0 INFO-VAX	Fri, 11 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 19      Contents:7 Re: "Instapoll" at www.compaqworkinggroup.org Not Found = 17 years and still waiting for my first VMS crash (yawn!) ... A Re: 17 years and still waiting for my first VMS crash (yawn!) ... : A quick question about where to look for VMS opportunities% Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive ) Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive  Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Amazing, and a good laugh  Re: Amazing, and a good laugh # ANN: VERB and FREE freeware updates 0 Re: Anyone using a IDE -> SCSI bridge under VMS?H autoconfig - Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products Re: BLISS pros and cons P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went   wrong at DEO Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC > Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for the< Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories und< RE: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories und< Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories undH Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories under SYS$USERS% Re: Clustering two PWS600 via a BA356  COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business" Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business" Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business2 Re: Compaq still tries to spin Alphacide both ways2 Re: Compaq still tries to spin Alphacide both ways" CPQ Board Member Missing in Action& Re: CPQ Board Member Missing in Action& Re: CPQ Board Member Missing in Action! Crescent Communications (CCES.OB)  Re: csws_php and Multinet? Re: DCL whish list; RE: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and L Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat   EstimatesK Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat  Estimates K Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat  Estimates P Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimates Estim  Re: Getting DEC ADA 3.5A to work1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 5 Re: How many Fibre Channel - Multiple Hosts/4 Fabrics 5 Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V 5 Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V 0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 RE: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds Re: HP, imaging and VMS * Huge EV7 Alpha Galaxy Cluster being built!& Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monster& Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monster& Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monster& Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monster& RE: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monster Re: looping process 
 OT: Net humor 5 Re: OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 9 5 Re: OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 9 5 Powercycle MDR to update internal mapping information " Re: Reel to Reel recorder question Re[2]: DCL whish list  Re: RMS index file Re: SCSI to IDE bridges  Re: SCSI to IDE bridges # show system reports wrong NODE NAME ' Re: show system reports wrong NODE NAME ' Re: show system reports wrong NODE NAME ; Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products ; Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products ; Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products P Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demiN Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The dem TP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demisP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demisP Re: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The  demise oP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cP Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of co3 Re: TCP/IP 5.1 and DHCP and Internet/Cable provider 3 Re: TCP/IP 5.1 and DHCP and Internet/Cable provider : re: the poly instruction (was Re: Buffer Overflows - again< U.S. opens criminal probe of Enron - Ken Lay on Compaq Board@ Re: U.S. opens criminal probe of Enron - Ken Lay on Compaq Board Re: Using "-" in a Filename H Re: UWSSs and NOSHRIMG Calling out to other shareables (Not in cookbook)H Re: UWSSs and NOSHRIMG Calling out to other shareables (Not in cookbook)H Re: UWSSs and NOSHRIMG Calling out to other shareables (Not in cookbook) Re: VERB and SYS.STB Re: VMS and VAX clustering Re: VMS resources  Re: VMS resources  Re: VMS resources  Re: VMS resources  Re: VMS resources  Re: VMS resources  VMSBackup to unix  Re: VMSBackup to unix # Re: what is future of VMS and alpha ( Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure?" Re: who else got the VMS brochure? Re: Windows version of DCL?  Re: Windows version of DCL?  Re: Windows version of DCL?  Re: Windows version of DCL?  x25 AND set host x29 AND DTE ADDRESS P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The     demise    ofO Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compa P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaqP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq F Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dem< RE: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: TP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise of compaq P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise of compaq   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:09:31 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) @ Subject: Re: "Instapoll" at www.compaqworkinggroup.org Not Found3 Message-ID: <SPVg35RVmw2O@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <919273FF8warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>, wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) writes:  > Got this email today:  > G > At www.compaqworkinggroup.org the newest instapoll question has been   > added:G > The OpenVMS Group currently funds Monster.com to maintain an OpenVMS  K > Career Center at http://openvms.monster.com/, which is available through  H > the OpenVMS portal (http://www.openvms.compaq.com/). Has this service  > been useful to you? < > - I've never heard of it, but I am interested in using it. > - It's of no use to me. A > - Haven't used it yet, but if I need it, it will be invaluable. 9 > - Tried to find a job through it, but not successfully. 1 > - Found a job through it.  A wonderful service! > > - Tried to fill an opening through it, but not successfully.7 > - Filled an opening through it.  A wonderful service! I > Visit us now to vote on this instapoll, and to let your voice be heard!  >  > -- snip -- > O > When I visit www.compaqworkinggroup.org, I can't find "instapoll" anywhere.   G > The "Issue Voting" section talks about voting on issues, but doesn't   > actually let you do so.   7 I found the subject poll on the right side of the page:   , 	http://www.compaqworkinggroup.org/index.cfm  L I am not upset about not finding the name "instapoll" associated with it :-)  F I _am_ happy to see that they let me vote on that issue without havingE Javascript enabled.  The rest of the site seems to still be broken in  that regard.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 17:47:42 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)F Subject: 17 years and still waiting for my first VMS crash (yawn!) ...= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201101747.69ba9331@posting.google.com>   C It been almost 17 years now I have been on VMS without an OS crash! F Started out on a PDP 11/83 running RSTS/E briefly without a crash alsoC then to Vax VMS 4.7 then to Vax VMS 6.0 then to Vax VMS 6.2 then to C Alpha VMS 7.1 ... I dare anyone in windoze or unix or linux land to C claim the same!  I think this once again proves what OS is the most E reliable ... read this and weep windoze and unix users, oh, I forgot, " you already are weeping ... sorry!   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:06:27 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> J Subject: Re: 17 years and still waiting for my first VMS crash (yawn!) ...5 Message-ID: <3C3E80E3.B08625A9@swissonline.delete.ch>    Bob Ceculski wrote:  > E > It been almost 17 years now I have been on VMS without an OS crash! H > Started out on a PDP 11/83 running RSTS/E briefly without a crash alsoE > then to Vax VMS 4.7 then to Vax VMS 6.0 then to Vax VMS 6.2 then to E > Alpha VMS 7.1 ... I dare anyone in windoze or unix or linux land to E > claim the same!  I think this once again proves what OS is the most G > reliable ... read this and weep windoze and unix users, oh, I forgot, $ > you already are weeping ... sorry!    H Not quite Irish Railways because that was the same machine (or machines) for 17 years...   > I recall a year or two back hearing that Compaq had to teach a0 customer's system managers how to boot an Alpha.  F The sys managers with the knowledge had gradually been replaced over aB period of time but since the Alphas didn't need rebooting, the newG people never had the experience.  I guess that nothing had been changed B so the new peope had to learn about boot flags, the system startup sequence and things like that.     John McLean    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 05:50:10 +0100 (CET) % From: Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> C Subject: A quick question about where to look for VMS opportunities 8 Message-ID: <1cb7424b7cae28b7fe2c9c006b523340@dizum.com>  J I apologize if this is off-topic, but I have a quick question here for the group.  Q Where is there a good place to look for VMS/OpenVMS job opportunities, preferably 0 along the lines of programming versus sys mgmnt?  K I keep checking DECUS, all the newsgroups, agencies, and the "resume farms" S online. Is there another place I could look at? Is there an agency that specializes K in VMS pros? I've kind of been out of touch for a while, but am back on the J market. With over 15 years experience it is very frustrating to be sittingL idle. I'd just like to get another year or two out of VMS before I move onto something else.   3 Any pointers and tips would be greatly appreciated.    Thanks,   # Long in tooth, short on opportunity    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 03:32:44 GMT ) From: martin.hunt@inl.co.nz (Martin Hunt) . Subject: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive8 Message-ID: <3c3e5b7d.371578081@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz>  D I am currently playing around with a Quantum DLT4500 tape drive withD loader. If I dismount a tape, the next tape in the loader is loaded.E But, is there any way of loading a specific tape, such as the tape in ? slot 4? Or, as I suspect, would I have to purchase a product to  support this feature? 1 It would be nice to be able to do something like:  $ MOUNT/FOREIGN MKA500 /SLOT=4       ---  Martin Hunt  Systems Administrator  Independent Newspapers Limited
 Wellington New Zealand    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:28:11 -0600 + From: Shael Richmond <ksrich@bellsouth.net> 2 Subject: Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive, Message-ID: <3C3E69DB.7020104@bellsouth.net>   Martin Hunt wrote:  F > I am currently playing around with a Quantum DLT4500 tape drive withF > loader. If I dismount a tape, the next tape in the loader is loaded.G > But, is there any way of loading a specific tape, such as the tape in A > slot 4? Or, as I suspect, would I have to purchase a product to  > support this feature? 3 > It would be nice to be able to do something like:   > $ MOUNT/FOREIGN MKA500 /SLOT=4 >   @ I'm not sure which model that is, but if it's similar to a TL891< you can change the settings on the unit to be random and not? sequential.  Mine came with MRU(Robot) which allows you to load = any slot you want.  There is also a freeware program MLU too.    Shael    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:15:34 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment > Message-ID: <GDm%7.65211$Sj1.26685062@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  + <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message % news:a1kmf7$c1i$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk... J > In article <xCk%7.65189$Sj1.26642494@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C., Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: > >  > > I > >Sun also does not support any 64bit x86 based alternatives for Solaris 
 > >either. > >  > >Regards,  > > 
 > >Kerry Main  > > F > >No they do not, and IMHO that decision will come back to haunt them > >big-time! > >  > I > Well it probably is still a bit early for Sun to announce that they are # > porting Solaris to AMD Hammer. :) K > As to Itanium they had Solaris ported to it before just about anyone else L > had ported their OS but decided not to continue with it - which looks like a  > very good decision.   @ Based on the current population of ~5K IPF boxes worldwide, yup.  3 McKinley might change a few perceptions. We'll see.   F A move to Hammer would be a good way for Sun to hedge its bets withoutH colluding with Intel. I can see it now: Mister McNealy and Mister PalmerK have a little palaver about supporting Solaris on a non-Sparc architecture. H Wouldn't be the first time McNealy and Palmer had such a discussion. '-}   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:48:51 -0500 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> & Subject: Re: Amazing, and a good laugh2 Message-ID: <Hww+PB39a24Lib46Zf2BE57fcJtN@4ax.com>  9 I scanned through it.  Utterly amazing sometimes how much ! some people can be real a$$holes!    David R. Beatty   F On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:44:58 -0700 (MST), John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> wrote:   >  >Thanks to the Reg for this: > ; >http://petemoss.com/spamflames/ShifmanIsAMoronSpammer.html  >  >John Nebel    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:24:04 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>& Subject: Re: Amazing, and a good laughC Message-ID: <U8r%7.217525$m05.19032509@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   J Truly impressive - makes any silliness that has gone on around here (in myK memory, anyway) look tame, and all our participants look positively eruditeV and urbane.r   - bill  B "David Beatty" <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> wrote in message, news:Hww+PB39a24Lib46Zf2BE57fcJtN@4ax.com... >t; > I scanned through it.  Utterly amazing sometimes how much # > some people can be real a$$holes!  >  > David R. Beattye > H > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:44:58 -0700 (MST), John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> > wrote: >  > >h > >Thanks to the Reg for this: > > = > >http://petemoss.com/spamflames/ShifmanIsAMoronSpammer.htmll > >o
 > >John Nebeli >b >n   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 05:38:22 GMT - From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) , Subject: ANN: VERB and FREE freeware updates0 Message-ID: <3c3e78dd.59108303@news.process.com>  A The following packages have been updated in my freeware archives:l  	    o VERBn  : 	VERB V2.2-1 increases the size of an entry buffer used by: 	VERB to store the target CLI table.  On systems with very: 	large CLI tables, VERB would generate an access violation9 	when trying to populate the table.  Runs on both OpenVMS)6 	VAX and OpenVMS Alpha.  Binaries included.  Thanks to0 	David Dachtera for pointing out the limitation.  	    o FREEe  8 	FREE displays disk usage, showing the used blocks, free8 	blocks, total blocks, device name, and volume label for9 	all mounted disks.  This version includes better supportt5 	for handling large disks, resulting in more accurate-0 	totals.  Thanks to Chris Pierce for the update.  + You can find both using the following URLs:    http://www.process.com/openvms/e  4 ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/verb.zip4 ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/free.zip  9 http://vms.process.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/verb.zipw9 http://vms.process.com/ftp/vms-freeware/fileserv/free.zipt  0 ftp://ftp.tmk.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/verb.zip0 ftp://ftp.tmk.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/free.zip   And on the usual mirror sites.   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/:9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 16:15:22 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>e9 Subject: Re: Anyone using a IDE -> SCSI bridge under VMS?10 Message-ID: <qhn0zlyc85.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  - Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> writes:rD > Several IDE -> SCSI bridges - devices that supposedly allow you to< > use "cheap and big" IDE drives on a SCSI bus - have becomeG > surprisingly affordable (~$100) in the last few months.  For example:nH >   http://www.dirtcheapdrives.com/cgi-bin/GProductViewer.exe?ARS-2000UB > andn, >   http://www.cardaysupply.com/bridges.html  A Any idea whether they support the new >137G IDE drives, e.g., thehG Maxtor 160G?  Beyond the 137G barrier, the LBA takes more than 28 bits,b* so they have to double-pump the registers.  C If the bridges have upgradeable firmware, they might be able to addh+ this support if they don't already have it.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 04:18:17 GMTp- From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>iQ Subject: autoconfig - Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" productsa( Message-ID: <3C3E6C23.30209@qsl.network>   Chuck McCrobie wrote:-   >>>> >>>>G >>>HA HA HA HA HA HA HA - will someone please step up to do "autoconf"?oJ >>>That'll be the day!  "Source compatible" - maybe, but just try to build? >>>most Unix software and one runs into "autoconf".  Good luck!u >>>> >>>  > I look forward to it!t >   G > Well, I stand to be impressed.  Last time I visited getting some Unix I > autoconf program working on VMS, I gave up.  If indeed this can be donee/ > reasonably, my hat is off to VMS engineering!k    I You must have missed my post about autoconfig late last year.  I am sure e that google can pull it up.   H In a nutshell.  There is nothing automatic about autoconfig.  It is a a G shell script that is recursively hand tweaked for each product so that pH it produces what appears to be acceptable results on each platform that  the product is maintained for.  G If you are not using one of the platforms that someone has tweaked the y- autoconfig files for, it may or may not work.o  H Since every time someone makes a change to the autoconfig files, it may E break for the other platforms, it needs to be retested on all of the A  platforms, and possibly tweaked.  C It also means that unless OpenVMS exactly emulates a specific UNIX rA implementation, autoconfig will not work until someone tweaks it.r  F I know that is not how it is reported to work, but look at the change  logs, and there it is.    H As such, it is just as easy to look at the input files and the expected H output from autoconfig, and just use a DCL or equivalent script to scan D config.h_in and the Compaq C headers files to produce the resulting 	 config.h.n  I And even now that I can generate over 99% of the config.h automatically, eD I have been discovering that the actual code in many cases does not  honor the settings.h  H I have also discovered errors in the tests that autoconfig is using, so F that it is returning incorrect results, and errors in it's input file.    / The build of the .MMS file I still do manually.a   -John5 wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:52:46 GMTf- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)   Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons0 Message-ID: <3c3e28c3.38602587@news.process.com>  P On Sat, 05 Jan 2002 13:29:25 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:   g >In article <jvtZ7.317$5Y4.6573@news.cpqcorp.net>, hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) writes:  >>> >>  Do you have specific examples of problems with MAIL/NOOLD? >w1 >Remember, you lifted the lid on Pandora's box...  >e >Yes, I have one or two... >  >$ MAIL-
 >MAIL> DIR; >  {directory listing of mail messages in a normal fashion}T
 >MAIL> 100Q >    #100         6-NOV-2001 00:19:26.02                                     MAIL-' >%MAIL-E-INVITMLEN, invalid item lengthm >a >MAIL> > K There have been several discussions here in the past about how the new MAIL.M is broken.  When I reported one bug, including easy-to-reproduce instructions N and examples showing how it used to work and how it no longer worked, the wordJ that came back from Engineering was that I was mistaken, that the code wasI working as it was intended.  Even though it clearly wasn't.  I gave up ond> trying to report bugs after that and another experience I had.  ! Besides, I use PMDF MAIL now. 8-)    Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/s9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:47:23 GMT - From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went   wrong at DE 0 Message-ID: <3c3e27bb.38338137@news.process.com>  O On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 08:16:15 -0800, Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:e  G >Digital applications written in BLISS (note that DEC never used BLISS)pI >were notorious for their poor quality and lack of robustness.  You couldNJ >tell, just by running the application, that it was written in BLISS, even >before looking at the binary. >  ?????   B >And if a BLISS application had a bug and crashed, there wasn't anJ >icecube's chance in hell of being able to fix it, even as a binary patch.H >The object code generated by the BLISS compiler was completely bizarre,E >unlike code generated by any other compiler.  It was as if the BLISS4I >compiler had no awareness of the PDP-10 architecture, and was generatingeH >code for some other architecture that was translated at the last moment >into PDP-10 code. > K You apparently never used BLISS-32, which produced great object code---muchr: better, in my experience, than any other compiler for VAX.   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/i9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/u   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:42:33 GMTr- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)fX Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <3c3e2624.37931682@news.process.com>  O On Fri, 04 Jan 2002 16:29:26 -0500, John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> wrote:    >Simon Clubley wrote:e >lP >> On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 15:44:50 -0500, in article <3C34C2C2.4070807@compaq.com>, >> John Reagan wrote:R >> eL >>>Let me check around.  There was a "History of BLISS" paper being written K >>>for a journal last year.  I'm not sure if it ever was published or not. aL >>> I'll see if I can get a copy and post it (without violating copyrights). >>>g >>>E >>  9 >> I, for one, would be interested in reading this paper.e >> o >aI >I've checked with the author. He has resubmitted the paper (to some ACM wH >journal but I forget which one).  He was going to check on the status. H >Given the pending publication, we don't want to violate any copyrights ! >on the paper by posting it here.t >rF The original article by Wulf that introduced BLISS to the world can beD found in my freeware archives.  You can also find an introduction to BLISS there.   bliss-article-ps.zip@     Description: PostScript version of article introducing BLISS4     Author: Wulf, et al. Formatted by Hunter Goatley     Size: 119 blocks     Language: PostScript   bliss-intro.zipsE     Description: PostScript session notes for "Introduction to BLISS"P     Version: 24-JUN-19930     Author: Matthew D. Madison <madison@TGV.COM>     Architecture: VAX,AXP.     Size: 36 blocksd     Language: PostScript   You can find them here:    http://www.process.com/openvms/n  @ ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/bliss-article-ps.zip; ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/bliss-intro.zipt   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/t9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:38:43 GMT.- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)tX Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <3c3e24d1.37592805@news.process.com>  4 On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:20:09 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: >lI >Just religion.  Larry will tell you that Ada is the best language.  UNIXwJ >hacks will tell you C.  The kiddies will tell you JAVA.  I'm sure someone >still loves RPG-II. >t0 But we all know that objectively, BLISS is best.  K >The early VMS developers jumped on it as a way to write much of the kernelrJ >code for VMS - as opposed to writing it in Macro-32.  The language itself >never caught on.e  L It never helped that DEC priced the compiler so high---second only to Ada inO the '80s.  If they'd given the compiler away, or at least made it as affordablet7 as C, PLI, and others, it might have had a chance, IMO.l     Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/g9 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:27:05 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)cG Subject: Re: Buffer Overflows - again Was: (Re: Congratulations for thee3 Message-ID: <LlkcN9ma2h+a@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  n In article <clmGYEWEmX9y@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.514360.killspam.00c9 (Wayne Sewell) writes: > P > POLY rings a bell.  Seems like I was farting around with CRC generation at theM > time.  It had to be something rarely used, or it would have been discoveredeO > during field test.  I would think that a microcode problem with MOVL would beV > found pretty quick.  :-)  F    You weren't using CRC for CRC?  We can be fairly sure it wasn't CRCB    since 1.x used that in password hashing.  Field test would have;    caught that.  ("My system crashes every time I log in.")m   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:55:40 -0500e5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>GE Subject: Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories und 2 Message-ID: <LeM9PK4Sc3ZCoibreLTh9mT3vFuj@4ax.com>  + More than likely the SYS$MANAGER definitionr, you specified is correct, but if you look at HELP/MESSAGE INVDEF:  2  INVDEF,  'directory-specification' does not exist  7   Facility:     CLI, Command Language Interpreter (DCL)   E   Explanation:  You set default to a nonexistent directory using the tF                 SET DEFAULT command, and then entered the SHOW DEFAULT  F                 command.  This message can also occur if the directory  F                 exists, but you do not have the privileges required to                   access it.  F   User Action:  Set default to a valid directory and reenter the SHOW                   DEFAULT command.  . It's possible, but doubtful SET is misdefined.  # And Happy New Year to you, as well!e   David   0 On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:05:01 -0500, WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote:   >n# >I think we already know THAT, Davea >( oh happy New Year BTW) -v >v! >SYS$MANAGER = SYS$USERS:[SYSMGR]i >e5 >I suspect that somebody (who needs to be hunted down 4 >and physically punished) has set up a global symbol9 >that's stepping on SET (so they could change directoriese= >from their login dir without having to type in those painfulu- >eight keystrokes that comprise "SET DEF "...v >v0 >SHOW SYM/GLOB S* should clarify things greatly. >w >WWWebbe >m >-----Original Message-----e0 >From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET* >Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:25 PMC >To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETiF >Subject: RE: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories und >r >s5 >How is SYS$MANAGER defined, please?  David R. Beattyc >e2 >On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:40:55 -0500, "Rob Reffner"( ><robreffner@removeearthlink.net> wrote: >d >>All- >>J >> I have encountered a unique situation on a Alpha 2100 running VMS 7.1-2? >>where any directory I try to SET DEFAULT to I can't. Example:. >> >>> SET DEF SYS$MANAGERn2 >>%DCL-I-INVDEF, SYS$USERS:[SYSMGR] does not exist >> >>N >>This type of thing happen no matter where is try to go. Has anyone seen this	 >>before?i >> >>	 >>Thanks,r >> >>
 >>Rob Reffner) >> >> >>   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:35:55 -0500n* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>E Subject: RE: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories und - Message-ID: <0033000047439662000002L022*@MHS>o  , =0ABut he's saying that he can't SET DEFAULT "no matter where is try to go".u  % (All your directory are belong to us)   - That still sounds like ill-thought-out symbolo redefinition to me.    WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETf( Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 2:31 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETE Subject: RE: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories unde    + More than likely the SYS$MANAGER definition , you specified is correct, but if you look at HELP/MESSAGE INVDEF:  2  INVDEF,  'directory-specification' does not exist  7   Facility:     CLI, Command Language Interpreter (DCL)x  D   Explanation:  You set default to a nonexistent directory using theF                 SET DEFAULT command, and then entered the SHOW DEFAULT  F                 command.  This message can also occur if the directory  F                 exists, but you do not have the privileges required to                   access it.  E   User Action:  Set default to a valid directory and reenter the SHOWa                  DEFAULT command.  . It's possible, but doubtful SET is misdefined.  # And Happy New Year to you, as well!n   David0  0 On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:05:01 -0500, WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote:   >w# >I think we already know THAT, Davee >( oh happy New Year BTW) -r >c# >SYS$MANAGER =3D SYS$USERS:[SYSMGR]3 >w5 >I suspect that somebody (who needs to be hunted downg4 >and physically punished) has set up a global symbol9 >that's stepping on SET (so they could change directories = >from their login dir without having to type in those painfuli- >eight keystrokes that comprise "SET DEF "...  > 0 >SHOW SYM/GLOB S* should clarify things greatly. >c >WWWebb  >m >-----Original Message-----Z0 >From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET* >Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:25 PMC >To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETuF >Subject: RE: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories und >  > 5 >How is SYS$MANAGER defined, please?  David R. Beattye >o2 >On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:40:55 -0500, "Rob Reffner"( ><robreffner@removeearthlink.net> wrote: >- >>All- >>H >> I have encountered a unique situation on a Alpha 2100 running VMS 7.= 1-2G? >>where any directory I try to SET DEFAULT to I can't. Example:D >> >>> SET DEF SYS$MANAGERc2 >>%DCL-I-INVDEF, SYS$USERS:[SYSMGR] does not exist >> >>H >>This type of thing happen no matter where is try to go. Has anyone se= en thisf	 >>before?  >> >>	 >>Thanks,t >> >>
