1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 10 Jul 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 377       Contents: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study  Re: ACMS/DECFORMS training% Re: Alpha Shadowing Phase II question - Another mention of VMS is an HP press release 1 Re: Another mention of VMS is an HP press release  Another OpenVMS Press Release ! Re: Another OpenVMS Press Release % Are there any humans in COMPAQ/HP US? ' Re: C and X11 programming, finding info ' Re: C and X11 programming, finding info  Convert conundrum. Help? Re: Convert conundrum. Help? Re: Convert conundrum. Help?$ Re: Disk drives for Digital PW 433au$ Re: Disk drives for Digital PW 433au DS10 shutting down Re: DS10 shutting down Re: DS10 shutting down Re: DS10 shutting down Re: DS10 shutting down Re: DS10 shutting down Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion RE: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion RE: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh...+ Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + RE: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow) + Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow) + RE: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow) + Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow) + Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)  Re: PURGE   version set to ;1  Re: PURGE   version set to ;1  Re: PURGE   version set to ;1  Re: PURGE   version set to ;1  Re: PURGE   version set to ;1  Re: PURGE   version set to ;1  Quick Poll - two sessions  RE: Quick Poll - two sessions  Re: Rdb and Oracle Compared  RECALL suggestion  Re: RECALL suggestion  Re: RECALL suggestion  Re: RECALL suggestion  RE: RECALL suggestion  Re: RECALL suggestion  Re: RECALL suggestion  RRD42 Caddy  Re: RRD42 Caddy  Re: RRD42 Caddy  Re: RRD42 Caddy   Re: SET FILE/TRUNCATE equivalent Setting Term Re: Setting Term RE: Setting Term Stupid storage question 8 Re: System Disk Initialization Parameter recommendations TIMA Re: TIMA Re: TIMA Re: TIMA RE: TIMA Re: TIMA Re: Used Alpha's and Vax's/ Re: Using GNU C on OpenVMS FAQ (Looking for it)  Re: VMS Qns  VS 3100/38: Boot message Re: VS 3100/38: Boot message2 WATCH DOG--WATCHIT--PolyCenter/ OPEN VMS/ CONTRACT6 Re: WATCH DOG--WATCHIT--PolyCenter/ OPEN VMS/ CONTRACT Who Knows Asterix ?  Re: Who Knows Asterix ?  Re: Who Knows Asterix ?  Re: Who Knows Asterix ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:21:25 GMT , From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org>( Subject: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study< Message-ID: <p2_W8.4431$Sb3.137375@twister.southeast.rr.com>  L A Rich Marcello email sent to selected OpenVMS customers anouncing the "20029 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study" and asking for participation.   9 http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/07/10/1060371        --   Kenneth Farmer http://www.Tru64.org http://www.OpenVMS.org http://www.LinuxHPTC.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:31:56 GMT $ From: Jim Duff <jim@eight-cubed.com># Subject: Re: ACMS/DECFORMS training . Message-ID: <3D2C455B.7060100@eight-cubed.com>   Elie Uy wrote:B > Does anyone know if ACMS/DECFORMS still being offered out there? >  > Thanks > --Elie >  >   : http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/acms/6000educ.htm> http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/decforms/6000educ.htm   Jim  --   jim@eight-cubed.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:09:33 +0100 ) From: Witchy <news@sruasonidyranib.co.uk> . Subject: Re: Alpha Shadowing Phase II question8 Message-ID: <5t1oiu0egfojf1cgiu4hitor3b78te0qes@4ax.com>  8 On 9 Jul 02 13:15:32 PST, mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com wrote:  - >In article <3D2B4283.265BC8A1@videotron.ca>, 1 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  >> Witchy wrote:C >>> What I'm wondering is is there a way of creating the shadowsets 2 >>> without having to go thru a full shadow copy ? >>  M >> There was a discussion of this a few weeks ago. You may reduce the time to M >> bring the shadow set up to speed by using a /PHYSICAL backup, but then you Q >> need to have the source disk totally off-line with nobody using it (eg: system  >> down time). >>  Q >> If you can afford such system downtime, then the normal full shadow copy won't # >> really be that different to you.  > L >No need to have exclusive access to the source disk; just insure that afterP >the /physical copy is made that you intialize (or use some otherwise convenientL >technique to destroy the SCB) the /physical copy disk so that the shadowingO >software can determine which disk is to be the master. The initialization will M >only rewrite the reserved files, one of which is BITMAP.SYS, which I believe M >contains the SCB (storage control block containing description of the shadow L >set). When the initialized /physical copy is targeted by the shadow copy itL >will find that nearly all of the disk is already the same as the master and( >skip the copy portion of the operation.  F Excellent, thanks for that Jim. I've got a spare DS20 that I can break! so I'll give all that a go today.    cheers   w    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 08:00:19 -05003 From: Ken Robinson <ken.s.robinson@exxonmobile.com> 6 Subject: Another mention of VMS is an HP press release; Message-ID: <Xns92475FB5A1445ksrobinerenjcom@66.150.105.66>   H See <http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/020710/100128_1.html> entitled "HP Expands F Industry's Broadest Range of Products and Solutions for Oracle9i Real  Application Clusters"   J True... VMS is mentioned under the UNIX Offering heading, but at least it  is mentioned...      Ken Robinson kenrbnsn1 (at) rcn.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:33:20 -0400 5 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> : Subject: Re: Another mention of VMS is an HP press release* Message-ID: <aghgjc$fbh$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  K ok Ken you won, faster than I could get it on the newsgroup, thank you very ! much and thanks for your support.    sue   @ "Ken Robinson" <ken.s.robinson@exxonmobile.com> wrote in message5 news:Xns92475FB5A1445ksrobinerenjcom@66.150.105.66... I > See <http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/020710/100128_1.html> entitled "HP Expands G > Industry's Broadest Range of Products and Solutions for Oracle9i Real  > Application Clusters"  > K > True... VMS is mentioned under the UNIX Offering heading, but at least it  > is mentioned...  >  >  > Ken Robinson > kenrbnsn1 (at) rcn.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:05:08 -0400 5 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> & Subject: Another OpenVMS Press Release* Message-ID: <aghlv4$gue$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  I http://www.varbusiness.com/sections/customer/customer.asp?ArticleID=36111    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:01:06 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> * Subject: Re: Another OpenVMS Press Release. Message-ID: <mLZW8.458121$352.72935@sccrnsc02>  @ "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message$ news:aghlv4$gue$1@web1.cup.hp.com...K > http://www.varbusiness.com/sections/customer/customer.asp?ArticleID=36111  >   ( David Joachim at VAR Business done good!   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:11:41 GMT + From: "Andy Proctor" <aproctor@hotmail.com> . Subject: Are there any humans in COMPAQ/HP US?5 Message-ID: <1026313754.743639@ananke.eclipse.net.uk>   3 Not strictly a VMS query but this is a last resort.   L If there is anyone from any service centre in the US reading this please canJ you help, or if there is anyone from COMPAQ anywhere in the US, please can	 you help?   L A customer has a DS10 workstation under warranty and no-one from the ServiceI side in the US is actioning a service call. The monitor is defective. The   ticket number is NA020701003976.  K This is now almost 2 weeks old and the warranty terms state the response is J NBD. My colleagues in our US office are unable to get a human on the phone to obtain an update..why?   H COMPAQ look like they are breaching their own t/c of purchase here.....I% would like to get this serviced asap.   F I have COMPAQ UK helping me now also, as they are friendly helpful and? efficient, but have no control over what the US operation does.   ( Please help someone...anyone....{buler!]   Andy Proctor Customer Support Manager Spirent Communications	 Aspen Way 	 Devon, UK  Tel: +44-1803-546315 andy.proctor@spirentcom.com  http://www.spirentcom.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:12:12 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 0 Subject: Re: C and X11 programming, finding info, Message-ID: <3D2BDE35.3F4F9400@videotron.ca>   Lyndon Bartels wrote: F > The books mentions font aliases. And that there's a file listing the > fonts and D > their aliases. I don't have the book in front of me, but if memory
 > serves, the ' > said it was "font.dir" or "fonts.dir"   O FONT/DIR is supposed to be your friend, but on VAX, that command doesn't exist.   & I believe you can build files such as: decw$font_directory.dat  decw$font_alias.dat.      J > nice to see some examples of simple actions. Like "this is how you build > a C > pulldown menu" "this is how on would implement an input routine."   K the directory : SYS$COMMON:[SYSHLP.EXAMPLES.DECW] is your big friend there.   J You can start with PERIODIC which is an example that has most of the Motif  widgets and the code to call it.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:46:52 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> 0 Subject: Re: C and X11 programming, finding info1 Message-ID: <wNXW8.9$Vs6.331862@news.cpqcorp.net>   E Lyndon Bartels wrote in message <3D2B5EB8.28B38F85@pressenter.com>... A >I've been working on writing some X windows programs on VMS. I'm  >learning alot. D >The only problem that I'm coming across so far is that the O'Reilly >books that ! >I'm using is based on a unix OS.  > I >So I plunge on... I've worked with Ultrix, (that's right Ultrix...v3.1 -  >v4.5)A >and I've worked with Linux. So for the most part I can do enough  >translation to  >get by. >  >But I've ran across a stumper.  > E >The books mentions font aliases. And that there's a file listing the 
 >fonts andC >their aliases. I don't have the book in front of me, but if memory  >serves, the& >said it was "font.dir" or "fonts.dir" >   G There is a logical name DECW$FONT in the server table that is a list of I directories to find fonts in.  In each directory that contains any fonts, J there will be a file called DECW$FONT_DIRECTORY.DAT.  This file came aboutG when the new font naming standards were done.  Instead of the font name K being the name of the file - the font name is inside the file.  The cost of L looking up all the names in all the fonts became expensive (opening, readingJ and closing all font files) - so the font directory files contain the font name to font file mappings.   J Of course, at the same time there were a bunch of fonts that no longer hadI the right names, so there is another file called DECW$FONT_ALIAS.DAT that I can be in those directories.  This file maps alias names for the fonts to  the "real" font name.   J On UNIX, these files had .dir extensions, which is/was pretty confusing on VMS.  C The font directory files are created by using the FONT/DIR command.   = >Anyway, where can I find such a list, if there is one, on my  >ever-so-wonder - >alpha OpenVMS v7.2-1, and v7.3 workstations?  >   D If you want a list of the available fonts, you can use any number ofK programs that display fonts.  Or you can append all the font directory data C files.  You can find all the aliases by looking at the alias files.   > >And to expand on that... Would anybody want to comment on the >differencesH >between the C programming environments between VMS and typical unix? (I >know,- >there is no such thing as a "typical" unix.)  >   H The main difference is that you can't use a connection number to pass toK select() like a file number.  Nor can you fork().  You also can't pass file F numbers to the X11 calls that wait for an event (you need to use event flags).   K In V1.2-6 of Motif, and even more in V1.3 (comming soon) - some of the more L fringe stuff that didn't work before - because it wasn't very VMS-ish - willF work as part of the compliance work we did - like UIDPATH - or all the- various "standard" X11 environment variables.    > G >And does anybody have some pointers to more information. I know it may  >be H >asking a lot for tutorials geared toward VMS. But examples etc. Even if >they'reH >not VMS designed. I'm starting to get a handle on all the concepts. But >it'd beI >nice to see some examples of simple actions. Like "this is how you build  >aB >pulldown menu" "this is how on would implement an input routine." >   J Pretty much the UNIX documentation is what you'd use.  Not really anythingJ different in the specific X11 and Motif calls.  You might also look at theL GUI builder stuff from ICS.  That allows you design the windows in a WYSIWYGH editor, which creates C code for all the Motif calls - and then you just fill in the action routines.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:39:58 GMT $ From: "Bill Clark" <bclark@lrgh.org>! Subject: Convert conundrum. Help? A Message-ID: <yWVW8.59088$Im2.2615375@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   	 greetings >     while 'CONVERT'ing a file i get 'SORT' error messages; theB     'CONVERT' seems to work, the file is fine when all is said andD     done ('ANALYZE/RMS' returns no errors. Details below. Any ideas?'         (File Size:  3,458,000 blocks.) D         ( Sortwork0, sortwork1... etc disks have ample room (or so i	 thought))  ............................ (00:41)$I (00:41)$  CONVERT/STAT/FDL=PD_FDL:PDP_L_CCSUM.FDL/nosort/fast/work=3    - I               DISK$SMSUSER0:[CONVERT]PDICCSUM.OLD                       - >                 DISK$SMSPRDDAT01:[SMSPRD.PDS.DATA]PDICCSUM.DAT& %SORT-W-SYSERROR, system service error- -LIB-F-INSVIRMEM, insufficient virtual memory & %SORT-W-SYSERROR, system service error- -LIB-F-INSVIRMEM, insufficient virtual memory & %SORT-W-SYSERROR, system service error- -LIB-F-INSVIRMEM, insufficient virtual memory	& %SORT-W-SYSERROR, system service error- -LIB-F-INSVIRMEM, insufficient virtual memoryC     CONVERT Statistics$ Number of Files Processed:         1H Total Records Processed:     6196149    Buffered I/O Count:          143H Total Exception Records:           0    Direct I/O Count:         634646H Total Valid Records:         6196149    Page Faults:               24371H Elapsed Time:          0 00:54:43.02    CPU Time:          0 00:14:03.93 (01:36)$
 (01:36)$ !" (01:36)$  END_CONVERT_PDICCS_FILE: ................  '     thanks in advance for any insights.i bclark at  lrgh dot org4   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:24:35 +0200e9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>t% Subject: Re: Convert conundrum. Help? & Message-ID: <3D2C3593.69781FE@aaa.com>  < Those are not *error* messages, they are *warnings* ("-W-"). Makes a big difference.n  2 In this case, this time, all might have gone well. Next time, maybe not.n  3 The "virtual memory" isn't disk space, it's memory.i3 You might have to check your AUF quotas and/or someo sysgen params.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.n       Bill Clark wrote:i >  > greetings < >     while 'CONVERT'ing a file i get 'SORT' error messages;  ( > %SORT-W-SYSERROR, system service error/ > -LIB-F-INSVIRMEM, insufficient virtual memoryo   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:38:16 -0400  From: William_Bochnik@acml.com% Subject: Re: Convert conundrum. Help? > Message-ID: <OF24CA3443.48A1A455-ON85256BF2.004ACE8F@acml.com>  A also should point out that the convert verb probably runs sort as ? the exe - not a lot of people (if they come from the Unix or NTt world) may realize that.      H                                                                        =)                                       =20 H                       Jan-Erik                                         =)                                       =20.H                       S=F6derholm                       To:  Info-VAX@M=+ vb.Saic.Com@SMTP@SCB                    =20.H                       <aaa@aaa.com>                   cc:              =)                                       =20cH                                                Subject: Re: Convert con=) undrum. Help?                         =20eH                       07/10/2002 09:24                                 =)                                       =20DH                       AM                                               =)                                       =20iH                       Please respond                                   =)                                       =20IH                       to Jan-Erik                                      =)                                       =20tH                       S=F6derholm                                      =+                                         =20tH                       <aaa@aaa.com>                                    =)                                       =20cH                                                                        =)                                       =20eH                                                                        =)                                       =20s      < Those are not *error* messages, they are *warnings* ("-W-"). Makes a big difference.   2 In this case, this time, all might have gone well. Next time, maybe not.   3 The "virtual memory" isn't disk space, it's memory. 3 You might have to check your AUF quotas and/or some  sysgen params.   Jan-Erik S=F6derholm.        Bill Clark wrote:A >s > greetingse< >     while 'CONVERT'ing a file i get 'SORT' error messages;  ( > %SORT-W-SYSERROR, system service error/ > -LIB-F-INSVIRMEM, insufficient virtual memory               H The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged a=8 nd confidential information and is intended only for theH use of the person(s) named above.  If you are not the intended recipien=: t, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering thisH message to the intended recipient, any review, dissemination, distribut=4 ion or duplication of this communication is strictlyH prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the =9 sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copiesw of the original message.   =e   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 09:07:04 +0200+ From: huber@vms.mppmu.mpg.de (Joseph Huber)-- Subject: Re: Disk drives for Digital PW 433au1+ Message-ID: <VaXWk2VYNivW@vms.mppmu.mpg.de>n  k In article <4da983bf.0207090946.370bb4fc@posting.google.com>, david.m.gray@bigfoot.com (David Gray) writes:>
 > Hi all,  > G > I have just bought a Digital PW 433au and am intending to run OpenVMSdH > on it via the hobbyist program.   The machine has a 2gb SCSI drive andH > I would like to add a further 18gb or 36gb disk to it but am wondering< > if, space permitting I can add standard SCSI drives to it. > H > Has anyone got one of the 433/500/600au series that has gone thru this > route before.i >   / I recently installed 70GB Seagate Cheetah 73LP:   N Disk MPIW03$DKA100:, device type SEAGATE ST373405LW, is online, mounted, file-H     oriented device, shareable, served to cluster via MSCP Server, error logging      is enabled.e  O     Error count                    0    Operations completed            1486919iO     Owner process                 ""    Owner UIC                      [SYSTEM]-O     Owner process ID        00000000    Dev Prot            S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,WnO     Reference count                1    Default buffer size                 5121O     Current preferred CPU Id       0    Fastpath                              1pO     Total blocks           143374741    Sectors per track                    96<O     Total cylinders            15558    Tracks per cylinder                  96i      (PWS 433au, VMS 7.3)g   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:56:29 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> - Subject: Re: Disk drives for Digital PW 433aug8 Message-ID: <uatniu42ds7bgdla53gkumm49lmg0ql36q@4ax.com>  C On 9 Jul 2002 10:46:02 -0700, david.m.gray@bigfoot.com (David Gray)o wrote:  	 >Hi all, e > F >I have just bought a Digital PW 433au and am intending to run OpenVMSG >on it via the hobbyist program.   The machine has a 2gb SCSI drive and G >I would like to add a further 18gb or 36gb disk to it but am wonderinga; >if, space permitting I can add standard SCSI drives to it.s  E In general, yes. Also see the recent posts concerning IDE drives withp a SCSI/IDE adaptor.a   >gG >Has anyone got one of the 433/500/600au series that has gone thru thisi >route before. >rF >Also I have joined CUO-UK to get the license but wonderee where I can >buy the installation CDs.  B You can order the VMS hobby installation + layered products CDs at  + http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.htmlw    > "There are two kits available: The Alpha Kit and the VAX Kit. 6 OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kit  OpenVMS VAX Hobbyist Kit         & OpenVMS V7.2 DECWindows 1.2.5 (Motif) # DECnet Phase IV DECnet OSI Phase V l TCPIP V5.0 DCOM 
 AMDS Java 
 DEC C Pascal   FORTRAN COBOL  Notes Netscape Navigator 0  l  A OpenVMS kits are $30/ea (includes shipping, even to Internationalc
 members)."  D Alternatively you can install from standard VMS distributions if youF can borrow one. Several of us in the UK can probably help there. Which# part of the UK are you located in? a         >Thanks in advance.  >f >David Gray.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:40:43 -0600t From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>l Subject: DS10 shutting down $ Message-ID: <3D2C557B.10904@srv.net>  ? I have a customer with an Alpha DS10 that keeps powering itself2; down (at least once a day).  Nothing on the screen (DS10 ism1 powered down). I know that if a fan stops, it cane4 do this, but the fans on this box all seem to be OK.  = Is there anything besides fans that can cause one of these tot= power itself off, and is there any place I can look that willK< tell me why it has done this, like a show command at the >>> prompt?s  ; System seems to be clean (no dust bunnies inside the case),i5 it's not in a very hot room, it's plugged into a UPS,d4 UPS seems to be Ok, Windows PC's at the site are not	 crashing.c   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:34:07 GMTr5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>i Subject: Re: DS10 shutting down 2 Message-ID: <3mZW8.12$5q6.248894@news.cpqcorp.net>  K Over temp is the most likely cause.  You need to run the error log analyzersG tool on the error log to find out the machine check that occured.  Call-F field service, they can do this for you, and find out the failing FRU.    8 Kevin Handy wrote in message <3D2C557B.10904@srv.net>...@ >I have a customer with an Alpha DS10 that keeps powering itself< >down (at least once a day).  Nothing on the screen (DS10 is2 >powered down). I know that if a fan stops, it can5 >do this, but the fans on this box all seem to be OK.. >p> >Is there anything besides fans that can cause one of these to> >power itself off, and is there any place I can look that will= >tell me why it has done this, like a show command at the >>>  >prompt? >-< >System seems to be clean (no dust bunnies inside the case),6 >it's not in a very hot room, it's plugged into a UPS,5 >UPS seems to be Ok, Windows PC's at the site are not5
 >crashing. >.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:46:08 -0500 * From: "Dave Gudewicz" <dgudewicz@core.com> Subject: Re: DS10 shutting down 8 Message-ID: <3d2c64ce$0$1429$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net>  * Just a guess, but how's the CPU fan doing?   -- Dave...t  G It is noble to teach oneself, but still nobler to teach others-and less  trouble. -----Mark Twain   K "Kevin Handy" <kth@srv.net> wrote in message news:3D2C557B.10904@srv.net...eA > I have a customer with an Alpha DS10 that keeps powering itselfa= > down (at least once a day).  Nothing on the screen (DS10 iso3 > powered down). I know that if a fan stops, it can 6 > do this, but the fans on this box all seem to be OK. >t? > Is there anything besides fans that can cause one of these too? > power itself off, and is there any place I can look that willl> > tell me why it has done this, like a show command at the >>>	 > prompt?r > = > System seems to be clean (no dust bunnies inside the case),s7 > it's not in a very hot room, it's plugged into a UPS,t6 > UPS seems to be Ok, Windows PC's at the site are not > crashing.- >-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:09:55 -0600p From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>: Subject: Re: DS10 shutting downn& Message-ID: <3D2C6A63.3020703@srv.net>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:M > Over temp is the most likely cause.  You need to run the error log analyzereI > tool on the error log to find out the machine check that occured.  CalliH > field service, they can do this for you, and find out the failing FRU.  4 Nothing seems to be logged at the time of the crash.= DIAG/SINCE=YESTERDAY only shows a few entries occuring during ? boot 'cold start, ...', all with a 'time since last boot' undereB one minute. There are some later tape mount/dismount messages, andC some timestamps, but these are expected.  Nothing shown at the time  of the power down.  < I think the command at the '>>>' prompt I was looking for is? 'show power', and plan on looking at it next time it goes down.t   >  > : > Kevin Handy wrote in message <3D2C557B.10904@srv.net>... > A >>I have a customer with an Alpha DS10 that keeps powering itself = >>down (at least once a day).  Nothing on the screen (DS10 isi3 >>powered down). I know that if a fan stops, it cans6 >>do this, but the fans on this box all seem to be OK. >>? >>Is there anything besides fans that can cause one of these toX? >>power itself off, and is there any place I can look that wille> >>tell me why it has done this, like a show command at the >>>	 >>prompt?i >>= >>System seems to be clean (no dust bunnies inside the case), 7 >>it's not in a very hot room, it's plugged into a UPS, 6 >>UPS seems to be Ok, Windows PC's at the site are not >>crashing.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:15:08 -0600n From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>a Subject: Re: DS10 shutting downt& Message-ID: <3D2C6B9C.6080007@srv.net>   Dave Gudewicz wrote:, > Just a guess, but how's the CPU fan doing?  ? Seems fine. Looks clean, and spins quietly (well, as quietly asa> a box full of fans ever is). All three fans seem to be Ok from what I can see.t   >  > --	 > Dave...  > I > It is noble to teach oneself, but still nobler to teach others-and lessn
