0 INFO-VAX	Mon, 14 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 25      Contents:) Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive ) Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive  Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment+ Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records  Re: Cable part # needed 3 Re: comp.sys.dec, FINAL NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal 3 Re: comp.sys.dec, FINAL NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal 3 Re: comp.sys.dec, FINAL NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal " Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business- Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" - Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms" 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 5 Hobby SCSI Cluster - was Re: Waiting for PKA0 to poll & Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monsterI Re: movies or books (was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  Re: Selling VMS licenses Re: Selling VMS licenses Re: Selling VMS licensesP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dP Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The d Re: SYSMAN> STARTUP  Re: SYSMAN> STARTUP " Re: vms emacs: last call? the end?" Re: vms emacs: last call? the end? Waiting for PKA0 to poll% why case independence came into being  Re: Windows version of DCL? P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise of compaq P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise of compaq F Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demF Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dem  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:51:21 GMT ) From: martin.hunt@inl.co.nz (Martin Hunt) 2 Subject: Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive6 Message-ID: <3c420109.7375755@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz>  2 On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:28:11 -0600, Shael Richmond <ksrich@bellsouth.net> wrote:    >Martin Hunt wrote:  > G >> I am currently playing around with a Quantum DLT4500 tape drive with G >> loader. If I dismount a tape, the next tape in the loader is loaded. H >> But, is there any way of loading a specific tape, such as the tape inB >> slot 4? Or, as I suspect, would I have to purchase a product to >> support this feature?4 >> It would be nice to be able to do something like:! >> $ MOUNT/FOREIGN MKA500 /SLOT=4  >>   > A >I'm not sure which model that is, but if it's similar to a TL891 = >you can change the settings on the unit to be random and not @ >sequential.  Mine came with MRU(Robot) which allows you to load> >any slot you want.  There is also a freeware program MLU too. >   ? Thanks, I will give MLU a go - it is on the VMS Freeware CDROM.   + Thanks to everyone else who responded, too.    >Shael >  >      ---  Martin Hunt  Systems Administrator  Independent Newspapers Limited
 Wellington New Zealand    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 01:23:29 GMT ) From: martin.hunt@inl.co.nz (Martin Hunt) 2 Subject: Re: Accessing tapes in DLT4500 tape drive7 Message-ID: <3c423172.19768215@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz>   E On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:51:21 GMT, martin.hunt@inl.co.nz (Martin Hunt)  wrote:  3 >On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:28:11 -0600, Shael Richmond  ><ksrich@bellsouth.net> wrote: >  >>Martin Hunt wrote: >>H >>> I am currently playing around with a Quantum DLT4500 tape drive withH >>> loader. If I dismount a tape, the next tape in the loader is loaded.I >>> But, is there any way of loading a specific tape, such as the tape in C >>> slot 4? Or, as I suspect, would I have to purchase a product to  >>> support this feature? 5 >>> It would be nice to be able to do something like: " >>> $ MOUNT/FOREIGN MKA500 /SLOT=4 >>>  >>B >>I'm not sure which model that is, but if it's similar to a TL891> >>you can change the settings on the unit to be random and notA >>sequential.  Mine came with MRU(Robot) which allows you to load ? >>any slot you want.  There is also a freeware program MLU too.  >> > @ >Thanks, I will give MLU a go - it is on the VMS Freeware CDROM. > C OK, I've got MLU sort of working - I was able to load a tape from a @ particular slot. But some of the other commands don't work - MLUE VERIFY gives the message "%MLU-F-BUGCHECK, internal inconsistancy". I A suspect that I haven't define the correct device type. There is a C logical that I have set (MLU_devnam) which I have set to TZ857, but D I'm not sure if this is correct. VMS knows it as a Quantum DLT4500 - it is a 5 tape stacker. 5 Has this got an equivalent Digital/Compaq model name?    ---  Martin Hunt  Systems Administrator  Independent Newspapers Limited
 Wellington New Zealand    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jan 2002 05:12:56 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment - Message-ID: <876666gdk7.fsf@prep.synonet.com>     david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes:  F > As to Itanium they had Solaris ported to it before just about anyoneF > else had ported their OS but decided not to continue with it - which" > looks like a very good decision.  E So that adds up to SUN, SGI/MIPS and Dell as the list who have dumped  the itanic so far.     Yeah, must be the way to go...   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jan 2002 19:48:58 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment 3 Message-ID: <ovJtAe$jajtU@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <876666gdk7.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:" > david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes: > G >> As to Itanium they had Solaris ported to it before just about anyone G >> else had ported their OS but decided not to continue with it - which # >> looks like a very good decision.  > G > So that adds up to SUN, SGI/MIPS and Dell as the list who have dumped  > the itanic so far.   >   > Yeah, must be the way to go...  B The number of major vendors still saying they will support ItaniumB is greater than the number who ever said they would support Alpha.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:03:51 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> ' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment , Message-ID: <3C4266B4.A863F76A@videotron.ca>   Paul Repacholi wrote: G > So that adds up to SUN, SGI/MIPS and Dell as the list who have dumped  > the itanic so far.    M Compaq also dropped Itanic when the project to port Tru64 to IA64 was killed.  :-) :-) ;-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:10:17 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> ' Subject: Re: Alpha Itanium Advertisment , Message-ID: <3C426836.B215BB79@videotron.ca>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:I > > So that adds up to SUN, SGI/MIPS and Dell as the list who have dumped  > > the itanic so far.  D > The number of major vendors still saying they will support ItaniumD > is greater than the number who ever said they would support Alpha.  K It also depends which ones stay with IA64.  If HP UX starts to go downhill, H then all that will be left will be Windows on IA64.  (VMS and Tandem areL inconsequential since with their low volumes, it would have been cheaper for3 Compaq to stick with the already developped Alpha).    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jan 2002 07:24:16 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>4 Subject: Re: Building large RMS file 250,000 records- Message-ID: <87wuylg7hb.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:    > "Ruslan R. Laishev" wrote:  # > > What is the file organization ?   C > It will be indexed with at least 3 keys (unique id, latitude, and  > waypoint name.  D > I have debated putting latitude-longitude as a key, but I think it > is a bit of a waste.  > > I want to be able to do a "start" at one point and scan in aC > particular order to extract all valid waypoints and stop when the  > range is past.  D > So if I use latitude as key, I can start at lat1, read all recordsE > by key:latitude until the latitude is greater than its upper limit.   G You may care to get the R-tree code out of Postgress and use that. This H will mean you need to index Lat and Long. Do you need your own Id? Can't you use the RFA?   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jan 2002 13:44:52 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)   Subject: Re: Cable part # needed3 Message-ID: <A7Q1fvrxdNC6@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <PVj08.22127$yC.2546569@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net>, "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org> writes: L > "Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-" <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message, > news:00A07FB5.0BC65D5A@SendSpamHere.ORG...I >> I have a BA356 with a fast-wide personality module.  I'm having a hell J >> of a time finding a right-angle SCSI cable so that I can connect to theI >> side 68 pin connector.  Does anybody know the DEC part number for such J >> a cable?  (or for that matter, a source and part number for a 3rd-party >> cable which will work?) > = > http://www.compaq.com/legacysupport/digital/pdf/clusuia.pdf  > D > Check page 9 for the breakdown.  I think you want the DS-BN21K-05. > N > Also check out http://www.techcable.com/html/cable.html and click on the DEC > SCSI link.  G http://www.scsi-cables.com/68-pin-cables.htm shows one in the middle of  the second row.