0 INFO-VAX	Tue, 08 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 13      Contents:6 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMS
 Re: <None> Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?B Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what wentH Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrongP Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong   at DEP Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DEC( Booting from CD with a PWS 600au series?, Re: Booting from CD with a PWS 600au series?, Re: Booting from CD with a PWS 600au series?, Re: Booting from CD with a PWS 600au series?> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the C-Kermit versus ALL-IN-1 Re: C-Kermit versus ALL-IN-1/ Re: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media? ) Re: Clustering nodes at VMS 7.3 and 7.1-2 ) Re: Clustering nodes at VMS 7.3 and 7.1-2 = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" 9 Re: Converting indexed file to sequential yields unprikw?  Dave Barry Know MicroSoft  Re: Dave Barry Know MicroSoft  Re: Dave Barry Know MicroSoft  Re: Dave Barry Know MicroSoft + DECdocument PS files and Acrobat Destiller. / Re: DECdocument PS files and Acrobat Destiller. / Re: DECdocument PS files and Acrobat Destiller. / Re: DECdocument PS files and Acrobat Destiller. / Re: DECdocument PS files and Acrobat Destiller. % Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) RE: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?  Re: Emulation... GETUAI Utility and EXTAUTH Flag # Re: GETUAI Utility and EXTAUTH Flag * Re: Have folks seen this from the NY Times* Re: Have folks seen this from the NY Times* Re: Have folks seen this from the NY Times. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses. Re: Hobbyist licenses.1 how to turn off display locking due to inactivity  HSZxx Firmware Copy  HUMOR: [Fwd: early computing] = Re: Intel working on 32bit/64bit chip in case Itanium falters = Re: Intel working on 32bit/64bit chip in case Itanium falters , Re: logicals pointing to files opened by DCL, Re: MAIL/NOOLD, was: Re: BLISS pros and cons, Re: MAIL/NOOLD, was: Re: BLISS pros and cons RE: Multia help  Re: Newbie questions Re: Newbie questions Re: Newbie questions" Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????" Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????4 Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)4 Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)4 Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)( Re: Product install and installed images( Re: Product install and installed images( Re: Product install and installed images  Re: reading a VMS disk on Linux?  Re: REPLY command usage change ?O Resolving undefined symbols at link time with standard C using the CXX compiler P Re: Resolving undefined symbols at link time with standard C using the CXX compiP Re: Resolving undefined symbols at link time with standard C using the CXX compi RMS index file Re: RMS index file Re: RMS index file Re: RMS index file Re: RMS index file Re: RMS index file< Some history Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ?7 Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products P Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:   The demO Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The dem P Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demiP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demiP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The dem TP Re: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The  demise o, Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" Re: VERB and SYS.STB Re: VMS and VAX clusteringP Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceed Re: VMS future... ( Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public( Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public( Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public( Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public( Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public( Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) ? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) ? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # RE: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # RE: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha ( Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?( Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?O Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise    of c P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise of compaq 9 Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha 9 Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha 9 Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:09:12 -05002 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>? Subject: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMS 2 Message-ID: <7en_7.369$5Y4.10466@news.cpqcorp.net>  
 Newsgroup,  A I just received this, you will have to go to the web site for the L attachments that are mentioned in this email.  I have no idea why its double8 spaced again.  This will be on web sites later this week   Sue   > ______________________________________________________________  & To: OpenVMS Professionals and Managers  7 From: Compaq Accredited Professional Program - HPS Team   / Re: Recruitment of OpenVMS Beta Exam Candidates   
 Important:  L Please act on this request immediately to ensure April, 2002 availability of live exams! H Please distribute this announcement to OpenVMS professionals everywhere.  
 Greetings,  I The Compaq High Performance Server group (HPS) has launched betas for two L new Compaq Accredited Professional exams that support the OpenVMS V7 SystemsG Engineer and AlphaServer/OpenVMS V7 ASE certification designations. The 
 exams are:  F OpenVMS V7 Advanced Administration, Performance, and Support (011-450)  + OpenVMS V7 Network Administration (011-436)   J The beta exams are available, now, at Prometric Testing Centers worldwide.L The final "live" exams will be available at CAT Global Test Centers in EMEA,< as well as Prometric, following completion of the beta test.  3 Take a free beta exam. win an iPAQ color pocket PC!   I All individuals who complete (pass or fail) one or both of the above beta J exams before February 15, 2002 will qualify to win an iPAQ color pocket PCE (model H3650). At the close of the beta period for each exam, the HPS J certification program manager will randomly draw one name from each of theJ two beta test groups and award the lucky participants an iPAQ (see lotteryK terms and conditions below). So take the test(s) for free and take a chance J at winning an iPAQ. If you do not pass, then you will receive a voucher toF take the live exam for free. EMEA candidates will receive a CAT Global: voucher. All other candidates receive a Prometric voucher.  
 Time frame  K The beta exams are available now and will run to approximately February 15, H 2002. The target end date, which may change based on enrollment figures,I marks the end of the data collection period for the beta exam. Candidates K may continue to take the exam beyond the end date, since beta exams are not K retired until the live exams are available. We're expecting the exams to go  live in April 2002.   > Register now for one or both of the betas, or identify severalI colleagues/employees in your organization who are willing to participate. I Please encourage candidates to take the exam before February 15. The only J individuals who will qualify for the iPAQ lotteries are those who take the' exam(s) on or before February 15, 2002.    Who should take the beta exams?   F The beta exams are intended for OpenVMS Systems Administrators, SystemG Engineers, Service Engineers, and Pre-Sales Technical Support Engineers E within Compaq, Compaq partner, and Compaq customer organizations. The K expertise and experience levels of beta candidates may vary, from those who > have advanced OpenVMS system skills to those who have basic orD intermediate-level skills. See the Exam Preparation Guides (EPGs) atI http://www.compaq.com/certification/na/betaexam.html for a description of  the competencies being tested.  H OpenVMS professionals within Compaq, Compaq partner, and Compaq customerK organizations should be recruited, as well as OpenVMS instructors. This mix E of candidates is critical to evaluate the exam questions and define a  passing score.  J Because a range of expertise is required for the beta, it is expected thatI some candidates will not pass. However, candidates who take the beta will I become familiar with the areas where they are skilled and the areas where  they need development.  # How to prepare for the beta exam(s)   L Before you register and take an exam, review the content of the exam and theJ applicable training or documentation. This information is available in theF Exam Preparation Guide for each exam. The beta exams are "closed book"* exams. No reference materials are allowed.   Exam Preparation Guides   L The beta Exam Preparation Guides (EPGs) are attached and are also located atG http://www.compaq.com/certification/na/betaexam.html. It's important to % review the EPG before taking an exam.    What is a beta exam?  L A beta exam allows us to test the integrity of questions before we develop aI final exam. After candidates take a beta exam, we analyze the results and K the candidates' comments to select the best questions, construct equivalent 1 forms of the exam, and establish a passing score.   # Benefits to candidates and managers   ! There is no cost for a beta exam!   J Candidates who do not pass a beta exam have a better chance of passing theH live exam, since they see all the questions in the exam pool. During the@ live exam, candidates see only selected questions from the pool.  H Candidates become familiar with the areas where they are skilled and the areas where they need work.   H A candidate who does not pass a beta exam can retake the live exam at no additional cost.  E The passing score for an exam is defined several weeks after the beta L concludes. Candidates who pass a beta exam are recorded as having passed theB live exam and do not have to take it. (The test center may provideG candidates with a record of their beta results, which the certification ; program office may require, so retain any record provided.)    Time commitment   J The exam (and administration time) can take up to 4 hours depending on theL number of questions being tested. Travel time to and from the test center is additional.    Registering   J To register for the exam, call the Prometric Testing Center nearest to youJ and request the Compaq 450 and/or 436 exam (see titles above), or register% online at http://2test.com/index.jsp.   F Please register as soon as possible. Since beta exams tend to be long,F Prometric may have difficulty scheduling blocks of time for individual@ candidates. You will need the following information to register:  & Compaq badge number (Compaq employees)  L Social Security Number (If you do not have a Social Security Number, then anE ID number will be assigned. (Note: You must use this same number when " registering for all future exams.)   Company Name   Tutorial  G Before you begin an exam, you can take a tutorial at the test center to J familiarize yourself with the details of taking online Prometric exams. IfL you have not taken an online Prometric exam, you are encouraged to take thisJ tutorial. It will help you take the exam more efficiently. Time for takingH the tutorial (approximately 10 to 15 minutes) is not counted against the time you have to take the exam.   ' Comments on the exam / Candidate survey   F After you complete the exam, you can make comments on questions: theirI accuracy, appropriateness to audience, etc. You also see survey questions H before the exam. The survey is designed to help the exam team define theF final exam forms for the target audiences, so please answer the surveyK questions accurately. Taking the survey does not count against the time you  have to take the exam.  * iPAQ color PC lottery terms and conditions  K The following terms and conditions have been established for administration  of the iPAQ lotteries.  3 To qualify for the iPAQ lottery, beta participants:   L Must have gained experience selling, supporting, or using OpenVMS systems asE a system administrator, systems engineer, service engineer, pre-sales I technical support engineer, instructor, student, or other OpenVMS-related  role.   @ Must possess at least basic OpenVMS system skills and knowledge.  L Must complete the 450 and/or 436 beta exam(s) on or before February 15, 2002' at an authorized Prometric Test Center.   ? Must attempt to answer all questions presented during the exam.   E Must complete the candidate survey that is presented before the exam.   I Must provide appropriate contact information during the exam registration  process.  L Candidates can take one or both beta exams, but cannot take either exam more! than once within the beta period.   B Candidates who take both betas are eligible to participate in both) lotteries, but cannot win more than once.   B Prizes are iPAQ color pocket PCs (model H3650). If unavailable, anH equivalent value prize will be substituted. No cash substitution will be offered.  L If at least 50 participants have not taken a beta exam by February 15, 2002,J the lottery deadline for the exam may be extended at the discretion of theL program manager. The two lottery winners will be notified by phone and/or byI mail within 5 business days following each lottery, which will occur whentC Prometric makes the beta participant names available (probably laterI February). Winners have 10 business days from the date of notification tocI claim their prize, otherwise they will forfeit their prize and a new nameiJ will be selected. There is no implied obligation to notify lottery losers.  J Compaq is not responsible for beta participant names omitted by Prometric,L or related Prometric errors/omissions which may eliminate a participant from
 a lottery.  D Compaq is not responsible if Prometric cannot schedule test time forK individual candidates within the beta period, so candidates should registerC early.  L Winners are responsible for any applicable country or local tax obligations.  F These terms and conditions may be amended or elaborated by the programA manager to comply with additional corporate requirements or local  regulations.  H Please distribute this announcement to OpenVMS professionals everywhere.  < Thank you in advance for your cooperation and participation.  1 Compaq Accredited Professional Program - HPS Teamt   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:36:54 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>e Subject: Re: <None> V Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201072033330.26520-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  ! On 7 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote: _ > In article <a14rh2$20q0$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:eC > > I don't see a "lowercase" option in either Windows "ren" or VMSlB > > "rename". Do newer VMS versions maintain the case of filenames > > anyway?sG >    Window's "ren" won't do it.  You have to use a temnporary name ando >    two ren commands.  9 So you allege that the session log below didn't happen???p  ' Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]p' (C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.s   C:\>copy con FOO.BAR ^Z         1 file(s) copied.e   C:\>REN FOO.BAR foo.bari   C:\>dir foo.bar $  Volume in drive C is Shimo-Tomobiki"  Volume Serial Number is 0040-B7D5    Directory of C:\l  . 01/07/2002  08:34 PM                 0 foo.bar-                1 File(s)              0 bytes 2                0 Dir(s)     543,054,848 bytes free   C:\>  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrcoF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:42:28 -0500g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSw, Message-ID: <3C3A1643.63139A25@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:L > If someone were to ask me to provide an alternative to CDE, I would likelyJ > have to go with Gnome.  It has less to do with functionality or look andJ > feel - but with my gut instinct on which environment will be more widelyK > used in Linux/UNIX.  KDE appears to have a small and loyal following, buta3 > Gnome is getting backing from companies like SUN.     	 Question:r  F On my VAX VMS 7.2 with Motif, what is the name of the user interface ?  L And how different, both from cosmetic point of view and deep down are Gnome,J KDE etc from what I have on my VAX right now ? Is it correct to state that they also use X-windows ?t  J If I create/term on a machine that had CDE to open a window on my VAX thatK doesn't have CDE, what happens ?  Does the same happen with GNOME and KDE ?t   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 16:25:35 -0600f+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)e% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSt3 Message-ID: <q9QUk+dOJu43@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  c In article <f0QXmImC+Z+u@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:r^ > In article <3C238CA1.97BB3778@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >> John Santos wrote:fJ >>> more than once.  To do the same on VMS or Unix, you need to explicitlyG >>> copy it to the buffer (i.e. select EDIT and then COPY from the menu H >>> bar.)  On the other hand, you can highlight/copy any number of timesB >>> in VMS/Unix without wiping out your cut/paste buffer, which is# >>> great for one-shot cut&pastes. t >> tK >> The one interface drawback I have found with X-windows compared to a MAC Q >> (Windows is just a MAC wannabe), is the lack of a single keystroke to copy and:" >> paste the text from the buffer. > F >    The only problem I have with X is not being able to cut and pasteH >    between Notes on Eisner and anything else.  Somehow notes won't let( >    me select text in a DECterm window. >   D NOTES has the same features as TPU/EVE.  Type TPU SET(MOUSE,OFF) on B the notes command line and cut and paste should be back to normal.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 23:45:19 GMTn= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)m% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <00A07B33.EB0234E8@SendSpamHere.ORG>  a In article <q9QUk+dOJu43@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) writes:l {...snip...}E >NOTES has the same features as TPU/EVE.  Type TPU SET(MOUSE,OFF) on  C >the notes command line and cut and paste should be back to normal.e  I Is there anything akin to a NOTES.INI file to establish this by virtue ofnH simply running NOTES?  In otherwords, how can TPU SET(MOUSE,OFF) be made the default mode?d --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            wJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 06:21:52 +0100i2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSe; Message-ID: <3c3a81f0.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>   . JF Mezei (jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca) wrote: > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:N > > If someone were to ask me to provide an alternative to CDE, I would likelyL > > have to go with Gnome.  It has less to do with functionality or look andL > > feel - but with my gut instinct on which environment will be more widelyM > > used in Linux/UNIX.  KDE appears to have a small and loyal following, but 5 > > Gnome is getting backing from companies like SUN.u >c > Question:k >nH > On my VAX VMS 7.2 with Motif, what is the name of the user interface ?   DECwindows/Motif  E "Session Manager" (the old desktop) and CDE are just window managers.n Likewise Gnome and KDE are.:  N > And how different, both from cosmetic point of view and deep down are Gnome,0 > KDE etc from what I have on my VAX right now ?  L Window managers do what the name says: they manage (windows on) the desktop.5 And they provide one or more ways to launch programs.u  7 > Is it correct to state that they also use X-windows ?    Yes.  L > If I create/term on a machine that had CDE to open a window on my VAX thatM > doesn't have CDE, what happens ?  Does the same happen with GNOME and KDE ?h  G Your window manager provides a frame. What the application does in thato. frame is not influenced by the window manager.  L Even cut-and-paste is implemented in the X Windows protocol, and thus should work cross-window-manager.   cu,Q   Martin -- eG So long, and thanks        | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmert4 for all the books...       | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deK In Memoriam Douglas Adams  |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/-;             1952-2001      | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de5   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:06:32 +0100a, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>! Subject: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?w& Message-ID: <3C39F1B9.53F419B2@gmx.ch>   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:o > 7 > Hi. Not 100% sure, but if this box is the same as thei6 > "AlphaStation 600A Model 5/xxx", then it seems so...  , It did :-) well, it tried to. See next post.   D. -- _G   ---------------------------------------------------------------------ME MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmloE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670 / 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.e  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:16:32 +0100 , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>! Subject: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?r& Message-ID: <3C39F410.C7D21DE6@gmx.ch>  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote: > 
 > Why not?  H Because I have a bugcheck and many many years of booting experiences and friendship with Murphy :-)   >>> sh dev d  & dka0.0.0.1009.0			DKA0			RZ1CC-BA 883F( dka100.1.0.1009.0		DKA100		RZ1CC-BA 883F2 dqa0.0.0.4.0			DQA0			TOSHIBA CD-ROM XM-6102B 1106 dva0.0.0.0.1			DVA0c  
 >>> b dqa0 ../..OpenVMS blablabla V7.2    *** BUGCHECK ***P a device in the boot line or in the BOOT_DEV (???) cannot be found in the config table.   CONFIG DEVICE NOT FOUND . ignoring the device and not loading the driver   (and it loops)  
 Questions:O 1. Maybe I have an external BA35x missing? (should not prevent VMS to boot froma CD, should it?)n  O 2. again, the system was running LINUX. Maybe there is some obscure and not FAQiG documented command to tell the SRM to forget about lurking LINUX stuff?s  2 3. Firmware update (to 5.7) failed (see next post)     D. --  G   ---------------------------------------------------------------------EE MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmleE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670e/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.   H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:26:48 +0100 , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>! Subject: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?i& Message-ID: <3C39F679.6C8F24FE@gmx.ch>   Phillip Helbig wrote:o > 3 > As usual, make sure you have the latest firmware.t  A I tried but the menu said ERROR when I asked for the ROM control.t> I cycled the power then retried. It succeeded the second time.  ) Now, when I boot I have a better message:   % "failed to send read to DQA0.0.0.4.0"5   and the exact error message is:a  + CFG_DEV_NOT_FOUND-F-Config device not foundn (then)9 Console pathname IDE 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 ID = 00000000.06461095n   Hoff?e   D. --  G   ---------------------------------------------------------------------gE MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmlyE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670o/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.e  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:28:17 +0100i, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>! Subject: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?a& Message-ID: <3C39F6D2.78A9CEB4@gmx.ch>   Bob Ceculski wrote:a > - > I think the "au" model is the vms model ...u  / It is an "au" model. It is said at SRM startup.a   D. -- tG   ---------------------------------------------------------------------tE MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmlmE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670 / 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.t  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:06:18 GMT " From: LBohan <JoeBloggs@127.0.0.1>! Subject: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?a: Message-ID: <e5o_7.5847$He.100921@sea-read.news.verio.net>  9 On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:26:48 -0800, Didier Morandi wrote:    > Phillip Helbig wrote:  >> e4 >> As usual, make sure you have the latest firmware. > E > I tried but the menu said ERROR when I asked for the ROM control. Ih> > cycled the power then retried. It succeeded the second time. > + > Now, when I boot I have a better message:a > ' > "failed to send read to DQA0.0.0.4.0"  > ! > and the exact error message is:  > I > CFG_DEV_NOT_FOUND-F-Config device not found (then) Console pathname IDEc& > 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 ID = 00000000.06461095 >  > Hoff?h >  > D.  