 >>Rob Reffners >> >> >>=y   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:01:29 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>VE Subject: Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories undo, Message-ID: <3C3E1D44.EB9D9DCD@videotron.ca>   WILLIAM WEBB wrote:s/ > That still sounds like ill-thought-out symboll > redefinition to me.n  N Ahh, perhaps. a command procedure that is executed when you type SET, drops P1> (def) and uses P2 to drop the device name and write sys$output5 "SYS$USERS:''directory_spec' does not exist" message.b  S As someone else said, show symbol/global S* would go a long way investigating this..   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:41:08 -0500s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>fQ Subject: Re: Cannot SET DEFAULT to anthing other that directories under SYS$USERSi, Message-ID: <3C3E1880.11F540B6@videotron.ca>  L > >  I have encountered a unique situation on a Alpha 2100 running VMS 7.1-2A > > where any directory I try to SET DEFAULT to I can't. Example:t > >w > > > SET DEF SYS$MANAGERr  H Have you tried SHOW DEFAULT  ? This may yield some hint on why you can't change elsewhere.J  N In the show default, try to SHOW LOGICAL every piece, especially what would be handled as the device name.>  M Also, look at your process logicals. It is possible someone played a prank on T you and redefined some of the logicals that are used by logicals such as SYS$MANAGER  8 Normally, SYS$MANAGER translates as SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] And SYS$SYSROOT translates to: 	disk_name:[SYS0.] 	SYS$COMMONn   and sys$common translates to:e 	diskname:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.]r  O If someone defined SYS$SYSROOT to SYS$USERS, that would explain your situation..   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:03:44 +0100 , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>. Subject: Re: Clustering two PWS600 via a BA356& Message-ID: <3C3E1DCF.7AE5AA3F@gmx.ch>   Didier Morandi wrote:a > ' > I have at home two PWS600 running 7.3s  pA > I have plugged a BA356 with two SCSI cables, one to each Alpha.-  9 Cluster DTL up and running and connected to the Internet.l  O For those of you who could be interested (and btw thank you for all the privateeL mail I got from everywhere in the world and for the messages in this thread) here is what was necessary:>   I had 
 2 PWS600au 2 BA 356-KCs some cables 
 some disks   I used only one BA   This is what I did I read the FAQ I read the docO I plugged each SCSI cable to both systems after having created a cluster member $ on each station with cluster_config. I gave alloclass 255 to bothO I added a jumper in the DTL02 system disk to change its name (and SCSI address)MI to DKA100 SCSI 1, I put my disks in slots 2 and 3 (which gives DKA200 andVM DKA300), I rebooted the two stations and roulmapoul, here is the DTL cluster.e   D. (next steps, MOZILLA and WASD)   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 10:55:56 -0800i/ From: chinachowchow@mailcity.com (Rick Nickles)h' Subject: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Businesst= Message-ID: <ac4e3b24.0201091055.596af704@posting.google.com>m  E It really seems that the best thing for VMS is to spin it off as it's D own separate business (company).  That way there isn't the politicalF agenda with Microsoft, and then they are free to market VMS like crazyF and really build up a following as a single company.  Compaq stands toE gain, The users stand to gain, Customers stand to gain.  The only onenD that might lose is Microsoft, and it isn't like they'll be hurt that bad anyway.g   What do you think folks?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:00:12 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>,+ Subject: Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Businesss, Message-ID: <3C3E713A.46B1AAAD@videotron.ca>   Rick Nickles wrote:i > G > It really seems that the best thing for VMS is to spin it off as it's F > own separate business (company).  That way there isn't the politicalH > agenda with Microsoft, and then they are free to market VMS like crazyH > and really build up a following as a single company.  Compaq stands toG > gain, The users stand to gain, Customers stand to gain.  The only onegF > that might lose is Microsoft, and it isn't like they'll be hurt that
 > bad anyway.i  L Agreed 100% . And Compaq could keep the service business for those machines.  K However, with the murder of Alpha, VMS is now in a state of limbo without at viable platform.  N One must now wait for Compaq to either revive Alpha or for IA64 to materialise1 as a succesful chip before VMS could be sold off.T  I UNLESS, VMS is purchased by IBM or SUN or APPLE, at which point it can bei ported to Power or SParc.s   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 05:58:13 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)+ Subject: Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Businessl< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201100558.72bfe71@posting.google.com>  t chinachowchow@mailcity.com (Rick Nickles) wrote in message news:<ac4e3b24.0201091055.596af704@posting.google.com>...G > It really seems that the best thing for VMS is to spin it off as it'sAF > own separate business (company).  That way there isn't the politicalH > agenda with Microsoft, and then they are free to market VMS like crazyH > and really build up a following as a single company.  Compaq stands toG > gain, The users stand to gain, Customers stand to gain.  The only onehF > that might lose is Microsoft, and it isn't like they'll be hurt that
 > bad anyway.  >  > What do you think folks?  H no, the best thing that could happen is that is sold to some non-pc tiedI owner who is not being paid off to not develop vms, not advertise vms ...uF Palmer was paid off by Gates, and now Capellas ... they have restartedI some development becuase windows and itanium have both been flops for the-I high end, and they are trying to buy time for them to become high end ...uF the government and 24x7 businesses will not run on itanium windoze ...I not everyone is stupid ... that is why intel wanted alpha, so itanium cancI gain alpha technolgy, and why Gates had Cutler write stolen Dec Mica codegF as the base for NT ... they failed on windoze, and whether Intel uses F Alpha to its full potential remains to be seen ... VMS can dominate ifK you get it in to the hands who want to put it where it should be, no. 1 and  not sell out to microsoft ...    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 23:01:48 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva); Subject: Re: Compaq still tries to spin Alphacide both waysn% Message-ID: <a1l6gs$3ul@web.nmti.com>b  8 In article <8b8%7.1970$ko4.209104@nasal.pacific.net.au>,# Jon Hart <jon@daemon.com.au> wrote:aL > > Things have tended towards the MIPS end of the spectrum, but they've had > toK > > add interlocks... what happens when the pipeline's longer in the second  > > generation?-  N > Is there an issue with distributing applications in pCode and then compiling > therK > pCode to native code on installation? The code will need to be recompiled- > when the cpu is upgraded.t  F The main issue is that the lower level the code that you're optimisingL is, the fewer kinds of optimizations there are available, because each stage' of translation throws away information.m  G But, yes, this is a useful technique. The TenDRA compiler that came outvL of the UK defense industry used what they called ANDF, Architechture NeutralB Distributiuon Format, as the first stage output from the compiler.  C Which of course brings up one reason Intel would be unlikely to use0G a pcode... you could convert the pcode to Power PC or Sparc at least asgG easily as to VLIW. Which is a fairly strong disincentive for them to do  so.    -- r+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.sE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."yL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 15:47:18 -0800, From: David Masterson <dmaster@synopsys.com>; Subject: Re: Compaq still tries to spin Alphacide both ways ( Message-ID: <uu1tt6a61.fsf@synopsys.com>   >>>>> Peter da Silva writes:  & [...on pcode output from compilers...]  C > The TenDRA compiler that came out of the UK defense industry usedoD > what they called ANDF, Architechture Neutral Distributiuon Format,. > as the first stage output from the compiler.  E > Which of course brings up one reason Intel would be unlikely to usetF > a pcode... you could convert the pcode to Power PC or Sparc at leastB > as easily as to VLIW.  Which is a fairly strong disincentive for > them to do so.  D Besides, if they did do it, then we'd have MS-Windows everywhere and we'd never get rid of it... ;-)u   -- ,: David Masterson                dmaster AT synopsys DOT com- Sr. R&D Engineer               Synopsys, Inc.o, Software Engineering           Sunnyvale, CA   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:08:48 GMTr4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>+ Subject: CPQ Board Member Missing in Actiono> Message-ID: <AWq%7.65299$Sj1.26862730@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  K My, my, my... a month ago the CPQ Investor Relations site listed Ken Lay asuG a CPQ Director. A visit to the same site today makes no mention of Ken.:  K But many other news sources are making PLENTY of mention of Mr. Lay. He was87 the CEO of a little petroleum startup called Enron. ;-},   cheers,n   terry se> Who is willing to fill the seat apparently vacated by MIA Lay.   -- Terry C. Shannon Consultant and Publisher Shannon Knows Compaq% Director at Large, Encompass US, Inc. , Northern Delegate, DFWCUG Steering Committee  email: terryshannon@mediaone.net2 Web (info on SKC):  www.openvms.org, www.tru64.org   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:41:55 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u/ Subject: Re: CPQ Board Member Missing in Actiono, Message-ID: <3C3E5EE8.B122C8CF@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:i > M > My, my, my... a month ago the CPQ Investor Relations site listed Ken Lay ashI > a CPQ Director. A visit to the same site today makes no mention of Ken.t  J What are the procedures to replace a board member ? Can they just nominateM anyone they want and then later have that ratified by shareholders during themN next annual meeting, or does that require shareholders to be notified/involved right away ?  N Can Compaq leave that seat empty until the wedding with Carly is made official5 at which point the Compaq Board becomes moot anyways.y   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:55:40 -0500l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n/ Subject: Re: CPQ Board Member Missing in Actiona, Message-ID: <3C3E702A.98AF5D18@videotron.ca>  N FYI: Ken Lay mentioned quite a few times in the CNN interview with Paul O'Neil (treasury secretary).   0 He admits having had many contacts with Ken Lay.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 20:43:49 -0000* From: "Mag Net News" <MAG@lb.bcentral.com>* Subject: Crescent Communications (CCES.OB)( Message-ID: <1010695429.96057.qmail@ech>  / Capitalizing on the Telecommunications Downturn<     OVERVIEW    L There is no shortage of dead, dying and bankrupt ISPs, ASPs, Telecom,Hostin=L g,Storage, and other web-based companies. They litter the landscapein theca=L rnage after the dot com bust and continuing shakeout. The namesarea virtual=L  "who's-who" of every investor's worst nightmares, thislistcontinues to gro=' w and the bottom has not been felt yet.n  L Using the recent "Excite At Home debacle" as the latest example of whathapp=L enswhen a company acquires too much debt; revenues without profits,bloatedo=L verhead for salaries, over priced assets and BAM! You have arecipe forrunni=/ ng out of capital that would make Emeril proud.h  L However, CCES sees a golden opportunity to benefit and step in when everyon=L eelseis going out of business. CEO of CCES Manfred Sternberg is an attorney=L ,entrepreneurand contrarian. Mr. Sternberg has used his successful lawpract=L ice asa stepping-stone for an active career in venture capitaland real esta= teinvestments.=20s  L One such opportunity Mr. Sternberg is putting a lot of his time and moneybe=L hindthese days is Houston-based Crescent Communications, Inc., (asmall publ=0 iclytraded high-speed connectivity provider).=20  L CCES was born out of three other relationships involving Mr. Sternberg.In19=L 98, Mr. Sternberg became involved with a small ISP which was laterrenamedHT=L E8, Inc. Mr. Sternberg guaranteed bank loans on behalf of thefounderswho pl=L edged their stock to him as collateral. When the companyfiled Chapter11 reo=L rganization in the fall of 2000, Mr. Sternberg tookover the reignsof the co=L mpany in order to save his investment. At thesame time, anotherclient of Mr=K  Sternberg's; Berens Industries, Inc.,(a small publiclytraded software com= L pany) was seeking a solution forits investors as itwas on the brink of shut=) ting down after running outof capital.=20r  L Fittingly, one of Mr. Sternberg's legal clients was seeking investmentoppor=L tunitiesto diversify away from his oil & gas holdings. Mr. Sternbergand his=L  partnersinvested new capital into Berens Industries and tookcontrol of the=L  tinypublic company. Berens Industries then purchasedapproximately $1.5 mil=L lionin equipment and other assets from the bankruptestate of HTE8 for lesst=L han ten cents on the dollar. Mr. Sternberg andhis partners renamed thenew p=L ublic company, Crescent Communications,Inc. (Sternberg having beenraised in=L  New Orleans "The Crescent City").Crescent began trading underits new stock=L  symbol CCES on September 25,2001 less than two months afterthe transaction= s were finalized.   L Since then, Crescent has been gobbling up all the commercial internetconnec=L tivitycustomers it can from the misfortunes of others. In a littleover twom=L onths Crescent became the number two independent internet companyinHouston.=L  Crescent is gaining market share quickly, with a virtuallydebtfree balance=L  sheet, a lean and hungry management team and a stateof theart high speed n= etwork.e  L Larger competitors are actually walking away from their customers andshutti=L ngdown or going out of business with little or no advance notice.Crescentis=L  picking up customers and the assets these companies leavebehind forpennies=L  on the dollar. Crescent has doubled its revenues asit buildsa premium oper= ation in the Southwest.E  L Mr. Sternberg and his partners have big plans for Crescent, which mayinclud=L esome additional mergers and acquisitions down the road as wellas offeringo=L ther products like voice over internet and wireless services.Rest assuredth=L ough, Mr. Sternberg's first priority is to make Crescentprofitableand run i=L t under sound business management principles. Nooverpriced acquisitionshere=* , just bargain hunting in a buyers market.  L "The market for internet connectivity will continue to grow, that...weare a=L ll assured of, states Manfred Sternberg. "If you can imaginethefuture of th=L e internet and access to it playing a larger and largerrolein your life and=L  your business, then Crescent will be there to meettheneeds of the small to=L  medium sized business. We intend to be a survivor,nota victim, in this lat= est consolidation phase".i  L Management is focused on the bottom line and the company continues tomovecl=L oser to profitability. CCES stock is currently trading near itshistoricallo=L w with the number of outstanding shares and float beingvery small.These fac=G tors combined should lay the groundwork for a verystrong moveupward.=20S     PROFILET  L CCES was formed to acquire assets of other broadband and internet companies=L whichare going out of business due to high overhead and poor managementata =L fraction of their value. The Company believes that it will achieveitspurpos=L e by providing affordable co-location facilities to internetserviceprovider= s.=20g  L Crescent Communications is a broadband Network Service Provider (NSP)servin=L gas a nexus for connectivity, application hosting and delivery,and security=A to the small-to-mid-tier business market (10 to 1,000 employees).   L Crescent's services are driven by exclusive relationships with ApplicationS=L erviceProviders (ASPs) and their customers, by Multi-Tenant and Multi-Dwell=L ingUnit(MTU and MDU) deployments, and by individualized solutions for large=
 renterprises.A  L In contrast with traditional Internet Service Providers (ISPs) and theirexp=L ensive"one-customer-at-a-time" acquisition models in a commoditizedmarket,C=L rescent is growing its subscriber base through arrangementsthat expandits a=L bility to reach end-users in a "one-to-many" relationship,whilein an enviro=L nment of reduced competition. In particular, relationshipswithASPs are resu=L lting in growth in connectivity customers while creatingmultiplerevenue str= eams for the Company.-  - Crescent's Home Page http://www.crescentb.com0     Corporate Financial Snapshot=20m Approximate as of 1/9/02=20R   Shares Outstanding: 3.8M Shares in the Float: 2.2M  Market Cap: $ 1.17Ms 52 Wk Hi/Lo: 1.50/.100 Recent Price: .31    Recent News and Press Releases  L Crescent Communications Reports Quarterly Results First quarterly revenuesf= romnew operations.  ? CRESCENT COMMUNICATIONS INC - Quarterly Report (SEC form 10QSB)   D Crescent Communications, Inc.. The Best Kept Internet Secret - CCES!  L Crescent Communications Acquires InfoHighway Assets in Texas; ExpandsRelati= onshipWith Boxer Propertiese     SERVICES   Carrier Services  L With the proliferation of the web and communications, traditional businessm=L odelshave been discarded. Businesses can grow and prosper like neverbefore,=L expanding into geographical regions as markets dictate. The metropolitan-ce=L ntricbusinessmodel of yesterday meant that business needed to be close tola=L rge urbancenters to survive and flourish. That is no longer the case.Busine=L ssescan locate nearly anywhere and still be in contact with theircustomerba=L se, vendors, suppliers and strategic partners. Large telecommunicationsandI=L nternet carriers have large networks that give businesses this new-foundfre= edom.r  L Crescent has formed close partnerships with these mega carriers, in orderto=L provide their customers with this freedom. CCES customers make useofsuper-f=L ast Internet connectivity, Virtual Private Networking, VoiceOverIP communic=L ations, and the world's largest fiber optic cabling networks.Clientshave th=D e freedom to travel, expand and grow nationally and internationally.   Application Hosting   L Crescent Broadband provides hosting services to Application Service Provide=L rswhovalue an infrastructure with the ability to reach their customers.This=L key differentiator sets Crescent apart from traditional hostingproviders--u=L nlikeother providers, Crescent values each customer of theASP, not just the=L ASP itself. Crescent is positioned to deliver the connectivityand otherserv=L ices to assist the ASP in serving its target customer base.As a consequence=G ,the ASP enjoys increased levels of performance, monitoringand service.   L Crescent's pricing for application hosting is built on a per-user basisforp=L roviding state-of-the art servers and multiple backbone connectivityina har=L dened facility with 24-hour security (through partnerships withLevel(3)and =' Colo.com), monitoring, and maintenance.p     E-Commerce Sites  L E-Commerce is not a relatively new idea, but the implications and resultsin=L creaseinfinitely when you apply that idea to the Internet. Onlineretailerss=L aw their business increase over 200-percent in 2000, as consumerscontinueto=?  gain confidence in purchasing goods and services over theirPC.s  L Crescent Broadband offers effective solutions for providing e-commercetoaug=L ment its client's Internet strategies. No fuss - No hassle. CCESisequipped =L with secure servers, and complete e-Commerce software solutionstohandle the=3  complexities involved with online transactions.=201     Virtual Private Network (VPN)w  L VPNs are networks deployed on a public network infrastructure that employth=L esame security, management, and throughput policies applied in a privatenet=L work.VPNs are an alternative WAN infrastructure that replace or augmentexis=L tingprivate networks that utilize leased-line or Frame Relay/ATMnetworks.Be=L nefits of using VPNs include cost savings and extending connectivitytotelec=L ommuters, mobile users and remote offices as well as to new constituencies,=L suchas customers, suppliers and partners. VPNs are fundamental in achieving=L globalreach and ubiquitous access, thereby enabling new business applicatio= nsinthe Internet economy.u  L Virtual private networks (VPNs) connect branch offices and remote usersbyut=L ilizing a shared or public network, such as the Internet, whileprovidingthe=L  same security and availability as a private network. BecauseVPNsuse an exi=L sting shared WAN infrastructure, costs are less expensiveanddeployment is f=L aster than traditional private networks. Telecommuters,mobileusers, and bra=L nch offices all require dependable access to companyintranetsso businesses =D of all sizes are beginning to see the advantagesof deployingVPNs.=20     Network Intergration  L Crescent Broadband installs and tests every aspect of a company's networkst=L rategyto ensure its success. CCES advises on new technologies andproposes c=4 ost-efficientmethods for implementing a new network.  L Crescent provides customers with hands-on expertise in the followingareas,i=! ncluding the newest technologies:g   Cabling Systemsd Hardware Implementation  Network Operating Systemso WAN Connectionsl  @ CCES experts ensure the transition to a new network is seamless.    
 Voice Over IPt  L Crescent Broadband carries the latest IP Telephony technologies to improvet=L heirclient's bottom line. Voice Over IP allows a business to placephone cal=L lsover the Internet, versus traditional carrier routes. Thismeans lessrelia=L nce on carriers and cuts long-distance costs. This technologyisperfectly-su=L ited for businesses that have multiple distant locationsthatneed to be in t=L ouch with each other very frequently during the businessday.Long distance u=L sually means large phone bills. Voice Over IP technologymakesthis setup mor=
 e economical.s  L Voice Over IP is also perfect for companies that rely on conference calls,e=L speciallyvideo conferencing. Often, businesses already have most ofthe netw=L orkingcomponents in place. Usually the addition of one or twonetwork compon=L entsis all that is necessary to start a company with aVoice Over IP network= .      Web Hosting:  L Web sites need web servers, CCES web servers host business-only sitesandens=L ure that storage space and speed are not determining factors forInternetpre= sence.    
 Management   Jeff Olexa President and COO  L Mr. Olexa, age 41, has 17 years experience in Technical and Consultativesel=L lingin the Telecommunications and Internet industries. Mr. Olexawas previou=L slyemployed with CXR Telecom, and National Business Group,a nation-wideinte=L gration company where he served as Regional Managerover the SouthCentral Re=L gion. In this capacity Mr. Olexa was responsiblefor growingthe overall comp=L any to $40 million in sales and the Southwestregion fromstartup to over $6 =L million in revenue. Mr. Olexa had fullprofit and lossresponsibility for the=L  South Central Region. Prior tohis commercial experience,Mr. Olexa was in t=L he armed forces where hemaintained an Air Force telecommunicationfacility. =L This facility utilizedwireless communications, including line-of-sitemicrow=L ave communicationsand other broadband technologies between Greece,Turkey an= d Italy.    ) Manfred Sternberg Chief Executive Officeru  L Mr. Sternberg age 41,is a graduate of Tulane University and LouisianaStateU=L niversity School of Law. Mr. Sternberg is licensed to practicelaw inTexas, =L Louisiana and the District of Columbia and is Board CertifiedinConsumer Law=L  by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization. Some of Mr.Sternberg'sclients =L include The Bank of New York, First City ServicingCorp., Citicorp,Bank of A=L merica, Transamerica Insurance Co., Wells FargoBank, LippoBank,and Baker Hu=L ghes, Inc. Mr. Sternberg's many investmentand general counselactivities inc=L lude ownership interests in a varietyof companies suchas a private local te=L lephone equipment reseller, twopublic software companies,and several financ= e companies.    % James Hausman Chief Financial Officerc  L Mr. Hausman, age 45, has 13 years of experience in the Telecommunicationsin=L dustry.Mr. Hausman served for 12 years as the CFO of Houston CellularTeleph=L oneCompany, the largest wireless provider in Houston, Texas, wherehe helped=L build this $1 Billion entity from startup. Mr. Hausman hasmost recentlywork=L ed with emerging telecommunications companies to sourcefunding fromprivate =L capital and debt markets, while assisting with thedevelopmentand implementa=L tion of their strategic growth plans. Mr. Hausmanis a CPAwith a BS in Accou=L nting from the University of Kentucky. Mr.Hausman alsoserves as a board mem=2 ber of several charitable organizationsin Houston.     Recent SEC Filings  L CCES filings with the SEC can be found at the Securities and ExchangeCommis=L sionsweb site http://www.sec.gov . The latest filing was a form4 on 12/6/01= .      CONTACTS   IR CONTACT PERSON:
 Jeff Olexa Ph: (713) 682-7400 Email: jolexa@crescentb.comn            L This profile contains "forward-looking statements" within the meaningofSect=L ion 27a of the Securities Acts of 1933 and Section 21E of theSecuritiesExch=L ange Act of 1934. Although the Company believes that theexpectationsreflect=L ed in such forward-looking statements are reasonable,it can giveno assuranc=L e that such expectations will prove correct. Forward-lookingstatementsthat =L can be identified by the use of words such as "anticipate","believe","estim=L ate", "expect", "intend", "may", "will", "plan", "forecast"andsimilar words=L  and expressions. Such forward-looking statements involverisksand uncertain=L ties that may cause actual results, performance, achievementsandthe timing =L of certain events to differ significantly from the resultsdiscussedor impli=L ed in the forward-looking statements. Therefore, noforward-lookingstatement=  can be guaranteed.=20  L Important factors to consider in evaluating such forward-looking statements=L includeuncertainty that demand for our services will increase and othercomp=L etitivemarket factors, changes in Crescent' business strategy oran inabilit=L yto execute Crescent's strategy due to unanticipated changesin its business=L ,its industry or the economy in general, unforeseen difficultiesin integrat=L ingacquisitions and other factors set forth more fully inCrescent's AnnualR=L eport on Form 10-K for the fiscal year ended December31, 2000, and otherfil=1 ings with the Securities and Exchange Commission.8  L It is not possible to foresee or identify all factors affecting Crescent'sf=L orward-lookingstatements and investors therefore should not considerany lis=L t of factorsaffecting Crescent's forward-looking statements tobe an exhaust=L ive statementof risks, uncertainties or potentially inaccurateassumptions. =L Crescentdoes not have a policy of updating or revisingforward-looking state=L ments,and thus it should not be assumed that Crescent'ssilence over time me=L ansthat actual events are bearing out as expressedor implied in such forwar= dlooking statements.    L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20t Disclaimer:=20L MAG publishes reports providing informationon selected companies thatMAGbel=L ieves has investment potential. MAG is not a registered investmentadvisoror=L  broker-dealer. This reportis provided as an information serviceonly,and th=L e statements and opinionsin this report should not be construedasan offer o=L r solicitation tobuy or sell any security. MAG accepts noliabilityfor any l=L oss arisingfrom an investor's reliance on or use ofthis report.An investmen=L t inThe Above named company is considered tobe highly speculativeand should=L not be considered unless a person canafford a complete lossof investment.MA=L G has been hired by a third partyconsultant, and is contractedtoreceive a c=L ash advertising fee of $500-$5000for the publication andcirculationof this =L report. Subsequently MAG maybuy or sell shares ofthe stock ofthe above ment=L ioned company in theopen market. This reportcontains forward-lookingstateme=L nts, which involverisks, and uncertaintiesthat may cause actualresults to d=L iffer materiallyfrom those set forthin the forward-lookingstatements. For f=L urther detailsconcerning theserisks and uncertainties,see the SEC filings o=L f the abovementioned companyincluding the company'smost recent annual and q= uarterlyreports.    G _______________________________________________________________________m Powered by List BuilderM To unsubscribe follow the link:eM http://lb.bcentral.com/ex/manage/subscriberprefs?customerid=3D11414&subid=3D=r 27528E56F349D777&msgnum=3D14   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 15:50:25 -0800l( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)# Subject: Re: csws_php and Multinet?o< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201091550.868c841@posting.google.com>   winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote in message news:<00A07C0E.A17D43C7@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>... > comp.os.vmsers:i > . > AlphaServer 800, VMS 7.2-2, Multinet 4.3-AX. > K > I just upgraded my Apache/CSWS/perl/mod_perl/mod_php versions current on sM > the Compaq website.  Trying to load mod_php, Apache crashes; the server lognN > has an error from the image activator that it couldn't load the php4_module. > K > (This confused me because I didn't have any trouble doing this on my homer > machine.)  > K > When I tried running php_setup.com and then executing PHP by hand, I got:i >  > $ php=7 > %DCL-W-ACTIMAGE, error activating image TCPIP$IPC_SHRI' > -CLI-E-IMAGEFNF, image file not foundm5 > $9$DKA0:[SYS1.SYSCOMMON.][SYSLIB]TCPIP$IPC_SHR.EXE;= > $e > L > Apparently  php is linked against a specific TCPIP Services image.  (I hadL > it on my home machine because I'm running TCPIP Services there.)  Is thereN > any easy workaround for using php with Multinet?  (I presume I could get theM > source and figure out where it's calling TCPIP$IPC_SHR routines and replace N > those with equivalent Multinet calls and relink and hope I could still build+ > mod_php, but I've got other stuff to do.)e > 	 > Thanks,p > 	 > -- Alant >   L that is why we run purveyor on tcpware ... the apache group must think everyD one uses ucx, and do not thouroughly test on tcpware or multinet ...   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 09:46:41 -0800. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: DCL whish listo= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0201100946.6124b3c8@posting.google.com>g  p Valentin Likoum <valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.ru> wrote in message news:<1829801283.20020110105652@ncc.volga.ru>...? > On 09.01.2002 Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote:r >  > > I just want this$ > > $ DELETE/ENTRY=ALL/QUE=SYS$PRINT > > Why not ???a > D >   While we are on the topic, why not to show PID of the process in? > SHOW QUEUE and SHOW ENTRY if job is executing. Something liket > 6 >   Entry  Jobname         Username             Status6 >   -----  -------         --------             ------H >     812  BCK             B_USER               Executing (PID:000046D1)H >                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^C >   I'm a bit lazy to search through SHOW SYSTEM output to find out.H > in which process certain entry is executing every time I need to check > how this entry is doing. >   Thank you.  D This command procedure will get you the pid and other info about theD job. It could be modified to use the pid in SET PROC command insteadC of just SHOW PROC. If all you want is the pid, extract the F$GETQUIrC command from the procedure and use that in your own procedure. Sendv( comments, bug reports, etc., to afeldman atski gfigroup.com.N  o/ $!+ BATCH_INFO.COM    ! Author: Alan E. Feldman  $!8 $!  PURPOSE: To get the PID of a batch job and use it in$ $!           a SHOW PROCESS command. $!" $!  Parameters:  P1 - Entry number5 $!               P2 - Qualifiers for SHOW PROC/ID=pidA $!: $!  Example:   $ BAT*CH_INFO :== @disk:[dir]BATCH_INFO.COM" $!             $ BAT 234 /ACC/QUOT $!8 $!  NOTE: There must be a space between the entry number7 $!        and the qualifiers, and no spaces between thet $!        qualifiers.  $! $   STATUS = 1% $   ON CONTROL_Y THEN GOTO _CONTROL_Yi $   ON WARNING THEN GOTO _ERRORe $= $   WSO := WRITE SYS$OUTPUTc $   SHOW ENTRY/FULL 'P1'6 $   BATCH_PID = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_ENTRY","JOB_PID",P1) $   IF (BATCH_PID .EQS. "")l $   THEN $       WSO " "d& $       WSO "No PID; job not running." $       GOTO _EXIT	 $   ENDIF  $   WSO " "c# $   WSO "Process creation time: ",-u0         F$CVTIME(F$GETJPI(BATCH_PID,"LOGINTIM"))2 $   WSO "Image: ''F$GETJPI(BATCH_PID,"IMAGNAME")'"  $   SHOW PROCESS /ID='BATCH_PID'; $   IF (P2 .NES. "") THEN SHOW PROCESS /ID='BATCH_PID' 'P2'i $   WSO " "26 $   SHOW SYSTEM/BATCH/OUTPUT=SYS$SCRATCH:AEFBAT.AEFTMP8 $   SEARCH /NOHIGHLIGHT      SYS$SCRATCH:AEFBAT.AEFTMP -2         'BATCH_PID',"on node","Process Name"/EXACT $e $_CONTROL_Y: $   STATUS = %xC $   GOTO _EXIT $U $_ERROR: $   STATUS = $STATUS $   GOTO _EXIT $  $_EXIT:t $   SET NOON< $   IF (F$SEARCH("SYS$SCRATCH:AEFBAT.AEFTMP").NES."") THEN -0         DELETE/NOLOG SYS$SCRATCH:AEFBAT.AEFTMP;* $   WSO " "= $   EXIT STATUS .OR. %X10000000    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmanh afeldman~~/\~~gfigroup.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:33:02 -0500i* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>D Subject: RE: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and- Message-ID: <0033000047439324000002L042*@MHS>n  < =0AUnless somebody really lost it and shipped 'em all to the) infamous "Dock Door D001" in Contoocook..a   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ( Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 1:44 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETD Subject: RE: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and    H John McLean wrote in message <3C3DDC73.90582B9A@swissonline.delete.ch>.= .t >r      snip   E >BTW, a few weeks back we had someone here saying that Wildfire salesr@ >were way down and that warehouses were surprisingly empty.  ;-) >'    H Hmm.  And somehow contradictory.  You would expect to find warehouses t= o beF suprisingly full, if sales were way down - or empty if sales were up.=   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:09:42 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>U Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat   Estimatesp> Message-ID: <qqn%7.65241$Sj1.26702548@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C3DDC73.90582B9A@swissonline.delete.ch...s >t >e > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:s > > B > > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message3 > > news:3C3C9070.6934F106@swissonline.delete.ch...r
