0 INFO-VAX	Mon, 28 Jan 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 54      Contents:/ Re: Advanced Server 7.3 issues when PDC reboots ! Alphaserver 4100: physical memory 9 Attunity:  %SYSTEM-W-UNWIND, unwind currently in progress  Attunity:  Log messageP Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DEC- Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files? 1 Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files? 1 Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files? 1 Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files? 1 Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files? 1 Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files? 1 Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files? 4 Re: Capellas is either a "moron" or he's "paid off"!4 RE: Capellas is either a "moron" or he's "paid off"!4 Re: Capellas is either a "moron" or he's "paid off"!D Re: Capellas redefines Industry Standard to mean Windows *and* LinuxD Re: Capellas redefines Industry Standard to mean Windows *and* LinuxD Re: Capellas redefines Industry Standard to mean Windows *and* LinuxD RE: Capellas redefines Industry Standard to mean Windows *and* LinuxD Re: Capellas redefines Industry Standard to mean Windows *and* Linux3 Re: comp.sys.dec, FINAL NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference  Re: Compaq financial conference P Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses   allcredibi Re: copy subdirectory  Re: copy subdirectory " Re: Cross Compiler to SUN/Solaris?" Re: Cross Compiler to SUN/Solaris?" Re: Cross Compiler to SUN/Solaris?" Re: Cross Compiler to SUN/Solaris?$ Re: DHCP as a client using Multinet?' Export Monitor Data to CSV file, Excel? + Re: Export Monitor Data to CSV file, Excel? + Re: Export Monitor Data to CSV file, Excel? 3 FS[UK]: Compaq OpenVMS Alpha V7.2 Update CD-ROM Kit ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility! ; Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!  Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question  Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question  Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question  Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question  Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question  Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question ! Re: I/O Performance on Alpha 4100 ! Re: I/O Performance on Alpha 4100 ) Re: Inquirer : "Intel *could* can Itanic"  Re: Looking for a VMS job  Re: Low resource on VMS L Marmite FAQ [was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The]. Microsoft costs sucker windoze users billions!2 RE: Microsoft costs sucker windoze users billions! Re: mount problems on cluster ( Re: new partner also sent to openvms.org' ON ERROR when READ SYS$INPUT?!?!?!??!?! + Re: ON ERROR when READ SYS$INPUT?!?!?!??!?!  Open StarOffice help? Re: StarOffice help? Re: StarOffice help? RE: StarOffice help? Re: StarOffice help? Re: StarOffice help? STR$lowercase ?  Re: STR$lowercase ? % Re: What is unix for SEARCH /WINDOW=0 1 Re: Wierd File Reading Behaviour - Dec C on Alpha  WWW.GIWERSWORLD.ORG ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:07:29 -0000 + From: "Tim Jackson" <tim.jackson@amsjv.com> 8 Subject: Re: Advanced Server 7.3 issues when PDC reboots& Message-ID: <3c556933$1@pull.gecm.com>   Brad,   G Would these patches be part of the hopefully soon forthcoming ECO 1 for  AS 7.3?    TIA D ------------------ Purely Personal Opinion -------------------------D Tim Jackson                                    tim.jackson@amsjv.com Air Systems Group  Alenia Marconi Systems Ltd.   @ "Brad McCusker" <Brad.McCuskerNOSP@MCompaq.com> wrote in message) news:RPj48.58$am1.650@news.cpqcorp.net...  > Ed,  > E > We recently had an escalation for a problem with the failover code.  Please	 > contact B > your CSC, and ahve them escalate this to engineering.  Have them	 reference  > the  > "-89520" patches.  > 
 > Regards, >  > Brad >  > 1 > "Ed Wilts" <ewilts@ewilts.org> wrote in message 8 > news:P9348.26444$yC.3433370@typhoon.mn.mediaone.net...H > > Background:  we're an AS7.3 member server .  We had a case where our > domainD > > PDC (Win2K) took a nosedive and had to be rebooted.  Immediately	 following H > > that, we started to log errors from only 1 of our cluster hosts (out of 3H > > that run AS) that it could not reach a domain controller, even after the  > PDC A > > was rebooted.  The other 2 cluster hosts continued to run and  authenticateA > > fine.  I ended up having to do a PWSTOP and PWSTART to get it  functioning  > > again.  My questions: C > >     1.Is there a mechanism to determine which domain controller  we're  > > authenticating against? H > >     2.If a PDC is rebooted, how do I tell AS to authenticate against	 > another 5 > > domain controller?  Should this not be automatic?  > > @ > > Our domain has 1 PDC (obviously) and about 30 BDCs scattered
 throughout > the B > > world, although mostly within the US and most not close to the VMScluster.  > >  > > Thanks,  > >     .../Ed > > -- > > Ed Wilts > > Mounds View, MN, USA > > mailto:ewilts@ewilts.org > >  > >  >  >    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:26:37 -0800 (PST) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>* Subject: Alphaserver 4100: physical memory@ Message-ID: <20020128182637.42380.qmail@web20203.mail.yahoo.com>  	 Dear Sirs   + Is there a way to check the position of the ( memory  in the Alphaserver 4100 slots=20% using ANALYZE/SYSTEM or DECEvent ?=20   & We have two 4100 (one with 4GB and the' other with 6 GB) and we need to upgrade ) both to 8 GB (max memory in this server).   , So, I dont want to open the machines, and=20$ I need to make the specifications of the current memory positions.    Regards    FC=20    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?5 Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!=20  http://auctions.yahoo.com    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:22:57 -0800 (PST) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>B Subject: Attunity:  %SYSTEM-W-UNWIND, unwind currently in progress@ Message-ID: <20020128182257.89094.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com>  	 Dear Sirs   1 We are installing Attunity 3.2 in our development  server: OpenVMS 7.3 / TCPIP 5.1 1 and we are receive the message below in our logs. 4 We didnt understand the reason of this message and I2 looked for some informaion at the Wizard and didnt discover anythig.    $ HELP/MESSAGE unwind   &  UNWIND,  unwind currently in progress  '   Facility:     SYSTEM, System Services   2   Explanation:  This status code is used as a call argument for condition4                 handlers called during the search of the call stack during 2                 an unwind operation. The operating system does not normally%                 display this message.   -   User Action:  Modify the source program, if   necessary, to detect and respond!                 to the condition.    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?5 Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!=20  http://auctions.yahoo.com    ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:23:54 -0800 (PST) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> Subject: Attunity:  Log message @ Message-ID: <20020128182354.10795.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com>  	 Dear Sirs $ I forgot to post the log in the last mesage  
 $ Set NoOn1 $ VERIFY =3D F$VERIFY(F$TRNLNM("SYLOGIN_VERIFY")) 5 Attunity Connect Log File (Version 3.2.00.00) Started  at 28-Jan-02 11:14:31 4 Client 10.163.44.235:3189 (#1) (id is NAVXML CLIENT)
 has connected  Datatype id 35 already exists 6 Bus error (access violation) has occured (signal 10) - attempting recovery.... %SYSTEM-W-UNWIND, unwind currently in progress,   SYSTEM       job terminated at 28-JAN-2002 11:14:32.40 ! <CR><LF>  Accounting information: 2   Buffered I/O count:                185      Peak working set size:      129922   Direct I/O count:                   65      Peak virtual size:         1872805   Page faults:                       694      Mounted  volumes:                0 5   Charged CPU time:        0 00:00:00.32      Elapsed  time:       0 00:00:01.16    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?5 Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!=20  http://auctions.yahoo.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:46:44 +0000 % From: "a.carlini" <arcarlini@iee.org> Y Subject: Re: BLISS pros and cons, was: Re: historical evidence of what went wrong  at DEC ' Message-ID: <3C558E84.83E2B32A@iee.org>    Peter da Silva wrote:  > ? > In article <5b86b9ee.0201220747.3f527e97@posting.google.com>, / > Jeremy Barker <jeremybarker@email.com> wrote: A > >It's probably easier to translate C to BLISS than the reverse. I > >Especially given that nothing in C can match the BLISS macro facility.  > O > That's what m4 was invented for. It works just fine as a C preprocessor, too.   & And m4 was used as one for the DECnis  FDDI line card too IIRC.  ) So not *everything* was done in BLISS :-)    Antonio    --     --------------- - Antonio Carlini             arcarlini@iee.org    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 03:11:05 -0800 From: br@b-con.dk (Bendix Riis) 6 Subject: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files?= Message-ID: <9946d62e.0201280311.59679c3a@posting.google.com>   D Does anyone know a method for PC's to read (by key) index-sequential files on a VMS system?   Bendix Riis  B-con  email: br@b-con.dk   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 06:18:45 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) : Subject: Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files?3 Message-ID: <cNQCBb9HZyNo@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <9946d62e.0201280311.59679c3a@posting.google.com>, br@b-con.dk (Bendix Riis) writes: F > Does anyone know a method for PC's to read (by key) index-sequential > files on a VMS system?  F Perhaps the DECnet support in Pathworks provides this.  Certainly they8 can be read by key over DECnet from a remote VMS system.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:21:00 +0100 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> : Subject: Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files?' Message-ID: <3C55422C.26B1205F@aaa.com>   > Yes, but DECnet only give access to the file, RMS on the local1 system still does the key/index processing, not ?   > There are some "ODBC drivers for RMS" that could do the trick.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > a > In article <9946d62e.0201280311.59679c3a@posting.google.com>, br@b-con.dk (Bendix Riis) writes: H > > Does anyone know a method for PC's to read (by key) index-sequential > > files on a VMS system? > H > Perhaps the DECnet support in Pathworks provides this.  Certainly they: > can be read by key over DECnet from a remote VMS system.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 05:39:46 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski): Subject: Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files?= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201280539.4f7592e2@posting.google.com>   d br@b-con.dk (Bendix Riis) wrote in message news:<9946d62e.0201280311.59679c3a@posting.google.com>...F > Does anyone know a method for PC's to read (by key) index-sequential > files on a VMS system? > 
 > Bendix Riis  > B-con  > email: br@b-con.dk  > synergex who makes synergy dibol has a product called xfserver that does just that ...    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:02:23 -0500 0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>: Subject: Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files?3 Message-ID: <BLd58.2172$EI.11825@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   % We use ConnX ODBC for RMS. Good tool. D A PC by itself could access the file if you have PathWorks installedG (Advanced Server is its new name) but not by using the index structure.    --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais) > To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  9 "Bendix Riis" <br@b-con.dk> a crit dans le message news: 2 9946d62e.0201280311.59679c3a@posting.google.com...F > Does anyone know a method for PC's to read (by key) index-sequential > files on a VMS system? > 
 > Bendix Riis  > B-con  > email: br@b-con.dk   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:56:04 -0500 + From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@intel.com> : Subject: Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files?8 Message-ID: <9jpa5u09os6ba3q0npbk7r6vshm2682olr@4ax.com>  ? On 28 Jan 2002 03:11:05 -0800, br@b-con.dk (Bendix Riis) wrote:   E >Does anyone know a method for PC's to read (by key) index-sequential  >files on a VMS system?   ? Contact Sector 7 at http://www.sector7.com/ - I think they have  software for this.      D Please send Visual Fortran support requests to vf-support@compaq.com   Steve Lionel Compaq Fortran Engineering Intel Corporation 
 Nashua, NH  . Compaq Fortran - http://www.compaq.com/fortranK Intel Fortran - http://developer.intel.com/software/products/compilers/f50/    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:51:50 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: Can PC's read OpenVMS index-sequential files?C Message-ID: <Wcg58.164405$QB1.12200957@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message ! news:3C55422C.26B1205F@aaa.com... @ > Yes, but DECnet only give access to the file, RMS on the local3 > system still does the key/index processing, not ?   J DECnet certainly used to provide record-level access.  Among other things,D this avoids distributed record-level locking issues (and RMS versionE difference issues) that would have to be handled if it passed buckets  around.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:38:48 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>= Subject: Re: Capellas is either a "moron" or he's "paid off"! ) Message-ID: <3C557E98.78D83737@127.0.0.1>    "David J. Dachtera" wrote:  F > "Windows" and "efficiency" in the same sentence should constitute an > oxymoron, no?    My observation exactly David.   > All these folks 'upgrading' to W2K, pumping money into the sw,> prerequisite hardware upgrades, staff and consultant time, andF subsequent user loss of productivity due to differences/bugs/effect of4 other changes (pick any 1 or more, or add others)...  H ..Yet refuse (or resist) to upgrade the VMS infrastructure which is moreH or less guaranteed not to have the same issues, and the 'bums on seats'* cost model is cheaper.   Sigh. + * Does that translate well into US-English?  --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:53:15 -0500 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>= Subject: RE: Capellas is either a "moron" or he's "paid off"! - Message-ID: <0033000049469654000002L042*@MHS>O  2 =0AIf one is conversant with both UK and US slang,. it becomes a most appropriate double entendre.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETl' Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:42 AMeB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET= Subject: RE: Capellas is either a "moron" or he's "paid off"!      "David J. Dachtera" wrote:  F > "Windows" and "efficiency" in the same sentence should constitute an > oxymoron, no?M   My observation exactly David.a  > All these folks 'upgrading' to W2K, pumping money into the sw,> prerequisite hardware upgrades, staff and consultant time, andF subsequent user loss of productivity due to differences/bugs/effect of4 other changes (pick any 1 or more, or add others)...  G .Yet refuse (or resist) to upgrade the VMS infrastructure which is mor=n eIH or less guaranteed not to have the same issues, and the 'bums on seats'= *  cost model is cheaper.   