1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 11 Jul 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 379       Contents:) "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - RE: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) # Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study # Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study # Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study # Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study # Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study 6 Alpha 255 UCX 4.2 slowness - A woeful tale. Any ideas?' Alpha boards in a microVAx 3100-90 box. + Re: Alpha boards in a microVAx 3100-90 box. + RE: Alpha boards in a microVAx 3100-90 box.  Archive Backup System class:' Re: C and X11 programming, finding info  Re: Convert conundrum. Help? Re: Convert conundrum. Help?- DECdoc -> PDF (Was: Looking for your opinion) $ Re: Disk drives for Digital PW 433au Re: DS10 shutting down Re: DS10 shutting down Re: DS10 shutting down Re: DS10 shutting down F$getsyi hidden Feature ?  FTP Hang Question " List the processes using a mailbox& Re: List the processes using a mailbox( Looking for terminal session sharing pgm Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: Looking for your opinion Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh...+ Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow) + Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow) . Re: OpenSSL and certificates concept questions Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors  Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors  Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors  RE: OpenVMS Ambassadors  Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors  Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors  Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors - Quality control problems in VMS Engineering ? 1 Re: Quality control problems in VMS Engineering ?  Re: Quorum discussion/questions  Re: RRD42 Caddy 8 Re: System Disk Initialization Parameter recommendations Re: VAX Scan on OpenVMS Alpha > VMS vs. MVS (was: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts) Re: VS 3100/38: Boot message Re: VS 3100/38: Boot message Re: Which thread am I in ?J Re: Who Knows Asterix / how difficult it is to do a correct translation... Re: Who Knows Asterix ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:12:00 GMT 2 From: "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@PleaseRemove.att.net>2 Subject: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)G Message-ID: <k7iX8.93364$UT.6165173@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>   5 "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message * news:agk81u$8pk$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...   snip  > > I think that it depends on what you are comparing them with.; > I agree that they are better than an unclear CISC, but my = > experience is that they have a much larger number of really ( > nasty problems than the cleaner CISCs.  G This brings up an interesting question. What do you consider a "clean"" H CISC?  Intel (and AMD) has proven that you can take what most consider aH really ugly CISC instruction set and make it run very fast, at least forJ integer code.  I suspect that if it wasn't saddled with the byzantine 8087L compatible floating point model, it could run floating point stuff very fast as well.  I So the question is, could a well designed CISC architecture out perform a L well designed RISC architecture?  About the only advantage I can see for theJ CISC design is the perhaps shorter instruction length leading to perhaps aK higher I cache hit rate and lower required instruction fetch bandwidth.  On F the other hand, you light lose some optimiziation opportunities as theI reordering provided by the CISC to RISC translation is probably less than / that what could be provided by a good compiler.   H What other advantages and disadvantages are there, and what would be the4 characteristics of a "good clean CISC" architecture?   --  - Stephen Fuld +    e-mail address disguised to prevent spam    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2002 16:27:22 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)6 Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)0 Message-ID: <agkbla$blm$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  G In article <k7iX8.93364$UT.6165173@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, 4 "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@PleaseRemove.att.net> writes: |>  J |> This brings up an interesting question. What do you consider a "clean""K |> CISC?  Intel (and AMD) has proven that you can take what most consider a K |> really ugly CISC instruction set and make it run very fast, at least for M |> integer code.  I suspect that if it wasn't saddled with the byzantine 8087 O |> compatible floating point model, it could run floating point stuff very fast  |> as well.   E Well, I regard things like the ICL 1900 and even the basic System/360 B instruction set as fairly clean - excluding the (optional) decimal9 arithmetic feature and a fair number of pustules like EX.   A If I were designing a clean CISC ISA, it would be very like RISC, A but with some of the heretical features added consistently.  Such A as, say, variable length instructions where a few bits in a fixed @ location in the first byte determined the instruction format and) number and format of operands, PRECISELY.   L |> So the question is, could a well designed CISC architecture out perform aO |> well designed RISC architecture?  About the only advantage I can see for the M |> CISC design is the perhaps shorter instruction length leading to perhaps a N |> higher I cache hit rate and lower required instruction fetch bandwidth.  OnI |> the other hand, you light lose some optimiziation opportunities as the L |> reordering provided by the CISC to RISC translation is probably less than2 |> that what could be provided by a good compiler.  ? My belief is that is probably a good summary of the performance > aspects.  I don't think that it makes much difference, one way
 or the other.   K |> What other advantages and disadvantages are there, and what would be the 7 |> characteristics of a "good clean CISC" architecture?   @ It could be easier to write a code generator, and therefore more> likely that one would not have nasty bugs lurking in it.  More? importantly, it would be possible to inspect code and determine A whether there WAS a code generation error for a reasonable amount 
 of effort!  A My objection to RISC is more that too many of the current designs > are unclean, as the programmer sees them, rather than they are> RISC.  So the above advantages could also be obtained in RISC.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:47:25 -0700 + From: "Dennis O'Connor" <dmoc@primenet.com> 6 Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)3 Message-ID: <1026405894.951169@nnrp2.phx1.gblx.net>   . "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote ...C > If I were designing a clean CISC ISA, it would be very like RISC, C > but with some of the heretical features added consistently.  Such C > as, say, variable length instructions where a few bits in a fixed B > location in the first byte determined the instruction format and+ > number and format of operands, PRECISELY.   A This kind of context-sensitive instruction decode is a major pain C in the ass if you want to build a superscalar pipeline, and I doubt ? the slightly decreased instruction fetch bandwidth and slightly < lower demands on i-cache capacity can justify it in a modern6 system, except maybe for really low-end embedded stuff. where smaller binaries can bring cost savings. --7 Dennis O'Connor                       dmoc@primenet.com 4 "We don't become a rabid dog to destroy a rabid dog"   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:22:05 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 6 Subject: RE: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEHMFFAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message----- 0 >From: Nick Maclaren [mailto:nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk]& >Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 9:27 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com7 >Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)  >  >  > H >In article <k7iX8.93364$UT.6165173@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,5 >"Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@PleaseRemove.att.net> writes:  >|> K >|> This brings up an interesting question. What do you consider a "clean"" L >|> CISC?  Intel (and AMD) has proven that you can take what most consider aL >|> really ugly CISC instruction set and make it run very fast, at least for? >|> integer code.  I suspect that if it wasn't saddled with the  >byzantine 8087 @ >|> compatible floating point model, it could run floating point >stuff very fast >|> as well. > F >Well, I regard things like the ICL 1900 and even the basic System/360C >instruction set as fairly clean - excluding the (optional) decimal : >arithmetic feature and a fair number of pustules like EX.  B That "optional" decimal is universally used, and is one reason why7 Unix boxes need cobol or PL/I for the commercial world.    > B >If I were designing a clean CISC ISA, it would be very like RISC,B >but with some of the heretical features added consistently.  SuchB >as, say, variable length instructions where a few bits in a fixedA >location in the first byte determined the instruction format and * >number and format of operands, PRECISELY.  F Actually you don't need to do that.  Intel has demonstrated that givenH enough transistors you can make even a pedestrian architecture run fast.; The info is there you just need to decode it ahead of time.  > C >|> So the question is, could a well designed CISC architecture out 
 >perform a@ >|> well designed RISC architecture?  About the only advantage I >can see for theA >|> CISC design is the perhaps shorter instruction length leading 
 >to perhaps a @ >|> higher I cache hit rate and lower required instruction fetch >bandwidth.  On J >|> the other hand, you light lose some optimiziation opportunities as theC >|> reordering provided by the CISC to RISC translation is probably 
 >less than3 >|> that what could be provided by a good compiler.  > @ >My belief is that is probably a good summary of the performance? >aspects.  I don't think that it makes much difference, one way  >or the other. > L >|> What other advantages and disadvantages are there, and what would be the8 >|> characteristics of a "good clean CISC" architecture? > A >It could be easier to write a code generator, and therefore more ? >likely that one would not have nasty bugs lurking in it.  More @ >importantly, it would be possible to inspect code and determineB >whether there WAS a code generation error for a reasonable amount >of effort!  > B >My objection to RISC is more that too many of the current designs? >are unclean, as the programmer sees them, rather than they are ? >RISC.  So the above advantages could also be obtained in RISC.  >  > 	 >Regards,  >Nick Maclaren, + >University of Cambridge Computing Service, ? >New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.  >Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk 0 >Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679 >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release Date: 6/20/2002  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release Date: 6/20/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:29:54 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>, Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study& Message-ID: <3D2D25E2.1000700@home.nl>   Kenneth Farmer wrote: N > A Rich Marcello email sent to selected OpenVMS customers anouncing the "2002; > Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study" and asking for participation.  > ; > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/07/10/1060371  >  >  >     P There is a similar Tru64 study as well. I've seen the questions, and I must say N it really is a good study. All the politically incorrect multi choice answers M are there, it seems the New HP wants to know what we truly think about these  Q matters. If the OpenVMS questions and multi choice answers are just as good (and  N why not), and these studies are an example of how the New HP is going to deal L with its Digital groups of customers, then it is time for a sigh of relieve.  N I did not use the word Digital by mistake, the answers to the questions do go L back to Digital. Something like "Do you like Tru64 because is was a Digital  product". Wooow....   O Maybe in the OpenVMS questionaire we will find the question "Would you like to  4 have Ken Olsen as VP for the OpenVMS bussiness?" :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:52:12 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>, Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study& Message-ID: <3D2D2B1C.5060508@home.nl>   Terry C. Shannon wrote: > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3D2CEE88.C8C142AA@fsi.net...  >  >>"Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  >>1 >>>"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message D >>>news:u_1X8.12195$wLk.7632@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... >>> ; >>>>"Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org> wrote in message : >>>>news:p2_W8.4431$Sb3.137375@twister.southeast.rr.com... >>>>G >>>>>A Rich Marcello email sent to selected OpenVMS customers anouncing  >>>> > the  > 	 >>>>"2002  >>>>> >>>>>Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study" and asking for participation. >>>>> > >>>>>http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/07/10/1060371 >>>>>  >>>>J >>>>Does this study mean that if enough customers don't plan to transition >>>  > to > J >>>>Itanic, and will be moving to IBM or Sun instead, that they'd consider >>>>reviving Alpha?  >>>> >>> I >>>That's a question only HPQ is properly equipped to answer, but I'd say  >> > the  > ? >>>odds are slim to none that the post-EV7 Alpha effort will be  >> > reinitialized  > % >>>13 months after it was terminated.  >>G >>In driver's ed. many years ago, they emphasized safety in the name of I >>"defensive driving" and stated it this way: you may be right, but don't 
 >>DEAD right!  >>J >>Not sure why that comes to mind just now, but let's face it: there are aF >>lot of folks who are dead, out of business or whatever, but at leastH >>they didn't have admit a mistake and back-pdeal to get back on track -G >>they gave up and died, went bankrupt, folded the company or whatever, , >>all the time knowing they were 100% right. >> >  > I > Yep. But here's a question: having cast all the EV8 developers into the D > not-so-tender embrace of L'Intella, and having lost over a year ofK > development, is there any way in which HPQ could re-start the effort now?  >  >   $ If they really wanted to do so, yes!  S Itanium develpment is slow as ever, so what is one year delay in Alpha technology ?   M  From the EV7 upwards, all Alpha's are designed for very efficient multi-cpu  Q systems. AFAIK this technology is NOT sold/licensed to Intel. With the exception  M   of the AMD Hammer, I do not know of any CPU with similar posibilties. That  E gives  Alpha's a enormous potential lead in high in high end servers.   H The other problem is that the Itanium road would almost lead to a Intel J monopoly. And if there is anything that is bad for bussines and technical I development, then that is a monopoly. It should be avoided at all costs !e  N The price of a CPU, or the price of hardware in general these days, is only a Q trifling fraction of the costs of a IT project. Reliability and quality are much 2P more important, and a good marketing strategy could point that out to customers.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:39:32 GMTC# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>d, Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS StudyE Message-ID: <8vbX8.719$WJf1.136@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>i  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:ag6X8.145261$Uu2.33296@sccrnsc03... >u> > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3D2CEE88.C8C142AA@fsi.net...d > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > > >u4 > > > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageG > > > news:u_1X8.12195$wLk.7632@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...o > > > >t? > > > > "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org> wrote in messageb> > > > > news:p2_W8.4431$Sb3.137375@twister.southeast.rr.com...L > > > > > A Rich Marcello email sent to selected OpenVMS customers anouncing > theo
 > > > > "2002 C > > > > > Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study" and asking for participation.n	 > > > > >oC > > > > > http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/07/10/1060371e	 > > > > >C > > > > C > > > > Does this study mean that if enough customers don't plan to.