 > trouble. > -----Mark Twaino > M > "Kevin Handy" <kth@srv.net> wrote in message news:3D2C557B.10904@srv.net...e > A >>I have a customer with an Alpha DS10 that keeps powering itselfa= >>down (at least once a day).  Nothing on the screen (DS10 iso3 >>powered down). I know that if a fan stops, it cano6 >>do this, but the fans on this box all seem to be OK. >>? >>Is there anything besides fans that can cause one of these tos? >>power itself off, and is there any place I can look that willi> >>tell me why it has done this, like a show command at the >>>	 >>prompt?a >>= >>System seems to be clean (no dust bunnies inside the case),t7 >>it's not in a very hot room, it's plugged into a UPS,t6 >>UPS seems to be Ok, Windows PC's at the site are not >>crashing.a >> >  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 12:28:30 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i Subject: Re: DS10 shutting downe3 Message-ID: <z4kvMJBceDEo@eisner.encompasserve.org>   F In article <3D2C557B.10904@srv.net>, Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> writes:A > I have a customer with an Alpha DS10 that keeps powering itself = > down (at least once a day).  Nothing on the screen (DS10 isg3 > powered down). I know that if a fan stops, it can,6 > do this, but the fans on this box all seem to be OK. >   E    I know you say it looks clean, but we learned the hard way to keepeC    the airflow detector swithces on our 11/780s clean or they wouldlE    think the fan is not running.  The rest of the 780 did look clean.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:14:34 +0300s* From: Mike Rechtman <rechtman@tzora.co.il>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion-* Message-ID: <3D2BD0CA.9040308@tzora.co.il>   Kenneth H. Fairfield wrote:a   > Sue Skonetski wrote: >  > 3 >>What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?m >> > , >     A BIG RESOUNDING YES, THANK YOU M'AM!! >    Me too!! Me too!!l     >  <snipped...> > E >     Intro level is probably not necessary and might be distracting.aI > I don't think we're talking about mass-mailing to newbies and managers.iE > A Technical journal will appeal to technical professionals who willsC > expect more meat, less fat.  Keep it to medium & advanced topics.X > C There is a definite _lack_ of intro-level stuff. I meet sysmgrs whos  I won't send new personnel on courses "till they know something" - because rH then the course process becomes more efficient - and leave them to pick D at what they can, meanwhile solving problems in the most roundabout G ways, and creating new problems as they go along. Even at the operator 0E level (setting up backups, handling media etc.) the job will be done t( better when theres more basic knowledge.  H As an aside: does anyone remember the "VMS primer"? Circa V4.7 - V5.5-2.   Mike   >     Thanks! Kenr > --8 > I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me... >  > Ken Fairfield # > F20 Automation VMS System Supportr > kenneth.h.fairfield#intel.com  >  >  >      -- 4  & New to c.o.vms? allow me to recommend:6 http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~rechtman/post_hlp.htmE ---------------------------------------------------------------------_E Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that.R? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il* E Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home):(972)-2-9908337mC    "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%"-E ---------------------------------------------------------------------l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:14:14 +0100c( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionn) Message-ID: <3D2BECD6.422A0504@127.0.0.1>t   Mike Rechtman wrote: >  > Kenneth H. Fairfield wrote:  >  > > Sue Skonetski wrote:   > >OG > >     Intro level is probably not necessary and might be distracting.CK > > I don't think we're talking about mass-mailing to newbies and managers. G > > A Technical journal will appeal to technical professionals who will E > > expect more meat, less fat.  Keep it to medium & advanced topics.L > >.E > There is a definite _lack_ of intro-level stuff. I meet sysmgrs whol > J > won't send new personnel on courses "till they know something" - becauseI > then the course process becomes more efficient - and leave them to pickcE > at what they can, meanwhile solving problems in the most roundabout>H > ways, and creating new problems as they go along. Even at the operatorF > level (setting up backups, handling media etc.) the job will be done* > better when theres more basic knowledge.  G Have you read the OpenVMS documentation set recently, I mean read them.   < http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/6489/6489pro.html  C Personally I think chapter 1 does a good job. Similarly with system  management:m  < http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/6489/6489pro.html   and online a primer...  + http://www.openvms.compaq.com/training.html   D I guess if the documentation set doesn't provide what is needed thenH feedback should be provided so that it does. I believe it is correct andC right that *any* operating systems' documentation should be able toe@ guide you through concepts and first principles (not necessarily, technology familiarity) into using a system. -- t? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:16:26 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion ) Message-ID: <3D2BED5A.52C1A1D6@127.0.0.1>    "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > John,. > J > Re: older articles .. Excellent idea. I just dusted off my copies of DTJG > and there are some great ones that would still apply today.. E.g. Howc  > OpenVMS was adapted for 64bit. > J > Here is the pointer to the archived Digital Technical Journal documents: > 1 > http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/  > > > And here is the format that these articles are available in: > Html, Text, PostScript, Pdf  >  > :-)   H It would be great if some of the earlier text-only articles were updated4 to HTML to include the diagrams referred to. Please?   Also, journals prior to Vol 3?   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:36:06 +0100e( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion ) Message-ID: <3D2BF1F6.D4CF62F1@127.0.0.1>m   Sue Skonetski wrote: >   3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?    Oh yes, much needed.  4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >  > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a year   = Yes, but up to quarterly. Since the demise, there is a lot of E information to be updated and conveyed, so a higher initial frequency E would get the information out to the hungry. Not the commitment of an A 'internals' style book, but short articles allow the engineers to H explain the features and constraints of parts of our favourite operating system.q  a > Q.    What kind of format.D > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.  C But make sure it's printable. HTML is another good one, others nameR& mentioned PS, which would be nice too.  F! > Q.    Who could submit articlesmJ > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle.  G I would say a mixture of real world experiences, and the engineers that  coded the damn thing!   o > Q.    What would be the focuseM > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination ofi > advanced and intro level.a  & Advanced, limited space, limited time.  b( > Any questions or comments are welcome.  @ If you want a list of starting topics just ask my local friendly@ ambassador (you know him - DF) what I've been hassling him about) recently. I've dropped hints here too :-):   -- 0? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com3   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:13:13 +01000% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> % Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionr8 Message-ID: <3iuniu8vi3dau5g4tgrauca95b4soon6to@4ax.com>  F On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 02:43:22 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   > A >"Kenneth H. Fairfield" <My.Full.Name@intel.com> wrote in message8$ >news:3D2B4FBB.570F5D94@intel.com... >>F >>     Intro level is probably not necessary and might be distracting.J >> I don't think we're talking about mass-mailing to newbies and managers.F >> A Technical journal will appeal to technical professionals who willD >> expect more meat, less fat.  Keep it to medium & advanced topics. >> > H >Have to have something for the newbies, otherwise the bossman will say,K >"Since there aren't any 'VMS for Dummies' books, what are we going to givec  ? There is/was the "OpenVMS and NT integration for dummies" book. = Despite the name it was mainly VMS. Don't know if it is stillD orderable from Compaq. Sue?   C >the whole staff to learn from when we bring that new-fangled Alpha L >thing-a-ma-bob into the shop. Remember, our guys grew up on Windows in highJ >school and unix in college. They know nothing about VMS. Come to think ofJ >it, why in the hell did I ever let me talk you into buying this VMS thingK >anyway. We're going to have to spend money training our people, when if weSG >went with unix they'd already have their experience in college. You're2J >fired. Get outta here pronto. We'll clear your desk out for you. Somebody >call Security!!!"   :-) >-1 >Sad, because it's perilously close to the truth.  >9   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:16:18 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>3% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion 8 Message-ID: <amuniuke98dkeq9jperhc6jmvh1qv6iear@4ax.com>  F On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 02:48:51 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:   >r< >"Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message; >news:20020710023122.94706.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com...  >> Nice idea ! >>0 >> But I would like this magazine going together1 >> with Oracle Magazine with some Oracle RDB Ads,r >> for example...A >  >aL >But that sort of thing would require a real commitment from HP. Be thankful6 >for the crumbs (no offense Sue) being tossed our way. >yM >BTW...anyone seen any great OpenVMS ads in Computerworld or Information WeekeH >lately? No....didn't think so. Come to think of it, I haven't seen any, >great or otherwise.  > It's just a year or two since there was a short run of VMS adsF (featuring Norther Light) in the UK trade press (first for many years)@ which, I am told, produced noticeable results. Don't know why we> haven't seen any new ones given that I was told there would be     -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:34:49 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGe% Subject: Re: Looking for your opiniont0 Message-ID: <00A10B64.5AB315BD@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <3D2B8CC0.409D1170@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >Christoph Gartmann wrote:O >> I would prefer a printed copy. This one will lay on my desk and remind me to.C >> read it. And just browsing is a lot easier in a printed journal.e >gN >The advantage of printed copy is that one can distribute it to others who mayN >not be VMS bigots and may help turn the tide against VMS in a shop. Sending aN >document by email or just a link just doesn't have the same impact to impress >as does printed copy. >sO >However, I realise that costs for printed copy, as well as time delay are much N >higher, and I would prefer having contents electronically and more frequentlyJ >than having some hardcopy that may be cut because of budget cutbacks etc. > N >In the past, it seems that every VMS printed endeavour ended up morphing intoK >some wintel sales pitch by the owning company. If this stays electronic, IeN >feel it may have a better chance of keeping its independance from HP and thus/ >be more valuable to those who benefit from it.t >mK >If it send as PDF, it can then be printed (colour to those who have colour P >printers) and be quite presentable. (another reason I am against HTML content).  H I have a color printer and it takes postscript.  Conversions from PDF to PS just don't cut it.n --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            y5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" n   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 07:40:13 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)s% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionp3 Message-ID: <P4XShAF+Tcgo@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  b In article <agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> writes: > 3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?n > 4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >  > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a year. >  > Q.    What kind of format-D > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent. > ! > Q.    Who could submit articlestJ > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle. >  > Q.    What would be the focus M > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination ofn > advanced and intro level.n > ( > Any questions or comments are welcome.      Yes, No, Yes, Yes.l  G    The PDF viewers for VMS still aren't worth the bits they're made of.gG    Distributing PDF will be looked upon as not understanding the target E    audience, even though almost all of us can bring it up and read itt     just fine on or Macs and PCs.  "    About VMS, for VMS, and ON VMS.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 07:37:14 -05003 From: Ken Robinson <ken.s.robinson@exxonmobile.com>m% Subject: Re: Looking for your opiniono; Message-ID: <Xns92475BCBD529Aksrobinerenjcom@66.150.105.66>o  0 koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote in, news:P4XShAF+Tcgo@eisner.encompasserve.org:   < > In article <agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, "Sue Skonetski"* > <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> writes:  >> :4 >> What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal? >> 05 >> Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far)s >> m >> Q.    How often?u >> A.    Probably twice a year >>   >> Q.    What kind of formatE >> A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.  >> i" >> Q.    Who could submit articlesC >> A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction isN9 >> anyone, there would be an acceptance and review cycle.t >> d  >> Q.    What would be the focus? >> A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level,/+ >> combination of advanced and intro level.t >> a) >> Any questions or comments are welcome.f >  >    Yes, No, Yes, Yes.h > E >    The PDF viewers for VMS still aren't worth the bits they're madeoF >    of. Distributing PDF will be looked upon as not understanding theF >    target audience, even though almost all of us can bring it up and* >    read it just fine on or Macs and PCs. > $ >    About VMS, for VMS, and ON VMS. >    About VMS ... yeseH For Promoting VMS ... yes ... The way I see this publication is that it L won't only be for those already knowledgeble about VMS, but also to educate J computer savvy people who know other technologies, therefore it should be - readable by those people. PDF and PS formats.a  L I will add my vote that this is a VERY GOOD idea that should have been done > years ago and I will be very glad to see it when it comes out.   Ken Robinson 22+ years on VMS kenrbnsn1 (at) rcn.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:46:46 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>e% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionD8 Message-ID: <e9eoiu036fnldeor0ed6tleem55otsgr79@4ax.com>  F On 10 Jul 2002 07:40:13 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:     >kH >   The PDF viewers for VMS still aren't worth the bits they're made of.H >   Distributing PDF will be looked upon as not understanding the targetF >   audience, even though almost all of us can bring it up and read it! >   just fine on or Macs and PCs.M  D As just about any modern preparation system will allow the output toC be created as PDF, Postscript and HTML, I don't think we should getaE hung up on this. Let;'s just make all three formats available for all A the little extra effort required. The "publishing" process itselfa? should take the master document and automatically provide it in> several formats.  F If someone would please contact Adobe and ask why the generic JAVA PDF: viewer needs a library provided by Apple (thus causing the; installation to fail on VMS) that would be helpful as well.y   >s# >   About VMS, for VMS, and ON VMS.i   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:01:38 +0200o= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> % Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion-) Message-ID: <3D2C3E42.5C3FCBC7@gtech.com>    Sue Skonetski wrote:3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?e   Great idea.M  4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >  > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a year    Makes sense.  i > Q.    What kind of formatoD > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.  9 Any VMS-friendly format: PDF or PS or HTML with GIF/JPEG.,   ! > Q.    Who could submit articleslJ > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle.   Yep.  1 > Q.    What would be the focusiM > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of- > advanced and intro level.e  / I think you should focus on the advanced level.    Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:19:12 -0400C* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>% Subject: RE: Looking for your opinion - Message-ID: <0033000071906320000002L002*@MHS>l  / =0AI concur on the multiple formats suggestion.N  7 Bookreader by definition equals preaching to the choir.>  > And I think we all agree that preaching to the choir isn't the" most effective way to proselytize.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETt' Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:08 AMtB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET% Subject: RE: Looking for your opinion     F On 10 Jul 2002 07:40:13 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:     >"H >   The PDF viewers for VMS still aren't worth the bits they're made of= . H >   Distributing PDF will be looked upon as not understanding the targe= t F >   audience, even though almost all of us can bring it up and read it! >   just fine on or Macs and PCs.l  D As just about any modern preparation system will allow the output toC be created as PDF, Postscript and HTML, I don't think we should get E hung up on this. Let;'s just make all three formats available for all A the little extra effort required. The "publishing" process itselfu? should take the master document and automatically provide it in  several formats.  F If someone would please contact Adobe and ask why the generic JAVA PDF: viewer needs a library provided by Apple (thus causing the; installation to fail on VMS) that would be helpful as well.p   >s# >   About VMS, for VMS, and ON VMS.t   -- Alan=t   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:46:36 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>9% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion8E Message-ID: <gNXW8.2102$wLk.481@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>-  2 "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message2 news:amuniuke98dkeq9jperhc6jmvh1qv6iear@4ax.com...H > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 02:48:51 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote: >g >r@ > It's just a year or two since there was a short run of VMS adsH > (featuring Norther Light) in the UK trade press (first for many years)B > which, I am told, produced noticeable results. Don't know why we@ > haven't seen any new ones given that I was told there would be    ( VMS isn't being sold to *new* customers.$ Advertising brings in new customers. Hence, no advertising.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:49:27 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> % Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion E Message-ID: <XPXW8.651$6DW1.553@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>b  : "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:P4XShAF+Tcgo@eisner.encompasserve.org...h > I >    The PDF viewers for VMS still aren't worth the bits they're made of. I >    Distributing PDF will be looked upon as not understanding the targetnG >    audience, even though almost all of us can bring it up and read ite" >    just fine on or Macs and PCs. >e$ >    About VMS, for VMS, and ON VMS.    J My Alpha doesn't fit on my seatback table at 35,000 feet, so Bookreader isL out. Besides when I want to open the window to cool the thing off, the cabin* attendants and pilots give me funny looks.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:45:05 -0500r* From: "Dave Gudewicz" <dgudewicz@core.com>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionn8 Message-ID: <3d2c486f$0$1433$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net>  @ "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message$ news:agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com...  3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?o      Wonderful idea.  4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >g > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a year       Quarterly   > Q.    What kind of format1D > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.  F    As with the FAQ, give people a choice.  Focus on content, not form.  ! > Q.    Who could submit articles J > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle.       I liked Ken Fairchild's idea.   > Q.    What would be the focus J > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of > advanced and intro level.c  J     All levels make sense to me.  Leave one out and you leave that crop of readers out.  And I caneK     echo Ken's Windows in H.S.--> U**X in college comment.  I have a summert intern and that'seK     exactly what's going on with him.  I'm sure there are others in similarr" situations.  This needs to change.G     Perhaps this publication winding up in school libraries and CS labs  would make sense.  Nice PR too.-  ( > Any questions or comments are welcome.  7    May the gods look with favor upon you and yours Sue.R   > Warm Regards,  > Sue    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:32:26 -0400 5 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> % Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion * Message-ID: <aghghn$fbc$1@web1.cup.hp.com>   Dear Newsgroup,   K Thank you all very much, you have provided some excellent feedback.  I willrH keep you posted on how things progress at this end.  Please keep in mindG that at this point I am still in the research stage, so I do not have am6 publication date yet (that is to VAXman and Terry) ;')  J Just so you know and Warren will correct me if I am wrong.  I believe thatH if we do a PDF output we can also translate the PDF to html, so we couldI have both.  Funny I remember when SDML (runoff) was the only decent print K option.  There was someone who mentioned plain txt, which to tell the truthoI I had not thought about because I thought that there might be a number oft7 diagrams which can be difficult, but I will look at it.   B Just to answer some of the questions and comments you have raised.  J What about Hardcopy I think this was from JF but he answered the question.I Not only is it expensive and time consuming you have to distribute (snailo mail).  C We do not need intro material.  That is true you may not need introaE material, but it would be great to pass the issue to someone that was H technically aware and be able to have them understand an article or two.  - I like the idea of a hints and kinks section.   K Excellent idea of going back to DTJ and updating some of the articles, very, good and very needed.P  D Just so you know, I picked twice a year because its always easier toJ increase if we get the demand and the articles than to reduce if we do not get the support.   Warm Regards and thanks again.   suen          @ "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message$ news:agfa7k$n7c$1@web1.cup.hp.com...F > This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for yourJ > opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choirH > again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research only& > and is not a commitment from anyone. >sJ > One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times isL > that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300I > words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJ 2 > (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good. > 3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?M >n4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >  > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a yearl >r > Q.    What kind of formateD > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent. >o! > Q.    Who could submit articles J > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle. >I > Q.    What would be the focus J > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of > advanced and intro level.  >y( > Any questions or comments are welcome. >Y > Warm Regards,e > Sue  >e >o   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:01:00 GMT)1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>u% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion-. Message-ID: <M_XW8.471536$cQ3.40016@sccrnsc01>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message? news:eLXW8.587$6DW1.186@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...e >p <snip> >vG > FWIW, here is the complete list of books that Amazon.com returns whenoH > searching on "VAX/VMS" and "OpenVMS", not that this list is a complete list > of VMS-related books.9 >6? > When I searched on HP-UX and HP/UX, only 27 titles showed up.w >d <snip>   > 15. Introduction to Vax/Vmst, > by Terry C. Shannon (Paperback - May 1985)$ > Out of Print--Limited Availability    L "Limited Availability" is an understatement. I have exactly one copy of thisH 17-year-old tome. Which is probably just as well as the book is based on VAX/VMS 4.0i   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:02:23 GMTe1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>e% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion . Message-ID: <30YW8.471547$cQ3.40153@sccrnsc01>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message? news:XPXW8.651$6DW1.553@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...  > < > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:P4XShAF+Tcgo@eisner.encompasserve.org...- > > K > >    The PDF viewers for VMS still aren't worth the bits they're made of.:K > >    Distributing PDF will be looked upon as not understanding the targetRI > >    audience, even though almost all of us can bring it up and read itt$ > >    just fine on or Macs and PCs. > > & > >    About VMS, for VMS, and ON VMS. >h >oL > My Alpha doesn't fit on my seatback table at 35,000 feet, so Bookreader isH > out. Besides when I want to open the window to cool the thing off, the cabinc, > attendants and pilots give me funny looks. >i  H Apparently you don't have a Tadpole Alphabook I. It'll fit on a seatback= table, but the battery is only good for about 45 minutes. ;-}p   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:01:59 -0600 (MDT)," From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opiniontG Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0207100841450.13357-100000@athena.csdco.com>    Sue,  K This would be quite useful in dealing with state government agencies.  Theye* need occasional reassurance as to why VMS.  
