0 INFO-VAX	Tue, 22 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 42      Contents:& Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"!& Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"!: Re: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMS: Re: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement# Re: Advanced Server 7.3 - exploded. & Alphaserver 1000 - Installing "wheels"9 Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows! 9 Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows! P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DECO Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC P Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC P Buns, cakes and crumpets [was Re: Younger recruits versus experiencedveterans ( P Buns, cakes, crumpets and now teacakes [was Re: Younger recruits versusexperiencP Re: Buns, cakes, crumpets and now teacakes [was Re: Younger recruits versusexper& Re: C++ appears to be available online& Re: C++ appears to be available online& Re: C++ appears to be available online/ Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse! / Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse! / Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse! / Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse!  Re: ClipArt of VAX equipment Re: ClipArt of VAX equipment RE: ClipArt of VAX equipment$ Compact disk recordable drive on VMSP Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses   allcredibiP Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses  allcredibilP Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses  allcredibilP Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses  allcredibilP compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibility!)P Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibiliP Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibiliP Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibiliP Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibiliP Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibili$ Configuring Dec net over serial port( Re: Configuring Dec net over serial port( Re: Configuring Dec net over serial port( Re: Configuring Dec net over serial portP Cooking in Salem [was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( wasThe ! Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker) ! Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker) ! Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker) ! Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker) ! RE: DCL "compiler"? (not checker) ! Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker) ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!  GETJPI under TCPIP V5.0 - ECO 3 1 Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  Re: https client apiE Re: i am randy! (was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans E Re: i am randy! (was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans E laws (was: RE: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows!) ( RE: Making bootable images from VMS disk( Re: Making bootable images from VMS disk( Re: Making bootable images from VMS disk
 MOZILLA 0.9.7 , Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up! Que Manager P Re: RDB/ELN (was: Incredibly idiocy in CNN headline financial analysis of CompaqP the art of the possible (was: RE: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professionalexams for 0 The Register says Northern Light has a new owner Time Sync Software Re: triple boot , Re: TYPE/TAIL question (fixed record length)7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS) & Re: What has happened to HELP SPECIFY? Writing COM files  Re: Writing COM files  Re: Writing COM files ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The       demise       oP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The       demise       oP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The       demise       oP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The demise       of comp: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was TheD Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise ofP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of     compaq O Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of   compaq ) M Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq ) M Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq )   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 07:25:58 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) / Subject: Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"! ; Message-ID: <55f85d77.0201220725.956bea@posting.google.com>   m bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0201210722.7a1b8f49@posting.google.com>... N > Sounds like any os written in "c" should be avoided ... which means use vms!  E Umm, I like C, actually *really* like it - used it quite a lot, if it = were not for C I'd be using BLISS more - they are both great.   G Yes, doing things with strings sucks in C (VMS BASIC is one of the best , languages I have seen for handling strings).  B I also like Java (used it a bit a couple of years ago - it is alsoH very good at handling strings). I'm not totally keen on C++, and I plainE don't like PERL - tried to make friends with it, however don't regard  it in any way as friendly.  H Very good code can be written in C (very bad code can also be written in6 C, even worse code can be written in Macro/assembler).  G The problem is not C - string descriptors can be made to work very well B under DEC/Compaq C. If it upsets you, simply avoid any CRTL stringH handling functions and stick to OpenVMS LIB$, STR$, etc, when you use C.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:19:47 -0500 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> / Subject: Re: "C" written os's spell "disaster"! 1 Message-ID: <Keh38.313$PZ4.6358@news.cpqcorp.net>   L There is nothing "wrong" with using the C string routine libraries - just asJ long as interfaces that are not "trusted" make sure that they do the rightG thing when storing and copying strings.  That can be as simple as using = strncpy (if truncation is OK), or checking the string length.    Patrick Young wrote in message2 <55f85d77.0201220725.956bea@posting.google.com>...4 >bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message9 news:<d7791aa1.0201210722.7a1b8f49@posting.google.com>... J >> Sounds like any os written in "c" should be avoided ... which means use vms! > F >Umm, I like C, actually *really* like it - used it quite a lot, if it> >were not for C I'd be using BLISS more - they are both great. > H >Yes, doing things with strings sucks in C (VMS BASIC is one of the best- >languages I have seen for handling strings).  > C >I also like Java (used it a bit a couple of years ago - it is also I >very good at handling strings). I'm not totally keen on C++, and I plain F >don't like PERL - tried to make friends with it, however don't regard >it in any way as friendly.  > I >Very good code can be written in C (very bad code can also be written in 7 >C, even worse code can be written in Macro/assembler).  > H >The problem is not C - string descriptors can be made to work very wellC >under DEC/Compaq C. If it upsets you, simply avoid any CRTL string I >handling functions and stick to OpenVMS LIB$, STR$, etc, when you use C.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:43:24 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> C Subject: Re: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <M7d38.2729$Okf.1146@news2.bloor.is>  E which reminds me....but first a disclaimer....this is not Politically , Correct, but mathematics is mathematics.....     Xeno's Paradox Revisited  H An engineer and a mathematician were walking through a building one day.K Upon passing an open door they observed a beautiful naked woman standing at , the far side of the room beyond the doorway.  L She sees them as well, and calls out to them: "If you want me I'm yours. ButE there is one condition - you must approach me by walking one-half the : distance between the door and me with each step you take."  K The mathematician pauses a moments and then says, "If we halve the distance 9 between us with each step we take, we'll never reach you,  asymptotically-speaking."   K The engineer replied, "That may be true, but we'll get close enough for all  practical purposes."    & Engineering - the art of the possible.              6 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4016CE883@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. ..  E A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He  reduced altitude ' and spotted a man on the ground  below. & He descended a bit more and   shouted,F "Excuse me, can  you help me?  I promised a friend I would meet him an) hour  ago,  but I don't know where I am." G "You are in a hot air balloon hovering  approximately 30 feet above the F ground.  You are between 40 and 41  degrees north latitude and betweenF 59 and  60 degrees west longitude."  Replied the man below.  "You must7 be an engineer or an accountant," said  the balloonist. C "You're right," replied the man on the ground, "How did  you know?" G "Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically E correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the F fact is I am still lost.  Frankly, you've not been much help  so far."  5 "You must be in Management." responded the man below. E "I  am," replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?" "Well," said G the  man on the ground, "you don't know where you are or where  you are E going. You have risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot D air. You  made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and youF expect people beneath  you to solve your problems. The fact is you areA in exactly the same position you  were in before we met, but now,  somehow, it's my  fault."    Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Compaq Canada Corp.  Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----( From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com] Sent: January 21, 2002 3:54 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com C Subject: Re: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMS      Sue,  ? Please pass this along to your legal dept. so they can make the  appropriate > changes to the course descriptions and designations in Canada.  B They can contact the following professional licencing body for the rules: Professional Engineers Ontario 25 Sheppard Avenue West  Toronto, Ontario Canada   M2N 6S6 Phone: (416) 224-1100   2 Save yourselves the lawyers bills and court costs.    ? In the US, the term 'Engineer' can be, and is used, in a rather D fast-'n'-loose way. Generally accepted to be somebody who designs or creates D something in traditional engineering disciplines, or in the field ofC software development, someone who deals with numerical methods [not G accounting :-) ] in the financial services field, or the guy who drives  the  train.  @ However, only the person who has P.E. after their name is a true	 engineer.     G The term 'Engineer' is a legally protected concept/title in Canada. One  has B to be a graduate of an accredited engineering school in one of the accepted> disciplines (mechanical, civil, aerospace, mining, geological,? metallurgical, civil, industrial, electrical, etc...), and then  certified by the D appropriate licencing body after having had suitable work experienceF post-graduation.   P.Eng is the official designation. This is codified in law.  F The Canadian licensing bodies regularly slap Microsoft, Cisco, Compaq,= and anyone else who tries to use the term 'engineer' in their  designations or advertising.     E BTW, in Canada the terms MCSE, CNE, etc... may not be expanded - they  are C just meaningless collections of letters, even if the holder of said 0 designation IS a licenced Professional Engineer.    - Your mileage in other jurisdictions may vary.         = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message , news:lwJ%7.593$5Y4.15922@news.cpqcorp.net...E > North America folks who maintain the web pages have yet to post the  betaB > exams on their beta page. The 436 and 450 beta exams are live at	 Prometric ; > Test Centers as indicated on the Testing Information page G > (http://www.compaq.com/training/2023.html), which also provides links  to the E > Exam Preparation Guides. See bottom of table on Testing Information  page > ? > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message . > news:7en_7.369$5Y4.10466@news.cpqcorp.net... > > Newsgroup, > > E > > I just received this, you will have to go to the web site for the E > > attachments that are mentioned in this email.  I have no idea why  its  > double< > > spaced again.  This will be on web sites later this week > >  > > Sue  > > B > > ______________________________________________________________ > > * > > To: OpenVMS Professionals and Managers > > ; > > From: Compaq Accredited Professional Program - HPS Team  > > 3 > > Re: Recruitment of OpenVMS Beta Exam Candidates  > >  > > Important: > > @ > > Please act on this request immediately to ensure April, 2002 availability > of > > live exams! @ > > Please distribute this announcement to OpenVMS professionals everywhere.  > >  > > Greetings, > > E > > The Compaq High Performance Server group (HPS) has launched betas  for  two H > > new Compaq Accredited Professional exams that support the OpenVMS V7	 > Systems G > > Engineer and AlphaServer/OpenVMS V7 ASE certification designations.  The  > > exams are: > > @ > > OpenVMS V7 Advanced Administration, Performance, and Support	 (011-450)  > > / > > OpenVMS V7 Network Administration (011-436)  > > C > > The beta exams are available, now, at Prometric Testing Centers 
 worldwide.G > > The final "live" exams will be available at CAT Global Test Centers  in > EMEA, @ > > as well as Prometric, following completion of the beta test. > > 7 > > Take a free beta exam. win an iPAQ color pocket PC!  > > H > > All individuals who complete (pass or fail) one or both of the above betaD > > exams before February 15, 2002 will qualify to win an iPAQ color pocket PCE > > (model H3650). At the close of the beta period for each exam, theV HPSeG > > certification program manager will randomly draw one name from eachs of theiF > > two beta test groups and award the lucky participants an iPAQ (see lotteryfH > > terms and conditions below). So take the test(s) for free and take a > chanceC > > at winning an iPAQ. If you do not pass, then you will receive a  vouchers toC > > take the live exam for free. EMEA candidates will receive a CATi Global> > > voucher. All other candidates receive a Prometric voucher. > >  > > Time frame > >sB > > The beta exams are available now and will run to approximately February > 15,lC > > 2002. The target end date, which may change based on enrollmentd figures,B > > marks the end of the data collection period for the beta exam.
 CandidatesG > > may continue to take the exam beyond the end date, since beta examsd are, > noteC > > retired until the live exams are available. We're expecting thec exams to > go > > live in April 2002.  > >wB > > Register now for one or both of the betas, or identify several@ > > colleagues/employees in your organization who are willing to participate.H > > Please encourage candidates to take the exam before February 15. The onlyE > > individuals who will qualify for the iPAQ lotteries are those whor take thec+ > > exam(s) on or before February 15, 2002.a > >n# > > Who should take the beta exams?a > >tC > > The beta exams are intended for OpenVMS Systems Administrators,r SystemA > > Engineers, Service Engineers, and Pre-Sales Technical Support 	 EngineersrE > > within Compaq, Compaq partner, and Compaq customer organizations.e ThenE > > expertise and experience levels of beta candidates may vary, from+ thoser > who B > > have advanced OpenVMS system skills to those who have basic orH > > intermediate-level skills. See the Exam Preparation Guides (EPGs) at> > > http://www.compaq.com/certification/na/betaexam.html for a descriptions of" > > the competencies being tested. > >pC > > OpenVMS professionals within Compaq, Compaq partner, and CompaqX customerF > > organizations should be recruited, as well as OpenVMS instructors. This > mixeG > > of candidates is critical to evaluate the exam questions and defineG ap > > passing score. > > @ > > Because a range of expertise is required for the beta, it is expected thatH > > some candidates will not pass. However, candidates who take the beta willG > > become familiar with the areas where they are skilled and the areas  wherel > > they need development. > >p' > > How to prepare for the beta exam(s). > >eH > > Before you register and take an exam, review the content of the exam ando > thecG > > applicable training or documentation. This information is availableo in theeD > > Exam Preparation Guide for each exam. The beta exams are "closed book"l. > > exams. No reference materials are allowed. > >p > > Exam Preparation Guidesc > >iE > > The beta Exam Preparation Guides (EPGs) are attached and are alsos locatedt > atH > > http://www.compaq.com/certification/na/betaexam.html. It's important to) > > review the EPG before taking an exam.s > >u > > What is a beta exam? > > F > > A beta exam allows us to test the integrity of questions before we develop  > aiA > > final exam. After candidates take a beta exam, we analyze thec results  andcD > > the candidates' comments to select the best questions, construct > equivalent5 > > forms of the exam, and establish a passing score.S > >l' > > Benefits to candidates and managers  > >a% > > There is no cost for a beta exam!e > >tB > > Candidates who do not pass a beta exam have a better chance of passinga theVH > > live exam, since they see all the questions in the exam pool. During thecD > > live exam, candidates see only selected questions from the pool. > > H > > Candidates become familiar with the areas where they are skilled and the  > > areas where they need work.  > >nF > > A candidate who does not pass a beta exam can retake the live exam at nos > > additional cost. > >sD > > The passing score for an exam is defined several weeks after the betaE > > concludes. Candidates who pass a beta exam are recorded as havingg passed > thesF > > live exam and do not have to take it. (The test center may provide= > > candidates with a record of their beta results, which thee
 certification ? > > program office may require, so retain any record provided.)h > >  > > Time commitment  > > G > > The exam (and administration time) can take up to 4 hours dependingL on theaF > > number of questions being tested. Travel time to and from the test center > is > > additional.  > >n > > Registeringo > >dG > > To register for the exam, call the Prometric Testing Center nearesti to you E > > and request the Compaq 450 and/or 436 exam (see titles above), or  register) > > online at http://2test.com/index.jsp.s > >uD > > Please register as soon as possible. Since beta exams tend to be long,e? > > Prometric may have difficulty scheduling blocks of time fora
 individualD > > candidates. You will need the following information to register: > >e* > > Compaq badge number (Compaq employees) > > H > > Social Security Number (If you do not have a Social Security Number, then > anD > > ID number will be assigned. (Note: You must use this same number when& > > registering for all future exams.) > >e > > Company Name > >  > > Tutorial > > H > > Before you begin an exam, you can take a tutorial at the test center toD > > familiarize yourself with the details of taking online Prometric exams. IfF > > you have not taken an online Prometric exam, you are encouraged to take > thisG > > tutorial. It will help you take the exam more efficiently. Time forf takingH > > the tutorial (approximately 10 to 15 minutes) is not counted against thee# > > time you have to take the exam.  > >a+ > > Comments on the exam / Candidate surveye > >eD > > After you complete the exam, you can make comments on questions: theirTC > > accuracy, appropriateness to audience, etc. You also see surveyT	 questionsfH > > before the exam. The survey is designed to help the exam team define the C > > final exam forms for the target audiences, so please answer thes surveyF > > questions accurately. Taking the survey does not count against the time > youf > > have to take the exam. > >-. > > iPAQ color PC lottery terms and conditions > > @ > > The following terms and conditions have been established for > administration > > of the iPAQ lotteries. > >s7 > > To qualify for the iPAQ lottery, beta participants:. > >eE > > Must have gained experience selling, supporting, or using OpenVMS9 systems2 > as? > > a system administrator, systems engineer, service engineer, 	 pre-salesb= > > technical support engineer, instructor, student, or otherr OpenVMS-relatedu	 > > role.e > >tD > > Must possess at least basic OpenVMS system skills and knowledge. > > G > > Must complete the 450 and/or 436 beta exam(s) on or before February  15,a > 2002+ > > at an authorized Prometric Test Center.  > >(C > > Must attempt to answer all questions presented during the exam.n > >iC > > Must complete the candidate survey that is presented before thee exam.k > >e@ > > Must provide appropriate contact information during the exam registration > > process. > >CF > > Candidates can take one or both beta exams, but cannot take either exam > more% > > than once within the beta period.n > >cF > > Candidates who take both betas are eligible to participate in both- > > lotteries, but cannot win more than once.n > >sF > > Prizes are iPAQ color pocket PCs (model H3650). If unavailable, anD > > equivalent value prize will be substituted. No cash substitution will ber > > offered. > >rF > > If at least 50 participants have not taken a beta exam by February 15,  > 2002,3G > > the lottery deadline for the exam may be extended at the discretion  of theuF > > program manager. The two lottery winners will be notified by phone and/or > byH > > mail within 5 business days following each lottery, which will occur whenG > > Prometric makes the beta participant names available (probably late = > > February). Winners have 10 business days from the date ofo notification toH > > claim their prize, otherwise they will forfeit their prize and a new nameF > > will be selected. There is no implied obligation to notify lottery losers.  > >oC > > Compaq is not responsible for beta participant names omitted by 
 Prometric,? > > or related Prometric errors/omissions which may eliminate a  participantt > from > > a lottery. > >nH > > Compaq is not responsible if Prometric cannot schedule test time forF > > individual candidates within the beta period, so candidates should
 > register
 > > early. > >sC > > Winners are responsible for any applicable country or local tax  > obligations. > > B > > These terms and conditions may be amended or elaborated by the program E > > manager to comply with additional corporate requirements or locala > > regulations. > > @ > > Please distribute this announcement to OpenVMS professionals everywhere.  > >i@ > > Thank you in advance for your cooperation and participation. > >t5 > > Compaq Accredited Professional Program - HPS Teamu > >n > >  > >  >O >V   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:49:36 +0100a$ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>C Subject: Re: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMSt. Message-ID: <z5e38.90$EU.2648@news.get2net.dk>  " Ah yes Kerry, an all time classic.  6 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@compaq.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4016CE883@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. ..   re: What is an Engineer?  D Apologies for a little humour .. hopefully the lawyers will not come	 after me.   ; A golden "oldie" for all those aspiring to be Engingears ..e   :-) :-)m  E A man in a hot air balloon realized he was lost. He  reduced altitude ' and spotted a man on the ground  below.c& He descended a bit more and   shouted,F "Excuse me, can  you help me?  I promised a friend I would meet him an) hour  ago,  but I don't know where I am."aG "You are in a hot air balloon hovering  approximately 30 feet above thekF ground.  You are between 40 and 41  degrees north latitude and betweenF 59 and  60 degrees west longitude."  Replied the man below.  "You must7 be an engineer or an accountant," said  the balloonist. C "You're right," replied the man on the ground, "How did  you know?" G "Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technicallyeE correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and theaF fact is I am still lost.  Frankly, you've not been much help  so far."  5 "You must be in Management." responded the man below.iE "I  am," replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?" "Well," saidaG the  man on the ground, "you don't know where you are or where  you are E going. You have risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hottD air. You  made a promise which you have no idea how to keep, and youF expect people beneath  you to solve your problems. The fact is you areA in exactly the same position you  were in before we met, but now,l somehow, it's my  fault.",   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantr Compaq Canada Corp.e Professional Servicesi Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----( From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com] Sent: January 21, 2002 3:54 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com"C Subject: Re: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professional exams for OpenVMS      Sue,  ? Please pass this along to your legal dept. so they can make then appropriate > changes to the course descriptions and designations in Canada.  B They can contact the following professional licencing body for the rules: Professional Engineers Ontario 25 Sheppard Avenue Westb Toronto, Ontario Canada   M2N 6S6 Phone: (416) 224-1100a  2 Save yourselves the lawyers bills and court costs.    ? In the US, the term 'Engineer' can be, and is used, in a ratherrD fast-'n'-loose way. Generally accepted to be somebody who designs or createsnD something in traditional engineering disciplines, or in the field ofC software development, someone who deals with numerical methods [notMG accounting :-) ] in the financial services field, or the guy who drivesk the  train.  @ However, only the person who has P.E. after their name is a true	 engineer.c    G The term 'Engineer' is a legally protected concept/title in Canada. Onei hasEB to be a graduate of an accredited engineering school in one of the accepted> disciplines (mechanical, civil, aerospace, mining, geological,? metallurgical, civil, industrial, electrical, etc...), and then  certified by the D appropriate licencing body after having had suitable work experienceF post-graduation.   P.Eng is the official designation. This is codified in law.  F The Canadian licensing bodies regularly slap Microsoft, Cisco, Compaq,= and anyone else who tries to use the term 'engineer' in theire designations or advertising.l    E BTW, in Canada the terms MCSE, CNE, etc... may not be expanded - theye arenC just meaningless collections of letters, even if the holder of saido0 designation IS a licenced Professional Engineer.    - Your mileage in other jurisdictions may vary.c        = "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message , news:lwJ%7.593$5Y4.15922@news.cpqcorp.net...E > North America folks who maintain the web pages have yet to post then betaB > exams on their beta page. The 436 and 450 beta exams are live at	 Prometric ; > Test Centers as indicated on the Testing Information pagecG > (http://www.compaq.com/training/2023.html), which also provides links  to thetE > Exam Preparation Guides. See bottom of table on Testing Informationm page > ? > "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in messagee. > news:7en_7.369$5Y4.10466@news.cpqcorp.net... > > Newsgroup, > >gE > > I just received this, you will have to go to the web site for theeE > > attachments that are mentioned in this email.  I have no idea why5 its4 > double< > > spaced again.  This will be on web sites later this week > >h > > Sueo > > B > > ______________________________________________________________ > >v* > > To: OpenVMS Professionals and Managers > >t; > > From: Compaq Accredited Professional Program - HPS Teamn > >33 > > Re: Recruitment of OpenVMS Beta Exam CandidatesP > >a > > Important: > >o@ > > Please act on this request immediately to ensure April, 2002 availability > of > > live exams!e@ > > Please distribute this announcement to OpenVMS professionals everywhere.  > >u > > Greetings, > > E > > The Compaq High Performance Server group (HPS) has launched betasi fori twosH > > new Compaq Accredited Professional exams that support the OpenVMS V7	 > SystemssG > > Engineer and AlphaServer/OpenVMS V7 ASE certification designations._ The_ > > exams are: > >_@ > > OpenVMS V7 Advanced Administration, Performance, and Support	 (011-450)o > >A/ > > OpenVMS V7 Network Administration (011-436)  > >eC > > The beta exams are available, now, at Prometric Testing Centers 
 worldwide.G > > The final "live" exams will be available at CAT Global Test Centers  in > EMEA,e@ > > as well as Prometric, following completion of the beta test. > >a7 > > Take a free beta exam. win an iPAQ color pocket PC!p > >gH > > All individuals who complete (pass or fail) one or both of the above betaD > > exams before February 15, 2002 will qualify to win an iPAQ color pocket PCE > > (model H3650). At the close of the beta period for each exam, the  HPSmG > > certification program manager will randomly draw one name from eachp of the1F > > two beta test groups and award the lucky participants an iPAQ (see lotteryaH > > terms and conditions below). So take the test(s) for free and take a > chanceC > > at winning an iPAQ. If you do not pass, then you will receive aA vouchers toC > > take the live exam for free. EMEA candidates will receive a CATe Global> > > voucher. All other candidates receive a Prometric voucher. > >h > > Time frame > >aB > > The beta exams are available now and will run to approximately February > 15,oC > > 2002. The target end date, which may change based on enrollmente figures,B > > marks the end of the data collection period for the beta exam.
