0 INFO-VAX	Sat, 12 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 22      Contents:A Re: 17 years and still waiting for my first VMS crash (yawn!) ... ) Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive 0 Arrondissez vos fins de mois avec Pronostics.com" Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business" Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business" Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business" Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS BusinessC Re: Compaq SDK/RTE/Fast VM v1.3.1-1 for OpenVMS Alpha Now Available & Re: CPQ Board Member Missing in Action& Re: CPQ Board Member Missing in Action& Re: CPQ Board Member Missing in Action Re: CSWS: POST Problem GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMS" Re: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMS" Re: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMS" Re: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMS" RE: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMS" Re: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMS" RE: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMS1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC P Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC - NTFS IS NOT CASE INSENSITIVE5 RE: How many Fibre Channel - Multiple Hosts/4 Fabrics 0 RE: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceeds$ Re: Multithreading within a process.& Re: question about TCPIP cluster aliasP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The d  SYS$SETAST while inside an AST ?$ Re: SYS$SETAST while inside an AST ? vax vms ingres cobol vms emacs: last call? the end?" Re: vms emacs: last call? the end?" Re: vms emacs: last call? the end? Re: VMSBackup to unix F Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demF Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demF Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demF Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demF Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demB Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demB Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demB Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demB Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demB Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 14:01:37 GMT ' From: Art Rice <arice1@tampabay.rr.com> J Subject: Re: 17 years and still waiting for my first VMS crash (yawn!) ...? Message-ID: <5lX%7.303590$oj3.60908999@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>    John McLean wrote:   >  >  > Michael Austin wrote:  >>   >> John McLean wrote: 	 >> <snip>  >> >J >> > I heard of a nice system crash in Melbourne, Australia one day.  TheyK >> > were using a crane to get one of the 8000 series machines in through a   >> > window on the second floor. >> >J >> > Apparently things were shaken but not stirred (too much) - just a fewG >> > parts needed.  The customer got a new machine but I think this one F >> > lived a useful operational life, albeit with a few dented panels. >> > >> > John McLean >>  K >> There were a number of stories like this when the big earthquake hit San 4 >> Francisco a few years ago (late 80's early 90's). >>  J >> " microvaxes that fell through the floor only needed to have the boardsK >> re-seated and booted the first try".  "Disk cabinets bouncing 4-5 inches % >> off the floor and kept running"...  >>   > G > I recall hearing at DECUS 1988 or 89 in Annaheim about something like  > this.  > D > The system manager said that the Vax actually fell over during theJ > earthquake.  About a minute or two after it happened the phone rang.  It6 > was a user.  The conversation went something like .. > "Is the Vax down ?"  > "Um, yes..."' > "Will it be up again in 10 minutes ?"  >  >  > John  J There was a similar story of a Tandem Manager who called support to bring J the system back up. When they began giving directions on how to start the K system via the console, it was discovered that the system was running just  ; fine.  The problem was that it was running on it's side :>)    --   Art Rice Tandem system Admin    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jan 2002 06:34:10 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.120519.killspam.00c7 (Wayne Sewell) 2 Subject: Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive. Message-ID: <pkWS0l$2qqpj@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  [ In article <3C3FAEAE.C828EB02@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > Christoph Gartmann wrote:  >>  g >> In article <3c3e5b7d.371578081@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz>, martin.hunt@inl.co.nz (Martin Hunt) writes: H >> >I am currently playing around with a Quantum DLT4500 tape drive withH >> >loader. If I dismount a tape, the next tape in the loader is loaded.I >> >But, is there any way of loading a specific tape, such as the tape in C >> >slot 4? Or, as I suspect, would I have to purchase a product to  >> >support this feature?   
 See below.  5 >> >It would be nice to be able to do something like: " >> >$ MOUNT/FOREIGN MKA500 /SLOT=4 >>  P >> I wrote a program to control a loader. It works fine with a Spectralogic tapeQ >> library, an overland DLT library and a Pioneer CD-ROM changer. If there is any . >> interest in it I'll put it up for download. > * > Yes! Please post it! (one vote in favor)    J For those whose management does not allow use of freeware, i.e. support isM required, there is also the JB product from Software Partners (www.sp32.com).    --  O =============================================================================== M Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx : http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-) O =============================================================================== N Sparky (from Bring It On): "In cheerleading, we throw people in the air.  Fat  	people don't go as high."   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 12:16:03 -00 2 From: "Pronostics.com" <commercial@pronostics.com>9 Subject: Arrondissez vos fins de mois avec Pronostics.com 5 Message-ID: <2696515-2200216121216340@pronostics.com>   ) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable    =09 L =09 =09=09Si vous rencontrez des difficult&eacute;s de lecture sur ce messa= ge cliquez ici.  Bonjour,  L =09Vous voulez gagner r&eacute;guli&egrave;rement des Euros et arrondir con= fortablement vos fins de mois ?    Si oui, suivez nos conseils !   L Vous ne serez pas d&eacute;&ccedil;u de nos r&eacute;sultats exceptionnels = !!    L Vous ne souhaitez pas profitez de nos conseils et ne voulez plus recevoir n= otre newsletter cliquez ici.L Toute l'&eacute;quipe de Pronostics.com s'excuse du d&eacute;sagr&eacute;me= nt caus&eacute; par ce mail.  B Vous trouverez des pronostics sur de nombreuses courses hippiques.    L  Des pronostics pour les tierc&eacute;s / quart&eacute;s / quint&eacute;s d= e trot avec 8 chevaux maximum.    L  Des pronostics pour le coupl&eacute; gagnant en champ r&eacute;duit. Mise =C : 26 Euros maximum R&eacute;ussite : entre 60 et 70 % annuellement.     L  Des pronostics pour le jeu simple plac&eacute;. Mise : 15 Euros. Un seul c=L heval &agrave; jouer, rentable &agrave; masse &eacute;gale. Mise indiff&eac=6 ute;rente 70 % de r&eacute;ussite de moyenne annuelle.    L  Des pronostics pour le jeu simple gagnant. Trois chevaux &agrave; jouer. 2=L 3 Euros maximum. 70 &agrave; 80 % de r&eacute;ussite moyenne annuelle. Aucu=9 ne gestion financi&egrave;re - Tr&egrave;s bon rendement.   L Les courses &agrave; &eacute;v&eacute;nement de trot ont &eacute;t&eacute; =L choisies pour diverses raisons que vous trouverez dans la rubrique =AB Cons=. eils =BB du site. &Agrave; lire attentivement.  L Dans la rubrique =AB Bilans =BB, vous trouverez des bilans tr&egrave;s d&ea=B cute;taill&eacute;s mis &agrave; jour r&eacute;guli&egrave;rement.  L En bonus, vous trouverez &eacute;galement de temps &agrave; autre, un prono=L stic coupl&eacute; gagnant en champ r&eacute;duit dans une course bien pr&e=L acute;cise, ainsi qu=92un pronostic sur le Classic Tierc&eacute; et un autr=L e sur le Multi, toujours dans les courses de trot. Pour ces paris, aucun bi=L lan, ces jeux &eacute;tant laiss&eacute;s &agrave; votre libre appr&eacute;=L ciation. Sachez tout de m&ecirc;me qu=92ils ont une bonne r&eacute;ussite e= t une bonne rentabilit&eacute;.     * Profitez de notre offre exceptionnelle !!!  L Pour un abonnement de 3 mois (76.22 Euros / 500 FF), nous vous offrons le q= uatri&egrave;me mois.   . A bient&ocirc;t sur le site www.pronostics.com   =09 ) ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 + Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" + Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable   > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">   <html> <head>  =09<title>Pronostics.com</title> </head>    <body bgcolor=3D"White">  4 <table width=3D"100%" border=3D"0" align=3D"center"> <tr>4 =09<td width=3D"100%" align=3D"left" valign=3D"top"> =09 L =09<font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"Teal"><div align=3D"center"><font size=3D"=L -2" color=3D"Black">Si vous rencontrez des difficult&eacute;s de lecture su=L r ce message <a href=3D"http://www.pronostics.com/mail-pronostic.html">cliq= uez ici.</a></font></div><br>    Bonjour,<br><br> =09 L Vous voulez <b>gagner r&eacute;guli&egrave;rement des Euros</b> et arrondir=+  confortablement vos fins de mois ?<br><br>    Si oui, suivez nos conseils !   L <!--- Venez visiter le site <a href=3D"http://www.pronostics.com">www.prono= stics.com</a><br><br> --->L                                                                            =L           <b>Vous ne serez pas d&eacute;&ccedil;u de nos <a href=3D"http://=L www.pronostics.com/"><font color=3D"Red">r&eacute;sultats exceptionnels !!<=  /font></a></b><br><br><br></div>  L <font size=3D"-2" color=3D"Blue"><div align=3D"center">Vous ne souhaitez pa=L s profitez de nos conseils et ne voulez plus recevoir notre newsletter <a h=L ref=3D"mailto:remove@pronostics.com?subject=3DREMOVE">cliquez ici.</a><br>T=L oute l'&eacute;quipe de Pronostics.com s'excuse du d&eacute;sagr&eacute;men=0 t caus&eacute; par ce mail.</div></font><br><br>  L <div align=3D"center">Vous trouverez des pronostics sur de nombreuses cours= es hippiques.</div><br><br>   L <li> Des pronostics pour les <b>tierc&eacute;s / quart&eacute;s / quint&eac=1 ute;s</b> de trot avec 8 chevaux maximum.<br><br>   L <li> Des pronostics pour le coupl&eacute; gagnant en champ r&eacute;duit. M=L ise : 26 Euros maximum <b>R&eacute;ussite : entre 60 et 70 % annuellement.<= /b><br><br>   L <li> Des pronostics pour le jeu simple plac&eacute;. Mise : 15 Euros. Un se=L ul cheval &agrave; jouer, rentable &agrave; masse &eacute;gale. Mise indiff=I &eacute;rente <b>70 % de r&eacute;ussite de moyenne annuelle.</b><br><br>   L <li> Des pronostics pour le <b>jeu simple gagnant</b>. Trois chevaux &agrav=L e; jouer. 23 Euros maximum. <b>70 &agrave; 80 %</b> de r&eacute;ussite moye=L nne annuelle. Aucune gestion financi&egrave;re - <b>Tr&egrave;s bon rendeme= nt.</b><br><br>   L Les courses &agrave; &eacute;v&eacute;nement de trot ont &eacute;t&eacute; =L choisies pour diverses raisons que vous trouverez dans la rubrique =AB <b><=L a href=3D"http://www.pronostics.com/">Conseils</a></b> =BB du site. <b><fon=? t color=3D"Red">&Agrave; lire attentivement.</font></b><br><br>   L Dans la rubrique =AB <b><a href=3D"http://www.pronostics.com">Bilans</a></b=L > =BB, vous trouverez des bilans tr&egrave;s d&eacute;taill&eacute;s mis &a=0 grave; jour r&eacute;guli&egrave;rement.<br><br>  L En bonus, vous trouverez &eacute;galement de temps &agrave; autre, un prono=L stic coupl&eacute; gagnant en champ r&eacute;duit dans une course bien pr&e=L acute;cise, ainsi qu=92un pronostic sur le Classic Tierc&eacute; et un autr=L e sur le Multi, toujours dans les courses de trot. Pour ces paris, aucun bi=L lan, ces jeux &eacute;tant laiss&eacute;s &agrave; votre libre appr&eacute;=L ciation. Sachez tout de m&ecirc;me qu=92ils ont une bonne r&eacute;ussite e=+ t une bonne rentabilit&eacute;.<br><br><br> L                                                                            =L        <div align=3D"center"><font color=3D"Red"><b>Profitez de notre offre=,  exceptionnelle !!!</b></font></div><br><br>  L <div align=3D"center">Pour un abonnement de 3 mois (76.22 Euros / 500 FF), =@ <b>nous vous offrons</b> le quatri&egrave;me mois.</div><br><br> =20  =20 L A bient&ocirc;t sur le site <a href=3D"http://www.pronostics.com">www.prono=# stics.com</a><br><br></font></font>    =09</td> </tr>  </table>         </body>  </html>   + ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 03:26:52 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> + Subject: Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business , Message-ID: <3C3FF34B.72178B92@videotron.ca>   Don Sykes wrote: > J > First, no one using Unix or NT is going to consider VMS a better OS with > case INsensitive filenames.   N Is that really the case ? I would have thought that in a business environment,I they just agree to live with that case sensitivity liability. But from an N operations and support point of view, NOT having to spell a file name over theT phone with case specications for each file name is an advantage, not a disadvantage.  & > I know there are those cov folks whoJ > disagree, but I think it would be a BIG plus if at least filenames couldH > convert one-to-one. Also, Unix style symbolic links must be supported.  M When in Rome, do as the romans do. The VMS style is to use logical names, and I guess what, they are far more flexible and more "esthetic" than having to @ create link files and then deleting them when no longer needed.   L Heck, even IBMS, JCL has the equivalent of logical names that allow the same1 image to use different files without recompiling.