/ INFO-VAX	Tue, 01 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 2       Contents:1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsC Re: VMS as a career move ( was HP admits it will kill VMS if merger G Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP RE: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceedsP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceedsP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceedsP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) Y2K information   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 01 Jan 02 09:50:29 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a0s86q$blm$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   . In article <mdd7kr3kwyd.fsf@panix3.panix.com>,1    Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com> wrote: . >Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes: > F >> I am saving my heart attack for finding people still programing in  assembly# >> for something other than a 6502!  >   >Somebody call the EMTs for Ben. > < >We do *most* of our programming for the Toad-1 in Macro-10. > = <GRIN>  Thank goodness there's still some sanity in this biz. > Machine language things should be written in machine language;, the compiler languages are for other things.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:44:28 GMT & From: badbob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <3C31BEE0.4FEE4F6F@bellatlantic.net>   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > 0 > In article <mdd7kr3kwyd.fsf@panix3.panix.com>,3 >    Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com> wrote: 0 > >Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes: > > G > >> I am saving my heart attack for finding people still programing in 
 > assembly% > >> for something other than a 6502!  > > " > >Somebody call the EMTs for Ben. > > > > >We do *most* of our programming for the Toad-1 in Macro-10. > > ? > <GRIN>  Thank goodness there's still some sanity in this biz. @ > Machine language things should be written in machine language;. > the compiler languages are for other things. > /BAH@ But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the proper? word here....non-HOL? Nope, wrong word. ...archaic? Nope, wrong @ word.  Simplistic? Nope, wrong word.  Elegant? Nope, wrong word.2 Complex? Nope, wrong word.  Ahh! Intimate, that isB the proper word! It seems you can use it to right write (or ratherB generate) non-bloat code.  Hmm, yeah, you could use it to generateD bloated code but you have to know what you are doing to get MS levelD bloat.  It seems that Macro-10 had this library of things that wouldB help me write code faster....being a hacker in the old sense, thatD seemed to help me a whole lot.  Hmm, maybe the right word is elegantF after all.  While Macro-10 is just a tick removed from pure assembler,A imho, it does give you control over what your code is doing.  But E the code really can be elegantly simple if you know what it is doing!  Happy new year to all!!  bob  > ) > Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 01 Jan 02 12:02:05 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC* Message-ID: <a0sfth$rp$2@bob.news.rcn.net>  0 In article <3C31BEE0.4FEE4F6F@bellatlantic.net>,*    badbob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> wrote: >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  >>  1 >> In article <mdd7kr3kwyd.fsf@panix3.panix.com>, 4 >>    Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com> wrote:1 >> >Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes:  >> >H >> >> I am saving my heart attack for finding people still programing in >> assembly & >> >> for something other than a 6502! >> ># >> >Somebody call the EMTs for Ben.  >> >? >> >We do *most* of our programming for the Toad-1 in Macro-10.  >> >@ >> <GRIN>  Thank goodness there's still some sanity in this biz.A >> Machine language things should be written in machine language; / >> the compiler languages are for other things.  >> /BAH A >But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the proper @ >word here....non-HOL? Nope, wrong word. ...archaic? Nope, wrongA >word.  Simplistic? Nope, wrong word.  Elegant? Nope, wrong word. 3 >Complex? Nope, wrong word.  Ahh! Intimate, that is C >the proper word! It seems you can use it to right write (or rather C >generate) non-bloat code.  Hmm, yeah, you could use it to generate E >bloated code but you have to know what you are doing to get MS level E >bloat.  It seems that Macro-10 had this library of things that would C >help me write code faster....being a hacker in the old sense, that E >seemed to help me a whole lot.  Hmm, maybe the right word is elegant G >after all.  While Macro-10 is just a tick removed from pure assembler, B >imho, it does give you control over what your code is doing.  ButF >the code really can be elegantly simple if you know what it is doing!  = The word is versatile.  We were only limited by the hardware. > As JMF liked to say, "Have EDDT, will travel".  