0 INFO-VAX	Wed, 09 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 16      Contents: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSC Re: Any examples of setting up an FTP session from within an image? / Apache (CSWS), TCPware and DCL cgi-bin problems 3 Re: Apache (CSWS), TCPware and DCL cgi-bin problems 3 Re: Apache (CSWS), TCPware and DCL cgi-bin problems  Re: Backup solution: Tivoli TSM > Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the+ Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records $ Re: C++ Runtime problem with fstream= Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders = Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"  DCL whish list RE: DCL whish list Re: DCL whish list RE: DCL whish list Re: DCL whish list Re: DCL whish list Re: DCL whish list RE: DCL whish list Re: DCL whish list Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)  Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item) 4 Re: DECdtm DTI$S_PART_NAME should be (no *IS*)  255!4 Re: DECdtm DTI$S_PART_NAME should be (no *IS*)  255!- Re: DEClaser 2200 - pickup roller replacement  DECpc AXP 150 and VMS. Re: DECpc AXP 150 and VMS. Re: DECpc AXP 150 and VMS. DECWindows problem Re: DECWindows problem Re: DECWindows problem) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? ) Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support? I EXPUNGE and so on (was Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC) M Re: EXPUNGE and so on (was Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC) J Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat EstimatesJ Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat EstimatesJ Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat EstimatesJ Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat EstimatesP Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimates Estim. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 5 Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V 5 Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V 5 Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V 5 Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V 1 Re: how to display the nodename in the dcl prompt 1 Re: how to display the nodename in the dcl prompt 1 Re: how to display the nodename in the dcl prompt 1 Re: how to display the nodename in the dcl prompt 1 Re: how to display the nodename in the dcl prompt $ Re: Multithreading within a process.@ Re: Need example code for FTPeeing from own image - anyone help?@ Re: Need example code for FTPeeing from own image - anyone help?( Re: OpenVMS Disk Services for Windows NT1 OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 9 5 Re: OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 9 5 Re: OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 9  PWS500au, parallel port, DCPS ! Re: PWS500au, parallel port, DCPS ' PWS600a, au, BA35x and all these things : Re: Samsung ordered to pay $73.5 million for mismanagement; Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products P Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demiP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demiP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demis Using "-" in a Filename  Re: Using "-" in a Filename  Re: Using "-" in a Filename  Re: Using "-" in a Filename > VAX 4000/100 with Correctable Memory Errors resulting in crash Re: VAX in a VT-103? Re: VAX in a VT-103?( Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public( RE: VMS Marketing For the General Public( RE: VMS Marketing For the General Public( RE: VMS Marketing For the General Public3 Want to follow IBM model Capellas?  IBM quits pc's! 7 Re: Want to follow IBM model Capellas?  IBM quits pc's! # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha  who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" RE: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The    demise    of P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The    demise    of P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise    of cF Re: [anounce] Sanity Kit for Compaq C++ V6.5 for OpenVMS Alpha systems7 [tired] PWS600au does not e7 e6 e5... anymore and hangs   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:42:29 -0500/ From: "Michael A. Foley" <mikiefoley@yahoo.com> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS / Message-ID: <u3p3olq438kk7d@corp.supernews.com>   @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:mzI_7.416$5Y4.11407@news.cpqcorp.net...L > Well, I don't have a schedule, but there is a sizeable number of engineersK > that have been assigned to doing just that - UNIX compatability (UNIX 98,  > GNV, etc). > J > Once that stuff gets done, plus what we already did for COE - you should beL > able to pull it over and use the makefile, or script used on UNIX to buildI > it.  Of course, this does not count any optional work you might want to  add 4 > to make things like file paths/names VMS-friendly. >  > I can't wait.   E     Very cool. Very, very cool. It could be a powerful selling point.   D    BTW, I was having lunch in ZK a few weeks ago and tried to pop myL     head in to say hello but I couldn't find you or Hoff. I did run into Dan,     Marshall and saw Forrest in the hallway.     mike   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 17:09:06 GMT $ From: Nick@Swiftbase.net (Nick Ross)L Subject: Re: Any examples of setting up an FTP session from within an image?6 Message-ID: <3c3c776e.315180235@news.cyberphile.co.uk>  F I appreciate this suggestion but I was trying to avoid going this way.C I already have a process running (a symbiont) and didn't want it to D have to create a second. Naively I had assumed there would be an API	 for UCX..   , On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 18:38:55 -0500, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:    >Hoff Hoffman wrote:N >>   I'd encourage use of a lib$spawn with a mailbox input, and I'd explicitlyM >>   ask lib$spawn to not copy any symbols and logical names into the created  >>   subprocess.   > I >This is especially valuable if the subprocess persists and you can issue I >multiple FTP commands by just writing to the mailbox that is read by the J >subprocess. The trick though is to parse the "variable" output of the FTP5 >process to deal with various possible error reports.  > M >However, if you have multiple files to transfer, then the single suboprocess K >can do it with a single log-in to the remote FTP server and then you issue  >individual commands.  > K >(ie. don't issue LIB$SPAWN commands for each file, create a subprocess and L >feed it commands, with a EXIT and LOGOUT at the end to end the subprocess).   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 04:46:39 -0800   From: theop@itex.je (Theo Platt)8 Subject: Apache (CSWS), TCPware and DCL cgi-bin problems= Message-ID: <31ff7ddd.0201090446.1ac12cf7@posting.google.com>   F We're trying to get DCL cgi-bin programs to work with CSWS and TCPwareF (again). Everything works fine when we use the DEC TCP/IP stack but asE soon as we switch back to the TCPware TCP/IP stack all of our cgi-bin C DCL programs report a server error (the error_log reports unable to  spawn child process errors).  E Several months ago we got in touch with Process about the problem but F they've not yet been able to help us much (and I made a posting here aC few months ago too). Has anyone else experienced the same problem ? D and has anyone solved it without reverting to the DEC TCP/IP stack ?   Many thanks    Theo   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 13:53:56 GMT = From: jlw@psulias.psu.edu (j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818) < Subject: Re: Apache (CSWS), TCPware and DCL cgi-bin problems, Message-ID: <a1hi1k$14bm@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>  ` In article <31ff7ddd.0201090446.1ac12cf7@posting.google.com>, theop@itex.je (Theo Platt) writes:G >We're trying to get DCL cgi-bin programs to work with CSWS and TCPware G >(again). Everything works fine when we use the DEC TCP/IP stack but as F >soon as we switch back to the TCPware TCP/IP stack all of our cgi-binD >DCL programs report a server error (the error_log reports unable to >spawn child process errors).  > F >Several months ago we got in touch with Process about the problem butG >they've not yet been able to help us much (and I made a posting here a D >few months ago too). Has anyone else experienced the same problem ?E >and has anyone solved it without reverting to the DEC TCP/IP stack ?  >  >Many thanks >  >Theo   @ 	Can't say about TCPWARE, but under MULTINET (also from PROCESS,B 	now), we saw a similar issue.  Turns out it was after we upgradedA 	to a new version of CSWS that was coded AFTER COMPAQ changed the @ 	name of all UCX$* logicals to be TCPIP$* instead.  Multinet has? 	a patch for this but the workaround was fast and easy once the  	issue was realized:  + 		$ DEFINE/SYS/EXEC TCPIP$DEVICE UCX$DEVICE    	Try that and see if it helps.  M +-"Never Underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag tapes"--+ N | J.Lance Wilkinson ("Lance")            InterNet:  Lance.Wilkinson@psu.edu | M | Systems Design Specialist - Lead       AT&T:      (814) 865-1818          | M | Library Computing Services             FAX:       (814) 863-3560          | M | E3 Paterno Library                     "I'd rather be dancing..."         | M | Penn State University         A host is a host from coast to coast,       | M | University Park, PA 16802     And no one will talk to a host that's close | M | <postmaster@psulias.psu.edu>  Unless the host that isn't close            | M | VMS GopherMeister             Is busy, hung or dead.                      | M +------"He's dead, Jim. I'll get his tricorder. You take his wallet."-------+ 9                 [apologies to DeForest Kelley, 1920-1999] 3 <A Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu">home page</a>  J <a Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu/junkdec.htm">junk mail declaration</a>   --	       /"\ #       \ /     ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN !        X        AGAINST HTML MAIL 	       / \    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 15:26:52 GMT = From: jlw@psulias.psu.edu (j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818) < Subject: Re: Apache (CSWS), TCPware and DCL cgi-bin problems, Message-ID: <a1hnfs$1dfe@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>  l In article <a1hi1k$14bm@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>, jlw@psulias.psu.edu (j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818) writes: ~ A ~	Can't say about TCPWARE, but under MULTINET (also from PROCESS, C ~	now), we saw a similar issue.  Turns out it was after we upgraded B ~	to a new version of CSWS that was coded AFTER COMPAQ changed theA ~	name of all UCX$* logicals to be TCPIP$* instead.  Multinet has @ ~	a patch for this but the workaround was fast and easy once the ~	issue was realized:  ~ , ~		$ DEFINE/SYS/EXEC TCPIP$DEVICE UCX$DEVICE ~  ~	Try that and see if it helps.   @ 	Oops.  Said too much.  No patch for Multinet on this, accordingC 	to a comment on the vmsnet.networks.tcp-ip.multinet newsgroup that # 	I read after posting this.  Sorry.    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 01:27:40 -0800 * From: polato@igi.pd.cnr.it (Sandro Polato)( Subject: Re: Backup solution: Tivoli TSM= Message-ID: <2af2b3d8.0201090127.6d01e6c5@posting.google.com>   v Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message news:<20020108115611.77482.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>...2 > Anyone is using this corporate backup solution ?4 > We are using EMC/EDM and having a lot of troubles.3 > My manager is interested to know if this solution 5 > (Tivoli TSM) works fine for OpenVMS, AIX, IRIX, Win  > 2000 backups.   F I think TimeNavigator could be a great solution: http://www.atempo.com! We are going to evaluate it soon.   
 Sandro Polato  MenuFinder programmer  (www.itre.com/mf)    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:27:11 GMT " From: bonomi@c-ns. (Robert Bonomi)G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the 8 Message-ID: <jhS_7.821$Kf.15197@ord-read.news.verio.net>  3 In article <yUabDk1pELgR@eisner.encompasserve.org>, . Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:5 >In article <a1cqfb017e5@drn.newsguy.com>, Tim Shoppa # ><shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes: P >> In article <sJsqVfwoEmbR@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org >>> F >>>   Interrupts are delivered "between" instructions, not during one. >>>  >>   >> ??? On what architecture?   > I >   Uncle.  OK, I short changed that one a bit.  I know MOVCx, POLYx, and G >   others on VAX are interruptable, but we were really talking about a G >   simple ADD.  Do you know of any processor that has an interruptable  >   integer ADD? >   E on systems like MVS, and successors, ADD could be interrupted as many 4 as three times, in some pathological cases.  to wit:H the instruction spans a page boundary.  the 2nd page is -not- in memory.6 page-fault to fetch the new page, restart instruction.  E Now, the add in question uses a memory-indirect operand, not straight  register-register. so, we add:  K Memory operand (address) is on a page not in mempry.  page-fault,  restart. A indirect operand (value) is not in memory.  page-fault.  restart.     " Three interrupts on a single ADD.   F (It could have been worse,  if 'non-aligned' operands are allowed, theK memory operand, and indirect operand could have spanned pages, and required . _two_ page-fault interrupts *each* to resolve)  K On a system like DataGeneral AOS/VS, indirect addresses could be 'chained'. F where the target address contained a bit indicating whether -it- was aG direct address, or an indirect pointer to 'somewhere else'.  limit was o6 something like 15, or 31 levels of indirection , IIRC.     In a VM environment,O Every memory reference (instruction -or- data) is a potential interrupt source.dG Every allowed level of indirect addressing is a potential *additional* m   interrupt source.,J Every instruction _or_ operand (direct, or indirect) that can span a page 7   boundary is _yet_another_ potential interrupt source.    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 02:25:56 -0600u- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)sG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the 3 Message-ID: <mUon32KfHB1J@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  \ In article <a1gd48$1al$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:5 > In article <yUabDk1pELgR@eisner.encompasserve.org>,d0 > Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:J >>   Uncle.  OK, I short changed that one a bit.  I know MOVCx, POLYx, andH >>   others on VAX are interruptable, but we were really talking about aH >>   simple ADD.  Do you know of any processor that has an interruptable >>   integer ADD?  >  > How aboutC >  > 	ADDL2	(R1)+,(R2)+ > = > where R1 and R2 both point to different non-resident pages?   ; I believe ADDL2 is a non-interruptable instructions on VAX, 7 so after the fault was handled the instruction would be  restarted from scratch.o  < Contrast this with MOVCx, where if the FPD (first part done)8 bit has been set by the time of the interrupt, execution5 after the handler exits is continued part-way throughE6 the instruction (on whatever character it was doing, I4 believe) rather than having to start all over again.8 That handling based on the First Part Done bit is always4 what I have thought of as being the definition of an! interruptable instruction on VAX.U   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 13:03:57 GMTC( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for theo1 Message-ID: <a1hf3t$it7$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>e  3 In article <mUon32KfHB1J@eisner.encompasserve.org>,t. Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:< >I believe ADDL2 is a non-interruptable instructions on VAX,8 >so after the fault was handled the instruction would be >restarted from scratch.  G So the fault on (R2)+ would unwind the increment on R1? Or is the post- F increment deferred until after the instruction is complete? What about Autodecrement Indexed mode?e  . Is that still true on heavily pipelined VAXes?   -- t@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)c   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 08:19:24 -0600o- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)tG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thei3 Message-ID: <nuk5dL+cZane@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  c In article <mUon32KfHB1J@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:t^ > In article <a1gd48$1al$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:6 >> In article <yUabDk1pELgR@eisner.encompasserve.org>,1 >> Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote: K >>>   Uncle.  OK, I short changed that one a bit.  I know MOVCx, POLYx, andaI >>>   others on VAX are interruptable, but we were really talking about aeI >>>   simple ADD.  Do you know of any processor that has an interruptablef >>>   integer ADD? >>   >> How about >> e >> 	ADDL2	(R1)+,(R2)+a >>  > >> where R1 and R2 both point to different non-resident pages? > = > I believe ADDL2 is a non-interruptable instructions on VAX,f9 > so after the fault was handled the instruction would bee > restarted from scratch.r  >    I've always been under the impression that the only truley ?    interruptable instructions on the VAX are the ones which usewE    general purpose registers for intermediate results, and that beingiE    interruptable is the reason MOVCx et. al. alter so many registers.f  @    It is necessary to store context when interrupting something.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 18:26:24 +0100lE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>cG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the + Message-ID: <3C3C7D40.678B68C3@mediasec.de>C  I > So the fault on (R2)+ would unwind the increment on R1? Or is the post- H > increment deferred until after the instruction is complete? What about > Autodecrement Indexed mode?o  N That is implementation-defined - it just has to appear to any outside observer> (including the access violation exception handler aka the pageI fault handler) that the register changes have not occured. The complexityoG of this (it's even worse for some things on the 68040) is what puts themJ VAX on the top of the CISC list in John Mashey's processor classification.M Think an ADDP6 with all bells and whistles...IIRC, it needs something like 53o# pages in the worst case to execute.a  0 > Is that still true on heavily pipelined VAXes?  + Yes, because it's architecturally mandated.    	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 07:29:52 -0600l From: briggs@encompasserve.org4 Subject: Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records3 Message-ID: <pdWbcusXz0FQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  \ In article <3C3B79FC.776343AD@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:! > briggs@encompasserve.org wrote:eK >> I'd be very tempted to divide the map up into grid sections and go for aoK >> record organization where each record would contain waypoint informationa! >> for a particular grid section.n > P > However, calculating a grid number based on lat/long and having that as one ofP > the keys would allow me to retrieve all records in a grid fairly effiently andL > only select those that are inside of the rectangle. (with code to also get > adjacent grids).  > Yeah.  Sounds good.  Physically you still get good locality ofC reference because the records that share a common primary key valuea? (or leading substring thereof) tend to land in a single bucket.u  B And now you have RMS worrying about the mechanics of inserting and, deleting waypoints from buckets.  Very nice.  J >> Grid section size would obviously be a key tuning parameter.  You couldJ >> consider the possibility of a non-uniform section size designed to keep4 >> the number of waypoints per section more uniform. > L > no. the grid "number" must be logical, mathematically derived based on theN > lat/lon of a given point. If you give me lat/lon combination, I must be ableM > to find in what grid it is located in. (and if you give me 4 such points, I U > need to know what grids each of them is in and then extract data from those grids).a  G One could take the obvious equal-division grid algorithm and augment it-6 with a look-up table of special-cased urban hot spots.  D Or one could go with a hierarchical approach.  You code a gross grid@ coordinate in the first few characters of your primary key and a? sub-grid coordinate in the next few and so on.  Hmm.  That ideasB has definite possibilities.  You get a unique primary key for eachC waypoint.  And you still have nice geographic locality of referencetD at any chosen granularity.  One character per hierarchy level could,A for instance, encode a 16 by 16 grid at each level.  Or you could H go with 10 by 10 (or 6 by 6) and map directly to digits in your latitude /longitude specification.a  H But the utility of either technique depends on the size and distributionF of your search rectangles.  If you tend to have huge search rectanglesD that cover entire cities then there's not much point in getting very- fancy with the grid code selection algorithm.f   	John Briggs   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 06:49:54 -0800o, From: tony.cheung@asiayeah.com (Tony Cheung)- Subject: Re: C++ Runtime problem with fstreama= Message-ID: <f9dc0a5a.0201090649.492a305f@posting.google.com>-  f "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org> wrote in message news:<3zP_7.435$5Y4.12316@news.cpqcorp.net>...G > I just tried this on Solaris with Sun's 5.0 compiler and got the same- > behavior as with Compaq.    B Interesting, indeed I use gcc on Solaris/AIX. It could be gcc have" different behaviours in this case.   Thanks.r   Tony Cheungo   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 09:54:33 +0000t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>TF Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders8 Message-ID: <g94o3u4qmi5e6cp2pbl08r70i2sb35aea1@4ax.com>  . On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:27:06 GMT, "Duane Sand"" <Duane.Sand@mindspring.com> wrote:    ; >This active public opposition by a director may be legally.9 >complying with the merger contract but it sure isn't thei8 >package that Compaq thought they & HP were agreeing to.  > But that's symptomatic of current Compaq management. Rush into2 something and hope for the best. Get the worst....  A Recall the first discussions regarding a potential merger between E Compaq and HP in this group took place back around a year ago when ancB analyst suggested just this. The idea was basically laughed at. IfF Compaq management were not aware of the level of discomfort which thisD proposed merger could generate and the potential fatal wounds CompaqD could suffer if the deal fell through then they are out of touch and) have no business running a major company.0  2 Same goes for premature end of Alpha announcement.  F Like it or not and despite some disagreements comp.os.vms/info-vax hasE shown a far greater ability to predict future directions and outcomesg) of certain actions than the Compaq board..   >y- >  -- Duane Sand, not speaking for Compaq etcc >u >s >o >a >e   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 15:41:29 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>F Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders; Message-ID: <JwZ_7.8369$fG.45694@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>m  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:g94o3u4qmi5e6cp2pbl08r70i2sb35aea1@4ax.com...   > H > Like it or not and despite some disagreements comp.os.vms/info-vax hasG > shown a far greater ability to predict future directions and outcomes + > of certain actions than the Compaq board.i  L Heck, if that's the case, CPQ ought to be paying us, not the clueless Armani. Analysis and the Croupiers on Wall Street! ;-}   cheers,t   terry sd   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 18:54:35 +0100e1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>rF Subject: Re: Compaq's Board of Directors & their value to shareholders5 Message-ID: <3C3C83DB.89D1528F@swissonline.delete.ch>t   Duane Sand wrote:c >  ....  c, >  The terms of the merger contract say thatB > the BOD has to remain committed to the merger or else a big cashB > penalty gets paid to the other company.  (It doesn't say whether? > this means merely 51% vote of the board, or the entire set ofi > directors of the board.)  H True - and if any doubtful situation arises they must reassure the other+ party in writing within a very short time.    - >  Another term in the contract says that theo< > companies cannot have directors, executives, or committees4 > delegated by them, working on alternative mergers.  G True - but this is not happening with Walter H.  He only opposed to them current merger per se.  
