1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 10 Jul 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 376       Contents:! Alpha Shadowing Phase II question % Re: Alpha Shadowing Phase II question % Re: Alpha Shadowing Phase II question # C and X11 programming, finding info ) Dell Says on Track Despite Weak PC Demand + Re: DS10L Feedback - more for the pickin' ! + Re: DS10L Feedback - more for the pickin' !  EARN $5,000 / month!!! Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion RE: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh...+ Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + RE: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts = Re: New web-page dedicated to ports of PD software to OpenVMS = Re: New web-page dedicated to ports of PD software to OpenVMS + Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow) + Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow) + Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow) + Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)  Re: Pascal Editor  PURGE   version set to ;1   Re: SET FILE/TRUNCATE equivalent Re: SMTP 8bit hack not working Re: SMTP 8bit hack not working Re: SPAM $5,000 / month!!! Used Alpha's and Vax's RE: Used Alpha's and Vax's Re: Used Alpha's and Vax's Re: Used Alpha's and Vax's VMS Qns  Re: Where to put startup stuff  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:08:14 +0100 ) From: Witchy <news@sruasonidyranib.co.uk> * Subject: Alpha Shadowing Phase II question8 Message-ID: <gjcmiu0gthbquq006rmg3f872agnovccrg@4ax.com>  	 Hi folks,   D Haven't been here for ages so I'm happy to be back in the VMS arena!  @ A scenario: a customer of mine is setting up a disaster tolerantF cluster consisting of a local ES40 and remote ES40 on the other end ofD a fibre link; bog standard stuff. The local machine will be the mainE one with the remote available in case of failure etc, so they want to C set up host based shadowing between the sites, data disks only. The D way I've got the LAN set up means only cluster and shadowing traffic6 is going over the fibre, users get in via other means.  ? What I'm wondering is is there a way of creating the shadowsets E without having to go thru a full shadow copy? I would've thought that A an image backup of the local disks restored onto the remote disks C might stop a full copy when the shadowsets are created, but testing F today revealed it doesn't matter HOW I do it, the system will still do$ a full copy when the set is created.  C Is there a way of avoiding the full initial copy? The end user (not ? the customer) is very picky and liable to jump on the slightest C performance hit since we've only just upgraded his 4100 to the twin ! CPU ES40 which he loves to bits.    C Personally I don't think there WILL be a performance hit for a full D copy, particularly when limiting shadowing threads to the default ofB 4. There's 450 users on the system most of the time, but even then- they don't hit more than 50% resource useage.   % Reverse domain name to reply by email    thanks!    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:07:36 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> . Subject: Re: Alpha Shadowing Phase II question, Message-ID: <3D2B4283.265BC8A1@videotron.ca>  
 Witchy wrote: A > What I'm wondering is is there a way of creating the shadowsets 0 > without having to go thru a full shadow copy ?  J There was a discussion of this a few weeks ago. You may reduce the time toJ bring the shadow set up to speed by using a /PHYSICAL backup, but then youN need to have the source disk totally off-line with nobody using it (eg: system down time).   N If you can afford such system downtime, then the normal full shadow copy won't  really be that different to you.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 02 13:15:32 PST  From: mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com . Subject: Re: Alpha Shadowing Phase II question( Message-ID: <jkdCPpc+TB8r@cpva.saic.com>  , In article <3D2B4283.265BC8A1@videotron.ca>,0  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Witchy wrote: B >> What I'm wondering is is there a way of creating the shadowsets1 >> without having to go thru a full shadow copy ?  > L > There was a discussion of this a few weeks ago. You may reduce the time toL > bring the shadow set up to speed by using a /PHYSICAL backup, but then youP > need to have the source disk totally off-line with nobody using it (eg: system
 > down time).  > P > If you can afford such system downtime, then the normal full shadow copy won't" > really be that different to you.  K No need to have exclusive access to the source disk; just insure that after O the /physical copy is made that you intialize (or use some otherwise convenient K technique to destroy the SCB) the /physical copy disk so that the shadowing N software can determine which disk is to be the master. The initialization willL only rewrite the reserved files, one of which is BITMAP.SYS, which I believeL contains the SCB (storage control block containing description of the shadowK set). When the initialized /physical copy is targeted by the shadow copy it K will find that nearly all of the disk is already the same as the master and ' skip the copy portion of the operation.    --   - Jim    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:07:52 -0500 . From: Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com>, Subject: C and X11 programming, finding info. Message-ID: <3D2B5EB8.28B38F85@pressenter.com>  @ I've been working on writing some X windows programs on VMS. I'm learning alot.C The only problem that I'm coming across so far is that the O'Reilly 
 books that  I'm using is based on a unix OS.  H So I plunge on... I've worked with Ultrix, (that's right Ultrix...v3.1 - v4.5) @ and I've worked with Linux. So for the most part I can do enough translation to get by.    But I've ran across a stumper.  D The books mentions font aliases. And that there's a file listing the	 fonts and B their aliases. I don't have the book in front of me, but if memory serves, the % said it was "font.dir" or "fonts.dir"   < Anyway, where can I find such a list, if there is one, on my ever-so-wonder, alpha OpenVMS v7.2-1, and v7.3 workstations?  = And to expand on that... Would anybody want to comment on the  differences G between the C programming environments between VMS and typical unix? (I  know, , there is no such thing as a "typical" unix.)    F And does anybody have some pointers to more information. I know it may beG asking a lot for tutorials geared toward VMS. But examples etc. Even if  they're G not VMS designed. I'm starting to get a handle on all the concepts. But  it'd be H nice to see some examples of simple actions. Like "this is how you build a A pulldown menu" "this is how on would implement an input routine."   E I'll look through DSNlinks examples tomorrow. But I thought I'd get a  start 	 here too.      Thanks in advance,   Lyndon --  G My opinions are mine and mine alone. They seldom align with those of my 	 employer.     H The only good thing about putting the cart before the horse is you don't have to look at the horse's butt.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:28:38 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 2 Subject: Dell Says on Track Despite Weak PC DemandG Message-ID: <GPGW8.3249$UHe1.2048@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   L http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=580&ncid=749&e=6&u=/nm/20020  709/bs_nm/tech_dell_outlook_dc_4  ) Dell Says on Track Despite Weak PC Demand  Tue Jul 9, 1:20 PM ET  By Caroline Humer   J NEW YORK (Reuters) - Dell Computer Corp. on Tuesday said it had not seen aG pick-up in demand for personal computers but its results in the current K quarter were on track as it holds down costs and captures market share from  competitors.  E The No. 2 PC maker also poured cold water on rumors that it might buy ) printer maker Lexmark International Inc..   C "We are still sticking by our guidance of our earnings call," Chief K Operating Officer Kevin Rollins said on a Bear Stearns conference call with 
 investors.  F Dell previously predicted fiscal second-quarter earnings of 18 cents aI share, up from 16 cents a year earlier, and revenue of $8.2 billion, up 8  percent.  I Dell's backing of its guidance comes after competitors and suppliers have L lowered expectations for the quarter. Apple Computer Inc. last month loweredH its guidance due to weak demand, while chip maker Advanced Micro Devices7 Inc. has warned twice in the past month of low revenue.   L Rollins said Dell has seen no rebound in PC demand but has continued to gainI market share. Dell has used its low-price, direct-sales business model to J build its market share over the past two years. It lost its ranking as theD top PC maker in May when Hewlett-Packard Co. bought Compaq Computer.  J Rollins said that "the corporate market really has not picked up much yet.G Any glimmers of hope that now it's turning are just not happening yet."   F He said demand from education and government customers is on track but consumer demand is soft.  G Rollins said he does not believe there has been a pick-up in demand for J components used to make PCs, despite some reports out of Asia last week to that effect.  L "I think you're seeing a drop in component prices, which says demand is off.J That's been a consistent trend," he said. "In the last week or two I don't@ believe there's enough data to say there's an uptick in demand."  K Merrill Lynch analyst Steven Fortuna said in a research note that worldwide I PC demand is roughly stable but he has cut his unit sales growth forecast L for the second half of the year because of signs that consumer and corporateI spending will not pick up. Last week, Merrill reduced its forecast for PC G unit sales growth in 2002 to 2.5 percent from 10.5 percent, citing weak  technology spending.  E Rollins dismissed as "highly unlikely" any chance that Dell would buy H Lexmark -- one of many ideas floated by market watchers who suggest thatB Dell might soon begin making and selling its own branded printers.  E However, Rollins said Dell was interested in getting into the printer I business, which is highly profitable for some Dell competitors, thanks in 2 part to the lucrative market for ink and services.  I Needham & Co. analyst Charles Wolf said in a note that Dell's best choice H for entering the printer business was to partner with a printer company,L such as Lexmark, with the aim of weakening HP's profitable printer business.  L "The rationale underlying the partnership is that Lexmark can afford to sellL cartridges to Dell at lower prices because of the high volume of printer and< cartridge sales that Dell can bring to Lexmark," Wolf wrote.   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:10:30 +0000 (UTC), From: "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotmail.c0m>4 Subject: Re: DS10L Feedback - more for the pickin' !/ Message-ID: <agf8ul$gk8$1@paris.btinternet.com>   	 Hi David,   H I'm pretty sure I want at least one of these, how many do you have left?  L Do you have offices in the UK/Europe or is it a credit card thing? (Exchange" rate gettin' better by the day :-)  E I can forgo the graphics card but the 1 PCI slot would appear to be a L bummer. What is this talk of SCSI cards that others have been discussing? DoL the DS10Ls not come with SCSI connector for an external tape drive? Is it an external disk storage issue?  G Also I'm gonna use it as a development machine so 256MB memory is fine.   I In case the CSA shun me can you please reply with two quotes with/without  licenses. Delivery to London.   I I need VMS 7.3-1, TCP/IP, DECnet,(or NASnnn?) LMF PAK generator and COBOL    Cheers Richard Maher.   K PS. I know you're not retiring on the mark-up on these so sorry for all the 
 questions.  < BTW. What do you charge for a 2nd hand DLT drive these days?  : Island (hpaq.net) <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote in message) news:ui9qgp9f165ea4@news.supernews.com... G > Anyone willing to offer testimonial on the DS10L's we are selling ???  > # > We still have a quantity in stock   > DS10L 466Mhz EV6 CPU 2MB cache > 512MB Memory (2 x 256) > 40GB ATA100 7200RPM Disk > CDROM and Floppy > Dual 10/100 Ethernet > Power Cord >  > $950 >  > Or >   > DS10L 466Mhz EV6 CPU 2MB cache > 1GB Memory (2 x 256) > 40GB ATA100 7200RPM Disk > CDROM and Floppy > Dual 10/100 Ethernet > Power Cord >  > $1240  >  > Or >   > DS10L 466Mhz EV6 CPU 2MB cache > 512MB Memory (2 x 256) > 40GB ATA100 7200RPM Disk > CDROM and Floppy' > 3DLabs VX1 Oxygen 32MB PCI Video Card  > Dual 10/100 Ethernet > Power Cord >  >  > -- > Island Computers US Corp.  > 2700 Gregory Street  > Savannah GA 31404  > Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 ! > International: 001 912 447 6622 " > Facsimile:      001 912 201 0096 > dbturner@hpaq.net  > www.hpaq.net >  >  >  > -- > Island Computers US Corp.  > 2700 Gregory Street  > Savannah GA 31404  > Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332 ! > International: 001 912 447 6622 " > Facsimile:      001 912 201 0096 > dbturner@hpaq.net  > www.hpaq.net >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:20:16 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> 4 Subject: Re: DS10L Feedback - more for the pickin' !' Message-ID: <3D2B2960.D76EF34A@aaa.com>   < Richard, as far as I can see from the "Golden Eggs" paper on> the DS10L, there is *no* built-in SCSI interface. The internalA disk is either UltraIDE or SCSI using an extrac SCSI interface in  the single PCI slot.  A The external/standard ports on the box are Mouse, Kb, COM1, COM2, E Parr, RMC (?) and 2*USB. And a SCSI port *if* you have a SCSI card in 
 the PCI slot.    Jan-Erik Sderholm.    Richard Maher wrote: >  > Hi David,  > J > I'm pretty sure I want at least one of these, how many do you have left? > N > Do you have offices in the UK/Europe or is it a credit card thing? (Exchange$ > rate gettin' better by the day :-) > G > I can forgo the graphics card but the 1 PCI slot would appear to be a N > bummer. What is this talk of SCSI cards that others have been discussing? DoN > the DS10Ls not come with SCSI connector for an external tape drive? Is it an > external disk storage issue? >i   ------------------------------  ' Date: Tuesday, 09 Jul 2002 18:07:53 GMT  From: newlife <newlife@tut.by> Subject: EARN $5,000 / month!!!o) Message-ID: <agf92j$2jqf$35@serv2.vsi.ru>e  -  Read at least ONE PAGE before deleting it!!!o  4  Top Reasons Why YOU should read this to the bottom:/  - you are a wise man, what means you can thinkk  - you need some real moneyk:  - next chance may happen not soon (if will happen at all)6  - everyone can earn money using this program and you     are not an exception A  - at least save it on your harddrive, if you'll change your mindk     ,  Why do YOU think this system isn't working?;   Maybe you know someone who didn't succed in MLM business?e   ?   Afraid of loosing $25? How much time does it take you to earnt>   $25? 2hrs? 3hrs? So why are you afraid at least to try? Even@   if it wouldn't work for you (what I strongly doubt), it's just:   $25 investment.... But YOUR earnings can be really huge!  ?   Or maybe you see this kind of message not for the first time?y?   Then why do you think you are still getting it? The money youc>   send have a certain destination. If you are afraid that this?   are fake adresses then go check one of them if it's near you.p  @   Why people would post their adresses and names? Can you think    about it?c      /   Don't hesitate to do it!!! Cause it works!!! p   You CAN MAKE MONEY!!!!       AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV:D    K Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an  P investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE  AND THE INTERNET ! S    N BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ''Bull'', please O read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news yP lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly J news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this M program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show p8 also investigated whether or not the program was legal.     K Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws cQ prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple tQ instructions, they are bound to make some mega-bucks with only $25 out of pocket cL cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS 4 ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER.     M This is what one had to say: ''Thanks for this profitable opportunity. I was cJ approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I K finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal iO effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $610,470.00 in oK 21 weeks, with money still coming in." - Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey n    Q Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I aK never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I VM decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa  J ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made P $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, N in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 O and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the -( simple steps and NOT change anything.''     # More testimonials later but first, s    5 ===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ======u    K If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and  J comfortably, please read the following... THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!!     O FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE,   GUARANTEED!      INSTRUCTIONS:     , Order all 5 reports shown on the list below     P For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING N and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to Q the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in g case of any mail problemsg    F When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports.     K You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and tI resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. Within a few days you will iO receive, via e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. dM Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the sL 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these M reports and keep it on your desk in case something happens to your computer. f    M IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each  P report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed K below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will lose out on a majority of your  O profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does tI not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if  O altered, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives 0N names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work K this way. Believe us, and Do Not try to change anything other than what is wM instructed. If you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the i
 reward!!!     < ------------------------------------------------------------    N 1... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE P the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through 1 the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune.     ? 2... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down to REPORT # 5. o    ? 3... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. -    > 4... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3.    > 5... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2.    Q 6... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you m% copy every name & address ACCURATELY!i    N **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on 2 your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. ****    Q Save this on a disk as well, just in case you loose any data. To assist you with  Q marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide eJ you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk O e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more.      7 There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: h    + METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY u    O Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will cK assume you and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also  Q assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much oI better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out I; hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). d    L Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e- mails. With a 0.2% M response, that is only 10 orders for Report #1. Those 10 people responded by  J sending out 5,000 e- mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 M e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's 100 people who responded and r ordered Report #2. b    Q Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 54 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report #3.     O Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails  D sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report #4.     J Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50 million C e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report #5 a    B THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million).     Q Your total income in this example is: 1... $50 + 2... $500 + 3... $5,000 + 4 ... n9 $50,000 + 5... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 t    K NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE  K RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF   MONEY! n    = ------------------------------------------------------------      K REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU VO MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or  O even one-fourth of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are iQ over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many  $ people will do just that, and more!     = ------------------------------------------------------------      1 METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET l    P Advertising on the net is very, very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE Q places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a iP larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # P 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the O Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. -Q This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on oQ it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. 4      - ========= AVAILABLE REPORTS ================  - ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. =- ============================================ l   NOTES: c  9 Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY only) for each Report.1     Checks NOT accepted. e    M Make sure the cash is concealed, by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paperi    ( On one of those sheets of paper, Write:   9 a. The NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, o b. YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and, @ c. YOUR name and postal address. (in case of mail difficulties)     ( PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW:     E REPORT #1 - "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for FREE on the Net"       ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:      Yaraslau Kurmyza 32213 - 13th Place SWr Federal Way, WA 98023l  7 ______________________________________________________ n    D REPORT #2 - "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Net"      ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:      William Hall 500 N. Logan Oakland, NE 68045c  7 ______________________________________________________ t    < REPORT #3 - "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Net"     ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:      M. Hicks 225 Golden Hill St, #4Gs Bridgeport, CT 06604-4106   6 ______________________________________________________  P REPORT #4 - "How to become a Millionaire Utilizing the Power of MLM and the Net"   ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:    Christopher Bakeru 5579 Eastwood Avee  Rancho Cucamonga, CA 91737-2100   6 ______________________________________________________  : REPORT #5 - "How to Send Out One Million e-mails for FREE"   ORDER REPORT #5 FROM:t     Kimikm
 P. O. Box 175l Alta Loma, CA 91701-0175  = ____________________________________________________________ d  Q You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering  P from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND  START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN.< ____________________________________________________________    . $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$     2 Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success:  K === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, k& continue sending e-mails until you do.  J === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should P receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising   or sending e-mails until you do.  M === Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, fM because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to  O roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on D8 the list, you are placed in front of a different report.  H There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!!     1 =================================================s    9 FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: g    O You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rN rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make P more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow I the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works r exceedingly well as it is now.  O Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name oQ and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2......#5 as instructed above. One  M of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your 9N name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the ( more potential customers you will reach.  Q So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity y8 to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!     / ============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================     N "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant Q with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this  L program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the Q whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I  O ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and a sN few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and N was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. P Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within P the next 45 days she had received total $147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was P shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby.'' - Mitchell Wolf, Chicago, Illinois  / ===============================================s  N ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to Q participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial MO investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough  K orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my cQ medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first lQ 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people 2Q live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." -   Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada  / ===============================================   N ''I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I K should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get mE another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone  P else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete K this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came s5 within 22 weeks." - Susan De Suza, New York, New Yorkw  7 =======================================================e  M ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little aQ cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the 2M money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of  N third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanks to 5 the Internet." - Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand e    7 =======================================================tL ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM !7 =======================================================S    0 About 50,000 new people get online every month!     0 _______________________________________________ P FOR YOUR INFORMATION.... If you need help with starting a business, registering N a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local P office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1-(800) 827-5722 K for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service tD offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax 
 requirements.g  Q Under Bill S1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be  P considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method P of removal. This is a one time only e-mail transmission. No request for removal 
 is necessary.s  Q If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of hP Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of % Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C.y   Thank you! g              ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:32:01 -04005 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com>e! Subject: Looking for your opinions* Message-ID: <agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  D This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for yourH opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choirK again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research onlyt$ and is not a commitment from anyone.  K One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times is J that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300G words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJ 0 (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good.  1 What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?b  2 Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far)   Q.    How often? A.    Probably twice a yearE   Q.    What kind of formatgB A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.   Q.    Who could submit articleslH A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,. there would be an acceptance and review cycle.   Q.    What would be the focus K A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination ofs advanced and intro level.l  & Any questions or comments are welcome.  
