0 INFO-VAX	Wed, 23 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 43      Contents: .CLD to .RNH generator Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement Re: A position statement# Re: Advanced Server 7.3 - exploded.  Re: Asking  your opinion# Bidirectional parallel port driver? ' Re: Bidirectional parallel port driver? ' Re: Bidirectional parallel port driver?  Big MIME problems  Re: Big MIME problems O RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC O Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC 7 Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible? 7 Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible? 7 Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible? P Re: Buns, cakes, crumpets and now teacakes [was Re: Younger recruits versusexper& Re: C++ appears to be available online/ Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse! / Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse! / Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse! / Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse! ( Re: Compact disk recordable drive on VMS( Re: Compact disk recordable drive on VMS Compaq off to the doctors  Re: Compaq off to the doctors P Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses     allcrediP Re: Cooking in Salem [was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was! Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker) . DCL minute of the GMT+1 nite: Astalavista v1.2 DS20 license value error Re: DS20 license value error" ethernet boot diskless VAX-11/730?; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ( Re: Making bootable images from VMS disk OT: HandHeld IPAQ  port from VAX to APLHA problem" Re: port from VAX to APLHA problem Re hobbyist license  Re hobbyist license  Re: Re hobbyist license  Re: Re hobbyist license ( Re: Samba frustrations on reboot... fix!( Re: Samba frustrations on reboot... fix! setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight  Re: setting the record straight ' Re: show system reports wrong NODE NAME  Re: Time Sync Software Re: Time Sync Software Re: Time Sync Software Re: TYPE suggestion ) Re: VAX emulator model and serial numbers ) Re: VAX emulator model and serial numbers ) Re: VAX emulator model and serial numbers 7 Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)  Re: Writing COM files   WTB:Freeware 4 or 5 CD for sale?$ Re: WTB:Freeware 4 or 5 CD for sale?; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The P Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of cP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise    of compP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The demise       of comp: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was TheP Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of     compaq O Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of   compaq ) M Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq ) M Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq ) 9 Re: [Q] Why is there the limit of 8 levels of directories   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 18:28:54 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)  Subject: .CLD to .RNH generator = Message-ID: <55f85d77.0201221828.7c9c684b@posting.google.com>   ; Was there some software that could generate a template .RNH @ file from a .CLD? I kind of partially remember something lurkingB somewhere along those lines (but then again I do have a really badA memory - worse than most people I know - so I'm probably wrong or  plain forgot).  1 I'm looking for something that could scan a .CLD:    define  verb            add L         parameter       p1, label = option, prompt = "What", value(required,3                                 type = add_options)          routine         cli_add   # define  type            add_options :         keyword         course, syntax = add_course_syntax<         keyword         message, syntax = add_message_syntax6         keyword         user, syntax = add_user_syntax  ; Then automagically generate a template .RNH something like:    .BREAK 1  ADD .BREAK     <Insert ADD description here> .BLANK	    Format  .BLANK"    ADD { COURSE | MESSAGE | USER } .BREAK	 2  COURSE   	 etc, etc.   D In this way you could just simply fill in help text and not worry if@ you have forgotton something or not presented it in a consistent format.    Many thanks!   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 12:47:08 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) % Subject: Re: A mouse friendly OpenVMS 3 Message-ID: <nMACUx85ASTc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   i In article <Yzh38.317$PZ4.6168@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:   N > It is the one place that a port isn't straightforward - heck, the Motif codeM > even *thought* it was set up for portability - having all the file stuff in N > a platform dependent module.  But that didn't stop assumption creep into theM > code that calls the file logic - like the use of UNIX file semantics in the E > names, and the use of "." and ".." for current directory and parent ' > directory, or "~" for home directory.   G I have ported code to VMS that *thought* it was set up for portability, F and even had been tested on both Unix and Microsoft Windows.  They hadJ a configurable character that you put between a subdirectory specification1 and a filename to build a file specification :-(.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:42:08 +0100 1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> ! Subject: Re: A position statement 5 Message-ID: <3C4DC090.9D33CFE8@swissonline.delete.ch>    "Dr. Dweeb" wrote: > 
 ... (snip) > M > It is completely relevant and there is no notion or explicit reference that L > I recall, that such an "assumption" has been made.  Please point to it for > my edification.  > M > It is the same information that the analysts, customers and journalists et. < > al. use to evaluate and form opinions and recommendations. > K > Matters of public record are completely legitimate sources of information L > for analysing the actions and motivations of a company and its executives.H > The quality of much of this information is guaranteed by quite a largeK > number of laws.  It may not all be perfectly accurate, it may at times be M > incomplete and obfuscated, but EVERYONE on the outside with the inclination I > and interest (and this includes all the Gartner types and Goldman Sachs F > types as well as you and me) use this and other (sometimes privatelyK > obtained) information to form the information base for their conclusions. N > When corporations are caught out lying, the results are usually not a prettyK > sight, so most individuals involved do not unless they absolutely have no K > choice.  We, as recipients must rely to a large extent on the veracity of D > published and recorded statements from companies and its officers. > I > You can dispute the information's veracity, but you must do so based on F > alternative verifiable sources, otherwise you position is untenable. > I > You can dispute the reasoning based on theoretical logic or alternative  > reasoning/explanation. >   ? Doc, I am not saying that Bill cannot draw conclusions from the ; published data but such conclusions - based on assumptions, F probabilities and just plain guess work - is only OPINION.  Compaq hasC not, to my knowledge, confirmed Bill's opinion and this is the only , action that would make his comments factual.  D I am also confident that there are business reasons that Compaq haveC never disclosed, and without the knowledge of those reasons Bill is  indulging in speculation.   F His attempts to present it as facts - with comments that Compaq *will*B do this or *will* do that - is more speculation, speculation that,F because it is unconfirmed, is only slightly different to FUD from Sun, IBM and others.   D His approach is destructive to VMS and, according to contacts withinH Compaq, is only hardening the company's attitude to this newsgroup.  (ItE is unfortunate that the times when one may want to know the source of E certain information are also usually the times that to disclose those + sources would be most detrimental to them.)   F Constantly hounding Compaq over a decision made almost 7 months ago isC extremely unlikely to cause a reversal of that decision.   The cake D mixture as been beaten together and the individual components reallyF cannot now be extracted.  The very most that can be hoped for are someH minor concessions and because of this I can see almost nothing in Bill'sH action that is in any way positive for VMS.  (It is just barely possibleE that something might happen if the merger failed and Tru64 could work D with VMS and thus provide the financial support for Alpha, but to me this is a very long shot.)    A Instead of being retro-active we need to be pro-active and try to F prevent actions that are detrimental to VMS.  We need to bring about a; change of mindset with the pivotal decision-influencers and  decision-makers within Compaq.  B Now for my money there are two real possibilities and these may be& independent or may be acting together.  F The first option is that the decision-advisors are presenting VMS in aE poor light and their comments are being accepted at face value by the F decision-makers.  In particular the senior marketing people (operatingC across the tops of the four groups) may be saying that according to @ their sources VMS has no real future and there is no significantC potential market for it, and that to promote it would be a complete  waste of money and time.  ? The second option is that the decision-makers have reached this G conclusion for themselves, perhaps against the advice of their advisory ' teams or perhaps in greemet with them.    F The problem is that we don't know which situation applies, but we needC to know this in order to raise effective counter-arguments.  If the F obstacle is only the advisors then we can go over them and communicate? directly with Capellas (et al) who make decisions about company E strategy.  If the obstacles touch the actual decision-makers then the B only way to step over them is to communiate with the shareholders.  = I am inclined to think that it is the decision-makers because D (a)  Michael Cappellas was a CIO and should know his stuff about IT,A (b)  the continued emphasis on PCs is illogical when personal PCs  constantly lose money D (c)  downplaying of the most productive assets is a decision that is made at the top of the tree   E I have seen various comments that Capellas is a smart and honest guy, H but then Enron was claimed to be a well-run company.  I just don't know.  G All I do know is that we need to address the obstacle (or obstacles) to C VMS, not some event in the past and especially not in a way that is  detrimental to VMS.      John McLean    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:19:34 -0000 - From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) ! Subject: Re: A position statement 7 Message-ID: <919EBA90Ewarrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>   4 mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch (John McLean) wrote in+ <3C4DC090.9D33CFE8@swissonline.delete.ch>:    
 -- snip --  B >Instead of being retro-active we need to be pro-active and try toG >prevent actions that are detrimental to VMS.  We need to bring about a < >change of mindset with the pivotal decision-influencers and >decision-makers within Compaq.    -- snip --    L This is just the type of go-get-em attitude that OpenVMS needs Mr. McLean.  H Since the management types (in my experience) don't do well in brutally A logical arguments, you might well be the perfect man for the job!    ws   --     Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)  The Associated Press  @ ** When Windows is your hammer, everything looks like a thumb **   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:02:47 -0500 % From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> ! Subject: Re: A position statement , Message-ID: <3C4E0BB1.23542E32@videotron.ca>   John McLean wrote:A > Doc, I am not saying that Bill cannot draw conclusions from the = > published data but such conclusions - based on assumptions, < > probabilities and just plain guess work - is only OPINION.    M Cuts both ways. When Compaq does not reveal real/hard numbers and information K about VMS, neither you nor Bill can state facts, we can only have opinions.   L And when you are forced to draw conclusions because Compaq won't reveal hardL numbers, what is so wrong with looking at the past to see what sort of trendK has emerged and what sort of other related decisions have been made to draw 0 what one thinks is the real roadmap for Compaq ?   > Compaq hasE > not, to my knowledge, confirmed Bill's opinion and this is the only . > action that would make his comments factual.  H If Compaq dislikes public opinions such as Bill's, then Compaq need only provide hard facts about VMS.     F > I am also confident that there are business reasons that Compaq haveE > never disclosed, and without the knowledge of those reasons Bill is  > indulging in speculation.   N And so are you and everyone else. It is exactly because Compaq seems to have aK hidden agenda it won't reveal with VMS that people speculate about terrible U scenarios. Compaq need only provide hard information about VMS to kill those rumours.   M Now, are we allow to draw any conclusions by the fact that Compaq chooses not K to reveal hard information to kill the rumours that the naysayers discuss ? J Seems to me that those rumours are helping Compaq with its long term goal.  F > His approach is destructive to VMS and, according to contacts withinE > Compaq, is only hardening the company's attitude to this newsgroup.   H Who is more important: the Compaq employee who dislikes the customer who* complains, or the customer who complains ?  E In a customer focused corporation, customer complaints are taken very D seriously and the corporation takes actions not only to resolve thatF particular issue but also to prevent other such events from happening.  G If Compaq dislikes these types of opinions, how come it doesn't want to 6 prevent them from happening by releasing hard facts ?   J Could it be because the hard facts would actually confirm those opinions ?  H > Constantly hounding Compaq over a decision made almost 7 months ago is: > extremely unlikely to cause a reversal of that decision.  N But that June 25 announcement, both the decision and the way it was announced,N and the fact that it was announced before the VMS engineers were involved in aL feasability of the project has set the stage for other decisions. With Tru64  dealt with, the next one is VMS.  H Some may prefer to sound the alarm as soon as the ship starts to take onN water, others will ignore the danger until the power is turned off, and othersP will only believe it is happening when  the tops of the chimneys are underwater.  H > cannot now be extracted.  The very most that can be hoped for are someJ > minor concessions and because of this I can see almost nothing in Bill's- > action that is in any way positive for VMS.d  L If someone kills another person, do you figure that because the deed is doneN and irreversible, it is not worth pointing fingers at the deed and the culpritK ? If you fear that the culprit is about to commit another murder, shouldn'tc? you point to the first one as an indication of things to come ?     C > Instead of being retro-active we need to be pro-active and try toE/ > prevent actions that are detrimental to VMS. e    J But some don't even admit that Compaq is on a route that is detrimental toM VMS. And when you accuse Bill and others of speculating etc, you put yourselftT on the side of the poeple who think that all is fine and that Compaq can be trusted.  H > The problem is that we don't know which situation applies, but we need> > to know this in order to raise effective counter-arguments.   M And you also need to know to whom you have to raise the counter arguments. If F you convince Capellas but Capellas is powerless to change the  "VMS isL legacy/proprietary/dead end" attitudes, then you have just wasted your time.    F > (a)  Michael Cappellas was a CIO and should know his stuff about IT,  J There are plenty of CIOs who are convinced that NT will rule the world andN that every company should embark on NT for everything NOW even though NT isn'tM ready, simply because they feel that since NT is the future, you should startcK now. So, sorry, just because Capellas had a CIO title doesn't mean that he 0 thinks that VMS has a future.l    C > (b)  the continued emphasis on PCs is illogical when personal PCs  > constantly lose moneya  J Dell doesn't seem to be constantly losing money. And Compaq was doing fineH with its PC business until it got Digital. Digital is DEAD. GONE. KAPUT.B Compaq is a PC company and you cannot expect it to become Digital.  K When Pfeiffer was fired,  Rosen and friends should have clearly stated thateL Compaq would focus back on the wintel business and phase out the prorpietaryL stuff. That would have made it clear what they goals were. But instead, theyI chose to be ambiguous because they wanted to retain the VMS revenus whiled5 trying to be a PC business. The 2 are not compatible.n   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jan 2002 23:19 CST ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)t! Subject: Re: A position statementY- Message-ID: <22JAN200223192906@gerg.tamu.edu>a  ) JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> writes... N }Is EV7 going to be available in anything less than wildfire-class machines ?   E I would hope so. It should make spectacularly performing systems with A up to 5 CPUs. (Why 5? Because each CPU has 4 high speed interchipeC communication channels allowing for a maximum of 5 CPUs for each tovD have a direct connection to all of the others.) This would allow forE an "ES50" that would outperform anything else in its class, and a lot E of higher end systems too - something like the current situation with  the ES45, only more so.e   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:09:01 -0500 5 From: "Brad McCusker" <Brad.McCuskerNOSP@MCompaq.com>i, Subject: Re: Advanced Server 7.3 - exploded.1 Message-ID: <Ujm38.330$PZ4.7282@news.cpqcorp.net>n  6 "Patrick Young" <P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU> wrote in message6 news:55f85d77.0201220657.a5a20cd@posting.google.com...B > "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNOSP@Mcompaq.com> wrote in message- news:<3rX28.261$PZ4.4583@news.cpqcorp.net>...  > > Patrick, > > 8 > > It would appear that your SAM database is corrupted. > >aC > I don't want to embark on any "major surgery", reconstruction, ore@ > otherwise at this time as things are getting busy for start ofE > session, although I am _very_ worried as to what caused this in ther > first place. >n  J I understand, but, there is still something wrong, and, you ought to cleanF it up now, before a load increase that I think is coming your way.  OrH worse yet, before learning that the couple thousand users you just added
 are all lost.m  I Try a couple things, to see how healthy you are.  Try showing all groups.cD Try showing all users, /FULL.  Do either of those commands cause youL problems?  If not, so far, so good.  Now, try to find a share that was ownedH by, or has specific permissions for one of those formerly corrupt users. NotaH a new share or resource, but an old one, with the old permissions on it. TryjK to access it from some non-priv'd user.  Anything bad happen?  (If I wasn'tnJ clear, I want the server to try to resolve security associated with one of thosee bad user objects).  / It is also possible that everything will be OK.   J > > The SAMCHECK utility, though it is generally reliable, is unsupported, andp >l > E > "generally reliable" is not a term I would generally associate withe> > OpenVMS or it's layered products, more a M$ Window(tm) term.  E Well, that is why its unsupportd right?  It came from AT&T, we use iteJ for what we need, and it works for what we need.  The rest is unsupported.   >I can'tB > for example ever remember my SYSUAF or RIGHTSLIST files becomingD > corrupted, or indeed any data files from applications I've written? > using indexed sequential files (except for my own programming= > errors!).t  B My statement "generally reliable" refered to SAMCHECK, not the SAMI database files.  As anyone close to Advanced Server knows, in the not too K distant past, "generally reliable" would be considered an overly optimistic I description of the SAM database files.  But, we believe we have fixed theo? problems associated with SAM corruption, and we believe the SAMoA databases to be rock solid. And, we need to know if we are wrong!2   >2C > I'll in no way hold yourself or Compaq responsible over this - myuC > feeling is it is yet another example of M$ doing their usual overr> > code that may have needed to be included in Advanced Server.  H Well ,thanks, but, lets not forget that AT&T was involved here too, but,5 none of that is any excuse.  We are VMS.  'Nuff said.k   -Bradi   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:57:22 -0000e- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) ! Subject: Re: Asking  your opinionn7 Message-ID: <919EA49B7warrenspencer1977@209.249.90.100>f  3 susan.skonetski@compaq.com (Sue Skonetski) wrote in.' <2tH18.162$PZ4.1506@news.cpqcorp.net>: n  
 -- snip --   > . >Advanced Server and PATHWORKS Hints and Kinks >M >TCP/IP and IPV6 Updatee >pF >Best Practices for VMS Performance for 2002 proven tools, techniques, >approachesy >d >OpenVMS Hints and Kinks  K Sure you want to use the work "Kinks"?  Not a word Redmonians would use in i. describing their arguably  inferior product...   ws   -- a   Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)l The Associated Press  @ ** When Windows is your hammer, everything looks like a thumb **   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jan 2002 21:42:49 GMT7 From: yehavi@vms.huji.ac.il (Yehavi Bourvine (58-4279))o, Subject: Bidirectional parallel port driver?% Message-ID: <2002Jan22.214249@hujicc>a   Hello,I   I inheritted a lab device which connects to the parallel port and workslO bidirectionaly. On a PC it works, but on VMS the read QIO fails on the parallel G device driver (LRA0). Any idea about a parallel port driver which is bieM directional? If not, where can I find an LP driver source which I can modify?a  ?                                               Thanks! __Yehavi:s   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:22:27 GMTt1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>o0 Subject: Re: Bidirectional parallel port driver?2 Message-ID: <3C4DC95C.76548329@clarityconnect.com>  F The OpenVMS driver for the parallel port is unidirectional.  DIRECTORYD SYS$EXAMPLES:LRDRIVER and you will see a driver example based on the parallel port driver.e  " "Yehavi Bourvine (58-4279)" wrote: >  > Hello,K >   I inheritted a lab device which connects to the parallel port and worksvQ > bidirectionaly. On a PC it works, but on VMS the read QIO fails on the parallelyI > device driver (LRA0). Any idea about a parallel port driver which is bi O > directional? If not, where can I find an LP driver source which I can modify?y > A >                                               Thanks! __Yehavi:w   --  D Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NY0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:24:41 -0500a* From: Chuck Chopp <ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com>0 Subject: Re: Bidirectional parallel port driver?+ Message-ID: <3C4DE6A9.4251B1A5@rtfmcsi.com>h   "Mark D. Jilson" wrote:m  H > The OpenVMS driver for the parallel port is unidirectional.  DIRECTORYF > SYS$EXAMPLES:LRDRIVER and you will see a driver example based on the > parallel port driver.e >s$ > "Yehavi Bourvine (58-4279)" wrote: > >t