 >  And the; > unwritten terms quoted for the negotiated price seemed tow! > require unanimity of the board.w  E Unwritten terms ?  This sounds like Monty Python's Piranha Brothers !   , What, pray tell, were the unwritten terms ??  > If you can't write them, put them on RealAudio somewhere.  ;-)    >  The price agreed to by Compaq? > for being acquired was based on the premise that the deal wase= > indeed fully agreed to by the necessary people and had somet; > chance of being consumated without active undercutting by > > directors.  But now Compaq is definitely not getting what it > was expecting for that price.i  0 Well it looks like Compaq's premise was wrong ..  G ...and surely with the drop in Compaq's share price and their estimatedtE earnings for 2003, HP is definitely not getting what it was expectingn either.    > This renegade director ise5 > actively and publically trying to killing the deal.  > If Compaq"9 > wanted to proceed with attempting a merger anyhow under.A > such risky and distracting conditions, it would have set a much9E > higher acquisition price as payoff for taking that additional risk,:, > or waited until HP got its house in order.  7 Your disclaimer says you are not speaking for Compaq...N  : > Hewlett is saying he could (legally) vote one way on oneA > day as a director, just to lock in the negotiated price offeredr; > for unanimity, even though Hewlett had every intention of : > voting the opposite at every subsequent vote of the BOD.! > (Have any such votes happened?)a  H I don't believe any further votes have been necessary but equally I haveG never seen his intentions about subseqent votes being stated.  (I wouldWB assume that the BoD may be required to vote if there is a material1 change in the terms & conditions of the merger.) o  : > And Hewlett could (legally) intend to vote in opposition> > with his personal holdings of stock, because that's separateA > from his role of director, if done quietly.  But Hewlett is outt@ > there actively getting press and fighting a proxy vote battle;0 > not the actions of "just another stockholder".  ? Hey, if the stockholder has enough money to go soliciting other  stockholders votes ...  < > This active public opposition by a director may be legally: > complying with the merger contract but it sure isn't the9 > package that Compaq thought they & HP were agreeing to.a  E As I said a week or so ago, assumption is the mother of all *ck up's.b   > . >   -- Duane Sand, not speaking for Compaq etc    & John McLean, speaking only for himslf.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 13:20:05 GMTn# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"> Message-ID: <9sX_7.158503$pa1.47307554@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messages8 news:n4R_7.10796$DG5.109136@rwcrnsc53.ops.asp.att.net... >/) > If nominated, I'll run. If elected, VMS  >n >   C Call Compaq's head office (281) 370-0670 , 0  ask for the Corporate-L Secretary's office, or failing that, ask for Thomas C. Siekman - Senior Vice President and General Counsel.  : Then ask about the procedure for nominations to the Board.  L Once we know, we can propose an entire slate of candidates, get press in theH WSJ, Financial Times, etc... and make it known that there is a competingG slate of candidates to those proposed by Ben 'Stalin' Rosen and Michaela 'Iron Felix' Capellas.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 13:09:04 GMTm# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>a6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"> Message-ID: <QhX_7.158477$pa1.47302777@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>  I Stalin is alive and chairing a Board in Houston. And all along we thoughtr the Cold War was over.    ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in messagec8 news:n4R_7.10796$DG5.109136@rwcrnsc53.ops.asp.att.net... >s< > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3C3BDC6D.5A793D2A@videotron.ca... > > Rich Jordan wrote:J > > > I'm holding mine until the vote on the merger and any possible votes onL > > > retention of company officers.  Its worth the potential greater losses > (notL > > > as big as yours, I imagine) to retain that ability.  Oust the buggers. > >dG > > Ousting the buggers is one thing, but do shareholders have any reala > influence J > > on the selection of their replacement, or would Ben Rosen again choose	 > someoneo > > to act on his behalf ? > >gI > > If Capellas is fired and they put WInkler in place, will that improveh > anything ? > >aL > > Is there a way for shareholders to actually tell the board WHAT/WHO they > want > > as a replacement ? >rL > Not to the best of my knowledge, although I am not a certified Wall StreetJ > Casino Croupier. At the last Annual Stockholder's Meeting, an initiativeG > allowing more than one candidate for each vacant seat on the Board of.F > Directors was voted down. Well, I guess that simplifies the election > process... > 	 > cheers,o >e	 > terry sl) > If nominated, I'll run. If elected, VMSe >a >a   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 04:33:08 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> Subject: DCL whish liste@ Message-ID: <20020109123308.94965.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com>   I just want this  $ $ DELETE/ENTRY=3DALL/QUE=3DSYS$PRINT   Why not ???:   Regards    FC=20    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DoL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Da F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilv fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/i   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:53:47 -0000* From: Andrew Robinson <arobinson@hspg.com> Subject: RE: DCL whish list+M Message-ID: <CDA4BAD1E10ED41181AC00508B6051D3C3E551@grumpy.internal.hspg.com>v   >-----Original Message-----i >From: Fabio Cardoso o >I just want thiss >n! >$ DELETE/ENTRY=ALL/QUE=SYS$PRINTt >e >Why not ??? >  >Regards >i >FC   $ I'd like to add my vote to this one.   Andrew Robinsont   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:10:44 +0200' From: "Gabriel Sterk" <gabi@aipm.co.il>o Subject: Re: DCL whish listo2 Message-ID: <000001c1990f$0c4e45e0$2c46bf10@manai>   -----Original Message-----5 From: Fabio Cardoso [mailto:fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br]h   I just want this    $ DELETE/ENTRY=ALL/QUE=SYS$PRINT   Why not ???    Regards-   FC -   --------  & Add:  /USER=uname   to the above also.   Regards,  
 Gabriel Sterki   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 08:40:03 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: DCL whish listU- Message-ID: <0033000047246391000002L012*@MHS>i  H =0A$ DELETE/USER/PHYSICAL/PERMANENT/TERMINATE=3D(WITH_EXTREME_PREJUDICE= )    :^)t   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETc) Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 8:16 AMdB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: RE: DCL whish liste     -----Original Message-----5 From: Fabio Cardoso [mailto:fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br]A   I just want this  $ $ DELETE/ENTRY=3DALL/QUE=3DSYS$PRINT   Why not ???F   Regardso   FC   -------t  ( Add:  /USER=3Duname   to the above also.   Regards,   Gabriel Sterk=   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 08:08:11 -06000 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: DCL whish listR3 Message-ID: <lx0To+zwmxN7@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <20020109123308.94965.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com>, Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes:  > I just want this > & > $ DELETE/ENTRY=3DALL/QUE=3DSYS$PRINT > 
 > Why not ???l   $ INIT /QUEUE DELETE_MEo# $ ASSIGN /MERGE DELETE_ME SYS$PRINTI $ DELETE /QUEUE DELETE_MEn   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:20:36 -05000 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> Subject: Re: DCL whish list 4 Message-ID: <6cZ_7.9625$Q06.60911@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   That's what I do Quick and effective.  1 And this time I'd say: "that's the way to do it!" 0 Quite an interesting debate this all started :-)   --   SyltremeI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)D> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  8 <briggs@encompasserve.org> a crit dans le message news:( lx0To+zwmxN7@eisner.encompasserve.org...H > In article <20020109123308.94965.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com>, Fabio* Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes: > > I just want this > >i( > > $ DELETE/ENTRY=3DALL/QUE=3DSYS$PRINT > >i > > Why not ???x >. > $ INIT /QUEUE DELETE_MEs% > $ ASSIGN /MERGE DELETE_ME SYS$PRINTx > $ DELETE /QUEUE DELETE_ME. > 
 > John Briggs-   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 07:30:40 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> Subject: Re: DCL whish listw@ Message-ID: <20020109153040.17620.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>  5 May I suggest a survey to Terry Shannon an Ken Farmer  at OpenVMS.org  about this ????      Regards    FC=20 * --- Gabriel Sterk <gabi@aipm.co.il> wrote: >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Fabio Cardoso # > [mailto:fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br]t >=20 > I just want this >=20& > $ DELETE/ENTRY=3DALL/QUE=3DSYS$PRINT >=20
 > Why not ???a >=20	 > Regards) >=20 > FC=20t >=20	 > -------o >=20* > Add:  /USER=3Duname   to the above also. >=20
 > Regards, >=20 > Gabriel Sterkp     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DtL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilt fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Da  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/g   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 16:01:31 -00007 From: "POWERS, John" <John.POWERS@reading.sema.slb.com>  Subject: RE: DCL whish listrH Message-ID: <D30A62ABC710D211AEE100A0C9D615EE015290D8@reaes2.sema.co.uk>  9 Well, this satisfies the basic requirement for nuking thec8 entire contents of a queue, but a 'smart bomb' method=20) would be nice as well for calls such as..i DELETE /ENTRY=3D* /USER=3DJGPg . or ..u( DELETE /ENTRY=3D* /BY_JOB_STATUS=3DTIMED  9 Maybe now is politically a good time to pressurize Compaqa7 into adding nice little extras like this, while they'rei9 being accused of trying to kill off VMS. They may want tog/ listen, as a demonstration of their commitment.l  : Of course, who has got the time to organise such lobbying?8 Not me :(. Still, this is all good kite flying, and some8 genuine technical VMS-related stuff in this newsgroup=20$ currently makes a refreshing change.     - John john powersy   -----Original Message-----@ From: Syltrem [mailto:syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca.sema.co.uk] Sent: 09 January 2002 15:21h To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como Subject: Re: DCL whish liste     That's what I do Quick and effective.  1 And this time I'd say: "that's the way to do it!"i0 Quite an interesting debate this all started :-)   --   SyltremtK http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en fran=E7ais)i> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  : <briggs@encompasserve.org> a =E9crit dans le message news:( lx0To+zwmxN7@eisner.encompasserve.org...H > In article <20020109123308.94965.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com>, Fabio* Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes: > > I just want this > > , > > $ DELETE/ENTRY=3D3DALL/QUE=3D3DSYS$PRINT > >  > > Why not ???e >o > $ INIT /QUEUE DELETE_MEu% > $ ASSIGN /MERGE DELETE_ME SYS$PRINTo > $ DELETE /QUEUE DELETE_MEe >i
 > John Briggss      K ___________________________________________________________________________pD This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the=20J individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are=20G solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of=20t SchlumbergerSema.=20L If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received th= isK email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or=20c- copying of this email is strictly prohibited.r  L If you have received this email in error please notify the SchlumbergerSema=/  Helpdesk by telephone on +44 (0) 121 627 5600.-K ___________________________________________________________________________C   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 18:11:43 GMT04 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: DCL whish listr0 Message-ID: <3C3C8718.2AB46C02@blueyonder.co.uk>   Fabio Cardoso wrote: >  > I just want this > " > $ DELETE/ENTRY=ALL/QUE=SYS$PRINT > 
 > Why not ???i > 5 because anyone worth their salt with DCL can write a X loop over F$GETQUI to do it?  A Mind you, I can't see adding /entry=all would break any exisiting-+ functionality, so it would be nice I guess.2 -- 4 Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  r  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of e! my employers or service provider.3   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 10:06:56 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> & Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)' Message-ID: <3C3C0830.5462C412@aaa.com>r   $ dir somefile.tmp! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files foundo8 $ pipe dir/col=1 | search sys$input IP6/out=somefile.tmp $ dir somefile.tmp   Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]   SOMEFILE.TMP;1         Total of 1 file. $ typ somefile.tmp TCPIP$IP6_SETUP.COM;1n $l  + Exacly *what* was you unable to duplicate ?o   Jan-Erik Sderholm.y   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:i > >  > > Or : > > 9 > > $ PIPE DIR | SEARCH SYS$INPUT SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LIS  > > D > > That will realy create only create *one* F.LIS, not two version. > = > I was unable to duplicate the behavior you report (V7.2-1).u >  > -- > David J. Dachterag > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:47:22 -0500a1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>a& Subject: Re: DCL wish list (of 1 item)2 Message-ID: <3C3C3BDA.5A19F7E8@firstdbasource.com>  " That's a lot of typing just to do:  < $ PIPE DIR/COL=1 | SEARCH SYS$INPUT SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F.LIS    :)     "John E. Malmberg" wrote:: >  > Syltrem wrote: > M > > I would LOVE that the SEARCH command first opens the INPUT file, then thesJ > > output file. Right now it does the reverse and that`s so inconvenient.I > > In so many procedures I am forced to have 2 different temporary filess > > because I do things like:. > >n > > $ DIR/OUTPUT=F1.LIS * > > $ SEAR F1.LIS SOMETHING /OUTPUT=F2.LIS > >o9 > > I would like to keep it to just one temp file, as in:e > D > It will always be in two temp files, no matter what you name them.3 > The output is in a different file than the input.h > J > Having it open the input file first would not eliminate the second file,3 > it would simply create a new version when it did.e > E > Since there is no savings in file I/O, there is no dissadvantage tor > using two temporary files. > 0 > $pid = f$getjpi("","PID") ! Prevent collisions/ > $tfile1 = "sys$scratch:app_name_''pid'_1.tmp"r/ > $tfile2 = "sys$scratch:app_name_''pid'_2.tmp"o > $!6 > $if f$search(tfile1) .nes. "" then delete 'tfile1';* > $dir/output='tfile1' > $!6 > $if f$search(tfile2) .nes. "" then delete 'tfile2';** > $search 'tfile1' something /out='tfile2' > $! > .... >  > $! > $all_exit:6 > $if f$search(tfile1) .nes. "" then delete 'tfile1';*6 > $if f$search(tfile2) .nes. "" then delete 'tfile2';* > $exita >  > -John  > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Onlyo   -- t   Regards,   Michael Austin7 First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.comp President/Sr. DBA Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)n 704-236-4377 (Mobile)A   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 11:37:34 GMTe? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson)l= Subject: Re: DECdtm DTI$S_PART_NAME should be (no *IS*)  255! 0 Message-ID: <3c3c24a2.13696774@news.demon.co.uk>   Richard,  F First, thanks for your appreciation for the EFT kit and documentation.D I'm glad that someone has taken the trouble to download and read it.  D Now, for the rest of this, I do have to consider what I say in lightC of a) things I've signed, b) things Software Exploration may or mayiA not wish to do with Compaq in the future, and c) the fact that it  ain't my product...C    A The restriction on the participant name reflects the maximum size F fully supported by DECdtm.  As you noted, there is some latent support@ for longer names in there, but you should consider it just that.= Specifically, as you noticed, that support does not extend to 	 recovery.a  @ You noted that you can see the longer names using LMCP.  That isD because, in these cases, LMCP accesses the log directly.  It does soF for reasons both historical (it was built simultaneously with $GETDTI)B and practical (it needs to work under conditions where the log may$ have seen some level of corruption).  B Finally, there's the question of whether or not the latent supportD could be completed.  As software is, by it's very nature, soft, then? yes, it could.  Personally, I might even find it a smallish andt@ localized change.  However, it would require changing a core VMSF component, and would therefore need to go through a much more involved? process than the XA work did (as that was layered upon existingn components).  A Aside from the time it would take to get this change out into theeB customer hands, the real issue is one of priority.  The reality isE that relatively few people will use the DECdtm services directly, and C I suspect most of those will be building interoperability gateways.oE That can now be done, and unless the participant size limit proves tosC be a killer for someone doing something like that for a popular 2PCr> protocol/api, I don't realistically see it getting a very high@ priority.  However, that is a strictly personal opinion, and the0 decision is not, and should not be, in my hands.   Jim.      8 On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:20:45 +0000 (UTC), "Richard Maher"" <maher_rj@notsohotmail.com> wrote:   >Hi, >sB >In the OpenVMS DECdtm Services Reference Manual V2.0 6-Jun-01 TheK >Revision History for Jun 6th it continues "Reduce the size of part_name to M >match dti$t_part_name". This was clearly a mistake! What should have changed:> >is dti$s_part_name and dti$t_part_log_id and so on and so on. >aK >Ok I know this is not possible because it would break existing code so cannI >we _please_ have either a new item code like dti$_txn_info_full or a newo@ >flag dti$m_search_verbose or dti$m_full_part_name or dti$m_v21? >.K >Only the output list need change. It's fair to say that different productseH >should have part_names unique within the first 32 characters so current >input wildcarding can prevail.. >eK >It's only $getdti that needs to change. I am reliably informed that it's aeK >particularly nasty piece of code, and the current DECdtm developers appearsK >loath to touch any of the underlying services but you know it makes sense?t >oF >How can $join_rm currently let me enter > 32 byte part_names and LMCPI >happily display them if there was a serious restriction? Surely this has-G >always been a buglet with $getdti that can't be fixed directly (upward<J >compatibility - I always said that you released the API documentation too- >soon :-) but a new item code has to be easy!. >hI >I don't wish to appear ungrateful! The System Service API docs have beenwM >made publicly available and XA compliance has been introduced. Please acceptnM >my sincere and heartfelt thanks! But I'm begging ya for this (probably) last. >(probably) little thing.e >pD >If Jim and crew have moved on to something else I know someone withD >experience in debuging $getdti who might be interested in doing it. >nJ >If the answer is no then is there another API for getting at the txn log?. >The truth and the real part_name is in there! >  >Regards Richard Maher.a >e >o >t >  >t >i >y >O   Jim Johnson. Software Exploration, Ltd.) (remove '.nospam' from the reply address)a   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 06:46:28 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)o= Subject: Re: DECdtm DTI$S_PART_NAME should be (no *IS*)  255!u3 Message-ID: <8G+f2WoHxSwY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   r In article <3c3c24a2.13696774@news.demon.co.uk>, Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson) writes:  C > The restriction on the participant name reflects the maximum size H > fully supported by DECdtm.  As you noted, there is some latent supportB > for longer names in there, but you should consider it just that.? > Specifically, as you noticed, that support does not extend tom > recovery.l  B For a similar example, consider that VMS fields to hold a UsernameA typically hold up to 31 characters.  But usernames are limited to-> 12 characters.  One of the big limitations in that case is the? committment made over the years regarding what will be returned-1 by JPI$_USERNAME to programs written by customer..   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 12:00:45 -0500 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>6 Subject: Re: DEClaser 2200 - pickup roller replacement. Message-ID: <3C3C773D.3625A8D9@mindspring.com>   Steve Reece wrote:  F > Does anyone know the recommended way of replacing the pickup rollers- > (upper and lower trays) in a DEClaser 2200?=  @ Sanding the rollers may also be worth a try. Seriously! OrdinaryA sandpaper (oh, 100 to 200 grit or so) can take off the glaze that/  develops on rubber feed rollers.  ? For a while, HP inkjets had this problem big time. As an "ECO",0A HP would send you this grit-gadget that sat in place of the paperhA and the printer would try to feed it, thus sanding its own infeedi rollers for you.  D And if it fails, you can still always do the transplant surgery. :-)   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 10:50:39 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>t Subject: DECpc AXP 150 and VMS.-' Message-ID: <3C3C126F.B90D7A51@aaa.com>    Hoff,b- I have a "DECpc AXP 150" (type no : PB22H-CX,L4 Series no : BA55-A9) which has *always* been running4 OpenVMS. It was actualy delivered from Digital as an3 OpenVMS server and fully supported as such. I can'tw1 remember having to do anything special with it to 3 run VMS. And most of it's "life" it was not runningE1 as a hobbyist system. And it's a white (or *was*   white when new) box.  & $ write sys$output f$getsyi("HW_NAME") DEC 2000 Model 300' $ write sys$output f$getsyi("HW_MODEL")  1044  1 Might it be that there is some difference between0+ "DECpc AXP 150" and "DEC 2000 Model 300" ??/   Jan-Erik Sderholm.W   Hoff Hoffman wrote:  >  > K >   Hobbyists might or might not be able to get certain members and certainoK >   configurations of the DIGITAL Personal Workstation -a series, the DECpc K >   150 AXP series, and various other "Whitebox" Alpha systems -- these areeK >   the Windows NT (only) Alpha systems -- to load SRM and to boot OpenVMS.o >o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 11:35:17 +0000o( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1># Subject: Re: DECpc AXP 150 and VMS..) Message-ID: <3C3C2AF5.B68C24C0@127.0.0.1>-   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:  >  > Hoff,:/ > I have a "DECpc AXP 150" (type no : PB22H-CX,j6 > Series no : BA55-A9) which has *always* been running  3 > Might it be that there is some difference between9- > "DECpc AXP 150" and "DEC 2000 Model 300" ??o   Yes.  4 Different name on the interchangeable plastic bezel." Different part number (of course).  B PS. Did you ever get sorted out with your mislayed ECU? Drop me an email...   --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 12:53:33 +0100m9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>s# Subject: Re: DECpc AXP 150 and VMS..' Message-ID: <3C3C2F3D.42159802@aaa.com>    Nic Clews wrote: >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:t > >i	 > > Hoff, 1 > > I have a "DECpc AXP 150" (type no : PB22H-CX, 8 > > Series no : BA55-A9) which has *always* been running > 5 > > Might it be that there is some difference betweenm/ > > "DECpc AXP 150" and "DEC 2000 Model 300" ??s >  > Yes. > 6 > Different name on the interchangeable plastic bezel.$ > Different part number (of course).  2 Same marking (on the front and back) as delivered.2 So they must both have been marked "DECpc AXP 150"; on the front but with different part/type no on the back !?   ) Never mind, it runs VMS just fine for me.M   > D > PS. Did you ever get sorted out with your mislayed ECU? Drop me an
