0 INFO-VAX	Tue, 08 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 14      Contents: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?? Any examples of setting up an FTP session from within an image? C Re: Any examples of setting up an FTP session from within an image? C Re: Any examples of setting up an FTP session from within an image?  Availman/AMDS Startup Error  Backup solution: Tivoli TSM  Re: Backup solution: Tivoli TSM  Re: Backup solution: Tivoli TSM  Re: Backup solution: Tivoli TSM P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went   wrong   at P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went  wrong  at DEP Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went  wrong  at DEP Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went  wrong  at DEP Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong   at DE> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the' Building large RMS file 250,000 records + Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records + Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records + Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records + Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records + Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records + Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records   C++ Runtime problem with fstream Re: C-Kermit versus ALL-IN-1/ RE: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media? / Celko, APL... (Was: Re: VMS and VAX clustering) ) RE: Clustering nodes at VMS 7.3 and 7.1-2 = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" 9 Re: Converting indexed file to sequential yields unprikw?  DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  decnet /osi AND set host Re: decnet /osi AND set host) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) RE: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?  Re: Emulation... Re: Emulation...F From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimates# Re: GETUAI Utility and EXTAUTH Flag . Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 5 Re: how to turn off display locking due to inactivity = Re: Intel working on 32bit/64bit chip in case Itanium falters + Re: LIB$INITIALIZE image_info record layout   Multithreading within a process.$ Re: Multithreading within a process.$ Re: Multithreading within a process.$ Re: Multithreading within a process.$ Re: Multithreading within a process.< Need example code for FTPeeing from own image - anyone help?@ Re: Need example code for FTPeeing from own image - anyone help?" Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????" Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????" Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????" Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????4 Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)4 Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)4 Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)P Re: Please - let's not start *THIS* again! (was Re: Why VMS is better than  Unix Re: RMS index file Re: RMS index file; Slightly On-Topic (at least as c.o.v. increasingly appears) ? Re: Slightly On-Topic (at least as c.o.v. increasingly appears) ; Slightly On-Topic (at least as c.o.v. increasingly appears) ; Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products ; Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products ; Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products ; Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products ; Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products ; Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products ; RE: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products P Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demiP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The dem TP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demis' TCPIP io status blocks on 64 bit alphas + Re: TCPIP io status blocks on 64 bit alphas , Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future", Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future" RE: VMS and the Big Dig  Re: VMS and VAX clustering RE: VMS and VAX clustering Re: VMS and VAX clustering RE: VMS and VAX clustering RE: VMS and VAX clustering( Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public( RE: VMS Marketing For the General Public? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) ? Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move ) # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha ( Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?( Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?P Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more  common ha wtb: cd-rom caddy P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise    of cP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise    of cP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise    of coP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise    of comP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise    of com9 Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:04:57 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS 2 Message-ID: <jQE_7.399$5Y4.11035@news.cpqcorp.net>  " Martin Vorlaender wrote in message2 <3c3a81f0.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>.../ >JF Mezei (jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca) wrote:  >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote: H >> > If someone were to ask me to provide an alternative to CDE, I would likelyI >> > have to go with Gnome.  It has less to do with functionality or look  and F >> > feel - but with my gut instinct on which environment will be more widelyJ >> > used in Linux/UNIX.  KDE appears to have a small and loyal following, but 6 >> > Gnome is getting backing from companies like SUN. >> >> Question: >>I >> On my VAX VMS 7.2 with Motif, what is the name of the user interface ?  >  >DECwindows/Motif  >     K The graphics are the X Window System (X11) Release 6 (server) and Release 5 	 (client). 0 The widget/gadget API is Motif V1.2-5 (or 1.2-6) The window manager is Motif/CDE  The desktop manager is CDE  F >"Session Manager" (the old desktop) and CDE are just window managers. >Likewise Gnome and KDE are. >   E The lowest level of the graphics stack is the X11 server.  it accepts C drawing and windowing commands.  The commands are sent using client  libraries XLIB etc.   K Layered on top of that is a set of higher-level API's that do more abstract G things like create list boxes, and bottons, etc.  This is done by Motif  (XM).   L Sitting slightly outside of this, but participating - is the window manager.F The window manager does things like putting the borders and banners onG windows, and positioning windows.  It has a bunch of other functions as ' well, such as communications functions.   I On top of all of this is the desktop environment.  This is the thing that J puts up the login box, manages the "tool" box, etc.  This can also be partK of the window manager function.  CDE is the current desktop environment and H window manager (you can get the vanilla Motif window manager by using anK alternate login).  The desktop environment ALSO includes the out-of-the-box 5 tools - like the file manager, and the style manager.   H >> And how different, both from cosmetic point of view and deep down are Gnome,1 >> KDE etc from what I have on my VAX right now ?  > D >Window managers do what the name says: they manage (windows on) the desktop.6 >And they provide one or more ways to launch programs. >     I Gnome and KDE are freeware replacements for CDE.  Gnome is also connected K with GTK+ (the Gnome Toolkit) which is a replacement for the Motif API (and H which is an unencumbered implementation of Motif).  They are designed toF have a more Windows look & feel, and provide additional out-of-the-box applications as well.   L The Linux community is also heavily using XFree86, which is a version of theJ X Window System - based on the standard X11R6 release.  They are extendingG this version to do things that are not in the normal X11 release.  Over H time, this will become important as Gnome/GTK applications begin to takeE advantage of them.  Like a WYSIWYG text extension that is being done.   8 >> Is it correct to state that they also use X-windows ? >  >Yes.  > H >> If I create/term on a machine that had CDE to open a window on my VAX thatL >> doesn't have CDE, what happens ?  Does the same happen with GNOME and KDE ?  > H >Your window manager provides a frame. What the application does in that/ >frame is not influenced by the window manager.  >   I Ultimately, all of the upper layers above the X11 libraries, generate X11 L primitives.  So the window will get created.  But the "wrapper" - the border9 and banner, and the look and feel may be quite different.   F >Even cut-and-paste is implemented in the X Windows protocol, and thus should >work cross-window-manager.  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 12:38:02 -0400 % From: Iain Hardcastle <ih@talk21.com> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS 8 Message-ID: <m28m3uokst9kagjlp9js9v2ajvoj3f8bbv@4ax.com>  C On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:36:17 +0000, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  wrote:  6 >On Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:04:12 -0600, Christopher Smith ><csmith@amdocs.com> wrote:  >  >>>  >>L >>Not in the way you describe, but it would be simple enough to write an X11 >>app to do what you want. > F >Yes, I've always thought it would be easy to create a point and click$ >interface to VMS based on CLD files >     We could have Visual BLISS then.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:31:54 -0500/ From: "Michael A. Foley" <mikiefoley@yahoo.com> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS / Message-ID: <u3mb8g5ufchi6d@corp.supernews.com>   @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:jQE_7.399$5Y4.11035@news.cpqcorp.net... >  RE: Gnome, KDE, etc... on VMS   I     Rather than a point solution of picking a window manager or windowing H     development environment, I'd rather see an environment where you canI     pull over just about any open sourced Linux software and recompile it 8     for VMS with a minimum of "hacking" to make it work.  J     I know that's a tall order. But anything else will never allow  VMS to keep-     up with the pace of open source releases.   K     This is, of course, assuming that VMS on a workstation platform becomes L     something that customers are willing to pay for. What applications would takeK     advantage of VMS on a workstation? (I'm assuming an under $2k IA-64 box  at some "     undefined point in the future)     mike   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:20:01 +0100. From: "Gorazd Kikelj" <gorazd.kikelj@aster.si>! Subject: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? . Message-ID: <JGz_7.609$a6.32304@news.siol.net>   Hi,   A you can use IDE to SCSI converter kit to attach IDE CDROM on SCSI  controller.   J My coworker testing one ot this converters right now. This solution may or& may be not be cheaper than SCSI CDROM.   best, Gorazd Kikelj       9 "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote in message   news:3C3A0F4F.433AE825@gmx.ch... > LBohan wrote:  > >  > > BOOTFLAGS ?  > > 3 > > I recall that u**x alphas usually have this set 6 > > to something strange, not compatible w/ VMS boots. >  > Well, no. H > As Hoff stated VMS is not recommended on a -a series system and anyway	 both have J > an INTEL chip. So I'm stuck until I find a SCSI CD-ROM drive that I will not 
 > find... :-(  > 4 > Looks like Santa Claus is playing with his life... >  > D.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:16:14 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> ! Subject: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3? 2 Message-ID: <T_E_7.400$5Y4.10905@news.cpqcorp.net>   LBohan wrote in message ... : >On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:26:48 -0800, Didier Morandi wrote: >  >> Phillip Helbig wrote: >>> 5 >>> As usual, make sure you have the latest firmware.  >>F >> I tried but the menu said ERROR when I asked for the ROM control. I? >> cycled the power then retried. It succeeded the second time.  >>, >> Now, when I boot I have a better message: >>( >> "failed to send read to DQA0.0.0.4.0" >>" >> and the exact error message is: >>J >> CFG_DEV_NOT_FOUND-F-Config device not found (then) Console pathname IDE' >> 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 ID = 00000000.06461095  >>    J Well, the error message is from VMS is pretty specific - the controller IDG (6461095) was not found in the configuration database (this database is 8 constructed from SYS$CONFIG.DAT and SYS$USER_CONFIG.DAT.  E The console pathname is the IDE 0.4.0.0.0.0.0 (this is the geographic L reference we would use to find the device - it tells us the hose and bus and slot, etc).   K What this means is, that despite the fact that the system platform has boot H support for this particular controller, the VMS release does not.  If itJ did, there would be a record in the SYS$CONFIG.DAT file that contained the ID 0x6461095  ' So, it's an unsupported IDE controller.   I I have no idea *at all* if the DQ driver on the system *will* support it. < You can always create a SYS$USER_CONFIG.DAT file and try it.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:55:59 GMT 
 From: NickH Subject: Any examples of setting up an FTP session from within an image?6 Message-ID: <3c3b22f0.228014187@news.cyberphile.co.uk>  A Anyone got an example of setting up an FTP session from within an + image, any compilers source would be great.   ; I don't want to spawn or creprc as its a waste of resource.    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 12:28:33 -0600  From: briggs@encompasserve.orgL Subject: Re: Any examples of setting up an FTP session from within an image?3 Message-ID: <kIjmoCqopgow@eisner.encompasserve.org>O  C In article <3c3b22f0.228014187@news.cyberphile.co.uk>, Nick writes:hC > Anyone got an example of setting up an FTP session from within ani- > image, any compilers source would be great.  > = > I don't want to spawn or creprc as its a waste of resource.a  B Don't be so quick to discount spawn or creprc.  If you tell it notG to propagate symbols and logicals, spawn is pretty decent.  CompetitivesG with the overhead of getting an FTP server process running at any rate.d  C You might look at the FTP module for Perl.  In fact, you might wantS0 to install Perl and actually use its FTP module.   	John Brigs    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 18:46:00 GMTt2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)L Subject: Re: Any examples of setting up an FTP session from within an image?2 Message-ID: <I7H_7.411$5Y4.11210@news.cpqcorp.net>  C In article <3c3b22f0.228014187@news.cyberphile.co.uk>, Nick writes:lB :Anyone got an example of setting up an FTP session from within an, :image, any compilers source would be great. :o< :I don't want to spawn or creprc as its a waste of resource.  I   Compaq TCP/IP Services does not presently offer an API for FTP.  There dG   likely are Freeware packages around that implement an API for an FTP hA   client, but I do not immediately know of nor have I used any...5  L   I'd encourage use of a lib$spawn with a mailbox input, and I'd explicitly J   ask lib$spawn to not copy any symbols and logical names into the createdM   subprocess.  I'd also use COPY/FTP, assuming this is OpenVMS V6.2 or later o'   and a matching IP stack is installed.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 10:04:59 -0800p* From: dclyon@csupomona.edu (David C. Lyon)$ Subject: Availman/AMDS Startup Error= Message-ID: <c78c798c.0201081004.381797a5@posting.google.com>    OpenVMS/Alpha 7.2 
 Availman 2.01   ; I'm getting startup errors when starting the data collector * (@sys$startup:amds$startup start) as in...  @ %AMDS-I-RMSTART, starting Data Provider processing for this nodeE %AMDS-F-OLDRM, an incompatible version of Data Provider is loaded ands runningt  ? The install appeared to go fine. Here is what I have installed.   9 DEC AXPVMS DECNET_OSI V7.2          Full LP     Installedm9 DEC AXPVMS DWMOTIF V1.2-5           Full LP     Installed 9 DEC AXPVMS JAVA V1.1-81             Full LP     Installedo9 DEC AXPVMS NASAXP V5.2              Full LP     InstalledS9 DEC AXPVMS OPENVMS V7.2             Platform    Installed 9 DEC AXPVMS TCPIP V5.0-11            Full LP     Installedh9 DEC AXPVMS TNT V2.1                 Full LP     Installedp9 DEC AXPVMS VMS V7.2                 Oper System Installedl9 DEC VMS AMDS V7.2-1                 Full LP     Installedo9 DEC VMS AVAIL_MAN V2.0-1            Full LP     Installeda  1 Any idea how to correct the problem? Thanks much.o  ( -- Dave Lyon, Cal Poly Pomona University -- dclyon@csupomona.edui   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:56:11 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>$ Subject: Backup solution: Tivoli TSM@ Message-ID: <20020108115611.77482.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>  0 Anyone is using this corporate backup solution ?2 We are using EMC/EDM and having a lot of troubles.1 My manager is interested to know if this solutiona3 (Tivoli TSM) works fine for OpenVMS, AIX, IRIX, Win 
 2000 backups.E  . Or if do you have another suggestions ? Except Veritas.  2 The backup server must be Unix (Solaris, AIX or=20 Tru64)   Regardsf   FC=20t   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dt F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilr fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3De  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 13:10:38 +0100t. From: Frank Heckel <Frank.Heckel@de.bosch.com>( Subject: Re: Backup solution: Tivoli TSM, Message-ID: <3C3AE1BE.B7DB344C@de.bosch.com>   Fabio Cardoso wrote: > 0 > Or if do you have another suggestions ? Except
 > Veritas. > 1 > The backup server must be Unix (Solaris, AIX ore > Tru64) > : Take a look at Legato Networker ( http://www.legato.com ).   Frankg --  G _______________________________________________________________________   G Die unaufgeforderte Zusendung einer Werbemail an Privatleute verstoesst A gegen 1 UWG und 823 I BGB. Beschluss des LG Berlin vom 2.8.19987 (Az: 16 O 201/98)n   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 12:47:59 GMTR- From: kraemer@clri6e.gsi.de (Michael Kraemer)t( Subject: Re: Backup solution: Tivoli TSM4 Message-ID: <a1eppv$2bo$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>  q In article <20020108115611.77482.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>, Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes:g2 > Anyone is using this corporate backup solution ?4 > We are using EMC/EDM and having a lot of troubles.3 > My manager is interested to know if this solutionf5 > (Tivoli TSM) works fine for OpenVMS, AIX, IRIX, Winn > 2000 backups.l > 0 > Or if do you have another suggestions ? Except
 > Veritas. > 4 > The backup server must be Unix (Solaris, AIX or=20 > Tru64) >   ) From end-users point of view it works OK e (client & server == AIX). = Although I find it sometimes hard to remember how to get back A a specific file ( command syntax, has changed several times over R the past years).   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 12:30:05 -0600e+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)u( Subject: Re: Backup solution: Tivoli TSM3 Message-ID: <Vvcc9nJqttFk@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <20020108115611.77482.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>, Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes: 2 > Anyone is using this corporate backup solution ?4 > We are using EMC/EDM and having a lot of troubles.3 > My manager is interested to know if this solution 5 > (Tivoli TSM) works fine for OpenVMS, AIX, IRIX, Winc > 2000 backups.n > 0 > Or if do you have another suggestions ? Except
 > Veritas. > 4 > The backup server must be Unix (Solaris, AIX or=20 > Tru64) >   C 	TSM + VMS , yes... backup server AIX.  Using the only third party uD 	VMS TSM product I know about, ABC... it is a great product and has  	great support:    http://www.storsol.com/u  8 	I wrote a nice 1200+ line DCL wrapper, daily email goes 	out looking like so:u   **************** Speeds and Feeds ****************    = Volume      Label         Data Rate      Elapsed Time           = $1$DGA35    SITE_VOL1     7532.00 Kb/s   8 Min 38 Sec         @ $1$DGA37    SITE_VOL2     8045.58 Kb/s   8 Min 38 Sec      (1)  = $1$DGA39    SITE_VOL3     7042.53 Kb/s   9 Min 55 Sec        e= $1$DGA4098  SITE_VOL4     0.00 Kb/s      0 Min 17 Sec        e= $1$DGA4099  SITE_VOL5     7135.76 Kb/s   12 Min 51 Sec       c= $1$DGA4105  SITE_VOL6     6314.79 Kb/s   10 Min 59 Sec        = $1$DGA8     SITE_VOL7     8225.87 Kb/s   10 Min 12 Sec       o= $1$DGA9     QDISK         0.00 Kb/s      0 Min 6 Sec         -> DSA1        ALPHASYS      3114.04 Kb/s   5 Min 34 Sec      (2)8 DSA600      SITE_VOL8     0.00 Kb/s      0 Min 1 Sec    = DSA700      SITE_VOL9     3135.83 Kb/s   5 Min 45 Sec        9= DSA800      SITE_VOL10    2356.09 Kb/s   3 Min 39 Sec        a= DSA900      SITE_VOL11    3602.31 Kb/s   0 Min 4 Sec         e   ************ Backup Count ************  * 13 backups performed out of an expected 13   ************ Error Status ************   No Errors encounteredv   ----  8 	Deliberately munged/tricked Volume labels, of course...) 	Typical ABC command found in the script:o   $ ! ! $       if InclExcl .nes. "NULL" >
 $       then x6 $               InclExclfile = "/INCLEXCL=''InclExcl'" $       else! $               InclExclfile = ""i
 $       endif> $ !QK $       ABC_COMMAND     =       "ABC INCREMENTAL /IGNORE=INTERLOCK "    + -nK                                 "/SUMMARY=(CREATE,FILE=''SummaryFile')" + -tK                                 "/RECORD=BACKUP"                        + - K                                 "''InclExclfile'"                       + -a1                                 "/CLASS=''Class'"a  A 	They have a "starter" script on their web page.  I believe I did 8 	better, supporting Volume Shadowing, etc.  Family could7 	use a vacation to Brazil, my rates are reasonable. HA!d   				Robu  ? (1)  Shadow member broken out and backed up, re-incorporated...e3 (2)  Shadow set backed up, no members broken out...s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 09:36:13 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went   wrong   at d8 Message-ID: <1rel3ugcajv21rknnhs7cf5d5hockb7lnj@4ax.com>  E On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:44:15 -0500, John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net>s wrote:   >Alan Greig wrote (in part): >e0 >Then it does appear absolutely astonishing you  >wouldn't know!s >e >John Sauter responded:a >l5 >And I remain astonished that I didn't find out until 3 >16 years later that EDT had been ported to TOPS-20 7 >in 1985, even though I worked on TOPS-20 software frome5 >1975 to 1978, and on EDT from 1981 to 1983.  I thinke4 >if we had all stayed in the Mill I would have found >out about the port sooner.h  D Definitely a case of "historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC"D as the thread says. More confirmation the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing.   $    John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 09:26:08 +0000a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went  wrong  at DEh8 Message-ID: <uael3uo5b4oj17egcn1tvjp8lah6v9enfv@4ax.com>  / On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:31:58 -0800, Mark Crispinp <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:   2 >The C compilers for the PDP-10 were all freeware.   Mark,s  C I seem to recall having to jump through hoops to avoid paying largesC sums of money for what my failing memory tells me was called Utah-C F for TOPS-20. We had to prove we were an educational institute and signC lots of paperwork.This may have been for the Unix runtime libraries ? and shell tools rather than the compiler though. Could be wrongr	 though...t  F Btw got your card in the mail today regarding phone stuff and will get that sorted.   >D >>    and most existing C code: >>    assumes char = byte and even numbers of char to int. >i3 >Only C code written by baby programmers does that.e > H >It is not at all difficult to write C code that will compile and run on: >the PDP-10.  All you have to do is follow the C standard. >vI >It is not significantly more difficult to port UNIX C code to the PDP-10aG >than it is to port UNIX C code to Windows, with one exception: I don'taH >think that anyone wrote a sockets library for the PDP-10.  However, theK >native TOPS-20 TCP/IP interface is easier to program than sockets (even in-J >C) so you just comment out the few hundred lines of UNIX code for sockets9 >and replace it with a dozen or so lines of TOPS-20 code.p >M >-- Mark --D >m  >http://staff.washington.edu/mrcG >Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.n   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:57:14 -0600h- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)eY Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went  wrong  at DE.3 Message-ID: <B4y+kJQnvgPB@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  ` In article <uael3uo5b4oj17egcn1tvjp8lah6v9enfv@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:1 > On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:31:58 -0800, Mark CrispinJ! > <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:a > 3 >>The C compilers for the PDP-10 were all freeware.e  D    The only one I saw was a commercial product.  I don't doubt there    were many freeware versions.r  B    When I took my C class and they kept telling me about it's byte?    oriented workings I kept thinking how I would to the same onoA    a PDP-10.  Helped me learn what the language was really about.m,    But Ididn't try to change K&R's opinions.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 16:43:02 GMTt" From: budd@csa.bu.edu (Phil Budne)Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went  wrong  at DEg' Message-ID: <a1f7im$n29$1@news3.bu.edu>   O On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:31:58 -0800, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote: 2 >The C compilers for the PDP-10 were all freeware.  8 In article <uael3uo5b4oj17egcn1tvjp8lah6v9enfv@4ax.com>,' Alan Greig  <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:kD >I seem to recall having to jump through hoops to avoid paying largeD >sums of money for what my failing memory tells me was called Utah-CG >for TOPS-20. We had to prove we were an educational institute and signjD >lots of paperwork.This may have been for the Unix runtime libraries@ >and shell tools rather than the compiler though. Could be wrong
