0 INFO-VAX	Thu, 10 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 18      Contents:3 "Instapoll" at www.compaqworkinggroup.org Not Found  Alignment failure of DLT drives # Re: Alignment failure of DLT drives  Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment RE: Alpha Itanium Advertisment RE: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment RE: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment RE: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Amazing, and a good laugh , Anyone using a IDE -> SCSI bridge under VMS?P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went   wrong   at P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went   wrong   at > Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the> Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the Re: C-Kermit versus ALL-IN-1< RE: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories undD Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories under SYS$USERSH Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories under SYS$USERSH Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories under SYS$USERSG Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories underSYS$USERS % Re: Clustering two PWS600 via a BA356 2 Re: Compaq still tries to spin Alphacide both ways RE: DCL whish list Re: decnet /osi AND set hostK Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat  Estimates K Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat  Estimates J Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat EstimatesJ Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat EstimatesJ Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat EstimatesP Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimates Estim  Re: Getting DEC ADA 3.5A to work  Re: Getting DEC ADA 3.5A to work  Re: Getting DEC ADA 3.5A to work. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!. Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 How many Fibre Channel - Multiple Hosts/4 Fabrics 5 Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V 5 Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V " Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monster& Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monster looping process  Re: looping process  Re: looping process : Re: New DS20E With Networking Problem - How To Focus Where5 Re: OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 9 ! Re: PWS500au, parallel port, DCPS ! Re: PWS500au, parallel port, DCPS ! RE: PWS500au, parallel port, DCPS " Re: Reel to Reel recorder question: Re: Samsung ordered to pay $73.5 million for mismanagement SCSI to IDE bridges ; Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products P Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The d' TCPIP: logging of all incoming requests + Re: TCPIP: logging of all incoming requests + Re: TCPIP: logging of all incoming requests  Re: Using "-" in a Filename  Re: Using "-" in a Filename  Re: Using "-" in a Filename B Re: VAX 4000/100 with Correctable Memory Errors resulting in crashB Re: VAX 4000/100 with Correctable Memory Errors resulting in crash
 VMS resources  Re: VMS resources # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha " Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure? Windows version of DCL?  Re: Windows version of DCL? P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The    demise    of P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise    of com  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:55:57 -0000 - From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) < Subject: "Instapoll" at www.compaqworkinggroup.org Not Found7 Message-ID: <919273FF8warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>    Got this email today:   E At www.compaqworkinggroup.org the newest instapoll question has been   added:E The OpenVMS Group currently funds Monster.com to maintain an OpenVMS  I Career Center at http://openvms.monster.com/, which is available through  F the OpenVMS portal (http://www.openvms.compaq.com/). Has this service  been useful to you? : - I've never heard of it, but I am interested in using it. - It's of no use to me. ? - Haven't used it yet, but if I need it, it will be invaluable. 7 - Tried to find a job through it, but not successfully. / - Found a job through it.  A wonderful service! < - Tried to fill an opening through it, but not successfully.5 - Filled an opening through it.  A wonderful service! G Visit us now to vote on this instapoll, and to let your voice be heard!   
 -- snip --  M When I visit www.compaqworkinggroup.org, I can't find "instapoll" anywhere.   E The "Issue Voting" section talks about voting on issues, but doesn't   actually let you do so.    Color me puzzled in Manhattan,   ws   --     Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)  The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 15:41:05 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ( Subject: Alignment failure of DLT drives8 Message-ID: <ejcr3u8j6a18qq7vr57d7smb098cdit0tk@4ax.com>  A Has anyone else suffered premature alignment failure of TZ89 type F drives or libraries. We have two TL891 mini-libraries - one on VMS andF one on an NT server. Both have now suffered failures requiring a driveB replacement within 2 years. The VMS system drive had been in use 5E hours a day for 18 months = 5 *365*1.5 which is less than 3000 hours. C Two cartridge swaps per day. The NT system runs for around 12 hours C per day and failed in 1 year with the same symptoms. Auto-calibrate E sees an existing tape as blank. During a recent CDR test the recovery : specialists said they commonly saw alignment problems with TZ89/DLT7000 drives.  E As MTBF is quoted at 30,000 tape motion hours it would appear we have A had two drives fail at around 1/10th that figure (the VMS systems A drive the tape continuously, NT stop/starts so the NT system also 4 failed after something of the order of 3,000 hours).  D Anyone else seen similar? Note you will never see this problem until you try and read an old tape.  -- Alan   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:24:50 -0700 (MST) " From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>, Subject: Re: Alignment failure of DLT drivesG Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0201100954160.10981-100000@athena.csdco.com>    Alan,   K I've had TZ89s since 1/98 and never have had trouble getting a file back.   H It happened that I had to retrieve a file recently written by one of theJ oldest drives and it was OK.  That one has been used 3-4 hours a day for 4> years = 4400 - 6000 hours.  It's in a TL810 upgraded to TL894.  J It does seem worth it add some automated checking in the light of what you
 have seen.  
 John Nebel    & On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Alan Greig wrote:   > C > Has anyone else suffered premature alignment failure of TZ89 type H > drives or libraries. We have two TL891 mini-libraries - one on VMS andH > one on an NT server. Both have now suffered failures requiring a driveD > replacement within 2 years. The VMS system drive had been in use 5G > hours a day for 18 months = 5 *365*1.5 which is less than 3000 hours. E > Two cartridge swaps per day. The NT system runs for around 12 hours E > per day and failed in 1 year with the same symptoms. Auto-calibrate G > sees an existing tape as blank. During a recent CDR test the recovery < > specialists said they commonly saw alignment problems with > TZ89/DLT7000 drives. > G > As MTBF is quoted at 30,000 tape motion hours it would appear we have C > had two drives fail at around 1/10th that figure (the VMS systems C > drive the tape continuously, NT stop/starts so the NT system also 6 > failed after something of the order of 3,000 hours). > F > Anyone else seen similar? Note you will never see this problem until > you try and read an old tape.  > -- > Alan >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:27:47 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> ' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment 8 Message-ID: <3iuq3u8ut5g57aabukskl4828c12dd5f05@4ax.com>  2 On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:40:37 -0500, "Sue Skonetski"# <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote:    > 2 >EMEA Inform Magazine current issue (see web site)A >http://emea-files.eur.compaq.com/ebg/Hps/10710-INFORM_Compaq.pdf   ( Can't get this URL to work (DNS failure)    J >We are porting OpenVMS to the Itanium architecture and for our Tru64 UNIX  ' Well at least VMS is mentioned for once      -- Alan   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:55:26 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk' Subject: RE: Alpha Itanium Advertisment + Message-ID: <a1jvfe$4tj$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>    In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B65@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> writes: >JF, > I >What are your thoughts on Sun suddenly dropping one of its platforms for 	 >Solaris?  > 5 > http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2002/0108sunintel.html 4 >   Sun to drop Intel support in Solaris 9, 01/08/02 > C >"This tradition, however, will come to a close with the release of C >Solaris 9 in the first half of this year. Sun decided the costs of B >support, such as bug tracking and software patches, for Solaris 99 >running on Intel was not worth the cost to the company."  > H >"We are focusing more on our bottom line," said Graham Lovell, directorH >of product marketing for Solaris at Sun. "We need to focus on immediate >revenue where possible."  > F >What are your thoughts on Sun dropping support for this platform with >less than 6 months notice?=20  M I believe I read that they will be supporting Solaris 8 on intel for at least 
 two years.N Future Solaris versions on IA32 were always going to be dicy. Solaris on SparcM is now a 64bit operating system and Solaris on IA64 was dropped sometime ago. . Solaris on intel was always the poor relation.M Having said that the way this has suddenly appeared (and at the same time the O free download of Solaris 8 for Intel has disappeared - haven't checked this but G that's what they're saying in comp.unix.solaris)  does make you wonder  H whether Sun has just hired some public relation's experts from Compaq :)  N (I was expecting Sun to announce a port to AMD Hammer later this year and then@  phase out the 32bit code (and hence IA32 support) in Solaris ).  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University          > 7 >What do you think these Customers next step should be?  > 	 >Regards,  >  >Kerry Main  >Senior Consultant >Compaq Canada Corp. >Professional Services >Voice: 613-592-4660 >Fax  :  819-772-7036  >Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com  >  >  >-----Original Message----- 5 >From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]  >Sent: January 9, 2002 5:49 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com( >Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment >  >  >Sue Skonetski wrote: 4 >> EMEA Inform Magazine current issue (see web site)C >> http://emea-files.eur.compaq.com/ebg/Hps/10710-INFORM_Compaq.pdf  > G >Is that the issue that has the word "Commitment"  near "Compaq" on the  >cover ? >I giggled when I saw that.  > F >> By teaming with Intel to transition to the Itanium architecture, we >areI >> giving customer long-term, secure processor development road map.  And  >sinceC >> it is expected to be the most widely used 64-bit technology, our 
 >customers9 >> will benefit from a greater range of software options.  > C >Interesting. Now Compaq restricts the IA64 to the most widely used  >64-bit F >technology. And having killed Alpha, it still "hopes" that Intel will	 >have the I >most widely used one. That measn that Power and Sparc have a bloody good H >chance at winning. And this means that Compaq erred when it put all its >eggs  >into the Intel basket.  >  > F >Sorry Compaq, no matter how you spin it, the Alphacide makes you look	 >bad. You F >are better off just mentioning that the projects to port  VMS and NSK >to IA64H >are still funded and will inform customers when that IA64 thing becomesI >reality, until then they can rest assured that Alpha will continue.  And  >Compaq should keep it at that.  > D >Using the word "commitment" on the front page reminds everyone that >Compaq F >broke its commitment with Alpha. That is a word Compaq needs to avoid >for aC >few years. If/when IA64 does surpass Alpha and customers really do  >prefer F >IA64, then you can start to brag about Itanium/IA64/whatever its name >will be >that week.  > I >Until then, Compaq should remain low key on that issue because it simply > >reminds customers of the huge blunder Compaq made on June 25. > C >> Our applications partners are teaming with us to support you the  >transition 
 >> including:  >>=20 E >> ORACLE SAP, SAS,PEOPLESOFT, IONA, BEA, IDX, BMC SOFTWARE, COMPUTER ? >> ASSOCIATES, SYBASE, SANCHEZ, GIFTS, REAL SOLUTIONS, ENTRUST,  >REALNETWORKS, >> ROLF & NOLAN, INFORMIX  > G >Humm, does Real Networks offer any VMS based software ? Since Tru64 is  >dead,I >why would Real Network port its server software to HPUX when it probably - >already has its softwrae running on HP UX ?.  > A >Same goes for SAP. Why would SAP be involved with Compaq to port 
 >something to F >IA64 ? It already is involved with HP, so it has no point in poorting	 >anything C >from Compaq's products to IA64. (Unless Compaq has struct a secret 
 >agreement >to port SAP to VMS).  >  > G >> We are porting OpenVMS to the Itanium architecture and for our Tru64  >UNIX ? >> customers, we will be offering an enterprise UNIX to deliver  >outstanding, >> capabilities on the Itanium architecture. > E >Again, don't rub it in. If someone chose the less popular Tru64 overo	 >HPUX, it F >is because they really needed the superior technology of Tru64 at the >expenseA >of having a less popular UNIX with fewer applications.  If, on a  >technologytA >basis, HP UX is inferior to Solaris and/or IBM's AIX, then thoseu >customers whoE >chose Tru64 for its superior technology will move to the second besth >(either@ >IBM or SUN), not the one with the technologically weakest Unix. >t >eH >It was a huge blunder for Compaq to burn its bridges before the wedding >withn >Compaq was consumed.l > E >> For those in the process of acquiring or adding to the AlphaServero	 >systems,nI >> Compaq is providing investment protection options that include speciale9 >> financing, deferred-payment leasing programs and more.  >sG >Read: we realised that for the next year nobody wants to by any alphasu >unlessf> >they really have to , so we have to provide major incentives. >sF >I wonder if Compaq would be willing to protect an Alpha investment by >paying:G >for the port to Sun Solaris once Compaq pulls the plug on Alpha ? (eg:F >iftG >customer does not want to go IA64 , but wants to go Alpha for the next  >fewH >years, would the incentives allow for the customer to buy Alpha now and >theniF >get a break to move to Sun later when the plug is pulled from Alpha's >lifed >support ?)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:15:54 -0500e+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>p' Subject: RE: Alpha Itanium AdvertismentsT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B68@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   JF,t  H >>> Most people using Solaris on Intel-based servers are in universities and notPE large companies, Haff said. Sun had looked to keep Solaris popular in  thePE university community as a way to familiarize students with  Unix. Theo risingF popularity of Linux in these communities is now doing this job for Sun and + reduced the burden of promoting Solaris.<<<e  F Now, I wonder if Compaq had come out with a similar statement if folks9 would be so willing to believe such marketing type stuff.n  = Fwiw, the end user Sun on Intel Customers seem to think a tad   differently about this decision-2 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/23598.html, "User fury as Sun puts x86 Solaris to sleep"  G Article quote - ""You've killed the dream, Sun. New admins *DON'T* have 7 a way to learn about Sun on the cheap," wrote one user.   ? "Mindshare is a terrible thing to waste," punned another. "It'seC expensive to develop, hard to measure and difficult to correlate towC earnings, yet very important to long term success. This will be the 9 biggest casualty if Solaris x86 is abandoned." end quote.c   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanti Compaq Canada Corp.w Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660c Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca] Sent: January 9, 2002 7:39 PMt To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comc' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertismente     "Main, Kerry" wrote:  D > "This tradition, however, will come to a close with the release ofD > Solaris 9 in the first half of this year. Sun decided the costs ofC > support, such as bug tracking and software patches, for Solaris 9 : > running on Intel was not worth the cost to the company."  G > What are your thoughts on Sun dropping support for this platform withc > less than 6 months notice?    E 1- has sun indicated that it will stop supporting existing version ofl Solaris 
 on Intel ?E The announcement means that no new versions will be relased on Intel,  but thelD article does allude to 7 years of support for Solaris 8 on intel.=20    F Note that such an announcement was once made for 68000 based Macintosh1 computers (new version would be PowerPC only).=20    The key statement is:a ##H Most people using Solaris on Intel-based servers are in universities and notrE large companies, Haff said. Sun had looked to keep Solaris popular ina thetE university community as a way to familiarize students with  Unix. The  risingF popularity of Linux in these communities is now doing this job for Sun andn( reduced the burden of promoting Solaris. ##    B In other words: those running Solaris  on Intel weren't generating profits,B and they have the option of moving to Sparc to keep Solaris or use Linux,6 especially if they are poor and can't affor to pay for support/enterprise level services.   H This is quite different from HP killing MPE with no new versions at all, andaE Compaq killing Tru64 along with Alpha. Solaris continues to live withl
 new versions.i    F I think that the decision makes sense, especially if supporting 32 bit 8086@ with all its architectural quirck caused more headaches than the	 generated > revenus. The fact that enterprises chose to build solaris on a proprietary C SPARC chip and that SUN rules the unix world is a strong message toe CompaqF that Compaq could have succeeded with Alpha just as Sun succeeded with Sparc.  ? My initial impression was "Sun wants to stop supporting Intel'sn
 profits". And C the timing corresponds roughly with Intel trying to shove IA64 downl people's4 throats. With only HP and Compaq blindly following).  D Considering that Sun does have low cost desktops that run Solaris on Sparc,F the loss of Intel 8086 support doesn't change much on the grand scheme of4 Solaris things (there is an equivalent replacement).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:36:42 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertismentt, Message-ID: <3C3D98DF.54ACE7B8@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:I > Article quote - ""You've killed the dream, Sun. New admins *DON'T* havee9 > a way to learn about Sun on the cheap," wrote one user.   J Doesn't Sun have some sparc-based workstations that are truly affordable ?  K You know, this is no different than Apple stopping the release of new MACos  for the 68000 machines.a  L It does outline the fact that VAX owners have been lucky to get VMS upgradesN all this time. Although in all fairness, VAX users haven't *really* gotten theI upgrades. For instance, the TCPIP services still lack PPP support on VAX,o5 there is no ODS5 etc. (but hey we still have patch !)7  O Little mentioned, but Compaq announced that Linux 7.2 would be ported to Alpha.e  M I do not know the history of Sun's support of the 8086, but now that the 8086sM is being eclipsed by 64 bit machines, perhaps Sun is just moving forwards and / doesn't want Solaris to be hindred by the 8086.(   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:39:24 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertismente, Message-ID: <3C3D9980.8E6CA3F2@videotron.ca>   one additional thing:f  J Sun's announcemnent of desupport of the 8086 in no way clouds its image ofL being committed to Solaris and there aren't really many who speculate on Sun preparing to drop Solaris.  N That is the major difference with Compaq where customers see many Compaq movesJ (or lack thereof) as indications Compaq doesn't see a long term future norG potential for growth for VMS, so every announcement that is negative ors? overtly omits VMS is seen as yet another step towards oblivion.   I This is not the case for SUN because it doesn'T have the image that it isw  workint towards dumping SOlaris.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:56:32 -0500m+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>-' Subject: RE: Alpha Itanium Advertisment:T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B69@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  @ >> Doesn't Sun have some sparc-based workstations that are truly affordable ?<<<   G Sure, just throw away your existing investment in x86's (some likely in D the 1.5Ghz+ range) as there won't be any support for them in the newE version of the OS being released in the 1st half this year - hence myy0 earlier comment about less than 6 months notice.  H >>> I do not know the history of Sun's support of the 8086, but now thatB the 8086 is being eclipsed by 64 bit machines, perhaps Sun is justF moving forwards and doesn't want Solaris to be hindred by the 8086.>>>  F Sun also does not support any 64bit x86 based alternatives for Solaris
 either.=20   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior ConsultantT Compaq Canada Corp.B Professional Servicesa Voice: 613-592-4660u Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca] Sent: January 10, 2002 8:37 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com0' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertismento     "Main, Kerry" wrote:D > Article quote - ""You've killed the dream, Sun. New admins *DON'T* have9 > a way to learn about Sun on the cheap," wrote one user.T  H Doesn't Sun have some sparc-based workstations that are truly affordable ?r  E You know, this is no different than Apple stopping the release of newc MACos  for the 68000 machines.s  C It does outline the fact that VAX owners have been lucky to get VMSe upgradesC all this time. Although in all fairness, VAX users haven't *really*n
 gotten theD upgrades. For instance, the TCPIP services still lack PPP support on VAX,5 there is no ODS5 etc. (but hey we still have patch !)h  H Little mentioned, but Compaq announced that Linux 7.2 would be ported to Alpha.  H I do not know the history of Sun's support of the 8086, but now that the 8086@ is being eclipsed by 64 bit machines, perhaps Sun is just moving forwards and/ doesn't want Solaris to be hindred by the 8086.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:36:29 -0500n5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>r' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertismenti2 Message-ID: <ypg9PLh6nEiYOIOpk5nyRtzL7cY0@4ax.com>  * Uh ... where Andrew to spin this one?  ;-)   David R. Beattyd  0 On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:57:34 -0500, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote:   >JF, >rI >What are your thoughts on Sun suddenly dropping one of its platforms fort	 >Solaris?i > 5 > http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2002/0108sunintel.html04 >   Sun to drop Intel support in Solaris 9, 01/08/02 >rC >"This tradition, however, will come to a close with the release of C >Solaris 9 in the first half of this year. Sun decided the costs oftB >support, such as bug tracking and software patches, for Solaris 99 >running on Intel was not worth the cost to the company."r >nH >"We are focusing more on our bottom line," said Graham Lovell, directorH >of product marketing for Solaris at Sun. "We need to focus on immediate >revenue where possible."I >iF >What are your thoughts on Sun dropping support for this platform with >less than 6 months notice?  > 7 >What do you think these Customers next step should be?e > 	 >Regards,  >o >Kerry Mainu >Senior Consultant >Compaq Canada Corp. >Professional Services >Voice: 613-592-4660 >Fax  :  819-772-7036s >Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com  >  >  >-----Original Message-----m5 >From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]M >Sent: January 9, 2002 5:49 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com( >Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment >2 >0 >Sue Skonetski wrote:24 >> EMEA Inform Magazine current issue (see web site)C >> http://emea-files.eur.compaq.com/ebg/Hps/10710-INFORM_Compaq.pdfE >5G >Is that the issue that has the word "Commitment"  near "Compaq" on the  >cover ? >I giggled when I saw that.  >,F >> By teaming with Intel to transition to the Itanium architecture, we >areI >> giving customer long-term, secure processor development road map.  And  >sinceC >> it is expected to be the most widely used 64-bit technology, ouro
 >customers9 >> will benefit from a greater range of software options.s >aC >Interesting. Now Compaq restricts the IA64 to the most widely usedc >64-bitsF >technology. And having killed Alpha, it still "hopes" that Intel will	 >have thepI >most widely used one. That measn that Power and Sparc have a bloody good H >chance at winning. And this means that Compaq erred when it put all its >eggse >into the Intel basket.. >  > F >Sorry Compaq, no matter how you spin it, the Alphacide makes you look	 >bad. You6F >are better off just mentioning that the projects to port  VMS and NSK >to IA64H >are still funded and will inform customers when that IA64 thing becomesI >reality, until then they can rest assured that Alpha will continue.  Ando >Compaq should keep it at that.e >oD >Using the word "commitment" on the front page reminds everyone that >CompaqiF >broke its commitment with Alpha. That is a word Compaq needs to avoid >for aC >few years. If/when IA64 does surpass Alpha and customers really doy >prefergF >IA64, then you can start to brag about Itanium/IA64/whatever its name >will be >that week.' >xI >Until then, Compaq should remain low key on that issue because it simplye> >reminds customers of the huge blunder Compaq made on June 25. >3C >> Our applications partners are teaming with us to support you theS >transitionn
 >> including:  >>  E >> ORACLE SAP, SAS,PEOPLESOFT, IONA, BEA, IDX, BMC SOFTWARE, COMPUTERs? >> ASSOCIATES, SYBASE, SANCHEZ, GIFTS, REAL SOLUTIONS, ENTRUST,P >REALNETWORKS, >> ROLF & NOLAN, INFORMIX  >xG >Humm, does Real Networks offer any VMS based software ? Since Tru64 isl >dead,I >why would Real Network port its server software to HPUX when it probablya- >already has its softwrae running on HP UX ?.  >bA >Same goes for SAP. Why would SAP be involved with Compaq to port 
