/ INFO-VAX	Fri, 04 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 7       Contents: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS/ AMDS not recognising that there is a swap file. 3 Re: AMDS not recognising that there is a swap file. K BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC > Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the Bugcheck during shadow copy.  Re: Bugcheck during shadow copy.+ Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media? : Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT Re: Compaq IT forum  Re: Compaq IT forum F Re: Compaq support for OpenVMS VAX licenses on the CHARON-VAX emulatorF Re: Compaq support for OpenVMS VAX licenses on the CHARON-VAX emulator- Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" * Re: Congratulations for the festive season* Re: Congratulations for the festive season; Re: CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again. ; Re: CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again.  Re: DEC is DEAD 9 Re: decnet load/thruput test command (THANKYOU (dtsend)?) ! Re: EISA conf util for download ?  Re: Emulation...
 Go Big Red!!! 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V?0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds MSCP serving 101 question  Re: MSCP serving 101 question  Re: MSCP serving 101 question  Re: MSCP serving 101 question " Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons" Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons" Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons" Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons" Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons" Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons" Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons" Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons, Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up!, Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up!, Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up!, Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up! Re: OpenVMS : PIPE problem Re: OpenVMS : PIPE problem Re: OpenVMS : PIPE problem Re: OpenVMS : PIPE problem Re: OpenVMS : PIPE problemP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demisP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demisP Re: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise ofP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The    demise ofP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise of P Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co TCPIP: SHOW HOST problem, Terraserver ( was Re: The demise of compaq ) Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq Re: The demise of compaq/ Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / RE: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs , Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"! TSM Installation Problem on Alpha % Re: TSM Installation Problem on Alpha % Re: TSM Installation Problem on Alpha  Re: TT devices missing?  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if   merger   suceP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceedsP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) ? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )  VMS on Nuclear Applications  VT330/340 help?  Re: VT330/340 help?  What happened to marketing ?/ Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? P Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common harP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compaP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compaP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compaP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaq  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:25:00 +0000 4 From: Andrew Swallow <andrew.swallow@baesystems.com>% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS . Message-ID: <3C34B00C.A25FEE85@baesystems.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > K > Compatable with what?  Windows?  Sure, let me know when MS stops changing / > things on a whim for each new release. [snip]   5 VMS is no longer a first computer system.  New users  1 will have been using Windows, MAC or Linux.  The  : advanced functions can be different but not the functions  they use several times an hour.  --  7 _______________________________________________________ + Andrew Swallow (7605) 2225   Cowes site, UK  andrew.swallow@baesystems.com    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:10:50 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS 1 Message-ID: <aZ2Z7.266$5Y4.5771@news.cpqcorp.net>   I Well, as far as I know, VMS uses the same basic window system as Linux --  X11.  I Sure, LINUX's version of X11 is xFree86, but it is a recent descendent of I X11R6 - which is the UNIX industry standard.  It typically runs Gnome (or H perhaps KDE) - but Gnome doesn't really have anything to do with API's -> Gnome applications tend to use GTK+ which is really a freewareI implementation of Motif (and Motif applications will run on it) plus some K new functions... but there is already a free GTK+ implementation for VMS so  that doesn't matter anyway.    So.   G Windows isn't an option.  MS won't license it, or make *all* it's API's I public.  It is also a moving target.  Emulations (like Bristol - softwin, L etc) haven't made any significant headway with users (who indicate it is too expensive).   " The MAC certainly isn't an option.  I Gnome is the only feasible alternative "desktop" environment.  But a vast L majority of non-LINUX UNIX code is really Motif (not GTK+), and CDE is stillK on probably most UNIX desktops - so it isn't like we are all alone out here H with a VMS-only desktop environment and graphical programming interface.L But I *will* agree that I believe that Gnome is the future for UNIX desktops over the next couple years.   L The largest single problem with VMS and X11/GTK/Gnome applications isn't theL GUI or the graphics API, but the lack of UNIX file semantics (which is fixedI in COE, and soon in the mainline), and the lack of fork(), select() and a < handful of other UNIX functions - not "graphics" interfaces.  L In any case, since you include Linux in your list - I expect few Linux usersH use the graphics interfaces to the system, but like most UNIX (and VMS!)B users - use the GUI as a multi-window terminal to a character cell
 interface.  L Heck, except when I was debugging some stuff *I* never used the CDE graphicsL interfaces for looking at files, and doing common file operations.  And it's' pretty much standard on all UNIX boxes.       E Andrew Swallow wrote in message <3C34B00C.A25FEE85@baesystems.com>...  >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  >>L >> Compatable with what?  Windows?  Sure, let me know when MS stops changing0 >> things on a whim for each new release. [snip] > 5 >VMS is no longer a first computer system.  New users 1 >will have been using Windows, MAC or Linux.  The : >advanced functions can be different but not the functions  >they use several times an hour. >-- 8 >_______________________________________________________, >Andrew Swallow (7605) 2225   Cowes site, UK >andrew.swallow@baesystems.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:28:36 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS , Message-ID: <3C34DB0E.1833AFF7@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:I > Windows isn't an option.  MS won't license it, or make *all* it's API's  > $ > The MAC certainly isn't an option.  M Why is the MAC not an option ? Now that they have made their GUI separate and L run on top of a unix, shouldn't you be able to get the MAC user interface on VMS ?   K Intel might even pay you to do it. If a VMS kernel running MAC applications I were to become reality, it would further help the struggling IA64 against N established players like Power. And it would make Compaq more "neutral" in the9 OS wars since it would sell both MAC and Windows systems.   N And before you critizise the MAC, the MAC has a market share that VMS can only  dream of (or perhaps reminisce).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 23:44:55 +0000 1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk> 8 Subject: AMDS not recognising that there is a swap file.6 Message-ID: <3C34ECF7.34147D58@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  = This may have been discussed before, but I'm not as active in  comp.os.vms as I once was....   G Environment :  DEC 3000 model 600 workstation, OpenVMS Alpha v7.3, AMDS  v7.3 System disk is an RZ29B.G Page and swap files both reside in SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SYS0.SYSEXE] as shown  in a show mem/files display :    $ sh mem/files@               System Memory Resources on  3-JAN-2002 23:37:57.41  G Swap File Usage (8KB pages):                   Index        Free         Size*   DISK$AXPVMS062:[SYS0.SYSEXE]SWAPFILE.SYSG                                                    1        1504         1504  G Paging File Usage (8KB pages):                 Index        Free         Size*   DISK$AXPVMS062:[SYS0.SYSEXE]PAGEFILE.SYSF                                                  254       20992       20992 G   Total committed paging file usage:                                     8220 $     G AMDS on ths other hand belives that there is no swap file installed and F always displays the event "NOSWFL" for this node.  Trying to make sure4 that the swap file is mapped using MC SYSGEN INSTALLH SYS$SYSTEM:SWAPFILE.SYS/SWAP yields the error that the file is currently locked by another user :  0 $ MC SYSGEN INSTALL SYS$SYSTEM:SWAPFILE.SYS/SWAPD %SYSGEN-W-OPENIN, error opening SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]SWAPFILE.SYS; as input 1 -RMS-E-FLK, file currently locked by another user   A Any ideas whether this behaviour is all to be expected or whether , there's something specifically wrong here???   Steve. --  G "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent like E a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath. A Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'" % 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 00:23:16 -0000; From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@computershare.co.uk> < Subject: Re: AMDS not recognising that there is a swap file.@ Message-ID: <1010103804.277.0.nnrp-02.c1edba74@news.demon.co.uk>  	 Hi Steve,    Nice to hear from an old voice.   K Firstly, I think it is right the swapfile is locked. I believe a channel is I deliberately opened at boot time to prevent "accidents". As you know, the 2 way to get rid of these is to rename reboot etc...  L I do think the size of the swapfile is small and this may have some bearing.  D And uhmm, the obvious which version of amds, there have been patches  > "Steve Reece" <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk> wrote in message0 news:3C34ECF7.34147D58@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk...? > This may have been discussed before, but I'm not as active in  > comp.os.vms as I once was....  > I > Environment :  DEC 3000 model 600 workstation, OpenVMS Alpha v7.3, AMDS  > v7.3 > System disk is an RZ29B.I > Page and swap files both reside in SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SYS0.SYSEXE] as shown  > in a show mem/files display :  >  > $ sh mem/filesB >               System Memory Resources on  3-JAN-2002 23:37:57.41 > B > Swap File Usage (8KB pages):                   Index        Free > Size, >   DISK$AXPVMS062:[SYS0.SYSEXE]SWAPFILE.SYSB >                                                    1        1504 > 1504 > B > Paging File Usage (8KB pages):                 Index        Free > Size, >   DISK$AXPVMS062:[SYS0.SYSEXE]PAGEFILE.SYSB >                                                  254       20992 > 20992 & >   Total committed paging file usage: > 8220 > $  >  > I > AMDS on ths other hand belives that there is no swap file installed and H > always displays the event "NOSWFL" for this node.  Trying to make sure6 > that the swap file is mapped using MC SYSGEN INSTALLJ > SYS$SYSTEM:SWAPFILE.SYS/SWAP yields the error that the file is currently > locked by another user : >i2 > $ MC SYSGEN INSTALL SYS$SYSTEM:SWAPFILE.SYS/SWAPF > %SYSGEN-W-OPENIN, error opening SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]SWAPFILE.SYS; as > inputd3 > -RMS-E-FLK, file currently locked by another userg > C > Any ideas whether this behaviour is all to be expected or whethere. > there's something specifically wrong here??? >  > Steve. > --I > "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent likerG > a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath.sC > Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'"t% > Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"R   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:55:40 GMTtG From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP>fT Subject: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <0H2Z7.2548$cD4.5034@www.newsranger.com>  K On Thu, 03 Jan 02 09:34:42 GMT, in article <a11g1s$1s3$2@bob.news.rcn.net>,/ jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >I >In article L ><Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,0 >   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:# >>On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote: F >>> > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the proper >>> > word here...E >>>    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before BLISS-36).  >>H >>Only people who can't program in any language would be so stupid as to- >>prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language.  >>L >>BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly language.  But on the PDP-10, >>BLISS was a complete waste.r >w" >And made den mothers very cranky. >! >/BAH  >t( >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.  G [Since I have left the cross-post to alt.sys.pdp10 in, I should mentioncG that I am speaking from the viewpoint of a VMS person, and I have nevera used a PDP-10.]r  G Having seen many pro _and con_ BLISS comments over the years I have noweA become interested in understanding what attributes of BLISS cause ! such firm feelings on both sides.e  H Note that I have never written a program in BLISS, but I am aware of theH general syntax of BLISS-32. I do have experience in a range of languagesG however (from Pascal type languages, to C/Perl, to assembly languages), . so comparisons to other languages are welcome.  K I should also comment that, since this does seem to inspire strong feelingscI for some reason, I am interested in the _facts_ and not religious fanatic  type responses. :-) :-)e   Simon.   -- w@ Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFPK In the task of removing Microsoft from the marketplace, I have discovered afE truly remarkable plan, but this signature is too small to contain it.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:20:09 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>eX Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <V53Z7.267$5Y4.5736@news.cpqcorp.net>i  J Simon Clubley wrote in message <0H2Z7.2548$cD4.5034@www.newsranger.com>...L >On Thu, 03 Jan 02 09:34:42 GMT, in article <a11g1s$1s3$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:e >> >>In articleL >><Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> ,a1 >>   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:a$ >>>On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:G >>>> > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the properw >>>> > word here...bF >>>>    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before BLISS-36). >>>sI >>>Only people who can't program in any language would be so stupid as toq. >>>prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language. >>>pE >>>BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly language.  But on thep PDP-10,r >>>BLISS was a complete waste. >># >>And made den mothers very cranky.g >> >>/BAH >>) >>Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.p >nH >[Since I have left the cross-post to alt.sys.pdp10 in, I should mentionH >that I am speaking from the viewpoint of a VMS person, and I have never >used a PDP-10.] > H >Having seen many pro _and con_ BLISS comments over the years I have nowB >become interested in understanding what attributes of BLISS cause" >such firm feelings on both sides. > I >Note that I have never written a program in BLISS, but I am aware of thenI >general syntax of BLISS-32. I do have experience in a range of languagesxH >however (from Pascal type languages, to C/Perl, to assembly languages),/ >so comparisons to other languages are welcome.e >vL >I should also comment that, since this does seem to inspire strong feelingsJ >for some reason, I am interested in the _facts_ and not religious fanatic >type responses. :-) :-) >v    H Just religion.  Larry will tell you that Ada is the best language.  UNIXI hacks will tell you C.  The kiddies will tell you JAVA.  I'm sure someone  still loves RPG-II.i  F BLISS was something out of Carnegie Mellon that attempted to provide aL language that was suitable for writing system level code.  It was a HLL, butI had semantics that would lend itself well to a high degree of control forr the generated code.e  J The early VMS developers jumped on it as a way to write much of the kernelI code for VMS - as opposed to writing it in Macro-32.  The language itself G never caught on.  It's kind of a strange language - it is an expressionmL language, even though most people write it as a statement oriented language.H The often complained about attribute is the "." dot indirection operatorF (you need to specify that you want the contents of a location, not the address of the location).   L I once spent a few years writing a lot of BLISS - but I now only touch it to. bugfix things.  Most new code is written in C.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 15:44:50 -0500o* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>X Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC) Message-ID: <3C34C2C2.4070807@compaq.com>    Simon Clubley wrote:    M > I should also comment that, since this does seem to inspire strong feelings:K > for some reason, I am interested in the _facts_ and not religious fanatics > type responses. :-) :-)  >  > Simon. >  >   I Let me check around.  There was a "History of BLISS" paper being written uH for a journal last year.  I'm not sure if it ever was published or not. J   I'll see if I can get a copy and post it (without violating copyrights).  H As a BLISS programmer for 18 years, there are things I love about BLISS E and things I hate about BLISS.  There are features that I use daily, iH others I've never used.  Probably the most understated feature of BLISS I is the preprocessor.  Most C programers have to rely on (g)awk, perl, or RG python to do complex preprocessor and "token generation" (ie, build .h eH files/structs/etc. from a table input) in their makefile outside of the F C compiler.  You can do that all in BLISS.  The preprocessor is built F into the language unlike cpp which has no awareness of the program or  language (give or take).   -- r John ReaganS' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaderm   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:37:08 +0000 % From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  ' Message-ID: <3C34C0F4.4DE49D6C@iee.org>    Simon Clubley wrote:  I > Having seen many pro _and con_ BLISS comments over the years I have nowmC > become interested in understanding what attributes of BLISS causeh# > such firm feelings on both sides.i  - It's a programming language. That seems to bei/ enough to make people care very much. Same withn- editors (and operating systems too, it would e	 seem ...)e   Antoniou   -- i   ---------------a- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgs   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 17:51:08 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>-Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC lV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031728530.20229-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  * On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:L > The early VMS developers jumped on it as a way to write much of the kernel6 > code for VMS - as opposed to writing it in Macro-32.  J Writing VMS in an HLL was the right idea.  Using BLISS was not.  No wonder9 Cutler jumped at the chance to reinvent VMS in C with NT.f  7 > It's kind of a strange language - it is an expressionrN > language, even though most people write it as a statement oriented language.   A wart, to say the least.U  J > The often complained about attribute is the "." dot indirection operatorH > (you need to specify that you want the contents of a location, not the > address of the location).m  A This one thing is the cause of *many* bugs.  Perhaps modern BLISSnG compilers are different, but the older compilers did not type-check forLG this kind of mismatch.  Not to mention the fact that "." is very subtlecH on listings from old lineprinters.  Especially DEC lineprinters printing on recycled paper.  J Monadic "&" really isn't used all that frequently in C, yet in BLISS it isG the default.  Everything is a pointer in BLISS.  So you're always usingiI one additional level of pointer reference in BLISS than you would in yourn C code.t  B If I remember correctly, assignment was underscore.  Another wart,D assuming that the world is still Model 35 Teletypes with 1963 ASCII.H Also, you didn't use the dot on the left side of assignments.  Hence you- wrote "X_.Y;" for "x = y;", yet another wart.d  0 Ugh, I'm getting nauseated remembering all that.  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:52:43 GMTK" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for theS2 Message-ID: <vw3Z7.3826$E82.11176@typhoon.bart.nl>   Nor a Burroughs B1700a6 Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote in messageL news:Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021815500.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.ED U...# > On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote: B > >    I don't care what OS you run, nothing "gets between" an add1 > >    instruction and the CPU that's running it.c >f? > Ah, the ignorance of youth.  He's never heard of an IBM 1620.g >h > -- Mark -- > ! > http://staff.washington.edu/mrcnH > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:01:28 -0500o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>eG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thes, Message-ID: <3C34C6A8.10A17F6D@videotron.ca>   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:@ > >Ah, the ignorance of youth.  He's never heard of an IBM 1620. > ! > <grin>  Do you think he'll ask?b   Isn't that a printer ?  N What were those big band printers with the motor that opened their covers thatJ had the same finish/style as the last batch of card readers IBM made ? ( I! forgot the number of the device).s  I They used those for students at the university, and I remember once smokee* coming out of the printer, it was a hoot !   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 00:42:27 GMT_( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the 2 Message-ID: <a12tpj$110a$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  V In article <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021815500.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,- Mark Crispin  <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:3" >On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:A >>    I don't care what OS you run, nothing "gets between" an add*0 >>    instruction and the CPU that's running it.  > >Ah, the ignorance of youth.  He's never heard of an IBM 1620.  J What a coincidence. I was just unpacking my boxes after an office move andK found a copy of Leeson and Dimitry, _Basic Programming Concepts and the IBMM 1620 Computer_.M   -- i@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)w   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 17:00:30 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>tG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the-V Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031656440.20229-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  # On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, JF Mezei wrote:oB > > >Ah, the ignorance of youth.  He's never heard of an IBM 1620.# > > <grin>  Do you think he'll ask?v > Isn't that a printer ?  C Nope.  It's a computer.  It was also called the CADET.  CADET is an G acronym.  "A" was add.  Can you guess what the rest was, and why it wasm called that?  H [To the other people who know: please, don't spill the beans yet.  Let's8 see if the young'uns can come up with it by themselves.]  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc2F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 11:28:48 -0700 + From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for theI, Message-ID: <3C34A2E0.712960B4@jetnet.ab.ca>   Mark Crispin wrote:E  E > Nope.  It's a computer.  It was also called the CADET.  CADET is an I > acronym.  "A" was add.  Can you guess what the rest was, and why it was  > called that? > J > [To the other people who know: please, don't spill the beans yet.  Let's: > see if the young'uns can come up with it by themselves.]  H I don't see how other than pure luck. I lot of people now days would notF know a punched card even if they saw one. Mind you sometimes you stillG see a magnetic tape drive used as a computer in a odd movie or TV show.S -- -% Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *S+ www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.htmle   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 06:41:11 -0000/ From: "Adam Price" <adam+usenet@pappnase.co.uk> G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the C Message-ID: <a8cZ7.45084$ll6.6639388@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>t  _ "Ben Franchuk" <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote in message news:3C34A2E0.712960B4@jetnet.ab.ca...  > Mark Crispin wrote:" >eG > > Nope.  It's a computer.  It was also called the CADET.  CADET is an4K > > acronym.  "A" was add.  Can you guess what the rest was, and why it wase > > called that? > >AL > > [To the other people who know: please, don't spill the beans yet.  Let's< > > see if the young'uns can come up with it by themselves.] >fJ > I don't see how other than pure luck. I lot of people now days would notH > know a punched card even if they saw one. Mind you sometimes you stillI > see a magnetic tape drive used as a computer in a odd movie or TV show..C Other than pure luck, there's always google. It was worth the look.m Adam   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:15:30 +0100s9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>m% Subject: Bugcheck during shadow copy.n' Message-ID: <3C34BBE2.79924C71@aaa.com>s   Hi.b2 As I sad in an earlier post, I'm currently setting4 up my DEC 2000 model 300 system with VMS 7.3. I just3 enabled shadowning of the system disk and rebooted.y3 All looks well after reboot. The shadow copy startss% after a few minutes delay efter boot.h    
 $ sh dev d  F Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free 	 Trans Mnt F  Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks	 Count CntdH DSA10:                  Mounted              0  ALPHASYS       2778732   270   1 F $1$DKA0:      (OSSBY1)  ShadowCopying        0  (copy trgt DSA10:   0% copied)sB $1$DKB0:      (OSSBY1)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA10:) $ 8 %%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM   3-JAN-2002 20:17:01.78  %%%%%%%%%%%" Message from user SYSTEM on OSSBY1D %SHADOW_SERVER-I-SSRVINICPY, initiating copy operation on _DSA10: at LBN: 0, I/OM'  size: 127 blocks, ID number: 03000062.s   $   H But after a while, efter aprox 53-54% of the copy, the following happens :y    A **** OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System V7.3     - BUGCHECK ****L  > The system then hangs until either reset on the front panel or power recycling.  > DKA0 and DKB0 are two RZ28M in two different BA350 boxes, each7 connected to a AHA-1740 SCSI controller in the CPU box.:  D I *did* have some trouble getting the DKA-box running, it shares theF SCSI bus with the internal devices. Had to try different settings with terminators and such.   C Well, I'm stuck and if nothing happens I'l run it without shadowinga of the system disk.e   Jan-Erik Sderholm.o   PS.rB I do have the dec-axpvms-vms73_update-v1000--4 patch, but it's notB installed yet. It might be a god idea to do that also. There seemsC to be a number of fixes to the shadowing subsystem in that patch...- DS.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 01:09:02 +0100b9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>u) Subject: Re: Bugcheck during shadow copy.i' Message-ID: <3C34F29E.5BAE3596@aaa.com>e  