 transition > toE > > > > Itanic, and will be moving to IBM or Sun instead, that they'dm consider > > > > reviving Alpha?  > > > >CL > > > That's a question only HPQ is properly equipped to answer, but I'd say > the B > > > odds are slim to none that the post-EV7 Alpha effort will be > reinitializedt( > > > 13 months after it was terminated. > >tI > > In driver's ed. many years ago, they emphasized safety in the name of.K > > "defensive driving" and stated it this way: you may be right, but don'tS > > DEAD right!e > >iL > > Not sure why that comes to mind just now, but let's face it: there are aH > > lot of folks who are dead, out of business or whatever, but at leastJ > > they didn't have admit a mistake and back-pdeal to get back on track -I > > they gave up and died, went bankrupt, folded the company or whatever,t. > > all the time knowing they were 100% right. > >  >eI > Yep. But here's a question: having cast all the EV8 developers into thenD > not-so-tender embrace of L'Intella, and having lost over a year ofK > development, is there any way in which HPQ could re-start the effort now?e    J Haven't you ever heard of the marketing phrases, "Back by popular demand",> or "Held over", or the classic "The customer is always right"?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:11:45 -0400n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger), Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS StudyK Message-ID: <rdeininger-1107020811450001@1cust206.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>0  5 In article <3D2CEEA0.539CF480@videotron.ca>, JF Mezein% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:    >Robert Deininger wrote:J >> If Compaq couldn't afford to continue Alpha development, what makes youL >> think HP could afford to restart it?  Have microprocessor designers takenM >> a pay cut?  Is IBM charging less to fab chips?  What's the new factor thateG >> radically changes the economics of Alpha development and production?t >tO >Since Compaq did not release audited and honest numbers to show that Alpha waseO >really losing money, it is wrong to blindly believe the Compaq propaganda thatr0 >claims they could not afford to continue Alpha.  I Then I guess it is also wrong to blindly assume the numbers tossed aroundeE here for Alpha development and production costs are realistic.  If anpG alpha CPU cost several times as much as the guesses seen here, it would(I certainly change the flavor of many of the "economic" arguments that haveC been swirling.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:58:25 -0400i- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t, Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study, Message-ID: <3D2DAB1F.A1108FF6@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:sK > Then I guess it is also wrong to blindly assume the numbers tossed arounduG > here for Alpha development and production costs are realistic.  If anrI > alpha CPU cost several times as much as the guesses seen here, it would K > certainly change the flavor of many of the "economic" arguments that havem > been swirling.  A Correct. But if Sun can do it, how come Digital/Compaq couldn't ?o  N If one company is able to develop its own chip and not complain about how muchL it costs, then other companies SHOULD be able to do the same. In the case ofL Compaq, it was clear that they were not interested in this and any argumentsL they brought forwards would clear be sqewed to help justify their decisions.  I Consider that prior to June 25, IA64 was a flawed architecture that could:J never catch up to Alpha, and was a chip so physically big and complex thatI Intel's production costs would be much higher than for Alpha (in terms ofsK yields etc). Magically, on June 25, IA64 was the architecture of the future>A which would quickly surpass Alpha which couldn't keep up anymore.   N It is very clear in my mind that Compaq didn't provide the REAL reasons why itL took the actions on June 25 but it has much more to do with its relationship@ with Intel (and HP) than it does about the true costs of Alpha.   J Consider also the reasoning behind the sacrificial offering of the DigitalL compiler people to the Intel god.  HP saw a reason to keep its own compilersK for IA64 which would give it competitive advantage. Compaq could  have donen the same, but it chose not to.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2002 04:42:33 -0700- From: bobmarlow@postmaster.co.uk (Bob Marlow)I? Subject: Alpha 255 UCX 4.2 slowness - A woeful tale. Any ideas? = Message-ID: <c5d3d5e1.0207110342.268e321e@posting.google.com>i   Alphastation 2552 Console Firmware level V6.4-1  17.01.1997 14:27:04 320M memory. 2 x 2G internal disks. CD, floppy.  Built-in network card, ewa-0.w& Added DE500 Fast Ethernet card, ewb-0.- VMS 6.2 - 1H3, y2k applied. Also ALPLAN05-062t; Pathworks 5.0 - 620F, y2k and w2k patch applied. Also patch ( to get UCX to work following ECO5 patch. UCX V4.2 - ECO Level 5.   3 Network tested and is definitely 100Bt all through.a  3 Using Decnet, can get a 50M file to/from in 15-20s.t7 Could do with this being faster, but having looked intob9 data transfer in VMS itself (i.e. at $ prompt), this timea; is probably best we'll get. (The disks we're using are slowt@ under VMS - I've looked at other Vaxes/Alphas, and its the same,G they don't perform anything like they should. But thats another story.)a  9 Problem is transferring data by UCX, i.e. TCP/IP, whetherd3 by LM (Pathworks), or ftp. Times for ftp upload arer4 typically 90s for 50M. By LM, same, and can go up to 8 minutes!!h  6 Actually, transfer by nft (which is Decnet), is taking7 90s to upload a file, very similar to ftp. I have neveri: known this before: nft was always a good fast standby when3 Pathworks goes slow (often made worse by Windows) -o/ here its actually slower! perhaps thats a clue?r  ) These times seem to then degrade in time.s< We need TCP/IP because more PCs are coming in with XP, which% can't use Decnet properly, if at all.e  > Any ideas? I have tried almost everything in the last 2 weeks,B and am now thinking of using old Unix box as main server, just use< the alpha so non-unix people can see files in a vax-friendly way (via nfs mounts).-  < Samba also seemed to be slow, and now after various patches,= doesn't work at all. I know there is a CMU TCP/IP, but I have"8 to have a LM (Lan Manager - mapped drives) element to it# for PC applications. (Samba is V2).c    ) Summary of what's been tried and failed:-f  . Both switch and >>>  (Firmware) set to FastFD.) Trying auto and HD had no effect, and nowt1 Decnet is giving speed we want anyway, so I don't,- think that's the problem, but for the record,i< the switch is a 3com SuperStack II 3300. The port being used  for the alpha shows zero errors.  9 Tried different PCs and some Unix boxes. ftp time poor one= all of them. For some PCs, discovered the card setting should @ be set to 100Bt Full Duplex, or it might not do that. But still, the problem is with the alpha.   $ analyse/system SDA> sho lan/fullp    nothing wrong there, apparently.  m> In sho lan output, EWA device name appears as 'Tulip', but its: really a DE500. Does that matter? Again , Decnet works ok,$ but UCX doesn't, so would think not.  : (VMS swaps EWA/EWB round from what you see at firmware >>>; prompt, so in VMS, EWA is the new DE500 Fast network card).0  " Added patch to VMS. No difference.   A very popular suggestion:-w   $ UCXK  UCX>SET PROTOCOL TCP/NODELAY_ACK  B But didn't help. The above reverts to default on restarts/reboots,; how can I get it to stay? Not that it really mattered here.:  4 (show protocol tcp /params showed this was not set).  - Times only slightly better (DM3 AND Xerox) :-y   DM3\ftp: 55s/21s XeroxD\ftp:50s/24s  & Did UCX$SHUTDOWN and then UCX$STARTUP, also set PWRKS to TCP/IP only.   Times no better.  ! Set switch to HD, FC off on both.b No change, so put back.u   Added SCSI terminator.   In VMS:-  ( $ set rms /network=127 /system  (was 8).    ; HP have done their best, I think. Yes, it is 'old' softwarec? and we should upgrade blah-blah, but then thats money. If we'ree< spending, I can get a Linux box that will do all we want for= less than 1k. Having been a Vax fan and user since 1981, I'mg6 reluctant to go that way, but that may be the reality.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:35:39 +0200t, From: aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de (Hans M. Aus)0 Subject: Alpha boards in a microVAx 3100-90 box.D Message-ID: <aus-1107021035390001@wvia20.virologie.uni-wuerzburg.de>  G Can I use either of the following boards as a OVMS system in a microVax  3100-90 box?  . 1) DIGITAL ALPHA EV6 FCO XP1000 (500MHz) CPU. ,       P/N: EQ-01769-01 und P/N: 54-25088-01   = 2) DEC Alpha Mainboard with 500MHz CPU from an AU workstationt   -- eB Cheers, Hans M. Aus, Wuerzburg, Germany,  aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:03:05 -0400u; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>g4 Subject: Re: Alpha boards in a microVAx 3100-90 box.$ Message-ID: <3d2dac6f$1@news.si.com>  H >Can I use either of the following boards as a OVMS system in a microVax
 >3100-90 box?d  H Very few VAX chassis were designed to electrically support Alpha boards.D The backplane for the VAX 10000 was one, but certainly not the 3100.  K Of course, I say this using only my wits.  I have no official knowledge onecL way or the other.  I just don't think is makes sense to believe it possible. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.coml= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:12:06 -0400a* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>4 Subject: RE: Alpha boards in a microVAx 3100-90 box.- Message-ID: <0033000072096949000002L092*@MHS>,  - =0AIn order to do that, it would require someh- amount of consistency in the non-standardnesst of DEC power supply connectors.c  ) Then there's the little matter of pushingd enough air to keep things cool.l   (The Multia Syndrome)    Need I say more?   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETe& Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:05 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET4 Subject: RE: Alpha boards in a microVAx 3100-90 box.    H >Can I use either of the following boards as a OVMS system in a microVa= xE
 >3100-90 box?.  H Very few VAX chassis were designed to electrically support Alpha boards= .aD The backplane for the VAX 10000 was one, but certainly not the 3100.  H Of course, I say this using only my wits.  I have no official knowledge=  oneH way or the other.  I just don't think is makes sense to believe it poss= ible.u --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com2A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.coma= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevente< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"9        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company=    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:15:57 -0400 5 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com>i% Subject: Archive Backup System class:i* Message-ID: <agkavj$dbh$1@web1.cup.hp.com>   Hi Sue,s  + Please distribute as appropriate...thanks..u   Ted,  ; HP Services announces the next Archive Backup System class:y  L September 16th - 20th held at the HP Facility in Colorado Springs, Colorado.  K The 5-day class will cover ABS and MDMS 4.0a. For a description and pricingh of the class  + please refer to VP115 found at the website:d  & http://www.support.compaq.com/valupaq/  L ****************************************************************************: **********************************************************  L Also available, for those already familiar with previous versions of ABS, is5 a 5-hour Internet based 3.2a - 4.0 differences class.   	 Overview:O  E The ABS and MDMS V4.0 Update course will give ABS and SLS experiencedKD participants 4.5 to 5 hours of training on the new features, upgradeE considerations and procedures, and management of the new ABS and MDMSmL products. This event was recorded using Centra Symposium and is available inB Playback mode through your Internet Explorer web browser. For moreH information on Centra Symposium visit <http://www.centra.com/> where theI Demo Center will guide you through various Symposium specific information.( including system and audio requirements.  
