0 INFO-VAX	Sun, 20 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 38      Contents: Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement9 Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows! 7 Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible? 7 Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible? 7 Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible? 7 Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible? 7 Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible? 7 RE: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible? 7 Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible? / Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse!  Re: Dec2000 and Decserver 90	 Direct CD 
 Re: Direct CD  Re: emacs21 help needed  Newbie Help on Security ( Re: Purveyor is superior for VMS - proof" RE: Rise and Fall of the MagaloidsM Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq )  TYPE suggestion  Re: TYPE suggestion ( TYPE/TAIL question (fixed record length)! US-FL programmer available/wanted 
 us-florida Re: Veritas Client for VMS7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) ? Re: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D ? RE: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D ? Re: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D ? Re: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise    of compM Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq )  Yust some news... P Re: [Change topic]  Cheap DEC 3000-600s for sale in the UK - ideal hobbyist machP [Change topic]  Cheap DEC 3000-600s for sale in the UK - ideal hobbyist machines5 Re: [OT / Humor] Things not to do on a *nix system... 5 Re: [OT / Humor] Things not to do on a *nix system... 9 Re: [Q] Why is there the limit of 8 levels of directories 9 Re: [Q] Why is there the limit of 8 levels of directories   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:36:46 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> ! Subject: Re: A position statement 5 Message-ID: <3C4AABCE.8A7E22BB@swissonline.delete.ch>   F Here's my response.  I apologise for its length but I hope you find it interesting.   John     Bill Todd wrote: > =   J > > 1.  Compaq's transfer of Alpha made short-term financial sense.  In t= heH > > circumstances that they had created for themselves, removing a largeH > > part of an expense of roughly $400 million per annum is a fair call. > =   J > Where did you come up with $400 million per annum?  Winkler's figure wa= s the J > highest I've heard, at $300 million annually (which would include compl= etion J > of EV7, so the actual short-term savings will be less) - and the EETime= s F > Marcello interview pegged Alpha development expenses at $150 million > annually.   H The $400 million - and please note I said "large part of =85roughly $400G million" - comes from the statements about the cost of developing Alpha G made when Compaq bought Digital and again in the Annual Report for that C year.  Corresponding figures were given by Compaq shortly after the  announcement on June 25.   > =   J > This means that the actual short-term savings realized will be at most = in  > the $100 - $200 million range.  G So, you know the level of saving better than Compa's own accountants ??     - >  If one accepts Compaq's statement that 80% J > of its customers plan to hang around despite the Alphacide, the annual = loss+ > of profit in VMS alone from the other 20%   D You often quote the profits of VMS to be about $800 million but thatB refers to 1999 figures and I believe that at that time any storageF associated with VMS was grouped with VMS for accounting purposes.  TheH true figure is somewhere lower but I have no information as to its exact value.    J > But the only circumstances when it's at all rational to limit one's vis= ion J > to the short term are when short-term survival is at stake (i.e., when = you ? > won't be around later if you don't make drastic changes now).   C Sorry, no.  We are dealing with a situation where the short-term is G reasonably well understood - potential savings being the major entity - H but the longer term is entirely conjecture.  Among these conjectures areF things like probable demand for VMS and Tru64, the ability of Intel toA create processors that are at least comparable and deliverable on H schedule.  Compaq - or anyone - can do no more than make a best estimate! of how these things may play out.   G (It does appear some of Compaq's assumptions may have been already cast C into doubt.  Events of Sep 11 could not be forseen but they are now H reflected in demand for systems with high security and high availabilityC emphasise, as stated in the Q4 financials.  Had this demand for VMS = appeared early this year, the decision on Alpha may have been  otherwise.)     J >  And from all appearances the Alphacide decreased rather than increased=  ) > Compaq's chances of being around later.   D Your statement "all appearances" is unsupportable by evidence.  SureF there are people adopting a wait-and-see approach but this is no clearD indicator that they will move away from VMS (or Tru64).  From what IA have observed and heard, the reaction of most companies - and not D individuals - is that the change will be similar to the Vax to AlphaD transition and they have confidence that Compaq's VMS folk will makeF life as easy as possible.  (One should also be suspicious of companiesH that have stated they will look elsewhere.  They might well be trying toH get some concessions out of Compaq.  That is an entirely dfferent matter. to having no confidence in the future of VMS.)    J > The only obvious benefit was to make Compaq a more attractive take-over=  < > target to another company equally uninterested in fieldingJ > 'non-industry-standard' solutions.  Aside from that, it appears to have=  been - > at best fiscally neutral in the short term,   G Here's your assumption about the costs and the potential savings again.   % > =85. a significant loss medium-term J > (the period when VMS and Tru64 will be available only on the declared-d= yingJ > Alpha platform), and a disaster long-term unless the Alpha team pulls a=  " > miracle out of its hat for Intel  D You seem to have ignored the trade-in/trade-over kinds of deals thatG Compaq is now offering its new Alpha customers.  This will probably put G them in a slightly advantageous position compared to those who have had D Alphas for several years and would in the normal course of events be paying for new hardware anyway.   F You have also ignored any overlap period when VMS is available on bothF Alpha and Intel.  Many customers would an Alpha now and be looking forH new hardware before the end of this overlap period.  (In my opinion thisH would be a smart move - never be first with any upgrade or major change, but never be last either.)    J > > 2.  Compaq's handling of the announcement of the transfer was poor an= d H > > their justifications were weak.  Various announcements about methodsJ > > which will reduce the customers' costs of change of platform have don= e J > > something to redress the balance.  Personally I would chalk it up as = yet 7 > > another failure in their "external communications".  > =   F > Failure to justify an unjustifiable decision is not a communicationsJ > failure.  Perhaps you're just saying that their lies could have been le= ss > transparent.  E Perhaps if you had more accurate information about the annual savings F you might be able to make this kind of comment.  Perhaps also it wouldB help if you knew where Compaq were directing these savings and theD income that was generated by this money in the next few years ratherE than be sunk into development of something which just might produce a ' profitable return in 3 or 4 years time.   H We are talking here of a thing called "business risk".  Perhaps when youB are the CEO of a good sized company - not necessarily one with $24? billion in assets and about 64,000 employees - you will be more $ qualified to speak on these matters.    J > > 3.  Compaq appears to be run as four separate competing companies - V= MS, H > > NSK, Tru64 and NT - and this kind of attitude is a major obstacle toB > > income growth.  These subcompanies never mention each other inJ > > advertising and, even worse, the sales philosophy seems to be to divi= deJ > > the range of possible markets into four sectors - VMS being sandwiche= d J > > between NSK and Unix - and that the given platform will ONLY advertis= e C > > to that sector.  To put it very politely, I just cannot see any / > > reasonable justification for this approach.  > =   H > Any statement that suggests (as yours does above) that VMS competes onJ > anything like equal footing in the corporation is flat-out blind to rea= lity.   E I am saying no such thing.  You have it wrong just like JF.  As I say F later in my post, the PC faction appears to have greatest influence. =  F The playing ground is far from level; the niche market concept ensures this.   E FWIW, I believe that this is the greatest single failing of Compaq, a H marketing strategy that does not allow them to reap maximum profits fromD the entire range of IT activities.  I am trying to discover why thisF notion exists and who are the people with sufficient influence to haveH the idea adopted.  I have tried to bypass them with a argument direct toC Michael Capellas.  I don't know if it will work but it is certainly  worth a try.    G > The most charitable interpretation I can come up with (of your entire F > approach, not just this point) is that you've completely given up onJ > challenging Compaq's handling of its assets and are willing to grovel f= or$ > whatever crumbs that might produce  H I don't grovel for crumbs.  If I am going to bash my head against a wallA I like to know that it is the right wall to be bashing.  Compaq's ! OpenVMS people are not that wall.     J > > 4.  The OpenVMS division within Compaq seems to be enthusiastic about=  J > > the platform and certainly want to improve sales.  The obstacles trul= y J > > seem to be elsewhere.  Given that only the VMS people in Compaq appea= r J > > to read this newsgroup, any criticism here - constructive or otherwis= e -  > > is misdirected.  > =   J > If your premise were correct, your conclusion would be as well.  But si= nce J > both customers and the competition also read what transpires here (you = even' > say so in your next point), it's not.   C Please give us the conclusive proof that the OpenVMS people are the @ major obstacle and that the obstacle does not exist elsewhere inF Compaq.  