 >though...  L I seem to recall that Utah-C was a port of Kernighan's Unix "PCC", and wouldG have required a Unix licence (which would have required the educationalO status).  B It wasn't commercial software, but it was encumbered by a licence.9 You didn't pay Utah for C, you paid AT&T for the licence!o  G >Btw got your card in the mail today regarding phone stuff and will geta
 >that sorted.    Mark also wrote;I >>It is not at all difficult to write C code that will compile and run on 
 >>the PDP-10.   D I was able to port significant ammounts of C code to BU's 2060 using= Utah C, including troff.  One troff gotcha I remember was the.D assumption that printer description tables were in a.out format.  ItD was a small matter to write a program that output the tables (ratherA than compiling them as stand-alone binaries).  I forget whether Iu8 forged the header, or made fixed troff not to expect it.  E A more significant pain was the assumption that files used only NL asaA a line seperator.  This came came up with one of the bibliography C programs, perhaps it was "refer" -- there was a built in assumption D that a file position returned by ftell() could be restored by use of< fseek(), but the stdio routines were stripping CR's.  ANSI CA f{g,e}etpos() was later specified to return an opaque cookie that"A allows implementations to deal better with this (I've heard theresA is/was a VMS implementation that returns values that are NOT file C positions at all, but just indexes into a list of saved bookmarks); F However, I think refer was writing the indices into an index file, and8 so any attempt to cache cookies in core would have lost.   Mark continued;   J >>It is not significantly more difficult to port UNIX C code to the PDP-10H >>than it is to port UNIX C code to Windows, with one exception: I don'tI >>think that anyone wrote a sockets library for the PDP-10.  However, the L >>native TOPS-20 TCP/IP interface is easier to program than sockets (even inK >>C) so you just comment out the few hundred lines of UNIX code for sockets,: >>and replace it with a dozen or so lines of TOPS-20 code.  D I made an attempt at one at BU that supported TCP, UDP (via the UDP:9 device I wrote, and DECnet) -- the files are available atl1 ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/pdp10/bucs20-anon/socket/.N  C One bit of fun was that TOPS-20 wanted to know the socket endpoints,F (specified by the Berkeley bind/connect calls) when you first open theB JFN, so I did an initial open on the NUL: device, and deferred the? actual TCP:/UDP:/DCN: open until the information was available.u   Here is my gethostbyname.c;  	/*	BUDD @BU/DSG 9/23/85 */    	#include <stdio.h>o 	#include <sys/types.h>r 	#include <netdb.h>e 	#include <sys/socket.h>   	#include "tops20.h" 	#include "mon_networks.h"   	static struct hostent host; 	static unsigned long hostaddr;t 	static char hostname[40];   	struct hostent *s 	gethostbyname(name) 		register char *name; 	{
 		int acs[5];c   		ac1 = GThsn; 		ac2 = POINT( name );# 		if( JSYS(JSgthst, acs) == JSerr )  			return( NULL ); 		hostaddr = ac3;n  ) 		ac1 = GThns;		/* get cannonical name */g 		ac2 = POINT( hostname );# 		if( JSYS(JSgthst, acs) == JSerr )e 			return( NULL );  # 		host.h_addr = (char *) &hostaddr; $ 		host.h_length = sizeof (hostaddr); 		host.h_name = hostname;r 		host.h_addrtype = AF_INET;   		return( &host ); 	}  D I don't think the environment handled file descriptor sharing acrossA fork's well -- each Unix process get's it's own reference to it'scF parent's open files, while on TOPS-20 all forks within a job share the= same JFN table. I think the KCC runtime does a better job, byl= maintaining a shared memory region between related processes.s  F A last gotcha is that "connected directory" on TOPS-20 is JOB WIDE, soC a "CONNECT" in the EXEC effects forks which are already running.  Ip? forget whether the Utah runtime worked around this (caching theaE currently connected directory at process start, and prepending to anya unqualified file open.   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 02 08:22:14 GMTs From: jmfbahciv@aol.com Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong   at DEn+ Message-ID: <a1ehnf$4v7$1@bob.news.rcn.net>o  * In article <3C3A4EEF.24FC91B8@Empire.Net>,+    John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote:d >Alan Greig wrote (in part): > 0 >Then it does appear absolutely astonishing you  >wouldn't know!o >s >John Sauter responded:  >u5 >And I remain astonished that I didn't find out untilI3 >16 years later that EDT had been ported to TOPS-20-7 >in 1985, even though I worked on TOPS-20 software from 5 >1975 to 1978, and on EDT from 1981 to 1983.  I thinkm4 >if we had all stayed in the Mill I would have found >out about the port sooner.-  E Yup.  Lack of communication was one of the straws that messed DEC up.d   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:37:14 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the/3 Message-ID: <yUabDk1pELgR@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  W In article <a1cqfb017e5@drn.newsguy.com>, Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:-O > In article <sJsqVfwoEmbR@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.orgp >>E >>   Interrupts are delivered "between" instructions, not during one.e >> >  > ??? On what architecture?   H    Uncle.  OK, I short changed that one a bit.  I know MOVCx, POLYx, andF    others on VAX are interruptable, but we were really talking about aF    simple ADD.  Do you know of any processor that has an interruptable    integer ADD?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 02:11:40 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 0 Subject: Building large RMS file 250,000 records, Message-ID: <3C3A9BA7.A1365FE6@videotron.ca>  K I am about to start building an RMS file with about 250,000 records, adding  records one by one.M  N Those will be waypoints from a country. (name, type, state/province, latitude,; longitude and unique sequential key and a few more fields).v  M The goal is to be able to extract all waypoints in an area (rectangle bounded8 by 4 lat-long points).  B Should I be looking at splitting this into separate files for eachM state/province and when I extract data, the application would be smart enoughaN to search multiple files should the rectangle span multiple provinces/states ?  L Or should I just build one big file ? If so, what is the concept of breakingJ it into multiple areas ? Will edit/fdl do this automatically for me, or isN there some logic I can give it because I know how the data will be organised ?= (for instance, could each state/province have its own area ?)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 11:00:16 +030034 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>4 Subject: Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records0 Message-ID: <3C3AA710.942C60D2@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>   What is the file organization ?3     JF Mezei wrote:  > M > I am about to start building an RMS file with about 250,000 records, addinge > records one by one.! > P > Those will be waypoints from a country. (name, type, state/province, latitude,= > longitude and unique sequential key and a few more fields).. > O > The goal is to be able to extract all waypoints in an area (rectangle boundedd > by 4 lat-long points). > D > Should I be looking at splitting this into separate files for eachO > state/province and when I extract data, the application would be smart enoughlP > to search multiple files should the rectangle span multiple provinces/states ? > N > Or should I just build one big file ? If so, what is the concept of breakingL > it into multiple areas ? Will edit/fdl do this automatically for me, or isP > there some logic I can give it because I know how the data will be organised ?? > (for instance, could each state/province have its own area ?)i   -- d Cheers,lF +OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker .......................................+E  Russia,Delta Telecom Inc,                    Cel:  +7 (901) 971-3222qE  191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3                     116-3222 F +http://starlet.deltatel.ru ................. SysMan rides HailStorm +   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 03:37:03 -0500n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 4 Subject: Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records, Message-ID: <3C3AAFA6.B5071893@videotron.ca>   "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote: > ! > What is the file organization ?0  ' It will be indexed with at least 3 keysi) (unique id,  latitude, and waypoint name.   N I have debated putting latitude-longitude as a key, but I think it is a bit of a waste.  M I want to be able to do a "start" at one point and scan in a particular order-? to extract all valid waypoints and stop when the range is past.o  E So if I use latitude as key, I can start at lat1, read all records bys@ key:latitude until the latitude is greater than its upper limit.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:07:04 -00004 From: "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk>4 Subject: Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 recordsB Message-ID: <1010480617.10463.0.nnrp-14.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C3A9BA7.A1365FE6@videotron.ca...F > I am about to start building an RMS file with about 250,000 records, adding > records one by one.=  C That will build a severely suboptimal indexed file (bucket splits).nF If you're doing a one-off build, I'd recommend using a sequential file first,, then doing convert/fdl when you're finished.  G > The goal is to be able to extract all waypoints in an area (rectangleo bounded  > by 4 lat-long points).  L If that's the main use, then the best primary key would be some kind of gridK reference with lat/long interleaved, so that you get the required data withe the  minimum reads.  D > Should I be looking at splitting this into separate files for eachH > state/province and when I extract data, the application would be smart enough= > to search multiple files should the rectangle span multiple  provinces/states ? > E > Or should I just build one big file ? If so, what is the concept of1 breakingL > it into multiple areas ? Will edit/fdl do this automatically for me, or isD > there some logic I can give it because I know how the data will be organised ?n? > (for instance, could each state/province have its own area ?)1  7 I'd go for one big file - it's not that big, after all. - No, areas are for eg, data, index 0, index 1.  Up to two areas per index. You can tune via edit/fdl.5 I'd recommend reading through the guide to file apps.a  
 Chris Sharman*   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:17:18 -0600  From: briggs@encompasserve.org4 Subject: Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records3 Message-ID: <w9Ekd6rmtqgb@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  \ In article <3C3A9BA7.A1365FE6@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:M > I am about to start building an RMS file with about 250,000 records, addingl > records one by one.  > P > Those will be waypoints from a country. (name, type, state/province, latitude,= > longitude and unique sequential key and a few more fields).S > O > The goal is to be able to extract all waypoints in an area (rectangle bounded  > by 4 lat-long points). > D > Should I be looking at splitting this into separate files for eachO > state/province and when I extract data, the application would be smart enoughrP > to search multiple files should the rectangle span multiple provinces/states ? > N > Or should I just build one big file ? If so, what is the concept of breakingL > it into multiple areas ? Will edit/fdl do this automatically for me, or isP > there some logic I can give it because I know how the data will be organised ?? > (for instance, could each state/province have its own area ?)t  1 Should you be splitting this into separate files?i  C I wouldn't.  The performance gain available there is the ability tonF distribute load across multiple disk spindles.  Striping and shadowingC are going to be better fits to tap into that particular performance  boost.  F The fact that you might be reducing your index depth would not justifyC this.  You don't want to be opening and closing files.  And you areuB better served with one open file with a big buffer cache than with. several open files with smaller buffer caches.  ( Should you break the file up into areas?  C You can't split the actual record data up into areas.  What you can D split is record data, primary index data, secondary index data, etc.? Each of those classes can be put into a distinct area.  And thetD indexed file scripts within the FDL editor will typically set things@ up with multiple areas.  In particular, you cannot set things up' so that each province has its own area.:  B You haven't asked questions about how you to lay out your records.A It seems to me that that is precisely the area where you have the ? ability to get major performance wins.  And you haven't told us C much about the performance goals, waypoint distribution and requesto pattern.  H I'd be very tempted to divide the map up into grid sections and go for aH record organization where each record would contain waypoint information for a particular grid section.  I Query the map by reading the records for grid sections that are containedo* in or which overlap your target rectangle.  I Update the map by inserting (or deleting) a waypoint from the appropriate  grid section record.  C Handle grid sections with over 32k bytes of waypoint information bydF creating overflow records.  Use grid section ID plus overflow sequenceI number as the primary key.  Optionally include a "last record in section"OJ flag to eliminate the need to read past the last record in a grid section./ (Nice little factor of two optimization there).   H As compared to the straightforward one-record-per-waypoint organization,K this approach has the advantage that rectangle queries are quite efficient.iE Instead of scanning through all longitudes for a given latitude rangetE (or all latitudes for a given longitude range), you're just reading avA small set of relevant records.  Much better wheat to chaff ratio.i  H Waypoint updates are a bit worse.  You need to do a record read, modify,J write back instead of a simple insert or delete.  And you need to code for, the various cases involving record overflow.  G Grid section size would obviously be a key tuning parameter.  You could-G consider the possibility of a non-uniform section size designed to keep01 the number of waypoints per section more uniform.   C If you end up deciding to go with a one-record-per-waypoint layout,wF bucket size is a key tuning parameter.  Since your retrieval techniqueB amounts to a sequential scan, very large bucket sizes are probably a performance win.   Consider global buffers.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 11:46:05 -0500l- From: Jack Patteeuw <jjpatteeuw@peoplepc.com>e4 Subject: Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records, Message-ID: <3C3B224D.DC953434@peoplepc.com>   Chris Sharman wrote: <snip> > You can tune via edit/fdl.  K This is the best advice you can get.  Once the file is filled (or at least PK slows its growth rate), do $ANALYSE/RMS and then $EDIT/FDL/SCRIPT=OPTIMIZE.yC Even if you take all of the defaults, you will greatly improve the  0 performance after you CONVERT/FDL to a new file.  < I don't recall if the OPTIMIZE script ask about changing to < CONTIGIOUS_BEST_TRY but this is another big performance win.  7 > I'd recommend reading through the guide to file apps.r   Yep !    -- C  
 Jack Patteeuww   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:32:49 -0700a+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>l4 Subject: Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records% Message-ID: <3C3B1121.60707@mmaz.com>i   JF Mezei wrote:m  L >I am about to start building an RMS file with about 250,000 records, adding >records one by one. >nO >Those will be waypoints from a country. (name, type, state/province, latitude,n< >longitude and unique sequential key and a few more fields). >hN >The goal is to be able to extract all waypoints in an area (rectangle bounded >by 4 lat-long points).d >u8I would suggest keeping the contents in a single file (better index caching assuming global buffers), I presume you were going to use an indexed structure from your key discussion, but I would also include a lat-long key as well to reduce the skimming through all of the lat records for every single long record.  {As for loading the file, I would not create a shell and load individual records, I would create a sequential file and then ise convert to create the indexed version.  Then once you are up and running, if you do add records on the fly, use the EDIT/FDL analyze to maintain the structure and perhaps issue additional converts based on a modified and tailored FDL for performance...    Barryi   -- e  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 01:51:32 -0800a, From: tony.cheung@asiayeah.com (Tony Cheung)) Subject: C++ Runtime problem with fstream < Message-ID: <f9dc0a5a.0201080151.464ee0b@posting.google.com>   Hi,b  A I am unable to create a file in OpenVMS using fstream without theC ios::trunc.   B I am able to do it using exactly the same code in Solaris/AIX, but" just not able to do so in OpenVMS.    Here's a simple testing program,   #include <string>    int main() {?   std::fstream inout("test.dat", std::ios::in | std::ios::out);  }t  C When running in Unix, an empty test.dat is created. On OpenVMS, thei file is not created.   Any clue why?    Thanks.k   Tony Cheungl   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 09:00:51 -0500f& From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz)% Subject: Re: C-Kermit versus ALL-IN-1i1 Message-ID: <a1eu2j$20c$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>y  , In article <3C3A48A1.7EF80549@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:e : Frank da Cruz wrote:K : > ("unzip -a" to unpack, and you'll need a C compiler to build it.)  ThisdJ : > version has been verified to work interactively, in DCL, in batch, andG : > spawned, but not yet in some of the more esoteric environments likee : > ALL-IN-1 or DECintact. : K : Do you mean using kermit from the "standard" ALL-IN-1 subprocess with the  : fake $ sign ?w :tL I don't even know what I mean.  I've never even seen ALL-IN-1.  Any way thatL you can test Kermit under or in or near or next to ALL-IN-1 would be a help.   - Franki   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:57:56 -00008 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>8 Subject: RE: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media?N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF1A2@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  I My guess is that the 8505's are either fixed in high density mode or havedD compression fixed on. Some models can change density and compression# behaviour from jumpers or switches.nA Our two existing 850x drives appear as TKZ09 and EXB-850085QANXRC G respectively. They both behave indentically as far as I can tell but we3H don't use any 8200 drives these days but can read old 8200 tapes without trouble.  F The 'S' in your Exabyte name code may be significant - single density?   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UK A Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)s     -----Original Message-----@ From: Brian Tillman [mailto:tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com]' Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 10:21 PMe To: John Macallister8 Subject: Re: Can Exabyte 8200s and 8505s exchange media?    # >If your 85XX tape unit cannot readeH >the 8200 tapes now, the most probable issues are that the unit may haveH >8200 mode disabled in the unit configuration (Unlikely but possible), a2 >firmware issue, or you have an alignment problem.  L I have four 8505s (reported by VMS as EXABYTE EXB-85058SQANXBP) that can allE read and write tapes among themselves, which tends to reduce the ideaaK there's a misalignment problem.  When I mount an 8200-written, labeled tapeSG in any of the 8505s, no label is detected.  The same holds true for the  other direction.  G How can I determine if the 8200 mode is disabled or if there might be a K firmware issue?  The 8505s are all in Storageworks cannisers and mounted in  SW shelves.  --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comrA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comi= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent9< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 19:29:46 +0100u9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> 8 Subject: Celko, APL... (Was: Re: VMS and VAX clustering)& Message-ID: <3C3B3A9A.56FB8E8@aaa.com>  < Oh, his collumn in DMSB was the best thing in that paper, at; least if one, as I, like SQL questions. I actualy once sent(? him a mail asking if he could write something about Rdb. Got anc1 answer where he sad some nice things about Rdb...s  ; APL, oh that was nice. Used it on a 360/MVS box to run somea9 reporting tool. Had to buy a special keyboard to our 3270o< emulating terminal. What was that tool called? ADRS maybe...   Jan-Erik Sderholm.o   WILLIAM WEBB wrote:w >  > Wow. > / > I knew Joe Celko way before I started messingi: > with computers (except for APL on a 360 in high school). > % > Didn't realize he was so prominent.  >  > WWWebb   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:46:56 -0500+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@COMPAQ.com>,2 Subject: RE: Clustering nodes at VMS 7.3 and 7.1-2T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B5B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Lee,  > As a suggestion, wrt to OpenVMS V7.3, you may want to considerG installing the Update patch kit that just recently became available. ItiG is a collection of level one patches that have been released since V7.3o started shipping some time ago.   
