/ INFO-VAX	Tue, 01 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 1       Contents: Current XRN for VMS  Re: Current XRN for VMS 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsP Re: Inquirer report: Hewlett proxy filing says PC losses barely covered by otherP Re: Inquirer report: Hewlett proxy filing says PC losses barely covered by other/ Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs ! Re: Too Few Servers opcom message G Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger G Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceedsP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceedsP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:13:30 -0500 ( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> Subject: Current XRN for VMSB Message-ID: <20011231140154.E20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  I Thanks to a lot of help from John McLean I have a really good VAX running F VMS in my home collection.  I wanted this in order to start looking atH porting some FreeWare.  Being a long term XRN user, I thought this wouldF make an excellent candidate as older versions had been modified to run
 under VMS.  E A quick read of the README shows that all the Motif had been removed:   5                 What happened to the Motif interface?   H     Previous versions of XRN, up to and including version 7.00, includedF   support for building XRN with Motif instead of the Athena widget setG   ("Xaw").  However, the Motif support has been removed (temporarily, I    hope) in later releases.  I No problem, there appears to be a version of Xaw (and the needed Xmu) for  VMS.  
 But wait!!  H A quick scan of the code reveals that it wasn't the Motif stuff that hadJ been removed, it was any reference to VMS (granted, VMS was the apparentlyH the only user of the XRN Motif code, but not all the VMS references were specifically for Motif.)  N This being the case, I don't know that re-converting XRN to VMS is necessarilyK a valuable project.  Might be a better idea to just work on a windowed news 6 reader spcifically designed for VMS inthe first place.  J The question then would be which language would be best to write this in??J Or would it make sense to take something like XRN or Knews and re-write itN in a safer language which could then be ported back to other OSes if desired??  
 Comments??   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2001 15:35:49 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)   Subject: Re: Current XRN for VMS3 Message-ID: <d8gzklKNljnH@eisner.encompasserve.org>   m In article <20011231140154.E20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> writes:   P > This being the case, I don't know that re-converting XRN to VMS is necessarilyM > a valuable project.  Might be a better idea to just work on a windowed news 8 > reader spcifically designed for VMS inthe first place. > L > The question then would be which language would be best to write this in??L > Or would it make sense to take something like XRN or Knews and re-write itP > in a safer language which could then be ported back to other OSes if desired??   I gather XRN is a newsreader. E Personally I use a character-cell newsreader, and I find it faster to E do things than in the (few) GUI newsreaders I have encountered.  That E may just be limitations of those implementations rather than anything , inherent in the concept of a GUI newsreader.  I I always think the best language is the one that will minimize the chance G of runtime errors and maximize the chance that defects will be manifest H at compile time.  This should especially be true for a project like thisC where the users will be far from the maintainer.  For me that means # Ada, or as a second choice, Pascal.   C If one wants to do an outstanding job with a newsreader, I think it C is crucial to have it be feature-complete.  The "missing feature" I F have found recently with ANUNEWS is a lack of flexibility in filtering8 out hipcrime attacks against news.admin.net-abuse.email.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:21:10 -0500 ( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECB Message-ID: <20011231141537.I20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  # On 30 Dec 2001, Bill Pechter wrote:   7 > In article <3C2E9074.4EBD2C31@bartek.dontspamme.net>,  > >>M > >> Yeah, but what's the virtue of being shell-only, when there are multiple F > >> shells and you can't guarantee which one you'll be running under. > > I > >That's what the "#!/bin/sh" is for in the beginning of a shell script. / > >I can make sure that I have the right shell.  > >  > >aak > : > Which doesn't work in AT&T/USL systems before SVR3 iirc.D > At least my old SysIII and SVR2 based systems used : at the top of8 > /bin/sh  and # for csh and didn't support #!shellname.  C What's your point??  The DCL from my VMS-7.3 Alpha won't work under B DCL for RSTS V9.0 either.  Why is it people here have to resort toA comparing current VMS to 20 year old versions of Unix in order to   prove the supposed superiority??  @ Why not just admit that there is no definitive way of describingA "The Perfect OS" (tm) as it is totally subjective and get on with A the task of trying to make what we have the best for the tasks we  need it to do.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:28:04 -0500 ( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECB Message-ID: <20011231142457.K20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  ( On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, David Froble wrote:   > Ben Franchuk wrote:  > C > > I am saving my heart attack for finding people still programing 0 > > in assembly for something other than a 6502! > >  > >  > >  > / > Get ready for some chest pains.  Well, maybe.  > I > I still do a few things in MACRO-32, when appropriate.  One could argue J > that if on an Alpha that this isn't an assembly language.  However, I do  > have a few VAXs laying around. > H > To be fair, if you meant 'exclusively' in assembly, no never did that. >   / Did it, in 8080, Z80, 6809, 68000 and Macro-11.   H Still do it periodically in Z80, 6809 and 68000, but mostly just for fun now.  K Still do it quite a bit in Macro-11 (and PDP-11 without any of the Macro-11  enhancements).   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2001 14:31:54 -0500- From: Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <mdd7kr3kwyd.fsf@panix3.panix.com>  - Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes:   M > I am saving my heart attack for finding people still programing in assembly " > for something other than a 6502!   Somebody call the EMTs for Ben.   ; We do *most* of our programming for the Toad-1 in Macro-10.    --  N Rich Alderson                                          alderson+news@panix.comL   "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endless   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:17:24 GMT 0 From: Monty Brandenberg <mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <3C30D631.DBBB6044@ne.mediaone.net>    Peter da Silva wrote:  >   6 > What on earth does X have to do with UNIX scripting?  = And why do you think that CDE is synonymous with X or are non ; sequiturs and red herrings your forte?  The components that A work as I said have nothing to do with X but with the application @ framework and so are intrinsically tied to execution environment not windowing environment.   > X is a portable network L > window system, which was implemented first on both VMS and UNIX, and I runJ > my X server on NT as often as UNIX these days. It has its own mechanismsL > for passing information between program, using the X server as a mediator,N > that are entirely unrelated to the UNIX shell. It has its own authenticationL > and privilege model, entirely separate from UNIX, VMS, or any other OS one" > is runing a client or server on.  A Having worked at both the consortium and on the first VMS port of F X, I would never have known that.  I'm so lucky to have a good teacher here.   L > However I am not surprised that CDE is trying to do something awful to tryL > and throw data around behind the server's back instead of using the normalN > X mechanisms. I don't have anything against OS/2, but trying to emulate OS/2M > in X or UNIX is just as futile as trying to make UNIX behave like VMS or X.  > M > You're just providing more support to my argument that you should learn the H > native tools and use them the way they work best rather than trying to* > shoehorn everything into a single model.  L Actually, you've demonstrated that you don't know the goals and requirementsI of the task while acting as an armchair general to the designers.  You've I presumed mechanism based on what you know the latter being inadequate and = so you're guilty of exactly that of which you're complaining.    --  M Monty Brandenberg, Software Consultant                              MCB, Inc. M mcbinc@world.std.com                                          P.O. Box 426188 M mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net                              Cambridge, MA  02142-0021  617.864.6907   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 22:17:01 GMT & From: badbob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <3C30E57B.FE6BB803@bellatlantic.net>   Plonk    Bob Ceculski wrote:  > c > peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote in message news:<a0o6l9$fav$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>... A > > In article <d7791aa1.0112301338.1ae3f25b@posting.google.com>, - > > Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote: N > > >one things for sure, those unix soldiers have a "lot" more war stories to > > >tell than vms people! > > % > > Well, there's a lot more *of* us.  > > < > > >if you like a conveluted environment like unix, why not8 > > >just replace the dcl cli w/unix one and run on vms? > > I > > For the same reason I don't insist on driving on the left side of the  > > road when in the US. > G > you cut out the security and reliability part ... vms is on the right D > side of the road ... why are you driving on the left w/unix (gag)?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:37:21 -0500   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <1011231172953.418B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  , On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Michael Zarlenga wrote:  = > In comp.os.vms Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote: B > : 	Having been bit too many times with SYLOGIN.COM abbreviationsJ > : 	or expansions that "everyone" is using and shying away from SET SCOPE& > : 	the habit (depending on mood) is: > K > : 	$ deletery *.tmp_scratch;*  ! deleterey?  Hmmm... yes extra chars help ' > : 					! force delete to be picked up + > : 					!overriding goofy delete settings.  >  > : 	Or the more common for me:  >  > : 	$ delete = "delete" > : 	$ delete *.tmp_scratch;*  > C > Another nicety in ksh ... to avoid aliases for various commands,  A > you only need to precede the command with a "\".  That allows a B > one-time execution of the actual, unaliased command without dis-6 > turbing the alias should any donstream code need it. >  > -- Mike Zarlenga  = DCL on RSTS/E has "_" to prevent command symbol substitution.   % For example "$ _copy foo.dat bar.dat" . does a copy even if "copy" has been redefined.  = I think this syntax is by analogy to _DEV: inhibiting logical ; name translation, which applies to both VMS and RSTS/E DCL.   8 I always wondered why this was never implemented on VMS,7 although it would break anything that defined a command = symbol named "_something", which is legal (or at least works) % on VMS.  (E.G. "$ _copy := dir/size")    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Jan 2002 01:55:27 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC- Message-ID: <87vgenp94g.fsf@prep.synonet.com>c  4 Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes:   > Peter da Silva wrote:e  7 > > In article <a0nkqn$4mn$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>,r: > > Bill Pechter <pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:  I > > >Difficulties were in wildcard handling (programs doing it in VAX/VMSaE > > >via a standard set of functions) (Unix using shell expansion andcI > > >the fact that too many file names break Unix utilities -- cp * junk/tL > > >with a large directory blows stuff up... the use of xargs was a shocker? > > >since it's not easily apparent why it would be necessary.)   H > > That's not the utility breaking, it's the command line length limit.  I > > These days you'd have to have a bloody big directory to blow that up.c  A > I can't count the number of times I've run into that limit withoC > modern systems. HP/UX, AIX, Solaris, you name it - all within theP# > last year, with current versions.c  G I just hit it this evening. Looking for a post... Grepping the news dirlA is a total loss. Oh well, time to move a copy of them all to VMS!l     -- P< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:28:05 GMTk1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>R: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C30F528.AFA9E64A@fsi.net>l   Peter da Silva wrote:e > [snip]O > Well, I don't have a perfect answer... but I would say that when you're usingML > a UNIX system, learn the UNIX way of doing things. When you're using a VMS, > system, learn the VMS way of doing things.  E Don't think I ever said anything to the contrary, though I do have myd
 "wish lists".l   -- f David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:33:33 GMTR1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C30F670.2D08F0C1@fsi.net>o   Peter da Silva wrote:  > 7 > In article <3C2FCB71.7815AB6A@bartek.dontspamme.net>,w6 > Arthur Krewat  <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> wrote: > >Peter da Silva wrote:J > >> These days you'd have to have a bloody big directory to blow that up. > B > >I can't count the number of times I've run into that limit withD > >modern systems. HP/UX, AIX, Solaris, you name it - all within the$ > >last year, with current versions. > , > You must have some bloody big directories.  E I believe I recall a post in comp.os.vms about some app. that created)E some 500,000 files a day. Maybe it's only 50,000 or something, but ite *WAS* an outrageous number.e   -- ( David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemsf http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:36:13 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C30F710.B7917CFC@fsi.net>m   Paul Repacholi wrote:s > 6 > Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes: >  > > Peter da Silva wrote:  > 9 > > > In article <a0nkqn$4mn$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>,e< > > > Bill Pechter <pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote: > K > > > >Difficulties were in wildcard handling (programs doing it in VAX/VMSfG > > > >via a standard set of functions) (Unix using shell expansion andlK > > > >the fact that too many file names break Unix utilities -- cp * junk/lN > > > >with a large directory blows stuff up... the use of xargs was a shockerA > > > >since it's not easily apparent why it would be necessary.)H > J > > > That's not the utility breaking, it's the command line length limit. > K > > > These days you'd have to have a bloody big directory to blow that up.  > C > > I can't count the number of times I've run into that limit witheE > > modern systems. HP/UX, AIX, Solaris, you name it - all within then% > > last year, with current versions.h > I > I just hit it this evening. Looking for a post... Grepping the news dirdC > is a total loss. Oh well, time to move a copy of them all to VMS!   C I'd likely try writing a script to overcome that, so files could ben processed one at a time.   --   David J. Dachterad dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:48:54 -0500 ( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECB Message-ID: <20011231184532.B20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  - On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, David J. Dachtera wrote:X   >nG > I believe I recall a post in comp.os.vms about some app. that createdvG > some 500,000 files a day. Maybe it's only 50,000 or something, but itf > *WAS* an outrageous number.   D I don't know enough about the internals of VMS but if this were on aC Unix system I still wouldn't put them all in one directory. I woulddG break them up by hour or even smaller increments if necessary.  I wouldtD expect that a simple linear traverse of a directory on VMS would getD less and less practical just as it would on Unix as the size of that directory grew.g   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:50:41 -0500 ( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECB Message-ID: <20011231184903.X20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  - On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, David J. Dachtera wrote:m   >eE > I'd likely try writing a script to overcome that, so files could beg > processed one at a time. >o  : The nice thing about Unix is they already thought of that:?    find "some_directory" -type f -exec grep "some_string" {} \;s   bill   -- ,J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 00:37:09 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C310556.DFD5D97B@fsi.net>e   Peter da Silva wrote:a > ) > In article <3C2E9C1C.64718678@fsi.net>,r2 > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:Q > >> >> >How do I get a shell to check/verify command line options and values (ifh, > >> >> >any) before it invokes the program? > ( > >> >> This doesn't make sense on UNIX, > B > >> >Why not? (I suspect the answer may be "for legacy reasons".) > P > >> Because UNIX has a completely different command line model than VMS. A UNIXN > >> command line is an array of strings, not a structured language construct. > I > >Exactly my point. Other than placing itself between the kernel and thetE > >programmer, teh shell does little or nothing you can't do yourselfa > >(without the shell).. > K > Since that's exactly what it's supposed to do, and very little more, whatlL > *is* your point? DCL is a procedural programming language (albeit one withL > fairly primitive control structures) that sometimes runs external programsH > to perform commands. The UNIX shell is a nearly functional programmingJ > language that primarily controls the dataflow between external programs.  G ...and DCL is not? You've never seen a truly sophisticated DCL "script"E then.B  N > This model turns out to be extraordinarily powerful, and allows you to buildO > quite sophisticated programs out of simple components. It's nothing like DCL, L > and looking at features of DCL and trying to find them in the shell, or toI > criticise the shell for lacking them, is like complaining that your newlG > minivan doesn't come equipped with a movie theatre and grocery store.3 > K > >...but the original poster was comparing DCL to the scripting languages,bE > >not the external utilities they may invoke. Important distinction.n > I > The original poster was talking about the ease of programming using the L > UNIX shell compared to using DCL. Since you can't do anything in the shell > without external programs,    C It would probably be more accurate to say that the shell, under the E direction of a script, controls how those external programs are used.bF The actual "scripting" capability comes from the shell, not the CUSPs.E Hence, the importance of the distinction between the shell itself and 
 the CUSPs.  2 > it should be obvious to the most naive observer,H > at least at this late date in the discussion, that this distinction isI > purely an invention of yours and not something intended by the original.	 > poster.-   Obviously, I cannot agree.  H You may want to read in O'Reilly's "UNIX in a nutshell" by Daniel Gilly:F in Chapter 4 starting near the bottom of page 4-12, the section titled@ "Built-in Commands (Bourne and Korn Shell)" (ISBN 1-56592-001-5)  > The difference between internal and external commands was evenH documented in the MS-DOS documentation, usually in the discussion of the PATH environment variable. t  G There are(were) other VMS CLIs besides DCL, few and obscure as they mayWG be (may have been). The difference between an external and a cliroutine.B does not become apparent until one begins to study the DCL commandG tables in depth. See http://www.djesys.com/vms/freevms/proglist.txt for  some examples.  E So, no, I did not "invent" this distinction. It is possible, however,ZG that my understanding of it may be deeper than (or different from) yourn own.  M > >> >> the DCL implementations on UNIX. You might as well ask how you chroot1 > >> >> in VMS.t > 
 > >> >Simple:c< > >> >$ DEFINE/EXEC/SYSTEM SYS$SYSTEM new_path_specification > = > >> What happens if you access DUA0: directly at this point?  > < > >Yes. It's still MOUNTed and available. What's your point? > 8 > Then you haven't performed the equivalent of a chroot. > G > Chroot completely replaces the user-level view of the entire file andrJ > device namespace with the newly constructed subset. If I haven't mounted, > da0s2 in that namespace, it's not visible.  F I believe part that may have been snipped from that same post may haveE gone on to say the the idea of a filesystem "root" does not translatem@ directly to VMS. Essentially, each RVN-1 has an MFD (Master File1 Directory) and each such MFD is a volume "root". a  ) So, the discussion is irrelevant, anyway.i  P > >> >> >How do I get the shell to open/process an indexed file (i.e., do C-ISAM > >> >> >the way DCL does RMS)?a > , > >> >> You call a utility program to do it. > < > >> >Then, the external program is doing it, not the shell. > . > >> Again, you can not make that distinction. >   > >You not only can, you *MUST*! >  > Must I? Why?   Read on.  3D > >Try this: find a way to "break" the path to your utility programsK > >(clobber the PATH, rename /bin to /binbin, or whatever). Now can you "lsDF > >*"? (No.) Can you "echo *"? (Yes.) So, yes, the concept of commandsG > >which are "internal" to the shell vs. those which are not is vitallyt
 > >important.o > H > But why stop there. Let's unmount all the devices, format all the fileJ > systems, and overwrite all the open shared libraries in memory! Hey, now > you can't do anything!  + ...but you haven't proved anything, either.s  D > I completely fail to see why the behaviour of a system that you'veF > deliberately broken has any bearing on the utility of the shell as a, > scripting environment on a working system.  F Then ask yourself: do the CUSPs (Commonly Used System Programs) behaveH differently depending on which shell (read: scripting facility) is used?  