From what I have seen the OpenVMS people are enthusiastic and> helpful but clearly they are sometimes constrained by what the" greater-Compaq permits them to do.    D >  > ..I know that Compaq's VMS people are the "face of the company"J > > from our perspective but when all of us are in violent agreement with=  F > > our aims - but maybe not method! - it really makes little sense to > > harangue them.)  > =   J > I haven't noticed anyone haranguing them except when they attempt to su= pport J > Compaq's lies (in which case confrontation is entirely appropriate, eve= n ifJ > one can also sympathize with the position they're in:  if they *really*=  have J > credible evidence that we lack on these matters, let them produce it - = or2 > convince higher-ups that doing so is important).  E I am sure that they have tried to convince those higher-ups but often B without success.  As for the nature of Compaq's "lies" you seem to forget a few things.  C The first thing is that they have more information than you on many D matters and while you may be peerlessly correct on some issues thereG other major factors that you are not aware of.  Do you for example know E exactly how many VMS machines are now on maintenance contracts ?  How G many compiler licenses are out there ?  How many systems are being sold 4 because of Oracle, of Rdb, of software package XYZ ?  E Now I admit, I cannot be sure if the Compaq employees who support the F company statements are doing so because they understand and agree withF the basis for certain decisions, they have first hand knowledge of theH factors, they understand the consequences of some decision and know thatG it is insignificant, or they just want to keep their jobs.  You are far D too willing to criticise them when if you were in their position you# might do exactly as they have done.       J > > 5.  In regard to the previous point, it seems that Compaq's competito= rsJ > > have been using information from this newsgroup that criticizes Compa= q's H > > actions as regards VMS.  This can only have a negative affect on VMSJ > > sales and so it plays directly into the hands of the people in Compaq=  + > > who believe that VMS should be ignored.  > =   J > So what?  It's abundantly clear that these people already have the uppe= r & > hand, so matters won't be any worse. > =   J > VMS is not so much owned by Compaq (and these people who run it) as it = isF > held hostage by it.  "Watch out!", you seem to be saying:  "If we do= > anything to make them mad, they'll only make things worse!"   = Is this the only exercise you get ?  Jumping to conclusions ?   E I am saying that any undermining of Compaq's VMS sales by postings to F this newsgroup will not result in a positive adjustment of policy fromG Compaq.  They are far more likely to reduce their resources and efforts F for VMS and at least most of us here would regard this as a BAD THING.    J > Well, things already *are* worse, and they got that way by following th= e ( > course of action you're promoting now.  B Another wild assertion.  This course of action did NOT create this@ response.  If anything it was an inherited response from DigitalG combined with the heartland of Compaq being dominated by PCs.  Probably E we can include the upper echelons of marketing stubbornly refusing to G test the water regards increasing the advertising of VMS.  (I also note F that Compaq appears to have been "carried" by the high-end systems forD several years.  This creates fiction when headquarters is physicallyF located with the "passengers" and is also the origins of the company.)    & >  A new course is indicated, one thatJ > will either make them sit up and take notice or result in their expulsi= on by J > the BoD or the stockholders.  Yes, it *feels* risky, but Compaq has don= e J > such a good job of marginalizing VMS already that there's really not th= atJ > much *actual* down-side risk left - and the potential up-side, as we've=  said  > for so long, is huge.   B As I said before, most of us would regard further reduction in VMSH resources as a bad thing.  You might like to take the RISK of a completeE termination of VMS but judging by the lack of posted support for your < attitude you do not speak for the majority of the folk here.  H I took it upon myself to post the original document and this response toG your response because I do not believe that a small number of outspoken 6 critics should act against the wishes of the majority.    ! >   What needs to be done in this J > > group (when we are not dealing with technical questions) is to encour= age A > > the growth of VMS sales and to show its advantages over other J > > platforms.  (In regard to the former, reports of sales into new marke= tsJ > > are always interesting and for the latter, just how difficult is it t= o 2 > > show the security advantages that VMS enjoys?) > =   J > JF answered this more than adequately.  I suggest that you consider his=  J > points carefully (especially the issue of how ethical it is to encourag= e J > others to adopt an at-risk platform without notifying them of said risk= s,C > simply in the hope that their presence will improve its chances).   @ I believe that Compaq will be properly informing their potentialF customers and unlike you, they will be explaining the trade-in/tade-up< scheme which will take Alpha buyers onto the Intel platform.  D I suggest that you consider how ethical it is for you to assume thatA this is not being done and to take it upon yourself to make theserG assertions without validating your assumptions.  Ignorance is no excuseeC is a statement that commonly applies to law; perhaps it should alsoa apply to newsgroup postings.    D > > 6.  In a broader picture we need to do what we can to reduce theJ > > influence of those people in Compaq who appear to have relegated VMS = to? > > the "second division" of platforms (along with NSK).  =85.. < > > We need to work with Compaq's VMS people to convince theD > > decision-makers that there are very good reasons to increase theH > > publicity of VMS.  When that action results in greater VMS sales andH > > hence greater income, we will have clearly demonstrated that it is aF > > platform which deserves rather more attention than it is currently > > receiving.  =l   > =b  J > That's *exactly* what we tried 20 months ago, John.  It didn't work, at=  all.A  G And as you showed recently you seem completely unaware that things havec! changed for IT in that 20 months.r  B - According to April 2001 figures, in 1999 PCs made a loss of $386F million.  In 2000 they improved and made a profit of $145 million, butH last year they made a loss of $587 million.  The enthusiasm for PCs that3 Compaq had in July 2000 can no longer be justified.   F -  According to a number of reports PC users are becoming reluctant toE upgrade their systems just because of a new release of Windows.  Many H are saying that the market has reached saturation and that new sales areH only replacements.  Both factors say that PC growth is likely to be very" low, unlike the period up to 1999.  G - September 11 caused a new awareness of the need for secure systems ofn4 high availability.  This is perfectly suited to VMS.  F - VMS was late catching the e-software bandwaggon and in 2000 that wasE the area of biggest demand.  That demand has substantially diminishedi> and the emphasis of IT has returned to a more general outlook.  > - System consolidation is increasing and this requires greaterB reliability than before.  The loss of one system out of 10 runningH separate applications was a minor issue, but the loss of a single serverH running all 10 applications is a major problem.  Again, VMS is perfectly suited to the task.t    H These are all factors that have changed the emphasis of the IT market inC the last few years.  Many have created new opportunities for VMS orc1 diminished the opportunities for other platforms.r  G These are all good reasons why VMS should be unleashed from its niches.v     John McLeanv   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:05:30 GMTt- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> ! Subject: Re: A position statement D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.30.0201200905180.16155-100000@world.std.com>   Well stated, John!   terry sr   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:15:34 GMTe- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>w! Subject: Re: A position statementeD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.30.0201200911390.16155-100000@world.std.com>  $ On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, JF Mezei wrote:   > Bill Todd wrote:P > > Where did you come up with $400 million per annum?  Winkler's figure was theP > > highest I've heard, at $300 million annually (which would include completionL > > of EV7, so the actual short-term savings will be less) - and the EETimesH > > Marcello interview pegged Alpha development expenses at $150 million
 > > annually.p >hK > Do we know for sure that those figures are for the chip only ? Could theyeL > include the development cost of the fancy Alpha servers (aka: Wildfire and > offspring ?)  J Supposedly the chip, compilers, and such system infrastructure as would be deemed Alpha-specific.  N > Is EV7 going to be available in anything less than wildfire-class machines ?  H Yep. There will be a 2-way box for telcos, etc. Basic building block forF commercial systems will be 8-way, but two through 8P systems should beF available, too... gotta replace the DS and ES series with something...  P > But when IA64 comes out and Compaq attempts to build a wildfire-class machine,P > I suspect that the development costs will be quite hard with lots of headachesK > since IA64 will still be a young chip without much support for such largef > scale systems. >n  I We'll know a bit more when Cyclone ships, which should be late this year.,  0 > Intel has never built CPUs for supercomputers. >o  I I'd double-check that. I seem to recall that the US Govt has a few reallye2 big boxes with whole bunches of IA32 chips in 'em.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:06:22 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>h! Subject: Re: A position statementi, Message-ID: <3C4ADCE7.72C78A69@videotron.ca>   John McLean wrote:H > The $400 million - and please note I said "large part of roughly $400I > million" - comes from the statements about the cost of developing AlphauI > made when Compaq bought Digital and again in the Annual Report for thateE > year.  Corresponding figures were given by Compaq shortly after then > announcement on June 25.  