/ INFO-VAX	Wed, 02 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 3       Contents:P Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at  www.openvP Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at  www.openvP Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at  www.openvP Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at www.openvmP Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at www.openvmP Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at www.openvm1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds& MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?* RE: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?* RE: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?* Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?* Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?* Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS? Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq/ Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / TS10/VAX emulator - still OpenVMS problems. :-( G Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)G VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a career move ) K Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a career move ) K Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a career move ) P Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a career move ) move; VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )  VMS V7.3 SPD Error Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error Re: VMS V7.3 SPD ErrorP Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common hardwarP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common har Why not VMS?N Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaq  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 18:08:43 -0600$ From: "del cecchi" <dcecchi@msn.com>Y Subject: Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at  www.openv 5 Message-ID: <AcsY7.3918$ag1.161305@eagle.america.net>   > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C31FED6.4194802E@swissonline.delete.ch...  >  >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > >  > ... F > > It is sad to see mediocrity win. But on the bright side, EV7 has aF > > few years of running room, if Compaq elects to actually market the > > technology.  >  > ; > Based on previous form that "if" should be in 72pt font !  > # > I do hope Compaq surprises us....  >  >  > 
 > John McLean   H Of course no one will be stupid enough to buy it because that would justC be pouring money down the rathole of a dead architecture.  Alpha is = Dead.  Dead as Jerry Garcia.  Dead as Elvis. It's dead. fred.    del    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:08:51 -0500 - From: daytripper <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> Y Subject: Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at  www.openv 8 Message-ID: <77u43uc89lq1ahessb9u9dfnt07qpap86r@4ax.com>  H On Tue, 1 Jan 2002 18:08:43 -0600, "del cecchi" <dcecchi@msn.com> wrote:   > ? >"John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message 0 >news:3C31FED6.4194802E@swissonline.delete.ch... >> >> >> "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: >> > >> ...G >> > It is sad to see mediocrity win. But on the bright side, EV7 has a G >> > few years of running room, if Compaq elects to actually market the  >> > technology. >> >>< >> Based on previous form that "if" should be in 72pt font ! >>$ >> I do hope Compaq surprises us.... >>I >Of course no one will be stupid enough to buy it because that would just ; >be pouring money down the rathole of a dead architecture.    N Yes - that "gaping head wound" I referred to earlier. Pretty much consigns theH last few Alpha gasps (read: Marvel/EV7) to a subset of the existing base (read: gummint).  H > Alpha is Dead.  Dead as Jerry Garcia.  Dead as Elvis. It's dead. fred.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 03:20:07 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>Y Subject: Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at  www.openv > Message-ID: <H%uY7.48836$Sj1.20011743@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  : "daytripper" <day_trippr@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message2 news:77u43uc89lq1ahessb9u9dfnt07qpap86r@4ax.com...J > On Tue, 1 Jan 2002 18:08:43 -0600, "del cecchi" <dcecchi@msn.com> wrote: >  > > A > >"John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message 2 > >news:3C31FED6.4194802E@swissonline.delete.ch... > >> > >> > >> "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: > >> > > >> ...I > >> > It is sad to see mediocrity win. But on the bright side, EV7 has a I > >> > few years of running room, if Compaq elects to actually market the  > >> > technology. > >> > >>> > >> Based on previous form that "if" should be in 72pt font ! > >>& > >> I do hope Compaq surprises us.... > >>K > >Of course no one will be stupid enough to buy it because that would just < > >be pouring money down the rathole of a dead architecture. > L > Yes - that "gaping head wound" I referred to earlier. Pretty much consigns the J > last few Alpha gasps (read: Marvel/EV7) to a subset of the existing base > (read: gummint).  J Yeah, as I learned back in my paramedic days, exit wounds generally look aJ lot nastier than the corresponding entrance wounds. Of course, if Compaq'sK spin doctors are telling the CEO that "it's only a flesh wound," the Powers J That Be will get their first indication of a Real Problem when Alpha sales	 flatline.   L Presumably the spin doctors will be handsomely compensated for their service) to their employer and their stockholders.   
 So it goes...    ------------------------------    Date: 01 Jan 2002 13:54:07 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> Y Subject: Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at www.openvm 0 Message-ID: <qh8zbh3fgg.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  6 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:N > Recall that DEC pitched Alpha to Intel back in 1989-90. There were also someJ > discussions between IBM and DEC which obviously went nowhere. And in theJ > 94-95 timeframe there were some talks between DEC and Sun. DEC wanted to2 > license Solaris and wanted Sun to license Alpha.  ; Any insights into why any of those talks were unsuccessful?   E If I had to hazard an entirely uninformed guess, I'd suspect that DEC G wanted way too much money for an Alpha license to make it attractive to  any of their competitors.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:15:08 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>Y Subject: Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at www.openvm > Message-ID: <MxqY7.47270$Sj1.19785282@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  @ "Eric Smith" <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote in message* news:qh8zbh3fgg.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com...8 > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:K > > Recall that DEC pitched Alpha to Intel back in 1989-90. There were also  someL > > discussions between IBM and DEC which obviously went nowhere. And in theL > > 94-95 timeframe there were some talks between DEC and Sun. DEC wanted to4 > > license Solaris and wanted Sun to license Alpha. > = > Any insights into why any of those talks were unsuccessful?    Yes, a little. ;-}   > G > If I had to hazard an entirely uninformed guess, I'd suspect that DEC I > wanted way too much money for an Alpha license to make it attractive to  > any of their competitors.   L The way I heard it was that Sun wanted WAY too much for a Solaris license. AC shame, in a way. Sun would have gained a very competitive processor H architecture, DEC would have gained the market-leading UNIX. Which, with9 some Tru64 enhancements, would have been vastly improved.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 00:10:48 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> Y Subject: Re: Exclusive Photos of Alpha 21364C EV7 Now Available for Persual at www.openvm , Message-ID: <3C329657.1D722603@videotron.ca>  J > > Alpha is Dead.  Dead as Jerry Garcia.  Dead as Elvis. It's dead. fred.  K  If its is as dead as elvis, then perhaps we could rely on the World Weekly H News to keep Alpha alive do do lots of publicity for it and convince the masses it is still alive.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 19:05:01 GMT < From: "Stuart R. Fuller" <stu@cc49395-b.wodhvn1.mi.home.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <621t0a.klp.ln@dadsys1.fuller.local>  = In comp.os.vms Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com> wrote: / : Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes:   N :> I am saving my heart attack for finding people still programing in assembly# :> for something other than a 6502!   ! : Somebody call the EMTs for Ben.    EMulation Traps?           Stu    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 14:28:15 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C320DCF.6F964559@videotron.ca>   Michael Zarlenga wrote: A > : DCL on RSTS/E has "_" to prevent command symbol substitution.  > A > Damn shame it never made it to VMS DCL.  Feature like that make + > writing really solid code so much easier.   N Not sure about command symbol substitution, but _user will bypass logical nameQ translation , and I believe forwarding in VMS mail (at least it did in the past).   M For instance, if some prankster defined a systemwide logical of your username L to translate to his, if someone sends an email to your name, he will get the; email. But if they send to _yourname, then you will get it.   M I would suspect that there are sprinklingof other such behaviours inside VMS.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:04:23 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C3224FA.D88BF6E4@fsi.net>    Peter da Silva wrote:  > ) > In article <3C310556.DFD5D97B@fsi.net>, 2 > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > [snip] > >Get it *NOW*? >  > Nope.   D Then, I can only suggest that you study up on it a bit further. I've< explained about all there is to explain. If the point is notE crystal-clear to you by now, then it will take someone closer to your = own paradigm to do the job. Obviously, that person is not me.    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:04:36 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECB Message-ID: <EvpY7.421873$uB.39814929@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:51WnEcO+Ho+$@eisner.encompasserve.org... I > In article <20011231184532.B20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>, Bill % Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> writes: 1 > > On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, David J. Dachtera wrote:  > >  > >>J > >> I believe I recall a post in comp.os.vms about some app. that createdJ > >> some 500,000 files a day. Maybe it's only 50,000 or something, but it  > >> *WAS* an outrageous number. > > H > > I don't know enough about the internals of VMS but if this were on aG > > Unix system I still wouldn't put them all in one directory. I would K > > break them up by hour or even smaller increments if necessary.  I would H > > expect that a simple linear traverse of a directory on VMS would getH > > less and less practical just as it would on Unix as the size of that > > directory grew.  > B > I talked to somebody from DEC once who knew how to solve this in0 > some future version of VMS (or so he thought). > C > Priority of such a fix is debatable, since people who write large F > applications know how to avoid such issues, regardless of what their$ > primary operating system might be.  K And if their operating system is VMS, it offers at least one pretty obvious J alternative (RMS indexed files) that was *designed* for that kind of thingJ (unlike the ODS-2 directory structure, which was simply designed to handleK the sizes of directories generated - usually by humans - for categorization L purposes).  