 > > Hello,M > >   I inheritted a lab device which connects to the parallel port and works S > > bidirectionaly. On a PC it works, but on VMS the read QIO fails on the paralleliK > > device driver (LRA0). Any idea about a parallel port driver which is bisQ > > directional? If not, where can I find an LP driver source which I can modify?  > >iC > >                                               Thanks! __Yehavi:  >o > --H > Jilly   - Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Lockwood, NYL >         - jilly@clarityconnect.com                      - Brett Bodine fanL >         - Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com                        - since 1975 or so5 >         - http://www.jilly.baka.com               -e  N BlackBox makes some serial->parallel and parallel-serial converters.  I've notT checked for certain, but they have have a converter that is fully bidirectional.  IfR they do, you could just hook it up to a serial port and use standard terminal $QIOR calls to read/write data.  Doing anything "special" with the parallel port controlK signals would be out of the question in that case, but it still might work.      -- Chuck Chopp   8 ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com            http://www.rtfmcsi.com0                                   ICQ # 22321532@ RTFM Consulting Services Inc.     864 801 2795 voice & voicemail2 103 Autumn Hill Road              864 801 2774 fax4 Greer, SC  29651                  800 774 0718 pager7                                   8007740718@skytel.comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 00:04:54 +0100t From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Big MIME problems& Message-ID: <3C4DF016.6080206@home.nl>  F We have discovered a big problem with MIME, and that is applicable to - MIME V1.4 (VMS 7.2-1 and MIME V1.5 (VMS 7.3).e  @ MIME is used in a commandfile to send bulk e-mail to customers..  H We used MIME to edit a "dear customer' letter, and saved that letter as F a template. In the commandfile this template is copied to a new file, E this file is opened by MIME (open /draft), and a zipped data file is  H added (add file.zip /enc=base64/content=x.....). The the file is saved,  and MIME is closed.   G When we used a small letter, everything went well. Now we use a letter cH with about 30 lines (3 blocks), and the text part in the resulting MIME F message gets corrupted ! The end of the text is at the beginning, the H beginning of the text has disappeared, and the middle of the text is at G the end. On the line with the MIME header that separates the text from iF the zip file, there are a few characters in front of the MIME header, B with the result that mail programs don't find the MIME header and  display the zip file as text.o   Has anyone seen this before ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 00:24:05 +0100a9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>  Subject: Re: Big MIME problems' Message-ID: <3C4DF495.FEF69CAE@aaa.com>w   Not exacly that problem.> I was doing some test with MIME.EXE a couple of years ago, but; decided to use freeware MIME tools instead (MPACK/MUNPACK).e8 I didn't liked the way MIME handled it's files. MIME.EXEA is quire clear designed to be used interactively from a terminal,0? and MPACK/MUNPACK have a more "normal" commmand line interface.   < And I only tried MIME with mail that was "attachement-only".   Well, no real answer maybe...    Jan-Erik Sderholm.e     Dirk Munk wrote: > G > We have discovered a big problem with MIME, and that is applicable tod/ > MIME V1.4 (VMS 7.2-1 and MIME V1.5 (VMS 7.3).n > B > MIME is used in a commandfile to send bulk e-mail to customers.. > I > We used MIME to edit a "dear customer' letter, and saved that letter assG > a template. In the commandfile this template is copied to a new file,-F > this file is opened by MIME (open /draft), and a zipped data file isI > added (add file.zip /enc=base64/content=x.....). The the file is saved,m > and MIME is closed.t > H > When we used a small letter, everything went well. Now we use a letterI > with about 30 lines (3 blocks), and the text part in the resulting MIMErG > message gets corrupted ! The end of the text is at the beginning, theuI > beginning of the text has disappeared, and the middle of the text is atjH > the end. On the line with the MIME header that separates the text fromG > the zip file, there are a few characters in front of the MIME header,nC > with the result that mail programs don't find the MIME header anda > display the zip file as text.  >  > Has anyone seen this before ?O   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:23:38 -0500n# From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov>rX Subject: RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC: Message-ID: <NEBBIALHDHJMJINPGMOAGEGNECAA.dallen@nist.gov>  7 	Well CDC was certainly writing in assembler (Compass).    > -----Original Message-----* > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.com]* > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:59 AM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com,H > Subject: RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what > went wrong at DECc >  > F > Well, Cutler had a thing about assembler.  He rewrote our PL/I lexerH > in Macro, which had been written in PL/I as a state machine, so it wasM > about as efficient as you could get with a high-level language.  He did gettL > some improvement in the compilation speed (remember, this was on 780s) but > theuD > price he paid was too high, lack of poratbility, extensibility and > maintainability. > M > It is interesting to note from this period, that most of the major computerrK > manufacturers wrote their system code in some high-level language, except  > Dec.I > Burroughs used Algol, Honeywell PL/I, IBM a version of PL/I called PLS.a > PrimeiK > and DG also did PL/I variants for systems programming.  Stratus had PL/I,a > don'tg > remember what CDC or Wang had  >  > > -----Original Message-----7 > > From: Jeremy Barker [mailto:jeremybarker@email.com]a+ > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:33 AMo > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComtJ > > Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what > > went wrong at DECa > >o > >oD > > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message1 > > news:<V53Z7.267$5Y4.5736@news.cpqcorp.net>...h$ > > > Simon Clubley wrote in message/ > > <0H2Z7.2548$cD4.5034@www.newsranger.com>... 1 > > > >On Thu, 03 Jan 02 09:34:42 GMT, in article'$ > > <a11g1s$1s3$2@bob.news.rcn.net>, > > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:o > > > >> > > > >>In article > > >dF > > >><Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washi > > ngton.EDU> > > >  ,7 > > > >>   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote: * > > > >>>On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:M > > > >>>> > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what is the propera > > > >>>> > word here...iL > > > >>>>    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before BLISS-36).	 > > > >>>sB > > > >>>Only people who can't program in any language would be so > > stupid as to4 > > > >>>prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language.	 > > > >>>hK > > > >>>BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly language.  But on thea > > >  PDP-10,$ > > > >>>BLISS was a complete waste. > > > >>) > > > >>And made den mothers very cranky.n > > > >> > > > >>/BAH > > > >>/ > > > >>Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.t > > > >iN > > > >[Since I have left the cross-post to alt.sys.pdp10 in, I should mentionN > > > >that I am speaking from the viewpoint of a VMS person, and I have never > > > >used a PDP-10.] > > > >eN > > > >Having seen many pro _and con_ BLISS comments over the years I have nowH > > > >become interested in understanding what attributes of BLISS cause( > > > >such firm feelings on both sides. > > > >eB > > > >Note that I have never written a program in BLISS, but I am > > aware of theE > > > >general syntax of BLISS-32. I do have experience in a range of 
 > > languageseN > > > >however (from Pascal type languages, to C/Perl, to assembly languages),5 > > > >so comparisons to other languages are welcome.q > > > >rB > > > >I should also comment that, since this does seem to inspire > > strong feelingsk> > > > >for some reason, I am interested in the _facts_ and not > > religious fanatico > > > >type responses. :-) :-) > > > >e > > >  > > >oN > > > Just religion.  Larry will tell you that Ada is the best language.  UNIXB > > > hacks will tell you C.  The kiddies will tell you JAVA.  I'm > > sure someone > > > still loves RPG-II.  > > >sL > > > BLISS was something out of Carnegie Mellon that attempted to provide aC > > > language that was suitable for writing system level code.  Itn > > was a HLL, butC > > > had semantics that would lend itself well to a high degree ofy > > control for  > > > the generated code.e > > >aE > > > The early VMS developers jumped on it as a way to write much ofl > > the kernel: > > > code for VMS - as opposed to writing it in Macro-32. > >s > > That's incorrect.e > >eJ > > In the early versions of VMS almost all the kernel code was written inC > > what was called Macro-32 on release (the assembler language waspE > > codenamed MARS during development).  As I recall (I would welcomePI > > correction) about the only kernel-type code that was written in BLISSpF > > in VMS V1 was the FILES-11 ACP - thanks to Andy Goldstein - and, IF > > think, RMS-32.  Everything in the kernel proper that was basicallyH > > controlled by Dave Cutler and Dick Hustvedt was written in Macro-32.I > > BLISS was mostly used in the various native-mode utility programs.  I-J > > was once told that some parts of VMS V1 were written in "Brown" - thisA > > being a hard to maintain version of Macro-32 that was full ofDI > > impenetrable macros written by someone called Brown (used for the DCLtF > > interpreter IIRC).  I believe the first kernel System Service codeJ > > that was written in BLISS was the redone image activator in VMS V3 (or > > it may have been V4).  > >5I > > There was a DEC internal policy (in the Software Development PolicieswJ > > and Procedures) dating from around the time that VMS was born that allJ > > code would be written in BLISS unless there were compelling reasons toJ > > use something else.  My understanding was that Cutler argued that onlyC > > by using Macro-32 could the kernel code be made to have optimal-I > > performance.  Given the reputation that Cutler had for tweaking Macrom& > > code that's altogether believable. > >c > > > The language itself M > > > never caught on.  It's kind of a strange language - it is an expressionP? > > > language, even though most people write it as a statement7 > > oriented language.N > > > The often complained about attribute is the "." dot indirection operatorL > > > (you need to specify that you want the contents of a location, not the > > > address of the location).a > >eF > > The dot operator is logically correct (or at least you construct aJ > > coherent argument to prove that it is) but it's quite true to say thatH > > it caused no end of problems for a careless programmer.  Even thoughD > > in my software engineer days I considered myself an expert BLISSH > > programmer I still had the occasional slip.  The one thing BLISS didJ > > not have was data types.  For most things that wasn't a problem but itH > > did allow dangerous things - like unconstrained pointer arithmetic -3 > > that strongly typed languages protect you from.r > >wA > > > I once spent a few years writing a lot of BLISS - but I nowe > > only touch it to4 > > > bugfix things.  Most new code is written in C. > >sH > > When I write programs these days (I should explain that since I leftC > > DEC 9 years ago I've become a lawyer) I often use C but I would H > > really, really like to have a BLISS compiler for the x86/NT system IJ > > play around with at home.  I have no ideal language but Eiffel perhapsG > > comes close.  For practical production use I would choose Borland'sn; > > Delphi (which is an object-oriented Pascal derivative).r > >r > > jb > >n >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:23:28 -0800s# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>eX Subject: RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEMPDPAA.tom@kednos.com>w  H Well I know that was true early on, I even coded it in ascent and asper.E I know we license PL/I to them in 78, but that was for a customer.  Id thought - that they actually had used Fortran for SCOPE    > -----Original Message-----* > From: Dan Allen [mailto:dallen@nist.gov]* > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:24 AM' > To: Tom Linden; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComcH > Subject: RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what > went wrong at DECs >r >a >v9 > 	Well CDC was certainly writing in assembler (Compass).u >w > > -----Original Message-----, > > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.com], > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:59 AM > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComwJ > > Subject: RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what > > went wrong at DEC  > >t > >hH > > Well, Cutler had a thing about assembler.  He rewrote our PL/I lexerJ > > in Macro, which had been written in PL/I as a state machine, so it wasC > > about as efficient as you could get with a high-level language.M
 >  He did getkA > > some improvement in the compilation speed (remember, this was0 > on 780s) but > > the F > > price he paid was too high, lack of poratbility, extensibility and > > maintainability. > >7@ > > It is interesting to note from this period, that most of the > major computer< > > manufacturers wrote their system code in some high-level > language, except > > Dec.K > > Burroughs used Algol, Honeywell PL/I, IBM a version of PL/I called PLS.o	 > > PrimerC > > and DG also did PL/I variants for systems programming.  StratusH > had PL/I,s	 > > don'tu! > > remember what CDC or Wang had  > >d  > > > -----Original Message-----9 > > > From: Jeremy Barker [mailto:jeremybarker@email.com]a- > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:33 AMr > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com*L > > > Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what > > > went wrong at DECe > > >n > > >1F > > > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message3 > > > news:<V53Z7.267$5Y4.5736@news.cpqcorp.net>...D& > > > > Simon Clubley wrote in message1 > > > <0H2Z7.2548$cD4.5034@www.newsranger.com>...a3 > > > > >On Thu, 03 Jan 02 09:34:42 GMT, in articler& > > > <a11g1s$1s3$2@bob.news.rcn.net>,! > > > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:n
 > > > > >> > > > > >>In article > > > >sH > > > >><Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washi > > > ngton.EDU>
 > > > >  ,9 > > > > >>   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote:-, > > > > >>>On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:A > > > > >>>> > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think whato > is the properd > > > > >>>> > word here...eC > > > > >>>>    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before  > BLISS-36). > > > > >>>tD > > > > >>>Only people who can't program in any language would be so > > > stupid as to6 > > > > >>>prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language. > > > > >>>tA > > > > >>>BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly language.h > But on the > > > >  PDP-10,& > > > > >>>BLISS was a complete waste.
 > > > > >>+ > > > > >>And made den mothers very cranky.L
 > > > > >> > > > > >>/BAH
 > > > > >>1 > > > > >>Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.I	 > > > > > A > > > > >[Since I have left the cross-post to alt.sys.pdp10 in, I  > should mentionC > > > > >that I am speaking from the viewpoint of a VMS person, andg > I have never > > > > >used a PDP-10.]	 > > > > >.? > > > > >Having seen many pro _and con_ BLISS comments over the5 > years I have nowJ > > > > >become interested in understanding what attributes of BLISS cause* > > > > >such firm feelings on both sides.	 > > > > >uD > > > > >Note that I have never written a program in BLISS, but I am > > > aware of theG > > > > >general syntax of BLISS-32. I do have experience in a range ofr > > > languagesl; > > > > >however (from Pascal type languages, to C/Perl, toE > assembly languages),7 > > > > >so comparisons to other languages are welcome. 	 > > > > >rD > > > > >I should also comment that, since this does seem to inspire > > > strong feelingsh@ > > > > >for some reason, I am interested in the _facts_ and not > > > religious fanatica  > > > > >type responses. :-) :-)	 > > > > >) > > > >a > > > >p@ > > > > Just religion.  Larry will tell you that Ada is the best > language.  UNIXvD > > > > hacks will tell you C.  The kiddies will tell you JAVA.  I'm > > > sure someone > > > > still loves RPG-II.  > > > > A > > > > BLISS was something out of Carnegie Mellon that attempted  > to provide aE > > > > language that was suitable for writing system level code.  Itk > > > was a HLL, butE > > > > had semantics that would lend itself well to a high degree ofk > > > control for  > > > > the generated code.i > > > >lG > > > > The early VMS developers jumped on it as a way to write much ofe > > > the kernel< > > > > code for VMS - as opposed to writing it in Macro-32. > > >i > > > That's incorrect.  > > >nL > > > In the early versions of VMS almost all the kernel code was written inE > > > what was called Macro-32 on release (the assembler language wascG > > > codenamed MARS during development).  As I recall (I would welcomeiK > > > correction) about the only kernel-type code that was written in BLISS H > > > in VMS V1 was the FILES-11 ACP - thanks to Andy Goldstein - and, IH > > > think, RMS-32.  Everything in the kernel proper that was basicallyJ > > > controlled by Dave Cutler and Dick Hustvedt was written in Macro-32.K > > > BLISS was mostly used in the various native-mode utility programs.  I0L > > > was once told that some parts of VMS V1 were written in "Brown" - thisC > > > being a hard to maintain version of Macro-32 that was full oflK > > > impenetrable macros written by someone called Brown (used for the DCL(H > > > interpreter IIRC).  I believe the first kernel System Service codeL > > > that was written in BLISS was the redone image activator in VMS V3 (or > > > it may have been V4).d > > >iK > > > There was a DEC internal policy (in the Software Development PoliciestL > > > and Procedures) dating from around the time that VMS was born that allL > > > code would be written in BLISS unless there were compelling reasons toL > > > use something else.  My understanding was that Cutler argued that onlyE > > > by using Macro-32 could the kernel code be made to have optimaleK > > > performance.  Given the reputation that Cutler had for tweaking Macroa( > > > code that's altogether believable. > > >O > > > > The language itselfeA > > > > never caught on.  It's kind of a strange language - it isr > an expressionfA > > > > language, even though most people write it as a statementh > > > oriented language.; > > > > The often complained about attribute is the "." dot  > indirection operator< > > > > (you need to specify that you want the contents of a > location, not the6! > > > > address of the location).R > > >MH > > > The dot operator is logically correct (or at least you construct aL > > > coherent argument to prove that it is) but it's quite true to say thatJ > > > it caused no end of problems for a careless programmer.  Even thoughF > > > in my software engineer days I considered myself an expert BLISSJ > > > programmer I still had the occasional slip.  The one thing BLISS didL > > > not have was data types.  For most things that wasn't a problem but itJ > > > did allow dangerous things - like unconstrained pointer arithmetic -5 > > > that strongly typed languages protect you from.w > > >EC > > > > I once spent a few years writing a lot of BLISS - but I nowM > > > only touch it to6 > > > > bugfix things.  Most new code is written in C. > > > J > > > When I write programs these days (I should explain that since I leftE > > > DEC 9 years ago I've become a lawyer) I often use C but I would J > > > really, really like to have a BLISS compiler for the x86/NT system IL > > > play around with at home.  I have no ideal language but Eiffel perhapsI > > > comes close.  For practical production use I would choose Borland'sN= > > > Delphi (which is an object-oriented Pascal derivative).e > > >  > > > jb > > >M > >  > >s >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 14:31:38 -0500 # From: "Dan Allen" <dallen@nist.gov>mX Subject: RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC: Message-ID: <NEBBIALHDHJMJINPGMOAAEGOECAA.dallen@nist.gov>  : 	My experience with both SCOPE and NOS/BE was all Compass.   > -----Original Message-----* > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.com]) > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 2:23 PM-& > To: Dan Allen; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComH > Subject: RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what > went wrong at DEC: >  > J > Well I know that was true early on, I even coded it in ascent and asper.G > I know we license PL/I to them in 78, but that was for a customer.  Ir	 > thought / > that they actually had used Fortran for SCOPEd >  > > -----Original Message-----, > > From: Dan Allen [mailto:dallen@nist.gov], > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 11:24 AM) > > To: Tom Linden; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComhJ > > Subject: RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what > > went wrong at DECl > >  > >M > > ; > > 	Well CDC was certainly writing in assembler (Compass).  > >u  > > > -----Original Message-----. > > > From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.com]. > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 10:59 AM > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComrL > > > Subject: RE: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what > > > went wrong at DECe > > >o > > >rJ > > > Well, Cutler had a thing about assembler.  He rewrote our PL/I lexerL > > > in Macro, which had been written in PL/I as a state machine, so it wasE > > > about as efficient as you could get with a high-level language.n > >  He did getIC > > > some improvement in the compilation speed (remember, this wase > > on 780s) but	 > > > the H > > > price he paid was too high, lack of poratbility, extensibility and > > > maintainability. > > >uB > > > It is interesting to note from this period, that most of the > > major computer> > > > manufacturers wrote their system code in some high-level > > language, except
 > > > Dec.M > > > Burroughs used Algol, Honeywell PL/I, IBM a version of PL/I called PLS.6 > > > PrimewE > > > and DG also did PL/I variants for systems programming.  Stratus4
 > > had PL/I,n > > > don't># > > > remember what CDC or Wang had4 > > >i" > > > > -----Original Message-----; > > > > From: Jeremy Barker [mailto:jeremybarker@email.com] / > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 7:33 AM0! > > > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComCN > > > > Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what > > > > went wrong at DEC  > > > >  > > > >eH > > > > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message5 > > > > news:<V53Z7.267$5Y4.5736@news.cpqcorp.net>... ( > > > > > Simon Clubley wrote in message3 > > > > <0H2Z7.2548$cD4.5034@www.newsranger.com>...p5 > > > > > >On Thu, 03 Jan 02 09:34:42 GMT, in articlet( > > > > <a11g1s$1s3$2@bob.news.rcn.net>,# > > > > > >jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:  > > > > > >> > > > > > >>In article	 > > > > >lJ > > > > >><Pine.NXT.4.50.0201021812310.18819-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washi > > > > ngton.EDU> > > > > >  ,; > > > > > >>   Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote: . > > > > > >>>On 2 Jan 2002, Bob Koehler wrote:C > > > > > >>>> > But Macro-10 is such a ......Gee let me think what  > > is the proper  > > > > > >>>> > word here...eE > > > > > >>>>    Enough to drive you to learn BLISS-10 (as in before  > > BLISS-36).
 > > > > > >>> F > > > > > >>>Only people who can't program in any language would be so > > > > stupid as to8 > > > > > >>>prefer BLISS over PDP-10 assembly language.