 > email...  4 Yes, I found a ECU diskett (V1.11A, AK-Q2CRM-CA) in 9 another VMS distribution I had. Didn't try it, the systemv7 runs fine anyway. The message at boot that I had to runD5 the ECU dissapeared after another power off/on cycle.   	 Jan-Erik.s   >  > --* > Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences > nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:17:52 +0100) From: "Flash" <balzanotogliquesto@iol.it>d Subject: DECWindows problema' Message-ID: <a1hg1v$ia7$1@half.spin.it>=   Hi all,E  D I have installed an OpenVMS hobbyist kit on a VAXStation 4000/60 and7 registered the license for it and the layered products.nK I've tried to find some help on the Montagar site to start up the CDE loginD manager but at this site:=  C http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/sysadmin/sysadmin_1.HTML1  % the help is about Unix and not VMS!!!n  K Anybody can help me to find some documentation to set up the Login manager?=   TNXD Luca   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 15:12:09 +0100_: From: Karl Rohwedder <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de> Subject: Re: DECWindows problemo, Message-ID: <3C3C4FB9.4050106@volkswagen.de>   Flash wrote:  	 > Hi all,n > F > I have installed an OpenVMS hobbyist kit on a VAXStation 4000/60 and9 > registered the license for it and the layered products.DM > I've tried to find some help on the Montagar site to start up the CDE loginc > manager but at this site:  > E > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/sysadmin/sysadmin_1.HTMLw > ' > the help is about Unix and not VMS!!!U > M > Anybody can help me to find some documentation to set up the Login manager?t >  > TNXo > Luca >  >  >   . There is no CDE on VAX, juts DECwindows/Motif.   --    - mit freundlichen Gruessen | with best regards.   Karl RohwedderB iT-Ingenieurteam     | Ellernbruch 11       | D-38112 BraunschweigA Telefon: 0531/515521 | Telefax: 0531/515531 | Mobil: 0172/5434843sE   E-Mail: rohwedder@decus.decus.de           | iT-IngTeam@t-online.de ,           karl.rohwedder@it-ingenieurteam.de DATEX-P: 4505018005::ROHWEDDER   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:16:00 +0100) From: "Flash" <balzanotogliquesto@iol.it>a Subject: Re: DECWindows problemS' Message-ID: <a1hjen$ktp$1@half.spin.it>   G "Karl Rohwedder" <extern.karl.rohwedder@volkswagen.de> wrote in messaget& news:3C3C4FB9.4050106@volkswagen.de... > Flash wrote:  0 > There is no CDE on VAX, juts DECwindows/Motif.   ok, my fault   the problem is the same :)   Luca   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 09:37:31 +0000g( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?) Message-ID: <3C3C0F5B.6F7BFBAF@127.0.0.1>w   Richard Maher wrote: > 7 > Joel Loveless <joell@mindspring.com> wrote in messaget* > news:3c3b7fb2.2010381@news.alltel.net... > & > > and DSNLink is a wonderful source. >  > Don't you mean _was_?u  E 'DSNlink' served from Colorado. This is where we make our connection.i" Alive and well and useful as ever.   > Where are you based?  = I'm in the UK but use a jump-off system on the east coast US.l  F We also have web accounts for WIS, but I must admit to not being a fan of the web interface.i   -- s( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot come   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 13:46:00 +0000i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>d2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?8 Message-ID: <p7io3u8s24magr16b9scdu7ese0a0o5muh@4ax.com>  F On Wed, 09 Jan 2002 09:37:31 +0000, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:   >Richard Maher wrote:H >> s8 >> Joel Loveless <joell@mindspring.com> wrote in message+ >> news:3c3b7fb2.2010381@news.alltel.net..._ >> _' >> > and DSNLink is a wonderful source.- >> a >> Don't you mean _was_? > F >'DSNlink' served from Colorado. This is where we make our connection.# >Alive and well and useful as ever.1  E Alive but not well unless the US shutdown decision has been reversed.hC I would be somewhat irked if complaints from UK customers about theeE end of DSN resulted in the US service being saved but not the UK one.IA And if so why can't Compaq just redirect the UK number to the US?n   >> Where are you based?, > > >I'm in the UK but use a jump-off system on the east coast US. > G >We also have web accounts for WIS, but I must admit to not being a fany >of the web interface.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 15:21:28 +0000r( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>2 Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone here have VMS support?) Message-ID: <3C3C5FF8.CAF5D5AA@127.0.0.1>r   Alan Greig wrote:p > H > On Wed, 09 Jan 2002 09:37:31 +0000, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> > wrote: > H > >'DSNlink' served from Colorado. This is where we make our connection.% > >Alive and well and useful as ever.i > G > Alive but not well unless the US shutdown decision has been reversed.tE > I would be somewhat irked if complaints from UK customers about therG > end of DSN resulted in the US service being saved but not the UK one.NC > And if so why can't Compaq just redirect the UK number to the US?r  G I wasn't aware of any US shutdown. They have withdrawn support of earlyaG versions of DSN [on your host], but that is all. Our connection is overt  a TCP/IP interface, not dial-up.  D Without knowing the full UK story, I would still say it is unfair toE remove UK (and other?) DSN/AES/DECTEL type access from the databases.:6 I'll ask a question at our next call review meeting...   -- a( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comA   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 08:51:23 -0500D From: gce <ge@gce.com>R Subject: EXPUNGE and so on (was Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC)' Message-ID: <3C3C4ADB.4B6E4336@gce.com>H  N In view of the messages questioning the efficacy of a delete and expunge modelR (i.e., pretty much a "delete goes to wastebasket, emptying wastebasket is separateD function" system a la TOPS20) I'm wondering how this should be done.  ) In VMS, Safety implements such functions.   R That is, a delete results in a file being disposed of, fastest way being to rename= to a wastebasket directory, recording when deletion occurred.   P This leaves space used on disk, but when the disk fills up (something wants moreM space) if the disk is full, a process gets kicked off to remove stuff deletedmS more than N seconds ago. The auto cleanup is presumed otherwise to run periodicallytS so running out of room should be rare. It can be run from logout script if desired."  A Should this not be a system feature? Should it be some other way?1  K Also, the system manager can set certain filename parts (usually stuff liketK *.tmp or *.lis or whatnot) not to be protected, so a delete of these really$ blows them away at once.  / Is that a misfeature? What should it look like?/  P Finally the EXPUNGE command means "delete now, no saving, no undelete possible."  P Otherwise user UNDELETE command lets you get back files, which come back exactlyQ where they were. (It is designed not to be possible without privs to grab someoned2 else's files...just get yours back...in this way.)  T Obviously such a system can tie up space that otherwise would not be tied up, thoughR the "get space when out of space" script can do whatever the site wants, includingQ removing every file that has been deleted; source is there for it. It will induceRO delays in running but since it gets in cleanly before create or extend are ever7E sent to an ACP or XQP, anything not time critical should not see it.    T Is the possibility of such niggling issues what the noise is about? Or have I missed
 something? Glenn Everhart   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 08:31:09 -0600h+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)iV Subject: Re: EXPUNGE and so on (was Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC)3 Message-ID: <ZRW8Z4JFCeRi@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  @ In article <3C3C4ADB.4B6E4336@gce.com>, gce <ge@gce.com> writes:P > In view of the messages questioning the efficacy of a delete and expunge modelT > (i.e., pretty much a "delete goes to wastebasket, emptying wastebasket is separateF > function" system a la TOPS20) I'm wondering how this should be done. > + > In VMS, Safety implements such functions.t > T > That is, a delete results in a file being disposed of, fastest way being to rename? > to a wastebasket directory, recording when deletion occurred.e > R > This leaves space used on disk, but when the disk fills up (something wants moreO > space) if the disk is full, a process gets kicked off to remove stuff deletedrU > more than N seconds ago. The auto cleanup is presumed otherwise to run periodically U > so running out of room should be rare. It can be run from logout script if desired.t > C > Should this not be a system feature? Should it be some other way?k > M > Also, the system manager can set certain filename parts (usually stuff likeuM > *.tmp or *.lis or whatnot) not to be protected, so a delete of these really  > blows them away at once. > 1 > Is that a misfeature? What should it look like?e >    > N > Is the possibility of such niggling issues what the noise is about? Or have  > I missed something?   @ 	Just one thing.  We are out here at 78 chars per column and you 	have a wider width!  ? 	I think that maybe this ship has sailed.  Space isn't an issuetC 	for many of us anymore.  Maybe for the low-end this would be nice. G 	But for someone with volume shadowing and dissimilar device shadowing,.F 	maybe it becomes simple to expand a VMS volume on the fly (add largerG 	physical disk to shadowset, take out smaller disk - after copy -, add  D 	larger disk.  Someday when dissimilar shadowing shows up ... that's 	what I hope it gains :-).    F 	HSV looks real nice with storage pools and carving them out to create0 	larger physical disks of any size on the fly...  B 	Enterprise backup - TSM -, (I imagine Legatto also) gives you theG 	deletion safety net you describe.  Typically, we say in TSM keep this n@ 	file -after- deletion (Retain Only Version) for 30 days so the H 	functionality you describe is in the backup solution.  Makes sense too ; 	as you have Terabytes for backing store at the tape level.l   				Rob_   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 11:01:21 +0000c% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>aS Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimatesc8 Message-ID: <9k8o3u4s5165gnoqffa47qthujgdstovvb@4ax.com>  0 On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:28:49 -0500, David Beatty) <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote:n   >e8 >I heard about the profit announcement on CNN yesterday.4 >It would be interesting to know where the increased >revenue came from.b  E Could this be the one-off gigantic sale to the US military I've heard-> of? Will certainly be interesting to see the reported figures.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 12:27:30 GMTh4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>S Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimatesf> Message-ID: <SGW_7.13093$DG5.120623@rwcrnsc53.ops.asp.att.net>  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:9k8o3u4s5165gnoqffa47qthujgdstovvb@4ax.com...2 > On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:28:49 -0500, David Beatty+ > <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote:e >o > >A: > >I heard about the profit announcement on CNN yesterday.6 > >It would be interesting to know where the increased > >revenue came from.O > G > Could this be the one-off gigantic sale to the US military I've heardy@ > of? Will certainly be interesting to see the reported figures.  G That it will. Ironically or otherwise, stronger than anticipated peecee:D sales are said to be at least partially attributable to the apparent8 Earnings Surprise. More will become known on January 16.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 05:54:47 -0800c. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)S Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimatesu= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0201090554.5f4331e4@posting.google.com>r  v "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message news:<BCK_7.2424$fG.7966@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>...L > "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message, > news:00A07BED.BE79325F@SendSpamHere.ORG...C > > In article <YFY7PIvxc4c8MZAjnA=qxRMaiFVJ@4ax.com>, David Beatty - >  <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:n > > >w< > > >I heard about the profit announcement on CNN yesterday.8 > > >It would be interesting to know where the increased > > >revenue came from.  > > >t > > >David R. Beatty > >m9 > > Certainly not from cutting back on VMS advertisement.r > >e > I > "Nothin' from Nothin' Leaves Nothin'..." or whatever it was that Stevie  > Wonder once crooned...  F Wasn't that Billy Preston? "...You gotta have something... if you want to be with me ..."   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman  afeldman ~~/\~~ gfigroup.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 15:42:39 GMTs4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>S Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimatesn> Message-ID: <PxZ_7.14112$DG5.126717@rwcrnsc53.ops.asp.att.net>  ; "Alan E. Feldman" <SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM> wrote in messagey7 news:343f30ae.0201090554.5f4331e4@posting.google.com...aA > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message06 news:<BCK_7.2424$fG.7966@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>...F > > "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in messagea. > > news:00A07BED.BE79325F@SendSpamHere.ORG...E > > > In article <YFY7PIvxc4c8MZAjnA=qxRMaiFVJ@4ax.com>, David Beattyg/ > >  <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:a > > > >n> > > > >I heard about the profit announcement on CNN yesterday.: > > > >It would be interesting to know where the increased > > > >revenue came from.n > > > >h > > > >David R. Beatty > > >e; > > > Certainly not from cutting back on VMS advertisement.t > > >_ > >)K > > "Nothin' from Nothin' Leaves Nothin'..." or whatever it was that Stevie  > > Wonder once crooned... >eH > Wasn't that Billy Preston? "...You gotta have something... if you want > to be with me ..."  D Indeed! I stand corrected. I plead Oldtimer's Disease on this one...   cheers,    terry so+ just a soldier in a personal War on PovertyW   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 19:48:16 +0100i1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> Y Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimates Estim-5 Message-ID: <3C3C9070.6934F106@swissonline.delete.ch>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:. > 4 > "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message ...F > >CI > > Could this be the one-off gigantic sale to the US military I've heardEB > > of? Will certainly be interesting to see the reported figures. > I > That it will. Ironically or otherwise, stronger than anticipated peecee F > sales are said to be at least partially attributable to the apparent: > Earnings Surprise. More will become known on January 16.    H Let's not get too excited over the profit and the PC sales.  All may not be what it seems.   E Firstly, PCs have had $67 Billion (yes, billion) spent on them from 1 F Jan 1998 to 30 Sep 2001 and in that time they have LOST $337 million. C In the years 1998 to 2000 they had an ROI of just 0.27% and for the:F first 9 months of 2001 they lost $485 million because they cost Compaq2 just over 4% more than the revenue they generated.  G Quite frankly, if they made a profit of $1 billion in the last 3 months G then that is only a profit of $515 million for the year, on expenses of E about $16 billion  That makes an ROI of just over 3% for the year, or0F taken over 4 years that is an ROI of less than 1% in the total period.  A Enterprise had a bad 9 months to 30 Sep with profits of only $102gD million on expenses of $7.8 billion (making an ROI of 1.3%).  DuringC 1998 to 2000 (inclusive) they made almost $4.3 billion at an ROI of  12.8%.  G The big winners in 2001 have been Global Services.  They did quite wellr? to 30 Sep and I expect they have done well in the last quarter.   E Compaq's financials say that Global Services does a number of things,u? "as well as leasing and asset management services".  The 30 SepsG statement says "[Global Services] revenue also benefitted from strongerfB service attachment rates as well as higher leasing revenues due to+ growth in Compaq's leased asset portfolio".-  D Well that's no surprise.  Compaq loses Alpha and customers have someC reservations, so they look to leasing.  Compaq announces a possibleaB merger and customers have more reservations and again they adopt aE wait-and-see approach by leasing for a while (if they don't jump shiptH entirely).  Importantly too, customers who want the power of GS machinesD but have some uncertainties about the wisdom of buying will probably lease.  A (Oddly enough the 3rd quarter financials in 2001 stated a lack of1D customer confidence could be a problem to sales of high-end machinesC like these but nothing seems to have been done about this warning.)   F You would have read about some deals that Compaq stitched up with someG big clients in the last 3 months - Raytheon, American Express, CardinalDA Health, General Motors.  All of this is probably under the Global F Services umbrella and so we will see that segment doing very well.  (IA recall the comment by Capellas that Compaq was moving to become a E service provider.  Has this happened at the expense of sales in othersE areas ?  Unfortunately I didn't notice any VMS component in these bigp	 deals...)v  E Also on this subject, based on the comment from a Compaq spokespersonbG that the profit last quarter will not be a one-off I would suspect thataH these major clients are making some kind of regular payments - quarterlyE ? - and if this is the case it should help cushion Compaq from futureG losses.   A Now there's one more important thing with these deals.  If CompaquG Leasing have become involved, then the machines will probably have been5D bought from Compaq (proper) and thus may have been booked as "sales"F where the customer is the Leasing group.  Add the value of this "sale"B to the income from the leasing customer and things look impressive0 ...but haven't they really been double booked ??  G So, to summarise.  Sales up in PCs (to lose another 248 million like Q3sB would take some doing); sales probably down in the high-end due toC customer uncertainty; Global Services the big winner because of theo8 recent big deals and the uncertainties in the high-end.   F The Jan 16th announcement will be interesting in a general sense but I# expect few, if any, real surprises.-     John McLean    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:49:04 -0500/ From: "Michael A. Foley" <mikiefoley@yahoo.com>s7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!r/ Message-ID: <u3p4522p89pc22@corp.supernews.com>w  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote in message & news:BTJ_7.8405$762.73551@rwcrnsc54... > H > Sequestered somewhere in the Charlie Matco Basement of Doom is a circa 1990K > or 91 Alpha presentation which made all sorts of fabulous claims. Perhaps? I E > should have Charlie try to dig this document up... it would clearlys indicateI > the bill o' goods that the Merchant Microprocessor Mavens sold to DEC'se$ > management and Board of Directors.  J     Let us all remember that a cheap PC in 1990 dollars was $4k, not $799.C     If that stayed constant, a cheap Alpha solution would have beenn