 Reference:: <http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/public/Readmes/vms/( dec-axpvms-vms73_update-v0100--4.README>  # One long url that will likely wrap.t   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Compaq Canada Corp.e Professional Servicesp Voice: 613-592-4660a Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----+ From: Lee Y T Mah [mailto:lytmah@cha.ab.ca]  Sent: January 7, 2002 1:34 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma. Subject: Clustering nodes at VMS 7.3 and 7.1-2    H Can anyone provide feedback on having ES45' at 7.3 and AS1200's at 7.1-2: in a production cluster?  Has it been reliable and stable? TIA.   -- Lee   ; Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health Authority1? Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSCu4 Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NW? Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 10:40:07 +0000a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>aF Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders8 Message-ID: <ufil3uknhv2dc9tq3veje2ogpk6a02gc4v@4ax.com>  4 On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 13:59:19 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:    L >I can respect the gentleman's opinion (that the merger would in his opinionC >not be a good thing for HWP) but if that's the case he should havetH >registered his opposition right from the get-go. Voting in favor of theK >merger and subsequently mounting a jihad against it is not a prudent move.t  B According to comments I have read he made it clear to the board heF opposed the deal at the time but on legal advice voted to proceed with< the proposal as he was informed that to vote otherwise wouldB immediately sink the deal. He suggests Carly forced the issue to aB vote before he had been able to commission his own analysis. GivenC that is was possible that his own analysis would agree with Carly'ssD marriage proposals - even though he strongly doubted this - he votedE in favour as legal opinion told him this was the only way to keep allhF options open at that point in time. He says he made this very clear to" the rest of the board at the time.  E In other words Carly tried to force the issue and he played for time.eB Obviously he would have preferred not to have done it this way. IfC this is the way it happened it doesn't sound to unreasonable to me.t    >My opinion only.i >o   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 10:50:03 +0000w% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>gF Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders8 Message-ID: <7jjl3u8p7mo750qtlaba3qkci3ntc43llh@4ax.com>  E On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:36:58 -0800, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>e wrote:    O >My understanding of this was that he was the only dissenting vote on the BOD -i >so the mergerM >was going to go ahead with or without his support.  If he voted YES then thea >terms  E I believe that is the legal position but I'm sure I've seen it stated.D that Carly pointed a gun at his head by saying she would not proceed= with *any* merger discussions if the board was not unanimous.J     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 11:40:09 +0000n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>aF Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders8 Message-ID: <gnjl3uo0bm4uu3if5dak9dmo0ic538rof2@4ax.com>  , On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:12:34 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:i  O >If a board member believes that it is in the best interest of shareholders NOTxM >to have the merger, then he should have voted NO with the intent to make the N >merger more costly and thus less attractive and decrease the chances it would >go through.  D Because at that point he did not have all of the information to backF his belief that the merger was a bad idea. He could not risk derailingB a deal completely until he had all the figures in front of him. HeA claims there was no reason for the board to have voted so early -eC especially as he was playing in an orchestra at the annual knees-upi@ for the world's high flyers at the time Carly arranged the board meeting.  E Thus Carly demonstrated her astonishing genius by alienating not justeE Walter Hewlett but probably also half of the captains of industry and F politics at the same time. The sacrifice of "Dull Care" indeed. If youB don't know what I'm talking about go check details of the Bohemian@ Grove gathering Walter was scheduled to attend. Carly supposedlyE intentionally scheduled this critical board meeting knowing full well 5 where Walter Hewlett was scheduled to be at the time.-    From The Sacramento Bee16 http://www.sacbee.com/news/news/local11_19990802.html C MONTE RIO -- The Bohemian Club's Annual Summer Encampment came to anF close here Sunday, ending a two-week retreat for the rich and powerfulF that President Herbert Hoover once called "the greatest men's party onE Earth." The club's famed annual gathering has been held for more thanyA 100 years at the 2,700-acre Bohemian Grove in Monte Rio, about 70sE miles north of San Francisco in Sonoma County. This year's event dreweF in notables such as former President George Bush, Texas Gov. George W.F Bush, Henry Kissinger, retired Gen. Colin Powell, former House SpeakerF Newt Gingrich and Dow Chemical Chairman Frank Popoff, as well as actor Danny Glover.   C The men gather to celebrate what they call "the spirit of Bohemia,"pF said Peter Phillips, a Sonoma State University sociology professor who6 wrote his doctoral dissertation on the Bohemian Club.          -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:21:35 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>kF Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders, Message-ID: <3C3AF247.7FB57AF8@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote: G > I believe that is the legal position but I'm sure I've seen it statedtF > that Carly pointed a gun at his head by saying she would not proceed? > with *any* merger discussions if the board was not unanimous.i  N Then as a matter of princuiple, he should have said that he would abstain fromF voting if she wanted to vote before he had time to research the issue.  M The board as a whole should not have tolertated that HP engage itself in suchiM an endeavour before having had the time for each board member to be satisfied , that this is really the correct thing to do.  M I was once in a DECUS Canada board meeting where the then DEC rep insisted onaJ organising a full fledged symposium to be held november 1999 and the topicL would be Y2K. Of the whole board, I was the only one who opposed this. (that is scary, isn't it?).t  L Not only because I thought it was silly to hold a Y2K symposium in nov 1999,N but also because the board and the user group didn't have the strength, energy7 and resources and volunteers to organise such an event.e  M They voted and the project passed with only one dissenting vote: mine.  I was J then asked to lead it because nobody else wanted to,  and I refused. I wasN almost accused of being a traitor. I responded that I would work to help but IK was in no position to be the lead on a project which I believed was totally G wrong. I left the board the next day. I could have made noise about theiG sillyness I had witnessed but chose not to. The Board never bothered to.M announce my resignation and promptly cut my access to the decus email system. L But when their project flopped big time, the expression "I told you so" came to mind.  L I could not believe that the board members were so lethargic that they wouldJ not oppose an old DEC employee's wish to hold a Y2K symposium in nov 1999.  J If that Hewlett guy felt the deal was wrong, it was his duty to vote NO orL tell Carly to positpone the vote if she wanted him to vote yes. She probablyL forced the issue because she knew that he would work to convince other boardL members and he plan would then flop. But it is far better for such a plan toF flop internally than if it goes public like it did and flops publicly.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 14:38:57 GMTh4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>F Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders. Message-ID: <5wD_7.28053$Sf2.264235@rwcrnsc52>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:ufil3uknhv2dc9tq3veje2ogpk6a02gc4v@4ax.com...6 > On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 13:59:19 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"$ > <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: >0 >hF > >I can respect the gentleman's opinion (that the merger would in his opinionwE > >not be a good thing for HWP) but if that's the case he should haveaJ > >registered his opposition right from the get-go. Voting in favor of theG > >merger and subsequently mounting a jihad against it is not a prudentf move.  >hD > According to comments I have read he made it clear to the board heH > opposed the deal at the time but on legal advice voted to proceed with> > the proposal as he was informed that to vote otherwise wouldD > immediately sink the deal. He suggests Carly forced the issue to aD > vote before he had been able to commission his own analysis. GivenE > that is was possible that his own analysis would agree with Carly's F > marriage proposals - even though he strongly doubted this - he votedG > in favour as legal opinion told him this was the only way to keep allwH > options open at that point in time. He says he made this very clear to$ > the rest of the board at the time. > G > In other words Carly tried to force the issue and he played for time.sD > Obviously he would have preferred not to have done it this way. IfE > this is the way it happened it doesn't sound to unreasonable to me.  >e  F Indeed that may be a legitimate excuse for the gentleman's tactics and@ strategy. One does not get to be a Board member by being stupid.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:27:06 GMTc. From: "Duane Sand" <Duane.Sand@mindspring.com>F Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders, Message-ID: <u5F_7.6783$762.68314@rwcrnsc54>  
 "JF Mezei" > Alan Greig wrote:aI > > I believe that is the legal position but I'm sure I've seen it stateduH > > that Carly pointed a gun at his head by saying she would not proceedA > > with *any* merger discussions if the board was not unanimous.d >dK > Then as a matter of princuiple, he should have said that he would abstaina fromH > voting if she wanted to vote before he had time to research the issue.N > The board as a whole should not have tolerated that HP engage itself in suchO > an endeavour before having had the time for each board member to be satisfiede. > that this is really the correct thing to do.	 >  [snip] L > If that Hewlett guy felt the deal was wrong, it was his duty to vote NO orM > tell Carly to postpone the vote if she wanted him to vote yes. She probablypN > forced the issue because she knew that he would work to convince other boardO > members and the plan would then flop. But it is far better for such a plan to6H > flop internally than if it goes public like it did and flops publicly.  = The actions of W. Hewlett may be morally justifiable from theRB point of view of an HP stockholder, but they really suck, from theC point of view of fair dealings with the company they were proposingnD to become a partner with.  The terms of the merger contract say that@ the BOD has to remain committed to the merger or else a big cash@ penalty gets paid to the other company.  (It doesn't say whether= this means merely 51% vote of the board, or the entire set ofoD directors of the board.)  Another term in the contract says that the: companies cannot have directors, executives, or committees; delegated by them, working on alternative mergers.  And the-9 unwritten terms quoted for the negotiated price seemed too> require unanimity of the board.  The price agreed to by Compaq= for being acquired was based on the premise that the deal wast; indeed fully agreed to by the necessary people and had somea9 chance of being consumated without active undercutting byn< directors.  But now Compaq is definitely not getting what it7 was expecting for that price. This renegade director isl> actively and publically trying to killing the deal.  If Compaq7 wanted to proceed with attempting a merger anyhow undert? such risky and distracting conditions, it would have set a much C higher acquisition price as payoff for taking that additional risk,m* or waited until HP got its house in order.  8 Hewlett is saying he could (legally) vote one way on one? day as a director, just to lock in the negotiated price offered-9 for unanimity, even though Hewlett had every intention ofc8 voting the opposite at every subsequent vote of the BOD. (Have any such votes happened?)g8 And Hewlett could (legally) intend to vote in opposition< with his personal holdings of stock, because that's separate? from his role of director, if done quietly.  But Hewlett is out > there actively getting press and fighting a proxy vote battle;. not the actions of "just another stockholder".  : This active public opposition by a director may be legally8 complying with the merger contract but it sure isn't the7 package that Compaq thought they & HP were agreeing to.0  ,   -- Duane Sand, not speaking for Compaq etc   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:17:22 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>sF Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders8 Message-ID: <cr3m3uckl7ks8pf18nakpg9hjtndqpf48m@4ax.com>  , On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:21:35 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:a   >Alan Greig wrote:H >> I believe that is the legal position but I'm sure I've seen it statedG >> that Carly pointed a gun at his head by saying she would not proceede@ >> with *any* merger discussions if the board was not unanimous. > O >Then as a matter of princuiple, he should have said that he would abstain fromuG >voting if she wanted to vote before he had time to research the issue.a  @ I believe he *infers* that Carly went further and said she would? resign if the board did not support her unanimously. He was noteD prepared to go that far at that point. I'd guess especially so if heA suspected her of bluffing. He insists that his views are properly - recorded in the minutes of the board meeting.o  N >The board as a whole should not have tolertated that HP engage itself in suchN >an endeavour before having had the time for each board member to be satisfied- >that this is really the correct thing to do.   C I don't think the board do tolerate her to be honest. In private itl: would not surprise me if half of the board support Walter.    H >sillyness I had witnessed but chose not to. The Board never bothered toN >announce my resignation and promptly cut my access to the decus email system.M >But when their project flopped big time, the expression "I told you so" came=	 >to mind.?  E Once upon a time I was a student vice -president of Dundee UniversityV? Students Association with responsibility for entertainments and D facilities when a proposal was put forward by the rugby club (large,B loud beer drinking arts faculty students mainly with a passion forD dropping their shorts while downing beer en-masse to a song with theB words "Get 'em down you Zulu warrior") to hold a series of amateurD boxing matches in the Union building complete with bar - 18 drinkingC age in UK. I responded that I would not personally ok such an event.E because I was not at all convinced that it could be held safely under B the circumstances and that if they wanted to hold such an event it> should be held in a suitable boxing club (or sports hall) with? experienced personnel. There had been a recent spate of serious C injuries and deaths at improperly controlled events and the Britishi< Medical Association had just called for them to be banned or
 regulated.  ? The rugby club took this to a council meeting with the power topD overturn my decagons. The debate  showed overwhelming agreement withF my view but when it came to the vote it passed something like 5-3 withF 18 abstentions. The rugby club had a habit of throwing people naked inD the Chemistry School pond in the centre of the campus  (since filledE in) you see... After the vote I then said "If you put me in charge ofsF this project it will happen over my dead body so I suggest you mandateE somebody else." Council then voted something like 21-5 to place me ini charge.i  > Thus they escaped the fear of a naked ducking (which traditionB dictated the university authorities would turn a blind eye to) andC ensured the event would not take place. Despite threats I never didMC end up naked in the sacrificial pond but did go in fully clothed in C ceremonial garb at a university ceremony at the end of  the year as @ the only council exec member to survive a year without going in!  E I never did receive a council reprimand.There is more than one way to1 skin a cat.    >.M >I could not believe that the board members were so lethargic that they would3K >not oppose an old DEC employee's wish to hold a Y2K symposium in nov 1999.  >HK >If that Hewlett guy felt the deal was wrong, it was his duty to vote NO or0M >tell Carly to positpone the vote if she wanted him to vote yes. She probablyc  @ He did tell Carly to postpone the vote. She did not. After beingD backed into a corner he reluctantly followed legal opinion on how he@ should counter her attempt to bounce the board. Thus the minutesE record (according to Hewlett) something like "based on legal advice I D will vote as a director to proceed with the proposal but I must haveF recorded that I intend to argue against and vote my shares against the
 proposal."  M >forced the issue because she knew that he would work to convince other boardtM >members and he plan would then flop. But it is far better for such a plan totG >flop internally than if it goes public like it did and flops publicly.h  D Not if your intention is to derail the deal and scupper Carly all in one.  C I've been on far too many boards and committees for my own good :) a -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 10:09:04 +0000a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>g6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"8 Message-ID: <fmgl3uo0qrt4bo3249qnm6r41qdsannv1u@4ax.com>  , On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:18:22 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:t   >WILLIAM WEBB wrote: >> t; >> I too believe that Messrs. Marcello, Winkler and (nobodye9 >> mentioned) Gorham are doing the best they can with thes: >> resources that the company is allocating for their use. >tO >I think you have a misconception here.  Winkler is the "enemy" , is is the oneeF >who consistently states that Windows will replace mainframes etc etc.  E It is certainly true he has said these things but keep in mind his "IsD have found religion comment" in answer to an email of mine regardingA his previous comments. I don't think he has publicly repeated hist> "Windows everywhere" statements since then. I can't ignore theA possibility he meant it. Nor can I ignore the possibility he justtB intended to throw me off. In response to his "how to grow sales" IE responded with a few points and also suggested he read the previouslytF submitted document had he not already done so. I did not get a further	 response.  -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:03:47 -0500-- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms", Message-ID: <3C3AEE1D.93DE33BC@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote:DG > It is certainly true he has said these things but keep in mind his "I1F > have found religion comment" in answer to an email of mine regarding > his previous comments.  J I never put any weight to his statement. He is perfectly capable of sayingL that just to shut you up. The fact remains that Compaq has continued to makeM "we are moving to industry standard" decisions. The fact remains that WinklertN knew 6 months in advance that Alpha would be killed. Yeah, he's seen religion,< but it wasn't VMS' religion, it was Intel's and Microsoft's.  N Capellas should have fired Winkler the day he oublicly said that Windows wouldK rule the datacentre. The fact that he wasn't fired (and indeed is getting aoJ cushy job at HP means that his views match those of Compaq and vice-versa.  J Have you noticed how the VMS folks are extremely careful not to contradictN Compaq or say anything negative for fear of being fired ? Yet, Winkler is ableK to say things that hurt the image of the enterprise stuff that is left from  Digital and goes unpunished.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 14:36:21 GMTt4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms". Message-ID: <FtD_7.28051$Sf2.264494@rwcrnsc52>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:fmgl3uo0qrt4bo3249qnm6r41qdsannv1u@4ax.com.... > On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:18:22 -0500, JF Mezei' > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:n >  > >WILLIAM WEBB wrote: > >>= > >> I too believe that Messrs. Marcello, Winkler and (nobodye; > >> mentioned) Gorham are doing the best they can with then< > >> resources that the company is allocating for their use. > >nI > >I think you have a misconception here.  Winkler is the "enemy" , is ist the oneeH > >who consistently states that Windows will replace mainframes etc etc. >.G > It is certainly true he has said these things but keep in mind his "IeF > have found religion comment" in answer to an email of mine regardingC > his previous comments. I don't think he has publicly repeated hisl@ > "Windows everywhere" statements since then. I can't ignore theC > possibility he meant it. Nor can I ignore the possibility he justtD > intended to throw me off. In response to his "how to grow sales" IG > responded with a few points and also suggested he read the previouslyoH > submitted document had he not already done so. I did not get a further > response.s  F To play devil's advocate, CPQ is pretty limited right now due to QuietK Period. Either way, maligning Mike Winkler is NOT a way to curry favor fromCH Compaq. It is indeed counterproductive and will dilute whatever positive8 impact the consensus of this group may be able to exert.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 07:36:55 -0600t From: briggs@encompasserve.orgB Subject: Re: Converting indexed file to sequential yields unprikw?3 Message-ID: <VIYF2Ukaah1J@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3C3A1835.CE111220@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:! > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:dC >> If you need strict binary compatibility and have variable lengtheJ >> records, you'll need to decide how you're going to port the out-of-bandI >> end-of-record information from the VMS side into the in-band techniquep" >> you have chosen on the PC side. > O > Wait a minute, can't he just use FTP to transfer the indexed file and it will R > end up as a text file on the PC without the need for a CONVERT on the VMS side ? > L > Doesn't FTP look at the remote host and only transfer "VMS style" when theO > other host identifies itself as a VMS host, ortherwise, it transfers only thesD > record from files and not the index and other control structures ?  G You are correct that an FTP will typically give you the records and notn! the underlying data and metadata.I  L But three tests that I just ran using the Multinet FTP client (client on VMSC side, server on Unix side) indicate that you won't neccessarily getr the record delimiters you want.   B With an ASCII transfer of a VMS indexed file with implied carriageF control, you get record delimiters inserted.  The file will be createdE on the target system with the appropriate native record delimiters.  a  E  How do you distinguish between a target system record delimiter that E  was transfered as an FTP record delimiter and a target system recordi?  delimiter that just happened to appear in a VMS source record?   H With an ASCII transfer of a VMS indexed file with null carriage control,C you get no record delimiters inserted.  You get one massive blob of  data.o  =  How will you detect record boundaries when there aren't any?i  E With a binary transfer you get one massive blob of data, just as with- the null carriage control case.2  =  How will you detect record boundaries when there aren't any?e  A Note that snipped context restricted our attention to VMS indexedl# files with variable length records.4   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:31:48 -05000 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>" Subject: DCL wish list (of 1 item)4 Message-ID: <DgE_7.9376$Q06.59651@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  I I would LOVE that the SEARCH command first opens the INPUT file, then the F output file. Right now it does the reverse and that`s so inconvenient.E In so many procedures I am forced to have 2 different temporary filese because I do things like:y   $ DIR/OUTPUT=F1.LISs& $ SEAR F1.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F2.LIS  5 I would like to keep it to just one temp file, as in:o $ DIR/OUTPUT=F.LIS$ $ SEAR F.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LIS But it spits out:iB %SEARCH-W-OPENIN, error opening DGSI_A1:[TREMBLAY]F.LIS;3 as input1 -RMS-E-FLK, file currently locked by another usere  L This is a 5 minute thing to fix. Can I expect it in a future release, if not& in a patch as a (late) Christmas gift?   THANKS!s   --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)v> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:30:25 +0100v9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>n& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)' Message-ID: <3C3B1091.8498D203@aaa.com>    Try :h $ DELETE F.LIS.* $ DIR/OUTPUT=F.LIS( $ SEAR F.LIS;1 SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LIS;2   Jan-Erik Sderholm     Syltrem wrote: > K > I would LOVE that the SEARCH command first opens the INPUT file, then theeH > output file. Right now it does the reverse and that`s so inconvenient.G > In so many procedures I am forced to have 2 different temporary filesS > because I do things like:o >  > $ DIR/OUTPUT=F1.LISo( > $ SEAR F1.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F2.LIS > 7 > I would like to keep it to just one temp file, as in:e > $ DIR/OUTPUT=F.LIS& > $ SEAR F.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LIS > But it spits out:eD > %SEARCH-W-OPENIN, error opening DGSI_A1:[TREMBLAY]F.LIS;3 as input3 > -RMS-E-FLK, file currently locked by another usern > N > This is a 5 minute thing to fix. Can I expect it in a future release, if not( > in a patch as a (late) Christmas gift? > 	 > THANKS!a >  > -- > 	 > SyltremdK > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)d@ > To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:43:04 +0000o) From: Greg Thomas <thomasgd@omc.bt.co.uk>e& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)8 Message-ID: <0q4m3uk41kura7f1v5hc8n5q7fh7aqlbco@4ax.com>  , On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:31:48 -0500, "Syltrem"1 <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> wrote in articleo) <DgE_7.9376$Q06.59651@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>:h   >$ DIR/OUTPUT=F1.LIS' >$ SEAR F1.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F2.LIS  >l6 >I would like to keep it to just one temp file, as in: >$ DIR/OUTPUT=F.LISc% >$ SEAR F.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LISi >But it spits out:C >%SEARCH-W-OPENIN, error opening DGSI_A1:[TREMBLAY]F.LIS;3 as inputn2 >-RMS-E-FLK, file currently locked by another user  	 How about    $ DIR/OUTPUT=F.LIS' $ SEAR F.LIS;-1 SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LIS    Greg --  5 This post represents the views of the author and doesh5 not necessarily accurately represent the views of BT.s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:48:32 -05000 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)4 Message-ID: <gwE_7.9378$Q06.59637@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  F Obviously but it`s only a workaround. I want the thing to work without having to play around with it.   --   SyltremmI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)s> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  @ "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> a crit dans le message news: 3C3B1091.8498D203@aaa.com... > Try :  > $ DELETE F.LIS.* > $ DIR/OUTPUT=F.LIS* > $ SEAR F.LIS;1 SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LIS;2 >g > Jan-Erik Sderholm >y >d > Syltrem wrote: > >iI > > I would LOVE that the SEARCH command first opens the INPUT file, theno theeJ > > output file. Right now it does the reverse and that`s so inconvenient.I > > In so many procedures I am forced to have 2 different temporary filesn > > because I do things like:  > >l > > $ DIR/OUTPUT=F1.LISe* > > $ SEAR F1.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F2.LIS > >s9 > > I would like to keep it to just one temp file, as in:e > > $ DIR/OUTPUT=F.LIS( > > $ SEAR F.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LIS > > But it spits out:oF > > %SEARCH-W-OPENIN, error opening DGSI_A1:[TREMBLAY]F.LIS;3 as input5 > > -RMS-E-FLK, file currently locked by another usern > > L > > This is a 5 minute thing to fix. Can I expect it in a future release, if notw* > > in a patch as a (late) Christmas gift? > >g > > THANKS!  > >b > > -- > >h > > Syltrem"C > > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - enc	 franais)lB > > To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:37:40 +0100n9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>-& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)' Message-ID: <3C3B1244.69376846@aaa.com>s  6 As a side note, I'd also like that SEARCH don't try to  open it's own output file like :    $ search *.