 > > > > > >>>eC > > > > > >>>BLISS may be preferable over PDP-11 assembly language.S > > But on the > > > > >  PDP-10,( > > > > > >>>BLISS was a complete waste. > > > > > >>- > > > > > >>And made den mothers very cranky.P > > > > > >> > > > > > >>/BAH > > > > > >>3 > > > > > >>Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.a > > > > > > C > > > > > >[Since I have left the cross-post to alt.sys.pdp10 in, Ii > > should mentionE > > > > > >that I am speaking from the viewpoint of a VMS person, andt > > I have never > > > > > >used a PDP-10.] > > > > > > A > > > > > >Having seen many pro _and con_ BLISS comments over theh > > years I have nowL > > > > > >become interested in understanding what attributes of BLISS cause, > > > > > >such firm feelings on both sides. > > > > > > F > > > > > >Note that I have never written a program in BLISS, but I am > > > > aware of theI > > > > > >general syntax of BLISS-32. I do have experience in a range of  > > > > languagest= > > > > > >however (from Pascal type languages, to C/Perl, to  > > assembly languages),9 > > > > > >so comparisons to other languages are welcome.w > > > > > >uF > > > > > >I should also comment that, since this does seem to inspire > > > > strong feelingstB > > > > > >for some reason, I am interested in the _facts_ and not > > > > religious fanaticn" > > > > > >type responses. :-) :-) > > > > > >s	 > > > > >u	 > > > > > B > > > > > Just religion.  Larry will tell you that Ada is the best > > language.  UNIXuF > > > > > hacks will tell you C.  The kiddies will tell you JAVA.  I'm > > > > sure someone > > > > > still loves RPG-II.I	 > > > > >,C > > > > > BLISS was something out of Carnegie Mellon that attemptedt > > to provide aG > > > > > language that was suitable for writing system level code.  It  > > > > was a HLL, butG > > > > > had semantics that would lend itself well to a high degree ofe > > > > control for  > > > > > the generated code.a	 > > > > >oI > > > > > The early VMS developers jumped on it as a way to write much ofl > > > > the kernel> > > > > > code for VMS - as opposed to writing it in Macro-32. > > > >c > > > > That's incorrect.n > > > > N > > > > In the early versions of VMS almost all the kernel code was written inG > > > > what was called Macro-32 on release (the assembler language waswI > > > > codenamed MARS during development).  As I recall (I would welcomelM > > > > correction) about the only kernel-type code that was written in BLISS J > > > > in VMS V1 was the FILES-11 ACP - thanks to Andy Goldstein - and, IJ > > > > think, RMS-32.  Everything in the kernel proper that was basicallyL > > > > controlled by Dave Cutler and Dick Hustvedt was written in Macro-32.M > > > > BLISS was mostly used in the various native-mode utility programs.  IgN > > > > was once told that some parts of VMS V1 were written in "Brown" - thisE > > > > being a hard to maintain version of Macro-32 that was full of.M > > > > impenetrable macros written by someone called Brown (used for the DCLrJ > > > > interpreter IIRC).  I believe the first kernel System Service codeN > > > > that was written in BLISS was the redone image activator in VMS V3 (or > > > > it may have been V4).t > > > >oM > > > > There was a DEC internal policy (in the Software Development PoliciesuN > > > > and Procedures) dating from around the time that VMS was born that allN > > > > code would be written in BLISS unless there were compelling reasons toN > > > > use something else.  My understanding was that Cutler argued that onlyG > > > > by using Macro-32 could the kernel code be made to have optimalsM > > > > performance.  Given the reputation that Cutler had for tweaking Macror* > > > > code that's altogether believable. > > > >s > > > > > The language itself C > > > > > never caught on.  It's kind of a strange language - it isi > > an expression C > > > > > language, even though most people write it as a statementt > > > > oriented language.= > > > > > The often complained about attribute is the "." dotl > > indirection operator> > > > > > (you need to specify that you want the contents of a > > location, not the # > > > > > address of the location).  > > > > J > > > > The dot operator is logically correct (or at least you construct aN > > > > coherent argument to prove that it is) but it's quite true to say thatL > > > > it caused no end of problems for a careless programmer.  Even thoughH > > > > in my software engineer days I considered myself an expert BLISSL > > > > programmer I still had the occasional slip.  The one thing BLISS didN > > > > not have was data types.  For most things that wasn't a problem but itL > > > > did allow dangerous things - like unconstrained pointer arithmetic -7 > > > > that strongly typed languages protect you from.  > > > >OE > > > > > I once spent a few years writing a lot of BLISS - but I nowt > > > > only touch it to8 > > > > > bugfix things.  Most new code is written in C. > > > >:L > > > > When I write programs these days (I should explain that since I leftG > > > > DEC 9 years ago I've become a lawyer) I often use C but I woulduL > > > > really, really like to have a BLISS compiler for the x86/NT system IN > > > > play around with at home.  I have no ideal language but Eiffel perhapsK > > > > comes close.  For practical production use I would choose Borland'st? > > > > Delphi (which is an object-oriented Pascal derivative).g > > > >s
 > > > > jb > > > >u > > >l > > >  > >M >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2002 03:18:17 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>X Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong at DEC- Message-ID: <87hepew5xi.fsf@prep.synonet.com>p  . jeremybarker@email.com (Jeremy Barker) writes:  E > In the early versions of VMS almost all the kernel code was writteniD > in what was called Macro-32 on release (the assembler language wasC > codenamed MARS during development).  As I recall (I would welcome A > correction) about the only kernel-type code that was written indC > BLISS in VMS V1 was the FILES-11 ACP - thanks to Andy Goldstein -g > and, I think, RMS-32.   F The V1 RMS is BLISS free it seems. But it also seems to be RMS-11 with a few changes.  C >  Everything in the kernel proper that was basically controlled by C > Dave Cutler and Dick Hustvedt was written in Macro-32.  BLISS was.F > mostly used in the various native-mode utility programs.  I was onceE > told that some parts of VMS V1 were written in "Brown" - this beingsF > a hard to maintain version of Macro-32 that was full of impenetrableF > macros written by someone called Brown (used for the DCL interpreter > IIRC).  / Bill Brown? The macro seems mostlyu harmless...   E >  I believe the first kernel System Service code that was written ineE > BLISS was the redone image activator in VMS V3 (or it may have been> > V4).  A Bloody CVTLIS does not like old compilers... grrrr However, BLISSiA seems to be very thin on the ground in V1. But, by any reasonablerC limit, you could also argue the VMS is pretty thin on the ground as D well!! It is creepy looking back to that old RSX like layout. VMS asF we know it did not really emerge till V3. In those versions, BLISS wasA very hevily used, and the 'use all supported langs' policy can be- seen.    -- >< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.v@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:23:00 +0100 / From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>a@ Subject: Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible?4 Message-ID: <VA.00000521.4d861b73@bluewin.delete.ch>  J In article <k8sn4u8ehe1h5322lgos0c5pgqjovtrgpn@4ax.com>, Alan Greig wrote:H > On 20 Jan 2002 13:27:54 GMT, joechip31@hotmail.com (Herb Asher) wrote: > 2 > >On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 22:30:11 GMT, Tim Llewellyn* > ><tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > >t > >iJ > >>> Also, any uk vms people who can recomend a retailer for decommisonedL > >>> boxes? I have had a scan of the net, including ebay and it doesnt look > >>> that good. > >>W > >>www.prodec.co.uk used to , but they don't seem to have the Digital section anymore.  > >>; > >>How about a new low cost alpha from www.islandco.co.uk?n > G > Although it is www.islandco.com they do have a UK shipping operation.rG > Even before that was in operation I found that an order I placed with B > Island on a Monday evening (UK time) arrived Wednesday lunchtime > complete with UK power cord, > E I ordered one on a Friday and it arrived first thing Tuesday morning. H That caught me out, as I didn't look at my email (from the office) until( around the time it was arriving at home.  E > About $75 dollars for next day shipping to UK IIRC. Cheaper optionstE > available. Always the chance customs will slap import tax at aroundi? > VAT rate on it but most stuff gets through unchallenged in myaA > experience unless the packaging heavily flags it as commercial.t > F It was something like $180 IIRC for me (I was surprised how heavy mineF is). The VAT was payable on delivery. I got a US and UK power cord, so1 had to pinch one from something else temporarily.u  E Which reminds me, can someone tell me the colour coding of a US cord,  so I can put it to use?  ___t
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 19:01:24 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)e@ Subject: Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible?= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0201221901.47268309@posting.google.com>u  k Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> wrote in message news:<VA.00000521.4d861b73@bluewin.delete.ch>...o  G > Which reminds me, can someone tell me the colour coding of a US cord,t > so I can put it to use?o  D Black active, white neutral (As an Australian I spent my entire life4 wondering how strange that particular standard was).   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 04:09:54 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>v@ Subject: Re: building a vms box as a project.. is this possible?' Message-ID: <3C4E38A2.811C6DFB@fsi.net>h   Patrick Young wrote: > m > Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> wrote in message news:<VA.00000521.4d861b73@bluewin.delete.ch>...v > I > > Which reminds me, can someone tell me the colour coding of a US cord,  > > so I can put it to use?a > F > Black active, white neutral (As an Australian I spent my entire life6 > wondering how strange that particular standard was).  E As applied, since (in the states at least) you can have more than oneeB "active" wire in a conduit, it's generally the darker color that's? "hot", which also allows for color blindness to a large degree.e   -- c David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemsh http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 03:40:24 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>oY Subject: Re: Buns, cakes, crumpets and now teacakes [was Re: Younger recruits versusexpera' Message-ID: <3C4E31A2.D06E1EBB@fsi.net>p   Nic Clews wrote: > # > Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:t > >a8 > > Surely it's only a teacake if it has currants in it? > >  > > ;^D  > ( > Doesn't that make it a Hot Cross Bun ? > # > (If it has the X on it of course)m  E George Carlin (US comic) described "hot cross buns" this way: "That's > when a Ku Klux Klansman shoves a burning cross up your" (bum).   --   David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemsy http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 01:48:24 GMT 0 From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>/ Subject: Re: C++ appears to be available onlinee+ Message-ID: <3C4E1666.C1DCFBBE@mailbag.com>   G Now that I'm home and can check my print out, I do have a PAK for CXX-VtA in the layered product licenses that I recieved from the hobbyist A program. C is included on the Hobbyist CDROM but not C++; I woulda@ presume this is due to the sizes of the kits and everything elseF everyone wants on it. I can think of several products I'd like to have  on there including the C++ kit.   G If you, or someone else at Compaq, could put the most recent version of F C++ up on the web site along with the Alpha kit, I know I'd appreciate it.    Thanks,    Kenneth Block wrote: >  > Is the question: > I > Is there a VAX version of the C++ kit? Or is there a VAX version of the  > hobbyist program for Vax?0 > N > I do not know how the Hobbyist program works. The last release of Compaq C++L > for Vax for over a year ago. If there is a hobbyist program for VAX and itK > does include a C++ license. We could look into putting that kit up on the  > Web. >  > Ken Blocki > Compaq C++ > ? > "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com> wrote in messagen9 > news:63f0b8f5.0201220816.7a12d529@posting.google.com...C; > > "Kenneth Block" <krblock@computer.org> wrote in messagev/ > news:<jz338.284$PZ4.5117@news.cpqcorp.net>...eI > > > Yes, hobbiests are encouraged to download the kit. Hopefully in the  > futureM > > > there will be enough room on the CD for it. For commericial users, keept > in1 > > > mind that Compaq C++ is a licensed product.i > > H > > This may be an FAQ, but I haven't seen it yet as a VMS/VAX hobbyist. > >JF > > Is there a VAX version of this kit available as well? Or is this a) > > product that is only availble on AXP?: > >o > > Thanks,e > >h > > Williamw   Williaml --  * You better watch out    What you wish for;+ It better be worth it   So much to die for.--                                 Courtney Loven   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jan 2002 19:26:29 GMT1 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com>c8 Subject: Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse!8 Message-ID: <a2ked5$acq$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 03:09:53 GMT   From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>8 Subject: Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse!+ Message-ID: <3C4E29A0.C2068D73@prodigy.net>a  O My guess would be that most of them are very minor protective patents, designedtB more for defense (i.e. to establish a priority date) than offense.  4 But that's JMHO -- I haven't looked at them, either.   Dave Gudewicz wrote: > 6 > I didn't look at them, but my guess would be "most". > 	 > Dave...  > / > "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in message ' > news:3C4D177F.B6C69378@prodigy.net...  > > Dave Gudewicz wrote: > > >A7 > > > The company with the most patents last year?  IBM  > > 4 > > How many of those were significant to computing? > >g > > >." > > > Not technical?  I think not. > > > 
 > > > Dave...a > > >r3 > > > "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in message-+ > > > news:3C4A77A2.10B4003F@prodigy.net...aF > > > > I consider IBM more a financial services company than anything > technical. > > > >i > > > > Bob Ceculski wrote:B	 > > > > >nG > > > > > What makes IBM profitable?  It is not just software services. L > > > > > It is the hardware!  When you provide a superior hardware platformK > > > > > (power) that can run software that is secure, can scale well, and I > > > > > run 24x7, then software services soar ... Capellas is doing thenJ > > > > > opposite, he is giving away the industries best hardware (alpha)N > > > > > to a competitor and thinks software services will rake in the dough,L > > > > > except, because your competitors are all selling the same hardwareJ > > > > > platform, you have just entered the same low dollar, high volumeK > > > > > market that pc's are in right now!  It's the hardware that drives K > > > > > software and services dummy!  Now power is not superior to alpha,.J > > > > > but it will be to itanium ... after ev7 moves aside for itanium,H > > > > > IBM will take over.  IBM has got out of the pc business.  TheyB > > > > > know the future is the high end and server consolidation > (mainframes)L > > > > > are the future.  Now either Capellas and the whole board at CompaqG > > > > > are total idiots or they actually work secretly for intel andoC > > > > > microsoft.  Which is it?  I tend to believe the later ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:21:09 -0500d0 From: "Scott G. Smith" <s-gsmith@mindspring.com>8 Subject: Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse!/ Message-ID: <u4sehrsd20kt2b@corp.supernews.com>    From IBM web sites:o   IBM    3,411 patents in 2001 HP         978 Intel       809    Printing group   189 Research          593  Server              533  Storage            136 Technology    1,235   K Over 1/3 of 2000 patents are already in products and services.  5.3 millionn7 drives manufactured with "pixie dust" magnetic coating.t  A I don't think most of these patents are for protective purposes!!     - "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messaget% news:3C4E29A0.C2068D73@prodigy.net... H > My guess would be that most of them are very minor protective patents, designedD > more for defense (i.e. to establish a priority date) than offense. >s6 > But that's JMHO -- I haven't looked at them, either. >o > Dave Gudewicz wrote: > >a8 > > I didn't look at them, but my guess would be "most". > >a > > Dave...  > >s1 > > "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in message ) > > news:3C4D177F.B6C69378@prodigy.net...a > > > Dave Gudewicz wrote: > > > >i9 > > > > The company with the most patents last year?  IBM  > > > 6 > > > How many of those were significant to computing? > > >a > > > >e$ > > > > Not technical?  I think not. > > > >t > > > > Dave...i > > > >l5 > > > > "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messaget- > > > > news:3C4A77A2.10B4003F@prodigy.net... H > > > > > I consider IBM more a financial services company than anything > > technical.	 > > > > >u > > > > > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > > > > > > I > > > > > > What makes IBM profitable?  It is not just software services.oE > > > > > > It is the hardware!  When you provide a superior hardwarea platformI > > > > > > (power) that can run software that is secure, can scale well,o and K > > > > > > run 24x7, then software services soar ... Capellas is doing the3L > > > > > > opposite, he is giving away the industries best hardware (alpha)I > > > > > > to a competitor and thinks software services will rake in thee dough,E > > > > > > except, because your competitors are all selling the samen hardwareL > > > > > > platform, you have just entered the same low dollar, high volumeF > > > > > > market that pc's are in right now!  It's the hardware that drivesF > > > > > > software and services dummy!  Now power is not superior to alpha,L > > > > > > but it will be to itanium ... after ev7 moves aside for itanium,J > > > > > > IBM will take over.  IBM has got out of the pc business.  TheyD > > > > > > know the future is the high end and server consolidation > > (mainframes)G > > > > > > are the future.  Now either Capellas and the whole board ata CompaqI > > > > > > are total idiots or they actually work secretly for intel andwE > > > > > > microsoft.  Which is it?  I tend to believe the later ...e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 06:15:18 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>8 Subject: Re: Capellas wants IBM model, but does reverse!A Message-ID: <Wxs38.54239$jd7.4249581@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>c  - "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messageb% news:3C4E29A0.C2068D73@prodigy.net...tH > My guess would be that most of them are very minor protective patents, designedD > more for defense (i.e. to establish a priority date) than offense. >36 > But that's JMHO -- I haven't looked at them, either.  L I've looked at a few dozen (involving distributed storage/file system areas)K and most had elements that made me worry about possibly having to find ways G to work around them - i.e., they covered useful and at least moderately E general techniques.  I have heard that IBM is fairly reasonable aboutaL granting use rights, so they *may* mostly have them for protection and/or as6 trading pieces when dealing with other patent-holders.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 17:23:03 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) 1 Subject: Re: Compact disk recordable drive on VMSo= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0201221723.34e83fd9@posting.google.com>o  P "nesa" <nebojsam@eunet.yu> wrote in message news:<a2j94k$fuj$1@news.eunet.yu>...  B > Please help me with  using compact disk recordable drive on VMS.  D I use one at home (Sony CRX145S) and at work (RICOH CD-R/RW MP7060S)? which is getting a bit old now. Both SCSI. I have not tried IDEo writers under OpenVMS.  = You should obtain a copy of CDRTOOLS which contains CDRECORD.a@ Please see the OpenVMS FAQ (topic File 7) for more information -  5 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.htmlO   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 03:37:55 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 1 Subject: Re: Compact disk recordable drive on VMSh' Message-ID: <3C4E310B.83F7ABFF@fsi.net>e   nesa wrote:c > B > Please help me with  using compact disk recordable drive on VMS.	 > Thanks, 	 > Nebojsal   See:   http://www.tmesis.com/cdrom/$ http://www.djesys.com/vms/cdrom.html. ftp://v36.chemie.uni-konstanz.de/cdrecord_vms/  ) Others exist. Please see the OpenVMS FAQ:   5 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html    -- i David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemsd http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:12:08 +0100.1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>:" Subject: Compaq off to the doctors5 Message-ID: <3C4DE3B8.D3E8B823@swissonline.delete.ch>t  H I noticed this today in Yahoo's news about Compaq.  It actually mentions	 OpenVMS !V  D The "blah"s are mine.  :>)   and yes, it was spelt as "Open VMS" not
 "OpenVMS".     John   -------------------------e    G HOUSTON, Jan. 22 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Moving the IT data center ofuE an entire hospital system is never an easy job. When Baptist Memorial H Health Care Corp. in Memphis, Tennessee decided to re-locate to its new,F state-of-the-art East Memphis location, the health care organization'sG IT staff recognized that the process would require skill and precision.   H After evaluating all of the leading enterprise vendors, Baptist selectedA Compaq Computer Corporation (NYSE: CPQ - news) for its $5 million.C investment in a new information technology system that consolidates"D hospital and medical group systems for greater efficiency and easier
 expansion.  G Blah, blah, blah =85 wanted to replace technology that was more than 10r years old=85  G The backbone of the system is a new Compaq SAN-based enterprise storagekF network that will allow Baptist to build out its IT infrastructure =85 blah, blah, blah    H ``The architecture of our StorageWorks system allows Baptist to make the> most of the resources they have, hardware as well as software.F Modularity and scalability are core benefits of our strategy=85. Blah,
 blah, blah    J blah, blah, blah =85" We considered proposals from several providers, and=  G we found that Compaq could provide the best technology and performance,S/ as well as the most cost-effective solutions.''d   Blah, blah, blah=85   C Compaq and Pomeroy developed the fault-tolerant solution for moving D Baptist Healthcare into a high-end SAN enterprise environment, whichF includes three TB of storage and over 64 servers. Part of this processH was the integration of Compaq solutions including: ProLiant Windows 2000G servers, ProLiant Netware servers, Open VMS Alpha Server GS systems ande< StorageWorks Fibre Channel SAN and SAN-based tape libraries.     Blah, blah, blah   About Baptist =85.   About Compaq =85. etc.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 19:57:20 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t& Subject: Re: Compaq off to the doctors3 Message-ID: <VZthe7m15yxE@eisner.encompasserve.org>A  i In article <3C4DE3B8.D3E8B823@swissonline.delete.ch>, John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> writes:t > J > I noticed this today in Yahoo's news about Compaq.  It actually mentions > OpenVMS !   E > Compaq and Pomeroy developed the fault-tolerant solution for movingkF > Baptist Healthcare into a high-end SAN enterprise environment, whichH > includes three TB of storage and over 64 servers. Part of this processJ > was the integration of Compaq solutions including: ProLiant Windows 2000I > servers, ProLiant Netware servers, Open VMS Alpha Server GS systems and > > StorageWorks Fibre Channel SAN and SAN-based tape libraries.  E I am surprised it does not name the application partner (Cerner, IDX,  IntraSystems, etc.).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:52:03 -0500s+ From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@intel.com>uY Subject: Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses     allcredi 8 Message-ID: <rkcr4ukqna9rltqjvn250t02sdolm2ears@4ax.com>  C On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 11:44:45 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>t wrote:   >Steve Lionel wrote:E >> For OpenVMS IA64, Intel and Compaq are jointly developing compilertI >> products and these would continue to have new releases as scheduled byeC >> Compaq. It is not intended to be a "one-shot".  Intel and Compaq D >> engineers would be working together to create these releases, the" >> details again vary by language. >dM >Is it fair to state then that over time, having a common code base for Alpha M >and IA64 will become increasingly difficult due to the evolving compilert onn/ >one platform and the mature one on the other ?d  C Well, some compilers won't have a common code base between IA64 and2C Alpha, so for them, the question is irrelevant.  For Fortran, whichwF will have a mostly-common code base, we're trying to keep things goingD in parallel as long as we can.   I'm not sure what this means in theE long run, though - we're not promising to keep Alpha products in-stepaB with IA64 functionality, and in fact, you should assume that WON'T happen.u  B It's sort of like VAX - new development on VAX died down and AlphaF kept going. I haven't added a new feature to VAX Fortran in years (norD am I going to start now, though I do have one bug fix that I haven't released yet...)     Steve Lionel Compaq Fortran Engineering Intel Corporation<