 Warm Regards,e Sueo   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:27:35 GMTa From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG % Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionp0 Message-ID: <00A10AE5.9D3B03A7@SendSpamHere.ORG>  b In article <agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> writes:E >This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for yourtI >opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choir L >again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research only% >and is not a commitment from anyone.K > L >One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times isK >that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300 H >words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJ1 >(Digital Technical Journal) which was very good.e >T2 >What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal? >13 >Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far)o >L >Q.    How often?  >A.    Probably twice a year  / What was the publication frequency of the DTJs?I     >Q.    What kind of formatC >A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.y  / *PostScript* so that it prints somewhat decent.w      >Q.    Who could submit articlesI >A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone, / >there would be an acceptance and review cycle.  >n >Q.    What would be the focusL >A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of >advanced and intro level.  . Cool.  I need some VMS intro level reading. :)    ' >Any questions or comments are welcome.   # When do you want the first article?Y   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMo            i5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" N   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:37:13 GMTD1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>D% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion . Message-ID: <JXGW8.132732$Uu2.29865@sccrnsc03>  @ "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message$ news:agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com...F > This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for yourJ > opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choirH > again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research only& > and is not a commitment from anyone. >aJ > One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times isL > that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300 > words or less.   Umm, AMEN to that!  8 >If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJ2 > (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good. >r3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?   & Great idea! When is the first issue???   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:51:10 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>r% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion , Message-ID: <3D2B3EAA.F0405DE3@videotron.ca>   Sue Skonetski wrote:3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?   M Would hate it. Totally useless. No customer uses OpenVMS.  On the other hand,o: a VMS Technical Journal would be extremely appreciated :-)   > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a yearp  K How about really moving forwards and instead of having "issues" and "volume N number", why not just publish articles individually as they become available ?K You can then easily have a repertory of articles which you download and notRL have to download the whole "issue". There would also be more timely deliveryM of content since you wouldn't have to wait until you have enough to fill yourk Technical Journal template.V   > Q.    What kind of formateD > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.  M Since it is for VMS, how about Bookreader ???  PDF would do for me because it4J is standard enough. But unless the VMS management gets Adobe to release anI official PDF viewer on VMS (including VAX), some will balk at getting VMSP6 specific stuff in a format that isn't "native" on VMS.  ! > Q.    Who could submit articles J > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle.  M Review would have to be done by the VMS gods/engineers to ensure that what iseM being said is correct. However, that runs the chance of the gods censuring annN article because it describes undicumented features that the gods don't want to	 share :-)e   > Q.    What would be the focuseM > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of  > advanced and intro level.d  N Intro level can be dealt with the VMS FAQ.  Technical Journal should be mediumN to advanced. As an examople of "advanced", perhaps the gods could describe howN VMS will boot from IA64, how devices will become known to VMS on IA64 etc etc.  ( > Any questions or comments are welcome.  7 Are you sure you want me to be in your family ? :-) :-)a   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:38:29 GMTb# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionoD Message-ID: <VYGW8.3387$UHe1.3@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   Sue,  J An excellent idea, the original of which should never have been allowed to	 die, btw.f  I Maybe as a start, think about taking some of the older articles from daysfL gone by, have them reviewed for technical accuracy in light of new features,K bug fixes, new controllers, etc... and publish those as OpenVMS 'Classics'.   E Perhaps these older articles could be organized into Intro & AdvancedeA volumes ... ideal for distribution into .edu environments when HP I **donates** Alphas running OpenVMS to build up the next generation of VMS  specifiers.   I In the interim, you have something valuable out the door in probably lesslI time, some visibility, and it gives new authors and articles time to wend : their way through the writing, peer review, publish cycle.    @ "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message$ news:agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com...F > This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for yourJ > opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choirH > again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research only& > and is not a commitment from anyone. >nJ > One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times isL > that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300I > words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJ 2 > (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good. >e3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?t >I4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >e > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a year- >- > Q.    What kind of format-D > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent. > ! > Q.    Who could submit articlesyJ > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle. >  > Q.    What would be the focuseJ > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of > advanced and intro level.i >-( > Any questions or comments are welcome. >t > Warm Regards,s > Sue  >v >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:57:05 -0700o+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>b% Subject: Re: Looking for your opiniony# Message-ID: <3D2B4011.902@mmaz.com>=  & --------------0805080905040308080406049 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    JF Mezei wrote:s   >>Q.    How often? >>A.    Probably twice a year  >>     >>E If you are talking about resurrecting something like the old VAX/DEC aG professional, I would pay for a monthly subscription but if it is just  < going to be another neutered WinTel sales provda, keep it...   >>Q.    What kind of format.D >>A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent. >>I If not printed, please use a format that is open such as PDF or HTML but  H to limit it to Bookreader would be a mistake, at least for us, since we $ do not use X/DEC windows or VWS...     Regards,   Barry    -- _  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028E      & --------------080508090504030808040604) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit_  ? <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">" <html> <head>I   <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">4   <title></title>_ </head>_ <body> JF Mezei wrote:<br>_A <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid3D2B3EAA.F0405DE3@videotron.ca">o   <pre wrap=""></pre>R   <blockquote type="cite">!     <pre wrap="">Q.    How often?  A.    Probably twice a year0
     </pre>   </blockquote>_   <pre wrap=""><!----></pre>
 </blockquote> R If you are talking about resurrecting something like the old VAX/DEC professional,L I would pay for a monthly subscription but if it is just going to be another, neutered WinTel sales provda, keep it...<br>A <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid3D2B3EAA.F0405DE3@videotron.ca">g   <blockquote type="cite">*     <pre wrap="">Q.    What kind of formatH A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.</pre>   </blockquote>_
 </blockquote> H If not printed, please use a format that is open such as PDF or HTML butJ to limit it to Bookreader would be a mistake, at least for us, since we do* not use X/DEC windows or VWS... &nbsp;<br> <br> Regards,<br> <br>	 Barry<br>=2 <pre class="moz-signature" cols="$mailwrapcol">--   D Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President &amp; CIO    E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Treahy@mmaz.com">Treahy@mmaz.com</a> * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028</pre>f <br> </body>y </html>l  ( --------------080508090504030808040604--   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:58:24 -0400s! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> % Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion & Message-ID: <3D2B4060.4A9AB3A@vcu.edu>  F hhmm..  In reading the answers, I'd go for the html output, article byB article, and one could publish "magazines" by having 'em all in an index.html "wrapper"...e   Sue Skonetski wrote: > F > This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for yourJ > opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choirM > again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research only & > and is not a commitment from anyone. > M > One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times is L > that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300I > words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJd2 > (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good. > 3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?  > 4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >  > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a year  >  > Q.    What kind of formatuD > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent. > ! > Q.    Who could submit articles=J > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle. >  > Q.    What would be the focuscM > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination off > advanced and intro level.t > ( > Any questions or comments are welcome. >  > Warm Regards,' > Suei   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 15:18:34 -0600s- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)I% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinione3 Message-ID: <UN8CeGx8y2kO@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  P In article <00A10AE5.9D3B03A7@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:d > In article <agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> writes:F >>This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for yourJ >>opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choirM >>again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research onlyn& >>and is not a commitment from anyone. >>M >>One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times ishL >>that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300I >>words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJ.2 >>(Digital Technical Journal) which was very good. >>3 >>What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?  >>4 >>Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >> >>Q.    How often? >>A.    Probably twice a yearr > 1 > What was the publication frequency of the DTJs?= >  >  >>Q.    What kind of formataD >>A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent. > 1 > *PostScript* so that it prints somewhat decent.t   Yes, Postscript !I   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 13:26:34 -0700s+ From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>d% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionn' Message-ID: <3D2B46FA.3010909@mmaz.com>e   Jim Agnew wrote:  G >hhmm..  In reading the answers, I'd go for the html output, article by=C >article, and one could publish "magazines" by having 'em all in an  >index.html "wrapper"... >t= Yes, but paper is more functional in the 'reading room' :-)  e  A Besides, who wants to spend another couple hours reading on-line nG journals after spending 8,10,12 hours on a tub working?  I'd rather be  B out by the pool relaxing with a cold one and flipping through the @ journals.  I still receive dozens of weekly and monthly printed F periodicals (non VMS related) but those that have going on-line only, 6 well they've lost me just for the reasons mentioned...   Barry=   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:38:57 -0400m1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>_% Subject: Re: Looking for your opiniono2 Message-ID: <3D2B49E1.832971A5@firstdbasource.com>   Jim Agnew wrote: > H > hhmm..  In reading the answers, I'd go for the html output, article byD > article, and one could publish "magazines" by having 'em all in an > index.html "wrapper"...t >   2 And if you need some place to host it,  I can haveD http://openvms.spacelots.com DNS record and site configured in a few minutes. :)   H If you are also interested, I have a report viewer tool I developed thatC can be easily modified to create the index of all of these articlesaE dynamically so no one will need to keep updating a static index.html.e  B It was originally used by a company that needed a way to view someB 43,000 reports they recieved PER MONTH.  They had a "green screen"H application, but it revolutionized the way some of them worked using theE web-based tool.  BTW, I can also create an install package if someone-. wanted to "purchase" such a viewer that could:  B view the entire document in a browser if < 2Mb. (some were 156Mb.)
 ftp the file.g+ page through the file 600 lines at a time. @F     (Forward worked very well, reverse is still having some problems.), Searching the document - with window control% Print to a printer - local or queued.c  " Hey, a guy has to make a living... -- k Regards,  6 Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19847 First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163h7 Sr. Consultant            http://www.firstdbasource.comtE                           http://www.firstdbasource.com/donation.htmlu/ 704-947-1089 (Office)     704-236-4377 (Mobile)    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:05:55 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>s% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionsG Message-ID: <TeIW8.5198$UHe1.4523@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>n  . "Jim Agnew" <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote in message  news:3D2B4060.4A9AB3A@vcu.edu...H > hhmm..  In reading the answers, I'd go for the html output, article byD > article, and one could publish "magazines" by having 'em all in an > index.html "wrapper"...u    L If it's done in html, set it up with an appropriate 'path' structure so thatI those who have the full version of Adobe Acrobat only have to do Tools ->eG Web Capture -> Open Web Page, enter the url of the 'home' page for each L issue, and then check 'Get pages under same path'. This allows us to get all9 the pages for that issue and convert it into .PDF format.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 14:03:55 -0700"5 From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <My.Full.Name@intel.com> % Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionl) Message-ID: <3D2B4FBB.570F5D94@intel.com>    Sue Skonetski wrote:  3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?i  *     A BIG RESOUNDING YES, THANK YOU M'AM!!  4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >h > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a yearM >i > Q.    What kind of formatfD > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.  ?     I agree with Brian and Larry that Postscript would be best.a: PDF is OK.  HTML would be "frosting on the cake" for quick; reference, but is no substitute for a hardcopy-able format.s  ! > Q.    Who could submit articlesLJ > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle.  A     Sounds good.  Anyone can contribute, but all article reviewed " by experts, sort of journal style.   > Q.    What would be the focus   M > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of  > advanced and intro level.w  C     Intro level is probably not necessary and might be distracting.fG I don't think we're talking about mass-mailing to newbies and managers.nC A Technical journal will appeal to technical professionals who willlA expect more meat, less fat.  Keep it to medium & advanced topics.h       Thanks! Kenf --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken FairfieldV! F20 Automation VMS System Support  kenneth.h.fairfield#intel.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:30:09 -04000- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionR, Message-ID: <3D2B55D7.9EDA5C24@videotron.ca>   Jim Agnew wrote: > H > hhmm..  In reading the answers, I'd go for the html output, article byD > article, and one could publish "magazines" by having 'em all in an > index.html "wrapper"...k  G HTML is palatable for a quick consultation. But not for lengthy serious K articles due to its distributed nature (images, in separate files etc etc). B Also, too much HTML is written with Microsoft stuff which generateL non-compliant HTML. When i find myself having to save the HTML and then editJ it to remove all fixed widths in tables and those pesky Microsoft specificN font sizes that generate unreadable minuscule type, just so it can then reload it and read it.    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:38:47 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> % Subject: RE: Looking for your opinion-T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660812@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   John,p  H Re: older articles .. Excellent idea. I just dusted off my copies of DTJE and there are some great ones that would still apply today.. E.g. How  OpenVMS was adapted for 64bit.  H Here is the pointer to the archived Digital Technical Journal documents:  / http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/e  < And here is the format that these articles are available in: Html, Text, PostScript, Pdfm   :-)o  < As an example of the level of detail, here is an example:=20  5 OpenVMS 64bit design, Spiralog (interesting articles)a: http://www.research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJM00/   Volume 10, Number 1o Programming Languages & Tools"E http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJT00/v10n1-intro.htmw   Regardse  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Servicesn Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----+ From: John Smith [mailto:a@nonymous.com]=20o Sent: July 9, 2002 3:38 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComS% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionf     Sue,  G An excellent idea, the original of which should never have been allowedu to die, btw.  D Maybe as a start, think about taking some of the older articles fromG days gone by, have them reviewed for technical accuracy in light of new A features, bug fixes, new controllers, etc... and publish those as  OpenVMS 'Classics'.   E Perhaps these older articles could be organized into Intro & AdvancedhA volumes ... ideal for distribution into .edu environments when HPsE **donates** Alphas running OpenVMS to build up the next generation of  VMS specifiers.d  D In the interim, you have something valuable out the door in probablyF less time, some visibility, and it gives new authors and articles timeB to wend their way through the writing, peer review, publish cycle.    @ "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message$ news:agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com...I > This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for your=20tG > opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the=20aH > choir again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is=20
 > research only& > and is not a commitment from anyone. >fG > One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS=20e > timeso isH > that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in  C > 300 words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may=20t? > remember DTJ (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good.h >a3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?c >r4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >  > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a yearn >I > Q.    What kind of format D > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent. >s! > Q.    Who could submit articlesxB > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,a0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle. >l > Q.    What would be the focus > > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combinationy of > advanced and intro level.s >e( > Any questions or comments are welcome. >f > Warm Regards,p > Sue. >  >h   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 20:45:08 GMT 3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)r% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion 0 Message-ID: <agfi0k$rdp$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  b In article <agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> writes:2 >What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?   A very good idea!i  3 >Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far)  >y >Q.    How often?  >A.    Probably twice a year  , Maybe, I wouldn't mind it four times a year.   >Q.    What kind of formatC >A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.   L I would prefer a printed copy. This one will lay on my desk and remind me to@ read it. And just browsing is a lot easier in a printed journal.    >Q.    Who could submit articlesI >A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,h/ >there would be an acceptance and review cycle.   O If you think I have to say something I wouldn't mind writing that something ;-).   >Q.    What would be the focusL >A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of >advanced and intro level.  M More advanced than technical. But as it will be the only journal focussing on-N OpenVMS one or the other intro level article could be helpful. It might happen= that you have to show this journal to a (potential) newbie...3M Compared to the amount of gossip in comp.os.vms there is obviously a need for K some philosophical or prophetical articles and of course a reader's corner.   ' >Any questions or comments are welcome.   M Don't miss the corner for uncle VMSix answering important readers' questions.    Regards,    Christoph Gartmannr  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 16:03:04 -0700n+ From: seanobanion@attbi.com (Sean O'Banion)4% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion = Message-ID: <f883d5a4.0207091503.1e154802@posting.google.com>;   Sue,  . Wonderful idea: I hope you get a raise for it!  D I would suggest PDF and HTML with some prudent organization, to helpA search engines index correctly and for low bandwidth system wheret, downloading a whole PDF may be asking a lot.  C The DTJ often would have cross discipline articles that would still.> have some commonality: the MicroVAX II issue that had hardwareF details, and OS and application examples related to it (the effects ofB emulated instructions, I think ... I might actually have kept thatD one).  So, I would be looking for something similar: Itanium detailsE and how they relate to the OS port, and application issues that couldt7 affect a VAX or Alpha port as well as new applications.      Sean  g "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message news:<agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com>...>F > This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for yourJ > opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choirM > again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research only & > and is not a commitment from anyone. > M > One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times is>L > that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300I > words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJI2 > (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good. > 3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?4 > 4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >  > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a year- >  > Q.    What kind of formataD > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent. > ! > Q.    Who could submit articlesoJ > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle. >  > Q.    What would be the focus M > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination ofh > advanced and intro level.  > ( > Any questions or comments are welcome. >  > Warm Regards,  > Sue    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 23:20:06 GMT 4 From: "Andy Bustamante" <a_c_bustamante@bigfoot.com>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion F Message-ID: <GcKW8.10479$A43.1096660@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   Sign me up.   J PDF, we need to be able to share with the rest of the world, HTML is plainK ugly unless you're going to host each issue indefinately.  A basic "hints &n tips" section would make sense..   --   Andy Bustamanteu( remove the ascii-95's to reply by e-mail      @ "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message$ news:agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com...F > This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for yourJ > opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choirH > again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research only& > and is not a commitment from anyone. > J > One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times isL > that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300I > words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJ-2 > (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good. >r3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?: >:4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >n > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a year0 >@ > Q.    What kind of formatdD > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent. >k! > Q.    Who could submit articles.J > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle. >h > Q.    What would be the focus>J > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of > advanced and intro level.a >n( > Any questions or comments are welcome. >e > Warm Regards,r > Suee >S >m >i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:33:06 -0700n% From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>n% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion.) Message-ID: <3D2B8ED2.BE13BF0F@rdrop.com>e   Sue Skonetski wrote: >  > Q.    What kind of formatJD > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.   Plain text via email..   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:24:17 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion , Message-ID: <3D2B8CC0.409D1170@videotron.ca>   Christoph Gartmann wrote:eN > I would prefer a printed copy. This one will lay on my desk and remind me toB > read it. And just browsing is a lot easier in a printed journal.  M The advantage of printed copy is that one can distribute it to others who maymM not be VMS bigots and may help turn the tide against VMS in a shop. Sending aoM document by email or just a link just doesn't have the same impact to impressl as does printed copy.w  N However, I realise that costs for printed copy, as well as time delay are muchM higher, and I would prefer having contents electronically and more frequentlytI than having some hardcopy that may be cut because of budget cutbacks etc.o  M In the past, it seems that every VMS printed endeavour ended up morphing intodJ some wintel sales pitch by the owning company. If this stays electronic, IM feel it may have a better chance of keeping its independance from HP and thust. be more valuable to those who benefit from it.  J If it send as PDF, it can then be printed (colour to those who have colourO printers) and be quite presentable. (another reason I am against HTML content).E   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 01:21:23 GMTi1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> % Subject: Re: Looking for your opiniona' Message-ID: <3D2B9053.EEB53688@fsi.net>.   Sue Skonetski wrote: > [snip]M > One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times iscL > that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300I > words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJa2 > (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good. > 3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?e > 4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >  > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a yearT  F I'd vote for quarterly, with "flash" (special) issues when a "hot" ECO becomes available for download.e   > Q.    What kind of format D > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.  @ I'd vote for a choice: HTML, PS, PDF. I prefer to produce my own	 hardcopy.   ! > Q.    Who could submit articles J > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle.  + Agreed, so long as the feedback is helpful.u   > Q.    What would be the focuslM > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of9 > advanced and intro level.   H Long-time VMS folks might find the intro level stuff distracting, but weG gotta do SOMEthing to get the newbies on board and up to speed. PerhapsaB a "Wizard's Apprentice" section/column/etc. with varying levels of/ "newbie-ness" so folks can find/skip it easily.0  ( > Any questions or comments are welcome.  > Hope this helps. IMHO, *GREAT* idea!!! Kudos as appropriate...   -- 9 David J. Dachterab dba DJE Systems. http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/h   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:31:22 -0700 (PDT). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion @ Message-ID: <20020710023122.94706.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com>   Nice idea !   - But I would like this magazine going togethero. with Oracle Magazine with some Oracle RDB Ads, for example...       Regardso   FC e    1 --- Sue Skonetski <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com>  wrote:5 > This is just some research that I am doing and I amc > looking for your3 > opinion.  And while some of you may say that I amu > preaching to the choir6 > again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family. >  This is research only& > and is not a commitment from anyone. > 1 > One of the things that I noticed when I was thet > editor of  OpenVMS times isn/ > that it was very difficult to convey in depth  > technical information in 3004 > words or less.  If you have been around for awhile > you may remember DTJ2 > (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good. > 3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?d > 4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >  > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a yearn >  > Q.    What kind of formatb3 > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints  > somewhat decent. > ! > Q.    Who could submit articlest6 > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first > reaction is anyone,e0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle. >  > Q.    What would be the focus - > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a ! > technical level, combination of  > advanced and intro level.i > ( > Any questions or comments are welcome. >  > Warm Regards,l > Sue  >  >      =====o ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazile fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?. Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 02:43:22 GMTn# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion-H Message-ID: <ebNW8.13242$UHe1.3862@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  @ "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <My.Full.Name@intel.com> wrote in message# news:3D2B4FBB.570F5D94@intel.com...n >>E >     Intro level is probably not necessary and might be distracting.tI > I don't think we're talking about mass-mailing to newbies and managers. E > A Technical journal will appeal to technical professionals who willoC > expect more meat, less fat.  Keep it to medium & advanced topics.  >   G Have to have something for the newbies, otherwise the bossman will say,MJ "Since there aren't any 'VMS for Dummies' books, what are we going to giveB the whole staff to learn from when we bring that new-fangled AlphaK thing-a-ma-bob into the shop. Remember, our guys grew up on Windows in higheI school and unix in college. They know nothing about VMS. Come to think oftI it, why in the hell did I ever let me talk you into buying this VMS thing0J anyway. We're going to have to spend money training our people, when if weF went with unix they'd already have their experience in college. You'reI fired. Get outta here pronto. We'll clear your desk out for you. Somebodyu call Security!!!"   :-)f  0 Sad, because it's perilously close to the truth.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 02:48:51 GMTo# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>a% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion.G Message-ID: <ngNW8.7633$r2E1.6226@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>i  ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message : news:20020710023122.94706.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com...