Sigh.n+ * Does that translate well into US-English?t --( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com=   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:39:58 GMTe% From: rw@eircom.net (Russell Wallace)c= Subject: Re: Capellas is either a "moron" or he's "paid off"!e0 Message-ID: <3c558bf3.177969923@news.eircom.net>  A On 25 Jan 2002 13:57:27 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)q wrote:  : >Itanic is garbage as the first spec results out shows ...   Yep.   >Alpha still >isp  >the only true high end chip ...  E Well it's the best of them, though from the figures I've seen, POWER4n looks like a worthy competitor.n  % >if Intel doesn't adapt it fully intoc >itanium >and continue EV8 developmentG  C Adapt Alpha into Itanium? I don't really understand why people keeprB saying this; Alpha's strength is in what it does _not_ have - it'sE about the cleanest of the RISC architectures. Like virginity, this is > a virtue which can only be lost over time, not regained... andF Itanium, to put it mildly, does not have it. That's part of the reasonD for believing Itanium's successors will find it very hard to do much better.p  ' >then IBM power will take over the highe	 >end, andr@ >Capellas thinking that windows or linux are the high end future; >without a good 64 bit multiprocessing platform means he is   : I imagine he had faith that Itanium would be a good 64 bitB multiprocessing platform. And indeed it would have been nice if itC was, unfortunately the evidence seems to be pointing the other way.i   -- t3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."r mailto:rw@eircom.net! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:38:28 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>RM Subject: Re: Capellas redefines Industry Standard to mean Windows *and* Linuxk8 Message-ID: <sb6a5usb5rtqv0nab1kjpo3frhq8jm97er@4ax.com>  C On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:16:01 +0010, paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.aul wrote:   >eE >I trust "eviscerating" was his word not part of your paraphrasing.  E@ >Since it seems to make no sense -- what does "disembowelling a A >proprietary system" mean? -- I can understand such ignorant and l  C Yep it was the word he used. Sort of implies (to me) that, by usinghB such language,  he's taking sides and is deliriously happy that MS- WIndows is destroying everything in its path.n  B >pretentious vocabulary after reading some of his other "piece de  >majeste", but not from you. > " >>Better open source VMS now then. >>= >>Interestingly Capellas seems to be defining Windows as non a
 >>proprietary ' >>again. Someone should tell Microsoft.a >vE >But didn't King Billie III, only a short while ago, claim that open gF >source would not have existed without Microsoft?  I could never work & >out what he intended to mean by that.  E He knows he can say almost anything and 99% of the general population-/ believe him because they don't know any better.    >  >Regards, Paddyj   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:38:50 +0000B% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>mM Subject: Re: Capellas redefines Industry Standard to mean Windows *and* Linuxa8 Message-ID: <107a5u8bld0j2jndj9i97ft1kpbnoql3k8@4ax.com>  F On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 18:21:32 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:   >eI >Perhaps Curly's been taking lessons from Mike "soft underbelly" Winkler.   7 He managed to slip in "underbelly" as well as I recall.P   >2 >- bill4 >7 >y   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:48:32 GMTa# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>KM Subject: Re: Capellas redefines Industry Standard to mean Windows *and* Linuxe0 Message-ID: <4xd58.6525$bIE.6059@news1.bloor.is>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messageh7 news:d7791aa1.0201270618.3694875e@posting.google.com...e >tF > the size of the app should never matter ... security and relaibility shouldE > always be a priority when building any system, no matter what size!    Bob,  J That's nice in theory, but when most business owners sign the cheques theyL are thinking how much the cheque is for today, not how secure the system is.I This is in part encouraged by such practices as focusing on this and nexteL quarter's earnings if it's a public company; and keeping the local banker in> Podunk, Ohio  happy enough that he doesn't pull your operatingJ line-of-credit if it's a smaller business. The local banker has no f!ckingI clue about OpenVMS...he only knows what he hears..and that's Windows, and K maybe unix, and he starts to think about the value of the collateral on his-# lines-of-credit he extended to you.3  E This is where OpenVMS and its TCO studies have to be made more widelyA available and promoted heavily.   J But even if they are, for every one 3rd-party that's available on OpenVMS,J there are 10 or more that are available on unix or NT/2000/XP. Taking thisL issue of the quality of the apps aside for a moment, what this means is thatF the average smaller business owner or IT head has only a 10% chance ofE selecting an OpenVMS-based app - and that's asuming that they have nosC prejudice towards using an o/s they've probably never even heard ofsF (courtesy Compaq). In reality it's much less than a 10% chance, for anF number of reasons...mostly because OpenVMS isn't sold to new customersJ (courtesy Compaq). And because where is the company going to find somebodyJ with OpenVMS skills to run the systems these days? Most IT shops won't payI to have new guys trained the day the walk in the door...they want the new_F guys to bring the skills with them, and that pool of talent is getting/ smaller and smaller each day (courtesy Compaq).-   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:25:49 -0600i+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>:M Subject: RE: Capellas redefines Industry Standard to mean Windows *and* Linux2L Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E1C4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----. > From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei@videotron.ca]  @ > The deed was done a decade ago. Only a few more years of pain  > and uncertaintye@ > until VMS' retirement is officially announced and after that,  > no more debatesE > on what could be done.  H Everybody just hope that Mentec (or Process? ;) gets to it before CA. :P   In all seriousness, it's a little early, especially with Compaq's whole merger thing going on, to predict the imminent death of VMS.  At any rate, windows is obviously non-proprietary because it runs on intel trash (In marketoid that translates to "Industry Standard" and "Open" -- marketoids must not have a word for junk).  VMS will join the ranks of proprietary non-proprietary systems soon, in that case.   Note that I'm not disparaging the port, either, but I like Alpha much better, and had hoped that should they ever port to intel, Alpha would still be available indefinitely afterwards.  > > This is actually great for hobbyists. Within a few years, a  > Wildfire class< > system will be available for a few dollars (actually, the  > movers may chargef" > more than the machine is worth).  5 I certainly would like to have one in my living room.-  9 > There are still people who swear by their Amiga or OS2   > systems and stillf8 > defend it, and in a few years, we'll join their ranks.  , Wonderful systems for personal machines.  ;)   Regards,   Chris     ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");V 'i  3   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 16:02:07 GMT)4 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@mediaone.net>M Subject: Re: Capellas redefines Industry Standard to mean Windows *and* Linuxp) Message-ID: <3Ce58.300$9U4.168@rwcrnsc54>c  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message* news:4xd58.6525$bIE.6059@news1.bloor.is... >n7 > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message19 > news:d7791aa1.0201270618.3694875e@posting.google.com...u > > H > > the size of the app should never matter ... security and relaibility > shouldG > > always be a priority when building any system, no matter what size!  >e > Bob, >0L > That's nice in theory, but when most business owners sign the cheques theyJ > are thinking how much the cheque is for today, not how secure the system is.=K > This is in part encouraged by such practices as focusing on this and nextaK > quarter's earnings if it's a public company; and keeping the local bankerD in@ > Podunk, Ohio  happy enough that he doesn't pull your operatingL > line-of-credit if it's a smaller business. The local banker has no f!ckingK > clue about OpenVMS...he only knows what he hears..and that's Windows, and I > maybe unix, and he starts to think about the value of the collateral onu his:% > lines-of-credit he extended to you.o >aG > This is where OpenVMS and its TCO studies have to be made more widelye! > available and promoted heavily.   / Agreed. This is a job for Downstream Marketing.g   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jan 2002 09:01:04 GMT) From: leslie@clio.rice.edu (Jerry Leslie)S< Subject: Re: comp.sys.dec, FINAL NOTICE of Newsgroup Removal' Message-ID: <a3340g$5km$1@joe.rice.edu>   / Vladimir Woelfl (gandalf@palach.okri.hr) wrote: I : Why is anyway comp.sys.dec be removed? Or is that "admin@ateziod.ac.kr"l' : just somebody trying too play a joke?  :   G That is the act of a person known as HipCrime who believes in pursuing  ; his free speech liberty at the expense of every one else's.-  4 --Jerry Leslie     (my opinions are strictly my own)   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:07:14 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference@ Message-ID: <CM658.77264$%b.4678906@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  2 "JF Mezei" <jfmezei@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3C54F42B.BC53F1B1@videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:F > > So what?  We were talking about RTR and NonStop Tandem, which talk exactlyd3 > > the same kind of transactions I'm talking about9 >N" > I am looking at the big picture.  A No, you are not:  you're just ignorant of how that picture works.   *  From an ATM in the middle of australia toJ > your bank mainframe in the USA.  Your bank's mainframe cannot drive thatJ > machine in Australia because it doesn't know what type of machine it is, whatF > its keypad layout it is what software is loaded into it and onto itsK > controller etc. It is the australian bank's infrastructure will drive the5 ATM?J > and just send transaction data not to your bank, but to a network switchK > (PLUS/VISA, CIRRUS/MASTERCARD for instance). That network switch sends ity yourC > your bank's switch and that switch sends it to the ibm mainframe.  >cA > Consider the case of your bank sending a packet authorizing thed transaction.@ > But just after the packet was sent out on the X.25 line to the
 international2K > switch, your bank's switch goes down. The card network doesn't know abouto itL > and continues to forward the packet to the australian bank. The australianL > bank gets the authorisation and instructs the ATM to give the money to the > customer.  >aF > The problem is that the confirmation cannot make it way back to your bank's > mainframe.  A No, the problem is that you don't know what you're talking about.k  D  You bank's mainframe assumes that the ATM went down and cancels theJ > transaction (even though the money was handed over). (There are timeouts inA > the agreements after which one assumes the transaction failed).g  B No, there are not:  if you implement the system that way, it's not transactional.  H But it can be implemented properly, and I suspect that most such systemsL are - including situations in which one bank's ATM dispenses funds held in aI different bank, which can be treated as one, big, distributed transaction:F (even though they involved multiple otherwise independent databases inK multiple banks - in the case you describe, transactions solve the temporaryIG communication failure by leaving the status of the transaction at 'yourCI bank' in doubt until communication is reestablished and the message comes F through) or alternatively by multi-transaction mechanisms that include8 post-Commit actions that are retried until they succeed.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:24:45 GMTa? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson)s( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference. Message-ID: <3c5508f4.506858@news.demon.co.uk>   Ok, let me try again.-  ? I assume from your description that you're looking at an online C process in which a user reads a record, does some work based on the2D information that they read in that record, and then issues an update( which is to be reflected in that record.  C First, I assume that you don't want everything to suddenly seize upaD just because someone read a 'popular' record and then went to lunch?A (This is why it is generally considered badness to hold an atomics* transaction open across a user operation.)  A The traditional way to dealing with this is to use two completelyeD separate operations: one to read the original entry and return it to> the user.  At this point all locks are dropped (keep reading).   The user then does their work.  F Finally, they issue the second (update) operation.  This operates as a@ single atomic transaction. It includes in its data stream enoughD information for the system to verify that the record is still in its= original state.  The second operation then is a single atomicVD transaction that first re-acquires the original record, verifies its> status, and then does the update.  Failure to verify rolls the0 transaction back and sends an error to the user.  C This is how a lot of systems, including airline reservations, work.   ? If you are describing some other sort of application, please bea clearer.   Jim.  A On 27 Jan 2002 14:40:49 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)  wrote:  s >"Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<9SB48.43762$%b.2446633@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>... 8 >> "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message: >> news:d7791aa1.0201260602.32fe5e31@posting.google.com...: >> > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message? >> news:<9wu48.40254$%b.2050053@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...d >> aL >> > so how do you prevent, say a dibol executable posting to an rms file or >>  multipleJ >> > rms files from failing if a telnet or decnet over ip set host session	 >>  fails  >> > from a dsl line drop out? >> iK >> By using transactions (and resubmission on hardware fail-over), which is O >> what the preceding discussion was about.  If you don't use transactions, the,8 >> problem becomes a lot more general (and intractable). >> M: >>   I am working on this very problem, and rms journalingM >> > seems to be out because these accounting apps might chain to other execs  >>  andaJ >> > pass data thru core common ... the only approach I can think of is to