 John Nebel    ( On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Sue Skonetski wrote:  F > This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for yourJ > opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choirM > again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research onlyr& > and is not a commitment from anyone. > M > One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times is L > that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300I > words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJW2 > (Digital Technical Journal) which was very good. > 3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?4 > 4 > Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far) >  > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a yearP >  > Q.    What kind of formatoD > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent. > ! > Q.    Who could submit articles J > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle. >  > Q.    What would be the focusyM > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination ofs > advanced and intro level.  > ( > Any questions or comments are welcome. >  > Warm Regards,t > Sueo >  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:22:01 GMTl# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>u% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionoE Message-ID: <tiYW8.958$6DW1.525@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>n  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:M_XW8.471536$cQ3.40016@sccrnsc01... >a >' > > 15. Introduction to Vax/Vmsg. > > by Terry C. Shannon (Paperback - May 1985)& > > Out of Print--Limited Availability >e >hI > "Limited Availability" is an understatement. I have exactly one copy of  thisJ > 17-year-old tome. Which is probably just as well as the book is based on
 > VAX/VMS 4.02     Time do do a 2nd edition then.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:23:30 +0100o( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinions) Message-ID: <3D2C5172.65BBC4ED@127.0.0.1>h   John Smith wrote:a > > > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message* > news:M_XW8.471536$cQ3.40016@sccrnsc01... > >s > >>! > > > 15. Introduction to Vax/VmsM0 > > > by Terry C. Shannon (Paperback - May 1985)( > > > Out of Print--Limited Availability > >  > >oK > > "Limited Availability" is an understatement. I have exactly one copy of> > thisL > > 17-year-old tome. Which is probably just as well as the book is based on > > VAX/VMS 4.0r >   > Time do do a 2nd edition then.  $ John, when are you starting work on:  N > Probably what is needed most for VMS newbies is a book entitled, "Everything= > You Know Is Wrong - A Guide to OpenVMS for Unix and WindowsaM > Programmers/Users/Managers" (c) 2002, John Smith. All Rights Reserved. :-) q   The title is excellent.l   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesi nclews at csc dot coms   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:32:18 GMTr1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>o% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionr. Message-ID: <6sYW8.471751$cQ3.40106@sccrnsc01>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message? news:tiYW8.958$6DW1.525@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...i >i> > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message* > news:M_XW8.471536$cQ3.40016@sccrnsc01... > >h > >w! > > > 15. Introduction to Vax/Vmsh0 > > > by Terry C. Shannon (Paperback - May 1985)( > > > Out of Print--Limited Availability > >Y > > K > > "Limited Availability" is an understatement. I have exactly one copy of  > thisL > > 17-year-old tome. Which is probably just as well as the book is based on > > VAX/VMS 4.0- >- >   > Time do do a 2nd edition then. >0  J For what it's worth, the book is now in it's fifth edition. My involvementK ceased when I completed the first edition and ceded my copyright ("A Verbal0F Contract Isn't Worth The Paper It's Printed On," Lesson 17, T. ShannonJ School of Hard Knocks). Digital Press acquired the rights to the book when@ Professional Press went under, and will happily sell you a copy.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:04:41 -0700a  From: Jon <jsmyth69@hotmail.com>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opiniona8 Message-ID: <46joiu8oauav12gsnbou8fehib7fnvpqo3@4ax.com>  
 Sounds great!T  6 "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote:  E >This is just some research that I am doing and I am looking for youreI >opinion.  And while some of you may say that I am preaching to the choirnL >again, I prefer to think of it as talking to family.  This is research only% >and is not a commitment from anyone.A >FL >One of the things that I noticed when I was the editor of  OpenVMS times isK >that it was very difficult to convey in depth technical information in 300nH >words or less.  If you have been around for awhile you may remember DTJ1 >(Digital Technical Journal) which was very good.? >h2 >What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal? >f3 >Questions and Answers (what I have learned so far)h >m >Q.    How often?  >A.    Probably twice a year >O >Q.    What kind of formatC >A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.) >   >Q.    Who could submit articlesI >A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone, / >there would be an acceptance and review cycle.e >t >Q.    What would be the focusL >A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of >advanced and intro level. >i' >Any questions or comments are welcome.n >  >Warm Regards, >Sue >t   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:46:42 +0100 (MET)n9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>i% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion ; Message-ID: <01KJXRWTGEQ296Y2PR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>-  3 > What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?1  
 Good idea.   > Q.    How often? > A.    Probably twice a year:  
 Quarterly.   > Q.    What kind of format0D > A.     Electronic only, probably PDF so it prints somewhat decent.  F Most of the responses concentrated on this.  Here are the suggestions , and their main advantages and disadvantages:      plain text: e  A    A: emailable (even to/from vanilla VMS mail), CAN be printed, g       compact, searchablee  G    D: no graphics or fancy layout (though perhaps you could contact the C       chap who runs http://www.asciimation.co.nz where I was quite cI       impressed by the old (7-bit printable ASCII) and new (java applet, r,       not that I know much about the latter)        BOOKREADER: r  H    A: CAN be printed, searchable (even a whole collection of books; withD       HTML just a page at a time unless one has one big pages, whichB       has its disadvantages), very nice if one is familiar with it  #    D: not suitable for new convertss        PostScript: e  3    A: the best to print, hands down; CAN be emailed   "    D: not searchable, can be large        HTML:      A: best for online access  9    D: not really very searchable (see above) or printablee    E    PDF: my impression is that PDF tries to do all things a bit ratherc"         than some things very well  I There is a frequent poster here who works in VMS engineering and is very  H knowledgeable about VMS and recently discussed formats for the FAQ here.D Why not the same approach: use a tool (DOCUMENT?) which can produce F multiple formats, so you have one source and many formats without the F extra work.  Put them all on a WWW site and/or FTP server; people can B get those formats they need and redistribute them as appropriate,  including printing them.  F Yes, the web, electronic media etc can lead to new functionality, but D there is also an advantage in having something which is "published" > rarely and "cast in stone".  In other words, conceptually and H emotionally a hard-copy journal, even if it is not actually produced in  hard copy (at your end).  E See http://www.livingreviews.org/ for an excellent example of a GOOD  > (purely) electronic journal which has all the advantages of a  traditional journal.  ! > Q.    Who could submit articles J > A.    I have not thought this through yet.  My first reaction is anyone,0 > there would be an acceptance and review cycle.  ) Yes, like a proper peer-reviewed journal.    > Q.    What would be the focussM > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combination of@ > advanced and intro level.e  C There is enough good intro-level stuff out there.  Intermediate to  5 advanced---and nothing which is in the standard docs.    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 12:19:03 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)n% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinione3 Message-ID: <GSO1dGqLBeGO@eisner.encompasserve.org>   k In article <XPXW8.651$6DW1.553@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:t > L > My Alpha doesn't fit on my seatback table at 35,000 feet, so Bookreader isN > out. Besides when I want to open the window to cool the thing off, the cabin, > attendants and pilots give me funny looks.  F    Must be some good used Tadpoles somewhere.  Or you could run MGBOOK    under Charon-VAX.  H    Really, a good PDF reader would be a better solution, but some formatF    that can be easily read on VMS is what's needed.  I feel PDF as theG    _only_ format would be a mistake.  As others have mentioned multiple ,    formats should be fairly easy to provide.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:19:30 +0100 ' From: "Tim Pass" <xbk15@dial.pipex.com> % Subject: RE: Looking for your opinionf? Message-ID: <AHEOIHOHCIGKFKMFAFLJCEGGHJAA.xbk15@dial.pipex.com>e  2 >What do think about an OpenVMS Technical Journal?   >Q.    How often?,5 At least twice a year, quarterly would be even better    >Q.    What kind of formatA HTML is nice, but printable essential, so either PS or PDF pleasen    >Q.    Who could submit articles4 VMS engineering, or others with the technical skills   >Q.    What would be the focusK Details. The bits missing from the manual. Things that you may occasionallyc/ see at a technical symposium (or wish you had!)u  ' >Any questions or comments are welcome. I Surely with the new platform coming along there is a great opportunity toaI make use of DTJ to push VMS back into the public view, where it should bem anyway.r _______________________________o Regards    Timo# Tim_Pass at control-x dot co dot ukn   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:55:40 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> % Subject: Re: Looking for your opiniony, Message-ID: <3D2C751A.616CEC20@videotron.ca>   re: format for distribution.  M I guess it depends on how the stuff is actually written. If the source of thesK journal is done in a piece of software whose "export to HTML" really sucks,hD then HTML should not be considered as primary distribution material.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:44:26 GMTn# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionaE Message-ID: <eLXW8.587$6DW1.186@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>t  5 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in messaged# news:3D2BECD6.422A0504@127.0.0.1.... > I > Have you read the OpenVMS documentation set recently, I mean read them.s >e> > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/6489/6489pro.html >yE > Personally I think chapter 1 does a good job. Similarly with systemc
 > management:r >o> > http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/6489/6489pro.html >u > and online a primer... >b- > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/training.html  >wF > I guess if the documentation set doesn't provide what is needed thenJ > feedback should be provided so that it does. I believe it is correct andE > right that *any* operating systems' documentation should be able to B > guide you through concepts and first principles (not necessarily. > technology familiarity) into using a system.    L Probably what is needed most for VMS newbies is a book entitled, "Everything; You Know Is Wrong - A Guide to OpenVMS for Unix and WindowsiJ Programmers/Users/Managers" (c) 2002, John Smith. All Rights Reserved. :-)  E FWIW, here is the complete list of books that Amazon.com returns whenaK searching on "VAX/VMS" and "OpenVMS", not that this list is a complete lists of VMS-related books.o  = When I searched on HP-UX and HP/UX, only 27 titles showed up.    VAX/VMSS ------------   1. Writing Real Programs in DCLt5 by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos, Steve Hoffman (Paperback)h Avg. Customer Rating:h Usually ships in 24 hourso  6 2. Unix for Vms Users (Digital Press Vax Users Series)/ by Philip E. Bourne (Paperback - February 1994)e Avg. Customer Rating:k" Out of Print--Limited Availability  ) 3. Rdb/Vms: Developing the Data Warehouses9 by Chuck Kelley, W. H. Inmon (Paperback - September 1993)o" Out of Print--Limited Availability  E 4. Vms for Alpha Platforms: Internals and Data Structures/Preliminaryr EditionfI by Ruth E. Goldenberg, Saro Saravanan (Contributor) (Paperback - Decemberl 1992)l Usually ships in 6 to 7 weeksh Editions: PaperbackO  % 5. Using Decwindows Motif for Openvmsn) by Margie Sherlock (Paperback - May 1993)  Avg. Customer Rating:  Usually ships in 2 to 3 days Editions: Paperback | more...a   6. Rdb: A Comprehensive Guideb1 by Lilian Hobbs, et al (Paperback - January 1995)  Limited Availability Editions: Paperback | more...t  7 7. Vax/Vms: Concepts and Facilities (Ranade Dec Series)o3 by Jay Shah, Jayesh Shah (Hardcover - January 1991)h Limited Availability  @ 8. Pascal's Triangle : Lab Manual to Accompany : VAX/VMS Version1 by Rick Decker, et al (Paperback - December 1998)n Usually ships in 12 to 13 days  = 9. A User's Guide to the Vax/Vms System (J Ranade Dec Series)-. by R. Pretty, et al (Hardcover - January 1992) Limited Availability  ' 10. Open VMS: Operating System ConceptsR" by David Donald Miller (Paperback) Avg. Customer Rating:. Usually ships in 24 hoursm   11. Spss for Vax, Vmst (Paperback - August 1990)7 Usually ships in 4 to 5 weeksa     12. Introduction to Vax/Vmsv (Paperback - May 1985)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  $ 13. Open Vms System Management Guide7 by Lawrence L. Jr. Baldwin (Paperback - September 1995)  Avg. Customer Rating:  Limited Availability   14. Mastering Vmsn- by David W. Bynon (Paperback - February 1990)n" Out of Print--Limited Availability   15. Introduction to Vax/Vms)* by Terry C. Shannon (Paperback - May 1985)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  ) 16. VAX/VMS internals and data structuresy by Lawrence J. Kenah ()o" Out of Print--Limited Availability  5 17. Vax/Vms Internals and Data Structures Version 5.2 7 by Ruth E. Goldenburg, et al (Hardcover - January 1991)n Avg. Customer Rating:i" Out of Print--Limited Availability  6 18. Vax/Vms Internals and Data Structures: Version 4.42 by Lawrence J. Kenah, et al (Paperback - May 1988)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  < 19. A beginner's guide to VAX/VMS utilities and applications by Ronald M. Sawey" Out of Print--Limited Availability  J 20. Vax/Vms: Writing Real Programs in Dcl (Digital Press Vax Users Series)5 by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos (Paperback - January 1991)  Avg. Customer Rating:n" Out of Print--Limited Availability   21. Vms File System Internals + by Kirby McCoy (Paperback - September 1990)s Avg. Customer Rating:C" Out of Print--Limited Availability   22. Vax/Vmsh2 by David Donald Miller (Hardcover - December 1991)" Out of Print--Limited Availability   23. Rdb/Vms 4 by Lilian Hobbs, Ken England (Paperback - July 1991)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  E 24. Writing Open VMS Alpha Device Drivers in C, Developer's Guide andI Reference Manual@ by Margie Sherlock, Leonard S. Szubowicz (Paperback - July 1996)  H 25.Vaxclusters: Architecture, Programming, and Management (J. Ranade Dec Series) 3 by Jay Shah, Jayesh Shah (Hardcover - October 1991)i" Out of Print--Limited Availability  K 26. Open Vms Performance Management: Tuning Techniques for Open Vms/Vax andd Open Vms/Axp+ by James W. Coburn (Paperback - March 1995)   ( 27. Tp Software Development for Open Vms* by John M. Willis (Paperback - March 1995) Avg. Customer Rating: " Out of Print--Limited Availability  & 28. Vax/Vms: Operating System Concepts1 by David Donald Miller (Hardcover - October 1991)a" Out of Print--Limited Availability  - 29. Vms Systems Management (Bcs Practitioner)e- by Lesley O. Rice (Paperback - February 1994)y" Out of Print--Limited Availability  L 30. Ai Theory and Applications in the Vax Environment (Computing That Works)0 by Michael Stock (Textbook Binding - April 1988)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  / 31. Users Guide to the Vax/Vms Operating Systeml2 by Corey Sandler (Textbook Binding - January 1989)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  ( 32. FORTRAN Tools for VAX/VMS and MS-DOS/ by Russell K. Jones, Tracy Crabtree (Paperback) " Out of Print--Limited Availability  - 33. Vax/Vms Users Introduction: Student Guide - by Lawrence J. Kenah (Paperback - March 1984)." Out of Print--Limited Availability  @ 34. The Essential Guide to Vms Utilities and Commands, Version 5) by Paula Sharick (Paperback - April 1990)e" Out of Print--Limited Availability  H 35. Open Vms Alpha Internals and Data Structures: Scheduling and Process Control: Version 7.08 by Ruth E. Goldenberg, et al (Paperback - December 1996) Avg. Customer Rating:   8 36. Network Programming under VMS DECNet Phases IV and V by Edward B. Toupin (Paperback)  Usually ships in 3 to 4 days   37. Vaxcluster Principlesu+ by Roy G. Davis (Paperback - December 1993)- Usually ships in 6 to 8 weeksb  ! 38. A Beginner's Guide to VAX-VMSr8 by Ronald Sawey, Troy Stokes (Paperback - December 1988) Limited Availability  9 39. Developing 8086/8088 Software on Vax/Vms (480788-001)  (Paperback - June 1987)P Limited Availability  G 40. Vms for Alpha Platforms Internals and Date Structures : Preliminary  Editiont1 by Ruth E. Goldenberg, Saro Saravanan (Paperback)a Usually ships in 11 to 13 days  G 41. Vms for Alpha Platforms : Internals and Data Structures/Preliminaryi Edition.@ by Ruth E. Goldenberg, Saro Saravanan (Paperback - October 1992) Usually ships in 11 to 13 days  - 42. Writing Vax/Vms Applications Using Pascalu/ by Theo De Klerk, et al (Paperback - June 1991)0 Limited Availability Editions: Paperback   , 43. WordPerfect workbook for VAX/VMS systems" Out of Print--Limited Availability   44. Vms Performance Management, by James W. Coburn (Paperback - August 1992)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  ' 45. Spss for Vax, Vms: Operations Guide  (Paperback - August 1990)t" Out of Print--Limited Availability  % 46. The Hitchhiker's Guide to Vms: An ? Unsupported-Undocumented-Can-Go-Away-At-Any-Time Feature of Vms ' by Bruce Ellis (Paperback - April 1991)i" Out of Print--Limited Availability   47. Vax Vms + by Daniel A. Sideris (Paperback - May 1990)s Limited Availability  ; 48. Using Vax/Vms (Prentice Hall Mainframe Software Series)n+ by Jan Diamondstone (Paperback - June 1988)  Avg. Customer Rating:i" Out of Print--Limited Availability  - 49. The Hitchhiker's guide to VMS performancer" Out of Print--Limited Availability  * 50. Getting Started With Spss-X on Vax-Vms- by Spss Inc. Staff (Paperback - January 1989)  Usually ships in 4 to 5 weeks<  D 51. Using Sas/Cpe Software in the Vms Environment: Release 6.07 (Sas Technical Report P-228)0 (Paperback)>" Out of Print--Limited Availability  D 52. Introductory Guide to Vms System Management (The Vnr Dec Series), by Joseph Stith (Paperback - September 1991)" Out of Print--Limited Availability Editions: Paperback0    = 53. The Vax Dcl Programmer's Reference Vms 5 (Vnr Dec Series) 2 by K. M. Leisner, et al (Paperback - January 1990)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  ) 54. Windows NT for Open VMS Professionalsn? by David A. Solomon, Debra J. Wasserman (Paperback - July 1996)-" Out of Print--Limited Availability Editions: Paperbacka  1 55. Vax Vms: Mastering Dcl Commands and Utilitiese1 by Daniel A. Sideris (Paperback - September 1993)s" Out of Print--Limited Availability   56. Vax/Vms Users Introduction (Paperback - December 1982)c" Out of Print--Limited Availability  ! 57. A Beginner's Guide to VAX-VMSs8 by Ronald Sawey, Troy Stokes (Paperback - December 1988)" Out of Print--Limited Availability   58. VAX Pascal by J. N. P. Hume ()l" Out of Print--Limited Availability   59. Vax/Vms User's Guide. by Richard H. Balay (Paperback - January 1986)" Out of Print--Limited Availability   60. Vax-Vms User's Guide/ by Richard H. Balay (Paperback - December 1987)@" Out of Print--Limited Availability   61. Vax/Vms: An Introduction& by T.W. Sze (Paperback - October 1991)" Out of Print--Limited Availability   62. A Guide to Vax/Vms' by Bordoloi (Paperback - December 1992)p" Out of Print--Limited Availability   63. Vax Assembler Programming & by C.C. Zammit (Paperback - June 1988)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  E 64. Computer Terminal Operations and Text Editing: Using Vax With Vms - by Lyle Langlodis (Paperback - November 1986)p" Out of Print--Limited Availability   65. Vax Vms Primer) by Michael Wright (Paperback - June 1992)r Avg. Customer Rating:a" Out of Print--Limited Availability  ! 66. Spss-X Data Entry for Vax-Vmsh. by Spss Inc. Staff (Paperback - December 1988)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  ) 67. Vms Advanced Device Driver TechniquesO: by Jamie E. Hanrahan, Lee Leahy (Paperback - January 1989)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  I 68. Vax/Vms Software: Language and Tools Handbook, Information Managementu9 Handbook, Vms System Software Handbook/3 Books in 1 Covera (Paperback - September 1986)" Out of Print--Limited Availability             OpenVMSl ------------  " 1. OpenVMS System Management Guide. by Lawrence Baldwin, Steve Hoffman (Paperback) Avg. Customer Rating:o Not yet publisheda  < 2. OpenVMS with Apache, Osu, and Wasd: The Nonstop Webserver by Alan Winston (Paperback)T Not yet publishede  " 3. Open Vms Performance Management+ by Joginder Sethi (Paperback - August 1995)  Usually ships in 2 to 3 days    I 4. Software Implementation Techniques, Writing Software in OpenVMS, OS/2,u UNIX and Windows NT ; by Don Merusi, Donald E. Merusi (Paperback - November 1995)e Usually ships in 2 to 3 days  L 5. COM Beyond Microsoft Designing: Designing and Implementing COM Servers on Compaq Platforms (with CD-ROM)/ by Gene Cronin, Terence P. Sherlock (Paperback)  Usually ships in 24 hoursn  % 6. Using Decwindows Motif for Openvmsa) by Margie Sherlock (Paperback - May 1993)  Avg. Customer Rating:c" Out of Print--Limited Availability   7. Unix for Openvms Usersp7 by Richard Holstein, et al (Paperback - September 1998)a Avg. Customer Rating:I Usually ships in 4 to 5 weeksy  D 8. Writing Open VMS Alpha Device Drivers in C, Developer's Guide and Reference Manual@ by Margie Sherlock, Leonard S. Szubowicz (Paperback - July 1996)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  ; 9. High Performance Cluster Configuration System Managementi- by James E. Gursha (Paperback - January 1997)e Avg. Customer Rating:i Usually ships in 2 to 3 days   10. Introduction to Open Vms> by David W. Bynon (Contributor), et al (Paperback - June 1997)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  . 11. Open VMS: Architecture, Use, and Migration by Raj Bhargava (Hardcover)r" Out of Print--Limited Availability  F 12. The Operating Systems Handbook: Unix, Openvms, Os/400, Vm, and MVS) by Bob Ducharme (Hardcover - August 1994)  Avg. Customer Rating:r" Out of Print--Limited Availability  ( 13. Spss Base System Users Guide Openvms by Spss (Author) (Paperback)" Out of Print--Limited Availability  I 14. Linux and OpenVMS Interoperability, Tricks for Old Dogs, New Dogs and  Hot Dogs with Open Systems% by John Robert Wisniewski (Paperback)a Usually ships in 4 to 8 days  K 15. Practical Uses of OpenVMS System Services: Emulating DCL in FORTRAN and 
 C Programs7 by Mike Taylor, Retha Taylor (Spiral-bound - July 1998)a Limited Availability  ; 16. Open Vms Axp Internals and Data Structures: Version 1.5 K by Ruth E. Goldenberg, Saro Saravanan (Contributor) (Hardcover - June 1994)  Limited Availability  - 17. Writing Openvms Alpha Device Drivers in C 4 by Margie Sherlock, Leonard S. Szubowicz (Paperback) Usually ships in 12 to 13 days  J 18. SAS (R) Technical Report P-265, SAS/SHARE (R) Software for the OpenVMS# Environment, Releases 6.08 and 6.09  (Paperback)a" Out of Print--Limited Availability  L 19. SAS (R) Companion for the OpenVMS Environment, Version 6, Second Edition (Paperback)y" Out of Print--Limited Availability  L 20. Sas Technical Report: Changes and Enhancements to the Sas System for the' Openvms Alpha Environment, Release 6.12a (Paperback)d" Out of Print--Limited Availability        . An finally, some comments from Kevin Barkes at! http://www.kgb.com/dcl/199512.txti  ; "This is the last DCL Dialogue column. I've had a marvelousa; run, since August of 1986, and the experience has been veryr7 rewarding and extremely satisfying. But due to personal < reasons, I have to pack it in. My sincere thanks to Cardinal; Business Media and especially its predecessor, Professional>: Press, for giving me space every month and the opportunity# to speak my mind without restraint.0  1 But before I go, here are a few last comments andt