 Get it *NOW*?o   -- m David J. DachteraM dba DJE Systemsw http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/s   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 00:47:41 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>m: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C3107D0.EE2FDDB4@fsi.net>    "Carl R. Friend" wrote:  >  > Peter da Silva wrote:X > > ; > > [...] The UNIX shell is a nearly functional programminguB > > language that primarily controls the dataflow between external
 > > programs.t > > = > > This model turns out to be extraordinarily powerful [...]' > - >    Something here smells a lot like JCL....e   ...not to mention DCL!   -- i David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsg http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 00:54:48 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C31097A.8DEB4909@fsi.net>c   Michael Zarlenga wrote:  > A > In comp.os.vms David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:-< > :> Just its ability to do functions which return values is= > :> worth a lot.  In DCL the next best thing we have is CALL < > :> but then you have to set global variable to communicate& > :> return values back to the caller. > B > : Use GOSUB instead then. You can't pass parameters on the GOSUBK > : statement, but all local and global symbols are "visible" regardless of0I > : the GOSUB depth. CALL is like "@" - it creates a new procedure depth.. > : > The benefits of functions come directly from the ability< > to have calling arguments and return values, otherwise, we5 > would all just use global variables and gotos in C.   F In Macro (VAX Assembler - its a "3"GL on Alpha, sort of), you push theH address or value of an argument or the address of an argument block ontoG the stack, then branch to the subroutine (usually via a CALLG, CALLS or 	 similar).    < > :> Toss in the ability to include other .ksh code into theA > :> current .ksh program as code and you have a much more power-  > :> ful scripting language. > > > : Can you provide an example? Your explanation is confusing. >  > . mystuff.kshR  F I'm sure that means something to well-seasoned UN*X folks. I'll need aE deeper explanation of the mechanism before it completely makes sense.r   --   David J. Dachterab dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2001 20:08:05 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)$: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <51WnEcO+Ho+$@eisner.encompasserve.org>   m In article <20011231184532.B20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>, Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> writes: / > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, David J. Dachtera wrote:e >  >>H >> I believe I recall a post in comp.os.vms about some app. that createdH >> some 500,000 files a day. Maybe it's only 50,000 or something, but it >> *WAS* an outrageous number. > F > I don't know enough about the internals of VMS but if this were on aE > Unix system I still wouldn't put them all in one directory. I would I > break them up by hour or even smaller increments if necessary.  I wouldbF > expect that a simple linear traverse of a directory on VMS would getF > less and less practical just as it would on Unix as the size of that > directory grew.   @ I talked to somebody from DEC once who knew how to solve this in. some future version of VMS (or so he thought).  A Priority of such a fix is debatable, since people who write large D applications know how to avoid such issues, regardless of what their" primary operating system might be.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 03:49:52 GMTp( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a0rbl0$22f9$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  / In article <3C30D631.DBBB6044@ne.mediaone.net>, 2 Monty Brandenberg  <mcbinc@ne.mediaone.net> wrote: >Peter da Silva wrote:7 >> What on earth does X have to do with UNIX scripting?t  > >And why do you think that CDE is synonymous with X or are non' >sequiturs and red herrings your forte?f  A Um, CDE is a set of X applications. How do you use CDE without X?m   >The components thatB >work as I said have nothing to do with X but with the applicationA >framework and so are intrinsically tied to execution environmentp >not windowing environment.r  G Perhaps you might deign to explain exactly what it is that CDE is doingiH that requires the behaviour in question, and touch on why they can't useG X resources and other mechanisms to pass information between X clients,w2 rather than attempting an argument from authority?   -- a@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)a   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 03:58:43 GMT ( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a0rc5j$22oq$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  ' In article <3C310556.DFD5D97B@fsi.net>,a0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: >Peter da Silva wrote:L >> Since that's exactly what it's supposed to do, and very little more, whatM >> *is* your point? DCL is a procedural programming language (albeit one withdM >> fairly primitive control structures) that sometimes runs external programseI >> to perform commands. The UNIX shell is a nearly functional programmingIK >> language that primarily controls the dataflow between external programs.i   >...and DCL is not?u  ; Um, no. DCL is a procedural language, not a functional one.'  J >> The original poster was talking about the ease of programming using theM >> UNIX shell compared to using DCL. Since you can't do anything in the shelln >> without external programs,   D >It would probably be more accurate to say that the shell, under theF >direction of a script, controls how those external programs are used.   And your point is?  G >The actual "scripting" capability comes from the shell, not the CUSPs.3  I The scripting capability comes from the use of the shell to combine pipesB+ and filters. It doesn't exist without both.r  H >> Chroot completely replaces the user-level view of the entire file andK >> device namespace with the newly constructed subset. If I haven't mounted - >> da0s2 in that namespace, it's not visible.n  G >I believe part that may have been snipped from that same post may havelF >gone on to say the the idea of a filesystem "root" does not translate >directly to VMS.e  H That doesn't mean you couldn't theoretically perform the equivalent of a9 chroot, by overlaying new mappings over things like DUA0:   E >> >Try this: find a way to "break" the path to your utility programsrL >> >(clobber the PATH, rename /bin to /binbin, or whatever). Now can you "lsG >> >*"? (No.) Can you "echo *"? (Yes.) So, yes, the concept of commands-H >> >which are "internal" to the shell vs. those which are not is vitally >> >important.  I >> But why stop there. Let's unmount all the devices, format all the fileDK >> systems, and overwrite all the open shared libraries in memory! Hey, now  >> you can't do anything!e  , >...but you haven't proved anything, either.   Neither have you.k  E >> I completely fail to see why the behaviour of a system that you'veeG >> deliberately broken has any bearing on the utility of the shell as an- >> scripting environment on a working system.s  G >Then ask yourself: do the CUSPs (Commonly Used System Programs) behave I >differently depending on which shell (read: scripting facility) is used?   G I imagine some might. Certainly the way you use them is going to differnK slightly if you have a pure shell (like rc or the Bourne shell) or a hybridtH like csh or bash. And programs like tset examine $SHELL and change their behaviour to match.h   >Get it *NOW*?   Nope.t   -- t@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans),   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 03:46:17 GMT ( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a0rbe9$22dr$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  - In article <87vgenp94g.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,.. Paul Repacholi  <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:H >I just hit it this evening. Looking for a post... Grepping the news dirB >is a total loss. Oh well, time to move a copy of them all to VMS!  0 find $SPOOL -type f -print | xargs grep $PATTERN   -- b@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)D   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2001 18:52:55 +0000  From: Adam Sampson <azz@gnu.org>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedse3 Message-ID: <873d1rusqg.fsf@cartman.azz.us-lot.org>o  + P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) writes:i  0 > Well, we have a 23 year old and a 35 year old.E > Anyone else want to join the party of folks wishing to use OpenVMS?e  @ Here's a 20-year-old Un*x-clone fan who'd like to at least _try_A OpenVMS, if only as a source of ideas on how to make my favouritet operating systems better.    --  H Adam Sampson <azz@gnu.org>                  <URL:http://azz.us-lot.org/>   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 03:03:57 GMT / From: "Richard McMullen" <rbmcmjr@adelphia.net>o9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds : Message-ID: <xG9Y7.208$gO5.129054@news1.news.adelphia.net>  3 David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messageo$ news:3C2FCE69.60801@tsoft-inc.com...  H > Run your favorite nuclear power station on windoz.  Don't worry if theH > reactor tries to go critical at the same time as the windoz system setD > up to handle such a condition is doing it's 'nightly' reboot.  :-) >f  F Not to be pedantic, but critical is the proper condition for a runningG nuclear plant.  