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jan 2002 07:07:25 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)+ Subject: Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201120707.74c18acc@posting.google.com>   Q david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message news:<a1ndka$97a$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>... W > In article <3C3F2BBC.75F08991@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> writes:  > > & > >I restate part of a previous post :F > >VMS could still be saved, but it would take some group with $$$ and > >vision and even some I > >acceptance from the VMS community that the OS needs to evolve and that 6 > >might be more difficult than getting the investors. > >  > H > VMS has always been evolving. In which particular areas do you want it8 > to evolve further and in which particular directions ? >  > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University >  > >Rick Nickles wrote: > >>  J > >> It really seems that the best thing for VMS is to spin it off as it'sI > >> own separate business (company).  That way there isn't the political0K > >> agenda with Microsoft, and then they are free to market VMS like crazy K > >> and really build up a following as a single company.  Compaq stands tooJ > >> gain, The users stand to gain, Customers stand to gain.  The only oneI > >> that might lose is Microsoft, and it isn't like they'll be hurt thatP > >> bad anyway. > >> s > >> What do you think folks?.  I evolving, but too slowly ... Palmer put it behind by not allowing any VMSnE enhancements like say Apache ... he tried to force everyone to NT ...iI I talk too many old vms support people still there from dec and they saidiF practically anything that runs on unix can be ported easily to vms andI had wanted to do many enhancements but Palmer wouldn't let them, and letsIH face it, Compaq allowed some because NT Itanium flopped, but it is stillK under retraints and advertisement is non existent ... and I seriously doubtgI it will improve under the HP pc crowd who it sounds like will try to pushlL vms users onto hp unix, but like Palmer, that will fail and they will eitherE have to support or sell vms, or lose the vms customer base to IBM ...t   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jan 2002 07:11:09 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)+ Subject: Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Businessr= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201120711.6923fe71@posting.google.com>c  Z Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<3C3F9941.607A6DB7@pacbell.net>...J > First, no one using Unix or NT is going to consider VMS a better OS withB > case INsensitive filenames. I know there are those cov folks whoJ > disagree, but I think it would be a BIG plus if at least filenames couldH > convert one-to-one. Also, Unix style symbolic links must be supported.H > Hard links a-la "set file/entry=xxx.dat yyy.dat" are not sufficient. IG > could live without these things, but I know non vms people are alwaysYG > touting these deficiencies as examples of how old and out of date vms  > is.rH > In fact if I had my way I'd create an OS that was a super set of VMS &H > Unix, where DCL & csh & ksh would all work just fine on the underlying	 > system.v >   F who wants to use case sensitive file names?  thats asking for trouble!E and logicals are superior to stupid file links anyday ... as for unix @ command set on vms, just replace dcl in the cli with a unix one!   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 18:52:42 GMTr* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>+ Subject: Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Businesse@ Message-ID: <ZB%%7.26142$jc.1507846@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3C3FB58A.E6FEDB09@fsi.net...    ...   H > Well, technically, "SET FILE/ENTER" produces the equivalent of a "softF > link" - a new directory entry that point to the original file headerF > ("inode", in UN*X-speak). No new file header ("inode") is allocated.  K I'm no Unix expert, but I believe you have the definitions of hard and soft  links reversed.x   ...e  G > 1. In ODS, there is no linked list connecting all of the "aliases" toeI > the actual file itself. So, there's no way to find, for any given file,u- > all the aliases on a specific volume(-set).o  I AFAIK the inode maintains a 'links count' that indicates *how many* linkso/ exist, but has no data to support finding them.e   >eI > 2. In UN*X-land, the "inode" - equivalent to a file header - does *NOT*eJ > contain the filespec. Thus, if the directory entry is lost for the "realD > file", it becomes very difficult to find the "beginning" of a file > chain.  ; 'File chain'?  Are you confusing Unix's file structure withrH MS-DOS's/Win9x's, where there's no 'inode'-like structure at all and theH directory entry just points to the FAT entry for the file's start block?  E Unix inodes contain mostly the same information as an Index file file E header - just not the name.  So if you can find the inode, there's noaL problem ascertaining where the file starts (or anything else about it, other than its name).n  ?  That's really only an issue for soft-links, though. Hard-linksbI > use an additional inode; so, at least a file can be called by an alias,tC > even if the original directory or directory entry for it is lost.   , Same hard/soft definition reversal as above.  F As I said, I'm no Unix expert, so if I'm the one who's confused I hope someone will enlighten me.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jan 2002 21:39:32 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.120519.killspam.00c7 (Wayne Sewell)eL Subject: Re: Compaq SDK/RTE/Fast VM v1.3.1-1 for OpenVMS Alpha Now Available. Message-ID: <GPjGEbcCMGZc@tachxxsoftxxconsult>   In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B74@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> writes: > Hello All, > I > As a fyi - the latest Compaq SDK/RTE/Fast VM v1.3.1-1 for OpenVMS Alpha  > is now available.n > E > http://www.compaq.com/java/alpha/index.html (Main Compaq Alpha Java  > Page)bE > http://www.compaq.com/java/documentation/1.3.1/ovms/docs/INDEX.HTMLr > (Documentation)eJ > http://www.compaq.com/java/download/jdk_ovms/1.3.1/j2sdk1.3.1_highlights > html (JDK 1.3.1-1 highlights)yJ > http://www.compaq.com/java/download/fastvm_ovms/1.3.1/fvm131_highlights.# > html (Fast VM 1.3.1-1 highlights)nF > http://www.compaq.com/java/contact/index.html#OpenVMS (Contact Info) >     O Great!  Been looking for that.  They didn't quite make their "before the end of5+ the year", but they came pretty close.  :-):  , Now to try running applets from VMS Mozilla.   -- WO ===============================================================================JM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx : http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)oO =============================================================================== N Sparky (from Bring It On): "In cheerleading, we throw people in the air.  Fat  	people don't go as high."   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jan 2002 07:04:10 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)o/ Subject: Re: CPQ Board Member Missing in Actionh' Message-ID: <a1on5a$57q$2@joe.rice.edu>L  3 Terry C. Shannon (terryshannon@mediaone.net) wrote:tI : Perhaps prompted by the MIA Report in this forum, Compaq today 'fessed nJ : up to the fact that His Kenness "stepped down" from the Compaq Board at F : the end of 2001. Guess he has other pressing matters he must pursue M : (Henry Waxman apparently is in hot pursuit of Mr. Lay at this very moment).r : M : Lay also abdicated Board seats on two other corporate Boards in October and= : December.=  4    http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-8446504.html?    Enron CEO Lay leaves Compaq's board -  Tech News -  CNET.com8  &    Enron CEO Lay leaves Compaq's board
    By Reutersy!    January 11, 2002, 1:55 p.m. PTx  B   "NEW YORK--Troubled energy giant Enron's Chief Executive Ken LayH    stepped down from Compaq Computer's board of directors effective Dec.G    31, 2001, a Compaq representative said Friday. See special coverage:     Big iron: HP to buy Compaq   H    The move comes after Houston-based Enron filed the largest bankruptcyD    case in U.S. history in December. That same month, pharmaceutical;    giant Eli Lilly said Lay had resigned from its board..."2  " And the truth about Enron :-) :-)   2    http://www.satirewire.com/news/0111/enron.shtml(    SatireWire | Enron Actually Argentina  %   "ENRON ADMITS IT'S REALLY ARGENTINAlC    Now Massive Ineptitude, Corruption Make More Sense, Analysts Sayc  <    Houston, Texas (SatireWire.com) -- Collapsed due to grossD    mismanagement and insurmountable debt, energy company Enron todayF    confessed to what many observers had long suspected: it is actually    Argentina..."   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 04:24:16 -0500e% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>u/ Subject: Re: CPQ Board Member Missing in Action., Message-ID: <3C4000BD.F3EA0B69@videotron.ca>   Jerry Leslie wrote:aD >   "NEW YORK--Troubled energy giant Enron's Chief Executive Ken LayJ >    stepped down from Compaq Computer's board of directors effective Dec.I >    31, 2001, a Compaq representative said Friday. See special coverage:. >    Big iron: HP to buy Compaqp  I Is this a retroactive resignation to hide the fact that Compaq would have; fired him only yesterday ?L Or did the guy really resign dec 31 and Compaq didn't bother saying so until his name became public ?  K In the later case, how come Compaq would have hidden that information until 0 now ? Is that something the SEC would tolerate ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 12:22:12 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>/ Subject: Re: CPQ Board Member Missing in Actionr> Message-ID: <UTV%7.68251$Sj1.27952878@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>  2 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C4000BD.F3EA0B69@videotron.ca... > Jerry Leslie wrote:qF > >   "NEW YORK--Troubled energy giant Enron's Chief Executive Ken LayL > >    stepped down from Compaq Computer's board of directors effective Dec.K > >    31, 2001, a Compaq representative said Friday. See special coverage:t! > >    Big iron: HP to buy Compaq& >aK > Is this a retroactive resignation to hide the fact that Compaq would haveu > fired him only yesterday ?H > Or did the guy really resign dec 31 and Compaq didn't bother saying so untill > his name became public ?  L December 31 seems logical. Especially in light of the fact that Ken left twoK other Boards in October-December. Note that Ken was *not* listed on the CPQlK Investor Relations Web page as of 9 January. Hence I think there's no basisf3 to any claim that the guy was sacked on January 11.n  I Ken will have plenty to keep him occupied, not the least of which is mucheK ankle-biting from Clinton ankle-biter Henry Waxman. This could all get real_I interesting, since Ken sat on multiple boards and Enron got Big Bucks notC@ just from the US Republican party but from the leftists as well.  D Perhaps this is just as well. We need a diversion from the continualA coverage of Osama Has Been and His Troupe of Trained Maggots. ;-}>  H We now return to things VMS-related, where Charlie Matco predicts betterD than expected performance out of the High Performance Systems Group.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 13:23:59 -0500>, From: Michael Austin <maustin@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: CSWS: POST Problem3- Message-ID: <3C407F3F.A17AF30D@bellsouth.net>"   Michael Austin wrote:t > H > I know this is OT for this group, but I am hoping that someone has run > across this  issue.b > - > I have a form generated by a CGI script at:< > 1 > http://www.firstdbasource.com/cgi-bin/test_forme > A > Which submits to a version of the TEST-GCI-DCL.COM procedure inc > APACHE$ROOT:[CGI-BIN]  > E > When you Submit the form, it should give you all of the environment ? > variables including QUERY_STRING and display the values being3J > submitted.  If I use GET or PUT, these do show up, but not during a POSTH > and the variables from the form are not parsed.  I cannot get these toF > display in either Netscape 4.7 or IE5.x. Did I miss something in the> > command procedure (typed out at the end of the result page). > I > I have a C program that reads STDIN and does parse these out correctly.l > Seee > 8 > http://www.firstdbasource.com/cgi-bin/TEST_FORM_C_PROG >  > Any Ideas? >  > -- > 
 > Regards, >  > Michael Austin9 > First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.como > President/Sr. DBA Consultant > 704-947-1089 (Office)  > 704-236-4377 (Mobile)s  H I guess we have no takers on this one...    My website is currently downG due to squabbles with my ADSL provider not allowing *any* web servers. c" I may be changing providers soon.   F Here is the results of a simple check box/text form submitted to a DCL  CGI program using a POST method:    * CGI test script (test-cgi-vms.com) report:  
 $  set verifyr $  APACHE$DCL_ENV -d s $  APACHE$DCL_ENV -c d $  APACHE$DCL_ENV -l 7     (CGI Environment Variables)      "WWW_CONTENT_LENGTH" = "31"s:   "WWW_CONTENT_TYPE" = "application/x-www-form-urlencoded"B   "WWW_DOCUMENT_ROOT" = "/apache$common/htdocs/firstdbasource_com">   "WWW_HTTP_ACCEPT" = "image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, image/png, */*"2   "WWW_HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET" = "iso-8859-1,*,utf-8"%   "WWW_HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING" = "gzip"e#   "WWW_HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE" = "en"o&   "WWW_HTTP_CONNECTION" = "Keep-Alive"#   "WWW_HTTP_HOST" = "192.168.1.200"t    "WWW_HTTP_PRAGMA" = "no-cache"?   "WWW_HTTP_REFERER" = "http://192.168.1.200/cgi-bin/test_form"t8   "WWW_HTTP_USER_AGENT" = "Mozilla/4.75 [en] (Win98; U)"   "WWW_PATH" = "dra0:[apache]"%   "WWW_REMOTE_ADDR" = "192.168.1.102"t   "WWW_REMOTE_PORT" = "1731";   "WWW_SCRIPT_FILENAME" = "/apache$root/cgi-bin/monroe.COM">%   "WWW_SERVER_ADDR" = "192.168.1.200"l3   "WWW_SERVER_ADMIN" = "maustin@firstdbasource.com"e.   "WWW_SERVER_NAME" = "www.firstdbasource.com"   "WWW_SERVER_PORT" = "80"<   "WWW_SERVER_SIGNATURE" = "<ADDRESS>Apache/1.3.14 Server at( www.firstdbasource.com Port 80</ADDRESS> "e@   "WWW_SERVER_SOFTWARE" = "Apache/1.3.14 (OpenVMS) mod_perl/1.21 mod_ssl/2.7.1 OpenSSL/0.9.5a"b)   "WWW_UNIQUE_ID" = "PECA1MCoAcgAAANbUXw"&%   "WWW_GATEWAY_INTERFACE" = "CGI/1.1"e$   "WWW_SERVER_PROTOCOL" = "HTTP/1.0"   "WWW_REQUEST_METHOD" = "POST"    "WWW_QUERY_STRING" = "" '   "WWW_REQUEST_URI" = "/cgi-bin/monroe" '   "WWW_SCRIPT_NAME" = "/cgi-bin/monroe"" $wait 00:00:01  