I Consider that Compaq goes through great lengths and efforts to avoid everwM having to show that VMS is generating significant porofits. And consider that N Compaq went to great lengths to portray Alpha as a slow-as-molasses and costly/ chip in order to justify its murder on June 25.   K I am sorry, but I do not beleive anything Compaq says with regards to Alpha 0 and VMS unless it produces well defined numbers.  J Even that "we have 411,000 systems" is ill defined because it does not sayP whether those are on maintenance or just licences issued since V5.0 or whatever.  M Similarly, just as Compaq is perfectly capable of bundling in the VMS profitsTL with the wintel server non-profits, they would be able to bundle in the costI of designing wildfire class machines with the cost of designing the alphao. chip. Compaq's numbers don't have credibility.  G Sure, we can use some numbers that make VMS look good, but for the sameiM reason, those numbers arean't credible (although it is likely that in realitye the numbers might be better).s  I > So, you know the level of saving better than Compa's own accountants ??y  L Accountants are there to justify stretegic decisions. Compaq decided to killM Alpha and to ignore VMS. Accountants just manage the numbers to support thoseo decisions. t  E > Sorry, no.  We are dealing with a situation where the short-term issI > reasonably well understood - potential savings being the major entity -r- > but the longer term is entirely conjecture.c  J Sorry, no. We are dealing with a situation where the IMAGE of Compaq's keyK profit generating platform is very bad and allowed to get worse by Compaq'suH decision to ignore that plaform. If you need a short term platform for aK specific project, then either VMS or tru64 on Alpha will do if they fit ther need better than others.  N But if you want to make a strategic long term decisions, the lack of a visibleK future for those platforms is a serious hindrance to getting new customers.t  H > things like probable demand for VMS and Tru64, the ability of Intel toC > create processors that are at least comparable and deliverable on J > schedule.  Compaq - or anyone - can do no more than make a best estimate# > of how these things may play out.a  L That VMS is being migrated to an inferior CPU platform isn't the problem. ItL is the continued absense of marketing that is.  There will be financial painJ for customers to switch platforms. This means that this will cause furtherN erosion of the remaining installed base and make VMS a less interesting target for software ports.y  J Compaq's logic is flawed when it says that IA64 *is* industry standard. ItK *might* become. It has the same potential as Alpha had of becoming industryhW standard. But the odds are higher since Intel isn't affraid to market its own products.r  K There is a chance that IA64 will remain a niche market used by HP and a fewnM others. No different than Alpha except that Intel invested much more money toa get an inferior chip.t  N And another danger for Intel is the positioning of the 8086 vs IA64.  If IntelL continues to improve the 8086, it will further delay any migration from 8086J to IA64. And if it does not improve the 8086 to make the IA64 look better,  then AMD will be the big winner.  F > Your statement "all appearances" is unsupportable by evidence.  SureH > there are people adopting a wait-and-see approach but this is no clear: > indicator that they will move away from VMS (or Tru64).     L "Wait and see" can be translated to "we don't trust Compaq's commitments, weL won't invest in VMS until we see clear signs of a credible commitment beyondM just the port". The fact that Compaq has already leaked that VMS evolution onsD Alpha may stop as soon as 2006 doesn't help the situation since thatM contradicts the statement that Alpha and IA64 would share a code base to keepe$ versions on both platforms in synch.  N Remember that both Compaq and HP have made statements with regards to focusingK only on industry standard and "open" OS (eg: Windows and Unix) and droppingYM the rest of the prorpietary stuff. Without a clear and credible commitment tofK VMS, those statements naturally cause a lot of discomfort for anyone who ise! considering long term use of VMS.0  C > have observed and heard, the reaction of most companies - and nottF > individuals - is that the change will be similar to the Vax to AlphaF > transition and they have confidence that Compaq's VMS folk will make > life as easy as possible.   M Technically, correct. The VMS engineers have high credibility when they stateeO that they can do the port and that user mode programs will require few changes.t  L The problem is that people do not trust that the VMS marketplace will remainM large enough to warrant continued support for wheteber application they need.lL Combine this with the rapidly shrinking number of niche markets where VMS isL allowed to compete (used to be 6, but lately, i have heard only 2) and it is normal for customers to worry.  L Combine this with the fact that even if user mode programs can be recompiledE with few changes, the port will cost customers and distract them from2G improving their business since they willhave to focus on that migration.L project, and you get a situation where customers will ask "if we're going toF go through a project to retest all our software, shouldn't we take the6 oppportunity to convert to Unix while we are at it ?".  K And if a company would like to have SAP for instance, they may decided thatsH the money invested in the porting to IA64 shoudl be better spent by justN buying a unix platform with SAP. While the port would be more costly/involved,F it would be done and they wouldn't have to worry about doing it later.  N You see, the problem with VMS is that while the short/medium term availabilityL is there, I think that a great deal of people don't see VMS beyond a certainL number of years and know that they will eventually have to convert away fromG VMS. And the forced port to Ia64 will force many customers to take thatsJ consideration because they start to see that day when Compaq will drop VMSH getting closer and closer. (Especially the way Alpha was killed, and howR quickly Compaq announced the death of Tru64 and HP announced the drowning of MPE).  - > (One should also be suspicious of companieseJ > that have stated they will look elsewhere.  They might well be trying to% > get some concessions out of Compaq.i  L But Compaq cannot afford to call their bluff because many of those companiesK might be in fact very serious and not even bother tell Compaq that they areeK migrating to Sun. And if Compaq must now make lots of costly concessions to L retain a certain group of customers, it means that its recent decisions haveH had a very negative impact on VMS and that Compaq had underestimated the8 loyalty of those customers when it made those decisions.  F > You seem to have ignored the trade-in/trade-over kinds of deals that1 > Compaq is now offering its new Alpha customers.u  T No, that is the whole point that shows that people do not have confidence in Compaq.  J > We are talking here of a thing called "business risk".  Perhaps when youD > are the CEO of a good sized company - not necessarily one with $24A > billion in assets and about 64,000 employees - you will be moren& > qualified to speak on these matters.  $ Does the word "vision" ring a bell ?  N The "vision" of that CEO that had a company worth many many billions with overK 140,000 employees and was the world's second largest compute company at oneeN time, well that vision sent the company into oblivion. Sorry, but just becauseM you get to the CEO positio doesn't mean you are qualified.  The world is fulloG of Palmer's , Lay's etc etc. And there aren't enough Gerstners or Jobs.d  J > the idea adopted.  I have tried to bypass them with a argument direct to > Michael Capellas.h  M Out of curiosity, doesn't anyone know if Capellas is in control ? It seems to N me that Ben Rosen and Mike Winkler have a great deal of influence on Capellas. Who else pulls the strings ?    E > Please give us the conclusive proof that the OpenVMS people are the B > major obstacle and that the obstacle does not exist elsewhere inH > Compaq.  From what I have seen the OpenVMS people are enthusiastic and@ > helpful but clearly they are sometimes constrained by what the$ > greater-Compaq permits them to do.  N While I generally agree with the above paragraph, I sometime thing that you doL need a few sacrificial lamps willing to risk their jobs to get the word out.K Imagine if Marcello were to go to the press and talk about the successes ofoM vMS and how much profit it generates and how much growth it could achiecve iflK it were allowed to be marketed ? Imagine if Marcello had go to the press atoG the time when Linux was starting to emerge as a Wall Street darling andeL presented VMS as a FULLY SUPPORTED and QUALITY/ROBUST alternative to Windows and paint Linux as a toy ?  I Yep, Marcello might have gotten his hands slapped or even fired, but thenaL Capellas would have had to handle the press's demand for info on VMS and VMSH could not longer have been relegated to a hidden drawer in the basement.  J The thing is that for as long as the VMS folks worry more about their jobsM than breaking the Compaq barriers, those barriers will stay and VMS employees I will continue to see their platform slowly wither away and they will lose  their jobs eventually.  G It is like a bad zit. If you don't burst it, it continues to get worse.e  K The small rensaissance managed to turn VMS from negative growth to positiveuR growth near double digit. With such a small marketing budget, they achieved a lot.    I You would think that with such positive results from that experiment thathK Compaq would have given the VMS folks greater marketing budgets to generatelI more growth and profits. But NO! VMS was sent back to his hidden basemento cubicle to be forgotten.  I What this tells me is that the goal of the renaissance was simply to slowvF down/stop the negative growth in order to prolong the period where VMSH generate much needed profits to subsidize the PC business. The fact thatH Compaq did not continue the "renaissance" is pretty good indication that( Compaq has no intentions of growing VMS.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:51:12 GMTo  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>B Subject: Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows!+ Message-ID: <3C4A76F2.3A554E47@prodigy.net>s   Bob Koehler wrote: > f > In article <dyW18.213924$pa1.58000065@news3.rdc1.on.home.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:C > > In the US, the term 'Engineer' can be, and is used, in a ratheraP > > fast-'n'-loose way. Generally accepted to be somebody who designs or createsH > > something in traditional engineering disciplines, or in the field ofG > > software development, someone who deals with numerical methods [notaO > > accounting :-) ] in the financial services field, or the guy who drives thefL > > train. Only the person who has P.E. after their name is a true engineer. > >nG > > The term 'Engineer' is a legally protected concept/title in Canada.e > H >    Would cause great difficulty with the sanitational engineer's union >    in the states.w  H It is probably one of the leading ways to keep engineering salaries low.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 01:34:14 -0500p( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>@ Subject: Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible?, Message-ID: <3C4A64E6.8070207@tsoft-inc.com>   Herb Asher wrote:c  F > Thanks for the info. I am in the UK and finding someone with workingF > boxes at a not to high price may be difficult but I will have a huntE > around on the net. Ebay did'nt seem to offer much from the UK, onlytG > one chap selling untested boxes without pictures or good discriptionslF > so I don't think that is the way I need to go. I'm sure all this kit= > ends up somewhere so it's just a case of finding it.... :0/  > G > If anyone knows any good uk outfits that will sell old vaxstations at,' > reasonable prices please let me know.y > 