 BOOTFLAGS ?  l  0 I recall that u**x alphas usually have this set 2 to something strange, not compatible w/ VMS boots.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 22:12:46 +0100o, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>! Subject: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? & Message-ID: <3C3A0F4F.433AE825@gmx.ch>  
 LBohan wrote:n > 
 > BOOTFLAGS ?t > 1 > I recall that u**x alphas usually have this setm4 > to something strange, not compatible w/ VMS boots.  	 Well, no.kP As Hoff stated VMS is not recommended on a -a series system and anyway both haveL an INTEL chip. So I'm stuck until I find a SCSI CD-ROM drive that I will not find... :-(   2 Looks like Santa Claus is playing with his life...   D.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:39:21 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>iK Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what wentgV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201072039110.26520-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  ! On 7 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:mD >    I was taught that K&R described C as "for modern byte oriented" >    computers.    Page number, please.  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrcaF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:45:17 -0500a' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net>nQ Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong * Message-ID: <3C3A4F2D.A2F7B37B@Empire.Net>  4 I was quite mistaken about the lack of a port of EDT to TOPS-20.e%     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:44:15 -0500P' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong   at DEi* Message-ID: <3C3A4EEF.24FC91B8@Empire.Net>   Alan Greig wrote (in part):v  / Then it does appear absolutely astonishing you i wouldn't know!   John Sauter responded:  4 And I remain astonished that I didn't find out until2 16 years later that EDT had been ported to TOPS-206 in 1985, even though I worked on TOPS-20 software from4 1975 to 1978, and on EDT from 1981 to 1983.  I think3 if we had all stayed in the Mill I would have founds out about the port sooner.%     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:31:58 -0800+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>eY Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DECrV Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201072019190.26520-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  ! On 7 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:rJ >    BLISS can handle non-byte oriented computers, something K&R claimed C >    wasn't trying to do.t  G Where does K&R say that?  I'm not saying that such a statement isn't insH K&R (although I don't recall it), but it would be quite surprising sinceC one of the earliest ports of C was to a non-byte oriented computer.   G >    I've seen C compilers for PDP-10, so it is possible to ignore K&R,c, >    but I don't think a lot of copies sold,  1 The C compilers for the PDP-10 were all freeware.t   >    and most existing C codes9 >    assumes char = byte and even numbers of char to int.e  2 Only C code written by baby programmers does that.  G It is not at all difficult to write C code that will compile and run oni9 the PDP-10.  All you have to do is follow the C standard.   H It is not significantly more difficult to port UNIX C code to the PDP-10F than it is to port UNIX C code to Windows, with one exception: I don'tG think that anyone wrote a sockets library for the PDP-10.  However, theyJ native TOPS-20 TCP/IP interface is easier to program than sockets (even inI C) so you just comment out the few hundred lines of UNIX code for socketso8 and replace it with a dozen or so lines of TOPS-20 code.  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrchF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:17:05 +0100o, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>1 Subject: Booting from CD with a PWS 600au series?i% Message-ID: <3C3A0241.7131ED2@gmx.ch>p  O As you already know, my wife got in Toulouse an ALPHA 600au for Christmas, withP@ some problems. I hope we will solve them before she calls me :-)  L I had the chance to get the same Digital Personal Workstation 600au but mineK starts an alphabios menu (version 5.70 that I just updated) instead of SRM.e  N I do not find the right choice to tell the system to forget about OS selection= and just boot my Hobbyist CD, or just give me the SRM prompt.a   Thanks,p   D.   -- eG   ---------------------------------------------------------------------.E MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmlhE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670 / 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.t  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:40:15 GMTo2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)5 Subject: Re: Booting from CD with a PWS 600au series?r2 Message-ID: <PIn_7.371$5Y4.10570@news.cpqcorp.net>  T In article <3C3A0241.7131ED2@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:  M :I had the chance to get the same Digital Personal Workstation 600au but mine L :starts an alphabios menu (version 5.70 that I just updated) instead of SRM. :hO :I do not find the right choice to tell the system to forget about OS selection6> :and just boot my Hobbyist CD, or just give me the SRM prompt.  C   Cool, a chance to use one of my favorite references!  To the FAQ,:   of course!  < ------------------------------------------------------------@ ALPHA21. How do I switch between AlphaBIOS/ARC and SRM consoles?  G The specific steps required vary by system.  You must first ensure that G the particular Alpha system is supported by OpenVMS (see the SPD), thatsG all core I/O components (graphics, disk controllers, etc) in the systemt   ..      N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:54:10 +0100o, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>5 Subject: Re: Booting from CD with a PWS 600au series?N& Message-ID: <3C3A0AF3.6B9E28F1@gmx.ch>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:n  E >   Cool, a chance to use one of my favorite references!  To the FAQ,  >   of course!   hahaha!t You got me.oM Unfortunately as I'm home, I had no chance to use my DCL searching tool. So In will go to the COMPAQ web page.r  6 thanks and... a happy new year to you and all VMS Eng.   D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:09:32 GMTE" From: LBohan <JoeBloggs@127.0.0.1>5 Subject: Re: Booting from CD with a PWS 600au series?t: Message-ID: <g8o_7.5848$He.100974@sea-read.news.verio.net>  9 On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:17:05 -0800, Didier Morandi wrote:M  A > As you already know, my wife got in Toulouse an ALPHA 600au forQE > Christmas, with some problems. I hope we will solve them before she. > calls me :-) > I > I had the chance to get the same Digital Personal Workstation 600au butBJ > mine starts an alphabios menu (version 5.70 that I just updated) instead	 > of SRM.o > F > I do not find the right choice to tell the system to forget about OSI > selection and just boot my Hobbyist CD, or just give me the SRM prompt.n > 	 > Thanks,O >  > D.  / I had a bad ROM battery on a 500au that led me  . to a similar problem after upgrading the BIOS.  9 (3V lithium, CR2032, avail at most camera shops, ~$7 USD)t  ' the system defaulted to AlphaBios, and d* the (vga) graphics display was 'scrambled' but somewhat readable.  & the menu option to change to SRM boot,' was tied to a function key (F10, F20?).e  % it took some work to figure out what  ( combination of keystrokes were needed to  generate a Fnn (ESC + mumble).    ) iirc, I did some web searches, and found e$ some XTerm key mappings that helped.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 10:47:07 -0800 + From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>lG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thea) Message-ID: <a1cqfb017e5@drn.newsguy.com>H  M In article <sJsqVfwoEmbR@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org  says...D >0P >In article <3C369287.6080901@tsoft-inc.com>, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> >writes: >> n >> An AST delivery?y. >> An interupt caused by 'end of run quantum'? >> The list is long. >> yL >> Actually, I'm not a HW person, and aren't really sure that an in-process I >> instruction can be interupted.  However, there can be things delaying s >> the next add instruction. >> g >TD >   Interrupts are delivered "between" instructions, not during one. >d  E ??? On what architecture?  On a VAX your statment is simply not true.E@ You most certainly can have an interrupt delivered during a longB MOVC3, for example.  The MOVC3 will be interrupted partway throughJ the copy, the interrupt routine will execute, and the MOVC3 operation will  continue from where it left off.  = Some instructions are guaranteed to be non-interruptable: youuK obviously don't want someone else stepping in while you're doing an INSQUE,1E for example.  Read Chapter 3 of your VAX ARM to see what's guaranteed  to be non-interruptable.  H This is bread-and-butter stuff for kernel and device-driver writing, but= it does come into play in "regular user" multiprocessing too.a   Tim.   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Jan 2002 04:20:00 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for theb0 Message-ID: <87pu4lud5b.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  * peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:  = > 	5. Provide a secondary processor to handle interrupts (OneM? > 	company, I think it was Altos, did this to get demand paginge8 > 	on a 68000: they ran two CPUs in lockstep and had the3 > 	"trailing" CPU take over and handle page faults.D  G Apollo. The early 68000s could have faults that could not be re-started E from the save info. Think the 020 was the first one that got it righto( enough to not need wonderous crutches...   -- c< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.m@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:08:38 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>uG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thek4 Message-ID: <I0o_7.1157$Pe5.196361@news1.iquest.net>  d "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message news:87pu4lud5b.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com..., > peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: > > > > 5. Provide a secondary processor to handle interrupts (One@ > > company, I think it was Altos, did this to get demand paging9 > > on a 68000: they ran two CPUs in lockstep and had thea4 > > "trailing" CPU take over and handle page faults. > I > Apollo. The early 68000s could have faults that could not be re-startedaG > from the save info. Think the 020 was the first one that got it right:* > enough to not need wonderous crutches... > C Wasn't the 68010 the upgrade that allowed for some limited handling-
 of VM faults?o   John   ------------------------------    Date: 07 Jan 2002 14:22:18 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thel0 Message-ID: <qhbsg594yt.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  . Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:I > Apollo. The early 68000s could have faults that could not be re-started0G > from the save info. Think the 020 was the first one that got it right * > enough to not need wonderous crutches...  A Actually the 68010 did.  It was the first 68k to dump substantialtH internal processor state onto the stack for a bus error or address errorD exception, and allow instruction resumption.  The handler can eitherC fix the condition that caused the bus error and allow the processorC@ to restart the faulted memory access, or the handler can use theH address and data fields in the fault stack frame to complete or simulateD the access, then set a bit in the frame such that the processor will8 consider the access to have been completed successfully.  B I used the later capability to write an address error handler thatE allowed executing non-word-aligned instruction streams.  Very slowly.V   ------------------------------    Date: 07 Jan 2002 14:22:52 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>uG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the.0 Message-ID: <qh7kqt94xv.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>   "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:-E > Wasn't the 68010 the upgrade that allowed for some limited handling  > of VM faults?e  * Full handling.  No particular limitations.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 16:38:27 -0500n& From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)! Subject: C-Kermit versus ALL-IN-1 1 Message-ID: <a1d4gj$ocb$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>a  4 Does anybody out there still use (or have) ALL-IN-1?  K Some years ago, as people started to try using C-Kermit under more and more K different VMS environments (interactive, DCL, Batch, spawned, captive, in a7J mailbox, within ALL-IN-1, etc) more and more adaptations had to be made toI get it to recognize which kind of environment it was in, so it would knowuL how to treat the terminal, whether to echo commands, etc.  These adaptationsH became increasingly complicated and error-prone, to the extent that when
 C-Kermit 8.0:   -   http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ckermit.htmlr  K was released a few weeks ago, it turned out to be just about totally brokenl for batch use and when spawned.   K Because of this and a couple other bugs that surfaced after the 8.0 release-J (despite a year of beta testing that never turned them up), we'll probablyI be issuing a quick update.  A candidate for this updated release is here:l  1   ftp://kermit.columbia.edu/kermit/test/tar/x.zip1  G ("unzip -a" to unpack, and you'll need a C compiler to build it.)  This,F version has been verified to work interactively, in DCL, in batch, andL spawned, but not yet in some of the more esoteric environments like ALL-IN-1
 or DECintact.   H If anybody out there can please try it in these or any other strange VMSL environments you might have access to, I'd appreciate hearing back from you.L If all is well, we can go ahead with the update; otherwise further fixing is needed.t   Thanks!p  
 Frank da Cruz  The Kermit Project Columbia University- http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/A   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:17:37 -0500c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>4% Subject: Re: C-Kermit versus ALL-IN-1 , Message-ID: <3C3A48A1.7EF80549@videotron.ca>   Frank da Cruz wrote:I > ("unzip -a" to unpack, and you'll need a C compiler to build it.)  ThislH > version has been verified to work interactively, in DCL, in batch, andN > spawned, but not yet in some of the more esoteric environments like ALL-IN-1 > or DECintact.3  J Do you mean using  kermit from the "standard" ALL-IN-1 subprocess with the fake $ sign  ?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:21:28 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>u8 Subject: Re: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media?$ Message-ID: <3c3a1f6e$1@news.si.com>  # >If your 85XX tape unit cannot readwH >the 8200 tapes now, the most probable issues are that the unit may haveH >8200 mode disabled in the unit configuration (Unlikely but possible), a2 >firmware issue, or you have an alignment problem.  L I have four 8505s (reported by VMS as EXABYTE EXB-85058SQANXBP) that can allE read and write tapes among themselves, which tends to reduce the ideasK there's a misalignment problem.  When I mount an 8200-written, labeled tapeeG in any of the 8505s, no label is detected.  The same holds true for theg other direction.  G How can I determine if the 8200 mode is disabled or if there might be awK firmware issue?  The 8505s are all in Storageworks cannisers and mounted in  SW shelves.m --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comtA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.come= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventt< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 00:24:57 GMTa$ From: "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org>2 Subject: Re: Clustering nodes at VMS 7.3 and 7.1-2< Message-ID: <t%q_7.19423$yC.2097974@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>   Hi Lee,C  L I've got a 6-node (all AXP) cluster.  I upgraded the first node in July, theJ second in early November, the 3rd mid-November, the 4th in early December,H and the last 2 a week or so later.  The only issues I've found so far isF that the OpenVMS Management Station fails to start during boot (easilyL worked around), I've had quite a few crashes in the Management Station (callE to be logged soon) and one bugcheck (Compaq has escalated this one tohL Engineering).  Overall, I've been satisfied but it's certainly not as stable as what I'm used to seeing.a  L My cluster is distributed with redundant Gigaswitches in each data center, aL CI in each datacenter, and multiple NI paths between data centers.  All dataH is locally RAID-5 on HSJ-50 controllers, and host-based shadowed between
 data centers.h  
     .../Ed  L p.s. I talked to you a few years back when I still in Victoria (remember theL Stingray fiascos?).  That cluster has recently passed 2000 days of uptime (IF started the run going and my successor has kept it going).  My current! cluster is up to 2.5 years uptimea   -- Ed Wilts Mounds View, MN, USA mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org1 "Lee Y T Mah" <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote in message # news:3C39EA09.5E5FAFDF@cha.ab.ca...kJ > Can anyone provide feedback on having ES45' at 7.3 and AS1200's at 7.1-2< > in a production cluster?  Has it been reliable and stable?  = > Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authority A > Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC 6 > Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NWA > Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9i   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 00:53:23 GMTI From: joell@mindspring.com2 Subject: Re: Clustering nodes at VMS 7.3 and 7.1-2. Message-ID: <3c3a4277.9357527@news.alltel.net>  D Mix version clusters are supported but, I have never worked with oneB in my career. The only time I have seen one is during an operatingF system upgrade. It is usually best to match versions in a cluster. You6 should have no problem updating to 7.3 on all systems.    B On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:33:46 -0700, Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> wrote:  I >Can anyone provide feedback on having ES45' at 7.3 and AS1200's at 7.1-2d; >in a production cluster?  Has it been reliable and stable?  >TIA.m >  >--t >Lee >t< >Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authority@ >Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC5 >Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NWI@ >Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9 >t >n   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:50:34 GMTD4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>F Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders: Message-ID: <uSn_7.714$DG5.1620@rwcrnsc53.ops.asp.att.net>  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message * news:87advqvjq7.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com...8 > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: > J > > Well, that sorta kinda is what happened to Eckhard Pfeiffer, isn't it? ;-}  >iL > No, EP was caught selling his shares just before reporting an income fall.: > Very, very against the rulels there. (Getting caught...)  K I remember well the comeuppance Eckhard and Friends received. Remember somepI of the surrounding details? These folks were off singing "Happy Happy JoynH Joy" to all and sundry whilst dumping shares and watching Key IndicatorsG fall into the toilet. With the shares sold, they then began SELECTIVELYoK informing certain Wall Street analysts that Houston Had a Problem. When thenJ OTHER analysts (excluded from the early tip-offs) learned of this perfidy,9 there was much angst. And thus what happened, happened...-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:12:34 -0500r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>0F Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders, Message-ID: <3C3A1D4E.5AFE30A8@videotron.ca>   David Mathog wrote:AP > My understanding of this was that he was the only dissenting vote on the BOD - > so the mergerkN > was going to go ahead with or without his support.  If he voted YES then the > termsa? > the merger would be more favorable to HP than if he voted NO.    I understand the mechanics.e  L However, if you are opposed to a merger, why should you help it go through ?J Had he voted NO, perhaps other board members would have reconsidered theirM votes as well and also voted NO and perhaps the whole deal would be forgottenaE and Carly told to go fix the company instead of try to get a wedding.   N If a board member believes that it is in the best interest of shareholders NOTL to have the merger, then he should have voted NO with the intent to make theM merger more costly and thus less attractive and decrease the chances it would- go through.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:18:22 -0500I- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms", Message-ID: <3C3A1EAA.7289301A@videotron.ca>   WILLIAM WEBB wrote:s > : > I too believe that Messrs. Marcello, Winkler and (nobody8 > mentioned) Gorham are doing the best they can with the9 > resources that the company is allocating for their use.i  N I think you have a misconception here.  Winkler is the "enemy" , is is the oneE who consistently states that Windows will replace mainframes etc etc.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:50:47 -0500-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> B Subject: Re: Converting indexed file to sequential yields unprikw?, Message-ID: <3C3A1835.CE111220@videotron.ca>   briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:EB > If you need strict binary compatibility and have variable lengthI > records, you'll need to decide how you're going to port the out-of-band H > end-of-record information from the VMS side into the in-band technique! > you have chosen on the PC side.A  M Wait a minute, can't he just use FTP to transfer the indexed file and it will-P end up as a text file on the PC without the need for a CONVERT on the VMS side ?  J Doesn't FTP look at the remote host and only transfer "VMS style" when theM other host identifies itself as a VMS host, ortherwise, it transfers only the2B record from files and not the index and other control structures ?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:58:08 -07003 From: "David D Miller" <ddmiller@west.raytheon.com>e" Subject: Dave Barry Know MicroSoftF Message-ID: <OFB34BE20C.C84501BC-ON07256B3A.0072B4F8@rsc.raytheon.com>  	 Hey Gang.r  D If Dave Barry "get's it", why can your average CIO?  Read the entire
 article at  F http://www.miami.com/herald/special/features/barry/2002/docs/jan06.htm   dave.D    C .....  At least once per day, without fail, my computer, like everyaK computer I have ever owned, has some kind of emotional breakdown. It simplytK stops working -- often when I'm not touching it -- and it puts a message on H the screen informing me that an error has occurred. It does not say whatG the error is, nor where it occurred. For all I know, it occurred in New K Zealand, and my computer found out about it via the Internet, and became soh" upset that it could not go on. ...   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 01:27:22 GMTc' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> & Subject: Re: Dave Barry Know MicroSoft+ Message-ID: <3C3A4BB6.93F36FDC@pacbell.net>r  G I saw that on St. I've been a fan for years. I especially like the part  where he says:  H "Needless to say, I use Microsoft Windows. I've been a loyal Windows manG since the first version, which required you to write on the screen with H crayons. Every year or so, Microsoft comes out with a new version, whichE Microsoft always swears is better and more reliable, and I always buyeE it. I bought Windows 2.0, Windows 3.0, Windows 3.1415926, Windows 95,tB Windows 98, Windows ME, Windows RSVP, The Best of Windows, WindowsG Strikes Back, Windows Does Dallas, and Windows Let's All Buy Bill Gatesi a House the Size of Vermont."o   Dave knows MicroCrap.p   David D Miller wrote:" >  > Hey Gang.t > F > If Dave Barry "get's it", why can your average CIO?  Read the entire > article at > H > http://www.miami.com/herald/special/features/barry/2002/docs/jan06.htm >  > dave.e > E > .....  At least once per day, without fail, my computer, like every M > computer I have ever owned, has some kind of emotional breakdown. It simply M > stops working -- often when I'm not touching it -- and it puts a message on J > the screen informing me that an error has occurred. It does not say whatI > the error is, nor where it occurred. For all I know, it occurred in NewpM > Zealand, and my computer found out about it via the Internet, and became sob$ > upset that it could not go on. ...   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:44:39 +1300 From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz>8& Subject: Re: Dave Barry Know MicroSoft- Message-ID: <k7s_7.4$Qz1.966@news.xtra.co.nz>   > "David D Miller" <ddmiller@west.raytheon.com> wrote in message@ news:OFB34BE20C.C84501BC-ON07256B3A.0072B4F8@rsc.raytheon.com...   >5E > .....  At least once per day, without fail, my computer, like every C > computer I have ever owned, has some kind of emotional breakdown.tJ >It does not say what the error is, nor where it occurred. For all I know, > it occurred in New Zealand  > I rather doubt THAT one :) For all I know it must have occured; somewhere with at least 95 (or is it 98?) windows in place.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 22:30:31 -0500 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>0& Subject: Re: Dave Barry Know MicroSoft2 Message-ID: <3C3A67D6.DDFD0355@firstdbasource.com>   Now THAT's funny!!     David D Miller wrote:e >  > Hey Gang.a > F > If Dave Barry "get's it", why can your average CIO?  Read the entire > article at > H > http://www.miami.com/herald/special/features/barry/2002/docs/jan06.htm >  > dave.u > E > .....  At least once per day, without fail, my computer, like every M > computer I have ever owned, has some kind of emotional breakdown. It simplypM > stops working -- often when I'm not touching it -- and it puts a message on J > the screen informing me that an error has occurred. It does not say whatI > the error is, nor where it occurred. For all I know, it occurred in NewtM > Zealand, and my computer found out about it via the Internet, and became so $ > upset that it could not go on. ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:06:43 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>24 Subject: DECdocument PS files and Acrobat Destiller.' Message-ID: <3C39F1C3.D842DC2B@aaa.com>t   Hi.0/ I'm currently setting up my DECdoc environment.n4 Since DECdoc don't have any direct PDF creation tool3 I tried to feed the PS files into Acrobat Destillerc" on my PC. Destiller answers with :     Source: manual_sample.ps7   %%[ Error: limitcheck; OffendingCommand: findfont ]%%g     Stack:   /Font@   (NewCenturySchlbk-Bold)l  @   %%[ Flushing: rest of job (to end-of-file) will be ignored ]%%;   %%[ Warning: PostScript error. No PDF file produced. ] %%e  ? Seems to be some problem with the NewCenturySchlbk-Bold font !?n  0 Anyone else producing PDF's from DECdoc output ?   Regardsd Jan-Erik Sderholm.8   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 13:42:00 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)w8 Subject: Re: DECdocument PS files and Acrobat Destiller.3 Message-ID: <QeWg6F6M$UML@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  c In article <3C39F1C3.D842DC2B@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:e > Hi.s1 > I'm currently setting up my DECdoc environment.n6 > Since DECdoc don't have any direct PDF creation tool5 > I tried to feed the PS files into Acrobat Destiller $ > on my PC. Destiller answers with : >  >   Source: manual_sample.ps9 >   %%[ Error: limitcheck; OffendingCommand: findfont ]%%  > 
 >   Stack:	 >   /Font- >   (NewCenturySchlbk-Bold)n > B >   %%[ Flushing: rest of job (to end-of-file) will be ignored ]%%= >   %%[ Warning: PostScript error. No PDF file produced. ] %%i > A > Seems to be some problem with the NewCenturySchlbk-Bold font !?< > 2 > Anyone else producing PDF's from DECdoc output ?  # Yes, using Acrobat V2 on Macintosh.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:00:56 +0100-9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>n8 Subject: Re: DECdocument PS files and Acrobat Destiller.' Message-ID: <3C39FE78.B53B28B6@aaa.com>c   OK.s I found a workaround. 9 I installed the full Ghostscript kit and setup the devicee< PDFWRITE. So now I compose the SDML file into PS and convert to PDF in one script.M  . So now I'll go on with my OSU server manual...   Jan-Erik Sderholm.,   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > e > In article <3C39F1C3.D842DC2B@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:u > >o4 > > Anyone else producing PDF's from DECdoc output ? > % > Yes, using Acrobat V2 on Macintosh.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:25:29 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 8 Subject: Re: DECdocument PS files and Acrobat Destiller., Message-ID: <3C3A2054.F96A1CD6@videotron.ca>   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:n >   Source: manual_sample.ps9 >   %%[ Error: limitcheck; OffendingCommand: findfont ]%%n > 
 >   Stack:	 >   /Font) >   (NewCenturySchlbk-Bold)a    N You have to make sure that any fonts that are not embedded into the postscriptK file are available to the Distiller. Generally, you'd have a directory thatCL contains all the postscript fonts and you'd take that font and copy it there1 so that distiller can embed it into the PDF file.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:28:40 -0500y- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>y8 Subject: Re: DECdocument PS files and Acrobat Destiller., Message-ID: <3C3A2113.7AC8E654@videotron.ca>   oh, another thing:  J if you are using Windows to play with real postcript, you should note thatI there are often some hidden font substitutions in the registry that causedH problems. For instance, there is often an entry that remaps Helvetica toF Arial, so real postscript applications will complain about the lack ofK Helvetica even though you installed the real helvetica font on the machine. O (took me very long to find out why an application would make such a complaint).i  N You might want to do a search of your registry to see if there is a mention ofL newCentury Schoolbook in there. (as well as looking as the obvious places in the control panels for fonts).   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 17:15:25 -0800t( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski). Subject: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201071715.502e4e6d@posting.google.com>u  B I'm just curious with all the posts on this board seeking help for? VMS questions or problems from people who work for companies orw> institutions of higher learning ... do you have a VMS softwareB support contract and do you ever use it?  Bronze level support canI be bought for roughly $700/year compared to $1700/year for NT support ...a what a bargain!p   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 01:34:40 GMTp1 From: Ed Wensell III <ewensell3@yahoo.commercial>s2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?0 Message-ID: <3C3A4C9C.2BEB5D5B@yahoo.commercial>   Bob Ceculski wrote:h > D > I'm just curious with all the posts on this board seeking help forA > VMS questions or problems from people who work for companies ore@ > institutions of higher learning ... do you have a VMS softwareD > support contract and do you ever use it?  Bronze level support canK > be bought for roughly $700/year compared to $1700/year for NT support ...2 > what a bargain!E  	 <sarcasm>r3 Have you tried navigating the phone maze lately? :)9