 CandidatesG > > may continue to take the exam beyond the end date, since beta examsl arep > notaC > > retired until the live exams are available. We're expecting thet exams to > go > > live in April 2002.  > >tB > > Register now for one or both of the betas, or identify several@ > > colleagues/employees in your organization who are willing to participate.H > > Please encourage candidates to take the exam before February 15. The onlyE > > individuals who will qualify for the iPAQ lotteries are those whoo take thee+ > > exam(s) on or before February 15, 2002.d > >,# > > Who should take the beta exams?d > >uC > > The beta exams are intended for OpenVMS Systems Administrators,a SystemA > > Engineers, Service Engineers, and Pre-Sales Technical Supporte	 EngineersdE > > within Compaq, Compaq partner, and Compaq customer organizations.x ThenE > > expertise and experience levels of beta candidates may vary, fromw thosee > whohB > > have advanced OpenVMS system skills to those who have basic orH > > intermediate-level skills. See the Exam Preparation Guides (EPGs) at> > > http://www.compaq.com/certification/na/betaexam.html for a descriptionl of" > > the competencies being tested. > >rC > > OpenVMS professionals within Compaq, Compaq partner, and Compaq  customerF > > organizations should be recruited, as well as OpenVMS instructors. This > mixiG > > of candidates is critical to evaluate the exam questions and defineh aa > > passing score. > > @ > > Because a range of expertise is required for the beta, it is expected thatH > > some candidates will not pass. However, candidates who take the beta willG > > become familiar with the areas where they are skilled and the areas  whered > > they need development. > >r' > > How to prepare for the beta exam(s)w > >aH > > Before you register and take an exam, review the content of the exam andi > thegG > > applicable training or documentation. This information is availablea in theXD > > Exam Preparation Guide for each exam. The beta exams are "closed book"t. > > exams. No reference materials are allowed. > >e > > Exam Preparation Guidesd > >nE > > The beta Exam Preparation Guides (EPGs) are attached and are alsoe locatedr > atH > > http://www.compaq.com/certification/na/betaexam.html. It's important to) > > review the EPG before taking an exam.m > >  > > What is a beta exam? > >kF > > A beta exam allows us to test the integrity of questions before we develope > atA > > final exam. After candidates take a beta exam, we analyze thee resultsc andtD > > the candidates' comments to select the best questions, construct > equivalent5 > > forms of the exam, and establish a passing score.f > >c' > > Benefits to candidates and managersl > > % > > There is no cost for a beta exam!e > > B > > Candidates who do not pass a beta exam have a better chance of passing( the H > > live exam, since they see all the questions in the exam pool. During thetD > > live exam, candidates see only selected questions from the pool. > >aH > > Candidates become familiar with the areas where they are skilled and thes > > areas where they need work.r > > F > > A candidate who does not pass a beta exam can retake the live exam at noh > > additional cost. > > D > > The passing score for an exam is defined several weeks after the betaE > > concludes. Candidates who pass a beta exam are recorded as havingi passed > thesF > > live exam and do not have to take it. (The test center may provide= > > candidates with a record of their beta results, which the 
 certification ? > > program office may require, so retain any record provided.)  > >g > > Time commitment, > >iG > > The exam (and administration time) can take up to 4 hours dependingc on theiF > > number of questions being tested. Travel time to and from the test center > is > > additional.d > >h > > Registering  > >eG > > To register for the exam, call the Prometric Testing Center nearest  to youcE > > and request the Compaq 450 and/or 436 exam (see titles above), or. register) > > online at http://2test.com/index.jsp.n > >aD > > Please register as soon as possible. Since beta exams tend to be long,p? > > Prometric may have difficulty scheduling blocks of time for 
 individualD > > candidates. You will need the following information to register: > > * > > Compaq badge number (Compaq employees) > >nH > > Social Security Number (If you do not have a Social Security Number, then > anD > > ID number will be assigned. (Note: You must use this same number when& > > registering for all future exams.) > >o > > Company Name > >  > > Tutorial > >TH > > Before you begin an exam, you can take a tutorial at the test center toD > > familiarize yourself with the details of taking online Prometric exams. IfF > > you have not taken an online Prometric exam, you are encouraged to take > thisG > > tutorial. It will help you take the exam more efficiently. Time forl takingH > > the tutorial (approximately 10 to 15 minutes) is not counted against theq# > > time you have to take the exam.  > > + > > Comments on the exam / Candidate surveyS > > D > > After you complete the exam, you can make comments on questions: their C > > accuracy, appropriateness to audience, etc. You also see survey 	 questionspH > > before the exam. The survey is designed to help the exam team define theaC > > final exam forms for the target audiences, so please answer thee surveyF > > questions accurately. Taking the survey does not count against the time > you, > > have to take the exam. > >h. > > iPAQ color PC lottery terms and conditions > > @ > > The following terms and conditions have been established for > administration > > of the iPAQ lotteries. > >i7 > > To qualify for the iPAQ lottery, beta participants:  > >/E > > Must have gained experience selling, supporting, or using OpenVMS  systemso > as? > > a system administrator, systems engineer, service engineer,o	 pre-saless= > > technical support engineer, instructor, student, or other  OpenVMS-relatedt	 > > role.  > > D > > Must possess at least basic OpenVMS system skills and knowledge. > >yG > > Must complete the 450 and/or 436 beta exam(s) on or before February  15,  > 2002+ > > at an authorized Prometric Test Center.l > > C > > Must attempt to answer all questions presented during the exam.t > >hC > > Must complete the candidate survey that is presented before the. exam.  > >o@ > > Must provide appropriate contact information during the exam registration > > process. > >sF > > Candidates can take one or both beta exams, but cannot take either exam > more% > > than once within the beta period.  > >hF > > Candidates who take both betas are eligible to participate in both- > > lotteries, but cannot win more than once.a > >pF > > Prizes are iPAQ color pocket PCs (model H3650). If unavailable, anD > > equivalent value prize will be substituted. No cash substitution will beP > > offered. > >rF > > If at least 50 participants have not taken a beta exam by February 15,n > 2002, G > > the lottery deadline for the exam may be extended at the discretionk of the F > > program manager. The two lottery winners will be notified by phone and/or > byH > > mail within 5 business days following each lottery, which will occur whenG > > Prometric makes the beta participant names available (probably lated= > > February). Winners have 10 business days from the date of  notification toH > > claim their prize, otherwise they will forfeit their prize and a new nameF > > will be selected. There is no implied obligation to notify lottery losers.  > >iC > > Compaq is not responsible for beta participant names omitted by 
 Prometric,? > > or related Prometric errors/omissions which may eliminate ai participanta > from > > a lottery. > >rH > > Compaq is not responsible if Prometric cannot schedule test time forF > > individual candidates within the beta period, so candidates should
 > register
 > > early. > >rC > > Winners are responsible for any applicable country or local taxb > obligations. > >aB > > These terms and conditions may be amended or elaborated by the programlE > > manager to comply with additional corporate requirements or locale > > regulations. > > @ > > Please distribute this announcement to OpenVMS professionals everywhere.  > >e@ > > Thank you in advance for your cooperation and participation. > >l5 > > Compaq Accredited Professional Program - HPS Team  > >c > >t > >r >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:25:52 -0800e' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSh+ Message-ID: <3C4D9290.8798476D@caltech.edu>r   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  M > There are lots of issues with "porting" either environment.  None the leasttE > of which is how directories and files are handled and presented.  AlL > significant amount of work went into CDE, Motif and Xm to handle VMS-styleL > presentation.  It's not pretty.  Would users embrace a Gnome/KDE port thatC > required ODS-5, and presented the filesystem as if it were a UNIX.
 > filesystem?p  O If files are only ever named/picked from a GUI selection window then the extent-/ of the changes required consists of converting:1   .3 .. subdir1m subdir2e etc.   to   _RELOAD_THIS_DIRECTORY_n _UP_TO_PARENT_DIRECTORY_ subdir1x subdir2p  P via a tiny amount of code and an #ifdef.  The two _*_ commands needn't even stayK on the directory pull down list - they could become buttons. And I'll argueC@ that this change would be a good one in general terms because itL would make the interface portable to any OS that has a tree like file systemE and wouldn't require that casual users understand what . and .. mean.e   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:42:24 -0500p5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>m% Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMSu1 Message-ID: <Yzh38.317$PZ4.6168@news.cpqcorp.net>   @ David Mathog wrote in message <3C4D9290.8798476D@caltech.edu>... >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:t > H >> There are lots of issues with "porting" either environment.  None the leastdF >> of which is how directories and files are handled and presented.  AC >> significant amount of work went into CDE, Motif and Xm to handleY	 VMS-style,H >> presentation.  It's not pretty.  Would users embrace a Gnome/KDE port thatD >> required ODS-5, and presented the filesystem as if it were a UNIX >> filesystem? >eI >If files are only ever named/picked from a GUI selection window then theo extent0 >of the changes required consists of converting: >s >. >..e >subdir1 >subdir2 >etc.i >t >tol >n >_RELOAD_THIS_DIRECTORY_ >_UP_TO_PARENT_DIRECTORY_o >subdir1 >subdir2 >tL >via a tiny amount of code and an #ifdef.  The two _*_ commands needn't even stayL >on the directory pull down list - they could become buttons. And I'll argueA >that this change would be a good one in general terms because itmF >would make the interface portable to any OS that has a tree like file systemF >and wouldn't require that casual users understand what . and .. mean. >n    I Ah, were it so easy.  Having just done this for CDE and for Motif for COEa/ (it should also work in the upcoming V7.3-1)...   J The code is generally very UNIX file system intensive.  Sometimes the fileD name is stored in the display structure, sometimes its is some otherH structure.  Then there is the question of who will consume the filename?K Will it be something that expects a UNIX name?  Or something that expects anK VMS name?  Then there are the "buglets" that need to be worked around.  FortJ instance "/h/foo" may map to a VMS filename of "h:FOO." but RMS insists onJ upcasing logicals (even though you *can* create a lowercase logical name).K Then there is the issue of [000000].  When traversing back up the directory.H tree, you can find yourself at "/h/000000/" which is perfectly valid forL VMS, and even as a UNIX name - but what a UNIX person would expect is "/h/".  ) Also, the display is not always a simple:n       .      ..	     file1a	     file2e  K but often there is a filter string, as well as a directory string.  For theaL Motif widgets, the filenames actually contain the full pathname (even thoughI typically they are displayed in such a way that only the filename is seen' unless you resize.  K I've made ALL of this work on CDE (file manager) and for the Motif widgets,iJ as well as for the API (like UIDPATH).  While it didn't take me months (it: took weeks) it wasn't trivial, and wasn't straightforward.  L It is the one place that a port isn't straightforward - heck, the Motif codeK even *thought* it was set up for portability - having all the file stuff iniL a platform dependent module.  But that didn't stop assumption creep into theK code that calls the file logic - like the use of UNIX file semantics in the C names, and the use of "." and ".." for current directory and parent % directory, or "~" for home directory.    _Fredy   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:53:06 +0000e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>S! Subject: Re: A position statement 8 Message-ID: <fcfq4u035hk43q9tu30b4b5uvo8vkuotom@4ax.com>  C On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:41:40 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>l wrote:    N >In all fairness, banks started to tell me VMS was dead back in 1996. And if IT >remember correctly, SWIFT decided to drop VMS some time before the Compaq takeover.  ? It was around 1990 that senior Digital management first startedrD telling selected customers that VMS was on its was out. Just exactly< who authorized this is a good question. By 1996 we were intoF "Affinity" and Alpha/NT was being pushed as the replacement for VMS toE banks and everyone else. Recall Alpha was  advertised as "Born to runwC NT".  As I said here at the time - what message then should we take  from the death of Alpha/NT?t  D Btw, isn't it funny that the same Compaq employees who get worked upE when we use phrases such as "Alpha murder", "death", "killing" ("It'ssD not alive so don't use emotive language" etc) did not seem to have aD problem with Digital/Compaq using the term "born" to describe Alpha.  O >During the short VMS renaissance, I did email the person in charge of SWIFT atnN >Compaq and told him that since the NT product was somewhat delayed in gettingJ >the same functionality as ST400, and since Compaq (at the time) had shownN >signs of revival in VMS, that perhaps Compaq should go to SWIFT and tell them  D I've spoken very recently to two ex Digital/Compaq employees heavilyD involved with SWIFT (project management level and/or above). Off the< record they both said very similar which was they were  toldE internally that a budget cut had mistakenly removed a line item for a @ relatively small piece of funding required to keep SWIFT on VMS.E Supposedly the 'accountant' red-lined one item without realising thato would kill the entire project.  F When they then argued back up the chain that by saving this relativelyB small amount of money they guaranteed the death of SWIFT on VMS no4 remedial action was taken. Draw your own conclusion.  M >At the time, I though the excuse was very lame, but now that I know that the N >"renaissance" was just a temporary blip, I can understand why Compaq wouldn't  >be interested in pursuing this.  E Unless this guy was fired its yet more proof that Compaq still have a E policy to phase out VMS but by a gradual decline rather than Palmer'se7 outright mistake in attempting a fast transition to NT.    >aI >SWIFT is truly a mission critical system for banks because internationalsI >transactions are a big profit maker, so the banks really do need to have T >disaster recovery plans for the SWIFT systems. And this is where VMS really shines.  2 And a very, very big reason for Compaq to rethink. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:16:29 +0000e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a! Subject: Re: A position statement 8 Message-ID: <2mhq4uclembgudb11bev8pugl3cjhc0p8m@4ax.com>  F On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:52:27 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:  L >More to the point, it is extremely rare that any financial institution willK >build or buy anything based on VMS these days. They build on VMS if that'stD >all they have. As to buying a new solution based on VMS, haaa haaaa@ >haaa...gales of outrageous laughter, ....it does not happen too; >often.Otherwise the tendency is towards Solaris/AIX or NT.t  F And that's part of the political problem explained to me by "people inF the know". Even if Compaq backtracked on SWIFT now just how exactly doC they avoid getting laughed out of the door when they go back to theyF same institutions who were quietly told "VMS is not strategic" and sayA "today VMS is strategic". I have to admit that's a difficult one.   F >We used to have approximately 40 customers of our VMS-based financialD >applications...securities trading, clearing & settlement, portfolioJ >management, etc.... now we have none on VMS...some got merged into/boughtC >out by other firms and VMS was pushed out the door by the time thesH >merger/takeover was finalized...in other cases it was that our customerD >migrated off VMS, and in no case where a merger/takeover or naturalD >migration occurred did the migration to unix involve Ultrix/Digital >Unix/Tru64.  F And that was the huge flaw in Digital's belief that they could cut outB the investment in multiple OSs and still get all the sales. It wasE Unigraphics management who first told me they'd been reduced to tearshF trying to get Digital to understand that if they phased out UG for VMS? (as Digital asked them to do) in favour of Unix it would not behC Digital who would get the sales. Digital would not listen. Note: weeD have 40 UG seats this location only and around a thousand worldwide.F That's around $ 50 million dollars hardware and software all on HP-UX.D Ten to fifteen years ago VMS was the lead platform for new sales. ItE was dropped for Tru64 two years ago and we were told (off the record) D this was because Compaq were phasing out Alpha. Who turned out to be right?     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:20:57 +0000n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e! Subject: Re: A position statementd8 Message-ID: <pfiq4u8j1i8dv4chnbmek9dnm5n61ptbni@4ax.com>  / On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:09:16 +0100, John McLeane& <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote:     >aI >The problem for us here seems to lie in motivating/encouraging Compaq tot >do so.l  C Could that be simply because they don't want to rather than because ) they or their underlings are incompetent?e  E If that was true then no wonder they want all this 'whining' to stop.tB We've discovered the truth and it is very uncomfortable for them.    >u? >I emailed Michael Cappellas on Jan 4th about issues related toiF >marketing.  I've had no response yet but be assured that unless thereB >are very strict constraints put on me, I will report back to this >newsgroup.n  C Well it's either been ignored or else just maybe the combination ofxE all events of the last six months are forcing them to look at a "PlaneB B" and take some time.. Just why exactly does this much ignored OS generate *so much* feedback...   >  >m >John McLean   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:26:59 +0100 $ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>! Subject: Re: A position statemente. Message-ID: <mMd38.84$EU.2584@news.get2net.dk>  A I now put McLean in my "idiot" bucket with the previous occupant.v   See comments below ..a   Dweeb.> "John McLean" <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> wrote in message/ news:3C4D01B2.9DB5E43D@swissonline.delete.ch...t >  >  > Bill Todd wrote: > >i > .. (snip)d >s& > Bill, you are becoming very tedious. > D > You seem to be assuming that you have the same information as thatF > Compaq used for its BUSINESS DECISION and whether you have or not isE > somewhat irrelevant because it is their company and their decision.b >o  K It is completely relevant and there is no notion or explicit reference thatdJ I recall, that such an "assumption" has been made.  Please point to it for my edification.s  K It is the same information that the analysts, customers and journalists et.(: al. use to evaluate and form opinions and recommendations.  I Matters of public record are completely legitimate sources of informationxJ for analysing the actions and motivations of a company and its executives.F The quality of much of this information is guaranteed by quite a largeI number of laws.  It may not all be perfectly accurate, it may at times be K incomplete and obfuscated, but EVERYONE on the outside with the inclination G and interest (and this includes all the Gartner types and Goldman Sachs D types as well as you and me) use this and other (sometimes privatelyI obtained) information to form the information base for their conclusions.eL When corporations are caught out lying, the results are usually not a prettyI sight, so most individuals involved do not unless they absolutely have nooI choice.  We, as recipients must rely to a large extent on the veracity ofpB published and recorded statements from companies and its officers.  G You can dispute the information's veracity, but you must do so based oneD alternative verifiable sources, otherwise you position is untenable.  G You can dispute the reasoning based on theoretical logic or alternative  reasoning/explanation.  J You cannot base you dispute on unsupported information or notions that theH very premise for the discussion is invalid (unless of course you thereby3 wish to invalidate your own participation as well).s  I To do one or both of these things, as you have done, is invalid and makess0 your argument unworthy of serious consideration.  F You may of course own all the opinions you want and share them freely.J However this does not bestow on said opinions any validity as an anlaysis.  : You would do well to take a reality check on these points.  A Also, you clearly should read a Companies Act, ANY Companies Act.p  H To the extent that officers of the company are shareholders, it might beD said to be at least partly "their" company.  It is however factuallyH incorrect to state that "it is their company and their decision".  It isH only "their decision".   The company belongs to the shareholders and theJ officers have legal duties and stewardship responsibilities to the owners.K They are answerable for their actions to the elected representatives of ther company, the BoD.a  B > I might be wrong.  Michael Capellas may have phoned you and saidA > something like "Mr Todd, we know you are not part of the CompaqxG > management team, and you are not even an employee who is directly andxI > significantly impacted, but come down to Houston and we will give you aeI > big presentation to explain every detail of our business decision.  YoutF > can talk to our accountants, technical people, business strategists,I > marketing people.  You can see all our estimates of costs, revenues and ! > profits for the next 10 years."o > J > Has that happened ?  I suspect not.  And as a consequence your arguments > have little or no validity.  >   G This so logically flawed that I hesitate to do more than point out thatbI consigning that last paragraph to the "I wish I had not said that" buckett would be your best recourse.  G > If you feel you have an issue with the management of Compaq then takeeH > the problem to the next stockholders' meeting and ask questions there. > F > Your repetitious cries are sounding more and more like a child whose' > favourite toy has been taken fom him.s >v  F Actually, Bill is very good at repeating public record and determiningE boundaries based on these records and from them constructing reasonedbK argument.  There are few herein who are equally inclined to do the research $ and construct reasoning based on it.  F Repetition of public record in response to repeated claims that public! record is wrong seems reasonable.    >c
 > John McLean   L My sad personal OPINION is that ComapQ management (excluding the few seriousC types in VMS) are morons and the sooner they are ousted the better.c  I I heard directly from Palmer's mouth that (and I paraphrase here) VMS wasoL out and NT in and we had better get on to NT now, and since then things have become considerably worse.  I Sadly, my professional career in the VMS space is winding down along withrK VMS.  I wish that would change, but it is clearly the conscious decision ofsJ the previous and current owners of the technology that VMS die. The publicE record evidence is so overwhelming that only the blind cannot see it.e  G If you have ever had the tragic misfortune to witness the slow death of-H another human being though degenerative disease, you will doubtless haveG noticed how hard it is to kill a human being, the body is resilient and K fights a long hard struggle before succumbing.  VMS is in the death throes,hK and it is a tragic sight.  Those that poisoned it and cast it aside to feed K on its accumulated wealth deserve only our everlasting disdain.  They will,fL however, go unpunished and some of them (eg. GQ Bob) will be richly rewarded for their part.    Dweeb.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:22:34 -0500h% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>i! Subject: Re: A position statementr, Message-ID: <3C4D75A4.BB58F9C4@videotron.ca>   "Dr. Dweeb" wrote:K > Matters of public record are completely legitimate sources of information L > for analysing the actions and motivations of a company and its executives.  G Very good point. I think that Compaq would gain much credibility if itseM commitments to VMS were made in such a way that they were filed with the SEC. G It would show that Compaq's commitments were serious enough to be filed J "officially" instead of just some leaks on some internet newsgroup telling customers not to worry.a  L If VMS is so profitable, how come Compaq refuses to acknoledge its existanceK in accounting documents?  The only reason I can see is that Compaq does not:L want to be criticized by the wall street casino analysts if it does not takeL poroper care of a profitable product (and eventually kills it). Same applies
 for Alpha.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 06:57:53 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)i, Subject: Re: Advanced Server 7.3 - exploded.< Message-ID: <55f85d77.0201220657.a5a20cd@posting.google.com>  n "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNOSP@Mcompaq.com> wrote in message news:<3rX28.261$PZ4.4583@news.cpqcorp.net>...
