0 INFO-VAX	Mon, 07 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 12      Contents: <None> Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?B Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what wentH Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrongP Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong   at DEP Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DECP Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DECO Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC > Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the/ RE: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media? / Re: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media? / Re: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media? % Clustering nodes at VMS 7.3 and 7.1-2 = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" - RE: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" 9 Re: Converting indexed file to sequential yields unprikw? 9 Re: Converting indexed file to sequential yields unprikw? 9 Re: Crazy Quilting, Embroidery and Embellishment Supplies - Re: DEClaser 2200 - pickup roller replacement  Re: Emulation... Re: Emulation... Re: Emulation...& re: Exabyte 8200/8500 interoperability& Have folks seen this from the NY Times* Re: Have folks seen this from the NY Times HELP (DCL) inconsistency RE: HELP (DCL) inconsistency. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  RE: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. RE: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses.9 Intel working on 32bit/64bit chip in case Itanium falters ' LIB$INITIALIZE image_info record layout + Re: LIB$INITIALIZE image_info record layout , Re: logicals pointing to files opened by DCL Multia help  Newbie questions Re: Newbie questions Re: Newbie questions Re: Newbie questions OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????" Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????" Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????" Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ???? Re: OT: Phone charges in Europe  Re: OT: Phone charges in Europe  Part Number for VMS CD's Re: Part Number for VMS CD's Re: Part Number for VMS CD's$ Product install and installed images( Re: Product install and installed images( Re: Product install and installed images( Re: Product install and installed images  Re: REPLY command usage change ?  Re: REPLY command usage change ?  Re: REPLY command usage change ?  Re: REPLY command usage change ?P Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demiP Re: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The  demise o+ Ultrix support in current VMS EVE code base / Re: Ultrix support in current VMS EVE code base  VERB and SYS.STB Re: VERB and SYS.STB Re: VERB and SYS.STB Re: VERB and SYS.STB Re: VERB and SYS.STB Re: VERB and SYS.STB Re: VERB and SYS.STB Re: VERB and SYS.STB solved !  Re: VERB and SYS.STB solved !  Re: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and VAX clusteringP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if  merger   sucee$ VMS Marketing For the General Public? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) ? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) ? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) ? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) # RE: what is future of VMS and alpha # RE: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # RE: what is future of VMS and alpha # RE: what is future of VMS and alpha ( Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?( Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?( Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?( Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise    of coP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise    of co9 Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha 9 Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 09:16:06 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: <None> 3 Message-ID: <xWP$QYE7oMtv@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ] In article <a14rh2$20q0$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:  > A > I don't see a "lowercase" option in either Windows "ren" or VMS @ > "rename". Do newer VMS versions maintain the case of filenames	 > anyway?  >   E    Window's "ren" won't do it.  You have to use a temnporary name and H    two ren commands.  VMS rename will do it if there's only one version.    No options required.         ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:47:12 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS 1 Message-ID: <Ltj_7.336$5Y4.8335@news.cpqcorp.net>   ! .Keith Brown wrote in message ...  .  .Fred, . I .Not that I thought you were asking for input but my 2 cents is free. I'm K .fine with CDE on VMS but, if another desktop were being considered I would L .prefer KDE over gnome. It is also open source and many users consider it to .be very much like Windows.  .   J If someone were to ask me to provide an alternative to CDE, I would likelyH have to go with Gnome.  It has less to do with functionality or look andH feel - but with my gut instinct on which environment will be more widelyI used in Linux/UNIX.  KDE appears to have a small and loyal following, but 1 Gnome is getting backing from companies like SUN.   K There are lots of issues with "porting" either environment.  None the least C of which is how directories and files are handled and presented.  A J significant amount of work went into CDE, Motif and Xm to handle VMS-styleJ presentation.  It's not pretty.  Would users embrace a Gnome/KDE port thatA required ODS-5, and presented the filesystem as if it were a UNIX  filesystem?   J In any case, nothing is on the table at this point.  Before we do anythingK further, we need to complete the upgrade of the X11 bits (mostly the client 5 libraries) to X11R6.5 - which is needed to do either.    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:39:38 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS ; Message-ID: <01KCSQN51BKK8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   H Not that I thought you were asking for input but my 2 cents is free. I'mJ fine with CDE on VMS but, if another desktop were being considered I wouldK prefer KDE over gnome. It is also open source and many users consider it to  be very much like Windows.  F If "much like Windows" means that the "destroy" and "iconify" buttons ) are right next to each other, no thanks!     ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:02:48 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> ! Subject: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? ; Message-ID: <01KCSEVOKUXA8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   H > >Santa Claus brought me a Digital Personal Workstation "A series" 600aQ > >with CPU Alpha 21164 599MHz, 1024 Mo and 2 RZ1CC-BA 883F with LINUX installed.  > K > >Can I boot a VMS 7.3 CD with this machine and have success to install my > > >brand new Hobbyist software by just initializing the disks? > 
 > Why not?  1 As usual, make sure you have the latest firmware.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 05:56:41 -0800 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)! Subject: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201070556.250ea622@posting.google.com>   ] Pascale Morandi <Pascale.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message news:<3C38A193.EC66A51@Free.fr>... : > Hi there all, Happy New Year! Long time no read/write... > G > Santa Claus brought me a Digital Personal Workstation "A series" 600a P > with CPU Alpha 21164 599MHz, 1024 Mo and 2 RZ1CC-BA 883F with LINUX installed. > J > Can I boot a VMS 7.3 CD with this machine and have success to install my= > brand new Hobbyist software by just initializing the disks?  > 	 > Thanks,  >  > D.  + I think the "au" model is the vms model ...    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 11:45:14 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) K Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went 3 Message-ID: <0s5xGkGyIzhQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   Z In article <3C39D23B.68BB86BE@jetnet.ab.ca>, Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes: > E > I suspect it the users of C rather than the language at fault here. A > If I remember from the K&R book that a char was at least 7 bits  > wide.   B    I was taught that K&R described C as "for modern byte oriented"
    computers.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 09:04:59 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Q Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong 3 Message-ID: <65pu1kfjwj8b@eisner.encompasserve.org>   T In article <3C368C18.D685425C@Empire.Net>, John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> writes: >  > John Sauter responded: > 6 > To the best of my knowledge, EDT was never ported to > the 36-bit systems.   G    I used EDT on my TOPS-20 systems.  It wasn't until I got Ultrix that J    DEC had given up on having all patforms support EDT as the DEC standard
    editor.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 14:46:33 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong   at DE 8 Message-ID: <4h8j3uo3l64scggcu8ms4d6gnei9vjrvqc@4ax.com>  E On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 00:16:08 -0500, John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net>  wrote:  & >"Bart Z. Lederman" wrote (excerpted): > 9 >Early on, we (I was a customer then) were impressed that ; >Digital could write the EDT editor in BLISS, and it would  9 >run on several different PDP-11 operating systems on 16  : >bit hardware, VMS on 32 bit hardware, and TOPS on 36 bit 8 >hardware.  Not many other languages could do that back  >then. >  >John Sauter responded:  > 5 >To the best of my knowledge, EDT was never ported to 5 >the 36-bit systems.  I was the EDT project leader in 6 >the early 1980's so I know it didn't happen then.  If  D Errm EDT was definitely available for TOPS-20 by the mid 80s. One ofD my benchmark tests I ran pitting a VAX 11/780 against a DEC-20 (RP07A disks both cases) was a global search and replace on a particular B file. The 20 would complete in approximately 1/5th the time of the= VAX. The following appears in the TOPS-20 V7 installation kit A listings: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/pdp-10/BB-H137F-BM.HTML   ? DUMPER tape #1, 22-JUN-1988 19:37:20. Saveset "SUBSYS Files for 
 TOPS-20 V7.0"   D PS:<NEW-SUBSYS>EDT.EXE.1                             680  1-JUN-1988 20:15:52  F We never upgraded beyond TOPS-20 V5 IIRC and we had it on that versionE although it may have come on a distinct tools or integration tape but 4 was obviously fully integrated by V7 as shown above.  8 >it happened between then and 1992 I probably would have. >heard about it, since I came to VMS from LCG.  = Then it does appear absolutely astonishing you wouldn't know!   & >    John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 08:34:35 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DEC 3 Message-ID: <7ZP$30gU0F2I@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <qhitahj434.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> writes:. > John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes:H >> While Compaq never sold BLISS for NT, we certainly continue to use itH >> for the Fortran products (both on Alpha NT and IA32 NT) since the GEM8 >> component of the compiler is written mostly in BLISS. > E > Would it be that hard to do an automatic translation of BLISS to C?   H    BLISS can handle non-byte oriented computers, something K&R claimed C    wasn't trying to do.   E    I've seen C compilers for PDP-10, so it is possible to ignore K&R, C    but I don't think a lot of copies sold, and most existing C code 7    assumes char = byte and even numbers of char to int.              ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:52:11 -0700 + From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DEC , Message-ID: <3C39D23B.68BB86BE@jetnet.ab.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote: > h > In article <qhitahj434.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> writes:0 > > John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes:J > >> While Compaq never sold BLISS for NT, we certainly continue to use itJ > >> for the Fortran products (both on Alpha NT and IA32 NT) since the GEM: > >> component of the compiler is written mostly in BLISS. > > G > > Would it be that hard to do an automatic translation of BLISS to C?  > J >    BLISS can handle non-byte oriented computers, something K&R claimed C >    wasn't trying to do.  > G >    I've seen C compilers for PDP-10, so it is possible to ignore K&R, E >    but I don't think a lot of copies sold, and most existing C code 9 >    assumes char = byte and even numbers of char to int.  >  >   C I suspect it the users of C rather than the language at fault here. ? If I remember from the K&R book that a char was at least 7 bits E wide. Exact details was left to the compiler writer for each machine. D Still it hard to write portable code , as every machine is different= and management never thinks of the aspect of software design!      --  % Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * + www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 08:31:13 -0600i- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) X Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <9x5iu4IPAhy0@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  T In article <3C35C636.70809@compaq.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes: > Mark Crispin wrote:a > E >> If I remember correctly, assignment was underscore.  Another wart,tG >> assuming that the world is still Model 35 Teletypes with 1963 ASCII. K >> Also, you didn't use the dot on the left side of assignments.  Hence you-0 >> wrote "X_.Y;" for "x = y;", yet another wart. >> T >  > / > No, assignment is "=" just like you'd expect.c >   E    You're both almost right.  The original assignment was back-arrow.@F    A single character that looked somewhat like "<-".  The graphic forF    this character changed from backarrow to underscore and BLISS added    = as an alternative.r  F    When I first started using BLISS-10, the docuemnt I had only showedA    backarrow and I had to cross reference it's ASCII table with a"D    current one to find it had become underscore.  Then I was readingF    the VMS microfich and realized Common BLISS was using =, so I triedD    that with BLISS-10 (predates Common BLISS), and was very happy to    find out is worked.  G    But BLISS-10 had a bad habit of not allowing spaces next to either _dA    or = in those days, so you had to write "x_.y" or "x=.y", not l-    "x = .y" which I kept trying out of habit.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 09:18:09 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)dG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thei3 Message-ID: <sJsqVfwoEmbR@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  W In article <3C369287.6080901@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:: >  > An AST delivery?- > An interupt caused by 'end of run quantum'?p > The list is long.e > K > Actually, I'm not a HW person, and aren't really sure that an in-process PH > instruction can be interupted.  However, there can be things delaying  > the next add instruction.  >   C    Interrupts are delivered "between" instructions, not during one.r   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 15:34:26 GMT1( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thet2 Message-ID: <a1cf62$2v16$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  3 In article <sJsqVfwoEmbR@eisner.encompasserve.org>, . Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:: >In article <3C369287.6080901@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble ><davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:L >> Actually, I'm not a HW person, and aren't really sure that an in-process I >> instruction can be interupted.  However, there can be things delaying   >> the next add instruction.  D >   Interrupts are delivered "between" instructions, not during one.  K That is implementation dependent. Often (particularly in CISC processors ormK systems with long pipelines) an interrupt may occur while an instruction istL in flight. On a system with virtual memory and memory-memory operations likeN the 68000 or VAX this may actually be common. There are various mechanisms for dealing with it:  C 	1. Dump information about the current internal state on the stack,v0 	   restore it and resume the instruction later.  B 	2. Back out the instruction and undo any side effects, then start+ 	   it over after the interrupt is handled.e  B 	3. Defer the interrupt until the instruction is complete (this is4 	   obviously not an option for VM page faults :->).  D 	4. Abort the instruction, and let software fix things up and resume: 	   the instruction or emulate it and continue afterwards.  D 	5. Provide a secondary processor to handle interrupts (One company,C 	   I think it was Altos, did this to get demand paging on a 68000: A 	   they ran two CPUs in lockstep and had the "trailing" CPU takeh  	   over and handle page faults.   -- 3@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)E   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:03:49 -00008 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>8 Subject: RE: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media?N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF19A@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  L To ensure writing at a particular density I label the Exabyte tape on a 82000 for low density and on a 8500 for high density. G I never use compression. Exabyte behaviour may vary with firmware revs,I) packaging of the Exabyte and VMS drivers.T   John n  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKcA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)0   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 13:23:38 +0100 (MET)s9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>18 Subject: Re: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media?; Message-ID: <01KCSHOPRUXW8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>2  I > Exabyte behaviour may vary with firmware revs, packaging of the Exabyte9 > and VMS drivers. v  I Were Exabytes (or any other 8mm "video 8" tape drives) ever supported by   Digital for VMS?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:24:48 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>8 Subject: Re: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media?6 Message-ID: <1020107131559.56656B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ) On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Phillip Helbig wrote:   K > > Exabyte behaviour may vary with firmware revs, packaging of the Exabyte- > > and VMS drivers.   > K > Were Exabytes (or any other 8mm "video 8" tape drives) ever supported by : > Digital for VMS?  B Yes.  At least 2 models are/were available.  TKZ15 and TKZ0, IIRC.0 I think the TKZ09 is more recent than the TKZ15.  > WE have a TKZ15 that shows up on VMS as a device type EXABYTE < EXB-85058SQANXR1.  It is under Compaq maintenance.  In fact,< the original drive, which had worked fine for several years,; broke about two months ago when someone wedged a tape in itb> upside-down.  (No idea how they did this - a hammer?)  It took< about 4 replacement drives before they got it working again.; Turned out to be a combintation of bad spares and incorrectS> SCSI termination.  (For some reason, the original drive didn't> mind the triply-terminated SCSI bus!)  Some of the replacementA drives were marked Compaq, some Exabyte, but the service guy said  they were all the same inside.   --   John Santosa Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:33:46 -07000$ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>. Subject: Clustering nodes at VMS 7.3 and 7.1-2) Message-ID: <3C39EA09.5E5FAFDF@cha.ab.ca>n  H Can anyone provide feedback on having ES45' at 7.3 and AS1200's at 7.1-2: in a production cluster?  Has it been reliable and stable? TIA.   -- Leeo  ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authorityn? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSCw4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9e   ------------------------------    Date: 07 Jan 2002 12:58:12 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>F Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders0 Message-ID: <87g05ivjtn.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  6 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  M > I can respect the gentleman's opinion (that the merger would in his opinionCD > not be a good thing for HWP) but if that's the case he should haveI > registered his opposition right from the get-go. Voting in favor of the L > merger and subsequently mounting a jihad against it is not a prudent move. > My opinion only.  # The facts I have seen reported are:   4 1 He indicated he was going to vote NO to the board.  F 2 HPs council told him (out of the board room) that the vote needed to@ be unanomous for the current offer to proceed and to lock in theE current price. If he 'nayed' the current offer, it could result in HPn having to pay a higher price.   D 3 He informed the board he would vote YES to allow the current terms3 to be locked in, but would vote NO with his shares.n     -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 07 Jan 2002 13:00:16 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>F Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders0 Message-ID: <87advqvjq7.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  6 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  L > Well, that sorta kinda is what happened to Eckhard Pfeiffer, isn't it? ;-}  J No, EP was caught selling his shares just before reporting an income fall.8 Very, very against the rulels there. (Getting caught...)   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:36:58 -0800l' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>zF Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders+ Message-ID: <3C39DCBA.123F5C5F@caltech.edu>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:o > < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message > > M > > Even the most rebel of board members at HP votes "YES" to the merger evennI > > though he opposed it and will vote NO when the time comes to vote his 	 > shares.e > J > The Board member in question should be ousted. If he opposed the merger,K > then voted in favor of the merger, he has absolutely no business speakingeL > out against the merger now. Nor does he have any business remaining on theN > Board since he obviously didn't vote his conscience in the first place. ThisB > behavior reflects an appalling lack of fiduicary responsibility.  N My understanding of this was that he was the only dissenting vote on the BOD -