Only a machine6 language can have a companionable debugger that really tells it like it is.   >Happy new year to all!!  / It already is happy; I don't live in Buffalo.     5 Happy new year to everybody.  May you all laugh every  day.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 14:20:10 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC; Message-ID: <3c31b78a.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   ! John Santos (JOHN@egh.com) wrote:  > Michael Zarlenga wrote: 0 > > Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:D > > : 	Having been bit too many times with SYLOGIN.COM abbreviationsL > > : 	or expansions that "everyone" is using and shying away from SET SCOPE( > > : 	the habit (depending on mood) is: > > M > > : 	$ deletery *.tmp_scratch;*  ! deleterey?  Hmmm... yes extra chars help ) > > : 					! force delete to be picked up - > > : 					!overriding goofy delete settings.  > > ! > > : 	Or the more common for me:  > >  > > : 	$ delete = "delete" > > : 	$ delete *.tmp_scratch;*  > > E > > Another nicety in ksh ... to avoid aliases for various commands,  C > > you only need to precede the command with a "\".  That allows a D > > one-time execution of the actual, unaliased command without dis-8 > > turbing the alias should any donstream code need it. > >  > > -- Mike Zarlenga > ? > DCL on RSTS/E has "_" to prevent command symbol substitution.  > ' > For example "$ _copy foo.dat bar.dat" 0 > does a copy even if "copy" has been redefined. > ? > I think this syntax is by analogy to _DEV: inhibiting logical = > name translation, which applies to both VMS and RSTS/E DCL.  > : > I always wondered why this was never implemented on VMS,9 > although it would break anything that defined a command ? > symbol named "_something", which is legal (or at least works) ' > on VMS.  (E.G. "$ _copy := dir/size")   C As DCL only looks at the first entity of the line to be resolved as # a symbol, the following also works:      $ noalias = """   $ noalias delete *.tmp_scratch;*   cu,    Martin --  D                     | Martin Vorlaender    |    VMS & WNT programmer-   Smiert Spamionem  | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de D                     |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/4                     | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 14:29:03 +0100 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC; Message-ID: <3c31b99f.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   0 David J. Dachtera (djesys.nospam@fsi.net) wrote: > Michael Zarlenga wrote: 4 > > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:> > > :> Toss in the ability to include other .ksh code into theC > > :> current .ksh program as code and you have a much more power-  > > :> ful scripting language. > > @ > > : Can you provide an example? Your explanation is confusing. > >  > > . mystuff.ksh  > H > I'm sure that means something to well-seasoned UN*X folks. I'll need aG > deeper explanation of the mechanism before it completely makes sense.   G It's the equivalent of DCL's @ operator. Nothing extraordinary, really.    cu,    Martin --  F                           | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3  Cetero censeo            | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de F  Redmondem delendam esse. |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/:                           | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:43:17 -0000 / From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u33m8lrs17g8c4@corp.supernews.com>   0 In comp.os.vms John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:D :> Another nicety in ksh ... to avoid aliases for various commands, B :> you only need to precede the command with a "\".  That allows aC :> one-time execution of the actual, unaliased command without dis- 7 :> turbing the alias should any donstream code need it.   ? : DCL on RSTS/E has "_" to prevent command symbol substitution.   ? Damn shame it never made it to VMS DCL.  Feature like that make ) writing really solid code so much easier.    --   -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:49:08 -0000 / From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u33mjkoacpfa6b@corp.supernews.com>   ? In comp.os.vms David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: C :> : Use GOSUB instead then. You can't pass parameters on the GOSUB L :> : statement, but all local and global symbols are "visible" regardless ofJ :> : the GOSUB depth. CALL is like "@" - it creates a new procedure depth. :>  ; :> The benefits of functions come directly from the ability = :> to have calling arguments and return values, otherwise, we 6 :> would all just use global variables and gotos in C.  H : In Macro (VAX Assembler - its a "3"GL on Alpha, sort of), you push theJ : address or value of an argument or the address of an argument block ontoI : the stack, then branch to the subroutine (usually via a CALLG, CALLS or  : similar).   < What's easier to read and support?  Code like that?  