 > Patrick, > 6 > It would appear that your SAM database is corrupted. > J > the best way to deal with this is to contact your CSC, they can help you  F Many thanks for the reply - I've done a little extra late night pokingE and probing after sending my posting yesterday and have recreated thesE AWOL accounts and all was fine today except for those couple of extraE> "user objects" reported by SAMCHECK (I would have thought someB documented repair tool would be provided to edit/remove these, and# they would be reported on startup).w  A I don't want to embark on any "major surgery", reconstruction, or > otherwise at this time as things are getting busy for start ofC session, although I am _very_ worried as to what caused this in thed first place.  L > The SAMCHECK utility, though it is generally reliable, is unsupported, and  C I must admit I'm a little disappointed with Advanced Server in thiss= regard. While the ADMIN tool is most excellent, it is very M$y= Window(tm)/UNIX like underneath concerning the (undocumented)dA collection of tools that come with it and the fact data files are C stream files, not indexed and SAMCHECK does not even document _ALL_ D it's own options in it's flags/help display (something I would never do myself as a programmer).   C "generally reliable" is not a term I would generally associate withaD OpenVMS or it's layered products, more a M$ Window(tm) term. I can't@ for example ever remember my SYSUAF or RIGHTSLIST files becomingB corrupted, or indeed any data files from applications I've written= using indexed sequential files (except for my own programmingy	 errors!).   A I'll in no way hold yourself or Compaq responsible over this - my A feeling is it is yet another example of M$ doing their usual over B code that may have needed to be included in Advanced Server. TheirB "reinstall over repair attitude", the amount of $ they make CompaqA charge for the client access licenses, and the fact they feel theeA need to change anything at anytime without telling anyone... (youu! can tell how much I __HATE__ M$?)o  D Off topic musing... [Sigh, why is it every year I feel a step closerD to being forced out of the Computer Industry (I don't want, nor willD have any part of the "IT Industry" being M$ in particular), or ie: I< would rather empty trash cans than have to support/deal with M$ products on a daily basis].   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:39:00 -0800 (PST)d. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>/ Subject: Alphaserver 1000 - Installing "wheels"s@ Message-ID: <20020122153900.41359.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>  	 Dear Sirsp     Is there any kind of kit to=20" install "wheels" in an AlphaServer 1000 ???? Like the Proliants.,  & I have one of this "monsters" - almost& 40 kg - in my home for hobby purposes. I didnt intalled the OS yet.   Regards4   FC=209   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D@L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Dr F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil6 fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3Do  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:39:05 GMTn  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>B Subject: Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows!+ Message-ID: <3C4D172F.C681D802@prodigy.net>w   Bob Koehler wrote: > b > In article <o7qn4us5lpi4a1caefq124lmep3h98aisv@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > > G > > They originally tried to use the term "Microsoft Chartered SoftwaresF > > Engineer" in the UK and elsewhere. It was pointed out to them thatE > > only The Crown could authorize an Institution to grant "Chartered E > > Engineer" status and that MS were technically therefore guilty ofSG > > treason. One of the very few offences for which Britain technicallya$ > > still retains the death penalty. > I >    Would Her Highness the Queen of England do the rest of the world the G >    just favor of hanging Mr. Gates for this offense?  Or do I have tor- >    write it as favour to get her attention?i > 1 > > Not sure on this but I vaguely recall readingrH > > the fledgling United States did not repeal most existing British lawI > > (or perhaps some states specifically adopted it) bit instead gave the J > > "Supreme Court" ultimate authority on applicability of British law. SoF > > you might find spitting in the wind on Easter Sunday or other suchI > > arcana can get you executed even in the US (or some states at least).a > G >    The US now only recognizes such laws as are on the books.  You canTH >    get arrested for spitting in Baltimore, but they can't hang you for >    it.  # No, the US is a common law country.w   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 08:02:17 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)dB Subject: Re: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows!3 Message-ID: <mk7Z92KSauxK@eisner.encompasserve.org>   O >In article <3C4D172F.C681D802@prodigy.net>, cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net> writes:r  & >> No, the US is a common law country.    D    The term "common law" as used in the US refers to, or is part of,>    laws on the books.  IANAL but I wouldn't trust one who said
    otherwise.p  H    But there are some obscure old laws.  The law prohibiting spitting inD    Baltimore is over 200 years old.  Maryland has the only operatingK    commercial dredging fleet under sail because the law prohibits dredging <=    for mollusks in the Chesapeake Bay except when under sail.g        ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 07:47:42 -0800, From: jeremybarker@email.com (Jeremy Barker)Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DECo= Message-ID: <5b86b9ee.0201220747.3f527e97@posting.google.com>a  k Eric Smith <eric-no-spam-for-me@brouhaha.com> wrote in message news:<qhitahj434.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>...r. > John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com> writes:I > > While Compaq never sold BLISS for NT, we certainly continue to use itcI > > for the Fortran products (both on Alpha NT and IA32 NT) since the GEMc9 > > component of the compiler is written mostly in BLISS.u > E > Would it be that hard to do an automatic translation of BLISS to C?qC > I'm not a BLISS expert, but it seems to me that the semantics are E > simple enough.  I'd expect that the hardest part would be trying toeG > identify which variables are used as pointers vs. numeric types.  ForaE > variables that are used as both, the generated C code would need toe > include casts. > G > As far as I know, standard C does not specify any pair of integer and G > pointer types such that casting back and forth is guaranteed to work.tH > But in practice on any given implementation there usually are suitableF > types.  So a BLISS to C translator should allow the specification of > the C types to be used.   ? It's probably easier to translate C to BLISS than the reverse. oF Especially given that nothing in C can match the BLISS macro facility.  > It's certainly the case that various people have looked at theB possibility of a BLISS to C translator but the killer is the macroC facility built into the BLISS compiler front-end.  I also know thatt> someone looked at the possibility of making the BLISS compilerE generate C source code rather than object files (the aim was to wideno? the portability of programs written in BLISS) but this idea wase# abandoned for a variety of reasons.a   jb   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 07:33:26 -0800, From: jeremybarker@email.com (Jeremy Barker)X Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC< Message-ID: <5b86b9ee.0201220733.97fe903@posting.google.com>  n "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<V53Z7.267$5Y4.5736@news.cpqcorp.net>...L > Simon Clubley wrote in message <0H2Z7.2548$cD4.5034@www.newsranger.com>...N > >On Thu, 03 Jan 02 09:34:42 GMT, in article <a11g1s$1s3$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:n > >> > >>In articleN > >><Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> >  ,3 > >>   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote: & > >>>On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:I > >>>> > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the proper  > >>>> > word here...aH > >>>>    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before BLISS-36). > >>> K > >>>Only people who can't program in any language would be so stupid as tos0 > >>>prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language. > >>>eG > >>>BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly language.  But on thev
 >  PDP-10,  > >>>BLISS was a complete waste. > >>% > >>And made den mothers very cranky.u > >> > >>/BAH > >>+ > >>Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.c > > J > >[Since I have left the cross-post to alt.sys.pdp10 in, I should mentionJ > >that I am speaking from the viewpoint of a VMS person, and I have never > >used a PDP-10.] > >tJ > >Having seen many pro _and con_ BLISS comments over the years I have nowD > >become interested in understanding what attributes of BLISS cause$ > >such firm feelings on both sides. > >sK > >Note that I have never written a program in BLISS, but I am aware of the.K > >general syntax of BLISS-32. I do have experience in a range of languageseJ > >however (from Pascal type languages, to C/Perl, to assembly languages),1 > >so comparisons to other languages are welcome.D > >ON > >I should also comment that, since this does seem to inspire strong feelingsL > >for some reason, I am interested in the _facts_ and not religious fanatic > >type responses. :-) :-) > >  >  > J > Just religion.  Larry will tell you that Ada is the best language.  UNIXK > hacks will tell you C.  The kiddies will tell you JAVA.  I'm sure someonei > still loves RPG-II.a > H > BLISS was something out of Carnegie Mellon that attempted to provide aN > language that was suitable for writing system level code.  It was a HLL, butK > had semantics that would lend itself well to a high degree of control fort > the generated code.i >aL > The early VMS developers jumped on it as a way to write much of the kernel6 > code for VMS - as opposed to writing it in Macro-32.   That's incorrect.t  F In the early versions of VMS almost all the kernel code was written in? what was called Macro-32 on release (the assembler language waspA codenamed MARS during development).  As I recall (I would welcomeeE correction) about the only kernel-type code that was written in BLISSrB in VMS V1 was the FILES-11 ACP - thanks to Andy Goldstein - and, IB think, RMS-32.  Everything in the kernel proper that was basicallyE controlled by Dave Cutler and Dick Hustvedt was written in Macro-32. tE BLISS was mostly used in the various native-mode utility programs.  I F was once told that some parts of VMS V1 were written in "Brown" - this= being a hard to maintain version of Macro-32 that was full ofsE impenetrable macros written by someone called Brown (used for the DCL.B interpreter IIRC).  I believe the first kernel System Service codeF that was written in BLISS was the redone image activator in VMS V3 (or it may have been V4).n  E There was a DEC internal policy (in the Software Development PoliciestF and Procedures) dating from around the time that VMS was born that allF code would be written in BLISS unless there were compelling reasons toF use something else.  My understanding was that Cutler argued that only? by using Macro-32 could the kernel code be made to have optimallE performance.  Given the reputation that Cutler had for tweaking Macro " code that's altogether believable.   > The language itselfeI > never caught on.  It's kind of a strange language - it is an expressioncN > language, even though most people write it as a statement oriented language.J > The often complained about attribute is the "." dot indirection operatorH > (you need to specify that you want the contents of a location, not the > address of the location).h  B The dot operator is logically correct (or at least you construct aF coherent argument to prove that it is) but it's quite true to say thatD it caused no end of problems for a careless programmer.  Even though@ in my software engineer days I considered myself an expert BLISSD programmer I still had the occasional slip.  The one thing BLISS didF not have was data types.  For most things that wasn't a problem but itD did allow dangerous things - like unconstrained pointer arithmetic -/ that strongly typed languages protect you from.t  N > I once spent a few years writing a lot of BLISS - but I now only touch it to0 > bugfix things.  Most new code is written in C.  D When I write programs these days (I should explain that since I left? DEC 9 years ago I've become a lawyer) I often use C but I wouldmD really, really like to have a BLISS compiler for the x86/NT system IF play around with at home.  I have no ideal language but Eiffel perhapsC comes close.  For practical production use I would choose Borland'sh7 Delphi (which is an object-oriented Pascal derivative).i   jb   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 16:57:57 +0100w$ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>X Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <UZf38.111$EU.3174@news.get2net.dk>s  J CompaQ killed the BLISS/NT intel and Alpha compilers, but they existed for5 quite some time.  OracleRdb/NT used them extensively..  E Copies may exist, or maybe CompaQ got soft and put them in the publicc domain.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:58:54 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>tX Subject: RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEMFDPAA.tom@kednos.com>e  D Well, Cutler had a thing about assembler.  He rewrote our PL/I lexerF in Macro, which had been written in PL/I as a state machine, so it wasK about as efficient as you could get with a high-level language.  He did get J some improvement in the compilation speed (remember, this was on 780s) but thenB price he paid was too high, lack of poratbility, extensibility and maintainability.  K It is interesting to note from this period, that most of the major computertI manufacturers wrote their system code in some high-level language, excepts Dec.G Burroughs used Algol, Honeywell PL/I, IBM a version of PL/I called PLS.o PrimeeI and DG also did PL/I variants for systems programming.  Stratus had PL/I,  don'th remember what CDC or Wang hadt   > -----Original Message-----5 > From: Jeremy Barker [mailto:jeremybarker@email.com] ) > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:33 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.CommH > Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what > went wrong at DEC- >- >-B > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message/ > news:<V53Z7.267$5Y4.5736@news.cpqcorp.net>...m" > > Simon Clubley wrote in message- > <0H2Z7.2548$cD4.5034@www.newsranger.com>... / > > >On Thu, 03 Jan 02 09:34:42 GMT, in articles" > <a11g1s$1s3$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:c > > >> > > >>In article > >eD > >><Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washi > ngton.EDU> > >  ,5 > > >>   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:C( > > >>>On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:K > > >>>> > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the propern > > >>>> > word here...tJ > > >>>>    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before BLISS-36). > > >>>t@ > > >>>Only people who can't program in any language would be so > stupid as to2 > > >>>prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language. > > >>>eI > > >>>BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly language.  But on thet > >  PDP-10," > > >>>BLISS was a complete waste. > > >>' > > >>And made den mothers very cranky.J > > >>
 > > >>/BAH > > >>- > > >>Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.: > > >vL > > >[Since I have left the cross-post to alt.sys.pdp10 in, I should mentionL > > >that I am speaking from the viewpoint of a VMS person, and I have never > > >used a PDP-10.] > > >eL > > >Having seen many pro _and con_ BLISS comments over the years I have nowF > > >become interested in understanding what attributes of BLISS cause& > > >such firm feelings on both sides. > > >l@ > > >Note that I have never written a program in BLISS, but I am > aware of theC > > >general syntax of BLISS-32. I do have experience in a range oft > languagesoL > > >however (from Pascal type languages, to C/Perl, to assembly languages),3 > > >so comparisons to other languages are welcome.t > > >r@ > > >I should also comment that, since this does seem to inspire > strong feelingsn< > > >for some reason, I am interested in the _facts_ and not > religious fanaticg > > >type responses. :-) :-) > > >  > >_ > > L > > Just religion.  Larry will tell you that Ada is the best language.  UNIX@ > > hacks will tell you C.  The kiddies will tell you JAVA.  I'm > sure someone > > still loves RPG-II.c > >rJ > > BLISS was something out of Carnegie Mellon that attempted to provide aA > > language that was suitable for writing system level code.  Ito > was a HLL, butA > > had semantics that would lend itself well to a high degree ofn
 > control forE > > the generated code.  > > C > > The early VMS developers jumped on it as a way to write much ofr > the kernel8 > > code for VMS - as opposed to writing it in Macro-32. >d > That's incorrect.w >aH > In the early versions of VMS almost all the kernel code was written inA > what was called Macro-32 on release (the assembler language wasrC > codenamed MARS during development).  As I recall (I would welcome G > correction) about the only kernel-type code that was written in BLISS'D > in VMS V1 was the FILES-11 ACP - thanks to Andy Goldstein - and, ID > think, RMS-32.  Everything in the kernel proper that was basicallyF > controlled by Dave Cutler and Dick Hustvedt was written in Macro-32.G > BLISS was mostly used in the various native-mode utility programs.  IcH > was once told that some parts of VMS V1 were written in "Brown" - this? > being a hard to maintain version of Macro-32 that was full of G > impenetrable macros written by someone called Brown (used for the DCLaD > interpreter IIRC).  I believe the first kernel System Service codeH > that was written in BLISS was the redone image activator in VMS V3 (or > it may have been V4).p >tG > There was a DEC internal policy (in the Software Development Policies H > and Procedures) dating from around the time that VMS was born that allH > code would be written in BLISS unless there were compelling reasons toH > use something else.  My understanding was that Cutler argued that onlyA > by using Macro-32 could the kernel code be made to have optimaltG > performance.  Given the reputation that Cutler had for tweaking Macro $ > code that's altogether believable. >  > > The language itselfbK > > never caught on.  It's kind of a strange language - it is an expression== > > language, even though most people write it as a statement3 > oriented language.L > > The often complained about attribute is the "." dot indirection operatorJ > > (you need to specify that you want the contents of a location, not the > > address of the location).= >3D > The dot operator is logically correct (or at least you construct aH > coherent argument to prove that it is) but it's quite true to say thatF > it caused no end of problems for a careless programmer.  Even thoughB > in my software engineer days I considered myself an expert BLISSF > programmer I still had the occasional slip.  The one thing BLISS didH > not have was data types.  For most things that wasn't a problem but itF > did allow dangerous things - like unconstrained pointer arithmetic -1 > that strongly typed languages protect you from.o >C? > > I once spent a few years writing a lot of BLISS - but I now  > only touch it to2 > > bugfix things.  Most new code is written in C. > F > When I write programs these days (I should explain that since I leftA > DEC 9 years ago I've become a lawyer) I often use C but I would F > really, really like to have a BLISS compiler for the x86/NT system IH > play around with at home.  I have no ideal language but Eiffel perhapsE > comes close.  For practical production use I would choose Borland'sr9 > Delphi (which is an object-oriented Pascal derivative).o >u > jb >s   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 08:13:39 -0800, From: jeremybarker@email.com (Jeremy Barker)X Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC= Message-ID: <5b86b9ee.0201220813.4e642eea@posting.google.com>h   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote in message news:<Pine.NXT.4.50.0201041017210.22025-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>... & > On 4 Jan 2002, Peter da Silva wrote:L > > That is, at the time VMS development was started "C" was not even on theI > > radar. Even if it might have made more sense to use C than BLISS (andwO > > I can't argue otherwise, really) I don't think there's any reason to expecth= > > the people making the decision to have even *heard* of C.d > L > I first heard about VAX and VMS in the mid-70s.  By that time, they shouldH > have known what Bell Labs was doing with all those PDP-11s, even if at% > that time UNIX was mostly internal.  > ) > BCPL was widely available by that time.o  E VAX and VMS were conceived around 1975.  I think it's stretching it a F bit to say that BCPL was "widely" available then.  I should say that I= learned how to write properly structured programs using BCPL.   lC > > A stripped-down Algol or PL/1 might have been better solutions.m > J > Agreed.  Univac used Algol, and PL/1 was the system language on Multics.2 > Both of these were already old hat by that time.  C Maybe so.  As I understand the situation, BLISS was favoured by DEC2C because of the DEC-CMU connections and because of the research thatID had been done at CMU on producing highly optimised code (the TOPS-10F hosted BLISS-16 compiler).  My view (which others will likely disagreeA with) is that it was only around the mid-1970s timeframe that DEC:A became seriously interested in compilers.  It had previously donenF pretty much everything in assembly language of one sort or another and@ compilers were just something that customers needed so had to be@ provided.  Some compilers were bought in (BASIC-PLUS on RSTS forA example).  You have to remember that DEC was basically a hardwareaC company that used software (which was often given away) to leveraget@ hardware sales.  That model only really changed after the PDP-11E appeared and VAX was the first hardware designed along with software.a  uK > > Actually, I've found that it's easier to write portable code in FortrantM > > than in most languages, though that may partly have been due to the kindst, > > of things you actually wrote in Fortran. > L > Definitely true.  DEC adhered to Fortran II style I/O for a long time, butD > for the most part Fortran IV is Fortran IV no matter where you go.  F I remember that the computing service at Cambridge University producedB a guide to FORTRAN portability which showed what language featuresD were portable and to what degree.  Although the core of the languageD was highly portable there were lots of features that IBM (especially> in the S/370 H compiler) and others added that were distinctly
 non-portable.   t jb   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 08:26:26 -0800, From: jeremybarker@email.com (Jeremy Barker)X Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC; Message-ID: <5b86b9ee.0201220826.19a064@posting.google.com>i  e goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) wrote in message news:<3c3e24d1.37592805@news.process.com>...06 > On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:20:09 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"& > <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: > >:K > >Just religion.  Larry will tell you that Ada is the best language.  UNIX1L > >hacks will tell you C.  The kiddies will tell you JAVA.  I'm sure someone > >still loves RPG-II. > >:2 > But we all know that objectively, BLISS is best. > M > >The early VMS developers jumped on it as a way to write much of the kernelaL > >code for VMS - as opposed to writing it in Macro-32.  The language itself > >never caught on.  > N > It never helped that DEC priced the compiler so high---second only to Ada inQ > the '80s.  If they'd given the compiler away, or at least made it as affordablea9 > as C, PLI, and others, it might have had a chance, IMO.   F I always thought that the exorbitant pricing of the BLISS compiler wasF a mistake.  I think there was a lot of pressure internally to not sellC it (it being seen as a competitive advantage) so the high price wasu! probably intended as a deterrant.P   jb   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:36:16 -0800 (PST)g. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>X Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC@ Message-ID: <20020122163616.73987.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>  	 Dear Sirs-  ) Is there a BLISS version for Windows ?=20 % A Visual BLISS for example ? Or usingo Visual Interdev ?=20  2 Where can I learn it  ? Why should I learn it ?=20  + I never saw a documentation for teaching=20  BLISS in my life ?=20n     Regardsn   FC=20n    1 --- Jeremy Barker <jeremybarker@email.com> wrote: 1 > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>t > wrote in message/ > news:<V53Z7.267$5Y4.5736@news.cpqcorp.net>...B" > > Simon Clubley wrote in message- > <0H2Z7.2548$cD4.5034@www.newsranger.com>...e/ > > >On Thu, 03 Jan 02 09:34:42 GMT, in article " > <a11g1s$1s3$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  > > >> > > >>In article > >o >sL >><Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU= >_ > >  ,5 > > >>   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote: ( > > >>>On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:2 > > >>>> > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me > think what is the proper > > >>>> > word here...r5 > > >>>>    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (ase > in before BLISS-36). > > >>> 4 > > >>>Only people who can't program in any language > would be so stupid as to2 > > >>>prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language. > > >>>w3 > > >>>BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly  > language.  But on theM > >  PDP-10," > > >>>BLISS was a complete waste. > > >>' > > >>And made den mothers very cranky.i > > >>