 </sarcasm>  F Seriously, sometimes it's easier/faster to get answers to non-criticalE problems here. Actually, I usually hit http://www.dejanews.com first.4  G If it's a critical 'oh my gawd, the system is crashed and management iseG screaming', support gets the call first. If it's a simple 'my users aredD slightly inconvenienced, but can work around it' or a 'I'm tinkeringC with this offline box', I hit http://www.dejanews.com first, post ai question second.   -- r Ed Wensell IIIE NetBSD/Alpha at home - Solaris/SPARC at work - OpenVMS in a past life A E-mail address is valid if you know the appropriate bits to drop.i   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 01:31:26 GMTn2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?2 Message-ID: <OZr_7.379$5Y4.10971@news.cpqcorp.net>  h In article <d7791aa1.0201071715.502e4e6d@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:C :I'm just curious with all the posts on this board seeking help for.@ :VMS questions or problems from people who work for companies or? :institutions of higher learning ... do you have a VMS software * :support contract and do you ever use it?      No and No, respectively.  :-)s  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 22:12:32 -05001- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?, Message-ID: <3C3A6389.541D6792@videotron.ca>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:IA > :institutions of higher learning ... do you have a VMS software1+ > :support contract and do you ever use it?  > ! >   No and No, respectively.  :-)   L So Hoff, if you don't have support contracts for VMS, how do you fix the VMS, problems that they tell you you should fix ?  K Imagine  the fun you'd have if you called support for help whenever supporti called you for help :-)p   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 22:20:12 -0500e1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>t2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?2 Message-ID: <3C3A656C.AF1FB2C2@firstdbasource.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:n > j > In article <d7791aa1.0201071715.502e4e6d@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:E > :I'm just curious with all the posts on this board seeking help foraB > :VMS questions or problems from people who work for companies orA > :institutions of higher learning ... do you have a VMS software + > :support contract and do you ever use it?  > ! >   No and No, respectively.  :-)w >   6 Now that's not funny Hoff....  you don't count... :), F But, the same answer goes for me.  No and No.  My little company can't afford $700/year....yet.   -- y   Regards,   Michael Austin7 First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.come President/Sr. DBA Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)1 704-236-4377 (Mobile)t   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:32:52 -07008$ From: Lee Y T Mah <lytmah@cha.ab.ca>2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?) Message-ID: <3C3A7674.D10B2274@cha.ab.ca>t  K I have Silver support and I use it extensively.  However, it never hurts to D get the benefit of experience from other VMS users to complement the assistance from Compaq Support.t   Bob Ceculski wrote:   D > I'm just curious with all the posts on this board seeking help forA > VMS questions or problems from people who work for companies oro@ > institutions of higher learning ... do you have a VMS softwareD > support contract and do you ever use it?  Bronze level support canK > be bought for roughly $700/year compared to $1700/year for NT support ...W > what a bargain!l   -- Leed  ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authority ? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC-4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9:   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:32:03 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>2 Subject: RE: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?- Message-ID: <0033000047055135000002L052*@MHS>t  / =0AI can wholeheartedly and without reservation   recommend Compaq's Gold Support.   They're as good as Hoff.  $ But he's got a drier sense of humor.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETw& Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 8:37 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET2 Subject: RE: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?     Bob Ceculski wrote:t >aD > I'm just curious with all the posts on this board seeking help forA > VMS questions or problems from people who work for companies or @ > institutions of higher learning ... do you have a VMS softwareD > support contract and do you ever use it?  Bronze level support canH > be bought for roughly $700/year compared to $1700/year for NT support=  ... > what a bargain!,  	 <sarcasm>13 Have you tried navigating the phone maze lately? :)t
 </sarcasm>  F Seriously, sometimes it's easier/faster to get answers to non-criticalE problems here. Actually, I usually hit http://www.dejanews.com first.h  H If it's a critical 'oh my gawd, the system is crashed and management is=  H screaming', support gets the call first. If it's a simple 'my users are=  D slightly inconvenienced, but can work around it' or a 'I'm tinkeringC with this offline box', I hit http://www.dejanews.com first, post aa question second.   -- Ed Wensell IIIE NetBSD/Alpha at home - Solaris/SPARC at work - OpenVMS in a past life<B E-mail address is valid if you know the appropriate bits to drop.=   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:21:26 -0500; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>b Subject: Re: Emulation...e$ Message-ID: <3c3a2d7b$1@news.si.com>  I >The full function CHARON-VAX products emulate a MicroVAX 3600 with 64 MBmJ >memory and include Ethernet adapter emulation (DELQA, DESQA, DEQNA, etc).  D Are PCI-based devices in the PC available to the VAX emulation?  ForL example, if I have a PCI-based IEEE 488 or 1553 interface card, can I access it within the emulation? --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comnA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.coma= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 22:26:32 GMT-) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton)8( Subject: GETUAI Utility and EXTAUTH Flag1 Message-ID: <3c3a1f3d.688750821@news.wcc.govt.nz>    Hi All,   $ I've pulled down the GETUAI Utility.3 It was written in the days before the EXTAUTH Flag.D  B I've tried modifying and recompiling things but I cannot get it to work.o I'm not a Programmer......  ? Everything has built okay, but it always returns a symbol of NOt whether the flag is set or not.d< So, I know it's at least recognising the /EXTAUTH qualifier.  4 Has anyone got a modified version around that works?   VMS 7.2 on VAX, 7.2-1 on Alpha.    TIA.   Rob.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 JAN 2002 00:01:02 GMT 4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher), Subject: Re: GETUAI Utility and EXTAUTH Flag5 Message-ID: <8JAN02.00010223@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>l  A In a previous article, rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) wrote:. -> F& ->I've pulled down the GETUAI Utility.5 ->It was written in the days before the EXTAUTH Flag.h -> eD ->I've tried modifying and recompiling things but I cannot get it to ->work.m ->I'm not a Programmer...... -> rA ->Everything has built okay, but it always returns a symbol of NO,! ->whether the flag is set or not.s> ->So, I know it's at least recognising the /EXTAUTH qualifier. -> I6 ->Has anyone got a modified version around that works?  - I've added this. Ftp to: ftp.waisman.wisc.edu $ Look in directory VMS for getuai.zip  ? I also have a /RIGHTS_ID qualifier for GETUAI which will returnBH the user's rights list. That's not in the zip file above but I'll add it shortly.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:03:03 -05002 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>3 Subject: Re: Have folks seen this from the NY Timesy2 Message-ID: <m8n_7.367$5Y4.10333@news.cpqcorp.net>  = It was a cut and past of a message I sent to the Ambassadors.p   sueh  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:8B$42Rd1lTQD@eisner.encompasserve.org...iC > In article <Npk_7.344$5Y4.8793@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Sue Skonetski" $ <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> writes: > > % > > Please note the purple highlightsr >lH > Purple is not quote how Usenet news works, but thanks for the article.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:02:43 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>J3 Subject: Re: Have folks seen this from the NY Times + Message-ID: <3C3A1B00.945C183@videotron.ca>g   Sue Skonetski wrote:& > The New York Times / January 1, 2002: > 2 Computer Giants Hope to Avoid Pitfalls of Past Mergers > By STEVE LOHR3 \0  L Thanks sue for article. Interesting that Capellas now knows that the DIGITALL side of the business is making money with a good return rate, even though it has been severely neglected.  N However, there is one bit of the article I do not agree with. The author hopesN that since Compaq had not succeeded in dtching its "PC manufacturer" image, itK is one reason the Compaq name will be dropped and that the combined company-1 will get that "enterprise" image so badly wanted.0  L This looks great to us, but the author failed to include the Carly and CurlyL statements that they would focus on Widnows and industry standard open stuffT and not focus on proprietary solutions, and this contradict the hopes of the author.  K The killing of MPE and murder of Alpha are certaintly indications that theywK really do intend to focus on "other people's industry standards" instead of F using their might to set the industry standards and lead the industry.  V Imagine if HP had dropped IA64 and decided to jump on the Alpha bandwagon with Compaq.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 06:17:58 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>3 Subject: Re: Have folks seen this from the NY TimesrC Message-ID: <qaw_7.191470$m05.16379003@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in messagep+ news:Npk_7.344$5Y4.8793@news.cpqcorp.net...- >-# > Please note the purple highlights  >2 > -----Original Message----- >=& > The New York Times / January 1, 2002 > : > 2 Computer Giants Hope to Avoid Pitfalls of Past Mergers >D > By STEVE LOHRC   ...c  J > But in purely financial terms, the Hewlett-Packard and Compaq managementL > teams can argue that the Digital Equipment deal was a success. A new studyL > done by Salomon Smith Barney -- at the request of Michael D. Capellas, theL > chief executive of Compaq -- concludes that the internal rate of return onK > the Digital Equipment acquisition, calculated as after-tax cash flow as alI > percentage of the present value of the deal, is 29 percent. Rates of 16eI > percent to 18 percent on corporate investments are generally consideredn very > good.   @ Which is of course why the Digital products are leveraged as the) centerpieces of Compaq's offerings.  Not.e   ...   K > ''There was a lot of turmoil, and we did not do a good job until CapellasRJ > took over,'' said Benjamin M. Rosen, a co-founder and former chairman of	 > Compaq.a  K As evidenced by Capellas' stunning success for the past 3- years.  Pfeiffer?L at least had a corporate vision and was trying to execute it (if Curly has a5 vision, it's severely in need of optical correction).t   ...e  L > Mr. Rosen plans to bet millions that he is right. He left the Compaq boardJ > in 2000, so he no longer reports his holdings. But he said he still heldE > most of the 5.7 million Compaq shares disclosed in an earlier proxy  > statement.  H Now would be a fairly silly time to unload them if he thinks he can helpK push the merger through - since that's the only immediate hope of inflating  their value.   >eJ > Mr. Rosen intends to hold onto the Hewlett-Packard shares he receives inK > exchange, assuming the deal is completed, because he said a well-executed-@ > merger should be so positive for earnings within a year or so.  J Unless, of course, he decides that unloading as soon as the swap occurs isI more prudent.  Talk about future confidence is cheap:  look how confidenta/ Compaq said it was about Alpha until June 25th.e   ...u  L > Today, 25 percent of Compaq's revenue comes from Digital businesses and 92L > percent of its services revenue, or $1.9 billion a quarter, with operating > profits of 13 percent.  K Ah, yes.  Which helps explain where all that VMS-system-related profit came@K from.  And why erosion of the existing Alpha customer base plus reduced new L Alpha sales really should have been given more weight before the decision to( announce the platform's demise was made.  -  With Digital, Compaq also picked up valuable07 > technologies in data storage and systems integration.c >RJ > But while Digital Equipment added new offerings, the merger never reallyH > repositioned Compaq as a full-service computer company with a completeH > portfolio of products and services for corporate customers. Compaq has? > remained greatly dependent on its personal computer business,a  L Compaq hasn't been dependent on that business for years now, since it ceasedD to make any money.  It has just refused to modify its priorities and: behavior as a result, and still shows no sign of doing so.  J > The two leading proponents of the merger -- Mr. Capellas and Carleton S.H > Fiorina, the chief executive of Hewlett-Packard -- say that things areJ > different this time, and so are the two companies involved. The computerL > industry is maturing, they say, so consolidation is needed, as it has beenE > in industry after industry over the years from oil and chemicals tou > automobiles and banking. >oJ > In addition, they add, Hewlett-Packard and Compaq are a very good fit ofI > businesses, overlapping in PC's where rationalization is needed and yets withD > little overlap in the business earmarked for growth -- selling big9 > computers, storage and services to corporate customers.   L I guess now that Alpha has been declared toast there's not that much overlapF any more.  But that's kind of an Orwellian way to 'earmark that market segment for growth'.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 14:06:05 -0600s+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)-7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!i3 Message-ID: <xaZvRBOWtPXF@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  U In article <3C39DE1E.636ABF72@caltech.edu>, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:t > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:n >>  = >> "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in messageh > K >> > That, and your prediction of a $999 IA64 box are only theories of youro" >> > interpretation of the future. >> uM >> Doh, yeah! The future for sure! I wouldn't expect to see the $999 IA64 box1, >> for several years, maybe even five years. > R > How about maybe never?  The IA64 is Intel's replacement for the Xeon - when have > youI! > ever seen a Xeon box under 1K$?j >   ? 	He's talking about Deerfield.. a "low-cost" IA64 desktop part.B   				Robo   >  > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:51:55 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end! . Message-ID: <LTn_7.22916$Sf2.213435@rwcrnsc52>  2 "Russell Wallace" <rw@eircom.net> wrote in message* news:3c3991cf.178445555@news.eircom.net...6 > On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 13:57:05 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"$ > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: >lG > >This will change when $999 IPF boxes become available down the road.e >tD > What makes you think this will happen? IPF is big, complicated andH > expensive; the only way it'll ever be cheap is if it sells in enormousF > volumes, and I'm not clear there's any reason to suppose substantial% > numbers of people will ever buy it.i  E Many things will happen over the next five years, right? For sure IPF'I adoption rates are infinitesimally low right now, but I suspect this willdJ change over time. Hence I wouldn't be surprised to see el cheapo IPF partsK in the second half of the decade. But big, complicated, and expensive is an ) apt description for Itanium and McKinley!u   cheers,0   terry s    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:47:08 -0500n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>O7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!a, Message-ID: <3C3A2566.70EF6029@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:kG > Many things will happen over the next five years, right? For sure IPFlK > adoption rates are infinitesimally low right now, but I suspect this willsL > change over time. Hence I wouldn't be surprised to see el cheapo IPF parts# > in the second half of the decade.d  L If one were to apply to IA64 the same standards as were applied to Alpha, ifK IA64 doesns't generate sufficient volumes,how long will Intel be allowed to-M sink mega money to improve that lead boat so that it can steal sales from itsn 8086 flying ship ?    M If Intel is allowed to take a bloated slow chip, declare it industry standardcM and spend money in the very long term to eventually hope to make that sinking M lead boat actually fly, how come Compaq was allowed without any resistance toeJ murder a perfectly good flying chip that had a bright technological futureM ahead of it and didn't need years of hard work to make it fast enough because1 it was already fast enough ?  L With HP and Compaq going down the drain for a few years while they fire halfJ their staff and have uncertain product lines, I am not sure that IA64 willN really be a success since those are the 2 key adopters of IA64. The others allN have other chips to rely on should IA64 continue to sink. Compaq and HP burbed their bridges.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 17:09:16 -0800d( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!f= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201071709.3903b01a@posting.google.com>7  ] rw@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) wrote in message news:<3c3991cf.178445555@news.eircom.net>...m6 > On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 13:57:05 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"$ > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: > G > >This will change when $999 IPF boxes become available down the road.. > D > What makes you think this will happen? IPF is big, complicated andH > expensive; the only way it'll ever be cheap is if it sells in enormousF > volumes, and I'm not clear there's any reason to suppose substantial% > numbers of people will ever buy it.0  F well they better make it happen or IBM will rule the high end and they	 will not!/   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 03:51:54 GMTi* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!0@ Message-ID: <t1u_7.19936$Oc.1674112@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:xaZvRBOWtPXF@eisner.encompasserve.org...t: > In article <3C39DE1E.636ABF72@caltech.edu>, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:n   ...   K > >> Doh, yeah! The future for sure! I wouldn't expect to see the $999 IA64t boxt. > >> for several years, maybe even five years. > >mJ > > How about maybe never?  The IA64 is Intel's replacement for the Xeon -	 when haveh > > you # > > ever seen a Xeon box under 1K$?o > >r >e@ > He's talking about Deerfield.. a "low-cost" IA64 desktop part.  L Hmmm.  IIRC, Madison and Deerfield are scheduled to appear in 2003, which isI hardly 'several years, maybe even five years' from now.  And Deerfield ishH supposedly a Madison with less on-chip cache (but still a lot, given howF much Itanic's mediocre performance depends on cache hits to avoid longH stalls waiting for memory), so even in a 130 nm process it'll still takeK close to half the chip area of a McKinley - and given that McKinley pricingRJ is IIRC projected to match current Merced pricing, Deerfield pricing belowK $400 or so might well mean selling it at a loss, which would make a sub-$1Ko Deerfield-based box difficult.  3 So I don't think Terry was talking about Deerfield..   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 04:01:07 GMTT* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!mB Message-ID: <7au_7.567170$8q.46284408@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Warren Spencer" <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote in message1 news:918F87BF5warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100... > > rw@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) wrote in <3c3991cf.178445555 > @news.eircom.net>: > 7 > >On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 13:57:05 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon" % > ><terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:  > >bH > >>This will change when $999 IPF boxes become available down the road. > >tE > >What makes you think this will happen? IPF is big, complicated andtI > >expensive; the only way it'll ever be cheap is if it sells in enormouseG > >volumes, and I'm not clear there's any reason to suppose substantiala& > >numbers of people will ever buy it. > >  >dI > Don't forget Microsoft's proven talent at forcing migration through APIc andiL > feature manipulation.  The anti-trust judgement against MS goes into quite* > some detail of how they accomplish this.  J So what?  While Microsoft has never shown too much reluctance to implementD new software versions that require hardware upgrades, this has neverL appeared to constitute a *desire* to require such upgrades but rather simpleJ reluctance to expend effort optimizing new software for existing hardware.I And the upgrades required have almost always been incremental rather thanjK fork-lift (e.g, adding memory to maintain performance - though at least onecD previous generation of machines could usually be used if lack-luster2 performance with the new software was acceptable).  H Microsoft would need to have a compelling reason to field a product thatL absolutely would not run on any existing Windows machines in the field (evenE if they were incrementally upgraded) - especially in light of its new J corporate direction that emphasizes .NET services that the widest possibleI audience should be able to 'enjoy'.  Why would it shoot its own market iniI the foot (by requiring a new hardware platform) just to make Intel happy?"   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 19:09:38 GMT-1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <a1crpj$2l5t$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <NZdzGylu+8Yv@eisner.encompasserve.org>,e0  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:b |> In article <sb5_7.1052$Pe5.187106@news1.iquest.net>, "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net> writes: |> oD |> > There are often exceptions to the rules, but one cannot protect+ |> > users from self-destructive behavior. h |> gL |>    No, but you CAN create a human interface designed to deal with humans. |> aH |>    Now you're all reminding me of the time one of our C++ programmers8 |>    created a file called *.C and wanted to delete it.   Trivial.   server2# ls -l total 1 . -rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff  21 Jan  7 14:02 *.c. -rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff   0 Jan  7 14:02 a.c. -rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff   0 Jan  7 14:02 b.c. -rw-r--r--  1 bill  staff   0 Jan  7 14:02 c.c server2# set noglobo server2# rm *.c  server2# ls  a.c	b.c	c.cA	 server2#     |> sF |>    Fortuneatly he did nothing himself.  I told him coming to see me9 |>    about it was the smartest thing he'd do that month.m |> '  ( Just out of curiosity, what did you do??   bill   -- ,J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   w   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:13:04 GMTD2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C39F2ED.DD935983@bartek.dontspamme.net>    Bob Koehler wrote: > E >    Then maybe you know something I don't.  I've got this little kshHE >    function which emulates some features of DCL copy that the shell3C >    won't do for me on one line.  But I can't "copy a\ a.c b", andeH >    I've tried all kinds of escape and quotes with the file name a\ a.c >   G The following works w/Solaris but should work on any system with bourne.G shell. Note the double quotes and the use of $NF w/awk to pick off the .D LAST field to get the extension - this allows dots in the file name E too (YMMV - unspecified behavior if an extension is not on the source- file).  (    i=`echo "$1" | awk -F. '{print $NF}'`'    j=`echo "$2" | awk -F. '{print $2}'`e'    k=`echo "$2" | awk -F. '{print $1}'`v      if [ "$j" = "" ]t    thene       to=$k.$i    else.
       to="$2"o    fi     cp "$1" "$to"  C This was tested with the command "sh a.sh a\ a.c b.c" and it copiedt a file named "a a.c" to "b.c"s   aakS   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 19:04:56 GMT ( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1crgo$43u$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>i  3 In article <QFaxgika9mio@eisner.encompasserve.org>,r. Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:C >   won't do for me on one line.  But I can't "copy a\ a.c b", and  G >   I've tried all kinds of escape and quotes with the file name a\ a.c"  + I have marked the lines I changed with "!":    >function copy >{( !   i="`echo $1 | awk -F. '{print $2}'`"( !   j="`echo $2 | awk -F. '{print $2}'`"( !   k="`echo $2 | awk -F. '{print $1}'`" >n !   if [ ".$j" = "." ] >   then !      to="$k.$i"  >   else !      to="$2" >   fi >a !   cp "$1" "$to"a >}   -- l@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)s   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 19:07:03 GMTl( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1crkn$45p$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>:  3 In article <dye7SH1FJ3w3@eisner.encompasserve.org>,D. Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:F >   Using my script, all the following fail to pass properly to the cp >   command:  E You're mistaking the finger for the moon. Have a look at the modifiedg script I just posted.a   -- g@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)c   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 19:24:32 GMTr1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)A: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <a1cslg$2l5t$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ; In article <01KCSQUPDEAI8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, <  Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:> |> > Ah!  You reminded me of ANOTHER thing I really like about= |> > Unix ... the ability to reference the base of the entirei |> > disk tree with "/". |> e |> What about rm -rf /*h   What about it??y   What about format C:  ) What about DELETE SYS$SYSTEM[SYSEXE]*.*;*o  F It's not the systems job to protect the stupid.  It is the systems jobD to do what it is told, nothing more, nothing less.  It is the adminsE responsibility to know what he (or she) is doing and act accordingly.eC Isn't that why we tend to get paid more than the kid at McDonalds??d   bill   -- sJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   .   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:31:37 -0000e/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u3jtspks50u666@corp.supernews.com>l  = In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:nE :    Then maybe you know something I don't.  I've got this little ksheE :    function which emulates some features of DCL copy that the shelleD :    won't do for me on one line.  But I can't "copy a\ a.c b", and H :    I've tried all kinds of escape and quotes with the file name a\ a.c  
 cp 'a\ a.c' bb   -- u -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:34:33 -0000e/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>u: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u3ju298rj3ctd4@corp.supernews.com>e  = In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote: = :> The trailing ' for symbol evaluation is not necessary whene! :> whitespace follows the symbol.e :> e3 :> The evaluation of symbols in comments means thate :> $! 'f$verify(1)'  :> will turn verify on.o :> t+ :> Documented or not, this is inconsistent.a  H :    This is a bug that never needed fixing.  Don't give us an inch intoF :    which we open miles of OS bugs, you're favorite OS might not look
 :    so good.e  @ Maybe I wasn't clear; my favorite o/s is VMS.  That doesn't meanD that I can't admit that Unix/ksh do some things better than VMS/DCL.   --   -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:36:16 -0000 / From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u3ju5g5dsroj18@corp.supernews.com>   + In comp.os.vms JD <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:e< : managed correctly.   I just did a test like the following:   : cp foo 'f o.x x' : or : cp foo "f o.x x"  K : For constant values, these quotes are the same.  For shell variables, the  : results would be different.t  ? And the difference is simple: inside 's no substitutions occur.n   -- i -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:41:24 -0500 From: William_Bochnik@acml.com: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC> Message-ID: <OF34CAD323.D14AD15B-ON85256B3A.006B4949@acml.com>  1 I beg to differ - it's the system's job (IMHO) tor 1 - allocate resources fairlyt5 2 - provide a consistent, usable system for the users + 3 - not make the system manager's life hellt  j the third point touches on the other 2 - the system should protect any user from doing anything completelyp boneheaded (within reason) while still let you shoot your self in the foot (if you are adamant about it, for youo might have a reason) - don't make it easy for me to delete all the files in a filesystem/disk/etc but give me ank way to say "yes this looks dangerous but let me anyway).  No protection is NOT better than some protection;sk it's a different approach and seems like a lazy one.  Think of it in terms of an ATM card - how happy would>o people be if you type your pin in wrong 3 times and it refuses to return the card?  How about if it zero's your>i account if you do that?  VMS "wont" let you delete or mess with an installed image, but gives you ways toah install new ones;  MS-DOS warns you when you do a delete *.*;  UNIX's complain if you attempt to unmount^ a partition that is in use, but you have tools to see who that person/process is; etc etc etc.  h Would you advocate NOT having different sizes for unleaded fuel as well as leaded fuel at the pump?  Oh,Y that's your problem - if you are not familiar with this then you should be driving - etc.n  ] Believe me, I am NOT ad advocate of this whole point and click bubble gum video game computer3i experience, but I also think that a system admin needed spend all of his or her time fixing stupid thingseg that are way too easy for the user to get themselves into, and would have been to easy to deisgn better  in the first place.n  A Sorry about the rant - need less coffee in mi diet these days....u    < ------------------------------------------------------------&       bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu  said:  ; In article <01KCSQUPDEAI8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>,r<  Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:> |> > Ah!  You reminded me of ANOTHER thing I really like about= |> > Unix ... the ability to reference the base of the entiren |> > disk tree with "/". |> |> What about rm -rf /*    What about it??e   What about format C:  ) What about DELETE SYS$SYSTEM[SYSEXE]*.*;*i  F It's not the systems job to protect the stupid.  It is the systems jobD to do what it is told, nothing more, nothing less.  It is the adminsE responsibility to know what he (or she) is doing and act accordingly.iC Isn't that why we tend to get paid more than the kid at McDonalds??a   bill   --J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>        F ______________________________________________________________________;  The information contained in this transmission may containd@ privileged and confidential information and is intended only forA the use of the person(s) name above.  If you are not the intendedo= recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for deliveringy3 this message to the intended recipient, any review, @ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication? is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, A please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroye# all copies of the original message.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:51:55 +0100f/ From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <VA.00000510.002a4394@bluewin.delete.ch>  G In article <ur8p2zj4s.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>, Christopher Stacy wrote: D > >>>>> On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 04:59:13 GMT, robert  ("robert") writes:F >  >> Of course, we're all computing professionals and none of us have4 >  >> ever made a mistake typing a command line :-).U >  robert> UNIX was developed from the premise of "the user *knows* what he's doing".cR >  robert> and geerally makes no attempt to second-guess what the user 'intended'. > D > This is what all experienced users want, but above all, the systemG > should be forgiving, most mistakes should not be fatal, and it should2H > not be so poorly designed that it's just a wasteland of land mines and > tar pits.  > H > For just one example: deleting a file should be a decision that can beD > (guaranteed) reviewed and rescinded after the fact, or at least itB > should not be easy to accidently wildcard delete a lot of files.B > It should also be configurable so that different users  can haveJ > different levels of protection from doing things that might be mistakes. >IC Oh, you've just reminded me of a difference between RT-11 and RSTS.-  J RT-11 queried each wildcarded filename by default, RSTS needed a qualifier (/Q ?) to do that. Whoops...  E > Um, isn't this all stuff that everybody learned about in the 1970s?. >4   ___1
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:03:05 GMTt2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C39FD8A.BE8526B5@bartek.dontspamme.net>    Arthur Krewat wrote: >  > Bob Koehler wrote: > > G > >    Then maybe you know something I don't.  I've got this little ksh G > >    function which emulates some features of DCL copy that the shell E > >    won't do for me on one line.  But I can't "copy a\ a.c b", andrJ > >    I've tried all kinds of escape and quotes with the file name a\ a.c > >I > I > The following works w/Solaris but should work on any system with bourneeH > shell. Note the double quotes and the use of $NF w/awk to pick off theE > LAST field to get the extension - this allows dots in the file nameIG > too (YMMV - unspecified behavior if an extension is not on the sourcew > file). > * >    i=`echo "$1" | awk -F. '{print $NF}'` >       ) I should note that this should also read:n  % j=`echo "$2" | awk -F. '{print $NF}'`r   my typom   aakr   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:17:25 -0000l/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u3k0ilq3dou1a6@corp.supernews.com>-  A In comp.os.vms Bill Gunshannon <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote:lJ : |>    Now you're all reminding me of the time one of our C++ programmers: : |>    created a file called *.C and wanted to delete it.  
