/ INFO-VAX	Wed, 02 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 4       Contents:3 About that net seminar, Alpha to Itanium (30th Nov) : Re: Bill Gates is not that smart - should have bought VMS!: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DATA Re: Compaq should learn from Oracle ( was Re: VMS for hobbyists : A Re: Compaq should learn from Oracle ( was Re: VMS for hobbyists : P Compaq should learn from Oracle ( was Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its usP Re: Compaq should learn from Oracle ( was Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to it1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  Hobbyist licenses. RE: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. RE: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses.0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds* Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?* Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?* Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?P scripting with chainsaws (was Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC)P Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re:	The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cP Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co: RE: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was  syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)$ Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)$ Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)$ Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)$ Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS) Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq/ Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs ( The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" Re: VMS as a career moveC Re: VMS as a career move ( was HP admits it will kill VMS if merger C Re: VMS as a career move ( was HP admits it will kill VMS if merger C Re: VMS as a career move ( was HP admits it will kill VMS if merger G Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger G Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds), Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use., Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use., Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use.K Re:  VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a careermove ) ? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) ? RE: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )  Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error/ Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? / Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? P Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaq  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:02:19 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> < Subject: About that net seminar, Alpha to Itanium (30th Nov)5 Message-ID: <3C3320FB.FD3836A4@swissonline.delete.ch>   G Back on 30th November there was a customers' web seminar about Alpha to A Itanium.  At the end of the seminar it was indicated that for any C questions submitted over the web that had not been answers, emailed  answers would be set.   7 I submitted a question but I've not received any reply.   4 Has anyone received any response from this seminar ?     John McLean    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:03:38 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> C Subject: Re: Bill Gates is not that smart - should have bought VMS! ; Message-ID: <01KCLFENQ4TC8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   C > instead of Bill Gates trying to steal VMS to build NT which was a J > failure, he should of just bought VMS outright and put windows on top ofJ > it like he did with dos ... could have had the best product around yearsE > ago and saved all that money he is now spending to redesign windows J > every other year, not to mention the bugs fixes ... not very smart Bill!H > But it still isn't too late!  You can still get VMS if you act quick!   H You miss the point.  Bill Gates is so rich BECAUSE he has bugs.  He can 2 fix a few then offer the fixes as the new version.  C A friend of mine, who only knows PCs as far as computing goes, was  I utterly amazed when I explained that patches (downloadable for free) and  I new versions of the OS (new features) are two different things with VMS,  I that several versions are maintained concurrently and that bug fixes are   not passed off as new versions.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 10:25:29 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>C Subject: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT ) Message-ID: <3C32E019.A27EBC81@127.0.0.1>    briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:  >   ( > One final bit of advice.  Use /VERIFY.   Good advice!  ? One thing I have not got to the bottom of is what generates the  (something like)  E BACKUP-(?)-MEDIAERROR(?) xx Recoverable media errors occurred writing  _device:  G This happened without the verify pass. It is some years since I've seen , this error, on reel tapes (proper magtapes).  D I'm curious to the conditions creating this on a write only pass. (I assume it's a read check?)   --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 11:22:06 -0500 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> C Subject: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT ( Message-ID: <3C3333AA.136A6F56@ohio.edu>  F The old 9-track tape drives had separate write and read heads, in thatE order, and the hardware did an immediate on-the-fly read-after-write, E with the tape in continuous forward motion.  It signalled an error if ; the read-back data did not match what it intended to write.   F Other utilities would "re-try" the write by reversing the tape back toD the start of the failed record (block) and then writing again on the same section of tape surface.   @ BACKUP by default presumed that that section of tape surface wasE defective, and so just kept the tape moving right along, writing that E block again on a later section of the tape.  If each block that had a G write error detected was later written without detecting a write error, F then you get the message about recoverable media errors during write.    								RDP      Nic Clews wrote: > ! > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:  > >  > * > > One final bit of advice.  Use /VERIFY. >  > Good advice! > A > One thing I have not got to the bottom of is what generates the  > (something like) > G > BACKUP-(?)-MEDIAERROR(?) xx Recoverable media errors occurred writing 
 > _device: > I > This happened without the verify pass. It is some years since I've seen . > this error, on reel tapes (proper magtapes). > F > I'm curious to the conditions creating this on a write only pass. (I > assume it's a read check?) >  > --* > Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences > nclews at csc dot com    --  B ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 10:12:51 -0800 . From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)C Subject: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT = Message-ID: <343f30ae.0201021012.63c67b8d@posting.google.com>   Y briggs@encompasserve.org wrote in message news:<s58nInp3LAv3@eisner.encompasserve.org>...   < Thanks for your detailed answers! But I have more questions:  E Is there a downside to making tapes with /MEDIA=COMPACTION except for F the obvious fact that you must have a compaction-able drive to read it
 back with?  p > In article <343f30ae.0112271609.3966cb80@posting.google.com>, SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) writes:  J > > Is there any need to use redundancy groups in BACKUP save sets writtenJ > > to 4mm DAT tapes (DDS-2) on TLZ07-VA and TZL07-DA tape drives? Doesn'tG > > the drive write its own redundant data to the tape for future error 0 > > recovery purposes? And is /CRC still needed? > D > Redundancy groups are arguably a waste of time.  If you get a tapeG > read error on a modern tape drive, chances are that you won't be able D > to read past the problem anyway.  The tape drive does use ECC, butB > that's not the same thing as writing an XOR of each 10 blocks asF > the 11th.  On the other hand, the overhead is only 10% (by default).G > If you have room on your tape and time in your backup schedule, leave  > it turned on.     + How is ECC different from redundacy groups?   B > /CRC is still needed.  And there are folks here who can give youI > the horror stories.  All the drive-generated CRC can verify is that the @ > data coming from the tape matches the data that was originally@ > written to the tape.  It can't verify that the data that makesE > it back to the operating system matches the original data that came G > from the operating system.  Cables, controllers and device drivers in  > the middle are the concern.   E How is data integrity protected when copying files from disk to disk? E I mean the main cause for tape problems, I assume, would be a problem D with the tape (since writing to and reading from tape is more likelyF to fail than the same with a disk, of course), which is why VMS BACKUPD implements /GROUP and /CRC. But you mention here that using BACKUP'sA CRC also verifies data integrity from source to tape to a restore D destination, including cables, etc. Is there something similar goingF on with disk-to-disk copying? I mean, why be more careful checking forE problems due to bad cables, controllers, and device drivers for tapes B than for disks? Or are there already other data integrity measures taken with writing to disk?   ? And when would you use COPY/WRITE_CHECK or COPY/READ_CHECK, for E example? If VMS is being used for life support, I guess I'd want them B turned on. But is there any other purpose for them? I guess if you> have a suspicious disk. But these qualifiers are turned off by/ default, implying they are not normally needed.   @ And how does block revectoring work? How does the controller, or$ whatever, know a block is going bad?  ( > One final bit of advice.  Use /VERIFY.   I do.   
 Thanks again.    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman  afeldman ^&^&^ gfigroup.com    ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 00:19:37 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>C Subject: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT 0 Message-ID: <871yh8sp2e.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  * Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes:  ! > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:   * > > One final bit of advice.  Use /VERIFY.   > Good advice!   Oh YES!!  A > One thing I have not got to the bottom of is what generates the  > (something like)   ? > BACKUP-(?)-MEDIAERROR(?) xx Recoverable media errors occurred  > writing _device:   D > This happened without the verify pass. It is some years since I've3 > seen this error, on reel tapes (proper magtapes).    F > I'm curious to the conditions creating this on a write only pass. (I > assume it's a read check?)  B With 1/2", there is a read head that reads everything written, andG either comparers it to the write data, (very rare) or parity checks it. E DAT, 8mm, DLT, and 3440 stuff does not. It is fire and forget, unless  you do a verify pass.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 06:52:46 CDT = From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.524703.killspam.00bd (Wayne Sewell) J Subject: Re: Compaq should learn from Oracle ( was Re: VMS for hobbyists :. Message-ID: <NvAZzHzCRRVc@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  g In article <bgs53usicm2d2u6i5is1hjkqpgokv5ddaq@4ax.com>, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> writes: : > On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:13:00 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbig- > <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:  >    [stuff deleted]    >>+ >>Does this exist for Oracle Rdb as well?    >  > Yes.4 > Oracle 9i Enterprise Edition is downloadable free., > From the Oracle9i Database Downloads page:! > The versions available include:  >  > " Version 9.0.1.1 : > Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for Windows NT/2000E > Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for Sun SPARC Solaris (64-bit)  >  > Version 9.0.1 E > Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for Sun SPARC Solaris (32-bit) 7 > Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for Compaq Tru64 . > Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for AIX0 > Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for HP-UX0 > Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for LinuxD > Oracle9i Enterprise Edition for Linux/390, Release 1 - Developer's	 > Releaseo >  > IA64 Developer's Releases E > Oracle9i Enterprise Edition for Linux/IA64, Release 1 - Developer'so	 > ReleaseoB > Oracle9i Enterprise Edition for HP/IA64, Release 1 - Developer's	 > ReleaseRG > Oracle9i Enterprise Edition for Windows/IA64, Release 1 - Developer's4 > Release" o    E He asked about oracle *RDB*, which is a completely separate database.o     --  O =============================================================================== M Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx : http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)oO ===============================================================================iN Sparky (from Bring It On): "In cheerleading, we throw people in the air.  Fat  	people don't go as high."   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:01:03 +1100 , From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>J Subject: Re: Compaq should learn from Oracle ( was Re: VMS for hobbyists :8 Message-ID: <7j463ukm41kj8eo03n1e7gt6t9hhehlu17@4ax.com>  D On 2 Jan 2002 06:52:46 CDT, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.524703.killspam.00bd (Wayne Sewell) wrote:n  F >He asked about oracle *RDB*, which is a completely separate database.   Sorry.E Yes, I believe that the rdb is also available somewhere on the oracleV site as a free download.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 22:45:12 +1100S, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Compaq should learn from Oracle ( was Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its usw8 Message-ID: <bgs53usicm2d2u6i5is1hjkqpgokv5ddaq@4ax.com>  8 On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:13:00 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbig+ <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:e  O >> >"If the marketeers and strategists at CPQ had a clue, what they would do issM >> >offer a free restricted VMS license to developers. Develop for free, thenaM >> >pay for the license when you're ready to go commercial with an app you'vee* >> >developed with the restricted license. >> rG >> I have downloaded a developers version of Oracle under exactly those 	 >> terms.r >s* >Does this exist for Oracle Rdb as well?     Yes.2 Oracle 9i Enterprise Edition is downloadable free.* From the Oracle9i Database Downloads page: The versions available include:e   " Version 9.0.1.1 8 Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for Windows NT/2000C Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for Sun SPARC Solaris (64-bit)V  
 Version 9.0.1MC Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for Sun SPARC Solaris (32-bit)r5 Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for Compaq Tru64 , Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for AIX. Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for HP-UX. Oracle9i Database Enterprise Edition for LinuxB Oracle9i Enterprise Edition for Linux/390, Release 1 - Developer's Releaseo   IA64 Developer's ReleasesqC Oracle9i Enterprise Edition for Linux/IA64, Release 1 - Developer'so Release @ Oracle9i Enterprise Edition for HP/IA64, Release 1 - Developer's Release'E Oracle9i Enterprise Edition for Windows/IA64, Release 1 - Developer'sr	 Release"     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 13:47:00 +0100n9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>oY Subject: Re: Compaq should learn from Oracle ( was Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to ito' Message-ID: <3C330144.540F70F0@aaa.com>o   That's *NOT* Rdb !!"   Jan-Erik Sderholm.e   israel r t wrote:" > : > On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:13:00 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbig- > <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:  > I > >> I have downloaded a developers version of Oracle under exactly thoseh > >> terms.o > > * > >Does this exist for Oracle Rdb as well? >  > Yes.4 > Oracle 9i Enterprise Edition is downloadable free.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 08:28:37 -0600r+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <VN6UWLn9+vyu@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  j In article <3C3272A8.43DCCDFC@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes: > Paul Repacholi wrote:   D >> > I can't count the number of times I've run into that limit withF >> > modern systems. HP/UX, AIX, Solaris, you name it - all within the& >> > last year, with current versions. >> rJ >> I just hit it this evening. Looking for a post... Grepping the news dirD >> is a total loss. Oh well, time to move a copy of them all to VMS! > G > It would be quicker to "find . -type f -exec grep -li <string> {} \;"e >   ? 	I think you missed where he mentioned he wanted to search the m 	prior week's postings, i.e.:b  < 	$ search/sinc=today-7-0:0:  [...]*.*;*   "string_goes_here"  : 	Common use of built in /before /since qualifiers for most
 	commands:  & 		$ delete/before=today-7-0:0: *.log;*  B 	However, always corner cases and strengths on ksh, *sh... Porting. 	scripts Unix->DCL in 1993 I came across this:  H SND_CNT=`ls ${SIFFILE}/${FLPREFX}[0-1][0-9][0-3][0-9]${FLSUFFX} | wc -l`  = egrep "BUSY|NO CARRIER|NO DIAL|CALL FAILED" ${SLOG} | sort -uV  ? 	Where I wished VMS had a pipe command to begin to help portinga$ 	some of the nastier shell features.  ? 	One might argue the more common usage of searching or deletingn@ 	by date/time is a great advantage DCL versus the shells for day> 	to day... but the shells with all the bits and pieces provide 	greater flexibility.m   				Robh   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 10:15:50 -0600m- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <NlcJADnxFchU@eisner.encompasserve.org>n    Michael Zarlenga wrote: > @ > This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix muchA > easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to saye? > that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.   E    So how do I do the following in you favorite shell (yes, I do know-    two painfull answers)?-      rename *.a *.ba   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 10:18:42 -0600.- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <jNzTnNPapBjV@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  j In article <3C2E9074.4EBD2C31@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes: > H > That's what the "#!/bin/sh" is for in the beginning of a shell script.. > I can make sure that I have the right shell.  F    Except that most of us would expect /bin/sh to be Bourne shell, and    sometimes it's not.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:03:08 GMT 2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C332E1F.378A3804@bartek.dontspamme.net>I   Rob Young wrote: > l > In article <3C3272A8.43DCCDFC@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes: > > Paul Repacholi wrote:w > F > >> > I can't count the number of times I've run into that limit withH > >> > modern systems. HP/UX, AIX, Solaris, you name it - all within the( > >> > last year, with current versions. > >>L > >> I just hit it this evening. Looking for a post... Grepping the news dirF > >> is a total loss. Oh well, time to move a copy of them all to VMS! > >sI > > It would be quicker to "find . -type f -exec grep -li <string> {} \;"  > >e > G >         I think you missed where he mentioned he wanted to search the & >         prior week's postings, i.e.: > E >         $ search/sinc=today-7-0:0:  [...]*.*;*   "string_goes_here"  >    Another hard one:w  6 find . -type f -mtime -7 -exec grep -li <string> {} \;  F Notice the mtime argument. -7 is last 7 days, +7 is older than 7 days.   aak-   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:48:06 GMT 2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C33386C.4E7571EB@bartek.dontspamme.net>w   Bob Koehler wrote: > l > In article <3C2E9074.4EBD2C31@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes: > >sJ > > That's what the "#!/bin/sh" is for in the beginning of a shell script.0 > > I can make sure that I have the right shell. > H >    Except that most of us would expect /bin/sh to be Bourne shell, and >    sometimes it's not.  H True, especially w/Linux - but I stay away from systems where /bin/sh is not the Bourne shell :)e   aakN   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 17:18:11 GMT-1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)2: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a0vfcj$unp$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>G  / In article <u34m4jq1cgrm98@corp.supernews.com>,F2  Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes: |> w2 |> "." is specific to ksh; for csh, it's "source." |>    I Actually, it's "source" that is specific.  It is specific to csh and it'sr0 clones.  Every other shell I have used uses ".".   bill   -- mJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 17:23:59 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a0vfnf$unp$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>t  5 In article <3C33386C.4E7571EB@bartek.dontspamme.net>,t5  Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes:  |> Bob Koehler wrote:  |> > ro |> > In article <3C2E9074.4EBD2C31@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes:n |> > >M |> > > That's what the "#!/bin/sh" is for in the beginning of a shell script. 3 |> > > I can make sure that I have the right shell.s |> > eK |> >    Except that most of us would expect /bin/sh to be Bourne shell, andm |> >    sometimes it's not.h  H No, most would assume that if the script contains "#!/bin/sh" it will beG compatable with the original Bourne Shell.  This would, of course, mean H it would work on ksh, pdksh, ash, zsh, bash, etc. as all of the known shH clones are supersets and support all of the features of the original sh.G If you use features not supported by the original sh you should but therK actual name of the command you wrote the script for. (as is done for thingsoH like perl and tcl which work the same way, but have no similaritt to the other shells.)   |> aK |> True, especially w/Linux - but I stay away from systems where /bin/sh is) |> not the Bourne shell :)  K Then what does Linux have to do with it??  sh is not the Bourne Shell undercN Linux, it is BASH.  The original Bourne Shell was never released to the publicL and thus only show up in officially licensed versions of Unix that have paid* for it.  All others use one of the clones.   It does make a difference.   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 17:44:35 GMT-  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <9nh63u45vmul95q510s5fbjm7feqdg269p@4ax.com>  F On 29 Dec 2001 18:54:46 GMT, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:  ( >In article <3C2E03B6.C0D6F6A0@fsi.net>,1 >David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: / >>"find" is an external program, not the shell.e >e >So? >,G >The whole programming model the shell uses is gluing together external H >programs. It's a dataflow engine, not a traditional procedural language