* qwertyuiop /out=g.g  B %SEARCH-W-OPENIN, error opening SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]G.G;1 as input1 -RMS-E-FLK, file currently locked by another userl  ' %SEARCH-I-NOMATCHES, no strings matchede  : Search should be able to tell that the G.G file actualy is= it's own output file. No reason to look into that, is there ?o   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:52:14 -05000 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)4 Message-ID: <KzE_7.9380$Q06.59796@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  L Of course but someone looking at your code and not knowing the input file isF opened AFTER the output file in search, will wonder how this can work!  I This will look like UN*X coding (ie does not make any sense when you reado it, but is effective)t   --   SyltremoI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)i> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  C "Greg Thomas" <thomasgd@omc.bt.co.uk> a crit dans le message news: - 0q4m3uk41kura7f1v5hc8n5q7fh7aqlbco@4ax.com... . > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:31:48 -0500, "Syltrem"3 > <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> wrote in articleh+ > <DgE_7.9376$Q06.59651@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>:r >t > >$ DIR/OUTPUT=F1.LIS) > >$ SEAR F1.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F2.LISe > >s8 > >I would like to keep it to just one temp file, as in: > >$ DIR/OUTPUT=F.LISy' > >$ SEAR F.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LISi > >But it spits out:E > >%SEARCH-W-OPENIN, error opening DGSI_A1:[TREMBLAY]F.LIS;3 as inputi4 > >-RMS-E-FLK, file currently locked by another user >w > How aboutd >  > $ DIR/OUTPUT=F.LIS) > $ SEAR F.LIS;-1 SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LISm >l > Greg > --7 > This post represents the views of the author and does 7 > not necessarily accurately represent the views of BT.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:53:26 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> & Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)' Message-ID: <3C3B15F6.8AB59CCA@aaa.com>d   Or :  5 $ PIPE DIR | SEARCH SYS$INPUT SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LIS   @ That will realy create only create *one* F.LIS, not two version.  	 Jan-Erik.l   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:34:45 -05000 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)4 Message-ID: <CbF_7.9385$Q06.59841@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  / You will find me not co-operative this morning!h  J I don`t like this solution because it requires so many resources (creation of subprocess).u  J A simple change in the sequence of 2 operations (the 2 OPEN statements) inF the SEARCH program would suffice to correct the disliked behavior. And that`s what I want!r  G I know of all the suggestions proposed, but they all are workarounds. II= already use workarounds, and I would like to stop doing that.    Regards,   --   SyltremnI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)i> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  @ "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> a crit dans le message news: 3C3B15F6.8AB59CCA@aaa.com... > Or : > 7 > $ PIPE DIR | SEARCH SYS$INPUT SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LIS  > B > That will realy create only create *one* F.LIS, not two version. >u > Jan-Erik.e   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 11:04:16 -0600v- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)3 Message-ID: <A1ICTqLR+$R4@eisner.encompasserve.org>e   > Syltrem wrote:  8 >> I would like to keep it to just one temp file, as in: >> $ DIR/OUTPUT=F.LIS ' >> $ SEAR F.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LISI >> But it spits out:E >> %SEARCH-W-OPENIN, error opening DGSI_A1:[TREMBLAY]F.LIS;3 as inputs4 >> -RMS-E-FLK, file currently locked by another user  5 	$ SEARCH 'f$search("F.LIS")' SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LIS    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 11:30:47 -0600o From: briggs@encompasserve.org& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)3 Message-ID: <QyWC0sP7oVX5@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  g In article <CbF_7.9385$Q06.59841@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> writes:d1 > You will find me not co-operative this morning!a > L > I don`t like this solution because it requires so many resources (creation > of subprocess).r > L > A simple change in the sequence of 2 operations (the 2 OPEN statements) inH > the SEARCH program would suffice to correct the disliked behavior. And > that`s what I want  D It's a sequence of n+1 operations, not 2.  One would assume that theA current code path opens up the output file and then loops through F the input files.  One obvious implementation technique for your changeD would be to defer the open of the output file until the first bit ofG output was ready to be written to it.  Now you have to make sure you'ven@ found all the places within the code where this can happen.  AndD you've got to make sure that your error handling code works properlyA in all those places.  And you've got to make sure you don't screwn up in any obscure cases.  C (There are other implementation techniques.  Create the output file D first but don't enter it into the directory until later.  Create the9 output file immediately after the first input file open.)i  G And you have to worry about possible compatibility issues.  There's thetD obvious "bug-for-bug" compatibility concern.  Then you have to worryC about the behavior in the "no strings matched" case.  Do you createtF an output file?  Or do you take the opportunity to optimize that away?A Are any customers writing code that that depends on the fact thatrG SEARCH opens its output file immediately upon program execution?  Would"F an indefinite delay between program execution and output file creationD cause any issues?  Does the user want to know up front that they areB searching in a write-protected directory?  Or should we wait untilD a matching string is found to discover and report the problem to him or her?p  @ Is all this even worthwhile given the incremental added utility?   It's not a trivial decision.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 18:36:21 +0100g9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>i& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)' Message-ID: <3C3B2E15.5AA45C79@aaa.com>n   To : John Briggs  & (I wasn't the original poster, but...)  : To me, it whould be fine if SEARCH didn't try to open it's; own output file as input (as in "$ sea *.* /out=somefile").s   Jan-Erik Sderholm   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 12:43:05 -0500  From: Richard <no@mail.com> & Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)8 Message-ID: <rrbm3u43vq9jojg2gj3k5fe69qmpu8fm5r@4ax.com>  M On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:34:45 -0500, "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>d wrote:  0 >You will find me not co-operative this morning! >sK >I don`t like this solution because it requires so many resources (creationa >of subprocess). >nK >A simple change in the sequence of 2 operations (the 2 OPEN statements) ineG >the SEARCH program would suffice to correct the disliked behavior. Andt >that`s what I want! >iH >I know of all the suggestions proposed, but they all are workarounds. I> >already use workarounds, and I would like to stop doing that. >m	 >Regards,>    A Larry's suggestion isn't a workaround - that's the way you do it.F  K I had to slap my head when I read it too!  One of those obvious things thatm sorta escapes you....t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:05:09 -05000 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)4 Message-ID: <nwG_7.9406$Q06.59951@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  L I agree with some of what you say. I certainly simplified too much by sayingI "inverse 2 statements" because I didn`t want to get into too many details L and I don't know exactly how the program is written, but still I`m sure it`sK not such a big thing to change. As for checking for errors etc, that`s whatt subroutines are for.  C Things I find not worth considering is like this one (quote) "WouldiH > an indefinite delay between program execution and output file creation > cause any issues? "pG I don`t think any application`s capacity to function properly should betL based on such concepts which really are internal to the utility program. TheG utility program is meant to do a job and give a result. That`s the onlynH warranty Compaq will ever give on that program. Compaq will never acceptJ responsability for someone assuming a program does things in a certain wayJ or order. Only the result counts (and compliance with other standards like2 being able to use logical name, DECnet path, etc).  J Anyway, I certainly don`t want to start a war. I`m only asking if this canJ be done. If it can`t I`ll just keep on using workarounds, and as we saw inL this thread there are many possible. But the one I will never use is the one
 that goes:) $ SEARCH F.LIS;-1 SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LISnI because it only works if the utility program internals do not change. AndeL there are no warranty whatsoever that they will not. But having said this, I1 think this workaround is very clever nonetheless.m   Regards,   --   SyltremoI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)o> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  8 <briggs@encompasserve.org> a crit dans le message news:( QyWC0sP7oVX5@eisner.encompasserve.org...@ > In article <CbF_7.9385$Q06.59841@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem"( <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> writes:3 > > You will find me not co-operative this morning!  > >MD > > I don`t like this solution because it requires so many resources	 (creation  > > of subprocess).t > >tK > > A simple change in the sequence of 2 operations (the 2 OPEN statements)  inJ > > the SEARCH program would suffice to correct the disliked behavior. And > > that`s what I want >oF > It's a sequence of n+1 operations, not 2.  One would assume that theC > current code path opens up the output file and then loops throughiH > the input files.  One obvious implementation technique for your changeF > would be to defer the open of the output file until the first bit ofI > output was ready to be written to it.  Now you have to make sure you've B > found all the places within the code where this can happen.  AndF > you've got to make sure that your error handling code works properlyC > in all those places.  And you've got to make sure you don't screwr > up in any obscure cases. >dE > (There are other implementation techniques.  Create the output fileaF > first but don't enter it into the directory until later.  Create the; > output file immediately after the first input file open.)o > I > And you have to worry about possible compatibility issues.  There's the F > obvious "bug-for-bug" compatibility concern.  Then you have to worryE > about the behavior in the "no strings matched" case.  Do you createiH > an output file?  Or do you take the opportunity to optimize that away?C > Are any customers writing code that that depends on the fact that I > SEARCH opens its output file immediately upon program execution?  Would-H > an indefinite delay between program execution and output file creationF > cause any issues?  Does the user want to know up front that they areD > searching in a write-protected directory?  Or should we wait untilF > a matching string is found to discover and report the problem to him	 > or her?s >aB > Is all this even worthwhile given the incremental added utility? >  > It's not a trivial decision. >F
 > John BriggsF   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:12:58 -05000 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)4 Message-ID: <GDG_7.9408$Q06.59944@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  C > Larry's suggestion isn't a workaround - that's the way you do it.   I I like his suggestion very much. Actually, it`s the best so far. But it`s F still a workaround for me, as it`s not plain syntax. You`ve got to use	 lexicals.i  K But I like it and I will adopt it (until the SEARCH program is modified andf" that may be a long time from now!)   --   Syltrem-I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)a> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  5 "Richard" <no@mail.com> a crit dans le message news:3- rrbm3u43vq9jojg2gj3k5fe69qmpu8fm5r@4ax.com...U. > On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:34:45 -0500, "Syltrem"  <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> > wrote: > 2 > >You will find me not co-operative this morning! > >eC > >I don`t like this solution because it requires so many resourcesa	 (creationo > >of subprocess). > >aJ > >A simple change in the sequence of 2 operations (the 2 OPEN statements) inI > >the SEARCH program would suffice to correct the disliked behavior. And= > >that`s what I want! > > J > >I know of all the suggestions proposed, but they all are workarounds. I@ > >already use workarounds, and I would like to stop doing that. > >o > >Regards,I >: >EC > Larry's suggestion isn't a workaround - that's the way you do it.r >eH > I had to slap my head when I read it too!  One of those obvious things that > sorta escapes you....    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 13:23:15 -0500p From: Richard <no@mail.com>n& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)8 Message-ID: <q6em3u40jrffgcce0oqhn6ad8h0vkja3cg@4ax.com>  M On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:12:58 -0500, "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>  wrote:  D >> Larry's suggestion isn't a workaround - that's the way you do it. > J >I like his suggestion very much. Actually, it`s the best so far. But it`sG >still a workaround for me, as it`s not plain syntax. You`ve got to user
 >lexicals.  L I don't know about you, but to me DCL just wouldn't be DCL without lexicals.G They make the world a very happy place (as you can see first hand now).i   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 02:53:37 -0800I5 From: pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk (pat saunders)g! Subject: decnet /osi AND set hostn= Message-ID: <bc0e3bd8.0201080253.420c069f@posting.google.com>u   hi, C   I have a microvax 3100-30 with decnet-osi v4 installed. I can SET-D HOST successfully to every other vax with decnet-osi v4 installed onD it. My problem is when I SET HOST to a vax box with DECNET-VAX V4 onD it. I can SET HOST successfully when I use the address, I.E SET HOSTD 10.45 but not when I SET HOST <NODE_NAME>. I presume this is down to theg$ DECNET_LOC_NODE_DEFINITIONS.TXT file  ) the entry for this box reads as follows :u  F NODE_NAME=.BGNT               SYNONYM=BGNT    PHASE=4  ADDRESS=10.45 -   TOWERS= -    { -p+     (NSP, 49::00-0A:AA-00-04-00-2D-28:20) -    }-  0 when I SET HOST to BGNT , it just hangs forever.   Any Help Appreciated.s PatJ   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 13:17:51 GMT8= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)T% Subject: Re: decnet /osi AND set hostP0 Message-ID: <00A07BA5.6D7E418F@SendSpamHere.ORG>  u In article <bc0e3bd8.0201080253.420c069f@posting.google.com>, pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk (pat saunders) writes:g >hi,D >  I have a microvax 3100-30 with decnet-osi v4 installed. I can SETE >HOST successfully to every other vax with decnet-osi v4 installed onoE >it. My problem is when I SET HOST to a vax box with DECNET-VAX V4 onHE >it. I can SET HOST successfully when I use the address, I.E SET HOSTfE >10.45 but not when I SET HOST <NODE_NAME>. I presume this is down toT >the% >DECNET_LOC_NODE_DEFINITIONS.TXT file- >N* >the entry for this box reads as follows : >iG >NODE_NAME=.BGNT               SYNONYM=BGNT    PHASE=4  ADDRESS=10.45 -h >  TOWERS= - >  { -, >    (NSP, 49::00-0A:AA-00-04-00-2D-28:20) - >  } > 1 >when I SET HOST to BGNT , it just hangs forever.  >H >Any Help Appreciated. >Pat   $ MCR DECNET_REGISTERg   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            rJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes?   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:25:02 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?? Message-ID: <20020108112502.6397.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>N   Well  1 I work for Compaq at Petrobras. I work for the=20K+ Professional Services, and Petrobras has=20S, a 24x7x365 contract (hardware and software).. So, even I work for Compaq, I must open a call. when there is a "real" problem. I dont have=20 access to the Compaq databases.k1 When i say "real" problem, means my RWAST problema6 which completed one year (happy birthday) in December./ The problems I use to open a call, are the mosts2 complicated, which usually needs an engineering=203 help. So, the day by day problems, I ask here in=20 3 the news group.  What I fell is: here we have a lotd2 of good information - I fell there is a lack of=20, existance of an "OpenVMS Technet" os similar' with informations compiled from the ng.a     Regardss   FC=20e  - --- Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote:l3 > I'm just curious with all the posts on this boardp > seeking help for4 > VMS questions or problems from people who work for > companies or3 > institutions of higher learning ... do you have a7 > VMS software2 > support contract and do you ever use it?  Bronze > level support canr- > be bought for roughly $700/year compared to  > $1700/year for NT support ...c > what a bargain!D     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D$L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3De F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil= fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D-  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:05:50 -00008 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>2 Subject: RE: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?N Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF1A3@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  K We still have DECcampus support and it still works. The telephone maze getsrI progressively worse over time but then that's been my experience with alle+ phone contacts with any company these days.e   John  B Name: John B. Macallister  E-mail: j.macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk= Post: Denys Wilkinson Building, Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3RH,UKcA Phone: +44-1865-273388 (direct)  273333 (reception)  273418 (Fax)$     -----Original Message-----6 From: bob@instantwhip.com [mailto:bob@instantwhip.com]' Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:15 AMs To: John Macallister. Subject: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?    B I'm just curious with all the posts on this board seeking help for? VMS questions or problems from people who work for companies ora> institutions of higher learning ... do you have a VMS softwareB support contract and do you ever use it?  Bronze level support canI be bought for roughly $700/year compared to $1700/year for NT support ...s what a bargain!e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:18:52 -05000 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?4 Message-ID: <ccD_7.9356$Q06.59773@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   >> - I fell there is a lack of/ >> existance of an "OpenVMS Technet" os similarL* >> with informations compiled from the ng.  J Get connected to DSIN! Lots of information there! This is the same idea as M$ TechNet.e   --   SyltremnI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)r> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  H "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> a crit dans le message news:4 20020108112502.6397.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com... Well  . I work for Compaq at Petrobras. I work for the( Professional Services, and Petrobras has, a 24x7x365 contract (hardware and software).. So, even I work for Compaq, I must open a call+ when there is a "real" problem. I dont have0 access to the Compaq databases.s1 When i say "real" problem, means my RWAST probleme6 which completed one year (happy birthday) in December./ The problems I use to open a call, are the most,/ complicated, which usually needs an engineerings0 help. So, the day by day problems, I ask here in3 the news group.  What I fell is: here we have a lotu/ of good information - I fell there is a lack of), existance of an "OpenVMS Technet" os similar' with informations compiled from the ng.      Regardso   FC  - --- Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote:d3 > I'm just curious with all the posts on this boarda > seeking help for4 > VMS questions or problems from people who work for > companies or3 > institutions of higher learning ... do you have al > VMS software2 > support contract and do you ever use it?  Bronze > level support can - > be bought for roughly $700/year compared ton > $1700/year for NT support ...e > what a bargain!      =====w ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:20:36 -05000 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?4 Message-ID: <QdD_7.9357$Q06.59728@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  J > I have Silver support and I use it extensively.  However, it never hurts toF > get the benefit of experience from other VMS users to complement the! > assistance from Compaq Support.  Same for me!E And I should say the people in the support group are most helpful andoJ knowledgeable. We do have support contract with all our software providersI and many (though not all) are not half as good as the people at CompaQ. IfF only call for real, critical, problems, not for general questions on aI command usage, or "how would you do this" etc.. For these I write to thise ng.h   --   SyltremsI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)a> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  > "Lee Y T Mah" <lytmah@cha.ab.ca> a crit dans le message news: 3C3A7674.D10B2274@cha.ab.ca...J > I have Silver support and I use it extensively.  However, it never hurts toF > get the benefit of experience from other VMS users to complement the! > assistance from Compaq Support.R >d > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > F > > I'm just curious with all the posts on this board seeking help forC > > VMS questions or problems from people who work for companies or:B > > institutions of higher learning ... do you have a VMS softwareF > > support contract and do you ever use it?  Bronze level support canI > > be bought for roughly $700/year compared to $1700/year for NT supporto ...d > > what a bargain!  >d > -- > Leee >i= > Lee Y T Mah                        Capital Health AuthorityqA > Email: lytmah@cha.ab.ca            Information Systems, RAH CSC 6 > Phone:  (780) 477-4725, 477-4233   10240 Kingsway NWA > Fax:      (780) 491-5119, 491-5619    Edmonton, AB, CAN  T5H3V9e >e >i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 14:33:46 +0000,( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?) Message-ID: <3C3B034A.E2838813@127.0.0.1>i   Bob Ceculski wrote:t >t! >  ... do you have a VMS software , > support contract and do you ever use it?    ' Platinum level (including some on PVS).   ? Yes we use it after we we've exhausted the online databases and5 experience of our group.  > i.e. not that often considering the number of systems covered.   -- g( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comm   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 17:04:56 GMTs2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?2 Message-ID: <YEF_7.405$5Y4.11265@news.cpqcorp.net>  g In article <ccD_7.9356$Q06.59773@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> writes:o :>> - I fell there is a lack of(0 :>> existance of an "OpenVMS Technet" os similar+ :>> with informations compiled from the ng.s :nK :Get connected to DSIN! Lots of information there! This is the same idea ash :M$ TechNet.  I   OpenVMS technical information is available via http://askq.compaq.com/,l5   select the OpenVMS database and enter your query...t   :eI :"Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> a crit dans le message news:c5 :20020108112502.6397.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com...s :Well  :a/ :I work for Compaq at Petrobras. I work for then) :Professional Services, and Petrobras hasn- :a 24x7x365 contract (hardware and software). / :So, even I work for Compaq, I must open a callI, :when there is a "real" problem. I dont have  :access to the Compaq databases.  9   I'll pass some related details along to Fabio directly.B    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 17:47:04 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?0 Message-ID: <3C3B2FD3.28D5B2C6@blueyonder.co.uk>   Bob Ceculski wrote:  > D > I'm just curious with all the posts on this board seeking help forA > VMS questions or problems from people who work for companies orv@ > institutions of higher learning ... do you have a VMS softwareD > support contract and do you ever use it?  Bronze level support canK > be bought for roughly $700/year compared to $1700/year for NT support ...n > what a bargain!o   Bobu  E even if you have a support contract the problem can in my experiences / sometimes if not often be answered sooner here.O   regardss   -- t Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  p  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of u! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 12:56:05 -0600s- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)t2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?3 Message-ID: <AJQv4Vyuo0$o@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <ccD_7.9356$Q06.59773@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> writes:g >>> - I fell there is a lack of 0 >>> existance of an "OpenVMS Technet" os similar+ >>> with informations compiled from the ng.t > L > Get connected to DSIN! Lots of information there! This is the same idea as