 Deliverables:.  H Access to a pre-recorded lecture and slide show created by an experience instructor and subject expert.  @ Distribution of Compaq Archive Backup On-line Seminar materials.     Topics Covered:n   ArchitectureK Introduction and overview of the new infrastructure and how that applies toe! data save and restore operations.a   Install/Upgrade/ConverthK Pre-Installation steps, Installation, Post-Installation steps. Database ando Catalog conversion tasks.e    MDMSview - The new GUI InterfaceK Introduction to the first ABS/MDMS integrated GUI and MDMS database for ABSh objects.I Reasons for and understanding of the new GUI functionality. Discussion ofs@ the 5 different user views. New login requirements. MDMSview GUI Demonstration.   CatalogsK Added Catalog Access for remote node Save and Restores. New terminology andi syntax.m   Database and Scheduling K Object changes and additions for the domain. Consistent set of DCL commandsiK across ABS and MDMS objects. Mapping and differences of old versus new MDMS F commands. Versioning is removed. New internal custom scheduling option) replaces the DECScheduler option in V3.x.i   SecurityE More security protection in a distributed domain. MDMS rights, SYSPRVoB privilege, ABS rights mappings to MDMS rights on per-object versusD per-operation basis. Three (3) levels of access control are defined.F Recommendations on what to consider and when to apply the new enhanced security model.   
 Documentation K Installation Guide - Updated; MDMS Reference Guide - Renamed/updated; Guide F to Operations - Re-written; Release Notes - Updated. Known Problems in V4.0(426/446/409)   # System Backup to Tape (Oracle RMAN)aL Support of Oracle8i and Oracle9i RMAN, jukeboxes, duplex, parallel, tape i/oI slaves discussion, references and key topics. Linking SBT with the OracleKI server. Configuring and testing ABS/MDMS for SBT. Example RMAN script andt- scheduling. Restrictions and Troubleshooting.m     Scope:  K The scope of this service is limited to the activities outlined above. ThiseH service does not include detailed Planning and Design, Implementation orG Project Planning. These services may be available from the Compaq Northe; American Support Center as a separate consulting agreement.a     Contact:    7 HP North America Business Criticial Enterprise Servicese   Customer Support Center   @ 800-354-9000 - Select software and ask for the ABS support team.  $ $275 for 5 hour pre-recorded seminar  " Any questions, please let me know.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:56:16 +0200 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)0 Subject: Re: C and X11 programming, finding info; Message-ID: <3d2db8b0.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>o  . JF Mezei (jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca) wrote: > Brian Tillman wrote: > > $ sho log/table=* decw$fontr= > > %SHOW-S-NOTRAN, no translation for logical name DECW$FONTt >nN > Same here. But I am on VAX, so I have learned to accept that even though theI > version shows 7.2, in fact, it is probably closed to 6.1 due to all the1 > missing features.s   $ show system /noprocessH OpenVMS V6.2  on node VAXMV  11-JUL-2002 18:48:57.99  Uptime  0 00:29:35  $ sho logical /table=* decw$font>    "DECW$FONT" = "DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_CURSOR32]"  (DECW$SERVER0_TABLE)t2         = "DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.CURSOR32]"7         = "DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_CURSOR16]"p2         = "DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.CURSOR16]"5         = "DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_100DPI]"C0         = "DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.100DPI]"4         = "DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_75DPI]"/         = "DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.75DPI]"e5         = "DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.USER_COMMON]" 0         = "DECW$SYSCOMMON:[SYSFONT.DECW.COMMON]" $ @sys$update:decw$versionsd7 DECwindows ident is                     DW V1.2-3941205V6 DECwindows server ident is              DW V6.2-9504196 DECwindows transport ident is           DW V6.2-9504197 DECwindows xlib ident is                DW V1.2-3941205 7 DECwindows OSF/Motif Toolkit ident is   DW V1.2-3941205g7 DECwindows apps ident is                DW V1.2-3941206t7 DECwindows programming ident is         DW V1.2-3941205a $   - Perhaps your DECW$Server hasn't been started?h  1 > (same with FONT/DIR which doesn't exist on VAX)s  K Same here. There is a FONTCOMPILER command, however. But no /DIR qualifier.k   cu,o   Martin -- yH    Emacs would be a great   | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer5    operating system,        | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deeL    if only it came with     |       http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/<    a decent editor...       | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2002 01:36 CDTk' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) % Subject: Re: Convert conundrum. Help?t- Message-ID: <11JUL200201364100@gerg.tamu.edu>-  & Koloth <koloth@telocity.com> writes...* }Make sure WSEXTENT is less than PGFLQUOTA   There is no reason to do this.  H It would be unusual for WSEXTENT to exceed PGFLQUOTA, but not a problem.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:48:30 +0100n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> % Subject: Re: Convert conundrum. Help?p8 Message-ID: <ctkqiusjrpb9cksl1b2475eqcjcjn39hl8@4ax.com>  , On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:46:53 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:>   >norm.raphael@metso.com wrote:I >> 1)  I always puzzle over a "-W-" error generated by a "-F-" error in ai
 >> subsystem.eN >> If LIB is fatal, how can SORT be only a warning (something died, but if you >> leave; >> the area quickly enough, maybe you won't be dead, too?))i >y >How about " >aG >Hi ! My name is SORT, I tried to get more memory to make the sort morehL >efficient, but I couldn't, so I reverted to another, less efficient method, >which requires less memory" >t >oro > N >Hi ! My name is CONVERT, my friend SORT told me a few times that LIB couldn'tK >give him more memory, so I decided to give up on SORT and proceed with theeN >CONVERT as if it were a /NOSORT. The output file may be "correct", but it mayM >not be the most efficient since records may have been inserted out of order.j >: >:. >(The above two message are mere speculation).  , Certainly for answer 1 it is not speculation   Search Result 1 1 From: hein@eps.zko.dec.c*m (hein@eps.zko.dec.c*m)r1 Subject: RE: Insufficient virtual memory on SORT p Newsgroups: comp.os.vmss6 View: Complete Thread (11 articles) | Original Format  Date: 2000/03/24 r  i  
 In articleF <F02D5A46B8AED311BE4F0090279FA2401E82F5@ppnt41.physics.ox.ac.uk>, John7 Macallister <J.Macallister1@physics.ox.ac.uk> writes...c( >>%SORT-W-SYSERROR, system service error/ >>-LIB-F-INSVIRMEM, insufficient virtual memorymJ >The second line indicates that the problem was fatal and so the operation >hasn't completed. f  F Noop. The second line indicates the underlying error sort captured and handled.B The file will be useable, but obviously you'd want to work towards	 resolvings that underlying problem.D Some of the quotas do not match with the actual available resources.         -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:52:56 +0200g9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>n6 Subject: DECdoc -> PDF (Was: Looking for your opinion)' Message-ID: <3D2DA9D8.A10716FA@aaa.com>n  E You can use either Adobe Acrobat Destiller on a PC, or (as I'm doing)o8 set up Ghostscript on the VMS box to run the conversion.? I run with one command (COM file) directly from the SDML source @ to a PDF document placed on a directory served by SAMBA to my PC! where I (proof-)read to PDF file.l   Jan-Erik Sderholm.l   Larry Kilgallen wrote:J > Postscript to PDF is easiest -- you do it already for VMS Documentation,J > don't you ?  (I have not seen a version of DEC Document that outputs PDF/ > directly, and yet it shows up on the CDROMs.)a >    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2002 05:53:31 -0700+ From: david.m.gray@bigfoot.com (David Gray) - Subject: Re: Disk drives for Digital PW 433au.= Message-ID: <4da983bf.0207110453.2f947bcd@posting.google.com>o  	 Hi Alan, e  @ Thanks for the info.  I'm quite interested in IDE drives using a; SCSI/IDE adaptor as I would imagine they are cheaper.  Will0 investigate further.  E I could borrow OpenVMS 7.1 from work but have since found out that my2- firmware is only compatable with 7.2 upwards.g  C I'm in Hitchin, north Herts if anyone could loan me an installationrA CD.   Don't need it just yet as I'm still waiting for the guys at $ Montegar.com to process the license.  	 Regards, h 	David  e Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message news:<uatniu42ds7bgdla53gkumm49lmg0ql36q@4ax.com>... E > On 9 Jul 2002 10:46:02 -0700, david.m.gray@bigfoot.com (David Gray)e > wrote: >  > >Hi all, d > >tH > >I have just bought a Digital PW 433au and am intending to run OpenVMSI > >on it via the hobbyist program.   The machine has a 2gb SCSI drive andLI > >I would like to add a further 18gb or 36gb disk to it but am wondering = > >if, space permitting I can add standard SCSI drives to it.b > G > In general, yes. Also see the recent posts concerning IDE drives with. > a SCSI/IDE adaptor.h >  > >:I > >Has anyone got one of the 433/500/600au series that has gone thru thiso > >route before. > >eH > >Also I have joined CUO-UK to get the license but wonderee where I can > >buy the installation CDs. > D > You can order the VMS hobby installation + layered products CDs at > - > http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.htmle >  > @ > "There are two kits available: The Alpha Kit and the VAX Kit. 8 > OpenVMS Alpha Hobbyist Kit  OpenVMS VAX Hobbyist Kit   >       ( > OpenVMS V7.2 DECWindows 1.2.5 (Motif) % > DECnet Phase IV DECnet OSI Phase V   > TCPIP V5.0 DCOM  > AMDS Java  > DEC C Pascal   > FORTRAN COBOL  > Notes Netscape Navigator M >    > C > OpenVMS kits are $30/ea (includes shipping, even to International) > members)." > F > Alternatively you can install from standard VMS distributions if youH > can borrow one. Several of us in the UK can probably help there. Which% > part of the UK are you located in?   >  >  >  >  > >Thanks in advance.  > >  > >David Gray.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2002 03:36:39 -0700+ From: Kor.Rinkens@vodafone.nl (Kor Rinkens)e Subject: Re: DS10 shutting down.= Message-ID: <fae8becc.0207110236.54c53047@posting.google.com>0  K Kevin Handy <kth@srv.net> wrote in message news:<3D2C557B.10904@srv.net>...lA > I have a customer with an Alpha DS10 that keeps powering itself,= > down (at least once a day).  Nothing on the screen (DS10 is 3 > powered down). I know that if a fan stops, it cang6 > do this, but the fans on this box all seem to be OK. > ? > Is there anything besides fans that can cause one of these tor? > power itself off, and is there any place I can look that wille> > tell me why it has done this, like a show command at the >>>	 > prompt?C > = > System seems to be clean (no dust bunnies inside the case),s7 > it's not in a very hot room, it's plugged into a UPS,y6 > UPS seems to be Ok, Windows PC's at the site are not > crashing.o   Hi  > Everbody is talking about hardware. Maybe you have an software! problem, what is consuming memorys   check you memory  < show mem/fu/pool and see what the npagedyn memory is doing.   = make a script what runs every 15 minutes and let it do a shows> mem/fu/pool/out=mem.txt then you can see if you have an memory problem.     