 : Trivial.   : server2# set noglobe : server2# rm *.cp
 : server2# lsn
 : a.c	b.c	c.c9   Or, rm '*.c'     -- @ -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 12:14:14 -0800n+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>1: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC) Message-ID: <a1cvim01n9f@drn.newsguy.com>e  N In article <gUl_7.762$Kf.13753@ord-read.news.verio.net>, robert@bonomi.invalid says...a >n/ >In article <ur8p2zj4s.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>, 6 >Christopher Stacy  <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US> wrote:D >>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 04:59:13 GMT, robert  ("robert") writes:F >> >> Of course, we're all computing professionals and none of us have4 >> >> ever made a mistake typing a command line :-).H >> robert> UNIX was developed from the premise of "the user *knows* what >>he's doing".Q >>robert> and geerally makes no attempt to second-guess what the user 'intended'.h >>D >>This is what all experienced users want, but above all, the systemG >>should be forgiving, most mistakes should not be fatal, and it shouldqH >>not be so poorly designed that it's just a wasteland of land mines and >>tar pits.r >>H >>For just one example: deleting a file should be a decision that can beD >>(guaranteed) reviewed and rescinded after the fact, or at least itB >>should not be easy to accidently wildcard delete a lot of files.B >>It should also be configurable so that different users  can haveJ >>different levels of protection from doing things that might be mistakes. >>E >>Um, isn't this all stuff that everybody learned about in the 1970s?  >tD >OH! I get it.  he thinks rm(1) should have an 'interactive' option.  D No, in fact the "rm -i" aka "rm --interactive" is probably the worst? thing that ever happened.  Folks alias "rm" to "rm -i" in theiruD .login script, so they get used to saying "I'll just rm * and say noG to the ones I don't want to delete."  They then use a different account-C or for some reason .login isn't executed, they type "rm *", and ....  @ What makes this even worse is that many sysadmins set up a bunchC of default aliases for "new users", among them the "rm -i" blunder.t  This is purely a BOFH move IMHO.  > I've seen this happen to so many users that I not only despiseB aliasing rm, I despise aliasing *any* command.  Sometimes I get so paranoid that I undefine PATH.  E >In human-factors studies, 'predictability' has been found to be the  E >most important single factor in differentiating a good design from aA	 >bad one.h  E I agree with you 100% here.  I just don't like what "tar cvf *" does,r4 though it at least does the same thing (clobber your first file) every time.    Tim.   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Jan 2002 04:14:20 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <87u1txuder.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>   "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:#  D > I created files like that under TOPS10 also :-).  It is no problem > to do so :-).t  # The fun one under tops-10 is '....'    -- i< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.o@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 14:46:17 -0600>+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <VTyKd0RBCuVf@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  j In article <3C39FD8A.BE8526B5@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes: > Arthur Krewat wrote: >> sJ >> The following works w/Solaris but should work on any system with bourneI >> shell. Note the double quotes and the use of $NF w/awk to pick off the F >> LAST field to get the extension - this allows dots in the file nameH >> too (YMMV - unspecified behavior if an extension is not on the source	 >> file).w >> n+ >>    i=`echo "$1" | awk -F. '{print $NF}'`b >>     > + > I should note that this should also read:T > ' > j=`echo "$2" | awk -F. '{print $NF}'`s > 	 > my typom >   A 	That's okay.  I understand.  It is not unlike how a typo totally-C 	wiped out an entire server with 10 years worth of databases on it. G 	The professional that did that is a bright guy 10-15 years experience.iE 	The second time it happened, the person wasn't nearly as experienced A 	but the same result.  Two different Unickses, about 12-18 months G 	apart....  gotta watch those rm -rf commands in shells!  But hey, the -H 	long back and forth about that 2-3 months ago here resolved nothing... E 	but it didn't change the fact it happens, nor the fact even bright, wD 	seasoned professionals screw up occasionally and Unix can *really*  	hang you out to dry.m   				Robn   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:53:21 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <lOn_7.1153$Pe5.196242@news1.iquest.net>  f "Michael Zarlenga" <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> wrote in message news:u3ju298rj3ctd4@corp.supernews.com...? > In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote: ? > :> The trailing ' for symbol evaluation is not necessary when$# > :> whitespace follows the symbol.  > :>  5 > :> The evaluation of symbols in comments means thatC > :> $! 'f$verify(1)'  > :> will turn verify on.s > :> e- > :> Documented or not, this is inconsistent.a > J > :    This is a bug that never needed fixing.  Don't give us an inch intoH > :    which we open miles of OS bugs, you're favorite OS might not look > :    so good.  > B > Maybe I wasn't clear; my favorite o/s is VMS.  That doesn't meanF > that I can't admit that Unix/ksh do some things better than VMS/DCL. > D Even though I am a UNIX person (and have been ever since I was a DECH person), there is ALOT to be admired about the VMS OS kernel.   Frankly,K I even prefer the structure of RSX11M to the typical UNIX kernel structure.t  K In the command level realm, I tend to prefer the simplicity and consistancy : of the 'Bourne-style' shell (which includes ksh and bash.)   John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:21:12 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>: Subject: RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC- Message-ID: <0033000047021771000002L012*@MHS>D   =0A   Hehehehe.f      You want files with that?  	    WWWebbG  F It's not the systems job to protect the stupid.  It is the systems jobD to do what it is told, nothing more, nothing less.  It is the adminsE responsibility to know what he (or she) is doing and act accordingly.eC Isn't that why we tend to get paid more than the kid at McDonalds??h   bill   --H Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wol= vesnD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |? Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>=    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:01:47 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>a: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <gWn_7.1155$Pe5.196271@news1.iquest.net>  W "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote in message news:URl_7.1146$Pe5.195345@news1.iquest.net...n >e< > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:dye7SH1FJ3w3@eisner.encompasserve.org... X > > In article <iDl_7.1144$Pe5.195329@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: > > L > > > Take a look at other posts in this thread.   There is a trick that youH > > > can prefix a name with a character or somesuch.   You also have to6 > > > make sure that the 'quotes' propagate correctly. > >t > > >eE > > > For example, a filename like 'a a.c b' needs to have the quotese@ > > > managed correctly.   I just did a test like the following: > > >  > > > cp foo 'f o.x x' > > > or > > > cp foo "f o.x x" > > I > >    Using my script, all the following fail to pass properly to the cp- > >    command:  > >0O > Okay, I didn't realize that your question wasn't rhetorical!!!   I PROMISE tojB > look at the problem in a few hours (hopefully before 20:00 EST.) >jI It looks like Peter da Silva has already done it.   If you look carefullyoD at what he did:  note that the names are stored into a variable, and8 the careful use of the double quote.   (Thanks Peter!!!)  B One thing that one should remember:   the shell will tend to splitC names into an arg list.   This is true even for variables when they B are expanded.   An easy way to subvert that default behavior is toA add a double quote around a shell variable reference.  The single A quote will likely screw you in this case, because it will inhibit 
 expansion.  A The major mistake in your script was the missing 'double quotes.'oC Without those, the shell will expand the variables and try to split- the variables into arguments.o  G I am NOT a sysadmin or shell expert, but do kernel things.   If someonenC couldn't fix the problem unless they wrote shell scripts every day,sL then there might be a reason for complaint.   Fortunately, or unfortunately,H the shell very consistantly splits arguments, the double quote mechanismF is a VERY USEFUL tool.   Another hint:  don't store double quotes into9 a shell variable unless there is a serious reason for it.   K I suspect that things would be tricky in some cases, if a filename containsb; a quoting character, but that is yet another problem.  :-).-   John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:57:09 -0600+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>h: Subject: RE: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E0B2@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>  F Usually they're a little bland and need lots of cryptographic salt. :)   Chriss  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer' Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  'p  e   > -----Original Message-----3 > From: WILLIAM WEBB [mailto:WWEBB1@email.usps.gov]u   >    Hehehehe.   >    You want files with that?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:06:12 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>": Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <s_n_7.1156$Pe5.196326@news1.iquest.net>  \ "Tim Shoppa" <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message news:a1cvim01n9f@drn.newsguy.com... > @ > I've seen this happen to so many users that I not only despiseD > aliasing rm, I despise aliasing *any* command.  Sometimes I get so  > paranoid that I undefine PATH. > E When creating aliases, it is generally wisest to create a new commandnE name.   There are a *few* cases where an alias of an existant commanduI might be useful, but not very often.   I certainly wouldn't alias 'rm' torE be 'rm -i'.    I might someday be convinced to create a version of rm C that might automatically save the files to be deleted under certainuC circumstances.   Frankly, my 'vi' automatically saves every versioni@ of each file edited, but it doesn't change the normal day-to-dayA semantics of the program OTHER than create a seldom needed backupt file.a   John   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 21:05:05 GMT 0 From: gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <a1d2i1$ebf@gap.cco.caltech.edu>  - Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:-   (snip about rm -i)  F >I agree with you 100% here.  I just don't like what "tar cvf *" does,5 >though it at least does the same thing (clobber yours >first file) every time.  B This should be fixable, too.  tar should find that the file eitherB doesn't exist, or has a tar header on it.  Otherwise it should notC write over the file.    I don't think I ever accidentally did that.W   -- glenm   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 13:06:37 -0700L1 From: nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett)s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <TWMPgmfgWVAo@malvm6.mala.bc.ca>  5 In article <VA.00000510.002a4394@bluewin.delete.ch>, s4    Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> writes:   > L > RT-11 queried each wildcarded filename by default, RSTS needed a qualifier > (/Q ?) to do that. Whoops... > D    RSTS also assumed * meant *.*, which was a real pain if you meant+ to delete *.TMP and instead typed *,TMP :-(c  .   ps. I only did that once, but it was enough.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:27:57 -0500_- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C3A12DC.393CBA0B@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote: > % > > The inconsistant semantics of DCLn > 2 >    Never saw any.  Please feel free to amuse us.    K I recall some inconsistencies with old queue manager commands. some require > /ENTRY=nnnn and other don't require the = to specify an entry.  I When the new queue manager came out (same time frame as Alpha because the N first version of alpha didn't have the new queue manager), I remember noticingJ a new command semantic that made it uncessary to use the old one which was somewhat inconsistent.  N OK, I know this is nitpicking... but it is one I am still careful about when I enter queue commands.9   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:29:25 -0500s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>0: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C3A1334.CD06375B@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:G >    Now you're all reminding me of the time one of our C++ programmersr7 >    created a file called *.C and wanted to delete it.   M wouldn't "$define badfile "*.C"  followed by delete badfile.;  do the trick ?    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 21:29:46 GMTy( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1d40a$8mb$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>   4 In article <gWn_7.1155$Pe5.196271@news1.iquest.net>, JD <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:L >I suspect that things would be tricky in some cases, if a filename contains< >a quoting character, but that is yet another problem.  :-).  B The shell doesn't re-evaluate the results of a variable expansion.  D If you leave the quotes off it will use $IFS to split the results ofD the variable expansion into a list, and apply globbing, but it won't repeat the first pass.   -- w@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)1   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:52:49 -05000- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>k: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C3A18AF.1A8CEE5B@videotron.ca>   Michael Zarlenga wrote:p; > Ah!  You reminded me of ANOTHER thing I really like about : > Unix ... the ability to reference the base of the entire > disk tree with "/".   H This has advantages and disadvantages. In terms of disaster recovery andN configuration of drives it makes more obvious how the system is configured andM where your applications and your data reside when you have separate entities.oI (this starts to matter especially when you have software volume shadowing.2 where you only want to shadow some of the drives).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:14:30 -0500i' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net>i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC* Message-ID: <3C3A47F6.4D37E7D4@Empire.Net>  + jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote (highly excerpted):n   When I typed on an ASR36, ....   John Sauter teased:   ; What's an ASR36?  Maybe you mean an ASR35, the "battleship"29 teletype?  You couldn't have meant the LA36, its keys alls sounded alike.%     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)r   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 04:22:10 GMTs* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC@ Message-ID: <Stu_7.19967$Oc.1701234@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  8 "Tim Shoppa" <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in message# news:a1cvim01n9f@drn.newsguy.com...n: > In article <gUl_7.762$Kf.13753@ord-read.news.verio.net>, robert@bonomi.invalid-	 > says...  > >e1 > >In article <ur8p2zj4s.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>,p8 > >Christopher Stacy  <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US> wrote:   ...w  F > >>This is what all experienced users want, but above all, the systemI > >>should be forgiving, most mistakes should not be fatal, and it should.J > >>not be so poorly designed that it's just a wasteland of land mines and
 > >>tar pits.. > >>J > >>For just one example: deleting a file should be a decision that can beF > >>(guaranteed) reviewed and rescinded after the fact, or at least itD > >>should not be easy to accidently wildcard delete a lot of files.D > >>It should also be configurable so that different users  can haveL > >>different levels of protection from doing things that might be mistakes. > >>G > >>Um, isn't this all stuff that everybody learned about in the 1970s?l > > F > >OH! I get it.  he thinks rm(1) should have an 'interactive' option. >oF > No, in fact the "rm -i" aka "rm --interactive" is probably the worstA > thing that ever happened.  Folks alias "rm" to "rm -i" in theirhF > .login script, so they get used to saying "I'll just rm * and say noI > to the ones I don't want to delete."  They then use a different accounteE > or for some reason .login isn't executed, they type "rm *", and ...t   ...   F > >In human-factors studies, 'predictability' has been found to be theG > >most important single factor in differentiating a good design from an > >bad one.  >  > I agree with you 100% here.   G At the risk of interjecting some concreteness into what appears to be an# primarily philosophical discussion:n  I On the subject of file deletion, I've often thought that deferred garbagesC collection offered a kinder alternative that avoided such issues asoL automatically saying 'I mean it' and then suffering later regrets.  It wouldK allow deleted files to be recovered for (nearly) as long as their space waseL not needed elsewhere by the system (even across user logout, unlike the TOPSL example), which would give a user at least a reasonable chance of recoveringG from a mistake without cluttering up the interface (i.e., delete reallyiK means delete, but you *usually* have the opportunity to reconsider for some. period afterwards).   L But it's intrinsically not predictable (e.g., a system with very little freeJ storage space and high activity levels would be far less likely to be ableI to recover a deleted file than others).  Is that really a problem in thisd case?    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:57:08 -0700-+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>r Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.o' Message-ID: <3C39EF84.1010307@mmaz.com>e   John Macallister wrote:   M >If there are no payments involved what's the point of having any terminationsJ >date and regular renewal of licences? Extra work for no benefit at all .. >o Hi John,  C I believe the purpose of the annual expiration is to have the user  F reconfirm their agreement to the terms and conditions of the Hobbyist E Agreement and any subsequent licensing changes from Compaq.  Is it a  H bother, sure but it is free and with most things free, there is a minor - price of inconvenience that must be accepted.e  
 Best regards,.   Barry-   -- -  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028h   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:43:41 GMTd2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.k2 Message-ID: <NTm_7.365$5Y4.10361@news.cpqcorp.net>   John Macallister wrote:w  M :If there are no payments involved what's the point of having any terminationtJ :date and regular renewal of licences? Extra work for no benefit at all ..  J   The benefits are the continued access to the free licenses (for users), G   some idea around the current level of hobbyist program activity (for "I   Compaq), and a periodic "refreshing" of the periodic program rules and s)   license requirements (also for Compaq).i  I   Having just gone through the renewal, Encompasserve has similar yearly iH   renewal requirements for access to the Encompasserve (DECUServe) notesD   conferencing and the EISNER:: host.  For details, please visit theH   http://www.encompasserve.org/ website (or telnet://eisner.decus.org/).  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:02:17 +0100o9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>e Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses. ' Message-ID: <3C39FEC9.7CF47544@aaa.com>R  9 Is the current number of downloads from Montagar public ?  And if so, what is the number ?s Jan-Erik Sderholm.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:17:08 -0500u- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses. , Message-ID: <3C3A1054.785C3A33@videotron.ca>   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:e > 7 > What is the problem with re-ordering and re-executingm$ > the DCL command file once a year ?  L Because it requires some form of "DECUS" membershsip and "DECUS" has stoppedL existing or is in a state of flux/vacuum in many countries so you never knowN if your old DECUS number used to register your hobbiyst licences will continue+ to work or if you are still a DECUS member.   K So when the time comes to renew your licenses, you might find out that yourtN number is no longer rocgnized and then you're up the wazoo because it may takeM way too long to get it working again (eg: you finding out how to contact whatrL replaced decus, getting some form of membership and getting them to transmitJ to montagar your membership number so you can type in that simple request.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:18:22 -0500i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>- Subject: Re: Hobbyist licenses.,, Message-ID: <3C3A109F.BBC2EB94@videotron.ca>   John Macallister wrote:u > N > If there are no payments involved what's the point of having any terminationK > date and regular renewal of licences? Extra work for no benefit at all ..   J Gives the ability to find out how many such systems are ACTIVE on a yearlyJ basis. If the licences were perpetual, they'd have no way to know that youN ditched the Microvax II or VAX 9000 you got for free from some company getting rid of their Digital gear.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:50:13 -0800# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>h: Subject: how to turn off display locking due to inactivity9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEOLDNAA.tom@kednos.com>t   with CDE on 7.3.  Anybody?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:46:45 GMTo From: dittman@dittman.net0 Subject: HSZxx Firmware Copy: Message-ID: <UOn_7.1382$CO6.361435@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>  ? Does anyone know how I can copy the firmware to an HSZxx PCMCIAyB FLASH memory card?  I have the image, but can't write to the card. -- n Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.netr= Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 13:47:16 -0800t% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> & Subject: HUMOR: [Fwd: early computing]) Message-ID: <3C3A1764.43EE5238@rdrop.com>   / /SUBJECT="I started computing so long ago..." - C /OFFENSIVE=(RELIGION, MAC_FANS) - ! Especiallly zealous Mac fans...l3 /DISCLAIMER="Names removed to protect the guilty" -' /FLAMES=REDIRECT=NLA0:  	 CP wrote:  > MM wrote:o
 > > IM wrote:s< > > > You guys make me sick. You had it easy... you should'a8 > > > tried it back when we were working, before the Big= > > > Bang. Nothing but the mind of god! Ain't no way to make ' > > > that come out the way you expect.a > > N > > Before there was "God" (verion 1.0), there was the Venture Capital MeetingH > > (TM) and the proof-of-concept demo. We didn't even have the "mind ofM > > gawd" (version 0.23alpha) let alone light and dark. We did, however, havee2 > > patent pending and some really nifty art work. > > K > > So enough about binary, we had to use Macintoshes! It was terrible, but N > > illustrated the point that light and dark were necessary if the true goals0 > > of Project Binary were to be fully realized. > > L > > Unfortunately, as often is the case, some of the not-so-fully consideredJ > > ideas from the proof of concept made it into the product: Scientology.N > > Should have seen that one coming, but no, noone thought a thorough product7 > > testing was necessary for one piddling little beta.e > > I > > So, there you have it. God was designed on a Macintosh. Deal with it.i > G > Now THAT figures! A few proprietary interfaces, documented obscurely;lG > allows no one to make any compatible gods.  Knows What's Good For YousH > and The Way To Do It.  Works great if your vision goes along with thatJ > of the original designers, but you're out of luck if you want to deviateJ > from The Way (What You See Is ALL You Get). Lots of people claim to loveI > the ideas, but actually go and DO something else. A dedicated followingsH > of true zealots who won't believe that anything else could be as good, > or should even be considered.    ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 17:20:06 -08000( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)F Subject: Re: Intel working on 32bit/64bit chip in case Itanium falters= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201071720.36614928@posting.google.com>d  Q david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message news:<a1cqks$ms5$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>...hL > There is an interesting article in this weeks IT WEEK in the UK (Page 19 -K > Desktops await 64bit apps). Unfortunately I can't find the article on the  > Itweek website at present. > L > The article is about the future of 64bit desktop systems and contrasts theK > gradualist AMD hammer approach against Intel's Itanium approach. However o, > there is one very interesting paragraph :- > J > "According to reports, Intel itself is also preparing a 32bit/64bit chipK > alongside the Itanium architecture,although it refused to comment on thislJ > speculation. It is said that Intel's 32bit chip team is looking at a newK > generation of processors with 64bit extensions, to serve as a fallback ifI2 > McKinley fails to generate sufficient interest." >  >  > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS  - must be Alpha ... that is why they bought it!n   > Middlesex University   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:19:46 -0500. From: "Etienne Fortin" <ebfortin@sympatico.ca>F Subject: Re: Intel working on 32bit/64bit chip in case Itanium falters: Message-ID: <mLs_7.7895$qC1.1354457@news20.bellglobal.com>  G I don't think it would be a good idea to contaminate the Alpha with x86eI 32-bits instructions. Like AMD did, extensioning the x86 ISA with 64-bitse! operations is a far simpler idea.r   Etienne Fortin  L > > "According to reports, Intel itself is also preparing a 32bit/64bit chipH > > alongside the Itanium architecture,although it refused to comment on thisL > > speculation. It is said that Intel's 32bit chip team is looking at a newJ > > generation of processors with 64bit extensions, to serve as a fallback if4 > > McKinley fails to generate sufficient interest." > >t > >  > > David Webb > > VMS and Unix team leader > > CCSS >b/ > must be Alpha ... that is why they bought it!  >f > > Middlesex University   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 13:14:28 -0800O) From: john@ossc.net (John Gemignani, Jr.).5 Subject: Re: logicals pointing to files opened by DCLg= Message-ID: <35b06b78.0201071314.19a5abf1@posting.google.com>6  C Saw the displaced unit number problem before when working on an NFS:F client.  I believe that RMS first does a $GETDVI on the device name to@ get the characteristics of the device (it also got the qualifiedD device name as well).  This creates the first unit.  It subsequentlyC did the $ASSIGN (after being happy with the charscteristics), usingdE the template's name (since the device is now gone after the $GETDVI),dB and the $ASSIGN creates the second unit.  I believe this is what I tracked down in the end.   -John     Y briggs@encompasserve.org wrote in message news:<Knr1$d8cB1O9@eisner.encompasserve.org>... Y > In article <u3c9mlk6o6td86@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes:aN > > The RMS IFI is kept in the first longword of the logical name value.  ShowH > > logical knows to skip this.  Here's a program that will get the full) > > filespec from the IFI in the logical:u >  [...]  > >     **  Translate SYS$OUTPUT( > >     **  The format of the result is: > >     **     word - length > >     **     word - IFIa( > >     **     char - device name string > E > I'm sure the code is correct.  John Vottero knows his stuff in this # > regard.  But this comment is not.e > E > The first two bytes are not the string length.  They are hard codede > as <ESC><NUL>:  %x1b %x00t > C > The next word and the remaining characters are indeed the RMS IFI  > and the device name string.n > E > Interestingly, the device name string has mixed relevance.  For the0G > purposes of RMS (e.g. accessing a PPF through $OPEN), the device nameiF > is largely ignored.  The IFI tells RMS which device to use.  For theH > purposes of other system calls (e.g. assigning a channel with $ASSIGN)F > the 4 byte PPF prefix is ignored and the device name string is used. > E > For 99.44% of all practical purposes, this tidbit of information is J > unimportant.  But you can sometimes get a discrepancy between the deviceD > pointed to by the IFI and the device pointed to by the device name > string...a >  > $ open q lta0: /read > $ show log q/ >    "Q" = "_ALPHA$LTA5221" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)n > $ show dev lta5221/ > %SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device availablem > $ show dev lta5222 /fu > L > Terminal LTA5222:, device type unknown, is online, record-oriented device, >     carriage control.  > Q >     Error count                    0    Operations completed                  0 Q >     Owner process           "VAXS09"    Owner UIC                      [VAXS09]eQ >     Owner process ID        00032083    Dev Prot              S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,W-Q >     Reference count                1    Default buffer size                  80a > 1 > (That's the device I just successfully opened).p > D > A PPF $OPEN on a template device clones the device once to get theE > device name string.  And then it clones it again to actually open ae > channel to the device. > G > It took me quite a bit of head scratching to deduce what was going onvG > when I first encountered this behavior.  (I first saw it with TWA0 onEI > the original flavor of DEC Windows).  I think I SPR'd it way back when,oF > but it's a low enough profile issue that I'm unsurprised to find the > behavior unchanged today.e > H > With network devices, you may well find that the device name component. > of the PPF logical name is entirely missing. >  > $ open q 0::login.com /readn > $ show log q! >    "Q" = "" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)u >  > 	John Briggs   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:13:48 GMT-2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)5 Subject: Re: MAIL/NOOLD, was: Re: BLISS pros and consi2 Message-ID: <Mrm_7.359$5Y4.10123@news.cpqcorp.net>  p In article <00A0794C.DD70BE3B@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:1 :Remember, you lifted the lid on Pandora's box...s :  :Yes, I have one or two... :, :$ MAILt
 :MAIL> DIR: : {directory listing of mail messages in a normal fashion}
 :MAIL> 100Q :    #100         6-NOV-2001 00:19:26.02                                     MAIL ' :%MAIL-E-INVITMLEN, invalid item lengthl :o :MAIL>  B   Works OK here, on OpenVMS Alpha V7.3.  What OpenVMS version and    what ECOs are in use here?  