 >like DCL. >m< >You might as well complain that Lisp doesn't have a "goto".    ' Hey, let's start the old 'setq' debate.u1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaqe- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)s   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 17:53:04 GMTn2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <3C334808.D66F2D0@bartek.dontspamme.net>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: >  > |>M > |> True, especially w/Linux - but I stay away from systems where /bin/sh ise > |> not the Bourne shell :) > M > Then what does Linux have to do with it??  sh is not the Bourne Shell underoP > Linux, it is BASH.  The original Bourne Shell was never released to the publicN > and thus only show up in officially licensed versions of Unix that have paid, > for it.  All others use one of the clones.  2 It was a joke - I know /bin/sh on Linux is bash...   aakv   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 12:14:02 -0600,+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)m: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <mBBq3rZi535s@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  j In article <3C332E1F.378A3804@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes: > Rob Young wrote: >> km >> In article <3C3272A8.43DCCDFC@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes:s >> > Paul Repacholi wrote: >> uG >> >> > I can't count the number of times I've run into that limit withsI >> >> > modern systems. HP/UX, AIX, Solaris, you name it - all within theh) >> >> > last year, with current versions.s >> >>rM >> >> I just hit it this evening. Looking for a post... Grepping the news diraG >> >> is a total loss. Oh well, time to move a copy of them all to VMS!  >> >J >> > It would be quicker to "find . -type f -exec grep -li <string> {} \;" >> > >> -H >>         I think you missed where he mentioned he wanted to search the' >>         prior week's postings, i.e.:, >> rF >>         $ search/sinc=today-7-0:0:  [...]*.*;*   "string_goes_here" >> y >  > Another hard one:s > 8 > find . -type f -mtime -7 -exec grep -li <string> {} \; > H > Notice the mtime argument. -7 is last 7 days, +7 is older than 7 days. >   @ 	Ahh... I forgot about that.  Arguably equivalent.  Of course if= 	you are searching all files created since 4 this morning ande 	before 6 a.m.:s  - 		$ search/since=4/before=6 [...]*.* <string>e  B 	You are out of luck...  I'm sure you can write a little script to( 	do it or maybe their is a Perl command?   				Robi   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 18:01:27 GMTu( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a0vhtn$1q75$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  1 In article <3C323135.6834BE8F@trailing-edge.com>, - Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote: B >That said, the trend is very much away from this "pure" model andA >into shells where more and more functionality is rolled into the  >shell itself.  J That's a convenience. It's not central to the shell programming model, andM portable scripts don't use much of that kind of functionality. Not to mentiony- that it's not necessarily a win. For example:    	sed pattern file2  F is likely to be faster than any loop in the shell, for any non-trivialB file, no matter whether your shell is sh, ksh, bash, or even perl.   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)J   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 18:07:38 +0100e9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>  Subject: Hobbyist licenses. ' Message-ID: <3C333E5A.5959FD8B@aaa.com>i   Hi. 2 I just ordered and got new licenses from Montagar.: But, they says "/TERMINATION=29-MAY-2002" on all licenses." This is the layered prod licenses.  ; I also ordered VMS Alpha at the same time, and that licensee, says "/TERMINATION=02-JAN-2003" as expected.   Anyone else seeing this ?c  > (I'v also mailed Montagar directly, but I thought I'd ask here also...)   Regardsn Jan-Erik Sderholm.C   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 12:19:14 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: Hobbyist licenses.f- Message-ID: <0033000046532497000002L072*@MHS>u  % =0AI remember sending an email askingo! about that and getting a reply to  not worry about it, that things  would work just fine even with" the termination date being what it was.   And they did work just fine.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETo* Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 12:14 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: Hobbyist licenses.=     Hi.=2 I just ordered and got new licenses from Montagar.< But, they says "/TERMINATION=3D29-MAY-2002" on all licenses." This is the layered prod licenses.  ; I also ordered VMS Alpha at the same time, and that licenseo. says "/TERMINATION=3D02-JAN-2003" as expected.   Anyone else seeing this ?=  > (I'v also mailed Montagar directly, but I thought I'd ask here also...)   Regardsn Jan-Erik S=F6derholm.=   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 18:58:13 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>< Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.c' Message-ID: <3C334A35.34712A2F@aaa.com>w  , Hm, do you mean even *after* the term date ?   B.t.w, this is an example :.   $ LICENSE REGISTER C	- 	/ACTIVITY=CONSTANT=100	-x, 	/AUTHORIZATION=DECUS-SWE-070148928-281915	- 	/DATE=29-MAY-2002	- 	/ISSUER=DECUS	- 	/PRODUCER=DEC	- 	/TERMINATION=29-MAY-2002	-e 	/UNITS=0	-t  	/CHECKSUM=1-this-isnt-what-Igot     WILLIAM WEBB wrote:e > $ > I remember sending an email asking# > about that and getting a reply to2! > not worry about it, that things<  > would work just fine even with$ > the termination date being what it > was. >  > And they did work just fine. >  > WWWebb   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 11:05:57 -0700:+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>e Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses. ' Message-ID: <3C334C05.6050700@mmaz.com>    WILLIAM WEBB wrote:e  # >I remember sending an email askingc" >about that and getting a reply to  >not worry about it, that things >would work just fine even with # >the termination date being what ite >was.  >h >And they did work just fine.  >I  I This would surprise me greatly since my hobbyist systems did expire on=20sG the termination dates this past summer and I had to obtain fresh LMF=20e- PAK's to get the systems functioning again...O   Barrya     >D >WWWebbp >: >-----Original Message-----u0 >From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET+ >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 12:14 PMDC >To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET  >Subject: Hobbyist licenses. >i >E >Hi.3 >I just ordered and got new licenses from Montagar.n= >But, they says "/TERMINATION=3D29-MAY-2002" on all licenses.e# >This is the layered prod licenses.n >p< >I also ordered VMS Alpha at the same time, and that license/ >says "/TERMINATION=3D02-JAN-2003" as expected.9 >R >Anyone else seeing this ? >o? >(I'v also mailed Montagar directly, but I thought I'd ask herei	 >also...)e >s >Regards >Jan-Erik S=F6derholm. >i >t   --=20d  B Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO=20  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 13:14:40 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: Hobbyist licenses.a- Message-ID: <0033000046540352000002L022*@MHS>b  3 =0AI just sent David C. at Montagar an email asking0 about this-   $ So don't y'all duplicate my request.   TIA    WWWebb   -----Original Message-----! From: Treahy@mmaz.com at INTERNET ) Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 1:09 PMo To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NCo% Cc: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETe Subject: RE: Hobbyist licenses.      WILLIAM WEBB wrote:r  # >I remember sending an email askingc" >about that and getting a reply to  >not worry about it, that things >would work just fine even with:# >the termination date being what ite >was.  >b >And they did work just fine.a >v  F This would surprise me greatly since my hobbyist systems did expire onD the termination dates this past summer and I had to obtain fresh LMF- PAK's to get the systems functioning again...i   Barrya     >c >WWWebbe >  >-----Original Message-----e0 >From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET+ >Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 12:14 PM C >To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETj >Subject: Hobbyist licenses. >f >a >Hi.3 >I just ordered and got new licenses from Montagar.,= >But, they says "/TERMINATION=3D29-MAY-2002" on all licenses.c# >This is the layered prod licenses.  >r< >I also ordered VMS Alpha at the same time, and that license/ >says "/TERMINATION=3D02-JAN-2003" as expected.. >b >Anyone else seeing this ? > ? >(I'v also mailed Montagar directly, but I thought I'd ask herer	 >also...)a >i >Regards >Jan-Erik S=F6derholm. >e >f   --  ? Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIOn  B E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028=   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 12:36:09 -0600c From: rivie@cougar.no.domain Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.o3 Message-ID: <slrna36lc7.5q7.rivie@cougar.no.domain>e  A In article <3C333E5A.5959FD8B@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:g > Hi.e4 > I just ordered and got new licenses from Montagar.< > But, they says "/TERMINATION=29-MAY-2002" on all licenses.$ > This is the layered prod licenses. > = > I also ordered VMS Alpha at the same time, and that license-. > says "/TERMINATION=02-JAN-2003" as expected. >  > Anyone else seeing this ?o  C Yeah, I've seen this before. Basically, Montagar will either createwB new licenses or send you a copy of your old licenses. For your VMS? Alpha license, it created a new license which lasts a year. YOuoA apparently already have layered product licenses (got a VAX lying C around?), so it just sent you copies of the licenses you've alreadye! created for the layered products.   
 Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edun    > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----A http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 10:02:24 -0600s- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)u9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsr3 Message-ID: <r4K$mywehFhK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   p In article <00A06E42.AA5412CF@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: > N > The sad fact is that the lack of anything positive about VMS often gets par-N > leyed into debates that there must be something very negative happening with > VMS.  H    I just got a very nice glossy (with a cover letter from Mark Gorham)     which included:  G       "AlphaServers running OpenVMS came in first with the fewest hourst-       of downtime"  (TechWise Research, Inc.)2  G       "measure continuous availability of OpenVMS systems not in hours,.(       days or even months, but in years"  #       "Clusters: the gold standard"t  G       "90 percent of the world's CPU chips are manufactured on assemblyr0       lines run by the OpenVMS operating system"  F       "with our OpenVMS system, I don't have to worry about security."4       (David E. McKelleb, Utah Valley State College)  G    So someone in Compaq IS saying good things about VMS.  But it leaves C    me wondering if anyone outside the choir is hearing it.  I think F    those of us in c.o.v have aleady heard all the above, I wish Compaq1    would say the same things out loud, in public.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 17:18:29 +0100t1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>e9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedss5 Message-ID: <3C3332D5.E8AF1701@swissonline.delete.ch>-   Bob Koehler wrote: > r > In article <00A06E42.AA5412CF@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: > >oP > > The sad fact is that the lack of anything positive about VMS often gets par-P > > leyed into debates that there must be something very negative happening with > > VMS. > I >    I just got a very nice glossy (with a cover letter from Mark Gorham)h >    which included: > I >       "AlphaServers running OpenVMS came in first with the fewest hours / >       of downtime"  (TechWise Research, Inc.)  > I >       "measure continuous availability of OpenVMS systems not in hours,t* >       days or even months, but in years" > % >       "Clusters: the gold standard"- > I >       "90 percent of the world's CPU chips are manufactured on assemblys2 >       lines run by the OpenVMS operating system" > H >       "with our OpenVMS system, I don't have to worry about security."6 >       (David E. McKelleb, Utah Valley State College) > I >    So someone in Compaq IS saying good things about VMS.  But it leavestE >    me wondering if anyone outside the choir is hearing it.  I think H >    those of us in c.o.v have aleady heard all the above, I wish Compaq3 >    would say the same things out loud, in public.     E I wish they would too, but the sad fact is that they have preached toeB the choir for so long that new purchases by existing customers areE probably a very large proportion of their business.  From what I read.; Compaq is having trouble even holding onto these customers.1  D Mind you I am still not convinced that they really want to hold ontoE them.  Their marketing of VMS certainly doesn't give that impression.n       John McLeans   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:30:11 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds1> Message-ID: <nAGY7.50033$Sj1.20393282@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  : "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:r4K$mywehFhK@eisner.encompasserve.org...>J > In article <00A06E42.AA5412CF@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG' (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:r > >eK > > The sad fact is that the lack of anything positive about VMS often getsc par-K > > leyed into debates that there must be something very negative happeningh with > > VMS. >,I >    I just got a very nice glossy (with a cover letter from Mark Gorham)w >    which included: >sI >       "AlphaServers running OpenVMS came in first with the fewest hourso/ >       of downtime"  (TechWise Research, Inc.)r >cI >       "measure continuous availability of OpenVMS systems not in hours, * >       days or even months, but in years" >h% >       "Clusters: the gold standard") > I >       "90 percent of the world's CPU chips are manufactured on assembly/2 >       lines run by the OpenVMS operating system" >nH >       "with our OpenVMS system, I don't have to worry about security."6 >       (David E. McKelleb, Utah Valley State College) >uI >    So someone in Compaq IS saying good things about VMS.  But it leavesvE >    me wondering if anyone outside the choir is hearing it.  I thinkfH >    those of us in c.o.v have aleady heard all the above, I wish Compaq3 >    would say the same things out loud, in public.|  J Amen! While customers buy solutions, not OSes, unless a customer knows theG goodness of the OS that underpins the solution, the OS has marginal (at-" best) utility as a differentiator.  E We don't need a VMS Blimp, but IMHO a more proactive, aggressive, andh; creative marketing strategy would immensely benefit the OS.h   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 10:27:39 -0800M( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsa< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201021027.278e0c3@posting.google.com>  h koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in message news:<r4K$mywehFhK@eisner.encompasserve.org>...r > In article <00A06E42.AA5412CF@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: > > P > > The sad fact is that the lack of anything positive about VMS often gets par-P > > leyed into debates that there must be something very negative happening with > > VMS. > J >    I just got a very nice glossy (with a cover letter from Mark Gorham)  >    which included: > I >       "AlphaServers running OpenVMS came in first with the fewest hours / >       of downtime"  (TechWise Research, Inc.)k > I >       "measure continuous availability of OpenVMS systems not in hours,i* >       days or even months, but in years" > % >       "Clusters: the gold standard"  > I >       "90 percent of the world's CPU chips are manufactured on assembly 2 >       lines run by the OpenVMS operating system" > H >       "with our OpenVMS system, I don't have to worry about security."6 >       (David E. McKelleb, Utah Valley State College) > I >    So someone in Compaq IS saying good things about VMS.  But it leavesaE >    me wondering if anyone outside the choir is hearing it.  I think,H >    those of us in c.o.v have aleady heard all the above, I wish Compaq3 >    would say the same things out loud, in public.Z  L what's this guys email address ... I would like to tell him a few things ...   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 10:30:54 -0800 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsr= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201021030.654e831b@posting.google.com>   z "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message news:<PDbY7.46443$Sj1.19314807@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>...@ > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message1 > news:3C2D8C7A.DE94780C@swissonline.delete.ch...  > >  > > Just a few brief points ...> > >s > > the augur wrote: > > >t >  ....cK > > > The main point is that VMS makes money, it makes a good enough amounte0 > > > of money for any small-mid-large cap firm. > >tG > > Why doesn't Compaq do more to promote the use of VMS ?  What's youri > > thoughts ? > >. > H > As I said more than half a decade ago, "IT'S THE MARKETING, STUPID!!!" > M > (No insinuation of cerebral short-circuits intended for any of the denizens  > of these newsgroups)  K why don't you ask compaq when they are going to hire a vms marketing group?h   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 10:36:36 -0800e( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds== Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201021036.3d141e33@posting.google.com>a  Z David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message news:<3C2FCE69.60801@tsoft-inc.com>... > cjt wrote: >  > G >  > Many (most?) Windows desktops are shut down at the end of the day,)@ >  > so  they're never more than a day away from a reboot.  