 > Nice idea !i >e/ > But I would like this magazine going togetherw0 > with Oracle Magazine with some Oracle RDB Ads, > for example...    K But that sort of thing would require a real commitment from HP. Be thankfulD5 for the crumbs (no offense Sue) being tossed our way.e  L BTW...anyone seen any great OpenVMS ads in Computerworld or Information WeekG lately? No....didn't think so. Come to think of it, I haven't seen any,- great or otherwise.-   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:53:14 -0700 (PDT). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinione@ Message-ID: <20020710025314.70453.qmail@web20208.mail.yahoo.com>   I suggest call it:    # OpenVMS: a Reintroduction !  :-))))o  % When OVMS will complete 30 years ????e   Regardsf   FC n& --- John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote: > 1 > "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <My.Full.Name@intel.com>a > wrote in message% > news:3D2B4FBB.570F5D94@intel.com...u > > 1 > >     Intro level is probably not necessary and  > might be distracting.u5 > > I don't think we're talking about mass-mailing toV > newbies and managers.e0 > > A Technical journal will appeal to technical > professionals who will4 > > expect more meat, less fat.  Keep it to medium & > advanced topics. > >s > 3 > Have to have something for the newbies, otherwise, > the bossman will say,l2 > "Since there aren't any 'VMS for Dummies' books, > what are we going to givef2 > the whole staff to learn from when we bring that > new-fangled Alphag2 > thing-a-ma-bob into the shop. Remember, our guys > grew up on Windows in high5 > school and unix in college. They know nothing aboutk > VMS. Come to think ofl5 > it, why in the hell did I ever let me talk you intom > buying this VMS thingn5 > anyway. We're going to have to spend money training  > our people, when if we5 > went with unix they'd already have their experiencei > in college. You're5 > fired. Get outta here pronto. We'll clear your deske > out for you. SomebodyD > call Security!!!"   :-)a > 2 > Sad, because it's perilously close to the truth. >  >      =====u ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilb fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?. Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 22:53:49 -0600e+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)u% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinione3 Message-ID: <R5b+ALKekHuh@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  \ In article <3D2B3EAA.F0405DE3@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Sue Skonetski wrote:4 >> What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?   >> Q.    What kind of formatE >> A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.o >   @ 	PDF.  Most everything worthy is linked to PDF (most Google hitsA 	on technical articles have URLs linked back to PDF and/or HTML).a    >> Q.    What would be the focusN >> A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of >> advanced and intro level. > . > Intro level can be dealt with the VMS FAQ.     	Yeah.  $ > Technical Journal should be mediumP > to advanced. As an examople of "advanced", perhaps the gods could describe howP > VMS will boot from IA64, how devices will become known to VMS on IA64 etc etc. >   > 	Many areas could be covered in-depth that are newer.  VolShadG 	advances, XFC, Galaxy, Lock Manager advances,  peel through 7.3-1 and  3 	find what is fairly new and that could be a topic.e   				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:55:38 GMTI( From: "Jay E. Morris" <jem@epsilon3.com>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion + Message-ID: <3D2BAFB5.1000803@epsilon3.com>n   Sue Skonetski wrote:F > This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for yourJ > opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choirM > again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research onlyl& > and is not a commitment from anyone. > M > One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times ishL > that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300I > words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJr2 > (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good.. I have the last issue right here on the shelf.   > 3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?k > 4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >  > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a year E Well, I think quarterly.  This group could probably submit enough to n
 fill that.   >  > Q.    What kind of formatrD > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.H Order of value to me: HTML, PDF, PS, Bookreader.  Although I'd like the  book reader anyway.    > ! > Q.    Who could submit articlesnJ > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle.> Agreed.  Anyone should be able to submit, just like any other  professional journal.D   >  > Q.    What would be the focusoM > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of  > advanced and intro level.e5 Exactly.  And tip & tricks articals, secrets of, ....l  ( But absolutely no "Dummies" or "Idiots".   -- t
 Jay E. Morris  jem@epsilon3.comD ANYA: I found one of those 24-hour places for coffee. Remember that F bookstore? Well they became one of those books-and-coffee places, and ? now they're just coffee. It's like evolution, only without the i getting-better part. -----------t   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2002 03:55:30 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionm, Message-ID: <aggb7i01ck1@enews1.newsguy.com>  4 Sue Skonetski <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote:3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?l   I think it would be terrific!!!a  J As for the format, PDF is fine with me, though I agree Postscript would be nice.e   		Zane   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:01:35 GMTI% From: "Alberto" <albertobu@libero.it>V Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...d7 Message-ID: <3yFW8.14601$K_4.354787@twister1.libero.it>   = "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> ha scritto nel messaggiom   CUTI     Calculation:  $ Intel  0.18u (110nm)    0.13u (60nm). Amd 0.18u (110nm-???nm)   0.13u(80nm) Motorola   Intel  110/60==> +83% 7 Amd  110/80==> +40% but Palomino eat 20% so............e  8 Amd's process isn't competitive now, in future.........? Bye. Alberto.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:39:18 +0200 , From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...r4 Message-ID: <3D2B2DD6.39A86042@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>   Alberto wrote:  B > Ummm...... Madison = 1.7-1.8Ghz cpu + 6Mb L3, with 1450+ specintE > and 2430+specfpu, an other class of cpu respect Opteron ( no seriusl > compiler yet ).uM > This numbers are explicit and other consideration are only pessimistic :-).-  A You must be using a different definition of "explicit" than I am.   ; Explicit SPEC numbers are those on the SPEC web pages, i.e.f http://www.spec.org.   All others are speculation :-)   -- 2G Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290a6 Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG  Maartensdijk, The NetherlandsG Maintainer, GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.html E Join GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction)9   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:54:08 -0500, From: "Tony Scandora" <Scandora@cmt.anl.gov> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... + Message-ID: <agfbhu$fue$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov>   5 "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message * news:agcq21$m9m$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...I > In article <57lW8.2157$Raj1.1392@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,c > ...n@ > And, while IBM still dabbles with PowerPC, as far as I know it4 > has lost interest in it.  I can't see it reviving. >iK IBM is doing well with Power4, and has announced Fast Path for the upcominguC Power5 and Power6, the latter expected to replace its venerable 360c> architecture in what's now called the zSeries mainframes.  See+ http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-919690.html.n  K IBM introduced the 360 architecture five or so years before the PDP-11, andyJ it's still powering the very profitable zSeries.  I found the lack of doomG and gloom from old time MVS customers and reporters about the demise ofaI their favorite architecture to be quite a contrast from the customers andsK reporters announcing, mourning, and seeking revenge for the murder of Alphaw  even before EV7 hit the streets.  1 Tony Scandora, Argonne National Lab, 630-252-7541i scandora@cmt.anl.gov   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:25:07 -0400m- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>- Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... , Message-ID: <3D2B3890.BF776B83@videotron.ca>   Alberto wrote:% > Yes but where are x86-64 compilers?.  H Since it would be the same architecture, I would surmise that the HammerM compilers would simply need to be the existing 8086 compilers modified to use  64 bit adresses.  N This isn't as dramatic a change as requiring the compiler to not only generateN new instructions, but also break out the code differently and specifically put# instructions that make use of EPIC.D   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:35:44 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>d Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...A, Message-ID: <3D2B3B0E.BAA245CD@videotron.ca>   Douglas Siebert wrote:G > be very competitive on Linux.  People don't use Windows for FP numberVE > crunching, so the platform of choice for that market will be HP-UX.   J Don't the teenage kids who play all those games on Windows rely heavily on floating point ?  N Don't rendering farms for CG scenes in movies rely heavily on floating point ?+ (many of which currently run on Linux BWT).t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:30:17 GMTm* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...yA Message-ID: <dRGW8.49840$Im2.1766395@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>i  0 "Alberto" <albertobu@libero.it> wrote in message1 news:lnEW8.16059$7N3.351013@twister2.libero.it...  >e? > "Bernd Paysan" <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> ha scritto nel messaggio & news:p12fga.9uo.ln@miriam.mikron.de... > > Nick Maclaren wrote:B > > > Very likely.  Hence my remark.  By the time that the MadisonH > > > reaches 1.8 GHz, it is likely that the Opteron will be at 2.5 GHz,E > > > perhaps 3.0 GHz.  If AMD introduce a large cache version at theoC > > > latter speed, Opteron, too, could reach 1200 SpecInt.  Maybe.3 > >5F > > I thought the current Athlons (at 1.8GHz, end 0.18u/initial 0.13u) should) > > already be in the ~700 SpecInt range.S  J Nothing yet posted at spec.org for the 1.8 GHz 2200+.  The 1.733 GHz 2100+5 (in a 180 nm process IIRC) yields results of 720/749.o  G If Hammer (in 64-bit mode) really does yield as much as a 40% per-clockyF SPECint improvement (as the numbers below suggest), that would put itsG SPECint2K values at just over 1000 at the same 1.733 GHz clock rate, or?H about 1200 if Hammer debuts as planned at 2 GHz.  1200 is still over 10%L under the target implied a while ago, so does not seem all that unrealistic.  %  The Hammer has several improvements, 6 > > which should give about 25% per-clock improvement. >e > In all application? :-).  G Don't be silly, it's of course an average.  The move to the low-latencyeK on-chip memory controller (which is claimed to improve performance by 20%),,I the improved branch-prediction unit and larger TLB (IIRC IPC has improvedeJ slightly in other ways as well, but the claimed total improvement is aboutK 5%), and (in 64-bit mode) the doubling of the number of processor registersdK (use of 64-bit mode overall is claimed to improve performance another 10% -c/ 15% over 32-bit mode) come immediately to mind.e   >b > > Also, it's a SOI chip,I > > which reduces gate delay by about 30% - and since other things didn'tw3 > > change much, you can expect a 30% higher clock.  >s5 > I don't expect over a 10-15% higher clock with Soi.,  H Given that the 180 nm Athlons are already running at 1.733 GHz, and thatH Hammer is said to be debuting in a next-generation 130 nm process (*and*J moving to SOI as well), and that Hammer has two additional pipeline stagesJ (to remove frequency-scaling roadblocks in the decoding phases), expectingC Hammer to be able to clock to *well* over 2 GHz seems, well, pretty2
 conservative.4   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:57:47 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh....A Message-ID: <%eHW8.107267$vq.5306398@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>h  3 "Alberto" <uapalbertobu@libero.it> wrote in messagea1 news:R2DW8.15719$7N3.345305@twister2.libero.it...o > ? > "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> ha scritto nel messaggior   ...i  A > > If the Madison runs at 1.7-1.8 GHz and delivers 1450+ SpecInt A > > and 2430+ SpecFP within 12 months, I shall be most impressed.gA > > I suspect that 1.5 GHz and 1200 SpecInt on HP systems and 950 ; > > on Intel ones at this time next year is more plausible.n >m2 > 1.8Ghz, i think, is the target for 0.13u process  L Ah, you mean like 1.4 GHz was the target for McKinley in 0.18 micron (I evenH saw 1.5 GHz mentioned at one point)?  And then 1.2 GHz?  But now 1.0 GhzL seems to be sufficiently difficult to reach that they're binning out 900 MHz< low-end units to use up the parts that don't make the grade.  J 1.4 GHz seems a much more likely introduction speed for Madison.  PossiblyC 1.5 GHz if moving to a copper process helps enough.  2.0 GHz soundsiL reasonable for Montecito at introduction.  Both will likely creep up *after*H introduction (unless Montecito appears soon enough that tweaking Madison doesn't make sense).   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:31:44 GMT 4 From: David Mosberger-Tang <David.Mosberger@acm.org> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...o. Message-ID: <ugptxwrhg7.fsf@panda.mostang.com>  W >>>>> On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:57:02 -0400, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> said:=  C   JF> Since one needs special compilers to use EPIC's potential for_;   JF> performance, what will happen to all the applicationsrF   JF> (especially public domain) that are designed to be compiled with   JF> GNU compilers ?M  F I'm not sure what you mean by "special compilers".  Intel is certainlyF working hard to make their compiler a solid and viable option for ia64F (both linux and windows).  The Intel compiler supports pretty much allB the sane GCC extensions, so switching compilers is rather easy forA most open source applications.  At the moment, I'd still rate GCC F higher for stability, but the Intel compiler has certainly come a longC way from being a pure SPEC compiler.  From my perspective, the onlymC real downside is that the Intel compiler isn't available at no coste? (not if you want to distribute binaries compiled with the Intely compiler, at least).  E   JF> Will GNU compilers be made to adapt to IA64's EPIC requirements F   JF> or will they just generate "vanilla" code that will greatly slow   JF> down the chip ?   B GCC has been available for ia64 for a while and on integer code itA performs OK.  For floating-point intensive code it doesn't reallyv? stand much of a chance against the compilers from Intel and HP.n  E There is an interesting competition going on between GCC and the OpentB Research Compiler (ORC), which is based on a GCC front-end and theD open-sourced SGI backend technology.  Most people seem to agree thatB ORC has a better infrastructure for modern architectures (not justB EPIC) but on the other hand, GCC certainly has more momentum and aA much larger user base.  It will be interesting to watch how theseg* projects evolve over the next year or two.   	--david   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 20:15:10 GMTs( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...m0 Message-ID: <agfg8e$74l$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  / In article <uim6ghm92mjec6@news.supernews.com>, & Gavin Scott <gavin@allegro.com> wrote: >Nick wrote: > G >> HP's "buy online" for the USA has only the zx2000 (plus its 6 MerceduG >> configurations) and says "There is no stock currently available" fore >> all of them.p >M >You might find more info at:m >o# >   https://www.e-solutions.hp.com/. >mH >which lets you configure and price all the new I2 systems.  The optionsE >are rather limited it seems, especially in terms of choosing a videomI >card for the workstation models, but for HP this is way more informationp+ >than you used to be able to get online :-)i  ? Thanks.  It does list them, but is so gruesomely painful that Ii< have so far failed to get to the end of it.  What chimpanzee? designed that form?  I shall try to remember to try at a time I ( am on a fast link and the USA is asleep.  ? Assuming that you don't get the answer "not orderable" when you.> get to the end, it appears that there is a discrepancy between( that page and HP's main Web pages.  Odd.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679.   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:36:44 +0000 (UTC)/ From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>m Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... 3 Message-ID: <1026247005.863801@haldjas.folklore.ee>n  ; In comp.arch JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:e > Nick Maclaren wrote:@ >> If McKinley has failed to establish by then, Madison may also: >> fail to establish, and the IA-64 project will collapse. > N > IA64 won't collapse. It would simply be scaled back to the Alpha scale whereO > it becomes a proprietary low volume chip used by HP to run HP-UX and NSK (and' > VMS if still alive).  Q Well, in this scenario, ia64 does collapse - it would be more effective for hp toeV continue using hp-pa and mips for hp-ux/nsk and to just migrate everybody still around% to hp-pa / hp-ux from alpha instead. =   > P > If IA64 doesn't take off in sufficient volumes, it will be most interesting toR > see Microsoft's reaction with regards to continued Windows availability on IA64.   -- _ 	Sander_   +++ Out of cheese error +++u   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:39:29 +0000 (UTC)/ From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>0 Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...@2 Message-ID: <1026247171.27993@haldjas.folklore.ee>  1 In comp.arch Alberto <albertobu@libero.it> wrote:e > % > Yes but where are x86-64 compilers?F  @ You don't really need them - x86-64 processors will be very fast@ even in 32 bit mode. They will just be faster in 64 bit mode for apps that are recompiled.W  * > Do you hope a Intel 6.0 C++ for x86-64 ? > Sorry don't exist.  C T%his assumes intel can't make more money from it than from ia64...o   > Bye.