 :Enough said?@  D   This particular bug looks to have been fixed.  What are the other    problems you report?    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:46:06 GMTo= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)o5 Subject: Re: MAIL/NOOLD, was: Re: BLISS pros and conse0 Message-ID: <00A07B1A.E1EC034A@SendSpamHere.ORG>  g In article <Mrm_7.359$5Y4.10123@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes: q >In article <00A0794C.DD70BE3B@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes: 2 >:Remember, you lifted the lid on Pandora's box... >: >:Yes, I have one or two...> >: >:$ MAIL >:MAIL> DIRa; >: {directory listing of mail messages in a normal fashion}i >:MAIL> 100 R >:    #100         6-NOV-2001 00:19:26.02                                     MAIL( >:%MAIL-E-INVITMLEN, invalid item length >: >:MAIL>a >nC >  Works OK here, on OpenVMS Alpha V7.3.  What OpenVMS version and g >  what ECOs are in use here?  >n >:Enough said? >oE >  This particular bug looks to have been fixed.  What are the other f >  problems you report?' >x >tO > ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------iO >      For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    gO > --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------eM >   Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.comh >s     V7.1-2.  No ECOs.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMo            eJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbeso   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:56:07 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: Multia help- Message-ID: <0033000047009839000002L092*@MHS>   A =0ASearch the comp.os.vms archives using my name and "Multia" and = you'll get a good bit of info including a list of links, someu> gotchas, and a bit of "configuration angst" thrown in for good measure.  ) If you can't find it email me personally.l   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETo& Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:32 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: Multia help    
 Hi everybody.2  H This last weekend I finally resoldered the power supply connector on my=  Multia,9 which I got quite a while ago from Island. (Thanks Dave!)n  H The machine has no RAM, no floppy (nor cable), and a SCSI riser in the = slot.n1 There is no SCSI plug on the back of the machine.c  H Does anyone have any advice for finding the necessary components to mak= e this a VMS machine?   Regards,   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developert Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  '=   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:36:42 GMTr2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: Newbie questions 2 Message-ID: <eNm_7.364$5Y4.10233@news.cpqcorp.net>  R In article <1020107133515.56656C@Ives.egh.com>, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:A :The DECWindows-Motif license is included in the layered productsMC :licenses.  You will want to get both the Alpha-VMS license and theH9 :LP licenses.  Many newbies don't realize they need both.p   ..     From the FAQ:i    < ------------------------------------------------------------2 VMS9.   How do I obtain or transfer a VMS license?  G If you are a DECUS member and are considering acquiring and using a VAXtF or Alpha system for hobbyist (non-commercial) use, (free) licenses forA OpenVMS VAX and OpenVMS Alpha are available to DECUS members.  In,C addition to the license, VAX and Alpha distribution CD-ROM kits areiG available with OpenVMS, DECwindows Motif, DECnet and TCP/IP networking,r- compilers, and a variety of layered products.e  ! For further information, link to:E  #   http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/r  F On the hobbyist license registration form (as of August 2001), you areG offered the choice of the "OpenVMS VAX" license(s), the "OpenVMS Alpha"-C license(s), and the "Layered Products" licenses.  You will want the E operating system license for your particular OpenVMS platform AND youc* will want the "Layered Products" licenses.   ..      N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:57:02 -0800,% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>o Subject: Re: Newbie questions-) Message-ID: <3C39FD8E.64BAD1C8@rdrop.com>0   John Santos wrote: > > Flash wrote:P > > > Last saturday I installed openVMS on a dump saved VAXstation 4000/60 but IB > > > have still two problems (and no documentation to solve them) > > >-B > The DECWindows-Motif license is included in the layered productsD > licenses.  You will want to get both the Alpha-VMS license and the  
 <pedantic>B You'll want to get the *VAX*-VMS license, not the *ALPHA* version. </pedantic>l   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:40:03 -0500  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> Subject: Re: Newbie questionss6 Message-ID: <1020107163813.56656A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  ' On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Hoff Hoffman wrote:r  T > In article <1020107133515.56656C@Ives.egh.com>, John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:C > :The DECWindows-Motif license is included in the layered productseE > :licenses.  You will want to get both the Alpha-VMS license and thes; > :LP licenses.  Many newbies don't realize they need both.- >  > .. >  >   From the FAQ:0 >  > > > ------------------------------------------------------------4 > VMS9.   How do I obtain or transfer a VMS license? > I > If you are a DECUS member and are considering acquiring and using a VAXsH > or Alpha system for hobbyist (non-commercial) use, (free) licenses forC > OpenVMS VAX and OpenVMS Alpha are available to DECUS members.  In E > addition to the license, VAX and Alpha distribution CD-ROM kits are.I > available with OpenVMS, DECwindows Motif, DECnet and TCP/IP networking,e/ > compilers, and a variety of layered products.o > # > For further information, link to:t > % >   http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/  > H > On the hobbyist license registration form (as of August 2001), you areI > offered the choice of the "OpenVMS VAX" license(s), the "OpenVMS Alpha"EE > license(s), and the "Layered Products" licenses.  You will want the?G > operating system license for your particular OpenVMS platform AND youo, > will want the "Layered Products" licenses. >  > .. >  >  > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------P >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    P >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------N >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com    3 Oh yeah, and read the FAQ.  It is really good.  ;-)o   -- d John Santosm Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:44:51 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> + Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????=, Message-ID: <3C3A16D1.836053E4@videotron.ca>   Fabio Cardoso wrote: > $ SHOW QUE any-queue > / > The command didnt show anything.  It freezed.i5 > After a period (about 5-10 minutes since I noticed)e > , the displays returned ok.     K Was someone running ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR of the disk where the queue manager  has its database ?  L Can you explicitely state that disk accesses to other files on the same disk' drive were succesful during that time ?o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 01:26:56 GMTn* From: joell@mindspring.com (Joel Loveless)+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????r/ Message-ID: <3c3a4a9d.11443710@news.alltel.net>s  A Do you have some sort of disk defrag utility running. We had thislE problem when the DEC defrager was working on the queue manager mastere file.e  6 On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:52:18 -0800 (PST), Fabio Cardoso! <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote:s  0 >I noticed a strange problem with my queues last* >friday. It happened a few weeks ago, too. >  >When I tried to display >  >$ SHOW QUE any-queueh >o1 >The command didnt show anything.  It freezed.=20t3 >I tried a lot of queues but I had allways the samed	 >problem.a >c4 >After a period (about 5-10 minutes since I noticed) >, the displays returned ok. >d >I tried > 
 >$ SHOW ENTRY  >m >and had the same symptoms.=20 >t >Do you know anything ?h >a >o >Regards >s >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DM >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=f >=3D >F=E1bio dos Santos Cardosoy >OpenVMS System Manager  >Rio de Janeiro - Brazil >fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.braM >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=  >=3D >i3 >__________________________________________________  >Do You Yahoo!?d' >Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!a" >http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:38:01 GMT/2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)= Subject: Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)12 Message-ID: <JGn_7.370$5Y4.10613@news.cpqcorp.net>  U In article <3C39F410.C7D21DE6@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:   =   re: OpenVMS on DIGITAL Personal Workstation (PWS) -a seriese  J   As I might have commented once or twice before, OpenVMS is not reliable H   on and is not supported on the DIGITAL Personal Workstation -a series K   boxes.  Please use these for Microsoft Windows NT (as they were intended)n#   or maybe for Linux.  Not OpenVMS.i   D   Some folks might have gotten certain configurations of the DIGITALJ   Personal Workstation -a series to work with OpenVMS, but any particular E   DIGITAL Personal Workstation -a might or might not be sufficiently  I   similar to a (supported) -au series platform to bootstrap.  Even if you K   do get around the platform checks through hackery or potentially through MK   firmware upgrades, the hardware and firmware might or might not work and tH   might or might not work reliably with OpenVMS.  (There are cases known/   where specific configurations will not work.)i  M   Some of the Ask The Wizard topics related to this question include (3044), eJ   (3119), (3132), (3820), (3977), (4490), (4934), (5011), (5118), (5584), -   (5604), and (7162).  Probably a few others.n     :>>> b dqa0a :../..OpenVMS blablabla V7.2 :  :*** BUGCHECK ***s6 :a device in the boot line or in the BOOT_DEV (???)...   :CONFIG DEVICE NOT FOUND/ :ignoring the device and not loading the drivera ..M :2. again, the system was running LINUX. Maybe there is some obscure and not tL :FAQ documented command to tell the SRM to forget about lurking LINUX stuff? :   E   From the FAQ: references to the requirement to run the ECU (if thisoK   box happens to have an EISA), to the (lack of) support of the -a series, eI   and to one of the known problems (with a workaround) found in the -a...    	...  < ------------------------------------------------------------- DECW6.  Why is DECwindows Motif not starting?   F First check to see if there is a graphics device, usually a G* device.E (eg: On a DEC 2000 model 300, use the command SHOW DEVICE GQ)  If you  do not find a graphics device:  D a) OpenVMS has failed to find the appropriate IRQ information for anJ    EISA graphics card (on the DEC 2000 series) such as the Compaq QVision,I    and did not autoconfigure it.  Run the correct ECU (for Tru64 UNIX andiF    OpenVMS) and reboot.  This is necessary only on EISA-based systems.   	...  < ------------------------------------------------------------@ ALPHA22.  OpenVMS on the Personal Workstation -a and -au series?  E Though OpenVMS is not supported on the Personal Workstation -a seriesIE platforms, OpenVMS might or might not bootstrap on the platform.  (IfeG you attempt this, you must ensure that all graphics and I/O controllerse( in the system are supported by OpenVMS.)  < ------------------------------------------------------------9 ALPHA23.  OpenVMS and Personal Workstation IDE bootstrap?o  B OpenVMS will boot and is supported on the Personal Workstation -auB series platforms, though OpenVMS will require a SCSI CD-ROM if theB Intel Saturn I/O (SIO) IDE chip is present in the configuration --D only the Cypress IDE controller chip is supported by OpenVMS for IDE bootstraps.   = If you have an -au series system, you can determine which IDEi, chip you have using the SRM console command:     SHOW CONFIGURATION  A If you see "Cypress PCI Peripheral Controller", you can bootstrapSA OpenVMS from IDE storage.  If you see "Intel SIO 82378", you willeC need to use and bootstrap from SCSI.  (A procedure to load DQDRIVERe@ on the Intel SIO -- once the system has bootstrapped from a SCSIC device -- is expected to be included as part of the contents of them/ DQDRIVER directory on Freeware V5.0 and later.)h          N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 22:15:26 +0100., From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>= Subject: Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)v% Message-ID: <3C3A0FEF.615C9A8@gmx.ch>h   Hoff Hoffman wrote:   ? >   re: OpenVMS on DIGITAL Personal Workstation (PWS) -a series  > K >   As I might have commented once or twice before, OpenVMS is not reliablenI >   on and is not supported on the DIGITAL Personal Workstation -a serieswM >   boxes.  Please use these for Microsoft Windows NT (as they were intended) % >   or maybe for Linux.  Not OpenVMS.e  I Are you saying that I can install an INTEL WNT OS on an Alpha system??? I1N thought there was a 64bits WNt version (that was cancelled as we all know) for
 the Alpha.   D.  E PS: someone around here has a (unsupported) 64bits WNT distrib??? :-)t   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:50:10 GMTe2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)= Subject: Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)f2 Message-ID: <mKo_7.373$5Y4.10788@news.cpqcorp.net>  T In article <3C3A0FEF.615C9A8@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes: :Hoff Hoffman wrote: :r@ :>   re: OpenVMS on DIGITAL Personal Workstation (PWS) -a series :> yL :>   As I might have commented once or twice before, OpenVMS is not reliableJ :>   on and is not supported on the DIGITAL Personal Workstation -a seriesN :>   boxes.  Please use these for Microsoft Windows NT (as they were intended)& :>   or maybe for Linux.  Not OpenVMS. :eI :Are you saying that I can install an INTEL WNT OS on an Alpha system???    H   Um, no.  I'm saying that an -a series box is and was intended for use F   only with Microsoft Windows NT.  Not with OpenVMS.  The PWS-a seriesG   box was sold with and specifically targeted Windows NT.  Bit OpenVMS.n  K   Windows NT 4 was available and supported for use on specific then-currenteI   Alpha platforms, up through NT4 SP6 or so.  The -a series was among thea/   platforms that was supported with Windows NT.   L   As has been discussed in various fora, a beta version of Windows 2000 for M   Alpha platforms was seen (briefly) in the field.  Maybe it was the Release hE   Candidate Two (RC2) for Microsoft Windows 2000?  (W2K RC2, IIRC...)o  H :I thought there was a 64bits WNt version (that was cancelled as we all  :know) for the Alpha.r  K   The version you saw was the thirty-two bit version of Windows NT running -M   on hardware capable of sixty-four bit addressing -- but running with fewer pH   native applications than on other thirty-two bit platforms, of course.<   (This was part of the motivation behind FX!32, of course.)  J   AFAIK, the sixty-four bit variant of the Cairo (Windows XP; Chi-Ro, get L   it?) release is just appearing out in the wild -- I've a CD-ROM containingF   a version of Cairo, um, _Windows XP 64-Bit Edition_ for the Itanium J   platform lurking around my office, and it's reportedly capable of native(   sixty-four bit operation (on Itanium).  #   Cairo is not available for Alpha.   F :PS: someone around here has a (unsupported) 64bits WNT distrib??? :-)  H   I've certainly seen references to the Windows 2000 (NT5) beta/RC2 bitsI   for Alpha, but AFAIK there is no 64-bit version of Windows NT for AlphaIE   hardware and there is no official/final W2K kit for Alpha hardware.L    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:25:45 GMT-2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)1 Subject: Re: Product install and installed images 2 Message-ID: <ZCm_7.362$5Y4.10060@news.cpqcorp.net>  V In article <3C39BDF9.F766EB8C@yahoo.com>, James Gessling <jgessling@yahoo.com> writes:E :I've been puzzling over how "product install" copies image files.  I A :have a product with a bunch of shared libraries all installed...b2 :  The files are version 1.  Like lib_gw6400.exe;1F :When I do something like "product install tux /source=dev:[dir], I'veF :got some new files (depending on the release) also version 1.  I can G :only tell they are new because of the creation date.  So along I come 3J :and do like:  $install/replace lib_gw6400.  Did I just make a lost file?   F   This is unfortunately a "stream of consciousness" posting -- please G   back up and provide some background.  Some details of interest here:    <   Do you support the PCSI installation procedure involved?    6   Current OpenVMS version?  Target OpenVMS version(s)?     PCSI ECO status?    G   What are the particular considerations around the different versions eH   of the libraries, both in terms of which one gets installed and which    one gets used at run-time?  H   Some background: The PRODUCT INSTALL command (PCSI) is quite distinct I   from the OpenVMS INSTALL utility, though the PCSI description file can  J   be set up to contend with installed images.  The former loads files fromK   a product kit onto the target disk, while the latter loads image-related  +   data structures into OpenVMS host memory.i  N   And in general, executable and shareable images are most commonly installed /   by the application startup command procedure.h    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 14:05:36 -0800e* From: James Gessling <jgessling@yahoo.com>1 Subject: Re: Product install and installed imagese) Message-ID: <3C3A1BB0.D362C567@yahoo.com>n   In answer to your questions:  S 1) The PCSI file is from a vendor (BEA systems) for their tuxedo product, that' howmK they deliver initial releases and patches. Tux version 6.5 patch level 319.   H 2) Open VMS 7.2-1 source version from the vendor and target at our site.  & 3) product history shows this for PCSI  P DEC AXPVMS VMS721_PCSI V1.0         Patch       Install     22-JUL-2000 10:33:08  X Consider this scenario.  I have a running system with several shared libraries from thisA vendor, all "installed" /open/header/share. All version number 1.    I come along and do:  ) $ product install tuxedo/source=dev:[dir]r  T And it completes.  I now have some new shared libraries, with same name as previous,W also version 1.  I know they are knew because of the creation date on the .exe file.  Ie do (for example)   $ install list tux_libgw DISK$APP4:<TUX65.LIB>.EXE-4    LIBGW_6400;1     Open Hdr Shared            Lnkbl  V Is this the newly "product installed" shareable?  I have some "long running" processes that areU using the current shareables.  I know that the current shareables will become "deletet pending"Q if an "install replace" is done as you mentioned is an automatic part of "product. install".  Is the W "install replace" really automatic?  I can do it "by hand" hand if necessary, as I willf have ton; on the other cluster members that share these files anyway.   Z Another question, do files for "delete pending" sections get deleted dependably if all the  W processes with references run down?  Does a system crash with "delete pending" sectionsc6 cause files that need to be cleaned up with anal/disk?  V And the big kicker, in sda I can use "show proc/chan" to see which shareable a processM is using, but if the previous and new both show as version 1, how can I tell?f  R Should I just tell the vendor to use the archive option on the file directive when building the PCSI file?  