 >something tomF >IA64 ? It already is involved with HP, so it has no point in poorting	 >anything/C >from Compaq's products to IA64. (Unless Compaq has struct a secreto
 >agreement >to port SAP to VMS).c >r > G >> We are porting OpenVMS to the Itanium architecture and for our Tru64t >UNIXt? >> customers, we will be offering an enterprise UNIX to delivere >outstanding, >> capabilities on the Itanium architecture. >eE >Again, don't rub it in. If someone chose the less popular Tru64 overl	 >HPUX, itrF >is because they really needed the superior technology of Tru64 at the >expenseA >of having a less popular UNIX with fewer applications.  If, on a  >technology A >basis, HP UX is inferior to Solaris and/or IBM's AIX, then those. >customers whoE >chose Tru64 for its superior technology will move to the second bests >(either@ >IBM or SUN), not the one with the technologically weakest Unix. >  >SH >It was a huge blunder for Compaq to burn its bridges before the wedding >with  >Compaq was consumed.n >nE >> For those in the process of acquiring or adding to the AlphaServer 	 >systems,fI >> Compaq is providing investment protection options that include speciale9 >> financing, deferred-payment leasing programs and more.k > G >Read: we realised that for the next year nobody wants to by any alphase >unlessh> >they really have to , so we have to provide major incentives. >aF >I wonder if Compaq would be willing to protect an Alpha investment by >payingrG >for the port to Sun Solaris once Compaq pulls the plug on Alpha ? (eg:A >ifaG >customer does not want to go IA64 , but wants to go Alpha for the nextm >fewH >years, would the incentives allow for the customer to buy Alpha now and >thenmF >get a break to move to Sun later when the plug is pulled from Alpha's >lifeu >support ?)    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:07:31 -0500,+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>A' Subject: RE: Alpha Itanium AdvertismentNT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B6A@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   David,  4 re: >> Uh ... where Andrew to spin this one?  ;-)<<<  - Actually, Andrew wrote the following article:w2 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/53/23598.html* User fury as Sun puts x86 Solaris to sleep# By Andrew Orlowski in San Franciscor  % Oh .. you mean the "other" Andrew ...    :-)d  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanto Compaq Canada Corp.f Professional Serviceso Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----< From: David Beatty [mailto:David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com] Sent: January 10, 2002 8:36 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertismentt      * Uh ... where Andrew to spin this one?  ;-)   David R. Beattys  0 On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:57:34 -0500, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote:   >JF, >oE >What are your thoughts on Sun suddenly dropping one of its platforms  forc	 >Solaris?, > 5 > http://www.nwfusion.com/news/2002/0108sunintel.htmla4 >   Sun to drop Intel support in Solaris 9, 01/08/02 >4C >"This tradition, however, will come to a close with the release of C >Solaris 9 in the first half of this year. Sun decided the costs of B >support, such as bug tracking and software patches, for Solaris 99 >running on Intel was not worth the cost to the company."i >hH >"We are focusing more on our bottom line," said Graham Lovell, directorH >of product marketing for Solaris at Sun. "We need to focus on immediate >revenue where possible."a >gF >What are your thoughts on Sun dropping support for this platform with >less than 6 months notice?=20 >f7 >What do you think these Customers next step should be?n >e	 >Regards,w >e >Kerry Maino >Senior Consultant >Compaq Canada Corp. >Professional Services >Voice: 613-592-4660 >Fax  :  819-772-7036p >Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.coms >e >o >-----Original Message-----w5 >From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]  >Sent: January 9, 2002 5:49 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com( >Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment >e >u >Sue Skonetski wrote:s4 >> EMEA Inform Magazine current issue (see web site)C >> http://emea-files.eur.compaq.com/ebg/Hps/10710-INFORM_Compaq.pdfr >MG >Is that the issue that has the word "Commitment"  near "Compaq" on theB >cover ? >I giggled when I saw that.@ >eF >> By teaming with Intel to transition to the Itanium architecture, we >areD >> giving customer long-term, secure processor development road map. And  >sinceC >> it is expected to be the most widely used 64-bit technology, ouro
 >customers9 >> will benefit from a greater range of software options.t >eC >Interesting. Now Compaq restricts the IA64 to the most widely usedo >64-bitnF >technology. And having killed Alpha, it still "hopes" that Intel will	 >have thefD >most widely used one. That measn that Power and Sparc have a bloody goodH >chance at winning. And this means that Compaq erred when it put all its >eggsc >into the Intel basket.i >r >.F >Sorry Compaq, no matter how you spin it, the Alphacide makes you look	 >bad. YouuF >are better off just mentioning that the projects to port  VMS and NSK >to IA64H >are still funded and will inform customers when that IA64 thing becomesD >reality, until then they can rest assured that Alpha will continue. And  >Compaq should keep it at that.n > D >Using the word "commitment" on the front page reminds everyone that >Compaq F >broke its commitment with Alpha. That is a word Compaq needs to avoid >for aC >few years. If/when IA64 does surpass Alpha and customers really do6 >prefer:F >IA64, then you can start to brag about Itanium/IA64/whatever its name >will be >that week.a >oB >Until then, Compaq should remain low key on that issue because it simply> >reminds customers of the huge blunder Compaq made on June 25. >,C >> Our applications partners are teaming with us to support you thet >transition 
 >> including:  >>=20fE >> ORACLE SAP, SAS,PEOPLESOFT, IONA, BEA, IDX, BMC SOFTWARE, COMPUTERg? >> ASSOCIATES, SYBASE, SANCHEZ, GIFTS, REAL SOLUTIONS, ENTRUST,l >REALNETWORKS, >> ROLF & NOLAN, INFORMIX  >hG >Humm, does Real Networks offer any VMS based software ? Since Tru64 ise >dead,@ >why would Real Network port its server software to HPUX when it probably- >already has its softwrae running on HP UX ?.o >eA >Same goes for SAP. Why would SAP be involved with Compaq to portl
 >something toaF >IA64 ? It already is involved with HP, so it has no point in poorting	 >anythingnC >from Compaq's products to IA64. (Unless Compaq has struct a secretn
 >agreement >to port SAP to VMS).  >  >tG >> We are porting OpenVMS to the Itanium architecture and for our Tru64n >UNIXi? >> customers, we will be offering an enterprise UNIX to deliverS >outstanding, >> capabilities on the Itanium architecture. >lE >Again, don't rub it in. If someone chose the less popular Tru64 overc	 >HPUX, itiF >is because they really needed the superior technology of Tru64 at the >expenseA >of having a less popular UNIX with fewer applications.  If, on ai >technology A >basis, HP UX is inferior to Solaris and/or IBM's AIX, then those  >customers whoE >chose Tru64 for its superior technology will move to the second beste >(either@ >IBM or SUN), not the one with the technologically weakest Unix. >s > H >It was a huge blunder for Compaq to burn its bridges before the wedding >withl >Compaq was consumed.  >nE >> For those in the process of acquiring or adding to the AlphaServer 	 >systems,sA >> Compaq is providing investment protection options that includee speciale9 >> financing, deferred-payment leasing programs and more.t > G >Read: we realised that for the next year nobody wants to by any alphaso >unlesst> >they really have to , so we have to provide major incentives. > F >I wonder if Compaq would be willing to protect an Alpha investment by >payingtG >for the port to Sun Solaris once Compaq pulls the plug on Alpha ? (eg:d >if G >customer does not want to go IA64 , but wants to go Alpha for the nextr >fewH >years, would the incentives allow for the customer to buy Alpha now and >then F >get a break to move to Sun later when the plug is pulled from Alpha's >life  >support ?)e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:33:58 GMT0# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>f' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment:> Message-ID: <qDh%7.162922$pa1.48529993@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>  6 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B68@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. ..    K "...Sun had looked to keep Solaris popular in the university community as atI way to familiarize students with  Unix. The rising popularity of Linux inpI these communities is now doing this job for Sun and reduced the burden of  promoting Solaris."e  H So, Linux use is is just a skip & jump away from Solaris use. OpenVMS isG more 'unix' like than ever....why not promote its use instead of Linux?C      C "....Mindshare is a terrible thing to waste," punned another. "It'syC expensive to develop, hard to measure and difficult to correlate toaC earnings, yet very important to long term success. This will be thef9 biggest casualty if Solaris x86 is abandoned." end quote.g    D Wasn't this statement operative when DEC/Compaq pissed away its vast university installed base?L So where is the ACTIVE promotion of OpenVMS on-campus and elsewhere to thoseL small users whose mindshare is important? Where's the $1000 Alpha to support such initiatives?r  A Mindshare is something that is built-up over a period of years byn- advertising, promotion, marketing, and trust.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:09:04 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>p' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertismento, Message-ID: <3C3DAE8E.FBAE16CF@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:I > Sure, just throw away your existing investment in x86's (some likely intF > the 1.5Ghz+ range) as there won't be any support for them in the newG > version of the OS being released in the 1st half this year - hence myo2 > earlier comment about less than 6 months notice.  B But the current version will continue to be supported for 7 years.  < Compaq had made serous commitments for Alpha and borke them.  L What is important to try to know is whether Sun had made similar commitmentsN about Solaris on the 8086 or whether the 8086 was there as a goodie that wan't' protrayed as crtical or key to Solaris.d  E I do not know how many still have Solaris on the 8086, but if Sun hadoH indications that most would be switching to Linux anyways, then is thereH really a point for Sun to continue to produce new versions on the 8086 ?  G Sun is cutting the low end inferior so it can concentrate on the better K platform. This is the opposite of what Compaq did with Alpha. It killed the6? good one, hoping that the intel bloatwar would eventually work.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:29:04 -0800 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> ' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertismentr+ Message-ID: <3C3DC150.3110B994@caltech.edu>i   "Main, Kerry" wrote:  I > Article quote - ""You've killed the dream, Sun. New admins *DON'T* have09 > a way to learn about Sun on the cheap," wrote one user.- >   D And that user is to a large extent wrong, at least if you're talkingP about a new machine.  I built the Sun Sparc (500 Mhz IIe) system we're using now from= a Sun Microelectronics AX1105-500 motherboard which cost $775rL plus tax from Marathon International plus a bunch of bog standard PC parts I boughtP from the least expensive sources I could find on the net.  The only cost premiumL was for that motherboard.  There was a graphics option (which we didn't buy)E which cost little more than a good PC graphics card (which admittedlyAE would have outperformed the Sun card).  One can easily assemble a Sun E this way for less than $1500, although ours was a bit more due to the N 1GB of memory it contains.  Buying one preassembled would be more expensive of course.h (But why bother?)t  L So while it wasn't free (ie, a recycled PC) it wasn't very expensive either.  P The crying over Solaris ia32 is silly anyway since for cheapo Unix on a PC linuxG and BSD are arguably better choices than Solaris anyway as there's moregM software available, better hardware support, and multiple "vendors" to choose- from.  -   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:57:49 GMTA4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium AdvertismentA> Message-ID: <xCk%7.65189$Sj1.26642494@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  F Sun also does not support any 64bit x86 based alternatives for Solaris either.W   Regards,  
 Kerry Main  C No they do not, and IMHO that decision will come back to haunt them/	 big-time!o   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:27:51 +0000 (UTC)1 From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertismenta+ Message-ID: <a1kmf7$c1i$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>y  u In article <xCk%7.65189$Sj1.26642494@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:  >  >tG >Sun also does not support any 64bit x86 based alternatives for Solarisn >either. >a	 >Regards,i >t >Kerry Mainc >aD >No they do not, and IMHO that decision will come back to haunt them
 >big-time! >I  H Well it probably is still a bit early for Sun to announce that they are ! porting Solaris to AMD Hammer. :) I As to Itanium they had Solaris ported to it before just about anyone elseoM had ported their OS but decided not to continue with it - which looks like a s very good decision.0  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:44:58 -0700 (MST)M" From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>" Subject: Amazing, and a good laughG Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0201100942220.10981-100000@athena.csdco.com>n   Thanks to the Reg for this:e  : http://petemoss.com/spamflames/ShifmanIsAMoronSpammer.html  
 John Nebel   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 08:00:18 -0800+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> 5 Subject: Anyone using a IDE -> SCSI bridge under VMS?h( Message-ID: <a1kdqi0bif@drn.newsguy.com>  B Several IDE -> SCSI bridges - devices that supposedly allow you to: use "cheap and big" IDE drives on a SCSI bus - have becomeE surprisingly affordable (~$100) in the last few months.  For example:t  F   http://www.dirtcheapdrives.com/cgi-bin/GProductViewer.exe?ARS-2000UB   andy  *   http://www.cardaysupply.com/bridges.html  I Has anyone used such a thing with success under VMS?  If so, what version., and platform, and was it the stock DKDRIVER?   Tim.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 15:46:55 GMT( From: Ronan Flood <ronan@noc.ulcc.ac.uk>Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went   wrong   at a, Message-ID: <a1kd1f$qcu$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk>  # On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:44:15 -0500,s( John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote:  6 > And I remain astonished that I didn't find out until4 > 16 years later that EDT had been ported to TOPS-208 > in 1985, even though I worked on TOPS-20 software from6 > 1975 to 1978, and on EDT from 1981 to 1983.  I think5 > if we had all stayed in the Mill I would have found  > out about the port sooner.  0 IIRC, EDT was ported to TOPS-20 by people at the. Large Systems Skills Centre in Leeds, England./ If so, that might have some bearing on your not  hearing about it.U   -- e:                       Ronan Flood <R.Flood@noc.ulcc.ac.uk>8                         working for but not speaking forC              Network Services, University of London Computer CentreuK      (which means: don't bother ULCC if I've said something you don't like)S   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 02 13:52:28 GMTN From: jmfbahciv@aol.comNY Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went   wrong   at e* Message-ID: <a1kdr7$17$2@bob.news.rcn.net>  , In article <a1kd1f$qcu$1@canard.ulcc.ac.uk>,,    Ronan Flood <ronan@noc.ulcc.ac.uk> wrote:$ >On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:44:15 -0500,) >John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> wrote:v >e7 >> And I remain astonished that I didn't find out untily5 >> 16 years later that EDT had been ported to TOPS-20a9 >> in 1985, even though I worked on TOPS-20 software froma7 >> 1975 to 1978, and on EDT from 1981 to 1983.  I thinkr6 >> if we had all stayed in the Mill I would have found >> out about the port sooner.  >c1 >IIRC, EDT was ported to TOPS-20 by people at the / >Large Systems Skills Centre in Leeds, England.a0 >If so, that might have some bearing on your not >hearing about it. >s9 That's about the time when DECUS started going down hill,e< isn't it? (w.r.t. the type of Digital involvement).  We used< to get a lot of grapevine info from the people who were sent> to DECUSes.  When programmers stopped going, the only feedback: we got was via the suits' memoes.  I don't think they knew how to swizzle beer.  t   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:16:47 +0000f4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for theo8 Message-ID: <frpq3uc9cm6j3fv7mne564ag1gjkhakpsl@4ax.com>  K On 9 Jan 2002 15:30:58 CDT, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.514360.killspam.00c9 (Wayner Sewell) wrote:  O >One of the strangest crashes I ever analyzed was back in the early days of thetN >vax, somewhere around 1981.  There was a bug in the microcode that caused theM >progam counter to not be backed up to the beginning of the instruction aftermN >the fault.   The byte count was off and the program counter wound up pointingI >somewhere in the middle of the instuction upon restart.   This caused anaP >"opcode reserved to digital" fault when the processor misinterpreted one of the >operands as the opcode.  :-)e >tK >I don't remember which instuction it was or what circumstances caused this  >condition to occur.    H There is/was a security hole relating to a microcode bug, which could beG exploited by a very small macro program, which I have (probably wisely)-I forgotten where I ever had a copy stashed.  The hole lived on well beyond>L the life of the CPU which exhibited the erroneous behaviour, due to the need for compatibility.  K For obvious reasons, I will now shut up.  Although the skills of the personrF who found this problem are so finely tuned I doubt if many other could reproduce his hack.e     	Johnd   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 08:14:32 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thee3 Message-ID: <3$7bfJZm$CL+@eisner.encompasserve.org>w  n In article <svO5cnuturXi@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.514360.killspam.00c9 (Wayne Sewell) writes: > P > One of the strangest crashes I ever analyzed was back in the early days of theO > vax, somewhere around 1981.  There was a bug in the microcode that caused the,N > progam counter to not be backed up to the beginning of the instruction afterO > the fault.   The byte count was off and the program counter wound up pointinguJ > somewhere in the middle of the instuction upon restart.   This caused anQ > "opcode reserved to digital" fault when the processor misinterpreted one of they > operands as the opcode.  :-) > L > I don't remember which instuction it was or what circumstances caused this > condition to occur.  t  A    IIRC it was a math instruction the the Fortran compiler didn'taB    generate.  (INDEX or POLYx?)  We had one program which had thatG    instruction in it and used to use it so us non-privilged users couldrF    "reboot" the machine when we needed to.  I only saw one 11/780 with-    this bug, so I assume DEC fixed it pronto.t  D    I assume something in VMS 1.x was also causing the OPDEC fault toH    lead to a fatal bugcheck instead of an image wind down.  I also never8    saw another system running anything earlier than 2.2.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 09:14:30 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.514360.killspam.00c9 (Wayne Sewell)4G Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thet. Message-ID: <clmGYEWEmX9y@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  c In article <3$7bfJZm$CL+@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:.p > In article <svO5cnuturXi@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.514360.killspam.00c9 (Wayne Sewell) writes: >> tQ >> One of the strangest crashes I ever analyzed was back in the early days of theeP >> vax, somewhere around 1981.  There was a bug in the microcode that caused theO >> progam counter to not be backed up to the beginning of the instruction aftereP >> the fault.   The byte count was off and the program counter wound up pointingK >> somewhere in the middle of the instuction upon restart.   This caused an.R >> "opcode reserved to digital" fault when the processor misinterpreted one of the >> operands as the opcode.  :-)a >> aM >> I don't remember which instuction it was or what circumstances caused thise >> condition to occur.   > C >    IIRC it was a math instruction the the Fortran compiler didn'tt# >    generate.  (INDEX or POLYx?)       N POLY rings a bell.  Seems like I was farting around with CRC generation at theK time.  It had to be something rarely used, or it would have been discovered M during field test.  I would think that a microcode problem with MOVL would bem found pretty quick.  :-)    " >We had one program which had thatI >    instruction in it and used to use it so us non-privilged users couldAH >    "reboot" the machine when we needed to.  I only saw one 11/780 with/ >    this bug, so I assume DEC fixed it pronto.p    H It had probably been fixed before it happened to me.  Unfortunately, theL company I was working for at the time insisted on doing its own hardware and> software maintenance, so they sometimes lagged behind on ECOs.   Wayne  -- oO ===============================================================================hM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxB: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)RO ===============================================================================eN Sparky (from Bring It On): "In cheerleading, we throw people in the air.  Fat  	people don't go as high."   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:04:34 -0000 , From: "Bob Knowles" <bob.knowles@compaq.com>% Subject: Re: C-Kermit versus ALL-IN-1a2 Message-ID: <mrf%7.497$5Y4.14494@news.cpqcorp.net>  6 > Does anybody out there still use (or have) ALL-IN-1?L Indeed. Nearly 6000 ALL-IN-1 VAX Servers have current service contracts; andH this figure doesn't include the more recent generations of Compaq OfficeG Server. Multiply that  by the number of users per server, and you get aIC pretty healthy figure. So the products are alive and well and underhL development; Office Server V6.1 will be going to Field Test in the (NorthernL Hemisphere) Spring. For more information, sign up for the Mail and Messaging