 $set noverifyc    G Generated on host alpha1.firstdbasource.com at 12-JAN-2002 13:30:46.53.n  + Default directory is APACHE$ROOT:[CGI-BIN].n     APACHE$INPUT is SYS$COMMAND.   SYS$COMMAND is _BG8217.     For PUT methods in .COM scripts:D         $ define/NoLog SYS$INPUT APACHE$INPUT: ! early in .COM file.     symbol C1 =  symbol WWW_C1 =  logical    C1 =    symbol KEY1 =  symbol WWW_KEY1 =  logical    KEY1 =    symbol QUERY_STRING =  symbol WWW_QUERY_STRING =  logical    QUERY_STRING =    symbol WWW_QUERY_STRING =  symbol WWW_WWW_QUERY_STRING =  logical    WWW_QUERY_STRING =   ? symbol DOCUMENT_ROOT = /apache$common/htdocs/firstdbasource_com C symbol WWW_DOCUMENT_ROOT = /apache$common/htdocs/firstdbasource_comr logical    DOCUMENT_ROOT = f  " symbol GATEWAY_INTERFACE = CGI/1.1& symbol WWW_GATEWAY_INTERFACE = CGI/1.1 logical    GATEWAY_INTERFACE = o  < symbol HTTP_ACCEPT = image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, image/png, */*w@ symbol WWW_HTTP_ACCEPT = image/gif, image/x-xbitmap, image/jpeg, image/pjpeg, image/png, */*a logical    HTTP_ACCEPT = t  / symbol HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET = iso-8859-1,*,utf-8i3 symbol WWW_HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET = iso-8859-1,*,utf-8t! logical    HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSET = o  " symbol HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING = gzip& symbol WWW_HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING = gzip" logical    HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING =     symbol HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE = en$ symbol WWW_HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE = en" logical    HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE =   # symbol HTTP_CONNECTION = Keep-Alivel' symbol WWW_HTTP_CONNECTION = Keep-Alives logical    HTTP_CONNECTION = s    symbol HTTP_HOST = 192.168.1.200$ symbol WWW_HTTP_HOST = 192.168.1.200 logical    HTTP_HOST = -  5 symbol HTTP_USER_AGENT = Mozilla/4.75 [en] (Win98; U)t9 symbol WWW_HTTP_USER_AGENT = Mozilla/4.75 [en] (Win98; U)V logical    HTTP_USER_AGENT = 1   symbol PATH = dra0:[apache]. symbol WWW_PATH = dra0:[apache]x logical    PATH =   " symbol REMOTE_ADDR = 192.168.1.102& symbol WWW_REMOTE_ADDR = 192.168.1.102 logical    REMOTE_ADDR = o   symbol REMOTE_PORT = 1731    symbol WWW_REMOTE_PORT = 1731i logical    REMOTE_PORT = i   symbol REQUEST_METHOD = POST  symbol WWW_REQUEST_METHOD = POST logical    REQUEST_METHOD =   $ symbol REQUEST_URI = /cgi-bin/monroe( symbol WWW_REQUEST_URI = /cgi-bin/monroe logical    REQUEST_URI = e  8 symbol SCRIPT_FILENAME = /apache$root/cgi-bin/monroe.COM< symbol WWW_SCRIPT_FILENAME = /apache$root/cgi-bin/monroe.COM logical    SCRIPT_FILENAME =    $ symbol SCRIPT_NAME = /cgi-bin/monroe( symbol WWW_SCRIPT_NAME = /cgi-bin/monroe logical    SCRIPT_NAME =    0 symbol SERVER_ADMIN = maustin@firstdbasource.com4 symbol WWW_SERVER_ADMIN = maustin@firstdbasource.com logical    SERVER_ADMIN =   + symbol SERVER_NAME = www.firstdbasource.comn/ symbol WWW_SERVER_NAME = www.firstdbasource.com  logical    SERVER_NAME = l   symbol SERVER_PORT = 80  symbol WWW_SERVER_PORT = 80, logical    SERVER_PORT = u  ! symbol SERVER_PROTOCOL = HTTP/1.0 % symbol WWW_SERVER_PROTOCOL = HTTP/1.0i logical    SERVER_PROTOCOL = a  : symbol SERVER_SIGNATURE = <ADDRESS>Apache/1.3.14 Server at( www.firstdbasource.com Port 80</ADDRESS>  > symbol WWW_SERVER_SIGNATURE = <ADDRESS>Apache/1.3.14 Server at( www.firstdbasource.com Port 80</ADDRESS>   logical    SERVER_SIGNATURE =   > symbol SERVER_SOFTWARE = Apache/1.3.14 (OpenVMS) mod_perl/1.21 mod_ssl/2.7.1 OpenSSL/0.9.5aB symbol WWW_SERVER_SOFTWARE = Apache/1.3.14 (OpenVMS) mod_perl/1.21 mod_ssl/2.7.1 OpenSSL/0.9.5a logical    SERVER_SOFTWARE = e    C UNIQUE_ID is non-blank only if Apache was built with MOD_UNIQUE_ID.s  & symbol UNIQUE_ID = PECA1MCoAcgAAANbUXw* symbol WWW_UNIQUE_ID = PECA1MCoAcgAAANbUXw logical    UNIQUE_ID = p      #                         - The End -e   <pre>i% $ define/NoLog SYS$INPUT APACHE$INPUTuD $ APACHE$DCL_ENV :== $apache$common:[000000]APACHE$DCL_ENV.exe_alpha $ APACHE$CGI_MODE = "1" - $  Define APACHE$PREFIX_DCL_CGI_SYMBOLS_WWW 1n@ $ write sys$output f$fao("!AS!/!/", "Content-type: text/plain")  $n# $ write sys$output f$fao("!AS!/", -1F                         "CGI test script (test-cgi-vms.com) report:")  $n $set verify: $  APACHE$DCL_ENV -d e $  APACHE$DCL_ENV -c   $  APACHE$DCL_ENV -l   $wait 00:00:01
 $set noverifyO) $ ! Test-CGI.Com   Lee Tibbert 1999-06-22w6 $ ! Print out the CGI variables available to a script.* $ ! See documentation at bottom of script. $ !d $ ! 2000-06-15  Rick Barry+ $ !     Rename APACHE_INPUT to APACHE$INPUT. $ !a
 $ set noon $s( $ hostName = f$trnlnm("TCPIP$INET_HOST") $ if "''hostName'" .nes. ""o $ thenB $    fullHostName = "''hostName'." + f$trnlnm("TCPIP$INET_DOMAIN") $ else  ! Fake its7 $    fullHostName = f$edit(f$getsyi("NODENAME"),"TRIM")h $ endif  $ @ $ write sys$output f$fao("!/Generated on host ''fullHostName' at !%D.!/", 0)  $   $ cwd = f$environment("DEFAULT")= $ write sys$output f$fao("Default directory is ''cwd'.!/!/") t $s $ apache_input := APACHE$INPUT+ $ write sys$output f$fao("!AS is !AS.!/", -.,                         "''apache_input'", -4                         f$trnlnm("''apache_input'")) $- $ apache_input := SYS$COMMAND + $ write sys$output f$fao("!AS is !AS.!/", -d,                         "''apache_input'", -4                         f$trnlnm("''apache_input'"))
 $set noverifygH $ write sys$output f$fao("For PUT methods in .COM scripts:!/!_!AS.!/!/", - G                 "$ define/NoLog SYS$INPUT APACHE$INPUT: ! early in .COMI file") $r $cnt = 1 $myloop: $ call printenv C'cnt' $ call printenv KEY'cnt'
 $ cnt = cnt+1r  $if cnt .gt. 14 then goto mymore
 $!goto myloopo $mymore: $d $ call printenv QUERY_STRING  $ call printenv WWW_QUERY_STRING $ call printenv DOCUMENT_ROOTd! $ call printenv GATEWAY_INTERFACEe $ call printenv HTTP_ACCEPTl# $ call printenv HTTP_ACCEPT_CHARSETa$ $ call printenv HTTP_ACCEPT_ENCODING$ $ call printenv HTTP_ACCEPT_LANGUAGE $ call printenv HTTP_CONNECTIONs $ call printenv HTTP_HOSTF $ call printenv HTTP_USER_AGENTc $ call printenv PATH $ call printenv REMOTE_ADDRh $ call printenv REMOTE_PORT  $ call printenv REQUEST_METHOD $ call printenv REQUEST_URIa $ call printenv SCRIPT_FILENAMEt $ call printenv SCRIPT_NAMEe $ call printenv SERVER_ADMIN $ call printenv SERVER_NAME  $ call printenv SERVER_PORTe $ call printenv SERVER_PROTOCOLF  $ call printenv SERVER_SIGNATURE   $ call printenv SERVER_SOFTWAREW% $ write sys$output f$fao("!/!AS!/", -t=         "UNIQUE_ID is non-blank only if Apache was built withe MOD_UNIQUE_ID.") $                        $ call printenv UNIQUE_ID  $o4 $ write sys$output f$fao("!2(/)!3(_)- The End -!/")  $ write sys$output "<pre>" $type monroe.com( $write sys$output "</pre></body></html>" $s $r $ exit $lM !____________________________________________________________________________i $ printenv:  subroutine  $  $  a $  symbolName := 'P1'  $s# $  if f$type('symbolName') .eqs. ""  $  then  $    symbolValue = ""o $  elser $    symbolValue = 'symbolName'h $  endif $nB $  write sys$output f$fao("symbol ''symbolName' = ''symbolValue'") $! $  symbolName := WWW_'P1'  $e# $  if f$type('symbolName') .eqs. ""- $  then  $    symbolValue = ""a $  elsen $    symbolValue = 'symbolName'a $  endif $2B $  write sys$output f$fao("symbol ''symbolName' = ''symbolValue'") $  $  logname = f$trnlnm("''P1'")< $  write sys$output f$fao("logical    ''P1' = ''logname'!/") $  exit< $ endsubroutine !printenvF $4M !____________________________________________________________________________w $ !:> $ ! This program shows that CGI variables are OpenVMS symbols.B $ ! It also shows how a final Carriage Return and Line Feed (CRLF) $ ! must be added to DCL lines.m $ !iH $ ! The output from most DCL commands does _not_ have this terminal CRLFE $ ! so adding such DCL commands to this script will break it.  Fixingo) $ ! this situation is a work in progress.i $ !hB $ ! This script is useful to check if CGI access has been properly= $ ! configured (in [apache.conf]httpd.conf). One can also use.> $ ! this script as in a ping to see if a server is responding. $ !p $ ! Modification History* $ ! 1999-06-30  Lee Tibbert         V1.0-1? $ !             Removed the 1.0 from the CGI string.  I believeeG $ !             that Apache is now using CGI 1.1.  The orignal .com was-B $ !             translated from the distribution test-cgi. and theB $ !             variables printed out do not match those passed inD $ !             envp to the test-cgi-vms.exe.  I changed the .com toG $ !             show the same variables as the .exe. Here I alphabetizea $ !             them.  $ !=E $ !             Added printout of default (current) directory to help=  $ !             me get it right. $e $ ! End of fileo </pre></body></html>       -- l   Regards,   Michael Austin7 First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.comT President/Sr. DBA Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office): 704-236-4377 (Mobile)i   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 15:36:11 +0100n1 From: "Frederik Meerwaldt" <frederik@freddym.org>r' Subject: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMSo4 Message-ID: <20020112.153611.12457.1544@freddym.org>   Hi all,d  A I want to add a Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (1000BaseSX) to my Alpha G Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS 7.2-1 (I would upgrade,rD too, if neccessary). I just have problems finding out which NICs areG supported. I have a Syskonnect SK-9843 over here, which I suppose won'thJ work. Then I got a good offer about a Compaq NC6134, which is a 64-Bit PCI 1000BaseSX Ethernet Controller..  F Is one of the above controllers supported? If no, can anyone tell me a< Gigabit Ethernet Controller which works with OpenVMS/alpha ?   Many many thanks in advance, 	Freddy Meerwaldtr   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 10:16:18 -0500a0 From: "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com>+ Subject: Re: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMSm/ Message-ID: <u40k9ph8v22e6e@news.supernews.com>g  0 You need a DEGPA-SA (Fiber) or DEGPA-TA (copper)   We sell both   Davide   -- David Turner   We sell Alpha systems & parts  http://www.islandco.com  sales@islandco.com Island Computers US Corp.i 2700 Gregory Streete Savannah GA 31404r Tel: 912 447 6622l Fax: 912 201 0096E: Frederik Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org> wrote in message. news:20020112.153611.12457.1544@freddym.org...	 > Hi all,  >aC > I want to add a Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (1000BaseSX) to my AlphasI > Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS 7.2-1 (I would upgrade,eF > too, if neccessary). I just have problems finding out which NICs areI > supported. I have a Syskonnect SK-9843 over here, which I suppose won'tzL > work. Then I got a good offer about a Compaq NC6134, which is a 64-Bit PCI! > 1000BaseSX Ethernet Controller.o >nH > Is one of the above controllers supported? If no, can anyone tell me a> > Gigabit Ethernet Controller which works with OpenVMS/alpha ? >b > Many many thanks in advance, > Freddy Meerwaldt   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 10:17:07 -0500 0 From: "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com>+ Subject: Re: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMSi/ Message-ID: <u40kbbaqcmse8f@news.supernews.com>e  7 Forgot to mention - AFAIK, these are not bootable cardsa   DT   -- David Turner   We sell Alpha systems & partsu http://www.islandco.comm sales@islandco.com Island Computers US Corp.o 2700 Gregory Street- Savannah GA 31404- Tel: 912 447 6622, Fax: 912 201 00961: Frederik Meerwaldt <frederik@freddym.org> wrote in message. news:20020112.153611.12457.1544@freddym.org...	 > Hi all,- > C > I want to add a Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (1000BaseSX) to my AlphaeI > Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS 7.2-1 (I would upgrade, F > too, if neccessary). I just have problems finding out which NICs areI > supported. I have a Syskonnect SK-9843 over here, which I suppose won't L > work. Then I got a good offer about a Compaq NC6134, which is a 64-Bit PCI! > 1000BaseSX Ethernet Controller.g >oH > Is one of the above controllers supported? If no, can anyone tell me a> > Gigabit Ethernet Controller which works with OpenVMS/alpha ? >d > Many many thanks in advance, > Freddy Meerwaldt   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:21:37 +0100a1 From: "Frederik Meerwaldt" <frederik@freddym.org>o+ Subject: Re: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMS 3 Message-ID: <20020112.162137.2235.1621@freddym.org>W  B In article <u40k9ph8v22e6e@news.supernews.com>, "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote:  2 > You need a DEGPA-SA (Fiber) or DEGPA-TA (copper)  E I wanted to know whether the NC6131 (Compaq) Controller is supported.e@ And if not, I'd like to know which _third party_ controllers are