 Hi again ! (In reply to myself...)r< I'v now installed the dec-axpvms-vms73_update-v1000--4 patch3 and the shadow copy of the system disk now went OK.:   Jan-Erik Sderholm.i   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:1 >  [snip]4 > But after a while, efter aprox 53-54% of the copy, > the following happens :  > C > **** OpenVMS (TM) Alpha Operating System V7.3     - BUGCHECK ****G >l   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 16:24:39 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>p4 Subject: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media?$ Message-ID: <3c34cc2b$1@news.si.com>  J I am trying to write a tape on an Exabyte 8505 (aka TZ15) that can be readK by an Exabyte 8200.  I'm using OpenVMS VAX 7.2.  Can it be done?  So far myoL experiments have not panned out.  Neither the /DENSITY nor the /MEDIA_FORMATL qualifiers on the INITIALIZE and MOUNT commands have had any effect.  I alsoH wrote a tape on the 8200 and the 8505 couldn't read it.  Suggestions are welcome. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comhA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comS= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevente< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 04 Jan 2002 01:54:51 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>C Subject: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DATt0 Message-ID: <87pu4rpbf8.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  0 SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) writes:  + > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote in messagei1 > news:<s58nInp3LAv3@eisner.encompasserve.org>...k  r> > Thanks for your detailed answers! But I have more questions:  aC > Is there a downside to making tapes with /MEDIA=COMPACTION exceptaD > for the obvious fact that you must have a compaction-able drive to > read it back with?   Not that I have ever heard.n  gA > > In article <343f30ae.0112271609.3966cb80@posting.google.com>,s4 > > SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) writes:  VD > > > Is there any need to use redundancy groups in BACKUP save setsD > > > written to 4mm DAT tapes (DDS-2) on TLZ07-VA and TZL07-DA tapeC > > > drives? Doesn't the drive write its own redundant data to thec@ > > > tape for future error recovery purposes? And is /CRC still
 > > > needed?i  oF > > Redundancy groups are arguably a waste of time.  If you get a tapeD > > read error on a modern tape drive, chances are that you won't beB > > able to read past the problem anyway.  The tape drive does useC > > ECC, but that's not the same thing as writing an XOR of each 106D > > blocks as the 11th.  On the other hand, the overhead is only 10%A > > (by default).  If you have room on your tape and time in yourp( > > backup schedule, leave it turned on.  m- > How is ECC different from redundacy groups?w  C ECC is carried in the data blocks, the redundancy block follows it.B   D > > /CRC is still needed.  And there are folks here who can give youB > > the horror stories.  All the drive-generated CRC can verify is@ > > that the data coming from the tape matches the data that wasB > > originally written to the tape.  It can't verify that the dataC > > that makes it back to the operating system matches the originaliF > > data that came from the operating system.  Cables, controllers and1 > > device drivers in the middle are the concern.a  eA > How is data integrity protected when copying files from disk tonF > disk?  I mean the main cause for tape problems, I assume, would be aB > problem with the tape (since writing to and reading from tape isE > more likely to fail than the same with a disk, of course), which isnF > why VMS BACKUP implements /GROUP and /CRC. But you mention here thatE > using BACKUP's CRC also verifies data integrity from source to tape E > to a restore destination, including cables, etc. Is there something A > similar going on with disk-to-disk copying? I mean, why be more C > careful checking for problems due to bad cables, controllers, and E > device drivers for tapes than for disks? Or are there already other 5 > data integrity measures taken with writing to disk?f  E There are *two* CRCs in each backup block. One on the header, that is ; always there, and a data CRC that can be dropped by /NOCRC.n   A > And when would you use COPY/WRITE_CHECK or COPY/READ_CHECK, foriB > example? If VMS is being used for life support, I guess I'd wantE > them turned on. But is there any other purpose for them? I guess if D > you have a suspicious disk. But these qualifiers are turned off by1 > default, implying they are not normally needed.o  A Never used them, but if I had apps that I really carred about, it  is really easy to add them.w  iB > And how does block revectoring work? How does the controller, or& > whatever, know a block is going bad?  F This is 'device dependant' :( But, with good MSCP drives.. They do not< do full error correction normally. Errors that are below the@ 'expected' level are just corrected and ignorred. Then you reachD errors that can be corrected, but are errors. They are recovered, byD calling in the full correction process if needed, to a pre-allocatedA space on the drive. Another block is picked (on the same track ifeF possible, a 'Primary Replacement') and the data copied to it *and readC back* If it passes, the header is updated with the block address ofnA the new block, than a 'normall' read is done to check that all is D well.  If the data is not fully recovered, a flag is set to indicateE that, so you will not have silent corruption. Remember, you *MUST* beI@ able to have a powerfail in the middle of this, and it all work.   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.C@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 13:42:57 -0800r. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)C Subject: Re: Compaction, Compression, BACKUP/GROUP/CRC with 4mm DAT = Message-ID: <343f30ae.0201031342.6a3cefa7@posting.google.com>-   "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@computershare.co.uk> wrote in message news:<1009999008.27050.0.nnrp-14.c1edba74@news.demon.co.uk>...o  K > Actually I am not sure that /CRC buys you anything on compression either.CN > The crc b;ock is done prior to compression, and hence can be compressed intoI > the same physical "block" on the tape. If the block is bad your stuffedt* > anyway, if it is good you don't need it.  : That reminds me of what someone once said about exercise:   H "If you're sick, you can't do it. If you're healthy, you don't need it!"     Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmand afeldman ^&^&^ gfigroup.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:24:21 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>J Subject: Re: Compaq IT forum, Message-ID: <3C34CC03.1C901965@videotron.ca>   James Gessling wrote:sF > I registered for the one in California (I live nearby)  I thought it > would be amusingD > to hear what they have to say. It's an all day affair.  If you are > interested, here's the > link:h    K You are right about amusement. I think that at this point in time, anythingfK Compaq says has very little value. Not only because of the upcoming weddinghN (or non wedding) with Carly's family, but also because it is premature to knowG what Compaq will be like in 2-3 years, and it is premature to know whatn: Intel's IA64's chips will be like 2-3 years down the road.  I If Compaq doesn't want to put itself out of business, it should either go M through the wedding and call it off ASAP so that it can get on with fixing ofs+ the damage it caused on June 25 and beyond.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 23:13:26 GMTf* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Compaq IT forumC Message-ID: <qA5Z7.142629$m05.12416043@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>m  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C34CC03.1C901965@videotron.ca...   ...n   > it is premature to know what< > Intel's IA64's chips will be like 2-3 years down the road.  L No, we have an *excellent* idea of what Itanic will be like 2 - 3 years fromC now (assuming that it still exists as a product then):  Madison andnL Deerfield.  It's what it might look like in 3 - 5 years that's questionable.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:16:09 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>gO Subject: Re: Compaq support for OpenVMS VAX licenses on the CHARON-VAX emulatort, Message-ID: <3C34CA18.B7D302F3@videotron.ca>   Sue Skonetski wrote:; > o QM-6KQAA-AA: VAX to CHARON-VAX for OpenVMS Alpha - $500p > @ > o QM-6T7AA-AA: VAX to CHARON-VAX for Windows and Linux - $1000  M Does this mean that if I want to transfer an existing VMS license on a VMS toBN a machine that emulates a vax on an 8086, Compaq wants USD $1000 to *transfer*+ the licence for which I have already paid ?u  $ Or is that for a brand new licence ?    L Also, and this is technical, does Charron Vax actually run as an applicationN over windows and/or linux, or does it have its own kernel without any need for windows or linux ?  ; > o QM-6KRAA-AA: VAX to CHARON-VAX for OpenVMS Alpha - $500C? > o QM-6T8AA-AA: VAX to CHARON-VAX for Windows and Linux - $100e  M Interesting that for VMS, Compaq gives you a break if you run the emulator onrL an alpha, but for layered products, they charge more if you run the products on an alpha.    E > Compaq Services will support the Compaq OpenVMS VAX software on theM5 > CHARON-VAX emulator running on Compaq systems only.e  N While it is cool that Compaq is acknowledging this and supporting it, I have aM feeling that the "running on Compaq systems only" is a harbinger of things to H come. Since VMS, through the Charron-VAX emulator, now runs on "industryK standard hardware" as per Compaq's definition of "industry standard",  theytJ are in fact defeating this "industry standard" by limiting support only to+ their own systems, making them proprietary.e    I Also interesting that in the list of supported applications, they includeeL ALL-IN-1 and Mailbus, but they exclude Message Router, the one key messagingJ product that Digital did not port to Alpha forcing customers to retain VAXL hardware in their shops. This would be a natural since companies might stillK have the need to run that one application that remains unavailable on AlphaeL and using the emulator for it would be the only option now that VAXes are no longer availble from Compaq.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 20:25:17 -05000 From: "Rob L Lyons" <rob.lyons@resilientsys.com>O Subject: Re: Compaq support for OpenVMS VAX licenses on the CHARON-VAX emulatore+ Message-ID: <a1307v$dv1$1@bob.news.rcn.net>c  Q I've been getting involved with Charon-VAX a bit lately so may be able to help...n  N > Also, and this is technical, does Charron Vax actually run as an applicationP > over windows and/or linux, or does it have its own kernel without any need for > windows or linux ?  R The Charon-VAX software is installed and run as an application on the base (WinNT,M Win2K, Linux, or VMS) operating system.  At the Charon-VAX command prompt youAI boot the VMS-VAX environment just as if you were booting the original VAXuU system.  The VMS software being booted is typically a image file of the disk that wasCJ transfered from the original VAX system hardware.  The Charon-VAX software? kit does not include any Compaq written pieces of VMS software.y  = > > o QM-6KRAA-AA: VAX to CHARON-VAX for OpenVMS Alpha - $500oA > > o QM-6T8AA-AA: VAX to CHARON-VAX for Windows and Linux - $100  > O > Interesting that for VMS, Compaq gives you a break if you run the emulator ontN > an alpha, but for layered products, they charge more if you run the products > on an alpha.  P Apparently the $100 discount is Sue's typo.  The official posting shows the same: $500/$1000 ratio for both the OS and for layered products.C Check out http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/01/03/68383064  G > > Compaq Services will support the Compaq OpenVMS VAX software on the 7 > > CHARON-VAX emulator running on Compaq systems only.s >-P > While it is cool that Compaq is acknowledging this and supporting it, I have aO > feeling that the "running on Compaq systems only" is a harbinger of things toaJ > come. Since VMS, through the Charron-VAX emulator, now runs on "industryM > standard hardware" as per Compaq's definition of "industry standard",  theyeL > are in fact defeating this "industry standard" by limiting support only to- > their own systems, making them proprietary.n  R If I run Charon with Windows 2000 on a Dell box and I run Charon with Windows 2000U on a Compaq box, I would expect the same software bugs to appear in both places.  The2W chance that the hardware, which is three layers away (VMS->Charon->Windows->Intel H/W),-\ will mess things up is pretty slim.  I'd want to replicate the problem on another box anywayX to prove the hardware wasn't broken.  All I need to do it use a Compaq box as the second] system.  I figure Compaq needs to limit their risk at some point and I see your point too buta# I don't read all that much into it.6  K > Also interesting that in the list of supported applications, they includeIN > ALL-IN-1 and Mailbus, but they exclude Message Router, the one key messagingL > product that Digital did not port to Alpha forcing customers to retain VAXN > hardware in their shops. This would be a natural since companies might stillM > have the need to run that one application that remains unavailable on AlphanN > and using the emulator for it would be the only option now that VAXes are no > longer availble from Compaq.  O I miss DECmcc and some of the other "long gone" products too.  They didn't make.Y it to Alpha but I've been pleasantly surprised to see them working fine on Charon anyway.-  Q (You should have seen the look on my daughter's face when I got the old Adventure5Q game/program running on my laptop.  It doesn't compare to Myst III running on the-/ same machine but it brings back fond memories.)d  R Maybe all it take is for someone to ask that Message Router be added to the set ofV products being put through the current testing cycle.  For that matter, what other old5 VAX software products would people like to see added?a  	 Rob Lyonsh
 Consultant& High Availability Systems & Charon-VAX   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:20:09 -0000 - From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) 6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"7 Message-ID: <918BB8EECwarrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>S  4 mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch (John McLean) wrote in+ <3C275771.109494F8@swissonline.delete.ch>: e   >  >  >Warren Spencer wrote: >> %I >> I received a phone call from a Compaq sales/marketing type last week. MG >> She wanted to know what I was planning to buy in terms of enterpriseAD >> platform boxes in the near future.  I asked her what she meant byH >> "enterprise platform", and she responded with (para-phrase):  Windows" >> NT/2K on Proliant or similar... >> nG >> I said "That's a desktop - aren't OpenVMS and Tru-64 your enterpriserF >> platforms?"  She wasn't knowledgable in those areas, unfortunately,/ >> and our phone call ended shortly thereafter.  >> A >1 >Warren, >r4 >I'd put a brief introduction to this and send it toG >Rick.Frazier@compaq.com and Jackie.Kahle@compaq.com (who is out of thec% >office but will be back on Jan 7th).  >mE >Be very clear why you think this is a poor effort and what you think = >should be done.  Abuse probably won't help so keep it civil.o > F >The more complaints that Compaq get like this, the harder they should7 >looking at the performance of their Marketing people. T >e >e	 >John McL     G Thanks for the suggestion John.  Who (besides CPQ employees) are these - people?-   ws   --     Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)i The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 07:12:14 +0100l1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> 6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"5 Message-ID: <3C3547BE.6FDC0826@swissonline.delete.ch>i   Warren Spencer wrote:e > 6 > mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch (John McLean) wrote in, > <3C275771.109494F8@swissonline.delete.ch>: ...  > > 6 > >I'd put a brief introduction to this and send it toI > >Rick.Frazier@compaq.com and Jackie.Kahle@compaq.com (who is out of then' > >office but will be back on Jan 7th).y ...0 > H > Thanks for the suggestion John.  Who (besides CPQ employees) are these	 > people?e >   G In April 2000 Rick Frazier was vice president of Marketing for Compaq'smG Business Critical Solutions Group but I believe that since Marcello hastG moved up a rung, Frazier has stepped up to Marcello's old role.  (I sawhE something about this yesterday somewhere and I'll try to confirm thisa
 later today).a  H AFAIK, Jackie Kahle is responsible for VMS and Tru64 marketing.  I thinkG she reports to Mary-Ellen Fortier... Maybe someone can confirm that for  us.      John   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:51:33 GMT " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>3 Subject: Re: Congratulations for the festive season 2 Message-ID: <pv3Z7.3825$E82.11098@typhoon.bart.nl>   You could post it :-)-7 I'd be interested to read it, just for old time's sake.p   Hans  8 Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:TyO2RuvFYVki@eisner.encompasserve.org...8L > In article <a04nta$mjt$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:s > >mH > > If everyone was using BLISS then sure there'd be "BLISS for Dummies" booksk > > on the shelves.u >eH >    I wrote a "BLISS for C Programmers" doc as an exercise to make sureI >    I knew BLISS.  It's got a few errors in it, but if I change the name G >    (e.g. C Programmers eqla Dummies) do you think I could sell a few?h >    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 00:40:18 GMTi( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)3 Subject: Re: Congratulations for the festive seasonn2 Message-ID: <a12tli$10uf$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  3 In article <TyO2RuvFYVki@eisner.encompasserve.org>,L. Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:G >   I wrote a "BLISS for C Programmers" doc as an exercise to make surerH >   I knew BLISS.  It's got a few errors in it, but if I change the nameF >   (e.g. C Programmers eqla Dummies) do you think I could sell a few?  3 I don't know, Bob, but I'd sure like to see a copy.e   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 15:51:50 -0500n* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>D Subject: Re: CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again.) Message-ID: <3C34C466.2090007@compaq.com>c  $ Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:   > I > So John, you'll accept responsibility for the CONVSHR problem I'm goinge > to submit?  :)    L No problem.  I know how to re-assign problem reports.  It is what I do best.     -- g John Reagann' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadera   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 21:31:21 -0600a- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)mD Subject: Re: CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again.3 Message-ID: <gg2rI7aZ$h7d@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  V In article <3C34C466.2090007@compaq.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes:& > Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote: >  >> tJ >> So John, you'll accept responsibility for the CONVSHR problem I'm going >> to submit?  :)i >  > N > No problem.  I know how to re-assign problem reports.  It is what I do best.   Psst.  Brian -  8 Recode the call to CONVSHR in very obscure Pascal, using7 at least 5 environment files private to the reproducer.i2 Be sure it depends on several custom Schema Types.  0 Submit it to anyone, and it will get to John :-)   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 15:11:16 -0800k* From: morrisj@epsilon3.com (Jay E. Morris) Subject: Re: DEC is DEAD< Message-ID: <8600a73e.0201031511.8707623@posting.google.com>  h koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in message news:<lmOVDcLv0BLD@eisner.encompasserve.org>...l > In article <0DgR7.45349$f75.2048301@typhoon.austin.rr.com>, "Jay E. Morris" <morrisj@epsilon3.com> writes: > > + > > http://www.epsilon3.com/images/flat.jpgh >  >    File not found.  B Sorry for the delay.  Been without usenet for a month, can't go on  (cough), send newsgroups, arrrg!   It's fixed.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 02:09:23 GMT,& From: Eric Taylor <et@rocketship1.com>B Subject: Re: decnet load/thruput test command (THANKYOU (dtsend)?). Message-ID: <3C350EDD.5766DDA@rocketship1.com>  % DTSEND!!!!!!!!!!! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!C   I knew you guys would know it!  ( ThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyouThankyou   eric     "Main, Kerry" wrote:    > re: DECnet phase IV testing .. > = > As David stated, you are likely looking for the DECnet testd > sender/receiver utility. >cI > In case you do not have the hardcopy of the guide that David mentioned,c > here is an online pointer: >e > Reference Chapter 4 -pJ > <http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/documentation/pdf/DECNET_OVM > S_NET_UTIL.PDF>t >b& > (one long url that will likely wrap) >r	 > Regardsi >o > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant  > Compaq Canada Corp.e > Professional Services  > Voice: 613-592-4660w > Fax  :  819-772-7036 > Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com >b > -----Original Message-----: > From: David Jones [mailto:JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu]  > Sent: January 3, 2002 12:01 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com E > Subject: Re: decnet load/thruput test command (what was it called?)  > 1 > In message <3C33C054.E8025C21@rocketship1.com>,e, >   Eric Taylor <et@rocketship1.com> writes:; > >Some time ago I ran across a decnet command that let you-< > >send some data for N seconds to some target node and then< > >it would give you a thruput measure. I remember you couldA > >give it a record size etc. I think there was some sort of echo36 > >program on the remote end to send back the packets. >KD > It sounds like you are thinking of the DECnet test sender/receiverA > utility, which was described in the "DECnet for OpenVMS Networky > Management > Utilities" manual. >i > $ run sys$system:dtsend = > _Test: data/node=alph3b/size=576/seconds=20/speed=100000000c- > %NET-S-NORMAL, normal successful completiont >t > Test Parameters: >    Test duration (sec)  20" >    Target node          "ALPH3B"# >    Line speed (baud)    100000000s >    Message size (bytes) 576' >s > Summary statistics:f( >    Total messages XMIT  291956  RECV 0# >    Total bytes XMIT     168166656f" >    Messages per second  14597.80! >    Bytes per second     8408332h" >    Line thruput (baud)  67266656  >    %Line Utilization    67.267 >.> > David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929/ > Ohio State University        |      Internet:e  > 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |! > jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.eduo< > Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu >a3 > Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:52:36 +0100y9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> * Subject: Re: EISA conf util for download ?' Message-ID: <3C34A874.FA765E8F@aaa.com>s  ! OK. One of the four first then...b% Anyway, I havn't found any ECU yet...e	 Jan-Erik.a   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > N > Actually, it wasn't one of the first, Cobra, Laser and Flamingo all predated > it.s >  > _Fredi   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:33:09 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>o Subject: Re: Emulation...-1 Message-ID: <Sp2Z7.262$5Y4.5751@news.cpqcorp.net>   B WILLIAM WEBB wrote in message <0033000046666128000002L082*@MHS>...  1 >I had occasion to research this and got an introa: >to somebody with significant resposibilities w/r/t POSIX- > . >He said that it would be a two-stage process: >c+ >First there would be an updated POSIX kit.t9 >Following this, the interfaces would be fully integrateda >into OpenVMS. >n5 >Granted, this was a year ago, but I haven't seen anyr, >statements to the contrary since that time. >r  J COE has a couple requirements.  First the system needs to be have the OpenH Group certifications for the POSIX standards.  The other is that the COE: Kernel requires some UNIX shell, utilities, and behaviors.  L The POSIX certifications are being satisfied by an up-to-date implementationL of POSIX.  That doesn't mean it is a barn burner for performance - but it isJ quite acceptable for many things.  The X11 and Motif certification process! for instance, is run under POSIX.   I The COE Kernel requirements are met by a combination of POSIX, as well astL "ported" native tools (i.e. UNIX commands not running under POSIX).  It alsoJ requires changes to the behavior of X11 and Motif to match UNIX standards,K and the file system (ODS-5 upgrades and new modes of operation).  Plus lotsi of new CRTL functionality.  F The long-term plan is to be able to do away with the need for POSIX byA providing native UNIX and shell capabilities which pass the POSIXMF certification standards (well, I'll wager it will be either the UNIX98E standard, or potentially a LINUX "standard" by then).  This will alsorD require native fork() and select() capabilities in the OS - which is; probably where a lot of the hard work will need to be done.d  L So, the new POSIX environment is much more robust, and usable - than the oldC versions which were more "check the box".  A good way to get a UNIXeF application up and running quickly - but still not perhaps the highestE performing option (disk IO in particular isn't blazing - but create ai# RAMdisk and it doesn't do too bad).t   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 15:36:35 -0600w+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)s Subject: Go Big Red!!!3 Message-ID: <Y4l3ZkcLbSDV@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  ; 	That's right... Tonight is the night.                        B http://www.huskers.com/sports/football/2001fbreleases/01miami1.htm  & 	The 88th Rose Bowl, Presented by AT&T8 	No. 4/4/2 Nebraska (11-1, 7-1, Big 12 North, tie-First)0 	vs. No. 1/1/1 Miami (11-0, 7-0 Big East, First) 	DATE: Thursday, Jan. 3, 2002h 	TIME: 7 p.m. Centralt 	SITE: Pasadena, Calif 	STADIUM: Rose Bowle 	CAPACITY: 91,136p 	TURF: Natural GrassF 	NATIONAL TV: ABC (Keith Jackson-PBP; Tim Brant-Color; Lynn Swann and  	Todd Harris-Sideline)E 	NATIONAL RADIO: ESPN Radio (Ron Franklin-PBP; Mike Gottfried-Color;   	Adrian Karsten-Sideline):   	Go Huskers!   				Robs   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:29:12 -0000 / From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u39c8873f0d3a7@corp.supernews.com>   = In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:l :> :    rename *.a *.b :> v :> for f in *.a  :> doo :>     mv $f ${f%a}b :> donei :>   :> e  :> Do you consider that painful?  G :    Yes.  I also consider the fact that I have to relearn it for everyiE :    shell I'm forced to use to be painfull.  And I picked it only asdG :    an example of what's hard to do when the shell insisits on messinge< :    with the command line before passing it to the program.  ( Wow, you have a LOW pain threshold, Bob!  > You don't have to _relearn_ it unless you have very bad short-@ or long-term memory.  I think the last time I did something likeA (IIRC,  I did a cp, not mv) that was about 2 years ago.  When you$> asked, it was not a big deal to create the code anew.  I *did*0 have to look up the proper operator (%), though.   -- u -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:08:22 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>p: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031103550.19934-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  ! On 3 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:sI > > On the other hand, unlike DOS, VMS, or TOPS-10/20, there's hardly anyM > > reason to do it on UNIX.B >    Then why do I find it a necessary step a couple times a week?  @ Because Bob Koehler doesn't know how to do things the right way.  G >    Which has to do with doing real work, not with worrying about whatn& >    the components of a filename are.  E There won't be much more real work to do on VMS.  VMS is dead and itsoE corpse stinks.  The market for VMS programmers is heading like Enron.n  . > > Equally important, subdirectories are much% > > easier to use in UNIX than in VMSp6 >    Bull.  You're just used to doing it the UNIX way.  ; Once again, Bob Koehler demonstrates his ignorance of UNIX.w  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrcoF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:11:11 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>o: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031108340.19934-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  ! On 3 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote: J > > Only people who can't program in any language would be so stupid as to/ > > prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language.IE >    Then why is it I could do usefull things in a few lines of BLISSm. >    that took all day to program in MACRO-10?  B The answer is above.  Bob Koehler can't program.  He's a wannabee.   >    Just what do you thinka< >    drove Bill to invent a System Software language anyhow?  G Like C, BLISS has its origins as a RatFor for PDP-11 assembly language.e> Apparently people needed such on PDP-11s.  Unlike C, BLISS was+ unsuccessful; only one vendor ever used it.   