 Nashua, NH  . Compaq Fortran - http://www.compaq.com/fortranK Intel Fortran - http://developer.intel.com/software/products/compilers/f50/l   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:33:14 -0800l< From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@intel.com>Y Subject: Re: Cooking in Salem [was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( wast) Message-ID: <3C4DF6BA.FC38D40C@intel.com>   ! Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:r  E > Well if it was bought in Salem, perhaps it was magicked rather thans > cooked...e  <     Good try but wrong Salem: the witch hunts were in Salem,( Massachusetts, not Salem, Oregon...  :-)  F     Speaking of OR and bread (or the lack of anything resembling it!),F having recently "migrated" from the SF Bay area to Portland, we concurE that (Portlanders at least) can't tell the difference between "bread"w and cardboard!!!  Sigh... :-(u       -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 03:32:50 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>^* Subject: Re: DCL "compiler"? (not checker)' Message-ID: <3C4E2FDB.37AF7087@fsi.net>r   Didier Morandi wrote:  > P > Before starting a DCL compiler which of course will compile nothing but ratherI > produce some cross references, maps, variables, channels and open/closeyN > inventory, etc, I would like to know if this has been done by someone around > here already.o > = > I did a scan of the V4 and V5 freeware CDs without success.: > M > To check long procedures, of course I use DCL_CHECKER, which is to DCL whata5 > GraphicConverter is to photo editing on the MAC :-)B > M > But to build a documentation of a thousand lines DCL procedure, I thought ao1 > (kind of) "compiler" would be more than useful.c > J > Syntax: $ DCLCOMP myproc /cross/map/noobject oooops... no, not /noobject  E Actually, a DCL to MACRO32 "transpiler" (watch it! A notorious lurker B owns that word as a tradename or something...) would be wonderful.  D Yes, there once was a DCL to Fortran translator. Trouble is, FortranD doesn't ship with every VMS distro. (MACRO32 does) and the resultingC program, once compiled and LINKed, required a proprietary RTL which " served as the licensing mechanism.   -- : David J. DachteraV dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:45:37 +0100a, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch>7 Subject: DCL minute of the GMT+1 nite: Astalavista v1.2n& Message-ID: <3C4DC161.A08F002F@gmx.ch>  K Searching the two FREEWARE CDs (which are actually three) for an occurrenceoN gives too much occurrences if you use one word without separators, for exampleP DCL. Of course, you can do a search on " DCL " but you will miss items separatedM with commas, one space, a semi-colon, a single quote, two double quotes, etc.   M Here is ASTALAVISTA.COM version 2-1 which allows this item separation search.oL To give better results, it now adds in the thesaurus file each word enclosed
 with a space.   J The interest compared to a single search on the whole disk is speed. the BO (build) function builds a thesaurus for a whole disk with, for all words found, N the full specification of the files where they were found. The "S" (search) isO done once from the thesaurus, and then from the target file(s), which obviouslyhV goes much faster than scanning the whole files each time you search for an occurrence.  - Enjoy.  - $!+  $! ASTALAVISTA.COMP $! How to build a single word index with DCL and find line numbered occurrences.9 $! V1.0-0 14-mar-2001 D. Morandi  (Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch)dF $! V1.1-0 23-may-2001 DMo         add multi-extention processing (*.*)6 $! V1.2-0 09-nov-2001 DMo         add HTML skip table.L $! V1.2-1 22-jan-2002 DMo         fix typo when previous thesaurus was found $!-g
 $ set noon $ say = "write sys$output" $START:s4 $ if p1 .eqs. "" then inq p1 "Search or Build (S/B)" $ if p1 .eqs. "" then exit) $ p1 = f$extract(0,1,f$edit(p1,"upcase")))$ $ if p1 .nes. "S" .and. p1 .nes. "B" $ then $    p1 = "" $    goto STARTe $ endif % $ if p1 .eqs. "S" then goto DO_SEARCHt $EXT_PLEASE: $ if p2 .eqs. "" then -.A      inq p2 "Disk:[dir]*.ext or [] ([*...]*.* allowed) <RET>=end"4 $ if p2 .eqs. "" then exit! $ doc_type = f$parse(p2,,,"type")A $ if doc_type .eqs. "."t $ then $    say ""y4 $    say "Please supply an extension for your files" $    say ""n $    p2 = "" $    goto EXT_PLEASE $ endifn $ if f$search(p2) .eqs. "" $ then $    say ""t: $    say "I'm afraid there are no ",p2," files here, Sir." $    say ""p $    p2 = "" $    goto EXT_PLEASE $ endif  $ p2 = p2 - ";"s, $ doc_type = f$edit(doc_type,"upcase") - "."E $ if f$search("sys$login:thesaurus_''doc_type'.dat") .nes. "" .and. -o      doc_type .nes. "*"s $ then $    say "" I $    say "A previous THESAURUS_''doc_type'.DAT file exists in SYS$LOGIN:" 3 $    inq ok "Do you want to build a new one [Y/N]?"e $    if .not. ok then exit $ endif  $ if doc_type .eqs. "COM"s $ thenN $    skip_table = ".and..eq..eqs..gt..ge..ges..gts..le..les..lt..ne..nes..or."6 $    skip_table = skip_table + """#&'()-|_@[]$*,;:! "L $    skip_table = skip_table + "ifthenelseendifgosubgotoreturnexit$deck$eod"< $    skip_table = skip_table + "openclosereadwriteappendend" $ endifa5 $ if doc_type .eqs. "HTM" .or. doc_type .eqs. "HTML"   $ thenC $    skip_table = "<html><head><body><table><tr><td><hr><b><br><p>"   $    skip_table = skip_table + -L                   "</html></head></body></table></tr></td><hr></b></br></p>" $! (to be completed...)  $ endif 8 $ if f$search("dir.temp") .nes. "" then dele_ dir.temp;* $ start_time = f$time()  $ say "" $ say "Time is ",start_timev $ say "working..." $ say "" $ on warning then exit! $ say "[building documents list]"wI $ dire_/col=1/notrail/noheader/out=dir.temp/exclude=[vms$common...] 'p2';e
 $ set noon $ close/nolog ch $ close/nolog ch2s $ close/nolog ch3i	 $ nbf = 0e	 $ nbw = 0- $ open/read ch dir.temp-P $ if f$search("temp$temp.not_sorted") .nes. "" then dele_ temp$temp.not_sorted.* $ say "[processing documents]" $ say ""% $ open/write ch3 temp$temp.not_sortedD $LOOP: $ read/end=EOF ch file! $ file = f$edit(file,"lowercase")B $ say "processing ",file $ nbf = nbf + 1  $ open/read ch2 'file' $LOOP2:p $ read/end=EOF2 ch2 line7 $ line=f$edit(line,"trim,compress,lowercase,uncomment")eM $ if line .eqs. "$" .or. line .eqs. "$ " .or. line .eqs. "$!" then goto LOOP2iM $ if line .eqs. ""  .or. line .eqs. " "                       then goto LOOP2 ( $ if f$locate(" ",line) .eq. f$len(line) $ thenB $    line = line - "'" - "'" - "'" - "," - """" - """" - "" - " "B $    line = line - "'" - "'" - "'" - "," - """" - """" - "" - " "8 $    if f$extract(f$len(line)-1,1,line) .nes. ":" then -         write ch3 line," ",filel $    goto LOOP2t $ endiff $ i=0  $LOOP3:  $ word = f$element(i," ",line)? $ word = word - "'" - "'" - "'" - "," - """" - """" - "" - " "l? $ word = word - "'" - "'" - "'" - "," - """" - """" - "" - " " 6 $ if word .eqs. " " .or. word .eqs. "" then goto LOOP22 $ if f$extract(0,1,word) .eqs. " " then goto LOOP2 $ i=i+1c $ if doc_type .eqs. "COM"  $ thenP $    if f$extract(f$len(word)-1,1,word) .eqs. ":" then goto LOOP3   !skip labelsH $    if f$locate(word,skip_table) .ne. f$len(skip_table) then goto LOOP3F $    if f$extract(0,2,word) .eqs. "$!" then goto LOOP3  !skip comments $ endif>5 $ if doc_type .eqs. "HTM" .or. doc_type .eqs. "HTML" i $ thenH $    if f$locate(word,skip_table) .ne. f$len(skip_table) then goto LOOP3 $ endifeI $ write ch3 " ",f$edit(word,"trim,compress,uncomment,lowercase")," ",file  $ nbw = nbw + 1M $ goto LOOP3 $EOF2: $ close ch2r $ goto LOOP  $EOF: 
 $ close ch $ close ch3W $!+oM $! NB If you build the system disk thesaurus, log in under the system accountw0 $! or you will run out of virtual memory *now* ! $!-  $ say "[end of processing]"c  $ say "[sorting resulting file]"L $ if doc_type .eqs. "*" then doc_type = ""              !delete symbol valueG $ sort/key=(pos:1,size:80)        temp$temp.not_sorted temp$temp.sortedh $ say "[removing duplicates]" 4 $ merge/key=(pos:1,size:80)/nodup temp$temp.sorted -D                                   sys$login:thesaurus_'doc_type'.dat> $ dele_ temp$temp.not_sorted;*, temp$temp.sorted;*, dir.temp;*E $ say "[done. Thesaurus file is SYS$LOGIN:THESAURUS_''DOC_TYPE'.DAT]"! $ say ""% $ say "starting time was ",start_time # $ say "ending   time is  ",f$time() 3 $ say nbw," words stored from ",nbf," files in ",p2k $ say "" $ exitP $!------------------------------------------------------------------------------ $DO_SEARCH:i $ if p2 .eqs. "" then inq p2 -=   "Item to search (enclose more than one with double quotes)"a $ if p2 .eqs. "" then exit> $ if f$search("search.temp") .nes. "" then dele_ search.temp;* $ search = "search"h? $ search/output=search.temp sys$login:thesaurus_*.dat " ''p2' "- $ if $severity .eqs. "1" $ then $    close/nolog chr $    open/read ch search.tempc $LOOP_S: $    read/end=EOF_S ch lineB! $    file = f$element(2," ",line)-: $    if file .eqs. " " .or. file .eqs. "" then goto LOOP_S $    say ""j $    say f$edit(file,"upcase") $    if p3 .eqs. ""6	 $    thenyL $       search/numbers 'file' " ''p2' ","""''p2'""","""''p2' "," ''p2'""", -;                               ",''p2' "," ''p2',",",''p2',"i	 $    elseaN $       search/log/noout 'file' " ''p2' ","""''p2'""","""''p2' "," ''p2'""", -;                               ",''p2' "," ''p2',",",''p2',"e
 $    endif $    goto LOOP_S $EOF_S:d
 $    close cht $ endif  $ dele_ search.temp;*o $ exit   D. --  H   ----------------------------------------------------------------------E MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmlsE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670w/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.   H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais Man spricht Deutsch se habla Castellano English spoken   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 14:39:46 -0800& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)! Subject: DS20 license value errorn= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0201221439.288678eb@posting.google.com>e  C I'm working on a DS20e 6/500 with dual processors, VMS V7.2-1, with(A HSZ70 attached storage.  No cluster, no other VMS systems onsite.I  6 According to the LURT from VMSLICENSE.COM, Type A (VMSF Capacity/Unlimited/Base) requires 70 units.  When this system boots upE I get the LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED error on the OPENVMS-ALPHA license, oncem; from the startup process just prior to the security startup-B (SECSRV-I-STARTING.....) and echoed in the operator log file.  TheD license, which came with the system as equipped from Compaq, is a 508 unit PAK for OPENVMS-ALPHA, NO_SHARE, but not MOD_UNITS.  A After the two startup gripes, the system continues startup and isdA completely usable.  There are no other OPENVMS-ALPHA licenses, nooF separate BASE license in the database, no LMF$SYSTEM database to throwF things off, but there is an OPENVMS-ALPHA-USER PAK with 200 units.  It is also a type A.c  B Are these two licenses combining to make things work?  If so, justA wondering why I get the startup error at all.  This is a correct, > supported system purchased from Compaq directly, and the sales= documentation  backs up the PAKs that were included.  Thanks!    Rich Jordanl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:02:33 -0500D0 From: "Island Computers" <dbturner@islandco.com>% Subject: Re: DS20 license value errort/ Message-ID: <u4s2sn9tiek82c@news.supernews.com>   / What abou the SMP license - is that loaded ????O DT   -- David Turner   We sell Alpha systems & parts- http://www.islandco.com  sales@islandco.com Island Computers US Corp.  2700 Gregory Street  Savannah GA 31404n Tel: 912 447 6622h Fax: 912 201 0096 1 Rich Jordan <jordan@ccs4vms.com> wrote in messageo7 news:cc5619f2.0201221439.288678eb@posting.google.com...aE > I'm working on a DS20e 6/500 with dual processors, VMS V7.2-1, witheC > HSZ70 attached storage.  No cluster, no other VMS systems onsite.  >d8 > According to the LURT from VMSLICENSE.COM, Type A (VMSH > Capacity/Unlimited/Base) requires 70 units.  When this system boots upG > I get the LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED error on the OPENVMS-ALPHA license, oncep= > from the startup process just prior to the security startup D > (SECSRV-I-STARTING.....) and echoed in the operator log file.  TheF > license, which came with the system as equipped from Compaq, is a 50: > unit PAK for OPENVMS-ALPHA, NO_SHARE, but not MOD_UNITS. >sC > After the two startup gripes, the system continues startup and isuC > completely usable.  There are no other OPENVMS-ALPHA licenses, noeH > separate BASE license in the database, no LMF$SYSTEM database to throwH > things off, but there is an OPENVMS-ALPHA-USER PAK with 200 units.  It > is also a type A.r >sD > Are these two licenses combining to make things work?  If so, justC > wondering why I get the startup error at all.  This is a correct,c@ > supported system purchased from Compaq directly, and the sales? > documentation  backs up the PAKs that were included.  Thanks!a >i
 > Rich JordanS   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2002 03:15:20 GMT3 From: du651@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Joseph Ballantyne)t+ Subject: ethernet boot diskless VAX-11/730?i/ Message-ID: <a2l9s8$e2t$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>e  C I need to boot a VAX-11/730 as a diskless satellite in a VAXclusterSF    where most of the nodes run VMS5.5-2H4.  (Sometimes there's anotherD    system whose DEQNA prevents it from booting VMS5.5-2; that one isH    stuck at VMS5.2.)  This is a short-term/immediate requirement, ratherE    than a spare-time hobby project, so I'm inclined to try to make doeD    with the parts on hand rather than doing something ornate such asA    http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/TU58_Emulator.htm did. 2 The relevant documents to which I have access are:G     -  EY-00014-DP "VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures" (the editionu1        that predates clustering and MOP booting);a7     -  EK-SI730-IN-001 "VAX-11/730 Installation Guide";nF     -  EK-1173-UG-003 (perhaps a typo for EK-11730-UG-003) "VAX-11/730H        Hardware User's Guide" pages iii through vi, 1-1 through 1-5, 2-1&        through 2-4, 2-39 through 2-49.F    I do not have a running system with a TU58 (so cannot write TU58s).G My first problem is that the TU58 capstan rollers have disintegrated ortC    are disintegrating.  That makes TU58 operations even slower than-B    usual, and necessitates many retries and much fiddling with theH    vertical position of the capstan roller on the motor shaft, to try toH    align the most solid area of a disintegrating capstan roller with theG    corresponding wheel in the cassette.  That mechanical problem aside, >    I believe that the only file which *must* come from TU58 isB    CONSOL.EXE, which implements the ">>>" prompt and correspondingC    commands.  Once the ">>>D"eposit command is available, the *.CPUhF    files and VMB.EXE can be pushed in via the console serial line.  MyF    first question: apart from ^C (which sometimes causes a failed TU58H    read to be retried), what can I enter to the "ROM>" prompt?  Is thereD    any equivalent to the ">>>D"eposit command that would allow me toD    enter CONSOL.EXE via the console serial line if the TU58 fails toD    deliver it?  (A parenthetic question: where is CONSOL.EXE loaded?D    There appears to be no room for CONSOL.EXE in /C space--the *.CPUC    files occupy all of /C space.  /U space appears to be read-only.oC    That leaves /P space.  If CONSOL.EXE goes into /P space, where?)sD The TU58 %%%BOO.CMD files include comments on the ">>>L"oad commandsE    which refer to "Version 57" and "Version 58".  Because some of thetH    *.CPU files show minor changes between versions and other *.CPU filesE    are identical between versions, I believe that the version numbers'H    refer to the tape overall, rather than to the individual *.CPU files.G    I have no idea what version of VMS was current when those TU58s werevD    published.  I have no reason to believe that the VMB.EXE that wasC    then current, and that appears on the tapes, knows how to boot apE    system via MOP.  I therefore push in the VMB.EXE that travels with-H    VMS5.5-2H4.  EY-00014-DP page 536 table 24-6 lists register inputs toG    VMB.EXE.  I believe, from inspecting TU58 %%%BOO.CMD files, that GR1 G    should contain %x3 as TR number of adapter.  I set GR2 to %x3F948 togE    request booting via DEUNA or DELUA.  I set GR3 to 0, GR4 to 0, andeE    GR5 to 0.  Second question: What should be the device type code intE    GR0<7:0>?  (Parenthetic question: where are the codes documented?)eC    (My first thought was to simply try all possibilities, but I nowoC    suspect (because repeated trials with the same register startingn<    values result in ?06 halts at different PCs) that VMB.EXE=    self-modifies; reloading VMB.EXE before each trial will bee     unpleasantly time consuming.)D I observe that the TU58 %%%BOO.CMD files that use the IDC explicitly>    specify the IDC's default vector %x00A8 in GR0<31:16> whileF    %%%BOO.CMD files for other devices specify %x0000 (meaning "use theH    default") in GR0<31:16>.  Third question: is there any reason, in theD    DEUNA/DELUA case, to prefer specifying either %x0000 or %x0050 in    GR0<31:16>?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:02:54 +0100r1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> D Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!5 Message-ID: <3C4DC56E.6E6F3C16@swissonline.delete.ch>C   David, nicely stated !  F There's a few comments that I've scattered through your text which may be relevant.   "David L. Cathey" wrote: >  ... < >         But an antagonistic approach isn't ever effective.  G True, not in a situation where you want someone to do something and aresE discussing it with them.  There is however the situation where others,H being antagonistic can make a change (eg. stockholders meeting where theE stockholders get downright aggressive).  I'm not advocating it or not C advocating it, I just wanted to make you aware of the possibility. e    FJ >         I think it's between incompetence, still not quite understandingK > what they have, and needing to concentrate on not losing money on some ofdM > their other products.  OpenVMS is still a cash cow for Compaq, and still ispK > in growth.  It needs to be fed, but it's helping support the bottom line.e  G I accept that it is a cash-cow but the cow will dry up without a decent0F amount of care and attention; even better would be to fatten it up.  IG see Compaq's failure to make a real effort to extend the market as sure.G way to cause the cow to go dry and the slaughterman be called.  At thisrD stage the cow is a only a little poorly and with only a small effort could easily recover.r    p4 >         So let's evaluate how that strategy works: > * > 1) You feel the VMS market is shrinking.6 > 2) You take action which accelerates this shrinkage.G > 3) OpenVMS goes from being a profit center of Compaq to losing money.r > 4) Gartner smiles with gleer7 > 5) Folks here get really happy about the situation...sN > 6) Compaq notices and magically reverses years of reduction in market share. > O >         My question, is how does one get from #5 to #6.  Jobs lost are likelywK > lost.  What magic bullet creates corporate demand for an Operating System"K > without regard for applications?  What "marketing" program will make your)K > boss giddy as a school girl and buy $100,000 or $500,000 or $1,000,000 ofy > OpenVMS goodies?  E You can compound this by saying that accelerated shrinkage also meansg= fewer applications, making the platform even less attractive.V  -  L >         Compaq has fought back from the downward spiral of OpenVMS revenueM > once.  It's not going to improve matters making them have to do it all overd > again.  D Yes, it did fight back ... and that was when VMS was given about $12G million to spend on advertising with an aim to increase sales by X%.  I G believe that the condition at the time was reach that % and Compaq will C really put some effort in to expand the VMS market; don't reach theaG target and we'll make funeral arrangements.  The target was met but thep- promise of increased effort was reneged upon.      L >         But hopefully I can at least make one or two stop and think.  It's8 > the "cutting of your nose to spite your face" concept.  F Yes, stopping even just one customer from moving away from VMS because9 of what Bill has said will be certainly worth the effort.      cheers,    John McLeanA   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:05:50 GMT"* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>D Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!A Message-ID: <ifm38.59018$QB1.4508875@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>s  8 "David L. Cathey" <davidc@montagar.com> wrote in message6 news:e565ed03.0201221015.58e462d@posting.google.com...7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message = news:<eC638.41676$jd7.2919998@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...?   ...   ? > > 'working together' has for many years been the goal only ofnH > > VMS's external supporters, not of VMS's owners.  After a long enough periodL > > of trying to 'work together' and failing utterly, people tend to get the/ > > idea that a different approach is required.$ >"4 > But an antagonistic approach isn't ever effective.  F John responded to this as well as I can:  it may not be effective in aK discussion, but when discussion has proven completely ineffective it can be  effective elsewhere.   ...e  , > So let's evaluate how that strategy works: >l* > 1) You feel the VMS market is shrinking.6 > 2) You take action which accelerates this shrinkage.G > 3) OpenVMS goes from being a profit center of Compaq to losing money.  > 4) Gartner smiles with gleeg7 > 5) Folks here get really happy about the situation...dG > 6) Compaq notices and magically reverses years of reduction in markets share. > G > My question, is how does one get from #5 to #6.  Jobs lost are likelyhK > lost.  What magic bullet creates corporate demand for an Operating SystempK > without regard for applications?  What "marketing" program will make yourdK > boss giddy as a school girl and buy $100,000 or $500,000 or $1,000,000 ofe > OpenVMS goodies?  L You don't understand the goal, so it's no wonder your logic fails to address the issues in getting there.  L I couldn't care less whether VMS's market is shrinking:  that's an *effect*,K not a *cause*, and minor steps taken to ameliorate that effect won't affectOC the underlying cause at all (see Compaq's complete disregard of thehH significant positive reaction to the up-turn in VMS sales last year with' even minimal efforts at encouragement).   J (I also couldn't care less what Gartner thinks, so won't bother to address< point 4 above.  In fact, nothing after point 3 is relevant.)  C Compaq is pretty obviously in a very precarious situation right now L (completely of its own making, so I have no pity to spare).  That means thatA even relatively minor changes may have major consequences - and a,E significant decline in profit from one of its few profitable businesse segments is not a minor change.w  G We can't cause that by ourselves, but we *can* ensure that Compaq's ownnI incompetence is fully exposed to the light of day rather than swept under H the rug.  Which, in turn, should force action where our sweet reason hasL never been able to.  One possibility is that seeing profits tank in the mainI segment that has kept Compaq afloat for the past few years will cause the G BoD to get rid of the management responsible for said past few (dismal) J years, and replace it with people we *can* talk effectively with.  AnotherH is that the stock price will fall far enough that a take-over by someoneI more competent will occur.  A third (though I'm not holding my breath) isiH that the imminent peril will cause those responsible for it to reexamine their own attitudes.   > , > The problem is there isn't a magic bullet.  D I believe there is, but it requires a major change in the way CompaqK *treats* VMS, not just in how it *markets* it.  If Compaq *visibly* commitstK to VMS development, marketing, and ISV encouragement to a degree that makes:I it clear that Compaq consider its own health really *dependent* on VMS's,hK that, more than anything else, will convince customers who might appreciateiL VMS but fear for its future that it *has* the kind of future they need to be able to depend on.  L That kind of attitude change is not going to occur because people here reachI out to encourage others to use VMS:  it hasn't in the past, and it didn't-J last year when VMS's fortunes rose noticeably.  It has to come from withinH Compaq.  But we *can* encourage conditions that promote (or force) majorF changes in attitude, and that's what I'm trying to do.  You may assessJ things differently, but I appreciate your willingness to discuss the issue  rather than merely throw stones.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:46:16 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>/D Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!' Message-ID: <3C4E2504.A8A45329@fsi.net>P   "David L. Cathey" wrote: > b > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3C4CE987.9CDB8B03@fsi.net>...
