/ INFO-VAX	Fri, 04 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 8       Contents:< ????????????????JSP??????????????JSP ??????????JDBC ???????? Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS3 Re: AMDS not recognising that there is a swap file.  Re: BLISS pros and cons  Re: BLISS pros and cons  Re: BLISS pros and cons  Re: BLISS pros and cons  Re: BLISS pros and cons  Re: BLISS pros and cons P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DECP Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DECO Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC N Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what wentwrong at DEC> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the/ Re: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media? / Re: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media? 2 Re: Compaq still tries to spin Alphacide both ways- Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" * Re: Congratulations for the festive season; Re: CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again. 
 DDCMP and RAS  Re: DDCMP and RAS  Re: DDCMP and RAS  Re: DDCMP and RAS  Re: Emulation... Re: Emulation... Re: Emulation... Re: Emulation... Re: File sharing under VAXELN 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V?0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds( logicals pointing to files opened by DCL Re: MSCP serving 101 question  Re: MSCP serving 101 question " Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons" Re: Of Blimps and Barrage BalloonsP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demisP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demisP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The      demise P Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co Re: TCPIP: SHOW HOST problem0 Re: Terraserver ( was Re: The demise of compaq )0 Re: Terraserver ( was Re: The demise of compaq )0 Re: Terraserver ( was Re: The demise of compaq ), Terraserver ( was Re: The demise of compaq ) Re: The demise of compaq/ Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs / Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs % Re: TSM Installation Problem on Alpha  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and the Big Dig P Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceedP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) ? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) ? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )  Re: VT330/340 help? E Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more E Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more E Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more P Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common har& Windows & Quickblade (was Blimps etc.)* Re: Windows & Quickblade (was Blimps etc.)P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise  of comP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise   of compP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise   of compP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise   of compP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise   of compP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compaP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compaP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compaE [Q] What is a NRO PPF? SPAWN/INPUT table; associated terminal mailbox   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 17:33:55 -0000 % From: "????????" <sales@todaynic.com> E Subject: ????????????????JSP??????????????JSP ??????????JDBC ???????? > Message-ID: <20020104173355.15546.qmail@localhost.localdomain>  L CtbCzfjVvr2oyejV36O6IArQwsTqtPPTxbvdo6HM4bmpyKvD5s7Itqi438vZ0OnE4tb3u/qjoSAKL oe4gwsrPyNans9ZKU1AgvLDX7tDCserXvEpEQkMgyv2+3b/io6zN6sirveLXvNbQzsS8sMr9vt2/L 4tbQzsTOysziIAoKoe4gtuDW1ravzKy9xbG+sPzAqCBBU1CjrFBIUCxDR0kgo6xQRVJMNS42ICxKL U1AsU2VydmxldCAsIAq7udPQv+zL2UNHSSCjrL/sy9lQRVJMo6hmY2dpo6nWp7PWo6wgUEhQ0rK0L +Nfu0MK808vZ0v3Wv6OhIAooz+q8+zpodHRwOi8vd3d3LnRvZGF5bmljLmNvbSkgCqHuILbg1tbKL /b7dv+LWp7PWo6yw/MCoIFNRTCBTRVJWRVIyMDAwIE1ZU1FMIE1ZU1FMLU1BWCBBQ0VTUyAKCszhL uanIq7n6tsDM2LXEtPhWRE5T0/LD+9eisuGjoSAKoe4gtsDT0LXEv8nK07uv0/LD+7f+zvHG91ZEL TlPPtc2zo6y/ydLUy+bS4tT2vNO0zry20/LD+6OsuPrW99Pyw/u5psTcIArSu9H5x7+086Osv8nSL 1LbAwaLJz7TmoaK2wMGiudzA7aGitsDBorfDzsqjrMq508PE3MjO0uK12L2owaLE+rXE19PT8sP7L vLDX08341b4gCtPyw/vXorLhsPzAqCA6IC5jb20gLm5ldCAub3JnIC5iaXogLmluZm8gLmNjIC50L diAuc2ggLmNvbS5jbiAubmV0LmNuIC5nb3YuY24gLm9yZy5jbiApIAoK0MLE6rTz08W73aOh1+LTL w7/VvOSjrMvNufq8ytPyw/ujrMvNtM68ttPyw/ujrMvNyczTw9PKz+SjoSAKoe7U2tDCxOrAtMHZL 1q68yqOsyrG0tM34wuejqGh0dHA6Ly93d3cubm93Lm5ldC5jbqOpIM6qxOPM4bmpv9W85Nfi08O0L 89PFu92jodTaMdTCNbrFx7CjrNTaztK5q8u+1+LTw7/VvOSjqLP9u/mxvtDNzeKjqaOsy83Su7j2L ufq8ytPyw/ujrMG9uPa0zry20/LD+6OoVkROU7y8yvWjrNPr1vfT8sP7uabE3NK70fnHv7Tzo6mjL rMvN0/LD+8/C08rP5LbguPajoSAKCtDCxOq089PFu92jrLTzvNK/ycenzfKx8LTtuf27+rvho6HNL +NW+vajJ6NXfx+u9+KO6d3d3Lm5vdy5uZXQuY24gCgq7ttOtxPrWwtDFVG9kYXkncyBOZXR3b3JrL IG1hcmtldEB0b2RheW5pYy5jb20gCru2063E+rfDzspUb2RheSdzIE5ldHdvcmsgaHR0cDovL3d3L dy50b2RheW5pYy5jb20gCgrW6bqjyrG0tM34wucgCjA3NTYtLTIxMjU1ODMgMjEyNTU5MyAyMTI1L NTIzIDIyNTI4NzIgCjA3NTYtLTIyMzY1NzUgMjEyNTU5NCAyMjE2Mzc2IAq0q9Xmo7ogMDc1Ni0t MjIyOTY2OSAKCg==   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 09:23:50 -0500 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS . Message-ID: <3C35BAF6.4DDDDEEB@mindspring.com>   JF Mezei wrote:   $ > Why is the MAC not an option ? ... > M > Intel might even pay you to do it. If a VMS kernel running MAC applications K > were to become reality, it would further help the struggling IA64 against P > established players like Power. And it would make Compaq more "neutral" in the; > OS wars since it would sell both MAC and Windows systems.   O And therein lies the problem. Compaq (and Digital before them) does not want to Q be perceived as "neutral". Compaq wants to be perceived as down on its knees with M its mouth firmly clamped around Bill Gates' pointing device. They proved this K when they testified on behalf of Microsoft duringthe anti-trust trial, even K though this was clearly a violation of Compaq's fiduciary duties to its own F shareholders. They've proven this over the years with their eggregiousI non-marketing of Alpha, Unix, and VMS. They proved it years ago when they ; jettisoned Pathworks, a pretty-succesful Macintosh product!   : Introduce a product that promotes Macintosh? Not a chance!  P In the long run, it won't matter. Compaq's headed for history's dustbin. Bill G.+ better hope that Michael Dell puckers well.    Atlant   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:37:26 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS 1 Message-ID: <P2kZ7.287$5Y4.5980@news.cpqcorp.net>   4 Good to see your still calm and collected Atlant ;-)  K I can count the number of requests from customers for MAC compatability and I applications on... well, on no hands.  I have never seen one.  So exactly G how would getting source compatability with the MAC help us?  Why would 5 Apple be interested in licensing and helping with it?   K The biggest complaint from people is the lack of the applications and tools I available on a PC - meaning Windows.  We went down this road with Bristol J quite a while ago, and I was very enthusiastic about it.  But for whateverH reason - the complaint heard most often was cost - it didn't really turn into what I'd hoped it would.   K The UNIX world tried this as well in several forms, and it too never caught  on.   L The UNIX/Linux world has now embraced a strategy to create something that isI a look-alike environment, with tools that mimic (or at least can read the 0 data files) from Windows - Gnome and StarOffice.  E The best I think OpenVMS can do, is to join the Unix/Linux bandwagon.   H So.  Send your cards and letters.  Tell your account reps that Gnome and StarOffice are requirements.   _Fred   E Atlant Schmidt wrote in message <3C35BAF6.4DDDDEEB@mindspring.com>...  >JF Mezei wrote: > % >> Why is the MAC not an option ? ...  >>A >> Intel might even pay you to do it. If a VMS kernel running MAC  applicationsL >> were to become reality, it would further help the struggling IA64 againstJ >> established players like Power. And it would make Compaq more "neutral" in the< >> OS wars since it would sell both MAC and Windows systems. > H >And therein lies the problem. Compaq (and Digital before them) does not want to G >be perceived as "neutral". Compaq wants to be perceived as down on its 
 knees withI >its mouth firmly clamped around Bill Gates' pointing device. They proved  thisL >when they testified on behalf of Microsoft duringthe anti-trust trial, evenL >though this was clearly a violation of Compaq's fiduciary duties to its ownG >shareholders. They've proven this over the years with their eggregious J >non-marketing of Alpha, Unix, and VMS. They proved it years ago when they< >jettisoned Pathworks, a pretty-succesful Macintosh product! > ; >Introduce a product that promotes Macintosh? Not a chance!  > I >In the long run, it won't matter. Compaq's headed for history's dustbin.  Bill G. , >better hope that Michael Dell puckers well. >  >Atlant  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:57:33 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <00A07897.133A9D2F@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <3C35BAF6.4DDDDEEB@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:  >JF Mezei wrote: > % >> Why is the MAC not an option ? ...  >>N >> Intel might even pay you to do it. If a VMS kernel running MAC applicationsL >> were to become reality, it would further help the struggling IA64 againstQ >> established players like Power. And it would make Compaq more "neutral" in the < >> OS wars since it would sell both MAC and Windows systems. > P >And therein lies the problem. Compaq (and Digital before them) does not want toR >be perceived as "neutral". Compaq wants to be perceived as down on its knees withN >its mouth firmly clamped around Bill Gates' pointing device. They proved thisL >when they testified on behalf of Microsoft duringthe anti-trust trial, evenL >though this was clearly a violation of Compaq's fiduciary duties to its ownG >shareholders. They've proven this over the years with their eggregious J >non-marketing of Alpha, Unix, and VMS. They proved it years ago when they< >jettisoned Pathworks, a pretty-succesful Macintosh product!  K Pretty strong sentiments from a former d|i|g|i|t.  Nothing said, of course, 0 that we didn't already surmise or know as fact.   J Compaq and d|i|g|i|t|a|l testifying on behalf of Micro$oft ought to be re-I viewed for prevarication under oath!  Perjury was a title 18 offense last  time I looked.  Q >In the long run, it won't matter. Compaq's headed for history's dustbin. Bill G. , >better hope that Michael Dell puckers well. >  >Atlant   G Perhaps we can take up a collective donation to purchase a pair of knee ? pads for Michael.  It looks like he's going to be needing them.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 10:03:47 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS 3 Message-ID: <NhslIIVVs2RJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <P2kZ7.287$5Y4.5980@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: 6 > Good to see your still calm and collected Atlant ;-) > M > I can count the number of requests from customers for MAC compatability and ' > applications on... well, on no hands.   E Perhaps you are in the wrong department, but someone in your building F heard about it a lot when Apple's newer machines would not support theH existing DECnet for Macintosh product.  Personally, I use one of Apple's& older machines on my internal network.  M > The biggest complaint from people is the lack of the applications and tools & > available on a PC - meaning Windows.  C Are you _sure_ there is nobody who wanted Quicken or Microsoft Word?A on VMS ?  I run both of those on a Macintosh, and if someone at aeA DECUS symposium ever said "I want Quicken", you may have inferredsB "because now I use it on Windows" whereas I know that for me it is$ "because now I use it on Macintosh".  N > The UNIX/Linux world has now embraced a strategy to create something that isK > a look-alike environment, with tools that mimic (or at least can read thea2 > data files) from Windows - Gnome and StarOffice. > G > The best I think OpenVMS can do, is to join the Unix/Linux bandwagon.a  E We hope VMS will do the best that it can do, although of course thereS7 will be gripes about defects in _whatever_ shows up :-)t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:18:44 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSg1 Message-ID: <xFkZ7.292$5Y4.6401@news.cpqcorp.net>c  $ Larry Kilgallen wrote in message ...D >In article <P2kZ7.287$5Y4.5980@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge"% <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:s7 >> Good to see your still calm and collected Atlant ;-)  >>J >> I can count the number of requests from customers for MAC compatability andS( >> applications on... well, on no hands. > F >Perhaps you are in the wrong department, but someone in your buildingG >heard about it a lot when Apple's newer machines would not support the:I >existing DECnet for Macintosh product.  Personally, I use one of Apple'st' >older machines on my internal network.n >s    L There is a huge difference between a handful of Mac users who want access to> VMS disks, and people who want to run Mac applications on VMS.  H >> The biggest complaint from people is the lack of the applications and tools0' >> available on a PC - meaning Windows.s >lD >Are you _sure_ there is nobody who wanted Quicken or Microsoft WordB >on VMS ?  I run both of those on a Macintosh, and if someone at aB >DECUS symposium ever said "I want Quicken", you may have inferredC >"because now I use it on Windows" whereas I know that for me it is % >"because now I use it on Macintosh".s >   C Come on Larry.  You have no point here.  Neither of these are "Mac" I applications.  They are Windows applications running on a Mac.  Give me at@ real Mac application.  Something that isn't a retargeted Windows application.  L >> The UNIX/Linux world has now embraced a strategy to create something that isL >> a look-alike environment, with tools that mimic (or at least can read the3 >> data files) from Windows - Gnome and StarOffice.  >>H >> The best I think OpenVMS can do, is to join the Unix/Linux bandwagon. > F >We hope VMS will do the best that it can do, although of course there8 >will be gripes about defects in _whatever_ shows up :-)  3 There will always be gripes.  No matter what we do.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:24:47 -0500f0 From: Paul Anderson <paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSc; Message-ID: <040120021224477231%paul.r.anderson@compaq.com>c  = In article <3C35BAF6.4DDDDEEB@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidtt$ <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:  < > Introduce a product that promotes Macintosh? Not a chance!  < Even though some of us do, in fact, run Macs here at Compaq.  G It's good to see your name again, Atlant.  It appears you left before Ii
 made it back.e   Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineeringw   Compaq Computer Corporationi   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 11:42:26 -0600P- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSc3 Message-ID: <fGxH2eGMl$gH@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  i In article <xFkZ7.292$5Y4.6401@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:a& > Larry Kilgallen wrote in message ...  E >>Are you _sure_ there is nobody who wanted Quicken or Microsoft WordfC >>on VMS ?  I run both of those on a Macintosh, and if someone at a1C >>DECUS symposium ever said "I want Quicken", you may have inferredaD >>"because now I use it on Windows" whereas I know that for me it is& >>"because now I use it on Macintosh". >> > E > Come on Larry.  You have no point here.  Neither of these are "Mac"oK > applications.  They are Windows applications running on a Mac.  Give me avB > real Mac application.  Something that isn't a retargeted Windows > application.  B I certainly saw Word on Macintosh long before I saw it on Windows.H I bought it about 1987, and it seemed fully compliant with the Macintosh user interface standards.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:29:42 +0000o< From: Andrew Swallow <andrew.swallow@eatspam.baesystems.com>% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSu5 Message-ID: <3C35F496.CAC3762@eatspam.baesystems.com>    Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > K > Well, as far as I know, VMS uses the same basic window system as Linux --u > X11. > K > Sure, LINUX's version of X11 is xFree86, but it is a recent descendent ofiK > X11R6 - which is the UNIX industry standard.  It typically runs Gnome (or J > perhaps KDE) - but Gnome doesn't really have anything to do with API's -@ > Gnome applications tend to use GTK+ which is really a freewareK > implementation of Motif (and Motif applications will run on it) plus someeM > new functions... but there is already a free GTK+ implementation for VMS son > that doesn't matter anyway.l >   5 The API - we are now talking about something 10 timesn5 the size and cost of the original suggestion.  A niceh bit of requirements drift. -- i7 _______________________________________________________e+ Andrew Swallow (7605) 2225   Cowes site, UKi andrew.swallow@baesystems.come   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:40:03 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>k% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSa1 Message-ID: <%JmZ7.305$5Y4.6430@news.cpqcorp.net>f  L Andrew Swallow wrote in message <3C35F496.CAC3762@eatspam.baesystems.com>... >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:M >>L >> Well, as far as I know, VMS uses the same basic window system as Linux -- >> X11.  >>L >> Sure, LINUX's version of X11 is xFree86, but it is a recent descendent ofL >> X11R6 - which is the UNIX industry standard.  It typically runs Gnome (orK >> perhaps KDE) - but Gnome doesn't really have anything to do with API's -iA >> Gnome applications tend to use GTK+ which is really a freewarerL >> implementation of Motif (and Motif applications will run on it) plus someK >> new functions... but there is already a free GTK+ implementation for VMSe so >> that doesn't matter anyway. >> >e6 >The API - we are now talking about something 10 times6 >the size and cost of the original suggestion.  A nice >bit of requirements drift.h    I Eh?  Refresh me, since I missed something here.  What is 10x the size and 
 cost of what?    ------------------------------  " Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:40:49 GMT' From: nickerson@pundit.ds.boeing.com ()u< Subject: Re: AMDS not recognising that there is a swap file.( Message-ID: <GpFAC1.JKw@news.boeing.com>  7 In article <3C34ECF7.34147D58@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>, u3 Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk> writes:a  ? |>This may have been discussed before, but I'm not as active ine |>comp.os.vms as I once was....   & come on back to the fuss & worry farm!  + .. environment showing swapfile snipped ...-  I |>AMDS on ths other hand belives that there is no swap file installed andm5 |>always displays the event "NOSWFL" for this node.  ? ..C |>Any ideas whether this behaviour is all to be expected or whether1. |>there's something specifically wrong here??? |> |>Steve.  G same here with AMDS V7.3; it reports no swapfile on OpenVMS 7.3 Alpha; K* however my VAXes running VMS 7.2 show ok;    --bn (Bart Nickerson)O nickerson@pundit.ds.boeing.com (206) 662-0183   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:15:23 +0100 (MET)W9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>3  Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons; Message-ID: <01KCOGH3SBHY8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>B  + > > It's still used at Compaq because a lot9C > > of code is written in it, and all of that code still works, andtB > > can still be maintained because the compilers still work.  ButD > > I think everyone agrees that there won't be much new development > > in BLISS in the future.C > I > Remember that a significant part of Oracle Rdb is written in BLISS. TheuF > fact that Compaq stopped supporting BLISS on NT, was the main reasonI > that Rdb for NT never was realesed (besides the "developer workbench").6H > This was, AFAIR, before (or shortly before) NT for Alpha was stopped.   I I've never programmed in BLISS.  I don't even think I've seen any source 2H code.  However, this discussion has produced examples of things written E in BLISS like EDT, Rdb, MAIL_OLD (invoked with MAIL/OLD) etc.  These +C happen to be some of my favourite products, especially in terms of m quality, performance etc.6  G A lot of new stuff is written in C and not as good.  A good comparison 0D is MAIL with MAIL_OLD.  How many utilities XXX are so bad after the G rewrite that the vendor introduces the qualifier /OLD to resurrect the   old version?  E How much of the difference in quality is due to inherent differences SG between C and BLISS, how much to differences between the typical BLISS MG programmer and the typical C programmer and how much to differences in   quality control then and now??  H Apart from Compaq and Oracle, I suppose we should include Mr Goatley in B our venerable list, as I believe some of the packages on his site F (written by him) are indeed written in BLISS.  (I think he even has a # mailing list for BLISS developers.)S  @ I believe MONITOR is written in PL/I.  Where can one obtain the , information to complete the following table?  # utility          VAX          ALPHAd# -------          ---          -----c  H Some things were rewritten (usually in C) at the VAX/ALPHA transition.  @ Presumably the VAX version still uses the old code.  Some ALPHA D applications are actually VESTed (I think EDT is an example), so of B course writing a language in the "ALPHA" column is stretching the  definition.r   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:20:12 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>r  Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons; Message-ID: <01KCOGVROX6K8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a  G > > Remember that a significant part of Oracle Rdb is written in BLISS. L > > The fact that Compaq stopped supporting BLISS on NT, was the main reason > 6 > Can you back up that statement?  That is news to me.  F Which statement?  That a significant part of Oracle Rdb is written in G BLISS, or that the fact that Compaq stopped supporting BLISS on NT was o( the reason Rdb on NT was never released?  F As to the second, the usual caveats regarding marketing justification  apply.  G As to the first, it is common knowledge (with a suitable definition of eI "common", of course).  A while back on the Rdb list, I asked whether the eH fact that Rdb is written in BLISS and that BLISS is used internally for G a lot of VMS stuff meant that, once VMS on Itanium was up and running,  G Rdb would be essentially "compile and go".  I don't remember the exact  E response (I think the list is archived; it could be dug up), but the    assumptions were not questioned.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 11:45:31 -0500t* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>  Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons) Message-ID: <3C35DC2B.6050009@compaq.com>s   Phillip Helbig wrote:t  F >>>Remember that a significant part of Oracle Rdb is written in BLISS.K >>>The fact that Compaq stopped supporting BLISS on NT, was the main reason. >>>h6 >>Can you back up that statement?  That is news to me. >> > H > Which statement?  That a significant part of Oracle Rdb is written in I > BLISS, or that the fact that Compaq stopped supporting BLISS on NT was e* > the reason Rdb on NT was never released? >     G The second statement that Compaq stopped supporting BLISS on NT.  That tG statement is untrue.  Using that as the reason for Oracle not shipping rE Rdb on NT is pure speculation.  There may have been some discussions  H about how much support would be provided, etc., but I can tell you that * BLISS on NT still exists today internally.       -- i John Reagan.' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadera   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:20:00 +0100 (MET)q9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>u  Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons; Message-ID: <01KCOL1ORR028ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>o  I > The second statement that Compaq stopped supporting BLISS on NT.  That rI > statement is untrue.  Using that as the reason for Oracle not shipping 'G > Rdb on NT is pure speculation.  There may have been some discussions lJ > about how much support would be provided, etc., but I can tell you that , > BLISS on NT still exists today internally.+                                  ^^^^^^^^^^ H I think there are two or three separate issues here.  First, unless one H actually made the decision, any talk of why something is not supported, E was not released etc is speculation.  I think we all agree on that.  ,I There has certainly been a lot of such speculation in this forum, if not rH always a lot of agreement.  :-)  Second, a question: does Compaq supportF BLISS on NT for external customers?  If I understand things correctly,E BLISS itself is not "supported" for external customers (i.e. it is oneF the freeware CD etc) but nevertheless is used internally at Compaq forE VMS (and at Oracle for Rdb etc).  Third, if Compaq supports BLISS (onrG NT) for external customers, I assume it would be on Intel, since Compaq>& does not support NT on ALPHA anymore.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:33:41 -0500t* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>  Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons) Message-ID: <3C35E775.4090801@compaq.com>c   Phillip Helbig wrote:q  ' Second, a question: does Compaq support ' > BLISS on NT for external customers?  l    H No, BLISS isn't actually sold at all anymore for any platform.  Various I BLISS kits exist on the Freeware CD (as you pointed out) but the Windows a NT version isn't one of them.e  G However, understand that Oracle isn't your average "external customer" eI given the importance of Rdb and Oracle to the OpenVMS customer base.  If oC Oracle finds a BLISS bug it certainly gets higher attention than a cH random bug submitted via some informal mechanism like a post here or an I email to whereever the BLISS readme points you to (I think there is some i2 generic account provided for "as is" bug reports.)       -- i John Reagana' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:38:21 +0100a9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>a  Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons& Message-ID: <3C35E88D.8A541F4@aaa.com>  8 Well, I didn't meen that BLISS was desuported from *all*0 platforms, or that Compaq dind't continue to use