All "critical" means is that the fission rate is steadyc (neglecting source issues).    Rick   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 05:17:35 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsn> Message-ID: <PDbY7.46443$Sj1.19314807@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C2D8C7A.DE94780C@swissonline.delete.ch...a >u > Just a few brief points ...o >h > the augur wrote: > >s > ....I > > The main point is that VMS makes money, it makes a good enough amountC. > > of money for any small-mid-large cap firm. >eE > Why doesn't Compaq do more to promote the use of VMS ?  What's yourf > thoughts ? >t  F As I said more than half a decade ago, "IT'S THE MARKETING, STUPID!!!"  K (No insinuation of cerebral short-circuits intended for any of the denizensr of these newsgroups)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:37:45 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>aY Subject: Re: Inquirer report: Hewlett proxy filing says PC losses barely covered by otherc+ Message-ID: <3C30DAA7.D03AB59@videotron.ca>o   VMS Fan wrote:H > "Mr H says that if Compaq's PC biz loses $704 and its other businessesA > produce profits of $936 million, that's only 1.3 times the losse  > generated by the PC business." > < > The article is at: http://www.theinquirer.net/31120103.htm  M But you see, from the Microsoft weenies' point of view, it is the other stuffmL that is hindering the profitability of the PC business.  And by combining HPN and Compaq's 2 sick PC businesses, they promise instant economies of scale andI better prices from suppliers which should make the PC business profitabled? again at which point they no longer need that old legacy stuff.i  L It isn't in Wall Street Casino's advantage to put down mergers. M&As provide' them with lots of work and commissions.d  A Of all the IT companies, Compaq is the best placed to know that aaN merger/acquisition takes a lot of time before any benefit (if any) is accrued.  K Buying Digital was a big mistake for Compaq because it brought in a product K set that Compaq wasn't interested in, it distracted Compaq and infected itsy: mindset with the same mentality that brought down Digital.  M The big difference in the HP acquisition of Compaq is that both HP and CompaqoL seem to have the same philosophy of downplaying non-wintel stuff and betting their business on Wintel.   J In the end, HP would have had a better chance at the merger if it had done: what American Airlines did to TWA: buy only certan assets.  : HP could have offered to buy Compaq's PC business, certainN manufacturing/distribution assets, and left Compaq with VMS, Tru64, Tandem andK Alpha. Such a Compaq would have had no allegiance to Microsoft or Intel and L would have kept Alpha going and would have been a profitable company, albeitE much smaller. I think that both customers and shareholders would have,H benefitted. And on the HP side, it wouldn't have paid for stuff it isn't. interested in (such as VMS, Tandem, Tru64 etc)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 03:27:59 GMTd  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>Y Subject: Re: Inquirer report: Hewlett proxy filing says PC losses barely covered by otherS+ Message-ID: <3C312CF4.3D0EC682@prodigy.net>t   JF Mezei wrote:t >  <snip>< > HP could have offered to buy Compaq's PC business, certainP > manufacturing/distribution assets, and left Compaq with VMS, Tru64, Tandem andM > Alpha. Such a Compaq would have had no allegiance to Microsoft or Intel andlN > would have kept Alpha going and would have been a profitable company, albeitG > much smaller. I think that both customers and shareholders would havevJ > benefitted. And on the HP side, it wouldn't have paid for stuff it isn't0 > interested in (such as VMS, Tandem, Tru64 etc)  N Maybe HP should have swapped their own PC business for CPQ's non-Wintel stuff,
 even trade.  E  J Then CPQ could do the PC stuff they love on a grander scale, and HP could F focus on the Enterprise side and printers.  That might have even kept 
 Walter happy.y   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:51:35 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 LayoffsB Message-ID: <bl3Y7.402439$uB.38937025@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:jw0Y7.135$5Y4.2826@news.cpqcorp.net...o >y7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message > > news:k63X7.426574$8q.36130243@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > >tK > > >    There's even more worrying news for Compaq as sales of OpenVMS areaL > > >    also declining, with the blamesters at Qastle Qapellas pointing theB > > >    finger at poor marketeering and kow-towing to the bosses. > >lL > > I'm sure Fred will correct this misconception as soon as he returns fromK > > vacation, since he's already made it clear that recent events will onlyY > help# > > VMS's continuing 'renaissance'.h > >  >dF > What I've said is that IPF is not the end of the world, or VMS.  And indeedI > has a very large upside potential.  The period we are in before we haveDG > completed the port, and emerged from a serious economic downturn - is F > dangerous and unpredictable.  I've also said that despite it all, we# > continue to sell new VMS systems.t >eJ > But I'm sure that you are jumping in glee over the prospect of something badl9 > happening to VMS.  It is, after all, one of your goals.   K Nope.  Truth is one of my goals, which is why I pointed out the (admittedlyfI hearsay) corroboration above that VMS sales *are* in fact on the decline. H And I certainly want to see whatever is necessary happen to get Compaq'sJ upper management replaced.  But I wish VMS only the best (which is *why* IH want to see that management get the boot, even if the process of gettingL there may be temporarily uncomfortable for VMS and the rest of the company).   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 01:21:13 GMTw1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>-8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs' Message-ID: <3C310FAB.5AA2A057@fsi.net>u   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > 7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message4> > news:k63X7.426574$8q.36130243@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > K > > >    There's even more worrying news for Compaq as sales of OpenVMS areeL > > >    also declining, with the blamesters at Qastle Qapellas pointing theB > > >    finger at poor marketeering and kow-towing to the bosses. > >SL > > I'm sure Fred will correct this misconception as soon as he returns fromK > > vacation, since he's already made it clear that recent events will onlyr > help# > > VMS's continuing 'renaissance'.o > >/ > M > What I've said is that IPF is not the end of the world, or VMS.  And indeedrI > has a very large upside potential.  The period we are in before we havevG > completed the port, and emerged from a serious economic downturn - iscF > dangerous and unpredictable.  I've also said that despite it all, we# > continue to sell new VMS systems.s    An as yet unsubstantiated claim.  N > But I'm sure that you are jumping in glee over the prospect of something bad9 > happening to VMS.  It is, after all, one of your goals.e  2 How little you understand Bill, myself and others.  4 Our goal is *NOT* to see anything bad happen to VMS.  F Our goal is to *PREVENT* any further bad things happening to VMS. This3 is why we try to show Compaq the error of its ways.e   -- n David J. Dachtera. dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:14:23 -0500(- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> * Subject: Re: Too Few Servers opcom message, Message-ID: <3C30D52E.5567B1B4@videotron.ca>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:M > You have familiarity with DECnet IV.  If you didn't, how would DECnet IV bed > any easier that DECnet V?    DECNET 4 :  H Everything done through NCP, in a dynamic and permananent settings. Help- available right there for syntax of commands.e  
 DECNET5 : L Dynamic stuff done in NCL, but permanent stuff, you must use an editor, findI the right file where you can make your changes/additions and then hope it L works next time you reboot. (there is no equivalent of LIST and SHOW in NCL,T whereas in DECNET4, you can verify both permanent and dynamic configs are the same).  M As I had said before, I had no problems without printed doc getting a decnet5rJ node to talk to decnet4.  The problems were in figuring out how everythingL worked so that you knew where to put fine tuning commands (such as the stuff& to remove those pesky opcom messages).   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:44:46 GMTt* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>P Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if mergerB Message-ID: <Oe3Y7.175943$Zd.16124938@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:5k0wiKPWGPEU@eisner.encompasserve.org...i   ...w  G > I pay $13 per month for 56K dialup, gets the job done.  $55 per monthoI > is for most folks a tad on the expense side (not overly so).  ComparingoH > 56K access I believe we are cheaper but haven't taken time to research  > it.  Is that a fair statement?  D Cable access isn't bad either, at least where we live in NH.  We payK $35/month for 512 Kb/s download/128 Kb/s upload (would be $45 if we weren't K also getting cable TV), which is less than we paid for 56 Kb dial-up plus al second 'phone line.p   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 23:18:43 GMTn7 From: trevor.osatchuk@nospam.pscl.com (Trevor Osatchuk)aP Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger5 Message-ID: <3c30eac0.971619414@news.telusplanet.net>g  F On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:44:46 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:   >n9 >"Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message:. >news:5k0wiKPWGPEU@eisner.encompasserve.org... >a >... >wH >> I pay $13 per month for 56K dialup, gets the job done.  $55 per monthJ >> is for most folks a tad on the expense side (not overly so).  ComparingI >> 56K access I believe we are cheaper but haven't taken time to researchw! >> it.  Is that a fair statement?t > E >Cable access isn't bad either, at least where we live in NH.  We payxL >$35/month for 512 Kb/s download/128 Kb/s upload (would be $45 if we weren'tL >also getting cable TV), which is less than we paid for 56 Kb dial-up plus a >second 'phone line.  C Up here in Edmonton, AB Canada I am paying $39.00 cdn.(also cheaperaB becuse I have cable from SHAW as well as highspeed)  This is aboutB $25.50 U.S(today's exchange rate)  Less than half of what is beingC paid in Europe.  I would say that I am getting a better deal.  If IiD were paying $55 U.S.($80.00 cdn) I would seriously think about going+ back to dialup.(The horror, the horror.. :)    >m >- billa >g >o >P   Trevor Osatchukj  ? Any man whose errors take ten years to correct is quite a man.  ?           - J. Robert Oppenheimer, speaking of Albert Einstein D   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:30:11 +1100d, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedg8 Message-ID: <vg723u0a48f1omcv05klf3tnc27iuaoejt@4ax.com>  F On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:18:43 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  E >Note that there really isn't any free windoz.  Nothing to match the a >hobbyist program.     Rubbish.& Hobbyists never pay for their windows.D I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of windows users I( have met who actually paid for their OS.  F My neighbour is a good example. He says that he has used every version8 of windows from 3.0 onwards and has never bought the OS.E I think that he is running XP Pro now. He tells me that he downloadedhD it from the net 2 days after "it went gold" and months before it was released in the shops here.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:31:48 -0500e% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>mY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceedsr/ Message-ID: <u31f97avcn2r55@news.supernews.com>v  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C302C49.1FF50D8F@swissonline.delete.ch...i >h [snip]D > I heard a story some time ago that at about NT 4 the whole layeredF > access system (like VMS's user-supervisor-exec-kernel) was broken soJ > that software for games could directly access hardware devices and henceG > make the games run faster.  If that is someone's idea of security and  > reliability .... >s* > Can anyone shed any more light on this ? >e  I This is a red herring (and you have the story slightly wrong).  In NT V4, L the graphics subsystem was moved into the kernel.  Prior to that it ran as aL separate process.  So in V4 it's running in kernel mode and prior to that itH was running in user mode.  Some people like to throw this up as a changeK that made NT less reliable because if the graphics subsystem has a problem, F it crashes the whole system since it's now running in kernel mode.  InL reality, it had very little affect on the reliability of NT because in V3.x,I if the graphics subsystem died the kernel would notice and force a system> crash.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:34:48 -0500g( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceedsgB Message-ID: <20011231143102.K20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  ' On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, John McLean wrote:    >  >dD > I heard a story some time ago that at about NT 4 the whole layeredF > access system (like VMS's user-supervisor-exec-kernel) was broken soJ > that software for games could directly access hardware devices and henceG > make the games run faster.  If that is someone's idea of security ando > reliability .... >g* > Can anyone shed any more light on this ?  B I think you were told wrong.  It was precisely at NT 4.0 that manyC previoulsy supported devices became paper-weights for precisely theuF opposite reason.  The addition of the HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer)F made directly twiddling the hardware un-doable.  Things that relied onG doing this (serious things, not games) like anything using the paralleliC port for anything other than a printer (like Iomega Tape Drives and @ Connectix Eyeball Cameras) all lost their support at that point.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2001 13:04:46 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)U3 Message-ID: <GrbERkRJAgEo@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  o In article <Ay2Y7.104720$m05.9147577@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:e > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:R+yGfa9Q78Bs@eisner.encompasserve.org...r >  > ...t >  >> We kicked around 4 processormH >> Itanium versus 4 processor Alpha and the Dell Itanium is considerablyD >> cheaper (16 GBytes of RAM).  Of course the argument then turns to? >> performance capability and yes, they are still a ways apart.i > K > You're still being a tad disingenuous about comparative pricing, which iseI > why you had to specify a large complement of RAM to make the differencee > significant.    B 	Worse.  significant none-the-less, not in spite of or because of.  ? > Compaq elects to mark up RAM far more than Dell does, but as tL > others have pointed out you can purchase equal-quality Alpha RAM elsewhereN > for Dell-like prices and thereby bring the 4-processor Alpha price (with itsH > significantly-greater performance) much closer to the 4-processor Dell > price. >   > 	Okay... and left un-exploited in that whole back and forth is@ 	the fact you can skip DELL memory and go third party and pay a C 	lot less.  I was *simply* pointing out OEMed boxes line up thusly.l  M > From the beginning Intel has claimed that one major reason for getting intodI > the 64-bit space was to enjoy higher margins than it can command in theeM > commodity IA32 space.  While IA64 system prices *may* eventually drop belowtJ > Alpha prices for systems of comparable capability, one should not expectH > them to approach commodity IA32 pricing:  even IA32 Xeon systems don'tK > approach commodity IA32 pricing, and one can expect the same of any otherS > system of comparable quality.t >   ? 	Prices are lower and that is why the argument *quickly* shifts! 	to capabilities.o   				Roba   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:06:56 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds):B Message-ID: <kH2Y7.294044$C8.21511592@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:3JDzjJP+cmoY@eisner.encompasserve.org...CC > In article <jj8u2uc0pm8f22ud0cp2sh7bnmaj2on9hg@4ax.com>, drsquarei <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:l >e > >e7 > > What actually makes VMS any better than other OSes?t > >w >h > A real filesystem.  H That hasn't been a significant differentiator for a long time.  Veritas'L VxFS has been around for a decade, SGI's XFS is about 7 years old, IBM's JFSJ a bit older, and all qualify as very credible competitors to ODS-2 (as mayH Tru64's AdvFS, though I've heard a couple of disturbing recovery storiesJ about it; we can discuss RMS's strengths and weaknesses separately, if you5 want, since it's not part of the file system per se).   K Now, if you had said 'a real *cluster* file system', you would have been onaD much firmer ground, at least until much more recently.  But that's a@ cluster-specific advantage, not a generic file system advantage.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 19:23:29 GMTc* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)iB Message-ID: <QW2Y7.463648$8q.39129571@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  J "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A07554.1F58CEE2@SendSpamHere.ORG...   ...n  ) > VMS has, for a decade now, been runningtG > on the best and perhaps the only successful 64 bit platform -- Alpha.e  K I'll gladly go along with 'best' (though POWER4 is becoming a very credibleuI competitor), but Power is certainly a 'successful' general-purpose 64-bit E platform and PA-RISC, MIPS, and SPARC have reasonable claims to being  'successful' as well.l   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2001 20:45:31 +0100& From: bds@rzg.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e+ Message-ID: <a0qf8rINNgn6@subds.rzg.mpg.de>-  8 In article <t0au2u0dfakim4jv5lqqt4b0uhghktgq50@4ax.com>,. israel r t  <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:3 >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:37:45 +0000 (UTC), drsquareC ><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:  >sL >>No, I'm serious. Surely if it was that good, people would use it. At leastI >>people who know what they're doing would. Is it heniously expensive andi >>difficult or something?  >p >Marketed dismally >Priced ridiculously' >Available only on proprietary hardware 2 >Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC): >Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq), >Learnt only by people now in their fifties. >h  >But it is more stable than Unix >More secure than Unix >More user friendly than Unixi >More clusterable than Unix. >S	 >But ....r >It is dying...   B Easily the best example that the survival of a good product in theG Corporate Monopoly economy is not guaranteed.  