0 INFO-VAX	Tue, 22 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 41      Contents:& Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"!& Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"! Re: $FAO tips & triks  Re: $FAO tips & triks : Re: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMS: RE: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMS Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: Asking  your opinion Re: Asking  your opinion Re: Asking  your opinion Re: Asking  your opinion Re: Asking  your opinion9 Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows! 9 Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows! 9 Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows! 4 Re: Bill Gates: No Trustworthy Platform exists today& Re: C++ appears to be available online Re: Change quorum disk question  Re: Change quorum disk question * Re: Congratulations for the festive season DCL "compiler"? (not checker) ! Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker)  Encompass Points, Edition IV; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!  Re: GNV Update now availableA i am randy! (was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  Is info-vax working  Re: Is info-vax working  Re: Is info-vax working  Re: Newbie Help on Security , Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up!( Re: Purveyor is superior for VMS - proofP Re: RDB/ELN (was: Incredibly idiocy in CNN headline financial analysis  of CompaP Re: RDB/ELN (was: Incredibly idiocy in CNN headline financial analysis of CompaqP Re: RDB/ELN (was: Incredibly idiocy in CNN headline financial analysis of Compaq Re: RMS Journaling' Re: show system reports wrong NODE NAME P Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise ofcompaq ) Re: TYPE suggestion  VAXBI DSSI? 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) ? Re: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D ? Re: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D & Re: What has happened to HELP SPECIFY?; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise of compaq P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The demise       of compP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The demise       of compP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The demise       of compO Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of   compaq ) N Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of  compaq )P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq ) co  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:14:28 +0000 (UTC) - From: Jamie Stallwood <jamie@project76.co.uk> / Subject: Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"! 8 Message-ID: <q1qo4u8bicig0i0mld6pnoeu3pkhjs0kv1@4ax.com>  E Of course you could just use string descriptors in C... it would seem  churlish not to.   Jamie   A On 21 Jan 2002 10:01:52 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)  wrote:  n >bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0201210722.7a1b8f49@posting.google.com>...O >> Sounds like any os written in "c" should be avoided ... which means use vms!  >>   >> from another post ... >>  L >> The C language does not suport any string handling.  Its standard runtimeI >> library has quite a few routines that treat arrays of char as strings, M >> copying a char at a time from one starting address to another until a null K >> terminator is found in the source string, which forces the programmer to K >> find the null terminator of every source string and check it against the M >> length of its destination buffer.  Until yesterday, with a few exceptions, O >> Microsoft never took that responsibility seriously, and neither did a lot of J >> UNIX developers.  If they follow Bill Gates' new directive, Microsoft'sO >> developers will have to go back and review untold millions of lines of code, E >> looking for buffer overflow opportunities.  There are so many such N >> opportunities that finding and fixing all of them might well be impossible. >>  H >> VMS, on the other hand, had string descriptors built into its callingN >> sequence on the first day way back in 1977, and developers have always beenO >> encouraged to use them, even in Macro, where it's easy to call LIB$ and STR$ O >> routines for handling strings.  When using descriptors is standard practice, M >> as it has been since day one, the opportunities for buffer overflow simply  >> don't happen. >>  M >> Think of using descriptors as flying the helium-filled Goodyear blimp, and O >> having to find the null terminator of every string before using it as flying N >> the hydrogen-filled Hindenberg.  A lousy pilot can crash the Goodyear blimpE >> into a building, but even if he smokes, he can't light the helium.  >>  5 >>  Tony Scandora, Argonne National Lab, 630-252-7541  >> scandora@cmt.anl.gov  > N >I hope the vms group is reading this before they get too "C" happy in vms ...   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 02:52:03 GMT 4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>/ Subject: Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"! 0 Message-ID: <3C4CD2EC.B819DD6D@blueyonder.co.uk>   Bob Ceculski wrote:  >  > O > I hope the vms group is reading this before they get too "C" happy in vms ...   " bob, you are over a decade to late     --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:18:58 -0000 3 From: "Malcolm" <malcolm@neverness.freeserve.co.uk>  Subject: Re: $FAO tips & triks/ Message-ID: <a2hlt3$vdd$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>   ? "Ruslan R. Laishev" <laishev@smtp.deltatel.ru> wrote in message * news:3C49231C.CD2797BB@smtp.deltatel.ru... > Hi !G > Thanks for the very nice example, but you use looping, is there a way  > w/o loop ? >  >  Hmmm.   ! Roughly, you want something like:   5 /* C- like pseudocode: Note! This will NOT compile */   /* offset = offset into array */ loop: G status = SYS$FAO("!XB!XB!XB!XB !XB!XB!XB!XB !XB!XB!XB!XB !XB!XB!XB!XB",  output_len, output_buf, D                                    array[offset+0], array[offset+1],! array[offset+2], array[offset+3], D                                    array[offset+4], array[offset+5],! array[offset+6], array[offset+7], D                                    array[offset+8], array[offset+9],# array[offset+10], array[offset+11], F                                    array[offset+12], array[offset+13],$ array[offset+14], array[offset+15]); offset=offset+16; ) /* assuming array is an array of bytes */ 
 goto loop;  F However, there is a limit on the number of parameters to SYS$FAO (17).  H If you need more than the limit, you will need to construct a _parameter list_, according to the help.   H I don't understand the HELP (but then I am not familiar with the CallingD Standard, so I don't know what a "varying_arg" is. But you'd need toI construct these varying_args for each parameter. See HELP SYSTEM_SERVICES < $FAO and the manuals on http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/.  H What language are you programming in? If you are using C (or C++), and CJ arrays, you might want to consider the %X printf() directive. It will saveI the bother of building descriptors, etc. And, if you want to use $PUT and I $GET, or some other VMS call on the data that needs descriptors, remember G you can use sprintf() and construct a descriptor for the output string.   5 /* C- like pseudocode: Note! This will NOT compile */   /* offset = offset into array */ loop: ; printf("%.2X%.2X%.2X%.2X %.2X%.2X%.2X %.2X %.2X%.2X%.2X%.2X  %.2X%.2X%.2X%.2X",D                                    array[offset+0], array[offset+1],! array[offset+2], array[offset+3], D                                    array[offset+4], array[offset+5],! array[offset+6], array[offset+7], D                                    array[offset+8], array[offset+9],# array[offset+10], array[offset+11], F                                    array[offset+12], array[offset+13],$ array[offset+14], array[offset+15]); offset = offset+16; , /* assuming array is an array of bytes... */
 goto loop;  J You also might need to play with the order to get the bytes printed out in the order you want.   F I don't know enough about the problem (or how to fix it ;) to give any better advice.  	 -Malcolm.  > Malcolm wrote: > > C > > "Ruslan R. Laishev" <laishev@smtp.deltatel.ru> wrote in message . > > news:3C487449.8F64C274@smtp.deltatel.ru... > > > Hello All!L > > > I'd like to print some byte array in a hex form, is there any tips andC > > > triks how to do this w/o loops by using only $FAO directive ?  > > >  > > > -- > > Hmm. repeated uses of !XB. > > J > > But, here's a nice trick. It prints an ASCII character table in DCL by$ > > exploiting the 'plural' support: > >  > > Very fast. > > 
 > > -Malcolm.  > > ) > > $! ASCIITAB.COM - Show an ASCII table  > > $! > > $! Control chars..K > > $ CTRLCHR_FAO = "!0UL!0%C<NUL>!1%C<SOH>!2%C<STX>!3%C<ETX>!4%C<EOT>" + - K > >                 "!5%C<ENQ>!6%C<ACK>!7%C<BEL>!8%C<BS> !9%C<HT> !10%C<LF>  "  > > + - L > >                 "!11%C<VT> !12%C<FF> !13%C<CR> !14%C<SO> !15%C<SI> " + -K > >                 "!16%C<DLE>!17%C<DC1>!18%C<DC2>!19%C<DC3>!20%C<DC4>"+ - K > >                 "!21%C<NAK>!22%C<SYN>!23%C<ETB>!24%C<CAN>!25%C<EM> "+ - K > >                 "!26%C<SUB>!27%C<ESC>!28%C<FS> !29%C<GS> !30%C<RS> "+ - A > >                 "!31%C<US> !32%C<SPC>!127%C<DEL>!%E8-BIT?!%F" 4 > > $ CTRLCHR8_FAO= "!0UL!128%C<x80>!129%C<x81>" + -  > >                 "!130%C<x82>0 !131%C<x83>!132%C<IND>!133%C<NEL>!134%C<SSA>"+ -  > >                 "!135%C<ESA>0 !136%C<HTS>!137%C<HTJ>!138%C<VTS>!139%C<PLD>"+ -* > >                 "!140%C<PLU>!141%C<RI>% !142%C<SS2>!143%C<SS3>!144%C<DCS>"+ - K > >                 "!145%C<PU1>!146%C<PU2>!147%C<STS>!148%C<CCH>!149%C<MW>  "+ -  > >                 "!150%C<SPA>0 !151%C<EPA>!152%C<x98>!153%C<x99>!154%C<x9A>"+ -: > >                 "!155%C<CSI>!156%C<ST> !157%C<OSC>"+ -B > >                 "!158%C<PM> !159%C<APC>!256%C[End]!%ENONCC!%F" > > $ base=0
 > > $ mult=32  > > $ offset=0
 > > $ line=""  > > $ loop:  > > $ chr = base+(mult*offset) > > $ hexchr = f$fao("!XB",chr) # > > $ ctrl = f$fao(ctrlchr_fao,chr) @ > > $ if ctrl .eqs. "8-BIT?" then ctrl = f$fao(ctrlchr8_fao,chr) > > $ if ctrl .eqs. "NONCC" 
 > > $ then > > $   thechr[0,8] = %X'hexchr / > > $   line=line+" "+hexchr+"   "+thechr+"  |" 
 > > $ else) > > $   line=line+" "+hexchr+" "+ctrl+"|"  > > $ endif  > > $ offset = offset+1  > > $ if offset .eq. 8
 > > $ then > > $   write sys$output line  > > $   line=""  > > $   offset=0 > > $   base=base+1  > > $ endif $ > > $ if base .le. 31 then goto loop > >  > > > Cheers, Ruslan. J > > > +---------------------pure personal opinion------------------------+A > > >       RADIUS Server for OpenVMS project - www.radiusvms.com > > > >         vms-isps@dls.net - Forum for ISP running OpenVMS0 > > >                  Mobile: +7 (901) 971-3222G > > >    TKD (WTF) in Russia, St.-Petersburg - www.TaeKwonDo-WTF.SPb.RU  >  > -- > Cheers, Ruslan. F > +---------------------pure personal opinion------------------------+= >       RADIUS Server for OpenVMS project - www.radiusvms.com : >         vms-isps@dls.net - Forum for ISP running OpenVMS, >                  Mobile: +7 (901) 971-3222C >    TKD (WTF) in Russia, St.-Petersburg - www.TaeKwonDo-WTF.SPb.RU    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:16:46 +0300 4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <laishev@smtp.deltatel.ru> Subject: Re: $FAO tips & triks0 Message-ID: <3C4C772E.CA722672@smtp.deltatel.ru>   Hello Malcolm, 	thanks for the help.    Malcolm wrote: > A > "Ruslan R. Laishev" <laishev@smtp.deltatel.ru> wrote in message , > news:3C49231C.CD2797BB@smtp.deltatel.ru... > > Hi !I > > Thanks for the very nice example, but you use looping, is there a way  > > w/o loop ? > >  > >  > Hmmm.  > # > Roughly, you want something like:  > 7 > /* C- like pseudocode: Note! This will NOT compile */ " > /* offset = offset into array */ > loop: I > status = SYS$FAO("!XB!XB!XB!XB !XB!XB!XB!XB !XB!XB!XB!XB !XB!XB!XB!XB",  > output_len, output_buf, F >                                    array[offset+0], array[offset+1],# > array[offset+2], array[offset+3], F >                                    array[offset+4], array[offset+5],# > array[offset+6], array[offset+7], F >                                    array[offset+8], array[offset+9],% > array[offset+10], array[offset+11], H >                                    array[offset+12], array[offset+13],& > array[offset+14], array[offset+15]); > offset=offset+16; + > /* assuming array is an array of bytes */  > goto loop; > H > However, there is a limit on the number of parameters to SYS$FAO (17). > J > If you need more than the limit, you will need to construct a _parameter > list_, according to the help.  > J > I don't understand the HELP (but then I am not familiar with the CallingF > Standard, so I don't know what a "varying_arg" is. But you'd need toK > construct these varying_args for each parameter. See HELP SYSTEM_SERVICES > > $FAO and the manuals on http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/. > J > What language are you programming in? If you are using C (or C++), and CL > arrays, you might want to consider the %X printf() directive. It will saveK > the bother of building descriptors, etc. And, if you want to use $PUT and K > $GET, or some other VMS call on the data that needs descriptors, remember I > you can use sprintf() and construct a descriptor for the output string.  > 7 > /* C- like pseudocode: Note! This will NOT compile */ " > /* offset = offset into array */ > loop: = > printf("%.2X%.2X%.2X%.2X %.2X%.2X%.2X %.2X %.2X%.2X%.2X%.2X  > %.2X%.2X%.2X%.2X",F >                                    array[offset+0], array[offset+1],# > array[offset+2], array[offset+3], F >                                    array[offset+4], array[offset+5],# > array[offset+6], array[offset+7], F >                                    array[offset+8], array[offset+9],% > array[offset+10], array[offset+11], H >                                    array[offset+12], array[offset+13],& > array[offset+14], array[offset+15]); > offset = offset+16; . > /* assuming array is an array of bytes... */ > goto loop; > L > You also might need to play with the order to get the bytes printed out in > the order you want.  > H > I don't know enough about the problem (or how to fix it ;) to give any > better advice. >  > -Malcolm.  > > Malcolm wrote: > > > E > > > "Ruslan R. Laishev" <laishev@smtp.deltatel.ru> wrote in message 0 > > > news:3C487449.8F64C274@smtp.deltatel.ru... > > > > Hello All!N > > > > I'd like to print some byte array in a hex form, is there any tips andE > > > > triks how to do this w/o loops by using only $FAO directive ?  > > > > 
 > > > > --  > > > Hmm. repeated uses of !XB. > > > L > > > But, here's a nice trick. It prints an ASCII character table in DCL by& > > > exploiting the 'plural' support: > > >  > > > Very fast. > > >e > > > -Malcolm.a > > > + > > > $! ASCIITAB.COM - Show an ASCII tableF > > > $! > > > $! Control chars..M > > > $ CTRLCHR_FAO = "!0UL!0%C<NUL>!1%C<SOH>!2%C<STX>!3%C<ETX>!4%C<EOT>" + -pM > > >                 "!5%C<ENQ>!6%C<ACK>!7%C<BEL>!8%C<BS> !9%C<HT> !10%C<LF>o > "n	 > > > + - N > > >                 "!11%C<VT> !12%C<FF> !13%C<CR> !14%C<SO> !15%C<SI> " + -M > > >                 "!16%C<DLE>!17%C<DC1>!18%C<DC2>!19%C<DC3>!20%C<DC4>"+ - M > > >                 "!21%C<NAK>!22%C<SYN>!23%C<ETB>!24%C<CAN>!25%C<EM> "+ -sM > > >                 "!26%C<SUB>!27%C<ESC>!28%C<FS> !29%C<GS> !30%C<RS> "+ - C > > >                 "!31%C<US> !32%C<SPC>!127%C<DEL>!%E8-BIT?!%F"G6 > > > $ CTRLCHR8_FAO= "!0UL!128%C<x80>!129%C<x81>" + -" > > >                 "!130%C<x82>2 > !131%C<x83>!132%C<IND>!133%C<NEL>!134%C<SSA>"+ -" > > >                 "!135%C<ESA>2 > !136%C<HTS>!137%C<HTJ>!138%C<VTS>!139%C<PLD>"+ -, > > >                 "!140%C<PLU>!141%C<RI>' > !142%C<SS2>!143%C<SS3>!144%C<DCS>"+ -rM > > >                 "!145%C<PU1>!146%C<PU2>!147%C<STS>!148%C<CCH>!149%C<MW>l > "+ -" > > >                 "!150%C<SPA>2 > !151%C<EPA>!152%C<x98>!153%C<x99>!154%C<x9A>"+ -< > > >                 "!155%C<CSI>!156%C<ST> !157%C<OSC>"+ -D > > >                 "!158%C<PM> !159%C<APC>!256%C[End]!%ENONCC!%F" > > > $ base=0 > > > $ mult=32  > > > $ offset=0 > > > $ line="".
 > > > $ loop:e  > > > $ chr = base+(mult*offset)! > > > $ hexchr = f$fao("!XB",chr)y% > > > $ ctrl = f$fao(ctrlchr_fao,chr).B > > > $ if ctrl .eqs. "8-BIT?" then ctrl = f$fao(ctrlchr8_fao,chr) > > > $ if ctrl .eqs. "NONCC"  > > > $ then! > > > $   thechr[0,8] = %X'hexchr 1 > > > $   line=line+" "+hexchr+"   "+thechr+"  |"i > > > $ else+ > > > $   line=line+" "+hexchr+" "+ctrl+"|"e
 > > > $ endif  > > > $ offset = offset+1  > > > $ if offset .eq. 8 > > > $ then > > > $   write sys$output line- > > > $   line=""s > > > $   offset=0 > > > $   base=base+1 
 > > > $ endifl& > > > $ if base .le. 31 then goto loop   -- p Cheers, Ruslan. D +---------------------pure personal opinion------------------------+;       RADIUS Server for OpenVMS project - www.radiusvms.com 8         vms-isps@dls.net - Forum for ISP running OpenVMS*                  Mobile: +7 (901) 971-3222A    TKD (WTF) in Russia, St.-Petersburg - www.TaeKwonDo-WTF.SPb.RUg   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:54:27 GMTu# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>sC Subject: Re: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMSt/ Message-ID: <7e%28.1173$Okf.492@news2.bloor.is>S   Sue,  K Please pass this along to your legal dept. so they can make the appropriaten> changes to the course descriptions and designations in Canada.  I They can contact the following professional licencing body for the rules:n Professional Engineers Ontario 25 Sheppard Avenue West  Toronto, Ontario Canada   M2N 6S6 Phone: (416) 224-1100e  2 Save yourselves the lawyers bills and court costs.    ? In the US, the term 'Engineer' can be, and is used, in a ratherdL fast-'n'-loose way. Generally accepted to be somebody who designs or createsD something in traditional engineering disciplines, or in the field ofC software development, someone who deals with numerical methods [notnK accounting :-) ] in the financial services field, or the guy who drives thee train.  J However, only the person who has P.E. after their name is a true engineer.    K The term 'Engineer' is a legally protected concept/title in Canada. One hasnK to be a graduate of an accredited engineering school in one of the acceptede> disciplines (mechanical, civil, aerospace, mining, geological,L metallurgical, civil, industrial, electrical, etc...), and then certified by the-D appropriate licencing body after having had suitable work experienceI post-graduation.   P.Eng is the official designation. This is codified in. law.  F The Canadian licensing bodies regularly slap Microsoft, Cisco, Compaq,J and anyone else who tries to use the term 'engineer' in their designations or advertising.t    I BTW, in Canada the terms MCSE, CNE, etc... may not be expanded - they areiC just meaningless collections of letters, even if the holder of saide0 designation IS a licenced Professional Engineer.    - Your mileage in other jurisdictions may vary.y        = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message>, news:lwJ%7.593$5Y4.15922@news.cpqcorp.net...J > North America folks who maintain the web pages have yet to post the betaL > exams on their beta page. The 436 and 450 beta exams are live at Prometric; > Test Centers as indicated on the Testing Information page J > (http://www.compaq.com/training/2023.html), which also provides links to the>J > Exam Preparation Guides. See bottom of table on Testing Information page >l? > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in messagee. > news:7en_7.369$5Y4.10466@news.cpqcorp.net... > > Newsgroup, > >nE > > I just received this, you will have to go to the web site for theeI > > attachments that are mentioned in this email.  I have no idea why itso > double< > > spaced again.  This will be on web sites later this week > >  > > Suee > >aB > > ______________________________________________________________ > > * > > To: OpenVMS Professionals and Managers > >h; > > From: Compaq Accredited Professional Program - HPS Teamt > >r3 > > Re: Recruitment of OpenVMS Beta Exam Candidatese > >> > > Important: > >e@ > > Please act on this request immediately to ensure April, 2002 availability > of > > live exams! L > > Please distribute this announcement to OpenVMS professionals everywhere. > >i > > Greetings, > >wI > > The Compaq High Performance Server group (HPS) has launched betas forh twoiH > > new Compaq Accredited Professional exams that support the OpenVMS V7	 > Systems K > > Engineer and AlphaServer/OpenVMS V7 ASE certification designations. The  > > exams are: > >rJ > > OpenVMS V7 Advanced Administration, Performance, and Support (011-450) > >>/ > > OpenVMS V7 Network Administration (011-436)2 > >4C > > The beta exams are available, now, at Prometric Testing Centersi
 worldwide.J > > The final "live" exams will be available at CAT Global Test Centers in > EMEA, @ > > as well as Prometric, following completion of the beta test. > >>7 > > Take a free beta exam. win an iPAQ color pocket PC!g > > H > > All individuals who complete (pass or fail) one or both of the above betaK > > exams before February 15, 2002 will qualify to win an iPAQ color pocket, PCI > > (model H3650). At the close of the beta period for each exam, the HPStJ > > certification program manager will randomly draw one name from each of theoF > > two beta test groups and award the lucky participants an iPAQ (see lottery1H > > terms and conditions below). So take the test(s) for free and take a > chanceK > > at winning an iPAQ. If you do not pass, then you will receive a voucher  toJ > > take the live exam for free. EMEA candidates will receive a CAT Global> > > voucher. All other candidates receive a Prometric voucher. > >  > > Time frame > >hK > > The beta exams are available now and will run to approximately February  > 15,CL > > 2002. The target end date, which may change based on enrollment figures,B > > marks the end of the data collection period for the beta exam.