While it would be nice to have b-tree-structured directories (asK at least a couple of Unixes do) to handle (with reasonable performance) the H borderline cases where it may be more convenient to use the file system,I blaming the file system for the lack of such optimizations is rather like C blaming TECO for its performance short-comings as a general-purpose  programming language.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:10:00 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C32264C.7CB975EE@fsi.net>    Martin Vorlaender wrote: > 2 > David J. Dachtera (djesys.nospam@fsi.net) wrote: > > Michael Zarlenga wrote: 6 > > > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:@ > > > :> Toss in the ability to include other .ksh code into theE > > > :> current .ksh program as code and you have a much more power-   > > > :> ful scripting language. > > > B > > > : Can you provide an example? Your explanation is confusing. > > >a > > > . mystuff.kshu > >eJ > > I'm sure that means something to well-seasoned UN*X folks. I'll need aI > > deeper explanation of the mechanism before it completely makes sense.u > I > It's the equivalent of DCL's @ operator. Nothing extraordinary, really.n  G Hhmmm... I'll have to try that if I can ever scrape together a hardwarecD platform that will run Solaris/Intel or if I put up another Linux or *BSD distro. on something.   -- - David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems0 http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 22:24:40 GMTg( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a0tcv8$n9c$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>8  ' In article <3C3224FA.D88BF6E4@fsi.net>,e0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: >If the point is notF >crystal-clear to you by now, then it will take someone closer to your> >own paradigm to do the job. Obviously, that person is not me.  E The problem is, you're trying to talk authoritatively about somethingeF that you seem to be unable to model. If you can't make the leap to theG UNIX model you will simply never know why someone can prefer it to DCL.   F For example, the point you are trying to make is simply meaningless onG UNIX. You do not write scripts in the shell by itself, ever. It doesn'tiH make sense to try and compare the shell without any external programs toK DCL or Perl or anything else. A UNIX shell script always uses a combination<, of the shell and the filters that it runs...  J Would you complain because the PDP-11 doesn't have a MID$ instruction? Oh,H sure, you can call EN EXTERNAL SUBROUTINE to get a MID$, but wouldn't it5 be better to program in BASIC where MID$ is built in?   K That sort of argument is obviously nonsense. Well, that's the case with them shell as well.   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)t   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Jan 2002 03:40:35 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC- Message-ID: <87666lc11o.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  * peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:  / > In article <87vgenp94g.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, 0 > Paul Repacholi  <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:J > >I just hit it this evening. Looking for a post... Grepping the news dirD > >is a total loss. Oh well, time to move a copy of them all to VMS!   2 > find $SPOOL -type f -print | xargs grep $PATTERN  J Yes, but I want the answer this week! /var/spool/news/comp/os/vms contains almost what its name implies!w   -- v< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda..@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 00:47:15 -0000 / From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>.: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u34m4jq1cgrm98@corp.supernews.com>f  ? In comp.os.vms David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:o :> > > . mystuff.ksh :> >K :> > I'm sure that means something to well-seasoned UN*X folks. I'll need agJ :> > deeper explanation of the mechanism before it completely makes sense. :> oJ :> It's the equivalent of DCL's @ operator. Nothing extraordinary, really.  I : Hhmmm... I'll have to try that if I can ever scrape together a hardwareMF : platform that will run Solaris/Intel or if I put up another Linux or : *BSD distro. on something.  / "." is specific to ksh; for csh, it's "source."    -- a -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 02:43:13 GMTa2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C3272A8.43DCCDFC@bartek.dontspamme.net>p   Paul Repacholi wrote:t > 6 > Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes: >  > > Peter da Silva wrote:  > 9 > > > In article <a0nkqn$4mn$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>, < > > > Bill Pechter <pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote: > K > > > >Difficulties were in wildcard handling (programs doing it in VAX/VMS G > > > >via a standard set of functions) (Unix using shell expansion andVK > > > >the fact that too many file names break Unix utilities -- cp * junk/ N > > > >with a large directory blows stuff up... the use of xargs was a shockerA > > > >since it's not easily apparent why it would be necessary.)i > J > > > That's not the utility breaking, it's the command line length limit. > K > > > These days you'd have to have a bloody big directory to blow that up.  > C > > I can't count the number of times I've run into that limit withrE > > modern systems. HP/UX, AIX, Solaris, you name it - all within thet% > > last year, with current versions.w > I > I just hit it this evening. Looking for a post... Grepping the news direC > is a total loss. Oh well, time to move a copy of them all to VMS!/  E It would be quicker to "find . -type f -exec grep -li <string> {} \;"d   :)   aak/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:59:17 -0400 + From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <3C323135.6834BE8F@trailing-edge.com>.   Peter da Silva wrote:r > ) > In article <3C3224FA.D88BF6E4@fsi.net>,m2 > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > >If the point is notH > >crystal-clear to you by now, then it will take someone closer to your@ > >own paradigm to do the job. Obviously, that person is not me. > G > The problem is, you're trying to talk authoritatively about somethingaH > that you seem to be unable to model. If you can't make the leap to theI > UNIX model you will simply never know why someone can prefer it to DCL.w > H > For example, the point you are trying to make is simply meaningless onI > UNIX. You do not write scripts in the shell by itself, ever. It doesn'thJ > make sense to try and compare the shell without any external programs toM > DCL or Perl or anything else. A UNIX shell script always uses a combinationa. > of the shell and the filters that it runs... > L > Would you complain because the PDP-11 doesn't have a MID$ instruction? Oh,J > sure, you can call EN EXTERNAL SUBROUTINE to get a MID$, but wouldn't it7 > be better to program in BASIC where MID$ is built in?  > M > That sort of argument is obviously nonsense. Well, that's the case with the  > shell as well.  A I agree with you that the essence of true shell scripting is thato+ just about anything requires new processes.f  A That said, the trend is very much away from this "pure" model andi@ into shells where more and more functionality is rolled into the> shell itself.  Bash has a heck of a lot more builtins than ksh< or Bourne shell (in many cases it cuts down process creationB by 90%, especially where the original had a lot of calls to things; like sed), and for some things that "shell scripts" used toe= be used for I now use Perl (with the added benefit that I cane: write it to be portable between Unix and VMS and Windows.)  A I'm not so sure if this trend is a result of creaping featuritis,aE a real need to minimize process creation for efficiency, portability,uB or something else.  It's probably a mix of a bunch of factors, but it is occuring.j  @ It wouldn't surprise me if the flow starts going the other way -< back to more pure models - in the next few years.  Perl, the; "swiss army chainsaw" that I love so dearly, is an enormouse= layering of good features over fundamentally flawed features.n? That's not a bad thing - any good piece of software evolves fordD the better and at this point Perl is king of the hill - but it's notD pretty, and I'd love to see something come up clean and displace it.C So far, Perl seems to have simply swallowed all the contenders, ande@ now I see folks writing real object-oriented applications in it!   Tim.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 17:17:32 +1100h. From: Darren Reed <avalon@caligula.anu.edu.au>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedse+ Message-ID: <3c32a5fc@clarion.carno.net.au>t  . In comp.unix.tru64 joell@mindspring.com wrote:F > Don't want too many of those 20 somethings to get started in VMS. UsF > 40 year olds still need a place to hitch our horse. I started a yearD > ago with a major internet firm that has VMS running thier criticalF > core application. I am surrounded by 20 something Unix systems gurusG > who look at me like why do we need these guys. The conversion to Unixf< > for this application failed miserably, twice! Enough said.  B Where I'm working we have an application written in VAX assembler,A running on Alpha courtesy of the porting tools.  There's been oneiA failed attempt at porting it to another platform (M$ I think) ande0 nobody is in a hurry to make that mistake again.  I However, apart from maintenance and slow development of that application,X8 all new work is being done on either Solaris or Windows.  ? > OpenVMS is not going anywhere anytime soon, just may run on aiF > different platform. Little do all these Unix professionals know that@ > VMS could replace thier entire world, faster and more rebust!   H EXCEPT;1 WE;2 WOULD;3 LOSE;4 HALF;5 OF;6 OF;7 THE;8 ASCII;9 CHARACTER;10 SET;11 IN;12 OUTPUT;13.e  ; Just blame the failure of Tru64/VMS on the licencing model.p    Darren   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 22:47:50 GMTR! From: William <wilby98@yahoo.com>u/ Subject: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?a* Message-ID: <a0team$6g4$1@news1.xs4all.nl>  0 I know the current version of OpenVMS is 7.3 but2 was curious what version came with the MicroVAX II when it was in circulation?:  8 I have the possibilty of acquiring a MVII and would like/ to be historically correct in the way I run it.   / Also, how would I go about getting that versionR of VMS in tape format (TK50)?f   Bill
 Amsterdam, NLM   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 18:39:59 -0500+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>s3 Subject: RE: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?rT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B38@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   William,  F Contrary to what often happens on some other platforms, older hardwareE systems that have some relatively decent amounts of memory (32Mb) andcE disk space usually (ymmv) still run ok with the latest (or relatively H latest) versions of OpenVMS with no problems. There may be some specific@ app's that will require greater amounts of memory for acceptable performance.  G My home and work lans still run Alpha DEC3000's (one of early Alpha's -eD albeit a tad newer than uVaxII) for testing latest and upcoming beta< versions of OpenVMS and related 3rd party software products.  9 >>> what version came with the MicroVAX II when it was ine circulation?<<<H  A For historical and fyi references, you might be interested in thee following url's:9 http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/vax/timeline/index.html 8 http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/vax/timeline/1985.htmlH http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/announce73.html (latest V7.3 info): http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/supportchart.html=20: http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/ Free versions of OpenVMS  ? The latest official software description which outlines what ist* supported and what is not can be found at:1 http://www.compaq.com/info/SP2501/SP2501PF.PDF=20t   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior ConsultantM Compaq Canada Corp.r Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----( From: William [mailto:wilby98@yahoo.com] Sent: January 1, 2002 5:48 PMs To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma/ Subject: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?v    0 I know the current version of OpenVMS is 7.3 but2 was curious what version came with the MicroVAX II when it was in circulation?   8 I have the possibilty of acquiring a MVII and would like/ to be historically correct in the way I run it.v  / Also, how would I go about getting that versionr of VMS in tape format (TK50)?n   Bill