 newsletter attB http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/offsvr/offsvr_signup.htmlH Now's a good time to sign up, as the latest edition is coming later this month.  L Thanks for the thought, Frank, and apologies for the mild rant. We (and manyK users) appreciate having a new C-Kermit. Compaq Mail and Messaging is awareoE of the issue, and tests will be in hand when the download's complete.n   bF   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:05:01 -0500s* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>E Subject: RE: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories unda- Message-ID: <0033000047425276000002L062*@MHS>d  % =0AI think we already know THAT, Davey ( oh happy New Year BTW) -  " SYS$MANAGER =3D SYS$USERS:[SYSMGR]  4 I suspect that somebody (who needs to be hunted down3 and physically punished) has set up a global symbolf8 that's stepping on SET (so they could change directories< from their login dir without having to type in those painful, eight keystrokes that comprise "SET DEF "...  / SHOW SYM/GLOB S* should clarify things greatly.A   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETa) Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:25 PM-B To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETE Subject: RE: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories unds    4 How is SYS$MANAGER defined, please?  David R. Beatty  1 On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:40:55 -0500, "Rob Reffner"s' <robreffner@removeearthlink.net> wrote:F   >All-@ >eH > I have encountered a unique situation on a Alpha 2100 running VMS 7.1= -2> >where any directory I try to SET DEFAULT to I can't. Example: >h >> SET DEF SYS$MANAGER1 >%DCL-I-INVDEF, SYS$USERS:[SYSMGR] does not existt >  > H >This type of thing happen no matter where is try to go. Has anyone see= n this >before? >u >a >Thanks, >r >u >Rob Reffner >o >' >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:40:55 -0500M4 From: "Rob Reffner" <robreffner@removeearthlink.net>M Subject: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories under SYS$USERS > Message-ID: <Fyi%7.9585$wd4.1215246@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com>   All-  H  I have encountered a unique situation on a Alpha 2100 running VMS 7.1-2= where any directory I try to SET DEFAULT to I can't. Example:i   > SET DEF SYS$MANAGERe0 %DCL-I-INVDEF, SYS$USERS:[SYSMGR] does not exist    L This type of thing happen no matter where is try to go. Has anyone seen this before?s     Thanks,i     Rob Reffneri   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:15:35 -0500n5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>-Q Subject: Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories under SYS$USERSp2 Message-ID: <H8w9PJNbmuaPA2DBr67h4gOmZCWP@4ax.com>  4 How is SYS$MANAGER defined, please?  David R. Beatty  1 On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:40:55 -0500, "Rob Reffner"r' <robreffner@removeearthlink.net> wrote:y   >All-h >.I > I have encountered a unique situation on a Alpha 2100 running VMS 7.1-2f> >where any directory I try to SET DEFAULT to I can't. Example: >l >> SET DEF SYS$MANAGER1 >%DCL-I-INVDEF, SYS$USERS:[SYSMGR] does not existl >n >uM >This type of thing happen no matter where is try to go. Has anyone seen thisa >before? >. >  >Thanks, >t >  >Rob Reffner >  >t >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:27:19 +01008, From: "Bart Zorn" <B.Zorn@TrueBit.nospam.nl>Q Subject: Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories under SYS$USERSe* Message-ID: <a1kitq$gqa$1@news1.xs4all.nl>  ? "Rob Reffner" <robreffner@removeearthlink.net> wrote in messaget8 news:Fyi%7.9585$wd4.1215246@atlpnn01.usenetserver.com... > All- >cJ >  I have encountered a unique situation on a Alpha 2100 running VMS 7.1-2? > where any directory I try to SET DEFAULT to I can't. Example:6 >o > > SET DEF SYS$MANAGERn2 > %DCL-I-INVDEF, SYS$USERS:[SYSMGR] does not exist >- >-I > This type of thing happen no matter where is try to go. Has anyone seena this	 > before?   B You will have to do a SHOW LOGICAL/FULL SYS$MANAGER to start with.  = It seems to me there is something wrong with this definition."  	 Bart Zorn    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:14:54 -0600 (CST),& From: Drew Shelton <drew@sematech.org>P Subject: Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories underSYS$USERS- Message-ID: <01KCWK5KMO4A009WRD@SEMATECH.Org>i  I > I have encountered a unique situation on a Alpha 2100 running VMS 7.1-2 > >where any directory I try to SET DEFAULT to I can't. Example:   >> SET DEF SYS$MANAGER1 >%DCL-I-INVDEF, SYS$USERS:[SYSMGR] does not existt    M >This type of thing happen no matter where is try to go. Has anyone seen thish >before?     Show us the output of:   $ show logical sys$manager    L ============================================================================6 Drew Shelton                         drew@sematech.org9 VMS Systems Manager                  office: 512-356-7575u9 Sematech                             fax:    512-356-7600  2706 Montopolis DriveoK Austin, TX 78741-6499                I speak for myself only, not Sematech. B     "OpenVMS is today what Microsoft wants Windows NT v8.0 to be!"I                                                         - Compaq, 9/22/98eL ============================================================================   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 12:19:59 -0600+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)h. Subject: Re: Clustering two PWS600 via a BA3563 Message-ID: <IldxzO3YPgbw@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  U In article <3C3CBE50.97E50A48@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes: P > I have at home two PWS600 running 7.3 (for the moment. Then when everything isK > ok, I'll install the Hobbyist CD as soon as I find an SCSI CD-ROM drive).b > " > The systems are DTL01 and DTL02. > A > I have plugged a BA356 with two SCSI cables, one to each Alpha.1 > Q > When one cable only is plugged, I can see my disks, with the DTL01$DKA100 names M > and so on. When I plug both ends, any system won't boot and I get a messagen& > "waiting for PKA0something to poll".  B This is before the OS gets involved, and usually indicates a SCSI = problem.  Make sure the SCSI controllers in each machine haveR= different IDs.  Make sure the personality module on the shelfd? matches that of the controllers (SE, FWD, LVD, etc).  Make surer8 there is the "right amount" of termination on the bus.    ? "Y" cables are nice for this type of set up (BN21W-xx).  If youl= put the base of the "Y" at each machine you can then detach ae( machine without breaking the SCSI chain.  O > Is it an ALLOCLASS problem? Or I just cannot do what I want with this BA box?r9 > (none of the systems are defined as cluster nodes yet).-  < ALLOCLASS problems will show up later when you try to form aC cluster.  You'll get a different error message when that happens.  D  ? This combination _does_ work as I have four production clustersh? that have been using this type of setup successfully for years.mA Well, actually I use two controllers per machine and two shelves,-< with shadowing between shelves, but your "one controller one, shelf" plan is a subset of my working setup.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:59:54 +0000 (UTC)e/ From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee> ; Subject: Re: Compaq still tries to spin Alphacide both waysh3 Message-ID: <1010656792.467529@haldjas.folklore.ee>s  0 In comp.arch Jon Hart <jon@daemon.com.au> wrote:K >> Things have tended towards the MIPS end of the spectrum, but they've hadr > toJ >> add interlocks... what happens when the pipeline's longer in the second >> generation?  N > Is there an issue with distributing applications in pCode and then compiling > the-K > pCode to native code on installation? The code will need to be recompiledu > when the cpu is upgraded.n   See also ANDF. s  H > In the days of DOS asking this of the OS may have been too much, but II > think that with modern OS'es it is reasonable to ask them to be able toe > manageM > all of that, and cope with a full reinstall without destroying your system.s  C Or possibly, you could just write the app in java and use a JIT 8-)r   > --  
 > Jon Hart   --   	Sander    +++ Out of cheese error +++9   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:05:14 +0100 (MET) & From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> Subject: RE: DCL whish list 6 Message-ID: <200201100705.IAA06071@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  I I would like to have floating point arithmik. Also there should be a case  instruction.   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:42:06 +0100t= From: Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@contrastmediagroep.nl>c% Subject: Re: decnet /osi AND set host 5 Message-ID: <3C3D6FFE.46F07181@contrastmediagroep.nl>-   "a.carlini" wrote:  4 > Since SET HOST 10.45 just works, and it looks like/ > you are using NSP, it's likely that this is ad0 > problem with the local namespace setup and not% > a more complicated routing problem.e > , > I don't remember exactly how the old LOCAL/ > n/s works, so I don't know how to persuade it0* > to reload it's data from that text file,& > nor how to trace what is going on in' > the name service (I think it precedes & > the CDI$TRACE work, but just in case > tryO >         $ MC CDI$TRACE$ > just before your SET HOST BGNT and > see what happens ...)o  $ No, CDI$TRACE predates this version.  = As far as I can remember you have to run some command file intE sys$manager after changing de DECNET_LOC_NODE_DEFINITIONS.TXT file. I 3 don't remember the name but it must be something inI sys$manager:*.local*.com   Regards,   Oswald   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:54:07 GMTw4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>T Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat  Estimates> Message-ID: <3zk%7.65187$Sj1.26641621@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C3C9070.6934F106@swissonline.delete.ch...u <snip>H > The Jan 16th announcement will be interesting in a general sense but I% > expect few, if any, real surprises.t >r  F There might be some surprising and positive news on the WildFire sales
 front. ;-}   >o
 > John McLeanf   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:39:08 -0500a5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> T Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat  Estimates2 Message-ID: <Igl%7.527$5Y4.14708@news.cpqcorp.net>  I John McLean wrote in message <3C3DDC73.90582B9A@swissonline.delete.ch>...b >n      snip   E >BTW, a few weeks back we had someone here saying that Wildfire salesc@ >were way down and that warehouses were surprisingly empty.  ;-) >u    K Hmm.  And somehow contradictory.  You would expect to find warehouses to beeE suprisingly full, if sales were way down - or empty if sales were up.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:26:45 -0500c5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>lS Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimatesi2 Message-ID: <a5Y9PH8lr9mN=njDxnfPylt5foZU@4ax.com>   * snicker *s  6 Will be interesting to find out the real deal, though.. Maybe it will convince the Compaq stockholders not to sell the ship!l   David R. Beatty   @ On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 21:55:30 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:y  k >In article <YFY7PIvxc4c8MZAjnA=qxRMaiFVJ@4ax.com>, David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> writes:  >>9 >>I heard about the profit announcement on CNN yesterday.b5 >>It would be interesting to know where the increased( >>revenue came from. >> >>David R. Beatty7 >Z6 >Certainly not from cutting back on VMS advertisement.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:29:48 -0000S- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)hS Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat EstimatesT7 Message-ID: <91927C662warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>m  B terryshannon@mediaone.net (Terry C. Shannon) wrote in <SGW_7.13093' $DG5.120623@rwcrnsc53.ops.asp.att.net>:n   > 3 >"Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in messagee3 >news:9k8o3u4s5165gnoqffa47qthujgdstovvb@4ax.com... 3 >> On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:28:49 -0500, David Beattyc, >> <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote: >> >> >; >> >I heard about the profit announcement on CNN yesterday.h7 >> >It would be interesting to know where the increased  >> >revenue came from. >>H >> Could this be the one-off gigantic sale to the US military I've heardA >> of? Will certainly be interesting to see the reported figures.u >iH >That it will. Ironically or otherwise, stronger than anticipated peeceeE >sales are said to be at least partially attributable to the apparent 9 >Earnings Surprise. More will become known on January 16.n >h >P  F Last I heard, CPQ loses money on each PC it sells.  So perhaps it was 3 *weak* PC sales that contributed to the good news !e   ws   -- .   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)9 The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:56:06 GMTh4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>S Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimates5> Message-ID: <WAk%7.65188$Sj1.26642562@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  : "Warren Spencer" <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote in message1 news:91927C662warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100...oD > terryshannon@mediaone.net (Terry C. Shannon) wrote in <SGW_7.13093) > $DG5.120623@rwcrnsc53.ops.asp.att.net>:t >  > >d5 > >"Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in messagef5 > >news:9k8o3u4s5165gnoqffa47qthujgdstovvb@4ax.com...w5 > >> On Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:28:49 -0500, David Beattyt. > >> <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote: > >> > >> >= > >> >I heard about the profit announcement on CNN yesterday.>9 > >> >It would be interesting to know where the increasedh > >> >revenue came from. > >>J > >> Could this be the one-off gigantic sale to the US military I've heardC > >> of? Will certainly be interesting to see the reported figures.D > > J > >That it will. Ironically or otherwise, stronger than anticipated peeceeG > >sales are said to be at least partially attributable to the apparentd; > >Earnings Surprise. More will become known on January 16.t > >c > >e >oG > Last I heard, CPQ loses money on each PC it sells.  So perhaps it wasa5 > *weak* PC sales that contributed to the good news !e  I Good point... with some qualifications. The Q makes money on Evo and iPAQd2 and Deskpro peecees. Presarios are another matter.  H I have very good reason to believe that high-end AlphaServers (includingL those running VMS) may have performed better than either CPQ or Conventional Wisdom had expected...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 19:24:51 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>=Y Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimates Estim)5 Message-ID: <3C3DDC73.90582B9A@swissonline.delete.ch>x   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:t > @ > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message1 > news:3C3C9070.6934F106@swissonline.delete.ch...= > <snip>J > > The Jan 16th announcement will be interesting in a general sense but I' > > expect few, if any, real surprises.o > >o > H > There might be some surprising and positive news on the WildFire sales > front. ;-} >   G I really hope there's good sales outside the niche markets.  That mightL2 encourage Compaq to consider a broader approach.    D BTW, a few weeks back we had someone here saying that Wildfire sales? were way down and that warehouses were surprisingly empty.  ;-);  E The problem is of course that all the upheavals in the last 180+ daysf& have caused a fair bit of uncertainty.  H It seems pretty clear that the statement by Capellas in early June aboutE a 180-day transformation was only made because he had already plannedbG the transfer of Alpha, was deep in discussions with HP and had probablyrD started discussions with at least few of the customers for the 4 bigF deals that I mentioned yesterday.  It also didn't take a genius to seeG that some customers would move to leasing (ie. Services) until the dustn settled.     John   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:49:10 +0100i$ From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch>) Subject: Re: Getting DEC ADA 3.5A to worki% Message-ID: <3c3d5587$1@news.post.ch>e  K Keep in mind, that Compaq Ada83 will not make it to Itanium. This makes you " effort even more questionable :-).  C "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragi= news:fU8%7.154228$lV4.26394606@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com... 3 > Zane H. Healy <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote:NK > > What I can't figure out is how on earth SYS$TEST:ADA$IVP.COM manages tod	 > > work.s > J > Mystery solved.  It just goes to show how dangerous someone that doesn'tD > know what they're doing can be.  I had HELLO.ADA in my Ada LibraryF > directory.  Once I moved it, and myself out of thier it compiled and linked > just fine! >SJ > Finally!  I've been fighting this for way longer than I care to confess! >- > Zane >n   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 12:47:59 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen);) Subject: Re: Getting DEC ADA 3.5A to work:3 Message-ID: <IGddLLEYFjUs@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  x In article <fU8%7.154228$lV4.26394606@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> writes:  J > Mystery solved.  It just goes to show how dangerous someone that doesn'tD > know what they're doing can be.  I had HELLO.ADA in my Ada LibraryM > directory.  Once I moved it, and myself out of thier it compiled and linkedC > just fine!  C As a general rule with Compaq Ada, pay no attention to that library H directory behind the curtain (except to select it with ACS SET LIBRARY).   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 12:51:07 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)r) Subject: Re: Getting DEC ADA 3.5A to workn3 Message-ID: <oI6gajfIi372@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  L In article <3c3d5587$1@news.post.ch>, "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> writes:M > Keep in mind, that Compaq Ada83 will not make it to Itanium. This makes you1$ > effort even more questionable :-).  F That certainly seems like FUD.  His stated goal was to try programmingD in Ada on a VAX.  Compaq has said there will be _an_ Ada compiler onE Itanium VMS.  While it is true this little lesson in not putting your G source files into the library directory will not be directly applicable D to any other Ada compiler, the programming he did for Hello World is certainly applicable.j  F My presumption was that his next step would be to enhance the program,E rather than look for new ways to run into problems with the compiler.M   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 01:29 CST0' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)@7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!u- Message-ID: <10JAN200201291168@gerg.tamu.edu>n  . "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes...; }"Michael A. Foley" <mikiefoley@yahoo.com> wrote in message-* }news:u3p4522p89pc22@corp.supernews.com... }  }....T } M }>     Let us all remember that a cheap PC in 1990 dollars was $4k, not $799.r } J }That recollection does not jibe well with the Leading Edge XT I bought inI }1987 for $1900.  Granted, it only sported a 10 MB drive, but you did sayr	 }'cheap'.o }  }- billj  G Of course, accounting for inflation your $1900 in 1987 money would costR you about $2600 in 2002 money.  D In 1988 the list price of a microVAX II with a TU81+ tape drive, andD RA81 disk, a TK50 tape, ethernet, and a couple of other small thingsB was, with VMS, roughly $100,000 (which would be something close to $175,000 in today's money).n  D Who would pay $175,000 for the closest equivalent today, a DS10 withJ a single 9GB disk and a DAT tape drive? (I have one, in the XP900 variant,I sitting right here in front of me - it cost less than 5% of that amount).h   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:45:50 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 7 Subject: Re: Hey Intel, VMS is your ticket to high end!-8 Message-ID: <cvnq3u4vbtca2s7sgqelse007gri8401eu@4ax.com>  F On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 06:45:47 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:   >o; >"Michael A. Foley" <mikiefoley@yahoo.com> wrote in message4* >news:u3p4522p89pc22@corp.supernews.com... >a >... >iM >>     Let us all remember that a cheap PC in 1990 dollars was $4k, not $799.E >LJ >That recollection does not jibe well with the Leading Edge XT I bought inI >1987 for $1900.  Granted, it only sported a 10 MB drive, but you did say 	 >'cheap'.H  F In 1986/87 I bought an Amstrad 8086 (4Mhz?) for 999 ($1500) with 10MB> HD and floppy, colour CGA enhanced display (AT&T 6300/OlivettiB graphics compatible). In 1990.I bought an Amstrad 386 (12Mz?) with. 100MB HD, VGA display for about the same cost.  B I was amused to see that Amstrad (cheap consumer electronics) haveB just re-entered the computer business with their latest integratedB hardware telephone/emailer/browser for dummies. The latest versionC also  runs Sinclair/Amstrad  Spectrum games. "Jet Set Willy" lives!    >- bill  >  >    -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 07:04:48 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)-: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-kwut9qKrn4yF@localhost>c  F On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:13:41, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:  . > In article <3C3B6BCD.3B96AD13@jetnet.ab.ca>,/ > Ben Franchuk  <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:hF > >I think file names should be a..zA..Z0..9_  Why else would you need > >more? > C > Well, my surname name is "da Silva". Not "daSilva" or "da-Silva".C > ( > What about someone like "Ren Gring"? > L > I wish Bell labs had been able to productise Plan 9. You could have a fileJ > name that contained latin, cyrillic, kana, and aramaic components if you	 > wanted.  >   F Well why name's Weatherall, VMS calls me 'WEATHERALL' and Solaris (or < our setup thereof) insists on 'weather'. Neither worries me ? particularly but I know which I prefer. But then I'm biased :-)s   For W2K, I'm we27857.i   -- m Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:11:43 +1300o From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz>V: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <V5b%7.883$Qz1.109089@news.xtra.co.nz>  5 "Peter da Silva" <peter@taronga.com> wrote in messageY, news:a1inh0$17m1$1@citadel.in.taronga.com...D > In article <zl3%7.412650$C8.29990374@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,+ > Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:bI > >However, a file system is *truly* broken if it *distinguishes* betweenS uppereI > >and lower case in file names (rather than just preserving the case thee name> > >was created with and performing case-insensitive look-ups). > I > How do you in general determine what the uppercase form of an arbitraryuF > character is? What is the uppercase form of "/home/rne"? What about1 > about ""? Should that match a file named "SS"?  >   L But... *can* you have that single character as a valid German word? Or startG a word with it? If not, then your question is more than a bit moot - it  becomesdL a question of just using some sort of algebraic notation that has no concept as such of lower/upper case.-   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 07:05:03 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-dPzgF1QJ5zcO@localhost>n  B On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 22:10:37, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  wrote:   <snip>  F >> Alternatively, perhaps the problem is that the same syntax is being used forM > different purposes without adequate explanation - i.e., that in the commandAN > rename *.c *.x the second argument LOOKS like a 'wildcard specification' butL > in fact is not one (any more than '-' in a Unix command always announces a
 > switch). > K > If one adopts this attitude, there's no inconsistency in DCL's treatment, < > just a possibly-confusing use of identical constructs withN > positionally-dependent meaning (but *any* operation which accepts, say, bothN > an input spec and an output spec often uses the same constructs for both butI > with different meanings).  But since those who actually use this syntaxsI > don't seem to be confused by it, if there's no issue of semantic puritye* > involved then is there any real problem?  * True and just to point out that to achive          rename *.c    *,x-   I normally enter         Rename *.c  .x  D This shows the way it works but you have to know how the concept of ? 'sticky defaults' and resultant file names work. (I think Bill 3C does...) When considered in that context, some of what some people cD have describe as inconsistent behaviour suddenly becomes consistent  again.  B How often do I do it? At least once a week and I have the concept E embedded in a lot of the DCL Batch files that I use for doing Q/A of h my products.   -- / Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 07:05:04 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-BBGrMMFdksbd@localhost>   ; On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 22:35:39, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:    > 7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messager> > news:zl3%7.412650$C8.29990374@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > , > > "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote in message/ > > news:xKY_7.46$vb1.10144@news1.iquest.net...  > >a > > ...o > >c5 > > > Broken OSes cannot handle upper and lower case.- > > L > > Arguably correct - and VMS has fixed this with ODS-5 (I suspect it couldP > > have fixed it in ODS-2 from the beginning, had it chosen to preserve case inO > > the names it stored, and for all I know it may have done so somewhere along  > > the way before ODS-5). > >iP > > However, a file system is *truly* broken if it *distinguishes* between upperO > > and lower case in file names (rather than just preserving the case the name N > > was created with and performing case-insensitive look-ups).  Unix has been' > > broken in this fashion since Day 1.n > >}K > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD.   Many computer languages do, and T > it is a superset to be able to distingush.   If any given userland program doesn'tL > want to distingush, then there are ways to do that on good OSes (including > at the command level.)  A Distingushing upper/lower case is BAD!! Either at OS or language 5 level.  @ Now why don't we just agree to disagree on this. 'Cos those who E believe the latter are never going to convince those who believe the   former or vice versa.i   -- p Cheers - Dave.   PS.   = If filenames could be differentiated by the colours of their oE characters, would that be a GOOD thing? Thoroughly possible in these  D days of 16bit character codes. Just think of the possibilities. RED C for the file being worked on, GREEN for the complete one, BLUE for u intermediate, draft etc...   I am just joking, I think.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:27:26 +1300> From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz>n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <Ekb%7.889$Qz1.109771@news.xtra.co.nz>  : "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message/ news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-BBGrMMFdksbd@localhost...A= > On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 22:35:39, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:. >> > >i9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message>@ > > news:zl3%7.412650$C8.29990374@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...I > > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD.   Many computer languages do,> and F > > it is a superset to be able to distingush.   If any given userland program doesn't-C > > want to distingush, then there are ways to do that on good OSesc
