honestly don't think thatH Canion, et al. had much more on their minds than to sell more PC clones.   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 06:46:09 -0800 From: aek@spies.com (Al Kossow)e Subject: Re: Gordon Bell site0$ Message-ID: <a4j6vh$c5k$1@spies.com>  O From article <G19b8.83$oO.34@news1.bloor.is>, by "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>:5 >  > ' > Call it the dumbing down of hardware.   K Eric Smith calls it "the trumph of crapitalism" which also brings about thedK problem where it is impossible to buy quality stuff any more because no oneo was willing to pay for it.   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2002 15:49:15 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Gordon Bell site!, Message-ID: <a4jalr$1g8e$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  $ In article <a4j6vh$c5k$1@spies.com>,"  aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) writes:R |> From article <G19b8.83$oO.34@news1.bloor.is>, by "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>: |> > o |> > 2* |> > Call it the dumbing down of hardware. |> fN |> Eric Smith calls it "the trumph of crapitalism" which also brings about theN |> problem where it is impossible to buy quality stuff any more because no one |> was willing to pay for it.E  D Which, of course, isn't true.  I still get the periodic catalog withE $5000 386's.  Quality is still available to those who need it and are I willing to pay for it.  Just like you can still buy PDP-11's commericallyeE if you have the need and the $$$.  Now, if you were expecting to find"F DEC quality at Radio Shack for Woolworths prices, that's quite another story.   bill   -- dJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:57:17 GMT-# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>1 Subject: Re: Gordon Bell sitem, Message-ID: <xdab8.107$oO.44@news1.bloor.is>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a4j8kp$jkt$3@bob.news.rcn.net...? > Nope.  That's not the underlying problem.  The problem is they> > assumption that a business is failing if it isn't growing at? > x%.  You can't get seed money or capital outlay if you're not > > deemed as a "successful" business.  It's a virus that nobody
 > recognizes.c >t  K It's called a 'subsistence' business....hand-to-mouth corner store variety.:  E To bad Compaq and HP shareholders don't have the full facts about the I different sides of their respective businesses...about which one is trulyaF the subsistence business and which one has substantive returns....ThenJ again, management of both companies would probably hire Arthur Andersen to
 'explain' it.o   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 15 Feb 02 12:57:52 GMTh From: jmfbahciv@aol.coma Subject: Re: Gordon Bell siten+ Message-ID: <a4j8fu$jkt$2@bob.news.rcn.net>   + In article <G19b8.83$oO.34@news1.bloor.is>, '    "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:d > 3 >"Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in messageP3 >news:koqp6uclolvv3jevp4ok52sb4j96dofiav@4ax.com...,I >> Just saw a reference to this site in comp.arch and hadn't known it was 	 >> there.sE >http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/timeline/dechistory.htm: >> >0G >Interesting to reflect on the comparative values of the equipment eachjG >company sold, and the relative amount of research that each undertook.2 >4B >Reminds me a lot of the book written by Harvard's Michael Porter, >'Competitive Strategy'. >.K >Comapq pursued the 'low-value high volume' model, whereas Digital followedt# >the 'low-volume high value model'.e >tH >The only problem with the low-volume high-value model is that when you  lose0 >a customer, it's hard to replace that customer. >aH >Compaq is more closely aligned with manufacturers of chewing gum...sellH >something for a cent to millions of people and it doesn't matter if youI >alienate and lose a few customers along the way...no real R&D costs, andRK >hundreds of thousands of new potential customers world-wide are being borniI >every day. Compare that to the gestation time of a company that's apt to-? >require real computing, or at least be prepared to pay for it.g >aF >Call it the dumbing down of hardware.  ....Or one might call it smartI >management on Compaq's part at the time. But I honestly don't think thatUI >Canion, et al. had much more on their minds than to sell more PC clones.   A The point I keep trying to make is that this short-range businessP? approach is deterimental to the overall business and use of theP< computer as a tool in other areas.  When users have to spend2 their time bitching about the tool, it is useless.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.p   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 15 Feb 02 13:00:28 GMTs From: jmfbahciv@aol.comp Subject: Re: Gordon Bell siteg+ Message-ID: <a4j8kp$jkt$3@bob.news.rcn.net>   E In article <a4j6vh$c5k$1@spies.com>, aek@spies.com (Al Kossow) wrote:r? >From article <G19b8.83$oO.34@news1.bloor.is>, by "John Smith"   <a@nonymous.com>:e >> , >> i( >> Call it the dumbing down of hardware. >hI >Eric Smith calls it "the trumph of crapitalism" which also brings about a theaI >problem where it is impossible to buy quality stuff any more because no g onei >was willing to pay for it.t  = Nope.  That's not the underlying problem.  The problem is theh< assumption that a business is failing if it isn't growing at= x%.  You can't get seed money or capital outlay if you're note< deemed as a "successful" business.  It's a virus that nobody recognizes.c   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:50:30 -0500 0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> Subject: Re: Gordon Bell sites3 Message-ID: <sLcb8.5238$EI.28292@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   0 now how did this end up on a microsoft web site? --   SyltremwI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)E> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  B "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> a crit dans le message de news:- koqp6uclolvv3jevp4ok52sb4j96dofiav@4ax.com...p >iH > Just saw a reference to this site in comp.arch and hadn't known it was? > there. Check out http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell and, in H > particular, http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/DECMuseum.htmB > which is the DEC cyberspace Museum. The history of Digital CD is > online at F > http://research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Digital/timeline/dechistory.htm >m >a >  > -- > Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:56:06 -0500B- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>c Subject: Re: Gordon Bell sites, Message-ID: <3C6D59BA.197A983D@videotron.ca>   Syltrem wrote: > 2 > now how did this end up on a microsoft web site?  D Microsoft is in charge of rewriting history for its Encarta product.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:57:05 GMT.* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>H Subject: Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?A Message-ID: <RX4b8.45877$eS3.3317925@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>t  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:bB9ElE9ybXeM@eisner.encompasserve.org...aI > In article <6pXa8.34441$d34.2243227@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill & Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:   ...h  ( > > The real problem is that Intel can'tK > > produce a 2-ton Itanic for the same price its competitors produce theirgJ > > 1-ton chips that equal or out-perform it - let alone start to pay back theT( > > far higher Itanic development costs. > >S >R > They don't have to.s  G They don't have to - what?  Make a competitive product at a competitivelL price?  When did the laws of economics get repealed?  Even if you ignore theG issue of recouping already-sunk development costs, the fact that ItaniciF requires twice the chip area (and power) of its competition to deliverH sub-par performance is a problem that is not going to go away until EPICB does (which ain't going to be any time soon, given that the next 2G generations use it and the one after that isn't even well-defined yet).e  '   IA32s in the millions and IA64 in the"A > hundred thousands.  The initial startup costs for IA64 won't beo  > recouped for a very long time.   Try 'ever'.e     Today, they do much smallere) > volumes of Xeon/Foster than they do P4.t  H So what?  Xeon/Foster leveraged decades of IA32 development:  they don't& have to repay $billions by themselves.     The margins on IA64 will> > be much higher than IA32 but I am sure they are making money > today,  J Then you're abjectly ignorant:  at the volumes they're selling today, theyJ can't even pay the janitorial staff that's keeping the fab clean.  PerhapsL if/when they start selling hundreds of thousands of units (though at currentG prices the lack of performance will make this rather difficult), *then* K they'll start breaking even at the margin (not become profitable, mind you,:1 nor begin paying back the development $billions).s   ...s  @ > The way I see it working is what we see today.  That Dell IA64A > server we keep coming back to is quite a bit cheaper than most.u  G That Dell IA64 server you keep coming back to isn't available any more:5K Dell decided that Itanic did not generate, and had no immediate prospect ofV3 generating, sufficient volume to be worth carrying.l   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:23:16 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>H Subject: Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?A Message-ID: <ok5b8.41278$d34.2822387@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>e  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:sn2dmxzX4XO$@eisner.encompasserve.org...-9 > In article <3C6C2BC1.60402@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froblet <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:-   ...-  J > > I have to say that I respect many of Rob's views.  However, he appearsG > > to be applying 'blind faith' to IA-64.  I really don't see anybody,4I > > other than Compaq, bowing to the inevitable conquest of all by Intel.L > >r >eF > Actually, not blind faith.  There are some key technologies in Intel% > process and Alpha that will be key.-  K Really?  Care to share them with us so we can examine them rather than just1H accept your faith?  AFAICT, no significant Alpha technology will come toI Itanic's rescue before about 2005 (2006 if you're talking about wholesalesF replacement of EPIC).  And what decisive Intel process technology willK arrive before that time-frame that competitors won't have access to (surely0) you're not under an Intel NDA, are you?)?s   >oI > > Intel has decreed, "resistance is futile".  IBM, AMD, and others haver > > replied, "Yeah, Right!"y >x% > AMD isn't even on the radar screen.t  K Then your screen is dead.  The market sure as hell sees it, and that's whatr counts.r     As Paul Jacobi points to; > this article, here is a summary of where the billions go:   E It's easy for an individual to get snowed by the magnitude of a largeeJ corporation's efforts.  But the proof of their effectiveness is, again, inJ the market - and AMD's doing just fine competing, thank you (though havingL the normal difficulties making a profit at it that anyone does who attacks a near-monopoly).6   ...2  > > Yes, really tight creative design groups can do a whole lot.  9 Too bad Intel hasn't had any working on Itanic until now.    >p= > Take that same tight group of 200 Alpha engineers and throw > > a few billion in supporting infrastructure research and IA64. > will perform well.  It is a given, isn't it?  K If Intel is both able and willing to pour another $billion+ down the Itanic L drain with absolutely no return, then yes, in about 4 years they can developJ a product that they can really go out and compete with (as long as they'reL willing to price it competitively, which means it will take at least anotherH several years to make back the money they spent on earlier development).D The main question is whether this is the best use of their money andL resources:  for example, at far lower cost (and in far less time) they couldK either resurrect EV8 and have an equivalent (actually, a superior) platform D or bring Yamhill to market and have a much more attractive platform.  E Now, both of those options may be politically difficult.  But (unlikerH Compaq) Intel has seemed willing to make such decisions in the past when  reality stared them in the face.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:56:54 +0100 / From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>fM Subject: re:  Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?i6 Message-ID: <00A099A8.B4EA922C.8@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>   > @ > 	Me?  Track a few threads.  I most *always* attempt to provideG > 	supporting evidence.  Most run around with opinion.  When challengedo@ > 	Bill talked about a growth in AMD share, to 30%.  I certainly@ > 	didn't challenge him on that but quickly pointed out that theD > 	numbers may be there but certainly aren't reflected in financialsF > 	(i.e. AMD $3.6 billion in revs, single digit loss on profit, single# > 	digit loss on operating margin).h > E > 	So does it sound stupid?  I guess since Bill didn't call me stupid1< > 	on that one, not really.  Little sore or what?  Sheesh... > 	 > 				Robe   Rob,  J Have you broken out the financials for Intel's processor revenues comparedE to it's many other products? (That's assuming that Intel publish the  L information that would allow you to do so; we well know another company that. goes out of its way to impede such analysis).   G Otherwise, Intel's greater diversity of interests makes it a comparisone of an orange with a cherry.   K And even if you can break out Intel's x86 processor division from the rest,dL there's also the underlying cost structures to compare. My prejudices alwaysH favour a young, lean and mean company that's growing its market share atK the expense of an older and (usually) fatter competitor. Time will tell....C   	Yours,?