 > > <snip>L > > > The Jan 16th announcement will be interesting in a general sense but I) > > > expect few, if any, real surprises.  > > >a > >yJ > > There might be some surprising and positive news on the WildFire sales > > front. ;-} > >n >eI > I really hope there's good sales outside the niche markets.  That mighte2 > encourage Compaq to consider a broader approach. > F > BTW, a few weeks back we had someone here saying that Wildfire salesA > were way down and that warehouses were surprisingly empty.  ;-)f  I As of 5 December in London, Peter Blackmore said that Switzerland had itsoI best WildFire quarter ever in 3FQ01. Perhaps the Phrase that Pays for 4FQ & WildFire will be Arrividerci Roma. ;-}   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:22:42 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)vT Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat  Estimates3 Message-ID: <1OMokAiItfjb@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  u In article <3zk%7.65187$Sj1.26641621@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes:i > @ > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message1 > news:3C3C9070.6934F106@swissonline.delete.ch...  > <snip>I >> The Jan 16th announcement will be interesting in a general sense but Is& >> expect few, if any, real surprises. >> > H > There might be some surprising and positive news on the WildFire sales > front. ;-}  F    Face it.  A lot of sytems were lots in New York.  While VMSclustersG    may have carried companies through it, those systems did need to getPE    replaced.  I'll bet IBM and Sun also saw a boost in large systems.u   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:13:50 GMTd4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>T Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat  Estimates> Message-ID: <27q%7.65287$Sj1.26823607@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  : "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:1OMokAiItfjb@eisner.encompasserve.org...gJ > In article <3zk%7.65187$Sj1.26641621@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, "Terry C., Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net> writes: > >tB > > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message3 > > news:3C3C9070.6934F106@swissonline.delete.ch...t
 > > <snip>K > >> The Jan 16th announcement will be interesting in a general sense but Is( > >> expect few, if any, real surprises. > >> > >oJ > > There might be some surprising and positive news on the WildFire sales > > front. ;-} >iH >    Face it.  A lot of sytems were lots in New York.  While VMSclustersI >    may have carried companies through it, those systems did need to getcG >    replaced.  I'll bet IBM and Sun also saw a boost in large systems.b  E Quite likely. One of the areas where WildFire did well was quite someeH distance from where Al Queda terrorist vermin declared war on the UnitedJ States of America. Actually, the place in question is a few thousand milesL closer to where the cowardly, murderous rats are currently burrowed (or, one would hope, entombed).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:57:51 -0500t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> Y Subject: Re: From the New York Times today Compaq to Post Profit and Beat Estimates Estim., Message-ID: <3C3E1C6B.21DC40B6@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:H >    Face it.  A lot of sytems were lots in New York.  While VMSclustersI >    may have carried companies through it, those systems did need to get G >    replaced.  I'll bet IBM and Sun also saw a boost in large systems.l  N For the adjoining buildings which got little damage but remained closed, wouldK a company have bothered buying a new VMS system knowing that in a couple ofxH months they would re-integrate their real offices and get acces to their former primary host ?n  K In other words, how long are companies willing to live on only their backup = system until they are allowed back in their primary offices ?   K Now, if we are talking about WTC tennants whose offices were flattened, howaL many in the WTC would have had VMS systems located on the premises  ? 5 or 6
 tennants ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 03:18:57 GMTl2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>) Subject: Re: Getting DEC ADA 3.5A to workaC Message-ID: <BQs%7.155420$lV4.26774216@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com>a  . Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@spamcop.net> wrote:N > In article <3c3d5587$1@news.post.ch>, "Jakob Erber" <erberj@post.ch> writes:N >> Keep in mind, that Compaq Ada83 will not make it to Itanium. This makes you% >> effort even more questionable :-).i  L It's a Hobbyist Alpha system.  I think it's safe to assume that it will be aK *long* while before I have a chance to upgrade to a Hobbyist Itanium systemaH (that will partitially depend on hardware requirements to run OpenVMS onG Itanium).  As such, the only real problem I see here is that it's Ada83rH instead of Ada95, however, as near as I can tell GNAT isn't available to Hobbyists on OpenVMS.a  H > That certainly seems like FUD.  His stated goal was to try programmingF > in Ada on a VAX.  Compaq has said there will be _an_ Ada compiler onG > Itanium VMS.  While it is true this little lesson in not putting yourlI > source files into the library directory will not be directly applicablefF > to any other Ada compiler, the programming he did for Hello World is > certainly applicable.e  H > My presumption was that his next step would be to enhance the program,G > rather than look for new ways to run into problems with the compiler.   D Pretty much.  The 'Hello, World' program was to make sure that I hadH everything working correctly and knew how to build a program.  Now I can4 start learning Ada and not have to worry about that.   			Zanea   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:57:16 -0500 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>P: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <Ixl%7.528$5Y4.14710@news.cpqcorp.net>   JD wrote in message ...i >o@ >"Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in message$ news:3C3D6051.A826652@mediasec.de...G >> > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD. Many computer languages doo [...]0 >> >>5 >> Case-sensitive lookups violate the last two items.3 >>F >Case-sensitvity is even important in ENGLISH usage.   There really is
 little recentgL >precedent, except for artistic motives.   Upper/lower case properly done is muchJ >more readable, and for those who dislike upper/lower case sensitivity can create$ >that in the libraries and userland. >r    H Shit.  The case sensitivity string that finally died out on comp.arch is back.o  : You are confusing case preservation with case sensitivity.  E It is perfectly OK to have a filename "FredKleinsorge" - that is caset= preservation.  But in my (and many others) opinion specifyingiD "FredKleinsorge" and "fredkleinsorge" to the filesystem to locate anJ existing file should work identically - that is case insensitive matching.  H On VMS (V7.2-6C1, and I believe in the next V7.3-x release) you can use:  $ $ set proc/case=sensitive (or blind)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:03:06 -0500n5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <aDl%7.529$5Y4.14743@news.cpqcorp.net>   JD wrote in message ...g >i >rF >Even VMS by default, normalizes the case on the command line?   ThereC >is no valid reason for that.   A proper design would allow for thee
 specificationaF >of case insensitivity when desired, rather than fixing that behavior. >e    # $ set proc/case=sensitive/parse=ext  $ set proc/case=blindt  J >Of course, there is no sense in doing it today.   Those who don't want toG >UC/LC their filenames don't have to.   Under UNIX, for example, if youlE >use the default LC, then that is what you get.   There is no need tosF >do anything other than binary comparison of filenames, for UI reasonsD >(unless the UI wants to modify the behavior), or for the purpose of >automated filename generation.u >eE >Anyone who believes that capitalization isn't part of standard usageo probably3 >believes that ee cummings writing style is normal.h    / But is EE Cummings the same guy as ee cummings?e  ( Is the file foo.bar the same as FOO.BAR?  I Case preservation is fine, but once created lookup should be insensitive.DJ But to do this correctly from the start, you also need to then prevent the; creation of both Foo.Bar and foo.bar in the same directory.v   This can't be fixed for UNIX.a  K We give people the option on VMS of how to do things - mostly to be able totJ represent files from non-VMS sources.  But mixing modes can create logicalK inconsistancy.  Hey, we gave you the gun (as the Unix people say) feel freer to shoot off your foot.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:08:53 -0500r5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>t: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <BIl%7.530$5Y4.14704@news.cpqcorp.net>    Bob Koehler wrote in message ...J >In article <fu3%7.99$vb1.13438@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:d >eL >> Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD.   Many computer languages do, and- >> it is a superset to be able to distingush.s > / >   Many computer langauges are poorly crafted.n >nI >   The only criteria I will accept is how good the tehcnique is at humanvI >   interface.  Case insensitive systems are demonstrably better at humaniG >   interface than case sensitive systems.  Case preserving systems aredI >   demonstrably better than non-preserving systems.  So case preserving, I >   case insensitive systems such as ODS-5, Mac OS, or Windows are bettert >   than UNIX or ODS-2._ >_E >   I do fault ODS-5 for it's need to have an escape character, but IyF >   think that was considered to be the lesser of two evils, the otherC >   being breakage of upward compatability.  And I believe COE will9; >   force the breakage and removal of the escape character.  >   H But in reality, you don't need the escape character for mixed case.  YouK need it to make special characters unambiguous - like embedding a ":" whichoC can be done, which is akin to UNIX allowing a "/" to be part of then	 filename.)  L I believe that from the *DCL* level you will always need a way to distingushH between a file named sys$system:foo.bar  and a file named foo.bar in theJ sys$system directory.  But if you are in a UNIX shell, or in the GUI (withI the right setup enabled) or in a C program (again with the right setup) - 5 you will be able to specify a UNIX path and filename.t  E >   I do not fault ODS-5 for not allowing wildcard characters as part J >   of the filename.  I think my post on the *.C file recalls just how badI >   that is for human interface.  Unfortunately I think it's already beenA! >   said the COE will break this.I >P   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:11:34 -0500.5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>h: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <7Ll%7.531$5Y4.14710@news.cpqcorp.net>   JD wrote in message ...  >n      snipa   > L >Frankly, the issue of case insensitivity is that of backwards compatibilityK >from systems where there was NO ability to represent case senstivitiy.   Iv; >am not biased by previous history (even when I was there.)  >oJ >I cannot believe some of these regressive arguments about legacy featuresF >from the past.   Remember:  even VMS, by default distorts the case ofF >the command line.   THAT IS LEGACY BEHAVIOR, and has been very slowly+ >corrected, because of REGRESSIVE thinking.a >     H Not really.  VMS users have been relatively happy with case insensitive,J upper case only file names.  The behavior changes have been introduced for' interoperability with Unix and Windows.i   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:16:37 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <ff2aPkKbwJH8@eisner.encompasserve.org>   R In article <vNh%7.143$vb1.22417@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:N > Case imparts information.   There are issues of backwards compatibility, but? > being stuck in the past isn't really what we should be doing.   A    Case preserving is sufficient to impart the information.  Case     sensitivity doesn't help.  N > The only criteria that I accept is that human factors need to be provided byL > UI levels, and putting limitations at the WRONG levels is BAD design.   If: > a UI needs to be limited, then it needs to be put there. > U > Are you actually for the full readability of RMS files?   Of course not...   Should R > Oracle databases be readable by 'cat' or 'pip' in such a way to make full sense? > Maybe so, but they aren't.  D    An OS with a bad human interface becomes the bad example by which>    programmers design new user interfaces.  And I prefer my OSH    completely written, so I don't have to correct it in my code.  The OS7    itself certainly should have a good human interface.   I    RMS files are "fully readable" if they're in ASCII.  Just try the type!C    command on any RMS file, including keyed-indexed, where the datar    is all ASCII.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:18:02 -0800 < From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC) Message-ID: <3C3DE8EA.5385384E@intel.com>s  	 JD wrote:T  ] > "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message news:9JAN200220522593@gerg.tamu.edu...=W > > In article <PSY_7.48$vb1.10237@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes...O > > }P? > > }"Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message / > news:sEXGJbLGZSav@eisner.encompasserve.org..._^ > > }> In article <vNI_7.809$Kf.14422@ord-read.news.verio.net>, reobert@bonomi.invalid writes: > > }> >T > > }> > How can it be "consistent", when it's valid in some instances, and 'illegal > > }> > syntax' in others?. > > }>D > > }>    The documented consistent behaviour is different for inputL > > }>    and output files.  One could take the point of view that wildcardsN > > }>    always mean "look for existing files for input", and "make new file"N > > }>    for  output, whether the output file already has an existing version > > }>    or not._ > > }>O > > }>    But the distinction is not DCL's, it's yours.  To DCL both are simply  > > }>    lists of file names. > > }>N > > }Nope, the second list of filenames in 'rename' isn't a LIST OF FILENAMES,N > > }but is a prototype of a specification of a new set of names.   This isn't% > > }the same as a list of filenames.  > > } 	 > > }John1 > >lN > > The first one isn't a list of filenames either. It is a prototype that the7 > > program uses to find which files are to be renamed.l > >oQ > That is the same as a list of filenames.   Refer to almost every doco regardingo > wildcard expansion.-  L     I'd note that "almost every doco" is irrelevant.  The VMS documentation,M specifically, the DCL Help entries for COPY, RENAME and DELETE (as a sampling@N of file related commands) NEVER refer to "wildcard expansion".  The entries doN use the phrase "specify the names of one or more files", but more specificallyL refer to "file specifications" and the use of wildcard characters in variousI fields of file specifications.  NEVER, NEVER, NEVER do they say "wildcardiH expansion", or that being equivalent to a "list of files".  And for good# reason: it would be wrong to do so.r    N > It isn't consistant to use the same kind of spec for a 'list of names' being< > virtual or literal and also as the transformation grammar.  J     Fine, not relevant.  If you didn't have unix blinders on, you wouldn'tH have such a problem with the concepts (like the difficulty in learning aI new language with an entirely different grammar than you're used to).  InsN context (i.e., usage within the language), DCL wildcard semantics are entirely* consistent, just not what YOU are used to.  K     I'll offer just one observation: wildcards in DCL have the semantics of J "match something I care not to explicitly type".  This allows much broaderE use AND tailoring to particular contexts than would a more RESTRICTED K semantics that said BOTH "match file names" and "expand to a list".  That'suK why it's natural in DCL to use wildcards not just in file applications, but M also with queues, symbols, logical names, and a bunch of other things I can'toN think of at the moment.  To a DCL user, this seems HIGHLY consistent.  Indeed,M the inability to use a wildcard to specify, e.g., a print queue name to 'lpq'e) seems highly inconsistent and annoying...e       -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:19:10 -0500e5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>-: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <eSl%7.532$5Y4.14781@news.cpqcorp.net>   JD wrote in message ...m > K ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1kclj$p75$4@bob.news.rcn.net...s5 >> In article <vNh%7.143$vb1.22417@news1.iquest.net>,o$ >>    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote: >> >> >> >"Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message0 >> news:TgDTzQHR5SD5@eisner.encompasserve.org...< >> >> In article <fu3%7.99$vb1.13438@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" >> <dyson@jdyson.com> writes:r >> >>iI >> >> > Distingushing upper/lower case is GOOD.   Many computer languages  do,  >> and2 >> >> > it is a superset to be able to distingush. >> >> 4 >> >>    Many computer langauges are poorly crafted. >> >>oH >> >>    The only criteria I will accept is how good the tehcnique is at humaniH >> >>    interface.  Case insensitive systems are demonstrably better at humane/ >> >>    interface than case sensitive systems.r	 >> <snip>0 >>= >> >Not all applications should be limited by the filesystem.e >>< >> It had damn well better be limited if it intends to write# >> or read any data on that system.2 >>8 >You missed the context, and followups should quote thisF >entire message:   Not all applications should be limited by arbitraryB >filesystem limitations.   The limitations for UI purposes need to= >be placed into the UI.   There is alot to argue for extendednF >character sets.   There is alot of roman character set provincialism,= >and the notion (mistaken) that UC and LC have the exact same.	 >meaning.  >i    C I disagree.  There should be no way to create a file that cannot be L referenced (displayed or specified) from the user interface.  If you provideK no limits on what a filename can be in the filesystem, then you must eitheriL craft a very good and consistant way of specifying files, or you may need toK be able to allow a representation of characters that would cause ambiguity.   J If you can create a file named foo/bar on UNIX, then you should be able toI specify foo/bar in a command line in an unambibuous way.  That is not thefI case on UNIX.  As it is not the case in VMS that the ":" can be used in amL filename without being able to to differentiate between it's use as a device
 seperator.  F So if an application can create Foo.Bar and FOO.BAR then the UI should- provide a way to distinguish these two files.,  J However, many people feel that from a useabilty point of view, Foo.Bar andI foo.bar and FOO.BAR should all reference the same file.  But you can't dosE this unambiguously if the filesystem permits case to be a distinctionh9 between files of the same names, but with differing case.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:26:35 -0500 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>a: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <bZl%7.533$5Y4.14700@news.cpqcorp.net>  # Peter da Silva wrote in message ...uC >In article <zl3%7.412650$C8.29990374@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, * >Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:H >>However, a file system is *truly* broken if it *distinguishes* between upperiH >>and lower case in file names (rather than just preserving the case the name= >>was created with and performing case-insensitive look-ups).h > H >How do you in general determine what the uppercase form of an arbitraryE >character is? What is the uppercase form of "/home/rne"? What about-0 >about ""? Should that match a file named "SS"? >     J Now you are into the interesting stuff.  It's pretty easy for English, butJ case *changing* becomes harder in some other languages.  The question hereK isn't so much what is the uppercase derivitive of "/home/rne" but if there1H *is* an uppercase derivitive of it, will it match the lowercase version.  H Unfortunately, outside of say the simple ASCII or ISO-Latin 1 sets, case, rules are not a simple bit set or bit clear.  F Your last example really points out some interesting areas of thought.J Ideally, I suppose  should match SS - if your system language was German.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:30:28 -0500 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>8: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <Q0m%7.534$5Y4.14765@news.cpqcorp.net>  A Carl Perkins wrote in message <9JAN200221084771@gerg.tamu.edu>...n >aG >VMS can handle mixed case filenames these days. It is case preserving, I >but not case sensitive - it has never been case sensitive, unless it waslI >before V3.7 or so when I first used VMS, but it has only recently (abouthF >a year or so ago) gained a filesystem that preserves the case insteadD >of converting all filenames to uppercase. Not all sites use the new# >filesystem (I don't, for example).k >r    3 Comming soon:  $ set proc/case=sensitive (or blind)t  ; Available in V7.2-6C1 (COE) and in the next V7.3-x release.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:36:55 -0500 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <T6m%7.536$5Y4.14803@news.cpqcorp.net>  ! Don Chiasson wrote in message ...: >:: >"John J Francini" <francini1026@mac.com> wrote in messageF >news:francini1026-ya02408000R1001020302190001@news.ne.mediaone.net...	 ><<snip>>rG >> When I was a first-time C user, I was bit by case sensitivity.  This5 >was@ >> back in 1981, doing C (using a non-DEC Whitesmiths' compiler)B >> on a VAX/VMS system.  C's case sensitivity felt ludicrously outB >> of place after years of using case-folding OSes and programming
 >> languages.T >>B >> I felt that it introduced an entire new class of coding errors,= >> simply due to the fact that variable and keyword case were  >> required to match.p >>	 ><<snip>>s< >> Consequently, I consider languages, command interpreters,D >> filesystems, and OSes that inflict "the tyrrany of case-matching"= >> on their users or developers to be _fundamentally_ broken.c= >> Period.  I have yet to see _any_ argument over the past 21K) >> years that has convinced me otherwise.B	 ><<snip.>nF >        I recall a friend remarking (or did I see it on AFC?) about aF >prof who was very much in favour of using case in variable names. OneG >student felt this was ridiculous and wrote programs using one word fornH >all variables, just changing the case. For example if he used his name,I >say Dave, this would allow 2^4 = 16 variables. How's that for increasing0 >the chance of error?s >            Don    J Better yet, I was porting a widely used certification test suite which hadJ two global routines defined called "delete" and "Delete" - think that theyE did the same thing?  Think that all the places it was used called thenC routine it thought it was calling?  Nope.  And because there was nooG prototype of the routine, it didn't even notice that there were not theh right number of arguments.  J Only found because the way I was compiling it was not preserving the case, and the linker didn't like it.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 12:50:50 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.514360.killspam.00c9 (Wayne Sewell)t: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC. Message-ID: <Ds76j0pnk5OI@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  E In article <a1hgqr$507$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:u- > In article <a1f9lk$q4v$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, 7 >    bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:a, >>In article <3C3A47F6.4D37E7D4@Empire.Net>,, >> John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net> writes:0 >>|> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote (highly excerpted): >>|> .# >>|> When I typed on an ASR36, ....e >>|>   >>|> John Sauter teased: >>|> s@ >>|> What's an ASR36?  Maybe you mean an ASR35, the "battleship"> >>|> teletype?  You couldn't have meant the LA36, its keys all >>|> sounded alike.r >>D >>As long as we're getting nostalgic here, my first hardcopy printer" >>at home was a Lorenz LO-15.  :-) > B > <grin>  Sounds like a pill for sore throats.  ;-)  Just rememberB > that, if I can't keep my ASRs straight, I have no hope for other
 > vendors.    M Hey, you guys had it good.  At least your printers were ASCII and could print O more than one line.  My first home printer, circa 1975, was a *Baudot* teletypecJ that printed a continuous *strip* of text, similar to ticker tape.  If youO wanted a page, you had to cut up the strips and tape them to a sheet of paper. IL Sorta like a ransom note, except that the characters were all the same size, color, and font.  :-)i    N To make it even more entertaining, the Baudot code has much fewer bits (five?)M and therefore doesn't have enough distinct codes to have both upper and lowernJ case.  Therefore, upshift and downshift codes had to be placed in the data> stream.   The sequence of codes for printing my name would be:  7 	"<upshift>w<downshift>ayne <upshift>s<downshift>ewell".  I It caused an actual physical shift, just like an old typewriter, with theyM corresponding thump.  The thing sounded like a freight train even without theSK carriage shifts.  It was so heavy that I was looking forward to meeting thefL cute girl in the apartment below when my printer and I came crashing through her ceiling.     -- wO ===============================================================================EM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx : http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-):O ===============================================================================iN Sparky (from Bring It On): "In cheerleading, we throw people in the air.  Fat  	people don't go as high."   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 12:52:37 -08003 From: Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com>I: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC0 Message-ID: <qhlmf6szca.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>  . Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:D > BTW, who ever made the claim that TOPS-10 could have a file '*.C',D > sorry, '*' is not in the RAD50 character set, and all TOPS-10 file, > names used RAD50. What did 20s use? ASCII?  A False.  TOPS-10 file names used SIXBIT.  A file named '*.C' could- be created very easily.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:26:09 -0800@+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>v: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECU Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201101324390.2525-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>h  % On 10 Jan 2002, Paul Repacholi wrote:bD > BTW, who ever made the claim that TOPS-10 could have a file '*.C',D > sorry, '*' is not in the RAD50 character set, and all TOPS-10 file > names used RAD50.   H Sorry.  TOPS-10 did not use RAD50 file names.  It used SIXBIT, and I can: assure you that "*" is a perfectly valid SIXBIT character.  2 TOPS-10 most certainly could have a file named *.C   > What did 20s use? ASCII?   Yes.  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:49:22 -0800f+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECU Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201101329590.2525-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>n  < On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Jan C. [iso-8859-1] Vorbr=FCggen wrote:J > You don't seem to understand we want a case-preserving, case-insensitiveI > system - just about the only thing NTFS got right, with ODS-5 followingsJ > suit. Capitalization is an aid to text comprehension, but it changes the@ > meaning only in very rare cases. _That_ is the proper analogy.  H Yes, I appreciate the NTFS behavior too.  But you are missing the point.  I Equivalency between a UC and LC character is contextual.  It depends uponaC the language, and sometimes the region, of a particular individual.I  @ Think about this carefully.  This means that if you presume caseI independence, there are name string pairs that refer to *different* names 3 in one place, but the *same* name in another place.   F It is therefore impossible to have case independent file names without doing one of the following:o3  1) have inappropriate case matches in some regionse7  2) have inappropriate case non-matches in some regionstF  3) have non-portability of names between regions since the filesystem!     is different for each region.a  3 This situation comes up even with the Latin script.   = Furthermore, as you acknowledge, there are instances in which ' capitalization does change the meaning.   