 (including > > at the command level.) >:B > Distingushing upper/lower case is BAD!! Either at OS or language > level. >sA > Now why don't we just agree to disagree on this. 'Cos those whonF > believe the latter are never going to convince those who believe the > former or vice versa.  >  > -- > Cheers - Dave. >r > PS.> >o> > If filenames could be differentiated by the colours of theirF > characters, would that be a GOOD thing? Thoroughly possible in theseE > days of 16bit character codes. Just think of the possibilities. REDtD > for the file being worked on, GREEN for the complete one, BLUE for > intermediate, draft etc...  5 But MOST important of all the transparent (invisible) ! file names for the deleted stuff.    >? > I am just joking, I think. >   5 Now, that would be a good joke but, the way trends go 9 I'm sort of afraid of actually seeing it implemented somes time soon (no smiley here).a   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:19:45 GMTo* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECB Message-ID: <lgb%7.414359$C8.30469130@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  ( "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote in message+ news:fu3%7.99$vb1.13438@news1.iquest.net...y >d7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message > > news:zl3%7.412650$C8.29990374@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > >:, > > "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote in message/ > > news:xKY_7.46$vb1.10144@news1.iquest.net...k > >s > > ...m > >o5 > > > Broken OSes cannot handle upper and lower case.1 > >1L > > Arguably correct - and VMS has fixed this with ODS-5 (I suspect it couldH > > have fixed it in ODS-2 from the beginning, had it chosen to preserve case innI > > the names it stored, and for all I know it may have done so somewherer alongp > > the way before ODS-5). > >lJ > > However, a file system is *truly* broken if it *distinguishes* between upperjJ > > and lower case in file names (rather than just preserving the case the nameI > > was created with and performing case-insensitive look-ups).  Unix hasu been' > > broken in this fashion since Day 1.  > >t) > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD.r  % No, it is not.  Not in a file system.       Many computer languages do,  ( Computer languages are not file systems.    and, > it is a superset to be able to distingush.  I It is not a superset unless it includes the ability *not* to distinguish:i  otherwise, it is just different.  (    If any given userland program doesn'tL > want to distingush, then there are ways to do that on good OSes (including > at the command level.)  J I don't know how to perform case-insensitive file operations at the OS APIB level in Unix (or how to do so using a shell):  could you explain?   >tG > If an OS (or filesystem) is restricted to UPPER CASE only, then sillya escape mechanisms % > are needed to support the superset.a  D That is not the issue under discussion:  I already agreed above thatE handling mixed-case names is desirable, and supporting them in no way-! requires lookup case-sensitivity.   .    This unnecessarily lengthens filenames whenF > full upper/lower case is desirable.   Not only that, a fully escaped filename will likely! > have more length limitations!!!e >gK > There is NO REASON to fix that limitation deep in the OS/Filesystem code,t when the1 > limitation can be programmed at the user level.n  ? There are very good reasons to make such limitations intrinsic:i  @ 1.  This standardizes the system's behavior across applications.  L 2.  This conforms to the ways people usually use names (I'll leave aside theG question of whether programmers are people, since I'm not interested in L discussing the pros and cons of case-sensitive computer language identifiersA here:  as I said above, computer languages are not file systems).e  I Yes, some languages don't use the concept of case - but we're clearly nottI talking about those here because with them there is no issue.  And indeed H case or similar concepts aren't always easy to be insensitive to in someB languages (witness the complexities of Unicode collation), but theB discussion here is not apparently about implementation difficulty.  F It is not sensible to argue for case-sensitivity in file names withoutJ arguing for support of arbitrary binary byte strings (or even bit strings)I in file names.  Such an argument presupposes that the primary use of fileuL names is by entities other than human beings.  While such non-human entitiesG are welcome to use file systems, I don't believe file systems should be1I designed for their convenience at the expense of ours, especially as mostRL such non-human use that can't easily use case-insensitive names (e.g., usingK decimal numbers as names avoids case issues entirely) tends to be using thef; file system as a substitute for some more appropriate tool.s   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:00:07 GMTl, From: francini1026@mac.com (John J Francini): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECK Message-ID: <francini1026-ya02408000R1001020302190001@news.ne.mediaone.net>o  J In article <f48%7.128$vb1.17427@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:  C >Regarding broken OSes, that was other people making the claim thatvC >I answered.   I tended to mention broken OS/filesystems that don't D >properly handle case sensitivty and try to fold upper case to lowerA >case (vice versa) during matching operations.   Filenames should > >essentially be reasonable forms of text data.   Maybe a count@ >field for a filename would be better than null termination, and >things like that. >eA >If you have case sensitivity at the OS/filesystem level, you cantC >implement case insensitivity easily (if you wish.)  I suggest thati@ >it isn't worthwhile, because many current programming languages  >tend to train case sensitivity.  I The problem with this is that you're making an assumption that the targetvI USER of an operating system is also a PROGRAMMER, and is therefore "used"aJ to case sensitivity.  Real end-users of consumer systems are NOT "used" to case sensitivity.   eF Case-sensitive filesystems in OSes intended for _consumer_ consumptionH (rather than _programmer_ consumption) introduce unneeded complexity andF brittleness to a user interface.  Remember always that the computer isH intended to be a tool for the user; the user is not there to bend to the will of the computer.r  K Suppose someone -- a financial analyst -- works on a spreadsheet file nameduI "April Sales Data" on MacOS X, which is UNIX under the hood, but uses thesI HFS+ filesystem as the default. (It also has UFS available as an option.)o  I He saves it to disk.  He then later makes a word-processing document thatr@ references that spreadsheet (using Microsoft-like object linkingI facilities), and, instead of using a GUI-oriented file selector, he typeseJ the filename in directly.  He makes an error typing it in -- enters "april sales data" instead.  H The case-folding HFS+ filesystem will match with the "intended" file andG everything will work.  The analyst will be happy because he can get his- document assembled.   H If the partition used UFS, his operation would fail and he'd scratch hisI head trying to figure it out.  When the difference in case is pointed outuF to him, he'd curse the computer for not being able to "figure it out".     >mA >When I was an ignorant, first-time C user, I was bit by the caseuD >sensitivity, but I was using backwards OSes before then that didn't' >distinguish in most normal situations.   H When I was a first-time C user, I was bit by case sensitivity.  This wasJ back in 1981, doing C (using a non-DEC Whitesmiths' compiler) on a VAX/VMSJ system.  C's case sensitivity felt ludicrously out of place after years of2 using case-folding OSes and programming languages.  J I felt that it introduced an entire new class of coding errors, simply dueD to the fact that variable and keyword case were required to match.    K The language also felt really out of place on a VMS system, which was fully0> case-folding everywhere else (including the native languages).   I hated it then, in 1981.   G I hate it now.  I will ALWAYS hate it. I resent the fact the Unix is so H blastedly case-sensitive in the shells -- largely because the shells areK glorified program executors with control structures.  Since much of what is5J typed to the shell are simply filenames (cryptic ones at that, compared toI the English verbs of true "command languages", like DCL), and since these8K filenames are in lower case, they suffer from the UNIX "lower case, whetherr you want it or not" approach.h  F I feel in retrospect that case-folding programming languages (like theJ FORTRAN, MACRO-10, COBOL, and BASIC that I learned before C) didn't imposeI what I call "the tyranny of case-matching" that C and its ilk, along with - most UNIX filesystems, inflict on developers.   I I could write a routine in, say FORTRAN, in all lower case.  I could then'K write another one that referred to variables in the first in upper case, if I I wished, and be completely comfortable in the knowledge that case didn'ti matter.i  F Writing C (or its descendents), on the other hand, subjects you to theB tyranny. Perish forbid that you might forget that, say, the OpenGLJ "glTexImage3D()" routine begins with a lower-case "gl", and you code it asG "GLTexImage3D()".  The linker will say "Duh?  I can't find that routinea anywhere!".   F The calls in the UNIX libraries, taken together, comprise an amazinglyK varied set of different naming standards.  Some are completely lower-case. 2J Some are StudlyCapsMixedCase. Some use underscores. Some embed the name ofG the subsystem as an abbrieviation in the first couple of letters in thejK example above.  The rules on what's capitalized in the subsystem prefix arecF different from subsystem to subsystem.  (OpenGL uses "gl", while the XK Toolkit uses "Xt" -- inconsistent case usage.)  There's enough of this that I you not only have to memorize the NAME of any given call that you want tosG use, but you also have to remember that particular call's (or family oft7 calls') distinctive and arbitrary capitalization rules.b  A I will gladly trade the "flexibility" and alleged freedom of caset0 sensitivity for the forgiveness of case folding.  G [As an aside: I think it's funny, really, that a language like C, whichEJ allows programmers all kinds of ways to sidestep data type enforcement andK to write sloppy code, maintains iron discipline in the _naming_ of objects: G "Sure, you can cast that pointer as a (signed) int and slap a bad value-K into it, but you damn well better get the case of its name right!"  There'sV( a fundamental inconsistency here, imho.]  J Consequently, I consider languages, command interpreters, filesystems, andB OSes that inflict "the tyrrany of case-matching" on their users orJ developers to be _fundamentally_ broken.  Period.  I have yet to see _any_@ argument over the past 21 years that has convinced me otherwise.  
 John Francini    -- s
 John Francinib  # Subtract Ten Twenty-Six for e-mail.pP +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+P | "I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a disgrace;    |P |  that two or more are called a law firm; and that three or more become       |P |  a Congress.  And by God I have had _this_ Congress!"                        |P |                                                        -- John Adams         |P +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:35:13 +0100rE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>-: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC* Message-ID: <3C3D6051.A826652@mediasec.de>  J > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD. Many computer languages do [...]   Answer two questions:J  C Q1. Who is going to choose and use those names in almost all cases?m  G A1. The human user of the system. A program would do just was well withsJ     an arbitrary (say 128-bit pseudo-random) number, or some index        C intrinsic to the system (an inode in Unix, an FID in VMS, the indexc2     into the symbol table in a computer language).  G Q2. What suits a human user best, what reduces his error rate the most?cH     This is a human factors question that has little to do with computer     science or engineering.u   A2. Names should     - be hierarchicaln%     - have a redundant representationm     - use soft/fuzzy matches  2 Case-sensitive lookups violate the last two items.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:03:53 +0000s% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <qvlq3u4ndpbql2s0qq8kgdke8cvoimu3db@4ax.com>  ) On 09 Jan 2002 12:36:44 -0800, Eric Smithv) <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:y  + >"John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net> writes:e >> Even TOPS10 allowed '*'.  >wJ >Yes, well, TOPS-10 allowed any 36-bit word to be used as a base filename,A >and any 18-bit halfword *except* "SFD" (encoded in sixbit) as ans >extension.   D Reminds me of students under TOPS-20 who used to put CR and/or other= control sequences in file names to help hide them. Or so theyhE thought... Students would set files invisible, alter protection codesnD to ;P000000 and encode CR or ESC sequences to cause a DIR command toC overwrite the preceding line etc. Of course we scanned specificallyaF for files like this! TOPS-20 would allow any ASCII character in a file! name if it was prefixed by CTRL-V0 -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:10:47 +0000o% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>d: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <h9mq3uc2rdkkgi536rstnshaecln2qu1a5@4ax.com>  ) On 09 Jan 2002 17:28:11 -0800, Eric SmithY) <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:     C >I seem to recall that PIP (Peripheral Interchange Program) allowed E >some means for the entry of filenames and extensions in octal, which C >was useful if you accidentally created a file with an unusual namenF >and needed to rename or delete it.  The typical example is a filename- >beginning with one or more space characters.o  B There was a MAIL system in common use on TOPS-10 systems on the UKE academic JANET X25 network. User interface was a subset of TOPS-20 MMtC but files were stored in a master spool directory with one file foroE each PPN. The PPN was actually stored as the file name. Some studentssC figured out that these mail files were not protected by default and D used the PIP octal syntax for file names to just list them directly. TYPE wouldn't work. .   D >[This is from memory of using the stuff 21 years ago, so I may well >have the details wrong.]i   -- Alan   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 02 09:37:25 GMTS From: jmfbahciv@aol.com : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1jut1$h3o$1@bob.news.rcn.net>o  0 In article <qhhepvgz7t.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,7    Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:b. >Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> writes:F >> I think file names should be a..zA..Z0..9_  Why else would you need >> more? >r% >What, you're not going to allow "."?i  ; [emoticon slaps poster's right ring finger]  It's very nicee$ to have delimiters strictly defined.  : Just a note from a programmer...One of the easiest ways to9 figure out if your program has problems is to look at theA; filenames it wrote to.  If the filename was "garbage", i.e.t; characters other than letters and/or numbers, you knew thatr9 you had some instruction in that program farting where it 
 shouldn't.   /BAH     /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.a   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 02 09:41:01 GMTo From: jmfbahciv@aol.come: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1jv3q$h3o$2@bob.news.rcn.net>   0 In article <qhk7urgt2b.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>,7    Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote:.+ >"John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net> writes:  >> Even TOPS10 allowed '*'.e >aJ >Yes, well, TOPS-10 allowed any 36-bit word to be used as a base filename,A >and any 18-bit halfword *except* "SFD" (encoded in sixbit) as ane >extension.s  > But we didn't include that <ahem>flexibility in our standards.; There is a difference between what one can do and what one o8 should do.  The fact that we tried to adhere to our own ; standards was one of the sanest things we did.  Documentingt; those standards so that customers doing their own thing wasD5 our agreement with them that we wouldn't break their h; programs _because_ we would adhere to the stated standards.h   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 06:59:58 -0500n' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net>d: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC* Message-ID: <3C3D823E.25C5DBBE@Empire.Net>  ) Robert Bonomi wrote (in very small part):n  5 In 68/69 I inadvertently triggered an IBM mainframe  -5 hardware design oversight (it couldnt even really be 0. called a 'bug'), that resulted in the affected4 installation being down "hard", for nearly a week.  4 Every similiar installed system _world-wide_ got an 1 emergency ECO at IBMs expense as a result of thatc5 incident, to insure it didn't happen to anybody else.e  3 I've seen *recurring* mainframe crashes due to the w8 position of the Moon.  Well, actually it was the 'tide' 6 that was the proximate cause, but that _is_ driven by 3 the Moon's position. <grin>  It took the engineers . _weeks_ to run that one down,    John Sauter responded:  4 These sound like a couple of great war stories.  How about some more details?%     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 07:40:43 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <TgDTzQHR5SD5@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  Q In article <fu3%7.99$vb1.13438@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:(  K > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD.   Many computer languages do, andm, > it is a superset to be able to distingush.  .    Many computer langauges are poorly crafted.  H    The only criteria I will accept is how good the tehcnique is at humanH    interface.  Case insensitive systems are demonstrably better at humanF    interface than case sensitive systems.  Case preserving systems areH    demonstrably better than non-preserving systems.  So case preserving,H    case insensitive systems such as ODS-5, Mac OS, or Windows are better    than UNIX or ODS-2.  D    I do fault ODS-5 for it's need to have an escape character, but IE    think that was considered to be the lesser of two evils, the othertB    being breakage of upward compatability.  And I believe COE will:    force the breakage and removal of the escape character.  D    I do not fault ODS-5 for not allowing wildcard characters as partI    of the filename.  I think my post on the *.C file recalls just how badrH    that is for human interface.  Unfortunately I think it's already been     said the COE will break this.      e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:41:38 -0500p From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>o: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <RDh%7.140$vb1.22110@news1.iquest.net>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message < news:lgb%7.414359$C8.30469130@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >h* > "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote in message- > news:fu3%7.99$vb1.13438@news1.iquest.net...  > >m9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagee@ > > news:zl3%7.412650$C8.29990374@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > . > > > "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote in message1 > > > news:xKY_7.46$vb1.10144@news1.iquest.net...e > > >e	 > > > ...i > > >e7 > > > > Broken OSes cannot handle upper and lower case.l > > >mN > > > Arguably correct - and VMS has fixed this with ODS-5 (I suspect it couldJ > > > have fixed it in ODS-2 from the beginning, had it chosen to preserve	 > case in K > > > the names it stored, and for all I know it may have done so somewherew > alonge > > > the way before ODS-5). > > >bL > > > However, a file system is *truly* broken if it *distinguishes* between > upper L > > > and lower case in file names (rather than just preserving the case the > nameK > > > was created with and performing case-insensitive look-ups).  Unix hasr > been) > > > broken in this fashion since Day 1.a > > >b+ > > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD.c >o' > No, it is not.  Not in a file system.  >tE Remember:  you can avoid distingushing at user land IF YOU WANT.   ByiN imposing the limitation at the lower levels removes flexibility.   By imposingH case insensitivity, you are imposing your work-style on others.   If theO limitation of case insensitivity is relaxed, then both ways can be implemented.o  N Such limitations don't belong in an OS or filesystem (esp the filesystem.)   IK guess if you are limited to RAD50 or SIXBIT, then limitations are okay, but)& those are limited by todays standards.   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:42:49 -0500. From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>4: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <ZEh%7.141$vb1.22338@news1.iquest.net>  9 "John J Francini" <francini1026@mac.com> wrote in messageiE news:francini1026-ya02408000R1001020302190001@news.ne.mediaone.net...aL > In article <f48%7.128$vb1.17427@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> > wrote: >mE > >Regarding broken OSes, that was other people making the claim thatuE > >I answered.   I tended to mention broken OS/filesystems that don'ttF > >properly handle case sensitivty and try to fold upper case to lowerC > >case (vice versa) during matching operations.   Filenames should @ > >essentially be reasonable forms of text data.   Maybe a countB > >field for a filename would be better than null termination, and > >things like that. > >nC > >If you have case sensitivity at the OS/filesystem level, you can E > >implement case insensitivity easily (if you wish.)  I suggest thatuB > >it isn't worthwhile, because many current programming languages" > >tend to train case sensitivity. >nK > The problem with this is that you're making an assumption that the targetuK > USER of an operating system is also a PROGRAMMER, and is therefore "used" L > to case sensitivity.  Real end-users of consumer systems are NOT "used" to > case sensitivity.l > G Remember:  case insensitivity isn't even standard ENGLISH usage, and isr' even more important in other languages.o  M There is really little precedence for recent case insensitivity, except maybef ee cummings.   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:45:50 -0500o From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <OHh%7.142$vb1.22177@news1.iquest.net>  d "Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in message news:3C3D6051.A826652@mediasec.de...L > > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD. Many computer languages do [...] >e >d4 > Case-sensitive lookups violate the last two items. >pS Case-sensitvity is even important in ENGLISH usage.   There really is little recenteP precedent, except for artistic motives.   Upper/lower case properly done is muchP more readable, and for those who dislike upper/lower case sensitivity can create# that in the libraries and userland.   R Alas, I have lived in both worlds (ALOT), and much prefer the case sensitivity.  I3 have no real bias, except experience on both sides.g  Q Frankly, case insensitivity is for those who are used to that limitation.   I can I see it as mostly a backwards-compatibility mode for those who are used to  'ee cummings' type systems.m   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:35:02 -0500l From: William_Bochnik@acml.com: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC> Message-ID: <OFB2AF3696.A79BC6F4-ON85256B3D.004F92C3@acml.com>  !       JD <dyson@jdyson.com> wrotea5 >"Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in messageh& news:9JAN200220522593@gerg.tamu.edu...9 >> In article <PSY_7.48$vb1.10237@news1.iquest.net>, "JD"i <dyson@jdyson.com> writes... >> }> >> }"Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message. >news:sEXGJbLGZSav@eisner.encompasserve.org...> >> }> In article <vNI_7.809$Kf.14422@ord-read.news.verio.net>, reobert@bonomi.invalid writes: >> }> >e; >> }> > How can it be "consistent", when it's valid in someh instances, and 'illegalc >> }> > syntax' in others? >> }>i   [ snip ]   >> }> M >> }Nope, the second list of filenames in 'rename' isn't a LIST OF FILENAMES, M >> }but is a prototype of a specification of a new set of names.   This isn'tg$ >> }the same as a list of filenames. >> } >> }John >>M >> The first one isn't a list of filenames either. It is a prototype that the 6 >> program uses to find which files are to be renamed. >>P >That is the same as a list of filenames.   Refer to almost every doco regarding >wildcard expansion. > M >It isn't consistant to use the same kind of spec for a 'list of names' beinge; >virtual or literal and also as the transformation grammar.a >r >Johnr    d Nope - if DCL doesnt touch the wildcards (but passes it to the program) then to the PROGRAM it mightb be the same, but to DCL (which is what we're arguing about) it is a prototype not a list of names.  	 Sematics.x          F ______________________________________________________________________;  The information contained in this transmission may containn@ privileged and confidential information and is intended only forA the use of the person(s) name above.  If you are not the intendedr= recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for deliveringo3 this message to the intended recipient, any review,v@ dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication? is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient,tA please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroyh# all copies of the original message.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:51:56 -0500e From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>l: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <vNh%7.143$vb1.22417@news1.iquest.net>  h "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message news:TgDTzQHR5SD5@eisner.encompasserve.org...S > In article <fu3%7.99$vb1.13438@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:  > M > > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD.   Many computer languages do, ands. > > it is a superset to be able to distingush. > 0 >    Many computer langauges are poorly crafted. > J >    The only criteria I will accept is how good the tehcnique is at humanJ >    interface.  Case insensitive systems are demonstrably better at human+ >    interface than case sensitive systems., >dL Case imparts information.   There are issues of backwards compatibility, but= being stuck in the past isn't really what we should be doing.n  L The only criteria that I accept is that human factors need to be provided byJ UI levels, and putting limitations at the WRONG levels is BAD design.   If8 a UI needs to be limited, then it needs to be put there.  S Are you actually for the full readability of RMS files?   Of course not...   ShouldiP Oracle databases be readable by 'cat' or 'pip' in such a way to make full sense? Maybe so, but they aren't.  S The key here is that OS/filesystem shouldn't put limits on the UI, and vice-versa.  U Not all applications should be limited by the filesystem.   If you want to impart the-K backwards compatibility of case insensitivity, then that can be implemented-+ where YOU THINK that it makes a difference.   K Frankly, the issue of case insensitivity is that of backwards compatibility J from systems where there was NO ability to represent case senstivitiy.   I: am not biased by previous history (even when I was there.)  I I cannot believe some of these regressive arguments about legacy features E from the past.   Remember:  even VMS, by default distorts the case of E the command line.   THAT IS LEGACY BEHAVIOR, and has been very slowly * corrected, because of REGRESSIVE thinking.   John   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 21:43:04 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC- Message-ID: <87ofk21fvb.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   - Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:t  ? > In the case of VMS, however, we're talking about an arbitrarydC > prohibition of a character in a filename for reasons unrelated to  > the filesystem.t  < But it is *not* arbitrary! The syntax of file names and file? specifications is part of a LARGER gramar. Namely DCL, and very:F weakly, the programming languages. Being able to parse out a file nameF with certainty is a plus in all sorts of ways if you have to inplement= a command interpreter, be it a shell, of a CLI, or what ever.i  B BTW, who ever made the claim that TOPS-10 could have a file '*.C',B sorry, '*' is not in the RAD50 character set, and all TOPS-10 file* names used RAD50. What did 20s use? ASCII?   -- d< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:25:59 -0500  From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>c: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <qhi%7.146$vb1.22662@news1.iquest.net>  a "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message news:87ofk21fvb.fsf@prep.synonet.com...2/ > Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:n > A > > In the case of VMS, however, we're talking about an arbitrarysE > > prohibition of a character in a filename for reasons unrelated to1 > > the filesystem.m > > > But it is *not* arbitrary! The syntax of file names and file, > specifications is part of a LARGER gramar. >o? But shouldn't be limited by the least common denominator.   