 		Nigel Arnoto- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   b  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."a   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 08:41:50 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)DH Subject: Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?3 Message-ID: <8vhYiY5TyD1O@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  n In article <RX4b8.45877$eS3.3317925@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >    >   The margins on IA64 will? >> be much higher than IA32 but I am sure they are making moneyr	 >> today,r > L > Then you're abjectly ignorant:  at the volumes they're selling today, theyL > can't even pay the janitorial staff that's keeping the fab clean.  PerhapsN > if/when they start selling hundreds of thousands of units (though at currentI > prices the lack of performance will make this rather difficult), *then*kM > they'll start breaking even at the margin (not become profitable, mind you,t3 > nor begin paying back the development $billions).p >   : 	The cost of manufacturing for Itanium is estimated in theG 	$300 ballpark (without numbers, I believe it is in that neighborhood).a  4 	They are making money on everyone they are selling.   > ...n > A >> The way I see it working is what we see today.  That Dell IA64oB >> server we keep coming back to is quite a bit cheaper than most. > I > That Dell IA64 server you keep coming back to isn't available any more: M > Dell decided that Itanic did not generate, and had no immediate prospect of 5 > generating, sufficient volume to be worth carrying.p >   - 	You are confusing workstations with servers:i  > http://rcommerce.us.dell.com/rcomm/cat_mini.asp?brand_id=PEDGE   Processor   Price   )   Intel Itanium Processor, 733-800 MHz    <  with Windows Advanced Server, Limited Edition  $14,996.70    )   Intel Itanium Processor, 733-800 MHz   v   with RedHat Linux  $16,737.70     Additional processors ~$3800  U http://rcommerce.us.dell.com/rcomm/config.asp?order_code=H1054W&conum=70&ConfigType=3n   PowerEdge 7150    Specifications     i
 TECH SPECS  e6  Up to 4 Intel Itanium Processors at 733MHz and 800MHz  n  1GB to 64GB ECC SDRAM memory   e 292GB maximum internal storage  C 				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 08:45:54 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young):M Subject: re:  Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?.3 Message-ID: <CiMg6GiqVcnJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  h In article <00A099A8.B4EA922C.8@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>, Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk> writes: >>  A >> 	Me?  Track a few threads.  I most *always* attempt to providetH >> 	supporting evidence.  Most run around with opinion.  When challengedA >> 	Bill talked about a growth in AMD share, to 30%.  I certainlytA >> 	didn't challenge him on that but quickly pointed out that thetE >> 	numbers may be there but certainly aren't reflected in financialscG >> 	(i.e. AMD $3.6 billion in revs, single digit loss on profit, single9$ >> 	digit loss on operating margin). >> "F >> 	So does it sound stupid?  I guess since Bill didn't call me stupid= >> 	on that one, not really.  Little sore or what?  Sheesh..." >> h
 >> 				Rob >  > Rob, > L > Have you broken out the financials for Intel's processor revenues comparedG > to it's many other products? (That's assuming that Intel publish the tN > information that would allow you to do so; we well know another company that0 > goes out of its way to impede such analysis).  > I > Otherwise, Intel's greater diversity of interests makes it a comparison  > of an orange with a cherry.f > M > And even if you can break out Intel's x86 processor division from the rest,.N > there's also the underlying cost structures to compare. My prejudices alwaysJ > favour a young, lean and mean company that's growing its market share atM > the expense of an older and (usually) fatter competitor. Time will tell....  >   ? 	I haven't.  We do know they are in memories and other segments1B 	(chipsets).  To clarify.... I would guess IA32 *related* revenues@ 	are 90%, leaving $3 billion to other segments, maybe it is 70%. 	Whatever it is , it is large.   				Roba   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:59:15 GMTi# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>sH Subject: Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?, Message-ID: <nfab8.109$oO.45@news1.bloor.is>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:8vhYiY5TyD1O@eisner.encompasserve.org...s >i; > The cost of manufacturing for Itanium is estimated in theoH > $300 ballpark (without numbers, I believe it is in that neighborhood). >n5 > They are making money on everyone they are selling.e >   K Are you talking fully amortized cost, or incremental cost of manufacturing?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:42:11 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>-H Subject: Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?8 Message-ID: <fraq6ug5p2k30v3e7tjro2dej652ur8jb2@4ax.com>  D On 15 Feb 2002 08:41:50 -0600, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:    ; >	The cost of manufacturing for Itanium is estimated in theeH >	$300 ballpark (without numbers, I believe it is in that neighborhood). >>5 >	They are making money on everyone they are selling.n  B Admit it Rob, you're just reposting your "Why Alpha makes loads ofB money is profitable and won't be dropped" posts from two years ago$ substituting "Alpha" with "Itanium".     -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 08:30:56 -0800* From: jose.arroyo@pandora.be (Jose Arroyo)H Subject: Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?< Message-ID: <dc4879f.0202150830.45263cb0@posting.google.com>  m bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0202132026.4857ccd9@posting.google.com>... J > I have been trying to get Compaq to answer this question, along w/HP ...J > Capellas, Marcellas have been quiet, as has Carly ... how irresponsible!G > They don't even respond to a serious question posed about where theireK > best os customer base goes if itanic dies ... do they restart alpha? doesnN > intel just develop alpha and forget itanic (this would make the most sense)?G > We need answers to plan for the future Compaq!  Were is Sue or Terry?t+ > No one is providing info or answers here!   E I think a company should give some explanation toward issues that aretD living among their clients. In not doing so, what can happen is that: some clients might loose confident in their manufacturers.  B How would you feel if, for example, the political party or anotherF kind of group you belong to, does not keep you informed? Or, how would> you feel if you sensed that your questions and concerns remain unanswered?d; Would you be so willing to give them 'your vote' next time?   E I am aware that some things kept 'secret', however too much closeness-0 may have a more negative effect in the long run.  @ I do not like to bet, yet if I had to, I would bet at least on 2/ sides, for if I would bet all and loose ... :-)c  > Personally I would continue the Alpha processor alongside withA Itanic-processors and made a more final decision once the clients>' decide which platform they prefer most.w  D In 'imposing' a specific platform at best you may gain more clients,A but then again you may also loose a lot that might step over to ayC totally different operating system. For Intel this may not be a bigt issue, yet for Compaq ...   D The question I pose to Compaq is in fact "why stop the production ofE the Alpha processor", the only one that remains after VAX was stoppedl some years ago now?e, Are there problems with it? Not performing? F I have seen reports where this processor (Alpha) is ranked at the top.= Its useful to perform changes when something does not performeA sufficient, but I am afraid it seems as it is the other way roundt here...j' Sorry, but this I do not understand... s  B Could Compaq shine some light on this? Your clients are asking it.   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 10:39:21 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)oH Subject: Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?3 Message-ID: <Ag3N+e8CV9H1@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  R In article <nfab8.109$oO.45@news1.bloor.is>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:8vhYiY5TyD1O@eisner.encompasserve.org...a >>< >> The cost of manufacturing for Itanium is estimated in theI >> $300 ballpark (without numbers, I believe it is in that neighborhood).n >>6 >> They are making money on everyone they are selling. >> > M > Are you talking fully amortized cost, or incremental cost of manufacturing?e >  >   C 	Probably both... but as we know from reading MicroProcessor Reporta? 	(aka Intel Processor Support) www.mdronline.com, these numbersDE 	are some of the most closely guarded secrets CPU manufacturers have,cB 	so I am hiding in not really knowing.  But speculating is fun and 	this is Usenet after all!  @ 	But if you really want to get better estimates and have a spareD  	$2000 laying around, you can buy Linley "Merced" Gwennap's report:  ? http://www.mdronline.com/publications/tl/intel_2h2000/toc2.html4   Intel Microprocessor Forecasti Second Half 2000 Edition       7  Manufacturing Cost    Cost Estimates e   The Cost Model n Processor Parameters a Cache Chips  CPU Packaging 
 Yield Issues n Chip Cost Estimates 
 Module Costs   Module Cost Estimates    Cost Trends    Average Manufacturing Cost t Average Cost by Generation - Average Cost by Segment  Impact of On-Die L2 Cache  Capacity Effects h Competitors' Costs -   [snip]   Single-copy price: $1995 USD h, $1895 for Microprocessor Report subscribers   : 	Dated material, but maybe you can extrapolate from there!   				Robm   ------------------------------    Date: 16 Feb 2002 00:34:42 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>H Subject: Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?0 Message-ID: <87n0ya7lgd.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  * David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:   > JF Mezei wrote:i  t > > Rob Young wrote:  D > >>        With too much and too many customers banking on IPF , weF > >>        will see creative techniques to mask weaknesses and accent > >>        strengths.  F > > So far, isn't HP the only one to have bet the farm on IA64 ?  HaveF > > any other companies prematurely terminated products such as Alpha,B > > Tru64 and MPE in anticipation for a potential performance of a) > > bloated chip sometime in the future ?f  E You mean SGI? The shut down their CPU design group totally, and layed C everyone off. (HP did almost the same, but where a bit slower) TheytF have now re-build the whole lot, and are back ing the CPU biz. HP haveD not only done unwanted speed-ups of the HP-PA 32, but been forced toC design and ship the HP-PA 64 chips rather than the Smoking BRick ofg Death.    @ > I have to say that I respect many of Rob's views.  However, heD > appears to be applying 'blind faith' to IA-64.  I really don't seeF > anybody, other than Compaq, bowing to the inevitable conquest of all > by Intel.e  mG You almost wonder if Rob has had a change of name or something? Is thisa Andrew with a new employer? ;)   -- m< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 10:42:55 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)eH Subject: Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?3 Message-ID: <l3hM$1Uv8Hkl@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  9 	Little too quick, the 2001 edition is available for onlye@ 	$1995.  