Regards Kor8   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:01:24 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>. Subject: Re: DS10 shutting down , Message-ID: <3D2DABD2.99DCAE99@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:B >    That would certianly be logged if a serial console is set up.  N And if a serial console is set up, what is NOT logged is equally important. IfL there is absolutely no message on the console between the last opcom message: and the reboot sequence, then you can also conclude stuff.  L And if the system performs the self tests that are seen after power-up, thenK you can conclude power problems, whereas if the system just reboots in away6J similar to the auto-reboot after a crash, the reasons would be more fuzzy.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:22:07 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n Subject: Re: DS10 shutting down-, Message-ID: <3D2DB0AB.7DAF78DF@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:I > OK.  Then my next guess is an intermittent power problem.  Could be thenL > supply itself, a short, a loose/broken connection, or a component failure. > Sounds like a FS call to me.  E I **assume** that the person took the cover off and verified that all 1 connectors are firmly plugged in  and not loose ?   N If so, could field service really do anything without more information on whatL is happening ? Wouldn't it be a case of "swap one part, and then wait to seeJ if it fails again, and if so, swap another part" until the problem stops ?  I Seems to me that getting a printout of the console output would be key to   finding out what really happens.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:46:28 GMTv4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: DS10 shutting down 0 Message-ID: <3D2DC3A4.9CB6078E@blueyonder.co.uk>   "Main, Kerry" wrote: >  > Kevin, > F > Past general experience with these types of issues is that the powerE > supply is flaky.  Usually nothing logged on the system errorlog and0H > console message would just indicate a message which looks like someone* > kicked a breaker at the rear of the cab. > E > If I had to provide a WAG, it would be to replace the power supply.u >  > :-)u > 	 > Regardst  g  ? FWIW I has an AS1000A with similar problems a while back, nd a  ( replacement PSU was indeed the solution.   Regards,   -- o tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk u  F * tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address will cease to work June 2002 *   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2002 03:14:45 -0700+ From: Kor.Rinkens@vodafone.nl (Kor Rinkens) " Subject: F$getsyi hidden Feature ?= Message-ID: <fae8becc.0207110214.3b21f1a4@posting.google.com>c   Hi  F On some off the companies systems, we are running open vms version 7.3  = When we do a show mem/fu/pool the npagdyn for example is know  displayed in MB.  A For one off our DCL.com files we checked the use off the npagedynn memory.iF The procudere sends a warning when there is for example an memory leak in an application.  C The dcl.com Use Npagedyn, Free Npagedyn, Virpagecnt so this dcl.com2 does not work anymore with 7.3   I tried   C pagedyn = f$getsyi("pagedyn")   ! give the initial pagedyn in bytesiD npagedyn = f$getsyo("npagedyn") ! give the initial npagedyn in bytesA npagevir = f$getsyi("npagevir") ! give the max virtual pagecnt in0 bytesr  4 parameter is not documented in the vms help f$getsyi   My question is.u  D Does somebody know the f$getsyi parameter to get the free (n)pagedyn< and the parameter to get the current (n)pagedyn for example:   f$getsyi("free_npagedyn")A f$getsyi("cur_pagedyn")s  D maybe there is no parameter. If there is no parameter then i have to% rewrite the com file in an other way.r   Regards Kor.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:22:51 -0400o& From: "Scott Brooks" <sbrooks@psu.edu> Subject: FTP Hang Question. Message-ID: <sd2d86bd.015@PSUGATE.hmc.psu.edu>   Hi All,*  G In VMS have a COM program running from a batch queue that FTPs to an NT F Server running IIS.  Every once in a while the FTP service stops beingH available in the middle of the FTP process and the COM program just sitsH at the FTP step.  In the batch queue it says it is running, but it neverC ends until manual intervention is taken. Does anyone know how I canaH prevent this from happening?  (Like trap the error and stop the process, etc.)c   Thanks,e   Scott  r   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2002 04:02:00 -0700! From: soterro@yahoo.com (Soterro) + Subject: List the processes using a mailboxi= Message-ID: <d5440555.0207110301.58dde354@posting.google.com>u   Hello,  < How do I find out which process is using a certain mailbox? D I mean, the other way around from the process id is straightforward,D but when I look at the mailbox device it just says how many links it has, not WHO else is using it.E Is there a way of doing that other than checking one by one the wholec
 process list?i   Thanks,v Sorint   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:40:05 -0400t1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>n/ Subject: Re: List the processes using a mailboxt2 Message-ID: <3D2DB4E5.79F3A455@clarityconnect.com>  D As you have found out a mailbox doesn't care to know what process isF using it, only that it is used.  You can dump all open channels of allB processes using SDA and search that to find the processes with the
 mailbox open.e  	 $ ANA/SYSD SET OUT CHAN.LIS SHOW PROCESS/CHANNEL ALL EXIT; $ SEARCH CHAN.LIS "Extended PID:","MBA{nnn}:"/out=CHAN1.LIS & $ SEARCH CHAN1.LIS MBA{nnnn}/WIN=(1,0)   Soterro wrote: >  > Hello, > = > How do I find out which process is using a certain mailbox?MF > I mean, the other way around from the process id is straightforward,F > but when I look at the mailbox device it just says how many links it  > has, not WHO else is using it.G > Is there a way of doing that other than checking one by one the wholeS > process list?, > 	 > Thanks,p > SorinD   -- tC Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NYs0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan+ 	- Mark.Jilson@hp.com				- since 1975 or so  	- http://www.jilly.baka.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:39:52 -0600 + From: "Ransom Fitch" <rlfitch@peakpeak.com>o1 Subject: Looking for terminal session sharing pgm 0 Message-ID: <000d01c22901$f6c7f1c0$0a00a8c0@w2k>  G Looking for terminal session sharing software to be used in 'help desk'sD setting.  I had one at one time but am unable to find it in FreewareG listing (mostly because I've forgotten what it was called, getting' oldt! ya know).  Any ideas appreciated.b   Thanks,m Ransom Fitch   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:00:24 +0200i. From: "Gorazd Kikelj" <gorazd.kikelj@aster.si>% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionl. Message-ID: <T_9X8.431$QA.11579@news.siol.net>  < Could be possible to have an article archive on FREEWARE CD?L With this every OpenVMS site will have direct access to very valuable set ofL resources regardless of the availability to the internet connection. (I knowK some OpenVMS systems behind the firewall, no ftp, no big files to transfer,u etc...)p   best, Gorazd     --4 ----------------------------------------------------
 Gorazd Kikelj  OpenVMS system support Aster d.o.o. e-mail: gorazd.kikelj@aster.si www:  www.aster.si   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:50:34 GMTo# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion E Message-ID: <uFbX8.887$WJf1.676@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>l  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message D news:rdeininger-1007022233290001@1cust58.tnt3.nashua.nh.da.uu.net...G > In article <XPXW8.651$6DW1.553@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,h& > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote: >  >MJ > >My Alpha doesn't fit on my seatback table at 35,000 feet, so Bookreader isI > >out. Besides when I want to open the window to cool the thing off, theR cabinB- > >attendants and pilots give me funny looks.U >RJ > You obviously have the wrong airplane.  Maybe you should talk to Grumman% > or someone similar about upgrading.   = I don't have quite enough room in my garage for an E-8C   :-(    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:53:20 GMTT# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>Y% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion C Message-ID: <4IbX8.143$pxc.28@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>M  ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagesD news:rdeininger-1007022242040001@1cust58.tnt3.nashua.nh.da.uu.net...I > In article <OF2X8.7036$6DW1.5667@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,W& > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote: >  > I > >Get every Computer Science prof's e-mail address at every campus in at1 leastEJ > >the English-speaking world and send copies out via L-Soft's list-server toG > >get their attention. You have ten's of thousands of Computer Sciencee2 > >academic staff who have NEVER heard of OpenVMS. >s > Wouldn't that be spam?  L Not if HP had a viable .edu program. Then it would be academically dishonest NOT to know about it.d   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2002 02:24:42 -0700, From: Cplayerxx456@excite.com (CplayerXX456)% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinionp= Message-ID: <8a46ad4c.0207110124.3af37763@posting.google.com>   _ WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote in message news:<0033000071975959000002L092*@MHS>...k8 > Hymnals can be used to teach people to sing who aren't > members of the choir (yet).g > ; > A technical journal can have external as well as internalt	 > impact.e > 6 > So it is with a technical journal, the resurgence of3 > which can be seen as another small indicator thatX6 > HP may indeed take VMS more seriously than did prior > stakeholders.- > 6 > I remain hopeful that bigger indicators are to come. >  > WWWebb >  > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETs( > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 2:31 PMD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET' > Subject: RE: Looking for your opinionr >  >  > WILLIAM WEBB wrote:e; > > Bookreader by definition equals preaching to the choir.m > >>B > > And I think we all agree that preaching to the choir isn't the& > > most effective way to proselytize. > I > But is a technical journal not designed specifically to educate the chos > ir ?H > We're not talking about marketing materials here, we are talking aboutI > technical information designed to help the converted, not to help convem > rt.   E I'm certainly glad to see VMS carrying on for a bit, I thought CompaqsB might ditch it, but there does seem to be more commitment from HP.  A As for stories, would you believe my company recently printed theuE Tickets for the Fifa 2002 World Cup. Do you know what the server was?e  E It was a dear old Microvax 3100, running VMS 7.1, and Pathworks 5.0F.eG It wasn't always as fast as we liked, but we always knew we could rely i? on it. I can't imagine ever running a job this important on NT.d* Only a Unix box would've been as reliable.   C456   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:21:20 +0100r% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> % Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion28 Message-ID: <7ejqiu494plprtubd4346c48mjmetatjmr@4ax.com>  E On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:33:29 -0400, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Roberts Deininger) wrote:B  F >In article <XPXW8.651$6DW1.553@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,% >"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:a >n >hL >>My Alpha doesn't fit on my seatback table at 35,000 feet, so Bookreader isN >>out. Besides when I want to open the window to cool the thing off, the cabin, >>attendants and pilots give me funny looks. >.I >You obviously have the wrong airplane.  