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:15:20 -0800 + From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>c: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECU Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201101353010.2525-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>1  + On Thu, 10 Jan 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote: L > Now you are into the interesting stuff.  It's pretty easy for English, bu= tgL > case *changing* becomes harder in some other languages.  The question her= e9L > isn't so much what is the uppercase derivitive of "/home/r=E9ne" but if t= hereJ > *is* an uppercase derivitive of it, will it match the lowercase version.  C Exactly!  And you are stuck with implementing one of three choices:i  a) inappropriate matching  b) inappropriate non-matching  c) non-portable matching   J There is also the choice of "only match the 26 basic Latin alphabetics andI the hell with anything else", but that's really a form of choice (b) so Ii don't list it separately.v  J > Unfortunately, outside of say the simple ASCII or ISO-Latin 1 sets, case. > rules are not a simple bit set or bit clear.  F They aren't even clear within Latin 1, as the next comment points out:  H > Your last example really points out some interesting areas of thought.L > Ideally, I suppose =DF should match SS - if your system language was Germ= an.   $ Well, does ess-tset match SS or not?  J I can come up with an example, based upon which of the three choices above/ that you pick, for why you did the wrong thing.   I (c) seems to be the most attractive choice, until you realize how vitallydI important portability really is.  (c) is the choice that NTFS made, and Ir, have encountered the portability problems!!!  I The reason for case-sensitivity is not because of an evil desire to screweG people who are accustomed to case-insensitivity.  It's because when you C look at the larger issue, there is no way (and I do mean no way) tocF implement case-insensitivity without doing the wrong thing to someone.  @ More specifically, there is no way to make case-insensitivity beJ fully appropriate, never inappropriate, and completely portable.  You have' to compromise on at least one of these.n  J Once you make the difficult choice to be case-sensitive, you don't have toH deal with these problems.  You have appropriate and predictable behaviorD that is completely portable.  What you don't have is a match between "foo.bar" and "FOO.BAR".  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrciF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 17:40:09 -0500& From: fdc@columbia.edu (Frank da Cruz): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1l589$rto$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu>   
 In articleJ <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201101329590.2525-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,- Mark Crispin  <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:S : ... B : Think about this carefully.  This means that if you presume caseK : independence, there are name string pairs that refer to *different* namest5 : in one place, but the *same* name in another place.n : H : It is therefore impossible to have case independent file names without : doing one of the following:d5 :  1) have inappropriate case matches in some regions 9 :  2) have inappropriate case non-matches in some regions H :  3) have non-portability of names between regions since the filesystem# :     is different for each region.- : G Welcome to the new world of computing as we never knew it.  Matters areeH even worse than Mark says when you consider that the future direction isJ for all computer text to converge on Unicode (normally UTF-8 on the wire),	 in which:   B  . A single character such as a-grave may be represented either asB    one code point (precomposed) or two (base letter plus combining?    diacritic) (this doesn't sound too bad until you think aboutr    Vietnamese...)s  D  . Every character must be looked up in a database to find out if itC    is a standalone character or a combining character, and what its>C    case mappings are (and even then, as Mark says, this is languagee    and region dependent).u  F  . Since combining characters *follow* base characters, you never knowE    what the current character is supposed to be until you have looked>5    ahead to the next (and maybe the ones after that).o  D  . Combining sequences must be "normalized", which involves database    lookups and sorting.t  C  . Lots of characters look exactly alike, such as Latin A, Greek A,n;    and Cyrillic A.  Imagine the possibilities for mischief.i  B As confusing as this sounds, it's actually LESS confusing than theF current situation, in which you can't tell what character set was usedE to create a file or file name, and therefore you haven't a clue aboutiF how to convert the case.  To illustrate: a shared Unix system might beG used by a German and a Russian.  The German sets her terminal emulator oI for Latin-9, the Russian for KOI-8R.  How is the OS going to case-converteI the filenames?  If all filenames are UTF-8 *by definition*, then at leasts there's a chance.i  D Bottom line: computing was ridiculously easy for us English speakersE (and ridiculously hard for everybody else) up til now, but those daysuB are rapidly drawing to a close.  It's only a matter of time before: "hello world" takes several thousand lines of source code.   - Frankf   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:07:37 -0700h+ From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca>t: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C3E2CC9.2E27B9A2@jetnet.ab.ca>  	 AG wrote:h7 > But MOST important of all the transparent (invisible)M# > file names for the deleted stuff.e  ) Nope ... the Files would be 'grayed' out.e- Virus would be 'florescent green' when found. , Also a corrupted file would use a font made  up of tiny 'holes'. :) --  % Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * + www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.htmlt   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 19:05:06 -0500s From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>h: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <7Up%7.167$vb1.27100@news1.iquest.net>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagee: news:Vvl%7.27526$Oc.2351148@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >e* > "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote in message. > news:aNi%7.148$vb1.22805@news1.iquest.net... > >DN > > <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1kcg8$p75$3@bob.news.rcn.net...8 > > > In article <OHh%7.142$vb1.22177@news1.iquest.net>,' > > >    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:a >n > ...t > L > > > >Case-sensitvity is even important in ENGLISH usage.   There really is > > > little recentiJ > > > >precedent, except for artistic motives.   Upper/lower case properly > done
 > > > is mucheL > > > >more readable, and for those who dislike upper/lower case sensitivity > canm > > > create* > > > >that in the libraries and userland. >fJ > You really should talk less and listen more, so I'll speak a bit louder: > N > SUPPORTING MIXED CASE IN FILE NAMES FOR READABILITY IS A GOOD THING, BUT *INJ > NO WAY* REQUIRES ALSO MAKING THEM CASE-SENSITIVE (WHICH IS A BAD THING). >sW There is no reason to implement a hack to compare case to be equal at the OS/Filesystemc\ level.   Such a hack requires language specific mechanisms, and a filename isn't necessarily an English proper name.i  S Remember again:   Filenames aren't necessarily English proper names.   Beyond this,yW it is simply misleading to call the name 'Makefile' to be the same as 'makefile'.   The C reason why it is misleading is that the names are simply different.   / Again, this begs the issue of English-centrism.   S I understand the issue that you speak of, but making two different names compare asnW the same is a matter of UI and not underlying OS.   Frankly, making two different namesi. compare as the same is a matter for neophytes.  S The whole reason for case insensitivity in comparisons is obviously a result of thecU contortions of old OSes (which I still like, but understand their limitations) livingeN in a single case world.   We don't even have single byte characters anymore!!!  L OSes that blatently upper-case (or lower-case) a command line will obviouslyO distort filename case anyway.   The case insensitive comparisons come from when T it wasn't even reliable that you had a terminal that could even easily enter a lower case character anyway.  \ Remember:  if you have a full feature filesystem, then you can easily add case insensitivity\ in the UI.   If you have a limited scheme where the comparisons always lie about 'M' == 'm',2 then you have unnecessarily limited the semantics.  : Again:  FILENAMES aren't necessarily English proper names.   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 19:10:47 -05001 From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>e: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <sZp%7.168$vb1.27219@news1.iquest.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:T6m%7.536$5Y4.14803@news.cpqcorp.net... >t# > Don Chiasson wrote in message ...s > >d< > >"John J Francini" <francini1026@mac.com> wrote in messageH > >news:francini1026-ya02408000R1001020302190001@news.ne.mediaone.net... > ><<snip>>aI > >> When I was a first-time C user, I was bit by case sensitivity.  Thise > >wasB > >> back in 1981, doing C (using a non-DEC Whitesmiths' compiler)D > >> on a VAX/VMS system.  C's case sensitivity felt ludicrously outD > >> of place after years of using case-folding OSes and programming > >> languages.o > >>D > >> I felt that it introduced an entire new class of coding errors,? > >> simply due to the fact that variable and keyword case weret > >> required to match.c > >> > ><<snip>>g> > >> Consequently, I consider languages, command interpreters,F > >> filesystems, and OSes that inflict "the tyrrany of case-matching"? > >> on their users or developers to be _fundamentally_ broken.l? > >> Period.  I have yet to see _any_ argument over the past 21f+ > >> years that has convinced me otherwise.  > ><<snip.> H > >        I recall a friend remarking (or did I see it on AFC?) about aH > >prof who was very much in favour of using case in variable names. OneI > >student felt this was ridiculous and wrote programs using one word foraJ > >all variables, just changing the case. For example if he used his name,K > >say Dave, this would allow 2^4 = 16 variables. How's that for increasingu > >the chance of error?c > >            Don >s >iL > Better yet, I was porting a widely used certification test suite which hadL > two global routines defined called "delete" and "Delete" - think that theyG > did the same thing?  Think that all the places it was used called the E > routine it thought it was calling?  Nope.  And because there was no1I > prototype of the routine, it didn't even notice that there were not the9 > right number of arguments. > L > Only found because the way I was compiling it was not preserving the case,  > and the linker didn't like it. ><I The ONLY time that I EVER had problems with case sensitivity was WAY BACKdJ WHEN, in my inexperience, that I had mostly only used DEC OSes that didn't properly distinguish.a  T Once one has a little more experience (or never been tainted by case insensitivity),3 the issue of case sensitivity is easy to deal with.r  M Being caught unaware (going either direction) is where troubles occur.   WhenhO I converted from a case insensitive to case sensitive environment, it was easy.   P We all tend to get used to what we know.   I have gone through the transition to> modern systems also, and it isn't that difficult to deal with.  M The amazing thing is that when case insensitivity is implemented, it tends toiO be provincially English limited, and that doesn't really do justice to the usermH base.   Given that case sensitivity AT THE FILESYSTEM LEVEL handles bothB the provincial UC/LC insensitive case AND the case sensitive case.  < AGAIN:   Filenames are NOT necessarily english proper nouns.   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 19:14:36 -0500( From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>a: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <21q%7.169$vb1.27204@news1.iquest.net>  G "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> wrote in messageu# news:3C3DE8EA.5385384E@intel.com...  > JD wrote:w >i_ > > "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message news:9JAN200220522593@gerg.tamu.edu...oY > > > In article <PSY_7.48$vb1.10237@news1.iquest.net>, "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes...t > > > }eA > > > }"Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in messagea1 > > news:sEXGJbLGZSav@eisner.encompasserve.org...r` > > > }> In article <vNI_7.809$Kf.14422@ord-read.news.verio.net>, reobert@bonomi.invalid writes:
 > > > }> >V > > > }> > How can it be "consistent", when it's valid in some instances, and 'illegal > > > }> > syntax' in others?h > > > }>F > > > }>    The documented consistent behaviour is different for inputN > > > }>    and output files.  One could take the point of view that wildcardsP > > > }>    always mean "look for existing files for input", and "make new file"P > > > }>    for  output, whether the output file already has an existing version > > > }>    or not.5 > > > }>Q > > > }>    But the distinction is not DCL's, it's yours.  To DCL both are simplyd  > > > }>    lists of file names. > > > }>P > > > }Nope, the second list of filenames in 'rename' isn't a LIST OF FILENAMES,P > > > }but is a prototype of a specification of a new set of names.   This isn't' > > > }the same as a list of filenames.  > > > }O > > > }John  > > >sP > > > The first one isn't a list of filenames either. It is a prototype that the9 > > > program uses to find which files are to be renamed.- > > >-S > > That is the same as a list of filenames.   Refer to almost every doco regarding. > > wildcard expansion.: >:N >     I'd note that "almost every doco" is irrelevant.  The VMS documentation,O > specifically, the DCL Help entries for COPY, RENAME and DELETE (as a samplingpP > of file related commands) NEVER refer to "wildcard expansion".  The entries doP > use the phrase "specify the names of one or more files", but more specificallyN > refer to "file specifications" and the use of wildcard characters in various  > fields of file specifications. >rV Okay:   the first 'wildcard' is a specifies the names of one or more files.   However,T the 2nd one is a transformation.   This is inconsistant.   However, your descriptionU of the first wild filespec is close to my own description, but is VERY DIFFERENT from-R DCLs second filespec (the transformation, certainly not the specification of names of one or more files.)  R IN NO WAY is the second wildcard in a rename 'the names of one or more files', but( is a specification for a transformation.  J You continue to back my argument.   DCL has inconsistant semantics WRT theF wildcards.   This doesn't make it 'bad', but it makes it inconsistant.   John   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:31:52 GMTs* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECB Message-ID: <Ynq%7.606884$8q.48956926@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  3 "Frank da Cruz" <fdc@columbia.edu> wrote in messagea+ news:a1l589$rto$1@watsol.cc.columbia.edu...t > In articleL > <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201101329590.2525-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>,/ > Mark Crispin  <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:i > : ...sD > : Think about this carefully.  This means that if you presume caseG > : independence, there are name string pairs that refer to *different*t namesr7 > : in one place, but the *same* name in another place.o > :oJ > : It is therefore impossible to have case independent file names without > : doing one of the following: 7 > :  1) have inappropriate case matches in some regions ; > :  2) have inappropriate case non-matches in some regionsfJ > :  3) have non-portability of names between regions since the filesystem% > :     is different for each region.a > :sI > Welcome to the new world of computing as we never knew it.  Matters are J > even worse than Mark says when you consider that the future direction isL > for all computer text to converge on Unicode (normally UTF-8 on the wire), > in which:: >2D >  . A single character such as a-grave may be represented either asD >    one code point (precomposed) or two (base letter plus combiningA >    diacritic) (this doesn't sound too bad until you think aboutn >    Vietnamese...)e  H An excellent example of a situation where pure binary look-up mechanismsI produce even more confusing behavior than case-sensitivity produces:  twolH strings *display* absolutely identically on the screen or page but don'tK match on look-up (because they formed those same characters using different  byte sequences).   >oF >  . Every character must be looked up in a database to find out if itE >    is a standalone character or a combining character, and what itscE >    case mappings are (and even then, as Mark says, this is languagea >    and region dependent).e  ? Exactly.  But (as I said elsewhere) this discussion isn't about A implementation difficulty but about what the 'right' approach is.t   >oH >  . Since combining characters *follow* base characters, you never knowG >    what the current character is supposed to be until you have lookede7 >    ahead to the next (and maybe the ones after that).t  F Again, an implementation issue:  there's no ambiguity in what the name eventually turns out to be.g   >wF >  . Combining sequences must be "normalized", which involves database >    lookups and sorting.   I Let's not get unduly pessimistic here:  the implementation *is* feasible,iL though not dirt-simple.  The most direct approach is to convert all names onL input to a single, normalized form for look-up (preserving the user-providedE name separately for presentation and other purposes).  Relatively few-K characters trigger significant exceptional handling, so while everyone paysoG code space for it only those languages that are 'difficult' pay much insI processing overhead (and not that much even then, compared with the othery overheads of a look-up).   >tE >  . Lots of characters look exactly alike, such as Latin A, Greek A,v= >    and Cyrillic A.  Imagine the possibilities for mischief.p  K Exactly - again, an instance where they should all match on look-up if theyh$ appear identical on the screen/page.   >uD > As confusing as this sounds, it's actually LESS confusing than theH > current situation, in which you can't tell what character set was usedG > to create a file or file name, and therefore you haven't a clue aboutsH > how to convert the case.  To illustrate: a shared Unix system might beH > used by a German and a Russian.  The German sets her terminal emulatorK > for Latin-9, the Russian for KOI-8R.  How is the OS going to case-convertvK > the filenames?  If all filenames are UTF-8 *by definition*, then at leasta > there's a chance.   F Yup - either per-name character-set specification (which doesn't allowF mixed-set names) or UNICODE/UTF-8 is necessary (probably the latter isG preferable if it is now sufficiently mature to be reasonably acceptabler world-wide).   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:45:04 GMTa* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECA Message-ID: <kAq%7.109099$Yf.7353616@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   8 "Mark Crispin" <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote in messageL news:Pine.NXT.4.50.0201101353010.2525-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU ...    ...s  I The reason for case-sensitivity is not because of an evil desire to screw G people who are accustomed to case-insensitivity.  It's because when you C look at the larger issue, there is no way (and I do mean no way) toiF implement case-insensitivity without doing the wrong thing to someone.  L < Perhaps.  But case-sensitivity does the wrong thing to *everyone* who uses cased languages.  @ More specifically, there is no way to make case-insensitivity beJ fully appropriate, never inappropriate, and completely portable.  You have' to compromise on at least one of these.n  L < And the appropriate compromise is the one that works the best for the mostI people.  People who don't use cased languages aren't affected either way. H People using cased languages get *mostly* intuitive behavior, modulo theK competence with which case-conversions are effected (and they can be prettye8 damn close to ideal for most situations - vide UNICODE's@ pnly-somewhat-convoluted case-insensitive comparison operations)  J Once you make the difficult choice to be case-sensitive, you don't have to deal with these problems.r  L <  No:  you instead pass them on to your users.  That's not my understandingI of how computers are supposed to make life easier for those who use them.a  /   You have appropriate and predictable behaviori that is completely portable.  G < The behavior is neither appropriate nor predictable for any users noteI already accustomed to this quirk.  Not to mention the even more-insidiousrE behavior of strings that display identically but do not match (due toOA differences in binary representation) mentioned in another recent8
 conversation.*  K < I really don't understand why you're so willing to make *all* users learn J to live with case-sensitivity (and those other decidedly counter-intuitive@ look-up behaviors) rather than make *a few* users put up with anD *occasional* implementation quirk that case-insensitivity (and otherK normalization) may be unable to avoid.  I suspect that the latter situation1G is far more acceptable, and in fact (given that such quirks can be made J rare) may lead to modest changes in the way those specific exception casesB are used by people in general:  people are willing to make *small*F adjustments in their accustomed behavior to accommodate computers, butL expect computers to minimize the magnitude of those adjustments where at all	 possible.d   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 19:01 CST-' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC- Message-ID: <10JAN200219011881@gerg.tamu.edu>1  ! "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> writes...sF }Yes it does...   The mistaken tradition of normalizing the display ofD }filenames to a fixed case (e.g. RAD50/SIXBIT) might have given riseL }to the mistaken notion that filename comparison should be case insensitive. }Johnn  C The problem is that you just made a false statement. This notion is7D *not* mistaken. All filename comparisons should be case insensitive.F This is true, good, and essential in any properly designed filesystem.   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 19:33 CSTa' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)i: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC- Message-ID: <10JAN200219335759@gerg.tamu.edu>t  9 "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes...mB }Carl Perkins wrote in message <9JAN200221084771@gerg.tamu.edu>... }>H }>VMS can handle mixed case filenames these days. It is case preserving,J }>but not case sensitive - it has never been case sensitive, unless it wasJ }>before V3.7 or so when I first used VMS, but it has only recently (aboutG }>a year or so ago) gained a filesystem that preserves the case instead E }>of converting all filenames to uppercase. Not all sites use the new $ }>filesystem (I don't, for example). } 4 }Comming soon:  $ set proc/case=sensitive (or blind) } < }Available in V7.2-6C1 (COE) and in the next V7.3-x release.  
 Yeah, I know.   > I would say that the only use this should ever be put to is to= deal with case sensitivity in files that are on a Unix system ? that are accessable to the VMS system (say, via NFS). Any otherh@ use should result in the user being smacked upside the head withA a large blunt object (its a pity that this can not be enforced bya the VMS system automatically).   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:18:55 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>p: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C3E5986.A6C4833A@videotron.ca>   Frank da Cruz wrote:F > Bottom line: computing was ridiculously easy for us English speakersG > (and ridiculously hard for everybody else) up til now, but those days D > are rapidly drawing to a close.  It's only a matter of time before< > "hello world" takes several thousand lines of source code.  > At the expense of computing. Look at bloatware from Microsoft.  M I think that having file metadata to include the file's character set as well I as mime-type would greatly simply things. You could have it like ALL-IN-1 L where the file name is actually a random sequence and you have a database ofN documents with full document title pointing to the random file name along with? lots of information about the document (such as content types).-   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 20:41:31 -08001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)a> Subject: Re: How many Fibre Channel - Multiple Hosts/4 Fabrics= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0201102041.5fccf96b@posting.google.com>z  W "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii@mail.com> wrote in message news:<3C3DD4C5.4D81B376@mail.com>...s0 > Any guestimates as to about how many of these: > G > Configuring Fibre Channel as an OpenVMS Cluster Storage Interconnect 0" > Multiple Hosts With Four Fabrics\ > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/fibre/doc/6318pro_003.html#mult_hosts_four_fabrics_f >  > are in existence?,  D All the high-availability FC-based clusters I've had any involvementD with use just two independent FC fabrics.  Perhaps that's due to theD present situation where FC net gear still seems relatively expensive@ compared with, for example, GbE.  (And since I tend to work withC disaster-tolerant clusters, the cost of additional inter-site linkstF can be an even bigger consideration, especially when you consider thatB you need redundant SCS-capable inter-site links in addition to the redundant FC links.)  D Triple redundancy would allow retaining the protection of redundancyF while a failure is being repaired.  (I've seen a case where one of twoE inter-site cluster links was down for 6 days straight.  That's a long + time to depend on the sole surviving link.)I  < You might think quadruple redundancy is a bit much, but manyA disaster-tolerant clusters have 4 physical disks for every disk'slC worth of data (a 2-member shadowset of 2-member mirrorsets, so thataF you still have protection against a disk failure even after a disaster% that destroys one entire datacenter).f  D Another very logical reason for four FC fabrics might be bandwidth. A Although FC provides a theoretical bandwidth of 100 megabytes periD second, I can easily imagine some applications which might need four# times that bandwidth, or even more. ? ---------------------------------------------------------------t? Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | Consulting on:t> Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Performance, I/O, Storage & SANs   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:28:18 -0800m0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>> Subject: Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V, Message-ID: <3C3D96F2.6C29EE9C@Mvb.Saic.Com>   Bob Koehler wrote: > a > In article <3C3C5454.1DC7FE0F@Mvb.Saic.Com>, Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes:p > > Bob Koehler wrote: > I > > SYS$SYSTEM:NCP.EXE, as shipped with phase V, is a functioning utilityiK > > that allows one to actually use (as opposed to translate) a limited set.F > > of NCP commands in a phase V environment.  Had you entered the NCPF > > commands used by the flight install procedure to create the flightA > > object into this utility, the object would have been created.h > I >    The NCP commands that execute during vmsinstal to declare the object ' >    are not recognized by Phase V NCP.a   $ sho sys/noprocG OpenVMS V7.3  on node MVB  10-JAN-2002 13:03:51.75  Uptime  93 01:10:45  $s	 $ mcr nclT3 NCL>show session control application flt$server allC  - Node 0 Session Control Application flt$server & at 2002-01-10-13:03:59.978-08:00I0.359   command failed due to:  no such object instance  	 NCL> Exit  $e	 $ mcr ncpa NCP>sho exec  0 Node Volatile Summary as of 10-JAN-2002 13:04:13   Executor node = 27.3 (MVB)   State                    = on21 Identification           = DECnet-OSI for OpenVMS     G NCP>def object flt$server number 0 file sys$system:flt$server.com proxy3 out user flt$server  NCP>set object flt$server allk	 NCP> Exitg $!D $! The above commands were extracted from the Kitinstal.Com file for Flight V3.1e $!	 $ mcr ncl12 NCL>sho session control application flt$server all  - Node 0 Session Control Application FLT$SERVERn& at 2002-01-10-13:06:35.052-08:00I0.363   Identifiersa  2     Name                              = FLT$SERVER   Status  '     Process Identifiers               =o        {        }'     UID                               =o$ D3089674-05CA-11D6-91EA-AA000400166C   Characteristicsl  7     Client                            = <Default value> '     Addresses                         =e        {           name = FLT$SERVERl        },     Outgoing Proxy                    = True-     Incoming Proxy                    = Falsef-     Outgoing Alias                    = False ,     Incoming Alias                    = True,     Node Synonym                      = TrueA     Image Name                        = SYS$SYSTEM:FLT$SERVER.COM 4     User Name                         = "FLT$SERVER"7     Incoming OSI TSEL                 = <Default value>'7     OutgoingAlias Name                = <Default value>t)     Network Priority                  = 0s   Counters  '     Creation Time                     = # 2002-01-10-13:06:13.610-08:00I0.361   	 NCL> Exitn  G So, speaking for my own systems at least, yes, it does.  I cannot speakaB for why it may not work for you as I only recently discovered thisB functionality and do not know how long it has been in there.  I am> running VMS V7.3 on an Alpha, perhaps that makes a difference.  