SomeE >  > (many?)Windows  servers are configured to reboot each night at a6 >  > set time. >  >D >  > Rebooting has become an accepted way of life for many, who know >  > nothing  better.a > I > Run your favorite nuclear power station on windoz.  Don't worry if the  I > reactor tries to go critical at the same time as the windoz system set tD > up to handle such a condition is doing it's 'nightly' reboot.  :-) > H > The periodic reboot is part of what I feel is the greatest disservice K > billy boy has done computer users.  Lowering expectations is disgusting. i6 >   I truly hate 'lowest common denominator' thinking. > K > Then again, it seems the way much of civilization is going.  Look at the   > dumbing down in education. >  > Dave  J that started 20 years ago by globalists in our government who want a worldH government ... remember stalins words, dumb the people, give them drugs,@ subvert God and family, give them sex, and you can take over ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 03:04:22 -0500D- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>w3 Subject: Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?N, Message-ID: <3C32BEFA.BA43A748@videotron.ca>   Robert DiRosario wrote:l9 > I thought there wasn't any license keys before the LMF.a     AQ-FP59C-BN0 VMS LIC KEY BIN TK50   Copyright 1986 Digital Equipment Corporationl  S There was also a paper Proof of Purchase for VMS Software User Licence (1-16 users)o  L Note that that was the OS only, not for any layered products. LMF introduced layered product licences.e  Q An upgrade to unlimited users was QZ004-T5 (TK50) or -T3 for RX50 diskette media.L    ! Interestingly, there is the text:eE A user is defined as one who is logged in to the CPU via a physicallyhN connected terminal, a LAT terminal controller, or DECnet as a virtual terminal (SET HOST).h   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 04:50:00 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t3 Subject: Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?l3 Message-ID: <EGRp$DE6ltvP@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <3C325179.D9E55C9F@starpower.net>, Robert DiRosario <rdirosario@starpower.net> writes:   9 > I thought there wasn't any license keys before the LMF.h  E There were license keys to establish how many simultaneous users weredE allowed on your MicroVAX II.  There were about 4 sizes supported. Thee1 implementation as I recall was done with a patch.i   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 00:27:48 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>3 Subject: Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?r0 Message-ID: <87sn9ora4b.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:3   > William wrote:  B > > I have the possibilty of acquiring a MVII and would like to be- > > historically correct in the way I run it.Y  N > You don't want that !T  =E > I started in 1987 with MicroVMS 4.6, upgraded to 4,.7 and then onto/ > the real VMS at 5.0N  O* > Believe me, you don't want MicroVMS :-(.  iD > Also, you'd have a hard time getting the keys to activate it sinceF > they predate the current LMF mechanisms that are used by the hobyistA > licences. I think I still have one such key on TK50. Not sure Io+ > still have the original 4.6 media though.d  > I agree that uVMS is one to avoid, but the 'key' you need is a, normal, non-munted copy of login. And NCP ;)   How soon they forget...e   -- z< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 00:05:37 -0600oC From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com>mY Subject: scripting with chainsaws (was Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC)r= Message-ID: <3C32A331.4060801@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com>I   Tim Shoppa wrote:a   > Perl, theN= > "swiss army chainsaw" that I love so dearly, is an enormousl? > layering of good features over fundamentally flawed features.     F Pretty much everyone heavily involved with Perl (including the guy who> invented it) agrees with that. That's why Perl 6, currently inH development, is a complete rewrite, including a new virtual machine. TheF requirements document for Perl 6 might well have been entitled "How toK get all the neat stuff from Perl 5 but without such a mess under the hood":t  A <http://infotrope.net/opensource/software/perl6/requirements.txt>     A > That's not a bad thing - any good piece of software evolves fortF > the better and at this point Perl is king of the hill - but it's notF > pretty, and I'd love to see something come up clean and displace it.B > So far, Perl seems to have simply swallowed all the contenders,     E No doubt there are Python, Tcl, and Ruby fans who would dispute that.0? But Perl certainly does have a lot of heft, particularly in theaA literally thousands of extensions available for free on CPAN (see G <http://search.cpan.org>). As far as something cleaner, I'm not sure ifTF you are talking about code written in Perl or the code that implements; Perl; both get significantly cleaner with each new version.:   > andyB > now I see folks writing real object-oriented applications in it!      > Yup.  There is a nice tutorial on objected-oriented Perl here:  2 <http://www.perl.com/lpt/a/2001/11/07/ooperl.html>   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 08:03:09 -0500 0 From: "Micheal H. McCabe" <p98mccabe@alltel.net>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re:	The demise of coh0 Message-ID: <B8586F3D.5283%p98mccabe@alltel.net>  L in article TRyY7.6$Gy.706@news.get2net.dk, Nico de Jong at nico@farumdata.dk wrote on 01/02/2002 02:40:   > / > Ian King <iking@killthewabbit.org> skrev i enT0 > nyhedsmeddelelse:a0u6qs$qqe$0@216.39.146.95... > M >> But I've found inflexibility and stodginess in 22 year olds, and boundlessoL >> imagination in 50 year olds.  Evaluating someone based on a simple scalar > is# >> just not very effective.  -- Ian  >> s7 > I tend to agree with you, with one exception (so far) K > I've never seen a Mac-fan which didnt think that the Mac was the greatestlI > invention since the 7th day, and who didnt want to learn about anythingdJ > else. But then, which Mac-fan would be lurking in this old-timer group ? > Nico >    TROLL!  * (Gotta feed the troll, it's a new year...)  J Well, I like my Mac.  Unlike the Wintel 98 box across the room, I've never had to reinstall the OS.  L As far as the desire to learn other systems, I started on a Univac 90/60 andI quickly "upgraded" to a Wang 2200.  My feet are presently propped up on a  pdp-11/03 running RT-11.  I I don't let the Mac become a religion, but I frequently tell the folks atwJ work to "buy a Mac."  When the PC's committ some unpardonable sin (Hee Hee* Hee!), I just smile and say "told you so!"  I I'm 34 years old and consider myself a cynical bastard.  Hanging out withaG all the "old timers" is great -- you learn many new (old) and wonderful  things.h  ? Posted from alt.folklore.computers. Condolances to the folks ineE comp.sys.intel.  Apologies to the folks in comp.os.vms and comp.arch.      -- i Micheal H. McCabee p98mccabe@alltel.net  $ This space intentionally left blank.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 18:05:51 GMTo) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of c,' Message-ID: <3C33672F.4A965C8F@ev1.net>w   Nico de Jong wrote:  > / > Ian King <iking@killthewabbit.org> skrev i en00 > nyhedsmeddelelse:a0u6qs$qqe$0@216.39.146.95... > N > > But I've found inflexibility and stodginess in 22 year olds, and boundlessM > > imagination in 50 year olds.  Evaluating someone based on a simple scalaru > is$ > > just not very effective.  -- Ian > >s7 > I tend to agree with you, with one exception (so far)OK > I've never seen a Mac-fan which didnt think that the Mac was the greatesthI > invention since the 7th day, and who didnt want to learn about anything J > else. But then, which Mac-fan would be lurking in this old-timer group ? > B Well, Nico, I consider myself a "Mac-fan". I use a Mac G4 to surf D the 'net and post on Usenet. It is an alternative to the PC, which I> consider to be too "Gates-centric". And I am an old-timer that regularly reads this group.   D I also have a Linux box, but it is *not* attached to the 'net. And IC am *very* interested in learning all sorts of new computer stuff. I C am also interested in learning all sorts of *old* computer stuff...u3 like about Bendix machines, LGP-30's, and others...a  1 So *not* all Mac-fans are fanatically Mac-only...'   -- t? +-------------------------------------------------------------+t? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |u? +-------------------------------------------------------------+i   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 18:09:02 GMT ) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>sY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of c2' Message-ID: <3C3367EE.EA5898BB@ev1.net>a   JF Mezei wrote:t >  > Nico de Jong wrote:i9 > > I tend to agree with you, with one exception (so far)DM > > I've never seen a Mac-fan which didnt think that the Mac was the greatest0K > > invention since the 7th day, and who didnt want to learn about anythingrL > > else. But then, which Mac-fan would be lurking in this old-timer group ? > M > There are a few MAC fans here. MAC fans have an affinity with VMS: quality.eP > And a company that was able to choose a non-IBM solution for its mainframe wasM > also likely to be able to choose a non Microsoft solution for its desktops.v > Q Err, this Mac-fan has very little affinity with VMS...give me TOPS-10 or TOPS-20.sG I am interested in the DEC-10, PDP-11, and PDP-8...much less interestedM in the@ VAX. (Of course, remember that the VAX can also run BSD UNIX...) > L > But Bobby Palmer failed to seize on that opportunity and decided he shouldL > join the lineup to lick Bill Gate's orifice hoping he can do a better job  > than others. > F IMHO (and others HO), Bobby Palmer was a hired *assassin*...brought in by theS board of directors of DEC to dismantle the company. See threads in <alt.sys.pdp10>.    -- i? +-------------------------------------------------------------+d? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |a? +-------------------------------------------------------------+s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:40:29 +0100( From: "Nico de Jong" <nico@farumdata.dk>Y Subject: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqi, Message-ID: <TRyY7.6$Gy.706@news.get2net.dk>  - Ian King <iking@killthewabbit.org> skrev i eno. nyhedsmeddelelse:a0u6qs$qqe$0@216.39.146.95...  L > But I've found inflexibility and stodginess in 22 year olds, and boundlessK > imagination in 50 year olds.  Evaluating someone based on a simple scalar  is" > just not very effective.  -- Ian >m5 I tend to agree with you, with one exception (so far)cI I've never seen a Mac-fan which didnt think that the Mac was the greatest0G invention since the 7th day, and who didnt want to learn about anythingaH else. But then, which Mac-fan would be lurking in this old-timer group ? Nico   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 04:44:13 -0600O- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co 3 Message-ID: <Jdf8jbE9GOYd@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  W In article <TRyY7.6$Gy.706@news.get2net.dk>, "Nico de Jong" <nico@farumdata.dk> writes:t > / > Ian King <iking@killthewabbit.org> skrev i en 0 > nyhedsmeddelelse:a0u6qs$qqe$0@216.39.146.95... > M >> But I've found inflexibility and stodginess in 22 year olds, and boundless L >> imagination in 50 year olds.  Evaluating someone based on a simple scalar > is# >> just not very effective.  -- Ian  >>7 > I tend to agree with you, with one exception (so far)tK > I've never seen a Mac-fan which didnt think that the Mac was the greatestOI > invention since the 7th day, and who didnt want to learn about anythingeJ > else. But then, which Mac-fan would be lurking in this old-timer group ?    . It is not clear what you mean by "this" group:  = > comp.os.vms,comp.arch,comp.sys.intel,alt.folklore.computersu  6 but I have been a Macintosh fan for the past 14 years.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 18:41:36 GMTt1 From: rsteiner@isis.visi.com (Richard C. Steiner) Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coe3 Message-ID: <slrna36l30.7nl.rsteiner@isis.visi.com>t  @ In article <TRyY7.6$Gy.706@news.get2net.dk>, Nico de Jong wrote:  J >I've never seen a Mac-fan which didnt think that the Mac was the greatestH >invention since the 7th day, and who didnt want to learn about anythingI >else. But then, which Mac-fan would be lurking in this old-timer group ?i  H I've been a Mac fan since I first starting using one here in 1993, and IG love certain aspects of the MacOS interface, but I'm also a UNIVAC fan,  a Linux fan, and an OS/2 fan.i  3 Not all people fit in convenient compartments.  :-)1   -- dM  -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MN 7                      Written online using slrn 0.9.5.4!i9                    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 03:10:33 -0500s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>rY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coi, Message-ID: <3C32C06C.A29CEF8B@videotron.ca>   Nico de Jong wrote: 7 > I tend to agree with you, with one exception (so far)pK > I've never seen a Mac-fan which didnt think that the Mac was the greatest I > invention since the 7th day, and who didnt want to learn about anythingdJ > else. But then, which Mac-fan would be lurking in this old-timer group ?  L There are a few MAC fans here. MAC fans have an affinity with VMS: quality. N And a company that was able to choose a non-IBM solution for its mainframe wasK also likely to be able to choose a non Microsoft solution for its desktops.   J But Bobby Palmer failed to seize on that opportunity and decided he shouldV join the lineup to lick Bill Gate's orifice hoping he can do a better job than others.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 13:21:54 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>C Subject: RE: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( waso- Message-ID: <0033000046541196000002L062*@MHS>H  ; =0AI think that the correct answer to this question depends17 on whether you want to move systems or manage them. :^)    WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETo) Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 1:07 PMlB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETC Subject: RE: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was      Nico de Jong wrote:: > / > Ian King <iking@killthewabbit.org> skrev i enm0 > nyhedsmeddelelse:a0u6qs$qqe$0@216.39.146.95... >mH > > But I've found inflexibility and stodginess in 22 year olds, and bo= undlessmH > > imagination in 50 year olds.  Evaluating someone based on a simple = scalar > is$ > > just not very effective.  -- Ian > >!7 > I tend to agree with you, with one exception (so far)nH > I've never seen a Mac-fan which didnt think that the Mac was the grea= testH > invention since the 7th day, and who didnt want to learn about anythi= ngH > else. But then, which Mac-fan would be lurking in this old-timer grou= p ?c >kA Well, Nico, I consider myself a "Mac-fan". I use a Mac G4 to surfsD the 'net and post on Usenet. It is an alternative to the PC, which I> consider to be too "Gates-centric". And I am an old-timer that regularly reads this group.t  D I also have a Linux box, but it is *not* attached to the 'net. And IC am *very* interested in learning all sorts of new computer stuff. IoC am also interested in learning all sorts of *old* computer stuff...n3 like about Bendix machines, LGP-30's, and others...b  1 So *not* all Mac-fans are fanatically Mac-only...>   --? +-------------------------------------------------------------+n? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   | @ +-------------------------------------------------------------+=   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 05:29:06 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i) Subject: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)e, Message-ID: <3C32E0ED.57921AC2@videotron.ca>  J Getting a router who has the ability to send its logs to a unix host using syslogd utility.  M Does TCPIP V5.0 have that capability ? Does anyone know what sort of protocold is used for this ?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:55:21 +0100< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de>- Subject: Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS) 4 Message-ID: <a0uouo$n84rp$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>  A JF Mezei schrieb in Nachricht <3C32E0ED.57921AC2@videotron.ca>... L > Getting a router who has the ability to send its logs to a unix host using > syslogd utility. > ( > Does TCPIP V5.0 have that capability ?  > AFAIK, none of the available IP stacks offers a syslog daemon.  * But Hunter Goatley has one in his archive:< http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?SYSLOGD  ; > Does anyone know what sort of protocol is used for this ?t  6 RFC 3164 (see ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc3164.txt).   cu,a   Martin --J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.detJ One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:19:28 GMT 3 From: "Tom Wade" <t.wade@vms.eurokom.ie.removespam> - Subject: Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)h- Message-ID: <kVCY7.4826$_3.16614@news.iol.ie>l  G "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> wrote in messagee. news:a0uouo$n84rp$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de...C > JF Mezei schrieb in Nachricht <3C32E0ED.57921AC2@videotron.ca>...hH > > Getting a router who has the ability to send its logs to a unix host usinge > > syslogd utility. > >r* > > Does TCPIP V5.0 have that capability ? >a@ > AFAIK, none of the available IP stacks offers a syslog daemon.  L Multinet has a SYSLOG service.  We have used it for routers that send SYSLOG	 messages.     L ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --H Tom Wade    | EMail: T.Wade@vms.eurokom.ie.nospam  (all domain mailers).G EuroKom     | X400:  g=tom;s=wade;o=eurokom;p=eurokom;a=eirmail400;c=ie & 30, Dale Rd | Tel:   +353 (1) 278-7878& Stillorgan  | Fax:   +353 (1) 278-78793 Co Dublin   | Disclaimer:  This is not a disclaimeru@ Ireland     | Tip:         "Friends don't let friends do Unix !"   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 14:04:10 +0100< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de>- Subject: Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS) 4 Message-ID: <a0v0gj$ne8r1$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>   Tom Wade wrote...  >e@ >"Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> wrote... >> JF Mezei wrote...I >> > Getting a router who has the ability to send its logs to a unix hosto >> > using syslogd utility.o >> >+ >> > Does TCPIP V5.0 have that capability ?6 >>A >> AFAIK, none of the available IP stacks offers a syslog daemon.  > G > Multinet has a SYSLOG service.  We have used it for routers that sendt SYSLOG > messages.P  < Oops... I should have known that. Thanks for the correction.   cu,    Martin --J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.dejJ One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:32:43 -0000* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>- Subject: Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)e+ Message-ID: <a0ur4q$gq6@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>y  a "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:3C32E0ED.57921AC2@videotron.ca...l  L > Getting a router who has the ability to send its logs to a unix host using > syslogd utility. >oO > Does TCPIP V5.0 have that capability ? Does anyone know what sort of protocol5 > is used for this ?  A No. The SYSLOG protocol (see RFC3164). There is a SYSLOGD port inl& Hunter Goatley's VMS Freeware archive.   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 02 Jan 02 09:56:14 GMTa From: jmfbahciv@aol.com ! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqy+ Message-ID: <a0ustv$so4$1@bob.news.rcn.net>   1 In article <3C323450.221EE51C@trailing-edge.com>, /    Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:e >Charlie Gibbs wrote:u >> n; >> In article <uellizv3m.fsf@earthlink.net> lynn@garlic.comt  >> (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes: >> lJ >> >... where "automated operator" is something of a heuristic methodologyJ >> >for automating various human interactions (minimizing various kinds ofH >> >human errors/mistakes ... which are starting to become an increasing, >> >serious factor in service availability). >>  G >> This is the result of the shift in mindset from batch to interactive H >> systems.  "Interactive" is seen as more desirable, compared to stodgyG >> old batch systems.  But, as you've pointed out, there is a downside.- > @ >What amazes me about "modern system design" is the large numberC >of boxes it takes to perform a single function.  It used to be thepD >case that you had a terminal, the terminal hooked to the mainframe.D >Now the whole industry seems designed around putting as many layersF >of middleware or "multi-tiered" in between the start and the end, andF >I honestly don't see the purpose most of the time.  The old mainframe@ >handled thousands of users on a single CPU with a few MIPS; how? >come it takes dozens of multi-GHz servers to do the same thing0 >today?s >E@ >I strongly suspect that this isn't the result of any conspiracyD >to sell more hardware, but it's more a lack of understanding by the >system architects.e  C I always thought that this was due to that "distributed processing" = craze gone awry.  Once the processing got doled out to piecest> of gear, collecting it back became impossible.  One reason was; that a piece would become a separate company.  Once it did,h: it would go off on its own business path without the leashA it would have had if the group had stayed within an organization.e   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.,   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 07:35:05 -0800 + From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>1! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqh) Message-ID: <a0v9b90165p@drn.newsguy.com>e  = In article <4495ef1f.0201012213.7a582c86@posting.google.com>,e  Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com says... >j7 >Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in messagec. >news:<3C323450.221EE51C@trailing-edge.com>...	 >> [snip]h >>B >> What amazes me about "modern system design" is the large numberE >> of boxes it takes to perform a single function.  It used to be theeF >> case that you had a terminal, the terminal hooked to the mainframe.F >> Now the whole industry seems designed around putting as many layersH >> of middleware or "multi-tiered" in between the start and the end, andH >> I honestly don't see the purpose most of the time.  The old mainframeB >> handled thousands of users on a single CPU with a few MIPS; howA >> come it takes dozens of multi-GHz servers to do the same thing 	 >> today?  >>  B >> I strongly suspect that this isn't the result of any conspiracyF >> to sell more hardware, but it's more a lack of understanding by the >> system architects.o >,F >I'd be willing to wager that any off the shelf Alpha could handle theE >thousands of users with terminal shells and the batch processed texts? >jobs of yesteryear, and still have plenty of cycles left over.e  A I agree... it *could*, but that's not the way people buy and sellhH systems (hardware+OS+software) anymore.  In fact, they haven't done thisA for a while - here's an interesting thing I trimmed out of an oldm journal nearly a decade ago:  D The quote from the December 6, 1993 edition of _Open Systems Today_:  =         For now, the most enthusiastic buyers of Alpha appeare<         to be existing DEC customers that need more hardware=         speed.  Such customers include Sprint, in Burlingame,t<         California, which has purchased 33 Alphas to replace2         a DEC PDP-11/70 it had been using  [ ... ]   Tim.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:11:35 GMTG+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>n! Subject: Re: The demise of compaq-) Message-ID: <usn9oenrr.fsf@earthlink.net>-  1 Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com (Brannon Batson) writes:iG > I'd be willing to wager that any off the shelf Alpha could handle the-F > thousands of users with terminal shells and the batch processed textE > jobs of yesteryear, and still have plenty of cycles left over.  ThetG > difference is that software has become more demanding of the hardwareRG > on a per-user basis, because (a) the users have become more demandingiH > of the software, and (b) as you said earlier, there are so many layersG > of cruft between the user's problem and the hardware that solves it. hH > I don't see how either of these are the fault of the system architect.  = for the web environment ... most of the gui stuff that is cpuaB demanding is on the front-end personal computers/workstations. the> back-end webservers (in principle operate very much the way ofF mainframe legacy systems doing online transactions) have suffered from! lack of scallable implementation.   F first web servers ran http over tcp/ip and spawned a new address spaceC and task for every http request. for web servers that operated at amC few transactions per minute there wasn't much of a scallable issue.   C http requests are effectively connectionless transactions ... while)@ tcp is a connection protocol ... tcp requires a minimum 7-packetE exchange for setup/teardown of the session, which is heavy-weight allhF by itself. FINWAIT was a tcp teardown mechanism to verify there wasn'tA any dangling packets and were all queued on a linear list and alloC incoming packets did linear search of the FINWAIT list to see if it C was a dangling packet. circa 1996, dynix was possibly the only unix-A that had experienced large numbers of FINWAIT and gone to FINWAITaE management that wasn't linear scan ... other webserver platforms that-D started experiencing high-number of "quick" connections resulting inC huge FINWAIT lists were starting to see 90% of total CPU devoted totB FINWAIT list scan. NETSCAPE kept adding servers for connections asA well as FTP downloads of new browswers ... picking the NETSCAPE1,wB NETSCAPE2, ... NETSCAPE19 node for connection was becoming a majorD topic. NETSCAPE saw a dramatic change when they put in a large dynix" configuration for NETSCAPE20 node.  C The use of (new) connection TCP for connectionless transaction HTTPvD has been a real scaling issue as well as spawning & then just having. different address space for every transaction.  E The other evolution for production webservers ... I believe was firstdB at YAHOO with the front-end routers with rotating routing to largeC pool of backend servers (I have recollections of discussing it with-B the vendor engineer responsible for the implementation). There hadE been Q&D hack to DNS prior to that to return rotating IP-address froms? pool but that was somewhat random and couldn't reach out to the D caching intermediate servers. The initial deployment of the rotatingC routing code at YAHOO allowed significantly improved load balancing  across the back-end servers.  F However, there still is significant extra computing resources expendedE in the web environment to use connection & command oriented paradigmsl2 in support of connectionless transaction activity.   -- aH Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 17:21:34 GMT + From: "Gary A. Gorgen" <gary1055@attbi.com>t! Subject: Re: The demise of compaq ) Message-ID: <3C33424C.8042B51A@attbi.com>a   Charlie Gibbs wrote: >    > --> The PHBs likelG > it because the newbies have bright, shiny new minds which are largelyhG > blank, ready to be filled with the latest mission statements.  It's arJ > lot easier to sell an idea if you don't have to contend with spoilsports; > who can draw on experience to tell you why it won't work.r  	 AND / OR,i' Reinvent software that already exists, c8 for a project that probably doesn't need to be done. :-)    $ > cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)7 > Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.YF > I don't read top-posted messages.  If you want me to see your reply,A > appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it.s   -- e: Gary A. Gorgen                  | "From ideas to PRODUCTS"4                                 | Tunxis Design Inc.K gary1055@attbi.com              | 10470 Pineville Ave. Cupertino, Ca. 95014n7                                 | Phone: (408) 973-1542,   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 17:29:48 GMTe2 From: "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld.pleaseremove@att.net>! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqiI Message-ID: <gsHY7.210347$WW.12278542@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>l  = "Walter Rottenkolber" <waltjr@sierratel.com> wrote in message # news:3c32a251@news.sierratel.com...- >-F > Tim Shoppa wrote in message <3C323450.221EE51C@trailing-edge.com>... > >Charlie Gibbs wrote:a > >>= > >> In article <uellizv3m.fsf@earthlink.net> lynn@garlic.comw" > >> (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes: > >>L > >> >... where "automated operator" is something of a heuristic methodologyL > >> >for automating various human interactions (minimizing various kinds ofJ > >> >human errors/mistakes ... which are starting to become an increasing. > >> >serious factor in service availability). > >>I > >> This is the result of the shift in mindset from batch to interactiveAJ > >> systems.  "Interactive" is seen as more desirable, compared to stodgyI > >> old batch systems.  But, as you've pointed out, there is a downside.  > > B > >What amazes me about "modern system design" is the large numberE > >of boxes it takes to perform a single function.  It used to be theoF > >case that you had a terminal, the terminal hooked to the mainframe.F > >Now the whole industry seems designed around putting as many layersH > >of middleware or "multi-tiered" in between the start and the end, andH > >I honestly don't see the purpose most of the time.  The old mainframeB > >handled thousands of users on a single CPU with a few MIPS; howA > >come it takes dozens of multi-GHz servers to do the same thingn	 > >today?^ > > B > >I strongly suspect that this isn't the result of any conspiracyF > >to sell more hardware, but it's more a lack of understanding by the > >system architects.; > >- > >Tim.a >CI > The GUI is partly to blame. Users like the eye candy approach. The technL > revolution also lets you buy a system that runs all this complex stuff for+ > $1000 less than a Kaypro II cost in 1983.1  L The GUI, etc. is a major part of it.  Another part is that the general trendL toward lower hardware costs and higher people costs has led to software thatJ uses machine resources to relieve people resources.  For example, for mostL applications, a well tuned hirearchical database (e.g. IMS)application wouldK use a lot less computer resources than a relational one (e.g. DB2), but thecB development cost would be much larger for any complex application.   --  - Stephen Fulda+    e-mail address disguised to prevent spam    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 17:26:30 GMTo1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)n! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqt+ Message-ID: <a0vfs6$unp$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>e  ) In article <a0v9b90165p@drn.newsguy.com>,o.  Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes: |>G |> The quote from the December 6, 1993 edition of _Open Systems Today_:u |> o@ |>         For now, the most enthusiastic buyers of Alpha appear? |>         to be existing DEC customers that need more hardware*@ |>         speed.  Such customers include Sprint, in Burlingame,? |>         California, which has purchased 33 Alphas to replacee5 |>         a DEC PDP-11/70 it had been using  [ ... ]-  I That being the case, anybody want to trade me a few dozen Alpha boxes for- one of my 11/44's??  :-)   bill   -- 0J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   g   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 18:17:43 GMTt) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>-! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqe' Message-ID: <3C3369F7.81621A35@ev1.net>M   Walter Rottenkolber wrote: > F > Tim Shoppa wrote in message <3C323450.221EE51C@trailing-edge.com>... > >Charlie Gibbs wrote:D > >>= > >> In article <uellizv3m.fsf@earthlink.net> lynn@garlic.com2" > >> (Anne & Lynn Wheeler) writes: > >>L > >> >... where "automated operator" is something of a heuristic methodologyL > >> >for automating various human interactions (minimizing various kinds ofJ > >> >human errors/mistakes ... which are starting to become an increasing. > >> >serious factor in service availability). > >>I > >> This is the result of the shift in mindset from batch to interactivetJ > >> systems.  "Interactive" is seen as more desirable, compared to stodgyI > >> old batch systems.  But, as you've pointed out, there is a downside.a > > B > >What amazes me about "modern system design" is the large numberE > >of boxes it takes to perform a single function.  It used to be thenF > >case that you had a terminal, the terminal hooked to the mainframe.F > >Now the whole industry seems designed around putting as many layersH > >of middleware or "multi-tiered" in between the start and the end, andH > >I honestly don't see the purpose most of the time.  The old mainframeB > >handled thousands of users on a single CPU with a few MIPS; howA > >come it takes dozens of multi-GHz servers to do the same thing 	 > >today?3 > >EB > >I strongly suspect that this isn't the result of any conspiracyF > >to sell more hardware, but it's more a lack of understanding by the > >system architects.e > >  > >Tim.y > I > The GUI is partly to blame. Users like the eye candy approach. The techtL > revolution also lets you buy a system that runs all this complex stuff for+ > $1000 less than a Kaypro II cost in 1983.- > D Yes, I always thought that the "middle-ware" approach was created soF that users could have their "eye candy", and the real processing couldF be done by the same old program on the mainframe written in COBOL backH in the dark ages. Heck, they might re-write the old mainframe stuff *if*" they could find the source code!!!   -- n? +-------------------------------------------------------------+-? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |0? +-------------------------------------------------------------+u   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 18:21:54 GMT@) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>.! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqn' Message-ID: <3C336AF2.919D2BFD@ev1.net>J   Tim Shoppa wrote:> > , >      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...] > F > The quote from the December 6, 1993 edition of _Open Systems Today_: > ? >         For now, the most enthusiastic buyers of Alpha appeara> >         to be existing DEC customers that need more hardware? >         speed.  Such customers include Sprint, in Burlingame, > >         California, which has purchased 33 Alphas to replace4 >         a DEC PDP-11/70 it had been using  [ ... ] > C 33 Alphas!!! What kind of PDP-11/70 did they have??? Are you saying A that all the extra power of the Alphas over and above a PDP-11/70/3 was eaten up by drawing pretty pictures on GUI's???s   -- t? +-------------------------------------------------------------+-? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |i? +-------------------------------------------------------------+V   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 13:23:47 -0500 From: William_Bochnik@acml.com! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqt> Message-ID: <OFE640CEA7.435A0FA1-ON85256B35.00650136@acml.com>  @ They probably installed NT and needed the horsepower just to get them to boot :-)        ^                                                                                               ^                       Charles Richmond                                                        ^                       <richmond@ev1.ne                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com              ^                       t>                              cc:                                     ^                                                Subject: Re: The demise of compaq              ^                       01/02/2002 01:21                                                        ^                       PM                                                                      ^                       Please respond                                                          ^                       to Charles                                                              ^                       Richmond                                                                ^                       <richmond@ev1.ne                                                        ^                       t>                                                                      ^                                                                                               ^                                                                                                      Tim Shoppa wrote:o >i, >      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...] >n> > The quote from the December 6, 1993 edition of _Open Systems Today_:o >m? >         For now, the most enthusiastic buyers of Alpha appearM> >         to be existing DEC customers that need more hardware? >         speed.  Such customers include Sprint, in Burlingame, > >         California, which has purchased 33 Alphas to replace4 >         a DEC PDP-11/70 it had been using  [ ... ] > < 33 Alphas!!! What kind of PDP-11/70 did they have??? Are you sayingA that all the extra power of the Alphas over and above a PDP-11/70a3 was eaten up by drawing pretty pictures on GUI's???w   --? +-------------------------------------------------------------+u? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |v? +-------------------------------------------------------------+           F ______________________________________________________________________;  The information contained in this transmission may containn@ privileged and confidential information and is intended only forA the use of the person(s) name above.  If you are not the intendedc= recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering 3 this message to the intended recipient, any review,g@ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication? is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient,bA please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroyb# all copies of the original message.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 18:23:15 GMT   From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs8 Message-ID: <vrj63u0pmei7r2o4070du2ijojujr0ma1a@4ax.com>  B Well, I suspect that Fred gets the same internal 'VMS Wins' e-mail that I receive regularly.P  E Of course, we can't tell you what specific customers are doing, but I C can say that I've seen hundreds of millions of $$$ in VMS wins overo? the last month or two.  Is this a "downturn"?  I have no way ofo knowing.  > But his statement that we are selling new VMS systems is true.  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaqs- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)h   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 13:23:55 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>a8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs1 Message-ID: <2hIY7.219$5Y4.4258@news.cpqcorp.net>    Bill Todd wrote in message ... >e= >"David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in messagem" >news:3C310FAB.5AA2A057@fsi.net... >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  >> >: >> > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageA >> > news:k63X7.426574$8q.36130243@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.... >> > > >J >> > > >    There's even more worrying news for Compaq as sales of OpenVMS >areK >> > > >    also declining, with the blamesters at Qastle Qapellas pointing. >theE >> > > >    finger at poor marketeering and kow-towing to the bosses.r >> > >J >> > > I'm sure Fred will correct this misconception as soon as he returns >from I >> > > vacation, since he's already made it clear that recent events will  >onlyi	 >> > helpw& >> > > VMS's continuing 'renaissance'. >> > > >> >I >> > What I've said is that IPF is not the end of the world, or VMS.  And  >indeedoL >> > has a very large upside potential.  The period we are in before we haveJ >> > completed the port, and emerged from a serious economic downturn - isI >> > dangerous and unpredictable.  I've also said that despite it all, wew& >> > continue to sell new VMS systems. >># >> An as yet unsubstantiated claim.e >eG >Well, I'm in no way inclined to call Fred a liar:  I certainly believeoJ >they're selling *some* new VMS systems.  I just doubt that it's nearly asK >many as they used to sell, and thus question his implication (based on thecE >sales he's quoting) that VMS's health is still just fine, thank you.e >m    L I have no huge insights into the OpenVMS sales figures.  I would assume thatD we, like everyone else in the industry, are participating in a toughJ business cycle.  What I have not heard directly, indirectly, or by rumor -K is that OpenVMS sales have been hit any worse than any other segment of thenL industry.  What I do see, is a continuing stream of "wins" (in a report thatI is distributed internally), with lots of $$$ associated with them.  TheseiL reports do not contain all OpenVMS sales, but are highlights and large wins.1 They do not seem to have slowed down perceptably.h  I So I guess while I can't say ('cause I don't know) what the sales are fori OpenVMS, it hasn't flatlined.c   >>C >> > But I'm sure that you are jumping in glee over the prospect ofc	 something1 >bad< >> > happening to VMS.  It is, after all, one of your goals. >>5 >> How little you understand Bill, myself and others.n >>7 >> Our goal is *NOT* to see anything bad happen to VMS.x >>I >> Our goal is to *PREVENT* any further bad things happening to VMS. Thisw6 >> is why we try to show Compaq the error of its ways. >iL >I suspect that Fred believes such efforts can only hurt VMS.  And, unless aJ >major management change occurs, he may be right.  So the question becomesL >whether the risk of further hurting VMS (if such management change does notI >occur) outweighs the potential benefit that might occur if management issK >replaced (especially if this occurs because of the drastic negative impactaL >current management is seen to have had on Compaq's most profitable business >segments).r >a  < The earth may slow it's rotation here, but I think we agree.  J I do not believe that encouraging people to abandon OpenVMS will encourageK the replacement of management by the BOD of Compaq (or HP should the merger E succeed).  Nor do I believe that the debate over how/why future Alphan- development was cancelled, will revive Alpha.n  J >My belief is that on the current path VMS is toast, at least for anythingL >beyond maintenance-level activity.  So I don't feel there's much to lose byF >trying to shake things up, and damn good reason to do so (not only toI >increase VMS's future potential, but to let corporations know that therep are F >*some* things customers simply won't take lying down, and thus have aD >salutary effect on future decisions).  Other viewpoints may differ. >   J VMS isn't quite as bad off as being maintenance level.  Would I like it ifI we could increase our engineering budget?  Sure.  But we continue to make J enhancements to OpenVMS, and will be doing a lot of new performance work -? in addition to the "new" work of porting to a new architecture.   J As long as OpenVMS is a high-margin, profitable business - I think OpenVMSL will continue forward, and we will provide a product that is viable.  We canL disagree over performance of IA64 relative to mythical future generations ofI Alpha - but in the end, for the large majority of OpenVMS Alpha users, weoK will have a viable IA64 alternative to Alpha, and migration path beyond thej
