/ INFO-VAX	Thu, 03 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 5       Contents: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for theJ Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the festive sea: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT consulta7 CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again. ; Re: CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again. ; Re: CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again.  Copying a file in C++, again. ! Re: Copying a file in C++, again. ! Re: Copying a file in C++, again. 6 decnet load/thruput test command (what was it called?): Re: decnet load/thruput test command (what was it called?): Re: decnet load/thruput test command (what was it called?) File sharing under VAXELN * Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. RE: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. RE: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses.0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 ITS_SSV.exe - Time Source software from Traconex4 Re: ITS_SSV.exe - Time Source software from Traconex* Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS?G Re: Proof!  I can secure UNIX faster than VMS! Was: Re: Congratulations  Re: S/MIME on OpenVMS?) Stateless vs Stateful App Server Concepts P Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise of comP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The    demise ofP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise of P Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise of com$ Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)$ Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)$ Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS) Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq/ Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs , Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"! Re: Too Few Servers opcom message C Re: VMS as a career move ( was HP admits it will kill VMS if merger G Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a career move ) moveM Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a careermove ) )) ? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )  Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error/ Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? / Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? / Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? P Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compaP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compaO Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compa P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaq Re: [Q]LAT QIO interface  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:36:27 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS 3 Message-ID: <gFx+h76RYLqW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <3C23A33C.2030805@qsl.network>, "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> writes: >  >  > I do not have that problem.  > : > OpenVMS Alpha 7.3, DECWindows Motif 1.2-6, Mozilla 0.96,/ > Decterm window telnet into Encompasserve.org.   F    Interesting.  Maybe it's the VMS or Motif version, I'm a few months    behind the times.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:28:09 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the 3 Message-ID: <qgYVHOcKwNIM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   p In article <3c25b9b2.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>, martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender) writes:0 > Adam Price (adam+usenet@pappnase.co.uk) wrote:. >> "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote:7 >> > Why don't you tell us why unix is better than VMS? = >> How many of those nice SC class supercomputers that Compaq % >> has been selling recently run VMS?  > J > So Unix is a better number cruncher than VMS. In what way is that a sign  > of a more advanced technology?  D    And Fortran-77 is a better number cruncher than C, or Fortran-95.;    Except you can be carefull and Fortran-95 might keep up.   D    So that means all the C programmers are using the wrong language?   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:29:34 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the 3 Message-ID: <j6EMo7Rx2Lz6@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <d7791aa1.0112230632.150f7af@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:  > L > and while we are analyzing why unix is better as an os than vms, let's notI > forget networking ... unix has what, tcp/ip?  that's it ... I submit to J > you that running Decnet over IP, the integrity of that network increasesL > substantially as for example decnet copies would become alot more reliableI > than ftp ... and I know from experience that is fact ... what is unixes  > answer to decnet?   C    You can get DECnet Phase IV for just about any box you can name, G    including every commercail UNIX I've ever heard of as well as Linux.    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:32:38 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the 3 Message-ID: <VIxE82UiZ6+S@eisner.encompasserve.org>   E In article <a073u8$ef3$3@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes: ? > In article <d7791aa1.0112230642.283c7922@posting.google.com>, . >    bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote:  , >>why does intel make their chips using vms?C >>why does the jstars plane flying around over afghanistan use vms? : >>I could go on with these questions, do you have answers? > ; > They use a timesharing operating system to do this stuff?  > I sure wouldn't.    D    Ah, timesharing again.  Unlike traditional UNIX, VMS was designed>    from the start to have real-time capabilities, and has beenE    successfully used in real-time for a great many years.  Won't keep A    up with a pure real-time system like VXworks, but doesn't fail (    at things I've seen UNIX flounder on.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:34:14 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the 3 Message-ID: <JkDlmboAGv4b@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <3C289D5F.6080106@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:  >> Adam Price wrote: > = >>>How many of those nice SC class supercomputers that Compaq % >>>has been selling recently run VMS?  > H > It would seem to me that users of supercomputers who are doing number H > crunching would like as little as possible between their calculations ? > and the CPU(s).  From this perspective a minimal OS would be  G > appriciated.  Note that such type of computing doesn't care too much  K > about user friendly interfaces, databases, security, features, and such.  E >   All that just takes away from the job at hand, crunching numbers.   >    I don't care what OS you run, nothing "gets between" an add-    instruction and the CPU that's running it.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:39:11 GMT & From: badbob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the 0 Message-ID: <3C337FB5.D7038E91@bellatlantic.net>   Bob Koehler wrote: > i > In article <d7791aa1.0112230632.150f7af@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:  > > N > > and while we are analyzing why unix is better as an os than vms, let's notK > > forget networking ... unix has what, tcp/ip?  that's it ... I submit to L > > you that running Decnet over IP, the integrity of that network increasesN > > substantially as for example decnet copies would become alot more reliableK > > than ftp ... and I know from experience that is fact ... what is unixes  > > answer to decnet?  > E >    You can get DECnet Phase IV for just about any box you can name, I >    including every commercail UNIX I've ever heard of as well as Linux. F Great Bob! Now you have gone and woken the ceculski bot.  I believe it is a  H PDP11, running rsts, tied to a pdp10 emulator running eliza.  Just wait, you F will see your words on decnet back at you with some lack of coherence!B Happy new year to you any how, even after waking the ceculski bot! badbob   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:18:58 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the V Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021815500.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  ! On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote: @ >    I don't care what OS you run, nothing "gets between" an add/ >    instruction and the CPU that's running it.   = Ah, the ignorance of youth.  He's never heard of an IBM 1620.   
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:21:28 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) S Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the festive sea 3 Message-ID: <LsoeofGb0W6e@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <HbZuv7$WAuzP@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:  >>   > B > 	Man... rough crowd for a Friday.  Very rough.  The part lost inE > 	the above is that Bart Z. mentioned PSECTS and PSECTS are the key. D > 	Trimming all that was trimmed loses all meaningful context.  Tell' > 	me how you write code to this PSECT:   - >         .PSECT  $CODE RD,NOWRT,EXE,SHR,PIC    C    You don't.  The hardware enforces NOWRT after the page faults in >    and the kernel sets the nowrite bit in the page protection.   > ;+   > ; Begin main routine.  > ;  > : > 	Conversely, tell me how you execute code in this PSECT: >  > ;+  $ > ; Declare data PSECT and objects.  > ;-  / >         .PSECT  $DATA RD,WRT,NOEXE,NOSHR,PIC    A    Trivial.  EXE/NOEXE is a linker hint for optimal image section G    arangement.  Even the Macro-32 compiler will complain if you violate C    NOEXE.  But once you get the code there, nothing in the hardware     enforces NOEXE.  F    Besides, most buffer overruns occur on the stack.  There's no PSECT?    for the stack, and no protection against running code on it.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:16:16 -0000; From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@computershare.co.uk> C Subject: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT B Message-ID: <1009999008.27050.0.nnrp-14.c1edba74@news.demon.co.uk>  I Actually I am not sure that /CRC buys you anything on compression either.2L The crc b;ock is done prior to compression, and hence can be compressed intoG the same physical "block" on the tape. If the block is bad your stuffede( anyway, if it is good you don't need it.    ; "Alan E. Feldman" <SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM> wrote in messager7 news:343f30ae.0201021012.63c67b8d@posting.google.com...o+ > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote in message / news:<s58nInp3LAv3@eisner.encompasserve.org>...s >a> > Thanks for your detailed answers! But I have more questions: >nG > Is there a downside to making tapes with /MEDIA=COMPACTION except foroH > the obvious fact that you must have a compaction-able drive to read it > back with? >,A > > In article <343f30ae.0112271609.3966cb80@posting.google.com>,n0 SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) writes: >+L > > > Is there any need to use redundancy groups in BACKUP save sets writtenL > > > to 4mm DAT tapes (DDS-2) on TLZ07-VA and TZL07-DA tape drives? Doesn'tI > > > the drive write its own redundant data to the tape for future error 2 > > > recovery purposes? And is /CRC still needed? > >)F > > Redundancy groups are arguably a waste of time.  If you get a tapeI > > read error on a modern tape drive, chances are that you won't be ablerF > > to read past the problem anyway.  The tape drive does use ECC, butD > > that's not the same thing as writing an XOR of each 10 blocks asH > > the 11th.  On the other hand, the overhead is only 10% (by default).I > > If you have room on your tape and time in your backup schedule, leavec > > it turned on.e >e- > How is ECC different from redundacy groups?e >nD > > /CRC is still needed.  And there are folks here who can give youK > > the horror stories.  All the drive-generated CRC can verify is that thelB > > data coming from the tape matches the data that was originallyB > > written to the tape.  It can't verify that the data that makesG > > it back to the operating system matches the original data that cameeI > > from the operating system.  Cables, controllers and device drivers ino > > the middle are the concern.c >fG > How is data integrity protected when copying files from disk to disk?EG > I mean the main cause for tape problems, I assume, would be a problemiF > with the tape (since writing to and reading from tape is more likelyH > to fail than the same with a disk, of course), which is why VMS BACKUPF > implements /GROUP and /CRC. But you mention here that using BACKUP'sC > CRC also verifies data integrity from source to tape to a restore F > destination, including cables, etc. Is there something similar goingH > on with disk-to-disk copying? I mean, why be more careful checking forG > problems due to bad cables, controllers, and device drivers for tapesiD > than for disks? Or are there already other data integrity measures > taken with writing to disk?  >tA > And when would you use COPY/WRITE_CHECK or COPY/READ_CHECK, for G > example? If VMS is being used for life support, I guess I'd want themeD > turned on. But is there any other purpose for them? I guess if you@ > have a suspicious disk. But these qualifiers are turned off by1 > default, implying they are not normally needed.s >eB > And how does block revectoring work? How does the controller, or& > whatever, know a block is going bad? >_* > > One final bit of advice.  Use /VERIFY. >e > I do.X >, > Thanks again.  >n > Disclaimer: JMHO > Alan E. Feldmant > afeldman ^&^&^ gfigroup.coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 03:36:27 -0300 + From: publicc <infopublicc@fullzero.com.ar>e Subject: consultae9 Message-ID: <iss.4f61.3c33fbeb.8eb78.1@mx2.west.saic.com>    Soluciones Informaticas:>     Realice la publicidad de su servicio o empresa por e-mail.3     base de datos actualizada a diciembre del 2001.v     Unica en Argentina.s      Oferta Unica:"    170.000 direcciones de mail de:;    Profesionales, Particulares y Empresas de toda Argentinav    Con los siguientes datos:  !    Nombre de la empresa o personae    Direccion de mail    Rubro o profesion    Localidad  L    Incluye 5 programas de envio masivo de mails, para realizar su publicidad    por mail.      Costo total: $100E    En capital Federal pago en efectivo o con cheque al recibir el cd.oG    En el interior del pais: pago contra reembolso por correo argentino.d  4    Adquiera la base por mail: ventas@publicc.zzn.com/    o telefonicamente al 4942-0093  / 1556919849V    5    Ademas contamos con las siguientes bases de datos:iK    De empresas (con direccion, telefono, cantidad de empleados, facturacioni    anual, etc).    De Fax: Para realizar su publicidad por faxO    Para telemarketing: Todos los rubros de empresas y servicios, profesionales,e    particulares, etc. /    Provinciales: 20.000 datos de cada provinciaq)    Consultenos por la base de su interes.a                  ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:53:48 GMTn= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)f@ Subject: CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again.0 Message-ID: <00A07736.835C9CEA@SendSpamHere.ORG>  _ In article <a0vros$1dt$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>, Eric Milkie <eam23@beethovenSPAM.com> writes:u >Here is a task:D >Copy a file in C++, with OpenVMS 7.3 and the latest version of the   >compiler, with the ACLs intact.L >Don't use the BACKUP api because BACKUP takes too many system resources to - >be efficient and bogs the whole system down. L >Don't use CONV$'s because they've been deprecated by Compaq, aren't thread-J >safe, and Compaq says they won't touch the code because it's too old and 
 >scary. :( >u
 >Now what? >p >M >-Eric  J When did Compaq state that they "won't touch the code because it's too old and scary?"   K I maintain a product which makes extensive use of the CONVSHR library func-pK tions.  In fact I'm readying a package (a couple of files and a bit of coderJ to replicate a problem) for Compaq CSC to report a problem I've found withJ CONVSHR.  If what you're saying is true, I've just spent the past few days pissing into the wind.  K I've seen numerous patches of late which contain fixes for CONVERT problems(L and related RMS and/or file system bugs.  Therefore, I find "won't touch the: code because it's too old and scary" to be a bit specious.  : Perhaps somebody from within engineering can/will comment.  u --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMd            sJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 18:17:01 -0500u* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>D Subject: Re: CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again.' Message-ID: <3C3394ED.50203@compaq.com>m  $ Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:  a > In article <a0vros$1dt$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>, Eric Milkie <eam23@beethovenSPAM.com> writes:. > K >>safe, and Compaq says they won't touch the code because it's too old and a >>scary. :(v >> >>Now what?3 >> >> >>-EricM >> > L > When did Compaq state that they "won't touch the code because it's too old > and scary?"  >      Yeah, who said that?  G Now, it isn't a secret that we don't have a dozen high-level engineers rG assigned solely to CONVSHR just waiting for bugs to arrive, but I'd be nA disappointed if somebody at Compaq officially said what you said.r     -- a John ReaganU' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadere   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:07:45 GMTn= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) D Subject: Re: CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again.0 Message-ID: <00A07751.9B84751C@SendSpamHere.ORG>  T In article <3C3394ED.50203@compaq.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes:% >Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:  > b >> In article <a0vros$1dt$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>, Eric Milkie <eam23@beethovenSPAM.com> writes: >> oL >>>safe, and Compaq says they won't touch the code because it's too old and  >>>scary. :( >>>v >>>Now what? >>>e >>>s >>>-Eric >>>  >> eM >> When did Compaq state that they "won't touch the code because it's too oldi >> and scary?"   >> T >O >t >Yeah, who said that?- >-H >Now, it isn't a secret that we don't have a dozen high-level engineers H >assigned solely to CONVSHR just waiting for bugs to arrive, but I'd be B >disappointed if somebody at Compaq officially said what you said. >s >e >--  >John Reagan( >Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader >m  G So John, you'll accept responsibility for the CONVSHR problem I'm going  to submit?  :) --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMs             J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes8   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 20:49:32 GMT:+ From: Eric Milkie <eam23@beethovenSPAM.com>a& Subject: Copying a file in C++, again.1 Message-ID: <a0vros$1dt$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>5   Here is a task:4C Copy a file in C++, with OpenVMS 7.3 and the latest version of the w compiler, with the ACLs intact.@K Don't use the BACKUP api because BACKUP takes too many system resources to W, be efficient and bogs the whole system down.K Don't use CONV$'s because they've been deprecated by Compaq, aren't thread-bI safe, and Compaq says they won't touch the code because it's too old and h	 scary. :(w  	 Now what?a     -Eric    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:15:43 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> * Subject: Re: Copying a file in C++, again./ Message-ID: <u37fmlnvrpb4d5@news.supernews.com>a  8 "Eric Milkie" <eam23@beethovenSPAM.com> wrote in message+ news:a0vros$1dt$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu...  > Here is a task:vD > Copy a file in C++, with OpenVMS 7.3 and the latest version of the! > compiler, with the ACLs intact.DL > Don't use the BACKUP api because BACKUP takes too many system resources to. > be efficient and bogs the whole system down.   That's a load of crap!  E > Don't use CONV$'s because they've been deprecated by Compaq, aren'tt thread- J > safe, and Compaq says they won't touch the code because it's too old and > scary. :(i  4 Another load of crap!  Who's telling you this stuff?   >  > Now what?  >f    I I would use the BACKUP API, it's made for copying files, CONV is made fork converting them.   >t > -Eric.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:41:44 -0500f- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i* Subject: Re: Copying a file in C++, again., Message-ID: <3C33E0E3.F78916A9@videotron.ca>   Eric Milkie wrote:M > Don't use CONV$'s because they've been deprecated by Compaq, aren't thread-RJ > safe, and Compaq says they won't touch the code because it's too old and > scary. :(@  F At what version did CONV$ become deprecated ?  Does this mean that theH callable equivalent of convert/reclaim no longer has a current supported equivalent ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 02:22:44 GMTm& From: Eric Taylor <et@rocketship1.com>? Subject: decnet load/thruput test command (what was it called?)l/ Message-ID: <3C33C054.E8025C21@rocketship1.com>?   Hi:   8 Some time ago I ran across a decnet command that let you9 send some data for N seconds to some target node and thenr9 it would give you a thruput measure. I remember you could > give it a record size etc. I think there was some sort of echo3 program on the remote end to send back the packets.i  ? I just can't recall what that command was. It may not have beenhB a decnet command, rather it might have been a separate executable.  2 If anyone remembers this one, I could sure use it.   thanks eric   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:45:39 +1030n% From: Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au>iC Subject: Re: decnet load/thruput test command (what was it called?)m* Message-ID: <3C33DAEB.2B60DC53@vsm.com.au>   Eric Taylor wrote: >  > Hi:H > : > Some time ago I ran across a decnet command that let you; > send some data for N seconds to some target node and then ; > it would give you a thruput measure. I remember you couldn@ > give it a record size etc. I think there was some sort of echo5 > program on the remote end to send back the packets.l > A > I just can't recall what that command was. It may not have beenoD > a decnet command, rather it might have been a separate executable. > 4 > If anyone remembers this one, I could sure use it.  % In DECnet-IV there's the LOOP commnd.n   Regards,           Jeremy Begge  =   +---------------------------------------------------------+ =   |            VSM Software Services Pty. Ltd.              |:=   |                 http://www.vsm.com.au/                  |:=   |       "OpenVMS Systems Management & Programming"        |e=   |---------------------------------------------------------|r=   | P.O.Box 402, Walkerville, |  E-Mail:  jeremy@vsm.com.au |g=   | South Australia 5081      |   Phone:  +61 8 83592155    | =   |---------------------------|  Mobile:  0414 422 947      |,=   |  A.C.N. 068 409 156       |     FAX:  +61 8 82231777    |h=   +---------------------------------------------------------+t   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 05:01:01 GMTa1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones) C Subject: Re: decnet load/thruput test command (what was it called?)u: Message-ID: <a10oid$mta$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  / In message <3C33C054.E8025C21@rocketship1.com>, *   Eric Taylor <et@rocketship1.com> writes:9 >Some time ago I ran across a decnet command that let youd: >send some data for N seconds to some target node and then: >it would give you a thruput measure. I remember you could? >give it a record size etc. I think there was some sort of echoo4 >program on the remote end to send back the packets.  B It sounds like you are thinking of the DECnet test sender/receiverJ utility, which was described in the "DECnet for OpenVMS Network Management Utilities" manual.   $ run sys$system:dtsend ; _Test: data/node=alph3b/size=576/seconds=20/speed=1000000000+ %NET-S-NORMAL, normal successful completionW   Test Parameters:    Test duration (sec)  20     Target node          "ALPH3B"!    Line speed (baud)    100000000d    Message size (bytes) 576U   Summary statistics: &    Total messages XMIT  291956  RECV 0!    Total bytes XMIT     168166656-     Messages per second  14597.80    Bytes per second     8408332v     Line thruput (baud)  67266656    %Line Utilization    67.267      < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929- Ohio State University        |      Internet:vL 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.v   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 13:17:06 -0800d0 From: pearsonb@windows-devel.com (Brian Pearson)" Subject: File sharing under VAXELN= Message-ID: <7042227b.0201021317.6fb2e61c@posting.google.com>l  E I have a fixed-length record file that acts as a circular log which I = cannot make shareable. I've tried every EPASCAL OPEN argumentTF combination in the book but once the file is opened its cannot be readD by another process. I suspect the problem might be the result of theF EPASCAL file handling (as opposed to the VMS-style file handling). Any4 ideas out there, to point me in the right direction.   Some background:  C - Using EPASCAL in VAXELN system on remotes (very remote, no EDEBUG 
 sessions).E - Log process creates and opens the fixed-length record file and doesr3 the logging. It keeps the file opened all the time.oC - Other process would like to open the file for readonly access but 2 return status is always 'locked by other process'.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 13:30:05 -0800n( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)3 Subject: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end! = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201021330.74771399@posting.google.com>:  I I hope intel realizes "VMS" is their ticket into the high end market, not0 windoze or HP (gag!) unix!   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:34:28 GMTi4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!a> Message-ID: <E1LY7.50162$Sj1.20539797@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message.7 news:d7791aa1.0201021330.74771399@posting.google.com...sK > I hope intel realizes "VMS" is their ticket into the high end market, noto > windoze or HP (gag!) unix!  G Not having gotten to where they are by being stupid, I presume Intel issG aware of the aforementioned fact. As a result of the events of June 25,eK 2001, Intel garnered three new enterprise OSes (well, maybe just two, given < Compaq's decision to OEM HP-UX merger or no merger) for IPF.  J Said acquisition should make Intel very happy. I doubt it makes Bill Gates very happy, though. ;-}e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 09:53:10 +1100s, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end! 8 Message-ID: <hl373uk0e9a2vr0tcqs0dhmtj6ps57g7sj@4ax.com>  @ On 2 Jan 2002 13:30:05 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote:  J >I hope intel realizes "VMS" is their ticket into the high end market, not >windoze or HP (gag!) unix!t  3 It would probably be a marketing disaster for them.y2 They would instantly be labelled  "old fashioned".  C Imagine the reaction if MS decided to abandon VB and C# and move to C Lisp ! Now you and I know that Common Lisp is actually very elegantuE and powerful. Unfortunately, the marketplace has a slightly differentt