 > > [snip]D > > Perhaps ObL's "talents" would be more productive here than in heL > > international arena. Dunno. We've tried everything, but continue to loseJ > > ground. We can't even arrest the slide, and the Q are doing everything  > > can to accelerate the slide. > I >         That sounds really intelligent, David.  Sure, David, let's kill I > all the Compaq Executive, and then maybe they'll listen to you?  You're- > going off the deep end.B   I think you missed the point.n  E "Being nice" has failed miserably. Not sure why it works for the D/FW9E and Hobbyist folks and no one else, but that's just the way it is. SorD continuing that and expecting the results to change is a non-option.  G "Being negative" at least produces a response. Perhaps not the response-& desired, but a response none the less.  B The trick from here forward is to find *SOME*one at "the Q" who isD sufficiently self-assured that he/she can swallow his/her pride longC enough to say, "y'know - there's a *LOT* of folks out there who areeH pissed off at us. Maybe we oughtta re-think what we're doing and be moreH sensitive to the needs of our customers, as expressed by their employees in public fora".  ! Call me "PollyAnna", if you wish.h  J >         Just to give you an idea of how counter-productive this idea is,K > did you know that there were those in Compaq against the expansion of theSE > OpenVMS Hobbyist Program due to concerns about dealing with all thesI > complaints that "it still wasn't enough"?  Not that any of those peoplerJ > read comp.os.vms, but were familiar with the complaining that goes on to1 > think that it would be better off to not do it.u   That's backwards.o  C If you give some little bit, and some one says, "nice start for the,? bottom, but what have you got to go in the middle?", is it moreNF effective to say, "screw you then, you get NUTHIN'!!", or to say, "Oh?> What more do we need to do to serve your needs, Mr. Customer?"  E As you'll recall, I initially applauded OVMS Hobby - until I read theyH "non-commercial" clauses. When I asked, in essence, "what about the low-A to mid-level customers who have been begging for price breaks and-E affordable VMS?" (there's *THAT* word *_A_G_A_I_N_* *DAMN*!!!), I was A rather soundly rebuffed via Longwords. Do two wrongs make a rights somehow?  D Compaq needs to re-examine their perspective. They are the *VENDOR*.F *WE* are the customers. Compaq does not dictate to us, Compaq comes toH us and says, "Good Morning, Mr. Customer! What can we do for you today?"G or Mr. Customer will find someone who WILL! *THAT* is why VMS is in the4B state it's in, and as long as those contrary attitudes continue atE Compaq, VMS (and Compaq's stock price, by the way!) will stay "in the  tank".   Prove me wrong.5  F We are not the "Oliver Twist"'s of the world, and Compaq is not Fagan.? We do not hold our bowl over our heads and beg, "Please, sir!".R   > [snip]K >         "The Beatings will continue until moral imrpoves" is not now, norh# > likely to be a successful tactic.S  E You're preaching to the choir again, not to mention directing that topA the wrong audience. If Compaq expects morale in this newsgroup to.G improve, my suggestion would be to do something about it besides cop anhC attitude, break promises, cut product lines and services, and raiseA prices.S   Prove me wrong.N  .G > > Talking up VMS here and being positive, here and in other fora, hasuD > > consistently failed to produce results for years. This is easilyJ > > documentable by search the Google archives and mapping OpenVMS's slideB > > during the same period(s). So that's obviously not the answer. > L >         Are you kidding?  It's one thing that has helped OpenVMS continue,   Oh? Can you cite some examples?   F I will admit, when I first started reading (and later posting to) this@ newsgroup, sure, there was the occasional curmudgeon, but it was# generally upbeat and very helpful. h  G Then, the cutting began. Publications disappeared. Sites switched to NTnF (many at Digital's urging!), the VMS job market slowly began to dry up! until now it is all but a memory.A  < How did positivity contribute to any abatement in this area?  D ...or are you saying it would have been less severe if people didn't& follow their natural urge to complain?  H > by providing a place where people can get useful information about theL > usage, care and feeding, and assistance for OpenVMS - especially for those > just getting into using one.  G Yes, the S/N ratio here has gotten way out of hand, and I am as much tot8 blame as anyone. Compaq is not helping, either, however.  @ As long as the talk continues, and positive, effective action isC lacking, comp.os.vms and other newsgroups will suffer. This is bothA certain and unavoidable.  C > > Compaq can easily stop all this negativism - simply, easily andnL > > effectively: prove it wrong. So simple, perhaps, that only a child couldK > > do it - it may be beyond the average business type at teh Q or anywherer	 > > else.a > < >         Bullshit - your negativism can be stopped by you.   G Really? ...and exactly what can I do to ensure that Compaq doesn't makeiF promises it can't keep? ...exactly what can I do to ensure that CompaqF returns VMS to prosperity and popularity and profitability? ...exactly< what can I do to ensure that Compaq motivates ISVs to createD applications for VMS? ...exactly what can I do to ensure that CompaqD prices VMS correctly so that end-users can afford to buy it, and canE cost-justify it against systems and software costing 50% to 90% less, F and which have a large stable of trained, experienced SysAdmins at theA ready in the job market, and which have a large stable of populart" applications ready for the buying?   > If you, and only > you, chose to do so. .  F You over-estimate my influence in this world. I can do nothing to takeB away the motivation for these complaints. That power, as I've saidA before, say now, and will continue to say until someone hears it,pE understands it and responds to it in a positive manner, lies *SOLELY*a with Compaq - *NO ONE* else.  4 > You've bitched about every program (Hobbyist, Edu,L > CSA/ASAP) they have put out.  Nothing seems to be enough, nothing is cheap! > enough, nothing is free enough.n  H ...and what has Compaq done to address these concerns? ...besides adding insult to injury, I mean?v  F You could at least give me credit for being one of a very few with the- brass cajones(sp?) to stand up and speak out.m  K > > The negativism is the effect, not the cause. Both positive and negative K > > tend to be self propagating. Unfortunately, negativity is more prolifice, > > than positivity (if that's even a word). > I >         But you're not some mindless automaton (I'm guessing here) that - > produces reaction A when given stimulus B.    H I am again reminded of the story of the old man who sat shivering before@ the stove, insisting, "Give me heat! *THEN* I'll add the wood!".H Likewise, Compaq seems to be expecting the reaction *BEFORE* introducing
 the stimulus.   F Then again, the whole reason why we're having this conversation in theA first place is becuase Digital and later Compaq *DID* introduce a%G stimulus (series of stimuli, actually) and we are now (still) observing  the reaction(s).   > You, of your own free will,UM > have taken it upon yourself to consider ObL's tactics against Compaq to getaP > them to do your bidding.  Well, it's worked once, right?  (It did work, didn't > it?).d  D The point is that extreme viewpoints exist because in extreme cases,F nothing short of extremism brings a response, even if that response isH not the one desired. That's why have capital punishment, by the way - toF deter capital crime, the reasoning is "an eye for an eye, a life for aH life". An extreme response to an extreme action. Then again, that's alsoA why there's terrorism in the world. When, "I said, '*STOP IT*!!'"iH doesn't work, someone blows up himself and a bus full of innocent peopleH to try and drive the point home.  Rarely effective, and usually produces the opposite effect.  H So, I'll ask again: how *DO* we get Compaq to stop killing VMS and start% bringing it back to where it belongs?   H ...and remember, we're looking for decisive, positive actions that bring% tangible, decisive, positive results.G  @ > > The bottom line is, it's all in the Q's hands at this point. > P >         Nonsense - the market is far too complex than that.  OpenVMS is simplyN > and Operating System.  It does nothing but provide a stable secure frameworkN > to run APPLICATIONS.  At the OpenVMS hey-days's there was a good third-party> > market.  This needs to be rebuilt.  Compaq can't build this,  ) Actually, Compaq is the only one who can:r   o ISV / OEM / VAR incentives  / o End-user price breaks and unprecedented deals   F Remember, VMS has lost a *LOT* of ground, so much so that it may never) recover even a tenth of what it once had.,  C ...but that darned old horse *INSISTS* on staying in *FRONT* of the H cart! ...that damned stove won't give so much as a calorie of heat until/ someone puts some wood in it and starts a fire.g  A ISVs won't develop for no market, without incentives. The market,cG however, won't exist without the app.'s. Chicken-and-egg, Catch-22, ...hG call it what you will, it's still a stalemate ... and *ONLY* Compaq cane	 break it.r   Prove me wrong.n   > only customersO > can by creating demand.  No demand, no product, no reason to port to OpenVMS.a  H So how do we create demand for a product that customers cannot afford inH a market the vendor doesn't want to be involved with in the first place?  M >         Linux didn't get popular because it's Unix.  It got popular because O > of increasing numbers of useful applications (Gimp, StarOffice, Apache, ...).h  E The app.'s didn't really start to appear until disenchantment with M$eC grew to a "threshold" point. ...but that's another thread entirely.)" Let's not go there just now. 'Kay?  O > Sure it's free - but free isn't worth anything if it's not got the ability to  > run your business.  H Koffice V1.1 is the first to pose a credible challenge to M$ Office, and% it's getting better as you read this.t  J > > One course - market expansion beyond the "high-end" niches, aggressiveF > > marketing, price reductions, incentives, etc. - leads to increased) > > profits and prosperity and longevity.0 > K >         You can see in the PC market how this market expansion, agressivesH > marketing, price reductions, incentives has created increased profits,L > prosperity, and longevity - despite the problems suffered by Compaq, Dell, > Gateway, HP.  G You're talking extremes here. "PCs" have saturated a global market. VMS H never even came close to anything that could even remotely be consideredF "saturation", or have we forgotten System/3, System/3x, PICK, Basic-4,+ IRIS, Xenix, DG/AOS, IBM DOS, and the like?v  J >         You have to remeber that businesses do not by an O/S first, thenM > decide what applications are available to run on it.  They buy applicationskL > or solutions, and then maybe dicker about which selection of capable O/S's > to place where.n   We've covered that already.l  E > > Another course - the status quo - led us to where we stand today.  > >n' > > The choice is entirely up to the Q.s > >nI > > ...just don't expect us to stand idly, silently by while our jobs andsI > > careers evaporate and our systems get sold for scrap and are replaced  > > with BillyBoxes. > J >         Actually, I hope you don't stand idly.  However, standing aroundJ > and moaning about how Compaq isn't doing something to save your personal > ass isn't productive.     Never expected that, never will.  D Compaq kicking my ass and telling me, "go away, complainer, we don't need you!"?0  @ Never expected that, never will. Never tolerated it, never will.  & > Sell an OpenVMS server to a client.   - HOW, DAMNIT, HOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????>  A I can hear them now, "...but gee, David, you want to sell us thisaE machine with a discontinued processor which has no viable replacementaE currently shipping in bulk and which runs an extremely expensive o.s.rC that the vendor won't even advertise and which has no useful app.'suE anymore, when for one tenth (or less) that same price we can get thisnE current machine with a processor that is at least still in productioncE for the foreseeable future, runs an (almost) "freebie" o.s. that gets A written up in the trade rags almost weekly and has tons of app.'st$ available. How do you justify this?"   Your input, please?    > Charge the clienthM > to maintain it on a retainer basis (almost free money).  Repeat until rich.o   Is this late night TV now?  ? Seriously, the Cerners and Sunquests of the world are the greateG exception these days, rather than the rule. I think "rich" is more thant a little optimistic.  I > You know the product, you can make it work, you can make it successful.h  H ...but not alone. I *MUST* have Compaq's co-operation and, to date, thatC has not been forthcoming, and nothing I can do seems to produce any  tangible results.g  N >         I learned this a LONG time ago, but you and only you are responsibleK > for your "job".  When times are hard, a company will lay your butt off ato > the stroke of a pen.  A Tell me 'bout it. I've been laid off two years running. Hoping iti doesn't become three.,  H > > (Sorry if the URL wrapped.) AOL/TW is not afraid to piss off EmperorJ > > William I. Now, the Q can take an aggressive stance as well. Imagine aH > > strategic alliance with AOL/TW to build/sell Linux desktops with AOLJ > > pre-loaded! Who knows? the Fall of Microsoft might even make the Walls7 > > of Jericho look like a vase falling off the mantle.  > F >         Yeah, Compaq didn't worry too much about pissing of Gates by > dropping WNT on Alpha   F The story we got at the time was that it was M$'s idea, not the "Q"'s.C We may have been misinformed, I suppose. Can you substantiate this?e  2 > (which they COMPLETED the W2K port, but were not: > allowed to release it until the Intel version was done).  0 Well, ... no, on second thought, leave it lay...  ) >         Or selling Linux-ready servers.e  ? Technically, with few exceptions, most any Alpha or Proliant is E "Linux-ready", since Linux places no (or very few) special demands one
 the hardware.o  C > > ...and by the way: the Q had better do something before *I* do!tH > > ...unless they want to compete with *ME* for Linux desktops with AOLL > > pre-loaded! This just could be the chance of a lifetime for someone like > > me.i > I >         Go for it.  Why wait?  Really!  If it's a chance of a lifetime,lK > take it and don't look back.  Compaq is not in the business of, the stockhP > holders do not hold the Board accountable for, the stock price is not impactedK > by, and the 5-year strategy of Compaq is NOT dependent upon whether David G > Dachtera has an OpenVMS-related job or not.  Or David Cathey, either.a  @ I hardly think I am unique, however. Neither are you in the same? respect. I believe it would be more accurate to say that we aretF representative of the syndrome than to say that we are the rare cases.D One need only scan the archives of comp.os.vms to see this for one's self.i   -- , David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemsp http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 03:22:02 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> D Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!' Message-ID: <3C4E2D69.AF1220B7@fsi.net>    "David L. Cathey" wrote: > [snip]4 >         So let's evaluate how that strategy works: > * > 1) You feel the VMS market is shrinking.  2 Woah, thar! Seems to me you skipped a few steps...  F   0a) Digital fails to respond to changes in the market and challenges+       from GUI desktops and server systems.2(   0b) VMS's market share begins to slip.D   0c) Alpha is introduced, and draws a favorable response initially,(       partially due to support for W/NT.1   0d) Digital starts pushing W/NT-Alpha over VMS.hF   0e) VMS market share begins to "plummet". Aging systems get replaced.       with Alpha/NT or Novell and/or W/NT-x86.  * > 1) You feel the VMS market is shrinking.<   1a) You express your concerns to Digital and later Compaq.       Both fail to respond. 6 > 2) You take action which accelerates this shrinkage.*      (following Compaq's lead, of course).G > 3) OpenVMS goes from being a profit center of Compaq to losing money. -   3a) Compaq fails to take corrective action.pE   3b) Criticism in public fora mounts; Compaq still fails to respond.f > 4) Gartner smiles with glee #      ...as does Sun, M$ and others.s7 > 5) Folks here get really happy about the situation...nN > 6) Compaq notices and magically reverses years of reduction in market share.  B You're talking futures now, but yes - that is the only way to turnB things around. Compaq must act. Failing that, expecting critics to8 magically fall silent is neither logical nor reasonable.  O >         My question, is how does one get from #5 to #6.  Jobs lost are likely/K > lost.  What magic bullet creates corporate demand for an Operating Systemo# > without regard for applications? f  = Compaq is "Mr. Scaramonga(sp?)", The Man With the Golden Gun.e  H Compaq and Compaq *ALONE* have the power to "stem the tide". Nothing anyG VAR, ISV or OEM, or collection of same, can do will have a sufficientlyi
 major impact.o  ) > What "marketing" program will make your K > boss giddy as a school girl and buy $100,000 or $500,000 or $1,000,000 ofn > OpenVMS goodies?  G Getting 10, 50 or 100 machines respectively, fully outfitted with o.s.,aF warranty and three years of platinum-level support. Third-party app.'s* are, of course, another question entirely.  5 >         The problem is there isn't a magic bullet.    F Well, yeah, there is. The hard part is getting "the Q" to cock the gun and fire it!   > There is no "where's theN > beef" advertizing campaign that works in this industry.  They're not sellingO > fast food.  They're selling a solution (of which OpenVMS is only a part) that  > has to work.    C Even Herman Woodchuck getting on cable TV, staring blankly into the E camera and saying, "Hi! I'm Herman Woodchuck. Please buy my product."-8 would be more than we've seen from VMS in recent memory.  D Never mind quality for now. Let's get the quantity greater than zeroG first, since that seems to be the major battle. We'll deal with qualityi. when we can afford to quibble over such triva.  ? > I've been in sales cycles like this, and they can take monthspP > to years of work and negotiation.  And then you still lose out.  It's not just6 > a marketing problem.  Sometimes it's very political.  E Is that a veiled way of saying that Billy's Mafia are more formidablea than we may imagine?  L >         Compaq has fought back from the downward spiral of OpenVMS revenueM > once.  It's not going to improve matters making them have to do it all over  > again.  B ...but the job's not even half done yet. Ya gotta finish something, before you can think about doing it "again".  K > > > Before you bitch at Compaq's marketing of OpenVMS, take a good, long,tG > > > honest look at your own marketing of OpenVMS, too.  Remember that  > >  word-of-mouthL > > > is often some of the strongest and most effective marketing tool, even
 > > today.  H We are not about to repeat Compaq's mistake of making promises we cannot keep.s  M > > I certainly hope so, because that will increase the leverage on Compaq of  > > what goes on here. > C >         Actually, it can only undermine what leverage Compaq has.o  H How so? Compaq is the vendor of OVMS. What more "leverage" do they need?D (Hint: We spoke about re-evaluating perspectives at another point in@ this thread. Compaq could triple to dectuple their "leverage" byC adjusting their approach to one more suitable to a vendor trying too revive a product.)  O > > Yadda, yadda, yadda.  Sarcasm is apparently lost on you:  my point was thatrL > > it may be easy to tell other people how they *should* act, but it's alsoO > > fairly pointless, since they define their own motives and means, thank you.i > L >         But hopefully I can at least make one or two stop and think.  It'sN > the "cutting of your nose to spite your face" concept.  The Hobbyist ProgramC > provides an excellent opportunity here - port your favorite app. s  F Can't - it's illegal and against the hobbyist license terms, remember?  