 >>  spawn theaL >> > posting processes and by using the dibol message manager have the batch >>  posting I >> > exec send a complete message back to the other when its done or send  >>  detailshN >> > of an error, if any ... any other ways to ensure a job completes during a >>  dsln >> > line drop?d >> lO >> In other words, implement a somewhat-transaction-like mechanism on your own.eO >> But unless you create the equivalent of a distributed multi-phase Commit (orrJ >> can make transaction duplication acceptable by making your transactionsE >> idempotent), you can still have failure modes that cause problems.f >>  	 >> - billJ >aM >rms journaling, rtr, transactions, is fine, I understand that, but this is atL >"single online interactive" transaction ... an rms record or records may beN >locked to prevent data corruption ... this is not batch, the integrity of theP >record being read in real time must be preserved until the change is posted ...K >if an online posting failed, and the rms lock on the record or records was K >released, you cannot have some app keep trying by rereading the previouslyIM >locked records and then post ... in the mean time, another user or app could O >have came along and modified the record, which makes that post then "corrupt"!-L >How does this relate to online interactive processing, which relies on the P >write which is based on the data on the screen at the time the record is lockedJ >completing before another subsequent read/write operation occurs?  Do youK >understand I am talking about a single online interactive real time write?1   Jim Johnsonb Software Exploration, Ltd.) (remove '.nospam' from the reply address)    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:34:58 GMT ? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson) ( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference/ Message-ID: <3c550b70.1143003@news.demon.co.uk>    JF,y  A I cannot emphasize enough that you really need to read Lampson atI* least, and almost certainly Gray & Reuter.  F You're describing an example of the Byzantine Generals problem.  Ayup,A the last message can always get lost.  And if it can get lost ands@ everything work, then it didn't need to be there.  But, the last# message can always get lost, so ...o  F Two phase commitment 'solves' this problem at some cost -- namely that2 there is an in-doubt period that may be unbounded.  F Now the system you are describing below is complex.  However, I assureB you that it is operated as a series of transactions and idempotentC operations right up to the ATM machine itself.  The error cases youu= describe are frankly trivial and fully and correctly handled.i   Jim.  C On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 01:48:14 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>i wrote:   >Bill Todd wrote:MM >> So what?  We were talking about RTR and NonStop Tandem, which talk exactly/3 >> the same kind of transactions I'm talking about - >-K >I am looking at the big picture. From an ATM in the middle of australia togI >your bank mainframe in the USA.  Your bank's mainframe cannot drive that N >machine in Australia because it doesn't know what type of machine it is, whatE >its keypad layout it is what software is loaded into it and onto its N >controller etc. It is the australian bank's infrastructure will drive the ATMI >and just send transaction data not to your bank, but to a network switchyO >(PLUS/VISA, CIRRUS/MASTERCARD for instance). That network switch sends it youruB >your bank's switch and that switch sends it to the ibm mainframe. >nM >Consider the case of your bank sending a packet authorizing the transaction.tM >But just after the packet was sent out on the X.25 line to the international M >switch, your bank's switch goes down. The card network doesn't know about iteK >and continues to forward the packet to the australian bank. The australiangK >bank gets the authorisation and instructs the ATM to give the money to the  >customer. g >cL >The problem is that the confirmation cannot make it way back to your bank'sO >mainframe. You bank's mainframe assumes that the ATM went down and cancels theaL >transaction (even though the money was handed over). (There are timeouts in@ >the agreements after which one assumes the transaction failed).   Jim Johnson- Software Exploration, Ltd.) (remove '.nospam' from the reply address)@   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 07:23:54 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201280723.40223070@posting.google.com>s  u Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson) wrote in message news:<3c5508f4.506858@news.demon.co.uk>...  > Ok, let me try again.  > A > I assume from your description that you're looking at an online-E > process in which a user reads a record, does some work based on theoF > information that they read in that record, and then issues an update* > which is to be reflected in that record. > E > First, I assume that you don't want everything to suddenly seize up F > just because someone read a 'popular' record and then went to lunch?C > (This is why it is generally considered badness to hold an atomicy, > transaction open across a user operation.) > C > The traditional way to dealing with this is to use two completelywF > separate operations: one to read the original entry and return it to@ > the user.  At this point all locks are dropped (keep reading). >   > The user then does their work. > H > Finally, they issue the second (update) operation.  This operates as aB > single atomic transaction. It includes in its data stream enoughF > information for the system to verify that the record is still in its? > original state.  The second operation then is a single atomic F > transaction that first re-acquires the original record, verifies its@ > status, and then does the update.  Failure to verify rolls the2 > transaction back and sends an error to the user. > E > This is how a lot of systems, including airline reservations, work.  > A > If you are describing some other sort of application, please be 
 > clearer. >  > Jim. >   J I don't worry about that person going to lunch, a status line lets anotherJ user who is locked out of that record see the name of the user that has itF locked, and after so many minutes by default, our dibol entry and menuJ routines time out back to the menu they entered from soo if they walk awayK it is no problem ... but the problem with your above scenario is timing ... G what if the original record was changed by another user/process betweenSG the time the lock was released and then reread again for update ... the I updates must occur in FIFO order ... I know a db like oracle has logic toe. handle this, but I must use rms ... what then?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:36:44 GMT ? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson) ( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference0 Message-ID: <3c556e6f.26485964@news.demon.co.uk>  E Traditionally, if the verification on re-read fails (i.e. the data inuB the original record has changed), the update transaction is rolled= back and the user given an error.  They can then re-enter the@ transaction.  E So, using RMS Journaling, what you'd have to do is to ensure that youiC have a copy of the record as you originally read it (either in someeE volatile server context or as some state that came back down from the ) client).  In the update request you'd do:e  
 	$START_TRANSl 	$GET of the original record  	compare it to the copy you hold
 	if different , 	{$ABORT_TRANS, return an error to the user} 	elsep8 	{$UPDATE with the changes, $END_TRANSW, return success}    D If you truly don't mind locks being held for minutes at a time, thenE go ahead and build it as one transaction.  RMS Journaling will ensuretC that the record, once read, is locked until transaction rollback oro> commit.  When you time out, issue an $ABORT_TRANSW to roll the= transaction back, and send error text to the user.  This willh7 certainly ensure serializability of the record updates.e   Jim.  A On 28 Jan 2002 07:23:54 -0800, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)i wrote:  v >Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson) wrote in message news:<3c5508f4.506858@news.demon.co.uk>... >> Ok, let me try again. >>  B >> I assume from your description that you're looking at an onlineF >> process in which a user reads a record, does some work based on theG >> information that they read in that record, and then issues an update,+ >> which is to be reflected in that record.  >> dF >> First, I assume that you don't want everything to suddenly seize upG >> just because someone read a 'popular' record and then went to lunch?eD >> (This is why it is generally considered badness to hold an atomic- >> transaction open across a user operation.)e >> ,D >> The traditional way to dealing with this is to use two completelyG >> separate operations: one to read the original entry and return it todA >> the user.  At this point all locks are dropped (keep reading).h >> t! >> The user then does their work.e >> sI >> Finally, they issue the second (update) operation.  This operates as aiC >> single atomic transaction. It includes in its data stream enough.G >> information for the system to verify that the record is still in itsu@ >> original state.  The second operation then is a single atomicG >> transaction that first re-acquires the original record, verifies itstA >> status, and then does the update.  Failure to verify rolls theh3 >> transaction back and sends an error to the user.r >>  F >> This is how a lot of systems, including airline reservations, work. >> hB >> If you are describing some other sort of application, please be >> clearer.l >> e >> Jim.  >> k >hK >I don't worry about that person going to lunch, a status line lets anothersK >user who is locked out of that record see the name of the user that has ithG >locked, and after so many minutes by default, our dibol entry and menueK >routines time out back to the menu they entered from soo if they walk awayiL >it is no problem ... but the problem with your above scenario is timing ...H >what if the original record was changed by another user/process betweenH >the time the lock was released and then reread again for update ... theJ >updates must occur in FIFO order ... I know a db like oracle has logic to/ >handle this, but I must use rms ... what then?o   Jim Johnsons Software Exploration, Ltd.) (remove '.nospam' from the reply address).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:05:00 -0500n% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>g( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference, Message-ID: <3C55769E.791CEE83@videotron.ca>   Jim Johnson wrote: >         $START_TRANS% >         $GET of the original recorde) >         compare it to the copy you hold  >         if different5 >         {$ABORT_TRANS, return an error to the user}  >         elseA >         {$UPDATE with the changes, $END_TRANSW, return success}s  L In the above example, what functionality does the $START_TRANS give you that) the standard RMS record locking doesn't ?5   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:00:08 GMT ? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson)h( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference0 Message-ID: <3c557df7.30462352@news.demon.co.uk>  A The ability for the actual code, as opposed to my brief notes, toFF involve multiple records in one or more files and have the updates all either happen or none happen.o  C If, OTOH, you can be absolutely certain that only one RMS record isoD ever involved in the processing, then, no, you don't need either RMS Journaling or DECdtm...    Jim.    C On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:05:00 -0500, JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>? wrote:   >Jim Johnson wrote:a >>         $START_TRANSt& >>         $GET of the original record* >>         compare it to the copy you hold >>         if differentr6 >>         {$ABORT_TRANS, return an error to the user} >>         elsesB >>         {$UPDATE with the changes, $END_TRANSW, return success} >oM >In the above example, what functionality does the $START_TRANS give you thato* >the standard RMS record locking doesn't ?   Jim Johnsono Software Exploration, Ltd.) (remove '.nospam' from the reply address)e   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:03:09 GMTu* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conferenceA Message-ID: <xng58.80807$vH6.4388904@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>o  L "Jim Johnson" <Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com> wrote in message) news:3c550b70.1143003@news.demon.co.uk...d   ...s  H > Two phase commitment 'solves' this problem at some cost -- namely that4 > there is an in-doubt period that may be unbounded.  C And, of course, there are ways to mitigate even that risk when it'seC necessary to do so.  Unbounded comm failures can be avoided throughp; appropriate levels of interconnection redundancy, unboundediL commit-coordinator failures by having a fail-overable Commit mechanism, etc.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 10:13:52 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201281013.47bed89@posting.google.com>  w Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson) wrote in message news:<3c556e6f.26485964@news.demon.co.uk>... G > Traditionally, if the verification on re-read fails (i.e. the data incD > the original record has changed), the update transaction is rolled? > back and the user given an error.  They can then re-enter the: > transaction. > G > So, using RMS Journaling, what you'd have to do is to ensure that youmE > have a copy of the record as you originally read it (either in some>G > volatile server context or as some state that came back down from thel+ > client).  In the update request you'd do:  >  > 	$START_TRANSs > 	$GET of the original record" > 	compare it to the copy you hold > 	if different . > 	{$ABORT_TRANS, return an error to the user} > 	else,: > 	{$UPDATE with the changes, $END_TRANSW, return success} >  > F > If you truly don't mind locks being held for minutes at a time, thenG > go ahead and build it as one transaction.  RMS Journaling will ensure E > that the record, once read, is locked until transaction rollback orh@ > commit.  When you time out, issue an $ABORT_TRANSW to roll the? > transaction back, and send error text to the user.  This willc9 > certainly ensure serializability of the record updates.w >  > Jim. >   J are you sure that is how it works in airlines and banking ... I don't everG remember getting an error back that stated the record has changed sinceyO your last read access and you must try again ... that would be very inefficent!tO A user should only have to enter the update once and it take effect ... I don'to understand what you mean ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:28:20 -0500n% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> ( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference, Message-ID: <3C55983E.98087A01@videotron.ca>   Bob Ceculski wrote:nL > are you sure that is how it works in airlines and banking ... I don't everI > remember getting an error back that stated the record has changed sincet3 > your last read access and you must try again ... u     airline:M you call airline and ask about Concorde seat today between JFK ahd LHR. AgentaK makes request for seat availability on that flight and computer shows thereoL are still a couple of seats available. She quotes you a price and you acceptH and she proceeds to take down your personal information, then submit theI record for confirmation.  If, during the time she took down your personallN information, the remaining seats were conformed to other people, then when sheK submits your reservation for confirmation it will fail because there are now seats left.w   bank:rM while you show up at a bank teller to request some financial transaction, thebN teller gives you your balance and proceeds with the paperwork. Meanwhile, yourM wife goes to an ATM and takes a big wad of money out.  By the time the tellerpG is done with her paperwork and punches the stuff into the computer, the 7 transaction will have failed due to insufficient funds.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:23:16 +0100t9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> ( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference' Message-ID: <3C559714.D46FF843@aaa.com>h  ; You would only get this error if some *other* user had been 8 changing *the very same record* at the same time as it's= beeing processed at one place, may it be a ticket, a seat, ort	 whatever.n  4 Would take the same person reserving the same ticket2 at two places at the same time. Highly unlikely, I/ would say, but that wasn't the point, was it...i  3 And I don't think it's so uncommon to do like this.    