 > Regards, > Herb > E > On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:25:20 GMT, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@zfree.co.nz>o > wrote: >  > + >>joechip31@hotmail.com (Herb Asher) wrote:  >>
 >>>Hi people,e >>> F >>>Well I am an out of work vms/unix operator in the UK, since I enjoyI >>>messing with systems and things at home, ie linux box, home network on I >>>windows etc, I was wondering is it possible to build a vms box at home F >>>for a home project? I only have 2 years exp. working with vms as anD >>>operator and maybe a project like this would help me stay in "vms; >>>mode" like I can with unix, ie shell accounts and linux.C >>>tF >>>Any tips, info, websites, possible hardware specs, os possibilities$ >>>etc would be greatly appreciated. >>>  >>>Herbs >>>o >>>  >>>aC >>Sure, very well possible I'd say. A VAXstation 3100 (-38, -48) isn@ >>cheap, possibly even free but somewhat performance challenged.D >>A VAXstation 4000 (-60 or -90, -90A or -98) is much better but youI >>might have to pay for them, it just depends. I was given a 4000-90A fori >>free. B >>It is worth the effort, especially if you can manager to get twoJ >>machines, the second could be a regular VAX, so you can build a cluster.A >>Next, obtain a VAX/VMS distribution and licenses from Montagar.p >>Licenses you'd need are: >> >>VMS ("D" license),   >>UCX (or TCPIP) a >>DECnet >>G >>and a compiler if you feel like programming. Bliss is included on theeF >>freeware CD. C, Fortran, Pascal, Cobol and ADA are options but at a @ >>price. IIRC PL/I, Basic, and Coral-66 are no longer supported.B >>There used to be a free Modula-2 compiler (Univ. of Hamburg ???)    D A bit of mis-information.  VAX Basic and DEC BASIC on the Alpha are B fully supported products, and are on the media CDs available from F Montagar.  (I've only the VAX CD, so may be wrong about the Alpha CD.)    F >>Note that was VAX/VMS only, I have no idea about the availability ofH >>Alphas though a 3000 is probably cheap too nowadays. But a 3000-400 is& >>not much faster than a high end VAX. >> >>Good luck and have fun,1 >> >>Hans     -- l4 David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-04504 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      Fax: 724-529-0596> DFE Ultralights, Inc.              E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com6 T-Soft, Inc.  170 Grimplin Road  Vanderbilt, PA  15486   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 11:56:41 -0000t' From: "Keef" <hk11WRAPPER@ntlworld.com> @ Subject: Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible?C Message-ID: <5Cy28.90127$_x4.9095241@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>t  5 "Herb Asher" <joechip31@hotmail.com> wrote in messagee2 news:3c481b11.4583961@news1.uncensored-news.com...E > Any tips, info, websites, possible hardware specs, os possibilitiesm# > etc would be greatly appreciated.t  ' I've just embarked on the same mission.r  L I was given a VaxStation 3100 and bought a CD ROM drive (the TK50 tape drive8 that came with the 3100 appears to have blown a gasket).  F More at home with Windoze, Linux and OS/2 a copy of OpenVMS is proving challenging :-)e  ! These are good starting places :-     http://www.altavista.digital.com$ http://www-mpl.sri.com/hdefault.html$ http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/vs3100/  http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/vax/  http://saturn.tlug.org/suncdfaq/ http://www.montagar.comc http://www.decus.org.uk.   Good luck - Keithb   -- Dartford Kent UK0 Email:  hk11@nthellworld.co.uk or remove WRAPPER Fax -  +1 561 8280311s$ Webpages: http://www.gre.ac.uk/~hk11$ ####################################   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jan 2002 13:23:15 GMT( From: joechip31@hotmail.com (Herb Asher)@ Subject: Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible?7 Message-ID: <3c4ac45d.827620@news1.uncensored-news.com>-  E Thanks for the info, those links look very interesting. I will have al" browse over the next few days. :O)   Herb,  E On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 11:56:41 -0000, "Keef" <hk11WRAPPER@ntlworld.com>v wrote:  6 >"Herb Asher" <joechip31@hotmail.com> wrote in message3 >news:3c481b11.4583961@news1.uncensored-news.com...rF >> Any tips, info, websites, possible hardware specs, os possibilities$ >> etc would be greatly appreciated. > ( >I've just embarked on the same mission. > M >I was given a VaxStation 3100 and bought a CD ROM drive (the TK50 tape driven9 >that came with the 3100 appears to have blown a gasket).n >oG >More at home with Windoze, Linux and OS/2 a copy of OpenVMS is proving  >challenging :-) >h" >These are good starting places :- > ! >http://www.altavista.digital.comi% >http://www-mpl.sri.com/hdefault.html0% >http://www.vaxarchive.org/hw/vs3100/o! >http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/vax/i! >http://saturn.tlug.org/suncdfaq/n >http://www.montagar.com >http://www.decus.org.uk >r >Good luck - Keith    F ______________________________________________________________________R Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.comP    With NINE Servers In California And Texas - The Worlds Uncensored News Source      ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jan 2002 13:27:54 GMT( From: joechip31@hotmail.com (Herb Asher)@ Subject: Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible?8 Message-ID: <3c4bc578.1110877@news1.uncensored-news.com>  / On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 22:30:11 GMT, Tim Llewellyns' <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:l    G >> Also, any uk vms people who can recomend a retailer for decommisonedsI >> boxes? I have had a scan of the net, including ebay and it doesnt look 
 >> that good.  >eT >www.prodec.co.uk used to , but they don't seem to have the Digital section anymore. >t8 >How about a new low cost alpha from www.islandco.co.uk?       Tim,E Are you sure about that islandco.co.uk link? There is an islandco.comyA in the States but I need to look into import costs. Is there a UK  division of that company?t   Herb    F ______________________________________________________________________R Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.comP    With NINE Servers In California And Texas - The Worlds Uncensored News Source      ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jan 2002 13:54:17 GMT( From: joechip31@hotmail.com (Herb Asher)@ Subject: Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible?8 Message-ID: <3c4cc81a.1785277@news1.uncensored-news.com>  D Hi again, I have been looking at www.islandco.com with interest. HasC anyone purchased from them, and how about has anyone purchased fromtE them outside of the USA? I notice all the systems have a standard picnF for the box...are these refurb's that look like new or the sort of old? boxes you see lying around some datacenters ready for the skip?   : The system below is within my price range also taking intoF consideration import duties here in the UK but what else would I need?D Would the graphics capabilities of this box give me several colors?   F And lastly what sort of monitor would I need for this baby.. I presumeE it won't work with my Sony Trinatron hmd-a200 and if not maybe I will 8 purchase a cheaper end of the market 15inch flat screen.  D Sorry for all the questions, and thanks in advance to anyone who can give me some advice.  , The system I have been looking at is below:-   Regards, Herb  $ DEC Alpha Personal Workstation 500au  D Compaq Part Number SN-B3AAA-V5        Special Price $1099 Price Drop from $1299 !!!: Unix/VMS/Linux Configuration                                ' 500Mhz CPU 21164 EV56 2Mb Cache Module e& 256Mb Memory 10/100 Ethernet On Board 4 Permedia 2 Graphics 8MB or Matrox Millen. for Linux - Qlogic UW SCSI Ctr 12x SCSI CD 1.44Mb Floppy r/ LK97W-A2 keyboard  9.1GB  7.2K Disk SCSI UWide w 3 Button Mouse p    F ______________________________________________________________________R Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.comP    With NINE Servers In California And Texas - The Worlds Uncensored News Source      ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 06:31:41 -0800o# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> @ Subject: RE: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible?9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEJADPAA.tom@kednos.com>"   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net]* > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 7:41 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComoB > Subject: Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible? >  >  > Tom Linden wrote:r > > I > > Wow!, Thanks for the plug, Larry.  Actually if you have an Hobbyist'sw= > > License you can get PL/I for $250, and it is available onc > >  > > VAX 5.5-2 to 7.3 > > AXP 6.2 to 7.3 > > Tru64 4.0d to 5.1  > > F > > Documentation is free and may be downloaded from freja.kednos.com.? > > The kits are there as well, but you will need a license pakrF > > to activate them, obviously.  