 > M$ TechNet.e  D    Get real.  DSIN predates PCs.  M$ TechNet is the same ideia as so    many before it.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:18:05 -0500# From: "Tom Cole" <tom.cole@sas.com>  Subject: Re: Emulation...i/ Message-ID: <a1f2jd$pba$1@license1.unx.sas.com>i  A CHARON-VAX works under Virtual PC 5.0 at least; though as you say G performance isn't great... it (well, Virtual PC at least) actually runssD faster under Mac OS 9 than Mac OS X which is rather disappointing...    ? In article <3C36B69F.C5525F56@mcmail.maricopa.edu>, Carl Nelsona) <carl.nelson@mcmail.maricopa.edu> writes:  >fH >   Could I run Charon-VAX on the emulated PC running windows 2000 on my > Macintosh? I'mG > not asking about performance, which will probably be truly unamazing.r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 19:24:59 +01002 From: "Robert Boers" <robert.boers@softresint.com> Subject: Re: Emulation...-* Message-ID: <3c3b397d$1@news.deckpoint.ch>  ! Yes, actually two solutions here:v  I The Logical Company (Cottage Grove,OR) has an IEEE488 PCI controller (DCIGL 3100) which we support. It is a clone of the IEQ11 (except for the PCI bus),L so that the existing VMS drivers work, they think they see a standard IEQ11.J They developed more of these cards for CHARON-VAX (e.g. DCI 1100 for DRV11 or DR11-C replacement).u  J General PCI devices could be made visible in the emulated environment, butI existing VAX drivers would not know how to work with them, and they wouldp7 have to have at least Qbus like registers to be usable.e  L The same company sells a Qbus adapter (BCI 2104), a connection between a PCII slot and an existing Qbus backplane. Any physical Qbus peripheral on thatkK backplane is added transparently to the peripherals emulated by CHARON-VAX,sD and existing drivers work. This way you can boot for instance from a$ (non-emulated) Qbus disk controller.   Robert Boers robert.boers@softresint.com   F "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote in message news:3c3a2d7b$1@news.si.com...K > >The full function CHARON-VAX products emulate a MicroVAX 3600 with 64 MBtL > >memory and include Ethernet adapter emulation (DELQA, DESQA, DEQNA, etc). >sF > Are PCI-based devices in the PC available to the VAX emulation?  ForG > example, if I have a PCI-based IEEE 488 or 1553 interface card, can IE access > it within the emulation? > --C > Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com C > Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com ? > 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent1> > Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@": >        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company >@ >.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:28:20 -05002 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>O Subject: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimatesc2 Message-ID: <GRG_7.409$5Y4.11407@news.cpqcorp.net>   January 8, 2002i    ( Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimates   By CHRIS GAITHER  E Compaq Computer (news/quote), the No. 2 personal computer maker, saidmJ yesterday that it would report stronger-than-expected sales for the fourthA quarter and a profit instead of the narrow loss it had predicted.   I With little elaboration, Compaq said preliminary figures from the quartertL ended Dec. 31 indicated that the company had surpassed its own forecasts and) the expectations of Wall Street analysts.s  H Sales still lagged the fourth quarter of 2000, by nearly one- third, butK showed sharp improvement from the troubled third quarter, when the Sept. 11NK attacks and other unexpected events cut sharply into sales and profits, the H company said. The company suggested that the progress reported yesterdayJ served to refute claims by rival computer makers that the beleaguered planI for Hewlett- Packard to acquire Compaq had distracted both companies fromD their daily business.   L "These results represent strong execution and Compaq's solid momentum in theJ marketplace," Michael D. Capellas, chairman and chief executive of Compaq,E said in a statement. "I am extremely proud of our employees and their 3 continued focus on our business and our customers."-  L Compaq, based in Houston, said it would report sales of at least $8 billion,I compared with its earlier prediction of $7.6 billion to $7.8 billion. The>G better-than-expected sales will yield a profitable quarter, the companyvF said, beating Wall Street's expectations of a loss of 3 cents a share.  K Arch Currid, a spokesman for the company, said it would report a profit "nosL matter how you slice it," either including or excluding one-time items, when$ it reports final results on Jan. 16.  D Wall Street analysts, who predicted a dreary fourth quarter for manyJ computer vendors, said Compaq was helped by better- than-expected sales in% Europe and in American retail stores.A  K Gateway, a rival computer maker, failed to improve its sales from its third G quarter. Gateway yesterday repeated its prediction that it would post aEB profit for its fourth quarter, excluding one- time items, but saidL preliminary figures indicated sales of $1.16 billion, down from $1.4 billion in the third quarter.(  L According to a study put out yesterday by Salomon Smith Barney, consumers inK the United States bought more personal computers during the holidays, after H poor demand for most of 2001. Sales doubled during Thanksgiving week andE finished the year strong, leading to a 30 percent gain from the thirdoG quarter to the fourth. Compaq gets about 15 percent of its revenue from  consumer PC sales.  G Still, Richard Gardner, an analyst with Salomon Smith Barney, said that I corporations continued to spend frugally on new computers. PC makers sold5G fewer machines during the holidays than during the comparable period ineI 2000 - an excellent year for computer sales. Salomon Smith Barney said itpI did not expect that trend to reverse until the economy begins to recover,o( possibly in the second half of the year.  I Shortly before Compaq released its preliminary figures yesterday morning,uJ Lehman Brothers (news/quote) upgraded its rating on the company's stock toE strong buy. Daniel T. Niles, an analyst with Lehman Brothers, said henH thought that programs begun last year to cut costs, reduce inventory andL better mimic the direct sales model used by Dell Computer (news/quote) would bear fruit in 2002.<  F Mr. Niles said corporate customers have apparently stayed with Compaq,E despite growing uncertainty surrounding its deal with Hewlett-PackardhJ (news/quote). A bitter proxy fight between Hewlett- Packard and one of itsI board members, Walter Hewlett, has threatened to derail the merger plans. L But since the deal was announced in early September, Compaq has continued toH sign large contracts with customers like Ericsson (news/quote), Raytheon- (news/quote) and General Motors (news/quote).3  K Mr. Currid, the company spokesman, said Compaq had beaten Dell, the world's J leading PC maker, and other rivals in head-to-head competition for severalC contracts since the merger was announced in early September. "We're_/ continuing to win in the marketplace," he said.u  F In regular trading, shares of Compaq rose 29 cents, to $11.68. Gateway gained 43 cents, to $10.25.-       begin 666 c.gif = M1TE&.#EA'P`B`,0``/_____O[_?>WN_.SN^]O>>MK=Z<G-Z,C-:$A,YS<\YCl= M8\924KU"0KTQ,;4A(:T0$*T````````````````````````````````````` = M`````````````````````````"'Y! $`````+ `````?`"(`0 7F("".)% DF= M# -!*5*4L+G.- $?-'V,.8W$P%BB-[/!`H[>(B@B*(@K!R+ '#VAV)6AA( V = MJLQKSP$&$[)H1?7P0,\>6^ 9VU @5%#U*("-P_ ](X Y/V4Q@S1ZAB4#?4PYs= M=50C0U .+TV(44$&;6XS"Y)5`@J=4 \)H6&>.0E!E*L]`C -ID9-I3FR(PM0 = M##%\1+XB!5BI)%T-*0P("0BZF2O"BR2T1(73(TG6V"30+-PC.%"Z0 H+" 3& = M`-H]7T &1"0"=.IB-'XB`;BP,Y<P\/Q6-%!70H"W' ]V<"-P``$S%^2 A ``y !.P``n `  endi   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:54:12 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> , Subject: Re: GETUAI Utility and EXTAUTH Flag' Message-ID: <3C3AA5A4.BB2E1F56@aaa.com>   2 Could a copy of the updated GETUAI be forwarded to Hunter's archive at Process ?'* http://www.process.com/openvms/index.html.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.M   Carl Karcher wrote:  > / > I've added this. Ftp to: ftp.waisman.wisc.eduo& > Look in directory VMS for getuai.zip > A > I also have a /RIGHTS_ID qualifier for GETUAI which will returntJ > the user's rights list. That's not in the zip file above but I'll add it
 > shortly.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:30:59 -0000:- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)a7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!p7 Message-ID: <91907EB08warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>>  + billtodd@metrocast.net (Bill Todd) wrote ine8 <7au_7.567170$8q.46284408@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>:    >i; >"Warren Spencer" <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote in messagen2 >news:918F87BF5warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100...? >> rw@eircom.net (Russell Wallace) wrote in <3c3991cf.178445555e >> @news.eircom.net>:  >>8 >> >On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 13:57:05 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"& >> ><terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote: >> >I >> >>This will change when $999 IPF boxes become available down the road.o >> >F >> >What makes you think this will happen? IPF is big, complicated andA >> >expensive; the only way it'll ever be cheap is if it sells intE >> >enormous volumes, and I'm not clear there's any reason to suppose 3 >> >substantial numbers of people will ever buy it.t >> > >>F >> Don't forget Microsoft's proven talent at forcing migration through >> API p >andG >> feature manipulation.  The anti-trust judgement against MS goes intop1 >> quite some detail of how they accomplish this.  > A >So what?  While Microsoft has never shown too much reluctance tolI >implement new software versions that require hardware upgrades, this has E >never appeared to constitute a *desire* to require such upgrades butdF >rather simple reluctance to expend effort optimizing new software forE >existing hardware. And the upgrades required have almost always beeneB >incremental rather than fork-lift (e.g, adding memory to maintainH >performance - though at least one previous generation of machines couldE >usually be used if lack-luster performance with the new software wase >acceptable).  >eI >Microsoft would need to have a compelling reason to field a product thateG >absolutely would not run on any existing Windows machines in the fieldaH >(even if they were incrementally upgraded) - especially in light of itsF >new corporate direction that emphasizes .NET services that the widestI >possible audience should be able to 'enjoy'.  Why would it shoot its ownMG >market in the foot (by requiring a new hardware platform) just to make- >Intel happy?  >n >- bill2  G You're right - I don't think they would.  But I don't think they'll do D *nothing* either.h   ws   -- r   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)  The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 07:24:16 GMTp From: robert@bonomi.invalidh: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <A8x_7.783$Kf.14368@ord-read.news.verio.net>  ) In article <a1cvim01n9f@drn.newsguy.com>,l- Tim Shoppa  <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote: O >In article <gUl_7.762$Kf.13753@ord-read.news.verio.net>, robert@bonomi.invalidn >says... >>0 >>In article <ur8p2zj4s.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>,7 >>Christopher Stacy  <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US> wrote:lE >>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 04:59:13 GMT, robert  ("robert") writes:cG >>> >> Of course, we're all computing professionals and none of us have>5 >>> >> ever made a mistake typing a command line :-).bI >>> robert> UNIX was developed from the premise of "the user *knows* whatr >>>he's doing". F >>>robert> and geerally makes no attempt to second-guess what the user >'intended'. >>>SE >>>This is what all experienced users want, but above all, the system H >>>should be forgiving, most mistakes should not be fatal, and it shouldI >>>not be so poorly designed that it's just a wasteland of land mines and. >>>tar pits. >>> I >>>For just one example: deleting a file should be a decision that can betE >>>(guaranteed) reviewed and rescinded after the fact, or at least it C >>>should not be easy to accidently wildcard delete a lot of files. C >>>It should also be configurable so that different users  can have@K >>>different levels of protection from doing things that might be mistakes.  >>>2F >>>Um, isn't this all stuff that everybody learned about in the 1970s? >>E >>OH! I get it.  he thinks rm(1) should have an 'interactive' option.0 >aE >No, in fact the "rm -i" aka "rm --interactive" is probably the worstc@ >thing that ever happened.  Folks alias "rm" to "rm -i" in theirE >.login script, so they get used to saying "I'll just rm * and say noaH >to the ones I don't want to delete."  They then use a different accountD >or for some reason .login isn't executed, they type "rm *", and ... >tA >What makes this even worse is that many sysadmins set up a bunch D >of default aliases for "new users", among them the "rm -i" blunder.! >This is purely a BOFH move IMHO.s >   I *ABSOLUTELY*IN*AGREEMENT* on 'alias rm rm -i'.  The specific failure-mode4G you disucss has _long_ been known in human-factors circles. *Published*:H discussions of why that kind of aliasing is a bad thing can be found 20+
 years ago.  G Does *not* mean the option, _itself_ is a bad thing -- the crime is thet aliasing _to_the_same_name_r   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 07:40:17 GMTc From: robert@bonomi.invalidf: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <Bnx_7.784$Kf.14367@ord-read.news.verio.net>  @ In article <Stu_7.19967$Oc.1701234@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,) Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:d >b9 >"Tim Shoppa" <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote in messagep$ >news:a1cvim01n9f@drn.newsguy.com...; >> In article <gUl_7.762$Kf.13753@ord-read.news.verio.net>,c >robert@bonomi.invalid
 >> says... >> >2 >> >In article <ur8p2zj4s.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>,9 >> >Christopher Stacy  <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US> wrote:w >) >... >eG >> >>This is what all experienced users want, but above all, the systemeJ >> >>should be forgiving, most mistakes should not be fatal, and it shouldK >> >>not be so poorly designed that it's just a wasteland of land mines ande >> >>tar pits. >> >>-K >> >>For just one example: deleting a file should be a decision that can benG >> >>(guaranteed) reviewed and rescinded after the fact, or at least it-E >> >>should not be easy to accidently wildcard delete a lot of files.nE >> >>It should also be configurable so that different users  can haveeM >> >>different levels of protection from doing things that might be mistakes.. >> >> H >> >>Um, isn't this all stuff that everybody learned about in the 1970s? >> >G >> >OH! I get it.  he thinks rm(1) should have an 'interactive' option.  >>G >> No, in fact the "rm -i" aka "rm --interactive" is probably the worstmB >> thing that ever happened.  Folks alias "rm" to "rm -i" in theirG >> .login script, so they get used to saying "I'll just rm * and say noiJ >> to the ones I don't want to delete."  They then use a different accountF >> or for some reason .login isn't executed, they type "rm *", and ... >a >... >oG >> >In human-factors studies, 'predictability' has been found to be the H >> >most important single factor in differentiating a good design from a >> >bad one. >> >> I agree with you 100% here. > H >At the risk of interjecting some concreteness into what appears to be a$ >primarily philosophical discussion: >6J >On the subject of file deletion, I've often thought that deferred garbageD >collection offered a kinder alternative that avoided such issues asM >automatically saying 'I mean it' and then suffering later regrets.  It wouldtL >allow deleted files to be recovered for (nearly) as long as their space wasM >not needed elsewhere by the system (even across user logout, unlike the TOPSpM >example), which would give a user at least a reasonable chance of recoveringsH >from a mistake without cluttering up the interface (i.e., delete reallyL >means delete, but you *usually* have the opportunity to reconsider for some >period afterwards). >8M >But it's intrinsically not predictable (e.g., a system with very little freeuK >storage space and high activity levels would be far less likely to be ablerJ >to recover a deleted file than others).  Is that really a problem in this >case?  J Short answer:   yes.  *IF* the users come to rely on the 'normal' behaviorI of a system with lots of free-space, and low activity levels, they _will_lK have some *very*rude* surprises when they move to a high-activity/low-free- G space system.  Reduction-to-absurdity example.  they want to see what's F in the directory *other* than a specific type of file.  so they deleteN all of that type, do a listing, and 'undelete'.  *EXPECTING* to get everythingJ back.  Guess what happens on a resource-starved system?   And, believe me,' users *do* do this kind of 'silliness'.@  G People do -not- build patterns of action based on the _defined_ system pH behavior.  but the "percieved" behavior.   And fault the system _design_, when reality differs from those perceptions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 09:12:36 +0000e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <s4dl3usgfp0c4dvsq06jskgm27vmht518h@4ax.com>  F On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 04:22:10 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:    J >On the subject of file deletion, I've often thought that deferred garbageD >collection offered a kinder alternative that avoided such issues asM >automatically saying 'I mean it' and then suffering later regrets.  It wouldpL >allow deleted files to be recovered for (nearly) as long as their space wasM >not needed elsewhere by the system (even across user logout, unlike the TOPScM >example), which would give a user at least a reasonable chance of recoveringf  F Under TOPS-20 you could logout without performing an implicit expunge.F The expunge was just the default action. Can't remember offhand if theD expunge (deldf% I think) was performed by the EXEC command processorA or the lgout% jsys itself but it was possible to override.TOPS-20rB would only remove deleted but not yet expunged files itself if theD space on the disk dropped below a critical threshold. In this case aD system message was broadcast to all logged in users worded something likeD [Diskspace low on structure PS: Starting Expunge of deleted files inF 30 seconds]. Can't recall offhand if a program could enable a software interrupt on this condition. 1  H >from a mistake without cluttering up the interface (i.e., delete reallyL >means delete, but you *usually* have the opportunity to reconsider for some >period afterwards). >,M >But it's intrinsically not predictable (e.g., a system with very little free K >storage space and high activity levels would be far less likely to be ableeJ >to recover a deleted file than others).  Is that really a problem in this >case?  D You've described exactly how TOPS-20 operated and I didn't find it a problem. >t >- billo >  >s   -- Alan   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 02 08:38:54 GMTa From: jmfbahciv@aol.come: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1eimn$4v7$3@bob.news.rcn.net>i  * In article <3C3A47F6.4D37E7D4@Empire.Net>,+    John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote:s, >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote (highly excerpted): >e >When I typed on an ASR36, ....d >e >John Sauter teased: >b< >What's an ASR36?  Maybe you mean an ASR35, the "battleship" >teletype? q  < Heh.  I actually had it right when I first typed it in; then? I thought for a second and changed it.  Then I changed it back;n< then I thought again for a second and changed it.  There was? a terminal that was named off-by-one.  It had an awful keyboardo9 for those who touch-typed but it did do upper/lower case.m    4 > ... You couldn't have meant the LA36, its keys all >sounded alike.c  < Oh, no.  Not those.  They sucked.  Not only was the keyboard= bad and the print awful but you could never see what you just : typed.  Obviously, it was a terminal designed by males who had women type their stuff. ;-)    /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.a   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 02 08:35:06 GMTl From: jmfbahciv@aol.coml: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1eifj$4v7$2@bob.news.rcn.net>d  , In article <TWMPgmfgWVAo@malvm6.mala.bc.ca>,5    nothome@spammers.are.scum (Malcolm Dunnett) wrote:c6 >In article <VA.00000510.002a4394@bluewin.delete.ch>, 5 >   Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> writes:e >  >>  D >> RT-11 queried each wildcarded filename by default, RSTS needed a 	 qualifiera >> (/Q ?) to do that. Whoops...t >> nE >   RSTS also assumed * meant *.*, which was a real pain if you meanta, >to delete *.TMP and instead typed *,TMP :-( >l/ >  ps. I only did that once, but it was enough.  > > Pooh.  That should have been flagged as a command error.  IMO, of course :-).   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 07:11:39 -0500n' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net>(: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC* Message-ID: <3C3AE1FB.A24455BC@Empire.Net>   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  8 Heh.  I actually had it right when I first typed it in; 4 then I thought for a second and changed it.  Then I 3 changed it back; then I thought again for a second h5 and changed it.  There was a terminal that was named n4 off-by-one.  It had an awful keyboard for those who + touch-typed but it did do upper/lower case.    John Sauter responded:  2 The ASR35 and KSR35 were upper case only.  Perhaps2 you meant the KSR37?  It was upper and lower case,$ and had keys with a very long press.%     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)a   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 02 11:15:05 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.com : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1errh$t4l$1@bob.news.rcn.net>f  * In article <3C3AE1FB.A24455BC@Empire.Net>,+    John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote:' >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:i >T9 >Heh.  I actually had it right when I first typed it in;  5 >then I thought for a second and changed it.  Then I n4 >changed it back; then I thought again for a second 6 >and changed it.  There was a terminal that was named 5 >off-by-one.  It had an awful keyboard for those who a, >touch-typed but it did do upper/lower case. >r >John Sauter responded:l >-3 >The ASR35 and KSR35 were upper case only.  PerhapsH3 >you meant the KSR37?  It was upper and lower case, % >and had keys with a very long press.e  : Oh, brother!!!!!  My off-by-one bug had an off-by-one bug.; Yes.  I was talking about the 37.  It was an awful machine.m9 I think I used it exactly once and only because all otherG5 terminals were in use and I had to get that job done.    /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 13:23:19 +0000l% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>c: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <pisl3uskr35f10oj5bt2885n1lkprpmnoj@4ax.com>  8 On Tue, 08 Jan 02 08:38:54 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:    = >Oh, no.  Not those.  They sucked.  Not only was the keyboard^> >bad and the print awful but you could never see what you just; >typed.  Obviously, it was a terminal designed by males who`  E I remember now. You had to stop typing for a few seconds and then the@* printhead moved out of the way  Annoying.     >had women type their stuff. ;-) >  >/BAH  >V( >Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:12:03 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)2: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <uRQUc8GMYybi@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  V In article <a9m_7.764$Kf.13708@ord-read.news.verio.net>, robert@bonomi.invalid writes: >  > Consider the two statements: >  >           copy *.x *.y >           copy *.c *.x > F > does "*.x" mean the _same_thing_ in both situations?  i.e., does it , > ALWAYS expand to the *same* list of names?  G    "mean the same thing" is not equivalent to "the same list of names".iE    You're choosing a meaning to ake your point valid, but that is notr?    the documented meaning.  I'm choosing a meaning close to thei?    documented meaning which makes my point valid.  How long are-    you willing to keep this up?   E    *.x means one thing to the average UNIX shell and another thing to "    DCL.  That should be suprizing?    tK > does the language allow two specifications on a "file delete" opertation?iF > i.e., can you "delete  foo  bar"?  if so, consider the following two
 > statements:g >  > 	copy *.c *.x" >         delete *.c *.x > F > does "*.x" mean the _same_thing_ in both situations?  i.e., does it , > ALWAYS expand to the *same* list of names?  B    No, which is why the second statement is illegal syntax.  AgainG    "mean the same thing" is not equivalent to "the same list of names".n   > K > If the answers are 'yes', then the semantics of "wildcard expansion" are hK > consistent.  Otherwise, the semantics *are* "context dependant", and you cG > have *NO*IDEA* what the behavior will be in an _unfamiliar_ context. i  H    The meaning is not inconsistent.  Its different from what you want to=    force it to be.  And it always acts exactly the same, when     interpreted as documented.v    l   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:14:38 -0600t- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <ZIQQlmmM2kka@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <a1crpj$2l5t$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  J > |>    Now you're all reminding me of the time one of our C++ programmers: > |>    created a file called *.C and wanted to delete it. > 
 > Trivial.  D    To you and me, of course.  But he was forced into C++/UNIX from aF    VMS/Fortran background.  He was not used to being able to make this    mistake.p  * > Just out of curiosity, what did you do??  H    First I showed him how to play it safe by making a tar file of all he    had.M  +    The I showed him how to fix his problem:   
    rm \*.C  G    But I think we can leave further UNIX shell techniques out of c.o.v.h   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:16:27 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)h: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <vvBMNxX5FAgV@eisner.encompasserve.org>   j In article <3C39F2ED.DD935983@bartek.dontspamme.net>, Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net> writes:  I > The following works w/Solaris but should work on any system with bournegI > shell. Note the double quotes and the use of $NF w/awk to pick off the  F > LAST field to get the extension - this allows dots in the file name G > too (YMMV - unspecified behavior if an extension is not on the source- > file).  C    OK, so we're agreed one has to put the fix in the shell function:@    and it can't be done by wuoting the file name to the original    function?  C    OBTW, thanks for the fix, now I'll go update my shell functions.>   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:17:50 -06007- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)b: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <wtke8yWsCjH4@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  \ In article <a1crkn$45p$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:5 > In article <dye7SH1FJ3w3@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0 > Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:G >>   Using my script, all the following fail to pass properly to the cpf
 >>   command:w > G > You're mistaking the finger for the moon. Have a look at the modifiedd > script I just posted.n  @    No, I was making a point about the limitations of quoting and    escaping.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:28:29 -0600i- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <zugWu9WHVJYH@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  \ In article <3C3A1334.CD06375B@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote:H >>    Now you're all reminding me of the time one of our C++ programmers8 >>    created a file called *.C and wanted to delete it. > O > wouldn't "$define badfile "*.C"  followed by delete badfile.;  do the trick ?l  <    You have a define command in your UNIX?  What does it do?  ?    VMS never let us do silly things like make a *.C, even ODS-5 >    won't.  I'm still hoping COE won't, but I recall POSIX did.  <    I'm also impressed by the number of responders who recast6    *.C which I specifically said was a C++ file to *.c   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:32:19 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <PYhepFBloGIj@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <A8x_7.783$Kf.14368@ord-read.news.verio.net>, robert@bonomi.invalid writes:  I > Does *not* mean the option, _itself_ is a bad thing -- the crime is the. > aliasing _to_the_same_name_o  C    Yep.  Which is one of the few times I borrow commands from other 8    OS.  So on UNIX I have dir='ls -FC' and on VMS I have>    more="type/page".  Then I can ls or type all I want without     having to overcome the alias.  J    Of course I have got into the habit of /bin/rm or deletee when helping !    users who don't see the light.m   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:22:09 -0600n- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)@: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <CZa6XHFJH7Pk@eisner.encompasserve.org>@  a In article <u3ju298rj3ctd4@corp.supernews.com>, Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> writes:1? > In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:d? > :> The trailing ' for symbol evaluation is not necessary when># > :> whitespace follows the symbol.n > :> ,5 > :> The evaluation of symbols in comments means thato > :> $! 'f$verify(1)'  > :> will turn verify on.e > :>  - > :> Documented or not, this is inconsistent.e > J > :    This is a bug that never needed fixing.  Don't give us an inch intoH > :    which we open miles of OS bugs, you're favorite OS might not look > :    so good.r > B > Maybe I wasn't clear; my favorite o/s is VMS.  That doesn't meanF > that I can't admit that Unix/ksh do some things better than VMS/DCL.  C    I retract my statement.  Brain took a break.  This is not a bug.     If in DCL the meaning of:         aa       'a       &a	       'a'>