 CandidatesK > > may continue to take the exam beyond the end date, since beta exams areo > not]L > > retired until the live exams are available. We're expecting the exams to > go > > live in April 2002.r > >fB > > Register now for one or both of the betas, or identify several@ > > colleagues/employees in your organization who are willing to participate.H > > Please encourage candidates to take the exam before February 15. The onlyJ > > individuals who will qualify for the iPAQ lotteries are those who take ther+ > > exam(s) on or before February 15, 2002.e > > # > > Who should take the beta exams?S > >OJ > > The beta exams are intended for OpenVMS Systems Administrators, SystemK > > Engineers, Service Engineers, and Pre-Sales Technical Support EngineerseI > > within Compaq, Compaq partner, and Compaq customer organizations. TheyK > > expertise and experience levels of beta candidates may vary, from thosee > whoHB > > have advanced OpenVMS system skills to those who have basic orH > > intermediate-level skills. See the Exam Preparation Guides (EPGs) atJ > > http://www.compaq.com/certification/na/betaexam.html for a description of" > > the competencies being tested. > >rL > > OpenVMS professionals within Compaq, Compaq partner, and Compaq customerK > > organizations should be recruited, as well as OpenVMS instructors. Thisr > mixeI > > of candidates is critical to evaluate the exam questions and define aN > > passing score. > > I > > Because a range of expertise is required for the beta, it is expected% thatH > > some candidates will not pass. However, candidates who take the beta willG > > become familiar with the areas where they are skilled and the areas  where  > > they need development. > >[' > > How to prepare for the beta exam(s)+ > > L > > Before you register and take an exam, review the content of the exam and > the]J > > applicable training or documentation. This information is available in theoJ > > Exam Preparation Guide for each exam. The beta exams are "closed book". > > exams. No reference materials are allowed. > >  > > Exam Preparation Guides  > >tE > > The beta Exam Preparation Guides (EPGs) are attached and are also' locatedo > atK > > http://www.compaq.com/certification/na/betaexam.html. It's important to ) > > review the EPG before taking an exam.i > >  > > What is a beta exam? > >eF > > A beta exam allows us to test the integrity of questions before we develop  > a'I > > final exam. After candidates take a beta exam, we analyze the results  and D > > the candidates' comments to select the best questions, construct > equivalent5 > > forms of the exam, and establish a passing score.i > >t' > > Benefits to candidates and managersy > > % > > There is no cost for a beta exam!  > >eJ > > Candidates who do not pass a beta exam have a better chance of passing the L > > live exam, since they see all the questions in the exam pool. During theD > > live exam, candidates see only selected questions from the pool. > ><L > > Candidates become familiar with the areas where they are skilled and the > > areas where they need work.5 > >>L > > A candidate who does not pass a beta exam can retake the live exam at no > > additional cost. > > I > > The passing score for an exam is defined several weeks after the beta L > > concludes. Candidates who pass a beta exam are recorded as having passed > theCF > > live exam and do not have to take it. (The test center may provideK > > candidates with a record of their beta results, which the certificationN? > > program office may require, so retain any record provided.)1 > >H > > Time commitmentV > >3J > > The exam (and administration time) can take up to 4 hours depending on the1F > > number of questions being tested. Travel time to and from the test center > is > > additional.  > >  > > Registering< > > J > > To register for the exam, call the Prometric Testing Center nearest to you>E > > and request the Compaq 450 and/or 436 exam (see titles above), or! register) > > online at http://2test.com/index.jsp.  > > J > > Please register as soon as possible. Since beta exams tend to be long,J > > Prometric may have difficulty scheduling blocks of time for individualD > > candidates. You will need the following information to register: > >s* > > Compaq badge number (Compaq employees) > >hH > > Social Security Number (If you do not have a Social Security Number, then > anI > > ID number will be assigned. (Note: You must use this same number whenf& > > registering for all future exams.) > >$ > > Company Name > >i > > Tutorial > >sK > > Before you begin an exam, you can take a tutorial at the test center topK > > familiarize yourself with the details of taking online Prometric exams.n IfK > > you have not taken an online Prometric exam, you are encouraged to take. > thisG > > tutorial. It will help you take the exam more efficiently. Time for  takingL > > the tutorial (approximately 10 to 15 minutes) is not counted against the# > > time you have to take the exam.  > >-+ > > Comments on the exam / Candidate survey- > >pJ > > After you complete the exam, you can make comments on questions: theirC > > accuracy, appropriateness to audience, etc. You also see surveyI	 questionsOL > > before the exam. The survey is designed to help the exam team define theJ > > final exam forms for the target audiences, so please answer the surveyK > > questions accurately. Taking the survey does not count against the timeh > you. > > have to take the exam. > >i. > > iPAQ color PC lottery terms and conditions > >t@ > > The following terms and conditions have been established for > administration > > of the iPAQ lotteries. > >r7 > > To qualify for the iPAQ lottery, beta participants:t > >.E > > Must have gained experience selling, supporting, or using OpenVMS, systems  > asI > > a system administrator, systems engineer, service engineer, pre-salesi= > > technical support engineer, instructor, student, or other* OpenVMS-related 	 > > role.  > > D > > Must possess at least basic OpenVMS system skills and knowledge. > >BK > > Must complete the 450 and/or 436 beta exam(s) on or before February 15,  > 2002+ > > at an authorized Prometric Test Center., > >yC > > Must attempt to answer all questions presented during the exam.r > >fI > > Must complete the candidate survey that is presented before the exam.  > > @ > > Must provide appropriate contact information during the exam registration > > process. > > K > > Candidates can take one or both beta exams, but cannot take either exam[ > more% > > than once within the beta period.n > >aF > > Candidates who take both betas are eligible to participate in both- > > lotteries, but cannot win more than once.  > > F > > Prizes are iPAQ color pocket PCs (model H3650). If unavailable, anL > > equivalent value prize will be substituted. No cash substitution will be > > offered. > > J > > If at least 50 participants have not taken a beta exam by February 15, > 2002, J > > the lottery deadline for the exam may be extended at the discretion of the F > > program manager. The two lottery winners will be notified by phone and/or > byH > > mail within 5 business days following each lottery, which will occur whenG > > Prometric makes the beta participant names available (probably lateuJ > > February). Winners have 10 business days from the date of notification toH > > claim their prize, otherwise they will forfeit their prize and a new nameF > > will be selected. There is no implied obligation to notify lottery losers.: > >!C > > Compaq is not responsible for beta participant names omitted byp
 Prometric,K > > or related Prometric errors/omissions which may eliminate a participant  > from > > a lottery. > > H > > Compaq is not responsible if Prometric cannot schedule test time forF > > individual candidates within the beta period, so candidates should
 > register
 > > early. > >yC > > Winners are responsible for any applicable country or local taxr > obligations. > >aJ > > These terms and conditions may be amended or elaborated by the programE > > manager to comply with additional corporate requirements or local  > > regulations. > > L > > Please distribute this announcement to OpenVMS professionals everywhere. > >n@ > > Thank you in advance for your cooperation and participation. > > 5 > > Compaq Accredited Professional Program - HPS Team  > >o > >f > >  >t >i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:18:38 -0500 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>rC Subject: RE: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMS.T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4016CE883@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   re: What is an Engineer?  D Apologies for a little humour .. hopefully the lawyers will not come	 after me.   ; A golden "oldie" for all those aspiring to be Engingears ..e   :-) :-)p  E A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He  reduced altitudeu' and spotted a man on the ground  below. & He descended a bit more and   shouted,F "Excuse me, can  you help me?  I promised a friend I would meet him an) hour  ago,  but I don't know where I am."%G "You are in a hot air balloon hovering  approximately 30 feet above the!F ground.  You are between 40 and 41  degrees north latitude and betweenF 59 and  60 degrees west longitude."  Replied the man below.  "You must7 be an engineer or an accountant," said  the balloonist.0C "You're right," replied the man on the ground, "How did  you know?"4G "Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technicallyFE correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and theCF fact is I am still lost.  Frankly, you've not been much help  so far."  5 "You must be in Management." responded the man below.xE "I  am," replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?" "Well," said<G the  man on the ground, "you don't know where you are or where  you are E going. You have risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot D air. You  made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and youF expect people beneath  you to solve your problems. The fact is you areA in exactly the same position you  were in before we met, but now,> somehow, it's my  fault."    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant! Compaq Canada Corp." Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660f Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----( From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com] Sent: January 21, 2002 3:54 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComeC Subject: Re: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMS      Sue,  ? Please pass this along to your legal dept. so they can make the" appropriate > changes to the course descriptions and designations in Canada.  B They can contact the following professional licencing body for the rules: Professional Engineers Ontario 25 Sheppard Avenue West" Toronto, Ontario Canada   M2N 6S6 Phone: (416) 224-1100i  2 Save yourselves the lawyers bills and court costs.    ? In the US, the term 'Engineer' can be, and is used, in a rather-D fast-'n'-loose way. Generally accepted to be somebody who designs or creates D something in traditional engineering disciplines, or in the field ofC software development, someone who deals with numerical methods [not-G accounting :-) ] in the financial services field, or the guy who drives, thea train.  @ However, only the person who has P.E. after their name is a true	 engineer.c    G The term 'Engineer' is a legally protected concept/title in Canada. Ones hasoB to be a graduate of an accredited engineering school in one of the accepted> disciplines (mechanical, civil, aerospace, mining, geological,? metallurgical, civil, industrial, electrical, etc...), and theni certified by theeD appropriate licencing body after having had suitable work experienceF post-graduation.   P.Eng is the official designation. This is codified in law.  F The Canadian licensing bodies regularly slap Microsoft, Cisco, Compaq,= and anyone else who tries to use the term 'engineer' in theird designations or advertising.c    E BTW, in Canada the terms MCSE, CNE, etc... may not be expanded - theyf aretC just meaningless collections of letters, even if the holder of saido0 designation IS a licenced Professional Engineer.    - Your mileage in other jurisdictions may vary.         = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message', news:lwJ%7.593$5Y4.15922@news.cpqcorp.net...E > North America folks who maintain the web pages have yet to post theo betaB > exams on their beta page. The 436 and 450 beta exams are live at	 Prometrici; > Test Centers as indicated on the Testing Information pageaG > (http://www.compaq.com/training/2023.html), which also provides linksu to therE > Exam Preparation Guides. See bottom of table on Testing Informations page >i? > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in messageo. > news:7en_7.369$5Y4.10466@news.cpqcorp.net... > > Newsgroup, > >nE > > I just received this, you will have to go to the web site for therE > > attachments that are mentioned in this email.  I have no idea whyc itst > double< > > spaced again.  This will be on web sites later this week > >s > > Sueg > >.B > > ______________________________________________________________ > >s* > > To: OpenVMS Professionals and Managers > >>; > > From: Compaq Accredited Professional Program - HPS Teamc > >k3 > > Re: Recruitment of OpenVMS Beta Exam Candidatesa > >x > > Important: > >e@ > > Please act on this request immediately to ensure April, 2002 availability > of > > live exams!i@ > > Please distribute this announcement to OpenVMS professionals everywhere.k > >  > > Greetings, > >iE > > The Compaq High Performance Server group (HPS) has launched betasS fors twosH > > new Compaq Accredited Professional exams that support the OpenVMS V7	 > Systems.G > > Engineer and AlphaServer/OpenVMS V7 ASE certification designations.g Thet > > exams are: > > @ > > OpenVMS V7 Advanced Administration, Performance, and Support	 (011-450)  > >e/ > > OpenVMS V7 Network Administration (011-436)t > >iC > > The beta exams are available, now, at Prometric Testing Centers_
 worldwide.G > > The final "live" exams will be available at CAT Global Test Centers  in > EMEA,q@ > > as well as Prometric, following completion of the beta test. > > 7 > > Take a free beta exam. win an iPAQ color pocket PC!  > > H > > All individuals who complete (pass or fail) one or both of the above betaD > > exams before February 15, 2002 will qualify to win an iPAQ color pocket PCE > > (model H3650). At the close of the beta period for each exam, ther HPS G > > certification program manager will randomly draw one name from eache of theiF > > two beta test groups and award the lucky participants an iPAQ (see lotteryOH > > terms and conditions below). So take the test(s) for free and take a > chanceC > > at winning an iPAQ. If you do not pass, then you will receive a  voucher  toC > > take the live exam for free. EMEA candidates will receive a CATb Global> > > voucher. All other candidates receive a Prometric voucher. > >s > > Time frame > > B > > The beta exams are available now and will run to approximately February > 15,oC > > 2002. The target end date, which may change based on enrollmentp figures,B > > marks the end of the data collection period for the beta exam.
 CandidatesG > > may continue to take the exam beyond the end date, since beta examsl arec > notCC > > retired until the live exams are available. We're expecting theh exams to > go > > live in April 2002.  > >rB > > Register now for one or both of the betas, or identify several@ > > colleagues/employees in your organization who are willing to participate.H > > Please encourage candidates to take the exam before February 15. The onlyE > > individuals who will qualify for the iPAQ lotteries are those whot take them+ > > exam(s) on or before February 15, 2002.  > >l# > > Who should take the beta exams?e > > C > > The beta exams are intended for OpenVMS Systems Administrators,a SystemA > > Engineers, Service Engineers, and Pre-Sales Technical Support 	 EngineerseE > > within Compaq, Compaq partner, and Compaq customer organizations.n ThetE > > expertise and experience levels of beta candidates may vary, fromn thosea > whoeB > > have advanced OpenVMS system skills to those who have basic orH > > intermediate-level skills. See the Exam Preparation Guides (EPGs) at> > > http://www.compaq.com/certification/na/betaexam.html for a descriptiono of" > > the competencies being tested. > >iC > > OpenVMS professionals within Compaq, Compaq partner, and Compaqu customerF > > organizations should be recruited, as well as OpenVMS instructors. This > mixyG > > of candidates is critical to evaluate the exam questions and definee ab > > passing score. > > @ > > Because a range of expertise is required for the beta, it is expected thatH > > some candidates will not pass. However, candidates who take the beta willG > > become familiar with the areas where they are skilled and the areasC whereu > > they need development. > >x' > > How to prepare for the beta exam(s)d > >sH > > Before you register and take an exam, review the content of the exam ande > thevG > > applicable training or documentation. This information is availables in thetD > > Exam Preparation Guide for each exam. The beta exams are "closed book" . > > exams. No reference materials are allowed. > >n > > Exam Preparation Guidesa > >mE > > The beta Exam Preparation Guides (EPGs) are attached and are also, locateda > atH > > http://www.compaq.com/certification/na/betaexam.html. It's important to) > > review the EPG before taking an exam.c > >  > > What is a beta exam? > >pF > > A beta exam allows us to test the integrity of questions before we developn > asA > > final exam. After candidates take a beta exam, we analyze the  resultsa andwD > > the candidates' comments to select the best questions, construct > equivalent5 > > forms of the exam, and establish a passing score.y > >g' > > Benefits to candidates and managerst > >h% > > There is no cost for a beta exam!n > >rB > > Candidates who do not pass a beta exam have a better chance of passingG thefH > > live exam, since they see all the questions in the exam pool. During thelD > > live exam, candidates see only selected questions from the pool. > > H > > Candidates become familiar with the areas where they are skilled and the/ > > areas where they need work.b > >aF > > A candidate who does not pass a beta exam can retake the live exam at no  > > additional cost. > >eD > > The passing score for an exam is defined several weeks after the betaE > > concludes. Candidates who pass a beta exam are recorded as havingl passed > the F > > live exam and do not have to take it. (The test center may provide= > > candidates with a record of their beta results, which thei
 certificationt? > > program office may require, so retain any record provided.)  > >f > > Time commitmente > > G > > The exam (and administration time) can take up to 4 hours dependingh on theiF > > number of questions being tested. Travel time to and from the test center > is > > additional.n > >l > > Registeringr > >eG > > To register for the exam, call the Prometric Testing Center neareste to youaE > > and request the Compaq 450 and/or 436 exam (see titles above), ors register) > > online at http://2test.com/index.jsp.  > >dD > > Please register as soon as possible. Since beta exams tend to be long,e? > > Prometric may have difficulty scheduling blocks of time form
 individualD > > candidates. You will need the following information to register: > >t* > > Compaq badge number (Compaq employees) > >oH > > Social Security Number (If you do not have a Social Security Number, then > anD > > ID number will be assigned. (Note: You must use this same number when& > > registering for all future exams.) > >  > > Company Name > >1 > > Tutorial > >sH > > Before you begin an exam, you can take a tutorial at the test center toD > > familiarize yourself with the details of taking online Prometric exams. IfF > > you have not taken an online Prometric exam, you are encouraged to take > thisG > > tutorial. It will help you take the exam more efficiently. Time forp takingH > > the tutorial (approximately 10 to 15 minutes) is not counted against the # > > time you have to take the exam.u > >b+ > > Comments on the exam / Candidate survey  > >iD > > After you complete the exam, you can make comments on questions: their C > > accuracy, appropriateness to audience, etc. You also see surveya	 questions H > > before the exam. The survey is designed to help the exam team define thesC > > final exam forms for the target audiences, so please answer the$ surveyF > > questions accurately. Taking the survey does not count against the time > yout > > have to take the exam. > > . > > iPAQ color PC lottery terms and conditions > >e@ > > The following terms and conditions have been established for > administration > > of the iPAQ lotteries. > >o7 > > To qualify for the iPAQ lottery, beta participants:m > > E > > Must have gained experience selling, supporting, or using OpenVMSt systemst > as? > > a system administrator, systems engineer, service engineer,x	 pre-salesa= > > technical support engineer, instructor, student, or other  OpenVMS-relatedi	 > > role.  > >cD > > Must possess at least basic OpenVMS system skills and knowledge. > > G > > Must complete the 450 and/or 436 beta exam(s) on or before Februaryt 15,  > 2002+ > > at an authorized Prometric Test Center.e > >eC > > Must attempt to answer all questions presented during the exam.u > >aC > > Must complete the candidate survey that is presented before thel exam.o > > @ > > Must provide appropriate contact information during the exam registration > > process. > >iF > > Candidates can take one or both beta exams, but cannot take either exam > more% > > than once within the beta period.a > >eF > > Candidates who take both betas are eligible to participate in both- > > lotteries, but cannot win more than once.  > >eF > > Prizes are iPAQ color pocket PCs (model H3650). If unavailable, anD > > equivalent value prize will be substituted. No cash substitution will ben > > offered. > >nF > > If at least 50 participants have not taken a beta exam by February 15,e > 2002,uG > > the lottery deadline for the exam may be extended at the discretion  of themF > > program manager. The two lottery winners will be notified by phone and/or > byH > > mail within 5 business days following each lottery, which will occur whenG > > Prometric makes the beta participant names available (probably late = > > February). Winners have 10 business days from the date oft notification toH > > claim their prize, otherwise they will forfeit their prize and a new nameF > > will be selected. There is no implied obligation to notify lottery losers.t > >nC > > Compaq is not responsible for beta participant names omitted bya