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrctF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:14:35 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031111410.19934-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  ! On 3 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:dG > > : I miss file version numbers (ITS, TOPS-20, *VMS*, LispM) on Unix.r >    TOPS-20 didn'th% >    really know what to do with themp  + Another example of Bob Koehler's ignorance.t  G He's probably thinking about the fact that programs written for another I operating system (TOPS-10) didn't know about version numbers.  Well, duh.rJ How well does a C program written for UNIX know about VMS version numbers?  I Except that TOPS-20 could run the TOPS-10 binaries without recompilation.e: How well does VMS run UNIX binaries without recompilation?  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:31:21 -0000r/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>a: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u39cc96ph10hd8@corp.supernews.com>K  = In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:r9 :> Believe it or not, ence you get accustomed to them noth/ :> being there, life gets easier, at least IMO.l  H :    Didn't have them, got them, lost them.  Always prefered having themJ :    when it was done well.  VMS does them well, RSX is OK, TOPS-20 didn't= :    really know what to do with them, MVS makes them a PITA.u  = I guess this is a matter of religion.  Just this week I spenti> 4 hours finding a client's problem _caused_ by version #s.  It& would not have been a problem on Unix.   To each his own.   -- a -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:33:06 GMTi2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C34B14D.2AB061E7@bartek.dontspamme.net>r   Rob Young wrote: > F >         Yep... with vi , you have power vi users that wouldn't touchG >         Emacs with a ten foot pole.  Don't know about noclobber as it L >         was a program being developed and of course was occasionally beingL >         overwritten.  Problem was of course a $ cp  went to the wrong fileE >         and all was lost.  Never had that problem with VMS as a neweO >         file/version is automatically created.  Backup of course would rescue8K >         folks for the most cases.  Worst case scenario of course is to be M >         working all day on something and accidently overwrite or delete theoK >         wrong file *before* nightly backups and that is what I saw above.t  J I use a wrapper for vi that keeps everything in SCCS. The source directoryJ has current files in it, but I can easily pull any previous version of theH file out of SCCS. I started this with YP (NIS) as a "ypedit" script thatM pulls the file out of SCCS, starts vi and when you are done, updates the SCCSnL copy and pushes the file into the NIS map. I have access to over 5 years of J previous changes I made here on my office systems, including the migration from NIS to NIS+  I *** Yes, I know, there are much better things out there to use than SCCS,-: but it works and it's on any of the Solaris systems I run.   aak    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:36:47 -0000f/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>@: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u39cmf7h86885d@corp.supernews.com>   ; In comp.os.vms Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:s= :> Emacs has built-in version control.  You can keep M oldestaB :> versions and N newest versions - while allowing Emacs to remove :> the ones in-between.e  ? : 	Yep... with vi , you have power vi users that wouldn't touchk@ : 	Emacs with a ten foot pole.  Don't know about noclobber as it  > I have never met ANYONE who is even half as proficient with vi> as a six-month experienced user is with Emacs!  Once a vi user; sees Emacs in action, they're usually sold on its features.   = The ability to tag functions, structures, etc in modules of ai@ very complex software package and effortlessly hop from function@ to function and module to module with a few keystrokes is a real> time saver, as are the commands for locating matching "{"s and "("s.L   -- o -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:25:22 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>': Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031115260.19934-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>   On 3 Jan 2002, Rob Young wrote:-+ > 	Never had that problem with VMS as a new ) > 	file/version is automatically created.i  H Strange to say, the VMS port of vi doesn't write a new version.  It just always updates version 1.-  E Maybe it has something to do with being an editor that is designed to G write in place, as opposed to an artiface of the host operating system.a0 There's actually a reason why vi works that way.  > I haven't used such editors in 22 years, and I haven't had to.  H VMS file versioning is a PITA because it versions when you don't want itJ to.  What's more, it has no auto-delete.  Probably because, like UNIX, VMSG has no undelete.  On TOPS-20, you could set the version retention to 1,eF allow the backup versions to be deleted, but always have the option to undelete a backup version.  F But then again, both TOPS-20 and VMS are dead.  The only difference isH that people still care about TOPS-20 after all these years.  Nobody will! care about VMS 18 years from now.7  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc>F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:39:28 -0600+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>o: Subject: RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E074@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----4 > From: Mark Crispin [mailto:mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU]  < > How well does VMS run UNIX binaries without recompilation?  J *Ahem*  Ok, how well does Unix run Unix binaries without recompilation? :)   Regards,   Chrism    ! Christopher Smith, Perl DeveloperE Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");t 'n  s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:55:50 -0500 From: William_Bochnik@acml.com: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC> Message-ID: <OFB730F9A9.754870DD-ON85256B36.006D67FF@acml.com>  A the "problems" caused by versions in vms (most likely you hit thec? 32767 limit?) is miniscule in comparison to the problems caused-9 by not having version numbers, in man hours wasted (IMHO)9      ^                                                                                               ^                       Michael Zarlenga                                                        ^                       <zarlenga@conan.                To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com              ^                       ids.net>                        cc:                                     ^                                                Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went  ^                       01/03/2002 02:31         wrong at DEC                                   ^                       PM                                                                      ^                       Please respond                                                          ^                       to Michael                                                              ^                       Zarlenga                                                                ^                       <zarlenga@conan.                                                        ^                       ids.net>                                                                ^                                                                                               ^                                                                                                     = In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:e9 :> Believe it or not, ence you get accustomed to them not / :> being there, life gets easier, at least IMO.e  < :    Didn't have them, got them, lost them.  Always prefered having themC; :    when it was done well.  VMS does them well, RSX is OK,h TOPS-20 didn't= :    really know what to do with them, MVS makes them a PITA.   = I guess this is a matter of religion.  Just this week I spent/> 4 hours finding a client's problem _caused_ by version #s.  It& would not have been a problem on Unix.   To each his own.   -- -- Mike Zarlenga          F ______________________________________________________________________;  The information contained in this transmission may containV@ privileged and confidential information and is intended only forA the use of the person(s) name above.  If you are not the intendedb= recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering.3 this message to the intended recipient, any review, @ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication? is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy # all copies of the original message.h   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 14:01:57 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <yjAOcI5oqxSU@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  a In article <u39c8873f0d3a7@corp.supernews.com>, Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:r > @ > You don't have to _relearn_ it unless you have very bad short- > or long-term memory.  D    You do when you're forced to change shells, which is what I said.B    Then concept is the same in most shells, but the syntax for csh    and ksh don't match.a  B    Fortunatley now I have a ksh compatable shell on all my systemsC    and can count on always using that, but there were days when kshd9    was not around and I had to go learn csh or something.w   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 15:01:15 -0500u- From: viro@weyl.math.psu.edu (Alexander Viro)u: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC* Message-ID: <a12dab$ncg@weyl.math.psu.edu>  ' In article <3C33B303.C1336993@fsi.net>,h0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  H >BASRTL is distributed with OpenVMS, not with the language (although theH >DEC BASIC distro. may contain an updated version). If it weren't, BASIC? >routines and programs would not be usable from one system (thenI >developer's) to another (the end-user's). Same for DIBOL (DBLRTL), COBOLt- >(COBRTL), and so on. They all come with VMS.i  G ... and sed, grep, etc. come with any UNIX since v7.  Your point being?hF Yes, when /bin gets removed - system is deeply screwed.  Same for RTLsF (or dynamic linker, for that matter).  Yes, there are files that wouldE better be there, or you'll have a huge PITA on hands.  On any system. C You start removing parts of core system - you are going to run intoo trouble.   --  E Advocate: n. Pack animal, tends to produce a lot of noise, especiallyiD when two groups greet each other with projectile vomit and long loudE screams. Can imitate speech better than parrots, but can't be used as  pets due to guano problems.p   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 14:04:35 -0600e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)N: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <0yzGlFA7I2PV@eisner.encompasserve.org>r   In article <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031103550.19934-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:# > On 3 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:hJ >> > On the other hand, unlike DOS, VMS, or TOPS-10/20, there's hardly any >> > reason to do it on UNIX. C >>    Then why do I find it a necessary step a couple times a week?i > B > Because Bob Koehler doesn't know how to do things the right way.  A    This is work assigned to me, on systems I'm forced to use, not F    something I choose to do.  You don't really think I'd choose to use    UNIX, do you?  G > There won't be much more real work to do on VMS.  VMS is dead and itswG > corpse stinks.  The market for VMS programmers is heading like Enron.o  I    OK, if folks like you keep away from it there'll be plenty of fun for -    the rest of us.  = > Once again, Bob Koehler demonstrates his ignorance of UNIX.0  E    I happen to be documented as a UNIX expert.  So how come you can't ?    argue these points on the basis of fact, instead of insults?h  *    Never mind, I got that kill file handy.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 14:07:03 -0600B- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <d5T5byllbE2$@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  a In article <u39cc96ph10hd8@corp.supernews.com>, Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:t > ? > I guess this is a matter of religion.  Just this week I spentv@ > 4 hours finding a client's problem _caused_ by version #s.  It( > would not have been a problem on Unix. >   B    Again it sounds like you've got a system which doesn't know howA    to handle version numbers.  Imagine how you'ld feel if you got 6    a system that didn't know how to handle file names.   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 12:37:44 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <qh4rm39nmv.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  - Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:e7 > On TOPS-20, you could set the version retention to 1,IH > allow the backup versions to be deleted, but always have the option to > undelete a backup version.  I I'm confused.  If you set the version retention to 1, does that mean that B you keep the latest version and one previous?  Or only the latest?  G If you can delete the backup, and then undelete it, does that mean that ( delete doesn't actually  free the space?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:12:18 -0000o/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>b: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u39i9i2u2o7n8e@corp.supernews.com>o  = In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:eA :> You don't have to _relearn_ it unless you have very bad short-  :> or long-term memory.i  F :    You do when you're forced to change shells, which is what I said.D :    Then concept is the same in most shells, but the syntax for csh :    and ksh don't match.n  " No one is forced to change shells.    D :    Fortunatley now I have a ksh compatable shell on all my systemsE :    and can count on always using that, but there were days when ksho; :    was not around and I had to go learn csh or something.o  = I've been on systems all over the world for my last employer,/? some that were setup 10 years ago, others that were set up thatp year.  All had ksh.l  = Have YOU been on a Unix box in teh last 10 years that did not2	 have ksh?1   --   -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:13:57 -0000r/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>3: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u39iclnv46tgb7@corp.supernews.com>a  = In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:B@ :> I guess this is a matter of religion.  Just this week I spentA :> 4 hours finding a client's problem _caused_ by version #s.  Itt) :> would not have been a problem on Unix.v  D :    Again it sounds like you've got a system which doesn't know how :    to handle version numbers.n   No, Bob, it was a VMS system.o    % :  Imagine how you'ld feel if you gott8 :    a system that didn't know how to handle file names.  9 Been there; done that.  As I said, once they were gone, Io didn't miss them.    --   -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:40:41 -0500l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C34CFD6.CA6055D0@videotron.ca>  # > Why don't you show us how to maker > ! >      rename *.a.part2 *.b.part10 > B > work on VMS?  Because you can't. The file systems are different,> > and VMS doesn't allow multiple periods in a file name, while > UNIX does.  ) Hasn't this changed on Alpha with ODS-5 ?    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:42:08 GMTi& From: badbob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <3C34D1F0.41E4FDBA@bellatlantic.net>   Bob Koehler wrote: >  > In article <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:% > > On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:eG > >> > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the proper  > >> > word here...eF > >>    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before BLISS-36). > >-J > > Only people who can't program in any language would be so stupid as to/ > > prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language.v > >eN > > BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly language.  But on the PDP-10, > > BLISS was a complete waste.e > E >    Then why is it I could do usefull things in a few lines of BLISS F >    that took all day to program in MACRO-10?  Just what do you think< >    drove Bill to invent a System Software language anyhow?