 view of Lisp.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 00:36:34 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!f> Message-ID: <mINY7.50220$Sj1.20667004@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  9 "israel r t" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message 2 news:hl373uk0e9a2vr0tcqs0dhmtj6ps57g7sj@4ax.com...B > On 2 Jan 2002 13:30:05 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) > wrote: >aL > >I hope intel realizes "VMS" is their ticket into the high end market, not > >windoze or HP (gag!) unix!c > 5 > It would probably be a marketing disaster for them.i4 > They would instantly be labelled  "old fashioned". > E > Imagine the reaction if MS decided to abandon VB and C# and move to E > Lisp ! Now you and I know that Common Lisp is actually very elegantPG > and powerful. Unfortunately, the marketplace has a slightly different  > view of Lisp.e  < Easily remedied with marketeers who are proven CONS Artists.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:59:52 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>a7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!l/ Message-ID: <u37ep03vai8ld9@news.supernews.com>s  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message 7 news:d7791aa1.0201021330.74771399@posting.google.com...eK > I hope intel realizes "VMS" is their ticket into the high end market, noto > windoze or HP (gag!) unix!  I Intel has no interest in the high end.  They would hate to see a single 8uH CPU OpenVMS box replace 20 or 30 quad CPU Wintel boxes!  That's why they@ keep it a secret that they run all of their FABs on OpenVMS.  :)   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 18:11:15 -0800a( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!a= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201021811.4b89bfc7@posting.google.com>^  l israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in message news:<hl373uk0e9a2vr0tcqs0dhmtj6ps57g7sj@4ax.com>...B > On 2 Jan 2002 13:30:05 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) > wrote: > L > >I hope intel realizes "VMS" is their ticket into the high end market, not > >windoze or HP (gag!) unix!e > 5 > It would probably be a marketing disaster for them.v4 > They would instantly be labelled  "old fashioned". > E > Imagine the reaction if MS decided to abandon VB and C# and move totE > Lisp ! Now you and I know that Common Lisp is actually very elegant G > and powerful. Unfortunately, the marketplace has a slightly different  > view of Lisp.m  L well I would rather be old-fashioned and secure and up 24x7 than with the inI crowds "blue" screens and 80% of my time patching your 80 million windozeb+ boxes or conveluted, bug filled unix crowd!c   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 02:06:04 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!e> Message-ID: <g0PY7.50264$Sj1.20733010@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  0 "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote in message) news:u37ep03vai8ld9@news.supernews.com...x7 > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagee9 > news:d7791aa1.0201021330.74771399@posting.google.com...cI > > I hope intel realizes "VMS" is their ticket into the high end market,t nota > > windoze or HP (gag!) unix! >-K > Intel has no interest in the high end.  They would hate to see a single 8HJ > CPU OpenVMS box replace 20 or 30 quad CPU Wintel boxes!  That's why theyB > keep it a secret that they run all of their FABs on OpenVMS.  :) >H  L Based on their dabblings (and aspirations) in the HPTC realm, I suspect that+ Intel does in fact have high-end ambitions.:   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:56:03 -0500+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>e7 Subject: RE: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!sT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B43@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   John,e  . >>> Intel has no interest in the high end. <<<  B Somehow I doubt that .. They are smart enough to realize that whenG Customers need more individual compute power, if they can't get it fromnF their current supplier, Customers will switch HW platforms to one that will meet their requirements.o  D Good example is all the server consolidation work being done by manyG med-large companies today to drastically reduce their overall IT costs.CG These types of projects drive performance and availability requirementstH to much higher levels than what that Customer typically had in the past.   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultants Compaq Canada Corp.( Professional Servicesr Voice: 613-592-4660h Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----* From: John Vottero [mailto:John@mvpsi.com] Sent: January 2, 2002 9:00 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!     5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message 7 news:d7791aa1.0201021330.74771399@posting.google.com...iG > I hope intel realizes "VMS" is their ticket into the high end market,- not- > windoze or HP (gag!) unix!  G Intel has no interest in the high end.  They would hate to see a single$ 8tH CPU OpenVMS box replace 20 or 30 quad CPU Wintel boxes!  That's why they@ keep it a secret that they run all of their FABs on OpenVMS.  :)   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 03:22:23 GMTP4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!v> Message-ID: <P7QY7.50275$Sj1.20788642@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  6 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B43@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. .. John,v  . >>> Intel has no interest in the high end. <<<  B Somehow I doubt that .. They are smart enough to realize that whenG Customers need more individual compute power, if they can't get it fromaF their current supplier, Customers will switch HW platforms to one that will meet their requirements.0  D Good example is all the server consolidation work being done by manyG med-large companies today to drastically reduce their overall IT costs.gG These types of projects drive performance and availability requirements3H to much higher levels than what that Customer typically had in the past.  D It might be worth taking a look at a Compaq PPT entitled "SustainingL Leadership in High Performance Technical Computing: Compaq's New Roadmap forL HPTC." This was one of the June 25 deliverables, and has since been enhancedJ by Don Jenkins and his crew. The PPT makes it quite evident that Intel has high-end plans.   L One of the contributing factors to Compaq's IPF decision was the suitabilityB of the post-Marvel Fire/Ice/Wind fabric-and-blade platform for IPFH processors. The fact that IPF chips will be slower than equivalent AlphaK chips for several years doesn't matter all that much in the grand scheme ofiJ things: given a server architecture that can support hundreds and hundredsL of CPUs, a 20 percent IPF performance deficit can be remedied by throwing an> additional 20 percent worth of IPF processors into the system.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:48:52 +1100 - From: irt <israelrt@antispamoptushome.com.au>u7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!o8 Message-ID: <m3l73u02tm0jn95mseck5c4fd6b38as359@4ax.com>  4 On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 00:36:34 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:  F >> Imagine the reaction if MS decided to abandon VB and C# and move toF >> Lisp ! Now you and I know that Common Lisp is actually very elegantH >> and powerful. Unfortunately, the marketplace has a slightly different >> view of Lisp. >K= >Easily remedied with marketeers who are proven CONS Artists.e  " Only works if the customers CAR e.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 00:47:13 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!a, Message-ID: <3C33F037.868B8D00@videotron.ca>   Bob Ceculski wrote:0 > K > I hope intel realizes "VMS" is their ticket into the high end market, notf > windoze or HP (gag!) unix!    J Intel's business model is more compatible with Windows: high volume. It isK incompatible with the VMS business model of restricting sales to just a few  select customers.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 00:50:32 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>c7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!c, Message-ID: <3C33F0FE.D7D332FC@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:sL > Said acquisition should make Intel very happy. I doubt it makes Bill Gates > very happy, though. ;-}t  N Microsoft need not worry, VMS is in the hands of a very loyal terrier who will? publicly support Microsoft even when Microsoft is found guilty.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 06:24:02 GMTr* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!fB Message-ID: <6OSY7.496411$8q.41723936@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messagec8 news:P7QY7.50275$Sj1.20788642@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... > 8 > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in message >qL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B43@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. > .. > John,  >V0 > >>> Intel has no interest in the high end. <<< >bD > Somehow I doubt that .. They are smart enough to realize that whenI > Customers need more individual compute power, if they can't get it from2H > their current supplier, Customers will switch HW platforms to one that > will meet their requirements.l  H Which is why taking out the contract on Alpha was important to them:  noG IA64 member on any road map showed any indication of doing anything butc3 falling farther and farther behind Alpha over time.    >uF > Good example is all the server consolidation work being done by manyI > med-large companies today to drastically reduce their overall IT costs.eI > These types of projects drive performance and availability requirements J > to much higher levels than what that Customer typically had in the past.  J And also tend to benefit disproportionally from per-processor performance,G in that the fewer processors you need to support a given load, the lessgE expensive the system is.  Another Alpha strength and Itanic weakness.w   >aF > It might be worth taking a look at a Compaq PPT entitled "SustainingJ > Leadership in High Performance Technical Computing: Compaq's New Roadmap foryE > HPTC." This was one of the June 25 deliverables, and has since beenw enhancedL > by Don Jenkins and his crew. The PPT makes it quite evident that Intel has > high-end plans.   D Too bad it doesn't have a decent processor to use to implement them.   > B > One of the contributing factors to Compaq's IPF decision was the suitabilitydD > of the post-Marvel Fire/Ice/Wind fabric-and-blade platform for IPFJ > processors. The fact that IPF chips will be slower than equivalent AlphaJ > chips for several years doesn't matter all that much in the grand scheme ofL > things: given a server architecture that can support hundreds and hundredsK > of CPUs, a 20 percent IPF performance deficit can be remedied by throwing  an@ > additional 20 percent worth of IPF processors into the system.  K Indeed.  But since the actual IPF performance deficit is more like a factoreK of 2 (today, with Merced and EV68, and next year, with McKinley and EV7; ifhG EV8 had survived, it would have become a factor of closer to 4), 'just'4B doubling or quadrupling the number of processors to attain a given, performance level is a bit more problematic.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Jan 2002 14:02:34 -0500- From: Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com>t: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <mddlmfg7f05.fsf@panix2.panix.com>  - Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes:n   > Rich Alderson wrote:  > >> We do *most* of our programming for the Toad-1 in Macro-10.   > Macros don't count. :)* > And no I don't want a macro that counts.  N "Macro-10" is the name of the assembler language.  Yes, it has very good macroK capabilities, but nearly every line of code is a representation of a singlesB machine instruction.  That is, we write in assembler all the time.  # But I suspect that you knew that...e   --  N Rich Alderson                                          alderson+news@panix.comL   "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endless   ------------------------------    Date: 02 Jan 2002 14:08:41 -0500- From: Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <mdditak7epy.fsf@panix2.panix.com>  * peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:  = > You might as well complain that Lisp doesn't have a "goto".6  L Well, of course, to be historically pedantic, LISP 1.5 *does* have a "goto",O the special form GO available only within the PROG construct (the way you write  Fortran programs in Lisp).   --  N Rich Alderson                                          alderson+news@panix.comL   "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endless   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:22:59 +0000, From: hmv@port.ac.uk (Mike Meredith at home): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC( Message-ID: <36jv0a.ece2.ln@lucifer-ec0>  1 In article <3C323135.6834BE8F@trailing-edge.com>,2. 	Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:C > That said, the trend is very much away from this "pure" model andmB > into shells where more and more functionality is rolled into the@ > shell itself.  Bash has a heck of a lot more builtins than ksh > or Bourne shell   A I'm not sure about bash because it isn't something I use, but Zsh @ has reached the point where if you turn on all the twiddly bits,. it isn't pleasant to use on a smaller machine.  > Using all those internals in bash can lead to the problem that? you end up with scripts that won't work on other shells. I tend-A to restrict myself to sh or ksh limitations, or I switch to Perl.   . > (in many cases it cuts down process creationD > by 90%, especially where the original had a lot of calls to things  @ If it's a 'run once' type of thing, that doesn't matter; if it'sA a "waiting for this to stop" sort of things it doesn't matter. Ifc@ you really need performance you should switch to something else.  C > I'm not so sure if this trend is a result of creaping featuritis,VG > a real need to minimize process creation for efficiency, portability,uD > or something else.  It's probably a mix of a bunch of factors, but > it is occuring.r  = It's been happening ever since Unix grew up enough to supportl@ larger scripting languages, so larger machines could well be the biggest factor.e  E > So far, Perl seems to have simply swallowed all the contenders, and B > now I see folks writing real object-oriented applications in it!  ; Python. It's not as big as Perl, but it's not small either.o   ------------------------------  " Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:07:30 GMT3 From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US>o: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <u3d1oecu5.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>  C >>>>> On 02 Jan 2002 14:08:41 -0500, Rich Alderson ("Rich") writes: 1  Rich> peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:t?  >> You might as well complain that Lisp doesn't have a "goto".-  D  Rich> Well, of course, to be historically pedantic, LISP 1.5 *does*C  Rich> have a "goto", the special form GO available only within theyC  Rich> PROG construct (the way you write Fortran programs in Lisp).0  $ Modern Lisps still have GO and PROG.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:03:14 +0000 % From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>t: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C337592.EE795DEC@iee.org>    Bill Todd wrote:K > blaming the file system for the lack of such optimizations is rather likedE > blaming TECO for its performance short-comings as a general-purposem > programming language.   ! TECO can quite happily calculate , the decimal expansion of Pi to" as many places as you want (within% reason ... if you have the patience).0   How much more general purposeT can you possibly want :-)n   Antonio.   -- u   ---------------l- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:11:45 -0600s- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <OSeRlWp5eZgr@eisner.encompasserve.org>)  Y In article <3C31BEE0.4FEE4F6F@bellatlantic.net>, badbob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> writes:   B > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the proper > word here...  A    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before BLISS-36).g   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:14:40 -0600i- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)u: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <DNLEsD5o4FrC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <3C33386C.4E7571EB@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote: >> rm >> In article <3C2E9074.4EBD2C31@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes:7 >> >K >> > That's what the "#!/bin/sh" is for in the beginning of a shell script.e1 >> > I can make sure that I have the right shell.o >> cI >>    Except that most of us would expect /bin/sh to be Bourne shell, andk >>    sometimes it's not.g > J > True, especially w/Linux - but I stay away from systems where /bin/sh is > not the Bourne shell :)e  F    Then you're missing Mac OS X, the best GUI-over-UNIX I've yet seen.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:18:41 GMT-1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C3379D8.F3FD5A32@fsi.net>D   Peter da Silva wrote:8 > ) > In article <3C3224FA.D88BF6E4@fsi.net>,l2 > David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > >If the point is notH > >crystal-clear to you by now, then it will take someone closer to your@ > >own paradigm to do the job. Obviously, that person is not me. > G > The problem is, you're trying to talk authoritatively about somethingw& > that you seem to be unable to model.  F Actually, I can model it quite well - just not to *YOUR* satisfaction.  # > If you can't make the leap to theoI > UNIX model you will simply never know why someone can prefer it to DCL.c  B I not only can, but *DO* understand why someone would prefer shell> programming to DCL - for those tasks which are doable on UN*X.  2 As someone in another thread mentioned, you cannot   # mv *.a *.b  G ...in UN*X. On VMS, this technique can be used to reset version numberscG back to a sequence beinning with 1 (the whole version number concept isa8 likewise foreign to UN*X), as well as for other reasons.  H > For example, the point you are trying to make is simply meaningless on > UNIX.d  6 Well, no it isn't. It is both intrinsic and important.  8 > You do not write scripts in the shell by itself, ever.  C Well, actually yes you do. "ls" cannot execute an "if" construct ortE setup a pipeline anymore than the shell can return the creation date,tH revision date or other statistic about a file without assistance from an external command program.   F Other externals may execute scripts as well; however, the shell scriptE is "the thingama-bob that does the job", and yes, it *IS* executed by & the shell, and only the shell. Period.   > It doesn'tJ > make sense to try and compare the shell without any external programs to > DCL or Perl or anything else.h  D Well actually yes it does. In fact, you can liken it to invoking VMS@ system services or RTL ropuines in any of your choice of 2/3GLs.  / > A UNIX shell script always uses a combinationc. > of the shell and the filters that it runs...  ) Well, at least on that much we can agree.A  L > Would you complain because the PDP-11 doesn't have a MID$ instruction? Oh,J > sure, you can call EN EXTERNAL SUBROUTINE to get a MID$, but wouldn't it7 > be better to program in BASIC where MID$ is built in?u  E Well, in the first place, MID$ would create a rather long sequence oftC instructions or a call to the associated STR$ routine (on VMS). So,nA comparing a "macro" to an "atomic" instruction is hardly logical.e  M > That sort of argument is obviously nonsense. Well, that's the case with theC > shell as well.  2 Well, the example is nonsense. The concept is not.  D I've seen commonly in other VMS 3GLs use of BAS$ RTL modules in such languages as COBOL, DIBOL, etc.e  H You may want to broaden your EDP horizons a bit. Your paradigm indicates somewhat limited experience.   -- : David J. Dachterac dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/o   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 03:07:14 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <877kr0r2ql.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:    >  Michael Zarlenga wrote:  B > > This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix muchC > > easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to say'A > > that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.n  G >    So how do I do the following in you favorite shell (yes, I do know2 >    two painfull answers)?o   >    rename *.a *.bn  G And before you answer, read the seminal Rename Paper. Start with how doD you F     rename a b where a and b are arbitary paths. IE, either may or may; not exist, may or may not be on the same drive/partition...B   -- F< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.b@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 22:08:43 GMT ( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a100db$22ji$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  . In article <mdditak7epy.fsf@panix2.panix.com>,/ Rich Alderson  <alderson+news@panix.com> wrote: M >Well, of course, to be historically pedantic, LISP 1.5 *does* have a "goto",uP >the special form GO available only within the PROG construct (the way you write >Fortran programs in Lisp).t  @ I guess that was the first step on the Dark Path to Common Lisp.   -- s@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)l   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 22:58:02 GMTa( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a1039q$2422$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  ' In article <3C3379D8.F3FD5A32@fsi.net>,n0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:G >Actually, I can model it quite well - just not to *YOUR* satisfaction.F  D I'm sorry, but the bit you keep harping on is completely and utterlyD central to the whole system. There's no point even having a separate) shell if you isolate it from the filters.y  
 ># mv *.a *.bh  L The canonical "this is the one thing you can do in VMS you can't do in UNIX" example shows up, at last.  G Not only can you do that in UNIX, you can do it a dozen different ways.   - ls *.a | sed 's/\(.*\)\.a/mv & \1.b/' | sh -x>  6 for i in *.a; do mv $i "`expr $i : '\(.*\)\.a'`"; done  C It's about the only thing that you can do in DCL that requires lesstF typing than the shell, and there are about a dozen utilities availableG to "fix" this "problem"... and I've never seen anyone ever use it after- verifying it works.-  M >> Would you complain because the PDP-11 doesn't have a MID$ instruction? Oh,eK >> sure, you can call EN EXTERNAL SUBROUTINE to get a MID$, but wouldn't it-8 >> be better to program in BASIC where MID$ is built in?  F >Well, in the first place, MID$ would create a rather long sequence ofE >instructions or a call to the associated STR$ routine (on VMS).  So, B >comparing a "macro" to an "atomic" instruction is hardly logical.  ? So why do you see that this kind of comparison is illogical andc) meaningless in one case, but not another?-  E >I've seen commonly in other VMS 3GLs use of BAS$ RTL modules in sucho  >languages as COBOL, DIBOL, etc.  H But (to paraphrase you) that's a RTL module, not the instruction set! WeH need to compare BASIC and the PDP-11 instruction set on the basis of itsI inherent capabilities, and the PDP-11 instruction set doesn't have a MID$ 6 instruction! What happens if your RTL isn't installed?   -- e@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:06:57 -0000 / From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>@: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u374kh30tbqc70@corp.supernews.com>5  = In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote: A :> This 15+yr VMS user who also has 2+yrs of Unix finds Unix muchAB :> easier to use for most of the tasks I do.  I really hate to say@ :> that, but its scripting languages are light years beyond DCL.  G :    So how do I do the following in you favorite shell (yes, I do knowr :    two painfull answers)?e   :    rename *.a *.be   for f in *.a do     mv $f ${f%a}bu done     Do you consider that painful?h   -- i -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:25:10 GMT  From: berdpee@ami.com.au: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <3c339501.2885067@news.ami.com.au>  E Macro-6/Macro-10 is a well designed assembly language which is a pureoB delight for the programmer. My venerable friend (now deceased) wasB able to write a cross assembler for the Motorola 14500 one bit CPU= using Macro-10. I am not aware of the OPDEF facility in otherhE assemblers. We don't see programmers with such talent these days evenrE if they exist. He actually got the task finished and working completeoF with an extensive user manual. I surmise I still have a source listing for it in my printout folders.      F On 02 Jan 2002 14:02:34 -0500, Rich Alderson <alderson+news@panix.com> wrote:  . >Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes: >m >> Rich Alderson wrote:m > ? >>> We do *most* of our programming for the Toad-1 in Macro-10.s >e >> Macros don't count. :)J+ >> And no I don't want a macro that counts.v >nO >"Macro-10" is the name of the assembler language.  Yes, it has very good macrorL >capabilities, but nearly every line of code is a representation of a singleC >machine instruction.  That is, we write in assembler all the time.i >f$ >But I suspect that you knew that... >s >-- O >Rich Alderson                                          alderson+news@panix.com M >  "You get what anybody gets.  You get a lifetime."  --Death, of the Endlesse   aeolus   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:29:19 GMTP From: berdpee@ami.com.au: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <3c339704.3399908@news.ami.com.au>   GOOD OLD LISP!!!  A Twas a way of systematizing the mind. My only lisp program drew acD NACA0015 wing profile for Autocad R9 when I was attending an Autocad= course at Tech College. LOTS of Small Irritating Parenthesis.b Nevertheless it was FUN!!b    C On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 17:44:35 GMT, jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com> wrote:e  G >On 29 Dec 2001 18:54:46 GMT, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:0 >4) >>In article <3C2E03B6.C0D6F6A0@fsi.net>,p2 >>David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:0 >>>"find" is an external program, not the shell. >> >>So?. >>H >>The whole programming model the shell uses is gluing together externalI >>programs. It's a dataflow engine, not a traditional procedural languagea >>like DCL.u >>= >>You might as well complain that Lisp doesn't have a "goto".  >  >e( >Hey, let's start the old 'setq' debate.2 >Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq. >(get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)   aeolus   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:50:54 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021529210.18522-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  ! On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:nG >    So how do I do the following in you favorite shell (yes, I do knowj >    two painfull answers)?o >    rename *.a *.bD  J This can be done with a small shell script, but yes, it is more complex on+ UNIX than it is on DOS, VMS, or TOPS-10/20.p  E On the other hand, unlike DOS, VMS, or TOPS-10/20, there's hardly anyaB reason to do it on UNIX.  UNIX filenames are not restricted to theC familiar file.extension form; the "." character is just an ordinaryrE character in a file name.  Equally important, subdirectories are much 0 easier to use in UNIX than in VMS or TOPS-10/20.  H Simply put, there are other (and better) ways on UNIX to accomplish whatH is intended by that rename.  The only people who ever ask how to do thatG type of rename are people who come from environments which use a strictwH file.extension naming and haven't yet comprehended that there are betterI ways to do what the underlying intention.  Typically, even after they areoE provided with a prepackaged script to do that rename, they end up notoE using it since it turns out that doing things the UNIX way is so mucho easier.h  I You can see the same difference with DOS vs. NT.  Even though the commandlC interface is similar and NT has the DOS/VMS/TOPS-10/TOPS-20 type ofsD rename, people hardly ever use it since NT filenames work like UNIX.  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 00:49:02 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECB Message-ID: <2UNY7.493305$8q.41449551@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  0 "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> wrote in message! news:3C337592.EE795DEC@iee.org...  > Bill Todd wrote:H > > blaming the file system for the lack of such optimizations is rather likeG > > blaming TECO for its performance short-comings as a general-purposee > > programming language.o >n" > TECO can quite happily calculate  > the decimal expansion of Pi to$ > as many places as you want (within' > reason ... if you have the patience).s >e > How much more general purposeu > can you possibly want :-)s  B If you'll re-examine my statement, you'll note that it referred to9 *performance* short-comings, not lack of general utility.h   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:53:48 GMTi+ From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com>': Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <3C33B0EE.E815488E@ins-msi.com>t   Mark Crispin wrote:c > # > On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote: I > ?    So how do I do the following in you favorite shell (yes, I do know. > ?    two painfull answers)?1 > ?    rename *.a *.be > L > This can be done with a small shell script, but yes, it is more complex on- > UNIX than it is on DOS, VMS, or TOPS-10/20.  > G > On the other hand, unlike DOS, VMS, or TOPS-10/20, there's hardly anydD > reason to do it on UNIX.  UNIX filenames are not restricted to theE > familiar file.extension form; the "." character is just an ordinary)G > character in a file name.  Equally important, subdirectories are much-2 > easier to use in UNIX than in VMS or TOPS-10/20.   Don't know TOPS-!0/20... but  	    ./foo/:	    [.foo]       /foo/bar/    [foo.bar]  
    ../foo/
    [-.foo]      [...] no equivalent in unix  ! Doesn't look "much easier" to me.   C Even in the case where the shell preprocesses the file name so thatp      cd  somedir  G works without the delimiters, a user's smart SET DEFAULT processor willpE likewise validate the target file name as actually being a directory,  SOMEDIR.DIR, and allow  
    sd somedirp   to work as expected.  	 Of courseu  
    ls somediro   is 3 characters less than       ls [.somedir]  - I guess progress is made by lazy people.  8-).   > J > Simply put, there are other (and better) ways on UNIX to accomplish whatJ > is intended by that rename.  The only people who ever ask how to do thatI > type of rename are people who come from environments which use a strictgJ > file.extension naming and haven't yet comprehended that there are betterK > ways to do what the underlying intention.  Typically, even after they areiG > provided with a prepackaged script to do that rename, they end up not(G > using it since it turns out that doing things the UNIX way is so much 	 > easier.4 > K > You can see the same difference with DOS vs. NT.  Even though the command E > interface is similar and NT has the DOS/VMS/TOPS-10/TOPS-20 type ofcF > rename, people hardly ever use it since NT filenames work like UNIX. >  > -- Mark -- > ! > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc H > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   Jeff n8wxs@arrl.net   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:22:32 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C33B303.C1336993@fsi.net>n   Peter da Silva wrote:n > [snip]G > But (to paraphrase you) that's a RTL module, not the instruction set!o  > EXACTLY! It's a SOFTware thing, not HARDware! *VERY* importantD distinction. The same HARDware stuff will be found on every PDP CPU,7 every VAX CPU, every Alpha CPU, every IPF CPU, etc. ...8  D If you're confused here also, you may need to do computer school all over again.    > WeJ > need to compare BASIC and the PDP-11 instruction set on the basis of itsK > inherent capabilities, and the PDP-11 instruction set doesn't have a MID$. > instruction! .  E MID$() is a BASIC built-in function. This is a far-cry from a machineyG instruction. BASIC is a 3GL, not a 2GL. The whole comparison is totally . nonsensical and irrelevant to this discussion.  G In an older BASIC (BASIC-Plus), MID$() could even be stated on the lefttF of an "=" (as the target of an assignment) to replace a string segmentH in place. As it happens, (on VMS) there's a STR$ routine that performs a similar function (I believe).n  + > What happens if your RTL isn't installed?   G BASRTL is distributed with OpenVMS, not with the language (although themG DEC BASIC distro. may contain an updated version). If it weren't, BASICn> routines and programs would not be usable from one system (theH developer's) to another (the end-user's). Same for DIBOL (DBLRTL), COBOL, (COBRTL), and so on. They all come with VMS.  H Another of the VMS things you don't typically find in the UN*X world (or WhineBloze, DOS, etc.).t   -- e David J. Dachteras dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:14:27 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>a: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  ! On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote: D > > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the proper > > word here...C >    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before BLISS-36).   F Only people who can't program in any language would be so stupid as to+ prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language.e  J BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly language.  But on the PDP-10, BLISS was a complete waste.   