 Prometric,? > > or related Prometric errors/omissions which may eliminate au participant  > from > > a lottery. > > H > > Compaq is not responsible if Prometric cannot schedule test time forF > > individual candidates within the beta period, so candidates should
 > register
 > > early. > >eC > > Winners are responsible for any applicable country or local tax  > obligations. > >eB > > These terms and conditions may be amended or elaborated by the programhE > > manager to comply with additional corporate requirements or locale > > regulations. > >s@ > > Please distribute this announcement to OpenVMS professionals everywhere.f > >t@ > > Thank you in advance for your cooperation and participation. > > 5 > > Compaq Accredited Professional Program - HPS Teamq > >o > >p > >l >o >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:54:09 -0500r% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>c! Subject: Re: A position statement , Message-ID: <3C4C63D0.79471A45@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:E > mmmm.. perhaps you are right. Moving from a 64bit architecture to ahJ > 32bit architecture as your server future is a great idea in this day and > age.  N Most businessess don't really care about 32 bit or 64 bit. They care about theN available applications. (Where 64 bit really starts to come into play are very large systems).s  D > Especially one with no security issues (not!). Yep, makes a lot of > sense.  K This is not too great an argument since ST400 bypassed much of VMS securitytN and provided its own. And I would suspect that the next generation application! on NT and Unix will do the same. -  D > Course, perhaps financial IT architecture folks do not worry about' > security and multi-site availability?m  M Yep they do. That is why folks whith ST400 and disaster recovery plans on VMS-H will stay with that solution until SWIFT pulls the plug on that network.M (ST400 is incompatible with the next version of the SWIFT network). Customerse have no choice but to migrate.  H > Good example - with more and more Apps vendors moving to J2EE and JavaG > technologies (like SAP), porting becomes much less of an issue. It isdJ > more a certification effort. The rapid adoption of J2EE was not there 18
 > months ago.s  C Certification is a big item for swift. You're not talking about ATM L transactions here, you are talking about transactions in the millions. BanksK need garantees that money won't get lost, because weM're talking very large  amounts of money.b  F When I started to support such a system, the operators (mostly for IBMJ mainframes) knew very little about the vaxes and had no clue of what SWIFTJ did. It just didn't sound very impressive for so few transactions per day.  N But one night, I stayed with them and actually showed them (with approval fromM the user/management) some of the transactions that were going though. The job,J that they ran each night was pulling data from the IBM mainframe and thoseN transactions contained a daily summary of transactions with bank-B, as well asL the bank balance Bank-B had at Bank-A. After the operators saw the number ofL zeros in those numbers, they instantly gained a lot of respect for that vax.M The next day, I got feedback from the operatiosn manager on how the operatorspI had been telling him how important the vax was because it was processingst7 transactions, some of which were hundred million bucks.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:41:40 -0500p% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> ! Subject: Re: A position statement-, Message-ID: <3C4C60E4.1A8C25BB@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote:-E > Because that's what Compaq told them behind closed doors. You don't5F > really think the banks were told "because we made a minor accountingF > error in project fund allocation" if they asked why they had to move > from VMS do you?  M In all fairness, banks started to tell me VMS was dead back in 1996. And if InS remember correctly, SWIFT decided to drop VMS some time before the Compaq takeover.u  N During the short VMS renaissance, I did email the person in charge of SWIFT atM Compaq and told him that since the NT product was somewhat delayed in gettingnI the same functionality as ST400, and since Compaq (at the time) had shownaM signs of revival in VMS, that perhaps Compaq should go to SWIFT and tell them N that Compaq is serious about VMS, unlike its predecessor (Digital) and that itH would very much want to see SWIFT's next generation products run on VMS.  L His response was that Compaq would do what it could to ensure that ST400 wasL supported as long as it is necessary for all cutsomers to migrate, hopefully to Compaq's NT solutions.   L At the time, I though the excuse was very lame, but now that I know that theM "renaissance" was just a temporary blip, I can understand why Compaq wouldn'ti be interested in pursuing this.o  H SWIFT is truly a mission critical system for banks because internationalH transactions are a big profit maker, so the banks really do need to haveS disaster recovery plans for the SWIFT systems. And this is where VMS really shines.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:20:03 +0100,1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> ! Subject: Re: A position statement 5 Message-ID: <3C4C69E3.48727391@swissonline.delete.ch>E   Bill,m  / I am not about to play your silly little games.c  E You try to claim that you have credible figures when in fact pepperednE throughout your response we see "at most something like", "that could F exclude", "if we assume", "probably", "quarterly statement suggested", "Even if", "almost certainly".  F Regardless of whether these assumptions may be accurate or inaccurate,H the fact remains that you really don't know what figures Compaq have and. are using in regard to anything you have said.  G I don't know either.  And to argue about two sets of figures of unknownn; accuracy would be like a pissing contest between small boysP    A You are purporting to be a guru on the entire matter, knowing theiF factors far better than Compaq.  The problem is that there are so many factors that you - and I  -  do not know.  - You can make your guesses and estimates but -o  > 1.  you don't know the Compaq's figures for the costs of AlphaF 2.  you don't know Compaq's estimated savings by the transfer of AlphaH 3.  you don't know the details of any current or future concessions that Compaq got from Intel_G 4.  you don't know Compaq's estimated income from redirecting the moneyf& that would otherwise be spent on AlphaD 5.  you don't know how Compaq plans to develop its services strategy, 6.  you don't know Compaq's product strategy= 7.  you don't know Compaq's estimated sales potential for VMSeF 8.  you don't know Compaq's plans if the merger goes ahead or if it is	 cancelledtD 9.  you don't know the number or nature of VMS sales in the last few5 years and what deductions Compaq are making from thisrA 10. you don't know Compaq's perception of the requirements of itsi	 customersi  E In short you - and all the rest of us here (except maybe a few CompaqaD folk) - are completely in the dark in regards to the BUSINESS ISSUES  that drive a decision like this.  D You also certainly don't recognize the good business sense in CompaqC smoothing the transition from Alpha to Intel.  Keeping customers isa@ always a priority when a situation like this arises and there isB substantial goodwill of a company willing to absorb some costs andG minimize the impact on the customers.  In many ways I am surprised that.C Compaq had the gumption to actually do it.  (Perhaps the VMS people 7 slipped it in without prior approval from those above.)b    E You - and others - can rant and rave all you like about Alpha being awG differentiator but a differentiator that makes little difference is not = a differentiator.  VMS is VMS whatever platform it is on, anda( reliability is its forte, not its speed.    G The other comment that needs to be made is that I see you have not lost 6 your ability for selective distortion of others posts.  G For example, I stated " Events of Sep 11 could not be foreseen but theydC are now reflected in demand for systems with high security and high H availability emphasize, as stated in the Q4 financials." but you repliedG " I must have missed the statement in the Q4 financials that VMS demand F was SIGNIFICANTLY up."  I certainly didn't say significantly; I simplyF commented on a statement in the financials document and you elected to add the word "significantly".a    E Now the one area that I will agree with you, JF and Alan (and others) E about is that we all believe that Compaq's current marketing strategy = for VMS is far too restrictive and that this strategy is botheG constraining VMS and produces less than optimal profits for Compaq.  WeeH all see potential VMS sales - situations where VMS is perfectly suited -G being ignored by Compaq.  We also often see VMS sites planning to move,lA or actually moving, away from VMS and we hear of reasons directly - related to Compaq's handling of the platform.i  G These are the situation that we need to address.  And it shouldn't take H emails from us to senior VMS people so they can try to "plug the leaks";< in many cases any action from Compaq is too little too late.  H It is crazy but we seem to have to get Compaq to be more on the ball; weG actually have to try to tell them where (and how) to make better incomeo& than they make from their low-end PCs.  H That is what we have to address - the marketing.  As I said above VMS isB still VMS regardless of the processor.  Poor marketing is far more( destructive than any change of platform.     John McLean    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:30:43 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> ! Subject: Re: A position statementh, Message-ID: <3C4C7A6C.68601226@videotron.ca>   John McLean wrote:I > These are the situation that we need to address.  And it shouldn't takecJ > emails from us to senior VMS people so they can try to "plug the leaks";> > in many cases any action from Compaq is too little too late. > J > It is crazy but we seem to have to get Compaq to be more on the ball; weI > actually have to try to tell them where (and how) to make better incomee( > than they make from their low-end PCs.  M Historically, whenever the complaints about "Digital is killing VMS" got loudsN enough, the company would tell customers to be patient because something greatH was in the works, and something would come out that was positive, givingJ customers plenty of hopes. But soon after, things would get back to normal with VMS purposefully omitted.  K There is a reason why Compaq is handling VMS the way it is handling it. And L while complaints from you or me may force Compaq to provide customers with aM temporary pacifier to keep us quiet, it does not change the underlying reasonaI why Compaq doesn't want to realise VMS's full potential (same for Alpha).a  J Until we know the real reasons why Compaq refuses to push VMS, there isn'tN much we can do about it. The one thing we can do about it is simply follow theL advise of Compaq and plan to grow our IT onto other platforms. All Compaq isN interested in is keeping a certain number of customers on VMS because it knows2 that they will leave Compaq if/when they drop VMS.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:39:04 GMTw# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t! Subject: Re: A position statementi. Message-ID: <s7_28.796$Okf.334@news2.bloor.is>  6 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1BB7@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. ..  H > Good example - with more and more Apps vendors moving to J2EE and JavaG > technologies (like SAP), porting becomes much less of an issue. It isxJ > more a certification effort. The rapid adoption of J2EE was not there 18
 > months ago.l  J It wasn't much of issue when programs were written in Cobol, Fortran, APL,L or C/C++ either, and especially if the db was Oracle or Sybase...if the apps were well written.  J The competent guys I know who have worked on OpenVMS, who came from a unixK background, bitched about VMS for about the first 3-4 weeks and then really H began to like it. Sure there are differences between the way someone whoF started using unix before VMS vs. somebody who was programming for VMSL before unix would approach some problems. But by-and-large, good programmersK can deal with either o/s after a short learning curve, and porting is not asI horrendous taks...a bit more effort to port to VMS from unix that betweenx unix variants (usually).  L The big question is will OpenVMS be a retired product in the next 18 months?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:44:56 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>! Subject: Re: A position statement > Message-ID: <c5%28.1615$fg.106405@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  > "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C4C69E3.48727391@swissonline.delete.ch...e > Bill,  >n1 > I am not about to play your silly little games.s  E Gee, that should have made for a much shorter response, shouldn't it?   I If you consider using the best information available to understand what'saI going on a 'silly little game', then I guess I'm guilty.  But I certainly K don't apologize for doing so, nor do I find your own inclination to counteriL with only your own completely unsubstantiated opinions nearly as convincing.   >yG > You try to claim that you have credible figures when in fact pepperedp: > throughout your response we see "at most something like"  G Using Compaq's own figures to establish a limit that clearly falls welliJ below your own asserted figure is hardly the same kind of hot air you seemG inclined to spout.  Perhaps you need a remedial course in arithmetic to  understand the difference.  
 , "that coulde
 > exclude"  L IIRC, that was in response to your 'belief' that storage profit was includedJ in VMS's reported profit.  I at least had the humility to admit that I hadK no definite information and that it could go either way, whereas you statedtJ your 'belief' as if it had some real basis.  So I repeat:  would you share your source for this?o  > , "if we assume", "probably", "quarterly statement suggested",  > "Even if", "almost certainly".  I Again, I'm rather careful to differentiate what I *know* from what I haverG strong reason to suspect and from what is simply suggested but far frommJ proven.  I don't think too many people would consider this a fault, unlessH they wished me to take more forceful but less defensible positions in an< attempt to sway people with rhetoric rather than with logic.   >lH > Regardless of whether these assumptions may be accurate or inaccurate,J > the fact remains that you really don't know what figures Compaq have and0 > are using in regard to anything you have said.  H But I *do* know what figures Compaq has itself stated, and those are theI figures I have used.  If they lied, they might be well-advised to rectifye& the situation they themselves created.   >aI > I don't know either.  And to argue about two sets of figures of unknownu= > accuracy would be like a pissing contest between small boyst  E The accuracy is the responsibility of Compaq, since they provided theiK figures.  I don't find it unreasonable to assume that they are sufficientlyz( accurate to be used to draw conclusions.  J You, OTOH, don't seem interested in providing any information at all, justK in disputing mine because you choose to consider it insufficiently accurateaL (though even there a debate on the *quantitative* degree of accuracy and itsH effect on my conclusions would be the appropriate response - at least ifD you're interested in an actual debate rather than in simple FUD as a
 rebuttal).   >  >uC > You are purporting to be a guru on the entire matter, knowing thet! > factors far better than Compaq.s  L Gee, another statement (this time my own) that I seem to have missed.  CouldH you cite where I have claimed to be a guru, rather than simply presentedJ information and indicated how conclusions can be reasonably drawn from it?  '   The problem is that there are so many  > factors that you - and I  -l > do not know.  J No, the problem appears to be that there are a *great* many factors that II have taken the time to investigate far more thoroughly than you have, andoE that you appear to feel there's no need to develop similarly detailed J acquaintance with them before presuming to contradict the conclusions they lead to.  I Whether you are incapable of understanding such details or are simply tooaL intellectually lazy to bother with them is not my concern.  But don't expect the result to command respect.   > / > You can make your guesses and estimates but -o >o@ > 1.  you don't know the Compaq's figures for the costs of Alpha  : But I do know what Marcello and Winkler stated them to be.  H > 2.  you don't know Compaq's estimated savings by the transfer of Alpha  F But it's hardly unreasonable to expect them to be lower than the costsI stated above, given that the EV7 contributions to these costs haven't yetF expired.  J > 3.  you don't know the details of any current or future concessions that > Compaq got from Intel   F But we haven't seen them crop up in the Q3 and Q4 financials (with theC possible exception of about $200 million in Q4 that nobody seems to E understand yet), so again we can establish some current upper limits.e  I > 4.  you don't know Compaq's estimated income from redirecting the money6( > that would otherwise be spent on Alpha  K But, as I explained (did you bother to understand it?), that doesn't matter < if the money would better have been obtained in the markets.  F > 5.  you don't know how Compaq plans to develop its services strategy  L But we do know that in the 3.5 years since Compaq acquired DEC - purportedlyL largely to obtain its service organization - Compaq has failed to capitalizeJ on that asset in any significant manner, so its competence to do so in the" future is at least highly suspect.  . > 6.  you don't know Compaq's product strategy  < But we do know - all too well - the external evidence of it.  ? > 7.  you don't know Compaq's estimated sales potential for VMSb  K Who cares?  What's at issue is the *actual* potential, not what pipe-dreamsEF or political spin may be floating around the upper reaches of Houston.  H > 8.  you don't know Compaq's plans if the merger goes ahead or if it is > cancelled   K Compaq's plans if the merger goes ahead don't matter:  HP's plans do.  And,uL again, we know what Carly and other HP honchos have said about consolidating3 around Windows, Unix, and Linux on Intel platforms.a  F > 9.  you don't know the number or nature of VMS sales in the last few7 > years and what deductions Compaq are making from thisr  J The main deductions Compaq has made over the past few years have been fromL its bottom line, so their ability to draw useful deductions in other matters is to say the least suspect.  C > 10. you don't know Compaq's perception of the requirements of itst > customersn  J Again, who cares?  What matter are the *actual* customer requirements, andJ there's certainly been sufficient outcry since the Alphacide to infer thatK an Itanic-only future does not match at least many of them as well as AlphaA did.   >eG > In short you - and all the rest of us here (except maybe a few Compaq F > folk) - are completely in the dark in regards to the BUSINESS ISSUES" > that drive a decision like this.  H You appear to feel that any state short of omniscience constitutes beingK 'completely in the dark'.  Most people are capable of seeing wide ranges of-I shades of grey and making decisions based on them (since true omnisciencef, is, at least in my experience, rather rare).   >mF > You also certainly don't recognize the good business sense in Compaq/ > smoothing the transition from Alpha to Intel.l  F Is it really 'good business sense' to apply bandages after having shotG yourself in both feet?  I suppose *not* applying bandages would be evenhL worse, but I'd reserve the characterization 'good' for a company that didn't  wound itself in the first place.     Keeping customers is5 > always a priority when a situation like this arisesa  I This situation didn't 'arise', Compaq created it.  Stupidly.  Even if onehL believes that some customers really would prefer to run VMS on Itanic and/orF that Itanic really will eventually become an unchallengeable standard,I Compaq would have been far better off to maintain Alpha development until K such time as Itanic's future was far more assured:  Alpha development was ae+ real bargain compared with the alternative.   