Or code9 where the arguments and return values are passed thusly :       x = func(a,b);     = :> :> Toss in the ability to include other .ksh code into the B :> :> current .ksh program as code and you have a much more power- :> :> ful scripting language.  :>  ? :> : Can you provide an example? Your explanation is confusing.  :>   :> . mystuff.ksh  H : I'm sure that means something to well-seasoned UN*X folks. I'll need aG : deeper explanation of the mechanism before it completely makes sense.   ? Similar to DCL's @, in that the code in mystuff.ksh executes in D the current process shell.  Dissimilar in that function definitions,> calls, variables , etc, are processed almost as if the code in  mystuff.ksh were inserted there.   --   -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 09:19:36 -0700 + From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C31E198.C6083453@jetnet.ab.ca>   Rich Alderson wrote: > / > Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes:  > O > > I am saving my heart attack for finding people still programing in assembly $ > > for something other than a 6502! > ! > Somebody call the EMTs for Ben.  > = > We do *most* of our programming for the Toad-1 in Macro-10.  >    Macros don't count. :)( And no I don't want a macro that counts.  A Notice how clock speeds go up more abstract the software becomes.      --  % Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * + www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html    ------------------------------    Date: 01 Jan 2002 09:21:27 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC- Message-ID: <87ellaq31k.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   * Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> writes:  / > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, David J. Dachtera wrote:  >  > > G > > I'd likely try writing a script to overcome that, so files could be  > > processed one at a time. > >  > < > The nice thing about Unix is they already thought of that:A >    find "some_directory" -type f -exec grep "some_string" {} \;   < Then pomder the irony of VMS being 'expensive' when creating processes...   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 01 Jan 02 10:03:45 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com 9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds + Message-ID: <a0s8vm$blm$3@bob.news.rcn.net>   > In article <PDbY7.46443$Sj1.19314807@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,8    "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: > ? >"John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message 0 >news:3C2D8C7A.DE94780C@swissonline.delete.ch... >> >> Just a few brief points ... >> >> the augur wrote:  >> > >> .... J >> > The main point is that VMS makes money, it makes a good enough amount/ >> > of money for any small-mid-large cap firm.  >>F >> Why doesn't Compaq do more to promote the use of VMS ?  What's your
 >> thoughts ?  >> > G >As I said more than half a decade ago, "IT'S THE MARKETING, STUPID!!!"  > 5 >(No insinuation of cerebral short-circuits intended  - >for any of the denizens of these newsgroups)   ; No it is not the marketing.  It is also ability to keep the A people who know how to get a release from the specs to the field. > Once that core group is gone, you have NOTHING to market.  I'm> talking about coders, testers, developers, documentors, field < test infrastructure, bit babysitters, etc.  When you have a < management who assumes that shipping software is a mere COPY: command, you have a software distribution business, not a  software production business.    /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 01 Jan 02 09:58:11 GMTO From: jmfbahciv@aol.comu9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds + Message-ID: <a0s8l8$blm$2@bob.news.rcn.net>i  3 In article <873d1rusqg.fsf@cartman.azz.us-lot.org>,c$    Adam Sampson <azz@gnu.org> wrote:, >P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) writes: >i1 >> Well, we have a 23 year old and a 35 year old.iF >> Anyone else want to join the party of folks wishing to use OpenVMS? >aA >Here's a 20-year-old Un*x-clone fan who'd like to at least _try_ B >OpenVMS, if only as a source of ideas on how to make my favourite >operating systems better. >s@ Now that is the correct attitude to have.  There is hope in this= world after all.   You should try some of the PDP-10 OSes :-)o: although you might have a steep learning curve.  The more = exposure you have to OSes the faster you'll be able to assesse= the philosophies of each.  I call that acquiring objectivity.m   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.H   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 12:37:02 -0000e= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>M9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsm6 Message-ID: <20020101123702.28069.qmail@gacracker.org>  1 On 31 Dec 2001, Adam Sampson <azz@gnu.org> wrote:a, >P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) writes: > 1 >> Well, we have a 23 year old and a 35 year old.RF >> Anyone else want to join the party of folks wishing to use OpenVMS? >(A >Here's a 20-year-old Un*x-clone fan who'd like to at least _try_aB >OpenVMS, if only as a source of ideas on how to make my favourite >operating systems better.  