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrclF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:50:01 -0400p+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <3C338089.1C12E6FA@trailing-edge.com>r   Mark Crispin wrote:iJ > Simply put, there are other (and better) ways on UNIX to accomplish whatJ > is intended by that rename.  The only people who ever ask how to do thatI > type of rename are people who come from environments which use a strict J > file.extension naming and haven't yet comprehended that there are better+ > ways to do what the underlying intention.n  > Unfortunately, while the "pure core" of Unix doesn't care whatB an extension is, most all the tools - even really basic tools like the C compiler - do care:    $ cat > hello.c # main() { printf("Hello world\n"); }t $ cc -o hello hello.c 	 $ ./hello  Hello world   $ mv hello.c hello.somethingelse! $ cc -o hello hello.somethingelsenH /usr/bin/ld:hello.somethingelse: file format not recognized; treating as linkert . /usr/bin/ld:hello.somethingelse:1: parse error# collect2: ld returned 1 exit statusj  = Yes, I know that there is a flag that tells the C compiler toD> treat the filename as a C source code file no matter what it'sA extension.  And that it's not really a flag to the C compiler buts< to the compiler/loader driver.  But my point remains: a Unix@ programmer learns on day one that file extensions *do* matter to$ all the most interesting Unix tools.   Tim.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 00:24:52 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>t: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <4QRY7.606$Pe5.142529@news1.iquest.net>h  d "Tim Shoppa" <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message news:3C338089.1C12E6FA@trailing-edge.com... > Mark Crispin wrote:eL > > Simply put, there are other (and better) ways on UNIX to accomplish whatL > > is intended by that rename.  The only people who ever ask how to do thatK > > type of rename are people who come from environments which use a strictlL > > file.extension naming and haven't yet comprehended that there are better- > > ways to do what the underlying intention.- > @ > Unfortunately, while the "pure core" of Unix doesn't care whatD > an extension is, most all the tools - even really basic tools like > the C compiler - do care:i >  > $ cat > hello.co% > main() { printf("Hello world\n"); }2 > $ cc -o hello hello.co > $ ./hellon
 > Hello worldw" > $ mv hello.c hello.somethingelse# > $ cc -o hello hello.somethingelsevJ > /usr/bin/ld:hello.somethingelse: file format not recognized; treating as	 > linkertu0 > /usr/bin/ld:hello.somethingelse:1: parse error% > collect2: ld returned 1 exit statust > ? > Yes, I know that there is a flag that tells the C compiler to @ > treat the filename as a C source code file no matter what it'sC > extension.  And that it's not really a flag to the C compiler but-> > to the compiler/loader driver.  But my point remains: a UnixB > programmer learns on day one that file extensions *do* matter to& > all the most interesting Unix tools. > J But in UNIX, the '.c' isn't really a filename extension like on DEC boxes,A but is part of a naming convention.   On UNIX boxes, for example,n% you can have a 'C' program 'foo.x.c'.R   John   ------------------------------  " Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 06:29:53 GMT3 From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US>n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <uk7v0c5ge.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>  A I miss file version numbers (ITS, TOPS-20, *VMS*, LispM) on Unix.h< (Source control systems like CVS serve a different purpose.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 10:55:31 -0800h% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>i Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.o) Message-ID: <3C3357A3.D4653F08@rdrop.com>a   Jan-Erik Svderholm wrote:  >  > Hi.a4 > I just ordered and got new licenses from Montagar.< > But, they says "/TERMINATION=29-MAY-2002" on all licenses.$ > This is the layered prod licenses.  F You're not close enough to the expiration of your existing licenses to
 get new ones.c  E Mine were set to expire 1/23/02, and I just got new ones OK.  A firsttG approximation suggests you try again around the first of May to get newM ones.l  = > I also ordered VMS Alpha at the same time, and that licensee. > says "/TERMINATION=02-JAN-2003" as expected.  E As someone else suggested... got a VAX you've been using?  That would A explain why you get new _Alpha_ licenses, but not Layered Product 	 licenses.,   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 20:07:39 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>t Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.d' Message-ID: <3C335A7B.CC000A87@aaa.com>    OK. 9 I hadn't realy used the copies I ordered the 29-may-2001.n0 I installed my Alpha today, I thought I'd better# get licenses that lasted a while...W  0 Oh well, I'll use my "old" file and try again in the spring time.  7 B.t.w, I *did* have an old Alpha license with term datea* 29-may-2002, but did get a new one anyway.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.      Dean Woodward wrote: >  > Jan-Erik Svderholm wrote:a > >e > > Hi. 6 > > I just ordered and got new licenses from Montagar.> > > But, they says "/TERMINATION=29-MAY-2002" on all licenses.& > > This is the layered prod licenses. > H > You're not close enough to the expiration of your existing licenses to > get new ones.  > G > Mine were set to expire 1/23/02, and I just got new ones OK.  A firstfI > approximation suggests you try again around the first of May to get newg > ones.s > ? > > I also ordered VMS Alpha at the same time, and that licensey0 > > says "/TERMINATION=02-JAN-2003" as expected. > G > As someone else suggested... got a VAX you've been using?  That woulduC > explain why you get new _Alpha_ licenses, but not Layered Product  > licenses.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 11:18:51 -0800m% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>n Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.s( Message-ID: <3C335D1B.6B3F5FE@rdrop.com>   Jan-Erik Svderholm wrote:l >  > OK.s; > I hadn't realy used the copies I ordered the 29-may-2001. 2 > I installed my Alpha today, I thought I'd better% > get licenses that lasted a while...5  A Ah.  Somewhat on topic, I was somewhat horrified to find out thati   $ LICENSE DELETE *  : is a valid command.  Yikes!  Y'all be careful now, y'hear?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 14:30:26 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: Hobbyist licenses. - Message-ID: <0033000046549446000002L062*@MHS>2  0 =0AHope you kept those emails from Montagar. :^)# I always copy mine off to diskette.t   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ) Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:26 PM B To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: RE: Hobbyist licenses.s     Jan-Erik Svderholm wrote:e >g > OK.r; > I hadn't realy used the copies I ordered the 29-may-2001.n2 > I installed my Alpha today, I thought I'd better% > get licenses that lasted a while...f  A Ah.  Somewhat on topic, I was somewhat horrified to find out that    $ LICENSE DELETE *  ; is a valid command.  Yikes!  Y'all be careful now, y'hear?=y   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:07:13 -0500-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>2 Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.., Message-ID: <3C33767C.77148538@videotron.ca>   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:- >  > Hi.04 > I just ordered and got new licenses from Montagar.< > But, they says "/TERMINATION=29-MAY-2002" on all licenses.$ > This is the layered prod licenses.  I Perhaps that machine serial number had already some hobbyist licenses anda: Montagar is simply re-issuing the previously issued ones.   N I think you have to wait something like a monthe before expiry to re-order the. licences at which point it gets you a new one.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:30:55 -0600c- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.h3 Message-ID: <$gw3pJWA7rPx@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  P In article <3C335D1B.6B3F5FE@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes:   > $ LICENSE DELETE * >  > is a valid command.   , That's ok, because another valid command is:   $ BACKUP   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:58:41 -0500o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>x9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds-, Message-ID: <3C33747D.56A553B5@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:I >       "90 percent of the world's CPU chips are manufactured on assemblyn2 >       lines run by the OpenVMS operating system"  N Makes you wonder when a very small niche of customers (how many use VMS to fabN chips ? less than 5 ?) starts to represent a significant marketing edge. Heck,M why not say "90% of emails from the whitehouse come are processed by VMS ?").    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:00:46 -0500 - From: "John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org>k9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedso+ Message-ID: <sc332eb5.043@AAASMTA.aaas.org>e  E Because in reality, it's closer to 100% ...  in a manner of speaking.n  E >>> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 01/02/2002 3:58:41 PM >>>c Bob Koehler wrote:I >       "90 percent of the world's CPU chips are manufactured on assembly)2 >       lines run by the OpenVMS operating system"  L Makes you wonder when a very small niche of customers (how many use VMS to =H fab chips ? less than 5 ?) starts to represent a significant marketing =E edge. Heck, why not say "90% of emails from the whitehouse come are =n processed by VMS ?").p   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:14:28 GMTa  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsm+ Message-ID: <3C33949C.24151FF4@prodigy.net>e   JF Mezei wrote:. >  > Bob Koehler wrote:K > >       "90 percent of the world's CPU chips are manufactured on assemblye4 > >       lines run by the OpenVMS operating system" > P > Makes you wonder when a very small niche of customers (how many use VMS to fabP > chips ? less than 5 ?) starts to represent a significant marketing edge. Heck,O > why not say "90% of emails from the whitehouse come are processed by VMS ?").   7 Are they?  Their Web site doesn't seem to be VMS based:   ^ http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?mode_u=on&mode_w=on&site=www.whitehouse.gov&submit=Examine   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:27:56 GMTt1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>h9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsr' Message-ID: <3C33B447.EDE26D0E@fsi.net>s   Bob Koehler wrote: > r > In article <00A06E42.AA5412CF@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: > >eP > > The sad fact is that the lack of anything positive about VMS often gets par-P > > leyed into debates that there must be something very negative happening with > > VMS. > I >    I just got a very nice glossy (with a cover letter from Mark Gorham)- >    which included: > I >       "AlphaServers running OpenVMS came in first with the fewest hoursm/ >       of downtime"  (TechWise Research, Inc.)t > I >       "measure continuous availability of OpenVMS systems not in hours,n* >       days or even months, but in years" > % >       "Clusters: the gold standard"  > I >       "90 percent of the world's CPU chips are manufactured on assemblyr2 >       lines run by the OpenVMS operating system" > H >       "with our OpenVMS system, I don't have to worry about security."6 >       (David E. McKelleb, Utah Valley State College) > I >    So someone in Compaq IS saying good things about VMS.  But it leavessE >    me wondering if anyone outside the choir is hearing it.  I thinkrH >    those of us in c.o.v have aleady heard all the above, I wish Compaq3 >    would say the same things out loud, in public.h  G Alright, so let me play devil's advocate for a moment: out of the whole[/ of the "public", who should Compaq "say it" to?/  ? I am currently being pressed for this info. in a private e-mailh@ conversation. I'd like the group's input, if I may be so bold...   -- e David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/f   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 14:25:02 -0500- From: "Cannell, David M." <canneldm@pweh.com> 9 Subject: ITS_SSV.exe - Time Source software from TraconexoK Message-ID: <D30064BBFF2DD51180BC00508BDF3EE7030A750A@pusehe07.eh.pweh.com>   K We're having a problem with some old, no longer supported software, writtent to support a time source box.o  J This software/hardware is used to distribute time to all our VAXen to keepG the times synchronized.  The time is received  via the old Traconex boxdK (with the latest chip update to get around an original 16 year limit of dipl switches) via radio signal.r  L At this point the date delivered to all the systems has reverted back to VMSG day 0 (Nov 17, 1858).  Needless to say this is not doing our shop floor4F timekeeping much good.  This has affected only the VAXen whose time isH distributed via DECnet while the Alphas times are distributed via TCPIP.  D We DO have the source code but have not had any luck re-compiling itL regardless of the fact that we're not quite sure how the BINARY_TIME_OFFSETSD table needs to be modified.  We're currently attempting to patch the executable with no success.-  D Anyone have any experience with this software?  We would welcome any assistance.a   Thanks, Dave Cannell VMS support for CSCo canneldm@pweh.comh dcannell@csc.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:39:59 +0000s% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>a= Subject: Re: ITS_SSV.exe - Time Source software from Traconexa' Message-ID: <3C337E2F.DB646E34@iee.org>   N > At this point the date delivered to all the systems has reverted back to VMSI > day 0 (Nov 17, 1858).  Needless to say this is not doing our shop flooro  / Can you go for the easy fix (feed the VAXen then same food as the Alphas)?r  % If not, then how does the box deliver & time to the VAXen? Via ethernet, RS232 or some other way?  0 You need to start by checking that at that point- the correct information is returned (i.e. thes! box delivers something sensible).t  F > We DO have the source code but have not had any luck re-compiling itN > regardless of the fact that we're not quite sure how the BINARY_TIME_OFFSETSF > table needs to be modified.  We're currently attempting to patch the > executable with no success.e  0 If you have the sources and the box delivers the' correct information, all you need is a n! programmer an you are all set :-)   * If you cannot get the *unmodified* sources% to compile and link then you have theg# wrong sources, you have incorrectlya' configured the build environment or youn$ don't know how to build the software	 properly.a  # If it's the last one of those, thent. I'm not sure why you think patching will help!   So start at the beginning:/ 1. Are you sure that the time box is deliveringt     valid information to the VAX?  . 2. Can you compile the unmodified source code?.    If not, post the exact commands you use and    the exact error messages.   Antonio    --     ---------------w- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:39:33 +1030@% From: Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au>o3 Subject: Re: MicroVAX II, which version of OpenVMS? * Message-ID: <3C33D97D.A865B2E8@vsm.com.au>   Hi William,W   William wrote: > 2 > I know the current version of OpenVMS is 7.3 but4 > was curious what version came with the MicroVAX II > when it was in circulation?i  I I'm fairly certain that my first MicroVAX II (in 1986) came with MicroVMSr V4.2.n   Regards,           Jeremy Begg   =   +---------------------------------------------------------+p=   |            VSM Software Services Pty. Ltd.              |L=   |                 http://www.vsm.com.au/                  |g=   |       "OpenVMS Systems Management & Programming"        |c=   |---------------------------------------------------------| =   | P.O.Box 402, Walkerville, |  E-Mail:  jeremy@vsm.com.au |l=   | South Australia 5081      |   Phone:  +61 8 83592155    |r=   |---------------------------|  Mobile:  0414 422 947      | =   |  A.C.N. 068 409 156       |     FAX:  +61 8 82231777    |e=   +---------------------------------------------------------+e   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:53:26 -0600p- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)rP Subject: Re: Proof!  I can secure UNIX faster than VMS! Was: Re: Congratulations3 Message-ID: <9$AbI$aOjhQ0@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  ] In article <3C24A072.BFA17FC1@bellsouth.net>, Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net> writes:v >> > H > It was interesting to note that this individual says that the only way9 > to "secure" a Unix system is by shutdown and power off./  E    Now he really should have compareed JUST the OS by making sure hisl,    UNIX was Ultrix-32 on the same model VAX.  G    Power off being good enough for the VMS system, just how much longero-    does it take Ultirx to shut down that VAX?e  C    Mind you, I've got a friend with a VAX 3100 and a copies of botho(    VMS and Ultrix, maybe I'll go try it!   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:23:08 GMTf' From: Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com>e Subject: Re: S/MIME on OpenVMS?m- Message-ID: <3C337A37.6812F4CC@theblakes.com>   
 Koloth wrote:d  J > Is there the capability for S/MIME on OpenVMS?  S Standing for Secure (I+ > believe)  Is this planned for the future?:  H In the "what's new" section for Mozilla 0.9.7 (available for OpenVMS) it says:w  L Mozilla Mail&News now supports basic S/MIME functionality although the UI is still incomplete   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:32:20 -0500+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>h2 Subject: Stateless vs Stateful App Server ConceptsT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B42@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   George,   G Based on your background, you are likely already aware of the theory ineA this article on the difference between "stateless" and "stateful" : programming, but it might be of use to other readers here.  * http://www.adiscon.com/IIS/isapi005.htm=20' "Programming in Stateless Environments"h  D Since it is an article from 1996 (ok, ok - so I pack rat interestingG articles I find..), I would be interested in your feedback on these twoeE issues when online $'s start to enter the picture ie. when one startsiF having online credit card transactions, there obviously has to be someF additional steps taken to ensure transaction integrity when individual& web servers in the rack go "kerplunk".  F Also, from your perspective, how are large web sites handling business< continuity requirements for their App Servers ie. multi-site requirements?=20   Thx,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanth Compaq Canada Corp.f Professional Servicesu Voice: 613-592-4660/ Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----; From: George William Herbert [mailto:gherbert@gw.retro.com]  Sent: January 2, 2002 6:45 PMc To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comx! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqp    ( I hate to follow myself up, but I wrote:E >>http requests are effectively connectionless transactions ... while-, >>tcp is a connection protocol ... [snipped] >6C >http/1.0 was connectionless; http/1.1 is stateful and can downloadj" >multiple objects per TCP session.  > It was pointed out in email that "stateful" is not entirely an: accurate description of the network behaviour of http/1.1;= more precisely, it's stateless but keeps the TCP session openp8 for multiple HTTP operations in the same network stream,> without multiplying the startup/teardown overhead.  The actual5 server behaviour has to be formally stateless though.5     -george william herberta gherbert@retro.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:49:37 +0100( From: "Nico de Jong" <nico@farumdata.dk>Y Subject: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise of comp1 Message-ID: <IpKY7.1056$Gy.10444@news.get2net.dk>c  , Alex Colvin <alexc@world.std.com> skrev i en. nyhedsmeddelelse:GpBs72.437Dq@world.std.com...G > >I've never seen a Mac-fan ... who didnt want to learn about anythingo > >else. >p > --7 > "not not" not Algol -- DTSS Algol 60 Reference Manual- > -- > mac the naf   Oh sh.., how embarrassing...J And I've even been told by my main supplier that my command of the English language is above average...I Anyway, what I mean, was "I've never seen a Mac-fan who did want to learn2 ...."3  J I've read quite some reactions on this statement, but (for me) it is still true.bJ I didnt want to p... people off (I'm not in the trolling business), but itL seems that the kind of people the Mac attracts, is different from country to; country. I've truly no idea why. This _is_ meant seriously.    Nico   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 17:30:37 -05002 From: Roland Hutchinson <rolands.spamtrap@usa.net>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The    demise of 4 Message-ID: <a101oa$nh2qi$1@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de>  3 On Wednesday 02 January 2002 16:53, Peter da Silva u <peter@abbnm.com>wrote:N  . > In article <3C32C06C.A29CEF8B@videotron.ca>,1 > JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:   $ > But MacOS was layers of kludges on > top of kludges,   = This distinguishes it from other long-lived, widely deployed n( operating systems in precisely what way?  . > and it's a tribute to the quality of Apple'sB > developers that they managed to keep it from turning into a mess > worse than Windows."  