 Mark Berrymanr   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:36:19 -0800C0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>> Subject: Re: How to create the Flight object in DECnet Phase V, Message-ID: <3C3D98D3.7D3650A5@Mvb.Saic.Com>   Bob Koehler wrote: > a > In article <3C3B1033.3AFF8B70@Mvb.Saic.Com>, Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> writes: 8 > > CREATE NODE 0 SESSION CONTROL APPLICATION FLT$SERVER > >'A > > SET NODE 0 SESSION CONTROL APPLICATION FLT$SERVER ADDRESSES =  > > {NAME=FLT$SERVER} -  > > ,CLIENT  = - > > ,INCOMING ALIAS = TRUE - > > ,INCOMING PROXY = FALSE -i > > ,OUTGOING ALIAS = FALSE -b > > ,OUTGOING PROXY = TRUE - > > ,NODE SYNONYM = TRUE - > > ,USER NAME = "FLT$SERVER" -c- > > ,IMAGE NAME = "SYS$SYSTEM:FLT$SERVER.COM"N > D >    I'm still getting invalid user messages on opcom and failure toJ >    connect to the server.  This is with the same UAF file as my Phase IV; >    node is using, so I think the FLT$SERVER acount is OK.. >   6 Can you reference the account in the following manner?   dir 0"flt$server <password>"::  H If you can, please send me a copy of your opcom output that is generated when flight tries to connect.s  
 Mark Berrymano   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:10:59 +0000u< From: Andrew Swallow <andrew.swallow@eatspam.baesystems.com>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds 6 Message-ID: <3C3DF553.4B2777FE@eatspam.baesystems.com>   Tim Llewellyn wrote: >  > Andrew Swallow wrote:c > >W > > cjt wrote: > > >  > > > Andrew Swallow wrote:s
 > > [snip] > >  >; > > > > Is there a market for servers without keyboards ande > > > > screens? > > >tM > > > I hope that's a rhetorical question.  Of course there is such a market.oQ > > > Sun sells tons of such machines, and I would have thought Compaq does, too.  > > >n > > 9 > > It was a rhetorical question.  Keyboard less machines 4 > > are often forgotten, particularly when designing3 > > machines.  For instance to recover from a powery > > failure just type BOOT.c > 4 > whats wrong with enabling autoboot in the console?  6 How?  There is no keyboard.  Which implies no console. -- i7 _______________________________________________________n+ Andrew Swallow (7605) 2225   Cowes site, UK  andrew.swallow@baesystems.comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:47:30 +0000e< From: Andrew Swallow <andrew.swallow@eatspam.baesystems.com>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds 6 Message-ID: <3C3DFDE2.2837DEA8@eatspam.baesystems.com>   Andrew Swallow wrote:. >  > Tim Llewellyn wrote: > >i > > Andrew Swallow wrote:o > > >e > > > cjt wrote: > > > >  > > > > Andrew Swallow wrote:n > > > [snip] > > >  >= > > > > > Is there a market for servers without keyboards ande > > > > > screens? > > > >(O > > > > I hope that's a rhetorical question.  Of course there is such a market.oS > > > > Sun sells tons of such machines, and I would have thought Compaq does, too.t > > > >c > > >r; > > > It was a rhetorical question.  Keyboard less machinesa6 > > > are often forgotten, particularly when designing5 > > > machines.  For instance to recover from a powers > > > failure just type BOOT.b > > 6 > > whats wrong with enabling autoboot in the console? > 8 > How?  There is no keyboard.  Which implies no console. > --6 Or did you mean when the machine was initially set-up?  3 Providing nothing in the start-up sequence requires - operator input and the application also auto g+ restarts, you may a fully automated system.i --  7 _______________________________________________________.+ Andrew Swallow (7605) 2225   Cowes site, UKi andrew.swallow@baesystems.comu   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:42:00 GMTa4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsn0 Message-ID: <3C3E09DE.BF5F3F1F@blueyonder.co.uk>   Andrew Swallow wrote:t >  > Tim Llewellyn wrote:  p > >e6 > > whats wrong with enabling autoboot in the console? > 8 > How?  There is no keyboard.  Which implies no console.  : OK, you borrow a keyboard from somewhere or buy one to use= when configuring the system. When deploying, remove keyboard.t@ I don't see how you can configure a system without kbd. However,( you don't need a kbd after a powerfail.      regardsr      -- m Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  i  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of k! my employers or service provider.h   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:48:10 GMTo4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds 0 Message-ID: <3C3E0AF8.4C4A7665@blueyonder.co.uk>   Andrew Swallow wrote:s >  > Andrew Swallow wrote:n > >s > > Tim Llewellyn wrote: > > >a > > > Andrew Swallow wrote:s > > > >i > > > > cjt wrote:	 > > > > >e > > > > > Andrew Swallow wrote:O > > > > [snip]
 > > > >  >? > > > > > > Is there a market for servers without keyboards anda > > > > > > screens?	 > > > > > Q > > > > > I hope that's a rhetorical question.  Of course there is such a market.aU > > > > > Sun sells tons of such machines, and I would have thought Compaq does, too.f	 > > > > >t > > > > = > > > > It was a rhetorical question.  Keyboard less machines-8 > > > > are often forgotten, particularly when designing7 > > > > machines.  For instance to recover from a powerh > > > > failure just type BOOT.r > > >D8 > > > whats wrong with enabling autoboot in the console? > >s: > > How?  There is no keyboard.  Which implies no console. > > --8 > Or did you mean when the machine was initially set-up?   yup, n > 5 > Providing nothing in the start-up sequence requiress. > operator input and the application also auto- > restarts, you may a fully automated system.s  c6 if its a proper OS (vms or unix etc) you can login and6 fix application level probs over the network once the  OS has booted.  B You've met VMS systems that require operator input during booting? Thats smelly IMHO.  : You obviously need a kbd and console terminal of some sort@ available in case of hardware problems with the server. However,; if you have a rack of servers, you only really need one kbdr8 and console, or some sort of keyboard/monitor switch, or& a remote console management package...   regardso   -- p Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  a  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of *! my employers or service provider.t   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 22:21:54 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedss$ Message-ID: <a1l462$ut@web.nmti.com>  5 In article <3C35E4F4.8A7A5261@swissonline.delete.ch>,,3 John McLean  <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote:N. > So where goeth Compaq after merger misfire ?  F Compaq will be bought by Oracle, who will start shipping GS60 clusters( preloaded with Oracle as "thin servers".   -- a+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.eE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."oL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:11:16 -0500b- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedse, Message-ID: <3C3E1F8E.1D54100B@videotron.ca>   Tim Llewellyn wrote:< > You obviously need a kbd and console terminal of some sortB > available in case of hardware problems with the server. However,= > if you have a rack of servers, you only really need one kbdo: > and console, or some sort of keyboard/monitor switch, or( > a remote console management package...  I The traditional windows weenies solution is one console/keyboard for each L server that can be fitted on the console switches they can find at the localH computer store (probably 3 servers for each console). And then they have wiring nightmare.b  J The "professional" solution is a single serial cable from each server to aG decserver, and you access the consoles from your office with a suitablenN password. (and yeah, you do leave a couple of screens in the computer room for. opcom message, but those need not be on OPA0).   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:17:59 -0500s+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> 9 Subject: RE: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds.T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4016CE7F2@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   re: Console Mgmt pkgs ..  E Good one that is web enabled, has scan files for known error messagesiE (including SAN HSG80 errors) and also supports OpenVMS as a server ort client as well -  / http://www.tditx.com/products_consoleworks.htmls  B It is also the Compaq console std for the AlphaServer GS80/160/320 servers.   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanti Compaq Canada Corp.i Professional Servicesn Voice: 613-592-4660g Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca] Sent: January 10, 2002 6:11 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comd9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedso     Tim Llewellyn wrote:< > You obviously need a kbd and console terminal of some sortB > available in case of hardware problems with the server. However,= > if you have a rack of servers, you only really need one kbd>: > and console, or some sort of keyboard/monitor switch, or( > a remote console management package...  D The traditional windows weenies solution is one console/keyboard for eachF server that can be fitted on the console switches they can find at the local H computer store (probably 3 servers for each console). And then they have wiring nightmare.h  H The "professional" solution is a single serial cable from each server to a G decserver, and you access the consoles from your office with a suitableiE password. (and yeah, you do leave a couple of screens in the computer  room for. opcom message, but those need not be on OPA0).   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:47:58 GMTz4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds50 Message-ID: <3C3E24F5.9626DF48@blueyonder.co.uk>   JF Mezei wrote:m >  > Tim Llewellyn wrote:> > > You obviously need a kbd and console terminal of some sortD > > available in case of hardware problems with the server. However,? > > if you have a rack of servers, you only really need one kbd < > > and console, or some sort of keyboard/monitor switch, or* > > a remote console management package... > K > The traditional windows weenies solution is one console/keyboard for each-N > server that can be fitted on the console switches they can find at the localJ > computer store (probably 3 servers for each console). And then they have > wiring nightmare.t  I actually I saw quite a neat 3U rackmount console switch (monitor/PS2 kdb) 7 in a somewhat recent visit to a room full of Proliants.-  D Didn't work reliably with the DS10 I was installing though, ended up" setting up a dedicated console :-)   > L > The "professional" solution is a single serial cable from each server to aI > decserver, and you access the consoles from your office with a suitabletP > password. (and yeah, you do leave a couple of screens in the computer room for0 > opcom message, but those need not be on OPA0).  F thats what I meant by a remote console management package (should haveA said solution rather than package as obviously if you know how to_ roll your own you can).f   -- f Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of u! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:41:16 GMTm4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedse> Message-ID: <0pr%7.65314$Sj1.26886353@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  6 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4016CE7F2@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. .. re: Console Mgmt pkgs ..  E Good one that is web enabled, has scan files for known error messagesgE (including SAN HSG80 errors) and also supports OpenVMS as a server ors client as well -  / http://www.tditx.com/products_consoleworks.html   B It is also the Compaq console std for the AlphaServer GS80/160/320 servers.  K And a nice product indeed! Especially the latest release. Since it's out oftC band, it complements in-band solutions such as the pricey CA stuff.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:23:10 -0500s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsh, Message-ID: <3C3E5A84.149546F4@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:G > Good one that is web enabled, has scan files for known error messagestG > (including SAN HSG80 errors) and also supports OpenVMS as a server or- > client as well  N  Am I the only one to cringe at the though of a web enabled console ? The mereM though of having to depend on a web server to get to the critical part of the-" machine doesn't sound right to me.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:41:02 GMTH# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n  Subject: Re: HP, imaging and VMS> Message-ID: <y%m%7.163429$pa1.48737786@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C3CCEA9.E7A5B74D@videotron.ca...  J > Agreed. The companies that will be succesful in the cameras are the ones thatL > are already succesful in cameras (eg: Japanese). There is one good reason. You L > might replace the backplate with a CCD plate, but you still need the lens. AnduE > the lens is the critical part of a camera. Does HP have lens makingt
 facilitiesJ > ? If it must purchase its lenses from Nikon or some other outfit, can it6 > really compete against those same japanese outfits ? >rF > Unless, of course, you aim is to capture the "cheap family pictures" market,-D > in which point you are talking about low quality cameras best made	 overseas.a >i  J The recent family of HP branded cameras are co-developed (no pun intended)H with Pentax, makers of high quality cameras and lenses for years. PentaxK does the manufacturing. That said, I tried one of the HP cameras (mod. 618)mI last years and found that it was lacking. Bought a Toshiba digital camera  instead - lens by Canon.  K Interesting tidbit for you - Mitsubishi is the parent company of both Nikonb' and Asahi Optical (as in Ashai Pentax).3   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 06:44:33 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)3 Subject: Huge EV7 Alpha Galaxy Cluster being built! = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201100644.55f66723@posting.google.com>e  B try to do this all you windoze and unix cronies w/your junk os ...  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/10010206.htm   ) Compaq builds biggest Alpha cluster ever t   Ayr on a G-String % By Eva Glass, 10/01/2002 11:16:49 BST   6 A LASSIE FROM Compaq in Ayr gave me a bell on my cell.D Ayr Annie - as I'll call her - tells me that the factory up there inB bonnie Scotland has just built and tested the largest ever cluster using the Alpha microprocessor.a  C The machine is being built for NoSuchAgency, and she reckons it's ae real coppa whoppa.  E She slips me word that it could be a 1.2GHz EV7 VMS system maybe withsB 512 CPUs per VMS Galaxy instance and say 64 instances per cluster.  E Hey, she said the Big Q has even been flashing photos of these babiesYD round to its select customers who it trusts - obviously we ain't one of them!  D Well - 32 processors per GS system was the limit with EV6 but things are looking up now...D  D And in other news, Annie told me that there are some "restructuring"9 plans set to happen in Ayr - maybe as early as next week.6  @ Wouldn't it be better if Compaq talked to the INQ to prevent the@ relentless drip, drip, drip from all these lovely ladies wearing moleskin hats?   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:02:25 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) / Subject: Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monsterk3 Message-ID: <mGxnJdod9OuM@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ` In article <mr3r3ukcj0pcb3r63r1fqgu4etvn0c2et0@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:  H > I really doubt that you would have 512 processors per VMS instance forG > efficiency reasons even if some version of the OS would allow it. But7   Absolutely.,  E > who knows. Anyone know if there is an architectural limit in VMS onE@ > processors as opposed to a supported maximum? How about GalaxyH > instances. I can recall hearing mention of unsupported cluster configsB > running with over 100 nodes so 128 Galaxy instances might not be+ > impossible if the hardware supported it.    C Look through the cluster code in the source listings for a bit-mask"B representing the various CPUs in an instance/system.  See if it is@ limited to some natural memory size like 32 or 64.  Newer Galaxy@ code could be built to supports lots of processors in a box, butA I would think the number of CPUs playing SMP together would be ini older code.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:49:37 -0500<5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>u/ Subject: Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monstere2 Message-ID: <Nim%7.538$5Y4.14759@news.cpqcorp.net>  B Well.  I truly have not even heard a rumour about any such system.  L At present, the per-instance limit of VMS is 32 CPUs.  This is mostly due toI the use of a 32-bit mask in a number of places for representing availablet CPUs.>  F The Marvel systems were designed for up to 256 CPUs (notionally with aJ future EV8 of 1024 logical CPUs), but the physical design is not likely to% allow cable routing of more than 128.d  J So, if such a beast were built, VMS could run today as 128/32 instances ofL the operating system on such a beast.  Or as 128 seperate instances (I think5 that is possible, but it might be 64 instances of 2).   I So if it were VMS, you could cluster together 4 Marvel systems, each withgG 128 CPUs, each running 4 instances of 32 CPUs (or 8 * 16 which would berL better).  It would be one big honkin' machine.  Each of the 4 machines would: be capable of supporting 1TB of raid-5 memory.  Scary big.   _Freds   Alan Greig wrote in message ..._G >I strongly suspect the exact details given below are misleading... butwF >employees at Compaq Ayr have confirmed to me that there is some basisF >in the story below. *Something* has just been built at Ayr that's hadE >people gaping in astonishment! Given that the factory has apparentlykG >built and tested EV6 1024 or greater CPU config (Beowolf?) systems fortE >publicly announced customers it does seem likely that whatever it is E >they have really just built must be substantial indeed. Whether it'snC >really VMS it runs who knows but in the absence of any facts let'srG >just go along with that. Highly unlikely the NSA (if indeed that's who ? >it is for) will pop up and say it runs FreeBSD or something :)  >aG >I really doubt that you would have 512 processors per VMS instance for F >efficiency reasons even if some version of the OS would allow it. ButD >who knows. Anyone know if there is an architectural limit in VMS on? >processors as opposed to a supported maximum? How about GalaxyeG >instances. I can recall hearing mention of unsupported cluster configsuA >running with over 100 nodes so 128 Galaxy instances might not bep) >impossible if the hardware supported it.n >e( >http://www.theinquirer.net/10010206.htm >o7 >A LASSIE FROM Compaq in Ayr gave me a bell on my cell.aE >Ayr Annie - as I'll call her - tells me that the factory up there intC >bonnie Scotland has just built and tested the largest ever cluster   >using the Alpha microprocessor. >tD >The machine is being built for NoSuchAgency, and she reckons it's a >real coppa whoppa.a >0F >She slips me word that it could be a 1.2GHz EV7 VMS system maybe withC >512 CPUs per VMS Galaxy instance and say 64 instances per cluster.D >3F >Hey, she said the Big Q has even been flashing photos of these babiesE >round to its select customers who it trusts - obviously we ain't oneh	 >of them!  > E >Well - 32 processors per GS system was the limit with EV6 but thingsr >are looking up now... >eE >And in other news, Annie told me that there are some "restructuring" : >plans set to happen in Ayr - maybe as early as next week. >kA >Wouldn't it be better if Compaq talked to the INQ to prevent therA >relentless drip, drip, drip from all these lovely ladies wearinge >moleskin hats?   >n >a >e >--n >Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:49:16 -0500 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i/ Subject: Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monsterj, Message-ID: <3C3E1A67.EC934C58@videotron.ca>   Tim Shoppa wrote: H > Some of No Such Agency's applications are believed (based on what I'veI > seen in trade rags) to be "embarrasingly paralellizable", that is therea1 > is very little inter-CPU communications needed.   L It isn't enough to listen to 10,000 telephone conversations simultanesously,J you also need to be able to have a process that hears the word "Al Queda" L send a signal to some log-file containing all the information from that callL and possibly store the recording in some central place where humans can thenI listen to it to see if it has any relevance. Having 10,000 PCs do the job H would result in a management headache especially if they want to add new< keywords to look for in conversations (such as "Kill VMS").   B Galaxy probably makes that management process much more efficient.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:03:14 -0500e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r/ Subject: Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monsteru, Message-ID: <3C3E1DAD.35C5514D@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:K > So if it were VMS, you could cluster together 4 Marvel systems, each with I > 128 CPUs, each running 4 instances of 32 CPUs (or 8 * 16 which would beaN > better).  It would be one big honkin' machine.  Each of the 4 machines would< > be capable of supporting 1TB of raid-5 memory.  Scary big.  N Or it could just be one huge cabinet with just a microvax-II inside to impress
 prople :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:28:51 -0500k+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>n/ Subject: RE: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monsterhT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B6E@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  F >>> Galaxy probably makes that management process much more efficient. <<  H Actually, it is also the capability to dynamically have CPU's migrate toC the OS instance that requires additional CPU resources that is whatiH often attracts Customers to Galaxy config's. ie. during prime time a webE server instance has more cpu's to deal with some application specificnG load, where in the off hours, the spare CPU's migrate to an OS instanceo- that runs batch jobs or perhaps backups or ??o  H Course, if one has Oracle Rdb, the latest version (V7.1) supports GalaxyE and allows one to put large amounts of cached data into shared memory G space where each OS instance can access much more quickly than an IO too disk.h  
 More info at: 6 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/availability/galaxy.html   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant- Compaq Canada Corp.- Professional Servicesa Voice: 613-592-4660b Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----4 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca] Sent: January 10, 2002 5:49 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come/ Subject: Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monsteri     Tim Shoppa wrote:rH > Some of No Such Agency's applications are believed (based on what I'veC > seen in trade rags) to be "embarrasingly paralellizable", that iso therew1 > is very little inter-CPU communications needed.   ; It isn't enough to listen to 10,000 telephone conversationsa simultanesously,B you also need to be able to have a process that hears the word "Al	 Queda"=20tG send a signal to some log-file containing all the information from thatg callG and possibly store the recording in some central place where humans cans thenE listen to it to see if it has any relevance. Having 10,000 PCs do thei jobnH would result in a management headache especially if they want to add new> keywords to look for in conversations (such as "Kill VMS").=20  B Galaxy probably makes that management process much more efficient.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:59:18 GMTl2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: looping process2 Message-ID: <qVp%7.544$5Y4.14959@news.cpqcorp.net>   In article <A1611D15EB74D3119F9C0008C7E62D5015F2C26B@cplz33.mobile.belgacom.be>, "SCOTT Stephen (BMB)" <Stephen.SCOTT@PROXIMUS.NET> writes:   H   Please turn off MIME when posting to the newsgroup or when sending to E   INFO-VAX -- this for various reasons, not the least of which is to 3F   reduce the size of the postings and (particularly) to alleviate the #   usual security concerns.  Thanks!c  M :We have had on occasion a looping process on OpenVMS V7.2-1H1 system, whilstiE :running some nice new modules developed in-house mostly cobol and c.]  F   Please consider moving to V7.2-2 or to V7.3 or (as available) later.C   Also apply the available ECO kits for the OpenVMS release in use.tF   (Please do not infer that my recommendations to use current releasesE   and to apply the ECO kits are in any way connected to the reported hB   looping of the application.  No such implications are intended.)  L :My  question is, what's the best way to locate the part of the code causingJ :the problem, from monitoring the running process rather than having to go :back to debugging.  ..H :I have in the past used anal/sys or show proc/contin to get the programM :counter which seems to be repeated, and I guess you could trace this back toe2 :the image map from when the object was linked ...     That approach is correct.   J   Use SHOW PROCESS/CONTINUOUS to mine the program counter (PC) addresses, C   then go back to the compiler listings and the LINK/FULL maps and o"   determine what code is involved.  I   If you did not create and keep the listings and the LINK maps, then it 2G   will be easiest to go back to debugging -- I'd encourage integrating jH   some selectable tracing directly into the application.    (And setting9   up a way to maintain listings and the maps, of course.)i  H :But I'm open to suggestions - has anyone else traced this kind of thing :before ????  F   Yep.  The listings from the compilers and the map.  Use the LINK mapG   to find the modules that contributed to the range of address(es) seenoF   in the PC, then use the listings to find the code within the module.  I   The alternative is to start looking at the sequences of instructions in/I   the range of PCs involved, and try to find these in the application -- yJ   this alternative is quite ugly and relatively difficult, and requires a L   fair knowledge of the Alpha architecture, and of the LINKER and compilers.  I   A list of some of the more common programming bugs is over provided in  H   the OpenVMS Ask The Wizard area topic (1661).  Also see topics (6818) L   (819), and (1625) for related discussions of the LINKER and the LINK maps.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:39:48 +0100i1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>f Subject: OT: Net humor5 Message-ID: <3C3E0A23.C9245E34@swissonline.delete.ch>n  , My thanks to Paul Sture for telling me aboutF http://www.myths.com/~dpm/good-sigs.txt which contains a collection of .sigs and usenet humor.T  = There's a lot of very good stuff there but two I like are ...i    & From: "Art Taylor" <artt@nobeltec.com>! Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recoveryy Organization: Nobeltec Corp.  > [flavor of unix] is about as stable as a one-legged drunk with hypothermiaBD in a four-hundred mile wind, balancing on a banana peel on a greased cookieF sheet while someone throws him an elephant with bad breath and a worse temper.u  R ==================================================================================  7 From: cdrovers@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Rovers)l! Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recoveryl: Organization: University of Waterloo Computer Science Club  B         ---------------- hit any user to continue ----------------       cheers,l   John McLeant   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:33:09 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e> Subject: Re: OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 93 Message-ID: <QLBSeXF4xQ9a@eisner.encompasserve.org>4  g In article <919280EC3warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>, wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) writes:a > K > "Solaris on Intel is relatively a small part of Sun's overall business,"  N > Kusnetzky said. "It won't have a major impact on Sun's client base. There's ) > not an awful lot of them using Intel." d  H    Sigh.  Solaris on Intel is one of the reasons Java generates portableF    byte code.  The designers didn't want to have to recompile for both5    bigendian SPARC and little endian Intel platforms.u   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:43:29 GMTw  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>> Subject: Re: OT: Sun To Drop/Delay Intel Support For Solaris 9+ Message-ID: <3C3E0AC5.D16AE9B5@prodigy.net>p  % Low end Sparc workstations are cheap.a   Warren Spencer wrote:r > E > LESLIE@209-16-45-102.insync.net (Jerry Leslie) wrote in <dAY_7.5537o > $Oh1.46691@insync>:  > 4 > >http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8409777.html >  > A quote from cnet: > J > "Solaris on Intel is relatively a small part of Sun's overall business,"M > Kusnetzky said. "It won't have a major impact on Sun's client base. There'sa( > not an awful lot of them using Intel." > M > By delaying Solaris 9 for Intel, Kusnetzky said, Sun saves money on testingn > and production costs.i > -- > G > Another example of classical bean-counter thinking; no concept of howrI > Solaris on Intel in universities has helped fuel the Solaris-proficientg; > crowd in business now, thus influencing buying decisions.f > J > You can delay/cancel Solaris on IA-32 now for immediate cash gain... butK > where will you be 5 years from now when there's no fresh crop of Solaris- I > ites graduating into business?  Decisions like this get people promotedbI > because it looks good on paper in the short term.  And of course, those-G > people are no longer around (promotions) when the ramifications (pink ! > slips) are inevitably realized.l >  > ws >  > -- >  > Warren Spencer) > Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)o > The Associated Press > M > ** My employer does not necessarily agree with my statements - neither do In > **   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:40:41 GMTr' From: "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii@mail.com>S> Subject: Powercycle MDR to update internal mapping information( Message-ID: <3C3E3483.37F6295A@mail.com>   On page:  8 StorageWorks Modular Data Router - Questions and Answers7 http://www.compaq.com/products/storageworks/mdr/qa.html    has:  ) Q:  Are the option modules hot-pluggable?r9 A:  No, but cables, GBICs and PC Cards are hot pluggable.t  	 Then  on:a  H Multipath and Fibre Channel Chapters from Guidelines for OpenVMS Cluster Configurations@ http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/fibre/doc/6318pro_004.html   the section:  - 2.5.4 Configuring a Fibre Channel Tape Device * 2.5.4.2 Basic Configuration Steps: Details   states:     I Note that running the IO FIND_WWID command for the first time detects all M existing tape and medium changer devices on the system. If you add additionalhH Fibre Channel tape devices to the system at a later time, you must firstN powercycle the MDR to update internal mapping information, and then run the IOC FIND_WWID command again to append the new device information to the- SYS$DEVICES.DAT file.0  & Does this in practice cause a problem?   -- r C.W.Holeman II cwhii@mail.com http://also.as/cwhii   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:15:23 -0500c! From: "me" <wicklinedd@erols.com>e+ Subject: Re: Reel to Reel recorder questionw+ Message-ID: <a1lipt$2gn$1@bob.news.rcn.net>e  F Sorry that was so incoherent.  It hadn't occurred to me what shape theE magnetic media might be in.  The tape doesn't have anything about theyJ recording format except that it was a MVII Backup Saveset.  I would assumeL that from my limited internet research it was probably a TS05 drive.  I usedJ to work with 14 track 1 Inch drives but when we used them for playback youJ would manually set the tape speed so you could have variable data rates onJ the read sside.  Since the TSZ07 is SCSI, if the tape were recorded at 800 BPI could it be read?s   Dave    = Hoff Hoffman <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in messages, news:fjj%7.520$5Y4.14574@news.cpqcorp.net...I > In article <a1in3t$fq6$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "me" <wicklinedd@erols.com>b writes:s: > :I got a VS400-90 but together to decode a DDS Vax tape. >-4 >   DDS is better known (though incorrectly) as DAT. >0G >   There are a variety of different DDS (DAT) drives around, and mediaIH >   written by one drive may or may not be readable in another.  (If youG >   are not very careful to follow the media lifetime, the data may nothF >   be readable even in the drive that wrote it.  DDS media is usuallyF >   rated for around 2000 head passes, and a typical MOUNT/INIT/BACKUPH >   archiving sequence can perform quite a few tape passes over the tape >   headers.  But I digress.)u >eI > :Now another guy need to try to read some old Reel-to-Reel tapes from a  Vax.K > :How would I go about this I don't know anything about the format for 1/2o > :Tape. > J >   VAX (hardware) could be running any of a number of available operatingL >   systems that support VAX.  Assuming this is OpenVMS VAX, then nine-trackH >   magtape has three common densities (800 NRZI, 1600 PE, and 6250 GCR,K >   with the higher BPI recordings being "newer" and NZRI being ancient andrL >   relatively rare) and a plethora of data formats as possible, with BACKUP# >   being the most prefered format.r > J > :One quick search of COMPAQ shows a TSZ07 SCSI which should work but for > :very old tapes... > G >   TSZ07 is SCSI-2, and should work with most SCSI-2 configurations onm OpenVMSeI >   VAX and other operating systems, and the drive provides both the 1600y BPItG >   PE and the 6250 BPI GCR densities.  (TSV05 provides 1600 BPI only.)n >kA >   If the tapes are old enough, the media may well have degradedm sufficientlyK >   that the tape cannot be read (cleanly, or at all).  There various folksrJ >   aound that have neglected to perform the recommended tape retensioning andhG >   have not explicitly considered the media lifetime over the years of  storage,7 >   and the bits do eventually fall off the tape media.p > H >   But the best approach: find somebody with a real reel-to-reel drive. EvenH >   better, find somebody that specializes in data recovery from ancient media. >hL >   Since I probably won't be able to talk you out of trying to recover thisJ >   data yourself, I would urge you NOT to repeatedly try to read the tapeJ >   (and this includes repeatedly mounting and dismounting the tape, sinceL >   that can "maytag" the tape headers) if you get tape (parity, etc) errorsF >   -- save at least some of the remaining oxide for the data recovery service. > E >   I was recently passed a notice indicating that the last remaininge	 (reputed)cL >   manufacturer of the nine-track media will only be manufactured new mediaI >   for another week or so: http://www.emaglink.com/Articles/17Dec01.htm.  > ( >  ---------------------------- #include' <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------hL >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com, >  --------------------------- pure personal# opinion ---------------------------y1 >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineeringo hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:29:12 +0400l4 From: Valentin Likoum <valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.ru> Subject: Re[2]: DCL whish list3 Message-ID: <298320601.20020111102912@ncc.volga.ru>e  = On 10.01.2002 Alan E. Feldman <SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM> wrote:s  r > Valentin Likoum <valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.ru> wrote in message news:<1829801283.20020110105652@ncc.volga.ru>...@ >> On 09.01.2002 Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote: >>   >> > I just want this-% >> > $ DELETE/ENTRY=ALL/QUE=SYS$PRINT, >> > Why not ??? >> 0E >>   While we are on the topic, why not to show PID of the process ini@ >> SHOW QUEUE and SHOW ENTRY if job is executing. Something like >> n7 >>   Entry  Jobname         Username             Statusp7 >>   -----  -------         --------             ------dI >>     812  BCK             B_USER               Executing (PID:000046D1)tI >>                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ D >>   I'm a bit lazy to search through SHOW SYSTEM output to find outI >> in which process certain entry is executing every time I need to checki >> how this entry is doing.t >>   Thank you.l  F > This command procedure will get you the pid and other info about the > job. [procedure snipped]i  B   Thank you, Alan. It's very useful. But when user comes to me and> asks "What the hell is my job doing?", it's still a three-stepE procedure: 1. SHOW QUEUE to figure out which entry his job is; 2. SHO F SYS or your procedure to figure out process PID; 3. SHO PROC or SDA toE dig into. My point was to make this procedure two-step (skipping step<@ 2). IMHO it doesn't cost much (but may be backward compatibility issues?)   Thank you.   -- 3   Valentin Likoumo   valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.ru   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 15:06:41 -0500w& From: Craig Danyi <cdanyi@weather.com> Subject: Re: RMS index fileh+ Message-ID: <3C3DF451.A75E4FD5@weather.com>o  4 Here is everything you need to know about RMS files:  < http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/4523/4523PRO.HTML     Matt Shoultz wrote:t > N > I would like to be able to read and write to a rms index file, but I have noM > idea what the internal index structure is.  Doe anyone have any clues about@E > reverse engineering this process given a rms index file without any-$ > documentation about its structure. > 	 > Thanks,1 >  > Matt . . . >  > --: > Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG   -- . _____________________  Craig Danyi * The Weather Channel http://www.weather.com Information Services Atlanta, GA 30339C 770-226-2502   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 12:04:35 -0800+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>u  Subject: Re: SCSI to IDE bridges( Message-ID: <a1ks4j0dmc@drn.newsguy.com>  3 In article <3C3DC45A.45B4B8D2@gce.com>, gce says...c >o% >I use an Alcita IDEplex successfully   E Who sells these, other than with a tower full of CD-ROM drives?  It'soE an interesting device, most of the bridges I've seen only support oneh or two devices, not eight.  1 > ... works for me in VMS 7.2-1 and 7.3 on alpha.iI >Either use the ZRdriver hack I put on sigtapes to access (not tested for, >formattingnN >the things, but seems to be working and is tested reading non-512 devices and >forO >reading disks connected this way) or I use a hacked up dkdriver in a different-N >name. The hacks were needed because Alcita had almost no mode pages, and does >not >do disconnect right.S  @ Nothing against your ZRDRIVER, but I'd prefer to find a solution& that works on a more "vanilla" system.  M >IDEplex is nice since it lets you hang an IDE disk on every SCSI LUN, vastlybM >expanding your bus. Buy one board and amortize cost over 8 disks. The one-upiH >converters don't do this, but might do better at dealing with mode pageL >set/sense requests. Be prepared to tell dkdriver to NOT allow disconnect onN >unknown disks though. That was the final magic I needed. It can be set with a >bit2 >in the dkdriver tables; see my posting on this...  7 Thanks; I remember that hint now that you mentioned it.    Tim.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 04:12:07 GMTi2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>  Subject: Re: SCSI to IDE bridgesC Message-ID: <rCt%7.155510$lV4.26793085@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com>n  , Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com> wrote:5 > In article <3C3DC45A.45B4B8D2@gce.com>, gce says...1 >>& >>I use an Alcita IDEplex successfully  G > Who sells these, other than with a tower full of CD-ROM drives?  It's9G > an interesting device, most of the bridges I've seen only support one2 > or two devices, not eight.  L Is 'Alcita' still around?  I just did a search and found their URL, but it's no longer there.  K Based on the pricetag Glenn quoted when he brought this up over a year ago, K I think I find the single drive bridges more attractive since I'd only wantuJ to add a disk or two this way.  So if you get around to trying any of them# I'd love to hear about the results!p   		Zane   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:06:52 -08005 From: pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk (pat saunders)7, Subject: show system reports wrong NODE NAME< Message-ID: <bc0e3bd8.0201101306.1599270@posting.google.com>   hi,PE   When I log onto a vax box, it reports the correct NODE-NAME as wellnC as when I run net$configure AND show exec status etc but when I run C the command SHOW SYSTEM it reports the wrong NODE-NAME, We recentlyM> restored from another vax box so are wondering how to fix this problem, thanks,o pat    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 18:38:10 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)0 Subject: Re: show system reports wrong NODE NAME= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0201101838.7d4afe51@posting.google.com>   y pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk (pat saunders) wrote in message news:<bc0e3bd8.0201101306.1599270@posting.google.com>...  > hi, G >   When I log onto a vax box, it reports the correct NODE-NAME as welliE > as when I run net$configure AND show exec status etc but when I run E > the command SHOW SYSTEM it reports the wrong NODE-NAME, We recentlyt@ > restored from another vax box so are wondering how to fix this
 > problem,	 > thanks,c > patr  B Check the system parameter SCSNODE. I believe that that is what isC used by SHOW SYSTEM. It is probably different from your DECnet nodet name.h  : Also, make sure SCSSYSTEMID = DECnet Area * 1024 + node-id  E Correct these quantities in SYS$SYSTEM:MODPARAMS.DAT and run AUTOGEN.f  D Also see the VMS FAQ (you can find it at www.openvms.compaq.com) and& check the topic about renaming a node.  D Also, you may want to check your startup files for hard-coded valuesC of the logical names SYS$WELCOME and SYS$ANNOUNCE, since you say ityE reports the node name when you log in, but you were not very specificy$ about how the node name is reported.   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmanr afeldman!~~/\~~!gfigroup.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:24:51 -0500v- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a0 Subject: Re: show system reports wrong NODE NAME, Message-ID: <3C3E850C.76C673D5@videotron.ca>   pat saunders wrote:.G >   When I log onto a vax box, it reports the correct NODE-NAME as well-E > as when I run net$configure AND show exec status etc but when I runmE > the command SHOW SYSTEM it reports the wrong NODE-NAME, We recently-@ > restored from another vax box so are wondering how to fix this  K SHOW SYS reports the sysgen clustering parameter SCSNODE whereas the others L report the decnet node name from the decnet configuration. Both should match but not in all cases.t  F MC SYSGEN SHOW SCSNODE  will tell you what you clustering nodename is.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 15:02:31 -0500x5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>rD Subject: Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products2 Message-ID: <Wum%7.539$5Y4.14691@news.cpqcorp.net>  E Chuck McCrobie wrote in message <3C3CDD61.8550CD2D@cablespeed.com>...i >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:a >> >>K >> I'd prefer not to see everyone as enemies.  I also think that your pointa isJ >> even stronger if you make the enemy of your enemy UNIX vs Windows.  VMSG >> *can* put itself in a position of being source compatable with UNIX.= >> >=E >HA HA HA HA HA HA HA - will someone please step up to do "autoconf"?rH >That'll be the day!  "Source compatible" - maybe, but just try to build= >most Unix software and one runs into "autoconf".  Good luck!- >-    E Well, we have a project in place that when complete, should make thataD something no worse than getting it to work on any other UNIX system.