VMS is what prevented meeG from moving to Unix in the mid 1980s.  It is absolutely the easiest andmC best CLI system ever invented.  But it has never been affordable to- individuals.  E The biggest backward step I ever took by moving from one institute touE another was losing VMS in favor of IBM batch job control language and3- that horrible monstrosity that was (is?) CMS.o   -- F cu,l Brucee  3 drift wave turbulence:  http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/j   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2001 20:47:43 +0100& From: bds@rzg.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)w+ Message-ID: <a0qfcvINNgnq@subds.rzg.mpg.de>r  8 In article <vv7v2ukf22jl1dk4l1c9nf4nrsidrt2udj@4ax.com>,( drsquare  <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:? >On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:35:22 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,e1 > (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote:  >u4 >>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC), drsquare  >><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote: >> >>>>Marketed dismallyg >>>>Priced ridiculouslyd* >>>>Available only on proprietary hardware5 >>>>Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)e= >>>>Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq)p/ >>>>Learnt only by people now in their fifties.i >>>># >>>>But it is more stable than Unixa >>>>More secure than Unixe  >>>>More user friendly than Unix >>>>More clusterable than Unix.' >>>eL >>>Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware.  >> >>Unfortunately true., >>H >>If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, LinuxA >>NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CD   > >> ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box. >>G >>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about asi* >>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) .... > 5 >Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?f  E It is too much thankless work, and there is already Linux (hint: thattE constellation of opportunity was only available once; we're just damn0D lucky it was taken advantage of by several someones as competent and scrupulous as RMS and LT).   -- C cu,  Bruceg  3 drift wave turbulence:  http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/u   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:10:39 GMTo( From: "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)CI Message-ID: <3D3Y7.207874$WW.12063781@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>s  3 "Bruce Scott TOK" <bds@rzg.mpg.de> wrote in messageo% news:a0qf8rINNgn6@subds.rzg.mpg.de...s: > In article <t0au2u0dfakim4jv5lqqt4b0uhghktgq50@4ax.com>,0 > israel r t  <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:5 > >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:37:45 +0000 (UTC), drsquarer! > ><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:a > >cH > >>No, I'm serious. Surely if it was that good, people would use it. At least K > >>people who know what they're doing would. Is it heniously expensive andr > >>difficult or something?o > >n > >Marketed dismally > >Priced ridiculously) > >Available only on proprietary hardwares4 > >Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)< > >Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq). > >Learnt only by people now in their fifties. > > " > >But it is more stable than Unix > >More secure than Unix > >More user friendly than Unixu > >More clusterable than Unix. > >  > >But ....N > >It is dying...  > D > Easily the best example that the survival of a good product in theI > Corporate Monopoly economy is not guaranteed.  VMS is what prevented me I > from moving to Unix in the mid 1980s.  It is absolutely the easiest andiE > best CLI system ever invented.  But it has never been affordable to  > individuals. >-G > The biggest backward step I ever took by moving from one institute toeG > another was losing VMS in favor of IBM batch job control language ande/ > that horrible monstrosity that was (is?) CMS.i  1 P'shaw. Use VSE then tell me how horrible CMS is.a  - I will kill the person who wrote that system.C   > -- > cu,n > Brucet > 5 > drift wave turbulence:  http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/,   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 21:37:00 +0000 (UTC) & From: drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)n8 Message-ID: <uam13u4sd2c27sj6f37osdddb376j4n44i@4ax.com>  < On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:22:47 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,A  (system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)) wrote:o  b >In article <vv7v2ukf22jl1dk4l1c9nf4nrsidrt2udj@4ax.com>, drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes: >o >>>Unfortunately true. >>>rI >>>If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, LinuxoB >>>NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CD  ? >>> ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box.3 >>> H >>>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about as+ >>>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....t >>6 >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware? >@K >That's it!  Take a 64 bit OS and port it back to a 32 bit (I'd rather con-  >sider it a 2 bit ;) processor.n  " Surely it can't be that difficult.   -- 11               ..        ..                  .'    0              '         '     .'            '    0     ':''.':':'':':''.':''.  :   :'':':''.':''.  0      : .'.' '..: : .' : .' : ''.'..: :..' : .'  0     :         :  :          '..'  :             0    :         :  :                :              0  .'        .' .'               .'                  ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 13:39:28 -0800 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>pY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e) Message-ID: <3C30DB10.30F01457@rdrop.com>@   drsquare wrote:e > > > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:44:59 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,. >  ("Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com>) wrote: > 6 > >"drsquare" <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in message5 > >news:vv7v2ukf22jl1dk4l1c9nf4nrsidrt2udj@4ax.com...t > > 9 > >> Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?g > >n5 > >Because it's owned by Compaq and not open-sourced.  > ) > Why doesn't someone else write a clone?   G Great! A volunteer! Go to http://www.freevms.org/ and pick a project...e   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 22:09:24 GMTh( From: "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) I Message-ID: <om5Y7.317995$W8.12013192@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C30DDF0.519CC83D@videotron.ca... > Joe the Aroma wrote:5 > > P'shaw. Use VSE then tell me how horrible CMS is.a > >u1 > > I will kill the person who wrote that system.i >sJ > I kinda liked VM/CMS. It had a pretty good editor (EDGAR?) (for a 3270). CoolL > virtual disks. SPF/ISPF/whatever the name is this year was IBM's answer toK > ALL-IN-1 (except it is older than ALL-IN-1, except for its lack of email,o itD > also had its forms handler, scripts, etc. Not quite as powerful as ALL-IN-1F > though, especially with regards to generating files from templates). >rL > Now, I still remember that one friday afternoon when a female employee got upL > on her desk and shouted to the whole area "who the **** decided they couldI > write their data between tracks XXXX and YYYY on disk ZZZ ? That was myV data) > that was there (in a very angry voice).o >0E > (that was under VSE before these folks bought the VSAM package that  profidedE > actual files/datasets under VSE where programmers were then able ton
 allocate aK > file without first requesting from the systems people to allocate them anh area > on the disk).n  G Well, VSE is the OS that reminds me that some companies deserve to losetI business (everytime I see that IBM is losing X marketshare or X dollars I  have a good hard laugh).  H It's funny cause we have VSE programmers where I work who actually thinkG it's a good system. I want to slap them in the face everytime I have tos= manually do these commands that I could've put in a script in  Windows/UNIX/VMS.-  C It's really sad when people don't recognize their own obsolescence.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 22:13:23 GMT ( From: "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)iI Message-ID: <7q5Y7.318001$W8.12013754@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>l  3 "drsquare" <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in message 2 news:uam13u4sd2c27sj6f37osdddb376j4n44i@4ax.com...> > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:22:47 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,C >  (system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)) wrote:  >aD > >In article <vv7v2ukf22jl1dk4l1c9nf4nrsidrt2udj@4ax.com>, drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:o > >e > >>>Unfortunately true. > >>> K > >>>If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, LinuxhB > >>>NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CDA > >>> ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box.  > >>>oJ > >>>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about as- > >>>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....h > >>8 > >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware? > >cH > >That's it!  Take a 64 bit OS and port it back to a 32 bit (I'd rather con-! > >sider it a 2 bit ;) processor., >f$ > Surely it can't be that difficult.  ( Without the source code it's impossible.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 22:43:59 GMTg% From: rw@eircom.net (Russell Wallace)dY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)d0 Message-ID: <3c30e92b.584827280@news.eircom.net>  E On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:06:47 GMT, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> wrote:d  J >How come he thinks VMS is going to die??  I think it is too important an K >operating system to just vanish over night.  At least the port of OpenVMS w+ >to Itanium will help keep it going strong.d   Will it?  D You're assuming IA64 will succeed despite its flaws. I'm not so sure about that at all.  A I posted a more detailed argument on comp.arch (look for "Intel's C 64-bit strategy" there if you're interested) but the summary: VMS'sp6 best survival strategy may not be with IA64 after all.   -- e3 "Pity for the guilty is treachery to the innocent."o mailto:rwallace@esatclear.ie! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace    ------------------------------    Date: 01 Jan 2002 02:44:36 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)r- Message-ID: <87n0zzp6uj.fsf@prep.synonet.com>o  * "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com> writes:  N > In a similiar note, any OS that uses 'anal' as one of it's commands is ok in