 available.E     Unfortunately, very few predicted that one would be able to buy am%     gigahertz x86 PC for under $1000.W  K     Alpha costs just didn't scale as fast as x86 because it didn't have theR volumeJ     or the money pumped into it to make it cheaper to build. Last year you couldwH     buy a CPU/motherboard from API for about $2000 or so. That's a price thatJ     10 years ago would have made anyone drool. Nowadays? Way too expensive.     for what one can buy in x86 or even Apple.     mike   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 08:45:11 GMTh From: robert@bonomi.invalide: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <rqT_7.822$Kf.15234@ord-read.news.verio.net>  A In article <ug05gj9k2.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US> Christopher writes:tC >>>>>> On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 21:32:31 GMT, robert  ("robert") writes:jA > robert> Christopher, your statement of "ignorant talk about thes >imagined problems.."mG > robert> demonstrates *your* arrogance, ignorance, and lack of breadth- >of experience.- > > >I didn't say it, but apparently you presumed that when I saidB >"ignorant", I was referring to you.  I will defer to you on that.    L You said: "All this ignorant talk about the imagined problems with operatingK  systems whose DELETE commands simply mark the entry as "deleted", but only K  free the space of such files when a seperate EXPUNGE command are used...isA  hillarious, or sad."l  L Since I was one of the persons alluding to problems with such command pairs,M and since it was my post that you chose to apply your judgmental comments to,rN "yes", it would seem that you were referring, at least in part, to me. Occam'sI Razor would suggest that had you intended otherwise, you could/would havet& found some other post to follow up to.  M Since _my_ 'talk' was neither "ignorant", nor discussing 'imagined problems',nC it would appear that you _were_ speaking from ignorance, or malice.     C >On the subject of myself, you have no idea what my experience is, r  I True.  All I know about your experience is what you have demonstrated your; do, and _do_not_know_, as evidenced in your recent postingsC  L When you dismiss things as 'imagined', that others *have* seen happen in theN real world, there are two possible explanations: 1) you have _not_ experiencedK the item discussed, or 2) you _have_ seen it, and are lying about it.  The  I first is ignorance, or lack of experience.  The latter is something else.i  I If you assert you were not speaking from ignorance/lack of experience, I e; apologize for my erroneous interpretation of your comments.l  B >and I think you're a fool, and I suppose hiding behind pseudonyms# >makes you a cowardly one, at that.a  O You're doing it, *again*.  Fact: it's not a pseudonym.  It is a RFC-sanctioned eO form of munging an address to prevent spam.  If you replace the 'invalid' with  N the most COMmon TLD, it is a *valid* domain, and email address.  My domain. MyL mailbox.  Furthermore, that _is_ my real first and last name.   Thats a very. unusual pseudonym I'm hiding behind, isn't it?   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 02 08:50:03 GMTo From: jmfbahciv@aol.comd: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1h7nt$a36$2@bob.news.rcn.net>s  . In article <u3mhtf8c5pqd7@corp.supernews.com>,3    Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> wrote:l7 >In comp.os.vms Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote: J >:> Is that true? If so how do you delete all files called something.x and9 >:> all files called something.c at the same time on VMS?s >s >: delete *.c.*,*.x.*s >u) >I don't think that's what he was asking.h > ? >He wants to delete the *.c files that have a corresponding *.xa+ >file (the same "something" in both cases).k >i; That's easy.  What doesn't get renamed can then be deleted. 9 Well...at least on TOPS-10.  That is one advantage to not  have those pesky generations.t   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 02 08:58:22 GMTi From: jmfbahciv@aol.comt: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1h87g$a36$3@bob.news.rcn.net>n   In article  K <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201081710200.29429-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>, /    Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:-, >On 8 Jan 2002 rivie@cougar.no.domain wrote:L >> The difficulty with Unix isn't so much using '-' as the switch character  as< >> it is accepting just about bloody anything in a filename. >s) >Why do you think that this is a problem?o >aJ >You are describing an attribute of any decent filesystem.  It was a majorK >deficiency in the TOPS-10 and ITS filesystems that they were restricted to  >the characters in 6-bit ASCII.   < I disagree, Mark ;-).  But then we know each others' biases.  8 TOPS-10 didn't prevent people from being crazy about the? characters used in a filename, it just made it damned difficultd= to do so.  I thank the bit gods that the norm was so limited; > it made my packaging designs so much easier.  <GAG> Just think@ what BLISS would have done to completely mess up a CUSP package.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.k   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 02 08:59:23 GMTa From: jmfbahciv@aol.com : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1h89e$a36$4@bob.news.rcn.net>n  , In article <3C3B6BCD.3B96AD13@jetnet.ab.ca>,/    Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:h >Mark Crispin wrote: >> y. >> On 8 Jan 2002 rivie@cougar.no.domain wrote:D >> > The difficulty with Unix isn't so much using '-' as the switch  character as> >> > it is accepting just about bloody anything in a filename. >>  + >> Why do you think that this is a problem?e >> iG >> You are describing an attribute of any decent filesystem.  It was a s majortK >> deficiency in the TOPS-10 and ITS filesystems that they were restricted h to! >> the characters in 6-bit ASCII.b >> s
 >> -- Mark --d >> a" >> http://staff.washington.edu/mrcI >> Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.  >uD >I think file names should be a..zA..Z0..9_  Why else would you needE >more? As for white space and file name length I think this is a filed >name not essay. >e8 No,no [emoticon spanks poster's hands]  NO LOWER CASE.    ( Heh.  That should stir 'em up even more.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.w   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 02 09:05:59 GMTs From: jmfbahciv@aol.com.: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1h8lq$a36$5@bob.news.rcn.net>.  . In article <ug05gj9k2.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>,7    Christopher Stacy <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US> wrote:fC >>>>>> On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 21:32:31 GMT, robert  ("robert") writes: K > robert> Christopher, your statement of "ignorant talk about the imagined   problems.."-K > robert> demonstrates *your* arrogance, ignorance, and lack of breadth of < experience.n >t> >I didn't say it, but apparently you presumed that when I saidB >"ignorant", I was referring to you.  I will defer to you on that.C >On the subject of myself, you have no idea what my experience is, DB >and I think you're a fool, and I suppose hiding behind pseudonyms# >makes you a cowardly one, at that.  > = Well, this kind of rhetoric is a first on the PDP-10 group.   < When we disagree we yell at each other about the _technical_3 religion.  It was un-gentlemanly to get personal.     > You must have too much VMS influence.  [impish emoticon here].   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.r   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 02 09:08:38 GMTh From: jmfbahciv@aol.comm: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1h8qp$a36$6@bob.news.rcn.net>   8 In article <rqT_7.822$Kf.15234@ord-read.news.verio.net>,    robert@bonomi.invalid wrote:a <snip attempt to train>n  7 >You're doing it, *again*.  Fact: it's not a pseudonym.a   <snip>  ? Isn't this amazing?  I've been accused of hiding, too.  The wayN= our customers knew us and the way we addressed each other waseA by our initials.  What is going on with kids^Wnewbies these days?t   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.c   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 02 08:46:51 GMTr From: jmfbahciv@aol.comr: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1h7hu$a36$1@bob.news.rcn.net>n  8 In article <pisl3uskr35f10oj5bt2885n1lkprpmnoj@4ax.com>,)    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:09 >On Tue, 08 Jan 02 08:38:54 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:e >a > > >>Oh, no.  Not those.  They sucked.  Not only was the keyboard? >>bad and the print awful but you could never see what you justo< >>typed.  Obviously, it was a terminal designed by males who >eF >I remember now. You had to stop typing for a few seconds and then the+ >printhead moved out of the way  Annoying. @  ; It also reduced typing speed.  "I think I just made a typo.n: Let us look and see...wait...wait...wait...nope. Now I can resume but...where was I?"    ; And the guys hated them for debugging.  DDT format was verya: terse and we were used to immediate results after typing a; query.  So another technique was the one that used up a lote7 of paper.  Type the slash then advance the paper to seet8 what got printed because waiting for the damned carriage* control was enough to raise stress levels.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.r   ------------------------------  " Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:21:06 GMT3 From: Christopher Stacy <cstacy@spacy.Boston.MA.US>l: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <uzo3niukt.fsf@spacy.Boston.MA.US>  A Some people seemed to be theorizing at length about how operatingj@ systems that had a certain feature could not work right.  I saidE that those were ignorant comments, based on my personal of experiencet? (spanning 21 years) with such operating systems (including oness# that they probably never heard of.)e  @ You decided that this was specifically about you, and wrote back> that I was ignorant and had a "lack of breadth of experience".  < Whether or not you are ignorant about the technical matters ; originally being discussed, it's no matter of opinion aboutF? whether you're ignorant about my personal history, yet you feelF= compelled to make authoritative derogatory comments about it.c  @ I dunno, I started programming in 1973, and since then have doneB lots of operating system design and development, and lots of otherH system, network, application, and research programming; also done systemK management for a number of different kinds (educational/research, military, F commercial, industrial) of large and smaller sites; programmed in manyG different languages, and probably used (at least a little) almost every"H operating system worth mentioning in the last 29 years... I sure as hellD don't know nearly everything, but I think I can fairly be consideredC to have been around the block and have both some depth and breadth.-  C I suppose I must lack experience relative to you: please elaborate.r  <   robert> Limiting EXPUNGE (or equivalent) to user-initiatedB   robert> *only*, is a 'luxury'.  It requires additional resourcesA   robert> to support. In systems of the '70s, and early '80s, the B   robert> incremental cost _was_ "non-trivial".  A user transiting@   robert> from a system with the luxuries to one without them --?   robert> even if the hardware and O/S was the same, was in for    robert> some "rude suprises".i  B If you think I was referring specifically to you as being ignorantB about how such systems work and how users behave on such operatingG systems, and wish to rectify that: you could expound upon the operatingaH systems that you must know I was referring to, and how many such systemsE and how many users and sites you managed for how long, and how havingsF this feature did not work very well.   Alternatively, if it's not yourE own experience, it would be fine to cite some published case studies.   C That would tend to counter my original posting, where I merely saidi? that those features worked out very well, and that people were e9 ignorant if they imagined that it could not have been so.   ? In particular, since you've decided that I was referring to the5? paragraph cited above, please describe your specific experiencea@ with a base of users transitioning from an operating system that? supported file-delete-but-only-ever-expunge-on-user-command andh= had lots of disk space to go with it, to one that was exactly > the same except with less luxurious disk space.  What systems > are you thinking of, and what "rude surprises" would they get?  > My experience was that they'd just be out of disk space a lot,> which was never a surprise on any computer back in those days,< regardless of what kind of features the file system sported.  F If your contention is merely that users who come from better operatingG systems onto worse operating systems may become confused and frustratedoF because they're predisposed to expecting things to work well, then I'dE have to agree 100%. (They even do that when the operating systems are H approximately "as good" or as crappy as each other, but just different.)  >   robert> In general, _most_ operating systems "worked great".  F Actually, in general, I'd say most operating systems are kinda crappy:D they fail randomly, they have terrible user interfaces, and lack theB basic functionality needed to allow users to get work done without> constantly having to screw around or get totally screwed over.  A Finally: You are right that I failed to recognize your anti-spam a@ email address: you are in fact not trying to hide your identity . that way, and I apologize for that suggestion.   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 02 11:25:13 GMTo From: jmfbahciv@aol.comc: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1hgqr$507$2@bob.news.rcn.net>a  + In article <a1f9lk$q4v$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,o5    bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: + >In article <3C3A47F6.4D37E7D4@Empire.Net>,a+ > John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> writes:e/ >|> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote (highly excerpted):  >|> " >|> When I typed on an ASR36, .... >|>  >|> John Sauter teased:e >|> ? >|> What's an ASR36?  Maybe you mean an ASR35, the "battleship"e= >|> teletype?  You couldn't have meant the LA36, its keys alll >|> sounded alike. >uC >As long as we're getting nostalgic here, my first hardcopy printer ! >at home was a Lorenz LO-15.  :-)i  @ <grin>  Sounds like a pill for sore throats.  ;-)  Just remember@ that, if I can't keep my ASRs straight, I have no hope for other vendors.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.a   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 13:09:41 GMTb( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1hfel$iv6$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>i  2 In article <wwlmf8m8dj.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>,1 Jim Thomas  <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> wrote:eL >They way I read the spec, the two DELETEX's need to be together down at theK >bottom.  This deletes all .c files, not only those that have a matching .x    for i in *.c do   j="`basename "$i" .c`.x"   if [ -f "./$j" ]   then rm "./$j" "./$i"i   fi done   -- n@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)A   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 13:13:41 GMTu( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1hfm5$j85$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>8  , In article <3C3B6BCD.3B96AD13@jetnet.ab.ca>,- Ben Franchuk  <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:sD >I think file names should be a..zA..Z0..9_  Why else would you need >more?  A Well, my surname name is "da Silva". Not "daSilva" or "da-Silva"..  & What about someone like "Ren Gring"?  J I wish Bell labs had been able to productise Plan 9. You could have a fileH name that contained latin, cyrillic, kana, and aramaic components if you wanted.    -- ,@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 07:55:59 -0600l- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <sEXGJbLGZSav@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  W In article <vNI_7.809$Kf.14422@ord-read.news.verio.net>, reobert@bonomi.invalid writes:y > M > How can it be "consistent", when it's valid in some instances, and 'illegall > syntax' in others?  =    The documented consistent behaviour is different for input F    and output files.  One could take the point of view that wildcards H    always mean "look for existing files for input", and "make new file" H    for  output, whether the output file already has an existing version 
    or not.  H    But the distinction is not DCL's, it's yours.  To DCL both are simplyB    lists of file names.  Whether or not they exist is a UNIX shell@    thing, since it has to look up exsiting files.  DCL does not.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 07:57:31 -0600u- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <6ZCIUyeB14NM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <OF9516AAB1.26253833-ON85256B3B.007CDD4B@acml.com>, William_Bochnik@acml.com writes:  > > > This is like arguing over red versus blue with someone who'sC > color blind - he has "his" definitions of things and will not see  > any other point of view. >   F    Which is why I already asked him how long he wants to keep this up.     Time for the kill file again.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 08:00:45 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)u: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <l7YUUYrrH6Jp@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  ] In article <a1gb62$1ocb$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: O > In article <slrna3msvs.1dl.rivie@cougar.no.domain>,  <ivie@cc.usu.edu> wrote:lI >>Unix isn't really any better. There is no way -- from inspection of thedG >>command-line only -- to determine whether or not something is even a iH >>filename. If there were, rm wouldn't get confused when you try to hand" >>it filenames beginning with '-'. > L > But there is a way to ensure that something is a filename: qualify it with	 > a path.   ?    What's in a path but filenames?   Is "/a b" one file or two?i   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 08:03:05 -0600n- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <8JGczAE44eCr@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  P In article <PEL_7.23$vb1.2545@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:  > > Using the standard argument mechanism, the '-t' is a switch.  B    There is no standard argument mechansim.  If there was tar cxv &    would not be the same as tar -cxv .   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 14:12:47 GMTt( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1hj4v$l0s$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>r  V In article <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201081913020.29726-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,- Mark Crispin  <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:tD >VMS won't let you make a file called "*.C" under any circumstances? >o/ >Proof positive that VMS is a piece of garbage.d  J Christ, Mark, that's like saying that the fact that UNIX can't make a fileI called "23/07/1960" means that it's a piece of garbage. I prefer the UNIXm2 approach, but I can't discount the VMS way either.  K It's like security. UNIX gives you the tools to build a security model thathI suits your environment. VMS provides a security model that is designed to I suit a large number of environments. Which is better? Well, that depends:sE at Berkeley the ability to create "group masters" so that faculty hadoF delegated control over their class accounts was critical. On the otherD hand, VMS has the advantage that you have the same model everywhere.   -- .@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)@   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 14:17:59 GMTg( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1hjen$l4c$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>s  I In article <xGQ_7.346350$W8.12957707@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,h8 David Thompson <david.thompson1@worldnet.att.net> wrote:+ >Peter da Silva <peter@taronga.com> wrote : I >> The whole programming model the shell uses is gluing together external J >> programs. It's a dataflow engine, not a traditional procedural language >> like DCL.  : >Shells have (also) included control-flow constructs since  >nearly the "beginning of time".  H Well, since the Bourne shell in Version 7, and the Berkeley C shell at aG few Version 6 systems at UCB (I don't know if it was widely distributed < before 2BSD, it might have been on the first Berkeley tape).  6 In Version 6 and earlier those were separate programs.  > >> You might as well complain that Lisp doesn't have a "goto".  ' >Um, Common LISP _does_ have goto.  <G>o  2 I don't *do* "Common Lisp", like I don't *do* C++.   -- C@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)>   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 14:38:48 GMTu( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1hklo$lo2$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>h  3 In article <l7YUUYrrH6Jp@eisner.encompasserve.org>,n. Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:M >> But there is a way to ensure that something is a filename: qualify it withe
 >> a path.  @ >   What's in a path but filenames?   Is "/a b" one file or two?  K "fred" is a filename. "./fred" or /home/peter/fred" are qualified by paths.t  C Whether "/a b" is one file or two depends on whether the quotes are. part of the example or not.e  
 	ls "/a b"   andt 	ls /a b  # obviously refer to different files.l  I But what I'm talking about is the point of view of the script author. TheS string:e   	"./$filename"  L will always pass a single atomic argument to the program from any UNIX shellH (though apparently Perl doesn't always make that guarantee, which reallyJ boggles me), and will not be interpreted as an option by any UNIX softwareG I know of. And that's a lot, I've used some truly oddball UNIX-inspireds systems over the past 20 years.o  J It *would* cause a problem on Cromemco's multi-user CP/M-compatible systemI "Cromix" when running Microsoft's "M80" CP/M-based macro assembler, whichnI used "/" as an option character. Cromix supported VMS-style logical namestH to get around this. For example, you would typically have your librariesC in "/usr/lib", so to pass that to Microsoft's linker you'd do this:g   	assign M: /usr/libg
 	l80 /L=M:  F (It's been 20 years since I used L80, sorry if I got the syntax wrong)  H I wish Microsoft had paid attention to Cromix. A super-root with assignsD instead of drive letters worked a lot better than using "\" for pathG separators when you were trying (as Microsoft was at the time of DOS 2)e to merge Xenix and MS-DOS.  E But Cromix is rather a special case, since it had to deal with legacyuI DEC-style syntax in a UNIX-style system. I rather liked it. I do like thet- idea of VMS-style logicals as an enhancement.-   -- -@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)s   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 14:47:56 GMTt( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1hl6s$m33$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>g  3 In article <8JGczAE44eCr@eisner.encompasserve.org>,t. Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:Q >In article <PEL_7.23$vb1.2545@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: ? >> Using the standard argument mechanism, the '-t' is a switch.-  C >   There is no standard argument mechansim.  If there was tar cxv o' >   would not be the same as tar -cxv .h  9 Bob, it's standard. That doesn't mean it's automatic [1].n  J It's like, oh, there's a standard form factor for car radios. That doesn'tH mean you won't find a few cars that require non-standard ones. There's aK standard size for Christmas lights, but I've still got a whole box of sparehJ bulbs of different sizes. RS-232 is a standard, and you don't want to know6 how many special cables I've got in the computer room.  H [1] One might in fact say that since automatics are now more common than<     standards, that standard transmissions are non-standard.   -- e@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:55:09 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>o: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <xKY_7.46$vb1.10144@news1.iquest.net>g  [ "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message news:9JAN200200163940@gerg.tamu.edu... 1 > Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes... - > }On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Bill Gunshannon wrote:9& > }> On 8 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:F > }> >    VMS never let us do silly things like make a *.C, even ODS-5E > }> >    won't.  I'm still hoping COE won't, but I recall POSIX did.>F > }> I would guess, based on what I know of COE at this point, that it, > }> will require it to be a valid filename. > } F > }VMS won't let you make a file called "*.C" under any circumstances? > } 1 > }Proof positive that VMS is a piece of garbage.t > } 