 Amen to that!A   --  A Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.e  A NB mail to rolands.spamtrap@usa.net is heavily filtered to removeu8 spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 01:05:30 +0000/ From: pg_nh@sabi.Clara.co.UK (Piercarlo Grandi)iY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise of s- Message-ID: <yf3k7v0xmzp.fsf@home.sabi.co.UK>e  0 >>> On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:18:41 -0500, JF Mezei( >>> <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> said:  ( jfmezei.spamnot> Charles Richmond wrote:  F >> IMHO (and others HO), Bobby Palmer was a hired *assassin*...broughtD >> in by the board of directors of DEC to dismantle the company. See >> threads in <alt.sys.pdp10>.  H jfmezei.spamnot> You're giving him too much credit. When you look at hisD jfmezei.spamnot> quarterly game of musical chairs as hiw only way toF jfmezei.spamnot> give Wall Street some positive sign that he was doingE jfmezei.spamnot> something, I am not so sure the guy really had it inV@ jfmezei.spamnot> him to direct such a company, even less turn it  jfmezei.spamnot> around. [ ... ]  C Perhaps he was not that brilliant, but I think that he was set on a C nearly impossible mission: at some point in their life tech companyaG managers decide that it is in their best interests to stop fighting fordF market share and milk mercilessly the installed base (and the existingE well expensed/depreciated company assets), knowing that the installedE. based is locked in until at least they retire.  G   As far as I can see this was Aker's policy at IBM and is now Zander's,B   policy at Sun. At Sun I seem to detect a very slightly different.   policy by McNealy, but it may be just words.  H This had been happening for years at DEC when Palmer became CEO; DEC wasA quite committed to milking its installed base (easy) without much,B thinking of growing it (hard), with the usual obsession with doing> nothing that might cause the installed base to switch to newerB categories of products (thus hobbling the desktop PC people etc.).  H   For an egregious example of the same happening at another company that0   was run in exactly the same way at that point:  C   [ ... adding TCP/IP as an alternative to SNA ... ] "Ellen said no E   way," Wellman recalled. She was afraid that "this will eat into ourlC   FEP [Front End Protocol] revenue. That's a cash cow, that's where@F   we're making all of our money, we just won't do it". She violated orE   did not understand the Silicon Valley rule, which is that if you dosG   not replace your technology, somebody else will".  [from "IBM redux",A   by D. Barr, Wiley, page 126].-  D At that point any strategy was painful: switching back to ``growth''G instead of ``margin'' mode would have caused large short term pain, and B a revolt by those managers nearing retirement. Continuing with the; milking would eventually make the installed base disappear.n  F It looks likely to me that the DEC board decided that the first optionH was unacceptable, and that to liquidate the company before the installed* base disappeared was the least bad option.  B It worked pretty well: it was the buyer, Compaq, that was mortallyE wounded. They bought a huge service business that was going to vanish-B because the installed base it was servicing was switching to other technologies and suppliers.a   ------------------------------   Date: 02 Jan 2002 20:44:09 GMT& From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coM; Message-ID: <slrna36n7n.8k8.stanb@citadel.metropolis.local>c  J On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:40:29 +0100, Nico de Jong <nico@farumdata.dk> wrote: >e. >Ian King <iking@killthewabbit.org> skrev i en/ >nyhedsmeddelelse:a0u6qs$qqe$0@216.39.146.95...y >aM >> But I've found inflexibility and stodginess in 22 year olds, and boundless L >> imagination in 50 year olds.  Evaluating someone based on a simple scalar >is # >> just not very effective.  -- Ian  >>6 >I tend to agree with you, with one exception (so far)J >I've never seen a Mac-fan which didnt think that the Mac was the greatestH >invention since the 7th day, and who didnt want to learn about anythingI >else. But then, which Mac-fan would be lurking in this old-timer group ?9   Me...   G And my first computer experience was early '70s with NCC Filetab on ICL I 1904.   Been building and using micros since '77 and currently run Linux,nE MSDOS, LDOS and RSTS/E as well as MacOs...and Windows if I have to...a? Macs are _still_ the nicest machines for everyday tasks (IMHO).a   -- o Cheers,f Stan Barr  stanb@dial.pipex.coms   The future was never like this!r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 14:01:29 -0800r& From: name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co 7 Message-ID: <name99-0201021401290001@handma2.apple.com>   ; In article <TRyY7.6$Gy.706@news.get2net.dk>, "Nico de Jong"s <nico@farumdata.dk> wrote:  / > Ian King <iking@killthewabbit.org> skrev i en00 > nyhedsmeddelelse:a0u6qs$qqe$0@216.39.146.95... > N > > But I've found inflexibility and stodginess in 22 year olds, and boundlessM > > imagination in 50 year olds.  Evaluating someone based on a simple scalara > is$ > > just not very effective.  -- Ian > > 7 > I tend to agree with you, with one exception (so far)iK > I've never seen a Mac-fan which didnt think that the Mac was the greatestaI > invention since the 7th day, and who didnt want to learn about anythingwJ > else. But then, which Mac-fan would be lurking in this old-timer group ?  I Unlike, of course, those flexible UNIX types who are always so willing toeD concede that perhaps in a few cases other people have solved certain problems better than UNIX did?   > Nico   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:18:41 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co , Message-ID: <3C33792B.D9BA4A17@videotron.ca>   Charles Richmond wrote:mH > IMHO (and others HO), Bobby Palmer was a hired *assassin*...brought in > by theU > board of directors of DEC to dismantle the company. See threads in <alt.sys.pdp10>.o  I You're giving him too much credit. When you look at his quarterly game of:M musical chairs as hiw only way to give Wall Street some positive sign that herL was doing something, I am not so sure the guy really had it in him to directK such a company, even less turn it around. And when Pfeiffer came to him, it N was probably a very easy job for Pfeiffer to influence Palmer since Palmer was' in such a void, not knowing what to do.-   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:24:57 GMT ) From: jchausler <jchausler@earthlink.net>uY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co0- Message-ID: <3C3377CE.B3A60C5D@earthlink.net>e   Charles Richmond wrote:o  F > I also have a Linux box, but it is *not* attached to the 'net. And IE > am *very* interested in learning all sorts of new computer stuff. IXE > am also interested in learning all sorts of *old* computer stuff...T5 > like about Bendix machines, LGP-30's, and others...d  ? If you ever find out anything about Bendix G-20's, particularly ; about any other than the three which were at CIT/CMU in thet> mid and late 60's, let me know.  Rumor has it that those three; machines survive in private hands but I have been unable tof= locate them.  One of them was referred to as the "engineeringe; prototype" so I wonder how many were actually manufactured.e7 I have some generic information but someone borrowed mye< processor manual 30 plus years ago and I'm still waiting for< its return.  (I still have several one-inch wide tape spools5 labeled "Bendix G-20", it was blocked like DECtape son$ you could use it like a slow disk:-)  = G-15 stuff is readily available, there's a group in Australial& working to get one going last I heard.  9 I know of no other Bendix machines than these two models,e do you?    Chris2 AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPEi $$   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 21:53:31 GMT & From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co % Message-ID: <a0vvgr$2op@web.nmti.com>s  , In article <3C32C06C.A29CEF8B@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:aN > There are a few MAC fans here. MAC fans have an affinity with VMS: quality.   J Mac? Quality? Well, maybe in the future, now they finally have an OS to goL along with the great GUI. But MacOS was layers of kludges on top of kludges,L and it's a tribute to the quality of Apple's developers that they managed to4 keep it from turning into a mess worse than Windows.   -- o+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.aE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."xL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:20:54 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>yY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of con, Message-ID: <3C33F819.74DF6DDD@videotron.ca>   Peter da Silva wrote:oL > Mac? Quality? Well, maybe in the future, now they finally have an OS to goN > along with the great GUI. But MacOS was layers of kludges on top of kludges,N > and it's a tribute to the quality of Apple's developers that they managed to6 > keep it from turning into a mess worse than Windows.  L The kernel may have been flawed without real multitasking, and they may haveN taken a strange decision to base the API on PASCAL calling standards, but theyM had established standards back in 1984 and there are some programs that stillA work today.e  V Many of the kludges were made to support that original design (upwards compatibility).   ------------------------------  " Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:16:14 GMT' From: alexc@world.std.com (Alex Colvin) Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise of com)( Message-ID: <GpBs72.437Dq@world.std.com>  J >I've never seen a Mac-fan which didnt think that the Mac was the greatestH >invention since the 7th day, and who didnt want to learn about anythingI >else. But then, which Mac-fan would be lurking in this old-timer group ?   G I'm not sure whether this includes me. I'm (or at least was) a Mac fan,-F although I don't think the Mac got it all right (and you don't want toH look too close at how they did it). I'm also somewhat of an old-timer.  ; But it is true that I do want to learn about anything else.l     Or didn't you mean?   F >I've never seen a Mac-fan ... who didnt want to learn about anything  >else.   --6 	"not not" not Algol -- DTSS Algol 60 Reference Manual -- -
 	mac the nafa   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 03:50:42 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>- Subject: Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)e0 Message-ID: <87u1u4pm5p.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  , "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> writes:  c > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:3C32E0ED.57921AC2@videotron.ca...v > N > > Getting a router who has the ability to send its logs to a unix host using > > syslogd utility. > >oQ > > Does TCPIP V5.0 have that capability ? Does anyone know what sort of protocolm > > is used for this ? > C > No. The SYSLOG protocol (see RFC3164). There is a SYSLOGD port in ( > Hunter Goatley's VMS Freeware archive.  0 SO why does everyone hate OPCOM all of a sudden?  * I think the term is 'Use it, or lose it'!!   -- y< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:51:53 -0500% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>t- Subject: Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)c/ Message-ID: <u37e9qnvs28vee@news.supernews.com>n  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messagen* news:87u1u4pm5p.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com.... > "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> writes: >f> > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C32E0ED.57921AC2@videotron.ca... > > J > > > Getting a router who has the ability to send its logs to a unix host usingi > > > syslogd utility. > > >nJ > > > Does TCPIP V5.0 have that capability ? Does anyone know what sort of protocol > > > is used for this ? > >cE > > No. The SYSLOG protocol (see RFC3164). There is a SYSLOGD port in * > > Hunter Goatley's VMS Freeware archive. > 2 > SO why does everyone hate OPCOM all of a sudden? >t, > I think the term is 'Use it, or lose it'!! >e  E OPCOM doesn't listen for and log messages from remote devices.    ThenD SYSLOGD VMS port can forward messages that it receives to/via OPCOM.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:27:45 -0500n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s- Subject: Re: syslogd on VMS ? (router to VMS)e, Message-ID: <3C33F9B3.A3F48FF5@videotron.ca>   Paul Repacholi wrote:r2 > SO why does everyone hate OPCOM all of a sudden? > , > I think the term is 'Use it, or lose it'!!  M I doN't hate OPCOM, it is just that a router I just bought talks "syslog" andO@ VMS doesn't have a syslog deamon/server with the TCPIP services.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 12:26:25 GMTSN From: Casper.Dik@Holland.Sun.Com (Casper H.S. Dik - Network Security Engineer)! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqe0 Message-ID: <a0uu9h$30o$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>  3 [[ PLEASE DON'T SEND ME EMAIL COPIES OF POSTINGS ]].   jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:1  D >I always thought that this was due to that "distributed processing"> >craze gone awry.  Once the processing got doled out to pieces? >of gear, collecting it back became impossible.  One reason wase< >that a piece would become a separate company.  Once it did,; >it would go off on its own business path without the leashuB >it would have had if the group had stayed within an organization.   It's often one of   D 	"our OS doesn't scale, add more small boxes rather than one bigger"9 	"single/few CPU boxes are cheaper per CPU/net bandwidth"4  ( Works for some problems, not for others.  B When you have many single boxes and they do not all have identical! functions is when problems start.s   Casper --F Expressed in this posting are my opinions.  They are in no way related2 to opinions held by my employer, Sun Microsystems.? Statements on Sun products included here are not gospel and mayo be fiction rather than truth.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:00:38 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqh, Message-ID: <3C3374F2.79DE96A6@videotron.ca>   Tim Shoppa wrote: ? >         speed.  Such customers include Sprint, in Burlingame,2> >         California, which has purchased 33 Alphas to replace4 >         a DEC PDP-11/70 it had been using  [ ... ]  N If Compaq were shown this piece of information, how quickly would they rush to9 donate the intellectual property of the PDP-11 to Intel ?I  J If it took 33 alphas to replace a single PDP11, imagine what the PDP-11 IP2 could to to boost Intel's IA64 bloatware's speed !   :-) :-) :-) :_)t   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:08:15 GMTs+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>i! Subject: Re: The demise of compaq@) Message-ID: <u666kea1c.fsf@earthlink.net>    jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:S > E > I always thought that this was due to that "distributed processing"o? > craze gone awry.  Once the processing got doled out to piecesu@ > of gear, collecting it back became impossible.  One reason was= > that a piece would become a separate company.  Once it did, < > it would go off on its own business path without the leashC > it would have had if the group had stayed within an organization.r  E it wasn't even that ... just migration of function from mainframe outdC to the PC ... combination of 3270 emulation with screenscraping andi
 spreadsheets.a  D one of the "real" & "serious" problems is that the mainframes tendedD to have serious business continuity efforts (backups, recovery, etc)B which seldom existing on the PCs ... when serious corporate assetsF weren't just being copied to the PC ... but actually (only) resided at? the PC ... there started to be an upswing in business problems.m  A there was a study done in mid-90s that of the businesses that had>@ serious business assets resident on a non-backedup disk that hadE crashed ... 50 percent filed for bankruptcy within the first 30 days.a  B there was some serious efforts by the mainframe disk operations toC address the problem starting by at least the late '80s .... however>? various kinds of corporate "in-fighting" seriously hampered the. deployment.t  A The SNA business group didn't want to give up its market turf and ? revenue that it had from treating the PCs as emulated terminals>F ... the disk division wanted to deploy serious support providing "diskC speed" level bandwidth between the PCs and backend mainframe (alongoB with the appropriate applications ... making it practical for PCs,C workstations & departmental servers to treat backend mainframe diskiA farms on par with local disks). Complicating all this was the SAAsE effort which was a slightly disquised effort attempting to migrate as F much of the "lost" applications back to the mainframe ... treating theE PC was a really fancy, gui 3270 (does anybody remember the early '90s 9 efforts to have lotus 123 running on backend mainframe?).s  E this is somewhat related to the middleware and departmental computingd efforts.   related postings:b< http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#2 The demise of compaq> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#15 departmental servers   random sna & saa postingswH http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/94.html#33a High Speed Data Transport (HSDT)L http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#70 Series/1 as NCP (was: Re: System/1 ?)X http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#123 Speaking of USB ( was Re: ASR 33 Typing Element)? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#3 Computer of the centuryt7 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#51 APPC vs TCP/IPs7 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#53 APPC vs TCP/IPl: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#90 Ux's good points.9 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#29 20th March 2000'M http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#78 "Database" term ok for plain files?rM http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#79 "Database" term ok for plain files? M http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#89 "Database" term ok for plain files?rY http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#45 Does the word "mainframe" still have a meaning?'K http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#42 IBM's Workplace OS (Was: .. Pink) K http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#45 IBM's Workplace OS (Was: .. Pink)lM http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#56 Why not an IBM zSeries workstation?tk http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#49 Options for Delivering Mainframe Reports to Outside Organizat ionss< http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#49 PC Keyboard RelicsJ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#38 Flash and Content address memoryB http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#8 Blame it all on Microsoftl http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#49 any 70's era supercomputers that ran as slow as today's supercompu^ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#49 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?2 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#7 YKYGOW...6 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#21 3745 and SNI6 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#31 3745 and SNIE http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#16 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0iE http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#20 OT - Internet Explorer V6.03E http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#45 OT - Internet Explorer V6.0yM http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#19 HP Compaq merger, here we go again.aN http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#21 OT: almost lost LBJ tapes; Dictabelt7 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001k.html#46 3270 protocole< http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#17 mainframe question< http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#23 mainframe question7 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001m.html#19 3270 protocolu_ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#15 Replace SNA communication to host with something elsehJ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#23 Alpha vs. Itanic:  facts vs. FUDc http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#34 Hercules etc. IBM not just missing a great opportunity...e   -- _H Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:59:18 GMT-+ From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>0! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqc) Message-ID: <u1yh8e7o5.fsf@earthlink.net>u  6 gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert) writes: > < > The basic truth is that the current website infrastructure= > environments *are* highly scalable; they're also a lot moreo; > complex than outsiders usually give them credit, and thatw: > complexity and functionality are there for good reasons.  C and some of largest aren't even the "interactive" evolved platforms C ... unix, m'soft, etc ... but more of the legacy oriented platformsg like tandem.   -- iH Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 14:07:17 -0800a4 From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert)! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqd' Message-ID: <a100al$ajr$1@gw.retro.com>   - Anne & Lynn Wheeler  <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:i> >for the web environment ... most of the gui stuff that is cpuC >demanding is on the front-end personal computers/workstations. the ? >back-end webservers (in principle operate very much the way of G >mainframe legacy systems doing online transactions) have suffered from2" >lack of scallable implementation. >eG >first web servers ran http over tcp/ip and spawned a new address spaceeD >and task for every http request. for web servers that operated at aD >few transactions per minute there wasn't much of a scallable issue. >oD >http requests are effectively connectionless transactions ... while+ >tcp is a connection protocol ... [snipped]   B http/1.0 was connectionless; http/1.1 is stateful and can downloadC multiple objects per TCP session.  As someone who once accidentallytA launched a world-class website with the 1.1 keepalive turned off,,C I can tell you that it makes a very large performance difference...a  D >The use of (new) connection TCP for connectionless transaction HTTPE >has been a real scaling issue as well as spawning & then just havings/ >different address space for every transaction.-  : Actually, current webserver software doesn't even remotely< fork() for each connection, it usually establishes a tunable< number of subprocesses to handle requests and then hands off= the socket info to the subprocesses in a load balanced mannere to have them respond.  e  F >The other evolution for production webservers ... I believe was firstC >at YAHOO with the front-end routers with rotating routing to largefD >pool of backend servers (I have recollections of discussing it withC >the vendor engineer responsible for the implementation). There hadyF >been Q&D hack to DNS prior to that to return rotating IP-address from@ >pool but that was somewhat random and couldn't reach out to theE >caching intermediate servers. The initial deployment of the rotatingrD >routing code at YAHOO allowed significantly improved load balancing >across the back-end servers.e  9 Yes, and now is a major functional website component areae3 with the BigIP F5, Cisco LocalDirector, and similard$ dedicated load balancing components.  G >However, there still is significant extra computing resources expendediF >in the web environment to use connection & command oriented paradigms3 >in support of connectionless transaction activity.   ; Except that it's not truly connectionless; you have to havet> session tracking for a number of functional uses for ecommerce9 (session security and encryption, user ID tracking, etc).R  = The current multi-tier web environments evolved for a reason.a= Contrary to popular perception by those not actually involvedu; in building such large sites, there are specific functional(; reasons for each piece, and those of us who built them havec; spent significant amounts of time and effort optimizing thei7 architecture and development process (time and budget).e  9 A lot of the features are a "throw hardware at problem to E run someone else's off the shelf but slow/poorly optimized software".S; The whole rise of the Web Applications Server can be tracedd: to this; the App Server code is jack of all trades, master8 of none generic functionality framework.  But it's a lot= cheaper to double your hardware buy than double your schedulei; or programmers count, plus it offloads software maintenanceu2 to the vendor who shares it across many customers.  5 But a lot of others are due to conflicting functionali8 requirements in elements of the website.  When you start4 talking about terabytes of storage capacity for site6 contents, customer data, and product data, the details5 of how you optimize (OS, hardware platform choice andw: its loadout of components) the system running the database6 are very different from how you'd want to optimize the2 system running a webserver of app middleware code.5 The DB really needs a lot of shared memory to run thes2 DB properly; modern large SMP servers are the best	 solution.l  6 The webserver instances (threads, processes, whatever). are essentially independent, mostly I/O bound.2 It's a waste of system interconnect to put them on4 the same huge SMP system as the DB is; you can stack3 them on single CPU systems with plenty of RAM and aa( local disk if you want, they don't care.  8 The App server traditionally handles two things; session5 tracking, and dynamic page generation.  Most of theseu4 run in Java, end up with multi-gigabyte working sets1 for modest numbers of threads, and are CPU bound.x2 Now, you can back off and impliment the app server- functionality in the web server and database; + you can dump the session tracking in the DB30 and do dynamic pages on the webservers.  But the- fundamental architecture isn't noticably more - efficient if you do that.  Hitting a vendor'st0 session info cache in the Java app server versus. hitting your own customized session info cache2 in the database and whether you have 2 or 3 system0 tiers end up mostly coming down to custom coding2 versus system performance.  You have to be talking. very very large sites before it's obvious that. more optimized coding and less hardware is the0 right answer there.  