 Sorry Bob,C when a hammer is your only tool, all problems look solvable with a  C hammer.  I have favorite dialects, I certainly do not prefer bliss,uB i think that is the first part of Blister on the Ass of progress..7 not ure which "S" set is used to make the word bliss...o bobo   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:27:25 GMTn/ From: "Don Chiasson" <don_chiasson@notmail.com>,: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC) Message-ID: <hV4Z7.1$iM.0@news1.bloor.is>   @ "Eric Smith" <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote in message* news:qh4rm39nmv.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com.../ > Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:u9 > > On TOPS-20, you could set the version retention to 1,oG > > allow the backup versions to be deleted, but always have the optione to > > undelete a backup version. >iF > I'm confused.  If you set the version retention to 1, does that mean thatD > you keep the latest version and one previous?  Or only the latest?  F     Version retention of 1 means that you keep one copy - the newest -	 in sight.8  D > If you can delete the backup, and then undelete it, does that mean that* > delete doesn't actually  free the space?  H     Deleted files are marked for deletion, but kept as "hidden" files inG the same directory until they are expunged -really deleted - by commandpD or automatically when you log out. You can do a directory of deleted# files, and undelete any if desired.s             Dono e-mail: it's not not, it's hot.P   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:37:20 GMTn4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <3C34DC3C.7D06BB84@blueyonder.co.uk>   Michael Zarlenga wrote:n > ? > In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:uB > :> I guess this is a matter of religion.  Just this week I spentC > :> 4 hours finding a client's problem _caused_ by version #s.  It + > :> would not have been a problem on Unix.e > F > :    Again it sounds like you've got a system which doesn't know how! > :    to handle version numbers.u >  > No, Bob, it was a VMS system.   A I think he really meant application rather than operating system.s" That's how I understood it anyway.   > ' > :  Imagine how you'ld feel if you gotr: > :    a system that didn't know how to handle file names. > ; > Been there; done that.  As I said, once they were gone, I  > didn't miss them.    ?   t -- . Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  t  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of a! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 11:03:22 -0700e+ From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca>u: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C349CEA.CAF2EED0@jetnet.ab.ca>   Michael Zarlenga wrote:  > = > In comp.os.vms Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:a? > :> Emacs has built-in version control.  You can keep M oldest-D > :> versions and N newest versions - while allowing Emacs to remove > :> the ones in-between.h > F > :       Yep... with vi , you have power vi users that wouldn't touchG > :       Emacs with a ten foot pole.  Don't know about noclobber as iti > @ > I have never met ANYONE who is even half as proficient with vi@ > as a six-month experienced user is with Emacs!  Once a vi user= > sees Emacs in action, they're usually sold on its features.i > ? > The ability to tag functions, structures, etc in modules of a B > very complex software package and effortlessly hop from functionB > to function and module to module with a few keystrokes is a real@ > time saver, as are the commands for locating matching "{"s and > "("s., > A Well I was never sold on Emacs or VI. Both seem to be prehistorici> in many things and too bloated for general use.For some reason= I still like to boot and run OS's off floppies not a huge HD.P --  % Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *1+ www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.htmlb   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 00:28:11 GMTn( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a12sur$10gh$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  / In article <u39cmf7h86885d@corp.supernews.com>,s1 Michael Zarlenga  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> wrote:n> >The ability to tag functions, structures, etc in modules of aA >very complex software package and effortlessly hop from functionmA >to function and module to module with a few keystrokes is a realw >time saver,   You mean "^T" in vi?  3 >as are the commands for locating matching "{"s and> >"("s.   You mean "%" in vi?-   -- m@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)t   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 00:25:48 GMTr( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a12sqc$107o$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  1 In article <3C338089.1C12E6FA@trailing-edge.com>, - Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:s? >Unfortunately, while the "pure core" of Unix doesn't care whatAC >an extension is, most all the tools - even really basic tools likev >the C compiler - do care: [example deleted]   F So how often have you needed to rename ALL your ".somethingelse" filesG to ".c"? Ever? When was the last time that you needed to rename a whole H directory of files and the translation was as simple as one extension to another?  E This specific example is very popular with VMS users, but in practice E when have you ever needed to do this on UNIX? I don't think I've everI+ got a reasonable response to this question.   H Now when you have highly structured file names with name transitions outI of the control of the user, as on VMS with version numbers, I can see howrH it might be handy to do a mass rename after a purge. I haven't ever feltJ the urge, because I liked to have a visual reminder of what files I'd beenF changing a lot. But I can see the attraction of having everything that( you haven't touched recently being ";1".  J But on UNIX, well, I don't think it's an important issue... again, I bringL up the plethora of VMS-style rename tools that get installed and never used.   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 00:38:52 GMT ( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a12tis$10sg$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  ' In article <3C33B303.C1336993@fsi.net>, 0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: >Peter da Silva wrote:	 >> [snip].H >> But (to paraphrase you) that's a RTL module, not the instruction set!  ? >EXACTLY! It's a SOFTware thing, not HARDware! *VERY* importanteE >distinction. The same HARDware stuff will be found on every PDP CPU,t8 >every VAX CPU, every Alpha CPU, every IPF CPU, etc. ...  F Oh, like, maybe BASIC and PDP-11 assembler are fundamentally differentF kinds of things, it doesn't make sense to demand that BASIC and PDP-11F assembler do everything at the same level? Is that what you're getting at?   J (oh, and some CPUs support string operations in the instruction set, while/ others require RTLs to get the same capability)_  F >MID$() is a BASIC built-in function. This is a far-cry from a machineH >instruction. BASIC is a 3GL, not a 2GL. The whole comparison is totally/ >nonsensical and irrelevant to this discussion.t  D This whole discussion is based on an attempt to treat a conventionalF procedural language and a functional dataflow language as if they wereF similar kinds of things, and remove all the dataflow elements from the9 latter and complain that it's a poor procedural language.a  . I think the analogy is pretty close, actually.  H >BASRTL is distributed with OpenVMS, not with the language (although the3 >DEC BASIC distro. may contain an updated version).n  G And /bin is distributed with UNIX. So talking about /bin/sh without thenK rest of /bin makes as much sense as talking about DEC BASIC without BASRTL.t   -- 3@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)m   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 00:57:00 GMTI From: geary@io.com (Big Bird)s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECC Message-ID: <v57Z7.142857$m05.12498466@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>y  3 In article <aG+zrzJjrdPo@eisner.encompasserve.org>,e. Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:K < In article <3C348512.B8B9593F@srv.net>, Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> writes:  < > # <   The file systems are different,.: < > and VMS doesn't allow multiple periods in a file name. < L <    Yes it does.  Please catch up to at least only a couple of years out of' <    date before posting such nonsense.i  D How do I do it? We're running 7.3. This is what I get when I try it.   $ rename t.t t.w.tH %RENAME-E-OPENOUT, error opening DISK$DEV_USER:[GEARYM]T^.W.T; as output% -RMS-E-ENT, ACP enter function failedn- -SYSTEM-W-BADFILEVER, bad file version number( $ rename t.t;1 t.w.t;1M %DCL-W-PARMDEL, invalid parameter delimiter - check use of special characters   \;1\l  
 Mark Geary --       "Build high for happiness."    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 16:55:51 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>a: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031651580.20229-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>    On 3 Jan 2002, Eric Smith wrote:K > I'm confused.  If you set the version retention to 1, does that mean thatoD > you keep the latest version and one previous?  Or only the latest?  F Only the latest.  To keep the latest version and one previous, set the retention to 2.t  I > If you can delete the backup, and then undelete it, does that mean that * > delete doesn't actually  free the space?  H That's right.  There's a separate command, EXPUNGE, that frees the spaceJ occupied by all deleted files (and makes those files unrecoverable).  Also LOGOUT did an implicit EXPUNGE.1  D Thus on TOPS-20, the "delete file" operation of most other operatingI systems is a two-step operation: delete, then expunge.  There is a way toOB delete and expunge a file in the same operation, but hardly anyone actually used it.   $ This was considered to be a feature.  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 17:16:06 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>o: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <qhvgei9aqx.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  * peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:H > So how often have you needed to rename ALL your ".somethingelse" filesI > to ".c"? Ever? When was the last time that you needed to rename a whole J > directory of files and the translation was as simple as one extension to
 > another?  I I've occasionally wanted to rename a bunch of ".htm" files to the correctf extension, ".html".r  4 It seems easy enough on those rare occasions to say:* 	for f in *.htm; do mv $f name ${f}l; done  C And if you really had to change to an entirely different extension,o e.g., from ".xxx" to ".yyy":6 	for f in *.xxx; do mv $f `basename $f .xxx`.yyy; done  A But in general I completely agree with you.  It's not something IaB often need, and it doesn't bother me that the shell doesn't have a$ built in command to do exactly that.  A If I *did* for some reason need that a lot of the time, I'd writetD a small script.  And I *still* would be happy that it wasn't a built in part of the shell.         ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 20:25:47 -0500e5 From: pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org (Bill Pechter)d: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <a130ar$255r$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>  2 In article <a12sqc$107o$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>,) Peter da Silva <peter@taronga.com> wrote: 2 >In article <3C338089.1C12E6FA@trailing-edge.com>,. >Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:@ >>Unfortunately, while the "pure core" of Unix doesn't care whatD >>an extension is, most all the tools - even really basic tools like >>the C compiler - do care:  >[example deleted] > G >So how often have you needed to rename ALL your ".somethingelse" files H >to ".c"? Ever? When was the last time that you needed to rename a wholeI >directory of files and the translation was as simple as one extension to 	 >another?- >-- A >Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?h > G >"Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept"h >	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)  < It's pretty common with windows users with FILEXXX.DOC which( needs to be renamed filexxx.doc, though.  A I'm sure I've done it at least monthly for the past 5 or 6 years. E Yeah, I can work a quick for loop in shell for this if I don't have aeB directory full of 5000 windows files dragged and dropped in place.  C When I have to I resort to xargs.  I don't have to like it, though.o   Bill     -- e --  H   d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN.  Don't you wish you could still buy it now!0   bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@ureach.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 17:28:02 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031703520.20229-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  $ On 4 Jan 2002, Peter da Silva wrote:H > So how often have you needed to rename ALL your ".somethingelse" files > to ".c"? Ever?  . On TOPS-10, TOPS-20, VMS, and DOS, frequently.  : > When was the last time that you needed to rename a wholeJ > directory of files and the translation was as simple as one extension to
 > another?  F The last time was when I was just starting to use UNIX and didn't know any better.u  G > This specific example is very popular with VMS users, but in practicesG > when have you ever needed to do this on UNIX? I don't think I've ever - > got a reasonable response to this question.n  H You need it if you're a baby UNIX user coming from another OS where that= is the way that you do it.  But most baby UNIX users grow up.d  J > Now when you have highly structured file names with name transitions outK > of the control of the user, as on VMS with version numbers, I can see how-J > it might be handy to do a mass rename after a purge. I haven't ever feltL > the urge, because I liked to have a visual reminder of what files I'd beenH > changing a lot. But I can see the attraction of having everything that* > you haven't touched recently being ";1".  H The other reason is that traversing directories is a PITA on most of theI older operating systems.  UNIX and Multics are the only systems which gotnG it right.  The ability to do complex relative traversals is a HUGE win.   H Another important difference is on the old systems, the string after theG ".", the file name extension, really is an "extension".  That is, it ishC really only useful for the file type.  You can have FOO.C, FOO.MAC,>H FOO.FOR, FOO.CBL, etc. but the interface makes it unpleasant enough thatJ you generally do not have multiple source files with the same filename andI different extension.  When you have multiple files with the same filenamesF and different extension, typically it is the source file, the compiled. object file, and the executable (lunk) binary.  F UNIX is different that way.  You routinely have file names that differE only in the part after the "."; e.g. foo.h and foo.c.  Generally, you J don't want to rename *.c to *.d; you want to move *.c to another directory: or perhaps rename so as to add a ".old" to the file names.  L > But on UNIX, well, I don't think it's an important issue... again, I bringN > up the plethora of VMS-style rename tools that get installed and never used.  C What happens is that the baby UNIX user complains and gets the tool H installed, but the wizard who does it decides to teach the baby user theH right thing.  The baby user quickly discovers that the right thing is so1 much better that he never bothers using the tool.r  I Thus, the familiar situation where the tool gets installed and it's never- used.-  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrcmF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:49:12 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>c: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C350A06.3A90E15D@videotron.ca>   Peter da Silva wrote: H > So how often have you needed to rename ALL your ".somethingelse" files > to ".c"? Ever?  M Once I am satisfied with source for one version (eg: freeze the code), I will M purge the directory and rename *.* ;1 . After that, if I make any changes  totJ it (last minute bug fix or customization for customer), it becomes obvious  that somethint has been changed.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 02:37:24 GMTd$ From: Ric Werme <werme@mediaone.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC> Message-ID: <Ez8Z7.12823$zX1.10439818@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:b   >In article <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes: $ >> On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:F >>> > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the proper >>> > word here...E >>>    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before BLISS-36).t >>  I >> Only people who can't program in any language would be so stupid as toa. >> prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language. >> hM >> BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly language.  But on the PDP-10,t >> BLISS was a complete waste.  D >   Then why is it I could do usefull things in a few lines of BLISS- >   that took all day to program in MACRO-10?n  J Obviously you were doing some I/O and weren't using the TULIP I/O package.B Once I learned TULIP (thank you Ed Taft) I start rewriting some ofE my BLISS programs in MACRO-10.  I and they were much happier.  Then Iu  documented and named TULIP.  See9 http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0347/EXAMPL.MACd     Just what do you think; >   drove Bill to invent a System Software language anyhow?r  J He's a compiler person.  At the time he was a Comp Sci researcher.  That'sI what they do.  He was also one of my favorite professors.  However, BLISSaG wasn't for me.  If you like it fine.  I do like C, but I'm not sure I'd  want to use it on PDP-10.3  L Bill went on to do some work in the Ada arena.  Another language that didn't
 get very far.h   	-Ric Wermet --K "When we allow fundamental freedoms to be sacrificed in the name of real or D perceived emergency, we invariably regret it.   -- Thurgood MarshallC    Ric Werme                            | werme@nospam.mediaone.netr>    http://people.ne.mediaone.net/werme  |       ^^^^^^^ delete   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 02:53:04 GMTiL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <00A07810.56B60A79@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>   In article <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031115260.19934-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:  I >VMS file versioning is a PITA because it versions when you don't want itfK >to.  What's more, it has no auto-delete.  Probably because, like UNIX, VMSeH >has no undelete.  On TOPS-20, you could set the version retention to 1,G >allow the backup versions to be deleted, but always have the option to  >undelete a backup version.h  J Wrong.  (Or outdated, but this has been around for a long time, and I get L the feeling that a lot of your specific complaints about VMS are about 1.0; L no reason you should get familiar with the current capabilities of an OS youN hate, but it might be reasonable to qualify some of your statements with "when, I last looked at VMS" or some such.) Anyway,  # $ SET FILE/VERSION_LIMIT=n filespec$  H tells RMS to retain only as many versions of the particular file as you 5 specify.  You can have 0 old versions or up to 32766.e  J No OS-provided undelete though (and the freeware undeletes are only likelyM to work if you quiesce the disk immediately after the mistaken delete, exceptlJ for the SAFETY package, which needs to be installed and working before the deletion you want to reverse).   -- Alan     O ===============================================================================	0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-30561M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210rO ===============================================================================h   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 03:19:25 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <00A07814.0548DF32@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  a In article <u39iclnv46tgb7@corp.supernews.com>, Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:t> >In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:A >:> I guess this is a matter of religion.  Just this week I spentlB >:> 4 hours finding a client's problem _caused_ by version #s.  It* >:> would not have been a problem on Unix. >vE >:    Again it sounds like you've got a system which doesn't know how   >:    to handle version numbers. >e >No, Bob, it was a VMS system. >o >i& >:  Imagine how you'ld feel if you got9 >:    a system that didn't know how to handle file names.n >l: >Been there; done that.  As I said, once they were gone, I >didn't miss them.  @ I missed them enough on a ModComp that my development team spent@ three months producing a file system and tools that knew how to @ use it.  (The smallest named thing that Max IV knew about was a ? disk partition, track x -> track y.)  That was the early 1980s.,   -- Alani    O ===============================================================================l0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056eM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210aO ===============================================================================e   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 23:13:54 -0600 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)0: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <kFfG1sGCMbEB@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  a In article <u39cmf7h86885d@corp.supernews.com>, Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes: = > In comp.os.vms Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:r? > :> Emacs has built-in version control.  You can keep M oldestbD > :> versions and N newest versions - while allowing Emacs to remove > :> the ones in-between.  > A > : 	Yep... with vi , you have power vi users that wouldn't touchtB > : 	Emacs with a ten foot pole.  Don't know about noclobber as it > @ > I have never met ANYONE who is even half as proficient with vi@ > as a six-month experienced user is with Emacs!  Once a vi user= > sees Emacs in action, they're usually sold on its features.  > ? > The ability to tag functions, structures, etc in modules of aiB > very complex software package and effortlessly hop from functionB > to function and module to module with a few keystrokes is a real@ > time saver, as are the commands for locating matching "{"s and > "("s.l >   8 	I spent a few weeks trying to get everyone to use Emacs@ 	about 10 years ago.  All power vi users.  I printed out several@ 	Emacs "quick start" cards, etc.  Power vi users not interested.A 	I fiddled with Emacs for quite a while, it had alot.  But I kepttA 	finding all the extensions I needed to TPU whenever I needed andsA 	we pulled source code onto NFS mounted partition from Unix to doiA 	the builds on VMS (for the the VMS product of course) so quicklyaD 	gave up on Emacs.  Unix folks can be rather inflexible at times ;-)  ? 	Regarding proficiency, I've seen some very scary macros at the E 	* that the power vi user can come up with... keystroke for keystroke B 	they are very tough to beat... sorta like the power Perl folks or 	power TECO folks I suppose.   				Robr   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:44:30 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n% Subject: Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V?e, Message-ID: <3C34D0BB.EA42265E@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:D >    Which means I'm now thinking of upgrading to Phase IV so my kid >    can run Flight Simulator.  N I had found a way to make it work with Flight, but I recall spending some timeD with NCL, but I never bothered finding out how to make it permanent.  L Upgrade to Decnet-4. It requires much less disk space, is more efficient forN machines with less memory, and unless you really need to have DECNET travel asT TCP-IP packets, there is no need for the extra hassles of DECNET-5 on small systems.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:18:30 -0500n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>L9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedst, Message-ID: <3C34CAA5.7DC1ABCE@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:F >    IMHO, they SHOULD get a VMS blimp.  They should run this stuff asE >    an add in during the Super Bowl.  I really mean the whole of the  >    public.  M Yep, and then have it crash through a building, destroy the building but theni; continue unhurt. With the caption "VMS, truly unstoppable".:  B Oops, the humour woudln't be quite right after Sept 11 :-( :-( :-(   ------------------------------   Date: 3 JAN 2002 18:51:55 GMTt+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>a" Subject: MSCP serving 101 question1 Message-ID: <3JAN02.18515549@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>k  I There has got to be an obvious answer to this problem but I can't see it.e  F I'm trying to help some folks who had a system disk crash but no imageE backup.  The system that crashed is a MicroVAX 3400 with (apparently)rH two DSSI controllers.  A second system (VAXstation 4000-90, VMS 5.5-2H4)G was configured as a boot server and the 3400 was booted as a satellite. F The idea is to MSCP serve the 3400's disks and rebuild the system disk2 from the 4000-90 using INIT and non-image backups.  H The problem is that the 4000-90 is not seeing either of the 3400's disksK (one on each DSSI controller) - ie the disks don't show up with SHOW DEV D.lI The 3400 does see the 4000-90 disks in addition to its own.  I've checked2I MSCP_LOAD (1 on both systems) and MSCP_SERVE_ALL (1 on the 3400, 2 on theu= 4000-90).  I've done SYSGEN AUTOCONFIGURE ALL on the 4000-90.g  ) What else should I be looing at or doing?    Thanks,g Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOV H Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 19:32:48 -0000; From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@computershare.co.uk>a& Subject: Re: MSCP serving 101 questionB Message-ID: <1010086376.14514.0.nnrp-01.c1edba74@news.demon.co.uk>  A do the allocation classes match on the disks and the controllers?    are there any device clashes?   8 "Dave Greenwood" <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> wrote in message+ news:3JAN02.18515549@feda01.fed.ornl.gov...fK > There has got to be an obvious answer to this problem but I can't see it.e >nH > I'm trying to help some folks who had a system disk crash but no imageG > backup.  The system that crashed is a MicroVAX 3400 with (apparently)hJ > two DSSI controllers.  A second system (VAXstation 4000-90, VMS 5.5-2H4)I > was configured as a boot server and the 3400 was booted as a satellite.-H > The idea is to MSCP serve the 3400's disks and rebuild the system disk4 > from the 4000-90 using INIT and non-image backups. > J > The problem is that the 4000-90 is not seeing either of the 3400's disksJ > (one on each DSSI controller) - ie the disks don't show up with SHOW DEV D.K > The 3400 does see the 4000-90 disks in addition to its own.  I've checkedcK > MSCP_LOAD (1 on both systems) and MSCP_SERVE_ALL (1 on the 3400, 2 on thet? > 4000-90).  I've done SYSGEN AUTOCONFIGURE ALL on the 4000-90.  > + > What else should I be looing at or doing?h > 	 > Thanks,d > Dave > --------------; > Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVmJ > Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:54:16 +0000o% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>v& Subject: Re: MSCP serving 101 question& Message-ID: <3C34C4F8.D16E4BA@iee.org>   Dave Greenwood wrote:e  0 > There has got to be an obvious answer to this  > problem but I can't see it.m  1 The obvious answer is "who cares - get the systemo running" :-)  J > The problem is that the 4000-90 is not seeing either of the 3400's disksM > (one on each DSSI controller) - ie the disks don't show up with SHOW DEV D. K > The 3400 does see the 4000-90 disks in addition to its own.  I've checkednK > MSCP_LOAD (1 on both systems) and MSCP_SERVE_ALL (1 on the 3400, 2 on the ? > 4000-90).  I've done SYSGEN AUTOCONFIGURE ALL on the 4000-90.d  2 Since the 3400 sees everything, do everything from4 the 3400. Do a /IMAGE/INIT/VERIFY restore of the .B 2 saveset to the appropriate disk. Copy the VMSxxx.%/ and DECWxxx.% savesets to [000000] on that diski1 (or another 3400 disk that has the space), reboot  the 3400 and off you go.  1 Alternatively run CLUSTER_CONFIG on the VS4000-90n1 and tell it that it will participate in a clusterh/ that involves DSSI. It will set some parameters"3 differently, but I don't recall exactly which ones.    Antonioe   -- .   ---------------l- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgi   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:53:04 +0000n% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>j& Subject: Re: MSCP serving 101 question' Message-ID: <3C34C4B0.2F88EAB7@iee.org>    Dave Greenwood wrote:u  0 > There has got to be an obvious answer to this  > problem but I can't see it.n  1 The obvious answer is "who cares - get the systems running" :-)  J > The problem is that the 4000-90 is not seeing either of the 3400's disksM > (one on each DSSI controller) - ie the disks don't show up with SHOW DEV D.iK > The 3400 does see the 4000-90 disks in addition to its own.  I've checked K > MSCP_LOAD (1 on both systems) and MSCP_SERVE_ALL (1 on the 3400, 2 on thed? > 4000-90).  I've done SYSGEN AUTOCONFIGURE ALL on the 4000-90.e  2 Since the 3400 sees everything, do everything from4 the 3400. Do a /IMAGE/INIT/VERIFY restore of the .B 2 saveset to the appropriate disk. Copy the VMSxxx.%/ and DECWxxx.% savesets to [000000] on that diskt1 (or another 3400 disk that has the space), reboote the 3400 and off you go.  1 Alternatively run CLUSTER_CONFIG on the VS4000-90t1 and tell it that it will participate in a cluster / that involves DSSI. It will set some parametersn3 differently, but I don't recall exactly which ones.    