ThetA filesystem should be flexible, and the limitations imposed in theuE UI layer (if desired.)   If the limitations want to be imposed at theiC programmatic level, the add it to the libraries, not the OS/kernel.    > D > BTW, who ever made the claim that TOPS-10 could have a file '*.C',D > sorry, '*' is not in the RAD50 character set, and all TOPS-10 file, > names used RAD50. What did 20s use? ASCII? > A The filename '*' could be created.   I seem to remember somethingeA like #120000000?  in pip.   Also, programs could easily make such  filenames, and can be created.   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:35:58 -0500s From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>u: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <Nqi%7.147$vb1.22695@news1.iquest.net>  U "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote in message news:qhi%7.146$vb1.22662@news1.iquest.net...e > c > "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message news:87ofk21fvb.fsf@prep.synonet.com...c1 > > Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:- > > C > > > In the case of VMS, however, we're talking about an arbitrary>G > > > prohibition of a character in a filename for reasons unrelated tom > > > the filesystem.  > > @ > > But it is *not* arbitrary! The syntax of file names and file. > > specifications is part of a LARGER gramar. > >.A > But shouldn't be limited by the least common denominator.   TheuC > filesystem should be flexible, and the limitations imposed in thewG > UI layer (if desired.)   If the limitations want to be imposed at thetE > programmatic level, the add it to the libraries, not the OS/kernel.o >  > > F > > BTW, who ever made the claim that TOPS-10 could have a file '*.C',F > > sorry, '*' is not in the RAD50 character set, and all TOPS-10 file. > > names used RAD50. What did 20s use? ASCII? > > C > The filename '*' could be created.   I seem to remember something$C > like #120000000?  in pip.   Also, programs could easily make sucha  > filenames, and can be created. > @ Werent' TOPS10 files in SIXBIT anyway?   In those cases of RAD50C and SIXBIT, in the olden days, it is reasonable to make upper/lower E indistinguishable.   In fact, it is probably a hybrid of that and thed< abillity to REPRESENT a wider character set that created the+ inconsistant REPRESENTATION and comparison.    John   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 02 13:25:57 GMTh From: jmfbahciv@aol.come: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1kc9g$p75$2@bob.news.rcn.net>d  - In article <87ofk21fvb.fsf@prep.synonet.com>,u0    Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:. >Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes: >d@ >> In the case of VMS, however, we're talking about an arbitraryD >> prohibition of a character in a filename for reasons unrelated to >> the filesystem. > = >But it is *not* arbitrary! The syntax of file names and filet@ >specifications is part of a LARGER gramar. Namely DCL, and veryG >weakly, the programming languages. Being able to parse out a file nameiG >with certainty is a plus in all sorts of ways if you have to inplementa> >a command interpreter, be it a shell, of a CLI, or what ever. >iC >BTW, who ever made the claim that TOPS-10 could have a file '*.C',sC >sorry, '*' is not in the RAD50 character set, and all TOPS-10 file + >names used RAD50. What did 20s use? ASCII?n > : Sorry, you can.  It just wasn't easy to accomplish for the obvious reasons.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 02 13:29:33 GMTt From: jmfbahciv@aol.come: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1kcg8$p75$3@bob.news.rcn.net>t  2 In article <OHh%7.142$vb1.22177@news1.iquest.net>,!    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:- >-A >"Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in message  $ news:3C3D6051.A826652@mediasec.de...H >> > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD. Many computer languages do  [...]z >> >>5 >> Case-sensitive lookups violate the last two items.1 >>G >Case-sensitvity is even important in ENGLISH usage.   There really is p
 little recentiJ >precedent, except for artistic motives.   Upper/lower case properly done  is muchsK >more readable, and for those who dislike upper/lower case sensitivity can I create$ >that in the libraries and userland. >nD >Alas, I have lived in both worlds (ALOT), and much prefer the case  sensitivity.  Ie4 >have no real bias, except experience on both sides. >eK >Frankly, case insensitivity is for those who are used to that limitation.   <snip>  < Nope.  Giving programmers who suffer under a delusion of NIH2 syndrome a finite list of choices is a Good Thing.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.k   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 02 13:32:24 GMTg From: jmfbahciv@aol.comt: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1kclj$p75$4@bob.news.rcn.net>o  2 In article <vNh%7.143$vb1.22417@news1.iquest.net>,!    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:m >o< >"Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message - news:TgDTzQHR5SD5@eisner.encompasserve.org... : >> In article <fu3%7.99$vb1.13438@news1.iquest.net>, "JD"  <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: >> ,K >> > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD.   Many computer languages do, s anda/ >> > it is a superset to be able to distingush.  >> 71 >>    Many computer langauges are poorly crafted.l >> @K >>    The only criteria I will accept is how good the tehcnique is at human1K >>    interface.  Case insensitive systems are demonstrably better at human7, >>    interface than case sensitive systems. <snip>  : >Not all applications should be limited by the filesystem.  9 It had damn well better be limited if it intends to write   or read any data on that system.   <snip>   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:59:48 -0500e From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>y: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <aNi%7.148$vb1.22805@news1.iquest.net>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1kcg8$p75$3@bob.news.rcn.net...4 > In article <OHh%7.142$vb1.22177@news1.iquest.net>,# >    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:  > >oB > >"Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in message& > news:3C3D6051.A826652@mediasec.de...I > >> > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD. Many computer languages do  > [...]p > >> > >>7 > >> Case-sensitive lookups violate the last two items.n > >>H > >Case-sensitvity is even important in ENGLISH usage.   There really is > little recenttK > >precedent, except for artistic motives.   Upper/lower case properly donea	 > is much L > >more readable, and for those who dislike upper/lower case sensitivity can > create& > >that in the libraries and userland. > >iE > >Alas, I have lived in both worlds (ALOT), and much prefer the casey > sensitivity.  Io6 > >have no real bias, except experience on both sides. > > L > >Frankly, case insensitivity is for those who are used to that limitation. > <snip> >I> > Nope.  Giving programmers who suffer under a delusion of NIH4 > syndrome a finite list of choices is a Good Thing. >aE In that case, a pure binary comparison of filenames is probably best.u: This allows for those who always use UC or LC to get their< expected results, this allows for extended character sets to8 work (at the OS/filesystem level), and supports the best flexibility.  L Filenames are indeed artifacts of a tradition.   The tradition convieniently@ removed case (because of SIXBIT/RAD50), and CLIs/OS/Library codeI would implicitly normalize because of the conversion.   The need for suchsB is LONG GONE nowadays.   More advanced OSes can even support multiF byte chars in names (to remove the roman character set provincialism.)  D As a minimum, removing the UC/LC case insensitivity provincialism is
 a good thing.s  F I won't argue for case sensivitivty on Tops10, but those were the days> where memory was VERY EXPENSIVE.   That choice was made approxB 40yrs ago, and technology has moved way beyond.   Even expected UI has changed significantly.   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:02:36 -0500y From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <NPi%7.149$vb1.22657@news1.iquest.net>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1kclj$p75$4@bob.news.rcn.net...4 > In article <vNh%7.143$vb1.22417@news1.iquest.net>,# >    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:s > >i> > >"Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message / > news:TgDTzQHR5SD5@eisner.encompasserve.org...r< > >> In article <fu3%7.99$vb1.13438@news1.iquest.net>, "JD"  > <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: > >> cM > >> > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD.   Many computer languages do, : > and01 > >> > it is a superset to be able to distingush.h > >> a3 > >>    Many computer langauges are poorly crafted.h > >> vM > >>    The only criteria I will accept is how good the tehcnique is at humanoM > >>    interface.  Case insensitive systems are demonstrably better at humane. > >>    interface than case sensitive systems. > <snip> > < > >Not all applications should be limited by the filesystem. > ; > It had damn well better be limited if it intends to writet" > or read any data on that system. > 7 You missed the context, and followups should quote thiseE entire message:   Not all applications should be limited by arbitraryrA filesystem limitations.   The limitations for UI purposes need to < be placed into the UI.   There is alot to argue for extendedE character sets.   There is alot of roman character set provincialism,n< and the notion (mistaken) that UC and LC have the exact same meaning.   John   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 02 13:48:57 GMTm From: jmfbahciv@aol.como: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC* Message-ID: <a1kdkl$17$1@bob.news.rcn.net>  2 In article <aNi%7.148$vb1.22805@news1.iquest.net>,!    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:9 >7K ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1kcg8$p75$3@bob.news.rcn.net..."5 >> In article <OHh%7.142$vb1.22177@news1.iquest.net>,e$ >>    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote: >> >C >> >"Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in messageo' >> news:3C3D6051.A826652@mediasec.de...eJ >> >> > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD. Many computer languages do >> [...] >> >>} >> >>t8 >> >> Case-sensitive lookups violate the last two items. >> >>iI >> >Case-sensitvity is even important in ENGLISH usage.   There really isa >> little recentH >> >precedent, except for artistic motives.   Upper/lower case properly  done
 >> is muchJ >> >more readable, and for those who dislike upper/lower case sensitivity  canp	 >> create ' >> >that in the libraries and userland.T >> >F >> >Alas, I have lived in both worlds (ALOT), and much prefer the case >> sensitivity.  I7 >> >have no real bias, except experience on both sides.o >> >B >> >Frankly, case insensitivity is for those who are used to that  limitation.l	 >> <snip>e >>? >> Nope.  Giving programmers who suffer under a delusion of NIH'5 >> syndrome a finite list of choices is a Good Thing.f >>F >In that case, a pure binary comparison of filenames is probably best.; >This allows for those who always use UC or LC to get theiru= >expected results, this allows for extended character sets toe9 >work (at the OS/filesystem level), and supports the best 
 >flexibility.  >i@ >Filenames are indeed artifacts of a tradition.   The tradition 
 convieniently_A >removed case (because of SIXBIT/RAD50), and CLIs/OS/Library codesJ >would implicitly normalize because of the conversion.   The need for suchC >is LONG GONE nowadays.   More advanced OSes can even support multiiG >byte chars in names (to remove the roman character set provincialism.)  >sE >As a minimum, removing the UC/LC case insensitivity provincialism isb >a good thing. >nG >I won't argue for case sensivitivty on Tops10, but those were the daysd? >where memory was VERY EXPENSIVE.   That choice was made approxmC >40yrs ago, and technology has moved way beyond.   Even expected UI- >has changed significantly.h  < What are you talking about?  None of this has anything to do4 with technical dis/advantages of case sensitivity.     /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail..   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:13:08 -0500T From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>r: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <FZi%7.151$vb1.22941@news1.iquest.net>  I <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1kdkl$17$1@bob.news.rcn.net...u4 > In article <aNi%7.148$vb1.22805@news1.iquest.net>,# >    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:  > >TM > ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1kcg8$p75$3@bob.news.rcn.net...r7 > >> In article <OHh%7.142$vb1.22177@news1.iquest.net>,t& > >>    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote: > >> >E > >> >"Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in messagep) > >> news:3C3D6051.A826652@mediasec.de...'L > >> >> > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD. Many computer languages do
 > >> [...] > >> >>  > >> >>e: > >> >> Case-sensitive lookups violate the last two items. > >> >>eK > >> >Case-sensitvity is even important in ENGLISH usage.   There really iso > >> little recentI > >> >precedent, except for artistic motives.   Upper/lower case properlys > done > >> is muchK > >> >more readable, and for those who dislike upper/lower case sensitivity  > cane > >> createi) > >> >that in the libraries and userland.d > >> >H > >> >Alas, I have lived in both worlds (ALOT), and much prefer the case > >> sensitivity.  I9 > >> >have no real bias, except experience on both sides.n > >> >C > >> >Frankly, case insensitivity is for those who are used to thate
 > limitation.i > >> <snip>i > >>A > >> Nope.  Giving programmers who suffer under a delusion of NIHt7 > >> syndrome a finite list of choices is a Good Thing.e > >>H > >In that case, a pure binary comparison of filenames is probably best.= > >This allows for those who always use UC or LC to get their:? > >expected results, this allows for extended character sets to ; > >work (at the OS/filesystem level), and supports the best, > >flexibility.S > >tA > >Filenames are indeed artifacts of a tradition.   The tradition2 > convieniently0C > >removed case (because of SIXBIT/RAD50), and CLIs/OS/Library codeaL > >would implicitly normalize because of the conversion.   The need for suchE > >is LONG GONE nowadays.   More advanced OSes can even support multisI > >byte chars in names (to remove the roman character set provincialism.)a > >rG > >As a minimum, removing the UC/LC case insensitivity provincialism is  > >a good thing. > >nI > >I won't argue for case sensivitivty on Tops10, but those were the dayslA > >where memory was VERY EXPENSIVE.   That choice was made approxpE > >40yrs ago, and technology has moved way beyond.   Even expected UIy > >has changed significantly.  >e> > What are you talking about?  None of this has anything to do4 > with technical dis/advantages of case sensitivity. >o, Please quote my entire response for context:  E Yes it does...   The mistaken tradition of normalizing the display ofaC filenames to a fixed case (e.g. RAD50/SIXBIT) might have given rise9K to the mistaken notion that filename comparison should be case insensitive.   E Even VMS by default, normalizes the case on the command line?   TherelP is no valid reason for that.   A proper design would allow for the specificationE of case insensitivity when desired, rather than fixing that behavior.0  I Of course, there is no sense in doing it today.   Those who don't want towF UC/LC their filenames don't have to.   Under UNIX, for example, if youD use the default LC, then that is what you get.   There is no need toE do anything other than binary comparison of filenames, for UI reasonsrC (unless the UI wants to modify the behavior), or for the purpose ofr automated filename generation.  M Anyone who believes that capitalization isn't part of standard usage probably 2 believes that ee cummings writing style is normal.   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:13:34 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC8 Message-ID: <l3fr3ustcg5tup504k60sbf3muidsieu4b@4ax.com>  E On 10 Jan 2002 21:43:04 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>t wrote:    C >BTW, who ever made the claim that TOPS-10 could have a file '*.C',lC >sorry, '*' is not in the RAD50 character set, and all TOPS-10 fileS+ >names used RAD50. What did 20s use? ASCII?e  F Nope TOPS-10 used sixbit. Which gave a character set of 64 chars (2^6)E which begin at 8 bit ASCII 32 (decimal). So all ASCII characters fromcC "space" to ascii "_" were available "*" is 42 decimal so is fine. 6-B *6bits =36 so there were six chars available before the extension.( TOPS-20 used 7 bit ASCII for file names. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:39:49 -0500  From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <Hmj%7.152$vb1.23212@news1.iquest.net>  U "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote in message news:FZi%7.151$vb1.22941@news1.iquest.net...U >rK > <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1kdkl$17$1@bob.news.rcn.net...r6 > > In article <aNi%7.148$vb1.22805@news1.iquest.net>,% > >    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:y > > > O > > ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1kcg8$p75$3@bob.news.rcn.net...f9 > > >> In article <OHh%7.142$vb1.22177@news1.iquest.net>, ( > > >>    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote: > > >> >G > > >> >"Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in messageI+ > > >> news:3C3D6051.A826652@mediasec.de...tN > > >> >> > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD. Many computer languages do > > >> [...]	 > > >> >> 	 > > >> >>o< > > >> >> Case-sensitive lookups violate the last two items.	 > > >> >>'M > > >> >Case-sensitvity is even important in ENGLISH usage.   There really is  > > >> little recentK > > >> >precedent, except for artistic motives.   Upper/lower case properly$ > > done > > >> is muchM > > >> >more readable, and for those who dislike upper/lower case sensitivity  > > cant
 > > >> createi+ > > >> >that in the libraries and userland.n > > >> >J > > >> >Alas, I have lived in both worlds (ALOT), and much prefer the case > > >> sensitivity.  I; > > >> >have no real bias, except experience on both sides.h > > >> >E > > >> >Frankly, case insensitivity is for those who are used to thatn > > limitation.-
 > > >> <snip>- > > >>C > > >> Nope.  Giving programmers who suffer under a delusion of NIH:9 > > >> syndrome a finite list of choices is a Good Thing.  > > >>J > > >In that case, a pure binary comparison of filenames is probably best.? > > >This allows for those who always use UC or LC to get theirmA > > >expected results, this allows for extended character sets to = > > >work (at the OS/filesystem level), and supports the best  > > >flexibility.e > > >nC > > >Filenames are indeed artifacts of a tradition.   The traditiony > > convienientlyaE > > >removed case (because of SIXBIT/RAD50), and CLIs/OS/Library codeeN > > >would implicitly normalize because of the conversion.   The need for suchG > > >is LONG GONE nowadays.   More advanced OSes can even support multiaK > > >byte chars in names (to remove the roman character set provincialism.)v > > > I > > >As a minimum, removing the UC/LC case insensitivity provincialism is  > > >a good thing. > > >lK > > >I won't argue for case sensivitivty on Tops10, but those were the dayscC > > >where memory was VERY EXPENSIVE.   That choice was made approxBG > > >40yrs ago, and technology has moved way beyond.   Even expected UI- > > >has changed significantly.: > > @ > > What are you talking about?  None of this has anything to do6 > > with technical dis/advantages of case sensitivity. > >r. > Please quote my entire response for context: >q7 And continue the honest tradition of quoting the entire 
 context...  G > Yes it does...   The mistaken tradition of normalizing the display ofiE > filenames to a fixed case (e.g. RAD50/SIXBIT) might have given riselM > to the mistaken notion that filename comparison should be case insensitive.e >1M I should clarify that the 'tradition' of normalizing the case is NOT THE SAME M THING as the 'tradeoff.'   It should be considered that case insensitivity ispF an in-between implementation of single case filenames and full supportK for upper/lower case.   The 'tradition' of case insensitivity is a mistaken Q design tradeoff that derives from previous lack of case and some 'justifications' E that case sensitivity is undesirable.   Fortunately, the least common H denominator is much higher than it used to be, and case sensitivity is aI minor lesson for those who don't initially understand it, and natural foraA those who understand the fact that a name is ONLY a name composedr7 of distinct representations of characters.   Such names-G can be expressed in English, roman characters, or non-roman characters.:F Filenames can be considered to be proper names, arbitrary sequences orB even computer generated tags.   A filename need not be constrainedH to be a single word, but could even be a full name including punctuation5 (within design tradeoffs of length or character set.)D  F If, for UI purposes, filenames are desired to be limited to simple oneK word UC/LC insensitive names, then it can be implemented as such.  However,lG imposing that limitation at the OS/filesystem level is violating simplep layering concepts.  K Again, if the folding of UC to LC is made as a matter of a design tradeoff,>J then it should be accepted as a 'tradeoff.'   Oh so many times, a tradeoffI is proclaimed a 'feature'.   Frankly, old UNIX filenames and systems that7C didn't support much beyond English characters were only a step morep evolved than SIXBIT or RAD50.t  K Maintaining a tradition IS NOT a justification for maintaining a limitationrN at the engineering or development level.   At the marketing/political/advocacyK level, then any limitation (e.g. case insensitivity of one sort or another):* could be construed to be an advantage :-).   John  G > Even VMS by default, normalizes the case on the command line?   There8R > is no valid reason for that.   A proper design would allow for the specificationG > of case insensitivity when desired, rather than fixing that behavior.t > K > Of course, there is no sense in doing it today.   Those who don't want togH > UC/LC their filenames don't have to.   Under UNIX, for example, if youF > use the default LC, then that is what you get.   There is no need toG > do anything other than binary comparison of filenames, for UI reasonsoE > (unless the UI wants to modify the behavior), or for the purpose of   > automated filename generation. > O > Anyone who believes that capitalization isn't part of standard usage probablym4 > believes that ee cummings writing style is normal. >o > John >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:58:36 +0100aE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <3C3DC83C.B4129E83@mediasec.de>y  G > Anyone who believes that capitalization isn't part of standard usage n= > probably believes that ee cummings writing style is normal.f  H You don't seem to understand we want a case-preserving, case-insensitiveG system - just about the only thing NTFS got right, with ODS-5 followinguH suit. Capitalization is an aid to text comprehension, but it changes the> meaning only in very rare cases. _That_ is the proper analogy.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:03:10 +0100iE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <3C3DC94E.8E9207C1@mediasec.de>d  B > The only criteria that I accept is that human factors need to beD > provided by UI levels, and putting limitations at the WRONG levelsE > is BAD design. If a UI needs to be limited, then it needs to be put  > there.  K The UI we're talking about is at the level of an OPEN call. How far is thatVB removed from the file system? For all practical purposes, it could be zero.  G Remember that normalization is a good thing. Unix in many cases suffers-G precisely from not having it: you are in a maze of many implementationsrH of the same thing, all slightly different. Consistency is very important to human beings.   	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:07:25 GMTm/ From: "Don Chiasson" <don_chiasson@notmail.com>n: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <xLk%7.8871$iM.5796@news1.bloor.is>"  9 "John J Francini" <francini1026@mac.com> wrote in messageHE news:francini1026-ya02408000R1001020302190001@news.ne.mediaone.net...@ <<snip>>F > When I was a first-time C user, I was bit by case sensitivity.  This wasp? > back in 1981, doing C (using a non-DEC Whitesmiths' compiler) A > on a VAX/VMS system.  C's case sensitivity felt ludicrously outaA > of place after years of using case-folding OSes and programmingy > languages. >aA > I felt that it introduced an entire new class of coding errors,a< > simply due to the fact that variable and keyword case were > required to match. >e <<snip>>; > Consequently, I consider languages, command interpreters,eC > filesystems, and OSes that inflict "the tyrrany of case-matching"i< > on their users or developers to be _fundamentally_ broken.< > Period.  I have yet to see _any_ argument over the past 21( > years that has convinced me otherwise. <<snip.>E         I recall a friend remarking (or did I see it on AFC?) about aeE prof who was very much in favour of using case in variable names. OnehF student felt this was ridiculous and wrote programs using one word forG all variables, just changing the case. For example if he used his name,oH say Dave, this would allow 2^4 = 16 variables. How's that for increasing the chance of error?             Don: e-mail: it's not not, it's hot.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:51:02 -0500%  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <1020110134809.7689A-100000@Ives.egh.com>.   On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, JD wrote:   > L > <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1kclj$p75$4@bob.news.rcn.net...6 > > In article <vNh%7.143$vb1.22417@news1.iquest.net>,% > >    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:e > > > @ > > >"Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message 1 > > news:TgDTzQHR5SD5@eisner.encompasserve.org...l> > > >> In article <fu3%7.99$vb1.13438@news1.iquest.net>, "JD"  > > <dyson@jdyson.com> writes: > > >> rO > > >> > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD.   Many computer languages do, e > > anda3 > > >> > it is a superset to be able to distingush.d > > >> e5 > > >>    Many computer langauges are poorly crafted.e > > >> >O > > >>    The only criteria I will accept is how good the tehcnique is at human O > > >>    interface.  Case insensitive systems are demonstrably better at humanp0 > > >>    interface than case sensitive systems.