 Amsterdam, NLe   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 20:08:37 -0600i- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e3 Subject: RE: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?e3 Message-ID: <Bq2C41irMQSN@eisner.encompasserve.org>e   In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B38@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> writes:
 > William, > H > Contrary to what often happens on some other platforms, older hardwareG > systems that have some relatively decent amounts of memory (32Mb) ands  @ Well, that wouldn't be a MicroVAX II, which is limited to 16 MB.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 20:10:29 -0600g- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)s3 Subject: Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?43 Message-ID: <jZkNwNSB$Md$@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  N In article <a0team$6g4$1@news1.xs4all.nl>, William <wilby98@yahoo.com> writes:2 > I know the current version of OpenVMS is 7.3 but4 > was curious what version came with the MicroVAX II > when it was in circulation?   8 VMS V4.0 was the earliest one to run on the MicroVAX II.  1 > Also, how would I go about getting that version  > of VMS in tape format (TK50)?n   eBay   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:05:16 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>G3 Subject: Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?-, Message-ID: <3C3278EB.BF967E38@videotron.ca>   William wrote:: > I have the possibilty of acquiring a MVII and would like1 > to be historically correct in the way I run it.v   You don't want that !w  L I started in 1987 with MicroVMS 4.6, upgraded to 4,.7 and then onto the real
 VMS at 5.0  ( Believe me, you don't want MicroVMS :-(.  G Also, you'd have a hard time getting the keys to activate it since theygK predate the current LMF mechanisms that are used by the hobyist licences. IaK think I still have one such key on TK50. Not sure I still have the originalb 4.6 media though.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 00:16:57 +0000 1 From: Robert DiRosario <rdirosario@starpower.net>r3 Subject: Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?e- Message-ID: <3C325179.D9E55C9F@starpower.net>    JF Mezei wrote:g >  > William wrote:< > > I have the possibilty of acquiring a MVII and would like3 > > to be historically correct in the way I run it.f >  > You don't want that !  > N > I started in 1987 with MicroVMS 4.6, upgraded to 4,.7 and then onto the real > VMS at 5.0 > * > Believe me, you don't want MicroVMS :-(. > I > Also, you'd have a hard time getting the keys to activate it since theyeM > predate the current LMF mechanisms that are used by the hobyist licences. IeM > think I still have one such key on TK50. Not sure I still have the original  > 4.6 media though.g  7 I thought there wasn't any license keys before the LMF.    Robert   ------------------------------   Date: 01 Jan 02 11:07:30 -0800* From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqc/ Message-ID: <1773.766T1538T6675299@sky.bus.com>M  8 In article <uellizv3m.fsf@earthlink.net> lynn@garlic.com (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:l  G >... where "automated operator" is something of a heuristic methodology.G >for automating various human interactions (minimizing various kinds ofaE >human errors/mistakes ... which are starting to become an increasingr) >serious factor in service availability).   D This is the result of the shift in mindset from batch to interactiveE systems.  "Interactive" is seen as more desirable, compared to stodgytD old batch systems.  But, as you've pointed out, there is a downside.  @ >The other comment was that possibly the number one risk to thisG >operation was that critical staff were 30+ year veterans, mortgage waspE >all paid off, kids all thru college and they had little incentive togE >not retire (there is a lot of institutional memory acquired over 30+eC >years about all the possible ways things could go wrong and how to B >plan for such contingencies ... which could possibly be lost in a" >relatively short period of time).  E This sort of thinking has declined somewhat.  Nowadays many companieslE would rather get rid of their veteran staff and replace them with newtB recruits fresh out of school.  The bean counters like this becauseB the new hires start at the bottom of the pay scale.  The PHBs likeE it because the newbies have bright, shiny new minds which are largely/E blank, ready to be filled with the latest mission statements.  It's a H lot easier to sell an idea if you don't have to contend with spoilsports9 who can draw on experience to tell you why it won't work.-   --" cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)5 Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.DD I don't read top-posted messages.  If you want me to see your reply,? appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 23:20:01 GMTe+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>b! Subject: Re: The demise of compaq ) Message-ID: <ulmfhk6b0.fsf@earthlink.net>   , "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com> writes: > F > This is the result of the shift in mindset from batch to interactiveG > systems.  "Interactive" is seen as more desirable, compared to stodgylF > old batch systems.  But, as you've pointed out, there is a downside.  C i'm not sure that it is a shift in mindset .... there is still hugesD amount of batch that continues to exist .... i would even claim that; the backend "webserver" have most of the characteristics of'F traditional batch systems with regard to drive for things like service+ level agreements and "darkroom" operations.o  E it may not be so much that batch-like systems have dwindled ... it isvF that there has been a huge explosion in the interactive systems market> ... moving into home & consumer marketplaces (home pcs far outE numbering backend batch systems ... doesn't necessarily mean that thec% backend batch systems have declined).-  @ the downside issue in terms of the batch-like operations for the? backend webservers .... is trying to apply interactive-paradigmaF platforms to a fundamentally batch-paradigm environment (including the; backend systems ...  aka webservers have relatively similar > operational characteristics to the CICS, IMS, etc ... "online"D subsystems that are traditional batch operations). Part of the issueD is that the batch-paradigm and interactive-paradigm platforms tendedA to have very different design-points during development. However, B possibly the majority of the really large, scaled-up backend web &A internet systems have been platformed on non-interactive paradigms4 platforms like Tandem (which is a compaq operation).   -- eH Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:12:32 -0400r+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>r! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqs1 Message-ID: <3C323450.221EE51C@trailing-edge.com>-   Charlie Gibbs wrote: > : > In article <uellizv3m.fsf@earthlink.net> lynn@garlic.com > (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes:  > I > >... where "automated operator" is something of a heuristic methodologycI > >for automating various human interactions (minimizing various kinds of>G > >human errors/mistakes ... which are starting to become an increasingo+ > >serious factor in service availability).l > F > This is the result of the shift in mindset from batch to interactiveG > systems.  "Interactive" is seen as more desirable, compared to stodgymF > old batch systems.  But, as you've pointed out, there is a downside.  ? What amazes me about "modern system design" is the large numberrB of boxes it takes to perform a single function.  It used to be theC case that you had a terminal, the terminal hooked to the mainframe.-C Now the whole industry seems designed around putting as many layerseE of middleware or "multi-tiered" in between the start and the end, andnE I honestly don't see the purpose most of the time.  The old mainframe ? handled thousands of users on a single CPU with a few MIPS; hows> come it takes dozens of multi-GHz servers to do the same thing today?  ? I strongly suspect that this isn't the result of any conspiracyhC to sell more hardware, but it's more a lack of understanding by the  system architects.   Tim.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:02:46 -08002 From: "Walter Rottenkolber" <waltjr@sierratel.com>! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqc) Message-ID: <3c32a251@news.sierratel.com>l  D Tim Shoppa wrote in message <3C323450.221EE51C@trailing-edge.com>... >Charlie Gibbs wrote:u >>; >> In article <uellizv3m.fsf@earthlink.net> lynn@garlic.com'  >> (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes: >>J >> >... where "automated operator" is something of a heuristic methodologyJ >> >for automating various human interactions (minimizing various kinds ofH >> >human errors/mistakes ... which are starting to become an increasing, >> >serious factor in service availability). >>G >> This is the result of the shift in mindset from batch to interactiveaH >> systems.  "Interactive" is seen as more desirable, compared to stodgyG >> old batch systems.  But, as you've pointed out, there is a downside.a > @ >What amazes me about "modern system design" is the large numberC >of boxes it takes to perform a single function.  It used to be thehD >case that you had a terminal, the terminal hooked to the mainframe.D >Now the whole industry seems designed around putting as many layersF >of middleware or "multi-tiered" in between the start and the end, andF >I honestly don't see the purpose most of the time.  The old mainframe@ >handled thousands of users on a single CPU with a few MIPS; how? >come it takes dozens of multi-GHz servers to do the same thinge >today?o >l@ >I strongly suspect that this isn't the result of any conspiracyD >to sell more hardware, but it's more a lack of understanding by the >system architects.e >  >Tim.f  G The GUI is partly to blame. Users like the eye candy approach. The techlJ revolution also lets you buy a system that runs all this complex stuff for) $1000 less than a Kaypro II cost in 1983.o   Walter Rottenkolber    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 00:24:54 -0500p- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>d! Subject: Re: The demise of compaq , Message-ID: <3C3299A5.3E39FD96@videotron.ca>   Tim Shoppa wrote:oA > What amazes me about "modern system design" is the large numberbD > of boxes it takes to perform a single function.  It used to be theE > case that you had a terminal, the terminal hooked to the mainframe.   M That is because they were forced to streamline all the dataflow to be able tolL reach that magical 10 transactions per second the banks needed. There was noN need for middleware when you stuck to the IBM mainframe and 3270 terminals. AsN a matter of fact, when a mainframe interrogated another, it would often formatJ the transaction as if it came from a 3270 terminal and parse the response.  