0 INFO-VAX	Sun, 13 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 24      Contents:A Re: 17 years and still waiting for my first VMS crash (yawn!) ...  Cable part # needed  Re: Cable part # needed " Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business Re: DCL (F$GETQUI) ProblemP Filesystem transliteration (was Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DE/ Five Roses: Incredible 125% Match Deposit Bonus  Re: FTP Success/Failure? Re: FTP Success/Failure? Re: FTP Success/Failure?1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 0 Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsE movies or books (was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  Re: OT: Net humor * Re: Please make the subject line pertinentP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was  Re:     The O Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The dem  SYSMAN> STARTUP + TCPIP  configuration problems and questions " Re: who else got the VMS brochure? Re: Windows version of DCL? P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise    of compP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise    of compP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise of compaq P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise of compaq F Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demF Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demF Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demF Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demB Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demB Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demB Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )M Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq ) # [AUDIO] Timidity V 2.11.1 available   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:55:35 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> J Subject: Re: 17 years and still waiting for my first VMS crash (yawn!) ...4 Message-ID: <VA.00000514.1edcd7fc@bluewin.delete.ch>  H In article <3C3E80E3.B08625A9@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLean wrote: > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > > G > > It been almost 17 years now I have been on VMS without an OS crash! J > > Started out on a PDP 11/83 running RSTS/E briefly without a crash alsoG > > then to Vax VMS 4.7 then to Vax VMS 6.0 then to Vax VMS 6.2 then to G > > Alpha VMS 7.1 ... I dare anyone in windoze or unix or linux land to G > > claim the same!  I think this once again proves what OS is the most I > > reliable ... read this and weep windoze and unix users, oh, I forgot, & > > you already are weeping ... sorry! > J > Not quite Irish Railways because that was the same machine (or machines) > for 17 years...  > @ > I recall a year or two back hearing that Compaq had to teach a2 > customer's system managers how to boot an Alpha. > H > The sys managers with the knowledge had gradually been replaced over aD > period of time but since the Alphas didn't need rebooting, the newI > people never had the experience.  I guess that nothing had been changed D > so the new peope had to learn about boot flags, the system startup  > sequence and things like that. > D I spotted an ad on www.jobserve.co.uk just after Christmas. It said C something like "Unix guru sought to supervise a reboot of a VAX/VMS A Alpha system tomorrow". [snigger - don't you just love agencies?] @ Just a day or less of short notice work for big bucks in London.  G (Sorry UK readers, I didn't spot it soon enough, or I would have passed 
 the info on.)  ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:19:43 GMT = From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)  Subject: Cable part # needed0 Message-ID: <00A07FB5.0BC65D5A@SendSpamHere.ORG>  F I have a BA356 with a fast-wide personality module.  I'm having a hellG of a time finding a right-angle SCSI cable so that I can connect to the F side 68 pin connector.  Does anybody know the DEC part number for suchG a cable?  (or for that matter, a source and part number for a 3rd-party  cable which will work?)   9 Does anybody have such a cable they'd like to part with?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:59:11 GMT $ From: "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org>  Subject: Re: Cable part # needed< Message-ID: <PVj08.22127$yC.2546569@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>  J "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A07FB5.0BC65D5A@SendSpamHere.ORG...H > I have a BA356 with a fast-wide personality module.  I'm having a hellI > of a time finding a right-angle SCSI cable so that I can connect to the H > side 68 pin connector.  Does anybody know the DEC part number for suchI > a cable?  (or for that matter, a source and part number for a 3rd-party  > cable which will work?)   ; http://www.compaq.com/legacysupport/digital/pdf/clusuia.pdf   B Check page 9 for the breakdown.  I think you want the DS-BN21K-05.  L Also check out http://www.techcable.com/html/cable.html and click on the DEC
 SCSI link.   Cheers, 
     .../Ed -- Ed Wilts Mounds View, MN, USA mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:01:21 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk+ Subject: Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business + Message-ID: <a1seh1$t8g$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   h In article <d7791aa1.0201120707.74c18acc@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:R >david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote in message news:<a1ndka$97a$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>...X >> In article <3C3F2BBC.75F08991@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <anonymous@pacbell.net> writes: >> >' >> >I restate part of a previous post : G >> >VMS could still be saved, but it would take some group with $$$ and  >> >vision and even someJ >> >acceptance from the VMS community that the OS needs to evolve and that7 >> >might be more difficult than getting the investors.  >> > >>  I >> VMS has always been evolving. In which particular areas do you want it 9 >> to evolve further and in which particular directions ?  >>  
 >> David Webb  >> VMS and Unix team leader  >> CCSS  >> Middlesex University  >>   >> >Rick Nickles wrote:  >> >> K >> >> It really seems that the best thing for VMS is to spin it off as it's J >> >> own separate business (company).  That way there isn't the politicalL >> >> agenda with Microsoft, and then they are free to market VMS like crazyL >> >> and really build up a following as a single company.  Compaq stands toK >> >> gain, The users stand to gain, Customers stand to gain.  The only one J >> >> that might lose is Microsoft, and it isn't like they'll be hurt that >> >> bad anyway.  >> >>  >> >> What do you think folks? > J >evolving, but too slowly ... Palmer put it behind by not allowing any VMSF >enhancements like say Apache ... he tried to force everyone to NT ...J >I talk too many old vms support people still there from dec and they saidG >practically anything that runs on unix can be ported easily to vms and J >had wanted to do many enhancements but Palmer wouldn't let them, and letsI >face it, Compaq allowed some because NT Itanium flopped, but it is still L >under retraints and advertisement is non existent ... and I seriously doubtJ >it will improve under the HP pc crowd who it sounds like will try to pushM >vms users onto hp unix, but like Palmer, that will fail and they will either F >have to support or sell vms, or lose the vms customer base to IBM ...  C I would agree if you had said that evolving VMS to make porting of  G Unix applications easier was not as fast as many would like eg Dropping N Posix support rather than going all out to improve it - though that policy has
 now changed.  K However the citing of Apache support as a major failing of Compaq/DEC seems N rather strange. Apache is public domain it would have been possible for othersK to have ported it - However most people didn't consider the effort worth it N since VMS has had it's own web servers which were arguably better than Apache.K (eg The Decthreads OSU webserver is as it's name implies a thread based web K server - Apache still isn't ( Though the next main version of Apache should  be)). N How many Unix companies actually port Apache themselves rather than leaving it to enthusiasts ?  N I see the porting of public domain Applications by VMS engineeering as a good N thing. We can't expect them to port everything. We are grateful when they portH things which we cannot either because they are not in the Public domain I eg earlier versions of Netscape or are too complicated for an individual   programmer to deal with.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 09:44:14 GMT 1 From: CSABA  HARANGOZO   <csabah@zipworld.com.au> # Subject: Re: DCL (F$GETQUI) Problem 8 Message-ID: <OFc08.2138$ko4.225222@nasal.pacific.net.au>  . UK Garage Scene <ukgaragescene@aol.com> wrote:Q > I'm trying to create a dcl .com to extract all entrys created in one queue by a Q > single user (USERX for example), then $SET ENT/HOLD  for the rest of the entrys N > leaving USERX released for completion, then releasing the rest of the entrysG > once the USERX entrys have all been completed.  Had a look in the DCL P > dictionary at the F$GETQUI lexical but it went straight over my head, too many$ > commands.  Can anybody help me?      	Another solution could be : 	$STOP/QUEUE/NEXT <your_queue>@ 	then once you have your list of entries extracted in a loop for= 	that user ( USERX ) set the priorities of the entries higher - 	than the default ( usually 100 ), e.g. 110 :   	$SET ENTRY/PRIO=110  <entry_no> 	$START/QUEUE <your_queue>  @ 	This makes the jobs submitted by USERX to "jump the queue" :-),= 	executing before all the other jobs with default priority... D 	Once all jobs by USERX have finished, the rest will get their turn.   	Hope this helps...  						Cheers,    Csaba  I    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- E    * Csaba I. Harangozo     |    'To err is human', said the hedgehog E    * csabah@zipworld.com.au |           as he dismounted a wirebrush. I    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:46:22 -0000 3 From: "Malcolm" <malcolm@neverness.freeserve.co.uk> Y Subject: Filesystem transliteration (was Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DE . Message-ID: <a1sh0i$68l$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>  ? "Jan C. Vorbrggen" <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote in message % news:3C3EA01D.7B7D19D1@mediasec.de... K > Is there actually an alive human language where case differences (if they  haveI > the concept of case at all) routinely connote semantic differences? How  many" > speakers do such languages have? > ' Umm, German? (sie und Sie, ihr und Ihr)    -M.   