 so the mergerwL was going to go ahead with or without his support.  If he voted YES then the termsrL the merger would be more favorable to HP than if he voted NO.  (I'm not 100% clearaL on why this was so, but apparently there was big difference in $$$ somewhere betweenwO a unanimous and majority vote.)  So he did what he had to in terms of fiduciaryi terms.M He informed the board that he would vote his personal stock against it (whichg shouldL have beena big red flag for them...) and then voted for the merger.  I think	 maybe histM only other choice would have been to resign in protest, which one could arguec woulde= have been an even bigger abrogation of his fiduciary duties.     It was basically this scenario:e  < Pilot:    I am going to fly the plane through that mountain.3 Copilot:  That sounds like a really bad idea ma'am!a) Pilot:    Shut up, I know what I'm doing.c/ Copilot:  Why don't we fly around the mountain?eO Pilot:    Why DUH!  Because after we fly through the mountain the airplane will  fly '           twice as well as it does now. F Copilot:  Oh sure, that makes perfect sense. I'm going back to see the stewardess about some tea.  D (Copilot walks into first class, closing the cabin door behind him.)  P Copilot:  Help!  Help! The pilot has gone insane - help me get her away from the	 controls!e   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:49:17 +0000c% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>r6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"8 Message-ID: <ilfj3ugjminjotkomdue97p9acv5g7g62v@4ax.com>  , On Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:53:12 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:b   >lI >They have managed to save VMS from death row at least once under currentnN >Compaq management. So while we may be complaining about compaq mishandling ofK >VMS and lack of visibility, these guys still deserve a pat on the back foreD >having saved VMS from execution THIS TIME and they even got a smallL >"renaissance" period of a few months with a token marketing to show that itT >was possible to stop diminishing sales and grow VMS again during that short period.  E Yes all the information seems to suggest that Marcello et al. are notaD part of any 'plot' to kill VMS. It remains my 'feeling' that VMS wasC not scheduled for a port until relatively recently and that intenseeA customer disquiet as well as the efforts by VMS management reallynC forced Capellas and Winkler to take a closer look. Recall Winkler's F "regarding OVMS I have found religion. Now all we have to do is find aE way to grow sales" comment. Perhaps a failed HP merger will encouragehE them to make good on this. It is just a pity that their confidence ineC the HP merger going through presumably  encouraged them to announcesB the end of Alpha prematurely. Now they've got to fight nose-divingD Tru64 sales and damage to VMS sales as well as turn the ship around.  C Given that I have it on unimpeachable authority that the UK VMS andBB Alpha marketing campaigns of the first 6 months 2001  *did* have aF noticeable positive effect on sales and that this information is knownF to US management I would have to assume that Compaq will launch a well@ targeted (but not just to existing customers) US VMS advertising? campaign. If they don't it is confirmation that they are eithert9 incompetent or *still* do not wish to increase VMS sales.     M >However, now that Compaq knows that some marketing money will make VMS grow, N >(that small renaissance being proof that VMS can grow), how come they stoppedB >that mini marketing funding and didn't continue the renaissance ?   End of the trial period?   >hM >That would be worthy to bring to the attention of media/shareholders: Compaq N >knows that small amounts of markleting will result in VMS growing. This meansK >that VMS has potential to grow and that it is pretty easy to make it grow.?J >Since it is so profitable, how come Compaq has stopped taking those small >steps to make VMS grow ?i  B Eye off the ball? But I am led to believe that we haven't seen theD last of the UK VMS ads but none have appeared since the Alphacide. I am waiting....  B I did get the excellent VMS brochure in the post the other day and< this may be a sign of more general material to come. I hope! -- Alan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:24:16 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>6 Subject: RE: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"- Message-ID: <0033000046994660000002L002*@MHS>q  ; =0AI too believe that Messrs. Marcello, Winkler and (nobody 6 mentioned) Gorham are doing the best they can with the7 resources that the company is allocating for their use.n  C Could it be that there are others in the food chain who are in direo> need of education so they can see beyond their misconceptions?  < One grows a bigger church by directing more of the preachingB to the congregation (and the unchurched) instead of the choir, andH said preaching should be preformed vigorously and at frequent intervals= .z  ? This applies to the abovementioned food chain as well as to theL marketing of VMS in toto.o   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETe' Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 12:03 PMeB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET6 Subject: RE: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"    , On Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:53:12 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:r   >aH >They have managed to save VMS from death row at least once under curre= ntH >Compaq management. So while we may be complaining about compaq mishand= ling of H >VMS and lack of visibility, these guys still deserve a pat on the back=  forD >having saved VMS from execution THIS TIME and they even got a smallH >"renaissance" period of a few months with a token marketing to show th= at it H >was possible to stop diminishing sales and grow VMS again during that = short: period.S  E Yes all the information seems to suggest that Marcello et al. are noteD part of any 'plot' to kill VMS. It remains my 'feeling' that VMS wasC not scheduled for a port until relatively recently and that intense A customer disquiet as well as the efforts by VMS management reallywC forced Capellas and Winkler to take a closer look. Recall Winkler'soF "regarding OVMS I have found religion. Now all we have to do is find aE way to grow sales" comment. Perhaps a failed HP merger will encourage,E them to make good on this. It is just a pity that their confidence in'C the HP merger going through presumably  encouraged them to announcenB the end of Alpha prematurely. Now they've got to fight nose-divingD Tru64 sales and damage to VMS sales as well as turn the ship around.  C Given that I have it on unimpeachable authority that the UK VMS andtB Alpha marketing campaigns of the first 6 months 2001  *did* have aF noticeable positive effect on sales and that this information is knownF to US management I would have to assume that Compaq will launch a well@ targeted (but not just to existing customers) US VMS advertising? campaign. If they don't it is confirmation that they are eitheru9 incompetent or *still* do not wish to increase VMS sales.w    H >However, now that Compaq knows that some marketing money will make VMS=  grow,H >(that small renaissance being proof that VMS can grow), how come they = stopped-B >that mini marketing funding and didn't continue the renaissance ?   End of the trial period?   >:H >That would be worthy to bring to the attention of media/shareholders: = CompaqH >knows that small amounts of markleting will result in VMS growing. Thi= s means,H >that VMS has potential to grow and that it is pretty easy to make it g= row.H >Since it is so profitable, how come Compaq has stopped taking those sm= all  >steps to make VMS grow ?   B Eye off the ball? But I am led to believe that we haven't seen theD last of the UK VMS ads but none have appeared since the Alphacide. I am waiting....  B I did get the excellent VMS brochure in the post the other day and< this may be a sign of more general material to come. I hope! -- Alan=g   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:29:33 +0100g1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>t6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"5 Message-ID: <3C39E90D.A11FBBEE@swissonline.delete.ch>e   WILLIAM WEBB wrote:l > : > I too believe that Messrs. Marcello, Winkler and (nobody8 > mentioned) Gorham are doing the best they can with the9 > resources that the company is allocating for their use.  > E > Could it be that there are others in the food chain who are in direu@ > need of education so they can see beyond their misconceptions? > > > One grows a bigger church by directing more of the preachingD > to the congregation (and the unchurched) instead of the choir, andJ > said preaching should be preformed vigorously and at frequent intervals. > A > This applies to the abovementioned food chain as well as to theb > marketing of VMS in toto.e >  > WWWebb  E I am spending a lot of time - and a number of emails with Compaq - to D see if I can figure out where the problem lies (or is that "problems lie" ?).  G The niche market idea is just too restrictive.  They should change thathD name to "favourite markets" and release VMS to the wider community. H Mind you, some advertising would help a lot too... important issues like8 system security and the availability factor of clusters.  G Reading between various lines it looks like Compaq has doubts about thedC level of sales it might get outside the designated niches.  I don'tpF understand why they have these doubts (poor advice ?  poor analysis ?)D but I do believe that the longer they delay, the greater will be theH loss of potential customers and then those doubts will become justified.  H (BTW, I also wonder at the influence of the PC crowd in Houston when VMSG is in the NE and Tandem on the west coast.  If Compaq bit the PC bullet-A then having a headquarters in Houston makes no sense if the majorm) products are produced in other locations.o  F Also, if the world was logical then the Windows users would be beggingD Compaq to keep trying with the Windows-platforms despite all the bigH losses, but instead we have the profitable segments that must beg Compaq to expand them.)  F Recently I read some stuff written by business advisor Ram Charan.  HeH says that prosperity depends on growth and not to grow is to decline, if? not immediately then over time.  Growth has to be directed intolD profitable areas and so yes, there is a little bit of sense in being2 cautious about VMS growth into the general market.  < Charan also says that one sign of business acumen is findingH opportunities for profitable growth when others can't.  Compaq have beenE reported as saying "there's no money in being different" but how doesaF one find opportunities for profitable growth without being different ?  D So Compaq sit on their hands regards their unique products - VMS and Tandem NSK ...  + It really doesn't make much sense does it ?      John McLeand   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 09:39:21 -0600-- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)3B Subject: Re: Converting indexed file to sequential yields unprikw?3 Message-ID: <18ksKKSXQrPk@eisner.encompasserve.org>2  j In article <139d5a58.0201060559.40212572@posting.google.com>, cgilley@bravewc.com (Charles Gilley) writes:4 > This really should be simple, but my vms is fuzzy.6 > I have an indexed file that I am porting to PC-land.? > All I want to do is dump the file, so off I go to convert to  = > sequential format.  But, the convert yields unprikw errors.T >   E    help/message unprikw reveals that there's a typo in your FDL file.1  H    If data in the the file is ASCII, you can "convert" it with a simple     type/output.e   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 10:29:24 -0600a From: briggs@encompasserve.orgB Subject: Re: Converting indexed file to sequential yields unprikw?3 Message-ID: <81MQvHFe23pz@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  j In article <139d5a58.0201061415.652f67c8@posting.google.com>, cgilley@bravewc.com (Charles Gilley) writes:w > system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote in message news:<00A07A28.77C0A54E@SendSpamHere.ORG>...tm >> In article <139d5a58.0201060559.40212572@posting.google.com>, cgilley@bravewc.com (Charles Gilley) writes:o6 >> >This really should be simple, but my vms is fuzzy.8 >> >I have an indexed file that I am porting to PC-land.A >> >All I want to do is dump the file, so off I go to convert to j? >> >sequential format.  But, the convert yields unprikw errors.. >> > >> >What are these?  >> > >> >chgf >> c >> h@ >>  UNPRIKW,  unrecognized primary keyword in statement 'number' >>            'reference-text' >> I% >>   Facility:     FDL, FDL Utilities  >>  , >>   Explanation:  A keyword was misspelled. >> .8 >>   User Action:  Correct the spelling in the FDL file.9 >>                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  >  > H > Errr...  oops.  I interpreted the message to mean something wrong withH > the file.  Interestingly, I editted the fdl file with edit/fdl, so I'm= > not sure how I managed to munge it.  On to other things....e  F Rather than editing an FDL file, there are several simpler approaches. The one I like is:  # $ CONVERT yourfile.dat * /FDL=NLA0:a  B A null FDL defaults to sequential with variable length records and implied carriage control.o  B Now you're all set for a text mode file transfer.  The result willB typically be binary safe unless you have carriage-return/line-feed combinations in your file data.t  @ If you need strict binary compatibility and have variable lengthG records, you'll need to decide how you're going to port the out-of-band.F end-of-record information from the VMS side into the in-band technique you have chosen on the PC side.o  E One possibility would be to first convert the file to variable lengtheA records as above and then to transfer the result in a binary-safe A manner.  Depending on your file transfer package, you may need tos do something like:  @ $ SET FILE yourfile.dat /ATTR=(RFM:FIX,MRS:512,LRL:512,RAT=NONE)  B The purpose of this step is to relabel your file so that your fileB transfer package will treat the both record length information and. the actual file data as one big hunk of bytes.  B Then you can do the binary file transfer and write PC side code to6 handle the standard RMS variable length record layout:  % record-length:  2 bytes little-endian - record-contents:  record-length bytes of datau< pad: 0 or 1 bytes to align next record on even byte boundary  ? Record length of %xFFFF indicates end of block but will only beC? encountered if you somehow manage to screw up the file size andrD transfer data past the end-of-file byte or if you manage to transfer6 file data from a file with the BLOCKSPAN NO attribute.    @ If your file started with fixed length records then you can keep things simpler:p  ( $ CONVERT your-file.dat * /FDL=SYS$INPUT RECORD FORMAT FIXED) SIZE 124  (or whatever the fixed size is)  ^Z $   C Now do a binary transfer.  If your fixed record length was odd, you E may need to check whether your binary transfer utility did or did note. transfer the records padded to an even length.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:32:26 -0000c- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)rB Subject: Re: Crazy Quilting, Embroidery and Embellishment Supplies7 Message-ID: <918F6481Ewarrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>e  + Nice to see a little variety in this ng <g>s   ws --     Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)t The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **    4 janet@vintagevogue.com (Janet Stauffacher) wrote in . <iss.64cb.3c3686ca.116ac.1@mx2.west.saic.com>:   >Hi, >,A >If you like quilting, crazy quilting, needlework, ribbonwork or nD >crafts then Vintage Vogue has something for you.  We have in stock: >o# >115 colors of French wired ribbon e" >23 colors of rayon velvet ribbon % >24 colors of rayon grosgrain ribbon o' >12 colors of picot-edged ombre ribbon s! >545 colors of Eterna Silk threadt* >Silk dyer's ribbons, fabrics and threads C >15 colors of iridescent velvet fabric (used in Piecemaker's crazy m >quilt calendars)  >Ribbonwork patterns and kits & >Antiqued charms and jewelry findings ) >Crinoline and other ribbonwork supplies b >Needlecases and thimblecases = >Velvet Pansies (seen in Victorian Pansies by Jenny Haskins) d >Velvet Leaves i >Flower Stamens * >Quilting Arts and Belle Armoire magazines% >300 Victorian Postcards on a CD-ROM u> >Computer printer fabrics, hot-iron transfers and freezer and  >foundation papers and MORE!!! >o; >Place an order by January 15, 2002 and write OFFER in the oE >Additional Information box.  We'll deduct 20% from your first order.y >t% >See our entire online catalog here: o4 >http://www.vintagevogue.com/onlinestore/catalog.htm >m< >Contact Janet Stauffacher at mailto:janet@vintagevogue.com 3 >Visit Vintage Vogue at http://www.vintagevogue.com: >hE >This is a one-time mailing to you.  To be added to our mailing list  7 >to receive future updates about our website click here 0 >mailto:janet@vintagevogue.com?subject=Subscribe >rE >-----------------------------Disclaimer-----------------------------tD >Under Bill S.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th U.S. Congress this ? >email cannot be considered spam as long as we include Contact - >Information and a Remove Link.oE >-----------------------------Disclaimer------------------------------ >- >-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 13:56:09 +0000r( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>6 Subject: Re: DEClaser 2200 - pickup roller replacement) Message-ID: <3C39A8F9.8F77052F@127.0.0.1>    Steve Reece wrote: > Hiya,MF > Does anyone know the recommended way of replacing the pickup rollers- > (upper and lower trays) in a DEClaser 2200?u  
 HNY Steve!  F What are the rollers made of? Have you tried simply cleaning them with isopropol alcohol?  G I have a fax machine that has paper feed problems that a swift clean of + contaminents and dust on the rollers fixes.s   -- "( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comw   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:19:35 +01002 From: "Robert Boers" <robert.boers@softresint.com> Subject: Re: Emulation...e* Message-ID: <3c39844a$1@news.deckpoint.ch>  F No, you can trap terminal I/O anyway, since each serial line emulationK (including the console) is in fact a telnet session and can be connected tosH a process running on the host instead of a physical terminal or terminal	 emulator.   I F-11 (short for Files-11) is the name of a software tool, an extension ofiL the Windows browser, which allows interactively copying of files to/from theI host system into a VAX disk image or aphysically connected VAX SCSI disk. * The emulator does not stop during copying.  K A read-only version of F-11 (copies only from the VAX image to Windows) cansD be downloaded at: http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/downloads.htm   Robert  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C3613B5.9414DE3C@videotron.ca... > Robert Boers wrote: G > > system). We also provide F-11, an extension of the Windows explorero whichoK > > allows cut and paste both ways between a VAX disk image and the WindowsaE > > environment (while the emulator is running), with implicit formatnH > > conversion. None of these need additional files to be loaded in VMS. >lK > Does this mean that F-11 is a trap that freezes the VMS instance and yourhG > emulator takes control of keyboard/mouse to do its own text selectioni based onK > what is displayed on the screen and then move it to the windows clipboardd ? I > (and on the other direction, simulate keyboard input to VMS to send thee5 > characters that were stored in the windows buffer ?:   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:26:34 +01002 From: "Robert Boers" <robert.boers@softresint.com> Subject: Re: Emulation...a* Message-ID: <3c3985ed$1@news.deckpoint.ch>  H We did receive a mail last year of a person doing this, and it seemed toH work (not very fast I guess). If Windows is properly emulated on the MacG there is no reason why it should not work, at least for PicoVAX and thegL CHARON-VAX demo versions (i.e. the versions not requiring a hardware license key).b  	 -- Roberto  @ "Carl Nelson" <carl.nelson@mcmail.maricopa.edu> wrote in message- news:3C36B69F.C5525F56@mcmail.maricopa.edu...- >0 >r > JF Mezei wrote:W >1 > <snip> >oJ > > Out of curiosity, how does your software differ in philosophy with theJ > > Softwindows that emulates a 486 with Windows-95  running on a power-pc > > Macintosh ?  >e > <end_snip> >rK >   That brings up a question that's been rattling around in the back of myf
 head for a > while. >tH >   I don't use softwindows, but I do use VirtualPC from Connectix (sp?)