 it internaly.   7 What I was trying to say was, that Oracle, from *there*E6 point of view, couldn't release Rdb on NT because they7 could not get the support *they* needed on BLISS for NTc5 from Compaq. And if this was on NT/Intel or NT/Alpha,&" I don't know, but I'd guess Alpha.  = I'm 100% sure that I heard an Rdb technician saying somethingo= that verify this on one of the "Rdb technical Forums" shortly   after. That's *not* speculation.  7 I think John also points at this : "There may have been.@ some discussions about how much support would be provided, etc."   Anyway, it's history now...c   Jan-Erik Sderholm.t   John Reagan wrote: > H > The second statement that Compaq stopped supporting BLISS on NT.  ThatH > statement is untrue.  Using that as the reason for Oracle not shippingF > Rdb on NT is pure speculation.  There may have been some discussionsI > about how much support would be provided, etc., but I can tell you thats, > BLISS on NT still exists today internally. >  > --
 > John Reagan ) > Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaderl   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:04:44 -0500 * From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DEC ' Message-ID: <3C35C48C.30803@compaq.com>c   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:   E > Remember that a significant part of Oracle Rdb is written in BLISS.uJ > The fact that Compaq stopped supporting BLISS on NT, was the main reason    4 Can you back up that statement?  That is news to me.  F While Compaq never sold BLISS for NT, we certainly continue to use it F for the Fortran products (both on Alpha NT and IA32 NT) since the GEM 5 component of the compiler is written mostly in BLISS.        --   John Reaganc' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:44:43 +0100-9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DEC-' Message-ID: <3C35CDEB.DA3667BA@aaa.com>c  3 Hm, I didn't know there *was* an Alpha NT at all...P  5 And it *could* of course has been that Compaq stoppedk support for BLISS on c& Alpha NT for *external* users, such as: Oracle. Never mind, I clearly remember it as beeing *some*: trouble with the support for BLISS that stopped Rdb on NT.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.l     John Reagan wrote: > G > While Compaq never sold BLISS for NT, we certainly continue to use itoG > for the Fortran products (both on Alpha NT and IA32 NT) since the GEM 7 > component of the compiler is written mostly in BLISS.p >  > --
 > John Reagann) > Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaderh   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 02 11:34:39 GMTi From: jmfbahciv@aol.comtX Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a14bf0$lhd$1@bob.news.rcn.net>C  4 In article <0H2Z7.2548$cD4.5034@www.newsranger.com>,K    Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP> wrote:a, >On Thu, 03 Jan 02 09:34:42 GMT, in article   <a11g1s$1s3$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  >>
 >>In article dK >><Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDUs >,1 >>   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:r$ >>>On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:G >>>> > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the properi >>>> > word here...aF >>>>    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before BLISS-36). >>> I >>>Only people who can't program in any language would be so stupid as ton. >>>prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language. >>>>F >>>BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly language.  But on the  PDP-10,M >>>BLISS was a complete waste. >># >>And made den mothers very cranky.t  H >[Since I have left the cross-post to alt.sys.pdp10 in, I should mentionH >that I am speaking from the viewpoint of a VMS person, and I have never >used a PDP-10.] >-H >Having seen many pro _and con_ BLISS comments over the years I have nowB >become interested in understanding what attributes of BLISS cause" >such firm feelings on both sides. >2I >Note that I have never written a program in BLISS, but I am aware of thepI >general syntax of BLISS-32. I do have experience in a range of languagesdH >however (from Pascal type languages, to C/Perl, to assembly languages),/ >so comparisons to other languages are welcome.s  < Somebody else mentioned the use of periods to generate code.< In those days, laser was still a word that made one think of scifi not paper.   >q5 >I should also comment that, since this does seem to -: >inspire strong feelings for some reason, I am interested ) >in the _facts_ and not religious fanaticu >type responses. :-) :-)  > Here is a fact.  Whenever I had to add a CUSP that was written? in BLISS on the tapes, I spent ...emoticon makes guesstimate...@> 3/4 of my time for the whole project trying to get the fucking< thing to compile..not load..not execute..not function...just7 compile.  And this was _after_ the developer thought hen" was done working on the project.    C The fact that I couldn't do any packaging work on a CUSP written ineA BLISS without inventing at least three new swears isn't religion.u  < I just went through my slash folder that contains all of my > "notes to myself" for the 7.04 project.  I'd say at least half3 of them had to do with "fixing up" packaging DIL.  e  < Missing files.  Missing code.  Uncompilable code.  Code thatB expected code to be in unexpected places.  There was no consistent? standard with the fucking thing, let alone documentation of itse
 defaults.   : And, oh, yeah.  There a bug in BLISS-10.  It was easier to9 install a monitor patch to avoid the bug than change the  = BLISS compiler; it was impossible to produce a new release.  .  : And this last one wasn't unique to BLISS-10.  When JMF was= doing the Alpha, he hit his head on a bug.  The only possible:< way to fix it was to write a workaround because there was no9 way that the real bug would get fixed in the higher levelf6 language before the monitor for the Alpha was to ship.  7 Doing OS development in an HLL just plain sucks due to n' production time cycles of dependencies.d     /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 14:31:25 GMTiF From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)X Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <11jZ7.280$5Y4.6342@news.cpqcorp.net>o   In article <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031728530.20229-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes: >_K >Writing VMS in an HLL was the right idea.  Using BLISS was not.  No wonder : >Cutler jumped at the chance to reinvent VMS in C with NT.  I Although I'm no big fan of BLISS, I don't think this is a fair statement.o  E At the time VMS development started, C as a language was still prettyD@ crude, and totally non-standardized.  I don't think you could do? many of the things the language does now that are necessary fori4 good operating system (or even general) programming.  ; Of course, some people would say that even today C has somer= problems with typing, etc., but it's a lot better than it wasd
 back then.  ? When BLISS first came out, it really did some things that othere? languages had difficulty accomplishing.  FORTRAN and COBOL were A touted as 'standard' and 'portable', but moving from one platforme> to another still created problems.  Even moving BASIC programs7 from one platform to another sometimes caused problems.h  @ Early on, we (I was a customer then) were impressed that Digital@ could write the EDT editor in BLISS, and it would run on several= different PDP-11 operating systems on 16 bit hardware, VMS on.= 32 bit hardware, and TOPS on 36 bit hardware.  Not many othern" languages could do that back then.  < Aside from the syntax problems (and I always felt that there? was something fundamentally wrong with a language that requiredt= you to spell words backwards), the biggest problem with BLISSeA is that nobody besides Digital used it, even though it originatedt> independently at a University.  That pretty much marked it for= eventual extinction.  It's still used at Compaq because a lotn? of code is written in it, and all of that code still works, ando> can still be maintained because the compilers still work.  But@ I think everyone agrees that there won't be much new development in BLISS in the future.    -- l(  B. Z. Lederman   Personal Opinions Only  8  Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission8  to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing  list of any kind.  5  Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have a 5  legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:11:50 -0500d* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>X Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C35C636.70809@compaq.com>    Mark Crispin wrote:   D > If I remember correctly, assignment was underscore.  Another wart,F > assuming that the world is still Model 35 Teletypes with 1963 ASCII.J > Also, you didn't use the dot on the left side of assignments.  Hence you/ > wrote "X_.Y;" for "x = y;", yet another wart.  >     - No, assignment is "=" just like you'd expect.t  2 So you write "x = .y;" in BLISS and "x = y;" in C.  > Forgetting dots (or adding too many) in indeed a common BLISS L programming error.  Just like I often say "if (x = y)" in C instead of "==".  F As for saying that it is a "wart" for throwing away most 'expression' C values when writing BLISS as 'statements', I don't see it that way nC myself.  BLISS seems very orthogonal and consistent at least to me.      -- w John Reagans' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaderr   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:54:38 +0100e9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>iY Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC o' Message-ID: <3C35C22E.F44C6D8E@aaa.com>I   "Bart Z. Lederman" wrote:X [about BLISS...]  ) > It's still used at Compaq because a lotqA > of code is written in it, and all of that code still works, andi@ > can still be maintained because the compilers still work.  ButB > I think everyone agrees that there won't be much new development > in BLISS in the future.r  C Remember that a significant part of Oracle Rdb is written in BLISS. H The fact that Compaq stopped supporting BLISS on NT, was the main reasonG that Rdb for NT never was realesed (besides the "developer workbench").iE This was, AFAIR, before (or shortly before) NT for Alpha was stopped.l  @ So it's not *only* Compaq that does real development in BLISS...   Jan-Erik Sderholm.t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:16:15 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC rV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201040717520.21933-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  + On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Bart Z. Lederman wrote:oG > At the time VMS development started, C as a language was still prettyiB > crude, and totally non-standardized.  I don't think you could doA > many of the things the language does now that are necessary foro6 > good operating system (or even general) programming.  C Nonsense.  At the time VMS development started, there was but one C > compiler in the world and just one entity doing C development.  F Even the very oldest C is quite usable for operating system or generalG programming.  Everything added since then is sugar.  It may be nice and?I tasty sugar.  ANSI function prototyping is a big win; it is delightful tofE let the compiler do argument casting for you (particularly on systems @ where ints and longs are different sizes).  But it's still sugar nonetheless.  = Try "Digital was unaware of C, and didn't particularly care."g  A > When BLISS first came out, it really did some things that othercA > languages had difficulty accomplishing.  FORTRAN and COBOL wereiC > touted as 'standard' and 'portable', but moving from one platforma@ > to another still created problems.  Even moving BASIC programs9 > from one platform to another sometimes caused problems.   @ As if BLISS-10 programs were portable to BLISS-36 or BLISS-11???  B > Early on, we (I was a customer then) were impressed that DigitalB > could write the EDT editor in BLISS, and it would run on several? > different PDP-11 operating systems on 16 bit hardware, VMS on ? > 32 bit hardware, and TOPS on 36 bit hardware.  Not many otherm$ > languages could do that back then.  I I think that you're greatly overstating the portability of BLISS programso to/from 36-bit hardware.  > > Aside from the syntax problems (and I always felt that thereA > was something fundamentally wrong with a language that requiredw? > you to spell words backwards), the biggest problem with BLISSiC > is that nobody besides Digital used it, even though it originated @ > independently at a University.  That pretty much marked it for > eventual extinction.  G There's a reason why nobody besides Digital used BLISS.  DEC didn't usepD BLISS either.  The dichotomy between Digital and DEC is important to" understand the subsequent history.  ) > It's still used at Compaq because a lotxA > of code is written in it, and all of that code still works, andI; > can still be maintained because the compilers still work.a  F Compare that situation to the applications written in BLISS for 36-bitJ hardware.  Even when first distributed, applications written in BLISS wereJ unmaintainable since most of them couldn't be compiled outside of Digital.I Not even if you had the damn compiler.  Just about the only thing written F in BLISS the customer stood a chance of being able to maintain was the Fortran compiler.   C This includes an important part of the TOPS-20 EXEC (shell, commandvH decoder, pick your favorite nomenclature) that was unfortunately writtenE in BLISS.  Essentially, all we have are linkable object files of thatr
 component.  F Digital applications written in BLISS (note that DEC never used BLISS)H were notorious for their poor quality and lack of robustness.  You couldI tell, just by running the application, that it was written in BLISS, eveno before looking at the binary.m  A And if a BLISS application had a bug and crashed, there wasn't an I icecube's chance in hell of being able to fix it, even as a binary patch. G The object code generated by the BLISS compiler was completely bizarre,iD unlike code generated by any other compiler.  It was as if the BLISSH compiler had no awareness of the PDP-10 architecture, and was generatingG code for some other architecture that was translated at the last momente into PDP-10 code.s  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc-F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 17:47:13 GMTg( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC l2 Message-ID: <a14pr1$1vou$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  V In article <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201040717520.21933-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,- Mark Crispin  <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:e, >On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Bart Z. Lederman wrote:H >> At the time VMS development started, C as a language was still prettyC >> crude, and totally non-standardized.  I don't think you could doiB >> many of the things the language does now that are necessary for7 >> good operating system (or even general) programming.o  D >Nonsense.  At the time VMS development started, there was but one C? >compiler in the world and just one entity doing C development.R  H That is, at the time VMS development was started "C" was not even on theE radar. Even if it might have made more sense to use C than BLISS (and8K I can't argue otherwise, really) I don't think there's any reason to expectg9 the people making the decision to have even *heard* of C.t  > >Try "Digital was unaware of C, and didn't particularly care."  > ... and can't really have been expected to know about it, yes.  H A stripped-down Algol or PL/1 might have been better solutions. PL/M wasJ Intel's system language, and while it had its own share of oddities it wasH quite usable, and very similar in functionality to C. The main downsidesC to PL/M were the untyped pointers and simplistic case statement (nonH default, and if you fed it a bad input it jumped into the weeds). On theF upside, it had typed function arguments (AKA prototypes) and hooks for assembly-level operations.   >> FORTRAN and COBOL wereoD >> touted as 'standard' and 'portable', but moving from one platform% >> to another still created problems.h  G Actually, I've found that it's easier to write portable code in FortrantI than in most languages, though that may partly have been due to the kindsn( of things you actually wrote in Fortran.  H I'll go along with COBOL. I did some COBOL porting, that was unpleasant.   -- e@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:27:34 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>RY Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC cV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201041017210.22025-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  $ On 4 Jan 2002, Peter da Silva wrote:J > That is, at the time VMS development was started "C" was not even on theG > radar. Even if it might have made more sense to use C than BLISS (andTM > I can't argue otherwise, really) I don't think there's any reason to expecta; > the people making the decision to have even *heard* of C.t  J I first heard about VAX and VMS in the mid-70s.  By that time, they shouldF have known what Bell Labs was doing with all those PDP-11s, even if at# that time UNIX was mostly internal.8  ' BCPL was widely available by that time.c  A > A stripped-down Algol or PL/1 might have been better solutions.   H Agreed.  Univac used Algol, and PL/1 was the system language on Multics.0 Both of these were already old hat by that time.  I > Actually, I've found that it's easier to write portable code in FortranTK > than in most languages, though that may partly have been due to the kindsb* > of things you actually wrote in Fortran.  J Definitely true.  DEC adhered to Fortran II style I/O for a long time, butB for the most part Fortran IV is Fortran IV no matter where you go.  J > I'll go along with COBOL. I did some COBOL porting, that was unpleasant.  J I think that COBOL's problem was creeping featurism and too much leeway toF add non-portable means of I/O to the language.  COBOL itself should beD quite portable, except that hardly anyone ever wrote a 100% standard compliant COBOL program.  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrcoF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:23:44 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>eW Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what wentwrong at DECa1 Message-ID: <JumZ7.302$5Y4.6447@news.cpqcorp.net>X  E Well, certainly they *did* know what C was.  But the quality of the C>H compilers of the time, wasn't exactly something to write home about.  InK retrospect, if anyone knew that a lab rat (UNIX) would escape from the lab,eI interbreed, and take over the world - I imagine they might have thought a1@ little closer about perhaps using C, and other design decisions.  J Of course, C still doesn't embrace things that they wanted to avoid - likeF minimizing buffer overflows.  So VMS could have written its own set ofI library routines and not used the standard C ones - which would have madee  the language choice even dumber.    # Peter da Silva wrote in message .... >In articlehK <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201040717520.21933-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,a. >Mark Crispin  <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:- >>On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Bart Z. Lederman wrote: I >>> At the time VMS development started, C as a language was still prettyeD >>> crude, and totally non-standardized.  I don't think you could doC >>> many of the things the language does now that are necessary forI8 >>> good operating system (or even general) programming. >rE >>Nonsense.  At the time VMS development started, there was but one Co@ >>compiler in the world and just one entity doing C development. > I >That is, at the time VMS development was started "C" was not even on the F >radar. Even if it might have made more sense to use C than BLISS (andL >I can't argue otherwise, really) I don't think there's any reason to expect: >the people making the decision to have even *heard* of C. > ? >>Try "Digital was unaware of C, and didn't particularly care."S >h? >... and can't really have been expected to know about it, yes.g >sI >A stripped-down Algol or PL/1 might have been better solutions. PL/M was K >Intel's system language, and while it had its own share of oddities it washI >quite usable, and very similar in functionality to C. The main downsides D >to PL/M were the untyped pointers and simplistic case statement (noI >default, and if you fed it a bad input it jumped into the weeds). On the G >upside, it had typed function arguments (AKA prototypes) and hooks fore >assembly-level operations.d >y >>> FORTRAN and COBOL wereE >>> touted as 'standard' and 'portable', but moving from one platforme& >>> to another still created problems. >cH >Actually, I've found that it's easier to write portable code in FortranJ >than in most languages, though that may partly have been due to the kinds) >of things you actually wrote in Fortran.  > I >I'll go along with COBOL. I did some COBOL porting, that was unpleasant.  >w >--pA >Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.                                  WWFD?i > G >"Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept"h > -- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)   ------------------------------    Date: 03 Jan 2002 22:28:13 -1000/ From: Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>bG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for then2 Message-ID: <wwn0zumsf6.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>  = >>>>> "Mark" == Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:   (  Mark> On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:?  >> I don't care what OS you run, nothing "gets between" an addd.  >> instruction and the CPU that's running it.  D  Mark> Ah, the ignorance of youth.  He's never heard of an IBM 1620.  6 Not to mention page faults or hardware trace traps :-)   Nothead    ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 02 09:06:44 GMTa From: jmfbahciv@aol.comiG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for theg+ Message-ID: <a142pm$lnv$1@bob.news.rcn.net>C  C In article <a8cZ7.45084$ll6.6639388@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>,m3    "Adam Price" <adam+usenet@pappnase.co.uk> wrote:a >e: >"Ben Franchuk" <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote in message & news:3C34A2E0.712960B4@jetnet.ab.ca... >> Mark Crispin wrote: >>H >> > Nope.  It's a computer.  It was also called the CADET.  CADET is anI >> > acronym.  "A" was add.  Can you guess what the rest was, and why it , was  >> > called that?a >> >H >> > [To the other people who know: please, don't spill the beans yet.   Let'sd= >> > see if the young'uns can come up with it by themselves.]h >>K >> I don't see how other than pure luck. I lot of people now days would not I >> know a punched card even if they saw one. Mind you sometimes you stilloJ >> see a magnetic tape drive used as a computer in a odd movie or TV show.  D >Other than pure luck, there's always google. It was worth the look.  " Good for you [looking it up].  :-)   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.n   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 08:54:14 -0600o- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)eG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thes3 Message-ID: <0v6MNPnfVjPW@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  Z In article <3C34A2E0.712960B4@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes: > J > I don't see how other than pure luck. I lot of people now days would notH > know a punched card even if they saw one. Mind you sometimes you stillI > see a magnetic tape drive used as a computer in a odd movie or TV show.d  G    I still see a magnetic tape drive every time I do backups.  Just noti    9-track anymore.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:25:12 -0700n+ From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca>-G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thed, Message-ID: <3C34CC38.D9615F71@jetnet.ab.ca>   Jim Thomas wrote:r > ? > >>>>> "Mark" == Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:L > * >  Mark> On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:A >  >> I don't care what OS you run, nothing "gets between" an add-0 >  >> instruction and the CPU that's running it. > F >  Mark> Ah, the ignorance of youth.  He's never heard of an IBM 1620. > 8 > Not to mention page faults or hardware trace traps :-) > 	 > Nothead0  E How can they...  windows gives the blue screen of death on every pages	 fault. :) ; I think virtual memory causes more problems than it solves!l -- l% Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * + www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.htmls   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 17:53:37 GMTt( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the 2 Message-ID: <a14q71$202c$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  , In article <3C34CC38.D9615F71@jetnet.ab.ca>,- Ben Franchuk  <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:f< >I think virtual memory causes more problems than it solves!  - "Virtual memory leads to virtual performance"I  0 "Memory is like sex, it's better when it's real"  $ 	-- both attributed to Seymour Cray.  L VM solves a lot of problems, and if you're working in an area where you needL those problems solved a VM system sure beats the heck out of spending monthsJ tweaking TKB maps to fit everything into overlays. If you're working in anG area like realtime where other problems crop up all the time, well, youD0 probably want to use a different kind of system.  2 Remember when we *had* different kinds of systems?  