And if you call in the next 20 minutes you also receive% 	a free report on UltraSparc futures!r  4 http://www.mdronline.com/publications/tl/intel_2001/   				Robe  a In article <Ag3N+e8CV9H1@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes: T > In article <nfab8.109$oO.45@news1.bloor.is>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >> l; >> "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in messagel0 >> news:8vhYiY5TyD1O@eisner.encompasserve.org... >>>r= >>> The cost of manufacturing for Itanium is estimated in the1J >>> $300 ballpark (without numbers, I believe it is in that neighborhood). >>>c7 >>> They are making money on everyone they are selling.  >>>s >>  N >> Are you talking fully amortized cost, or incremental cost of manufacturing? >>   >> t > E > 	Probably both... but as we know from reading MicroProcessor ReportaA > 	(aka Intel Processor Support) www.mdronline.com, these numbersiG > 	are some of the most closely guarded secrets CPU manufacturers have, D > 	so I am hiding in not really knowing.  But speculating is fun and > 	this is Usenet after all! > B > 	But if you really want to get better estimates and have a spareF >  	$2000 laying around, you can buy Linley "Merced" Gwennap's report: > A > http://www.mdronline.com/publications/tl/intel_2h2000/toc2.htmlt >  > Intel Microprocessor Forecaste > Second Half 2000 Edition - >  >  > 7  Manufacturing Cost  >  > Cost Estimates a >  > The Cost Model u > Processor Parameters i > Cache Chips  > CPU Packaging  > Yield Issues   > Chip Cost Estimates  > Module Costs s > Module Cost Estimates  >  > Cost Trends  >  > Average Manufacturing Cost u > Average Cost by Generation a > Average Cost by Segment  > Impact of On-Die L2 Cache  > Capacity Effects   > Competitors' Costs   >  > [snip] >  > Single-copy price: $1995 USD t. > $1895 for Microprocessor Report subscribers  > < > 	Dated material, but maybe you can extrapolate from there! > 	 > 				Robi >    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 10:44:53 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)oH Subject: Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?3 Message-ID: <Lz4TVNOwCn2E@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  ` In article <fraq6ug5p2k30v3e7tjro2dej652ur8jb2@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:F > On 15 Feb 2002 08:41:50 -0600, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) > wrote: >  > < >>	The cost of manufacturing for Itanium is estimated in theI >>	$300 ballpark (without numbers, I believe it is in that neighborhood).o >>6 >>	They are making money on everyone they are selling. > D > Admit it Rob, you're just reposting your "Why Alpha makes loads ofD > money is profitable and won't be dropped" posts from two years ago& > substituting "Alpha" with "Itanium". >   > 	No... you are mixing up VMS.  My main arguments for Alpha ranB 	along performance lines, higher performance making it attractive.C 	But yeah, I probably am guilty of sticking a money making angle inr 	there.    					Rob   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 10:53:57 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) H Subject: Re: Hello Compaq!  What happens to us VMS users if Itanic dies?3 Message-ID: <RhCnvIinFtjx@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  _ In article <87n0ya7lgd.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:,   > A >> I have to say that I respect many of Rob's views.  However, hehE >> appears to be applying 'blind faith' to IA-64.  I really don't seeuG >> anybody, other than Compaq, bowing to the inevitable conquest of all  >> by Intel. >   I > You almost wonder if Rob has had a change of name or something? Is this   > Andrew with a new employer? ;) >    	Nah.. too positive on VMS.   A 	I understand the Alpha business decisions.  I don't like it, butpC 	I understand it.  I also believe the timing was/is bad.  It should,D 	have been done earlier OR smoother.  The knifing of EV8 stinks too.G 	Those PA-RISC CPUs look like shrinks from here on out, much like EV79 s  	so there are some similarities.  G 	Given the decision, I'm looking at positives on IA64.  Major positivesaB 	are they inherited Alpha architects and technology, another majorA 	positive is Intel technologies... it may take 3-4 years for IA64iB 	to take off and Bill has very legitimate points... Intel may loseF 	another billion (or two or three) before it takes off but with growthB 	in CPUs over the next 3-4 years for everyone Intel should be very1 	healthy regardless of how much they "throwaway."u  D 	The best major positive - from my perspective - is cheaper hardwareD 	and hardware that can't be marginalized as it is Industry Standard.   					Rob   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:46:19 -0500c  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.comY Subject: Hewlett-Packard's CEO Carly Fiorina is sounding pretty persuasive         these d4 Message-ID: <C2256B61.005BB60D.00@jklh21.valmet.com>    From CNN/MoneygP                                                                                 P                                                                                 P                                                                                 P                                                                                 P                                                                                 P  Carly's wayFebruary 14, 2002: 4:27 p.m. ET                                     P                                                                                 P  Hewlett-Packard's CEO Carly Fiorina is sounding pretty persuasive these days.  P  But the proposed HP-Compaq merger is still a bad idea.                         P  By David Futrelle                                                              P  NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - When did everyone start listening to Carly Fiorina      P  again?                                                                         P                                                                                 P  Not that long ago, HP's controversial CEO was generally regarded as damaged    P  goods -- an aloof outsider fundamentally out of touch with the egalitarian "HP P  Way," flying about the country by corporate jet even as she sent thousands of  P  loyal employees packing.                                                       P                                                                                 P  Her plan to merge HP (HWP: down $0.10 to $20.88, Research, Estimates) and      P  Compaq (CPQ: unchanged at $11.40, Research, Estimates) was derided by many as  P  "Fiorina's Folly," and many were sure she would soon follow the workers she'd  P  fired into the ranks of the jobless.                                           P                                                                                 P  Now, all of a sudden, she's looking and sounding a lot like the smooth,        P  charismatic Carly of yore -- the one who garnered so many flattering magazine  P  cover stories back when she first took over at HP in July 1999.                P                                                                                 P  It's doesn't exactly hurt that she just delivered first-quarter profits that   P  easily beat an already-raised Wall Street consensus (see more). "These results P  show we know our business better than anyone else," she said in a company      P  conference call -- a none-too-subtle jab at HP board member Walter B. Hewlett, P  a son of company co-founder Bill Hewlett and a none-too-subtle opponent of the P  proposed merger. (Hewlett, for his part, says the surprisingly good results    P  only bolster his argument that HP can survive and even thrive on its own.)     P                                                                                 P  Fiorina was on a roll even before the quarterly results were in. In recent     P  weeks, she's pounded home her argument for the merger in speeches and          P  full-page newspaper ads. You can find all the details of her argument at       P  www.votethehpway.com.                                                          P                                                                                 P  But in a nutshell, she argues that only together will HP and Compaq be able to P  produce PCs efficiently enough to compete against Dell and to take the top     P  spots in the storage and server markets. That only together will HP and Compaq P  be able to take on IBM in IT services. And that only with Compaq will HP be    P  able to survive as more than just a glorified printer maker.                   P                                                                                 P  In contrast to this plan, she argues, Hewlett and the other merger opponents   P  have offered nothing but "platitudes." As she put it at the recent Goldman     P  Sachs Technology conference, "to simply say "no" without offering an           P  alternative plan is to ask the people of HP to give up their vision, to put    P  their ambitions aside and to settle for less than this company is capable of   P  achieving."                                                                    P                                                                                 P  She's made the case so persuasively she's almost convinced me she's right.     P                                                                                 P  But in the end I can't come around to Carly's way -- for two simple reasons.   P  First, as Hewlett never tires of saying, no large scale tech merger has ever   P  come off as planned -- including Compaq's own merger with Digital Equipment    P  Corporation in 1998. And second, PC making is, as even Compaq CEO Michael      P  Capellas admits, a "lousy business" -- one that HP would do better to walk     P  away from, not invest more heavily in. (For more details, see Walter B.        P  Hewlett's Web site.)                                                           P                                                                                 P  Unfortunately, Hewlett, while an effective critic, hasn't been terribly        P  successful in articulating a clear and compelling plan of his own -- Carly's   P  right about that. Insofar as he has articulated one, it's this: HP should      P  build on its strength in the printer business and more or less cut and run in  P  PCs. This may be a more practical alternative than Fiorina's risky plan, but   P  it's hardly an inspiring one.                                                  P                                                                                 P  HP shareholders are in a tough spot. Were I in their shoes, I would probably   P  vote 'no' to the merger -- but not with much conviction.                       P                                                                                 P  Investors, though, have another choice: they can vote "Sell" -- and look       P  elsewhere for places to put their money.                                       