To obtain such a license you need toA > > send a copy of your Hobbyist License from Compaq and $250 to:p > [snip] > B > $250??!! WOW!  Any chance to whittle that down by 80% to 90%??!!  F Its $250 for licenses for all three.  If you only need one, it is $100H and if you really want it, we could probably make a pak for Ultrix/mips!  I > ....or is that a commercial license (you can code on a non-hobby systemd9 > and sell your product for a profit to recoup the cost)?c > G > Some folks have a lotta bux to throw at a hobby. Few (if any) of themi > are VMS folks. >  > -- t > David J. Dachteras > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r >    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:14:50 GMToL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")@ Subject: Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible?8 Message-ID: <00A0850A.9D13AFAB@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  c In article <3c4cc81a.1785277@news1.uncensored-news.com>, joechip31@hotmail.com (Herb Asher) writes:l >hE >Hi again, I have been looking at www.islandco.com with interest. Hasf >anyone purchased from thema  F Yes, and I am a happy customer.  (I'm sitting in front of my home box,J which is the noname 533au, using DECnet Phase V (on the IP stack) over DSL0 to get to the work machine where I read news.)    ) , and how about has anyone purchased from  >them outside of the USA?    Not I.  , I notice all the systems have a standard picG >for the box...are these refurb's that look like new or the sort of olds@ >boxes you see lying around some datacenters ready for the skip?  F The nonames come in what appears to be a new case.  Can't answer about the 500au systems.   >p; >The system below is within my price range also taking intomG >consideration import duties here in the UK but what else would I need?tE >Would the graphics capabilities of this box give me several colors? y   Yes. o   > G >And lastly what sort of monitor would I need for this baby.. I presume F >it won't work with my Sony Trinatron hmd-a200 and if not maybe I will9 >purchase a cheaper end of the market 15inch flat screen.i  I Don't know what the hmd-a200 does, but relatively modern Alphas work withtI standard PC-type monitors; I'm in front of a Princeton Ultra 72, and I'vel seen Viewsonic work.   >pE >Sorry for all the questions, and thanks in advance to anyone who cang >give me some advice.. >e- >The system I have been looking at is below:-o >n	 >Regards,e >Herb  > % >DEC Alpha Personal Workstation 500au  >0E >Compaq Part Number SN-B3AAA-V5        Special Price $1099 Price Drop. >from $1299 !!! ; >Unix/VMS/Linux Configuration                                >p( >500Mhz CPU 21164 EV56 2Mb Cache Module ' >256Mb Memory 10/100 Ethernet On Board d5 >Permedia 2 Graphics 8MB or Matrox Millen. for Linux n. >Qlogic UW SCSI Ctr 12x SCSI CD 1.44Mb Floppy 0 >LK97W-A2 keyboard  9.1GB  7.2K Disk SCSI UWide  >3 Button Mouse   N My advice is that if you really want to get into it and can really afford it, M you should just jump on this system, but if you're either hesitant or broke, tF you could buy one of the DECstation  3000/600s Roy Omond is selling.  5 (70 pounds is a good deal cheaper than one of these.)   O The 3000s are perfectly nice machines; I have a 3000/300LX (which is noticeablytO cheaper and slower than a 600) on my desk at work, and it's worked fine for me rO for years.  The 600 I've played with at work would be a perfectly adequate homepN system, especially if it only cost $150 fully configured.  The big drawback isM that the 3000 series use TurboChannel, not PCI, so if you wanted to get a lottL of peripherals that would be a drawback.  But if you just want to learn your* way around a VMS system, it would be fine.   -- Alan     O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056bM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210aO ===============================================================================O   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:54:09 GMT?  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>8 Subject: Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse!+ Message-ID: <3C4A77A2.10B4003F@prodigy.net>i  I I consider IBM more a financial services company than anything technical.n   Bob Ceculski wrote:h > ? > What makes IBM profitable?  It is not just software services. D > It is the hardware!  When you provide a superior hardware platformC > (power) that can run software that is secure, can scale well, andtA > run 24x7, then software services soar ... Capellas is doing theyB > opposite, he is giving away the industries best hardware (alpha)F > to a competitor and thinks software services will rake in the dough,D > except, because your competitors are all selling the same hardwareB > platform, you have just entered the same low dollar, high volumeC > market that pc's are in right now!  It's the hardware that drives C > software and services dummy!  Now power is not superior to alpha,aB > but it will be to itanium ... after ev7 moves aside for itanium,@ > IBM will take over.  IBM has got out of the pc business.  TheyG > know the future is the high end and server consolidation (mainframes)eD > are the future.  Now either Capellas and the whole board at Compaq? > are total idiots or they actually work secretly for intel ando; > microsoft.  Which is it?  I tend to believe the later ...-   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:45:19 GMTc= From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG (Brian Schenkenberger, VAXman-)n% Subject: Re: Dec2000 and Decserver 9030 Message-ID: <00A0850E.DF303A27@SendSpamHere.ORG>  b In article <3C4A2D50.8D655132@firstdbasource.com>, Michael Austin <miaustin@bellsouth.net> writes: >i >Jimbond wrote:U >> e? >> I'm trying to setup a DEC200AXP with a Decserver90 attached.l >> The server has 90L+ cards. O >> What I need is a list in order of installation of the software I need to geti
 >> this thinghL >> up and running. Any help, advise, direction or redicule will be helpfull. >o& >I believe the 90L+ can support TCPIP.  I This belief should be grouped with other beliefs such as Santa Claus, theh  Easter bunny and honest lawyers.  g --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            uJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesl   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:48:33 +03004& From: "Pogorelov V.S." <vspog@sbor.ru> Subject: Direct CD' Message-ID: <3C4AF4E1.469127EB@sbor.ru>i  C I want to use Direct CD formatted RW CD on my Alpha XP 1000 Is thisA	 possible?c --   VSPogf   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:57:37 GMTa1 From: Ed Wensell III <ewensell3@yahoo.commercial>  Subject: Re: Direct CD0 Message-ID: <3C4B04EF.E812684B@yahoo.commercial>   "Pogorelov V.S." wrote:t > E > I want to use Direct CD formatted RW CD on my Alpha XP 1000 Is this  > possible?n > -- > VSPogs  E AFAIK, DirectCD is a Adaptec-only thing. It can only be read by other.H systems that have the Adaptec DirectCD software installed. I don't thinkD Adaptec makes DirectCD for anything other than Mac or Windows (Linux maybe?).  E With that said, why not try placing data on the RW like a traditional C CD-R rather than using DirectCD? Adaptec's 'CD Copier' and 'Easy CD>E Creator' can use CD-RW disks just like CD-R. The only thing differenteG you need to do is erase the disk before each burn. Then any system withbE a CDROM built after 1998 [perhaps a little earlier] should be able to  read it like a normal CD.>   -- h Ed Wensell IIIE NetBSD/Alpha at home - Solaris/SPARC at work - OpenVMS in a past liferA E-mail address is valid if you know the appropriate bits to drop.h   wibble?h   ------------------------------  + Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:59:09 +0000 (UTC)e9 From: Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no>   Subject: Re: emacs21 help needed- Message-ID: <a2elvt$7q8$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>n  ' Roar Throns <roart@nvg.ntnu.no> wrote:n  5 : "Distribution" is at ftp.nvg.ntnu.no:/pub/vms/emacsn  * Now at emacs211_2.bck.gz. (Now almost 40M)   (Remember to install first)o  7 : (Start it with mcr []temacs_d -l loadup --debug-init)e   Also works with:1 mcr []temacs_d -map temacs.dump  -nw --debug-init   + : Then the following happens in sys$cantim:s: : SYSTEM-F-ASTFLT, AST fault, SP=00000000, param=00000000,K : PC=0000000000000000, PS=00000000, target PC=FFFFFFFF80A50B44, PS=0000001B"  H Worked my way around it with a condition handler, so it will not usually show up under ordinary use.n  F The keyboard routines still have problems (in 20.7 too) and need to be
 rewritten.  : And then there is a lot of work needed with the .el-files.  # This is far too big for just one...2  m Regards, Roar Throns   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:11:14 GMT  From: Robin <rlb@austin.rr.com>n  Subject: Newbie Help on Security- Message-ID: <3C4AEC17.2D6719E1@austin.rr.com>b  @ We have a DS10 running OpenVMS 7.3 with Compaq TCP/IP 5.1.  WhenC this server was originally installed I was told there would need tob> be no access thru the firewall to this machine -- local accessC only.  Now, they want certain users in remote offices to be able tol