Maybe you should talk to Grumman $ >or someone similar about upgrading.  + Free JSTARS private jet with each issue? :)0 -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:18:13 +0100F% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>g% Subject: Re: Looking for your opiniono8 Message-ID: <dkiqiuk56lnjlrqmtnb531ra133qpl1pi5@4ax.com>  , On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:07:37 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:m     >OM >If anyone manages to get Marcello drunk, it would be interesting to know if, N >at the time Compaq tried to kill VMS, Marcello was already aware that Alpha'sN >fate was already sealed. I think it would have been 2 or 3 years ago already.  F I put that question directly to Marcello two years ago in a conferenceD call with ourselves. Marcello replied (I think honestly) that it wasD possible I was correct in my speculation that killing Alpha/NT was aE prelude to killing Alpha itself but that he was not aware of any such:C decision having been taken. He further agreed when pressed that, if2@ such a decision had been taken at a very high level, it would be possible for him not to know.r  D One thing he stated he did know for certain was that no decision hadC been taken to kill VMS at that time as he had made that a conditionh5 of taking the job of "Vice-President Compaq, OpenVMS"l  C Reading between the lines, Marcello likely did not know for certainnC Alpha's fate but knew the writing was probably on the wall. The VMSnD renaissance was his attempt to prove that VMS need not be thrown out2 with the bathwater should an Alphacide ever occur. -- Alan   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:50:32 +0000 (UTC)7 From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk% Subject: Re: Looking for your opinion + Message-ID: <agjre8$jrs$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>u  m In article <OF2X8.7036$6DW1.5667@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:I >u6 >"Dave Gudewicz" <dgudewicz@core.com> wrote in message3 >news:3d2c486f$0$1433$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net...d" >> > Q.    What would be the focusM >> > A.    OpenVMS and related technologies on a technical level, combinationa >> of  >> > advanced and intro level. >>M >>     All levels make sense to me.  Leave one out and you leave that crop ofs >> readers out.  And I canG >>     echo Ken's Windows in H.S.--> U**X in college comment.  I have a  >summer  >> intern and that'sF >>     exactly what's going on with him.  I'm sure there are others in >similar% >> situations.  This needs to change.vJ >>     Perhaps this publication winding up in school libraries and CS labs" >> would make sense.  Nice PR too. >n > M >Get every Computer Science prof's e-mail address at every campus in at least K >the English-speaking world and send copies out via L-Soft's list-server toeE >get their attention. You have ten's of thousands of Computer Sciencev0 >academic staff who have NEVER heard of OpenVMS. >l >o  D Well thats one way to upset every Computer Science Prof - SPAM them.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:18:37 -0400D; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>2% Subject: Re: Looking for your opiniono$ Message-ID: <3d2db014$1@news.si.com>  ' >> How do you print PDF files on a VAX?. >7 >FTP it to a PC or Mac.o  ) Certainly a non-answer if I ever saw one.  -- sA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com)= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventt< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:29:27 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> % Subject: Re: Looking for your opiniontE Message-ID: <XfjX8.2190$pxc.792@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>n  F "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote in message news:3d2db014$1@news.si.com...) > >> How do you print PDF files on a VAX?i > >v > >FTP it to a PC or Mac.d >e+ > Certainly a non-answer if I ever saw one.s    
 No, it's not.   J It's a workable, if not very elegant solution to the problem. But it mightL just be expedient for some users given their infrastructure, skill set, timeI constraints, and the infrequency of the need to do such things from theiraI VMS system given the quarterly-to-semiannual proposed publication and the2G number of times they might otherwise need to print PDF files from VMS..1  I It just wasn't the answer you were hoping for. In that respect it is very I much like seeing a return to serious OpenVMS marketing and sales to *new* 
 customers.   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2002 07:45:29 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...a0 Message-ID: <agjd2p$ejd$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  , In article <3D2CB590.465787A0@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote: V >Merced was terribly slow, but it was more or less a beta version of the architecture. >tM >Can one consider McKinley to be "production" quality and judge IA64 based on- >McKinley ?    Yes.  L >If McKinley is now production quality, isn't it fair to state that from nowN >on, IA64 would progress are roughly the same rate as competing chips ? If so,N >its relative position in the pack wouldn't change much over time. It may lead< >for a few months, and then be overtaken by another etc etc.  E Yes and no.  While that is so for pure process effects, we are pretty C certain that the original follow-on designs were cancelled, and the B next new IA-64 design is the Chivano, which will not appear beforeB 2005 and the earliest.  Furthermore, the Hammer may be more than a* routine jump, as it is a radical redesign.  O >What I don't quite understand is that EPIC should simplify a chip design sincetM >it offloads lots of the logic to the compilers, right ? If that is the case,tN >is it fair to state that an EPIC's chip improvements will come mostly through9 >clock increases with far less done through chip design ?   B It is unclear, to put it mildly.  Given the amount of the internalE design exposed by the architecture (far more than even RISC), I can'tyD see that much radical chip redesign can be done without incompatibleD changes to the architecture (i.e. ISA).  But I may be suffering from a failure of imagination.n     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:45:49 +0100k& From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...i* Message-ID: <3D2D37AD.C70FC829@kgcc.co.uk>   JF Mezei wrote:u   > Ken Green wrote:F > > Currently video editing uses less RAM than still picture editting. >3J > That is debatable. If you are compositing multiple images into one movieJ > stream, you start to consume lots of memory. And the the special effectsO > applied on a movie are close to if not the same to those phostoshop provides.n >3  A Individual DV frames are still tiny, 300K pixels at 3 bytes each,i@ a 35mm negative give ~24M pixels and really needs >24bit colour, so 1 image ~144MB.H With video editting you need lots of through put, but I've never noticed Premiere using much RAM.   >hO > But if you are talking about computer generated images from 3d models, if you G > want production quality, you will need heaps of memory and CPU speed.e  ) For this then the world is not enough :-)y   Cheers   Keni   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:49:35 +0100e& From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...s* Message-ID: <3D2D388F.4AFE9F0F@kgcc.co.uk>   JF Mezei wrote:g  , > -----------------------8<----------------- > O > Is IA64 more complex because it is EPIC, or because it was made by Intel withA$ > lots of compromises to please HP ?  K Shouldn't that be designed by HP with lots of compromises to please Intel ?i   Cheers   Keny   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2002 08:05:10 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...:0 Message-ID: <agje7m$fhe$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  , In article <3D2CB74B.4AD6095E@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:  >Nick Maclaren wrote:IC >> can hide it.  And the IA-64 architecture is the most complicatedt* >> I have ever seen, by a factor of three. >mM >In what way would the architecture be 3x more complex ? Shouldn't it be muchnJ >simpler since the chip doesn't have to bother with out of order execution >logic etc etc ?  C That was the theory.  All reports are that it didn't materialise insF practice.  But I was really talking about the ISA - i.e. the interface to the hardware.  G Start with the Register Stack Engine.  The register stack is controllediD by the compiled code, but is loaded and unloaded by hardware (in theC case of the McKinley, asynchronously).  This is a vast complication 9 for debugging the nastiest sort of data corruption error!t  C Originally, I disliked the idea of multiple modes, but I then foundiD that things were even more complex than I expected.  Experience withA System/370 is that modes make exception handling and cross-modulevB calls a real pain, and IA-64 is much more complex than System/370.  F Partly to alleviate the above problems, there is an incredibly complexC set of programming conventions, where even a minor breach can cause9C data corruption.  And, far, far worse, the data corruption need not B be close to the cause of the error in either location or time EVENA at the ISA level.  Ignoring the way that such things can 'travel'a before exposing themselves.t  C I have posted before some examples of the sort of way that a likelyLC human error in an application, compiler or tuned library could leadIC to problems so evil that fewer than 0.1% of programmers have a hopeeC of tracking them down.  And, yes, I do mean 0.1%.  RISC introduced xB quite a lot of such things, and experience is that people's doubtsC of the early 1980s have been confirmed with respect to that.  IA-64 @ is many times worse in this respect, and I dread the prospect of< being faced with a hard-to-locate data corruption bug on it.  M >What "gizmos" does the chip have ?  Does it rely a lot on pipelining ?  doesg5 >it have branch prediction ? out of order execution ?o  F Yes, yes, and yes.  The difference between the EPIC ISA and many olderG ones is that the latter two aspects are largely explicit - i.e. visible1; to the compiled code and, to some extent, controlled by it.k  H >Or does it rely on the compiler to funnel each instruction in the right >execution stream ?0   Effectively, yes.k  O >In other words, what are the differences between EPIC and modern RISC chips ina* >terms of how instructions are processed ?  C This is a large topic, and I am not good at explaining such things.gD Nor do I have time at present.  Many aspects were very clear (to me)B when I looked at the ISA, others were clarified by the Linux IA-64@ Kernel book, and I am sure that I have not yet found everything.  N >Is IA64 more complex because it is EPIC, or because it was made by Intel with# >lots of compromises to please HP ?c   Largely because it is EPIC.h  6 >Also, what is different between Merced and McKinley ?  B McKinley has an asynchronous Register Stack Engine.  That is a BIGB difference.  There may be other large differences, but that is the8 one that I regard as most significant to the programmer.       Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679h   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2002 08:10:34 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...s0 Message-ID: <agjehq$fm4$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  , In article <3D2CBDAF.C0490C36@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:t >Nick Maclaren wrote:.C >> fantasy.  