P                                                                                 P                                                                                    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:07:25 +0000o, From: Mark Redding <grawlfang@ukhackers.net>0 Subject: How to become a Hobbyist (the hard way)- Message-ID: <3C6CEBED.10E51AE3@ukhackers.net>h  H I've recently installed Hobbyist VMS 7.2 onto my VAXstation 4000 VLC ...   http://www.aragorn.org.uk/vax/  C ...Is my diary of events in the hope that it may be of use to othert struggling Hobbyists.    Mark.    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:50:53 +0000 (UTC)r* From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.cc.jyu.fi>, Subject: Re: How to upgrade Miata (PWS 433a), Message-ID: <a4ib4d$os8$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>  B Craig A. Berry <craig.berry@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com> wrote:  ) > $ search sys$system:sys$config.dat scsir  E Thanx Graig! How could I forget. The best source of information is insG front of me all the time (My "PC", Alphastation 500, but only VMS 7.1).h  I > I've gotten a no-name Qlogic card with the ISP1020 chip to work ok in a I > 500au. I did not have any luck with the ISP1040A. I'm told the ISP1040B , > is identical to the KZPBA and does work...  G ISP1020 is in the sys$config.dat but no 1040 nor KZPBA. Is it that they H are somehow grouped together under ISP1020 name? Sys$config.dat is short< of many DEC part names. Where could I find the rest of them?    J I've got no answers to the other questions. Someone MUST have something to say of them:  A 1) Can I replace the processor with higher frequency one and onlyg&    set the frequency dips accordingly?E    (Does EK-ALMIA-UP describe the upgrade? Anybody seen that manual?)n  B 2) There's no L3 cache now. They are expensive. Is there commodity    model that can be used?  D 3) I've read that early PWS models (MX5) had bug in Pyxis. It's saidE    that models without USB connectors probably have the bug. Is therel?    any better way to identify buggy Pyxis? >>> show config saysn0    Pyxis Asic Pass 257 . Would it be new enough?  7 5) I've heard that max memory is 1,5 GB. Is that right?e   Osmo   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 10:33:03 -0800+ From: docarojr@yahoo.com (Doug Roberts, jr) ? Subject: Re: Job Posting - VMS Managed Service Contract Manager = Message-ID: <4b54af01.0202151033.6f792b6c@posting.google.com>,  , This position is located in Groton, CT - USA    Y Brendan Welch <brendan_welch@uml.edu> wrote in message news:<3C6BE3F3.410FA75@uml.edu>...c6 > > Information solutions that work in the real world. >  > But WHERE in the real world?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:19:42 GMTu  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>L Subject: Re: Job Posting - VMS Managed Service Contract Manager - Groton, CT8 Message-ID: <bn9q6uodq8be8kr3ko9efqn9ugrmj5c1jk@4ax.com>  D On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 18:44:48 +0000, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> wrote:   >"Doug Roberts, jr" wrote: >9G >> I should have also posted that this position is based in Groton, CT., >t >Yeah, but which country ????  >r4 >*sigh* ... yet more USofAcentrism (I'm guessing :-) >    Er... so what's you point?   ;-)l1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaql- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)n   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 23:57:45 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>8 Subject: Re: Load Balancing DNA across 2*2MBit WAN links0 Message-ID: <87r8nm7n5y.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  3 keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:n  = > Yes, I've heard at least 2 other reports at DECUS of peopletA > sucessfully booting a satellite node into a cluster over a 56Kbp > line.m  F If someone wants to go googling, some one here booted a machine over aA dial-up across a good chunk of the US. 9600 bps I think, or abouttF that.  Several muttered about seeing how slow you could go and have it
 all survive!!   L It was only a short term hack, but it did work, and it did get the job done.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:49:14 +0100 = From: Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@contrastmediagroep.nl>nA Subject: Re: Longest VMS _cluster_ uptime, was: Re: 1 Year uptimew5 Message-ID: <3C6CBD7A.C7661C9A@contrastmediagroep.nl>    "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:c > . > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_FTIME") >    Ok then, i hold the record:   , $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_FTIME") 17-NOV-1858 00:00:00.00t $a  ! But then this is not a cluster...e   Oswald   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:03:37 GMT 1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>nA Subject: Re: Longest VMS _cluster_ uptime, was: Re: 1 Year uptimee2 Message-ID: <3C6D238F.514A09A9@clarityconnect.com>  E Yep, if you don't have a cluster then CLUSTER_FTIME = 0 = 17-NOV-1858o  % This might be better for folks to use   - $ IF F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_MEMBER") .EQS. "TRUE"   $ THEN WRITE SYS$OUTPUT -cD "This cluster has been operational since ",F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_FTIME") $      WRITE SYS$OUTPUT -NB "and this system has been operational since ",F$GETSYI("BOOTTIME") $ ELSE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT -e> "This system has been operational since ",F$GETSYI("BOOTTIME") $ ENDIF      Oswald Knoppers wrote: >  > "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:e > >l0 > > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_FTIME") > >r >  > Ok then, i hold the record:  > . > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_FTIME") > 17-NOV-1858 00:00:00.00i > $t > # > But then this is not a cluster...k >  > Oswald   --  D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:45:55 -0500s* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>A Subject: RE: Longest VMS _cluster_ uptime, was: Re: 1 Year uptimes- Message-ID: <0033000053284833000002L032*@MHS>B  3 =0Ahere's a bit of DCL that you can stick into youra3 cluster LOGIN.COMs that will give you boot date andM/ time information for every node in the cluster.i  1 This doesn't require any elevated privileges, and 2 if your LOGIN.COM has an interactive-only section,, you may omit the first equivalence (f$mode).  1 I'd leave the second one (f$getsyi) in because its6 keeps it from accidentally executing from a standalone node.u  " $ if f$mode() .eqs. "BATCH" .or. -/      f$getsyi("CLUSTER_MEMBER") .eqs. "FALSE" -e      then goto NXT $  CONTEXT =3D ""u $  BGN:g $       ID =3D f$csid(CONTEXT)$ $       if ID .eqs. "" then goto NXT $       write sys$output ->         "Node ''f$getsyi("NODENAME",,id)' booted on ''f$getsyi ("BOOTTIME",,id)'" $  goto BGNr $ NXT:   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETo( Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 11:13 AMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETA Subject: RE: Longest VMS _cluster_ uptime, was: Re: 1 Year uptimet    H Yep, if you don't have a cluster then CLUSTER_FTIME =3D 0 =3D 17-NOV-18= 58  % This might be better for folks to usev  , $ IF F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_MEMBER") .EQS. "TRUE" $ THEN WRITE SYS$OUTPUT -nD "This cluster has been operational since ",F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_FTIME") $      WRITE SYS$OUTPUT - B "and this system has been operational since ",F$GETSYI("BOOTTIME") $ ELSE WRITE SYS$OUTPUT -i> "This system has been operational since ",F$GETSYI("BOOTTIME") $ ENDIFe     Oswald Knoppers wrote: >R > "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:o > >h0 > > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_FTIME") > >  >d > Ok then, i hold the record:o > . > $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT F$GETSYI("CLUSTER_FTIME") > 17-NOV-1858 00:00:00.00M > $n >g# > But then this is not a cluster...n >l > Oswald   --H Jilly     - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, N= Y @      - jilly@clarityconnect.com               - Brett Bodine fan>      - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com               - since 1975 or so1      - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -=C   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:03:52 +0100F& From: "tim" <t_stekkinger@hotmail.com>
 Subject: menud4 Message-ID: <dK6b8.49867$W05.115897@zonnet-reader-1>  " I am searching for some kind menu.$ so i can easily added some procedure and can work with it   grtz..     timy   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:38:26 -0500m* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: menu - Message-ID: <0033000053255140000002L002*@MHS>   ' =0AAre you looking for DCL or compiled,t freeware or commercial product?.   WWWebb     -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETp' Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 8:22 AMiB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET
 Subject: menuE    " I am searching for some kind menu.$ so i can easily added some procedure and can work with it   grtz..     tim=   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:17:38 +0100 (MET)a9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>m Subject: Re: menuI; Message-ID: <01KEB2UJ6YLE8Y7KQF@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e  $ > I am searching for some kind menu.& > so i can easily added some procedure > and can work with it   Below is a bare-bones menu:   , Call it with an input file as the parameter.  " Input file should have the format:   title  menu-item \ command  menu-item \ commandi .- .o .y  + The title appears at the top of the screen.r  H The menu item is what appears as an option to be selected.  The command F is anything which will work if you type it at the command line.  This I includes calling the menu itself.  If you define a symbol called MENU to aH execute the MENU.COM file and put this immediately after the backslash, H such sub-menus will have additional options to return to higher screens.  " Type SPAWN to create a subprocess.  F You can also SPAWN the menu itself, and use ATTACH to get back to the  parent process.   H Why use a menu?  Fewer symbols to define, allows inexperienced users to H do a fixed set of tasks safely, prevents the recall buffer from getting G filled up with repetitive commands, can be used as a checklist etc etc.   F Comments appreciated.  This is intentionally just bare-bones, but any ) real mistakes I would like to know about.   I --------8<---------------------------------------------------------------H   $! MENU.COMs $! $!. $! collect these and others somewhere sometime $! $  ESC[0,7] = 27 $  NORMAL = ESC + "[0m"t $  BOLD = ESC + "[1m"  $  UNDERLINE = ESC + "[4m" $! $!( $! get the PID of the parent process etc $! $  SPAWNED = 0" $  MY_PID     = F$GETJPI("","PID")) $  PARENT_PID = F$GETJPI("","MASTER_PID") . $  IF MY_PID .NES. PARENT_PID THEN SPAWNED = 1 $! $!0 $  MAXIMUM_NUMBER = F$GETDVI("TT","TT_PAGE") - 7, $  IF P1 .EQS. "" .OR. F$SEARCH(P1) .EQS. "" $  THEN   $    WSO "pass input file as P1" $    EXIT 5O $  ENDIF $  OPEN/READ INFILE 'P1'	 $  I = -1- $READ_LOOP:t% $    READ/END=READ_DONE INFILE RECORDh $    I = I + 1 $    IF I .GT. MAXIMUM_NUMBER 	 $    THENoC $      WSO "the screen is not high enough to display all the items" 
 $      EXIT 5 