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:27:23 GMT 4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>< Subject: Re: comp.sys.dec, FINAL NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal= Message-ID: <L4m08.26078$JF.202537@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>   > "Usenet Administration" <admin@ATEZTOD.AC.KR> wrote in message/ news:fgghpo7q5rfa7jmlyycqq1ygyujehcb@4ax.com... 4 > As many of you are aware, this newsgroup is slated2 > for removal on January 31st, 2002.  The vote was6 > taken at the end of last year, and there was a large0 > marjority who wants to see this group removed. > C > If you are a regular reader, you need to make other arrangements.   I You're welcome to visit www.openvms.org and www.tru64.org for your Compaq & enterprise OS and product discussions.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:39:11 GMT 2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>< Subject: Re: comp.sys.dec, FINAL NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal? Message-ID: <Pfm08.2891$WM6.822326@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com>   C In comp.sys.dec Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:   @ > "Usenet Administration" <admin@ATEZTOD.AC.KR> wrote in message1 > news:fgghpo7q5rfa7jmlyycqq1ygyujehcb@4ax.com... 5 >> As many of you are aware, this newsgroup is slated 3 >> for removal on January 31st, 2002.  The vote was 7 >> taken at the end of last year, and there was a large 1 >> marjority who wants to see this group removed.  >>D >> If you are a regular reader, you need to make other arrangements.  K > You're welcome to visit www.openvms.org and www.tru64.org for your Compaq ( > enterprise OS and product discussions.  C This removal bit is a hoax.  It's been hitting a lot of newsgroups.    	Zane    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jan 2002 16:05:37 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) < Subject: Re: comp.sys.dec, FINAL NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal3 Message-ID: <A1LKY5gAQsVP@eisner.encompasserve.org>   t In article <Pfm08.2891$WM6.822326@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> writes:E > In comp.sys.dec Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@mediaone.net> wrote:  > A >> "Usenet Administration" <admin@ATEZTOD.AC.KR> wrote in message 2 >> news:fgghpo7q5rfa7jmlyycqq1ygyujehcb@4ax.com...6 >>> As many of you are aware, this newsgroup is slated4 >>> for removal on January 31st, 2002.  The vote was8 >>> taken at the end of last year, and there was a large2 >>> marjority who wants to see this group removed. >>> E >>> If you are a regular reader, you need to make other arrangements.  > L >> You're welcome to visit www.openvms.org and www.tru64.org for your Compaq) >> enterprise OS and product discussions.  > E > This removal bit is a hoax.  It's been hitting a lot of newsgroups.   F In particular, the "removal" posts have followups set to the newsgroupC news.admin.net-abuse.email so that clueless responses will go there I (and only there) to disturb spamfighting. This is some not-yet-identified 1 spammer trying to retaliate for getting trounced.   D Of course Terry's and Zane's responses were not clueless, since theyD figured out the trick, but I post this to remind others for the next time.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:50:10 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> + Subject: Re: COMPAQ - Spin off VMS Business ' Message-ID: <3C424845.A8FDBDDF@fsi.net>    Bill Todd wrote: > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3C3FB58A.E6FEDB09@fsi.net...  >  > ...  > J > > Well, technically, "SET FILE/ENTER" produces the equivalent of a "softH > > link" - a new directory entry that point to the original file headerH > > ("inode", in UN*X-speak). No new file header ("inode") is allocated. > M > I'm no Unix expert, but I believe you have the definitions of hard and soft  > links reversed.   G Not according to the Solaris Admin. class I'm studying to get certified F to teach. According to the Sun documentation (and the head instructor,F who also is certified in Tru64), a "soft link" is exactly that: littleB more than a directory entry which points to an inode which is alsoB "linked" to at least one other directory entry. A "hard link" is aF directory entry which points to a "duplicate inode" (includes the sameF data as an existing inode which describes - except for the file name - an existing file).  I > > 1. In ODS, there is no linked list connecting all of the "aliases" to K > > the actual file itself. So, there's no way to find, for any given file, / > > all the aliases on a specific volume(-set).  > K > AFAIK the inode maintains a 'links count' that indicates *how many* links 1 > exist, but has no data to support finding them.   H At least on UN*X, an "alias" can be identified without digging TOO deep.H On ODS, you must match the "back-link FID" of the file header associatedE with a directory entry to the FID of the directory in which you found G it. A mismatch indicates an alias. No other mechanism is available, and E there is no indication of how many aliases may exist for a given file 	 (if any).   K > > 2. In UN*X-land, the "inode" - equivalent to a file header - does *NOT* L > > contain the filespec. Thus, if the directory entry is lost for the "realF > > file", it becomes very difficult to find the "beginning" of a file
 > > chain. > = > 'File chain'?  Are you confusing Unix's file structure with J > MS-DOS's/Win9x's, where there's no 'inode'-like structure at all and theJ > directory entry just points to the FAT entry for the file's start block?  ? For purposes as used here, "file chain" = "(set of) extent(s)". ) Substitute other synonyms as appropriate.0  pG > Unix inodes contain mostly the same information as an Index file filedG > header - just not the name.  So if you can find the inode, there's notN > problem ascertaining where the file starts (or anything else about it, other > than its name).e > A >  That's really only an issue for soft-links, though. Hard-linkssL > >  use an additional inode; so, at least a file can be called by an alias,E > > even if the original directory or directory entry for it is lost.o > . > Same hard/soft definition reversal as above.   Don't think so.r  H > As I said, I'm no Unix expert, so if I'm the one who's confused I hope > someone will enlighten me.  " Check the available documentation.   -- g David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systemsw http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/f   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 02:31:02 GMTE1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>E6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"' Message-ID: <3C4243CB.EC0E852A@fsi.net>g   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:e > [snip]E > But I'm probably underqualified. I've only been on the Board of one N > corporation and an advisor to one other. On the other hand, I daresay I haveD > damaged none of the organizations with which I've been associated!  C I guess until you've done some industry-wide damage on the scale ofnE DEC/Compaq, you'll remain "under"qualified (just invert the standards  and it sorta works).   -- n David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 03:27:34 GMT:4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>6 Subject: Re: Compaq's Notion of "Enterprise Platforms"= Message-ID: <Ges08.27544$JF.239466@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>   < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3C4243CB.EC0E852A@fsi.net...  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: 
 > > [snip]G > > But I'm probably underqualified. I've only been on the Board of oneeK > > corporation and an advisor to one other. On the other hand, I daresay I  haveF > > damaged none of the organizations with which I've been associated! >nE > I guess until you've done some industry-wide damage on the scale of-G > DEC/Compaq, you'll remain "under"qualified (just invert the standards  > and it sorta works).  E Then underqualified I shall remain, since I possess neither a nuclearg9 capability nor a long-range delivery system (or soapbox).@   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:41:28 +0100o1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>w: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC5 Message-ID: <3C41E2E8.3B4E90D6@swissonline.delete.ch>p   Paul Sture wrote:h > =d  H > In article <3C3EA1F9.7AC09FC2@mediasec.de>, Jan C. Vorbr=FCggen wrote:G > > > (c) seems to be the most attractive choice, until you realize howd. > > > vitally important portability really is. > > J > > Really? The problem I see with your case (c) is that somebody creates=  a filenJ > > with the language set to one value, then another person with a differ= ent J > > language setting tries to use a different-case version to access this=  file,J > > but fails because the case-mapping rules of the two languages are dif= ferent.o1 > > Of course, she can still use the correct-caseh > > version to access the file.t > >rJ > > I would be interested in an example where two languages have a lower-= caseJ > > letter - say "=E4" - and one upper-cases it to "=C4" and the other to=  "AE",; > > or whatever. These are the only ones that fit the bill.  > >mJ > FWIW, Swiss German (PC) keyboards don't have "=C4". Neither do they hav= e 8 > any other uppercased letter with an umlaut, nor "=DF". > =.  