 > }-- Mark --  > 9 > Your favorite OS will let you make a file called "*.C"?a >p: They were discussing the inability of some broken OSes not9 supporting full upper/lower case.   Even TOPS10 supportedy> the creation of the filename "*.C" literally if you ignore theB upper/lower case issue.   "*" could easily be put into a filename.   > / > Proof positive that it is a piece of garbage.m > 5 No.   Broken OSes cannot handle upper and lower case.,   John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:00:21 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>t: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <pPY_7.47$vb1.10190@news1.iquest.net>f  [ <robert@bonomi.invalid> wrote in message news:FRR_7.819$Kf.15194@ord-read.news.verio.net...rO > In article <slrna3msvs.1dl.rivie@cougar.no.domain>,  <ivie@cc.usu.edu> wrote:t > >robert@bonomi.invalid wrote:tR > >> And, that there is *NO*WAY* -- from inspection of the command-line only -- toS > >> determine which interpretation applies, to which instance.  Specific knowledgeb, > >> of the particular context is required.  > >>  S > >> The semantics of the wildcard construct depend utterly on the context in whichv > >> it is employed. > > J > >Unix isn't really any better. There is no way -- from inspection of theH > >command-line only -- to determine whether or not something is even a I > >filename. If there were, rm wouldn't get confused when you try to hand # > >it filenames beginning with '-'.  > J > From inspection of the command-line only, one *can* determine _how_ the N > wildcard expansion, presuming it is enabled, that is, will be done.  '*.foo'O > _always_ expands to an -ordered-list- of pre-existant filenames matching the  L > pattern.  Regardless of positon on the line, regardless of the command or 
 > context. > J > Admittdly, _many_ Unix commands can get 'confused' when passed filenamesG > that 'look like' other optional parameters that would preceede actualrG > filenames on the command-line.    probably the worst "abuse" of that bM > characteristic is a directory containing logfiles -- named "log_yymmdd.hh".rC > somebody added two zero-length files, 'data.archive', and  '-uf'.v" > They then archived with "tar *". > J The above aren't NORMAL uses of the system, and one has to go out of theirJ way to create filenames like '-uf.'   Weird filenames can be created underO different OSes, and the effects of the wierd filenames can be upleasant.  UndereK DEC OSes, deleting a filename literally '*.c' could cause some trouble, andnS perhaps unexpected results.   I agree tough that the effects of the very consistantpF shell behavior, given uncommon and wierd filenames could work weirdly.  J DCL BY DEFAULT has inconsistant parsing of wildcards in differing contexts as NORMAL behavior.    John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:03:59 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <PSY_7.48$vb1.10237@news1.iquest.net>e  h "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:sEXGJbLGZSav@eisner.encompasserve.org...Y > In article <vNI_7.809$Kf.14422@ord-read.news.verio.net>, reobert@bonomi.invalid writes:  > > O > > How can it be "consistent", when it's valid in some instances, and 'illegaln > > syntax' in others? > ? >    The documented consistent behaviour is different for inputaH >    and output files.  One could take the point of view that wildcards J >    always mean "look for existing files for input", and "make new file" J >    for  output, whether the output file already has an existing version  >    or not. > J >    But the distinction is not DCL's, it's yours.  To DCL both are simply >    lists of file names.  >dI Nope, the second list of filenames in 'rename' isn't a LIST OF FILENAMES,-I but is a prototype of a specification of a new set of names.   This isn'ti  the same as a list of filenames.   John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:05:16 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>f: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <0UY_7.49$vb1.10144@news1.iquest.net>.  h "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:l7YUUYrrH6Jp@eisner.encompasserve.org..._ > In article <a1gb62$1ocb$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes: Q > > In article <slrna3msvs.1dl.rivie@cougar.no.domain>,  <ivie@cc.usu.edu> wrote:tK > >>Unix isn't really any better. There is no way -- from inspection of thetI > >>command-line only -- to determine whether or not something is even a  J > >>filename. If there were, rm wouldn't get confused when you try to hand$ > >>it filenames beginning with '-'. > > N > > But there is a way to ensure that something is a filename: qualify it with > > a path.- > A >    What's in a path but filenames?   Is "/a b" one file or two?o >PM This was in the context of '-'.   In general, as you quoted the above, and ifsP you use it literally, it is ONE filename.   Note that the way that you are using& the quotes is just like the shell :-).   John t   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 15:37:30 GMTn1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)t: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC: Message-ID: <a1ho3q$7du$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  Q In message <pPY_7.47$vb1.10190@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: K >DCL BY DEFAULT has inconsistant parsing of wildcards in differing contextslK                                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^- >as NORMAL behavior.  O There's nothing wrong with parsing wildcards differently in different contexts,sJ it's only a problem if you parse them different in the same context.  WhenM you say "show queue hp*", you aren't looking up any files, the context at thek, point where it sees "hp*" is for queue name.  M DCL doesn't process wildcard characters at all other than the cases where therM command tables give it hint that a wildcard character is inappropriate insidek a particular parameter.h  I The underlying assumption about all this consistency stuff is that peopleaI are going to look a command line the way a unix shell does, which is true D for people writing shell commands.  If you use DCL, you are going to' look at command lines the way DCL does.t      < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929- Ohio State University        |      Internet:0L 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.c   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:11:33 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <VZY_7.50$vb1.10006@news1.iquest.net>t  h "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:8JGczAE44eCr@eisner.encompasserve.org...R > In article <PEL_7.23$vb1.2545@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: > @ > > Using the standard argument mechanism, the '-t' is a switch. > D >    There is no standard argument mechansim.  If there was tar cxv ( >    would not be the same as tar -cxv . > K There are several exceptions to the rule.   This is historical practice andsG one major reason for the creation of getopt.   There is some historical:G compatibility (where dd is probably the most egregious.), but I haven't:J written anything that parses args that uses the techniques of 'dd'.   NoteJ that it is MUCH HARDER to use the 'dd' type rules rather than just use the builtin mechnanism.m  F I am sure that on DCL systems you can get direct access to the commandI line, and use non-standard parsing, can't you?   I'd hate to use a systemdI that wouldn't allow for some bypassing the default parsing, because there I are SOME CASES where that might be useful.   Perhaps a limited JCL schemeiG where you have to add // in front of every command to show 'discipline' B would make those who love modal mechanisms much happier :-).   DCL is already modal enough :-).  H This doesn't argue against the 'standard argument mechanism', because itK was created to address issues of switch incompatibility.   People really dor use it also.   John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:15:41 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <N1Z_7.51$vb1.10308@news1.iquest.net>   a "Peter da Silva" <peter@taronga.com> wrote in message news:a1hj4v$l0s$1@citadel.in.taronga.com...tX > In article <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201081913020.29726-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,/ > Mark Crispin  <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote: F > >VMS won't let you make a file called "*.C" under any circumstances? > > 1 > >Proof positive that VMS is a piece of garbage.r > L > Christ, Mark, that's like saying that the fact that UNIX can't make a fileK > called "23/07/1960" means that it's a piece of garbage. I prefer the UNIX24 > approach, but I can't discount the VMS way either. > F For people who need something like a date based name a filename calledH MM/DD/YYYY is actually quite reasonable on UNIX, where subdirs are used.  G In fact, a long time ago (when replacing a PDP11 with a 486/33 provding H over 100* the performance), I replaced a datafile logged by the PDP11 byI text residing in a directory format:  datatype/MM/DD/YYYY.   This allowediH for non-programmatic access to raw data in the worst case, unlike in theE opaque PDP11 scheme that would have been much uglier and slower undero RMS or a home-built scheme.t   John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:52:15 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>h: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <is__7.56$vb1.10800@news1.iquest.net>   > "David Jones" <JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu> wrote in message4 news:a1ho3q$7du$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...S > In message <pPY_7.47$vb1.10190@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:sM > >DCL BY DEFAULT has inconsistant parsing of wildcards in differing contextsiM >                                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^s > >as NORMAL behavior. > Q > There's nothing wrong with parsing wildcards differently in different contexts,aF > it's only a problem if you parse them different in the same context. >rQ That is a matter of YOUR definition (and probably those who like the inconsistantyO parsing of wildcards depending on context.)   If you want to use a wild card as-T a 'list of files' or 'expression specifying a target name transformation', then that9 defacto demonstrates that the semantics are inconsistant.w  N Frankly, I used to like the DCL scheme also, and wrote a DCL before RSX11M hadR one normally available (from scratch, as a CLI.)   After that, I learned the shellJ approach, and was still biased towards the 'DCL' approach.   Even with theP skeptcism and preference for the 'DCL' inconsistancy, I found the shell approachW to be 'cleaner'.   Eventually, as I learned (at a technology, not an engineering level)C+ the relative advantages, the shell won out.o  O It has been many years since that happened, and the full context of my thinkinglR back in the early '80's is hard to re-construct, but the shell approach has prettyJ much taken over, and is VERY consistant.   There are indeed abnormal casesH where both schemes can be tripped up, but IMO, consistant semantics win.  L If DCL 'rename' was well designed and consistant, it would be something likeP this:   rename /newext:x *.c.   Perhaps the transformation wouldn't be specifiedS in the same way as a filespec.   There is a BIG difference between a transformationB and 'names'.   John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:05:19 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>2: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <QO__7.452$5Y4.13543@news.cpqcorp.net>   JD wrote in message ...o >@G >I am sure that on DCL systems you can get direct access to the command.J >line, and use non-standard parsing, can't you?   I'd hate to use a systemJ >that wouldn't allow for some bypassing the default parsing, because thereJ >are SOME CASES where that might be useful.   Perhaps a limited JCL schemeH >where you have to add // in front of every command to show 'discipline'C >would make those who love modal mechanisms much happier :-).   DCLt >is already modal enough :-).  >     B In point of fact, to use the VMS command line parsing requires theC application to make calls to parse the command line.  It isn't sometJ automatic magic.  From any language you can always make the call to simply, get the command line, and parse it yourself.  L The C language handles the command line in the standard way, giving you argvH and argc... of course, it does do some silly but understandable things -H like lowercasing the entire line (except for quoted portions).  And even1 that can be gotten around in recent VMS versions.m   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:23:59 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>r: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <4W__7.57$vb1.11308@news1.iquest.net>x  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:QO__7.452$5Y4.13543@news.cpqcorp.net... >  > JD wrote in message ...0 > >:I > >I am sure that on DCL systems you can get direct access to the command L > >line, and use non-standard parsing, can't you?   I'd hate to use a systemL > >that wouldn't allow for some bypassing the default parsing, because thereL > >are SOME CASES where that might be useful.   Perhaps a limited JCL schemeJ > >where you have to add // in front of every command to show 'discipline'E > >would make those who love modal mechanisms much happier :-).   DCL  > >is already modal enough :-).  > >a >a >nD > In point of fact, to use the VMS command line parsing requires theE > application to make calls to parse the command line.  It isn't somelL > automatic magic.  From any language you can always make the call to simply. > get the command line, and parse it yourself. >eE Apparently, we have been discussing the default behaviors and styles.t  ' BTW, why does it do the LC translation?$   John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:23:04 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>r: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <t3%_7.455$5Y4.13469@news.cpqcorp.net>  < JD wrote in message <4W__7.57$vb1.11308@news1.iquest.net>... > A >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messager- >news:QO__7.452$5Y4.13543@news.cpqcorp.net...a >> >> JD wrote in message ... >> >J >> >I am sure that on DCL systems you can get direct access to the commandF >> >line, and use non-standard parsing, can't you?   I'd hate to use a systemG >> >that wouldn't allow for some bypassing the default parsing, becausee therezF >> >are SOME CASES where that might be useful.   Perhaps a limited JCL schemeK >> >where you have to add // in front of every command to show 'discipline'cF >> >would make those who love modal mechanisms much happier :-).   DCL  >> >is already modal enough :-). >> > >> >>E >> In point of fact, to use the VMS command line parsing requires theyF >> application to make calls to parse the command line.  It isn't someF >> automatic magic.  From any language you can always make the call to simply/ >> get the command line, and parse it yourself.i >>F >Apparently, we have been discussing the default behaviors and styles. >q( >BTW, why does it do the LC translation? >e    L To undo the upper case conversion that the command line processor did beforeH it handed it to C :-(   Of course, you can now get the actual mixed caseF command line in recent VMS & C implementations with the correct setup.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 17:25:38 GMT ( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1huei$qvb$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>l  N In article <is__7.56$vb1.10800@news1.iquest.net>, JD <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:M >If DCL 'rename' was well designed and consistant, it would be something like Q >this:   rename /newext:x *.c.   Perhaps the transformation wouldn't be specifiedwE >in the same way as a filespec.   There is a BIG difference between ap >transformation 
 >and 'names'.p  K The best rename I've seen had this kind of syntax. I don't know the detailsoH because (as I mentioned) a complex rename is just normally not needed on UNIX.e   	rename '*.c' '%1.x'  ' That way you could also do things like:l   	rename 'demo*.h' 'old%%'o   or   	rename 'c_*.h' 'class_%1.h'   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)n   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 17:27:14 GMT1( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1huhi$r0n$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>>  N In article <N1Z_7.51$vb1.10308@news1.iquest.net>, JD <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:G >For people who need something like a date based name a filename callednI >MM/DD/YYYY is actually quite reasonable on UNIX, where subdirs are used.m  J 1. Unfortunately, your Mac user who is used to having files with that name)    isn't going to consider that suitable.y   2. YYYY/MM/DD, *please*.   -- m@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:43:36 -0500 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <tc%_7.58$vb1.11423@news1.iquest.net>t  a "Peter da Silva" <peter@taronga.com> wrote in message news:a1huhi$r0n$1@citadel.in.taronga.com...eP > In article <N1Z_7.51$vb1.10308@news1.iquest.net>, JD <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:I > >For people who need something like a date based name a filename calledtK > >MM/DD/YYYY is actually quite reasonable on UNIX, where subdirs are used.. > L > 1. Unfortunately, your Mac user who is used to having files with that name+ >    isn't going to consider that suitable.e >  > 2. YYYY/MM/DD, *please*. > O Oh yeah, that is exactly what I did :-).   Of course, that was for ordering andnN organization reasons...   I think that my suggestion was the result of a brain fart...e   John   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jan 2002 10:23:50 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>E: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <qhhepvgz7t.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  - Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes:pE > I think file names should be a..zA..Z0..9_  Why else would you need. > more?Y  $ What, you're not going to allow "."?   ------------------------------    Date: 09 Jan 2002 10:25:34 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>:: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <qhd70jgz4x.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  * peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:L > I wish Bell labs had been able to productise Plan 9. You could have a fileJ > name that contained latin, cyrillic, kana, and aramaic components if you	 > wanted.r  A I think you can do that using NTFS.  They use Unicode file names.   E I don't know any reason why you can't do it on Unix, for that matter. ? You can use Unicode with UTF8 encoding.  Isn't that actually inu common use?o   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:26:15 -0500( From: "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <SV%_7.61$vb1.11784@news1.iquest.net>.  8 "Ben Franchuk" <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote in message& news:3C3B6BCD.3B96AD13@jetnet.ab.ca... > Mark Crispin wrote:  > >d/ > > On 8 Jan 2002 rivie@cougar.no.domain wrote:LQ > > > The difficulty with Unix isn't so much using '-' as the switch character asi? > > > it is accepting just about bloody anything in a filename.- > >-, > > Why do you think that this is a problem? > > M > > You are describing an attribute of any decent filesystem.  It was a majortN > > deficiency in the TOPS-10 and ITS filesystems that they were restricted to" > > the characters in 6-bit ASCII. > >w > > -- Mark -- > >.# > > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc1J > > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. > E > I think file names should be a..zA..Z0..9_  Why else would you need.F > more? As for white space and file name length I think this is a file > name not essay.  >> Even TOPS10 allowed '*'.   John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:36:59 -0000/ From: "Adam Price" <adam+usenet@pappnase.co.uk>l: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECA Message-ID: <e50%7.3125$X87.587797@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>   e "Michael Zarlenga" <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> wrote in message news:u3mhtf8c5pqd7@corp.supernews.com...'8 > In comp.os.vms Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote:K > :> Is that true? If so how do you delete all files called something.x and : > :> all files called something.c at the same time on VMS? >- > : delete *.c.*,*.x.* >a* > I don't think that's what he was asking. >-@ > He wants to delete the *.c files that have a corresponding *.x, > file (the same "something" in both cases). >rA Nah nothing so complex, I just don't know DCL and was curious how1	 to do it.> No I know no big deal. Adam   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 08:24:11 -0600i- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > Subject: Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V3 Message-ID: <Ydn+kGySLoG8@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  \ In article <3C3BAB2F.56BB97A9@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Mark Berryman wrote:D >> The following NCL commands will create the flight object for you: >> h7 >> CREATE NODE 0 SESSION CONTROL APPLICATION FLT$SERVERs >> d? >> SET NODE 0 SESSION CONTROL APPLICATION FLT$SERVER ADDRESSES a > G > Does the NCP "emulator" in the decnet-5 allow one to create objects ?c  H    Not in my experience.  The NCP translator will get you commands that @    come pretty close, but I got closer studying the existing NCL     commands that create objects.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 08:22:50 -0600k- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i> Subject: Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V3 Message-ID: <tRtdn5bFYT3n@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <3C3B1033.3AFF8B70@Mvb.Saic.Com>, Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes:  > Bob Koehler wrote:C > The following NCL commands will create the flight object for you:- > 6 > CREATE NODE 0 SESSION CONTROL APPLICATION FLT$SERVER > ? > SET NODE 0 SESSION CONTROL APPLICATION FLT$SERVER ADDRESSES =  > {NAME=FLT$SERVER} -  > ,CLIENT  = - > ,INCOMING ALIAS = TRUE - > ,INCOMING PROXY = FALSE -l > ,OUTGOING ALIAS = FALSE -n > ,OUTGOING PROXY = TRUE - > ,NODE SYNONYM = TRUE - > ,USER NAME = "FLT$SERVER" -4+ > ,IMAGE NAME = "SYS$SYSTEM:FLT$SERVER.COM"w  9    That's almost what I had.  I'll try this.  I was usingtD    address = {number = 0} based on the NCP commands that shiped with6    flight and the NCL commands that implemented PHONE.  