Jan-Erik Sderholm.r   Bob Ceculski wrote:u >  > L > are you sure that is how it works in airlines and banking ... I don't everI > remember getting an error back that stated the record has changed sincebQ > your last read access and you must try again ... that would be very inefficent! Q > A user should only have to enter the update once and it take effect ... I don'to > understand what you mean ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 13:43:41 -0500e% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>e( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference, Message-ID: <3C559BD5.61659D88@videotron.ca>   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:d > = > You would only get this error if some *other* user had beenh: > changing *the very same record* at the same time as it's? > beeing processed at one place, may it be a ticket, a seat, ore > whatever.a  F When you book a flight, it is not only your reservation record that isN modified, but also the fligh'ts inventory of available seats in the particular& booking class applicable to your fare.  D And the flight's inventory gets constant updates both from passengerM reservations and the airline itself which will adjust the inventory accordingaF to demand, seat sales etc. Some airlines such as AA have sophisticatedJ programs that analyse the inventory fo seats on each flight and adjust theJ number of available seats for various booking classes (fares) depending on0 many variables and past history for that flight.  L Similarly, fares are also constantly adjusted on a real time basis. Prior toN e-tickets, I had an intesting experience once. I booked a flight over the net,M called the airline to confirm the fare (the on-line systems were never reallytM good at quoting the right taxes in canadaian dollars). Then hopped on my bikedH for the 15 minute ride to airport to pickup my ticket. By the time I got, there, the fare had changed by $25 (higher).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:56:43 +0100a9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>.( Subject: Re: Compaq financial conference' Message-ID: <3C559EEB.1B0B0D67@aaa.com>   # OK, my example was a bit to simple.e  * Never the less, it's a common way of doing( things so you don't have to put locks on* "hot spots" in your database for too long.  8 And in the case as you describe, I think that the system: should put a "temporalily reserved" flag on the seat while9 the customer is "thinking". This way the seat couldn't bet9 offered to another customer at the same time. This is noti: a "lock" on the database level, the applications must take9 care of the actual logic. There's a lot more to say abouti8 this issue, you must make sure that this "flag" can't be? set for too long (a couple of minutes or whatever) for example.i     Jan-Erik Sderholm.i   PS.d1 JF, If you'd never turned your computer on in thed/ first place to book that ticket, but had hoppede3 on your bike right away to book the ticket on-site,c you may have saved $25, not :-)t DS.s       JF Mezei wrote:e >  > N > Similarly, fares are also constantly adjusted on a real time basis. Prior toP > e-tickets, I had an intesting experience once. I booked a flight over the net,O > called the airline to confirm the fare (the on-line systems were never reallytO > good at quoting the right taxes in canadaian dollars). Then hopped on my bikeyJ > for the 15 minute ride to airport to pickup my ticket. By the time I got. > there, the fare had changed by $25 (higher).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:48:13 -0500f+ From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@intel.com>.Y Subject: Re: compiler group (was: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses   allcredibi 8 Message-ID: <mnoa5u8daodqk2hk8a6jab8vlsej91vvbc@4ax.com>  E On 26 Jan 2002 21:51:03 GMT, dashw459@aol.comeatspam (Doug W.) wrote:i   >Steve Lionel wrote: >-F ><< For OpenVMS IA64, Intel and Compaq are jointly developing compilerG >products and these would continue to have new releases as scheduled byf >Compaq. >>. >oI >Hopefully Intel and Compaq will agree on the priority for a new compilernP >feature.  For example, would both Intel and Compaq place equal priority on NUMA >aware compilers?   E Given that customers seem to have near zero interest in NUMA as it isaE - we've had a NUMA-aware compiler for about a year now but can't evenhE get anyone interested in trying it (this is on Tru64 UNIX) - this mayo be a bad example.   @ The way it works, as I understand it, is that Compaq defines the= capabilities it wants in its products.  Compaq will have somesC engineers doing compiler work, but if they want Intel to do some ofuB the work,Compaq and Intel negotiate on the work to be done and theD cost.  I'm fuzzy on the details here, since it isn't something I get involved in.  A So in cases like these, Intel serves as a contactor to Compaq for F development, and as Compaq is "the client", Compaq gets to decide whatD the priority is.  Of course, Compaq needs to keep in mind, as it hasB in the past, what resources are available and to make tradeoffs as needed.  This is nothing new.        Steve Lionel Compaq Fortran Engineering Intel Corporatione
 Nashua, NH  . Compaq Fortran - http://www.compaq.com/fortranK Intel Fortran - http://developer.intel.com/software/products/compilers/f50/    ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 07:44:23 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: copy subdirectory3 Message-ID: <fdCugcvnqL5n@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  c In article <k65ctkWg8519@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:ey > In article <01KDKMT276SA8ZIVW3@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:u( >>> 	$ DEFINE/USER SOURCE _ddcu:[DIR_A.]( >>> 	$ DEFINE/USER TARGET _ddcu:[DIR_B.]) >>> 	$ BACKUP SOURCE:[*...] TARGET:[*...]m >>> M >>> is approximately what I use, with your device name substituted for _ddcu.hG >>> I have not tested the above, and there may be something easier withp >>> newer versions of VMS. >> .I >> Note that COPY has been able to do [...] for a LONG time now; no need   >> for BACKUP. > F > I had private email from somebody yesterday who had problems because# > COPY will not create directories.a  G I tend to use BACKUP rather than COPY for directory tree copies because > of problems in that vein.  I just checked.  COPY will create aB hierarchy of subdirectories for the target directory tree.  But it@ will not create the top level directory in the target tree if it does not already exist.    e.g.  ! $ COPY [.SOURCE...]*.* [.DEST...]     will not create DEST.DIR.  # $ BACKUP [.SOURCE...]*.* [.DEST...]c    will create []DEST.DIRi  J >> Note that COPY and BACKUP have different policies regarding timestamps. >  > Please elaborate.   C BACKUP preserves timestamps.  Except for the BACKUP date timestamp,f5 of course -- which is affected by the /RECORD switch.   A COPY puts the current time on the CREATED and MODIFIED timestamp, B zeroes the BACKUP date and sets the EXPIRATION timestamp according to volume policy.o  K >> Neither with BACKUP nor with COPY is it NECESSARY to use logicals (just c. >> trying to avoid confusing the newbie here). > L > I was not confident of a proper command string for BACKUP without testing. > Perhaps you can provide one.   For the case you gave:  ( >>> 	$ DEFINE/USER SOURCE _ddcu:[DIR_A.]( >>> 	$ DEFINE/USER TARGET _ddcu:[DIR_B.]) >>> 	$ BACKUP SOURCE:[*...] TARGET:[*...]0  ! the appropriate command would be:o  * $ BACKUP _ddcu:[DIR_A...] _ddcu:[DIR_B...]   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:20:17 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>i Subject: Re: copy subdirectory; Message-ID: <01KDLXSVYCMW8ZJH7N@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>w  C > COPY puts the current time on the CREATED and MODIFIED timestamp,n  D Unless a wildcard is specified instead of the output file.  In this F case, the creation date (but not the modified date) from the original 
 file is kept.   D > zeroes the BACKUP date and sets the EXPIRATION timestamp according > to volume policy.s   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 06:16:31 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)l+ Subject: Re: Cross Compiler to SUN/Solaris?p3 Message-ID: <oQPiTllQj06W@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  U In article <3C54DAA4.A199BB38@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:>L > So, if I understand you well, and it seems easy, my new question would be: > N > Solaris equivalences to the RTL routines? (and SS calls, and SMG and and...)  J Highly unlikely, since Solaris is C-centric rather than using descriptors.H Unless some third party specifically markets a VMS emulation package forG Solaris (as distinguished from VAX or Alpha emulation), they are betterr off to stick with VMS.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 08:24:15 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)>+ Subject: Re: Cross Compiler to SUN/Solaris?i3 Message-ID: <$zcs8IFSGyhX@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  T In article <3C54784B.3E4B92C@gmx.ch>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@gmx.ch> writes:J > I have a Customer who would like to know if there is a cross compiler toO > translate VMS Fortran (77 and 90), Cobol, Basic and Pascal sources to compilee > under SUN/SOLARIS. >   =    Sun will tell you their Fortran 77 compiler is VAX-Fortran C    compatable.  For all these languages you're customer is going toe    have two issues:   D    1)  how many DEC extensions to the language standard are actually       used?nB    2)  are those the extensions Sun included for "VAX compatable"?  C    The other part you may need is the VMS libraries and functions.  B    These are commercially available from Sector7, Boston BussinessC    Computing, or Acceler8.  Those companies also sell tools to helpv"    you deal with the above issues.    -   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 07:30:54 -0700m3 From: "David D Miller" <ddmiller@west.raytheon.com>a+ Subject: Re: Cross Compiler to SUN/Solaris?.F Message-ID: <OF068EBAC1.AB80A574-ON07256B4F.004F961D@rsc.raytheon.com>   Didier:T  H You might try http://www.fortran.com.  I don't know if everything you n= eedf0 is there but you may find something you can use.   dave.         H I have a Customer who would like to know if there is a cross compiler t= oeE translate VMS Fortran (77 and 90), Cobol, Basic and Pascal sources tog compileh under SUN/SOLARIS.   Thanks,k   D. --H   ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - E MORANDI Consulting.  WEB: http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr/index_us.htmljE Pflanzschulstrasse 53, 8004 Zurich, Switzerland. GSM: +41 79 705 4670w/ 19, chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.,  H Disaster Recovery Plans, Computer Security Audits, DEC OpenVMS Expertis= eeH On parle fran=E7ais Man spricht Deutsch se habla Castellano English spo= ken    =s   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:24:13 -0800n' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>o+ Subject: Re: Cross Compiler to SUN/Solaris?8+ Message-ID: <3C557B2D.ADA6A0B5@caltech.edu>i   Didier Morandi wrote:J > J > I have a Customer who would like to know if there is a cross compiler toO > translate VMS Fortran (77 and 90), Cobol, Basic and Pascal sources to compile  > under SUN/SOLARIS.  N I've recently ported about 50 fortran programs from VMS to Solaris.  The ForteJ fortran compiler was generally happy with them.  There were a few platform specificM differences that bit me but they were not terribly difficult to work around.   (Mostly H changes to OPEN statements and some differences in how binary files were handled.) I think-O that I changed about 5 lines per 1000 lines of code (rough estimate).  However,eJ if your code uses RMS (indexed files and such) you're also going to need a library4I to support that.  And the byte order is changed, so if you've got any bit-	 twiddling.. programs be prepared to recode those sections.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:39:28 -0500 . From: Curtis Williams <williamsca@process.com>- Subject: Re: DHCP as a client using Multinet?r* Message-ID: <3C555490.1050306@process.com>   William Barnett-Lewis wrote:F > I'm probably missing something obvious, if so please point me at the$ > right place in the documentation.  > I > I have a router that provides a DHCP server and I would like to have my-F > Vaxstation get it's IP from that. I have installed Multinet and it'sG > PAK. I am not able to find in the documentation how to set it up as a.I > DHCP client. Again, if this is an FAQ, a pointer in the right directionn > is appreciated.     F MultiNet 4.4 will include a DHCP client.  The CDs are currently being E manufactured and should be shipping soon to customers with a current   support contract.        -- h  %   Curtis Williams, Senior QA Engineerd   Process Software   959 Concord Street   Framingham, MA 01701/   Phone: 508-879-6994 x308    Fax: 508-879-0042h   USPA D-210763   "Computer, you and I need to have a little talk."o%     -- Miles O'Brien, Deep Space Nineo   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 03:43:27 -0800. From: PeterMoreton@hotmail.com (Peter Moreton)0 Subject: Export Monitor Data to CSV file, Excel?= Message-ID: <c1243f29.0201280343.546f17e8@posting.google.com>O   Hi,S  C I am looking for a way to get OpenVMS 6.2 Monitor data into a Comma B Seperated file, for import into Excel. There have been a couple ofE posts about this in the past, and a Compaq utility called "T4" soundseC promising - except that I cannot find it anywhere! Does anyone knowe+ where T4 or a similar utility can be found?    Thanks,W  
 Peter Moreton  Principle Technology Ltd   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 08:33:12 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 4 Subject: Re: Export Monitor Data to CSV file, Excel?3 Message-ID: <fB+g17v3YyRs@eisner.encompasserve.org>v  n In article <c1243f29.0201280343.546f17e8@posting.google.com>, PeterMoreton@hotmail.com (Peter Moreton) writes: > Hi,n > E > I am looking for a way to get OpenVMS 6.2 Monitor data into a CommauD > Seperated file, for import into Excel. There have been a couple ofG > posts about this in the past, and a Compaq utility called "T4" sounds0E > promising - except that I cannot find it anywhere! Does anyone knowc- > where T4 or a similar utility can be found?v  H    The file formats are fully documented in the System Manager's Utility9    Refererence Manual.  Appendix H in the version I have.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:28:15 GMTa' From: Rick Dyson <Rick-Dyson@UIowa.EDU>i4 Subject: Re: Export Monitor Data to CSV file, Excel?) Message-ID: <3C558A2F.9E39ECB7@UIowa.EDU>u   Peter Moreton wrote: >  > Hi,l > E > I am looking for a way to get OpenVMS 6.2 Monitor data into a CommaqD > Seperated file, for import into Excel. There have been a couple ofG > posts about this in the past, and a Compaq utility called "T4" soundsgE > promising - except that I cannot find it anywhere! Does anyone knows- > where T4 or a similar utility can be found?   A 	T4 is internal to Compaq.  Hoff was going to look into it for meaL long ago.  I ready about it in old OpenVMS Times articles about how great itB was, etc. but it has apparently never made it out into the wild...   rick   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 08:10:56 -0800 From: maiau@mbox.com.au (Mike)< Subject: FS[UK]: Compaq OpenVMS Alpha V7.2 Update CD-ROM Kit= Message-ID: <443f57fa.0201280810.5c2233a1@posting.google.com>   , Compaq OpenVMS Alpha V7.2 Update CD-ROM Kit.  " New, sealed. Unused and un-needed!  # Compaq Part Number: QA-MT1AA-W8 7.2?   Would prefer UK buyerc   50u   ------------------------------    Date: 27 Jan 2002 23:14:33 -0800+ From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)fD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!= Message-ID: <e565ed03.0201272314.5b5c6237@posting.google.com>c  ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3C5333A3.A187C291@fsi.net>...< > You might want to read this entire post before responding.  