 supported.   Greetings and TIA - Freddy   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 10:39:42 -0500e+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>o+ Subject: RE: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMSeT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B7B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Freddy,M  2 re: what types of GBe are supported on a XP1000 ..  C As a fyi, you can access the latest quick spec's for the XP1000 at: 6 http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/workstations/xp1000/   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior ConsultantC Compaq Canada Corp.e Professional ServicesA Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----6 From: Frederik Meerwaldt [mailto:frederik@freddym.org] Sent: January 12, 2002 9:36 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr' Subject: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMS      Hi all,   A I want to add a Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (1000BaseSX) to my AlphaIG Professional Workstation XP1000 running OpenVMS 7.2-1 (I would upgrade,iD too, if neccessary). I just have problems finding out which NICs areG supported. I have a Syskonnect SK-9843 over here, which I suppose won't F work. Then I got a good offer about a Compaq NC6134, which is a 64-Bit PCI  1000BaseSX Ethernet Controller.4  F Is one of the above controllers supported? If no, can anyone tell me a< Gigabit Ethernet Controller which works with OpenVMS/alpha ?   Many many thanks in advance, 	Freddy Meerwaldt    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:34:23 +0100n1 From: "Frederik Meerwaldt" <frederik@freddym.org>u+ Subject: Re: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMSf4 Message-ID: <20020112.163423.21461.1749@freddym.org>  G > I wanted to know whether the NC6131 (Compaq) Controller is supported.r   I mean NC6134 - sorry :)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 17:48:50 +0100a1 From: "Frederik Meerwaldt" <frederik@freddym.org>n+ Subject: RE: GigaBit NIC Support in OpenVMSo4 Message-ID: <20020112.174849.27685.1815@freddym.org>  	 Hi Kerry,   
 In articleI <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B7B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, , "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote:  E > As a fyi, you can access the latest quick spec's for the XP1000 at:W8 > http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/workstations/xp1000/  > I already read this documentation, but I wanted to know if theB Compaq NC6134 NIC works with VMS, and if the answer is "no", which  third party GBIC works with VMS.   Thanks in advance, 	Freddy,   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 21:54:26 +1300G From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz>C: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <8OS%7.1686$Qz1.209009@news.xtra.co.nz>"  : "Adam Price" <adam+usenet@pappnase.co.uk> wrote in message= news:FFG%7.17927$1s6.2583536@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...[ >cA > "Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in message % news:3C3EA01D.7B7D19D1@mediasec.de...cH > > Is there actually an alive human language where case differences (if	 they haveDK > > the concept of case at all) routinely connote semantic differences? Howc many$ > > speakers do such languages have? > >_E > > I do not consider English, for instance, to belong in this class,P > > the Lord notwithstanding.R > >O5 > In English polish to shine or Polish From Poland orsC >            reading and Reading both of which are instances of the K > change in capitalisation showing a change in meanining and pronunciation.  >W  I Will you please try to give the original author the benefit of the doubt?  pls:)-H I'm sure the (flogging the dead horse) example of [P/p]olish is known to$ practically everyone in this thread.' The question was - how routine that is?1L As an aside, even in that particular case, how much confusion would it causeH if someone, inadverntenly, misspelled the word with a wrong case? ExceptK for some very specially constructed sentences, that's not likely to happen. F Guesstimate the percentage of any uses of that word that could be evenF vaguely ambiguous? And what about the frequency of that word used in a- programming language, at all? Or file system? 7 That's exactly what the question about "routine" meant.N   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jan 2002 09:09:35 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)W: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-Ed8rHtxXqSC6@localhost>E  A On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 17:02:34, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) Y wrote:  7 > In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-kwut9qKrn4yF@localhost>,i0 > Dave Weatherall <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote:I > >Well why name's Weatherall, VMS calls me 'WEATHERALL' and Solaris (or e+ > >our setup thereof) insists on 'weather'.b > B > I think you're mixing up login name and file names. I see you're > djweath as well... >   F Point taken, however, what I was getting at (badly) was that we nearly? all of us accept compromises or when dealing with computers or EF computing systems. The machines have rules, e.g. parsing, to make the F systems usable and we have to work within the rules. Names (files and 7 user)  are a good example of this, as you pointed out. s  F Another example, my email address at work is David.Weatherall@ and notF David Weatherall@ because parsing rules for Intenet address names (I'mC led to believe and haven't read an RFC on this subject for over 10 EC years) don't accept spaces. It's a rule that makes the system work.    -- P Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jan 2002 09:09:36 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)_: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-w0p5Ecv0yTtG@localhost>o   <VERY Big Snip>T  D Hang on guys, what are we discussing, the vaguaries of languages or # case-sensitivity in file-specs? <g>l  F We're apparently in three computing goups so I presume the latter. The3 first thing to do is define what a filename/spec is=     a.  an idenfifiero   b.  documentaion   c.  programming aidc
   d   ....  F To me its primarily an identifier. It can be more or less meaningful. E It is not a thesis and, therefore, whether I'm concerned with polish PF sausage, speaking Polish, guitar polish or even a new brand of guitar B polish or other product called Polish, the context of my filename A P^hpolish.txt is known to me. It's slightly more meaningful than RA TEMP.TXT or x.x or even z  or even (on VMS) .;1 but it's still a y contextual thing.8  F I suspect the same principle would apply if I were russian and typing F in cyrillic but I have no experience in non-latin character languages  so I don't really know.   D The argument w.r.t. case sensitivity in non-latin character sets is F valid and not one I had considered until JD mentioned it. However, I'dE be curious to know whether this was the reason for the decision back oC when UNIX was being created or whether it's just a making a useful 4D argument after the fact. (I can not for the life of me think of the ? english expression I want to use here - my vocabulary is being .  affected by 20 years in Germany)   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 22:34:01 +1300y From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz>A: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <fnT%7.1697$Qz1.210340@news.xtra.co.nz>   : "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message/ news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-w0p5Ecv0yTtG@localhost...L > <VERY Big Snip>P >EG > To me its primarily an identifier. It can be more or less meaningful. F > It is not a thesis and, therefore, whether I'm concerned with polish	 > sausagef  I A very good example ... Personally, I would spell it as 'P'olish sausage,eA but I sure understood what you meant, and you would understand meNK if I used the capital 'P' in front... but the Unix and other case sensitiveC things would not.9   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 12 Jan 02 10:01:49 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.com : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1p93d$pdl$1@bob.news.rcn.net>o  2 In article <a1nfl6$252e$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>,,    peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:- >In article <3C3F2C31.DCBDD723@jetnet.ab.ca>,O. >Ben Franchuk  <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: >>Peter da Silva wrote:" >>> >He also seems to thinkrA >>> >that a filesystem design can be completely divorced from the/& >>> >hardware the system was built on. >) >>> Pretty much, yes.f >"? >>I got a DEC tape here... How do I make this '/' for linux? :)E >PH >I've booted RSX-11 on a DECtape. I don't see how it would be any harder >to boot 2.11BSD on it.  > D >>Right now all disk hardware assumes 8 bits is a byte and all mediaA >>is blocks of 2^n. That is a bit of a pain for me as am building 8 >>a 12 bit computer. Do I go 8 bits or 12 bits for data? >$E >Try them both. I mean, there's no reason you can't go with 336 wordsoK >to a block, packed 2 words to 3 octets. Or 288 words if you want the blockoJ >size to be a multiple of 12, that would only waste 5/27th of the space... >a little over 1/6th.' > 	 >>What ifn< >>I had a replica of a computer that uses a magnetic drum as >>main memory.@ >>I say no! file system and computer hardware are tied together. >_G >I didn't say they should be completely divorced, I said they could be.e > ; Then you're talking about a higher level application.  JustE: because we're running OSes as apps does not imply that the7 filesystem of a _system_ is separate from the hardware.a< When JD is talking about a filesystem, he is really thinking; about a data base.  There's a huge difference.  If one usesn: arguments that make sense at the data base level to change5 underlying OS philosophy, we're in a mess.  The OS isa9 constrained by the hardware it runs on, not the other waya around.n   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.l   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 12 Jan 02 10:15:45 GMTp From: jmfbahciv@aol.com : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1p9th$pdl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>O  2 In article <a1ne4j$240q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>,,    peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: >In article @ <francini1026-ya02408000R1001020302190001@news.ne.mediaone.net>,. >John J Francini <francini1026@mac.com> wrote:H >>Suppose someone -- a financial analyst -- works on a spreadsheet file  named_K >>"April Sales Data" on MacOS X, which is UNIX under the hood, but uses the$K >>HFS+ filesystem as the default. (It also has UFS available as an option.)  >>K >>He saves it to disk.  He then later makes a word-processing document thatyB >>references that spreadsheet (using Microsoft-like object linkingK >>facilities), and, instead of using a GUI-oriented file selector, he typesnF >>the filename in directly.  He makes an error typing it in -- enters  "april >>sales data" instead. >lI >That's a user-interface problem. The user interface should at this pointgI >provide a list of file names that may match the one he entered and allow_J >him to select one. That would also deal with the situation where one nameB >was "may sales forecast" and the other was "may sales forecasts". > ' >A file system is not a user interface.t  < Exactly.  So why should it "know" the local spoken language.   > H >>Writing C (or its descendents), on the other hand, subjects you to theD >>tyranny. Perish forbid that you might forget that, say, the OpenGLJ >>"glTexImage3D()" routine begins with a lower-case "gl", and you code it  asI >>"GLTexImage3D()".  The linker will say "Duh?  I can't find that routineo
 >>anywhere!".s >s/ >No routine should ever be called glTexImage3D.e  @ The only way you can prevent that is to have a strict enforcable> rule about case.  Kids will always try to be different because they think it's cool.  e   <snip>   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.l   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 12 Jan 02 10:27:24 GMTa From: jmfbahciv@aol.coma: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1pajb$pdl$3@bob.news.rcn.net>d  2 In article <G3I%7.210$vb1.35662@news1.iquest.net>,!    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:  > K ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1mfaq$qb7$3@bob.news.rcn.net...i5 >> In article <7Up%7.167$vb1.27100@news1.iquest.net>, $ >>    "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote:	 >> <snip>l >> e> >> >Again:  FILENAMES aren't necessarily English proper names. >> b9 >> They never were.  Just about everything we shipped wasf@ >> an acronym or a description of the _function_ of the program. >> e4 >Or even a date.   On real (current) systems, it is  >easy to use a short formatted: >text identification, that includes some descriptive info.  7 The point of a filename is to give the operating systemt9 a method of distingishing its contents from another file. 9 The purpose of a filename is NOT to document the contentsu8 exhaustively.  Thus a filename is chosen in terms of the6 computing biz, not the spoken language.  I do not want2 to have to take a glance at a list of files on the5 system and have to make sure that I'm using the exact 8 font as the writer of the data used.  If I have to worry; about that, then the font had better be an attribute stored  with other file information.   /BAH     /BAH  S  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.F   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jan 2002 06:33:29 -0600 From: rivie@cougar.no.domain: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC3 Message-ID: <slrna40bsl.5v1.rivie@cougar.no.domain>2  D In article <a1p9th$pdl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:4 > In article <a1ne4j$240q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>,. >    peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:( >>A file system is not a user interface. > > > Exactly.  So why should it "know" the local spoken language.  H OK, now you folks will have to explain to me why files should have names in the first place.0  F The file system is not a user interface. It should access all files byB inode number. The filenames are a user interface problem; the userE interface is responsible for accepting appropriate filenames from theeH user and turning them into inode numbers for the filesystem. This allows= filenames to include anything, even /, when it's appropriate.  --  
 Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu     > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----A http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > -----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:15:02 -0700 + From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca>1: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C3F9C26.A39DF9A8@jetnet.ab.ca>   Dave Weatherall wrote: >  > <VERY Big Snip>s > E > Hang on guys, what are we discussing, the vaguaries of languages ora% > case-sensitivity in file-specs? <g>l > H > We're apparently in three computing goups so I presume the latter. The5 > first thing to do is define what a filename/spec is0 >  >   a.  an idenfifier: >   b.  documentaion >   c.  programming aide >   d   .... > G > To me its primarily an identifier. It can be more or less meaningful. F > It is not a thesis and, therefore, whether I'm concerned with polishG > sausage, speaking Polish, guitar polish or even a new brand of guitar C > polish or other product called Polish, the context of my filenameeB > P^hpolish.txt is known to me. It's slightly more meaningful thanB > TEMP.TXT or x.x or even z  or even (on VMS) .;1 but it's still a > contextual thing.     What about reverse polish. :) oC  Most OS's still have problems with CR & LF let alone what language H you are using on the computer. But it still is the user's responsibility1 to how portable something is not the file system. ; On a personal level I think Linux/Unix/Windows is the wrong:B way for a OS for computers to go. You build the hardware, then the software@ and the user interface at the last movement. I think a interface standardD is needed with a new OS model, because in being backwards compatibleA computers can't progress forward. Any body got ideas for portable 
 interface? Can it handle klingon too?   -- w% Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu * + www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.htmlw   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 19:25:19 -0700y+ From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca>a: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C3F9E8F.88449691@jetnet.ab.ca>   rivie@cougar.no.domain wrote:5  H > The file system is not a user interface. It should access all files byD > inode number. The filenames are a user interface problem; the userG > interface is responsible for accepting appropriate filenames from thecJ > user and turning them into inode numbers for the filesystem. This allows? > filenames to include anything, even /, when it's appropriate.:  < The OS does it because of security reasons tied in with file creation/accessiH /deletion. HURD I think how ever is a OS more that direction. BTW inodes are G a unix style of file system, block access is needed if you want to haveC your own file system.   -- l% Ben Franchuk - Dawn * 12/24 bit cpu *A+ www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.htmll   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 17:57:14 GMTc* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECC Message-ID: <_N_%7.243287$m05.20780066@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>p  ( "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com> wrote in message, news:jyI%7.217$vb1.35482@news1.iquest.net...   ...o  E > Any reason to do case folding is a roman/English centric provincial 	 > design.   K An interesting statement in that it certainly *appears* to suggest that for-A roman/English at least there *is* some reason to do case-folding.n  J If for that, why not for other cased languages?  Too hard?  That's not the issue.  J No matter what anyone here may believe, I suspect you'd better be preparedK to accept at a fait accompli the case-insensitivity in file names that most6L of the world (except Unix) has standardized upon:  in particular, unless youH can get rid of Windows there's no chance in hell that this standard will change.B   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 18:09:32 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC@ Message-ID: <wZ_%7.25368$jc.1474973@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  J <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1pajb$pdl$3@bob.news.rcn.net...   ...e  9 > The point of a filename is to give the operating systemb; > a method of distingishing its contents from another file.   B Not in any system I've ever worked with/on:  they've all had 'fileD identifiers' (typically binary offsets into some kind of 'inode'-ishD array/'Index' file) for that purpose (though admittedly MS-DOS/Win9x- effectively just have a start-block address).   K And several of these systems have had mechanisms that allowed a single filedG to be addressed by multiple names ('hard', as distinct from 'symbolic',n links).s  ; > The purpose of a filename is NOT to document the contents@ > exhaustively.e  E No, but it is (usually) meant to be significant to humans in at leastl' superficially documenting the contents.e  +   Thus a filename is chosen in terms of the ) > computing biz, not the spoken language.c  K On any system intended to be used by non-programmers (the only kind of fileeC system I'm particularly interested in these days) that is not true.i     I do not want 4 > to have to take a glance at a list of files on the7 > system and have to make sure that I'm using the exacta: > font as the writer of the data used.  If I have to worry= > about that, then the font had better be an attribute storedv > with other file information.   On that we agree.:   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 18:20:51 GMTi* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC@ Message-ID: <78%%7.25451$jc.1483765@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  5 "Peter da Silva" <peter@taronga.com> wrote in messageo, news:a1nnsq$29al$1@citadel.in.taronga.com...D > In article <mzH%7.615288$8q.49706979@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,+ > Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:uL > >That might be nice, but in all probability cannot be accomplished without anL > >exhaustive scan of all files in the current directory (if a full filespecH > >wasn't entered:  otherwise, since some directory name could also have beenK > >distorted, you must scan all files on the entire system).  So it's oftenh notn > >a feasible solution.D >DI > And this is somehow more processor-intensive than handling full UnicodeeF > case conversion rules and locale management at the filesystem level?  J Absolutely.  Efficient case- (and character-synonym-) insensitive look-upsK can be performed by storing names in a canonical form for look-up (plus theeL original form for presentation, though various compression techniques can beK applied to reduce the space overhead of this duplication if it's sufficientaL to worry about), converting the input name to that canonical form, and using6 normal binary comparisons on, e.g., b-tree structures.   > F > >But since users are arguably the most important clients of the file system,w< > >it needs to accommodate the needs of that user interface. >gJ > It can best do that by reliably and consistently responding to requests.  J 'Consistency' is in the eye of the beholder.  I strongly suspect that mostG people (certainly most non-programmers) outside the Unix world considerC case-sensitivity inconsistent.  D Reliability is not at issue, since any implementation should produceJ repeatable results.  If by 'reliability' you mean that you consider that aJ system with simple but strongly counter-intuitive rules is preferable to aF system with simple, intuitive rules but (perhaps, if unavoidable) rare6 counter-intuitive exceptions, then we simply disagree.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 18:38:38 GMTi* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DECB Message-ID: <Oo%%7.452986$C8.32977630@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  ) <rivie@cougar.no.domain> wrote in message - news:slrna40bsl.5v1.rivie@cougar.no.domain...I   ...e  J > OK, now you folks will have to explain to me why files should have names > in the first place.a >gH > The file system is not a user interface. It should access all files byD > inode number. The filenames are a user interface problem; the userG > interface is responsible for accepting appropriate filenames from the J > user and turning them into inode numbers for the filesystem. This allows? > filenames to include anything, even /, when it's appropriate.n  H Most modern file systems include the directory structure (which is whereK name/inode relationships are maintained) as part of the file system, rather K than simply present a 'bag' of containers (with binary IDs) directly to the L user interface.  The directory structure is often pretty strictly layered onH top of the underlying 'container' support, but is so pervasively used byK applications (whether GUIs, utilities, or purpose-built) that separating itl" out somewhere else would be silly.  D One could liken the situation to that of RMS, which imposes a commonE structure on data that allows this data to be used (even concurrently0G shared) by many different applications.  Without RMS, every applicationoG would have to agree with others on the lowest-level format of data (and.L conventions for accessing it concurrently) in order to share it; without theD directory structure, every application would have to agree on namingK conventions for files (and conventions for handling shared-update access tooK that name structure) in order to share them (at other than inode-ID level).   D In other words, things like RMS and directory structures are neitherJ strictly fundamental (bytes in files, containers on a volume) nor strictlyI user-interface in nature:  their logical habitat is somewhere between then two.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:16:55 +0100m4 From: Martin Heller <martin.heller@whoa.mheller.org>Y Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC - NTFS IS NOT CASE INSENSITIVEf/ Message-ID: <3C405367.9070606@whoa.mheller.org>n  	 JD wrote:   Y > <rivie@cougar.no.domain> wrote in message news:slrna3uj6t.4ts.rivie@cougar.no.domain...e > J >>In article <a1nef4$249t$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, Peter da Silva wrote: >>K >>>In the file system? That's putting a heck of a lot of code into a common K >>>path for operations that are supposed to be fast. Have you looked at the.$ >>>Unicode conversion tables lately? >>>P >>Aha! The truth will out! >>H >>I've always suspected that the only reason Unix was case-sensitive wasI >>that someone was too lazy to do a case-insensitive compare in the firstbJ >>versions and, rather than fixing the problem, invented a rationalization0 >>to make it appear to be The Right Thing To Do. >> >>M > The amazing thing is that 'good' UNIX OSes can implement case insensitivityeT > in the filesystem code.   For reverse compatibility with NTFS-like filesystems, it% > is easy to add (and has been done.)     2 NTFS is not case insensitive -it's case sensitive.G It's case insensiitvity is a (typical MS) kludge opon NTFS by the WIN32>C subsystem of the NT kernel (legacy reasons). Case insensitivity hasI; nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the NTFS filesystem.oG Unix OSes witch implement case-insensitivity for NTFS are violating theEF NTFS spec. per se ...  but they are supporting the expected filesystem% behaviour of nearly all applications.d    O > Case folding during comparisons just isn't desirable to do, except for legacysP > reasons.   Any reason to do case folding is a roman/English centric provincial	 > design.l >  > John  	 M. Heller    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 08:45:11 -0500n+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> > Subject: RE: How many Fibre Channel - Multiple Hosts/4 FabricsT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B79@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  ? re: multiple sites fabrics and how much redundancy is enough ..t  E Well, the tragic events of last Sept have introduced a relatively newaA consideration with respect to redundancy and business continuity.   F Many sites used to feel 2 sites were enough to meet their data storageC and processing requirements. However, when a significant event doesiG occur where one of the sites is taken offline and there is no chance ofoH it coming back (or at the least not for many months), then that Cust can, continue to run at their other site for now.  H However, as Keith mentioned, the question then becomes "how long are you7 willing to run your business in a single site mode?"=20M  H For sites that depend on vendor provided disaster tolerant backup sites,D running your business with the additional $15K/$20K per day (typical( charges) gets real expensive real quick.  D If you have to go out and start negotiating for a new secondary siteF that falls into the radius of the technology limitations (availabilityB of appropriate links), build a new datacenter, do the planning andD testing, you could be looking at having to spend 6 months running in single site mode. =20s  E Keep in mind that when a significant event occurs that is widespread,.D then there are many other Cust's that will be competing for the same  datacenter backup space as well.  . The costs and business exposure could be huge.  G So, fwiw, as more bandwidth becomes cheaper (and the net providers likeeD Cisco are looking for app's that use serious bandwidth), I suspect 3= full site designs will start to get more seriously looked at.n   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantl Compaq Canada Corp.  