IBM's faults were that of a large bureaucratic, poorlyoF >> communicating organisation, and the PowerPC/POWER shambles was evenE >> more impressive than HP's and Compaq's IA-64 behaviour has been toe( >> date - though not as much as Intel's. >tM >Since IBM and POWER are now one of the few options left for those forced off ? >VMS, having more insight into POWER's story would be welcomed.o  ; Little of it is now relevant, but the following summary is:e  B IBM's mainframe divisions have a reasonably common strategy, basedE on POWERx and its variations - assuming that the demise of System/3x0t8 is correct.  And that is the area you are interested in.  B IBM's PC and cluster divisions are as separate as those of anotherC company, and are currently based on Intel designs.  It is they thats? will dabble with IA-64, if any part of IBM does.  They still doeD dabble with PowerPC, but that may be ignored as a production design.  @ IBM has completely abandoned PowerPC to Motorola as a production@ chip, though it retains rights.  The chance of it being restoredB or, even more, remerged with POWERx (yes, remerged) is negligible.6 At least until and unless IBM has a palace revolution.  A All the above is a gross over-simplification, but it is importantV= not to think of IBM as a single, tightly linked organisation.      Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679j   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:15:35 +01006& From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...e* Message-ID: <3D2D3EA7.85ED62CB@kgcc.co.uk>   Douglas Siebert wrote:  * > Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes: >fO > >For Mako (PA8800) their estimating SPECint 900 & 1000 for FP, compiler gainsaN > >could well take I2 past 900 SPECint by the time Mako ships, the FP score is > >way down on I2. >hF > I'm quite surprised the FP is so low, given that my understanding isH > that the PA-8800 will use the McKinley bus instead of the HP's ancientG > Runway bus.  McKinley bus is 6.4GB/s, Runway was doubled to 1.9GB/s ao  G > few years ago, but can only realize about 70% of its peak under ideal3G > conditions, so it is really more like 1.5GB/s.  I never got STREAM toTH > even exceed 1GB/s on even a PA-8600!  That'll really help SPECfp sing,  1 For the PA8600 test which system were you using ?eG One interesting thing I discovered a few weeks ago, that I haven't seeniE in any liturature is that the PA8600 can use 32 or 64byte cache linescE depending on the system it's in. For SuperDome, KeyStone & Matterhornr@ it uses 64byte cache lines, and a 512b memory bus, for the other= systems it still uses a 32byte cache line and a skinnier bus.o   > D > since PA has been lacking for some time in the bandwidth dependant) > half of SPECfp due to the outdated bus.r >oD > Of course, HP would have reason to sandbag the Mako numbers a bit,E > since they want everyone to go for McKinley.  It is easy convincing E > the FP hungry segment of the market to do that, but their bread and0D > butter is TPC-type stuff, which is why they've always gone for theG > slower clock giant cache type of CPU.  Not the ideal for SPECint, but ? > works great for TPC.  That 32MB cache will really help there.e >s  B With the current published numbers you can't make any meaning full> comparisons between the TPC number for the I2 and PA. The only; 4way PA numbers are for the rp5470 using PA8600s at 550MHz,4> scaling that to 875MHz shows it being somewhat slower than theF 4way I2, but the database is very different, and so's the disk system.C I wonder when/if we'll see TPC-C figures for the rx5670 using HP-UX  and Oracle.    >n > <tinfoil hat>aH > One interesting thing is that I was told by a (now former) HP employeeH > that PA-8700 was testing fine at 900MHz, and a few even exceeded 1GHz.  , The paper on the website show these figures,C     http://www.cpus.hp.com/technical_references/isscc_talk_2001.pdfyK Is titled  "A 1 GHz PA-RISC Processor (ISSCC 2001 conference presentation)"R; The newer PA8700+ has a new internal name, but I don't know- what the differences are.h   > G > I was quite surprised it was released at only 750MHz.  Now the "+" is:J > released, at just under the magic 900MHz number.  Was it a new stepping,E > or was it being kept down until McKinley's performance numbers weres. > known to avoid hurting HP's migration story? > </tinfoil hat> >l > --J > Douglas Siebert                          dsiebert@excisethis.khamsin.net >,L > A good friend will help you move, a true friend will help you move a body.   Cheers   Ken2   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2002 08:16:11 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...i0 Message-ID: <agjesb$g1j$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  . In article <ug65zn16ip.fsf@panda.mostang.com>,6 David Mosberger-Tang  <David.Mosberger@acm.org> wrote: >yG >  >>  That would be news to me.  Note that the highest reported SPECfpiG >  >> number is precisely for Linux (which is a first in and of itself,s >eF >  Nick> Is it just?  You mean the 1365?  That is MOST interesting, if >  Nick> I have understood you.n > ) >A fair amount of detail can be found at:  >dI > http://www.hp.com/products1/itanium/infolibrary/pdfs/6004_wp_070302.pdfe >eE >On page 8, it shows SPECfp for different platforms.  The 1356 SPECfptD >number is for Linux with the Intel compiler on a zx1-based machine.   Thanks very much!t  @ >  >> believe).  Also, PNL seems to be quite happy with Linux on >  >> Itanium 2: >  >> X >  >> http://www.emsl.pnl.gov:2080/capabs/mscf/?/capabs/mscf/hardware/results_hpcs2.html >2B >  Nick> Hmm.  The abstract refers to getting 96% of peak on a keyF >  Nick> kernel (a matrix multiply).  Sorry, but that is NOT relevant.G >  Nick> Firstly, matrix multiply is trivial to optimise.  Secondly, iftG >  Nick> competently coded, it will be dominated by calls to hand-codeddG >  Nick> DGEMM or ZGEMM anyway.  I don't have time to look at the papere >  Nick> now, but will later.r >tF >It is relevant.  The claim was that lack of fp performance would make> >Linux unsuitable for fp-heavy number crunching.  PNL is doingD >precisely that.  And while hand-optimized routines certainly play aG >role, PNL most likely would not have bought an Linux Itanium 2 clusters% >without a high-performance compiler.a  B No, it was NOT.  Or, at least I did not make that claim.  It wouldA be stupid, for a variety of good reasons.  That doesn't mean thatcC I am convinced that it IA-64 Linux will be suitable for such a use,., but the issue isn't the lack of peak GFlops.  H The claim that I made was that the Spec figures (and, most particularly,C the SpecInt) figures were heavily affected by both the compiler andrC chipset.  HP have said so in public, for heaven's sake!  And, sinceiD the compiler that produces the high SpecInt figures is not availableD under Linux, it is NOT reasonable to claim that the figure indicates the performance of IA-64 Linux.d     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 3346792   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:21:20 +0100i& From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...r* Message-ID: <3D2D4000.40D5D13E@kgcc.co.uk>   Nick Maclaren wrote:  , > In article <3D2C9F9D.BAD6430D@kgcc.co.uk>,* > Ken Green  <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> wrote: > >Nick Maclaren wrote:t > >vI > >> No, that is NOT so.  Until fairly recently, HP was hedging its bets,TG > >> and was developing PA-RISC as actively as ever, just more quietly.- > >-G > >The origenal roadmap was altered because I1 was so late, the PA8600,s0 > >PA8800 & PA8900 were not on the origenal map. >g< > No, they weren't on the MAP, but they assuredly were under? > development!  Perhaps only in draft (i.e. on paper etc.), but B > you don't deliver a complex chip within 2 years of starting from
 > scratch. >XC > Back in 1995, many people said that Intel had shafted HP, because A > Intel could survive a seriously late Merced, but HP had stoppedy@ > PA-RISC development.  I said "Maybe but, if I were HP's CEO, IA > would be developing PA-RISC quietly in case IA-64 is delayed ori	 > flops."e >fB > Well - lo and behold! - HP announced the previously denied 8500,  ' No, PA8500 was on the origenal roadmap.c@ It was supposed to be followed by PA8700, as the swan song of PA? PA8500 was supposed to ship at about the same time as I1 (IIRC)n. and PA8700 was supposed to come out before I2.   >aG > to ship a mere 6 months after announcement.  And, shortly thereafter,-E > HP announced a complete roadmap, stretching on to the 8900.  I feelmC > that I and the previous HP CEO (whatever his name was) would havee  > got on, if we had ever met :-) >a
 > Regards, > Nick Maclaren,, > University of Cambridge Computing Service,@ > New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. > Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk1 > Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679c   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2002 08:29:20 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...a0 Message-ID: <agjfl0$gia$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  * In article <3D2D4000.40D5D13E@kgcc.co.uk>,( Ken Green  <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> wrote: >Nick Maclaren wrote:m >I- >> In article <3D2C9F9D.BAD6430D@kgcc.co.uk>,t+ >> Ken Green  <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> wrote:e >> >Nick Maclaren wrote: >> >J >> >> No, that is NOT so.  Until fairly recently, HP was hedging its bets,H >> >> and was developing PA-RISC as actively as ever, just more quietly. >> >H >> >The origenal roadmap was altered because I1 was so late, the PA8600,1 >> >PA8800 & PA8900 were not on the origenal map.  >>= >> No, they weren't on the MAP, but they assuredly were underi@ >> development!  Perhaps only in draft (i.e. on paper etc.), butC >> you don't deliver a complex chip within 2 years of starting frome >> scratch.  >>D >> Back in 1995, many people said that Intel had shafted HP, becauseB >> Intel could survive a seriously late Merced, but HP had stoppedA >> PA-RISC development.  I said "Maybe but, if I were HP's CEO, I B >> would be developing PA-RISC quietly in case IA-64 is delayed or
 >> flops." >>C >> Well - lo and behold! - HP announced the previously denied 8500,l > ( >No, PA8500 was on the origenal roadmap.A >It was supposed to be followed by PA8700, as the swan song of PA @ >PA8500 was supposed to ship at about the same time as I1 (IIRC)/ >and PA8700 was supposed to come out before I2.7   I may have slipped a number.  E But, whether it was the 8500 or 8700, it was not on the original one,n> as published to customers, back in 1994.  The original roadmap@ terminated with a chip due at about the same time as the Merced.D Round about 1997, another chip mysteriously appeared (and I grinned,C and said "I told you so!") because of the delay in the Merced.  But A THAT was the end - yes, really, cross my heart.  I still grinned.t  B And THEN the rest of the roadmap appeared, stretching indefinitely onwards.  B I haven't a clue what HP's internal roadmaps said - those were the; ones customers got shown and the online comics wrote about.s     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679m   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:57:42 +0000 (UTC)eA From: "Rupert Pigott" <dark.try-eating-this.b00ng@btinternet.com>  Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...-/ Message-ID: <agjkql$gpt$2@paris.btinternet.com>3  5 "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message:* news:agje7m$fhe$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk... [SNIP]E > I have posted before some examples of the sort of way that a likely-E > human error in an application, compiler or tuned library could lead E > to problems so evil that fewer than 0.1% of programmers have a hopeuD > of tracking them down.  And, yes, I do mean 0.1%.  RISC introducedD > quite a lot of such things, and experience is that people's doubtsE > of the early 1980s have been confirmed with respect to that.  IA-64RB > is many times worse in this respect, and I dread the prospect of> > being faced with a hard-to-locate data corruption bug on it.  