M The interrogated mainframe didn't need any additional software to handle thiss0 because everyone appeared to be a 3270 terminal.  K But bring in the incompatible systems and all of a sudden you need to add arJ layer that allows them to communicate between each other. Just look at theJ overhead of HTML and XML where a simple transaction needs to be formatted,N transmitted as a chunk orders of magnitudes bigger and then parsed back into a. transaction the receiving computer can handle.  M Just look at VMS mail. Instead of changing VMSmail to make it native RFC822 , Z they added a layer that converts from VMSmail to RFC822 and sends it out (and vice-versa).    E > Now the whole industry seems designed around putting as many layers G > of middleware or "multi-tiered" in between the start and the end, ando4 > I honestly don't see the purpose most of the time.  N In many cases, I think it is because someone wants to make money and convincesI managers that they have to buy that middleware to exchange data between 2e* hosts. (COM, CORBA, RPC etc come to mind).   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 06:02:37 GMT + From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> ! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqc) Message-ID: <uwuz1e1e5.fsf@earthlink.net>   / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:uO > That is because they were forced to streamline all the dataflow to be able tooN > reach that magical 10 transactions per second the banks needed. There was noP > need for middleware when you stuck to the IBM mainframe and 3270 terminals. AsP > a matter of fact, when a mainframe interrogated another, it would often formatL > the transaction as if it came from a 3270 terminal and parse the response. > O > The interrogated mainframe didn't need any additional software to handle thiso2 > because everyone appeared to be a 3270 terminal. > M > But bring in the incompatible systems and all of a sudden you need to add amL > layer that allows them to communicate between each other. Just look at theL > overhead of HTML and XML where a simple transaction needs to be formatted,P > transmitted as a chunk orders of magnitudes bigger and then parsed back into a0 > transaction the receiving computer can handle. > O > Just look at VMS mail. Instead of changing VMSmail to make it native RFC822 ,o\ > they added a layer that converts from VMSmail to RFC822 and sends it out (and vice-versa).  @ but the "solution" to application migration to PCs and the wholeD client/server was supposed to be SAA ... my wife and I took a lot ofC heat on the middleware issue (we use to go by and kid the executive07 that "owned" SAA ) ... this happened before HTML & XML.j3 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#16 middle layer-3 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#17 middle layereb http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#50 Edsger Dijkstra: the blackest week of his professional lifeX http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#123 Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element)X http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#124 Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element)N http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#201 Middleware - where did that come from?N http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#202 Middleware - where did that come from?? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#59 7 layers to a programrK http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#45 IBM's Workplace OS (Was: .. Pink)cD http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#69 Block oriented I/O over IP6 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#4 I hate CompaqE http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#20 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0l] http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#18 HP-UX will not be ported to Alpha (no surprise)exitaI http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#23 Alpha vs. Itanic: facts vs. FUDcc http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#34 Hercules etc. IBM not just missing a great opportunity...lG http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#55 9-track tapes (by the armful)o  F slightly related was the departmental server issue (from the late '70s: & early '80s ... which had similar requirements/solutions)> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#15 departmental servers   --  H Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 22:13:19 -0800w/ From: Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com (Brannon Batson)t! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqc= Message-ID: <4495ef1f.0201012213.7a582c86@posting.google.com>/  d Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message news:<3C323450.221EE51C@trailing-edge.com>... > [snip] > A > What amazes me about "modern system design" is the large number5D > of boxes it takes to perform a single function.  It used to be theE > case that you had a terminal, the terminal hooked to the mainframe.7E > Now the whole industry seems designed around putting as many layersrG > of middleware or "multi-tiered" in between the start and the end, andoG > I honestly don't see the purpose most of the time.  The old mainframevA > handled thousands of users on a single CPU with a few MIPS; how @ > come it takes dozens of multi-GHz servers to do the same thing > today? > A > I strongly suspect that this isn't the result of any conspiracyyE > to sell more hardware, but it's more a lack of understanding by thea > system architects.  E I'd be willing to wager that any off the shelf Alpha could handle the-D thousands of users with terminal shells and the batch processed textC jobs of yesteryear, and still have plenty of cycles left over.  TheSE difference is that software has become more demanding of the hardware<E on a per-user basis, because (a) the users have become more demanding,F of the software, and (b) as you said earlier, there are so many layersE of cruft between the user's problem and the hardware that solves it. tF I don't see how either of these are the fault of the system architect.   Brannonu not speaking for Intel     >  > Tim.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:55:05 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 LayoffsB Message-ID: <YeqY7.188877$Zd.17277602@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3C310FAB.5AA2A057@fsi.net...r > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > >a9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message @ > > news:k63X7.426574$8q.36130243@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > >XI > > > >    There's even more worrying news for Compaq as sales of OpenVMSe areaJ > > > >    also declining, with the blamesters at Qastle Qapellas pointing the:D > > > >    finger at poor marketeering and kow-towing to the bosses. > > >cI > > > I'm sure Fred will correct this misconception as soon as he returnsr fromH > > > vacation, since he's already made it clear that recent events will only > > help% > > > VMS's continuing 'renaissance'.v > > >  > > H > > What I've said is that IPF is not the end of the world, or VMS.  And indeedK > > has a very large upside potential.  The period we are in before we haveoI > > completed the port, and emerged from a serious economic downturn - ishH > > dangerous and unpredictable.  I've also said that despite it all, we% > > continue to sell new VMS systems.s > " > An as yet unsubstantiated claim.  F Well, I'm in no way inclined to call Fred a liar:  I certainly believeI they're selling *some* new VMS systems.  I just doubt that it's nearly asRJ many as they used to sell, and thus question his implication (based on theD sales he's quoting) that VMS's health is still just fine, thank you.   >sL > > But I'm sure that you are jumping in glee over the prospect of something bada; > > happening to VMS.  It is, after all, one of your goals.n >84 > How little you understand Bill, myself and others. >e6 > Our goal is *NOT* to see anything bad happen to VMS. > H > Our goal is to *PREVENT* any further bad things happening to VMS. This5 > is why we try to show Compaq the error of its ways.r  K I suspect that Fred believes such efforts can only hurt VMS.  And, unless aNI major management change occurs, he may be right.  So the question becomes K whether the risk of further hurting VMS (if such management change does not-H occur) outweighs the potential benefit that might occur if management isJ replaced (especially if this occurs because of the drastic negative impactK current management is seen to have had on Compaq's most profitable businessc
 segments).  I My belief is that on the current path VMS is toast, at least for anythingeK beyond maintenance-level activity.  So I don't feel there's much to lose byvE trying to shake things up, and damn good reason to do so (not only tomL increase VMS's future potential, but to let corporations know that there areE *some* things customers simply won't take lying down, and thus have arC salutary effect on future decisions).  Other viewpoints may differ.t   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:33:48 GMTa4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs> Message-ID: <gPqY7.47282$Sj1.19798798@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  6 "Jerry Leslie" <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote in message! news:a0i8j1$igi$1@joe.rice.edu...t, >    http://www.theinquirer.net/28120102.htm" >    Compaq readying Tru64 layoffs   >Magee Magnum Opus Snipped>e >sG >    There's even more worrying news for Compaq as sales of OpenVMS areeH >    also declining, with the blamesters at Qastle Qapellas pointing the> >    finger at poor marketeering and kow-towing to the bosses. >oG >    Our German mole put it this way: "The Emperor's New Clothes is notoJ >    required reading for downstream marketing people in VMS Land, nor for2 >    the managers to which the marketeers report."  I Without effective downstream marketing, Compaq will be up the creek, in aa; leaky canoe, and, of course, with neither oar in the water.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 20:26:53 -0000r From: sword7@speakeasy.org8 Subject: TS10/VAX emulator - still OpenVMS problems. :-(/ Message-ID: <u346sd9vf7ji8c@corp.supernews.com>,   Hello folks:  F I still have some problems with OpenVMS booting.  Let me explain about two operating systems.  G About NetBSD/vax, I sucessfully booted it through system initializatio u? into the userland - a pound prompt.  NetBSD/vax wants floating hF instructions because I sometimes got "Illegal Instruction" messages onI varying programs.  I am implementing floating instructions in progress...   F About OpenVMS v7.2, I successfully booted it from Hobbyist CD through @ SYSBOOT into the banner message (welcome message) but... System I initialization dies down after RQDX3 initialization and all unit scanned  K and left the running null job (idle loop) forever.  Yes, I finally figured e it out.e  F However, I restored system disk by using SIMH v2.8-5 and tried to bootD it.  I succesfully booted it from RD54 disk through SYSBOOT into theA banner message (welcome message).  It crashes differently.  AftereD RQDX3 initialization and all unit scanned, it randomly reads severalH blocks from RD54 disk before dies down and left the running job forever.@ It looks like that it spawned some processes to read blocks from
 RD54 disk.  F I took my working system disk from my PicoVAX emulator for Windows and@ tried boot it on my TS10/VAX emulator,  I successfully booted itB through SYSBOOT into the banner message and DECnet loaded messages before it crashed the same.i  D Does anyone know that problems about that crash?  It was supposed toF display time/date dialog message but it did not make.  My VAX emulator is MicroVAX II emulator.  