 telnet in.  B I know that VMS is considered "unhackable" but I'm sure that comes2 with the caveat that security is set up correctly.  @ Can someone point me in the direction of some documentation thatD might be helpful to make sure this machine's security is tight?  I'dC like to be able to restrict access by IP address if at all possiblec' and any other restriction I can set up.a  B The documentation on Compaq's site seems to be very general or, asD might be the case, just flying over my head since my experience with? VMS system management is new.  I've ordered a system management.? guide for OpenVMS but it hasn't been published yet so I'm stillb waiting.   Thanks,  Robint   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:01:09 +0100 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>e1 Subject: Re: Purveyor is superior for VMS - proofa) Message-ID: <3C4B05E5.BA8F366A@gtech.com>a   Bob Ceculski wrote:M] > Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message news:<3C49B575.37BA876B@gtech.com>...g? > > Any web-server that supports DCL can run scripts written inh+ > > any language (including java and Perl).t > >/@ > > But performance usually sucks with that approach. Activating? > > the JVM or the Perl interpreter for each script call is notK% > > a solution for high-volume stuff.o > M > wrong ... we tested cgi scripting performance from every angle and it works#N > best to pass the www symbols/logicals to another executable (dibol) from dclO > and handle everything from there ... performance is terrific on alpha vms ...   H Why do you think that stuff like NSAPI, ISAPI/ASP, servlets/JSP, OSU MST etc. has been invented ?  G Because everybody knows that CGI with a heavy image activation per callw is not efficient enough.  D It works OK for low and medium volume. It does not work for high and	 very highc volumes.  A That is why everybody in the web-server business tries to developc# way to avoid that image-activation.c  9 Even you beloved Purveyor supports ISAPI for that reason.    Arne   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:10:38 GMTn- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>o+ Subject: RE: Rise and Fall of the MagaloidspD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.30.0201200908181.16155-100000@world.std.com>  % On Sat, 19 Jan 2002, Art Beane wrote:   F > >> Charlie Matco made his debut under the Terry Shannon pseudonym in > early 1983 >-I > Wow! Voices from the past. That's the year I met C Matco and T Shannon!hD > I might even have photographic proof hidden around here somewhere. >s >x  H Pictures. Drat, I *knew* this would happen sooner or later! On the otherI hand, if the pictures are system-resident bitmap images or the like, they_J may be subject to historical revisionism should they be found by Notorious Belgian Hacker Cedric Zool.c   terry ss5 who coincidentally will be in Brussels on the morrow.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:12:09 +0100e( From: "Nico de Jong" <nico@farumdata.dk>V Subject: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq ). Message-ID: <02w28.18$c36.850@news.get2net.dk>  + Maynard Handley <name99@mac.com> skrev i enG= nyhedsmeddelelse:name99-1901022143410001@handma2.apple.com... & > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:09 +01004 > > Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> wrote: > >sG > > PS> Let's face it - English is a crazy language. There is no egg inw	 eggplant,o. English is not the only one, I can assure you.J Danish: Yesterday, I saw a thing called "king-eel" in the shop. A study ofJ the declaration, showed that it hat never seen an eel in its life, but wasI filetted from a much bigger fish, and shaped as an eel. It is supposed toe _taste_  like smoked eel.cH Dutch : they have a course called "queen soup". I never saw a piece of a queen in my spoon.   Nico IU   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:09:53 -0500W% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>s Subject: TYPE suggestion, Message-ID: <3C4ADDB9.939220E9@videotron.ca>  N Perhaps add a /WINDOW=xx qualifier that would display only a selected "window"
 of each line.d  K for instance: /WINDOW=79 would only display the first 79 characters of eache line, or  T /WINDOW=(start:20, end:100) would display between column 20 and 100 (80 characters).  N Reson: when one displays log files that often span more than 80 characters, itL would make the log file far more readable since records wouldn't "fold" onto the next line.  N Similarly, for files with long record lengths, you could display only portions0 of a record and again make it far more readable.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:15:12 +0200K& From: Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@compaq.com> Subject: Re: TYPE suggestion* Message-ID: <3C4AFB1F.2536B071@compaq.com>   I really like this idea.I Since OpenVMS V7.3-1 release is closed, I will do my best to have this in0& OpenVMS V7.3-2 or maybe in future ECO.   Thanks for your suggestion.   	 Guy Peleg  OpenVMS Engineeringu   JF Mezei wrote:   P > Perhaps add a /WINDOW=xx qualifier that would display only a selected "window" > of each line.  >aM > for instance: /WINDOW=79 would only display the first 79 characters of eachA
 > line, or >cV > /WINDOW=(start:20, end:100) would display between column 20 and 100 (80 characters). > P > Reson: when one displays log files that often span more than 80 characters, itN > would make the log file far more readable since records wouldn't "fold" onto > the next line. >4P > Similarly, for files with long record lengths, you could display only portions2 > of a record and again make it far more readable.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:32:30 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> 1 Subject: TYPE/TAIL question (fixed record length)n, Message-ID: <3C4AE305.F95CADDA@videotron.ca>  M Why does TYPE/TAIL not work for fixed record length  files that have a recorde size less than 512 bytes ?  K I would have though that calculating the location of where to begin listingG2 would have been a no brainer for such a file type.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:59:27 GMTt From: 1076366@charter.net2* Subject: US-FL programmer available/wanted/ Message-ID: <3c4ae94e.9978768@news.charter.net>h    experience job wanted in Florida   vax/vms 18 years cobol 20 years   Ingres  9 yearst  ( contact 1076366@charter.net for details.  3 relocation is not required. interviewing next week.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:50:38 GMT  From: 1076366@charter.net  Subject: us-florida / Message-ID: <3c4ae704.9392736@news.charter.net>     experience job wanted in Florida   vax/vms 18 years cobol 20 years   Ingres  9 yearsl  ( contact 1076366@charter.net for details.  3 relocation is not required. interviewing next week.    ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:48:10 -0500 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>o# Subject: Re: Veritas Client for VMSt1 Message-ID: <3C4B10EA.A6D17F9@firstdbasource.com>   
 Nobody wrote:t >  > Hi everyone, > J > I am tasked with testing the Veritas Client for VMS and I was wondering: > - > - Has anyone had success implementing this?u+ > - What kind of gotchas have you run into? I > - Have you had problems restoring data during a data recovery exercise?tH > - Have you tried using the freeware VMS TAR to recover data from tape? > 8 > Any input you might have would be greatly appreciated. > 5 > Please direct any feedback to arobert@townisp.com .o > 	 > Thanks,N > Andrew Roberti > Principal Systems Analyst)* > Enterprise Technology Services - OpenVMS" > Massachusetts Financial Services > Phone: (617) 954-5882. > Fax:     (617) 954-7999t  F You will need to use VMS Backup for the system disk. I have never used> Veritas, but to those whom I have spoken, they only use it forF single-file type recovery. Full Disk bit-for-bit recovery (back/image)H can only be done via Backup.  While it looks good, I am not sure what itG does with .COM files because in the DOS world this is an executable nott a text file. -- e   Regards,  ) Michael Austin --  Currently available.  h< 18-year DEC veteran. System/Cluster, Database and WEB Admin.7 First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.come President/Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)s   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jan 2002 01:02:55 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)- Message-ID: <87it9yxohs.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   - Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:h  D > In 1964, 18 bits was a huge address space.  Even today, it is goodB > enough for many applications because 18 bits on a PDP-10 was the6 > equivalent of 20-21 bits on a byte-oriented machine.  @ Mark, you should know this, I was discussing it earlier tonight.  > Am I right that there was only one Full Moby (256K) PDP-6? One of the Stanford ones?,   -- l< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.s@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 02:34:48 -0500B  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>H Subject: Re: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D6 Message-ID: <1020120022024.19335C-100000@Ives.egh.com>  # On 19 Jan 2002, Carl Karcher wrote:   F > After applying patch VMS721_SYS-V1100 (to an Alphaserver 1200 5/533)I > and rebooting, PWRK$LMSRV.EXE (from Pathworks V6.0D) crashed the systemi > with:W > C >   "INVSECURESTATE, Invalid state detected by SECURITY subsystem" o > ( > shortly after starting up. The PC was: > ' > 	NSA$DEREFERENCE_RIGHTS_CHAIN_C+0008Ce > - > This was repeatable (same thing next time).t > J > After renaming the SECURITY.EXE_OLD and SECURITY_MON.EXE_OLD to *.EXE inH > SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES and rebooting the crash no longer occurred. We hadJ > previously installed VMS721_SYS-V1000 so the problem was introduced withD > V11 of this patch. The problem has been reported to CSC (Pathworks" > handed it off to the VMS group). > F > VMS721_SYS-V1100 was one of 14 patches I applied in a single PRODUCTD > INSTALL session followed by a single reboot. I've always done thisH > (except for one patch that said not too) and never had a problem. ThisH > time it was an example of the risks of applying more than one patch atJ > the same time. In this case the bugcheck code pretty much pointed to theI > SECURITY*.EXE images (and a search on DSNlink confirmed it) so recoveryiF > was fairly simple. Next time I may not be so lucky (but I had a good
 > backup).  G I encountered a similar problem with this ECO and TCPWARE's NFS client.=  G I reported it to Process Software, and last I heard, they had handed it  off to Compaq.  9 Same error at same PC, but coming from TCPWARE:NFSACP.EXE @ I had also installed a bunch of ECO's at once, but the system isC about 100 miles from me and I had to talk an operator through doing > a minimal reboot, renaming a file so NFS wouldn't try to mount> any disks, and then rebooting again so I could log in over the> network and back out the ECO.  I'm glad none of the file names were case-dependent!  B (To top it off, this was a Saturday morning, so I was working from< home, and my VPN connection to work died, and I had recentlyA re-arranged my work area at home, and hadn't yet run a phone lineuA over to where my PC is, so I was modemless until I did some quick D wiring.  Then I discovered my dialup networking wasn't there anymore? since I had recently converted from W98 to W2K, so I had to sete that up...  not a good day :-()e   -- k John Santosa Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:43:42 -0500t+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> H Subject: RE: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0DT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4016CE86B@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   John,e  D >>> I had also installed a bunch of ECO's at once, but the system isE about 100 miles from me and I had to talk an operator through doing ai minimal reboot, ..>>  E Sounds like a secure remote console capability requirement brewing ..2  