 observations:o  8 -The computer industry has been unduly influenced by the9 trade press, and vice versa. One brain-dead article by ans; intern working for ComputerWorld or InfoWorld can be picked 8 up by the Wall Street Journal, given undue credence, and: wreak havoc for months. Take what you read with a grain of6 salt. As Erwin Knoll said, "Everything you read in the< newspapers is absolutely true, except for that rare story of/ which you happen to have first-hand knowledge."-  < -Don't throw away your VAX system just because everyone else< is platform jumping. Take a realistic look at your costs and: if someone presents you with figures for migrating, triple6 the migration cost and knock maybe 10 percent off your present maintenance figures.   ...t  ; -Speaking of documentation, always get paper. Online doc isW9 okay, but when you've accidentally screwed up some arcanes; sysgen parameter and you can't get the system to boot, thats0 shiny CD-ROM ain't nothing more than a frisbee."   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:07:37 -0400m- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion!, Message-ID: <3D2C77E6.A6569D16@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote: @ > It's just a year or two since there was a short run of VMS adsH > (featuring Norther Light) in the UK trade press (first for many years)B > which, I am told, produced noticeable results. Don't know why we@ > haven't seen any new ones given that I was told there would be  N The renaissance is over. They managed to turn VMS from negative growth to nearL doble digit growth, and that was enough forthe Compaq folks who then stopped the renaissance.  M Ironically, had they timed the renaissance to straddle the murder of Alpha, IIH think that attitudes would have been much more positive since thought ofM Compaq abandonning VMS would not have been so rampant. But the fact that theyuL killed the renaissance and then not that long after, killed Alpha, well that( was a double blow that was hard to take.  F I realise that the renaissance happened partly as a result of MarcelloN convincing Compaq not to kill VMS and that its timing was probably due to that' instead of the planned murder of Alpha.A  L If anyone manages to get Marcello drunk, it would be interesting to know if,M at the time Compaq tried to kill VMS, Marcello was already aware that Alpha'srM fate was already sealed. I think it would have been 2 or 3 years ago already.e   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 06:22:45 +0000 (UTC).7 From: dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net (Douglas Siebert)v Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... + Message-ID: <aggjrk$5sl$1@sword.avalon.net>o  W Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes:r  A >Its rather extraordinary that HP/Intel have set out to create anbC >industry standard CPU and a commodity 64 bit platform and straightcA >away have tilted the playing field so that in fact the platformsb >are not commodities.f  > >How long will it be before HP starts to market the benefit of> >buying boxes that run apps compiled with their compiler based7 >on the performance advantage provided by the compiler.     E Well....never?  This was HP's stated strategy for their alliance withr@ Intel on IA64 all along.  HP reaps the benefits of commodity CPUF pricing, doesn't have to do development of said CPUs (at least I thinkF they are out of that biz now that McKinley is out and the next few are
 only shrinks)   F I'm just surprised they managed to do it so well -- they've never beenE regarded to be particularly strong in compiler technology compared tos/ say Compaq.  Oh yeah, they bought those guys...k   --H Douglas Siebert                          dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net  J A good friend will help you move, a true friend will help you move a body.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:36:46 -0700r+ From: "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc@primenet.com>e Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... 3 Message-ID: <1026286455.948602@nnrp1.phx1.gblx.net>k  . "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote ...) > "Alberto" <albertobu@libero.it> writes:d- > |> "Bernd Paysan" <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> ...e > |> > |> > Also, it's a SOI chip,iL > |> > which reduces gate delay by about 30% - and since other things didn't6 > |> > change much, you can expect a 30% higher clock. > |>8 > |> I don't expect over a 10-15% higher clock with Soi. >eC > Well, considering AMD get 1733 MHz with a 0.18 process, don't youJE > think that 2500 MHz with a 0.13 SOI process is fairly conservative?   ; No. AMD's "0.18 process" is said to have already been usingi9 130nm transistor gate dimensions, Nick. So no gain there.a8 And the reduced wire runs don't necessarily buy you much? because your wire-to-wire spacing has decreased proportionally,r> as well as your wire width. But the die gets smaller, and that4 is always good for cost (but bad for power density).  5 A semiconductor fab process isn't fully characterized1- by a gate dimension, metal type, and K, Nick.7! It's complicated beyond your ken.  --7 Dennis O'Connor                       dmoc@primenet.comf4 "We don't become a rabid dog to destroy a rabid dog"   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:41:12 +0100v& From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...d* Message-ID: <3D2BE518.94358A5A@kgcc.co.uk>   Greg Cagle wrote:i   > Douglas Siebert wrote: >  > <snip> >TK > > I don't think compilation is the problem people make it out to be.  AMD E > > will be hindered slightly by the fact they'll get their best SPECuJ > > results in IA-32 mode using Intel's compiler (which they currently useH > > for Athlon)  But given the immaturity of IA64 support in GCC, HammerM > > will clean McKinley's (and its successors') clock on Linux.  Hammer losesnJ > > performance using GCC, but not nearly as much as McKinley loses.  EvenH > > a .09u McKinley with 6MB cache probably has no chance against a .13uD > > Hammer where GCC is concerned.  So goodbye Linux market on IA64. >-M > But gcc isn't the only Linux compiler for IA-64. Intel has a gcc-compatiblesD > compiler. Granted it's not producing the same results as the HP-UX, > compilers, but it's still better than gcc. >e  H IIRC the SPEC FP number on HP's website is the Intel compiler running on/ Denbian Linux, the SPEC Int number is on HP-UX.f   >t > <snip> >i > -- > Greg Cagle > gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:55:51 +0100m& From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...i* Message-ID: <3D2BE887.F2DFEBBF@kgcc.co.uk>   Nick Maclaren wrote:  . > In article <3D2B57F1.1FA2061F@videotron.ca>,1 > JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:y > >Sander Vesik wrote:V > >> Well, in this scenario, ia64 does collapse - it would be more effective for hp to[ > >> continue using hp-pa and mips for hp-ux/nsk and to just migrate everybody still aroundm) > >> to hp-pa / hp-ux from alpha instead.  > >aO > >No. By the time Intel admits that IA64 won't become industry standard and iswQ > >relegated to HP's proprietary chip, HP will have already migrated all its eggsoO > >onto IA64 and at that point, it makes more sense to continue to develop IA64 A > >than to go to whatever other architecture exists at that time.f >iC > Back in 1994, the reason that HP got into bed with Intel was thatnA > HP did not have the resources to develop and market PA-RISC 3.0- > (later IA-64) on its own.i  T Hey, maybe it was all just a clever wheeze to get Intel to pay to develope it in the first place :-)g  Q Then let it die as a comodity and let HP have it back as propritory chip, at thatON point all the cost constrains are out of the window and they can afford to putG nice big caches back on the thing, PA8800 has a 32MB L2 cache, McKinleyR has to make do with a 3MB L3.   & > Nothing has changed in that respect.A > If IA-64 folds within the next year, HP should still be able toc? > back off to PA-RISC.  The nightmare scenario is Intel canninga# > IA-64 18-24 months down the line.V >U
 > Regards, > Nick Maclaren,, > University of Cambridge Computing Service,@ > New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. > Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk1 > Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679    Cheers   Ken    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2002 08:03:59 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...a0 Message-ID: <aggppf$8fk$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  ; In article <7ZLW8.8$iX5.16306@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,s) Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:n= >"Andrew Reilly" <andrew@gurney.reilly.home> wrote in message < >news:P8LW8.419482$o66.1136863@news-server.bigpond.net.au... >> >G >> > I said better than the McKinley.  My current guess is a SpecInt ofaL >> > 800-900 in x86-64 mode and 700-800 in IA-32 mode in 1Q03. But time will
 >> > tell. >>G >> Are those figures (700-800 specint in IA-32 mode) achievable with anoJ >> in-order IA-32 translator, or are you suspecting that the IA-32 wart isA >> an all-singing out-of-order implementation, even given an EPICk >> substructure? >aM >I think you misunderstood:  the numbers Nick was suggesting (which I suspectyI >should be increased by at least 40%) were for x86-64 (i.e., Hammer), notoL >IA64.  I *am* quite curious to see whether Merced's IA32 performance (whichK >was far worse even than its poor IA64 performance) got boosted by anythingaK >like the order of magnitude it would take to make running IA32 binaries onx# >McKinley a reasonable proposition.-  E Yes, precisely.  I was quoting what I regard as conservative figures,sD that I am pretty sure that AMD will be able to deliver, reliably andC probably on time (well, almost).  I should not be surprised if theytA were 20% higher in the actuality, but should be if they were 40%.b- Not flabberghasted, but definitely surprised.s  B If they are 40% higher, and the Hammer remains on schedule, and itD works reliably in high-RAS contexts, then the Madison launch will be3 a damn squib at best.  But that is quite a few ifs.      Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2002 08:08:40 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... 0 Message-ID: <aggq28$8q4$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  * In article <3D2BE887.F2DFEBBF@kgcc.co.uk>,( Ken Green  <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> wrote: >Nick Maclaren wrote:a >cD >> Back in 1994, the reason that HP got into bed with Intel was thatB >> HP did not have the resources to develop and market PA-RISC 3.0 >> (later IA-64) on its own. >fU >Hey, maybe it was all just a clever wheeze to get Intel to pay to develope it in thei >first place :-) >iR >Then let it die as a comodity and let HP have it back as propritory chip, at thatO >point all the cost constrains are out of the window and they can afford to putyH >nice big caches back on the thing, PA8800 has a 32MB L2 cache, McKinley >has to make do with a 3MB L3.  A As I said, nothing has changed in that respect.  HP cannot affordb= it, because the IA-64 architecture is a very high-cost one to B develop and develop for.  Not just the hardware, but the software.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679e   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2002 08:15:45 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...x0 Message-ID: <aggqfh$903$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  . In article <ugy9cktx2f.fsf@panda.mostang.com>,6 David Mosberger-Tang  <David.Mosberger@acm.org> wrote:g >>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:17:22 +0000 (UTC), dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net (Douglas Siebert) said:  > D >  Douglas> IA64's problem is that its performance advantage is mostE >  Douglas> significant for FP (which far fewer server customers carenF >  Douglas> about than int) and it won't be very competitive on Linux. > A >That would be news to me.  Note that the highest reported SPECfpeD >number is precisely for Linux (which is a first in and of itself, I  D Is it just?  You mean the 1365?  That is MOST interesting, if I have understood you.f  F >believe).  Also, PNL seems to be quite happy with Linux on Itanium 2: >bT > http://www.emsl.pnl.gov:2080/capabs/mscf/?/capabs/mscf/hardware/results_hpcs2.html  @ Hmm.  The abstract refers to getting 96% of peak on a key kernel@ (a matrix multiply).  Sorry, but that is NOT relevant.  Firstly,A matrix multiply is trivial to optimise.  Secondly, if competentlyoA coded, it will be dominated by calls to hand-coded DGEMM or ZGEMMdD anyway.  I don't have time to look at the paper now, but will later.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679d   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:34:22 GMTe. From: "Aaron Spink" <aaronspink@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...dA Message-ID: <ikSW8.3172$Kx3.453@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>n  D "Douglas Siebert" <dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net> wrote in message% news:aggjrk$5sl$1@sword.avalon.net...aH > I'm just surprised they managed to do it so well -- they've never beenG > regarded to be particularly strong in compiler technology compared toH1 > say Compaq.  Oh yeah, they bought those guys...C >o Just a clarification...p  J The compiler group was part of the Intel deal, prior to the HP deal.  RichH Grove who was a member of the DEC/Compaq Alpha compiler group and also a% Compaq fellow is now an intel fellow:i  3 http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/bios/rgrove.htmg  H So what used to be the Alpha compiler development group is now at Intel.   aaron spinka speaking for myself inc.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:34:34 GMTr* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...pA Message-ID: <ukSW8.118246$vq.5971996@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>r  3 "Ken Green" <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> wrote in messaget$ news:3D2BE887.F2DFEBBF@kgcc.co.uk...   ...V  K > Then let it die as a comodity and let HP have it back as propritory chip,  at thatiL > point all the cost constrains are out of the window and they can afford to putoI > nice big caches back on the thing, PA8800 has a 32MB L2 cache, McKinley  > has to make do with a 3MB L3.D  D I rather doubt that PA8800's 32 MB L2 cache is on-chip, however (theL McKinley die is pretty large already, and about half of it is the 3 MB of L3G cache) - so presumably HP could add just as much L4 cache to a McKinleyr system should they care to.-  K The better question is exactly why HP would believe that EPIC (if it indeedtH did revert to being an HP-proprietary product) would be a useful step upJ from PA-RISC which, despite relative neglect of late, has just released anL 875 MHz part that should get about 700 SPECint2K performance if the increaseI is close to linear and next year around Madison time will get a shrink to H 130 nm (keeping up with Madison in that regard) *plus* dual cores on theK chip (yielding close to double the server performance per die).  There's nopI evidence that EPIC has left a great deal of performance on the table justiF waiting to be realized in future iterations (though the Alpha guys canK probably find some if anyone can, or throw it in the trash and start over),aI so whatever degree of effort it would take to keep improving Itanic could : likely be equally effective in improving good old PA-RISC.  I Oh, wait:  that *was* the conclusion they reportedly came to a while ago,s/ but couldn't make fly at the corporate level...a   - bill   ------------------------------  & Date: 10 Jul 2002 09:46:32 +0100 (BST)4 From: Thomas Womack <twomack@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...a3 Message-ID: <ath*A0Vsp@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>p  0 In article <aggqfh$903$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,) Nick Maclaren <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote: / >In article <ugy9cktx2f.fsf@panda.mostang.com>,s7 >David Mosberger-Tang  <David.Mosberger@acm.org> wrote:sh >>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:17:22 +0000 (UTC), dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net (Douglas Siebert) said: >>E >>  Douglas> IA64's problem is that its performance advantage is mosteF >>  Douglas> significant for FP (which far fewer server customers careG >>  Douglas> about than int) and it won't be very competitive on Linux.  >>B >>That would be news to me.  Note that the highest reported SPECfpE >>number is precisely for Linux (which is a first in and of itself, I  >eE >Is it just?  You mean the 1365?  That is MOST interesting, if I haver >understood you. >hG >>believe).  Also, PNL seems to be quite happy with Linux on Itanium 2:  >>U >> http://www.emsl.pnl.gov:2080/capabs/mscf/?/capabs/mscf/hardware/results_hpcs2.html   B > Hmm.  The abstract refers to getting 96% of peak on a key kernelB > (a matrix multiply).  Sorry, but that is NOT relevant.  Firstly,C > matrix multiply is trivial to optimise.  Secondly, if competently,C > coded, it will be dominated by calls to hand-coded DGEMM or ZGEMMoF > anyway.  I don't have time to look at the paper now, but will later.  @ The paper is six Powerpoint slides, full of vapour (apart from a: slightly scathing comparison of McKinley and Power4 memoryD bandwidths), and pretty much content-free. Their claim is that DGEMME -- presumably Intel's hand-coded DGEMM -- manages 96% of peak, whilstyA Cray's hand-coded DGEMM on T3Es gets 83% and IBM's 65% or so. 128s8 registers and 2 FP ops per cycle clearly buys you a lot.  > It looks as if the results are on a prototype made with 900MHzA processors, there are also extrapolations to 1GHz; I was slightlyrC surprised that Intel's known-superb process engineers are having sowF much trouble with this CPU, until realising that they're managing fourB times the speed nVidia arranged for a comparably complex chip in a smaller process.  ? I imagine Intel's Russians are better than IBM's Russians :) --oD Intel's low-level-optimisation group seems, from reading bits of the2 MKL documentation, to be based in Nizhny-Novgorod.  B For the whole-chemistry benchmark, the McKinley system is slightlyB slower per-CPU than a Power4, but doesn't hit the hard limit at 326 processors; the machine tested appears to be using 48.  F I presume a McKinley will join the HP testdrive farm shortly, and then I'll get to play with it :)o   Tome   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:43:18 +0100 & From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh....* Message-ID: <3D2C01B6.FD9AA4F0@kgcc.co.uk>   Bill Todd wrote:  5 > "Ken Green" <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> wrote in message & > news:3D2BE887.F2DFEBBF@kgcc.co.uk... >e > ...i >uM > > Then let it die as a comodity and let HP have it back as propritory chip,a	 > at thatdN > > point all the cost constrains are out of the window and they can afford to > put K > > nice big caches back on the thing, PA8800 has a 32MB L2 cache, McKinleyl! > > has to make do with a 3MB L3.m >eF > I rather doubt that PA8800's 32 MB L2 cache is on-chip, however (theN > McKinley die is pretty large already, and about half of it is the 3 MB of L3I > cache) - so presumably HP could add just as much L4 cache to a McKinley6 > system should they care to.f >   J Your right Bill, the L2 is in the same package, but not on the same, chip,E altough the tags are on the CPU chip, along with 2 cores, and the twoe; L1 caches (the data caches are half the size of the PA8700)   K I would have thought that cost was a major factor in deciding not to followoH a similar approach in the McKinley, I guess HP can still afford more forD CPUs in their mid to upper range systems than Intel expects the IA64G market place to want to pay. I might be wrong, maybe we'll see Makos inh= the the rp24XX boxes which start with a list price of <$1000.    >1M > The better question is exactly why HP would believe that EPIC (if it indeedcJ > did revert to being an HP-proprietary product) would be a useful step upL > from PA-RISC which, despite relative neglect of late, has just released anN > 875 MHz part that should get about 700 SPECint2K performance if the increaseK > is close to linear and next year around Madison time will get a shrink todJ > 130 nm (keeping up with Madison in that regard) *plus* dual cores on theM > chip (yielding close to double the server performance per die).  There's noeK > evidence that EPIC has left a great deal of performance on the table justtH > waiting to be realized in future iterations (though the Alpha guys canM > probably find some if anyone can, or throw it in the trash and start over),oK > so whatever degree of effort it would take to keep improving Itanic could < > likely be equally effective in improving good old PA-RISC.  K EPIC is PA3, it was designed as the replacement for PA-Risc, sure the worldsK has moved on a long way since 1990 when they started, but the PA8700 is notcO significantly different in terms of what it does from the PA8000. It's not liket withI Alpha where over the same time frame things like OOO have been added, PA2p had them already.o   >e >eK > Oh, wait:  that *was* the conclusion they reportedly came to a while ago,e1 > but couldn't make fly at the corporate level...  >n  J Well the management have well a truely nailed their flag to the IA64 mast.E Carley has already said that the whole farm has been bet on IA64, she 3 even went as far as buying Compaq to help prove it.p  I Technical people are easier to convince, generally if you can show enoughfH evidence you can win arguements, they don't like being proved wrong, but they can be.  / Most corperate levels... won't be proved wrong.e   >t > - bill   Cheers   KenC   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 08:37:43 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young), Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...e3 Message-ID: <4L$FtJx50ygO@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  S In article <3D2BE887.F2DFEBBF@kgcc.co.uk>, Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes:x   > S > Then let it die as a comodity and let HP have it back as propritory chip, at thatmP > point all the cost constrains are out of the window and they can afford to putI > nice big caches back on the thing, PA8800 has a 32MB L2 cache, McKinleyn > has to make do with a 3MB L3.e >   B 	You make it sound as if a smaller on-chip cache is somewhat of a B 	handicap.  Hint: name a benchmark *PA8700* beats Itanium II at.  D 	Second challenge, which benchmark (will there be one?) will PA8800 # 	lead Madison (aka Itanium III) at?   B 	HP isn't moving to slower performance... a few may believe it but= 	the numbers just aren't there (if they are, please show us).1   				Rob.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2002 13:57:01 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... 0 Message-ID: <aghefd$qvg$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  a In article <4L$FtJx50ygO@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:aV |> In article <3D2BE887.F2DFEBBF@kgcc.co.uk>, Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes: |> dV |> > Then let it die as a comodity and let HP have it back as propritory chip, at thatS |> > point all the cost constrains are out of the window and they can afford to put L |> > nice big caches back on the thing, PA8800 has a 32MB L2 cache, McKinley" |> > has to make do with a 3MB L3. |> iE |> 	You make it sound as if a smaller on-chip cache is somewhat of a eE |> 	handicap.  Hint: name a benchmark *PA8700* beats Itanium II at.  uG |> 	Second challenge, which benchmark (will there be one?) will PA8800  & |> 	lead Madison (aka Itanium III) at? |>  E |> 	HP isn't moving to slower performance... a few may believe it buta@ |> 	the numbers just aren't there (if they are, please show us).  = One area where I suspect that this may be so are applications = which use a lot of floating-point division or where the IA-64p( needs an interrupt and PA-RISC does not.  = But a more serious and more interesting reservation is in MPIm> and OpenMP support.  Time will tell how IA-64 behaves in that.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:57:39 +0100e& From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...j* Message-ID: <3D2C4B63.2B4E7270@kgcc.co.uk>   Rob Young wrote:  U > In article <3D2BE887.F2DFEBBF@kgcc.co.uk>, Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes:  >l > >@U > > Then let it die as a comodity and let HP have it back as propritory chip, at that R > > point all the cost constrains are out of the window and they can afford to putK > > nice big caches back on the thing, PA8800 has a 32MB L2 cache, McKinley-! > > has to make do with a 3MB L3.n > >. >tJ >         You make it sound as if a smaller on-chip cache is somewhat of aI >         handicap.  Hint: name a benchmark *PA8700* beats Itanium II at.nL >         Second challenge, which benchmark (will there be one?) will PA8800, >         lead Madison (aka Itanium III) at? >u  F A smaller on-chip cache is a handicap. If they could make a Itanium II7 with bigger cache it would almost certainly go quicker.m  O I'm not saying that a PA8700 is faster than a I2, although I bet I could easilywK write something where that would be the case, say just find some thing thath5 fits in the 1.5MB L1 cache, but not in the I2s cache.e  1 PA8800 won't lead I3... it won't be allowed to...oG (I guess the pay masters won't let the new alpha beat Itanium either:-)e. But I doubt it could even if given permission.  