 Seriously.  G >Whose going to make VMS source compatible with UNIX?  Not Compaq - VMSID >engineering is already busy porting to the WIZ-BANGEST CPU du jour. >e    K You don't get it.  VMS engineering isn't stopped doing nothing but Itanium.pL This *is* a project that is just starting - and starting *since* the Itanium announcements.  E >Can I compile POSTGRESQL - a free database package for Unix - on VMSSH >without hacking together a boat-load of include files?  Don't think so! >S   Eventually YES.t  = >Will VMS ever be source compatible with Unix device drivers?T  K Got me there.  NO.  This is not likely.  Of course, I also say this in somel respects with a sigh of relief.   C >File systems?  I'll take you statement seriously when I can take a I >Linux/Solaris file system and compile it with minimal change and it runsS >on OpenVMS. >s    J Probably not.  But what I really want to know is why you care?  As long asB it has UNIX semantics, do you care if under the covers it's ODS-5.  E You are also taking us down a rathole that probably doesn't matter to  99.99999% of users.o  F >Ya, I know that file systems on Solaris are not the same as FreeBSD /I >Linux / HP-UX, etc., but its a da*n slight easier to get it working than ? >trying to take such a file system and make it work on OpenVMS.a >      Well.  Who knows.  We'll see.l  G >Although, it looks like PCI hardware driver interface (at least to theo. >PCI and DMA widgets) aren't that different...  H Even UNIX isn't consistant in their driver environments.  I have writtenL what I consider portable drivers on VMS.  The trick is to encapsulate thingsL such that you seperate out the OS-specifics and housekeeping from the actionI routines.  Using this, I routinely move graphics device drivers from UNIXuF onto VMS by "stealing" the action routines, without worrying about the UNIXisms, *or* the VMSisms.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 15:33:32 -0500 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>eD Subject: Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products( Message-ID: <3C3DFA91.5F15011F@ohio.edu>  F Bob's original didn't show up on my news server yet, but Apple already MADE the? "toaster from the 50's" Macintosh --- the G4 "cube" with the CDm
 slot-loading n on the top.   	 						RDP-     Bob Koehler wrote: > ^ > In article <3C3B7BEB.68A752B3@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > > Bob Koehler wrote:I > >>    OK, so the first iMac looked like an ADM-3 from the 70's, and the:I > >>    new one looks like a desk lamp from the 60's.  If Apple continuesmM > >>    the retro thing, will the third iMac someday look like a toaster froms > >>    the 50's?: > > P > > How about a keypunch machine ? One could already put the sound of a keypunch= > > for each key you press on the keyboard to simulate it :-)f > F >    Well, I was thinking IBM 360/75, but they don't seem to be makingG >    iMacs bigger, just older looking.  A keypunch would be too big for.J >    the next step, and the last step seems to be away from making it look- >    like it's part of the computer industry.    -- xB ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:46:46 -0500c. From: Chuck McCrobie <mccrobie@cablespeed.com>D Subject: Re: Steve Jobs not affraid to sell his "different" products. Message-ID: <3C3E6026.FDFACBA8@cablespeed.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > G > Chuck McCrobie wrote in message <3C3CDD61.8550CD2D@cablespeed.com>.... > >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:t > >> > >>M > >> I'd prefer not to see everyone as enemies.  I also think that your pointT > isL > >> even stronger if you make the enemy of your enemy UNIX vs Windows.  VMSI > >> *can* put itself in a position of being source compatable with UNIX.  > >> > >yG > >HA HA HA HA HA HA HA - will someone please step up to do "autoconf"?sJ > >That'll be the day!  "Source compatible" - maybe, but just try to build? > >most Unix software and one runs into "autoconf".  Good luck!I > >t > G > Well, we have a project in place that when complete, should make thatnF > something no worse than getting it to work on any other UNIX system. > Seriously. >    I look forward to it!n  I > >Whose going to make VMS source compatible with UNIX?  Not Compaq - VMSaF > >engineering is already busy porting to the WIZ-BANGEST CPU du jour. > >  > M > You don't get it.  VMS engineering isn't stopped doing nothing but Itanium.iN > This *is* a project that is just starting - and starting *since* the Itanium > announcements. > G > >Can I compile POSTGRESQL - a free database package for Unix - on VMS J > >without hacking together a boat-load of include files?  Don't think so! > >  >  > Eventually YES., >   E Well, I stand to be impressed.  Last time I visited getting some UnixfG autoconf program working on VMS, I gave up.  If indeed this can be donea- reasonably, my hat is off to VMS engineering!-  ? > >Will VMS ever be source compatible with Unix device drivers?  > M > Got me there.  NO.  This is not likely.  Of course, I also say this in somen! > respects with a sigh of relief.a > E > >File systems?  I'll take you statement seriously when I can take aeK > >Linux/Solaris file system and compile it with minimal change and it runsC > >on OpenVMS. > >e > L > Probably not.  But what I really want to know is why you care?  As long asD > it has UNIX semantics, do you care if under the covers it's ODS-5. > G > You are also taking us down a rathole that probably doesn't matter tow > 99.99999% of users.r >   ? UDF, JFS, ext2fs, etc.  Sticking to ODS-2/ODS-5 may be good foroC clustering, but let's say I want a better (faster) file system thatyH doesn't necessarily have to be clustered.  Currently, its more difficultF under VMS because I have to do a driver AND an ACP.  On Unix, I do the@ file system driver and mount code.  Oh, and getting VMS MOUNT toG recognize something other than ODS-2/5 or ISO-9660 is like jumping on ak pin.  G Perhaps a set of system executive logicals which point to shared imagesnE that MOUNT can load and call into to recognize on-disk-structures andsH start the appropriate ACP.  Then third party file system writers can useH the existing VMOUNT.EXE (SYS$MOUNT and DCL MOUNT) without having to deal( with tricking mount into thinking ODS-1.  H > >Ya, I know that file systems on Solaris are not the same as FreeBSD /K > >Linux / HP-UX, etc., but its a da*n slight easier to get it working thanwA > >trying to take such a file system and make it work on OpenVMS.  > >d >  > Well.  Who knows.  We'll see.g > I > >Although, it looks like PCI hardware driver interface (at least to thet0 > >PCI and DMA widgets) aren't that different... > J > Even UNIX isn't consistant in their driver environments.  I have writtenN > what I consider portable drivers on VMS.  The trick is to encapsulate thingsN > such that you seperate out the OS-specifics and housekeeping from the actionK > routines.  Using this, I routinely move graphics device drivers from UNIX-H > onto VMS by "stealing" the action routines, without worrying about the > UNIXisms, *or* the VMSisms.S  F Interesting.  I was thinking of the FreeBSD / Tru64 / OpenVMS routinesD to access the PCI bus and to do DMA mapping.  All three have similar2 interfaces that could be abstracted into a driver.   -- - ---   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 23:41:12 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The d.% Message-ID: <a1l8qo$6rl@web.nmti.com>S  > In article <bruce-86F3B4.10533510012002@news.paradise.net.nz>,% Bruce Hoult  <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:<F > All the Mac browsers I've used do "open in new window" if you click B > while holding the "command" key.  Much faster than using a menu.  0 That's a middle-mouse click in Netscape on UNIX.  J > Also, the current version of IE lets you do command-shift-click to open ) > in a new window behind the current one.s  ) What does hyper-meta-cokebottle-click do?    --  +  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.-E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 23:42:30 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The d % Message-ID: <a1l8t6$6v8@web.nmti.com>e  > In article <bruce-E3B94F.18390810012002@news.paradise.net.nz>,% Bruce Hoult  <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:'H > Go on, admit it ... you're in denial and secretly lusting after a new  > iMac.  I know.  6 I'm not in denial at all. I want a TiBook running OSX.  - That doesn't mean I haven't got my eyes open.d   -- f+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva. E   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:01:18 +1300-# From: Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org>0Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The d3> Message-ID: <bruce-1807DA.14011811012002@news.paradise.net.nz>  G In article <a1l8qo$6rl@web.nmti.com>, peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) 3 wrote:  L > > Also, the current version of IE lets you do command-shift-click to open + > > in a new window behind the current one.h > + > What does hyper-meta-cokebottle-click do?n   Very funny.    Funny but inconsistent.p  H Why is it that two (or three?) mouse buttons is the *right* number, but F a somewhat larger number of possible modifier key combinations is too  many?  Where is the optimum?  C For raw beginners, one button is almost certainly the right number.e  C Experts can learn any number of obscure combinations they like, as -C appropriate to their level or expertise.  Surely 2 or 3 -- or even :4 combinations of them -- is not enough for an expert?   -- Bruce   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 16:13:28 -0500c: From: shannon@news.widomaker.com (Charles Shannon Hendrix)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dv. Message-ID: <o50l1a.6be.ln@escape.shannon.net>  > In article <bruce-86F3B4.10533510012002@news.paradise.net.nz>,% Bruce Hoult  <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:    > But that's *so* clunky.R   It's _so_ Windows... :)e  F > All the Mac browsers I've used do "open in new window" if you click B > while holding the "command" key.  Much faster than using a menu.  C Well, I middle-click on my UNIX workstation's mouse, while changingn. channels on cable with my left hand, so there!  J > Also, the current version of IE lets you do command-shift-click to open I > in a new window behind the current one.  So you can quickly click on a iI > bunch of links and have a new window for each one waiting for you when y > you close the front window.y  F You see, it's really true: all UI's will become Emacs with the passage
 of time...       -- t  H UNIX/Perl/C/Pizza__________________________________shannon@widomaker.com   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 23:35:42 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The demie% Message-ID: <a1l8ge$6ea@web.nmti.com>t  % In article <1010394814snz@dsl.co.uk>,-- Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote:mH > Errm, what's so /difficult/ about holding the button down, rather than > looking for a second button?  J 1. Time sensitive user interface elements (click-and-hold or double-click)H    significantly increase the amount of coordination required to use the
    interface.c  J 2. Look for? I have four fingers. resting two of them on opposite sides ofM    the mouse makes the operation automatic. Certainly it requires less efforto;    than locating the hundred or so buttons on the keyboard.    -- r+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.LE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything." L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 07:20:03 +0100y, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>W Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The dema7 Message-ID: <20020111072003.728d6ab2.steveo@eircom.net>s  " On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:01:18 +1300$ Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:    L BH> Why is it that two (or three?) mouse buttons is the *right* number, but J BH> a somewhat larger number of possible modifier key combinations is too   BH> many?  Where is the optimum?  @ 	Simple, I can *see* the mouse buttons and *know* that they haveF something to do with pointer related actions. Three buttons is optimalE because that's how many fingers I have available for pressing buttonsr2 while the thumb and little finger guide the mouse.  : 	I sometimes wonder about the feasibility of a combination0 microwriter and mouse though (drag an x to ...).   -- eH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 23:39:19 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The dem T % Message-ID: <a1l8n7$6nc@web.nmti.com>f  4 In article <3C3A48C8.55A959E3@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>,: Christian Bau  <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:E > Contextual menus are usually activated by pressing the Control key.e  C This is so much more straightforward than pressing the menu button.i  J > There is one situation where "contextual menu by waiting" is beneficial:G > Use a web browser. Click on a link. Realise just before releasing then? > mouse button that you want to open that link in a new window.r  H ... move the mouse half an inch, off the link. Release the select button8 and click on the link again with the right mouse button.  9 > happens, something that is impossible using a PC mouse     Um, I just *did* it.   -- .+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.tE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything.">L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 23:31:43 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demish% Message-ID: <a1l88v$67e@web.nmti.com>e  , In article <3C361114.7BE0A0C9@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:t > Peter da Silva wrote:uM > > The switch from a one-button mouse to a two-button mouse, and the abilitynK > > to use context-sensitive menus (as the original Xerox design used) is a: > > huge improvement.e  N > Funny, the most powerful graphical applications were written for and on MACs9 > with single button mouses and didn't have any problems.4  J It's amazing how well people can overcome disabilities, to the point whereI they don't even consciously notice them. I can't read the text I'm typingoI right now without glasses, for example, but I certainly don't consider myg poor vision to be "no problem".e   > And I surmise that theN > vast majority of Windows users doN't make use of the right click unless told, > to do so by some technical support person.  N The vast majority of Windows users don't use the excellent keyboard navigationI tools in Windows either, and yet I am forever frustrated by their lack in 1 other operating systems... including UNIX with X.a  H I mean, look. I have a PDA. I depend heavily on this device. And yet forJ thousands of years civilization marched on without it. Does this mean it's' not useful because it wasn't available?    -- e+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.SE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."dL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 05:14:03 GMTo' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>eY Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demisb( Message-ID: <3C3E6549.2AA653D@yahoo.com>   Peter da Silva wrote:. > ' > In article <1010394814snz@dsl.co.uk>,t/ > Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote: J > > Errm, what's so /difficult/ about holding the button down, rather than  > > looking for a second button? > L > 1. Time sensitive user interface elements (click-and-hold or double-click)J >    significantly increase the amount of coordination required to use the >    interface.e > L > 2. Look for? I have four fingers. resting two of them on opposite sides ofO >    the mouse makes the operation automatic. Certainly it requires less efforts= >    than locating the hundred or so buttons on the keyboard.   ? Oh?  Did you never learn to touch-type?  Any time I have to usefB the rodent it is a major distraction - suddenly I have to find theA creature, place it on something relatively flat, now look back toa= the screen while wiggling it in order find the silly pointer,n> overcome the 'flat-points' to get the cursor somewhere useful,@ push one or more buttons, and then maybe I can put my hands back@ on the keyboard where they belong.  When I do I am fairly likely5 to get one hand one column off.  A pox on 'em, I say.i  B Rant #2 - stupid windows keys, taking up space where the space bar: should be, and causing various unwanted display to pop up.   -- X@ Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems."=    (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified)l0    mailto:uce@ftc.gov  (for spambots to harvest)   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 23:14:21 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The  demise o % Message-ID: <a1l78d$4sd@web.nmti.com>   ' In article <3C395090.584D7EB9@ev1.net>,.+ Charles Richmond  <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:w9 > "...and they played the game of catch as catch can tilla6 >  the gunpowder ran out of the heals of their boots."  G So she went into the garden to cut a cabbage-leaf to make an apple-pie; G and at the same time a great she-bear, coming down the street, pops its H head into the shop.  What! no soap? So he died, and she very imprudentlyB married the Barber: and there were present the Picninnies, and theI Joblillies, and the Garyulies, and the great Panjandrum himself, with thehD little round button at top; and they all fell to playing the game ofJ catch-as-catch-can, till the gunpowder ran out at the heels of their boots   		-- Samuel Footeg   -- k+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.yE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."=L                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:20:08 -0500 ( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The  demise of cbB Message-ID: <20020110211854.N58700-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>    On 4 Jan 2002, Eric Smith wrote:  9 > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: ( > > OpenBoot is Sun's gift to the world. >.J > Does that mean that the specs and code are available for free somewhere?7 > Or do I have to spend big bucks on the IEEE standard?h >y  C Actually, it looks like you have to pay big bucks for it even afteryD paying more for membership than you pay for VMS!!!  No wonder no one uses standards.w   bill   -- >J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 23:09:38 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of coi% Message-ID: <a1l6vi$4hk@web.nmti.com>N  4 In article <3C35D764.81A68997@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>,. Toon Moene  <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> wrote:D > My motivation is that a PowerPC based system is a relatively cheapI > big-endian machine.  This helps me tracking lots of endianness problemsc# > that appear while developing g77.   2 Now *that* makes a whole heaping serving of sense.   Fair enough.  = > The reason I use Debian GNU/Linux is because being a SystemnJ > Administrator is not a favourite hobby of mine - hence the pressing need0 > to keep all OS's the same around the house ...  I It sounds like you'd have ended up doing less SA work by just running OSXb
 on it. :->   -- o+  `-_-'   In hoc signo hack, Peter da Silva.rE   'U`    "A well-rounded geek should be able to geek about anything."sL                                                        -- nicolai@esperi.org          Disclaimer: WWFD?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:26:05 -0500s1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> < Subject: Re: TCP/IP 5.1 and DHCP and Internet/Cable provider2 Message-ID: <3C3E14FD.7D88C5E8@firstdbasource.com>   JF Mezei wrote:t >  > Didier Morandi wrote:  > >sT > > When I enable DHCP (TCP/IP V5-1 OpenVMS 7.3) it times out after 30 sec. The sameK > > RJ45 cable plugged to my PC or my iBook gives me my DHCP configuration./ > > 6 > > Why? circuit is WE0 (ESA0), system is ... PWS600au > M > Be careful. Youd cable modem may be the culprit. If you are provisioned foryL > only 1 IP address, the cable modem will respond to DHCP requests that comeK > only from the first ethernet address they see on your lan and will ignore ; > others (so your ISP's DHCP server doesn't even see them).e  A Ethernet Address = NIC MAC address.  Cable keeps track of the MACiF address for authentication purposes because they are bridge as opposed to using PPPo{E/A}.  n    K > I just got a router, and it is so much nicer, my lan all has local static O > adresses, and the router does the dhcp negotiation with the ISP so none of myn& > machines need be bothered with DHCP.  F I did the same.  I have 6 systems (2 Linux, 2 PC, 2 Alphas) All of theE PC's use the DHCP server from the Linksys and the two VMS systems are G static 192.168(non-routable) addresses.  I even use a Dynamic DNS to be F able to use my domain name for email and telnet access and even a veryF small web server running... what else... OpenVMS and Apache. But don't tell my ISP :) --     Regards,   Michael Austin7 First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.comI President/Sr. DBA Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)n 704-236-4377 (Mobile)h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:39:48 +0100 , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>< Subject: Re: TCP/IP 5.1 and DHCP and Internet/Cable provider& Message-ID: <3C3E1834.78991469@gmx.ch>   JF Mezei wrote:t > M > Be careful. Youd cable modem may be the culprit. If you are provisioned forn > only 1 IP address, ../..   was not the case. = System up and running (and MOZILLA 9.7 already downloaded :-)o   Thanks,    D.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:58:00 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.514360.killspam.00c9 (Wayne Sewell):C Subject: re: the poly instruction (was Re: Buffer Overflows - againh. Message-ID: <P3pNUcYkvMla@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  c In article <LlkcN9ma2h+a@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: p > In article <clmGYEWEmX9y@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.514360.killspam.00c9 (Wayne Sewell) writes: >>  Q >> POLY rings a bell.  Seems like I was farting around with CRC generation at thehN >> time.  It had to be something rarely used, or it would have been discoveredP >> during field test.  I would think that a microcode problem with MOVL would be >> found pretty quick.  :-)  > H >    You weren't using CRC for CRC?  We can be fairly sure it wasn't CRCD >    since 1.x used that in password hashing.  Field test would have= >    caught that.  ("My system crashes every time I log in.")- >       H It's hard for an old geezer to remember that far back.  I don't rememberO exactly why I issued the POLY instruction, just that I had to stop doing it (oraM at least I had to make sure the operands were already faulted into memory).  3K Maybe I was just reading the macro manual and it looked like an interestingo