 	Done that...   . > "David L. Cathey" wrote: > > d > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3C5227A6.C2B83D98@fsi.net>...K > > > I snipped the rest of it because we're just going to have to agree toaG > > > disagree on those points. You're so deeply entrenched in your ownaH > > > position that you'll never be open enough to see the world from myL > > > perspective. So, I'll have to chalk that up as another case where whatN > > > I'm doing isn't getting the right result, so change my approach - exceptK > > > I'm convinced that there just is no "right" approach at this point in: > > > time.c > > Q > >         I'm just trying to make sure the difference between "unaffordable" isdC > > you, or the industry in general.  Where are you drawing general  > > conditionsI > > from your specific case.  When it comes to "CSA is unaffordable", you,
 > > acceptG > > that statement as a fact, but it appears to be based solely on yourn > > personal > > situation. > J > CSA is what would interest me - but only if the end-user base could also( > have a suitably "affordable" solution.  O Okay, then since you believe that the end-user base finds OpenVMS unaffordable,tM why would you be interested in it?  Why do you believe you could sell productn in that space?  B > I'm guessing you've not had to do a budget and/or get a purchaseJ > approved in a very long time. Maybe you need some recent experience withJ > bean counters and "His Excellency, The Royal-High Excheqeur". You'd soonI > learn a whole new perspective on what "affordable" means... (...and no, > > it's not the "dollar amount" you so desperately wish for...)  M Worked on a bid just last couple of months that passed BoD approval just last * month, so I've been through the processes.   > > > "David L. Cathey" wrote: > > > >iO > > > > You're still not answering the question.  If I could provide an OpenVMS P > > > > system with a couple Gig's of disk and some basic software licenses, how > > > > much could you afford? > > >,I > > > I'm going to have to make some brash assumptions here - getting theaM > > > details out of you would take too long and maintain too much noise hereB > > > in the ng. > > >yN > > > I'll assume you're talking about a subscription to a timesharing serviceF > > > or it's equivalent, including access to compilers, SDKs, etc. as$ > > > available on your setup there. > > I > > Sure.  If $1000/year is steep, why bother suggesting a lease on a new 	 > > DS10.  > C > Do you understand the difference between an expense and a capitalo > acquisition? 'Nuff said?  N Absolutely, which is why I'm not going to make a $10K capital acquisition whenJ you aren't going to be able to expense enough for me to even cover a lease price on the system.  9 > > > > You never really want to say free, but can't seemeS > > > > to tell me what level above that would satisfy you, either.  No matter whatcA > > > > cost I place on this, you'll still claim "Unaffordable!".e > > >uM > > > Careful about jumping to conclusions, reading in what isn't there, etc.tM > > > I snipped a prime example of that latter point, so I'll not retrieve ita
 > > > now. > > G > > I'm looking for a $$$ figure here, to see if it's even worth takingb > > thelD > > time to generate a quote here.  Just a ballpark figure.  I'm not > > jumpingeH > > to conclusions, since so far all I've gotten as a price reference is. > > "$1M glass of water" and "pound of flesh". > > 5 > > > > I can't give it to you for less than my cost., > > >rK > > > If you can itemize your costs, I'd offer you cost + 20% as a starting,K > > > point in negotiations, with the stipulation that I start getting someuN > > > respect. You can't know where I'm at unless you've been where I've been.H > > > I've been more than patient and I've swallowed a lot of undeservedK > > > insults. Had that not happened, I'd probably have offered a full 100%L > > > mark up. > > I > > Just so you at least don't generalize on the industry just because oft > > your position. t > J > Remember - *YOU* are the one making that claim. *I* never did, and never > will.  > I > ...and "my position" is that of needing to consider what my prospectiveoI > customers can budget for (read: "afford") and cost-justify, in light ofeF > the alternatives. It's that "in light of the alternatives" part thatI > seems to stymie everyone at/surround Compaq/OpenVMS. (Yeah, I'll regretoH > saying that - I can hear your retort already. Same tired rhetoric that+ > everyone else keeps parroting, I'm sure.)   M Let's assume they can't pay much.  They need a truck.  They don't want to paylL for a Mack Truck, even though it would be more reliable, easier to maintain,I and less prone to damage from external environmental effects (i.e. hail).oL So they buy an Isuzu.  The obvious solution is for Mack to slash the cost ofI their trucks to the lowest common denomintor, without sacrificing qualitye somehow, ... yeah right...  K Unfortunately, Compaq is not in the business of making the cheapest O/S outeH there.  I doubt they have any interest in setting a cost structure whichN is always compared and adjusted to track the cost of the comparative MicrosoftH software.  Again, they are not competing with Microsoft, but places likeK IBM and Sun.  Compaq can't compete solely on a price basis, since MicrosoftsK could always undercut them - you might as well face that fact and live with8N it.  It's so important, I'll repeat it - COMPAQ CAN NEVER MAKE OPENVMS CHEAPER* THAN MICROSOFT CAN MAKE WINDOWS(whatever).  G What the OpenVMS group is doing is making the best, most reliable, mostiN dependable O/S out there, with the possible exception of Tandem.  They are notO trying to build a Rolls Royce with a Yugo price tag.  Microsoft can't even make L a Rolls Royce with a Yugo price tag, and the slew of CERT advisories and theB recent Gartner report that you should avoid IIS demonstrates that.  I When you talk to that "Royal-High Excheqeur", joke about having to reboot E PC's.  He'll probably help you out.  Then talk about the cost of thatpL reboot.  Let him talk about his corrupted disk drive, lost files, lost time.K Then talk about alternatives to Microsoft.  I have people listen.  They getrK interested.  And maybe they don't decide to buy one then, but at least theyoG know about it.  And the next purchase they may talk a little more.  And M eventually, they'll buy it.  It's the same strategy that IBM uses to go afterrH accounts, they keep gently pushing, and pushing, and pushing, until they make the sale.  F But if you start saying that Compaq is killing OpenVMS, Alpha is dead,G Compaq doesn't keep commitments (basically about everything you've saidKM here in this newsgroup) - your chances drop substantially.  Worse yet, you've N tainted the next sale for the next consultant, VAR, ISV, OEM that comes along.  6 > > I'm not looking for markup (20% would be fine).  I > > justI > > want to know if you're really in the market, or am I wasting my time.  > J > Um - I'd be careful about using that "am I wasting my time" crack aroundD > someone who is already over threshold. Then again, you don't value- > either me or my opinions; so, flame away...A  M Pat J told me he's let you log into one of his boxes for ~$25/month.  This is E probably for just you, not an open invitation for everyone.  Also, nonF privileges (just TMPMBX/NETMBX) since it's not a box dedicated to you.& If you're interested, drop him a line.  FJ > Clearly, there is nothing I can say to make that point. Until you get itA > through your head that developers and ISVs aren't the issue anddI > end-users are, and remember I'm talking about a much different class ofoD > end-user than the deep-pocketed exception - y'know, the people whoD > raised VMS to the pinnacle of its status back in the "glory days",H > you're not going to understand, or even make the effort - an example I> > fully expect Compaq will follow, ill-advised as that may be.  N But they are part of the issue.  A business is not going to rationalize makingJ an OpenVMS purchase unless the desired/critical application is on OpenVMS.L I simply can't sell an OpenVMS solution to ANYONE that requires it run AdobeN PhotoShop.  It's just not there.  I can sell an iMac or a Windows box, though.  L Back in the glory days, most shops wrote many of their own applications, hadI their own system support staff, and were more likely to be single-vendor.<I The glory days are dead and gone.  They aren't coming back.  Applications M tend to be more shrink-wrapped, tools and middleware are mainstream, and more > things are out-sourced, and there are more turn-key solutions.  K The reason the VMS pinnacle fell is because the computer industry landscapenJ changed, the O/S was no longer the comodity, systems matured and no longerO needed dedicated support staff, and systems became too complex and environmentst
 more diverse.i  M OpenVMS systems have never been cheaper than they are today.  Hardware can be0M had for the cost of a road-trip.  OpenVMS base licenses aren't completely outoM of line compared to the cooresponding Windows Server license - and M$ chargescJ extra dollars for every additional client which can sway the cost in favor@ of OpenVMS.  Cost and availability of systems isn't the problem.  M OpenVMS can't be sold as the solution anymore.  It has to sold as part of thetM solution.  The industry is not that same as it was, so to dream of the returno  of past glory days is fruitless.   J I understand what you're saying, but the reason I'm not going to try to goE back to the glory days, is because everything else has moved forward.y  J > The business plan you keep begging for is this (since it seems you can'tH > figure it out on your own): find a market that can afford your productF > and that is large enough to cost-justify the effort/expense. No such/ > market currently exists due to VMS's pricing.s  G Is this a blanket statement?  *No* such market exists?  Or are you just-D not able to locate this product/market combination yourself and with your customers?d  J One of the products I've been involved with in the last couple of years isJ ConsoleWorks.  It's done well in the OpenVMS industry, and others as well.O You might have seen it, since a version of it comes with every GS-series Alpha.eF This product is an actual example of such a product.  A market exists.  H Regardless of your target market, that is always going to be a risk.  DoH you have a product that has a sufficient demand SOMEWHERE to justify theJ effort and expense.  I'd venture to say that there is ALWAYS a market, the  trick is identifing the product.  M At least in the Microsoft world, you really know when you've got a great idea_P for a product - when Microsoft writes a look-alike and runs you out of business.( At least Compaq isn't likely to do that.  I > The price of the CSA is not now and never has been the issue. The issuer< > is justifying the effort and expense of doing the port(s). >  > Get it *NOW*???!!!  H Yes, you haven't identified a saleable product, and therefore think thatI no product (and by extension, market) exists.  I strongly believe you areeC wrong, since I've been actively involved in exactly such a product.iJ However, since you can't justify the effort and expense of doing a product5 or a port, there is no point in you investing in CSA.n   > > but there are severall > > independentlI > > truckers on the road that own one - they've made the investment sincef	 > > theirSI > > jobs requires it.  That doesn't make them "unaffordable" or cause thew > > rest oft= > > the industry to believe that they are somehow overpriced.b > D > Well, actually yes it does, but I've learned that I can't win that > argument.e  D Because the fact that it is sold pretty much demonstrates that it is affordable?   F > > But you don't start out that way, David.  You just state that it's > > unaffordable.u> > > No disclaimer, no qualifiers, no if's and's or buts - just > > unaffordable., >  > Cogito, ergo disclamo. > I > I'll go ahead and get the legalese typed up, and I'll paste it in aftera6 > every sentence, since that's what you seem to need.   L If you keep writing statements like "OpenVMS is unaffordable", it would seem to be a prudent thing to do.    H > > Until I seriously questioned that, you kept stating that like it was
 > > an axoim.- > ' > No, you made an unfounded assumption.g  B Gee, David, just a couple of posts ago, when I paraphrased you as:B "The CSA Program is unaffordable", you cried out in glee that I'd I finally gotten it right - what possible other assumption is realisticallyl open?n  2 > > > Then whose "fault" is it? Who set the price? > > H > > It's not a "fault".  It's the way it is.  The price is set to offset
 > > the costseG > > of paying the fabricators, designers, programmers, and other people 
 > > that needr9 > > to get paid - or else the product wouldn't get made. u > C > Which brings us to another concept that I seem to be the only oneiA > capable of grasping: the difference between volume and margin.   > D > There are *MANY* ways to make a profit, not just one. Get over it.  I You're right - but reducing your price does not guarantee coorespondinglyMC higher volume.  There's a bell-curve factor here where dropping theaA price only works in some proportion to demand. A 50% reduction ineI OpenVMS's software price is not going to result in a 100% jump in demand.cI The trick is to find the "knee" in the bell curve where that's a maximum.rF For some reason, and based on a few people in your poll, you think youL know where that curve is better than Compaq.  Why is your poll statistically significant?  2 > > Why does someone need to be "blamed" for this? > I > Ask that same question again when the Enron inquiries are over, or when  > VMS finally dies...   J First you assert Osama's tactics should be followed in Houston, now you'reI comparing Compaq to Enron.  Am I the only one that thinks this extremeisme is a little, well, extreme?o  G > > This industry is no different than any other.  If you want to play,r
 > > there areaI > > investments of some kind that have to be made.  Mechanics have to buya	 > > theireD > > own tools, messengers buy their own vehicles, CPA's have to take