 Corp on myJ > Macintosh. I like it, it's fun to use to torture windows and linux with. What I liketL > most is that a restore to a un-munged up system disk is a click and a drag and onlyI > takes about thirty seconds. I can run through several dozen potentiallyh	 cripplingtJ > configuration changes in the time that *one* rebuild of a "real" windows system disk - > would take. Now on to my *real* question...q >tH >   Could I run Charon-VAX on the emulated PC running windows 2000 on my Macintosh? I'mL > not asking about performance, which will probably be truly unamazing. Just if it'srH > possible. I like the idea of opening my laptop Mac, booting windows in emulation, thenn8 > booting VMS. Watching my boss's head start spinning... >  > Couldn't resist. >  > --Carl >C >a   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 09:08:15 -0600i- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: Emulation...b3 Message-ID: <ZkNzxbi9GEFJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>E  i In article <3C36B69F.C5525F56@mcmail.maricopa.edu>, Carl Nelson <carl.nelson@mcmail.maricopa.edu> writes:  > I >   Could I run Charon-VAX on the emulated PC running windows 2000 on my : > Macintosh? I'mG > not asking about performance, which will probably be truly unamazing.o  B    I was thinking of trying it on my VAX after I get the Bochs x86@    emulator going.  And trying the Bochs x86 on my Pentium underD    Pico-VAX.  But for now it's much more interesting to see if I can    VEST flight simulator.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 08:30:53 -0500. From: gce <ge@gce.com>/ Subject: re: Exabyte 8200/8500 interoperabilitya' Message-ID: <3C39A30D.68AAC5AA@gce.com>a  L Dig up gkinit.c and .exe on sigtapes from a few years back ('96 or '97 ,mostH likely). This package will write a short 8200 density saveset on an 8500= so you can append more savesets in 8200 density. It was in mya area.  glenn everhart   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:56:50 -05002 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>/ Subject: Have folks seen this from the NY Timesb1 Message-ID: <Npk_7.344$5Y4.8793@news.cpqcorp.net>o  ! Please note the purple highlightsh   -----Original Message-----  $ The New York Times / January 1, 2002  8 2 Computer Giants Hope to Avoid Pitfalls of Past Mergers  
 By STEVE LOHRr  ? In the dry language of business, it does not sound like much -- F ''integration risk.'' But it represents the greatest single doubt thatI surrounds the merger plan of Hewlett-Packard and Compaq Computer, and thea> biggest obstacle to winning shareholder approval for the deal.  K The concern, in simple terms, is this: Big mergers in the computer industry: never seem to work.h  D In declaring their opposition to the merger, the largest in computerL history, the heirs of the Hewlett-Packard founders have repeatedly cited theH daunting integration risks. And in his proxy filing last week, Walter B.L Hewlett said that he believed that mergers involving computing companies hadL consistently destroyed shareholder value and that Hewlett-Packard should not% expose its shareholders to that risk.V  F In fact, one object lesson demonstrating the inevitable failure of bigG computer mergers is the Compaq's own acquisition in 1998 of the Digitaly% Equipment Corporation for $9 billion.c  H But in purely financial terms, the Hewlett-Packard and Compaq managementJ teams can argue that the Digital Equipment deal was a success. A new studyJ done by Salomon Smith Barney -- at the request of Michael D. Capellas, theJ chief executive of Compaq -- concludes that the internal rate of return onI the Digital Equipment acquisition, calculated as after-tax cash flow as aoG percentage of the present value of the deal, is 29 percent. Rates of 16gL percent to 18 percent on corporate investments are generally considered very good.n  G The new study will supply the Hewlett-Packard and Compaq teams a bit of D ammunition as they meet in the next several weeks with institutionalL investors. Still, while the study may modify some views, it will not reverse? the conventional wisdom that the Digital Equipment merger was a  disappointment.t  K The integration of the two companies went slowly, the business bogged down,eL and 15 months after the deal was announced, Eckhard Pfeiffer, Compaq's chief executive, was ousted.  I ''There was a lot of turmoil, and we did not do a good job until CapellashH took over,'' said Benjamin M. Rosen, a co-founder and former chairman of Compaq.e  I Mr. Capellas, 47, is regarded in the industry as an outstanding operatinggK executive, known for his energy, discipline and attention to detail. He hasaJ displayed these traits since his days as a high school student in the OhioJ steel town of Warren, where, though handicapped by being blind in his leftI eye, and not a natural athlete, he became an outstanding football player, 9 winning an athletic scholarship to Kent State University.a  K In Mr. Rosen's view, the Hewlett-Compaq deal is sound strategically, but heiI also says that with the lessons learned from the Digital Equipment mergerdI and with Mr. Capellas as chief operating officer of the combined company, 6 the integration risks should be substantially reduced.  J Mr. Rosen plans to bet millions that he is right. He left the Compaq boardH in 2000, so he no longer reports his holdings. But he said he still heldC most of the 5.7 million Compaq shares disclosed in an earlier proxyo
 statement.  H Mr. Rosen intends to hold onto the Hewlett-Packard shares he receives inI exchange, assuming the deal is completed, because he said a well-executed > merger should be so positive for earnings within a year or so.  L The Digital Equipment experience left Mr. Capellas with the belief that whatJ computer mergers need most are speed and clarity. Mr. Capellas, who joinedJ Compaq as chief information officer in 1998 from Oracle, had been promotedH to chief operating officer by June 1999, when he was placed in change ofH bringing efficiency and coordination to the Compaq and Digital Equipment fiefs.  L At the time, Mr. Capellas recalled, ''The company was decelerating, frankly,I and organized in a matrix structure where no one had accountability.'' HeVJ locked the 10-person senior management team in a conference room for threeG days, with few breaks, to hammer out changes. A disparate collection of2I engineering and product groups was sheared down to four, as unified saleseK teams were assigned to big customers and unallocated costs were cut from 30i percent to 2 percent.2  J Today, 25 percent of Compaq's revenue comes from Digital businesses and 92J percent of its services revenue, or $1.9 billion a quarter, with operatingC profits of 13 percent. With Digital, Compaq also picked up valuable 5 technologies in data storage and systems integration.r  H But while Digital Equipment added new offerings, the merger never reallyF repositioned Compaq as a full-service computer company with a completeF portfolio of products and services for corporate customers. Compaq hasK remained greatly dependent on its personal computer business, and its image1I is still irretrievably that of a personal computer company. That may helpeL explain why the combined company will simply be Hewlett-Packard, jettisoning the PC-tainted Compaq name.<  L The goal behind the Compaq acquisition is to do for Hewlett-Packard what theE Digital purchase failed to do for Compaq itself -- create a computing-I powerhouse more in the I.B.M. mold. But these ambitious combinations haveiF not lived up to their promise in the past, from Sperry and Rand in theL 1950's to Burroughs and Univac in 1986, which made Unisys, which was brieflyI the world's second-largest computer maker after I.B.M. And, once again, a : big deal is being greeted with skepticism in the industry.  H The two leading proponents of the merger -- Mr. Capellas and Carleton S.F Fiorina, the chief executive of Hewlett-Packard -- say that things areH different this time, and so are the two companies involved. The computerJ industry is maturing, they say, so consolidation is needed, as it has beenC in industry after industry over the years from oil and chemicals toe automobiles and banking.  H In addition, they add, Hewlett-Packard and Compaq are a very good fit ofL businesses, overlapping in PC's where rationalization is needed and yet withB little overlap in the business earmarked for growth -- selling bigE computers, storage and services to corporate customers. ''I certainlyL@ wouldn't be interested in any other merger,'' Mr. Capellas said.  L Ms. Fiorina and Mr. Capellas already have joint teams in place, planning theI integration. By the time the deal is completed, they say, the new companysK will have the top three levels of management in place, product road maps inuC hand and sales and service teams assigned for the top 100 corporateaL customers. Mr. Capellas, the operating executive in charge of making the newI Hewlett-Packard work smoothly, sounds confident. ''There is risk in a bigfI merger like this, but also opportunity,'' he said. ''That is why there isc the promise of high returns.''  > Perhaps, but doubts about big mergers in computing remain, andF Hewlett-Packard and Compaq have a considerable challenge in convincingI shareholders that the risk is worth taking this time. In contrast to whatgE happens in slower-moving industries like chemicals or cars, the majorNE product cycles in the computer business are 18 months or less. So theeL merging companies must retain their most skilled people, trim the payroll byI thousands (at least 15,000 employees, Hewlett-Packard has said), and keepr& racing ahead with product development.  D ''Ultimately, the trouble with big computer mergers is the executionH problems that no one has been able to solve in the last 30 years,'' saidL David B. Yoffie, a professor at Harvard Business School. ''This could be the( exception, but no one has done it yet.''   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 11:11:29 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)o3 Subject: Re: Have folks seen this from the NY TimesB3 Message-ID: <8B$42Rd1lTQD@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <Npk_7.344$5Y4.8793@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> writes: > # > Please note the purple highlightst  F Purple is not quote how Usenet news works, but thanks for the article.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:49:15 +0100 (MET)d9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>t! Subject: HELP (DCL) inconsistency-; Message-ID: <01KCSMP2NWO28ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>r  % > > The inconsistant semantics of DCLr > 2 >    Never saw any.  Please feel free to amuse us.  I A bit off-topic, but a pet peeve.  HELP should ALWAYS indicate, for each iE qualifyer, what the default is.  Contrast HELP FORTRAN and HELP CC.  rG HELP FORTRAN is ideal: it gives the defaults right at the beginning in  F the overview.  HELP CC doesn't even always say so when the qualifyers 3 are examined individually (HELP FORTRAN does both).o  H One inconsistency I don't mind is when "Digital" or "DEC" still appears F somewhere.  :-)  Does anyone have a list?  (Or perhaps this should be F suppressed so that more important problems are solved.  :-)  )  IIRC, F the VAX FORTRAN compiler had a patch which did nothing but change the  name to Compaq Fortran.  :-|   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:27:02 -00008 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>% Subject: RE: HELP (DCL) inconsistency N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF19E@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  J >A bit off-topic, but a pet peeve.  HELP should ALWAYS indicate, for each   >qualifyer, what the default is.  J Sometimes it isn't practical to specify a default because (1) there may beI no default or (2) the default value may depend on a number of things e.g.iD presence of other qualifiers, value of other qualifiers, position ofL qualifier in command. I agree that it's good to have consistent HELP formatsK and even saying "default value depends on ... " helps to make things easier 
 for the user.    John    B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKaA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)p   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:18:23 GMTa% From: rw@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) 7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!e0 Message-ID: <3c3991cf.178445555@news.eircom.net>  4 On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 13:57:05 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:  E >This will change when $999 IPF boxes become available down the road.m  B What makes you think this will happen? IPF is big, complicated andF expensive; the only way it'll ever be cheap is if it sells in enormousD volumes, and I'm not clear there's any reason to suppose substantial# numbers of people will ever buy it.h   -- .3 "Pity for the guilty is treachery to the innocent."p mailto:rwallace@esatclear.ie! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallacec   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:42:54 -0800 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> 7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!s+ Message-ID: <3C39DE1E.636ABF72@caltech.edu>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > < > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message  J > > That, and your prediction of a $999 IA64 box are only theories of your! > > interpretation of the future.s > L > Doh, yeah! The future for sure! I wouldn't expect to see the $999 IA64 box+ > for several years, maybe even five years.s  P How about maybe never?  The IA64 is Intel's replacement for the Xeon - when have youo ever seen a Xeon box under 1K$?i   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 18:22:52 -0000n- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)o7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!e7 Message-ID: <918F87BF5warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>r  < rw@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) wrote in <3c3991cf.178445555 @news.eircom.net>:  5 >On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 13:57:05 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"h# ><terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:n > F >>This will change when $999 IPF boxes become available down the road. >aC >What makes you think this will happen? IPF is big, complicated andhG >expensive; the only way it'll ever be cheap is if it sells in enormouseE >volumes, and I'm not clear there's any reason to suppose substantialy$ >numbers of people will ever buy it. >   L Don't forget Microsoft's proven talent at forcing migration through API and K feature manipulation.  The anti-trust judgement against MS goes into quite g( some detail of how they accomplish this.   ws   --     Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)  The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 07:42:14 GMTr From: berdpee@ami.com.au: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <3c3950a4.5691771@news.ami.com.au>   Sad fact of life Ben Old Boy!n  B They don't breed gingerbeers like they did at DEC back in the 60s.  > The world has lost out on so much fine engineering in the lastC 100years it is a tragedy. The blame lies fairly and squarely at thei& feet of the PAPER SHUFFLING PARASITES.  0 On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 18:40:02 -0700, Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:i   >berdpee@ami.com.au wrote: >> rF >> Have you tried CDs, my friend formats the re-writable ones and uses >> them as 650Mb floppies. >e3 >I have a CD-ROM drive that does not boot from DOS! : >And you can't boot from a 100 meg ZIP drive. Has not thisA >generation of computer wennies err OS writers and chip designers  >heard of bootstraps?  >  >-- & >Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *, >www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html   aeolus   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 07:45:14 GMTa From: berdpee@ami.com.au: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <3c3951ab.5955523@news.ami.com.au>   RULE #1.  F If you can't make a meaningful contribute to the topic  throw in a RED	 HERRING. t    0 On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 11:03:22 -0700, Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:t   >Michael Zarlenga wrote: >>  > >> In comp.os.vms Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:@ >> :> Emacs has built-in version control.  You can keep M oldestE >> :> versions and N newest versions - while allowing Emacs to remove" >> :> the ones in-between. >> aG >> :       Yep... with vi , you have power vi users that wouldn't touchhH >> :       Emacs with a ten foot pole.  Don't know about noclobber as it >> rA >> I have never met ANYONE who is even half as proficient with vi A >> as a six-month experienced user is with Emacs!  Once a vi user > >> sees Emacs in action, they're usually sold on its features. >> i@ >> The ability to tag functions, structures, etc in modules of aC >> very complex software package and effortlessly hop from functionhC >> to function and module to module with a few keystrokes is a realsA >> time saver, as are the commands for locating matching "{"s and6 >> "("s. >> cB >Well I was never sold on Emacs or VI. Both seem to be prehistoric? >in many things and too bloated for general use.For some reason > >I still like to boot and run OS's off floppies not a huge HD. >-- & >Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *, >www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html   aeolus   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 07:54:58 GMTy- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)m: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-HdFr8yEpXXqB@localhost>   C On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 23:28:03, Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> 8 wrote:   > Tim Shoppa wrote:sD > > Of course, we're all computing professionals and none of us have2 > > ever made a mistake typing a command line :-). > 3 >  <point> <click> <click> <point> <point> <click>  " >  ... uhh whats a comand line  :) >   F Point/click taken, however,  I hope you're not trying to imply you canF _not_ make equally destructive mistakes with drag/drop and point/click :-)s   -- s Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  " Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:59:31 GMT3 From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <ur8p2zj4s.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>  B >>>>> On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 04:59:13 GMT, robert  ("robert") writes:D  >> Of course, we're all computing professionals and none of us have2  >> ever made a mistake typing a command line :-).S  robert> UNIX was developed from the premise of "the user *knows* what he's doing".aP  robert> and geerally makes no attempt to second-guess what the user 'intended'.  B This is what all experienced users want, but above all, the systemE should be forgiving, most mistakes should not be fatal, and it shouldeF not be so poorly designed that it's just a wasteland of land mines and	 tar pits.c  F For just one example: deleting a file should be a decision that can beB (guaranteed) reviewed and rescinded after the fact, or at least it@ should not be easy to accidently wildcard delete a lot of files.@ It should also be configurable so that different users  can haveH different levels of protection from doing things that might be mistakes.  C Um, isn't this all stuff that everybody learned about in the 1970s?i   ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 02 10:16:17 GMTa From: jmfbahciv@aol.coma: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1c410$rie$1@bob.news.rcn.net>e  , In article <3C38DD83.E7247B01@jetnet.ab.ca>,/    Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:  >Tim Shoppa wrote:C >> Of course, we're all computing professionals and none of us haveu1 >> ever made a mistake typing a command line :-).h >r2 > <point> <click> <click> <point> <point> <click> ! > ... uhh whats a comand line  :)e >v( ROTFLMAO.  Oh, my.  That was a good one.  < Now, for all of these posters who have been wiping out their. files because the command was bassackwards....  9 I run DOS.  I have an arrow penciled on my terminal ---->l= to insert a finger check and remind me which way DOS blows.  v 11s were that way, too.D   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 02 10:21:23 GMTo From: jmfbahciv@aol.com : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1c4aj$rie$2@bob.news.rcn.net>t  3 In article <slrna3ho17.ag8.rivie@cougar.no.domain>,o     rivie@cougar.no.domain wrote: >Robert@bonomi.invalid wrote:aG >> If one has a -recurring- need to mass-rename by arbitrary extension,sE >> then creating the following routine *once*  provides the requisitee >> functionality:  >>   >>            #!/bin/csh >> s" >>            foreach file ( *$1 )/ >>               mv $file `basename $file $1`$2c >>            endd > D >Until it runs into a filename with a space in it or one that startsC >with '-'. Happens to me all the time, although it seems to be muchiI >worse on systems which are acting as file servers for Mac folks (there's,? >one fellow in the office who insists on making frequently usedlH >directories sort to the top of the directory list by tossing a space on >the front of the filename).  ; He should have his fingers duct taped to the outside of thenB building.  Anybody who uses a non-printing character in a filename: should be ...I can't think of a fate that is bad enough.     >dD >I'm probably simply dense, but I've never found a reasonable way of2 >dealing with filenames that have spaces in Unix.   ( Good.  That just means that you're sane.   > ..Just when I think I'veC >got it figured out, something will break. I've not found a quotingfH >scheme that works in all situations; put quotes around it or escape theH >space and you're only fine until you pass it into a script which passes- >it along in the manner of the above snippet.q  = If it were my system, all files would be renamed to have onlyt< letters and numbers.  And I'd have a self-limit of 6.3 field9 lengths.  Some days, even 9 characters were too much for   people who had NIH syndrome.   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 13:47:34 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>o: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C3998E6.35045D46@aaa.com>p  : Hm, I once knew a secretary that sad that she *never ever*9 made any spelling errors, sometimes one or a few *typing*b& errors, bit never did she spell wrong.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.o     jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >  > >Tim Shoppa wrote:E > >> Of course, we're all computing professionals and none of us have 3 > >> ever made a mistake typing a command line :-).    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 08:41:34 -0600i- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <xOsfZNG8jDxz@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  a In article <u3gss5eorfase2@corp.supernews.com>, Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:e= > In comp.os.vms Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:  > :>    3) rename/log t.t t.w.tyR > :>    %RENAME-I-RENAMED, USER1:[KOEHLER]t.t;1 renamed to USER1:[KOEHLER]t^.w.t;1M > :>    ^ is the escape character which the file system uses to show that the J > :>    first . is not the name.extension separator, but you don't have to7 > :>    enter it when you're handling the file by name.t > I > : Strike three.  There's this random ^ character inserted in the outputt	 > : name.  >  > What *is* the ^ doing there?  ,    1)  I just told you what it's doing there  F    2)  It is not random.  Unlike you're favorite shell's behaviour the;       behaviour of the VMS file system is fully documented.n  2    3)  As I said, you can ignore it, so who cares?   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 08:42:27 -0600s- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <xS8Q599a5KBJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  T In article <WJ%Z7.1023$Pe5.182304@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:  # > The inconsistant semantics of DCLl  0    Never saw any.  Please feel free to amuse us.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 08:46:16 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)z: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <NZdzGylu+8Yv@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  _ In article <sb5_7.1052$Pe5.187106@news1.iquest.net>, "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net> writes:'  A > There are often exceptions to the rules, but one cannot protectn( > users from self-destructive behavior.   I    No, but you CAN create a human interface designed to deal with humans.h  E    Now you're all reminding me of the time one of our C++ programmersd5    created a file called *.C and wanted to delete it.r  C    Fortuneatly he did nothing himself.  I told him coming to see mei6    about it was the smartest thing he'd do that month.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 08:48:03 -0600y- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <Fs8N42DvlVjf@eisner.encompasserve.org>q  R In article <slrna3ho17.ag8.rivie@cougar.no.domain>, rivie@cougar.no.domain writes:  E > I'm probably simply dense, but I've never found a reasonable way ofiI > dealing with filenames that have spaces in Unix. Just when I think I'ver, > got it figured out, something will break.   >    Same here, I've got several ksh scripts that take file nameB    parameters, but no matter how much I quote the original I can't2    get past the spaces in all my Mac folder names.