 > Alberto. >  >    --   	Sanderh   +++ Out of cheese error +++/   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:39:08 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... , Message-ID: <3D2B57F1.1FA2061F@videotron.ca>   Sander Vesik wrote:hS > Well, in this scenario, ia64 does collapse - it would be more effective for hp totX > continue using hp-pa and mips for hp-ux/nsk and to just migrate everybody still around& > to hp-pa / hp-ux from alpha instead.  L No. By the time Intel admits that IA64 won't become industry standard and isN relegated to HP's proprietary chip, HP will have already migrated all its eggsL onto IA64 and at that point, it makes more sense to continue to develop IA64> than to go to whatever other architecture exists at that time.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 23:30:01 +0200p, From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...i4 Message-ID: <3D2B55D9.EDADCD30@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>   David Mosberger-Tang wrote:a  G >   JF> Will GNU compilers be made to adapt to IA64's EPIC requirements H >   JF> or will they just generate "vanilla" code that will greatly slow >   JF> down the chip ?c > D > GCC has been available for ia64 for a while and on integer code itC > performs OK.  For floating-point intensive code it doesn't really A > stand much of a chance against the compilers from Intel and HP.l  F One of the reasons for this is that "floating-point intensive code" inB the context of SPEC, this often (though not always) means "Fortran code".  C Recently, I observed that we're losing no-aliasing information wheno@ compiling Fortran code.  This means that unrolling loop code andD renaming registers (to use all those nice 128 fp registers) won't be effective using g77.  D I'm planning to take a look at this my coming holiday (even though I0 myself am more interested in Alpha performance).   -- uG Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290t6 Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG  Maartensdijk, The NetherlandsG Maintainer, GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.htmllE Join GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction)f   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:42:53 +0000 (UTC)A From: "Rupert Pigott" <dark.try-eating-this.b00ng@btinternet.com>c Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...n/ Message-ID: <agflct$778$1@venus.btinternet.com>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2B3B0E.BAA245CD@videotron.ca... > Douglas Siebert wrote:I > > be very competitive on Linux.  People don't use Windows for FP numberfG > > crunching, so the platform of choice for that market will be HP-UX.o >tL > Don't the teenage kids who play all those games on Windows rely heavily on > floating point ?  E If you take Tom's hardware as a reference it appears that framebufferRF bandwidth and AGP bandwidth are the key limiting factors on that stuffE at the moment. I doubt that will change either, the Graphics hardwarehH vendors make their money from moving work from the CPU to their silicon.  E Those same vendors seem to have the most sway in the APIs too, so theoF APIs will favour *more* work moving towards the display subsystem. ForF what work is vaguely affected by the CPU the memory subsystem seems to be the critical factor..   Cheers,- Rupert   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 22:05:38 GMTu( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...00 Message-ID: <agfmni$bmm$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  , In article <3D2B57F1.1FA2061F@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:. >Sander Vesik wrote:T >> Well, in this scenario, ia64 does collapse - it would be more effective for hp toY >> continue using hp-pa and mips for hp-ux/nsk and to just migrate everybody still aroundv' >> to hp-pa / hp-ux from alpha instead.. > M >No. By the time Intel admits that IA64 won't become industry standard and ismO >relegated to HP's proprietary chip, HP will have already migrated all its eggs M >onto IA64 and at that point, it makes more sense to continue to develop IA64n? >than to go to whatever other architecture exists at that time.:  A Back in 1994, the reason that HP got into bed with Intel was that ? HP did not have the resources to develop and market PA-RISC 3.0e? (later IA-64) on its own.  Nothing has changed in that respect.2? If IA-64 folds within the next year, HP should still be able to6= back off to PA-RISC.  The nightmare scenario is Intel cannings! IA-64 18-24 months down the line./     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679a   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 22:08:19 GMTa( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...e0 Message-ID: <agfmsj$bnu$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  4 In article <3D2B55D9.EDADCD30@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>,. Toon Moene  <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> wrote: >David Mosberger-Tang wrote: >aH >>   JF> Will GNU compilers be made to adapt to IA64's EPIC requirementsI >>   JF> or will they just generate "vanilla" code that will greatly slowm >>   JF> down the chip ? >> tE >> GCC has been available for ia64 for a while and on integer code itcD >> performs OK.  For floating-point intensive code it doesn't reallyB >> stand much of a chance against the compilers from Intel and HP. >rG >One of the reasons for this is that "floating-point intensive code" inoC >the context of SPEC, this often (though not always) means "Fortrant >code".   C For reasons related to the C language that we all know.  Yes.  This 6 may change as C99 and restrict become more widespread.  D >Recently, I observed that we're losing no-aliasing information whenA >compiling Fortran code.  This means that unrolling loop code andcE >renaming registers (to use all those nice 128 fp registers) won't be1 >effective using g77.F  ! Gug.  That is BAD news for IA-64.-  E >I'm planning to take a look at this my coming holiday (even though Ir1 >myself am more interested in Alpha performance).4  9 It is pretty important for that - but critical for IA-64!u     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:57:06 GMTt% From: "Alberto" <albertobu@libero.it>  Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... 7 Message-ID: <6TJW8.16340$K_4.400350@twister1.libero.it><  = "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio   C > Back in 1994, the reason that HP got into bed with Intel was that A > HP did not have the resources to develop and market PA-RISC 3.0mA > (later IA-64) on its own.  Nothing has changed in that respect.eA > If IA-64 folds within the next year, HP should still be able too? > back off to PA-RISC.  The nightmare scenario is Intel canning # > IA-64 18-24 months down the line.l   You are formidable :-).i+ Intel touch steel when you speek heheheheh.-        ^^^^^  (an italian ''scaramanzia'')2 Bye. Alberto.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:24:15 GMT./ From: Andrew Reilly <andrew@gurney.reilly.home>p Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... A Message-ID: <P8LW8.419482$o66.1136863@news-server.bigpond.net.au>@  8 On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:41:44 +1000, Nick Maclaren wrote:    C > In article <sxBW8.15370$7N3.339230@twister2.libero.it>, "Alberto" " > <uapalbertobu@libero.it> writes:B > |> "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio > |>  B > |> > Most observers believe that serious Opteron servers will beG > |> > available by March 2003, and that the performance will be bettersJ > |> > than the McKinley for most work, though worse for number crunching.I > |> > If McKinley has failed to establish by then, Madison may also faild9 > |> > to establish, and the IA-64 project will collapse.p > |> fI > |> Ummm...... Madison = 1.7-1.8Ghz cpu + 6Mb L3, with 1450+ specint anddD > |> 2430+specfpu, an other class of cpu respect Opteron ( no serius > |> compiler yet ).? > |> This numbers are explicit and other consideration are onlywG > |> pessimistic :-). Itanium do not collapse, shure. Give him 2 years.o > D > I said better than the McKinley.  My current guess is a SpecInt ofI > 800-900 in x86-64 mode and 700-800 in IA-32 mode in 1Q03. But time willa > tell.s  D Are those figures (700-800 specint in IA-32 mode) achievable with anG in-order IA-32 translator, or are you suspecting that the IA-32 wart ise> an all-singing out-of-order implementation, even given an EPICF substructure?  How would those IA-32 figures compare to those for SPEC/ binaries compiled for PIII or P4, do you think?a  D Has anything been published about the microarchitecture of the IA-32 emulator/core?  G If there's a fully out-of-order IA-32 engine on the chip, how much moreoH effort would it take to turn IA-64 into a 128 register out-of-order RISCH chip?  That would be formidable, no?  All of the other architectures are register-count constrained.I   -- Andrew   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 01:20:03 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... ; Message-ID: <7ZLW8.8$iX5.16306@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>n  < "Andrew Reilly" <andrew@gurney.reilly.home> wrote in message; news:P8LW8.419482$o66.1136863@news-server.bigpond.net.au...g: > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:41:44 +1000, Nick Maclaren wrote: >t >sE > > In article <sxBW8.15370$7N3.339230@twister2.libero.it>, "Alberto"c$ > > <uapalbertobu@libero.it> writes:D > > |> "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> ha scritto nel messaggio > > |>D > > |> > Most observers believe that serious Opteron servers will beI > > |> > available by March 2003, and that the performance will be better-L > > |> > than the McKinley for most work, though worse for number crunching.K > > |> > If McKinley has failed to establish by then, Madison may also failb; > > |> > to establish, and the IA-64 project will collapse.i > > |>K > > |> Ummm...... Madison = 1.7-1.8Ghz cpu + 6Mb L3, with 1450+ specint and0F > > |> 2430+specfpu, an other class of cpu respect Opteron ( no serius > > |> compiler yet ).A > > |> This numbers are explicit and other consideration are onlyeI > > |> pessimistic :-). Itanium do not collapse, shure. Give him 2 years.  > >tF > > I said better than the McKinley.  My current guess is a SpecInt ofK > > 800-900 in x86-64 mode and 700-800 in IA-32 mode in 1Q03. But time will2	 > > tell.n >1F > Are those figures (700-800 specint in IA-32 mode) achievable with anI > in-order IA-32 translator, or are you suspecting that the IA-32 wart is @ > an all-singing out-of-order implementation, even given an EPIC > substructure?H  L I think you misunderstood:  the numbers Nick was suggesting (which I suspectH should be increased by at least 40%) were for x86-64 (i.e., Hammer), notK IA64.  I *am* quite curious to see whether Merced's IA32 performance (whichnJ was far worse even than its poor IA64 performance) got boosted by anythingJ like the order of magnitude it would take to make running IA32 binaries on" McKinley a reasonable proposition.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:23:40 GMTF4 From: David Mosberger-Tang <David.Mosberger@acm.org> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... . Message-ID: <ugy9cktx2f.fsf@panda.mostang.com>  f >>>>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:17:22 +0000 (UTC), dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net (Douglas Siebert) said:  C   Douglas> IA64's problem is that its performance advantage is mostiD   Douglas> significant for FP (which far fewer server customers careE   Douglas> about than int) and it won't be very competitive on Linux.t  @ That would be news to me.  Note that the highest reported SPECfpC number is precisely for Linux (which is a first in and of itself, I E believe).  Also, PNL seems to be quite happy with Linux on Itanium 2:   S  http://www.emsl.pnl.gov:2080/capabs/mscf/?/capabs/mscf/hardware/results_hpcs2.htmle  / As far as I know, PNL uses the Intel compilers.o   	--david   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 18:00:43 GMTp( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts0 Message-ID: <agf8cb$1en$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  2 In article <NYEW8.33$216.590970@news.cpqcorp.net>,4 Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:M >Frankly, I couldn't tell you if there is a HP-UX-specific C/C++ compiler.  ItJ >was under the impression that the Intel compiler and the MS compiler were >the ones everyone used.  @ Then I suggest that you quote performance figures based on them,? and do not flame me when I point out that the figures quoted byc; HP on Monday are not what most McKinley customers will get.R  I >In the VMS case, we have a number of compilers required for the OS.  ThenM >initial ones are based on the DEC developed GEM back end, and the DEC/Compaq L >compiler front ends.   Why?  Well, for compatability for the most part.  So6 >right now it doesn't matter even if HP had their own.  D That is precisely what you said at the OpenVMS forum and, yes, right@ now it doesn't matter.  What surprised me was that the strategic@ direction seemed to be out-of-house, lower performance compilers@ based on Intel's technology rather than HP's.  You may well have% good reasons, but they didn't emerge.l  H >Long term, the C/C++ compiler would be the one from Intel, and Intel isK >making changes in it needed for VMS as well.  Long term, I expect that thefJ >Intel compiler will be the best compiler - especially knowing some of theJ >people that we sent them (and at least one was almost immediately made an >Intel Fellow).i  E Hmm.  There is an old joke about a Scotsman who emigrated to England,P3 raising the average intelligence of both countries.a     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679t   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 18:04:04 GMTo( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts0 Message-ID: <agf8ik$1h5$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  2 In article <baFW8.34$p26.652387@news.cpqcorp.net>,4 Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:@ >Not confusion for ISV's, just more FUD from SAndy our proud Sun >spokesperson.  6 Well, speaking as a consultant for ISV's, he is right.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:17:30 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>l4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts2 Message-ID: <_MFW8.35$fY5.389146@news.cpqcorp.net>  " Nick Maclaren wrote in message ...3 >In article <NYEW8.33$216.590970@news.cpqcorp.net>,y5 >Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: K >>Frankly, I couldn't tell you if there is a HP-UX-specific C/C++ compiler.  ItK >>was under the impression that the Intel compiler and the MS compiler were  >>the ones everyone used.- >fA >Then I suggest that you quote performance figures based on them,t@ >and do not flame me when I point out that the figures quoted by< >HP on Monday are not what most McKinley customers will get. >_  L They'll be the ones that buy the system from HP.  I'm kind-of hoping most of them *are* HP customers.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 18:17:22 GMT ( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts0 Message-ID: <agf9bi$209$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  2 In article <WSEW8.31$026.630907@news.cpqcorp.net>,4 Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:# >Nick Maclaren wrote in message ...f >>D >>I said explicitly that I think that they AREN'T lying, but that it4 >>cannot yet be ruled out.  Please reread the above. >sM >I did.  Your statements were designed to imply that HP might be lying, in antL >effort to discount the credibility of the numbers.  What would you say if IK >wrote:  "There is this fellow "XX" in the UK who writes in newsgroups, andfK >who is a lying bag of wind.  It remains to be seen if his fellow contryman3I >"NM" who recently wrote in the same newsgroup also stoops to his level."n >oJ >See.  I didn't call you anything.  But I implyed that by association, you) >would certainly be capable of something.   A Sigh.  If I had got together with (say) Jeffery Archer and posted.< a claim about a matter which we were jointly engaged in, youB would be perfectly justified in being suspicious that I was lying.7 My previous reputation would be sullied by association.n  E >>All of that is true.  But it is also true that it is much harder torC >>get performance out of it than out of many other chips.  And that-B >>is a relevant point to those of us who have to work with limitedA >>effort, horrible applications and source not under our control.- > M >Is it?  Perhaps the guys at HP are just better at designing for performance. H >It also sounds to me that if the compiler is really a large part of theK >issue (and I tend to doubt it, knowing some of the compiler people that we ? >sent to Intel) then I guess the companies who are supplying SWlI >binaries/objects should get themselves HP systems to do the compiles on.   A I have news for you.  It isn't possible to run the HP-UX compileroE under Linux or even compile binaries under HP-UX for use under Linux, ? at least not using a normal HP licence and if you want support.lA And that applies even to HP supplied and supported Linux systems,i@ which have several (unrelated) performance advantages over HP-UX ones.t  F >>I will.  And you are misremembering.  It isn't hard to select a goodE >>testimonial if you are prepared to choose the best out of hundreds.o >tK >Sure.  Nonetheless, my point is that "some" people want to create a movingrH >bar, so that as each possible complaint/suspicion is answered, they canH >continually not be satisfied.  At least put a stake in the ground as toK >exactly what it will take... and perhaps that is even having the system inoL >your hands running your code.  I believe that if you had the system in yourK >hands, and it did perform flawlessly - you would concede that despite it's K >potential faults, it was a good system.  There are others in here who willKJ >probably stop writing in these groups before they make such a concession.  B That is true.  But, as a statistician, I am very dubious about all> figures that are selected by someone who has a mahor financial interest in biassing them.  F >>|> Well, it's orderable.  So order one.  Or wait until you can get a	 >deliveryaM >>|> date on your order.  If the Spec figures hold up, and the prices are notWK >>|> "articifical" - it looks like you would get a respectable UNIX (HP-UX)  >and a  >>|> fast box, for a good price. >>D >>Oh, is it?  I tried to get a quote, just this morning.  Nope.  NotA >>on our list.  And got the same response from HP's "buy online".  >dJ >Hmm.  That is suprising.  I didn't follow the links all the way to makingK >the purchase, but it all seemed to be on the web site.  I assume/hope that L >it's just a screw up someplace.  I know that we are now working on our planC >to start buying them and dumping the Itanium-1's we were using fora