G All I was saying is that I think there are things that a big system CPUdH is likely to be able to afford that even a comodity server chip probably can't.   >eK >         HP isn't moving to slower performance... a few may believe it buthF >         the numbers just aren't there (if they are, please show us).  D I don't think HP is moving to a slower chip. I've never thought thatB I have to reason to doubt the people who told be back in ~94 "just3 wait for the second version" I2 is quicker than PA,e> for the benchmarks they quoted it's quicker than any Risc CPU,= for SPECint_base2000 P4 can beat it, for SPECfp_base2000 it's-@ in the clear. They haven't published the results on the SPEC web1 site yet, so the the other results we don't know.n  ; For application benchmarks the results look good, the TPC C>< figures show I2 having a clear advantage over the latest P4s and Alphas.c   >  >t% >                                 Rob    Cheers   Keno   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 10:07:13 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)( Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...y3 Message-ID: <kd3qS+TP2ZRN@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  S In article <3D2C4B63.2B4E7270@kgcc.co.uk>, Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes:l > Rob Young wrote: > V >> In article <3D2BE887.F2DFEBBF@kgcc.co.uk>, Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes: >> >> >V >> > Then let it die as a comodity and let HP have it back as propritory chip, at thatS >> > point all the cost constrains are out of the window and they can afford to puttL >> > nice big caches back on the thing, PA8800 has a 32MB L2 cache, McKinley" >> > has to make do with a 3MB L3. >> > >>K >>         You make it sound as if a smaller on-chip cache is somewhat of atJ >>         handicap.  Hint: name a benchmark *PA8700* beats Itanium II at.M >>         Second challenge, which benchmark (will there be one?) will PA8800-- >>         lead Madison (aka Itanium III) at?0 >> > ) > A smaller on-chip cache is a handicap. a  B 	Most cases it isn't.  Run through SPEC and see how on-chip caches? 	compare.  Run through TPC-C and do likewise.  Now certainly ifm8 	you have a run size that fits in off-chip L2 that blowsB 	out an on-chip L2/L3,  you *may* have a good case, but not always* 	(and yes, that can be proven by example).   If they could make a Itanium IIi9 > with bigger cache it would almost certainly go quicker.o >     	Yeah, Madison it is code-named.  Q > I'm not saying that a PA8700 is faster than a I2, although I bet I could easilyaM > write something where that would be the case, say just find some thing thati7 > fits in the 1.5MB L1 cache, but not in the I2s cache.s >   B 	Exactly.  You can cook a benchmark to make an UltraSparc III look6 	fast too, i.e. art.  Hats off to their compiler team.  3 > PA8800 won't lead I3... it won't be allowed to....  - 	We descend to conspiracy theories, Good Bye.t   				Robl   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:15:56 +0100t& From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...l* Message-ID: <3D2C4FAC.FAAD2931@kgcc.co.uk>   Rob Young wrote:  U > In article <3D2C4B63.2B4E7270@kgcc.co.uk>, Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes:o > >  > K >         Exactly.  You can cook a benchmark to make an UltraSparc III looki? >         fast too, i.e. art.  Hats off to their compiler team.d  M At least they didn't write the benchmark. If you can design the benchmark too R then you can prove any system is faster than any other.... my slide rule is faster- than your Cray, coz it boots faster... etc...e  N But definitelt hats off to the compiler guys. Since the benchmark result stillE stands I assume none of the competitor have shown the optomisation tonK be art specific. Also no one else seems to have managed to pull of the samer
 trick yet.   >e >o5 > > PA8800 won't lead I3... it won't be allowed to...p >i6 >         We descend to conspiracy theories, Good Bye. >o% >                                 Rob.   :-)    Cheers   Keni   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:30:39 +0000 (UTC)i/ From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>a Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...q3 Message-ID: <1026315040.446684@haldjas.folklore.ee>c  1 In comp.arch Alberto <albertobu@libero.it> wrote: f > "Bernd Paysan" <bernd.paysan@gmx.de> ha scritto nel messaggio news:p12fga.9uo.ln@miriam.mikron.de... >> Nick Maclaren wrote:-A >> > Very likely.  Hence my remark.  By the time that the MadisontG >> > reaches 1.8 GHz, it is likely that the Opteron will be at 2.5 GHz,1D >> > perhaps 3.0 GHz.  If AMD introduce a large cache version at theB >> > latter speed, Opteron, too, could reach 1200 SpecInt.  Maybe. >>L >> I thought the current Athlons (at 1.8GHz, end 0.18u/initial 0.13u) shouldM >> already be in the ~700 SpecInt range. The Hammer has several improvements,h5 >> which should give about 25% per-clock improvement.h >  > In all application? :-).  K In most processor intensive applications. It needs to, as it is supposed to H be the next gen AMD processor for both 32 and 64 bits. Also, most of the2 enhancements pply equally to 32bit and 64bit code.   -- m 	Sandero   +++ Out of cheese error +++o   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:33:37 +0000 (UTC)H/ From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>e Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...d3 Message-ID: <1026315218.550075@haldjas.folklore.ee>e  ; In comp.arch JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:a > Sander Vesik wrote:tT >> Well, in this scenario, ia64 does collapse - it would be more effective for hp toY >> continue using hp-pa and mips for hp-ux/nsk and to just migrate everybody still arounda' >> to hp-pa / hp-ux from alpha instead.o > N > No. By the time Intel admits that IA64 won't become industry standard and isP > relegated to HP's proprietary chip, HP will have already migrated all its eggsN > onto IA64 and at that point, it makes more sense to continue to develop IA64@ > than to go to whatever other architecture exists at that time.  Q But HP does not need to wait for intel to decide that ia64 won't make an industryoP standard - it can reach that conclusion on its own and act accordingly. At least in theory it should be able to.    -- c 	Sanderl   +++ Out of cheese error +++-   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:35:48 +0000 (UTC)c/ From: Sander Vesik <sander@haldjas.folklore.ee>M Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...a3 Message-ID: <1026315349.533044@haldjas.folklore.ee><  = In comp.arch Andrew Reilly <andrew@gurney.reilly.home> wrote:.: > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:41:44 +1000, Nick Maclaren wrote: > F > Are those figures (700-800 specint in IA-32 mode) achievable with anI > in-order IA-32 translator, or are you suspecting that the IA-32 wart isa@ > an all-singing out-of-order implementation, even given an EPICH > substructure?  How would those IA-32 figures compare to those for SPEC1 > binaries compiled for PIII or P4, do you think?n  ? I think he is talking about Opteron at that point, not IA64 8-)    >  > -- > Andrew   -- g 	Sanderr   +++ Out of cheese error +++l   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:29:55 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...>@ Message-ID: <na_W8.11494$iB1.709681@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:4L$FtJx50ygO@eisner.encompasserve.org... 6 > In article <3D2BE887.F2DFEBBF@kgcc.co.uk>, Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes: >b > >aG > > Then let it die as a comodity and let HP have it back as propritoryS
 chip, at thatpK > > point all the cost constrains are out of the window and they can affordo to putK > > nice big caches back on the thing, PA8800 has a 32MB L2 cache, McKinley ! > > has to make do with a 3MB L3.a > >( >rB > You make it sound as if a smaller on-chip cache is somewhat of aA > handicap.  Hint: name a benchmark *PA8700* beats Itanium II at.ED > Second challenge, which benchmark (will there be one?) will PA8800$ > lead Madison (aka Itanium III) at?  J That's easy:  since the 8700 just got a clock-rate boost that should bringL its SPECint performance to about 700 (i.e., close enough to McKinley's to beI considered competitive), and the 8800 will benefit from the same order ofpL shrink that Madison will, any SPECint-style benchmark that makes use of both4 cores on the 8800 should blow the doors off Madison.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:48:36 -0400c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... , Message-ID: <3D2C7373.2E83A221@videotron.ca>   Nick Maclaren wrote:C > As I said, nothing has changed in that respect.  HP cannot afford ? > it, because the IA-64 architecture is a very high-cost one to D > develop and develop for.  Not just the hardware, but the software.  H But IA64 has been developped. It is almost a real chip by now. 	*IF* theL architecture was properly done, then incremental improvements shouldn't costJ that much.  Also, if half the chip resides in the compilers, then HP stillN ends up paying a big part of the chip through its own proprietary compiler(s).  J In the end, a HP proprietary IA64 will be no different from Sun's SPARC or IBM's Power.  M Seems to me that, performance being equal, the 64 bit chip that will win willt- be the one that can capture a greater volume.s  K Consider the theoretical possibility of Apple, now having fresh source codeeN for its OS, would revamp it to run 64 bits on the current Power_x chips.  ThatL would surely beat IA64's volumes as long as IA64 is considered a high-margin product restricted to servers.    N Oh, by the way, want to see some competition for Compaq's slow pentium 3 blade	 servers ?o http://www.apple.com/xserve/   Just a glimpse:HK With dual 1GHz PowerPC G4s, up to 2GB DDR SDRAM, two 64-bit 66MHz PCI slotsoM (plus a third combination PCI/AGP slot), dual Gigabit Ethernet, FireWire, USBcH and four Ultra ATA/100 Apple Drive Module bays, Apples best-in-class 1UL configuration compares favorably not just with 1U competitors, but even with many 2U servers.  > Check out the specs at: http://www.apple.com/xserve/specs.htmlM and you'll see where VMS is really lagging behind when you look at what comesuF out of the box with VMS versus the Apple server offering. (in terms of) software and support for networking etc).s   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:13:06 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> 4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts8 Message-ID: <92rnius9re9kgjng3fandcfo9nlk0ne4g7@4ax.com>  E On 9 Jul 2002 20:11:58 GMT, nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:a  G >In article <FeHW8.3647$UHe1.681@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,h# >John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote:n >>E >>IMHO, HP will show some 'non-published' numbers to those *existing*tD >>customers who are likely candidates to need more Alpha horsepower. >>N >>Since HP does *NOT* sell to *new* non-VMS customers any longer (a paraphraseM >>of their words), why should they go to the effort of pointing out that theydH >>bought a superior (albeit, dead) technology that obviates the need forI >>Itanic. Mustn't forget that they've "burned their bridges behind them".e > C >Is that so, indeed?  That could explain a great deal.  Do you havea >a reference to those words?   Here it is:    Message 1 in thread % From: Alan Greig (a.greig@virgin.net)s2 Subject: We've burned our boats say Compaq and HP 6 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms, comp.sys.dec, comp.unix.tru64 View this article only t Date: 2001-10-11 03:38:14 PST   l    @ The Inquirer has a report of Carly and Curly's 'Houston love-in'7 conference for staff. Here's a few selected quotes fromt' http://www.theinquirer.net/10100114.htmd   Carly:E "There is no backup plan. We've burned the boats, we've landed in the D brave new world, and we are going to go forward. And I, for one, whoC have developed a core competence in ignoring bad press can tell youAA that, put all the headlines aside, put the short-term stock priceeF reaction aside, and as Michael said to me at the end of the first day,B you know what, we're just going to go prove them wrong, and that'sB exactly right. And that to me is the most fun of all, setting yourE sights high, having everyone in the world underestimate you, and then- blowing their socks off.":  9 Wonder just when Carly first blew Curly's r^hsocks off :)c   ---M         >e	 >Regards,s >Nick Maclaren,0+ >University of Cambridge Computing Service,<? >New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.r >Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uki0 >Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:21:58 +0100c% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>k4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts8 Message-ID: <a8rniuo2q28ieipb6ga2661oj5cdm762rf@4ax.com>  , On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:28:53 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:A  L >On the other hand, once VMS run on Intel, *IF* Intel subsidizes advertisingO >the same way it does for wintel crap (put the awful Intel logo and tune and welM >pay 75% of your ads), then it will be most interesting to see how HP decidedf- >to market its non-core products such as VMS.-  C It may be telling that the current Intel "Itanium-2" ads running in1D the UK trade press list the "enterprise solutions" operating systems being ported as:   Windows Advanced Server  Windows Datacenter Servere Windows Enterprise Servero Calderao HP-UXv Miracle (what's that?) Redhat SuSE
 TurboLinux  D No mention of VMS (or NSK for that matter). Given that Intel want toC show as much support for the chip as possible it seems strange theyo don't list either.  M >Right now, if HP markets a wintel box, I'd say that the vast majority of the O >costs are bourne by Intel and Microsoft. After all, they are the ones who make>0 >a profit from the sale of a wintel box, not HP. >iN >Marketing VMS right now means you go against 2 partners: microsoft and intel.H >Once VMS is on intel, it leaves only microsoft as the one you make made+ >because you advertise a competing product.0   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:50:04 +0100a% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>h4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts8 Message-ID: <n5tniu0mdpjuskdlrfe04vna7vjg2g27g1@4ax.com>  D On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:00:34 -0400, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote:  C >of Windows.NET* Datacenter and Enterprise Server for the Itanium 2nI >processor, and HP is porting its OpenVMS* and Non Stop Kernel* operatingAB >systems to the Itanium processor family for future introduction."  E That's a good sign but I still  wonder why VMS and NSK are not listedCC in the UK trade press ads paralleling this press release. Of coursea> the ads would have been placed weeks ago so maybe someone took3 positive action to correct the later press release.n   >nD >So, while it still has a ways to go to prove itself, as others have? >stated here - the IPF-2 is off to a much better start than its7
 >predecessor.c >k >Regards >< >Kerry Mainc >Senior Consultant >Hewlett-Packard Canadai" >Consulting & Integration Services >Voice: 613-592-4660 >Fax   : 613-591-4477l >Email: Kerry.Main@hp.comu >f >e >-----Original Message-----o6 >From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca]  >Sent: July 9, 2002 3:40 PM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com5 >Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsl >  >c >Nick Maclaren wrote:fH >> Then I suggest that you quote performance figures based on them, and E >> do not flame me when I point out that the figures quoted by HP on w8 >> Monday are not what most McKinley customers will get. > G >Since IA64 is currently still poised to be mostly HP's chip, much like F >Alpha was Digital's stating that most IA64 customers would be running" >HP's compiler might not be wrong.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:47:46 GMTu1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>e4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts. Message-ID: <C9VW8.139285$Uu2.31416@sccrnsc03>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageA news:sBNW8.7686$r2E1.5640@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...a >g< > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3D2B6397.ABAE8328@videotron.ca... > > John Smith wrote:bI > > > Seems pretty clear. If you are new to HP, you will be sold HP-UX onm
 > PA-RISC, > > > or now on Itanic.b > >uJ > > And Scott Stallards now erased message was also very clear: We'll help you K > > migrate from VMS to HP-UX (which replaced the "we expect you to migrateo to
 > HP-UX"). >4 >uK > Sure. HP listens and changes anything that sounds offensive. But let's bet> > fair....HP has been doing some positive things too.....let's see......thereL > was the let's spout some platitudes swing through Europe, the not found onI > the HP web site and you only find out about it 3rd hand training in NewpL > Hampshire for 20 people out of 411,000 systems in production deal, and theJ > summer USA 8 city while everyone important at customer's are on holidays > tour.   I Now that's a really great whine. Company puts together a training session ! (pilot program) and people bitch.o  2 Company puts together a roadshow and people bitch.  
 Go figure.   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 07:28:51 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler).4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts3 Message-ID: <GI3IKatShQvx@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3D2B3BFA.BC5ADFD8@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Nick Maclaren wrote:C >> Then I suggest that you quote performance figures based on them,dB >> and do not flame me when I point out that the figures quoted by> >> HP on Monday are not what most McKinley customers will get. > N > Since IA64 is currently still poised to be mostly HP's chip, much like AlphaO > was Digital's stating that most IA64 customers would be running HP's compilerI > might not be wrong.   G    I can tell you from painfull experience, you do not want HP-heritageaD    compilers.  If HP's compilers for VMS opn IA-64 are really of DEC&    heritage we're all must better off.  D    And yes, I've told Mark Gorham who seemed to think it was usefull	    input.i   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 07:33:05 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)y4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts3 Message-ID: <L9yo5q$vGpoZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  \ In article <3D2B5739.5B8FDEE6@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > N > Saw that ad today on CNN I think. I noticed the HP branding to Proliant. ButN > to me, Proliant = PC. Wintel is Wintel is Wintel. Whether in a 19" rack withH > the monitor in a drawer, or on a destop, it is still all wintel to me.  D    Many others don't think so.  We've got PC folks who find a clear G    preference for Compaq's name on Wintel servers, and for not Compaq'sl)    name (nor Gateway) on Wintel desktops.   A    I ask them to respect my expertise (no, rebooting VMS will not-2    fix the network problem), and I respect theirs.   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2002 12:16:57 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon).4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <agh8jp$2oul$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3D2B6659.2CDC0340@videotron.ca>,0  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: |>P |> Humm, I counted HP-UX, Windows (special edition), and various Linux flavours. |> That makes it 3.b |> aF |> Microsoft hasn't yet made a real/full version of Windows available. |> sP |> Alpha had Windows, VMS, Tru-64 and Linux. That makes it 4. Alpha had more OSs |> than IA64 has now.i   And FreeBSD, that makes it 5.u  B And if you include {Net|Open}BSD which are somewhat different from FreeBSD, your up to 6.  C I note there is currently no BSD/IA64 porting activity to be found.    bill   -- sJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2002 13:32:02 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts0 Message-ID: <aghd0i$pmp$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  c In article <GI3IKatShQvx@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:2_ |> In article <3D2B3BFA.BC5ADFD8@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  |> > Nick Maclaren wrote: F |> >> Then I suggest that you quote performance figures based on them,E |> >> and do not flame me when I point out that the figures quoted by A |> >> HP on Monday are not what most McKinley customers will get.  |> > IQ |> > Since IA64 is currently still poised to be mostly HP's chip, much like AlphayR |> > was Digital's stating that most IA64 customers would be running HP's compiler |> > might not be wrong. |> oJ |>    I can tell you from painfull experience, you do not want HP-heritageG |>    compilers.  If HP's compilers for VMS opn IA-64 are really of DECo) |>    heritage we're all must better off.e |> aG |>    And yes, I've told Mark Gorham who seemed to think it was usefullu |>    input.  B I have always found them quite usable.  But that is not the point.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679c   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:21:33 GMTc5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>i4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts1 Message-ID: <NpXW8.8$Vs6.331862@news.cpqcorp.net>r  H Oooh.  Boy am I offended comming from you.  Responding to "specifics" ofL your speculations, bad mouthing, and rabble rousing is a waste of time - andK so far you haven't become the moderator of the group.  It is however fun tosD watch you squirm as you turn out not to have a working crystal ball.       Bill Todd wrote in message9 <45HW8.646871$%y.39885907@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...n >mA >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messagen- >news:SeCW8.25$8Y5.382042@news.cpqcorp.net...o >>! >> Bill Todd wrote in message ...+ >> >> > ... >>( >> You want some cheese with your whine? >>J >> Oh my, Itanium-2 doesn't suck.  Let me see if I can throw in a bunch ofE >> other unsupported speculation to show why I wasn't wrong, or maybe3
 >someone'sH >> lying, or maybe the Intel reference platform won't be as fast as HP'sK >> system, or anyway - it will still suck later.  And if that isn't enough,  I I >> can always complain that the mythical EV8 would still have kicked it'so >ass.- >tI >You're starting to sound like a confirmed shit-head, Fred.  If you don'to- >care to respond to specifics, just fuck off.  >u >- bille >H >w >d >o   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:48:45 GMTo0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts9 Message-ID: <3d2c4982.2730890853@proxy.news.easynews.com>   4 On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:26:30 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:   L >Umm, when the ES80 and GS1280 come out, do you think they will be devoid ofI >performance metrics? And what of the 1.25GHz ES45 and GS320 due out in aa
 >month or so?t  E I expect to see performance metrics releaed for future Alpha systems.eE But I won't be surprised if there aren't any side-by-side comparisonseA between Alpha and Itanium.  I noticed that the performance graphsb? released yesterday by HP showed comparisons to IA-32, IBM, SUN,a: etc., but I only saw one Alpha systemon any of the graphs.  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:54:15 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsE Message-ID: <rUXW8.2244$wLk.551@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>e  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:C9VW8.139285$Uu2.31416@sccrnsc03... >00 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC > news:sBNW8.7686$r2E1.5640@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...t > > > > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message* > > news:3D2B6397.ABAE8328@videotron.ca... > > > John Smith wrote:tK > > > > Seems pretty clear. If you are new to HP, you will be sold HP-UX on  > > PA-RISC, > > > > or now on Itanic.  > > >eL > > > And Scott Stallards now erased message was also very clear: We'll help > youcE > > > migrate from VMS to HP-UX (which replaced the "we expect you to> migrateM > to > > HP-UX"). > >i > >tJ > > Sure. HP listens and changes anything that sounds offensive. But let's be@ > > fair....HP has been doing some positive things too.....let's > see......thereK > > was the let's spout some platitudes swing through Europe, the not found  onK > > the HP web site and you only find out about it 3rd hand training in NeweJ > > Hampshire for 20 people out of 411,000 systems in production deal, and thetL > > summer USA 8 city while everyone important at customer's are on holidays	 > > tour.s > K > Now that's a really great whine. Company puts together a training session # > (pilot program) and people bitch.f >a4 > Company puts together a roadshow and people bitch. >t > Go figure.    * I'm merely damning them with faint praise.  I They aren't serious about VMS. If they were, they'd be growing the marketl' rather than preaching to the converted.   H  Bet you'd feel a lot more comfortable financially if you had more "SK*'L newsletter customers. Most VMS customers would feel more secure in their VMS< investments if HP were serious about growing the VMS market.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:01:30 GMTG& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts% Message-ID: <3D2C4AB0.9060700@hp.com>e   JF Mezei wrote:r  N > Did I hear this right ? The "real" DEC compilers have been ported to IA64 to > allow you to compile VMS ? > H > I am totally confused. One hears news of Compaq having donated all itsP > compiler and compiler people to Intel and that from now On, compilers on AlphaO > would only get minimal maintenance and that VMS would rely on Intel compilerseP > for IA64. Then we hear news that some of the Digital compiler people are stillO > with Compaq (now HP). Now you tell me that some of the Digital compilers were<J > ported to IA64 and that this is what you're using to port VMS initially. > O > Is there some document that CLEARLY explains exeactly what the compiler storyT