 $    ENDIF( $    TEXT'I'   = F$ELEMENT(0,"\",RECORD) $    IF I .EQ. 0	 $    THEN  $      TEMP = TEXT'I' 1 $      CALL_TREE = """''TEMP'\MENU ''P1'#''P2'"""t
 $    ELSE * $      ACTION'I' = F$ELEMENT(1,"\",RECORD) $      TEMP = ACTION'I'a< $      IF F$EDIT(F$EXTRACT(0,5,TEMP),"UPCASE") .EQS. "MENU " $      THEN 0 $        ACTION'I' = ACTION'I' + " " + CALL_TREE $        SUBMENU'I' = 1e $        BOLD'I' = BOLD  $        NORMAL'I' = NORMAL  $      ELSE  $        SUBMENU'I' = 0  $        BOLD'I' = ""  $        NORMAL'I' = ""  $      ENDIF
 $    ENDIF $GOTO READ_LOOPo $READ_DONE:o $  CLOSE INFILE  i $  IF P2 .NES. ""  $  THENn $    SUBMENUS = 1a( $    MAXIMUM_NUMBER = MAXIMUM_NUMBER - 1& $    LETTERS = "A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K"
 $    K = 0 $CALLING_TREE_LOOP:  $    TEMP = F$ELEMENT(K,"#",P2) + $    IF TEMP .NES. "#" .AND. TEMP .NES. ""  	 $    THENc $      K = K + 1 $      X = I + K  $      IF X .GT. MAXIMUM_NUMBER  $      THENeE $        WSO "the screen is not high enough to display all the items"k $        EXIT 5b $      ENDIF( $      TEXT'X'   = F$ELEMENT(0,"\",TEMP)( $      ACTION'X' = F$ELEMENT(1,"\",TEMP) $      SUBMENU'X' = 1  $      BOLD'X' = BOLD  $      NORMAL'X' = NORMALl6 $      START = F$LOCATE(TEMP,P2) + F$LENGTH(TEMP) + 1 % $      LENGTH = F$LENGTH(P2) - START sC $      ACTION'X' = ACTION'X' + " ""''F$EXTRACT(START,LENGTH,P2)'"""s $GOTO CALLING_TREE_LOOP 
 $    ENDIF $  ELSE  $    SUBMENUS = 0  $  ENDIF	 $DISPLAY:  $  ERA	 $  WSO ""  $  LENGTH = F$LENGTH(TEXT0) % $  WIDTH = F$GETDVI("TT","DEVBUFSIZ")s $  OFFSET = (WIDTH - LENGTH)/2: $  WSO F$FAO("!''OFFSET'AS"," "), UNDERLINE, TEXT0, NORMAL	 $  WSO ""  $  J = 0 $  SPACE = "  "s $WRITE_LOOP: $  J = J + 1  $  IF J .GE. 10 THEN SPACE = " "1 $  WSO BOLD'J', J, ":", SPACE, TEXT'J', NORMAL'J' # $  IF J .EQ. I THEN GOTO WRITE_DONE  $GOTO WRITE_LOOP $WRITE_DONE: $  IF SUBMENUS $  THEN  $    WSO ""B
 $    L = 0 $SUBMENU_LOOP: $    X = I + L + 1D $    WSO BOLD'X', F$ELEMENT(L,",",LETTERS), ": ", TEXT'X', NORMAL'X' $    L = L + 1' $    IF L .EQ. K THEN GOTO SUBMENU_DONE  $GOTO SUBMENU_LOOP $  ENDIF $SUBMENU_DONE:	 $  WSO ""d $  WSO "X: EXIT"	 $  WSO ""  $  ANSWER = "" $  ON ERROR THEN CONTINUEa& $  READ/PROMPT="> " SYS$COMMAND ANSWER$ $  ANSWER = F$EDIT(ANSWER,"UPCASE") 5 $  IF ANSWER .EQS. "SPAWN" THEN SPAWN/PROMPT="MENU> " 1 $  IF ANSWER .EQS. "ATTACH" .AND. SPAWNED THEN -  (       ATTACH/IDENTIFICATION='PARENT_PID'% $  IF F$LENGTH(ANSWER) .NE. 1 .OR. - v>       ANSWER .EQS. "T" .OR. ANSWER .EQS. "Y" THEN GOTO DISPLAY" $  IF ANSWER .EQS. "X" THEN EXIT 5 $  TEMP = F$INTEGER(ANSWER)i $  IF SUBMENUS   $  THEN ? $    IF ANSWER .GES. F$ELEMENT(K,",",LETTERS) THEN GOTO DISPLAYi $    IF TEMP .EQ. 0 
 $    THEN 2        ANSWER = F$LOCATE(ANSWER,LETTERS)/2 + 1 + I	 $    ELSE  $      ANSWER = TEMP< $      IF ANSWER .LT. 1 .OR. ANSWER .GT. I THEN GOTO DISPLAY
 $    ENDIF $  ELSE 8 $  IF ANSWER .LT. 1 .OR. ANSWER .GT. I THEN GOTO DISPLAY $  ENDIFB $!  WSO "" ! not sure why this shows up after the erase is done!!!; $!  IF TEMP .NE. 0 .AND. .NOT. SUBMENU'ANSWER' THEN WSO ""  ( $  IF .NOT. SUBMENU'ANSWER' THEN WSO ""  $  TEMP = ACTION'ANSWER'	 $  'TEMP'   $  IF $STATUS .EQ. 5 THEN EXIT 5	 $  WSO ""t $  ANSWER = "" $  ON ERROR THEN CONTINUE ? $  READ/PROMPT="PRESS <RETURN> TO CONTINUE " SYS$COMMAND ANSWERn
 $GOTO DISPLAYg $  EXITp   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2002 12:59:19 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)s Subject: Re: menuH0 Message-ID: <a4j0n7$j4v$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  ] In article <dK6b8.49867$W05.115897@zonnet-reader-1>, "tim" <t_stekkinger@hotmail.com> writes: # >I am searching for some kind menu. % >so i can easily added some procedure  >and can work with it    Have a look at3  http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html  orL  http://www.garching-innovation.mpg.de/e_akterf/e_softwa/e_softtxt/menue.htm   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann   H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:19:54 +0100 & From: "tim" <t_stekkinger@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: menu 4 Message-ID: <LJ8b8.49916$W05.116396@zonnet-reader-1>   iam looking for DCLI    9 "WILLIAM WEBB" <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> schreef in berichta' news:0033000053255140000002L002*@MHS...p  $ Are you looking for DCL or compiled, freeware or commercial product?    WWWebb     -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ' Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 8:22 AM B To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET
 Subject: menu0    " I am searching for some kind menu.$ so i can easily added some procedure and can work with it   grtz..     tim=   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:26:47 -0500 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: menu - Message-ID: <0033000053272818000002L082*@MHS>y  + =0AHave you found SYS$EXAMPLES:MGRMENU.COM?    WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ( Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 10:20 AMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: RE: menuu     iam looking for DCLr    9 "WILLIAM WEBB" <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> schreef in berichts' news:0033000053255140000002L002*@MHS...r  $ Are you looking for DCL or compiled, freeware or commercial product?m   WWWebb     -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETl' Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 8:22 AMkB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET
 Subject: menu     " I am searching for some kind menu.$ so i can easily added some procedure and can work with it   grtz..     tim=3D=r   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2002 14:56:35 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)r$ Subject: Re: OT: "Crashless Windows", Message-ID: <a4j7j3$1ebe$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ' In article <3C6C897C.7FA7A450@fsi.net>,t4  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: |>/ |> Better not try that in the healthcare field!- |> s  C I hate to burst your bubble, but how many hospitals still run VMS??e How many run Windows??  7 Looks to me like they not only tried it, they liked it. C (I only visit any hospital once every couple of years.  My last two B visits were a number of years ago to have my knees scoped one year> apart for each.  When I went in for the first, they were still> running VMS.  When I went in a year later for the second, theyC were running NT 4.0.  Both trips went completely without surprises.-H As much as people here dislike MS junk, it is time for a reality check.)   bill   -- sJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:56:22 +0530 $ From: "Upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com>= Subject: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMS,/ Message-ID: <Qn6b8.90$YS1.635@news.cpqcorp.net>z   Hi,o  K Where can I get sample source codeof an application applications which usesT DECnet sockets and runs on VMS?9   Regards,	 Upadhyaya>   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:05:45 +0300 4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>A Subject: Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMSw0 Message-ID: <3C6CF999.B1F4A819@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>  / Have a look to OVMS source CD-ROM under /phone.o   Upadhyaya wrote: >  > Hi,f > M > Where can I get sample source codeof an application applications which usesn! > DECnet sockets and runs on VMS?  > 
 > Regards, > Upadhyaya+   -- r Cheers,RF +OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker .......................................+E  Russia,Delta Telecom Inc,                    Cel:  +7 (901) 971-3222 E  191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3                     116-3222rF +http://starlet.deltatel.ru ................. SysMan rides HailStorm +   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 06:29:52 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)nA Subject: Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMSo3 Message-ID: <3F6vRWgM+oni@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  V In article <Qn6b8.90$YS1.635@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com> writes:  M > Where can I get sample source codeof an application applications which uses ! > DECnet sockets and runs on VMS?-  C I have never heard of a "DECnet socket" and I have been programming , on VMS for 22 years (and DECnet for longer).  = If you mean just "uses DECnet" try the VMS documentation set.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:58:32 +0300-4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>A Subject: Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMS:0 Message-ID: <3C6D05F8.928D4FE5@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>  T DECnet socket - it's term used by WINsock specs writters based on DEC's definitions.   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > X > In article <Qn6b8.90$YS1.635@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com> writes: > O > > Where can I get sample source codeof an application applications which uses # > > DECnet sockets and runs on VMS?- > E > I have never heard of a "DECnet socket" and I have been programming@. > on VMS for 22 years (and DECnet for longer). > ? > If you mean just "uses DECnet" try the VMS documentation set.9   -- i Cheers,.F +OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker .......................................+E  Russia,Delta Telecom Inc,                    Cel:  +7 (901) 971-3222TE  191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3                     116-3222aF +http://starlet.deltatel.ru ................. SysMan rides HailStorm +   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:55:41 +0100)= From: Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@contrastmediagroep.nl> A Subject: Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMS 5 Message-ID: <3C6D054D.CA03CCF5@contrastmediagroep.nl>U   Upadhyaya wrote: >  > Hi,  > M > Where can I get sample source codeof an application applications which usesR! > DECnet sockets and runs on VMS?i  E In sys$examples there is are db_server.* and db_requester.* examples.i   Regards,   Oswald   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:52:33 +0530	$ From: "Upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com>A Subject: Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMS 0 Message-ID: <_Y8b8.109$YS1.716@news.cpqcorp.net>   thanks   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 12:47:35 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)eA Subject: Re: OT: Source code - DECnet socket applications for VMS 3 Message-ID: <rlp8Sd+xB5$j@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <3C6D05F8.928D4FE5@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>, "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU> writes:hV > DECnet socket - it's term used by WINsock specs writters based on DEC's definitions. >  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> tY >> In article <Qn6b8.90$YS1.635@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Upadhyaya" <ups@hotvoice.com> writes:  >> eP >> > Where can I get sample source codeof an application applications which uses$ >> > DECnet sockets and runs on VMS? >> EF >> I have never heard of a "DECnet socket" and I have been programming/ >> on VMS for 22 years (and DECnet for longer).N >>  @ >> If you mean just "uses DECnet" try the VMS documentation set.  