 No smiley.   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:41:54 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>8 Subject: Re: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media?) Message-ID: <3C35A312.8BFA5983@127.0.0.1>N   Brian Tillman wrote: > L > I am trying to write a tape on an Exabyte 8505 (aka TZ15) that can be readM > by an Exabyte 8200.  I'm using OpenVMS VAX 7.2.  Can it be done?  So far mytN > experiments have not panned out.  Neither the /DENSITY nor the /MEDIA_FORMATN > qualifiers on the INITIALIZE and MOUNT commands have had any effect.  I alsoJ > wrote a tape on the 8200 and the 8505 couldn't read it.  Suggestions are
 > welcome.  H When I was involved with these beasts, the 85xx had a switch, and with aC power cycle it behaved like an 82xx. This thing was reasonably baree bones as it was in a stacker.C  H I'm a bit concerned you can't read the 8200 tape in the 8500, we used toC do this all the time, but head alignment has a lot to do with it astE well. I heard a story about a drive that would read and write its owna6 tapes but no others because it had an alignment fault.   --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 13:21:20 GMTe= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)r8 Subject: Re: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media?0 Message-ID: <00A07881.40EC473E@SendSpamHere.ORG>  T In article <3C35A312.8BFA5983@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: >Brian Tillman wrote:  >> sM >> I am trying to write a tape on an Exabyte 8505 (aka TZ15) that can be readrN >> by an Exabyte 8200.  I'm using OpenVMS VAX 7.2.  Can it be done?  So far myO >> experiments have not panned out.  Neither the /DENSITY nor the /MEDIA_FORMAT O >> qualifiers on the INITIALIZE and MOUNT commands have had any effect.  I alsotK >> wrote a tape on the 8200 and the 8505 couldn't read it.  Suggestions aret >> welcome.r >eI >When I was involved with these beasts, the 85xx had a switch, and with a D >power cycle it behaved like an 82xx. This thing was reasonably bare >bones as it was in a stacker. >,I >I'm a bit concerned you can't read the 8200 tape in the 8500, we used totD >do this all the time, but head alignment has a lot to do with it asF >well. I heard a story about a drive that would read and write its own7 >tapes but no others because it had an alignment fault.o >o >-- ) >Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences  >nclews at csc dot com  B I had a customer with a 8200 used to do all of their backups.  TheC first drive wore out and needed to be replaced.  The new 8200 wouldtC not read a single old tape even though it could read its own.  SomeiB testing with the old tapes on various other 8200s proved that theyC could be or could not be read by the various other drives used.  In C otherwords, the observed consistency of 8200 transports made me nott- recommend them as backup systems for VMS use.d  C I have a 8500 which seems to be far more stable and consistent, and C I've not had a complaint from any customer that has needed to read  C a tape written on my 8500.  This hasn't been a large population.  I B think that 4mmDAT and DLT proved to be better or more popular tape
 solutions. --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             nJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:53:12 GMTp  From: chrisv <chrisv@chrisv.com>; Subject: Re: Compaq still tries to spin Alphacide both wayst8 Message-ID: <m8rb3u8a2q4c5v2tr0atdj0c64ppfhodp0@4ax.com>  0 Brannon_Batson@yahoo.com (Brannon Batson) wrote:  < >Again, you're implying that this was an entirely artificialE >limitation.  Out of curiosity, what would be Compaq's motivation fors9 >witholding PCI 66 support if not for a technical reason?t   LOL.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:40:37 -05002 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"1 Message-ID: <f8jZ7.282$5Y4.6205@news.cpqcorp.net>B  & Just so the org is some what straight.  2 Jackie Kahle - VP HPS (High Performance Marketing) Mark Gorham - VP OpenVMS Group) Rich Marcello - VP High Performance group H Rick Frazier - VP Marketing reporting to Howard Ellias - he is not doing# Rich's previous job Mark Gorham is.M   Warm Regards suef  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C3547BE.6FDC0826@swissonline.delete.ch...- >- >- > Warren Spencer wrote:: > > 8 > > mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch (John McLean) wrote in. > > <3C275771.109494F8@swissonline.delete.ch>: > ...  > > >n8 > > >I'd put a brief introduction to this and send it toK > > >Rick.Frazier@compaq.com and Jackie.Kahle@compaq.com (who is out of theh) > > >office but will be back on Jan 7th).C > ...i > >.J > > Thanks for the suggestion John.  Who (besides CPQ employees) are these > > people?t > >t > I > In April 2000 Rick Frazier was vice president of Marketing for Compaq'sII > Business Critical Solutions Group but I believe that since Marcello hastI > moved up a rung, Frazier has stepped up to Marcello's old role.  (I sawoG > something about this yesterday somewhere and I'll try to confirm this  > later today).w >dJ > AFAIK, Jackie Kahle is responsible for VMS and Tru64 marketing.  I thinkI > she reports to Mary-Ellen Fortier... Maybe someone can confirm that ford > us.s >e >  > John   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:17:24 GMTy4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"- Message-ID: <8IjZ7.6091$B85.246346@rwcrnsc53>a  = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in messaged+ news:f8jZ7.282$5Y4.6205@news.cpqcorp.net...l( > Just so the org is some what straight. >d4 > Jackie Kahle - VP HPS (High Performance Marketing)  > Mark Gorham - VP OpenVMS Group+ > Rich Marcello - VP High Performance groupeJ > Rick Frazier - VP Marketing reporting to Howard Ellias - he is not doing% > Rich's previous job Mark Gorham is.  >d  J All of the above are IMHO Good Folks who should not be maligned in this orL other forums. I have known all of the above individuals for half a decade or  more, and they all do good work.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:32:48 -0000'- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)e6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"7 Message-ID: <918C6F2C7warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>w  5 terryshannon@mediaone.net (Terry C. Shannon) wrote inC# <8IjZ7.6091$B85.246346@rwcrnsc53>:     > > >"Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message, >news:f8jZ7.282$5Y4.6205@news.cpqcorp.net...) >> Just so the org is some what straight.0 >>5 >> Jackie Kahle - VP HPS (High Performance Marketing)r! >> Mark Gorham - VP OpenVMS Group , >> Rich Marcello - VP High Performance groupE >> Rick Frazier - VP Marketing reporting to Howard Ellias - he is notr, >> doing Rich's previous job Mark Gorham is. >> >0H >All of the above are IMHO Good Folks who should not be maligned in thisF >or other forums. I have known all of the above individuals for half a+ >decade or more, and they all do good work.a >m >   L Does it makes sense to contact any of these people to say that the PC bunch H is using the "enterprise platform" phrase inappropriately?  Or would it H make more sense to contact the PC group, since they were apparently the & ones running the telephone survey... ?  L And to be honest, I have no intention of contacting anyone.  I reported the L mis-step here to provide another data point on CPQ's marketing efforts, for ! those who are interested in such.    ws   -- o   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)  The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:50:27 GMTu4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms", Message-ID: <7bkZ7.7670$MK.115374@rwcrnsc54>  : "Warren Spencer" <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote in message1 news:918C6F2C7warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100... 7 > terryshannon@mediaone.net (Terry C. Shannon) wrote inh$ > <8IjZ7.6091$B85.246346@rwcrnsc53>: >  > >o@ > >"Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message. > >news:f8jZ7.282$5Y4.6205@news.cpqcorp.net...+ > >> Just so the org is some what straight.  > >>7 > >> Jackie Kahle - VP HPS (High Performance Marketing)o# > >> Mark Gorham - VP OpenVMS Groupr. > >> Rich Marcello - VP High Performance groupG > >> Rick Frazier - VP Marketing reporting to Howard Ellias - he is notr. > >> doing Rich's previous job Mark Gorham is. > >> > >cJ > >All of the above are IMHO Good Folks who should not be maligned in thisH > >or other forums. I have known all of the above individuals for half a- > >decade or more, and they all do good work.y > >h > >  >pG > Does it makes sense to contact any of these people to say that the PCr bunch I > is using the "enterprise platform" phrase inappropriately?  Or would itdI > make more sense to contact the PC group, since they were apparently theo( > ones running the telephone survey... ? >eI > And to be honest, I have no intention of contacting anyone.  I reportedv the I > mis-step here to provide another data point on CPQ's marketing efforts,f forr# > those who are interested in such.d  I Thanks for supplying the information... my comments on the aforementioned = individuals were based on my experience in dealing with them.0  E What might be interesting is a grassroots volunteer marketing effort. H Wouldn't it be ironic if a bunch of volunteers could craft and deliver aF more compelling message than Compaq itself has managed to deliver? ;-}   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:09:14 +0100l1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>t6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"5 Message-ID: <3C35E1BA.D1EF5811@swissonline.delete.ch>V    Many thanks for your input, Sue.     John     Sue Skonetski wrote: > ( > Just so the org is some what straight. > 4 > Jackie Kahle - VP HPS (High Performance Marketing)  > Mark Gorham - VP OpenVMS Group+ > Rich Marcello - VP High Performance groupSJ > Rick Frazier - VP Marketing reporting to Howard Ellias - he is not doing% > Rich's previous job Mark Gorham is.o >  > Warm Regards > sue. > @ > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message1 > news:3C3547BE.6FDC0826@swissonline.delete.ch...n > >o > >, > > Warren Spencer wrote:n > > >o: > > > mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch (John McLean) wrote in0 > > > <3C275771.109494F8@swissonline.delete.ch>: > > ...s > > > > : > > > >I'd put a brief introduction to this and send it toM > > > >Rick.Frazier@compaq.com and Jackie.Kahle@compaq.com (who is out of thet+ > > > >office but will be back on Jan 7th).  > > ...  > > >eL > > > Thanks for the suggestion John.  Who (besides CPQ employees) are these
 > > > people?a > > >- > > K > > In April 2000 Rick Frazier was vice president of Marketing for Compaq'soK > > Business Critical Solutions Group but I believe that since Marcello has.K > > moved up a rung, Frazier has stepped up to Marcello's old role.  (I sawnI > > something about this yesterday somewhere and I'll try to confirm thiss > > later today).t > > L > > AFAIK, Jackie Kahle is responsible for VMS and Tru64 marketing.  I thinkK > > she reports to Mary-Ellen Fortier... Maybe someone can confirm that for  > > us.  > >W > >  > > John   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 08:35:31 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)-3 Subject: Re: Congratulations for the festive seasonm3 Message-ID: <bCjpm1$QSPb2@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  W In article <pv3Z7.3825$E82.11098@typhoon.bart.nl>, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> writes:s > You could post it :-) 9 > I'd be interested to read it, just for old time's sake.t >  > Hans > : > Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message  I >>    I wrote a "BLISS for C Programmers" doc as an exercise to make surenJ >>    I knew BLISS.  It's got a few errors in it, but if I change the nameH >>    (e.g. C Programmers eqla Dummies) do you think I could sell a few?  D    OK, that's the second request.  Let me get a couple of the bugs ID    know out of it, then I'll post it.  You guys want the raw .rno or    just the .mem?n   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 13:09:05 GMT8= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)mD Subject: Re: CONV$ not supported? was: Copying a file in C++, again.0 Message-ID: <00A0787F.8AB466C4@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <gg2rI7aZ$h7d@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:lW >In article <3C34C466.2090007@compaq.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes: ' >> Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman- wrote:> >> > >>> K >>> So John, you'll accept responsibility for the CONVSHR problem I'm going> >>> to submit?  :) >>   >> uO >> No problem.  I know how to re-assign problem reports.  It is what I do best.  >p >Psst.  Brian -  > 9 >Recode the call to CONVSHR in very obscure Pascal, usinge8 >at least 5 environment files private to the reproducer.3 >Be sure it depends on several custom Schema Types.e >c1 >Submit it to anyone, and it will get to John :-)   I Please, it's bad enough I have to suffer C (and occasionally C++) and theo) folly of the fools that write most of it.-   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMu            fJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesa   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 07:57:58 GMT * From: Jerome DIDIER <jerome.didier@opc.fr> Subject: DDCMP and RAS* Message-ID: <a13na6$1e1$1@news.x-echo.com>  H Is it possible to access to a VMS server from a PC under Winnt/2000 via 	 a modem ?i  & =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-7 Article poste via Voila News - http://www.news.voila.fraH Le : Fri Jan  4 08:57:58 2002 depuis l'IP : gate29.mc2.net [VIP 8470396]   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 09:10:17 -0600:- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)u Subject: Re: DDCMP and RAS3 Message-ID: <oPw9eoEVWb2a@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  W In article <a13na6$1e1$1@news.x-echo.com>, Jerome DIDIER <jerome.didier@opc.fr> writes: J > Is it possible to access to a VMS server from a PC under Winnt/2000 via  > a modem ?a      Yes.>   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:40:30 GMTn4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: DDCMP and RAS0 Message-ID: <3C35DA3F.C10627E2@blueyonder.co.uk>   Jerome DIDIER wrote: > I > Is it possible to access to a VMS server from a PC under Winnt/2000 viac > a modem ?o >   G well, you will need two modems, one on the PC and one on the VMS servertF (or possibly on a terminal server connected to the same LAN as the VMS server).  = Have you tried it? If so, what problems have you encountered?u   regardsB  ( > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-9 > Article poste via Voila News - http://www.news.voila.frgJ > Le : Fri Jan  4 08:57:58 2002 depuis l'IP : gate29.mc2.net [VIP 8470396]   -- t Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  u  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:31:42 GMTr4 From: Pierre Thomas <pierre-thomas@club-internet.fr> Subject: Re: DDCMP and RAS# Message-ID: <1103_1010169102@baloo>e  : Probablement si vous disposez de UCX (pile TCP/IP) sur VMSP disponible  partir de la version 6.2 . Il faut alors configurer une liaison PPP, sur le systme OpenVMS dans WinNT / Win2000.  @ Pour une connexion DDCMP la seule possibilit  ma connaissance A est d'utiliser le produit Pathworks. Malheureusement les liaisons.D distantes par DDCMP ne sont supportes que sous Win 3.11, 95, 98 et  peut-tre WinNT. y  > Sur 4 Jan 2002 07:57:58 GMT, dans comp.os.vms vous avez crit:J > Is it possible to access to a VMS server from a PC under Winnt/2000 via  > a modem ?m > ( > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-9 > Article poste via Voila News - http://www.news.voila.frDJ > Le : Fri Jan  4 08:57:58 2002 depuis l'IP : gate29.mc2.net [VIP 8470396]   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:02:49 +01002 From: "Robert Boers" <robert.boers@softresint.com> Subject: Re: Emulation...e* Message-ID: <3c35a7fb$1@news.deckpoint.ch>  H The full function CHARON-VAX products emulate a MicroVAX 3600 with 64 MBI memory and include Ethernet adapter emulation (DELQA, DESQA, DEQNA, etc).nJ There are two emulation models available, the 'traditional' CHARON-VAX andI the 3-5 times faster CHARON-VAX Plus. The latter uses Dynamic InstructionxI Translation and runs a bit faster than a VAX 4000/500A on a 1 GHz Pentium B system. You can log into our online CHARON-VAX Plus demo system at www.vaxemulator.com   E It does not make sense to emulate a QDSS or QVSS (would cause lots ofuK overhead mapping to the graphics on the host system) but you can connect anhK Xterminal emulator like the one in Pathworks 32 via Ethernet. On a dual CPUeL Windows host you can run the Xterminal emulator in the same box. Performance* is pretty good. Even DECwrite is usable...  I Ultrix-32 works fine on both CHARON-VAX for Windows and the OpenVMS/AlphaeH host versions; we have several customers running it (they have compilers only running on Ultrix).   Robert Boers  Software Resources international www.softresint.com  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:aa0Z7.253$5Y4.5449@news.cpqcorp.net...0G > I believe that SRI toyed with the idea of QDSS or QVSS emulation, butsI > decided not to do it... it would have been a lot of work, for very slowiL > graphics.  For X11 you don't need a local display, just set the display to( > the host and use DECnet to talk to it. >  >d >.E > John Santos wrote in message <1020103113105.61316A@Ives.egh.com>...e( > >On 3 Jan 2002, Bill Gunshannon wrote: > >r8 > >> In article <Bl2nMEY1GtNH@eisner.encompasserve.org>,5 > >>  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:nF > >> |> In article <VGsV7.30617$Sj1.13613235@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry1 > C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: 	 > >> |> >aJ > >> |> > Hmmm... perhaps the CHARON-VAX folks at SRI can provide a Better > Answer toi > >> |> > that question. ;-}	 > >> |> >g > >> |> L > >> |>    Now there's a thought.  Pick up the Charon-VAX for OpenVMS Alpha, > anduL > >> |>    load a copy of Ultrix-32 on it.  Now all you've got to do is find5 > >> |>    someone who still has Ultrix-32 apps.  8-)e > >>K > >> A few minor problems with that.  First, there is no way your are goingt to, > >> get an Ultrix-32 License out of Compaq. > >>H > >> Second, most of the desired apps are windowed like Office Suites or other H > >> graphics stuff.  CHARON-VAX is an MV-II.  Somehow I doubt that they
 > included! > >> even QVSS in that emulation.s > >>H > >Does that matter?  Assuming X, can't you run the app on emulated MVII4 > >(client) and display on the host system (server)? > >e= > >Or was Ultrix-32 pre-X, and supported only local graphics?  > >tG > >Does Charon-VAX include DELQA/DEQNA emulation (or some other networkoG > >interface)?  Is there some kind of built-in shortcut so the host can I > >see Ethernet packets destined to it without them actually going out oncJ > >the wire?  If so, it should be pretty fast.  You would need an X-server > >package for your host.a > >rL > >> Speaking of which, anyone got a couple of M7602-YA modules they want to > >> get rid of??  :-) > >>	 > >> billw > >> > >g > >--m > >John Santos > >Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc.n > >781-861-0670 ext 539n > >a >n >r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 08:38:32 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s Subject: Re: Emulation...n, Message-ID: <3C35B043.8DF0893E@videotron.ca>   Robert Boers wrote:- > J > The full function CHARON-VAX products emulate a MicroVAX 3600 with 64 MBK > memory and include Ethernet adapter emulation (DELQA, DESQA, DEQNA, etc). L > There are two emulation models available, the 'traditional' CHARON-VAX andK > the 3-5 times faster CHARON-VAX Plus. The latter uses Dynamic InstructionnK > Translation and runs a bit faster than a VAX 4000/500A on a 1 GHz Pentium 	 > system.i  F Out of curiosity, how does your software differ in philosophy with theF Softwindows that emulates a 486 with Windows-95  running on a power-pc Macintosh ?   N Do you have charron-vax specific files that go into VMS to add functionality ?G (for instance, the softwindows version adds a few files to the standardJN windows to, for instance, use the mac's TCPIP stack instead of windows, and toH have the clipboards shared between the macos and windows, and of course,U network file sharing that allows windows to map mac folders to a windows disk drive.)l  N Or do you provide solely a hardware environment where VMS boots thinking it isN alone with no real way for it to share/communicate to the supporting operating system ?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:29:55 +01002 From: "Robert Boers" <robert.boers@softresint.com> Subject: Re: Emulation...p( Message-ID: <3c35ca76@news.deckpoint.ch>  @ The design goal is binary hardware compatibility, to stay VAX OSH independent. You can also run VAXeln, NetBSD etc. No extra files needed.  K VMS folders are typically mapped to a Windows disk drive (or network share)eL but remain in VMS format. Other options exist; you can actually reconnect anK entire VAX SCSI disk to the Windows host via a SCSI controller and boot VMSa from it.  D There are a number of extensions, like internal Ethernet, allowing aE connection between the VAX environment and a process on the host (andeJ multiple instances of CHARON-VAX running as a cluster on a single SMP hostI system). We also provide F-11, an extension of the Windows explorer which G allows cut and paste both ways between a VAX disk image and the WindowsrA environment (while the emulator is running), with implicit formateD conversion. None of these need additional files to be loaded in VMS.   Robert   >d@ > Do you have charron-vax specific files that go into VMS to add functionality ?eI > (for instance, the softwindows version adds a few files to the standardoI > windows to, for instance, use the mac's TCPIP stack instead of windows,r and toJ > have the clipboards shared between the macos and windows, and of course,J > network file sharing that allows windows to map mac folders to a windows disk drive.) >0J > Or do you provide solely a hardware environment where VMS boots thinking it is9F > alone with no real way for it to share/communicate to the supporting	 operatingt
 > system ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:47:59 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> Subject: Re: Emulation...M, Message-ID: <P8kZ7.2804$Sf2.12011@rwcrnsc52>  = "Robert Boers" <robert.boers@softresint.com> wrote in messagep$ news:3c35a7fb$1@news.deckpoint.ch...J > The full function CHARON-VAX products emulate a MicroVAX 3600 with 64 MBK > memory and include Ethernet adapter emulation (DELQA, DESQA, DEQNA, etc).kL > There are two emulation models available, the 'traditional' CHARON-VAX andK > the 3-5 times faster CHARON-VAX Plus. The latter uses Dynamic Instruction K > Translation and runs a bit faster than a VAX 4000/500A on a 1 GHz PentiumtD > system. You can log into our online CHARON-VAX Plus demo system at > www.vaxemulator.com  >sG > It does not make sense to emulate a QDSS or QVSS (would cause lots ofoJ > overhead mapping to the graphics on the host system) but you can connect anI > Xterminal emulator like the one in Pathworks 32 via Ethernet. On a dual  CPU B > Windows host you can run the Xterminal emulator in the same box. Performanced, > is pretty good. Even DECwrite is usable... >eK > Ultrix-32 works fine on both CHARON-VAX for Windows and the OpenVMS/Alpha J > host versions; we have several customers running it (they have compilers > only running on Ultrix). >m > Robert Boers" > Software Resources international > www.softresint.com  F I have tested and evaluated SRI's emulation technology and it is quiteL intriguing. Well worth a look, especially the new Pico-VAX Hobbyist version.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 08:13:52 GMT:- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)@& Subject: Re: File sharing under VAXELN5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-RvOO7hTFjMTf@localhost>o  ? On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:17:06, pearsonb@windows-devel.com (Brian P Pearson) wrote:i  G > I have a fixed-length record file that acts as a circular log which Ir? > cannot make shareable. I've tried every EPASCAL OPEN argumentaH > combination in the book but once the file is opened its cannot be readF > by another process. I suspect the problem might be the result of theH > EPASCAL file handling (as opposed to the VMS-style file handling). Any6 > ideas out there, to point me in the right direction. >  > Some background: > E > - Using EPASCAL in VAXELN system on remotes (very remote, no EDEBUGc > sessions).G > - Log process creates and opens the fixed-length record file and doesm5 > the logging. It keeps the file opened all the time.rE > - Other process would like to open the file for readonly access buto4 > return status is always 'locked by other process'.  @ Just a quick question to make it clear. Are the two OPENs being F excuted by processes (Jobs) on the same node or is DecNet and the FAL E involved? I'm not back at work until the 9'th Jan so I couldn't look  4 at my copy of the Docs or do any playing until then.   -- 0 Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 02 09:19:34 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.como: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a143ho$lnv$2@bob.news.rcn.net>}   In article -K <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201031703520.20229-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,a/    Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:C% >On 4 Jan 2002, Peter da Silva wrote:"I >> So how often have you needed to rename ALL your ".somethingelse" files  >> to ".c"? Ever?  >o/ >On TOPS-10, TOPS-20, VMS, and DOS, frequently.r  H If one is producing procedures for packaging software, it may be hourly.   <snip>  H >> This specific example is very popular with VMS users, but in practiceH >> when have you ever needed to do this on UNIX? I don't think I've ever. >> got a reasonable response to this question. >aI >You need it if you're a baby UNIX user coming from another OS where thatt> >is the way that you do it.  But most baby UNIX users grow up.   <snip>  6 Aw, man!  I haven't been born yet.  :-(  I'd forgotten: a number of things I didn't like about Unix.  You guys are