 > REALLY is ?a  + I think I've tried before.  I'll try again.H  H 1) Most of the GEM developers were sold to Intel.  A few GEM developers G remain for ongoing support for existing Alpha customers and for future  C Itanium support.  Some C and C++ front-end folks were also sold to oF Intel.  Front-end folks (like me) for other compilers (Pascal, COBOL, ' BASIC, etc.) all remained at Compaq/HP.e  I 2) There is an Itanium target for GEM.  It was started several years ago gC with the original goal of having Visual Fortran on Itanium targets.>  H 3) Given that Intel doesn't have a BLISS compiler :-), it made sense to I enhance GEM to support an OpenVMS Itanium target (the GEM developers did rG this work before departing to Intel).  With this GEM in place, we have l@ the ability to take the existing front-ends and have the "real" F compilers for OpenVMS Itanium.  For various languages (BLISS, Pascal, G COBOL, Basic), we think this is adequate for the long-term.  For C, in nI the short-term (to aid porting of OpenVMS and to provide the ultimate in sF source compatibility for the customers), we have a Compaq C front-end F hooked to the OpenVMS Itanium GEM.  In the longer term, we are moving H towards using Intel (at least that is the last thing I heard) compilers C as those compilers are enhanced to provide sufficient source level e compatibility.   --   John Reagane' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leaderr Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:56:17 GMTj1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>l4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts. Message-ID: <lWXW8.471517$cQ3.39951@sccrnsc01>  = "Paul Winalski" <prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com> wrote in messaged3 news:3d2c4982.2730890853@proxy.news.easynews.com...c6 > On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:26:30 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon"! > <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:i ><K > >Umm, when the ES80 and GS1280 come out, do you think they will be devoidn ofK > >performance metrics? And what of the 1.25GHz ES45 and GS320 due out in a- > >month or so?- >-G > I expect to see performance metrics releaed for future Alpha systems.iG > But I won't be surprised if there aren't any side-by-side comparisonssC > between Alpha and Itanium.  I noticed that the performance graphslA > released yesterday by HP showed comparisons to IA-32, IBM, SUN,e< > etc., but I only saw one Alpha systemon any of the graphs. >d  H Good point. I sorta noticed that myself when I talked with the HPQ folksI last week. The response was evasive and inconclusive, but hey, HPQ is nottL positioning IA64 as an Alpha competitor. When the new Alpha stuff comes out,I it's likely that there will be IA64 comparisons... but comparisons with aK% system or systems from rival vendors.i   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:04:44 GMTd0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts9 Message-ID: <3d2c4b76.2731390842@proxy.news.easynews.com>)  C (ahem) Actually, I think it's an oversight on YOUR part.  The presslC release you quote doesn't mention the numbers from Intel Pentium 4.k2 Check out the SPEC_int_base2000 graph at this URL:  I http://www.hp.com/products1/itanium/performance/architecture/speccpu.htmlw  B You'll see that an Intel Pentium 4 2.53 GHz/533 MHz system bus box8 got 893 SPECint_base2000, vs. 810 for the Itanium 2 box.    C On 9 Jul 2002 12:05:51 -0600, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e wrote:  m >In article <3d2b0843.2648651990@proxy.news.easynews.com>, prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski) writes:1B >> Hmm.  Doesn't match the numbers at the HP website, which showedC >> a top-end IA-32 system ruling the roost on SpecINT. McK was topst >> on SpecFP, though.j >> g >a: >	An oversight on your part.  All about sourcing and I get$ >	mine turned around too often also. >.5 >http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/08jul02b.htmn >pM >Commercial compute core: Itanium 2-based systems from HP with the HP ChipseteK >zx1 outperformed the best from IBM and Sun. HP achieved a SPECintbase_2000 G >score of 810 and 807 on an HP Server rx2600 and HP Workstation zx6000,  >respectively.(5)   
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:19:25 -0400e* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>4 Subject: RE: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts- Message-ID: <0033000071918656000002L062*@MHS>c  4 =0ADid it occur to anyone that, when small steps are0 taken in a positive direction, complaining about1 the size of the steps doesn't improve the chancesV* for additional movement in that direction?   WWWebb     -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETf' Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 11:01 AM B To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET4 Subject: RE: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts    < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:C9VW8.139285$Uu2.31416@sccrnsc03... > 0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC > news:sBNW8.7686$r2E1.5640@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...  > >r> > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message* > > news:3D2B6397.ABAE8328@videotron.ca... > > > John Smith wrote: H > > > > Seems pretty clear. If you are new to HP, you will be sold HP-U= X on > > PA-RISC, > > > > or now on Itanic.  > > >CH > > > And Scott Stallards now erased message was also very clear: We'll=  helpn > yousE > > > migrate from VMS to HP-UX (which replaced the "we expect you toy migrate  > to > > HP-UX"). > >N > >8H > > Sure. HP listens and changes anything that sounds offensive. But le= t's. be@ > > fair....HP has been doing some positive things too.....let's > see......thereH > > was the let's spout some platitudes swing through Europe, the not f= ound onH > > the HP web site and you only find out about it 3rd hand training in=  NewH > > Hampshire for 20 people out of 411,000 systems in production deal, = and  the H > > summer USA 8 city while everyone important at customer's are on hol= idaysP	 > > tour.d >aH > Now that's a really great whine. Company puts together a training ses= sion# > (pilot program) and people bitch.e >.4 > Company puts together a roadshow and people bitch. >o > Go figure.    * I'm merely damning them with faint praise.  H They aren't serious about VMS. If they were, they'd be growing the mark= et' rather than preaching to the converted.   H  Bet you'd feel a lot more comfortable financially if you had more "SK*= 'oH newsletter customers. Most VMS customers would feel more secure in thei= r VMS = investments if HP were serious about growing the VMS market.=    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:27:14 GMT-1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>@4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts. Message-ID: <mnYW8.140116$Uu2.32124@sccrnsc03>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message? news:rUXW8.2244$wLk.551@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...d >r> > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message <snip> > >o6 > > Company puts together a roadshow and people bitch. > >  > > Go figure. >f >r, > I'm merely damning them with faint praise.  J At the very least things are less stealthy in VMSland today than they were three months ago.,   > K > They aren't serious about VMS. If they were, they'd be growing the market ) > rather than preaching to the converted.   G I think it depends on who the "they" are. Certainly Mark Gorham and hiscI understudies are serious. As for the folks higher up in the food chain, IgJ can't help but wonder why NSK is viewed as a growth opportunity and VMS isL not. I can understand why HPQ would want to stress HP-UX, but methinks thereK are prospects who have no interest in HP-UX. VMS might be the Better Answer G for them. In competitive situations when going against IBM and MVS, VMS$  might be the Better Answer. Etc.  F HPQ has yet to adequately articulate a rationale for its VMS strategy.   >rJ >  Bet you'd feel a lot more comfortable financially if you had more "SK*'J > newsletter customers. Most VMS customers would feel more secure in their VMSe> > investments if HP were serious about growing the VMS market. >    Can't argue that point, either.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:39:22 +0100c% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts8 Message-ID: <jtkoiu0d20mik92vsruv2n2iofo86cj6p4@4ax.com>  4 On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:27:14 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:-   >-/ >"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messager@ >news:rUXW8.2244$wLk.551@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... >>? >> "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message. ><snip>d >> >7 >> > Company puts together a roadshow and people bitch.j >> > >> > Go figure.n >> >>- >> I'm merely damning them with faint praise.e >lK >At the very least things are less stealthy in VMSland today than they wereo >three months ago.  B I'm intentionally not saying much on this subject but I have had aE long chat  with a senior HP European marketing manager, who called me4C over at the bar at a conference recently. HP have really *felt* thee> customer feedback from VMS sites regarding HP's plans for VMS.  F And that;'s one thing I always wanted to achieve with what some regard as pointless stirring.   I'm watching...    >>L >> They aren't serious about VMS. If they were, they'd be growing the market* >> rather than preaching to the converted. >yH >I think it depends on who the "they" are. Certainly Mark Gorham and hisJ >understudies are serious. As for the folks higher up in the food chain, IK >can't help but wonder why NSK is viewed as a growth opportunity and VMS isFM >not. I can understand why HPQ would want to stress HP-UX, but methinks theretL >are prospects who have no interest in HP-UX. VMS might be the Better AnswerH >for them. In competitive situations when going against IBM and MVS, VMS! >might be the Better Answer. Etc.t > G >HPQ has yet to adequately articulate a rationale for its VMS strategy.a >  >>K >>  Bet you'd feel a lot more comfortable financially if you had more "SK*'eK >> newsletter customers. Most VMS customers would feel more secure in theirt >VMS? >> investments if HP were serious about growing the VMS market.  >> >u  >Can't argue that point, either. >a   -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:13:24 GMT.* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsA Message-ID: <UWZW8.24384$Bt1.1331605@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>e  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message+ news:NpXW8.8$Vs6.331862@news.cpqcorp.net...uJ > Oooh.  Boy am I offended comming from you.  Responding to "specifics" ofH > your speculations, bad mouthing, and rabble rousing is a waste of time  K The typical response of one who has nothing substantive to offer in return.: Fuck off, Fred.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:22:29 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts@ Message-ID: <p3_W8.15929$iX5.733725@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  7 "WILLIAM WEBB" <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote in messagee' news:0033000071918656000002L062*@MHS...e  1 Did it occur to anyone that, when small steps arel0 taken in a positive direction, complaining about1 the size of the steps doesn't improve the chancesv* for additional movement in that direction?    E Yes.  And it probably also occurred to most of those same people thatHK expressing unqualified enthusiasm rather than saying "That's a good start -"K now here's what you *really* need to do" might be a good way to ensure thate+ those small steps were the last ones taken.    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 12:34:39 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)f4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts3 Message-ID: <jNWpKPU4Ky2H@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  l In article <3d2c4b76.2731390842@proxy.news.easynews.com>, prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski) writes:E > (ahem) Actually, I think it's an oversight on YOUR part.  The presstE > release you quote doesn't mention the numbers from Intel Pentium 4. 4 > Check out the SPEC_int_base2000 graph at this URL: > K > http://www.hp.com/products1/itanium/performance/architecture/speccpu.htmlw > D > You'll see that an Intel Pentium 4 2.53 GHz/533 MHz system bus box: > got 893 SPECint_base2000, vs. 810 for the Itanium 2 box. >  >   # 	Right.  Scratch that subject line.h   				Robg   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:59:20 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>@4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <3D2C75F6.A33C8DDB@videotron.ca>   Alan Greig wrote: E > It may be telling that the current Intel "Itanium-2" ads running in F > the UK trade press list the "enterprise solutions" operating systems > being ported as: >  > Windows Advanced Servery > Windows Datacenter Serverl > Windows Enterprise Serverh  J I thought that only Advanced Server special edition 1.2 would be availableM shortly. Are the other ones coming "soon" or are they available already ? (or- are the the same ?)t  K If The list you provided mentioned some systems that are not yet available,1- then VMS and NSK should have been listed too.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:18:44 GMTX* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)A Message-ID: <E5SW8.55980$Im2.2481493@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   5 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in messages# news:3D2BE0E5.340E6C89@127.0.0.1...e* > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:   ...e  D > > Very big SMP machines are good when you need to hold state, callE > > it a DBMS if you like. Somewhere in almost every environment is ayA > > place where state resides. State has to be managed to prevent A > > it being corrupted or modified when it should not be, this issD > > most done using some sort of locking mechanism. SMP machines due@ > > to their very bandwidths and low latency (excluding GS boxesA > > obviously) are better places to hold state that needs to haveh/ > > multiple simultaneous access than clusters.P >sE > I'd like to clear this one if I may. From this response it's fairlyaH > obvious that the delicate operation of the distributed lock manager is > not understood,t  J Unfortunately, you appear to be the entity who doesn't understand it, even. though you described its operation adequately.  D The DLM takes a potentially bad situation (a distributed system withL non-negligible communication latency) and makes about the best of it that itI can.  This is laudable and indeed probably close to optimal in minimizing J communication activity, but still does not result in a system that is justI as fast as an SMP if any distributed sharing actually occurs:  if it did, H then no one would be getting excited about moving DLM communication into shared memory in Galaxies.  J So, despite what you appear to believe, your explanation in no way refutesE Andrew's statement (which was similar to one of mine):  an SMP is thetB preferred (more efficient, better performing, simpler, and usually0 lower-cost) approach until it runs out of steam.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:23:17 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)) Message-ID: <3D2BE0E5.340E6C89@127.0.0.1>e  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >  > Main, Kerry wrote: >    > >OH > >>>>Well interesting thought, but then an app that doesn't scale in an > >>>>0 > > SMP environment is a highly likely candidateC > > not to scale in a cluster as well, or had you forgotten that.<<o > >rD > > Nope. Different issues. Again, large SMP approaches are good forI > > applications designed to be broken up into many small pieces or for agK > > variety of mixed loads. However, in large SMP environment you also mustpJ > > deal with the issue of cache invalidations among many CPU's when thereF > > is a relatively low number of memory references that constantly isG > > getting updated. Yes, there are ways to reduce this problem, but it , > > really boils down to application design. > >f > ? > Sorry this is total BS. Large SMP machines are good at singleCC > queries on very large DBMS's this is totally unlike your example, C > and if you need confirmation of this look at something like TPC-HiE > where the fastest SMP systems are faster than the fastest clusters.a > The classic big batch job. > C > They are also as you say good at running lots of very small jobs,vJ > but you totally miss the point by disappearing down a cache red-herring. > B > Very big SMP machines are good when you need to hold state, callC > it a DBMS if you like. Somewhere in almost every environment is a ? > place where state resides. State has to be managed to prevent ? > it being corrupted or modified when it should not be, this iscB > most done using some sort of locking mechanism. SMP machines due> > to their very bandwidths and low latency (excluding GS boxes? > obviously) are better places to hold state that needs to havew- > multiple simultaneous access than clusters.n  C I'd like to clear this one if I may. From this response it's fairlyeF obvious that the delicate operation of the distributed lock manager isH not understood, hereinafter referred to as the DLM. In all the operatingH systems I've come to know, it is unique, and even the 9iRAC is a subset.  D Lock latency was known about over 10 years ago, and in VMS addressedF that long ago. Unfortunately it looks like no online references exist,F but it is commonly known as lock remastering, where the busy CPU takesH control of the relevant datastructures, relocateable DLM. (This has been@ further improved around 7.3). I presume this is what you mean by 'state'.  @ The DLM (local locking ignored) shares out its responsibilities,G reassigns responsibilities based on activity, and is able to regeneratehF and reassign as participants in the DLM come and go. For this purpose,F an SMP machine is considered a single member, however the CPU load forF locking can be controlled and redefined allowing other CPUs to perform) other tasks. Lock coherency, if you like.s  1 This is *far* from a simple "lock-unlock" system.i  @ http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/73final/5841/5841pro_022.html  @ I won't bother detailing what is possible, but Kerry talks aboutD application design. Knowing what you know, both as concepts, how theE operating system works, how the DLM functions both in a single CPU orvB SMP (and/or clustered) you can either code your application to runE efficiently, or like a dog. The DLM model allows enough variations toe2 best suit what you want an application to deliver.  G A programmer that is remotely interested in performance on a VMS system-C must pick up the book I mention above before they pick up a pencil.v  H There is a LOT more to performance than making bland statements. As withF much of the documentation set, the Programming Concepts Manual detailsE the hows and whys. An application can run like a dog or as sweet as a * nut, it is in the hands of the programmer.    iC > Big SMP machines are also generally better for big single querieswB > than large clusters because they don't have the same issues that' > clusters do processing complex joins.  > > > Yes cache coeherancy is an issue, but it isn't an issue thatD > any applications developers expect to have to solve. Interestingly9 > clustering does expect applications developers and also5> > administrators to design their way arround issues introduced= > by being in a cluster. The best practical example being theP0 > need for a DBA to partition data in a cluster.  D It is easy to misunderstand the DLM, programmers and system managers alike are often guilty.o  H Of course, you could always buy in a database application (e.g. Oracle).H In this case, you have a ready made cure all, jack of all trades, masterG of none. I would *never* cite performance as a reason to buy in someonezC else's solution. True application design only comes from performing2 systems analysis.    --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences. nclews at csc dot como   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:33:44 -04001' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> 4 Subject: RE: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660813@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Bill,   F >>> So, despite what you appear to believe, your explanation in no wayF refutes Andrew's statement (which was similar to one of mine):  an SMPA is the preferred (more efficient, better performing, simpler, ande; usually lower-cost) approach until it runs out of steam.<<<   F And I still contend that it depends on the application and its design,C what the business expectations are for performance and availability B considerations (including single vs multi-site and keeping data inH sync), the IT shops desire to balance the load (maximize use of existing4 HW) and the level of skill of the staff involved.=20  @ Both large SMP and clusters require detailed planning and a goodD understanding of the application to make them work most efficiently.  H Both clusters and SMP have pro's and con's (as you have stated) and eachG solution needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. As Nick pointed,D out - a badly designed cluster application can run like a dog in theE same manner as a badly designed application may not scale in a single  large SMP environment.  > From an IT Consolidation perspective, IT Shops typically placeE availability AND performance on an equal footing in terms of priorityvF since either one not meeting its goals will cause the project to fail.   Regardst  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Services= Voice: 613-592-4660P Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----2 From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net]=20 Sent: July 10, 2002 4:19 AMu To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Como4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)      5 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in messagee# news:3D2BE0E5.340E6C89@127.0.0.1...p* > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:   ..  J > > Very big SMP machines are good when you need to hold state, call it=20H > > a DBMS if you like. Somewhere in almost every environment is a place  G > > where state resides. State has to be managed to prevent it being=20BH > > corrupted or modified when it should not be, this is most done using  E > > some sort of locking mechanism. SMP machines due to their very=20=2 > > bandwidths and low latency (excluding GS boxesD > > obviously) are better places to hold state that needs to have=20/ > > multiple simultaneous access than clusters." >eH > I'd like to clear this one if I may. From this response it's fairly=20H > obvious that the delicate operation of the distributed lock manager is   > not understood,s  E Unfortunately, you appear to be the entity who doesn't understand it,r3 even though you described its operation adequately.   D The DLM takes a potentially bad situation (a distributed system withD non-negligible communication latency) and makes about the best of itF that it can.  This is laudable and indeed probably close to optimal inH minimizing communication activity, but still does not result in a systemB that is just as fast as an SMP if any distributed sharing actuallyE occurs:  if it did, then no one would be getting excited about moving 1 DLM communication into shared memory in Galaxies.r  B So, despite what you appear to believe, your explanation in no wayF refutes Andrew's statement (which was similar to one of mine):  an SMPA is the preferred (more efficient, better performing, simpler, and  usuallye0 lower-cost) approach until it runs out of steam.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:50:05 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)) Message-ID: <3D2C1F6D.26F5CA19@127.0.0.1>    Bill Todd wrote: > 7 > "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in messageo% > news:3D2BE0E5.340E6C89@127.0.0.1...   G > > I'd like to clear this one if I may. From this response it's fairlyeJ > > obvious that the delicate operation of the distributed lock manager is > > not understood,  > L > Unfortunately, you appear to be the entity who doesn't understand it, even0 > though you described its operation adequately. > F > The DLM takes a potentially bad situation (a distributed system withN > non-negligible communication latency) and makes about the best of it that itK > can.  This is laudable and indeed probably close to optimal in minimizingcL > communication activity, but still does not result in a system that is justK > as fast as an SMP if any distributed sharing actually occurs:  if it did,bJ > then no one would be getting excited about moving DLM communication into > shared memory in Galaxies. > L > So, despite what you appear to believe, your explanation in no way refutesG > Andrew's statement (which was similar to one of mine):  an SMP is theoD > preferred (more efficient, better performing, simpler, and usually2 > lower-cost) approach until it runs out of steam.  F I was actually trying to address the question about application designC and that it "wasn't" related to performance, but I think I made thesE point badly, I wasn't trying to argue the pros and cons of >1 CPU SMPr vs. clustered <=1 CPU machines.e  H The DLM is a consideration, as you point out, it in itself has differentF performance characteristics in situations/environments. The DLM can beH used correctly, or incorrectly in any given situation, affecting overall application performance.   -- w? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot comd   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:21:26 +0100rU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> 4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)0 Message-ID: <aghft6$eqh$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote:   > Bill Todd wrote: >  >>[snip]M >>robust batch queues, since I'm not familiar with Solaris support or lack ofuA >>it for that or equivalent facilities (nor, I suspect, are you).  >> > F > FWIW, Solaris is more or less "UN*X vanilla" here: at, atq, crontab,3 > etc., but no batch queues as VMS folks know them.- >     B But there is a wealth of 3rd party batch queue products, Control-M etc etc.   Regardsc Andrew Harrison:   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:32:54 +02001' From: JOUKJ <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>F& Subject: Re: PURGE   version set to ;12 Message-ID: <3D2BD516.9020500@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>   Vivek Soni wrote:o > Hi,y > < > With PURGE  I am left with the latest version of the file. > : > Ex. XY.C;11   XY.C;10  XY.C;9 .... and so on till XY.C:1 >  > PURGE will give me XY.C;11 > G > Do we any options in PURGE so we get XY.C;11 but is renamed to XY.C;1i >  >   3 Try this (replace the *.* by the wild card you use)1   $ PURGE *.*r $ RENAME *.* ;1b               Jouk   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:02:41 +02008= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>"& Subject: Re: PURGE   version set to ;1) Message-ID: <3D2BDC11.9753AF96@gtech.com>e   JOUKJ wrote: > Vivek Soni wrote: > > > With PURGE  I am left with the latest version of the file. > >h< > > Ex. XY.C;11   XY.C;10  XY.C;9 .... and so on till XY.C:1 > >v > > PURGE will give me XY.C;11 > >nI > > Do we any options in PURGE so we get XY.C;11 but is renamed to XY.C;1u > 5 > Try this (replace the *.* by the wild card you use)r > 