 instruction. a   :-)    -- 'O ===============================================================================nM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxe: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-) O =============================================================================== N Sparky (from Bring It On): "In cheerleading, we throw people in the air.  Fat  	people don't go as high."   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:45:24 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> E Subject: U.S. opens criminal probe of Enron - Ken Lay on Compaq Board>> Message-ID: <E3n%7.163478$pa1.48740228@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>  , http://www.msnbc.com/news/684964.asp?pne=msn    D Seems to me that Mr. Lay will be more than distracted to fulfill his& fiduciary duty to Compaq shareholders.  L Wonder if Ben & Mikey will demand Ken's resignation from Compaq's Board this week??  	 Any bets?(   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:06:07 -0500b- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> I Subject: Re: U.S. opens criminal probe of Enron - Ken Lay on Compaq Boarde, Message-ID: <3C3E1E5A.F7323DE7@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote:rN > Wonder if Ben & Mikey will demand Ken's resignation from Compaq's Board this > week??  L Are you kidding ? They probbaly will want to promote him and make use of all) his expertise in destroying corporations.,   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 06:24:47 -0800. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)$ Subject: Re: Using "-" in a Filename= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0201100624.1fec8a82@posting.google.com>n  h "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote in message news:<sC%_7.90291$Z2.1290119@nnrp1.uunet.ca>...E > As much as I tried to avoid reading the "Historical Reason" thread,l1 > something in one of the messages caught my eye." > I > I decided to try creating a file that started with the "-" character. In > noticed that under;i >         VAX/VMS 7.1o >         VAX/VMS 7.3n >         AXP/VMS 7.1-2h > M > the procedure below will only create one -X.TXT file. But under AXP/VMS 7.3hN > this procedure will create two -X.TXT files. I find the output from the lastI > DIR command to be particularly interesting. It looks to me like the CLD L > correctly accepts - as the first character in a filename, but RMS fails to > handle it correctly. > L > As a person who takes being called a VMS Bigot as a compliment, I was veryN > annoyed when I saw a posting that claimed that there were inconsistencies inN > the way VMS handled filenames, but I guess I have to eat crow and admit that3 > the poster was correct in this case.  :( :( :( :(n   [procedure snipped]   B In the User's Manual it says not to use the hyphen as a leading or trailing character:m   " # 4.1.2 Rules for File Specificationsm9 Use the following rules to specify the elements of a filee specification:  D Give the file a name that is meaningful to you. The file name can be@ up to 39 characters chosen from the letters A to Z (uppercase orA lowercase), the numbers 0 to 9, underscores (_), hyphens (-), and? dollar signs ($).s  D Do not use a hyphen as the first or last character in the file name.C While it is possible under some conditions to successfully create atE file with the hyphen as the first character in the file name, specialn) handling is required to access this file.r "d  = So if you follow the instructions above, there is no problem.    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman  afeldman~~/\~~gfigroup.com   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:45:24 +0000 (UTC)21 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@notsohotmail.com>eQ Subject: Re: UWSSs and NOSHRIMG Calling out to other shareables (Not in cookbook) 1 Message-ID: <a1lg3j$hq7$1@knossos.btinternet.com>a   Hi Hoff,  I Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate it. For a while there I thoughtgD I'd used up my quota. (BTW Maybe it's just me but I can't see _most_C of your notes via my ISP and Outlook. No big deal but I always havee to double check in Google.)H   Hoff wrote:i  / >  Exactly why are you digging into this stuff?tB >  What problem -- other than the section PROTECT stuff -- are you >  seeking to resolve?  E My primary and overriding interest stems from TIER3 the client/server H middleware package that I have developed. It uses UWSSs and EXEC mode toE protect its mailboxes, i/o channels and memory from user mode access. ? (Please excuse the plug but TIER3 handles the network i/o, user E authorization, multi-threading and TP Load Balancing (min/max/timeout.L servers) so that your developers can concentrate on the application specificH issues.) TIER3 execution servers load the user, or application, code via lib$fis.  F Now I personally find inner mode code challenging at the best of timesF and in my TIER3 travels, have become increasingly frustrated at havingL to re-invent the wheel because a perfectly good RTL routine is not availableL to me :-( So imagine my surprise when all of a sudden I realize that I'm theD only one that's wearing a hair shirt, rolling around in the snow and whipping themselves with birch.t  G My secondary concern was this guy in the Rdb list server. He like every G other sane human being didn't really want to be bothered with UWSSs andsL quite rightly wanted to go the path of installing his lovely executable withF privs. To cut a long story short Rdb crashes the party with a bollocksB RTNUSENOTALL error that has no place outside Stalinist Russia. (MyL executable calls Rdb which in turn calls my external function in a shareableL that Rdb loads via lib$fis) This guy (whom I'll call Philip - coz that's hisK name) wanted to return the device and directory for a given user so that heiK could place an output file there. (The username being held in a table in aneI Rdb database) Rdb checks that the image privs are greater than the user's H UAF privs (even though that's the whole point of the excersise) and says bugger off!   D Anyway (you did ask) even when Rdb engineering smells the coffee andE removes this restriction Philip won't be able to take advantage of it E because he can't upgrade. So I knock up a UWSS for him that reads thee@ UAF and and returns the default device and directory for a givenI username. Please jump in with _all_ security concerns! I have answers fortI them all but this mail is already too long so I'm gonna stop pre-empting.i  K Now I "can't" call $getuai because that lives in secureshrp.exe so I do the I right(ish) thing and access sysuaf directly via RMS. I now you've alreadysF spotted the obvious downside in that when the format/record layout forL SYSUAF changes then I'm stuffed and am forced to link new versions of my RTLK in with VMS versions. Having said that $uaf070def implies it's only a majori& version issue but it's still not nice.  D :Is it safe to call other shareables from inner mode whether they be> :protected or not? (as long as they're installed (protected?))   >  No.  I So how do you think I felt when I ran an analyze/image over rdb$cosip.exemH only to see it pop-up with decc$shr, secureshr and secureshrp.exe? I canL assure you that I'm not really a gambling man but I'm willing to put my leftJ gonad on the chances of rdb$cosip calling $getuai from EXEC mode - call meD crazy. (And decc$shr calls librtl, cma$tis_shr, libots and dpml$shr)  K But let's not single out Rdb. (Although 3 out of the 4 protected shareablestF that I looked at displayed similar attributes) What about ACMS callingH dti$share? And when it comes to pca$collector it's an absolute shareableK image frenzy! It seems that every other VMS layered product is revelling in K this RTL permissive society unfettered by the prophylactic shackles that is0I /PROTECT. While I sit on the sidelines wondering if they're really happy.:  L I'm not trying to be clever and I wasn't ambushing you by not divulging thisJ earlier but I seriously expected you to say something like "As long as youK do X, Y and Z your RTL will be safe but still able to call out". I have theoF utmost respect for your VMS skills as I do for Rdb engineers' and ACMSH engineers' but who do I believe. The documentation (or my interpretation of it) is clearly deficient.  K Why am I digging? I *want* to be able to call $getuai! I want to be able toqJ call lib$get_vm! I want to be able to call $persona_create! (I cheered theL loudest when $persona_reserv/delegate arrived so that I could get around tis< problem) Please explain why *I* can't and everyone else can?  J >You can't call most RTL services from anything other than user-mode code. >                      ^^^^tB > You will generally need to use the kernel C RTL or a kernel-mode2 > accessabe system service entry point.      ^^^^^  G Ambiguous? equivocal? I know it's free advice and I should call supporty8 if I have a real problem but do you see what I'm saying?  A :   The memory could be freed by a shell routine or the user codemJ :itself. So what if user code buggers up the memory or the user mode stackH :for that matter, as long as the integrity of the protected subsystem is :maintained then who cares?s  K  >The RTL memory pool is shared, but is not re-entrant across access modes.p  L Thanks! I hadn't thought of that. This is the kind of Tip I was digging for.H So to free the lib$get_vm memory the shell routine has to call back intoI exec mode probe all pages for user mode write access and then free it up.(  & This is a quote from the LIBRTL docs:-  I ]All memory allocated by LIB$GET_VM_PAGE has user-mode read/write access,tC ]even if the call to LIB$GET_VM_PAGE is made from a more privilegedd
 ]access mode.   H To me it says calling lib$get_vm_page from an inner mode is just peachy!  H   >I prefer to avoid using this forum to provide a tutorial for cracking-   >into poorly-written privileged subsystems.c  D A tutorial yes; for cracking no! You know I couldn't care less aboutI hacking. All I want to do is provide software that is at least as safe ast6 DEC's own layered products (or what used to be DEC's).  I Anyway VMS has never relied on "Security through Obscurity"! VMS puts itsu@ stall out and says this is how we protect and it works - try it.  " BTW and  IMHO It may be prudent to2             $set file/prot=w:e sys$share:rdb$cosip  + :Is it safe to call $getuai from EXEC mode?a  
 >  AFAIK, no.    Dilemma :-(c   Regards Richard Maher.  K PS: I'll attach two examples of UWSS to the next reply. One that access the K UAF directly and the other that goes through $GETUAI any advice welcome. If ' you don't accept attachments the sorry.    PPS. From sys$examples:uwss.c    **E ** One final note on the service routines.  As a security precaution,-D ** protected shareable images aren't allowed to call other shareableE ** images, unless they too are installed protected.  Watch your callseD ** (including implicit ones) to external routines!  They must eitherD ** be linked (from object files or libraries) into your image, or beD ** in other protected images.  If you fail to heed this warning, the; ** image activator will 'kindly' remind you with the error:n **K ** SYSTEM-F-NOSHRIMG, privileged shareable image cannot have outbound callsn   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:53:15 +0000 (UTC) 1 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@notsohotmail.com>rQ Subject: Re: UWSSs and NOSHRIMG Calling out to other shareables (Not in cookbook)i1 Message-ID: <a1lgia$ikm$1@knossos.btinternet.com>s   Hi,   I For those of you that don't get attachments you can cut out the followingn and replace "%" by space.n  & It'll probably wrap but what can I do?   Regards Richard Maher>     $%on%warning%then%exitH $%if%.not.%f$privilege("cmkrnl,sysprv,pfnmap,bypass")%%then%goto%no_priv9 $%if%f$getsyi("arch_name")%.nes.%"Alpha"%then%goto%no_vaxd $! $%create%maher$share.mar ;++c ; 4 ;%(c)%Copyright%Tier3%Software.%All%rights%reserved. ;%A ;%%%%%Ownership%of%this%software%and%all%associated%intellectual%.@ ;%%%%%property%rights%remain%vested%in%Tier3%Software%Ltd.%%ThisA ;%%%%%software%%or%any%other%copies%thereof%%may%not%be%provided% 6 ;%%%%%or%otherwise%made%available%to%any%other%person. ;g* ;%%%%%Do%not%remove%this%copyright%notice. ;i ;%%%%%Author:%Richard%Maher  ;  ;--e= %%%%%%%%.macro%define_service,name,narg=0,mode=exec,?endmacroi %a3 %%%%%%%%'mode'_routine_count='mode'_routine_count+1s % 0 %%%%%%%%.call_entry%%%%%max_args=narg,%%%%%%%%%-0 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%home_args=true,%%%%%%%%-" %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%label=name %." %%%%%%%%.save_psect%%%%local_block %k %%%%%%%%.psect%%'mode'_list" %e %%%%%%%%.address%%%%%%%%name %  %%%%%%%%.restore_psect %  %%%%%%%%.if%not_equal%narg   %%%%%%%%%cmpb%%%%(ap),#narga %%%%%%%%%bgeq%%%%endmacrol  %%%%%%%%%movzwl%%#ss$_insfarg,r0 %%%%%%%%%ret %a	 endmacro:   
 %%%%%%%%.endc 
 %%%%%%%%.endmi  ? %%%%%%%%.title%%maher$share%-%Demo%User%Written%System%Services  %%%%%%%%.ident%%"V2.0" % & %%%%%%%%.library%"sys$library:lib.mlb"   %%%%%%%%$plvdef> %%%%%%%%$prvdefe %%%%%%%%$psldefM %%%%%%%%$dscdef  %%%%%%%%$ssdef %%%%%%%%$uaidefP  
 usrnam_max=12)
 out_len=94 enable=1	 disable=0a   kernel_routine_count=0 exec_routine_count=0 %eC %%%%%%%%.psect%%exec_list,pic,con,rel,lcl,noshr,noexe,rd,nowrt,longy exec_table:W %0E %%%%%%%%.psect%%kernel_list,pic,con,rel,lcl,noshr,noexe,rd,nowrt,longr
 kernel_table:  %n
 %%%%%%%%.page,C %%%%%%%%.psect%%_maher$data,pic,con,rel,lcl,noshr,noexe,rd,wrt,quad    uai_ctx: %%%%%%%%.long%%%0    uai_lst: %%%%%%%%.word%%%32,%uai$_defdevo %%%%%%%%.address%- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%def_dev) %%%%%%%%.long%%%0e   %%%%%%%%.word%%%64,%uai$_defdirt %%%%%%%%.address%- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%def_dirp %%%%%%%%.long%%%0y   %%%%%%%%.long%%%0d   def_dev: %%%%%%%%.blkb%%%32 def_dir: %%%%%%%%.blkb%%%64 fao_ctl: %%%%%%%%.ascid%%"!AC!AC" out_dsc: %%%%%%%%.long%%%out_lenr out_adr: %%%%%%%%.blkl%%%1t   %%%%%%%%.align%%quad sys_prv:%%%%%%% D %%%%%%%%.quad%%%<prv$m_sysprv!prv$m_audit>%%%%%%;%Just%to%test%HO-LW del_prv: %%%%%%%%.quad%%%0C old_prv: %%%%%%%%.blkq%%%1h   persona_id:h %%%%%%%%.long%%%0r	 byte_cnt:1 %%%%%%%%.long%%%10 vm_addr: %%%%%%%%.blkl%%%1a msg_vec: %%%%%%%%.long%%%1y %%%%%%%%.long%%%ss$_abortt  F %%%%%%%%.psect%%_maher$scratch,pic,con,rel,lcl,noshr,noexe,rd,wrt,quad   scratch_lw:. %%%%%%%%.long%%%0   A %%%%%%%%.psect%%_maher$code,pic,con,rel,lcl,shr,exe,rd,nowrt,quad   " %%%%%%%%.sbttl%%Get%directory%info  + %%%%%%%%define_service%maher$get_user_dir,3   H %%%%%%%%%ifnord%%#8,@4(ap),99$%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Can%descriptor%be%readB %%%%%%%%%movzwl%%@4(ap),r8%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Get%username%lenF %%%%%%%%%bnequ%%%10$%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Check%length%<>%zero! %%%%%%%%%movzwl%%#ss$_badparam,r0F %%%%%%%%%ret  D 10$:%%%%%cmpw%%%%#usrnam_max,r8%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Check%length%<=%12 %%%%%%%%%bgequ%%%20$! %%%%%%%%%movzwl%%#ss$_badparam,r0a %%%%%%%%%ret  G 20$:%%%%%addl3%%%#dsc$a_pointer,4(ap),r7%%%%%%%%;%Get%->%to%username%-> L %%%%%%%%%ifnord%%r8,(r7),99$%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%R%access%to%username%strin ghK %%%%%%%%%ifnowrt%#out_len,@8(ap),99$%%%%%%%%%%%%;%W%access%to%output%buff%%tI %%%%%%%%%ifnowrt%#2,@12(ap),99$%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%W%access%to%output%len%t %%%%%%%%%brb%%%%%100$e  K 99$:%%%%%movzwl%%#ss$_accvio,r0%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Indicate%access%violationr) %%%%%%%%%ret%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%x   100$:%%%%$setprv_s%-! %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%enbflg=#enable,-W! %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%prvadr=sys_prv,-  %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%prvprv=old_prva	 %%%%%%%%%d %%%%%%%%%$getuai_s%-! %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%contxt=uai_ctx,-t  %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%usrnam=@4(ap),- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%itmlst=uai_lst  %%%%%%%%%blbc%%%%r0,%999$   2 %%%%%%%%%$persona_create_s%-%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;\3 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%persona=scratch_lw,-%%%%%%%%%%%;%\ 4 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%usrnam=@4(ap)%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%%|4 %%%%%%%%%blbc%%%%r0,%999$%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%%|B %%%%%%%%%movl%%%%scratch_lw,persona_id%%%%%%%%%%;%%>%Just%a%coupleC %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%%>%of%dodgy%tests 4 %%%%%%%%%pushl%%%#0%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%%|4 %%%%%%%%%pushal%%vm_addr%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%%|3 %%%%%%%%%pushal%%byte_cnt%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%/m2 %%%%%%%%%calls%%%#3,g^lib$get_vm%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;/ %%%%%%%%%blbc%%%%r0,%999$e  H %%%%%%%%%movl%%%%8(ap),out_adr%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Set%descriptor%address! %%%%%%%%%$fao_s%%ctrstr=fao_ctl,-=! %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%outlen=@12(ap),-t! %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%outbuf=out_dsc,-n %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%p1=#def_dev,- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%p2=#def_dir   999$:%%%%movl%%%%r0,r5 %%%%%%%%%evax_bic%-sL %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%sys_prv,old_prv,del_prv%%%%%%%%;%Turn%off%privs%before%exit != %%%%%%%%%$setprv_s%-" %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%enbflg=#disable,- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%prvadr=del_prvw %%%%%%%%%movl%%%%r5,r0 %%%%%%%%%ret    J exec_rundown:%%%.jsb_entry%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Entry%point%for%rundown%9 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%handlerj  L %%%%%%%%$putmsg_s%-%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%sys$examples:uwss.c%says%n o?E %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%msgvec=msg_vec%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%but%Exec%mode%is%okn   %%%%%%%%rsbp    
 %%%%%%%%.PAGEo) %%%%%%%%.SBTTL%%Privileged%Library%Vectore   ;+L ;%Any%psect%with%the%VEC%attribute%will%be%automatically%moved%to%the%start% ;%of%the%image.e ;-6 %%%%%%%%.psect%%dickie$services,page,vec,pic,nowrt,exe %-H %%%%%%%%.long%%%%plv$c_typ_cmod%%%%%%%%%%;%Set%type%of%vector%to%change%: %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%mode%dispatcher3 %%%%%%%%.long%%%%0%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%ReservedoG %%%%%%%%.long%%%%kernel_routine_count%%%%;%#%of%Kernel%%%%mode%routines G %%%%%%%%.long%%%%exec_routine_count%%%%%%;%#%of%Executive%mode%routines > %%%%%%%%.address%kernel_table%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Kernel%routine%list< %%%%%%%%.address%exec_table%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Exec%routine%listA %%%%%%%%.long%%%%0%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Kernel%rundown%handler A %%%%%%%%.address%exec_rundown%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Exec%%%rundown%handlerj9 %%%%%%%%.long%%%%0%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%RMS%Dispatcher1? %%%%%%%%.long%%%%0%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Kernel%routine%flagsv? %%%%%%%%.long%%%%0%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%;%Exec%%%routine%flags. %e %%%%%%%%.end   $!$ $%macro/list/enable=quad%maher$share $!%  $%link%%/share=maher$share%- %%%%%%%%/sysexe%-g %%%%%%%%/map%- %%%%%%%%/cross%- %%%%%%%%/full%-  %%%%%%%%/notrace%- %%%%%%%%/section_binding%- %%%%%%%%maher$share,%- %%%%%%%%sys$input:/options   gsmatch=lequal,2,0  . symbol_vector%=%(maher$get_user_dir=procedure)  
 protect=no collect=scratch,_maher$scratch   protect=yesh collect=safe,_maher$data   $!- $copy/log%maher$share.exe%sys$common:[syslib]I $!: $if%f$file_attributes("sys$share:maher$share.exe","KNOWN") $then 2 $%%%%%%%installx%replace%sys$share:maher$share.exe $else 0 $%%%%%%%installx%add%sys$share:maher$share.exe%-2 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%/open/header/share=address/protect $!C $!%If%you%have%your%GH_RSRVPGCNT%SYSGEN%parameter%geared%up%for%it,e2 $!%you%can%install%maher$share%as%/RESIDENT%as%in: $!/ $!%%%%%%installx%add%sys$share:maher$share.exe%t4 $!%%%%%%%%%%%%%%/open/share=address/protect/resident $endif $!- $!%Need%SYSPRV%to%link%against%these%servicest $!5 $set%file/protection=(w:e)%sys$share:maher$share.exe% ! $purge%sys$share:maher$share.exe%i $! $create%maher$user.cob identification%division.1 program-id.%%%%ef_get_user_dir%with%ident%"V2.0".t *  data%division. working-storage%section.J 01%%ss$_normal%%%%%%%%%%pic%9(9)%%%%%%%%comp%%%%value%external%ss$_normal.H 01%%rms$_rnf%%%%%%%%%%%%pic%9(9)%%%%%%%%comp%%%%value%external%rms$_rnf.- 01%%sys_status%%%%%%%%%%pic%9(9)%%%%%%%%comp.t *a linkage%section. *m! 01%%username_desc%%%%%%%pic%x(8).  *d 01%%out_dir.- %%%%03%%out_dir_len%%%%%pic%9(4)%%%%%%%%comp. " %%%%03%%out_dir_text%%%%pic%x(94). *a procedure%division%r %%%%%%%%using%%%out_dir, %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%username_desc. 00.n  %%%%move%spaces%to%out_dir_text. %%%%move%zeroes%to%out_dir_len.    %%%%call%"maher$get_user_dir"%9 %%%%%%%%using%%%username_desc,%out_dir_text,%out_dir_len%5 %%%%%%%%giving%%sys_status.a %%%%if%sys_status%=%rms$_rnf" %%%%%%%%move%"NL:"%to%out_dir_text %%%%%%%%move%3%to%out_dir_lene %%%%else' %%%%%%%%if%sys_status%not%=%ss$_normal%@6 %%%%%%%%%%%%call%"lib$stop"%using%by%value%sys_status.   %%%%exit%program.i *  end%program%ef_get_user_dir. $! $cobol/lis%maher$user.cobM7 $link/share=maher$user.exe%maher$user.obj,sys$input/opti   sys$library:maher$share/share   ) symbol_vector=(ef_get_user_dir=procedure).   gsmatch=lequal,2,0 $!3 $define/nolog%maher$user%'f$parse("maher$user.exe")  $sql:==$sql$ $sql attach%'file%mf_personnel';-   drop%function%ef_get_user_dir;  < create%%function%ef_get_user_dir%(in%char(32)%by%descriptor)( %%%%%%%%returns%varchar(94)%by%reference %%%%%%%%language%sql ;n% %%%%%%%%external%name%ef_get_user_diri? %%%%%%%%location%'maher$user'%with%all%logical_name%translatione %%%%%%%%language%cobol' %%%%%%%%general%parameter%style%variantl? %%%%%%%%comment%is%'Get%UAF%device%and%directory%info%for%user'  %%%%%%%%BIND%ON%CLIENT%SITEe %%%%%%%%bind%scope%connect ;f commit;s exit;3 $exiti $!	 $no_priv:  $%%%%%%%write%sys$output%-H %%%%%%%%"Insufficient%privilege.%You%need%(CMKRNL,SYSPRV,PFNMAP,BYPASS)" $%%%%%%%exit%44  $no_vax:8 $%%%%%%%write%sys$output%"This%code%only%works%on%alpha" $%%%%%%%exit%44t   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 01:50:06 +0000 (UTC)i1 From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@notsohotmail.com>IQ Subject: Re: UWSSs and NOSHRIMG Calling out to other shareables (Not in cookbook)i/ Message-ID: <a1lgc9$oga$1@paris.btinternet.com>n   Hi,i  I The attached are DCL command files containing everything you need for twoeG UWSS examples that access the UAF for users without privs. One uses RMSp# directly and the other uses $getuail   Regards Richard maher.         begin 666 getuai_uwss.txty= M)"!O;B!W87)N:6YG('1H96X@97AI= T*)"!I9B N;F]T+B!F)'!R:79I;&5GS= M92@B8VUK<FYL+'-Y<W!R=BQP9FYM87 L8GEP87-S(BD@('1H96X@9V]T;R!Nm= M;U]P<FEV#0HD(&EF(&8D9V5T<WEI*")A<F-H7VYA;64B*2 N;F5S+B B06QP = M:&$B('1H96X@9V]T;R!N;U]V87@-"B0A#0HD(&-R96%T92!M86AE<B1S:&%Rt= M92YM87(-"CLK*PT*.PT*.R H8RD@0V]P>7)I9VAT(%1I97(S(%-O9G1W87)E = M+B!!;&P@<FEG:'1S(')E<V5R=F5D+@T*.R -"CL@(" @($]W;F5R<VAI<"!O = M9B!T:&ES('-O9G1W87)E(&%N9"!A;&P@87-S;V-I871E9"!I;G1E;&QE8W1U = M86P@#0H[(" @("!P<F]P97)T>2!R:6=H=',@<F5M86EN('9E<W1E9"!I;B!4l= M:65R,R!3;V9T=V%R92!,=&0N("!4:&ES#0H[(" @("!S;V9T=V%R92 @;W(@ = M86YY(&]T:&5R(&-O<&EE<R!T:&5R96]F("!M87D@;F]T(&)E('!R;W9I9&5De= M( T*.R @(" @;W(@;W1H97)W:7-E(&UA9&4@879A:6QA8FQE('1O(&%N>2!O 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@(&5X:70@<')O9W)A;2X-"BH-"F5N9"!P<= M<F]G<F%M(&YO=&EF>5]G971?=7-E<E]D:7(N#0HD(0T*)&-O8F]L+VQI<R!M9= M86AE<B1U<V5R+F-O8@T*)&QI;FLO<VAA<F4];6%H97(D=7-E<BYE>&4@;6%H#= M97(D=7-E<BYO8FHL<WES)&EN<'5T+V]P= T*#0IS>7,D;&EB<F%R>3IM86AE9= M<B1S:&%R92]S:&%R90T*#0IS>6UB;VQ?=F5C=&]R/2AE9E]G971?=7-E<E]D;= M:7(]<')O8V5D=7)E+&YO=&EF>5]G971?=7-E<E]D:7(]<')O8V5D=7)E*0T*9= M#0IG<VUA=&-H/6QE<75A;"PQ+#$-"B0A#0HD9&5F:6YE+VYO;&]G(&UA:&5R8= M)'5S97(@)V8D<&%R<V4H(FUA:&5R)'5S97(N97AE(BD-"B1S<6PZ/3TD<W%L:= M) T*)'-Q; T*871T86-H("=F:6QE(&UF7W!E<G-O;FYE;"<[#0H-"F1R;W @:= M9G5N8W1I;VX@969?9V5T7W5S97)?9&ER.PT*#0IC<F5A=&4@(&9U;F-T:6]N(= M(&5F7V=E=%]U<V5R7V1I<B H:6X@8VAA<B@S,BD@8GD@9&5S8W)I<'1O<BD-;= M"B @(" @(" @<F5T=7)N<R!V87)C:&%R*#DT*2!B>2!R969E<F5N8V4-"B @(= M(" @(" @;&%N9W5A9V4@<W%L#0H[#0H@(" @(" @(&5X=&5R;F%L(&YA;64@7= M969?9V5T7W5S97)?9&ER#0H@(" @(" @(&QO8V%T:6]N("=M86AE<B1U<V5R;= M)R!W:71H(&%L;"!L;V=I8V%L7VYA;64@=')A;G-L871I;VX-"B @(" @(" @8= M;&%N9W5A9V4@8V]B;VP-"B @(" @(" @9V5N97)A;"!P87)A;65T97(@<W1Y(= M;&4@=F%R:6%N= T*(" @(" @("!C;VUM96YT(&ES("='970@54%&(&1E=FEC9= M92!A;F0@9&ER96-T;W)Y(&EN9F\@9F]R('5S97(G#0H@(" @(" @($))3D0@(= M3TX@0TQ)14Y4(%-)5$4-"B @(" @(" @8FEN9"!S8V]P92!C;VYN96-T#0H@8= M(" @(" @(&YO=&EF>2!N;W1I9GE?9V5T7W5S97)?9&ER(&]N(&-O;FYE8W0->= M"CL-"F-O;6UI=#L-"F5X:70[#0HD97AI= T*)"$-"B1N;U]P<FEV.@T*)" @8= M(" @("!W<FET92!S>7,D;W5T<'5T("));G-U9F9I8VEE;G0@<')I=FEL96=E9= M+B!9;W4@;F5E9" H0TU+4DY,+%-94U!25BDB#0HD(" @(" @(&5X:70@-#0-(= M"B1N;U]V87@Z#0HD(" @(" @('=R:71E('-Y<R1O=71P=70@(E1H:7,@8V]D<9 I92!O;FQY('=O<FMS(&]N(&%L<&AA(@T*)" @(" @("!E>&ET(#0T#0H`> `" end    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:32:10 GMT<- From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley)( Subject: Re: VERB and SYS.STB=0 Message-ID: <3c3e243d.37444442@news.process.com>  B On Mon, 07 Jan 2002 17:24:36 +0100 (MET), "Dr. Martin P.J. Zinser"* <ZINSER@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:   >Hello,8 ><E >maybe he is not using the latest version of Verb. The one I have at :C >http://www.decus.de:8080/www/vms/sw/verb.htmlx can be build using ]D >descrip.mms without problem on OpenVMS Alpha (there is one harmless: >warning during compilation, which could be fixed easily). >>C There's a new, latest version of VERB.  This one increases the size5@ of a buffer used by VERB.  I changed the version to V2.2-1.  You can find it on:9   http://www.process.com/openvms/,  4 ftp://ftp.process.com/vms-freeware/fileserv/verb.zip   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/99 goathunter@goatley.com     http://www.goatley.com/hunter/8   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:12:57 -0800. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)# Subject: Re: VMS and VAX clustering8= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0201101312.4bca4936@posting.google.com>9  _ "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3C3BAC7C.98F29E7@fsi.net>...( > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > >  > > "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com> wrote in message news:<3C3A6B0A.90205@nospam.signaltreesolutions.com>... > > > David J. Dachtera wrote: > > >!	 >  [snip] N > > > > Actually, you've inspired me. I'm going to start planning now to writeO > > > > "OpenVMS Clusters for Dummies" and see if I can sell it to the folks at 5 > > > > IDG. (They don't have that one yet, do they?)5 > > >4M > > > I like the idea, but the "for Dummies" series probably wouldn't be that:L > > > appealing to your potential audience (which might include me). SomeoneK > > > who wants to know how clusters work because they are one of the great:N > > > computing inventions of the last few decades or someone who needs to setG > > > up an OpenVMS cluster for the first time to get real work done isYN > > > unlikely to be interested in the dummies series. It might, though, be anH > > > appropriate sell for management types who want to know why OpenVMSN > > > Clusters can keep the business from falling down when the building fallsH > > > down, and as an appropriate complement to the NT integration book. > >  > > /SERIOUS_MODE=OFF( > > A > > What to do when you've finished "Windows95 for Dummies"? Read G > > "Windows95 for Advanced Dummies"! For clusters, maybe just skip the(F > > "VMSclusters for Dummies" and go straight to the advanced version. > >  > > /SERIOUS_MODE=ON >  > What about newbies?;   Okay, write two books.   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman9 afeldman !@#$% gfigroup.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:56:44 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>$ Subject: Re: VMS resources' Message-ID: <3C3E0E1C.ADF462A4@aaa.com>#  < The question is realy, why select/specify countries at all ?   Jan-Erik Sderholm."   Syltrem wrote: > L > Yes, but then it only has jobs for those who live in the united states. Or  > those who are willing to move. > L > Is it possible that Canada be included in there? I would be most greteful.9 > There is a monster.ca so a link is probably possible...9 > L > I'm sure some would like to see UK, Australia, France, Sweden. Anyone else
 > on this ng?X > 
 > Regards, >  > -- > 	 > Syltrem;K > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais) @ > To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address > L > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> a crit dans le message news:) > H%i%7.516$5Y4.14611@news.cpqcorp.net... 