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 08:51:03 -0600e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <vagiw+$IMoYd@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  d In article <ur8p2zj4s.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>, Christopher Stacy <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US> writes:  E > Um, isn't this all stuff that everybody learned about in the 1970s?   F    Nobody outside of AT&T and Berkley was doing much UNIX in the 70's.F    So it didn't get a chance to grow up in the real world, it was justF    dumped on us all as is by hardware vendors who didn't want to write	    an OS.e   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 09:12:50 -0600-- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <jlsPYoG9It3l@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  i In article <CjkZ7.289$5Y4.6430@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: I > This works on COE, and I know on the next V7.3 based release.  We fixedo# > (finished) a lot of this for COE.W >   > $ set proc/case=sens/parse=ext > $ cre bar.foo.me.too > ^Z* > $ rename bar.foo.me.too bar.foo.me.three > $ diri >   > Directory DKA100:[SYS0.SYSMGR] >  > bar^.foo^.me.too;1 >  > Total of 1 file.      I sure hope that's a typo.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 09:17:12 -0600e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <g05LWpGurnBQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  n In article <u3vlVGIAntHR@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.524703.killspam.00bd (Wayne Sewell) writes:  M > Will you guys who insist on bashing vms in a vms group at least look at thenO > current version before spouting?  That limitation was so many versions and sou; > many years ago that I can't remember how far back it was.4      VMS 4.0 was the first 39.39.1   ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 02 13:30:39 GMTL From: jmfbahciv@aol.com : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1cfdd$9mi$1@bob.news.rcn.net>a  ' In article <3C3998E6.35045D46@aaa.com>,a=    Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> wrote:e; >Hm, I once knew a secretary that sad that she *never ever*a: >made any spelling errors, sometimes one or a few *typing*' >errors, bit never did she spell wrong.   @ Before I got this disease, I didn't make spelling errors either.B When I typed on an ASR36, I didn't make long-lasting typos because@ I could "hear" when I made one.  When I heard one I'd then do a = <rubout> without looking at the paper.  Today's keyboards are  clicks all alike.-   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 15:38:28 GMT ( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a1cfdk$2v31$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  0 In article <3C38940F.D08697F@trailing-edge.com>,- Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:m >  tar cvf *.c > . >and find their first source file is now gone.  E This kind of thing is due to programs not using O_EXCL on destructive,F operations. I will grant that O_EXCL should be the default, but that's a separate issue.u   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 15:46:08 GMTh( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a1cfs0$2vdv$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  M In article <slrna3ho17.ag8.rivie@cougar.no.domain>,  <ivie@cc.usu.edu> wrote:tD >I'm probably simply dense, but I've never found a reasonable way of1 >dealing with filenames that have spaces in Unix.e  H The bourne shell will do the right thing with them if you are moderatelyG careful. Scripts written by stupid programmers are, of course, an issue I that you have to deal with. Being root helps, and Open Source ones can be, fixed permanently.   -- l@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 15:49:41 GMT4( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a1cg2l$2vn2$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  3 In article <Fs8N42DvlVjf@eisner.encompasserve.org>,h. Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:? >   Same here, I've got several ksh scripts that take file name C >   parameters, but no matter how much I quote the original I can'ti3 >   get past the spaces in all my Mac folder names.r  0 Either take your arguments one by one like this:   while [ ".$1" != "."]  do   frob "$1"t   shiftt done   Or use this trick:   for i in ${1+"$@"} do   frob "$i"i done  J I tend to use the first if I'm going to be parsing multi-word options, and the latter otherwise.    --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)*   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:07:06 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>j: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <_Bj_7.1131$Pe5.194298@news1.iquest.net>  h "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:xS8Q599a5KBJ@eisner.encompasserve.org...V > In article <WJ%Z7.1023$Pe5.182304@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: > % > > The inconsistant semantics of DCLh > 2 >    Never saw any.  Please feel free to amuse us. > 	 Simple...    RENAME *.c *.x  = When renaming '*.c' to '*.x', the first '*.c' means somethingH< very different from '*.x' (not just in the sense of the name5 of the 'extension' (geesh, I hate that notion also.))d  9 I used to like the 'DEC' CLI approach, writing my own DCLa: on RSX11M before it was commonly available.   After seeing6 the 'modal' inconsistancy, it became obviously clunky.  0 Luckily, massive renames aren't that common, and= very convienient availability of subdirectories can sometimes : be an equivalent tool (along with RCS) for version control or file segregation.  ; When massive renames are needed, then the scripting schemes ) can be used convieniently as subroutines.@   John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:08:10 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>t: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <ZCj_7.1132$Pe5.194153@news1.iquest.net>  h "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:Fs8N42DvlVjf@eisner.encompasserve.org...T > In article <slrna3ho17.ag8.rivie@cougar.no.domain>, rivie@cougar.no.domain writes: > G > > I'm probably simply dense, but I've never found a reasonable way of K > > dealing with filenames that have spaces in Unix. Just when I think I'veo. > > got it figured out, something will break.  > @ >    Same here, I've got several ksh scripts that take file nameD >    parameters, but no matter how much I quote the original I can't4 >    get past the spaces in all my Mac folder names. > K Hmmm...  I haven't run into a situation that I couldn't handle like that...>   John   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:03:06 GMTn2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C39C5DC.B4E77ED0@bartek.dontspamme.net>m   Bob Koehler wrote: > T > In article <slrna3ho17.ag8.rivie@cougar.no.domain>, rivie@cougar.no.domain writes: > G > > I'm probably simply dense, but I've never found a reasonable way of K > > dealing with filenames that have spaces in Unix. Just when I think I'vel- > > got it figured out, something will break.  > @ >    Same here, I've got several ksh scripts that take file nameD >    parameters, but no matter how much I quote the original I can't4 >    get past the spaces in all my Mac folder names.   You're not trying hard enough.   aakr   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:21:57 -0000e/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u3jip5bi7aao76@corp.supernews.com>   ; In comp.os.vms Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:w> : A few (but not all) modern C compiler drivers do look at the) : command line to prevent you from typingd   :   cc -o source.c -lm   : when you really meant-  ! :   cc -o executable source.c -lm7  ? : So the Unix user is stuck in this strange no-man's-land wherenC : some programs do look at the command line to prevent stupid users B : from clobbering input files just because the argument was in theC : wrong place, and other programs go ahead and do clobber the file.e  ( Just as most VMS uses (that I know) have  & $ CC :== CC/DECC/STANDARD=PORTABLE/...  ; Most Unix uses (that I know) have an alias for cc that just ? takes the module name (minus the .c) and/or they use makefiles.    -- m -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:33:12 -0000a/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u3jje8klk4s09f@corp.supernews.com>s  6 In comp.os.vms John S. Dyson <dyson@iquest.net> wrote:C : One nice thing that has happened in NT recently is the ability to > : mount filesystems below the root, so that everything is more  9 Ah!  You reminded me of ANOTHER thing I really like aboutb8 Unix ... the ability to reference the base of the entire disk tree with "/".   9 I've written VMS .COMs to search all disks for a file buta< you have to fist find all the mounted disk devices and then,* one by  one, look for the file(s) on them.   --   -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:45:18 +0100 (MET)a9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>7: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC; Message-ID: <01KCSQUPDEAI8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>n  ; > Ah!  You reminded me of ANOTHER thing I really like aboutp: > Unix ... the ability to reference the base of the entire > disk tree with "/".    What about rm -rf /*   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:10:54 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <Oxk_7.1137$Pe5.194901@news1.iquest.net>  h "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:NZdzGylu+8Yv@eisner.encompasserve.org...a > In article <sb5_7.1052$Pe5.187106@news1.iquest.net>, "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net> writes:2 > C > > There are often exceptions to the rules, but one cannot protecte* > > users from self-destructive behavior.  > K >    No, but you CAN create a human interface designed to deal with humans.> > G >    Now you're all reminding me of the time one of our C++ programmersn7 >    created a file called *.C and wanted to delete it.n > Q I created files like that under TOPS10 also :-).   It is no problem to do so :-).t   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:35:30 -0000)/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>c: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u3jn32nfj8mqf4@corp.supernews.com>p  = In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote: 4 :    3)  As I said, you can ignore it, so who cares?   My code may care.o   -- e -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:38:10 -0000 / From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u3jn82lkn2cn71@corp.supernews.com>n  = In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:e$ :> The inconsistant semantics of DCL  2 :    Never saw any.  Please feel free to amuse us.  : The trailing ' for symbol evaluation is not necessary when whitespace follows the symbol.  0 The evaluation of symbols in comments means that $! 'f$verify(1)' w will turn verify on.  ( Documented or not, this is inconsistent.   -- s -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 11:48:21 -0600o- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <vnHrpuctixZZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  T In article <_Bj_7.1131$Pe5.194298@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: > j > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:xS8Q599a5KBJ@eisner.encompasserve.org...W >> In article <WJ%Z7.1023$Pe5.182304@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:= >> h& >> > The inconsistant semantics of DCL >>  3 >>    Never saw any.  Please feel free to amuse us.9 >> 5 > Simple...m >  > RENAME *.c *.x > ? > When renaming '*.c' to '*.x', the first '*.c' means something > > very different from '*.x' (not just in the sense of the name7 > of the 'extension' (geesh, I hate that notion also.))r  ?    Nope, they both mean "wildcard name and specific extension". B    When did you let someone convince you they mean something else?   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 12:05:32 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)v: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <QFaxgika9mio@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  T In article <ZCj_7.1132$Pe5.194153@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: > j > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:Fs8N42DvlVjf@eisner.encompasserve.org...U >> In article <slrna3ho17.ag8.rivie@cougar.no.domain>, rivie@cougar.no.domain writes:[ >> EH >> > I'm probably simply dense, but I've never found a reasonable way ofL >> > dealing with filenames that have spaces in Unix. Just when I think I've/ >> > got it figured out, something will break. l >> hA >>    Same here, I've got several ksh scripts that take file nameaE >>    parameters, but no matter how much I quote the original I can'th5 >>    get past the spaces in all my Mac folder names.  >>  M > Hmmm...  I haven't run into a situation that I couldn't handle like that...u  C    Then maybe you know something I don't.  I've got this little ksh C    function which emulates some features of DCL copy that the shelleB    won't do for me on one line.  But I can't "copy a\ a.c b", and F    I've tried all kinds of escape and quotes with the file name a\ a.c  
 function copy9 {B%    i=`echo $1 | awk -F. '{print $2}'`c%    j=`echo $2 | awk -F. '{print $2}'`n%    k=`echo $2 | awk -F. '{print $1}'`       if [ "$j" = "" ]n    thenC       to=$k.$i    elseP       to=$2e    fiu      cp $1 $to }-          -   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:13:16 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>:: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <gsl_7.1143$Pe5.195327@news1.iquest.net>  h "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:vnHrpuctixZZ@eisner.encompasserve.org...V > In article <_Bj_7.1131$Pe5.194298@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: > > > > > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:xS8Q599a5KBJ@eisner.encompasserve.org... Y > >> In article <WJ%Z7.1023$Pe5.182304@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:r > >>( > >> > The inconsistant semantics of DCL > >>5 > >>    Never saw any.  Please feel free to amuse us.h > >>
 > > Simple...  > >- > > RENAME *.c *.x > > A > > When renaming '*.c' to '*.x', the first '*.c' means something @ > > very different from '*.x' (not just in the sense of the name9 > > of the 'extension' (geesh, I hate that notion also.))g > A >    Nope, they both mean "wildcard name and specific extension".nD >    When did you let someone convince you they mean something else? >eN The second filespec doesn't specify a file, like the first filespec does.  TheK second one represents a group of proposed filenames that are VERY DEPENDENT'" upon the value of the first group.  O Syntatically, it is inconsistent to evaluate the names in that way.   If it wasgK to be done consistantly with a single command, and given the 'wart' concept-@ of a filename extension, the following would be more consistent:   RENAME /NEWEXT:x  *.cj  N I am not sure that would be more desirable, but would be MUCH MORE consistent.   John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:25:03 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>o: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <iDl_7.1144$Pe5.195329@news1.iquest.net>  h "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:QFaxgika9mio@eisner.encompasserve.org...V > In article <ZCj_7.1132$Pe5.194153@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: > > > > > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:Fs8N42DvlVjf@eisner.encompasserve.org...bW > >> In article <slrna3ho17.ag8.rivie@cougar.no.domain>, rivie@cougar.no.domain writes:Y > >>J > >> > I'm probably simply dense, but I've never found a reasonable way ofN > >> > dealing with filenames that have spaces in Unix. Just when I think I've0 > >> > got it figured out, something will break. > >>C > >>    Same here, I've got several ksh scripts that take file namepG > >>    parameters, but no matter how much I quote the original I can't.7 > >>    get past the spaces in all my Mac folder names.  > >>O > > Hmmm...  I haven't run into a situation that I couldn't handle like that...- >-E >    Then maybe you know something I don't.  I've got this little kshhE >    function which emulates some features of DCL copy that the shelloC >    won't do for me on one line.  But I can't "copy a\ a.c b", andrH >    I've tried all kinds of escape and quotes with the file name a\ a.c >xF Take a look at other posts in this thread.   There is a trick that youB can prefix a name with a character or somesuch.   You also have to0 make sure that the 'quotes' propagate correctly.  ? For example, a filename like 'a a.c b' needs to have the quotesb: managed correctly.   I just did a test like the following:   cp foo 'f o.x x' or cp foo "f o.x x"  I For constant values, these quotes are the same.  For shell variables, thee results would be different.e  I and the filename was correctly created.   When scripting, it is importanta9 to quote, and sometimes to use shell variables to contain.J filenames.   When storing a filename into a shell variable, make sure thatG there is a controlled number of quotes (most often, none.)   When usingnE a shell variable, use the appropriate quoting for the entire name, orsG use the appropriate scheme for slicing off the portion of the name thati you are interested in.  ? When doing comparisons, there are also some methods as shown in>E other postings on this thread.   In ksh (or other normal shells), theeD difference between '', "" and other kinds of quoting need to be well understood.-   John   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 12:20:06 -0600v- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <P79ej+7UHB$G@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  a In article <u3jje8klk4s09f@corp.supernews.com>, Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:e8 > In comp.os.vms John S. Dyson <dyson@iquest.net> wrote:E > : One nice thing that has happened in NT recently is the ability toL@ > : mount filesystems below the root, so that everything is more > ; > Ah!  You reminded me of ANOTHER thing I really like about : > Unix ... the ability to reference the base of the entire > disk tree with "/".  > ; > I've written VMS .COMs to search all disks for a file but > > you have to fist find all the mounted disk devices and then,, > one by  one, look for the file(s) on them.  H    I never did care for only having one directory tree, and neither does    VMS.o  E    I always set up a system table logical that is the search list for C    all disks.  So you just search all disks with it all_disk:[*...]   B    The current C porting library will let file searching look like    all disks hang off /.  L    The POSIX kit made you have one tree, and COE will let you have one tree.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 12:21:30 -0600u- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <jeftVvoEfqfh@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  a In article <u3jn32nfj8mqf4@corp.supernews.com>, Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes: ? > In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:j6 > :    3)  As I said, you can ignore it, so who cares? >  > My code may care.1  H    Your code may not be well written.  I've got tons of code, my own andD    various other contributors, none of which cares.  We just let VMS3    do the file name parsing,m it knows what's what.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 12:22:50 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <aa1+ufnE5wVP@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <u3jn82lkn2cn71@corp.supernews.com>, Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:g? > In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote: & > :> The inconsistant semantics of DCL > 4 > :    Never saw any.  Please feel free to amuse us. > < > The trailing ' for symbol evaluation is not necessary when  > whitespace follows the symbol. > 2 > The evaluation of symbols in comments means that > $! 'f$verify(1)' s > will turn verify on. > * > Documented or not, this is inconsistent.  F    This is a bug that never needed fixing.  Don't give us an inch intoD    which we open miles of OS bugs, you're favorite OS might not look    so good..   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 12:28:00 -0600j- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)m: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <dye7SH1FJ3w3@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  T In article <iDl_7.1144$Pe5.195329@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:  H > Take a look at other posts in this thread.   There is a trick that youD > can prefix a name with a character or somesuch.   You also have to2 > make sure that the 'quotes' propagate correctly.   > A > For example, a filename like 'a a.c b' needs to have the quotesk< > managed correctly.   I just did a test like the following: >  > cp foo 'f o.x x' > or > cp foo "f o.x x"  E    Using my script, all the following fail to pass properly to the cpt    command:m      copy a\ a.c b    copy 'a a.c' bi    copy "a a.c" b     copy 'a\ a.c' b    copy "a\ a.c" b    copy "'a\ a.c'" b  G    In think I can overcome that by modifying the script, which you seemoG    to imply (I don't claim the script is perfect), but I can't overcomeCB    the problem with passing the spaces in the name no matter how I     quote it, which was my point.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 12:34:16 -0600t- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <0wd8uIhJkzae@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  T In article <gsl_7.1143$Pe5.195327@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:  P > The second filespec doesn't specify a file, like the first filespec does.  TheM > second one represents a group of proposed filenames that are VERY DEPENDENTI$ > upon the value of the first group. >   G    The first file name specifies a collection of names, and so does thedB    second.  Just because someone taught you a different view point    doesn't make it so.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:40:36 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>h: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <URl_7.1146$Pe5.195345@news1.iquest.net>  h "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:dye7SH1FJ3w3@eisner.encompasserve.org...V > In article <iDl_7.1144$Pe5.195329@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: > J > > Take a look at other posts in this thread.   There is a trick that youF > > can prefix a name with a character or somesuch.   You also have to4 > > make sure that the 'quotes' propagate correctly. >  > > C > > For example, a filename like 'a a.c b' needs to have the quotese> > > managed correctly.   I just did a test like the following: > >  > > cp foo 'f o.x x' > > or > > cp foo "f o.x x" > G >    Using my script, all the following fail to pass properly to the cpt
 >    command:D > M Okay, I didn't realize that your question wasn't rhetorical!!!   I PROMISE tosK look at the problem in a few hours (hopefully before 20:00 EST.)   My Mom'svC husband is coming back from dialysis, and I promised to be there at H 14:00 EST (she is out of town.)   I'll try to come up with a REAL answerI for the problem that you posed!!!  I might only have to stay with him forr< a short while, and might answer sooner than my promise-time.  D Sorry for the assumption that your question was rhetorical.   I WILLF look at it later this afternoon!!!   (Rhetorical discussion is easy to confuse with honest query :-)).a  J Sorry for my misreading your question, but will help soon.  (My net accessI is nailed up, and I don't have convienient net access at my Mom's place.)e   John   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 18:35:56 GMT- From: robert@bonomi.invalida: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <gUl_7.762$Kf.13753@ord-read.news.verio.net>  . In article <ur8p2zj4s.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>,5 Christopher Stacy  <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US> wrote:qC >>>>>> On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 04:59:13 GMT, robert  ("robert") writes:sE > >> Of course, we're all computing professionals and none of us haveg3 > >> ever made a mistake typing a command line :-).eG > robert> UNIX was developed from the premise of "the user *knows* whate
 >he's doing".hQ > robert> and geerally makes no attempt to second-guess what the user 'intended'.i >fC >This is what all experienced users want, but above all, the system F >should be forgiving, most mistakes should not be fatal, and it shouldG >not be so poorly designed that it's just a wasteland of land mines andg