C So how would one use them on VMS ?  I thought WINsock was something- that ran on PeeCees.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 02:16:41 -0800 (PST)0. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>Y Subject: Re: Scandinavian Language(s) was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veteranu@ Message-ID: <20020215101642.25977.qmail@web20206.mail.yahoo.com>  6 Just talking about languages, I lived with two dutches1 for 6 months - I allways tought they were drunkedU texan speaking :-))))T    3 And about catalan ... I used to joke with my friendY3 that it is a frontier language - they almost killedt me.y   :-)))b  5 But for me the most strange is Thai.. bong, bing, !!!E   FabioU    * --- J Ahlstrom <jahlstro@cisco.com> wrote: > Terje Mathisen wrote:N > >  > > Peter Finderup Lund wrote: > > > 6 > > > On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk > wrote: > > >)3 > > > > I know the Danish also sing their language,R > but I don't think it's > > > > critical that they do. > > >04 > > > No we don't.  At least not in general - only a > few  dialects are a bit 4 > > > like that.  None of them have "musical accent" > (is that what it's calleda4 > > > in English?) like Chinese or ancient Greeek to > some extent had. > > > / > > > Danish is infamous among the Scandinavian.  > tongues for /not/ having a lot6 > > > of melody (only very few tones are used and they > are quite close).r > > 4 > > Indeed. All Danes speak as if they have a potato > in their mouth, or at5- > > least this is what it sounds like to most  > Norwegians. :-)n > > > * > > > Maybe you are thinking of Norwegian? > > 6 > > Possibly some west coast or northern dialect then, > 'Bokml' is too close  > > to Danish. > > 	 > > Terje1 > >  > > --$ > > - <Terje.Mathisen@hda.hydro.com>/ > > "almost all programming can be viewed as ano > exercise in caching" >  > " > The way I heard it there is only% > 1 Scandinavian language, it is justm, > that the Swedes don't know how to spell it/ > and the Danes don't know how to pronounce it.b >  >  > -- e. > The first ten amendments to the constitution- > are what make this a country worth fightingn- > for.  Ignorance and apathy are what make ita > so difficult to defend.  >      Jack Barone > 4 > You do not preserve freedom by destroying freedom. >      Eric Greenh     =====g ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazils fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?; Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail   http://mail.yahoo.com    ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2002 13:40:14 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)t> Subject: Re: Security for VMS systems visable to the  Internet, Message-ID: <a4j33u$1cfp$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3C6C400C.9090808@tsoft-inc.com>,+  David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:fK |> Well, I've read about security, and I've talked about security, but I'm  > |> pretty sure that it's what I don't know that could hurt me. |> tC |> I've recently made one of my VMS systems visable to my internet sK |> connection, via settings in my router.  It's a rather plain venella VMS tL |> V7.2-1 system with TCPIP V5.0A, DECnet IV, etc.  Since doing this, I see % |> the following several times a day.o |> k; |> %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  14-FEB-2002 17:28:39.08  %%%%%%%%%%% % |> Message from user INTERnet on JODIsJ |> INTERnet ACP FTP Accept Request from Host: 209.127.72.194   Port: 49637 |> bJ |> Yep, there appears to be those with nothing better to do than probe IP  |> addresses.  -  H Get used to it.  They have a purpose and they are very persistent.  TheyH are warez vendors looking for the next sucker^H^H^H^H^H^H open anonymousI ftp site so they can upload all their illegal junk and then advertise it.!  G Badly setup anonymous ftp sites are as valuable to net denizens (and as ) common) as open SMTP and open NNTP sites.I  
 All the best.    bill   -- .J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 15:30:14 GMT   From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>> Subject: Re: Security for VMS systems visable to the  Internet8 Message-ID: <u5aq6uk3c6jf45clsn4ua1rdihm8mj8fsj@4ax.com>  F Dave, when I had 3 IP addresses from my cable operator, I had the sameD problems.  Generally, I followed typical security procedures to keep> the system locked up (some have already been mentioned in thisC discussion).  I also TELNETted to some of the offenders just to see C what they had, and I also forwarded those addresses to my cable ISP E provider... though I really doubt that they *ever* did anything about 8 them - they definitely *never* responded to my messages.  E Eventually I bought a Linksys cable/dsl router which filters out mostOD stuff.  I can, if I wish, map specific ports to specific machines inE my home network (including my VMS systems) with this router.  Most ofSE the time I don't leave them turned on anymore (due to other reasons).   : It's pretty sad how many people have nothing better to do.    F On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:54:04 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  I >Well, I've read about security, and I've talked about security, but I'm l< >pretty sure that it's what I don't know that could hurt me. >FA >I've recently made one of my VMS systems visable to my internet  I >connection, via settings in my router.  It's a rather plain venella VMS  J >V7.2-1 system with TCPIP V5.0A, DECnet IV, etc.  Since doing this, I see # >the following several times a day.T >'9 >%%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  14-FEB-2002 17:28:39.08  %%%%%%%%%%%R# >Message from user INTERnet on JODISH >INTERnet ACP FTP Accept Request from Host: 209.127.72.194   Port: 49637 >TH >Yep, there appears to be those with nothing better to do than probe IP G >addresses.  I haven't yet been able to identify the domain for any of "J >the IP addresses I've seen.  Most probes are FTP connect requests, but I  >did see one TELNET attempt. > I >I've got only a few user accounts, some with privs, and others without. GJ >  It's my feeling that reasonable username and password data, along with F >break-in detection and countermeasures, should be adequate security. G >There's nothing important on the system, but it could be a gateway to TF >other systems (once someone's in) that are a bit more valuable to me. >OB >Keeping up with the hackers and their techniques isn't one of my D >activities.I do development work.  Security has never been a daily G >activity for me.  It's the things that I'm not aware of that will get   >me, if anything does. >HF >I don't think I really need to lock the system down in ways that are G >available to VMS.  If I thought that, I wouldn't have allowed outside QH >access in the first place.  Any suggestions on things that I should be 
 >considering?i >  >DaveM  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq"- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:46:32 -0500S1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>O> Subject: Re: Security for VMS systems visable to the  Internet2 Message-ID: <3C6D2D58.8E5997DE@firstdbasource.com>   jlsue wrote: >  <snip>G > the time I don't leave them turned on anymore (due to other reasons)..  > I bet one of those reasons is that you would have your account6 disconnected for opening those particular ports :) ...   <snip>   -- T Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163 7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.comS Sr. Consultant?       ***I FINALLY GOT A CONTRACT/JOB... AFTER ONLY 2 MONTHS***2   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Feb 2002 16:41:39 GMT1 From: Dale Dellutri <ddelQQQlutr@entQQQeract.com>.> Subject: Re: Security for VMS systems visable to the  Internet+ Message-ID: <a4jdo3$7n0$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   M On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 17:54:04 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:dJ > Well, I've read about security, and I've talked about security, but I'm = > pretty sure that it's what I don't know that could hurt me.p >eB > I've recently made one of my VMS systems visable to my internet J > connection, via settings in my router.  It's a rather plain venella VMS 1 > V7.2-1 system with TCPIP V5.0A, DECnet IV, etc.4 > ...1J > I've got only a few user accounts, some with privs, and others without. K >   It's my feeling that reasonable username and password data, along with iG > break-in detection and countermeasures, should be adequate security.  H > There's nothing important on the system, but it could be a gateway to G > other systems (once someone's in) that are a bit more valuable to me.2  G You don't mention why you made the system visible to the internet, nor  F what incoming services you allow.  It seems to me that there are some C services that are easier to control than others.  But if TELNET is aE allowed, do you have some scheme to protect usernames/passwords from r? the time they're keyed in at some machine and as they traverse O
 the internet?-  D It's a tough problem, and the vendors of the various products, even G ones aimed at security, seem to be in perpetual catch-up mode.  My ISP a: no longer allows SSHv1 because of bugs (on a UNIX system).   -- d; Dale Dellutri -- ddelQQQlutr@entQQQeract.com (lose the Q's)t   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:38:58 GMT1+ From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com>B Subject: Software Question5 Message-ID: <1013773044.906493@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>8  D I'm not a software guy per say, so please excuse the [possibly] dumb	 question.   H If a situation arose where a software person needed to compile some codeL (Fortran/C/C++) on VMS 7.1-1h2 using fortran V7.1 and C/C++ V5.5-017 and theL resulting .exe's etc run on VMS 6.2-1h3, would there be any issues (run timeE libraies or something) I need to consider or would it be ok? When our4L software chaps come back to the office we will be doing a test, but prior toE this, are there any considerations that we should be aware of please?V  8 Sorry for the dumb question, I'm more of a hardware guy.   Cheers   Andy   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:43:14 +0100c9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>e Subject: Re: Software Question' Message-ID: <3C6CF452.7957A18E@aaa.com>   6 You could also test with linking on the target system.3 And don't compile with support for the later Alphasa) if the target system is an earlier Alpha."   Jan-Erik Sderholm   Andy Proctor wrote:> > F > I'm not a software guy per say, so please excuse the [possibly] dumb > question.> > J > If a situation arose where a software person needed to compile some codeN > (Fortran/C/C++) on VMS 7.1-1h2 using fortran V7.1 and C/C++ V5.5-017 and theN > resulting .exe's etc run on VMS 6.2-1h3, would there be any issues (run timeG > libraies or something) I need to consider or would it be ok? When ourbN > software chaps come back to the office we will be doing a test, but prior toG > this, are there any considerations that we should be aware of please?e > : > Sorry for the dumb question, I'm more of a hardware guy. >  > Cheers >  > Andy   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:18:10 +0000), From: Mark Redding <grawlfang@ukhackers.net> Subject: Re: Software Question- Message-ID: <3C6CFC82.4649DC0D@ukhackers.net>    Andy,o  L In my experience it's always been safest to link the .OBJ code on the targetO system, especially when that target is running an older version of VMS than thea source system.   