0 There's hobbes the vax at http://www.thevax.org.  : I've also got a small 2100 you could have an account on...) http://vmsbox.cjb.net/shell-accounts.html      Doc. -- H6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.netM   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 12:06:52 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>iL Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was HP admits it will kill VMS if merger4 Message-ID: <VA.0000050c.333a23bb@bluewin.delete.ch>  H In article <3C302F81.B69D47E8@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLean wrote: > Rob Young wrote: > > B > >  Not so... a big niche that wasn't even around then has sprungE > >  up, cellular phone billing.  Recent new niche is cell phone textoH > >  messaging and that is huge in Europe.  270 billion messages sent inJ > >  2001.  Americans are trailing in that usage but soon we start playingG > >  with text next year.  Funny, Americans big on cheap Internet usagelF > >  and Europeans on the cutting edge of peer to peer text messaging.7 > >  Maybe because they have expensive Internet access?n > >  > 5 > Come on guys, don't suppose, ask someone in Europe.  > F > No internet is not expensive here.  I pay about USD 55 per month for" > cable access (often at 800 Kbs). > J With respect John, you obviously haven't dealt with Brtitsh Telecom (BT). ! We are lucky here in Switzerland.d  J The phone and internet services here knock the cr*p out of what I came to H expect in the UK. UK - 1995, I climbed onto Compuserve and in the first C month it cost me over 100 UKP (then USD ~165) in phone bills alone -J (dropped connections and busy lines galore, and BT were charging 10 pence J a shot for an engaged tone), plus the Compuserve connection fee. Needless J to say, I found ways to reduce that drastically, but Joe and Jane Average C definitely didn't. I believe our German friends also suffered from R9 extortionate practices at the hands of Deutsche Telekomm.c  K On the mobile front, with a view to treating a nephew in the UK, I visited rH the British Telecom site yesterday, and found that pay as you go phones I are subject to a minimum charge of 10UKP per 30 days. OTOH, mine happily oH chirps on with something like 35 USD every six months, and it does SMS, , can send email, and works internationally... ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerlandh   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 08:14:50 +0100r1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>lP Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger5 Message-ID: <3C3161EA.1756C245@swissonline.delete.ch>l   Trevor Osatchuk wrote: >  ...NE > Up here in Edmonton, AB Canada I am paying $39.00 cdn.(also cheaper D > becuse I have cable from SHAW as well as highspeed)  This is aboutD > $25.50 U.S(today's exchange rate)  Less than half of what is beingE > paid in Europe.  I would say that I am getting a better deal.  If ItF > were paying $55 U.S.($80.00 cdn) I would seriously think about going- > back to dialup.(The horror, the horror.. :)  >   > Everyone makes the same mistake when comparing prices in otherG countries, they use their set of values as a base.  You need to look atyB the amount of work time it takes to buy something or the amount ofF disposable income you have (after tax and all normal living expenses).  G My USD 55/month for cable modem (unlimited) is less than 1 hour of work- (after tax).     John   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 09:55:56 -0000:= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>sY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceeds6 Message-ID: <20020101095556.25135.qmail@gacracker.org>  B On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:G >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:18:43 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>@ >wrote:. > F >>Note that there really isn't any free windoz.  Nothing to match the  >>hobbyist program.  s >l	 >Rubbish.o' >Hobbyists never pay for their windows.>E >I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of windows users Im) >have met who actually paid for their OS.<  B Don't lump VMS Hobbyists in with the criminals you associate with!     Doc. -- n6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.net.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 01:08:36 +1100r, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceede8 Message-ID: <mjg33u8c41j6c298t06igs3euuso55ngh4@4ax.com>  ( On 1 Jan 2002 09:55:56 -0000, Doc.Cypher3 <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:oC >On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:bH >>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:18:43 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> >>wrote:G >>>Note that there really isn't any free windoz.  Nothing to match the e >>>hobbyist program.  