 >development.h  B It does seem that is likely.  I shall check a bit further and see.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:32:22 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>f4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <3D2B3A43.995C41B9@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:J > In the VMS case, we have a number of compilers required for the OS.  TheN > initial ones are based on the DEC developed GEM back end, and the DEC/CompaqM > compiler front ends.   Why?  Well, for compatability for the most part.  Soo7 > right now it doesn't matter even if HP had their own.   L Did I hear this right ? The "real" DEC compilers have been ported to IA64 to allow you to compile VMS ?  F I am totally confused. One hears news of Compaq having donated all itsN compiler and compiler people to Intel and that from now On, compilers on AlphaM would only get minimal maintenance and that VMS would rely on Intel compilerscN for IA64. Then we hear news that some of the Digital compiler people are stillM with Compaq (now HP). Now you tell me that some of the Digital compilers wereoH ported to IA64 and that this is what you're using to port VMS initially.  M Is there some document that CLEARLY explains exeactly what the compiler story  REALLY is ?:   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:39:41 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <3D2B3BFA.BC5ADFD8@videotron.ca>   Nick Maclaren wrote:B > Then I suggest that you quote performance figures based on them,A > and do not flame me when I point out that the figures quoted byt= > HP on Monday are not what most McKinley customers will get.p  L Since IA64 is currently still poised to be mostly HP's chip, much like AlphaM was Digital's stating that most IA64 customers would be running HP's compilerd might not be wrong.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:41:13 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <3D2B3C55.373AD663@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:N > They'll be the ones that buy the system from HP.  I'm kind-of hoping most of > them *are* HP customers.  K While I understand what you may have meant, that same statement can also be M interpreted that you hope IA64 is a failure and remains HP's proprietary chipi# that isn't used much outside of HP.7   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:47:12 GMTa* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsB Message-ID: <45HW8.646871$%y.39885907@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:SeCW8.25$8Y5.382042@news.cpqcorp.net... >   > Bill Todd wrote in message ... >. > > ...2 >3' > You want some cheese with your whine?- >-I > Oh my, Itanium-2 doesn't suck.  Let me see if I can throw in a bunch of D > other unsupported speculation to show why I wasn't wrong, or maybe	 someone's0G > lying, or maybe the Intel reference platform won't be as fast as HP'shL > system, or anyway - it will still suck later.  And if that isn't enough, IH > can always complain that the mythical EV8 would still have kicked it's ass.  H You're starting to sound like a confirmed shit-head, Fred.  If you don't, care to respond to specifics, just fuck off.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:57:25 GMTn# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsF Message-ID: <FeHW8.3647$UHe1.681@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message9 news:W8EW8.339218$6m5.352724@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...r >l? > "Paul Winalski" <prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com> wrote in message95 > news:3d2b0c4c.2649685205@proxy.news.easynews.com... J > > On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 03:04:08 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote: > >NH > > >My bet is that HP will NOT publish any SPEC performance numbers for EV68 > or	 > > >EV7." > > >cK > > >Why, you ask? Because they have no need to. And why would they want to  > make> > > >their multi-billion dollar investment in Itanic look bad? > >tH > > I think you're right about this.  Alpha is conspicuously absent from7 > > the performance charts published at the HP website.s > >e? > > From a marketing standpoint, it makes no sense for HP to besA > > showcasing Alpha performance.  Why promote a CPU architectureaD > > that you're trying to shut down?  Especially when it would stealJ > > the limelight from the architecture you're touting as its replacement.F > > From HP's perspective, there is no reason to promote Alpha.  ThoseG > > who are stuck with the Alpha platform will buy it because they have I > > no choice.  By throwing all its promotional effort behind Itanium, HP08 > > hopes to lure those who do have a choice to Itanium. > >eI > > I therefore fully expect to see Alpha studiously ignored from now on.v > >w > J > Umm, when the ES80 and GS1280 come out, do you think they will be devoid ofJ > performance metrics? And what of the 1.25GHz ES45 and GS320 due out in a > month or so?    C IMHO, HP will show some 'non-published' numbers to those *existing*4B customers who are likely candidates to need more Alpha horsepower.  L Since HP does *NOT* sell to *new* non-VMS customers any longer (a paraphraseK of their words), why should they go to the effort of pointing out that they2F bought a superior (albeit, dead) technology that obviates the need forG Itanic. Mustn't forget that they've "burned their bridges behind them".w     I can see the ads now:K "Our dead processor family beats the pants off the new crap we're trying toe stuff down your throats."M   or  E "You'll just love spending money porting your applications, data, andnG 3rd-party software licenses to our new underperforming processor line."L   and8  6 "Larry Ellison will charge you twice as much to do the1      same amount of work on Itanic vs. Alpha EV7. 4   HP - always thinking about the bottom line. Ours."   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 20:02:39 GMT"( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts0 Message-ID: <agffgv$6lo$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  , In article <3D2B3BFA.BC5ADFD8@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:f >Nick Maclaren wrote:rC >> Then I suggest that you quote performance figures based on them,hB >> and do not flame me when I point out that the figures quoted by> >> HP on Monday are not what most McKinley customers will get. >-M >Since IA64 is currently still poised to be mostly HP's chip, much like AlphasN >was Digital's stating that most IA64 customers would be running HP's compiler >might not be wrong.  ? HP's IA-64 announcement referred to 3 operating systems: HP-UX,c> Linux and some sort of Microsoft product.  It has at least two? others under development: VMS and NSK.  Microsoft has said thatx< it is developing .NET.  As far as I know, HP's compilers are: available only for HP-UX, and that is not going to change.  > In particular, this is comp.os.vms, and VMS has been stated to= be planned NOT to use HP's compiler.  I think that I am beingr: fairly reasonable in pointing out that performance figures> obtainable only with HP's compilers aren't what customers will get.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679g   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 20:11:58 GMTo( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts0 Message-ID: <agfg2e$72h$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  F In article <FeHW8.3647$UHe1.681@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>," John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote: >tD >IMHO, HP will show some 'non-published' numbers to those *existing*C >customers who are likely candidates to need more Alpha horsepower.o >aM >Since HP does *NOT* sell to *new* non-VMS customers any longer (a paraphraseiL >of their words), why should they go to the effort of pointing out that theyG >bought a superior (albeit, dead) technology that obviates the need for H >Itanic. Mustn't forget that they've "burned their bridges behind them".  B Is that so, indeed?  That could explain a great deal.  Do you have a reference to those words?i     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 3346792   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:23:24 GMTK* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsA Message-ID: <0DHW8.50579$Im2.1803999@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>o  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:_MFW8.35$fY5.389146@news.cpqcorp.net... >d$ > Nick Maclaren wrote in message ...5 > >In article <NYEW8.33$216.590970@news.cpqcorp.net>, 7 > >Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: C > >>Frankly, I couldn't tell you if there is a HP-UX-specific C/C++d	 compiler.  > IyH > >>was under the impression that the Intel compiler and the MS compiler were > >>the ones everyone used.f > >eC > >Then I suggest that you quote performance figures based on them,,B > >and do not flame me when I point out that the figures quoted by> > >HP on Monday are not what most McKinley customers will get. > >H >aK > They'll be the ones that buy the system from HP.  I'm kind-of hoping most, of > them *are* HP customers.   Can't have it both ways, Fred.  G If most McKinley customers are HP customers, then any claim to being anaF 'industry standard' will be pure myth and, just as Dell did, the otherE vendors currently pledging to support the platform will withdraw thatbC support:  not only will supporting it not be worth their while, butVK withdrawing support will help to damage their HP competition (by making thec' platform's 'proprietary' nature clear).   L OTOH, if most McKinley customers *aren't* HP customers, then unless HP makesK its compilers and chip sets available to other vendors and OSs McKinley andEJ its descendants won't be as attractive to most of the world as the HP SPEC results would suggest.  G So if HP indeed enjoys a significant (proprietary) advantage due to itsmI compilers and chip set, it will have to decide whether to exploit it (and I likely in the process limit acceptance of the underlying processor by the2E rest of the industry) or make those components available to the worldML (boosting Intel's fortunes and - perhaps - its own as well:  kind of reminds  me of supply-side economics...).   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:22:37 GMT:# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsG Message-ID: <hCHW8.4024$UHe1.2767@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>a  5 "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in messagee* news:agfg2e$72h$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...H > In article <FeHW8.3647$UHe1.681@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,$ > John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote: > >-F > >IMHO, HP will show some 'non-published' numbers to those *existing*E > >customers who are likely candidates to need more Alpha horsepower.  > >sD > >Since HP does *NOT* sell to *new* non-VMS customers any longer (a
 paraphraseI > >of their words), why should they go to the effort of pointing out thats theyI > >bought a superior (albeit, dead) technology that obviates the need forrJ > >Itanic. Mustn't forget that they've "burned their bridges behind them". > D > Is that so, indeed?  That could explain a great deal.  Do you have > a reference to those words?o    I It was in a bunch of stuff that came out in early May...said something tohI the effect of 'OpenVMS will be continued to be sold to existing customerssK and *selected* new accounts'. I will attempt to find the reference for you.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:27:08 GMT-1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>s4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts. Message-ID: <wGHW8.450076$352.70892@sccrnsc02>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message@ news:FeHW8.3647$UHe1.681@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... >o> > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message; > news:W8EW8.339218$6m5.352724@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...  > >>A > > "Paul Winalski" <prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com> wrote in messageu7 > > news:3d2b0c4c.2649685205@proxy.news.easynews.com...gL > > > On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 03:04:08 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote: > > >IJ > > > >My bet is that HP will NOT publish any SPEC performance numbers for > EV68 > > or > > > >EV7.n > > > >mJ > > > >Why, you ask? Because they have no need to. And why would they want to > > make@ > > > >their multi-billion dollar investment in Itanic look bad? > > > J > > > I think you're right about this.  Alpha is conspicuously absent from9 > > > the performance charts published at the HP website.a > > >eA > > > From a marketing standpoint, it makes no sense for HP to beoC > > > showcasing Alpha performance.  Why promote a CPU architecturepF > > > that you're trying to shut down?  Especially when it would stealL > > > the limelight from the architecture you're touting as its replacement.H > > > From HP's perspective, there is no reason to promote Alpha.  ThoseI > > > who are stuck with the Alpha platform will buy it because they havenK > > > no choice.  By throwing all its promotional effort behind Itanium, HPt: > > > hopes to lure those who do have a choice to Itanium. > > >iK > > > I therefore fully expect to see Alpha studiously ignored from now on.  > > >  > >oL > > Umm, when the ES80 and GS1280 come out, do you think they will be devoid > ofL > > performance metrics? And what of the 1.25GHz ES45 and GS320 due out in a > > month or so? >n > E > IMHO, HP will show some 'non-published' numbers to those *existing*eD > customers who are likely candidates to need more Alpha horsepower.  E Well, they seem to be spending a lot of time and effort on EV7/Marvel ( performance characterization these days.   >hC > Since HP does *NOT* sell to *new* non-VMS customers any longer (at
 paraphraseH > of their words), why should they go to the effort of pointing out that theyH > bought a superior (albeit, dead) technology that obviates the need forI > Itanic. Mustn't forget that they've "burned their bridges behind them".a >s >c > I can see the ads now:J > "Our dead processor family beats the pants off the new crap we're trying to > stuff down your throats."y  L Apropos to HPQ ads, I saw one on Fox News (during the O'Reilly Factor, IIRC)L yesterday evening. T'was an ad for HP ProLiant servers. Whilst not an ad forI VMS or Alpha, it was nice to see a non-PC ad from the vendor in question.i   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:28:48 GMTo1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> 4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts. Message-ID: <4IHW8.464526$cQ3.38624@sccrnsc01>  5 "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in messagee* news:agfg2e$72h$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...H > In article <FeHW8.3647$UHe1.681@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,$ > John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote: > >,F > >IMHO, HP will show some 'non-published' numbers to those *existing*E > >customers who are likely candidates to need more Alpha horsepower.. > > D > >Since HP does *NOT* sell to *new* non-VMS customers any longer (a
 paraphraseI > >of their words), why should they go to the effort of pointing out thats theyI > >bought a superior (albeit, dead) technology that obviates the need for J > >Itanic. Mustn't forget that they've "burned their bridges behind them". >oD > Is that so, indeed?  That could explain a great deal.  Do you have > a reference to those words?'  H All I can do is paraphrase, but Ms. Fiorina uttered a close facsimile toI those words when queried about what HP would do if the merger failed. The / statement was made (IIRC) last September or so.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:42:28 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsB Message-ID: <UUHW8.648153$%y.39930388@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  = "Paul Winalski" <prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com> wrote in messageD3 news:3d2b0843.2648651990@proxy.news.easynews.com... A > Hmm.  Doesn't match the numbers at the HP website, which showedoB > a top-end IA-32 system ruling the roost on SpecINT. McK was tops > on SpecFP, though.  F Despite Rob's attempt to equivocate in his response, you're absolutelyG right:  Rob in no way qualified his statement to exclude IA32 platformsiL (though I gave him the benefit of the doubt in that respect when I respondedH that we'd have to wait for spec.org to publish the claims - and see themL appear before any others such as the 1.25 GHz Alpha's - before his statement could be considered accurate).   >yD > What is clear is that McKinley isn't the performance disaster that: > Merced was.  McK's integer numbers are comparable to the@ > current competition and the FP numbers look quite good indeed.? > McK has done a lot better than I, for one, expected it to do.   I Agreed, and I said as much myself.  I guess Fred was frothing too much atL the mouth to notice.   >eD > Whether this is good enough to sustain the IPF architecture in the4 > face of the competition is still an open question.  L Exactly.  Perhaps my similar attempt to inject a bit of reality was what set	 Fred off.g   - bill   >.E > On 8 Jul 2002 13:30:01 -0600, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)o > wrote: >r > > > > > That's right.  Time to eat crow all around.  Perhaps there2 > > may not be enough platters, but who cares, eh? > >o@ > > According to the PPTs and HTMLs found at www.openvms.org oneI > > can find (in the notes field) the Spec numbers embargoed until today.m > >A@ > > Following are base numbers.  So maybe their is a tiny bit of. > > glory left for Power4 in SpecInt2000 peak? > >u > > Itanium 2 Power4 at 1.3 GHzM > >< > >SpecInt2000 810 804 > >SpecFp 1356 1202M > >e > >s > > RobN > >c >  > ---------- > Remove 'Z' to reply by email.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 13:40:07 -0700r5 From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <My.Full.Name@intel.com>t4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts) Message-ID: <3D2B4A27.50FF1360@intel.com>e   Bill Todd wrote:  B > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message. > news:SeCW8.25$8Y5.382042@news.cpqcorp.net... > > " > > Bill Todd wrote in message ... > >m	 > > > ...d > >l) > > You want some cheese with your whine?  > >SK > > Oh my, Itanium-2 doesn't suck.  Let me see if I can throw in a bunch of1F > > other unsupported speculation to show why I wasn't wrong, or maybe > someone'seI > > lying, or maybe the Intel reference platform won't be as fast as HP'seN > > system, or anyway - it will still suck later.  And if that isn't enough, IJ > > can always complain that the mythical EV8 would still have kicked it's > ass. >pJ > You're starting to sound like a confirmed shit-head, Fred.  If you don't. > care to respond to specifics, just fuck off.  @     Gee, Bill, getting a little testy there, eh?  Didn't someoneA once say, "If you don't like rotten tomatoes being thrown at you,l; don't stand in the limelight", or something to that effect?k: Perhaps it was "heat" and "kitchens", whatever...  :-) :-)  B     I haven't done the statistics, but I wouldn't be the least bitB surprised if you alone accounted for over 25% of the post to c.o.vC since June a year ago (and probably before that).  That, if nothing C else, makes you a large target.  Seems to me Fred was being ever so>A slightly sarcastic, and you couldn't handle it?  Had to resort toeD name-calling with 4 letter words?  How professional.  The last thing@ we need in this group is another self-styled Carl Lydick, may he rest in peace...       MHO.  -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfieldm! F20 Automation VMS System Support  kenneth.h.fairfield#intel.comr   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:57:20 GMTB# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>w4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsG Message-ID: <Q6IW8.4953$UHe1.3253@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>t  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messager< news:45HW8.646871$%y.39885907@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >eB > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message. > news:SeCW8.25$8Y5.382042@news.cpqcorp.net... > > " > > Bill Todd wrote in message ... > >l	 > > > ...w > >s) > > You want some cheese with your whine?r > >'K > > Oh my, Itanium-2 doesn't suck.  Let me see if I can throw in a bunch of F > > other unsupported speculation to show why I wasn't wrong, or maybe > someone'ssI > > lying, or maybe the Intel reference platform won't be as fast as HP's L > > system, or anyway - it will still suck later.  And if that isn't enough, I J > > can always complain that the mythical EV8 would still have kicked it's > ass. >,J > You're starting to sound like a confirmed shit-head, Fred.  If you don't. > care to respond to specifics, just fuck off.     Bill,   E I just don't know what to say to you. This type of vulgar outburst is $ certainly not appreciated by anyone.  L If you want to make a biting comment about somebody, take a cue from Winston= Churchill and at least learn to do it with some lan and wit.t  J I suggest that you take a deep breath, calm your self down, and issue Fred an apology.    John   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:00:34 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>"4 Subject: RE: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660811@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   JF -  E >>> Since IA64 is currently still poised to be mostly HP's chip, much-B like Alpha was Digital's stating that most IA64 customers would be, running HP's compiler might not be wrong.<<<  B Well, my apologies if this has been already posted, but here is an% extract from the Intel press release:t  @ http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20020708comp.htmG "The world's leading enterprise software makers are building commercialME applications for Itanium 2-based systems, including BEA Weblogic*, i2uF Supply Chain* and Factory Planner*, IBM DB2* and Websphere*, MicrosoftF SQL Server 2000*, Oracle9i* Database and Oracle9i Application Server ,G Reuters financial services platforms, SAP R/3* and APO with LiveCache*,d and SAS v9.0*.  H The Itanium processor family is supported by more operating systems thanH any other high-end enterprise platform. Operating systems that currentlyG work with the Itanium 2 processor include Microsoft's Windows* Advancedt7 Server, Limited Edition, and Windows XP 64-Bit Edition;tH Hewlett-Packard's HP-UX*; and Linux from Caldera, MSC.Software, Red Hat,G SuSE and TurboLinux. In addition, Microsoft plans to introduce versionseB of Windows.NET* Datacenter and Enterprise Server for the Itanium 2H processor, and HP is porting its OpenVMS* and Non Stop Kernel* operatingA systems to the Itanium processor family for future introduction."c  C So, while it still has a ways to go to prove itself, as others havei> stated here - the IPF-2 is off to a much better start than its predecessor.   Regardss  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantl Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Servicesc Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]=207 Sent: July 9, 2002 3:40 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts     Nick Maclaren wrote:I > Then I suggest that you quote performance figures based on them, and=202F > do not flame me when I point out that the figures quoted by HP on=207 > Monday are not what most McKinley customers will get.c  F Since IA64 is currently still poised to be mostly HP's chip, much likeE Alpha was Digital's stating that most IA64 customers would be runnings! HP's compiler might not be wrong.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:09:47 GMT)# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsG Message-ID: <viIW8.6424$r2E1.1961@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>t  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:wGHW8.450076$352.70892@sccrnsc02... >a > H > Apropos to HPQ ads, I saw one on Fox News (during the O'Reilly Factor, IIRC)gJ > yesterday evening. T'was an ad for HP ProLiant servers. Whilst not an ad fornK > VMS or Alpha, it was nice to see a non-PC ad from the vendor in question.   /  Xeon-based machines are PC enough in my books.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:34:45 -0400R- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>s4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <3D2B56EB.4BCC8E52@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote:nK > It was in a bunch of stuff that came out in early May...said something torK > the effect of 'OpenVMS will be continued to be sold to existing customers M > and *selected* new accounts'. I will attempt to find the reference for you.   G There was also a clear and unequivocal statement to the effect that newe$ customers would be steared to HP-UX.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 20:47:08 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>f4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsG Message-ID: <gZHW8.6331$r2E1.5535@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>c  5 "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in messagee* news:agfg2e$72h$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...H > In article <FeHW8.3647$UHe1.681@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,$ > John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote: > >uF > >IMHO, HP will show some 'non-published' numbers to those *existing*E > >customers who are likely candidates to need more Alpha horsepower.p > >hD > >Since HP does *NOT* sell to *new* non-VMS customers any longer (a