  and there is'D > substantial goodwill of a company willing to absorb some costs and' > minimize the impact on the customers.4  I There is considerably more goodwill when the company does not subject itsp, customers to such impact in the first place.  "   In many ways I am surprised thatE > Compaq had the gumption to actually do it.  (Perhaps the VMS people,9 > slipped it in without prior approval from those above.)r  K Self-preservation is a strong incentive, though Compaq still clearly didn'trG see the need until market pressure made it impossible to ignore - sincedG there has been significant movement on this front *since* the June 25the
 announcement.n   >  >-G > You - and others - can rant and rave all you like about Alpha being arI > differentiator but a differentiator that makes little difference is nott? > a differentiator.  VMS is VMS whatever platform it is on, and * > reliability is its forte, not its speed.  F Ever heard of cost-effectiveness?  Or price/performance?  If an ItanicF platform costs significantly more than an Alpha (or POWER) platform toL handle the same load (a situation likely to persist at least until 2006, andD which would quite likely have persisted forever had Compaq chosen toL continue Alpha development rather than donate those resources to Intel), theL people who make purchasing decisions notice (and there's ample evidence thatL they *don't* usually notice the vaunted advantages that VMS may provide, andC plenty of precedent from Compaq to suspect that this ignorance willy
 continue).   >u >rI > The other comment that needs to be made is that I see you have not losta8 > your ability for selective distortion of others posts. >tI > For example, I stated " Events of Sep 11 could not be foreseen but theyuE > are now reflected in demand for systems with high security and high J > availability emphasize, as stated in the Q4 financials." but you repliedI > " I must have missed the statement in the Q4 financials that VMS demandqH > was SIGNIFICANTLY up."  I certainly didn't say significantly; I simplyH > commented on a statement in the financials document and you elected to > add the word "significantly".s  7 Let's just examine exactly who is distorting what here:a  J You conveniently omitted the continuation of your own statement, which wasB what I responded to (and of course *did* include in my own quote):  L "Had this demand for VMS appeared early this year, the decision on Alpha may have been otherwise."   K The clear antecedent of "this demand for VMS" was (in the part you chose tou@ reproduce above) "demand for systems with high security and high> availability emphasize [sic], as stated in the Q4 financials".  J My points were, and are  a) that 'this demand for VMS' didn't exist at allL (i.e., you didn't understand that what you read referred to NonStop systems,I not Alphas) and  b) that your suggestion that said (imaginary) demand foriH VMS might have been sufficient to change the Alpha decision (a change in@ sales that I suspect most people would consider merited the term1 'significant' which I used) was therefore absurd.a  I So the question appears to be whether you're just an idiot for making thepJ accusation above or an active sleaze attempting to discredit someone whose6 explanations you refuse to engage at the detail level.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:07:46 +0100t1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>e! Subject: Re: A position statemente5 Message-ID: <3C4D01B2.9DB5E43D@swissonline.delete.ch>    Bill Todd wrote: > 	 .. (snip)i  $ Bill, you are becoming very tedious.  B You seem to be assuming that you have the same information as thatD Compaq used for its BUSINESS DECISION and whether you have or not isC somewhat irrelevant because it is their company and their decision.b  @ I might be wrong.  Michael Capellas may have phoned you and said? something like "Mr Todd, we know you are not part of the CompaqsE management team, and you are not even an employee who is directly anddG significantly impacted, but come down to Houston and we will give you anG big presentation to explain every detail of our business decision.  YouaD can talk to our accountants, technical people, business strategists,G marketing people.  You can see all our estimates of costs, revenues andd profits for the next 10 years."t  H Has that happened ?  I suspect not.  And as a consequence your arguments have little or no validity.   E If you feel you have an issue with the management of Compaq then take F the problem to the next stockholders' meeting and ask questions there.  D Your repetitious cries are sounding more and more like a child whose% favourite toy has been taken fom him.i     John McLeani   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 03:16:42 GMTi1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>z! Subject: Re: Asking  your opinion ' Message-ID: <3C4CDAA5.A73BDD03@fsi.net>    "David L. Cathey" wrote: > b > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3C48E2CD.55A2C612@fsi.net>...J > > Well, I was going to suggest simply pulling down the entire GNU on VMS@ > > collection from http://vms.gnu.org/ , but that seems to haveI > > disappeared. So, instead just take your favorite Linux or *BSD distro,I > > and go to town on the sources for just about everything - the commandc > > programs, the shells, etc. > >-H > > If that's not already too much, I believe the Qt libraries have beenI > > ported to VMS, in which case KDE may be possible to port. After that, J > > the Koffice applications would round out the otherwise fairly complete > > KDE suite. > >pJ > > I understand Tru64 was leaning toward Gnome before its (Tru64s) future# > > came into serious doubt. *SIGH*u > M >         GNOME on OpenVMS is possible, too.  OpenVMS Engineering has alreadyaI > completed the GTK+ port, which I've successfully used.  I have a commonDL > source code for a GUI that runs under OpenVMS, Linux/Unix, and Windows2000 > using the GTK+ toolkit.g  C Would maybe know if Koffice could be ported assuming the associatede% KDElib stuff is brought over as well?t   -- f David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 03:17:17 GMTt1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i! Subject: Re: Asking  your opiniona' Message-ID: <3C4CDAC9.886A5DD0@fsi.net>V   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > V > In article <3c4c131e$1@pull.gecm.com>, "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> writes: >  > > Security/DTi > % > I thought I knew what Security was.l >  > What is "DT" ?   Delerium Tremens?g   --   David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 03:37:57 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net><! Subject: Re: Asking  your opinions' Message-ID: <3C4CDF9F.BD4CD141@fsi.net>O   Brad McCusker wrote: > ? > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message0- > news:duX18.202$PZ4.2040@news.cpqcorp.net...i > > It is a presentation@ > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message% > > news:3C479547.75BECD5A@fsi.net...g > > > Sue Skonetski wrote: > > > > [snip]; > > > > Making OpenVMS attractive to Port UNIX Applications  > > >86 > > > Is this a presentation or OpenVMS seeking input? > > >w0 > > > If a presentation, it may have some value. > > >cD > > > If OpenVMS seeking input, will any of our "suggestions" make a > > > difference?u > N > I'm the guy who asked Sue to put the "Making OpenVMS attractive to Port UNIXL > Applications" session on the list.  The plan would be for it to provide asL > much technical content as I could, but, I would also be certain to leave aN > Q&A period a the end becuase feedback is very important to us at this point.  D Understadn, also, that *THE* most important item that would make VMSD attractive as a target platform for ports may be exactly what Compaq does *NOT want to hear.V  * Reference: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  N > Regarding 'will any of our "suggestions" make a difference?', yes they will.H > We're kicking off a lot of work in this area, we want to be sure we do > what's of value.  9 What is of value tends to be rather a subject statement. n  F To us, the "VMS Faithful", what would make VMS attractive as a portingE target would be any facet of such an effort that would expand the VMSE1 job market in all the major metropolitan markets.   E To would-be users, what would make VMS attractive as a porting targetvH would be any facet of such an effort that would expand the VMS stable of
 applications.r  H In both cases - job opportunities and ISV motivation, the most effective? answer may again be exactly what Compaq does *NOT want to hear.   * Reference: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/  H Sorry to have to keep harping on this, but shops will not implement whatD they cannot afford to acquire or maintain, and what they cannot find0 qualified professionals to support and maintain.  G Compaq may be believe in their own marketing model for OpenVMS. That isi their prerogative.  C The perpetual shrinkage of the OpenVMS markets, however, lends morei$ credence to the opposing viewpoints.  B (Warning to anyone considering posting news of OpenVMS growth as aB rebuttal: do *NOT* post claims, post *EVIDENCE* of such, includingD dollar volume increase and the time period during it was observed as@ well as the time period to which it is being compared, at a bare5 minimum. Else, your statements will stand unfounded.)u   -- t David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemsl http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/t   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 00:05:55 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)k! Subject: Re: Asking  your opiniono3 Message-ID: <DcuDHkbfcNEO@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  [ In article <3C4CDF9F.BD4CD141@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:    > E > The perpetual shrinkage of the OpenVMS markets, however, lends more & > credence to the opposing viewpoints. > D > (Warning to anyone considering posting news of OpenVMS growth as aD > rebuttal: do *NOT* post claims, post *EVIDENCE* of such, includingF > dollar volume increase and the time period during it was observed asB > well as the time period to which it is being compared, at a bare7 > minimum. Else, your statements will stand unfounded.)l >   
 	I like that.   ? 	Those that would say (using material supplied to Gartner) that.> 	VMS is as large as it ever was need to provide more evidence?   				Robi   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 01:49:32 -0500i% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> ! Subject: Re: Asking  your opinionb, Message-ID: <3C4D0B6C.7E3A463D@videotron.ca>  F > > (Warning to anyone considering posting news of OpenVMS growth as aF > > rebuttal: do *NOT* post claims, post *EVIDENCE* of such, includingH > > dollar volume increase and the time period during it was observed asD > > well as the time period to which it is being compared, at a bare: > > minimum. Else, your statements will stand unfounded.)\    L Since Compaq does not officially release VMS related sales/profits, I am not; sure it would be possible to know exactly how VMS is doing.   N Secondly, just a "sales" figures is not sufficient to reflect the state of theM VMS marketplace. One needs to know if the sale of a machine is going to a newoD customer, going to an existing customer adding capacity for existingM application, or an existing customer adding a new application, or an existingr2 customer consolidating multiple machines into one.  R One woudl also need to see figures on how many do NOT renew maintenance contracts.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:04:39 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>sB Subject: Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows!5 Message-ID: <3C4C9077.65FE3DBC@swissonline.delete.ch>    Glenn Everhart wrote:g > M > The term "engineer" started as 'one who operates an engine'. This is how it L > happened to be applied to the person who drove the railroad engine. It hasP > come to mean other things in other areas, and has been made a partial monopolyN > by civil and mechanical engineers apparently as a way to add to their incomeJ > by imposing a control on the use of the term. However the original usageK > is entirely appropriate to one who operates an engine where the operationsJ > requires some skill and the laws in question have only very questionable > justification. .  B Does that mean if I operate a search engine then I can be a search
 engineer? ;>)f       John McLeane   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:49:54 -0500e' From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com> B Subject: Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows!' Message-ID: <3C4C9B12.2F07FD88@gce.com>n   John -H Well, why not. I believe the term originally implied some skill in usingB the engine...guy who drove the railroad train needed to be able toC fix things, do complex adjustments, etc., but there is likely to benD more history to the term than I have readily available. In principleA anyone who drove a car could be called an automobile engineer in eE the same way, but the term serves more to confuse than enlighten. Thei& old usages I know of imply some skill.  J Main point to be made wrt the laws is that they  claim to have been passedI to prevent confusion of someone who had a certain skill level (a PE) with J someone who had not. If as in some jurisdictions the term PE was protectedK but the term 'engineer' could be freely used, I'd have no problems with it.?  J I have some sympathy for the view that those with engineering degrees mustO have that they don't care to be confused with any ignoramus who learns a littlenN about some product and wants to use the term. Many of us with advanced degreesP in the sciences (mine's in physics) view the use by many of the term "scientist"P in the same way. Still I prefer a more open attitude to use of language. I notedP that in at least one jurisdiction there were only a few fields, not covering allJ of recognized engineering degrees, which were allowed to take PE exams andL use the term "engineer". That started to smell more like an attempt to limit; access arbitrarily than like an attempt to avoid confusion.d  O I could add that the civil or mechanical engineers these days are likely to usemH for their calculations devices made by non engineers. If someone makes aK mistake in one of the math routines used in a spreadsheet or modelling tooliN a civil engineer uses, that can cause the calculation to be off just as surelyM as if the civil engineer slipped a decimal somewhere. That says nothing aboutoL the relative degree of skill needed for the two jobs, but argues that safetyO of the public depends on a wider cast of characters than is often acknowledged.o  ! So much for gedanken experiments.a     John McLean wrote: >  > Glenn Everhart wrote:c > >tO > > The term "engineer" started as 'one who operates an engine'. This is how itrN > > happened to be applied to the person who drove the railroad engine. It hasR > > come to mean other things in other areas, and has been made a partial monopolyP > > by civil and mechanical engineers apparently as a way to add to their incomeL > > by imposing a control on the use of the term. However the original usageM > > is entirely appropriate to one who operates an engine where the operationsL > > requires some skill and the laws in question have only very questionable > > justification. > D > Does that mean if I operate a search engine then I can be a search > engineer? ;>)i > 
 > John McLeanC   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:57:08 -0500a% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>nB Subject: Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows!, Message-ID: <3C4CAAD4.72DC7923@videotron.ca>   re: Engineer  N Could it be that in the past, the guys in the locomotive had the skills to fixN things on the train when they broke in the middle of nowhere, as well as gaugeI how many cars they could safely pull at what speed ?  (as opposed to just 5 pressing a button to get locomotive to move forwards)i   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:46:36 GMToG From: "bgInc. - You'll go where we want you to go" <tom.otoole@jhu.edu> = Subject: Re: Bill Gates: No Trustworthy Platform exists todayo' Message-ID: <3C4CEF82.A8498DF7@jhu.edu>v   Warren Spencer wrote:    > >-----Original Message-----e > >From: Bill Gatess* > >Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 5:22 PM* > >To: Microsoft and Subsidiaries: All FTE! > >Subject: Trustworthy computingm > >nI > >However, even more important than any of these new capabilities is thenE > >fact that it is designed from the ground up to deliver TrustworthyrJ > >Computing. What I mean by this is that customers will always be able toI > >rely on these systems to be available and to secure their information.iH > >Trustworthy Computing is computing that is as available, reliable and7 > >secure as electricity, water services and telephony.r   heha  > bill gates comes on like this is sutch a 'new concept' that he= is just now gifting to the world. The world takes it as such,i> since the only thing the world knows is bill gates boxes. Gosh bill, you're so geniusy.   yoy.    G > >Today, in the developed world, we do not worry about electricity anddF > >water services being available. With telephony, we rely both on itsC > >availability and its security for conducting highly confidentialoG > >business transactions without worrying that information about who wemI > >call or what we say will be compromised. Computing falls well short offH > >this, ranging from the individual user who isn't willing to add a newJ > >application because it might destabilize their system, to a corporationJ > >that moves slowly to embrace e-business because today's platforms don't > >make the grade. > >"I > >[What you mean Bill, is that _Microsoft_ computing falls well short of  > >this]  < Indeed, but to the target audience computing :== bgcomputing   > >  > >Microsoft andK > >the computer industry will only succeed in that world if CIOs, consumersoC > >and everyone else sees that Microsoft has created a platform forw > >Trustworthy Computing.t  ? well, CIOs and consumers are the bread and butter of bgInc., soI@ I guess it doesn't matter what bgInc. does other than market and> continue their monopoly. As far as most technical folks, well, they hardly matter, right bill?     D > >No Trustworthy Computing platform exists today. It is only in theE > >context of the basic redesign we have done around .NET that we canhI > >achieve this. The key design decisions we made around .NET include thetH > >advances we need to deliver on this vision. Visual Studio .NET is theI > >first multi-language tool that is optimized for the creation of secure + > >code, so it is a key foundation element.d  : Now, the crux of the biscuit - a sales pitch for .NET....!   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:50:05 -0500d, From: "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org>/ Subject: Re: C++ appears to be available onlineo1 Message-ID: <jz338.284$PZ4.5117@news.cpqcorp.net>k  J Yes, hobbiests are encouraged to download the kit. Hopefully in the futureJ there will be enough room on the CD for it. For commericial users, keep in+ mind that Compaq C++ is a licensed product.2  J A valid license entitles you to use a particular version like V6.3 and allJ minor updates: V6.3-001, V6.3-002 etc. A field test kit can be used with aL license from any version, however, use should be discontinued when the field
 test ends.  I Compaq has attempted to minimize customer inconvenience by implementing apK very lax enforcement of license requirements. Thus just because the productrH will run on your machine, does not mean you have a valid license. PleaseI verify you have an appropriate license before installing a new Compaq C++, kit.  H The prefered method of download is through the following link. This willG take you to the latest kit which is V6.5. You will have to register andH accept the license agreement:   D ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/products/C-CXX/OpenVMS/cxx/beta/ftindex.htm  J Please respect the license agreement and do not force us to impose tighter security procedures.  	 Ken Blockt  
 Compaq C++  + <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in message.$ news:a2hjlv$ia$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk... >  > I just spotted this. >aH > Hobbiests might be interested that the C++ V6.3 (and what looks like a1 > beta C++ V6.5) appear to be available online at  >t > ftp.compaq.com >  > in >n" >  /pub/products/C-CXX/openvms/cxx >o	 > FTP> lse > 200 PORT command successful.7 > 150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for file list.o > beta > cxx063.dcx_axpexe- > CXX063.DCX_AXPEXE_oldu > cxx063.readme: > cxx065.dcx_axpexev > cxx065-001.dcx_axpexeo > cxx065-002.dcx_axpexeR > cxxae02062.a >n > 226 Transfer complete. >7 >D > David Webb > VMS and Unix team leader > CCSS > Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:12:02 GMT " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>( Subject: Re: Change quorum disk question/ Message-ID: <mC_28.284$A3.3256@typhoon.bart.nl>e  G That is indeed correct. Run ANALYZE/SYSTEM on a two node cluster with aBH quorum disk (or two ;-) and you'll see that the quorum disk is inactive.. It only comes into play once one node is lost.   Hans  : Mark D. Jilson <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote in message, news:3C4C2664.A66F946A@clarityconnect.com...H > Correct that quorum disk votes are always taken into account.  Using aH > quorum disk boils down to one requirement, the ability to shutdown allH > the systems (with a direct connection to the quorum disk) but one.  IfD > your cluster will not need this ability then the quorum disk isn'tG > needed.  And if you have the equipment to create a quorum system thenhF > this will almost always be a better option, performance wise, than a > quorum disk. >, > David McKenzie wrote:0 > > D > > Not true, the quorum disk vote(s) are always taken into account. > >uK > > Note that a quorum disk will lead to longer cluster transition times as. thetL > > cluster will have to wait (N+1)Qdiskinterval before it can safely assume thee1 > > last access to the quorum disk has been made.- > >-E > > Quorum disk is almost always of no use unless you have a two nodeJ cluster.H > > Note also, it is not much use if it is not directly connected to all nodes. > >81 > > "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in messagen0 > > news:inf28.7247$E82.20632@typhoon.bart.nl...J > > > In a three node cluster where all nodes have VOTES set to 1 there is no > > > need'w8 > > > for a quorum disk to survive the loss of one node.: > > > A quorum disk is useful in the following situations:J > > > - in a two-node cluster, provided that the quorum disk is visible to both > > > nodes;@ > > >   AFAIK that was the original reason for a "quorum device"J > > > - in a multi node cluster where you always want to have one group of nodessL > > >   avoid hanging in a cluster transition state. Usually there are other > > ways > > > of doing
 > > >   that.iK > > > IIRC  quorum disk votes are not taken into the computation as long asn	 > > there  > > > is quoruma  > > > delivered by system votes. > > >e
 > > > Hans > > >.L > > > Robert DiRosario <robert.j.dirosario.1@gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote in message- > > > news:3C483E22.34235FB0@gsfc.nasa.gov...  > > > >  > > > >t > > > > Hans Vlems wrote:M > > > > 4 > > > > > P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) wrote:G > > > > > >Robert DiRosario <rdirosario@starpower.net> wrote in messagee/ > > > news:<3C4773C9.E4851B5E@starpower.net>...  > > > > > >>L > > > > > >> The system disk is the quorum disk, and I see now that I should > > haveL > > > > > >> changed that before I added the second system.  How do I changeH > > > > > >> that now?  Can I copy the quorum.dat file to the new quorum disk,bI > > > > > >> take one node down, edit modparms.dat and run autogen on them nodeG > > > > > >> that's up, take it down and do the same on the other node?t > > > > > >> > > > > > >qE > > > > > >I'm not sure QUORUM.DAT contains any data that needs to be/	 preserveddL > > > > > >between reboots so I don't think you need to worry about making a > > > > > >copy of it... > > > > > >aG > > > > > > 00010002 454C4946 20204D55 524F5551 QUORUM  FILE.... 000000tG > > > > > > 00A0831A 2A8798BD 00A08319 06E9CA08 ........*.... 000010lG > > > > > > 00A0831A 09C50480 00A0831A 2B298FD8 .)+........... 000020eG > > > > > > 04010000 00000404 00030002 00010002 ................ 000030nG > > > > > > 00000000 00000000 3DA38CAA 00000000 .....=........ 000040i > > > > > >oD > > > > > >Simply shut down one computer (disk watcher), modify your > > MODPARAMS.DAT K > > > > > >on the other (disk watcher), autogen, and reboot. Boot the otherw then > > > do > > > > > >the same thing. > > > > > >rH > > > > > >The cute thing about this is the first time you mount the new quorumF > > > > > >disk you will notice it will automagically get a QUORUM.DAT createdt( > > > > > >on it right before your eyes. > > > > > > L > > > > > >Make sure you mount the (new non system disk) QUORUM disk on bothE > > > > > >nodes (disk watchers) on startup when all done - this is af > > > > > >requirement.eH > > > > > You are quite right but OTOH it is possible to define a quorum diskF > > > > > on a node that has no direct connection to that quorum disk.L > > > > > In fact in an NI cluster you can have two nodes, each with votes=1F > > > > > and each have its own quorum disk (i.e. two different quorum disks).mI > > > > > I know of a heavily used NI cluster that operated like that for  two  > > > yearstL > > > > > before we found out that it was not only unsupported but also very > > > dangerousp@ > > > > > because of possible disk corruption. Don't try this atC > > > > > home, but it just shows how flexible a VAXcluster can be.b	 > > > > >u > > > > > Hans	 > > > > >n  > > > > > http://www.zfree.co.nz > > > >mJ > > > > I have one more system to add to the cluster that will have direct
 > > access& > > > to the system disk, a 4000/105A.J > > > > After I add that system this weekend I don't think the quorum disk will > > be  > > > useful.  With or without aL > > > > quorum disk it looks like I need to have two of the three systems up to' > > > have a quorum, unless there is an @ > > > > undocumented method of giving the quorum disk two votes. > > > >l > > > > Robert > > > >i > > >s > > >c >a > --F > Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY/ > - jilly@clarityconnect.com - Brett Bodine fanm- > - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com - since 1975 or sol- > - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -c   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:05:04 -00000= From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@spitfire0.demon.co.uk>:( Subject: Re: Change quorum disk questionB Message-ID: <1011654396.25748.0.nnrp-10.c1edba74@news.demon.co.uk>  E To convince people about quorum disks, try this. Configure a two node K cluster with a quorum disk. Quorum disk three votes, each node one vote. IfeI you take the quorum disk offline the cluster will hang. This demonstratesbH that the quorum disk *must* be present in the cluster for it to function' *regardless* of nodes being up or down.i  ! Are we in violent agreement here?i    - "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in messagec) news:mC_28.284$A3.3256@typhoon.bart.nl..."I > That is indeed correct. Run ANALYZE/SYSTEM on a two node cluster with acJ > quorum disk (or two ;-) and you'll see that the quorum disk is inactive.0 > It only comes into play once one node is lost. >s > Hans >c< > Mark D. Jilson <jilly@clarityconnect.com> wrote in message. > news:3C4C2664.A66F946A@clarityconnect.com...J > > Correct that quorum disk votes are always taken into account.  Using aJ > > quorum disk boils down to one requirement, the ability to shutdown allJ > > the systems (with a direct connection to the quorum disk) but one.  IfF > > your cluster will not need this ability then the quorum disk isn'tI > > needed.  And if you have the equipment to create a quorum system theneH > > this will almost always be a better option, performance wise, than a > > quorum disk. > >d > > David McKenzie wrote:n > > >oF > > > Not true, the quorum disk vote(s) are always taken into account. > > > J > > > Note that a quorum disk will lead to longer cluster transition times as > theaG > > > cluster will have to wait (N+1)Qdiskinterval before it can safely  assume > theg3 > > > last access to the quorum disk has been made.a > > >eG > > > Quorum disk is almost always of no use unless you have a two noden
 > cluster.J > > > Note also, it is not much use if it is not directly connected to all > nodes. > > >n3 > > > "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote in message-2 > > > news:inf28.7247$E82.20632@typhoon.bart.nl...L > > > > In a three node cluster where all nodes have VOTES set to 1 there is > no
 > > > > need't: > > > > for a quorum disk to survive the loss of one node.< > > > > A quorum disk is useful in the following situations:L > > > > - in a two-node cluster, provided that the quorum disk is visible to > both > > > > nodes;B > > > >   AFAIK that was the original reason for a "quorum device"L > > > > - in a multi node cluster where you always want to have one group of > nodeseH > > > >   avoid hanging in a cluster transition state. Usually there are otherr
 > > > ways > > > > of doing > > > >   that.sJ > > > > IIRC  quorum disk votes are not taken into the computation as long as > > > there  > > > > is quorumo" > > > > delivered by system votes. > > > >i > > > > Hans > > > >tF > > > > Robert DiRosario <robert.j.dirosario.1@gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote in messageu/ > > > > news:3C483E22.34235FB0@gsfc.nasa.gov...a	 > > > > >e	 > > > > >? > > > > > Hans Vlems wrote:t	 > > > > >t6 > > > > > > P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) wrote:I > > > > > > >Robert DiRosario <rdirosario@starpower.net> wrote in messagep1 > > > > news:<3C4773C9.E4851B5E@starpower.net>...d > > > > > > >>G > > > > > > >> The system disk is the quorum disk, and I see now that Ie should
 > > > haveG > > > > > > >> changed that before I added the second system.  How do It changeJ > > > > > > >> that now?  Can I copy the quorum.dat file to the new quorum > disk,nK > > > > > > >> take one node down, edit modparms.dat and run autogen on thei > nodeI > > > > > > >> that's up, take it down and do the same on the other node?  > > > > > > >>
 > > > > > > >iG > > > > > > >I'm not sure QUORUM.DAT contains any data that needs to be  > preservedmL > > > > > > >between reboots so I don't think you need to worry about making ak > > > > > > >copy of it...
 > > > > > > >eI > > > > > > > 00010002 454C4946 20204D55 524F5551 QUORUM  FILE.... 000000lI > > > > > > > 00A0831A 2A8798BD 00A08319 06E9CA08 ........*.... 000010sI > > > > > > > 00A0831A 09C50480 00A0831A 2B298FD8 .)+........... 000020 I > > > > > > > 04010000 00000404 00030002 00010002 ................ 000030 I > > > > > > > 00000000 00000000 3DA38CAA 00000000 .....=........ 000040n
 > > > > > > >MF > > > > > > >Simply shut down one computer (disk watcher), modify your > > > MODPARAMS.DAT G > > > > > > >on the other (disk watcher), autogen, and reboot. Boot thee othero > then
 > > > > do > > > > > > >the same thing.
 > > > > > > > J > > > > > > >The cute thing about this is the first time you mount the new > quorumH > > > > > > >disk you will notice it will automagically get a QUORUM.DAT	 > createde* > > > > > > >on it right before your eyes.