    Thanks.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 17:46:18 +0100nK From: pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.64.40) > Subject: Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V! Message-ID: <NwvjJ$1Iza9M@gaelic>s  - In article <3C3B1033.3AFF8B70@Mvb.Saic.Com>,  2 Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote: >> l > [ text deleted ] > C >>    That's what the TV set is for.  When I want to have fun I tryiD >>    building StarOffice on my Alpha or getting flight simulator to >>    run via Phase V. > C > The following NCL commands will create the flight object for you:e [...]   L And don't forget to download add-on Worlds and Hangars available on the DECW" archive (http://decwarch.free.fr).  ! Glad to see some Flight users ...a   Patricks --O ===============================================================================tN pmoreau@ath.cena.fr  (CENA)     ______      ___   _           (Patrick MOREAU)4 moreau_p@decus.fr (DECUS)       / /   /     / /|  /|J CENA/Athis-Mons FRANCE         / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/            http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================h   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 12:27:21 -0600e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)C> Subject: Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V3 Message-ID: <6yvh09+5SpB6@eisner.encompasserve.org>   o In article <NwvjJ$1Iza9M@gaelic>, pmoreau@ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.64.40) writes:r  N > And don't forget to download add-on Worlds and Hangars available on the DECW$ > archive (http://decwarch.free.fr).  F    So that's where they are.  I could of swore I saw a B-29 at a DECUSF    symposium and couldn't find it in Flight 3.1, nor at ftp.decus.org.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 10:03:10 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>: Subject: Re: how to display the nodename in the dcl prompt) Message-ID: <3C3C155E.CD7DFAD8@127.0.0.1>e   Michael Zarlenga wrote:  > - > WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote:rC > : I would strongly discourage the use of a triple chevron as part-9 > : of one's prompt to avoid confusion with console mode.0 > B > : Not to mention that this will make certain monitoring packages@ > : do really ugly things that will cause you to get awakened at' > : times when you don't want to do so.h > A > Can you expound on the paragraph above?  Why would any s/w care- > about the user's prompt?  G Most monitoring packages work by performing text pattern matching. e.g.DG the CA stuff. Hook up a lead to the console line, and you teach it whati to look for and now to respond.   E Seeing >>> on the console usually means you have a halted system, and @ William has obviously observed similar to others that *anything*2 throwing >>> on the console can be misinterpreted.  + e.g. Consider the effect of this broadcast:t  7 New mail on node XYZ from ABC::FRED "<<< READ THIS >>>"e  ( Three chevrons === halted system, right?  H Of mention, Robomon from Heroix works in a different way, it effectively> 'peeks' in system space using a process. While it may have theE disadvantage that a halted system cannot report on itself, Robomon islD quite capable of handshaking between systems, and another system canH raise the alarm of one gone AWOL. It is also therefore immune from those? using the console as a log in, and REPLY/DISABLEing to stop thep 'annoying messages'.   -- c( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 04:34:39 -0800y0 From: chris_doran@postmaster.co.uk (Chris Doran): Subject: Re: how to display the nodename in the dcl prompt= Message-ID: <948f0720.0201090434.51122331@posting.google.com>a  k Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote in message news:<3C3BB3F5.332A6D0A@firstdbasource.com>...  > Chris Doran wrote: > > c > > "XL" <itsafish@freeler.nl> wrote in message news:<a1fj76$oic$1@newswriterENV1.svr.pol.co.uk>...  > > > Hi there,  > > >aP > > > I am managing some vms systems of which the older ones which I haven't setG > > > up display the nodename in the commandline after logging in. Like  > > > nodename>>>tN > > > I guess this is any kind of logical I have to set. But which one. And if" > > > not, I haven't got any clue. > > > How do I do this?e > > 0 > > $ SET PROMPT="''F$GETSYI(""NODENAME"")'>>> "I > > somewhere in SYLOGIN.COM (if you want it for everyone). Personally, I.J > > prefer not to waste space on my command lines and just use a different* > > single-character prompt for each node. > > 	 > > Chrisn > * > Then you would really hate my procedure: > $!!   SD.COM& > $!!   set default command procedure  > $!!   sd :== @dev:[dir]sd.come8 > $!!   Syntax:   sd [dir]  or   sd .dir or sd dev:[dir]5 > $!!        note: "sd .dir" does not have "[" or "]"r > $set noverify " > $  IF "''P1'" .EQS. "" THEN EXIT! > $  POS1 = F$LOCATE("[","''P1'"):! > $  POS2 = F$LOCATE(".","''P1'")h! > $  POS3 = F$LOCATE("]","''P1'")o > $  LEN = F$LENGTH("''P1'"), > $  IF POS1 .EQS. POS2 THEN GOTO CONDITION2/ > $  IF POS3 .EQS. LEN - 1 THEN GOTO CONDITION2i > $  SET DEF ['P1] > $  GOTO EXIT_COMMAND_FILEh > $! > $CONDITION2: > $  SET DEF 'P1 > $! > $EXIT_COMMAND_FILE:  > $  @DEV:[DIR]SET_PROMPTa > $exitn# > ---------------------------------n > $!! set_prompt.com/ > $x = f$getsyi("nodename")!! + "_" + "''p1'> " 6 > $y = f$edit(f$getjpi("","USERNAME"),"TRIM,COMPRESS")% > $if f$length(f$directory()) .le. 8 o > $then  > $  z = f$directory() > $else- > $z =L > f$extract(f$length(f$directory())-8,f$length(f$directory()),f$directory()) > $endif  > $set prompt="''x'>''y'>''z'$ " > J > The reason that SD.COM uses explicit dev:[dir] is for use with a priv'edG > tool call SET_USER.  On the Alpha this tool even changes the logicals4I > for SYS$LOGIN etc...  which is also the reason for the inclusion of theI) > username in the prompt.  So I know whatr- > node>username>last-8-chars-of-dir> I am on.n > example prompt:c > ALPHA1>MAUSTIN>MAUSTIN]$    F I agree it's useful to know where you are, but not filling the commandA line! My SD.COM equivalent puts the current node/directory in the ) title line of the DECterm. RTFAQ for how.a  B One nuisance of changing the prompt from the default $ is that youB then can't quickly treble-click and paste the command into anotherB DECterm without removing the funny prompt. But that applies to theD single-char feminine ordinal (superscript underlined a) prompt I useF to distinguish my ALPHA from my VAX. It's sufficient to remind me whatE commands I can/can't use. It also provokes quite a few "what the *!$&n is that?"s from colleagues :).  A BTW, apologies for repeating info others had posted in my initialTE reply to this thread -- Google listed the post twice: at the top with-> no replies, and also at the bottom of the screen with a dozen.   Chris    ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 08:10:47 -0600h- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)4: Subject: Re: how to display the nodename in the dcl prompt3 Message-ID: <Qmi21NANhtaz@eisner.encompasserve.org><  Z In article <a1fj76$oic$1@newswriterENV1.svr.pol.co.uk>, "XL" <itsafish@freeler.nl> writes: > Hi there,r > L > I am managing some vms systems of which the older ones which I haven't setC > up display the nodename in the commandline after logging in. Like?
 > nodename>>>uJ > I guess this is any kind of logical I have to set. But which one. And if > not, I haven't got any clue. > How do I do this?h      Get a clue: help.  G    As in help set prompt.  See, Englihs-liek.  You want to set a promt,d    use set prompt.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 12:18:45 -0500 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>: Subject: Re: how to display the nodename in the dcl prompt. Message-ID: <3C3C7B75.6B9D715D@mindspring.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:'   > $ SET PROMPT = ? >c) > where ? is what ever you want it to be!e  : Well, as long as "what ever you want it to be" is 32 bytes6 or fewer. Or has someone finally fixed this ridiculous> restriction? I use to run into this limit all the time on VMS.  5 (FWIW, on the Solaris system I'm using at the moment,e5 my prompt runs a hundred bytes or so and encapsulates-5 the nodename, the working directory, the build targeto8 directory, and some color-enceded stuff about privileges7 and the like. The prompt isn't very wide, but all thosea& escape sequences take a lot of bytes.)   Atlant   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 12:29:34 -0600D- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a: Subject: Re: how to display the nodename in the dcl prompt3 Message-ID: <INN+YW5reYgM@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  c In article <3C3C7B75.6B9D715D@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:a > Bob Ceculski wrote:  >  >> $ SET PROMPT = ?w >>* >> where ? is what ever you want it to be! > < > Well, as long as "what ever you want it to be" is 32 bytes8 > or fewer. Or has someone finally fixed this ridiculous@ > restriction? I use to run into this limit all the time on VMS. > 7 > (FWIW, on the Solaris system I'm using at the moment,a7 > my prompt runs a hundred bytes or so and encapsulates 7 > the nodename, the working directory, the build targetv: > directory, and some color-enceded stuff about privileges9 > and the like. The prompt isn't very wide, but all those"( > escape sequences take a lot of bytes.)  G    Yeah, I just love those UNIX setups where I end up with 78 charactergH    path names as a prompt and 2 characters to start typing a command in.  (    If only someone would restrict those!   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:18:49 +0100$ From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch>- Subject: Re: Multithreading within a process.e% Message-ID: <3c3bfcea$1@news.post.ch>u  L http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73final/6493/6101pro_031.html#vms_appendix      @ "Adrian" <adrianxwdeletethis@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag5 news:8b9b6926.0201080707.1bbbb3@posting.google.com...  > Hi,t >dE > I am returning to VMS after a long absence programming NT4 systems.eG > Having searched google and browsed numerous FAQ's, I have yet to find D > any keywords to search for, (or links), which will answer a ratherC > general question. (I can't even look at the system manuals as theaB > system hasn't been delivered yet!). Can I safely assume that theG > current version of VMS supports multi threading within a process, (ass > with NT/2000 etc.)?i >eD > Any useful links in this arena would be appreciated, however, I am7 > quite capable of searching, given the right keywords!s >t > Med venlig hilsen, > Adrian...a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 12:17:11 +0100r$ From: Jacek Tobiasz <jtb@atm.com.pl>I Subject: Re: Need example code for FTPeeing from own image - anyone help?t* Message-ID: <3C3C26B7.C71EC6A4@atm.com.pl>   Nick Ross wrote:  E > I need an example from any compiler of setting up an FTP connectionnC > from within an image. I don't want to spawn or creprc just FTP myr4 > newly created file off node without that overhead.  ( Look at http://nbpfaus.net/~pfau/ftplib/   regards, JacekS   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 17:39:33 GMTe$ From: Nick@Swiftbase.net (Nick Ross)I Subject: Re: Need example code for FTPeeing from own image - anyone help?.6 Message-ID: <3c3c7ff8.317366488@news.cyberphile.co.uk>  @ I'm working on this now - it looks like a good solution - thanks  B On Wed, 09 Jan 2002 12:17:11 +0100, Jacek Tobiasz <jtb@atm.com.pl> wrote:   >Nick Ross wrote:< >cF >> I need an example from any compiler of setting up an FTP connectionD >> from within an image. I don't want to spawn or creprc just FTP my5 >> newly created file off node without that overhead.B > ) >Look at http://nbpfaus.net/~pfau/ftplib/u >u	 >regards,i >Jacek   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 04:30:51 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>1 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Disk Services for Windows NT @ Message-ID: <20020109123051.98641.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>  . I never worked with this product but I believe( it should be under SANworks portfolio of	 products.    Regards2   FC=20:  ! --- Mark Iline - Info-VAX accountn <ivax@meng.ucl.ac.uk> wrote:5 > I've just been looking at the SPD for 'OpenVMS Disk  > Services for Windows NT'=20t5 > ( http://www.compaq.com/info/SP6080/SP6080PF.PDF ),  > and it's for version=20B3 > 1.1 that only refers to NT 4 & OpenVMS 7.1 & 6.2.  >=20# > Has this product got any future ?o >=205 > Has anyone tried it with versions of VMS beyond 7.1a > ?  >=20 >=20 > Mark >=20 >=20% > Mark Iline=09system@meng.ucl._ac.uki/ > Dept Mech Eng, University College, London. UKh     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3De  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:36:57 GMTa4 From: LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie): Subject: OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 9) Message-ID: <dAY_7.5537$Oh1.46691@insync>e Keywords: sun,solaris,intel,x86h  6    http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2002/0108sunintel.html3    Sun to drop Intel support in Solaris 9, 01/08/02   4    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8409777.html@    Sun delays Solaris 9 for Intel chips -  Tech News -  CNET.com  % --Jerry Leslie   leslie@clio.rice.edu:;                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net is invalid 2                  (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  * Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 07:26:45 -0800 (PST). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>> Subject: Re: OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 9@ Message-ID: <20020109152645.64801.qmail@web20206.mail.yahoo.com>  1 In my opinion Sun should convert Solaris Intel=20 . to a Linux like operating system. Like Caldera, did with SCO Unix. May be in a few time they, will begin to port Solarinux applications to' Solaris Sparc.  Or Solaris Itanium ?=20t     Regardsa   FC=20s2 --- Jerry Leslie <LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net> wrote: >  =205 > http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2002/0108sunintel.htmlv5 >    Sun to drop Intel support in Solaris 9, 01/08/02l >=206 >    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8409777.html6 >    Sun delays Solaris 9 for Intel chips -  Tech News
 > -  CNET.comS >=20' > --Jerry Leslie   leslie@clio.rice.eduR5 >                  leslie@209-16-45-102.insync.net ise	 > invalidn4 >                  (my opinions are strictly my own)     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dg F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazila fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3De  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/m   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 18:22:32 GMTlG From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP>N> Subject: Re: OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 96 Message-ID: <kT%_7.10410$cD4.21471@www.newsranger.com>  K On Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:36:57 GMT, in article <dAY_7.5537$Oh1.46691@insync>,X Jerry Leslie wrote:O > 7 >   http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2002/0108sunintel.htmlO4 >   Sun to drop Intel support in Solaris 9, 01/08/02 >M5 >   http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8409777.htmlaA >   Sun delays Solaris 9 for Intel chips -  Tech News -  CNET.coma  E Yes, all the Linux fans probably love Sun right now for eliminating atI competitor to Linux. (The Intel x86 version of Solaris was also availableaF for free download and that download has been pulled off Sun's website;G only the Sparc download remains. You can still buy the packaged versionh& of Solaris 8; the US price is 45 USD).  K It's interesting that some of the comments in comp.unix.solaris and relatedBE newsgroups are along of the lines of: that potential users of SolarislH will shortly have no way of very cheaply evaluating Solaris and that youK will have to buy proprietary Sparc hardware to run Solaris. They also point ; out that such hardware is a lot cheaper than it used to be.    Sound familiar ? :-)   Simon.   -- r@ Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP+ Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world./   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 17:55:03 +0100=, From: Theo Jakobus <Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de>& Subject: PWS500au, parallel port, DCPS) Message-ID: <3C3C75E7.9000500@iaf.fhg.de>     PWS500au, OpenVMS 7.3, DCPS+ 2.0  N I connected a printer to the parallel port which is named LRA0: under OpenVMS P and defined a queue in SYS$STARTUP:DCPS$STARTUP.COM. Printing left the entry in K starting state. I realized that the LRA0: device is unidirectional. Next I  E defined the logical DCPS$queue-name_NO_SYNC" = "TRUE" but no success.a     Regards, -- /  ; ***********************************************************=; *                                                         *-; *  Theo Jakobus                                           * ; *  Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Angewandte Festkoerperphysik  * ; *  Tullastr. 72                                           *0; *  D-79108 Freiburg                                       *M; *  Germany                                                *l; *  Phone:   +49-(0)761-5159-325                           *a; *  FAX :    +49-(0)761-5159-200                           *t; *  e-mail:  Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de                       *l; *  http://www.iaf.fhg.de                                  * ; *                                                         *-; ***********************************************************r   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 12:39:55 -0600h- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)1* Subject: Re: PWS500au, parallel port, DCPS3 Message-ID: <M7NUruoFkCzS@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  X In article <3C3C75E7.9000500@iaf.fhg.de>, Theo Jakobus <Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de> writes:" > PWS500au, OpenVMS 7.3, DCPS+ 2.0 > P > I connected a printer to the parallel port which is named LRA0: under OpenVMS R > and defined a queue in SYS$STARTUP:DCPS$STARTUP.COM. Printing left the entry in M > starting state. I realized that the LRA0: device is unidirectional. Next I yG > defined the logical DCPS$queue-name_NO_SYNC" = "TRUE" but no success.y  H Please indicate which make and model of Postscript printer you attached,K and do so before the people who know what they are talking about arrive :-)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 13:52:28 +0100a, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>0 Subject: PWS600a, au, BA35x and all these things& Message-ID: <3C3C3D0D.E20D4DB6@gmx.ch>  B My two PWS up and running OpenVMS 7.2-1 via external system disks.   Thanks to everybody.  8 Nextstep: Internet... i.e. how to do DHCP with TCP/IP V5   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 17:03:17 +0100 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>eC Subject: Re: Samsung ordered to pay $73.5 million for mismanagementb) Message-ID: <3C3C69C5.140C05AF@gtech.com>s   Larry Kilgallen wrote:H > http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/breaking/1228samsung28.html > E > SEOUL, South Korea - In a landmark ruling, a South Korean court hasNI > ordered 10 executives from Samsung Electronics Co. to pay $73.5 million-2 > back to the company for mismanaging its affairs. > D > The decision handed down Thursday marked the first time that South> > Korean business executives were held legally responsible forJ > mismanagement, which has caused serious financial losses to South Korean > companies and shareholders.B  ? Anyone care to estimate what Palmer & Capella should pay back ?    :-)<   Arne   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 08:15:01 -0600o- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) D Subject: Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products3 Message-ID: <m+N14hUoCioq@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  \ In article <3C3B7BEB.68A752B3@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote:G >>    OK, so the first iMac looked like an ADM-3 from the 70's, and the G >>    new one looks like a desk lamp from the 60's.  If Apple continuesNK >>    the retro thing, will the third iMac someday look like a toaster fromp >>    the 50's?  > N > How about a keypunch machine ? One could already put the sound of a keypunch; > for each key you press on the keyboard to simulate it :-)!  D    Well, I was thinking IBM 360/75, but they don't seem to be makingE    iMacs bigger, just older looking.  A keypunch would be too big for H    the next step, and the last step seems to be away from making it look+    like it's part of the computer industry.