 Thanks,   Jim    Hoff Hoffman wrote:*  X > In article <3C39BDF9.F766EB8C@yahoo.com>, James Gessling <jgessling@yahoo.com> writes:G > :I've been puzzling over how "product install" copies image files.  I C > :have a product with a bunch of shared libraries all installed...04 > :  The files are version 1.  Like lib_gw6400.exe;1H > :When I do something like "product install tux /source=dev:[dir], I'veG > :got some new files (depending on the release) also version 1.  I canlH > :only tell they are new because of the creation date.  So along I comeK > :and do like:  $install/replace lib_gw6400.  Did I just make a lost file?  > G >   This is unfortunately a "stream of consciousness" posting -- please-H >   back up and provide some background.  Some details of interest here: >s< >   Do you support the PCSI installation procedure involved? > 8 >   Current OpenVMS version?  Target OpenVMS version(s)? >i >   PCSI ECO status? >fH >   What are the particular considerations around the different versionsI >   of the libraries, both in terms of which one gets installed and whichv >   one gets used at run-time? >tI >   Some background: The PRODUCT INSTALL command (PCSI) is quite distinctrJ >   from the OpenVMS INSTALL utility, though the PCSI description file canL >   be set up to contend with installed images.  The former loads files fromL >   a product kit onto the target disk, while the latter loads image-related- >   data structures into OpenVMS host memory.d >oO >   And in general, executable and shareable images are most commonly installedl1 >   by the application startup command procedure.r >PP >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------L >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comP >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------N >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 23:30:44 GMTA2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)1 Subject: Re: Product install and installed images 2 Message-ID: <Ecq_7.375$5Y4.10930@news.cpqcorp.net>  V In article <3C3A1BB0.D362C567@yahoo.com>, James Gessling <jgessling@yahoo.com> writes:  4   re: OpenVMS V7.2-1 and the OpenVMS INSTALL utility   :In answer to your questions:   G   So if I understand this, the question is not particularly related to fG   PCSI -- just to the appearance of a new image file, and particularly  E   to the appearance of a new image file that you now want to install.tF   Correct?  This question also looks to be specific to BEA Tuxedo, andD   particularly to how well the particular package might tolerate theD   parallel installation and the rolling upgrade of product versions.  F :Consider this scenario.  I have a running system with several shared E :libraries from this vendor, all "installed" /open/header/share. All 4 :version number 1.E :...I now have some new shared libraries, with same name as previous,h :also version 1. :n :$ install list tux_libgwn :DISK$APP4:<TUX65.LIB>.EXE5 :   LIBGW_6400;1     Open Hdr Shared            LnkblF :o1 :Is this the newly "product installed" shareable?n     Clearly, yes.o  B : I have some "long running" processes that are using the current E :shareables.  I know that the current shareables will become "delete aA :pending" if an "install replace" is done as you mentioned is an b' :automatic part of "product install".  c  @   Um, no.   You will have two parallel sets of installed images.@   Starting with V6.2, the OpenVMS INSTALL utility permits imagesA   with the same name to be installed (entirely in parallel) from s>   different devices and/or different directories.  Works fine.>   Now as to how your application(s) find the shareable images,>   this may or may not permit you to have parallel applications   running different versions.D  F :Another question, do files for "delete pending" sections get deleted ; :dependably if all the processes with references run down? _     I'd expect so.  A : Does a system crash with "delete pending" sections cause files i+ :that need to be cleaned up with anal/disk?   F   Not unless the old (installed) images got deleted in the process of J   upgrading to the new version -- the sections themselves get cleaned up, J   it's the files that got deleted while still held open, and this can leadF   to folks using ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR to clean up the Marked-For-DeleteJ   entries lurking in the file structure.  These file entries are harmless,!   but they do consume disk space.o  D :And the big kicker, in sda I can use "show proc/chan" to see which E :shareable a process is using, but if the previous and new both show t :as version 1, how can I tell?  K   At least on the OpenVMS version I'm looking at (V7.3), the full filename cJ   is displayed for the ANALYZE/SYSTEM command SHOW PROCESS/CHANNEL.  BasedJ   on the question, it appears this information was added subsequent to the3   OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-1 version in use at your site.p  G   I'd really tend to discourage installing and upgrading products like  C   this, unless the vendor (BEA, in this case) tells you this works uF   correctly.  (And if the vendor indicates this is safe, then I'd alsoC   expect the vendor should have procedures to install images and to D   define logical names to reference the appropriate image versions, A   and such.)  I know of more than a few ways for multiple product)B   versions -- running in parallel -- to corrupt the environment...   E :Should I just tell the vendor to use the archive option on the file n' :directive when building the PCSI file?s  D   Um, no.  I'd work with the vendor to determine how to best provide9   parallel product versions and product rolling upgrades.e  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 06:45:29 GMT.% From: Thomas OToole <tom@realbig.com>-) Subject: Re: reading a VMS disk on Linux? + Message-ID: <3C3A94E8.2D282FE9@realbig.com>s  , Carl Lydick's ODS-2 reader is what you want.   -Tom O'toole   John Malmberg wrote: > " > Yehavi Bourvine (58-4279) wrote: > Q > >   I have a VMS disk (written under VMS-7.2) and want to connect it to a LinuxiR > > system and read it there. Is there any driver available for Linux to read such
 > > disks? > H > If it was from a VAX, then it is likely using an ODS-2 filesystem.  If: > it was from an ALPHA, it could be either ODS-2 or ODS-5. > I > There have been reports of an ODS-2 read only file system available for-H > non-OpenVMS platforms.  I have no idea on how well it works or what itJ > would do if it encountered an ODS-5 file system.  You can use one of the  > search engines to look for it. > C > A specification document for ODS-2 is on the OpenVMS Freeware 5.0h9 > CD-ROM.  It can be downloaded from the freeware link atp  > http://www.openvms.compaq.com. > D > It may be best to mount the disk on a real OpenVMS system and then4 > transfer the files through a more portable method. >  > -Johno  > Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq > Personal Opinion Onlyu >  >V   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 13:40:14 -0800 . From: csabah@zipworld.com.au (CSABA HARANGOZO)) Subject: Re: REPLY command usage change ?e= Message-ID: <df779b76.0201071340.6ba8f308@posting.google.com>   u system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote in message news:<00A07AD4.8BF54963@SendSpamHere.ORG>... p > In article <df779b76.0201061628.7df01401@posting.google.com>, csabah@zipworld.com.au (CSABA HARANGOZO) writes:	 > >G'day,s > > O > >        The $HELP REPLY text says, that the /ENABLE or the /DISABLE switcheseJ > >        cannot be entered from a batch job. I did some testing in batch2 > >        ( Alphaservers, VMS 7.2-1 ), you know : > >eJ > >        $ DEFINE/USER  SYS$COMMAND  OPA0:       ( or another terminal )B > >        $ REPLY/ENABLE                          ( or /DISABLE ) > >e  > >        and it seems to work.L > >        Am I missing something or the help text needs changing/updating ?F > >        It did even work selectively. i.e.  /ENABLE=(PRINTER,NETW).O > >        One combination didn't work, namely /ENABLE/LOG. I didn't test other5 > >        variations. > >n! > >        Any comments ?  Hoff ?: > I > I believe that it means that you cannot enable REPLY within a BATCH job1I > to have OPCOM messages placed into the batch job's .LOG file.  I agree,a0 > the wording is a bit confusing and misleading. >vM    Ah, yes, one could see that way, but the wording is really specific sayinguK    the /ENABLE switch itself cannot be entered from a batch job. No mentioneH    of receiving OPCOM messages in the .LOG . The text is saying the sameJ    about the /DISABLE switch, which would imply that we had been receiving+    OPCOM messages in the log already :-)...   L    IMHO, it should be reworded a bit, although this is not a major glitch...    oN > >        On another, lighter note, if you look at the first 2 examples afterP > >        you enter $HELP SHOW USER EXAMP, you will see some familiar names :-)7 > >        I wonder which machine they got them from...- > >sD > >                                                Cheers,     Csaba > $ > $HELP SHOW DEFAULT EXAMPLE too! :)  3  Yes, now that you mention, there they go again... :.  I think these names come from an Eisner box ?  A                                                  Cheers,    Csabaa   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 16:27:36 -0800n- From: bergsma@abinition.com (Michael Bergsma)sX Subject: Resolving undefined symbols at link time with standard C using the CXX compiler= Message-ID: <60123ad9.0201071627.61b2be67@posting.google.com>y  D After searching the postings and Compaq's online help, I cannot find" the answer to this simple question  D "How do you link a pure 'C' application on openVMS when all you have  to work with is a CXX compiler?"  E The CXX compiler produces no compile errors.  No problem there.  Plus 5 I have tried two variants to compiling; one using thepF /NOPREFIX_LIBRARY_ENTRIES flag and one without.  Also, I've tried both LINK and CXXLINK.   C The C RTL is required, as well as some VMS LIB$ and VMS SYS$ calls.   A The application currently compiles and links on UNIX, NT, and VMSh
 (using DECC).   & Here are some results while using CXX.  F ======================================================================B CASE 1:   /NOPREFIX_LIBRARY_ENTRIES , and using LINK (not CXXLINK)F ======================================================================   Options (hs.opt) file is:o sys$library:librtl.exe/share sys$library:decc$shr.exe/share sys$library:ucx$ipc_shr/shareh  9 $ ! Link the 30 or so objects into the HS.EXE applicationp- $ link hs.obj+aimsg.obj+.....+util.obj+hs/opto   Result' %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 24 undefined symbols:s% %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         ACCESS__XPKCId! %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         CLOSE__XIe7 %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         CXX$LB$STLGCLXP5DSCTP5DS07JKBB9i7 %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         CXX$LB$SYSTRNLGXP5DSCTPP0N9R72Cn .o .h .t1 %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         SYS$GETMSG__XUIPUSPVUIPUC', %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         SYS$SETPRN__XP5DSC_T' %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         SYS$SETPRN__XPVn$ %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         UNLINK__XPKC& %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         WRITE__XIPKVUI  C As you can see the names are mangled, and the linker cannot resolve  them.T  C Of course, with a DECC compiler, there is no link errors, using theW same link command.  D ====================================================================< CASE 2: No special CXX options, and using CXXLINK (not LINK)D ====================================================================   Options (opt) file is: sys$library:librtl.exe/share sys$library:decc$shr.exe/share sys$library:ucx$ipc_shr/sharef  9 $ ! Link the 30 or so objects into the HS.EXE applicationo0 $ cxxlink hs.obj+aimsg.obj+.....+util.obj+hs/opt  ' %LINK-W-NUDFSYMS, 23 undefined symbols:f5 %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         int access(const char *, int)P& %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         int close(int)C %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         int lib$sys_trnLog(dsc_t *, int *, dsc_t *,D	 int, int)@ .o .o . * %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         int dup2(int, int)$ %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         int dup(int)$ %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         int getpid(); %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         int read(int, void *, unsigned int)./ %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         int sys$setprn(dsc_t *)e. %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         int sys$setprn(void *)0 %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         int unlink(const char *)B %LINK-I-UDFSYM,         int write(int, const void *, unsigned int)D %LINK-W-USEUNDEF, undefined symbol void sys$dassgn(short) referenced  E I've tried taking all my '.obj' files out of their library and makingiB them inline to the LINK/CXXLINK, but that does not help.  The LINKB command seems to be a better bet than the CXXLINK command, because there is NO C++ code.e  > I cannot believe that I could not find a previous post on thisA problem.  When the solution presents itself, it will problably bea- embarassingly simple, but so far I'm baffled.f  " Any insights would be appreciated.   -Mikee   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 01:16:27 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)Y Subject: Re: Resolving undefined symbols at link time with standard C using the CXX compie2 Message-ID: <LLr_7.378$5Y4.10919@news.cpqcorp.net>  m In article <60123ad9.0201071627.61b2be67@posting.google.com>, bergsma@abinition.com (Michael Bergsma) writes:a  1   The OpenVMS, C++, and TCP/IP Services versions?g  E :"How do you link a pure 'C' application on openVMS when all you havey! :to work with is a CXX compiler?"o  K   You'll want to use the /PREFIX stuff -- this gets the decc$ prefix, which-M   is picked up from decc$shr based on imagelib; please see the FAQ), and you oN   will also want to specify the header files for starlet.h and lib$routines.h.J   The fun here involves getting the definitions to use the C name linkagesK   and not mangle the names: this is the `extern "C"...' stuff -- this stuff:G   is also referenced in the C++ name mangling stuff in the OpenVMS FAQ.o  N   I haven't tried this particular stunt, but I'd also expect you might (will?)"   continue to need to use CXXLINK.   :Options (hs.opt) file is: :sys$library:librtl.exe/sharep :sys$library:decc$shr.exe/sharei :sys$library:ucx$ipc_shr/share  L   You should NOT need to specify the Compaq C and LIBRTL run-time libraries L   -- and you've an older version of IP -- as these should be picked up from .   IMAGELIB.OLB during the CXXLINK (LINK) pass.  # :Any insights would be appreciated.t  B   Um, well, I'd use the C compiler for C code, but that's just me.  G   The Shareable Image Cookbook has some C++ information, and (IIRC) it  E   has pointers to the C++ name mangling documentation.  This document 8   is available at http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 05:35:55 GMTe- From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>nY Subject: Re: Resolving undefined symbols at link time with standard C using the CXX compit* Message-ID: <3C3A89E9.1060302@qsl.network>   Michael Bergsma wrote:  F > After searching the postings and Compaq's online help, I cannot find$ > the answer to this simple question > F > "How do you link a pure 'C' application on openVMS when all you have" > to work with is a CXX compiler?" > G > The CXX compiler produces no compile errors.  No problem there.  Plusi7 > I have tried two variants to compiling; one using the H > /NOPREFIX_LIBRARY_ENTRIES flag and one without.  Also, I've tried both > LINK and CXXLINK.f    L There is a difference in the handling of the header files between C and C++.  E C++ mangles the external names to allow overlaying the same function iC name with different functions that handle different argument types.a  G If you are using C++ to compile a pure C application, you will have to wE change the application supplied header files to indicate to C++ that i# they are C definitions and not C++.n  G This is also the case for any function prototypes that are imbedded in k the source.e  E I would recommend reading the C++ documentation on defining function   prototypes for non C++ modules.n  ) http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/   I C++ also cares that your function prototypes are correct.  If you have a aB package that puts in incorrect function prototypes for standard C A library functions instead of including the supplied header files,tK then even if your code compiles with out errors, it will not link properly.e   <snip>  G > I've tried taking all my '.obj' files out of their library and making D > them inline to the LINK/CXXLINK, but that does not help.  The LINKD > command seems to be a better bet than the CXXLINK command, because > there is NO C++ code.t    I Are you sure that there is no C++ code?  Did you explicitly tell the CXX s? compiler that the external functions were not in a CXX library?c    d@ > I cannot believe that I could not find a previous post on thisC > problem.  When the solution presents itself, it will problably ben/ > embarassingly simple, but so far I'm baffled.     , I remember a similar post a few months back.     -Johna wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion OnlyS   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 19:37:51 +0000 (UTC)4 From: "Matt Shoultz" <matts@huachuca-emh27.army.mil> Subject: RMS index file H Message-ID: <39f180ba05749fa5bb0e54a4be8ee377.57780@mygate.mailgate.org>  L I would like to be able to read and write to a rms index file, but I have noK idea what the internal index structure is.  Doe anyone have any clues about-C reverse engineering this process given a rms index file without anyd" documentation about its structure.   Thanks,-  
 Matt . . .     --  8 Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:56:10 -0500, From: "J. Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com> Subject: Re: RMS index file@1 Message-ID: <d_m_7.2134$dc.631406@brie.direct.ca>i  ? "Matt Shoultz" <matts@huachuca-emh27.army.mil> wrote in message B news:39f180ba05749fa5bb0e54a4be8ee377.57780@mygate.mailgate.org...K > I would like to be able to read and write to a rms index file, but I have  noG > idea what the internal index structure is.  Doe anyone have any cluesy aboutwE > reverse engineering this process given a rms index file without anyo$ > documentation about its structure. >e	 > Thanks,i >a > Matt . . . >o  ) Look at Analyse/RMS_File/FDL filename.txto  0 This will give you the Index and key structures.   Scott. >  > --: > Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:01:54 GMT.8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond) Subject: Re: RMS index filen2 Message-ID: <S8n_7.368$5Y4.10356@news.cpqcorp.net>  I In article <39f180ba05749fa5bb0e54a4be8ee377.57780@mygate.mailgate.org>, e6 "Matt Shoultz" <matts@huachuca-emh27.army.mil> writes:  M >I would like to be able to read and write to a rms index file, but I have nobL >idea what the internal index structure is.  Doe anyone have any clues aboutD >reverse engineering this process given a rms index file without any# >documentation about its structure.   N Well, for starters, if all you have is one RMS indexed file, you will *NEVER* N be able to reverse engineer any of the many RMS features that are not used in  that particular file.m  C Since the idea of using RMS services is just toooo obvious, I asumeoB there is something else, unstated, going on here.  If you can postC more information, you may get some ideas that are better than goingf1 off on what might proove a very difficult effort.    --  K     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USAcH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 22:20:58 +0000 % From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>e Subject: Re: RMS index file ' Message-ID: <3C3A1F4A.A387DEE4@iee.org>h   Charlie Hammond wrote:E > Since the idea of using RMS services is just toooo obvious, I asumeeD > there is something else, unstated, going on here.  If you can postE > more information, you may get some ideas that are better than goingk3 > off on what might proove a very difficult effort.   ( Maybe he's trying to use an RMS file but on a Unix or Windows box?t  * There is info about the internal structure) of RMS files in the student guide for the3& RMS Internals course that Edu Services
 used to give.S  ) I'd quote the part number but mine seems   to have wandered off somewhere.i   Antoniow   -- d   --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgi   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 16:32:53 -0800u( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: RMS index files= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201071632.4a4dc3c3@posting.google.com>f   "Matt Shoultz" <matts@huachuca-emh27.army.mil> wrote in message news:<39f180ba05749fa5bb0e54a4be8ee377.57780@mygate.mailgate.org>...N > I would like to be able to read and write to a rms index file, but I have noM > idea what the internal index structure is.  Doe anyone have any clues about E > reverse engineering this process given a rms index file without anyn$ > documentation about its structure. > 	 > Thanks,o >  > Matt . . .  & another quick option to analyze rms is   $ DIR/FUL filename.ext;n   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 00:50:34 GMTe From: joell@mindspring.com Subject: Re: RMS index filei. Message-ID: <3c3a3f76.8587703@news.alltel.net>  + On a VMS system, use the following command:r  ) $ anal/rms/fdl=<fdl file name> <filename>-  C This will produce an output file with a listing of the structure ofdD the file, indexes, and data segments. It is very straight forward to read.M    7 On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 19:37:51 +0000 (UTC), "Matt Shoultz"i& <matts@huachuca-emh27.army.mil> wrote:  M >I would like to be able to read and write to a rms index file, but I have no L >idea what the internal index structure is.  Doe anyone have any clues aboutD >reverse engineering this process given a rms index file without any# >documentation about its structure.  >t >Thanks, >e >Matt . . .v >a >  >-- 9 >Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORGh   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 02:11:37 +0000 (UTC), From: mogul@mogul.pa.dec.com (Jeffrey Mogul)E Subject: Some history Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ?n3 Message-ID: <a1dkgp$aedb$1@src-news-too.pa.dec.com>r  B I've been skimming this discussion, but I haven't seen any mention. yet of one of the original historical reasons.  B Back in 1979 (more or less), I had just finished a string of threeD summers working as an intern at DEC's Engineering Systems Group.  (ID believe that I was the first person outside of the VMS group to haveC written a VMS device driver, during the summer of 1978.)  I arrived B at Stanford as a grad student, to discover that there was a ragingE debate among a number of prominent CS faculty at various universitiese? over whether to run VMS or UNIX on their VAXen.  Back then, the C decision to use a VAX instead of some other hardware was apparentlydG a no-brainer -- with apologies to my 36-bit friends -- but the decisionR1 about which OS to run was vigorously contentious.n  > The driving force behind this decision was that DARPA was thenA funding major projects in VLSI and Image Understanding at several(@ universities.  Someone at DARPA (I forgot who) wanted all of the@ VAX users on these projects to use the same OS, so that the work could be shared more easily.  E I found an old email message (6 Feb 1980) in my files that summarized2 the state of things:  E   In August 1979 representatives of the DARPA image understanding andlF   VLSI communities met at ARPA headquarters to choose between UNIX andA   VMS.  At that time, little quantitative evidence was available:eA   Berkeley's paging UNIX was not complete, and no-one in the ARPA F   community had any extensive VMS experience.  Hence, there was no wayB   to evaluate relative performance of these two operating systems.  A   In the absence of performance measures, it was assumed that the <   systems would be roughly comparable.  In this context, theB   recommendation was made that the community should standardize onF   UNIX, primarily on the grounds that the entire UNIX operating system@   and environment would be portable to other architectures.  TheG   arguments were laid out in the Sproull report ("2nd draft of ARPA VAX C   proposal and comments on 1st draft", Sept 5, 1979, arpanet mailedx   from CMU-10A).  @ Since I can't remember if this message was "public" or "private"A and I can't figure out how to reach the author, I'll refrain from,E naming names, or quoting from the rest of the message (the paragraphs C above being more or less opinion-free, I'll treat them as "facts").x  A What followed was a lengthy debate about the relative performanceeC of VMS and UNIX.  My recollection is hazy, and I didn't save enought@ of the email messages to fill in the details (perhaps some otherA pack-rat out there can provide the documents; I believe there was @ a widely circulated memo by Scott Fahlman, but I can't find it).? At any rate, the original measurements showed VMS was faster in B many (but not all) ways than UNIX, but (as I recall) the UNIX campB quickly fixed many performance bugs.  UNIX wasn't "Open Source" at@ that point (AT&T's lawyers were fierce!) but the source code was? available to most or all of the DARPA-funded researchers, so itdD was almost the same as Open Source; this allowed for rapid evolution. in the direction desired by these researchers.  B I believe that DARPA's decision in favor of UNIX was largely basedF on the portability of UNIX, and on DARPA's ability to directly controlF UNIX evolution (by funding Bob Fabry's group at Berkeley, which mainlyD meant Bill Joy at that point).  VMS might have had certain technicalF advantages, but I think history supports DARPA's decision -- certainly with respect to portability.  F I doubt that the many reason was the cost of a VMS license.  I believeE that every VAX came with a VMS license in those days, and UNIX wasn'tsI free in any case (especially if you paid AT&T for a source code license).=> The license costs (if I recall correctly) weren't an issue for the DARPA researchers.  C This might not explain why other VMS-centric university departments=D later drifted towards UNIX.  But it has been over 20 years since theB leading CS departments in the US decided in favor of VMS, and that< was done back when DEC's support for VMS was unquestionable.  > -Jeff (not speaking for Compaq, DEC, Stanford, or anyone else)  J P.S.: I remember arguing forcefully (based on my rather limited experience? with both VMS and UNIX) that VMS was clearly better.  But other5C people had more votes than a first-year grad student (big surprise)R4 and I quickly learned to type "ls" instead of "dir".   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 23:08:25 -0500M- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> @ Subject: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products, Message-ID: <3C3A709D.6E82AC34@videotron.ca>   http://www.apple.com/imac/  J He was on CNN moneyline today talking about the PC industry and what he isK doing to break out of his solid niche market to expand it. He mentioned how=J opening their own retain stores has attarcted some 800,000 visits, a large1 percentage of which were not existing MAC owners.=  I And, of course, as usual, he took time to showcase his new imac. (heck, IeN though it was just a monitor, but at the above URL it becomes apparent that it is in fact the whole unit.   Apple should buy Compaq.  L (Unfortunatly, Compaq's stock seems to be on the rebound, even though Compaq8 management are still busy trying to destroy the company.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:56:01 -0800) From: Ted U <grendel@heorot.stanford.edu> Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:   The dem-J Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.40.0201071753530.22269-100000@heorot.stanford.edu>  ( On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Christian Bau wrote:  J > There is one situation where "contextual menu by waiting" is beneficial:G > Use a web browser. Click on a link. Realise just before releasing ther? > mouse button that you want to open that link in a new window.    Yup.  