 > > > > > > >pI > > > > > > >Make sure you mount the (new non system disk) QUORUM disk ons bothG > > > > > > >nodes (disk watchers) on startup when all done - this is ao > > > > > > >requirement. J > > > > > > You are quite right but OTOH it is possible to define a quorum > diskH > > > > > > on a node that has no direct connection to that quorum disk.F > > > > > > In fact in an NI cluster you can have two nodes, each with votes=1rH > > > > > > and each have its own quorum disk (i.e. two different quorum	 > disks).nK > > > > > > I know of a heavily used NI cluster that operated like that fori > twof
 > > > > yearshI > > > > > > before we found out that it was not only unsupported but alsoy very > > > > dangerousuB > > > > > > because of possible disk corruption. Don't try this atE > > > > > > home, but it just shows how flexible a VAXcluster can be.  > > > > > >0 > > > > > > Hans > > > > > > " > > > > > > http://www.zfree.co.nz	 > > > > >eL > > > > > I have one more system to add to the cluster that will have direct > > > access( > > > > to the system disk, a 4000/105A.L > > > > > After I add that system this weekend I don't think the quorum disk > will > > > be" > > > > useful.  With or without aK > > > > > quorum disk it looks like I need to have two of the three systemsv up > to) > > > > have a quorum, unless there is aniB > > > > > undocumented method of giving the quorum disk two votes.	 > > > > >  > > > > > Robert	 > > > > >t > > > >a > > > >r > >l > > --H > > Jilly - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY1 > > - jilly@clarityconnect.com - Brett Bodine fan / > > - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com - since 1975 or soe/ > > - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -a >  >l   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:27:52 GMTi" From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>3 Subject: Re: Congratulations for the festive season / Message-ID: <cR_28.285$A3.3348@typhoon.bart.nl>    A .mem file would be fine.   Hans  I Sorry for the late reply, it was difficult to find the post again in thisa	 series...e  8 Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:bCjpm1$QSPb2@eisner.encompasserve.org...nA > In article <pv3Z7.3825$E82.11098@typhoon.bart.nl>, "Hans Vlems"  <hvlems@iae.nl> writes:  > > You could post it :-)a; > > I'd be interested to read it, just for old time's sake.  > >s > > Hans > >a< > > Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message >mK > >>    I wrote a "BLISS for C Programmers" doc as an exercise to make suresL > >>    I knew BLISS.  It's got a few errors in it, but if I change the nameJ > >>    (e.g. C Programmers eqla Dummies) do you think I could sell a few? > F >    OK, that's the second request.  Let me get a couple of the bugs IF >    know out of it, then I'll post it.  You guys want the raw .rno or >    just the .mem?  >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 06:55:24 +0100 , From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>& Subject: DCL "compiler"? (not checker)& Message-ID: <3C4CFECC.876075E3@gmx.ch>  N Before starting a DCL compiler which of course will compile nothing but ratherH produce some cross references, maps, variables, channels and open/close L inventory, etc, I would like to know if this has been done by someone around
 here already.h  ; I did a scan of the V4 and V5 freeware CDs without success.   K To check long procedures, of course I use DCL_CHECKER, which is to DCL what 3 GraphicConverter is to photo editing on the MAC :-)e  K But to build a documentation of a thousand lines DCL procedure, I thought ac/ (kind of) "compiler" would be more than useful.   H Syntax: $ DCLCOMP myproc /cross/map/noobject oooops... no, not /noobject   Thanks,e   D. -- kH   ----------------------------------------------------------------------E MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmleE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670n/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.,  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais Man spricht Deutsch se habla Castellano English spoken   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:46:49 +0100y From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>* Subject: Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker)$ Message-ID: <3C4D0AD9.80608@home.nl>  E I'me sure there is / was a DCL compiler. If I remember correctly DCL uG code was changed to Fortran, and then compiled. But it has been a long n time since I read about it.n   Dirk   Didier Morandi wrote:p  O >Before starting a DCL compiler which of course will compile nothing but ratherfI >produce some cross references, maps, variables, channels and open/close kM >inventory, etc, I would like to know if this has been done by someone around  >here already. >q< >I did a scan of the V4 and V5 freeware CDs without success. >sL >To check long procedures, of course I use DCL_CHECKER, which is to DCL what4 >GraphicConverter is to photo editing on the MAC :-) >dL >But to build a documentation of a thousand lines DCL procedure, I thought a0 >(kind of) "compiler" would be more than useful. >hI >Syntax: $ DCLCOMP myproc /cross/map/noobject oooops... no, not /noobjecta >  >Thanks, >t >D.t >o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:32:00 -0500 ' From: Jim Becker <jbecker@ui.urban.org>n% Subject: Encompass Points, Edition IV , Message-ID: <3C4CA4F0.AFC27C48@ui.urban.org>  F Below, I include the latest edition of Encompass Points, the Encompass- newsletter, which was e-mailed on January 17.2   --
 Jim Becker+ The Urban Institute (http://www.urban.org/)n' Encompass (http://www.encompassus.org/)n. ESILUG (http://encompasserve.org/lugs/esilug/)                    2  E Welcome to the first 2002 issue of Encompass Points! Encompass Pointsr@ is a bi-monthly e-mail newsletter for Encompass, an independent,9 volunteer-driven organization providing Compaq users witheE opportunities for education, peer networking, and vendor advocacy. IfmB you would like to be removed from this list, please send e-mail to Information@encompassUS.org   A New e-mail address? E-mail Information@EncompassUS.org. Write NEWy+ ADDRESS in the subject line of the e-mail. t  > Send e-newsletter submissions to Information@EncompassUS.org.    ISSUE CONTENTS:  ** PRESIDENT'S MESSAGE n( ** MEMBERSHIP RENEWAL DISCOUNT EXTENDED 3 ** SIGN UP TO EXHIBIT NOW FOR BEST BOOTH SELECTION w  ** NEW MEMBER BENEFITS UNVEILED # ** ENCOMPASS ELECTS FOUR DIRECTORS  2 ** ALPHA TO ITANIUM ROADMAP RESOURCES HIGHLIGHTED  ** HP-COMPAQ MERGER UPDATE  6 ** TWO MORE SUCCESSFUL LPP EVENTS: PHOENIX AND AUSTIN ' ** DECEMBER UNIX TAG MEETING IN REVIEW  ( ** CELEBRATING SUCCESS:  YEAR-IN-REVIEW - ** LOCAL PARTNERSHIP KICK-OFF YEAR A SUCCESS   ** COMPAQ NEWS l3 *NEW COMPAQ ALPHASERVER CUSTOMER ASSURANCE PROGRAM   *CALLING ON COMPAQ o. *SPECIAL OFFER: BUY TRAINING MANUALS FOR LESS  ** 2002 CALENDAR t       -------------------  PRESIDENT'S MESSAGE  ------------------- ? I joined the DECUS, U.S. Chapter well over 20 years ago to stayoC abreast of the developments (and frankly to have an "in" on gettingoF patches) for my PDP-11/RSX-11D system. I switched from being a passive= member to an active volunteer about 15 years ago. By then, my E interests had expanded to learning how to squeeze the last processing F cycles out of a memory constrained VAX 750 that was supporting over 20B developers. From kilobytes of memory and single digit megahertz ofA processor cycle time (remember when 1 VAX Unit of  Processing waso; standard?) to today's gigabytes and gigahertz, the world ofmF technology, and perhaps most importantly, those of us who rely upon it have evolved dramatically.    F My user group involvement has grown over the years culminating into my? current position as president. What I know for sure is that thee< dedication of elected directors, board members and countlessD volunteers  has paved the way for our many accomplishments this pastC year. I extend my heartfelt thanks to these and all of you for your C participation, which has had added untold value to our membership.    B The start of each New Year brings newcomers, newly elected leaders< (see ENCOMPASS ELECTS FOUR DIRECTORS article below), and theE opportunity for new resolutions to do more and be better. This year IEA resolve to focus my energy towards the continued viability of ouri@ 39-year old user group and to provide each of you with the tools@ necessary to best leverage your current technologies and to best prepare for what's to come.   A I likewise invite each of you to resolve to renew your membership D https://safe2.sba.com/encompass/memberApp/individual.cfm, to be more. involved, and stay connected with your peers.   D As you hopefully already know, Encompass is making a major push thisF year to revitalize our Membership Program. We are putting some seriousD teeth into the tangible benefits such as the just announced _ShannonC Knows Compaq_ subscription savings in addition to the numerous, but4E more intangible benefits of meeting and sharing your experiences with8? your peers, the experts in the field, and those who provide the0> products and services you use. There are some significant cost% incentives to consider renewing your 0B membership early this year. For more information on our membershipB program and the incentives currently running, look for the article4 MEMBERSHIP RENEWAL DISCOUNT EXTENDED article below.   @ For me, Encompass is a community of peers who do more than shareD experiences "from the trenches." We are mentors. We are protgs. WeC are invested in each other's success. And because of it, we will doy$ more than succeed. We will triumph.   
 Joe Pollizzi c President, Encompass, U.S.        & ------------------------------------- % MEMBERSHIP RENEWAL DISCOUNT EXTENDED  & ------------------------------------- E For the benefit of those among us whose renewal reminder got "lost inu> the holiday shuffle," the special Premier Member rate is beingD extended through January 31, 2002 (membership valid through DecemberE 31, 2002). Those of you who renew or start your membership before the.? end of the month will pay only $79 for your first year as a new = Encompass Individual Member (or $99 for your first year as an ; International Individual Member). Why not purchase multiple > memberships for your company and use them as incentive for top performers?   F This special offer will enable you to take advantage of future special9 members-only benefits such as access to an updated onlinenF data/software library, future seminar event proceedings, and exclusive member discount offers. Visit @ https://safe2.sba.com/encompass/memberApp/individual.cfm to take& advantage of this very special offer.       0 ----------------------------------------------- 0 SIGN UP NOW TO EXHIBIT FOR BEST BOOTH SELECTION 0 ----------------------------------------------- D The 2002 Encompass Technical Exchange will take place October 7-9 at8 the Cervantes Convention Center in St. Louis, Missouri.   F As an Encompass member, we don't want your company to miss out on thisD opportunity to target customer contacts, gain new leads, and receive< first-hand knowledge of Compaq's product plans and strategic direction. u  E Signing up to exhibit is easy. Download and complete the registrationnE form available at http://www.encompassus.org/events/01cets/ENC021.pdfjD and fax to 312.644.0575 (credit card payments only). Ask how to takeB advantage of priority points that increase your power in the space selection process. m  D Questions? Please contact Shana Berezin at 312.673.5851 or by e-mail at sberezin@sba.com. 1         -----------------------------  NEW MEMBER BENEFITS UNVEILED t ----------------------------- C As part of the new membership structure roll out, Encompass membersI? are now eligible to take advantage of valuable new professionald. publication and magazine membership benefits.       - Subscribe for less to _Shannon Knows Compaq_ o  F Members will receive a 33% discount on new or renewed subscriptions toD _Shannon Knows Compaq_, savings of $130.35 off the regular $395 U.S.; subscription rate. To take advantage of this offer, e-mail M terryshannon@mediaone.net   D Free Subscription to INFORM: Compaq's Newsmagazine for IT Solutions   A All members may receive a free subscription to Compaq's quarterly @ magazine INFORM beginning with the February issue. To review the< December issue online, visit http://www.compaq.com/inform/.    More Benefits in the Works    = Coming soon - A new members-only section will be added to theeC Encompass web site. This restricted section will include discussiontF forums, discount offers, link to FTP library of DECUS software, tip ofB the month, and members business area featuring minutes, bylaws and audit information. t  C Plus, watch the calendar of events for scheduled regional seminars, 8 webcasts, and audio stream programming slated for 2002.   D To learn more about the new membership benefits and structure, click to r( http://www.encompassus.org/membership/.         -------------------------------   ENCOMPASS ELECTS FOUR DIRECTORS   ------------------------------- B Encompass recently announced the results of the board of directorsF elections for terms beginning January 1, 2002 and spanning 2002-2004.   ? Newly elected directors are Rochelle Lauer, Terry Shannon, Barbs% Nicholson, and newcomer Mark Clancy. s  D They join current Encompass President Joe Pollizzi and directors JimC Becker, Clyde Poole, Jean Norton, Patrick McMichael to comprise the0 Encompass leadership team.     To contact the board, visit - http://www.encompassus.org/about/board.html.        / ---------------------------------------------- l/ ALPHA TO ITANIUM ROADMAP RESOURCES HIGHLIGHTED  / ---------------------------------------------- nE Honoring our earlier pledge to provide on-going information about the E Alpha/Itanium transition, a new web page is now available on our sitevC at http://www.encompassus.org/whatsnew/alpha-itanium.html. The page D features links to a host of Alpha/Itanium transition information and@ resources, plus a PowerPoint Compaq presentation about announced Alpha/Itanium plans.    E Encompass members are often the best sources for information sharing. E Write to information@encompassus.org with suggested updated resources  for this page. a   ------------------------ D HQ-COMPAQ MERGER UPDATE  ------------------------ n! For the latest merger news, visit41 http://www.encompassus.org/whatsnew/hpmerge.html        3 -------------------------------------------------- @3 TWO MORE SUCCESSFUL LPP EVENTS: PHOENIX AND AUSTIN r3 -------------------------------------------------- g> Compaq users gathered in Phoenix and Austin during the week ofC November 12 to obtain technical training and share experiences withn> one another. Once again, the consensus was that these meetings@ provided excellent technical information that was key to currentF business and technical needs.  Thanks to the Local Partnership Program< (LPP) team, speakers, Encompass board representatives, localB volunteers, Phoenix sponsor (Arrow Electronics), and attendees who made these programs a success!    + Both meetings included presentations from: t  9 *Rich Colarusso, Compaq: "Compaq's Strategic Directions" r" *Karen Fay, SAN Technology Update  *OpenVMS Updates:  e3 *Austin - John Wisniewski, Compaq: OpenVMS Futures .? *Phoenix - Gaitan D'Antoni, Compaq: Porting OpenVMS to Itanium 5  . For more information about these past events: 2 http://www.encompassus.org/events/LPP/Austin.html 3 http://www.encompassus.org/events/LPP/Phoenix.html  F Interested in participating or suggesting topics or locations? Contact the LPP Manager Jenny Butler.       & ------------------------------------- $ CELEBRATING SUCCESS: YEAR-IN-REVIEW & -------------------------------------   > Our combined efforts have accomplished much this first year ofD operation. Thanks to your incredible support, we are able to recount these 2001 highlights:    , *Developed and implemented a strategic plan   B *Developed and began implementation of new membership benefits and
 structure   < *Maintained strong ties with Compaq through proposed merger   E *Provided access to Compaq through events, Advocacy Working Group and 2 survey; advocated on behalf of members' interests   & *Jointly hosted CETS 2001 with Compaq   E *Hosted successful Encompass Exposition and launched a pre-conference " TechWorks Bootcamp seminar series   F *Established successful Local Partnership Program; hosted five events   8 *Held four Tru64 UNIX Technical Advisory Group meetings   B *Developed new Local User Group (LUG) handbook and policies; began licensing LUGs under Encompass    6 *Established new look and feel for Encompass web site   4 *Launched membership newsletter, _Encompass Points_       & ------------------------------------- $ DECEMBER UNIX TAG MEETING IN REVIEW & ------------------------------------- B Missed the December UNIX Technical Advisory Group conference call?* Learning what was discussed is easy. VisitA http://www.encompassus.org/whatsnew/TAGMtg.html to review meetingeF results and action items. Watch the web site for upcoming events where you can join your peers.        + ------------------------------------------ r* LOCAL PARTNERSHIP KICK-OFF YEAR A SUCCESS + ------------------------------------------  @ The Local Partnership Program (LPP) between Encompass and CompaqC concluded a successful first year in 2001.  Meetings were conductedrD around the country, each providing attendees in that area a full dayE of in-depth technical training not available from any other source.  m  @ We want to give a special thanks to the 2001 team that made this happen:    From Encompass: + *  Barbara Nicholson, Board Representative m *  Jenny Butler, Plan Manager + *  Shannon Hegerfeld, Encompass HQ support c
 From Compaq: n0 *  Mark Yanow & Anne Foley, User Group Programs $ *  Michael Stewart, Content Advisor $ *  Bill Horzempa, Executive Sponsor   & For more information about LPP visit: 1 http://www.encompassus.org/events/LPP/index.html e      
 ------------ n COMPAQ NEWS 
 ------------ s  3 --------------------------------------------------  2 NEW COMPAQ ALPHASERVER CUSTOMER ASSURANCE PROGRAM 3 -------------------------------------------------- iD Compaq boasts a new standard for commitment to customer satisfaction: by being the only vendor to offer a broad based money-backF satisfaction guarantee. This exclusive guarantee is available with all@ new AlphaServer(tm) systems. The new Compaq AlphaServer Customer< Assurance Program offers a comprehensive suite of investment> protection initiatives available to customers and partners who= purchase new AlphaServer systems running Tru64(tm) UNIX(r) or E OpenVMS(tm) today, and who anticipate transitioning to an Itanium(tm) B processor family-based system running OpenVMS or the new convergedF enterprise UNIX environment in the future.  Specific components of the program include:    3 *       Money Back Customer Satisfaction Guarantee s5 *       AlphaServer(tm) Product Continuity Guarantee mE *       Technology Refresh Incentives and Guaranteed Trade-In Values 5! *       Transition Lease Program i* *       Compaq Software License Trade-ins * *       Support for ISV License Transfers - *       Storage Product Continuity Guarantee w1 *       Transition Tools, Resources and Services d   To learn more, visit ,= http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/customer_care.html. o   ------------------ s CALLING ON COMPAQ  ------------------ r  F Contact Compaq's North America Pre-Sales System Engineering (NAPSE) atE 1.800.AT.COMPAQ for free technical assistance sizing and specifying awE configuration from 8:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time or byi e-mail at NAPSE@Compaq.com.   ? Compaq system engineers are ready to provide information in the  following areas:    ; * TECHNICAL INFORMATION (product specs, features, benefits,t7 configuration criteria and performance/benchmark data) -  A * PURCHASE DECISION CONSULTING (configuration assistance, RFI/RFPg% research, quote reviews/validations) n  ? * SYSTEMS CHARACTERIZATIONS (sizing, scaling, upgrade/migration 
 analysis)   8 ------------------------------------------------------- 8 SPECIAL OFFER: BUY PROFESSIONAL COMPUTER BOOKS FOR LESS 8 -------------------------------------------------------   D From now until January 31, 2002, you can save 35% off Compaq-related books through Digital Press. y  F Taking advantage of this discount can save as much as $20 off the listA price while adding valuable professional books to your library ofs resources. e    For more information, check out  http://www.bhusa.com/compaqbookstore/us/subindex.asp?maintarget=&isbn=&country=United+States&srccode=&ref=&subcode=&head=&pdf=.   B Watch for more exclusive Encompass members discounts offers in the1 future sponsored by Encompass and Digital Press.         -------------- l 2002 CALENDAR  -------------- t   January though March 2002    January 22   Business Continuity Forum  Compaq Computer Corporation  Tampa,FL         8:00 AM  Questions? www.bizconforum.com g   Compaq IT Forum  Compaq Computer Corporation  Pleasanton,CA    9:00 AM " Questions? www.compaqitforums.com    January 23   Compaq IT Forum  Compaq Computer Corporation  Columbus,OH      8:00 AM " Questions? www.compaqitforums.com    January 24 n Compaq IT Forum  Compaq Computer Corporation  Seattle,WA               8:00 AM " Questions? www.compaqitforums.com    Business Continuity Forum  Compaq Computer Corporation  Richmond,VA  8:00 AM  Questions? www.bizconforum.com P  ! Compaq-Akamai Executive Briefing A