 > > >>/BAH > > >>- > > >>Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.m > > > ) > > >[Since I have left the cross-post tol$ > alt.sys.pdp10 in, I should mention3 > > >that I am speaking from the viewpoint of a VMSA > person, and I have never > > >used a PDP-10.] > > >k2 > > >Having seen many pro _and con_ BLISS comments > over the years I have nowk, > > >become interested in understanding what > attributes of BLISS causee& > > >such firm feelings on both sides. > > > 0 > > >Note that I have never written a program in > BLISS, but I am aware of the5 > > >general syntax of BLISS-32. I do have experiences > in a range of languagesi4 > > >however (from Pascal type languages, to C/Perl, > to assembly languages),l3 > > >so comparisons to other languages are welcome.r > > >e5 > > >I should also comment that, since this does seem  > to inspire strong feelings4 > > >for some reason, I am interested in the _facts_ > and not religious fanatice > > >type responses. :-) :-) > > >p > >=20 > >=203 > > Just religion.  Larry will tell you that Ada isf > the best language.  UNIX5 > > hacks will tell you C.  The kiddies will tell yous > JAVA.  I'm sure someones > > still loves RPG-II.e > >=203 > > BLISS was something out of Carnegie Mellon thatg > attempted to provide a1 > > language that was suitable for writing system   > level code.  It was a HLL, but2 > > had semantics that would lend itself well to a > high degree of control for > > the generated code.n > >a5 > > The early VMS developers jumped on it as a way tov > write much of the kernel. > > code for VMS - as opposed to writing it in > Macro-32.a >=20 > That's incorrect.o >=204 > In the early versions of VMS almost all the kernel > code was written int4 > what was called Macro-32 on release (the assembler > language was5 > codenamed MARS during development).  As I recall (Ig > would welcomea6 > correction) about the only kernel-type code that was > written in BLISS1 > in VMS V1 was the FILES-11 ACP - thanks to Andye > Goldstein - and, I6 > think, RMS-32.  Everything in the kernel proper that > was basicallyT1 > controlled by Dave Cutler and Dick Hustvedt waso > written in Macro-32.=20 2 > BLISS was mostly used in the various native-mode > utility programs.  I6 > was once told that some parts of VMS V1 were written > in "Brown" - thisa3 > being a hard to maintain version of Macro-32 thatu
 > was full off5 > impenetrable macros written by someone called Browni > (used for the DCLs0 > interpreter IIRC).  I believe the first kernel > System Service coder0 > that was written in BLISS was the redone image > activator in VMS V3 (orr > it may have been V4).y >=202 > There was a DEC internal policy (in the Software > Development Policies6 > and Procedures) dating from around the time that VMS > was born that allb2 > code would be written in BLISS unless there were > compelling reasons to 0 > use something else.  My understanding was that > Cutler argued that only 4 > by using Macro-32 could the kernel code be made to > have optimal4 > performance.  Given the reputation that Cutler had > for tweaking Macro$ > code that's altogether believable. >=20 > > The language itselfr5 > > never caught on.  It's kind of a strange language. > - it is an expressionm3 > > language, even though most people write it as aa > statement oriented language.3 > > The often complained about attribute is the "."m > dot indirection operator6 > > (you need to specify that you want the contents of > a location, not then > > address of the location).E >=204 > The dot operator is logically correct (or at least > you construct as1 > coherent argument to prove that it is) but it's  > quite true to say that- > it caused no end of problems for a carelesst > programmer.  Even though5 > in my software engineer days I considered myself an  > expert BLISS6 > programmer I still had the occasional slip.  The one > thing BLISS dido0 > not have was data types.  For most things that > wasn't a problem but itt1 > did allow dangerous things - like unconstrainedt > pointer arithmetic -1 > that strongly typed languages protect you from.s >=205 > > I once spent a few years writing a lot of BLISS -f > but I now only touch it to2 > > bugfix things.  Most new code is written in C. >=204 > When I write programs these days (I should explain > that since I lefte5 > DEC 9 years ago I've become a lawyer) I often use Ce
 > but I woulde6 > really, really like to have a BLISS compiler for the > x86/NT system Ij5 > play around with at home.  I have no ideal languagen > but Eiffel perhaps4 > comes close.  For practical production use I would > choose Borland's, > Delphi (which is an object-oriented Pascal > derivative). >=20 > jb     =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DaL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilw fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?& Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:18:26 +0100t9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>bY Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC o& Message-ID: <3C4D9EE2.EC924A3@aaa.com>   Here :- http://vms.process.com/fileserv-software.htmlb are two BLISS links.0 One to an article about BLISS, the other to some4 session notes ("Introduction to BLISS"). Both as PS.  ; Then there are BLISS kist and docs on the VMS freeware CDs.    Jan-Erik Sderholm.d   Fabio Cardoso wrote: >  > Dear Sirs  > ( > Is there a BLISS version for Windows ?' > A Visual BLISS for example ? Or using  > Visual Interdev ?  > 1 > Where can I learn it  ? Why should I learn it ?  > * > I never saw a documentation for teaching > BLISS in my life ? > 	 > Regards  >  > FC >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:58:34 +0100i5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de> Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC  + Message-ID: <3C4DA84A.26EC36F6@TeraPort.de>    Jeremy Barker wrote: > g > goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) wrote in message news:<3c3e24d1.37592805@news.process.com>... 8 > > On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:20:09 -0500, "Fred Kleinsorge"( > > <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: > > >eM > > >Just religion.  Larry will tell you that Ada is the best language.  UNIXeN > > >hacks will tell you C.  The kiddies will tell you JAVA.  I'm sure someone > > >still loves RPG-II. > > >X4 > > But we all know that objectively, BLISS is best. > >AO > > >The early VMS developers jumped on it as a way to write much of the kerneluN > > >code for VMS - as opposed to writing it in Macro-32.  The language itself > > >never caught on.e > >eP > > It never helped that DEC priced the compiler so high---second only to Ada inS > > the '80s.  If they'd given the compiler away, or at least made it as affordablee; > > as C, PLI, and others, it might have had a chance, IMO.  > H > I always thought that the exorbitant pricing of the BLISS compiler wasH > a mistake.  I think there was a lot of pressure internally to not sellE > it (it being seen as a competitive advantage) so the high price wasr# > probably intended as a deterrant.) >  > jb  D  exorbitant pricing of compilers is always a mistake if your primaryC business is selling hardware and if that depends on the quality andoG quantity of available applications. It is even worse when your hardwaree? is not "mainstream" and you are [almost] solely responsible ford providing the toolchain.  G  Sure, writing/maintaining the compilers is expensive. You just have to H set them against the value of having first class applications available.  F  In short, making developing applications for your platform exorbitantA expensive just another way of shooting your own foot. This is not / neccessarily limited to DEC/Compaq products ...s   Martin -- eB ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309r7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111l5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:48:55 +0000   From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.comY Subject: Buns, cakes and crumpets [was Re: Younger recruits versus experiencedveterans ( a: Message-ID: <OFEBD7C088.405ECFD0-ON00256B49.00464E61@btyp>  2 And of course 'batches' as used in Warwickshire...   ;^D.   Steve S         C cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) on 01/22/2002 12:09:41 PMp    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:dF From:      cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley), 22 January 2002,            12:09 p.m.y  E Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise  of compaq )e    6 According to Geoff McCaughan <geoffm@spam.hormel.com>:@ > >  Well, as it seems to work here... buns are roughly spheroid" > > and rolls roughly cylindrical. >tG > Well I'd have said that buns tend to be cake-like, and anything smallm > and made of bread is a roll.  G But there's still the ubiquitous "burger in a bun," which is distinctly E non-cakelike.  I also forgot to mention the third alternative, "bap,"hG which is rolled out whenever some non-local thinks that they're gettingiE the hang of the bun/roll confusion.  As far as I can tell, a bap is arF non-exchangable word for a bun when it's not a roll.  Or maybe when itB is a roll.  I suspect that the usage of bap, roll and bun probablyF varies according to the day of the week, the lunar cycle and maybe the weather.   Chris.          F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message hascG been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,)$ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have received K this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.@  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.i  I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire,iD RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:44:06 +0000r  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.comY Subject: Buns, cakes, crumpets and now teacakes [was Re: Younger recruits versusexperiencf: Message-ID: <OF55C24596.F284226E-ON00256B49.004B590C@btyp>  4 Surely it's only a teacake if it has currants in it?   ;^Dn   Steve St        6 greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk on 01/22/2002 09:06:07 AM    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc: C From:      greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk, 22 January 2002, 9:06 a.m.c  E Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demisea of compaq )r    E On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:53:52 +0000, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chrisp Hedley) sprachen:/  G >What's a "bun," though?  Being from the Northern Wastelands of the UK, 2 >I call anything that's bready and spheroid a bun,   That's a teacake, you fool!h  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  H if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's@ kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side5 effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche)i          F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message hashG been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,n$ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have receivedoK this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.w  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.h  I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire,wD RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:40:15 +0000n( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>Y Subject: Re: Buns, cakes, crumpets and now teacakes [was Re: Younger recruits versusexperh) Message-ID: <3C4DA3FF.E692C93F@127.0.0.1>l  ! Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:o > 6 > Surely it's only a teacake if it has currants in it? >  > ;^Dt  & Doesn't that make it a Hot Cross Bun ?  ! (If it has the X on it of course)y     -- t( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com2   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 08:16:36 -08000 From: wlewis@mailbag.com (William Barnett-Lewis)/ Subject: Re: C++ appears to be available online5= Message-ID: <63f0b8f5.0201220816.7a12d529@posting.google.com>a  e "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org> wrote in message news:<jz338.284$PZ4.5117@news.cpqcorp.net>... L > Yes, hobbiests are encouraged to download the kit. Hopefully in the futureL > there will be enough room on the CD for it. For commericial users, keep in- > mind that Compaq C++ is a licensed product.w  E This may be an FAQ, but I haven't seen it yet as a VMS/VAX hobbyist.    B Is there a VAX version of this kit available as well? Or is this a% product that is only availble on AXP?m   Thanks,k   Williamc   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:09:15 -0500 , From: "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org>/ Subject: Re: C++ appears to be available online 1 Message-ID: <01h38.311$PZ4.6325@news.cpqcorp.net>w   Is the question:  G Is there a VAX version of the C++ kit? Or is there a VAX version of theO hobbyist program for Vax?   L I do not know how the Hobbyist program works. The last release of Compaq C++J for Vax for over a year ago. If there is a hobbyist program for VAX and itI does include a C++ license. We could look into putting that kit up on theb Web.  	 Ken Block-
 Compaq C++  = "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com> wrote in messagea7 news:63f0b8f5.0201220816.7a12d529@posting.google.com... 9 > "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org> wrote in messaget- news:<jz338.284$PZ4.5117@news.cpqcorp.net>...eG > > Yes, hobbiests are encouraged to download the kit. Hopefully in theo futureK > > there will be enough room on the CD for it. For commericial users, keep  in/ > > mind that Compaq C++ is a licensed product.  >oF > This may be an FAQ, but I haven't seen it yet as a VMS/VAX hobbyist. >nD > Is there a VAX version of this kit available as well? Or is this a' > product that is only availble on AXP?  >t	 > Thanks,e > 	 > William.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:24:24 +0000 (UTC)2 From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk/ Subject: Re: C++ appears to be available onlinei+ Message-ID: <a2kaoo$r4q$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   ` In article <01h38.311$PZ4.6325@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org> writes: >Is the question:o >CH >Is there a VAX version of the C++ kit? Or is there a VAX version of the >hobbyist program for Vax? >2M >I do not know how the Hobbyist program works. The last release of Compaq C++nK >for Vax for over a year ago. If there is a hobbyist program for VAX and itoJ >does include a C++ license. We could look into putting that kit up on the >Web.c >t
 >Ken Block >Compaq C++  >o  K There is a VAX version of the hobbyist program - indeed I believe the Alpha  one grew out of the Vax one.  ' see http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/  B  4 and the second question on the OpenVMS Hobbyist Faq   ) http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/faq.html   n  % The list of licenses provided is on  u  2 http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/show_license.html    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University  > >"William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com> wrote in message8 >news:63f0b8f5.0201220816.7a12d529@posting.google.com...: >> "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org> wrote in message. >news:<jz338.284$PZ4.5117@news.cpqcorp.net>...H >> > Yes, hobbiests are encouraged to download the kit. Hopefully in the >future L >> > there will be enough room on the CD for it. For commericial users, keep >inf0 >> > mind that Compaq C++ is a licensed product. >>G >> This may be an FAQ, but I haven't seen it yet as a VMS/VAX hobbyist.g >>E >> Is there a VAX version of this kit available as well? Or is this an( >> product that is only availble on AXP? >>
 >> Thanks, >>
 >> William >s >e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:40:25 GMTn  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>8 Subject: Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse!+ Message-ID: <3C4D177F.B6C69378@prodigy.net>    Dave Gudewicz wrote: > 3 > The company with the most patents last year?  IBM   2 How many of those were significant to computing?     >  > Not technical?  I think not. > 	 > Dave...f > / > "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in message ' > news:3C4A77A2.10B4003F@prodigy.net...sM > > I consider IBM more a financial services company than anything technical.f > >  > > Bob Ceculski wrote:n > > >rC > > > What makes IBM profitable?  It is not just software services. H > > > It is the hardware!  When you provide a superior hardware platformG > > > (power) that can run software that is secure, can scale well, andnE > > > run 24x7, then software services soar ... Capellas is doing thetF > > > opposite, he is giving away the industries best hardware (alpha)J > > > to a competitor and thinks software services will rake in the dough,H > > > except, because your competitors are all selling the same hardwareF > > > platform, you have just entered the same low dollar, high volumeG > > > market that pc's are in right now!  It's the hardware that drivesTG > > > software and services dummy!  Now power is not superior to alpha,3F > > > but it will be to itanium ... after ev7 moves aside for itanium,D > > > IBM will take over.  IBM has got out of the pc business.  TheyK > > > know the future is the high end and server consolidation (mainframes)aH > > > are the future.  Now either Capellas and the whole board at CompaqC > > > are total idiots or they actually work secretly for intel andy? > > > microsoft.  Which is it?  I tend to believe the later ...a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:14:12 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> 8 Subject: Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse!, Message-ID: <3C4D5794.D38622CB@videotron.ca>  
 cjt wrote:5 > > The company with the most patents last year?  IBMs > 2 > How many of those were significant to computing?  I How much does Compaq spend in R&D compared to IBM (in percentage of total N spending). ?  With alpha and tru64 gone, the only R&D Compaq will have will beL VMS and tandem systems (software and hardware). The rest will just be clones/ of intel designs for "industry standard" stuff.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:16:36 -0600l1 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> 8 Subject: Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse!8 Message-ID: <a2js9l$7re$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  - "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messaged% news:3C4D177F.B6C69378@prodigy.net...o > Dave Gudewicz wrote: > >c5 > > The company with the most patents last year?  IBM  >p2 > How many of those were significant to computing? >  > >u  > > Not technical?  I think not. > >  > > Dave...  > > 1 > > "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in message ) > > news:3C4A77A2.10B4003F@prodigy.net...sD > > > I consider IBM more a financial services company than anything
 technical. > > >o > > > Bob Ceculski wrote:t > > > >mE > > > > What makes IBM profitable?  It is not just software services. J > > > > It is the hardware!  When you provide a superior hardware platformI > > > > (power) that can run software that is secure, can scale well, andiG > > > > run 24x7, then software services soar ... Capellas is doing thewH > > > > opposite, he is giving away the industries best hardware (alpha)L > > > > to a competitor and thinks software services will rake in the dough,J > > > > except, because your competitors are all selling the same hardwareH > > > > platform, you have just entered the same low dollar, high volumeI > > > > market that pc's are in right now!  It's the hardware that driveshI > > > > software and services dummy!  Now power is not superior to alpha,=H > > > > but it will be to itanium ... after ev7 moves aside for itanium,F > > > > IBM will take over.  IBM has got out of the pc business.  They@ > > > > know the future is the high end and server consolidation (mainframes)J > > > > are the future.  Now either Capellas and the whole board at CompaqE > > > > are total idiots or they actually work secretly for intel andiA > > > > microsoft.  Which is it?  I tend to believe the later ...-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:17:25 -0600=1 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com>:8 Subject: Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse!8 Message-ID: <a2jsb5$7ts$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>  4 I didn't look at them, but my guess would be "most".   Dave...r  - "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in message,% news:3C4D177F.B6C69378@prodigy.net...r > Dave Gudewicz wrote: > >P5 > > The company with the most patents last year?  IBMe >e2 > How many of those were significant to computing? >  > >   > > Not technical?  I think not. > >i > > Dave...s > > 1 > > "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messaget) > > news:3C4A77A2.10B4003F@prodigy.net... D > > > I consider IBM more a financial services company than anything
 technical. > > >? > > > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > > > >-E > > > > What makes IBM profitable?  It is not just software services.rJ > > > > It is the hardware!  When you provide a superior hardware platformI > > > > (power) that can run software that is secure, can scale well, andgG > > > > run 24x7, then software services soar ... Capellas is doing thetH > > > > opposite, he is giving away the industries best hardware (alpha)L > > > > to a competitor and thinks software services will rake in the dough,J > > > > except, because your competitors are all selling the same hardwareH > > > > platform, you have just entered the same low dollar, high volumeI > > > > market that pc's are in right now!  It's the hardware that driveslI > > > > software and services dummy!  Now power is not superior to alpha,.H > > > > but it will be to itanium ... after ev7 moves aside for itanium,F > > > > IBM will take over.  IBM has got out of the pc business.  They@ > > > > know the future is the high end and server consolidation (mainframes)J > > > > are the future.  Now either Capellas and the whole board at CompaqE > > > > are total idiots or they actually work secretly for intel andsA > > > > microsoft.  Which is it?  I tend to believe the later ...a   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:14:26 GMTt* From: Steven Whatley <swhatley@blkbox.com>% Subject: Re: ClipArt of VAX equipmente@ Message-ID: <R5h38.20386$fg.1140629@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  - Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote: P > There is (was?) a DEC internal VISIO library with all equipments inside. MaybeL > this library file could be made available on the next OpenVMS freeware CD?  J I've checked Compaq's OpenVMS site and can't find such a page.  I know oneJ existed at some point in time because we have some images for our VAX 7610 and other equipment.   Thanks,v Steven   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:27:07 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>% Subject: Re: ClipArt of VAX equipmenta) Message-ID: <3C4DA0EB.1E2926B3@127.0.0.1>y   Steven Whatley wrote:  > / > Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote: R > > There is (was?) a DEC internal VISIO library with all equipments inside. MaybeN > > this library file could be made available on the next OpenVMS freeware CD? > L > I've checked Compaq's OpenVMS site and can't find such a page.  I know oneL > existed at some point in time because we have some images for our VAX 7610 > and other equipment.  H I've used the visio clipart of Compaq - DEC 1 to 5. No idea where it was= sourced from but we've a number of ex DECcies working for us.u  C There is NO Infoserver 150, I used a Mv 3100 IIRC and stuck a label0	 under it!6  1 Anyone using the 'Golden Eggs' software in anger?i   -- .( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:46:20 -0000d* From: Andrew Robinson <arobinson@hspg.com>% Subject: RE: ClipArt of VAX equipment M Message-ID: <CDA4BAD1E10ED41181AC00508B6051D3C3E597@grumpy.internal.hspg.com>d  G The Compaq/Digital Visio clipart/Stencils can be found on the Microsoftc Visio 2000 Enterprise Disk 2 CDoI I also believe it was a second or extra disk for the Technical version oftI Visio during the first release after Microsoft had it. Earlier versions I ! think it was a purchasable extra.u     Regardsl   Andrew Robinsonu  L +--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------+,I PC's require at least 2 reboots and the plug pulling out every day for 30i seconds before working.lK Swearing will upset and confuse the poor machine and may mean you will haven to start again.rI Swear really badly, and your machine may require months of therapy to getn over the shock       Steven Whatley wrote:f > / > Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote: L > > There is (was?) a DEC internal VISIO library with all equipments inside. Maybe_J > > this library file could be made available on the next OpenVMS freeware CD?e > L > I've checked Compaq's OpenVMS site and can't find such a page.  I know oneL > existed at some point in time because we have some images for our VAX 7610 > and other equipment.  H I've used the visio clipart of Compaq - DEC 1 to 5. No idea where it was= sourced from but we've a number of ex DECcies working for us.n  C There is NO Infoserver 150, I used a Mv 3100 IIRC and stuck a label 	 under it!   1 Anyone using the 'Golden Eggs' software in anger?L   --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comd   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:50:28 +0100m  From: "nesa" <nebojsam@eunet.yu>- Subject: Compact disk recordable drive on VMSa( Message-ID: <a2j94k$fuj$1@news.eunet.yu>  @ Please help me with  using compact disk recordable drive on VMS. Thanks,r Nebojsa.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:56:04 -0500R+ From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@intel.com>-Y Subject: Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses   allcredibic8 Message-ID: <2c2r4uckcilu50mkrccr5sef90297cfd47@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:29:54 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>c wrote:  O >I read something about how Compaq would no longer be developping VMS compilersnN >and that once the port is done, they would essentially be in maintenance mode$ >with just updates to follow the OS. >@ >What is the scoop on this ? >e: >Who would be working on the Alpha compilers from now on ? >rN >Would the Intel compilers continue to be "ported" to VMS for IA64 machines on >an ongoing basis ?   E There are two separate issues here.  What follows is my understanding-A of the situation and is not to be taken as a formal commitment bye either Compaq or Intel:d  A First are the OpenVMS Alpha compilers.  These are indeed entering F "maintenance mode".  Exactly what this means depends on the particularD compiler, but in general there will be a last new release (Fortran's@ 7.5 will be out in March), and then occasional, but increasinglyB infrequent, bug fix ECO kits.  There will be both Intel and CompaqC engineers working on these compilers, the details vary by language.u  B For OpenVMS IA64, Intel and Compaq are jointly developing compilerF products and these would continue to have new releases as scheduled by@ Compaq. It is not intended to be a "one-shot".  Intel and CompaqA engineers would be working together to create these releases, ther details again vary by language.        Steve Lionel Compaq Fortran Engineering Intel Corporation 