 >>Rubbish.( >>Hobbyists never pay for their windows.F >>I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of windows users I* >>have met who actually paid for their OS. >tC >Don't lump VMS Hobbyists in with the criminals you associate with!   E The point that I was making is that when free ( effectively ) WindowslD is essentially available to the average hobbyist for the asking ( orE for the downloading I suppose ) , why would anyone pay real money fory VMS for hobbyist use ?   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 15:35:35 -0000v= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>hY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceed:6 Message-ID: <20020101153535.30859.qmail@gacracker.org>  B On Wed, 02 Jan 2002, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:) >On 1 Jan 2002 09:55:56 -0000, Doc.Cypherd4 ><Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:D >>On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:I >>>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:18:43 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>o
 >>>wrote: H >>>>Note that there really isn't any free windoz.  Nothing to match the  >>>>hobbyist program.  n >>>Rubbish. ) >>>Hobbyists never pay for their windows.lG >>>I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of windows users Ii, >>>have met who actually paid for their OS.  >>D >>Don't lump VMS Hobbyists in with the criminals you associate with! > F >The point that I was making is that when free ( effectively ) WindowsE >is essentially available to the average hobbyist for the asking ( orpF >for the downloading I suppose ) , why would anyone pay real money for >VMS for hobbyist use ?o  G Nobody has to pay real money for VMS for hobbyist use! The licenses are.J free, just like Linux all you have to pay for is a distribution (or borrow one from your local VMS site).  8 Try visiting http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html     Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.netS   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 13:08:23 -0500+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>iY Subject: RE: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceed T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B37@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  F re: >>> My neighbour is a good example. He says that he has used every versionl8 of windows from 3.0 onwards and has never bought the OS.E I think that he is running XP Pro now. He tells me that he downloadedtD it from the net 2 days after "it went gold" and months before it was released in the shops here.<<<  G As others have pointed out, recommending pirated MS or any other vendor-D software is not something that most would consider to be very smart.  
 Reference:7 http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/basics/what/default.aspd2 http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/basics/what/ip.asp8 http://www.microsoft.com/piracy/basics/facts/default.asp =20d Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantl Compaq Canada Corp.i Professional Serviceso Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----3 From: israel r t [mailto:israelrt@optushome.com.au]  Sent: December 31, 2001 9:30 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComaF Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)    F On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:18:43 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:  G >Note that there really isn't any free windoz.  Nothing to match the=20e >hobbyist program. =20   Rubbish.& Hobbyists never pay for their windows.D I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of windows users I( have met who actually paid for their OS.  F My neighbour is a good example. He says that he has used every version8 of windows from 3.0 onwards and has never bought the OS.E I think that he is running XP Pro now. He tells me that he downloaded0D it from the net 2 days after "it went gold" and months before it was released in the shops here.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 18:37:03 GMTm= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)nY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedi0 Message-ID: <00A07651.DC41D466@SendSpamHere.ORG>  g In article <vg723u0a48f1omcv05klf3tnc27iuaoejt@4ax.com>, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> writes: G >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:18:43 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>a >wrote:e >aF >>Note that there really isn't any free windoz.  Nothing to match the  >>hobbyist program.    >M	 >Rubbish.a' >Hobbyists never pay for their windows.eE >I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of windows users In) >have met who actually paid for their OS.n >oG >My neighbour is a good example. He says that he has used every version 9 >of windows from 3.0 onwards and has never bought the OS.>F >I think that he is running XP Pro now. He tells me that he downloadedE >it from the net 2 days after "it went gold" and months before it wasr >released in the shops here.  C There are differences between obtaining something free and legally eB and stealing something.  You're obviously not bothered by a guilty conscience.n   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi            MJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbest   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 23:52:45 +1100a, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceeds=8 Message-ID: <p6c33uo26s5cl01hb95bmkqsa8p6t4pji9@4ax.com>  D On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 11:25:33 +0000, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> wrote:  E >Sounds good to me.  I've quite a few here in the UK.  I'll check outo< >the shipping costs sometime soon.  $400 (Aus) agreed then ?