J > OTOH the ATM at my bank is all uppercase, and _does_ have "=C4" etc, wh= icht> > means I can enter addresses respecting umlauts, when needed. > =b  G > (I will note that I can get the German and French accented charactersiJ > perfectly on a _proper_ keyboard, even a US one, with the Compose key:-= ) )e > =     9 REPOSTING FROM ANOTHER THREAD - BUT FOR A GOOD REASON ...f  G After so many recent hydra-like threads that branch into topics totallytG unconnected to the subject heading, can I please ask that people try to E get back to the conventional netiquette of having a relevant title on  their post.4  E The situation right now makes it very difficult to decide which postsTH may be of interest to me, and I know that in future it will be difficultF to search for a particular posting buried deep within an inappropriate title.  G Before anyone else makes the statement, yes, I have been guilty of thisiG too.  I know how easy it is to quickly respond to someone and forget to H look at the title.  I'm certainly not blaming anyone; I'm just trying to get us all back on track.     G (As Larry K pointed out in c.o.v., many of the worst offenders are with"< messages that are cross-posted, so here's the request to the cross-postees.)a     John McLean   H PS.  I'm not having a go at you Paul.  I assume it took more people thanB you to change "Historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC" to a, discussion about umlauts on keyboards... ;-)   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jan 2002 23:12:39 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1t497$vp0$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>.  C In article <_N_%7.243287$m05.20780066@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,.) Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:xL >An interesting statement in that it certainly *appears* to suggest that forB >roman/English at least there *is* some reason to do case-folding.  D To me that just seems to say the design is US-centric, not the goal.   -- G@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans),   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jan 2002 23:20:38 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC1 Message-ID: <a1t4o6$vsq$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>s  N In article <2BQ%7.1629$Qz1.204836@news.xtra.co.nz>, AG <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
 >> # wc wordsm! >>   234936  234936 2486813 wordsa >> # grep '^[A-Z]' words | wci >>    24256   24256  237674   F >> So case is significant in about 1/10th of the words in the spelling >> dictionary.  B >> # grep '^[A-Z]' words | tr '[A-Z]' '[a-z]' | sort > /tmp/target >> # sort words > /tmp/words) >> # comm -12 /tmp/target /tmp/words | wcu >>     1322    1323    9641   + >> And 1300 of them have both cases listed.h  ; >  A few questions; how many of those words were the propera= >nouns, names of the places, personal names etc? Which don't,  >normally, have the other form.e  ( Well, going bythat example, about 21900.  ? >  The words listed in *both* cases are *obvious* cases arguingtE >for the case-insensitivity. After all, the dictionary authors needed-F >to include a duplicate just for the sake of a case-sensitive engines.  B I know the people who wrote that sofware. They had full control ofE the tools used to look up words in it, and specifically included both / cases because the case IS PART OF THE SPELLING.e  D That is the point. English is a case-sensitive language. "Danish" isE a language. "danish" is a pastry. "Polish" is a nationality. "polish" C is how you get silverware clean. "Turkey" is a country. "turkey" is0F a bird", and so on. If they wanted to take the easy way out they couldF have made it a case insensitive search and not bothered to include theB case in the dictionary, but that would be wrong. They have a "caseH insensitive" mode on the software that is used to search the dictionary, but it's not the default.l  H These are the same people, by the way, that I think you accused of being5 lazy by making the UNIX file system case-insensitive..   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)e   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jan 2002 23:29:50 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a1t59e$106j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  N In article <8OS%7.1686$Qz1.209009@news.xtra.co.nz>, AG <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote:I >I'm sure the (flogging the dead horse) example of [P/p]olish is known to % >practically everyone in this thread.e( >The question was - how routine that is?  F This morning I had a Hamburger and Turkey, yes, the whole country, and@ polished it off with a little Danish... boy he fought like heck!  M >As an aside, even in that particular case, how much confusion would it causerB >if someone, inadverntenly, misspelled the word with a wrong case?  F How mush cornfusion duz it caws if yew mispel a hole lot uv werds? EyeI half two reely try heart two may kit had two reader sin tense. Off courseaG icon duet, buddy park tickly half Tobruk up thew herds deaf errant lee.   L That paragraph started out misspelled but with normal word breaks, and endedH up with each word correctly spelled but the syllables were broken up and* reassembled. Which was easier to make out?  J The fact that a misspelling is unlikely to cause confusion is not a strong	 argument.    -- -@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)    ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jan 2002 23:33:45 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a1t5gp$10h2$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  N In article <P4Q%7.1619$Qz1.203891@news.xtra.co.nz>, AG <ang@xtra.co.nz> wrote:= >Because in your argument above you asked: 'Should that matchI >a file named "SS"?'  I I'm sorry, since I can't speak German I can't give you an example that istJ an actual word. That doesn't mean such examples don't exist. And since theI message you were replying to said pretty much that, you already know whataF I meant by that example and are obviously not interested in a rational discussion.p   -- c@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)/   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jan 2002 23:41:34 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a1t5ve$10jq$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  @ In article <78%%7.25451$jc.1483765@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,) Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:l6 >"Peter da Silva" <peter@taronga.com> wrote in message- >news:a1nnsq$29al$1@citadel.in.taronga.com...TJ >> And this is somehow more processor-intensive than handling full UnicodeG >> case conversion rules and locale management at the filesystem level?J  K >Absolutely.  Efficient case- (and character-synonym-) insensitive look-upssL >can be performed by storing names in a canonical form for look-up (plus theM >original form for presentation, though various compression techniques can beiL >applied to reduce the space overhead of this duplication if it's sufficientM >to worry about), converting the input name to that canonical form, and using97 >normal binary comparisons on, e.g., b-tree structures.o  K How can you have a single canonical form when the case conversion rules areP locale-dependent?6  K >'Consistency' is in the eye of the beholder.  I strongly suspect that mostnH >people (certainly most non-programmers) outside the Unix world consider >case-sensitivity inconsistent.5  H I suspect that most people never notice whether their file system treatsK "PETER" and "peter" as different files, and couldn't tell you if you asked.n  E >Reliability is not at issue, since any implementation should producetK >repeatable results.  If by 'reliability' you mean that you consider that aaK >system with simple but strongly counter-intuitive rules is preferable to arG >system with simple, intuitive rules but (perhaps, if unavoidable) rares7 >counter-intuitive exceptions, then we simply disagree.r  C No, I agree with you there. I just disagree which system fits which  description.   --  @ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)e   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jan 2002 23:43:56 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a1t63s$10sh$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  G In article <a1p9th$pdl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:o3 >In article <a1ne4j$240q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, - >   peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote: J >>That's a user-interface problem. The user interface should at this pointJ >>provide a list of file names that may match the one he entered and allowK >>him to select one. That would also deal with the situation where one namesC >>was "may sales forecast" and the other was "may sales forecasts".S  ( >>A file system is not a user interface.  = >Exactly.  So why should it "know" the local spoken language.p  G Precisely. It shouldn't try and map uppercase and lowercase together inmA filename comparisons, because that depends on the local language.o   -- r@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:01:47 -0500  From: "JD" <dyson@jdyson.com>-: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <D6p08.339$vb1.61167@news1.iquest.net>  b "Peter da Silva" <peter@taronga.com> wrote in message news:a1t63s$10sh$1@citadel.in.taronga.com...I > In article <a1p9th$pdl$2@bob.news.rcn.net>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote: 5 > >In article <a1ne4j$240q$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>, / > >   peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:eL > >>That's a user-interface problem. The user interface should at this pointL > >>provide a list of file names that may match the one he entered and allowM > >>him to select one. That would also deal with the situation where one nameoE > >>was "may sales forecast" and the other was "may sales forecasts".m > * > >>A file system is not a user interface. > ? > >Exactly.  