 Nashua, NH  . Compaq Fortran - http://www.compaq.com/fortranK Intel Fortran - http://developer.intel.com/software/products/compilers/f50/r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:20:26 -05004* From: John Reagan <john.reagan@compaq.com>Y Subject: Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses  allcredibilB) Message-ID: <3C4D914A.4050003@compaq.com>R   JF Mezei wrote:   P > I read something about how Compaq would no longer be developping VMS compilersO > and that once the port is done, they would essentially be in maintenance modet% > with just updates to follow the OS.n    I We still have compiler folks here at Compaq (and will remain at Compaq). uD   As for language evelopment, we will still made language additions  where needed and appropriate.-  G For code generation on Alpha, the version of GEM that we have supports pI all current and future Alpha chips.  We have the resources or agreements tG in place for future bug fixes.  However, given that no new Alphas will gH be appearing, it makes sense that the Alpha version of GEM will go into B maintenance mode.  We've squeezed most of the blood from the rock.  G For code generation in IA-64, the version of GEM that will be used for  D the compilers generates reasonable IA-64 code.  Could it be better? G Sure.  Will it get better?  We'll try our best given the resources. It k3 will certainly be supported and bugs will be fixed.n  C   For some languages (Fortran, C, C++), we will eventually provide -H Intel-based compilers that use their code-generator.  How often will we G pick up the "current" Intel version and repackage it is being decided. eG The other languages (BLISS, Pascal, COBOL, BASIC, Macro) will continue sH to use the IA-64 version of GEM for the forseeable future.  All will be 4 supported (ie, bug fixes) and enhanced as necessary.     >  > What is the scoop on this ?  > ; > Who would be working on the Alpha compilers from now on ?r > O > Would the Intel compilers continue to be "ported" to VMS for IA64 machines on  > an ongoing basis ? >        -- q John Reagani' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadero   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:57:24 +0100 $ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>Y Subject: Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses  allcredibile/ Message-ID: <CRg38.130$EU.3651@news.get2net.dk>   G And how exactly are Intels code generators going to solve all the itemsr mentioned inH http://www.alphapowered.com/presentations/alpha_ia64.pdf ?  Or do we nowL simply say these things do not matter because Intel will just make a process
 improvement ?a   Inquiring minds ...    Dweeb    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:08:54 +0100-2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>Y Subject: Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses  allcredibilaG Message-ID: <3c4d9ca4$0$34124$5039e797@newsreader01.highway.telekom.at>e  5 "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com> schrieb im Newsbeitragk) news:CRg38.130$EU.3651@news.get2net.dk...iI > And how exactly are Intels code generators going to solve all the items  > mentioned inJ > http://www.alphapowered.com/presentations/alpha_ia64.pdf ?  Or do we nowF > simply say these things do not matter because Intel will just make a processp > improvement ?d >o > Inquiring minds ...i >s > Dweebl >o >i >     C As you can see by just replacing the link - or is it just me who ish
 redirected tor  ) http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/v   Ren   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:14:37 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>pY Subject: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibility!)p; Message-ID: <01KDDFPUVI5I8ZI8TR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>b  E > It's my understanding that all the compiler people needed are stilltC > there.  They were not part of the "Alpha chip" people movement to06 > Intel, that was restricted to the hardware designers  ; The Fortran people definitely went to Intel.  I can't read 1F comp.lang.fortran at the moment; the good Steve Lionel used to pop up  here---perhaps he can comment.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:39:04 -0500 + From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@intel.com>cY Subject: Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibilig8 Message-ID: <lkqq4u48mrikmpk7697b5h7gi9u8lcne8d@4ax.com>  8 On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:14:37 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbig+ <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:-  F >> It's my understanding that all the compiler people needed are stillD >> there.  They were not part of the "Alpha chip" people movement to7 >> Intel, that was restricted to the hardware designersn > < >The Fortran people definitely went to Intel.  I can't read G >comp.lang.fortran at the moment; the good Steve Lionel used to pop up   >here---perhaps he can comment.   B A lot of our compiler people did (or will soon) transfer to Intel.> Not all.  The entire Fortran group did.  Intel and Compaq have< agreements to provide development support for Compaq-brandedB compilers.  From the users' perspective, the color of the compiler" engineer's badge shouldn't matter.  D The initial statement is still fairly accurate - the compiler people are still here.p       Steve Lionel Compaq Fortran Engineering Intel Corporation 
 Nashua, NH  . Compaq Fortran - http://www.compaq.com/fortranK Intel Fortran - http://developer.intel.com/software/products/compilers/f50/)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:29:54 -0500,% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>sY Subject: Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibilia, Message-ID: <3C4D775C.FAF9541B@videotron.ca>   Steve Lionel wrote:rF > The initial statement is still fairly accurate - the compiler people > are still here.3    N I read something about how Compaq would no longer be developping VMS compilersM and that once the port is done, they would essentially be in maintenance moder# with just updates to follow the OS.a   What is the scoop on this ?h  9 Who would be working on the Alpha compilers from now on ?   M Would the Intel compilers continue to be "ported" to VMS for IA64 machines ons an ongoing basis ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:44:45 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> Y Subject: Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibili , Message-ID: <3C4D96EE.EE4CDB98@videotron.ca>   Steve Lionel wrote:oD > For OpenVMS IA64, Intel and Compaq are jointly developing compilerH > products and these would continue to have new releases as scheduled byB > Compaq. It is not intended to be a "one-shot".  Intel and CompaqC > engineers would be working together to create these releases, thes! > details again vary by language.w  L Is it fair to state then that over time, having a common code base for AlphaL and IA64 will become increasingly difficult due to the evolving compilert on. one platform and the mature one on the other ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:15:52 +0100@9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>eY Subject: Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibili ' Message-ID: <3C4D9E48.D7CFE573@aaa.com>t  , Hm, "over time" there will not be any Alpha./ So it more or less depends on the definition of? "over time", I suppose...a   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    JF Mezei wrote:e >  > Steve Lionel wrote:eF > > For OpenVMS IA64, Intel and Compaq are jointly developing compilerJ > > products and these would continue to have new releases as scheduled byD > > Compaq. It is not intended to be a "one-shot".  Intel and CompaqE > > engineers would be working together to create these releases, thee# > > details again vary by language.r > N > Is it fair to state then that over time, having a common code base for AlphaN > and IA64 will become increasingly difficult due to the evolving compilert on0 > one platform and the mature one on the other ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:50:28 +0100 5 From: Martin Knoblauch <Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de>tY Subject: Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses allcredibili + Message-ID: <3C4DA664.BF546B2F@TeraPort.de>t   "Ren=E9 Schelbaum" wrote:  > =    > =a  E > As you can see by just replacing the link - or is it just me who is  > redirected ton > =.  + > http://www.compaq.com/hps/ipf-enterprise/B > =l   > Ren=E9      no, you are not alone :-((s   Martin -- =  B ------------------------------------------------------------------B Martin Knoblauch         |    email:  Martin.Knoblauch@TeraPort.de7 TeraPort GmbH            |    Phone:  +49-89-510857-309k7 C+ITS                    |    Fax:    +49-89-510857-111?5 http://www.teraport.de   |    Mobile: +49-170-4904759-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:47:58 +0100z  From: "nesa" <nebojsam@eunet.yu>- Subject: Configuring Dec net over serial porte( Message-ID: <a2j8vv$fto$1@news.eunet.yu>  K Please help me with configuring Dec net over serial  sinhronous line on VMS  for Compaq Alpha server DS20.r Thanks Nebojsai   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:17:12 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>e1 Subject: Re: Configuring Dec net over serial ports, Message-ID: <3C4D5848.6EEB6EDE@videotron.ca>   nesa wrote:n > M > Please help me with configuring Dec net over serial  sinhronous line on VMSt > for Compaq Alpha server DS20.i  I The DECNET 4 manual has step by step instructions on how to setup variousiF types of links, including DDCMP lines over serial ports. Check out theM http://www.openvms.compaq.com web site for the vms documentation and look for  the decnet-4 manual.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:38:35 +0100h= From: Oswald Knoppers <Oswald.Knoppers@contrastmediagroep.nl>w1 Subject: Re: Configuring Dec net over serial port 5 Message-ID: <3C4D5D4B.7B28A95C@contrastmediagroep.nl>a   JF Mezei wrote:  > 
 > nesa wrote:  > >sO > > Please help me with configuring Dec net over serial  sinhronous line on VMSo! > > for Compaq Alpha server DS20.e > K > The DECNET 4 manual has step by step instructions on how to setup various H > types of links, including DDCMP lines over serial ports. Check out theO > http://www.openvms.compaq.com web site for the vms documentation and look foru > the decnet-4 manual.  F I seem to remember that with DECnet IV DDCMP is only supported on VAX.   Regards,   Oswald   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:14:23 GMTi4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>1 Subject: Re: Configuring Dec net over serial port 0 Message-ID: <3C4DAAD2.B7DA08D6@blueyonder.co.uk>   Oswald Knoppers wrote: >  > JF Mezei wrote:  > >t > > nesa wrote:e > > > Q > > > Please help me with configuring Dec net over serial  sinhronous line on VMSv# > > > for Compaq Alpha server DS20.j > >RM > > The DECNET 4 manual has step by step instructions on how to setup various1J > > types of links, including DDCMP lines over serial ports. Check out theQ > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com web site for the vms documentation and look fora > > the decnet-4 manual. > H > I seem to remember that with DECnet IV DDCMP is only supported on VAX.  D and you need a routing DECNET licence if you want to run DECNET over ethernet as well.i      -- u Tim.Llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk     C Standard disclaimer applies. My views in no way represent those of a! my employers or service provider.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:33:52 +0000g  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.comY Subject: Cooking in Salem [was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( wasThe r: Message-ID: <OFC29ECD4B.EC2AFCD3-ON00256B49.0065E5B4@btyp>  C Well if it was bought in Salem, perhaps it was magicked rather thanx	 cooked...r   ;^DC   Steve S'        D "Rupert Pigott" <Darkb00ng@btinternet.com> on 01/22/2002 01:58:04 PM    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:vH From:      "Rupert Pigott" <Darkb00ng@btinternet.com>, 22 January 2002,=              1:58 p.m.  H Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The       demis= e  of compaq )s    ? Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote in messagea2 news:466q4u4n3l0dussc3muunve1ldrssc7dtj@4ax.com... [SNIP]A > North American "English muffins" are more like a bready varietys  ; I'll put it this way, those were the only things which were,? vaguely close to what my limey definition of a muffin was. Evenp/ then the corn syrup kinda killed the effect. :(e  < > of British scones. Said scones may vary in shape, size and@ > texture from flat (in both senses) potato scones to puffy soda@ > scones. My Gran used to cook all kinds of scones and dumplings   Don't forget Cheese scones !  = No, I wasn't able to find a close match to my limey idea of ae= scone or crumpet in the USA either. On the other hand I notedr; that in general your Bagels were a ton better than the ones- available to us over here.  8 The ones we got from Safeway were like Terry Pratchett's; Dwarf Bread. You could leave out in the car for a couple ofo: days and they still weren't (any more) stale than when you7 bought em. The down side was that they were practicallyl& impossible to eat unless you nuked em.  < Actually, I left Oregon the first time thinking that America< really didn't understand the concept of bread full stop. But; then just before I left the second time we popped into some 8 freaky-trendy-organic-bread-emporium thingy in Salem and; bought some absolutely fantastic bread (still warm from thep= oven). They did all kinds of variants too, Pesto was my fave.a< Just ripped it open while it was still warm, spread a littleA butter on it and wolfed it down. =A3&(!"*(!"=A3 lovely it was. :)    Cheers,  Rupert              F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beH confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message has=  H been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,=  $ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee i= scH not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have received=  H this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the mess= age.  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.R  H Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshir= e,D RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041. =J   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:17:24 +0100 (MET)h9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>p* Subject: Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker); Message-ID: <01KDDFS3U8LO8ZI8TR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>s  G > I'me sure there is / was a DCL compiler. If I remember correctly DCL kI > code was changed to Fortran, and then compiled. But it has been a long n > time since I read about it.   E Yes, I've heard of this as well.  I also heard of a "compiler" which eD converted DCL to optimised DCL, so that it would process faster.  I D don't know if it was much more than running it line by line through H F$EDIT with "COMPRESS,TRIM,UNCOMMENT,UPCASE" as the edit string, though.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:47:13 +0100 $ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>* Subject: Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker). Message-ID: <k3e38.88$EU.2737@news.get2net.dk>  K Channel Island Computing is a name that comes to mind.  It has been a long,n
 long time.   Dweeb.  9 "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> wrote in messagep  news:3C4CFECC.876075E3@gmx.ch...I > Before starting a DCL compiler which of course will compile nothing buto ratherI > produce some cross references, maps, variables, channels and open/closewG > inventory, etc, I would like to know if this has been done by someoneg around > here already.l >o= > I did a scan of the V4 and V5 freeware CDs without success.p >FH > To check long procedures, of course I use DCL_CHECKER, which is to DCL what5 > GraphicConverter is to photo editing on the MAC :-)- >-K > But to build a documentation of a thousand lines DCL procedure, I thought. ag1 > (kind of) "compiler" would be more than useful.E >aJ > Syntax: $ DCLCOMP myproc /cross/map/noobject oooops... no, not /noobject >0	 > Thanks,m >  > D. > --J >   ----------------------------------------------------------------------G > MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmlbG > Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670i1 > 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.a >aJ > Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseJ > On parle franais Man spricht Deutsch se habla Castellano English spoken   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:49:47 +0000   From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com* Subject: Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker): Message-ID: <OF2F558F36.3C194055-ON00256B49.004BAFB6@btyp>  K ISTR that this tool was available on DECUS tapes around the early 1990's oreG so. There were some minor nitpicks with it, it didn't handle everything & well, which I guess is to be expected.   Cheers   Steve Se        2 Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> on 01/22/2002 06:46:49 AM    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:t? From:      Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>, 22 January 2002, 6:46 a.m.f  ! Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker)a    D I'me sure there is / was a DCL compiler. If I remember correctly DCLF code was changed to Fortran, and then compiled. But it has been a long time since I read about it.n   Dirk   Didier Morandi wrote:   H >Before starting a DCL compiler which of course will compile nothing but ratherH >produce some cross references, maps, variables, channels and open/closeF >inventory, etc, I would like to know if this has been done by someone around >here already. >l< >I did a scan of the V4 and V5 freeware CDs without success. >tG >To check long procedures, of course I use DCL_CHECKER, which is to DCL  what4 >GraphicConverter is to photo editing on the MAC :-) >aJ >But to build a documentation of a thousand lines DCL procedure, I thought a 0 >(kind of) "compiler" would be more than useful. >cI >Syntax: $ DCLCOMP myproc /cross/map/noobject oooops... no, not /noobjecte >e >Thanks, >g >D.0 >.            F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message haseG been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,-$ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have receivedlK this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.o  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.e  I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire,eD RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:14:41 -0500n  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com* Subject: Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker)4 Message-ID: <C2256B49.004DE3C0.00@jklh21.valmet.com>  > --0__=yscb8SBrbN7uGBdCQV3ciGTqT6c7nmymSc5yFbwhdQkJPxqhcnOBqHvB* Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline       H There was a DCL to FORTRAN product some years ago to use when you wantedM very fast execution or to "install with privileges" some procedure.  I do nott know ifs it survived the Alpha.        / Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch on 01/22/2002 12:55:24 AMn  ' Please respond to Didier.Morandi@gmx.cht   To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.coma cc: ' Subject:  DCL "compiler"? (not checker)n      > --0__=yscb8SBrbN7uGBdCQV3ciGTqT6c7nmymSc5yFbwhdQkJPxqhcnOBqHvB, Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inlinen+ Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printablee      H Before starting a DCL compiler which of course will compile nothing but=  rather:H produce some cross references, maps, variables, channels and open/close=  H inventory, etc, I would like to know if this has been done by someone a= roundg
 here already.m  ; I did a scan of the V4 and V5 freeware CDs without success.:  H To check long procedures, of course I use DCL_CHECKER, which is to DCL = what3 GraphicConverter is to photo editing on the MAC :-)e  H But to build a documentation of a thousand lines DCL procedure, I thoug= ht a/ (kind of) "compiler" would be more than useful.   H Syntax: $ DCLCOMP myproc /cross/map/noobject oooops... no, not /noobjec= tc   Thanks,r   D. --H   ---------------------------------------------------------------------= -eE MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmleE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670e/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.b  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS Expertis= eiH On parle fran=E7ais Man spricht Deutsch se habla Castellano English spo= kene         =i  @ --0__=yscb8SBrbN7uGBdCQV3ciGTqT6c7nmymSc5yFbwhdQkJPxqhcnOBqHvB--   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:30:04 -0500p* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>* Subject: RE: DCL "compiler"? (not checker)- Message-ID: <0033000048736119000002L092*@MHS>   
 =0ADidier:   Egad, my memory still works.  * I remembered the company name from the old7 DEC (or it may have even been VAX) Professional days...s   Channel Islands Software--  . http://www.openvms.compaq.pl/partners/channel/   Hope this helps.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETs' Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 1:50 AM B To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET* Subject: RE: DCL "compiler"? (not checker)    D I'me sure there is / was a DCL compiler. If I remember correctly DCLF code was changed to Fortran, and then compiled. But it has been a long time since I read about it.o   Dirk   Didier Morandi wrote:s  H >Before starting a DCL compiler which of course will compile nothing bu= t ratherH >produce some cross references, maps, variables, channels and open/clos= euH >inventory, etc, I would like to know if this has been done by someone = around >here already. >o< >I did a scan of the V4 and V5 freeware CDs without success. >oH >To check long procedures, of course I use DCL_CHECKER, which is to DCL=  what 4 >GraphicConverter is to photo editing on the MAC :-) >dH >But to build a documentation of a thousand lines DCL procedure, I thou= ght ac0 >(kind of) "compiler" would be more than useful. >aH >Syntax: $ DCLCOMP myproc /cross/map/noobject oooops... no, not /noobje= ct >r >Thanks, >A >D.l >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:01:47 +0100a2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)* Subject: Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker); Message-ID: <3c4d8ceb.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>a  : Phillip Helbig (HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com) wrote:% > I also heard of a "compiler" which  F > converted DCL to optimised DCL, so that it would process faster.  I F > don't know if it was much more than running it line by line through J > F$EDIT with "COMPRESS,TRIM,UNCOMMENT,UPCASE" as the edit string, though.  @ I guess that would then be Charlie Hammond's DCL_DIET (on the v4
 Freeware CD).    cu,r   Martin -- aA                      | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmero. Microsoft's answer   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deA to OpenVMS is        |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/h5 Windows NT 10.0.     | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.der   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:31:38 +0000f% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>sD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!8 Message-ID: <4laq4uk66so17hc68ad3n07uedsp8b62td@4ax.com>  D On 21 Jan 2002 10:34:37 -0800, davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) wrote:   >u >TE >	Give me a break.  Of course Gartner has a negative opinion.  That'saE >their job is to have negative opinions.  Gartner has been predictingr
 >the deathB >of OpenVMS for over 10 years.  And they've been wrong for over 10