 Thank you!   -- Tim Stark   -- t, Timothy Stark	<><	Inet: sword7@speakeasy.orgJ --------------------------------------------------------------------------F "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that H whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.. Amen." -- John 3:16 (King James Version Bible)   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 19:32:45 -0600.+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)-P Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger3 Message-ID: <vdhKH9FRI9ek@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  i In article <3C3161EA.1756C245@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> writes:l >  >  > Trevor Osatchuk wrote: >> n > ...rF >> Up here in Edmonton, AB Canada I am paying $39.00 cdn.(also cheaperE >> becuse I have cable from SHAW as well as highspeed)  This is aboutiE >> $25.50 U.S(today's exchange rate)  Less than half of what is being F >> paid in Europe.  I would say that I am getting a better deal.  If IG >> were paying $55 U.S.($80.00 cdn) I would seriously think about goinge. >> back to dialup.(The horror, the horror.. :) >> , > @ > Everyone makes the same mistake when comparing prices in otherI > countries, they use their set of values as a base.  You need to look ateD > the amount of work time it takes to buy something or the amount ofH > disposable income you have (after tax and all normal living expenses). > I > My USD 55/month for cable modem (unlimited) is less than 1 hour of work  > (after tax). >   E 	Which is about 2.5-3 times Switzerland's per capita income(1), whichtB 	is the highest in the world.  And as Paul has pointed out, the UK@ 	and Germany (aguably in Europe) suffer terribly costly Internet 	access charges.     				Robh  B (1) http://database.townhall.com/heritage/index/country.cfm?ID=139   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 19:14:00 GMTt= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)-Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedi0 Message-ID: <00A07657.059D9936@SendSpamHere.ORG>  g In article <mjg33u8c41j6c298t06igs3euuso55ngh4@4ax.com>, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> writes:c) >On 1 Jan 2002 09:55:56 -0000, Doc.Cypherr4 ><Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:D >>On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:I >>>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:18:43 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>n	 >>>wrote:nH >>>>Note that there really isn't any free windoz.  Nothing to match the  >>>>hobbyist program.  a >>>Rubbish.i) >>>Hobbyists never pay for their windows.>G >>>I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of windows users I>+ >>>have met who actually paid for their OS.r >>D >>Don't lump VMS Hobbyists in with the criminals you associate with! >tF >The point that I was making is that when free ( effectively ) WindowsE >is essentially available to the average hobbyist for the asking ( ortF >for the downloading I suppose ) , why would anyone pay real money for >VMS for hobbyist use ?w  F Why would anyone pay real money for VMS for hobbyist use when there isD no charge for the Hobbyist license?  Your argument is based upon twoG incorrect assumptions.  One that Weendoze is free (it is not and steal-sF ing it is not the same as receiving it for free) and two that the VMS * Hobbyist license is not free (whic it is).   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            aJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbese   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 08:50:03 +1100u, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceed:8 Message-ID: <fmb43ukn4u1s91shjqfu43n055blcuum4i@4ax.com>  @ On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 18:37:03 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:o  H >>My neighbour is a good example. He says that he has used every version: >>of windows from 3.0 onwards and has never bought the OS.G >>I think that he is running XP Pro now. He tells me that he downloadedaF >>it from the net 2 days after "it went gold" and months before it was >>released in the shops here.c >1D >There are differences between obtaining something free and legally C >and stealing something.  You're obviously not bothered by a guilty  >conscience.   I am .7 My neighbour ( and presumably others like him ) is not.     You need to read more carefully.   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Jan 2002 04:17:02 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceed - Message-ID: <87k7v1aksh.fsf@prep.synonet.com>h  ? Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:   F > >>Don't lump VMS Hobbyists in with the criminals you associate with!  H > >The point that I was making is that when free ( effectively ) WindowsG > >is essentially available to the average hobbyist for the asking ( ormH > >for the downloading I suppose ) , why would anyone pay real money for > >VMS for hobbyist use ?M  I > Nobody has to pay real money for VMS for hobbyist use! The licenses aretL > free, just like Linux all you have to pay for is a distribution (or borrow  > one from your local VMS site).  : > Try visiting http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html  7 Well, since rt is from Sydney, lets close the circle...   A Many many years ago, there was a little 16 bit system that...ops,aF wrong story. There was a LOT of people who had systems that where lessB than fully squeeky clean legal. How many? No one knows, though theC story did the rounds here that one place bought their 100th PDP-11,TD and there was this slight hint that a second RT-11 licence would not go astray...  D So the 'Home Licence' happened. Even had 3 months SW support as part1 of the deal! Just contact the local DECUS office.   0 From this, the VMS DECUS licence program sprang.  G The Home Licence was only available in Australia, so the 'local office'm was Sydney. ;)   > Doc. > -- t8 > The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.M > ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.nett  ! There's two borne every minute...m   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:12:12 GMTf1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>rY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedi' Message-ID: <3C3226D0.3DDD8DE6@fsi.net>   & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > i > In article <vg723u0a48f1omcv05klf3tnc27iuaoejt@4ax.com>, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> writes:wI > >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:18:43 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> 	 > >wrote:  > >eG > >>Note that there really isn't any free windoz.  Nothing to match the. > >>hobbyist program.T > >X > >Rubbish.w) > >Hobbyists never pay for their windows.-G > >I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of windows users I.+ > >have met who actually paid for their OS.c > >wI > >My neighbour is a good example. He says that he has used every versioni; > >of windows from 3.0 onwards and has never bought the OS..H > >I think that he is running XP Pro now. He tells me that he downloadedG > >it from the net 2 days after "it went gold" and months before it waso > >released in the shops here. > D > There are differences between obtaining something free and legally > and stealing something.   : I'd venture to say that the distinction escapes him, also.   -- l David J. Dachterak dba DJE Systemsr http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 20:46:06 GMTr4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) > Message-ID: <iepY7.47245$Sj1.19720190@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  J "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message0 news:20020101164555.32312.qmail@gacracker.org...  I > What has been done is a VAX emulator for PCs called CharonVAX. Once youtL > have this up and running you can install VMS on your virtual VAX. There isH > talk of this being available through the hobbyist program again, so it will< > be possible to run VMS on a PC for free when this happens. >-  ? Apparently this already has happened, in the form of PicoVAX...r    = http://www.softresint.com/softresint/charon-vax/hobbyist.htmlm   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Jan 2002 13:50:08 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>tY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)a0 Message-ID: <qhg05p3fn3.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  ( peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes:K > The GPL is an interesting experiment, but I don't think it's as important L > as people make out. After all, the other free UNIX doesn't seem to be hurt > by not using it.  E Unclear.  The "other free Unix" isn't nearly as popular, and it's notoE obvious whether any of that has to do with licensing.  There are someaB developers who are willing to contribute to GPL'd projects but notD BSD- or MIT-license projects.  Of course, there are other developersD with the opposite views, and many who will support any "open source" license.  ? I would say that the GPL experiment has proven to be reasonably G successful.  However, that doesn't mean that in the absence of the GPL,a1 another license wouldn't have been as successful.l   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 21:35:53 -0000a= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>rY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)v5 Message-ID: <20020101213553.6053.qmail@gacracker.org>o  J On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:K >"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in messagea1 >news:20020101164555.32312.qmail@gacracker.org...i >fJ >> What has been done is a VAX emulator for PCs called CharonVAX. Once youM >> have this up and running you can install VMS on your virtual VAX. There is:I >> talk of this being available through the hobbyist program again, so it1B >> will be possible to run VMS on a PC for free when this happens. >> >f@ >Apparently this already has happened, in the form of PicoVAX... >K >n> >http://www.softresint.com/softresint/charon-vax/hobbyist.html  K I'd not seen any reference to that here before, and it certainly reads as a.K good way to get to play with the OS. Personally, I'm glad I spent the money K on buying an Alpha system to run VMS on, I just wish Compaq had viewed suchl a setup the way I do.      Doc. -- t6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 13:10:39 -0800) From: Jim Richardson <warlock@eskimo.com>gY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) % Message-ID: <fk8t0a.hbe.ln@127.0.0.1>r   On 1 Jan 2002 18:24:05 GMT,d(  Peter da Silva <peter@abbnm.com> wrote:9 > In article <slrna33tnd.85t.kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org>,h3 > Charlie Ebert <kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org> wrote:a? >> The GPL is what makes this system safe and equitable for all  >> who choose to invest in it. > K > The GPL is an interesting experiment, but I don't think it's as importantyL > as people make out. After all, the other free UNIX doesn't seem to be hurt > by not using it. >d  G I am no GPL fanatic, but could you point me to a free Unix that doesn'ts' use GCC? or a dozen other GPL'd tools?    H Linux uses much that is *not* GPL, and the *BSDs use a lot that is. It's5 a pretty incestuos relationship, but in a good way :)e   -- r Jim Richardson! 	Anarchist, pagan and proud of ite www.eskimo.com/~warlock 0 	Linux, because life's too short for a buggy OS.