 > $ PURGE *.*a > $ RENAME *.* ;1    A small improvement:   $ PURGE *.*a $ RENAME *.* ;1 /EXCLUDE=*.*;1   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:16:04 -04002- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>R& Subject: Re: PURGE   version set to ;1, Message-ID: <3D2BDF1C.22667183@videotron.ca>   Vivek Soni wrote:sG > Do we any options in PURGE so we get XY.C;11 but is renamed to XY.C;1r  	 PURGE *.*p   followed by:   RENAME *.*   ;1    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:04:31 +0200e9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>i& Subject: Re: PURGE   version set to ;1' Message-ID: <3D2BEA8F.55F44D03@aaa.com>.  9 It gets a litle bit more complicated if using the /KEEP=n < switch where n > 1, as when keeping 'n' old versions of some log file...    Jan-Erik Sderholm.0   JF Mezei wrote:t >  > Vivek Soni wrote:RI > > Do we any options in PURGE so we get XY.C;11 but is renamed to XY.C;1- >  > PURGE *.*, >  > followed by: >  > RENAME *.*   ;1i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:26:28 +0200c< From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de>& Subject: Re: PURGE   version set to ;14 Message-ID: <agguks$letpc$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>   "Jan-Erik Sderholm" wrote...r > JF Mezei wrote:a > > Vivek Soni wrote:oK > > > Do we any options in PURGE so we get XY.C;11 but is renamed to XY.C;1d > >n
 > > PURGE *.*h > > followed by: > > RENAME *.*   ;1  >c; > It gets a litle bit more complicated if using the /KEEP=ne> > switch where n > 1, as when keeping 'n' old versions of some
 > log file...f  ( Fortunately, Hoff provided the solution:  )     $ RENAME  file.typ;*     TMPNAME.TMP;N&     $ RENAME  TMPNAME.TMP;*  file.typ;   cu,-   Martin --I One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender    VMS & WNT programmere7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.dewI One OS to bring them all      |  http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/ > And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:01:53 -0400:- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>w& Subject: Re: PURGE   version set to ;1, Message-ID: <3D2C768F.861D63A5@videotron.ca>  * > Fortunately, Hoff provided the solution: > + >     $ RENAME  file.typ;*     TMPNAME.TMP;b( >     $ RENAME  TMPNAME.TMP;*  file.typ;   Nop:@ 	$ IF F$SEARCH("TMPNAME.TMP") .nes. "" THEN DELETE TMPNAME.TMP;**      $ RENAME  file.typ;*     TMPNAME.TMP;'      $ RENAME  TMPNAME.TMP;*  file.typ;b   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:18:19 -0400sK From: "Encompass - HP Enterprise Technology Symposium" <KilleenJ@toast.net>." Subject: Quick Poll - two sessions/ Message-ID: <uio9gsogenp0ac@corp.supernews.com>b  H 1) If you had to choose between session #1 or session #2 which would youG pick and why? (Please assume that session #3 is being offered no mattera what )  4 2) Would you attend any of these 3 sessions and why?  + Thanks in advance (no HP replies please)...i    
 Session #1  H Developing Secure Applications on OpenVMS Using the Common Data Security Architecture (CDSA)a  F This session provides details on the Common Data Security ArchitectureK (CDSA) including installing, configuring and administering CDSA on OpenVMS.uH Since CDSA is just being introduced on OpenVMS, this session provides anK overview of CDSA and it's components, how they fit together and how CDSA isoD related to SSL. Just having CDSA doesn't help much if you don't haveG applications using it, so we discuss how to build a CDSA application on, OpenVMS.  	 Session#2p  6 OpenSSL for OpenVMS: Application Development and ToolsJ This technical session explains the components and tools available as partL of the OpenSSL port to OpenVMS. The session covers the various SSL protocolsH available and their use in application development that utilize OpenSSL.L Topics covered include an SSL application example, performance, certificatesD and other issues associated with developing along with deploying SSL
 applications.   	 Session#3M  K This session covers using OpenSSL to secure and encrypt data communicationslI over the Internet or other open network. This is an introductory session,lH but will cover creating and generating Digital Certificates, getting andI building the OpenSSL libraries from source code (under Unix and OpenVMS), I basic programming using the OpenSSL libraries in C, and a working examplelH that is portable between Unix and OpenVMS.Experience with either Unix orL OpenVMS, and familiarity with the C programming language is suggested. ThoseF without programming experience may also benefit from the discussion of0 applications which can or should use encryption.   --   Jeff Killeen   All Info: http://www.Killeen.ccB  ? ---------------------------------------------------------------r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:19:58 -0700m1 From: "Farrell, Michael" <MFarrell@voltdelta.com>s& Subject: RE: Quick Poll - two sessionsO Message-ID: <025766C9BBC5D511A4ED00B0D0F08C231635C4@ny_exchange1.maintech1.com>p   Session #1.a  H I think I'd get a better overall appreciation of what this capability isE from VMS, how it stacks up against SSL, and what the overall securitytB concerns are these days.  My VMS systems live in a fairly trustingJ environment at the moment as they are mostly "back office" processors, butK that is changing in a way that will require us to be more accessible to ourd external customers.a   Mike Farrell   > -----Original Message-----6 > From:	Encompass - HP Enterprise Technology Symposium > [SMTP:KilleenJ@toast.net]u( > Sent:	Wednesday, July 10, 2002 8:18 AM > To:	Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comh$ > Subject:	Quick Poll - two sessions > J > 1) If you had to choose between session #1 or session #2 which would youI > pick and why? (Please assume that session #3 is being offered no matterk > what ) > 6 > 2) Would you attend any of these 3 sessions and why? > - > Thanks in advance (no HP replies please)...d >  >  > Session #1 > J > Developing Secure Applications on OpenVMS Using the Common Data Security > Architecture (CDSA)  > H > This session provides details on the Common Data Security ArchitectureD > (CDSA) including installing, configuring and administering CDSA on
 > OpenVMS.J > Since CDSA is just being introduced on OpenVMS, this session provides anJ > overview of CDSA and it's components, how they fit together and how CDSA > isF > related to SSL. Just having CDSA doesn't help much if you don't haveI > applications using it, so we discuss how to build a CDSA application ona
 > OpenVMS. >  > Session#2  > 8 > OpenSSL for OpenVMS: Application Development and ToolsL > This technical session explains the components and tools available as partD > of the OpenSSL port to OpenVMS. The session covers the various SSL > protocolsgJ > available and their use in application development that utilize OpenSSL.A > Topics covered include an SSL application example, performance,  > certificatesF > and other issues associated with developing along with deploying SSL > applications.n >  > Session#3  > > > This session covers using OpenSSL to secure and encrypt data > communicationsK > over the Internet or other open network. This is an introductory session,cJ > but will cover creating and generating Digital Certificates, getting andK > building the OpenSSL libraries from source code (under Unix and OpenVMS),tK > basic programming using the OpenSSL libraries in C, and a working exampletJ > that is portable between Unix and OpenVMS.Experience with either Unix orH > OpenVMS, and familiarity with the C programming language is suggested. > ThoseeH > without programming experience may also benefit from the discussion of2 > applications which can or should use encryption. >  > -- >  > Jeff Killeen > ! > All Info: http://www.Killeen.cci > A > ---------------------------------------------------------------v >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:27:18 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>d$ Subject: Re: Rdb and Oracle Compared' Message-ID: <3D2C4446.F95B1B7A@aaa.com>D  + This was just posted on comp.databases.rdb.y4 I thought there might be someone on c.o.v thae might be intereseted...e   Jan-Erik Sderholm.,   David Cressey wrote: >  > Hello. > L > I've written a comparison of Rdb and Oracle,  from various points of view.& > I've decided to share a draft of theL > comparison with the community of other people who use, program, and manage > Rdb databases. > L > I've tried to avoid a "religious" attitude in making the comparisons,  but/ > they are, in many cases, a matter of opinion.s > I > I've posted a draft of the comparison at http://www.dcressey.com/rdbora L > where you can view it.  After posting it, I've noticed numerous typos thatM > escaped my notice earlier,  so I'm going to be revising it as time permits.@ > J > I'm interested in feedback about what I've written.  But please, please,4 > PLEASE, let's not start a religious war over this. > It's just not worth it.  >  > Dave Cressey > www.dcressey.com >  > --
 > Regards, >     David Cresseyl >     www.dcressey.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:49:09 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h Subject: RECALL suggestion, Message-ID: <3D2BE6DB.DB068599@videotron.ca>  K Not sure how implementable this is, but how about the ability to recall thep& last X directories that were visited ?  Q What I would even like better is that this would be JOB and not process specific.P  G EG: find out what directories were visited in the last couple of hours.p  F Of course, having the ability of RECALL CD listing all the CD commands# previously issued would solve that.   N When one rummages through the SYS$COMMON tree on character cell, the directoryM names can become rather tediious and it would really be nice to have featuresn? that allow easier going back/forth between various directories.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:03:19 GMTp$ From: "labadie" <labadie_g@decus.fr> Subject: Re: RECALL suggestion1 Message-ID: <bTRW8.1$oj6.110701@news.cpqcorp.net>a  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2BE6DB.DB068599@videotron.ca...I > Not sure how implementable this is, but how about the ability to recall9 the7( > last X directories that were visited ?   Hellog  ; I remember a cd.com doing that, defining a bunch of symbolst6 (cd_1=dka200:<durand>, cd_2= dka300:<dupont.perso>...)- Of course, it could end using some resources.o    B I will check if I find it somewhere. May be I saw it in an old VAx# Professional or a similar magazine.r   Regards    Grard   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:26:08 +0010 % From: paddy.o'brien@zzz.tg.nsw.gov.auo Subject: Re: RECALL suggestion5 Message-ID: <01KJXW0XGXZM000B0B@tgmail.tg.nsw.gov.au>a   JF Mezei wrote:d  L >Not sure how implementable this is, but how about the ability to recall the' >last X directories that were visited ?c >gI >What I would even like better is that this would be JOB and not process n
 >specific. >SH >EG: find out what directories were visited in the last couple of hours. > G >Of course, having the ability of RECALL CD listing all the CD commands $ >previously issued would solve that. >sF >When one rummages through the SYS$COMMON tree on character cell, the 
 >directoryF >names can become rather tediious and it would really be nice to have 	 >featuresd@ >that allow easier going back/forth between various directories.    M No!! I like recall to do what it does now.  Ability to read/write a RECALLed gM file on login/logout is a different issue.  Recently discussed here, and not i part of JF's submission.  J Our mileage varies.  Directory navigation is something I don't use recall N for.  I use CSWING or a home-brewed .COM file called TRY to navigate.  I have I seen a .COM, probably on the freeware CD, that kept this sort of record, v2 though I did not find it exciting for my purposes.  K I like to use RECALL for long commands like $ link or $ fortran where I am uK using "unusual" qualifiers.  On my privileged accounts, I use it to recall e$ DFU commands or accounting commands.  L If any consideration is given to JF's request, make a new command (but as I L said, someone, somewhere has written a .COM to do this) and not tamper with ! the commands that RECALL recalls.r   Regards, Paddy   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:59:06 GMT6& From: Guy Peleg <guy.peleg@compaq.com> Subject: Re: RECALL suggestion* Message-ID: <3D2C1204.DB33AA1C@compaq.com>   Not 100% related but....  H In upcoming V7.3-1 we have modified recall/all to accept a parameter, soP $RECALL/ALL dir will get you all the commands in the recall buffer starting with dir.   Guy    JF Mezei wrote:,  M > Not sure how implementable this is, but how about the ability to recall theb( > last X directories that were visited ? >aS > What I would even like better is that this would be JOB and not process specific.a >nI > EG: find out what directories were visited in the last couple of hours.a >iH > Of course, having the ability of RECALL CD listing all the CD commands% > previously issued would solve that.h >iP > When one rummages through the SYS$COMMON tree on character cell, the directoryO > names can become rather tediious and it would really be nice to have features A > that allow easier going back/forth between various directories.l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 04:48:53 -0700i1 From: "Farrell, Michael" <MFarrell@voltdelta.com>  Subject: RE: RECALL suggestionO Message-ID: <025766C9BBC5D511A4ED00B0D0F08C231635C0@ny_exchange1.maintech1.com>    YES!!!   Thank you for this.e   Mike  J P.S.:  Now if you could act on my prior suggestions for SEARCH, I'd be the happiest person around here.   > -----Original Message------ > From:	Guy Peleg [SMTP:guy.peleg@compaq.com] ( > Sent:	Wednesday, July 10, 2002 6:59 AM > To:	Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt  > Subject:	Re: RECALL suggestion >  > Not 100% related but.... > J > In upcoming V7.3-1 we have modified recall/all to accept a parameter, soD > $RECALL/ALL dir will get you all the commands in the recall buffer > starting withC > dir. >  > Guyr >  > JF Mezei wrote:s > K > > Not sure how implementable this is, but how about the ability to recall0 > ther* > > last X directories that were visited ? > >pK > > What I would even like better is that this would be JOB and not process  > specific.e > >-K > > EG: find out what directories were visited in the last couple of hours.l > > J > > Of course, having the ability of RECALL CD listing all the CD commands' > > previously issued would solve that.r > >vH > > When one rummages through the SYS$COMMON tree on character cell, the > directoryUH > > names can become rather tediious and it would really be nice to have
 > featuresC > > that allow easier going back/forth between various directories.,   ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 09:11:45 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)2 Subject: Re: RECALL suggestion3 Message-ID: <GjLw5iDQ404Z@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  \ In article <3D2BE6DB.DB068599@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:M > Not sure how implementable this is, but how about the ability to recall the ( > last X directories that were visited ? > S > What I would even like better is that this would be JOB and not process specific.t > I > EG: find out what directories were visited in the last couple of hours.u > H > Of course, having the ability of RECALL CD listing all the CD commands% > previously issued would solve that.0 > P > When one rummages through the SYS$COMMON tree on character cell, the directoryO > names can become rather tediious and it would really be nice to have features A > that allow easier going back/forth between various directories.h  C 	Well... early on I wanted many of the capabilities you list above,; 	so I made it so.     G 	Suffering a bit by Unix CD envy (had a few neat features) , I figured nG 	why not do better?  So I set about writing a CD.COM that added severalcE 	more features than the Unix folks have.  I store visited directories*8 	in the JOB logical table and they are accessed via CD |   NODE1_YOUNGR.WORK.QUEUES> cd |  G  #5 will be overwritten with DSK1$DISK:[YOUNGR.WORK.QUEUES] on next CD      0) DSK1$DISK:[YOUNGR]  1) COOL$ROOT:[SYSTEM]  2) COOL$ROOT:[SYSTEM]  3) DSK1$DISK:[YOUNGR]  4) DSK1$DISK:[YOUNGR.WORK]    Set default to which number?     	It rolls over at 15 entries.1  & NODE1_YOUNGR.WORK.QUEUES> cd dsk2$disk NODE1_> cd c NODE1_.COOL_TOP> cd \     1) MY_SDSK:[YOUNGR]  2) A_LINK:[LINK.LIVE.BKUP]0  @ Add/Overwrite $1$DQB9:[000000.COOL_TOP] to which number? (0-9) 5 NODE1_.COOL_TOP> cd?    1) MY_SDSK:[YOUNGR]  2) A_LINK:[LINK.LIVE.BKUP]5  5) $1$DQB9:[000000.COOL_TOP]i   Set Default to which number?  C 	You can store 10 entries and access them via CD? , they are stored B 	in symbols CD_DIR0 through CD_DIR9.  CD$DIR1 through CD$DIR15 are2 	job table logicals and store visited directories.   $ show symbol cd   CD == "@RWY_COMS:CD"   NODE1_.COOL_TOP> cd ;'cd  B 	cd ;'symbol_name forces evaluation of that symbol.  In this case,  @ 	The symbol CD is evaluated and you set default to the directory 	it evaluates to...v  4 NODE1_YOUNGR.RYOUNG.UTL.COM> search cd.com 1989/statJ                                   Rob Young  1989,1990,1991,1992,1993,1997  E Files searched:                 1       Buffered I/O count:         6iE Records searched:             428       Direct I/O count:           2GE Characters searched:        13575       Page faults:               28iH Records matched:                1       Elapsed CPU time:  0 00:00:00.00H Lines printed:                  1       Elapsed time:      0 00:00:00.00  B 	428 lines and stabilized since 1997.  Let me know if you want it.  ! NODE1_YOUNGR.RYOUNG.UTL.COM> cd??u  F    ??  This screen                   ?    Listing of saved directories@     ,  Return prompt to a "$"        \    Save current directoryL     ]  Go to previous directory      0-9  Go to directory stored in 0 thru 99     <  Set def [-] then down         .    Set default [-]oM     |  List of previous directories  CD   by itself lists all subdirectories.5/     ;'symbol'  Translate "symbol" to directory oO     >"string"  Search prior visited directories. If matched, set default there.d  D         See the bottom of this file for a more thorough explanation.   ---i 				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 08:54:51 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: RECALL suggestion= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0207100754.39ecc9c9@posting.google.com>t  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3D2BE6DB.DB068599@videotron.ca>...HM > Not sure how implementable this is, but how about the ability to recall the ( > last X directories that were visited ? > S > What I would even like better is that this would be JOB and not process specific.u > I > EG: find out what directories were visited in the last couple of hours.a > H > Of course, having the ability of RECALL CD listing all the CD commands% > previously issued would solve that.  > P > When one rummages through the SYS$COMMON tree on character cell, the directoryO > names can become rather tediious and it would really be nice to have featurestA > that allow easier going back/forth between various directories.s    E You could try my TO.COM. I can e-mail to you if you like. It does nothD keep track of directories used by spawned processes though. I assume( that's what you mean by "JOB specific").  D This program is a SET DEF program that has a recall stack consistingF of the logical names HERE, LAST, 2BACK, 3BACK, etc, which point to the@ last few directories you visited. (Yes, I know this violates theF naming convention, but the whole point of a recall stack is to make itD as easy to use as possible. I could rewrite TO.COM to fit the namingE convention, if desired, as time permits.) Running the program withoutaD any arugments lists the stack at which point you can select your newF default by number. The default stack size is 9 but this can be changed> by simply modifiying the value of the symbol STACK_SIZE in theC program. Also, the program prevents duplicate entries in the recalll. stack except under very unusual circumstances.   Here is more about TO.COM:  A TO.COM - A SET DEF program that fixes SET DEFAULT's bugs and addsa features. First, the bug fixes:s  7 SET DEFAULT has two problems with nested logical names:m   5 1.) If the first translation has a trailing colon andl7     there is no dir in the second translation, SYS$DISKt7     is changed to the 1st translation and the directoryg0     portion is not changed. The "actual" current)     directory remains hidden in SYS$DISK.e  s6 2.) If the 1st translation has no trailing colon, thenB     only the directory portion is changed! This can leave SYS$DISK4     incorrect thereby leaving the default incorrect.  F TO.COM eliminates these two problems. Also, SET DEFAULT will sometimesF change your device even though it reported an error. TO.COM takes care of that too.   
 Features:   E a.) LNM recall stack that avoids duplicate entries, even if you entercA the same directory by a different logical names or different diski specsfD (e.g., DK0 and DKA0 refer to the same disk). If you enter a dir-specC that results in the same physical directory as one in the stack, itl won't be duplicated.  D The recall stack holds 9 directories (plus the current directory) byE default and its size can be adjusted by setting the symbol STACK_SIZEs? near the top of the code. Each entry in the stack is equated toiA logical names HERE, LAST, 2BACK, 3BACK, etc. which can be used inoD subsequent DCL commands! Yes, I know it violates the official namingC convention, but the whole point is to make TO.COM very easy to use.sD (It could be rewritten without too much work to use the convention.)> The program calculates the logical name HERE which is a betterF substitute for SYS$DISK:[]. SYS$DISK:[] doesn't work when you are in aD directory like SYS$STARTUP. In that case, HERE works and SYS$DISK:[]< doesn't. Also, HERE is much easier to type than SYS$DISK:[].  