 >years.  Thisn  D That's because it was approximately ten years ago Digital managementF started telling Gartner/Aberdeen Group/EDS  and others that VMS was onC the way out. It was Digital who were wrong. Gartner merely repeated-" what they were told by its owners.  E And that is *still* the case today. It amazes me that even though the D Aberdeen Group's *senior* analyst popped up in comp.os.vms to defendD their belief that HP will cancel VMS so many people remain in denialF that the real reason for their views on HP's likely actions is becauseD that's what they were told. Why do you think he told us here that ifF we wanted to see VMS saved we had to write to the HP and Compaq boards - not VMS management.?  D >should be pointed out to them. Repeatedly.  OpenVMS has survived in	 >spite ofSF >their negative press before, and will again.  Instead of preaching to >the  E It was Digital who said that VMS would have dwindled to far less than:C 200,000 systems by Y2K. It was Digital who said "There is no futureEF for VMS on the desktop". It was Digital who created "Affinity" to push= VMS sites towards NT. It was Digital who said "VMS was a finesF operating system in its time but NT is the future". It was Digital whoE phoned m up in 1993 to query my order for VMS Alpha systems asking ifoF there was a mistake and I really meant Unix. It was Digital who causedE orders for VMS alphaservers to be canceled over my head by telling my-D university's senior management I was living in the past with VMS. It@ was Digital who refused to counter that statement by local salesC despite the efforts of VMS engineering in Livingston (Edinburgh) tor: get a high level statement backing VMS to the university.   B Don't shoot the messenger. Go after the senior management who feed them this crap.   E Oh and what does wearing a VMS license plate around one's neck really / signify? Perhaps you should think about this...e    "Ah! well a-day! what evil looks Had I from old and young!t# Instead of the cross, the Albatrosse About my neck was hung.    -n ...l  " The self same moment I could pray; And from my neck so free  The Albatross fell off, and sank Like lead into the sea." a  3 - The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, Samuel Coleridgea ...2 -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:48:46 +0000n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>sD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!8 Message-ID: <ajcq4u0l9ubvirkosb6ktt1ksdo468r0s3@4ax.com>  D On 21 Jan 2002 19:47:25 -0800, davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) wrote:  H >	Besides making up stories about Compaq trying to covertly kill OpenVMSQ >and move everyone to NT by some evil plot with some Gartner cohorts, think aboutDM >the simple and more likely truth - Gartner Analyists are clueless twits thateP >do not have a clue about OpenVMS, never have, never will.  They hate it becauseO >they don't understand it.  And they're just pissed because after over a decadee( >of OpenVMS obituaries, it's still here.  F So I should ignore the fact that senior analysts from two out of threeB of Gartner/Aberdeen/EDS have told me personally that senior Compaq@ personnel continue to maintain the line that VMS is being slowlyE phased out? I should continue to ignore it even though one is pro-VMS.3 and wants to see it saved but cannot post publicly?R  D Your logic is based on one thing only. You don't believe that Compaq: senior management are liars or clueless twits. You are notF unintelligent therefore you are reconciling what Gartner et al. say byE deciding it is "them" who are "clueless twits that do not have a clueo about OpenVMS".8  @ Can't you, at the very least, see we have a point worth thinking@ about? Why don't you contact Gartner directly and speak to theirC senior analysts? You might be sunrises what they say off the recorda( and just how clued up they actually are. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:59:38 +0000s% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> D Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!8 Message-ID: <1pdq4uc0221nvuubgk1vqn9e3lo4nupagt@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 00:31:27 -0500, Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net>n wrote:  > >In article <e565ed03.0201211947.285814f2@posting.google.com>,. > davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) wrote: >fC >> 	I still think he got a bum rap...  Palmer was a CEO that shoulds  >> have been ousted, but wasn't. >mH >Palmer was hired to do what he did.  You want to place blame, do so on  >the BoD that hired him.  F Can anyone recall exactly when Olsen said: "I didn't have two children@ just to kill the first-born" when a plan was first put to him to  emphasize Unix and downplay VMS?  @ How long between that statement and his being dumped by the BOD? -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:32:18 +0100t$ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>D Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!. Message-ID: <4Zc38.74$EU.2340@news.get2net.dk>   Alan,t  I The number plate reference also gave me an instant recognition factor forj Coleridge.  Good call !o9 Probably a little too erudite for the local crowd though.m   Dweebi2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:4laq4uk66so17hc68ad3n07uedsp8b62td@4ax.com...F > On 21 Jan 2002 10:34:37 -0800, davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) > wrote: >s > >  > >tG > > Give me a break.  Of course Gartner has a negative opinion.  That's G > >their job is to have negative opinions.  Gartner has been predicting_ > >the deathD > >of OpenVMS for over 10 years.  And they've been wrong for over 10 > >years.  Thisf >tF > That's because it was approximately ten years ago Digital managementH > started telling Gartner/Aberdeen Group/EDS  and others that VMS was onE > the way out. It was Digital who were wrong. Gartner merely repeated $ > what they were told by its owners. >oG > And that is *still* the case today. It amazes me that even though thenF > Aberdeen Group's *senior* analyst popped up in comp.os.vms to defendF > their belief that HP will cancel VMS so many people remain in denialH > that the real reason for their views on HP's likely actions is becauseF > that's what they were told. Why do you think he told us here that ifH > we wanted to see VMS saved we had to write to the HP and Compaq boards > - not VMS management.? >iF > >should be pointed out to them. Repeatedly.  OpenVMS has survived in > >spite of2H > >their negative press before, and will again.  Instead of preaching to > >the >uG > It was Digital who said that VMS would have dwindled to far less than@E > 200,000 systems by Y2K. It was Digital who said "There is no futureeH > for VMS on the desktop". It was Digital who created "Affinity" to push? > VMS sites towards NT. It was Digital who said "VMS was a fine H > operating system in its time but NT is the future". It was Digital whoG > phoned m up in 1993 to query my order for VMS Alpha systems asking ifoH > there was a mistake and I really meant Unix. It was Digital who causedG > orders for VMS alphaservers to be canceled over my head by telling my-F > university's senior management I was living in the past with VMS. ItB > was Digital who refused to counter that statement by local salesE > despite the efforts of VMS engineering in Livingston (Edinburgh) tos; > get a high level statement backing VMS to the university.o >nD > Don't shoot the messenger. Go after the senior management who feed > them this crap.s >4G > Oh and what does wearing a VMS license plate around one's neck reallye1 > signify? Perhaps you should think about this...c >s" > "Ah! well a-day! what evil looks > Had I from old and young!r% > Instead of the cross, the Albatrosss > About my neck was hung.u >  > -e > ...y > $ > The self same moment I could pray; > And from my neck so free" > The Albatross fell off, and sank > Like lead into the sea." >h5 > - The Rime of the Ancient Mariner, Samuel Coleridgeg > ...  > -- > Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:12:27 +0000.% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>oD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!8 Message-ID: <3clq4u0ngs0bs52o6kbdpcha4356723g0r@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:48:46 +0000, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>- wrote:   >DD >senior analysts? You might be sunrises what they say off the record  : You might be *surprised* at the wonders of point and click
 interfaces...h  ) >and just how clued up they actually are.a   -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 08:48:01 -0800+ From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)CD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!= Message-ID: <e565ed03.0201220848.71414724@posting.google.com>m  ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3C4CE987.9CDB8B03@fsi.net>... > "David L. Cathey" wrote:
 > > [snip]Q > >         I don't disparage your motives.  You want OpenVMS to be promoted moretR > > by Compaq.  I do to.  What I disparage is the methods, the language used (i.e.P > > killing OpenVMS), and some of the tone that's used.  It's counterproductive. > G > I think what has every well past their wit's end is that we've yet tou > find anything "productive".  > 0 > o Face-to-face sessions have proven fruitless. > B > o Repeated requests ala OVMS-Hobby at national symposia ("Compaq7 > Listens" - or do they?) have been repeatedly ignored.e > C > o Top customers have beaten them bloody with little or no effect.a > B > Perhaps ObL's "talents" would be more productive here than in heJ > international arena. Dunno. We've tried everything, but continue to loseH > ground. We can't even arrest the slide, and the Q are doing everything > can to accelerate the slide.  @ 	That sounds really intelligent, David.  Sure, David, let's killG all the Compaq Executive, and then maybe they'll listen to you?  You'rev going off the deep end.   A 	Just to give you an idea of how counter-productive this idea is, I did you know that there were those in Compaq against the expansion of theuD OpenVMS Hobbyist Program due to concerns about dealing with all the G complaints that "it still wasn't enough"?  Not that any of those people_H read comp.os.vms, but were familiar with the complaining that goes on to/ think that it would be better off to not do it.f > R > >         Besides making up stories about Compaq trying to covertly kill OpenVMST > > and move everyone to NT by some evil plot with some Gartner cohorts, think aboutP > > the simple and more likely truth - Gartner Analyists are clueless twits thatS > > do not have a clue about OpenVMS, never have, never will.  They hate it becauseyR > > they don't understand it.  And they're just pissed because after over a decade+ > > of OpenVMS obituaries, it's still here.t > D > Believe me, we understand all that, and everything that I snipped. > 7 > The problem lies is "what we can and cannot control".s  B 	Compaq Management is not something you, David, can control.  It'sI not something I can control.  What I can control is how I present OpenVMS-G to my current and potential customers.  What I can control is how theirmI systems function, and their satisfaction that they are getting a superior- system with an excellent TCO.1  B 	"The Beatings will continue until moral imrpoves" is not now, nor! likely to be a successful tactic.   E > Talking up VMS here and being positive, here and in other fora, hasFB > consistently failed to produce results for years. This is easilyH > documentable by search the Google archives and mapping OpenVMS's slide@ > during the same period(s). So that's obviously not the answer.  C 	Are you kidding?  It's one thing that has helped OpenVMS continue,nF by providing a place where people can get useful information about theJ usage, care and feeding, and assistance for OpenVMS - especially for those just getting into using one.  A > Compaq can easily stop all this negativism - simply, easily andeJ > effectively: prove it wrong. So simple, perhaps, that only a child couldI > do it - it may be beyond the average business type at teh Q or anywhere  > else.a  D 	Bullshit - your negativism can be stopped by you.  If you, and onlyH you, chose to do so.  You've bitched about every program (Hobbyist, Edu,J CSA/ASAP) they have put out.  Nothing seems to be enough, nothing is cheap enough, nothing is free enough.   I > The negativism is the effect, not the cause. Both positive and negativedI > tend to be self propagating. Unfortunately, negativity is more prolificc* > than positivity (if that's even a word).  @ 	But you're not some mindless automaton (I'm guessing here) thatG produces reaction A when given stimulus B.  You, of your own free will,-K have taken it upon yourself to consider ObL's tactics against Compaq to getdN them to do your bidding.  Well, it's worked once, right?  (It did work, didn't it?).7  > > The bottom line is, it's all in the Q's hands at this point.  G 	Nonsense - the market is far too complex than that.  OpenVMS is simplynL and Operating System.  It does nothing but provide a stable secure frameworkL to run APPLICATIONS.  At the OpenVMS hey-days's there was a good third-partyK market.  This needs to be rebuilt.  Compaq can't build this, only customers M can by creating demand.  No demand, no product, no reason to port to OpenVMS.h  D 	Linux didn't get popular because it's Unix.  It got popular becauseM of increasing numbers of useful applications (Gimp, StarOffice, Apache, ...). M Sure it's free - but free isn't worth anything if it's not got the ability toe run your business.  H > One course - market expansion beyond the "high-end" niches, aggressiveD > marketing, price reductions, incentives, etc. - leads to increased' > profits and prosperity and longevity.o  B 	You can see in the PC market how this market expansion, agressiveF marketing, price reductions, incentives has created increased profits,J prosperity, and longevity - despite the problems suffered by Compaq, Dell, Gateway, HP.  A 	You have to remeber that businesses do not by an O/S first, thenrK decide what applications are available to run on it.  They buy applicationsiJ or solutions, and then maybe dicker about which selection of capable O/S's to place where.c  =C > Another course - the status quo - led us to where we stand today.s > % > The choice is entirely up to the Q.d > G > ...just don't expect us to stand idly, silently by while our jobs andoG > careers evaporate and our systems get sold for scrap and are replacedo > with BillyBoxes.  A 	Actually, I hope you don't stand idly.  However, standing aroundnH and moaning about how Compaq isn't doing something to save your personalM ass isn't productive.  Sell an OpenVMS server to a client.  Charge the client K to maintain it on a retainer basis (almost free money).  Repeat until rich.-G You know the product, you can make it work, you can make it successful.e  E 	I learned this a LONG time ago, but you and only you are responsible-I for your "job".  When times are hard, a company will lay your butt off atB the stroke of a pen.  F > (Sorry if the URL wrapped.) AOL/TW is not afraid to piss off EmperorH > William I. Now, the Q can take an aggressive stance as well. Imagine aF > strategic alliance with AOL/TW to build/sell Linux desktops with AOLH > pre-loaded! Who knows? the Fall of Microsoft might even make the Walls5 > of Jericho look like a vase falling off the mantle.e  = 	Yeah, Compaq didn't worry too much about pissing of Gates by F dropping WNT on Alpha (which they COMPLETED the W2K port, but were not8 allowed to release it until the Intel version was done).    	Or selling Linux-ready servers.  .A > ...and by the way: the Q had better do something before *I* do!-F > ...unless they want to compete with *ME* for Linux desktops with AOLJ > pre-loaded! This just could be the chance of a lifetime for someone like > me.!  @ 	Go for it.  Why wait?  Really!  If it's a chance of a lifetime,I take it and don't look back.  Compaq is not in the business of, the stockuN holders do not hold the Board accountable for, the stock price is not impactedI by, and the 5-year strategy of Compaq is NOT dependent upon whether DaviddE Dachtera has an OpenVMS-related job or not.  Or David Cathey, either.0   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 10:15:50 -0800+ From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)bD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!< Message-ID: <e565ed03.0201221015.58e462d@posting.google.com>  s "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<eC638.41676$jd7.2919998@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>... : > "David L. Cathey" <davidc@montagar.com> wrote in message9 > news:e565ed03.0201211947.285814f2@posting.google.com...t9 > > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagec? > news:<7qZ28.40150$QB1.2993374@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...e >  > ...e > E > > I've heard what I've heard.  There are some people here that have   > > pissed off people at Compaq. > K > Given the degree to which Compaq has screwed some of them, I suspect thatv7 > they may not have a great deal of remorse about that.  > & >   This is NOT how you work together. > J > Indeed.  But 'working together' has for many years been the goal only ofM > VMS's external supporters, not of VMS's owners.  After a long enough periodAJ > of trying to 'work together' and failing utterly, people tend to get the- > idea that a different approach is required.e  3 	But an antagonistic approach isn't ever effective.e  I > Productive engagement appears to at least some of us to be a completelyyH > failed policy, which makes your point irrelevant.  Though I do tend toL > suspect that most of what many here object to about Compaq can be ascribed: > more to simple incompetence than to active skullduggery.  A 	I think it's between incompetence, still not quite understandingeI what they have, and needing to concentrate on not losing money on some oftK their other products.  OpenVMS is still a cash cow for Compaq, and still isnI in growth.  It needs to be fed, but it's helping support the bottom line.eL From a high-enough up level at the total corporate view - it's not as brokenH to them.  I think they know things need to get fixed, but they are often
 overshadowed.   J > I really don't worry much about that, because selling VMS (or some otherM > product) is not a goal for me (though I believe it should be much more of a J > goal for Compaq, and if it were I'd happily offer appropriate applause).K > I'm simply trying to do my part to force Compaq (since gentler approaches8C > haven't worked) to support VMS as it should, and if the threat ofnN > significant sales loss is what it takes to do that then that's no problem at
 > all for me.r  + 	So let's evaluate how that strategy works:d  ( 1) You feel the VMS market is shrinking.4 2) You take action which accelerates this shrinkage.E 3) OpenVMS goes from being a profit center of Compaq to losing money.  4) Gartner smiles with gleeb5 5) Folks here get really happy about the situation...iL 6) Compaq notices and magically reverses years of reduction in market share.  F 	My question, is how does one get from #5 to #6.  Jobs lost are likelyI lost.  What magic bullet creates corporate demand for an Operating SystemlI without regard for applications?  What "marketing" program will make yourtI boss giddy as a school girl and buy $100,000 or $500,000 or $1,000,000 ofe OpenVMS goodies?  E 	The problem is there isn't a magic bullet.  There is no "where's theuL beef" advertizing campaign that works in this industry.  They're not sellingM fast food.  They're selling a solution (of which OpenVMS is only a part) thattK has to work.  I've been in sales cycles like this, and they can take monthseN to years of work and negotiation.  And then you still lose out.  It's not just4 a marketing problem.  Sometimes it's very political.  C 	Compaq has fought back from the downward spiral of OpenVMS revenuenK once.  It's not going to improve matters making them have to do it all overt again.	i  I > > Before you bitch at Compaq's marketing of OpenVMS, take a good, long,wE > > honest look at your own marketing of OpenVMS, too.  Remember that- >  word-of-mouthJ > > is often some of the strongest and most effective marketing tool, even > today. > K > I certainly hope so, because that will increase the leverage on Compaq of1 > what goes on here.  : 	Actually, it can only undermine what leverage Compaq has.  M > Yadda, yadda, yadda.  Sarcasm is apparently lost on you:  my point was thateJ > it may be easy to tell other people how they *should* act, but it's alsoM > fairly pointless, since they define their own motives and means, thank you.w  C 	But hopefully I can at least make one or two stop and think.  It'smL the "cutting of your nose to spite your face" concept.  The Hobbyist ProgramJ provides an excellent opportunity here - port your favorite app.  Remember  that often the apps draw demand.  C 	The Hobbyist license is perfect for anyone to port a cool Unix appnJ to OpenVMS.  I'm sure Hoffman would be happy to include it on the FreewareK CD if possible.  Patrick Moreau has done outstanding work porting things to: OpenVMS, as have many others.M  K > In the area of active support, I certainly won't try to compete with you, M > but then again your efforts are I suspect at least somewhat related to your N > livelihood, whereas mine are purely a matter of appreciating the product (inF > that it has been completely irrelevant to my work for 15 years now).  D 	None of the above items I mentioned have contributed any great sumsM of money to my bottom line.  Actually, my largest two contracts at this point L are not OpenVMS related at all - at least now, but porting to OpenVMS can be leverage later.v  J > > Besides making up stories about Compaq trying to covertly kill OpenVMSH > > and move everyone to NT by some evil plot with some Gartner cohorts, > N > You seem to have confused me with someone else, which raises questions aboutD > your understanding of the discussion you're choosing to jump into.  @ 	Again, most of these comments are not addressed to any specific  person (unless otherwise noted).   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 01:57:30 -0800# From: pmartyn@csc.com (Phil Martyn)i( Subject: GETJPI under TCPIP V5.0 - ECO 3= Message-ID: <23088ca1.0201220157.733db35c@posting.google.com>a   Hello,D     I'm testing out Compaq's TCPIP services (V5.0 - ECO 3) under VMS@ 7.2-1. We currently run TCPWARE V5.4-3. There's some legacy codeD hanging around which requires the ip address/name of the port and it? gets it using lib$getjpi. This returns just the IP address e.g.t pc-007824.uk.xxxxxx.comyF      However under TCPIP services I get results akin to the following:( Host: pc-007824.uk.xxxxxx.com	Port: 1154  C Ideally what I want is a way to identify just the IP address of the D machine that has made the TELNET connection in in one command/query.C (I've looked at other posts and I can confirm there's no rogue 'SETe; TERM/INQUIRE' hanging about). Any help gratefully received.w   PM.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:54:03 -0000w/ From: Michael Zarlenga <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> : Subject: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC/ Message-ID: <u4qh6beql45820@corp.supernews.com>s  = In comp.os.vms Bon Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:t2 : > Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:K : > :    Funny, I do it all the time.  Oh, yeah, I modified somebody else'st: : > :    SD.COM years ago, just like nearly everyone else. : > = : > Bob, are you the same guy who thinks it's very painful tog* : > write a .ksh to get a wildcard rename?  F :   No, I only thinks it's painfull to have to keep relearning it whenC :   forced to change shells.  My sd.com has not needed change sincek4 :   about the time Berkley ported UNIX to an 11/780.  < As I told you, I have never been forced to change shells and; I've worked on Unix boxes set up years ago.  Korn is a very  popular shell.  = How many Unix boxes have you done work on?  I'd say I've been > logged onto between between 100 and 200 different boxes in the# last 4 years, and all have had ksh.    --   -- Mike Zarlenga   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 04:52:04 -0800+ From: daniel-news@haxx.se (Daniel Stenberg)0 Subject: Re: https client apii< Message-ID: <16d13a8.0201220452.653b6b6c@posting.google.com>  , kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) wrote:  F > After some creative beating I did get cURL to work for my V7.3 AlphaE > VMS system.  I use it to POST credit card validation sequences to aeH > clearing bank via https.  Works for me, but since some of the code hasG > routines with the same name, except for case change, I had to compile  > everything /name=as_is.   C ... as maintainer of curl and libcurl, I am of course interested inrD getting more information about what the "creative beating" was about= and if it would be useful to get applied to the main sources.0  F Please post details to the libcurl mailing list. More info about it at http://curl.haxx.se/mail/s   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:14:23 +0000s% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>rN Subject: Re: i am randy! (was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans8 Message-ID: <4fjq4ugsepgrjq2us3ai56k7eki8v5utak@4ax.com>  E On 21 Jan 2002 16:15:24 CDT, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.120519.killspam.00c7v (Wayne Sewell) wrote:h   >my name is Randy".r >> s >dO >Yes, we had a computer operator by that name who worked at a remote AustralianiA >site.  His first few weeks in the country were interesting.  :-)y  E In the UK "Durex" is a condom.  In Australia it's a brand of adhesivet tape. Confuse at your peril! -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:53:17 +0000n  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.comN Subject: Re: i am randy! (was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans: Message-ID: <OF1BFFDAB9.8760F41C-ON00256B49.00573DB8@btyp>   Hey look, in an emergency...!c   ;^D    Steve S         9 Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> on 01/22/2002 03:14:23 PM     To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:tF From:      Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>, 22 January 2002, 3:14 p.m.  E Re: i am randy! (was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans     E On 21 Jan 2002 16:15:24 CDT, wayne@tachysoft.xxx.120519.killspam.00c7P (Wayne Sewell) wrote:a   >my name is Randy".h >> >pD >Yes, we had a computer operator by that name who worked at a remote