 > > annual) > > training classes, ... should I go on?  > C > Yes - until you get to the meat of the matter: if pricing doesn't I > support the product (tools, training, housing, clothes, food, etc.) and G > *SIGNIFICANT* (almost forgot to insert that, subjective as it may be)tG > growth in the product's market, then margins will remain difficult tomI > maintain (a key issue in yesterday's webcast) and volumes will continueeJ > to suffer, and business will remain vulnerable to fluctuations in volumeH > that could otherwise be tolerated with some difficulty, or even easily > survived.e  J Tell that to Sun and Cisco - who's having lots of fun trying to sell theirK boxes since their market has significantly dried up, and lots of relatively M new hardware being sold at pennies on the dollar second hand.  You have to be M very careful about SIGNIFICANT growth in any market, since at some point thatm  market may collapse or saturate.  I OpenVMS is growing about 8%/year (as told from one of my favorite OpenVMS M Ambassadors), which is a very comfortable and manageable growth rates.  WhileoO other vendors (even the Compaq PC business) is suffering slowing sales, OpenVMSu is still there making inroads.  W > > > > Isn't irony fun - I just got off the phone with someone who would be interested:P > > > > in buying a development system just like the $10K system I quoted above. > > >tJ > > > Then I guess all these posts aren't so bad after all! You just got aK > > > prospect! Had we not been discussing such systems, you would probablynL > > > have thought of it eventually anyway, but aren't you glad it was fresh > > > in your mind?- > > I > > It does more than that - and directly related to this topic:  OpenVMSD > > is > > affordable,  > , > Who's making the "blanket statements" now?  L It's not a blanket statement.  Compare with "unobtainable" and "obtainable".G Unobtainable means that it's impossible to obtain, anywhere for anyone..I Obtainable means that it can be had - doesn't mean everyone will, but if o+ they do want it, it is able to be acquired.h  & > > people are still interested in it  >  > There's another one!  J Just proves that your statement of "No market exists" from above is false.I A market does, in fact, exist.  Whether you are actively involved in thato market is not material.t  H > ...and when pressed for evidence, you can't (or won't ) cite any. DoesD > the word "credibility" mean anything to you? You are accorded moreD > credibility than I by token of your long standing association withE > Digital and it products. Unproven/unprovable statements strain thats > credibility.  L From your statements, you seem bitter toward Compaq, and previously Digital,H that your "OpenVMS Professional Career" is suffering, and you are havingG a hard time finding a job in corporate America where you can sit and doy OpenVMS things all the time.    L It's almost like you have a personal vendetta against them, that they are to? blame and must be held accountable directly to you, personally.o  L That's why you make comments like "There is no market" despite examples thatK markets exist.  That's why you make comments like "OpenVMS is unaffordable"tL when customers are stilling buying it.  At least in my eyes, this hurts your credibility.  I But Compaq does runs Diamond forums around the world for business leadersvJ (CEO/CIO/CFO/CTO level) about OpenVMS advantages.  OpenVMS Ambassadors areI there to help provide a wide variety of pre/post sales support for CompaqcJ and Channels sales.  Even the investment in DFWDays for the last two years is part of the process.m  K You say there's more than one way to make a profit, well, there's more thanrH one way to market a product, too.  Just because you don't see an OpenVMSA ad during the Superbowl doesn't mean that there isn't work afoot.D  J > ...though perhaps only in my eyes. Clearly, some other posters take whatA > you and others post/report re: VMS as Gospel and not subject toG > question.a  J Talk to your local OpenVMS Ambassador.  *Listen* for a while.  Don't startO arguing about "unafforable", "no markets", and such - this will likely only get M you ignored.  This may not directly benefit your OpenVMS Professional Career. H But then again, if you listen carefully, you may identify a product ideaI which can be exploited, or of a job opportunity which needs filling (i.e.pH just because it's not listed at dice.com doesn't mean it doesn't exist).  M For instance, security is a hot topic.  Look at my OpenSSL session from CETS. = Identify an application that could benefit from from SSL/TLS.a  a > > and calling even smallG > > shops about it, and the investments I've made in my business helpeds > > them% > > find me to talk to them about it.e > > C > > Which is counter to about everything you've been saying in thise > > thread.n > E > How so? Nothing here or in the past supports that statement. (Hint:u: > You've demonstrated a propensity for brash assumptions.)  F Actually, it's easy to support.  You start with a negative propositionH (i.e. No such market exists).  This is easily countered by demonstratingE a single example.  Or two - look at SyntheSys(sp?), who were at CETS.   @ > I'm arguing about the affordability (I realize you don't/won'tE > understand that term - whatever) of VMS to end-users, while you andt > others keep harping on CSA.   A Well, that's probably because you stated that the CSA program wasc: unaffordable.  Of course we should harp on something else?   9 > What would it take for you to grasp the larger picture?,  F Perhaps because I think the "larger picture" is larger than you think.A And has far more variables and factors than you seem to trying totA coalese into a single factor which seems to be the center of youru arguments - "affordable".e  eA > So, I'll be quitting this thread at this point, leaving anothernF > stalemate. We'll never agree here, anymore than a market/demand willG > magically appear for VMS applications that don't currently exist, norr? > are they likely to so long as alternatives to VMS remain more  > competitive.  K It's sad that you feel there is no market for new OpenVMS applications.  AtaH this point, I would be highly surprised if you became a Compaq Solutions6 Alliance member.  After all, what would be your point?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 06:41:17 -0500"+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>rD Subject: RE: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1BF4@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   JF -  E >>> build on (since there are fewer applications available to it).<<<   F mmm.. actually, since many major ISV's are now developing (or at leastA planning to develop) on Java, the number of applications that arecF becoming available on OpenVMS is actually beginning to increase again.  E Reference these two eBusiness applications which recently have becomeh certified to run on OpenVMS: http://www.imsure.com=20 http://www.dataglider.comt  C So, run latest applications with all the stability and availabilityhE features of OpenVMS and not have to be worried about the latest 32bita  based virus and hacker attempts.   Not a bad story ..   Regardse    
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantt Compaq Canada Corp.e Professional Serviceso Voice: 613-592-4660l Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----, From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei@videotron.ca] Sent: January 26, 2002 3:35 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComCD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!     "David L. Cathey" wrote:H > OpenVMS wins when you can demonstrate to the customer that the TCO for theo* > system far outweighs the 1-time cost.=20  E *AND* convince the customer that VMS is a viable solution despite the  lack ofh? visibiliy and public commitment  by Compaq, especially now thatt
 Compaq/HP are A saying they will consolidate into industry standard soliution anda de-emphasize proprietary ones.o    F More mature IT managers will realise that VMS will be available for at least 5fG years and that an investment in a VMS based application might still pay  off.C But they would not plan on building long term infrastructure on VMSn
 because it! does not have a long term future.   H I.E. you may be able to justify a specific application that runs on VMS, but E it is getting harder and harder to justify VMS as a platform on whichh you canr> build on (since there are fewer applications available to it).   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:00:50 -0500a% From: JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca>SD Subject: Re: Gartner Group lies about VMS ... loses all credibility!, Message-ID: <3C554B82.2424A300@videotron.ca>   "David L. Cathey" wrote:Q > Okay, then since you believe that the end-user base finds OpenVMS unaffordable,,O > why would you be interested in it?  Why do you believe you could sell product  > in that space?    N Because we believe that VMS has the potential to become a very interesting andJ attractive solution in many markets. And we know that we could push such aI solution to potential customers if Compaq were to help us or stay neutral L instead of constantly sending the wrong messages at VMS which may our job of promoting it moot.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:26:32 +0000A% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>X( Subject: Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question8 Message-ID: <nj9a5uk7n5jff08gpjsdn4l7m686dn43u1@4ax.com>  E On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:10:14 GMT, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote:o  L >HP documentation explains that the 35470 drive may be made to work on  "DEC >3100'G >and DEC 5000 workstations, running Ultrix and VMS". I tried the switche >settings mentioned,H >and several combinations. None worked. Initializing a blank tape always >results in a very? >long wait and the command stops with a "parity error" message.I  B Connect the drive to a Windows system and grab the firmware updateD program from the HP web site. Update the firmware to latest revisionF and then try again. I found a note in the HP support pages saying thatE firmware had to be at a minimum revision for VMS and, sure enough, iti worked after I upgraded.  L >There are two LED's on the drive, both green (briefly amber when the system >is switched on).oK >When the INIT command is issued the right LED flashes approx. four times as >second.L >I run VAX/VMS 7.2, no patches on a VAXstation 3100/GPX, hardware model type >59. >c0 >So is this a Unix only device, or is it broken? >a >Hans Vlemsn >i >e >e >BTW SCSI_INFO returns:  >$!n >$! SCSI_INFO V1.1 >$!hL >$!      Copyright (c) 1995 by DIGITAL Equipment Corporation, Maynard, Mass.M >$!      All Rights Reserved. Unpublished rights reserved under the copyright,# >$!      laws of the United States.d >$!c >$! Issuing INQUIRY QIOW >$! $ >$!   SCSI Inquiry Data (40 bytes) : >$!d> >$!      000:  01 80 02 02 23 00 00 18 48 50 20 20 20 20 20 20> >$!      010:  48 50 33 35 34 37 30 41 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20& >$!      020:  31 31 30 39 33 32 34 30 >$!f3 >$!      Peripheral Device Type : Sequential Accessc >$!-& >$!      Peripheral Device Qualifier : >$!iG >$!              Peripheral device type supported & connected to targeti >$!i# >$!      Vendor Identification : HPp >$! ) >$!      Product Identification: HP35470Ah >$! % >$!      Product Revision Level: 1109d >$!  >$!      ANSI Information: >$! # >$!              Complies to SCSI-2a >$!  >$!      ISO Information:d >$! E >$!              0 - does not claim ISO SCSI (ISO IS 9316) compliancel >$!a >    -- Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jan 2002 09:54:49 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)e( Subject: Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question0 Message-ID: <a33759$ob0$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  U In article <G8Z48.1521$A3.7684@typhoon.bart.nl>, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> writes:iL >HP documentation explains that the 35470 drive may be made to work on  "DEC >3100 G >and DEC 5000 workstations, running Ultrix and VMS". I tried the switchs >settings mentioned,H >and several combinations. None worked. Initializing a blank tape always >results in a very? >long wait and the command stops with a "parity error" message.eL >There are two LED's on the drive, both green (briefly amber when the system >is switched on). K >When the INIT command is issued the right LED flashes approx. four times at >second.L >I run VAX/VMS 7.2, no patches on a VAXstation 3100/GPX, hardware model type >59. >j0 >So is this a Unix only device, or is it broken?  M I remember having had a HP 35something connected to a MicroVAX 3100 under VMStI 5.5 and working fine. Is your SCSI-bus correctly terminated? What are the ( options available with the dip-switches?   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann   H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 08:18:54 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ( Subject: Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question3 Message-ID: <SqFsLTOmboMD@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  U In article <G8Z48.1521$A3.7684@typhoon.bart.nl>, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> writes:fM > HP documentation explains that the 35470 drive may be made to work on  "DEC  > 31006 > and DEC 5000 workstations, running Ultrix and VMS".     D    HP is confused.  DECstation 3100 and DECstation 5000 contian MIPSA    chips, and can't possible run VMS.  A DECstation 3100 is not a     VAXstation 3100.h  G    Is 35470 a 4mm drive?  If so it may be the one DEC rebadged and soldiG    for both Ultirx and VMS systems.  If that doesn't work it may simply     be a broken drive..        ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:24:04 GMTa' From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@zfree.co.nz> ( Subject: Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question$ Message-ID: <3c555c70$1@zfree.co.nz>  4 gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann) wrote:N >In article <G8Z48.1521$A3.7684@typhoon.bart.nl>, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> writes: H >>HP documentation explains that the 35470 drive may be made to work on  "DEC >>3100H >>and DEC 5000 workstations, running Ultrix and VMS". I tried the switch >>settings mentioned, I >>and several combinations. None worked. Initializing a blank tape always  >>results in a verya@ >>long wait and the command stops with a "parity error" message.M >>There are two LED's on the drive, both green (briefly amber when the system  >>is switched on).J >>When the INIT command is issued the right LED flashes approx. four times ah	 >>second.oH >>I run VAX/VMS 7.2, no patches on a VAXstation 3100/GPX, hardware model type >>59.  >>1 >>So is this a Unix only device, or is it broken?u >aJ >I remember having had a HP 35something connected to a MicroVAX 3100 under VMSrJ >5.5 and working fine. Is your SCSI-bus correctly terminated? What are the) >options available with the dip-switches?e >c	 >Regards,e >   Christoph Gartmann >yI >-- --------------------------------------------------------------------+eI >| Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |iI >| Immunbiologie                                                        |aI >| Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     | I >| D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               | I >+--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+nA The SCSI bus (the SCSI-B bus to be exact) is properly terminated.iH There is an RZ24L and a CD-ROM drive on the same bus and both work fine. The HP drive has 5 jumpers:t 3 for SCSI address 1 for pwr term (not jumpered)eE The fifth, not in use either (I'm not at home and forgot what it was)   ( There are 8 dip switches on the bottom. ! 1,2: HP advises not to touch them  3 : Media recognition system 4,5 : ?a 6 : performance option 7 : ? (parity ?)O 8 : DEC position, effectively switches to SCSI-1 handling of the space command.s  " I've tried the following settings: all switches "ON", except:  - 8 OFF  - 3 and 8 OFF  - 3, 6 and 8 OFFh  - 6 and 8 OFF  - 3, 5, 6, and 8 OFFo  - 3 OFF  I The last test showed a different result: the LEDs turned amber instead of  green.D Every dip switch change was done with the power off on the drive and a reboot of VMS.   