 end of Alpha.l  E The only thing that can be achieved by encouraging a migration off of J OpenVMS, is to increase the odds of OpenVMS profits shrinking to the pointI where it is no longer important enough to continue development - at whichtJ time you will find out what maintenance mode really is.  In my opinion, itJ won't lead to some shareholder revolt to oust the BOD or senior managementJ over the demise of an O/S.  Heck, even if it *did* it is unlikely that theH actions of new management would be to revive Alpha, and make "major new"2 investments in OpenVMS - that is wishful thinking.  I If upper management really wanted to kill OpenVMS, they would have put usuJ into maintenance mode, on Alpha/VAX only, when EV8 was cancelled.  InsteadD they have committed to a port to Itanium, and have lived up to theirC committment to fund it, and have put into place programs to protect-G customers current and future investments.   Once the port is completed, J OpenVMS will be in a position to run on "industry standard" hardware - notL tied to a system platform vendor.  I think that is a good position to be in,< even if I hope that we sell lots of Compaq (or HP) hardware.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:55:09 +0100f1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>g8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs5 Message-ID: <3C33578D.2FE85BC5@swissonline.delete.ch>i   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >  >..tN > I have no huge insights into the OpenVMS sales figures.  I would assume thatF > we, like everyone else in the industry, are participating in a toughL > business cycle.  What I have not heard directly, indirectly, or by rumor -M > is that OpenVMS sales have been hit any worse than any other segment of thesN > industry.  What I do see, is a continuing stream of "wins" (in a report thatK > is distributed internally), with lots of $$$ associated with them.  These N > reports do not contain all OpenVMS sales, but are highlights and large wins.3 > They do not seem to have slowed down perceptably.n  F Can you tell us if these are a small number of large orders or a large number of small orders ?  H Also can you indicate if they are largely existing customers or is there6 a sizable proportion of customers who are new to VMS ?  H (I appreciate that you can't tell us who, what and where, but neither of4 my questions will indentify any of these customers.)  A If the customers are new, how did they find out about VMS ?  Doesy" stealth marketing really happen ?    >  ...f >  ...1 > L > As long as OpenVMS is a high-margin, profitable business - I think OpenVMSK > will continue forward, and we will provide a product that is viable.  ...r  D But why is Compaq not advertising it ?  Don't tell me that Compaq is1 happy with its total income at the moment....??? t     K > If upper management really wanted to kill OpenVMS, they would have put ussL > into maintenance mode, on Alpha/VAX only, when EV8 was cancelled.  InsteadF > they have committed to a port to Itanium, and have lived up to theirE > committment to fund it, and have put into place programs to protect-+ > customers current and future investments.o  C So they have committed funds to the port ... pity they can't commitd funds to publicising VMS ....a    " But thanks for some positive news,     John McLean@   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 01:59:21 -0800>- From: tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell)n1 Subject: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"w= Message-ID: <9f261edc.0201020159.66999783@posting.google.com>e  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/02010201.htmw  
 Discuss...   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 05:27:56 -0500r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" , Message-ID: <3C32E0A7.F9DB5EAD@videotron.ca>   Chris Bardell wrote: > ) > http://www.theinquirer.net/02010201.htm0 >  > Discuss...  L Not much said in that article. And I would debate the fact that Compaq wouldK need someone to keep the torch burning for 15 yeasr due to DII CEO. I would C think that Compaq would be able to garantee support of existing VMS  configurations for 15 years.  N The big question is whether DII-COE requires that the vendor actively continueL to develop and marklet the system. That is what I had originally heard here,M but when I heard Marcello speak at a customer presentation, he mentioned that2I DII-COE would garantee support of customers' configurations for 15 years.lK (makes sense since if you spend megabucks building JSTARS, you want to makewM sure that you can get support for parts/software that was used to build thosemN planes. It isn't clear whether they expect to see new versions of VMS moved to the JSTARS planes.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 05:42:10 -0800>( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201020542.2bb1870f@posting.google.com>n  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3C32E0A7.F9DB5EAD@videotron.ca>...  > Chris Bardell wrote: > > + > > http://www.theinquirer.net/02010201.htma > >  > > Discuss... > N > Not much said in that article. And I would debate the fact that Compaq wouldM > need someone to keep the torch burning for 15 yeasr due to DII CEO. I wouldmE > think that Compaq would be able to garantee support of existing VMSe > configurations for 15 years. > P > The big question is whether DII-COE requires that the vendor actively continueN > to develop and marklet the system. That is what I had originally heard here,O > but when I heard Marcello speak at a customer presentation, he mentioned thatrK > DII-COE would garantee support of customers' configurations for 15 years.aM > (makes sense since if you spend megabucks building JSTARS, you want to make O > sure that you can get support for parts/software that was used to build those.P > planes. It isn't clear whether they expect to see new versions of VMS moved to > the JSTARS planes.  L there is a lot in the article ... it consistently shows what lame brains decK and compaq have working there ... they consistently screw up agreements andaH settlements and contracts by omitting key clauses that would benefit theH company ... why do these people even work there if they are such idiots?   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:51:41 GMT-1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)-5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"d+ Message-ID: <a0vaad$rts$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>-  , In article <3C32E0A7.F9DB5EAD@videotron.ca>,0  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: |>O |> Not much said in that article. And I would debate the fact that Compaq wouldcN |> need someone to keep the torch burning for 15 yeasr due to DII CEO. I wouldF |> think that Compaq would be able to garantee support of existing VMS |> configurations for 15 years.e  I Also, not meaning to rain on anyones parade, but in 1994 when Mentec tookaH over the PDP-11 Software from DEC they did not get IAS.  Supposedly, theG reason for this was one of those government contracts that rewquired 20iI some years of support.  That was 8 years ago.  Recent attempts to extract G some kind of a hobbyist program for IAS on the PDP-11 were met with thehF information that no one at Compaq was aware of any IAS software still I being in existence.  Not in source or binary format.  Anyone who has eversH worked with the US governement as a contractor is aware of the fact thatF contracts run from year to year and must be renewed.  Funds can not beE committed beyond the end of a given fiscal year.  Any contract can be-% terminated by merely not renewing it.J   bill   -- 7J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:05:16 -0700 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com>e5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" B Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020102090226.00aa1278@raptor.psccos.com>  , At 08:51 AM 1/2/2002, Bill Gunshannon wrote:- >In article <3C32E0A7.F9DB5EAD@videotron.ca>,c2 >  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >|> K >|> Not much said in that article. And I would debate the fact that Compaq   >wouldO >|> need someone to keep the torch burning for 15 yeasr due to DII CEO. I would G >|> think that Compaq would be able to garantee support of existing VMS   >|> configurations for 15 years. > J >Also, not meaning to rain on anyones parade, but in 1994 when Mentec tookI >over the PDP-11 Software from DEC they did not get IAS.  Supposedly, the H >reason for this was one of those government contracts that rewquired 20J >some years of support.  That was 8 years ago.  Recent attempts to extractH >some kind of a hobbyist program for IAS on the PDP-11 were met with theF >information that no one at Compaq was aware of any IAS software stillJ >being in existence.  Not in source or binary format.  Anyone who has everI >worked with the US governement as a contractor is aware of the fact that G >contracts run from year to year and must be renewed.  Funds can not behF >committed beyond the end of a given fiscal year.  Any contract can be& >terminated by merely not renewing it.  I On the other hand, getting permission to change the specs of a governmentyH contract (I worked on Star Wars for the government myself) takes a majorJ act of God, just about.  Ergo, while it's true that the gov't could simplyI say "we're not using VMS now, we're switching to UNIX/WNT/whatever", it's K EXTREMELY unlikely that could happen, particularly with budgets these days.-I For example, changing vendors/software/os on the JSTARS project would sethE that back by at least a couple of years, and that project is just too % valuable to the DOD to do that to it.-   ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+<I | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       |-I | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  |_I | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" |oI | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    |hI +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+,   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 17:11:48 +0100n1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>r5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"l5 Message-ID: <3C333144.A6DF7AF8@swissonline.delete.ch>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > . > In article <3C32E0A7.F9DB5EAD@videotron.ca>,2 >  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > |>Q > |> Not much said in that article. And I would debate the fact that Compaq wouldcP > |> need someone to keep the torch burning for 15 yeasr due to DII CEO. I wouldH > |> think that Compaq would be able to garantee support of existing VMS! > |> configurations for 15 years.i > K > Also, not meaning to rain on anyones parade, but in 1994 when Mentec took J > over the PDP-11 Software from DEC they did not get IAS.  Supposedly, theI > reason for this was one of those government contracts that rewquired 20.K > some years of support.  That was 8 years ago.  Recent attempts to extractaI > some kind of a hobbyist program for IAS on the PDP-11 were met with theeG > information that no one at Compaq was aware of any IAS software still K > being in existence.  Not in source or binary format.  Anyone who has evercJ > worked with the US governement as a contractor is aware of the fact thatH > contracts run from year to year and must be renewed.  Funds can not beG > committed beyond the end of a given fiscal year.  Any contract can beA' > terminated by merely not renewing it.e   Now that's interesting....  H I had wondered about the Compaq's degree of commitment and obligations. F Of course a blind man could see that they would be foolish to withdraw( from DII COE, but will Compaq see it ???  H The next time I hear Compaq say "our commitment to VMS is a strong as itF ever was" (or "we will continue our commitment to VMS") I know that it is a time to worry ...     John McLean    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 14:34:23 GMT>4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"u> Message-ID: <PTEY7.49995$Sj1.20335510@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message>7 news:d7791aa1.0201020542.2bb1870f@posting.google.com...i: > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( news:<3C32E0A7.F9DB5EAD@videotron.ca>... > > Chris Bardell wrote: > > >l- > > > http://www.theinquirer.net/02010201.htm  > > >  > > > Discuss... > >>J > > Not much said in that article. And I would debate the fact that Compaq wouldaI > > need someone to keep the torch burning for 15 yeasr due to DII CEO. Iu wouldtG > > think that Compaq would be able to garantee support of existing VMSm  > > configurations for 15 years. > >uI > > The big question is whether DII-COE requires that the vendor actively  continueJ > > to develop and marklet the system. That is what I had originally heard here, L > > but when I heard Marcello speak at a customer presentation, he mentioned thatF > > DII-COE would garantee support of customers' configurations for 15 years.J > > (makes sense since if you spend megabucks building JSTARS, you want to makeK > > sure that you can get support for parts/software that was used to builds those I > > planes. It isn't clear whether they expect to see new versions of VMSi moved to > > the JSTARS planes. >mJ > there is a lot in the article ... it consistently shows what lame brains dectI > and compaq have working there ... they consistently screw up agreementsB andmJ > settlements and contracts by omitting key clauses that would benefit theJ > company ... why do these people even work there if they are such idiots?  L Compaq seems to have its share of clueless folks, I would not assign such anK appellation to Rich Marcello. Note that he managed to turn VMS around afterh* Wes "Affinity" Melling's reign of NTerror.  6 Methinks the problem lies elsewhere in the food chain.   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:17:49 -0700 (MST)" From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"hG Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0201021016480.31508-100000@athena.csdco.com>e   Terry,  G It would be helpful to know specific names to be able to write letters.s  
 John Nebel    + On Wed, 2 Jan 2002, Terry C. Shannon wrote:s   > 7 > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messaget9 > news:d7791aa1.0201020542.2bb1870f@posting.google.com...i< > > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message* > news:<3C32E0A7.F9DB5EAD@videotron.ca>... > > > Chris Bardell wrote: > > > >(/ > > > > http://www.theinquirer.net/02010201.htmi > > > >t > > > > Discuss... > > >rL > > > Not much said in that article. And I would debate the fact that Compaq > woulduK > > > need someone to keep the torch burning for 15 yeasr due to DII CEO. Ii > would I > > > think that Compaq would be able to garantee support of existing VMSg" > > > configurations for 15 years. > > > K > > > The big question is whether DII-COE requires that the vendor activelye
 > continueL > > > to develop and marklet the system. That is what I had originally heard > here,oN > > > but when I heard Marcello speak at a customer presentation, he mentioned > thatH > > > DII-COE would garantee support of customers' configurations for 15 > years.L > > > (makes sense since if you spend megabucks building JSTARS, you want to > makeM > > > sure that you can get support for parts/software that was used to build  > thosesK > > > planes. It isn't clear whether they expect to see new versions of VMSu