 AustralianA >site.  His first few weeks in the country were interesting.  :-)   E In the UK "Durex" is a condom.  In Australia it's a brand of adhesiveg tape. Confuse at your peril! -- Alan          F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message hasiG been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,e$ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have receivednK this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message..  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.o  I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire,pD RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:12:47 +0100 (MET)a9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>aN Subject: laws (was: RE: Bill Gates admits security "non-existent" in windows!); Message-ID: <01KDDJT4ZMF68ZI8TR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>s  G > But there are some obscure old laws.  The law prohibiting spitting in C > Baltimore is over 200 years old.  Maryland has the only operating J > commercial dredging fleet under sail because the law prohibits dredging < > for mollusks in the Chesapeake Bay except when under sail.  E Of course, many states in the U.S. still have laws against [wrinkles iE forehead while contemplating ways of avoiding various p.c., net-nannyiH etc content filters] things consenting adults can and elsewhere normallyH do with each other without fear of the law.  "Don't swallow, honey, it's the sherrif."  :-) d   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:35:20 +0100y7 From: "Dijk, Jeroen van" <Jeroen.vanDijk@Getronics.com>o1 Subject: RE: Making bootable images from VMS disk O Message-ID: <2795B75EF003D311801A00A0C906B511011C6C3A@cucexec.gbc.getronics.nl>o  " About staback.kit and imagebackup.  > stabackup kit you can only use with VAXen and after VMS 7.0=20& you can make an online imagebackup.=20  C So just use backup /image if you have VMS 7.x if you have a lower =c versionoG ask again in this group and tell if you have a vax, an alpha or other =p and=20 the vms version.   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Howard Harte [mailto:hharte@hartetec.com]e# > Sent: zondag 20 januari 2002 6:437 > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms3 > Subject: Re: Making bootable images from VMS diskh >=20 >=20 > Hi,  >=20< > 	Thanks for the information.  It worked well, and I was=20 > able to produce=20F > three bootable drives.  I will mess around with some of the other=200 > suggestions to try and create a bootable tape. >=20: > 	Does anyone know if there are any CD-ROM drives that=20 > are compatible with=20 > DSSI?p >=20
 > 	Thanks,	 > 	HowardO >=20 >=20 > Jan-Erik S=F6derholm wrote:s >=20> > > Backup (and other security features) are one of the really> > > strong parts of VMS, so of course there is a way to backup > > the system disk :-)t > >=20! > > Normaly you could just do a :oC > > (firstdisk: is teh current (booted) system disk and seconddisk: ! > > is the target for the backup)i > >=20 > > $ MOUNT/FORAIGN seconddisk:oC > > $ BACKUP/IMAGE/IGNORE=3DINTERLOCK/VERIFY firstdisk: seconddisk:i > >=20< > > That should produce a bootable copy of your system disk. > >=20@ > > Make sure you don't have anything else running on the system> > > during the copy.  You will get warnings tat some files areD > > "open for write", but the "/IGNORE=3DINTERLOCK" will try to copyA > > them anyway. These files will only be some log files, so it'sbC > > normaly no problem. Anyway, take a lock at what the VERIFY passe
 > > tels you.e > >=20G > > And, of course, Compaq tels you to backup the system disk off-line.  > >=20 > > Jan-Erik S=F6derholm.i > >=20 > > Howard Harte wrote:. > >=20 > >>Hi,t > >>A > >>        I just got my Vax 4000/300 to boot VMS 6.2 from an=20n > RF35 DSSI drive.  If@ > >>have two other (empty) RF35's in the system, and for now,=20 > no tape drive. > >>= > >>        I am wondering how to make a disk image of the=20d > bootable drive onto the G > >>other drives so in case I mess one up, I can boot from another.  Isr% > >>there a way to do this under VMS?a > >> > >> >=20   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:04:42 -0500o% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>l1 Subject: Re: Making bootable images from VMS diskr, Message-ID: <3C4D6368.8FD60E2F@videotron.ca>   "Dijk, Jeroen van" wrote:uK > So just use backup /image if you have VMS 7.x if you have a lower versioniK > ask again in this group and tell if you have a vax, an alpha or other andi > the vms version.  K The "problem" with BACKUP/IMAGE is that it puts on your target disk all theL. lint that has accumulated on your system disk.    N Also, I would be extremely careful before issuing that command when the targetI disk already has data in it because of the confusion that exists over theW* /INIT or /NOINIT when /IMAGE is specified.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 09:37:26 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)1 Subject: Re: Making bootable images from VMS diski< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201220937.9aeac91@posting.google.com>  [ Howard Harte <hharte@hartetec.com> wrote in message news:<3C494E76.4090403@hartetec.com>...e > Hi,e > J > 	I just got my Vax 4000/300 to boot VMS 6.2 from an RF35 DSSI drive.  I J > have two other (empty) RF35's in the system, and for now, no tape drive. > J > 	I am wondering how to make a disk image of the bootable drive onto the F > other drives so in case I mess one up, I can boot from another.  Is # > there a way to do this under VMS?  > F > 	Also, assuming a install a DSSI tape drive (ie, TF85) can I make a  > bootable tape also?- > M > 	One more question (perhaps this is the wrong group, but I'll ask anyway).  J >   WHen I was messing around with doing 'set host' to the DSSI drive via G > DUP, I saw that there was an option to emulate MSCP.  If I turn this e? > option on, will I be able to use the DSSI drive under NetBSD?. > 
 > 	Thanks,	 > 	Howardv  J the easiest most reliable way is to create a system shadow disk then mountM another member into the shadow set, let it copy, then dismount when finished! P This is the best way to get a complete bootable image of the system disk outside; of taking down the system and running standalone images ...t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:03:58 +0100o, From: Theo Jakobus <Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de> Subject: MOZILLA 0.9.7) Message-ID: <3C4D552E.6070407@iaf.fhg.de>   N I'm using MOZILLA 0.9.6 for the web and for e-mail on a PWS500au, OpenVMS 7.3.5 I downloaded MOZILLA 0.9.7 and installed the program.o  / After starting MOZILLA 0.9.7 I have 2 problems:rO 1. It doesn't recognize my MOZILLA profile which is in subdirectory [._MOZILLA]   H 2. The MOZILLA profile manager shows up and after selecting the profile Q "default" an alert "..the directory containing the profile cannot be found.." is sM shown. I created a new profile name, next "choose Folder" poped up the FoldergO Window the "Look in:" was empty pushing "..." didn't show anything. I entered ab< directory path in "File name" but the input wasn't accepted.    M I renamed the directory so MOZILLA started from scratch but still no success.t    < I've entered the information into BUGZILLA it's bug #118988.     Regards, -- r  ; *********************************************************** ; *                                                         *b; *  Theo Jakobus                                           *a; *  Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Angewandte Festkoerperphysik  *n; *  Tullastr. 72                                           * ; *  D-79108 Freiburg                                       * ; *  Germany                                                * ; *  Phone:   +49-(0)761-5159-325                           *r; *  FAX :    +49-(0)761-5159-200                           *n; *  e-mail:  Theo.Jakobus@iaf.fhg.de                       * ; *  http://www.iaf.fhg.de                                  *t; *                                                         *e; ***********************************************************h   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 05:51:21 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)5 Subject: Re: OpenVMS  vs. Unix  -  put up or shut up!o= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201220551.33d8d872@posting.google.com>l  m bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0112221815.6ef7abf0@posting.google.com>...m  F > VMS stands for Virtual Memory System. It is an operating system thatG > Digital Equipment Corporation developed after the RSX system that raneH > on the PDP series of computers (circa late 70's early 80's - hence VMSD > post-dates Unix -- more history here). VMS is process heavy ratherH > than process light so programs load quite slowly - once loaded howeverE > they make for reasonable real time perfomance despite the fact thataE > VMS was never designed to be a real time OS. Indeed this ability tolE > "run real time" is why VMS is not merely a good daemon platform but'2 > the daemon platform - yup even better than Unix.   also the best web platform ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:37:13 -0500.1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>g Subject: Que Manager2 Message-ID: <3C4D7919.F70A6897@firstdbasource.com>   VMS7.3  D I need to rename a system (SCSNODE).  Is there an easy way in 7.3 toB move/copy the queues to the new system name without recreating the queues?o  ( This is not in a cluster at the present. -- r   Regards,   Michael Austin7 First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.comn President/Sr. DBA Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)c   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 07:23:39 GMT ' From: "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii@mail.com>eY Subject: Re: RDB/ELN (was: Incredibly idiocy in CNN headline financial analysis of Compaqw( Message-ID: <3C4D1370.DD93C395@mail.com>   Bill Todd wrote: > 6 > "Glenn Everhart" <Everhart@gce.com> wrote in message# > news:3C4C8E6F.97532165@gce.com...yK > > Last I had heard was that RDB was part of the Oracle purchase; many who  > worked> > > on it moved across the parking lot to the Oracle building. > N > As you may already be aware, RDB and RDB/ELN were not only separate productsK > but separate implementations.  The former was implemented by the DEC DBMSoL > group, and the latter an alternative (considerably more compact, which wasL > one reason Cutler wanted it for ELN) implemented primarily by Jim Starkey.N > They presented a common interface to the world (the 'DEC Standard Relational2 > Interface' - DSRI) but shared little or no code. > I > So when Oracle acquired RDB, I don't know whether they acquired RDB/ELN  > along with it.   On page:    	http://www.compaq.com/info/SPD/  K The RDB/ELN development and run-time licences are listed in SPD 28.03 page:s  A 	VAX Rdb/ELN, Version 2.2 (Relational Database Management System)r/ 	http://www.compaq.com/info/SP2803/SP2803PF.PDFm  J which references the VAXELN Toolkit (SPD 28.02) which I do not see listed.   -- , C.W.Holeman II  cwhii@acm.org				http://emle.org- http://also.as/cwhii		http://JulianLocals.comy   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:20:18 +0100 (MET)s9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>tY Subject: the art of the possible (was: RE: 2 new Compaq Accredited Professionalexams for  ; Message-ID: <01KDDK1KJEA08ZI8TR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>n  J > An engineer and a mathematician were walking through a building one day.M > Upon passing an open door they observed a beautiful naked woman standing atP. > the far side of the room beyond the doorway.  M > The engineer replied, "That may be true, but we'll get close enough for all  > practical purposes."  = In a similar vein (apologies to those who don't read German):   L http://www.palmod.uni-bremen.de/~bgri/node9.html#SECTION00051000000000000000   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 11:33:18 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)x9 Subject: The Register says Northern Light has a new ownerk3 Message-ID: <QPgODaBQ$mDz@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  2 http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/23/23776.html   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:39:44 -0600i< From: "La Roche, Michael" <mlaroche@allsaintshealthcare.org> Subject: Time Sync Software [ Message-ID: <F2D18855B95D6942BD315C5A8F141A0E816AF7@as-exchange-01.allsaintshealthcare.org>-  L Does anyone know of a software package that will sync time between 2 OpenVMSK cluster boxes, IBM AIX RS6000 and Windows NT Servers?  Just want to know ifD0 there is anything like this out there somewhere. TIA  Mike    1                         MMM                      t2                         (O-O)                     +  o--------------oOOo-( )-oOOo------------o y- { Michael J. La Roche - Sr. Systems Analyst }O3 { All Saints Healthcare System, Inc.              } 6 { 1320 Wisconsin Avenue                              }: { Racine, WI  53403                                      }; { V:  262-687-7741                                        }n; { F:  262-687-5595                                        }g0 { E:  mlaroche@allsaintshealthcare.org         },  o----------------oooO--Oooo---------------o    I America was discovered by Amerigo Vespucci and was named after him, untilrH people got tired of living in a place called "Vespuccia" and changed its name to "America".C                 -- Mike Harding, "The Armchair Anarchist's Almanac"t            @ This message, and any attachment, is privileged and confidentialF information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee and AllE Saints Healthcare. If you are not the intended recipient, immediately1I destroy this message and notify the sender of the error. Please note thatML any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this messageC is prohibited. All Saints Healthcare does not endorse any opinions,nL conclusions or other information contained within this message that does not pertain to official business.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:15:09 +0000a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>  Subject: Re: triple boot8 Message-ID: <3eeq4uo0n0vaud69f6h7mqk0c3t97n79of@4ax.com>  0 On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 11:37:54 -0500, WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote:   > A >I do not think that you'll get W2K to run on an Alpha-based box.i >t >Nothing beyond NT4 SP6.  A Hmm, I'm hallucinating the *official* Microsoft  SDK Windows 20002' Release Candidate 2 CD in my desk then?n  A Compaq killed W2K on Alpha *after* it had been completed but justeE weeks before it was due to be released. It was so near the final shipoE date that MS had already  sent advance "Release Candidate" CDs to all0A subscribers to the MS SDK program. It was out of Beta and in wides& distribution for a final sanity check.  C I must also be hallucinating our XP1000s  BIOS saying "Press F7 fore& Windows 2000 startup options" on boot.  C >I'll give you $100 for the lot if you don't want to put VMS on it.e2 >If you do, we'll be glad to help you get started. >- >:^) >- >WWWebbe >u >-----Original Message-----n0 >From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET) >Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 9:10 PM C >To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET7 >Subject: RE: triple boota >m >eF >Wow!  5 OSs' and I can't even get one working!  Which brings me to myJ >problem.  I got a DEC AlphaStation 500 333 Mhz and a 6 disk external SCSIF >hard drive array from my work, and I do not think that they were usedK >together.  The AlphaStation has an internal SCSI harddrive, of what size IaM >am not sure, but all the external disks are 4.3 Gig.  It says that it has NTwI >Server on it, but when I try to boot it, it gives me a message saying it L >can't find that disk address or file.  I have a Win2k install disk, and the5 >newest BIOS, how should I go about installing Win2k?  >a >Thanks, >Jeremyl >iI >P.S.  When I tried to install Win2k, it extracted a bunch of files, then K >gave me a blue screen of death saying that it couldn't find the boot disk.I
 >Please help!P >M >e >  >s >a< >Herman Zilverberg <zilverberg@t-online.de> wrote in message* >news:u4gthope0j5adc@news.supernews.com...( >> No problem if you have a raid server. >>L >> Actually i am running tru64 5.1, tru64 4.0, VMS7.3, Suse 7.1, Win2000 andJ >> WinNT4 on the same machine (Alphaserver 2100 4/75 with 4 processors and >512
 >> Mb ram)M >> The unit has a 2 times 2.1 Gb hd on the internal scsi bus and 8 hds (2.1GbtK >> each) on the Mylex raid 960, which i configured as JBOD (Just a bunch ofnJ >> disks). This gives me DKA0 and 1 for the Win stuff and DRA0 - 7 for theM >> rest. Each DRA can be booted from SRM by just typing b dra0, or dra1, etc.s >> Works without any problem; >> Win2K and NT4 run from the bootmenue of the ARC console.a >> >> Greetings >> Harry >>B >> "Peter Watkinson" <peterw@u.genie.co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag. >> news:3c486e19.6826265@news.cable.ntl.com... >> > >> > >> > Hi, >> >H >> > Does anyone know if it would be possible to triple boot linux, VMS,) >> > Tru64 off of SRM on the same system?T >> >G >> > Also would it be possible to have the three OS residing off of onea >> > hard disk.t >> >
 >> >  cheers,  >> > >> > >> > Peter Watkinson >> > peterw@u.genie.co.uko >> >>   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:11:36 -0000h, From: "Bob Knowles" <bob.knowles@compaq.com>5 Subject: Re: TYPE/TAIL question (fixed record length)r1 Message-ID: <JNb38.294$PZ4.5212@news.cpqcorp.net>d  L I didn't have anything to do with the development, but here are two guesses:  K o  the developers assumed that with files that small there'd be no call forl
 TYPE/TAIL.  D o  maybe something to do with the UNIX "tail" command (which I think+ TYPE/TAIL was         designed to emulate.)J   b   2 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C4AE305.F95CADDA@videotron.ca...H > Why does TYPE/TAIL not work for fixed record length  files that have a record > size less than 512 bytes ? > E > I would have though that calculating the location of where to begina listing 4 > would have been a no brainer for such a file type.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 06:32:17 -0500 ' From: John Sauter <J_Sauter@Empire.Net>t@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)* Message-ID: <3C4D4DC1.4444CFBE@Empire.Net>   Mark Crispin wrote:2  4 The MIT AI Lab PDP-6 had a full moby (Fabritek), an : unheard-of thing at the time.  I don't know if Stanford's ; PDP-6 ever did; at the time I was there (starting in 1977) l( it only had the original 64K memory box.   John Sauter responded:  3 The original memory for the Stanford PDP-6 was four 1 16K memory boxes, model 163s.  An additional box,n2 a model 162, held 16 words of memory, addressed as locations 0-15.t%     John Sauter (J_Sauter@Empire.Net)w   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:47:26 -0500e  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com/ Subject: Re: What has happened to HELP SPECIFY?h4 Message-ID: <C2256B49.004B9DD8.00@jklh21.valmet.com>  J If this bothers you, just put your own entry into SYS$HELP:HELPLIB.HLB for
 "Specify" andnH you can have it display anything you want - the previous version text, a cross-reference toN DCL Tips, the part of DCL Tips that is appropriate, or some other text of your
 own creation.rG Now that OpenVMS has abandoned that help topic, yours will remain after' subsequent upgrades.        / martin.hunt@inl.co.nz on 01/21/2002 05:17:58 PMw  ' Please respond to martin.hunt@inl.co.nzr   To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.comO cc:i0 Subject:  Re: What has happened to HELP SPECIFY?        B On 17 Jan 2002 04:34 CST, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) wrote:  O >In article <3c45f3fe.266167799@news.wlg.netlink.net.nz>, martin.hunt@inl.co.nz  (Martin Hunt) writes...dE >}The topic says it all, really. I upgraded from V7.1 to V7.3 on VAX,HD >}and have just discovered that HELP SPECIFY has gone. When did thisC >}disappear (V7.2 or V7.3), and why? I always found this useful fortF >}checking out the syntax of date and time (particularly delta times), >}for example. >} >}---n
 >}Martin Hunta >a >Check out HELP DCL_Tips.o  C Thanks - that looks like what I was looking for. But why change thenC name? Or why not at least put a reference to the new location under> HELP hints?   D This looks like something you'd expect with Microsoft - the locationA of things changes from version to version just for the fun of it.t   ---a Martin Huntd Systems Administrator6 Independent Newspapers Limited
 Wellington New Zealand    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:28:28 +0200iI From: Jeff Tichafambanai Munyaradzi <Jeffrey.Mutonho@softwarefutures.com>n Subject: Writing COM files2 Message-ID: <3C4D22AC.1080607@softwarefutures.com>  H Please help me with pointers to places where I can get documentation on  writing COM files on VMS...r   Thanxr jEFF   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 07:00:35 -0800. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: Writing COM files= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0201220700.36d4e814@posting.google.com>:   Jeff Tichafambanai Munyaradzi <Jeffrey.Mutonho@softwarefutures.com> wrote in message news:<3C4D22AC.1080607@softwarefutures.com>...7J > Please help me with pointers to places where I can get documentation on  > writing COM files on VMS...h >  > Thanx. > jEFF   Check out the User's Manual0  < http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6489/6489pro.html  G and the VMS FAQ, a link to which can be found on www.openvms.compaq.com    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman  afeldman;gfigroup.com    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 09:15:54 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: Writing COM files3 Message-ID: <Z+0fBqoDWIjl@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  n In article <343f30ae.0201220700.36d4e814@posting.google.com>, SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) writes: > Jeff Tichafambanai Munyaradzi <Jeffrey.Mutonho@softwarefutures.com> wrote in message news:<3C4D22AC.1080607@softwarefutures.com>...pK >> Please help me with pointers to places where I can get documentation on   >> writing COM files on VMS... >> l >> Thanx >> jEFFa >  > Check out the User's Manualt > > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6489/6489pro.html  G or for the other meaning of COM, try the Connectivity Developer's Guide   F http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/6539/6539pro.html#dcom_part   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:16:27 -0700o4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The8 Message-ID: <hc8q4uom4ffi6pv35k8703b607eb2br3qn@4ax.com>  ) [xposts trimmed, alt.english.usage added]d  @ On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMT, geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff McCaughan") wrote:  ' >JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote:n >bL >> Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very close= >> relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?i >gH >No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North American >that is close to crumpets.p   Pancakes/hotcakes. e  Q >> Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are also relatedh( >> to the crumpet/english muffin family. >.E >Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well, A >but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but inuA >the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of the*& >UK pronounce it the NZ way as well...  ? NZ pronunciation probably came from Scotland as it's pronounced > the same, whereas with a capital "S", the "o" is pronounced as@ "oo" as in Stone of Scone, and in England, the "o" is pronounced@ with more emphasis as "oh" or "ow" said as a gentle exclamation,A not quite as in "drone", not really like any word I can think of.   = >Then there's pikelets, which are rather like small pancakes.   A Never heard of those in the UK or NA, are they more like a crepe?      --    9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada   F Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply   tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov 						spam traps   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:21:17 +00002/ From: Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net>tD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The8 Message-ID: <9nsq4uk690gouf8ldo22doimj8bhaogpdj@4ax.com>  0 On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:16:27 -0700, Brian Inglis( <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:  * >[xposts trimmed, alt.english.usage added] > A >On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMT, geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("GeoffU >McCaughan") wrote:e >.( >>JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote: >>M >>> Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very closen> >>> relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ? >>I >>No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North Americanw >>that is close to crumpets. >n >Pancakes/hotcakes.  >mR >>> Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are also related) >>> to the crumpet/english muffin family.a >>F >>Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well,B >>but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but inB >>the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of the' >>UK pronounce it the NZ way as well...t >h@ >NZ pronunciation probably came from Scotland as it's pronounced? >the same, whereas with a capital "S", the "o" is pronounced as A >"oo" as in Stone of Scone, and in England, the "o" is pronounced/A >with more emphasis as "oh" or "ow" said as a gentle exclamation,-B >not quite as in "drone", not really like any word I can think of. >"> >>Then there's pikelets, which are rather like small pancakes. > B >Never heard of those in the UK or NA, are they more like a crepe?  
 COD9 defines:  pikelet // n. N.Engl.  a thin kind of crumpet.a& [Welsh (bara) pyglyd pitchy (bread)]  @ For those who like their exploration of English Usage to involve= eating their words, Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management  has the recipe:g   PIKELETS (SOMETIMES CALLED CRUMPETS)u 1/2 lb. plain flour          R 1/2 pt. milk and water r 1/2 teasp. salt              Pinch of bicarbonate of soda 1/2 Oz. yeast  1/2 teasp. sugar= Warm the flour and mix with the salt. Cream yeast with sugar,,6 add to the warmed milk and water and mix with flour to@ consistency of a soft batter. Cover and leave to rise 30-45 min.? Dissolve the soda in 1 tablesp. warm water, add to the mixture,R? beating well, and put to rise again for 30 min. Grease a girdleD: [1], thick frying-pan or electric hot plate and heat until> fairly hot. Grease pikelet rings or large plain cutters (3 1/2@ in.), place on the girdle and pour in enough batter to cover the@ bottom of ring to a depth of 1/4 in. When top is set and bubbles9 burst, turn and cook on underside. Serve hot with butter. 