 > > <snip> > > > > > >Not all applications should be limited by the filesystem. > > = > > It had damn well better be limited if it intends to write>$ > > or read any data on that system. > > 9 > You missed the context, and followups should quote thislG > entire message:   Not all applications should be limited by arbitrarytC > filesystem limitations.   The limitations for UI purposes need toe> > be placed into the UI.   There is alot to argue for extendedG > character sets.   There is alot of roman character set provincialism, > > and the notion (mistaken) that UC and LC have the exact same
 > meaning. >  > John  G So you are arguing that the filesystem should allow files that the usere$ interface won't allow you to access?  E Or do you assume that users only ever see files that they themeselvesv@ have selected the names of, so that by restricting the namespace@ for their own use, they will hae a consistent view of the world?   --   John Santose Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:59:01 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC@ Message-ID: <Vvl%7.27526$Oc.2351148@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  ( "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote in message, news:aNi%7.148$vb1.22805@news1.iquest.net... >aL > <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1kcg8$p75$3@bob.news.rcn.net...6 > > In article <OHh%7.142$vb1.22177@news1.iquest.net>,% > >    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:    ...-  J > > >Case-sensitvity is even important in ENGLISH usage.   There really is > > little recent$H > > >precedent, except for artistic motives.   Upper/lower case properly done > > is muchnJ > > >more readable, and for those who dislike upper/lower case sensitivity can7
 > > create( > > >that in the libraries and userland.  H You really should talk less and listen more, so I'll speak a bit louder:  L SUPPORTING MIXED CASE IN FILE NAMES FOR READABILITY IS A GOOD THING, BUT *INH NO WAY* REQUIRES ALSO MAKING THEM CASE-SENSITIVE (WHICH IS A BAD THING).   > > >OG > > >Alas, I have lived in both worlds (ALOT), and much prefer the casea > > sensitivity.  Iv8 > > >have no real bias, except experience on both sides. > > >eB > > >Frankly, case insensitivity is for those who are used to that limitation.d
 > > <snip> > >r@ > > Nope.  Giving programmers who suffer under a delusion of NIH6 > > syndrome a finite list of choices is a Good Thing. > >cG > In that case, a pure binary comparison of filenames is probably best.s< > This allows for those who always use UC or LC to get their> > expected results, this allows for extended character sets to: > work (at the OS/filesystem level), and supports the best > flexibility. >e@ > Filenames are indeed artifacts of a tradition.   The tradition
 convieniently B > removed case (because of SIXBIT/RAD50), and CLIs/OS/Library codeK > would implicitly normalize because of the conversion.   The need for suchsD > is LONG GONE nowadays.   More advanced OSes can even support multiH > byte chars in names (to remove the roman character set provincialism.) >iF > As a minimum, removing the UC/LC case insensitivity provincialism is > a good thing.r  K Part of your problem is that you fail to understand that it's *Unix* that'saK provincial in its case-sensitivity, rather than the rest of the world whichTJ treats file names as case-insensitive.  But I guess that's pretty much the *definition* of 'provincial'.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:52:09 GMTt' From: "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii@mail.com>r: Subject: How many Fibre Channel - Multiple Hosts/4 Fabrics( Message-ID: <3C3DD4C5.4D81B376@mail.com>  . Any guestimates as to about how many of these:  E Configuring Fibre Channel as an OpenVMS Cluster Storage Interconnect a  Multiple Hosts With Four FabricsZ http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/fibre/doc/6318pro_003.html#mult_hosts_four_fabrics_f   are in existence?t   -- e C.W.Holeman II cwhii@mail.com http://also.as/cwhii   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 07:59:23 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) > Subject: Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V3 Message-ID: <D1L10cEhsCaK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <3C3B1033.3AFF8B70@Mvb.Saic.Com>, Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes: 6 > CREATE NODE 0 SESSION CONTROL APPLICATION FLT$SERVER > ? > SET NODE 0 SESSION CONTROL APPLICATION FLT$SERVER ADDRESSES =u > {NAME=FLT$SERVER} -i > ,CLIENT  = - > ,INCOMING ALIAS = TRUE - > ,INCOMING PROXY = FALSE -i > ,OUTGOING ALIAS = FALSE -o > ,OUTGOING PROXY = TRUE - > ,NODE SYNONYM = TRUE - > ,USER NAME = "FLT$SERVER" -e+ > ,IMAGE NAME = "SYS$SYSTEM:FLT$SERVER.COM"h  B    I'm still getting invalid user messages on opcom and failure toH    connect to the server.  This is with the same UAF file as my Phase IV9    node is using, so I think the FLT$SERVER acount is OK.r    o   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 08:01:53 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s> Subject: Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V3 Message-ID: <cMYnuAKJzDTM@eisner.encompasserve.org>3  _ In article <3C3C5454.1DC7FE0F@Mvb.Saic.Com>, Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes:n > Bob Koehler wrote:  G > SYS$SYSTEM:NCP.EXE, as shipped with phase V, is a functioning utility0I > that allows one to actually use (as opposed to translate) a limited set D > of NCP commands in a phase V environment.  Had you entered the NCPD > commands used by the flight install procedure to create the flight@ > object into this utility, the object would have been created.   H    The NCP commands that execute during vmsinstal to declare the object %    are not recognized by Phase V NCP.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:15:49 +0000h% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> + Subject: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monster 8 Message-ID: <mr3r3ukcj0pcb3r63r1fqgu4etvn0c2et0@4ax.com>  F I strongly suspect the exact details given below are misleading... butE employees at Compaq Ayr have confirmed to me that there is some basis7E in the story below. *Something* has just been built at Ayr that's hadsD people gaping in astonishment! Given that the factory has apparentlyF built and tested EV6 1024 or greater CPU config (Beowolf?) systems forD publicly announced customers it does seem likely that whatever it isD they have really just built must be substantial indeed. Whether it'sB really VMS it runs who knows but in the absence of any facts let'sF just go along with that. Highly unlikely the NSA (if indeed that's who> it is for) will pop up and say it runs FreeBSD or something :)  F I really doubt that you would have 512 processors per VMS instance forE efficiency reasons even if some version of the OS would allow it. But C who knows. Anyone know if there is an architectural limit in VMS ons> processors as opposed to a supported maximum? How about GalaxyF instances. I can recall hearing mention of unsupported cluster configs@ running with over 100 nodes so 128 Galaxy instances might not be) impossible if the hardware supported it. h  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/10010206.htmd  6 A LASSIE FROM Compaq in Ayr gave me a bell on my cell.D Ayr Annie - as I'll call her - tells me that the factory up there inB bonnie Scotland has just built and tested the largest ever cluster using the Alpha microprocessor.a  C The machine is being built for NoSuchAgency, and she reckons it's ar real coppa whoppa.  E She slips me word that it could be a 1.2GHz EV7 VMS system maybe with-B 512 CPUs per VMS Galaxy instance and say 64 instances per cluster.  E Hey, she said the Big Q has even been flashing photos of these babies D round to its select customers who it trusts - obviously we ain't one of them!  D Well - 32 processors per GS system was the limit with EV6 but things are looking up now...   D And in other news, Annie told me that there are some "restructuring"9 plans set to happen in Ayr - maybe as early as next week.   @ Wouldn't it be better if Compaq talked to the INQ to prevent the@ relentless drip, drip, drip from all these lovely ladies wearing moleskin hats?        -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 08:15:03 -0800+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>e/ Subject: Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monstern( Message-ID: <a1kem70eqh@drn.newsguy.com>  E In article <mr3r3ukcj0pcb3r63r1fqgu4etvn0c2et0@4ax.com>, Alan says...nG >I really doubt that you would have 512 processors per VMS instance foreB >efficiency reasons even if some version of the OS would allow it.  F Some of No Such Agency's applications are believed (based on what I'veG seen in trade rags) to be "embarrasingly paralellizable", that is therea/ is very little inter-CPU communications needed.i  I Six or seven years ago there was a company called IIRC "Avalon" that sold A Alpha hardware for such systems.  I believe that there was even aoL Alpha-CPU-farm-on-a-Unibus-card (!) in their offerings at the time.  I thinkE the "Avalon" company was entirely separate from the "Avalon" DOE/LANLl5 cluster, but the similarities are sometimes striking.    Tim.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:43:13 +0100 8 From: "SCOTT Stephen (BMB)" <Stephen.SCOTT@PROXIMUS.NET> Subject: looping processP Message-ID: <A1611D15EB74D3119F9C0008C7E62D5015F2C26B@cplz33.mobile.belgacom.be>  J This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand< this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C199ED.835CF210 . Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"   Hi  L We have had on occasion a looping process on OpenVMS V7.2-1H1 system, whilstD running some nice new modules developed in-house mostly cobol and c.  K My  question is, what's the best way to locate the part of the code causing I the problem, from monitoring the running process rather than having to gof back to debugging.  G I have in the past used anal/sys or show proc/contin to get the programaL counter which seems to be repeated, and I guess you could trace this back to1 the image map from when the object was linked ...   G But I'm open to suggestions - has anyone else traced this kind of thinge before ????    thanks   Stephena     **** DISCLAIMER ****   "This e-mail and any attachment thereto may contain information which is confidential and/or protected by intellectual property rights and are intended for the sole use of the recipient(s) named above.  Any use of the information contained herein (including, but not limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution in any form) by other persons than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. s If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender either by telephone or by e-mail and delete the material from any computer".   Thank you for your cooperation.r   For further information about Proximus mobile phone services please see our website at http://www.proximus.be or refer to any Proximus agent.t    ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C199ED.835CF210a- Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"o+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">  <HTML> <HEAD>L <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-= 1">rL <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2654.19"> <TITLE>looping process</TITLE> </HEAD>  <BODY>   <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hi</FONT>  </P>  L <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We have had on occasion a looping process on OpenVMS V7.2=L -1H1 system, whilst running some nice new modules developed in-house mostly=  cobol and c.</FONT></P>  L <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>My&nbsp; question is, what's the best way to locate the p=L art of the code causing the problem, from monitoring the running process ra=4 ther than having to go back to debugging.</FONT></P>  L <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I have in the past used anal/sys or show proc/contin to g=L et the program counter which seems to be repeated, and I guess you could tr=L ace this back to the image map from when the object was linked ...</FONT></= P>  L <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>But I'm open to suggestions - has anyone else traced this=!  kind of thing before ????</FONT>n </P>   <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>thanks</FONT>' </P>    <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Stephen</FONT> </P>   <CODE><FONT SIZE=3D3><BR>e <BR> **** DISCLAIMER ****<BR> <BR>L "This e-mail and any attachment thereto may contain information which is co=L nfidential and/or protected by intellectual property rights and are intende=8 d for the sole use of the recipient(s) named above. <BR>L Any use of the information contained herein (including, but not limited to,=L  total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution in any form) =E by other persons than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. <BR>aL If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender either =I by telephone or by e-mail and delete the material from any computer".<BR>  <BR># Thank you for your cooperation.<BR>t <BR>L For further information about Proximus mobile phone services please see our=F  website at http://www.proximus.be or refer to any Proximus agent.<BR> </FONT></CODE> </BODY>t </HTML>o) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C199ED.835CF210--    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:54:23 -0700.+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>n Subject: Re: looping process' Message-ID: <3C3DB92F.2040706@mmaz.com>h  & --------------0107090600090504090002049 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed- Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    SCOTT Stephen (BMB) wrote:   > Hi >oH > We have had on occasion a looping process on OpenVMS V7.2-1H1 system, G > whilst running some nice new modules developed in-house mostly cobol h > and c. > F > My  question is, what's the best way to locate the part of the code G > causing the problem, from monitoring the running process rather than t! > having to go back to debugging.t >tB > I have in the past used anal/sys or show proc/contin to get the D > program counter which seems to be repeated, and I guess you could F > trace this back to the image map from when the object was linked ... >nC Yeap, with the PC and going back to the original link map for that  A image, you can identify the module and also examine the assembly oI instructions if it is a tight-enough loop to at least determine where in r" the sources the code is looping...  D > But I'm open to suggestions - has anyone else traced this kind of  > thing before ????e >e Yeap..._   Barrya   > thanks > 	 > Stephenh >  >  >s > **** DISCLAIMER **** >pH > "This e-mail and any attachment thereto may contain information which G > is confidential and/or protected by intellectual property rights and r@ > are intended for the sole use of the recipient(s) named above.B > Any use of the information contained herein (including, but not > > limited to, total or partial reproduction, communication or A > distribution in any form) by other persons than the designated n > recipient(s) is prohibited. F > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender D > either by telephone or by e-mail and delete the material from any  > computer". >>! > Thank you for your cooperation.o >hF > For further information about Proximus mobile phone services please K > see our website at http://www.proximus.be or refer to any Proximus agent.m     -- w  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028       & --------------010709060009050409000204) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii@ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    <html> <head> </head>. <body> SCOTT Stephen (BMB) wrote:<br>f <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:A1611D15EB74D3119F9C0008C7E62D5015F2C26B@cplz33.mobile.belgacom.be">J   <meta name="Generator" content="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2654.19">    <title>looping process</title>!   <p><font size="2">Hi</font></p> H   <p><font size="2">We have had on occasion a looping process on OpenVMSH V7.2-1H1 system, whilst running some nice new modules developed in-house mostly cobol and c.</font></p>P   <p><font size="2">My&nbsp; question is, what's the best way to locate the partK of the code causing the problem, from monitoring the running process ratherl/ than having to go back to debugging.</font></p>aH   <p><font size="2">I have in the past used anal/sys or show proc/continL to get the program counter which seems to be repeated, and I guess you couldO trace this back to the image map from when the object was linked ...</font></p>e   </blockquote>UI Yeap, with the PC and going back to the original link map for that image, I you can identify the module and also examine the assembly instructions if H it is a tight-enough loop to at least determine where in the sources the code is looping...<br>h   <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:A1611D15EB74D3119F9C0008C7E62D5015F2C26B@cplz33.mobile.belgacom.be">J     <p><font size="2">But I'm open to suggestions - has anyone else traced) this kind of thing before ????</font></p>,     </blockquote>n Yeap...<br>o     <br>	 Barry<br> j     <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:A1611D15EB74D3119F9C0008C7E62D5015F2C26B@cplz33.mobile.belgacom.be">)       <p><font size="2">thanks</font></p> *       <p><font size="2">Stephen</font></p>       <code><font size="3"><br> 
       <br>  **** DISCLAIMER ****<br>O
       <br>I  "This e-mail and any attachment thereto may contain information which issN confidential and/or protected by intellectual property rights and are intended6 for the sole use of the recipient(s) named above. <br>H  Any use of the information contained herein (including, but not limitedM to, total or partial reproduction, communication or distribution in any form)TE by other persons than the designated recipient(s) is prohibited. <br> K  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender either I by telephone or by e-mail and delete the material from any computer".<br> 
       <br>$  Thank you for your cooperation.<br>
       <br>H  For further information about Proximus mobile phone services please see our website at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.proximus.be">http://www.proximus.be</a> or refer to any Proximus agent.<br>!       </font></code></blockquote>o
       <br>8       <pre class="moz-signature" cols="$mailwrapcol">--   D Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President &amp; CIO    E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Treahy@mmaz.com">Treahy@mmaz.com</a> * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028</pre>f
       <br>
       </body> 
       </html>   ( --------------010709060009050409000204--   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:21:30 GMTh= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)h Subject: Re: looping process0 Message-ID: <00A07D59.CC04083A@SendSpamHere.ORG>   In article <A1611D15EB74D3119F9C0008C7E62D5015F2C26B@cplz33.mobile.belgacom.be>, "SCOTT Stephen (BMB)" <Stephen.SCOTT@PROXIMUS.NET> writes:aK >This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understandb= >this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.n >d( >------_=_NextPart_001_01C199ED.835CF210/ >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"n >a >Hir >tM >We have had on occasion a looping process on OpenVMS V7.2-1H1 system, whilstvE >running some nice new modules developed in-house mostly cobol and c.  >uL >My  question is, what's the best way to locate the part of the code causingJ >the problem, from monitoring the running process rather than having to go >back to debugging.e > H >I have in the past used anal/sys or show proc/contin to get the programM >counter which seems to be repeated, and I guess you could trace this back toi2 >the image map from when the object was linked ... >eH >But I'm open to suggestions - has anyone else traced this kind of thing >before ???? >o >thanks  >s >Stephen  F Any networking involved?  Specifically TCP/IP and a third-party stack? --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM0            oJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesn   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:40:08 GMTj' From: nickerson@pundit.ds.boeing.com ()iC Subject: Re: New DS20E With Networking Problem - How To Focus Where ( Message-ID: <GpqJuw.1I7@news.boeing.com>  G Solution!!! (which may get lost in the current flow of newsgroup tears)   ; I described a networking problem on a DS20E and requested aN@ troubleshooting strategy; VMS 7.3 + patches with errors on PEA0;- errorlog showing "x400B  Unknown Port Error"    A I installed the new comprehensive patch UPDATE-V0100; when I had NC examined all available patches in late December this patch was not RB available; back then I picked all patches that looked applicable; A the probable fix is in LAN-V0200; it mentions different problems  = on a DE602 (card in question) in an ES40 amongst other fixes;n  3 In article <3C372235.C3D9DDF6@clarityconnect.com>,  3 "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> writes:nG |>I believe this is a new error packet that PEDRIVER creates when it isjJ |>seeing a lot of packet loss on the network.  We need to get DECevent andF |>Compaq Analyzed trained to recognize these packets.  Definitely haveI |>your network checked out and also consider implementing NISCS_PORT_SERVh |>= 3 in the cluster.T |>-- EF |>Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY2 |>	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan0 |>	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so. |>	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -  E I also took this advice NISCS_PORT_SERV=3; the sysgen information is iI a bit sparse on the implications of implementing the port data checking; eB heck it doesn't even mention which bit is read and which write (orC whatever the purpose); what is this doing for me now & if things go0 bad again what would I see;n   --bn (Bart Nickerson)t (206) 662-0183 nickerson@pundit.ds.boeing.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:58:07 -0000s- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer)n> Subject: Re: OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 97 Message-ID: <919280EC3warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>t  C LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie) wrote in <dAY_7.5537a $Oh1.46691@insync>:a  2 >http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8409777.html   A quote from cnet:  I "Solaris on Intel is relatively a small part of Sun's overall business," yL Kusnetzky said. "It won't have a major impact on Sun's client base. There's ' not an awful lot of them using Intel." y  L By delaying Solaris 9 for Intel, Kusnetzky said, Sun saves money on testing  and production costs.  --  F Another example of classical bean-counter thinking; no concept of how H Solaris on Intel in universities has helped fuel the Solaris-proficient ; crowd in business now, thus influencing buying decisions.  w  I You can delay/cancel Solaris on IA-32 now for immediate cash gain... but pI where will you be 5 years from now when there's no fresh crop of Solaris-fH ites graduating into business?  Decisions like this get people promoted H because it looks good on paper in the short term.  And of course, those F people are no longer around (promotions) when the ramifications (pink  slips) are inevitably realized.    ws   -- h   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)  The Associated Press  L ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do I  **   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:52:51 +0100h, From: Theo Jakobus <Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de>* Subject: Re: PWS500au, parallel port, DCPS) Message-ID: <3C3D7283.5060102@iaf.fhg.de>e   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  Z > In article <3C3C75E7.9000500@iaf.fhg.de>, Theo Jakobus <Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de> writes: > " >>PWS500au, OpenVMS 7.3, DCPS+ 2.0 >>P >>I connected a printer to the parallel port which is named LRA0: under OpenVMS R >>and defined a queue in SYS$STARTUP:DCPS$STARTUP.COM. Printing left the entry in M >>starting state. I realized that the LRA0: device is unidirectional. Next I  F >>defined the logical DCPS$queue-name_NO_SYNC = "TRUE" but no success. >> > J > Please indicate which make and model of Postscript printer you attached,M > and do so before the people who know what they are talking about arrive :-)p >   L   The printer is a HP LaserJet 4000. The problem is the unidirectional port M LRA0: because DCPS asks the printer "How are you" and doesn't get an answer. 0N Without an answer DCPS doesn't proceed. In my understanding tells the logical G DCPS$queue-name_NO_SYNC = "TRUE" to DCPS there is no answer so proceed.u  O Question 1: Is the "unidirectional" of the parallel port fixed through hardware'  I Question 2: Is my understanding of the logical DCPS$queue-name_NO_SYNC ok      Regards, -- r  ; ***********************************************************s; *                                                         *r; *  Theo Jakobus                                           *a; *  Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Angewandte Festkoerperphysik  *i; *  Tullastr. 72                                           *o; *  D-79108 Freiburg                                       *i; *  Germany                                                *,; *  Phone:   +49-(0)761-5159-325                           *e; *  FAX :    +49-(0)761-5159-200                           *D; *  e-mail:  Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de                       *g; *  http://www.iaf.fhg.de                                  *e; *                                                         *s; ***********************************************************5   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:56:40 GMTa- From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>-* Subject: Re: PWS500au, parallel port, DCPS* Message-ID: <3C3D861D.1020300@qsl.network>   Theo Jakobus wrote:a    hH >  The printer is a HP LaserJet 4000. The problem is the unidirectional I > port LRA0: because DCPS asks the printer "How are you" and doesn't get  I > an answer. Without an answer DCPS doesn't proceed. In my understanding oI > tells the logical DCPS$queue-name_NO_SYNC = "TRUE" to DCPS there is no   > answer so proceed. > I > Question 1: Is the "unidirectional" of the parallel port fixed through r