       ''a'  F    are all different and documented.  Not inconsistent, but different.H    Sometimes the end result is the same.  There are, however, known bugs    with          "string" h       "string   7    at the end of line which never really needed fixing.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:33:06 GMTp2 From: Arthur Krewat <krewat@bartek.dontspamme.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C3B1E28.C8265BB5@bartek.dontspamme.net>h   Alan Greig wrote:c > : > On Tue, 08 Jan 02 08:38:54 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > ? > >Oh, no.  Not those.  They sucked.  Not only was the keyboardl@ > >bad and the print awful but you could never see what you just= > >typed.  Obviously, it was a terminal designed by males whoa > G > I remember now. You had to stop typing for a few seconds and then thei+ > printhead moved out of the way  Annoying.h  E You could always hit the "view" key to force the printhead out of thetF way before the timeout. At least I THINK the LA36 had a view key - the LA120 sure did.   A I grew up on LA36/LA120's, never touched an ASR - to me they weres5 perfect for the job, but I was only 13 at the time :)(   aak    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 10:14:39 -0700s From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC& Message-ID: <3C3B28FF.6060505@srv.net>   Arthur Krewat wrote:   > Alan Greig wrote:l > : >>On Tue, 08 Jan 02 08:38:54 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>? >>>Oh, no.  Not those.  They sucked.  Not only was the keyboardr@ >>>bad and the print awful but you could never see what you just= >>>typed.  Obviously, it was a terminal designed by males whot >>>oG >>I remember now. You had to stop typing for a few seconds and then the?+ >>printhead moved out of the way  Annoying.  >> > G > You could always hit the "view" key to force the printhead out of thetH > way before the timeout. At least I THINK the LA36 had a view key - the > LA120 sure did./    C I believe that the LA36 would shift to the right after a very shorts= period of time. I don't think there was any "view" key on it.l  ? The LA120 did have a "view" key (left of the left shift key and B under the ctrl key, according to the manual I have). You could setC the terminal to enable/disable an automatic view (SETUP-Z for thosei who need details).    C > I grew up on LA36/LA120's, never touched an ASR - to me they werei7 > perfect for the job, but I was only 13 at the time :)    ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 17:18:44 GMT-1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)2: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1f9lk$q4v$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>t  * In article <3C3A47F6.4D37E7D4@Empire.Net>,*  John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> writes:. |> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote (highly excerpted): |> :! |> When I typed on an ASR36, ....i |> ' |> John Sauter teased: |> d> |> What's an ASR36?  Maybe you mean an ASR35, the "battleship"< |> teletype?  You couldn't have meant the LA36, its keys all |> sounded alike.s  B As long as we're getting nostalgic here, my first hardcopy printer  at home was a Lorenz LO-15.  :-)   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:46:52 -0000/ From: "Adam Price" <adam+usenet@pappnase.co.uk>s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECC Message-ID: <dgG_7.12427$6q2.2826180@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>e  h "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:uRQUc8GMYybi@eisner.encompasserve.org...X > In article <a9m_7.764$Kf.13708@ord-read.news.verio.net>, robert@bonomi.invalid writes: > > copy *.c *.x > >         delete *.c *.x > >mG > > does "*.x" mean the _same_thing_ in both situations?  i.e., does itk. > > ALWAYS expand to the *same* list of names? > D >    No, which is why the second statement is illegal syntax.  AgainI >    "mean the same thing" is not equivalent to "the same list of names".c  F Is that true? If so how do you delete all files called something.x and5 all files called something.c at the same time on VMS?e   Adam   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 18:55:29 +0100'9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C3B3291.150B997F@aaa.com>a   delete *.c.*,*.x.*  	 Jan-Erik.@   Adam Price wrote:: > H > Is that true? If so how do you delete all files called something.x and7 > all files called something.c at the same time on VMS?t >  > Adam   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 12:54:31 -0600y- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler).: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <FofZFeZtO5sD@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  u In article <dgG_7.12427$6q2.2826180@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>, "Adam Price" <adam+usenet@pappnase.co.uk> writes:k > H > Is that true? If so how do you delete all files called something.x and7 > all files called something.c at the same time on VMS?   !    By using a proper list syntax:p  %    delete something.x;*,something.c;*h  H    You gotta remember, DCL is NOT expanding wildcards here like a shell.D    The program is using standard library calls to loop over the wildH    card, and in the case of output file name wildcarding, it's using the    related name concept.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:34:02 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> > Subject: Re: how to turn off display locking due to inactivity2 Message-ID: <AfF_7.401$5Y4.11094@news.cpqcorp.net>   Tom Linden wrote in message ...d >with CDE on 7.3.  Anybody?m    L This was asked and answered.  Go into the style manager, click on the screen2 icon, and click on the OFF button for screen lock.  6 Exit the session to make sure to save the new setting.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 07:02:30 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>F Subject: Re: Intel working on 32bit/64bit chip in case Itanium falters@ Message-ID: <aQw_7.20382$Oc.1824309@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagea7 news:d7791aa1.0201071720.36614928@posting.google.com...c+ > david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote in messagef' news:<a1cqks$ms5$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>...-I > > There is an interesting article in this weeks IT WEEK in the UK (Pageu 19 -I > > Desktops await 64bit apps). Unfortunately I can't find the article ons theD > > Itweek website at present. > >mJ > > The article is about the future of 64bit desktop systems and contrasts the L > > gradualist AMD hammer approach against Intel's Itanium approach. However. > > there is one very interesting paragraph :- > >eL > > "According to reports, Intel itself is also preparing a 32bit/64bit chipH > > alongside the Itanium architecture,although it refused to comment on thisL > > speculation. It is said that Intel's 32bit chip team is looking at a newJ > > generation of processors with 64bit extensions, to serve as a fallback if4 > > McKinley fails to generate sufficient interest." > >- > >a > > David Webb > > VMS and Unix team leader > > CCSS > / > must be Alpha ... that is why they bought it!n  C Nope.  The project (in Oregon) has been rumored to exist for years.C   - bill   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:57:43 +0000 (UTC)1 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@notsohotmail.com>e4 Subject: Re: LIB$INITIALIZE image_info record layout/ Message-ID: <a1etsm$ch1$1@paris.btinternet.com>n   Hi,g  I I had looked in starlet and lib but couldn't find it (Admittedly on a VAX % 6.2 system. I'll try a later version)d  I In starlet contenders were $inirtndef and $initdef and lib had $ldrimgdeft, and initialization_routine but not much joy.  , Anyone out there know the name of the macro?   Thanks for the reply.    Regards Richard Maherh  E PS. No C.h header files please. Not that I'm not bigoted (I am) but I- honestly can't read that filth.u  8 Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:bmGypC5vqgZf@eisner.encompasserve.org... A > In article <a1ck8n$7n0$1@helle.btinternet.com>, "Richard Maher"h# <maher_rj@notsohotmail.com> writes:- > > Hi,- > >-J > > Does anyone have a copy of the record layout for "image_info" as it is. > > passed to my image initialization routine? > J >    It's in starlet.mlb, but I don't recall seeing it documented anywhere: >    outside the fiche.  Not in the internals manual IIRC. >:   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 07:07:53 -0800 - From: adrianxwdeletethis@hotmail.com (Adrian)e) Subject: Multithreading within a process.a; Message-ID: <8b9b6926.0201080707.1bbbb3@posting.google.com>o   Hi,y  C I am returning to VMS after a long absence programming NT4 systems.nE Having searched google and browsed numerous FAQ's, I have yet to find B any keywords to search for, (or links), which will answer a ratherA general question. (I can't even look at the system manuals as thes@ system hasn't been delivered yet!). Can I safely assume that theE current version of VMS supports multi threading within a process, (asr with NT/2000 etc.)?.  B Any useful links in this arena would be appreciated, however, I am5 quite capable of searching, given the right keywords!y   Med venlig hilsen,	 Adrian...x   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 16:22:20 +0100< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de>- Subject: Re: Multithreading within a process.i4 Message-ID: <a1f2rh$q9q6r$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>   Adrian wrote...  > Can I safely assume that theG > current version of VMS supports multi threading within a process, (asc > with NT/2000 etc.)?   B You probably want to read the "Guide to the POSIX Threads Library"> at http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73final/6493/6101PRO.HTML# (also available in .../72final/...)s   cu,n   Martin --  J One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.degJ One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 16:23:01 +0100$ From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch>- Subject: Re: Multithreading within a process.i% Message-ID: <3c3b0ed6$1@news.post.ch>a   Yes.  @ "Adrian" <adrianxwdeletethis@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag5 news:8b9b6926.0201080707.1bbbb3@posting.google.com...y > Hi,  >eE > I am returning to VMS after a long absence programming NT4 systems. G > Having searched google and browsed numerous FAQ's, I have yet to find D > any keywords to search for, (or links), which will answer a ratherC > general question. (I can't even look at the system manuals as theeB > system hasn't been delivered yet!). Can I safely assume that theG > current version of VMS supports multi threading within a process, (ass > with NT/2000 etc.)?i >rD > Any useful links in this arena would be appreciated, however, I am7 > quite capable of searching, given the right keywords!> >  > Med venlig hilsen, > Adrian...t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:34:06 +0100d9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>s- Subject: Re: Multithreading within a process.V' Message-ID: <3C3B116E.529BA64A@aaa.com>o  ) - Open http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000u - Search for "Threads"< - For easy-to-read-or-print (IMHO), download the PDF manual.   Jan-Erik Sderholm  
 Adrian wrote:  >  > Hi,s > E > I am returning to VMS after a long absence programming NT4 systems.eG > Having searched google and browsed numerous FAQ's, I have yet to find-D > any keywords to search for, (or links), which will answer a ratherC > general question. (I can't even look at the system manuals as the B > system hasn't been delivered yet!). Can I safely assume that theG > current version of VMS supports multi threading within a process, (ase > with NT/2000 etc.)?e > D > Any useful links in this arena would be appreciated, however, I am7 > quite capable of searching, given the right keywords!s >  > Med venlig hilsen, > Adrian...T   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 11:00:59 -0600o- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i- Subject: Re: Multithreading within a process.r3 Message-ID: <tebJcO6Srvwf@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  k In article <8b9b6926.0201080707.1bbbb3@posting.google.com>, adrianxwdeletethis@hotmail.com (Adrian) writes:,  E > I am returning to VMS after a long absence programming NT4 systems.-G > Having searched google and browsed numerous FAQ's, I have yet to findbD > any keywords to search for, (or links), which will answer a ratherC > general question. (I can't even look at the system manuals as the<B > system hasn't been delivered yet!). Can I safely assume that theG > current version of VMS supports multi threading within a process, (aso > with NT/2000 etc.)?m  D For a single processor system, this capability was introduced on VAXD with VMS V4.2 support for Ada.  The Alpha systems support DECthreadsJ which is used directly by C programmers and indirectly by Ada programmers./ On VAX, DECthreads supports only C programmers.   A In order to have DECthreads make use of multiple CPUs at the sameeH time within a single process, you must be on Alpha using V7.0 or higher.  E In order to have DECthreads juggle security contexts correctly withinD; a single process you must be on Alpha using V7.2 or higher.A  B It is technically possible to call DECthreads from languages otherA than C or Ada, but the documentation is not written that way.  OntC the other hand, C is the only languages with significant conceptualn6 difficulties in this area, due to the "errno" concept.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 17:13:22 GMTi$ From: Nick@Swiftbase.net (Nick Ross)E Subject: Need example code for FTPeeing from own image - anyone help? 6 Message-ID: <3c3b272b.229097344@news.cyberphile.co.uk>   Thanks,   C I need an example from any compiler of setting up an FTP connectioniA from within an image. I don't want to spawn or creprc just FTP my-2 newly created file off node without that overhead.  	 Nick Rosso   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 11:05:14 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>rI Subject: Re: Need example code for FTPeeing from own image - anyone help?n% Message-ID: <3C3B34DA.50204@mmaz.com>    Nick Ross wrote:   >Thanks, >_D >I need an example from any compiler of setting up an FTP connectionB >from within an image. I don't want to spawn or creprc just FTP my3 >newly created file off node without that overhead.  >aF You didn't mention which IP stack you are running, but in the case of H TCPware, the API interface is well documented starting around chapter 7  of the Programmer's Guide...   Barrye   -- d  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028@   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 11:45:17 +0200C& From: Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@compaq.com>+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????o* Message-ID: <3C3ABFAD.5E96DF5C@compaq.com>  / Have you checked the size of the journal file ?nI Large journal files might cause this behavior. Please try the following :n   $MC JBC$COMMAND> JBC$COMMAND> DIAG 7h JBC$COMMAND> EXIT    Guye   Joel Loveless wrote:  C > Do you have some sort of disk defrag utility running. We had thisnG > problem when the DEC defrager was working on the queue manager masteri > file.g >a8 > On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:52:18 -0800 (PST), Fabio Cardoso# > <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote:r >a2 > >I noticed a strange problem with my queues last, > >friday. It happened a few weeks ago, too. > >o > >When I tried to display > >t > >$ SHOW QUE any-queueg > >t3 > >The command didnt show anything.  It freezed.=20 5 > >I tried a lot of queues but I had allways the samea > >problem.  > >a6 > >After a period (about 5-10 minutes since I noticed) > >, the displays returned ok. > >o
 > >I tried > >f > >$ SHOW ENTRYm > >e  > >and had the same symptoms.=20 > >w > >Do you know anything ?  > >  > >r
 > >Regards > >r > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DO > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=  > >=3D > >F=E1bio dos Santos Cardosor > >OpenVMS System Managera > >Rio de Janeiro - Brazil > >fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br O > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=  > >=3D > >o5 > >__________________________________________________o > >Do You Yahoo!? ) > >Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!y$ > >http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:37:14 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????s? Message-ID: <20020108113714.7253.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>o   Mezeil  " I will check next time it happens.$ My disk is about 50% (2 GB)  of use.3 I will do the ANALYZE when the processing in servere become more light.   Regards    FC=20A    2 --- JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote: > Fabio Cardoso wrote: > > $ SHOW QUE any-queue > >=201 > > The command didnt show anything.  It freezed. . > > After a period (about 5-10 minutes since I
 > noticed) > > , the displays returned ok.h >=20 >=205 > Was someone running ANALYZE/DISK/REPAIR of the diskh > where the queue managerG > has its database ? >=201 > Can you explicitely state that disk accesses to> > other files on the same disk) > drive were succesful during that time ?b     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DlL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Di F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazils fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/v   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:34:26 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????l? Message-ID: <20020108113426.5394.qmail@web20206.mail.yahoo.com>    Joel  . My DEFRAG software runs from 02:00 - 07:00 AM. The problem was about 03:00 PM.    Regardst   FC=20 / --- Joel Loveless <joell@mindspring.com> wrote:S. > Do you have some sort of disk defrag utility > running. We had this2 > problem when the DEC defrager was working on the > queue manager master > file.l >=200 > On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 07:52:18 -0800 (PST), Fabio	 > Cardosov# > <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote:s >=202 > >I noticed a strange problem with my queues last, > >friday. It happened a few weeks ago, too. > >r > >When I tried to display > >v > >$ SHOW QUE any-queuec > >d5 > >The command didnt show anything.  It freezed.=3D20J5 > >I tried a lot of queues but I had allways the sameu > >problem.5 > > 6 > >After a period (about 5-10 minutes since I noticed) > >, the displays returned ok. > >s
 > >I tried > >' > >$ SHOW ENTRYg > >r" > >and had the same symptoms.=3D20 > >  > >Do you know anything ?l > >- > >i
 > >Regards > >  > >=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D >sL >=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3=6 D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > >=3D3D > >F=3DE1bio dos Santos Cardosoe > >OpenVMS System Manager- > >Rio de Janeiro - Brazil > >fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brr > L >=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3=6 D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D > >=3D3D > >n5 > >__________________________________________________a > >Do You Yahoo!?n) > >Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!e$ > >http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ >=20     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DnL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dt  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:22:46 -0500d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.2 - Slow Queman ????k, Message-ID: <3C3AF28E.251B8414@videotron.ca>   Fabio Cardoso wrote:5 > I will do the ANALYZE when the processing in server9 > become more light.  K No, waht I meant: WHILE  ANA/DISK/REPAIR is huffing and puffing, disk IO onfN that drive is effectively halted. So that would explain why your command would have taken so long.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 12:49:42 +00002% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>s= Subject: Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)h8 Message-ID: <p5ql3uoveo7v5hk2rbu6so86rgr21q3ibt@4ax.com>  E On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:38:01 GMT, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoffn Hoffman) wrote:a  V >In article <3C39F410.C7D21DE6@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes: >l> >  re: OpenVMS on DIGITAL Personal Workstation (PWS) -a series >hK >  As I might have commented once or twice before, OpenVMS is not reliable hI >  on and is not supported on the DIGITAL Personal Workstation -a series aL >  boxes.  Please use these for Microsoft Windows NT (as they were intended)$ >  or maybe for Linux.  Not OpenVMS.  E The current official advice yes but those of us with Alpha/NT systemsp? will recall a letter from Compaq offering us free Tru64 and VMS3C licenses in exchange for the terminated NT offering together with auD promise that VMS would be modified to support these boxes in future.( Something which only partially happened.      -- Alan   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:41:41 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e= Subject: Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)t2 Message-ID: <LmF_7.402$5Y4.11292@news.cpqcorp.net>  ! Hoff Hoffman wrote in message ...e >:>>> b dqa0 >:../..OpenVMS blablabla V7.2  >: >:*** BUGCHECK ***7 >:a device in the boot line or in the BOOT_DEV (???)...  >e >:CONFIG DEVICE NOT FOUNDD0 >:ignoring the device and not loading the driver >..         You might add this to the FAQ...  G Any time that you see this message it means that the OpenVMS disk being L booted does not have runtime support for a device in the boot or dump device0 environment variables, or the boot command line.  G The actions are:  Obtain a release with the required support, or a bootnD floppy kit which adds the support.  Or boot from a different device.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 18:28:37 GMTe2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)= Subject: Re: OpenVMS on PWS-a (was: Re: Alpha 21164 and 7.3?)o2 Message-ID: <pTG_7.410$5Y4.11357@news.cpqcorp.net>  j In article <LmF_7.402$5Y4.11292@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: ..! :You might add this to the FAQ...      OK....  ' :Any time that you see this message ...      I'll add:w  A   INIT_IO_DB-f-CFG_DEV_NOT_FOUND, A device on the boot line or ina1   BOOT_DEV, cannot be found in the config tables.n  B     -Console pathname IDE 0 207 0 0 0 0 0 , ID = 00000000.534544490     -Ignoring the device, and not loading driver    M :                                    ... it means that the OpenVMS disk beingsM :booted does not have runtime support for a device in the boot or dump device31 :environment variables, or the boot command line.h   :lH :The actions are:  Obtain a release with the required support, or a bootE :floppy kit which adds the support.  Or boot from a different device.      I'll also add:  E     %SYSBOOT-I-FILENOTLOC, Unable to locate SYS$CPU_ROUTINES_ppmm.EXE @     %SYSBOOT-E-LDFAIL, failed to load execlet, status = 00000910  H   Which is another common "unsupported platform" error message.  In the K   above SYS$CPU_ROUTINES filename, ppmm is the hexadecimal Alpha CPU code, hI   with pp as the platform code and mm as the model code.  Platform codes  G   that can be interpreted as negative values (%x80 and up) are reservedgF   for Microsoft Windows NT (only) systems, and platforms %x01 through K   %x7F can usually support multiple operating systems including Windows NT.s    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 14:10:34 GMTe  From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@home.com>Y Subject: Re: Please - let's not start *THIS* again! (was Re: Why VMS is better than  Unixg8 Message-ID: <2evl3uc2069v6mkgkc0n6ro2j52uf5r1o2@4ax.com>  5 On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 01:09:21 GMT, "David J. Dachtera"d <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   >Bob Ceculski wrote: >>  F >> this was in another post ... it's not the only reason, but it's one >> of the main ones! >yG >Believe it or else, there *ARE* applications where UNIX really is mores >appropriate than VMS. >oG >...and I'm about the staunchest VMS bigot here - next to you, that is.c  ' We are not worthy!  We are not worthy!!d    1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaqi- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)l   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:14:16 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk Subject: Re: RMS index files+ Message-ID: <a1euro$ef8$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>n   In article <39f180ba05749fa5bb0e54a4be8ee377.57780@mygate.mailgate.org>, "Matt Shoultz" <matts@huachuca-emh27.army.mil> writes:eM >I would like to be able to read and write to a rms index file, but I have nocL >idea what the internal index structure is.  Doe anyone have any clues aboutD >reverse engineering this process given a rms index file without any# >documentation about its structure.  >a >Thanks, >n >Matt . . .t >   B You mean given an indexed file test.dat work out what keys it has,D where each key starts, how long the key is, what type of key it is ?   ie     Alpha2:anal/rms/fdl test.dat   Alpha2:typ/pag test.fdls    A IDENT   " 8-JAN-2002 14:01:33   OpenVMS ANALYZE/RMS_FILE Utility"-   SYSTEM'         SOURCE                  OpenVMSm   FILE"         ALLOCATION              11"         BEST_TRY_CONTIGUOUS     no!         BUCKET_SIZE             2.!         CLUSTER_SIZE            1e"         CONTIGUOUS              no!         EXTENSION               01"         FILE_MONITORING         no!         GLOBAL_BUFFER_COUNT     0 D         NAME                    "USER52:[DAVID20.WWW-CGI]test.dat;1"'         ORGANIZATION            indexedn.         OWNER                   [CSYS,DAVID20]K         PROTECTION              (system:RWED, owner:RWED, group:, world:RE)m   RECORD#         BLOCK_SPAN              yesd/         CARRIAGE_CONTROL        carriage_returne(         FORMAT                  variable"         SIZE                    10   AREA 0"         ALLOCATION              11!         BUCKET_SIZE             2 !         EXTENSION               0    KEY 0 "         CHANGES                 no"         DATA_KEY_COMPRESSION    no"         DATA_RECORD_COMPRESSION no!         DATA_AREA               0=#         DATA_FILL               100c"         DUPLICATES              no!         INDEX_AREA              01"         INDEX_COMPRESSION       no#         INDEX_FILL              100e!         LEVEL1_INDEX_AREA       0e"         NAME                    """         NULL_KEY                no!         PROLOG                  3m!         SEG0_LENGTH             3n!         SEG0_POSITION           0i&         TYPE                    string   KEY 1h"         CHANGES                 no"         DATA_KEY_COMPRESSION    no!         DATA_AREA               0 #         DATA_FILL               100a#         DUPLICATES              yesv!         INDEX_AREA              0t"         INDEX_COMPRESSION       no#         INDEX_FILL              100 !         LEVEL1_INDEX_AREA       0 "         NAME                    """         NULL_KEY                no!         SEG0_LENGTH             2 !         SEG0_POSITION           3h!         SEG1_LENGTH             3-!         SEG1_POSITION           00&         TYPE                    string   ANALYSIS_OF_AREA 0   .  .j .:   In this case :-    Variable length file g   Two indexes  (Key 0 and Key 1)   Primary Index Key 0c   Type string  Starts at position 0 in record > Length 3 No duplicates allowed(     Secondary Index Key 1r    9 Type string  (segmented index consisting of two segments)   ) Segment 0 starts at position 3 in record   Segment 0 Length 2) Segment 1 starts at position 0 in record i Segment 1 Length 3. Key 1  = segment 0 concatenated with segment 1 duplicates allowed    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:41:36 -0600n- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: RMS index filei3 Message-ID: <bMuY$18dGHAO@eisner.encompasserve.org>p   In article <39f180ba05749fa5bb0e54a4be8ee377.57780@mygate.mailgate.org>, "Matt Shoultz" <matts@huachuca-emh27.army.mil> writes:VN > I would like to be able to read and write to a rms index file, but I have noM > idea what the internal index structure is.  Doe anyone have any clues aboutnE > reverse engineering this process given a rms index file without anyr$ > documentation about its structure.  E    You call the RMS routines, or you use a language which will accesslD    them for you (Fortran comes to mind, I still don't know why the CC    folks refused to add it).  You don't want to know the internals.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 19:16:22 +0930,/ From: Mark Daniel <mark.daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au>-D Subject: Slightly On-Topic (at least as c.o.v. increasingly appears)/ Message-ID: <3C3ABFEE.6F5D15D0@wasd.vsm.com.au>f  C I was standing under the shower a couple of mornings ago, doing the7C usual cusp-of-the-year, belly-button gazing (where to invest skillsc@ development, how to avoid (IT) old-timers disease (I'm 47), whatG interesting and innovative technology will buoy me closer to retirementiF with a minimum of thrashing about, etc., etc.) when I had one of thoseB transcendental insights into the nature of reality.  Ken Olsen was@ spot-on the money two decades ago ... "one operating system, oneA architecture".  The proof?  Bill Gates.  As with many prophets of F course, he was before his time and without honour in his own country. F Had he been born a mere twenty years later the (seeming) center of theF IT Universe may well be Maynard rather than Seattle.  I felt strangelyG at ease after this Zen-like experience, feeling that, well, even if the G evanescence fluxes the underlying reality is always the same.  Then then hot water began to wane.                                              # (it is the silly season, after-all)c   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 03:50:21 -05004- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> H Subject: Re: Slightly On-Topic (at least as c.o.v. increasingly appears), Message-ID: <3C3AB2C3.551EDC07@videotron.ca>   Mark Daniel wrote:D > transcendental insights into the nature of reality.  Ken Olsen wasB > spot-on the money two decades ago ... "one operating system, one > architecture".  7 > IT Universe may well be Maynard rather than Seattle. I  6 And VT220s would rule the world all over the place !!!    L Isn't it funny how ergonomics had rules that CRTs should be amber, but AppleL and then Microsoft ignored that and today, nobody talks about the ergonomics colours for the CRTs.b   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 11:55:09 +0100 (MET)l9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>aD Subject: Slightly On-Topic (at least as c.o.v. increasingly appears); Message-ID: <01KCTSVFBKXY8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>2  E > I was standing under the shower a couple of mornings ago, doing the E > usual cusp-of-the-year, belly-button gazing (where to invest skillsdB > development, how to avoid (IT) old-timers disease (I'm 47), whatI > interesting and innovative technology will buoy me closer to retirement H > with a minimum of thrashing about, etc., etc.) when I had one of those6 > transcendental insights into the nature of reality.  > H > I felt strangely at ease after this Zen-like experience, feeling that,G > well, even if the evanescence fluxes the underlying reality is alwaysD/ > the same.  Then the hot water began to wane.    H In a book by Carl Sagan, he writes that once while taking a shower with I his wife while high, he had some Great Idea which he jotted down in soap .= suds on the wall and got back to when he was more sober.  :-)    ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 04:00:47 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>D Subject: Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products@ Message-ID: <20020108120047.78305.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>  - May be, the MacOS GUI development team shoulde- give a help to OpenVMS engineers to develop ae+ new GUI for OpenVMS. Motif is heavy and notp really functional.