So why should it "know" the local spoken language.  > I > Precisely. It shouldn't try and map uppercase and lowercase together in C > filename comparisons, because that depends on the local language.t > B Programs, filesystems and filenames are often shared in the globalH economy.   Different semantics, with different UC/LC folding conventionsF for comparison or naming is really, really shortsighted.  In the oldenL days, being shortsighted and provincially US English wasn't so bad.   Today,C making assumptions about equivalence sets is mostly legacy thinking + and/or legacy compatibility with old-stuff.u   John   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jan 2002 23:51:00 GMT( From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva): Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC2 Message-ID: <a1t6h4$1105$1@citadel.in.taronga.com>  M In article <slrna40bsl.5v1.rivie@cougar.no.domain>,  <ivie@cc.usu.edu> wrote:yI >OK, now you folks will have to explain to me why files should have namesc >in the first place.  F There are many reasons. The extra level of indirection provided by theH UNIX hierarchical file system allows for a variety of useful storage andE access control mechanisms. It allows for the mapping between a symbolcL known to a program and the resource it represents to be changed dynamically.I It allows for resources to be moved from one physical location to anotheriH without modifying programs that access them. It allows for significantlyG better control over local policy than namespaces that don't provide theuH additional level of indirection: the problems that System V interprocessH communication had as a result of the flat numerical namespace forced theJ creation of a convention to map a filename to a shared memory segment. TheF Berkeley Sockets interface has grown an indirection in the form of theE /etc/services file... and very few end-users (and almost none who arer6 not programmers) ever enter a service name explicitly.   -- '@ Rev. Peter da Silva, ULC.	                                 WWFD?  F "Be conservative in what you generate, and liberal in what you accept" 	-- Matthew 10:16 (l.trans)o   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 01:35:23 GMTe4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC- Message-ID: <vBq08.21016$Vq.171080@rwcrnsc53>a  5 "Peter da Silva" <peter@taronga.com> wrote in messagey, news:a1t59e$106j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com...I > In article <8OS%7.1686$Qz1.209009@news.xtra.co.nz>, AG <ang@xtra.co.nz>- wrote:K > >I'm sure the (flogging the dead horse) example of [P/p]olish is known toa' > >practically everyone in this thread.C* > >The question was - how routine that is? >gH > This morning I had a Hamburger and Turkey, yes, the whole country, andB > polished it off with a little Danish... boy he fought like heck! > I > >As an aside, even in that particular case, how much confusion would it  cause D > >if someone, inadverntenly, misspelled the word with a wrong case? >uH > How mush cornfusion duz it caws if yew mispel a hole lot uv werds? EyeK > half two reely try heart two may kit had two reader sin tense. Off coursewI > icon duet, buddy park tickly half Tobruk up thew herds deaf errant lee./ > H > That paragraph started out misspelled but with normal word breaks, and ended-J > up with each word correctly spelled but the syllables were broken up and, > reassembled. Which was easier to make out? >jL > The fact that a misspelling is unlikely to cause confusion is not a strong > argument.n  K Good point. And one good reason that so-called natural language translationm% programs often commit unnatural acts..  I Gotta run... my girlfriend is about to pare a pair of pears to give me myf just desserts.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:59:38 -0500h% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>a: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC, Message-ID: <3C4265B8.11598735@videotron.ca>   Peter da Silva wrote:s > Off courseI > icon duet, buddy park tickly half Tobruk up thew herds deaf errant lee.  > N > That paragraph started out misspelled but with normal word breaks, and endedJ > up with each word correctly spelled but the syllables were broken up and, > reassembled. Which was easier to make out?    H Pardon my parity errors, but I couldn't make out what that sentense was, except for the "Of Course"    J As far as spelling errors, there are times where the meaning of a sentence does change.  H "did you manipulate your hard dick in a way that might have damaged it?"  N oops: it should have been "hard disk". Yeah, in the context of a computer geekL newsgroup, one would realise that "disk" was really meant, but the slip will2 have created a distraction from the topic at hand.  I Consider the famous IBM memo about how to change balls in mice. PerfectlyoS worded, but anyone reading it would be distracted by the double meaning of "balls".    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:56:45 -0500w# From: Paul DeMone <pdemone@igs.net>f: Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC' Message-ID: <3C42731D.440AD76E@igs.net>i   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  [...]gN > > The fact that a misspelling is unlikely to cause confusion is not a strong
 > > argument.h > M > Good point. And one good reason that so-called natural language translation ' > programs often commit unnatural acts.  > K > Gotta run... my girlfriend is about to pare a pair of pears to give me myt > just desserts.  G In other words time flies like an arrow? (sorry, its an old and obscurew AI joke)   --D Paul W. DeMone       The 801 experiment SPARCed an ARMs race of EPICE Kanata, Ontario      proportions to put more PRECISION and POWER into G demone@mosaid.com    architectures with MIPSed results but ALPHA's well $ pdemone@igs.net      that ends well.    > -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----A http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!b> -----==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:07:22 +1300  From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <uxu08.71$na5.7552@news.xtra.co.nz>i  5 "Peter da Silva" <peter@taronga.com> wrote in messagei, news:a1t59e$106j$1@citadel.in.taronga.com...I > In article <8OS%7.1686$Qz1.209009@news.xtra.co.nz>, AG <ang@xtra.co.nz>e wrote:K > >I'm sure the (flogging the dead horse) example of [P/p]olish is known toi' > >practically everyone in this thread.o* > >The question was - how routine that is? >oH > This morning I had a Hamburger and Turkey, yes, the whole country, andB > polished it off with a little Danish... boy he fought like heck!  L Note that you used proper names in all 3 cases to make your point. One couldL just as easily use surnames that happen to coincide with the ordinary words.F Like [S/s]mith etc. Also, just as an aside, I recently saw an ad which actuallyH spelt it Turkey - meaning the bird (and no it wasn't the first word in a sentenceJ or anything like that). Want to guess how many people who read it actually" thought that a country is on sale?   ><I > >As an aside, even in that particular case, how much confusion would itd causecD > >if someone, inadverntenly, misspelled the word with a wrong case?   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   >rH > How mush cornfusion duz it caws if yew mispel a hole lot uv werds? EyeK > half two reely try heart two may kit had two reader sin tense. Off courseeI > icon duet, buddy park tickly half Tobruk up thew herds deaf errant lee.r >i  I You are cheating here. The whole thread was/is about the words that don'tlF differ in spelling except for capitalization. If you do other spelling changes,I then the whole discussion is a little bit pointless - both case-sensitiveh andnI case-insensitive systems will not recognize the words as same. Of course,tG you could go for something like "sound-alike" comparisons, but that's a  totallyo different issue.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:43:07 GMT5- From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>t> Subject: Hobby SCSI Cluster - was Re: Waiting for PKA0 to poll* Message-ID: <3C422E18.8030607@qsl.network>  E It has been a bit since I looked at the documentation to configure a tF SCSI cluster.  I do recall a restriction on at least one adapter type G where you could not use both the internal and external bus on an ALPHA.t2 [It may or may not work, but it was not supported]  F There should be exactly 1 SCSI terminator at each end of the SCSI bus.  D Normally one end of this is done by the controller.  If you have an B internal SCSI bus, then the termination must be at the end of the  internal SCSI bus.  E When you use both an internal SCSI bus and an external SCSI bus on a i> controller, the termination on the SCSI card must be disabled.  3 This means that you must have external termination.s  E Now connecting up a second adapter to the other end of the bus means G< that something must supply the termination on the other end.  F If a Y cable is used to supply termination on at an adapter, then you $ can not use the internal bus at all.  