The inter-system IP traffic* isn't much of the overall work going on in1 processing the session data, the DB queries, etc.   - There have been site architects who did theire. own web/app server combos using typically C or5 Perl and a random database backend; there's an active 0 and lively debate over what sized and complexity/ sites are cheaper that way versus using someoneg, elses' slower but more prepackaged app / web/ server software.  But the functionality in each - case remains the same; the only questions are . where do you draw lines around physical server2 boxes, and how much do you pay for hardware versus( engineering versus the total complexity.  : The basic truth is that the current website infrastructure; environments *are* highly scalable; they're also a lot moreh9 complex than outsiders usually give them credit, and that 8 complexity and functionality are there for good reasons.     -george william herbertt gherbert@retro.com   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 03:03:44 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>! Subject: Re: The demise of compaq 0 Message-ID: <87bsgcr2wf.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  - Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:C  6 Tim, please tell me you are joking, I thought you said> >         California, which has purchased 33 Alphas to replace4 >         a DEC PDP-11/70 it had been using  [ ... ]  ) 33 Alphas to replace ONE 70!! Ah, gark...c   -- u< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.p@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:11:38 GMT   From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>! Subject: Re: The demise of compaq + Message-ID: <3C3393F2.9CAAF51D@prodigy.net>P  < Maybe DEC had better marketing than they receive credit for!   Paul Repacholi wrote:h > / > Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:. > 8 > Tim, please tell me you are joking, I thought you said@ > >         California, which has purchased 33 Alphas to replace6 > >         a DEC PDP-11/70 it had been using  [ ... ] > + > 33 Alphas to replace ONE 70!! Ah, gark...r >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.eB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:25:10 GMTh" From: HomerWelch <hjwxxx@home.com>! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqt( Message-ID: <3C3396CC.ECE15E3A@home.com>   Walter Rottenkolber wrote: >    [snip]   > I > The GUI is partly to blame. Users like the eye candy approach. The tech2L > revolution also lets you buy a system that runs all this complex stuff for+ > $1000 less than a Kaypro II cost in 1983.c >  > Walter Rottenkolber$  A Kaypro!  I haven't heard that term for many years.  Reminds me ofO9 Microcopia Magazine.  I wonder whatever happened to Davidh= Thompson.  Did he finally go 'round the Bend?  (cough, cough,e" pardon me, one of my better puns.)   -- o  % Homer J. Welch        hjwxxx@home.comk Troy, Michigan   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:44:36 -0800 4 From: gherbert@gw.retro.com (George William Herbert)! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqe' Message-ID: <a10614$bn3$1@gw.retro.com>g  ( I hate to follow myself up, but I wrote:E >>http requests are effectively connectionless transactions ... whilef, >>tcp is a connection protocol ... [snipped] > C >http/1.0 was connectionless; http/1.1 is stateful and can downloadl" >multiple objects per TCP session.  > It was pointed out in email that "stateful" is not entirely an: accurate description of the network behaviour of http/1.1;= more precisely, it's stateless but keeps the TCP session openn8 for multiple HTTP operations in the same network stream,> without multiplying the startup/teardown overhead.  The actual5 server behaviour has to be formally stateless though.z     -george william herbert. gherbert@retro.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 18:31:50 -0400h+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>s! Subject: Re: The demise of compaq 1 Message-ID: <3C335216.409E4525@trailing-edge.com>o   Paul Repacholi wrote:  > / > Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:e > 8 > Tim, please tell me you are joking, I thought you said@ > >         California, which has purchased 33 Alphas to replace6 > >         a DEC PDP-11/70 it had been using  [ ... ] > + > 33 Alphas to replace ONE 70!! Ah, gark...4  = As always, I'm sure that there was at least *some* promise of-+ improved functionality with the new Alphas.M  F The group sidewise-from-mine now has a 2-node Tru64 Alpha 4000 clusterG to do the same work that 20 years ago was done with a PDP-11/35, a cardoC reader, and two RK05 drives.  The new Alphacluster - running OracleuD 8 - has over 150 Gbytes spread over 20-odd spindles.  While the work> is the same, the database has grown by a factor of 2 or 3 overE the past twenty years (I don't think it would fit on a RK05 anymore -t# it is about 3 megabytes right now.)b   Tim.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:20:47 GMTn  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqi+ Message-ID: <3C33B237.45205E3A@prodigy.net>t   Tim Shoppa wrote:  >  > Paul Repacholi wrote:e > >e1 > > Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:h > >e: > > Tim, please tell me you are joking, I thought you saidB > > >         California, which has purchased 33 Alphas to replace8 > > >         a DEC PDP-11/70 it had been using  [ ... ] > >P- > > 33 Alphas to replace ONE 70!! Ah, gark.... > ? > As always, I'm sure that there was at least *some* promise of - > improved functionality with the new Alphas.a > H > The group sidewise-from-mine now has a 2-node Tru64 Alpha 4000 clusterI > to do the same work that 20 years ago was done with a PDP-11/35, a card E > reader, and two RK05 drives.  The new Alphacluster - running OraclehF > 8 - has over 150 Gbytes spread over 20-odd spindles.  While the work@ > is the same, the database has grown by a factor of 2 or 3 overG > the past twenty years (I don't think it would fit on a RK05 anymore -e% > it is about 3 megabytes right now.)  >  > Tim.  O That reminds me of Microsoft.  At one time they gave details on their Web site  K about the farm of servers they used for their technical "knowledge base."  eL As I recall, if you added up the total RAM in all the machines, it was more M than enough to contain the entire knowledge base, had it all been in a singlekI machine.  As configured, large quantities of disk were also present, and eK presumably required.  I imagine most of the RAM was devoted to hundreds of h copies of the OS.a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:55:57 -0500: From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix)! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqt. Message-ID: <t8o01a.rbe.ln@escape.shannon.net>  N In article <3C33B237.45205E3A@prodigy.net>, cjt  <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote:g  Q > That reminds me of Microsoft.  At one time they gave details on their Web site pM > about the farm of servers they used for their technical "knowledge base."  wN > As I recall, if you added up the total RAM in all the machines, it was more O > than enough to contain the entire knowledge base, had it all been in a singlepK > machine.  As configured, large quantities of disk were also present, and iM > presumably required.  I imagine most of the RAM was devoted to hundreds of # > copies of the OS.t  I I've heard the same.  One paper I read on the net said that the MicrosoftoF farm could be replaced by either a very small cluster of high-end UNIXE servers or a single IBM mainframe, and at far lower yearly costs, andl% probably a lower total hardware cost.r  B It doesn't take a genius to figure out why they are doing it... :)  J I worked in a shop once where I was writing software on DEC Alpha systems.I In general, we could handle huge loads on them because the interfaces wastI on the client, so it was a lot like older systems: efficient and minimal,.H with lot's of debugging and behind-the-scences functions, not user-toys.  J I was criticized at one point for suggesting some processes be switched toH batch processing since the data needs were not realtime and the machines! were virtually unloaded at night./  H Anyway, they were replaces by Microsoft NT machines, at a ratio of aboutJ 4 NT machines for each original UNIX machine, and each of the new machines1 was at least 2-3 times faster than the originals.n  0 Yet another example of "moving forward" I guess.   -- w  H UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 22:56:36 -070014 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqr8 Message-ID: <vbf73u0u224e9aeql8e710gqi7l1p56sq5@4ax.com>  ( On 2 Jan 2002 07:35:05 -0800, Tim Shoppa! <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:l  > >In article <4495ef1f.0201012213.7a582c86@posting.google.com>,! >Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com says...e >>8 >>Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message/ >>news:<3C323450.221EE51C@trailing-edge.com>...r
 >>> [snip] >>>1C >>> What amazes me about "modern system design" is the large number/F >>> of boxes it takes to perform a single function.  It used to be theG >>> case that you had a terminal, the terminal hooked to the mainframe.rG >>> Now the whole industry seems designed around putting as many layerstI >>> of middleware or "multi-tiered" in between the start and the end, andiI >>> I honestly don't see the purpose most of the time.  The old mainframenC >>> handled thousands of users on a single CPU with a few MIPS; howsB >>> come it takes dozens of multi-GHz servers to do the same thing
 >>> today? >>> C >>> I strongly suspect that this isn't the result of any conspiracy-G >>> to sell more hardware, but it's more a lack of understanding by thee >>> system architects. >>G >>I'd be willing to wager that any off the shelf Alpha could handle theuF >>thousands of users with terminal shells and the batch processed text@ >>jobs of yesteryear, and still have plenty of cycles left over. >*B >I agree... it *could*, but that's not the way people buy and sellI >systems (hardware+OS+software) anymore.  In fact, they haven't done thiseB >for a while - here's an interesting thing I trimmed out of an old >journal nearly a decade ago:. >nE >The quote from the December 6, 1993 edition of _Open Systems Today_:n >.> >        For now, the most enthusiastic buyers of Alpha appear= >        to be existing DEC customers that need more hardware > >        speed.  Such customers include Sprint, in Burlingame,= >        California, which has purchased 33 Alphas to replace 3 >        a DEC PDP-11/70 it had been using  [ ... ]<  < Why didn't they just buy another 11/70 from Mentec? Not cool% enough technology for the investors?    9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada- -- eF Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov 						spam traps   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 13:09:12 -0600 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)n8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs3 Message-ID: <Y4Ypc1rH2UO2@eisner.encompasserve.org>;  i In article <2hIY7.219$5Y4.4258@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:    > K > If upper management really wanted to kill OpenVMS, they would have put ustL > into maintenance mode, on Alpha/VAX only, when EV8 was cancelled.  InsteadF > they have committed to a port to Itanium, and have lived up to theirE > committment to fund it, and have put into place programs to protecteI > customers current and future investments.   Once the port is completed,eL > OpenVMS will be in a position to run on "industry standard" hardware - notN > tied to a system platform vendor.  I think that is a good position to be in,> > even if I hope that we sell lots of Compaq (or HP) hardware. >   @ 	This is key.  And Marvel sales counter some of the other FUD inC 	that direction (when they occur) as recent speculation was/is thata 	EV7 won't even ship.s   				Roba   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 13:21:38 -0600b+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs3 Message-ID: <ma5Fqc9Sdllk@eisner.encompasserve.org>'  i In article <3C33578D.2FE85BC5@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> writes:Y   > C > If the customers are new, how did they find out about VMS ?  Doesr$ > stealth marketing really happen ?  >  	wA 	Or the much more likely engineers deciding on the best solution. ; 	Yes, VMS is the best solution for some problems, bar none.h   				Robs   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:22:44 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs> Message-ID: <86JY7.50052$Sj1.20474273@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:Y4Ypc1rH2UO2@eisner.encompasserve.org...tE > In article <2hIY7.219$5Y4.4258@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" % <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:  >  > >lJ > > If upper management really wanted to kill OpenVMS, they would have put usE > > into maintenance mode, on Alpha/VAX only, when EV8 was cancelled.c InsteadtH > > they have committed to a port to Itanium, and have lived up to theirG > > committment to fund it, and have put into place programs to protectoK > > customers current and future investments.   Once the port is completed,"J > > OpenVMS will be in a position to run on "industry standard" hardware - notpL > > tied to a system platform vendor.  I think that is a good position to be in,.@ > > even if I hope that we sell lots of Compaq (or HP) hardware. > >s >dA > This is key.  And Marvel sales counter some of the other FUD in D > that direction (when they occur) as recent speculation was/is that > EV7 won't even ship. >f  J Won't ship? Umm, suffice it to say that EV7 systems no longer are confined" to the Marvel Mansion in Marlboro.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 14:32:26 -0600h+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs3 Message-ID: <0l7QehiT0L4R@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  u In article <86JY7.50052$Sj1.20474273@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:p >  >>B >> This is key.  And Marvel sales counter some of the other FUD inE >> that direction (when they occur) as recent speculation was/is thatm >> EV7 won't even ship.w >> > L > Won't ship? Umm, suffice it to say that EV7 systems no longer are confined$ > to the Marvel Mansion in Marlboro. >   B 	Hmmm... given that they are still a ways out on the roadmaps, canD 	we assume they are just internal seed units?  Surely none are going! 	in very large basesments, right?h   				Robn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:23:20 -0500d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs, Message-ID: <3C337A42.19351055@videotron.ca>   jlsue wrote: > D > Well, I suspect that Fred gets the same internal 'VMS Wins' e-mail > that I receive regularly.i  K But unless you also see "VMS Losses" email messages, you cannot have a goods! idea of what is realkly going on.o  K For instance, think of a shop that has 2 applications on seperate vaxes andiG that is all that is left on VMS. They want to merge those into a single.N machine to reduce costs for the next couple of years until those apps are move to unix.  N You would see a "a new VMS sale". But the customer has already decided to moveK away from VMS, and has already shifted much of his VMS infrastructure (theyDB used to be a very large vms shop) to HP-UX over the last 10 years.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 15:22:27 -0600a- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)b8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs3 Message-ID: <cuqXQAnOk2Jh@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  i In article <3C33578D.2FE85BC5@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> writes:n  H > Can you tell us if these are a small number of large orders or a large > number of small orders ?  D It must be the former, since certainly the average price was greater  than the total number of orders.  D Or do you have some other way of comparing pure numbers to dollars ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 20:37:29 GMTo4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs> Message-ID: <dcKY7.50059$Sj1.20508878@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:0l7QehiT0L4R@eisner.encompasserve.org...oJ > In article <86JY7.50052$Sj1.20474273@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C., Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: > >o > >>D > >> This is key.  And Marvel sales counter some of the other FUD inG > >> that direction (when they occur) as recent speculation was/is that  > >> EV7 won't even ship.  > >> > > E > > Won't ship? Umm, suffice it to say that EV7 systems no longer are  confined& > > to the Marvel Mansion in Marlboro. > >  >WC > Hmmm... given that they are still a ways out on the roadmaps, canPE > we assume they are just internal seed units?  Surely none are going " > in very large basesments, right? >   G Well, they've had units outside of MRO since September IIRC. PresumablyRL internal seed units as Pass One silicon materialized in November. If I stillJ had my TSC and Need To Know, I wouldn't be surprised to see some MarvelousJ things in a certain 180-acre basement on Savage Road by, say, May or June.L As for the roadmaps, every indication I've seen is that the program is ahead of schedule.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:39:02 -0500]- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>.8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs, Message-ID: <3C337DEF.D8318146@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > We canN > disagree over performance of IA64 relative to mythical future generations of > Alpha   G It is the reverse, IA64 is what is mythical, and Alpha is what is real.s    G > The only thing that can be achieved by encouraging a migration off of L > OpenVMS, is to increase the odds of OpenVMS profits shrinking to the pointA > where it is no longer important enough to continue development t    H The perception is that Compaq is keeping VMS only because the profits itK generates are necessary to subsidize the PC operation and that Compaq knowshL that killing VMS would result is almost all those customers deserting CompaqF for a long time. Ever chatted with Mr marcello about certain June 2000  decisions that were *not* made ?  L With this in mind, if Compaq really does need those revenus, then it is onlyH when customers threathen to reduce them that Compaq will react and allow6 marketing to counter the negative customers reactions.  E For instance, Compaq is eminently very aware of the terrible image it H generated with the June 25 murder announcement. The word "commitment" isN starting to come up often on Compaq litterature because Compaq realised thoughL the complaints from customers that it no longer had any credibility whenever it made any commitments.  M the VMS engineering should stop pointing fingers at complaining customers andpI should instead realise that when customers are bitterly complaining abouttE Compaq's handling of VMS, it is most probably because Compaq is doingdJ something very wrong. We are powerless to play the compaq politics, but asN customers we are giving pro-VMS employees some amunition to help further VMS'sN image inside of Compaq. It it up to you and your peers to use those complaintsM internally to help Compaq's upper management (Winkler and friends) to let VMSb out of its prison for good.-  J That small short lived renaissance proved that VMS could succeed with evenL some minimal marketing. Imagine if the same levels of marketing were granted on a permanent basis to VMS ?a      E Sorry to be politically incorrect, but the positive spin from the VMS-L engineers makes it look like you are being brainwashed by your employer intoN thinking all is fine and dandy with VMS while the customers are crying out forG help because the ship is sinking (or they see the iceberg right ahead).O  I > customers current and future investments.   Once the port is completed,oL > OpenVMS will be in a position to run on "industry standard" hardware - not# > tied to a system platform vendor.   G Good spin. But in reality, if VMS won't run on that special DS20, it is3J unlikely that VMS will run on all IA64 machines. Compaq will only give youM budgets to test it on a limited number of machines and those machines will bet$ far from industry-standard machines.  K Just because the cpu or ethernet chip comes from intel doesn't make the box0N industry-standard. Talk to the tandem folks about that. And for as long as VMSL is relegated to the high end small market niches, Compaq won't bother givingL you budgets to certify VMS on low end and midrange IA64s produced to competeN against Dell etc, and they certaintly won't give you budgets to certify VMS to run on Dell machines.-  L Just out of curiosity, will VMS provide support for USB ? It is a given thatK all Wintel boxes will have USB ports. Perhaps VMS will only be certified to & run on machines that do not have USB ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:37:55 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>p8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs' Message-ID: <3C33B69F.9916B331@fsi.net>h   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > [snip]K > If upper management really wanted to kill OpenVMS, they would have put us L > into maintenance mode, on Alpha/VAX only, when EV8 was cancelled.  InsteadF > they have committed to a port to Itanium, and have lived up to theirE > committment to fund it, and have put into place programs to protecttI > customers current and future investments.   Once the port is completed, L > OpenVMS will be in a position to run on "industry standard" hardware - notN > tied to a system platform vendor.  I think that is a good position to be in,> > even if I hope that we sell lots of Compaq (or HP) hardware.  F Of course, even then, without a major change of posture on the part of< VMS/Compaq, the affordability element will still be missing.   So close, yet so far.l   -- a David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 12:10:03 -0700r$ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" ) Message-ID: <3C335B0A.30D31F39@cha.ab.ca>e   FYI.K We will be upgrading our four AS1200's to four ES45's.  Right now, the four C ES45's are sitting in our receiving department.  Barring unforeseentJ circumstances, we will be migrating our applications (home-grown and third party) to the ES45's.o     Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  E > What in the world is there to discuss.  Eva Glass (whoever that is)h7 > apparently gets paid by the word, and not by content.l >eJ > "Alphacide causing fury at Intel" (the sub-title) - eh?  What was this a > reference to?  >rJ > The only evidence she presents to back up her title of "Now Compaq's VMSL > future wobbling badly" is that Intel won't "endorse" VMS...  Eh?   I'm not3 > sure what it would mean for them to "endorse" us.r >vG > Then she quotes someone in "the Valley" which I can only assume meansd > someone *at Intel* about it. >rM > I gotta ask:  Eva - does this crap pay well?  I could roll out of bed everyw4 > morning and crank out content free junk like that. >r  > Chris Bardell wrote in message6 > <9f261edc.0201020159.66999783@posting.google.com>...* > >http://www.theinquirer.net/02010201.htm > >s
 > >Discuss...l   -- Leey   Lee Y T Maht Email: lytmah@cha.ab.cas   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:20:39 GMTr4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"e> Message-ID: <b4JY7.50051$Sj1.20473230@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:gGIY7.221$5Y4.4503@news.cpqcorp.net...NE > What in the world is there to discuss.  Eva Glass (whoever that is) 7 > apparently gets paid by the word, and not by content.r >dJ > "Alphacide causing fury at Intel" (the sub-title) - eh?  What was this a > reference to?m > J > The only evidence she presents to back up her title of "Now Compaq's VMSL > future wobbling badly" is that Intel won't "endorse" VMS...  Eh?   I'm not3 > sure what it would mean for them to "endorse" us.6  J My guess is that if Intel chose to disclose the fact that it relies on VMSL as the host OS for the manufacturing software in its fabs, such a disclosure would be beneficial to VMS.   I A hi-tech company whose name eludes me has been running ads claiming thatsD its equipment is used in the production of 90 percent of the world'sG semiconductors. (Since the name eludes me, it wasn't the greatest ad insK history or I wasn't paying enough attention, or both). The ad made me think  of VMS, though.h     >nG > Then she quotes someone in "the Valley" which I can only assume meansr > someone *at Intel* about it. >fG > I gotta ask:  Eva - does this crap pay well?  I could roll out of bed  everyt4 > morning and crank out content free junk like that.  G I suspect that cranking swill for the Weekly World News would be a moreoA financially attractive undertaking. Probably a lot more fun, too!i   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:14:15 GMTf4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"e> Message-ID: <b_IY7.50050$Sj1.20470354@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:qG6Py$eO6PyS@eisner.encompasserve.org...eC > In article <3C333144.A6DF7AF8@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLeano' <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> writes:n >eJ > > Of course a blind man could see that they would be foolish to withdraw, > > from DII COE, but will Compaq see it ??? >tD > They validated Tru64 to a previous DII COE specification and foundE > that the government agencies were not interested.  They wanted VMS.   6 Ah. "Military Intelligence" is not ALWAYS an oxymoron!   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:10:40 -0500d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>,5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" , Message-ID: <3C33774A.9267407C@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:tN > Compaq seems to have its share of clueless folks, I would not assign such anM > appellation to Rich Marcello. Note that he managed to turn VMS around after , > Wes "Affinity" Melling's reign of NTerror.  K In all fairness, anyone would be able to do what Marcello was allowed to do@N during the short "renaissance" period.  What it really takes is for someone toH have the guts and imagination to find ways to market VMS from within the6 prison cell where VMS is being sequestered by Compaq.   J Once out of the prison, of course any marketing money will do wonders.  WeM were so happy to see *any* marketing that we didn't really discuss the meritsY/ of spending money on posters or flashing balls.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:13:14 -0500z- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"t, Message-ID: <3C3377E4.43A126E2@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:eL > I don't want to get into the blame game. From what I have seen Mark GorhamI > is doing a good job with the resources at his disposal and the rules oftF > engagement under which he must operate. Same goes for Rich Marcello.  J What is needed is for someone to break those rules of engagements and makeM sufficient noise when they are fired that Compaq will have to provide serious M explanations to its shareholders on why it is preventing the marketing of itsy most profitable product.   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 13:28:09 -0800n( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201021328.33d3e8fb@posting.google.com>.  n "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<gGIY7.221$5Y4.4503@news.cpqcorp.net>...E > What in the world is there to discuss.  Eva Glass (whoever that is) 7 > apparently gets paid by the word, and not by content.  > J > "Alphacide causing fury at Intel" (the sub-title) - eh?  What was this a > reference to?y > J > The only evidence she presents to back up her title of "Now Compaq's VMSL > future wobbling badly" is that Intel won't "endorse" VMS...  Eh?   I'm not3 > sure what it would mean for them to "endorse" us.  > G > Then she quotes someone in "the Valley" which I can only assume means  > someone *at Intel* about it. > M > I gotta ask:  Eva - does this crap pay well?  I could roll out of bed every.4 > morning and crank out content free junk like that. >  >  >   > Chris Bardell wrote in message6 > <9f261edc.0201020159.66999783@posting.google.com>...* > >http://www.theinquirer.net/02010201.htm > >o