Antonioi   -- l   ---------------"- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgf   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:55:49 GMTi4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>+ Subject: Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloonss0 Message-ID: <3C34B688.C4E0CE07@blueyonder.co.uk>   Bob Koehler wrote: > w > In article <ca_Y7.50491$Sj1.21121439@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  > N > > First, the whole of the public is not the target audience for OpenVMS. (Or > > MVS or NSK, etc).a > H >    Now your being defeatist.  Why shouldn't 6 billion customers exist?  A yes, the "target markets" approach has surely not worked wonders. B Surely raising the general public's awareness to non-MS os's could only be good for said os's?i   --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of p! my employers or service provider.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 16:38:02 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u+ Subject: Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons , Message-ID: <3C34CF37.AE4AB90D@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:rL > First, the whole of the public is not the target audience for OpenVMS. (Or > MVS or NSK, etc).i  N Yes they are. For reasons similar to why itis important to bring back VMS intoI the education sector. It has to be seen as a popular serious server OS to0= counter all the PR damage that was done to it over the years.R  M Someone at a company must suggest "have you looked at Compaq's VMS to comparevM ?" for that company to look into it and see if it might be a viable solution.e  L If I were hired at a company that didn't have any VMS, I would make sure NOTG TO PUSH VMS. It would make ME look bad, legacy etc etc for suggesting a  company buy some old dying OS.  L Compaq must make VMS look moderns and popular if its wants the VMS loyalists= to be able to push it outside of the few remaining VMS shops.-  G Lets face it: Compaq isn't pushing VMS, it is the VMS loyalists who areiH pushing it (and has been the case historically). The problem is that VMSK loyalists are either staying put in the few remaining VMS jobs, or changing>M carreers completely and jumping into NT/UNIX to give them access to many more.M jobs. They have stopped tryong to spread VMS to non VMS jobs because doing sorJ make them less amrketable for jobs when they must convince their employers0 that they have dropped VMS and embraced Unix/NT.  M The Public visibility of VMS won't generate sales directly, but it is still a(- necessary step to put VMS back into the race.w   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 15:44:19 -0600 + From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)>+ Subject: Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons 3 Message-ID: <CKZYHVT9ZZkZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  \ In article <3C34CF37.AE4AB90D@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:0M >> First, the whole of the public is not the target audience for OpenVMS. (Or. >> MVS or NSK, etc). >  > Yes they are.  >a  H 	No they aren't.  No more than the targets for the OSes that Terry used A 	as examples consider the public (at large) as a target audience.rD 	It's called a niche and NSK, OS/390 (aka MVS) and others have their 	niches.   				Robn   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:16:20 -0800 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>t+ Subject: Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloonsr) Message-ID: <3C34D834.9604E7AB@rdrop.com>r   Rob Young wrote: > P >         No they aren't.  No more than the targets for the OSes that Terry usedJ >         as examples consider the public (at large) as a target audience.M >         It's called a niche and NSK, OS/390 (aka MVS) and others have theiri >         niches.o  G If you're happy being stuck in a niche, I'm happy for you.  But there's F no reason for a general purpose OS such as VMS to be stuck in a niche-H especially since the niche is "high availablility", which, I'd think, is  something everyone would desire.  D If I had a consumer who understood the issues, and gave him a choiceE between a household automation system powered by NT/2K/XP or VMS, I'dtE want him to pick VMS and not have to reboot his house every so often..D (Then reset his clocks, VCR, TV, microwave and phone.  After cussingF about the lost messages, he can call the fire and police department toG tell them it was a false alarm... then reboot his car so it'll re-synchi with the house...)  D Yeah, that's a little extreme, maybe.  Give it a few years, though. D Given my current O/S options, I can currently think of more than oneC reason why a household system that controls all that stuff would beuG based on Linux over Windows, and both over VMS because, after all, it'su just a "niche" product.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 23:30:43 GMTo4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>+ Subject: Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloonst0 Message-ID: <3C34E8E1.6C48722F@blueyonder.co.uk>   Dean Woodward wrote: >  > Rob Young wrote: > >)R > >         No they aren't.  No more than the targets for the OSes that Terry usedL > >         as examples consider the public (at large) as a target audience.O > >         It's called a niche and NSK, OS/390 (aka MVS) and others have theira > >         niches.r > I > If you're happy being stuck in a niche, I'm happy for you.  But there'shH > no reason for a general purpose OS such as VMS to be stuck in a niche-J > especially since the niche is "high availablility", which, I'd think, is" > something everyone would desire. > F > If I had a consumer who understood the issues, and gave him a choiceG > between a household automation system powered by NT/2K/XP or VMS, I'diG > want him to pick VMS and not have to reboot his house every so often. F > (Then reset his clocks, VCR, TV, microwave and phone.  After cussingH > about the lost messages, he can call the fire and police department toI > tell them it was a false alarm... then reboot his car so it'll re-synchC > with the house...) > E > Yeah, that's a little extreme, maybe.  Give it a few years, though.8F > Given my current O/S options, I can currently think of more than oneE > reason why a household system that controls all that stuff would beoI > based on Linux over Windows, and both over VMS because, after all, it's  > just a "niche" product.h  I excellent reply, Dean, I'm glad I deleted a previous followup as you said#
 it better.  H Interesting that one of the articles I read recently about M$ insecurityG pointed out how annoying it would be if someone hacked your freezer and K turned it off over the holiday period. Security should ALWAYS be an  issue.u  L Anyway, I hate to bring the car analogy out again, but most people know what: a Porsche is even though they will probably never own one.  t --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  m  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of a! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 18:38:21 -0600i From: rivie@cougar.no.domain+ Subject: Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons=3 Message-ID: <slrna39uvc.730.rivie@cougar.no.domain>=  E In article <3C34E8E1.6C48722F@blueyonder.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn wrote:DN > Anyway, I hate to bring the car analogy out again, but most people know what< > a Porsche is even though they will probably never own one.  C Interestingly, most people that have owned a Porsche didn't know it=@ was one. There's got to be something profound in that somewhere. -- a
 Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu  o    > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----A http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!m> -----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 22:50:11 -0600s+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)r+ Subject: Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloonso3 Message-ID: <X0aRv0cLyV4Q@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  Q In article <3C34D834.9604E7AB@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes:h > Rob Young wrote: >> sQ >>         No they aren't.  No more than the targets for the OSes that Terry usedbK >>         as examples consider the public (at large) as a target audience.iN >>         It's called a niche and NSK, OS/390 (aka MVS) and others have their >>         niches. > > > If you're happy being stuck in a niche, I'm happy for you.    @ 	Sure... a Fortune 500 niche too if broken out, why not?  Tandem> 	would qualify as such and I believe IBM OS/390 and associated+ 	hardware would be a Fortune 100 company...s   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 07:00:21 +0100w1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>1+ Subject: Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloonso5 Message-ID: <3C3544F4.C2B012E2@swissonline.delete.ch>u   Rob Young wrote: > ^ > In article <3C34CF37.AE4AB90D@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: O > >> First, the whole of the public is not the target audience for OpenVMS. (Ori > >> MVS or NSK, etc). > >r > > Yes they are.  > >l > P >         No they aren't.  No more than the targets for the OSes that Terry usedJ >         as examples consider the public (at large) as a target audience.M >         It's called a niche and NSK, OS/390 (aka MVS) and others have theirt >         niches.p > % >                                 Robp  E I'll agree with you Rob.  We don't need to tell John & Mary Doe about03 VMS because we have nothing to offer them directly.i  B We do need to tell the IT industry AT LARGE about it, not just theD existing customers and small niches that Compaq has targeted for it.  F As I've said before (I think), ask someone in IT who doesn't work withD VMS to describe a Galaxy system and I'm sure you will get some blankH stares.  This is what we need to correct.  We need to raise awareness ofA VMS throughout the IT industry.  IMHO we need to start with those G controlling the money (the CIO's) and work outwards from there.  The ITeF professionals need to be educated about VMS and told what the benefits are.       John McL   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:49:11 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>p5 Subject: Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up!l1 Message-ID: <UE2Z7.264$5Y4.5759@news.cpqcorp.net>1  5 You can rename FILENAME.DAT to FileName.Dat on ODS-5.   K Yes, RENAME doesn't like to deal with an attempt to change the file name byhC case only for multiple versions.  Some type of conflict between VMSaF assumptions and UNIX assumptions.  But hey, if you are asking for caseJ preserved, case sensitive behavior - then you are probably doing something0 UNIX like and should set the version limit to 1.   From my COE system disk...   $ dir F*     Directory DKA100:[SYS0.SYSMGR]    0 FOO.bar;2    FOO.bar;1    Foo.Bar;2    Foo.Bar;1   Total of 4 files.i            Bob Koehler wrote in message ...J >In article <eCQOHwpkQeUM@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:t6 >> In article <BFomiOdVIFNQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>,/ koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:X >>H >>>    Yes you can rename FILENAME.DAT to FileName.Dat.  I do it all the time. I >>>    I have a command file which does just htat so I can get around NFSsI >>>    problems (I'm using NFS witin a cluster so my VAX can see my ODS-5e >>>    volumes, sigh). >>>gL >>>    What you can't do is rename just one version to a different case whenK >>>    there are multiple versions.  New versions always assume the case oft >>>    existing versions.  >>I >> What is the syntax for renaming all versions of a file to a new case ?PJ >> RENAME A.B;* a.b;* would be my obvious guess, but I can't make it work. >)A >   In that case, I think you have to use a temporary third name. 3 >   Appearanlty rename works one version at a time.- >-   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 14:10:39 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler),5 Subject: Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up!-3 Message-ID: <mcb+fQB6CWiF@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  i In article <UE2Z7.264$5Y4.5759@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:07 > You can rename FILENAME.DAT to FileName.Dat on ODS-5.e > M > Yes, RENAME doesn't like to deal with an attempt to change the file name byeE > case only for multiple versions.  Some type of conflict between VMS H > assumptions and UNIX assumptions.  But hey, if you are asking for caseL > preserved, case sensitive behavior - then you are probably doing something2 > UNIX like and should set the version limit to 1. >  > From my COE system disk... > 
 > $ dir F* >  >   > Directory DKA100:[SYS0.SYSMGR] >  > 2 > FOO.bar;2    FOO.bar;1    Foo.Bar;2    Foo.Bar;1 >  > Total of 4 files.r  G    So we get this when COE is integrated into "normal" VMS?  Or does ith,    require that we turn on case sensitivity?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:26:29 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>s5 Subject: Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up!s1 Message-ID: <Rb3Z7.268$5Y4.5537@news.cpqcorp.net>0   $ set proc/case=sens/parse=ext  F By default, the normal VMS behavior is preserved.  If you want the newH behavior, you can use the above command for DCL (and system services and* CRTL logicals/calls for program behavior).  J On a COE system that has had the COE Kernel installed and configured, this is done for you automatically.  L Motif windows on a COE system properly configured will show you things like: "/h/SYSMGR/Foo.Bar"-  H Worse - you can embed things like a colon ":" in a filename - talk about sick.a      Bob Koehler wrote in message ...D >In article <UE2Z7.264$5Y4.5759@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge"% <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:b8 >> You can rename FILENAME.DAT to FileName.Dat on ODS-5. >>K >> Yes, RENAME doesn't like to deal with an attempt to change the file namer byF >> case only for multiple versions.  Some type of conflict between VMSI >> assumptions and UNIX assumptions.  But hey, if you are asking for casehC >> preserved, case sensitive behavior - then you are probably doinge	 somethingL3 >> UNIX like and should set the version limit to 1.3 >> >> From my COE system disk...o >> >> $ dir F*F >> >>! >> Directory DKA100:[SYS0.SYSMGR]0 >> >>3 >> FOO.bar;2    FOO.bar;1    Foo.Bar;2    Foo.Bar;1N >> >> Total of 4 files. > H >   So we get this when COE is integrated into "normal" VMS?  Or does it- >   require that we turn on case sensitivity?s >h   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 21:23:10 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i5 Subject: Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up! 3 Message-ID: <uCJtGRhQwXfr@eisner.encompasserve.org>I  i In article <UE2Z7.264$5Y4.5759@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:l  2 > FOO.bar;2    FOO.bar;1    Foo.Bar;2    Foo.Bar;1  + Such a conventional thinker !!!  Where are:r  . FoO.bAr;1, FoO.bAr;2 and FOO.bar;32767   ? :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:01:50 -0500d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s# Subject: Re: OpenVMS : PIPE probleme, Message-ID: <3C34D4C9.439D838F@videotron.ca>   Fabio Cardoso wrote:4 > PIPE TCPIP SHOW SERVICE TELNET/FULL | SEA SYS$PIPE	 > "Peak:"  >  > It doesnt work fine.a  & Cool. Scary in fact. Search is broken.  F If you try to search for "Socket" , it will find it, but the "line" itN displays covers multiple lines of the TCPIP SHOW SERVICE TELNET/FULL output asT if it was a /WINDOW=4 output (4 lines above, 4 lines below the line that was found).  I It won't find ANYTHING  above those lines that are displayed in the above/& example but will find the stuff below.   eg:o   looking for:L Service:, Port:, Inactivity:, Limit:,  any text on those lines is not found. Anything below is found.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:16:44 -0600EC From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com> # Subject: Re: OpenVMS : PIPE problem = Message-ID: <3C34BC2C.8040800@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com>h   Phillip Helbig wrote:   4 >>PIPE TCPIP SHOW SERVICE TELNET/FULL | SEA SYS$PIPE	 >>"Peak:". >>: >>PIPE TCPIP SHOW SERVICE TELNET/FULL | TYPE/PAGE SYS$PIPE >> > ? > Contrast both to the behaviour without a second PIPE command.j > J > Redirect the output to a file.  You will see that it has <CR><LF> in it  > etc. > F > This looks rather ugly, unnecessary and, as your example shows, can F > cause problems.  Is this an artefact of porting the stack from unix?      - Eesh. That is ugly.  However, if you do this:   0 $ TCPIP SHOW SERVICE TELNET/FULL/output=junk.tmp $ search junk.tmp peakC Limit:              50     Active:      1             Peak:       3e  A you're fine.  It's because when TCPIP opens the file it creates aiB STREAM_LF file with carriage return carriage control but when PIPEF opens the file it creates a VFC file with print file carriage control.  E Probably the only reason you get more than one big long record in thes> second case is that each integral I/O creates a new record, so       printf("foo\nbar\n\baz\n");      printf("buz");   would look likeo   foo<CRLF>bar<CRLF>baz<CRLF>a buzr [EOF]l  F on a VFC file (at least one without carriage return carriage control).  @ It seems to me that since the whole purpose of PIPE is to streamE commands together that the files it opens should be stream files, buti( perhaps that would break something else.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 23:21:53 GMTo1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)s# Subject: Re: OpenVMS : PIPE problemn: Message-ID: <a12p2h$3v2$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  , In message <3C34D4C9.439D838F@videotron.ca>,1   JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:I >Fabio Cardoso wrote:y5 >> PIPE TCPIP SHOW SERVICE TELNET/FULL | SEA SYS$PIPES
 >> "Peak:" >> >> It doesnt work fine. >e' >Cool. Scary in fact. Search is broken.d >i  D No, the TCPIP 'SHOW' command is broken, probably due, once again, toJ a programmer assuming the C runtime would do the right thing.  SYS$PIPE is7 a record-oriented device, so the correct way to output:M      Service: TELNET0                               State:     EnabledJ    Port:               23     Protocol:  TCP             Address:  0.0.0.0N    Inactivity:          1     User_name: not defined     Process:  not definedF    Limit:              50     Active:      4             Peak:      10  K is as 5 separate writes to SYS$PIPE.  The TCPIP command is apparently usingmF one big write with embedded carriage control, which is longer than theK 256 character limit of a PIPE record (and is silently dropped).  Try pipingiJ this TCPIP command to "create sys$output" and you'll see the first 5 lines are missing from it as well.  K Of course, in general, doing a QIO for each line of output absolutely killsR performance.      < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929- Ohio State University        |      Internet:oL 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:39:32 -0500O- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> # Subject: Re: OpenVMS : PIPE probleme, Message-ID: <3C3507C3.2E72510A@videotron.ca>   David Jones wrote:M > is as 5 separate writes to SYS$PIPE.  The TCPIP command is apparently usingaH > one big write with embedded carriage control, which is longer than theA > 256 character limit of a PIPE record (and is silently dropped).r  M I am curious as to why the first 5 lines would be dropped instead of the lastaK ones ? Or is it a case of a QIO with more than 256 bytes failing whilst the N remainder of the SHOW SERVICE /FULL is done with QIOS that result in output of less than 256 ?e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:21:32 -0600eC From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com>S# Subject: Re: OpenVMS : PIPE problem = Message-ID: <3C352DCC.8000207@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com>t   JF Mezei wrote:    > David Jones wrote: > M >>is as 5 separate writes to SYS$PIPE.  The TCPIP command is apparently usingoH >>one big write with embedded carriage control, which is longer than theA >>256 character limit of a PIPE record (and is silently dropped).e >> > O > I am curious as to why the first 5 lines would be dropped instead of the lastaM > ones ? Or is it a case of a QIO with more than 256 bytes failing whilst thenP > remainder of the SHOW SERVICE /FULL is done with QIOS that result in output of > less than 256 ?     . I think that's right.  Here's one workarouund:  I $ perl -e "print $1 if `tcpip sh serv telnet/full` =~ m/(Peak:\s+\d+)/s;"t
 Peak:       3h   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:09:17 GMTe, From: "Anthony Ortenzi" <usenet@litfire.com>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demisy- Message-ID: <NT2Z7.144$HX6.124061833@IConNet>:  E "Christian Bau" <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in messagee. news:3C3471E3.B56D1AB0@cbau.freeserve.co.uk...I > I am really wondering if what you interpret as "unwillingness to learn"hI > isn't what I interpret as "unwillingness to put up with crap", which isgB > in my personal observation a strong tendency in Macintosh users.  < They put up with a single-button mouse in a GUI long enough.5 I think that they qualify as having put up with crap.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 14:55:59 +1100e, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demis 8 Message-ID: <jq9a3ugmve7o5c2dbdil0h7lackpq19790@4ax.com>  3 On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:09:17 GMT, "Anthony Ortenzi"e <usenet@litfire.com> wrote:     = >They put up with a single-button mouse in a GUI long enough.t6 >I think that they qualify as having put up with crap.  5 I am not sure that the single button is a real issue.aF My current mouse has 3 buttons and two wheels but I am not really sureB that it really does a lot more that is useful than a sinble button mouse.  D I think that system instability and a dearth of software are more of an issue with the Mac.   ------------------------------  " Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 23:15:08 GMT' From: alexc@world.std.com (Alex Colvin) Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise ofp( Message-ID: <GpDxx8.4787v@world.std.com>  H >> >I've never seen a Mac-fan ... who didnt want to learn about anything	 >> >else.  >> >> --r8 >> "not not" not Algol -- DTSS Algol 60 Reference Manual   >Oh sh.., how embarrassing...uK >And I've even been told by my main supplier that my command of the English  >language is above average...eJ >Anyway, what I mean, was "I've never seen a Mac-fan who did want to learn  J Your command of English probably *is* above average. English negatives areB tricky. Best to avoid them, especiallyto avoid multiple negatives.  K >I didnt want to p... people off (I'm not in the trolling business), but it-M >seems that the kind of people the Mac attracts, is different from country toc< >country. I've truly no idea why. This _is_ meant seriously.  H It wasn't uncommon to find highly technical people here who felt that ifH they must use a personal computer, at least it would be a Mac. A PC feltJ like a workstation, only worse. A Mac felt like something else altogether.  G For that matter, I used to run Tenon's Unix-kernel-as-a-Mac-applicatione on my 68K powerbook.   -- e
 	mac the nafs   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 19:32:00 GMT.& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The    demise oft% Message-ID: <a12bjg$63e@web.nmti.com>o  4 In article <a101oa$nh2qi$1@id-99522.news.dfncis.de>,4 Roland Hutchinson  <rolands.spamtrap@usa.net> wrote:5 > On Wednesday 02 January 2002 16:53, Peter da Silva O > <peter@abbnm.com>wrote:n& > > But MacOS was layers of kludges on > > top of kludges,   ? > This distinguishes it from other long-lived, widely deployed c* > operating systems in precisely what way?  < Most of them have an operating system somewhere under there.   -- y+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.uE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."aL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:54:06 -0700+ From: "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc@primenet.com>hY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise of 	3 Message-ID: <1010098445.526950@nnrp1.phx1.gblx.net>,  2 Are any of you people alert enough to notice which5 newsgroups you are cross-posting to, or bright enoughB8 to figure out that the cross-posting is inappropriate to the subject matter ?  1 Or are you all just stupid little troll-helpers ?e   Follow-ups set.  --3 Dennis O'Connor                   dmoc@primenet.comn3 We don't become a rabid dog to destroy a rabid dog.n   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:32:03 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>NY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cb1 Message-ID: <4h3Z7.269$5Y4.5689@news.cpqcorp.net>s  G Toon Moene wrote in message <3C34B7AE.97A1C19D@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>...  >Malcolm Purvis wrote: > A >> >>>>> "Charles" == Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> writes:  >>= >> Charles> So *not* all Mac-fans are fanatically Mac-only...r >>J >> Why not combine your interests and run Linux on a Mac?  Then you can be looked2 >> upon strangely by both the Mac and Linux camps. >>
 >> $ uname -a F >> Linux co3018576-a 2.2.18-4hpmac #1 Thu Dec 21 15:16:15 MST 2000 ppc unknowns >bH >You bet - here I'm buying a $3000+ laptop and lo and behold, by wanting+ >to run Debian GNU/Linux on it I'm back to:r >sG >1. A vector machine without any graphics (somehow Apple managed to put F >   a graphics card in the latest Titanics that isn't supported by theE >   Linux kernel and/or XFree86 4.1.0 - never change a winning team).s >r  J The myth about XFree86 is that drivers and DDX's are plentiful.  There areL not that many, and even fewer high quality ones - let alone ones with OpenGL& capability (ignoring software MesaGL).  I One thing that limits which cards are used by the Mac is that not all PCIe/ cards contain OpenBoot ROM objects.  See below.R  E >2. One on which I have to toggle the boot command in the front panela >   (Open Firmware - wazdat ?) >e    I OpenBoot is Sun's gift to the world.  Written in FORTH.  So they spun offyI the guy who wrote it into his own company, who convinced Apple to use it.rH Cool idea.  Have the programming documentation.  Not much use unless you! have an Apple system, or a Sparc.i   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 16:14:47 -0600  From: rivie@cougar.no.domainY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cn3 Message-ID: <slrna39mi6.71a.rivie@cougar.no.domain>K  H In article <4h3Z7.269$5Y4.5689@news.cpqcorp.net>, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:K > OpenBoot is Sun's gift to the world.  Written in FORTH.  So they spun offmK > the guy who wrote it into his own company, who convinced Apple to use it.mJ > Cool idea.  Have the programming documentation.  Not much use unless you# > have an Apple system, or a Sparc.c  < If you've found useful programming documentation for Apple's* Open Firmware, you're a better man that I. -- t
 Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edum    > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----A http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!i> -----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:27:55 -0800o& From: name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co 7 Message-ID: <name99-0301021727550001@handma2.apple.com>s  ? In article <3C34D26D.D90A358A@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>, Toon Moene " <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> wrote:   > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > K > > Toon Moene wrote in message <3C34B7AE.97A1C19D@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>...o > K > > >1. A vector machine without any graphics (somehow Apple managed to putOJ > > >   a graphics card in the latest Titanics that isn't supported by theI > > >   Linux kernel and/or XFree86 4.1.0 - never change a winning team).e > D > > The myth about XFree86 is that drivers and DDX's are plentiful.  > B > Perhaps you didn't understand this comment.  Of course I checked@ > beforehand that one could run XFree86 on a Titanium Powerbook. > C > However, Apple managed to change the graphics card *in between my & > checking this and buying the stuff*. > D > Doesn't seem like a clever way to win (repeat) customers to me ...  " I don't understand your complaint.H Between the original TiBook and the new TiBook (Oct 2001 or so) the main changes were.    - speed bumps from 400/500MHz to 550/667MHz     - 667MHz box uses 133MB/s bus>    - both use UniNorth 1.5 (hence rather fast AGP performance)I    - the graphics part was changed (from some ATI part to an nVidia part)n  M All of these changes were listed in the HW docs that can be found anytime at p=    http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/hardware/hardware.html 4 under the button labelled Current Hardware Products.  I Now you might feel upset that Apple did not change the name from Titanium ( Powerbook when they upped the specs, but7    - that's been standard Apple procedure for years nowpK    - I don't think it was any secret that the new Ti Books were different. oI I certainly knew they were different just by the marketing trumpeting the  new speeds.rH (It is irritating for a technical user that there are no obvious "model"G numbers that change when Apple changes the machines. However I've heard G one theory that the reason it's this way is so as not to rub it into tooI buyers that whatever they bought a few months ago is now obsolete; and inlH the same way, not to frighten them into thinking that the new TiBook 120H is somehow different from the old TiBook 100 that they had their eye on,F and so they need to figure out and understand the differences. I think% these are both legitimate arguments.)    Maynard    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:57:34 +0100., From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of cog4 Message-ID: <3C34B7AE.97A1C19D@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>   Malcolm Purvis wrote:i  @ > >>>>> "Charles" == Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> writes: > < > Charles> So *not* all Mac-fans are fanatically Mac-only... > P > Why not combine your interests and run Linux on a Mac?  Then you can be looked1 > upon strangely by both the Mac and Linux camps.n >  > $ uname -aM > Linux co3018576-a 2.2.18-4hpmac #1 Thu Dec 21 15:16:15 MST 2000 ppc unknownb  G You bet - here I'm buying a $3000+ laptop and lo and behold, by wantinge* to run Debian GNU/Linux on it I'm back to:  F 1. A vector machine without any graphics (somehow Apple managed to putE    a graphics card in the latest Titanics that isn't supported by the:D    Linux kernel and/or XFree86 4.1.0 - never change a winning team).  D 2. One on which I have to toggle the boot command in the front panel    (Open Firmware - wazdat ?)e  D 3. And having no clue whatsoever about the physical size of the disk;    inside (1,07 billion 512 blocks ?  You must be kiddin').   C So I'm basically back into the late '80s, early '90s, except that ItF don't have a Cray engineer on site to do the partition calculation for me.h   Yeah, right.   -- nG Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290m6 Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG  Maartensdijk, The NetherlandsG Maintainer, GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.html E Join GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction)a   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 19:46:06 GMT.& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coo% Message-ID: <a12cdu$71u@web.nmti.com>>  , In article <3C33F819.74DF6DDD@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:N > Peter da Silva wrote:IN > > Mac? Quality? Well, maybe in the future, now they finally have an OS to goP > > along with the great GUI. But MacOS was layers of kludges on top of kludges,P > > and it's a tribute to the quality of Apple's developers that they managed to8 > > keep it from turning into a mess worse than Windows.  N > The kernel may have been flawed without real multitasking, and they may haveP > taken a strange decision to base the API on PASCAL calling standards, but theyO > had established standards back in 1984 and there are some programs that still 