 > moved to > > > the JSTARS planes. > >aL > > there is a lot in the article ... it consistently shows what lame brains > deceK > > and compaq have working there ... they consistently screw up agreements  > andwL > > settlements and contracts by omitting key clauses that would benefit theL > > company ... why do these people even work there if they are such idiots? > N > Compaq seems to have its share of clueless folks, I would not assign such anM > appellation to Rich Marcello. Note that he managed to turn VMS around afterc, > Wes "Affinity" Melling's reign of NTerror. > 8 > Methinks the problem lies elsewhere in the food chain. >  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 17:21:33 GMTn4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future""> Message-ID: <xkHY7.50038$Sj1.20417948@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  / "John Nebel" <nebel@csdco.com> wrote in messagelA news:Pine.OSF.4.21.0201021016480.31508-100000@athena.csdco.com...w >c > Terry, >sI > It would be helpful to know specific names to be able to write letters.   J I don't want to get into the blame game. From what I have seen Mark GorhamG is doing a good job with the resources at his disposal and the rules of D engagement under which he must operate. Same goes for Rich Marcello.  B Other good Friends of VMS include Fred Kleinsorge, Kerry Main, SueE Skonetski, Hoff Hoffman, and other Compaq contributors to this forum.-   cheers,-   terry s-   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 17:38:53 GMTm1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)q5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"5+ Message-ID: <a0vgjd$v8q$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>K  B In article <5.1.0.14.2.20020102090226.00aa1278@raptor.psccos.com>,(  Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> writes: |> eL |> On the other hand, getting permission to change the specs of a governmentK |> contract (I worked on Star Wars for the government myself) takes a majorM |> act of God, just about.    G It's always been a very one-sided arrangement in the governments favor.nI But then, this is taken into consideration when putting bids together andtI adequate compensation is always built into any contract.  this is one of SL the reasons people look at these contracts and can't believe the price tags.  M Take your well known $500.00 hammer.  Most likely scenario was the government M said give me a price on 100,000 custom designed hammers, but I only guaranteel we'll buy 50 of them.  s  L It was a strange way to do business, but sometimes I miss it.  Even the lateJ night bid parties and the last minute trip to Kinkos to get all the copiesF printed so they could be presented by 10:00 AM the next morning!!  :-)  L |>                         Ergo, while it's true that the gov't could simplyL |> say "we're not using VMS now, we're switching to UNIX/WNT/whatever", it's) |> EXTREMELY unlikely that could happen, a  I Well, my entry into the world of Contracting was as a System Engineer fordG a good sized collection of Pr1me Minis.  We were 2 years into an 8 year G contract when the Army notified my contract manager that they would not K be renewing.  It didn't bother me, as there was plenty of other interesting J work going on and my employment was never in jeopardy, but I have seen theJ employees of smaller and less reputable contracting firms who did not fare as well.  N |>                                       particularly with budgets these days.L |> For example, changing vendors/software/os on the JSTARS project would setH |> that back by at least a couple of years, and that project is just too( |> valuable to the DOD to do that to it.  I True, I guess, but I hardly think one project, even the size of this, is eG enough to keep Compaq afloat.  I should mention, one of the reasons why6H my contract went away was the perception of this particular DOD customerC that Pr1me was not long for the world.  Turns out, they were right.0   bill   -- 0J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   .   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 17:48:33 GMTq* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"mB Message-ID: <RJHY7.489854$8q.41081208@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messagea8 news:PTEY7.49995$Sj1.20335510@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...   ....  K > Compaq seems to have its share of clueless folks, I would not assign sucha anG > appellation to Rich Marcello. Note that he managed to turn VMS around  afterr, > Wes "Affinity" Melling's reign of NTerror. >n8 > Methinks the problem lies elsewhere in the food chain.  E Unfortunately, at levels where Rich is an eatee rather than an eater.l   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 12:36:21 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)-5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"m3 Message-ID: <qG6Py$eO6PyS@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  i In article <3C333144.A6DF7AF8@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> writes:M  H > Of course a blind man could see that they would be foolish to withdraw* > from DII COE, but will Compaq see it ???  B They validated Tru64 to a previous DII COE specification and foundC that the government agencies were not interested.  They wanted VMS.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:46:59 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>a5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"o5 Message-ID: <3C3355A3.E56CF42E@swissonline.delete.ch>-   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > k > In article <3C333144.A6DF7AF8@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> writes:I > J > > Of course a blind man could see that they would be foolish to withdraw, > > from DII COE, but will Compaq see it ??? > D > They validated Tru64 to a previous DII COE specification and foundE > that the government agencies were not interested.  They wanted VMS.o    E I suppose it's a moot point to ask if Tru64 as offering clustering at F the time, there being no future for Tru64 if the merger goes ahead ...     John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 13:50:48 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"l1 Message-ID: <gGIY7.221$5Y4.4503@news.cpqcorp.net>e  C What in the world is there to discuss.  Eva Glass (whoever that is)-5 apparently gets paid by the word, and not by content.i  H "Alphacide causing fury at Intel" (the sub-title) - eh?  What was this a
 reference to?u  H The only evidence she presents to back up her title of "Now Compaq's VMSJ future wobbling badly" is that Intel won't "endorse" VMS...  Eh?   I'm not1 sure what it would mean for them to "endorse" us.e  E Then she quotes someone in "the Valley" which I can only assume meansn someone *at Intel* about it.  K I gotta ask:  Eva - does this crap pay well?  I could roll out of bed everyS2 morning and crank out content free junk like that.       Chris Bardell wrote in message4 <9f261edc.0201020159.66999783@posting.google.com>...( >http://www.theinquirer.net/02010201.htm >e >Discuss...    ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 00:24:34 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"A0 Message-ID: <87wuz0ra9p.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:t   > Chris Bardell wrote:  + > > http://www.theinquirer.net/02010201.htms   > > Discuss...  A > Not much said in that article. And I would debate the fact thataF > Compaq would need someone to keep the torch burning for 15 yeasr dueA > to DII CEO. I would think that Compaq would be able to garanteee6 > support of existing VMS configurations for 15 years.  > > The big question is whether DII-COE requires that the vendorE > actively continue to develop and marklet the system. That is what InA > had originally heard here, but when I heard Marcello speak at a A > customer presentation, he mentioned that DII-COE would garantee B > support of customers' configurations for 15 years.  (makes senseE > since if you spend megabucks building JSTARS, you want to make sureeD > that you can get support for parts/software that was used to buildF > those planes. It isn't clear whether they expect to see new versions$ > of VMS moved to the JSTARS planes.  A DOD and friends are probably having a good up front inspection ofi? all the vendors promises as they replace the stuff destroyed insE the penta gone. And asking hard questions when the 'Ahms' and 'Ahhhs'  start to flow.  B I wonder what the promises on Vax sparing where? DOD can be pretty' hard arse on this when they need to be.i   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.y@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:22:07 +0100 (MET)w9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>o! Subject: Re: VMS as a career moven; Message-ID: <01KCLM9ZFEPQ8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>o  K > > >                                                       we're just damnwJ > > > lucky it was taken advantage of by several someones as competent and  > > > scrupulous as RMS and LT). > >lI > > Did I miss the smiley??  Those are hardly the same adjectives I wouldp > > use to describe those two. > 5 > No smiley... you however must be taking the piss...j > J > If there is any role model for me in the entire computing world, it must# > be RMS.  All pluses, all minuses.w  F Assuming Richard M. Stallman is intended: I once read a speech of his F which is somewhere on a web site in Norway.  Rarely in my life have I H been so afraid of what society would be like if his ideas really became E commonplace.  He shows a complete lack of disrespect for basic human hC rights such as privacy ("I liked a system where I could read other -G people's email").  Of course, his entire philosophy is a bit illogical  5 since for some reason he only applies it to software.   H I appreciate well written software and if someone wants to charge money I for it, then that is a matter between him and the customer; if you don't  D want it, don't buy it.  To state, categorically, that it is morally D wrong to charge money for software is, in my book, a very dangerous  proposition.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 08:15:24 GMTm- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)eL Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was HP admits it will kill VMS if merger5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-8EdwQ7cETCyb@localhost>t  F On Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:06:52, Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> wrote:  J > In article <3C302F81.B69D47E8@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLean wrote: > > Rob Young wrote: > > > D > > >  Not so... a big niche that wasn't even around then has sprungG > > >  up, cellular phone billing.  Recent new niche is cell phone textVJ > > >  messaging and that is huge in Europe.  270 billion messages sent inL > > >  2001.  Americans are trailing in that usage but soon we start playingI > > >  with text next year.  Funny, Americans big on cheap Internet usageoH > > >  and Europeans on the cutting edge of peer to peer text messaging.9 > > >  Maybe because they have expensive Internet access?  > > >  > > 7 > > Come on guys, don't suppose, ask someone in Europe.m > > H > > No internet is not expensive here.  I pay about USD 55 per month for$ > > cable access (often at 800 Kbs). > >nL > With respect John, you obviously haven't dealt with Brtitsh Telecom (BT). # > We are lucky here in Switzerland.m > L > The phone and internet services here knock the cr*p out of what I came to J > expect in the UK. UK - 1995, I climbed onto Compuserve and in the first E > month it cost me over 100 UKP (then USD ~165) in phone bills alone mL > (dropped connections and busy lines galore, and BT were charging 10 pence L > a shot for an engaged tone), plus the Compuserve connection fee. Needless L > to say, I found ways to reduce that drastically, but Joe and Jane Average E > definitely didn't. I believe our German friends also suffered from t; > extortionate practices at the hands of Deutsche Telekomm.- > M > On the mobile front, with a view to treating a nephew in the UK, I visited eJ > the British Telecom site yesterday, and found that pay as you go phones K > are subject to a minimum charge of 10UKP per 30 days. OTOH, mine happily CJ > chirps on with something like 35 USD every six months, and it does SMS, . > can send email, and works internationally... > ___m > Paul Sture
 > Switzerlands   PaulD          I'm not an expert on mobile phones (I have one that spends B most of its life switched off) but to be fair to poor old BT, the D whole of the UK mobile market (IIRC) was criticised for its pricing E practices, particularly international roaming, in a recent report. I gE can't remember whose, I caught it on BBC News while on my VMS-career e' related business in the UK in November)m  D My above mentioned mobile (German E-Plus) doesn't work in the UK at F all. Doesn't bother me much, I just use BT land when I'm there. As forF Internet costs in Germany, yes after the 23pf unlimited local call wasE abolished, costs went up for heavy users. In the days of Fidonet and dF 300/1200 and then 2400 baud, the 23pf felt quite cheap...Switching to F Compuserve did put the phone bill up. We average about 120Dm (Euro 60)D a month now and that doesn't seem much in comparison top some of my  colleagues.    -- d Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:14:57 +0000  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.comL Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was HP admits it will kill VMS if merger: Message-ID: <OF102AFA7E.50069313-ON00256B35.00537CB6@btyp>  H If that's the case then it's only BT [and presumably Cellnet is what youJ were looking at] that does that, and as far as I know they aren't SUPPOSED to be doing so.   H All the other mobile operators don't have minimum charges, and as I onlyJ use my mobile for SMS and incoming calls [as a rule, emergencies excepted]' a UKP10 phone card will last me months.l   Steve Sn        C Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> on 01/01/2002 11:06:52 AM-    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:2K From:      Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>, 1 January 2002, 11:06R            a.m.m  C Re: VMS as a career move ( was HP admits it will kill VMS if merger5    H In article <3C302F81.B69D47E8@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLean wrote: > Rob Young wrote: > >eB > >  Not so... a big niche that wasn't even around then has sprungE > >  up, cellular phone billing.  Recent new niche is cell phone text H > >  messaging and that is huge in Europe.  270 billion messages sent inJ > >  2001.  Americans are trailing in that usage but soon we start playingG > >  with text next year.  Funny, Americans big on cheap Internet usagetF > >  and Europeans on the cutting edge of peer to peer text messaging.7 > >  Maybe because they have expensive Internet access?a > >a >o5 > Come on guys, don't suppose, ask someone in Europe.r >gF > No internet is not expensive here.  I pay about USD 55 per month for" > cable access (often at 800 Kbs). >nI With respect John, you obviously haven't dealt with Brtitsh Telecom (BT).i! We are lucky here in Switzerland.   I The phone and internet services here knock the cr*p out of what I came tosG expect in the UK. UK - 1995, I climbed onto Compuserve and in the firstpB month it cost me over 100 UKP (then USD ~165) in phone bills aloneI (dropped connections and busy lines galore, and BT were charging 10 pence I a shot for an engaged tone), plus the Compuserve connection fee. NeedlessaI to say, I found ways to reduce that drastically, but Joe and Jane Average B definitely didn't. I believe our German friends also suffered from9 extortionate practices at the hands of Deutsche Telekomm.a  J On the mobile front, with a view to treating a nephew in the UK, I visitedG the British Telecom site yesterday, and found that pay as you go phoneslH are subject to a minimum charge of 10UKP per 30 days. OTOH, mine happilyG chirps on with something like 35 USD every six months, and it does SMS,v, can send email, and works internationally... ___q
 Paul Sture Switzerlando            F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message has-G been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce, $ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have receivedoK this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.d  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228..  I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, D RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:26:19 +0100e1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>aL Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was HP admits it will kill VMS if merger5 Message-ID: <3C33269B.AB5E41B2@swissonline.delete.ch>M  ! Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:B > J > If that's the case then it's only BT [and presumably Cellnet is what youL > were looking at] that does that, and as far as I know they aren't SUPPOSED > to be doing so.s > J > All the other mobile operators don't have minimum charges, and as I onlyL > use my mobile for SMS and incoming calls [as a rule, emergencies excepted]) > a UKP10 phone card will last me months.a > 	 > Steve S>  	 Hi Steve,j  C This sub-thread stated by talking about SMS and internet charges invD Europe.  I said that SMS here was cheap here because it was popular.  H Here's a quote from Swissinfo, the English-language news service here in Switzerland   ; "Twenty-one million short messages were sent in Switzerlandb7  during a 24-hour period through the three mobile phonem4  operators Swisscom, Orange and Sunrise. This is one<  million more text messages sent than during previous record>  highs. Swiss sent a total of 42 million messages over the two1  day (New Year's Eve and New Year's Day) period."e  3 And with only some minor deays at the peak periods.t  > That's from a country with only about 10 or 12 million people.     John McLeann   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:19:08 +0000  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.comP Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger: Message-ID: <OF6D61ED53.DEB3E0F7-ON00256B35.00540043@btyp>  @ Aren't you just basing this on your OWN set of values, expressed differently?  J YOUR hours pay is just about 10 times my daughters hours pay, so cheap for you, NOT for her.l   Steve Sr        E John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> on 01/01/2002 07:14:50 AMg    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:oG From:      John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>, 1 January 2002,a            7:14 a.m.  G Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if mergeri         Trevor Osatchuk wrote: >p ..E > Up here in Edmonton, AB Canada I am paying $39.00 cdn.(also cheaperaD > becuse I have cable from SHAW as well as highspeed)  This is aboutD > $25.50 U.S(today's exchange rate)  Less than half of what is beingE > paid in Europe.  I would say that I am getting a better deal.  If ItF > were paying $55 U.S.($80.00 cdn) I would seriously think about going- > back to dialup.(The horror, the horror.. :)  >t  > Everyone makes the same mistake when comparing prices in otherG countries, they use their set of values as a base.  You need to look at B the amount of work time it takes to buy something or the amount ofF disposable income you have (after tax and all normal living expenses).  G My USD 55/month for cable modem (unlimited) is less than 1 hour of work- (after tax).     John          F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message hasPG been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,e$ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have received K this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.o  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.   I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire,rD RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:33:19 +0100a1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>cP Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger5 Message-ID: <3C33283F.45DFEF76@swissonline.delete.ch>   ! Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:f > B > Aren't you just basing this on your OWN set of values, expressed > differently? > L > YOUR hours pay is just about 10 times my daughters hours pay, so cheap for > you, NOT for her.d    F Yes, that's true.  So to take Rob Young's figues for income per capitaF in Switzerland, we are probably looking at 2.5 to 3 hours work for the, "vaerage" person to pay the monthly charges.  H Admittedly I am also better off than on 56.6K modem.  My typical monthlyG phone bill was about 130 francs with internet acess taking maybe 100 of F that.  On cable modem I pay 80 Sfr per month unlimited and have access/ speeds about 30 times faster than dialup modem.    John    r  nG > John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> on 01/01/2002 07:14:50 AMm > " > To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > cc:gI > From:      John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>, 1 January 2002,. >            7:14 a.m. > I > Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if mergers >  ...e > @ > Everyone makes the same mistake when comparing prices in otherI > countries, they use their set of values as a base.  You need to look at D > the amount of work time it takes to buy something or the amount ofH > disposable income you have (after tax and all normal living expenses). > I > My USD 55/month for cable modem (unlimited) is less than 1 hour of worki > (after tax). >  > John   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 10:47:51 -0000l= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)m6 Message-ID: <20020102104751.22652.qmail@gacracker.org>  J On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:K >"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message90 >news:20020101213553.6053.qmail@gacracker.org...M >> On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:-F >> >"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in= >> >message news:20020101164555.32312.qmail@gacracker.org... e >> >M >> >> What has been done is a VAX emulator for PCs called CharonVAX. Once youeM >> >> have this up and running you can install VMS on your virtual VAX. ThereeL >> >> is talk of this being available through the hobbyist program again, soH >> >> it will be possible to run VMS on a PC for free when this happens. >> >>c >> >C >> >Apparently this already has happened, in the form of PicoVAX...e >> > >> >A >> >http://www.softresint.com/softresint/charon-vax/hobbyist.html  >>L >> I'd not seen any reference to that here before, and it certainly reads asJ >> a good way to get to play with the OS. Personally, I'm glad I spent theH >> money on buying an Alpha system to run VMS on, I just wish Compaq had% >> viewed such a setup the way I do.   >pK >If the marketeers and strategists at CPQ had a clue, what they would do issJ >offer a free restricted VMS license to developers. Develop for free, thenJ >pay for the license when you're ready to go commercial with an app you've' >developed with the restricted license.o > 5 >But that would make way too much sense, wouldn't it?   