Andy Proctor wrote:r  F > I'm not a software guy per say, so please excuse the [possibly] dumb > question.n >oJ > If a situation arose where a software person needed to compile some codeN > (Fortran/C/C++) on VMS 7.1-1h2 using fortran V7.1 and C/C++ V5.5-017 and theN > resulting .exe's etc run on VMS 6.2-1h3, would there be any issues (run timeG > libraies or something) I need to consider or would it be ok? When ouriN > software chaps come back to the office we will be doing a test, but prior toG > this, are there any considerations that we should be aware of please?o >o: > Sorry for the dumb question, I'm more of a hardware guy. >i > Cheers >r > Andy   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 13:17:48 GMTt+ From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com>  Subject: Re: Software Question5 Message-ID: <1013778974.511594@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>.  9 "Mark Redding" <grawlfang@ukhackers.net> wrote in messagee' news:3C6CFC82.4649DC0D@ukhackers.net...b > Andy,p >nG > In my experience it's always been safest to link the .OBJ code on the. targetH > system, especially when that target is running an older version of VMS than the > source system. >   K I understand, thanks. The reason for the question was that up until now all K the compiling/linking was done under VMS6.2-1h3 and it looks like this unitoF (Alpha 200) is about to die, we only have PWS433 and above running VMSJ 7.1-1h2+ apart from this, but it looks like we will use a DS10 and VMS 7.3I in furture. Problem is we still have to support, and provide software forn+ 6.2-1h3 versions. :( Your info helps thoughe   Cheers   Andy   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:01:16 +0100"( From: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise       of  v& Message-ID: <3C6CDC6C.FFE7DF3C@gmx.de>  % greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk schrieb:aG > S'why Sartre was stylish and talked in a more personal way, while thetG > German philosophers adeptly and often describe 250 different types ofiD > depression. In fact German probably has more words for unhappiness! > than the Eskimos have for snow.t  D Last time I checked, German has more words for snow than the Eskimos. have. It's just a common myth (see for example7 http://www.stg.brown.edu/~sjd/mymusings/eskimo.html, orCC http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~atman/Misc/eskimo-snow-words.html, orDH http://www.zompist.com/lang16.html, or http://www.mendosa.com/snow.html,* or just by clicking at the links on GoogleH http://www.google.com/search?q=How+many+words+Eskimos+snow&hl=de&meta=).E If you remove morphemes out (we don't count flections, either), therePB are somewhere between four and two dozend roots for snow an what'sD around snow, and depending on which people you call "Eskimo" (Inuit,B Yup'ik, or Aleut). Since the figures grow after each reference (byE introducing new works as "snow", like "water" for "melt-down snow" orcH "old snow in the radio" when they play oldies), I suppose the four roots are correct.   -- n Bernd Paysan7 "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"  http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:07:50 +0100n3 From: Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com>eY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise       of   - Message-ID: <3C6D2446.E2FB615F@hda.hydro.com>t   Bernd Paysan wrote:: > ' > greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk schrieb: I > > S'why Sartre was stylish and talked in a more personal way, while the-I > > German philosophers adeptly and often describe 250 different types oflF > > depression. In fact German probably has more words for unhappiness# > > than the Eskimos have for snow.g > F > Last time I checked, German has more words for snow than the Eskimos0 > have. It's just a common myth (see for example  E There was a program about this regarding same/lapp people in northern  Norway.t  H I am sure they had specific terms (with distinct roots) for more than 10 (20+?) different kinds of snow.q  0 In norwegian we only have a few real snow words:  F Sn, sne, fokk, skare, srpe, slaps, sludd, holke, some of which might
 be debatable.>  D We have another group of words that are only used for describing theE skiing conditions, often based on the word 'fre', meaning what's theE skiing glide/stickiness like:   7 silke/silkefre, gjennomslags-fre, kladder/kladdefre,  skavler/skavlefre  C likewise there's several words that are really based on a 'sne/sn'./ (snow) ending, but can also be used standalone:1   pudder, kram, krystall, korn  @ Anyway, the basic idea that humans tend to develop many words toH describe stuff that's important/close to them seems to be correct. (I.e.% number of words for human genitalia.)@  G Taking a quick peek in the jargon file shows that this definitely holdsd for programmers! :-)   Terjes -- h  - <Terje.Mathisen@hda.hydro.com>@ "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 06:51:12 -0800' From: steve.esson@esa.int (hieronymous).# Subject: Re: TCPIP$Config  problems = Message-ID: <fe9697fd.0202150651.6662141d@posting.google.com>N  ? > A quick workaround could be the edit TCPIP$CONFIG.COM and fixb1 > this. Be sure to keep a copy of the orig. Test.) >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm/ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! F This was indeed a workaround but it wasn't quick.  So, for anyone elseA who gets the problem: after you fix this syntax error you'll findtD another one a few lines further down.  Once this is fixed you have aF procedure which runs but which has further problems from logic errors. (like this for example:)   PORTMAPPER Configuration  ! Service is defined in the SYSUAF.l1 Service is defined in the TCPIP$SERVICE database.n1 Service is enabled on specific and cluster nodes.  Service is started.y  )         PORTMAPPER configuration options:   1                  1 - Disable service on all nodesa1                  2 - Disable service on this nodeo  .                  3 - Stop service on this node8                  4 - Disable & Stop service on this node  3                 [E] - Exit PORTMAPPER configurationi   Enter configuration option: el  C  WARNING: NFS and PC-NFS will not function with portmapper disabledh  7 Invalid configuration option selected, please try againi Press Return to continue ...  % Obviously never been tested properly.e  B In the end I just extracted the necessary bits to do what I needed	 manually.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:54:59 -0800g# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> # Subject: RE: TCPIP$Config  problemsc9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEGMECAA.tom@kednos.com>r  E Send a working copy back to Compaq so they can include it in the next G distribution.  I've notice the reinvention of many wheels on this list.i   > -----Original Message-----0 > From: hieronymous [mailto:steve.esson@esa.int]) > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 6:51 AMo > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com $ > Subject: Re: TCPIP$Config problems >o >oA > > A quick workaround could be the edit TCPIP$CONFIG.COM and fixG3 > > this. Be sure to keep a copy of the orig. Test.t > >j > > Jan-Erik Sderholm1 > !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!jH > This was indeed a workaround but it wasn't quick.  So, for anyone elseC > who gets the problem: after you fix this syntax error you'll findaF > another one a few lines further down.  Once this is fixed you have aH > procedure which runs but which has further problems from logic errors. > (like this for example:) > PORTMAPPER Configuration >e# > Service is defined in the SYSUAF.'3 > Service is defined in the TCPIP$SERVICE database. 3 > Service is enabled on specific and cluster nodes.  > Service is started.r >t+ >         PORTMAPPER configuration options:- >-3 >                  1 - Disable service on all nodesI3 >                  2 - Disable service on this nodef > 0 >                  3 - Stop service on this node: >                  4 - Disable & Stop service on this node >I5 >                 [E] - Exit PORTMAPPER configurationr >e > Enter configuration option: eh > E >  WARNING: NFS and PC-NFS will not function with portmapper disableds >t9 > Invalid configuration option selected, please try againd > Press Return to continue ... >u' > Obviously never been tested properly.n >aD > In the end I just extracted the necessary bits to do what I needed > manually.. >i   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 07:22:44 GMT . From: "Jim Strehlow" <JimStrehlow@bigfoot.com>  Subject: Re: vms 7.3 diagnostics/ Message-ID: <8H2b8.60155$fK1.4170373@rwcrnsc54>   : The answer was not obvious from the documentation for 7.3.6 I learn quite a lot by browsing the comp.os.vms forum.  # Thank you all for your information.c  ' Jim Strehlow, Data911, JimS@data911.comn Alameda, CAD    6 "Rob Buxton" <rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz> wrote in message) news:3c6afa2a.5572172@news.wcc.govt.nz...rG > On 13 Feb 2002 18:39:29 GMT, "Jim Strehlow" <jims@data911.com> wrote:d >sK > >Is it true that we must use Windows to view diagnostics on OpenVMS v7.3?c6 > >Gone are the days of $ANALYZE/ERROR and $DIAGNOSE ? >  > No it's not true.aB > If you've got DECEvent installed it still works with 7.3 without* > needing any kind of windows environment. >n > diagnose/interactive > diagnose/translate/summary >m > all work as they shouldu >  > >k9 > >How do we monitor errors via a serial line connection?, > > * > >Jim Strehlow, Data911, JimS@data911.com > >Alameda, CA   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 06:18:14 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t6 Subject: RE: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS?3 Message-ID: <5yimzEaP2+f9@eisner.encompasserve.org>4   In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1CAF@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> writes:  E > And of course not being susceptible to the 32bit server virus's andt9                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^nH > hacker stuff goes without saying  - as is also the case with other Web > servers on OpenVMS..  I It's ok, Kerry.  There are no children present.  You can say _Microsoft_.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:16:30 -0500M+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> 6 Subject: RE: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS?T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4016CEA74@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  @ >>> It's ok, Kerry.  There are no children present.  You can say _Microsoft_.<<  H Well, actually I meant all 32bit server OS's since there are a number of them out there..  2 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/23901.html   :-)d   Regardsh  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultante Compaq Canada Corp.  Professional Servicest Voice: 613-592-4660o Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----4 From: Larry Kilgallen [mailto:Kilgallen@SpamCop.net] Sent: February 15, 2002 7:18 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 6 Subject: RE: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS?    