C > I do not consider English, for instance, to belong in this class,  > the Lord notwithstanding.  > I There are other exceptions. Heavenly bodies. (Sun, Moon, Earth versus sun A [=some other star, not ours], moon [=to bare the buttocks], earth H [=electrical term]). I (always capitalised, you never say 'i went to the* shops' (unless you are in a hurry/lazy ;).L Sometimes, when used in a descriptive sense. U-bend. S-bend and Z-bend [from roads], K rarely s-bend or z-bend. 'Hammer' as in a person, as opposed to 'hammer' (a  tool).C 'Swede' [=a person from Sweden] and 'swede' [=a variety of turnip]. J 'N-complete' [from mathematics] more often than 'n-complete'. 'Death' (theK guy with the scythe) versus 'death' (the more normal meaning) (and the same F for War, Pestilence and Famine). 'the Bible' [=the book in general] as> opposed to 'the bible' [=as in referring to a specific bible].L 'North','South', 'East' and 'West' (although capitals on the cardinal pointsJ of the compass are becoming rare and falling out of use). 'the Government'A [=our own Government] as opposed to 'the government' [=the act of  governing].   L Most of these are probably specific to British English, but that's no reasonL to just ignore them. Jeez, why, when I select British English on my PC, doesL it still talk about desktop 'colors', and says 'Connecting <name-of-my-ISP>'I as opposed to the correct 'Connecting to <name-of-my-isp>'. And why is my D choice of measurement system limited to 'Metric' and 'U.S.'. Where'sG 'Imperial'? And 'Favorites', not 'Favourites'. At least, all of this is < correct from my point of view, and since I asked for BritishF English, why am I not getting it??? Oh and of course, it should have a 'Defenestrate') option instead of 'Uninstall Windows' ;-)   C Returning to the topic though, I think a file system should be case  insensitive, butL allow names to be stored in mixed-case, as long as it was case-insensitivelyG unique (no Foo.bar and FOO.BAR, for example). For foreign languages, it D should use the rules relevant to that language. If characters appearL identical between languages, or have the same alphabetical function (such asK  and ss in German), it should treat these as equivalents. This does get to F start a bit of a problem if you have, say, nitions and munitions. TheJ answer is that the file system should use fuzzy matching UNLESS you have aK case such as this where the two files are clearly different. It should also I warn the application about this ambiguity. The application should then be  nice enough to tell you...  I A non-Western alphabet like Arabic, Korean, Japanese or Tamil, should use L the standard transliteration mechanisim accepted for these languages. If oneK exists, that is! The OS's utilities should be able to display the file name I in its original character set, plus it should be transliterated into your  own local character set. So,L you could send a Russian a document written by a friend in Korea, and all of	 you would J be able to use _different_ filenames to refer to the _same_ file. The fileI name might not make any sense to you, but that's a semantics problem. You K could have the computer make an attempt to translate the name, but that's a L problem for the software, not the OS [Not yet anyway - but maybe one day !].  K Chinese might be a problem, since very many characters transliterate to the K same letters.. Probably a workaround would be necessary, such as instead of J the file 'yiyiyiyi' it was 'yi104yi28yi304yi47' where the number refers toK the order of its appearance in the character set. My father's encyclopedias  (Collier, 1969) have an J interesting illustration of this problem in the entry for 'CHINESE' called the story ofK Aunt Yi's Pancreas, consisting of about 20-odd characters, all of which are & pronounced 'yi' in one of four ways...  I This is probably the best solution. It gives you filenames that are ugly, J but usable _whatever your local language_. Details such as the language ofC the filename and its local transliteration should be stored as file L metadata. If you move a file from, say, a Cyrillic to an Arabic machine, theL Arabic machine should check the local language set in the file metadata and,L re-tag it as Arabic and re-transliterate it from the original filename usingK the rules appropriate for Arabic. This should be transparent to the user. AJF user should optionally be allowed to place their own local name in theL metadata. So if I received a file from a Korean about bread imports, I couldL give it the English name 'Bread Imports' as a secondary name... but, this isJ the neat thing, it would still retain its Korean name, and when I e-mailedH it back to him, he would still see the Korean name. Ideally the metadataJ should be able to store many such local names. These could even be used asK part of the OS security; files that are hidden UNLESS you are a member of agF group that has access to them (and then it shows you the file name, inJ whatever local language you are using), all governed by the file metadata.  F Wonder if anyone's working on this sort of thing? Did Plan 9 implement anything like this?l  I Or have I just given the filesystem guys a great idea on a silver platterr for free? Darn! ;-)   	 -Malcolm.    > Jana   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 01:34:12 -0600 (CST)i+ From: "Cashweek Alert" <alert@cashweek.com>v8 Subject: Five Roses: Incredible 125% Match Deposit Bonus< Message-ID: <200201130734.g0D7YCB25787@pluto.dotventure.com>   Hi  ,i <pre>ek <hr SIZE=1 NOSHADE><font face="Arial">To Modify your Cashweek Alert subscription, please read below.</font>a <hr SIZE=1 NOSHADE></pre>o <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>froses_comp_01</TITLE> H <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> </HEAD>e <BODY onload="window.open('http://www.fiverosecasino.com/popup/splashpop/125emailpop.php?from=314','bonuswindow','width=250,height=265,toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status=no,menubar=no,scrollbars=no,copyhistory=no,resizable=no');" BGCOLOR=#FFFFFF>> <table width="444" border="2" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">   <tr>     <td valign="top">r~       <table width=511 border=0 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 background="http://www.thegamblershop.com/mailout/5roses/bgd.gif">
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         </tr>-       </table>	     </td>-   </tr>- </table> </BODY>T </HTML>D <pre>A  <hr SIZE=1 NOSHADE WIDTH="100%">_ <font face="Arial,Helvetica">This email is part of your Cashweek Alert Newsletter subscription.nZ If you are no longer interested in receiving future Free Cash and Offer newsletters,&nbsp; click below to unsubscribe:ea <a href="http://www.cashweek.com/unsubscribe.shtml">http://www.cashweek.com/unsubscribe.shtml</a>e5 Enter your email address: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com&nbsp;  Your Password: MLJPYHCDe: ==========================================================7 Copyright 2002 Cashweek.com. All rights reserved</font>e   </pre>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 12:50:54 +0100,9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>i! Subject: Re: FTP Success/Failure? ' Message-ID: <3C41749E.164DE4CB@aaa.com>r   HI. = I raised this issue earlier in this thread, but I don't thinko I got any concise answer.o  7 Is it possible to end up with an incompleat file at the(" remote host, *even* if you got the/ "250 Transfer completed successfully" message ?a  = And in what way would the rename of the (possibly) incompleatn8 file help ? Will the rename operation tell you that it's incompleat ?   Jan-Erik Sderholm.h   "John E. Malmberg" wrote:= >  > Alphaman wrote:n > O > > Yes -- Copy/FTP _does_ return a $STATUS symbol, and it works extremely wellnN > > in this regard.  I use it extensively with On Warning... to manage copies.O > > The only thing you've got to watch out for when copying to an IBM system isn > > file name case.  > H > Unless you use a two step procedure to FTP copy to a temp filename andI > then rename it, you run the risk that the remote system will attempt tob > process an incomplete file.  >  > -Johnv > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Onlyt   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:15:08 GMTs- From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>n! Subject: Re: FTP Success/Failure?h* Message-ID: <3C418CD4.6090607@qsl.network>   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:c   > HI.n? > I raised this issue earlier in this thread, but I don't thinkC > I got any concise answer.' > 9 > Is it possible to end up with an incompleat file at thei$ > remote host, *even* if you got the1 > "250 Transfer completed successfully" message ?h    < I do not think so, unless one of the FTP programs is broken.    ? > And in what way would the rename of the (possibly) incompleata: > file help ? Will the rename operation tell you that it's > incompleat ?    J By putting the rename operation in the same FTP script as the PUT, or GET.  I If an error occurs in the PUT or GET, the script is interrupted, and the   rename never occurs.  E With or without the rename you know if the transfer is successful or r3 not.  You also do not know how much was transfered.i  D Without the rename on a put, the remote system does not have a clue G until it analyzes the file.  Which means that the receiving system has tB to be programed to deal with receiving a possibly incomplete file.  I If it does not, the recovery operation on how to deal with the duplicate a7 records when the file is resent could be a big problem.i  C And this does not even begin to deal with the issues where someone eB either accidentally or maliciously (less likely) copies the wrong ' file(s) into the destination directory.e  G In no way should a remote FTP user have access to overlay any critical f data files of course.o   -Johns wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlye   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:13:02 +0100e9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>o! Subject: Re: FTP Success/Failure?r' Message-ID: <3C4195EE.51E109C2@aaa.com>o  