 > >Discuss...s  H intel better be friendly to VMS ... it is their ticket into the world ofE high end computing, not windoze!  And if they treat us vms users like8G dogs, we will eventually leave for another vendor and hopefully by then  freevms or linux(gag!) !!!   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:40:00 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"o> Message-ID: <Q6LY7.50165$Sj1.20543206@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messaget7 news:d7791aa1.0201021328.33d3e8fb@posting.google.com...qB > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- news:<gGIY7.221$5Y4.4503@news.cpqcorp.net>...(G > > What in the world is there to discuss.  Eva Glass (whoever that is).9 > > apparently gets paid by the word, and not by content.  > >nL > > "Alphacide causing fury at Intel" (the sub-title) - eh?  What was this a > > reference to?  > >0L > > The only evidence she presents to back up her title of "Now Compaq's VMSJ > > future wobbling badly" is that Intel won't "endorse" VMS...  Eh?   I'm notc5 > > sure what it would mean for them to "endorse" us.3 > >oI > > Then she quotes someone in "the Valley" which I can only assume meansp  > > someone *at Intel* about it. > >aI > > I gotta ask:  Eva - does this crap pay well?  I could roll out of beds every 6 > > morning and crank out content free junk like that. > >  > >  > > " > > Chris Bardell wrote in message8 > > <9f261edc.0201020159.66999783@posting.google.com>..., > > >http://www.theinquirer.net/02010201.htm > > >y > > >Discuss...m >,J > intel better be friendly to VMS ... it is their ticket into the world ofG > high end computing, not windoze!  And if they treat us vms users like-I > dogs, we will eventually leave for another vendor and hopefully by thenp > freevms or linux(gag!) !!!  L There's no reason for Intel to *dislike* VMS. Hell, they use it to run their fabs, right?  J What's more, IPF will be a VMS platform. The more OSes on IPF, the happier Intel will be.  B It would be nice, though, if Intel would see fit to issue a public endorsement of VMS.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:52:58 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>s5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"e> Message-ID: <_iLY7.123216$pa1.39212205@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>   Terry,  E The object of the exercise is to kill the enemy. The 'friendlies' area already on our side.  1 http://adsales.wsj.com/Rates/Art/2002ratecard.pdf,  E A one-time full page ad in the US national edition of the Wall StreeteJ Journal costs $167,441.28 (see pg. 11 of the .pdf). Placing the same ad inJ the global edition of the WSJ costs about 1/3 more (includes the insertion) in the US National edition - see pg. 10).q  J Let's write what we collectively want to say to shareholders. Let's exposeI and skewer those in Compaq management who need beheading, as appropriate.M   Perhaps something like:d  &                    Compaq / HP Merger?(                              Not for us!  D The undersigned customers of Compaq feel that the proposed merger isF contrary to our interests. Since we are the ones providing Compaq with  revenues, we demand to be heard.  J We feel that Compaq would be best served by implementing ALL the following actions:   1) Rejection of the merger. 4 2) Exit from low-end consumer commodity PC business.K 3) Committment & Revitalization of OpenVMS / Tru64 / NSK systems, software,S and applications..- 4) Continued growth of the Services business.aE 5) Wholesale changes in Executive Management & the Board of Directorsg (without 'golden parachutes').  G Without the above course of action, we as individual customers, will bedK forced to seriously re-evaluate our desire to purchase anything from Compaqo or HP in the future.  . [10,000 customer names go here in small print]      @ We as customers know what it will take for us to continue to buyG OpenVMS/Tru64/Alpha/Itanic, and you know what they say (whomever 'they'd$ are) - the customer is always right.  H I'll contribute some money towards a trust fund for an ad like this. Any other contributors out there??        ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messages8 news:xkHY7.50038$Sj1.20417948@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... >S1 > "John Nebel" <nebel@csdco.com> wrote in messagePC > news:Pine.OSF.4.21.0201021016480.31508-100000@athena.csdco.com...N > >o
 > > Terry, > > K > > It would be helpful to know specific names to be able to write letters.S >gL > I don't want to get into the blame game. From what I have seen Mark GorhamI > is doing a good job with the resources at his disposal and the rules of-F > engagement under which he must operate. Same goes for Rich Marcello. >@D > Other good Friends of VMS include Fred Kleinsorge, Kerry Main, SueG > Skonetski, Hoff Hoffman, and other Compaq contributors to this forum.: > 	 > cheers,i >r	 > terry sf >a >  >I >    ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 03:45:14 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" 0 Message-ID: <87y9jgpmet.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  3 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:e  . > In article <3C32E0A7.F9DB5EAD@videotron.ca>,2 >  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  D > |> Not much said in that article. And I would debate the fact thatE > |> Compaq would need someone to keep the torch burning for 15 yeasrV? > |> due to DII CEO. I would think that Compaq would be able tooB > |> garantee support of existing VMS configurations for 15 years.  F > Also, not meaning to rain on anyones parade, but in 1994 when Mentec> > took over the PDP-11 Software from DEC they did not get IAS.= > Supposedly, the reason for this was one of those governmentoF > contracts that rewquired 20 some years of support.  That was 8 yearsF > ago.  Recent attempts to extract some kind of a hobbyist program for% > IAS on the PDP-11 were met with thee  D The 'contract' was SACs 'mushroom farms' and The Hole. Armegeden was to be delivered by PDP-11s.    -- u< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 22:11:07 +0000u% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>m5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"i' Message-ID: <3C33857B.76F5903D@iee.org>e   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > K > Well, my entry into the world of Contracting was as a System Engineer for I > a good sized collection of Pr1me Minis.  We were 2 years into an 8 yearhI > contract when the Army notified my contract manager that they would not M > be renewing.  It didn't bother me, as there was plenty of other interestingoL > work going on and my employment was never in jeopardy, but I have seen theL > employees of smaller and less reputable contracting firms who did not fare
 > as well.  1 I assume that such contracts are worded something , like: "We, the gummint, will pay $XXXXXX for+ each FOO. You promise to provide acceptabler. support for FOO until at least the year 2525".  7 You get to haggle over $XXXXXX and maybe the year 2525.s5 You may also get to haggle over the minimum number ofr0 FOOs they will purchase or some suitable minimum4 spend or whatever so that you are not out of pocket.  3 You almost certainly don't get the option to refusey3 to supply FOOs (and thereby cripple all their spaces1 lasers) just because there's noone left who wantsn to work on it.  / So in your case, they decided that they did noti. want to continue the deal. And similarly they , could decide that they no longer want to pay0 COMPAQ to provide DOE support. However, I assume. that neither you nor COMPAQ can walk away from1 such commitments without buying your - or their -p way out.  + It's a shame if COMPAQ have really lost the 0 IAS sources. Maybe they didn't have an incentive. to look hard enough. Having had to get hold of. old firmware once inside DIGITAL, I found that+ if you pushed enough buttons and had a good . enough business case, it could be tracked down6 in the space of only a few months. By then, of course,* I had found one of the original developers and had him mail me a copy ...  1 If there really is an ongoing government contracte1 with 12 years left to run, then you have 12 years1) to find a way into that contract and pushi, COMPAQ's buttons - then you know whether the sources really are lost :-)t   Antonioo   -- n   ---------------/- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgh   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 22:31:10 GMTm4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" > Message-ID: <OSLY7.50181$Sj1.20575253@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message8 news:_iLY7.123216$pa1.39212205@news3.rdc1.on.home.com... > Terry, >iG > The object of the exercise is to kill the enemy. The 'friendlies' arec > already on our side. > 3 > http://adsales.wsj.com/Rates/Art/2002ratecard.pdfh >fG > A one-time full page ad in the US national edition of the Wall Street-L > Journal costs $167,441.28 (see pg. 11 of the .pdf). Placing the same ad inL > the global edition of the WSJ costs about 1/3 more (includes the insertion+ > in the US National edition - see pg. 10).2 >:L > Let's write what we collectively want to say to shareholders. Let's exposeK > and skewer those in Compaq management who need beheading, as appropriate.Y >  > Perhaps something like:u >S( >                    Compaq / HP Merger?* >                              Not for us! >eF > The undersigned customers of Compaq feel that the proposed merger isH > contrary to our interests. Since we are the ones providing Compaq with" > revenues, we demand to be heard. >tL > We feel that Compaq would be best served by implementing ALL the following
 > actions: >e > 1) Rejection of the merger.f6 > 2) Exit from low-end consumer commodity PC business.C > 3) Committment & Revitalization of OpenVMS / Tru64 / NSK systems,i	 software,  > and applications.e/ > 4) Continued growth of the Services business.SG > 5) Wholesale changes in Executive Management & the Board of Directors   > (without 'golden parachutes'). > I > Without the above course of action, we as individual customers, will be F > forced to seriously re-evaluate our desire to purchase anything from Compaq > or HP in the future. >t0 > [10,000 customer names go here in small print] >n >s >eB > We as customers know what it will take for us to continue to buyI > OpenVMS/Tru64/Alpha/Itanic, and you know what they say (whomever 'they' & > are) - the customer is always right. >-J > I'll contribute some money towards a trust fund for an ad like this. Any  > other contributors out there??  D While I still believe CPQ would be better off in the long run in theI unlikely event that the merger actually materializes, I don't have enough K inside perspective to call for the heads of the entire CPQ management team.cI As a stockholder, I resent the fact that the Board elections are like oldrK Soviet elections (one candidate for each slot), but I don't have sufficientA0 information to condemn the entire sitting Board.  J Whatever, I'd toss ten bucks into the pot. Items 2, 3, and 4 make sense toI me. And I would suggest that anyone interested in setting up a trust fundID for an advertisement also invest in at least one share of CPQ stock.J "Stockholders and Customers" would have more clout than "Customers" alone.  L What's more, one share of stock is the Coveted Ducat one needs to attend theH Annual Stockholder's Meeting. (I learned that the hard way when a CPQ PRJ person denied me access to the Spring 2001 event. Yes, I did manage to getF in, but only after a copy of one of my stock certificates was faxed to	 Houston!)n   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 01:01:45 GMTa) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)e5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" ' Message-ID: <a10ahp$12q$1@joe.rice.edu>a  3 Terry C. Shannon (terryshannon@mediaone.net) wrote:oD : It would be nice, though, if Intel would see fit to issue a public : endorsement of VMS.n :uJ Why should Intel do something that Mr. Capellas and Ms. Fiorina won't do ?  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 02:06:04 GMT-4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future":> Message-ID: <g0PY7.50263$Sj1.20733142@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  6 "Jerry Leslie" <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote in message! news:a10ahp$12q$1@joe.rice.edu... 5 > Terry C. Shannon (terryshannon@mediaone.net) wrote:.F > : It would be nice, though, if Intel would see fit to issue a public > : endorsement of VMS.l > :hL > Why should Intel do something that Mr. Capellas and Ms. Fiorina won't do ? > 6 > --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)  D Touche! I cannot respond with rapier-like wit. And as an aside and aG heads-up, sources close to SKC can reveal that Compaq will display some I rapier-like wit on 29 January with the release of the first member of the- QuickBlade product family.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 00:52:36 -0500,- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>"5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" , Message-ID: <3C33F179.AB41B4A1@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:fD > It would be nice, though, if Intel would see fit to issue a public > endorsement of VMS.n  L Why should Intel do such a thing ? It wouldn't gain anything by it, it would irritate Compaq and Microsoft.  K Intel is best to stay neutral in the OS wars. Does Intel publisize the factiD that it probably has some IBM mainframes somewhere in its premises ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:06:58 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>c5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" , Message-ID: <3C33F4D6.AA696134@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote:tG > A one-time full page ad in the US national edition of the Wall Street-5 > Journal costs $167,441.28 (see pg. 11 of the .pdf).  > 1) Rejection of the merger.@6 > 2) Exit from low-end consumer commodity PC business.M > 3) Committment & Revitalization of OpenVMS / Tru64 / NSK systems, software,o > and applications.   I If you're going to go to full page ad, I would also show to the world thegM stupidity of having killed a perfectly good architecture (Alpha) just to helpuM a competitor (Intel), and of constantly helping Microsoft instead of focusingo$ on its own more profitable products.  8 Time to show the world what Compaq has been squandering.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:13:53 +0100h1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>i5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"e5 Message-ID: <3C33F6A0.B4BBDA74@swissonline.delete.ch>    Bob Ceculski wrote:: >  ...I > J > intel better be friendly to VMS ... it is their ticket into the world ofG > high end computing, not windoze!  And if they treat us vms users likerI > dogs, we will eventually leave for another vendor and hopefully by then  > freevms or linux(gag!) !!!  G As the article said, Intel has what it wants so why should it play ballc
 with anyone ?   @ It won't endorse the fact that VMS play an important part in itsH operations but then what difference does saying it or not saying it mean
 to Intel ?  E "We will leave for another vendor" ?  Hardly.  Don't they have 90% ofV the market ?  A What happens if there is no VMS to run their processing (or is ith< process control ?) on ?  That might be more interesting ....     John   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:20:56 +0100w1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> 5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"h5 Message-ID: <3C33F848.75E9BCAD@swissonline.delete.ch>9   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  >  >... >.F > Touche! I cannot respond with rapier-like wit. And as an aside and aI > heads-up, sources close to SKC can reveal that Compaq will display some K > rapier-like wit on 29 January with the release of the first member of thel > QuickBlade product family.  0 I hope you don't have this story half wrong ....     John McL   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:26:11 +1030o% From: Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au>:* Subject: Re: Too Few Servers opcom message* Message-ID: <3C33D65B.F12667F3@vsm.com.au>   Hi Joe,d  ! > How do I stop the opcom messaget >  > Message from user SYSTEM' > Event: Too Few Servers Detected from:. > N > From appearing in the operator log.  I have set        ncl> set dtss servers > required 1/ > but the system still reports too few servers.   H Other respondents have commented about configuring DTSS.  Here's anotherG method for making those messages disappear, which I worked out before Ir learned about configuring DTSS.   ? Create the file SYS$MANAGER:NET$EVENT_LOCAL.NCL which contains:h  ; ! NET$EVENT_LOCAL.NCL   User-defined EVENT DISPATCHER setupe ! J.Begg  24-Jun-1997t !tF ! We don't run a DTSS server so prevent the "Too Few Servers Detected"	 ! message C block event dispatcher outbound stream local_stream global filter -c,     ((Node, DTSS), Too Few Servers Detected) !*  M The above file will be invoked each time DECnet-Plus starts up.  To get it too take effect immediately:  
     $ mcr nclu(     NCL>@sys$manager:net$event_local.ncl     NCL>exit   Regards,  t         Jeremy Begg2  =   +---------------------------------------------------------+.=   |            VSM Software Services Pty. Ltd.              |n=   |                 http://www.vsm.com.au/                  |o=   |       "OpenVMS Systems Management & Programming"        |s=   |---------------------------------------------------------|v=   | P.O.Box 402, Walkerville, |  E-Mail:  jeremy@vsm.com.au |h=   | South Australia 5081      |   Phone:  +61 8 83592155    |o=   |---------------------------|  Mobile:  0414 422 947      |f=   |  A.C.N. 068 409 156       |     FAX:  +61 8 82231777    |u=   +---------------------------------------------------------+n   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:56:17 GMT " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>L Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was HP admits it will kill VMS if merger2 Message-ID: <BBJY7.3567$E82.10297@typhoon.bart.nl>  A My daughters use their cell phones mainly for SMS. They're almostmE surprised to see me actually talking to a it :-) SMS is Euro 0.11 perm message, talking is alot more expensive.fE Then  I explained to them that each SMS text is transmitted via a VMSt system,14 similar to what they have been using for 10 years...   Hans  < John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C33269B.AB5E41B2@swissonline.delete.ch...  >' >r# > Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:t > >rL > > If that's the case then it's only BT [and presumably Cellnet is what youE > > were looking at] that does that, and as far as I know they aren'tC SUPPOSED > > to be doing so.  > > L > > All the other mobile operators don't have minimum charges, and as I onlyD > > use my mobile for SMS and incoming calls [as a rule, emergencies	 excepted]a+ > > a UKP10 phone card will last me months.e > >  > > Steve So >  > Hi Steve,d > E > This sub-thread stated by talking about SMS and internet charges in F > Europe.  I said that SMS here was cheap here because it was popular. >vJ > Here's a quote from Swissinfo, the English-language news service here in
 > Switzerlandg >t= > "Twenty-one million short messages were sent in Switzerland 9 >  during a 24-hour period through the three mobile phonec6 >  operators Swisscom, Orange and Sunrise. This is one> >  million more text messages sent than during previous record@ >  highs. Swiss sent a total of 42 million messages over the two3 >  day (New Year's Eve and New Year's Day) period."  >e5 > And with only some minor deays at the peak periods.  >b@ > That's from a country with only about 10 or 12 million people. >' >y
 > John McLeanc   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 10:04:29 +1100 , From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>P Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger8 Message-ID: <8d473ukmain4k2k64tkr2s0bo28q3fpjps@4ax.com>  H >My USD 55/month for cable modem (unlimited) is less than 1 hour of work
 >(after tax).4  $ Seems to work around the same here .B In Sydney ( Australia ) I pay around 70 $AU / month ie : much less than an hour of work.t   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 20:03:37 +0100v& From: bds@rzg.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e+ Message-ID: <a0vli9INN12a@subds.rzg.mpg.de>e  , In article <a0vk4h$114a$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,- Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu> wrote:o, >In article <a0v555INNsn0@subds.rzg.mpg.de>,* > bds@rzg.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK) writes: >|> J >|>                                             but it is clear to me thatK >|> none of the Open Source movement as it exists now (note well: for me itsI >|> is still the Free Software movement, in the spirit Stallman set it uplK >|> in) would do so had RMS and GNU not taken that initial plunge.  I don'tiI >|> believe for a second we'd have Linux in any recognisable form had GNUt+ >|> not been there first for several years.e >eH >Ridiculous.  Ranks right up there with the claims of Ada advocates thatH >they invented "software re-usability".  We were writting and exchangingG >free software long before Stallman's tirade in 1985 (which contrary to I >what he essouses was prompted by someone refusing to pay him for work hekD >put in the public domain that later turned out to have value).  TheG >process was formalized in the form of the newsgroup mod.sources (lateruI >comp.sources.unix) by 1983, 2 years before the GNU Manifesto.  And whileoJ >we might have been lucky enough to have never seen Linux the BSD projectsH >were already moving forward, held up only by a court case who's outcome >was already known.e  @ It may make you feel good to say "ridiculous" but what you writeH actually supports my post.  I already noted the code sharing environmentG was the mainstream culture within the academic world in the 60s and 70sCG (as well as IP sharing within science since earliest times).  The pointuE was that Stallman stood up and publicly announced "this is the way we-G are going to do things henceforth; it is the way we'll do it regardlessiE of the constraints of the corporate marketplace; and this is what thegH world would look like if everyone worked this way."  I didn't see anyoneG else doing that... for all I know they may have but it never exited the A inner circles.  There were and are many free software/open sourceaF circles within academia.  The importance of GNU is that they took thisG outside, to the extent that non-insiders like me and many others became G aware of it.  Of course, Linux then went further and widened the circletF still more.  But the organisations like BSD, free VMS or what have youH are not like that, and non-insiders were and are simply unaware of their# existence, so their impact is zero.t  J >|> Convince me that the free BSD movements pre-date GNU and I might alter >|> my stance. l >t@ >A ridiculous request.  Of course they can't pre-date GNU.  They@ >didn't become possible (or necessary for that matter) until the >CSRG was terminated by UCB.  D I have no idea what any of that last bit means and it isn't relevantF anyway...  that is part of the point.  This stuff doesn't matter untilC ordinary joes can get access to it.  So Unix as such had some legalsG constraints on it.  The existence of Linux shows that they were and arehE broachable, provided one wasn't simply duplicating things.  I have no H idea of the legal sides of these things, and am aware that GNU and LinuxG "are not Unix," but beyond that it should be clear that it was possiblei6 to move ahead even considering the legalism minefield.  J >|>            But it is clear RMS's stance came out of that MIT milieu ofI >|> the late 60s/early 70s, and the attitudes of the computing world haveeJ >|> never been better than that.  Pity this stuff didn't simply sweep awayI >|> all the arrogant clods of Silicone Valley, let alone the Redmond onesa >|> who came after.  >|> F >|> GNU was around in embryonic form for a long time before Stallman's >|> original announcement(s).a >nG >The idea of sharing code and writting programs for the fun of doing iteI >may have been around, but that had and still has nothing to do with RMS.o  F But not the idea of building an industry around it people can live offE and moving it outside of the inner circles.  Without GNU, people like-A you might be well aware of this stuff.  People like me would not.r  F Perhaps people are jealous of RMS and his willingness to take the restE of the world on with this stuff, not just leaving it within the inner@ circles.   -- n cu,> Bruceh  3 drift wave turbulence:  http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/1   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 22:03:29 GMTo( From: "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)rI Message-ID: <RsLY7.210560$WW.12299765@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>l  J "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message0 news:20020101164555.32312.qmail@gacracker.org...