F I don't have your long-term perspective on this Nick, but I'd stronglyG disagree about the RISC architectures introducing lots of gotchas. I'llrD grant you the delay slot thing - seemed like a pretty silly thing toD do given the small returns. If anything the reduction in instructionE count, elimination of addressing modes and the drive towards easy-to-h? hardwire instructions seemed to *reduce* the number of gotchas.s   Cheers,  Rupert   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:22:45 +0000 (UTC)iA From: "Rupert Pigott" <dark.try-eating-this.b00ng@btinternet.com>y Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... 1 Message-ID: <agjm9j$ae8$1@knossos.btinternet.com>l  5 "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in messagee* news:agjehq$fm4$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk... [SNIP]B > IBM has completely abandoned PowerPC to Motorola as a productionB > chip, though it retains rights.  The chance of it being restoredD > or, even more, remerged with POWERx (yes, remerged) is negligible.8 > At least until and unless IBM has a palace revolution.  @ Whoa... You come across as saying IBM don't build PowerPC chips,@ which would be very very very wrong. I would hazard a guess that? IBM use PPCs in their products, although they might not be end-t user visible per se.  B As it happens my quest for a lower power alternative to the PC has5 turned towards a motherboard based on the IBM 750CXe.n   Cheers,v Rupert   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:45:24 GMTo/ From: Andrew Reilly <andrew@gurney.reilly.home>c Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...cA Message-ID: <odeX8.427082$o66.1156584@news-server.bigpond.net.au>   8 On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:45:29 +1000, Nick Maclaren wrote:D > It is unclear, to put it mildly.  Given the amount of the internalG > design exposed by the architecture (far more than even RISC), I can't F > see that much radical chip redesign can be done without incompatibleH > changes to the architecture (i.e. ISA).  But I may be suffering from a > failure of imagination.h  E What if architecture compatability isn't a big concern?  It certainlydD doesn't worry Transmetta.  It's not as though there's a lot of IA-64G legacy code.  Java and .NET and dynamic ia-32 translation are breathingtF down everyone's necks.  The Linux community already doesn't care about4 architecture compatibility: they've got source code.  G VLIW machines have always eschewed instruction set compatability in the F past.  What are the odds that that hasn't changed as much as Intel was suggesting?r   -- Andrew   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:19:24 +0100dU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>s Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...l0 Message-ID: <agjt4d$8t3$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   konabear wrote:o  J > IMHO the TEL part of Wintel needs to get to 64 bits.  MS is doubling itsI > memory requirements every major release.  It's already in the 128-256MBmL > range.  That's only a couple of notches below 4 GB limit of 32 bits.  I'veG > already seen motherboards saying they support 4 GB of main memory but K > because I/O device buffers consume space that the system will only reporte0 > 3.2-3.8 GB of memory.  Sounds like a VAX 7000! >     @ Akk, you don't need a 64 bit processor to support more than 4 GBB of memory, trust me on this one or alternatively look at a sequent	 brochure.3  C You do need to have a >32 bit addressing to be able to address more4) than 4 GB, but that's not the issue here.-  E In fact there are allready a number of PC vendors that supply systemsc; that support >4GB of memory and also run windows2000 or NT.$   Regardsu Andrew Harrison     K > If MS is going to let PCs get into video editting in a major way, they'rerI > going to need GBs of memory for the editors and thus more than 32 bits.  > L > The fact that Windows needs to go there means there will be a major market0 > for 64 bit chips.  Will IA-64 be the solution? >  > Todd> > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message; > news:CFBW8.337959$6m5.348722@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...p > 7 >>"Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in messagen, >>news:agenat$gsj$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk... >>: >>>In article <tRAW8.13228$K_4.329460@twister1.libero.it>,- >>>"Alberto" <uapalbertobu@libero.it> writes:r >>>|>bJ >>>|> > Well, McKinley may be announced, but there is little evidence thatB >>>|> > HP are backing up their fine words with buttered parsnips. >>>|> >uE >>>|> > HP's "buy online" for the USA has only the zx2000 (plus its 6r >>>y > Merced > H >>>|> > configurations) and says "There is no stock currently available" >>>  > fori >  >>>|> > all of them. >>>|> >aH >>>|> > Neither the zx2000 nor the zx6000 are in HP's UK list yet.  And, >>>C > yes, > , >>>|> > we are a serious potential customer! >>>|> >cG >>>|> > If anyone manages to buy one using a normal mechanism, I shouldeH >>>|> > appreciate hearing what, for delivery when and in which country. >>>|>l >>>|> You have too hurry :-).p >>>a >>>Perhaps :-) >>>t4 >>>|> Itanic performs very well now, but 2 years are; >>>|> necessary to penetrate a full of difficulties market.a >>>gC >>>Considering that we have been getting an earful of how wonderful2D >>>the imminent IA-64 systems will be for over 5 years now, I am notC >>>sympathetic.  More seriously, this is IA-64's last chance; if it 6 >>>isn't established within 12-18 months, it will die. >>>u >>>u& >>Sounds like a reasonable assessment. >> >> >> >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:58:30 GMTo' From: alexc@world.std.com (Alex Colvin)e Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...f& Message-ID: <Gz3DpJ.57B@world.std.com>  L >>         Exactly.  You can cook a benchmark to make an UltraSparc III look@ >>         fast too, i.e. art.  Hats off to their compiler team.  O >But definitelt hats off to the compiler guys. Since the benchmark result stilleF >stands I assume none of the competitor have shown the optomisation toL >be art specific. Also no one else seems to have managed to pull of the same >trick yet.o  ; any information or unsupported rumors on what the trick is?    -- e
 	mac the nafe   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:20:12 +0100cU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>h Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...s0 Message-ID: <agk7nd$c1u$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:   >  >  > Rob Young wrote: > 8 >> In article <3D2BE887.F2DFEBBF@kgcc.co.uk>, Ken Green ! >> <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes:c >> >>H >>> Then let it die as a comodity and let HP have it back as propritory  >>> chip, at thatnE >>> point all the cost constrains are out of the window and they can o >>> afford to putsK >>> nice big caches back on the thing, PA8800 has a 32MB L2 cache, McKinley.! >>> has to make do with a 3MB L3.h >>>  >>>n >>H >>     You make it sound as if a smaller on-chip cache is somewhat of a H >>     handicap.  Hint: name a benchmark *PA8700* beats Itanium II at.  J >>     Second challenge, which benchmark (will there be one?) will PA8800 ) >>     lead Madison (aka Itanium III) at?t >> >  > ( > SPECintrate and fprate. Rather easily. > B > PA8800 will be available before Itanium III and probably will be: > available in large systems from HP before Itanium II is. > J > 8800 performance estimates from HP suggest that it will be substantially9 > faster on FP than Itanium II and faster on Int as well.  >     B Woops my mistake its performance estimates are a bit slower on FP.  @ So thats faster on int, slower on fp, guess which one will be of* interest to most large SuperDome custies ?   Regardst Andrew Harrison0     > H >>     HP isn't moving to slower performance... a few may believe it butC >>     the numbers just aren't there (if they are, please show us).y >> >  > F > If HP deliver PA8800 on time and Itanium II in large servers on timeA > then HP's customers for machines with more than 4 CPU's will bedD > being asked to take a drop in performance on a per CPU basis using+ > SPECint/fp to move from PA to Itanium II.s > 	 > Regardsi > Andrew Harrisona >    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2002 15:59:03 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...i0 Message-ID: <agka07$ab7$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  \ In article <3D2DA598.BAD00E9A@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: |> Nick Maclaren wrote:aE |> > IBM has completely abandoned PowerPC to Motorola as a productionJE |> > chip, though it retains rights.  The chance of it being restored:G |> > or, even more, remerged with POWERx (yes, remerged) is negligible.>; |> > At least until and unless IBM has a palace revolution.b |> -Q |> What is the advantage to Apple to continue to use PowerPC instead of migratingt
 |> to Power ?  |> tN |> Is it politics (buy from moto instead of buying from IBM), or a question of
 |> costs ?  C Dunno.  But, given the approach taken by the POWER4 people, I doubt A that it is an entirely appropriate chip for a low-end desktop and  fliptop like Apple.p  M |> If Apple decided to migrate to Power, could motorola fab them for Apple oneC |> behalf of IBM, or would Apple have to buy them direct from IBM ?e  A Dunno.  PowerPC is joint IBM/Motorola, rather like IA-64 is jointn@ HP/Intel, but I don't know if Motorola has a licence for POWER4.A But, certainly, Apple is not a large enough business for Motorolan. to want to tool up for a chip for Apple alone.  M |> Does IBM consider Power to be "proprietary" and not wanting competitors tonQ |> benefit from the chip's power, or would it prefer to see Power adopted by moreNJ |> and more people ? (allowing its development costs to be lower per chip)  # Dunno.  Knowing IBM, probably both.t     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679L   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:14:01 GMTt' From: alexc@world.std.com (Alex Colvin)e Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...i& Message-ID: <Gz3EFD.H3n@world.std.com>  A >Akk, you don't need a 64 bit processor to support more than 4 GBNC >of memory, trust me on this one or alternatively look at a sequentr
 >brochure.  = sure, you can go with TINY/COMPACT/MEDIUM/HUGE memory models.I but it's no way to live.  , aren't "near" and "far" still reserved in C?   -- k
 	mac the naf    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:20:45 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>c Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...a? Message-ID: <wfiX8.319236$R61.280635@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>a  3 "Ken Green" <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> wrote in messagen$ news:3D2D9FB0.68F92C39@kgcc.co.uk... > Rob Young wrote: >c8 > > In article <3D2D8E15.35DFD3D4@kgcc.co.uk>, Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes: > >o > > > E > > > AFAIK HP isn't making any public comittments as to when I2 will.K > > > be available in larger boxes, so I can't comment on bigger than 4 way  > > > boxes. > > >- > >-5 > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/26097.html  > > J > > Mark Hudson, worldwide marketing manager for HP's Business Systems andL > > Technology Organization, says that the Pinnacles chipset will scale from 8 toK > > 64 processors and that it will debut with the Madison Itanium chip, dueoI > > sometime in 2003. Eventually, the Pinnacles chipset will scale to 128 G > > processors, says Hudson, but it is unclear if that will happen whene Intel crams D > > more Itanium cores on a single chip or if HP will expand the SMP