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 01:45:54 -0700$4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The di8 Message-ID: <gm0o3ugvto1g5v2si33cshrpg7u427g4sd@4ax.com>  1 On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 01:18:01 +0000, Christian BauN+ <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:n [snip]I >There is one situation where "contextual menu by waiting" is beneficial:nF >Use a web browser. Click on a link. Realise just before releasing theG >mouse button that you want to open that link in a new window. Wait fordH >contextual menu to pop up, select "open in new window". This allows youC >to change how the mouse click is interpreted while the mouse click'< >happens, something that is impossible using a PC mouse with4 >right/wrong^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hleft/right button.  ; Not if you always right click on links and pick open in newt@ window normally or just open if you want to replace the window.   9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canadaa -- -F Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov 						spam traps   ------------------------------  ! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 02 10:16:01 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.comhY Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demis+ Message-ID: <a1hcp3$jkk$4@bob.news.rcn.net>i  2 In article <slrna3mm98.kh6.liam@nessie.xinqu.net>,0    liam@nessie.xinqu.net (Liam Greenwood) wrote:G >On Tue, 08 Jan 02 09:48:04 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com <jmfbahciv@aol.com> i wrote:4 >>In article <slrna3k2jh.j93.liam@nessie.xinqu.net>,2 >>   liam@nessie.xinqu.net (Liam Greenwood) wrote:< >>>	It is difficult to discover.  If I have multiple buttonsF >>>then there is a chance they may do something, so I try them.  ThereB >>>is no clue that if I hold a button down for some period of timeE >>>something will happen.  Having said that however, there is nothing-D >>>intuitive about any mouse driven interface (as anyone who has hadD >>>to show someone how to drive a mouse from scratch will know), so B >>>context sensitive menus are just another overload of the mouse A >>>button to teach the user. (click, double-click, click-select, dB >>>drag-select, drag-n-drop, menu-select, and context-menus - all  >>>on one simple button) >>B >>[stunned emoticon here]  The reason this is the User Device From; >>Hell is due to the fact I didn't have formal training????  >e> >	No, the reason it is the User Device form Heck is due to the% >fact you *NEED* formal training. :-)e  8 Where can I sign up for a class?  Anything to make these damn balls roll.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.i   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 16:33:29 GMTe  From: chrisv <chrisv@chrisv.com>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demii8 Message-ID: <jeso3uo877sbrfftdf85s6jljv9fqqtp8m@4ax.com>  / "aaron spink" <aaronspink@earthlink.net> wrote:t  H >> The multiple mouse buttons is another way to unnecessarily complicate >thoseF >> windows boxes to try to show that they are more powerful than macs. >>L >Nope, it is a simple and cost effective of making a system user friendly asL >opposed to user stupid.  User stupid is when you assume that all your usersI >are stupid so you don't allow any advanced features that can be learned.-K >User friendly is when you allow the system and the user to adapt in such a A >way that as they grow together they both become more productive.   % Mac:  designed by morons  for morons.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 17:30:00 GMTn2 From: "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld.pleaseremove@att.net>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demisbI Message-ID: <s6%_7.346807$W8.12996056@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>f  9 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in messaget1 news:20020108081011.34773018.steveo@eircom.net...M" > On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:52:21 GMT/ > liam@nessie.xinqu.net (Liam Greenwood) wrote:h >rH > LG> something will happen.  Having said that however, there is nothingG > LG> intuitive about any mouse driven interface (as anyone who has hadgF > LG> to show someone how to drive a mouse from scratch will know), so >q= > My kids caught on to it very quickly, perhaps learning what 0 > a mouse does is easier for a three year old :)   To quote Tom Lehrer   G     "It's so simple, so very simple, that only a child can do it"   :-)c   --  - Stephen Fuld-+    e-mail address disguised to prevent spam9   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:03:46 -0500- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>$  Subject: Using "-" in a Filename3 Message-ID: <sC%_7.90291$Z2.1290119@nnrp1.uunet.ca>_  C As much as I tried to avoid reading the "Historical Reason" thread,w/ something in one of the messages caught my eye..  G I decided to try creating a file that started with the "-" character. Io noticed that under;e         VAX/VMS 7.1o         VAX/VMS 7.3r         AXP/VMS 7.1-2o  K the procedure below will only create one -X.TXT file. But under AXP/VMS 7.3 L this procedure will create two -X.TXT files. I find the output from the lastG DIR command to be particularly interesting. It looks to me like the CLDoJ correctly accepts - as the first character in a filename, but RMS fails to handle it correctly.  J As a person who takes being called a VMS Bigot as a compliment, I was veryL annoyed when I saw a posting that claimed that there were inconsistencies inL the way VMS handled filenames, but I guess I have to eat crow and admit that1 the poster was correct in this case.  :( :( :( :(e   $ type test-filename.com $!
 $ set noon $ set symbol/scope=noglobal3? $ if "V7.1-2 " .ges. "V7.3" then set process /parse=traditionalx $! $ create -x.txte this is -x.txt $! $ create []-x.txtr   this is []-x.txt $! $ dir -x.txt $ dir []-x.txt $ type -x.txt;*l $! $ type []-x.txt;*  $ create $x.txth   This is $x.txt $! $ dir $x.txt,-x.txtp $! $ @test-filename $!
 $ set noon $ set symbol/scope=noglobal ? $ if "V7.1-2 " .ges. "V7.3" then set process /parse=traditionals $! $ create -x.txt 1 %CREATE-E-OPENOUT, error opening -X.TXT as outpute+ -RMS-F-SYN, file specification syntax errorbB %DCL-W-SKPDAT, image data (records not beginning with "$") ignored $! $ create []-x.txtd   this is []-x.txt $! $ dir -x.txt/ %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening -X.TXT as inpute+ -RMS-F-SYN, file specification syntax errorr $ dir []-x.txt   Directory SYS$USERS:[PWEAVER]a   -X.TXT;1   Total of 1 file. $ type -x.txt;* 0 %TYPE-W-SEARCHFAIL, error searching for -X.TXT;*+ -RMS-F-SYN, file specification syntax errora $! $ type []-x.txt;*s   SYS$USERS:[PWEAVER]-X.TXT;1-     this is []-x.txt $ create $x.txt4   This is $x.txt $! $ dir $x.txt,-x.txtb   Directory SYS$USERS:[PWEAVER]R  / %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening -X.TXT as inputD+ -RMS-F-SYN, file specification syntax errora $X.TXT;1   Total of 1 file. $!     --J A study has shown that sheep can remember faces for up to 2 years, I guess- that means I'm dumber than the average sheep.c   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 12:33:41 -0600 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)N$ Subject: Re: Using "-" in a Filename3 Message-ID: <5U$sj2doQqes@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <sC%_7.90291$Z2.1290119@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes:  > L > As a person who takes being called a VMS Bigot as a compliment, I was veryN > annoyed when I saw a posting that claimed that there were inconsistencies inN > the way VMS handled filenames, but I guess I have to eat crow and admit that& > the poster was correct in this case.  K Put the crow back in the pie.  You've run into one of the few situations inaF which it is actually necessary to code the escape ^ to get the commandH right.  I don't see anything in your example incosistent with documented
 behaviour.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 19:37:25 +0100 (MET)y9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a$ Subject: Re: Using "-" in a Filename; Message-ID: <01KCVNCK6VIM8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>O  B > I don't see anything in your example incosistent with documented > behaviour.  F Just because it is documented doesn't mean that it is consistent.  :-|   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:47:50 -0500- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>0$ Subject: Re: Using "-" in a Filename3 Message-ID: <Mf0%7.90301$Z2.1290725@nnrp1.uunet.ca>   : "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:5U$sj2doQqes@eisner.encompasserve.org... D > In article <sC%_7.90291$Z2.1290119@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Peter Weaver"  <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes: > >(I > > As a person who takes being called a VMS Bigot as a compliment, I wasT very= > > annoyed when I saw a posting that claimed that there were. inconsistencies inK > > the way VMS handled filenames, but I guess I have to eat crow and admitL that( > > the poster was correct in this case. >SJ > Put the crow back in the pie.  You've run into one of the few situations inH > which it is actually necessary to code the escape ^ to get the commandJ > right.  I don't see anything in your example incosistent with documented > behaviour.  ? I'm still eating, want to sit down with me and have a bite two?i  I The ^ character has nothing to do with it; none of the VMS versions I see L the problem with understand the ^ character. The version that handles a fileJ named -.TXT properly is the only version I have access to that understands the ^ character.  9 I should have mentioned that this is all on ODS-2 drives.m   --J A study has shown that sheep can remember faces for up to 2 years, I guess- that means I'm dumber than the average sheep.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 11:32:35 -0700a+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>=G Subject: VAX 4000/100 with Correctable Memory Errors resulting in crash_' Message-ID: <3C3C8CC3.9070109@mmaz.com>o  F I have an older VAX 4000/100 with the 16MB simms loaded out to 128MB. I  The system has not been under HW maintenance for some time but has been MG very stable until recently.  As of late, we have logged at least three PA times correctable memory errors that were flagged as "Memory SBE  A reduction subpacket" resulting in a system shutdown/crash due to 9I "RESEXH, Resources exhausted, system shutting down."  The general status e% is "scrubbed" and that is about it...o  F What is of concern is that it is not a single simm location, but each C time it is a different simm producing the same error with the same h results...     Any thoughts or suggestions?     Barryw   -- E  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028w   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 08:23:26 GMTf' From: "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii@mail.com>  Subject: Re: VAX in a VT-103?p( Message-ID: <3C3BFDF7.F18CCB36@mail.com>   "Stuart S. Johnson" wrote:E > Oh, yeah - ever boot a system from a TU-58? There is an exercise inr > patience!g  3 Used RT-11 with DECUS C on VT-103 with Dual TU-58s.l   -- y C.W.Holeman II cwhii@mail.com http://also.as/cwhii   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:37:00 -0500* From: "Chris Moore" <moore_mc@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: VAX in a VT-103? 3 Message-ID: <GAY_7.90213$Z2.1289089@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,  K Had a DEC Field Engineer tell me one time (back in my 11/750 days) that thecK reason that Digital covered the TU58 cartridges with a full-width label was1J so users wouldn't be able to see how slow the tape was moving......and I'm not so sure he was kidding!s  J btw.  last time I used a TU58 on that box was to boot standalone backup (3G cartridges).....I think Alphas could be DESIGNED and ASSEMBLED  in lessn time.n    2 "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii@mail.com> wrote in message" news:3C3BFDF7.F18CCB36@mail.com... > "Stuart S. Johnson" wrote:G > > Oh, yeah - ever boot a system from a TU-58? There is an exercise inO
 > > patience!  > 5 > Used RT-11 with DECUS C on VT-103 with Dual TU-58s.* >* > -- > C.W.Holeman II > cwhii@mail.com > http://also.as/cwhii   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 13:28:01 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e1 Subject: Re: VMS Marketing For the General Public ; Message-ID: <01KCVAGI2WIY8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   J > The only problem is the reference to Windows.  You'd have a much greaterI > chance of getting Compaq approval if it didn't obviously malign anotherF< > product.  Can you say something similar by implication ?     Industry-standard?  :-)g   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 08:20:30 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>1 Subject: RE: VMS Marketing For the General Public*- Message-ID: <0033000047243947000002L072*@MHS>    =0AAFAIK, not at this time.   B And in addition to writing the CROSSFADE line to describe a visualH effect within the advertisement but to somewhat subtly make that point.=     :^)@   WWWebb     -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETJ* Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 12:13 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET1 Subject: RE: VMS Marketing For the General Public     + WILLIAM WEBB (WWEBB1@email.usps.gov) wrote:  ..# > CROSSFADE TO COMPAQ OPENVMS LOGO.e  A This crossed my mind just yesterday: *Is* there an official logo?hH I still think the shark logo is nice, but haven't seen it for a long ti= me (except on the hobbyist site).   cu,i   Martin --F   OpenVMS:                | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3    The operating system   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de F    God runs the           |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/;    earth simulation on.   | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de=s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 08:31:18 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>1 Subject: RE: VMS Marketing For the General PublicD- Message-ID: <0033000047245377000002L072*@MHS>-  ? =0AAs long as it's used to promote OpenVMS systems, go with it.i! Anything else, I'll make a stink.j :^)h   WWWebb     -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET3( Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 10:15 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET1 Subject: RE: VMS Marketing For the General Public      WILLIAM WEBB wrote:K >a   > INT. DATA CENTER-  >e. >     Man standing in front of row of servers. >  >                        MAN= >            "My systems have been up for 276 days straight."T >s    INT. ANOTHER DATA CENTER-  5      Another Man standing in front of row of servers.s                           MANwF             "My systems have been up for more than 400 days straight."     > INT. OFFICE- >o1 >     People standing in front of midsize system.y >c >                        PEOPLE-6 >             "Our fileservers are immune to viruses."  3 *WARNING* - Possible Truth in Advertising conflict.c    > INT. SMALL OFFICE SERVER ROOM- >iH >     Woman sitting in front of table with several desktop-sized system= s  >     with monitors. >A >                        WOMAN= >             "My webservers have been up for eighteen months 7 >              and they haven't been hacked even once."s >n > VOICEOVER  > 8 >             "What do these people know that you don't?   (More politically correct:)l6              "What do these people all have in common?  ; >             "They're running OpenVMS systems from Compaq.r  F I'd leave out the Compaq reference just yet. It's not a strong selling point at the moment.   >W= >              OpenVMS.   Stability...Reliability...Security.g > 7 >              If you're tired of frequent downtime ando7 >              missing data, then it's time you thoughtb* >              about closing the windows." >f# > CROSSFADE TO COMPAQ OPENVMS LOGO.-# CROSSFADE TO OPENVMS LOGO ON BLACK. 	 VOICEOVER:%           OpenVMS - Nothing stops it..  8           To find out how to solve your server problems,1           contact OpenVMS today at 1-800-OpenVMS.   C (Actually, that phone number is not currently available in the U.S.T Didn't try 888, 877 or 866.)  & FADE IN COMPAQ LOGO, CORNER OF SCREEN.=           OpenVMS is a product of Compaq Computer Corporationn  
 FADE TO BLACKa  2 TRT: 15 to 30 seconds. (15 without music, 30 with)  H Hey - Terry (Shannon): Find me some talent. I'll rent some gear and com= ehH to your location(s) to shoot. We'll edit and take it to Gorham, Marcell= oiE and Co. (sounds like a law firm, doesn't it?). I'll see if I can findpH some financial backing. All we need from the Q is a signed VAR agreemen= tP< and permission to use their trade/service marks/names in ourH advertising. We'll form up a VAR and sell more VMS, CSWS, etc. than the= ynH can handle. When *WE* get big enough, we'll launch a hostile takeover o= f, both the Q *AND* HP!   Hoddaya like *THEM* apples??!!  G ..and William (Webb): May I assume no objections to using your materia=d ls as the basis of an ad campaign?s   -- David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsb http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:  http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/=   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 08:34:08 -0500* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>1 Subject: RE: VMS Marketing For the General Publicc- Message-ID: <0033000047245777000002L072*@MHS>e  > =0ALet me try to say that again, this time with better syntax-  < The CROSSFADE line was not only written to describe a visualA effect within the advertisement, but also to somewhat subtly makec that point.m   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETa) Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 8:28 AM B To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET1 Subject: RE: VMS Marketing For the General Public      AFAIK, not at this time.  B And in addition to writing the CROSSFADE line to describe a visualH effect within the advertisement but to somewhat subtly make that point.=     :^)d   WWWebb     -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETh* Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 12:13 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET1 Subject: RE: VMS Marketing For the General Publice    + WILLIAM WEBB (WWEBB1@email.usps.gov) wrote:  .l# > CROSSFADE TO COMPAQ OPENVMS LOGO.s  A This crossed my mind just yesterday: *Is* there an official logo?lH I still think the shark logo is nice, but haven't seen it for a long ti= me (except on the hobbyist site).   cu,o   Martin --F   OpenVMS:                | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3    The operating system   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deaF    God runs the           |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/;    earth simulation on.   | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de=r   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 05:48:07 -0800d( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)< Subject: Want to follow IBM model Capellas?  IBM quits pc's!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201090548.786ee2b5@posting.google.com>u  9 well, Capellas said he wanted to follow the IBM model, sow= here is his chance ... IBM knows what I have been saying thatc: the mainframe/mini is coming back, and the pc will soon be= history as you will surf the web, get disk and email services ; right from your smart cable box on tv (time warner/aol) ...n< IBM knows this so they will concentrate on their 64 bit risc< platform ... so Capellas, you better dump those pc's and get3 Alpha back, or you fall behind the IBM model again!o   here is the proof ...a  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/09010213.htm-  ' Big Blue stops making PCs - few notice     Inevitability of the thing... & By Mike Magee, 09/01/2002 11:53:01 BST  @ THERE WERE RUMOURS APLENTY last year that IBM was getting out ofE making desktop PCs and now they've come true, like every story almost4 inevitably does... Recessions hit IT big bruisers  B IBM said yesterday it was to sell its PC manufacturing business inB Europe and US to Sanmina although it will still make StinkPads and+ still design and sell the desktop machines.   D It's just over twenty years since IBM intro'd its PC and set most ofF the world to using its architecture, turning Dell, Intel and MicrosoftD into X86 Great Satans while ultimately Big Blue didn't do as well as it hoped to out of the box.o  C There may well be layoffs because of the move but they won't happena< for a while, as Samina said it will keep on a heap of staff.  / IBM will still make some PCs in China, it said.   F What's interesting about IBM's move is really its inevitability, given= the rise and rise of Dell and the high cost of making PCs for0 incredibly low margins.W  @ What's maybe more surprising is that IBM didn't make the break aF little bit earlier, rather than thrashing around for the years that it did.  