 Reference:/ http://www.tditx.com/products_consoleworks.htmlr  D This would allow you to be at the console ">>>" prompt from home. InH addition, a full log of all those patches and any errors would be in the' ConsoleWorks log file for later review.l   :-)e   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantm Compaq Canada Corp.C Professional Services9 Voice: 613-592-4660s Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----' From: John Santos [mailto:JOHN@egh.com]u Sent: January 20, 2002 2:35 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com H Subject: Re: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D    # On 19 Jan 2002, Carl Karcher wrote:s  F > After applying patch VMS721_SYS-V1100 (to an Alphaserver 1200 5/533)B > and rebooting, PWRK$LMSRV.EXE (from Pathworks V6.0D) crashed the system > with:  >=20E >   "INVSECURESTATE, Invalid state detected by SECURITY subsystem"=20n >=20( > shortly after starting up. The PC was: >=20' > 	NSA$DEREFERENCE_RIGHTS_CHAIN_C+0008C- >=20- > This was repeatable (same thing next time).r >=20G > After renaming the SECURITY.EXE_OLD and SECURITY_MON.EXE_OLD to *.EXE. inH > SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES and rebooting the crash no longer occurred. We hadE > previously installed VMS721_SYS-V1000 so the problem was introduced- withD > V11 of this patch. The problem has been reported to CSC (Pathworks" > handed it off to the VMS group). >=20F > VMS721_SYS-V1100 was one of 14 patches I applied in a single PRODUCTD > INSTALL session followed by a single reboot. I've always done thisH > (except for one patch that said not too) and never had a problem. ThisH > time it was an example of the risks of applying more than one patch atF > the same time. In this case the bugcheck code pretty much pointed to the @ > SECURITY*.EXE images (and a search on DSNlink confirmed it) so recoveryF > was fairly simple. Next time I may not be so lucky (but I had a good
 > backup).  G I encountered a similar problem with this ECO and TCPWARE's NFS client.e  G I reported it to Process Software, and last I heard, they had handed itT off to Compaq.  9 Same error at same PC, but coming from TCPWARE:NFSACP.EXEu@ I had also installed a bunch of ECO's at once, but the system isC about 100 miles from me and I had to talk an operator through doingf> a minimal reboot, renaming a file so NFS wouldn't try to mount> any disks, and then rebooting again so I could log in over the> network and back out the ECO.  I'm glad none of the file names were case-dependent!  B (To top it off, this was a Saturday morning, so I was working from< home, and my VPN connection to work died, and I had recentlyA re-arranged my work area at home, and hadn't yet run a phone lineoA over to where my PC is, so I was modemless until I did some quickrD wiring.  Then I discovered my dialup networking wasn't there anymore? since I had recently converted from W98 to W2K, so I had to set  that up...  not a good day :-()i   --=20t John SantosM Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:57:39 -0500"% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>iH Subject: Re: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D, Message-ID: <3C4AE8E8.DE4A0122@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > John,n > F > >>> I had also installed a bunch of ECO's at once, but the system isG > about 100 miles from me and I had to talk an operator through doing a- > minimal reboot, ..>> > G > Sounds like a secure remote console capability requirement brewing ..e >  > Reference:1 > http://www.tditx.com/products_consoleworks.htmlh    " Does consoleworks run on windows ?  M If so, wouldn't that be a problem in certain coorporations to allow a windows M box to be attached to a dial-up modem at one end and a serious machine at the  other ?y   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:11:38 +0200t& From: Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@compaq.com>H Subject: Re: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D) Message-ID: <3C4AFA4A.C8281C2@compaq.com>m   Carl,t  H This problem was solved by VMS Engineering. Please contact your favorite support center to get the fix.   Guys   Carl Karcher wrote:l  F > After applying patch VMS721_SYS-V1100 (to an Alphaserver 1200 5/533)I > and rebooting, PWRK$LMSRV.EXE (from Pathworks V6.0D) crashed the systeml > with:  >hB >   "INVSECURESTATE, Invalid state detected by SECURITY subsystem" >e( > shortly after starting up. The PC was: > . >         NSA$DEREFERENCE_RIGHTS_CHAIN_C+0008C >.- > This was repeatable (same thing next time).- >-J > After renaming the SECURITY.EXE_OLD and SECURITY_MON.EXE_OLD to *.EXE inH > SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES and rebooting the crash no longer occurred. We hadJ > previously installed VMS721_SYS-V1000 so the problem was introduced withD > V11 of this patch. The problem has been reported to CSC (Pathworks" > handed it off to the VMS group). >eF > VMS721_SYS-V1100 was one of 14 patches I applied in a single PRODUCTD > INSTALL session followed by a single reboot. I've always done thisH > (except for one patch that said not too) and never had a problem. ThisH > time it was an example of the risks of applying more than one patch atJ > the same time. In this case the bugcheck code pretty much pointed to theI > SECURITY*.EXE images (and a search on DSNlink confirmed it) so recoverylF > was fairly simple. Next time I may not be so lucky (but I had a good
 > backup).   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:16:46 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>wY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise    of comp 4 Message-ID: <VA.0000051e.41b32776@bluewin.delete.ch>  C In article <B86C95D7966811C1E@max1h-28.his.com>, Edward Rice wrote:i6 > In article <VA.00000511.1d1f8151@bluewin.delete.ch>,2 > Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> wrote: > 6 >  > REASONS WHY THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE IS HARD TO LEARN1 >  > 1) The bandage was wound around the wound...  > 8 > (I may have e-mailed this to you in past years, Paul.) >h) No, I think I would have remembered that.0  L > The story accompanying this little ditty is apocryphal.  (Definite, provenM > -- the story IS false.  It is a recent addition to a fairly old poem.)  ButaM > its still a lovely poem.  I got through it, but a few portions take eitherSJ > time or some minor adjustments to the syllabic emphasis.  I'm collecting > items to add to it, too. >  > ENGLISH IS TOUGH STUFF!o [snip]  I Wonderful stuff. I showed it to the (Swiss German speaking) folks at workr> and one guy's response was "That's what I've been telling you  about English all along" :-)  F Have you come across a book called "How to be an Alien"? I forget the E author's name, but he relates in an extremely amusing way what it was2: like being a foreigner in London back in the 1920s or 30s.  C Oh, when I was in the Netherlands and went to register as a foreignaK resident with the police I was greeted with "Welcome to the Strange Police"a) It was _hard_ to keep a straight face :-)  ___s
 Paul Sture Switzerland1   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:37:42 +0100 , From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>V Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq )7 Message-ID: <20020120103742.0b8f8aac.steveo@eircom.net>a  " On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:43:41 -0800' name99@mac.com (Maynard Handley) wrote:e  R MH> >         I have long believed that English is a language well evolved for theN MH> > purpose of shading the truth, saying nothing in many words and providingH MH> > plausible deniability no matter what was said - in short politics. MH> = MH> And your linguistic qualifications and knowledge of other-N MH> languages---Japanese, Arabic, Mandarin, Russian, Swahili are what exactly?  A 	Irrelevant since I have made no statement about what these otherrG languages may be suitable for, nor have I made any comparison with themlM or any other languages. Are you trying to suggest that all of these languageshE are better than English for the purpose described, if so such a claim H would have to rest on *your* linguistic qualifications not mine. PerhapsJ you are capable of ranking the languages of the world by their suitability+ for various purposes, I make no such claim.   J MH> Christ, I am so sick of these "based on my complete ignorance of everyN MH> other language [or nation or culture] on Earth I proclaim that English [orN MH> the US or Christians] are the [most | least] [awful | decent | difficult |* MH> greedy | kind | etc ] ever" type post.  ? 	Read my words, I said no such thing. English *is* good for themH purposes I describe, far better at these purposes than it is for logicalJ discourse or description of reality. Note that I did not compare it to anyH other language, for all I know this may be a universal tendency in humanI language. I cannot speak to this point for many other languages, and so I L did not. If you can then perhaps you would care to do so rather then hurling abuse.  D 	You, sir, have misread my words and jumped down my throat followingK a bee in your own bonnet, kindly extract yourself (and the damned bee) from  my epiglottis.   -- aH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:52:55 +0100i- From: "FutureGuy !" <davidus@koallitnest.net>e Subject: Yust some news...9 Message-ID: <iss.4020.3c4af5f0.9c1dc.1@mx2.west.saic.com>T  > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">   <html> <head> 	<title>Valentine Day</title>o </head>c  H <body><br><font face="tahoma" color="#000000" size="4"><br><center><font> face="tahoma" color="#000000" size="4"><b>WWW.</B></font><font face="tahoma" color="#CC0033" < size="5"><b><i>yourloveone</i></b></font><font face="tahoma"5 color="#000000" size="5"><b>.LOVE</b></font></center>t <br><br>J <center><pre><font face="arial"><b>A .LOVE domain name is the perfect gift# for your Valentine or loved ones ! rB Give a gift that is truly unique and special. </b></font><br><font  face="arial" color="#CC0033"><b>C MY TIPP: register your love"s name, get free web site software and eA make her or him perfect gift, personal web site which newer die, aC as your love to her or him !</b></font></pre><br><font face="arial"o size="1">enter here</font><br>3 <center><a href="http://www.futuredomains.org"><imga@ src="http://www.futuredomains.org/images/main_holiday_promo.gif"8 width="231" height="111" alt="" border="0"></a></center>> <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><font face="arial"= size="1"><b>NOW, DON"T MISS SUCH OFER !!!