 reminding me.i   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.a   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 08:23:11 -0600q- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <+nrd$V$2ITAc@eisner.encompasserve.org>(  a In article <u39i9i2u2o7n8e@corp.supernews.com>, Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:c? > In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:uC > :> You don't have to _relearn_ it unless you have very bad short-n > :> or long-term memory.o > H > :    You do when you're forced to change shells, which is what I said.F > :    Then concept is the same in most shells, but the syntax for csh > :    and ksh don't match.S > $ > No one is forced to change shells.  C    They are in the real world.  As when you have to get work done a ;    system that doesn't have a ksh, which you've been using.   F > :    Fortunatley now I have a ksh compatable shell on all my systemsG > :    and can count on always using that, but there were days when kshD= > :    was not around and I had to go learn csh or something.. > ? > I've been on systems all over the world for my last employer,sA > some that were setup 10 years ago, others that were set up thatr > year.  All had ksh.  > ? > Have YOU been on a Unix box in teh last 10 years that did note > have ksh?r >       Yes.r   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 08:24:10 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)h: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <quHXyfHwI1LK@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  a In article <u39iclnv46tgb7@corp.supernews.com>, Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:.? > In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:aB > :> I guess this is a matter of religion.  Just this week I spentC > :> 4 hours finding a client's problem _caused_ by version #s.  It:+ > :> would not have been a problem on Unix.0 > F > :    Again it sounds like you've got a system which doesn't know how! > :    to handle version numbers.  >  > No, Bob, it was a VMS system.l  H    No, it wan't the OS that seemed to be the problem, it appears to haveA    been the app.  You didn't post details, but lots of apps can'th    deal with them.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 08:27:14 -0600>- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)g: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <obpbyckb7eKn@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ] In article <a12sqc$107o$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:s > H > So how often have you needed to rename ALL your ".somethingelse" filesI > to ".c"? Ever? When was the last time that you needed to rename a whole J > directory of files and the translation was as simple as one extension to
 > another?  B    Couple times a week.  As in just the week before Christmas, andD    probably again next week.  You didn't expect me to be doing it at    home, did you?h   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 08:25:46 -0600-- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)7: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <Tl9Kss0z7zTC@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  Y In article <3C34D1F0.41E4FDBA@bellatlantic.net>, badbob <sfmc68@bellatlantic.net> writes:i   > Sorry Bob,E > when a hammer is your only tool, all problems look solvable with a eE > hammer.  I have favorite dialects, I certainly do not prefer bliss,tD > i think that is the first part of Blister on the Ass of progress..9 > not ure which "S" set is used to make the word bliss...r > bobj  A    Out tools were:  MACRO-10, FORTRAN-10, and COBOL-10.  No moneye:    or justification to get any others.  BLISS-10 was free.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 08:31:33 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <9AbU$ekoGeoT@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  c In article <v57Z7.142857$m05.12498466@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, geary@io.com (Big Bird) writes:n > F > How do I do it? We're running 7.3. This is what I get when I try it. >  > $ rename t.t t.w.tJ > %RENAME-E-OPENOUT, error opening DISK$DEV_USER:[GEARYM]T^.W.T; as output' > -RMS-E-ENT, ACP enter function failedb/ > -SYSTEM-W-BADFILEVER, bad file version number  > $ rename t.t;1 t.w.t;1O > %DCL-W-PARMDEL, invalid parameter delimiter - check use of special characters- >  \;1\-  3    1) make sure it's an Alpha, VAXen don't do ODS-5s8    2) a privileged user changes you from ODS-2 to ODS-5:  )       set volume /structure_level=5 disk:]      3) rename/log t.t t.w.tM    %RENAME-I-RENAMED, USER1:[KOEHLER]t.t;1 renamed to USER1:[KOEHLER]t^.w.t;1   H    ^ is the escape character which the file system uses to show that theE    first . is not the name.extension separator, but you don't have tom2    enter it when you're handling the file by name.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 07:17:32 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201040715010.21933-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  ! On 4 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:s5 >    1) make sure it's an Alpha, VAXen don't do ODS-5   ? Strike one.  It isn't a VMS feature, it's an Alpha VMS feature.   : >    2) a privileged user changes you from ODS-2 to ODS-5:+ >       set volume /structure_level=5 disk:   J Strike two.  It isn't a user-accessible feature, it's something that a god user has to do.-   >    3) rename/log t.t t.w.tO >    %RENAME-I-RENAMED, USER1:[KOEHLER]t.t;1 renamed to USER1:[KOEHLER]t^.w.t;1eJ >    ^ is the escape character which the file system uses to show that theG >    first . is not the name.extension separator, but you don't have tos4 >    enter it when you're handling the file by name.  E Strike three.  There's this random ^ character inserted in the outputt name.t  ' VMS is out.  But thank you for playing.c  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrcQF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:49:01 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <FdkZ7.288$5Y4.6420@news.cpqcorp.net>a  I Yes.  But it may not have fully worked in earlier versions.  I believe itsI all works in COE, and in the next V7.3 based release.  I just tested thatn command on a COE system.  E You can have multiple dots, and you can rename all versions of a file * modifying just the case of the files even.   _Fredo  = JF Mezei wrote in message <3C34CFD6.CA6055D0@videotron.ca>...r$ >> Why don't you show us how to make >>" >>      rename *.a.part2 *.b.part1 >>C >> work on VMS?  Because you can't. The file systems are different,r? >> and VMS doesn't allow multiple periods in a file name, whilen
 >> UNIX does.i >c* >Hasn't this changed on Alpha with ODS-5 ?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:55:22 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>S: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <CjkZ7.289$5Y4.6430@news.cpqcorp.net>X  G This works on COE, and I know on the next V7.3 based release.  We fixedu! (finished) a lot of this for COE..   $ set proc/case=sens/parse=ext $ cre bar.foo.me.too ^Z( $ rename bar.foo.me.too bar.foo.me.three $ dirr   Directory DKA100:[SYS0.SYSMGR]   bar^.foo^.me.too;1   Total of 1 file.         Big Bird wrote in message ... 4 >In article <aG+zrzJjrdPo@eisner.encompasserve.org>,/ >Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote: L >< In article <3C348512.B8B9593F@srv.net>, Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> writes: >< >$ ><   The file systems are different,; >< > and VMS doesn't allow multiple periods in a file name.  ><J ><    Yes it does.  Please catch up to at least only a couple of years out of( ><    date before posting such nonsense. > E >How do I do it? We're running 7.3. This is what I get when I try it.h >U >$ rename t.t t.w.t I >%RENAME-E-OPENOUT, error opening DISK$DEV_USER:[GEARYM]T^.W.T; as output & >-RMS-E-ENT, ACP enter function failed. >-SYSTEM-W-BADFILEVER, bad file version number >$ rename t.t;1 t.w.t;1dC >%DCL-W-PARMDEL, invalid parameter delimiter - check use of specialn
 characters > \;1\ >t >Mark Geary  >--d  >    "Build high for happiness."   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:59:43 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>(: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <HnkZ7.290$5Y4.6380@news.cpqcorp.net>e  ! Mark Crispin wrote in message ... " >On 4 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:6 >>    1) make sure it's an Alpha, VAXen don't do ODS-5 >r@ >Strike one.  It isn't a VMS feature, it's an Alpha VMS feature. >e    F What is your point?  You have a lot of new VAXes you are using for new development?  ; >>    2) a privileged user changes you from ODS-2 to ODS-5:6, >>       set volume /structure_level=5 disk: >)K >Strike two.  It isn't a user-accessible feature, it's something that a godH >user has to do. >1  L Usually the volume is created as ODS-5, so unless you are migrating to a new) disk structure - this is not interesting.f   >>    3) rename/log t.t t.w.tj8 >>    %RENAME-I-RENAMED, USER1:[KOEHLER]t.t;1 renamed to USER1:[KOEHLER]t^.w.t;1sK >>    ^ is the escape character which the file system uses to show that the H >>    first . is not the name.extension separator, but you don't have to5 >>    enter it when you're handling the file by name.b > F >Strike three.  There's this random ^ character inserted in the output >name. >r  I To preserve backward compatability, VMS will display and allow files with0H "special" characters using the ^ as an escape (like C with a backslash).L You don't *need* to include it on input.  And if you were using the filenameI in a C application, using C calls, you can get the name without the ^ (bypA indicating with a logical that you want UNIX filename semantics).,  ( >VMS is out.  But thank you for playing. >e    B VMS is out with you regardless.  Is someone trying to convince you
 otherwise?   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 10:18:11 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <g0aw8xarXmbE@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  i In article <FdkZ7.288$5Y4.6420@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: K > Yes.  But it may not have fully worked in earlier versions.  I believe itmK > all works in COE, and in the next V7.3 based release.  I just tested thate > command on a COE system. > G > You can have multiple dots, and you can rename all versions of a fileS, > modifying just the case of the files even.  B Certainly that is a proper improvement over the current situation.B While today one can rename a single-versioned file, and that is asA good as Unix since Unix does not have multiple versions, the goaliF is to be _better_ so that one can have all features available to them.  F If VMS Development eventually gets sufficient Unix emulation in place,F I would expect some Unix fans would be happy to choose VMS just to get file versioning.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:26:09 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201040819580.21933-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  * On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:I > This works on COE, and I know on the next V7.3 based release.  We fixedf# > (finished) a lot of this for COE.c >n > $ cre bar.foo.me.too > ^Z* > $ rename bar.foo.me.too bar.foo.me.three > $ diro  > Directory DKA100:[SYS0.SYSMGR] > bar^.foo^.me.too;1 > Total of 1 file.  D Two bugs.  First, the RENAME seems to have failed silently.  Second,G there's this spurious output of ^ characters.  If I wanted a file namedr1 "bar^.foo^.me.too" I would have named it as such.d  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrchF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:34:39 +0000 % From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>r: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C35D99F.7691C668@iee.org>0   Peter da Silva wrote: H > So how often have you needed to rename ALL your ".somethingelse" filesI > to ".c"? Ever? When was the last time that you needed to rename a whole J > directory of files and the translation was as simple as one extension to
 > another?  " Well I have recently needed to do  	*.tif -> *.tiff (or vice versa ...) where * wasX( "more than I wanted to handle manually".+ I'd downloaded them (with wget) as .tif andr the tool wanted .tiff.  G > This specific example is very popular with VMS users, but in practiceoG > when have you ever needed to do this on UNIX? I don't think I've ever - > got a reasonable response to this question.S  5 In my case it wasn't on VMS - does it still count :-)s  " I didn't realise this was a common$ request from OpenVMS users ... I've $ wanted to do it at various times for% various reasons on various platforms.n# Next time it crops up, I'll try ando remember to make a note ...   * On OpenVMS it's obviously trivial, on Unix* it's reasonably easy (at least once you've1 been shown a method) and on Windows (if you don'ts1 have 4DOS or some such) it's usually quick enough ( to feed the directory to a text file and& mangle in any semi-intelligent editor.   Antonioe   -- m   ---------------n- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgs   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:12:10 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <DrlZ7.293$5Y4.6404@news.cpqcorp.net>   ! Mark Crispin wrote in message ...F+ >On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:0J >> This works on COE, and I know on the next V7.3 based release.  We fixed$ >> (finished) a lot of this for COE. >> >> $ cre bar.foo.me.toom >> ^Zr+ >> $ rename bar.foo.me.too bar.foo.me.threea >> $ dir! >> Directory DKA100:[SYS0.SYSMGR]  >> bar^.foo^.me.too;1  >> Total of 1 file.o >sE >Two bugs.  First, the RENAME seems to have failed silently.  Second,lH >there's this spurious output of ^ characters.  If I wanted a file named2 >"bar^.foo^.me.too" I would have named it as such. >n    J Yeah, I know you are just being a jerk, but it didn't fail, I typed in theE output (and apparently my fingers disengaged from my brain).  The "^" ? character is not in the filename, but is displayed this way fori1 compatability with existing OpenVMS applications.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 09:11:23 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>r: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201040826560.21933-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  * On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:8 > >>    1) make sure it's an Alpha, VAXen don't do ODS-5B > >Strike one.  It isn't a VMS feature, it's an Alpha VMS feature.H > What is your point?  You have a lot of new VAXes you are using for new > development?  . It's a waste of a good Alpha to run VMS on it.  J Then again, Compaq so badly broke advfs in OSF/1 that people are giving upJ on Alphas, so I guess some retrocomputing fan may want to intercept one on# the way to the dumpster to run VMS.e  = > >>    2) a privileged user changes you from ODS-2 to ODS-5:t. > >>       set volume /structure_level=5 disk:M > >Strike two.  It isn't a user-accessible feature, it's something that a godi > >user has to do.N > Usually the volume is created as ODS-5, so unless you are migrating to a new+ > disk structure - this is not interesting.n  H So what happens if you make a distribution archive and try to restore it2 to one of the old filesystems?  Horrible error 69?  H > >Strike three.  There's this random ^ character inserted in the output > >name.K > To preserve backward compatability, VMS will display and allow files with J > "special" characters using the ^ as an escape (like C with a backslash).* > You don't *need* to include it on input.  G Which means that you can't have compatiblity with names that have thoseqF "special" characters.  This also means that a script which may use theE output from DIR as well as other sources for file names has no way ofe" knowing what is actually intended.  $ > And if you were using the filenameK > in a C application, using C calls, you can get the name without the ^ (byoC > indicating with a logical that you want UNIX filename semantics).   E See above.  How can a script which takes filenames from the output ofYG another program know, precisely, what foo^.bar.baz means?  Is it a fileT3 named "foo.bar.baz" or a file named "foo^.bar.baz"?x  H Presumably, to make a file named "foo^.bar.baz" you would need to createG "foo^^.bar.baz".  Or is it "foo^^^.bar.baz"?  How then does the program 4 clearly convey its intention to subsequent programs?  B Yes, I know.  You don't do this sort of advanced scripting on VMS.  H TOPS-20's CTRL/V (which served the purpose of ^) was pretty bad too, butI at least it was unambiguous.  There was only one way that a name could be.B generated, and only one possible interpretation for an input name.  I VMS, on the other hand, seems to have the worst of both with this kludge.r  H In any case, why should "foo^.bar.baz" be different from "foo.bar^.baz"?G Why is there something special about a dot that is unquoted, unless you-J are trying to cling to the old notion that a "filename" and an "extension"H are two entirely separate fields?  TOPS-20 was roasted for this, and theC critics were right; the OS has no business making this distinction.l  G It also looks like "*" breaks on "." on VMS.  Or maybe it stops on somet "." but not other?  2 Hey, don't blame me.  You built this kludge tower.  * > >VMS is out.  But thank you for playing.D > VMS is out with you regardless.  Is someone trying to convince you > otherwise?  H Digital sure tried pretty hard to do so back in 1983.  And now, with theI long-overdue demise of VMS at hand, we have the spectacle of VMS groupiesn: blaming people who went to UNIX instead of supporting VMS.  C It's so lovely to hear that in the 21st century, VMS development iseI addressing design flaws first observed in the late 1970s and early 1980s.tA So when is VMS going to have CTRL/T?  Recognition and completion, J including partial completion?  What about "?" (sheesh, even Microsoft does a better job!)?h  F Or is it still the policy of VMS development that these will "never be% done because they are inefficient"???n  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 09:52:51 -0800r+ From: David Eppstein <eppstein@ics.uci.edu>t: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECA Message-ID: <eppstein-63806C.09525104012002@news.service.uci.edu>    In article iK <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201040826560.21933-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,--  Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:2  J > In any case, why should "foo^.bar.baz" be different from "foo.bar^.baz"?I > Why is there something special about a dot that is unquoted, unless youiL > are trying to cling to the old notion that a "filename" and an "extension"J > are two entirely separate fields?  TOPS-20 was roasted for this, and theE > critics were right; the OS has no business making this distinction.   I The OS does have a business making a distinction between a file name and iE metadata about what sort of file it is.  Treating the metadata as an sL extension of the file name isn't great, but the Unix strategy of not having  any metadata is even worse.e  * There's a good discussion of this issue in@ http://www.arstechnica.com/reviews/01q3/metadata/metadata-1.html -- 0F David Eppstein       UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science6 eppstein@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 17:56:31 GMTZ( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a14qcf$2045$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  0 In article <qhvgei9aqx.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,5 Eric Smith  <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:t+ >peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: I >> So how often have you needed to rename ALL your ".somethingelse" files J >> to ".c"? Ever? When was the last time that you needed to rename a wholeK >> directory of files and the translation was as simple as one extension to  >> another?e  J >I've occasionally wanted to rename a bunch of ".htm" files to the correct >extension, ".html".  H Well, damn, you're right. That is one case where it's important. LuckilyJ that also happens to be a case where the shell loop is easy. Plus, can you= even do that in VMS? I thought it was limited to thr chr ext.   9 And that *is* a one-off. You don't need to go back again.f   -- n@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)n   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 18:16:02 GMT0( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a14rh2$20q0$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  4 In article <a130ar$255r$1@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org>,6 Bill Pechter <pechter@i4got.pechter.dyndns.org> wrote:= >It's pretty common with windows users with FILEXXX.DOC which ) >needs to be renamed filexxx.doc, though.h  ? I don't see a "lowercase" option in either Windows "ren" or VMSE> "rename". Do newer VMS versions maintain the case of filenames anyway?   B If I had to do that kind of thing monthly, I'd write a script that> did it and fixed up any other windows-related awfulness in the file names.s  D >When I have to I resort to xargs.  I don't have to like it, though.  B I wouldn't. Let's see... Windows file names don't have newlines or9 backslashes in the filename part, so this should be safe:p  	 #!/bin/shi   ls ${1+"$@"} | while read file   do2     target="`echo $file | tr '[A-Z ~]' '[a-z__]'`"     newfile="$target"-     index=0      while [ -f $newfile ]5     do       index="`expr $index + 1`"t       newfile="$target.$index"     done"     if [ ".$file" != ".$newfile" ]     then mv "$file" "$newfile"     fi   done  F If performance was an issue, I'd do a little sed script to gen a shell script and run it like this:  " ls ${1+"$@"} | sed -f $script | sh  B But my sed is too rusty to come up with a good solution right now.   -- o@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:18:22 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>f: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <GpmZ7.301$5Y4.6454@news.cpqcorp.net>a  ! Mark Crispin wrote in message ...-+ >On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:09 >> >>    1) make sure it's an Alpha, VAXen don't do ODS-5zC >> >Strike one.  It isn't a VMS feature, it's an Alpha VMS feature.DI >> What is your point?  You have a lot of new VAXes you are using for new, >> development?e >x/ >It's a waste of a good Alpha to run VMS on it.t > K >Then again, Compaq so badly broke advfs in OSF/1 that people are giving up K >on Alphas, so I guess some retrocomputing fan may want to intercept one onG$ >the way to the dumpster to run VMS. >l    H Look I apologize for whoever the moron was that started this thread, andL crossposted to these groups.  You certainly have expressed, and are entitled@ to your opinion on Alpha, VMS, and anything that isn't a PDP-10.  > >> >>    2) a privileged user changes you from ODS-2 to ODS-5:/ >> >>       set volume /structure_level=5 disk:<J >> >Strike two.  It isn't a user-accessible feature, it's something that a god  >> >user has to do. K >> Usually the volume is created as ODS-5, so unless you are migrating to ae newr, >> disk structure - this is not interesting. >OI >So what happens if you make a distribution archive and try to restore itP3 >to one of the old filesystems?  Horrible error 69?l >e  H You can restore an archive (backup) from ODS-2 to ODS-5 without problem.K You may have some problems with names if you try to go the other way (ODS-5  being a superset).  G I have no idea what a "error 69" is?  Somthing from TOPS-10?  Is this a5 Firesign Theater skit?  I >> >Strike three.  There's this random ^ character inserted in the outputo	 >> >name. L >> To preserve backward compatability, VMS will display and allow files withK >> "special" characters using the ^ as an escape (like C with a backslash).u+ >> You don't *need* to include it on input.S >kH >Which means that you can't have compatiblity with names that have thoseG >"special" characters.  This also means that a script which may use themF >output from DIR as well as other sources for file names has no way of# >knowing what is actually intended.d >:  K VMS will happily take both foo.bar.too and foo^.bar.too  - depending on theoD context you may need the "^" because old code might not like the nonK standard characters.  The dot isn't an interesting one - but say a colon isfF another story.  You can have a valid file name called "foo:bar" but inJ standard VMS filename syntax, the colon is a device seperator - so insteadI you need "foo^:bar.".  This allows the standard VMS utilities and commandnL file interpretor to handle the names.  An application using C that uses UNIXF semantics on the other hand will see and use "foo:bar" as it expected.  J The output from the DIR can be used as input into any normal VMS utility -J including the "^" characters... even if they might also take the same name without the "^" character.    % >> And if you were using the filenameoL >> in a C application, using C calls, you can get the name without the ^ (byD >> indicating with a logical that you want UNIX filename semantics). >tF >See above.  How can a script which takes filenames from the output ofH >another program know, precisely, what foo^.bar.baz means?  Is it a file4 >named "foo.bar.baz" or a file named "foo^.bar.baz"? >     F Because, if I remember the naming rules correctly, the syntax would be something like foo^^^.bar.baz   I >Presumably, to make a file named "foo^.bar.baz" you would need to createsH >"foo^^.bar.baz".  Or is it "foo^^^.bar.baz"?  How then does the program5 >clearly convey its intention to subsequent programs?  >   I What isn't clear?  "foo^^^.bar.baz" seems unambiguous.  The only place it J might not be, is if it was passed on a command line to a UNIX application,L which assumed that this actually had 3 ^^^ in it.  So yes, if you are mixingJ VMS naming and UNIX naming and UNBIX applications and VMS utility output - it needs special attention.o  C >Yes, I know.  You don't do this sort of advanced scripting on VMS.e >i    J VMS in general doesn't want, need, or give a rats behind about the specialI characters, and mixed case.  The need to support them comes from the needeF for interoperability with UNIX and NT applications.  So we evolved theG standard naming conventions to allow non-UNIX, native-VMS utilities andgE applications to be able to operate on these unconventional filenames.J  I >TOPS-20's CTRL/V (which served the purpose of ^) was pretty bad too, but:J >at least it was unambiguous.  There was only one way that a name could beC >generated, and only one possible interpretation for an input name.F > J >VMS, on the other hand, seems to have the worst of both with this kludge. > I >In any case, why should "foo^.bar.baz" be different from "foo.bar^.baz"? H >Why is there something special about a dot that is unquoted, unless youK >are trying to cling to the old notion that a "filename" and an "extension"fI >are two entirely separate fields?  TOPS-20 was roasted for this, and the,D >critics were right; the OS has no business making this distinction. >rH >It also looks like "*" breaks on "." on VMS.  Or maybe it stops on some >"." but not other?d >r    K Come on.  We're doing the best we can to extend naming while *not* breaking- things.-  3 >Hey, don't blame me.  You built this kludge tower.0 > + >> >VMS is out.  But thank you for playing.cE >> VMS is out with you regardless.  Is someone trying to convince youD