 Ah, I get it. ) So a way to make it fail-proof could be :e  : 1. Run a FTP session to DELETE any possibly left-over temp=    file from the host. This session could result in a successa>    or a failure, but we realy don't care (but possible log the	    fact).e  ; 2. Run a FTP session to COPY to a temp file and then RENAME )    the temp file into the real file name.e<    If the COPY failes, the RENAME will never be run. And the-    remote host will never "see" any new file.i  < 3. If step 2 failes, re-run from step 1 using the same local
    infile.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.n     "John E. Malmberg" wrote:  >  > L > By putting the rename operation in the same FTP script as the PUT, or GET. > J > If an error occurs in the PUT or GET, the script is interrupted, and the > rename never occurs. >l   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 13 Jan 02 10:37:46 GMTb From: jmfbahciv@aol.comg: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1rvj3$e2o$1@bob.news.rcn.net>g  3 In article <slrna40bsl.5v1.rivie@cougar.no.domain>,      rivie@cougar.no.domain wrote:E >In article <a1p9th$pdl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:m5 >> In article <a1ne4j$240q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>,m/ >>    peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:e) >>>A file system is not a user interface.h >> e? >> Exactly.  So why should it "know" the local spoken language.  > I >OK, now you folks will have to explain to me why files should have namesa >in the first place.  < Because numbers are difficult to remember.  People transpose: numbers without noticing.  They tend to notice if a "word" is spelled incorrectly.w   >s) >The file system is not a user interface.a  6 Right.  It is the "interface" between the hardware and the monitor.    " > .. It should access all files by >inode number.  9 Why?  One could also get more ridiculous and say that onea7 should only access files by the physical address of thes5 disk platter.  AAMOF, this happens.  How do you thinkn9 "file systems" got developed?  I see no reason to restarth
 the cycle.  : > ... The filenames are a user interface problem; the userF >interface is responsible for accepting appropriate filenames from theI >user and turning them into inode numbers for the filesystem. This allowso> >filenames to include anything, even /, when it's appropriate.  ; An OS that makes it easy to include file spec delimiters as@= a part of the filename should expunged, IMO.  The only reasons? somebody would write such a file is to be "cute".  I hate cute..  = well.. there is another reason; it was a great punishment forM! idiots who refused to be trained.i   /BAH    ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.p   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 13 Jan 02 10:40:12 GMT" From: jmfbahciv@aol.comx: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1rvnl$e2o$2@bob.news.rcn.net>l  6 In article <1020113004053.16693C-100000@Ives.egh.com>,$    John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> wrote:- >On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:o >i5 >> In article <a1ne4j$240q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>,h/ >>    peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:> >> >In article  C >> <francini1026-ya02408000R1001020302190001@news.ne.mediaone.net>,c1 >> >John J Francini <francini1026@mac.com> wrote:lK >> >>Suppose someone -- a financial analyst -- works on a spreadsheet file g >> namedK >> >>"April Sales Data" on MacOS X, which is UNIX under the hood, but uses   thehF >> >>HFS+ filesystem as the default. (It also has UFS available as an  option.) >> >> J >> >>He saves it to disk.  He then later makes a word-processing document  thatE >> >>references that spreadsheet (using Microsoft-like object linkingmI >> >>facilities), and, instead of using a GUI-oriented file selector, he r types:I >> >>the filename in directly.  He makes an error typing it in -- enters y	 >> "april  >> >>sales data" instead.h >> >G >> >That's a user-interface problem. The user interface should at this r point G >> >provide a list of file names that may match the one he entered and o allowhI >> >him to select one. That would also deal with the situation where one e nameE >> >was "may sales forecast" and the other was "may sales forecasts".  >> >* >> >A file system is not a user interface. >> 5? >> Exactly.  So why should it "know" the local spoken language.  >>   >> >K >> >>Writing C (or its descendents), on the other hand, subjects you to the.G >> >>tyranny. Perish forbid that you might forget that, say, the OpenGL/J >> >>"glTexImage3D()" routine begins with a lower-case "gl", and you code  it   >> as E >> >>"GLTexImage3D()".  The linker will say "Duh?  I can't find that g routinep >> >>anywhere!". >> >2 >> >No routine should ever be called glTexImage3D. >> 0C >> The only way you can prevent that is to have a strict enforcablefA >> rule about case.  Kids will always try to be different becauseb >> they think it's cool.   >e? >No, it's "k00l" and "3l33t" (if I have my script-kiddie jargond
 >correct?)  ; I guess you have to think about who you want for customers.r; If you only want script kiddies, then use those names.  You 9 have to be more conservative if you want your products to": be bought by MBAs (hint: they've been brainwashed so won't be able to read baby talk).    /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.t   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 13 Jan 02 10:46:44 GMTe From: jmfbahciv@aol.comc: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1s03t$e2o$3@bob.news.rcn.net>   2 In article <WV908.286$vb1.52156@news1.iquest.net>,,    "John S. Dyson" <dyson@iquest.net> wrote: > K ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1p9th$pdl$2@bob.news.rcn.net...>5 >> In article <a1ne4j$240q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>,e/ >>    peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:2 >> >In article BC >> <francini1026-ya02408000R1001020302190001@news.ne.mediaone.net>, 1 >> >John J Francini <francini1026@mac.com> wrote:tK >> >>Suppose someone -- a financial analyst -- works on a spreadsheet file 5 >> namedK >> >>"April Sales Data" on MacOS X, which is UNIX under the hood, but uses   thetF >> >>HFS+ filesystem as the default. (It also has UFS available as an  option.) >> >>/J >> >>He saves it to disk.  He then later makes a word-processing document  thatE >> >>references that spreadsheet (using Microsoft-like object linkingiI >> >>facilities), and, instead of using a GUI-oriented file selector, he p types"I >> >>the filename in directly.  He makes an error typing it in -- enters  	 >> "april  >> >>sales data" instead.b >> >G >> >That's a user-interface problem. The user interface should at this " point"G >> >provide a list of file names that may match the one he entered and   allownI >> >him to select one. That would also deal with the situation where one   nameE >> >was "may sales forecast" and the other was "may sales forecasts".e >> >* >> >A file system is not a user interface. >> "? >> Exactly.  So why should it "know" the local spoken language.e >>C >Right -- it shouldn't either do silly things like folding case, oro; >make assumptions about the equivalence between characters,vB >especially at the filesystem level.   UI assumptions and behavior# >needs to be implemented in the UI.>  B You still don't understand.  The UI is constrained by the hardware? it runs on.  No matter how much the UI want to do 64-bit doubleeA precision, if the hardware ain't there, it's not going to get its C way.  The same is true w.r.t. a filesystem and various other system  details.   <snip>  / >> Kids will always try to be different becausen >> they think it's cool.   >> eE >It is indeed a silly feature of 'being cute' by either changing case A >or making assumptions about character equivalences.   It is much I >better to put those 'cute' features (if desired) into the UI.   Frankly,tH >I have even tended to dislike 'cute' features in UI code, but sometimes? >the well thought out features have been useful.   For example, F >I especially like full command line editing...   When I initially sawG >it, I found it to be a 'cute' feature, but now it is pretty clear that9D >it is also useful.   That was actually one of the first 'UNIX/ksh'  features= >that I used when moving from an RSX11M+ environment, and one"B >of the first times on UNIX that I initially believed that it was 
 relativelyH >useless fluff.   Of course, NOW it is one of the FIRST features that I  eitherC >miss, or immediately relearn for each OS -- because of the extreme  >convienience. >/I >If limitations are created because of design tradeoffs at the FILESYSTEM F >layer, then it is pretty much reasonable if those tradeoffs were madeJ >because of memory, space or CPU resource reasons (e.g. SIXBIT is okay, ifI >memory is expensive.)   If the filesystem supports 8bit characters, then<D >creating equivalence sets that are at least language dependent, andE >perhaps even place limitations on other filenaming schemes is rathera