E And the most ironic thing is that even though Big Blue made the firsteE X86 PC, no one is really going to miss its place in the manufacturing  market very much at all.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 15:33:58 GMT - From: kraemer@clri6e.gsi.de (Michael Kraemer)i@ Subject: Re: Want to follow IBM model Capellas?  IBM quits pc's!4 Message-ID: <a1hnt6$qg7$1@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>  D > IBM said yesterday it was to sell its PC manufacturing business inD > Europe and US to Sanmina although it will still make StinkPads and- > still design and sell the desktop machines.s  @ This is less than half the story. They just outsource (not stop)G the production of the NetVista thin client model (not PCs altogether). e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 09:16:21 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>:, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha' Message-ID: <3C3BFC55.1B4236D8@aaa.com>1  2 Hm, I can't buy anything from the "OpenVMS eStore"' no matter *when* I try. It's US-only...!   Jan-Erik Sderholm   PS.i And right now, it says :! "The eStore is currently closed. l> If you would like to place an order while the eStore is down, G please call one of the following, during the hours of 8am to 5pm EST: "l DS.e   Jan-Erik Sderholm   John Smith wrote:n > G > That's not a Windows fault. It really more typical of United State ofrM > America hubris .... if it doesn't trade in US dollars, on a US exchange, inLM > accordance with SEC rules, and settle at DTC, then it can't possibly exist.- > L > Seen it too many times to have it surprise me any more....from the largestJ > US-based banks and brokers who ought to know better...after all, they do. > hire the best and the brightest, don't they?   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:19:29 -05005 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>a, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha2 Message-ID: <70%_7.454$5Y4.13429@news.cpqcorp.net>   John Smith wrote in message ...- >xA >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messagen- >news:lIF_7.406$5Y4.11329@news.cpqcorp.net...a >>I >> Someone once described a bug report their company got.  It seemed that  >everyK >> night there was a glitch in Hong Kong with a data feed.  Turned out thattH >> someone in the US was automatically rebooting their servers when theyH >> believed all the markets were closed and nobody was working...  Gotta love >> Windows, and 24x7.e >> >DF >That's not a Windows fault. It really more typical of United State ofL >America hubris .... if it doesn't trade in US dollars, on a US exchange, inL >accordance with SEC rules, and settle at DTC, then it can't possibly exist. > K >Seen it too many times to have it surprise me any more....from the largest I >US-based banks and brokers who ought to know better...after all, they doh- >hire the best and the brightest, don't they?u >h    I Sure it was a Windows fault.  There should not have been a need to reboottI the systems at all.  The unfortunate timing on the other hand, was just ao7 symptom of quality of management of Windows systems ;-)t   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 17:16:16 +0100 (MET)29 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>h' Subject: who else got the VMS brochure? ; Message-ID: <01KCVIDRMZ6Q8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>o  C Due to a delay because it was sent to an old address, I just got a oF brochure entitled OPENING GREATER OPPORTUNITIES.  It seems to be REAL C VMS marketing, like we've all been asking for.  Not JUST buzzwords eI (though they are there) but relevant information, quotes from real heads 0 of real companies etc.   Who else got this?  G It seems to me that this type of information should be target not just c: at existing customers but also at potential new customers.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:34:28 -07003 From: "David D Miller" <ddmiller@west.raytheon.com> + Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?VF Message-ID: <OF1861B581.1E63B44E-ON07256B3C.005AD94F@rsc.raytheon.com>   Phillip:  I I got it and I'm not a customer.  Maybe Compaq used the Encompass mailingt list.s  $ And I agree, it's good for a glossy.   dave.t      B Due to a delay because it was sent to an old address, I just got aE brochure entitled OPENING GREATER OPPORTUNITIES.  It seems to be REALyB VMS marketing, like we've all been asking for.  Not JUST buzzwordsH (though they are there) but relevant information, quotes from real heads of real companies etc.   Who else got this?  F It seems to me that this type of information should be target not just: at existing customers but also at potential new customers.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 17:37:58 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>v+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?m; Message-ID: <01KCVJ68XDG88ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>p  K > I got it and I'm not a customer.  Maybe Compaq used the Encompass mailing- > list.-  1 Perhaps, but that's still preaching to the choir.a  & > And I agree, it's good for a glossy.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:41:48 -0500> From: "Koska, John C. (LNG-MBC)" <John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com>+ Subject: RE: who else got the VMS brochure? M Message-ID: <3D35AD137AAAD411A6BA0008C7B1B12D0160266B@MBCALBEXC03.BENDER.COM>   G I received, and agree with your assessment.  As such, I passed it alongr$ to some non-VMS types in my company.   :) jck   > -----Original Message-----B > From: Phillip Helbig [mailto:HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com], > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 11:16 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comc) > Subject: who else got the VMS brochure?  >  > E > Due to a delay because it was sent to an old address, I just got a fH > brochure entitled OPENING GREATER OPPORTUNITIES.  It seems to be REAL E > VMS marketing, like we've all been asking for.  Not JUST buzzwords d@ > (though they are there) but relevant information, quotes from 
 > real heads 3 > of real companies etc. >  > Who else got this? > @ > It seems to me that this type of information should be target  > not just a< > at existing customers but also at potential new customers. >   
 John Koska Matthew Bender & Co., Inc. -"   A Member of the LexisNexis Group
 1275 Broadwayh Albany, NY  12204i USA  518-487-3255 John.C.Koska@lexisnexis.com-  ) I post personal opinion only, and all theI* disclaimers one could imagine apply.  That( includes, I speak for myself only and my) views in no way represent my employer(s).o+ One should also take note of the Electronici) Communications Privacy Act of 1986, which2+ imposes civil and criminal liability on anyi( person who intentionally intercepts "any( wire, oral or electronic communication."   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 18:05:08 GMTaG From: Simon Clubley <simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP>k+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?t6 Message-ID: <MA%_7.10383$cD4.21272@www.newsranger.com>  4 On Wed, 09 Jan 2002 17:37:58 +0100 (MET), in articleF <01KCVJ68XDG88ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig wrote: >3L >> I got it and I'm not a customer.  Maybe Compaq used the Encompass mailing >> list. >   J DECUS only have my home address and I got this at work. I wonder if it was% sent to people on Sue's mailing list.*  2 >Perhaps, but that's still preaching to the choir. >.' >> And I agree, it's good for a glossy.-  K I note that (on page 4) they use the 450,000 installed systems figure again@K which is interesting given recent discussions here about the current figureiG been lower. Does anyone know when a more current figure is likely to be 
 released ?   Simon.  C BTW, who are the unnamed people in the photographs ? Members of VMSp6 engineering, customers, or just actors ? Just curious.   --  @ Simon Clubley, simon_clubley@remove_me.altavista.co.uk-Earth.UFP+ Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 19:22:42 +0100p, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?0& Message-ID: <3C3C8A72.D181034F@gmx.ch>   Phillip Helbig wrote:  > D > Due to a delay because it was sent to an old address, I just got aG > brochure entitled OPENING GREATER OPPORTUNITIES.  It seems to be REAL D > VMS marketing, like we've all been asking for.  Not JUST buzzwordsJ > (though they are there) but relevant information, quotes from real heads > of real companies etc. >  > Who else got this? > H > It seems to me that this type of information should be target not just< > at existing customers but also at potential new customers.    I got it in Zurich, Switzerland.   D. --  G   ---------------------------------------------------------------------nE MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmlnE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670a/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.s  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais, Man spricht Deutsch, Habla Castellano, English spoken   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 19:24:50 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>r+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?2; Message-ID: <01KCVMOPLIL48ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>O  E > BTW, who are the unnamed people in the photographs ? Members of VMS 8 > engineering, customers, or just actors ? Just curious.  1 Tidbits like this are always interesting to know.y  H I once saw someone (NOT a VMS fan) who had copied the cover of some VAX G architecture manual and hung it up on his wall.  This was from 1981 or AH so.  It said something like "VAX: architecture for the 80s".  The cover G showed people in a computing room, complete with bell-bottom trousers, sI sideburns, long hair, wide collars etc.  He penciled in beneath the copy E "and fashions for the 70s".n  - > Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.   I I always thought it would be a good idea to redefine "legacy" by teaming aD up with, say, Mercedes-Benz and refering to a Mercedes as a "legacy E car".  In other words, recent IT doublespeak has redefined new to be fH good and old to be bad in the minds of many, although this is often not F the case.  Also (as the Mercedes example shows), historical legacy is $ no barrier to continued improvement.  I By the way, I read recently that the ORIGINAL auto of Karl Benz is being WE produced again, in a hand-made special series costing about 50,000 a  H piece.  (It has been slightly modified to run on normal lead-free fuel, H but is otherwise pretty much like the original.)  I don't know if it is 
 street-legal.:   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 12:36:42 -0600 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)p+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?s3 Message-ID: <T7dmdrYr6JRw@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  w In article <01KCVIDRMZ6Q8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:tE > Due to a delay because it was sent to an old address, I just got a  H > brochure entitled OPENING GREATER OPPORTUNITIES.  It seems to be REAL E > VMS marketing, like we've all been asking for.  Not JUST buzzwords nK > (though they are there) but relevant information, quotes from real heads o > of real companies etc. >  > Who else got this?  D Listing people in this newsgroup who got it is not very interesting.D The important thing is how many still have it.  The answer should be None..  I > It seems to me that this type of information should be target not just L< > at existing customers but also at potential new customers.  E Exactly.  So if you got one by mistake, or because yours was the name = that Compaq had, please give it away to someone who needs it.h   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:40:28 GMT ) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The    demise    of  ' Message-ID: <3C3C1037.4ABD9256@ev1.net>r   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > ) > In article <3C3AC94A.48138FB9@ev1.net>,E/ >    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:  > > - > >     [snip....]    [snip...]     [snip...]p > >?G > >Yes, if your nephew is smart, he *should* be assigned more difficultrH > >work. I thought that is why they had special classes for smart peopleE > >called "honors" classes. I guess a lot of school systems can *not*o > >afford that...w > = > From what I understood, this was an honors class.  I may bee? > mistaken about this.  Do you understand why I'm worried aboutp > that generation? > 9 IMHO because the lunatics are running the asylum now!!! I27 read somewhere:  A dime (farthing) and a 100 kilo block,; of gold are worth the same amount...if they are both layingo; at the bottom of the ocean.  The only way the gold is worthm7 more is if you bring it up and use it. Being smart onlyW8 helps you (and others) if you *use* your intelligence to> accomplish things. You can worry because the current educators& seem *not* to understand this concept. >f: > It has been my observation that, the smarter one is, the: > harder we get worked.  Of course, that's also due to the1 > fact that most people who are smart have a needb
 > to produce.e > > IMHO it is also because companies want to pound every last bit< of work that they can get out of you. Having a computer lets; a secretary do the work of a dozen typing-pool workers...son; the company *requires* the secretary to do the work of that-? dozen other people. Employers figure that if--with technology--G: you can do *more* in *less* time...then you can do a *lot*; more in much *more* time. That's why I see a lot of people d6 coming home from the office at eight or nine at night.   --  ? +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |M? +-------------------------------------------------------------+    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 07:50:16 GMT ) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>tY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The    demise    of -' Message-ID: <3C3C1282.F92D0DC3@ev1.net>0   Terje Mathisen wrote:. >  > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:? > > From what I understood, this was an honors class.  I may be7A > > mistaken about this.  Do you understand why I'm worried abouti > > that generation? > >B< > > It has been my observation that, the smarter one is, the< > > harder we get worked.  Of course, that's also due to the3 > > fact that most people who are smart have a needi > > to produce.i > I > Most smart people gets bored easily, the only sure way to avoid this ish; > to continually learn new stuff, and (hopefully) apply it.. > G In the common vernacular, this is referred to as "being challenged". IfiF the smart people are *not* given challenging tasks, they become bored. >rG > I'm not vain enough to believe that I couldn't have a satisfying lifebI > without producing anything at all of value (to the rest of society), asEF > long as I had a good supply of SF books and  problems/brain teasers. >aD As long as you had friends to discuss the books and problems with... > J > (How's that for a convoluted sentence? It falls far short of last week'sH > "I couldn't disagree less...", but not too bad for a norwegian guy :-) > J > Anyway, one of the key problems seems to be that only a very, very smallG > percentage of the population drives progress, so how do you make suregJ > that those who are actually capable of it ends up with the education/job! > environment they need to do it?  > H I believe the answer is...those who are capable of driving progress mustI *fight* for everything they get. They must take charge of their educationpM and push to learn all they can. ("Proactive" seems to be a popular word here,tI but I have yet to find a dictionary definition that supports this usage.)e  K So what the smart people need to be taught--and taught *very* well--is thatWK they have to work and fight for everything they get. After they really knowb6 that, it is up to them to make things happen...  IMHO. > J > Or is this no problem at all, simply because the same people will excell! > no matter where you place them?i > B IMHO *not* necessarily, unless the smart ones understand they haveB to make a supreme effort to use their gifts. Perhaps the good sideB to this is that all these struggles should make them *stronger* to do things in their lives.I  D As George Bernard Shaw said:  "The reasonable man adapts himself to F the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world D to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."  G Can you see the struggle that the "unreasonable man" above will have???s   -- h? +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |-? +-------------------------------------------------------------+i   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 00:19:13 -08002 From: "Walter Rottenkolber" <waltjr@sierratel.com>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The   demise    of cn) Message-ID: <3c3c1937@news.sierratel.com>i  ; Bernd Paysan wrote in message <3C3ADA03.8C1BDCC3@gmx.de>...w >Charles Richmond schrieb:E >> Indeed!!! And a lot of this happens as a matter of course. I mean,eB >> the school system teaches to the "average" kid...which is oftenB >> a euphemism for the lowest common denominator. So a kid that isA >> smart gets bored...and gets the idea that he can skate his wayU >> through life. >cE >The PISA studies recovered that teaching "lowest common denominator"'@ >doesn't help the under-achievers, either. In fact, the "frontalA >teaching" model used in many schools is the worst problem. OtheroI >problems are that in many industrial nations, the decline of birth ratessH >led to fewer pupils, and instead of making smaller classes, the typicalE >decision is to stop hiring new teachers (so that the burned out ones I >dominate). There are far more things to do to get a good school systems.4 >nG >Step 1: kill buero"crazy". In Germany, each country has a large schoolgD >buerocracy which reglements many things schools do without being inB >touch with teaching. This includes even choosing the directors ofF >schools by what party they belong to. These school regulation officesH >have to be shut down almost completely (giving their task into the handH >of teachers and pupils (+ their parents) of the school, who know betterD >what to do). The remaining tasks for the buerocracy are: scientificE >evaluation of the work schools do (i.e. performing studies like PISAi@ >regulary), and coordinating efforts for standardized exams. TheC >scandinavic countries did that a while ago, and they head the PISAe >ranks.T >tF >Step 2: change the teaching model (frontal teaching), it is outdated.G >Kids learn much more from peers and own efforts than from listening touG >adults. Also, there's no point in first teaching childrens to talk andtE >walk, and then to sit and shut up. Passive bodies also shut down thehH >brain. Also, things that have obvious practical relevance are easier toE >learn, since motivation is higher. The way school today is separatedwE >from other activities of society defeats quite a lot (example: while0D >Germany ranks pretty low in the PISA study, this doesn't have a badD >effect on German worker skill, due to dual education system (partlyH >school, partly on the job) that's used for most jobs that don't require >university degrees).a >eI >Step 3: some skills have aquiring opportunity windows. Languages are theeG >most prominent example, they are easiest to aquire early in childhood,b> >and most difficult to aquire during pupertary. However, sinceI >traditional schools consider languages "difficult", they are only taughtsF >to a "more mature audience", i.e. childrens during pupertary. Bummer.- >It's like teaching 13 year old boys to sing.u >m >-- 
 >Bernd Paysan-8 >"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" >http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/r  G You may find it interesting to see how personality affects education at-E www.keirsey.com . There are two tests available in several languages.i   Walter Rottenkolbern   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 16:56:58 +0100g= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>cO Subject: Re: [anounce] Sanity Kit for Compaq C++ V6.5 for OpenVMS Alpha systemsE) Message-ID: <3C3C684A.1DEEE83A@gtech.com>    David Mathog wrote:l, > But really - what exactly is a sanity kit?  : I think a sanity kit is a kt distributed to participant in= a field test with the bug fixes present, so they can see thatt it actually ended up working.i   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 19:25:48 +0100m, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>@ Subject: [tired] PWS600au does not e7 e6 e5... anymore and hangs& Message-ID: <3C3C8B2B.85FC05A6@gmx.ch>   Pffffff.... what a pain!  I I restarted my PWS600au this evening and surprize, no more hardware tests M sequence. Then I got my SRM prompt, I could see my BA356, I booted DKA100, it M started booting until the "jumping to bootstrap code", then it just sit here.i  	 Any idea?a I broke my motherboard?-   D.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.016 ************************