 >> otherwise?e >gI >Digital sure tried pretty hard to do so back in 1983.  And now, with theyJ >long-overdue demise of VMS at hand, we have the spectacle of VMS groupies; >blaming people who went to UNIX instead of supporting VMS.s >iD >It's so lovely to hear that in the 21st century, VMS development isJ >addressing design flaws first observed in the late 1970s and early 1980s.B >So when is VMS going to have CTRL/T?  Recognition and completion,K >including partial completion?  What about "?" (sheesh, even Microsoft doesa >a better job!)? >     3 When are you going to move on, and get over TOPS20?N  G >Or is it still the policy of VMS development that these will "never beS& >done because they are inefficient"??? >t    I Nope.  I think that was the excuse in the beginning.  Then compatability.sL Then because the owners of things didn't want to.  Now it's because it isn'tL really high on the list of things that would be interesting to do - that is,J will it sell any systems?  Or is it preventing people from buying VMS.  IfI *you* (yes you) promise to buy a GS320, I'll dig out the DCL code and seeO how to hack it in.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:09:50 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201040943240.22025-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  * On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:	 > The "^"uA > character is not in the filename, but is displayed this way forD3 > compatability with existing OpenVMS applications.p  I But by your own admission, the display of "^" is modal.  Thus there is noiI way of knowing whether "foo^.bar.zap" means the file "foo.bar.zap" or thei file "foo^.bar.zap".  G Nor is there any way to convey the name "foo^.bar.zap" unambiguously tobJ another program, since "foo^^.bar.zap" and "foo^^^.bar.zap" can mean other file names.>  F So, any script that processes names generated by other programs has to) know the mode used by that other program.s  G You wouldn't have had the problem if you hadn't made the display modal.o0 This probably means that input is modal as well.  J You've already stated that you were obliged to build this kludge tower forH compatibility with the past.  These things happen.  Just admit that this= is a case in which VMS is inferior to UNIX (or even TOPS-20).i  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc-F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 18:26:34 GMTo( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a14s4q$213p$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  A In article <eppstein-63806C.09525104012002@news.service.uci.edu>,r- David Eppstein  <eppstein@ics.uci.edu> wrote: J >The OS does have a business making a distinction between a file name and ( >metadata about what sort of file it is.  G One of the things Apple got right at the OS level, though the Amiga hadfL enough hooks that you could get the same results, and newer versions of NTFS% have finally made completely general.    > Treating the metadata as an M >extension of the file name isn't great, but the Unix strategy of not having t >any metadata is even worse.  I I would argue that not having metadata is better than having metadata you K can't trust. At least then you know you have to manage metadata externally. K The consequences of untrustable metadata in file names, well, that way liesoF most of the Internet Explorer and Outlook exploits over the last year.   -- o@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)M   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:37:25 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <xHmZ7.304$5Y4.6383@news.cpqcorp.net>l  ! Mark Crispin wrote in message ... + >On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:w
 >> The "^"B >> character is not in the filename, but is displayed this way for4 >> compatability with existing OpenVMS applications. >aJ >But by your own admission, the display of "^" is modal.  Thus there is noJ >way of knowing whether "foo^.bar.zap" means the file "foo.bar.zap" or the >file "foo^.bar.zap".t >s    J The display of foo^.bar.zap from the directory command is always identical to, foo.bar.zap  - it never means foo^^^.bar.zap  H >Nor is there any way to convey the name "foo^.bar.zap" unambiguously toK >another program, since "foo^^.bar.zap" and "foo^^^.bar.zap" can mean othero >file names. >r  J This is true ONLY in the case of a C application that has enabled explicitJ UNIX filename syntax compatability.  Which right now, is ONLY done on someD COE applications (since it's brand new).   So given any existing VMS% application, the name is unambiguous.a  H The only ambiguity would be if the USER typed the name foo^.bar.zap when' what he really meant was foo^^^.bar.zapm  K The fact that the user can enter the name foo.bar.zap is only because it is.A unambiguous as well as being equivalent to foo^.bar.zap as input.s  K Code that sees the files without the escape characters tends to be externaldL (non-VMS) applications running pathworks, ftp, or nfs to look at a file on aL VMS disk.  In which case the escape characters never come into play, becauseF these applications are NT/UNIX applications accessing a VMS disk file.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 09:03:47 -0600t- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)V% Subject: Re: Hobbyist: Phase IV or V? 3 Message-ID: <hg4bTAK2cRct@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  \ In article <3C34D0BB.EA42265E@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote:E >>    Which means I'm now thinking of upgrading to Phase IV so my kid  >>    can run Flight Simulator.f > P > I had found a way to make it work with Flight, but I recall spending some timeF > with NCL, but I never bothered finding out how to make it permanent. > N > Upgrade to Decnet-4. It requires much less disk space, is more efficient forP > machines with less memory, and unless you really need to have DECNET travel asV > TCP-IP packets, there is no need for the extra hassles of DECNET-5 on small systems.  E    Did that last night.  If you had it working but not permanent, did/C    you happen to write down the NCL?  I think I know how to make itd
    permanent.-  G    Now I'm looking at redoing the Phase IV to Phase V upgrade to see ifa-    it converts my object data base correctly.R   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 12:35:53 -0000i= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> 9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsW6 Message-ID: <20020104123553.31893.qmail@gacracker.org>  J On Thu, 03 Jan 2002, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >Bob Koehler wrote:e >> m> >> In article <3C33B447.EDE26D0E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"" >> <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:L >> > Alright, so let me play devil's advocate for a moment: out of the whole4 >> > of the "public", who should Compaq "say it" to? >> >D >> > I am currently being pressed for this info. in a private e-mailE >> > conversation. I'd like the group's input, if I may be so bold...a >> > >> iG >>    IMHO, they SHOULD get a VMS blimp.  They should run this stuff astN >>    an add in during the Super Bowl.  I really mean the whole of the public. >'@ >absolutely everybody, I agree. People need to know there is an  >alternative to BSOD.    How's about...  F Security and reliability should be the goal of every operating system.. For decades that has been provided by OpenVMS.  K All it needs is followed by the NSA's emblem, with the caption "What do youm think The Men In Black use?"     Doc. -- :6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.netr   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 02 12:00:35 GMTo From: jmfbahciv@aol.com(9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedso+ Message-ID: <a14cvk$rr1$1@bob.news.rcn.net>t  6 In article <20020104123553.31893.qmail@gacracker.org>,A    Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote:lK >On Thu, 03 Jan 2002, Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:  >>Bob Koehler wrote: >>> ? >>> In article <3C33B447.EDE26D0E@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera"i# >>> <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:iH >>> > Alright, so let me play devil's advocate for a moment: out of the  wholev5 >>> > of the "public", who should Compaq "say it" to?e >>> > E >>> > I am currently being pressed for this info. in a private e-mail.F >>> > conversation. I'd like the group's input, if I may be so bold... >>> >e >>> H >>>    IMHO, they SHOULD get a VMS blimp.  They should run this stuff asH >>>    an add in during the Super Bowl.  I really mean the whole of the  public.e >>A >>absolutely everybody, I agree. People need to know there is an t >>alternative to BSOD. g >D >How's about...c >dG >Security and reliability should be the goal of every operating system.,  ; I'd put it stronger.  I'd consider the lack a critical bug.    <snip>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:46:51 GMTn4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsI, Message-ID: <46kZ7.2797$Sf2.11579@rwcrnsc52>  E Odds are increasing that the merger will NOT succeed, so HP's alleged   "admission" is pretty much moot.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:23:00 +0100e1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>r9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsp5 Message-ID: <3C35E4F4.8A7A5261@swissonline.delete.ch>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:' > G > Odds are increasing that the merger will NOT succeed, so HP's allegede" > "admission" is pretty much moot.    , So where goeth Compaq after merger misfire ?   - considered opinions ?? - ill-considered opinions ?? - best rumours ??   - Has Capellas been cut off at the knee caps ??d     John   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:43:45 GMT|4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds , Message-ID: <EQlZ7.3017$Sf2.14173@rwcrnsc52>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C35E4F4.8A7A5261@swissonline.delete.ch...- >- >- > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:r > >JI > > Odds are increasing that the merger will NOT succeed, so HP's allegedm$ > > "admission" is pretty much moot. >h >w. > So where goeth Compaq after merger misfire ?  J Best known to them. My guesstimate is that CPQ will be acquired by someoneI within the next 24 months.In the interim it'll be business as usual. MoretJ emphasis on Services (you may have seen the ads and press releases to thatH effect), Storage, real enterprise OSes. HP-UX *will* be OEMed, but Tru643 development will continue for Alpha EV7x platforms.      >o > - considered opinions ?? > - ill-considered opinions ?? > - best rumours ??l >r/ > Has Capellas been cut off at the knee caps ??m  G Not that I am aware of. And again, I choose not to malign Mr. Capellas,ML particularly on Usenet. In the absence of the information that he has at hisD disposal (run rates, financial roll-ups, projections, etc, etc) such= commentary would be based more on conjecture than on reality.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 13:33:25 -0500 5 From: Dan Goodman <NOdaniel.SPAMgoodman@mail.tju.edu><9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds , Message-ID: <3C35F575.4D337276@mail.tju.edu>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > JF Mezei wrote:y
 > > [snip]P > > VMS doesn't make money. It is a tool used by companies to get work done. AndR > > if you can get the same work done at a lesser cost, then your accountants willP > > get you to move to the cheaper solution, even if it means payiung someone toG > > babysit it and pressing alt-ctrl-del every 2 hours on 100 machines.u > H > Ron Popeil should hear about this. By the end of Feb. 2002, he'll haveG > an infomercial for the Ronco Rebooter - fits easily onto any standard?G > keyboard and reboots computers at pre-determined intervals, or can betA > programmed to detect and reboot a locked machine with a specialiJ > attachment to cycle the power. Only four easy payments of $19.95 (U.S.).D > Call 1-800-238-7448 - and for the first 100 callers, a free Win/XPH > nag-screen eliminator CD! Imagine - total freedom to use XP *YOUR* way > instead of Bill's way! >  > Call TODAY!!!n >  > -- > David J. Dachterah > dba DJE SystemsR > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h  D "And, if you act now, at absolutely no extra charge, we will includeE absolutely *FREE*, not one, but *TWO* cans of spray-on Blue Screen ofaE Death Eliminator, guaranteed to restore your monitor to full lushness 5 and totally hide that bald blue spot on your screen!"f   Dan Goodman  Systems Engineer Specialist $ Thomas Jefferson University Hospital  # <NODaniel.SPAMGoodman@mail.tju.edu>o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 13:41:22 -0500n5 From: Dan Goodman <NOdaniel.SPAMgoodman@mail.tju.edu> 9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds., Message-ID: <3C35F752.FE6DB14D@mail.tju.edu>   joell@mindspring.com wrote:- > F > Don't want too many of those 20 somethings to get started in VMS. UsF > 40 year olds still need a place to hitch our horse. I started a yearD > ago with a major internet firm that has VMS running thier criticalF > core application. I am surrounded by 20 something Unix systems gurusG > who look at me like why do we need these guys. The conversion to Unixo< > for this application failed miserably, twice! Enough said.  H Not quite enough. Absent any detail, this could be as much an indictmentE of undocumented code; absence of functional requirements definitions;oG poor choice of porting methodology; and/or deliberately obfuscated "jobeE security" data or programs, not to mention lack of time/money, and or   maybe they really weren't gurus.     Dan Goodmanr Systems Engineer Specialistb$ Thomas Jefferson University Hospital  # <NODaniel.SPAMGoodman@mail.tju.edu>u   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 19:32:05 +0100 (MET)U9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>^1 Subject: logicals pointing to files opened by DCLU; Message-ID: <01KCONGWPBC28ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>t   OPEN  B      Opens a file for reading, writing, or both; assigns a logicalD      name to a file; and places the name in the process logical name      table.i  G This is mostly done in DCL procedures, and folks don't usually look at   the logicals.  e   I just had a look.  C The logical is of the form _DSA0, i.e. a "device name" without the o- trailing colon and with a leading underscore.e   $ sh log/proc file*    (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)h5 %SHOW-S-NOTRAN, no translation for logical name FILE*i" $ open/write file1 sys$scratch:x.x" $ open/write file2 sys$scratch:x.y $ sh log/proc file*s   (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)m     "FILE1" = "_DSA0"    "FILE2" = "_DSA0"  $ write file1 "XXX" 
 $ close file1 
 $ close file2o $ type sys$scratch:x.%   U1$:[HELBIG.SCRATCH]X.X;27   XXX    U1$:[HELBIG.SCRATCH]X.Y;3"  @ OK, that is "as expected"; the string was written to the file I 	 intended.a   To avoid confusion:n   $ sh log u1$5    "U1$" = "SYS$SYSDEVICE:[USER.]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)n $ sh log sys$sysdevice/    "SYS$SYSDEVICE" = "DSA0:" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)   G There must be some information which HELP OPEN does not mention which, iE despite the fact that the logicals (ostensibly the mechanism through  D which DCL accesses the file) are the same, allow it to write to the  intended file.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 JAN 2002 16:20:18 GMT + From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>0& Subject: Re: MSCP serving 101 question1 Message-ID: <4JAN02.16201830@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>s  < "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@computershare.co.uk> wrote:C > do the allocation classes match on the disks and the controllers?-  I Er - doesn't the allocation class of the controller define the allocationgI class of the disk?  In any case, I did find that the allocation class foroJ 1 controller was 3 and for the other controller and the 3400 was 0.  I setI all to 3 and rebooted but the 4000-90 still doesn't see the 3400's disks.oB I even stopped and restarted the CONFIGURE process on the 4000-90.  F One change is that SHOW DEV $3$D/FULL on the 3400 now reports that theH disks are "served to cluster via MSCP Server" whereas before the changesK to the allocation class the comment was something like "served to cluster".h So that's an improvement.    > are there any device clashes?u   No.h   Dave   >  h: > "Dave Greenwood" <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> wrote in message- > news:3JAN02.18515549@feda01.fed.ornl.gov...gM > > There has got to be an obvious answer to this problem but I can't see it.l > >sJ > > I'm trying to help some folks who had a system disk crash but no imageI > > backup.  The system that crashed is a MicroVAX 3400 with (apparently).L > > two DSSI controllers.  A second system (VAXstation 4000-90, VMS 5.5-2H4)K > > was configured as a boot server and the 3400 was booted as a satellite.oJ > > The idea is to MSCP serve the 3400's disks and rebuild the system disk6 > > from the 4000-90 using INIT and non-image backups. > >rL > > The problem is that the 4000-90 is not seeing either of the 3400's disksL > > (one on each DSSI controller) - ie the disks don't show up with SHOW DEV > D.M > > The 3400 does see the 4000-90 disks in addition to its own.  I've checkedkM > > MSCP_LOAD (1 on both systems) and MSCP_SERVE_ALL (1 on the 3400, 2 on thebA > > 4000-90).  I've done SYSGEN AUTOCONFIGURE ALL on the 4000-90.u > >g- > > What else should I be looing at or doing?a > >d > > Thanks,z > > Dave > > --------------= > > Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVoL > > Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself >  h >  b   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:28:15 -0000; From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@computershare.co.uk>i& Subject: Re: MSCP serving 101 questionB Message-ID: <1010161711.21118.0.nnrp-13.c1edba74@news.demon.co.uk>  ' Sorry I should have been more explicit.X  K I think of DSSI disks as a disk each with its own HSC. The allocation class H for each disk has to be set, I cant actually remember how to do this anyI more. And then, here is the killer, for the host to MSCP serve a disk itsgH allocation class has to be the same as the controller. Is this the case?    8 "Dave Greenwood" <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> wrote in message+ news:4JAN02.16201830@feda01.fed.ornl.gov...n> > "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@computershare.co.uk> wrote:E > > do the allocation classes match on the disks and the controllers?e >mK > Er - doesn't the allocation class of the controller define the allocationoK > class of the disk?  In any case, I did find that the allocation class foreL > 1 controller was 3 and for the other controller and the 3400 was 0.  I setK > all to 3 and rebooted but the 4000-90 still doesn't see the 3400's disks. D > I even stopped and restarted the CONFIGURE process on the 4000-90. >.H > One change is that SHOW DEV $3$D/FULL on the 3400 now reports that theJ > disks are "served to cluster via MSCP Server" whereas before the changesC > to the allocation class the comment was something like "served to 	 cluster".e > So that's an improvement.o > ! > > are there any device clashes?y >. > No.o >e > Dave >  > >,< > > "Dave Greenwood" <greenwoodde@ornl.gov> wrote in message/ > > news:3JAN02.18515549@feda01.fed.ornl.gov...aK > > > There has got to be an obvious answer to this problem but I can't seee it., > > >2L > > > I'm trying to help some folks who had a system disk crash but no imageK > > > backup.  The system that crashed is a MicroVAX 3400 with (apparently)3E > > > two DSSI controllers.  A second system (VAXstation 4000-90, VMSO 5.5-2H4)B > > > was configured as a boot server and the 3400 was booted as a
 satellite.L > > > The idea is to MSCP serve the 3400's disks and rebuild the system disk8 > > > from the 4000-90 using INIT and non-image backups. > > >oH > > > The problem is that the 4000-90 is not seeing either of the 3400's disksoJ > > > (one on each DSSI controller) - ie the disks don't show up with SHOW DEVm > > D.G > > > The 3400 does see the 4000-90 disks in addition to its own.  I've^ checkedpK > > > MSCP_LOAD (1 on both systems) and MSCP_SERVE_ALL (1 on the 3400, 2 on  thehC > > > 4000-90).  I've done SYSGEN AUTOCONFIGURE ALL on the 4000-90.o > > > / > > > What else should I be looing at or doing?C > > >a
 > > > Thanks,n
 > > > Dave > > > --------------? > > > Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOVlG > > > Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for, myself > >u > >g   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 03:52:29 -0500a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m+ Subject: Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons , Message-ID: <3C356D48.840BFF16@videotron.ca>   Rob Young wrote:I >         Sure... a Fortune 500 niche too if broken out, why not?  TandemeG >         would qualify as such and I believe IBM OS/390 and associatedp4 >         hardware would be a Fortune 100 company...  J MVS and Tandem do not have the "Digital is killing VMS" image behind them.I While gartner et all are known to have predicted the death of MVS, IBM is-G known for having stuck to its customers and you don't see IBM customersn" complaining about IBM killing MVS.  L Similarly, Tandem is too "niche" and important that anyone who owns it wouldM be able to kill it. When the value of your company depends on how Wall StreetnN Analysts rate you and they know that Tandem runs wall street, you can't afford" to allow bad rumours about Tandem.  L VMS on the other hand, has sufferered greatly over the years and predictionsM of its death have come closer to fruition than any other predictions. Like itnM or not, VMS is still on a course to its death, with ever narrower niche being  allowed by Compaq.  M Secondly, with the broken commitments and double talk (one side saying "don'tvD worry, VMS is still here" and the other side saying "NT will replaceG everything and we will focus on industry standard stuff"), Compaq has aa% serious credibility problem with VMS.   N And the only way for Compaq to gain some credibility with its discource on VMSJ is to say things so publicly by Capellas that his croonies such as Winkler? will no longer be able to say the opposite whenever they speak.-  H Marcello and below are nice people, but what they say has no credibilityR because the folks above them either ignore VMS or say things that are against VMS.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:39:20 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>+ Subject: Re: Of Blimps and Barrage Balloons ; Message-ID: <I0kZ7.2958$OK.91645@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>c  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C356D48.840BFF16@videotron.ca... > Rob Young wrote:K > >         Sure... a Fortune 500 niche too if broken out, why not?  TandemlI > >         would qualify as such and I believe IBM OS/390 and associatedl6 > >         hardware would be a Fortune 100 company... > L > MVS and Tandem do not have the "Digital is killing VMS" image behind them.K > While gartner et all are known to have predicted the death of MVS, IBM is'I > known for having stuck to its customers and you don't see IBM customersa$ > complaining about IBM killing MVS. >iH > Similarly, Tandem is too "niche" and important that anyone who owns it wouldtH > be able to kill it. When the value of your company depends on how Wall StreetI > Analysts rate you and they know that Tandem runs wall street, you can't  afford$ > to allow bad rumours about Tandem. >eB > VMS on the other hand, has sufferered greatly over the years and predictionsrL > of its death have come closer to fruition than any other predictions. Like itI > or not, VMS is still on a course to its death, with ever narrower nicheo beingg > allowed by Compaq. >eH > Secondly, with the broken commitments and double talk (one side saying "don'tF > worry, VMS is still here" and the other side saying "NT will replaceI > everything and we will focus on industry standard stuff"), Compaq has ae' > serious credibility problem with VMS.E >6L > And the only way for Compaq to gain some credibility with its discource on VMSiL > is to say things so publicly by Capellas that his croonies such as WinklerA > will no longer be able to say the opposite whenever they speak.m >rJ > Marcello and below are nice people, but what they say has no credibilityG > because the folks above them either ignore VMS or say things that are  against VMS.  H Look, you can get more flies with honey than with vinegar. Maligning theK likes of Mike Winkler will get us nowhere. IMHO what we should lobby for isyK a VMS advertising program that lets enterprise customers know that VMS is a.K stable, secure, fault-resilient foundation for enterprise solutions. Such a G message could be crafted in such a way that it does not directly impugn G Windoze. Most savvy enterprise customers know that Windoze won't be thel) equal of VMS for quite some time to come.e  D Windoze will, however, play a role in the forthcoming QuickBlade andL Adaptive Infrastructure initiative, coming your way late this month. BelieveC it or not, some of the Compaq-developed enhancements to Windoze aret interesting indeed.s   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 14:29:17 GMT-& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demis:% Message-ID: <a14e7t$q8h@web.nmti.com>u  8 In article <jq9a3ugmve7o5c2dbdil0h7lackpq19790@4ax.com>,. israel r t  <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:7 > I am not sure that the single button is a real issue.e   I think it is.  H > My current mouse has 3 buttons and two wheels but I am not really sureD > that it really does a lot more that is useful than a sinble button > mouse.  I The switch from a one-button mouse to a two-button mouse, and the ability-G to use context-sensitive menus (as the original Xerox design used) is aoK huge improvement. The third button is less critical, and there are a numberrH of alternate meanings for it... most of which could really be moved intoJ additional options under the context menu: the only one that's really hardC to pull off without an extra key is the way Sun used it for "extend L select" the way Windows uses the shift-select and control-select operations.  K The X window system uses it for paste, but again that could easily be movedrN to a new option on a context menu. Windows doesn't seem to use it for anythingB consistently, but a kind of "grab" button for scrolling is common.  J Anyway, I'm willing to accept a third button. And when I'm using X WindowsL I do need it, since (as noted) it's used for paste. But two or three buttonsK is really the most you can productively use. Beyond three you're looking at  a gamer's toy.  M On the other hand, that second button is a major improvement. A single buttonbM does make initial familiarization and demonstration slightly easier, but over 7 the long term two (or three) buttons is really optimal.t   -- n+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.pE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."nL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:49:35 +0000u8 From: Christian Bau <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demis 4 Message-ID: <3C3588BE.EDA61BD6@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>   Anthony Ortenzi wrote: > G > "Christian Bau" <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in messages0 > news:3C3471E3.B56D1AB0@cbau.freeserve.co.uk...K > > I am really wondering if what you interpret as "unwillingness to learn"yK > > isn't what I interpret as "unwillingness to put up with crap", which isoD > > in my personal observation a strong tendency in Macintosh users. > > > They put up with a single-button mouse in a GUI long enough.7 > I think that they qualify as having put up with crap.r  G Well, that only shows your prejudice and that you don't know much about 0 human interfaces. And nothing about a Macintosh.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:48:07 -0500+ From: Keith R. Williams <krw@attglobal.net>eY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The      demise  : Message-ID: <MPG.169f8ef44efc4b179896d5@enews.newsguy.com>  F In article <3C34E239.BEA9B332@earthlink.net>, jchausler@earthlink.net  says...  >  >  > "Keith R. Williams" wrote: > I > > In article <3C3377CE.B3A60C5D@earthlink.net>, jchausler@earthlink.net* > > says...e > > >T > > >s > > > Charles Richmond wrote:e > > >mL > > > > I also have a Linux box, but it is *not* attached to the 'net. And IK > > > > am *very* interested in learning all sorts of new computer stuff. IiK > > > > am also interested in learning all sorts of *old* computer stuff...u; > > > > like about Bendix machines, LGP-30's, and others...  > > >:E > > > If you ever find out anything about Bendix G-20's, particularlyuA > > > about any other than the three which were at CIT/CMU in theD% > > > mid and late 60's, let me know.o > >iC > > There were two Bendix (one had a GE logo, IIRC) G-20s in the EEsH > > department at Illinois (UIUC) when I was there in the early 70's.  IK > > believe one was bought as scrap ($.10/lb). I have no idea what happenedn > > to them. > >  > 6 > I was unaware that GE ever got involved with G-20's.  D I think GE bought the Bendix computer division.  It's been too many 