 Lexington,MA .) Questions? www.compaq-signup.com/akamai/ d   January 25 & 26 - Encompass Board Meeting Colorado Springs, CO a    January 29-31 3 Windows 2000 Active Directory Deployment Workshops r3 Sponsored by Microsoft, TechNet, Compaq and Net IQ   Waltham,MA      6 Questions? www.entirenet.net/registration/deployment/    January 31 r+ Deadline for discounted membership renewal P  	 FEBRUARY b   February 6 l CARTS LUG Meeting  Chicago,IL e% http://encompasserve.org/lugs/carts/  < Questions? Contact David Gudewicz david.gudewicz@ABBOTT.COM    February 7 n Compaq IT Forum  Compaq Computer Corporation  Greenbelt,MD     8:00 AM " Questions? www.compaqitforums.com    February 13  Penn. State Area LUG Meeting i State College,PA   12:00 Noon D Hoss' Steak House  l< Questions? Contact John Stitzinger stitzinger@centreweb.com   ( Compaq-McData Large Fabric Design Class  Compaq Computer Corporation  Rocky Hill,CT , Questions? Contact dana.campbell@compaq.com    February 20  Compaq IT Forum  Compaq Computer Corporation  New York,NY  8:30 AM " Questions? www.compaqitforums.com    February 25-27 I3 Windows 2000 Active Directory Deployment Workshops  3 Sponsored by Microsoft, TechNet, Compaq and Net IQ E New York,NY      I7 Questions?  www.entirenet.net/registration/deployment/ L   MARCH    March 6  New England Storage Days M Compaq Computer Corporation   Shrewsbury,MA (Compaq Facility) # Questions? kent.buschle@compaq.com R   March 7  New England Storage Days 0 Compaq Computer Corporation $ Rocky Hill,CT (Rocky Hill Marriott) " Questions? kent.buschle@compaq.com   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jan 2002 10:34:37 -0800+ From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)oD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!= Message-ID: <e565ed03.0201211034.5b3436e5@posting.google.com>m  X JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3C46DB88.A8B1B95@videotron.ca>...G > When did Compaq respond in comparison with the date of publication ofk > Gartner's opinion ?s > O > It is *possible* that Compaq was asleep at the wheel and only responded afternL > the got a peek at the report, and now that it has been published, they are > trying to raise their voice. > K > Another possibility is that Compaq (senior) wanted Gartner to publish badoM > stuff about VMS to help the migration from VMS to NT over time, and GartnerdO > listened to Compaq (senior) and discarded the stuff from Compaq (VMS grunts).m  A 	I tell you, you seem to be more full of conspiracy theories thanl facts.B It's incredible.  No matter what is said, you have to conjure up a negativeD view of some perceived attempt to kill off OpenVMS.  Eckard Pfieffer saidC OpenVMS more times in one keynote than Robert Palmer did his entires term.MB Capellas was the first CEO to take the stage at DECUS, and wore an@ OpenVMS license plate on his chest.  If anything, the reason why Compaq management isE souring on OpenVMS is because of whining like this at Compaq - ratherd rallyingA against Gartner instead!  If you really, and I mean REALLY, caredo
 about OpenVMStC  - you'd be jabbing your barbs at Gartner rather than Mark and Sue.s  B 	And that "first name basis" crack?  You're the one that shot your credibility with that one.  F 	You want Compaq and OpenVMS Engineering to help you?  Then help them.@ Write Gartner Group and tell them you feel their "opinion" is in serious error.A Tell them that their belief OpenVMS can't port to Itanium is B.S.e because theyB did so well with VAX->Alpha.  OpenVMS has some of the best O/S and CompilerD people in the world - no other company is more and better equiped to port$ to Itanium than OpenVMS Engineering.  F 	Ask Gartner why they suggested to pull M$ IIS servers?  Then ask themE when the last time they saw an OpenVMS network get overrun by a major0C incident like that.  What about that .NET security problem in WXP?   DoesF anyone remember the last external exposure an OpenVMS system had?  Ask themE why they haven't slammed Outlook, when it's been the critical path ofy the lastE several billion dollars of damages of e-mail viruses?  I've never had. a E successfull virus attack on my OpenVMS system, yet I regularly use iti to
 examine them.e  P > No matter what really happens, the fact that Gartner has a negative opinion ofJ > VMS is fully understandable when you consider the total lack of interest > Compaq corporate has in VMS.  D 	Give me a break.  Of course Gartner has a negative opinion.  That'sD their job is to have negative opinions.  Gartner has been predicting	 the deathxA of OpenVMS for over 10 years.  And they've been wrong for over 10  years.  ThisC should be pointed out to them. Repeatedly.  OpenVMS has survived inm spite ofE their negative press before, and will again.  Instead of preaching to  the9A choir here, drop a message off to the Gartner group today.  Maybe  that's whatm? we need to do - declare a "stop bitching at Compaq and bitch atf Gartner instead"D day.  We can make it a regular thing - every time they issue a bogus
 "research" report like this last one.  < 	Now, why supposely OpenVMS professionals would give Gartner credibilitye' on OpenVMS issues is totally beyond me.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:05:24 -0500e% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> D Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!, Message-ID: <3C4C747F.19D3EF11@videotron.ca>   "David L. Cathey" wrote:D > did so well with VAX->Alpha.  OpenVMS has some of the best O/S and
 > CompilerF > people in the world - no other company is more and better equiped to > port& > to Itanium than OpenVMS Engineering.  J How much of Digital's compiler people needed for the port of VMS are still within Compaq ?k  G Also, how much work will Intel people do for VMS compilers on IA64 ? WepJ already know that Alpha based compilers will be "matured" on VMS with justK maintenance releases. I wonder if that will cause problems with the "single0# code base" for both IA64 and Alpha.h   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:50:43 GMTs* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>D Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!A Message-ID: <7qZ28.40150$QB1.2993374@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>T  8 "David L. Cathey" <davidc@montagar.com> wrote in message7 news:e565ed03.0201211034.5b3436e5@posting.google.com...r   ...l   > Eckard Pfieffera > saidE > OpenVMS more times in one keynote than Robert Palmer did his entire  > term.u  I I don't recall nearly as much criticism of Compaq during Pfeiffer's briefsJ reign over VMS.  In fact, most of the subsequent criticism has centered on4 the changes that occurred after Pfeiffer was ousted.  D > Capellas was the first CEO to take the stage at DECUS, and wore an% > OpenVMS license plate on his chest.   G And people noticed and were appreciative - until it became obvious thatoK expecting any support beyond the confines of the existing VMS community wasT6 not going to accompany such internal cosmetic touches.     If anything, the reason whyt > Compaq management is> > souring on OpenVMS is because of whining like this at Compaq  L Really?  Did they tell you this directly, or are you just talking completelyD off the top of your head?  Some people who share your enthusiasm forJ Compaq's stewardship of VMS claim that Compaq pays no attention whatsoeverL to what transpires here, so you really should get together with them and get your stories straight.  	  - rathera
 > rallyingC > against Gartner instead!  If you really, and I mean REALLY, caredc > about OpenVMS/E >  - you'd be jabbing your barbs at Gartner rather than Mark and Sue.-  E Well, if you really, and I mean really, cared about OpenVMS, you'd benH directing your comments to Compaq upper management rather than here.  So there.  L Perhaps you'd be better off trying to understand *why* people who care aboutI VMS are so upset at Compaq rather than trying to disparage their motives.a   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:30:42 -0500r' From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com>hD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!' Message-ID: <3C4C9692.F12ED05E@gce.com>a   Bill Todd wrote: > : > "David L. Cathey" <davidc@montagar.com> wrote in message9 > news:e565ed03.0201211034.5b3436e5@posting.google.com...- >  > ...- >  > > Eckard Pfiefferi > > saidG > > OpenVMS more times in one keynote than Robert Palmer did his entiren	 > > term.e > K > I don't recall nearly as much criticism of Compaq during Pfeiffer's briefaL > reign over VMS.  In fact, most of the subsequent criticism has centered on6 > the changes that occurred after Pfeiffer was ousted. >   M Ah but Bill, you were not participating in the group then. 8-) I don't recall E so much from JF either, but the tone here has gotten strident withouta8 ameliorating benefit of technical detail. THAT pains me.  I The depth of support for VMS within Compaq and DEC before it was always a-G worry point. I have expressed such to various folks both here and (morewH relevantly) within DEC as have many others.  It is however unpleasant toH hear constantly of worst-case scenarios presented as though everyone whoH prefers to try to find other possible cases also was an idiot. The worstG case scenarios might happen, but could possibly be avoided too, if someg/ goodwill in the right places can be generated. g  K Jesus Christ preached that one should turn the other cheek and be forgivingaF of those who offend, but we also acknowledge that most people are not H equipped with that same moral fibre, and counting on it as a response by1 anyone seems not the most promising path to take.w  O The details of the finances involved are of no great interest to me, so long as P I fail to see marketing push and so long as affected sales folks are not pushingK VMS where applicable as well as other products of the vendor. Some of those O not doing this have for years given implausible reasons for it. Still, throwing J bombs at them (literally or figuratively) while satisfying, will not help.  P (Apologies in advance to others reading here for prolonging this thread though.) Glenn Everhart   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 01:45:44 GMTC* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>D Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!A Message-ID: <cv338.45277$QB1.3429128@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>f  4 "Glenn Everhart" <Everhart@gce.com> wrote in message! news:3C4C9692.F12ED05E@gce.com...t >e >e > Bill Todd wrote: > >0< > > "David L. Cathey" <davidc@montagar.com> wrote in message; > > news:e565ed03.0201211034.5b3436e5@posting.google.com...e > >s > > ...u > >  > > > Eckard Pfieffert
 > > > saidI > > > OpenVMS more times in one keynote than Robert Palmer did his entireA > > > term.n > >uG > > I don't recall nearly as much criticism of Compaq during Pfeiffer'ss briefSK > > reign over VMS.  In fact, most of the subsequent criticism has centeredp on8 > > the changes that occurred after Pfeiffer was ousted. > >s >e< > Ah but Bill, you were not participating in the group then.  H Actually, I began shortly before Pfeiffer's departure.  And I definitelyF recall at least some optimism about his attitude toward VMS and Alpha,L though the amount of damage that DEC had done before the acquisition and theH need for emphatic and immediate steps to compensate actively rather than9 simply stop the damage were also subjects for discussion.-    8-) I don't recall-G > so much from JF either, but the tone here has gotten strident withoutl: > ameliorating benefit of technical detail. THAT pains me.  K Unfortunately, a great deal of the problem is not technical in nature.  ButsE the question of how well one can expect Itanic to perform against its.H competition, in various system configurations, certainly has significantF technical aspects (though people eager to promote the advantages of an. Itanic future seem reluctant to discuss them).   > K > The depth of support for VMS within Compaq and DEC before it was always ae > worry point.  L 'Always' is a long time.  It certainly wasn't an issue 15 or more years ago,J and (though that's when I ceased to have much contact with DEC for quite aC while) my impression is that it's been true for less than a decade. L Furthermore, the period around the acquisition was IIRC a period of at leastD cautious optimism for improvement, and a few post-acquisition events appeared to justify it.r  ;  I have expressed such to various folks both here and (more J > relevantly) within DEC as have many others.  It is however unpleasant toJ > hear constantly of worst-case scenarios presented as though everyone who@ > prefers to try to find other possible cases also was an idiot.  F I suppose it would be, if that were occurring.  However, the scenariosI presented are hardly worst-case, but rather likely-case.  And when peoplefJ choose to vehemently contest them without bringing any data save their ownC biases to the discussion, then treating them as idiots may be a bittH uncharitable but is not particularly inappropriate (especially when theyK persist in doing so after repeated attempts to bring the discussion to beart on the applicable details).l  
  The worstI > case scenarios might happen, but could possibly be avoided too, if someI0 > goodwill in the right places can be generated.  K A nice sentiment:  exactly how do you propose to go about this in ways thatrL haven't already been tried for years?  And why would you expect more successD now, given that the cast of characters one needs to deal with hasn't changed?   >eC > Jesus Christ preached that one should turn the other cheek and bee	 forgivingfG > of those who offend, but we also acknowledge that most people are noteJ > equipped with that same moral fibre, and counting on it as a response by3 > anyone seems not the most promising path to take.n  I Turning the other cheek toward Compaq has only succeeded in spreading theaK bruises around more evenly, not caused Compaq to rethink its actions (which.G I believe was Christ's point - the potentially beneficial effect of noto@ automatically responding to anger with anger, rather than simpleE non-violence per se).  Now that there aren't any more cheeks to turn, L another approach becomes necessary (and I don't believe Christ had a problem7 with self-defense when turning the other cheek failed).    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jan 2002 19:47:25 -0800+ From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)fD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!= Message-ID: <e565ed03.0201211947.285814f2@posting.google.com>   s "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<7qZ28.40150$QB1.2993374@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...-: > "David L. Cathey" <davidc@montagar.com> wrote in message9 > news:e565ed03.0201211034.5b3436e5@posting.google.com...- >  > ...- >  > > Eckard Pfieffer- > > saidG > > OpenVMS more times in one keynote than Robert Palmer did his entirek	 > > term.i > K > I don't recall nearly as much criticism of Compaq during Pfeiffer's briefhL > reign over VMS.  In fact, most of the subsequent criticism has centered on6 > the changes that occurred after Pfeiffer was ousted.  @ 	I still think he got a bum rap...  Palmer was a CEO that should have been ousted, but wasn't.s  F > > Capellas was the first CEO to take the stage at DECUS, and wore an' > > OpenVMS license plate on his chest.o > I > And people noticed and were appreciative - until it became obvious that-M > expecting any support beyond the confines of the existing VMS community was 8 > not going to accompany such internal cosmetic touches. >  >   If anything, the reason whyo > > Compaq management is@ > > souring on OpenVMS is because of whining like this at Compaq > N > Really?  Did they tell you this directly, or are you just talking completelyF > off the top of your head?  Some people who share your enthusiasm forL > Compaq's stewardship of VMS claim that Compaq pays no attention whatsoeverN > to what transpires here, so you really should get together with them and get > your stories straight.  B 	I've heard what I've heard.  There are some people here that haveK pissed off people at Compaq.  This is NOT how you work together.  You don'taF productively engage people by inventing conspiracy theories of Compaq K management covertly plotting the demise of OpenVMS.  Not everyone at CompaqrI reads this newsgroup, but when competitors put your postings in from of auN potential OpenVMS customer - are you (and I do me YOU) helping to sell OpenVMS, or helping the customer buy another product?  F 	Before you bitch at Compaq's marketing of OpenVMS, take a good, long,O honest look at your own marketing of OpenVMS, too.  Remember that word-of-mouth M is often some of the strongest and most effective marketing tool, even today.   : >  - ratheri > > rallyingE > > against Gartner instead!  If you really, and I mean REALLY, caredo > > about OpenVMSoG > >  - you'd be jabbing your barbs at Gartner rather than Mark and Sue.@ > G > Well, if you really, and I mean really, cared about OpenVMS, you'd beoJ > directing your comments to Compaq upper management rather than here.  So > there.  D 	I care about OpenVMS, which I support by action, not just comments.J I talk to and support OpenVMS customers, I actively participate in OpenVMSO Field Tests, I run the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program, I've taught OpenVMS Management P Classes in the DFW area as well as DECUS/CETS, and I've hosted to DFWDays eventsP in the Dallas Area over the past two years (yes, my credit card was on the line)@ to provide up-to-date OpenVMS information to those in this area.  @ 	I think I've shown my level of care and committment of OpenVMS.  N > Perhaps you'd be better off trying to understand *why* people who care aboutK > VMS are so upset at Compaq rather than trying to disparage their motives.m  F 	I don't disparage your motives.  You want OpenVMS to be promoted moreN by Compaq.  I do to.  What I disparage is the methods, the language used (i.e.L killing OpenVMS), and some of the tone that's used.  It's counterproductive.  G 	Besides making up stories about Compaq trying to covertly kill OpenVMS P and move everyone to NT by some evil plot with some Gartner cohorts, think aboutL the simple and more likely truth - Gartner Analyists are clueless twits thatO do not have a clue about OpenVMS, never have, never will.  They hate it becausehN they don't understand it.  And they're just pissed because after over a decade' of OpenVMS obituaries, it's still here.h   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jan 2002 20:03:12 -0800+ From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)aD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!= Message-ID: <e565ed03.0201212003.51b6b7ad@posting.google.com>a  Y JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3C4C747F.19D3EF11@videotron.ca>...E > "David L. Cathey" wrote:F > > did so well with VAX->Alpha.  OpenVMS has some of the best O/S and > > CompilerH > > people in the world - no other company is more and better equiped to > > port( > > to Itanium than OpenVMS Engineering. > L > How much of Digital's compiler people needed for the port of VMS are still > within Compaq ?i  D 	It's my understanding that all the compiler people needed are stillA there.  They were not part of the "Alpha chip" people movement toa Intel, thatA( was restricted to the hardware designers  I > Also, how much work will Intel people do for VMS compilers on IA64 ? WeeL > already know that Alpha based compilers will be "matured" on VMS with justM > maintenance releases. I wonder if that will cause problems with the "single % > code base" for both IA64 and Alpha.   B 	All the current Alpha compilers use the same backend, so the sameB front-end will exist on all platforms.  I expect the Alpha backend willF "mature" in the case that there will be less code-optimization done at thewD backend.  As more of the O/S migrates to higher-level languages like C, thereD will be even less problems with having a single code base.  Remember	 that with B Alpha, MACRO-32 became a "high-level language", too!  This is much like theE continued support for DEC C on the VAX, even though they haven't madet one in@ 2 years.  Language-feature support continues, but the backend is matured.  B 	Any of the work done by Intel for compiler support will likely be8 backend work, which will benefit both OpenVMS and Tru64.  F 	When I talked to some of the Engineers involved in this at CETS, theyC seemed fully confident that the porting effort was going as good orh better thano planned.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:20:14 GMTh1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>eD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!' Message-ID: <3C4CE987.9CDB8B03@fsi.net>r   "David L. Cathey" wrote: > [snip]O >         I don't disparage your motives.  You want OpenVMS to be promoted moreeP > by Compaq.  I do to.  What I disparage is the methods, the language used (i.e.N > killing OpenVMS), and some of the tone that's used.  It's counterproductive.  E I think what has every well past their wit's end is that we've yet to  find anything "productive".r  . o Face-to-face sessions have proven fruitless.  @ o Repeated requests ala OVMS-Hobby at national symposia ("Compaq5 Listens" - or do they?) have been repeatedly ignored.e  A o Top customers have beaten them bloody with little or no effect.o  @ Perhaps ObL's "talents" would be more productive here than in heH international arena. Dunno. We've tried everything, but continue to loseF ground. We can't even arrest the slide, and the Q are doing everything can to accelerate the slide.  P >         Besides making up stories about Compaq trying to covertly kill OpenVMSR > and move everyone to NT by some evil plot with some Gartner cohorts, think aboutN > the simple and more likely truth - Gartner Analyists are clueless twits thatQ > do not have a clue about OpenVMS, never have, never will.  They hate it becauseoP > they don't understand it.  And they're just pissed because after over a decade) > of OpenVMS obituaries, it's still here.h  B Believe me, we understand all that, and everything that I snipped.  5 The problem lies is "what we can and cannot control".2  C Talking up VMS here and being positive, here and in other fora, hasu@ consistently failed to produce results for years. This is easilyF documentable by search the Google archives and mapping OpenVMS's slide> during the same period(s). So that's obviously not the answer.  ? Compaq can easily stop all this negativism - simply, easily andaH effectively: prove it wrong. So simple, perhaps, that only a child couldG do it - it may be beyond the average business type at teh Q or anywheref else.   G The negativism is the effect, not the cause. Both positive and negativecG tend to be self propagating. Unfortunately, negativity is more prolifics( than positivity (if that's even a word).  < The bottom line is, it's all in the Q's hands at this point.  F One course - market expansion beyond the "high-end" niches, aggressiveB marketing, price reductions, incentives, etc. - leads to increased% profits and prosperity and longevity.c  A Another course - the status quo - led us to where we stand today.h  # The choice is entirely up to the Q.n  E ...just don't expect us to stand idly, silently by while our jobs andeE careers evaporate and our systems get sold for scrap and are replacedf with BillyBoxes.   Re: Aggressive marketing  D Here's an alliance the Q should not only plug into, but take example from:o  ' REPORT: AOL IN TALKS TO ACQUIRE RED HATy  * Posted January 21, 2002 07:34 Pacific Time  7 BERLIN -- AOL Time Warner Inc. (AOLTW) is in talks overe0 a potential acquisition of Red Hat Inc., a major6 distributor of the open-source Linux operating system,& The Washington Post reported Saturday.  3 The negotiations "are still fluid," the paper said,n. citing sources familiar with the matter. AOLTW2 subsidiary America Online Inc. (AOL) is said to be4 interested in Linux as a possible alternative to the3 dominant Windows operating systems of its archrivalt Microsoft Corp.o     For the full story:aP http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/01/21/020121hnaolredhat.xml?0121mneb  D (Sorry if the URL wrapped.) AOL/TW is not afraid to piss off EmperorF William I. Now, the Q can take an aggressive stance as well. Imagine aD strategic alliance with AOL/TW to build/sell Linux desktops with AOLF pre-loaded! Who knows? the Fall of Microsoft might even make the Walls3 of Jericho look like a vase falling off the mantle.i  C ...and given that precedent and alliance, the Q need no longer feard0 pissing off Billy by selling VMS against NT/W2K.  ? ...and by the way: the Q had better do something before *I* do!vD ...unless they want to compete with *ME* for Linux desktops with AOLH pre-loaded! This just could be the chance of a lifetime for someone like me.r   -- a David J. Dachterag dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 23:45:04 -0500t+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com>oD Subject: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4016CE885@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   David,  E There appears to be a few different views of the AOL-Red Hat rumour -i) http://news.com.com/2100-1001-819578.htmlT' " Sources: AOL not bidding for Red Hat"t  F Definately would be an interesting turn of events if it did happen ie.- big media types getting into the IT business.o   :-)l   Regardso  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantt Compaq Canada Corp.w Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----6 From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net] Sent: January 21, 2002 11:20 PMo To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComoD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!     "David L. Cathey" wrote: > [snip]A >         I don't disparage your motives.  You want OpenVMS to be 