 > > Folks, > >(N > > If you are looking for VMS people or want to post your resume you may want > > to check out > > http://openvms.monster.com/9 > >Q > > Warm Regards,  > >% > > sue  > >9 > >Q > >9   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:42:30 -0500(- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>( Subject: Re: VMS resources, Message-ID: <3C3E18D2.2F17470C@videotron.ca>   Sue Skonetski wrote: >  > Folks, > L > If you are looking for VMS people or want to post your resume you may want > to check out > http://openvms.monster.com  1 Is this a USA only thing or a worldwide listing ?]  J Also, perhaps you should be sending out information to *all* VMS customers< that this is the place to look for if they want VMS experts.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 16:42:20 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)8 Subject: Re: VMS resources3 Message-ID: <dOQkmBWu2j3E@eisner.encompasserve.org>%  c In article <3C3E0E1C.ADF462A4@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes: > > The question is realy, why select/specify countries at all ?  D Perhaps because that is the way Monster.com has arranged their data.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:47:23 GMT>+ From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@farmer.org>5 Subject: Re: VMS resources= Message-ID: <vCq%7.9296$mi7.1475841@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>   I OpenVMS.org, http://www.openvms.org, has a Jobs Forum and a Resume Forum.9   Ken=   --   Kenneth Farmer http://www.OpenVMS.org http://www.Tru64.org      = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message:, news:H%i%7.516$5Y4.14611@news.cpqcorp.net... > Folks, >(L > If you are looking for VMS people or want to post your resume you may want > to check out > http://openvms.monster.com/] >X > Warm Regards,( >) > sue= >( >" >(   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 04:18:32 GMT91 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>! Subject: Re: VMS resources' Message-ID: <3C3E686E.BA1B478E@fsi.net>7   Sue Skonetski wrote: >  > Folks, > L > If you are looking for VMS people or want to post your resume you may want > to check out > http://openvms.monster.com/#  H I look there everyday. Pretty slim pickin's in Chicago. Hope others find better hunting...8   -- < David J. Dachtera( dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/(   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:22:24 -0700++ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>4 Subject: Re: VMS resources' Message-ID: <3C3E6880.1060409@mmaz.com>=  & --------------0500030901050908030409029 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit(   JF Mezei wrote:(   >Sue Skonetski wrote:  >- >>Folks, >>L >>If you are looking for VMS people or want to post your resume you may want >>to check out >>http://openvms.monster.com >> >*2 >Is this a USA only thing or a worldwide listing ? >(K >Also, perhaps you should be sending out information to *all* VMS customers = >that this is the place to look for if they want VMS experts.  > I Don't hold your breathe on this!  For the State of Arizona, which if you  H live at or near Phoenix (America's 6th fastest growing city), you total I aspiration in life better be limited to a junior programmer which is the /D only listing for a community of roughly 2 million.  Not great odds,  statistically, eh?     Barry    -- T  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028<      & --------------050003090105090803040902) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii< Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit9   <html> <head> </head>( <body> JF Mezei wrote:<br>,B <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:3C3E18D2.2F17470C@videotron.ca">-   <pre wrap="">Sue Skonetski wrote:<br></pre>5   <blockquote type="cite">     <pre wrap="">Folks,<br><br>If you are looking for VMS people or want to post your resume you may want<br>to check out<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://openvms.monster.com">http://openvms.monster.com</a><br></pre>     </blockquote>(     <pre wrap=""><!----><br>Is this a USA only thing or a worldwide listing ?<br><br>Also, perhaps you should be sending out information to *all* VMS customers<br>that this is the place to look for if they want VMS experts.</pre>(     </blockquote>*M Don't hold your breathe on this! &nbsp;For the State of Arizona, which if you#R live at or near Phoenix (America's 6th fastest growing city), you total aspirationJ in life better be limited to a junior programmer which is the only listingN for a community of roughly 2 million. &nbsp;Not great odds, statistically, eh?
 &nbsp;<br>     <br>	 Barry<br>0S     <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:3C3E18D2.2F17470C@videotron.ca"></blockquote>(8       <pre class="moz-signature" cols="$mailwrapcol">--   D Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President &amp; CIO    E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Treahy@mmaz.com">Treahy@mmaz.com</a> * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028</pre>(
       <br>
       </body>(
       </html>(  ( --------------050003090105090803040902--   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:05:42 -08009( From: "Ben Ransom" <bransom@ucdavis.edu> Subject: VMSBackup to unix. Message-ID: <a1lgvr$258$1@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>  F Anyone know of a utility or unix "dd" type of method to extract from aI VMSBackup set onto a unix system?  I've tried dd with some skip n blocks,91 but that is wild guessing and produces only glop.#   Here's what I get:. # dd if=/dev/rmt/tapenr  of=decstuff  ibs=8192 0+3 records in 0+1 records out9 #; # cat decstuffC VOL1DK1_F                 D%C          1          3HDR105JUL94F.DK1-J DK1_F 00010001000100 94187 94187 000000DECVMSBACKUP        HDR2F0819208192 M             00 #<  < TIA, and sorry for mentioning the u word on a vms newsgroup. -Ben Ransom]	  UC DavisE   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:05:48 -0600 ) From: James Norris <jnorris@metronet.com>  Subject: Re: VMSBackup to unix, Message-ID: <3C3E649C.5AFD87B0@metronet.com>   Ben Ransom wrote:Y  H > Anyone know of a utility or unix "dd" type of method to extract from aK > VMSBackup set onto a unix system?  I've tried dd with some skip n blocks,83 > but that is wild guessing and produces only glop.  >  > Here's what I get:0 > # dd if=/dev/rmt/tapenr  of=decstuff  ibs=8192 > 0+3 records in > 0+1 records out; > #  > # cat decstuffE > VOL1DK1_F                 D%C          1          3HDR105JUL94F.DK1(L > DK1_F 00010001000100 94187 94187 000000DECVMSBACKUP        HDR2F0819208192 > M             00 > #8 >#> > TIA, and sorry for mentioning the u word on a vms newsgroup.
 > -Ben Ransom" >  UC Davis!  L These are the ANSI tape label records.  You have a looooong way to go if you didn't recognize this.   JimT   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 08:36:17 -08001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)=, Subject: Re: what is future of VMS and alpha= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0201100836.22835b7d@posting.google.com>5  t "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<c_5%7.412864$C8.30149715@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...D > I may well not understand all the options of VMS host-based volumeN > shadowing, then - I thought the individual volumes were private to each hostL > and not accessible if that host failed (which would mean you're describingN > truly-shared devices, such as cooperating HSxs, above rather than host-basedM > volume shadowing, which was the specific area in question).  But if there's K > a way for one host of a host-based volume-shadowing pair to take over the9D > volume that had been being managed by another (failed) host (or ifH > host-based volume-shadowing allows both hosts to cooperate constantly,M > sharing access to both volumes in the shared pair), then I stand corrected.)  ? Host-based volume shadowing does indeed allow all hosts to have:F simultaneous access to shadowed disks.  Coordination is handled by the@ Shadowing code cooperating on all nodes via the distributed lockB manager.  Systems without a direct connection must send their I/Os? through a VMS MSCP server, of course, but the MSCP-serving code,> doesn't really have anything to do with coordinating access toC shadowed disks; it just basically shovels the I/Os through.  (To be = accurate, MSCP servers do help by keeping pre- and post-state C transition I/Os separate at the time of a cluster state transition,;C but that's done under the control of VMS for all disks, shadowed or! not.)T  E If the disks are local SCSI disks, then yes, loss of the host implies=E loss of access to the disks.  But ever since the days of the HSC (and=> continuing with the HSJ on CI, HSD on DSSI, SCSI disks (or HSZ> controllers) on multi-host SCSI busses or SCSI hubs, or HSG FCD controllers (or presumably raw FC disks) on FC fabrics, simultaneous$ multi-host access has been possible.  F As I recall, about 1992 the [phase II, or host-based] volume shadowingC developer seemed firmly convinced that the computing environment of:E the future would be moving toward shared-nothing clusters, where HBVS(@ shadowset members would be hanging off of individual nodes.  (OfF course, the use of SCSI in multi-host configurations with VMS was just? a dream at that point in time, so one can't blame him for being9F blindsided.)  He went on to work on the ill-fated NT Clusters project,A poor guy.  As things have turned out, technology has continued to:= allow (and most customers have chosen to use) multi-host disk7= configurations.  Even at the controller level, most folks use(A dual-redundant controllers to avoid loss of access to a shadowset=E member disk upon a controller failure.  It seems that in the event of*E a host or controller failure the pain of the repair operation (having<? to do a full-copy back) was too high in practice for most folks); compared with the additional cost of multi-path redundancy.(  D A good description of how host-based volume shadowing works is found1 in Scott Davis' Digital Technical Journal article=I (http://www.research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJ301/DTJ301SC.TXT),(/ and in Roy G. Davis' VAXcluster Principles book1o (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1555581129/qid%3D1010680004/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/107-5376593-4738160).=? ---------------------------------------------------------------Y? Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | Consulting on:9> Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Performance, I/O, Storage & SANs   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 17:13:54 -0800;< From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com>1 Subject: Re: What is the future of VMS and Alpha?4) Message-ID: <3C3E3C52.F5C9CD55@intel.com>X   JF Mezei wrote:]   > Bob Ceculski wrote:<K > > VMS is too heavily used by defense and government to go away ... either(= > > Compaq will port it to itanium or it will have to sell it, >EK > I disagree. Compaq could stop selling VMS today and stop the port to IA64;U > today and still make its commitments to the military by continuing support for VMS.; >+H > > even if it is not ported to itanium, ev7 ensures it will be a viable. > > platform for at least another 10 years ... >=O > And by that time, Windows will (should) be stabel enough and mature enough to<9 > take on those applications that used to be VMS' domain.,  K     I get soooo tired of that excuse, and from someone familiar enough with8% VMS to know better.  Shame on you JF!#  L     Windows will NEVER be stable enough or mature enough!  Why? (Do I reallyH need to answer that, geez...)  Because MS does not, and never will, haveL the engineering orientation and discipline to make security, reliability andJ availability their highest priority.  MS is explicitly (see posts here andH elsewhere) interested in getting product "out", not "right" or any otherN superlative you wish to use.  It's a simple result their cost/benefit analysis) and the reason BGInc makes so much money.0  J     What BGInc has done is simply to lower people's expectations, and whatK people have done in resonse is to work around those limitations by throwing5L a lot more people and platform-count at the problem.  By having many systemsM doing a little bit of the problem in parallel (e.g., web front ends), and one-N system going down has far less impact than one system running the whole thing.  L     And believe me, it is TRUE that to get "reliable" service from a WindowsJ server requires running a minimum number of different applications on eachK one.  Many times the solution to a server hanging or crashing is to replaceoH it by two or more servers each running only one of the apps the originalJ was running.  Oh, and just BTW...failover clusters (the only kind unix andJ Windows do) often don't...  "Node A hung but the cluster wouldn't failoverM to Node B...we don't know why (or) services A-L failover but not service Q... 1 we rebooted both nodes and then things worked..."a  L     Again, people are very smart and creative, and they learn to work aroundI these problems to the point they (their business) can live with them, butlH I don't count that the same as being "stable" or "mature" enough.  YMMV.       -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:24:28 +010009 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>R+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?3' Message-ID: <3C3E068C.47AE3314@aaa.com>m  ; I got both the umbrella and the brochure a few weeks beforea* Christmas. Both delivered to me in Sweden.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    Peter Weaver wrote:r > M > I have not seen it in Canada yet, but mind you I never saw the VMS umbrella0) > that Sue told me Compaq mailed to me :(  >i   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 00:14:42 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure? > Message-ID: <S7q%7.65288$Sj1.26824660@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in messaget! news:3C3E068C.47AE3314@aaa.com...w= > I got both the umbrella and the brochure a few weeks beforeh, > Christmas. Both delivered to me in Sweden.  ? Nothing has materialized in Ashland, the Toxic Waste Capital of 
 Taxachusetts!e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:51:11 -0700n+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>r$ Subject: Re: Windows version of DCL?' Message-ID: <3C3DFEBF.7030701@mmaz.com>o   Jerry Leslie wrote:p  , >RM (72242.3602@nospamcompuserve.com) wrote:; >: Is there a version of DCL that will run on a Windows PC?n >o% >http://www.accelr8.com/download.html  > D Boy, if this isn't an example of a business (ACCELR8) reengineering I itself out of the VMS market...  What they are now doing is interesting, D; but its obvious they are not betting their future on VMS...s   Barryb     -- i  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 21:20:50 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)-$ Subject: Re: Windows version of DCL?' Message-ID: <a1l0ji$h2c$2@joe.rice.edu>5  * Barry Treahy, Jr. (Treahy@mmaz.com) wrote:F : Boy, if this isn't an example of a business (ACCELR8) reengineering K : itself out of the VMS market...  What they are now doing is interesting,   :tC AFAIK, Accelr8 and Sector7 have always focused on the migration of n$ VMS applications to other platforms.  = : but its obvious they are not betting their future on VMS...i  D Right now, no prudent concern would bet their future on VMS, unless I Ms. Fiorina and Mr. Capellas issued a joint "VMS has a future" statement.,  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:41:56 -0500 * From: Chuck Chopp <ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com>$ Subject: Re: Windows version of DCL?+ Message-ID: <3C3E42E4.51F61562@rtfmcsi.com>n  	 RM wrote:m  : > Is there a version of DCL that will run on a Windows PC?  / http://www.advsyscon.com/products/xlnt/xlnt.aspa  E XLNT was originally billed as "DCL on WinNT and Win9x".  It has sinceo? grown into something slightly different but still very familiarrA looking.  Another alternative that will seem familiar is WinBatch-H [http://www.winbatch.com]; although it is not explicitly DCL on Windows,G it is still very easy to use and will seem very DCL-like in appearance.F     -- Chuck Chopp   8 ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com            http://www.rtfmcsi.com0                                   ICQ # 22321532@ RTFM Consulting Services Inc.     864 801 2795 voice & voicemail2 103 Autumn Hill Road              864 801 2774 fax4 Greer, SC  29651                  800 774 0718 pager7                                   8007740718@skytel.comy   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:40:28 -05006* From: Chuck Chopp <ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com>$ Subject: Re: Windows version of DCL?+ Message-ID: <3C3E428C.EBFD5695@rtfmcsi.com>m  	 RM wrote:%  : > Is there a version of DCL that will run on a Windows PC?  / http://www.advsyscon.com/products/xlnt/xlnt.aspu  E XLNT was originally billed as "DCL on WinNT and Win9x".  It has since ? grown into something slightly different but still very familiar-A looking.  Another alternative that will seem familiar is WinBatch H [http://www.winbatch.com]; although it is not explicitly DCL on Windows,G it is still very easy to use and will seem very DCL-like in appearance.h     -- Chuck Chopp,  8 ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com            http://www.rtfmcsi.com0                                   ICQ # 22321532@ RTFM Consulting Services Inc.     864 801 2795 voice & voicemail2 103 Autumn Hill Road              864 801 2774 fax4 Greer, SC  29651                  800 774 0718 pager7                                   8007740718@skytel.comt   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jan 2002 10:10:17 -0800(5 From: pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk (pat saunders), Subject: x25 AND set host = Message-ID: <bc0e3bd8.0201091010.53808d30@posting.google.com>:   hi,s8   When I type the command : SET HOST /X29 /DTE:<ADDRESS>'   I get the error : No lines available.u  B   Can anyone tell me how to configure x29 lines with decnet/vax orA point to appropriate documentation. This command used to work butyF after a disk failure , the configuration might have been lost. I think it is DECNET V4/5.   ta pat    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jan 2002 13:03:55 -08005 From: pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk (pat saunders)- Subject: x29 AND DTE ADDRESS= Message-ID: <bc0e3bd8.0201101303.3e77df37@posting.google.com>.   HI,hD   Does anyone know how to configure the x25/x29 DTE address of a vax@ using DECNET/OSI. I need to configure it again to be able to SET HOST/X29 /DTE<ADDRESS> ETC thanks in advance  patt   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 23:24:57 GMT ) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>rY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The     demise    oft' Message-ID: <3C3E3F13.47E53598@ev1.net>    jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > ) > In article <3C3C1037.4ABD9256@ev1.net>,r/ >    Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:  > > / > >       [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...]  > >y' > > ...That's why I see a lot of peoplei9 > >coming home from the office at eight or nine at night.h > >e9 > I don't understand this.  There must be an awful lot ofl > meetings going on. > ; Somebody has to do all the work of the people who have been  laid off...    -- d? +-------------------------------------------------------------+ ? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |m? +-------------------------------------------------------------+-   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 02 15:08:27 -0800* From: "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>X Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compa. Message-ID: <868.775T1358T9084571@sky.bus.com>  B In article <a1l020$2n6$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk> nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) writes:   ; >In article <a1kvm5$481g$1@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>,m( >bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote: >lH >>  As opposed to making the same mistake again? 'Mental inertia' is theG >>stock phrase used by bean counters when they want to hire cheap help. G >>Avoiding making the same mistakes repeatedly is a development processe >>to be avoided. >i@ >Making an original mistake is research; making a long-forgottenB >mistake is rediscovery; making a well-known mistake is stupidity.  A Experience is what lets you recognize your mistakes when you makea them again.e   --" cgibbs@sky.bus.com (Charlie Gibbs)5 Remove the first period after the "at" sign to reply.nD I don't read top-posted messages.  If you want me to see your reply,? appropriately trim the quoted text and put your reply below it.    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:05:09 +0000 (UTC)t& From: davidsen@tmr.com (bill davidsen)Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaq : Message-ID: <a1kvm5$481g$1@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>  8 In article <dse43u8v4q5odl58d5tsuii5tfp7qac0l1@4ax.com>,. israel r t  <israelrt@optushome.com.au> wrote:C | On 01 Jan 02 11:07:30 -0800, "Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@sky.bus.com>1 | wrote: |  | >Nowadays many companiesH | >would rather get rid of their veteran staff and replace them with newE | >recruits fresh out of school.  The bean counters like this because$B | >the new hires start at the bottom of the pay scale. ...  It's aK | >lot easier to sell an idea if you don't have to contend with spoilsportsd< | >who can draw on experience to tell you why it won't work. | F | Of course, with the new recruits, one does not have the problem with9 | mental atherosclerosis that affects so many over forty.s | H | Often "draw(ing) on experience to tell you why it won't work " becomesD | an excuse for mental inertia and a refusal to look at news ways of | doing things.   F   As opposed to making the same mistake again? 'Mental inertia' is theE stock phrase used by bean counters when they want to hire cheap help.1H Avoiding making the same mistakes repeatedly is a development process to be avoided.S  kH | It is no accident that Michael Dell and Bill Gates ( may his memory beF | erased ! ) were both young and in their late twenties when they madeB | the strategic decisions that took them where they currently are. | H | ( The cynical could also argue that only those in their youth would be9 | so devoid of ethics as to have made those decisons... )f  H   Most businesses are started by young people, mostly because they don'tC have assets to protect. When you have a house, savings, a family to E support, etc, you have some reasons to avoid betting it all. You also0G have less time to start over... when I was in my 20s I started a number H of businesses, none of which actually went bust, but now that I know how; much work running business takes I wouldn't do another one!    -- r  bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>G   His first management concern is not solving the problem, but coveringrH his ass. If he lived in the middle ages he'd wear his codpiece backward.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jan 2002 21:11:28 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: The demise of compaq 0 Message-ID: <a1l020$2n6$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  : In article <a1kvm5$481g$1@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>,' bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com> wrote:c >sG >  As opposed to making the same mistake again? 'Mental inertia' is therF >stock phrase used by bean counters when they want to hire cheap help.I >Avoiding making the same mistakes repeatedly is a development process to  >be avoided.  ? Making an original mistake is research; making a long-forgottenoA mistake is rediscovery; making a well-known mistake is stupidity.      Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:39:49 +0100t3 From: Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com>iY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq  - Message-ID: <3C3DEE05.AE37AAAD@hda.hydro.com>i   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:H > >I'm not vain enough to believe that I couldn't have a satisfying lifeJ > >without producing anything at all of value (to the rest of society), as* > >long as I had a good supply of SF books > D > Have you noticed the dearth of real SF lately?  And poorly written> > and typeset?  And I heaved whenever I read the ones that are  H Not that bad, really. I still find 5-10 book every time I visit my localA SF bookstore, and I do finish them all before buying a new batch.o   > about computers and the net.  < Not _nearly_ as bad as current movies about the same things. > $ > > ... and  problems/brain teasers. > = > Are those problems/brain teasers of your design or somebodya	 > esle's?e  ? Bad term. I do have the complete set of Martin Gardner's puzzledH collections, but interesting sw problems will do very nicely, thank you. :-)n   Terje  -- u  - <Terje.Mathisen@hda.hydro.com>@ "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:39:34 -0500g From: Paul Guertin <pg@sff.net>aO Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dem A Message-ID: <a3gs3u8fn0q7mbsunj12pbocermajmu26d@news.newsguy.com>n  $ Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:  F > All the Mac browsers I've used do "open in new window" if you click B > while holding the "command" key.  Much faster than using a menu.  > As someone once said about shift-, option-, ctrl- and command-@ clicking, "The Mac does have a multibutton mouse, it's just that3 Apple put all the buttons but one on the keyboard."i  B Shift-clicking has got to be one of the least intuitive operationsA there is. Why not have a click-while-turning-down-the-brightness-e knob, while you're at it?p  B If your interface uses a meta key to put the mouse in some special? mode, then put that key on the mouse itself, not on a unrelated. peripheral.c  = Apple got many things right with the MacOS interface, but the % shift- click thing isn't one of them.m   Paul Guertin
 pg@sff.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:21:29 -0500-* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>E Subject: RE: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Tn- Message-ID: <0033000047437377000002L072*@MHS>I  4 =0AClearly you've not read any recent L. Neil Smith.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET@( Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 2:06 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETE Subject: RE: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: T      On Thu, 10 Jan 02 11:21:14 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  F JC> Have you noticed the dearth of real SF lately?  And poorly written@ JC> and typeset?  And I heaved whenever I read the ones that are  JC> about computers and the net.  D      Yes indeed, there is very little about these days. The field isD almost (but not quite) as moribund as during the 'New Age' period ofD the late 70s/early 80s. I would probably be in despair if it weren'tD for Greg Egan, Stephen Baxter and a few others, Baen putting most of@ Spider Robinson back in print has helped too but that's just gapH filling :( Trouble is none of the modern good writers produce at anythi= ng, like the rate of Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein.   --H C:>WIN                                          |     Directable Mirror= suH The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus = The Sun H You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available -=  see:cH                                                 |   http://www.sohara.o= rg/=   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 19:19:57 +0100r, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise of compaq n7 Message-ID: <20020110191957.3a7a48d1.steveo@eircom.net>s   On Thu, 10 Jan 02 11:21:14 GMT jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  F JC> Have you noticed the dearth of real SF lately?  And poorly written@ JC> and typeset?  And I heaved whenever I read the ones that are  JC> about computers and the net.  @ 	Yes indeed, there is very little about these days. The field isD almost (but not quite) as moribund as during the 'New Age' period ofD the late 70s/early 80s. I would probably be in despair if it weren'tD for Greg Egan, Stephen Baxter and a few others, Baen putting most of@ Spider Robinson back in print has helped too but that's just gapI filling :( Trouble is none of the modern good writers produce at anythingd, like the rate of Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein.   -- wH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 19:27:53 GMT / From: "Don Chiasson" <don_chiasson@notmail.com>nY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demise of compaq 01 Message-ID: <ZWl%7.13455$h2c.5654@news2.bloor.is>a  9 "Steve O'Hara-Smith" <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in messages1 news:20020110191957.3a7a48d1.steveo@eircom.net...t  > On Thu, 10 Jan 02 11:21:14 GMT > jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote: > H > JC> Have you noticed the dearth of real SF lately?  And poorly writtenB > JC> and typeset?  And I heaved whenever I read the ones that are" > JC> about computers and the net. >mA > Yes indeed, there is very little about these days. The field is F > almost (but not quite) as moribund as during the 'New Age' period ofF > the late 70s/early 80s. I would probably be in despair if it weren'tF > for Greg Egan, Stephen Baxter and a few others, Baen putting most ofB > Spider Robinson back in print has helped too but that's just gapB > filling :( Trouble is none of the modern good writers produce at anything. > like the rate of Asimov, Clarke or Heinlein. >a <snip>>dE         Spider Robinson is excellent. Have you read the Wizard series-E (five books) by Rick Cook? Fantasy rather than SF, and very enjoyabler with good computer allusions.m             DonW e-mail: it's not not, it's hot.D   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.019 ************************