 paraphraseI > >of their words), why should they go to the effort of pointing out thati theyI > >bought a superior (albeit, dead) technology that obviates the need forcJ > >Itanic. Mustn't forget that they've "burned their bridges behind them". > D > Is that so, indeed?  That could explain a great deal.  Do you have > a reference to those words?     : See   http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/07may02b.htm (full text below)a  $ in the section 'RISC-based Servers',  K "Decision: HP will continue with the previously published roadmaps for both(D PA-RISC and AlphaServer systems. HP will continue development of theA PA-8800 and PA-8900 processors, as well as the EV7 and EV79 AlphaeH processors. The roles of these two families will be quite different. TheB PA-RISC servers will be targeted at the PA-RISC installed base andL ***all new business opportunities***. AlphaServer systems ***will be focused3 on the Alpha installed base***."   (emphasis added)o  L Seems pretty clear. If you are new to HP, you will be sold HP-UX on PA-RISC, or now on Itanic.m  K Since new-to-HP customers will not be sold VMS unless they put a .44 Magnum@L to Carly's head and say "Go ahead, make my day.", where will HP find all theJ OpenVMS customers to buy all those shiny new Itanics? A good percentage ofI the existing OpenVMS customer base will have left for flavors of *ix longwK before any viable Itanic-family system is available for VMS production use.o  I A rational person might think that it would be a good thing to attempt toiJ market VMS to new customers, especially those you are trying to steal fromH Sun, IBM, SGI, Windows, etc...as that would lead to an immediate sale ofG Alphaservers and later Itanics. But I guess it probably boils down to a H simple reality - Alpha is dead, and who at a corporation is going to putJ his/her head on a chopping block by even suggesting, "Let's buy a bunch ofH Alpha's today so we can spend more money in a couple years to buy slowerC Itanics, and spend a bunch more money porting our apps and data!!"?   K So if you were an ISV, and HP isn't selling OpenVMS to new customers, where J do you think your efforts should be spent? Developing new products or lotsJ of enhancements for the OpenVMS market? And what do you think that will do0 the the rate of change in the VMS customer base?    ) -----------------------------------------F     hp white paper   HP Product RoadmapseL One of our most important objectives in planning the merger of HP and CompaqL was to develop clear product roadmaps that take advantage of the significantK and complementary strengths of both companies. Customers need to know which0I offerings we will have in which markets. And we wanted to be able to tell: them on Day One of the new HP.  L We began work on the roadmaps shortly after the merger was announced. We hadJ to make some difficult decisions about which products to keep and which toI retire, but the result is the best portfolio of products and solutions in L the industry. At the same time, we recognize that customers around the worldK have made significant investments in HP and Compaq technology. We intend to G protect those investments with detailed transition and migration plans.r  F The purpose of this white paper is to provide a high-level view of theK merged company's product roadmaps. Additional detail will be available fromhJ each of the business groups. The impact of roadmap decisions for employeesC and particular sites is still uncertain and will be subject to fullvJ consultation with works councils and other employee representatives, where required by local law.   SERVERS   I HP will become the master brand for all server products, but we will keept- product families representing both companies.v  E IA-32 Servers: Before the merger, HP and Compaq both had IA-32 serverhG offerings: the Compaq ProLiantT and the HP Netserver (and more recentlya! under the new name of HP Server).e  H Decision: Moving forward, the ProLiant servers will be HP's IA-32 serverJ offering. They will be named HP ProLiant servers. In the transition to theL ProLiant name, we will also transition to the server-attached storage (SmartJ Array), rack, rack option and power infrastructure, and systems managementD families used today with ProLiant platforms. The ProLiant EssentialsF software offerings will also move forward. In addition, the low-end HPE Servers tc2210 and tc2100 will continue to be offered but will not beeL re-branded as HP ProLiant servers. For the growing market for blade servers,H we will continue to offer the ProLiant blade server architecture for theC data center. We also will offer HP's blade server optimized for theO telecommunications market.  D As customers transition to ProLiant servers, Netserver customers canK continue to use their Toptools console, migrate to Insight Manager 7 or use,J a combination. More detailed benefits for customers and how-to informationJ on transitioning to the Insight Management Suite will be made available on the HP Web site.  < Rationale: Compaq products hold the No. 1 market position inG industry-standard servers worldwide, according to the latest IDC marketeD data, and have done so since 1992. The combination of broad customerK acceptance, outstanding performance, ease of management and favorable totalfG cost of ownership made the ProLiant name the clear choice as HP's IA-32s server.i  I Itanium Servers: HP and Compaq are both selling Intel ItaniumT Processor,L Family servers today, primarily to meet the needs of early adopter customersK and developers. Our commitment to the Itanium Processor Family remains veryoK strong, and we continue to see Itanium as the future 64-bit microprocessor.i  > Decision: The next-generation Itanium Processor Family serversD (McKinley-based) will be the previously published HP Server roadmap,L augmented by features from the ProLiant IA-64 roadmap. By the release of theI third generation Itanium processor (Madison), HP will offer Itanium-basedoJ servers from the low end to the high end of our product line, including HP NonStopT Itanium servers.a  H Our Industry Standard Server and Business Critical System business unitsG will jointly deliver the Itanium-based server family roadmap supporting-H multiple operating environments in all relevant markets. In addition, HPE will, over time, enhance its original plans by including the ProLiantp- management capabilities into Itanium servers.0  K Rationale: This decision was based on the expected customer adoption of the>J Itanium servers. The customers who will initially purchase Itanium serversE are the ones who require 64-bit computing. Today, these customers useoJ RISC-based servers. The HP roadmap gives HP a broad range of Itanium-basedG servers supporting multiple operating systems. It also gives HP PA-RISCoH customers outstanding investment protection with in-the-box upgrades for 4-way servers and above.  D RISC-based Servers: The combination of the HP PA-RISC and the CompaqF AlphaServerT families gives HP a strong position in the RISC and UNIXJ marketplace. Moving forward, our focus on the Itanium architecture will beI balanced with the need to meet our customers' requirements today for highr* performance, scalability and availability.  J Decision: HP will continue with the previously published roadmaps for bothL PA-RISC and AlphaServer systems. HP will continue development of the PA-8800I and PA-8900 processors, as well as the EV7 and EV79 Alpha processors. ThehH roles of these two families will be quite different. The PA-RISC serversC will be targeted at the PA-RISC installed base and all new businesssI opportunities. AlphaServer systems will be focused on the Alpha installeda base.   L Rationale: We want to reinforce our commitment to our customers by followingK the roadmaps we had already established. We're leading with PA-RISC for newtK business opportunities for two reasons: First, the PA-RISC systems will, insH most cases, be upgradeable in the box to future Itanium microprocessors.+ Second, HP-UX is the long-term UNIX for HP.s  K Fault Tolerant Servers: One of the exciting additions to the HP offering isnG the fault-tolerant NonStop server family from Compaq, which will now beeI known as the HP NonStop Server. Since HP did not have a similar offering,0' the roadmaps decisions are very simple.s  K Decision: There are no changes to the previous NonStop server roadmap. This-F includes the two planned MIPS processor upgrades and the transition to Itanium.  L Rationale: Customer availability requirements continue to increase. Having aI fault-tolerant offering will help HP continue to be the high-availability:L leader. As a result, continuing with the NonStop server roadmap positions HP# to meet the needs of our customers..  I UNIX: HP and Compaq both offered UNIX operating systems: HP-UX and Compaq  Tru64T UNIX.  I Decision: HP-UX will be the long-term UNIX for the new HP. Tru64 UNIX has I some very advanced features - including clustering and file systems - and 6 some of those will be integrated into HP-UX over time.  E Rationale: HP-UX has a much larger market share and installed base ofa@ customers. It also has much broader ISV support than Tru64 UNIX.  H Linux: HP and Compaq both supported the major Linux distributions across> platforms to provide customers with the solutions they demand.  K Decision: HP will continue to provide customers with Linux solutions on the,F major distributions and will adopt new distributions based on specific2 regional customer needs and solution applications.  J Rationale: Customers operate in heterogeneous environments and HP needs toA provide Linux solutions across platforms and regions on the LinuxtJ distribution of choice. Linux, with its distinct features and benefits, isL the right choice in particular application environments - especially web andG infrastructure services, as well as e-commerce application development, 8 digital content creation and high performance computing.  G HP is driving Linux adoption in enterprise and ISP software developmentwH environments by creating the tools and technologies that will facilitateC development on Linux for easy deployment on Linux or HP-UX systems.'  G HP is providing manageability, high availability, rapid deployment, andoJ security solutions that customers require in their IT environments running Linux.  G HP continues to offer the highest level of services for Linux includingyL migrations services, porting services, consulting, mission critical support,7 on-site consulting and support, education and training.m  = HP continues its strong support of the Open Source community.s  K Linux migration tools for Tru64 customers: HP provides support to customerse$ as they migrate from Tru64 to HP-UX.  H In addition to providing a migration path to HP-UX, HP continues to workL with the Linux community and partners to make Linux an acceptable option for6 Tru64 UNIX customers when it becomes enterprise ready.  H HP continues to enhance the Affinity Program that focuses on support forJ heterogeneous environments where Tru64 Unix and Linux systems interoperateH and are managed seamlessly. The Affinity Toolkit provides the ability toI develop applications on Tru64 Unix and move them to Linux and vice versa.s  J Application mobility across platforms is provided in the Affinity program.L One can develop on Tru64 UNIX and move to Linux for low cost deployment. TheH Affinity program is all about running the same tools and applications on both Linux and Tru 64UNIX.  D HP's goal is to enable end-user customers, developers and vendors toI integrate Linux and Tru64 UNIX and the power of HP into their developmentr and deployment environments.  I OpenVMS: HP also will deliver on the previously announced Compaq OpenVMSTo' roadmap, including the port to Itanium.    STORAGE   H Both Compaq and HP have very robust storage portfolios, so we are in theI enviable position of being able to develop a roadmap based on the best of 	 the best.r  L Key Overall Decisions: While we are making many individual product decisionsK encompassing products and strategies from both organizations, we will adoptsH the Compaq StorageWorksT name (re-named HP StorageWorks) for storage andI storage solutions, HP OpenView as the name for storage software, and ENSAiJ (Enterprise Network Storage Architecture) as the name for our architecture going forward.  J Online Storage: HP remains committed to offering multiple choices for diskL array and storage area network products. We will consolidate and rationalize> our array portfolio and focus on creating NAS/SAN convergence.  H Key Decisions: At the high end, we will continue to offer both HP-XP andI Compaq StorageWorks Enterprise Virtual Array (EVA). HP-XP enables storage L consolidation via a single, monolithic scalable and highly available storageB system. StorageWorks EVA will provide modular scaling and high-endB functionality by exploiting the storage network and virtualizationH capabilities for maximum storage efficiency, high availability and lowerK TCO. In the mid-range, we will offer the StorageWorks EVA architecture, butk? we will continue to offer HP VA solutions for HP-UX centric andEL heterogeneous environments and StorageWorks EMA modular arrays for ProLiant,E AlphaServer systems running Tru64 UNIX and OpenVMS, and heterogeneousaD environments - until our EVA architecture-based products fulfill our< customer requirements, expected to be by the middle of 2003.  K In the area of storage networking, we will consolidate both Compaq and HP'srK storage networking offerings into one product line with common firmware andsJ integration. In terms of NAS, we will offer the StorageWorks appliance forK the entry level, the HP appliance for the midrange and enterprise level andM, continue to work toward NAS/SAN convergence.  K Nearline: By combining and consolidating both companies' offerings, the new I HP will continue to provide customers a choice. We will continue to offernK the tape drive technologies that our customers deploy, including DLT, SDLT,c AIT and Ultrium.  G Key Decisions: We evaluated each of the products on features, price andbL market share. Where there was overlap, we chose the one that would best meetL our customers' needs. In the high-end tape drive segment, we will offer both Ultrium and SDLT.t  H Storage Management Software: Storage management software is an essentialJ component in simplifying storage by providing a single window that enablesD customers to visualize and manage their entire heterogeneous storage environment.  J Key Decisions: Our enterprise storage management strategy is to evolve theJ best storage management intellectual property from Compaq and integrate itI with the HP OpenView Storage Area Manager suite. Our existing HP OpenViewFE Omniback solutions will evolve from delivering backup and recovery tosH delivering on the promise of life cycle data management. To maximize ourJ business continuity offerings, we will continue to invest in and integrate< our host- and array-based HA/replication software solutions.  L Virtualization: The combination of the two companies results in the broadestI virtualization capabilities in the industry. A key focus area for the newsH storage organization is to consolidate and merge these technologies intoF even more useful solutions that provide virtualization capabilities in multiple areas.V  F Key Decisions: We will offer a multi-level virtualization strategy andG phased implementation plans, including the integration of HP and Compaq L virtualization IP into a common, multi-tier virtualization strategy. We willE continue to ship SANlink and VersaStor technology, eventually merging0 SANlink IP with VersaStor.   SOFTWARE  I HP will continue to invest in OpenView management solutions, Utility Data B Center (UDC), Opencall telco solutions and J2EE and Microsoft .NET middleware stacks.  L OpenView. Key Decisions: HP will adopt the OpenView name for all appropriateJ management software and will integrate TeMIP into the OpenView family. TheG OpenView product line will focus on integrated management solutions, onoJ extended management reach for both network and IP devices and web services management.   H And, HP will continue to take a leadership role in defining Web servicesF management interoperability standards and products - a key element forC successfully managing across companies, technologies and platforms.i  E Utility Data Center. Key Decisions: HP will continue to invest in thenI Utility Data Center software by leveraging the Compaq Insight Manager andoG Adaptive Infrastructure offerings as well as Toptools to offer the mostoA scaleable and comprehensive management solutions in the industry.7  C Telco Solutions. Key Decisions: For telco software, the new HP will K consolidate both Compaq and HP's telecom software into the Opencall product(J family that will be used to develop, integrate and deliver voice, data and converged services.s  E Middleware. Key Decisions: The new HP will be equally strong on UNIX,tK Windows and Linux-based servers, requiring middleware solutions to support B all platforms. HP will leverage key relationships that enhance theF middleware stacks around both J2EE and .NET to deliver a comprehensiveH ecosystem for HP and partners' application infrastructure components. InJ addition to building out value chains and ecosystems for the .NET and J2EEH stacks separately, we will help customers manage the heterogeneous stackF environments by providing key interoperability though our services and solutions organizations.  K Developers. Key Decisions: HP is deepening its commitment to developers andeJ is the right partner to work with for J2EE and .NET tools, for management,D UDC and IPF development. HP is taking a leadership role to integrateJ development and management through standards initiatives, developer tools,K community/content and developer support products to simplify for developersa5 this transition to a new way of thinking and working.l   PERSONAL SYSTEMS  I The new HP will provide the leading-edge personal systems technology thattK customers have come to expect from both HP and Compaq. We will leverage theeL complementary brand and product strengths of the two companies to deliver anB even better portfolio of end-to-end products, global solutions andD integrated services to meet the needs of our customers. Our brandingL strategy builds on the strong equity in the HP brand across a broad range ofG technology and the strong equity in the Compaq brand for PCs worldwide.t  H Business PCs and Notebooks. Decision: Business desktop PCs and notebooksH will migrate to the Compaq platform over the next 9-12 months. Both willF carry the Compaq name. This will enable HP to leverage Compaq's strongF market share and brand recognition in the commercial PC market. The HPK Vectra products will be phased out in line with current published roadmaps, K but we will continue to offer HP's highly successful e-pc line under the HPkI brand. The HP Omnibook products will continue to be offered through 2002.e  H Consumer PCs and Notebooks. Decision: We will continue to offer both theL Compaq PresarioT and HP Pavilion lines of consumer desktop PCs and notebooksI through all existing channels in regions where both brands are strong. InhK some countries, only one brand will be offered, depending on that country'saL specific requirements. Our goal is to minimize confusion and maximize choice for our customers.  L The two brands will compete, and we will market the unique value propositionA for each. Today, for example, Compaq has compelling offerings foruJ home/wireless networking and HP has strength in digital imaging solutions.K Maintaining both brands will enable HP to leverage existing brand awarenessiI and preferences and give customers the opportunity to continue to buy thenK brand and products that best meet their needs. The decision to maintain twoVJ consumer brands of desktop PCs and notebooks is driven in part by feedback from our retail partners.p  L Workstations. Decision: We will incorporate the strength of Compaq's WindowsK NT workstations to form the industry's broadest, most comprehensive productnG line. HP will continue to drive 64-bit platform leadership for the mostfK demanding applications with today's PA-RISC and upcoming workstations basedeI on the Intel Itanium Processor Family. HP workstations will provide greatlB value across the industry-leading 32- and 64-bit operations system' environments: Windows, Linux and HP-UX.n  K Smart Handhelds. Decision: The Compaq iPAQT Pocket PC, re-named the HP iPAQ J Pocket PC, will be our smart handheld platform. The best of the current HPI Jornada technology will be engineered into the platform. Jornada productsbI will be phased out of the market in 2002. HP will continue to innovate invD wireless, mobility and voice technology. HP also will offer the iPAQH Blackberry device for end-to-end wireless e-mail solutions, under the HP brand.  H Home and Wireless Networking. Decision: These solutions will be based onC current Compaq products and re-branded HP. Our corporate networking K solutions will range from wireless mobility solutions and industry-standardmG wireless LAN to Bluetooth solutions. For home networking, we will offeri9 several choices, from Ethernet to wireless to phone line.:  I Thin Clients: Decision: HP will continue the Compaq line of thin clients, E which will be re-branded HP. This line offers customers lower cost ofsD ownership, improved end-user productivity and unparalleled security.   BUSINESS NETWORKINGn  H Decision: HP will continue to deliver the most cost effective networkingI solutions with the HP Procurve product line of industry-standard Ethernetb