 promoted moreeE > by Compaq.  I do to.  What I disparage is the methods, the languagel
 used (i.e.; > killing OpenVMS), and some of the tone that's used.  It'si counterproductive.  E I think what has every well past their wit's end is that we've yet to- find anything "productive".a  . o Face-to-face sessions have proven fruitless.  @ o Repeated requests ala OVMS-Hobby at national symposia ("Compaq5 Listens" - or do they?) have been repeatedly ignored.7  A o Top customers have beaten them bloody with little or no effect.a  @ Perhaps ObL's "talents" would be more productive here than in heH international arena. Dunno. We've tried everything, but continue to loseF ground. We can't even arrest the slide, and the Q are doing everything can to accelerate the slide.  H >         Besides making up stories about Compaq trying to covertly kill OpenVMSbF > and move everyone to NT by some evil plot with some Gartner cohorts, think abouttC > the simple and more likely truth - Gartner Analyists are cluelessa
 twits thatF > do not have a clue about OpenVMS, never have, never will.  They hate
 it becauseG > they don't understand it.  And they're just pissed because after overt a decade) > of OpenVMS obituaries, it's still here.e  B Believe me, we understand all that, and everything that I snipped.  5 The problem lies is "what we can and cannot control".   C Talking up VMS here and being positive, here and in other fora, hasp@ consistently failed to produce results for years. This is easilyF documentable by search the Google archives and mapping OpenVMS's slide> during the same period(s). So that's obviously not the answer.  ? Compaq can easily stop all this negativism - simply, easily andpH effectively: prove it wrong. So simple, perhaps, that only a child couldG do it - it may be beyond the average business type at teh Q or anywhere  else.   G The negativism is the effect, not the cause. Both positive and negativeaG tend to be self propagating. Unfortunately, negativity is more prolificn( than positivity (if that's even a word).  < The bottom line is, it's all in the Q's hands at this point.  F One course - market expansion beyond the "high-end" niches, aggressiveB marketing, price reductions, incentives, etc. - leads to increased% profits and prosperity and longevity.h  A Another course - the status quo - led us to where we stand today.s  # The choice is entirely up to the Q.o  D ..just don't expect us to stand idly, silently by while our jobs andE careers evaporate and our systems get sold for scrap and are replacedf with BillyBoxes.   Re: Aggressive marketing  D Here's an alliance the Q should not only plug into, but take example from:h  ' REPORT: AOL IN TALKS TO ACQUIRE RED HATw  * Posted January 21, 2002 07:34 Pacific Time  7 BERLIN -- AOL Time Warner Inc. (AOLTW) is in talks overw0 a potential acquisition of Red Hat Inc., a major6 distributor of the open-source Linux operating system,& The Washington Post reported Saturday.  3 The negotiations "are still fluid," the paper said,h. citing sources familiar with the matter. AOLTW2 subsidiary America Online Inc. (AOL) is said to be4 interested in Linux as a possible alternative to the3 dominant Windows operating systems of its archrival  Microsoft Corp.      For the full story:oH http://www.infoworld.com/articles/hn/xml/02/01/21/020121hnaolredhat.xml? 0121mneb  D (Sorry if the URL wrapped.) AOL/TW is not afraid to piss off EmperorF William I. Now, the Q can take an aggressive stance as well. Imagine aD strategic alliance with AOL/TW to build/sell Linux desktops with AOLF pre-loaded! Who knows? the Fall of Microsoft might even make the Walls3 of Jericho look like a vase falling off the mantle.   B ..and given that precedent and alliance, the Q need no longer fear0 pissing off Billy by selling VMS against NT/W2K.  > ..and by the way: the Q had better do something before *I* do!C ..unless they want to compete with *ME* for Linux desktops with AOLsH pre-loaded! This just could be the chance of a lifetime for someone like me.c   --=20  David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemsv http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/y   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 05:18:02 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>D Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!A Message-ID: <eC638.41676$jd7.2919998@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>e  8 "David L. Cathey" <davidc@montagar.com> wrote in message7 news:e565ed03.0201211947.285814f2@posting.google.com...57 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagej= news:<7qZ28.40150$QB1.2993374@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...!   ...g  C > I've heard what I've heard.  There are some people here that have  > pissed off people at Compaq.  I Given the degree to which Compaq has screwed some of them, I suspect thatD5 they may not have a great deal of remorse about that.   $   This is NOT how you work together.  H Indeed.  But 'working together' has for many years been the goal only ofK VMS's external supporters, not of VMS's owners.  After a long enough period H of trying to 'work together' and failing utterly, people tend to get the+ idea that a different approach is required.h     You don'tiG > productively engage people by inventing conspiracy theories of Compaqs5 > management covertly plotting the demise of OpenVMS.a  G Productive engagement appears to at least some of us to be a completelyrF failed policy, which makes your point irrelevant.  Though I do tend toJ suspect that most of what many here object to about Compaq can be ascribed8 more to simple incompetence than to active skullduggery.     Not everyone at CompaqK > reads this newsgroup, but when competitors put your postings in from of a H > potential OpenVMS customer - are you (and I do me YOU) helping to sell OpenVMSi. > or helping the customer buy another product?  H I really don't worry much about that, because selling VMS (or some otherK product) is not a goal for me (though I believe it should be much more of aoH goal for Compaq, and if it were I'd happily offer appropriate applause).I I'm simply trying to do my part to force Compaq (since gentler approachesgA haven't worked) to support VMS as it should, and if the threat of L significant sales loss is what it takes to do that then that's no problem at all for me.t   > G > Before you bitch at Compaq's marketing of OpenVMS, take a good, long,fC > honest look at your own marketing of OpenVMS, too.  Remember thate
 word-of-mouthrH > is often some of the strongest and most effective marketing tool, even today.  I I certainly hope so, because that will increase the leverage on Compaq ofr what goes on here.   > 
 > >  - rather? > > > rallyingG > > > against Gartner instead!  If you really, and I mean REALLY, caredt > > > about OpenVMSfI > > >  - you'd be jabbing your barbs at Gartner rather than Mark and Sue.t > >mI > > Well, if you really, and I mean really, cared about OpenVMS, you'd be L > > directing your comments to Compaq upper management rather than here.  So
 > > there. > E > I care about OpenVMS, which I support by action, not just comments.   K Yadda, yadda, yadda.  Sarcasm is apparently lost on you:  my point was that H it may be easy to tell other people how they *should* act, but it's alsoK fairly pointless, since they define their own motives and means, thank you.t  I In the area of active support, I certainly won't try to compete with you,SK but then again your efforts are I suspect at least somewhat related to yourmL livelihood, whereas mine are purely a matter of appreciating the product (inD that it has been completely irrelevant to my work for 15 years now).H Nonetheless, I devoted several months of concentrated effort in Y2K with@ over a dozen others to researching, developing, and presenting aJ comprehensive plan for how to leverage the synergies among Compaq's variedG products (with emphasis on VMS), which I suggest constitutes a bit mored support than 'just comments'.d   ...s  H > Besides making up stories about Compaq trying to covertly kill OpenVMSF > and move everyone to NT by some evil plot with some Gartner cohorts,  L You seem to have confused me with someone else, which raises questions aboutB your understanding of the discussion you're choosing to jump into.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:31:27 -0500i' From: Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>yD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!< Message-ID: <howard-B44155.00312722012002@enews.newsguy.com>  = In article <e565ed03.0201211947.285814f2@posting.google.com>,e-  davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) wrote:-  B > 	I still think he got a bum rap...  Palmer was a CEO that should > have been ousted, but wasn't.   G Palmer was hired to do what he did.  You want to place blame, do so on g the BoD that hired him.3   -- a Howard S ShubsD "Run in circles, scream and shout!"  "I hope you have good backups!"' Aren't there any networked SJFs around?L   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 01:37:12 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>iD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!, Message-ID: <3C4D0889.81D5C31A@videotron.ca>   "David L. Cathey" wrote:8 > > the changes that occurred after Pfeiffer was ousted. > I >         I still think he got a bum rap...  Palmer was a CEO that shoulds > have been ousted, but wasn't.o  N But Palmer had admitted essentially working for Pfeiffer for the 3 years priorK to the takeover announcement.  Those 3 years correcpond to much/most of alloO the divestutures Digital made (stuff that Compaq wasn't interested in having). w  I It was to Pfeiffer's advantage to have Palmer lower the value of Digital,hJ since it make Digital easier to buy. Pfeiffer probbaly figured he would beN given time to fix the broken Digital, but alas, he wasn't given enough time toJ undo the damage done during Palmer's era (but much of that damage may have. been done just to lower the value of Digital).  K >         I've heard what I've heard.  There are some people here that havebB > pissed off people at Compaq.  This is NOT how you work together.  N Has it ever occured to you that some very loyal VMS supporters were pissed offL by local Compaq employees and are reporting their local experiences ? If youC have very good local support from Compaq, you are a very lucky man.s  K > reads this newsgroup, but when competitors put your postings in from of aeP > potential OpenVMS customer - are you (and I do me YOU) helping to sell OpenVMS. > or helping the customer buy another product?    K If people start rumours about VMS' demise and Compaq does not categoricallytL prove those rumours to be false, then it is Compaq' fault. Every company hasM to deal with this type of rumour issue. The big difference here is that thererJ are few disgruntled customers, but the complains are with how Compaq isn'tL maximizing the potential of VMS, allowing it to wither away in a few niches.  O >         Before you bitch at Compaq's marketing of OpenVMS, take a good, long,.Q > honest look at your own marketing of OpenVMS, too.  Remember that word-of-mouth O > is often some of the strongest and most effective marketing tool, even today.w  M That is another problem. If you live in an area where there is no local sales I force that pushed VMS, a city where Compaq reps don't even mention VMS inSM their big customer presentations (or worse, mention it is the past tense), ordL if you've been involved in a DECUS chapter where the then DECrep wanted thatK chapter to drop its focus on VMS because it was dead, you would have a verye different image.  K You are very lucky to still be able to live in a market where VMS is alive.tI When there is no active VMS market in a city, it is very hard to sell VMS J *against* Compaq. You are very lucky if you can work *with* Compaq to helpM make sales. But you should be aware that in some markets just don't push VMS.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:41:44 -0500s, From: "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org>% Subject: Re: GNV Update now availablei1 Message-ID: <tr338.283$PZ4.5219@news.cpqcorp.net>e  G A couple of people have asked about GNV on VAX, so I have made binariesl
 available.  K Bash does not work interactively, however, you can do 'bash -c "<command>"'e orI bash <script>. The problem with interactive use of bash is most likely ino thee# area of the curses or termcap code.s  G The termcap code is implemented in the CRTL supplement on VAX, so it is  probablyH the first place to look. Also, the Vax version use VMS Curses, while the Alphas? version uses BSD Curses. BSD curses are not implemented on Vax.a  L ============================================================================ ==% http://gnv.sourceforge.net/readme.htme   GNV - GNU's Not VMS!  J GNV is an open source, GNU based, Unix environment for VMS. It is intended toG provide the important subset of Unix/Linux/POSIX necessary to port UNIXy software; to VMS. See gnv.sourceforge.net for up to date information..   Getting Started   I GNV relies heavily on the C Run Time Library. The better the CRTL is, the  betterI GNV will function. For that reason, it is best do install the latest CRTLe whicheK is available from http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/.new/openvms.shtml.t IfL you do not wish to install a newer CRTL or you have a Beta CRTL, GNV can use an< non-installed alternate CRTL. See the advanced step section.     Installing GNV  E The distribution is packaged using BZIP2 compression and TAR. You canB download these from:s  
 For Alpha:  7    http://gnv.sourceforge.net/downloads/alpha/bzip2.exe 6    http://gnv.sourceforge.net/downloads/alpha/tar.exe.   For Vax:  5    http://gnv.sourceforge.net/downloads/vax/bzip2.exeO4    http://gnv.sourceforge.net/downloads/vax/tar.exe.    J Define foreign commands at the DCL prompt (do not use symbol bzip or bzip21 since the program uses these for something else):r  !     $bz=="$<bzip2 path>bzip2.exe"l     $tar=="$<tar path>tar.exe"  = To use GNV, download the binaries for all the utilities from:   C For Alpha:  http://gnv.sourceforge.net/downloads/alpha/gnv.tar-bz2.   A For Vax:    http://gnv.sourceforge.net/downloads/vax/gnv.tar-bz2.f  H Create a directory, we will call it GNV_INSTALL and unpack the binaries.       $create/dir [.GNV_INSTALL]     $set def [.GNV_INSTALL]r     $bz -d gnv.tar-bz2     $tar -xvf gnv.tarr     $@[.gnv]setup.com 	     $bash        bash$ ls /gnu/bin.D     ar.exe        chmod.exe     gzip.exe      rm.exe        tail.exeC     as.exe        cp.exe        install.exe   rmdir.exe     tar.exeaE     basename.exe  diff.exe      ls.exe        sed.exe       touch.exe.B     bash.exe      egrep.exe     make.exe      set_exe.com   tr.exeE     bzip2.exe     expr.exe      mkdir.exe     sh.exe        uname.exetB     cat.exe       gawk.exe      mv.exe        sleep.exe     wc.exe6     cc.exe        grep.exe      objdump.exe   stat.exe       bash$ ls /gnu/libe     decc$shr.exe  =     bash$ echo "Welcome to the wonderful world of GNU on VMS"y0     Welcome to the wonderful world of GNU on VMS  F GNV is now installed and ready to go. The rest of this page deals with advancedB configuration and trouble shooting. You can skip it if you are not interested.i  L Note: The VAX implementation of BASH cannot be used interactively, it can beD used to invoke a script (bash <script>) or a single command (bash -cH "<command>"). If you can figure out why it is broken, please contact us.     Advanced Setup  G Now look at setup.com. Setup.com defines the GNU logical to be the samebE directory that the setup.com procedure is found. It also defines somet logicalsL that change the behavior of the CRTL. These are necessary to get the CRTL toF behave as it would on a Unix system. Furture versions of the CRTL will2 eliminate the need for these logicals. Stay tuned.  F It can also be used to make GNV use an alternate CRTL. This is done by copyingcL that CRTL into gnu:[lib] as decc$shr_<version>.exe where <version> is the OS$ version without the period. Then do:       $@[.gnv]setup "BETACRTL"   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jan 2002 16:15:24 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.120519.killspam.00c7 (Wayne Sewell)rJ Subject: i am randy! (was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans. Message-ID: <pPA6N+jCUfL$@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  T In article <3C4C3178.A154F43A@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> writes: > re: standard vs US english.e > P > My prefered phrase that highlights the difficulty of interpreting language is: >  > An aussi asking a yank:V: > 	"Which do you prefer, the fanny ?, or the other side ?" >  > P > Or some american coming up to a girl at a hostel check-in desk and saying in aO > fairly loud voice and smile: "HI I AM RANDY" .... (with the girl having quitee > a smirk).a > > > In a context outside of the usa, it means "hi ! I am horny" 3 > and in the USA, it means "Hi ! my name is Randy".  >   N Yes, we had a computer operator by that name who worked at a remote Australian@ site.  His first few weeks in the country were interesting.  :-)   -- mO ===============================================================================yM Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxt: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)aO ===============================================================================hN Sparky (from Bring It On): "In cheerleading, we throw people in the air.  Fat  	people don't go as high."   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:12:50 +1030e: From: "Barratt, Chris (FMC)" <Chris.Barratt@fmc.sa.gov.au> Subject: Is info-vax workingN Message-ID: <07103702F27FD411ACA30000F808545257CD59@sagemshs001.fmc.sa.gov.au>  H I have not seen any messages from the INFo-vax listserver since Thursday 17/1.f6 Is the list working ok, or is it a problem at my end ?  c Ta,c
 Chris Barrattt   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:52:16 -0700h+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>t  Subject: Re: Is info-vax working' Message-ID: <3C4CA9B0.5090302@mmaz.com>i   Barratt, Chris (FMC) wrote:s  I >I have not seen any messages from the INFo-vax listserver since Thursdaya >17/1.7 >Is the list working ok, or is it a problem at my end ?i >eB I see your's but it appears that the comp.os.vms feed is busted.     Mark???o   Barryd   >  >Ta, >Chris Barratt >n >i   --    @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028t   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:06:27 -0800 0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>  Subject: Re: Is info-vax working, Message-ID: <3C4C82D3.5CADE33B@Mvb.Saic.Com>   Barry Treahy, Jr. wrote: >  > Barratt, Chris (FMC) wrote:U > K > >I have not seen any messages from the INFo-vax listserver since ThursdayW > >17/1.9 > >Is the list working ok, or is it a problem at my end ?H > >cB > I see your's but it appears that the comp.os.vms feed is busted. > 	 > Mark???P >   F The problem is at Chris's end.  His mail server is bouncing all of the mail I send him.  