 > work today.   H The GUI was a brilliant piece of work, yes. The original API was as goodL as I've seen given the restrictions of the original hardware, except for theJ conspicuous lack of WaitNextEvent (and that was quickly fixed)... and theyG have done a good job of retaining compatibility with that original API.   L The problem was there was pretty much no operating system under the GUI, andK they had to fit everything that became MacOS into whatever hooks they couldr discover in the GUI API.  O So right from the start, the actual OS had to be cobbled together from kludges.t  L And yes, they've pulled it off amazingly well, but I still wouldn't call theL result a "quality" OS. Luckily the competition have been Microsoft (who haveN an even worse pile of kludges, with less cleverness involved in fixing it, andL who have according to Eller and Ullman been suffering from Bill Gates' shortK lived Macophilia and his insistence that they copy Apple's kludges in earlymH versions of Windows... as well as keeping all their own), companies withJ a few brilliant developers (Amiga, for example) who couldn't design a goodL looking GUI if you *gave* them Michael Whelan, Frank Lloyd Wright, and BuckyI Fuller to help, and hardware companies who want Big Bucks for their Boxest (you know who...).   -- g+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.tE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:51:41 +0100d, From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of cop4 Message-ID: <3C34D26D.D90A358A@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  I > Toon Moene wrote in message <3C34B7AE.97A1C19D@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>...p  I > >1. A vector machine without any graphics (somehow Apple managed to putlH > >   a graphics card in the latest Titanics that isn't supported by theG > >   Linux kernel and/or XFree86 4.1.0 - never change a winning team).n  B > The myth about XFree86 is that drivers and DDX's are plentiful.   @ Perhaps you didn't understand this comment.  Of course I checked> beforehand that one could run XFree86 on a Titanium Powerbook.  A However, Apple managed to change the graphics card *in between mye$ checking this and buying the stuff*.  B Doesn't seem like a clever way to win (repeat) customers to me ...   -- eG Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290D6 Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG  Maartensdijk, The NetherlandsG Maintainer, GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.html E Join GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:21:55 -0500r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>uY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of cos, Message-ID: <3C34D97D.AD2114E6@videotron.ca>   Peter da Silva wrote:QN > The problem was there was pretty much no operating system under the GUI, andM > they had to fit everything that became MacOS into whatever hooks they could@ > discover in the GUI API.  L Correct, the kernel was lacking. However, the end result is that because theJ API was of generally good qualilty, applications were far more robust thanK stuff on MS machines. Where the MAC started to go down is with applicationso% that were ported from MS to the MAC. e  K But for native applications such as Photoshop, Page Maker etc, the mac is a L far superior platform than Windows. But younger applications designed to run9 on Windows (Real Player etc), the reliability is pitiful.e  I Remember that a user doesn't need to know about the OS, he just wants hisO applications to work.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 23:11:09 GMTs) From: jchausler <jchausler@earthlink.net>-Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co-- Message-ID: <3C34E239.BEA9B332@earthlink.net>0   "Keith R. Williams" wrote:  G > In article <3C3377CE.B3A60C5D@earthlink.net>, jchausler@earthlink.net 	 > says...r > >d > >r > > Charles Richmond wrote:s > >DJ > > > I also have a Linux box, but it is *not* attached to the 'net. And II > > > am *very* interested in learning all sorts of new computer stuff. IoI > > > am also interested in learning all sorts of *old* computer stuff...l9 > > > like about Bendix machines, LGP-30's, and others...p > > C > > If you ever find out anything about Bendix G-20's, particularlya? > > about any other than the three which were at CIT/CMU in the # > > mid and late 60's, let me know.f >sA > There were two Bendix (one had a GE logo, IIRC) G-20s in the EEeF > department at Illinois (UIUC) when I was there in the early 70's.  II > believe one was bought as scrap ($.10/lb). I have no idea what happenedr
 > to them. >h  B I was unaware that GE ever got involved with G-20's.  I also neverA understood why Control Data acquired the Bendix computer divisionr? as they seemed to be doing OK themselves and it does not appearGA that Bendix was (although the G-15 was somewhat popular).  I lastcD saw the CMU ones in late 1976 in an old bank building in Pittsburgh.C The .sig I use in this ng comes from the file control language fromt CMU's G-20's (written at CMU).   Chris  AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE  $$   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:17:57 -0500w- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ! Subject: TCPIP: SHOW HOST problemT, Message-ID: <3C3510C1.90AFC7B6@videotron.ca>   VMS 7.2, VAX, TCPIP 5.0r   TCPIP> SHOW HOST  ? It lists all the hosts I have locally defined, and then issues:@  ( %TCPIP-W-NORECORD, information not found@ -TCPIP-E-BIND)READERR, error reading/interpreting query response  M The machine acts as a master with forwarding. It responds well to DNS requestm/ from other machines on the LAN (and to itself).i  H Where does SHOW HOST look to get its information ? And where would it be, looking after having shown the local hosts ?  M Also, while I am at it, it is possible to display the cached entries that thegN DNS server has accumulated ? (i.e. the entries it got from an external DNS for. which it maintains non authoritative answers).   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 14:51:16 +1100e, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>5 Subject: Terraserver ( was Re: The demise of compaq )e8 Message-ID: <uk9a3u0t14margeqmvefmcf7op032gfgkq@4ax.com>  C On 3 Jan 2002 19:54:35 GMT, peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:   K >Microsoft was using this as a technology demo. They had two Alpha based NToM >servers sitting in front of a farm of (IIRC) 40 Proliants running SQL ServeraK >to deliver the maps. The big deal was they could serve a terabyte a day of- >data out of a database   H >Meanwhile Walnut Creek CDROM was serving 1.5 terabytes a day out of oneI >dual-Pentium-something box with a gigabit ethernet card running FreeBSD.   D Yeah, I remember logging onto the Walnut Creek site and finding over8 250 others logged in AND getting decent download speeds.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 19:54:35 GMT3& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)! Subject: Re: The demise of compaq % Message-ID: <a12ctr$7j2@web.nmti.com>h  . In article <t8o01a.rbe.ln@escape.shannon.net>,6 Charles Shannon Hendrix <shannon@widomaker.com> wrote:K > I've heard the same.  One paper I read on the net said that the Microsoft'H > farm could be replaced by either a very small cluster of high-end UNIXG > servers or a single IBM mainframe, and at far lower yearly costs, and ' > probably a lower total hardware cost.    Anyone remember Terraserver?  J Microsoft was using this as a technology demo. They had two Alpha based NTL servers sitting in front of a farm of (IIRC) 40 Proliants running SQL ServerJ to deliver the maps. The big deal was they could serve a terabyte a day ofF data out of a database (never mind that it was all static data with noH dependencies between sections of the database... they could have done itK all as flat files in directories named from the coordinates of the images).r  G Meanwhile Walnut Creek CDROM was serving 1.5 terabytes a day out of oneeH dual-Pentium-something box with a gigabit ethernet card running FreeBSD.   -- o+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.-E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."rL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:06:54 GMT + From: Anne & Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com>1! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqo) Message-ID: <uu1u39jit.fsf@earthlink.net>   $ jeffj@panix.com (Jeff Jonas) writes:= > I have hurt feelings about the way IBM connectivity evolved-' > since I worked for related companies.eJ > AT&T Teletype made IBM compatible terminals and controllers that we usedI > extensively internally, yet few folks outside of AT&T were brave enough2B > to use non-IBM terminals since IBM was apparently very harsh and1 > downgraded service to folks with mixed venders.o  A as an aside ... besides the issue with middleware and SAA ... the 1 communication division didn't particular like me.e  A as an undergraduate, there were four of us that built our own IBM'@ controller (reverse engineered channel protocol, built wire-wrapA channel attachment board, etc); it was a replacement for the 2702e= terminal controller and is also credited with originating the : ibm plug-compatible controller (PCM) business, misc. refs:0 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#360pcm  C another in the late '80s was I was also trying to do a project thattA would port a pu4/pu5 emulator to a rios/power processor; it wouldoB have had 10times the performance, 10times the function, 1/10th theC cost, 10times the availability, etc of the communication division'sRF 37x5 boxes (and would have also helped with distributed/network access to the backend disk farms):o& http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#67& http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#70  F and about the same time, I also did the RFC1044 implementation and wasE "tuning" the thruput at cray research between a Cray and a 4341-classY? processor so that it was running at 4341 hardware channel speedeD (1mbyte/sec) ... using a nominal amount of the 4341.  By comparison,B the communication division wanted to see that TCP thruput was lessB than LU6.2 thruput ... i.e. the base non-RFC1044 support got about= 44kbytes/sec and would consume nearly a full 3090 processor).i. http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hsdt( http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm  F speaking of AT&T ... I had helped supply a customized operating system: to AT&T longlines in the 70s ... into which it effectivelyE disappeared.  Nearly ten years later the IBM branch office tracked mesE down (in a completely different job) to try and help AT&T get off theeB kernel. the operating system continued to run on new generation ofD processors for nearly ten years ... but finally a processor came outE which the modified operating system wouldn't automatically migrate tomD ... which met that IBM wasn't going to sell longlines new processors: unless something could be done about the operating system.   random longlines refs:1 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#14 characters.B http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#35 Mainframes & Unix (and TPF)? http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/97.html#15 OSes commerical, history3_ http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000.html#5 IBM XT/370 and AT/370 (was Re: Computer of the century)hi http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#60 360 Architecture, Multics, ... was (Re: X86 ultimate CISC? No.) Y http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001f.html#3 Oldest program you've written, and still in use?t7 http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#4 Buffer overflow    --  H Anne & Lynn Wheeler   | lynn@garlic.com -  http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 18:06:21 -0500' From: "Bill Marcum" <bmarcum@iglou.com>e! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqt' Message-ID: <3c34e34e_3@news.iglou.com>v  E Charlie Gibbs wrote in message <1773.766T1538T6675299@sky.bus.com>...p >It's aeI >lot easier to sell an idea if you don't have to contend with spoilsportsn: >who can draw on experience to tell you why it won't work. >6H Sometimes experience only tells you why it wouldn't have worked 10 or 20 years ago...   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 14:50:43 +1100t, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>! Subject: Re: The demise of compaqt8 Message-ID: <lh9a3uktbr160km3i7qad95ddgpt0vqkoa@4ax.com>  C On 3 Jan 2002 19:54:35 GMT, peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:o  K >Microsoft was using this as a technology demo. They had two Alpha based NT M >servers sitting in front of a farm of (IIRC) 40 Proliants running SQL ServereK >to deliver the maps. The big deal was they could serve a terabyte a day off >data out of a database   H >Meanwhile Walnut Creek CDROM was serving 1.5 terabytes a day out of oneI >dual-Pentium-something box with a gigabit ethernet card running FreeBSD.b  D Yeah, I remember logging onto the Walnut Creek site and finding over8 250 others logged in AND getting decent download speeds.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 23:16:11 GMTs  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs+ Message-ID: <3C34E68C.27032F1D@prodigy.net>a   jlsue wrote: >  <snip>D > The point is that, contrary to other comments here, there are some/ > serious $$$ being spent on VMS systems still.  <snip>    The rush of orders at last call?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 21:57:10 -0500+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>s8 Subject: RE: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 LayoffsT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B4A@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  ' >>> The rush of orders at last call?<<<e  H More like they have business issues they need to fix now and in 3 years,E IF they need to replace these systems and IF the newer IPF systems atuD that time do not exceed EV7 systems, then they will buy EV7 systems.  C Right now, I have 2 mission critical VAX to Alpha migrations in the5D works, one large consolidation project (over 100 quite small VAX/oldC Alpha servers being consolidated down to a very small number of bigtF Alpha's at 2 sites) and another project whereby a Customer is planningG to replace 20 4100's / CI clusters with 20 ES45's / SAN clusters acrossh the country.  F Thats not to say that the VMS business has not been hurt by the recentE IT downturn (I know it has since it hurt one of my very large TelecomwG Mfging Cust's big time), but As Fred and Jeff stated, lots of VMS stuffi is happening.=20   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantb Compaq Canada Corp.m Professional Servicese Voice: 613-592-4660s Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----' From: cjt [mailto:cheljuba@prodigy.net]M Sent: January 3, 2002 6:16 PMn To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com28 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs     jlsue wrote: >=20 <snip>D > The point is that, contrary to other comments here, there are some/ > serious $$$ being spent on VMS systems still.  <snip>    The rush of orders at last call?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:10:47 GMTR# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" > Message-ID: <X02Z7.126486$pa1.40341735@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C33F4D6.AA696134@videotron.ca...K > If you're going to go to full page ad, I would also show to the world theiJ > stupidity of having killed a perfectly good architecture (Alpha) just to helpF > a competitor (Intel), and of constantly helping Microsoft instead of focusing& > on its own more profitable products. >.: > Time to show the world what Compaq has been squandering.    K I lament the actions Compaq has taken with Alpha, in particular making suchiI a wholesale commitment to a chip that has yet to perform adequately. ThataL said, Alpha itself was not as dramatic a leap forward from VAX as we had allG hoped at the time it was first released. I'm skeptical, but not withoutcI hope. Digital made StrongARM - now Intel makes it. It's still a good chipt$ despite the new logo on the outside.  K Probably 60-80% of Alpha customers could live with the performance of a 2-8IE processor Itanic-based system when it is finally used with OpenVMS inhK several years time, at probably a lower cost than an equivalent performancetK Alpha system. Remember that Intel will have certain economies of scale thatSL Dec/Compaq never had in the fabrication process. So for these customers, TCOA may in fact be lower for a specified performance than with Alpha..  I For the other 20-40%, those customers will need many more processors than H that, and that's where the cost really will begin to change. It's almostK always harder and more costly to scale from around the 8 processor range toaG at 32-64 cpu system, and probably more prone to reliability issues. I'd G rather have a simpler architecture with faster processors, than have aniJ order of magnitude more processors to worry about for the same horsepower.    G I trust the Alpha chip engineers and OpenVMS development group. If theyeI candidly, and with full disclosure, tell me that Itanic is going to be okhK with OpenVMS and that I'll windup with a lower TCO, then that's effectivelylK the same proposition that DEC sold us when we switched from Vax to Alpha. I H can live with that, as long as I still have a living, breathing, growing+ OpenVMS to run and expand my business with.   H But if Compaq Marketing and Executive Management tell me the same thing,H ....well after the events, promises, and lies of the past few years, I'dK have a hard time believing them. Truly an example of a case where 'shootingn the messenger' is justified.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:11:49 GMT.# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>a5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"p> Message-ID: <V12Z7.126487$pa1.40342964@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message)8 news:g0PY7.50263$Sj1.20733142@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... >pF > Touche! I cannot respond with rapier-like wit. And as an aside and aI > heads-up, sources close to SKC can reveal that Compaq will display someoK > rapier-like wit on 29 January with the release of the first member of thei > QuickBlade product family.    + Might they be 'slashing' their own throats?o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:57:33 GMTh* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"tB Message-ID: <xl5Z7.335753$C8.24624673@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message8 news:X02Z7.126486$pa1.40341735@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...   ...2  H > I lament the actions Compaq has taken with Alpha, in particular making suchK > a wholesale commitment to a chip that has yet to perform adequately. ThateJ > said, Alpha itself was not as dramatic a leap forward from VAX as we had alle* > hoped at the time it was first released.  K Alpha, at first release, was a performance leader in the industry.  Itanic,tK at first release, is 'way back in the pack (save for FP-style applications, - which aren't characteristic of server loads).e  E If Alpha wasn't 'as dramatic a leap forward' as you had hoped, it wassJ nonetheless a step forward from VAX.  Itanic is a major step backward from Alpha.  H Your attempt to draw parallels between the two migrations seems severely flawed.s    I'm skeptical, but not without K > hope. Digital made StrongARM - now Intel makes it. It's still a good chip & > despite the new logo on the outside.  L That's because it was an already-good design that Intel didn't screw up whenL it acquired it.  By contrast, Itanic is a fundamentally poor design that canI at best be improved to mediocrity by the Alpha talent Intel has acquired.n   > I > Probably 60-80% of Alpha customers could live with the performance of ae 2-8sG > processor Itanic-based system when it is finally used with OpenVMS inl > several years time,t  J If that turns out to be the case, it means that those same customers couldL have lived with the performance of a 1- to 2-processor EV8 system, since EV8I would have enjoyed over a 3:1 per-chip performance advantage over Madison J (the only Itanic family member identified for the time frame you mention).  8  at probably a lower cost than an equivalent performance > Alpha system.s  J Can you even find a 4-processor *IA32* system today that costs less than aJ DS10?  Supporting more processors (because each delivers less performance)K drives systems prices up *far* faster than simple per-processor costs wouldn suggest.  H Not to mention the fact that Itanic prices aren't likely to get anywhere near IA32 prices - ever.  >  Remember that Intel will have certain economies of scale that2 > Dec/Compaq never had in the fabrication process.  K If you mean the *processor* fabrication process, dream on.  Itanic consumes K considerably more chip area (on a processor-to-processor basis; if you wantvH to compare the amount of chip area Itanic requires to provide equivalentH *performance*, multiply by another factor of 3+) than Alpha does (EV7 isL much larger than EV6, but incorporates a lot more on-chip 'glue' that ItanicF requires separate chips for).  So the raw fab cost of Itanic (not evenE considering the performance disparity) will wipe out even significant0 economies of scale.r  E So will the already-sunk development costs.  If you think *Alpha* wasrI expensive at perhaps $200 million annually, think again when comparing it  with Itanic.  G When it comes to *system* fabrication, per-processor cost is a lot lesssI important than how many processors it takes to attain a given performancerL level, as noted above.  Even a custom single-processor board can easily costH less than a 'commodity' 4-processor board - and Alpha boards could stillK have used a great many commodity components, as they do today, to keep costeJ differentials minimal even when compared to commodity boards with the same1 number of processors (and far lower performance).t  K 'Blade' server approaches do affect such comparisons, of course.  What theyxK do is drive up the entry-level price a *lot*, because of the basic hardware-F required to allow future expansion (for an example today, consider theD difference between an ES45 and a half-populated GS80 - or, IIRC, theJ difference between a GS80 and a half-populated GS160).  It's also startingH to appear likely that the Blade approach may hobble the effectiveness ofK EV7's on-chip SMP glue - because if the same architecture is being used forNE both EV7 and Itanic (which lacks such glue) then (pardon me for beingSL cynical) it seems unlikely that inter-Blade comm optimizations for EV7-styleJ SMP were included.  So if Itanic Blade servers don't turn out to be as farD behind EV7 Blade servers as the relative processor performance wouldG suggest, it may well be because no attempt was made to leverage Alpha'st6 assets (aren't self-fulfilling prophecies wonderful?).  K Of course, you'll likely have to wait until Madison before there's any hope J of seeing Itanic in a Blade environment:  dense packaging isn't compatible4 with Merced/McKinley power dissipation requirements.    So for these customers, TCOC > may in fact be lower for a specified performance than with Alpha.w  E Where a 32-bit solution will do the job, it's easy to believe that an E IA32-based SMP could deliver a given performance level at lower TCO -lB because each IA32 processor might approach an Alpha in performanceF (especially with the advent of 'Hyper-Threading').  Given Alpha's 3+:1L per-processor performance advantage over Itanic, however, Alpha would almost; certainly have enjoyed a considerable TCO advantage over ano; equal-performance Itanic solution, rather than the reverse.r  I Alpha might have had to fear AMD's Hammer as a 64-bit TCO competitor, and L there's a good chance that if Hammer lives up to anything like its potentialH it will swiftly and ignominiously drive Itanic into the ocean floor - an! appropriate resting place for it.i   > K > For the other 20-40%, those customers will need many more processors thandJ > that, and that's where the cost really will begin to change. It's almostJ > always harder and more costly to scale from around the 8 processor range toI > at 32-64 cpu system, and probably more prone to reliability issues. I'd I > rather have a simpler architecture with faster processors, than have anlL > order of magnitude more processors to worry about for the same horsepower.  L The same point I made above - but you seemed to ignore the fact that it alsoG applies when comparing a uniprocessor Alpha to a 4-P Itanic or a dual-P  Alpha to an 8-P Itanic.    >h > I > I trust the Alpha chip engineers and OpenVMS development group. If theytK > candidly, and with full disclosure, tell me that Itanic is going to be ok A > with OpenVMS and that I'll windup with a lower TCO, then that's& effectivelyeK > the same proposition that DEC sold us when we switched from Vax to Alpha.   F Unfortunately, the disclosure so far has been close to nil.  The AlphaG engineers who went to Intel have mostly kept mum publicly while leaking'L their disgust with Compaq's decision and its attempts to cover it with falseL performance and/or financial FUD.  The VMS engineers have simply said "TrustI us" (which is to say, trust Compaq, as they seem to) - and while in othermK circumstances one might be inclined to trust those engineers in the currentlF situation I suggest that issues such as those I've raised above reallyL require more substantive answers (at least in part because they're the kindsG of issues similar Compaq engineers were presenting as Alpha's long-term  advantages until June 25th).   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 17:40:41 -0800t( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"r< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201031740.22ea5df@posting.google.com>  n John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message news:<3C33F6A0.B4BBDA74@swissonline.delete.ch>... > Bob Ceculski wrote:n > >  >  ... > > L > > intel better be friendly to VMS ... it is their ticket into the world ofI > > high end computing, not windoze!  And if they treat us vms users likefK > > dogs, we will eventually leave for another vendor and hopefully by then  > > freevms or linux(gag!) !!! > I > As the article said, Intel has what it wants so why should it play balln > with anyone ?l > B > It won't endorse the fact that VMS play an important part in itsJ > operations but then what difference does saying it or not saying it mean > to Intel ? > G > "We will leave for another vendor" ?  Hardly.  Don't they have 90% ofe > the market ? > C > What happens if there is no VMS to run their processing (or is itm> > process control ?) on ?  That might be more interesting .... >  >  > John  M we are talking about the high end market, were they would like itanium to be, L and vms is their chance to gain a big foothold in that market, otherwise IBM will take over!g   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 23:47:15 GMTs) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)t* Subject: TSM Installation Problem on Alpha1 Message-ID: <3c34ebc9.347898271@news.wcc.govt.nz>r  	 Hi Chaps.w  ? Various Alphas - all running VMS 7.2-1 and DECNet OSI 7.2 ECO 3w  C Installed TSM on our Development Alpha - no problems. Installed 2.1i then 2.1 ECO 6.hF We have two Production Alphas (DEC3000s) each has its own System Disk.1 Each has identical patches, layered products etc.   E I thought the TSM ECO 6 kit was a full kit so I tried just installingn' that and it failed. Error listed below.t@ Ooops. Okay, tried installing vanilla 2.1 - failed with the same error.  D Okay, over to the very similar Production box, installed vanilla 2.1' with no problems followed by 2.1 ECO 6.-  C So, any clues as to why I can't install 2.1 on the other Productionb System.lF It didn't seem to have done much in the install process. It did create& the sys$common:[decserver] directory.   C Any ideas, guesses as what I might need to undo? Not really keen on * doing an image restore of the System Disk.   TIAp   Rob.  