= > On Tue, 1 Jan 2002, drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:iA > >On Tue, 01 Jan 2002 13:38:37 +1100, in comp.os.linux.advocacy,s3 > > (israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>) wrote:i > >p6 > >>On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:19:13 +0000 (UTC), drsquare" > >><nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> wrote: > >>K > >>>>If I want to try VMS, I have to buy it and then find a Vax ( about ase. > >>>>common as snowballs in the Sahara ) .... > >>>r9 > >>>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?  > >> > >>Oh there is an Alpha port.6 > >>But Alphas are about as common as camels in Aspen. > > > > >I mean, why doesn't someone write a version for common PCs? > I > What has been done is a VAX emulator for PCs called CharonVAX. Once youbL > have this up and running you can install VMS on your virtual VAX. There isH > talk of this being available through the hobbyist program again, so it will< > be possible to run VMS on a PC for free when this happens.  H I've never believed in emulators. I'd rather just use the real thing (ofH course I don't believe working with OS's is 'fun' in any way/shape/form,3 unlike many of the other whackos who respond here).   . I'd find a place to get a VAX account instead.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 22:31:35 GMTa4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)w> Message-ID: <bTLY7.50182$Sj1.20575548@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  3 "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com> wrote in messageeC news:RsLY7.210560$WW.12299765@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...  <snip> >iJ > I've never believed in emulators. I'd rather just use the real thing (ofJ > course I don't believe working with OS's is 'fun' in any way/shape/form,5 > unlike many of the other whackos who respond here).o >a0 > I'd find a place to get a VAX account instead.  - Yours for the asking at www.encompasserve.orgt   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 19:33:25 -0800c, From: schizam2001@yahoo.com (Joe  the Aroma)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)r= Message-ID: <2021ed07.0201021933.2560c0f6@posting.google.com>k  z "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message news:<bTLY7.50182$Sj1.20575548@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>...5 > "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com> wrote in messageIE > news:RsLY7.210560$WW.12299765@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...e > <snip> > >eL > > I've never believed in emulators. I'd rather just use the real thing (ofL > > course I don't believe working with OS's is 'fun' in any way/shape/form,7 > > unlike many of the other whackos who respond here).r > >l2 > > I'd find a place to get a VAX account instead. > / > Yours for the asking at www.encompasserve.org   C I already have an account through my univerity but they're ditchinge5 VMS unfortunately so... I may need that link. Thanks.n  C Actually my school hosted their webpage on VMS up until mid-October F but changed to Windows2000 unfortunately... can't wait until I need to; use the webpage and I see "hacked by chinese" or some such.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:22:29 GMTe" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)J> Message-ID: <90RY7.14866$726.5973436@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   Terry C. Shannon wrote:    > L > "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message1 > news:20020101213553.6053.qmail@gacracker.org...sF >> On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>	 >> wrote:rF >> >"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in	 > messagee4 >> >news:20020101164555.32312.qmail@gacracker.org... >> >I >> >> What has been done is a VAX emulator for PCs called CharonVAX. Once K >> >> you have this up and running you can install VMS on your virtual VAX.  >> >> Thereo > isL >> >> talk of this being available through the hobbyist program again, so itE >> >> will be possible to run VMS on a PC for free when this happens.I >> >>: >> >C >> >Apparently this already has happened, in the form of PicoVAX...  >> > >> >A >> >http://www.softresint.com/softresint/charon-vax/hobbyist.htmlt >>L >> I'd not seen any reference to that here before, and it certainly reads as > alH >> good way to get to play with the OS. Personally, I'm glad I spent the > money I >> on buying an Alpha system to run VMS on, I just wish Compaq had viewedb > such >> a setup the way I do. > L > If the marketeers and strategists at CPQ had a clue, what they would do isK > offer a free restricted VMS license to developers. Develop for free, then:K > pay for the license when you're ready to go commercial with an app you'ved( > developed with the restricted license. > 6 > But that would make way too much sense, wouldn't it? >  >  >  > < That's what Sun does on their Sun Blade 100 developer stack.L They've reduced the costs on their compilers by quite a bit, and then later L if you sell commercially you deal with licensing.  I still can't figure out 7 whether M$ had a big hand in Compaqs' problems or what.,   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:23:39 GMTt" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)i> Message-ID: <f1RY7.14867$726.5973470@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   Doc.Cypher wrote:d  L > On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:L >>"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message1 >>news:20020101213553.6053.qmail@gacracker.org...FG >>> On Tue, 01 Jan 2002, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> 
 >>> wrote:G >>> >"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote ine= >>> >message news:20020101164555.32312.qmail@gacracker.org...r >>> >sJ >>> >> What has been done is a VAX emulator for PCs called CharonVAX. OnceL >>> >> you have this up and running you can install VMS on your virtual VAX.I >>> >> There is talk of this being available through the hobbyist programpJ >>> >> again, so it will be possible to run VMS on a PC for free when this >>> >> happens.g >>> >> >>> >tD >>> >Apparently this already has happened, in the form of PicoVAX... >>> >V >>> >aB >>> >http://www.softresint.com/softresint/charon-vax/hobbyist.html >>>iJ >>> I'd not seen any reference to that here before, and it certainly readsJ >>> as a good way to get to play with the OS. Personally, I'm glad I spentI >>> the money on buying an Alpha system to run VMS on, I just wish Compaqe) >>> had viewed such a setup the way I do.  >>L >>If the marketeers and strategists at CPQ had a clue, what they would do isK >>offer a free restricted VMS license to developers. Develop for free, then K >>pay for the license when you're ready to go commercial with an app you've ( >>developed with the restricted license. >>6 >>But that would make way too much sense, wouldn't it? > L > It certainly would make more sense than a program where you can't even useF > the system for your home business without paying a serious amount of > money. > K > Of course, Compaq have proven to have no interest in the low-end for VMS.3 >  > I That's actually odd, considering that compaq sells a lot of low cost PCs. . But when M$ offers such a good deal to them...   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 05:09:49 GMT  From: Kim <kim@bite.me.spambot>eY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)t- Message-ID: <xIRY7.8890$DY1.519461@rwcrnsc54>h   Tim Llewellyn wrote:   >  >  > Joe the Aroma wrote: >  rK >> I've never believed in emulators. I'd rather just use the real thing (ofNK >> course I don't believe working with OS's is 'fun' in any way/shape/form,S6 >> unlike many of the other whackos who respond here). >> D1 >> I'd find a place to get a VAX account instead." > B > where can one get a VAX account with full priviledges then, Joe?  I Try sending a nice email to William Pedersen (pedersen@ccsscorp.com) and eC ask if he is still giving away free VMS accounts (or would make an eE exception for you if he's not). No guarantee, but worth a shot. Your lG success may hinge on how nice your email is. I know Bill_P and he is a -1 pretty frood dude. Up to his butt in VAXen too....   Kim    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 02:03:05 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)-0 Message-ID: <3C33BB09.60CC7C5C@blueyonder.co.uk>   Joe the Aroma wrote:  yJ > I've never believed in emulators. I'd rather just use the real thing (ofJ > course I don't believe working with OS's is 'fun' in any way/shape/form,5 > unlike many of the other whackos who respond here).  > 0 > I'd find a place to get a VAX account instead.  @ where can one get a vax account with full priviledges then, Joe? -- 6 Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  e  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of i! my employers or service provider.7   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 13:53:16 +1030l% From: Jeremy Begg <jeremy@vsm.com.au>oY Subject: Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a career move ) movee) Message-ID: <3C33CEA4.986DC97@vsm.com.au>e   Hi,   J I'd like to make a couple of comments about your recent remarks re OpenVMSH Hobbyist licences and DECUS.  There are good reasons why DECUS AustraliaM administers things in the way that it does, and some of these relate directlyvG to the way Digital (not Compaq) chose to implement the OpenVMS HobbyistlN licence scheme.  I'd be happy to discuss some of those reasons off-line if you wish.a  J > >Nobody has to pay real money for VMS for hobbyist use! The licenses areM > >free, just like Linux all you have to pay for is a distribution (or borrowl! > >one from your local VMS site).r; > >Try visiting http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/index.htmlt > ' > I did and looked for a download link.e >  > Instead it says:B > "In order to register for licenses, you need to be a member of a	 > DECUS."t > D > Doing this in Sydney is very much a nineteenth century experience: > E > " To join, simply view and print out the PDF-format (Adobe Acrobat) E > membership form below, fill it in, and send it to the DECUS office.nD > Upon approval of membership, you will be notified and a membership > card will be provided. "  J DECUS Australia Inc. is currently working on that process.  It is expectedJ that full on-line membership application will be available Real Soon Now. N However, to the best of my knowledge, the requirement that DECUS approves each application will continue.  E > Assuming that DECUS approve my membership,  I then have to apply too% > Compaq in writing, via snail mail :- > F > "Upon your qualification for this license and your signature on thisB >  form, Compaq Computer Corporation ("COMPAQ") will grant you the5 >  right to use the VAX OpenVMS on a single computer"n  H I don't believe the above is correct.  The mechanism in use by the DECUS' Office here in Australia is as follows:   I   - DECUS members who wish to obtain the OpenVMS Hobbyist licence package A     must contact the DECUS office (by whatever means they choose)-  I   - Once a month, the DECUS office sends the batch of requests to Compaq..  <   - Compaq responds (fairly promptly) with the licence PAKs.  3 > In addition, it markedly restricts what I can do:e > < > "Use of the Licensed Computer is ONLY FOR   NON-COMMERCIALH > USES (e.g., home use).  As such, you may not use the Licensed ComputerE > for any business purposes whatsoever, e.g., to develop applicationsc. > for resale, to do business accounting, etc." > A > So if I develop an application that turns out to be viable as anG > product, then I am stuffed. If I want to use the box at work to run aeG > simple database package then I am stuffed. This is not a problem with ) > Linux or the various BSD distributions.l  L If you are genuinely developing software for sale, join the Compaq SolutionsL Alliance.  You get hefty discounts on new hardware and free licences for all6 the software development tools you are likely to need.  J To "use the box at work to run a simple database package" you would need aJ database package.  There are *no* free database packages for OpenVMS (fromM Compaq or anyone else) unless you consider RMS a database package.  You mightt like to ask Oracle orh Intersystems about that.  G BTW, VAX and older Alpha hardware is readily available from most Compaqu
 resellers.   Regards,           Jeremy Begga+ 	OpenVMS SIG Chairman, DECUS Australia Inc.   =   +---------------------------------------------------------+j=   |            VSM Software Services Pty. Ltd.              |e=   |                 http://www.vsm.com.au/                  |o=   |       "OpenVMS Systems Management & Programming"        |p=   |---------------------------------------------------------|n=   | P.O.Box 402, Walkerville, |  E-Mail:  jeremy@vsm.com.au |a=   | South Australia 5081      |   Phone:  +61 8 83592155    | =   |---------------------------|  Mobile:  0414 422 947      | =   |  A.C.N. 068 409 156       |     FAX:  +61 8 82231777    |y=   +---------------------------------------------------------+a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:33:50 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>.V Subject: Re: VMS for hobbyists : barriers to its use. ( was:  VMS as a careermove ) )), Message-ID: <3C336EAB.CC410155@videotron.ca>   Phillip Helbig wrote:oE > On the one hand, I can understand disallowing ALL commercial use ofnI > something which is free.  OK, Linux and BSD have another model, but VMS C > has to pay the guys who write the code which makes it a good OS. o  L On the surface, this is an agreable statement. However, consider that one of; VMS's greatest weakenesses is its visibility and marketing.i  N For years, Microsoft and others tolerated a certain level of piracy because itG put its software into the hands of more people, giving its product morepM marketshare (everyone has Word, so I have to have it too) and also eventuallylB leading to the person buying an upgrade to get the latest version.  F The advantages of buying a product should be quite clear to people whoN constantly have to re-istall windows and other software: documentation and theM original distribution CD as well as some limited support for the product (foraL companies other than Microsoft who actually support the products they sell).    L I think that the hobbyist programme was a great move, however, I am not sureM what convinced Digital to allow it. It was probably sheer disinterest in VMS,iF and a way to shut the loud mouths of the pesky VMS terrorists who wereS accusing Digital of killing VMS instead of a stragegic move to start to regrow VMS.y  M It would be nice however to have some idea of the number of hobbyist licensest that are issued each year.   > On theG > other hand, there needs to be something between the pure hobbyist ando > the Fortune 500 license.  F There is something. VMS's license facility is able to have single userH licenses for instance. (or single concurrent use). There problem is thatH Compaq/Digital won't agree to price those competitively with Unix and NTG products. There is the argument that Compaq doesn't want VMS to competeiK against its "own" Microsoft products, but also that it doesn't want a largenL corporation which may have bought an unlimited C licence and pays 5 digits'sN worth or maintenance per year for the compiler to downgrade it to a single use) license and pay $99 per year for support.h  B > For years, I've been suggesting for such situations, for startupD > companies etc something like "the license costs x% of your profit;  N IBM, under Gerstner realised that its licensing for IBM mainframes was way outJ of line with the competition (if I remember correctly, the C compiler on aK mainframe costed about CAD $60,000 per year in maintenance and licence). SoWQ they instituted a "usage" fee based on the number of transactions a company made.-  L For many companies, this significantly reduced their costs. But IBM was wiseN enough to realise that it is better to lower a revenue from a customer than toN lose the customer to the competition. This is where Digital failed to realise.    N The upside of this is that Microsoft, realising it will eventually have to payM its employees with cash instead of share options, is slowly jacking up pricesyK of its products, so the discrepancy with VMS isn't as bad as it used to be.aL However, it will still take quite a long while before there is parity and by then, VMS will be dead.>   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 05:21:37 GMTi, From: "Allen Grider" <allen.grider@home.com>H Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )< Message-ID: <BTRY7.46688$fo.14652108@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>  E > Multics ( arguably a far more sophisticated and more secure os thaniG > VMS ) has been ported to the 86x platform. You can buy it as the STOPl? > operating system running on XTS-300s ( based on a Pentium 2 )l; > It has been evaluated as fulfilling B3 security criteria.oA > It is interesting that you can run Unix and DOS programs on it.r  H The XTS-300 is not a port of Multics. However, the XTS-300 borrowed manyI features from Multics. These include its security model, segmented demandeK paged virtual memory, and its use of a multi-layer ring structure isolation.6 mechanism (domains of execution in Intel terminology).  K DOS programs do not run on it. It currently provides a UNIX SysV3.2 API and@G is iBCS2 compliant. Yes, these are a little dated and we are working one updating these.7  3 Current information on the XTS-300 can be found at:.  1 http://www.getronicsgov.com/solutions/xts_300.htm'   -- T. Allen Gridere allen.grider@home.comI  9 "israel r t" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in messager2 news:dqb43uk54h8vhfehk2bg22pl6kouqacp99@4ax.com...G > On 01 Jan 2002 09:37:31 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>  > wrote:+ > >drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:-; > >> >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?i' > >> Surely it can't be that difficult.c >RF > >Well, 'common' would not be code for 'industry standard' aka x86 PCH > >would it? Well, that has been done, and it was taken out the back and > >put out of its misery.sH > >Only a few of the chips are able to support VMS properly. The x86 andJ > >its smoking, bloated brethern can not. Funny enough, the PA-RISK would,  > >or in the 32 bit ones anyway. >gE > Multics ( arguably a far more sophisticated and more secure os thanlG > VMS ) has been ported to the 86x platform. You can buy it as the STOPd? > operating system running on XTS-300s ( based on a Pentium 2 ) ; > It has been evaluated as fulfilling B3 security criteria. A > It is interesting that you can run Unix and DOS programs on it.  > C > http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/epl/entries/CSC-EPL-92-003-D.html  >uE > And yes, it is available is likely to be around for the foreseeable 	 > future.s > H > "The SASS II contract provides the Defense Intelligence Community withE > a vehicle  for the acquisition of a broad range of state-of-the artsG > TEMPEST/Zone  products and associated services.  The NSA B3 certified-E > XTS-300 and Defense Information Infrastructure (DII) Guard are alsol > available on this contract." >:   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 01:42:03 GMTe$ From: "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org> Subject: Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Error < Message-ID: <LFOY7.17187$yC.1693756@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:Aq3i+oCAzYpr@eisner.encompasserve.org...,I > In article <nWtY7.16759$yC.1602142@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>, "Ed Wilts"> <ewilts@ewilts.org> writes:p> > > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message1 > > news:+rjbybcmUhlm@eisner.encompasserve.org...>K > >> In article <a0t0gf$451$1@news1.xs4all.nl>, William <wilby98@yahoo.com>  > > writes: 7 > >> > This thread was posted several months ago. I was < > >> > curious if VMS V7.3 has become available in any other8 > >> > media besides CD. I may soon acquire a MicroVAXII/ > >> > and would like to install OpenVMS on it.  > >>G > >> As I recall, VMS is only going to be released on CD in the future.. > >>< > >> The CD-ROM drive I have on my MicroVAX II is the RRD50. > >iL > > If you don't have a CD on the MVax II, you should be able to do an imageJ > > backup of the 7.3 CD to a hard disk, carry that over, and install from that.sJ > > I just did that on a DS10 since I didn't want to watch the CD spinning forq > > longer than necessary. >p> > Will the contents of the 7.3 CD-ROM fit onto and RD54 disk ?  I Nope, but the pizza box drive shelf will will hold an RZ26 just fine :-).v( No home should be without the pizza box!   -- Ed Wilts Mounds View, MN, USA mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 21:26:49 -0600m- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: VMS V7.3 SPD Errori3 Message-ID: <Pa2rAlxmNt4A@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <LFOY7.17187$yC.1693756@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>, "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org> writes:i< > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message/ > news:Aq3i+oCAzYpr@eisner.encompasserve.org...-J >> In article <nWtY7.16759$yC.1602142@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>, "Ed Wilts" > <ewilts@ewilts.org> writes: ? >> > "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in messagee2 >> > news:+rjbybcmUhlm@eisner.encompasserve.org...L >> >> In article <a0t0gf$451$1@news1.xs4all.nl>, William <wilby98@yahoo.com> >> > writes:8 >> >> > This thread was posted several months ago. I was= >> >> > curious if VMS V7.3 has become available in any other29 >> >> > media besides CD. I may soon acquire a MicroVAXII,0 >> >> > and would like to install OpenVMS on it. >> >>tH >> >> As I recall, VMS is only going to be released on CD in the future. >> >> = >> >> The CD-ROM drive I have on my MicroVAX II is the RRD50.  >> >M >> > If you don't have a CD on the MVax II, you should be able to do an image>K >> > backup of the 7.3 CD to a hard disk, carry that over, and install from> > that. K >> > I just did that on a DS10 since I didn't want to watch the CD spinningi > forb >> > longer than necessary.  >>? >> Will the contents of the 7.3 CD-ROM fit onto and RD54 disk ?  > K > Nope, but the pizza box drive shelf will will hold an RZ26 just fine :-)./  < So what Q-Bus SCSI controller is supported for disk by VMS ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:42:04 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")8 Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ?8 Message-ID: <00A0770A.F681569B@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  h In article <d7791aa1.0201020544.49557e4e@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:} >Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KCLH1YIOHE8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...v >> Just to make it clear:s >> e% >> > The decline of VMS in education a >>   >> This is the cause >>  ! >> > has a great deal to do with n >>  2 >> > the general decline of the operating system.  >> u >> This is the effect. >> gK >> Of course, there might be some dependency in the other direction, but I oK >> think the above is what was intended (I first parsed it in the opposite t >> sense, hence this note).  >> P, >> > Students become decision-makers and, inI >> > my opinion, Compaq fail to see this. I'd like to see Compaq donating K >> > hardware and software licenses to colleges and universities, but thereaF >> > seems little hope of such radical marketing. After all, that is aK >> > long-term strategy which doesn't yield results in the current quarter.m >rP >they didn't do what IBM did, give the hardware and software to them at discountJ >or for free to keep a base of talent out there to support their stuff ... >more stupidity!  M I am at a university, and in the 1980s we were the beneficiaries of very goodaJ discounts on hardware.  Later Digital decided that we were a small enough J account that we should go through resellers, who often managed pretty good discounts from list.  I The new-ish VMS EDU license - which is modeled on the hobbyist program - oJ provides a free VMS base license. (That's single user; multi-user licensesM come through the CSLG program, which costs money, and probably costs too much.L money if you only have a couple of VMS systems.  Our site has something likeL 75 systems under CSLG, which works out pretty well.)  I used this program toE buy a "Linux-ready" DS20E at a pretty good price ($17.5k for 2 667mhzwO processors, 2GB RAM, 9GB system disk - which is just the paging/swapping device>I now) where a similarly-configured system with VMS license would have beenr $23k.     N There are some flaws in the EDU license program, but it's a step in the right I direction.  For our purposes, it made VMS Alpha systems cost the same as  ; Linux-based Alpha systems, which was a definite Good Thing.n   -- Alan   O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056-M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210sO ===============================================================================a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:43:40 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r8 Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ?, Message-ID: <3C3370F8.6FD47378@videotron.ca>  M Some time ago, I had suggested to Mr Marcello (then in charge of VMS) that hetK institute a lectures programme where Compaq would send some VMS wizzards to K various universities to give a few lectures about stuff such as Clustering,aK lock managers, file systems, system security (and how it is achieved at theeG management level by having proper mindset at the developper level) etc.b  L Such a lecture would obviously use VMS as an example since it is a leader inK those areas. It would let the students and resident teachers draw their own K conclusions about how inferior their unix is to VMS. And it would show thate VMS is still a leader.  J This would not try to sell a system to the university. Compaq would simplyK donate time and materials to help the university provide better It courses.h' (would probably be tax deductible too).   L But the greatest advantage is that it would be a way for Compaq to bring VMSJ back into the minds of the students and teachers. It would be a first stepZ towards perhaps bringing back VMS into the hands of teachers and students at universities.  N If the lectures are well received, it might even remove some of the negativityB the teachers have towards VMS and may allow Compaq to pitch VMS toN universities (again with the right discounts). I think that right now, even ifN Compaq were to donate VMS systems, the universities might now want them except perhaps for a museum.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:05:32 -0500 . From: Chuck McCrobie <mccrobie@cablespeed.com>8 Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ?. Message-ID: <3C33BC6C.AEE106F2@cablespeed.