 LAN products.e  G Rationale: The HP Procurve networking products deliver industry leadingfE value as they meet business customers needs in building interoperable L networks that are highly available, secure, easy to manage and affordable. AL highly performing network is no longer optional and is a core requirement ofL an always-on business infrastructure connecting servers, storage and clients# in an increasingly connected world.m   IMAGING AND PRINTING  I HP develops and markets products in a broad range of printing and imagingwL categories. We lead the market in inkjet printers, all-in-one devices, laser@ printers, wide-format plotters, scanners, print servers and ink.  J For consumers, we offer products from capture devices like digital camerasE and scanners to sharing products like photo printers. The Imaging andaK Printing Group provides the solutions that get people from capture to shareeH in the easiest ways with the highest quality results. For businesses, weF make the products that make a difference - networkable printers, largeJ format printers and digital presses. We are helping businesses work faster/ and more efficiently with high-quality results.w  K HP's imaging and printing business is at a pivotal point in its history. WehF are defining and building the next chapter of imaging and printing forI business customers. During chapter 1, we heard from our customers that HPnJ makes great printers. During the next chapter, we will continue to provideJ high-quality, highly reliable products, but we will also provide solutionsF and services that enhance business processes and streamline workflows.  J For example, as part of this next chapter of imaging and printing, we willI serve the needs of an increasingly mobile workforce. Mobile professionalseJ need fast, easy access to information while away from their desks. ThroughK intelligent appliances, enhanced infrastructure, wireless and "smart space"HE solutions, HP and its partners can bring information access to mobilew professionals.  L We are also pushing the boundaries of our business beyond the general officeK as we introduce powerful digital publishing solutions that link to customeraK relationship management and other enterprise database systems. In addition,lH we are introducing new classes of digital multi-function devices and newK services and pricing/leasing options to meet customers' business challengesl< as the worlds of copiers, printers and fax machines collide.  L All imaging and printing categories and product lines remain as is, with the following exceptions:i    I Personal inkjet printers, all-in-ones and scanners. The HP product lineupS9 continues. We will phase out the Compaq-branded products.n    H Digital projectors: We will combine the HP and Compaq product line. SomeG specific products will be phased out, but final decisions have not been H made. All digital projectors will be branded HP - a transition that will  occur during the next 12 months.  C The organizational impact of all of the above roadmap decisions fortL employees and sites in particular countries is not yet known or decided. AnyE such impact will be subject to local legal requirements, including in G particular required consultation with works councils and other employeen representatives.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:36:04 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>C4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <3D2B5739.5B8FDEE6@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: N > Apropos to HPQ ads, I saw one on Fox News (during the O'Reilly Factor, IIRC)N > yesterday evening. T'was an ad for HP ProLiant servers. Whilst not an ad forK > VMS or Alpha, it was nice to see a non-PC ad from the vendor in question.I  L Saw that ad today on CNN I think. I noticed the HP branding to Proliant. ButL to me, Proliant = PC. Wintel is Wintel is Wintel. Whether in a 19" rack withF the monitor in a drawer, or on a destop, it is still all wintel to me.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:30:45 GMTl1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>n4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts. Message-ID: <9CIW8.133734$Uu2.30026@sccrnsc03>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageA news:viIW8.6424$r2E1.1961@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...i > > > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message* > news:wGHW8.450076$352.70892@sccrnsc02... > >e > >iJ > > Apropos to HPQ ads, I saw one on Fox News (during the O'Reilly Factor, > IIRC)iL > > yesterday evening. T'was an ad for HP ProLiant servers. Whilst not an ad > for C > > VMS or Alpha, it was nice to see a non-PC ad from the vendor in 	 question.r >s1 >  Xeon-based machines are PC enough in my books.r >d  J I see your point, my friend, but at least they were pitching quadprocessor boxes, not Presarios.r   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 22:16:03 GMT ( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts0 Message-ID: <agfnb3$c3d$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  G In article <gZHW8.6331$r2E1.5535@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, " John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote: > ; >See   http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/07may02b.htmu >(full text below) >t% >in the section 'RISC-based Servers',o >oL >"Decision: HP will continue with the previously published roadmaps for bothE >PA-RISC and AlphaServer systems. HP will continue development of theoB >PA-8800 and PA-8900 processors, as well as the EV7 and EV79 AlphaI >processors. The roles of these two families will be quite different. ThewC >PA-RISC servers will be targeted at the PA-RISC installed base andeM >***all new business opportunities***. AlphaServer systems ***will be focused64 >on the Alpha installed base***."   (emphasis added) >tM >Seems pretty clear. If you are new to HP, you will be sold HP-UX on PA-RISC,e >or now on Itanic.  A Thanks very much.  I am not sure that it answers my question, but @ I can't go into more detail because of confidentiality.  It does: clarify some of the odd behaviour I have observed, though.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679d   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:28:53 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <3D2B6397.ABAE8328@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote:wN > Seems pretty clear. If you are new to HP, you will be sold HP-UX on PA-RISC, > or now on Itanic.z  J And Scott Stallards now erased message was also very clear: We'll help youS migrate from VMS to HP-UX (which replaced the "we expect you to migrate to HP-UX").a  L > OpenVMS customers to buy all those shiny new Itanics? A good percentage ofK > the existing OpenVMS customer base will have left for flavors of *ix longiM > before any viable Itanic-family system is available for VMS production use.a  K I am not so sure about that. What remains of the VMS installed base are thecL largest customers with a big investment in Alpha. My guess is that they willF stay on Alpha well beyond the introduction of VMS on IA64. Wouldn't be2 surprised if VMS-ALPHA actually outlived VMS-IA64.  K On the other hand, once VMS run on Intel, *IF* Intel subsidizes advertisingcN the same way it does for wintel crap (put the awful Intel logo and tune and weL pay 75% of your ads), then it will be most interesting to see how HP decided, to market its non-core products such as VMS.  L Right now, if HP markets a wintel box, I'd say that the vast majority of theN costs are bourne by Intel and Microsoft. After all, they are the ones who make/ a profit from the sale of a wintel box, not HP.r  M Marketing VMS right now means you go against 2 partners: microsoft and intel.rG Once VMS is on intel, it leaves only microsoft as the one you make madee* because you advertise a competing product.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:22:06 GMTo* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsB Message-ID: <imJW8.649606$%y.40017442@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageA news:Q6IW8.4953$UHe1.3253@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...a >c7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message > > news:45HW8.646871$%y.39885907@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > >hD > > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message0 > > news:SeCW8.25$8Y5.382042@news.cpqcorp.net... > > >h$ > > > Bill Todd wrote in message ... > > >k > > > > ...r > > > + > > > You want some cheese with your whine?  > > >uJ > > > Oh my, Itanium-2 doesn't suck.  Let me see if I can throw in a bunch ofH > > > other unsupported speculation to show why I wasn't wrong, or maybe
 > > someone'slK > > > lying, or maybe the Intel reference platform won't be as fast as HP's F > > > system, or anyway - it will still suck later.  And if that isn't enough,. > IeL > > > can always complain that the mythical EV8 would still have kicked it's > > ass. > >mL > > You're starting to sound like a confirmed shit-head, Fred.  If you don't0 > > care to respond to specifics, just fuck off. >  >i > Bill,t >sG > I just don't know what to say to you. This type of vulgar outburst isr& > certainly not appreciated by anyone. >iF > If you want to make a biting comment about somebody, take a cue from Winstona? > Churchill and at least learn to do it with some lan and wit.  >iL > I suggest that you take a deep breath, calm your self down, and issue Fred
 > an apology.p  K You are free to suggest what you please, but don't hold your breath waitingi for one.  H I respond to people as they deserve, without sugar-coating the material.J What I said was *exactly* what I meant to say, and while I regret the factG that it appears to have offended your sensibilities I'm afraid that's ao@ price I'm willing to pay for being unambiguous in my statements.  C Of course, should the material to which I respond elevate itself tonC something worthy of more respect, then I'll happily accord it some.l   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:40:40 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <3D2B6659.2CDC0340@videotron.ca>   "Main, Kerry" wrote:B > http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20020708comp.htmI > "The world's leading enterprise software makers are building commercialtD > applications for Itanium 2-based systems, including BEA Weblogic*,  I When one has to list individual companies or even products with a versiontM number, it means that the momentum isn't exactly there. It is similar to whennM Sue jumps up and down, waiving her hands with joy whenever she finds some ISV   that is making a VMS product :-)    J > The Itanium processor family is supported by more operating systems than* > any other high-end enterprise platform.   M Humm, I counted HP-UX, Windows (special edition), and various Linux flavours.f That makes it 3.  C Microsoft hasn't yet made a real/full version of Windows available.   M Alpha had Windows, VMS, Tru-64 and Linux. That makes it 4. Alpha had more OSsC than IA64 has now.L Yeah, IA64 will come up to 5 when VMS and NSK arrive and alpha is down to 3.B Still not a radical difference, certaintly not worthy of bragging.  E > So, while it still has a ways to go to prove itself, as others have@ > stated here - the IPF-2 is off to a much better start than its > predecessor.  L How many operating systems have run on the 8086 ? Seems that its predecessorM has had much wider selection of software and operating systems than IA64 has.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 23:00:53 GMTc* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsC Message-ID: <FWJW8.359735$_j6.17081257@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>o  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2B1708.2ED3F16A@videotron.ca...   ...o  E > McKinley is brand spanking new, and currently being compared agaistlE > older existing chips. When those chips get their upgrades, how willr McKinley > fare ?  D In some ways this could be to McKinley's advantage, since all of itsK potential tweaks lie ahead of it (well, perhaps not all:  it's so late thataE the first round of tweaking may already have occurred...).  OTOH, theSL projected Madison and Montecito release schedule may be so tight that tweaksK don't get applied to McKinley or Madison but instead the effort is just put H into the next generation (i.e., Madison is born with the tweaks McKinleyL would otherwise have received, and Montecito is born with the tweaks Madison would otherwise have received).e   >fG > Is everyone just planning speed bumps for the next few years, or is a J > competitor to IA64 planning a more significant improvement to their chip whicha > would widen the gap ?   ; That's where McKinley/Madison/Montecito don't look so good.n  J The EV68c speed-bump should put Alpha on a par with McKinley in a month orD so (in fact, since McKinley systems don't yet appear to be generallyL available, the two releases may be just about simultaneous), and then beforeF the end of the year the EV7 release should make McKinley start to lookL second-rate.  Since Alpha's adoption of 130 nm process technology is plannedK to be, shall we say, leisurely, Madison will close the gap again next year,0J leaving EV79 about neck-and-neck with Montecito (at least in SPEC figures:J Alpha will still have significant memory bandwidth and MP advantages) whenH both appear in 2004 (when EV8 was scheduled, which would have bumped the2 Alpha advantage up to at least 2:1 in server use).  L Hammer, if it comes in anywhere near expectations, should make McKinley lookL pretty lame.  At best Madison will close the performance gap (though only inG SPEC results since, as with Alpha, Hammer has MP advantages that ItanicfK won't get until 2005), but only briefly (Hammer is scheduled for its shrinkdK to 90 nm late next year, and also may get a dual-core chip in the process -e- an event of major significance if it occurs).   I POWER4 is scheduled for a speed-bump in October to 1.5 - 1.6 GHz (and, asrB with the new Alpha, if SPEC accepts its performance numbers beforeG McKinley's the latter won't be at the top of the charts when it appears H there); it reportedly gets shrunk to 130 nm next year, which should thusD keep each of its dual cores somewhat ahead of Madison as the OctoberI speed-bump will bump each of its dual cores ahead of McKinley.  POWER5 istI scheduled to arrive in 2004 with both SMT and on-chip support for severalt> ancillary tasks (TCP/IP and MPI communication enhancements andK virtual-memory management among them; should encryption also be included ittC would likely significantly diminish Itanic's bragging rights on SSLiH performance); however, as it's scheduled to debut in 130 nm, each of itsH dual cores may not have too much of an advantage over Montecito in 90 nmJ (unless its SMT implementation really does double the per-core performanceD as IBM claims it will:  the number of execution units per core isn't> increasing, but they claim to be using them 'differently'...).  K As emphasized above, POWERx's dual-core configuration is its real advantagewI (at least in any multi-threaded environment, such as typical server use):iH while each single POWER core should be able to run even with or somewhatJ ahead of its Itanic competition in the SPEC races, the fact that there areI two of them on each chip (together using about the same power as a singleuL Itanic) gives each POWERx chip about twice the (multi-thread) performance of@ an Itanic (same goes for Hammer if/when it moves to dual cores).  J USIV is scheduled to appear in 130 nm about the same time Madison is - butF with dual cores on the chip.  While USIII is already at 150 nm (so theI shrink won't help is as much as shrinking McKinley will help Madison), inoK server use the two cores together should about equal Madison's performance.r  H PA-RISC gets both a shrink and dual cores next year, which should put it* noticeably ahead of Madison in server use.  J And of course IA32 will keep chugging along its performance curve as well:J it's already a bit faster than McKinley (except in SPECfp) and should have no difficulty remaining so.r  F All the above ignores pricing issues (which work to Itanic's advantageJ against the usual RISC suspects, with the possible exception of SPARC, butJ work against Itanic in comparisons with IA32 and Hammer).  It also assumesI that McKinley really does perform as well for the rest of the industry aslF HP's benchmarks say it will for HP; if not, that will affect adoption.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 21:50:42 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <3D2B92F0.D8873850@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:H > All the above ignores pricing issues (which work to Itanic's advantageL > against the usual RISC suspects, with the possible exception of SPARC, but< > work against Itanic in comparisons with IA32 and Hammer).   , Does the $4000 Itanic outperform its peers ?  G If Intel publicly says the 3meg chip sells for $4000, what would be thesN ballpark prince that HP would actually pay for it ? (considering all the deals it and Compaq did with Intel)f  I If volumes do not pick up for that enterprise-only chip, isn't it fair ton9 think that the prices for the chip aren't going to drop ?n  L At that cost, is IA64 really that competitive ? Seems to me that there is no& way it could compete against the 8086.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 02:54:10 GMTh# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsF Message-ID: <mlNW8.7651$r2E1.900@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in messagec* news:agfnb3$c3d$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...  ? > >The roles of these two families will be quite different. TheaE > >PA-RISC servers will be targeted at the PA-RISC installed base andoG > >***all new business opportunities***. AlphaServer systems ***will bel focusedn6 > >on the Alpha installed base***."   (emphasis added) > >nF > >Seems pretty clear. If you are new to HP, you will be sold HP-UX on PA-RISC, > >or now on Itanic. >nC > Thanks very much.  I am not sure that it answers my question, buteB > I can't go into more detail because of confidentiality.  It does< > clarify some of the odd behaviour I have observed, though.    F I'll bet that it isn't so odd in light of the direct quote from the HPD document reproduced above. It's probably quite consistent behaviour.  G Burn your bridge behind you and march according to orders, or lose youro job. - Anon.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:11:20 GMTs# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>b4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsG Message-ID: <sBNW8.7686$r2E1.5640@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>a  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2B6397.ABAE8328@videotron.ca... > John Smith wrote:eG > > Seems pretty clear. If you are new to HP, you will be sold HP-UX onu PA-RISC, > > or now on Itanic.s >aL > And Scott Stallards now erased message was also very clear: We'll help youL > migrate from VMS to HP-UX (which replaced the "we expect you to migrate to HP-UX").    I Sure. HP listens and changes anything that sounds offensive. But let's besK fair....HP has been doing some positive things too.....let's see......thereoJ was the let's spout some platitudes swing through Europe, the not found onG the HP web site and you only find out about it 3rd hand training in NewfJ Hampshire for 20 people out of 411,000 systems in production deal, and theH summer USA 8 city while everyone important at customer's are on holidays tour.B    K > > OpenVMS customers to buy all those shiny new Itanics? A good percentage  ofH > > the existing OpenVMS customer base will have left for flavors of *ix longJ > > before any viable Itanic-family system is available for VMS production use. >"I > I am not so sure about that. What remains of the VMS installed base areh the I > largest customers with a big investment in Alpha. My guess is that theyc willH > stay on Alpha well beyond the introduction of VMS on IA64. Wouldn't be4 > surprised if VMS-ALPHA actually outlived VMS-IA64.  L Sure...and I personally know of several constuction companies that still useF 1931 Ford trucks for their entire fleet.  Don't kid yourself...lots ofK decisions at companies are made on the basis of "XYZ Corp. really (GermaniclD expression)'ed us over by killing our system growth startegy. No newH development on their hardware or software from now on. As it is feasible. let's move our applications over to IBM gear."    A > On the other hand, once VMS run on Intel, *IF* Intel subsidizesr advertising-I > the same way it does for wintel crap (put the awful Intel logo and tunea and weF > pay 75% of your ads), then it will be most interesting to see how HP decideda. > to market its non-core products such as VMS.  D When Itanic is just as low-volume a cpu as Alpha was, Intel won't beL subsidizing any of it...in fact they may just charge HP more mony per cpu toJ amortize the R&D costs faster...After all, what could HP do? - - Resurrect1 Alpha if they didn't like the price increase? ha.o    J > Right now, if HP markets a wintel box, I'd say that the vast majority of thedK > costs are bourne by Intel and Microsoft. After all, they are the ones whoV make1 > a profit from the sale of a wintel box, not HP.l >eH > Marketing VMS right now means you go against 2 partners: microsoft and intel.I > Once VMS is on intel, it leaves only microsoft as the one you make madei, > because you advertise a competing product.  J If Itanic craps out, Intel and Microsoft will both be enemies of HP ratherE than partners. Microsoft, because they are everybody's enemy (more soIJ towards Sun), and Intel becasue they bet the franchise on an HP pipedream.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:19:54 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsG Message-ID: <uJNW8.7707$r2E1.1596@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>i  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:9CIW8.133734$Uu2.30026@sccrnsc03... >e0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC > news:viIW8.6424$r2E1.1961@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...N > >c@ > > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message, > > news:wGHW8.450076$352.70892@sccrnsc02... > > >  > > > L > > > Apropos to HPQ ads, I saw one on Fox News (during the O'Reilly Factor,	 > > IIRC)sK > > > yesterday evening. T'was an ad for HP ProLiant servers. Whilst not anp ad > > for E > > > VMS or Alpha, it was nice to see a non-PC ad from the vendor ino > question.I > >s3 > >  Xeon-based machines are PC enough in my books.e > >e >lL > I see your point, my friend, but at least they were pitching quadprocessor > boxes, not Presarios.d    6 When they shoudda be pitching the fast ball - Alpha's.