 > hardware    J The OpenVMS driver only supports the parallel port in unidirectional mode.   It will not work with DCPS.h  ? For DCPS you will need either a serial or a network connection.d   -Johnl wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:29:51 -0000c8 From: John Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk>* Subject: RE: PWS500au, parallel port, DCPSN Message-ID: <35666012DF4CD411BE940090279FA240010BF1A6@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>  G Unless something's changed with DCPS 2.0 you can't use a printer on the J parallel port with DCPS. You can, however, set up a normal print queue useI the standard VMS print symbiont and for PostScript files it's ok. You canmH also have limited text using the text mode of the printer and can selectI portrait, landscape, etc with appropriate setup modules. I'm assuming you10 have one of the "standard" HP laserjet printers.   John   -----Original Message-----3 From: Theo Jakobus [mailto:Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de]. Sent: 09 January 2002 16:55T To: John Macallister& Subject: PWS500au, parallel port, DCPS      PWS500au, OpenVMS 7.3, DCPS+ 2.0  E I connected a printer to the parallel port which is named LRA0: underp OpenVMS L and defined a queue in SYS$STARTUP:DCPS$STARTUP.COM. Printing left the entry in eK starting state. I realized that the LRA0: device is unidirectional. Next I  E defined the logical DCPS$queue-name_NO_SYNC" = "TRUE" but no success.<     Regards, -- O  ; *********************************************************** ; *                                                         *t; *  Theo Jakobus                                           *i; *  Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Angewandte Festkoerperphysik  *n; *  Tullastr. 72                                           *h; *  D-79108 Freiburg                                       *c; *  Germany                                                *<; *  Phone:   +49-(0)761-5159-325                           * ; *  FAX :    +49-(0)761-5159-200                           * ; *  e-mail:  Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de                       *Z; *  http://www.iaf.fhg.de                                  *>; *                                                         *m; ***********************************************************a   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:28:59 GMTh2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)+ Subject: Re: Reel to Reel recorder questionc2 Message-ID: <fjj%7.520$5Y4.14574@news.cpqcorp.net>  O In article <a1in3t$fq6$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "me" <wicklinedd@erols.com> writes:e8 :I got a VS400-90 but together to decode a DDS Vax tape.  5   DDS is better known (though incorrectly) as DAT.   h  E   There are a variety of different DDS (DAT) drives around, and media"F   written by one drive may or may not be readable in another.  (If youF   are not very careful to follow the media lifetime, the data may not D   be readable even in the drive that wrote it.  DDS media is usuallyD   rated for around 2000 head passes, and a typical MOUNT/INIT/BACKUPG   archiving sequence can perform quite a few tape passes over the tape 0   headers.  But I digress.).  L :Now another guy need to try to read some old Reel-to-Reel tapes from a Vax.J :How would I go about this I don't know anything about the format for 1/2  :Tape.    I   VAX (hardware) could be running any of a number of available operating eK   systems that support VAX.  Assuming this is OpenVMS VAX, then nine-track eF   magtape has three common densities (800 NRZI, 1600 PE, and 6250 GCR,I   with the higher BPI recordings being "newer" and NZRI being ancient andwK   relatively rare) and a plethora of data formats as possible, with BACKUP e!   being the most prefered format.a  I :One quick search of COMPAQ shows a TSZ07 SCSI which should work but for w :very old tapes...  N   TSZ07 is SCSI-2, and should work with most SCSI-2 configurations on OpenVMS L   VAX and other operating systems, and the drive provides both the 1600 BPI E   PE and the 6250 BPI GCR densities.  (TSV05 provides 1600 BPI only.)u  L   If the tapes are old enough, the media may well have degraded sufficientlyJ   that the tape cannot be read (cleanly, or at all).  There various folks M   aound that have neglected to perform the recommended tape retensioning and dN   have not explicitly considered the media lifetime over the years of storage,5   and the bits do eventually fall off the tape media.a  L   But the best approach: find somebody with a real reel-to-reel drive.  EvenM   better, find somebody that specializes in data recovery from ancient media.   J   Since I probably won't be able to talk you out of trying to recover thisI   data yourself, I would urge you NOT to repeatedly try to read the tape mH   (and this includes repeatedly mounting and dismounting the tape, sinceK   that can "maytag" the tape headers) if you get tape (parity, etc) errors iM   -- save at least some of the remaining oxide for the data recovery service.t  N   I was recently passed a notice indicating that the last remaining (reputed) K   manufacturer of the nine-track media will only be manufactured new media eG   for another week or so: http://www.emaglink.com/Articles/17Dec01.htm.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:37:27 GMTC# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>lC Subject: Re: Samsung ordered to pay $73.5 million for mismanagementi> Message-ID: <HGh%7.162928$pa1.48532323@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C3CCA23.2FB47333@videotron.ca... > John Smith wrote:u > > I > > Both Palmer and Capellas should be forced to give back the money they  spenttI > > on slick suits, and Palmer should be forced to pay back all the moneyt spend @ > > on his big hair...Capellas get a 'bye' on this count though. >nG > If Palmer merely executed a plan set forth by his bosses, then shouldi Palmer > be held responsible ?pJ > Similarly, if Capellas is merely executing orders from Ben Rosen, should  > Capellas be held responsible ?  @ Ever hear of the Nuremburg trials?. The precedent started there.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:42:02 -0500h From: gce <ge@gce.com> Subject: SCSI to IDE bridges' Message-ID: <3C3DC45A.45B4B8D2@gce.com>   T I use an Alcita IDEplex successfully ... works for me in VMS 7.2-1 and 7.3 on alpha.S Either use the ZRdriver hack I put on sigtapes to access (not tested for formatting.Q the things, but seems to be working and is tested reading non-512 devices and foreN reading disks connected this way) or I use a hacked up dkdriver in a differentQ name. The hacks were needed because Alcita had almost no mode pages, and does not4 do disconnect right.  T Someone needing to use this, get in touch (everhart@gce.com). I did send my dkdriverT mods to VMS engineering for their info, but do not believe that such a driver shouldT be used instead of dkdriver. Rather it should be used where dkdriver won't work as aT differently named one. (I call it fqdriver for example.) Almost the same inside, but
 not quite.  M The zrdriver hack has a program that uses io$_diagnose to access the disk andnP make it look normal. Next time I get an un-init'ed IDE drive on the thing I willQ try it with that hack to ensure init and so on work. At least that is supportablei3 (since it doesn't really do or need all that much).e  L IDEplex is nice since it lets you hang an IDE disk on every SCSI LUN, vastlyL expanding your bus. Buy one board and amortize cost over 8 disks. The one-upG converters don't do this, but might do better at dealing with mode pageoK set/sense requests. Be prepared to tell dkdriver to NOT allow disconnect ontQ unknown disks though. That was the final magic I needed. It can be set with a bito1 in the dkdriver tables; see my posting on this...c   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:44:52 -0500-/ From: "Michael A. Foley" <mikiefoley@yahoo.com>VD Subject: Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products/ Message-ID: <u3ra75a89cv824@corp.supernews.com>a  @     I think Apple has every intention of pushing Mac OS X Server?     for its customers server needs. Is VMS "better"? Of course.28     Do Apple customers give a shit? No. OS X Server will     meet their needs.r  L                                                                         mike    : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C3CCC9C.866FD6A2@videotron.ca...  I > 1- It is exactly because Apple has a weakness in the server market that@ VMSML > could easily jump in there and give Apple a boost while easily acquiring a newuL > market for VMS. To Microsoft and others, the MAC marketplace is small. But to> > VMS, that marketplace is HUGE compared to what VMS has left. >cJ > 2-MAC has a big place in schools. Just the right place where you can put VMS H > servers and get them to be aware of VMS while they are young. You'd beI > surprised how much influence the young kid has on parents when he tellso themJ > what he can do on the school's computers and how backwards their widnows PC ata2 > home is. (my nephew is at that stage right now). >vD > And in the publishing industry, you'd be surprised how many do use servers.G > And you'd be surprised how many need heavy duty alpha-power computingi needspK > for rendering and for rasterizing postscript. And those people would LOVEa toI > have a server that needs little maintenance and has online help a human  can ? > actually read because they are not geeks like unix folks are.? >-J > Furthermore, an alliance between VMS and APPLE would allow Apple to sell VMS0F > on your behalf, something Compaq isn't doing. And Apple would have a	 vested in K > terest in selling/marketing VMS as its server OS because that would allowbA > Apple to enter some enterprise markets with a strong server OS.: >0J > If VMS were spun off and sold as a separate entity, its natural alliance wouldrL > be with Apple where VMS would be "king" and the MACs would be the desktopsK > around the kind. If VMS is purchased by IBM, VMS would just be a sideline J > product. (yeah, I know, IBM has much more of an enterprise mentality and" > infrastructure than Apple does).   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:18:51 GMTl, From: liam@nessie.xinqu.net (Liam Greenwood)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dl2 Message-ID: <slrna3qfp9.mbs.liam@nessie.xinqu.net>  H On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:39:08 +1300, Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:C >You ignored the part about opening in another window *behind* the a
 >current one.5  0 	Only because I have never wanted to do that :-) >lG >Go on, admit it ... you're in denial and secretly lusting after a new a >iMac.  I know.s  4 	Not in denial at all, but you spelt iBook wrong :-)   Cheers, Liam   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:55:22 GMTD& From: losthalo@Bast.debian.org (bruce)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The d	I Message-ID: <e3h%7.347960$W8.13093103@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>c  K In article <bruce-E3B94F.18390810012002@news.paradise.net.nz>, Bruce Hoult 9 wrote:C >In article <slrna3pg91.lta.liam@nessie.xinqu.net>, liam@xinqu.net a >wrote:C  H >> >All the Mac browsers I've used do "open in new window" if you click D >> >while holding the "command" key.  Much faster than using a menu.  w >> But that's *so* clunky.  e? >> In X I merely click on the link with the middle mouse buttonh& >> to "open in a new window".  *grins*  J Wow, I just tried this for the first time, it's a lot more convenient than! the right-click menu.  Thanks. =)e  C >You ignored the part about opening in another window *behind* the n
 >current one.j  G >Go on, admit it ... you're in denial and secretly lusting after a new 9 >iMac.  I know.e  D No, I just shade it while the page is loading, under WindowMaker. :)J But then, I also make extensive use of a text-only browser under X, too...   Bruce Nagel7   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:15:58 +0100t3 From: Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com>oY Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dl- Message-ID: <3C3D3FAE.6ECB6BCA@hda.hydro.com>z   Bruce Hoult wrote: > C > In article <slrna3pg91.lta.liam@nessie.xinqu.net>, liam@xinqu.netl@ > > In X I merely click on the link with the middle mouse button' > > to "open in a new window".  *grins*o > C > You ignored the part about opening in another window *behind* the  > current one.  G Afaik, this has been a standard feature in Opera on all platforms for ab
 while now. > G > Go on, admit it ... you're in denial and secretly lusting after a new? > iMac.  I know.  - Let me study my innermost desires for a whilen ...r
 sorry Bruce! e  " No, I'm not lusting after an iMac.   Terjer   --    - <Terje.Mathisen@hda.hydro.com>@ "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 04:56:51 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m0 Subject: TCPIP: logging of all incoming requests, Message-ID: <3C3D655B.B6158999@videotron.ca>  K Is there a way to have a single log to see all inbound connection requests,aI including both the ones that are to known ports/sockets, and to those for , which there is no socket/service available ?  N Ideally, I'd like to be notified if there are consistent attempts to get stuffL out of my system unsiccesfully, and that includes someone scanning for portsL that provide services. Having all those come to a single file (or better yetJ mailbox so a detached process can then take actions when too many messages arrive in a period of time).    K Also, someone tried to telnet to my system today and ANA/AUDIT won't reveal. the usernames he tried.tL (the error code is no such user, but the user name displayed is "<user>" ). J Is there a way to get ana/audit to spew its guts out and tell me ? For FTPL attempts, it is possible to see that information fronm ana/audit (as well as the FTP server log file).   4 But Telnet doesn't seem to generate any server logs.  : I want to know what user names the hackers will be trying.   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:26:44 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>x4 Subject: Re: TCPIP: logging of all incoming requests; Message-ID: <01KCWKG6ZHIS8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>-  B This is something I have been wanting for a long time.  I've made D similar requests in the past here, but as far as I can recall there   never was a satisfactory answer.  B In my case, I want to track down and possibly take action against G unneeded incoming requests to avoid paying for them for my home system. H (At the moment, if only the legitimate requests are taken into account, H paying by the minute is cheaper than a flat rate---that might change in D the future, but even then it would be nice to be able to track down  illegitimate requests.)D  K ===========================================================================a  A Is there a way to have a single log to see all inbound connection F requests, including both the ones that are to known ports/sockets, and: to those for which there is no socket/service available ?   H Ideally, I'd like to be notified if there are consistent attempts to getH stuff out of my system unsiccesfully, and that includes someone scanningG for ports that provide services. Having all those come to a single fileiG (or better yet mailbox so a detached process can then take actions whenc/ too many messages arrive in a period of time). n    D Also, someone tried to telnet to my system today and ANA/AUDIT won'tG reveal the usernames he tried. (the error code is no such user, but thetE user name displayed is "<user>" ). Is there a way to get ana/audit toiG spew its guts out and tell me ? For FTP attempts, it is possible to seerG that information fronm ana/audit (as well as the FTP server log file). o  5 But Telnet doesn't seem to generate any server logs. i  ; I want to know what user names the hackers will be trying. s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:07:50 -07000+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>.4 Subject: Re: TCPIP: logging of all incoming requests' Message-ID: <3C3DBC56.9080901@mmaz.com>1   JF Mezei wrote:9  L >Is there a way to have a single log to see all inbound connection requests,J >including both the ones that are to known ports/sockets, and to those for- >which there is no socket/service available ?d >SO >Ideally, I'd like to be notified if there are consistent attempts to get stufftM >out of my system unsiccesfully, and that includes someone scanning for portstM >that provide services. Having all those come to a single file (or better yetaK >mailbox so a detached process can then take actions when too many messagesa >arrive in a period of time).  >tI Most routers will allow you to setup basic (and some allow for stateful)  F packet inspection and logging of both accepted and denied packets...    C Handling this at the router is probably the safest, unless you can eD afford a firewall but this doesn't help if you leave exposed to all E originating IP's TCP/21, TCP/23, etc...  If you are using TCPware as  E your stack, you can refer to this web page which may have some flags s( that can improve your logging abilities:  M http://www.support.process.com/documentation/tcpware-docs/management/Ch18.htm   I Another common 'unix' practice is to create shells that then turn around  G and actually run the desired internet service.  Often this is done for  G additional logging and authentication before the actual service itself 1 is started.    Barry    --    @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 08:04:32 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: Using "-" in a Filename3 Message-ID: <Jc8qPR2yw2jb@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <Mf0%7.90301$Z2.1290725@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> writes:*  ; > I should have mentioned that this is all on ODS-2 drives.1  J    I never saw any use of ^ on ODS-2, so I assumed you were using ODS-5.  8    Now I know why all your commands worked on my system.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:02:39 -0500m- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>4$ Subject: Re: Using "-" in a Filename3 Message-ID: <F2i%7.90701$Z2.1297193@nnrp1.uunet.ca>a  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KCVNCK6VIM8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...aD > > I don't see anything in your example incosistent with documented > > behaviour. > H > Just because it is documented doesn't mean that it is consistent.  :-|  I I have been told that it is documented. In the VMS User's Manual there is 
 this line;  I "Do not use a hyphen as the first character in the file name because some @ older versions of OpenVMS do not allow it in all forms of a file specification."   = So I guess VAX 7.3 is considered an "older" version of VMS ;)e  I The limited testing I did tells me that the hyphen can be used as long aseG the filename is prefixed by a device name, directory name or a logical. G Prefixing it with a nodename files, but a nodename and a logical works.    $ dir -*+ %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening -* as inputd+ -RMS-F-SYN, file specification syntax errorw $ dir sys$login:-*! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files foundp
 $ dir []-*! %DIRECT-W-NOFILES, no files founde $o   --J A study has shown that sheep can remember faces for up to 2 years, I guess- that means I'm dumber than the average sheep.d   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:11:36 +0100 (MET)n9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a$ Subject: Re: Using "-" in a Filename; Message-ID: <01KCWUDHSFWO8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>t  F > > > I don't see anything in your example incosistent with documented > > > behaviour. > >.J > > Just because it is documented doesn't mean that it is consistent.  :-| > K > I have been told that it is documented. In the VMS User's Manual there isv > this line;  E I'm not disputing that it is documented.  I'm just saying that, if a uH behaviour is inconsistent in some abstract sense, documenting this fact H doesn't change the fact that it is inconsistent.  It is consistent WITH F THE DOCUMENTATION, but not in some higher, aesthetic sense.  Not many G folks consider documentation to be aesthetic (well, maybe we owners of a* multiple copies of the Grey Wall do :-) ).  B Reminds me of the joke: "How many MSCEs does one need to change a G lightbulb?  None---darkness is redefined as the new industry standard."m   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:34:12 -0500y- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>nK Subject: Re: VAX 4000/100 with Correctable Memory Errors resulting in crashr3 Message-ID: <ewi%7.90710$Z2.1297211@nnrp1.uunet.ca>e   >... > "Barry Treahy, Jr." wrote: >...I > > What is of concern is that it is not a single simm location, but each F > > time it is a different simm producing the same error with the same > > results...  J Two days ago we had an AlphaServer 1000 go down because of a memory error.K That bank of memory was taken out and replaced. The "bad" memory was placed-I in another AlphaServer and it reported that the memory was bad so we werehK confident that we fixed the problem. Four hours later the machine went down G reporting that a different bank now had bad memory. We replaced the CPUh@ daughter card, leaving the memory as it was and now all is fine.  I If you're seeing a memory error move around different SIMMs then it might  really be someplace else.o   --J A study has shown that sheep can remember faces for up to 2 years, I guess- that means I'm dumber than the average sheep.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:32:12 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>bK Subject: Re: VAX 4000/100 with Correctable Memory Errors resulting in crash ' Message-ID: <3C3DB3FC.8080200@mmaz.com>B   Tim Llewellyn wrote:   >>Any thoughts or suggestions? >> >fM >Reseat the simms? Aircon failure recently? PSU or flaky mains power problem?-2 >Neighbours installed a particle accelerator :-) ? >  Hi Tim,c  H It was probably the above ground nuclear testing that is causing all of G the stray electrons :-)  No air-conditioning problems, all of the gear aG is on UPS's, and yes, cleaning and reseating the simms has been at the sF top of my list but this is a remote system and my travel plans do not > take me there until Spring unless it goes from bad to worse.    I What I found odd was that of the eight simms, five logged the errors (my e> earlier post only stated three but I found two more faults)...   Thanks for your time Tim...   