=20t   Regards    FC=20r2 --- JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote: > http://www.apple.com/imac/ >=204 > He was on CNN moneyline today talking about the PC > industry and what he iss1 > doing to break out of his solid niche market toN > expand it. He mentioned how 4 > opening their own retain stores has attarcted some > 800,000 visits, a larget3 > percentage of which were not existing MAC owners.i >=204 > And, of course, as usual, he took time to showcase > his new imac. (heck, I4 > though it was just a monitor, but at the above URL > it becomes apparent that its > is in fact the whole unit. >=20 > Apple should buy Compaq. >=202 > (Unfortunatly, Compaq's stock seems to be on the > rebound, even though Compaq31 > management are still busy trying to destroy the_ company.     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D?L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D- F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilm fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D0  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/d   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 12:35:20 GMTh4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>D Subject: Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products. Message-ID: <cIB_7.27888$Sf2.263021@rwcrnsc52>  ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in messageo: news:20020108120047.78305.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com...- May be, the MacOS GUI development team shoulde- give a help to OpenVMS engineers to develop a + new GUI for OpenVMS. Motif is heavy and notc really functional.  K Jump into the WayBack Machine and set the coordinates for 1987. The year ofmG the DEC-Apple Alliance. DEC and Apple almost cut a deal wherein the MaciI would have taken over the desktop (and Apple would have adopted the PRISMRL architecture vice PowerPC) whilst VMS remained as the back-end engine. OlsenJ shot the deal down during a meeting with Sculley wherein Ken demanded thatJ VMS reside on the desktop. And we all know where Desktop VMS went. It was, umm, "tabled."   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 12:37:47 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>D Subject: Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products. Message-ID: <vKB_7.27896$Sf2.262206@rwcrnsc52>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C3A709D.6E82AC34@videotron.ca... > http://www.apple.com/imac/ > L > He was on CNN moneyline today talking about the PC industry and what he isI > doing to break out of his solid niche market to expand it. He mentioned= how=L > opening their own retain stores has attarcted some 800,000 visits, a large3 > percentage of which were not existing MAC owners.m >aK > And, of course, as usual, he took time to showcase his new imac. (heck, IDH > though it was just a monitor, but at the above URL it becomes apparent that ito > is in fact the whole unit. >o > Apple should buy Compaq.  7 I thought Ronco would be a good takeover candidate. ;-}  >,G > (Unfortunatly, Compaq's stock seems to be on the rebound, even thougha Compaq: > management are still busy trying to destroy the company.  L UNFORTUNATELY Compaq's stock seems to be on the rebound? What is UNFORTUNATEE about this? Does an increase in stock value adversely affect your CPQH7 portfolio, which presumably is significant in quantity.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:25:47 -0500u- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-D Subject: Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products, Message-ID: <3C3AF343.A0DD4D19@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: N > UNFORTUNATELY Compaq's stock seems to be on the rebound? What is UNFORTUNATEG > about this? Does an increase in stock value adversely affect your CPQw9 > portfolio, which presumably is significant in quantity.r  L Increase in stock translates into added confidence in Compaq's decisions andN management. The only way to throw out capellas and winkler is for the stock to drop big time.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 09:05:57 -0600a- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)oD Subject: Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products3 Message-ID: <ICuTY+fucSQP@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3C3A709D.6E82AC34@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > http://www.apple.com/imac/ >   D    OK, so the first iMac looked like an ADM-3 from the 70's, and theD    new one looks like a desk lamp from the 60's.  If Apple continuesH    the retro thing, will the third iMac someday look like a toaster from    the 50's?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:49:54 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>?D Subject: Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products2 Message-ID: <tuF_7.403$5Y4.11346@news.cpqcorp.net>  H Yeah, lets join forces with the O/S platform that has ~3% of the desktop% market and none of the server market.V  J You are completely insane if you somehow believe that Motif is "heavy" andB "not really functional".  Sheeze.  It is the basis of all UNIX GUIH interfaces, which I think count up to a butt load more desktops than theH MacOS.  But the *day* that you get Linux and the OpenSource community to) adopt the MacOS GUI and API, count me in.b  K Methinks you are confused between CDE V1.0 and where most of the UNIX world  is.r   _Fredo   Fabio Cardoso wrote in message7 <20020108120047.78305.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>...8- May be, the MacOS GUI development team shouldH- give a help to OpenVMS engineers to develop as+ new GUI for OpenVMS. Motif is heavy and notG really functional.   Regardse   FC2 --- JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote: > http://www.apple.com/imac/ >.4 > He was on CNN moneyline today talking about the PC > industry and what he ist1 > doing to break out of his solid niche market to  > expand it. He mentioned howU4 > opening their own retain stores has attarcted some > 800,000 visits, a largea3 > percentage of which were not existing MAC owners.  >=4 > And, of course, as usual, he took time to showcase > his new imac. (heck, I4 > though it was just a monitor, but at the above URL > it becomes apparent that its > is in fact the whole unit. >e > Apple should buy Compaq. >32 > (Unfortunatly, Compaq's stock seems to be on the > rebound, even though Compaqi1 > management are still busy trying to destroy thef company.     =====t ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/T   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:40:45 -0600+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>tD Subject: RE: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" productsL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E0B9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----7 > From: Fabio Cardoso [mailto:fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br]   / > May be, the MacOS GUI development team should>/ > give a help to OpenVMS engineers to develop an- > new GUI for OpenVMS. Motif is heavy and noto > really functional. -  : On the other hand, so is the new MacOS GUI, as I'm told...   Heavier than Motif, in fact.   Regards,   Chrisn  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer- Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");R 'P  s   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 02 09:48:04 GMTg From: jmfbahciv@aol.com9Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demi + Message-ID: <a1emoe$eue$2@bob.news.rcn.net>k  2 In article <slrna3k2jh.j93.liam@nessie.xinqu.net>,0    liam@nessie.xinqu.net (Liam Greenwood) wrote:J >On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:13:34 GMT, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk>  wrote:H >>Errm, what's so /difficult/ about holding the button down, rather thanE >>looking for a second button?  Macs have had context sensitive menus $ >>through this means from the start. >t: >	It is difficult to discover.  If I have multiple buttonsD >then there is a chance they may do something, so I try them.  There@ >is no clue that if I hold a button down for some period of timeC >something will happen.  Having said that however, there is nothing9B >intuitive about any mouse driven interface (as anyone who has hadB >to show someone how to drive a mouse from scratch will know), so @ >context sensitive menus are just another overload of the mouse ? >button to teach the user. (click, double-click, click-select, a@ >drag-select, drag-n-drop, menu-select, and context-menus - all  >on one simple button)  @ [stunned emoticon here]  The reason this is the User Device From9 Hell is due to the fact I didn't have formal training????,   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.t   ------------------------------   Date: 08 Jan 2002 18:23:57 GMT( From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The dem T 9 Message-ID: <3c3b393d$0$79564$3c090ad1@news.plethora.net>   4 In article <3C3A48C8.55A959E3@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>,: Christian Bau  <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:I >There is one situation where "contextual menu by waiting" is beneficial:TF >Use a web browser. Click on a link. Realise just before releasing the> >mouse button that you want to open that link in a new window.  I The solution, on other systems, is to move the mouse before releasing it,  and then right-click.    -s -- sK    Copyright 2001, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net K    $ chmod a+x /bin/laden      Please do not feed or harbor the terrorists. J      C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter.  Boycott Spamazon!N Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:10:11 +0100, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demis07 Message-ID: <20020108081011.34773018.steveo@eircom.net>A    On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:52:21 GMT- liam@nessie.xinqu.net (Liam Greenwood) wrote:   F LG> something will happen.  Having said that however, there is nothingE LG> intuitive about any mouse driven interface (as anyone who has had E LG> to show someone how to drive a mouse from scratch will know), so    < 	My kids caught on to it very quickly, perhaps learning what. a mouse does is easier for a three year old :)   -- NH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 03:06:37 -0500E- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 0 Subject: TCPIP io status blocks on 64 bit alphas, Message-ID: <3C3AA886.BEDD004A@videotron.ca>  W Going through the TCPIP documentation on the $QIO interface, I just realised something:(  N The IO status block is defined as having 32 bit address in the io status block (figure 3-1. page 3-4).p  N Does this automatically become 64 bits on alpha, or does the $QIO interface on9 alpha somehow fit a 64 bit address in a 32 bit longword ?3    . in other words, if I have s structure such as:   struct tcpip_iosb {i 		unsigned short status ;  		unsigned short count ; 		void *buffer_address ; 			} ;  G will this translate into a 2 longword structure on vax and a 3 longword-K structure on alpha with the $QIO writing a 64 bit address into a 64bit longe "buffer_address" ?  N I never really thought about this before since my printed doc is the last greyN wall (5.5-2), but the TCPIP 5.0 book dates from a time when VMS does have fullI 64 bit adressing, and is derived from a tru64 product which became 64 bitoK native before VMS did, so I am somewhat surprised to see reference to 32bitd pointers there.n   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:04:38 +0100< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de>4 Subject: Re: TCPIP io status blocks on 64 bit alphas4 Message-ID: <a1ejob$psb9o$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>   JF Mezei wrote...n> > Going through the TCPIP documentation on the $QIO interface, > I just realised something: >wC > The IO status block is defined as having 32 bit address in the ioa& > status block (figure 3-1. page 3-4). >mC > Does this automatically become 64 bits on alpha, or does the $QIO H > interface on alpha somehow fit a 64 bit address in a 32 bit longword ?    IMHO, this stays at 32 bits, seeK http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73FINAL/6529/6529pro_015.html#h2_iostatusn   cu,    Martin -- tJ One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de J One OS to bring them all      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 07:12:06 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"iB Message-ID: <aZw_7.568024$8q.46394854@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  & "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message' news:zTr_7.3$Qz1.970@news.xtra.co.nz...  >h7 > "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagen( > news:3C369048.4090600@tsoft-inc.com... > >hK > > Intel sells CPUs.  It markets what it sells.  Does GM boast about who's < > > tools they use to build cars?  No, they market the cars. > >  > = > The difference is though that the GM doesn't use some other-? > manufacturer's cars to make their cars. So the analogy breaks<; > down full stop. Just imagine some high-ranking GM (or anyc? > other car manufacturer) officials seen in public driving some. > competitior's car...   Well...e  J There at least used to be some inter-company parts interchange that nobodyL talked about (not even the company whose part was being used).  For example,L my father's Oldsmobile 442 had a Ford transmission in it (from the factory),E because GM didn't make a 3-speed manual that could handle the torque.w   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:54:35 -0600i- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r5 Subject: Re: The Inquirer: more on OpenVMS's "future"-3 Message-ID: <44CCSmDnCpiG@eisner.encompasserve.org>M  K In article <zTr_7.3$Qz1.970@news.xtra.co.nz>, "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> writes:h > 7 > "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messageg( > news:3C369048.4090600@tsoft-inc.com... >>J >> Intel sells CPUs.  It markets what it sells.  Does GM boast about who's; >> tools they use to build cars?  No, they market the cars.t >> > = > The difference is though that the GM doesn't use some otherI? > manufacturer's cars to make their cars. So the analogy breakse; > down full stop. Just imagine some high-ranking GM (or anye? > other car manufacturer) officials seen in public driving someo > competitior's car...  I    Some manufacturers do use others' product.  What kind of trucks do you,H    think VW shipped all those classic Beetles on?  Nothing VW made couldC    do the job.  Intel also hasn't made anything that can run a Fab.r   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:34:37 -0500+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>o  Subject: RE: VMS and the Big DigT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B5A@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Alan,n  C >>> As my local Compaq account manager (name supplied to any Compaqb? personnel on request) tells me he has been given no training orr literature on VMS at all <<<   Well, wrt the literature issue-o  B It sounds like that Sales person is not aware of Compaq's internalH literature system called CMS (collateral mgmt system). It is a web basedG application that allows you to search for whatever you are looking for.e  8 Samples (not all) of what is available can  be found at:0 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/  I As an example of a new testimonial recently added to the OpenVMS list:=20h4 (OpenVMS, Oracle, SAN's, Services and consolidation)A http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/dfocanada/ (html)aG http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/dfocanada/dfocanada.pdfo (pdf)e   JF - Canadian reference..h   :-)    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantt Compaq Canada Corp.e Professional Servicess Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----, From: Alan Greig [mailto:a.greig@virgin.net] Sent: January 7, 2002 11:13 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com   Subject: Re: VMS and the Big Dig    , On Fri, 04 Jan 2002 17:05:46 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:     H >Does anyone really expect the remaining Compaq sales force to even know that >VMS still exists ?.G >The local folks seem to be under the impression that "corporate" wants= them to3B >sell NT and when necessary Unix boxes. They wouldn't mention VMS.  ? As my local Compaq account manager (name supplied to any Compaqm? personnel on request) tells me he has been given no training oraD literature on VMS at all.  He had not even heard of a VMS ambassadorF until I explained it to him. For the record I do not believe the fault lies with him.   -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 05:28:02 -0800w. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)# Subject: Re: VMS and VAX clustering < Message-ID: <343f30ae.0201080528.5da03aa@posting.google.com>   "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com> wrote in message news:<3C3A6B0A.90205@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com>... > David J. Dachtera wrote: >  [snip] -J > > Actually, you've inspired me. I'm going to start planning now to writeK > > "OpenVMS Clusters for Dummies" and see if I can sell it to the folks ate1 > > IDG. (They don't have that one yet, do they?)e > I > I like the idea, but the "for Dummies" series probably wouldn't be thatnH > appealing to your potential audience (which might include me). SomeoneG > who wants to know how clusters work because they are one of the great,J > computing inventions of the last few decades or someone who needs to setC > up an OpenVMS cluster for the first time to get real work done isdJ > unlikely to be interested in the dummies series. It might, though, be anD > appropriate sell for management types who want to know why OpenVMSJ > Clusters can keep the business from falling down when the building fallsD > down, and as an appropriate complement to the NT integration book.   /SERIOUS_MODE=OFFt  = What to do when you've finished "Windows95 for Dummies"? ReadoC "Windows95 for Advanced Dummies"! For clusters, maybe just skip the B "VMSclusters for Dummies" and go straight to the advanced version.   /SERIOUS_MODE=ON   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman  afeldman !~~/\~~! gfigroup.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:44:27 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov># Subject: RE: VMS and VAX clustering - Message-ID: <0033000047105648000002L082*@MHS>   C =0AIt astonishes me to this day that people actually purchase books < that are titled in such a manner as to explicitly state that> the purchaser suffers from a surfeit of intellectual capacity.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETs' Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:29 AM-B To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET# Subject: RE: VMS and VAX clustering-    H "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com> wrote in = message3H news:<3C3A6B0A.90205@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com>... > David J. Dach= tera wrote: >s [snip]H > > Actually, you've inspired me. I'm going to start planning now to wr= ite H > > "OpenVMS Clusters for Dummies" and see if I can sell it to the folk= s at1 > > IDG. (They don't have that one yet, do they?)d > H > I like the idea, but the "for Dummies" series probably wouldn't be th= atH > appealing to your potential audience (which might include me). Someon= e-H > who wants to know how clusters work because they are one of the great=  H > computing inventions of the last few decades or someone who needs to = set C > up an OpenVMS cluster for the first time to get real work done isaH > unlikely to be interested in the dummies series. It might, though, be=  an>D > appropriate sell for management types who want to know why OpenVMSH > Clusters can keep the business from falling down when the building fa= lls D > down, and as an appropriate complement to the NT integration book.   /SERIOUS_MODE=3DOFF   = What to do when you've finished "Windows95 for Dummies"? Read C "Windows95 for Advanced Dummies"! For clusters, maybe just skip theoB "VMSclusters for Dummies" and go straight to the advanced version.   /SERIOUS_MODE=3DON   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmann afeldman !~~/\~~! gfigroup.com=i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:49:23 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>s# Subject: Re: VMS and VAX clusteringa' Message-ID: <3C3B06F3.3A3EB74C@aaa.com>   9 Hm, Mr Celco (who wrote about SQL in the fine paper DBMS) 9 have written a book called "SQL for Smarties". I'd ratherd buy that one then...     WILLIAM WEBB wrote:n > B > It astonishes me to this day that people actually purchase books> > that are titled in such a manner as to explicitly state that@ > the purchaser suffers from a surfeit of intellectual capacity. >  > WWWebb   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:25:40 -07003 From: "David D Miller" <ddmiller@west.raytheon.com> # Subject: RE: VMS and VAX clustering F Message-ID: <OFC077337B.217E03AB-ON07256B3B.005F4C0F@rsc.raytheon.com>   Gang:   K I sent the "OpenVMS Clustering for Dummies" suggestion on to Pam Chester atn6 Digital press for comments.  Here's how she responded:    From Pam Chester, Digital Press.  J The problem with taking this idea to O'Reilly is that they can't afford toH publish for a market of this size--whereas Digital Press is able to workD within this niche. (And IDG is now Wiley, and they aren't publishing Dummies  books any more.)  F Digital Press has just inaugurated a new series, the COMPACT SOLUTIONS books J (pun intended, and it keeps us clear of Legal in Houston), covering issues2 with Compaq-related technologies in 200-300 pages.  I The first book will be out early this spring--Tru64 UNIX-Oracle9i Cluster  Quick Reference.  F Other titles in the pipeline include Getting Started with OpenVMS (forA advanced undergrads, etc) and Getting Started with OpenVMS System= Management.=  J We are also happy to consider other proposals for longer and more detailed books on OpenVMS.   K If you're interested in proposing a book, or just have questions, feedback,- etc, please contact me.,   Pam Chester4 Acquisitions Editori
 Digital Pressc 225 Wildwood Avenueu Woburn, MA  01801b 781-904-2603 pam.chester@bhusa.com      -----Original Message-----   David J. Dachtera wrote:   > Collin wrote:d6 >>OK, perhaps I misjudged how detailed things are. ;-)) >>Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.  >> >eH > Actually, you've inspired me. I'm going to start planning now to writeI > "OpenVMS Clusters for Dummies" and see if I can sell it to the folks atf/ > IDG. (They don't have that one yet, do they?)M    G I like the idea, but the "for Dummies" series probably wouldn't be thatnF appealing to your potential audience (which might include me). SomeoneE who wants to know how clusters work because they are one of the great!H computing inventions of the last few decades or someone who needs to setA up an OpenVMS cluster for the first time to get real work done isuH unlikely to be interested in the dummies series. It might, though, be anB appropriate sell for management types who want to know why OpenVMSH Clusters can keep the business from falling down when the building fallsB down, and as an appropriate complement to the NT integration book.  F I'd rather see something in one of the O'Reilly series whose names are of the form:   "Learning XYZ" "XYZ in a Nutshell"v "XYZ: The Missing Manual"u "XYZ: The Definitive Guide"   D The last two probably are unnecessary because the clustering manualsF aren't missing and the problem with DEC documentation generally is notF its lack of thoroughness but knowing where the heck to start. O'ReillyH also has much better editing and production quality than IDG (or Digital! Press for that matter). My $0.02.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:56:17 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov># Subject: RE: VMS and VAX clustering - Message-ID: <0033000047147966000002L062*@MHS>c   =0AWow.l  - I knew Joe Celko way before I started messingn8 with computers (except for APL on a 360 in high school).  # Didn't realize he was so prominent.    WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETu( Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:51 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET# Subject: RE: VMS and VAX clustering)    9 Hm, Mr Celco (who wrote about SQL in the fine paper DBMS)v9 have written a book called "SQL for Smarties". I'd rather$ buy that one then...     WILLIAM WEBB wrote:A >8B > It astonishes me to this day that people actually purchase books> > that are titled in such a manner as to explicitly state that@ > the purchaser suffers from a surfeit of intellectual capacity. >l	 > WWWebb=e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 13:12:39 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>1 Subject: Re: VMS Marketing For the General Publicr, Message-ID: <bfC_7.6318$762.65417@rwcrnsc54>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3C3A71BD.6C397E6C@fsi.net...n > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:s > > K > > Hmmm... maybe CPQ could do an advertisement where internees at Compaq'so OSI > > Political Correctness Reeducation Facility escape through some broken H > > Windows and resume their trade as VMS Data Wranglers. I can envision said- > > Wranglers herding Penguins and Daemons...R >S > Terry! You're Hired! > ! > - DJE Marketing and Advertisinge  I I tell ya, Dave, a parody like that would be an absolute hoot at the nextMI CETS meeting or at one o' those Platinum Forums. And why not? Heck, Scott B McNealy used to kick off every one of his analyst briefings with aK side-splitting parody that bashed the hell outta one competitor or another. H The best was the Jacques Cousteau take-off wherein a hapless diver had aJ Windoze-based regulator on his Draeger rig. "The last thing he saw was the Blue Screen of Death."  G Nothing like a little levity to attract attention. How many people knewiC about AFLAC Supplemental Insurance until the company rolled out itsB spokesduck??? ;-}T   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:32:19 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>1 Subject: RE: VMS Marketing For the General Public-- Message-ID: <0033000047134126000002L062*@MHS>0   =0AINT. DATA CENTER-  ,     Man standing in front of row of servers.                          MAN;            "My systems have been up for 276 days straight."    INT. OFFICE-  /     People standing in front of midsize system.s                          PEOPLEs4             "Our fileservers are immune to viruses."   INT. SMALL OFFICE SERVER ROOM-  F     Woman sitting in front of table with several desktop-sized systems     with monitors.                          WOMAN;             "My webservers have been up for eighteen monthsu5              and they haven't been hacked even once."t  	 VOICEOVER	  6             "What do these people know that you don't?9             "They're running OpenVMS systems from Compaq.d  ;              OpenVMS.   Stability...Reliability...Security.i  5              If you're tired of frequent downtime ande5              missing data, then it's time you thought (              about closing the windows."  ! CROSSFADE TO COMPAQ OPENVMS LOGO.M     -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETa' Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:22 AMmB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET1 Subject: RE: VMS Marketing For the General Public2     John Smith wrote:mH > Went kind of like this....Head honcho standing on elevated platform t= alkingH > to a large group of what obviously were consultants. There is a spinn= ingdH > brass ring suspended in mid-air centered over a large square carpet, = perhapsfH > 20' square. The challenge...to take hold of the brass ring without st= anding > on the carpet.  H Yep, remembered that one. And I also remember attending a computer show=  ineH Montreal in early 1980s where Digital had a big booth with "healthy" fe= malesiH in *wet* "digital" t-shirst handing out "digital" helium filled balloon= s.H Outside of exhibition hall, there were many "digital" balloons being he= ld bya people, even in the subway.=   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 08:47:05 -0600i- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)nH Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )3 Message-ID: <wQkj8tsJ9l4y@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  \ In article <3C3A146D.9BF412F9@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote:F >>    Back to reality.  A great bit of VMS has since been rewritten inE >>    BLISS or other HLL.  I know of VAX Macro code fomr VMS 2.x thatn >>    became BLISS by VMS 4.0. >  > O > When writing kernel code or deep down stuff for the OS, does using a compilereP > with lots of optimization for the harware ever cause serious problems ?  (I amN > thinking of instruction ordering, and variable "elimination" by keeping them1 > in registers, and possible many other factors).   B    Must be.  Macro-64 is the only assembly language I know of thatE    includes an optimizer, and the only language for VMS from DEC thatt8    I know of that ships with /nooptimize as the default.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:59:28 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>rH Subject: Re: VMS on more common hardware (was Re: VMS as a career move )2 Message-ID: <qDF_7.404$5Y4.11314@news.cpqcorp.net>  = JF Mezei wrote in message <3C3A146D.9BF412F9@videotron.ca>...y >Bob Koehler wrote: F >>    Back to reality.  A great bit of VMS has since been rewritten inE >>    BLISS or other HLL.  