 Mark Berrymanm   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 02:35:10 GMTt4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>$ Subject: Re: Newbie Help on Security0 Message-ID: <3C4CCEDE.F71014D3@blueyonder.co.uk>   Bob Ceculski wrote:c > X > Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote in message news:<3C4BA2E6.3681C941@rdrop.com>... > > Tim Llewellyn wrote: > > >pL > > > If you are running UCX/TCP/IP Services then you can restrict access onS > > > a per service level to individial IP addresses/subnets, but thats more useful B > > > if you don't trust other users on YOUR side of the firewall. > >iK > > And the sufficiently paranoid will have *no* users on the same firewall,L > > interface as the server(s) that aren't explicitely trusted, i.e., systemG > > managers. And no matter what IP stack, platform or OS, the firewallsI > > should be a separate box from the application server. With luck, yourhK > > f/w can scream for help when it realizes it's been breached, and beforeaI > > it can be silenced.  If it's all on one box, that scream for help mayf > > well be too late.g > >t > I > I don't think so ... w/TCPware and vms security, it wouldn't be easy to2H > spoof thru a packet filter, then thru an ssh telnet session attempt toN > repeatedly try to hack in without security going off immediately and warning > of the intruders attempts ...a  E yeah, why do you need a firewall anyway. It it wasn't for those peskys= windows and unix boes on your LAN you could dispense with it.    with tongue in cheek.e   regards> -- e Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  B  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.h   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jan 2002 22:02:42 GMT0 From: klewis@mitre.xxxxxxxx.org (Keith A. Lewis)5 Subject: Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up! ( Message-ID: <a2i362$n03$1@top.mitre.org>   Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes in article <eCQOHwpkQeUM@eisner.encompasserve.org> dated 3 Jan 2002 09:01:46 -0600:d >In article <BFomiOdVIFNQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: >tM >>    Yes you can rename FILENAME.DAT to FileName.Dat.  I do it all the time.eH >>    I have a command file which does just htat so I can get around NFSH >>    problems (I'm using NFS witin a cluster so my VAX can see my ODS-5 >>    volumes, sigh).m >> lL >>    What you can't do is rename just one version to a different case when K >>    there are multiple versions.  New versions always assume the case of e >>    existing versions. >tG >What is the syntax for renaming all versions of a file to a new case ?pH >RENAME A.B;* a.b;* would be my obvious guess, but I can't make it work.  L There are only 2 things I can think of that would prevent this from working.  F 1.  You forgot to "SET PROCESS/PARSE=EXTENDED", so the target is being converted to uppercase.o  L 2.  There are multiple versions of the file.  RENAME does one at a time, andK if there are any other versions of the new name, the case from that versione+ is copied.  There are two ways around this:C   either     $ PURGE A.Bc     $ RENAME A.B;* a.b;*   or      $ RENAME A.B;* unique.name;*      $ RENAME unique.name;* a.b;*  . --Keith Lewis              klewis@mitre.org.xx> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:54:58 -0500V% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>r1 Subject: Re: Purveyor is superior for VMS - proofv, Message-ID: <3C4C6401.5D380446@videotron.ca>   Martin Vorlaender wrote:+ >> > What is a "dll" in a VMS environment ?  > L > It's a (shared?) executable offering the entry points defined by the ISAPI > interface.  4 Why not use the VMS standard shared images ? (.exe )   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:18:53 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>Y Subject: Re: RDB/ELN (was: Incredibly idiocy in CNN headline financial analysis  of CompaeA Message-ID: <ht038.36979$TC1.3087215@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>u  4 "Glenn Everhart" <Everhart@gce.com> wrote in message! news:3C4C8E6F.97532165@gce.com... I > Last I had heard was that RDB was part of the Oracle purchase; many whou worked< > on it moved across the parking lot to the Oracle building.  L As you may already be aware, RDB and RDB/ELN were not only separate productsI but separate implementations.  The former was implemented by the DEC DBMSlJ group, and the latter an alternative (considerably more compact, which wasJ one reason Cutler wanted it for ELN) implemented primarily by Jim Starkey.L They presented a common interface to the world (the 'DEC Standard Relational0 Interface' - DSRI) but shared little or no code.  G So when Oracle acquired RDB, I don't know whether they acquired RDB/ELNa along with it.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:55:59 -0500a' From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com>dY Subject: Re: RDB/ELN (was: Incredibly idiocy in CNN headline financial analysis of Compaq ' Message-ID: <3C4C8E6F.97532165@gce.com>h  N Last I had heard was that RDB was part of the Oracle purchase; many who worked: on it moved across the parking lot to the Oracle building.  M The Mica story was nothing akin. The claims being rumored were that long code J sequences in NT kernel were identical to Mica antecedants. I have not seenS either, so cannot confirm these rumors. That the Mica sources were not particularlywJ available inside DEC was a real problem. If the rumors are true, access toF the Mica sources would give a tremendous leg up in learning any kernelQ oddities in NT that might not be visible to the driver writer.  Such access could P also facilitate reuse in VMS of NT drivers without needing Microsoft cooperation; and might have other value...presuming the stories were so.o    SI The extent to which one might want to use them for anything else might be"K questionable. One of my friends remarked that Mica was the perfect name for : an OS: flashy and flaky. Make of the remark what you will.  S There was talk circa 1996 also of some software patents VMS had which NT infringed,tQ so the legal arrangements had other issues to hang their hats on besides the Micah migration ones.c     "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: > K > Thanks for that.  That is slightly more detailed than previous versions Is= > had heard.  Nice to hear from the horses mouth so to speak.t >  > Dweeb.7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageo> > news:_RX28.604673$C8.43051674@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > 3 > > "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com> wrote in messagen/ > > news:B4U28.1152$Z77.3275@news.get2net.dk...vN > > > Errr, rumour central has it that the code "walked" from Digital as well,A > > > sort of the same way that MICA code "walked" to Microsloth.h > >kF > > Well, that depends on exactly how the MICA code actually 'walked'. > >rN > > When Jim left DEC, he gave me a magtape with the current state of his workI > > on it in case DEC ever wanted to resurrect it in the future.  He then  > spentrN > > the next year completely recreating the database in C, without recourse toL > > the original code.  The result naturally bore a striking resemblance (inL > > function, not in code, since C was not what the original was written in) > toI > > the original, but Jim had reportedly obtained agreement from DEC whene4 > > leaving that recreating the work was acceptable. > >i
 > > - bill > >o > > >  > > > DweebmN > > > ""Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"" <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>I > > > wrote in message news:00A083BB.61131E2E@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU...oA > > > > In article <3C487A25.D70B4E4C@mail.com>, "C.W.Holeman II"  > > <cwhii@mail.com>
 > > > writes:s > > > > >John Smith wrote:
 > > > > >>K > > > > >> Digital would have been far better off taking Rdb and spining itt > into > > aeJ > > > > >> public company with an IPO, and retaining a non-controlling 49% > > > interest.n	 > > > > > ? > > > > >As I understand it, DEC kept RDB/ELN. Where is it now?  > > > >gJ > > > > For the design, if not the actual code, check out InterBase (which > > Borland H > > > > got when it bought the corpse of Ashton-Tate, which had acquired
 > > Starkey's K > > > > company Interbase (formerly Groton Database Systems) when it needed  > someH > > > > non-PC player for because dBASE wasn't going to do it, and which	 > BorlandeI > > > > couldn't figure out how to sell either, so now it's Open Source).l > > > >D > > > > -- Alane > > > >  > > > >n > > > >  > > >  > >oN > ============================================================================	 > > > === 8 > > > >  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUG > > > >  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  > > > 650/926-3056I > > > >  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CAs > > > 94309-0210 > > > >r > > >i > >eN > ============================================================================	 > > > ===2 > > > >0 > > >r > > >n > > >o > >k > >k   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:51:42 -05002' From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com>eY Subject: Re: RDB/ELN (was: Incredibly idiocy in CNN headline financial analysis of Compaqo' Message-ID: <3C4C9B7E.3596E95F@gce.com>    Neither do I. Good point.a     Bill Todd wrote: > 6 > "Glenn Everhart" <Everhart@gce.com> wrote in message# > news:3C4C8E6F.97532165@gce.com... K > > Last I had heard was that RDB was part of the Oracle purchase; many whob > worked> > > on it moved across the parking lot to the Oracle building. > N > As you may already be aware, RDB and RDB/ELN were not only separate productsK > but separate implementations.  The former was implemented by the DEC DBMS=L > group, and the latter an alternative (considerably more compact, which wasL > one reason Cutler wanted it for ELN) implemented primarily by Jim Starkey.N > They presented a common interface to the world (the 'DEC Standard Relational2 > Interface' - DSRI) but shared little or no code. > I > So when Oracle acquired RDB, I don't know whether they acquired RDB/ELNe > along with it. >  > - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:40:56 GMTe0 From: "Mark Buda" <budam-N_O-S_P_A_MM@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: RMS Journalings< Message-ID: <sy238.5016$Xw4.1198941@news1.news.adelphia.net>  / "george" <go4gustoo@yahoo.com> wrote in messagen7 news:63a3620e.0201181416.3b2899d0@posting.google.com...G  E > Can someone share their experience on how safe it is to turn on RMSa- > journaling for flat files? VMS ver 7.1-1h2.h  % What problem are you trying to solve?/   --  	 Mark Buda:   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 02:02:57 GMTn, From: "John Polcari" <JPolcari@Mediaone.net>0 Subject: Re: show system reports wrong NODE NAME= Message-ID: <lL338.22878$Ln2.5941500@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>b   Pat,  4 If you are cloning one box from another, you have toK make sure you change the node name and node address in modparams.dat; which E is located in the sys$system:modparams.dat on your system disk. Afterl3 changing the name and address in modparams.dat, runtI @sys$update:autogen savparams setparams nofeedback, reboot the system and2 you should be all set.  1 To figure out the number address, use the formula.   area*1024+number   example:   7.53   7*1024+53 =1084A   Cheers,b John    B "pat saunders" <pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk> wrote in message6 news:bc0e3bd8.0201101306.1599270@posting.google.com... > hi,eG >   When I log onto a vax box, it reports the correct NODE-NAME as wellxE > as when I run net$configure AND show exec status etc but when I run E > the command SHOW SYSTEM it reports the wrong NODE-NAME, We recently @ > restored from another vax box so are wondering how to fix this
 > problem,	 > thanks,. > pat    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 18:34:33 -0000e3 From: "Malcolm" <malcolm@neverness.freeserve.co.uk>aY Subject: Re: Sv: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise ofcompaq ) / Message-ID: <a2hmq8$cbe$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>N  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:9gho4u4a4t1lgebggb9p4bcd33jic1taug@4ax.com...G > On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:27:36 +0000, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:o >  > >AI > >Is it Tesco who have decided that Spotted Dick is too 'rude' for theirn7 > >shelves, and have changed the name on the packaging?c >< > Had forgotten that news item@ > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1508000/1508647.stm >kD > Personally I suspect that was a marketing gimmick. Spotted Richard	 > indeed!t >s  I I saw it last week in Tesco, and it was still "Spotted Dick"... I believe E they have dropped the name change. Smells like a marketing gimmick...   * Is Spotted Dick a cake? Or a meringue? ;-)  , ObVMS: Tesco do sell shampoo for your VAX :)  	 -Malcolm.u   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 03:24:53 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>r Subject: Re: TYPE suggestion& Message-ID: <3C4CDC90.45C5608@fsi.net>   JF Mezei wrote:. >  > Dean Woodward wrote:K > > Not to bring up the thread that should not be named, but what's the usehL > > of a decent scripting language if people won't use it?  In this case, ifH > > he needs chars 200-600 out of a file, he's probably doing some other > > processing anyway... > N > No. i just want a quick look at certain log files in an easy to read format.  H Not sure what might qualify as "easy to read" if he lines are that long.  D If you're looking for something specific, might SEARCH/KEY=... be of	 some use?o  L > Or type data files to see parts of it (for instance to ensure that a fieldR > somewhere in the middle or towards the end if properly filled by the application  = I'd be more likely to use DUMP/RECORD=(start=x,count=n) for a) representative sample.   YMMV, as always.   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:58:22 GMTs From: dittman@dittman.net= Subject: VAXBI DSSI?: Message-ID: <xp_28.1082$ST3.395183@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net>  + Was there a DSSI controller for the BI bus?8   -- @ Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.nett= Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:02:10 -0800=+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>=@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)V Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201211959590.18724-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  % On 20 Jan 2002, Paul Repacholi wrote:e@ > Am I right that there was only one Full Moby (256K) PDP-6? One > of the Stanford ones?   G The MIT AI Lab PDP-6 had a full moby (Fabritek), an unheard-of thing ataG the time.  I don't know if Stanford's PDP-6 ever did; at the time I wasrA there (starting in 1977) it only had the original 64K memory box.?  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc-F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------   Date: 21 JAN 2002 20:17:52 GMT4 From: karcher@vranix.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)H Subject: Re: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D6 Message-ID: <21JAN02.20175227@vranix.waisman.wisc.edu>  > In a previous article, Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@compaq.com> wrote:   ->Carl,v -> eJ ->This problem was solved by VMS Engineering. Please contact your favorite  ->support center to get the fix. -> c ->Guy   . It doesn't look like the fix is available yet.& Here is the response I received today:   ..	 SOLUTION:-  L The problem has been solved in V7.2-2, however, the fix did not make it into the V7.3 distribution.     WORKAROUND::  @ Restore system disk to status before installing VMS721_SYS-V1100    	 SOLUTION:a  I New SECURITY.EXE remedial images for V7.2-1 and V7.2-1H1 are being built.y  I New SECURITY.EXE remedial images for V7.3 are expected to be available ini the VMS73_SYS-V0300 kit.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:17:44 GMTs) From: rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) H Subject: Re: VMS721_SYS-V1100: Caution do not apply with Pathworks V6.0D2 Message-ID: <3c4ca8b5.1903590919@news.wcc.govt.nz>   Thankyou for the post.  D I'd planned various updates for this coming Sunday, one of them this very patch.u@ Mind you I'm also planning to upgrade Pathworks from 6.0D to 6.1  D We also only use the External Authentication images for Pathworks on the Alphas.t  C So, I'll see what breaks what.... at least I know what the "fix" isr ahead of the break.f   Rob.  B On 19 JAN 2002 19:50:31 GMT, karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) wrote:   E >After applying patch VMS721_SYS-V1100 (to an Alphaserver 1200 5/533)dH >and rebooting, PWRK$LMSRV.EXE (from Pathworks V6.0D) crashed the system >with: >pB >  "INVSECURESTATE, Invalid state detected by SECURITY subsystem"  >e' >shortly after starting up. The PC was:d >.& >	NSA$DEREFERENCE_RIGHTS_CHAIN_C+0008C >t, >This was repeatable (same thing next time). >uI >After renaming the SECURITY.EXE_OLD and SECURITY_MON.EXE_OLD to *.EXE in G >SYS$LOADABLE_IMAGES and rebooting the crash no longer occurred. We had I >previously installed VMS721_SYS-V1000 so the problem was introduced with C >V11 of this patch. The problem has been reported to CSC (Pathworkss! >handed it off to the VMS group).  >pE >VMS721_SYS-V1100 was one of 14 patches I applied in a single PRODUCT C >INSTALL session followed by a single reboot. I've always done thiswG >(except for one patch that said not too) and never had a problem. ThisaG >time it was an example of the risks of applying more than one patch atAI >the same time. In this case the bugcheck code pretty much pointed to the H >SECURITY*.EXE images (and a search on DSNlink confirmed it) so recoveryE >was fairly simple. Next time I may not be so lucky (but I had a good-	 >backup).-   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:17:58 GMTx) From: martin.hunt@inl.co.nz (Martin Hunt)e/ Subject: Re: What has happened to HELP SPECIFY?D6 Message-ID: <3c4c9300.9072265@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz>  B On 17 Jan 2002 04:34 CST, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) wrote:  g >In article <3c45f3fe.266167799@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz>, martin.hunt@inl.co.nz (Martin Hunt) writes...aE >}The topic says it all, really. I upgraded from V7.1 to V7.3 on VAX,.D >}and have just discovered that HELP SPECIFY has gone. When did thisC >}disappear (V7.2 or V7.3), and why? I always found this useful for F >}checking out the syntax of date and time (particularly delta times), >}for example. >} t >}---n
 >}Martin Hunt  >t >Check out HELP DCL_Tips.   C Thanks - that looks like what I was looking for. But why change theuC name? Or why not at least put a reference to the new location undero HELP hints?l  D This looks like something you'd expect with Microsoft - the locationA of things changes from version to version just for the fun of it.    ---n Martin Huntl Systems Administratork Independent Newspapers Limited
 Wellington New Zealando   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMTv0 From: geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff McCaughan")D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The2 Message-ID: <HJ038.1329$Lv.178060@news.xtra.co.nz>  & JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote:  K > Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very closea< > relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?  G No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North American- that is close to crumpets.  P > Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are also related' > to the crumpet/english muffin family.v  D Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well,@ but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but in@ the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of the% UK pronounce it the NZ way as well...n  < Then there's pikelets, which are rather like small pancakes.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:40:34 +1300s# From: Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org>cD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The> Message-ID: <bruce-7CC8AD.12403422012002@news.paradise.net.nz>  3 In article <HJ038.1329$Lv.178060@news.xtra.co.nz>, s1 geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff McCaughan") wrote:w  ( > JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote: > H > > Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very 	 > > closeu> > > relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ? > I > No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North AmericanM > that is close to crumpets.  & Waffles, but with bubbles inside them?   -- Bruce   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 20:40:24 -0500y2 From: Roland Hutchinson <rolands.spamtrap@usa.net>D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The4 Message-ID: <a2ifqg$veup1$1@ID-99522.news.dfncis.de>  4 On Monday 21 January 2002 05:36 pm, Geoff McCaughan  <geoffm@spam.hormel.com>wrote:   > Can't think of anything Northa% > American that is close to crumpets.m  F The closest thing would be crumpets.  They are not completely unknown 8 here, and are (or were) even found at some supermarkets.   --  A Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.   A NB mail to rolands.spamtrap@usa.net is heavily filtered to remove.8 spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:58:35 -0700e+ From: "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc@primenet.com>oD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The4 Message-ID: <a2ikg4$ptk$1@node21.cwnet.roc.gblx.net>  8 It seems inevitable that any thread cross-posted between3 a VMS group and comp.arch, or between comp.arch andh; alt.folklore.computers, quickly degenerates into OT drivel,l; perpetuated by a small community of self-absorbed halfwits.o4 Apparently, these halfwits don't know how to set the+ follow-up header appropriately. Well, I do.  --3 Dennis O'Connor                   dmoc@primenet.comb3 We don't become a rabid dog to destroy a rabid dog.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:19:29 GMTh, From: liam@nessie.xinqu.net (Liam Greenwood)Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of c 2 Message-ID: <slrna4p15b.a7v.liam@nessie.xinqu.net>  1 On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:53:52 +0000, Chris Hedley r# <cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk> wrote:d. >According to  <greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk>:G >What's a "bun," though?  Being from the Northern Wastelands of the UK,bG >I call anything that's bready and spheroid a bun, but in the Deep Sarf@F >they keep chopping and changing between "bun" and "roll" according toH >a secretive and arcane set of rules, and pretend that they have no ideaH >what you're talking about if you inadvertently choose the wrong word to; >describe your intended nutritional item.  ("Roll," indeed)s >h  < 	Well, as it seems to work here... buns are roughly spheroid  and rolls roughly cylindrical.    8 	Oh, and NZ scones == Biscuits in the USofA, NZ biscuits are cookies.  
 	Cheers, Liam    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:41:05 GMTe0 From: geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff McCaughan")Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of ce2 Message-ID: <5O038.1331$Lv.178379@news.xtra.co.nz>  - Liam Greenwood (liam@nessie.xinqu.net) wrote:g3 > On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:53:52 +0000, Chris Hedley D% > <cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk> wrote:h0 > >According to  <greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk>:I > >What's a "bun," though?  Being from the Northern Wastelands of the UK,SI > >I call anything that's bready and spheroid a bun, but in the Deep Sarf4H > >they keep chopping and changing between "bun" and "roll" according toJ > >a secretive and arcane set of rules, and pretend that they have no ideaJ > >what you're talking about if you inadvertently choose the wrong word to= > >describe your intended nutritional item.  ("Roll," indeed)  > >a > > > 	Well, as it seems to work here... buns are roughly spheroid" > and rolls roughly cylindrical.    E Well I'd have said that buns tend to be cake-like, and anything smalln and made of bread is a roll.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:47:27 GMTA' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>eY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise of compaq  ) Message-ID: <3C4C6846.1B1A2F51@yahoo.com>n   Chris Hedley wrote:w > / > According to  <greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk>:sI > > It's amusing to go to France where most people can speak a reasonably I > > useful amount of English. But don't! If I blather them with enough of=J > > my terrible French (I have a good accent, I just can't remember any ofI > > the words) eventually even the stubborn ones give up and ask "what doe > > you want?".S > H > My experience is that if I try to speak to them in their native tongueI > (and my expertise in that field is limited anyway) they simply start to K > speak much faster and introduce a larger number of obtuse colloquialisms, J > then adopt the "arms folded and nose stuck in the air" expression whilst= > they wait for me to leave.  Nearly as bad as Southerners...   7 Well, if true that is a definite difference from FrenchaA Canadians.  There, if you make an initial attempt to speak broken : French they usually appreciate it and switch to English toA accomodate you.  Provided you are not Canadian in the first placeg@ (or don't appear to be), when they consider that you bloody well; should be able to speak French.  An area where USAnians ares treated better than natives :-)    -- c@ Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.s=    (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified)y0    mailto:uce@ftc.gov  (for spambots to harvest)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:19:00 +1300o# From: Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org>tY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The demise       of compn> Message-ID: <bruce-AE4653.09190022012002@news.paradise.net.nz>  6 In article <3C4C3015.840DE022@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei  <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote:   G > > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:27:53 GMT, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>M
 > > sprachen:  > > G > > >I keep telling people that English muffins are neither English nor  > > >muffins :-) >  > K > Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very closee< > relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?   No, not at all!i    I > Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are also S. > related to the crumpet/english muffin family  C OK, from a New Zealand perspective (which I imagine is the same as  " Australian and English anyway...):  H Pikelets are just small pancakes, mostly flour with a little egg, milk, E sugar and baking powder (some people do pancakes with baking powder, e" some don't), cooked on a hotplate.  G Crumpets are similar to pikelets, but have *far* more butter (fat) and nH sugar and far more baking soda to make lots of bubbles.  Normally eaten B smothered with melted butter or honey or golden syrup (which is a  lighter form of treacle).u  G Scones also have huge amounts of sugar and butter -- about 1 sugar : 1 hF butter : 6 flour -- and just a little baking soda.  They are baked in 	 the oven.+  G Muffins are essentially bread dough.  Unlike the others they use yeast sH rather than baking powder, but unlike normal bread they are cooked on a  hotplate rather than baked.g     Hope I got all that right :-)g   -- Bruce   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:47:29 GMTg' From: CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>uY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The demise       of comp ) Message-ID: <3C4C6B60.6DE96F47@yahoo.com>    Chris Hedley wrote:n > / > According to  <greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk>:eG > > They are muffins. American muffins are buns! And the ones I buy aree > > always English.c > H > What's a "bun," though?  Being from the Northern Wastelands of the UK,H > I call anything that's bready and spheroid a bun, but in the Deep SarfG > they keep chopping and changing between "bun" and "roll" according totI > a secretive and arcane set of rules, and pretend that they have no ideapI > what you're talking about if you inadvertently choose the wrong word tos< > describe your intended nutritional item.  ("Roll," indeed)  @ Depends on context.  As she is spoke around here, often one of a9 pair of buttocks. (as distiguished from bullocks).  Often > intimately connected with a roll, which is a physical action. A Once more, the precision of the English language rears its twisty  little head.   -- e@ Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@XXXXworldnet.att.net);    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems. =    (Remove "XXXX" from reply address. yahoo works unmodified)-0    mailto:uce@ftc.gov  (for spambots to harvest)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 02:51:11 GMTu4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The demise       of compd0 Message-ID: <3C4CD2B9.3376B5DC@blueyonder.co.uk>   Chris Hedley wrote:  > / > According to  <greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk>: G > > They are muffins. American muffins are buns! And the ones I buy are  > > always English.. > H > What's a "bun," though?  Being from the Northern Wastelands of the UK,H > I call anything that's bready and spheroid a bun, but in the Deep SarfG > they keep chopping and changing between "bun" and "roll" according to.I > a secretive and arcane set of rules, and pretend that they have no idea I > what you're talking about if you inadvertently choose the wrong word top< > describe your intended nutritional item.  ("Roll," indeed) >  > Chris.  A Buns are sweet, rolls are not, don't they teach you that up there-   multiple smilies   regards    --   Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk  i  C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of  ! my employers or service provider.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:39:42 GMTV0 From: geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff McCaughan")X Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of   compaq )2 Message-ID: <OM038.1330$Lv.178336@news.xtra.co.nz>  + Robert Knowles (knowles.dr@home.com) wrote:- > < > Or the expression "I'm stuffed" after eating a large meal. > 3 > Means an entirely different thing to Australians.V  E Probably would be quite well understood by most Australians actually,.> though I do remember an incident of confusion when an American2 announced that some circuit boards were 'stuffed'.  6 Then there's the potenial for confusion with 'root'...   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:30:30 GMTk0 From: geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff McCaughan")W Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of  compaq )t2 Message-ID: <aE038.1328$Lv.177839@news.xtra.co.nz>  # greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote:s > B > God Americans don't half worry about what people think. And it'sD > normal for politicians to use sentences that nearly mean the exactH > opposite of what they're really saying. You're evolving pretty quickly > towards Newspeak.h  I Well Americans already say stuff like "I could care less", when I *think*n! they mean "I couldn't care less"..   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:35:03 -0800S< From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq ) co ) Message-ID: <3C4C9797.AE2D0A35@intel.com>-   JF Mezei wrote:    > re: standard vs US english.h >iP > My prefered phrase that highlights the difficulty of interpreting language is: >s > An aussi asking a yank:nA >         "Which do you prefer, the fanny ?, or the other side ?"g  >     Totally off-topic (for c.o.v) but having a great time! :-)  A     I understand the "Randy" reference below, and could even makeY@ a plausible guess at the varied meanings of "rest" in one of theA follow-ups, but for a poor, uninitiated yank, could someone offeruB a US "translation" of the "Australian" example above?  Read from aB US perspective, it's either a far too intimate query or completely misunderstood!  :-O :-)e       Thanks, Keno --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.041 ************************