 Best regards,i   Barry    -- e  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:09:34 -0500 2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> Subject: VMS resources2 Message-ID: <H%i%7.516$5Y4.14611@news.cpqcorp.net>   Folks,  J If you are looking for VMS people or want to post your resume you may want to check out http://openvms.monster.com/l  
 Warm Regards,t   sueo   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:00:17 -0500'0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> Subject: Re: VMS resources4 Message-ID: <Gvl%7.9832$Q06.62354@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>  J Yes, but then it only has jobs for those who live in the united states. Or those who are willing to move.  J Is it possible that Canada be included in there? I would be most greteful.7 There is a monster.ca so a link is probably possible...s  J I'm sure some would like to see UK, Australia, France, Sweden. Anyone else on this ng?g   Regards,   --   Syltrem-I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)A> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  J "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> a crit dans le message news:' H%i%7.516$5Y4.14611@news.cpqcorp.net...  > Folks, >pL > If you are looking for VMS people or want to post your resume you may want > to check out > http://openvms.monster.com/  >  > Warm Regards,  >  > suee >n >s >    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 10:17:06 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha3 Message-ID: <UGah$I89yESI@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  o In article <c_5%7.412864$C8.30149715@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:y > @ > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message9 > news:cf15391e.0201082242.120748a6@posting.google.com...H8 >> "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message@ > news:<XAw_7.391783$C8.28561848@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...I >> > The MS answer to host-based volume shadowing is host-mirrored drivesu > thatL >> > are taken over by (failed over to - a matter of seconds if a journaling > fileM >> > system like NTFS is used) a second host if the first fails.  If you want(J >> > disaster tolerance, you can have it (at least up to 10 km or whatever > normalC >> > FC allows these days) by separating the disks from each other.n >> {...}H >> > The up-side of this approach is that you can have either host *and* > either; >> > disk fail and still operate, unlike the case with VMS.e >>H >> Seems to me a VMS cluster has exactly this same capability, given theI >> same FC storage configuration (with an inter-site FC link), unless I'meI >> missing something.  With an inter-site FC link, VMS MSCP-serving isn'toH >> needed for access to the remote disks, so that removes the dependency$ >> on a VMS node at the remote site. > D > I may well not understand all the options of VMS host-based volumeN > shadowing, then - I thought the individual volumes were private to each hostL > and not accessible if that host failed (which would mean you're describingN > truly-shared devices, such as cooperating HSxs, above rather than host-basedM > volume shadowing, which was the specific area in question).  But if there's K > a way for one host of a host-based volume-shadowing pair to take over the-D > volume that had been being managed by another (failed) host (or ifH > host-based volume-shadowing allows both hosts to cooperate constantly,M > sharing access to both volumes in the shared pair), then I stand corrected.. >   = 	The last guess is correct.  And another reason shared memoryo/ 	makes the best interconnect.  Message passing!r  > 	As Keith often points out, here is good shadowing overview by& 	one of (the?) principals Scott Davis:  F http://www.research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJ301/DTJ301SC.TXT  L SHDRIVER is responsible for handling all I/O operations that are directed to the virtual unit.   O SHDRIVER issues physical I/O operations to the disk class driver to satisfy themF shadow set virtual unit I/O requests. SHDRIVER is also responsible forB performing all distributed locking and for driving error recovery.   ---3  > 	There is of course info in there on locking protocols, error  	recovery, etc.1   				Rob0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:16:24 +0000.% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?s8 Message-ID: <vptq3ugbj4g3q2krd577p0d7q4l71hnl1j@4ax.com>  @ On Wed, 09 Jan 2002 21:47:50 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:e  h >In article <1v1%7.470$5Y4.14095@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> writes:N >>The brochure is the latest VMS brochure, it is designed for the sales folks,3 >>partner and Compaq to distribute to any audience.n >>D >>You received a copy because you are in the VMS customer data base. >>N >>The photographs come from the corporate graphics library.  I do not know anyM >>of the people in the pictures, but I usually don't in any brochure from anym
 >>company. >> >>Warm Regards,b >> >>suer >  >.L >"When was this brochure mailed?", bellowed the fellow that hasn't seen one.  B Cover letter with my copy is dated December 10, 2001 and signed byF Mark Gorham. Envelope is postmarked "Royal Viking Post, Copenhagen DK" Stamped Received 22-DEC-2001.D -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:36:20 GMT3= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)r+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?u0 Message-ID: <00A07D31.F619F384@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <vptq3ugbj4g3q2krd577p0d7q4l71hnl1j@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:A >On Wed, 09 Jan 2002 21:47:50 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brianl  >Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote: >'i >>In article <1v1%7.470$5Y4.14095@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> writes: O >>>The brochure is the latest VMS brochure, it is designed for the sales folks,-4 >>>partner and Compaq to distribute to any audience. >>>nE >>>You received a copy because you are in the VMS customer data base.- >>> O >>>The photographs come from the corporate graphics library.  I do not know anyoN >>>of the people in the pictures, but I usually don't in any brochure from any >>>company.o >>>c >>>Warm Regards, >>>  >>>sue >> >>M >>"When was this brochure mailed?", bellowed the fellow that hasn't seen one.  >wC >Cover letter with my copy is dated December 10, 2001 and signed byaG >Mark Gorham. Envelope is postmarked "Royal Viking Post, Copenhagen DK"t >Stamped Received 22-DEC-2001. >--u >Alanf  L Is this chiefly a European thing?  I've notice from postings here that thereM seems to be more emphasis placed on doing ads in Europe and elsewhere outside  of the US.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             mJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbest   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 07:55:13 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?r3 Message-ID: <pJ$fXG5k+a+e@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  w In article <01KCVMOPLIL48ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:, > K > I always thought it would be a good idea to redefine "legacy" by teaming -F > up with, say, Mercedes-Benz and refering to a Mercedes as a "legacy  > car".0  H    Subaru make a whole series of excellent cars named Legacy.  Reliable,H    tough, 4 whell drive cars that might match well with VMS' reputation.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:08:23 +0000n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>i+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?e8 Message-ID: <ep7r3uca1cbj7bjjkfslpj8mbd23gs909e@4ax.com>  @ On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:36:20 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:      >fM >Is this chiefly a European thing?  I've notice from postings here that there N >seems to be more emphasis placed on doing ads in Europe and elsewhere outside
 >of the US.  =  C Not sure but I think  Compaq just mail from whatever country offers @ them cheapest rates. As the envelope is further marked "Business@ Economy" most of the US copies are probably trickling across the  Atlantic as ballast for the QE2.  E It is certainly true that Compaq seem to do more Alpha related ads in . Europe than the US though for whatever reason. -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:46:11 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)n+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?r0 Message-ID: <00A07D44.19E21632@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <ep7r3uca1cbj7bjjkfslpj8mbd23gs909e@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:A >On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:36:20 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brianh  >Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote: >i >g >>N >>Is this chiefly a European thing?  I've notice from postings here that thereO >>seems to be more emphasis placed on doing ads in Europe and elsewhere outsideo >>of the US.   >rD >Not sure but I think  Compaq just mail from whatever country offersA >them cheapest rates. As the envelope is further marked "Business7A >Economy" most of the US copies are probably trickling across theR! >Atlantic as ballast for the QE2.e >sF >It is certainly true that Compaq seem to do more Alpha related ads in/ >Europe than the US though for whatever reason.n >--n >Alanr  K Compaq is too busy being bent over and buggered by the big Redmond trouser-e@ schnitzel to stand up and promote their own offerings I suppose.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMs            uJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesh   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:16:44 -0500o- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>o+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure? 3 Message-ID: <Rfi%7.90703$Z2.1297254@nnrp1.uunet.ca>n  J "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A07D31.F619F384@SendSpamHere.ORG... >...H > Is this chiefly a European thing?  I've notice from postings here that thererG > seems to be more emphasis placed on doing ads in Europe and elsewherey outsidee > of the US. >...  K I have not seen it in Canada yet, but mind you I never saw the VMS umbrellat' that Sue told me Compaq mailed to me :(e   --J A study has shown that sheep can remember faces for up to 2 years, I guess- that means I'm dumber than the average sheep.i   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:21:18 +0100 (MET)e9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> + Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure? ; Message-ID: <01KCWUR9KOPW8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>1  D > I have not seen it in Canada yet, but mind you I never saw the VMS3 > umbrella that Sue told me Compaq mailed to me :(    G That was a real conversation piece.  Unfortunately, I left mine in the mH train.  :-(  If Compaq notes an unexpected VMS sale in Frankfurt, chalk ! it up to that lost umbrella.  :-|   # I still have my balls, though.  :-)h   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 10:36:14 -0600+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)N+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?s3 Message-ID: <iA5XULAvy2YY@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  w In article <01KCWUR9KOPW8ZEGIP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:-E >> I have not seen it in Canada yet, but mind you I never saw the VMSH4 >> umbrella that Sue told me Compaq mailed to me :(  > I > That was a real conversation piece.  Unfortunately, I left mine in the oJ > train.  :-(  If Compaq notes an unexpected VMS sale in Frankfurt, chalk # > it up to that lost umbrella.  :-|i > % > I still have my balls, though.  :-)   < I found the mailer in my inbox on Monday here in Bezerkeley,= Kalifornia.  The postmark is smudged, so I don't know when ite< "officially" arrived, as I was out for the last two weeks.  ? Never get the promotional goodies for some reason.  An umbrellas, would be handy for the monsoon season, here.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:25:48 +0000i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>r+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure? 8 Message-ID: <qgfr3usrusv4o287ob4pca14bnji2lkse2@4ax.com>  8 On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:21:18 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbig+ <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:i  E >> I have not seen it in Canada yet, but mind you I never saw the VMS-4 >> umbrella that Sue told me Compaq mailed to me :(  >tH >That was a real conversation piece.  Unfortunately, I left mine in the I >train.  :-(  If Compaq notes an unexpected VMS sale in Frankfurt, chalk 1" >it up to that lost umbrella.  :-| > $ >I still have my balls, though.  :-)  F Not long after I got my VMS ball Computer Associates gave me a CA one.F Visitors loved to play with my balls but within a couple of months the? CA one had given up. The VMS one just goes on and on of course!. -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 12:53:31 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure? 3 Message-ID: <ULxydZaIdMfK@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  p In article <00A07D31.F619F384@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) writes:  N > Is this chiefly a European thing?  I've notice from postings here that thereO > seems to be more emphasis placed on doing ads in Europe and elsewhere outsideh > of the US.    ? I got it in the US, but aren't you actually in New Jersey ? :-)i   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:53:54 GMT?, From: "RM" <72242.3602@nospamcompuserve.com>  Subject: Windows version of DCL?A Message-ID: <Syk%7.5474$342.972033074@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com>P  8 Is there a version of DCL that will run on a Windows PC?   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 18:04:38 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie) $ Subject: Re: Windows version of DCL?' Message-ID: <a1kl3m$a6p$1@joe.rice.edu>s  + RM (72242.3602@nospamcompuserve.com) wrote:e: : Is there a version of DCL that will run on a Windows PC?  $ http://www.accelr8.com/download.html  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 02 11:28:31 GMTp From: jmfbahciv@aol.comeY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The    demise    of e+ Message-ID: <a1k5db$s9n$6@bob.news.rcn.net>e  ' In article <3C3C1037.4ABD9256@ev1.net>,e-    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:i >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  >> l* >> In article <3C3AC94A.48138FB9@ev1.net>,0 >>    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote: >> > o. >> >     [snip....]    [snip...]     [snip...] >> >H >> >Yes, if your nephew is smart, he *should* be assigned more difficultI >> >work. I thought that is why they had special classes for smart people2F >> >called "honors" classes. I guess a lot of school systems can *not* >> >afford that... >> r> >> From what I understood, this was an honors class.  I may be@ >> mistaken about this.  Do you understand why I'm worried about >> that generation?  >> a: >IMHO because the lunatics are running the asylum now!!! I8 >read somewhere:  A dime (farthing) and a 100 kilo block< >of gold are worth the same amount...if they are both laying< >at the bottom of the ocean.  The only way the gold is worth8 >more is if you bring it up and use it. Being smart only9 >helps you (and others) if you *use* your intelligence toe? >accomplish things. You can worry because the current educatorss' >seem *not* to understand this concept.s  = I started noticing that the kiddies we were hiring in the 80se= did not know how to work.  My interpretation of what happenedt9 to my nephew is that this non-learning is now formalized.u< I was handed all of the kiddies who didn't know how to work;: (that was a last resort).  I still don't know how to teach8 them how to work with 100% success.  Is it possible that this is an innate ability?       >>; >> It has been my observation that, the smarter one is, theo; >> harder we get worked.  Of course, that's also due to the 2 >> fact that most people who are smart have a need >> to produce. >> e? >IMHO it is also because companies want to pound every last bit & >of work that they can get out of you.   Sure.  That's common sense.  -   > .. Having a computer lets < >a secretary do the work of a dozen typing-pool workers...so< >the company *requires* the secretary to do the work of that@ >dozen other people. Employers figure that if--with technology--; >you can do *more* in *less* time...then you can do a *lot*h >more in much *more* time.    6 Don't confuse efficiency with bean-counter psychology.  & > ...That's why I see a lot of people 7 >coming home from the office at eight or nine at night.  >e7 I don't understand this.  There must be an awful lot ofi meetings going on.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.(   ------------------------------  ! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 02 11:21:14 GMTr From: jmfbahciv@aol.comaY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise    of com.+ Message-ID: <a1k4vn$s9n$5@bob.news.rcn.net>   - In article <3C3AF59C.E2BE1C6E@hda.hydro.com>,o7    Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote:o >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > >> From what I understood, this was an honors class.  I may be@ >> mistaken about this.  Do you understand why I'm worried about >> that generation?g >> u; >> It has been my observation that, the smarter one is, the$; >> harder we get worked.  Of course, that's also due to the42 >> fact that most people who are smart have a need >> to produce. >aH >Most smart people gets bored easily, the only sure way to avoid this is: >to continually learn new stuff, and (hopefully) apply it. >eF >I'm not vain enough to believe that I couldn't have a satisfying lifeH >without producing anything at all of value (to the rest of society), as( >long as I had a good supply of SF books  B Have you noticed the dearth of real SF lately?  And poorly written< and typeset?  And I heaved whenever I read the ones that are about computers and the net.  " > ... and  problems/brain teasers.  ; Are those problems/brain teasers of your design or somebodyh esle's?  >mI >(How's that for a convoluted sentence? It falls far short of last week's>G >"I couldn't disagree less...", but not too bad for a norwegian guy :-)t >nI >Anyway, one of the key problems seems to be that only a very, very small F >percentage of the population drives progress, so how do you make sureI >that those who are actually capable of it ends up with the education/job   >environment they need to do it?  7 I don't know.  The system may have failed with me.  Theo= Chinese have a great system to sort out the talented to their> specialties.     > I >Or is this no problem at all, simply because the same people will excella  >no matter where you place them?  : I think they will excel.  But how do kids know what is out8 there if they never hear of what is out there?  And kids9 also have no power at all (which is a design feature with  exceptions).   /BAH   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.018 ************************s K > a way for one host of a host-based volume-shadowing pair to take over the-D > volume that had been being managed by another (failed) host (or ifH > host-based volume-shadowing allows both hosts to cooperate constantly,M > sharing access to both volumes in the shared pair), then I stand corrected.. >   = 	The last guess is correct.  And another reason shared memoryo/ 	makes the best interconnect.  Message passing!r  > 	As Keith often points out, here is good shadowing@    @    ª@    ê@    Ī@    Ū@    ƪ@    Ǫ@    Ȫ@    ɪ@    ʪ@    ˪@    ̪@    ͪ@    Ϊ@    Ϫ@    Ъ@    Ѫ@    Ҫ@    Ӫ@    Ԫ@    ժ@    ֪@    ת@    ت@    ٪@    ڪ@    ۪@    ܪ@    ݪ@    ު@    ߪ@    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @     @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    	@    
@    @    @    
@    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @     @    !@    "@    #@    $@    %@    &@    '@    (@    )@    *@    +@    ,@    -@    .@    /@    0@    1@    2@    3@    4@    5@    6@    7@    8@    9@    :@    ;@    <@    =@    >@    ?@    @@    A@    B@    C@    D@    E@    F@    G@    H@    I@    J@    K@    L@    M@    N@    O@    P@    Q@    R@    S@    T@    U@    V@    W@    X@    Y@    Z@    [@    \@    ]@    ^@    _@    `@    a@    b@    c@    d@    e@    f@    g@    h@    i@    j@    k@    l@    m@    n@    o@    p@    q@    r@    s@    t@    u@    v@    w@    x@    y@    z@    {@    |@    }@    ~@    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    «@    ë@    ī@    ū@    ƫ@    ǫ@    ȫ@    ɫ@    ʫ@    ˫@    ̫@    ͫ@    Ϋ@    ϫ@    Ы@    ѫ@    ҫ@    ӫ@    ԫ@    ի@    ֫@    ׫@    ث@    ٫@    ګ@    ۫@    ܫ@    ݫ@    ޫ@    ߫@    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    @    