 Error was:  A         Terminal Server Manager requires a system directory namediB         [DECSERVER] as a location for the TSM management directory	 database.-: %VMSINSTAL-I-SYSDIR, This product creates system directory [DECSERVER].5 %SYSTEM-F-OPCDEC, opcode reserved to Digital fault ate  PC=0000000000031B08, PS=0000001B  2   Improperly handled condition, image exit forced.1     Signal arguments:   Number = 0000000000000003)1                         Name   = 000000000000043Cg1                                  0000000000031B08i1                                  000000000000001Bg       Register dump:9     R0  = 0000000000021B5C  R1  = 0000000000000001  R2  =a 000000007B5334A89     R3  = 0000000000021880  R4  = 00000000000118B0  R5  =n 00000000000218889     R6  = 00000000000119C4  R7  = 0000000000000000  R8  =e 00000000000000009     R9  = FFFFFFFFFFFFEBAC  R10 = 00021B6000000041  R11 =e 000000007FFCE3E09     R12 = 0000000000000000  R13 = 000000007AF3A330  R14 =e 00000000000102309     R15 = 000000007AF39990  R16 = 0000000000021880  R17 =s 00000000000000009     R18 = 000000007AE7D908  R19 = 0000000000000001  R20 =g 000000007AE7D9089     R21 = 0000000000000800  R22 = 00000000000119C2  R23 =  00000000000105709     R24 = 000000007B533300  R25 = 0000000000000001  R26 =o FFFFFFFF8088B9909     R27 = 0000000000010570  R28 = 0000000000031B00  R29 =r 000000007AE7D9009     SP  = 000000007AE7D900  PC  = 0000000000031B08  PS  =  000000000000001B   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 00:15:53 GMTm) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)5. Subject: Re: TSM Installation Problem on Alpha1 Message-ID: <3c34f2e7.349720211@news.wcc.govt.nz>a  ) Additional info after a bit more testing.i  # The error is happening at the line:r  7  MESSAGE/OBJECT=VMI$KWD:TSM$MSG.OBJ VMI$KWD:TSM$MSG.MSGI  : Unpacked the Save Set to a test directory. The results....  " ELVIS  set watch/class=major file ELVIS  sh def#   DSA1100:[CSC.SYSTEM.BUXTON2R.TSM]h. ELVIS  message/object=tsm$msg.obj tsm$msg.msg@ %XQP, Thread #0, Access MESSAGE.EXE;1 (810,1,0) Status: 000000015 %XQP, Thread #0, Lookup  (759,461,0) Status: 00000001n5 %XQP, Thread #0, Lookup  (759,461,0) Status: 00000001eB %XQP, Thread #0, Access TSM$MSG.MSG;1 (759,461,0) Status: 00000001? %XQP, Thread #0, Control function  (759,461,0) Status: 00000001u5 %SYSTEM-F-OPCDEC, opcode reserved to Digital fault atu  PC=0000000000031B08, PS=0000001B  2   Improperly handled condition, image exit forced.1     Signal arguments:   Number = 0000000000000003 1                         Name   = 000000000000043Cm1                                  0000000000031B08 1                                  000000000000001B        Register dump:9     R0  = 0000000000021B5C  R1  = 0000000000000001  R2  =r 000000007B5334A89     R3  = 0000000000021880  R4  = 00000000000118B0  R5  =m 00000000000218889     R6  = 00000000000119C4  R7  = 0000000000000000  R8  =a 00000000000000009     R9  = FFFFFFFFFFFFEBAC  R10 = 00021B6000000041  R11 =  000000007FFCE3E09     R12 = 0000000000000000  R13 = 000000007AF3A330  R14 =- 00000000000102309     R15 = 000000007AF39990  R16 = 0000000000021880  R17 =m 0000000000000000   8 Yet I can do this command on our other Production Alpha.F Checked and Message.EXE are the same on both machines. As mentioned in; the earlier Post, Patches are the same on the two machines.3   They also share a common UAF.   < Any pointers would be useful. I'm running out of guesses....   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 00:31:23 -0000; From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@computershare.co.uk> . Subject: Re: TSM Installation Problem on Alpha@ Message-ID: <1010104291.517.0.nnrp-02.c1edba74@news.demon.co.uk>  L I think TSM cares about logicals like mom$mumble. Just a thought off the top
 of my head  6 "Rob Buxton" <rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz> wrote in message+ news:3c34f2e7.349720211@news.wcc.govt.nz...l+ > Additional info after a bit more testing.  >m% > The error is happening at the line:t >s9 >  MESSAGE/OBJECT=VMI$KWD:TSM$MSG.OBJ VMI$KWD:TSM$MSG.MSGi > < > Unpacked the Save Set to a test directory. The results.... >p$ > ELVIS  set watch/class=major file > ELVIS  sh def% >   DSA1100:[CSC.SYSTEM.BUXTON2R.TSM]o0 > ELVIS  message/object=tsm$msg.obj tsm$msg.msgB > %XQP, Thread #0, Access MESSAGE.EXE;1 (810,1,0) Status: 000000017 > %XQP, Thread #0, Lookup  (759,461,0) Status: 00000001y7 > %XQP, Thread #0, Lookup  (759,461,0) Status: 00000001sD > %XQP, Thread #0, Access TSM$MSG.MSG;1 (759,461,0) Status: 00000001A > %XQP, Thread #0, Control function  (759,461,0) Status: 00000001e7 > %SYSTEM-F-OPCDEC, opcode reserved to Digital fault atr" > PC=0000000000031B08, PS=0000001B > 4 >   Improperly handled condition, image exit forced.3 >     Signal arguments:   Number = 0000000000000003s3 >                         Name   = 000000000000043Cc3 >                                  0000000000031B08u3 >                                  000000000000001Bt >p >     Register dump:; >     R0  = 0000000000021B5C  R1  = 0000000000000001  R2  =  > 000000007B5334A8; >     R3  = 0000000000021880  R4  = 00000000000118B0  R5  =o > 0000000000021888; >     R6  = 00000000000119C4  R7  = 0000000000000000  R8  =  > 0000000000000000; >     R9  = FFFFFFFFFFFFEBAC  R10 = 00021B6000000041  R11 =l > 000000007FFCE3E0; >     R12 = 0000000000000000  R13 = 000000007AF3A330  R14 =  > 0000000000010230; >     R15 = 000000007AF39990  R16 = 0000000000021880  R17 =  > 0000000000000000 >s: > Yet I can do this command on our other Production Alpha.H > Checked and Message.EXE are the same on both machines. As mentioned in= > the earlier Post, Patches are the same on the two machines.T >y > They also share a common UAF.t >n> > Any pointers would be useful. I'm running out of guesses.... >    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 01:32:43 GMTa From: joell@mindspring.com  Subject: Re: TT devices missing?. Message-ID: <3c34ffb4.6184118@news.alltel.net>  B Console terminal should show up as OPA0, TTA0 is probably the COM2B port. Do SHOW DEVICE/FULL TTA0, does it show an owner process. The= console port would show some process id as owner of the port.a  F Having problem with console graphics display? Are you running MultinetA IP? If you are, you need V4.3 to be compatible with VMS 7.3. AlsohF apply patch UCXDRIVER-050_A043, there is a problem with Decwindows andF Multinet that is resolved by this patch. This manifests itself only ifC you have Multinet startup in the SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM. Comment out thesE Multinet startup line and it should start Decwindows ok. Applying the-; patch will allow you to start Multinet in the startup file.     4 On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 16:17:09 +0100, "Willem Grooters"  <wgrooters@vxcomapny.com> wrote:  
 >Hello there,. > * >I've a strange thing I cannot resolve.... >A	 >Problem:rG >Given a PWS500au - two COMports, of which one (I believe it;s COM1) ispI >connected to a PC, running a terminal emulator used as console (reuqiredoK >once since there were problems with the video in the PWS), running VMS7.3. M >I want to connect a modem to the second COM-port (COM2, having modem controltM >(I hope)) bit nowhere I find TTA1, TTB0 .... The only one in VMS seems to becL >TTA0 (as a result of "show device T") - which is the console: Show terminal >gives "TTA0" as well.8 >Where has TTA1 (or TTB0, or any other TT: device) gone? >i >Willem Grooters >Willem@Grooters.100.nlr >t >t >  >w >r >e   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 13:51:31 -0600c- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)n  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig3 Message-ID: <6m+q7h6mr2Da@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  w In article <01KCNA6PJBKM8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes: E >> http://www.cnn.com/1999/TECH/computing/12/20/bigdig.idg/index.html  > B > Do others also have the "LATEST HEADLINES:" in Portuguese?  Why?  	 1. Not I.c  3 2. Because I disable Java, Javascript and cookies ?    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:23:57 GMTe' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net>   Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig+ Message-ID: <3C34B04E.B93B96C6@pacbell.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > k > In article <u%_Y7.251$5Y4.4973@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:nA > > Someone pointed me at this recently...  read down to the end.  > >bF > > http://www.cnn.com/1999/TECH/computing/12/20/bigdig.idg/index.html >  >    Where'd they buy that PC? > D >    OK, I'll blame that one on Ms. Sykes.  Maybe Compaq can add the5 >    surrounding sentences to their next add campain.i Please don't blame a Sykes... 	 Don Sykeso   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 14:14:04 -0600s- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig3 Message-ID: <cRmfCdLYYQu$@eisner.encompasserve.org>q  U In article <3C34B04E.B93B96C6@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> writes:,   > Please don't blame a Sykes...d > Don Sykesh  A    OK, but will you promise not to blame me for the beer in Erie?t   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:08:26 -0500,- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig, Message-ID: <3C34D655.31401C63@videotron.ca>  F > > http://www.cnn.com/1999/TECH/computing/12/20/bigdig.idg/index.html  L Montreal has had an underground highway with exits in them for a few decadesF already. (Ville Marie expressway). Beware of fancy signs, they tend to distract drivers.a  L And as far as the mention of VMS, it is most interesting that they mentionedP workstations, the very market that Compaq's isn't interested in pushing VMS for.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 07:02:18 +0100r1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>e  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig5 Message-ID: <3C35456A.D005BFC6@swissonline.delete.ch>o   JF Mezei wrote:a > H > > > http://www.cnn.com/1999/TECH/computing/12/20/bigdig.idg/index.html > N > Montreal has had an underground highway with exits in them for a few decadesH > already. (Ville Marie expressway). Beware of fancy signs, they tend to > distract drivers.s > N > And as far as the mention of VMS, it is most interesting that they mentionedR > workstations, the very market that Compaq's isn't interested in pushing VMS for.    ? I do love it when customers use VMS in "non-approved" ways. :-)R  B It shows that the customers are thinking when maybe Compaq is not.     John McL   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:06:25 -0400V+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>cY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if   merger   suceo1 Message-ID: <3C34D5E0.2A130EA1@trailing-edge.com>d   JF Mezei wrote:s >  > Peter da Silva wrote:uI > > Doesn't this argument come down to "Why would someone want to use VMSaI > > rather than Windows"? After all, Windows is effectively free with anyl' > > new PC, even for businesses. Right?g > M > Don't PC makers now have to make available window-less machines the reflectu* > the lack of windows on their price tag ?   No.s  y& > I would expect this to have been one@ > of the clauses in the mild punishement inflicted on Microsoft.  = I agree, it would make *some* sense, but it would be silly to ; impose requirements on the PC-makers just because Microsoftp? had been abusing its status.  This would be like requiring thati< McDonalds sell veggie-burgers just because a meat packer had forced vegetarians to eat meat.a  C As I understand it, the problem was that Microsoft was strongarmingiC PC makers into buying a copy of MS-DOS or Windows for every PC theyoE sold (to abuse my analogy, it would be like the meat packers had beeniD forcing McDonalds to buy a hamburger pattie for every bun they sold,= no matter whether the customer wanted it or even received it.aF The competition in the day wasn't Linux, but was DR-DOS and the like.)2 The remedy was to be sure that Microsoft didn't doD this strongarming on PC makers that didn't want to sell a MS OS with	 every PC.o  @ The strongarming still exists, it's just a bit more "promotionalA discounting" and a bit less "we'll break your windows and beat up  your kids" than it used to be.   Tim.   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 23:54:14 GMTe& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceed % Message-ID: <a12qv6$onq@web.nmti.com>s  8 In article <mjg33u8c41j6c298t06igs3euuso55ngh4@4ax.com>,. israel r t  <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:G > The point that I was making is that when free ( effectively ) WindowslF > is essentially available to the average hobbyist for the asking ( orG > for the downloading I suppose ) , why would anyone pay real money forO > VMS for hobbyist use ?  E Doesn't this argument come down to "Why would someone want to use VMSiE rather than Windows"? After all, Windows is effectively free with anyn# new PC, even for businesses. Right?o  E Now I'm no great VMS fan, but compared to Windows, well... let's justn$ say I think that's a silly question.  H A better question might be "Why would someone want to pay for VMS ratherF than free Linux or BSD"? And even there, while I certainly wouldn't, ID can certainly see why a lot of people may well want to do that. Just, look at some of the threads in these groups!   -- o+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.iE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."eL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:46:43 -0500i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>'Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceeda, Message-ID: <3C350971.2D677420@videotron.ca>   Peter da Silva wrote:)G > Doesn't this argument come down to "Why would someone want to use VMS7G > rather than Windows"? After all, Windows is effectively free with anys% > new PC, even for businesses. Right?:  K Don't PC makers now have to make available window-less machines the reflect.M the lack of windows on their price tag ? I would expect this to have been oneo> of the clauses in the mild punishement inflicted on Microsoft.    M If Compaq pays Microsoft $100 per copy of windows, it means that Compaq coulduN sell a machine $100 more with VMS than with Windows and Compaq would make $200K more revenu on that PC. Would you pay $100 more for a machine loaded with at  serious PC compared to Windows ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 03:16:02 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>iY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedt' Message-ID: <3C351F24.E5D007A2@fsi.net>p   Peter da Silva wrote:r > : > In article <mjg33u8c41j6c298t06igs3euuso55ngh4@4ax.com>,0 > israel r t  <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:I > > The point that I was making is that when free ( effectively ) Windows H > > is essentially available to the average hobbyist for the asking ( orI > > for the downloading I suppose ) , why would anyone pay real money foru > > VMS for hobbyist use ? > G > Doesn't this argument come down to "Why would someone want to use VMS7 > rather than Windows"?i  - Can you say, "virus"? Can you say, "B-S-O-D"?1   Sure, I knew y'could!w  1 > After all, Windows is effectively free with anye% > new PC, even for businesses. Right?e  E Well, not exactly. The "price" of WhineBloze is buried several layersh? deep in what you pay the retailer. The OEM has already paid theSB Micro$hit "tax" and added it into the wholesale price of the unit.  C I could build Intel boxes and sell 'em with (Linux, *BSD, etc.) for E cheaper than the Wintel preloads and still make a slim profit on eachtB one. Now that I think about it, that doesn't sound like such a bad idea...o  G > Now I'm no great VMS fan, but compared to Windows, well... let's justl& > say I think that's a silly question.   ...and maybe not.   J > A better question might be "Why would someone want to pay for VMS rather > than free Linux or BSD"?  E Rather depends on where security and reliability are on your priorityo list.r  / > And even there, while I certainly wouldn't, IsF > can certainly see why a lot of people may well want to do that. Just. > look at some of the threads in these groups!  ! Again - it depends what you need.d   -- y David J. DachteraS dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 04:19:50 GMT " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger  suceeds > Message-ID: <G3aZ7.15154$726.6000064@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   Andrew Swallow wrote:0   > drsquare wrote:0 > [snip] >> >I >> >Uh oh, here we go again... it's the 50 billion flies eat shit so it's  >> >got to taste good argument.  >> 0G >> No, I'm serious. Surely if it was that good, people would use it. At0L >> least people who know what they're doing would. Is it heniously expensive >> and difficult or something? >> 27 > Like MSDOS it is a command language Operating System.11 > Windows uses a "friendly" mouse, so 50 year old  > secretaries can use it.   + Along with the mouse on a Sun, SGI, or Mac.0   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 01:04:00 GMT0& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)A$ Message-ID: <a12v20$hb@web.nmti.com>  7 In article <slrna341ak.85t.kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org>,-1 Charlie Ebert <kd5ob@charlie.ebertlan.org> wrote:5K > 10 years ago, FreeBSD was a professional OS when Linux was barely fillingl > a single floppy disk.e  E Well, actually, ten years ago neither 386BSD nor Linux was what you'd F consider a complete OS. 386BSD was in the process of being turned fromD a "purified" 4.3BSD release tape to an OS by Bill Jolitz and a horde* of hackers, and Linux was a "super Minix".  F > Given you consider 'Open Source' the issue here, since both OS's hadF > 'Open Source', what was the deciding factor which made Linux eclipse# > BSD then?  What was it?  Tell us?0  K The AT&T lawsuit, which was settled because it turned out AT&T had violatedPG the BSD license when they incorporated parts of BSD in System V withoutsG giving credit, and the University of California countersued. But in thenF meantime, BSD lost a lot of momentum and Linux, which was clearly AT&T& free, got the wide distribution first.  F It's sort of like what happened with UNIX and VMS in the late '70s and) early '80s in universities, actually. :->0  D Linus has said the same thing, by the way. Have a look at the link IF posted. He's also been extremely generous in his interpretation of theE GPL... I'm sure that RMS would have balked at the device driver trick D VMWARE pulled to allow them to put their API into the kernel without losing control of it.0  E > Why would 300 times the people go to work on a project with a sucky0
 > license....0  I Would you mind not putting words into my mouth? I didn't say that the GPL0E was "sucky". It's really quite clever. What I said was that it wasn't H critical... the whole difference between the popularity of Linux and BSDK comes down to the one that got the early adopters. When you have a positiveoF feedback situation, a year (actually, less than that, but Linus said a2 year so I'll defer to him) makes a big difference.  K By the way, I'm not going to be able to follow "Followups" lines to a groups I don't have access to. :->s   --  +  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.,E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."uL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 01:09:08 GMTo& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)@$ Message-ID: <a12vbk$qe@web.nmti.com>  0 In article <qhg05p3fn3.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,5 Eric Smith  <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:$A > I would say that the GPL experiment has proven to be reasonably I > successful.  However, that doesn't mean that in the absence of the GPL,I3 > another license wouldn't have been as successful.    Which is exactly the point.o   -- m+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.;E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."aL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 01:28:12 GMTn& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) % Message-ID: <a130fc$24s@web.nmti.com>m  + In article <a0v555INNsn0@subds.rzg.mpg.de>,b' Bruce Scott TOK <bds@rzg.mpg.de> wrote: H > Convince me that the free BSD movements pre-date GNU and I might alter > my stance.  K Brian Kernighan, P. J. Plauger, _Software Tools_, Addison Wesley, 1976. The:L source code to Ratfor and all the other tools in the book was distributed onI magnetic tape, and could be freely redistributed. The Software Tools User0G Group at Berkeley was formed as a result of this book, and the Berkeley 8 based "Free Software" movement dates back to this event.  = > But it is clear RMS's stance came out of that MIT milieu of0 > the late 60s/early 70s,3  L Actually, *that* stance goes back millenia. You can't credit RMS as the onlyN anointed son of the traditional university environment. It's clear that thingsO were not so different in Berkeley in the '60s and '70s... nor at the UniversitytH of New South Wales, nor (I imagine) were they that much different at any other university.r  M Outside the University, but nearby, the People's Computer Company was founded.J in 1972. In 1976 they started publishing Doctor Dobbs' Jounral of ComputerF Calisthenics and Orthodontia. Within a few years several microcomputerH versions of "real" operating systems and languages were published... andI this included the first generally available compiler for a subset of "C".s  J All of these ideas were boiling out of the luminiferous ether all over theI world at around the same time, and to me RMS' greatest impact has been touD unnecessarily polarise the left and right coast variants of the same! movement... whatever you call it.-   -- 3+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.tE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 01:42:44 GMTn& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)e% Message-ID: <a131ak$2un@web.nmti.com>r  + In article <a0vli9INN12a@subds.rzg.mpg.de>, ' Bruce Scott TOK <bds@rzg.mpg.de> wrote:s > The pointcG > was that Stallman stood up and publicly announced "this is the way we I > are going to do things henceforth; it is the way we'll do it regardless G > of the constraints of the corporate marketplace; and this is what theo5 > world would look like if everyone worked this way."h  E Meanwhile the open systems and open source world was already doing itw) that way, and had been for over a decade."   > I didn't see anyonesI > else doing that... for all I know they may have but it never exited thee > inner circles.  G At the time he said that, and for years before, you could buy "Software0E Tools" and "Doctor Dobbs' Journal" in any decent bookstore. Ten yearsjI earlier, I could walk into a hobby computer store and pick up tapes (botheH paper and magnetic) full of source code alongside the PETs and HeathkitsC and Altairs, including terminal programs that let me visit RCPM andwA TBBS systems and download more... and upload my own code as well.o  G By 1986 the "inner circle" included anyone who wanted to be part of it.c  ; > But the organisations like BSD, free VMS or what have you-J > are not like that, and non-insiders were and are simply unaware of their% > existence, so their impact is zero.c  . I suspect that Linus would not agree with you.  H > But not the idea of building an industry around it people can live off- > and moving it outside of the inner circles.e  K People's Computer Company had been doing that for 10 years at the time. And G their "inner circle" included anyone who could find a bookstore. Beagle1H Brothers software on the Apple II was always distributed in source code.  < By the early '80s there were dozens of companies like that.   < By the mid '80s, the "inner circle" had millions of members.  H > Perhaps people are jealous of RMS and his willingness to take the restG > of the world on with this stuff, not just leaving it within the innerr