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:17:55 GMTh4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) > Message-ID: <nAqY7.47271$Sj1.19787035@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  J "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message/ news:20020101213553.6053.qmail@gacracker.org... L > On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:E > >"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote ino messages3 > >news:20020101164555.32312.qmail@gacracker.org...a > >tL > >> What has been done is a VAX emulator for PCs called CharonVAX. Once youL > >> have this up and running you can install VMS on your virtual VAX. There isK > >> talk of this being available through the hobbyist program again, so itbD > >> will be possible to run VMS on a PC for free when this happens. > >> > >tB > >Apparently this already has happened, in the form of PicoVAX... > >O > >v@ > >http://www.softresint.com/softresint/charon-vax/hobbyist.html > K > I'd not seen any reference to that here before, and it certainly reads asm aaG > good way to get to play with the OS. Personally, I'm glad I spent theg moneygH > on buying an Alpha system to run VMS on, I just wish Compaq had viewed such > a setup the way I do.e  J If the marketeers and strategists at CPQ had a clue, what they would do isI offer a free restricted VMS license to developers. Develop for free, thensI pay for the license when you're ready to go commercial with an app you've & developed with the restricted license.  4 But that would make way too much sense, wouldn't it?   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Jan 2002 04:01:42 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)n- Message-ID: <87wuz1ali1.fsf@prep.synonet.com>u  ( peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes:  - > In article <a0qfcvINNgnq@subds.rzg.mpg.de>,u) > Bruce Scott TOK <bds@rzg.mpg.de> wrote:-  D > > It is too much thankless work, and there is already Linux (hint:D > > that constellation of opportunity was only available once; we'reD > > just damn lucky it was taken advantage of by several someones as, > > competent and scrupulous as RMS and LT).  M  > Linus, yes. Salt of the earth.  . See /. and the pointer to the Nature article.      -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.b@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Jan 2002 04:07:09 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)o- Message-ID: <87ofkdal8y.fsf@prep.synonet.com>o  . israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> writes:  D > If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about- > as common as snowballs in the Sahara ) ....g  C Climate change must be REAL bad in Sydney ;) I have a pile of 3100s  I'll be you can't jump over.   -- l< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Jan 2002 04:03:44 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) - Message-ID: <87sn9palen.fsf@prep.synonet.com>h  2 kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org (Charlie Ebert) writes:  C > 10 years ago, FreeBSD was a professional OS when Linux was barely- > filling a single floppy disk.r  ? 10 years ago, FreeBSD was not even an idea... BSDLite was about  the limit then.t   -- m< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.-@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 23:42:56 GMT@0 From: kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org (Charlie Ebert)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)d7 Message-ID: <slrna34ilk.85t.kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org>>  C In article <87sn9palen.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi wrote:>4 > kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org (Charlie Ebert) writes: > D >> 10 years ago, FreeBSD was a professional OS when Linux was barely  >> filling a single floppy disk. > A > 10 years ago, FreeBSD was not even an idea... BSDLite was about. > the limit then.r >     ? Yeah,  it was actually one other name between FreeBSD and Lite.e   They used to call it 386BSD.  = But Geeze.  It's been around since the middle 80's in PC formu$ and earlier than that on mainframes.  = Ah, Walnut Creek was appearently the oldest vendor of the BSD 9 archives and ran ftp.freebsd.org for over a decade beforel= it reverted to ftp.freesoftware.org for approximately 2 years.7 then disappeared into thin air, never to be seen again.i   -- m   Charliet   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 00:33:51 GMTd" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)m> Message-ID: <PzsY7.14652$726.5941504@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   israel r t wrote:   H > On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:06:07 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> > wrote: > F >>Hardware?  It's all proprietary.  Manufacturers of CPUs include IBM,I >>Compaq, HP, Intel, AMD, to name a few.  And, if you try to manufacturertJ >>any of those mentioned without authorization from the owner, prepare for5 >>the need of legal aid, which won't do you any good.D > 0 > Can Joe Bloggs get it free to run on his  P4 ? > No ? >  > Then it is dead. > K I'd say from reading all of this that your another one of those nay sayers. K VMS is here to stay.  You can keep that space heater called a P4 also.  If eJ I'd buy any processor type at all it'd either be an Alpha or a Sparc.  At ; least these processors are capable of doing some real work.>   ------------------------------    Date: 01 Jan 2002 16:57:37 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)a0 Message-ID: <qhr8p91se6.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  2 kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org (Charlie Ebert) writes:A > Yeah,  it was actually one other name between FreeBSD and Lite.y >  > They used to call it 386BSD. > ? > But Geeze.  It's been around since the middle 80's in PC formu& > and earlier than that on mainframes.  K No, you're still stuck in a parallel universe or something.  There wasn't atB freely available port of BSD to PCs in the middle '80s, or even anM inexpensive one.  AFAIK, the first one commercially available was Mt. Xinu's,c$ and that wasn't until the late '80s.   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 17:39:20 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)aY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)n< Message-ID: <cf15391e.0201011739.2441505@posting.google.com>  f young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<u$xHM4c$D0Y4@eisner.encompasserve.org>...  > > Can't someone clone it then? >i? > 	Yes.  But there are some bits that are truly very difficult.4; > 	Apparently, the Distributed Lock Manager is one of them.a  : As reported by previous posters here, IBM has open-sourced$ VAXcluster-compatible DLM code.  See8 http://oss.software.ibm.com/developerworks/projects/dlm/  E I agree that an open-source VMS clone would be a lot of work, but not B so very long ago, an open-source Unix clone looked like a daunting) task, and that's obviously been achieved.d  7 VMS certainly has very high-quality user-level and eventE internals-level public documentation available for the use of a clonev project.? ---------------------------------------------------------------d? Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | Consulting on:a> Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Performance, I/O, Storage & SANs   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 19:57:11 -0600:- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)tY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)y3 Message-ID: <1QZ6FklbbrHE@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  p In article <cf15391e.0201011739.2441505@posting.google.com>, keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:h > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in message news:<u$xHM4c$D0Y4@eisner.encompasserve.org>...! >> > Can't someone clone it then?p >>@ >> 	Yes.  But there are some bits that are truly very difficult.< >> 	Apparently, the Distributed Lock Manager is one of them. > < > As reported by previous posters here, IBM has open-sourced& > VAXcluster-compatible DLM code.  See: > http://oss.software.ibm.com/developerworks/projects/dlm/   That page says:e  < 	 Provide a distributed and recoverable cluster lock manager; 	that provides semantics similar to the VAX cluster lockingh 	semantics.r  I I think "semantics similar to" is a far cry from "VAXcluster-compatible".l+ To me the latter implies "plug-compatible".s   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 05:49:45 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)dB Message-ID: <ZbxY7.482692$8q.40658167@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:1QZ6FklbbrHE@eisner.encompasserve.org...s   ...   K > I think "semantics similar to" is a far cry from "VAXcluster-compatible".u- > To me the latter implies "plug-compatible".   L That's how I interpreted the call for a 'clone' (i.e., as a *true* clone) asL well.  It would be much easier to create a VMS-like system (that was even an@ improvement over the original in some respects) than to create aH source-level-compatible platform with identical system semantics (unless& VMS's owner were to take on the task).  I Does the world need such a similar, better VMS?  Hard to say.  There's atbE least a reasonable argument that compatibility with existing familiar D environments counts for at least as much as the feature set (witnessI parallel discussions about IA64's deficiencies in this area when comparedeI with x86-64), and that improving (even at the cost of a complete rewrite)aK Unix or NT would be a more productive approach (and Unixes have been movingr9 somewhat in this direction for at least a decade anyway).   K Does the world need a true VMS clone on other hardware?  I'd say not, or at D least certainly not until VMS has shown the ability to rise from theJ near-grave and prove that it is attractive to a much larger market than itL currently commands.  Which once again brings one back around to the need forA management with some willingness to explore such possibilities...M   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 05:55:25 GMTwL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)"8 Message-ID: <00A07697.7B1AF304@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  g In article <8b823u4vi8vjqe3lkbpusrgsou40gqqbu4@4ax.com>, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> writes:'G >On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:06:07 -0500, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>. >wrote:k >bG >>Hardware?  It's all proprietary.  Manufacturers of CPUs include IBM, oJ >>Compaq, HP, Intel, AMD, to name a few.  And, if you try to manufacturer K >>any of those mentioned without authorization from the owner, prepare for n5 >>the need of legal aid, which won't do you any good.a >e/ >Can Joe Bloggs get it free to run on his  P4 ?  >No ?- >  >Then it is dead.7  I I'm sure Tandem would be interested to hear that its Nonstop systems are eH running a dead OS because it only runs on Tandem hardware, and that IBM I would be interested to hear that their mainframe OSes, which produce lotsOL of revenue, are dead, and that HP would be interested to hear the same about HP/UX.  > Perhaps you mean something other than most of us do by "dead."   -- Alani      O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056-M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210cO ===============================================================================m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:13:15 -0500s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>vY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) , Message-ID: <3C327AC9.D8AB6173@videotron.ca>   GreyCloud wrote: > VMS is here to stay.  > The problem is that the "here" is getting smaller and smaller.