J It certainly would make more sense than a program where you can't even useK the system for your home business without paying a serious amount of money.i  I Of course, Compaq have proven to have no interest in the low-end for VMS.s     Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.netd   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 05:52:00 -0800 1 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) = Message-ID: <cf15391e.0201020552.5b226481@posting.google.com>-  h Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) wrote in message news:<1QZ6FklbbrHE@eisner.encompasserve.org>...K > I think "semantics similar to" is a far cry from "VAXcluster-compatible".v- > To me the latter implies "plug-compatible".   B I wasn't trying to suggest that the IBM code could be used as-is. D Rob's point was that a DLM implementation was one of the pieces of aA VMS clone that would be hard, if not impractical, to write.  I'veaF worked enough with the DLM that it doesn't seem so awfully hard to me,B and I was trying to point out that it had already been cloned.  InF fact, it's been done multiple times; if you recall, Oracle did a clone for OPS.  B If the semantics provided at the user level are the same, then theF internal implementation details shouldn't need to be plug-compatible. F As I see it, a VMS clone doesn't necessarily need to be able to join aB real VMS cluster, if it can cluster with nodes of its own kind andF provide users with the same capabilities.  But having identical systemE service interfaces (including $ENQ/$DEQ) would help a lot in allowingn" people to move VMS software to it.? ---------------------------------------------------------------r? Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | Consulting on: > Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Performance, I/O, Storage & SANs   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:23:33 +0100t& From: bds@rzg.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) + Message-ID: <a0v555INNsn0@subds.rzg.mpg.de>t  M In article <a0sq19$fp7@web.nmti.com>, Peter da Silva <peter@abbnm.com> wrote:m, >In article <a0qfcvINNgnq@subds.rzg.mpg.de>,( >Bruce Scott TOK <bds@rzg.mpg.de> wrote:H >> It is too much thankless work, and there is already Linux (hint: thatH >> constellation of opportunity was only available once; we're just damnG >> lucky it was taken advantage of by several someones as competent anda >> scrupulous as RMS and LT).p >g >Linus, yes. Salt of the earth.n > I >RMS, well, I think he takes too much credit for Linux. At the time LinuxEI >was developed, there were at least two other toolchains Linus might haveiH >used, not to mention the BSD source tree he could have (and would have,N >if it had been available a year earlier[1]). I think it was just steam-engineI >time, myself. The skills and knowledge needed to implement UNIX, and theeL >tool sets needed to support the work, had just become common enough that it  >would have happened regardless.  G If you only give credit for GNU, that is far and away more than enough.sG RMS inspired a lot of people with his philosophy and willingness to putaB his money where his mouth was, including people who were much lessG radical than he was.  I cannot describe the feeling when I read the GNU H manifesto (a few days after my first move to Sun OS) and realise that inE the ensuing years people had actually acted on it.  I know RMS is toolH much for most people, who are really fearful of a world which would workF so differently than our corporate one does, but it is clear to me thatG none of the Open Source movement as it exists now (note well: for me itbE is still the Free Software movement, in the spirit Stallman set it upeG in) would do so had RMS and GNU not taken that initial plunge.  I don'thE believe for a second we'd have Linux in any recognisable form had GNUe' not been there first for several years.e   >[1] SeeP >http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1992Dec20.115036.7197%40klaava.Helsinki.FI  H Interesting post, but serendipity like that is so legion no one can pickH one or two such cases out and say "the world would have been like that".  F Convince me that the free BSD movements pre-date GNU and I might alterG my stance.  But it is clear RMS's stance came out of that MIT milieu ofiE the late 60s/early 70s, and the attitudes of the computing world haveoF never been better than that.  Pity this stuff didn't simply sweep awayE all the arrogant clods of Silicone Valley, let alone the Redmond onese who came after.B  B GNU was around in embryonic form for a long time before Stallman's original announcement(s).m   -- G cu,  Bruce   3 drift wave turbulence:  http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/,   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:57:34 +0100,& From: bds@rzg.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)t+ Message-ID: <a0v74uINNstn@subds.rzg.mpg.de>i  > In article <iepY7.47245$Sj1.19720190@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>,3 Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:u >iK >"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message-1 >news:20020101164555.32312.qmail@gacracker.org...1 >7J >> What has been done is a VAX emulator for PCs called CharonVAX. Once youM >> have this up and running you can install VMS on your virtual VAX. There is0I >> talk of this being available through the hobbyist program again, so itb >willn= >> be possible to run VMS on a PC for free when this happens.I >> >h@ >Apparently this already has happened, in the form of PicoVAX... >s >n> >http://www.softresint.com/softresint/charon-vax/hobbyist.html    H Are these "VMS" for PC things running under Windows?  I would think that would defeat the purpose...   G If they run native upon boot, and then you install VMS on top of one of  them, then they are OK..   -- m cu,2 Bruce   3 drift wave turbulence:  http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/r   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 18:39:13 GMTH1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)eY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) , Message-ID: <a0vk4h$114a$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  + In article <a0v555INNsn0@subds.rzg.mpg.de>,l)  bds@rzg.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK) writes:  |> mI |>                                             but it is clear to me that0J |> none of the Open Source movement as it exists now (note well: for me itH |> is still the Free Software movement, in the spirit Stallman set it upJ |> in) would do so had RMS and GNU not taken that initial plunge.  I don'tH |> believe for a second we'd have Linux in any recognisable form had GNU* |> not been there first for several years.  G Ridiculous.  Ranks right up there with the claims of Ada advocates thatlG they invented "software re-usability".  We were writting and exchangingtF free software long before Stallman's tirade in 1985 (which contrary toH what he essouses was prompted by someone refusing to pay him for work heC put in the public domain that later turned out to have value).  The F process was formalized in the form of the newsgroup mod.sources (laterH comp.sources.unix) by 1983, 2 years before the GNU Manifesto.  And whileI we might have been lucky enough to have never seen Linux the BSD projectslG were already moving forward, held up only by a court case who's outcomev was already known.    I |> Convince me that the free BSD movements pre-date GNU and I might altera |> my stance.   ? A ridiculous request.  Of course they can't pre-date GNU.  Theya? didn't become possible (or necessary for that matter) until the  CSRG was terminated by UCB.p  eI |>            But it is clear RMS's stance came out of that MIT milieu ofyH |> the late 60s/early 70s, and the attitudes of the computing world haveI |> never been better than that.  Pity this stuff didn't simply sweep awaynH |> all the arrogant clods of Silicone Valley, let alone the Redmond ones |> who came after. |> aE |> GNU was around in embryonic form for a long time before Stallman'se |> original announcement(s).  F The idea of sharing code and writting programs for the fun of doing itH may have been around, but that had and still has nothing to do with RMS.   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:14:44 +0100i& From: bds@rzg.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) + Message-ID: <a0v4kkINNskh@subds.rzg.mpg.de>E  B In article <20011231184018.Y20270-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>,* Bill Gunshannon  <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:' >On 31 Dec 2001, Bruce Scott TOK wrote:n >eH >>                                                       we're just damnG >> lucky it was taken advantage of by several someones as competent and  >> scrupulous as RMS and LT).o >BF >Did I miss the smiley??  Those are hardly the same adjectives I would >use to describe those two.t  3 No smiley... you however must be taking the piss...D  H If there is any role model for me in the entire computing world, it must! be RMS.  All pluses, all minuses.m   -- o cu,  Bruceo  3 drift wave turbulence:  http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 17:46:42 GMTb4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)o0 Message-ID: <3C3346C6.1BB5D20E@blueyonder.co.uk>   "Doc.Cypher" wrote:     > I > What has been done is a VAX emulator for PCs called CharonVAX. Once you L > have this up and running you can install VMS on your virtual VAX. There isM > talk of this being available through the hobbyist program again, so it willh< > be possible to run VMS on a PC for free when this happens.  yI hmmm, I tried installing PicoVAX on my 98SE box and it complained becaused I wasn't running 2000.   -- h Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  u  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of -! my employers or service provider.1   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:13:00 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>O5 Subject: Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use.y; Message-ID: <01KCLFS5ESM48ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>f  N > >"If the marketeers and strategists at CPQ had a clue, what they would do isL > >offer a free restricted VMS license to developers. Develop for free, thenL > >pay for the license when you're ready to go commercial with an app you've) > >developed with the restricted license.l > F > I have downloaded a developers version of Oracle under exactly those > terms.  ) Does this exist for Oracle Rdb as well?      ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:32:07 +0100a9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>r5 Subject: Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use.U' Message-ID: <3C32EFB7.3A2B676A@aaa.com>    Yes. - Goto www.oracle.com. - Click the "Download" ocon.! - Select "Oracle Rdb" as Product.p - Enter your OTN user/password.d - Select Alpha or VAX kit.4 - Verify that you are not a relative of Bin Laden... - Download the kit.s  A Note, currently the kits are version 7.0.6. The latest-n-greatest ( kit is, as you surely know, version 7.1.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.k   Phillip Helbig wrote:e > H > > I have downloaded a developers version of Oracle under exactly those
 > > terms. > ) > Does this exist for Oracle Rdb as well?t   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:02:28 +0100 (MET)_9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> 5 Subject: Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use.t; Message-ID: <01KCLLNSKINC8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>f   > Yes. > - Goto www.oracle.com. > - Click the "Download" ocon.# > - Select "Oracle Rdb" as Product.a! > - Enter your OTN user/password.e  H Note that this is free and relatively quick to get if you don't already  have it.   > - Select Alpha or VAX kit.6 > - Verify that you are not a relative of Bin Laden... > - Download the kit.n  F It seems that the terms and conditions are similar to the developer's F programme (whatever it's called) from Compaq, i.e. you can develop an ? application to be sold etc but not use the stuff for YOUR OWN, l not-yet-profitable operation.W   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:11:45 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>-T Subject: Re:  VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a careermove ); Message-ID: <01KCLFKXNGOM8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>t  H > "Use of the Licensed Computer is ONLY FOR   NON-COMMERCIAL USES (e.g.,D > home use).  As such, you may not use the Licensed Computer for anyI > business purposes whatsoever, e.g., to develop applications for resale,R# > to do business accounting, etc." d > J > So if I develop an application that turns out to be viable as a product,E > then I am stuffed. If I want to use the box at work to run a simpleaI > database package then I am stuffed. This is not a problem with Linux or ! > the various BSD distributions. I > H > I  am sorry to complain. However, I believe that when a low profile osI > like VMS is being promoted, these barriers are likely to turn away mosto > interested people. n  D On the one hand, I can understand disallowing ALL commercial use of H something which is free.  OK, Linux and BSD have another model, but VMS I has to pay the guys who write the code which makes it a good OS.  On the  F other hand, there needs to be something between the pure hobbyist and F the Fortune 500 license.  For example, to quote my favourite example, @ with the hobbyist license one can't use EDT to write a novel if G publishing it generates profits.  On the other hand, before it is even iE written (i.e. in the development phase), it is too much to ask for a tI full license at full cost to be bought for that old VAX (which otherwise e" would have been destroyed anyway).  A For years, I've been suggesting for such situations, for startup hH companies etc something like "the license costs x% of your profit; if a I normal license is cheaper, you are of course free to buy one".  It would pH make everybody happier, would sell licenses which otherwise wouldn't be F sold, would not impact profits of existing licenses, would sell many,  many more VMS systems.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 10:54:44 -0500n+ From: Vincent Scarafino <vscarafi@ford.com>dH Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )( Message-ID: <3C332D44.1B84AA3E@ford.com>  C This isn't a port of Multics.  It is a hardened UNIX like operatingeF system with, among other things, mandatory access control added, using/ the same security model implemented by Multics.    israel r t wrote:b > G > On 01 Jan 2002 09:37:31 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>i > wrote:+ > >drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:X; > >> >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?o' > >> Surely it can't be that difficult.e > F > >Well, 'common' would not be code for 'industry standard' aka x86 PCH > >would it? Well, that has been done, and it was taken out the back and > >put out of its misery.nH > >Only a few of the chips are able to support VMS properly. The x86 andJ > >its smoking, bloated brethern can not. Funny enough, the PA-RISK would,  > >or in the 32 bit ones anyway. > E > Multics ( arguably a far more sophisticated and more secure os thanwG > VMS ) has been ported to the 86x platform. You can buy it as the STOPt? > operating system running on XTS-300s ( based on a Pentium 2 )o; > It has been evaluated as fulfilling B3 security criteria. A > It is interesting that you can run Unix and DOS programs on it.  > C > http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/epl/entries/CSC-EPL-92-003-D.htmla > E > And yes, it is available is likely to be around for the foreseeableo	 > future.a > H > "The SASS II contract provides the Defense Intelligence Community withE > a vehicle  for the acquisition of a broad range of state-of-the artoG > TEMPEST/Zone  products and associated services.  The NSA B3 certifiedeE > XTS-300 and Defense Information Infrastructure (DII) Guard are also  > available on this contract."   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:18:46 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>yH Subject: RE: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEFJDNAA.tom@kednos.com>1   > -----Original Message-----4 > From: Vincent Scarafino [mailto:vscarafi@ford.com]+ > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:55 AMr > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComhJ > Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) >  > E > This isn't a port of Multics.  It is a hardened UNIX like operatinghH > system with, among other things, mandatory access control added, using1 > the same security model implemented by Multics.b >a > israel r t wrote:l > >wI > > On 01 Jan 2002 09:37:31 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>r
 > > wrote:- > > >drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes: = > > >> >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?e) > > >> Surely it can't be that difficult.e > >nH > > >Well, 'common' would not be code for 'industry standard' aka x86 PCJ > > >would it? Well, that has been done, and it was taken out the back and > > >put out of its misery.oJ > > >Only a few of the chips are able to support VMS properly. The x86 andL > > >its smoking, bloated brethern can not. Funny enough, the PA-RISK would," > > >or in the 32 bit ones anyway. > >$G > > Multics ( arguably a far more sophisticated and more secure os than-I > > VMS ) has been ported to the 86x platform. You can buy it as the STOPsA > > operating system running on XTS-300s ( based on a Pentium 2 )a= > > It has been evaluated as fulfilling B3 security criteria.-C > > It is interesting that you can run Unix and DOS programs on it..  I I do not believe that this has anything to do with Multics, per se.  As ItH recall, this was a Wang developed solution.  When Honeywell disappeared, they4 transferred ownership of Multics to Univ of Calgary.   > ><E > > http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/epl/entries/CSC-EPL-92-003-D.html  > >eG > > And yes, it is available is likely to be around for the foreseeable  > > future.a > >nJ > > "The SASS II contract provides the Defense Intelligence Community withG > > a vehicle  for the acquisition of a broad range of state-of-the artoI > > TEMPEST/Zone  products and associated services.  The NSA B3 certifiedeG > > XTS-300 and Defense Information Infrastructure (DII) Guard are alsoe  > > available on this contract." >e   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 04:41:30 -0600t- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)d Subject: Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error 3 Message-ID: <Aq3i+oCAzYpr@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <nWtY7.16759$yC.1602142@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>, "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org> writes:t< > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message/ > news:+rjbybcmUhlm@eisner.encompasserve.org...oI >> In article <a0t0gf$451$1@news1.xs4all.nl>, William <wilby98@yahoo.com>e	 > writes:h5 >> > This thread was posted several months ago. I waso: >> > curious if VMS V7.3 has become available in any other6 >> > media besides CD. I may soon acquire a MicroVAXII- >> > and would like to install OpenVMS on it.o >>E >> As I recall, VMS is only going to be released on CD in the future.n >>: >> The CD-ROM drive I have on my MicroVAX II is the RRD50. > J > If you don't have a CD on the MVax II, you should be able to do an imageN > backup of the 7.3 CD to a hard disk, carry that over, and install from that.L > I just did that on a DS10 since I didn't want to watch the CD spinning for > longer than necessary.  < Will the contents of the 7.3 CD-ROM fit onto and RD54 disk ?   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:50:25 +0100 (MET)t9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>g8 Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ?; Message-ID: <01KCLH1YIOHE8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e   Just to make it clear:  " > The decline of VMS in education    This is the causek   > has a great deal to do with   / > the general decline of the operating system. y   This is the effect.a  H Of course, there might be some dependency in the other direction, but I H think the above is what was intended (I first parsed it in the opposite  sense, hence this note).  ) > Students become decision-makers and, iniF > my opinion, Compaq fail to see this. I'd like to see Compaq donatingH > hardware and software licenses to colleges and universities, but thereC > seems little hope of such radical marketing. After all, that is awI > long-term strategy which doesn't yield results in the current quarter. :   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 05:44:14 -0800S( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)8 Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ?= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201020544.49557e4e@posting.google.com>p  | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KCLH1YIOHE8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>... > Just to make it clear: > $ > > The decline of VMS in education  >  > This is the causea >   > > has a great deal to do with  >  a1 > > the general decline of the operating system. n >  > This is the effect.u > J > Of course, there might be some dependency in the other direction, but I J > think the above is what was intended (I first parsed it in the opposite  > sense, hence this note). > + > > Students become decision-makers and, inoH > > my opinion, Compaq fail to see this. I'd like to see Compaq donatingJ > > hardware and software licenses to colleges and universities, but thereE > > seems little hope of such radical marketing. After all, that is aoJ > > long-term strategy which doesn't yield results in the current quarter.  O they didn't do what IBM did, give the hardware and software to them at discount-I or for free to keep a base of talent out there to support their stuff ...n more stupidity!B   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 11:05:58 -0000t= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>aY Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common hare6 Message-ID: <20020102110558.23028.qmail@gacracker.org>  B On Wed, 02 Jan 2002, israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:D >One of the major advantages Unix has was that just about anyone whoD >does computer science is exposed to Unix ( and often only to Unix ) > A >However, I remember in the mid eighties, at the comp.sci dept myeF >account was on a unix clone ( Apollo Domain ) while at the biomedical- >engineering dept my account was on a VMS boxo > D >Continuing use of VMS by educational institutions ( for educationalG >activities and not for behind the scene accounting ) would have helpedf >to improve VMS's mindshare. >dD >Why did universities abandon VMS ? Was cost ( hardware and OS ) the> >primary factor ? How important was source code availability ?  G The decline of VMS in education has a great deal to do with the generaloK decline of the operating system. Students become decision-makers and, in myeJ opinion, Compaq fail to see this. I'd like to see Compaq donating hardwareJ and software licenses to colleges and universities, but there seems littleG hope of such radical marketing. After all, that is a long-term strategy 3 which doesn't yield results in the current quarter.a     Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:55:49 -00009 From: "Paul Cooke" <paul.cooke@baeSPAM_ME_NOTsystems.com> Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harh& Message-ID: <3c32f51f$1@pull.gecm.com>   Doc. Cypher wrote:  < >The decline of VMS in education has a great deal to do with= >the general decline of the operating system. Students becomee= >decision-makers and, in my opinion, Compaq fail to see this.h? >I'd like to see Compaq donating hardware and software licensese= >to colleges and universities, but there seems little hope of.@ >such radical marketing. After all, that is a long-term strategy4 >which doesn't yield results in the current quarter.  G so why are Microsoft being "punished" by "donating" lots of software toaD schools?? which costs them very little to actually make but they areG trumpeting the full retail price of the stuff as if it will really hurt@F them... There is something very wrong with this, the schools should beH given vouchers to spend as they wish on hardware and software. OtherwiseB other operating systems will not get a look in at all and yet moreH educators and students will become brainwashed to the "Microsoft way" of
 doing things.e   --
 Paul Cooke   I look at the time,  It says nine twenty-five and I thinkw Oh God, I'm still alivei   To Reply... delete SPAM_ME_NOT   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 12:05:39 -0000d= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>uY Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common har 6 Message-ID: <20020102120539.24209.qmail@gacracker.org>  G On Wed, 2 Jan 2002, "Paul Cooke" <paul.cooke@baeSPAM_ME_NOTsystems.com>  wrote: >Doc. Cypher wrote:p >w= >>The decline of VMS in education has a great deal to do with > >>the general decline of the operating system. Students become> >>decision-makers and, in my opinion, Compaq fail to see this.@ >>I'd like to see Compaq donating hardware and software licenses> >>to colleges and universities, but there seems little hope ofG >>such radical marketing. After all, that is a long-term strategy whicho0 >>doesn't yield results in the current quarter.  > H >so why are Microsoft being "punished" by "donating" lots of software toE >schools?? which costs them very little to actually make but they arefH >trumpeting the full retail price of the stuff as if it will really hurtG >them... There is something very wrong with this, the schools should beyI >given vouchers to spend as they wish on hardware and software. OtherwiserC >other operating systems will not get a look in at all and yet more-I >educators and students will become brainwashed to the "Microsoft way" ofl >doing things.  G Since you seem to imply that M$ in education is evil, I'd have to say I D agree. Getting people to accept from an early age that computers areJ unreliable and buggy should be unacceptable. VMS and UN*X users experienceC reliable and predictable system behaviour which should be the norm.e  C This decision to punish M$ by letting them get kids hooked on theireJ products fails completely to see what the anti-trust case was all about to start with.a     Doc. -- s6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.neta   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:34:38 GMTe= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)rY Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common har 0 Message-ID: <00A076E8.65EF9C40@SendSpamHere.ORG>  b In article <3c32f51f$1@pull.gecm.com>, "Paul Cooke" <paul.cooke@baeSPAM_ME_NOTsystems.com> writes: >Doc. Cypher wrote:e >.= >>The decline of VMS in education has a great deal to do with7> >>the general decline of the operating system. Students become> >>decision-makers and, in my opinion, Compaq fail to see this.@ >>I'd like to see Compaq donating hardware and software licenses> >>to colleges and universities, but there seems little hope ofA >>such radical marketing. After all, that is a long-term strategy25 >>which doesn't yield results in the current quarter.u >hH >so why are Microsoft being "punished" by "donating" lots of software toE >schools?? which costs them very little to actually make but they are H >trumpeting the full retail price of the stuff as if it will really hurtG >them... There is something very wrong with this, the schools should beiI >given vouchers to spend as they wish on hardware and software. OtherwiseeC >other operating systems will not get a look in at all and yet more I >educators and students will become brainwashed to the "Microsoft way" ofa >doing things.  F This is because Micro$soft has all of the business ethics of an inner-F city Heroin pusher.  Give the dope away free until they are hooked andD then line the coffers to overflow when they return for future fixes.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMv            rJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesc   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 02 Jan 02 10:36:19 GMTE From: jmfbahciv@aol.comsY Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common har + Message-ID: <a0uv94$61b$3@bob.news.rcn.net>   & In article <3c32f51f$1@pull.gecm.com>,=    "Paul Cooke" <paul.cooke@baeSPAM_ME_NOTsystems.com> wrote:c >Doc. Cypher wrote:e >I= >>The decline of VMS in education has a great deal to do withc> >>the general decline of the operating system. Students become> >>decision-makers and, in my opinion, Compaq fail to see this.@ >>I'd like to see Compaq donating hardware and software licenses> >>to colleges and universities, but there seems little hope ofA >>such radical marketing. After all, that is a long-term strategyL5 >>which doesn't yield results in the current quarter.u >nH >so why are Microsoft being "punished" by "donating" lots of software to >schools?? i  > I figured that the Misoft lawyers had a very hard time keeping- a straight face while that deal was approved.i    ? > ...which costs them very little to actually make but they aresH >trumpeting the full retail price of the stuff as if it will really hurt	 >them... n  ; I heard that the stuff these schools will be getting is oldl
 inventory.  C > ...There is something very wrong with this, the schools should betI >given vouchers to spend as they wish on hardware and software. Otherwise C >other operating systems will not get a look in at all and yet moreoI >educators and students will become brainwashed to the "Microsoft way" ofm >doing things.  ? Now do you see why the whole damn thing was a waste of time ando money?   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 02 Jan 02 10:39:36 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harc+ Message-ID: <a0uvf9$61b$4@bob.news.rcn.net>S  0 In article <00A076E8.65EF9C40@SendSpamHere.ORG>,A    system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote: 5 >In article <3c32f51f$1@pull.gecm.com>, "Paul Cooke" t. <paul.cooke@baeSPAM_ME_NOTsystems.com> writes: >>Doc. Cypher wrote: >>> >>>The decline of VMS in education has a great deal to do with? >>>the general decline of the operating system. Students becomes? >>>decision-makers and, in my opinion, Compaq fail to see this.sA >>>I'd like to see Compaq donating hardware and software licenses ? >>>to colleges and universities, but there seems little hope oflB >>>such radical marketing. After all, that is a long-term strategy6 >>>which doesn't yield results in the current quarter. >>I >>so why are Microsoft being "punished" by "donating" lots of software topF >>schools?? which costs them very little to actually make but they areI >>trumpeting the full retail price of the stuff as if it will really hurt H >>them... There is something very wrong with this, the schools should beJ >>given vouchers to spend as they wish on hardware and software. OtherwiseD >>other operating systems will not get a look in at all and yet moreJ >>educators and students will become brainwashed to the "Microsoft way" of >>doing things.r >aG >This is because Micro$soft has all of the business ethics of an inner-0G >city Heroin pusher.  Give the dope away free until they are hooked and E >then line the coffers to overflow when they return for future fixes.n >I? Nope.  It's going to be worse than that.  If the dependency was < only limited to future fixes, I wouldn't be as worried.  The; trend appears to be establishing a dependency for every ACKe7 over a comm line.  Think about that for at least a day.    /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.-   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Jan 2002 21:41:22 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common haro0 Message-ID: <87advwswe5.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  2 kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org (Charlie Ebert) writes:  L > In article <n0d43ug3tu6c6e7sndp92bi6surnmsmn4l@4ax.com>, israel r t wrote:  C > > One of the major advantages Unix has was that just about anyone D > > who does computer science is exposed to Unix ( and often only to
 > > Unix )  D > > However, I remember in the mid eighties, at the comp.sci dept my> > > account was on a unix clone ( Apollo Domain ) while at the; > > biomedical engineering dept my account was on a VMS boxa  ; > > Continuing use of VMS by educational institutions ( foreD > > educational activities and not for behind the scene accounting )1 > > would have helped to improve VMS's mindshare.t  C > > Why did universities abandon VMS ? Was cost ( hardware and OS ) E > > the primary factor ? How important was source code availability ?a  B > Simply put!  You had to pay big bucks for VMS and you didn't for > Unix.c  8 > If they GPL'd VMS we might be running that, who knows.  B Go back to the end of the 70s, to when VMS shipped. You payed AT&TE $200US, and you where set, for unis. A small extra chare to add extramD machine perhaps, can't remember. But unix was *not* the OS of choise: at all then! RT-11, RSTS, tops and bottoms, and a hoard of" others. Unix was just one of many.  E Now, unis got from DEC; the Vax, but NO edu discount, and they had to A pay full biscuit for the OS! Now for many, the OS was a $0 gratisgF throw in to the deal. That stopped. So instantly, depts looked at unixD plus a 780. The 780 *was* price compeditive with the others.  So you> got Wollongong uni porting unix to ... (help...) that was then@ reported to the 780. The BSD folk fell on the 780 like a pack ofB starving jackels, and soon BSD 4.0a..z march across the globe. AndE march they did. $200 vs DECs price for VMS made it a fish in a barrelTB day. Melbourne uni ordered 12 780s in one order. They ALL ran BSD.  D Then the folks who did EE and CS degrees went on to work for the newF startup. So where did they get a OS? Take BSD, write whatever you needD to get your MMU to look like a 780 pager, and you are (almost) done.  G There where now a steady stream of compiler and OS litterates, and they-4 ALL knew unix and C. A few knew of something else...  F By about 82/83, the slip with the venuses, the Apollo and soon Sun andC HP boxes, and the Jupiter cancelling, cut a big hole in DECs campusYF profile. The Vax was almost synonymous with 'slow' and the 10/20 folks: in some cases now hated DEC with a vengence. And still do.  D SO DEC did the hard yards and in effect GAVE Sun and the rest of theA unix hoard their entre into the real world. Witness that Apollo'se@ DomianOS was killed of by unix and X. (X also being a largly Vax effort in the beginning)  F After that, the Vax never regained its performance lead, the Alpha wasF the first system that did that, though Omega and N-Vax went close, andB where compeditive with their compeditors, but for lots, it was too@ late. They where solidly Sun or HP or SGI or IBM/RS shops and it6 needed a much bigger performance margin to shift them.  C The other factor, is that I don't theink the Vax suceeded where DECtD expected it too. If you look at early version, it is obvious that itE was intended as an RSX follow on, but the group who really took to iti4 where the RSTS people. Not sure about this though...  D But no, it was not quick, and it was not easy, but with a decade andD a half of steady work, DEC marketing and managment started their own0 hanging. And provided the rope into the bargain.   -- n< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:56:59 +0100i1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>oY Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harI5 Message-ID: <3C331FBB.D5794264@swissonline.delete.ch>    israel r t wrote:a > E > One of the major advantages Unix has was that just about anyone whoAE > does computer science is exposed to Unix ( and often only to Unix )i > B > However, I remember in the mid eighties, at the comp.sci dept myG > account was on a unix clone ( Apollo Domain ) while at the biomedical:. > engineering dept my account was on a VMS box > E > Continuing use of VMS by educational institutions ( for educational H > activities and not for behind the scene accounting ) would have helped > to improve VMS's mindshare.r > E > Why did universities abandon VMS ? Was cost ( hardware and OS ) theo? > primary factor ? How important was source code availability ?     E When I was at Melbourne University (late 70's into 1980) the computerhD science department actually wanted to teach students about operatingH systems, not how to use the latest whizz-bang software that they seem to do now.t  E At that time Unix was not only cheap to buy but Computer Science DeptnH could get hold of a substantial amount of Unix source code for their VaxH 780.  By replacing certain standard programs with purpose-written stuff,E it was possible to illustrate all kinds of things.  They could easilytH show the impact of changes to the process scheduling algorithm or create' compilers written for some pseudo-code.a  E I also remember (as a student) writing code with a special routine ineD it.  This routine would be activated at some random point in time byG some similar change to the standard software.  I can't remember whet we5C were supposed to learn from it, maybe something about the nature of] ASTs....  < Unix at that time was highly flexibly and very accessible toF universities, in part because it grew out of being an operating systemB for teaching.  VMS was always a robust, commercial-grade operating2 system, one for which tinkering was not an option.  G The result of all this was a bunch of graduates who were quite familiarfC with the warts-and-all characteristics of Unix.  Ultimately many oftE those graduates made recommendations for IT purchases and the rest isi history.     John McL   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 13:34:22 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>eY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaq.1 Message-ID: <SqIY7.220$5Y4.4513@news.cpqcorp.net>(   Ian King wrote in message ...f( ><roggblake@inamme.com> wrote in message2 >news:slrna34sn2.lsb.roggblake@unix3.netaxs.com...1 >> On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:49:59 +1100, israel r to <israelrt@optushome.com.au>o >wrote:oH >> >Of course, with the new recruits, one does not have the problem with; >> >mental atherosclerosis that affects so many over forty.  >>C >> There is a reason for the popular phrase "young and stupid." TheeI >> young lack the real-world experience needed to hold informed opinions,rE >> make valid decisions, and/or exercise proper judgement. A few willeC >> still succeed due to being in the right place at the right time,  >> but these are exceptions. >>G >> I have little or no use for the under-40 set and, when in a positionuA >> to hire, avoid employing them. The stability and experience ofd* >> older employees makes them a slam-dunk. >>    . I'll keep you in mind if/when I need a job ;-)  K >Ah, extremes.  As a member of the 'over 40' set, I don't think my thinkingeK >is crusted over; much of the technology I work with was not in existence acH >year ago, and one of the great joys of my job is that I must constantly; >learn new things in order to remain effective and current.  >   J >However, dismissing the 'under 40' set is too extreme.  I consider one of myI >colleagues, who is very bright and has done some truly excellent work; I F >hired him right out of college, and he has yet to reach even 30.  TheB >younger folks are often much more willing (and able!) to pull the8 >all-nighters and make possible the impossible schedule. >o    L Ayup.  As we age, most people find it harder to center their life around theK current project.   Pulling all nighters, and weeks on end where I literallyeI lived at the office - is no longer something I do on a whim (just because  the work is cool).  J The other thing about youth and inexperience is that they often don't knowJ that something is impossible, and so quite often pull off the impossible -! because they were willing to try.l  H >I find that my gray hairs balance their crisp ones quite well; in otherG >words, in managing these young folks, I contribute the experience theydJ >generally lack, and they power the project with that youthful enthusiasm. >?     Which is how it should work.  K >But I've found inflexibility and stodginess in 22 year olds, and boundless J >imagination in 50 year olds.  Evaluating someone based on a simple scalar is! >just not very effective.  -- Ianc >o >a   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 18:40:02 GMT.1 From: rsteiner@isis.visi.com (Richard C. Steiner)iY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqs3 Message-ID: <slrna36l02.7nl.rsteiner@isis.visi.com>i  8 In article <slrna34sn2.lsb.roggblake@unix3.netaxs.com>,  roggblake@inamme.com wrote:>  E >I have little or no use for the under-40 set and, when in a position ? >to hire, avoid employing them. The stability and experience ofi( >older employees makes them a slam-dunk.  ; Under 40?  Wow, that seems like an extreme range to reject.a  H I'm speaking as a UNIVAC/Unisys mainframe programmer and PC hobbyist whoJ is currently aged 39, so I may be somewhat biased about your chosen range  terminators <g>.  H Even some of us younguns know what it is to use a keypunch, count clocksI in the assembly routines we're trying to optimize, and write code that is D intended to be maintainable, not a demonstration of cute techniques.   -- aM  -Rich Steiner >>>---> http://www.visi.com/~rsteiner >>>---> Eden Prairie, MNa7                      Written online using slrn 0.9.5.4!U9                    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.i   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.004 ************************ed on theireJ products fails completely to s ;    ;    ;    ;    ;    ;    ;    ;    ;    	;    
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