 >specious.      5 What are you talking about?  A filesystem has nothing>< to do with the size of the bloody bytes.  A filesystem deals= with laying a string of bits out in a manner such that it can>2 read them back with 100% reliability when asked.     /BAH <snip>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 13 Jan 02 11:07:47 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.coms: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC+ Message-ID: <a1s1bc$e2o$4@bob.news.rcn.net>   @ In article <wZ_%7.25368$jc.1474973@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,.    "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: > K ><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message news:a1pajb$pdl$3@bob.news.rcn.net...c >p >...." >s: >> The point of a filename is to give the operating system< >> a method of distingishing its contents from another file. >tC >Not in any system I've ever worked with/on:  they've all had 'fileoE >identifiers' (typically binary offsets into some kind of 'inode'-ish E >array/'Index' file) for that purpose (though admittedly MS-DOS/Win9x=. >effectively just have a start-block address).  D No, no.  [frustrated emoticon trying to think how to describe this].A All right, let's try this, Bill.  Think about transferring a disk"@ file to a magtape.  The filename is the method of distinguishingA which bits should be collectively associated.  The way we "wrote"=? files to magtape during a BACKUP was really one great big file.b: However, the restore of that magtape used the filenames to@ move the collections of bits back to the disk.  If I understand : Unix' implementation, their inode is an internal mechanism? to arrange the data on a disk.  TOPS-10 has a similar mechanismi: but it's only visible to the FILFND piece of the monitor. 7 At least, I think that's piece.  The point is that thisn8 level of the detail is only known by the monitor and not9 by any user mode program.  It's a way to keep application=9 programmers from meddling with the real bit arrangements.m   >h2 >And several of these systems have had mechanisms  >that allowed a single file H >to be addressed by multiple names ('hard', as distinct from 'symbolic', >links).  A Sure.  You can do the same on TOPS-10.  But we didn't let any oldg= user or programmer do it.  In some cases, you had to have thew7 system stand-alone to mess around with stuff like that.e   >"< >> The purpose of a filename is NOT to document the contents >> exhaustively. >-F >No, but it is (usually) meant to be significant to humans in at least( >superficially documenting the contents.  = Sure that's a feature that we used a lot.  Mostly it was usedaA to distinguish the "group" the file belonged to.  If the filename=< and/or extension had the letters "FOR" in them, I was pretty; sure that I had to go talk to the FORTRAN group about it.  /< But this convenience was due to an internal naming standard 8 that we imposed on ourselves.  We also reserved certain 9 character arrangements for DEC-only use.  That way, theres; was a good chance that we wouldn't break customer software.g     >h, >  Thus a filename is chosen in terms of the* >> computing biz, not the spoken language. >e6 >On any system intended to be used by non-programmers  >(the only kind of file"D >system I'm particularly interested in these days) that is not true.  C An English sentence had a subject and a predicate.  Are you tellinge9 me that a filename has to include both when the users are < not programmers?  I don't believe that.  I worked with a lot> of non-programmers.  They had no problems thinking about files! in terms of the OS definitions.  - >  >  I do not want5 >> to have to take a glance at a list of files on the 8 >> system and have to make sure that I'm using the exact; >> font as the writer of the data used.  If I have to worrys> >> about that, then the font had better be an attribute stored >> with other file information.n >; >On that we agree.  ; This is my main point.  If there are going to be variations>; in the character interpretations, there damn well better bea5 an attribute saying how each file was created so that:? a program OPENing the file, given a user/program specification,=< can make some intelligent decisions when errors or redudancy occurs.>   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:56:39 -0000a! From: "JD" <j.day777@btclick.com>F: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <Pmg08.25264$ru2.322445@NewsReader>   $ <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message% news:a1h7hu$a36$1@bob.news.rcn.net...c: > In article <pisl3uskr35f10oj5bt2885n1lkprpmnoj@4ax.com>,+ >    Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:a; > >On Tue, 08 Jan 02 08:38:54 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:l > >  > >h@ > >>Oh, no.  Not those.  They sucked.  Not only was the keyboardA > >>bad and the print awful but you could never see what you justn> > >>typed.  Obviously, it was a terminal designed by males who > > D > >I remember now. You had to stop typing for a few seconds and then the , > >printhead moved out of the way  Annoying. >y= > It also reduced typing speed.  "I think I just made a typo. < > Let us look and see...wait...wait...wait...nope. Now I can > resume but...where was I?" >d= > And the guys hated them for debugging.  DDT format was veryl< > terse and we were used to immediate results after typing a= > query.  So another technique was the one that used up a lot-9 > of paper.  Type the slash then advance the paper to seem: > what got printed because waiting for the damned carriage, > control was enough to raise stress levels. >@  E All true.  But the early versions of PDP-11 Unix were designed arounduC that model 37.  Remember "@" as the "delete line" key?  The "@" keywB was separate on the keyboard, and nicely located (I don't remember: where) so that you could strike it without pressing SHIFT.  B And, the DH-11 and DZ11 drivers for Unix, unmodified from the Bell< Labs distribution tapes, were beautifully timed to the model  37...delays after newlines, etc.  C By the way, "newline" (line feed) on that model 37 was a large key,eD similar to what "carriage return" is on modern keyboards.  "CarriageF return" was much smaller.  So I am guessing that "newline" (\n) as theE end-of-line character was a result of the early Unix developers -- ore1 the Multicians before them -- using the model 37.   $ Change sevens to noughts for e-mail.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:55:35 +0100u/ From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC4 Message-ID: <VA.00000515.1edcd810@bluewin.delete.ch>  D In article <3C3EA1F9.7AC09FC2@mediasec.de>, Jan C. Vorbrggen wrote:F > > (c) seems to be the most attractive choice, until you realize how - > > vitally important portability really is. i > N > Really? The problem I see with your case (c) is that somebody creates a fileJ > with the language set to one value, then another person with a differentM > language setting tries to use a different-case version to access this file,eN > but fails because the case-mapping rules of the two languages are different./ > Of course, she can still use the correct-case= > version to access the file.j > K > I would be interested in an example where two languages have a lower-case I > letter - say "" - and one upper-cases it to "" and the other to "AE",n9 > or whatever. These are the only ones that fit the bill.s >TF FWIW, Swiss German (PC) keyboards don't have "". Neither do they have4 any other uppercased letter with an umlaut, nor "".  H OTOH the ATM at my bank is all uppercase, and _does_ have "" etc, which< means I can enter addresses respecting umlauts, when needed.  F (I will note that I can get the German and French accented characters J perfectly on a _proper_ keyboard, even a US one, with the Compose key:-) )   [snip] ___m
 Paul Sture Switzerland"   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:55:35 +0100a/ From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>h9 Subject: Re: HP admits it will kill VMS if merger suceedsn4 Message-ID: <VA.00000516.1edcd81a@bluewin.delete.ch>  E In article <3C3E0AF8.4C4A7665@blueyonder.co.uk>, Tim Llewellyn wrote:: [snip] > D > You've met VMS systems that require operator input during booting? > Thats smelly IMHO. ><6 Bad clock batteries resulting in the date/time prompt?  < > You obviously need a kbd and console terminal of some sortB > available in case of hardware problems with the server. However,= > if you have a rack of servers, you only really need one kbde: > and console, or some sort of keyboard/monitor switch, or( > a remote console management package... > > We have quite a few systems without console terminals. We have? a trolley with a VT to serve that purpose. Not just for consoler< work, but to talk to disk controllers, terminal servers etc. ___i
 Paul Sture Switzerlande   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jan 2002 08:44:00 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.120519.killspam.00c7 (Wayne Sewell)hN Subject: movies or books (was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans. Message-ID: <0rHkCuReBFuK@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  f In article <20020113080716.28d39336.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> writes: > On 12 Jan 2002 23:24:00 GMTl4 > wl@tawanna.nowhere.there (Wolfgang Liebich) wrote: > O > WL> "Metropolis" by Fritz Lang. The book (written by Thea v. Harbour) is justeK > WL> mindblowingly bad (IMHO). I couldn't bring myself to finish the book.n3 > WL> The movie is waaay better than the book IMHO.l > D > 	IIRC correctly the book was derived from the movie - I will agree= > that this usually makes a book that is worse than the film.a    L Over the years, I have observed this to be the general case.  Whichever cameJ first, book or movie, is usually better.  Whichever was derived is usuallyN worse.  Books derived from movies almost always suck, because they are usually4 a quick hack to cash in on the movie's popularity.         -- -O ===============================================================================cM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxx@: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)jO ===============================================================================>N Sparky (from Bring It On): "In cheerleading, we throw people in the air.  Fat  	people don't go as high."   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:09 +0100>/ From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>l Subject: Re: OT: Net humor4 Message-ID: <VA.00000513.1d1f8165@bluewin.delete.ch>  H In article <3C3E0A23.C9245E34@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLean wrote:. > My thanks to Paul Sture for telling me aboutH > http://www.myths.com/~dpm/good-sigs.txt which contains a collection of > ..sigs and usenet humor. >f5 It's now at  http://www.myths.com/~dpm/good-sigs.htmli > 9 > From: cdrovers@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Rovers)f# > Newsgroups: alt.sysadmin.recoveryf< > Organization: University of Waterloo Computer Science Club > D >         ---------------- hit any user to continue ---------------- >  Gotta love that. I quite like:  9 Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.misc,comp.sys.mac.gamesa' From: pizor@lclark.edu (Tovarich Pizor) 0 Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR  J 31 Octal == 25 Decimal, thus 31 Oct == 25 Dec, thus Halloween == Christmas   Did you also spot in there:   . "You're welcome, John McLean of SwissOnline" ?  8 Also, one from the past, which went something like this:  C Moving home and meeting the new neighbours? NEVER let them you knowdB ANYTHING about computers. Tell 'em you're an accountant or tax man: and you can spend your weekends free of their PC problems. ___s