 >tar pits. >vG >For just one example: deleting a file should be a decision that can benC >(guaranteed) reviewed and rescinded after the fact, or at least itnA >should not be easy to accidently wildcard delete a lot of files. A >It should also be configurable so that different users  can haveeI >different levels of protection from doing things that might be mistakes.a > D >Um, isn't this all stuff that everybody learned about in the 1970s?  C OH! I get it.  he thinks rm(1) should have an 'interactive' option.75 And mabe somebody should add an '-ok' option to find.eC And 'noclobber' to the shell, to prevent accidental over-writing ofo) existing files due to output redirection.P    D For a *regular* (in the sense of 'frequent') user of any environmentB it makes absolutely -zero- difference whether the 'default' for a B confirmation is 'on' or 'off'.   If it is an opertion they performC frequently, they will omit the 'ask for confirmation', or _add_ the C 'dont ask me' option, as an 'automatic' part of using that command.n  D When people come to have an expectation that the system "will" catchL their (stupid, or otherwise) mistakes, they inevetiably end up disappointed.G They make a 'sufficiently creative' mistake, that the system does *not* E catch, and then blame the system for -not- catching it.  And there ishE *NO*WAY* of telling where that 'boundary' is, untill _after_ you havefI crossed it.   "For *every* fool-proof system, there exists a sufficiently.' determined fool capable of breaking it"   E A system that always does "_exactly_ what you told it to" is far more G _consistant_, and _predictable_ than one that tries to second-guess for B 'is this reasonable, or is it a probable/likely/possible mistake'.  D In human-factors studies, 'predictability' has been found to be the D most important single factor in differentiating a good design from a bad one.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 18:53:58 GMTs From: robert@bonomi.invalidh: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <a9m_7.764$Kf.13708@ord-read.news.verio.net>  3 In article <0wd8uIhJkzae@eisner.encompasserve.org>,e. Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:: >In article <gsl_7.1143$Pe5.195327@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" ><dyson@jdyson.com> writes:8 > Q >> The second filespec doesn't specify a file, like the first filespec does.  ThedN >> second one represents a group of proposed filenames that are VERY DEPENDENT% >> upon the value of the first group.9 >> s >qH >   The first file name specifies a collection of names, and so does theC >   second.  Just because someone taught you a different view pointe >   doesn't make it so.  >%   Consider the two statements:             copy *.x *.y           copy *.c *.x  D does "*.x" mean the _same_thing_ in both situations?  i.e., does it * ALWAYS expand to the *same* list of names?  I does the language allow two specifications on a "file delete" opertation?nD i.e., can you "delete  foo  bar"?  if so, consider the following two statements:t  
 	copy *.c *.xe         delete *.c *.x  D does "*.x" mean the _same_thing_ in both situations?  i.e., does it * ALWAYS expand to the *same* list of names?    I If the answers are 'yes', then the semantics of "wildcard expansion" are 0I consistent.  Otherwise, the semantics *are* "context dependant", and you :H have *NO*IDEA* what the behavior will be in an _unfamiliar_ context.  ItH may be possible to 'guess' with a high degree of accuracy, but you don'tH *KNOW* without checking the reference for that specific context, or "try it and find out".    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:22:25 -00008 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Hobbyist licenses.mN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF199@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  F Hobbyist licences ought to involve a one-off payment. There are enough? challenges in the hobbyist world without having the overhead ofvF annual/repeat licence payments and software failing beyond the licence termination dates. o   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKdA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)t   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:32:42 +0100 (MET)y9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>n Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses. ; Message-ID: <01KCSFX66HSQ8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>c  H > Hobbyist licences ought to involve a one-off payment. There are enoughA > challenges in the hobbyist world without having the overhead of H > annual/repeat licence payments and software failing beyond the licence > termination dates.    1 What is the justification for the one-year limit?a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 13:35:32 +0100:9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>- Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.i' Message-ID: <3C399614.528325EB@aaa.com>m  5 What is the problem with re-ordering and re-executingn" the DCL command file once a year ?  8 What payments are you talking about (with regards to the< VMS Hobbyist license) There are no payments involved, AFAIK.  A Do you think that the records of ordered hobbyist licenses should  just grow indefinitly ?$  < The only thing I could ask for, is that the Montagar routine> also included LICENSE DELETE commands in there script, to makeD it easier to re-load them. Or maybe you don't have to DELETE the old& licenses before loading the new ones ?  B What are you running on your *hobbyist* system, where it's realy aC problem if it fails once a year ? (Well, if you *don't* reload youre licenses in time !)    Jan-Erik Sderholm.    John Macallister wrote:  > H > Hobbyist licences ought to involve a one-off payment. There are enoughA > challenges in the hobbyist world without having the overhead ofpH > annual/repeat licence payments and software failing beyond the licence > termination dates. >  > John > D > Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk? > Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK C > Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:46:23 -00008 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Hobbyist licenses.ON Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF19D@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  B If there are no payments involved what's the point of having any = terminationoH date and regular renewal of licences? Extra work for no benefit at all = ..   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK4A Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)B     -----Original Message-----/ From: Jan-Erik S=F6derholm [mailto:aaa@aaa.com]r' Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 12:36 PMs To: John Macallister Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.d    5 What is the problem with re-ordering and re-executing " the DCL command file once a year ?  8 What payments are you talking about (with regards to the< VMS Hobbyist license) There are no payments involved, AFAIK.  A Do you think that the records of ordered hobbyist licenses shouldt just grow indefinitly ?a  < The only thing I could ask for, is that the Montagar routine> also included LICENSE DELETE commands in there script, to makeD it easier to re-load them. Or maybe you don't have to DELETE the old& licenses before loading the new ones ?  B What are you running on your *hobbyist* system, where it's realy aC problem if it fails once a year ? (Well, if you *don't* reload youre licenses in time !)c   Jan-Erik S=F6derholm.r   John Macallister wrote:  >=20C > Hobbyist licences ought to involve a one-off payment. There are =s enoughA > challenges in the hobbyist world without having the overhead ofaB > annual/repeat licence payments and software failing beyond the = licence  > termination dates. >=20 > John >=20D > Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk? > Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK C > Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 14:07:16 +0100c9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>o Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses. ' Message-ID: <3C399D84.A69947D3@aaa.com>e  ; Well, if renewing the licenses once a year is what's needede* to get them for free, that's OK with me...  ; And there *is* a benefit to have them renewed, just not for  you and me :-)  	 Jan-Erik.r   John Macallister wrote:o > N > If there are no payments involved what's the point of having any terminationK > date and regular renewal of licences? Extra work for no benefit at all ..    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 08:30:49 -0600e- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)- Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.-3 Message-ID: <ARWdRGmU43Er@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  w In article <01KCSFX66HSQ8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:$I >> Hobbyist licences ought to involve a one-off payment. There are enoughoB >> challenges in the hobbyist world without having the overhead ofI >> annual/repeat licence payments and software failing beyond the licencea >> termination dates.  > 3 > What is the justification for the one-year limit?o  
 I believe it:i  < 	Reduces the likelihood that people would misuse the license 	for business purposes.a  @ 	Allows Compaq to drop the program if they choose in the future.  0 	Provides ongoing statistics regarding interest.  $ I have no idea what Compaq believes.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 08:35:18 -0600e- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)v Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.e3 Message-ID: <i$vvEV5xZWQO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <3C399614.528325EB@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:.7 > What is the problem with re-ordering and re-executingc$ > the DCL command file once a year ? > : > What payments are you talking about (with regards to the> > VMS Hobbyist license) There are no payments involved, AFAIK. > C > Do you think that the records of ordered hobbyist licenses should  > just grow indefinitly ?d > > > The only thing I could ask for, is that the Montagar routine8 > also included LICENSE DELETE commands in there script,  @ Be careful what you ask for.  The CSA license command procedures= include a LICENSE DISABLE command, but they don't specify the > Authorization Numbers for each product from the previous year,? and instead disable _all_ licenses for that product, regardlesso. of whether they have termination dates or not.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:51:14 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>  Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses. ' Message-ID: <3C39B5E2.10415ED2@aaa.com>l   OK.u8 I can create the delete script from the current REGISTER& script with a few lines of DCL anyway.  	 Jan-Erik.    Larry Kilgallen wrote: >  > B > Be careful what you ask for.  The CSA license command procedures? > include a LICENSE DISABLE command, but they don't specify the @ > Authorization Numbers for each product from the previous year,A > and instead disable _all_ licenses for that product, regardlessl0 > of whether they have termination dates or not.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:14:13 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.t6 Message-ID: <1020107130310.56656A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  F On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Jan-Erik =3D?iso-8859-1?Q?S=3DF6derholm?=3D wrote:  7 > What is the problem with re-ordering and re-executing-$ > the DCL command file once a year ? >=20: > What payments are you talking about (with regards to the> > VMS Hobbyist license) There are no payments involved, AFAIK. >=20C > Do you think that the records of ordered hobbyist licenses should1 > just grow indefinitly ?n >=20> > The only thing I could ask for, is that the Montagar routine@ > also included LICENSE DELETE commands in there script, to makeF > it easier to re-load them. Or maybe you don't have to DELETE the old( > licenses before loading the new ones ?  I You don't need to delete the old licenses before installing the new ones.l  G However, they will eventually load the LDB with lots of cruft, which=20 G supposedly reduces performance.  It also makes it harder to see exactlyo what you have licensed.a  A I keep around the old license installation command file, and mungc@ it with TECO to change the adds to deletes and remove everythingB except the license name and authorization.  @ the munged .com fileC and they're all gone.  Same applies to ASAP/CSA licenses, which arem also annual.   >=20D > What are you running on your *hobbyist* system, where it's realy aE > problem if it fails once a year ? (Well, if you *don't* reload your4 > licenses in time !)e >n > Jan-Erik S=F6derholm.l >=20 > John Macallister wrote:d > >=20J > > Hobbyist licences ought to involve a one-off payment. There are enoughC > > challenges in the hobbyist world without having the overhead ofjJ > > annual/repeat licence payments and software failing beyond the licence > > termination dates. > >=20 > > John > >=20F > > Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.ukA > > Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKlE > > Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)u >=20 >=20   --=20i John Santosd Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:50:04 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.ukB Subject: Intel working on 32bit/64bit chip in case Itanium falters+ Message-ID: <a1cqks$ms5$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>e  J There is an interesting article in this weeks IT WEEK in the UK (Page 19 -I Desktops await 64bit apps). Unfortunately I can't find the article on thee Itweek website at present.  J The article is about the future of 64bit desktop systems and contrasts theI gradualist AMD hammer approach against Intel's Itanium approach. However u* there is one very interesting paragraph :-  H "According to reports, Intel itself is also preparing a 32bit/64bit chipI alongside the Itanium architecture,although it refused to comment on this H speculation. It is said that Intel's 32bit chip team is looking at a newI generation of processors with 64bit extensions, to serve as a fallback ifa0 McKinley fails to generate sufficient interest."    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:01:12 +0000 (UTC)1 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@notsohotmail.com>y0 Subject: LIB$INITIALIZE image_info record layout/ Message-ID: <a1ck8n$7n0$1@helle.btinternet.com>i   Hi,   F Does anyone have a copy of the record layout for "image_info" as it is* passed to my image initialization routine?  + (Or a pointer to the docs. I can't find it)!  G There seems to be a bit too much in there for a heuristic mapping. TIA.    Regards Richard Mahero   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 12:35:19 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l4 Subject: Re: LIB$INITIALIZE image_info record layout3 Message-ID: <bmGypC5vqgZf@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  c In article <a1ck8n$7n0$1@helle.btinternet.com>, "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@notsohotmail.com> writes:@ > Hi,d > H > Does anyone have a copy of the record layout for "image_info" as it is, > passed to my image initialization routine?  H    It's in starlet.mlb, but I don't recall seeing it documented anywhere8    outside the fiche.  Not in the internals manual IIRC.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 09:42:34 -0600t From: briggs@encompasserve.org5 Subject: Re: logicals pointing to files opened by DCLe3 Message-ID: <Knr1$d8cB1O9@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  W In article <u3c9mlk6o6td86@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:sL > The RMS IFI is kept in the first longword of the logical name value.  ShowF > logical knows to skip this.  Here's a program that will get the full' > filespec from the IFI in the logical:d [...]  >     **  Translate SYS$OUTPUT& >     **  The format of the result is: >     **     word - length >     **     word - IFIe& >     **     char - device name string  C I'm sure the code is correct.  John Vottero knows his stuff in thisc! regard.  But this comment is not.e  C The first two bytes are not the string length.  They are hard codedl as <ESC><NUL>:  %x1b %x00n  A The next word and the remaining characters are indeed the RMS IFIa and the device name string.   C Interestingly, the device name string has mixed relevance.  For thetE purposes of RMS (e.g. accessing a PPF through $OPEN), the device name D is largely ignored.  The IFI tells RMS which device to use.  For theF purposes of other system calls (e.g. assigning a channel with $ASSIGN)D the 4 byte PPF prefix is ignored and the device name string is used.  C For 99.44% of all practical purposes, this tidbit of information isnH unimportant.  But you can sometimes get a discrepancy between the deviceB pointed to by the IFI and the device pointed to by the device name	 string...c   $ open q lta0: /read $ show log q-    "Q" = "_ALPHA$LTA5221" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)h $ show dev lta5221- %SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device availablet $ show dev lta5222 /fu  J Terminal LTA5222:, device type unknown, is online, record-oriented device,     carriage control.i  O     Error count                    0    Operations completed                  0sO     Owner process           "VAXS09"    Owner UIC                      [VAXS09]eO     Owner process ID        00032083    Dev Prot              S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,WhO     Reference count                1    Default buffer size                  80l  / (That's the device I just successfully opened).s  B A PPF $OPEN on a template device clones the device once to get theC device name string.  And then it clones it again to actually open a- channel to the device.  E It took me quite a bit of head scratching to deduce what was going on:E when I first encountered this behavior.  (I first saw it with TWA0 on7G the original flavor of DEC Windows).  I think I SPR'd it way back when,nD but it's a low enough profile issue that I'm unsurprised to find the behavior unchanged today.9  F With network devices, you may well find that the device name component, of the PPF logical name is entirely missing.   $ open q 0::login.com /reads $ show log q    "Q" = "" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)m   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 12:27:58 -0600+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>a Subject: Multia helpL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E0B1@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  
 Hi everybody.    This last weekend I finally resoldered the power supply connector on my Multia, which I got quite a while ago from Island. (Thanks Dave!)    The machine has no RAM, no floppy (nor cable), and a SCSI riser in the slot.  There is no SCSI plug on the back of the machine.   \ Does anyone have any advice for finding the necessary components to make this a VMS machine?   Regards,   Chris*  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerh Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");e '   n   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:56:24 +0100) From: "Flash" <balzanotogliquesto@iol.it>u Subject: Newbie questions ( Message-ID: <a1c61v$2e1q$1@half.spin.it>   Hi all,   6 I'm a VMS beginner, I hope not to bother you too much.J Last saturday I installed openVMS on a dump saved VAXstation 4000/60 but I< have still two problems (and no documentation to solve them)  H 1) how can I obtain the CPU serial no. to registrer the VMS hobbist kit?L 2) assuming that I installed the DecWindows support and the VAXstation has a9 video card in it how can I start the graphical interface?   ' thank in advance to who wants to answero   Luca   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 14:12:17 +0100v9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>l Subject: Re: Newbie questionst' Message-ID: <3C399EB1.40CB651F@aaa.com>a   Flash wrote: > 	 > Hi all,@ > 8 > I'm a VMS beginner, I hope not to bother you too much.L > Last saturday I installed openVMS on a dump saved VAXstation 4000/60 but I> > have still two problems (and no documentation to solve them) > J > 1) how can I obtain the CPU serial no. to registrer the VMS hobbist kit?  B   Normaly on the back of the box. Something like "AY42015813" (the serialD   on my hobbyist DEC 2000 model 300). *But* you can actualy registerA   whatever you like in the serial number field, if I'm not wrong.w  oN > 2) assuming that I installed the DecWindows support and the VAXstation has a; > video card in it how can I start the graphical interface?u  4   Don't know, as a *real* VMS'er, I never use it :-)     Jan-Erik Sderholm.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 13:16:49 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Newbie questions2) Message-ID: <3C399FC1.802310EC@127.0.0.1>h   Flash wrote:  8 > I'm a VMS beginner, I hope not to bother you too much.  H A great place to look is the OpenVMS FAQ which also contains pointers to+ online documentation, so fully recommended.u5 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.htmlo  L > Last saturday I installed openVMS on a dump saved VAXstation 4000/60 but I> > have still two problems (and no documentation to solve them) > J > 1) how can I obtain the CPU serial no. to registrer the VMS hobbist kit?  F It should be stamped on the rear of the system in a little panel belowF the model number, probably start with the letter A followed by another" letter and an 8 or 9 digit number.  N > 2) assuming that I installed the DecWindows support and the VAXstation has a; > video card in it how can I start the graphical interface?   H Base DECwindow support is only one stage, you also need to install MotifF kit. Not knowing your VMS version, but most likely is a PCSI kit (fileA with PCSI extension) somewhere in or around your operating systemsC installation media. Starting it will be in most cases automatically 8 performed by the operating system and install procedure.  E Licences are also required for Motif startup, so 1) will preclude 2).-   Welcome to [Open]VMS.,   -- 2( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot coms   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:38:16 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: Newbie questionse/ Message-ID: <1020107133515.56656C@Ives.egh.com>a  $ On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Nic Clews wrote:   > Flash wrote: > : > > I'm a VMS beginner, I hope not to bother you too much. > J > A great place to look is the OpenVMS FAQ which also contains pointers to- > online documentation, so fully recommended.47 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html  > N > > Last saturday I installed openVMS on a dump saved VAXstation 4000/60 but I@ > > have still two problems (and no documentation to solve them) > > L > > 1) how can I obtain the CPU serial no. to registrer the VMS hobbist kit? > H > It should be stamped on the rear of the system in a little panel belowH > the model number, probably start with the letter A followed by another$ > letter and an 8 or 9 digit number. > P > > 2) assuming that I installed the DecWindows support and the VAXstation has a= > > video card in it how can I start the graphical interface?I > J > Base DECwindow support is only one stage, you also need to install MotifH > kit. Not knowing your VMS version, but most likely is a PCSI kit (fileC > with PCSI extension) somewhere in or around your operating systemyE > installation media. Starting it will be in most cases automaticallye: > performed by the operating system and install procedure. > G > Licences are also required for Motif startup, so 1) will preclude 2).t >  > Welcome to [Open]VMS.l  @ The DECWindows-Motif license is included in the layered productsB licenses.  You will want to get both the Alpha-VMS license and the8 LP licenses.  Many newbies don't realize they need both.   -- a John Santosi Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:52:18 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>' Subject: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ???? @ Message-ID: <20020107155218.71992.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com>  / I noticed a strange problem with my queues last ) friday. It happened a few weeks ago, too.    When I tried to displaye   $ SHOW QUE any-queue  0 The command didnt show anything.  It freezed.=202 I tried a lot of queues but I had allways the same problem.  3 After a period (about 5-10 minutes since I noticed)w , the displays returned ok.    I triedv   $ SHOW ENTRY   and had the same symptoms.=20    Do you know anything ?     Regards    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DeL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D0 F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazile fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3De  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:10:37 -0500 From: William_Bochnik@acml.com+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????>> Message-ID: <OFA8628D2B.9C1D7FAB-ON85256B3A.0058BFDE@acml.com>  > Clustered?  Did your QMAN fail over to another node?  Any more info available?e     --------------------  .       Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>       01/07/2002 10:52 AMr@       Please respond to Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>  5                            To:  Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-                            cc:4              Subject: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????  / I noticed a strange problem with my queues lasti) friday. It happened a few weeks ago, too.n   When I tried to display@   $ SHOW QUE any-queue  - The command didnt show anything.  It freezed. 2 I tried a lot of queues but I had allways the same problem.  3 After a period (about 5-10 minutes since I noticed)  , the displays returned ok.d   I tried    $ SHOW ENTRY   and had the same symptoms.   Do you know anything ?     Regards    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DrI =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=i =3D=3D F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazila fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brI =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=I =3D=3D  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/r        F ______________________________________________________________________;  The information contained in this transmission may contain1@ privileged and confidential information and is intended only forA the use of the person(s) name above.  If you are not the intended2= recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for deliveringr3 this message to the intended recipient, any review, @ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication? is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient,EA please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroyu$ all copies of the original message.=   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:48:54 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????,@ Message-ID: <20020107164854.51063.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>   Williamb  ! My server is a standalone system.7  + I believe I dont have any other information  to give you ! But...   I can display just SHOW/QUE/MANt  $ It is to slow to stop the manager=20" because I have almost 1800 queues. (Server, Terminal and Printer).    Regardst   FC=20 # --- William_Bochnik@acml.com wrote:  >=206 > Clustered?  Did your QMAN fail over to another node? >  Any moreu > info available?o >=20 >=20 > -------------------- >=200 >       Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> >       01/07/2002 10:52 AM ' >       Please respond to Fabio Cardoso  > <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> >=20# >                            To:=20  > Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComE  >                            cc:6 >              Subject: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ???? >=201 > I noticed a strange problem with my queues laste+ > friday. It happened a few weeks ago, too.r >=20 > When I tried to displays >=20 > $ SHOW QUE any-queue >=20/ > The command didnt show anything.  It freezed. 4 > I tried a lot of queues but I had allways the same