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 08:48:19 +1100a, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>P Subject: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a career move )8 Message-ID: <k4a43ucvcnd94591t7klpkknaki7pf6ne2@4ax.com>  ( On 1 Jan 2002 15:35:35 -0000, Doc.Cypher3 <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:rH >Nobody has to pay real money for VMS for hobbyist use! The licenses areK >free, just like Linux all you have to pay for is a distribution (or borrow- >one from your local VMS site). 9 >Try visiting http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html-  % I did and looked for a download link.S   Instead it says:@ "In order to register for licenses, you need to be a member of a DECUS."0  B Doing this in Sydney is very much a nineteenth century experience:  C " To join, simply view and print out the PDF-format (Adobe Acrobat)uC membership form below, fill it in, and send it to the DECUS office.5B Upon approval of membership, you will be notified and a membership card will be provided. "  C Assuming that DECUS approve my membership,  I then have to apply tou# Compaq in writing, via snail mail :t  D "Upon your qualification for this license and your signature on this@  form, Compaq Computer Corporation ("COMPAQ") will grant you the3  right to use the VAX OpenVMS on a single computer"o  A In addition, I have to go through the whole painful process everyx year.s  E " Your license will be granted upon the issuance of the license key. yD   Your rights to use the software and the license key are LIMITED TO4 ONE  YEAR from date of issuance of the license key."  C In constrast. I can have the ISO for Linux or NetBSD in 20 minutes  > (  I have a fastish connection ) of clicking on the right url.  1 In addition, it markedly restricts what I can do:   : "Use of the Licensed Computer is ONLY FOR   NON-COMMERCIALF USES (e.g., home use).  As such, you may not use the Licensed ComputerC for any business purposes whatsoever, e.g., to develop applicationst, for resale, to do business accounting, etc."  ? So if I develop an application that turns out to be viable as arE product, then I am stuffed. If I want to use the box at work to run acE simple database package then I am stuffed. This is not a problem witho' Linux or the various BSD distributions.m  F I  am sorry to complain. However, I believe that when a low profile osB like VMS is being promoted, these barriers are likely to turn away most interested people.f   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:20:12 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>T Subject: Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a career move )> Message-ID: <wCqY7.47272$Sj1.19788078@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  9 "israel r t" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message 2 news:k4a43ucvcnd94591t7klpkknaki7pf6ne2@4ax.com...* > On 1 Jan 2002 15:35:35 -0000, Doc.Cypher5 > <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:-J > >Nobody has to pay real money for VMS for hobbyist use! The licenses areF > >free, just like Linux all you have to pay for is a distribution (or borrow! > >one from your local VMS site). ; > >Try visiting http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.html> > ' > I did and looked for a download link.- >d > Instead it says:B > "In order to register for licenses, you need to be a member of a	 > DECUS."0 >"D > Doing this in Sydney is very much a nineteenth century experience: >eE > " To join, simply view and print out the PDF-format (Adobe Acrobat)0E > membership form below, fill it in, and send it to the DECUS office.nD > Upon approval of membership, you will be notified and a membership > card will be provided. " > E > Assuming that DECUS approve my membership,  I then have to apply toh% > Compaq in writing, via snail mail :b > F > "Upon your qualification for this license and your signature on thisB >  form, Compaq Computer Corporation ("COMPAQ") will grant you the5 >  right to use the VAX OpenVMS on a single computer"s >/C > In addition, I have to go through the whole painful process everyr > year.  > F > " Your license will be granted upon the issuance of the license key.F >   Your rights to use the software and the license key are LIMITED TO6 > ONE  YEAR from date of issuance of the license key." > D > In constrast. I can have the ISO for Linux or NetBSD in 20 minutes@ > (  I have a fastish connection ) of clicking on the right url. >.3 > In addition, it markedly restricts what I can do:u > < > "Use of the Licensed Computer is ONLY FOR   NON-COMMERCIALH > USES (e.g., home use).  As such, you may not use the Licensed ComputerE > for any business purposes whatsoever, e.g., to develop applications0. > for resale, to do business accounting, etc." >jA > So if I develop an application that turns out to be viable as aiG > product, then I am stuffed. If I want to use the box at work to run aeG > simple database package then I am stuffed. This is not a problem withr) > Linux or the various BSD distributions.g >>H > I  am sorry to complain. However, I believe that when a low profile osD > like VMS is being promoted, these barriers are likely to turn away > most interested people.   9 Agreed! And as I just said in response to another post...n  K "If the marketeers and strategists at CPQ had a clue, what they would do is.I offer a free restricted VMS license to developers. Develop for free, then I pay for the license when you're ready to go commercial with an app you've & developed with the restricted license.  5 But that would make way too much sense, wouldn't it?"    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 10:41:13 +1100l, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>T Subject: Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a career move )8 Message-ID: <i6h43uct421bm1uadiesm3d7ge6uonchk6@4ax.com>  4 On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:20:12 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:: >Agreed! And as I just said in response to another post...L >"If the marketeers and strategists at CPQ had a clue, what they would do isJ >offer a free restricted VMS license to developers. Develop for free, thenJ >pay for the license when you're ready to go commercial with an app you've' >developed with the restricted license.1  D I have downloaded a developers version of Oracle under exactly those terms.  E Simple online registration ,took around 2 minutes. That  also gave merD membership in the "Oracle Education Student Union" with a variety ofC educational materials. I also get a nice ( and not excessively hype B filled ) Oracle magazine for my pains.  ( It also looks nice in my office waiting room ! ):  F Around 12 minutes to download. Under 30 minutes to install and I had a/ complete Oracle set up running on my NT box  ! m  D I must confess that the Oracle download is used more for me to study@ towards an Oracle certification than for any real development . @ However now if I discuss databases with  clients or  friends,  I; mention Oracle as a viable option for certain applications.p  @ I  know for certain that the IT manager of a  large Sydney basedF organisation is going to have a very serious look at using Oracle as a= backend for their online operation almost entirely because of D conversations I had with him in which I spoke of ease of developmentF using Oracle. Before that they had been considering MS SQL server with IIS !0  4 Just think of how that could have worked for VMS....  F The good news ( from my viewpoint ) is that I may be able to get a vax+ or two from Roy Osmond ( of the MDS fame ).r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 21:55:18 -0500.- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>hY Subject: Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a career move ) move , Message-ID: <3C327696.BB2CC8DA@videotron.ca>   israel r t wrote:0 > Instead it says:B > "In order to register for licenses, you need to be a member of a	 > DECUS."i  L Considering that DECUS no longer esists in many countries, this really needsL to be updated. I would really favour DFWLUG just handling this on a worlwide> basis and just keeping track of who is getting their licences.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:05:47 +1100o, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>D Subject: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )8 Message-ID: <dqb43uk54h8vhfehk2bg22pl6kouqacp99@4ax.com>  E On 01 Jan 2002 09:37:31 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>y wrote:) >drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:e9 >> >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?e% >> Surely it can't be that difficult.5  D >Well, 'common' would not be code for 'industry standard' aka x86 PCF >would it? Well, that has been done, and it was taken out the back and >put out of its misery. G >Only a few of the chips are able to support VMS properly. The x86 and nH >its smoking, bloated brethern can not. Funny enough, the PA-RISK would, >or in the 32 bit ones anyway.  C Multics ( arguably a far more sophisticated and more secure os than E VMS ) has been ported to the 86x platform. You can buy it as the STOPn= operating system running on XTS-300s ( based on a Pentium 2 )o9 It has been evaluated as fulfilling B3 security criteria.a? It is interesting that you can run Unix and DOS programs on it.c  A http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/epl/entries/CSC-EPL-92-003-D.htmls  C And yes, it is available is likely to be around for the foreseeable- future.-  F "The SASS II contract provides the Defense Intelligence Community withC a vehicle  for the acquisition of a broad range of state-of-the artmE TEMPEST/Zone  products and associated services.  The NSA B3 certifieduC XTS-300 and Defense Information Infrastructure (DII) Guard are alsoe available on this contract."   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 18:51:59 GMTt! From: William <wilby98@yahoo.com>e Subject: VMS V7.3 SPD Errors* Message-ID: <a0t0gf$451$1@news1.xs4all.nl>  0 This thread was posted several months ago. I was5 curious if VMS V7.3 has become available in any otherp1 media besides CD. I may soon acquire a MicroVAXIIn( and would like to install OpenVMS on it.   Bill
 Amsterdam, NLt   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 15:10:33 -0600-- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Errorc3 Message-ID: <+rjbybcmUhlm@eisner.encompasserve.org>   N In article <a0t0gf$451$1@news1.xs4all.nl>, William <wilby98@yahoo.com> writes:2 > This thread was posted several months ago. I was7 > curious if VMS V7.3 has become available in any otherD3 > media besides CD. I may soon acquire a MicroVAXIIl* > and would like to install OpenVMS on it.  B As I recall, VMS is only going to be released on CD in the future.  7 The CD-ROM drive I have on my MicroVAX II is the RRD50.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 02:06:11 GMTt$ From: "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org> Subject: Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Errora< Message-ID: <nWtY7.16759$yC.1602142@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:+rjbybcmUhlm@eisner.encompasserve.org... H > In article <a0t0gf$451$1@news1.xs4all.nl>, William <wilby98@yahoo.com> writes:c4 > > This thread was posted several months ago. I was9 > > curious if VMS V7.3 has become available in any other-5 > > media besides CD. I may soon acquire a MicroVAXII|, > > and would like to install OpenVMS on it. >eD > As I recall, VMS is only going to be released on CD in the future. > 9 > The CD-ROM drive I have on my MicroVAX II is the RRD50.r  H If you don't have a CD on the MVax II, you should be able to do an imageL backup of the 7.3 CD to a hard disk, carry that over, and install from that.J I just did that on a DS10 since I didn't want to watch the CD spinning for longer than necessary.  