Hans       http://www.zfree.co.nz   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:24:05 GMTe From: <hvlems@zfree.co.nz>( Subject: Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question" Message-ID: <3c555d2c@zfree.co.nz>  A Is the firmware version reported in the output of the >>>show devi command?7 If so, this driver returns 1106 (last digit uncertain).u   Hans  & Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:F >On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 20:10:14 GMT, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> wrote: >tH >>HP documentation explains that the 35470 drive may be made to work on  "DEC >>3100H >>and DEC 5000 workstations, running Ultrix and VMS". I tried the switch >>settings mentioned,)I >>and several combinations. None worked. Initializing a blank tape alwayse >>results in a veryq@ >>long wait and the command stops with a "parity error" message. >kC >Connect the drive to a Windows system and grab the firmware updatetE >program from the HP web site. Update the firmware to latest revisiontG >and then try again. I found a note in the HP support pages saying thataF >firmware had to be at a minimum revision for VMS and, sure enough, it >worked after I upgraded.s > M >>There are two LED's on the drive, both green (briefly amber when the systemr >>is switched on).J >>When the INIT command is issued the right LED flashes approx. four times ae	 >>second.iH >>I run VAX/VMS 7.2, no patches on a VAXstation 3100/GPX, hardware model type >>59.s >>1 >>So is this a Unix only device, or is it broken?u >> >>Hans Vlems >> >> >> >>BTW SCSI_INFO returns: >>$! >>$! SCSI_INFO V1.1a >>$!M >>$!      Copyright (c) 1995 by DIGITAL Equipment Corporation, Maynard, Mass.lN >>$!      All Rights Reserved. Unpublished rights reserved under the copyright$ >>$!      laws of the United States. >>$! >>$! Issuing INQUIRY QIOW  >>$!% >>$!   SCSI Inquiry Data (40 bytes) :  >>$!? >>$!      000:  01 80 02 02 23 00 00 18 48 50 20 20 20 20 20 20e? >>$!      010:  48 50 33 35 34 37 30 41 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 ' >>$!      020:  31 31 30 39 33 32 34 30  >>$!4 >>$!      Peripheral Device Type : Sequential Access >>$!' >>$!      Peripheral Device Qualifier :f >>$!H >>$!              Peripheral device type supported & connected to target >>$!$ >>$!      Vendor Identification : HP >>$!* >>$!      Product Identification: HP35470A >>$!& >>$!      Product Revision Level: 1109 >>$! >>$!      ANSI Information:i >>$!$ >>$!              Complies to SCSI-2 >>$! >>$!      ISO Information: >>$!F >>$!              0 - does not claim ISO SCSI (ISO IS 9316) compliance >>$! >> >v >--t >Alans       http://www.zfree.co.nz   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jan 2002 16:43:05 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)s( Subject: Re: HP 35470 DAT drive question0 Message-ID: <a33v2p$4id$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  N In article <3c555c70$1@zfree.co.nz>, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@zfree.co.nz> writes:B >The SCSI bus (the SCSI-B bus to be exact) is properly terminated.I >There is an RZ24L and a CD-ROM drive on the same bus and both work fine.  >The HP drive has 5 jumpers: >3 for SCSI addressi >1 for pwr term (not jumpered)  G Does this mean that the drive will supply termination power to the bus?hM Then it should not be sat. The same is true if it means to enable termination  on the bus.f  F >The fifth, not in use either (I'm not at home and forgot what it was) > ) >There are 8 dip switches on the bottom. e" >1,2: HP advises not to touch them >3 : Media recognition systemh   I would set this one.r   >4,5 : ? >6 : performance optiono >7 : ? (parity ?)e  ( If it is parity, I would set it as well.  P >8 : DEC position, effectively switches to SCSI-1 handling of the space command. >a# >I've tried the following settings:m >all switches "ON", except: 	 > - 8 OFF  > - 3 and 8 OFF. > - 3, 6 and 8 OFF > - 6 and 8 OFFO > - 3, 5, 6, and 8 OFF	 > - 3 OFFh >aJ >The last test showed a different result: the LEDs turned amber instead of >green.d  @ As far as I remember with my drive green was the desired colour.  E >Every dip switch change was done with the power off on the drive ande >a reboot of VMS.   G To be on the safe side you should even power switch the system or issuet( an "init" command at the console prompt.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann   H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, FRG                                               |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------   Date: 28 Jan 2002 17:26:40 GMT! From: briannfo@aol.com (BrianNFO)a* Subject: Re: I/O Performance on Alpha 41009 Message-ID: <20020128122640.25359.00001751@mb-mq.aol.com>w  N Thanks for all of the responses.  To those who have suggested caching softwareO (VMS included or otherwise) we are already running I/O Express.  The problem isOK this application uses some very large indexed files (in excess of 1 milliontK blocks) and the caching can be ineffective...very low hit rates.  I see I/OiO queues building on 2 or 3 of the drives, and IOX hit rates on those drive being L low.  Of course, more memory is an option...but I feel I need to address the slow scsi devices as well.   Briano   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:34:59 +0000.( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>* Subject: Re: I/O Performance on Alpha 4100) Message-ID: <3C558BC3.7111F88E@127.0.0.1>o   BrianNFO wrote:l > P > Thanks for all of the responses.  To those who have suggested caching softwareQ > (VMS included or otherwise) we are already running I/O Express.  The problem ishM > this application uses some very large indexed files (in excess of 1 millionwM > blocks) and the caching can be ineffective...very low hit rates.  I see I/O   F Just a quickie... Have you tuned up the indices on the indexed files ?   -- G( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comD   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 07:53:18 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e2 Subject: Re: Inquirer : "Intel *could* can Itanic"3 Message-ID: <J7o0mTJdzL4x@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  T In article <3C51A996.14B6C88F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei@videotron.ca> writes: > O > What is really needed is for some company to name itseld "Industry standard",sO > and buy  the rights to Alpha. Alpha would therefore be an "Industry Standard"pK > platform. That company could also buy VMS, making it "Industry Standard".n  *    This approach has already been tried.    1    Did you think Windows ran on analog computers?e   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 03:40:27 -0800- From: tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell)t" Subject: Re: Looking for a VMS job= Message-ID: <9f261edc.0201280340.37cda6d1@posting.google.com>K   http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&threadm=9f261edc.0201240357.7f560029%40posting.google.com&prev=/groups%3Fnum%3D25%26hl%3Den%26group%3Dcomp.os.vms%26start%3D100%26group%3Dcomp.os.vms    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:32:26 -0500M0 From: "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca>  Subject: Re: Low resource on VMS3 Message-ID: <sbe58.2174$EI.11916@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>c  J you can always go to altavista, click translation, and give the URL to the translator.nJ I'd like to offer this automatically, but did not find such a free service+ (with not too many restrictions) as of yet.e   --   SyltremiI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)i> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  A "Hamid Salikin" <salikin@yahoo.com> a crit dans le message news:i2 d82d06f8.0201222354.28aa1bf8@posting.google.com...H > Sorry for not mentioning what the low resource was. It is actually theD > disk space (1 GB). After a week or so, I will end up with 0 blocks) > when i do the "show device dka0 /full".h >oF > I can't read French but I believe the Syltrem page you gave me was a- > good VMS page. Any english version? Thanks.2 >a >0= > "Syltrem" <syltrem@videotron.spammenot.ca> wrote in messagej- news:<s3W28.920$EI.5723@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>...  > > What resource is low?D8 > > How do you know it's low (messages, behavior, etc) ? > >  > > -- > >s > > SyltremeC > > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - eno	 franais)sB > > To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address > > E > > "Hamid Salikin" <salikin@yahoo.com> a crit dans le message news:r4 > > d82d06f8.0201210146.74e09c@posting.google.com...K > > > I'm running six identical AlphaStation 200 4/100 workstation & servereE > > > setup (software/hardware) for a SCADA system. However, I have a > > > > problem with one of the workstation due to low resource. > > >-L > > > I still can't figure out what is causing this problem since I'm new toL > > > VMS? Anyway, can I can double check its disk usage and compare it withK > > > the other workstation? This workstation is really a pain in the neck;GD > > > need to reboot it and restore almost once a week which is very > > > inefficient. > > >e5 > > > Can anyone help me or give suggestions. Thanks!o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:58:24 +0000d  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.comU Subject: Marmite FAQ [was Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans ( was The]s: Message-ID: <OF383E020F.928BF11E-ON00256B4F.0052086E@btyp>  @ Is this the last word on Marmite and its poor quality imitators?  $ http://www.gty.org/~phil/marmite.htm   Knowing this group I doubt it!   ;^Di   Steve Sp        D Roberta Davies <roberta.davies@virgin.net> on 01/26/2002 01:22:50 AM    To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:.G From:      Roberta Davies <roberta.davies@virgin.net>, 26 January 2002,             1:22 a.m.  ; Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was Thep     JF Mezei wrote:s >n > Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:sE > > be sweetish, whereas a crumpet is more likely to be thought of as  savory.  > >eC > > Wonderful when toasted, spread with butter, and just a smear ofr Marmite. >$K > Was all fine until you mentioned Marmite. Never quite figured out why theoF > brits (Marmite), the Aussies and Kiwis (Vegemite) would have such an apetite H > for yeast infection. I think that offering Vegemite to anyone under 18 shoudl" > be considered child molestation. > K > And what I don't quite get is why the USA is guilty of inflicting Aussies2 and J > Kiwis with Vegemite (it is made by Kraft, a USA corporation). And poepleE > complain about a few talibans being held by americans in a tropicalu	 "resort".sK > Interesting that nobody would have complained if they had been sent to anp > alaskan prison.u  H The Marmite TV ads in Britain are based on the theme "you either love itF or hate it".  There is no middle of the road when it comes to Marmite!1 (Personally, I can't stand to be near the stuff.)t  C The first ad showed a Marmite promotion outside a supermarket, withfD pretty girls distributing samples of Marmite on toast to passers-by.H Some grabbed eagerly, some practically mobbed the girls; others ran awayB screaming, and one man (after my own heart) threw a piece down and ground it under foot.u  E Another showed a young couple cuddling on the sofa.  They kiss.  NextnE scene he's in the bathroom, gagging and swilling down mouthwash.  ShesG has a Marmite-spread crumpet on the table next to her side of the sofa,7 with one bite taken out of it.  D Our favourite showed a 20-something man in an obviously shared flat,G staggering down to find something for breakfast.  He sniffs at the milkkH and recoils in disgust.  He makes a piece of toast and butters it, usingG a knife he picks up from the draining board.  He takes a bite -- arrgh! F Spits the toast out, looks around desperately.  Grabs the curdled milkC and gulps it down.  The knife has a smear of Marmite on the side he  didn't notice.   Robbie      F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message hasrG been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,?$ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have received K this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.o  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.-  I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire,-D RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 10:45:16 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)7 Subject: Microsoft costs sucker windoze users billions!t= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0201281045.67142de9@posting.google.com>c  E having fun losing money all you windoze users ... vms saved billions!   ' If Microsoft security fails, .Net failsU By John Pescatore  ZDNet News n January 23, 2002   0  E Microsoft has committed to making its products more secure and worthy F of customers' trust. The philosophy outlined in a memo from Bill GatesD last week lays out most of the imperatives that Gartner believes are6 necessary for Microsoft to change the software maker's< long-established product management and development culture.  > Microsoft became the world's most powerful software company byD building software that gave the individual the control. Upgrades andE new software always included more features to allow people to do moreaB things. Product managers got promoted by shipping software on timeD with enough new features to compel customers to upgrade. Crashes andE sloppy programming that left gaping holes for hackers became problemsw of secondary importance.  F With the Internet, however, security vulnerabilities became exposed toE attack from any savvy programmer on the planet. If Gates' realignmentaF of Microsoft to the Internet in 1996 had made security a prime concern> for new Internet features, enterprises would have avoided many@ billions of dollars of cleanup costs because of the long list ofF viruses and worms that have struck Internet-connected servers and PCs.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:49:26 -06009+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>s; Subject: RE: Microsoft costs sucker windoze users billions!nL Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E1D4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com>   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: bob@instantwhip.com [mailto:bob@instantwhip.com]  H > With the Internet, however, security vulnerabilities became exposed toG > attack from any savvy programmer on the planet. If Gates' realignment   Q ..not to mention any idiot with Viral Basic, or possibly even a trained MONKEY.      Regards,   Chris     ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developert Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");  '   -   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 08:13:54 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)p& Subject: Re: mount problems on cluster3 Message-ID: <5a2UgNSrUXvz@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  U In article <HnP48.1431$A3.7139@typhoon.bart.nl>, "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> writes:iD > First of all, mounting disks in sylogicals.com is not a good idea.  #    We are in complete disagreement.   A    Mounting disks in sylogicals is needed if the disk in question >    holds the cluster common files for which sylogicals defines?    logical names.  Mounting other disks is not a bad idea.  CDs @    and Infoserver services often cannot be mounted in sylogicalsG    (never understood the issue with CDs, I think it has something to do     with security profiles).a  @    All my clusters mount all thier hard disks in sylogicals.com.  F    Is it possible that the correct sylogicals.com is in a sys$specific@    directory instead of a sys$common directory?  The other nodes    wouldn't see it if it is.      ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:18:56 -0800:' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> 1 Subject: Re: new partner also sent to openvms.orge+ Message-ID: <3C5579F0.A4A8F45F@caltech.edu>m   "Main, Kerry" wrote: > I > And to just add to Sues posting .. As mentioned before, this is a greattC > example where an application written in Java becomes very easy to. > certify on OpenVMS.c >   9 ANSI C is just as portable as Java and a WHOLE LOT FASTER ; once it's actually running. At least that's true for simple 2 programs that process files and/or compute values.< Once a GUI or network usage is required C becomes a lot less; portable, for instance, select() isn't used the same way on ; different OS's.  At that point Java does have a portabilitytE advantage.  However, it's becoming less and less clear how great thatw? advantage is though since the advent of Cygwin and OS/X one cangE typically build any gnuish application (ie, will compile with gcc and A build with gmake) for Unix/Windows/Mac with minimal work.  It mayf@ not look native on one or more of these but it will run.  If the8 DII/COE stuff ever ships VMS should be in the same boat.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:59:37 +0100 (MET)X9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> 0 Subject: ON ERROR when READ SYS$INPUT?!?!?!??!?!; Message-ID: <01KDM3CNSYM08ZJH7N@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>S  H I recently wrote an easy-to-use bare-bones but flexible menu program in D DCL.  Below is an excerpt which exhibits the behaviour I am curious  about.  	 $DISPLAY:t $  ON ERROR THEN CONTINUEs& $  READ/PROMPT="> " SYS$COMMAND ANSWER# $  ANSWER = F$EDIT(ANSWER,"UPCASE")n