 > problem. >=205 > After a period (about 5-10 minutes since I noticed)i > , the displays returned ok.  >=20	 > I tried  >=20 > $ SHOW ENTRY >=20 > and had the same symptoms. >=20 > Do you know anything ? >=20 >=20	 > Regards  >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D N > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D, > F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso > OpenVMS System Manager > Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brN > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Du >=204 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!?( > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!# > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/m >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > F ______________________________________________________________________5 >  The information contained in this transmission may 	 > containd0 > privileged and confidential information and is > intended only for26 > the use of the person(s) name above.  If you are not > the intended4 > recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for > delivering5 > this message to the intended recipient, any review,@4 > dissemination, distribution or duplication of this > communicationa6 > is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended > recipient,0 > please contact the sender immediately by reply > e-mail and destroy% > all copies of the original message.  >=20     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DhL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Ds F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazili fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Da  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:09:42 -0000* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ???? + Message-ID: <a1ckok$rkc@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>S  ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in messagee: news:20020107155218.71992.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com...   > When I tried to displayy >u > $ SHOW QUE any-queue >_/ > The command didnt show anything.  It freezed.l  D The queue manager will pause when the system disk is nearly full; orH it might be running on another cluster node which is loaded/experiencingA network problems. Try having OPCOM messages enabled and/or seeing E what the queue manager process is doing when you are having problems.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 13:05:06 +00000( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>( Subject: Re: OT: Phone charges in Europe) Message-ID: <3C399D02.3533BD6B@127.0.0.1>q   JF Mezei wrote:s > O > So the world will have 900/1800 systems, and north america will have 800/1900rP > systems. So to be "complete" a phone would have to have 4 bands. Although onceN > all of the analogue 800 is converted to GSM, it will probably offer the mostK > footprint and perhaps foreign roamers will only need to have 800 on their " > phone to roam in the USA/Canada.  F (Grumble: had to re-edit and resend due to Java screwing up my browser session)  5 Unless you have a satellite (formerly Iridium) phone.l  D You are correct JF, the phone would have to be 4 band, and cope withG analogue. When I was over in the US, I used a triple band GSM and found : coverage of 1900 variable but usable in major urban areas.  A You should bear in mind there are differences in coverage between H 800/900 and 1800/1900 frequencies due to cell size and in-building (typeB of building) coverage. Interestingly in the UK the 900 range has a= maximum handset (car phone) power of 2 watts, 1800 of 1 watt. - Analogue 900 in the UK is still in use AFAIK.e  G Roaming charges that I have to pay under my Orange service provider aretD for outgoing international calls of UKP 1.10, and 'incoming' roamingC charge of UKP 0.55, yet calls to any US number from the UK cost UKPxH 0.15, all charges per minute. Roaming charges do not incur UK VAT [ValueD Added Tax], not delivering UK based service. (Bills don't often show this accurately).e  E Dragging this kicking and screaming back onto topic, there is a 60/40hE odds-on chance that your roaming charges are processed (cleared) by au VMS cluster.   -- s( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comh   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:36:28 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>( Subject: Re: OT: Phone charges in Europe0 Message-ID: <3C39DBD8.3AD2C56A@blueyonder.co.uk>   John McLean wrote:  e > C > Doesn't work in the US though.  I wonder why they chose different J > frequencies to the rest of the world ? This has caused multi-band phonesJ > - specifically to cater for the USA - and of course the cost is borne by > the customer.  :-( >   F tri-band phones are available now if you really need them. These claim to work anywhere.   K from personal experience, get international roaming enabled for the countryc) you are to visit before you leave the UK.    regards    > John   -- w Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:56:29 GMTP+ From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com>e! Subject: Part Number for VMS CD'sg4 Message-ID: <1010397384.57107@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>   All,J A customer has called this morning saying he has lost his VMS CD's. He wasL supplied with 7.1-2, and it seems that the part number for a replacement setI of CD's is one of those mysterious things I cannot find on the COMPAQ webnJ site, or by talking to my service store. ("Sorry Sir we need a part number to be able to help!")9  K Can anyone please either point me to the place on the COMPAQ web site wheretH I can find the part number (So I can get a quote for replacing them!) or post the part number?"   Thanks in advance.   Andy Proctor   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:16:26 +0100< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de>% Subject: Re: Part Number for VMS CD'sD4 Message-ID: <a1bsi3$pmv0u$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>   [posted and mailed]e   Andy Proctor wrote...dK >A customer has called this morning saying he has lost his VMS CD's. He wasII >supplied with 7.1-2, and it seems that the part number for a replacementd setSJ >of CD's is one of those mysterious things I cannot find on the COMPAQ webK >site, or by talking to my service store. ("Sorry Sir we need a part number  >to be able to help!") > L >Can anyone please either point me to the place on the COMPAQ web site whereI >I can find the part number (So I can get a quote for replacing them!) orn >post the part number?  " The part numbers are in the SPD at. http://www.compaq.com/info/SP4187/SP4187PF.PDF  ? QAMT1ARH8 is "OpenVMS Alpha Version 7.12 software and online1
 documentationp CDROM"    cu,    Martin --J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.detJ One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 10:28:03 GMTd+ From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com>e% Subject: Re: Part Number for VMS CD'sa5 Message-ID: <1010399277.845629@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>e  G "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de> wrote in messagel. news:a1bsi3$pmv0u$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de... > [posted and mailed]B >0 > Andy Proctor wrote... I > >A customer has called this morning saying he has lost his VMS CD's. Het wascK > >supplied with 7.1-2, and it seems that the part number for a replacementt > setaL > >of CD's is one of those mysterious things I cannot find on the COMPAQ webF > >site, or by talking to my service store. ("Sorry Sir we need a part number > >to be able to help!") > >eH > >Can anyone please either point me to the place on the COMPAQ web site wherecK > >I can find the part number (So I can get a quote for replacing them!) oro > >post the part number? >I$ > The part numbers are in the SPD at0 > http://www.compaq.com/info/SP4187/SP4187PF.PDF >aA > QA-MT1AR-H8 is "OpenVMS Alpha Version 7.1-2 software and online  > documentation 	 > CD-ROM"k >d   Many Thanks!   Andy   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 07:25:46 -0800w* From: James Gessling <jgessling@yahoo.com>- Subject: Product install and installed images1) Message-ID: <3C39BDF9.F766EB8C@yahoo.com>e  D I've been puzzling over how "product install" copies image files.  I have a product with a bunchtH of shared libraries all installed (/open/header).  The files are version 1.  Like lib_gw6400.exe;1oE When I do something like "product install tux /source=dev:[dir], I've  got some new filesH (depending on the release) also version 1.  I can only tell they are new because of the> creation date.  So along I come and do like:  $install/replace lib_gw6400.  Did I just ? make a lost file? (I'm thinking yes).  So I should do anal/diskb sometimes to clean these up?E Is there a way to make the product install create a higher version of  the file, instead of the6 same one? (At least then I could tell what's going on)   Any suggestions?   Jimh   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:26:54 -0500 + From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@intel.com>e1 Subject: Re: Product install and installed imagesS8 Message-ID: <5rij3u03holslnrqgqbl940qt25rba4c38@4ax.com>  2 On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 07:25:46 -0800, James Gessling <jgessling@yahoo.com> wrote:  E >I've been puzzling over how "product install" copies image files.  Id >have a product with a bunchI >of shared libraries all installed (/open/header).  The files are versionm >1.  Like lib_gw6400.exe;1F >When I do something like "product install tux /source=dev:[dir], I've >got some new filesoI >(depending on the release) also version 1.  I can only tell they are new1 >because of thev? >creation date.  So along I come and do like:  $install/replacer >lib_gw6400.  Did I just( >make a lost file? (I'm thinking yes).    @ No, you didn't.  When PRODUCT INSTALL copies a new file onto theF system, it checks first to see if it is a known image, and if so, doesE the appropriate INSTALL commands to replace the old copy with the new = one.  As you note, PRODUCT INSTALL keeps only one copy of the > installed file (unless the kit developer requested "archive".)  ) Your INSTALL /REPLACE didn't do any harm..     Steve Lionel Compaq Fortran Engineering Intel Corporation 
 Nashua, NH  . Compaq Fortran - http://www.compaq.com/fortranK Intel Fortran - http://developer.intel.com/software/products/compilers/f50/    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 11:07:14 -0600w- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a1 Subject: Re: Product install and installed images 3 Message-ID: <CV6SnGMfO+mE@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  f In article <5rij3u03holslnrqgqbl940qt25rba4c38@4ax.com>, Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@intel.com> writes:4 > On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 07:25:46 -0800, James Gessling > <jgessling@yahoo.com> wrote: > F >>I've been puzzling over how "product install" copies image files.  I >>have a product with a bunch.J >>of shared libraries all installed (/open/header).  The files are version >>1.  Like lib_gw6400.exe;1SG >>When I do something like "product install tux /source=dev:[dir], I'vei >>got some new filesJ >>(depending on the release) also version 1.  I can only tell they are new >>because of the@ >>creation date.  So along I come and do like:  $install/replace >>lib_gw6400.  Did I just-) >>make a lost file? (I'm thinking yes).  0 > B > No, you didn't.  When PRODUCT INSTALL copies a new file onto theH > system, it checks first to see if it is a known image, and if so, doesG > the appropriate INSTALL commands to replace the old copy with the newu? > one.  As you note, PRODUCT INSTALL keeps only one copy of thet@ > installed file (unless the kit developer requested "archive".)  G In my experience this creates a file "marked for delete" in cases whereaG the old file is currently in use by some other process.  That just likehE a "lost file" except for the "marked for delete" bit which causes theeI file to be delete rather than put into [SYSLOST] when ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR  is invoked.3  A This is expected behavior, required for correct operation of VMS.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:55:30 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>1 Subject: Re: Product install and installed images36 Message-ID: <1020107135134.56656D-100000@Ives.egh.com>  % On 7 Jan 2002, Larry Kilgallen wrote:   h > In article <5rij3u03holslnrqgqbl940qt25rba4c38@4ax.com>, Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@intel.com> writes:6 > > On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 07:25:46 -0800, James Gessling  > > <jgessling@yahoo.com> wrote: > > H > >>I've been puzzling over how "product install" copies image files.  I > >>have a product with a bunchoL > >>of shared libraries all installed (/open/header).  The files are version > >>1.  Like lib_gw6400.exe;1sI > >>When I do something like "product install tux /source=dev:[dir], I'veo > >>got some new filesL > >>(depending on the release) also version 1.  I can only tell they are new > >>because of theB > >>creation date.  So along I come and do like:  $install/replace > >>lib_gw6400.  Did I juste+ > >>make a lost file? (I'm thinking yes).    > > D > > No, you didn't.  When PRODUCT INSTALL copies a new file onto theJ > > system, it checks first to see if it is a known image, and if so, doesI > > the appropriate INSTALL commands to replace the old copy with the neweA > > one.  As you note, PRODUCT INSTALL keeps only one copy of theTB > > installed file (unless the kit developer requested "archive".) > I > In my experience this creates a file "marked for delete" in cases whereDI > the old file is currently in use by some other process.  That just likenG > a "lost file" except for the "marked for delete" bit which causes the=K > file to be delete rather than put into [SYSLOST] when ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR_
 > is invoked._ > C > This is expected behavior, required for correct operation of VMS.o  F If the system is shut down normally, the process that is accessing theB old version of the installed file should get deleted and when thatA happens, and the access count of the installed file goes to 0, iteC should get removed and the disk file should get closed and since itnD is marked for delete, it should get deleted.  However, if the system1 crashes, it will get left around like Larry says.   F (Note: this is how I think it should work.  There may be some gotcha'sE with some installed images that prevent process deletion or otherwiseh" interfere with the final cleanup.)   -- s John Santost Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:22:37 GMT2= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)o) Subject: Re: REPLY command usage change ?u0 Message-ID: <00A07AD4.8BF54963@SendSpamHere.ORG>  n In article <df779b76.0201061628.7df01401@posting.google.com>, csabah@zipworld.com.au (CSABA HARANGOZO) writes: >G'day,  >oM >        The $HELP REPLY text says, that the /ENABLE or the /DISABLE switches H >        cannot be entered from a batch job. I did some testing in batch0 >        ( Alphaservers, VMS 7.2-1 ), you know : >@H >        $ DEFINE/USER  SYS$COMMAND  OPA0:       ( or another terminal )@ >        $ REPLY/ENABLE                          ( or /DISABLE ) >- >        and it seems to work.J >        Am I missing something or the help text needs changing/updating ?D >        It did even work selectively. i.e.  /ENABLE=(PRINTER,NETW).M >        One combination didn't work, namely /ENABLE/LOG. I didn't test other  >        variations. >S >        Any comments ?  Hoff ?   G I believe that it means that you cannot enable REPLY within a BATCH jobtG to have OPCOM messages placed into the batch job's .LOG file.  I agree, . the wording is a bit confusing and misleading.     >aL >        On another, lighter note, if you look at the first 2 examples afterN >        you enter $HELP SHOW USER EXAMP, you will see some familiar names :-)5 >        I wonder which machine they got them from...H >EB >                                                Cheers,     Csaba  " $HELP SHOW DEFAULT EXAMPLE too! :) --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMD            3J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes=   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 13:43:45 +0100_9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>F) Subject: Re: REPLY command usage change ?p' Message-ID: <3C399801.EE15526F@aaa.com>=  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > $ > $HELP SHOW DEFAULT EXAMPLE too! :) > --    Is't there a misspelling there ?  '          2.$ SET DEFAULT NOSUCH:[NOWAY]d  " I thought it was spelled NORWAY...  : (Well, as beeing from Sweden, a joke abut Norway is always
 welcome...   Jan-Erik Sderholm.i   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 14:41:07 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>t) Subject: Re: REPLY command usage change ?a; Message-ID: <01KCSKEEIE2I8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e  ) >          2.$ SET DEFAULT NOSUCH:[NOWAY]t > $ > I thought it was spelled NORWAY... > < > (Well, as beeing from Sweden, a joke abut Norway is always > welcome...  F And vice versa.  The one time I was in Norway, I was rather surprised I when people referred to the reset button on the computer as the "Swedish p button".   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:51:34 GMT== From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)_) Subject: Re: REPLY command usage change ?m0 Message-ID: <00A07AF1.BC8DF3D4@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <3C399801.EE15526F@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:"' >"Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:S >> -% >> $HELP SHOW DEFAULT EXAMPLE too! :)$ >> --t >c! >Is't there a misspelling there ?b >e( >         2.$ SET DEFAULT NOSUCH:[NOWAY] >0# >I thought it was spelled NORWAY.... >o; >(Well, as beeing from Sweden, a joke abut Norway is alwaysq >welcome...h >o >Jan-Erik Sderholm.  % I was referring to the #4 example. ;)i --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMt             J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:13:34 GMT:, From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demi1% Message-ID: <1010394814snz@dsl.co.uk>r  C In article <V%uZ7.4262$zw3.588840@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> 9            aaronspink@earthlink.net "aaron spink" writes:a  L > I use the right mouse button almost as much as I use the left.  I also useL > the middle mouse button quite a lot as well.  Whether the vast majority ofJ > users use it, isn't a concern of mine.  The fact that apple still hasn'tN > figured out context sensitive menus is the most annoying thing in the world.  F Errm, what's so /difficult/ about holding the button down, rather thanC looking for a second button?  Macs have had context sensitive menust" through this means from the start.   --  M Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.uknM     "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one ofcM     distributed ignorance.  And we know and understand less while being incr-yM     easingly capable."              Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs8   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:30:54 +1300 From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz>dY Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The  demise om4 Message-ID: <g_c_7.9830$_02.1138230@news.xtra.co.nz>  6 "Charles Richmond" <richmond@ev1.net> wrote in message! news:3C395090.584D7EB9@ev1.net...A > AG wrote:e > >]. > >        [snip...]     [snip...]   [snip...] > > / > > "I couldn't fail to disagree with you less"  > >c3 > Could you repeat that over again one more time???h >e > Have you heard:c >g, > "One bright day in the middle of the night  >  Two dead boys got up to fight% >  Back to back they faced each otherh& >  Took two knives and shot each other# >  A deaf policeman heard the noiser* >  And came and killed the two dead boys." >u9 > "...and they played the game of catch as catch can till36 >  the gunpowder ran out of the heals of their boots."  5 That's a good one for some laughs, for sure. However,t: it is built on using some obvious contradictions in terms.2 The example I quoted is not only a perfectly valid5 syntax construction but also doesn't violate semanticn/ meaning of the words used. Or so I guess ... :)    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:12:43 GMT G From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP>o4 Subject: Ultrix support in current VMS EVE code base5 Message-ID: <%gg_7.6930$cD4.10163@www.newsranger.com>u  D The current EVE code base on VMS has support for running in a Ultrix4 environment. (Search for Ultrix in the source code.)  B Has anyone had any experience of running this code base in such anE environment (or one of the other DEC Unixes), and if so, did you findg$ the Unix support to work correctly ?   Thanks for any information,t   Simon.  I BTW, which of the DEC Unixes has/had a TPU implementation for it anyway ?-   -- i@ Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP+ Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.t   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 09:46:12 -0600w- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 8 Subject: Re: Ultrix support in current VMS EVE code base3 Message-ID: <HTTKt6pDH+cQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>c   In article <%gg_7.6930$cD4.10163@www.newsranger.com>, Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP> writes:-F > The current EVE code base on VMS has support for running in a Ultrix6 > environment. (Search for Ultrix in the source code.) > D > Has anyone had any experience of running this code base in such anG > environment (or one of the other DEC Unixes), and if so, did you findi& > the Unix support to work correctly ? >  > Thanks for any information,n >  > Simon. > K > BTW, which of the DEC Unixes has/had a TPU implementation for it anyway ?h  D    a/Soft made (makes?) nu/TPU for a variety of platforms, includingF    ULTRIX and Tru64 UNIX (a.k.a. digital UNIX, or OSF/1).  For a short4    time DEC distributed systems with nu/TPU bundled.  F    Several commercial and free EDT emulators are also available, which!    is often what's really wanted.   G    I used nu/TPU under HP-UX.  It works, but I never was happy with anynB    of my keyboard remappings.  I had over 2000 lines of TPU that I    ported from VMS to HP-UX.    o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:08:55 +0100V9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>  Subject: VERB and SYS.STBe' Message-ID: <3C39ABF7.90E844E2@aaa.com>t   Hi.w/ I'm building the utilily VERB on VMS Alpha 7.3.s1 The build script refererences SYS$SYSTEM:SYS.STB.-  - I can't find this file. The closest I come is00 SYS$SHARE:SYSSTD.STB, but I'm not sure if that's0 the same file, and it don't build OK anyway with
 that file.   Jan-Erik Sderholm   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:00:09 -00004 From: "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk> Subject: Re: VERB and SYS.STB B Message-ID: <1010415402.29457.0.nnrp-12.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk>  3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in messagec! news:3C39ABF7.90E844E2@aaa.com...e1 > I'm building the utilily VERB on VMS Alpha 7.3. 3 > The build script refererences SYS$SYSTEM:SYS.STB.   L Replace ",sys$system:sys.stb/selective_search" by "/sysexe=selective_search"	 on Alpha.aK Yes, really, replace the existing parameter with a qualifier - strange, but  true.hI Do let us all know if you get it working - I'd expect it to be quite hard E work, since it's not just porting the code, but changing it to handle H different image file formats, and possibly other structures changed too.  