 years though.o   > I also neverC > understood why Control Data acquired the Bendix computer divisionyA > as they seemed to be doing OK themselves and it does not appear = > that Bendix was (although the G-15 was somewhat popular).  f  E CDC was quite stuck on themselves, at least in the early 70s. So was aF UIUC (Plato), but that's another story. Again, IIRC, GE bought Bendix G in the 60s.  The G-20s we had were old when I was there and the second sF had GE clothes on it. As I indicated one was acquired as scrap in the  '70 time frame.-   > I lastF > saw the CMU ones in late 1976 in an old bank building in Pittsburgh.E > The .sig I use in this ng comes from the file control language fromi  > CMU's G-20's (written at CMU).  D I know the G-20s were still there a few years after I left in '74.  H They were running Fortran-II. Note that I never used the G-20s.  I used H the 360/75 in the CS department when I needed a digital computer or the G analog computers (tubes-servos-n-plugboards) in the EE department when i I wanted to play. ;-)a   ----   Keithi   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 13:55:40 GMTi& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cl% Message-ID: <a14c8s$o04@web.nmti.com>r  D In article <m1y9jfyb57.fsf@co3018576-a.rivrw1.nsw.optushome.com.au>,7 Malcolm Purvis  <malcolmpurvis@optushome.com.au> wrote:_P > Why not combine your interests and run Linux on a Mac?  Then you can be looked1 > upon strangely by both the Mac and Linux camps.L  J I can see the inherent coolness of using a non-intel CPU to run Linux, butJ apart from demonstrating that it can be done, unless you have simply pilesI of Macs to spare (and if so, send me one... I'm still using an SE/30!) itY0 doesn't seem like an effective use of resources.  J You can get faster, cheaper PCs that will be just as good at running LinuxK for less than any comparable Mac, and while the underlying OS on older MacssJ is pretty damn awful the GUI and applications are termendously compelling.   -- -+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva. E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."eL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 14:14:02 GMTt& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cn% Message-ID: <a14dba$p7q@web.nmti.com>o  1 In article <a11n5n$tak$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au>,n
 > amiga os > http://www.amiga.com/l  > http://www.amiga.com/products/$ > http://www.amiga.com/products/one/  M Other than the name, does this actually have any relationship to the originale Amiga real-time microkernel?  M It doesn't look like the guy who wrote the AmigaOne FAQ actually had any idear what AmigaOS was like:  : 	OS3.9 is the latest iteration of the classic AmigaOS. The? 	AmigaDE is the next generation software product for Amiga. Thei; 	classic runs on dedicated hardware and implements an 1980se 	centralised architecture.  O AmigaOS ("classic") is a real-time message-passing microkernel with an abstractoM service-based architecture. It was possible to use a stub to forward messagespN from one system to another, and there was at least one network being developedM that used that capability. I don't know whether it was actually completed, assG I only had the one system to work on so i didn't follow it too closely.o  K The high performance graphic operations did not use message-passing, due tovL the relatively slow hardware (even if it was impressively fast at the time),O but there were two separate high-performance MIDI workbenches that encapsulated K MIDI messages in Amiga messages and passed them through a chain of filters.dH The one a buddy of mine wrote was able to run a chain of several filtersJ without impacting lower priority tasks or using mor ethan a few percent of	 CPU time.E  L As a personal computer operating system, the Amiga design is still unmatchedL in any commercial consumer platform. The legal shenanigans that destroyed itL were a disaster for the computer industry. If the "new Amiga" has any of theL original Amiga's strengths, I've yet to see any indication. Rather, it seemsJ to be a direct competitor to hosted binary distribution schemes like Java.   -- e+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.dE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."vL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 16:50:57 GMT 1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)aY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cr, Message-ID: <a14mhh$1ehp$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  1 In article <4h3Z7.269$5Y4.5689@news.cpqcorp.net>, 8  "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: |> tL |> OpenBoot is Sun's gift to the world.  Written in FORTH.  So they spun offL |> the guy who wrote it into his own company, who convinced Apple to use it.K |> Cool idea.  Have the programming documentation.  Not much use unless yous$ |> have an Apple system, or a Sparc. |>    D I have often thought it might be nice in a PROM for my myriad PDP's.D Be nice to have a consistent user interface and set of boot devices.B My understanding is that FORTH interpreters are compact and a baseB PDP-11 FORTH implementation already exists that is small enough to( fit the whole thing on an RX01 Floppy.    2 One of these days when I have nothing to do... :-)   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:42:48 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of c 1 Message-ID: <kUlZ7.296$5Y4.6411@news.cpqcorp.net>   G Toon Moene wrote in message <3C34D26D.D90A358A@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>...0 >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  >wJ >> Toon Moene wrote in message <3C34B7AE.97A1C19D@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>... > J >> >1. A vector machine without any graphics (somehow Apple managed to putI >> >   a graphics card in the latest Titanics that isn't supported by the H >> >   Linux kernel and/or XFree86 4.1.0 - never change a winning team). >rB >> The myth about XFree86 is that drivers and DDX's are plentiful. > A >Perhaps you didn't understand this comment.  Of course I checked ? >beforehand that one could run XFree86 on a Titanium Powerbook.a >tB >However, Apple managed to change the graphics card *in between my% >checking this and buying the stuff*.o > C >Doesn't seem like a clever way to win (repeat) customers to me ...- >o    B But this is the PC model - graphics cards, like any other card, isK interchangeable based on what the cheapest (or fastest) thing is today.  So L substitution happens all the time.  The card vendor supplies the drivers forK Windows (and sometimes the Mac).  Every once and a while, they also provide- a Linux binary.,   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:43:51 +0000 (UTC)/ From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>gY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of c 3 Message-ID: <1010166229.414391@haldjas.folklore.ee>   4 In comp.arch Peter da Silva <peter@abbnm.com> wrote:F > In article <m1y9jfyb57.fsf@co3018576-a.rivrw1.nsw.optushome.com.au>,9 > Malcolm Purvis  <malcolmpurvis@optushome.com.au> wrote:dQ >> Why not combine your interests and run Linux on a Mac?  Then you can be looked 2 >> upon strangely by both the Mac and Linux camps.  L > I can see the inherent coolness of using a non-intel CPU to run Linux, butL > apart from demonstrating that it can be done, unless you have simply pilesK > of Macs to spare (and if so, send me one... I'm still using an SE/30!) it 2 > doesn't seem like an effective use of resources.  8 Yeah, exactly - you should use briQ to run linux/ppc 8-)  L > You can get faster, cheaper PCs that will be just as good at running LinuxM > for less than any comparable Mac, and while the underlying OS on older MacssL > is pretty damn awful the GUI and applications are termendously compelling.  F Unless you don't want to use PC. Also, MacOSX has horrible support for& C++ so that might be another reason...     > -- t- >  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.dG >   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."bN >                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org >          Disclaimer: WWFD?   --   	Sander    +++ Out of cheese error +++r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:46:08 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>uY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of ch1 Message-ID: <sXlZ7.298$5Y4.6439@news.cpqcorp.net>-  L I was once part of a team looking at how to collapse the Alpha "SRM" consoleE and "AlphaBIOS" console into a single common console.  As part of oureI research, we had the guys who were selling OpenBoot come in and give us af4 presentation, and also purchased some documentation.   Never tried to actually use it.o    + rivie@cougar.no.domain wrote in message ... I >In article <4h3Z7.269$5Y4.5689@news.cpqcorp.net>, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:cL >> OpenBoot is Sun's gift to the world.  Written in FORTH.  So they spun offL >> the guy who wrote it into his own company, who convinced Apple to use it.K >> Cool idea.  Have the programming documentation.  Not much use unless yout$ >> have an Apple system, or a Sparc. >i= >If you've found useful programming documentation for Apple'so+ >Open Firmware, you're a better man that I.a >--T >Roger Ivie" >ivie@cc.usu.edu >t > ? >-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----oB >http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!? >-----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----a   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 14:16:10 GMTf& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co % Message-ID: <a14dfa$pdm@web.nmti.com>t  7 In article <name99-0301021727550001@handma2.apple.com>,m' Maynard Handley <name99@mac.com> wrote:mJ > the same way, not to frighten them into thinking that the new TiBook 120J > is somehow different from the old TiBook 100 that they had their eye on,H > and so they need to figure out and understand the differences. I think' > these are both legitimate arguments.)C  E But the new unit *is* different, and they *do* need to figure out andh understand the differences.t   --  +  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva. E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."wL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:25:08 +0100o, From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of cog4 Message-ID: <3C35D764.81A68997@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>   Peter da Silva wrote:e  F > In article <m1y9jfyb57.fsf@co3018576-a.rivrw1.nsw.optushome.com.au>,9 > Malcolm Purvis  <malcolmpurvis@optushome.com.au> wrote:z  R > > Why not combine your interests and run Linux on a Mac?  Then you can be looked3 > > upon strangely by both the Mac and Linux camps.a > L > I can see the inherent coolness of using a non-intel CPU to run Linux, butL > apart from demonstrating that it can be done, unless you have simply pilesK > of Macs to spare (and if so, send me one... I'm still using an SE/30!) it-2 > doesn't seem like an effective use of resources.  6 Well, depends on why you want to run Linux on them ...  B My motivation is that a PowerPC based system is a relatively cheapG big-endian machine.  This helps me tracking lots of endianness problemsl! that appear while developing g77.i  ; The reason I use Debian GNU/Linux is because being a SystemlH Administrator is not a favourite hobby of mine - hence the pressing need. to keep all OS's the same around the house ...   -- iG Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290 6 Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG  Maartensdijk, The NetherlandsG Maintainer, GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.html E Join GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction),   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:36:17 GMTo) From: jchausler <jchausler@earthlink.net>sY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coi- Message-ID: <3C35F343.98D06822@earthlink.net>   	 Hi Keith,s   "Keith R. Williams" wrote:  E > I think GE bought the Bendix computer division.  It's been too manyt > years though.b  E Not to my knowledge, I was under the impression that it was bought byiB Control Data, not GE.  The two primary G-20's at CMU were labelledE "Control Data" (IIRC the "engineering prototype" was labelled Bendix)n? and someone else in this ng told me he had seen G-15's labelledr@ Control Data as well even though I had thought G-15's being tubeC machines would have been obsolete by the early 60's.  Some of thoseeC one-inch wide tape spools I have are labelled Control Data and someo' labelled Bendix, all are labelled G-20.   F > CDC was quite stuck on themselves, at least in the early 70s. So wasG > UIUC (Plato), but that's another story. Again, IIRC, GE bought BendixlH > in the 60s.  The G-20s we had were old when I was there and the secondG > had GE clothes on it. As I indicated one was acquired as scrap in thee > '70 time frame.s  B CDC did have an attitude ;-)  Bendix, of course, had more than oneI division and it is possible that GE got some of it.  I don't really know.uJ Another possibility is that GE resold G-20's for some specific applicationE and re-clothed the G-20's as GE.  I used to do this with Data General>D equipment in a previous life:-)  My big question is how big a marketD penetration did they have as you are the only other person I've ever@ heard from who has seen other than the CMU ones.  One of the IBMD history books states that the 7040 series was a response to the G-20= (and some other machines) as a mid range performance computeriD below the cost and performance of their 7090 series.  Was the threat real?t  D > I know the G-20s were still there a few years after I left in '74.I > They were running Fortran-II. Note that I never used the G-20s.  I used I > the 360/75 in the CS department when I needed a digital computer or the-H > analog computers (tubes-servos-n-plugboards) in the EE department when > I wanted to play. ;-)l  M I recall looking at their Fortran-II.  The first language I learned, however,RC was Algol-20, a variant of Algol-60 written at CMU and probably theeG main language on campus in the mid to late 60's.  Since the school alsotH had a 7040 and it had Fortran IV on it I learned it instead.  The G-20'sF never had a Fortran-IV to my knowledge.  Just about the time I arrivedF on campus (fall 66) they got a 360/65 but I did not pay much attentionF to it.  The 7040 did not last long and was replaced with a Univac 1108F in summer 67.  Since this machine had a good Algol compiler on it, theI rest of the G-20 users were more or less directed to convert to the 1108.fI I believe the G-20's were sold to that individual I mentioned in 69.  The B sad thing about the G-20's is that they had a wonderful RJE systemG using dial in teletypes (33's and 35's) and also a stroke writing multi C screen "scopes" system.  The space ware written on the scopes makes D the famous MIT game look poor in comparison.  All this was lost withE the conversion to the 1108 although there was an effort to provide angA RJE using a PDP-8 as a front end which never worked well IIRC and  did not last long.  A The EE department at that time had a home built "hybred" computer > made of an EIA 680 and a PDP-9.  I still have a DECtape I usedA on that PDP-9.  I only briefly played with the analog 680, it was B solid state.  They also had the tube based G-15 but it didn't last? long after I arrived.  I did write some Algo programs on it andw5 still have a picture of me sitting at its console ;-)a   Chrisn AN GETTO$;DUMP;RUN,ALGOL,TAPE( $$   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 07:24:57 -0500T- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h% Subject: Re: TCPIP: SHOW HOST problemi, Message-ID: <3C359F0A.DAC3642C@videotron.ca>   JF Mezei wrote:  > TCPIP> SHOW HOST* > %TCPIP-W-NORECORD, information not foundB > -TCPIP-E-BIND)READERR, error reading/interpreting query response    N I found out what the problem was. The domain config files ( domain_name.db andB the n_n_n_IN-ADDR_ARPA.DB files) did not have a NS record in them.  L Those files had been generated by the TCPIP> CONVERT/UNIX BIND command. (notE sure if at the time they were generated my bind server was improperlysO configured or whether it is the convert/unix command which doesn't do the job).t  H One question though: the CONVERT/UNIX generates the SOA information withK expiry of 2 days. The BIND server log contains a warning that this value iseJ less than 7 days. (I have about 5-6 hosts defined in those files, should I just set the value to 7 days ?)f  L Since this is the authoritative server for those hosts, does this value haveL meaning ? Is it a case of telling others hosts how long they can cache those	 entries ?h   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 02:15:15 -0500( From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net>9 Subject: Re: Terraserver ( was Re: The demise of compaq )g3 Message-ID: <SCcZ7.723$Pe5.153974@news1.iquest.net>f  9 "israel r t" <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote in messageS2 news:uk9a3u0t14margeqmvefmcf7op032gfgkq@4ax.com...E > On 3 Jan 2002 19:54:35 GMT, peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:t >nM > >Microsoft was using this as a technology demo. They had two Alpha based NTdO > >servers sitting in front of a farm of (IIRC) 40 Proliants running SQL ServernM > >to deliver the maps. The big deal was they could serve a terabyte a day ofd > >data out of a databasee >aJ > >Meanwhile Walnut Creek CDROM was serving 1.5 terabytes a day out of oneK > >dual-Pentium-something box with a gigabit ethernet card running FreeBSD.- > F > Yeah, I remember logging onto the Walnut Creek site and finding over: > 250 others logged in AND getting decent download speeds. > N I could get almost full T1 performance across the internet, with a couple 1000G other downloaders.   Of course, most of them only had modem speeds.  (IaD wrote part of FreeBSD, the OS used by WC CDROM, but I wasn't getting9 any kind of special performance benefit because of that.)y  J The UNIX style kernels can perform very, very well.   The odd fact is thatJ the UNIX kernel structure is far, far from optimal, and it still does alotE better than what people often expect from OSes made by Microsoft :-).T   John   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 09:32:46 GMTn  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>9 Subject: Re: Terraserver ( was Re: The demise of compaq )s+ Message-ID: <3C357714.7277A6C6@prodigy.net>n   "John S. Dyson" wrote: >  <snip> > L > The UNIX style kernels can perform very, very well.   The odd fact is thatL > the UNIX kernel structure is far, far from optimal, and it still does alotG > better than what people often expect from OSes made by Microsoft :-).d >  > John   It is rather amazing.t   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 14:44:16 GMT & From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)9 Subject: Re: Terraserver ( was Re: The demise of compaq )t% Message-ID: <a14f40$rbn@web.nmti.com>r  3 In article <SCcZ7.723$Pe5.153974@news1.iquest.net>, ' John S. Dyson <dyson@iquest.net> wrote:sL > The UNIX style kernels can perform very, very well.   The odd fact is thatL > the UNIX kernel structure is far, far from optimal, and it still does alotG > better than what people often expect from OSes made by Microsoft :-).a  I The big advantage to the monolithic kernel model for single-threaded appspK is that you completely sidestep the whole single-server bottleneck that youpK have to spend so much effort on avoiding with a microkernel model: that was I why Linux so completely trounced Minix in performance, for example... the C file system task (among others) in Minix ended up as a choke point.   L The advantages to a microkernel come into play at the very high and very lowJ end. On the one hand it makes it a lot easier to get real-time performanceG out of a game machine like the Amiga, and at the very high end once you-N have beaten the single-server bottleneck you get good multi-CPU and asymmetric% multiprocessing performance for free.Y   Both approaches are viable.c  H Whether it's easier to multithread a monolithic kernel or to multithreadI dozens of servers in a microkernel is something history will have to telle us.g   -- i+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.eE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:54:26 -0500o- From: "John Eisenschmidt" <jeisensc@aaas.org>h5 Subject: Terraserver ( was Re: The demise of compaq )v+ Message-ID: <sc3589fb.016@AAASMTA.aaas.org>   I Not to defend the Beast of Redmond, but there is a HUGE difference there.   L cdrom.com is serving files out of their local file system - of course they =L are only limited by bandwidth and memory (in that order). I would bet that =1 box doesn't even have a significant load average.e  F Microsoft is serving data out of a database, which has significantly =L higher overhead. I'm sure you could replace Terra Server with significantly=L  fewer Unix or VMS boxen running Oracle, but no one has really stepped up. =I Larry doesn't promote how powerful his baby is with real world examples =r
 often enough.@  E >>> israel r t <israelrt@optushome.com.au> 01/03/2002 10:51:16 PM >>>vC On 3 Jan 2002 19:54:35 GMT, peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:@  J >Microsoft was using this as a technology demo. They had two Alpha based = NTH >servers sitting in front of a farm of (IIRC) 40 Proliants running SQL = ServerJ >to deliver the maps. The big deal was they could serve a terabyte a day = of >data out of a database=20  H >Meanwhile Walnut Creek CDROM was serving 1.5 terabytes a day out of oneI >dual-Pentium-something box with a gigabit ethernet card running FreeBSD.   D Yeah, I remember logging onto the Walnut Creek site and finding over8 250 others logged in AND getting decent download speeds.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 14:38:07 GMTi& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)! Subject: Re: The demise of compaq % Message-ID: <a14eof$qvb@web.nmti.com>n  8 In article <lh9a3uktbr160km3i7qad95ddgpt0vqkoa@4ax.com>,. israel r t  <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:E > On 3 Jan 2002 19:54:35 GMT, peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:lM > >Microsoft was using this as a technology demo. They had two Alpha based NTpO > >servers sitting in front of a farm of (IIRC) 40 Proliants running SQL ServermM > >to deliver the maps. The big deal was they could serve a terabyte a day of- > >data out of a database   J > >Meanwhile Walnut Creek CDROM was serving 1.5 terabytes a day out of oneK > >dual-Pentium-something box with a gigabit ethernet card running FreeBSD.r  F > Yeah, I remember logging onto the Walnut Creek site and finding over: > 250 others logged in AND getting decent download speeds.  E By the time of this demo, you could get that kind of performance witho+ thousands of users logged into this one PC.s  J That was their downfall. Walnut Creek's FTP server was supposed to promoteL Walnut Creek's CDROM sales. But dozens of sites set themselves up as indexesH into the Archive without giving Walnut Creed credit. What WC should haveJ done was migrate it to an HTTP-only server, with referrer-blocking so theyK didn't get the slimeball bandwidth pirates, and their own banners and other/ advertising.  L In the long term, hiring Jordan Hubbard and supporting FreeBSD seems to have! been the smartest thing they did.    --  +  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva. E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."eL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 13:33:36 GMTf& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs% Message-ID: <a14avg$mjp@web.nmti.com>h  8 In article <8r293u0d7v01sp3ta82oi6hs5uoe01gldc@4ax.com>," jlsue  <jlsuexxxz@home.com> wrote:C > Geeze JF, no, I don't think we're mind readers, but the issue was F > whether there is a down-turn in VMS sales.  Also was a discussion on0 > whether there were all that many sales at all. [...]eD > The point is that, contrary to other comments here, there are some/ > serious $$$ being spent on VMS systems still.o  C Hey, the Dow's way up there! It's over 10,000! That's a big number!p   In other words:n  H To refute the claim that there has been a downturn, you can't just quoteK current figures. You have to compare month-to-month and year-to-year sales.s   -- O+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva. E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."tL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:43:00 GMTi4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>8 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: Compaq Readying Tru64 Layoffs, Message-ID: <84kZ7.2793$Sf2.12030@rwcrnsc52>  3 "Peter da Silva" <peter@abbnm.com> wrote in message  news:a14avg$mjp@web.nmti.com...u: > In article <8r293u0d7v01sp3ta82oi6hs5uoe01gldc@4ax.com>,$ > jlsue  <jlsuexxxz@home.com> wrote:E > > Geeze JF, no, I don't think we're mind readers, but the issue wasnH > > whether there is a down-turn in VMS sales.  Also was a discussion on2 > > whether there were all that many sales at all. > [...] F > > The point is that, contrary to other comments here, there are some1 > > serious $$$ being spent on VMS systems still.r > E > Hey, the Dow's way up there! It's over 10,000! That's a big number!( >s > In other words:c > J > To refute the claim that there has been a downturn, you can't just quoteF > current figures. You have to compare month-to-month and year-to-year sales.  