E The use of the both the internal SCSI and external SCSI busses of an aG adapter can cause you to exceed the maximum allowed length of the bus.  2 The SCSI bus in the BA356 is longer than it looks.  H And the internal SCSI bus also can be longer electrically than it looks.  H If the BA356 is in the middle of the SCSI bus, and not at the end, then + it's internal termination must be disabled.,  = Some SCSI devices will negotiate slower speeds and live with s) misconfigured termination, some will not.r  E Having two adapters on the bus may be confusing the auto termination eH circuitry.  You may also be exceeding the maximum length of the bus for & the SCSI mode that you want to run in.  G I would recommend reviewing the documentation for the adapters and the iI BA356 that you are using, and calculate the exact length of the SCSI bus.D  : Make sure that you have configured the SCSI bus correctly.  ? Also make sure that auto resets are disabled on the controller.s   -Johnf wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlys     Didier Morandi wrote:y  O > As some of you readers know, I have built an homogeneous cluster with two PWSgK > 600au running 7.3, a BA356, and one common system disk local to system 1.i >  > My show dev d says > 0 > $255$DKA0		(local disk for page/swap on DTL02)/ > $255$DKA100	(system disk for DTL01 and DTL02) $ > $255$DKA200	(mount/clustered disk) > $255$DKA300	idem > $255$DKA400	idem > $255$DKA500	idem > - > SCSI slots 6 and 7 are the PKA controllers.o' > The BA has no disks in slots 0, 1, 6.e > ? > When I boot DTL01 without the BA power supply on, it boots ok N > When I boot DTL02 from (DTL01) DKA100 [SYS1...], it boots ok and the clusterN > comes up fine and stays ok until I turn on the BA power supply (actually by  > plugging the cord).  > P > Then DKA100 suddenly needs "mount verification" two or three times, then stopsO > needing it. I then do a $ MC SYSMAN IO AUTO on both systems, and I can see my	V > disks. I can do a $ mount/cluster on both systems and everything is fine, thank you. > N > The problems occurs when I reboot. The first system asked to reboot keeps onA > saying "waiting for PKA0 to poll", and the second system hangs.t > P > I did not put terminators with a V connector to each PKA controller. Should I?   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jan 2002 05:43:33 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>/ Subject: Re: Inquirer take on Ayr Alpha monster'- Message-ID: <871ygugc56.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   / Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:a  b > In article <mr3r3ukcj0pcb3r63r1fqgu4etvn0c2et0@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:  oF > > I really doubt that you would have 512 processors per VMS instanceE > > for efficiency reasons even if some version of the OS would allows > > it. Butc  e
 > Absolutely.v  UD > > who knows. Anyone know if there is an architectural limit in VMSE > > on processors as opposed to a supported maximum? How about GalaxyaB > > instances. I can recall hearing mention of unsupported clusterE > > configs running with over 100 nodes so 128 Galaxy instances might 3 > > not be impossible if the hardware supported it.v  0E > Look through the cluster code in the source listings for a bit-mask.D > representing the various CPUs in an instance/system.  See if it isB > limited to some natural memory size like 32 or 64.  Newer GalaxyD > code could be built to supports lots of processors in a box, but IA > would think the number of CPUs playing SMP together would be ina
 > older code.e  E The one that came to mind was the Cluster Directory Vector, currentlya) at 256. SO jumpinng that would be needed.b   -- r< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.s@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 22:49:30 GMTaL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")R Subject: Re: movies or books (was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans8 Message-ID: <00A07FC9.F87521EA@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  n In article <0rHkCuReBFuK@tachxxsoftxxconsult>, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.120519.killspam.00c7 (Wayne Sewell) writes:g >In article <20020113080716.28d39336.steveo@eircom.net>, Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> writes:  >> On 12 Jan 2002 23:24:00 GMT5 >> wl@tawanna.nowhere.there (Wolfgang Liebich) wrote:l >> iP >> WL> "Metropolis" by Fritz Lang. The book (written by Thea v. Harbour) is justL >> WL> mindblowingly bad (IMHO). I couldn't bring myself to finish the book.4 >> WL> The movie is waaay better than the book IMHO. >> nE >> 	IIRC correctly the book was derived from the movie - I will agreeg> >> that this usually makes a book that is worse than the film.  M Thea von Harbau wrote the movie (or at least had the writing credit); she wasyJ also married to Fritz Lang (and chose to stay behind when he bailed out ofM Germany rather than work for the Nazis).  The writer of the movie writing the@J book would seem to be the optimal case, but maybe not, especially in casesJ where the movie doesn't really make a lot of objective sense.  (MetropolisO works beautifully on a visual level, but doesn't make a lot of sense if you trynN to analyze it as a work of science fiction.  Why is there a medieval wizard inO the automated city of the future?  Why does the wizard make a 'robot'?  But the * robot is brilliantly designed and played.)  M >Over the years, I have observed this to be the general case.  Whichever cameeK >first, book or movie, is usually better.  Whichever was derived is usually O >worse.  Books derived from movies almost always suck, because they are usuallyh5 >a quick hack to cash in on the movie's popularity.  s  O Not a disproof, but a counterexample.  The movie of Voyage to the Bottom of theiK Sea sucks; the novelization is quite decent.  This may have to do with the vF movie being written by Hollywood hacks and the novelization written byL Theodore Sturgeon, who made a competent, not stupid, sf adventure out of it.  O (Various stupidities and inconsistencies in the STAR TREK movies are cleared up M by the actual science fiction writers hired to do the novelizations, and sometM of the original novels based on the characters are far better than any of theeM episodes, especially those by Diane Duane.  Basically, if the novelization is M written by a good writer who understands the genre, when the film wasn't, it IM can be a better entry in the genre than the film was.  This is often the caset4 in science fiction film, but not so much otherwise.)  M For a confusing case, Graham Greene's novel _The Third Man_ is a decent pieceaM of work but not up to _Brighton Rock_ or _Ministry of Fear_, but the movie ofoL _The Third Man_ is a film classic, still viewed and enjoyed more than fifty N years later.  He was hired to write an original screenplay for the film, but -N according to the introduction to the book - he coudn't do that without settingM his thoughts in order by writing the story as a novel first.  So which one ise the derivative work?  B -- Alan (Enjoys off-topic this way more than off-topic HP-bashing)  O ===============================================================================f0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056dM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210eO ===============================================================================s   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:43:30 -0500:C From: Stephen Eickhoff <""operagost\"@e-mail.com (remove the dash)>i! Subject: Re: Selling VMS licensesD2 Message-ID: <a1srq7$6n8$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  z > In article <a1qg1j$enl$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, Stephen Eickhoff <""operagost\"@e-mail.com (remove the dash)> writes: > B >>I have unused VMS licenses which I would like to sell. Yup, the J >>original, honest to goodness blue border certificates. They aren't tied F >>to any hardware IDs or expiration dates. Would I run into any legal  >>problems doing this? >> >  > In general, yes. > I > See http://www.compaq.com/products/software/info/policies/swl_xfer.htmle >   H Well, I'm selling a DEC3000 on Ebay which originally had these licenses I loaded. From reading the rules, I should be able to transfer the VMS and o) VMS user licenses with the system easily.u   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jan 2002 16:02:37 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) ! Subject: Re: Selling VMS licensesa3 Message-ID: <lE+QeDcF8pCE@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  x In article <a1srq7$6n8$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>, Stephen Eickhoff <""operagost\"@e-mail.com (remove the dash)> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > { >> In article <a1qg1j$enl$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, Stephen Eickhoff <""operagost\"@e-mail.com (remove the dash)> writes:  >> WC >>>I have unused VMS licenses which I would like to sell. Yup, the uK >>>original, honest to goodness blue border certificates. They aren't tied aG >>>to any hardware IDs or expiration dates. Would I run into any legal n >>>problems doing this?R >>>s >> a >> In general, yes.n >> nJ >> See http://www.compaq.com/products/software/info/policies/swl_xfer.html >> e > J > Well, I'm selling a DEC3000 on Ebay which originally had these licenses K > loaded. From reading the rules, I should be able to transfer the VMS and r+ > VMS user licenses with the system easily.e  @ Absolutely,  so long as you transfer it along with the hardware.? Your original post did not mention that you were making it parts* of the sale of the corresponding hardware.  @ Of course the buyer has to pay the transfer fee, and you have to> be in a position to execute the transfer documente (legally be) able to represent the previous licensee).s   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:06:32 -0500uC From: Stephen Eickhoff <""operagost\"@e-mail.com (remove the dash)>?! Subject: Re: Selling VMS licenseso2 Message-ID: <a1tlg0$nai$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>   Larry Kilgallen wrote:  z > In article <a1srq7$6n8$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net>, Stephen Eickhoff <""operagost\"@e-mail.com (remove the dash)> writes: >  >>Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> >>{ >>>In article <a1qg1j$enl$1@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, Stephen Eickhoff <""operagost\"@e-mail.com (remove the dash)> writes:s >>>k >>>oD >>>>I have unused VMS licenses which I would like to sell. Yup, the L >>>>original, honest to goodness blue border certificates. They aren't tied H >>>>to any hardware IDs or expiration dates. Would I run into any legal  >>>>problems doing this? >>>> >>>> >>>In general, yes.- >>>-J >>>See http://www.compaq.com/products/software/info/policies/swl_xfer.html >>>o >>>aJ >>Well, I'm selling a DEC3000 on Ebay which originally had these licenses K >>loaded. From reading the rules, I should be able to transfer the VMS and n+ >>VMS user licenses with the system easily.h >> > B > Absolutely,  so long as you transfer it along with the hardware.A > Your original post did not mention that you were making it parte, > of the sale of the corresponding hardware. > B > Of course the buyer has to pay the transfer fee, and you have to@ > be in a position to execute the transfer documente (legally be+ > able to represent the previous licensee).a    H Gee, Compaq sure does have a lot of influence over the use of a license = which the user bought. You'd think it was rented! Great scam.t   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jan 2002 05:24:59 GMT( From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The d ; Message-ID: <3c426bab$0$79560$7f8943f3@newsreader.visi.com>i  > In article <bruce-1807DA.14011811012002@news.paradise.net.nz>,% Bruce Hoult  <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:-I >Why is it that two (or three?) mouse buttons is the *right* number, but mG >a somewhat larger number of possible modifier key combinations is too t >many?  Where is the optimum?   L It's very hard to tell.  I was once told that researchers had concluded thatL two was the best.  I will admit, two seems to solve most problems; e.g., youM can have "menu or normal click", or you can have "draw or erase", things liken that.   D >For raw beginners, one button is almost certainly the right number.  I I'm not sure that "it's always that button, but you may have to hold downoM other keys, or master timing" is any better than the alternatives.  I've seen 4 a lot of newbies stumped repeatedly by doubleclicks.  D >Experts can learn any number of obscure combinations they like, as D >appropriate to their level or expertise.  Surely 2 or 3 -- or even 5 >combinations of them -- is not enough for an expert?s  K It seems to be - past that, I am starting to lose track of which buttons dop what.n   -s -- mK    Copyright 2001, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.net K    $ chmod a+x /bin/laden      Please do not feed or harbor the terrorists.1J      C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter.  Boycott Spamazon!N Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:55:10 +1300a# From: Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org>.Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dm> Message-ID: <bruce-62DCF5.18551014012002@news.paradise.net.nz>  < In article <3c426bab$0$79560$7f8943f3@newsreader.visi.com>, ) seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote:r  F > >For raw beginners, one button is almost certainly the right number. > K > I'm not sure that "it's always that button, but you may have to hold downoK > other keys, or master timing" is any better than the alternatives.  I've r; > seen a lot of newbies stumped repeatedly by doubleclicks.[  H Double clicks are not for newbies.  They are *never* the only way to do H something.  In the "select something with the mouse and then use a menu F item to perform an action on it" paradigm, you assign the most common H action to doubeclick but that's not the only way to perform it and it's  not the one you teach first.    F > >Experts can learn any number of obscure combinations they like, as F > >appropriate to their level or expertise.  Surely 2 or 3 -- or even 7 > >combinations of them -- is not enough for an expert?  > K > It seems to be - past that, I am starting to lose track of which buttons n
 > do what.  I Then you're not using those functions enough for it to be worth learning iI the shortcut of using the extra mouse button/modifier combination.  Just l= go ahead and use the menu selection that does the same thing.e  H People who use a program *intensively* can learn a huge number of mouse F buttons, or modifier keys, or keyboard commands.  Just look at things 2 such as Doom or a typical combat flight simulator.  F An advantage of using things on the keyboard as modifiers for a mouse > click is that they can be mnemonic.  That's obviously true of B alphabetical keys, but is also true of things such as "shift" and 	 "option".a   -- Bruce   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jan 2002 06:27:34 GMT( From: seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach)Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dr; Message-ID: <3c427a56$0$79555$7f8943f3@newsreader.visi.com>l  > In article <bruce-62DCF5.18551014012002@news.paradise.net.nz>,% Bruce Hoult  <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:t= >In article <3c426bab$0$79560$7f8943f3@newsreader.visi.com>, h* >seebs@plethora.net (Peter Seebach) wrote:L >> I'm not sure that "it's always that button, but you may have to hold downL >> other keys, or master timing" is any better than the alternatives.  I've < >> seen a lot of newbies stumped repeatedly by doubleclicks.  I >Double clicks are not for newbies.  They are *never* the only way to do nI >something.  In the "select something with the mouse and then use a menu iG >item to perform an action on it" paradigm, you assign the most common tI >action to doubeclick but that's not the only way to perform it and it's b >not the one you teach first.t  H This has not been my experience of how newbies are actually tought - andG indeed, the question of what menu you're looking for, or whether or notAJ any menu item applies, can be a tough one.  Double-click seems to be a lotC easier than "most of the time, you look on the file menu for open".S  J >Then you're not using those functions enough for it to be worth learning J >the shortcut of using the extra mouse button/modifier combination.  Just > >go ahead and use the menu selection that does the same thing.  J Oddly, I have a much easier time with 2-3 buttons, and 2-3 modifiers, than I do with 5-6 buttons.  G >An advantage of using things on the keyboard as modifiers for a mouse m? >click is that they can be mnemonic.  That's obviously true of  C >alphabetical keys, but is also true of things such as "shift" and  
 >"option".  I Agreed.  I currently have a reasonably consistent binding for unmodified,rJ shifted, controlled, or alted uses of all three mouse buttons in my windowK manager.  Curiously, "right click anywhere on frame or title closes window",; has been one of the greatest usability boons I've ever had.u   -s -- aK    Copyright 2001, all wrongs reversed.  Peter Seebach / seebs@plethora.netaK    $ chmod a+x /bin/laden      Please do not feed or harbor the terrorists.eJ      C/Unix wizard, Pro-commerce radical, Spam fighter.  Boycott Spamazon!N Consulting, computers, web hosting, and shell access: http://www.plethora.net/   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:52:37 +0100n( From: Bernd Paysan <bernd.paysan@gmx.de>Y Subject: Re: Sv: Sv: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The du& Message-ID: <3C421DC5.B07A377A@gmx.de>   Bruce Hoult schrieb:E > For raw beginners, one button is almost certainly the right number.y  B Reminds me when I told my father how to start kmail: "Click on theG E-Mail icon" - "With which mouse button?" ;-). I told him that the left G mouse button is used most of the time, and that I will tell him when to  use the others.    -- b Bernd Paysan7 "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"  http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:36:43 +0100V1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>- Subject: Re: SYSMAN> STARTUP4 Message-ID: <3C41E1CB.C1CBA6B@swissonline.delete.ch>   "C.W.Holeman II" wrote:u > I > How long has one been able to define layered product startup proceduresp > like this: > 8 > SYSMAN> STARTUP ENABLE FILE FOR$LPMAIN_043_STARTUP.COM > 	 > in VMS?c  H Many years.  I think it came in about 12 months after SYSMAN started andH I would put that date as early 90's.  (Can anyone correct me on this ??)  D Yes, you can do that but it can be hell for somone trying to debug aE problem in startup somewhere.  Using the old (and reliable) SYSTARTUP ; means that the whole sequence is realtively easy to follow.o     John McLeanr   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:42:25 -0500 ' From: Jim Becker <jbecker@ui.urban.org>n Subject: Re: SYSMAN> STARTUP, Message-ID: <3C4261B1.F5C92759@ui.urban.org>   John McLean wrote: >  > "C.W.Holeman II" wrote:e > >tK > > How long has one been able to define layered product startup proceduresU > > like this: > >e: > > SYSMAN> STARTUP ENABLE FILE FOR$LPMAIN_043_STARTUP.COM > >r > > in VMS?a > J > Many years.  I think it came in about 12 months after SYSMAN started andJ > I would put that date as early 90's.  (Can anyone correct me on this ??) > F > Yes, you can do that but it can be hell for somone trying to debug aG > problem in startup somewhere.  Using the old (and reliable) SYSTARTUP = > means that the whole sequence is realtively easy to follow.   C Um, well, this capability has indeed been around and documented for D many years, so I don't see why you would imply SYSMAN STARTUP ENABLED is hard to follow or not quite reliable. I don't believe it has everE failed me, and I know that any VMS system I see is going to have that: capability.r  E It's a handy capability; it makes the startup process modular instead)F of monolithic. For example, because I sometimes want to do more than aF MIN reboot but I don't want to enable logins or open the floodgates onD the queues, I have a PRODUCTION_MODE.COM that runs in the END phase.F For a normal full reboot, PRODUCTION_MODE.COM is enabled. When I'm notF ready for production mode, I simply disable that procedure before I doB my reboot(s). When I'm ready to return to normal, I re-enable that