 > my book!  ) And goes 'sin=yes' improve its rating? ;)|   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.p@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 00:26:53 +0000 (UTC)& From: drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds).8 Message-ID: <c4023u0962tflimsdlv7o3rtnlkj1p07je@4ax.com>  < On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 22:13:23 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,,  ("Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com>) wrote:  4 >"drsquare" <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in message3 >news:uam13u4sd2c27sj6f37osdddb376j4n44i@4ax.com...s >lL >> >>>If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, LinuxC >> >>>NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CDfB >> >>> ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box. >> >>>K >> >>>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about ase. >> >>>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) .... >> >>a9 >> >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?e >> >I >> >That's it!  Take a 64 bit OS and port it back to a 32 bit (I'd rathers >con-h" >> >sider it a 2 bit ;) processor. >>% >> Surely it can't be that difficult.e >c) >Without the source code it's impossible.    Can't someone clone it then?   -- l1               ..        ..                  .'   i0              '         '     .'            '    0     ':''.':':'':':''.':''.  :   :'':':''.':''.  0      : .'.' '..: : .' : .' : ''.'..: :..' : .'  0     :         :  :          '..'  :             0    :         :  :                :              0  .'        .' .'               .'                  ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:34:06 -0800v% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>cY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)a) Message-ID: <3C3103FE.4BE4D1B4@rdrop.com>    drsquare wrote:u >  > Can't someone clone it then?   a) See my previous post...D b) If you don't understand what you're saying, I can't explain it to you.   ------------------------------    Date: 31 Dec 2001 20:05:08 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)eY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)c3 Message-ID: <Af6+zakiWs3S@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  t In article <7q5Y7.318001$W8.12013754@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com> writes: > 5 > "drsquare" <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in messager4 > news:uam13u4sd2c27sj6f37osdddb376j4n44i@4ax.com...? >> On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:22:47 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,eD >>  (system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)) wrote: >>E >> >In article <vv7v2ukf22jl1dk4l1c9nf4nrsidrt2udj@4ax.com>, drsquareo! > <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:g >> > >> >>>Unfortunately true.n >> >>>L >> >>>If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, LinuxC >> >>>NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CDoB >> >>> ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box. >> >>>K >> >>>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about as-. >> >>>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) .... >> >>.9 >> >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?3 >> >I >> >That's it!  Take a 64 bit OS and port it back to a 32 bit (I'd rather: > con-" >> >sider it a 2 bit ;) processor. >>% >> Surely it can't be that difficult.- > * > Without the source code it's impossible.   Be quiet, Joe.  Let him try :-),   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:38:37 +11002, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) 8 Message-ID: <o7823us8rqapq5flvcds5je7kf87em2e8q@4ax.com>  2 On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:19:13 +0000 (UTC), drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:  G >>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about asl* >>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) .... > 5 >Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?2   Oh there is an Alpha port.2 But Alphas are about as common as camels in Aspen.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:40:59 +1100g, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)u8 Message-ID: <8b823u4vi8vjqe3lkbpusrgsou40gqqbu4@4ax.com>  F On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:06:07 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  F >Hardware?  It's all proprietary.  Manufacturers of CPUs include IBM, I >Compaq, HP, Intel, AMD, to name a few.  And, if you try to manufacturer MJ >any of those mentioned without authorization from the owner, prepare for 4 >the need of legal aid, which won't do you any good.  . Can Joe Bloggs get it free to run on his  P4 ? No ?   Then it is dead.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:42:05 +1100r, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)m8 Message-ID: <6e823u8icqgcvke80j2f3bgnffh1qqjeu5@4ax.com>  F On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:19:46 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:    B >I've got a few that would go rather cheap.  How many do you want?  6 Two ( in working condition and with the os installed )C I'd even pay 200 $ Australian each if you pay the shipping charges.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:43:35 +1100u, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) 8 Message-ID: <ug823uckmnr0hnnm4p7tmc8v38lfivqcen@4ax.com>  @ On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:56:17 GMT, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU. ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote:  J >In fairness, the GUI code in 2000 seems noticeably less fragile than the D >NT stuff; Netscape 4.7 never crashes my whole system the way it did >sporadically under NT.    Now for the good news.C XP Pro with all the latest patches is definetly less stable than NTh 4.0 service pack 6a.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 04:04:54 GMTe" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)y> Message-ID: <GzaY7.14288$726.5921929@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   Bill Todd wrote:   > 5 > "drsquare" <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in messager4 > news:ulpu2uc4vmedctpuhoh8npimt16hh3o5rj@4ax.com...A >> On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:46:44 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,>3 >>  (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote:h >>6 >> >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:37:45 +0000 (UTC), drsquare" >> ><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote: >> >I >> >>No, I'm serious. Surely if it was that good, people would use it. Ati > leastaL >> >>people who know what they're doing would. Is it heniously expensive and >> >>difficult or something? >> > >> >Marketed dismally  >> >Priced ridiculously * >> >Available only on proprietary hardware5 >> >Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)t= >> >Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq)d/ >> >Learnt only by people now in their fifties.o >> ># >> >But it is more stable than Unixe >> >More secure than Unixs  >> >More user friendly than Unix >> >More clusterable than Unix.s >>K >> Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware.m > K > 'Overpriced'?  Not noticeably, compared with similar Unix configurations, ? > and it consistently wins TCO comparisons with all contenders.a > K > 'Proprietary hardware'?  Not if you mean there's no second source (Intel,-H > IBM, and Samsung built Alpha processors and Alpha Processor Inc. built > entire systems). > J > I don't think you know much about VMS.  