I Of course there has been a downturn in VMS sales. About ~5 percent in 2FQfK and I daresay a higher single-digit number in 3FQ (given events of June 25,dL September 4, and the September 11 cowardly sneak attack by Taliban vermin on the United States of America).  : Hint: VMS is gonna fare much better than will the Taliban!   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:05:29 +0000S% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>h. Subject: Re: TSM Installation Problem on Alpha' Message-ID: <3C35EEE9.A65AAF68@iee.org>    Rob Buxton wrote:i > + > Additional info after a bit more testing.-  2 Makes a nice change to see someone doing that :-)   % > The error is happening at the line:n > 9 >  MESSAGE/OBJECT=VMI$KWD:TSM$MSG.OBJ VMI$KWD:TSM$MSG.MSGv > < > Unpacked the Save Set to a test directory. The results.... > $ > ELVIS  set watch/class=major file > ELVIS  sh def% >   DSA1100:[CSC.SYSTEM.BUXTON2R.TSM]w0 > ELVIS  message/object=tsm$msg.obj tsm$msg.msgB > %XQP, Thread #0, Access MESSAGE.EXE;1 (810,1,0) Status: 000000017 > %XQP, Thread #0, Lookup  (759,461,0) Status: 00000001 7 > %XQP, Thread #0, Lookup  (759,461,0) Status: 00000001 D > %XQP, Thread #0, Access TSM$MSG.MSG;1 (759,461,0) Status: 00000001A > %XQP, Thread #0, Control function  (759,461,0) Status: 00000001 7 > %SYSTEM-F-OPCDEC, opcode reserved to Digital fault at." > PC=0000000000031B08, PS=0000001B >   1 Start with VMI$KWD:TSM$MSG.MSG and binary-chop it " until you find the offending line.  / If that fails and you need random (and probablye& incorrect guesses) try ODS-2 vs ODS-5?   Antonio    -- e   ---------------s- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orge   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:12:03 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>n  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig1 Message-ID: <fzkZ7.291$5Y4.6375@news.cpqcorp.net>e  I Come on.  VMS is approved for anything job it is suitable for.  Something ) with high reliability needs for instance.   L Next time you are at DisneyWorld, take the Magic Kingdom backstage tour.  IfL you are lucky enough (as I was last year) to be in the tunnels when a paradeI is about to start, you might be able to see the parade control room - ande# the VS4000 that runs the parade ;-):      I John McLean wrote in message <3C35456A.D005BFC6@swissonline.delete.ch>...i >e >g >JF Mezei wrote: >>I >> > > http://www.cnn.com/1999/TECH/computing/12/20/bigdig.idg/index.html  >>G >> Montreal has had an underground highway with exits in them for a fewb decadesoI >> already. (Ville Marie expressway). Beware of fancy signs, they tend toa >> distract drivers. >>E >> And as far as the mention of VMS, it is most interesting that theyr	 mentionedsJ >> workstations, the very market that Compaq's isn't interested in pushing VMS for. >t > @ >I do love it when customers use VMS in "non-approved" ways. :-) >uC >It shows that the customers are thinking when maybe Compaq is not.d >a >s	 >John McLe   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:24:14 GMT-4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig- Message-ID: <OGkZ7.6235$B85.249342@rwcrnsc53>G  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:fzkZ7.291$5Y4.6375@news.cpqcorp.net...tK > Come on.  VMS is approved for anything job it is suitable for.  Something + > with high reliability needs for instance.h >mJ > Next time you are at DisneyWorld, take the Magic Kingdom backstage tour. IfG > you are lucky enough (as I was last year) to be in the tunnels when aa paradeK > is about to start, you might be able to see the parade control room - andq% > the VS4000 that runs the parade ;-)u  I And wait until you see the ZLE solution that Compaq is cooking up for thee+ Magic Kingdom. Downright impressive, it is!t  E PS-- Big Dig has a very bad connotation in the Boston Area. It is the0F world's largest, most costly, and most delayed public works project inK history. Original cost estimate $2B. Now north of $15B. And still no end ine sight.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:58:42 GMTe4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig0 Message-ID: <3C35DE58.4BD13EA1@blueyonder.co.uk>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:- > B > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- > news:fzkZ7.291$5Y4.6375@news.cpqcorp.net...gM > > Come on.  VMS is approved for anything job it is suitable for.  Something - > > with high reliability needs for instance.  > > L > > Next time you are at DisneyWorld, take the Magic Kingdom backstage tour. > IfI > > you are lucky enough (as I was last year) to be in the tunnels when a  > paradeM > > is about to start, you might be able to see the parade control room - anda' > > the VS4000 that runs the parade ;-)  > K > And wait until you see the ZLE solution that Compaq is cooking up for the - > Magic Kingdom. Downright impressive, it is!e > G > PS-- Big Dig has a very bad connotation in the Boston Area. It is the H > world's largest, most costly, and most delayed public works project inM > history. Original cost estimate $2B. Now north of $15B. And still no end inm > sight.  I however, it sounds like if they are running on a coupe of DS series boxespE rather than a couple of Cray's then they are saving on the IT budget.T  $ Or did they buy those Cray's anyway?   regardsi   --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  h  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of h! my employers or service provider.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:54:57 GMTc0 From: "P. Thompson" <thompson-nospam@new.rr.com>  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big DigJ Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0201041053090.19736-100000@malacandra.localnet>  % Did anyone read the related articles?'# http://www.idg.net/go.cgi?id=201787w  C "In addition, the Unix-based open VMSDigital system will allow the aG operators to monitor and control all of the CA/T facilities, including -  lights and power distribution. "   --  6 Lord, protect me from those to whom you speak directly* Leave the nospam in, correct email address   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:00:50 GMTo4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig0 Message-ID: <3C35DF01.50A09F39@blueyonder.co.uk>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:l > B > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- > news:fzkZ7.291$5Y4.6375@news.cpqcorp.net....M > > Come on.  VMS is approved for anything job it is suitable for.  Somethingt- > > with high reliability needs for instance.n > >vL > > Next time you are at DisneyWorld, take the Magic Kingdom backstage tour. > IfI > > you are lucky enough (as I was last year) to be in the tunnels when a  > paradeM > > is about to start, you might be able to see the parade control room - ande' > > the VS4000 that runs the parade ;-)  > K > And wait until you see the ZLE solution that Compaq is cooking up for the - > Magic Kingdom. Downright impressive, it is!s > G > PS-- Big Dig has a very bad connotation in the Boston Area. It is thenH > world's largest, most costly, and most delayed public works project inM > history. Original cost estimate $2B. Now north of $15B. And still no end inu > sight.  G So, why can't Compaq use this as advertising material? Surely Disney is14 not worried if people know what OS they are running?   regardsa   -- e Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  e  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of n! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:05:00 GMTd4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig0 Message-ID: <3C35DFF9.FA250800@blueyonder.co.uk>   "P. Thompson" wrote: > ' > Did anyone read the related articles?w% > http://www.idg.net/go.cgi?id=201787  > D > "In addition, the Unix-based open VMSDigital system will allow theH > operators to monitor and control all of the CA/T facilities, including" > lights and power distribution. "  & well, we all know VMS is unix really.    :-).   --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  r  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of O! my employers or service provider.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:05:12 GMTn4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig, Message-ID: <chlZ7.2967$Sf2.13356@rwcrnsc52>  A "Tim Llewellyn" <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in messagen* news:3C35DF01.50A09F39@blueyonder.co.uk... >f >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:o > >:D > > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message/ > > news:fzkZ7.291$5Y4.6375@news.cpqcorp.net...>D > > > Come on.  VMS is approved for anything job it is suitable for.	 Something1/ > > > with high reliability needs for instance.: > > >sH > > > Next time you are at DisneyWorld, take the Magic Kingdom backstage tour.  > > IfK > > > you are lucky enough (as I was last year) to be in the tunnels when a 
 > > paradeK > > > is about to start, you might be able to see the parade control room -i andh) > > > the VS4000 that runs the parade ;-)- > > I > > And wait until you see the ZLE solution that Compaq is cooking up forj theR/ > > Magic Kingdom. Downright impressive, it is!  > >gI > > PS-- Big Dig has a very bad connotation in the Boston Area. It is theiJ > > world's largest, most costly, and most delayed public works project inL > > history. Original cost estimate $2B. Now north of $15B. And still no end in
 > > sight. > I > So, why can't Compaq use this as advertising material? Surely Disney ist6 > not worried if people know what OS they are running?  L It's not quite a done deal (eg fully implemented) yet. When it is, I am sureK that the Big Mouse will Roar. Being a ZLE installation, the primary OS most H likely is NSK. Not sure of the entire infrastructure, will keep looking.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:10:35 GMTk4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig. Message-ID: <3C35DD49.EE2117@blueyonder.co.uk>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:t > B > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- > news:fzkZ7.291$5Y4.6375@news.cpqcorp.net...aM > > Come on.  VMS is approved for anything job it is suitable for.  Somethingu- > > with high reliability needs for instance.p > >eL > > Next time you are at DisneyWorld, take the Magic Kingdom backstage tour. > IfI > > you are lucky enough (as I was last year) to be in the tunnels when ao > paradeM > > is about to start, you might be able to see the parade control room - andd' > > the VS4000 that runs the parade ;-)h > K > And wait until you see the ZLE solution that Compaq is cooking up for theo- > Magic Kingdom. Downright impressive, it is!- > G > PS-- Big Dig has a very bad connotation in the Boston Area. It is thesH > world's largest, most costly, and most delayed public works project inM > history. Original cost estimate $2B. Now north of $15B. And still no end ine > sight.  I however, it sounds like if they are running on a coupe of DS series boxestE rather than a couple of Cray's then they are saving on the IT budget.d  $ Or did they buy those Cray's anyway?   regards=   -- o Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  d  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of g! my employers or service provider.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:32:18 +0100b1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>u  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig5 Message-ID: <3C35E722.B7A8686E@swissonline.delete.ch>n   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > K > Come on.  VMS is approved for anything job it is suitable for.  SomethingT+ > with high reliability needs for instance.   H Oh really ?  You mean Compaq doesn't mind if it is not in a niche market ?   ? So are niche markets just a simplification for the sales folk ?S    N > Next time you are at DisneyWorld, take the Magic Kingdom backstage tour.  IfN > you are lucky enough (as I was last year) to be in the tunnels when a paradeK > is about to start, you might be able to see the parade control room - ande% > the VS4000 that runs the parade ;-)   F Sorry but isn't "VS" a Vaxstation ?  Haven't they upgraded yet ?  WhatA will Compaq sales people try to push at them ?  Something running- windows perhaps ???   B Fred, I know that the sales methodology is not you fault.  It justC constantly annoys me that Compaq try to push VMS into very specificnF areas when things like this show that it can have a place right across/ the  IT field, ... including the Magic Kingdom.2     John McLean    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:42:02 +0100t1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>r  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig5 Message-ID: <3C35E96A.39D164B6@swissonline.delete.ch>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:e >  >...G > PS-- Big Dig has a very bad connotation in the Boston Area. It is theuH > world's largest, most costly, and most delayed public works project inM > history. Original cost estimate $2B. Now north of $15B. And still no end inb > sight.  - What ?  No light at the end of the tunnel ???5     John   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:59:53 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig/ Message-ID: <3C35ECD9.7FF83E5@blueyonder.co.uk>    John McLean wrote: >  > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > >sM > > Come on.  VMS is approved for anything job it is suitable for.  Somethingv- > > with high reliability needs for instance.o > J > Oh really ?  You mean Compaq doesn't mind if it is not in a niche market > ?t > A > So are niche markets just a simplification for the sales folk ?t  G John, you may have hit on something there, the sales folk are not up toeO real world situations and live in a fantasy world of gross over-simplification.k Its a theory anyway.  ! sorry, feeling a bit cruel today.      -- e Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.-   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:15:21 GMTo4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig, Message-ID: <ZimZ7.3059$Sf2.14539@rwcrnsc52>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C35E96A.39D164B6@swissonline.delete.ch...  >d >a > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:h > >  > >...I > > PS-- Big Dig has a very bad connotation in the Boston Area. It is theaJ > > world's largest, most costly, and most delayed public works project inL > > history. Original cost estimate $2B. Now north of $15B. And still no end in
 > > sight. >w/ > What ?  No light at the end of the tunnel ???r  J The only light I've seen is an imminent tax, er, toll fee, increase on theA Massachusetts Turnpike. This goat-rope is the apotheosis of pork,-J featherbedding, price-gouging, etc. But it ensures lots of union votes for0 the incumbent criminals in the Mass Legislature.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:30:03 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>:  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig1 Message-ID: <DAmZ7.303$5Y4.6465@news.cpqcorp.net>m  I John McLean wrote in message <3C35E722.B7A8686E@swissonline.delete.ch>...C >a >e >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:s >>L >> Come on.  VMS is approved for anything job it is suitable for.  Something, >> with high reliability needs for instance. > I >Oh really ?  You mean Compaq doesn't mind if it is not in a niche marketx >? >e@ >So are niche markets just a simplification for the sales folk ? >     H The vertical segments are the places where we focus our attention.  ThatL doesn't mean everything falls within a vertical segment.  It just happens toL be where our strengths and growth opportunities are - it makes sense to make sure that they are serviced.  L In the real world, sales people sell what they know or are comfortable with.I Sometimes, a good one will sell the right thing for the application - ande its not always VMS.'   >tK >> Next time you are at DisneyWorld, take the Magic Kingdom backstage tour.r IfH >> you are lucky enough (as I was last year) to be in the tunnels when a paradeL >> is about to start, you might be able to see the parade control room - and& >> the VS4000 that runs the parade ;-) >yG >Sorry but isn't "VS" a Vaxstation ?  Haven't they upgraded yet ?  WhattB >will Compaq sales people try to push at them ?  Something running >windows perhaps ??? >a  L Actually, I was on vacation when I saw this.  I talked to the guy running itH who said something to the effect that it was something they wrote a longJ time ago, it never breaks, and so they have never felt the need to replace& it.  Lots of new stuff was on Windows.  C >Fred, I know that the sales methodology is not you fault.  It just D >constantly annoys me that Compaq try to push VMS into very specificG >areas when things like this show that it can have a place right acrossa0 >the  IT field, ... including the Magic Kingdom. >C  H Pushing specific areas is not the same as excluding it from other areas.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 13:48:39 GMT & From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceed#% Message-ID: <a14brn$njn@web.nmti.com>t  , In article <3C350971.2D677420@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:D > Peter da Silva wrote:gI > > Doesn't this argument come down to "Why would someone want to use VMSDI > > rather than Windows"? After all, Windows is effectively free with anyt' > > new PC, even for businesses. Right?l  M > Don't PC makers now have to make available window-less machines the reflectsO > the lack of windows on their price tag ? I would expect this to have been one-@ > of the clauses in the mild punishement inflicted on Microsoft.  J Some do, some don't, but the price difference is negligable: unless you'reG buying them in quantity the overhead of getting a signed purchase ordern through can exceed the savings.o  I Not to mention the legal hassles: Micrsoft is still pushing the idea thatDH people buying "naked PCs" are going to pirate copies of Windows, and anyK staff in the purchase process who have bought into that story will add more, roadblocks (and cost).  H We just buy the boxes with Windows then don't bother installing Windows,K though sometimes we have to. Compaq, for example often uses a Windows based G BIOS configuration tool that it sticks in a separate partition and getsnA launched when you use the magic key combo to tweak BIOS settings.u   -- w+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.>E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."aL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 13:50:16 GMTe& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceeda% Message-ID: <a14buo$nlv@web.nmti.com>   ' In article <3C351F24.E5D007A2@fsi.net>,-0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > Peter da Silva wrote:<< > > In article <mjg33u8c41j6c298t06igs3euuso55ngh4@4ax.com>,2 > > israel r t  <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:K > > > The point that I was making is that when free ( effectively ) Windows1J > > > is essentially available to the average hobbyist for the asking ( orK > > > for the downloading I suppose ) , why would anyone pay real money forh > > > VMS for hobbyist use ?  I > > Doesn't this argument come down to "Why would someone want to use VMSh > > rather than Windows"?   / > Can you say, "virus"? Can you say, "B-S-O-D"?,  # Can you say, "rhetorical question"?n   -- o+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.-E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 13:55:38 GMTy1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)eY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds)-, Message-ID: <a14c8q$1a0r$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  % In article <a130fc$24s@web.nmti.com>,e)  peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes: . |> In article <a0v555INNsn0@subds.rzg.mpg.de>,* |> Bruce Scott TOK <bds@rzg.mpg.de> wrote:K |> > Convince me that the free BSD movements pre-date GNU and I might alter5 |> > my stance.o |> tN |> Brian Kernighan, P. J. Plauger, _Software Tools_, Addison Wesley, 1976. TheO |> source code to Ratfor and all the other tools in the book was distributed on L |> magnetic tape, and could be freely redistributed. The Software Tools User: |> Group at Berkeley was formed as a result of this book,   D Forgot that one in my response, which is funny being as I am working( with that particular package right now!!  J |>                                                        and the Berkeley; |> based "Free Software" movement dates back to this event.i |> e@ |> > But it is clear RMS's stance came out of that MIT milieu of |> > the late 60s/early 70s, |> sO |> Actually, *that* stance goes back millenia. You can't credit RMS as the onlymQ |> anointed son of the traditional university environment. It's clear that thingskR |> were not so different in Berkeley in the '60s and '70s... nor at the UniversityK |> of New South Wales, nor (I imagine) were they that much different at anya |> other university. |> .P |> Outside the University, but nearby, the People's Computer Company was foundedM |> in 1972. In 1976 they started publishing Doctor Dobbs' Jounral of Computer-! |> Calisthenics and Orthodontia. 1  D It should also be noted this was a well established and very popularD magazine (I still get it!) when RMS chose it as the platform for hisC ridiculous tirade.  And all of this because he didn't know what thes" term "public domain" really meant.  J |>                                Within a few years several microcomputerK |> versions of "real" operating systems and languages were published... andhL |> this included the first generally available compiler for a subset of "C".  E And let's not forget others like BYTE which introduced the first free-D subset Pascal compiler and system as well as numerous other sotfware systems.  D And then there was Kilobaud, Creative Computing, etc.  The list goesB on and on.  More software was given away then was ever sold in the the early pre-Gnu days.s  I What would the world be like if RMS had never written the Gnu Manifesto??7I Most likely, just like today except we wouldn't have the GPL to curse ands kick around.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------    Date: 04 Jan 2002 09:37:01 -0500< From: westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin)H Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )0 Message-ID: <uzo3ukws2.fsf@graphics.cornell.edu>  + Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:   D > If I'm following this thread correctly, the problems with VMS are:@ >   1. Compaq owns it and apparently doesn't want to release it.H >   2. Most of it (AFAIK) is written in a proprietary language BLISS-32.F >      Unless you want to rewrite all of VMS, you'd have to port BLISS: >      which (again AFAIK) is not intended to be portable.  E Worse. Almost all of VMS was written in VAX assembly code. To port tosF Alpha, DEC wrote a *compiler* to generate Alpha code from VAX assemblyC code. I'm sure some modules were recoded for the Alpha. But anyway,m@ another compiler would need to be written to take VMS to another  hardware platform. For starters.  > I think some utilities (perhaps including RMS) were written in@ BLISS-32, which was developed in the pious hope that it would beB portable. I don't know how successful that was; the language might< have been a bit too close to the hardware. But this code has< presumably been ported to Alpha, which means it is portable.  D So we need two compilers to start the process (after Compaq releases; source, which will probably never happen): VAX assembly andn: BLISS. Since these were written after the advent of modernF compiler-writing tools (unlike, say, the Multics PL/I compiler), there> is a chance that it wouldn't be too painful to change the code generators.g   <snip>   -- l -Stephen H. WestinA Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do notiD represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors.   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 09:06:13 -0600z- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)1H Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )3 Message-ID: <1pofMHNoHe3h@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  U In article <3C34EDD6.56ADF4B8@yahoo.com>, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:tD > If I'm following this thread correctly, the problems with VMS are:@ >   1. Compaq owns it and apparently doesn't want to release it.H >   2. Most of it (AFAIK) is written in a proprietary language BLISS-32.F >      Unless you want to rewrite all of VMS, you'd have to port BLISS: >      which (again AFAIK) is not intended to be portable.  G    Boy are you lost.  You may or may not like BLISS, you may or you mayg?    not like it's portability features, but they sure are there.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:53:11 +0000 % From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>NH Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )' Message-ID: <3C35DDF7.351BE77B@iee.org>r   Peter Flass wrote:  H >   2. Most of it (AFAIK) is written in a proprietary language BLISS-32.F >      Unless you want to rewrite all of VMS, you'd have to port BLISS: >      which (again AFAIK) is not intended to be portable.  + The non-portable BLISS code largely became c% portable BLISS code in the VAX->Alpha- transition.-  * I would be somewhat surprised if the Alpha( BLISS code is any sort of holdup at all.  ) There will be bits that have to change to ( cope with the hardware differences, but + that's par for the course with any hardwaree transition.    Antonio@     -- d   ---------------s- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgt   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:29:57 +0000o, From: Paul Williams <flo@uk.thalesgroup.com> Subject: Re: VT330/340 help?2 Message-ID: <3C358425.EDB1D101@uk.thalesgroup.com>   Tim Llewellyn wrote: >  > Bob Koehler wrote: > >lH > > I now have a DEC VT330, with a VT330/340 module plugged in the back. >  > That takes me back.  >  > >nD > > What software supports the mouse?  Will a VSXXX-AA (hockey puck)	 > > work?y > = > I think I remember plugging a VaxStation mouse into a Vt330   H Yes, the VSXXX-AA Mouse and VSXXX-AB Graphics Tablet can both be used onA these terminals, according to the Programmer Reference Manual[1].o  A > The Vt330 does Regis and Sixels. Maybe there was a Tek4014 modeo' > too, but as I said, its been a while.t  # Yes, there was a Tek graphics mode.   1 [1] http://vt100.net/docs/vt3xx-gp/chapter15.htmle   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 13:29:12 +0100g/ From: Nigel Arnot <sysmgr@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>eN Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more6 Message-ID: <00A077E3.18652D9A.2@maxwell.ph.kcl.ac.uk>   > >cF > >Continuing use of VMS by educational institutions ( for educationalI > >activities and not for behind the scene accounting ) would have helpedc > >to improve VMS's mindshare. > >DF > >Why did universities abandon VMS ? Was cost ( hardware and OS ) the@ > >primary factor ? How important was source code availability ? >   D Cost was a key issue but not the only one. I don't think source-code; availability was much of an issue. (Didn't hurt Microsoft!)   