 > Remember" > that often the apps draw demand.  @ Please take every opportunity to remind Compaq of that, O.k.? We1 desperately need to motivate ISVs, VARs and OEMs.n  L >         The Hobbyist license is perfect for anyone to port a cool Unix app > to OpenVMS.   & For profit? That's illegal, is it not?  H Yeah - I *KNOW* about freeware. Key customer sites have rules against it though..   -- a David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 00:19:29 GMTi2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)1 Subject: Re: Making bootable images from VMS disk 1 Message-ID: <lkn38.334$PZ4.7271@news.cpqcorp.net>   c In article <3C496EE4.A0912804@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes: ; :Backup (and other security features) are one of the really ; :strong parts of VMS, so of course there is a way to backupy :the system disk :-) :  :Normaly you could just do a :@ :(firstdisk: is teh current (booted) system disk and seconddisk: :is the target for the backup) :h :$ MOUNT/FORAIGN seconddisk:> :$ BACKUP/IMAGE/IGNORE=INTERLOCK/VERIFY firstdisk: seconddisk: :59 :That should produce a bootable copy of your system disk.  :e= :Make sure you don't have anything else running on the systemv; :during the copy.  You will get warnings tat some files aren? :"open for write", but the "/IGNORE=INTERLOCK" will try to copyt> :them anyway. These files will only be some log files, so it's@ :normaly no problem. Anyway, take a lock at what the VERIFY pass
 :tels you.  C   I'd use VMSKITBLD (on OpenVMS VAX) or AXPVMS$PCSI_INSTALL.COM (ond4   OpenVMS Alpha V6.1 and later), but that's just me.  D :And, of course, Compaq tels you to backup the system disk off-line.  D   Correct -- that's the way to get a reliable BACKUP with consistentG   comments.  If you don't care about the consistency of the files that  H   are open for write when you make your copy, have at -- you'll probably2   even get lucky, and the copy will probably work.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 00:07:24 -0500n1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>o Subject: OT: HandHeld IPAQ2 Message-ID: <3C4E450C.180075F7@firstdbasource.com>  F Has anyone here used the handheld IPAQ with a standard PCMCIA ethernetG (CAT5) card (not the air-card).  I have a site with a very high EMF/RFIw9 factor and I need them to use the iPAQ on a loading dock.c   1)  download web formm7 2)  disconnect - walk around checking items on the forma 3)  reconnect  - upload form.e   --     Regards,   Michael Austin7 First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.comn President/Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:56:14 -0500 9 From: "Julien Rossignol" <julien.rossignol@cse-cst.gc.ca>u' Subject: port from VAX to APLHA problemt2 Message-ID: <1011725796.117354@news.drenet.dnd.ca>  C I am in the process of porting pl/1 code from VAX to ALPHA and I amoL experiencing some difficulties.  The compilation generated an executable butK when I run the executable the program crashes.  Here is the error message Ir am getting:   # %PLI-F-ERROR, PL/I ERROR condition.!; -SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=04, virtualf: address=0000000000054419, PC=00000000000A6F00, PS=0000001B/ %TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump followscJ   image    module    routine             line      rel PC           abs PC-  DPLI$RTLSHR                                0.  0000000000064A8000000000000B6A80-  DPLI$RTLSHR                                0   0000000000050D9800000000000A2D98-  DPLI$RTLSHR                                0   0000000000050C8000000000000A2C80-  DPLI$RTLSHR                                0   00000000000680B800000000000BA0B8= ----- above condition handler called with exception 0000000C:k; %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=04, virtual : address=0000000000054419, PC=00000000000A6F00, PS=0000001B ----- end of exception message;                                                           0e  FFFFFFFF80087C3CFFFFFFFF80087C3C-  DPLI$RTLSHR                                0o  0000000000054F0000000000000A6F00-  DPLI$RTLSHR                                0i  000000000004E84400000000000A0844-  DPLI$RTLSHR                                0h  000000000005852C00000000000AA52C-  DPLI$RTLSHR                                0e  00000000000577A800000000000A97A86  TEST                                                0  000000000002067000000000000306706  TEST                                                0  00000000000200F000000000000300F0;                                                           0   FFFFFFFF83D9F3F4FFFFFFFF83D9F3F4  ' The code I am running is the following:    TEST: PROCEDURE OPTIONS(MAIN);# DCL STRING    CHAR (16384) VARYING;d! DCL RULES      BIT (576) ALIGNED;t, DCL LEN           FIXED BIN (31,0) INIT (0);  , STRING = '0123456789ABCDEF0123456789ABCDEF'; LEN = LENGTH(STRING);p  # PUT SKIP EDIT ('LEN:',LEN)(A,F(6)); ( PUT SKIP EDIT (SUBSTR(STRING,1,LEN))(A);  I GET STRING (SUBSTR(STRING,1,LEN)) EDIT (SUBSTR(RULES,1,LEN*4)) (B4(LEN));s	 END TEST;e    The compile and link command is:   PLI /nowar/noop/nodebug test	 link testo  J When this segment of code is compiled and ran under ALPHA it generates theG above error message but runs and terminate without any errors on a VAX.o  J By playing around with this code, I discovered that when I keep the STRINGF variable contents under 32 characters the code compiles and runs fine.E Whenever STRING contains more than 31 characters the program crashes.,  + Any comments or ideas would be appreciated.i   Julien   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 14:32:58 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e+ Subject: Re: port from VAX to APLHA problemi3 Message-ID: <62gbG7ACzRzC@eisner.encompasserve.org>   n In article <1011725796.117354@news.drenet.dnd.ca>, "Julien Rossignol" <julien.rossignol@cse-cst.gc.ca> writes:E > I am in the process of porting pl/1 code from VAX to ALPHA and I am N > experiencing some difficulties.  The compilation generated an executable butM > when I run the executable the program crashes.  Here is the error message I 
 > am getting:a > % > %PLI-F-ERROR, PL/I ERROR condition.O= > -SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=04, virtual   D Many years ago on Alpha, an incompatible change was made to the PL/I: runtime library without changing the image identification.  C Are you sure your system is running the version of PLIRTL that camee7 with the compiler ?  It is a separate installation kit.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:11:48 -0500n' From: Glenn Everhart <Everhart@gce.com>v Subject: Re hobbyist license' Message-ID: <3C4DC784.455CABA9@gce.com>B  B The hobbyist licenses do NOT make it illegal to take your favoriteJ app and port it to VMS. This is perfectly legal, just so you aren't making money off it.   I Reasonable enough: if you want to do something for money, pay for the VMSkI licenses. If you want to do it for free, it helps the platform and Compaq # lets you get the licenses for free.v  K Compaq is not an eleemosynary institution after all. Let's be reasonable...D/ the hobby program seems mighty darn good to me.    Glenn Everhart   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:24:51 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>k Subject: Re hobbyist license; Message-ID: <01KDDWTGAC748ZI8TR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>h  D > The hobbyist licenses do NOT make it illegal to take your favoriteL > app and port it to VMS. This is perfectly legal, just so you aren't making > money off it.   H True.  This was suggested, however, as a method of increasing available G apps on VMS as a means of increasing VMS sales.  OK, perhaps VMS sales .F would go up if more FREE applications were available, but a) not much D and b) I don't think that was the point which was trying to be made.  K > Reasonable enough: if you want to do something for money, pay for the VMSsK > licenses. If you want to do it for free, it helps the platform and Compaq % > lets you get the licenses for free.t   Right.  M > Compaq is not an eleemosynary institution after all. Let's be reasonable....1 > the hobby program seems mighty darn good to me.   F Agreed.  Just come up with some sort of start-up license to avoid the H ridiculous scenario of a company having license costs higher than their E starting capital (possible a) these days and b) with used, cheap but e@ more than good-enough hardware) and things will be perfect.  :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 14:39:40 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)   Subject: Re: Re hobbyist license3 Message-ID: <7vchRafMt9Y1@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  w In article <01KDDWTGAC748ZI8TR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes: E >> The hobbyist licenses do NOT make it illegal to take your favoritesM >> app and port it to VMS. This is perfectly legal, just so you aren't making  >> money off it.   > J > True.  This was suggested, however, as a method of increasing available I > apps on VMS as a means of increasing VMS sales.  OK, perhaps VMS sales sH > would go up if more FREE applications were available, but a) not much   H If the free software you wrote/ported made it easier to write/port otherH software it would certainly have a good effect.  This is especially trueG in light of all the comments we read in this newsgroup about "why isn't 4 there an up-to-date version of <unix-utility-name>".  H > Agreed.  Just come up with some sort of start-up license to avoid the J > ridiculous scenario of a company having license costs higher than their G > starting capital (possible a) these days and b) with used, cheap but dB > more than good-enough hardware) and things will be perfect.  :-)  F Startup capital of less that $995 (CSA startup cost) does not make for! a very viable company these days.k   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 03:43:57 GMTl1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>   Subject: Re: Re hobbyist license' Message-ID: <3C4E328E.31E2E9AA@fsi.net>t   Glenn Everhart wrote:s > D > The hobbyist licenses do NOT make it illegal to take your favoriteL > app and port it to VMS. This is perfectly legal, just so you aren't making > money off it.a > K > Reasonable enough: if you want to do something for money, pay for the VMSe > licenses.   D ...which brings us bakc to the whole affordability issue, yet again.  A > If you want to do it for free, it helps the platform and Compaq.% > lets you get the licenses for free.o > M > Compaq is not an eleemosynary institution after all. Let's be reasonable...e1 > the hobby program seems mighty darn good to me.a  F To me as well - for hobbyists. For ISVs, well, ... we're left wanting, to say less than the least.    -- - David J. Dachtera0 dba DJE SystemsD http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/f   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 04:54:14 GMT + From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com>d1 Subject: Re: Samba frustrations on reboot... fix!m+ Message-ID: <3C4E3902.5D3EE053@ins-msi.com>'   Jeff Campbell wrote: > "John E. Malmberg" wrote:u > > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > N > > > OK, I've got a definite hate/hate relationship going on here with Samba.O > > > I've got it installed on the DEC 3000/300LX that acts as a fileserver form > > > my hobbyist cluster. > > > P > > > Every time the system has to be rebooted I've got to run the Samba installP > > > script.  Looking through INSTALL.COM, I can't see anything it's doing thatJ > > > @SYS$STARTUP:SAMBA_STARTUP doesn't do, but the fact remains it's theN > > > *only* way I've found to get Samba to work.  If I don't do this, I can'tN > > > access the machine from Windoz (not a big loss, but I do have one laptopP > > > here that runs it for a couple legacy apps and it's nice to be able to put' > > > files on my common scratch disk).e > > C > > First of all, what version of SAMBA for VMS is being used here?  > >e > > If it is the 2.0.3 BETA: > >eN > > It appears from inspecting INSTALL.COM that it sets up system wide logicalP > > names that are needed for SAMBA-VMS.  It also installs a CRTL wrapper shared
 > > image. > >sA > > The SAMBA_STARTUP.COM seems to just startup the NMBD process.i >oC > As you note above it defines logical names, including SAMBA_ROOT.a > @ > I had written earlier in another reply that I had had to add aM > $ TCPIP ENAB SERV SMBD line at the bottom of SYS$STARTUP:SAMBA_STARTUP.COM.hK > I think I know why now. I happened to catch an error message during TCPIP.D > startup at boot time saying that the SMBD service was not started. >  > Looking at the TCPIP service:  > 	 > $ tcpip" > TCPIP> show serv smbd /fulls >  > Service: SMBDr/ >                            State:     Enabled I > Port:              139     Protocol:  TCP             Address:  0.0.0.0tF > Inactivity:          5     User_name: SYSTEM          Process:  SMBDE > Limit:             100     Active:      1             Peak:       2  > G > File:         SAMBA_ROOT:[BIN]SMBD_STARTUP.COM     <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  > Flags:        Listen >  > Socket Opts:  Rcheck Scheck 2 >  Receive:            0     Send:               0 > H > Log Opts:     Acpt Actv Dactv Conn Error Exit Logi Logo Mdfy Rjct TimO > AddrG >  File:        SAMBA_ROOT:[VAR]SMBD_STARTUP.LOG     <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<  > 
 > Security >  Reject msg:  not defineda >  Accept host: 0.0.0.0a >  Accept netw: 0.0.0.0 
 > TCPIP> exitk > H > I think TCPIP is trying to open one or both of the above files but the@ > logical device is not yet defined. So it bombs out. Later whenE > SYS$STARTUP:SAMBA_STARTUP.COM executes the ENAB SERV command line Il > added it starts. > G > In my SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM, I added $@SYS$STARTUP:SAMBA_STARTUP near theeI > bottom of the file, after the $@SYS$STARTUP:TCPIP$STARTUP line. So SMBDtH > service is always going to fail to start. I haven't tried changing theK > order in which the two startup command files are executed as I expect the > > NMBD process requires TCP sockets to start. Chicken and egg. > F > I don't know that Zane isn't seeing another problem but I'll bet hisA > rerunning the INSTALL procedure is masking the SMBD service not.( > automatically starting up as intended. > > 	 > > -Johnh > > wb8tyw@qsl.network >  > Jeff Campbelli > n8wxs@arrl.net  D I think I have the solution to the above observed problem. The fix I0 suggested above only addresses half the problem.  C The real 'problem' is in SAMBA_ROOT:[BIN]SMBD_SETUP_TCPIP.COM. ThiseA file is normally executed only once, during installation. This iseB because the command UCX SET CONFIGURATION ENABLE SERVICE SMBD only@ needs to be issued once. Once this command is executed, the SMBDB service will be automatically started when TCPIP is started during5 a boot. We know this automatic startup does not work.o  ? A UCX ENABLE SERVICE SMBD command is also executed in the setuphD command file. This is why Zane's re-running INSTALL.COM fixed it forD him. It calls the setup file which re-issues both commands each time
 he ran it.  A I think SMBD_SETUP_TCPIP.COM needs to have these two lines eithere commented out or removed:y  .    $ UCX SET CONFIGURATION ENABLE SERVICE SMBD    $ UCX ENABLE SERVICE SMBD  B Removing the first will solve the automatic startup problem by not, trying to do that. ("Doctor, Doctor..."  8-)  B The second line should be moved to SYS$SYSTARTUP:SAMBA_STARTUP.COM? as I suggested above, which will allow SMBD to be started aftero TCPIP is up.  G I have modified my copies of SAMBA_STARTUP.COM by adding the following:t      ...    $! Start NMBD    $!.<    $! First, check to see if service smbd is known to tcpip.    $    $ defi/user sys$output nl:o    $ defi/user sys$error  nl:l    $    $ tcpip show service smbd    $    $ if .not. $statuse	    $ thene*    $	@samba_root:[bin]smbd_setup_tcpip.com
    $ endif    $!l    $ run/detached -     ...   And the last line:      $ tcpip enable service smbd  F SAMBA now restarts across boots, including ones after I've deleted and/ recreated TCPIP's database files (I hate BIND).i  
 Jeff Campbellb n8wxs@arrl.net   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 04:46:48 GMT/- From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>-1 Subject: Re: Samba frustrations on reboot... fix!i* Message-ID: <3C4E448A.7000900@qsl.network>  I I usually define the rooted logical names in the SYLOGICALS.COM phase of n1 the boot.  Of course that just hides the problem.C  F When putting things in the system startup with multiple dependencies,   all sorts of problems can occur.  H The dissapearing batch jobs on reboot is another such problem.  In this I case the batch job starts running before the resources that it uses have s% been set up, like a database service.b  G With SAMBA, the issue is that the logical names, and images need to be ME installed before the TCP/IP program is started, but the NMBD process d4 must be started after the TCP/IP program is started.  E So there are some things to consider on getting this right.  It also uI looks like a future version of SAMBA would need to have the NMBD process e6 started as a TCPIP service, so that might simplify it.  I On many systems the network protocol stacks must be started really early t5 in the boot process because so much may depend on it.e   -Johna wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyp   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:04:06 +0100 (MET)t9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>p$ Subject: setting the record straight; Message-ID: <01KDDSVPL5728ZI8TR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   H > But hopefully I can at least make one or two stop and think.  It's the5 > "cutting of your nose to spite your face" concept. y  H I too think that, despite the disappointment we've had from the vendors F of VMS---which has been redressed in some specific cases, but the BIG G PICTURE hasn't been redressed---, while criticism is necessary, it has q to be CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.-  E Either one cares about VMS or not.  If so, one wants it to survive.  nF Thus, a strategy which will punish Compaq via reducing VMS sales if itI doesn't get its act together is contraproductive---one shouldn't cut off hF one's nose to spite one's face, become one's worst enemy etc.  If one I doesn't care about VMS, one shouldn't be taking any steps for or against eE it---unless one is a competitor (or working for one) and thus out to r destroy it.v  I > The Hobbyist Program provides an excellent opportunity here - port your ; > favorite app.  Remember that often the apps draw demand. w  . The problem with this is that it is not legal.  6 Actually, the license situation with VMS is not bad.    E For folks who really need the strengths of VMS, the license costs are A affordable, and a small part of the TCO.  I doubt there are many -H commercial folks who dropped VMS because of the license costs (academia E is another matter); most dropped it because the vendor of VMS at the   time encouraged them to.  F Let me mention a specific example.  In 1997, I bought a VMS machine.  F About a year or so before, I was at the CeBit in Hanover, the world's F largest computer fair.  Digital had a big stand in the main building,  rivaling IBM's.   D While I was browsing around, a Digital salesman asked me what I was H interested in, and I said buying a VMS workstation.  He explicitly told I me that VMS was not being developed anymore.  When I let him know that I cH knew that VMS was supported on the machines at the stand, he said "this H is the high end, it is not VMS".  Etc etc.  Now, I knew better than the @ salesman, and eventually bought the VMS machine.  I also got an G "official" apology from DEC after mentioning this story in comp.os.vms.   D But for every person like me, there are 100 or 1000 who BELIEVE the I salesmen.  Of course, they don't complain, so of course they never get a vE correction (much less an apology for distributing wrong information).   . A LOT of the folks here have experienced this.  F The hobbyist license is fine for hobbyists (it used to be only VAX and exclude the latest version).    ? What about developers?  Well, there is the programme for folks 0F developing APPLICATIONS TO BE SOLD TO OTHER PEOPLE (all together now, C repeat that 50 times).  There are license costs here, but they are 0F small, and not really a significant factor if one is actually writing < software commercially, at least if the software is any good.  @ BUT THERE IS A GAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  F The gap is DEVELOPING an application FOR ONE'S OWN USE (as opposed to H selling it to someone else), or using VMS and things which come with it   for not-yet-profitable ventures.  C Actually, the two cases are the same---I am using VMS resources to FI develop something which I hope will make money FOR ME DIRECTLY (i.e. not  E by selling SOFTWARE I DEVELOP to someone else) in the future.  To go TH back to my favourite example:  The only way I can legally write a novel I on my VMS system with EDT and sell it to a publisher is if I have a full IF commercial license for this system.  (If this is not the case, please I cite chapter and verse!)  It is irrelevant if I write the novel with EDT NG (second example above) or develop a Fortran programme which writes the e* novel automatically (first example above).  A (OK, I could develop the application to write the novel with the  H pretense of selling it, set up a straw man company (chaired by, say, my D wife) to buy it and then discontinue distribution---but this is the H fancy legal footwork a transparent license policy is supposed to avoid.)  I As far as I understand it, as long as one is not DEVELOPING APPLICATIONS d@ TO BE SOLD, one MUST have a full commercial license.  IF one is E developing applications to be sold, then one cannot use the hobbyist L license.  G One cannot use the hobbyist license and then retroactively change to a zD commercial application once the project starts making money etc etc.  F Back in the old days, hardware was expensive, software was expensive, A and companies had a lot of other costs.  Thus, license costs for IE start-up companies were probably not much of an issue.  The world is x different today.  > Where Compaq needs to fill the gap is offer a license for the I DEVELOPMENT of commercial applications which is cheap enough to fit into SE the budget of someone developing some commercial application but not a sure whether it will take off.  H I like the idea of it being free until the company makes a profit, then E it is X% of the profit (as long as this is cheaper than a commercial h7 license) or whatever.  But it could also be a flat fee.i  I Of course, in many cases there is no way to tell.  A text file, or a TeX  E file, or a LaTeX file, or a PostScript file or whatever I send to my lF publisher has no trace that it was written with EDT.  If I write some I sort of PORTABLE application and distribute the source code, there is no sH way to tell it was written on a VMS system---perhaps I wrote it down by E hand, with no computer at all.  And so on.  Thus, in practice, in at eI least some (probably a minority) of the cases, Compaq can't tell anyway, sF so realistically they should explicitly sanction the hobbyist license > here, or offer something someone in such a situation could by.  F For VMS-specific applications, there is at the moment no possibility, 2 not even an illegal-but-in-practice-invisible one.  F The point is, Compaq have nothing to lose by this, since it would not I detract from the licenses which already exist---neither for existing nor m0 for new customers.  But they have a lot to gain.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jan 2002 17:24:29 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)( Subject: Re: setting the record straight< Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0201221724.af45578@posting.google.com>  | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KDDSVPL5728ZI8TR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...J > > But hopefully I can at least make one or two stop and think.  It's the7 > > "cutting of your nose to spite your face" concept.   > J > I too think that, despite the disappointment we've had from the vendors H > of VMS---which has been redressed in some specific cases, but the BIG I > PICTURE hasn't been redressed---, while criticism is necessary, it has b > to be CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.t > G > Either one cares about VMS or not.  If so, one wants it to survive.  hH > Thus, a strategy which will punish Compaq via reducing VMS sales if itK > doesn't get its act together is contraproductive---one shouldn't cut off oH > one's nose to spite one's face, become one's worst enemy etc.  If one K > doesn't care about VMS, one shouldn't be taking any steps for or against pG > it---unless one is a competitor (or working for one) and thus out to D