 Paul Sture Switzerlanda   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jan 2002 04:47:40 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)y3 Subject: Re: Please make the subject line pertinentg3 Message-ID: <FUuOzToH6Y24@eisner.encompasserve.org>h   John McLean wrote:  G > The situation right now makes it very difficult to decide which postsa > may be of interest to me,.  @ The problem I see is that _this_ thread has a header that reads:   > Newsgroups: comp.os.vms     D whereas the most wandering topic(s) currently seems to be the resultE of cross-posting between multiple newsgroups.  Lots of people who are @ contributing to the blurring of topics never saw John's request.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 10:48:31 GMTh) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>-Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was  Re:     The :' Message-ID: <3C418248.2F9861C4@ev1.net>n   Peter da Silva wrote:s > @ > In article <bruce-86F3B4.10533510012002@news.paradise.net.nz>,' > Bruce Hoult  <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:qG > > All the Mac browsers I've used do "open in new window" if you clickdD > > while holding the "command" key.  Much faster than using a menu. > 2 > That's a middle-mouse click in Netscape on UNIX. > K > > Also, the current version of IE lets you do command-shift-click to opena+ > > in a new window behind the current one.@ > + > What does hyper-meta-cokebottle-click do?c > A Like most things in Windoze, it probably causes a system crash...e   --  ? +-------------------------------------------------------------+H? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   | ? +-------------------------------------------------------------+a   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 10:49:50 GMT ) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>tX Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:  The dem' Message-ID: <3C418297.FE832A4F@ev1.net>    Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:> > $ > On Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:01:18 +1300& > Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org> wrote: > M > BH> Why is it that two (or three?) mouse buttons is the *right* number, but K > BH> a somewhat larger number of possible modifier key combinations is tooh" > BH> many?  Where is the optimum? > I >         Simple, I can *see* the mouse buttons and *know* that they have>H > something to do with pointer related actions. Three buttons is optimalG > because that's how many fingers I have available for pressing buttonso4 > while the thumb and little finger guide the mouse. > C >         I sometimes wonder about the feasibility of a combinatione2 > microwriter and mouse though (drag an x to ...). > F In one of their April issues, BYTE magazine featured an ASCII mouse...0 yep, a mouse with a full-ASCII keyboard on it!!!   -- I? +-------------------------------------------------------------+e? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |e? +-------------------------------------------------------------+i   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 17:23:13 GMT ' From: "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii@mail.com>u Subject: SYSMAN> STARTUP( Message-ID: <3C41C277.2C076639@mail.com>  G How long has one been able to define layered product startup proceduresr
 like this:  6 SYSMAN> STARTUP ENABLE FILE FOR$LPMAIN_043_STARTUP.COM   in VMS?I   -- b C.W.Holeman II  cwhii@acm.org				http://emle.org- http://also.as/cwhii		http://JulianLocals.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:20:35 +0100  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>4 Subject: TCPIP  configuration problems and questions& Message-ID: <3C417B93.2060107@home.nl>  I I have a small webserver (VMS 7.3, TCPIP 5.1 with all ecos) running, and  # I want to tune my TCPIP parameters.bH For those of you who were complaining about the difficult NCL commands,  just read on ...  ? I started with the SET (CONFIGURATION) PROTOCOL TCP parameters.-E The manual is very clear, for instance the /QUOTA parameter sets the e "TCP message queue size" .F That's nice to know, but what is this queue ? Is it the window size ? I There is no explanation to be found anywhere in the manual. I changed it g' from the default 4096 to 8192 at first.e  F We asked software support what this parameter is, and they advised us 1 the read the "Tuning and Troubleshooting" manual. C I got the latest version from the Compaq support site, and started aF reading. Nothing there of course, until I read section. 2.2.1.3 where H there is talk of transmit and receive buffers. I was refered to section G 10.2.16, where things would be explained. That's great, for one little t' problem. There is no section 10.2.16...   G But I studied the whole manual (I don't give up that easily), and came -C to the conclusion that the VMS commandline interface is for simple iH configuration only. If you realy want to configure TCPIP, you need Unix  style utilities.  I Specially the sysconfig utility is the one you need to tune TCPIP. There .C were a lot of parameters that according to the manual did not have <I optimal default parameters, and I changed all of them to the recommended   values."  D That worked ! Download speed was more than doubled. I also found my ? Quota parameter again, but now it was called TCP_sendspace and iH TCP_recvspace. They had a value of 61440, why I don't know. And I still  don't know what they are.t  I The other problem I now have is that I don't know if my new settings are g7 permanent. The manual states in section 2.1.4 that the tH "/etc/sysconfigtab" subsystem attribute database file is altered by the F changes I made with "sysconfig -r" commands. Mmmmmmm. But I'm running  VMS 7.3, not Tru64 7.3.t  A Section 2.1.5 suggests that changes made with "sysconfig -r" are  F temporary, and will be lost after a reboot. So section 2.1.4 says the F changes are saved in a configuration file, and section 2.1.5 says the H changes are not permanent, but fails to mention how we should make them 
 permanent !?!r  H The rest of the manual is about all kind of nice utilities that you can H only use after defining foreign commands. And needless to say they have  unix style interfaces.  H I've mentioned it before, DECnet-plus is a bit difficult to get used to E in the beginnning, but it is very methodical once you understand the  H logic. TCPIP on the other hand is a hodgepodge of poorly documented VMS D style commands, unix style commands, and not or partly to VMS-style I ported unix utilities. If TCPIP is suppose to become the protocol of the tB future, could we please, please, get a consistent well structured G management interface with the same qualities and logic as NCL ? With a g8 good set of documentation if it is not to much trouble ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:09 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>h+ Subject: Re: who else got the VMS brochure?t4 Message-ID: <VA.00000512.1d1f815b@bluewin.delete.ch>  J In article <vptq3ugbj4g3q2krd577p0d7q4l71hnl1j@4ax.com>, Alan Greig wrote:B > On Wed, 09 Jan 2002 21:47:50 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian! > Schenkenberger, VAXman-) wrote:h > j > >In article <1v1%7.470$5Y4.14095@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> writes:P > >>The brochure is the latest VMS brochure, it is designed for the sales folks,5 > >>partner and Compaq to distribute to any audience.f > >>F > >>You received a copy because you are in the VMS customer data base. > >>P > >>The photographs come from the corporate graphics library.  I do not know anyO > >>of the people in the pictures, but I usually don't in any brochure from anya > >>company. > >> > >>Warm Regards,e > >> > >>suer > >t > >eN > >"When was this brochure mailed?", bellowed the fellow that hasn't seen one. > D > Cover letter with my copy is dated December 10, 2001 and signed byH > Mark Gorham. Envelope is postmarked "Royal Viking Post, Copenhagen DK" > Stamped Received 22-DEC-2001.o  H Mine didn't have a date, but came from Roissy, France (Charles de GaulleH airport is there). Coincidentally A hotel in Roissy was where I attendedH my first seminar about Digital Storage Architecture, RMS Journalling and Clusters back in 1983.  I Note for Larry: I still have my copy but it accompanies me to a local barr9 or two, where it has stimulated considerable interest :-). ___h
 Paul Sture Switzerlandt   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:52:04 -0500a* From: Chuck Chopp <ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com>$ Subject: Re: Windows version of DCL?+ Message-ID: <3C41BB33.31EF6317@rtfmcsi.com>e  & "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" wrote:  Z > In article <3C3E428C.EBFD5695@rtfmcsi.com>, Chuck Chopp <ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com> writes: > >RM wrote: > >-= > >> Is there a version of DCL that will run on a Windows PC?  > ><2 > >http://www.advsyscon.com/products/xlnt/xlnt.asp > >oH > >XLNT was originally billed as "DCL on WinNT and Win9x".  It has sinceB > >grown into something slightly different but still very familiarD > >looking.  Another alternative that will seem familiar is WinBatchK > >[http://www.winbatch.com]; although it is not explicitly DCL on Windows,5J > >it is still very easy to use and will seem very DCL-like in appearance. >kB > So, now you're a sleazy advertising pawn of that *organization*? >l5 > Don't promote crap here that doesn't foot the bill.a >   O Now what exactly prompted this less than less-than-cordial reply to my posting?   Z I'm not interested in a pissing contest here, but the lack of manners frequently exhibitedY in the Usenet news groups leads to a much less civilized forum for the exchange of usefultX information and ideas.  People tend to write things that they generally would not say to[ somebody else in a face-to-face conversation, and the whole thing degenerates into a morassu of useless arguments.q  \ I was simply offering up an answer in response to a question about whether or not there is aU version of DCL that wil run on a Windows PC.  The person posting the question did nots[ provide any further details about what the want to do, such as porting existing DCL scriptsuY to a Windows PC, or perhaps was just looking for a shell/script programming language that [ would seem "familiar" based on previous experience with DCL.  Given the lack of descriptione[ as what the intended use was, I felt justified in posting a reply with links to 2 differentrX products that might be of interest to him/her [cannot determine gender from the initials* "RM" and from the poster's email address].  