 Other issues:e  E Hostility from computer scientists towards anything that wasn't Unix. G Later, they were joined by other technical computing people because the H souce codes they wanted to use were written for Unix and would be harder% to port to VMS than to another Unix. e  E Price/Performance w.r.t number-crunching. VAXen couldn't compete with H RISC boxes. By the time Alpha arrived, it was almost too late, and DEC's! mal-marketing was the last straw.h  K DEC was perceived (mostly with justification) as a really bad company to doaH business with. The product quality was superb, but OMiGawd the marketingF and sales! They were *actively* *discouraging* us from VMS - we shouldH be porting to Digital Unix. Or to NT. No surprise that a lot of us ended up with Sun!  I > The decline of VMS in education has a great deal to do with the general2M > decline of the operating system. Students become decision-makers and, in myRL > opinion, Compaq fail to see this. I'd like to see Compaq donating hardwareL > and software licenses to colleges and universities, but there seems littleI > hope of such radical marketing. After all, that is a long-term strategyo5 > which doesn't yield results in the current quarter.   H Definitely. Microsoft went out of its way to be friendly to universitiesG and has reaped the rewards. (And now it's a near-monopoly, it's started-> growling and chewing on the hands that fed it. Roll on Linux!)   	Yours,t
 		Nigel Arnotu- 		NRA@MAXWELL.PH.KCL.AC.UK                   g  7 		"In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded."M   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 05:45:14 -0500o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>hN Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more, Message-ID: <3C3587B0.C5D91516@videotron.ca>   Nigel Arnot wrote:G > Price/Performance w.r.t number-crunching. VAXen couldn't compete witho
 > RISC boxes.o  M They could have competed if Digital had appropriatly reduced the price of itsiK gear to match the general lowering of prices in the industry. DEC was stillrU selling RD54 drives at $9000 (CAD) when 1 gig drives were selling for a few hundreds.d  K Yeah, VAX was slower than the newfangled RISC boxes on a per cpu basis, butvO DEC could have still made vaxes attractive by having the right prices for them.2  F Look at the current PC business: even though they have 1.5ghz machinesI available, they are still selling heaps of 800 or less mhz machines for a  lower price.  > > By the time Alpha arrived, it was almost too late, and DEC's# > mal-marketing was the last straw.   N Again, Digital failed/refused to price Alpha appropriatly and refused to allowA VMS and Alpha to compete against the upcoming Microsoft products.y  K I remember asking why the DEC-C compiler was priced in the thousdands for a L MV-II while it was just a few hundred bucks on a PC and the dec response wasM that the VAX-C compiler was far superior than the compilers on PCs justifying,' the more than 1- fold price difference.e  N Later, Digital did introduce single user licenses that somewhat alleviated the: price difference, but again, that was too little too late.  M > DEC was perceived (mostly with justification) as a really bad company to doe > business with.  H Yep. Because DEC was trying to prevent customers from reducing their DECK spending instead of providing customers with optiosn to reduce their costs.tL (for instance, not wanting customers to dump older big machines in favour of" cheaper smaller low end machines).  J And when you look at the current trend, I'd say it would be the same thingM happening except it is more blatant: if you're not willing to spend megabucksCM on wildfires, we doN't really want you as a VMS customer and would prefer yout. buy some compaq wintel boxes from radio shack.  D By keeping only the largest customers whose CPU requirements make itE impossible to use low end machines, Compaq doesn't have to fear thosesL customers dumping their older large boxes in favour of smaller machines. AndK those customers, until NT is able to scale to such large machines, are also E somewhat stuck/captive so Compaq need not work as hard to keep those.l   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:34:46 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>N Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more0 Message-ID: <3C35D8E6.604D45D3@blueyonder.co.uk>   Nigel Arnot wrote:  oM > DEC was perceived (mostly with justification) as a really bad company to do J > business with. The product quality was superb, but OMiGawd the marketingH > and sales! They were *actively* *discouraging* us from VMS - we shouldJ > be porting to Digital Unix. Or to NT. No surprise that a lot of us ended > up with Sun!  F it was worse than that, in one cae I know of they refused to even bid H Tru64 (or OSF as it was then) for a major educational installation that B ended up on  SGI, this was early 90's, in the early days of Alpha.   regardsm   -- o Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  c  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of e! my employers or service provider.i   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 06:59:20 GMT ) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)sY Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more common hare' Message-ID: <a13js8$3e5$1@joe.rice.edu>b  ' Peter da Silva (peter@abbnm.com) wrote:a( : In article <3c32f51f$1@pull.gecm.com>,: : Paul Cooke <paul.cooke@baeSPAM_ME_NOTsystems.com> wrote:K : > so why are Microsoft being "punished" by "donating" lots of software toi
 : > schools??r :cC : I believe the latest spin on this is they will now have to donated! : money with no strings attached.s  4    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8247584.htmlE    Microsoft school decision held until 2002 -  Tech News -  CNET.com   ,    Microsoft school decision held until 2002
    By Reuterse"    December 20, 2001, 4:10 p.m. PT  G   "WASHINGTON--A federal judge in Baltimore on Thursday postponed untilsE    next month a decision on the proposed billion-dollar settlement of'2    class-action antitrust cases against Microsoft.  F    U.S. District Court Judge J. Frederick Motz said he will not decideD    until after Jan. 10 whether to endorse the settlement deal, whichH    would require the company to spend hundreds of millions of dollars toE    put software and computers into some of the poorest schools in ther    United States.h  H    Motz had said he would issue a decision on the settlement proposal byF    mid-December. But the judge said in a brief statement that he wouldH    hold off to give Microsoft and settling attorneys more time to try to?    negotiate a compromise with dissenting class-action lawyers.a  H    The settlement deal, reached last month between Microsoft and some ofD    the class-action attorneys in the case, would cover more than 100<    class-action antitrust cases pending against the company.  ?    But class-action attorneys from California have rejected the H    settlement and have asked Motz to exempt them from the deal. They say@    the money should be reimbursed directly to customers who were&    overcharged for Microsoft software.  H    Motz ordered the two sides into mediation Dec. 10 after holding three2    days of hearings on the proposed settlement..."    4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 18:19:47 +0100,1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>:/ Subject: Windows & Quickblade (was Blimps etc.)f5 Message-ID: <3C35E433.70C5ABFB@swissonline.delete.ch>l   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:f >  >...F > Windoze will, however, play a role in the forthcoming QuickBlade andN > Adaptive Infrastructure initiative, coming your way late this month. BelieveE > it or not, some of the Compaq-developed enhancements to Windoze are  > interesting indeed."    # So this means Windows on Itanium...,  G Sounds rather Marvel-less to me.  It might be impressive in concept butaF can Compaq somehow get past the credibility problem that Microsoft has with system security ?       John McLean    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:42:59 GMT-4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>3 Subject: Re: Windows & Quickblade (was Blimps etc.)n, Message-ID: <DQlZ7.7866$MK.117397@rwcrnsc54>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C35E433.70C5ABFB@swissonline.delete.ch...c >s >b > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:m > >e > >...H > > Windoze will, however, play a role in the forthcoming QuickBlade andH > > Adaptive Infrastructure initiative, coming your way late this month. BelievetG > > it or not, some of the Compaq-developed enhancements to Windoze areJ > > interesting indeed.s >A >s% > So this means Windows on Itanium...   L Ultimately, yes. This exists today on the ProLiant DL590/64 Blazer, and will) exist on the 32-way McKinley box as well.f  7 IPF-based Blade-and-fabric systems are a few years out.l   >tI > Sounds rather Marvel-less to me.  It might be impressive in concept butwH > can Compaq somehow get past the credibility problem that Microsoft has > with system security ?  A I doubt it. The thing is, in a full-blown Adaptive InfrastructureaJ Fire/Wind/Ice Server Utility platform, you'll be able to run multiple OSesI in their own domains. Hence you can use Windoze for scutwork, VMS, et al,n for REAL WORK.  F If I were in VMS marketing, I'd be having a field day with the ongoing Windoze Insecurity problems!   ------------------------------  " Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:43:31 GMT From: jbs@watson.ibm.comY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise  of comh7 Message-ID: <20020104.124331.637@yktvmv.WATSON.IBM.COM>b  7 In article <name99-0301021700420001@handma2.apple.com>,n$  on Thu, 03 Jan 2002 17:00:42 -0800,)  name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) writes: L >In article <pbn01a.rbe.ln@escape.shannon.net>, shannon@widomaker.com wrote: >y* >> In article <3C339075.5089DB3C@ev1.net>,. >> Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote: >>= >> > "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.l> >> > Talent will not. Nothing is more common than unsuccessful; >> > men with talent. Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is < >> > almost a proverb. Education will not. The world is full: >> > of educated derelicts. Persistence, determination and% >> > hard work makes the difference."r             <snip>  F >Oh come on, give me a break. The source was the (according to Charles! >Richmond) great Calvin Coolidge.n4 >(1) Name three great things he did. Heck, name one.  A           Ok, it's a stretch to label Coolidge great but he was as> success and I think the quote is about the sources of success.  G >(2) The agenda of a quote like this is quite transparent. You won't totI >fool the masses into believing that wealth is a consequence of hard work D >and thus deserved so that they won't notice that by far the bulk ofJ >wealthy people in the country (both then and now) are that way because of >their parents.o  B          If you mean because their parents gave them above averageA genes and upbringing you may be right.  If you mean because their , parents gave them their money you are wrong.(                         James B. Shearer   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 07:37:16 GMTD) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>eY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise   of comp ' Message-ID: <3C3577FC.A9FB9388@ev1.net>s   Charles Shannon Hendrix wrote: > ) > In article <3C339075.5089DB3C@ev1.net>,t- > Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:U > < > > "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.= > > Talent will not. Nothing is more common than unsuccessfuls: > > men with talent. Genius will not. Unrewarded genius is; > > almost a proverb. Education will not. The world is fullf9 > > of educated derelicts. Persistence, determination andf$ > > hard work makes the difference." > L > How true.  If you look at people who have "made it", this is usually true.J > In fact, I have not often found I think very much of the people that our0 > society trumpets as being so incredibly smart. > F > I know a lot of smart people that just don't have a lot of drive, orG > who are not extroverted enough to get anyone's attention.  Of course,mH > a good manager/leader is supposed to recognize people like that, in an > ideal situation anyway.s > F > A friend of mine told me this is because the really smart people areJ > usually bored or otherwise not interested in the "politics of ascension"@ > and so they don't achieve what they could.  Sounds reasonable. > C Hey, do *not* forget...Calvin Cooledge originated that paragraph...o   --  ? +-------------------------------------------------------------+n? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |o? +-------------------------------------------------------------+-   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 07:45:36 GMT.) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>eY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise   of comps' Message-ID: <3C3579F0.DD0F6A5C@ev1.net>B   Sander Vesik wrote:s > 8 > In comp.arch Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:/ > > (alleged to Confuzius, though I doubt that). >  > > Beware of: > L > > * People who think that having played computer games to excess qualifies > > as "computer expert".3 > H > * People who think that recompiling the Linux kernel N number of times% > qualifies them as "computer expert"d > > * People who think they are computer experts because they know7 how to print Christmas cards on their inkjet printer...a   -- b? +-------------------------------------------------------------+e? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |i? +-------------------------------------------------------------+s   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 02 10:37:13 GMTs From: jmfbahciv@aol.comfY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise   of compt+ Message-ID: <a14839$1l0$6@bob.news.rcn.net>   ' In article <3C3579F0.DD0F6A5C@ev1.net>,p-    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:  >Sander Vesik wrote: >> d9 >> In comp.arch Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:u0 >> > (alleged to Confuzius, though I doubt that) >> a >> > Beware of:i >>  D >> > * People who think that having played computer games to excess 	 qualifiesr >> > as "computer expert". >> eI >> * People who think that recompiling the Linux kernel N number of times & >> qualifies them as "computer expert" >> -? >* People who think they are computer experts because they know 8 >how to print Christmas cards on their inkjet printer... >03 Ooooooooooooo....boy did you just hit a hot button..   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.t   ------------------------------  * Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 13:44:39 +0000 (UTC)/ From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>tY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise   of compe3 Message-ID: <1010151877.549999@haldjas.folklore.ee>e  : In comp.arch Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> wrote: > Sander Vesik wrote:l  9 >> In comp.arch Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote: 0 >> > (alleged to Confuzius, though I doubt that) >> m >> > Beware of:a >> aM >> > * People who think that having played computer games to excess qualifies1 >> > as "computer expert". >> mI >> * People who think that recompiling the Linux kernel N number of times0& >> qualifies them as "computer expert"  $ > Well, let's face it: It does help.  J So does compiling X11 or really anything large from source. But it doesn'tK really prove much beyond the ability to do elementary things on the commanda line...t  F > I believe that the fact that GCC-3.0.2 couldn't compile 819too.c was: > registered in our bug database at least two dozen times.  9 > That way, it was impossible to overlook the problem :-)   > It might help other people yes, but not proofs about their own capabilities...    > -- sI > Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290w8 > Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG  Maartensdijk, The NetherlandsI > Maintainer, GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.htmlnG > Join GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction)    -- o 	Sander    +++ Out of cheese error +++    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 07:43:28 GMTr) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>eY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compad' Message-ID: <3C357970.4BA2BD04@ev1.net>h   Terje Mathisen wrote:s > , >      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...] > E > I mostly agree with that, however it is still a lot of fun to learniF > something totally useless every once in a while, i.e. like getting a? > unicycle from my father-in-law for Christmas a few years ago:o > E > Learning to ride it took about 5 hours, another week or two to feele6 > confident enough to ride it to work (up & downhill). > F > Is it useful knowledge? Probably not: I use 16 minutes to walk to myD > office, 13 minutes on the unicycle (but then I'm a bit warm when I0 > arrive), and less than 5 on a regular MT bike. > C Claude Shannon enjoyed riding his unicycle up and down the hallwayse. at A.T.& T. So you are/were in good company... >cJ > I hope I'll still enjoy learning new things until the day I die. My roleI > model is the 95-year old guy who take part in the Veterans World Cup in,E > Orienteering: If I can a) read a map and understand it, and b) moveLE > around in a forest without help at that age, I'll be satisfied. :-)  > A I have read that when he was 90 years old, Pablo Casals practiced ? the cello for 6 hours every day. When asked why he practiced so1. much, he said:  "I think I'm gettin better..."   -- h? +-------------------------------------------------------------+R? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |i? +-------------------------------------------------------------+e   ------------------------------  ! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 02 10:35:47 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.comrY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compa + Message-ID: <a1480l$1l0$5@bob.news.rcn.net>)  3 In article <1010073413.645851@haldjas.folklore.ee>, 3    Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee> wrote:n7 >In comp.arch Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> wrote:t. >> (alleged to Confuzius, though I doubt that) >o
 >> Beware of:n >CK >> * People who think that having played computer games to excess qualifiese >> as "computer expert". >zG >* People who think that recompiling the Linux kernel N number of timeso$ >qualifies them as "computer expert"  : Well, it may if they fixed everything that went wrong with each build.o   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 11:24:59 GMT , From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise  of compae% Message-ID: <1010143499snz@dsl.co.uk>h  7 In article <pg8a3uo5rofj0v368h6gv5ramombl0nleb@4ax.com> 9            israelrt@optushome.com.au "israel r t" writes:c  G > " The political genius of President Coolidge, Walter Lippmann pointedoB > out in 1926, was his talent for effectively doing nothing: "ThisB > active inactivity suits the mood and certain of the needs of the > country admirably. .." "  I Was it not also Coolidge of whom, upon being told that he'd died, Dorothyo" Parker said "How can they tell?" ?   -- cM Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.ukeM     "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one ofdM     distributed ignorance.  And we know and understand less while being incr-tM     easingly capable."              Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labsd   ------------------------------   Date: 4 Jan 2002 06:57:09 -0800 . From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)N Subject: [Q] What is a NRO PPF? SPAWN/INPUT table; associated terminal mailbox= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0201040657.2c13c4bf@posting.google.com>u   Hello,  0 [My apologies if I'm missing something obvious.]  3 In the help for SPAWN /INPUT it talks about NRO PPFuD (non-record-oriented process permanent files). What are they talkingB about? I.e., what is an NRO PPF? Can you give an(some) example(s)?  " What is the meaning of this table:  ./      Process Type     SYS$INPUT  Implicit Input    ,      Interactive      NRO PPF    SYS$COMMAND  3,      Noninteractive   NRO PPF    Null device  r*      Any              Any other  SYS$INPUT  iC If you explicitly redefine SYS$INPUT to an NRO PPF, what's implicitt0 about it? IOW, what's the relevance of column 3?  F      If SYS$INPUT is a terminal, it cannot have an associated terminal
      mailbox.i  C What is an "associated terminal mailbox"? I assume it is similar to!F not being able to ATTACH to a process that was created by SPAWN/NOWAIT" or to another interactive session.  @ Thanks in advance for your help. (I'm running VMS 6.1 and 6.2 on VAXes.)'   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmana afeldman!~~/\~~!gfigroup.com   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.008 ************************