Professional Servicese Voice: 613-592-4660a Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----B From: David McKenzie [mailto:david.mckenzie@spitfire0.demon.co.uk] Sent: January 11, 2002 4:43 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma> Subject: Re: How many Fibre Channel - Multiple Hosts/4 Fabrics    	 Hi Keith,i  F I think some of these four fabric configurations are more possible now duenB to WDM. This means that you would still want two links between the sites,E but if they are dark fibre, you can multiplex many channels down eacha pipe.@  H My experience to dat however in the UK is that the cost of WDM equipment isC close the the cost of a link. In the US that may be very different.E  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0201102041.5fccf96b@posting.google.com...o4 > "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii@mail.com> wrote in message$ news:<3C3DD4C5.4D81B376@mail.com>...2 > > Any guestimates as to about how many of these: > >tH > > Configuring Fibre Channel as an OpenVMS Cluster Storage Interconnect$ > > Multiple Hosts With Four Fabrics > > H http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/fibre/doc/6318pro_003.html#mult_ho sts_ four_fabrics_f > >e > > are in existence?s >eF > All the high-availability FC-based clusters I've had any involvementF > with use just two independent FC fabrics.  Perhaps that's due to theF > present situation where FC net gear still seems relatively expensiveB > compared with, for example, GbE.  (And since I tend to work withE > disaster-tolerant clusters, the cost of additional inter-site linkstH > can be an even bigger consideration, especially when you consider thatD > you need redundant SCS-capable inter-site links in addition to the > redundant FC links.) > F > Triple redundancy would allow retaining the protection of redundancyH > while a failure is being repaired.  (I've seen a case where one of twoG > inter-site cluster links was down for 6 days straight.  That's a longe- > time to depend on the sole surviving link.)e >a> > You might think quadruple redundancy is a bit much, but manyC > disaster-tolerant clusters have 4 physical disks for every disk'soE > worth of data (a 2-member shadowset of 2-member mirrorsets, so thattH > you still have protection against a disk failure even after a disaster' > that destroys one entire datacenter).a > E > Another very logical reason for four FC fabrics might be bandwidth.cC > Although FC provides a theoretical bandwidth of 100 megabytes peroF > second, I can easily imagine some applications which might need four% > times that bandwidth, or even more. A > ---------------------------------------------------------------,A > Keith Parris | parris at encompasserve dot org | Consulting on:e@ > Clusters, Disaster Tolerance, Performance, I/O, Storage & SANs   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 08:14:45 -0500,+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>h9 Subject: RE: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsnT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1B78@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   JF -  * >>> My PDA can do that, so can DECterm.<<<  C How can you do this when VMS is not running i.e. at >>> prompt? Andn still keep a logfile?   F Comes in handy when you want to review what the >>> SHOW DEVICE or >>>H SHOW CONFIG command output was. Also, for determining error messages etcG on boot that offur before DECterm is available or what exactly did that - repair person do before rebooting the system..  G >>> if you have accessto VMS, don't you have access to that stuff ? <<<w  G With ConsoleWorks, you can be right at the console of the Cisco router, B switch etc. Also if a Router / HSG80 suddenly reboots - how do youC determine if there were any prior messages or errors that occurred?s  F >>> this can be done as a detached process on VMS. Much more reliable. <<<;  = As before, no control or log file when VMS is not running.=20o  B Also, for those with multi-platforms, that shop would also have toH figure out how to do the same thing you are proposing for whatever Tru64B UNIX, HP-UX, Solaris, AIX, systems or Cisco router (pick favourite+ network device) they might have as well.=20   ? Anyway, there are oviously many ways to accomplish a particulareA objective. There are always going to be pro's and con's with eachI solution chosen.=20t  H If you want to do all of the work to manually put the processes in placeG to accomplish some basic capabilities then that is great - you can savee some $'s.=20  G However, if you want a bit more elegant solution that is multi-platformeE (All systems, controllers, network devices), is officially supported,-G and are willing to pay some $'s, then a COTS solution like ConsoleWorks@> (or others that are available) is a good solution to consider.   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantt Compaq Canada Corp.o Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660s Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----, From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei@videotron.ca] Sent: January 11, 2002 10:13 PMg To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsl     "Main, Kerry" wrote: > Ahhh, but can a VT terminal: >=20F > - keep a log file of all console activity (normal and console typingA > activity) for later review and/or backups for security reasons?i  # My PDA can do that, so can DECterm.   D > - keep a log file for later review  of non-system console activity suchG > as HSC/J/G's disk controllers, network controllers (Cisco, etc) - any # > device that uses an asci console?x  ? if you have accessto VMS, don't you have access to that stuff ?1  F > - monitor console messages and send email/page someone if a selected > event message occurs?w  B this can be done as a detached process on VMS. Much more reliable.  D > - allow a system manager to remotely gain access (via a variety ofH > secure measures) to the ">>>" console prompt from a hotel room or from/ > home? This is great when installing software.i  C The disaster tolerant cluster I had built with decsercver access toe OPA0:sH allowed exactly that with passwrod protection (and gaining dialup access to' the decservers required authenticator).g  E Furthermore, you are talking to someone who has rebooted a machine inb MontrealH from a payphone in Townsville australia with a PDA and accoustic coupler andt no fancy software.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jan 2002 09:09:37 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)e- Subject: Re: Multithreading within a process. 5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-pCMuETEwb6yE@localhost>   E On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:00:59, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) s wrote:  m > In article <8b9b6926.0201080707.1bbbb3@posting.google.com>, adrianxwdeletethis@hotmail.com (Adrian) writes:g > G > > I am returning to VMS after a long absence programming NT4 systems..I > > Having searched google and browsed numerous FAQ's, I have yet to findsF > > any keywords to search for, (or links), which will answer a ratherE > > general question. (I can't even look at the system manuals as theiD > > system hasn't been delivered yet!). Can I safely assume that theI > > current version of VMS supports multi threading within a process, (as  > > with NT/2000 etc.)?d > F > For a single processor system, this capability was introduced on VAXF > with VMS V4.2 support for Ada.  The Alpha systems support DECthreadsL > which is used directly by C programmers and indirectly by Ada programmers.1 > On VAX, DECthreads supports only C programmers.l  C Hey Larry please don't tell my DECthreaded Fortran (VAX and Alpha) e programs that :-)e   -- h Cheers - Dave.  E PS. To be fair I do use the CMA interface and not the Posix one. The nD Posix one definitely is more C oriented and the Exception method of D handling errors doesn't sit so well with Fortran or the traditional - VMS method of returning and checking status..l   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 12:57:18 +0100n2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)/ Subject: Re: question about TCPIP cluster alias ; Message-ID: <3c40249e.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>t  : Phillip Helbig (HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com) wrote:F > With a TCPIP cluster alias, do the addresses other than the generic E > address have to be routable addresses, or can they be non-routable n > addresses?  H IMHO, it *should* be possible to solely address the node(s) by the alias( address. But don't take my word on that.  C > This reminds me that I should repeat my request for INTRODUCTORY 2J > VMS-specific TCPIP how-to documentation.  There are generally available E > TCPIP how-to books (O'Reilly etc), but these usually assume a unix  H > and/or Windows environment.  On the other hand, the documentation for H > Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS usually assumes that one knows the  > basics of TCP/IP.s >aF > I want to avoid learning the basics in another paradigm first, then G > having to translate that paradigm to VMS (OK, /etc/hosts corresponds  % > to...), then learn the VMS details.f > J > I know enough to configure my home cluster so that its IP connection to J > the outside world works (with the ISP knowing nothing at all about VMS, J > just providing a connection up to an ISDN router, which is connected to K > my LAN on the other side), but would like to delve more into this area.  eH > In particular, I would like to learn enough about DNS so that I could J > manage my own DNS information (with my DNS server talking to a slave at F > the ISP, perhaps) rather than have to rely on the ISP to update his 4 > records manually whenever I have a change request.  E Especially in the field of DNS, even Compaq TCP/IP goes with the text H file approach (as far as the zone files go). So your best best is indeedE the (mostly *ix based) DNS bible (Albitz & Liu: DNS and BIND, 3rd ed,eH O'Reilly, ISBN 1-56592-512-2 [there a 4th edition out, but it'll be some1 time until BIND v9 hit the VMS TCP/IP products]).i   cu,t   Martin -- lF   OpenVMS:                | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3    The operating system   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deiF    God runs the           |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/:    earth simulation on.   | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 08:11:00 -0700s4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dR8 Message-ID: <0cuv3usbjoufmcrl1squ43ue93l35vacbe@4ax.com>  1 On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 10:08:00 +0000, Christian Bau.+ <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:s   >Peter da Silva wrote: >> @7 >> In article <3C3A48C8.55A959E3@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>,h= >> Christian Bau  <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:tH >> > Contextual menus are usually activated by pressing the Control key. >> iF >> This is so much more straightforward than pressing the menu button. >rG >Look, my post was motivated by someone's nonsense claim that MacOS has H >no context sensitive menus. I refuted that nonsense, you are not adding >anything further. c >eM >> > There is one situation where "contextual menu by waiting" is beneficial:tJ >> > Use a web browser. Click on a link. Realise just before releasing theB >> > mouse button that you want to open that link in a new window. >> cK >> ... move the mouse half an inch, off the link. Release the select buttons; >> and click on the link again with the right mouse button.r >>  ; >> > happens, something that is impossible using a PC mouseo >> h >> Um, I just *did* it.  >pF >You didn't read what I posted. I started an action (mouse click) thenD >modified it after starting it without cancelling it. You started anH >action, cancelled it, then started another action. Different thing. NowD >if you tell me that you can change behaviour of a mouse click as inG >(press left button, change your mind, press right button, release left % >button) that is something different.l  @ I did the exact same presses, then I also had to press the right= button again, to switch from left button menu to right buttona menu on MS Win.   9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canadar -- oF Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov 						spam traps   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 12:23:13 -0500e% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>j) Subject: SYS$SETAST while inside an AST ?r, Message-ID: <3C4070F8.63C7C8CB@videotron.ca>  L I just realised that I am about to be calling some subroutine from inside anL AST and that subroutine calls SYS$SETAST(off) when it starts and $SETAST(on) at the end.e  L Just as a sanity check, if a routine in AST mode does that, will it stop theM CPU dead in its tracks in a deadlock that can only be resolved with an atomicpN bomb, or will it just do absolutely nothing since while one AST is running, noI other can be delivered and $SETAST only deals with delivery of ASTs , notu their execution ?l   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 12:52:38 -0500a* From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>- Subject: Re: SYS$SETAST while inside an AST ?t/ Message-ID: <3C403196.16355.1F44AB1A@localhost>h  ) On 12 Jan 2002, at 12:23, JF Mezei wrote:hN > I just realised that I am about to be calling some subroutine from inside anN > AST and that subroutine calls SYS$SETAST(off) when it starts and $SETAST(on)
 > at the end.   F Actually, this is a poor practice.  The subroutine should capture the F return code from the first SYS$SETAST, and only turn AST's back on if  they were on originally.  G > will it just do absolutely nothing since while one AST is running, no K > other can be delivered and $SETAST only deals with delivery of ASTs , notN > their execution ?E   Right.      