 > Wait forI > contextual menu to pop up, select "open in new window". This allows youbD > to change how the mouse click is interpreted while the mouse click
 > happens,  ) Right click.  Select "Open in new window"   4 > something that is impossible using a PC mouse with5 > right/wrong^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hleft/right button.h   Nope.e   --G Ted - grendel@heorot.stanford.edu - http://heorot.stanford.edu/grendel/pF "Welcome to Stanford.  There are no walls.  No guards.  But the campusG  is three weeks in every direction.  There is no escape, except death."    ------------------------------   Date: 07 Jan 02 14:24:35 -0800* From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>X Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The dem/ Message-ID: <1137.772T1780T8645045@sky.bus.com>g  K In article <1010394814snz@dsl.co.uk> bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}), writes:   G >Errm, what's so /difficult/ about holding the button down, rather thanpD >looking for a second button?  Macs have had context sensitive menus# >through this means from the start.h  C Speaking purely from a design viewpoint (since I have almost no Mac B experience), I've found that systems involving timeouts tend to beB more prone to errors than ones with explicit controls - especiallyC when those timeouts are used to overload existing controls.  If theoF user misjudges the time, or just isn't willing to wait for the timeoutE to expire, he's not going to be able to access the alternate control.   F Also, controls that appear after a timeout are sufficiently nonobviousE that it's possible for a user to remain unaware that they even exist.:D This discussion about the Mac's context-sensitive menus seem to be a brutally pragmatic proof.e   --" cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)5 Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply. D I don't read top-posted messages.  If you want me to see your reply,? appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:52:21 GMT , From: liam@nessie.xinqu.net (Liam Greenwood)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demio2 Message-ID: <slrna3k2jh.j93.liam@nessie.xinqu.net>  O On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:13:34 GMT, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote:-G >Errm, what's so /difficult/ about holding the button down, rather than-D >looking for a second button?  Macs have had context sensitive menus# >through this means from the start.-  9 	It is difficult to discover.  If I have multiple buttonsdC then there is a chance they may do something, so I try them.  Therea? is no clue that if I hold a button down for some period of timekB something will happen.  Having said that however, there is nothingA intuitive about any mouse driven interface (as anyone who has hadrA to show someone how to drive a mouse from scratch will know), so C? context sensitive menus are just another overload of the mouse u> button to teach the user. (click, double-click, click-select, ? drag-select, drag-n-drop, menu-select, and context-menus - all   on one simple button)o   Cheers, Liam   ------------------------------   Date: 07 Jan 2002 22:07:11 GMT( From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demie9 Message-ID: <3c3a1c0f$0$36736$3c090ad1@news.plethora.net>.  % In article <1010394814snz@dsl.co.uk>,o- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote:fG >Errm, what's so /difficult/ about holding the button down, rather thangD >looking for a second button?  Macs have had context sensitive menus# >through this means from the start.n   Only occasionally.  K What's annoying about it is that it takes a while longer, especially if youp? want to distinguish between dragging and selecting a menu item.n   -s -- hK    Copyright 2001, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net K    $ chmod a+x /bin/laden      Please do not feed or harbor the terrorists.tJ      C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter.  Boycott Spamazon!N Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 01:18:01 +0000i8 From: Christian Bau <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The dem Tb4 Message-ID: <3C3A48C8.55A959E3@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>   Charlie Gibbs wrote: > M > In article <1010394814snz@dsl.co.uk> bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})n	 > writes:  > I > >Errm, what's so /difficult/ about holding the button down, rather thanoF > >looking for a second button?  Macs have had context sensitive menus% > >through this means from the start.t > E > Speaking purely from a design viewpoint (since I have almost no Mac D > experience), I've found that systems involving timeouts tend to beD > more prone to errors than ones with explicit controls - especiallyE > when those timeouts are used to overload existing controls.  If the H > user misjudges the time, or just isn't willing to wait for the timeoutG > to expire, he's not going to be able to access the alternate control.. > H > Also, controls that appear after a timeout are sufficiently nonobviousG > that it's possible for a user to remain unaware that they even exist.lF > This discussion about the Mac's context-sensitive menus seem to be a > brutally pragmatic proof.   G Contextual menus are usually activated by pressing the Control key. The B secondary method of invoking contextual menus by holding the mouseE pressed is mostly for the benefit of owners of ten year old Macs that@> have a keyboard without a control key, and is supported by fewD applications. And I don't think you will find it in the Macintosh UID Guidelines. I also believe that 99.9 percent of those who don't knowA that the Macintosh has contextual menus are not Macintosh users. r  H There is one situation where "contextual menu by waiting" is beneficial:E Use a web browser. Click on a link. Realise just before releasing thehF mouse button that you want to open that link in a new window. Wait forG contextual menu to pop up, select "open in new window". This allows you_B to change how the mouse click is interpreted while the mouse click; happens, something that is impossible using a PC mouse with-3 right/wrong^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hleft/right button.-   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:29:07 -0500: From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The  demise oe. Message-ID: <31id1a.9hg.ln@escape.shannon.net>  O In article <g_c_7.9830$_02.1138230@news.xtra.co.nz>, AG <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote:d  7 > That's a good one for some laughs, for sure. However,i< > it is built on using some obvious contradictions in terms.4 > The example I quoted is not only a perfectly valid7 > syntax construction but also doesn't violate semantice1 > meaning of the words used. Or so I guess ... :)d  I This stuff reminded me of those phrases used to trip up computer programstH written to understand spoken English.  I think my favorite one was this:  B     They go to the zoo too because they hear bears bare their hair
     there.       --    H UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:27:48 +1300 From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz>m5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" - Message-ID: <zTr_7.3$Qz1.970@news.xtra.co.nz>"  5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message & news:3C369048.4090600@tsoft-inc.com... >-I > Intel sells CPUs.  It markets what it sells.  Does GM boast about who'sm: > tools they use to build cars?  No, they market the cars. >   ; The difference is though that the GM doesn't use some otherr= manufacturer's cars to make their cars. So the analogy breakso9 down full stop. Just imagine some high-ranking GM (or any = other car manufacturer) officials seen in public driving somee competitior's car...   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:18:27 GMTe2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: VERB and SYS.STB 2 Message-ID: <7wm_7.361$5Y4.10179@news.cpqcorp.net>  c In article <3C39ABF7.90E844E2@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:   0 :I'm building the utilily VERB on VMS Alpha 7.3.2 :The build script refererences SYS$SYSTEM:SYS.STB.  @   The tools for building VERB on OpenVMS Alpha are available at:  ;     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware40/verb/b    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:44:10 -0600uC From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com> # Subject: Re: VMS and VAX clusteringt; Message-ID: <3C3A6B0A.90205@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com>n   David J. Dachtera wrote:   > Collin wrote: 6 >>OK, perhaps I misjudged how detailed things are. ;-)) >>Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.m >> > H > Actually, you've inspired me. I'm going to start planning now to writeI > "OpenVMS Clusters for Dummies" and see if I can sell it to the folks atm/ > IDG. (They don't have that one yet, do they?)e    G I like the idea, but the "for Dummies" series probably wouldn't be thattF appealing to your potential audience (which might include me). SomeoneE who wants to know how clusters work because they are one of the greatIH computing inventions of the last few decades or someone who needs to setA up an OpenVMS cluster for the first time to get real work done isyH unlikely to be interested in the dummies series. It might, though, be anB appropriate sell for management types who want to know why OpenVMSH Clusters can keep the business from falling down when the building fallsB down, and as an appropriate complement to the NT integration book.  F I'd rather see something in one of the O'Reilly series whose names are of the form:   "Learning XYZ" "XYZ in a Nutshell"S "XYZ: The Missing Manual"a "XYZ: The Definitive Guide"d  D The last two probably are unnecessary because the clustering manualsF aren't missing and the problem with DEC documentation generally is notF its lack of thoroughness but knowing where the heck to start. O'ReillyH also has much better editing and production quality than IDG (or Digital! Press for that matter). My $0.02.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 03:20:32 GMTr1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>tY Subject: Re: VMS as a career move ( was Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger   suceede' Message-ID: <3C3A6645.233DB446@fsi.net>e   Richard Tomkins wrote: >  > David, > M > The price of Windows loaded on a PC is in fact not buried many layers deep.o  " Well, actually yes it is. Read on.  K > It can't be because of the way MRP systems based on SAP control inventorycE > and costing and markup ricing for large international corporations.i  G You're talking about the OEM. I'm talking about the *RETAIL* price, two E or more "hands" later. By the time each distributor along the way alleF the way to the final retailer takes his/her markup, the actual cost is/ buried - almost insignificant, but it is there.m  U > You see, the actual software kit that comes with the little Windows book and [snip]e  C In fact, *NO ONE* beyond the OEM even *SEES* the cost of either theeC license or the WhineBloze media/doc. as a line item on a bill (BOM,sD invoice, etc.). A PC may be listed as a single item in a shipment ofG many hundreds or even thousands of items, but the carton containing theaA system box plus accessories (power cord, the book+CD you mention, H keyboard, owner's book, etc.) *IS* the smallest unit listed once you get2 out the OEM's door - in many cases, maybe not all.   -- x David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:32:19 -0500  From: gce <ge@gce.com> Subject: Re: VMS future...' Message-ID: <3C3A05D3.EAB9590E@gce.com>t  ' This in reply to Virginia Metze's post.e    A The most useful features of VMS have to do with security and datalE integrity...things which are almost obsessions within its engineeringrF group. These you will not find in Windows anytime soon, since they areF not, even now, obsessions within Microsoft (apart from the dozen or soB security people, who know the value but lack visible influence. IfF their drive to keep publication of holes from happening succeeds, look$ for the security influence to drop.)  J This has been clear for some time, if you care to examine what the various@ published holes mean. The "getadmin" holes that came out implied> improper checking of kernel call arguments and improper memory@ protection, for example. Their internal APIs for file calls are F invitations to disaster, with input strings having nowhere in the APIsI for buffer size information. This is well beyond what can be handled withtF cleanup tweaks of the existing code base, and their code entropy seems to be growing rapidly.  I Windows may continue indefinitely in spite of all this, but you move fromdH VMS to Windows at the risk of your data and your security. This is beingK re-proven daily. Also, Microsoft has been seen to consistently misrepresenttE its products and others where competitive advantage was to be gained.kH Thus their security statements deserve to be taken cum grano salis until they prove out in practice.u  E To some extent old bugs have been fixed, though it is unclear to what F extent this consists of blocking the published exploit (as was seen toA have been done wrt the getadmin holes) rather than the underlyings fault.  Q Now, it may be that my environment (a bank) is more driven by such considerations=H than yours. A security disaster can however change that rather quickly.   F I recommend that where possible systems like VMS be used at some pointG between your data and the major threats to that data, just to give somesJ safety. It doesn't hurt that less is generally remembered about it either,H and if you prefer, an OS like OS/400 could be used for similar purposes.H I do a fair bit of computation on linux boxes lately too. I suspect thatG while the proprietary unix systems probably will die off if they do not F become free, Linux will endure unless we get some disastrous laws thatI block our ability to deploy open source code. There has been a sea changetG in development in that it is now feasible for cooperation to take place,F over wide areas. 20 years ago this was not the case, at least on largeG projects. This makes support issues for linux or other free code prettyeC well go away; the good packages will get support more reliably thanaE commercial ones, increasingly, due to the number of minds that can beh directed at such support. J A monopolist can keep up for a while, but has massive costs that will makeL it hard to continue indefinitely all other things being equal. The last timeI something similar happened may have been c. 1500, when the printing presstF came out and thousands of presses started printing pamphlets and books? all over Europe. The history of that time is worth rereading...u  L What ultimately may kill VMS is Compaq's lack of marketing and the continuedL difficulty of getting the system. (Similar practice killed Amiga in spite ofM technical superiority.)  If VMS' management starts pushing it, even a little,1G it will not die and may grow. Remember all the predictions of the deathSJ of Unix? The ATT codebase may cease to be used completely, but it has beenL rewritten now 2-3 times completely and a descendant looks likely to continue
 indefinitely.h  P Mind, Windows (NT, 2K, XP, and followons) could have a good security model; theyL took it from VMS and there is no particular reason it has to be insecure andO flaky apart from the lack of attention to making it anything else. Applying the.M attention requires a development process, though, and a discipline about whataH is allowed into a product that till this point at least has been opposedG to the Microsoft expressed development philosophy, and to its practice.e   Compare the reactions.S When DEC got beaten up badly about holes in VMS, its response was to redesign majoreP subsystems (a LOT of them) and institute a QA process that spans initial conceptQ through code to ensure such holes were fixed or did not occur in the first place.eS That process is still in use. Its results are that holes are discovered a few times-L a year or less (a bit more if you consider internal discoveries, less if youN consider those found externally outside of beta programs). Last one I heard of2 was disclosed by appearance of a mandatory update.  P When Microsoft got beaten up, it proposed that a new service level be institutedK that does not disclose holes until they are fixed and prohibits publicationoJ of holes, and started referring to vulnerability disclosure as a terrorist1 activity. Holes continue to be found about daily.h  Q Exchange does indeed seem to drop messages less than it used to. Its problems now,R are that it acts as a nutrient broth for covert code, and incidentally is designedI so that no antivirus can be guaranteed to see every message so that viriirO at least can be blocked. Its service model is still being worked with continuedtO debate over the services one must block to block the insecure behavior. One cana@ put controls before and after it, and hope. That seems to be it.  J While there are possibly fewer folks who already know VMS than who alreadyI know unix, it is easy to learn, very well documented, and has an API thatmK is orders of magnitude simpler to learn, use, and extend than Windows' API,)O even counting all the X stuff that gives it graphical interface. (That fact has H security benefits also.) Just figure a couple weeks to get familiar withO the system, tops, though VMS needs very little care and feeding.  My experienceoL is one guy can support a dozen systems so long as it is decently configured.  I Alpha will only continue for a few years more to be developed, but VMS is  gettingoL ported to the Intel IA64 architecture, and in the process will become easilyO portable to other targets. Thus there will be fast iron to run it on as long asf Compaq does not drop the ball. o   Glenn Everhart everhart@gce.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:39:48 GMTr' From: Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net>c1 Subject: Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public + Message-ID: <3C39FA3D.5236893B@pacbell.net>   G I advocated exactly that when I was still at DEC in '92. Others agreed,oG but Ken Olsen(aka KO)  never understood the value of image advertising.v= Many things could have been done back in the day when DEC wassE profitable, but the "leadership" waited until it was too late to save F the company. Palmer, The Terrible, came in and finished up selling offD what he didn't understand - which was everything. VMS could still beE saved, but it would take some group with $$$ and vision and even some F acceptance from the VMS community that the OS needs to evolve and that3 might be more difficult than getting the investors.u Just my humble opinion -   Donc   Jerry Leslie wrote:d > B > There should be some VMS advertising aimed at John and Jane Doe, > such as EDS does:  > 8 >    http://www.eds.com/advertising/advertising_tv.shtml$ >    eds.com: Television Advertising >  >    "Television > F >    The award winning EDS television campaign leverages a basic truthD >    about technology - it's complex. Using metaphors to express theI >    difficulty surrounding the digital economy, EDS tapped into the most J >    basic feelings of decision makers struggling to develop and implementC >    technological solutions. The brilliance of the campaign is its I >    relevancy to multiple targets. Anyone involved in the business world H >    today could relate to the scenarios and understand the EDS promise.G >    Whether its herding cats or helping you run with the squirrels, wei' >    thrive on the challenge of it all.. > K >    "Cat Herders" was launched on Super Bowl XXXIV. The commercial went on E >    to be nominated for an Emmy and recently won a silver EFFIE, theSG >    prestigious advertising award for effectiveness, from the New York K >    American Marketing Association. Then the following year, "Running withtE >    the Squirrels" was launched in January 2001 on Super Bowl XXXV."m > E > Thre are other examples of advertising aired on TV and in the pressgC > that are hawking goods and services not used by a majority of the  > general public.n > C > If nothing else, the Doe family would learn that computing is notlG > 99.44% Microsoft & Intel, and 0.56% Apple, and that there are systemsvH > that can survive loss of one datacenter without loss of data. The DoesB > may have offspring who could become IT decision makers some day. > D > There's no way such advertising will come from VMS' owner du jour,; > since that would require permission of the Wintel Cartel.r > F > BTW, do Gates and Grove still meet quarterly ?  There was an articleF > about their quarterly meetings in some business magazine a few years6 > ago, either "Business Week", "Forbes", or "Fortune". > 6 > --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:50:34 GMTa4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>1 Subject: Re: VMS Marketing For the General Publich: Message-ID: <uSn_7.715$DG5.1368@rwcrnsc53.ops.asp.att.net>  6 "Jerry Leslie" <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote in message! news:a1cbhk$aeh$1@joe.rice.edu... B > There should be some VMS advertising aimed at John and Jane Doe, > such as EDS does:b >e8 >    http://www.eds.com/advertising/advertising_tv.shtml$ >    eds.com: Television Advertising >t >    "Television > F >    The award winning EDS television campaign leverages a basic truthD >    about technology - it's complex. Using metaphors to express theI >    difficulty surrounding the digital economy, EDS tapped into the mostxJ >    basic feelings of decision makers struggling to develop and implementC >    technological solutions. The brilliance of the campaign is itssI >    relevancy to multiple targets. Anyone involved in the business world^H >    today could relate to the scenarios and understand the EDS promise.G >    Whether its herding cats or helping you run with the squirrels, weh' >    thrive on the challenge of it all.g >rK >    "Cat Herders" was launched on Super Bowl XXXIV. The commercial went oniE >    to be nominated for an Emmy and recently won a silver EFFIE, thewG >    prestigious advertising award for effectiveness, from the New YorkeK >    American Marketing Association. Then the following year, "Running withoE >    the Squirrels" was launched in January 2001 on Super Bowl XXXV."y >xE > Thre are other examples of advertising aired on TV and in the presssC > that are hawking goods and services not used by a majority of thee > general public.o >tC > If nothing else, the Doe family would learn that computing is notiG > 99.44% Microsoft & Intel, and 0.56% Apple, and that there are systemsrH > that can survive loss of one datacenter without loss of data. The DoesB > may have offspring who could become IT decision makers some day. >-D > There's no way such advertising will come from VMS' owner du jour,; > since that would require permission of the Wintel Cartel.s >-F > BTW, do Gates and Grove still meet quarterly ?  There was an articleF > about their quarterly meetings in some business magazine a few years6 > ago, either "Business Week", "Forbes", or "Fortune". > 6 > --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)  K A shame that CPQ didn't co-sponsor the "Herding Cats" ad. A true classic. ItD missed "Herding Squirrels" because I was at an Encompass BoD meetingF (Encompass BoD meetings ALWAYS coincide with the Super Bowl, just likeI Compaq always does a product launch the Tuesday after the annual American  gridiron classic).  I I don't expect to see much change from CPQ until 2FQ02, which is when thedG merger mania business will cease to be an Inflection Point of Corporatem
 Obsession.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:29:08 GMTk4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>1 Subject: Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public : Message-ID: <Eqo_7.991$8h1.2047@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>  J Hmmm... maybe CPQ could do an advertisement where internees at Compaq's OSE Political Correctness Reeducation Facility escape through some broken-I Windows and resume their trade as VMS Data Wranglers. I can envision saidn) Wranglers herding Penguins and Daemons...m   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 04:09:27 GMT-1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 1 Subject: Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public ' Message-ID: <3C3A71BD.6C397E6C@fsi.net>o   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:u > L > Hmmm... maybe CPQ could do an advertisement where internees at Compaq's OSG > Political Correctness Reeducation Facility escape through some brokensK > Windows and resume their trade as VMS Data Wranglers. I can envision said + > Wranglers herding Penguins and Daemons...h   Terry! You're Hired!   - DJE Marketing and Advertising 8 (a fictitous entity - no phone calls or flames, please!)   -- O David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsi http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 04:21:25 GMTy# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n1 Subject: Re: VMS Marketing For the General Publicw> Message-ID: <9tu_7.151383$pa1.45870156@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>  L There was a Digital TV commercial that aired in the early 90's...as I recallF it was more for the Digital Services side of the business...but it was highly effective IMHO.  K Went kind of like this....Head honcho standing on elevated platform talkingVH to a large group of what obviously were consultants. There is a spinningL brass ring suspended in mid-air centered over a large square carpet, perhapsK 20' square. The challenge...to take hold of the brass ring without standingr on the carpet.  H Different teams of consultants try different strategies to grab the ringF without standing on the carpet...all fail. Then the Digital consultantK stands at the edge of the carpet, bends down and rolls the carpet up to thenG mid-point of the rug. He then stands up right in front of the ring, noty1 standing on the carpet, and grabs the brass ring.t  G The last decent commercial I saw from Digital...perhaps the only decent-H one....what they need is something similar to the Big Brother commercial$ Apple aired or  the 1984 Super Bowl.  = Too bad Alpha is dead, otherwise they could to a  comparativeVG commercial...Alpha is to Intel as US Air Force PGM is to Taliban camel.r Similar results too.      4 "Don Sykes" <anonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in message% news:3C39FA3D.5236893B@pacbell.net...l >cI > I advocated exactly that when I was still at DEC in '92. Others agreed,bI > but Ken Olsen(aka KO)  never understood the value of image advertising.n? > Many things could have been done back in the day when DEC wasaG > profitable, but the "leadership" waited until it was too late to saveeH > the company. Palmer, The Terrible, came in and finished up selling offF > what he didn't understand - which was everything. VMS could still beG > saved, but it would take some group with $$$ and vision and even somelH > acceptance from the VMS community that the OS needs to evolve and that5 > might be more difficult than getting the investors.i > Just my humble opinion - >  > Don  >o > Jerry Leslie wrote:  > >dD > > There should be some VMS advertising aimed at John and Jane Doe, > > such as EDS does:c > >n: > >    http://www.eds.com/advertising/advertising_tv.shtml& > >    eds.com: Television Advertising > >. > >    "Television > >lH > >    The award winning EDS television campaign leverages a basic truthF > >    about technology - it's complex. Using metaphors to express theK > >    difficulty surrounding the digital economy, EDS tapped into the most-L > >    basic feelings of decision makers struggling to develop and implementE > >    technological solutions. The brilliance of the campaign is its9K > >    relevancy to multiple targets. Anyone involved in the business worlduJ > >    today could relate to the scenarios and understand the EDS promise.I > >    Whether its herding cats or helping you run with the squirrels, we ) > >    thrive on the challenge of it all.e > >,J > >    "Cat Herders" was launched on Super Bowl XXXIV. The commercial went onG > >    to be nominated for an Emmy and recently won a silver EFFIE, theeI > >    prestigious advertising award for effectiveness, from the New YorkuH > >    American Marketing Association. Then the following year, "Running withG > >    the Squirrels" was launched in January 2001 on Super Bowl XXXV."p > > G > > Thre are other examples of advertising aired on TV and in the pressnE > > that are hawking goods and services not used by a majority of thed > > general public.t > > E > > If nothing else, the Doe family would learn that computing is noteI > > 99.44% Microsoft & Intel, and 0.56% Apple, and that there are systemsnJ > > that can survive loss of one datacenter without loss of data. The DoesD > > may have offspring who could become IT decision makers some day. > > F > > There's no way such advertising will come from VMS' owner du jour,= > > since that would require permission of the Wintel Cartel.r > >sH > > BTW, do Gates and Grove still meet quarterly ?  There was an articleH > > about their quarterly meetings in some business magazine a few years8 > > ago, either "Business Week", "Forbes", or "Fortune". > >g8 > > --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 01:24:16 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i1 Subject: Re: VMS Marketing For the General Publicn, Message-ID: <3C3A908E.B6B872F2@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote:eM > Went kind of like this....Head honcho standing on elevated platform talkingVJ > to a large group of what obviously were consultants. There is a spinningN > brass ring suspended in mid-air centered over a large square carpet, perhapsM > 20' square. The challenge...to take hold of the brass ring without standingl > on the carpet.  J Yep, remembered that one. And I also remember attending a computer show inL Montreal in early 1980s where Digital had a big booth with "healthy" femalesJ in *wet* "digital" t-shirst handing out "digital" helium filled balloons. L Outside of exhibition hall, there were many "digital" balloons being held by people, even in the subway.o   ------------------------------    Date: 08 Jan 2002 04:26:44 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>H Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )0 Message-ID: <87lmf9ucu3.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  / koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:o  V > In article <0BtZ7.38069$AS4.4315095@news20.bellglobal.com>, cbbrowne@acm.org writes:  E > > I was under the impression that they tried to make sure that partoC > > of VMS (possibly not OpenVMS) was implemented in just about anyyC > > language that they could find, so as to be able to warrant thatoB > > all the languages could be "certified" as compatible with VMS.  ? >    That oft brought up concept has been denied by appropriate B >    sources.  But there are lots of different languages in use asF >    each part seemed to make use of either the best tool for the job," >    or the programmer's favorite.  ? Bob, it may be denied, but I have an audio tape of either StevewC Beckhard or Kirby Altman saying that if there was a new HLL on VMS,s@ they imediatly wrote on of the standard utilities in it. This a)D stopped marketing ripping out the RTLs and making them an extra cost@ item, nd b) locked the HLL group into getting their RTL versions# synced with VMS's release schedule.r   -- a< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.g@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:34:38 -0500h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>tH Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ), Message-ID: <3C3A146D.9BF412F9@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:E >    Back to reality.  A great bit of VMS has since been rewritten ineD >    BLISS or other HLL.  I know of VAX Macro code fomr VMS 2.x that >    became BLISS by VMS 4.0.e    M When writing kernel code or deep down stuff for the OS, does using a compileruN with lots of optimization for the harware ever cause serious problems ?  (I amL thinking of instruction ordering, and variable "elimination" by keeping them/ in registers, and possible many other factors).    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 22:13:35 +0000s% From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org>yH Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )' Message-ID: <3C3A1D8F.BEB70694@iee.org>    Larry Kilgallen wrote:@ > On VAX drivers written entirely in Bliss are only possible for@ > pseudo-devices because of the lack of a WFIKPCH linkage in the > Bliss compiler.e  * The vast bulk of PSI and WANDD on VAX were- written in BLISS. There were a few componentsk) here and there that were written in MACROs+ but the vast majority was BLISS. PSI had atr( least one source file in C (not counting user-level code, of course!).i  & So while writing an *entire* driver in+ BLISS may be tough, you only *need* a smallu* amount of MACRO if that's the way you want to go.   Antoniot  m -- o   ---------------s- Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.orgA   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:31:22 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>u, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha2 Message-ID: <ULm_7.363$5Y4.10276@news.cpqcorp.net>  # Virginia Metze wrote in message ...a >z >sL >Don't believe the propaganda by scared Unix professionals:  Windows 2000/XPJ >is full-featured, in some cases even better than VMS.  And there are many* >good young Windows 2000/XP professionals. >m    G My gut reaction is to say "Virginia, still believes in Santa Clause"...nL which I just had to say because I thought it was funny (hey, it's a Monday).  K The problem is that even on a bounded set of operations, a Windows solution J often doesn't have the reliabilty needed for continuous operations.  OftenI this may not have to do with the OS or even with Windows - but because ofe7 poor programming on the part of application developers.e  J I know of sites where every night an automated script reboots NT servers -J because it reduces the number of hangs and blue screens that happen during  the day when people are working.   >wK >Phase out VMS.  It is wonderful, but actually all of its best features are  >in Windows nt/2000/XP    H Well, yes/no.  Windows is feature rich, but doesn't have - for example -7 anything close to OpenVMS's disaster tolerant clusters.c  J >and those operating systems additionally are basically graphics interface >whereas VMS ish
 >not, really.i >s  J Agreed.  But neither is UNIX.  The real problem isn't the lack of graphicsI interfaces, but that by-and-large, users don't use them.  Who uses all ofoI the CDE tools like the file manager?  Most people just fire up a DECterm.s  I >Facing retirement in a few years, I have de-emphasized my VMS systems ing	 >favor ofsH >moving the web, file, and mail serving to Windows servers.  It has gone >well.  K I have a love/hate thing going with Windows mail (outlook) and the ExchangetK server.  Especially since it has far more outages than the VMS cluster herevK ever had.  However, I have to use outlook given the amount of non-text maili  I need to be able to read/write.   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 14:20:27 -0600d+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)D, Subject: RE: what is future of VMS and alpha3 Message-ID: <ZjNsmefsy$$k@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  g In article <918F8F5E6warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>, wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) writes: 4 > metze@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu (Virginia Metze) wrote in; > <BOECKNAHIJPJAMDEEHDNCEMPDCAA.metze@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu>: f >  >>D >>My opinion:  VMS has somewhat of a future as long as there are VMSE >>professionals, but there are increasingly few VMS professionals anduG >>hardly any new ones.  If HP shuts down VMS, it is curtains for anyoneiD >>not wanting to make a career change within a few years after that. > L > I'm not sure what you mean by "shuts down", but keep in mind that any new L > owner of the OS will likely honor long term support committments given to 
 > the DOD. > E >>Don't believe the propaganda by scared Unix professionals:  WindowshJ >>2000/XP is full-featured, in some cases even better than VMS.  And there4 >>are many good young Windows 2000/XP professionals. >>I >>My own recommendation is to become such a professional yourself or hiref >>one. e >>H >>Phase out VMS.  It is wonderful, but actually all of its best features >>are in Windows nt/2000/XPe > K > Could you point us VMS'ers to the Microsoft-equivalent chapter on shared-,F > everything clusters and host-based volume shadowing?  These are the . > features I put at the top of my "best" list. >   E 	They aren't there.  The paradigm is different.  Multiple servers andnC 	multiple failover servers and they get the job done with 2-3 timese? 	as many servers BUT the point and click former truck-driver isy? 	a whole lot cheaper than someone working VMS clusters for 5-10$4 	years.... so she does have a very legitimate point!  > 	But what I have figured out (I believe) is that most of theseA 	folks aren't interested in disaster tolerance/recovery(1).  TheyeC 	do a "hand-wave" on the whole DR issue (from what I see and hear).g: 	My question to Ginny, how are you implementing DR and how 	is that testing going?x  D 	To do true DR you would need to replicate the environment.  So manyB 	of us have a handful of servers shadowed, etc... and DR or (best:D 	Disaster Tolerance) is fairly straightforward and/or easy.  Can youF 	say the same Ginny?  Guess:  .edu ... DR?  "We don't need no stinking 	DR, we aren't real-world!"t     				Robo    L (1)  Clues abound.... Wall Street and WTC have VMS/Mainframe/Unix back-ends.O      The poor WTC folks with a room full of NT boxes took a whole lot longer tovL      come back (ancillary evidence from online articles I can't reference atI      the moment... and yes I am normally quick to provide an URL, right?)c   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:42:49 +0100c1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>n, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha5 Message-ID: <3C3A0849.3FE2BF2B@swissonline.delete.ch>0   Rob Young wrote: > % ... (snupped  ... past tense of snip)r > G >         But what I have figured out (I believe) is that most of theseoD >         folks aren't interested in disaster tolerance/recovery(1).    E But Rob, doesn't a person who uses NT have to be disaster tolerant ? I ;-)   8 Blue screens, security holes, buggy software ...etc, etc       John McLeant   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:06:58 -0000m- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)o, Subject: RE: what is future of VMS and alpha7 Message-ID: <918FA5050warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>W  . young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in) <ZjNsmefsy$$k@eisner.encompasserve.org>:    8 >In article <918F8F5E6warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>,1 >wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) writes: o5 >> metze@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu (Virginia Metze) wrote in < >> <BOECKNAHIJPJAMDEEHDNCEMPDCAA.metze@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu>:  >>   >>>   
 -- snip --  D >> Could you point us VMS'ers to the Microsoft-equivalent chapter onF >> shared- everything clusters and host-based volume shadowing?  These7 >> are the features I put at the top of my "best" list.f >> h >n6 >     They aren't there.  The paradigm is different.    