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > O > Some time ago, I had suggested to Mr Marcello (then in charge of VMS) that heoM > institute a lectures programme where Compaq would send some VMS wizzards tonM > various universities to give a few lectures about stuff such as Clustering,iM > lock managers, file systems, system security (and how it is achieved at the I > management level by having proper mindset at the developper level) etc.. > N > Such a lecture would obviously use VMS as an example since it is a leader inM > those areas. It would let the students and resident teachers draw their ownaM > conclusions about how inferior their unix is to VMS. And it would show thatb > VMS is still a leader. >   B I agree with your overall idea, but VMS a leader in file systems? H Perhaps share everything clustered file systems, but not in file systemsH in general.  Ever try to put a third party file system into VMS - it hasH to run in an ACP (single or multi-threaded is upto the coder), link intoD a driver, etc. - and that's not even considering how to get the da*nF thing mounted (with or without VMOUNT.EXE).  The overhead in number ofD lines of code to just get to use an on-disk structure is much higher% than in Unix (FreeBSD, Solaris, etc.)p  E This "installable file system" area is one that VMS shows its age andtE that I would like to see improved.  Unix bit the bullet long ago withrH the VFS layer - an object-oriented approach to installable file systems.   Chuck McCrobie   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 09:47:49 +1100-, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common har/8 Message-ID: <me373uoi9pngie1uv60okf8bfiicl1i8j4@4ax.com>  E On 02 Jan 2002 21:41:22 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>- wrote:  F >Now, unis got from DEC; the Vax, but NO edu discount, and they had toB >pay full biscuit for the OS! Now for many, the OS was a $0 gratis% >throw in to the deal. That stopped. -    How much did VMS sell for then ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 02:16:17 GMT-0 From: kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org (Charlie Ebert)Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harz7 Message-ID: <slrna37g34.c2g.kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org>h  F In article <87advwswe5.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi wrote:4 > kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org (Charlie Ebert) writes: > M >> In article <n0d43ug3tu6c6e7sndp92bi6surnmsmn4l@4ax.com>, israel r t wrote:  > D >> > One of the major advantages Unix has was that just about anyoneE >> > who does computer science is exposed to Unix ( and often only to  >> > Unix )e > E >> > However, I remember in the mid eighties, at the comp.sci dept mye? >> > account was on a unix clone ( Apollo Domain ) while at thec< >> > biomedical engineering dept my account was on a VMS box > < >> > Continuing use of VMS by educational institutions ( forE >> > educational activities and not for behind the scene accounting )n2 >> > would have helped to improve VMS's mindshare. > D >> > Why did universities abandon VMS ? Was cost ( hardware and OS )F >> > the primary factor ? How important was source code availability ? > C >> Simply put!  You had to pay big bucks for VMS and you didn't fore >> Unix. > 9 >> If they GPL'd VMS we might be running that, who knows.c > D > Go back to the end of the 70s, to when VMS shipped. You payed AT&TG > $200US, and you where set, for unis. A small extra chare to add extracF > machine perhaps, can't remember. But unix was *not* the OS of choise< > at all then! RT-11, RSTS, tops and bottoms, and a hoard of$ > others. Unix was just one of many. >t  D Geeze, in the late 80's those cat's wanted like 6,000 for their sys.      G > Now, unis got from DEC; the Vax, but NO edu discount, and they had tohC > pay full biscuit for the OS! Now for many, the OS was a $0 gratis H > throw in to the deal. That stopped. So instantly, depts looked at unixF > plus a 780. The 780 *was* price compeditive with the others.  So you@ > got Wollongong uni porting unix to ... (help...) that was thenB > reported to the 780. The BSD folk fell on the 780 like a pack ofD > starving jackels, and soon BSD 4.0a..z march across the globe. AndG > march they did. $200 vs DECs price for VMS made it a fish in a barrelnD > day. Melbourne uni ordered 12 780s in one order. They ALL ran BSD. > F > Then the folks who did EE and CS degrees went on to work for the newH > startup. So where did they get a OS? Take BSD, write whatever you needF > to get your MMU to look like a 780 pager, and you are (almost) done. > I > There where now a steady stream of compiler and OS litterates, and theys6 > ALL knew unix and C. A few knew of something else... > H > By about 82/83, the slip with the venuses, the Apollo and soon Sun andE > HP boxes, and the Jupiter cancelling, cut a big hole in DECs campusWH > profile. The Vax was almost synonymous with 'slow' and the 10/20 folks< > in some cases now hated DEC with a vengence. And still do. > F > SO DEC did the hard yards and in effect GAVE Sun and the rest of theC > unix hoard their entre into the real world. Witness that Apollo'snB > DomianOS was killed of by unix and X. (X also being a largly Vax > effort in the beginning) > H > After that, the Vax never regained its performance lead, the Alpha wasH > the first system that did that, though Omega and N-Vax went close, andD > where compeditive with their compeditors, but for lots, it was tooB > late. They where solidly Sun or HP or SGI or IBM/RS shops and it8 > needed a much bigger performance margin to shift them. > E > The other factor, is that I don't theink the Vax suceeded where DECRF > expected it too. If you look at early version, it is obvious that itG > was intended as an RSX follow on, but the group who really took to itb6 > where the RSTS people. Not sure about this though... > F > But no, it was not quick, and it was not easy, but with a decade andF > a half of steady work, DEC marketing and managment started their own2 > hanging. And provided the rope into the bargain. >   1 I was cruising thru the net and noticed OPEN VMS.s What deal is that anyway?n   -- r   Charlies   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:30:29 GMTe" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common har > Message-ID: <F7RY7.14868$726.5973556@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   israel r t wrote:r  G > On 02 Jan 2002 21:41:22 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>a > wrote: > G >>Now, unis got from DEC; the Vax, but NO edu discount, and they had toSC >>pay full biscuit for the OS! Now for many, the OS was a $0 gratis0% >>throw in to the deal. That stopped.r > " > How much did VMS sell for then ? >  > / I remember in 1987 having to pay $5000 license.e
 For a 785.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 04:38:05 GMT@" From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common hara> Message-ID: <NeRY7.14869$726.5973779@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   Paul Cooke wrote:e   > Doc. Cypher wrote: > = >>The decline of VMS in education has a great deal to do with > >>the general decline of the operating system. Students become> >>decision-makers and, in my opinion, Compaq fail to see this.@ >>I'd like to see Compaq donating hardware and software licenses> >>to colleges and universities, but there seems little hope ofA >>such radical marketing. After all, that is a long-term strategye5 >>which doesn't yield results in the current quarter.O > I > so why are Microsoft being "punished" by "donating" lots of software tob > schools??   I Because they are a monopoly for starters, and it seems to follow from an iI old catholic saying "Give me your children and they'll stay catholic for eK the rest of their life".  Which means that M$ would be biasing a whole new n= generation of kids towards the one-microsoft-way of thinking.   < > which costs them very little to actually make but they areI > trumpeting the full retail price of the stuff as if it will really hurtrH > them... There is something very wrong with this, the schools should beJ > given vouchers to spend as they wish on hardware and software. OtherwiseD > other operating systems will not get a look in at all and yet moreJ > educators and students will become brainwashed to the "Microsoft way" of > doing things.s   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 21:02:01 -0500l5 From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)AY Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common hare3 Message-ID: <a10e2p$4q3$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>p  B In article <20020101204358.B24451-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>,* Bill Gunshannon  <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote:& >On Tue, 1 Jan 2002, Neil Rieck wrote: >aM >> I'm not sure universities "ever" abandoned VMS in favor of UNIX. It's justeG >> that UNIX licenses were either free, or almost free, to universitiesa > M >I guess it's all a matter of opinion, but taking into account the differenceaJ >in the value of money, I don't think "free or almost free" applies.  I amI >the keeper of the licenses and according to ours we paid AT&T $1,200 for J >our Univerrsity License in 1987.  Proboably doesn't seem like much today,M >I think that was a meaningful amount to a small college like this back then.d >s >billy   Bill -- that was cheap...   H The cost for a SysV source license in the late '80's was in the range of 50-100k.  G Sounds like a significant discount for your folks unless you were just iD getting a deal on Edition 7 Research Unix so you could apply 4.x bsd to DEC Hardware.  F I know RT11 cost about $1k back then for Single User license from DEC.E I know $1200 looks like a lot of $$$ but it was a major discount from- commercial rates.a   Bill   Bill -- m -- mH   d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN.  Don't you wish you could still buy it now!0   bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:01:58 GMTd) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>rY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compas' Message-ID: <3C339075.5089DB3C@ev1.net>y   Rob Young wrote: > k > In article <SqIY7.220$5Y4.4513@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:i >  > >eN > > The other thing about youth and inexperience is that they often don't knowN > > that something is impossible, and so quite often pull off the impossible -% > > because they were willing to try.w > >> > F >         I would attribute that to having a "scientific bent", ratherD >         than youth.  I still make plenty of mistakes and have many> >         wrong-headed ideas, just ask those around me :-)....0 >         this pretty much explains the disease: > N > Ralph [Merkle], like us, was willing to be a fool. And the way to get to theK > top of the heap in terms of developing original research is to be a fool,uQ > because only fools keep trying. You have idea number 1, you get excited, and itIM > flops. Then you have idea number 2, you get excited, and it flops. Then you J > have idea number 99, you get excited, and it flops. Only a fool would beO > excited by the 100th idea, but it might take 100 ideas before one really paysaN > off. Unless you're foollish enough to be continually excited, you won't haveL > the motivation, you won't have the energy to carry it through. God rewards > fools. > P >         -Martin Hellman, on the process of inventing the Diffie-Hellman-Merkle >         key exchange scheme 8 >         (as reported in Simon Singh's "The Code Book") > G I have heard that when H. Ross Perot founded EDS, he made 73 cold callsoD trying to sell computer time...before he got someone willing to buy.  D Try on this quote from the great American President Calvin Coolidge:  8 "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.9 Talent will not. Nothing is more common than unsuccessfult7 men with talent. Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is  7 almost a proverb. Education will not. The world is full 5 of educated derelicts. Persistence, determination and   hard work makes the difference."   -- ,? +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |u? +-------------------------------------------------------------+l   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:40:25 -0500: From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix)Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compac. Message-ID: <pbn01a.rbe.ln@escape.shannon.net>  ' In article <3C339075.5089DB3C@ev1.net>,e+ Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:o  : > "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.; > Talent will not. Nothing is more common than unsuccessfult9 > men with talent. Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is  9 > almost a proverb. Education will not. The world is fullo7 > of educated derelicts. Persistence, determination andt" > hard work makes the difference."  J How true.  If you look at people who have "made it", this is usually true.H In fact, I have not often found I think very much of the people that our. society trumpets as being so incredibly smart.  D I know a lot of smart people that just don't have a lot of drive, orE who are not extroverted enough to get anyone's attention.  Of course,,F a good manager/leader is supposed to recognize people like that, in an ideal situation anyway.d  D A friend of mine told me this is because the really smart people areH usually bored or otherwise not interested in the "politics of ascension"> and so they don't achieve what they could.  Sounds reasonable.   -- a  H UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com   ------------------------------   Date: 02 Jan 02 12:42:27 -0800* From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>X Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compa/ Message-ID: <2360.767T1392T7624429@sky.bus.com>S  ? In article <a0u6qs$qqe$0@216.39.146.95> iking@killthewabbit.org  (Ian King) writes:  B >Ah, extremes.  As a member of the 'over 40' set, I don't think myE >thinking is crusted over; much of the technology I work with was not=E >in existence a year ago, and one of the great joys of my job is that D >I must constantly learn new things in order to remain effective and	 >current.   C As a member of the "over 40" set myself, I too still enjoy learning3B new things.  But I've gotten selective; I'll learn new things thatC are actually useful, rather than the latest fad.  For example, wheno@ it comes to networking, you'll find me working to understand theB nuts and bolts of TCP/IP, rather than figuring out which button to- push on the latest version of LookOut Excess.   G >However, dismissing the 'under 40' set is too extreme.  I consider oneeG >of my colleagues, who is very bright and has done some truly excellenteE >work; I hired him right out of college, and he has yet to reach evenaG >30.  The younger folks are often much more willing (and able!) to pullr< >the all-nighters and make possible the impossible schedule.  B We Old Farts [tm] are still capable of the occasional all-nighter.F Again, though, we've become more selective.  If it's a true emergency,E we'll dive in and make it right.  But we're less likely to do it justrC to save the ass of some PHB for whom it would have been unnecessaryaE if he knew what he was doing in the first place.  We're too likely topD ask embarrassing questions, or even (thanks to our experience) leaveG a trail of memos prior to the event warning that disaster was imminent.n  B >I find that my gray hairs balance their crisp ones quite well; inH >other words, in managing these young folks, I contribute the experienceC >they generally lack, and they power the project with that youthful, >enthusiasm.  B Used properly, it can be a wonderful combination.  It's the abuses5 that cause the youthful enthusiasm to fade over time.0  A >But I've found inflexibility and stodginess in 22 year olds, andyA >boundless imagination in 50 year olds.  Evaluating someone based17 >on a simple scalar is just not very effective.  -- Ian    Hear, hear.e   --" cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)5 Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.aD I don't read top-posted messages.  If you want me to see your reply,? appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it.l   ------------------------------   Date: 2 Jan 2002 13:17:34 -0600e+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)lY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqa3 Message-ID: <wMI2fvB5wo7C@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  i In article <SqIY7.220$5Y4.4513@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:w   > L > The other thing about youth and inexperience is that they often don't knowL > that something is impossible, and so quite often pull off the impossible -# > because they were willing to try.  >   = 	I would attribute that to having a "scientific bent", ratherA; 	than youth.  I still make plenty of mistakes and have many 6 	wrong-headed ideas, just ask those around me :-).... ' 	this pretty much explains the disease:t  M Ralph [Merkle], like us, was willing to be a fool. And the way to get to the dJ top of the heap in terms of developing original research is to be a fool, O because only fools keep trying. You have idea number 1, you get excited, and itlK flops. Then you have idea number 2, you get excited, and it flops. Then youoH have idea number 99, you get excited, and it flops. Only a fool would beM excited by the 100th idea, but it might take 100 ideas before one really pays L off. Unless you're foollish enough to be continually excited, you won't haveJ the motivation, you won't have the energy to carry it through. God rewards fools.    H 	-Martin Hellman, on the process of inventing the Diffie-Hellman-Merkle  	key exchange scheme  0 	(as reported in Simon Singh's "The Code Book")    				Robn   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 01:45:31 +0000/ From: pg_nh@sabi.Clara.co.UK (Piercarlo Grandi)pY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaq0- Message-ID: <yf3g05oxl50.fsf@home.sabi.co.UK>b  = >>> On 2 Jan 2002 02:39:30 GMT, roggblake@inamme.com () said:n  9 roggblake> On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:49:59 +1100, israel r t-- roggblake> <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:h  G >> Of course, with the new recruits, one does not have the problem with : >> mental atherosclerosis that affects so many over forty.  G That is not so much mental rigidity, it is a sense of entitlement, that D makes older survivors of the corporate jungle think ``I have done my0 bit, now I deserve a sinecure, why try harder''.  F I have however recently found the very same sense of entitlement, withE exactly the same "mental atherosclerosis", in very bright twenty yearcH olds on their first job: they work in England and have Oxbridge degrees,E which are, as as a few of them will openly boast, ``a meal ticket for  life'' in that country.e  H roggblake> There is a reason for the popular phrase "young and stupid." B roggblake> The young lack the real-world experience needed to holdC roggblake> informed opinions, make valid decisions, and/or exerciseo$ roggblake> proper judgement. [ ... ]  F Not necessarily, but often; yet it depends on the type of job they areG doing. Some jobs do not require any of those qualities; there are afterw lot lots of entry level jobs.e  G roggblake> The stability and experience of older employees makes them ar roggblake> slam-dunk.l  C Curiously there have been a few articles in BusinessWeek etc. about @ companies in the service sector no longer hiring young people asD unreliable: they now tend to hire immigrants and middle aged people,H afdter noticing that contemporary youngsters call in sick after going to a rave, etc; for example:h  H   http://WWW.Fortune.com/indexw.jhtml?channel=artcol.jhtml&doc_id=204266  G     "The biggest shift, though, is that in communities like Cos Cob--andG     affluent little place about 35 miles north of New York City that isoD     part of the more famous, more pretentious, more fashionable, andD     altogether more precious Greenwich--the idea of the first job is
     changing.i  D     Dennis Tournas, who bought the franchise in 1983, prefers not to@     hire high school students anymore. Unlike in my day, when weE     teenagers were all paragons of dependability, kids these days hogT3     the phone and cancel shifts at the last minute.   C     But then, they aren't exactly begging to bag doughnuts, anyway.tE     When the manager of the store, Jose Illescas, shows me a sheaf ofeF     applications, none are from local teenagers. And it's not just CosA     Cob. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says that the labor forcenE     participation rate for young workers is at its lowest since 1972.t  A     The rest are presumably either interning at the World Bank toeG     impress Ivy League admissions officers or simply hitting up mom ands     dad for cash."  G However most corporations try very hard to avoid hiring older folks fordC a reason that has nothing to do with younger's people enthusiam anddB lower salary expectations or older people's reliability and higherC salaries or whatever: it is to protect the career paths of existingeE employees from potential competitors. The only option then is to hire F only (young) indians, in order to ensure as much as possible that only7 internal time servers have a chance at becoming chiefs.h  B Even when this is not the policy of the HR department, in the techH industry a lot of hiring decisions have been devolved to team leaders orD other line managers, that as a rule try to hire the least (but stillD sufficiently) qualified, most malleable candidate for any vacancy in their team.k  H This avoids the possibility that new hires will outshine their bosses orG the existing employees with higher seniority on which the bosses depend 3 (and also make their personnel budget look better).   G Hiring the weakest candidate of course causes trouble in the long term,rG but it is the more affordable the higher the degree of lock in that thei company has on the customers...i  D   I read once another way of expressing the concepot; a guy that wasG   sent in to save a particularly badly performing IBM division realized0H   that thisn was due to amazingly dim management, and observed somethingB   like "first rate managers try to hire other first raters; but ifE   second raters make it into management, they will hire third raters,sD   and when the second raters retire and the tird raters get promoted9   into management in their place, trouble really begins".D  < As always, this is so common that a Dilbert cartoon applies:  E   http://WWW.Dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20011208.htmlh   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:30:48 -0500: From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix)Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqm. Message-ID: <opm01a.rbe.ln@escape.shannon.net>  1 In article <SqIY7.220$5Y4.4513@news.cpqcorp.net>,o4 Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  N > Ayup.  As we age, most people find it harder to center their life around theM > current project.   Pulling all nighters, and weeks on end where I literallyoK > lived at the office - is no longer something I do on a whim (just becauseq > the work is cool).  E Some young people with families have the same problem though, or eveneB those whose hobbies they find more important than doing their job.  L > The other thing about youth and inexperience is that they often don't knowL > that something is impossible, and so quite often pull off the impossible -# > because they were willing to try.o  : Hmmmm... marketing people must be eternally youthful... ;)  G Really though, I find that young people and people that think like that'D in business often try the impossible when it really is all to often.  D I think trying the impossible and labeling everything impossible areA caused by the same thing: dumb decisions.  Youth and old age havey no corner on those markets.i       --    H UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:56:45 +0100n( From: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaq & Message-ID: <3C33902D.1EB89E83@gmx.de>   "Richard C. Steiner" schrieb:hJ > Even some of us younguns know what it is to use a keypunch, count clocksK > in the assembly routines we're trying to optimize, and write code that isdF > intended to be maintainable, not a demonstration of cute techniques.  D Sometimes I think too many old-timers dismiss a lot of new things as; "cute techniques", and don't take a second look. During thehA specification phase of our last project, I proposed several "new"rH techniques (even younger than I am ;-), like a fractional-N-PLL, and wasE turned down by both customer and our analog "chief designer", because D they all didn't really know what I was talking about (and instead ofD asking Google or a book, they said that straight to me ;-), and then6 wanted to be on the "save side" of their "experience".  D On the other hand, these people use recent versions of Word to writeF their documents, instead of insisting in proven TeXnology here (like IF do), and apparently dismiss it as another "cute new technique". People4 who don't know Don Knuth aren't worth to argue with.  G "Experience is like a light on your back, lighting the way behind you."o+ (alleged to Confuzius, though I doubt that)k  
 Beware of:  G * People who claim there hasn't been anything worth to look at inventedxG in the last 20 years, and that continuing the way it was done back then  is the only right one.  : * People who - now in a higher position - leave the actualD implementation (as sort of "dirt work") to newbies, but request that. their clean-desk decisions are to be followed.   and on the other sides  F * People who think that the sourcerer's stone was found just recently,< and everything before can - if anything - turn gold to dirt.  H * People who think that having played computer games to excess qualifies as "computer expert".    -- p Bernd Paysan7 "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"  http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 21:50:41 +0000i% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>o! Subject: Re: [Q]LAT QIO interfacef' Message-ID: <3C3380B1.9FA38516@iee.org>o   Hiroyuki Tanaka wrote:* > Where can I find information on the MOP  > interface for QIO?   If you look at  1  http://208.190.133.201/decimages/moremanuals.htmn* and pick up the DEMNA manual (EK-DEMNA-UG)( and look in Appendix A (p 96 of the pdf)% you will find a program that connectse" to a node via MOP Console Carrier.  " I don't think it is DEMNA-specific$ and I think it could be considerably% improved. In fact, when last I poppede) over to www.dnpg.com it seemed to me thato# they had improved it, called it TSM % and gave it away, seemingly for free.e   Antonior   --     ---------------I- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.005 ************************