 --Stan Quaylee! President, Quayle Consulting Inc.y  
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671t1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147n= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.comr   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:31:50 GMT- From: 1076366@charter.net  Subject: vax vms ingres coboli0 Message-ID: <3c4064eb.10485257@news.charter.net>   1076366@charter.net      To whom it may concern:s    ? I am searching for a position that would allow me to utilize myp+ computer programming skills and experience.h  4 OR - a Junior position as a Visual Basic programmer.    D Over the past 20 years, I have accumulated experience in COBOL, VAX,B Ingres, SQL, and am presently gaining a working knowledge of JAVA,B XML, and Visual Basic.  I welcome the opportunity to work for yourF company, and to be able to continue my ongoing education of new skills! in order to benefit your company.r    C Please review the enclosed information and if you have questions or E need additional information, I can be reached at 1076366@charter.net.e< I would certainly appreciate an opportunity to meet with you< personally to discuss how I can be an asset to your company.    C Thank you for your consideration and I look forward to hearing fromi you.    
 Sincerely,       Jerrold Schiff 1076366@charter.net    ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 11:26:30 +0000 (UTC)t9 From: Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no>h' Subject: vms emacs: last call? the end?v- Message-ID: <a1p6h5$f3c$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>d   Hi  H It seems that the emacs people are trying to decide whether to eliminate; the VMS conditionals. (Got a mail from Stallman himself...)a  2 So, Schenkenberger, Spinler and others interested:  J Have you gotten anywhere with you own stuff, or with the stuff I provided?   Regards, Roar Throns  A (To bring EMACS to VMS, or VMS to EMACS, that is a good question)r   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 13:12:29 GMTn= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-) + Subject: Re: vms emacs: last call? the end?e0 Message-ID: <00A07EC9.5754E512@SendSpamHere.ORG>  i In article <a1p6h5$f3c$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>, Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no> writes:i >Hip >cI >It seems that the emacs people are trying to decide whether to eliminaten< >the VMS conditionals. (Got a mail from Stallman himself...) >n3 >So, Schenkenberger, Spinler and others interested:n > K >Have you gotten anywhere with you own stuff, or with the stuff I provided?i >o	 >Regards,s
 >Roar Thronsb >nB >(To bring EMACS to VMS, or VMS to EMACS, that is a good question)  F Had Stallman introduced the 19.28 mods that Levitte made and respondedB to emails from otehrs like myself, we might not be in this thread.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             tJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesi   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 13:53:02 +0000 (UTC)i9 From: Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no> + Subject: Re: vms emacs: last call? the end?n- Message-ID: <a1pf3u$ith$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>s  ' Roar Throns <roart@nvg.ntnu.no> wrote:m  L : Have you gotten anywhere with you own stuff, or with the stuff I provided?   By the way:  $ mcr []temacs.exe -l loadup
 works mostly.'  M The small dump seems to be because of changes(?) in the mapout_data function.'  3 "Distribution" is at ftp.nvg.ntnu.no:/pub/vms/emacsl  
 -Roar Thronsy   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 18:52:12 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: VMSBackup to unix0 Message-ID: <3C40850F.CD945F33@blueyonder.co.uk>   Simon Clubley wrote:  rK > BTW, just how does Unix handle ANSI tapes ? This is one area of Unix thats$ > I haven't had any exposure to yet.  eA there is no standard support for labelled tapes in unix. I recallpA using something called ltf (labelled tape facility) on OSF/Tru64.n> The SCO people where I was working recently "rolled their own"1 application specific labels for the backup tapes.h   regardsl   -- d Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  i  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of t! my employers or service provider.2   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 10:10:46 +0000i8 From: Christian Bau <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>O Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demd4 Message-ID: <3C400BA5.38811FFD@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>   Charlie Gibbs wrote: > B > Drag a file icon to the trash; it's deleted.  Drag a folder iconD > to the trash; it's deleted.  I almost lost my lunch the first timeD > I saw someone drag a floppy disk icon to the trash.  My (obviouslyE > incorrectly wired) brain extrapolated the other examples to suggestrD > that the entire disk was going to be trashed (formatted, perhaps).  H Obviously that means that if you used a computer with a GUI that you areH not hundred percent familiar with, and if you see a floppy disk icon andD a trashcan icon and if you wish to eject the disk, then you will notH drag the floppy disk to the trashcan. Which is quite sensible. You wouldC look for an eject item in a menu, maybe look for a mechanical ejectaC button near the floppy disk drive etc. But the fact that dragging aWF floppy disc icon to the trashcan ejects it doesn't cause you any harm.C The only harm that was almost caused to you came from the fact thathH someone else did something that you believed was harmful, but the personH doing it knew exactly that it wasn't. (On the other hand, if I saw a sixF year old getting their hands on my computer and moving icons around, IF know that the harddisk icon is the only thing that is actually safe; I2 would be _extremely_ worried about anything else).  G On the other hand, if those two icons are on the screen, then obviouslyoC a user _can_ drag the floppy disk icon on the trashcan. Now what isoC supposed to happen if they do this? You think that the most logicallG thing to happen is that the floppy disc is erased, and I can even agree H with you. However, in this particular situation if the computer does theC most logical thing then you will have many very unhappy customers. r  F By the way: Drag a file icon to the trash, and it is _not_ deleted. ItA is moved to the trash. That's why it is a trashcan icon and not at shredder icon.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 12:31:43 +0100 3 From: Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com>sO Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The deml- Message-ID: <3C401E9F.DFC98357@hda.hydro.com>k   Charlie Gibbs wrote:A > Thanks for the sermon.  One of the reasons Apple irritates many > > people is that they seem to claim total knowledge of what is= > "intuitive" and what isn't.  Anyone who disagrees with themt= > obviously has his brain wired incorrectly; how dare someone4> > suggest that what's intuitive to one person might be totally > opaque to someone else?r > B > Drag a file icon to the trash; it's deleted.  Drag a folder iconD > to the trash; it's deleted.  I almost lost my lunch the first timeD > I saw someone drag a floppy disk icon to the trash.  My (obviouslyE > incorrectly wired) brain extrapolated the other examples to suggestnD > that the entire disk was going to be trashed (formatted, perhaps).  E This is indeed horrible, but I believe even the worst Mac bigots havef< acknowledged that it was a design mistake, plain and simple.   TerjeG   --    - <Terje.Mathisen@hda.hydro.com>@ "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 13:19:04 +0000o8 From: Christian Bau <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>O Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demo4 Message-ID: <3C4037C9.BC9FF914@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>   Charlie Gibbs wrote: > A > Thanks for the sermon.  One of the reasons Apple irritates manym> > people is that they seem to claim total knowledge of what is= > "intuitive" and what isn't.  Anyone who disagrees with themt= > obviously has his brain wired incorrectly; how dare someoneg> > suggest that what's intuitive to one person might be totally > opaque to someone else?t  E I will try to recapitulate a bit. First Aaron Spinks wrote that ApplenF has never ever managed to implement contextual menus. The problem hereG is that he is well respected so people would have a tendency to believe:C what he writes, and that on this occasion he was completely wrong. M  G Then comes the usual sermon that a three button mouse is so much betterEE than a single button mouse. But I only ever hear this from people whorC have no experience with a single button mouse whatsoever. MacintoshsB users know better about the usability of a single button mouse (inH conjunction with software designed for a single button mouse, obviously)H then for example a PC user who has never used a single button mouse. AndE Macintosh users don't complain about it. It may very well be the caseaH that removing the other buttons from a Windows or Unix mouse would leaveD unsatisfactory results, but that is because they are designed to useF multiple buttons. That is about the same as if two car drivers discuss? the value of the kludge. The one driving automatic thinks it issD completely unnecessary. I on the other hand know that I cannot shift; gears without using the kludge, so I insist on having one.    E The last bit was someone posting how unintuitive the use of the shiftEF button together with a mouse click is, and that this was a huge designF mistake that Apple made. I think this is nonsense and I posted that. IH may be right, wrong, opinionated or whatever. Fact is that the MacintoshH uses shift-clicks extensively and Macintosh users don't complain that itH is non-intuitive, and Windows uses shift-clicks just as much and WindowsB users don't complain either, and Linux users can feel free to postH whether Linux uses shift-clicks, but I bet it does, and I bet they don't	 complain.r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:08:02 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>1O Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dem:+ Message-ID: <3C404341.531DD2D@videotron.ca>s   Terje Mathisen wrote: F > > I saw someone drag a floppy disk icon to the trash.  My (obviouslyG > > incorrectly wired) brain extrapolated the other examples to suggesteF > > that the entire disk was going to be trashed (formatted, perhaps). > G > This is indeed horrible, but I believe even the worst Mac bigots haveP> > acknowledged that it was a design mistake, plain and simple.  N This is not the "official" method to dismount a disk. You can use the menus to; eject the drive, and there is alkso some keyboard shortcut.o  N Also note that on a MAC, when you drag something to the trash can, it does NOTK get deleted. It is just removed from your desktop. You trash can is deleted, when you empty the trash.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:19:46 -0500t% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>oO Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demk, Message-ID: <3C404601.D748C254@videotron.ca>   Christian Bau wrote:G > I will try to recapitulate a bit. First Aaron Spinks wrote that Apple H > has never ever managed to implement contextual menus. The problem hereI > is that he is well respected so people would have a tendency to believewD > what he writes, and that on this occasion he was completely wrong.  E Depends on your definition of contextual menus. The menu bar has been N contextual from the start with applications turning certain options on and offG and even changing some menu options depending on the current situation.i  L The bubble-help system that came, I think with system 7, was most certaintlyJ contextual. (leave cursor over a field for a while, and up pops a "bubble"C that explains what that field is. OK, so that isn't a menu per say.d  M If you are talking about a menu that pops up in the middle of your text to do|N stuff, you are perhaps right. My first encounter was probably with netscape by holding mouse button down.  F But guess what, it has never stopped me from doing anything. Note thatN Microsoft was forced to add differences to its GUI so that it woudln't be suchM a direct copy of the MAC interface. But it doesn't necessarily mean that whatu MS added was really useful.r  J > that removing the other buttons from a Windows or Unix mouse would leaveF > unsatisfactory results, but that is because they are designed to use > multiple buttons.   L You might be surprised to find out that many windows users don't really make0 use of the other buttons. Perhaps only geeks do.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 08:49:01 +0100C, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>K Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The dems7 Message-ID: <20020112084901.279fbcd3.steveo@eircom.net>   " On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 15:48:02 -0600* "GerardS" <GerardS@PrairieTech.Net> wrote:   G> | Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:M G> | moved (shifted) the mechanism up and down so as to strike the paper with I G> | either the upper or lower letters. Given this experience why is it  jT G> The  SHIFT  key is used to choose either the lower or upper character on the key,  G 	Whatever is engraved in the selected position of course - contemplates I an uppercase only design with SHIFT swapping QWERTY and AZERTY layouts :)r  T G> not just the letters.    Also, don't confuse the shift lock on manual typewritersR G> with the modern caps-lock on most computer keyboards. --------------- Gerard S.  C 	That would be a bad thing to do - shift lock cannot be remapped to 