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 13:13:25 -0700m) From: jbrankin@ntlworld.com (Jim Brankin)tF Subject: Re: New web-page dedicated to ports of PD software to OpenVMS= Message-ID: <863f19d6.0207091213.7eb37b28@posting.google.com>r  > Good work but will the search engines be able to find it? The A easiest way to be sure is to put it in the DMOZ directory. Go to t  B http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Operating_Systems/Midrange/VMS/   and click add url. m  @ It can take up to a month for it to appear in the directory but = that will make a link which the search engines will follow.      - Jim     a JOUKJ <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl> wrote in message news:<3D2573E3.6090201@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>...  > Hi Folks,t > F > I created a new web page (http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/) on F > which I'm planning to give a summary of all Publicdomain software I I > contributed ports and/or patches to in order to have it run on OpenVMS.-G > The page consists of link to where to get it, what to patch and what r; > software it depends on (and links to these dependencies).rG > I hope this page will help to make it easier to find/install/run the   > software on OpenVMS. > J > The present page is an initial version. More packages will be added the I > coming weeks, but already contains some nice ports not found elsewhere  & > on OpenVMS pages(i.e. Ted & Pfaedit) >  >  >                  JoukF   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:51:14 GMTS1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> F Subject: Re: New web-page dedicated to ports of PD software to OpenVMS' Message-ID: <3D2B8928.9FE6D628@fsi.net>    JOUKJ wrote: >  > Hoff Hoffman wrote:e > > JOUKJ wrote:I > > : I created a new web page (http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/) onn > >oJ > >   Please don't mess with the browser-selected color maps.  Just don't.H > >   Particularly when the page (sorry) looks like "angry fruit salad".G > >   Blue and gray and red text on a fuscia background are, well, veryh > >   hard to read.oE > I'm just trying to get something that suits myself and others. MostdJ > modern programs/webpages give me a headache since they use black letters< > on a white screen. That's too light intensive for my eyes.  @ Try adjusting your monitor. In "DOS" mode on my screen, "normal"G intensity letters on black appear very dark to most people, while bold,aF bright-white letters practically burn the phosphor right off the tube.A On the other hand, in "Windows" mode, the white is not especially  intense.  C I set Netscape to default to a grey background. Since some web sitetG designers assume that browsers always default to white background, some $ web pages appear very interesting...   > I always lookiJ > for ways to avoid that but not always I succeed. This pinkish page is my > answer to that.h  E Well, you could study up on how colors appear to the color-blind, andrI select the lighter colors for text and the darker colors for background. ,  5 > I changed the page a little so that you can choose.n  3 Again, all of your efforts are greatly appreciated.c   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems- http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:23:18 +01005U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>i4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)0 Message-ID: <agf9ll$mlp$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Main, Kerry wrote:  	 > Andrew,d >  > F >>>>But don't you think that a DBA may have to do just a tiny bit more >>>>I > planning in order to take his/her DBMS and run it across multiple nodesy > in a cluster.<<< > J > Sure. However, any Oracle DBA will also tell you that the amount of workJ > and/or planning something like a OPS environment is on the same scale asG > planning a 50 cpu SMP config. Both need careful attention to what thetC > workload is expected to be, how server shutdowns, backups will be) > handled etc... >  >     - I read Kerry but your point is simply untrue.    1. f1 You need to be specially trained to manage an OPSd2 	environment for starters, this might in itself be/ 	a hint to you that managing an OPS cluster has 4 	additional skill requirements to a single instance.   2.  3 Tuning is very different, in addition to the normal 2 	tuning issues of data placement etc you also need2 	to consider partitioning data, something that you3 	may do on an SMP system but for different reasons.r   3. o2 There are financial penalties for using OPS, which3 	any administrator in his/hers right mind will needl
 	to consider.a   4. o5 Your storage requirements are entirely different, you-7 	now need a shared storage subsystem rather than single 
 	host attach.l   5. e4 Apps that you use may not support OPS or may require9 	a different version, Seibel for example will not supportn4 	OPS/RAC until at least 7.5 not available now. Older3 	versions of Oracle apps don't support OPS etc etc.A  ? The list of reasons why your conjecture is BS is almost endlessu why persist.   Regardsa Andrew Harrisons   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:07:38 -0500e& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)8 Message-ID: <27jmiuo83hh1j33ri0egsna0e6vomg1i50@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:23:18 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 4 <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote:     >g >1. 2 >You need to be specially trained to manage an OPS3 >	environment for starters, this might in itself bee0 >	a hint to you that managing an OPS cluster has5 >	additional skill requirements to a single instance.o  @ I think you overstate the complexities involved.  Sure, there isC additional training, so what?  Every time you get a new version you ? need some bit of training for the changes/new features as well.t) And it's not as if there are no benefits.   @ It's a trade-off.  Many, many customers find the availabilty andB scalability features of VMSclustering far outweigh this complexity  that you keep spouting on about.   >y >2. 4 >Tuning is very different, in addition to the normal3 >	tuning issues of data placement etc you also needo3 >	to consider partitioning data, something that youc4 >	may do on an SMP system but for different reasons.  D What?  Well, none of this was true in the VMSclusters I ran that hadD Oracle clustered on them.  Tuning consisted of merely making the SGAB as large as we wanted to reduce real I/O to disk, and there was NO& need whatsoever to partition the data.  D Now, I admit that these Oracle clusters were some time ago, and that? Oracle OPS has many of VMScluster's features built-in, and thus C requires different attention.  However, from what I've seen from myo? colleagues, it's not all that difficult, and the trade-offs andt) contraints are well-known and documented.s   >s >3. 3 >There are financial penalties for using OPS, which 4 >	any administrator in his/hers right mind will need >	to consider.  F Sure, as well as the financial penalties of increasing the size of theC single server when other apps on the same server grow.  I know thisiD one from experience.  Oracle apps remained constant, other apps wereE growing, requiring a server upgrade, which meant over $250K (USD) forl& Oracle upgrades we really didn't need.  > There are also financial penalties for (lack of) availability.  ? The cluster scenario tries to balance the need for scalability,eF availability, and speed.  It really is pretty simple to add servers toD a VMScluster to automagically add not only additional availabilitiy,, but also additional servers for scalability.  E Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.  Many happy customers to show- for it too.m   >m >4. 6 >Your storage requirements are entirely different, you8 >	now need a shared storage subsystem rather than single >	host attach.  B Not a problem.  It's completely transparent in my VMSclusters.  InD fact, when these customers see how other servers & clusters work wrt storage, they cringe.r  B Most folks who want large servers understand the need for, and the@ benefits of, the SAN-attached storage options.  Sure, this isn'tD necessary for all customer sizes, but those who have medium-to-large environments do it.r  D And for smaller environments, VMSclusters did real, true, multi-hostA SCSI clusters a long time ago.  And these can still do host-basedlE mirroring to other VMScluster members' SCSI storage at a remote site.    >e >5. 5 >Apps that you use may not support OPS or may requirep: >	a different version, Seibel for example will not support5 >	OPS/RAC until at least 7.5 not available now. Oldere4 >	versions of Oracle apps don't support OPS etc etc. >m  F Support/Schmupport.  You'd never imagine how many times vendors try toF pull that crap.  If problems occur with software, it's a simple matterE to reproduce the problem with only one server running the app... thatiB shuts the vendor up as far as finger-pointing goes.  Rarely, and ID mean RARELY (as in, never in 17 years) have I had a problem that was cluster-specific.y  E If the vendor's software works in a cluster at all (i.e., they didn'tn9 pull some real bone-headed programming mistakes) then anyuC cluster-related problems are not usually related to their software,f per se.o    1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq - (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)a   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:57:26 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)' Message-ID: <3D2B8AB7.C2141DFE@fsi.net>h   Bill Todd wrote: > [snip]M > robust batch queues, since I'm not familiar with Solaris support or lack of-A > it for that or equivalent facilities (nor, I suspect, are you).m  D FWIW, Solaris is more or less "UN*X vanilla" here: at, atq, crontab,1 etc., but no batch queues as VMS folks know them.7   -- d David J. DachteraT dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/,   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 01:23:15 GMTa* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)A Message-ID: <70MW8.114395$vq.5619496@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>p  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D2B8AB7.C2141DFE@fsi.net...f > Bill Todd wrote:
 > > [snip]L > > robust batch queues, since I'm not familiar with Solaris support or lack ofC > > it for that or equivalent facilities (nor, I suspect, are you).t > F > FWIW, Solaris is more or less "UN*X vanilla" here: at, atq, crontab,3 > etc., but no batch queues as VMS folks know them.   L That's why I included 'or equivalent' above:  while I'm not exactly a fan ofF scripting as the solution for all ills, Unix people do seem to find itH adequate for a remarkable range of activities, and FAIK simulating batch operation could be one of them.@  K Remember, we're talking function here, not elegance or even (within reason)f ease of use.   - bill   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:41:26 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>  Subject: Re: Pascal Editor$ Message-ID: <3d2b2e78$1@news.si.com>  G >Are you looking for EDT to run on a Pc?  do a www.google.com search onn >SEDT, or anker sonnen  & That's Anker Berg-Sonne.  Find SEDT at1 http://www.ultranet.com/~anker/sedt/sedt_main.htm  --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comeA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comt= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventt< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:48:30 +0530e# From: "Vivek Soni" <visoni@bmc.com>J" Subject: PURGE   version set to ;1/ Message-ID: <uingpo82bc6940@corp.supernews.com>e   Hi,D  : With PURGE  I am left with the latest version of the file.  8 Ex. XY.C;11   XY.C;10  XY.C;9 .... and so on till XY.C:1   PURGE will give me XY.C;11  E Do we any options in PURGE so we get XY.C;11 but is renamed to XY.C;1w   Thanks Vivekb   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 01:03:55 GMTa1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>e) Subject: Re: SET FILE/TRUNCATE equivalentr' Message-ID: <3D2B8C3B.4C550E26@fsi.net>    Carl Perkins wrote:l > F > "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@nospammmmm.optusnet.com.au> writes..., > }let me know if you find out how to do it. > }s1 > }I have a file that is a 2.2 million lines long * > }and I only want the first 11 characters$ > }from each line, I will have to do' > }this every few days, so I guess that ' > }dcl is out for me, and I don't speakr > }programming languages ;-( > }8 > }ant > + > Of course you can do it in DCL. Try this:a >  > $ create first11.sortspecm& > /field=(name=textdata,pos:1,size:11) > /key=1 > /data=textdataL > $ sort/spec=first11.sortspec/stable really_big_file.txt smaller_output.txt > D > Tada. Well, technically it isn't exactly all in DCL - it also uses' > the sort specification file langauge.W > @ > You only need to create the sort specification file once, then? > reuse it every time. The miracle of the nonsorting sort - thetA > key is a constant, so the /STABLE on the command line makes theeB > records all appear in the output in the same order they appeared > in the input.w  * If you're gonna go that far, why not just:  / $ CONVERT/FDL=SYS$INPUT infile outfile/TRUNCATE  FILE 	ORGANIZATION		SEQUENTIAL  RECORD 	BLOCK_SPAN		YES 	CARRIAGE_CONTROL	NONE 	FORMAT			FIXED 
 	SIZE			11 $ EODv  ? > Of course this has nothing to do with SET FILE/TRUNCATE. ThateD > deallocates allocated but unused clusters off the end of the file. > It doesn't touch the data.   True enough...   -- n David J. DachteraI dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:55:43 -0400; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>.' Subject: Re: SMTP 8bit hack not workingp$ Message-ID: <3d2b31d0$1@news.si.com>  I >FYI "Wire Paladin" is not my pseudonym, it is a reference to a 1950's TVi westernD/ >(Have Gun, Will Travel) staring Richard Boone.R  0 "HAVE GUN, WILL TRAVEL," read the card of a man.( A knight without armor in a savage land., His fast gun for hire heed the calling wind;/ A soldier of fortune is the man called Paladin..  $ Paladin, Paladin, where do you roam?% Paladin, Paladin, far, far from home.b  < I still remember this theme song 50 years later.  Go figure. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comnA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.como= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventl< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:22:31 GMT-( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>' Subject: Re: SMTP 8bit hack not workingo+ Message-ID: <3D2B2A56.7AD39A9D@pacbell.net>F  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > e > In article <3D2A96B7.F0A73ACC@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:s# > >About "wiring" and telegraphy...r > >.B > >During the goldrush in Alaska, most people going for gold whentK > >by boat to a small port at the coast of Alaska, can' remember it's name.C > L > Skagway, probably.  (That's the port from which you could start walking toI > the Yukon, where the gold was, and it's where they built the railroad.)x > M A great town. Went there in 1989 and stayed in great 100+ tear old hotel thatdP was used during the goldrush. The railroad still runs from Skagway to WhitehorseI in the Yukon. Went there too. The town wasn't much, but the trip there is- spectacular! -- P   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)y
 San Francisco    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:35:39 GMTn1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> # Subject: Re: SPAM $5,000 / month!!!a. Message-ID: <fWGW8.463991$cQ3.38412@sccrnsc01>  C Amazing that the latest iteration of the Ponzi Scheme lists five USs2 Spamizens, yet it originates from a Russian ISP...   postmaster@vsi.rut    + "newlife" <newlife@tut.by> wrote in message # news:agf92j$2jqf$35@serv2.vsi.ru...i > / >  Read at least ONE PAGE before deleting it!!!.   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 11:58:53 -0700a( From: jimrizzolo@yahoo.com (Jim Rizzolo) Subject: Used Alpha's and Vax'se= Message-ID: <d9d42aa0.0207091058.7db354ef@posting.google.com>h  @ I am trying to locate used OpenVMS systems (Alpha and VAX). DoesA anyone know of any websites where I can find sellers?  Thank you..   ------------------------------  $ Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:02:01 -0400* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov># Subject: RE: Used Alpha's and Vax'sf- Message-ID: <0033000071787516000002L062*@MHS>   0 =0AWell, there's Dave Turner at Island Computers5 and then there are other firms less worthy of a plug.t   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET $ Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:57 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: Used Alpha's and Vax'sb    @ I am trying to locate used OpenVMS systems (Alpha and VAX). DoesB anyone know of any websites where I can find sellers?  Thank you.=   ------------------------------  * Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:58:36 +0000 (UTC)- From: lewis@spyder.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)d# Subject: Re: Used Alpha's and Vax'sN. Message-ID: <agfips$r9l$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   jimrizzolo@yahoo.com (Jim Rizzolo) writes in article <d9d42aa0.0207091058.7db354ef@posting.google.com> dated 9 Jul 2002 11:58:53 -0700: A >I am trying to locate used OpenVMS systems (Alpha and VAX). DoeseB >anyone know of any websites where I can find sellers?  Thank you.  K I got my Alpha at ebay.com.  If you want a VAX, just wait around here untile> somebody gives one away, and rent the appropriate sized truck.  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgs> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 01:25:41 GMTr1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> # Subject: Re: Used Alpha's and Vax's ' Message-ID: <3D2B9156.508C17F6@fsi.net>    Jim Rizzolo wrote: > B > I am trying to locate used OpenVMS systems (Alpha and VAX). DoesC > anyone know of any websites where I can find sellers?  Thank you.e   A few listings at:  / http://www.djesys.com/vms/hobbyist/support.htmla8 http://www.djesys.com/vms/hobbyist/support.html#hardware   -- w David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 04:55:57 +0100 (BST)tF From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Tadimeti=20Keshav?= <keshav_tadimeti@yahoo.co.uk> Subject: VMS Qns@ Message-ID: <20020710035557.89621.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com>  
 Hello all,% I have some questions to ask you all:e  6 1. While using SORT program, logical pointing to input6 file is given and there is a logical that is specified+ in teh place of the output file as follows:d' 	$ sort/statistics/noduplicates       --.       /key=(position:45,size:17)      -  ! ECN              input_file   -                extract_reject_file
              t6 INPUT_FILE logical is defined, but EXTRACT_REJECT_FILE6 is not. Will the same input file be the output file as well?   3 2. $ sort/statistics/spec=vms_cmd:bb_0360_bu_01.srt'% bb_tmp:'sort_file' bb_tmp:'sort_file'u  6 In this command are the input & output the same files?    3. What does this search return?5 f$search("bb_tmp:''sort_file';-1")? WHat happens whena a negative stream ID is given?   Thanks Keshav  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?+ Everything you'll ever need on one web pagen- from News and Sport to Email and Music Chartsi http://uk.my.yahoo.com   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Jul 2002 13:20:49 -0700d. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)' Subject: Re: Where to put startup stuffa= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0207091220.5dedd931@posting.google.com>   Z p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote in message news:<hTbIPfr3W$Yd@elias.decus.ch>...p > In article <343f30ae.0207081456.547ddd17@posting.google.com>, SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) writes:^ > > p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote in message news:<kG$Jt4wZPKgK@elias.decus.ch>...f > >> In article <l0djiuc7vmvor6stp3b2iq46m65t1k5c8g@4ax.com>, jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> writes:L > >> > I've always made use of all the SY*.com files - though SYSECURITY andM > >> > SYCONFIG are not needed most of the time (well, "always" is since theyn > >> > were made available). > >> > tL > >> > It helps to put a write sys$output statement at the beginning and endH > >> > of each of these files (I also include f$time()) so that you knowE > >> > which procedure is being executed.  Likewise, before I executeiI > >> > external procedures I use write sys$output to let me know where my H > >> > startup is processing... this is very useful if things die in the9 > >> > middle, helps me get right to the problem quicker.i > >> >  I > >> > One thing to note:  Some of the files - e.g., SYLOGICALS.COM - get3M > >> > executed even during a "minimum" boot.  You need to put logic there towM > >> > skip over things you don't want to happen during a minimum boot (e.g.,t1 > >> > mounting all of the system/cluster disks).  > >> >  K > >> It is worth noting that the startup calls these procedures with P1 set  > >> appropriately.c > > J > > Could you please explain what you mean by this? Give an example maybe? > O > For example, in SYLOGICALS, on a normal boot, P1 is "FULL". I honestly forgetEK > what the value is on a minimum boot ( "MINI" ?), bur have used it to goode > effect in the past.  > __ > Paul Sture
 > Switzerlande        $ SEAR SYLOGICALS.COM P1$ $!      P1 - Name of device to check0 $       If .NOT. F$Getdvi(P1,"EXISTS") Then Exit0 $       DSENT   'P2' 'F$Getdvi(P1,"FULLDEVNAM")' $u    9 That P1 is for a device and is only for the subroutine inoD SYLOGICALS.COM. I tried a minimum boot (set STARTUP_P1 to "MIN") and? it ran SYLOGICALS.COM, SYPAGSWPFILES.COM and SYSECURITY.COM buts+ skipped SYCONFIG.COM and SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM.,  E Your post made it sound like you could pick and choose which get run.d9 AFAIK, you can only pick between MIN and regular booting.r   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman  afeldman gfigroup com    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.376 ************************