W Now, would you please explain the accusation that you made regarding my being a "sleazyeX advertising pawn of that *organization*", because I'm really being hit from a blind side\ here.  The I.T. industry is quite large and "that *organization*" is not a highly publicized' name that I'm able to readily identify.f  \ As for an accusation of "sleazy", I don't believe that you and I have ever met in person andX I know that I typically reserve judgement of somebody's character until I've met them inZ person or have at least had a long term association with them via telephone calls & email.Z I certainly expect the same courtesy to be offered in return.  What justifies your hastily rendered judgement?o  R As for an accusation of being an "advertising pawn", the last time I checked I was\ self-employed and nobody pulls my strings but myself.  Do you know something about me that I don't know?   Z Are you somehow referring to the fact that somehow my news client made a double posting on[ this thread?  Netscape Messenger does occasionally "go out to lunch" when posting a messages[ and the only way to get control back is to click the "Cancel" button for the send operationr[ that was hung up & then try to send the message again.  Sometimes, this results in a doubler posting.  Y As for the mentioned products being "crap that does not foot the bill", I certainly don'tT\ see you offering up any suggestions of your own, and you certainly aren't providing any sortX of meaningful critical analysis of *any* of the 3 products that have been recommended inY replies to the original message in this thread.  Given that you won't find a 100% perfect [ implementation of "DCL on Windows" because Windows isn't VMS, I felt perfectly justified inaW offering up suggestions for scripting languages on Windows that might also be perfectly X acceptable to somebody who is willing to work with a scripting language that is at least. "DCL like" in its syntax & language structure.  [ Unless you've been in more direct communication with the person who started this thread, orc\ unless you are a mind reader, I find it hard to believe that your reply to my post qualifiesZ as any sort of constructive criticism.  Constructive criticism is something that I have no problem dealing with.u  - Have you actually used any of these products?   W Do you actually have a rational reason, through your own personal experiences, for your W statement regarding the quality & applicability of these particular pieces of software?n  \ Or, is your response purely rhetorical and coming from a "holier than thou" attititude basedS on the fact that somebody actually mentioned "Windows" in a VMS-related news group.a  Z I myself earn my living doing consulting work & software development on several platforms,W including OpenVMS on VAX and Alpha systems, NetWare, Linux and, yes, Windows platforms.eY None of those other platforms comes close to matching the elegance of VMS, but then again [ the VMS-related contract work has been steadily dwindling for the past several years unless0X you are willing to relocate every 3 to 6 or 6 to 12 months.  I don't know about you, but[ I've found that staying profitably self-employed has been helped immensely by branching outaX and working with multiple operating systems and computing platforms.  At least I had theY benefit of "cutting my teeth" on VMS 4.x and doing all of my early software development &lU system management work on VMS.  It certainly leads to a much different perspective onR\ computing than what you find in the typical "windows weenie" who has only ever known Windows) and that is all that they ever will know.t     Regards,   Chucke -- Chuck Choppg  8 ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com            http://www.rtfmcsi.com0                                   ICQ # 22321532@ RTFM Consulting Services Inc.     864 801 2795 voice & voicemail2 103 Autumn Hill Road              864 801 2774 fax4 Greer, SC  29651                  800 774 0718 pager7                                   8007740718@skytel.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:09 +0100t/ From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>.Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise    of comp=4 Message-ID: <VA.00000511.1d1f8151@bluewin.delete.ch>  C In article <3C3AF59C.E2BE1C6E@hda.hydro.com>, Terje Mathisen wrote:h  G > I'm not vain enough to believe that I couldn't have a satisfying life-I > without producing anything at all of value (to the rest of society), as<F > long as I had a good supply of SF books and  problems/brain teasers. >.J > (How's that for a convoluted sentence? It falls far short of last week'sH > "I couldn't disagree less...", but not too bad for a norwegian guy :-) > J Not bad at all :-) That "I couldn't disagree less..." sentence truly gave  me a headache!  J Have a stab at the following. Don't worry if you struggle as I can assure < you that many whose mother tongue is English find it tricky.    1 REASONS WHY THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE IS HARD TO LEARN * 1) The bandage was wound around the wound.( 2) The farm was used to produce produce.: 3) The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.' 4) We must polish the Polish furniture.a. 5) He could lead if he would get the lead out.; 6) The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.PB 7) Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present.i3 8) A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.c/ 9) When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.,# 10) I did not object to the object.o. 11) The insurance was invalid for the invalid.7 12) There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.u0 13) They were too close to the door to close it.9 14) The buck does funny things when the does are present.w9 15) A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.n< 16) To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.- 17) The wind was too strong to wind the sail.n3 18) After a number of injections my jaw got number.a7 19) Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.h6 20) I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.7 21) How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend?t  I Let's face it - English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant,aC nor ham in hamburger; neither, apple nor pine in pineapple. EnglishoJ muffins weren't invented in England, or French fries in France. SweetmeatsD are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat. We takeB English for granted. But if we explore its paradoxes, we find thatF quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square and a guinea pig is$ neither from Guinea nor is it a pig.  G And why is it that writers write, but fingers don't fing, grocers don'taG groce and hammers don't ham? If the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't.E the plural of booth beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So one moose, 2 meese?s  H One index, 2 indices? Doesn't it seem crazy that you can make amends butJ not one amend. If you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all butJ one of them, what do you call it? If teachers taught, why didn't preachersG praught? If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?@D Sometimes I think all the English speakers should be committed to anF asylum for the verbally insane. In what language do people recite at aF play and play at a recital? Ship by truck and send cargo by ship? Have# noses that run and feet that smell?o  J How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same, while a wise man and aG wise guy are opposites? How can overlook and oversee be opposites,while I quite a lot and quite a few are alike? Have you ever run into someone whorE was combobulated, gruntled, ruly or peccable? And where are all those3@ people who ARE spring chickens or who would ACTUALLY hurt a fly?  I You have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language in which your house G can burn up as it burns down, in which you fill in a form by filling it G out and in which an alarm goes off by going on. English was invented bysG people, not computers, and it reflects the creativity of the human race H (which, of course, isn't a race at all). That is why, when the stars areA out, they are visible. However, when the lights are out, they aresG invisible. Why, when I wind up my watch, I start it, but when I wind upm this essay, I end it?d ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerlando   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jan 2002 14:53:22 GMT& From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr)Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise    of compt; Message-ID: <slrna42usj.c55.stanb@citadel.metropolis.local>-  / On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:09 +0100, Paul Sture  % <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> wrote:oJ >Let's face it - English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant, >nor ham in hamburger; -             ^^^^^^^a% That's from the German - "Hamburg"!  m8 From "Hamburg steak" - a steak made from chopped beef...   -- e Cheers,  Stan Barr  stanb@dial.pipex.como   The future was never like this!l   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 07:56:21 -0500L% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>IY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise of compaq l* Message-ID: <3C4183E6.683FA0@videotron.ca>   Paul Sture wrote: K > Let's face it - English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant,f= > nor ham in hamburger; neither, apple nor pine in pineapple.@   Long live Cobol !s   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:27:53 GMTt' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>fY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise of compaq  ) Message-ID: <3C41886E.25389EA1@yahoo.com>a   Paul Sture wrote:l >  ... snip ... > K > Let's face it - English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant,cE > nor ham in hamburger; neither, apple nor pine in pineapple. EnglishnL > muffins weren't invented in England, or French fries in France. SweetmeatsF > are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat. We takeD > English for granted. But if we explore its paradoxes, we find thatH > quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square and a guinea pig is& > neither from Guinea nor is it a pig.