 Good luck,
 Chris SharmanH   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:01:39 -0600 4 From: Arlen Williams <arlen.williams@remove.eds.com> Subject: Re: VERB and SYS.STB0. Message-ID: <3C3963F3.6FD80C81@remove.eds.com>   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:c >  > Hi.i1 > I'm building the utilily VERB on VMS Alpha 7.3..3 > The build script refererences SYS$SYSTEM:SYS.STB.p > / > I can't find this file. The closest I come ist2 > SYS$SHARE:SYSSTD.STB, but I'm not sure if that's2 > the same file, and it don't build OK anyway with > that file. >  > Jan-Erik SderholmH That file should only be referenced if VERB is being built on a VAX. You6 should have no problem doing your build on your Alpha.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 09:49:01 -0600:- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a Subject: Re: VERB and SYS.STBe3 Message-ID: <sDhJyFqcMCLH@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  c In article <3C39ABF7.90E844E2@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:e > Hi.o1 > I'm building the utilily VERB on VMS Alpha 7.3. 3 > The build script refererences SYS$SYSTEM:SYS.STB.- >   H    On VAX, one links to SYS.STB, on Alpha one uses the /SYSEXE qualifier    instead.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:53:51 GMTh= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-): Subject: Re: VERB and SYS.STBs0 Message-ID: <00A07AF2.0E9F7F86@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <3C39ABF7.90E844E2@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:i >Hi.0 >I'm building the utilily VERB on VMS Alpha 7.3.2 >The build script refererences SYS$SYSTEM:SYS.STB. >t. >I can't find this file. The closest I come is1 >SYS$SHARE:SYSSTD.STB, but I'm not sure if that'sn1 >the same file, and it don't build OK anyway withv >that file.a >  >Jan-Erik Sderholmd     LINK/SYSEXE/   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:24:36 +0100 (MET) B From: "Dr. Martin P.J. Zinser" <ZINSER@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> Subject: Re: VERB and SYS.STBE; Message-ID: <01KCSQ3CNLG28ZFKED@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>E   Hello,  D maybe he is not using the latest version of Verb. The one I have at B http://www.decus.de:8080/www/vms/sw/verb.htmlx can be build using C descrip.mms without problem on OpenVMS Alpha (there is one harmless 9 warning during compilation, which could be fixed easily).l   					Greetings, Martin    M > From:	IN%"koehler@encompasserve.org"  "Bob Koehler"  7-JAN-2002 17:00:44.96o > Subj:	RE: VERB and SYS.STB  e > In article <3C39ABF7.90E844E2@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:7 > > Hi.83 > > I'm building the utilily VERB on VMS Alpha 7.3. 5 > > The build script refererences SYS$SYSTEM:SYS.STB.s > >e > J >    On VAX, one links to SYS.STB, on Alpha one uses the /SYSEXE qualifier
 >    instead. N Dr. Martin P.J. Zinser                       zinser@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com4 Deutsche Boerse Systems Inc.                        B Suite 1580                                   Tel: +1-312-408-3085 A 141 West Jackson Blvd.                       FAX: +1-312-408-3071g- Chicago, IL, 60604                           wF USA                                          Private:  zinser@decus.de   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:55:46 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: VERB and SYS.STB + Message-ID: <a1cjui$kql$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>l  y In article <1010415402.29457.0.nnrp-12.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk>, "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk> writes:l >r4 >"Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message" >news:3C39ABF7.90E844E2@aaa.com...2 >> I'm building the utilily VERB on VMS Alpha 7.3.4 >> The build script refererences SYS$SYSTEM:SYS.STB. >tM >Replace ",sys$system:sys.stb/selective_search" by "/sysexe=selective_search" 
 >on Alpha.L >Yes, really, replace the existing parameter with a qualifier - strange, but >true.J >Do let us all know if you get it working - I'd expect it to be quite hardF >work, since it's not just porting the code, but changing it to handleI >different image file formats, and possibly other structures changed too.0 >0 >Good luck,> >Chris Sharman >L  " This was ported to Alpha ages ago.     TYPE DESCRIP.MMS   .2 .a .8   .IFDEF __ALPHA__( CC = CC/STANDARD=VAXC/NOMEMBER_ALIGNMENT SYSEXE = /SYSEXE	 OPTIONS =- .ELSEa& CC = cc/vaxc/optimize=noinline/nodebug- SYSEXE = ,SYS$SYSTEM:SYS.STB/SELECTIVE_SEARCHp OPTIONS = ,C.OPT/OPTIONS .ENDIF                              .u .o .    And from the AAAREADME   "lG         VERB is a utility to make it possible to modify (or simply looksC at) command definitions. This is the "new" version, rewritten in C.,G No known bugs are present... The COMPILE.COM procedure has been updatedo2 to support Alpha (it has not been tested however).  G Modified by Hunter Goatley <goathunter@WKU.EDU> on 29-JUL-1994 23:37 to>+ work under VMS V6.1.  Also added .MMS file.e   "m  % Or is there some other utility VERB ?n    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:21:49 +0100i9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> & Subject: Re: VERB and SYS.STB solved !' Message-ID: <3C39CB1D.F3C9B7D9@aaa.com>    Oops...s% I think it did work from the start...)  $ The build command should have been : $ mms/Macro="__ALPHA__=1"  I used only  $ mmsl& and it tried to build with VAX syntax.  1 As a side note, can't the architecture be checkedr inside the DESCRIPT.MMS file ?   Jan-Erik Sderholm.t   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 12:13:50 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler),& Subject: Re: VERB and SYS.STB solved !3 Message-ID: <LAj5n4DoU13W@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  c In article <3C39CB1D.F3C9B7D9@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:t	 > Oops...o' > I think it did work from the start...  > & > The build command should have been : > $ mms/Macro="__ALPHA__=1"m > I used only  > $ mmsl( > and it tried to build with VAX syntax. > 3 > As a side note, can't the architecture be checked:  > inside the DESCRIPT.MMS file ?  @    descrip.mms, and the anwer is yes, in current releases of MMSA    MMS$ARCH_NAME is a built-in macro which matches the output of p    f$getsyi("arch_name")   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:12:33 +0000-% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>2  Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig8 Message-ID: <21ij3u0bhsdig3einp7prq8itu1ocbfpko@4ax.com>  , On Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:05:46 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:e    M >Does anyone really expect the remaining Compaq sales force to even know thatA >VMS still exists ?dO >The local folks seem to be under the impression that "corporate" wants them toiB >sell NT and when necessary Unix boxes. They wouldn't mention VMS.  ? As my local Compaq account manager (name supplied to any Compaq ? personnel on request) tells me he has been given no training ormD literature on VMS at all.  He had not even heard of a VMS ambassadorF until I explained it to him. For the record I do not believe the fault lies with him.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 14:06:39 +0000E( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1># Subject: Re: VMS and VAX clusterings) Message-ID: <3C39AB6F.FB78BE69@127.0.0.1>    "David J. Dachtera" wrote:H > Actually, you've inspired me. I'm going to start planning now to writeI > "OpenVMS Clusters for Dummies" and see if I can sell it to the folks at / > IDG. (They don't have that one yet, do they?)a  8 Call it 'Clusters for dummies', you'll sell more copies.  @ I did a similar trick not so long ago when I did an introductoryE presentation session on clusters. I described the operation, and onlytF mentioned the OS at the end (but compared and contrasted with others).H Still it got enough wider interest that some of those techies know thereF is an alternative, and have even at the very least considered VMS as a% clustering solution for availability.   H Go for it David, I'm sure Compaq would provide at least some backing and assistance?i -- y( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:32:13 GMTl- From: "Richard Tomkins" <tomkinsr@rogers.com>uY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if  merger   sucee 0 Message-ID: <xYk_7.9876$h2c.9171@news2.bloor.is>   David,  K The price of Windows loaded on a PC is in fact not buried many layers deep. I It can't be because of the way MRP systems based on SAP control inventoryuC and costing and markup ricing for large international corporations.-  L You see, the actual software kit that comes with the little Windows book andK the Windows NT CD-ROM with the actual Windows NT bits, has a shelf value ofaF $8.50 or so. Microsoft assess the surtax of Windows against the actualK number of PC's shipped, thus, the actual costing of the Windows surtax mustlK be levied against the product just prior to shipping it to a distributor orsG putting it into the channels. As such, there is a legal need to providetG tangible eveidence that the valuable bits are in place on the system inaL question and this is done by sticking a small license sticker on the side ofI the computer with the Windows license on it. That little sticker found on,E the side of the Compaq systems enclosure in fact has a value of a fewA) hundred dollars as an inventoriable item.c   rtt9        < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3C351F24.E5D007A2@fsi.net...g > Peter da Silva wrote:- > >$< > > In article <mjg33u8c41j6c298t06igs3euuso55ngh4@4ax.com>,2 > > israel r t  <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:K > > > The point that I was making is that when free ( effectively ) WindowsnJ > > > is essentially available to the average hobbyist for the asking ( orK > > > for the downloading I suppose ) , why would anyone pay real money fore > > > VMS for hobbyist use ? > >XI > > Doesn't this argument come down to "Why would someone want to use VMSo > > rather than Windows"?m >i/ > Can you say, "virus"? Can you say, "B-S-O-D"?h >  > Sure, I knew y'could!  > 3 > > After all, Windows is effectively free with any0' > > new PC, even for businesses. Right?i >{G > Well, not exactly. The "price" of WhineBloze is buried several layerseA > deep in what you pay the retailer. The OEM has already paid thecD > Micro$hit "tax" and added it into the wholesale price of the unit. >nE > I could build Intel boxes and sell 'em with (Linux, *BSD, etc.) for G > cheaper than the Wintel preloads and still make a slim profit on each D > one. Now that I think about it, that doesn't sound like such a bad	 > idea...s > I > > Now I'm no great VMS fan, but compared to Windows, well... let's juste( > > say I think that's a silly question. >o > ...and maybe not.l > L > > A better question might be "Why would someone want to pay for VMS rather > > than free Linux or BSD"? >vG > Rather depends on where security and reliability are on your priority  > list.H >l1 > > And even there, while I certainly wouldn't, I H > > can certainly see why a lot of people may well want to do that. Just0 > > look at some of the threads in these groups! > # > Again - it depends what you need.n >n > -- > David J. Dachtera" > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ >T* > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/0   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 14:32:20 GMTt) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) - Subject: VMS Marketing For the General Public@' Message-ID: <a1cbhk$aeh$1@joe.rice.edu>i- Keywords: vms,marketing,target,general,public.  @ There should be some VMS advertising aimed at John and Jane Doe, such as EDS does:]  6    http://www.eds.com/advertising/advertising_tv.shtml"    eds.com: Television Advertising      "Television  D    The award winning EDS television campaign leverages a basic truthB    about technology - it's complex. Using metaphors to express theG    difficulty surrounding the digital economy, EDS tapped into the most H    basic feelings of decision makers struggling to develop and implementA    technological solutions. The brilliance of the campaign is itsrG    relevancy to multiple targets. Anyone involved in the business worldhF    today could relate to the scenarios and understand the EDS promise.E    Whether its herding cats or helping you run with the squirrels, wec%    thrive on the challenge of it all.m  I    "Cat Herders" was launched on Super Bowl XXXIV. The commercial went on-C    to be nominated for an Emmy and recently won a silver EFFIE, thebE    prestigious advertising award for effectiveness, from the New YorkiI    American Marketing Association. Then the following year, "Running withwC    the Squirrels" was launched in January 2001 on Super Bowl XXXV."r  C Thre are other examples of advertising aired on TV and in the presseA that are hawking goods and services not used by a majority of thec general public.   A If nothing else, the Doe family would learn that computing is notsE 99.44% Microsoft & Intel, and 0.56% Apple, and that there are systems G that can survive loss of one datacenter without loss of data. The Does -@ may have offspring who could become IT decision makers some day.  C There's no way such advertising will come from VMS' owner du jour, -9 since that would require permission of the Wintel Cartel.   D BTW, do Gates and Grove still meet quarterly ?  There was an articleD about their quarterly meetings in some business magazine a few years4 ago, either "Business Week", "Forbes", or "Fortune".  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------    Date: 07 Jan 2002 09:48:43 -0500< From: westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin)H Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )0 Message-ID: <uadvq43p0.fsf@graphics.cornell.edu>  4 hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:  H >   Ah, the perpetual "Porting OpenVMS to IA-32" question.  Nice to see H >   this topic is back under discussion again -- it's a discussion that I >   has been sorely missed, and one that was probably getting lonely. :-)o > q > In article <uzo3ukws2.fsf@graphics.cornell.edu>, westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) writes: . > :Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes: > :eG > :> If I'm following this thread correctly, the problems with VMS are:dC > :>   1. Compaq owns it and apparently doesn't want to release it.wK > :>   2. Most of it (AFAIK) is written in a proprietary language BLISS-32.  > F >   The OpenVMS Bliss compilers and documentation are available on theF >   Freeware.  (Though not the source code, which seems to be part of  >   the underlying request.) > I > :>      Unless you want to rewrite all of VMS, you'd have to port BLISSl= > :>      which (again AFAIK) is not intended to be portable.r > E >   The Bliss language was deliberately intended to be very portable.iF >   (Packages and code were regularly ported between the various older- >   DIGITAL operating systems, for instance.)a > > > :Worse. Almost all of VMS was written in VAX assembly code.  > J >   All?  News to me.  Bliss is a substantial chunk of the early codebase.K >   At present, OpenVMS is split into thirds between Macro32, Bliss, and C,e! >   with various other languages.e  C Well, here you have the advantage of me. My experience was with VMS.< 2.3 and 3.0. As I was writing device drivers and reading theF microfiche source of drivers and kernel, I never came across any BLISS> code. I have some vague notion that RMS and perhaps some otherE non-kernel code was BLISS. I suspect this has changed since the earlynF '80s. At any rate, it's clear that "most of it" still isn't written inD BLISS. To the modern mind this seems bizarre, but it took many yearsD before writing an OS in a higher-level language was widely accepted.   > :...To port toI > :Alpha, DEC wrote a *compiler* to generate Alpha code from VAX assemblya > :code. > G >   Well, it was either that or translate and debug tracts of existing oD >   source code.  The compiler approach was easily the most elegant ! >   approach to porting the code.w  < Yes indeed. It was an ingenious solution to a nasty problem.  9 > :     I'm sure some modules were recoded for the Alpha.  > , >   Very few modules were recoded, actually. > E > :                                                       But anyway,dC > :another compiler would need to be written to take VMS to anotherm# > :hardware platform. For starters.  >  >   So?i  C So a BLISS compiler alone won't get you there. That was the point I  apparently failed to make.   <snip>   -- a -Stephen H. WestinA Any information or opinions in this message are mine: they do not:D represent the position of Cornell University or any of its sponsors.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 08:54:23 -0600-- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)oH Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )3 Message-ID: <iFvcay7K3y24@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  o In article <uzo3ukws2.fsf@graphics.cornell.edu>, westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) writes:  > G > Worse. Almost all of VMS was written in VAX assembly code. To port tobH > Alpha, DEC wrote a *compiler* to generate Alpha code from VAX assemblyE > code. I'm sure some modules were recoded for the Alpha. But anyway,-B > another compiler would need to be written to take VMS to another" > hardware platform. For starters. >   C    Back to reality.  A great bit of VMS has since been rewritten infB    BLISS or other HLL.  I know of VAX Macro code fomr VMS 2.x thatE    became BLISS by VMS 4.0.  When the VAX to Alpha port was done, DECvB    engineers claimed the VAX Macro code was down to just over 50%.  F    And since the VAX instruction set was so complex, it looks like HLLG    concepts to most other systems.  Which is one of the reasons DEC waslD    able to write the Macro-32 compiler for Alpha and Compaq has said*    they'll do a Macro-32 compiler for IPF.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 08:58:39 -0600m- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)cH Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )3 Message-ID: <nm6CN+Sg8vbW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   T In article <0BtZ7.38069$AS4.4315095@news20.bellglobal.com>, cbbrowne@acm.org writes: > F > I was under the impression that they tried to make sure that part ofG > VMS (possibly not OpenVMS) was implemented in just about any languageo@ > that they could find, so as to be able to warrant that all the8 > languages could be "certified" as compatible with VMS.  F    That oft brought up concept has been denied by appropriate sources.G    But there are lots of different languages in use as each part seemed G    to make use of either the best tool for the job, or the programmer'sl    favorite.  D    Compare that to the thought of adding a neat new number crunchingF    tool to UNIX, if Fortran-95 turned out to be the right tool.  Maybe&    one could come close coding C-tran.    v   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 11:00:13 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) H Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )3 Message-ID: <1DCPHDAVtIba@eisner.encompasserve.org>   o In article <uadvq43p0.fsf@graphics.cornell.edu>, westin*nospam@graphics.cornell.edu (Stephen H. Westin) writes:-  E > Well, here you have the advantage of me. My experience was with VMSx> > 2.3 and 3.0. As I was writing device drivers and reading theH > microfiche source of drivers and kernel, I never came across any BLISS > code.c  > On VAX drivers written entirely in Bliss are only possible for> pseudo-devices because of the lack of a WFIKPCH linkage in the Bliss compiler.a   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:42:14 -06002 From: "Virginia Metze" <metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu>, Subject: RE: what is future of VMS and alphaD Message-ID: <BOECKNAHIJPJAMDEEHDNIEMODCAA.metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu>  B My opinion:  VMS has somewhat of a future as long as there are VMSC professionals, but there are increasingly few VMS professionals andsE hardly any new ones.  If HP shuts down VMS, it is curtains for anyoneeB not wanting to make a career change within a few years after that.  K Don't believe the propaganda by scared Unix professionals:  Windows 2000/XP I is full-featured, in some cases even better than VMS.  And there are manyO) good young Windows 2000/XP professionals.   L My own recommendation is to become such a professional yourself or hire one.  J Phase out VMS.  It is wonderful, but actually all of its best features are in Windows nt/2000/XP I and those operating systems additionally are basically graphics interfacem whereas VMS is not, really.  H Facing retirement in a few years, I have de-emphasized my VMS systems in favor ofG moving the web, file, and mail serving to Windows servers.  It has goneh well.  Those ofdK us who remember all of the problems that we had with these things with UNIX2 and VMS L operating systems realize that it has gone remarkably smoothly with Windows. ThoseVK who don't realize it don't know how much trouble we had back in the days of  bitnetH going on internet mail/services...  Memories are short.  Windows has, of course, benefittedD by all of the shaking out of tcp services that has occurred, and the implementations areC good.9  K We waited to do mail until the latest version of Exchange.  There have been  remarkably fewK problems, and we are able to do virus checking on the incoming stream, etc.   L Now why didn't I go to Digital Unix instead?  In the first place, the future of any UNIX but.K Linux is somewhat in doubt.  I think that probably Linux will simply go the  way of otherA UNIXes and die because there are too many versions around, mostlyc unsupported, but> it will doubtlessly survive in a segment of the server market.  J I will continue to use Digital UNIX on my computational cluster, as people into computationsmL do not mind, perhaps prefer, UNIX. Even those people in general like Windows desktop machines.h  1 I am starting a Windows NT computational machine.l   Ginnym   >-----Original Message-----h >From:' >Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:33 PMh. >Subject: What is the future of VMS and Alpha? >e > - >Return-Path: <Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com>e >Received: for <metze>6 >Received: from portal.west.saic.com (mvb.saic.com) by= >ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id-; ><0.CBB6273C@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu>; 6 Jan 2002 20:19:58 -0600g8 >From: "webmaster@cyberunlimited.org" <RES0JWU3@gte.net>4 >Received: from mvb.saic.com by portal.west.saic.comC >          via smtpd (for ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu [130.126.101.14]) withv >SMTP; 7 Jan 2002 02:19:58 UT  >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms. >Subject: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?
 >Lines: 57 >MIME-Version: 1.0% >Content-Type: multipart/alternative;a6 >	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C196D8.2790FC00" >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal7 >X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200C9 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 : >Message-ID: <WU6_7.625$SL.1308873@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net>	 >X-Trace: D >+4UIu7JyEo6FuPsFwop2M6CYft6qTH516fCI3aIaGgR2e+SnRzSXs1WZ43A/8S45Z5/D >hhFgRjmlj!EmkaIfNIkO1TJwHBhLld9+3UOtWgHLIsuBqyBSaxvW6dy89ny3OZBg2Bn >G60Tk9x9ipCSfv90B8H!xX8Aqnw=1  >X-Complaints-To: abuse@gtei.net> >X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers: >X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your >complaint properlyy1 >NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 01:32:38 GMTo >Distribution: world$ >Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 01:32:40 GMT< >Reply-to: "webmaster@cyberunlimited.org" <RES0JWU3@gte.net> >X-Gateway-From: mvb.saic.comt >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >X-Gateway-Source-Info: USENET >r- >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  >s, >------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C196D8.2790FC00 >Content-Type: text/plain; >	charset="x-user-defined", >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >tK >Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the Supervisory Control and =vK >Data Acquisition Department for a Water Utility.I currently have several =oK >VAX and Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade my VAX Systems =oH >to Alpha. However, some people here believe that the future of VMS is =K >limited and if we continue with VMS Systems, we will not be able to hire = G >VMS Experts to fill our future SCADA positions. They believe that we =uJ >should shift to an NT environment so that we can find people to support =H >our NT Systems in the future. What are your thoughts on this? What is =G >Compaq going to do about VMS in the future? Also, how long is Compaq =e, >going to support the Alpha Architecture?=20 >b >Thank you.o >o >n, >------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C196D8.2790FC00 >Content-Type: text/html;o >	charset="x-user-defined", >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >o? ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">s
 ><HTML><HEAD>o8 ><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = >charset=3Dx-user-defined">C9 ><META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR>m ><STYLE></STYLE> ></HEAD> ><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>i ><DIV><FONT size=3D2>oJ ><P><STRONG>Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the Supervisory = >Control=20eG >and Data Acquisition Department for a Water Utility.I currently have =d >several VAX=20sJ >and Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade my VAX Systems to =
 >Alpha.=20J >However, some people here believe that the future of VMS is limited and =	 >if we=20sH >continue with VMS Systems, we will not be able to hire VMS Experts to = >fill our=20E >future SCADA positions. They believe that we should shift to an NT =0 >environment=20 K >so that we can find people to support our NT Systems in the future. What =5 >are=20cE >your thoughts on this? What is Compaq going to do about VMS in the =n >future? Also,=20 > >how long is Compaq going to support the Alpha Architecture? = ></STRONG></P>> ><P><STRONG>Thank you.</STRONG></P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> > . >------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C196D8.2790FC00-- >    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:45:32 -06001 From: "Virginia Metze" <metze@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu> , Subject: RE: what is future of VMS and alphaC Message-ID: <BOECKNAHIJPJAMDEEHDNCEMPDCAA.metze@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu>W  B My opinion:  VMS has somewhat of a future as long as there are VMSC professionals, but there are increasingly few VMS professionals anddE hardly any new ones.  If HP shuts down VMS, it is curtains for anyoneaB not wanting to make a career change within a few years after that.  K Don't believe the propaganda by scared Unix professionals:  Windows 2000/XP I is full-featured, in some cases even better than VMS.  And there are many ) good young Windows 2000/XP professionals.   L My own recommendation is to become such a professional yourself or hire one.  J Phase out VMS.  It is wonderful, but actually all of its best features are in Windows nt/2000/XPdI and those operating systems additionally are basically graphics interface  whereas VMS is not, really.  H Facing retirement in a few years, I have de-emphasized my VMS systems in favor ofG moving the web, file, and mail serving to Windows servers.  It has gone  well.  Those ofiK us who remember all of the problems that we had with these things with UNIXo and VMSeL operating systems realize that it has gone remarkably smoothly with Windows. ThoseDK who don't realize it don't know how much trouble we had back in the days ofr bitnetH going on internet mail/services...  Memories are short.  Windows has, of course, benefittedD by all of the shaking out of tcp services that has occurred, and the implementations arei good.t  K We waited to do mail until the latest version of Exchange.  There have beenk remarkably fewK problems, and we are able to do virus checking on the incoming stream, etc.o  L Now why didn't I go to Digital Unix instead?  In the first place, the future of any UNIX buteK Linux is somewhat in doubt.  I think that probably Linux will simply go thea way of otherA UNIXes and die because there are too many versions around, mostlyr unsupported, but> it will doubtlessly survive in a segment of the server market.  J I will continue to use Digital UNIX on my computational cluster, as people into computationscL do not mind, perhaps prefer, UNIX. Even those people in general like Windows desktop machines.v  1 I am starting a Windows NT computational machine.o   Ginnya   >-----Original Message-----m >From:' >Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:33 PMr. >Subject: What is the future of VMS and Alpha? >n >o- >Return-Path: <Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com>S >Received: for <metze>6 >Received: from portal.west.saic.com (mvb.saic.com) by= >ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP idd; ><0.CBB6273C@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu>; 6 Jan 2002 20:19:58 -0600 8 >From: "webmaster@cyberunlimited.org" <RES0JWU3@gte.net>4 >Received: from mvb.saic.com by portal.west.saic.comC >          via smtpd (for ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu [130.126.101.14]) withi >SMTP; 7 Jan 2002 02:19:58 UTg >X-Newsgroups: comp.os.vms. >Subject: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?