 >Roy Omond >Blue Bubble Ltd.e   Yes , I am interested.0 What exactly ( model numbers etc ) do you have ? And just how large are they ?p   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 16:48:16 GMTt& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceedsl% Message-ID: <a0sp8g$ef7@web.nmti.com>e  / In article <u31f97avcn2r55@news.supernews.com>,-$ John Vottero <John@mvpsi.com> wrote:K > This is a red herring (and you have the story slightly wrong).  In NT V4,uN > the graphics subsystem was moved into the kernel.  Prior to that it ran as aN > separate process.  So in V4 it's running in kernel mode and prior to that itJ > was running in user mode.  Some people like to throw this up as a changeM > that made NT less reliable because if the graphics subsystem has a problem,eD > it crashes the whole system since it's now running in kernel mode.  N The failure mode I'm concerned about isn't GDI crashing the whole system, it'sL GDI corrupting something in the kernel instead of crashing. If there's a bugK in a driver in 3.51 it's more likely to cause a crash, and get fixed duringuL development. In 4.0 A memory corruption bug in a driver may go unnoticed forI a long time, and of course it's a lot harder to debug corruption problemsRI because first of all you have to figure out the subsystem that caused thes original error...   I And, it took (IIRC) 4 service packs before NT 4 was as stable a server asdI NT 3.51. I find it hard to believe that moving GDI into the kernel wasn'tc involved...f   -- u+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva. E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."nL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 16:50:33 GMT & From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceeds % Message-ID: <a0spcp$emk@web.nmti.com>r  B In article <20011231143102.K20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>,* Bill Gunshannon  <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:D > I think you were told wrong.  It was precisely at NT 4.0 that manyE > previoulsy supported devices became paper-weights for precisely theuH > opposite reason.  The addition of the HAL (Hardware Abstraction Layer)1 > made directly twiddling the hardware un-doable.e  - Um, Bill, all versions of NT have used a HAL.:   -- "+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.wE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 09:47:36 -0000l= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>oY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)a6 Message-ID: <20020101094736.24975.qmail@gacracker.org>  B On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:3 >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:19:13 +0000 (UTC), drsquare  ><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:  >pH >>>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about as, >>>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....  >>6 >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware? >  >Oh there is an Alpha port.b3 >But Alphas are about as common as camels in Aspen.o  1 That's funny, they seem to have some at Island...n   http://www.islandco.com/  ; Or are you operating on the principle expressed in my .sig?H     Doc. -- a6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.netj   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 10:05:33 -0000a= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>rY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) 6 Message-ID: <20020101100533.25363.qmail@gacracker.org>  ; On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote:w >drsquare wrote: >>   >> Can't someone clone it then?o >f >a) See my previous post...yE >b) If you don't understand what you're saying, I can't explain it to  >you.i   Dean,s  H drsquare is reading this from comp.os.linux.advocacy. Since your messageJ seems to have come through the Info-VAX gateway it has lost the crosspost.     Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 10:09:21 -0600o+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)23 Message-ID: <u$xHM4c$D0Y4@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  a In article <c4023u0962tflimsdlv7o3rtnlkj1p07je@4ax.com>, drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:<> > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001 22:13:23 GMT, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,   >>> & >>> Surely it can't be that difficult. >>* >>Without the source code it's impossible. >  > Can't someone clone it then? >   ; 	Yes.  But there are some bits that a truly very difficult.yD 	Apparently, the Distributed Lock Manager is one of them.  ClusteredG 	Filesystem , another.  Tru64 got the bits and pieces of that from VMS a? 	and in turn it made its way to Oracle.  Linux is getting there.( 	or arriving? from several directions...  2 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/23509.html  ? 	But to clone some of the trickier aspects of VMS would require : 	reverse engineering a monster... and in the end you wouldD 	probably end up with a "subset of a subset" ala Oracle or something@ 	newer but different, after all VMS and Unix have very different 	filesystem concepts, etc.   				Robr   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 16:27:21 +0000 (UTC)& From: drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e8 Message-ID: <aan33u0ja71it9pugb22dkdfq82lmo8ion@4ax.com>  > On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:38:37 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,0  (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote:  3 >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:19:13 +0000 (UTC), drsquarea ><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:F >yH >>>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about as+ >>>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....M >>6 >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware? >  >Oh there is an Alpha port.a3 >But Alphas are about as common as camels in Aspen.n  ; I mean, why doesn't someone write a version for common PCs?f   -- 81               ..        ..                  .'   n0              '         '     .'            '    0     ':''.':':'':':''.':''.  :   :'':':''.':''.  0      : .'.' '..: : .' : .' : ''.'..: :..' : .'  0     :         :  :          '..'  :             0    :         :  :                :              0  .'        .' .'               .'                  ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 16:45:55 -0000 = From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>eY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e6 Message-ID: <20020101164555.32312.qmail@gacracker.org>  ; On Tue, 1 Jan 2002, drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:e? >On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:38:37 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,n1 > (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote:e >y4 >>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:19:13 +0000 (UTC), drsquare  >><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote: >>I >>>>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about ash- >>>>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....   >>>n7 >>>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?- >> >>Oh there is an Alpha port.4 >>But Alphas are about as common as camels in Aspen. >s< >I mean, why doesn't someone write a version for common PCs?  G What has been done is a VAX emulator for PCs called CharonVAX. Once yousJ have this up and running you can install VMS on your virtual VAX. There isK talk of this being available through the hobbyist program again, so it will : be possible to run VMS on a PC for free when this happens.     Doc. -- g6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.net.   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Jan 2002 09:37:31 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e- Message-ID: <87advyq2as.fsf@prep.synonet.com>o  ( drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:  8 > >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?  A > >That's it!  Take a 64 bit OS and port it back to a 32 bit (I'd + > >rather consider it a 2 bit ;) processor.   $ > Surely it can't be that difficult.  C Well, 'common' would not be code for 'industry standard' aka x86 PClE would it? Well, that has been done, and it was taken out the back ande put out of its misery. V  F Only a few of the chips are able to support VMS properly. The x86 and G its smoking, bloated brethern can not. Funny enough, the PA-RISK would,: or in the 32 bit ones anyway.   C Then there is writing and testing a large, complex kernel, debuginghC (about a decade with luck and carfull work) and all the rest of thepC pile that is needed. And a large part of that is the people and the   built up experience and culture.       -- u< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.y@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 17:01:29 GMTs& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e% Message-ID: <a0sq19$fp7@web.nmti.com>5  + In article <a0qfcvINNgnq@subds.rzg.mpg.de>, ' Bruce Scott TOK <bds@rzg.mpg.de> wrote:HG > It is too much thankless work, and there is already Linux (hint: thatoG > constellation of opportunity was only available once; we're just damnaF > lucky it was taken advantage of by several someones as competent and > scrupulous as RMS and LT).   Linus, yes. Salt of the earth.  H RMS, well, I think he takes too much credit for Linux. At the time LinuxH was developed, there were at least two other toolchains Linus might haveG used, not to mention the BSD source tree he could have (and would have,iM if it had been available a year earlier[1]). I think it was just steam-enginedH time, myself. The skills and knowledge needed to implement UNIX, and theK tool sets needed to support the work, had just become common enough that it  would have happened regardless.-   [1] See-O http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1992Dec20.115036.7197%40klaava.Helsinki.FI-   -- -+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.rE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."-L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 17:44:32 GMTl0 From: kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org (Charlie Ebert)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)07 Message-ID: <slrna33tnd.85t.kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org>o  ; In article <a0sq19$fp7@web.nmti.com>, Peter da Silva wrote:h- > In article <a0qfcvINNgnq@subds.rzg.mpg.de>,H) > Bruce Scott TOK <bds@rzg.mpg.de> wrote:IH >> It is too much thankless work, and there is already Linux (hint: thatH >> constellation of opportunity was only available once; we're just damnG >> lucky it was taken advantage of by several someones as competent andg >> scrupulous as RMS and LT).y >   > Linus, yes. Salt of the earth. >t  $ Linus is a master at making freinds.5 He is a good man who's doing good work for the world.a Everybody commends him.r      J > RMS, well, I think he takes too much credit for Linux. At the time LinuxJ > was developed, there were at least two other toolchains Linus might haveI > used, not to mention the BSD source tree he could have (and would have,gO > if it had been available a year earlier[1]). I think it was just steam-enginepJ > time, myself. The skills and knowledge needed to implement UNIX, and theM > tool sets needed to support the work, had just become common enough that it3! > would have happened regardless.K > 	 > [1] SeeqQ > http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1992Dec20.115036.7197%40klaava.Helsinki.FIe >   7 Considering how he supports HURD I would have to agree.A  8 He takes credit for his bit in Linux as a BINDER to call8 attention to the greater cause which is the GPL license.  : He does not get enough credit for the GPL license and this is the whole problem.i  < The GPL is what makes this system safe and equitable for all who choose to invest in it.n   -- s   Charliew   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 18:24:05 GMTe& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)p% Message-ID: <a0sus5$oil@web.nmti.com>/  7 In article <slrna33tnd.85t.kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org>,p1 Charlie Ebert <kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org> wrote:d> > The GPL is what makes this system safe and equitable for all > who choose to invest in it.l  I The GPL is an interesting experiment, but I don't think it's as importantpJ as people make out. After all, the other free UNIX doesn't seem to be hurt by not using it.   -- e+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.iE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."iL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 18:46:56 GMTt0 From: kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org (Charlie Ebert)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)o7 Message-ID: <slrna341ak.85t.kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org>y  ; In article <a0sus5$oil@web.nmti.com>, Peter da Silva wrote:r9 > In article <slrna33tnd.85t.kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org>,O3 > Charlie Ebert <kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org> wrote:e? >> The GPL is what makes this system safe and equitable for all  >> who choose to invest in it. > K > The GPL is an interesting experiment, but I don't think it's as important2L > as people make out. After all, the other free UNIX doesn't seem to be hurt > by not using it. >   I 10 years ago, FreeBSD was a professional OS when Linux was barely filling- a single floppy disk.S  D Given you consider 'Open Source' the issue here, since both OS's hadD 'Open Source', what was the deciding factor which made Linux eclipse! BSD then?  What was it?  Tell us?d  - You have to examine what the differences are.h  B And when you do you see the ONLY difference was in their licenses.  % FreeBSD uses the Berkley BSD license.v   Linux uses the GPL license.  n  H And Linux is several times the size and scope of any of the BSD's today.E In just 10 short years, one decade, they managed to eclipse the work HK of 20 years and are no knocking on Microsofts door/kicking them in the ass.n  H There are like 50 actual people working on the FreeBSD project with some4 1000 maybe volunteers contributing bits on the side.  C There are a core of about 80,000 working on Linux today full time, rK and the total population of worker bees is 300,000 people around the world.g  , FreeBSD has 'OPEN SOURCE' and so does Linux.  + What is the diffence man...  What is it!!!!   C Why would 300 times the people go to work on a project with a sucky  license....   H And most of these people had admitted for the last 10 years that FreeBSD( was a better OS to boot!  Some still do!  F It was the GPL license....  That is the ONLY difference you will find.   -- 2   Charlie1   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 11:25:33 +0000a From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>wY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) ) Message-ID: <3C319CAC.4A0C7296@Omond.net>m   israel r t wrote:r  H > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:19:46 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> > wrote: >pD > >I've got a few that would go rather cheap.  How many do you want? >b8 > Two ( in working condition and with the os installed )E > I'd even pay 200 $ Australian each if you pay the shipping charges.-  D Sounds good to me.  I've quite a few here in the UK.  I'll check out; the shipping costs sometime soon.  $400 (Aus) agreed then ?a  	 Roy Omondt Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 04:07:50 -0500<- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e Subject: Y2K information, Message-ID: <3C317C64.5BA4C58E@videotron.ca>  < http://www.attrition.org/gallery/errors/tn/airport2.jpg.html  V Hint: check the date at top of page which states that everything was running normally.    4 Also, I have identified the airport display seen at:  ; http://www.attrition.org/gallery/errors/tn/airport.jpg.htmlt   to belong to London Heathrow.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.002 ************************ng in kernel mode.  N The failure mode I'm concerned about isn't GDI crashing the whole system, it'sL GDI corrupting something in the kernel instead of crashing. If there's a bugK in a driver in 3.51 it's more likely to @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;    @;     A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    	A;    
A;    A;    A;    
A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;     A;    !A;    "A;    #A;    $A;    %A;    &A;    'A;    (A;    )A;    *A;    +A;    ,A;    -A;    .A;    /A;    0A;    1A;    2A;    3A;    4A;    5A;    6A;    7A;    8A;    9A;    :A;    ;A;    <A;    =A;    >A;    ?A;    @A;    AA;    BA;    CA;    DA;    EA;    FA;    GA;    HA;    IA;    JA;    KA;    LA;    MA;    NA;    OA;    PA;    QA;    RA;    SA;    TA;    UA;    VA;    WA;    XA;    YA;    ZA;    [A;    \A;    ]A;    ^A;    _A;    `A;    aA;    bA;    cA;    dA;    eA;    fA;    gA;    hA;    iA;    jA;    kA;    lA;    mA;    nA;    oA;    pA;    qA;    rA;    sA;    tA;    uA;    vA;    wA;    xA;    yA;    zA;    {A;    |A;    }A;    ~A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    A;    