 So you can dos   $ TO SYS$STARTUP $ COPY LAST:FILE.TYP HERE:  D and it will work. HERE is always usable as your default directory as> long as you don't use any other program to change the default.  E You can also use a number to go back that many directories. E.g., useeF "$ TO 1" to go to the last directory. Use "$ TO 5" to go 5 directoriesF back, etc. You can run TO.COM without any arguments to list the stack,D then just type the number of the directory you want and press Return to go to that directory!  E b.) Defaults are checked for existence. If specified default does notn= exist, it won't set it and will tell you what the problem is.n  E c.) File-name stripping: You can do $ @TO.COM SYSUAF and it will takerA you to the directory in which SYSUAF resides. Also works when thevF equivalence name starts with "@" as it does in many implementations of SYS$WELCOME and SYS$ANNOUNCE.   F d.) Has logic to handle situations in which the default was changed byC another program, including storing the old default in the LOST slot  under certain circumstances.  $ e.) Directory brackets are optional.   f.) Short help file:  = Format:  $ TO [new-default] [save-old-default] [verification]r  cD new-default: [disk:][directory]  ! (directory brackets are optional)F              logical-name[:]     ! (equivalence name can be file-spec)E              <null>   - show LNM Recall Stack; prompt for new defaultr2   1 thru 'STACK_SIZE' - go that many defaults back>                     T - go to top level dir of current default*                     L - go to LOST default2                    .. - up one level (same as [-])(            -1 thru -8 - go up *-1 levels&                     \ - go to [000000]0          ?, H or HELP - display this help screen  nF You can use logical names from the LNM Recall Stack in other commands.; TO.COM interprets alphanumeric arguments with the following-B precedence: reserved values, logical names, directory-specs. Add aD trailing colon or bracket if needed to force desired interpretation.  OF save-old-default: [Y|N|1|0] - save old default in the LNM recall stack - default is Y d  : g.) Eliminates defaults like [000000.FELDMAN] when you run       $ TO .FELDMANd  E it puts you in [FELDMAN], not [000000.FELDMAN]. I don't know why, but C I just hate the extra 000000 and it screws up the duplicate entriesv logic also.d     Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmanr afeldman gfigroup com    ------------------------------    Date: 10 Jul 2002 01:33:50 -0700$ From: issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho) Subject: RRD42 Caddy= Message-ID: <d0141774.0207100033.55e51423@posting.google.com>s  Q Has anyone in the UK got one of these spare that they'd be willing to mail to me?h   Any help MUCH appreciated.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:40:30 +0100o( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: RRD42 Caddy) Message-ID: <3D2BF2FE.399C7C7E@127.0.0.1>p   issinoho wrote:L > S > Has anyone in the UK got one of these spare that they'd be willing to mail to me?C >  > Any help MUCH appreciated.  E I'm pretty sure I have a spare one around, may have broken side clips- but works anyway.-  E Send me a private email using the address below and I'll sort it out.o (UK).t -- a? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesd nclews at csc dot comh   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:30:23 +0100d4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: Re: RRD42 Caddy8 Message-ID: <9bkoiu49jc5a9lgsf92s15qhueon13ouh3@4ax.com>  F On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:40:30 +0100, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:   >issinoho wrote: >> gT >> Has anyone in the UK got one of these spare that they'd be willing to mail to me? >>   >> Any help MUCH appreciated.l >tF >I'm pretty sure I have a spare one around, may have broken side clips >but works anyway.  F It would be kinder to give away a spare RRD46 or the like ;-)  LoadingJ anything off a single-speed drive is fine if you like cooking a meal while you wait...d  H I am notoriously mean, but have bought two 2nd hand 4x drives for my ownK machines rather than use a spare 40 or 42 from the office supply !  Neitherm# are DEC, but both worked just fine.r     	John    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:51:32 +0100h( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: RRD42 Caddy) Message-ID: <3D2C5804.D5078974@127.0.0.1>y   John Laird wrote:< > H > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:40:30 +0100, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> > wrote: >  > >issinoho wrote: > >>V > >> Has anyone in the UK got one of these spare that they'd be willing to mail to me? > >> > >> Any help MUCH appreciated.- > >-H > >I'm pretty sure I have a spare one around, may have broken side clips > >but works anyway. > H > It would be kinder to give away a spare RRD46 or the like ;-)  LoadingL > anything off a single-speed drive is fine if you like cooking a meal while
 > you wait...l  A The DEC 2000 has an RRD45 or 46 which uses one of those caddys...n  kJ > I am notoriously mean, but have bought two 2nd hand 4x drives for my ownM > machines rather than use a spare 40 or 42 from the office supply !  Neitherr% > are DEC, but both worked just fine.t  G I think a caddy would survive a postal journey, I'm fairly sure the GPOnF or whatever they are calling themselves these days would do a good jobD of loosening anything more complex into more constituent bits than aF present day Alpha uses for addressing. That is, if they didn't lose it or misdeliver it first.k  G I successfully defended a GATSO speed ticket based on gathered evidenceoD of said "company's" inability to perform a basic function, but I did  have some compelling evidence...  4 (BTW, I do NOT advocate speeding, and it wasn't me). -- u? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer SciencesT nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2002 01:42 CDTf' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)t) Subject: Re: SET FILE/TRUNCATE equivalentL- Message-ID: <10JUL200201420925@gerg.tamu.edu>r  5 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes...c }Carl Perkins wrote: }> eG }> "Antony Wardle" <antony.wardle@nospammmmm.optusnet.com.au> writes...o- }> }let me know if you find out how to do it.a }> }2 }> }I have a file that is a 2.2 million lines long+ }> }and I only want the first 11 charactersc% }> }from each line, I will have to do-( }> }this every few days, so I guess that( }> }dcl is out for me, and I don't speak }> }programming languages ;-(C }> } }> }ant  }> g, }> Of course you can do it in DCL. Try this: }> l }> $ create first11.sortspec' }> /field=(name=textdata,pos:1,size:11)t	 }> /key=1r }> /data=textdataiM }> $ sort/spec=first11.sortspec/stable really_big_file.txt smaller_output.txt  }> FE }> Tada. Well, technically it isn't exactly all in DCL - it also usesh( }> the sort specification file langauge. }> tA }> You only need to create the sort specification file once, thens@ }> reuse it every time. The miracle of the nonsorting sort - theB }> key is a constant, so the /STABLE on the command line makes theC }> records all appear in the output in the same order they appearedr }> in the input. } + }If you're gonna go that far, why not just:  } 0 }$ CONVERT/FDL=SYS$INPUT infile outfile/TRUNCATE }FILE  }	ORGANIZATION		SEQUENTIAL }RECORDl }	BLOCK_SPAN		YES  }	CARRIAGE_CONTROL	NONEl }	FORMAT			FIXED }	SIZE			11e }$ EOD }David J. Dachtera  D Because this discards records that are less than 11 characters long,E issuing an informational message for each? (And comes out really uglyL" when you TYPE the resulting file.)  B You can fix the discarding of short records by adding a /PAD=%X20,/ or whatever your prefered padding character is.o  A If you want it to look good when you TYPE it, carriage_return forp CARRIAGE_CONTROL is better.O  F There is more than one way to skin a cat, or trim records from a file.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:00:42 GMTC' From: shawnm@cotepe.carenet.org (Shawn)t Subject: Setting Term . Message-ID: <3d2c3d87.10421415@news.verio.net>   Hi All.o  B We just received a new DS20E server pre-installed with DecWindows.E When the server boots it boots to the GUI.  I know there is a command B which I can re-direct the boot to goto a VT220 Terminal but cannotC remember what it is.  Any help would be appreciated.  It is runningh
 OpenVMS 7.2-1      Thanks,s   Shawns   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:04:35 +0200i9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>  Subject: Re: Setting Termb' Message-ID: <3D2C3EF3.DBFE30FE@aaa.com>m   P00>>> set console serialo  : It's from the user guide for an AlphaServer 1200, so check with ">>> HELP SET " first...t   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    Shawn wrote: > 	 > Hi All.a > D > We just received a new DS20E server pre-installed with DecWindows.G > When the server boots it boots to the GUI.  I know there is a command-D > which I can re-direct the boot to goto a VT220 Terminal but cannotE > remember what it is.  Any help would be appreciated.  It is running4 > OpenVMS 7.2-1s > 	 > Thanks,n >  > ShawnB   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:05:17 -0400:* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: Setting Termc- Message-ID: <0033000071903278000002L082*@MHS>d  * =0ACan't speak specifically for DS20s, but! on many other systems the command    SET CONSOLE SERIAL  ) at the console prompt does what you want.    WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETC& Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:59 AMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: Setting Termc     Hi All.   B We just received a new DS20E server pre-installed with DecWindows.E When the server boots it boots to the GUI.  I know there is a command B which I can re-direct the boot to goto a VT220 Terminal but cannotC remember what it is.  Any help would be appreciated.  It is runninge
 OpenVMS 7.2-1)     Thanks,n   Shawn=   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:54:34 GMTe# From: "John N." <JNixon@cfl.rr.com>t  Subject: Stupid storage question9 Message-ID: <u0XW8.1543$XH.40868@twister.tampabay.rr.com>O  B Will someone please explain the difference between a SAN, and just/ connecting a few Alpha Servers to a few HSG80s.U  K More specifically, I currently have four Alpha servers with two FC adapters4L each.  We plug into a SAN that is managed by our Unix storage group.  In theJ SAN are two HSG82 arrays that are dedicated to us.  We are not getting theI support we need, so I want to pull our four HSG80s (two redundant HSG82s) I out of the SAN and connect directly to them and manage them ourselves.  ICK suppose I will need to buy two 8-port switches (since each Alpha has two FCB5 adapters, and there are four HSG80s) and some cables.   0 Will we also need a PC with SWCC to manage them?   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:36:56 +0100 (MET)a9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> A Subject: Re: System Disk Initialization Parameter recommendations ; Message-ID: <01KJXFH83KDE9870E1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>s  8 > I am about to migrate from a 4.1GB SCSI system disk to< > an 18GB SAN-based system disk (with OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-2).  D My rule of thumb for my hobbyist disks is /HEADERS=<25,000 per GB>, D double that for a system disk, and keep the defaults for everything ? else.  The defaults seem OK for "normal" usage (for a suitable  H definition of "normal" :-) ) except for /HEADERS, which is much too low  for modern disks.u  E I post this not so much as a response, but to collect comments on my P0 "rule of thumb for normal-usage hobbyist disks".   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:16:14 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>
 Subject: TIMAR) Message-ID: <3D2C4FBE.10AF15BE@127.0.0.1>    What does TIMA mean?  7 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/supportchart.html   5 e.g. Top line is ES45, saying we need VMS 7.3 + TIMA.i  D An ex DECcie told me that TIMA was "Technical Information ManagementC Architecture" but it doesn't make sense in that context. Now, if iteF meant patches, then ECO (Engineering Change Order) would make a little more sense.   / The "Digital Dictionary" doesn't have an entry.    So, does anyone know?s -- f? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Scienceso nclews at csc dot com-   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:32:16 GMT:5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>) Subject: Re: TIMAL2 Message-ID: <kkZW8.11$2t6.337010@news.cpqcorp.net>  K It means a patch kit.  Why we insist on calling it TIMA is beyond me, whichs; is the name of the process used to generate the patch kits.w      ; Nic Clews wrote in message <3D2C4FBE.10AF15BE@127.0.0.1>...  >What does TIMA mean?  >e8 >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/supportchart.html >w6 >e.g. Top line is ES45, saying we need VMS 7.3 + TIMA. >wE >An ex DECcie told me that TIMA was "Technical Information ManagementuD >Architecture" but it doesn't make sense in that context. Now, if itG >meant patches, then ECO (Engineering Change Order) would make a littleY >more sense. >c0 >The "Digital Dictionary" doesn't have an entry. >e >So, does anyone know? >--y@ >Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences >nclews at csc dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 17:27:32 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: TIMAu) Message-ID: <3D2C6074.E7254F32@127.0.0.1>s   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > M > It means a patch kit.  Why we insist on calling it TIMA is beyond me, which,= > is the name of the process used to generate the patch kits.i  H Thank you for that. Is it worth saying what the process is called or are? the names and reasons lost in history? Is it a FLA (Four Letters	 Acronym)?l   -- t? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencest nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:39:40 GMTr5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>t Subject: Re: TIMAd2 Message-ID: <grZW8.13$yx6.554094@news.cpqcorp.net>  I For all I know, what the other DECie told you is what it stands for.  I'mcF sure Hoff will pipe in with the correct answer.  But all that you as a7 customer should need to know is that TIMA == Patch Kit.E      ; Nic Clews wrote in message <3D2C6074.E7254F32@127.0.0.1>...A >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  >>H >> It means a patch kit.  Why we insist on calling it TIMA is beyond me, which > >> is the name of the process used to generate the patch kits. >gI >Thank you for that. Is it worth saying what the process is called or areh@ >the names and reasons lost in history? Is it a FLA (Four Letter
 >Acronym)? >t >--s@ >Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences >nclews at csc dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:51:52 -0400M' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>  Subject: RE: TIMAmT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660819@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Nick,e  & Re: TIMA .. Walking down memory lane..  G Having been fairly involved with TIMA on the CS Support side in a prior ) lifetime, I can add some details on this.e  G TIMA does stand for "Technical Information Management Architecture". Its@ was developed back in the Digital days and has been going since.  D In addition to formal patch kits, its early days also delivered TechA Information directly to the end users based on a profile that youhG established for yourself ie. among other things, give me blitzes and/orsC technical information on subject A, B, X and Y but nothing else.=20b   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantn Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Servicesl Voice: 613-592-4660. Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----2 From: Nic Clews [mailto:sendspamhere@127.0.0.1]=20 Sent: July 10, 2002 11:16 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com$
 Subject: TIMA      What does TIMA mean?  7 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/supportchart.htmlD  5 e.g. Top line is ES45, saying we need VMS 7.3 + TIMA.Y  D An ex DECcie told me that TIMA was "Technical Information ManagementC Architecture" but it doesn't make sense in that context. Now, if ittF meant patches, then ECO (Engineering Change Order) would make a little more sense.o  / The "Digital Dictionary" doesn't have an entry..   So, does anyone know?  --=20tF Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:02:21 -0400u6 From: "John.Malmberg" <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq> Subject: Re: TIMAd4 Message-ID: <3D2C689D.1020502@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>   Nic Clews wrote:%  > Is it a FLA (Four Letter Acronym)?   ! No, it is an ETLA - Extended TLA.    -JohnY! malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hpd Personal Opinion OnlyF   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:59:42 +0200 = From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>.# Subject: Re: Used Alpha's and Vax'sh) Message-ID: <3D2BDB5E.77402655@gtech.com>g   Jim Rizzolo wrote:B > I am trying to locate used OpenVMS systems (Alpha and VAX). DoesC > anyone know of any websites where I can find sellers?  Thank you.t   www.islandco.com   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:34:45 +0200t2 From: "Frits A.M. Storms" <frits@storms.tmfweb.nl>8 Subject: Re: Using GNU C on OpenVMS FAQ (Looking for it)? Message-ID: <3d2c2a10$0$94886$e4fe514c@dreader3.news.xs4all.nl>   : "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> schreef in bericht$ news:3D25AE4B.9000500@qsl.network... > Frits A.M. Storms wrote: > > 	 > > Yep !T > > That did the trick. # > > I used CRT0.OBJ but that gave :  > > Hello World ! - > > %SYSTEM-E-EXQUOTA, process quota exceededt) > > Using CRT1.OBJ worked with no errors: A > > LINK/NOTRACE hello,gnu_cc_library:crt1,sys$share:decc$shr/opt  >cJ > I am not sure how your link statement succeeded.  I suspect that you are> > using a LNK$LIBRARY* logical name to bring in the VAX C RTL.   Well. Not really.c( $ LINK/NOTRACE hello,gnu_cc_library:crt1G works as well, so the options-file with sys$share:decc$shr/share had noh function in this. 3 (A good deal of ignorance on my part, I am afraid.)0= And forgot to mention : I am working on OpenVMS Alpha V7.1-2.n >EJ > The SYS$SHARE:DECC$SHR.EXE image has prefixes on all of the modules, andJ > the output from GCC, (unless there has been a major change) does not put# > prefixes on the external symbols.i >uI > Because the VAXCRTL is old, it is much better to be using the DEC C RTL0
 > instead. >oC > There is a special DECC shared image that does not have prefixes.21 Looked for it on the ftp-site but did not see it.eA Could you point me in the right direction for this image please ? I And can you install this image without any problems on a system like I ameF using without disturbing those programs who use DECC$SHR.EXE already ?; I am presuming that the name of that image is someting likeE DECC$SHR_NO_PREFIXES.EXE ? tnx, Frits StormsE > For an example of how to use the DECC RTL with GCC, please look at:e > $ > ftp://ftp.qsl.net/pub/wb8tyw/gzip/ >r > -John  > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Only  >p   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2002 02:11 CDTs' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)- Subject: Re: VMS Qns- Message-ID: <10JUL200202110600@gerg.tamu.edu>   ' <keshav_tadimeti@yahoo.co.uk> writes...-7 }1. While using SORT program, logical pointing to inputr7 }file is given and there is a logical that is specifiedc, }in teh place of the output file as follows:( }	$ sort/statistics/noduplicates       -/ }      /key=(position:45,size:17)      -  ! ECNr }             input_file   -! }             extract_reject_filet }             7 }INPUT_FILE logical is defined, but EXTRACT_REJECT_FILE 7 }is not. Will the same input file be the output file asv }well?  B No. It should create a file called EXTRACT_REJECT_FILE.x where "x"@ is the same file extension that the input file pointed at by the "input_file" logical name has.  4 }2. $ sort/statistics/spec=vms_cmd:bb_0360_bu_01.srt& }bb_tmp:'sort_file' bb_tmp:'sort_file' } 7 }In this command are the input & output the same files?e   Not exactly.  E The name of the output file is the same, but it will have a differentrE version number. If the input file works out to be "bb_tmp:z.z;1" then2' the output file will be "bb_tmp:z.z;2".a  ! }3. What does this search return?C6 }f$search("bb_tmp:''sort_file';-1")? WHat happens when }a negative stream ID is given?J }  }Thanks: }Keshav    Did you try it?h  ? There is no "stream ID" in the above, just a filespec. I assumey@ that you are confused by the "-1". That is the version number ofB the file and means "the version one lower than the highest version@ of the file". This will only work if the symbol "sort_file" does= not have a version number specified. Note that if the version > numbers are not contiguous it will still return the next lower@ version numberd file (i.e. if you have files A.A;1 and A.A;9 butC no other versions of a file called A.A, then the file A.A;-1 exists  and is A.A;1).  E So what this returns is the full filespec of the file in the "bb_tmp"tH directory with the name given in the "sort_file" symbol that is the next' lower version than the highest version.   @ For example: (The "Exit" is returned when control-Z is entered.)   $ create a.a;1 1l  Exite $ create a.a;9 9w  Exit 	 $ dir a.a    Directory $DISK1:[CARL]c   A.A;9               A.A;1b   Total of 2 files.a" $ write sys$output f$search("a.a") $DISK1:[CARL]A.A;9% $ write sys$output f$search("a.a;-1")c $DISK1:[CARL]A.A;1  D Likewise, a version number of "-2" is two versions below the highestC version, and so on. A version of "-0" specifies the lowest existingiB version number and "0", or just a semicolon with nothing after it,H specifies the highest. No semicolon (as the first of the two just above)B usually ends up being the highest version, but in some cases it isB equivalent to "*" - all version (like with the DIRECTORY command).   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:06:35 +0100DE From: Jamie Stallwood <this.no.work.try.something.else@project76.net>t! Subject: VS 3100/38: Boot messagey8 Message-ID: <l3qoiu0tub2v2q084ehcfiiagk9r1fed4v@4ax.com>   Hi,f  > I have recently acquired a VaxStation 3100/38, to which I haveB attached a terminal. I have no monitor and the switch S3 is in the correct setting.  @ When it boots it fails test DZ (serial line) - see attached test   Now according to7 http://www.whiteice.com/~williamwebb/ChapC/DOC-C-4.html>E The line 3 test should return 4000 if untested, and 0001 if OK. It iscD returning 4001. So does that mean it was both untested and OK, or is5 there a different return code on 38s rather than 76s?s  > Additionally, is there an owners' manual for this model around
 (WS42A-BC)   Many t hanks Jamie StallwoodL             >>> test 50s       KA42-B  V1.5           ID 08-00-2B-24-87-C3      MONO     0000.0001           CLK      0000.0001           NVR      0000.0001         ? DZ       0000.4001       ;       00000001 00000001 00000001 00004001 00000001 000012A0s    MEM      0008.0001              00800000    MM       0000.0001           FP       0000.0001           IT       0000.0001           SCSI-A   0909.0001  V1.58D       00000001 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 00000001 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF03	 FFFFFF05 L    SCSI-B   2020.0001  V1.58D       FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 00000001 FFFFFF03	 FFFFFF05      SYS      0000.0001           8PLN     0000.0001  V1.3  ?? NI       0011.700E          ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:23:07 -0600e From: Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net>o% Subject: Re: VS 3100/38: Boot message & Message-ID: <3D2C6D7B.3010600@srv.net>   Jamie Stallwood wrote: > Hi,k > @ > I have recently acquired a VaxStation 3100/38, to which I haveD > attached a terminal. I have no monitor and the switch S3 is in the > correct setting. > B > When it boots it fails test DZ (serial line) - see attached test >  > Now according to9 > http://www.whiteice.com/~williamwebb/ChapC/DOC-C-4.html3G > The line 3 test should return 4000 if untested, and 0001 if OK. It is2F > returning 4001. So does that mean it was both untested and OK, or is7 > there a different return code on 38s rather than 76s?d > @ > Additionally, is there an owners' manual for this model around > (WS42A-BC) >  > Many t hanks > Jamie Stallwoodp >  [snip] >  ? DZ       0000.4001       = >       00000001 00000001 00000001 00004001 00000001 000012A00  < Not sure from memory, but isn't this testing for an optional: 8 port board?  If so, it shouldn't cause the boot to stop.   [snip] >    8PLN     0000.0001  V1.3  > ?? NI       0011.700E         3 I'd guess that you're missing a network terminator.t< Items marked with a single '?' usually don't keep the system> from booting, those with double '??' do.  A missing terminator= is set up (for some reason) to cause a boot fail on power up.t  8 Plug in a terminator on the network port, and it it will# probably boot without any problems.b  8 You can also just try typing 'boot' at the '>>>' prompt.; It should boot from there even with the missing terminator.-   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2002 16:26:08 GMT( From: "Tom Gugger" <omnimed@norden1.com>; Subject: WATCH DOG--WATCHIT--PolyCenter/ OPEN VMS/ CONTRACT0( Message-ID: <aghn70$20v$0@192.153.35.30>   Subject: WATCH DOG' Date: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 12:08 PMS  9                                                OMNI GROUPW;                                                419-380-8853b>                                                tgugger@msn.com    :         SYSTEM WATCH DOG-WATCHIT-PolyCenter/  FOR OPEN VMS  F OMNI GROUP is currently searching for a resourse with SYSTEM WATCH DOG? For OPEN VMS.   This was formerly known as WATCHIT---Previouslyo! Known as PolyCenter for Open VMS.o  H OMNI GROUP has several contracts available in early August for the above skills,wK And need several people with those skills. If you have this experience, and  are interested,wL Please email (tgugger@msn.com) resume for consideration. These are excellent" Rates and good working conditions.  K                                                                       Thankm You.I                                                                       Tomu Gugger   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:41:17 +0200t9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> ? Subject: Re: WATCH DOG--WATCHIT--PolyCenter/ OPEN VMS/ CONTRACTe' Message-ID: <3D2C63AD.5594BA40@aaa.com>a   Where ?  In Sweden ?t   Jan-Erik Sderholm   Tom Gugger wrote:l >  > H > OMNI GROUP is currently searching for a resourse with SYSTEM WATCH DOGA > For OPEN VMS.   This was formerly known as WATCHIT---Previously8# > Known as PolyCenter for Open VMS.t >F   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:21:16 GMTo$ From: "labadie" <labadie_g@decus.fr> Subject: Who Knows Asterix ?0 Message-ID: <08SW8.2$ci6.43051@news.cpqcorp.net>   On jobserve, I find<    9 Software Engineer C++, ADA, Open VMS, Linux/Unix ContractIL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----H  International organisation in Brussels is looking to recruit a SoftwareH Engineer. 3-6 years experience with data display and processing systems.K Excellent knowledge of C++,TCL/tk, Linux/Unix. Basic knowledge of ADA, Open H VMS, GKS. S/W Engineering, S/W Technology. Data Processing, Networks and. Protocols (X.25, DECNET, FDE, ADEXP, ASTERIX).   Any idea of what is Asterix ?c3 For the french people, it is only a famous cartoon.d   Regards    Grard Labadie   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:23:39 +0100a( From: Martyn <mpattKNICKERS@bigfoot.com>  Subject: Re: Who Knows Asterix ?* Message-ID: <3D2BEF0B.2050109@bigfoot.com>   labadie wrote:   >On jobserve, I find >g >D: >Software Engineer C++, ADA, Open VMS, Linux/Unix ContractM >----------------------------------------------------------------------------4 >----nI > International organisation in Brussels is looking to recruit a Software I >Engineer. 3-6 years experience with data display and processing systems.tL >Excellent knowledge of C++,TCL/tk, Linux/Unix. Basic knowledge of ADA, OpenI >VMS, GKS. S/W Engineering, S/W Technology. Data Processing, Networks and / >Protocols (X.25, DECNET, FDE, ADEXP, ASTERIX).e >a >Any idea of what is Asterix ?4 >For the french people, it is only a famous cartoon. >- >Regards >  >Grard Labadieu >0 >1 >  1 >M& A quick search on GOOGLE reveals this:  ! http://www.sr.bham.ac.uk/asterix/L  " looks like a bit of a nice market.     -- ., Remove KNICKERS before replying by Email ;-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:55:11 +0100g( From: Martyn <mpattKNICKERS@bigfoot.com>  Subject: Re: Who Knows Asterix ?* Message-ID: <3D2BF66F.9050006@bigfoot.com>  
 Martyn wrote:n   > labadie wrote: >s >> On jobserve, I find >> >>< >> Software Engineer C++, ADA, Open VMS, Linux/Unix ContractP >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  >> >> ----sJ >> International organisation in Brussels is looking to recruit a SoftwareK >> Engineer. 3-6 years experience with data display and processing systems.oE >> Excellent knowledge of C++,TCL/tk, Linux/Unix. Basic knowledge of l >> ADA, OpenK >> VMS, GKS. S/W Engineering, S/W Technology. Data Processing, Networks and-1 >> Protocols (X.25, DECNET, FDE, ADEXP, ASTERIX).0 >>  >> Any idea of what is Asterix ?6 >> For the french people, it is only a famous cartoon. >>
 >> Regards >> >> Grard Labadiet >> >> >>   >>( > A quick search on GOOGLE reveals this: >M# > http://www.sr.bham.ac.uk/asterix/  >t$ > looks like a bit of a nice market. >s > 
 I meant nich    -- s, Remove KNICKERS before replying by Email ;-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:50:41 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>P  Subject: Re: Who Knows Asterix ?, Message-ID: <3D2C73F0.38FECA7B@videotron.ca>   labadie wrote: > Any idea of what is Asterix ? 5 > For the french people, it is only a famous cartoon.   N "Only" ????? Astrix is tantamount to a history book to most who grew up on itN and learned about how Les Gaulois put up a fight against the Romans... Without& Asterix, most wouldn't know about it !   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.377 ************************