 command file.)  F Granted, I could achieve the same effect by commenting out sections of SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM, but:>D - I prefer not to edit SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM just for transient effects.C - I prefer to use SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM for "infrastructure" setup, and	9 defer layered products and the like until after the basic  infrastructure has been set up.s  F This keeps my SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM stable and relatively simple. It is ofC course valid to do it all in one file if that's your preference, asa long as you keep it working.   $0.02i   --
 Jim Becker+ The Urban Institute (http://www.urban.org/)r' Encompass (http://www.encompassus.org/)e. ESILUG (http://encompasserve.org/lugs/esilug/)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:34:13 -0800 - From: "Douglas B Rupp" <rupp@nospam_gnat.com>e+ Subject: Re: vms emacs: last call? the end?n- Message-ID: <3c41e452.0@topcat.tabbygnat.com>W  A Using bash may help in the build process, but it won't reduce theWC number of conditionals in the code.  Also I don't believe Emacs cansF be built with Gcc on VMS due to header file incompatibility. I wrote aD DEC C wrapper program that translates Unix cc syntax into VMS syntaxD that we use to compile a few bits and pieces of Gcc that need unique< intrinsic functions or mixed pointer sizes.  Using this withG bash and autoconf may greatly symplify the configure and build process.e    B > Yes, but 19.28 has been there for at least 6 years.  rather thanI > reinventing the wheel each time a program gets ported, wouldn't it maketH > sense to port enough of a unix environment to facilitate such porting.J > IBM has done this with great success and your bash effort was a big stepG > in this direction. This should also reduce the number of conditionalse > needed in the source code.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:20:17 -0800 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> + Subject: Re: vms emacs: last call? the end?n+ Message-ID: <3C41FA11.4C89DC28@caltech.edu>e   "Craig A. Berry" wrote:r  ; >I've found with other GNU software that VMS mods made somenD > years ago and targeted for VAX C are often actually a hindrance toD > getting something working with the vastly improved C library and C > compiler that we have now.  O That was my experience as well.  Many packages now claim to be "ANSI C" and thee fastesttP way to port them was to do a clean build on Unix, copy the commands the makefile ran into a make_vms.comeP file, translate that to DCL/VMS, and build.  When you hit pipes and other tricky stuff you mighteM want to keep the old VMS bits (mailboxes for pipes) but many of the older VMSe ifdef's were bestiJ eliminated.  You did have to watch out for file name manipulation though - otherwise foo.bar.blatG might show up and that didn't play well on ODS2 (but was fine on ODS5).=   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:39:36 +0100o, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>! Subject: Waiting for PKA0 to poll4& Message-ID: <3C421AB8.6DA5BD3E@gmx.ch>  M As some of you readers know, I have built an homogeneous cluster with two PWS-I 600au running 7.3, a BA356, and one common system disk local to system 1.p   My show dev d says  . $255$DKA0		(local disk for page/swap on DTL02)- $255$DKA100	(system disk for DTL01 and DTL02)$" $255$DKA200	(mount/clustered disk) $255$DKA300	idem $255$DKA400	idem $255$DKA500	idem  + SCSI slots 6 and 7 are the PKA controllers.t% The BA has no disks in slots 0, 1, 6.:  = When I boot DTL01 without the BA power supply on, it boots okpL When I boot DTL02 from (DTL01) DKA100 [SYS1...], it boots ok and the clusterL comes up fine and stays ok until I turn on the BA power supply (actually by  plugging the cord).?  N Then DKA100 suddenly needs "mount verification" two or three times, then stopsM needing it. I then do a $ MC SYSMAN IO AUTO on both systems, and I can see mygT disks. I can do a $ mount/cluster on both systems and everything is fine, thank you.  L The problems occurs when I reboot. The first system asked to reboot keeps on? saying "waiting for PKA0 to poll", and the second system hangs.e  N I did not put terminators with a V connector to each PKA controller. Should I?   Thanks,C   D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 22:08:27 -0800,+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>r. Subject: why case independence came into beingU Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201132149550.8412-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>g  H In the beginning, there were small computers, and they did not have muchF memory.  Yet the hackers said, "let there be a filesystem" and behold!H there was a filesystem.  But there was not much space, and the computersJ used word sizes that were multiples of 6 (12, 18, and 36), so the names ofI the files where stored, even unto the program names, in a six-bit form ofuG ASCII which started with 000 as space and ended with 077 as underscore.   H And the filesystem was exceedingly good and admired throughout the land,H even though it had no lower case, since at that time most terminals wereI uppercase only devices, yea, even the VT05s which were displays and could  run the good version of TECO.a  B Then one day, full ASCII terminals did appear, and there was greatI rejoicing; for the users could enter and display text in a form which dideI appear good to them.  But soon a darkness fell upon the land, for none ofaJ the programs did recognize the lower case, nay, not even unto the commandsJ and the file names.  And the users did gather, and formed a lynch mob, andH threatened the hackers with a purchase of IBM equipment if this were not fixed.  B And the hackers were troubled, since fixing the filesystem was notE practical, and the righteous anger of the users was not swayed by theEH response of "use the CAPS LOCK key."  So the hackers did come up with anG idea, which was to treat lowercase alphabetics as uppercase alphabetics.J for the purpose of commands and filenames, since the other characters from4 0140 to 0176 were specials and could be disregarded.  J And the idea worked, and there was once again great rejoicing in the land.  I And then the developers of Tenex did come up with a filesystem which useduE ASCII instead of SIXBIT, but they had few applications, and had to beeI compatible with the older operating system.  So although their filesystemiH was case-dependent, they decreed that the system calls should all coerceG lowercase letters to upper case, so that compatibility may be achieved,u  and no new lynch mob shall form.  C And so it was done, and TOPS-20 inherited this behavior from Tenex. D TOPS-20 has a case-dependent filesystem, but you have to work to getG lowercase letters or special characters (such as "*") into filenames byc( quoting each such character with CTRL/V.  ; But it worked, and there was rejoicing throughout the land.   I Then the developers of UNIX built their filesystem, and it was ASCII, andhI they had full ASCII terminals, and they had no need to be compatible withv@ 1960s operating systems.  And it worked, and there was rejoicing throughout the land.  H Then the developers of VMS built their filesystem, and it was ASCII, andD they had full ASCII terminals.  But they had aggressive contempt forI anything done by anyone else, and they adopted the 1960s operating system6E behavior of case-independence for their own and claimed that it was a1 feature.  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrcoF Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 23:54:10 -0000m From: jim@4dv.net (Jim Reiss)r$ Subject: Re: Windows version of DCL?/ Message-ID: <u447h2r4cf8v07@corp.supernews.com>c  ' In article <a1l0ji$h2c$2@joe.rice.edu>,,* Jerry Leslie <leslie@clio.rice.edu> wrote:+ >Barry Treahy, Jr. (Treahy@mmaz.com) wrote: G >: Boy, if this isn't an example of a business (ACCELR8) reengineering tL >: itself out of the VMS market...  What they are now doing is interesting, D >AFAIK, Accelr8 and Sector7 have always focused on the migration of % >VMS applications to other platforms. G I believe the reference was to the Accelr8 website having been reworkedrF to put the VMS software in a very small corner.  