 $GOTO DISPLAYb $  EXIT   G If one executes this and enters any input except ^C, ^Y, F10 or ^Z, it !I seems to work as desired.  I put in the ON ERROR so that F10 or ^Z would :H not lead to it exiting.  This also works as desired, AS LONG AS ONE HAS D ENTERED SOME OTHER INPUT FIRST.  If this is the first input entered G (when restarting after breaking with ^C or ^Y, be sure to type EXIT at >> the DCL prompt for a fresh start), the behaviour is different.   Why?   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 18:09:50 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>I4 Subject: Re: ON ERROR when READ SYS$INPUT?!?!?!??!?!; Message-ID: <01KDM3SVJ1XA8ZJH7N@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>    > $DISPLAY:- > $  ON ERROR THEN CONTINUEz( > $  READ/PROMPT="> " SYS$COMMAND ANSWER% > $  ANSWER = F$EDIT(ANSWER,"UPCASE")r > $GOTO DISPLAYn	 > $  EXIT(  C Apologies for following up my own post here.  If ANSWER is defined -- before the READ, then things work as desired.a   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:24:32 -0800 (PST)S. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>
 Subject: OpenT@ Message-ID: <20020128182432.42793.qmail@web20208.mail.yahoo.com>   =20  =20H   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DrL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D  F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - BrazilT fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?5 Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!=20r http://auctions.yahoo.coml   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 08:48:48 +0100 (MET)i& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> Subject: StarOffice help?e6 Message-ID: <200201280748.IAA21267@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  I does anybody know, where I can get StarOffice help for free? Is there any I newsgroup present? Sun's service for StarOffice is not good enaugh (I did + not found any email address for questions).n   TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 11:55:11 GMTs- From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>n Subject: Re: StarOffice help?v( Message-ID: <3C554041.90601@qsl.network>   Rudolf Wingert wrote:n   > Hello, > K > does anybody know, where I can get StarOffice help for free? Is there anyCK > newsgroup present? Sun's service for StarOffice is not good enaugh (I did-- > not found any email address for questions).      http://www.openoffice.orgF   -John| wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Only.   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 08:27:50 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)F Subject: Re: StarOffice help? 3 Message-ID: <uN+KKdiPxOXe@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  _ In article <200201280748.IAA21267@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>, Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> writes:2 > Hello, > K > does anybody know, where I can get StarOffice help for free? Is there any K > newsgroup present? Sun's service for StarOffice is not good enaugh (I didr- > not found any email address for questions).s  @    Last month I was able to download both StarOffice for WindowsC    and the StarOffice source.  I loaded the latter on my Alpha withaA    the notion of looking into a port.  The source was incomplete.   G    Now I can only find references to sell StarOffice cheap for Windows,oA    Solaris, or Linux.  Cheap is good, and Staroffice is certainlyf    cheaper than MS Office.  F    I think any who followed Sun's open source promises and contributed?    to the ports of a free office package may feel shortchanged.1   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:54:33 -0500P* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: StarOffice help?a- Message-ID: <0033000049447782000002L022*@MHS>n  = =0AOnce upon a time I understood that there was an unofficiale7 afterhours effort by some at Compaq to port StarOffice.p  " It may have fallen by the wayside.   Hoff?a   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET.& Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 9:28 AMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: RE: StarOffice help?C    E In article <200201280748.IAA21267@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>, Rudolf Wingert " <win@fom.fgan.de> writes: > Hello, >mH > does anybody know, where I can get StarOffice help for free? Is there=  anyH > newsgroup present? Sun's service for StarOffice is not good enaugh (I=  did- > not found any email address for questions).j  @    Last month I was able to download both StarOffice for WindowsC    and the StarOffice source.  I loaded the latter on my Alpha with A    the notion of looking into a port.  The source was incomplete.o  H    Now I can only find references to sell StarOffice cheap for Windows,=  A    Solaris, or Linux.  Cheap is good, and Staroffice is certainlyn    cheaper than MS Office.  F    I think any who followed Sun's open source promises and contributed@    to the ports of a free office package may feel shortchanged.=   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:54:16 +0000 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>h Subject: Re: StarOffice help?08 Message-ID: <cpra5ukecq0hf14m4q3rp86lp62hp27eq8@4ax.com>  F On 28 Jan 2002 08:27:50 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:    A >   Last month I was able to download both StarOffice for WindowssD >   and the StarOffice source.  I loaded the latter on my Alpha withB >   the notion of looking into a port.  The source was incomplete. >oH >   Now I can only find references to sell StarOffice cheap for Windows,B >   Solaris, or Linux.  Cheap is good, and Staroffice is certainly >   cheaper than MS Office.c   Go to www.openoffice.org  ' Supposedly buildable sources are there.(  5 OpenOffice is to StarOffice as Mozilla is to Netscapee  G >   I think any who followed Sun's open source promises and contributedy@ >   to the ports of a free office package may feel shortchanged.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:02:48 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: StarOffice help? ) Message-ID: <3C558438.A292BFA4@127.0.0.1>    Alan Greig wrote:' > 7 > OpenOffice is to StarOffice as Mozilla is to Netscapea  - You can also go to http://www.staroffice.com/   G I have used 5.2 to undertake tasks I'd normally use "that" package for,s< and while it is slower, it becomes more intuitive. On customH installation even recognises some DEC file formats, so overall I feel it is very capable.  F I understand that SO 6 which is in beta is quicker due to the fact the0 writer, impress, calc, browser, etc., are split.  @ Personally I don't mind the way SO 5.2 works. It feels much more@ integrated that the 'other one', and not having to open multipleD application instances for different types of document is, I feel, an
 advantage.   -- w( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 17:32:49 GMT ' From: Rick Dyson <Rick-Dyson@UIowa.EDU>a Subject: STR$lowercase ?) Message-ID: <3C558B41.B0CC6A69@UIowa.EDU>M  O There is a STR$UPCASE system service in the STR$ system, but I have a user thateN would like to force lowercase in his Fortran program and I can't quickly find P an answer to his question.  Is there such a pre-existing VMS service or function1 that can be easily called from a Fortran program?s  A This is currently on an Alpha/OpenVMS v7.1 with FORTRAN v7.4-xxx.2   Thanks for any help!  
 Rick Dyson   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 19:06:29 +0100e9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>4 Subject: Re: STR$lowercase ?' Message-ID: <3C559325.CEB701E5@aaa.com>t  C I'v not checked, but the F$FAO lexical have a "LOWERCASE" argument.o, Maybe the sys$fao service also can do that ?   Jan-Erik Sderholm.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 09:32:17 -0500C2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>. Subject: Re: What is unix for SEARCH /WINDOW=0. Message-ID: <3C5560F1.6DBF4F26@mindspring.com>   Chuck McCrobie wrote:   A > find starting-dir -name '*.c' -exec grep -l SEARCH-STRING {} \;s >wD > Yes, I've used this several hundred times a day on Unix systems :(  : Most of us just alias this to something, e.g., "findgrep".6 Then it's painless until you need to recreate it *AND*= you've misplaced your standard .cshrc / .tcshrc / <whatever>.t   Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 18:20:09 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>: Subject: Re: Wierd File Reading Behaviour - Dec C on Alpha- Message-ID: <87aduyg4km.fsf@prep.synonet.com>i  . "pocketmoon" <pocketmoon@ntlworld.com> writes:  9 > Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message ) > news:87u1tarucu.fsf@prep.synonet.com... + > > robert.james@uk.ngrid.com (rob) writes:e > > J > > > The only way I can get it to be as slow as the default (recommended)G > > > behaviour is to do a setbuf(fp,NULL), which turns buffered IO offr > > > completely!t > >h > > > What is going on ?!d > > 4 > > You have turned on buffering. Don't ask, VaxC... > >  > >t > <SNIP> >  > Eek! > + > So it's doing unbuffered IO by default ?!, > C > Hmm of to try IO_PERFORM if I can get the Ops Manager to grant beb! > VMS$BUFFER_THINGY_USER privs...t  K No, it is doing buffered IO with one buffer of one block. I told you not toh ask...   -- i< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 15:18:59 GMTo) From: Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.rr.com>t Subject: WWW.GIWERSWORLD.ORG1 Message-ID: <9QZKWvQ9c$vhp9.082058@62.42.230.225>i   FOR ALL YOUR ANTISEMITIC NEEDS.a    / REMEMBER: TODAY'S KIKE IS TOMORROW'S LAMPSHADE.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 12:56:31 +0000w. From: Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@red.sylvania>D Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The8 Message-ID: <gnd25ug0p1u5tivjk15305vt6ap6v3ucpa@4ax.com>  = On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:50:49 +0000, ic0cdfw00@ic24.net wrote:e  A >On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 23:17:02 GMT, bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton  >Kelly}) wrote:  >r- >>In article <3C4DEA60.3B84A44E@ntlworld.com>r4 >>           bass.a.voice@ntlworld.com "DJR" writes: >> >>> Alan Jones wrote:hR >>> > BrE: scone is usually pronounced 'skon' (I dare not use 'gone' as the rhyme,N >>> > because in BrE "gone" is sometimes 'gawn' - old-fashioned posh). "Scone"< >>> > rhymed with "own" is by some thought not quite proper  >>> L >>> Some UK English speakers may disagree entirely with this and assert thatA >>> the "correct" pronunciation of scone is to rhyme with "cone".l >>J >>And has already been remarked in the thread, such people will be pseuds,D >>who doubtless also allow their little fingers to poke out from theD >>teacup, and refer to serviettes and toilets.  This is mock-genteel" >>affectation, and decidely non-U. >tA >Well, I and my family and friends, born and bred in S. Yorkshire8B >always pronounced it scone rhyming with cone.  Miners, engineers,C >fairground attendants, tailoresses, in service, shopkeepers sum uplC >their occupations.  I doubt my parents ever heard of raised little0? >fingers in the 30s, 40s and 50s, I certainly did not.  Come todC >think of it I never  heard the pronunciation not rhyming with cone B >until I was employed in the Manchester area commencing 1961.  AndB >when I go home to S.Y. the pronunciation rhymes with cone to this >day.e >b? >You are welcome to attend any working mens' clubs in S. Y. ande? >justify your accusation of mock gentility. They will I am surew: >ignore your use of pseud as just a smart way of repeating >yourself. y  @ Absolutely right. The pronunciation depends on which part of theF country you are in and how genteel you can fool yourself into thinking the other pronunciation is.   F In the Midlands, working people from backgrounds similar to those AlanA quoted rhymed them with cones when buying them from the baker. InhA tea-shops which considered themselves posh (had doileys, cups and D saucers instead of mugs, and fabric napkins) they were called skons.E We always thought it was the fault of affected southerners from southnE of the river Trent. Events of the past 50 years have proved us right:f@ everything is the fault of those southerners, but that's another story.     --   wrmst rgrds " RB...(docrobinUNSPAM@ntlworld.com)   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 07:50:15 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)MD Subject: Re: Younger recruits versus experienced veterans  ( was The3 Message-ID: <82twv6SU2rbe@eisner.encompasserve.org>>  d In article <wwn0z1n5uq.fsf@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu>, Jim Thomas <thomas@atlas.cfht.hawaii.edu> writes:  N >  Bob>    They way I heard it was "You can use everything except the squeal".4 >  Bob>    When I woked at McD's we used the squeal. > + > I didn't know McD's did Chinese meals :-)o      Newbie.    H    Everybody who's been around here for a while knows I can't spell and     type at the same time.    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.054 ************************ '   -   ------------------------------    Date: 28 Jan 2002 08:13:54 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)p& Subject: Re: mount problems on cluster3 Message-ID: <5a2UgNSrUXvz@eisner.encompasserve.org>.  U In article <HnP48.1431$A3.7139@typhoon.bart.nl>, +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    	+K    
+K    +K    +K    
+K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K     +K    !+K    "+K    #+K    $+K    %+K    &+K    '+K    (+K    )+K    *+K    ++K    ,+K    -+K    .+K    /+K    0+K    1+K    2+K    3+K    4+K    5+K    6+K    7+K    8+K    9+K    :+K    ;+K    <+K    =+K    >+K    ?+K    @+K    A+K    B+K    C+K    D+K    E+K    F+K    G+K    H+K    I+K    J+K    K+K    L+K    M+K    N+K    O+K    P+K    Q+K    R+K    S+K    T+K    U+K    V+K    W+K    X+K    Y+K    Z+K    [+K    \+K    ]+K    ^+K    _+K    `+K    a+K    b+K    c+K    d+K    e+K    f+K    g+K    h+K    i+K    j+K    k+K    l+K    m+K    n+K    o+K    p+K    q+K    r+K    s+K    t+K    u+K    v+K    w+K    x+K    y+K    z+K    {+K    |+K    }+K    ~+K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    +K    