 > destroy it.@  F I agree. I don't see any sense in trying to reduce VMS sales. The lessF VMS that's out there, the easier it will be to kill off. Less VMS alsoF means it can be wiped out more quickly simply because there is less toC wipe out. And less VMS means the total profits from VMS become less E impressive and thus depriving us of our point that VMS is profitable.wE (Yeah, you could say profit per system or whatever, but a small total  still makes it look worse.)r  E In fact, since Compaq seems to want abandon VMS anyway, a strategy to = reduce their VMS sales is actually helping them achieve theiri/ objective! So why all the arguing with them?(!)e  3 If you want more trees, you don't set them on fire.n   [licensing discussion omitted]   Discalimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman  afeldman;gfigroup.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:31:10 -0500t% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>o( Subject: Re: setting the record straight, Message-ID: <3C4E2E7D.88DB343B@videotron.ca>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:G > In fact, since Compaq seems to want abandon VMS anyway, a strategy to ? > reduce their VMS sales is actually helping them achieve theirp1 > objective! So why all the arguing with them?(!)s > 5 > If you want more trees, you don't set them on fire.   N Compaq needs the VMS revenus to continue for some time. It takes the VMS loyalM customer base for granted and expects them to blindly continue to pay for VMSv no matter what.   N In 2000, when VMS sales were in negative growth, the option was to kill VMS or$ give it a small boost (renaissance).  M Compaq needs to learn that it must market VMS to keep the revenus and that itaK cannot take VMS customers for granted.  If nobody complained about Compaq'sgL handling of VMS, Compaq would just continue to cut down the trees one by one& until the forest was completely gone.   K But with complaints, Gorham and Marcello *can* go to Marcello and warn themnN about the potential for a firest fire that would  destroy the forest much moreI quickly than Compaq had anticipated, depriving Compaq from the revenus it.L needs to subsidize it PC stuff. That should be enough to get Compaq to agree to some additional marketing.d  J If Neither Gorham nor Marcello have the guts to talk to whomever pulls theM strings at Compaq, then the other solution is to start a forest fire and once K it is bright enough, Capellas will see it and then will be forced to act toa< protect the remaining forest to preserve the needed revenus.K That is essentially what happened in 2000 with the short lived renaissance.H  K Capellas needs to be reminded that the fire is still smoldering and that itg! still can't take VMS for granted.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:07:42 GMT " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>0 Subject: Re: show system reports wrong NODE NAME/ Message-ID: <ywk38.538$A3.3906@typhoon.bart.nl>t   7.53 -> 7221  5 John Polcari <JPolcari@Mediaone.net> wrote in messageT7 news:lL338.22878$Ln2.5941500@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...e > Pat, >l6 > If you are cloning one box from another, you have toG > make sure you change the node name and node address in modparams.dat;  which G > is located in the sys$system:modparams.dat on your system disk. Aftere5 > changing the name and address in modparams.dat, runsK > @sys$update:autogen savparams setparams nofeedback, reboot the system ande > you should be all set. >03 > To figure out the number address, use the formulaL >M > area*1024+number > 
 > example: >  > 7.53 >t > 7*1024+53 =1084B >M	 > Cheers,  > John >C > D > "pat saunders" <pat.saunders@sis.securicor.co.uk> wrote in message8 > news:bc0e3bd8.0201101306.1599270@posting.google.com... > > hi,lI > >   When I log onto a vax box, it reports the correct NODE-NAME as wellrG > > as when I run net$configure AND show exec status etc but when I runoG > > the command SHOW SYSTEM it reports the wrong NODE-NAME, We recentlydB > > restored from another vax box so are wondering how to fix this > > problem, > > thanks,a > > patr >. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 13:45:33 -0500 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>  Subject: Re: Time Sync Software 2 Message-ID: <L7NNPLyYfRGN2v2HyH6HfssufPKo@4ax.com>  9 You can use the NTP service within your respective TCP/IP % stacks to keep the time synchronized.    David R. Beatty:  7 On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:39:44 -0600, "La Roche, Michael"B) <mlaroche@allsaintshealthcare.org> wrote:<  M >Does anyone know of a software package that will sync time between 2 OpenVMS L >cluster boxes, IBM AIX RS6000 and Windows NT Servers?  Just want to know if1 >there is anything like this out there somewhere.F >TIA >MikeA >_ >T2 >                        MMM                      3 >                        (O-O)                     o, > o--------------oOOo-( )-oOOo------------o . >{ Michael J. La Roche - Sr. Systems Analyst }4 >{ All Saints Healthcare System, Inc.              }7 >{ 1320 Wisconsin Avenue                              }$; >{ Racine, WI  53403                                      } < >{ V:  262-687-7741                                        }< >{ F:  262-687-5595                                        }1 >{ E:  mlaroche@allsaintshealthcare.org         }t- > o----------------oooO--Oooo---------------o  >e > J >America was discovered by Amerigo Vespucci and was named after him, untilI >people got tired of living in a place called "Vespuccia" and changed its  >name to "America".'D >                -- Mike Harding, "The Armchair Anarchist's Almanac" >n >h >N >L >r >dA >This message, and any attachment, is privileged and confidentialsG >information, and is intended only for the use of the addressee and AlliF >Saints Healthcare. If you are not the intended recipient, immediatelyJ >destroy this message and notify the sender of the error. Please note thatM >any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this messagelD >is prohibited. All Saints Healthcare does not endorse any opinions,M >conclusions or other information contained within this message that does notc >pertain to official business. >D   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jan 2002 18:50:55 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)k Subject: Re: Time Sync Softwareo0 Message-ID: <a2kcaf$nsc$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>   In article <F2D18855B95D6942BD315C5A8F141A0E816AF7@as-exchange-01.allsaintshealthcare.org>, "La Roche, Michael" <mlaroche@allsaintshealthcare.org> writes:M >Does anyone know of a software package that will sync time between 2 OpenVMS L >cluster boxes, IBM AIX RS6000 and Windows NT Servers?  Just want to know if1 >there is anything like this out there somewhere.r  K The time within a VMS cluster may be synced via the cluster software itselflJ (MC SYSMAN HELP CONFIG SET TIME EXAMPLES). Provided that all the computersM have a TCP/IP stack running I would go with NTP or XNTP. With AIX this shouldyG be built-in, for NT there are a number of free and commercial utilitiestJ available. And for VMS I use Multinet that includes NTP and XNTP. I'm sure/ the other IP-stacks for VMS include it as well.f   Regards,    Christoph Gartmannt  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 15:01:52 -0700a4 From: "Michael D. Ober" <mdo.@.wakeassoc.com.nospam> Subject: Re: Time Sync Softwaree1 Message-ID: <kjl38.202$DT5.93363@news.uswest.net>s  K You can download a free NTP client and server for NT4 from MS.  It's calledgD W32Time and is built in to W2000.  For NT4, you can download it fromL http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/technet/prodtechnD ol/winntas/Default.asp.  More information on the basic operation and4 concepts of the Windows Time Service can be found atL http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/default.asp?url=/TechNet/prodtechn1 ol/windows2000serv/maintain/optimize/wintime.asp.d   --
 Mike Ober.    @ "Christoph Gartmann" <gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de> wrote in message* news:a2kcaf$nsc$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de... > In articleL <F2D18855B95D6942BD315C5A8F141A0E816AF7@as-exchange-01.allsaintshealthcare.oC rg>, "La Roche, Michael" <mlaroche@allsaintshealthcare.org> writes:nG > >Does anyone know of a software package that will sync time between 2t OpenVMSrK > >cluster boxes, IBM AIX RS6000 and Windows NT Servers?  Just want to known if3 > >there is anything like this out there somewhere.e >uF > The time within a VMS cluster may be synced via the cluster software itselfL > (MC SYSMAN HELP CONFIG SET TIME EXAMPLES). Provided that all the computersH > have a TCP/IP stack running I would go with NTP or XNTP. With AIX this shouldI > be built-in, for NT there are a number of free and commercial utilitieseL > available. And for VMS I use Multinet that includes NTP and XNTP. I'm sure1 > the other IP-stacks for VMS include it as well.m >p
 > Regards, >    Christoph Gartmanna >tJ > -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+J > | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |J > | Immunbiologie                                                        |J > | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |J > | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |J > +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2002 00:00 CSTu' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)t Subject: Re: TYPE suggestion- Message-ID: <23JAN200200000965@gerg.tamu.edu>   S In article <3C4B8EC7.C66D730A@rdrop.com>, Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> writes...  }"David J. Dachtera" wrote:s }> u }> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  }> >N }> > $ SET TERM/NOWRAP will eliminate the wrapping of lines, and will truncate
 }> > them. }> tI }> Oh, yeah, fer sure - but he wants to be able to display only a certainc2 }> range of bytes in each record. As he put it, "$- }> TYPE/WINDOW=(start_col,end_col) filespec".  }> eK }> Not to be confused with the /WINDOW qualifier of the SEARCH command. HasI  }> a somewhat different meaning. }> oJ }> Actually, now that I think about it, you can (sort of) do what he wants }> with SEARCH/PAGE for "":  }> e }> $ SEARCH filespec ""/PAGE }>  K }> ...and scroll "sideways" with the left/right arrow keys. Not real usefuleJ }> for capturing a subset of the output, of course, which may be more what }> he had in mind. } I }Am I missing something, or is this a no-brainer with a few lines of DCL?t }  }$ OPEN /READ InFile 'P1'i }$ Loop:) }$ READ InFile DataLine /END_OF_FILE=Done = }$ OutLine = F$EXTRACT( 'P2', ( 'P3' - 'P2' + 1 ), DataLine )h }$ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT 'OutLine'  }$ GOTO Loop }$ Done: }$ CLOSE InFilei  D There is also TYPE/PAGE=SAVE which allows you to scroll horizontally$ using the left and right arrow keys.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 00:15:53 GMTh2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)2 Subject: Re: VAX emulator model and serial numbers1 Message-ID: <Zgn38.333$PZ4.7344@news.cpqcorp.net>u  i In article <a29rn7$1ejs$1@news.louisville.edu>, "Calvin Miracle" <cbmira01@athena.louisville.edu> writes:e  ? :Will the new VAX emulators effectively have model designationslD :and serial numbers?  Will this information be available in order to< :apply for the OpenVMS Hobbyist License files from Montagar?     In no particular order...t  C   The OpenVMS serial number referenced by the Hobbyist licensing isS.   the serial number on the sticker on the box.  1   All but a few VAX system lack serial numbers.  S  A   Alpha also tends to lack a hardware serial number but does farenB   better than VAX here, as it provides a way to store and retrieveD   the sticker-based serial number in a console environment variable.C   (This is where the Alpha command SHOW CPU/FULL gets the value...)t  ?   The closest thing to a hardware serial number is the EthernetT?   address.  It is not an exact match for a serial number, and a 4   system may or may not have an Ethernet controller.  D   A VAX emulator is free to return whatever it chooses as its serialF   number -- while the emulator is clearly software, OpenVMS considers I   it to be hardware.  Thus from the perspective of OpenVMS, the emulator  B   looks and works like hardware.  Thus from the perspective of theG   emulator, it is best if the emulator looks very much like an existing G   VAX.  (The less the emulator looks like the target emulated VAX, the y7   more likely it is that software can require changes.)t  D   There are NO checks within OpenVMS that match the hardware to the B   license PAK.  (The platform is deliberately not locked down, as D   various software licenses can permit use of a licensed product on 6   another platform in certain specific circumstances.)  D   The serial number to list for the hobbyist license is the one fromF   the sticker on the box.  It is thus expected that the serial number C   involved is the box that is running running the emulator, or the  *   sticker that is on the VAX or Alpha box.  B   Go get the hobbyist CHARON-VAX emulator package.  For commercialB   use, there is (or will be) a package that permits you to legallyB   move existing OpenVMS VAX product licenses to the new (emulator)   platform.f  E   VAX is non-trivial to emulate -- the SRI engineers thought they hadhF   a good emulation until it was run against the AXE tests; against theE   VAX architecture verification test suite.  (I'd like to get the AXEiG   test suite available for folks working on the emulators, but I don't  H   have the cycles to pursue it right now.)   After much effort, SRI did F   get the emulator to correctly run the VAX architecture tests.  (Bob @   Supnik is undoubtedly quite familiar with the AXE test suite.)  H   I won't get into bus-level emulation, as that gets really interesting.H   The I/O timing itself is not something that could be easily emulated, H   but OpenVMS does tend to be tolerant of odd or unexpected I/O timings.F   As the folks writing the emulators know, getting the VAX instruction6   decoder to work is just part of the effort involved.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:53:40 -0500 * From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>2 Subject: Re: VAX emulator model and serial numbers. Message-ID: <3C4DD154.19552.62C4FB1@localhost>  , On 23 Jan 2002, at 0:15, Hoff Hoffman wrote: >   For commercialD >   use, there is (or will be) a package that permits you to legallyD >   move existing OpenVMS VAX product licenses to the new (emulator)
 >   platform.i  )   Thisis on the Compaq website somewhere.   9   Transferlicenses to CHARON-VAX for VMS are QM-6KQAA-AA r6     (OpenVMS Alpha) and QM-6T7AA-AA (Windows & Linux).  < Transfer licenses to CHARON-VAX for layered products are QM-: 6KRAA-AA (OpenVMS Alpha) and QM-6T8AA-AA (Windows & Linux)  
 --Stan Quaylew! President, Quayle Consulting Inc.S  
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671 1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147b= Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:29:56 -0700w+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>t2 Subject: Re: VAX emulator model and serial numbers' Message-ID: <3C4E2024.9080207@mmaz.com>t   Hoff Hoffman wrote:o  C >  Go get the hobbyist CHARON-VAX emulator package.  For commercialdC >  use, there is (or will be) a package that permits you to legallyeC >  move existing OpenVMS VAX product licenses to the new (emulator)e >  platform. >yF >  VAX is non-trivial to emulate -- the SRI engineers thought they hadG >  a good emulation until it was run against the AXE tests; against the F >  VAX architecture verification test suite.  (I'd like to get the AXEH >  test suite available for folks working on the emulators, but I don't I >  have the cycles to pursue it right now.)   After much effort, SRI did yG >  get the emulator to correctly run the VAX architecture tests.  (Bob fA >  Supnik is undoubtedly quite familiar with the AXE test suite.)  >uI >  I won't get into bus-level emulation, as that gets really interesting.hI >  The I/O timing itself is not something that could be easily emulated, hI >  but OpenVMS does tend to be tolerant of odd or unexpected I/O timings. G >  As the folks writing the emulators know, getting the VAX instructione7 >  decoder to work is just part of the effort involved.e >iE It is worth noting that they provide telnet access to a VAX emulated 4 system from their website at: I http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/index.htm which so far has produced  = rather amazing results when comparing to a real VAX 4000/100:l  
 $ sh cpu/full   i VMS73, a MicroVAX 3600 Series H Multiprocessing is DISABLED. Uniprocessing synchronization image loaded.  i PRIMARY CPU = 00  t CPU 00 is in RUN state/ Current Process: USER02          PID = 0000067Br Capabilities of this CPU:t         PRIMARY QUORUM RUN- Processes which can only execute on this CPU:e         *** None ***  = Additionally, they do provide a mechanism to upload your own s benchmarking tools to test.  s   Barry    --    @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:36:47 -0800h+ From: Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU>m@ Subject: Re: VMS missing features (was how to do deamons on VMS)V Message-ID: <Pine.NXT.4.50.0201221235120.19126-100000@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU>  ' On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, John Sauter wrote:a > Mark Crispin wrote: 7 > > The MIT AI Lab PDP-6 had a full moby (Fabritek), ang= > > unheard-of thing at the time.  I don't know if Stanford'sr> > > PDP-6 ever did; at the time I was there (starting in 1977), > > it only had the original 64K memory box.5 > The original memory for the Stanford PDP-6 was four,3 > 16K memory boxes, model 163s.  An additional box,t4 > a model 162, held 16 words of memory, addressed as > locations 0-15.   H The 162 (a.k.a. fast ACs) was still there in 1977 when I started work atJ SAIL, but the 163s were gone, replaced with this big honking box that held all of 64K.e  
 -- Mark --   http://staff.washington.edu/mrc-F Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 20:48:01 +01008, From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> Subject: Re: Writing COM files& Message-ID: <3C4DC1F1.1DF7A844@gmx.ch>   Larry Kilgallen wrote: >  > >e > > Check out the User's Manuale > >i@ > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/72final/6489/6489pro.html > I > or for the other meaning of COM, try the Connectivity Developer's Guidey > H > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/6539/6539pro.html#dcom_part  N Or read all "DCL minutes of the *.*" in an archived version of this forum. The$ live version purges "expired" posts.   D. -- 0H   ----------------------------------------------------------------------E MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.html E Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670r/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.0  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS ExpertiseH On parle franais Man spricht Deutsch se habla Castellano English spoken   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:07:10 GMTt0 From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>) Subject: WTB:Freeware 4 or 5 CD for sale?i+ Message-ID: <3C4E1ACD.44272EA0@mailbag.com>   C Sorry if  this is off topic, but this seemed the best place to ask.5  F For simplicity, I'd like to have a copy of one of the Freeware CDROMs. Unfortunately, according toeB http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/freeware/index.html it's notC available separate from the full cost media kit. Does anyone have ay spare they'd care to part with?    Thanks,2   William2 -- 4* You better watch out    What you wish for;+ It better be worth it   So much to die for.k-                                 Courtney Lovee   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:43:50 -0500u1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>t- Subject: Re: WTB:Freeware 4 or 5 CD for sale? 2 Message-ID: <3C4E3176.BDAB78E5@firstdbasource.com>   William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > E > Sorry if  this is off topic, but this seemed the best place to ask.  > H > For simplicity, I'd like to have a copy of one of the Freeware CDROMs. > Unfortunately, according tonD > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/freeware/index.html it's notE > available separate from the full cost media kit. Does anyone have a ! > spare they'd care to part with?9 > 	 > Thanks,  > 	 > William  > --, > You better watch out    What you wish for;- > It better be worth it   So much to die for.-/ >                                 Courtney Lovee  C Why not just download what you need from the net?  I don't have thenF freeware CD so I just get what I need from there.  Just as easy.   AndH if you are really wanted a CD, just burn your own.  Not that hard with a highspeed Internet connection. -- d   Regards,  ! Michael Austin  -- AVAILABLE NOW! 7 First DBA Source, Inc. -- http://www.firstdbasource.comr President/Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:42:50 +0100s/ From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>sD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The4 Message-ID: <VA.00000522.4d984434@bluewin.delete.ch>  F In article <slrna4qd1k.se9.stanb@citadel.metropolis.local>, Stan Barr  wrote:4 > On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMT, Geoff McCaughan ! > <geoffm@spam.hormel.com> wrote:  > >nG > >Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well, C > >but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but in-C > >the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of the-( > >UK pronounce it the NZ way as well... > / > Oop 'ere in t'North it rhymes with "gone"....i >: Except for snobs :-)  H I always thought that was the case too, and the one rhyming with "lone" F was from t' Sarth. However someone did a study 2 or 3 years ago which C comes to a different conclusion. Time to put the search engines to s work:-)e   ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerlandi   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:33:06 GMTc0 From: geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff McCaughan")D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The2 Message-ID: <mUk38.1621$Lv.228277@news.xtra.co.nz>  5 Brian Inglis (Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca) wrote: + > [xposts trimmed, alt.english.usage added]  > B > On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMT, geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff > McCaughan") wrote: > ) > >JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote:s > > N > >> Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very close? > >> relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?  > > J > >No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North American > >that is close to crumpets.  >  > Pancakes/hotcakes. t   Nope, also quite different.g  ? > >Then there's pikelets, which are rather like small pancakes.e > C > Never heard of those in the UK or NA, are they more like a crepe?s  D Nope, they're about the thickness of a normal pancake, and about the@ diameter of what you'd call an english muffin. Often served with$ tea/coffee with jam & whipped cream.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:35:37 GMTm0 From: geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff McCaughan")D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The2 Message-ID: <JWk38.1622$Lv.228300@news.xtra.co.nz>   jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:   > >COD9 defines: > >pikelet // n. N.Engl. e > >a thin kind of crumpet.   > >PIKELETSs > >(SOMETIMES CALLED CRUMPETS)  > >1/2 lb. plain flour           > >1/2 pt. milk and water  > >1/2 teasp. salt             e > >Pinch of bicarbonate of sodai > >1/2 Oz. yeast t  I Well in NZ at least, pikelets & crumpets are completely different things,aF crumpets are made with yeast, pikelets are not. Pikelets are much more" similar to pancakes than crumpets.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:28:45 +0000I1 From: baba yaga <baba@elephantschild.demon.co.uk>nD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The8 Message-ID: <3gkq4u0f3nd65i6dgsmcvdv1i7hk2s814v@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 04:16:27 -0700, in alt.english.usage Brian Inglist( <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:  F >>Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well,B >>but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but inB >>the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of the' >>UK pronounce it the NZ way as well...  >a@ >NZ pronunciation probably came from Scotland as it's pronounced? >the same, whereas with a capital "S", the "o" is pronounced as A >"oo" as in Stone of Scone, and in England, the "o" is pronounced A >with more emphasis as "oh" or "ow" said as a gentle exclamation, B >not quite as in "drone", not really like any word I can think of.  B Not by those English people who know better, nor by Northerners inB general - afaik: this plague may have spread in the past 15 years.E The ohw sound is an affectation of the aspiring would-be-upper-middle B classes, though it has probably spread too far to be remediable.    F I believe it to be a post-war phenomenon, not that I go that far back.E It's my observation that any person of middle age or older who speaksa; of scohwnes is a phoney - unless of course, it's a humorous ? affectation.  If he also speaks of serviettes, the diagnosis ism certain.  ;-)  g  > >>Then there's pikelets, which are rather like small pancakes. > B >Never heard of those in the UK or NA, are they more like a crepe?  F Scotch pancakes, made on a griddle (a girdle, in Scotland).  I *think*@ they're the same thing as drop-scones, but wouldn't swear to it.B Scotch pancakes can now be bought, cold and wrapped in plastic, at@ supermarkets, presumably for reheating.  Barely fit for the dog.  	 Baba Yaga>   ...E) I'm afraid the preserve's full of stones;p# Beg pardon, I'm soiling the doileysi# With afternoon tea-cake and scones.s)      Betjeman, "How to get on in society"e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:40:32 +0000 % From: DJR <bass.a.voice@ntlworld.com>oD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The, Message-ID: <3C4DEA60.3B84A44E@ntlworld.com>   Alan Jones wrote:EN > BrE: scone is usually pronounced 'skon' (I dare not use 'gone' as the rhyme,J > because in BrE "gone" is sometimes 'gawn' - old-fashioned posh). "Scone"8 > rhymed with "own" is by some thought not quite proper   H Some UK English speakers may disagree entirely with this and assert that= the "correct" pronunciation of scone is to rhyme with "cone".    -- o David   B The address is valid, but I will change it at to keep ahead of the	 spammers.4   ------------------------------   Date: 23 Jan 2002 00:03:14 GMT3 From: never+mail@panics.com.invalid (Michael Roach) D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The) Message-ID: <a2kuk2$pch$1@news.panix.com>o  2 In article <HJ038.1329$Lv.178060@news.xtra.co.nz>,/ Geoff McCaughan <geoffm@spam.hormel.com> wrote:n' >JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote:e >lL >> Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very close= >> relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?m >sH >No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North American >that is close to crumpets.i >rQ >> Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are also relatede( >> to the crumpet/english muffin family. >pE >Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well,aA >but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but ineA >the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of thee& >UK pronounce it the NZ way as well...   