 >Lines: 57 >MIME-Version: 1.0% >Content-Type: multipart/alternative;c6 >	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01C196D8.2790FC00" >X-Priority: 3 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal7 >X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200o9 >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200y: >Message-ID: <WU6_7.625$SL.1308873@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net>	 >X-Trace:dD >+4UIu7JyEo6FuPsFwop2M6CYft6qTH516fCI3aIaGgR2e+SnRzSXs1WZ43A/8S45Z5/D >hhFgRjmlj!EmkaIfNIkO1TJwHBhLld9+3UOtWgHLIsuBqyBSaxvW6dy89ny3OZBg2Bn >G60Tk9x9ipCSfv90B8H!xX8Aqnw=e  >X-Complaints-To: abuse@gtei.net> >X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers: >X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your >complaint properly91 >NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 01:32:38 GMTe >Distribution: world$ >Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 01:32:40 GMT< >Reply-to: "webmaster@cyberunlimited.org" <RES0JWU3@gte.net> >X-Gateway-From: mvb.saic.comf >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >X-Gateway-Source-Info: USENET > - >This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  >e, >------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C196D8.2790FC00 >Content-Type: text/plain; >	charset="x-user-defined", >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >yK >Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the Supervisory Control and =gK >Data Acquisition Department for a Water Utility.I currently have several =@K >VAX and Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade my VAX Systems =oH >to Alpha. However, some people here believe that the future of VMS is =K >limited and if we continue with VMS Systems, we will not be able to hire =nG >VMS Experts to fill our future SCADA positions. They believe that we =rJ >should shift to an NT environment so that we can find people to support =H >our NT Systems in the future. What are your thoughts on this? What is =G >Compaq going to do about VMS in the future? Also, how long is Compaq =n, >going to support the Alpha Architecture?=20 >  >Thank you.g >e >s, >------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C196D8.2790FC00 >Content-Type: text/html;  >	charset="x-user-defined", >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >r? ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">a
 ><HTML><HEAD> 8 ><META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = >charset=3Dx-user-defined">p9 ><META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4616.200" name=3DGENERATOR>, ><STYLE></STYLE> ></HEAD> ><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>e ><DIV><FONT size=3D2>gJ ><P><STRONG>Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the Supervisory = >Control=20aG >and Data Acquisition Department for a Water Utility.I currently have =y >several VAX=20aJ >and Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade my VAX Systems to =
 >Alpha.=20J >However, some people here believe that the future of VMS is limited and =	 >if we=20tH >continue with VMS Systems, we will not be able to hire VMS Experts to = >fill our=20E >future SCADA positions. They believe that we should shift to an NT =. >environment=20 K >so that we can find people to support our NT Systems in the future. What =a >are=20.E >your thoughts on this? What is Compaq going to do about VMS in the =s >future? Also,=20c> >how long is Compaq going to support the Alpha Architecture? = ></STRONG></P>> ><P><STRONG>Thank you.</STRONG></P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> > . >------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C196D8.2790FC00-- >d   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:04:23 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> , Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha5 Message-ID: <3C39E327.4CCCE4FF@swissonline.delete.ch>l   Virginia Metze wrote:  > D > My opinion:  VMS has somewhat of a future as long as there are VMSE > professionals, but there are increasingly few VMS professionals andtG > hardly any new ones.  If HP shuts down VMS, it is curtains for anyoneeD > not wanting to make a career change within a few years after that. >   ; You seem to have posted this twice, 3 minutes apart.  Why ?      John McLeano   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 12:32:30 -0600e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i, Subject: RE: what is future of VMS and alpha3 Message-ID: <JZhS2q2zvIyZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  y In article <BOECKNAHIJPJAMDEEHDNIEMODCAA.metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu>, "Virginia Metze" <metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu> writes:o > D > My opinion:  VMS has somewhat of a future as long as there are VMS > professionals,    D    Anyone can learn VMS.  When we need new VMS professionals we hireF    just about anybody who knows something about more than one platformE    and let them learn VMS.  That's why we used it in the first place.iC    We skip over the one=platform any folks until they show they areo.    interested in learning more than one thing.   > L > Phase out VMS.  It is wonderful, but actually all of its best features are > in Windows nt/2000/XP0  A    No, it's best features, like security, reliability, and upwardiD    compatabilty between releases are not anywhere to be found in any    Microsoft OS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 18:55:40 -0000d- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)-, Subject: RE: what is future of VMS and alpha7 Message-ID: <918F8F5E6warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>u  2 metze@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu (Virginia Metze) wrote in9 <BOECKNAHIJPJAMDEEHDNCEMPDCAA.metze@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu>: s   >oC >My opinion:  VMS has somewhat of a future as long as there are VMSbD >professionals, but there are increasingly few VMS professionals andF >hardly any new ones.  If HP shuts down VMS, it is curtains for anyoneC >not wanting to make a career change within a few years after that.b  J I'm not sure what you mean by "shuts down", but keep in mind that any new J owner of the OS will likely honor long term support committments given to  the DOD.  D >Don't believe the propaganda by scared Unix professionals:  WindowsI >2000/XP is full-featured, in some cases even better than VMS.  And theref3 >are many good young Windows 2000/XP professionals.a >aH >My own recommendation is to become such a professional yourself or hire >one.  >lG >Phase out VMS.  It is wonderful, but actually all of its best features- >are in Windows nt/2000/XP  I Could you point us VMS'ers to the Microsoft-equivalent chapter on shared-cD everything clusters and host-based volume shadowing?  These are the , features I put at the top of my "best" list.  @ >and those operating systems additionally are basically graphics >interface whereas VMS ise
 >not, really.  >tI >Facing retirement in a few years, I have de-emphasized my VMS systems inM	 >favor ofnH >moving the web, file, and mail serving to Windows servers.  It has gone >well.  Those ofG >us who remember all of the problems that we had with these things withe
 >UNIX and VMSsD >operating systems realize that it has gone remarkably smoothly with >Windows. Those I >who don't realize it don't know how much trouble we had back in the days 
 >of bitnetI >going on internet mail/services...  Memories are short.  Windows has, ofs >course, benefittedpE >by all of the shaking out of tcp services that has occurred, and the> >implementations are >good. > G >We waited to do mail until the latest version of Exchange.  There haves >been remarkably fewG >problems, and we are able to do virus checking on the incoming stream,r >etc.  >oF >Now why didn't I go to Digital Unix instead?  In the first place, the >future of any UNIX butbH >Linux is somewhat in doubt.  I think that probably Linux will simply go >the way of otherhB >UNIXes and die because there are too many versions around, mostly >unsupported, butm? >it will doubtlessly survive in a segment of the server market.  >hD >I will continue to use Digital UNIX on my computational cluster, as >people into computations E >do not mind, perhaps prefer, UNIX. Even those people in general likec >Windows desktop machines.  . And that's why we call them "those people" <g>  2 >I am starting a Windows NT computational machine.  J From your comments above, it doesn't sound like high-availablity or large-L scale systems are your focus.  For more trivial applications (like internet B / mail), a comsumer operating system may be an appropriate choice.   ws   -- i   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)o The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 13:50:25 +0000t( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>1 Subject: Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha? ) Message-ID: <3C39A7A1.71F9E3F9@127.0.0.1>a  ' > "webmaster@cyberunlimited.org" wrote:  > F > Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the Supervisory ControlF > and Data Acquisition Department for a Water Utility.I currently haveF > several VAX and Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade myB > VAX Systems to Alpha. However, some people here believe that theG > future of VMS is limited and if we continue with VMS Systems, we willtE > not be able to hire VMS Experts to fill our future SCADA positions.p  G As I've mentioned before we [Computer Sciences Corporation] have issuedeE to multiple clients our 'VMS' advice. Obviously I can't give it here, H but lets say if it ain't broke, there is no reason to fix it, but on theH other hand we can provide the experience and expertise to migrate to VAXE to Alpha, and offer advice now to make any such future transition (tof Alpha or Itanium) easier.e  G It is true to say we are involved with many systems that will be aroundmB for some considerable time, even if future marketing etc. does notH happen. There is a lot of FUD being thrown around on this list which, inH my opinion, could be quelled a little more effectively than it is, but IH would be very wary making any long term strategic decisions based on the" moods and opinions expressed here.  G Of note I've been involved in a UK based water services company happilye migrating from VAX to Alpha.  G As far as we [CSC] are concerned, VMS still is, and will continue to be-B an operating system [among others] that we would recommend for newD installations where it is the best choice in any given situation forF clients. If you need VMS expertise, you need look no further than someD contributors to this list who can provide it in an acceptable way to you.   -- w( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comk   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 05:54:26 -0800f( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)1 Subject: Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?a= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201070554.256ea1d4@posting.google.com>e  x "webmaster@cyberunlimited.org" <RES0JWU3@gte.net> wrote in message news:<WU6 7.625$SL.1308873@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net>...K > Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the Supervisory Control and UK > Data Acquisition Department for a Water Utility.I currently have several tK > VAX and Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade my VAX Systems  H > to Alpha. However, some people here believe that the future of VMS is K > limited and if we continue with VMS Systems, we will not be able to hire  G > VMS Experts to fill our future SCADA positions. They believe that we  J > should shift to an NT environment so that we can find people to support H > our NT Systems in the future. What are your thoughts on this? What is G > Compaq going to do about VMS in the future? Also, how long is Compaq e+ > going to support the Alpha Architecture? h >  > Thank you. >  >  > --  G VMS is too heavily used by defense and government to go away ... either I Compaq will port it to itanium or it will have to sell it ... either way,oD even if it is not ported to itanium, ev7 ensures it will be a viableH platform for at least another 10 years ... going to windoze blue screensG for any apps would be insane ... ride out vms and in ten years if it noyM longer is viable, by then you can use charon vms on an intel box as processor/H speeds by then will allow its emulation to perform well, or you can portG to linux (gag!) as maybe it will by then not have as many bugs in it as"B windoze, but for now, stay on VMS unless you want to be down alot!   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:43:01 -00002- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)A1 Subject: Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?27 Message-ID: <918F665E8warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>   E >Compaq going to do about VMS in the future? Also, how long is Compaqa* >going to support the Alpha Architecture?  >X >Thank you.p >S >e -- html snipped --  < Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the Supervisory
 ><Control E >and Data Acquisition Department for a Water Utility.I currently haveuI >several VAX and Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade my VAX=G >Systems to Alpha. However, some people here believe that the future of0H >VMS is limited and if we continue with VMS Systems, we will not be ableE >to hire VMS Experts to fill our future SCADA positions. They believeqH >that we should shift to an NT environment so that we can find people toF >support our NT Systems in the future. What are your thoughts on this?F >What is Compaq going to do about VMS in the future? Also, how long is? >Compaq going to support the Alpha Architecture? </STRONG></P> -> ><P><STRONG>Thank you.</STRONG></P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> ><  D webmaster@cyberunlimited.org (webmaster@cyberunlimited.org) wrote in/ <WU6_7.625$SL.1308873@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net>: @  I >Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the Supervisory Control andtI >Data Acquisition Department for a Water Utility.I currently have severallI >VAX and Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade my VAX SystemsnF >to Alpha. However, some people here believe that the future of VMS isI >limited and if we continue with VMS Systems, we will not be able to hireXE >VMS Experts to fill our future SCADA positions. They believe that weeH >should shift to an NT environment so that we can find people to supportF >our NT Systems in the future. What are your thoughts on this? What is  I Keep in mind total cost of ownership as you and your managers ponder the /I question.  You've got a solid piece of engineering in place now.  If you nL replace that with a Microsoft OS, there's a significant possibility it will K cost more to support over the lifetime of the new system; more boxes, more lK people, (lots) more patches, more reboots, more OS crashes, fewer recovery  L paths.  Get the gang talking dollars (over the lifetime of the system), and B perhaps the move doesn't make as much sense as it would appear to.   ws   -- h   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)i The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:58:44 -05002 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>1 Subject: Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?r1 Message-ID: <yrk_7.345$5Y4.8940@news.cpqcorp.net>a  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.  + ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C19772.A80E7430n Content-Type: text/plain;  	charset="x-user-defined"e+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printabler  
 Dear Jeffery,   ' Please send me your real email address.e  	 Thank Youe
 Sue Skonetskie  Compaq OpenVMS Field Deployment.F   "webmaster@cyberunlimited.org" <RES0JWU3@gte.net> wrote in message =3 news:WU6_7.625$SL.1308873@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net...oH   Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the Supervisory Control =F and Data Acquisition Department for a Water Utility.I currently have =J several VAX and Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade my VAX =H Systems to Alpha. However, some people here believe that the future of =I VMS is limited and if we continue with VMS Systems, we will not be able =uF to hire VMS Experts to fill our future SCADA positions. They believe =I that we should shift to an NT environment so that we can find people to =)G support our NT Systems in the future. What are your thoughts on this? =0G What is Compaq going to do about VMS in the future? Also, how long is =f2 Compaq going to support the Alpha Architecture?=20     Thank you.    + ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C19772.A80E7430; Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="x-user-defined" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable?  > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD>7 <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =r charset=3Dx-user-defined">9 <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR>1 <STYLE></STYLE>  </HEAD>B <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>. <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dear Jeffery,</FONT></DIV>' <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>uH <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Please send me your real email address.</FONT></DIV>' <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>v* <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thank You</FONT></DIV>. <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sue Skonetski</FONT></DIV>A <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Compaq OpenVMS Field Deployment.</FONT></DIV>f <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20C style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =03 BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">:
   <DIV>"<A=200   =3J href=3D"mailto:webmaster@cyberunlimited.org">webmaster@cyberunlimited.org= </A>"=20J   &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:RES0JWU3@gte.net">RES0JWU3@gte.net</A>&gt; wrote = in=20T   message <A=20r   =sJ href=3D"news:WU6_7.625$SL.1308873@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net">news:WU6_7.625$=. SL.1308873@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net</A>...</DIV>   <DIV><FONT size=3D2>?   <P><STRONG>Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the =  Supervisory=20A   Control and Data Acquisition Department for a Water Utility.I =U currently have=20hH   several VAX and Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade my = VAX=20J   Systems to Alpha. However, some people here believe that the future of =	 VMS is=20lG   limited and if we continue with VMS Systems, we will not be able to =n hire VMS=20sD   Experts to fill our future SCADA positions. They believe that we = should shift=20vE   to an NT environment so that we can find people to support our NT =e
 Systems in=20rJ   the future. What are your thoughts on this? What is Compaq going to do = about=20J   VMS in the future? Also, how long is Compaq going to support the Alpha =     Architecture? </STRONG></P>P   <P><STRONG>Thank =9 you.</STRONG></P></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>i  - ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C19772.A80E7430--e   ------------------------------  ! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 02 11:32:24 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.comtY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise    of cot+ Message-ID: <a1c8fo$9rr$3@bob.news.rcn.net>   ' In article <3C395777.A4F4FC8C@ev1.net>,3-    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:a >> d* >> In article <3C3745DE.8FF49129@ev1.net>,0 >>    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote: >> >/ >> >     [snip...]     [snip...]      [snip...]r >> >D >> >I know... I just threw that in for the benefit of your nephew... >> >; >> ROTFL.  It's really not his fault; it's the fault of alla? >> the non-experts telling him he knows everything because they  >> don't know anything.  >>  C >IMHO you really have put your finger on a *large* problem there!!! B >The school system is spending so much time artificially building < >up the self-esteem of the students that it is pitiful. SomeB >schools have gotten rid of grades and sports competition, becauseA >the loser's self-esteem would be devestated.  They are also busyrA >trying to emphasize how "equal" everyone is...and how people whoI@ >are "descriminated against" should be given a head start...thatC >they are bringing forth people who are *not* ready to do something: >useful in the world.n  @ Exactly!!!!!  Another thing that he is getting "taught" is that,< just because he is smart, he doesn't have to do as much work@ as the lesser kids.  For example, in his math classes, the classA is assigned 20 problem; he only has to do three.  I maintain thatt: he should be assigned more than 20--ideally all different./ I don't think he is going to survive adulthood.i< He certainly is in for a very rough time when he attends his first college class. >  ><rant>e >tC >People need to read Emerson's "Self-Reliance" a few dozen times... B >And remember the Hemmingway quote:  "Everything is your own fault@ >if you are any damn good." Enough of people blaming others for ? >their problems...if you want to build a better world, build a c> >better *you*. Well, I do *not* mean you, BAH, but you get the >idea...  B Yup.  Of course, when I point this out to my family, I am wrong...  does that make me damn good ;-).   >a ></rant> >n> >> I was informed just the other day that he could explain the? >> anomolies that I observed when I compared having a cable boxb@ >> to not having a cable box.  This was kid who had to get a newC >> laptop because his old computer didn't have any more disk space.p >>  B >> hmmm...I wonder if that reason would have worked when we wanted >> more systems? >> nC >An additional disk drive would have been a fraction of the cost offD >a laptop...but I am sure that your nephew really wanted the laptop.  @ Yup.  I'm pretty sure he wanted the laptop but I'm also 97% sure0 that he isn't learning about cleaning up a disk.  E >And if the people with the money do *not* understand the technology,  >then they will get snowed.s >cA What do you mean "people with money"?  The funds were borrowed...V which is another irritation.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.i   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:21:04 +0000 (UTC)0 From: "Rupert Pigott" <Darkb00ng@btinternet.com>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise    of coy. Message-ID: <a1casf$1h$1@paris.btinternet.com>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1c8fo$9rr$3@bob.news.rcn.net... [SNIP]B > Exactly!!!!!  Another thing that he is getting "taught" is that,> > just because he is smart, he doesn't have to do as much workB > as the lesser kids.  For example, in his math classes, the classC > is assigned 20 problem; he only has to do three.  I maintain thats< > he should be assigned more than 20--ideally all different.1 > I don't think he is going to survive adulthood.P> > He certainly is in for a very rough time when he attends his > first college class.  I The chances are College will have changed it's format to fit by then. The I English GCSE, A Level and University systems have been going through just J such an upheaval over the last 15 years. There are lots of complaints fromL politicians that better results mean that the syllabus must have been dumbedI down... I'm not convinced myself, the education seems broader these days, ) whether that's a good thing I don't know.    Cheers,  Rupert   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 09:36:35 -0600n- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)nB Subject: Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha3 Message-ID: <VOA1fBjS28QD@eisner.encompasserve.org>U  d In article <w4owuyw8333.fsf@eco-fs1.irtnog.org>, "Matthew X. Economou" <xenophon@irtnog.org> writes:E > I own a VXT2000+ X terminal and an AlphaStation 200 running OpenVMS  > 7.2.  5    IIRC, there's an installation manual just for VMS.h   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:31:07 GMTo4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>B Subject: Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha0 Message-ID: <3C39DA97.75C7D7EC@blueyonder.co.uk>   Ryan Moore wrote:r > I > Well, the 7.2 documention that talks about MOP loading is in the System'K > Manager's Manual.  For 7.2, it is chapter 22.  Pay attention to the LANCP F > commands like ADD NODE, etc.  The boot file should be something likeL > VXTLDR.SYS.  You'll need to know the hardware address of the VXT, but that& > shouldnt' be hard to get figure out. > J > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6017/6017pro_091.html#6017lan > I > The bad news is that I believe an Infoserver is *required* to run a VXTiF > terminal.  The InfoServer is what serves the I/O to the VXT after itM > boots.  The Alpha can only send the VXT bootloader over MOP, it can't serve<L > the rest of the files to the VXT as far as I know.  Without the InfoSever,  > I believe you are out of luck. >   I depends how much RAM you have in the VXT. Can't remember the numbers now,oF but if you don't have enough RAM the Infoserver is required for paging from the VXT.    check the docs r   regards  -- r Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  o  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of h! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.012 ************************s <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>1 Subject: Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha? ) Message-ID: @&>    A&>    B&>    C&>    D&>    E&>    F&>    G&>    H&>    I&>    J&>    K&>    L&>    M&>    N&>    O&>    P&>    Q&>    R&>    S&>    T&>    U&>    V&>    W&>    X&>    Y&>    Z&>    [&>    \&>    ]&>    ^&>    _&>    `&>    a&>    b&>    c&>    d&>    e&>    f&>    g&>    h&>    i&>    j&>    k&>    l&>    m&>    n&>    o&>    p&>    q&>    r&>    s&>    t&>    u&>    v&>    w&>    x&>    y&>    z&>    {&>    |&>    }&>    ~&>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>    &>     '>    '>    '>    '>    '>    '>    '>    '>    '>    	'>    
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