 In articleH <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1CAF@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>/ , "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> writes:   E > And of course not being susceptible to the 32bit server virus's ande9                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^ H > hacker stuff goes without saying  - as is also the case with other Web > servers on OpenVMS..  < It's ok, Kerry.  There are no children present.  You can say _Microsoft_.   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 06:22:20 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)6 Subject: Re: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS?= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0202150622.4f650790@posting.google.com>c  e Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> wrote in message news:<3C6C98FB.6050605@wasd.vsm.com.au>...u > Bob Ceculski wrote: Q > > there is nothing wrong w/free, but if it is not production quality, what good M > > is it?  we tried free ... csws as I mentioned above wasted several monthstO > > of our time, and osu, sure it had a proxy server, but then read in the docs Q > > that it was not production quality as we found out, and stated "proxy serversuL > > are tricky to write" ... can you guarantee we will not run into the same > > problems w/wasd? >  > Why would I want to Bob? >  > I'm not a salesperson. > K > My commission on each site is so close to zero as to be zero (I've had a yF > rigorous proof of this prepared by one of the mathematicians in our / > group - though I had had a hunch beforehand).  > F > I can't remember the last time I was flown across country (even) to K > present a session on the pros-and-cons intergrating your E-Business with o > WASD.u > 3 > 'Bout the only thing I get out of it is red eyes.e > G > If you use it and it find it useful and convey that back then that's rK > pretty much all a freeware author seems to need (apart from the fame and  J > groupies of course).  Might be a very interesting thesis for some psych G > post-grad to prepare a profile of freeware authors and infer from it lJ > what makes them tick.  On the other hand it might be so very obvious to / > everyone but freeware authors (or only me ;^)e > G > On a related theme; when does something become "production quality"? eA > One crash, two crashes, one bug, two bugs, one limitation, two sH > limitations?  More or less than this doesn't really matter 'cause I'm ( > going to refer to this site anyway ... > 3 >    http://ftp.digital.com.au/pub/ecoinfo/ecoinfo/   B I have been on vms for over 16 years now "without" an os crash ...D We have been on purveyor for two years now w/o a crash or lockup ...> We have been on TCPware for over 2 years now w/o a problem ...E These are called testimonials ... do you have any, including your owntE that suggests that wasd is reliable ... thats all I am asking for ...nF My point is, you have a job, and wasd is not your primary job, it is aE side hobby, and it is great that you are trying to help others w/free0G shareware, but software that you pay for is generally better (i.e. vms)SH than shareware (i.e. linux) because you are paying for it (the exceptionD to this is microsoft) ... wasd may be an exception, and testimonials/ would answer any questions ... do you have any?w   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 06:01:45 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)6 Subject: Re: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS?= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0202150601.3020e2b2@posting.google.com>n   winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote in message news:<00A0991B.4DCEA3F4@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>...j > In article <d7791aa1.0202141918.7275a871@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:h > >Mark Daniel <Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> wrote in message news:<3C6C58FB.2030605@wasd.vsm.com.au>... > C > >> > 3.0b5 hangs if an upload of a variable-record format file is F > >> > attempted.  Stick to STREAM-LF or fixed, or convert the file to > >> > STREAM-LF.s > >.P > >there is nothing wrong w/free, but if it is not production quality, what goodL > >is it?  we tried free ... csws as I mentioned above wasted several monthsN > >of our time, and osu, sure it had a proxy server, but then read in the docsP > >that it was not production quality as we found out, and stated "proxy serversK > >are tricky to write" ... can you guarantee we will not run into the samee > >problems w/wasd?n > O > CSWS may or may not be a production webserver, since that's not well-defined, O > but it is supported by Compaq and under active development.  If Purveyor doeseP > everything you need, great, but don't expect people who are happily using WASDN > or OSU or CSWS to stop doing that, to stop recommending the servers they're M > happy with, or to accept your assertions that Purveyor is the only good VMSa > server.  e > 	 > -- Alan  >   H I didn't say to stop using others and use purveyor, I gave an outline ofJ our problems w/other servers and w/our success w/purveyor so those lookingG for one can research and find out which is best for them, however w/ourmM problems w/csws and osu, I cannot reccomend these ... as for wasd, a previousrH poster made an assertion that wasd was better than purveyor ... and fromE reading wasd docs, their is nothing to prove that it is ... unless weaH are forced off purveyor, our company cannot take anymore chances like weI did w/csws or osu and waste time in development only to run into problems H months later ... I can state that from our testing w/these and all threeJ vms ip stacks, and our 2 yrs w/o a problem that tcpware purveyor is a rockI solid platform for vms ... a production webserver is one that has been inhL use (several years at least) by a major company (digital) and by us that hasF preformed pretty much flawlessly on vms ... downtime on the web is un-L acceptable, which is why we run vms, and a production quality webserver must do the same!   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 16:36:49 +0100g6 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jean=2DFran=E7ois=20PI=C9RONNE?= 6 Subject: Re: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS?+ Message-ID: <3C6D2B11.62632B36@laposte.net>n   Hi Bob,   = clearly you answer without carefully read the post of Grard:   P The main part of his sentence is "Wasd is better", the fact it is free is just a supplementary information.  J Where is the windoze/unix/linux mentality ? What is your problem with free
 software ?  L Wasd is by far superior to Purveyor, and i know sites which has migrate fromN Purveyor to Wasd, so it is an experimental fact, take a look at the ability to: run script under any account, or the throttling mechanism.  P If you want to convince me that Purveyor is bug free, i am sorry it's not what iN have seem. For examples, sometimes, Purveyor leak sockets and the cache of the) proxy have a lot of performance problems.1  O Sure Purveyor have a lot of nice functionality, for example automatic reload ofuE the mapping rule, in Wasd you have to click on the reload link in theD7 administration menu or use the command httpd/do=map ....  L If you want to compare functionalities, we will compare, we can also compare performances if you want...   J I strongly suggest you take a look at the Wasd documentation which is very	 complete:  (http://wasd.vsm.com.au)    M And if you absolutely want to pay, send money to Mark to support his work ;-)r  P I don' try to convince you to replace Wasd, if you are happy with it continue to use it.b   Regard,j  
 Jean-Franoiso   Bob Ceculski a crit : > \ > "labadie" <labadie_g@decus.fr> wrote in message news:<%mPa8.19$YS1.86@news.cpqcorp.net>...1 > > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in  > > > TCPware for VMS ...p > >wC > > May be, but unless you give real data, I will  not believe you.uF > > Anyway Tcpip V5.1 eco 3, and to come soon Tcpip 5.3 is quite good. > >rI > > As you often say Purveyor is the best Web server for Vms, and as I ampE > > convinced that Wasd is better (and free, and with a great doc)...nP > > Have you read the document cited in the message of  Jean-Francois Pironne ? > >t > > Regards- > >s
 > > Grard > N > and second, you have that windoze/unix/linux mentality that "wants somethingL > for nothing"!  and what you end up getting is garbage linux "c" sharewhareK > (i.e. apache) that is full of bugs and errors and "problems"!  if you andrK > other vms users would realize that the best things in life are not alwaysoL > free, vms apps available would be alot more than what they are now, just aO > bunch of sharewhare, ported "c" unix/linux windoze garbage!  purveyor howeversN > stands out from the rest, and yes we will pay that measly $900 for a product  > that is as reliable as vms ...   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Feb 2002 12:48:30 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)c6 Subject: RE: What is the best NFS package for OpenVMS?3 Message-ID: <PXD5EOVGK4G8@eisner.encompasserve.org>c   In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4016CEA74@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> writes: > A >>>> It's ok, Kerry.  There are no children present.  You can sayh > _Microsoft_.<< > J > Well, actually I meant all 32bit server OS's since there are a number of > them out there.v   Do you mean VAX VMS ?    Or would that be MVS and NSK ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:53:16 +0100r3 From: Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com>kY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of      compaqs- Message-ID: <3C6CCC7C.EF75C00E@hda.hydro.com>    Peter Boyle wrote: > 
 > Offhand, > * > On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, Chris Hedley wrote: > ? > > According to Malcolm <malcolmix@neverness.freeserve.co.uk>:a; > > >     Scots          German          English    Geordied > / >         kirk           kirchen         Churche- >         ken            kennen          knowb- >         cauld          kalt            coldi  % Adding norwegian: kirke, kjenne, kaltr >  > Peters > : > > >     tae mak        machen          to make    te mekG > > >     dochter        Tochter         daughter   wor lass (or bairn)e6 > > >     hardneckit     hartnaeckig       ???      ??7 > > >     wha            Wie             Who        whes: > > >     tae gae        gehen           to go      te gan= > > >     I gang         Ich gange       I went     ah gannedc  C og lage, datter, gjenstridig (no good/direct translation), hvem (orb% vem/kem in dialects),  g, jeg gikk.    Terjet   --    - <Terje.Mathisen@hda.hydro.com>@ "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.090 ************************