 Control :)  ? 	Hmm implementing caps-lock on a mechanical typewriter would bei+ a challenging piece of mechanical design :)f   -- eH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 08:57:16 +0100i, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>K Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demo7 Message-ID: <20020112085716.4aaceefb.steveo@eircom.net>e  " On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 14:46:57 +1300$ Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:  L BH> What Apple does (or at least did 15 years ago) and which pretty much no H BH> one else does (then or now) is implement the same functionallity in M BH> every reasonable way they can think of and then *TEST* it on real people hG BH> and carefully record and analyse to see which techniques cause the s BH> fewest user mistakes.o  > 	This can be expected to yield a design optimised for the test
 scenarios.  J BH> Of course no one does this because it's ten times more expensive than F BH> just implementing the first thing you think of and stopping there.  ? 	No, the rest of us just get to talk to the poor sods that have G to use the interfaces we dream up and get to tune them to the job beingi done.t  B 	I do not believe in the one true user interface - but that thread was a few months back :)   -- uH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:29:02 +0000h8 From: Christian Bau <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>K Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The dem 4 Message-ID: <3C4001DE.9D22EBD3@cbau.freeserve.co.uk>   Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:  > K >         The shift key is a left over from mechanical typewriters where itoJ > moved (shifted) the mechanism up and down so as to strike the paper withN > either the upper or lower letters. Given this experience why is it intuitiveG > that the electronic version affects physically disconnected objects ?s  I You are confusing a concept with a historical mechanical implementation. -  K > CB> The keyboard is not an "unrelated peripheral", it is one of the three:H > CB> essential components (from the users point of view) that make up aI > CB> modern computer: Monitor, keyboard, and mouse. All three componentsr > K >         Monitor(s), keyboard(s), mouse(mice), bitpad(s), digitiser(s) ...xJ > OK I have never seen a system with all the plurals, but I have certainlyK > seen each of them and several combinations. If I have two mice in use for,M > different purposes (OK not many systems will do this) then which one should L > be affected by the shift key on the keyboard ? Might the shift key also beK > expected to interact with the remote control for a TV tuner card ? Spooky , > action at a distance is *never* intuitive.  H You are making up strawmen here. If you have a system with two mice thatH serve different purposes then you are leaving the realm of intuitiveness7 anyway, so nothing of this discussion applies anymore. u  I > CB> Ok, you have so much more experience designing user interfaces thang > CB> anyone at Apple does.  > I >         I suspect a good proportion of the regulars in here do, many of K > them with direct personal feedback from real users concentrating on doing=K > real things (as distinct from evaluation users concentrating on what they-+ > think of the interface they are testing).    If you think so.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 12:31:35 +0100s, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>K Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demw7 Message-ID: <20020112123135.7964aa8b.steveo@eircom.net>d  " On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:29:02 +00009 Christian Bau <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:-   CB> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:aK CB> > that the electronic version affects physically disconnected objects ?r CB> M CB> You are confusing a concept with a historical mechanical implementation. 7  G 	No, I am pointing out that what seems intuitive depends on experience.o  L CB> You are making up strawmen here. If you have a system with two mice thatL CB> serve different purposes then you are leaving the realm of intuitiveness; CB> anyway, so nothing of this discussion applies anymore. h  A 	Why on earth can't such a system be intuitive ? A drawing systemyG that uses a mouse to manipulate the toolbar and a bitpad for the actual H drawing would be pretty intuitive IMHO - substituting a second mouse forH the bitpad probably wouldn't bother someone used to the first setup much
 if at all.  M CB> >         I suspect a good proportion of the regulars in here do, many ofnO CB> > them with direct personal feedback from real users concentrating on doing O CB> > real things (as distinct from evaluation users concentrating on what they / CB> > think of the interface they are testing).  CB>  CB> If you think so.  + 	I do, otherwise I wouldn't have posted it.1   -- 0H C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 12:36:49 +0100s, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>K Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demR7 Message-ID: <20020112123649.35cffaf3.steveo@eircom.net>a  " On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 10:10:46 +00009 Christian Bau <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:V  G CB> look for an eject item in a menu, maybe look for a mechanical eject G CB> button near the floppy disk drive etc. But the fact that dragging a   D 	I switched off a Mac with what I thought was the eject button once.  J CB> year old getting their hands on my computer and moving icons around, IJ CB> know that the harddisk icon is the only thing that is actually safe; I6 CB> would be _extremely_ worried about anything else).  F 	I like my environment more and more - I've had two year olds poundingN on my keyboard and trackpad on an open session without worrying me - the worst) they've ever managed to do is log me out.   J CB> By the way: Drag a file icon to the trash, and it is _not_ deleted. ItE CB> is moved to the trash. That's why it is a trashcan icon and not au CB> shredder icon.  @ 	So to be consistent the Mac should copy the floppy image to theH trashcan and eject the floppy (to remove the original from the system) ?   --  H C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:04:42 +0100 , From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )e7 Message-ID: <20020112090442.46807336.steveo@eircom.net>s    On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 18:36:21 GMT2 rsteiner@isis.visi.com (Richard C. Steiner) wrote:  = RCS> In article <20020111074725.6aa55981.steveo@eircom.net>, t RCS> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: RCS>  H RCS> >	Can you cite any examples where movies have been better than evenM RCS> >quite bad books in the same genre ? I am quite sure that there are *no*iK RCS> >science fiction films that improve on novels with similar topics (leti( RCS> >alone the ones they are based on). RCS> rM RCS> Blade Runner?  Perhaps not an improvement on the original Philip K. Dickh! RCS> novel, but certainly on par.h  B 	I disagree, when I first saw Blade Runner I had known Do Androids< Dream of Electric Sheep for some time - I was not impressed.   --  H C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:06:19 +0100 , From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )i7 Message-ID: <20020112090619.24f88aee.steveo@eircom.net>a  " On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 21:31:41 +01004 Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote:   TM> Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:d TM> > ( TM> > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:39:49 +0100: TM> > Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote: TM> > F TM> > TM> Not _nearly_ as bad as current movies about the same things. TM> > O TM> >         Can you cite any examples where movies have been better than even M TM> > quite bad books in the same genre ? I am quite sure that there are *no*eK TM> > science fiction films that improve on novels with similar topics (lete( TM> > alone the ones they are based on). TM> 	 TM> 2001?'  F 	Hmm, yes perhaps - I think the book is better but this is the closestD match, of course film and book were written *together* in this case.   -- aH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:07:40 +0100e, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )n7 Message-ID: <20020112090740.51387ad7.steveo@eircom.net>   " On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 15:38:35 -0800+ "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com> wrote:c  = JP> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in messagee5 JP> news:20020111074725.6aa55981.steveo@eircom.net...eG JP> > Can you cite any examples where movies have been better than even ) JP> > quite bad books in the same genre ?t JP> O JP> Dr. Strangelove...the movie was brilliant and more coherent than any Philipa JP> K. Dick story.   	That's a gotcha.l   -- pH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sat, 12 Jan 02 11:14:32 GMTh From: jmfbahciv@aol.comuY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )t+ Message-ID: <a1pdbn$2mt$8@bob.news.rcn.net>b  + In article <3c3f406d$2@news.sierratel.com>,u6    "Walter Rottenkolber" <waltjr@sierratel.com> wrote: >t$ >Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote in message/ ><20020111074725.6aa55981.steveo@eircom.net>...s$ >>On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:39:49 +01006 >>Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote: >>B >>TM> Not _nearly_ as bad as current movies about the same things. >>D >> Can you cite any examples where movies have been better than evenI >>quite bad books in the same genre ? I am quite sure that there are *no*uG >>science fiction films that improve on novels with similar topics (letn$ >>alone the ones they are based on). >>J >The movie 'Contact' is much smoother and coherent than Carl Sagan's novel) >'Contact'. Admittedly a rare occurrence.e  = I never read his novel, but he sure didn't seem coherent whenh@ did his TV work.  I don't know how well he did in the classroom.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 11:35:25 -0500v$ From: Bill Bradley <senator@sgi.net>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )o' Message-ID: <3C4065CD.18454A80@sgi.net>f   Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:u > $ > On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 15:38:35 -0800- > "Jack Peacock" <peacock@simconv.com> wrote:- > ? > JP> "Steve O'Hara-Smith" <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in messageM7 > JP> news:20020111074725.6aa55981.steveo@eircom.net...tI > JP> > Can you cite any examples where movies have been better than even.+ > JP> > quite bad books in the same genre ?e > JP> Q > JP> Dr. Strangelove...the movie was brilliant and more coherent than any Philip  > JP> K. Dick story. >  >         That's a gotcha.  C 	Only if you consider Philip K. Dick to be political satire, or Dr.s$ Strangelove to be science fiction...   	Bille   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 13:33:47 -0400k+ From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa@trailing-edge.com>cY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )s1 Message-ID: <3C403B3B.12BC0977@trailing-edge.com>A   Jack Peacock wrote:i > ; > "Steve O'Hara-Smith" <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in message 3 > news:20020111074725.6aa55981.steveo@eircom.net...uE > > Can you cite any examples where movies have been better than evena' > > quite bad books in the same genre ?f > M > Dr. Strangelove...the movie was brilliant and more coherent than any Philipa > K. Dick story.  < Philip K Dick stories are *purposefully* incoherent.  And DrB Strangelove was (brilliant) slapstick satire, not science fiction.  ? I don't remember the title of the novel, but there was a Philips? K Dick book where the good and bad guys are jaunting around thedA timestream, reading a book about history and changing the book ascD they go along!  That was headache city.  I gave up half-way through.   Tim.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 11:01:22 +0100n. From: Konrad Schwarz <konradDOTschwarz@web.de>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )e& Message-ID: <3C400972.55239264@web.de>   Steve O'Hara-Smith schrieb:   $ > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:39:49 +01006 > Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote: >'B > TM> Not _nearly_ as bad as current movies about the same things. >hK >         Can you cite any examples where movies have been better than evenrI > quite bad books in the same genre ? I am quite sure that there are *no*tG > science fiction films that improve on novels with similar topics (leto$ > alone the ones they are based on). >t   2001, a space odesseyi   >c > --J > C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsP > The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunN > You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:L >                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 11:18:49 +0100d. From: Konrad Schwarz <konradDOTschwarz@web.de>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )Y% Message-ID: <3C400D89.8FDE9E8@web.de>r   Dave Perks schrieb:    > Terje Mathisen wrote:. > >c > > Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:i > > >n( > > > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:39:49 +0100: > > > Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote: > > >dF > > > TM> Not _nearly_ as bad as current movies about the same things. > > >eO > > >         Can you cite any examples where movies have been better than evenkM > > > quite bad books in the same genre ? I am quite sure that there are *no*eK > > > science fiction films that improve on novels with similar topics (lete( > > > alone the ones they are based on). > >R	 > > 2001?: > >  > > Otherwise, I agree.  >lH > Wasn't the book "2001" written at the same time as, or even after, the
 > screenplay?o  L The film was inspired by a short story written by Clark in the 50's or 60's.- I believe the book was writen after the film.o   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.022 ************************