  ... snip ...d  B I keep telling people that English muffins are neither English nor muffins :-)r   -- e@ Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.u=    (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified) 0    mailto:uce@ftc.gov  (for spambots to harvest)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 06:56:52 +0000u8 From: "A. G. McDowell" <mcdowella@mcdowella.demon.co.uk>O Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dema4 Message-ID: <dtkFYLA0+SQ8EwoS@mcdowella.demon.co.uk>  F In article <a1qlk9$s7ha3$1@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de>, Roland Hutchinson! <rolands.spamtrap@usa.net> writess >dC >As a card-carrying Mac and Linux fanatic, I hate to have to point n@ >this out, but: Microsoft has for some time now been conducting F >extensive usability research.  See www.microsoft.com/usability .  It B >wouldn't surprise me to learn that they are actually outspending  >Apple on this work. T >mE >Although I have no idea how, or how much, of this research actually  G >trickles over into product design at Microsoft, I find it frightening gE >to contemplate that without Microsoft's army of usability engineers e* >their products might be even less usable. >s@ Microsoft have long been spending loads of money in all sorts ofG research, with quite a few big names ending up working for them in somecG way or another. One clue to the remaining usability problems comes from 5 'Software For Use' by Constantine and Lockwood, P 14:    "lF A common outcome of usability testing, however refined and successful,E is that many of the findings from the tests end up being ignored. TheaD same can often be said for the recommendations of usability and userG interface design experts when their opinions are sought relatively lateaH in the development process. In either case, the problems uncovered oftenG do not get corrected because the necessary changes are deemed to be tootG extensive or expensive. Those changes that do get made are likely to befD the more superficial ones because those are the easiest to effect inH competed code. The end result is that relatively superficial or cosmetic; changes are made to solve deeper problems that are actually? architectural in nature. "-  B Another problem is (as noted earlier re Apple) retaining backwardsH compatibility with decisions that "seemed like a good idea at the time".  C Perhaps in ten or twenty years time we will find out what influenceqH corporate strategy has had on this research. There is the story that, inH the days of their dominance, IBM scooped years of university research byH a few days: it was an independent reinvention of work they had done longB ago but did not release until they had to, to gain priority. If myF memory holds up, the field was protocol analysis via state machines. IF believe that one of the outcomes of the suits against IBM was mandatedG release of some of their research. Has anything similar been agreed forh> Microsoft? Anybody know more about the history of this at IBM? -- y A. G. McDowell   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 10:56:43 GMTo) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>>O Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dema& Message-ID: <3C418432.A6D376C@ev1.net>   Roland Hutchinson wrote: > F > On Friday 11 January 2002 20:46, Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org>wrote: > C > > In article <3381.776T2711T7025736@sky.bus.com>, "Charlie Gibbs"a > > <cgibbs@sky.bus.com> wrote:c >  > >sH > > What Apple does (or at least did 15 years ago) and which pretty muchG > > no one else does (then or now) is implement the same functionallitynH > > in every reasonable way they can think of and then *TEST* it on realC > > people and carefully record and analyse to see which techniquese# > > cause the fewest user mistakes.a > >uD > > Of course no one does this because it's ten times more expensiveD > > than just implementing the first thing you think of and stopping
 > > there. > C > As a card-carrying Mac and Linux fanatic, I hate to have to pointB@ > this out, but: Microsoft has for some time now been conductingF > extensive usability research.  See www.microsoft.com/usability .  ItB > wouldn't surprise me to learn that they are actually outspending > Apple on this work.: > @ Well, Mi$uck has to decide *which* features to copy from the MacA interface next... So I guess it has to do the usability research.  >eE > Although I have no idea how, or how much, of this research actuallyaG > trickles over into product design at Microsoft, I find it frighteningoE > to contemplate that without Microsoft's army of usability engineers + > their products might be even less usable.p > @ After the "blue screen of death" appears, *not* much of the userA interface is helpful at all anyway. Maybe Mi$uck could just spendl= a few man-hours figuring out how to prevent their system fromr> crashing... IMHO, if you took a user survey, fixing the system7 where it would crash half as often would be a winner...    -- U? +-------------------------------------------------------------+c? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |i? +-------------------------------------------------------------+-   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:00:00 GMTu) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> O Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demf' Message-ID: <3C4184F9.EF4EFB42@ev1.net>e   Christian Bau wrote: > , >      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...] > G > The last bit was someone posting how unintuitive the use of the shifteH > button together with a mouse click is, and that this was a huge designH > mistake that Apple made. I think this is nonsense and I posted that. IJ > may be right, wrong, opinionated or whatever. Fact is that the MacintoshJ > uses shift-clicks extensively and Macintosh users don't complain that itJ > is non-intuitive, and Windows uses shift-clicks just as much and WindowsD > users don't complain either, and Linux users can feel free to postJ > whether Linux uses shift-clicks, but I bet it does, and I bet they don't > complain.' >eC There is some way to use a two-button mouse with Linux, and IIRC itaD involves using the keyboard with the mouse in some way... I can give? *no* details, because I have a three-button mouse with my Linux  box...   --  ? +-------------------------------------------------------------+l? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |n? +-------------------------------------------------------------+i   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:04:21 GMTf) From: Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net>yO Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The deme' Message-ID: <3C4185FD.A48924E5@ev1.net>   
 Jim wrote: > H > In article <5ihv3u00jqbv5pdqncdp5qmmhqa9uj6c7s@news.newsguy.com>, Paul > Guertin <pg@sff.net> wrote:o > F > > Coming soon from Apple: the monitor with just one knob. Turn it toF > > adjust brightness, hold shift while turning it to adjust contrast,E > > use it with command to set the vertical hold, and poke at it with $ > > the mouse to degauss the screen. > >nE > > > > Apple got many things right with the MacOS interface, but thea, > > > > shift-click thing isn't one of them. > B > I totally agree with this.   The reason you have to shift-click,F > control-click and command-click is purely emotional:  to do it rightF > requires a 2 (or more) button mouse.   Two button mice are seen as a; > "Windows Thing".   Can't have a "Windows Thing" on a Mac!e > F Need I point out that there was *no* such thing as Windows from Mi$uck$ when the Macintosh was introduced???  E About the "one knob" monitor...it is a reality. I have a Sony monitor I with a *single* control for all the functions except on/off. This control D will pop a menu on the monitor if you push it straight in. Then you F can rock the control in one of four directions to move an indicator on5 the menu system...push in again to make a selection. r > H > Stubbornly clinging to single button mice is just one of many gripes IB > have with Apple.   Another is their sky-high prices for mediocreH > hardware.   That's why I'm running OS 10 on a Umax S900 - a Mac Clone! > # Too slow for a computer now...IMHO.o   --  ? +-------------------------------------------------------------+r? |     Charles and Francis Richmond     <richmond@plano.net>   |l? +-------------------------------------------------------------+r   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 12:50:11 +0100t, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>K Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demv7 Message-ID: <20020113125011.6e21fab6.steveo@eircom.net>a    On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:00:00 GMT* Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> wrote:   CR> Christian Bau wrote:G CR> There is some way to use a two-button mouse with Linux, and IIRC ittH CR> involves using the keyboard with the mouse in some way... I can giveC CR> *no* details, because I have a three-button mouse with my Linux 