</B></font></center>aF <br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><center><font face="arial"= size="1">If you no longer wish to receive special offers from 5 futuredomains.org, just reply blank message. Click <atI href="mailto:info@futuredomains.org">here</a> to send it.</font></center>aD <center><font face="arial" size="1">If you already unscribed, than II apolognize for inconvenience, I had some throble whit mailing program butu/ it won"t hapen again, promise !</font></center>n </body>k </html>r   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jan 2002 14:18:14 GMT( From: joechip31@hotmail.com (Herb Asher)Y Subject: Re: [Change topic]  Cheap DEC 3000-600s for sale in the UK - ideal hobbyist mach18 Message-ID: <3c4dd0f5.4051726@news1.uncensored-news.com>  C Roy, I didnt see an email in my hotmail account. Maybe it's on it's D way still... can you email me at joechip at sunstruck . clara . co . uk v  ? Please reconstruct the email, maybe I avoid spam this way.. :O),   Herb    D On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:45:21 +0000, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> wrote:   >Herb Asher wrote: >lG >> Can someone post me a short list of the main vax boxes that would beaH >> suitable for home project use and things like on board memory, speed,9 >> and would they be usable with a pc monitor and mouse..l >>G >> Before I left my last job we installed some blue boxes, i'm not surenI >> if they were alpha's but maybe they were. We were able to use these on:G >> our pc monitor's and they had some color in decwindows as apposed toiD >> the normal vt green or grey. Any idea what these boxes would haveI >> been, they were desktops not towers and I remember support saying theyiA >> were not amazingly fast just better than the old boxes we had.w >>G >> Also, any uk vms people who can recomend a retailer for decommisonedhI >> boxes? I have had a scan of the net, including ebay and it doesnt lookr
 >> that good.F >> >yO >Well, I'm certainly not a retailer, but (as I have indicated to you by e-mail) I >I have a bunch of machines for sale.  They're mostly DEC 3000-600 models M >each with 128 Mbytes memory (perfectly adequate for VMS), (at least) 1 Gbyte G >system disk (RZ26), some with CD, some with graphics (PMAGB), all with L >FDDI (DEFTA).  VMS 7.3 pre-installed, ideal for hobbyists (which I'm tryingI >to encourage).  These were rack-mount machines, so they're not "pretty".> >uJ >They can come with NetBSD 1.5.2 pre-installed if you're that way inclined) >(washes mouth out with carbolic soap ;-)g >oT >My location is in the picturesque village of Great Chesterford, near Saffron Walden1 >(north-west Essex), 10 miles south of Cambridge.R >MC >I'm looking for ca. ?70.00 each, depending on additional features.  >V
 >Roy Omond >Blue Bubble Ltd.c    F ______________________________________________________________________R Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.comP    With NINE Servers In California And Texas - The Worlds Uncensored News Source      ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:45:21 +0000e From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>2Y Subject: [Change topic]  Cheap DEC 3000-600s for sale in the UK - ideal hobbyist machinese) Message-ID: <3C4AC9F1.9AC8342F@Omond.net>o   Herb Asher wrote:   F > Can someone post me a short list of the main vax boxes that would beG > suitable for home project use and things like on board memory, speed,c8 > and would they be usable with a pc monitor and mouse.. > F > Before I left my last job we installed some blue boxes, i'm not sureH > if they were alpha's but maybe they were. We were able to use these onF > our pc monitor's and they had some color in decwindows as apposed toC > the normal vt green or grey. Any idea what these boxes would haveuH > been, they were desktops not towers and I remember support saying they@ > were not amazingly fast just better than the old boxes we had. >dF > Also, any uk vms people who can recomend a retailer for decommisonedH > boxes? I have had a scan of the net, including ebay and it doesnt look > that good. >t  N Well, I'm certainly not a retailer, but (as I have indicated to you by e-mail)H I have a bunch of machines for sale.  They're mostly DEC 3000-600 modelsL each with 128 Mbytes memory (perfectly adequate for VMS), (at least) 1 GbyteF system disk (RZ26), some with CD, some with graphics (PMAGB), all withK FDDI (DEFTA).  VMS 7.3 pre-installed, ideal for hobbyists (which I'm tryingVH to encourage).  These were rack-mount machines, so they're not "pretty".  I They can come with NetBSD 1.5.2 pre-installed if you're that way inclinedd( (washes mouth out with carbolic soap ;-)  S My location is in the picturesque village of Great Chesterford, near Saffron Waldent0 (north-west Essex), 10 miles south of Cambridge.  B I'm looking for ca. 70.00 each, depending on additional features.  	 Roy Omond6 Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:03:10 GMTm1 From: Ed Wensell III <ewensell3@yahoo.commercial>R> Subject: Re: [OT / Humor] Things not to do on a *nix system...0 Message-ID: <3C4A6B5D.86DED979@yahoo.commercial>   Carl Perkins wrote:p >r4 > Sure, but how many things would it actually break? > I > I don't think very many things on VMS require a writeable NLA0: device.nF > From the above, it looks like simply logging in requires a writeableF > /dev/null on Solaris. (I can't imagine why - what is the login doingD > that requires it to write, ar at least be able to write, something > to nowhere?) > 
 > --- Carl   Just to insert....  H Isn't their an old bug where a 'normal' user could crash an OpenVMS (7.1C and earlier?) system by issuing an oddly formed TYPE command on NL:i" (IIRC, in combination with PIPE)??  F The moral of the story is all systems have their issues. Although *NIXF tends to be funnier. One would think a 30-year old OS would have theseF things figured out by now. Too bad the 30-year old *NIX and it's spawn9 are too stubborn to learn from the 20-something VMS... :)o   --   Ed Wensell IIIE NetBSD/Alpha at home - Solaris/SPARC at work - OpenVMS in a past lifehA E-mail address is valid if you know the appropriate bits to drop.P   wibble?X   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:10:26 +0100E. From: Dennis Grevenstein <dennis@pcde.inka.de>> Subject: Re: [OT / Humor] Things not to do on a *nix system..., Message-ID: <3C4ADDE2.947E4281@pcde.inka.de>   Dean Woodward wrote: > A > Shame he forgot to fix the file permissions on his new improvednC > "/dev/null" so that common users could write to it, though... ;-)t   Once I had a similar problem. B Installing a software (I can't remember which one) somehow changedA /devices/pseudo/mm@0:null (the thing behind /dev/null on Solaris)d? so that it was only read and writeable for root. All others hadM no right to read or write.@ The only effect was that uucp refused to work and I needed quiteA some time to find out why. That was on a SPARC running Solaris 7.    Dennis   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 18:36:35 +0100k= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>cB Subject: Re: [Q] Why is there the limit of 8 levels of directories) Message-ID: <3C4B0023.9F63627F@gtech.com>t   Bill Todd wrote:] > "Arne Vajhj" <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message news:3C49D924.BF0483F5@gtech.com...  > > Bill Todd wrote:C > > > > A good guess would be that each level adds a small overheadwF > > > > to accessing a file. It is nothing on an EV6 Alpha. But it mayJ > > > > actually have been noticable on VAX 7xx's. I think VMS engineering5 > > > > tried to protect people from bad performance.  > > > Q > > > It's almost exactly the same performance hit on an EV6 Alpha as it was on aNO > > > uVAX I, since virtually all the perceivable overhead is in the additionalvN > > > disk accesses (well, disks have gotten faster too, but nowhere nearly as > > > much so).T > > > > > 1)  Disks has become a lot faster from VAX 7xx's to EV6's.B > >     Maybe "just" a factor 20-100, but that may be noticeable ! > I > IIRC hard disk seek times (the dominating factor in perceived deep-pathsN > look-up performance) have improved by about a factor of 10 over the past two4 > decades (and I did mention such improvement above,  A 1)  Disk seek time would have been the only relevant factor for adD     PC running MS-DOS. On a multi-user OS the relevant factor is theC     time the average IO takes to complete (in which seek time is ana,     important factor, but not the only one).  F 2)  And even if it is just a factor 10, then I do not think it qualify forw"     the "almost exactly the same".  M >                                                    though it has nothing toiA > do with the comparison you made, which was between processors).i   ????   Do you read what I write ?  ? Since when has a "VAX 7xx" and a "EV6 Alpha" been a processor ?e  I >                                                                 And thetM > *percentage* incremental cost of adding a directory level is still the samen > in both cases.   Ofcourse ! And ?  F If the absolute cost goes sufficiently down, then then a difference in# relative cost gets less important !o  B > > 2)  VMS has cached directories for a long time. And then it is6 > >     CPU and memory that determines speed not disk. > K > If you've got an early VAX handy, I suspect you'll find that there's *no*wG > noticeable difference in response-time between, say, a 3-level and anpM > 8-level look-up, if all levels are indeed cached:  there wasn't *that* mucht% > extra processing activity involved.h  H Now - I do not happend to have a VAX 780 and a RA82 disk cabinet around.   So I can not test.   You may be rigth !  > I do not know. It was my best guess of why the limit was made.   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 19:05:17 +0100i= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>CB Subject: Re: [Q] Why is there the limit of 8 levels of directories) Message-ID: <3C4B06DD.D7E2D62C@gtech.com>I   Glenn Everhart wrote:nQ > Chances are this notion of increased time for deeper directories is an artifacto > of unix thinking._  2 My guess was not. Because I know nothing about how Unix internals work.  3 Glen do you have any knowledge or guesses about why A VMS engineering put in that limit if it was not for performance ?a   Arne   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.038 ************************