 8-10 pikeletss  = [Pint, tablespoon and teaspoon are the British versions which,2 are fractionally larger than their US equivalents. It possibly does not matter!]l  . [1] Girdle = Griddle, not an item of clothing.   --   Peter D. UK   ------------------------------  ! Date: Tue, 22 Jan 02 12:16:19 GMT- From: jmfbahciv@aol.comeD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The+ Message-ID: <a2jsqj$mf0$1@bob.news.rcn.net>d  8 In article <9nsq4uk690gouf8ldo22doimj8bhaogpdj@4ax.com>,3    Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:s1 >On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:16:27 -0700, Brian Ingliso) ><Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:m >y+ >>[xposts trimmed, alt.english.usage added]T >>B >>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMT, geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff >>McCaughan") wrote: >>) >>>JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote:  >>>tI >>>> Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very   close-? >>>> relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?m >>>gJ >>>No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North American >>>that is close to crumpets.D >> >>Pancakes/hotcakes. m >>L >>>> Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are also  related-* >>>> to the crumpet/english muffin family. >>>0G >>>Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well,:C >>>but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but in6C >>>the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of the ( >>>UK pronounce it the NZ way as well... >>A >>NZ pronunciation probably came from Scotland as it's pronounceds@ >>the same, whereas with a capital "S", the "o" is pronounced asB >>"oo" as in Stone of Scone, and in England, the "o" is pronouncedB >>with more emphasis as "oh" or "ow" said as a gentle exclamation,C >>not quite as in "drone", not really like any word I can think of.  >>? >>>Then there's pikelets, which are rather like small pancakes.3 >>C >>Never heard of those in the UK or NA, are they more like a crepe?  >  >COD9 defines: >pikelet // n. N.Engl. 6 >a thin kind of crumpet.' >[Welsh (bara) pyglyd pitchy (bread)]- >5A >For those who like their exploration of English Usage to involves> >eating their words, Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management >has the recipe: >a	 >PIKELETSd >(SOMETIMES CALLED CRUMPETS) >1/2 lb. plain flour           >1/2 pt. milk and water  >1/2 teasp. salt             g >Pinch of bicarbonate of soda  >1/2 Oz. yeast k >1/2 teasp. sugarc> >Warm the flour and mix with the salt. Cream yeast with sugar,7 >add to the warmed milk and water and mix with flour todA >consistency of a soft batter. Cover and leave to rise 30-45 min.t@ >Dissolve the soda in 1 tablesp. warm water, add to the mixture,@ >beating well, and put to rise again for 30 min. Grease a girdle; >[1], thick frying-pan or electric hot plate and heat untiln? >fairly hot. Grease pikelet rings or large plain cutters (3 1/2 A >in.), place on the girdle and pour in enough batter to cover thewA >bottom of ring to a depth of 1/4 in. When top is set and bubbles : >burst, turn and cook on underside. Serve hot with butter. >8-10 pikelets > > >[Pint, tablespoon and teaspoon are the British versions which3 >are fractionally larger than their US equivalents.  >It possibly does not matter!] >0/ >[1] Girdle = Griddle, not an item of clothing.  > : That's a relief.  The functionality of a girdle is to cool things down.   /BAH  ' Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:54:17 +0000 . From: Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@red.sylvania>D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The8 Message-ID: <k7oq4usjmr64i5t16b0409fpueajrfgjtv@4ax.com>  0 On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:16:27 -0700, Brian Inglis( <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:   [..]> >>Then there's pikelets, which are rather like small pancakes. >eB >Never heard of those in the UK or NA, are they more like a crepe?  F They're like a round, bready pancake and are known in the Midlands and( north of the UK. Often spelled pykelets.   --   wrmst rgrds " RB...(docrobinUNSPAM@ntlworld.com)   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:53:03 GMTa) From: "Alan Jones" <atj@blueyonder.co.uk>0D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The9 Message-ID: <zVf38.15997$K35.1930749@news1.cableinet.net>s  A "Brian Inglis" <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote in message 2 news:hc8q4uom4ffi6pv35k8703b607eb2br3qn@4ax.com...+ > [xposts trimmed, alt.english.usage added]  > B > On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMT, geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff > McCaughan") wrote: >v) > >JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote:h. [...] But arent "english muffins" a very close? > >> relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?e > > J > >No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North American > >that is close to crumpets.  >u > Pancakes/hotcakes. >WK > >> Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are alsoe relateda* > >> to the crumpet/english muffin family. > > G > >Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well,eC > >but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but insC > >the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of theu( > >UK pronounce it the NZ way as well... [...]g? > >Then there's pikelets, which are rather like small pancakes.n >eC > Never heard of those in the UK or NA, are they more like a crepe?M  L BrE: scone is usually pronounced 'skon' (I dare not use 'gone' as the rhyme,H because in BrE "gone" is sometimes 'gawn' - old-fashioned posh). "Scone"F rhymed with "own" is by some thought not quite proper (i.e. they wouldH correct children saying it - c.f. forehead, waistcoat etc). I never hearH "skoon" except for the place in Scotland from which the Coronation StoneA came, and think it's probably wrong even in Scotland for the bun.   H Pikelets are a thinner version of crumpets, more popular in the MidlandsH (and perhaps the North?) than in the South. Both are yeast-based, thoughG it's best also to add a little baking powder [NB not US 'baking soda'],>G dissolved in the milk-and-water mix used for the batter, which may alsosG include a little sugar to make the yeast "work" better,. The mixture is>F poured into a metal ring (the size of a tea-saucer, say the old books)F standing on a bakestone or a hot flat metal plate called a "griddle" -I nothing to do with "griddle" in the other sense of "grill". (Pikelets areuA sometimes cooked like pancakes, without the ring.) The griddle isJH traditionally iron, but in recent years some sort of aluminium alloy has: been used: much lighter and (if thick enough) even better.  J The finished crumpet may be almost an inch deep (pikelets only half that),L rather leathery in texture and riddled with holes and crevices, and must nowJ be removed and toasted in order to brown the top . The sponginess soaks upI as much butter as you can spread on the hot crumpet, and the leatherinessPI prevents the butter-soaked crumpet from falling to pieces. Some now add alG little jam [US jelly?] but I prefer a smidgen of Patum Peperium (alitertH Gentleman's Relish, a kind of anchovy paste). A linen napkin tucked intoL one's collar may now be useful. Most people these days buy crumpets/pikeletsJ ready-made and toast them; bought are slightly more leathery, I find, than home-made ones.h  I Muffins (English-style) are more like ordinary bread rolls, made as doughCE rather than batter, though they are similar in shape to crumpets with H vertical sides and characteristically textured tops where flour has beenK scattered before baking.. They are softer in texture than crumpets, often amL little sweeter, and not particularly holey. They are not cooked in rings but! shaped by hand (at home, anyway).o  G There is a whole chapter on "Crumpets and Muffins" in Elizabeth David'ssI "English Bread and Yeast Cookery" (1977), almost 600 pages (the book, not-C the chapter), highly practical but also scholarly and entertaining.m  L Pancakes, crepes and American muffins are not yeast-based, and are thereforeF quite different from what has just been described, though a fat littleK Scotch pancake may at first sight resemble a pikelet. British people regardoH American-style muffins, as we see them here, as a subspecies of "bun" orH small "cake", since they are shaped by the little pans or paper cases in$ which they are cooked and are sweet.  
 Alan Jones   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jan 2002 18:39:15 GMT& From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr)D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The; Message-ID: <slrna4qd1k.se9.stanb@citadel.metropolis.local>h  2 On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMT, Geoff McCaughan  <geoffm@spam.hormel.com> wrote:( >lE >Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well,tA >but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but in A >the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of thea& >UK pronounce it the NZ way as well...  - Oop 'ere in t'North it rhymes with "gone"....    -- ? Cheers,  Stan Barr  stanb@dial.pipex.comg   The future was never like this!a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:16:25 -0700C4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The       demise       oe8 Message-ID: <466q4u4n3l0dussc3muunve1ldrssc7dtj@4ax.com>  ) [trimmed xposts, added alt.english.usage]i  , On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:13:40 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote:   F >> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:27:53 GMT, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> >> sprachen: >>  F >> >I keep telling people that English muffins are neither English nor >> >muffins :-)T >a >bJ >Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very close; >relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?  >aO >Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are also related & >to the crumpet/english muffin family.  ? North American "English muffins" are more like a bready varietym: of British scones. Said scones may vary in shape, size and> texture from flat (in both senses) potato scones to puffy soda> scones. My Gran used to cook all kinds of scones and dumplings? (as in heavy suet pudding cakes to head off further discussion)t@ in an oven in a coal fired range, so I became rather fond of and familiar with the variety.  @ AFAIR British crumpets are like crepes or sweet pancakes, unless? the word crumpets is used to describe a variety of bready cakesl as widely varying as scones.  > Given the propensity of each region to have their own "better"@ variety of anything available in adjacent regions, such regional@ variations in the meanings of crumpets, muffins and scones would not surprise me. m   --    9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, CanadaD  F Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply   tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov 						spam traps   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:33:51 +0100C- From: "Hastings" <hastings@mail1.stofanet.dk> Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The       demise       o99 Message-ID: <3c4d5cb2$0$254$ba624c82@nntp03.dk.telia.net>t  L What are (or were, in my childhood) known as pikelets in B'ham (England) areL defined in Chambers as "a kind of tea-cake, or crumpet, or muffin (dialect); a drop-scone (Austr and NZ)"   -- Hastings Englishman in Denmark>    F "Brian Inglis" <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> skrev i en meddelelse2 news:466q4u4n3l0dussc3muunve1ldrssc7dtj@4ax.com...+ > [trimmed xposts, added alt.english.usage]d > . > On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:13:40 -0500, JF Mezei > <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote:t > H > >> On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 13:27:53 GMT, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com> > >> sprachen: > >>   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:58:04 +0000 (UTC) 0 From: "Rupert Pigott" <Darkb00ng@btinternet.com>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The       demise       oe/ Message-ID: <a2jr5c$bof$1@helle.btinternet.com>h  ? Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote in messagef2 news:466q4u4n3l0dussc3muunve1ldrssc7dtj@4ax.com... [SNIP]A > North American "English muffins" are more like a bready variety   ; I'll put it this way, those were the only things which werer? vaguely close to what my limey definition of a muffin was. Evenl/ then the corn syrup kinda killed the effect. :(a  < > of British scones. Said scones may vary in shape, size and@ > texture from flat (in both senses) potato scones to puffy soda@ > scones. My Gran used to cook all kinds of scones and dumplings   Don't forget Cheese scones !  = No, I wasn't able to find a close match to my limey idea of ae= scone or crumpet in the USA either. On the other hand I notede; that in general your Bagels were a ton better than the onese available to us over here.  8 The ones we got from Safeway were like Terry Pratchett's; Dwarf Bread. You could leave out in the car for a couple of : days and they still weren't (any more) stale than when you7 bought em. The down side was that they were practically@& impossible to eat unless you nuked em.  < Actually, I left Oregon the first time thinking that America< really didn't understand the concept of bread full stop. But; then just before I left the second time we popped into somen8 freaky-trendy-organic-bread-emporium thingy in Salem and; bought some absolutely fantastic bread (still warm from thei= oven). They did all kinds of variants too, Pesto was my fave.a< Just ripped it open while it was still warm, spread a little= butter on it and wolfed it down. &(!"*(!" lovely it was. :):   Cheers,g Rupert   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 08:48:42 +0100& From: "Ketil Malde" <ketil+@ii.uib.no>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cw. Message-ID: <egwuya25d1.fsf@sefirot.ii.uib.no>  2 geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff McCaughan") writes:  > >> Well, as it seems to work here... buns are roughly spheroid# >> and rolls roughly cylindrical.  h  G > Well I'd have said that buns tend to be cake-like, and anything smalle > and made of bread is a roll.  
 [etc, ad inf]n  8 Two (at least!) nations, separated by a common language.  C Before we all go off and extensively crosspost the woes of English,s  might I suggest dropping by e.g.  9         http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html   E for some ammunition against the German language (which I have nothingeE in particular against, it just happens to be a funny piece).  I don'tiA think you'll find a language without idiosyncracies -- after all,e@ we're having a hard time agreeing on the virtues of *programming. languages*, and they were actually *designed*.   -kzm -- "E "In Paris they just simply opened their eyes and stared when we spokeN> to them in French! We never did succeed in making those idiots  understand their own language." >                                 Mark Twain, "Innocents Abroad"   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 09:06:07 +0000 (UTC)a" From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.ukY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cb3 Message-ID: <3c638b3c.7274399@news.btopenworld.com>/  E On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 17:53:52 +0000, cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris  Hedley) sprachen:a  G >What's a "bun," though?  Being from the Northern Wastelands of the UK,r2 >I call anything that's bready and spheroid a bun,   That's a teacake, you fool!e  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  H if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's@ kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side5 effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche)3   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:09:41 +0000t/ From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley)aY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cP( Message-ID: <5qkj2a.to.ln@teabag.cbhnet>  6 According to Geoff McCaughan <geoffm@spam.hormel.com>:@ > > 	Well, as it seems to work here... buns are roughly spheroid$ > > and rolls roughly cylindrical.   > G > Well I'd have said that buns tend to be cake-like, and anything small1 > and made of bread is a roll.  G But there's still the ubiquitous "burger in a bun," which is distinctlysE non-cakelike.  I also forgot to mention the third alternative, "bap,"lG which is rolled out whenever some non-local thinks that they're getting>E the hang of the bun/roll confusion.  As far as I can tell, a bap is anF non-exchangable word for a bun when it's not a roll.  Or maybe when itB is a roll.  I suspect that the usage of bap, roll and bun probablyF varies according to the day of the week, the lunar cycle and maybe the weather.   Chris.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:59:16 +0000 (UTC)-0 From: "Rupert Pigott" <Darkb00ng@btinternet.com>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cm/ Message-ID: <a2jr7i$bs9$1@helle.btinternet.com>c  ? Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message * news:3C4CD2B9.3376B5DC@blueyonder.co.uk... [SNIP]C > Buns are sweet, rolls are not, don't they teach you that up thereo >, > multiple smilies  A You're going to get a shock if you expect buns to be consistently  sweet up north mate. :)e   Cheers,i Rupert   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:35:02 GMT ' From: "Hans Bergengren" <spam@spam.com>lY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The demise       of comps5 Message-ID: <Wu938.16296$l93.3431615@newsb.telia.net>l  & "Bruce Hoult" <bruce@hoult.org> wrote:  
 > Pikelets
 > Crumpets > Scones	 > Muffinst   > Hope I got all that right :-)t  + DAMMIT, Bruce! You're making me hungry! ;-)T      Bye!  /HB.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:41:19 +0000h  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.comC Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The : Message-ID: <OF09C20F77.9C1B665D-ON00256B49.0044CABF@btyp>  J Pikelets are crumpets. I know the word is used in the Midlands, especially the black country.  K The best suggestion I can think of to help those poor unfortunates who liveLJ outside the UK and cannot enjoy the full range of culinary delights we areJ exposed to is to visit http://www.waitrose.com and have a browse round theI goods. Bakery and Pattiserie, then Morning Goods will gave the full rangetG of crumpets, bagels, muffins [American and English], pancakes [English,i% Scots and other], croissants etc etc.e   Cheers   Steve S         H Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> on 01/22/2002 11:16:27 AM    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc: K From:      Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>, 22 January 2002,             11:16 a.m.g  ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Thed    ) [xposts trimmed, alt.english.usage added]f  @ On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMT, geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff McCaughan") wrote:  ' >JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote:s > F >> Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very closea= >> relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?a >rH >No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North American >that is close to crumpets.g   Pancakes/hotcakes.  I >> Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are also- related-( >> to the crumpet/english muffin family. >0E >Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well,rA >but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but in4A >the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of the:& >UK pronounce it the NZ way as well...  ? NZ pronunciation probably came from Scotland as it's pronouncede> the same, whereas with a capital "S", the "o" is pronounced as@ "oo" as in Stone of Scone, and in England, the "o" is pronounced@ with more emphasis as "oh" or "ow" said as a gentle exclamation,A not quite as in "drone", not really like any word I can think of.l  = >Then there's pikelets, which are rather like small pancakes.   A Never heard of those in the UK or NA, are they more like a crepe?c     --  ; Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis    Calgary, Alberta, Canada-  I Brian.Inglis@CSi.com     (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca)n3     fake address         use address above to reply4  ? tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.comgF abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov (                               spam traps          F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message hastG been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce, $ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have received K this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.a  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.e  I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire,eD RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:44:07 +0100m$ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>C Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Thee. Message-ID: <q0e38.86$EU.2562@news.get2net.dk>   IIRC  K pikelets are rather like small, thick pancakes, eaten cold with butter, jaml and whipped cream.I crumpets are those things full of air holes you buy in a packet and toastl and eat with butter and honey.H scones are a small, dry, horrid breadlike thingy, shaped like a bun (but  smaller) and eaten like piklets.? muffins seem to be a very flat heavy bread bun that one toasts.s  H as for muffins, the English and American varieties are almost completely@ unlike each other and unrelated as culinary items.  Etymological! similarities are a mystery to me.k  H In Australia and NZ, scone - pronounced like "gone" and Scone (the town)) pronounced as it is spelled (like "own").e   In UK it varies I think.   Dweeb.- <Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com> wrote in messagee4 news:OF09C20F77.9C1B665D-ON00256B49.0044CABF@btyp... >e >rL > Pikelets are crumpets. I know the word is used in the Midlands, especially > the black country. >uH > The best suggestion I can think of to help those poor unfortunates who liveL > outside the UK and cannot enjoy the full range of culinary delights we areL > exposed to is to visit http://www.waitrose.com and have a browse round theK > goods. Bakery and Pattiserie, then Morning Goods will gave the full rangekI > of crumpets, bagels, muffins [American and English], pancakes [English,b' > Scots and other], croissants etc etc.a >e > Cheers >'	 > Steve S  >d >  >h > J > Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> on 01/22/2002 11:16:27 AM > " > To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > cc:eG > From:      Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>, 22 Januaryd 2002,h >            11:16 a.m.e >r= > Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Thea >r >h+ > [xposts trimmed, alt.english.usage added]t > B > On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMT, geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff > McCaughan") wrote: >k) > >JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote:e > >fH > >> Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very > closet? > >> relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?o > >uJ > >No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North American > >that is close to crumpets.o >  > Pancakes/hotcakes. >yK > >> Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are alsoi	 > related * > >> to the crumpet/english muffin family. > >fG > >Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well,aC > >but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but inrC > >the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of the ( > >UK pronounce it the NZ way as well... >tA > NZ pronunciation probably came from Scotland as it's pronounced @ > the same, whereas with a capital "S", the "o" is pronounced asB > "oo" as in Stone of Scone, and in England, the "o" is pronouncedB > with more emphasis as "oh" or "ow" said as a gentle exclamation,C > not quite as in "drone", not really like any word I can think of.0 >2? > >Then there's pikelets, which are rather like small pancakes.l >SC > Never heard of those in the UK or NA, are they more like a crepe?  >t >  > -- >r= > Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis    Calgary, Alberta, Canada  >hK > Brian.Inglis@CSi.com     (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca) 5 >     fake address         use address above to reply. > A > tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.comwH > abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com! > abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov * >                               spam traps >c >R >Y >g >rH > ______________________________________________________________________ >- >  > [Information] -- PostMaster:F > This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beI > confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message has I > been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,e& > distribute or use this transmission. >gJ > Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isI > not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have receivedoD > this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message. >a > Thank you. > F > Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.= > Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.i >mK > Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire,aF > RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041. >k >l   ------------------------------   Date: 21 Jan 2002 20:04:20 CDT= From: wayne@tachysoft.xxx.120519.killspam.00c7 (Wayne Sewell) M Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise ofm. Message-ID: <BX6cIOqf1NuO@tachxxsoftxxconsult>  e In article <aE038.1328$Lv.177839@news.xtra.co.nz>, geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff McCaughan") writes:h% > greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.uk wrote:i >>  C >> God Americans don't half worry about what people think. And it'siE >> normal for politicians to use sentences that nearly mean the exact I >> opposite of what they're really saying. You're evolving pretty quicklye >> towards Newspeak. > K > Well Americans already say stuff like "I could care less", when I *think*s# > they mean "I couldn't care less".a  M It's a form of sarcasm, as in "oh, YEAH, you're a real genius."  "Oh, YEAH, Ii REALLY care about that", etc.e     -- nO ===============================================================================-M Wayne Sewell, Tachyon Software Consulting  (281)812-0738  wayne@tachysoft.xxxi: http://www.tachysoft.xxx/www/tachyon.html and wayne.html  K change .xxx to .com in addresses above, assuming you are not a spambot  :-)$O ===============================================================================kN Sparky (from Bring It On): "In cheerleading, we throw people in the air.  Fat  	people don't go as high."   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:16:27 -0700B4 From: Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of     compaq d8 Message-ID: <lo7q4u86ed9le13m9rtfis4nj9c5b6nctg@4ax.com>  ) [xposts trimmed, alt.english.usage added]e  : On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:35:03 -0800, "Kenneth H. Fairfield"& <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> wrote:   >JF Mezei wrote: >- >> re: standard vs US english. >>Q >> My prefered phrase that highlights the difficulty of interpreting language is:R >> >> An aussi asking a yank:B >>         "Which do you prefer, the fanny ?, or the other side ?" >o? >    Totally off-topic (for c.o.v) but having a great time! :-)i >.B >    I understand the "Randy" reference below, and could even makeA >a plausible guess at the varied meanings of "rest" in one of theaB >follow-ups, but for a poor, uninitiated yank, could someone offerC >a US "translation" of the "Australian" example above?  Read from aaC >US perspective, it's either a far too intimate query or completelyi >misunderstood!  :-O :-)  < It's a very intimate query, but opposite meaning on opposite@ sides of the pond. Everyone would understand it if the word used
 was "pussy". a     -- n  9 Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canadan  F Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dot ca),     fake address		use address above to reply   tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.gov 						spam traps   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:16:17 -0500e+ From: Keith R. Williams <krw@attglobal.net>lX Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of   compaq ): Message-ID: <MPG.16b7302946ca1b8c9896f3@enews.newsguy.com>  3 In article <OM038.1330$Lv.178336@news.xtra.co.nz>, t geoffm@spam.hormel.com says...- > Robert Knowles (knowles.dr@home.com) wrote:a > > > > > Or the expression "I'm stuffed" after eating a large meal. > > 5 > > Means an entirely different thing to Australians.u > G > Probably would be quite well understood by most Australians actually,w@ > though I do remember an incident of confusion when an American4 > announced that some circuit boards were 'stuffed'. > 8 > Then there's the potenial for confusion with 'root'...  H A friend of ours, when checking into an Engish hotel, was asked whether A she's like to be "knocked up in the morning". It certainly had a s) different meaning for her than the clerk!    ----	    Keith e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:11:24 +0100c, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>V Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq )7 Message-ID: <20020122081124.7dce12ea.steveo@eircom.net>.  " On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 14:35:03 -0800= "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com> wrote:    KHF> > An aussi asking a yank:F KHF> >         "Which do you prefer, the fanny ?, or the other side ?" KHF> uC KHF>     Totally off-topic (for c.o.v) but having a great time! :-)    	Welcome to a.f.c :)  F KHF>     I understand the "Randy" reference below, and could even makeE KHF> a plausible guess at the varied meanings of "rest" in one of theaF KHF> follow-ups, but for a poor, uninitiated yank, could someone offerG KHF> a US "translation" of the "Australian" example above?  Read from a!G KHF> US perspective, it's either a far too intimate query or completelyg KHF> misunderstood!  :-O :-)  D 	Based on my limited (Anglo/Irish) understanding of aussi and yank IK believe that this is indeed an intimate query however the meaning undergoesoN a precise reversal between Australia and the US, so whichever the yank prefers the other is what is delivered.3   -- .H C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:18:51 +0100t, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>V Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq )7 Message-ID: <20020122081851.2f3bbcbf.steveo@eircom.net>-    On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:19:29 GMT- liam@nessie.xinqu.net (Liam Greenwood) wrote:E  @ LG> 	Well, as it seems to work here... buns are roughly spheroid$ LG> and rolls roughly cylindrical.    K 	OK fine so far - now baps ? What about knotted and plaited rolls (or is itu buns) ?f   -- .H C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.042 ************************enever some non-local thinks that they're getting>E the hang of the bun/roll confusion.  As far as I can tell, a bap is anF non-exchangable word for a bun when it's not a roll.  Or maybe when itG    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    ³G    óG    ĳG    ųG    ƳG    ǳG    ȳG    ɳG    ʳG    ˳G    ̳G    ͳG    γG    ϳG    гG    ѳG    ҳG    ӳG    ԳG    ճG    ֳG    ׳G    سG    ٳG    ڳG    ۳G    ܳG    ݳG    ޳G    ߳G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    G    