But that just makes you typical. >  > = That's ok Bill, drsquare peg doesn't know anything about VMS.r   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 04:06:00 GMTd" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e> Message-ID: <IAaY7.14289$726.5921952@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   drsquare wrote:   @ > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:35:22 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,2 >  (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote: > 4 >>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC), drsquare  >><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote: >> >>>>Marketed dismally) >>>>Priced ridiculouslye* >>>>Available only on proprietary hardware5 >>>>Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC) = >>>>Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq) / >>>>Learnt only by people now in their fifties.e >>>># >>>>But it is more stable than Unixr >>>>More secure than Unixo  >>>>More user friendly than Unix >>>>More clusterable than Unix.m >>>nK >>>Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary hardware.s >> >>Unfortunately true.h >>H >>If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux? >>NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CDg> >> ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box. >>G >>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about asr* >>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) .... > 6 > Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware? > % They have: its called CharonVAX (sp?)s   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 04:15:58 GMT0" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e> Message-ID: <2KaY7.14290$726.5922086@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:  K > In article <%FNX7.206214$WW.11965043@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,X, > "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com> writes: >>5 >>"drsquare" <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote in messageu4 >>news:vv7v2ukf22jl1dk4l1c9nf4nrsidrt2udj@4ax.com...B >>> On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:35:22 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,4 >>>  (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote: >>> 7 >>> >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC), drsquaree# >>> ><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:  >>> >, >>> >>>Marketed dismally >>> >>>Priced ridiculously- >>> >>>Available only on proprietary hardware>8 >>> >>>Owned by a clueless company that went broke (DEC)@ >>> >>>Bought by a clueless company that is going broke (Compaq)2 >>> >>>Learnt only by people now in their fifties. >>> >>>'& >>> >>>But it is more stable than Unix >>> >>>More secure than Unix# >>> >>>More user friendly than Unix " >>> >>>More clusterable than Unix. >>> >>D >>> >>Not much use when it's overpriced and available on proprietary >>> >>hardware.  >>> >  >>> >Unfortunately true. >>> > K >>> >If I want to try QNX , Inferno, BeOS (R.I.P ) , FreeBSD, NetBSD, Linux B >>> >NT, XP, WinME or Plan 9 at home all I have to do is grab a CDA >>> > ( usually free ) and install it onto the nearest Intel box.p >>> >cJ >>> >If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about as- >>> >common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....c > K > VMS has run on Alpha since 1993 or thereabouts.  I am currently logged inxJ > to my home VMS machine, which is a third-party Alpha workstation (boughtL > from Island Computers for about $1500), using the free EDU license for VMS > andjL > layered products including TCP/IP software, compilers, and other goodies. 5 > (I could also have used the free hobbyist license.)u > H > You can buy VAXes on eBAY pretty cheap, but you can buy Alphas on eBAY > pretty cheap too.v >  >>>n8 >>> Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware? >  >>4 >>Because it's owned by Compaq and not open-sourced. >>B > Compaq is porting it to Itanium and has made noises about sub-1k > workstationsJ > in a few years.  It's not completely clear that Itaniums are going to beJ > commodity hardware, though - there's an ongoing argument in comp.os.vms. > L Currently, IBM is producing an Itanium workstation but it costs around $15k.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:50:08 -0800s From: alt <alt@null>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) # Message-ID: <3C3107C0.7020406@null>e   John Vottero wrote:I  A  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in messagef2  > news:3C302C49.1FF50D8F@swissonline.delete.ch...  >	  > [snip]e  >F  >> I heard a story some time ago that at about NT 4 the whole layeredE  >> access system (like VMS's user-supervisor-exec-kernel) was brokeneE  >> so that software for games could directly access hardware devicesuC  >> and hence make the games run faster.  If that is someone's idea $  >> of security and reliability ....  >>Z,  >> Can anyone shed any more light on this ?  >>   >>   >E  > This is a red herring (and you have the story slightly wrong).  InaE  > NT V4, the graphics subsystem was moved into the kernel.  Prior to F  > that it ran as a separate process.  So in V4 it's running in kernelC  > mode and prior to that it was running in user mode.  Some people ?  > like to throw this up as a change that made NT less reliabletB  > because if the graphics subsystem has a problem, it crashes theF  > whole system since it's now running in kernel mode.  In reality, itF  > had very little affect on the reliability of NT because in V3.x, ifB  > the graphics subsystem died the kernel would notice and force a  > system crash.  >E That's pretty curious... They could have simply had a routine in the  E kernel to restart the graphics subsystem (and by extension, the user   space programs.)  G I personally think it was a bad thing that the moved the graphics from V% Ring 3 to Ring 0, but that's just me.   H I suspect this was a carry-over from OS/2 which could be booted without I the GUI running and which ran the graphics at Ring 3 (or optionally Ring wA 0... grr.. ati...) (Unless I'm mistaken from NT's roots in OS/2.).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 18:41:46 -0500m( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) B Message-ID: <20011231184018.Y20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  & On 31 Dec 2001, Bruce Scott TOK wrote:  G >                                                       we're just damnoF > lucky it was taken advantage of by several someones as competent and > scrupulous as RMS and LT).  E Did I miss the smiley??  Those are hardly the same adjectives I would  use to describe those two.   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:51:47 -0500-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>rY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) , Message-ID: <3C30DDF0.519CC83D@videotron.ca>   Joe the Aroma wrote:3 > P'shaw. Use VSE then tell me how horrible CMS is.  > / > I will kill the person who wrote that system.t  N I kinda liked VM/CMS. It had a pretty good editor (EDGAR?) (for a 3270).  CoolJ virtual disks. SPF/ISPF/whatever the name is this year was IBM's answer toL ALL-IN-1 (except it is older than ALL-IN-1, except for its lack of email, itK also had its forms handler, scripts, etc. Not quite as powerful as ALL-IN-1lD though, especially with regards to generating files from templates).  M Now, I still remember that one friday afternoon when a female employee got upiJ on her desk and shouted to the whole area "who the **** decided they couldL write their data between tracks XXXX and YYYY on disk ZZZ ? That was my data' that was there (in a very angry voice).n  L (that was under VSE before these folks bought the VSAM package that profidedN actual files/datasets under VSE where programmers were then able to allocate aN file without first requesting from the systems people to allocate them an area
 on the disk).    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 00:58:40 GMTo1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>rY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)9' Message-ID: <3C310A63.85F661F2@fsi.net>n   Paul Repacholi wrote:  > , > "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com> writes: > P > > In a similiar note, any OS that uses 'anal' as one of it's commands is ok in > > my book! > + > And goes 'sin=yes' improve its rating? ;)   F Kudos to Joe and Paul. My compliments on your punmanship. You are both cunning linguists.   -- S David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/M   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 01:02:41 GMTa1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>eY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) ' Message-ID: <3C310B54.3B560623@fsi.net>S   John McLean wrote: > [snip]A > PS.  I think many of us noticed back in the late 80's that goodaF > marketing of an inferior product will result in more sales than poorE > marketing of a superior product.  How much longer will it be beforeV > Compaq sees this ?  2 There are none so blind as those who will not see.   -- e David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/>   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 01:05:08 GMTt1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) ' Message-ID: <3C310BE7.4AA63DE7@fsi.net>    GreyCloud wrote: >  > rcarter wrote: > N > > I wonder how long True64 will be around. Compaq has already announced theyM > > will stop making Alpha chips - it's a lot cheaper to buy an intel box and J > > run Linux. At work we are in the process of replacing our aging AlphasI > > with Dell supplied RH7.1 boxes - much faster, fairly inexpensive, anda$ > > minimal porting problems so far. > >r > > M > Compaq is porting OpenVMS and Tru64 to the Itanium.  But by the time Compaq.K > is ready to implement its port, Intel will have a better Itanium out... I M > hope.  But I think its still a big mistake to dump the Alpha chip... soundsc7 > to me more like PPM (Piss Poor Management) at Compaq.-H > Uh,... ever seen the price of an Itanium built box?? They ain't cheap.  ? Thus, they fit perfectly with the VMS "low volume, high margin"t	 paradigm.V --   David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsk http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.001 ************************