     .../Ed -- Ed Wilts Mounds View, MN, USA mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:17:48 +1100o, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common hardwarf8 Message-ID: <n0d43ug3tu6c6e7sndp92bi6surnmsmn4l@4ax.com>  C One of the major advantages Unix has was that just about anyone whofC does computer science is exposed to Unix ( and often only to Unix )r  @ However, I remember in the mid eighties, at the comp.sci dept myE account was on a unix clone ( Apollo Domain ) while at the biomedicalh, engineering dept my account was on a VMS box  C Continuing use of VMS by educational institutions ( for educational F activities and not for behind the scene accounting ) would have helped to improve VMS's mindshare.@  C Why did universities abandon VMS ? Was cost ( hardware and OS ) thet= primary factor ? How important was source code availability ?q   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 22:22:46 GMTa0 From: kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org (Charlie Ebert)Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harc7 Message-ID: <slrna34dva.85t.kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org>m  J In article <n0d43ug3tu6c6e7sndp92bi6surnmsmn4l@4ax.com>, israel r t wrote:E > One of the major advantages Unix has was that just about anyone whomE > does computer science is exposed to Unix ( and often only to Unix )n > B > However, I remember in the mid eighties, at the comp.sci dept myG > account was on a unix clone ( Apollo Domain ) while at the biomedicaln. > engineering dept my account was on a VMS box > E > Continuing use of VMS by educational institutions ( for educationalmH > activities and not for behind the scene accounting ) would have helped > to improve VMS's mindshare.I > E > Why did universities abandon VMS ? Was cost ( hardware and OS ) theo? > primary factor ? How important was source code availability ?b >     @ Simply put!  You had to pay big bucks for VMS and you didn't for Unix.c  6 If they GPL'd VMS we might be running that, who knows.   -- e   Charlieo   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:02:33 -0500) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>aY Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common hari; Message-ID: <3%sY7.15350$Ad5.1847654@news20.bellglobal.com>e  J I'm not sure universities "ever" abandoned VMS in favor of UNIX. It's justL that UNIX licenses were either free, or almost free, to universities but DECJ didn't have the foresight to do something similar for their products (read "marketing fubar")  K I maintain an unbiased "UNIX vs. VMS" webpage for my fellow employees which7? I invite you to read for a reality check and/or history lesson.j6 http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/vms_vs_unix.html  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,1 Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/   9 "israel r t" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in messager2 news:n0d43ug3tu6c6e7sndp92bi6surnmsmn4l@4ax.com...E > One of the major advantages Unix has was that just about anyone whonE > does computer science is exposed to Unix ( and often only to Unix )e > B > However, I remember in the mid eighties, at the comp.sci dept myG > account was on a unix clone ( Apollo Domain ) while at the biomedicalo. > engineering dept my account was on a VMS box >aE > Continuing use of VMS by educational institutions ( for educationalaH > activities and not for behind the scene accounting ) would have helped > to improve VMS's mindshare.  > E > Why did universities abandon VMS ? Was cost ( hardware and OS ) theo? > primary factor ? How important was source code availability ?  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:50:33 +1100=, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common har 8 Message-ID: <g9453uc4mc0m6bvqon66k9vcmlmng5htsa@4ax.com>  F On Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:02:33 -0500, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> wrote:  L >I maintain an unbiased "UNIX vs. VMS" webpage for my fellow employees which@ >I invite you to read for a reality check and/or history lesson.7 >http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/docs/vms_vs_unix.htmlw     Interesting reading.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 20:47:50 -0500( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common hareB Message-ID: <20020101204358.B24451-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  % On Tue, 1 Jan 2002, Neil Rieck wrote:r  L > I'm not sure universities "ever" abandoned VMS in favor of UNIX. It's justF > that UNIX licenses were either free, or almost free, to universities  L I guess it's all a matter of opinion, but taking into account the differenceI in the value of money, I don't think "free or almost free" applies.  I amyH the keeper of the licenses and according to ours we paid AT&T $1,200 forI our Univerrsity License in 1987.  Proboably doesn't seem like much today,iL I think that was a meaningful amount to a small college like this back then.   bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 20:20:49 -0500h. From: Chuck McCrobie <mccrobie@cablespeed.com> Subject: Why not VMS?i. Message-ID: <3C326071.D9F1C81B@cablespeed.com>  G Found this on comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc about Linux - why not have VMSgG in such an environment?  Oh, I forgot, Compaq is trying to kill VMS :( yF *Note the estimated savings on using OpenOffice vs. Microsoft Office -E although this article was probably written by a Linux person, it does H make evident the STAFF and SOFTWARE savings of non-Windows alternatives.  8 http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/08/10/1441239  D Article discusses the city of Largo, Florida's cost savings by usingE Linux / Wordperfect and OpenOffice vs. Microsoft Windows/Office.  The H "computers" on the city employees' desks are just X-terminals served off a medium-sized server.  G If it were VMS, when the city kits the ceiling on a one machine server,(B they could simply add a new machine into a cluster.  Oh, I forgot,8 Compaq is pushing Windows clusters - oh well...  And the< hardware/software probably would exceed that of even M$soft!   Chuck McCrobie -- i --a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:49:59 +1100e, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>W Subject: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaq )o8 Message-ID: <dse43u8v4q5odl58d5tsuii5tfp7qac0l1@4ax.com>  A On 01 Jan 02 11:07:30 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>l wrote:   >Nowadays many companiesF >would rather get rid of their veteran staff and replace them with newC >recruits fresh out of school.  The bean counters like this becausej@ >the new hires start at the bottom of the pay scale. ...  It's aI >lot easier to sell an idea if you don't have to contend with spoilsportse: >who can draw on experience to tell you why it won't work.  D Of course, with the new recruits, one does not have the problem with7 mental atherosclerosis that affects so many over forty.e  F Often "draw(ing) on experience to tell you why it won't work " becomesB an excuse for mental inertia and a refusal to look at news ways of
 doing things.   F It is no accident that Michael Dell and Bill Gates ( may his memory beD erased ! ) were both young and in their late twenties when they made@ the strategic decisions that took them where they currently are.  F ( The cynical could also argue that only those in their youth would be7 so devoid of ethics as to have made those decisons... )e   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 02:39:30 GMTo From: roggblake@inamme.com () Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaql7 Message-ID: <slrna34sn2.lsb.roggblake@unix3.netaxs.com>"  Q On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:49:59 +1100, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:qE >Of course, with the new recruits, one does not have the problem with 8 >mental atherosclerosis that affects so many over forty.  @ There is a reason for the popular phrase "young and stupid." TheF young lack the real-world experience needed to hold informed opinions,B make valid decisions, and/or exercise proper judgement. A few will@ still succeed due to being in the right place at the right time, but these are exceptions.   D I have little or no use for the under-40 set and, when in a position> to hire, avoid employing them. The stability and experience of' older employees makes them a slam-dunk.a   -- o
   Roger Blakel8   (Remove second "g" and "m" in address to send e-mail.)   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 05:46:04 GMTL* From: "Ian King" <iking@killthewabbit.org>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqr( Message-ID: <a0u6qs$qqe$0@216.39.146.95>  ' <roggblake@inamme.com> wrote in message 1 news:slrna34sn2.lsb.roggblake@unix3.netaxs.com...bL > On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:49:59 +1100, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:G > >Of course, with the new recruits, one does not have the problem witht: > >mental atherosclerosis that affects so many over forty. >rB > There is a reason for the popular phrase "young and stupid." TheH > young lack the real-world experience needed to hold informed opinions,D > make valid decisions, and/or exercise proper judgement. A few willB > still succeed due to being in the right place at the right time, > but these are exceptions.  >eF > I have little or no use for the under-40 set and, when in a position@ > to hire, avoid employing them. The stability and experience of) > older employees makes them a slam-dunk.  > J Ah, extremes.  As a member of the 'over 40' set, I don't think my thinkingJ is crusted over; much of the technology I work with was not in existence aG year ago, and one of the great joys of my job is that I must constantlye: learn new things in order to remain effective and current.  L However, dismissing the 'under 40' set is too extreme.  I consider one of myH colleagues, who is very bright and has done some truly excellent work; IE hired him right out of college, and he has yet to reach even 30.  TheQA younger folks are often much more willing (and able!) to pull thec7 all-nighters and make possible the impossible schedule.l  G I find that my gray hairs balance their crisp ones quite well; in othertF words, in managing these young folks, I contribute the experience theyI generally lack, and they power the project with that youthful enthusiasm.n  J But I've found inflexibility and stodginess in 22 year olds, and boundlessL imagination in 50 year olds.  Evaluating someone based on a simple scalar is  just not very effective.  -- Ian   ------------------------------   Date: 1 Jan 2002 22:02:03 -0800o/ From: Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com (Brannon Batson) Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqc= Message-ID: <4495ef1f.0201012202.27d0d3d5@posting.google.com>o  l israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message news:<dse43u8v4q5odl58d5tsuii5tfp7qac0l1@4ax.com>... > [snip] > H > Often "draw(ing) on experience to tell you why it won't work " becomesD > an excuse for mental inertia and a refusal to look at news ways of > doing things.v  $ I'm glad somebody finally said that.   > [snip] > H > ( The cynical could also argue that only those in their youth would be9 > so devoid of ethics as to have made those decisons... )e  F In my experience, the opposite is true.  Young people are idealistic. @ Older people have cultivated lots of reasons to compromise their ethics.    Brannon C not speaking for Intel (where everybody knows their ethics, becauseDC they are issued to you on a little laminated card on the first day)2   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 06:59:11 GMT:' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>uY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqs( Message-ID: <3C32A45F.E9A7D51@yahoo.com>   roggblake@inamme.com wrote:s > S > On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:49:59 +1100, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:m > >oB > >Of course, with the new recruits, one does not have the problem? > >with mental atherosclerosis that affects so many over forty.k > B > There is a reason for the popular phrase "young and stupid." The> > young lack the real-world experience needed to hold informedC > opinions, make valid decisions, and/or exercise proper judgement.MA > A few will still succeed due to being in the right place at the9' > right time, but these are exceptions.0 > = > I have little or no use for the under-40 set and, when in ae; > position to hire, avoid employing them. The stability andt7 > experience of older employees makes them a slam-dunk.i   Well, where are you hiring?    -- c@ Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. =    (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified)e0    mailto:uce@ftc.gov  (for spambots to harvest)   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.003 ************************