I know of VAX Macro code fomr VMS 2.x thath >>    became BLISS by VMS 4.0. >r >uE >When writing kernel code or deep down stuff for the OS, does using aS compilerL >with lots of optimization for the harware ever cause serious problems ?  (I amH >thinking of instruction ordering, and variable "elimination" by keeping them0 >in registers, and possible many other factors).   Yes.  F Even on UNIX this is sometimes an issue.  I've seen cases where only aL specific compiler could be used, or where optimization had to be turned off.  J But generally, the problems tend to get resolved because there are so manyL things depending on correct behavior.  Of course, there is often the problemK of the programmer not understanding what they need to do to get the correcti. behavior from the compiler in the first place.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 02:33:10 -0800t- From: tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell)N, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha= Message-ID: <9f261edc.0201080233.191e4ab2@posting.google.com>-  ~ "Virginia Metze" <metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<BOECKNAHIJPJAMDEEHDNIEMODCAA.metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu>...  J > Facing retirement in a few years, I have de-emphasized my VMS systems inM > favor of moving the web, file, and mail serving to Windows servers.  It has  > gone well.    C So? Pushing a few web/file/mail-serving tasks (at an academic site)a8 over to M$ Windows doesn't really say very much does it?  < How about you tell us how to move a thousand-user database &E transaction-processing system from OpenVMS over to Windows? Or a chipwD fabrication plant, or an engine manufacturing production line, or anF automated stock-picking warehouse system, or a lottery system handling0 millions of entries weekly? Or a stock exchange?  D The reality is that Windows does not scale to such size, and that itB just isn't as robust as OSs such as OpenVMS. Add to that OpenVMS'sA rich set of tools, granular security, *proper* clustering, volume/C shadowing, disaster tolerance. versions, etc. And yeah - what aboutpC DECwindows as a GUI? Surely you don't rate systems based on whether D they have pretty pictures on the screen? Or maybe you do (.edu etc).F Commercial organisations want the job done, and if that means CLI then	 so be it.i   = > I think that probably Linux will simply go the way of othertC > UNIXes and die because there are too many versions around, mostlyVI > unsupported, but it will doubtlessly survive in a segment of the serverz	 > market.v  E You're beginning to sound like a paid ad for M$. Are you not aware of ; distros such as Mandrake, and products such as Star Office?cB Specifically designed for ex-Wintel users, for easy installation &F operation. Beginning to seem like a genuine desktop solution, hence M$ running scared.   B Sorry, but your views appear to spring from one particular sector.@ What pearls of wisdom can you offer to commercial organisations?  4 BTW, your domain intrigued me, so I had a look round@ http://www.uiuc.edu Are you aware that none of the links to your. Materials Research Lab sites are working? (eg:F http://mrlpubs.mrl.uiuc.edu/ ) That's not your Windows webserver beingD reliable is it? Other depts seem fine. Sorry if that's a cheap shot.   ;-)D   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 12:35:14 +0000i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> , Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha8 Message-ID: <enpl3uk9gqip0kukp5nmu08sr0n42dqgsr@4ax.com>  F On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 06:52:57 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:    K >Outhouse Express does not perform transactions with the news server (to beeK >fair, it's quite likely that the news protocols don't allow it to).  So ifbK >it does not receive an ACK for a sent message before something bad happensoJ >(local crash, loss of connection, etc.) it will send it again even if the  >server had in fact received it.  E All it need do is post the second attempt with the same message-id as C the first. That way the NNTP protocol would not propagate duplicatee> messages. Instead Outhouse (and many other readers to be fair)( generate a new ID for each post attempt.   >l >- billg >n >y   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:12:34 +0000e( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha) Message-ID: <3C3B1A72.AA12DFBA@127.0.0.1>    Virginia Metze wrote:5 > D > My opinion:  VMS has somewhat of a future as long as there are VMS ...tM > Don't believe the propaganda by scared Unix professionals:  Windows 2000/XP K > is full-featured, in some cases even better than VMS.  And there are manyf+ > good young Windows 2000/XP professionals.  ...eL > Phase out VMS.  It is wonderful, but actually all of its best features are > in Windows nt/2000/XPcK > and those operating systems additionally are basically graphics interfaces > whereas VMS is > not, really.   Is this a troll?   With respect Virginia, rubbish.   C What you believe is 'better' than VMS has been responsible for hugel@ amount of lost productivity (network downtime, wasted CPU and IO9 bandwidth, patch time, basic nuisance, to mention a few).n   justify that... if you can.b  H Then show me a full featured cluster, while you may be partially correctG believing Wxx[yy] may in some parts be superior to UNIX, if you believes2 the same is true of VMS, then you do not know VMS.  D In that case I wish you the best in your chosen career, and that theA industry disillusionment being seen with XP, and general industryaF analysis in not recommending Wxx[yy] as a strategic platform, does not affect your career.l  G Hasn't anyone ever told you pyramid selling doesn't work? As the vendortF releases more and more software, requiring more and more hardware, andC more and more support staff to fix, in turn requiring more and more E software... When industry realises and the bubble bursts, I will feelr- for the families of the individuals affected.d  H This is one of the reasons the larger companies are finding it difficultE to make profit in personal computers, there just isn't any. Sooner ormF later it will filter down the food chain. It is also indirectly why soE much FUD is flying here, there is no direct issue with VMS, it's justsB getting caught up by the disturbance caused by the collapse of the above.   -- e( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comt   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 10:26:07 -0600f+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)t, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha3 Message-ID: <wfX1vWLe0Dey@eisner.encompasserve.org>N  o In article <XAw_7.391783$C8.28561848@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > G >> >> Could you point us VMS'ers to the Microsoft-equivalent chapter on I >> >> shared- everything clusters and host-based volume shadowing?  These.: >> >> are the features I put at the top of my "best" list. >> >>  >> >7 >> >     They aren't there.  The paradigm is different.d >>
 >> -- snip --o >> >>, >> Yup - and that's precisely my point.  <g> > I > But the question then becomes whether the fact that MS achieves similarc1 > function by a different mechanism is important.a > K > The MS answer to host-based volume shadowing is host-mirrored drives that-N > are taken over by (failed over to - a matter of seconds if a journaling fileJ > system like NTFS is used) a second host if the first fails.  If you wantN > disaster tolerance, you can have it (at least up to 10 km or whatever normalM > FC allows these days) by separating the disks from each other.  And there'siN > no reason you can't run productive work on both servers (e.g., a symmetricalJ > configuration where each normally manages one set of disks and serves as > back-up server for another). > L > The up-side of this approach is that you can have either host *and* either: > disk fail and still operate, unlike the case with VMS.    @ 	I think you have a small number of servers in mind.  If you had@ 	3 or more servers, you could have a host fail or a volume fail.   > The down-side isK > that all access to the disk pair is funneled through a single host (whichoL > isn't so bad if they're really just disks but becomes a problem if they're% > in fact high-performance arrays).  u  A 	Good point... if you are plodding along, no problem!  But if youeE 	are doing exchange/banking/largish ISP transaction loads , you mighto" 	want to have a different backend.    And establishing efficient 'N+1'K > configurations (where N > 1) is more complex than when using truly-sharedaI > devices (though no more complex than when using VMS's host-based volumea
 > shadowing).i >   = 	Alot more complex.  VMS volume shadowing is a piece of cake.oE 	You don't have to manage "hosts" to get the storage right ( N > 1 ).l  B > If you can stomach the base differences between Windows and VMS,I > clusterability is no longer the killer differentiator that it once was.e  7 	Weird thing is searching Google:  nt cluster brings upC$ 	Ginny's NT SuperCluster at the top:  2 http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/General/CC/ntcluster/  % 	They are "working" on a SAN because:,  F http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/General/CC/ntcluster/storage/Storage.html  L The current cluster consists of a set of machines with Myrinet interconnectsN for application level messaging and Fast Ethernet for IP-based communications,E such as file sharing services. This model has several disadvantages:    O Each machine has its own local storage (drive E:), which is inaccessible to theeI others. This represents approximately 400 GB of local storage that is nott shared.   O The single fileserver is a performance bottleneck and single point of failure.    N The Fast Ethernet is a performance bottleneck, both as an interconnect between- the machines and to access the rest of NCSA. e  P There is no shared file name space between the NT cluster and the rest of NCSA.    	Ouch!  ; 	They did an internal storage presentation , November 1998:e  J http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/General/CC/ntcluster/storage/apant/index.html  F 	So maybe everything at that site is stale, or they haven't determinedB 	a SAN solution -yet-?   Maybe the Evil Machine Corporation prices; 	scared them off.  Appears that way, current configuration:y  C http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/General/CC/ntcluster/Config_image.html5  > 	Maybe Ginny will be back in a few years and tell us about the 	wonders of having a SAN. . . .g   				Rob0   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:04:44 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>6, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha2 Message-ID: <lIF_7.406$5Y4.11329@news.cpqcorp.net>  ? Dean Woodward wrote in message <3C3A3249.7AA269DE@rdrop.com>...J >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  >>C >> I know of sites where every night an automated script reboots NTc	 servers -aF >> because it reduces the number of hangs and blue screens that happen during# >> the day when people are working.o >mI >I had a friend who was put in charge of a rather largish e-commerce site H >that ran on a slew of NT4.0/IIS machines.  The reboot schedule for eachH >machine was something like every 90 *minutes*.  He's since moved on, soG >I don't know what the current schedule is, or if they finally took his-I >urging and moved the web services to another platform.  (Not VMS, or I'dy
 >have heard.)e  L Someone once described a bug report their company got.  It seemed that everyH night there was a glitch in Hong Kong with a data feed.  Turned out thatE someone in the US was automatically rebooting their servers when they J believed all the markets were closed and nobody was working...  Gotta love Windows, and 24x7.   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:49:40 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>1 Subject: Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha? @ Message-ID: <20020108114940.22496.qmail@web20208.mail.yahoo.com>  / What I really hope if this merger continues is:e  0 OpenVMS as part of Agilent strategy of business.  ) Should be good  to see Agilent industrial ) automation solutions based in OpenVMS.=20c  4 Of course there are the non-industrial automation=20/ solutions. Should OpenVMS become an independente- software company connected to HP+Agilent ?=20h   Other topic:  Oracle RDB !  % The company didnt renew the corporate 0 support contract for this product because Oracle) wanted exorbitant prices in the contract.a  . I really think Oracle wants to extinguish RDB.- just avoiding people to use it, because of=20p
 its price....n  * So, I believe a new database should become2 the standard for OpenVMS: Cach=E9, Mimer, other...   Regardsn   FC=2035 --- Sue Skonetski <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote:  > Dear Jeffery,M >=20) > Please send me your real email address.3 >=20 > Thank YouL > Sue SkonetskiI" > Compaq OpenVMS Field Deployment.5 >   "webmaster@cyberunlimited.org" <RES0JWU3@gte.net>M > wrote in message5 > news:WU6_7.625$SL.1308873@paloalto-snr2.gtei.net...F4 >   Hello, my name is Jeffery Taff and I work in the5 > Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition Departmentf6 > for a Water Utility.I currently have several VAX and6 > Alpha Servers and Workstations. I want to upgrade my1 > VAX Systems to Alpha. However, some people here 5 > believe that the future of VMS is limited and if wee3 > continue with VMS Systems, we will not be able tod6 > hire VMS Experts to fill our future SCADA positions., > They believe that we should shift to an NT3 > environment so that we can find people to supports6 > our NT Systems in the future. What are your thoughts6 > on this? What is Compaq going to do about VMS in the3 > future? Also, how long is Compaq going to supportt > the Alpha Architecture?=20 >=20 >   Thank you. >=20 >=20     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DCL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Di F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazila fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Do  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/s   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 05:46:41 -0800e( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)1 Subject: Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha? = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201080546.55ae7209@posting.google.com>m  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3C3A1189.A524AC79@videotron.ca>...  > Bob Ceculski wrote: K > > VMS is too heavily used by defense and government to go away ... either > > > Compaq will port it to itanium or it will have to sell it  > K > I disagree. Compaq could stop selling VMS today and stop the port to IA64-U > today and still make its commitments to the military by continuing support for VMS.e > H > > even if it is not ported to itanium, ev7 ensures it will be a viable. > > platform for at least another 10 years ... > O > And by that time, Windows will (should) be stabel enough and mature enough tom9 > take on those applications that used to be VMS' domain.>  O you should have used the word "might" instead of "should" for the windows part!r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 11:55:35 +0000S% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>rY Subject: Re: Why did universities abandon VMS for Unix ? ( was Re: VMS on more  common ha 8 Message-ID: <sfnl3uk0mt1m7m1rtqt3elj8jht089ui1q@4ax.com>  0 On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 03:00:02 GMT, Paul Colquhoun( <postmaster@andor.dropbear.id.au> wrote:   >sH >And there probably arn't any Alpha/NT servers there either. We all know >who won that bet, don't we.  D I believe one Alpha/NT server is still online for the moment but not for much longer. -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 8 Jan 2002 16:26:38 GMTu' From: cassidy@netaxs.com (Kyle Cassidy)  Subject: wtb: cd-rom caddy# Message-ID: <a1f6ju$sns@netaxs.com>o  	 hey kids,dH   i can't find the cd-caddey for my rr-55 (is that what it is? somethingI like that) and i need to install the new version of vms. anybody have one>F for sale? little plastic thing, holds a cd.... you know what i mean...   kyle       -- t2 kyle cassidy, mcse          |  /"\    ASCII RIBBON0 www.netaxs.com/~cassidy     +  \ /      CAMPAIGN5 Dod #760 / kb2rvy           |   X   AGAINST HTML MAILn7                             |  / \    AND POSTINGS         ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 08:25:34 GMTk) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>eY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise    of cv' Message-ID: <3C3AC94A.48138FB9@ev1.net>'   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > ) > In article <3C395777.A4F4FC8C@ev1.net>,i/ >    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:e > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:d > >>, > >> In article <3C3745DE.8FF49129@ev1.net>,2 > >>    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote: > >> >1 > >> >     [snip...]     [snip...]      [snip...]t > >> >F > >> >I know... I just threw that in for the benefit of your nephew... > >> >= > >> ROTFL.  It's really not his fault; it's the fault of all-A > >> the non-experts telling him he knows everything because theyS > >> don't know anything.2 > >>E > >IMHO you really have put your finger on a *large* problem there!!!tC > >The school system is spending so much time artificially buildingm> > >up the self-esteem of the students that it is pitiful. SomeD > >schools have gotten rid of grades and sports competition, becauseC > >the loser's self-esteem would be devestated.  They are also busy C > >trying to emphasize how "equal" everyone is...and how people whoaB > >are "descriminated against" should be given a head start...thatE > >they are bringing forth people who are *not* ready to do somethingc > >useful in the world.S > B > Exactly!!!!!  Another thing that he is getting "taught" is that,> > just because he is smart, he doesn't have to do as much workB > as the lesser kids.  For example, in his math classes, the classC > is assigned 20 problem; he only has to do three.  I maintain thath< > he should be assigned more than 20--ideally all different.1 > I don't think he is going to survive adulthood.a> > He certainly is in for a very rough time when he attends his > first college class. > B Indeed!!! And a lot of this happens as a matter of course. I mean,? the school system teaches to the "average" kid...which is often ? a euphemism for the lowest common denominator. So a kid that iso> smart gets bored...and gets the idea that he can skate his way through life.   D Yes, if your nephew is smart, he *should* be assigned more difficultE work. I thought that is why they had special classes for smart peoplerB called "honors" classes. I guess a lot of school systems can *not* afford that...   -- r? +-------------------------------------------------------------+s? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |,? +-------------------------------------------------------------+u   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 02 10:03:29 GMTw From: jmfbahciv@aol.comnY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise    of cT+ Message-ID: <a1enla$eue$5@bob.news.rcn.net>r  ' In article <3C3AC94A.48138FB9@ev1.net>,t-    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:L >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  >> /* >> In article <3C395777.A4F4FC8C@ev1.net>,0 >>    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote: >> >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: >> >>o- >> >> In article <3C3745DE.8FF49129@ev1.net>, 3 >> >>    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:e >> >> >i2 >> >> >     [snip...]     [snip...]      [snip...] >> >> > G >> >> >I know... I just threw that in for the benefit of your nephew...n >> >> >5> >> >> ROTFL.  It's really not his fault; it's the fault of allB >> >> the non-experts telling him he knows everything because they >> >> don't know anything. >> >> F >> >IMHO you really have put your finger on a *large* problem there!!!D >> >The school system is spending so much time artificially building? >> >up the self-esteem of the students that it is pitiful. SomeeE >> >schools have gotten rid of grades and sports competition, because D >> >the loser's self-esteem would be devestated.  They are also busyD >> >trying to emphasize how "equal" everyone is...and how people whoC >> >are "descriminated against" should be given a head start...thatlF >> >they are bringing forth people who are *not* ready to do something >> >useful in the world. >> 0C >> Exactly!!!!!  Another thing that he is getting "taught" is that,t? >> just because he is smart, he doesn't have to do as much work C >> as the lesser kids.  For example, in his math classes, the classtD >> is assigned 20 problem; he only has to do three.  I maintain that= >> he should be assigned more than 20--ideally all different.d2 >> I don't think he is going to survive adulthood.? >> He certainly is in for a very rough time when he attends hiss >> first college class.u >>C >Indeed!!! And a lot of this happens as a matter of course. I mean, @ >the school system teaches to the "average" kid...which is often@ >a euphemism for the lowest common denominator. So a kid that is? >smart gets bored...and gets the idea that he can skate his wayt >through life. r  : Not only that he can, but that it is his _right_ to do so.: "I'm smart, therefore I don't have to work for a living.  7 Other people must give me everything I want because I'm : smarter than them."  My hypothesis that he hasn't demanded: anything from me is because he perceives me to be smarter. :-)o   >,E >Yes, if your nephew is smart, he *should* be assigned more difficult F >work. I thought that is why they had special classes for smart peopleC >called "honors" classes. I guess a lot of school systems can *not*l >afford that...m  ; From what I understood, this was an honors class.  I may bea> mistaken about this.  Do you understand why I'm worried about  that generation?  9 It has been my observation that, the smarter one is, the r9 harder we get worked.  Of course, that's also due to the u/ fact that most people who are smart have a neede
 to produce.  b   /BAH      ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.i   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 02 11:17:54 GMTr From: jmfbahciv@aol.comoY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise    of cod+ Message-ID: <a1es0q$t4l$2@bob.news.rcn.net>   . In article <a1casf$1h$1@paris.btinternet.com>,4    "Rupert Pigott" <Darkb00ng@btinternet.com> wrote:K ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1c8fo$9rr$3@bob.news.rcn.net...C >[SNIP] C >> Exactly!!!!!  Another thing that he is getting "taught" is that, ? >> just because he is smart, he doesn't have to do as much work C >> as the lesser kids.  For example, in his math classes, the classDD >> is assigned 20 problem; he only has to do three.  I maintain that= >> he should be assigned more than 20--ideally all different.d2 >> I don't think he is going to survive adulthood.? >> He certainly is in for a very rough time when he attends his  >> first college class.o >bF >The chances are College will have changed it's format to fit by then. <snip>  = That's not going to be the problem.  The problem will be thatg; he'll have a culture shock.  He will be in competition witha8 people who are just as smart or smarter than he is.  And there will be a lot of them.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 12:37:39 +0100 ( From: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise    of comd& Message-ID: <3C3ADA03.8C1BDCC3@gmx.de>   Charles Richmond schrieb:eD > Indeed!!! And a lot of this happens as a matter of course. I mean,A > the school system teaches to the "average" kid...which is ofteniA > a euphemism for the lowest common denominator. So a kid that isa@ > smart gets bored...and gets the idea that he can skate his way > through life.e  D The PISA studies recovered that teaching "lowest common denominator"? doesn't help the under-achievers, either. In fact, the "frontalt@ teaching" model used in many schools is the worst problem. OtherH problems are that in many industrial nations, the decline of birth ratesG led to fewer pupils, and instead of making smaller classes, the typicalsD decision is to stop hiring new teachers (so that the burned out onesH dominate). There are far more things to do to get a good school systems.  F Step 1: kill buero"crazy". In Germany, each country has a large schoolC buerocracy which reglements many things schools do without being inSA touch with teaching. This includes even choosing the directors of.E schools by what party they belong to. These school regulation offices G have to be shut down almost completely (giving their task into the handpG of teachers and pupils (+ their parents) of the school, who know better C what to do). The remaining tasks for the buerocracy are: scientifichD evaluation of the work schools do (i.e. performing studies like PISA? regulary), and coordinating efforts for standardized exams. ThesB scandinavic countries did that a while ago, and they head the PISA ranks.  E Step 2: change the teaching model (frontal teaching), it is outdated.uF Kids learn much more from peers and own efforts than from listening toF adults. Also, there's no point in first teaching childrens to talk andD walk, and then to sit and shut up. Passive bodies also shut down theG brain. Also, things that have obvious practical relevance are easier toeD learn, since motivation is higher. The way school today is separatedD from other activities of society defeats quite a lot (example: whileC Germany ranks pretty low in the PISA study, this doesn't have a bad C effect on German worker skill, due to dual education system (partlyhG school, partly on the job) that's used for most jobs that don't require  university degrees).  H Step 3: some skills have aquiring opportunity windows. Languages are theF most prominent example, they are easiest to aquire early in childhood,= and most difficult to aquire during pupertary. However, sincetH traditional schools consider languages "difficult", they are only taughtE to a "more mature audience", i.e. childrens during pupertary. Bummer./, It's like teaching 13 year old boys to sing.   --   Bernd Paysan7 "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"e http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 14:35:25 +0100a3 From: Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com>eY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise    of comg- Message-ID: <3C3AF59C.E2BE1C6E@hda.hydro.com>-   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:= > From what I understood, this was an honors class.  I may bet? > mistaken about this.  Do you understand why I'm worried aboute > that generation? > : > It has been my observation that, the smarter one is, the: > harder we get worked.  Of course, that's also due to the1 > fact that most people who are smart have a neede
 > to produce.s  G Most smart people gets bored easily, the only sure way to avoid this iss9 to continually learn new stuff, and (hopefully) apply it.   E I'm not vain enough to believe that I couldn't have a satisfying lifesG without producing anything at all of value (to the rest of society), as D long as I had a good supply of SF books and  problems/brain teasers.  H (How's that for a convoluted sentence? It falls far short of last week'sF "I couldn't disagree less...", but not too bad for a norwegian guy :-)  H Anyway, one of the key problems seems to be that only a very, very smallE percentage of the population drives progress, so how do you make sureiH that those who are actually capable of it ends up with the education/job environment they need to do it?e  H Or is this no problem at all, simply because the same people will excell no matter where you place them?-   Terje-   --    - <Terje.Mathisen@hda.hydro.com>@ "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 17:38:39 GMT.4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>B Subject: Re: [Q] Installing the VXT2000+ software on OpenVMS/Alpha0 Message-ID: <3C3B2DDB.9FF072E2@blueyonder.co.uk>   "Matthew X. Economou" wrote: > G > >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:o >  >     Tim> check the docs  > G > There in lies the rub.  I have the VXT.  I have the software courtesyeB > of the freeware downloads.  I do not have any documentation, andG > Google searches for the same haven't turned up anything.  If you knowiF > where I can download the VXT documentation, I would be most grateful > if you shared it with me.e > E > Like how to get the damn thing to MOP-load the boot images once the + > VXT021 package is installed on the Alpha.e >   = OK, I didn't realize there was a problem with access to docs..  I I have some vague memory the VXT kits and docs I used were on a DeCCampuss' CD from mid 90's, not much help to you.   J ANyway, if you have the boot images installed then as you say its just the$ MOP loading you need to get working.  + Are you running DECNEt Phase IV or Phase V?.F Any suspicious messages in sys$manager:operator.log that coincide withE boot attempts. Or you could reply/enable=network and try to boot the n) VXT and look for messages on your screen.n  I If you only have 2 meg RAM in the VXT it won't work without an infoservere for paging.    regardst   > :) >  > --H > Matthew X. Economou <xenophon@irtnog.org> - Unsafe at any clock speed!L > "Little grey men are coming our way (tastes just like chicken, they say)." >  - Clutchh   -- a Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  n  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.014 ************************