 -- snip --    ) Yup - and that's precisely my point.  <g>g   ws   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)t The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:37:18 -0500n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>w, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha, Message-ID: <3C3A2319.EAE71787@videotron.ca>   John McLean wrote:F > But Rob, doesn't a person who uses NT have to be disaster tolerant ? > ;-)e  # No, they are tolerant of disasters.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:42:01 -0800-% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> , Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha) Message-ID: <3C3A3249.7AA269DE@rdrop.com>M   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > L > I know of sites where every night an automated script reboots NT servers -L > because it reduces the number of hangs and blue screens that happen during" > the day when people are working.  H I had a friend who was put in charge of a rather largish e-commerce siteG that ran on a slew of NT4.0/IIS machines.  The reboot schedule for eachdG machine was something like every 90 *minutes*.  He's since moved on, so F I don't know what the current schedule is, or if they finally took hisH urging and moved the web services to another platform.  (Not VMS, or I'd have heard.)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 00:59:42 GMT-* From: joell@mindspring.com (Joel Loveless), Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha. Message-ID: <3c3a4373.9609065@news.alltel.net>  @ There are things I have done on a VMS system that Windows of anyE version could never do. If you have to do anything real time and makel4 it reliable, VMS is your only choice in my opinion.   E Remember what happened at the Denver airport with the baggage system?e   ------------------------------   Date: 7 Jan 2002 17:02:32 -0800 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski), Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201071702.30ddd590@posting.google.com>l  ~ "Virginia Metze" <metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<BOECKNAHIJPJAMDEEHDNIEMODCAA.metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu>...D > My opinion:  VMS has somewhat of a future as long as there are VMSE > professionals, but there are increasingly few VMS professionals andrG > hardly any new ones.  If HP shuts down VMS, it is curtains for anyone D > not wanting to make a career change within a few years after that. >i  D DOE and government use will not allow it ... they don't want windoze blueE screens and spend 80% of their time patching their 80 million windozer servers for security bugs!  M > Don't believe the propaganda by scared Unix professionals:  Windows 2000/XP K > is full-featured, in some cases even better than VMS.  And there are manyi+ > good young Windows 2000/XP professionals.sN > My own recommendation is to become such a professional yourself or hire one.  6 bad advice, unless you enjoy pulling your hair out ...   L > Phase out VMS.  It is wonderful, but actually all of its best features are > in Windows nt/2000/XPl  C I think they forgot security, scalability, reliability, clustering,l volumeD shadowing, to name a few .. although they do have a feature vms does not,B blue screens ... Bill Gates and Dave Cutler failed to turn windoze into VMSC w/the stolen Dec West Mica code ... windoze is still what is alwaysu will be, a lousy client front end ...  K > and those operating systems additionally are basically graphics interface  > whereas VMS is > not, really.  @ oh, really? ever hear of decwindows?  I am currently waiting for ericom softwaredF to port their web connect product to the vms java virtual machine this year soa; I can combine vt sessions w/html functionality/graphics ...e  J > Facing retirement in a few years, I have de-emphasized my VMS systems inM > favor of moving the web, file, and mail serving to Windows servers.  It hastK > gone well.  Those of us who remember all of the problems that we had with   > these things with UNIX and VMS  B What problems?  We run all our web and mail services along w/proxy servicesC on VMS and it is smooth, and "no" crashes yet, and still none in myo	 16+ yearslE on vms ... if you know what you are doing, it is alot easier and muchn more! secure and reliable than windoze!   N > operating systems realize that it has gone remarkably smoothly with Windows.  ? Remember code red, nimda, and some of the other 80,000 security D patches this year, sounds like you have your hands full now spendingC 80% of your time patching windoze servers and clients ... I'll juste watch them bounce off vms.  M > who don't realize it don't know how much trouble we had back in the days ofi@ > bitnet going on internet mail/services...  Memories are short.   this is 2002, not 1992 ...  $ > Windows has, of course, benefittedF > by all of the shaking out of tcp services that has occurred, and the > implementations are good.o  D yea, just go look up all the cert advisories for last year alone ... Tcpwareo? for VMS puts windoze tcp/ip to shame!  needs a few more versione rewrites ...   M > We waited to do mail until the latest version of Exchange.  There have beend > remarkably fewM > problems, and we are able to do virus checking on the incoming stream, etc.o  E We have been doing that on VMS for years, w/Tcpware mail services and 	 a anotherhE VMS software product that scans for viruses ... where have you been? i There is3 also PMDF, but tcpware is so good, why spend the $!    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 02:48:05 GMT ' From: "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii@mail.com>e, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha( Message-ID: <3C3A5DC3.9155F5FF@mail.com>   Virginia Metze wrote:eL > Phase out VMS.  It is wonderful, but actually all of its best features are > in Windows nt/2000/XP4  J Does this mean they have added file version numbers and logical names with
 search lists?e   -- l C.W.Holeman II cwhii@mail.com http://also.as/cwhii   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 06:35:37 GMTn) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)l, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha' Message-ID: <a1e3vp$3d3$1@joe.rice.edu>d  1 Virginia Metze (metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu) wrote:rF : If HP shuts down VMS, it is curtains for anyone not wanting to make 0 : a career change within a few years after that.  E Career changes have become unavoidable. In case you haven't noticed, aJ the US IT industry, and comporate support functions are being globalized. B The comporate support functions being outsourced offshore include:     o accounts payable   o helpdesk support   o insurance claim processing   o credit-card processing   o CAD/CAM-   o medical transcription8   o e-mail processing0   o telemarketingo  @ Here's a few stories on the globalization of the US IT industry:  E    http://www.computerworld.com/storyba/0,4125,NAV47_STO58739,00.htmloE    Ford opens IT hub in India to save millions | Computerworld News &t    Feature Stories  @    http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svtop/global010601.htmD    Eager workforce, lower costs shift tech help overseas (1/05/2002)  4    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-8324464.html>    India becoming world's back office -  Tech News -  CNET.com      [ snip ]   E   "They are part of an emerging work force for India's latest export:     IT-enabled services.e  H    These include telemarketing, helpdesk support, medical transcription,@    back-office accounting, payroll management, maintaining legalH    databases, insurance claim and credit-card processing, animation, andI    higher-end engineering design--all of which can be delivered by phone,     computer and the Internet.r      [ snip ]   G    Call center services can even extend to emotional help, as Bangalore G    IT-firm Phoenix Global Solutions plans to do. It has hired 50 peoplem8    for a pilot project to counsel troubled Americans..."  B It's nice to know that the 5.5% unemployed American IT workers can find a sympathetic ear:1  8    http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20011213S0024L    InformationWeek > IT Jobless Rate > IT Jobless Rate Hits 5.5% In November    December 13, 2001    M : Don't believe the propaganda by scared Unix professionals:  Windows 2000/XPa9 : is full-featured, in some cases even better than VMS.  o  H When will Windows offer something as good as multi-site VMSClusters ?...  M   http://www.success-stories.digital.com/css/cgi-bin/cssextusr/s=display/i=30s"   Success Stories: Credit Lyonnais   VMS Clusters' Trial By Fire   K Does the following story suggest that Windows is ready for mission-criticaloE applications, such as pipeline control (SCADA) or process control in L a petrochemical plant ?:  =    http://money.cnn.com/2001/11/12/technology/gates_software/c9    Gates admits software crashes too much - Nov. 12, 2001u      Microsoft focuses on basics"    November 12, 2001: 7:44 a.m. ETF    Bill Gates admits software crashes too much and is too hard to use.  > : And there are many good young Windows 2000/XP professionals.  < Here's some questions for those young W2K/WXP professionals:  9   o How does one force a crash dump of a Windows system ?c  K   o What is the Microsoft equivalent of the Compaq Customer Support Center :'     to remotely diagnose a crash dump ?i  D   o How does one perform a bare-metal restore of a Windows boot diskC     using standard Microsoft tools ? Assume that the SCADA softwareNG     keeps its database files open while controlling the water treatmentt
     plant.    4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 06:46:16 GMTo* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alphaB Message-ID: <XAw_7.391783$C8.28561848@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Warren Spencer" <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote in message1 news:918FA5050warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100...-0 > young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote in* > <ZjNsmefsy$$k@eisner.encompasserve.org>: > : > >In article <918F8F5E6warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>,2 > >wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) writes:7 > >> metze@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu (Virginia Metze) wrote ina= > >> <BOECKNAHIJPJAMDEEHDNCEMPDCAA.metze@ginny.mrl.uiuc.edu>:f > >> > >>>o >c > -- snip -- >tF > >> Could you point us VMS'ers to the Microsoft-equivalent chapter onH > >> shared- everything clusters and host-based volume shadowing?  These9 > >> are the features I put at the top of my "best" list.f > >> > >i6 > >     They aren't there.  The paradigm is different. >  > -- snip -- >W >o+ > Yup - and that's precisely my point.  <g>t  G But the question then becomes whether the fact that MS achieves similare/ function by a different mechanism is important.p  I The MS answer to host-based volume shadowing is host-mirrored drives thatvL are taken over by (failed over to - a matter of seconds if a journaling fileH system like NTFS is used) a second host if the first fails.  If you wantL disaster tolerance, you can have it (at least up to 10 km or whatever normalK FC allows these days) by separating the disks from each other.  And there's L no reason you can't run productive work on both servers (e.g., a symmetricalH configuration where each normally manages one set of disks and serves as back-up server for another).  J The up-side of this approach is that you can have either host *and* eitherH disk fail and still operate, unlike the case with VMS.  The down-side isI that all access to the disk pair is funneled through a single host (whichtJ isn't so bad if they're really just disks but becomes a problem if they'reC in fact high-performance arrays).  And establishing efficient 'N+1',I configurations (where N > 1) is more complex than when using truly-shared/G devices (though no more complex than when using VMS's host-based volumeE shadowing).c  I MS applies similar fail-over approaches to other resources (as do severalaL Unixes).  They're not as elegant or powerful as true concurrent sharing, butJ there aren't really that many situations that *require* the extra eleganceI and power.  And creating a robust application (cluster-aware such that itrD can survive node failures) is not trivial, or transparent, in either environment.  @ If you can stomach the base differences between Windows and VMS,G clusterability is no longer the killer differentiator that it once was.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 06:52:57 GMTy* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alphaB Message-ID: <dHw_7.391879$C8.28564727@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C39E327.4CCCE4FF@swissonline.delete.ch...r >a >  > Virginia Metze wrote:o > >nF > > My opinion:  VMS has somewhat of a future as long as there are VMSG > > professionals, but there are increasingly few VMS professionals and>I > > hardly any new ones.  If HP shuts down VMS, it is curtains for anyone0F > > not wanting to make a career change within a few years after that. > >a >g= > You seem to have posted this twice, 3 minutes apart.  Why ?d  J Outhouse Express does not perform transactions with the news server (to beJ fair, it's quite likely that the news protocols don't allow it to).  So ifJ it does not receive an ACK for a sent message before something bad happensI (local crash, loss of connection, etc.) it will send it again even if thed server had in fact received it.s   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:22:17 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r1 Subject: Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha? , Message-ID: <3C3A1189.A524AC79@videotron.ca>   Bob Ceculski wrote:wI > VMS is too heavily used by defense and government to go away ... either < > Compaq will port it to itanium or it will have to sell it   I I disagree. Compaq could stop selling VMS today and stop the port to IA64tS today and still make its commitments to the military by continuing support for VMS.I  F > even if it is not ported to itanium, ev7 ensures it will be a viable, > platform for at least another 10 years ...  M And by that time, Windows will (should) be stabel enough and mature enough tos7 take on those applications that used to be VMS' domain.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 03:53:25 GMT?1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 1 Subject: Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha? ' Message-ID: <3C3A6DFA.5AD5D396@fsi.net>e  ' > "webmaster@cyberunlimited.org" wrote:o > F > Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the Supervisory Control6 > and Data Acquisition Department for a Water Utility.  F Hello, Jeffery. May I bid you welcome to the group. I cannot speak for- teh group, but I offer my personal greetings.-   > I currently haveF > several VAX and Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade myB > VAX Systems to Alpha. However, some people here believe that the > future of VMS is limited  D "Limited" is a relative term. "Limited" to a niche market other thanB that into which your specific industry falls might be one possible interpretation. Others abound.  . > and if we continue with VMS Systems, we willE > not be able to hire VMS Experts to fill our future SCADA positions.?  @ Well, that also is relative. The actual number of unemployed (orD under-employed) VMS "experts" continues to grow as more and more VMS@ systems get de-implemented. The problem is not finding them, butF acquiring them and retaining them as most of us are senior people, andC many of us are "empty nesters" and so are not closed to the idea of A relocating, but would require substantial assistance and probably  incentive as well.  F VMS is not "cheap" - neither are VMS people. Like VMS, we can be had - for a price.  G > They believe that we should shift to an NT environment so that we canMD > find people to support our NT Systems in the future. What are your > thoughts on this?u  F For the sake of your customers, abandon such folly and stick with what3 works (and works and works and works and works...).e  5 > What is Compaq going to do about VMS in the future?   D Precious little. Like us, their VMS people are senior professionals,E also. Those who would follow in their footsteps are equally precious.rB Those among them who see and recognize the value of VMS are dearerB still. Those who not only see and recognize its value but are wiseC enough to preserve and propagate it are the Holy Grail of VMS: much0" sought after, but forever elusive.  C > Also, how long is Compaq going to support the Alpha Architecture?a  F On 25-Jun-2001, Compaq announced the end-of-life of Alpha at some dateE in the future. The date of the announcement is known. The actual date B when IPF will "replace" Alpha as a viable product shipping in bulk, remains a mystery, even to Intel and Compaq.   -- - David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemsm http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/K   ------------------------------   Date: 07 Jan 02 13:42:46 -0800* From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>X Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise    of c/ Message-ID: <1355.772T2324T8225437@sky.bus.com>e  7 In article <3C395777.A4F4FC8C@ev1.net> richmond@ev1.net  (Charles Richmond) writes:  C >they are bringing forth people who are *not* ready to do something  >useful in the world.   A I wouldn't expect to hear any objection from the corporations andhE government agencies who are more than willing to do things for them -r at a price.a  C >People need to read Emerson's "Self-Reliance" a few dozen times...4B >And remember the Hemmingway quote:  "Everything is your own fault >if you are any damn good."   @ I haven't heard that one before, but I _like_ it!  Lately I seem? to have been arriving at that conclusion independently, usuallye; while trying to keep my software up and running in spite ofa0 flaky hardware, incompetent users, Windoze, etc.  C >An additional disk drive would have been a fraction of the cost of D >a laptop...but I am sure that your nephew really wanted the laptop.  6 Which shows that the marketroids are doing their jobs.  E >And if the people with the money do *not* understand the technology,t >then they will get snowed.   : "It is morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money."1 (I think one of Heinlein's characters said that.).   --" cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)5 Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.eD I don't read top-posted messages.  If you want me to see your reply,? appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 22:08:24 +0100, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise of compaq e7 Message-ID: <20020107220824.61ed1933.steveo@eircom.net>a   On Mon, 07 Jan 02 11:32:24 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  D JC> Exactly!!!!!  Another thing that he is getting "taught" is that,@ JC> just because he is smart, he doesn't have to do as much workD JC> as the lesser kids.  For example, in his math classes, the class  C 	Gag, Spit. The benefit of being smart is that you can do more work K with less effort. Doing this is the only valid demonstration of being smartl IMHO.h  E JC> is assigned 20 problem; he only has to do three.  I maintain that > JC> he should be assigned more than 20--ideally all different.   	Yep.,  I JC> >And if the people with the money do *not* understand the technology,S JC> >then they will get snowed.  JC> >dE JC> What do you mean "people with money"?  The funds were borrowed...   JC> which is another irritation.  C 	Other peoples money is even less educational than your own, unlessa8 the original owners inisist on getting it back promptly.   -- iH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------    Date: 07 Jan 2002 18:02:19 -05001 From: "Matthew X. Economou" <xenophon@irtnog.org>XB Subject: Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha0 Message-ID: <w4oy9j97ojo.fsf@eco-fs1.irtnog.org>  > >>>>> "Bob" == Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> writes:  >     Bob>    IIRC, there's an installation manual just for VMS.  @ I've searched all over (Google site searches in .compaq.com) andD haven't found one.  Do you have any sugggestions where I might look?   --  F Matthew X. Economou <xenophon@irtnog.org> - Unsafe at any clock speed!J "Little grey men are coming our way (tastes just like chicken, they say)."	  - Clutche   ------------------------------    Date: 07 Jan 2002 17:59:55 -05001 From: "Matthew X. Economou" <xenophon@irtnog.org>aB Subject: Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha0 Message-ID: <w4o3d1h9384.fsf@eco-fs1.irtnog.org>  E >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:t       Tim> check the docsm  E There in lies the rub.  I have the VXT.  I have the software courtesyf@ of the freeware downloads.  I do not have any documentation, andE Google searches for the same haven't turned up anything.  If you knowaD where I can download the VXT documentation, I would be most grateful if you shared it with me.a  C Like how to get the damn thing to MOP-load the boot images once thee) VXT021 package is installed on the Alpha.a   :)   -- nF Matthew X. Economou <xenophon@irtnog.org> - Unsafe at any clock speed!J "Little grey men are coming our way (tastes just like chicken, they say)."	  - Clutch-   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 23:52:54 GMTC2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)B Subject: Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha2 Message-ID: <qxq_7.376$5Y4.10954@news.cpqcorp.net>  d In article <w4oy9j97ojo.fsf@eco-fs1.irtnog.org>, "Matthew X. Economou" <xenophon@irtnog.org> writes:? :>>>>> "Bob" == Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> writes:s : ? :    Bob>    IIRC, there's an installation manual just for VMS.- :-A :I've searched all over (Google site searches in .compaq.com) andeE :haven't found one.  Do you have any sugggestions where I might look?a  =   Can I assume you've checked the Freeware VXT kit directory:t  D     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware40/vxt/post_docs/  G   and specifically the following two (and probably also various other) s   documents in that area:   "     vxt_sysman_install_overview.ps!     vxt_sysman_install_openvms.psu     And I'd look over in:   D     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/freeware40/vxt/line_docs/     and specifically at:       vxt021.release_notes  C   As (based solely on the filenames) these certainly look to be ther   documentation you seek.     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.013 ************************