Lumberjacks are from NZ? -- tG A continuing flow of paper is sufficient to continue the flow of paper.e	 		-- Dyero   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 01:00:26 +0000 (UTC)r" From: greenaum@BOLLOCKSyahoo.co.ukD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The4 Message-ID: <3c53760c.67389758@news.btopenworld.com>  5 On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 19:58:35 -0700, "Dennis O'Connor"y <dmoc@primenet.com> sprachen:w  9 >It seems inevitable that any thread cross-posted betweene4 >a VMS group and comp.arch, or between comp.arch and< >alt.folklore.computers, quickly degenerates into OT drivel,< >perpetuated by a small community of self-absorbed halfwits.5 >Apparently, these halfwits don't know how to set the , >follow-up header appropriately. Well, I do.  C So? Who would ever reply to such a lame post? People like you can'ttD tell others what to do on Usenet, away and spoil people's fun on IRC instead.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  H if love is a drug, then, ideally, it's a healing, healthful drug... it's@ kind of like prozac is supposed to work (without the sexual side5 effects and long-term damage to the brain and psyche)m   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:07:21 GMTa, From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The% Message-ID: <1011740841snz@dsl.co.uk>s  7 In article <hc8q4uom4ffi6pv35k8703b607eb2br3qn@4ax.com>nA            Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca "Brian Inglis" writes:t  + > [xposts trimmed, alt.english.usage added]  > B > On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMT, geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff > McCaughan") wrote: > ) > >JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote:n > >tN > >> Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very close? > >> relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?  > >rJ > >No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North American > >that is close to crumpets.  >  > Pancakes/hotcakes.    E Absolutely not; a crumpet is about 3in diameter, 1/2in thick, with an-E almost solid texture[1] on one flat face, whilst the other is full ofS0 largish holes from the aereation during proving.  I Although in fairness, they ARE a "pan cake".  They are made with a battereI which includes yeast (hence the reference to proving above, and the large-H air holes).  This mixture is then dropped into a "crumpet ring" which is% sitting on the griddle or frying pan.j  I The result is nothing like a pancake or crepe; it is slightly nearer to a2C "Scotch pancake" (aka "drop scone", "griddle scone" or even "girdle G scone") but all of those (except, perhaps, barley-flour crepes) tend to I be sweetish, whereas a crumpet is more likely to be thought of as savory.a  H Wonderful when toasted, spread with butter, and just a smear of Marmite.  G [1] Which is not, however, a crust.  It's softish and slightly rubbery.n   -- 7M Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.uksM     "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one ofQM     distributed ignorance.  And we know and understand less while being incr-EM     easingly capable."              Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labsi   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:16:54 -0500.% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>-D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The, Message-ID: <3C4E2B25.7A2F8C9F@videotron.ca>   Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:sK > be sweetish, whereas a crumpet is more likely to be thought of as savory.  > J > Wonderful when toasted, spread with butter, and just a smear of Marmite.  I Was all fine until you mentioned Marmite. Never quite figured out why theoL brits (Marmite), the Aussies and Kiwis (Vegemite) would have such an apetiteM for yeast infection. I think that offering Vegemite to anyone under 18 shoudlw  be considered child molestation.  M And what I don't quite get is why the USA is guilty of inflicting Aussies and H Kiwis with Vegemite (it is made by Kraft, a USA corporation). And poepleM complain about a few talibans being held by americans in a tropical "resort".gI Interesting that nobody would have complained if they had been sent to anp alaskan prison.y   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:11:17 -0600e% From: "Pat Durkin" <durk@nothome.com>sD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The/ Message-ID: <u4sdlf9qqftu59@corp.supernews.com>r  2 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C4E2B25.7A2F8C9F@videotron.ca... > Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote: E > > be sweetish, whereas a crumpet is more likely to be thought of as  savory.i > >lC > > Wonderful when toasted, spread with butter, and just a smear of/ Marmite. >nC > Was all fine until you mentioned Marmite. Never quite figured outg why thewF > brits (Marmite), the Aussies and Kiwis (Vegemite) would have such an apetite6E > for yeast infection. I think that offering Vegemite to anyone underi	 18 shoudl." > be considered child molestation. >nC > And what I don't quite get is why the USA is guilty of inflictingi Aussies andC? > Kiwis with Vegemite (it is made by Kraft, a USA corporation).e  < Hey, Kraft never imposed Vegemite on Oz.  It is native born.  ' cite:  from Kraft Canada.  do a Google.c "1923gF  VEGEMITE Yeast Spread is introduced in Australia by Fred Walker & Co.C of Melbourne. In 1926, Kraft Cheese Company acquires an interest in4 the company.  < Why did Vegemite, which has been owned by the American KraftE corporation since 1935 but never exported, become a cultural icon andEC a staple food in Australian households? Because it's cheap and easy)- and, above all, because it tastes fantastic."6  D To tell the truth, I am feeling deprived, here in Wisconsin, home ofF Oscar Mayer (another Kraft name).  I wonder if there is some way I canE persuade Kraft to start manufacturing Vegemite here.  Or maybe one of $ the stores can import it or Marmite.  > Oh, the Vegemite website says J.L. Kraft and his brothers wereC originally from Canada.  Don't know about that.  Do Canadians enjoys Marmite and Vegemite?x   Pate   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 01:39:55 -0500s% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>aD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The+ Message-ID: <3C4E5AB1.C75106D@videotron.ca>g   Pat Durkin wrote:d@ > Oh, the Vegemite website says J.L. Kraft and his brothers wereE > originally from Canada.  Don't know about that.  Do Canadians enjoy  > Marmite and Vegemite?-  J Nop. My theory is that baby australians are spoon fed some of that stuff 5G seconds after their umbilical cord is cut. Their system feels instantlyDM deprived so it learns to accept any substance as food, hence the baby becomesnI accustomed to that yest infection stuff. But if the baby doesn't get thatlJ treatment at birth, he/she is not likely to be able to eat that substance.  ' As for myself, I am partial to Nutella.0   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 19:48:47 +1300.# From: Bruce Hoult <bruce@hoult.org>uD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The> Message-ID: <bruce-EC7C49.19484723012002@news.paradise.net.nz>  5 In article <3C4E5AB1.C75106D@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei e <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote:5   > Pat Durkin wrote:lB > > Oh, the Vegemite website says J.L. Kraft and his brothers wereG > > originally from Canada.  Don't know about that.  Do Canadians enjoyS > > Marmite and Vegemite?i > K > Nop. My theory is that baby australians are spoon fed some of that stuff - > 5-I > seconds after their umbilical cord is cut. Their system feels instantlyeH > deprived so it learns to accept any substance as food, hence the baby 	 > becomes4K > accustomed to that yest infection stuff. But if the baby doesn't get that B > treatment at birth, he/she is not likely to be able to eat that  > substance.  " I don't recall such an experience.  C Also, my partner is from Europe (came to NZ in her early 30's) and i& probably eats more Vegemite than I do.    ( > As for myself, I am partial to Nutella   Ick!!h  5 "Less sugar than some jams, less fat than pure lard".   H Gimme peanut butter any day.  And not that US stuff with loads of sugar G either.  NZ peanut butter has peanuts, a little salt, and nothing else.    -- Bruce   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:45:15 +0000m/ From: cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of c ) Message-ID: <rvbk2a.9g2.ln@teabag.cbhnet>d  6 According to Rupert Pigott <Darkb00ng@btinternet.com>:C > You're going to get a shock if you expect buns to be consistentlyi > sweet up north mate. :)s  C Dunno if this is what you're getting at, but for a moment I had thefC song "Now He's A Poof" running through my mind (from the Macc Lads' - fine album, "Beer and Sex and Chips'n'Gravy")    Chris.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:18:54 GMTc, From: bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly})Y Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise       of c % Message-ID: <1011741534snz@dsl.co.uk>r  ' In article <5qkj2a.to.ln@teabag.cbhnet>r<            cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk "Chris Hedley" writes:  8 > According to Geoff McCaughan <geoffm@spam.hormel.com>:E > > >     Well, as it seems to work here... buns are roughly spheroidb& > > > and rolls roughly cylindrical.   > > I > > Well I'd have said that buns tend to be cake-like, and anything small2  > > and made of bread is a roll. > I > But there's still the ubiquitous "burger in a bun," which is distinctlycG > non-cakelike.  I also forgot to mention the third alternative, "bap,"cI > which is rolled out whenever some non-local thinks that they're getting G > the hang of the bun/roll confusion.  As far as I can tell, a bap is a@H > non-exchangable word for a bun when it's not a roll.  Or maybe when itD > is a roll.  I suspect that the usage of bap, roll and bun probablyH > varies according to the day of the week, the lunar cycle and maybe the
 > weather.  3 Bap is surely a regional variation; like barm-cake..   --  M Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.uklM     "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one oftM     distributed ignorance.  And we know and understand less while being incr-eM     easingly capable."              Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labse   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:23:00 +01002/ From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>fY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The    demise    of comp-4 Message-ID: <VA.0000051f.4d861b55@bluewin.delete.ch>  = In article <3c4f26fe.162580709@news.btopenworld.com>,  wrote:,0 > On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 11:49:09 +0100, Paul Sture* > <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch> sprachen: > / > >Let's face it - English is a crazy language.v > H > Nah it takes a lot after German, French and Latin. Other languages areA > just as wierd, and still have lots of historical exceptions andIF > homonyms. Anyone who speaks a vaguely-related language can get their > head round it. > E I know. Greek in there too. I used to have many a conversation with a.F guy here who had studied at least Latin, Greek and German (he had beenJ a German professor in the US). Those conversations were truly fascinating J - I wish I could remember more of the details. (He's sadly no longer with  us).  H > There's a myth it's the hardest language to learn, I don't think it isF > (learn means "learn" in that sentence, not to teach, like it does toE > half of the people round here who still haven't mastered it despitemG > being born English. Somebody ought to learn them to speak properly.).c >vE Aha. The guy above reckoned that it was possible to learn German more E or less completely, given sufficient time and effort. His opinion of .F English was that whilst it is quite easy to learn to speak reasonably + well, the finer points can take a lifetime.1  E > What about Eurolang? It's basically a mix of various Euro languagesaH > using words that have enough in common that any European can speak and? > understand it without having to learn very much. Not really ayG > language, but I'll have to catch up on it, to see if it really works.c >p  ; Haven't tried it, but suspect I speak a fair bit already:-)2  G > It's amusing to go to France where most people can speak a reasonablycG > useful amount of English. But don't! If I blather them with enough ofDH > my terrible French (I have a good accent, I just can't remember any ofG > the words) eventually even the stubborn ones give up and ask "what dow
 > you want?".  >>F That was a definite problem when I was in France nearly 20 years ago. I School French definitely didn't cut the mustard, so I took classes. More  H recent attempts to speak French show how rusty it has become since then.  J (One Parisian recollection - on one trip to the airport I had an in depth K political conversation with a Parisian taxi driver without any difficulty. dI On landing in London I got a Cockney driver who was telling me something w> about, I think, a fishing trip, but I wasn't really sure :-) )  K It has changed. On my last visit to France I was trying to practise French tB but got outvoted by those who wanted to practise their English :-(  F > Still the one amusing one my German grandmother had trouble with was: > "where's Jim?" "He's in bed with a chesty cow! [cough]". >e That's good :-)p   ___ 
 Paul Sture Switzerlandd   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 18:57:03 -0500r% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>rY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The demise       of comph, Message-ID: <3C4DFC4D.B92D87F7@videotron.ca>   Chris Hedley wrote:sE > Dunno if this is what you're getting at, but for a moment I had theeE > song "Now He's A Poof" running through my mind (from the Macc Lads'o/ > fine album, "Beer and Sex and Chips'n'Gravy")i    - Here is another one an Aussie can ask a yank:h  + A poof jumps on your back, what do you do ?  	1- do you let him do it,  or	2- do you pull him off ?e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:40:19 GMT + From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com>eC Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Thei4 Message-ID: <1011739179.31456@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>  / "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com> wrote in message-( news:q0e38.86$EU.2562@news.get2net.dk... > IIRC >mI > pikelets are rather like small, thick pancakes, eaten cold with butter,p jamc > and whipped cream.  E Nooo..I'm from the Black Country (an area west of Birmingham, UK) andrL pikelets are the same as what the rest of the country calls crumpets. Served& hot with butter and jam or honey..yum!  K > crumpets are those things full of air holes you buy in a packet and toasti  > and eat with butter and honey.  $ Yum, yes these are pikelets as above  J > scones are a small, dry, horrid breadlike thingy, shaped like a bun (but" > smaller) and eaten like piklets.  F I now live in Devon and the best thing is a cream tea. A scone (light,J fluffy, round, moist and about 2 inches high, slightly thicker tan a breadD roll) is wonderful with clotted cream (another english delicacy) and strawberry jam!r  $ The flat things are scotch pankakes.   Andy   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 23:41:36 -0000a3 From: "Malcolm" <malcolm@neverness.freeserve.co.uk>mC Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was Theu. Message-ID: <a2kt64$gjr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>  / "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com> wrote in message ( news:q0e38.86$EU.2562@news.get2net.dk... > IIRC > I > pikelets are rather like small, thick pancakes, eaten cold with butter,e jaml > and whipped cream.K > crumpets are those things full of air holes you buy in a packet and toastm  > and eat with butter and honey.J > scones are a small, dry, horrid breadlike thingy, shaped like a bun (but" > smaller) and eaten like piklets.A > muffins seem to be a very flat heavy bread bun that one toasts.h > J > as for muffins, the English and American varieties are almost completelyB > unlike each other and unrelated as culinary items.  Etymological# > similarities are a mystery to me.- >-J > In Australia and NZ, scone - pronounced like "gone" and Scone (the town)+ > pronounced as it is spelled (like "own").  >s > In UK it varies I think. >TG Usually pronounced "scawn", sometimes "scoan". At least here in the UK.n  K And just to top it off, there is a castle called Scone in Scotland which is  pronounced "scoon" ;)n   -Malcom.   > Dweeb./ > <Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com> wrote in messagem6 > news:OF09C20F77.9C1B665D-ON00256B49.0044CABF@btyp... > >  > >iC > > Pikelets are crumpets. I know the word is used in the Midlands,A
 especially > > the black country. > >tJ > > The best suggestion I can think of to help those poor unfortunates who > liveJ > > outside the UK and cannot enjoy the full range of culinary delights we arewJ > > exposed to is to visit http://www.waitrose.com and have a browse round the-G > > goods. Bakery and Pattiserie, then Morning Goods will gave the full  rangehK > > of crumpets, bagels, muffins [American and English], pancakes [English,o) > > Scots and other], croissants etc etc.a > >t
 > > Cheers > >s > > Steve S- > >- > >- > >- > >-L > > Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> on 01/22/2002 11:16:27 AM > >l$ > > To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > cc:rI > > From:      Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca>, 22 Januaryt > 2002,q > >            11:16 a.m.3 > >x? > > Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The  > >s > > - > > [xposts trimmed, alt.english.usage added]  > >nD > > On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 22:36:23 GMT, geoffm@spam.hormel.com ("Geoff > > McCaughan") wrote: > >e+ > > >JF Mezei (jfmezei@videotron.ca) wrote:A > > >aJ > > >> Agree that they are not muffins. But arent "english muffins" a very	 > > closepA > > >> relative to crumpets which are (I believe) quite british ?e > > > L > > >No, quite different to crumpets. Can't think of anything North American > > >that is close to crumpets.  > >u > > Pancakes/hotcakes. > >3H > > >> Also, in New Zealand, they have "scones" which I believe that are also > > relatedr, > > >> to the crumpet/english muffin family. > > > I > > >Scones are hardly unique to NZ, they have them in Oz and UK as well,hE > > >but in NZ they are pronounced with the 'o' and in 'gone', but in E > > >the UK, it's with the 'o' as in 'drone'. Maybe some parts of thee* > > >UK pronounce it the NZ way as well... > >gC > > NZ pronunciation probably came from Scotland as it's pronouncedlB > > the same, whereas with a capital "S", the "o" is pronounced asD > > "oo" as in Stone of Scone, and in England, the "o" is pronouncedD > > with more emphasis as "oh" or "ow" said as a gentle exclamation,E > > not quite as in "drone", not really like any word I can think of.r > > A > > >Then there's pikelets, which are rather like small pancakes.' > >tE > > Never heard of those in the UK or NA, are they more like a crepe?  > >  > >  > > -- > > ? > > Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis    Calgary, Alberta, Canadak > >dI > > Brian.Inglis@CSi.com     (Brian dot Inglis at SystematicSw dot ab dots ca)l7 > >     fake address         use address above to reply  > >fC > > tosspam@aol.com abuse@aol.com abuse@yahoo.com abuse@hotmail.com-J > > abuse@msn.com abuse@sprint.com abuse@earthlink.com abuse@cadvision.com# > > abuse@ibsystems.com uce@ftc.govt, > >                               spam traps > >D > >4 > >. > >C > >dJ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > >  > >l  > > [Information] -- PostMaster:H > > This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beK > > confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message hashK > > been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,a( > > distribute or use this transmission. > >iL > > Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isK > > not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have received F > > this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the
 > message. > >a > > Thank you. > >eH > > Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.? > > Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.- > >-B > > Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading,
 Berkshire,H > > RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041. > >r > >( >s >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:23:00 +0100i/ From: Paul Sture <paul.sture@bluewin.delete.ch>CY Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of     compaq  4 Message-ID: <VA.00000520.4d861b69@bluewin.delete.ch>  L In article <lo7q4u86ed9le13m9rtfis4nj9c5b6nctg@4ax.com>, Brian Inglis wrote:+ > [xposts trimmed, alt.english.usage added]e  
 Good idea.  K The url I have here doesn't work anymore, but sticking "britspeak" into theaF search engine of your choice brings up a variety of US - dictionaries.   ___a
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 21:30:02 GMTh$ From: Jeff Teunissen <deek@d2dc.net>X Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of   compaq )( Message-ID: <3C4DD90C.1D0A31E7@d2dc.net>   JF Mezei wrote:f   [snip]  D > Or some american coming up to a girl at a hostel check-in desk andI > saying in a fairly loud voice and smile: "HI I AM RANDY" .... (with the  > girl having quite a smirk).o > = > In a context outside of the usa, it means "hi ! I am horny"a3 > and in the USA, it means "Hi ! my name is Randy".    It could mean either here. :)o   -- sJ | Jeff Teunissen  -=-  Pres., Dusk To Dawn Computing  -=-  deek @ d2dc.netJ | GPG: 1024D/9840105A   7102 808A 7733 C2F3 097B  161B 9222 DAB8 9840 105AJ | Core developer, The QuakeForge Project        http://www.quakeforge.net/J | Specializing in Debian GNU/Linux              http://www.d2dc.net/~deek/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 19:42:41 +0100s, From: Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net>V Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq )7 Message-ID: <20020122194241.229c4cac.steveo@eircom.net>a  " On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 12:09:41 +00000 cbh@ieya.co.REMOVE_THIS.uk (Chris Hedley) wrote:  I CH> non-cakelike.  I also forgot to mention the third alternative, "bap,"iK CH> which is rolled out whenever some non-local thinks that they're gettingtI CH> the hang of the bun/roll confusion.  As far as I can tell, a bap is aD   	Damn, you caught me at it :)    -- eH C:>WIN                                          |     Directable MirrorsN The computer obeys and wins.                    |A Better Way To Focus The SunL You lose and Bill collects.                     |  licenses available - see:J                                                 |   http://www.sohara.org/   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jan 2002 20:58:57 GMT& From: stanb@dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr)V Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The demise of compaq ); Message-ID: <slrna4reb1.4o4.stanb@citadel.metropolis.local>r  7 On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 08:18:51 +0100, Steve O'Hara-Smith D <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:! >On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 21:19:29 GMTc. >liam@nessie.xinqu.net (Liam Greenwood) wrote: >mA >LG> 	Well, as it seems to work here... buns are roughly spheroide% >LG> and rolls roughly cylindrical.  o >r >	OK fine so far - now baps ?    a.k.a. "batch"...    -- D Cheers,n Stan Barr  stanb@dial.pipex.come   The future was never like this!b   ------------------------------    Date: 23 Jan 2002 11:19:26 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>B Subject: Re: [Q] Why is there the limit of 8 levels of directories- Message-ID: <87d701wy81.fsf@prep.synonet.com>t  , "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  ; > "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in messagee) > news:87zo38wrsf.fsf@prep.synonet.com... 3 > > "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> writes:m  ? > > > I am not aware of the specific reasoning behind the olderg > > > limitations.  : > > If you have an entry that points to a directory below,   > Rather, above.   Silly upside-down septics... ;)m  C >  you have an > infinite loop of directories. Ugly experience withi? > some unixs (system > crashing on an ls :( ) meant that it wasl > considered a thing to avoid!  F > This is indeed a good reason to have a recursion limit (unless there? > are enforceable restrictions on creating such loops - e.g., ItC > believe NT's kernel performs a synchronized check before allowinggD > directory creation or rename), but does not explain why a limit asC > low as 8 would be set (though to be fair 8 actually seemed like a  > *lot* two decades ago...).  G I can't remember hearing a solid reason, but as 256MB was the *MAXIMUM*aH supported memory for your 396(?)* users, it was kept pretty tight. 8 wasH 7 more than RSX or RSTS, and about the same as Tops-10s new SFD I think.  G I do rember that when the promise of 39+39 was anounced, some one askedrG if the number of DIRs was also to be increased, and no one seemed upset  at the answer.  I * Does anyone have the exact number from the SPD? It was good for a laughcK and no one took it as anything other than a joke. I suspect the user numberM@ came from the max possible number of DHs or some such sillyness.   -- f< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.y@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.043 ************************