 > circles.  G No, but I must admit that I'm jealous of his ability to take credit forgK something I was doing in 1981 and convince you that he invented it in 1986.l   -- r+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva. E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."iL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 04:16:25 GMT " From: GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)a> Message-ID: <t0aZ7.15149$726.6000070@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com>   Joe  the Aroma wrote:w  A > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messages< > news:<bTLY7.50182$Sj1.20575548@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>...6 >> "Joe the Aroma" <bdjr76@yahoo.com> wrote in messageF >> news:RsLY7.210560$WW.12299765@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...	 >> <snip>0 >> >I >> > I've never believed in emulators. I'd rather just use the real thinguA >> > (of course I don't believe working with OS's is 'fun' in anysH >> > way/shape/form, unlike many of the other whackos who respond here). >> >3 >> > I'd find a place to get a VAX account instead.h >> d0 >> Yours for the asking at www.encompasserve.org > E > I already have an account through my univerity but they're ditchingy7 > VMS unfortunately so... I may need that link. Thanks.e > E > Actually my school hosted their webpage on VMS up until mid-OctoberhH > but changed to Windows2000 unfortunately... can't wait until I need to= > use the webpage and I see "hacked by chinese" or some such.  > E Don't worry, it won't be long until they see the error of their ways.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:44:33 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) 0 Message-ID: <3C34B3E4.B9E59F2B@blueyonder.co.uk>   Bob Koehler wrote: > x > In article <20020101164555.32312.qmail@gacracker.org>, Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes: > > K > > What has been done is a VAX emulator for PCs called CharonVAX. Once yousN > > have this up and running you can install VMS on your virtual VAX. There isO > > talk of this being available through the hobbyist program again, so it willl> > > be possible to run VMS on a PC for free when this happens. > H >    It is available though the hobbyist program, I have the new versionI >    (called Pico-VAX) loaded on my laptop.  I just haven't loaded any OSr< >    on it yet because I got some real systems to work with.  L but PicoVAX will only install on Windows 2000. If you've found a workaround,I I'm interested. I am not interested in upgrading either of my 98 boxes too 2000.s   regardsn -- C Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  D  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of e! my employers or service provider.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:28:41 +0000e4 From: Andrew Swallow <andrew.swallow@baesystems.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds) . Message-ID: <3C34CD09.6B5B1C0E@baesystems.com>   drsquare wrote:a [snip] > > H > >Uh oh, here we go again... it's the 50 billion flies eat shit so it's > >got to taste good argument. > L > No, I'm serious. Surely if it was that good, people would use it. At leastI > people who know what they're doing would. Is it heniously expensive and2 > difficult or something?b > 5 Like MSDOS it is a command language Operating System. / Windows uses a "friendly" mouse, so 50 year olds secretaries can use it.v -- @7 _______________________________________________________o Andrew Swallow   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 22:50:13 GMTm) From: Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>dH Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )) Message-ID: <3C34EDD6.56ADF4B8@yahoo.com>   B If I'm following this thread correctly, the problems with VMS are:>   1. Compaq owns it and apparently doesn't want to release it.F   2. Most of it (AFAIK) is written in a proprietary language BLISS-32.D      Unless you want to rewrite all of VMS, you'd have to port BLISS8      which (again AFAIK) is not intended to be portable.   israel r t wrote:  > G > On 01 Jan 2002 09:37:31 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>h > wrote:+ > >drsquare <nowhere@nowhere.co.uk> writes:y; > >> >>Why doesn't someone port it to more common hardware?w' > >> Surely it can't be that difficult.  > F > >Well, 'common' would not be code for 'industry standard' aka x86 PCH > >would it? Well, that has been done, and it was taken out the back and > >put out of its misery. H > >Only a few of the chips are able to support VMS properly. The x86 andJ > >its smoking, bloated brethern can not. Funny enough, the PA-RISK would,  > >or in the 32 bit ones anyway. > E > Multics ( arguably a far more sophisticated and more secure os thantG > VMS ) has been ported to the 86x platform. You can buy it as the STOPr? > operating system running on XTS-300s ( based on a Pentium 2 )w; > It has been evaluated as fulfilling B3 security criteria.wA > It is interesting that you can run Unix and DOS programs on it.n > C > http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/epl/entries/CSC-EPL-92-003-D.htmln > E > And yes, it is available is likely to be around for the foreseeablew	 > future.  > H > "The SASS II contract provides the Defense Intelligence Community withE > a vehicle  for the acquisition of a broad range of state-of-the artnG > TEMPEST/Zone  products and associated services.  The NSA B3 certified E > XTS-300 and Defense Information Infrastructure (DII) Guard are alsom > available on this contract."   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 23:34:49 -0500e0 From: Norman E. Powroz <npowroz.nospam@home.com>H Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )8 Message-ID: <i9ba3ug90ksdns2hqepkevarg00c2vl3r9@4ax.com>  E On 3 Jan 2002 08:47:20 -0800, mike.focke@wang.com (mike focke) wrote:a  F >> Multics ( arguably a far more sophisticated and more secure os thanH >> VMS ) has been ported to the 86x platform. You can buy it as the STOP  F Multics has never been ported to any other hardware platform -- indeedF the question as to when and how this should be accomplished resurfacesA every few months in the alt.os.multics newsgroup. Most Multicians C would like to see this happen, but it would, alas, likely be one ofMD the most complex computing tasks ever undertaken, especially with noF funding and support only from dedicated volunters who likely also have	 day jobs.   @ >> operating system running on XTS-300s ( based on a Pentium 2 )< >> It has been evaluated as fulfilling B3 security criteria.B >> It is interesting that you can run Unix and DOS programs on it. > G >In the mid to late 80's, Multics was ported to an Intel platform under B >the name of Opus by some group in New York (I believe).  This wasC >after HIS had basically given up the claim to the Multics OS (sold C >it).  To the best of my knowledge, Opus was never completed to the # >point of being a released product.   C Your timeframe is correct, but the remainder of your statements are C somewhat off. As I stated earlier, Multics has never been ported to F other hardware. Opus was an operating system that largely existed onlyB on paper, although at the time the then-named "Honeywell Bull" didC plan to build it as a migration target for Multics users. Note that B "migration" and "port" are two very different software development problems/approaches.  F The work on Opus was done in Boston (Billerica) and Calgary (under theD auspices of what was then ACTC). What became known as Opus (more forF marketing potential than for any other reason) was originally known asD "HVS 6 PLUS Version 3". It was originally targeted at a new breed ofF hardware that was destined to replace the DPS/6 line and upgrade it inD power. This was later known as DPX/2. Ultimately, Opus never came toD pass, as Honeywell Bull decided that UNIX was the target for MulticsE users, thus creating the incestuous possibility that the father wouldbF come to depend on the myriad children. Ultimately, I don't know if any3 Multics sites migrated to UNIX equipment from Bull.e   [snip]   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 02:53:40 GMTs+ From: "Jose Montanez" <j.montanez@snet.net> $ Subject: VMS on Nuclear ApplicationsB Message-ID: <UO8Z7.6983$sA5.1490899068@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com>   Hi Guys,  D I will soon change to a new job in the nuclear industry and my first assignment will-L be to interface with older VMS computers running "PMS" (for Plant Management	 Systems).)H These are normally from Westionghouse or GE from the 70ies and 80ies and good workhorsesA& for process visualization and control.  D Has somebody ever worked with those kind of application and systems.   Drop me a line !     JD   -- Jose Dieter Montanez josemontanez1@attbi.coml  + in /dev/null no one can here you scream ...f   ------------------------------   Date: 3 Jan 2002 14:17:48 -0600x- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)D Subject: VT330/340 help?3 Message-ID: <ZoQTvrHyH3H6@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  G    I now have a DEC VT330, with a VT330/340 module plugged in the back.   C    What software supports the mouse?  Will a VSXXX-AA (hockey puck)d    work?  G    Do I have to use the DB25 for COMM1?  (The MMJ COMM1 doesn't seem to 7    work, both are marked COMM1.  MMJ COMM2 works fine).e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 20:30:15 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: VT330/340 help?0 Message-ID: <3C34BE9A.A33FE0D5@blueyonder.co.uk>   Bob Koehler wrote: > I >    I now have a DEC VT330, with a VT330/340 module plugged in the back.    That takes me back.h   > E >    What software supports the mouse?  Will a VSXXX-AA (hockey puck)c
 >    work?  G I think I remember plugging a VaxStation mouse into a Vt330 and runningoF an early version of the Zeus event display using Regis support via GKSB (either DEC or GTS/GKS) on one, it was painful, but worked, and we! only had one VS2000 at the time. t  D The Vt330 does Regis and Sixels. Maybe there was a Tek4014 mode too,  but as I said, its been a while.     > I >    Do I have to use the DB25 for COMM1?  (The MMJ COMM1 doesn't seem to 9 >    work, both are marked COMM1.  MMJ COMM2 works fine).l  @ Usually there is a setup switch to toggle for DB25/MMJ on COMM1. Try Setup Communications.p   regardsf -- x Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  h  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of n! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:39:01 +0100t1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>p% Subject: What happened to marketing ?s5 Message-ID: <3C34C165.634BC2E2@swissonline.delete.ch>a  H I looked back to OpenVMS Times April - June 2000 (Volume 1/Number 3) theB other day and I found Marcello's interview with Capellas.  In that interview I found ...   D MARCELLO: Recently, you said that OpenVMS has been building momentum= over the last six months.  Could you expand on that momentum?:  H CAPELLAS: There has been momentum in a couple of different areas.  First@ of all, the market is moving to our strengths.  That is the realB foundation.  As the market moves toward our strengths, it 's aboutF really bringing forward the kinds of capabilities that we can do, such? as clustering.  We need to take our advanced engineering around H clustering and our software stacks and make e-commerce real.  I think weD are almost uniquely qualified to service the demands of e-business. H That what's going to continue to attract people to OpenVMS .  Now it's aE question of taking the fight to the streets and taking our message to 
 the market.  s    G So, I wonder, what happened to the "taking the fight to the streets andeC taking our message to the market" ?   A bit of trouble getting thatu message out the door perhaps ?  F Assuming the directive went down from on high, who was it that decidedG it was a bit too cold outside in the street or the fight was too hard ?r     John McLeans   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 02:45:20 GMTGL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")8 Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ?8 Message-ID: <00A0780F.4260F68E@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  U In article <3C349091.FAA394BC@caltech.edu>, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:e+ >Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:t >BP >> There are some flaws in the EDU license program, but it's a step in the rightK >> direction.  For our purposes, it made VMS Alpha systems cost the same as3> >> Linux-based Alpha systems, which was a definite Good Thing. >SO >_Some_ flaws??????  I cannot see how you're able to use it at your site AT ALLt
 >since theP >license terms are quite clear in forbidding its use for anything remotely worth >doing.uM >Or has the Q finally modified the license agreement to allow real work to bey
 >performed onh >machines using these licenses?p  I See the FAQ on the OPENVMSEDU.COM site, where it explicitly says you can DI do what we did.  However the license agreement reads, that's a clear and wH official statement of their intent, and if for some reason they changed G their minds and decided to sue us over it, they'd lose.  Stanford has a  lot of lawyers too.    -- Alan  =   O ===============================================================================o0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056aM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210eO ===============================================================================.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 00:49:33 GMTa& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common har % Message-ID: <a12u6t$shq@web.nmti.com>   & In article <3c32f51f$1@pull.gecm.com>,8 Paul Cooke <paul.cooke@baeSPAM_ME_NOTsystems.com> wrote:I > so why are Microsoft being "punished" by "donating" lots of software tob > schools??>  A I believe the latest spin on this is they will now have to donateo money with no strings attached.    -- o+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva. E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."tL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:59:35 -0500 ( From: Kenneth Downs <extra@downsfam.net>Y Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common hart> Message-ID: <pan.2002.01.03.21.59.30.45340.20066@downsfam.net>  4 On Wed, 02 Jan 2002 23:38:05 -0500, GreyCloud wrote:   > Paul Cooke wrote:  >  >> Doc. Cypher wrote:a >> yJ >>>The decline of VMS in education has a great deal to do with the generalH >>>decline of the operating system. Students become decision-makers and,J >>>in my opinion, Compaq fail to see this. I'd like to see Compaq donatingI >>>hardware and software licenses to colleges and universities, but thereoD >>>seems little hope of such radical marketing. After all, that is aI >>>long-term strategy which doesn't yield results in the current quarter.m >> nJ >> so why are Microsoft being "punished" by "donating" lots of software to >> schools?? > J > Because they are a monopoly for starters, and it seems to follow from anJ > old catholic saying "Give me your children and they'll stay catholic forH > the rest of their life".  Which means that M$ would be biasing a wholeC > new generation of kids towards the one-microsoft-way of thinking.e  G Well, back in Jesuit high school they told it as, "Give me a boy of sixeD and I'll give you a solder of Christ for life."  The Jesuits are the king-hell bad-asses of the RCC.o   > H >> which costs them very little to actually make but they are trumpetingG >> the full retail price of the stuff as if it will really hurt them... G >> There is something very wrong with this, the schools should be giveniE >> vouchers to spend as they wish on hardware and software. OtherwiseuE >> other operating systems will not get a look in at all and yet moreeH >> educators and students will become brainwashed to the "Microsoft way" >> of doing things.  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 19:18:15 GMTD3 From: usenet_0102@eeyore.dircon.co.uk (Ian Kemmish) Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compaa1 Message-ID: <X72Z7.11$5w3.3033@news.dircon.co.uk>S  L There is actually an easy answer to this dilemma.  Find people who are 5-10 N years into their career and ground down by poor management to the point where L they have no enthusiasm left.  Treat them like superstars (assuming they do  actually have talent!)  L I have seen this work *so* often, sometimes with quite dazzling results.....  M - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -tM Ian Kemmish                   18 Durham Close, Biggleswade, Beds SG18 8HZ, UKnM usenet_0102@eeyore.dircon.co.uk                         Tel: +44 1767 601 361cM - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -dK Behind every successful organisation stands one person who knows the secreta? of how to keep the managers away from anything truly important.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:00:42 -0800h& From: name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley)Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compah7 Message-ID: <name99-0301021700420001@handma2.apple.com>   K In article <pbn01a.rbe.ln@escape.shannon.net>, shannon@widomaker.com wrote:-  ) > In article <3C339075.5089DB3C@ev1.net>,a- > Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:l > < > > "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.= > > Talent will not. Nothing is more common than unsuccessfulD; > > men with talent. Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is  ; > > almost a proverb. Education will not. The world is fullD9 > > of educated derelicts. Persistence, determination ande$ > > hard work makes the difference." > L > How true.  If you look at people who have "made it", this is usually true.J > In fact, I have not often found I think very much of the people that our0 > society trumpets as being so incredibly smart.  E Oh come on, give me a break. The source was the (according to Charles ! Richmond) great Calvin Coolidge. i3 (1) Name three great things he did. Heck, name one.-F (2) The agenda of a quote like this is quite transparent. You won't toH fool the masses into believing that wealth is a consequence of hard workC and thus deserved so that they won't notice that by far the bulk of I wealthy people in the country (both then and now) are that way because ofd their parents.    F > I know a lot of smart people that just don't have a lot of drive, orG > who are not extroverted enough to get anyone's attention.  Of course,-H > a good manager/leader is supposed to recognize people like that, in an > ideal situation anyway.e > F > A friend of mine told me this is because the really smart people areJ > usually bored or otherwise not interested in the "politics of ascension"@ > and so they don't achieve what they could.  Sounds reasonable. >  > --   > J > UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 14:34:10 +1100w, From: israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compar8 Message-ID: <pg8a3uo5rofj0v368h6gv5ramombl0nleb@4ax.com>  D On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:00:42 -0800, name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) wrote:  F >Oh come on, give me a break. The source was the (according to Charles" >Richmond) great Calvin Coolidge. 4 >(1) Name three great things he did. Heck, name one.  
 You are righto  ? "Coolidge was "distinguished for character more than for heroic6= achievement," wrote a Democratic admirer, Alfred E. Smith.  "h  E " The political genius of President Coolidge, Walter Lippmann pointed @ out in 1926, was his talent for effectively doing nothing: "This@ active inactivity suits the mood and certain of the needs of the country admirably. .." "  G >(2) The agenda of a quote like this is quite transparent. You won't toeI >fool the masses into believing that wealth is a consequence of hard workcD >and thus deserved so that they won't notice that by far the bulk ofJ >wealthy people in the country (both then and now) are that way because of >their parents.   / I am not quite so sure about the agenda though.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 21:03:29 +0100 , From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqi4 Message-ID: <3C34B911.7C4B8097@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>   Sander Vesik wrote:3  8 > In comp.arch Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:/ > > (alleged to Confuzius, though I doubt that)e >  > > Beware of: > L > > * People who think that having played computer games to excess qualifies > > as "computer expert".t > H > * People who think that recompiling the Linux kernel N number of times% > qualifies them as "computer expert"o  " Well, let's face it: It does help.  D I believe that the fact that GCC-3.0.2 couldn't compile 819too.c was8 registered in our bug database at least two dozen times.  7 That way, it was impossible to overlook the problem :-)e   -- mG Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290-6 Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG  Maartensdijk, The NetherlandsG Maintainer, GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.htmluE Join GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction)-   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 05:52:37 GMTn* From: "Foobar T. Clown" <fubar@gazonk.del>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqs) Message-ID: <3C354356.9F856A3@gazonk.del>n   Bernd Paysan wrote:i >  > [...] Beware of: > @ > * People who think that having played computer games to excess! > qualifies as "computer expert".e  A * People who think that a certificate from a Microsoft accrediteda8   training program qualifies them as "computer experts."  D I have worked with some dim-bulb programmers, and I have worked withE some stubborn programmers, and I have worked with some under-educated @ programmers; but *NOTHING* is harder than trying to work with a F Microsoft devotee if you did not also receive the same indoc^H^H^H^H^H	 training.n   -- Foo!n   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.007 ************************