It is accurate to sayG that the software business is no longer the primary focus, though it isnI still being supported.  Not too surprising considering the business never E took off the way it was expected to.  Apparently many did not see theCD value in getting software running on a new platform sooner, and thenE writing new code specifically for the new system and/or reworking ther4 old code to eliminate the VMSness as time permitted.  C It's sad...I had a big hand in creating what I believe was the best A alternative VMS-like environment, but few of those who could have-K benefited from it actually have done so.  Today it's still a great solutiont to a difficult problem.S  H (I am no longer an Accelr8 employee and my comments do not reflect their	 opinions)b   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 16:11:05 +010073 From: Terje Mathisen <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com>nY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise of compaq t- Message-ID: <3C41A389.4E5AD88E@hda.hydro.com>t   Paul Sture wrote:a3 > REASONS WHY THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE IS HARD TO LEARN  [list snipped]  G Having words with multiple meanings, and/or multiple different spelling B and the same pronounciation is afaik common in many/most languages (excepting Esperanto?) .  F I.e. in norwegian the words for farmers, beans and prayers are more or less identical.a  D To bring this back to at least comp.arch relevancy: This is the mainF reason that natural language interfaces, particularly spoken, is going% to take a lot of computing resources.y   Terjef -- u  - <Terje.Mathisen@hda.hydro.com>@ "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 21:59:42 GMTe' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>sY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise of compaq i) Message-ID: <3C42009E.B90C63B6@yahoo.com>s   Stan Barr wrote: > 0 > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:09 +0100, Paul Sture' > <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> wrote:iL > >Let's face it - English is a crazy language. There is no egg in eggplant, > >nor ham in hamburger; >             ^^^^^^^d% > That's from the German - "Hamburg"!o: > From "Hamburg steak" - a steak made from chopped beef...  ) Hey - don't confuse the issue with facts.o   -- l@ Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. =    (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified)a0    mailto:uce@ftc.gov  (for spambots to harvest)   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jan 2002 18:24:25 -0800* From: Dowe Keller <dowe@krikkit.127.0.0.1>O Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The dem-. Message-ID: <m3wuylacva.fsf@krikkit.127.0.0.1>  + Charles Richmond <richmond@ev1.net> writes:l   > Christian Bau wrote: > > . > >      [snip...]     [snip...]     [snip...] > > I > > The last bit was someone posting how unintuitive the use of the shift J > > button together with a mouse click is, and that this was a huge designJ > > mistake that Apple made. I think this is nonsense and I posted that. IL > > may be right, wrong, opinionated or whatever. Fact is that the MacintoshL > > uses shift-clicks extensively and Macintosh users don't complain that itL > > is non-intuitive, and Windows uses shift-clicks just as much and WindowsF > > users don't complain either, and Linux users can feel free to postL > > whether Linux uses shift-clicks, but I bet it does, and I bet they don't
 > > complain.  > >tE > There is some way to use a two-button mouse with Linux, and IIRC itrF > involves using the keyboard with the mouse in some way... I can giveA > *no* details, because I have a three-button mouse with my Linuxe > box...  E Clicking both right & left buttons simulates a middle button click inlC X.  BTW, I am going mouseless in Linux, and can say that a mouse isiE not required equipment in either the console, or X.  On the contrary, % I find the mouse was slowing me down.i   --  6 dowe@sierratel.com	Home: http://www.sierratel.com/dowe1 		    Projects: http://freshmeat.net/projects/vshr/ 			      http://freshmeat.net/projects/menuitis    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 05:49:55 GMTa* From: genew@mail.ocis.net (Gene Wirchenko)O Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Re:     The demi- Message-ID: <3c4265ab.20504375@news.ocis.net>   9 Christian Bau <christian.bau@cbau.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:    >Paul Guertin wrote: >> t' >> Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:r >> tH >> > All the Mac browsers I've used do "open in new window" if you clickE >> > while holding the "command" key.  Much faster than using a menu.a >>  A >> As someone once said about shift-, option-, ctrl- and command-dC >> clicking, "The Mac does have a multibutton mouse, it's just that 6 >> Apple put all the buttons but one on the keyboard." >> .E >> Shift-clicking has got to be one of the least intuitive operations3D >> there is. Why not have a click-while-turning-down-the-brightness- >> knob, while you're at it? >pG >Intuitiveness for beginners: The mouse is there to initiate an action.x  E      Windows has something with <Shift>-and-drag and <Ctrl>-and-drag:e7 I can't remember them, so they aren't intuitive either.a        From my sig collection:7           The only intuitive user interface is a nipplet  A      My take is that "intuitive" often means: "Well, *I* know it.a= What's wrong wrong with you?  Are you an idiot or something?"s  F >There are several possible actions, mostly clicking and dragging. TheH >modifier keys on the keyboard are there to modify the action. BasicallyI >the same action, but slightly different. The shift key Is Always Used TojF >Change The Behaviour Of Other User Interface Elements, as you can seeI >what happened when I pressed the shift key while typing the first letteriH >of each word. So it is obvious that pressing the shift key might modify >other actions as well.   %      It is *obvious* that it *might*?a  <      Not very obvious or intuitive if someone can't be sure.  D      It is obvious to me that using <Shift> can change the behaviourE of other keys.  This is because I am familiar with the paradigm, bothg+ using a computer keyboard and a typewriter.o  E      Using <Shift> (on one input device) to modify the behaviour of a @ button (on another input device) is not obvious to me.  Prior toB hearing how it is used in Windows, I don't think that I would haveB ever tried it as I otherwise have no a priori reason to suppose it would do anything.  G >Did you get this: The shift key on the keyboard is a modifier key that E >modifies the behaviour of other user interface elements. That is its 
 >purpose.   .      That *might* modify, etc..  Or might not.  C      Please.  Don't bother explaining it.  If you have to, it isn'te
 intuitive.  G >There is no "click-while-turning-down-the-brightness-knob" because theCF >brightness knob on your monitor is intended for a single purpose, and6 >overloading its functionality would be non-intuitive.  F      <Shift> is great for the keyboard.  Overloading its functionality is non-intuitive.a  3      How is my statement much different from yours?a  E >> If your interface uses a meta key to put the mouse in some specialyB >> mode, then put that key on the mouse itself, not on a unrelated >> peripheral. >bF >The keyboard is not an "unrelated peripheral", it is one of the threeC >essential components (from the users point of view) that make up a D >modern computer: Monitor, keyboard, and mouse. All three componentsI >interact together. In some implementations, pointing device and keyboardlH >are even closer together, for example if you use a trackpad directly at >the keyboard, or a trackball. o > @ >> Apple got many things right with the MacOS interface, but the( >> shift- click thing isn't one of them. >hD >Ok, you have so much more experience designing user interfaces than >anyone at Apple does.  E      Does a user have to be an expert in order to know that somethingo doesn't work for him?U  D      I don't care for programs that require me to mouse when I couldE just as easily be using the keyboard.  Such a program doesn't work so"D well for me.  Whether I can design a user interface is irrelevant to4 the point that a given UI works (or doesn't) for me.  
 Sincerely,   Gene Wirchenko  ' Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:o      I have preferences.      You have biases.a      He/She has prejudices..   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.025 ************************p://www.encompassus.org/)e. ESILUG (http://encompasserve.org/lugs/esilug/)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:34:13 -0800 - From: "Douglas B Rupp" <rupp@nospam_gnat.com>e+ Subject: Re: vms emacs: last call? the end?n- Message-ID: <3c41e452.0@topcat.tabbygnat.com>W  A Using bash may help in the build process, but it won't reduce theWC number of conditionals in the code.  Also I don't believe Emacs cansF be built with Gcc on VMS due to header file inB    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    ÜB    ĜB    ŜB    ƜB    ǜB    ȜB    ɜB    ʜB    ˜B    ̜B    ͜B    ΜB    ϜB    МB    ќB    ҜB    ӜB    ԜB    ՜B    ֜B    לB    ؜B    ٜB    ڜB    ۜB    ܜB    ݜB    ޜB    ߜB    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B     B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    B    	B    
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