 CR> box...  A 	There are two ways to get middle buttone effects under Linux (orfC anything else with XFree86). You can enable the emulateThreeButtons E (beware CamelCapsErrors) option to make clicking both together act asaH the third button or there are a number of utilities that map key presses to mouse clicks.   -- nH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jan 2002 16:59:06 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>K Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The dem - Message-ID: <874rlqiq3p.fsf@prep.synonet.com>p  : Christian Bau <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> writes:  E > You are making up strawmen here. If you have a system with two mice0A > that serve different purposes then you are leaving the realm ofYF > intuitiveness anyway, so nothing of this discussion applies anymore.  D Common config for mapping and GIS work. One is used for the menu and6 'normal' mousey stuff, the other for input of XY info.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.o@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 16:35:52 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>tK Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: The demu& Message-ID: <3C41A958.A465257@aaa.com>   OK. 6 But then, would not one of them be a "rellative" mouse8 as we are used to (you can pick it up and put it down in4 another place without moving the pointer on-screen).  8 The other mouse would possobly be an "absolute" pointing8 device with a hair-cross to enter, e.g, map coordinates.  6 Most users of this configuration would know what mouse to use for what work.h  & Can't we just close this thread soon ?   Jan-Erik Sderholm.e   Paul Repacholi wrote:i > < > Christian Bau <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> writes: > G > > You are making up strawmen here. If you have a system with two mice C > > that serve different purposes then you are leaving the realm ofaH > > intuitiveness anyway, so nothing of this discussion applies anymore. > F > Common config for mapping and GIS work. One is used for the menu and8 > 'normal' mousey stuff, the other for input of XY info. >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.nB >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 08:07:16 +0100n, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )n7 Message-ID: <20020113080716.28d39336.steveo@eircom.net>    On 12 Jan 2002 23:24:00 GMT 2 wl@tawanna.nowhere.there (Wolfgang Liebich) wrote:  M WL> "Metropolis" by Fritz Lang. The book (written by Thea v. Harbour) is just I WL> mindblowingly bad (IMHO). I couldn't bring myself to finish the book. 1 WL> The movie is waaay better than the book IMHO.g  B 	IIRC correctly the book was derived from the movie - I will agree; that this usually makes a book that is worse than the film.    -- SH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:07:02 +0000 (UTC)t0 From: "Rupert Pigott" <Darkb00ng@btinternet.com>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )p/ Message-ID: <a1s0pl$jan$1@helle.btinternet.com>o  7 Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in messagei1 news:20020111074725.6aa55981.steveo@eircom.net...o$ > On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:39:49 +01006 > Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote: > B > TM> Not _nearly_ as bad as current movies about the same things. >rC > Can you cite any examples where movies have been better than evenrI > quite bad books in the same genre ? I am quite sure that there are *no*yG > science fiction films that improve on novels with similar topics (letf$ > alone the ones they are based on).  0 I'll bite : Blade Runner (the original release).  @ Perhaps I'm saying that because I saw the film BEFORE I read the2 book. But The film had a lot more bite to it IMHO.   Cheers,e Rupert   ------------------------------  ! Date: Sun, 13 Jan 02 11:09:51 GMT  From: jmfbahciv@aol.comnY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )w+ Message-ID: <a1s1f6$e2o$5@bob.news.rcn.net>   7 In article <20020113080716.28d39336.steveo@eircom.net>,m0    Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> wrote: >On 12 Jan 2002 23:24:00 GMT3 >wl@tawanna.nowhere.there (Wolfgang Liebich) wrote:. >nJ >WL> "Metropolis" by Fritz Lang. The book (written by Thea v. Harbour) is  justJ >WL> mindblowingly bad (IMHO). I couldn't bring myself to finish the book.2 >WL> The movie is waaay better than the book IMHO. >bC >	IIRC correctly the book was derived from the movie - I will agreem< >that this usually makes a book that is worse than the film. >eB "Miracle on 34th Street" was a book that was written with or afterD the movie.  IMO, both were the same.  IMO, the remakes of the movie 0 were worse than the book and the original movie.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.r   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jan 2002 17:41:55 GMT1 From: wl@tawanna.nowhere.there (Wolfgang Liebich)eY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re: Thedemise of compaq )uG Message-ID: <3c41c6e2$0$20976$5039e797@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at>-  7 In article <20020113080716.28d39336.steveo@eircom.net>,5/ 	Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> writes:  > On 12 Jan 2002 23:24:00 GMTe4 > wl@tawanna.nowhere.there (Wolfgang Liebich) wrote: > O > WL> "Metropolis" by Fritz Lang. The book (written by Thea v. Harbour) is just.K > WL> mindblowingly bad (IMHO). I couldn't bring myself to finish the book.p3 > WL> The movie is waaay better than the book IMHO.n > D > 	IIRC correctly the book was derived from the movie - I will agree= > that this usually makes a book that is worse than the film.w  I AFAIK Thea v. Harbour is responsible for the script for the film. I don'teI know if she wrote the book after the script or vice versa. But I'm rather # sure that the story comes from her. J IIRC an interview with Fritz Lang, reprintet in the "Falter", where he hadH said, "The premise of the story is ridiculous but I loved the machines".L Anyway - is there anyone out there who *does* know the book? I didn't finish it :-)   Ciao,e	 Wolfgang s   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:05:50 +0100m, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>V Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq )7 Message-ID: <20020113130550.5b01c771.steveo@eircom.net>:  " On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:09 +01000 Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> wrote:  M PS> Let's face it - English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant,n  C 	In honour of Frederick Brown - English is a crazy language, I like  it.d  G PS> nor ham in hamburger; neither, apple nor pine in pineapple. English N PS> muffins weren't invented in England, or French fries in France. SweetmeatsH PS> are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat. We takeF PS> English for granted. But if we explore its paradoxes, we find thatJ PS> quicksand can work slowly, boxing rings are square and a guinea pig is( PS> neither from Guinea nor is it a pig.   	Road works means it doesn't% 	Common sense isn't common or a sensea 	Hot dogs aren't (usually) dog 	Trust me (need I say more)." and one that puzzled me as a child 	Lloyds Bank as your executor   E 	I have long believed that English is a language well evolved for themH purpose of shading the truth, saying nothing in many words and providingB plausible deniability no matter what was said - in short politics.   -- oH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jan 2002 17:22:15 +0100O From: pmoreau@dev.ath.cena.fr (Patrick MOREAU, CENA Athis, Tel: 01.69.57.64.40)n, Subject: [AUDIO] Timidity V 2.11.1 available  Message-ID: <HT7d715RDJth@sable>   Hi all,i  ! a new update at the DECW archive:e  N Timidity Version 2.11.1 is now available. Timidity is a real time midi and modO files player running on VAXes and Alphas under VMS. The new version brings some O bugs correction, a way to convert mod files into midi ones, a better support oftN GS & XG SysEx etc ... You can build with EV6 optimizations on Alpha for better; performance (sucks only a few percent CPU on a DS10 6/466).d  & Take a look at http://decwarch.free.fr  * or http://decwarch.free.fr/audio.html#TIMI  * or http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/decw/  I The kit contains sources + sample config file, sound samples & midi files 1 + VMS Alpha binaries with MMOV and Motif support.    Enjoy !!   Patricke --O ===============================================================================hN pmoreau@ath.cena.fr  (CENA)     ______      ___   _           (Patrick MOREAU)4 moreau_p@decus.fr (DECUS)       / /   /     / /|  /|J CENA/Athis-Mons FRANCE         / /___/     / / | / |   __   __   __   __  N BP 205                        / /         / /  |/  |  |  | |__| |__  |__| |  |N 94542 ORLY AEROGARE CEDEX    / /   ::    / /       |  |__| | \  |__  |  | |__|N http://www.ath.cena.fr/~pmoreau/            http://www.multimania.com/pmoreau/O ===============================================================================r   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.024 ************************