 functionality0F > > of the Pinnacles chipset to literally support 128 distinct Itanium processors.  > >e' > >                                 Robn >iL > Thanks, I'd forgotten that artical. I hadn't wanted to say that the biggerG > systems were waiting for I3 without some prior public annoucement anddK > I couldn't remember what the current state of play was for the mid-range.M >e  L This seems to be the current state of play. New McKinley boxes will be 1P toE 4P. Want larger? You'll have to upgrade an existing Itanium box, or adH Superdome. Looks like it'll be a year before the big McKinley iron comesJ out. Note that CPQ's 32-way McKinley-Inside "Cyclone" box has gone the way of Tornado and Typhoon.   L Probably no big deal... customers are likely to do early adoption on smallerK systems. Such systems will be just the ticket for initial apps development.e   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2002 16:35:35 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...d0 Message-ID: <agkc4n$bu1$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  ? In article <wfiX8.319236$R61.280635@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,c3 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:  |>  O |> This seems to be the current state of play. New McKinley boxes will be 1P to.H |> 4P. Want larger? You'll have to upgrade an existing Itanium box, or aK |> Superdome. Looks like it'll be a year before the big McKinley iron comesiM |> out. Note that CPQ's 32-way McKinley-Inside "Cyclone" box has gone the wayu |> of Tornado and Typhoon.  B I don't know what SGI's McKinley plans are - but they could be outA before then.  It is pretty unlikely that they will be relevant toD VMS people, though :-)  O |> Probably no big deal... customers are likely to do early adoption on smallertN |> systems. Such systems will be just the ticket for initial apps development.  3 Except for serious, scalable OpenMP programmers :-(      Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679e   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:39:52 +0000 (UTC)l/ From: mccalpin@gmp246.austin.ibm.com (McCalpin)t Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...e1 Message-ID: <agkcco$gv4$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>t  , In article <3D2DA598.BAD00E9A@videotron.ca>,/ JF Mezei  <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:y >Nick Maclaren wrote:C8 >> IBM has completely abandoned PowerPC to Motorola as a? >> production chip, though it retains rights.  The chance of itn; >> being restored or, even more, remerged with POWERx (yes,t@ >> remerged) is negligible.  At least until and unless IBM has a >> palace revolution.  >8: >What is the advantage to Apple to continue to use PowerPC  >instead of migrating to Power ?  8 Please note that the old distinction between "POWER" and> "PowerPC" is no longer operative.  IBM's POWER3, RS64, POWER4,: and subsequent processors all implement the 64-bit PowerPC; architecture (of which the 32-bit PowerPC architecture is aM> subset).  The RS64 and POWER4 (and following) processors also ; support the 64-bit PowerPC AS architecture, which includes  ; some additional stuff to make the processor work in iSeriesy (formerly AS/400) systems.  7 IBM still manufactures 32-bit PowerPC chips, and still e9 ships 32-bit PowerPC chips in some older systems -- e.g.,o( the RS/6000 B50 and the RS/6000 43P-150. -- t9 John D. McCalpin, Ph.D.           mccalpin@austin.ibm.comiF Senior Technical Staff Member     IBM POWER Microprocessor Development-     "I am willing to make mistakes as long as.1      someone else is willing to learn from them."    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:09:44 GMT ) From: hoh@invalid.invalid (Goran Larsson)r Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...0# Message-ID: <Gz3H08.Gu5@approve.se>K  O In article <Gz3EFD.H3n@world.std.com>, Alex Colvin <alexc@world.std.com> wrote:n  . > aren't "near" and "far" still reserved in C?  C No. The words "near" and "far" has never been reserved words in any D C standard and is free for use by any user code. They have been usedC in C compilers from a company that expects their own software to behE what defines standards, but so far they have failed to get "near" and. "far" into any C standard.   -- n* Gran Larsson     http://www.mitt-eget.com   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jul 2002 17:44:29 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...c0 Message-ID: <agkg5t$f0i$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  1 In article <agkcco$gv4$1@ausnews.austin.ibm.com>,'1 mccalpin@gmp246.austin.ibm.com (McCalpin) writes:  |> t; |> Please note that the old distinction between "POWER" andsA |> "PowerPC" is no longer operative.  IBM's POWER3, RS64, POWER4,p= |> and subsequent processors all implement the 64-bit PowerPCh> |> architecture (of which the 32-bit PowerPC architecture is aA |> subset).  The RS64 and POWER4 (and following) processors also  > |> support the 64-bit PowerPC AS architecture, which includes > |> some additional stuff to make the processor work in iSeries |> (formerly AS/400) systems.d |> r: |> IBM still manufactures 32-bit PowerPC chips, and still < |> ships 32-bit PowerPC chips in some older systems -- e.g.,+ |> the RS/6000 B50 and the RS/6000 43P-150.e  > Having been correctly taken to task by Rupert Pigott for being> obscure, I just want to say that my point wasn't the technical> differences between POWERx and PowerPC.  It was whether IBM is@ likely to push POWERx forward as a general-purpose, bulk market,= desktop, fliptop and small server CPU, of the sort that wouldt< compete with McKinley, either on its own or as a supplier to OEMs.p  ? Now, we know that was IBM's plans back in the days of the greatt@ PowerPC project, and I am someone who regrets that the marketing> people knackered that project.  But we also know that IBM thenA took a formal and public decision to abandon the PowerPC for that @ purpose, and effectively took a decision to move the POWERx awayB from the bulk market.  As far as I know those decisions have never2 been reversed, though there are alternative views:  ( http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4266  > If there is anything that you can say on this matter, I should@ be most interested.  As you know, if I had any real information,> I couldn't post.  The issue isn't whether IBM could target the6 POWERx at the bulk market, but whether IBM intends to.     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 02:18:11 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <3D2D2318.1388481D@videotron.ca>   David Froble wrote:uP > For anyone who has ever been a parent, what response to a positive action by a > child works better?i  M You can tell the child "good boy", but it doesn't mean that you feel that thew- child won't revert to being a child later on.-  M So it os OK to tell Sue that we have noticed the news releases. But too early ; to conclude that HP has changed its philosophy towards VMS.m   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:43:27 GMTt* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsA Message-ID: <jO9X8.21073$iB1.1401879@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>a  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2CF8F3.A8AF3BC2@videotron.ca... > Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:I >  > Also no mention of VMS and NSK. So, when HP does not want to mentionn it,s. > > why do you expect INTEL to want to do it ? >BL > Since VMS won't be available commercially on IA64 for at least 2 years, it isH > perfectly reasonable for it not to be mentioned in a list of currently > available products.   J Except that that was *not* a list limited to currently-available products:H it was a list of products 'being ported', and while HP-UX may already beK there none of the Windows ports (I don't know about the Linux ones) are yet F complete (the closest they come is the single 'Limited Edition' server& product shipped last year for Merced).   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:47:03 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsA Message-ID: <HR9X8.78934$Im2.3491928@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>o  5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagen& news:3D2D0781.5080905@tsoft-inc.com...   ...c  D > I'm not arguing with the skepticism.  It has real reason to exist. However: >  >eK > For anyone who has ever been a parent, what response to a positive action3 by a > child works better?> >lB > 1) Praise for the positive action, and encouragement to do more. >y > or >nK > 2) Chastisement for not doing even better, and faint or no praise for thei > positive action.  H If the people running HP are children, you really might want to consider1 finding a company running by adults to depend on.f  L As for praise and encouragement, that was tried during the 'VMS renaissance'J two years ago.  What it elicited was the Alphacide less than a year later.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:22:15 +0100s% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>a4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts8 Message-ID: <40gqiuc946b08shrqr6fg8kfiklmiqoinn@4ax.com>  , On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:18:11 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:    >Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:,L > > Also no mention of VMS and NSK. So, when HP does not want to mention it,- >> why do you expect INTEL to want to do it ?g > N >Since VMS won't be available commercially on IA64 for at least 2 years, it isG >perfectly reasonable for it not to be mentioned in a list of currentlyn >available products.  @ I repeat: The ad lists operating systems being ported. Not those currently available.  N >It would be OK for Intel to list other OS that are planned to go to IA64, and$ >in that list, VMS should be listed.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:21:13 +0100.% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts8 Message-ID: <enfqiu4ieiq3v4g777cufm41hie5rasof1@4ax.com>  , On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:59:20 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:      > L >If The list you provided mentioned some systems that are not yet available,. >then VMS and NSK should have been listed too.   The ad says:A  "Providers developing Intel Itanium 2 processor-based solutions:r Operating Systems:"c  D Then goes on to list those I mentioned previously, It is clear to me$ NSK and VMS should have been listed. -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:48:04 +0100e% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>@4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts8 Message-ID: <g3hqius5rrb345dtj4upodm7n4km221ss9@4ax.com>  , On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:50:19 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:    >>O >But HP must understand that VMS customers have been lied to so many times that O >it takes time to rebuild trust and during that time, it is HP's responsability \ >to be patient before customers come to believe this is a sincere and permanent improvement.  E From a meeting I've had I'm sure they understand it. After all HP hastF been attempting to pick up business for HP-UX from VMS sites for many,D many years. Part of their sales pitch was roughly along the lines ofE "VMS is/was great but Digital/Compaq neglected it and you can't trustlC them." Now these same guys own VMS. What do they say/do now? It's aa hard question and they know it.w  F I likely still have a copy of an HP internal marketing document givingD guidelines for handling the Compaq/Digital merger. In big letters onA the front page it said "d|ub|i|o|u|s" (in the d|i|g|i|t|a|l stylePC obviously). That was to be the first thing HP sales said concerninge the future of VMS.  > Fascinatingly I got a copy of this HP internal document from a> Digital/Compaq employee. So they knew about it but did little.   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:05:22 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <3D2DACBF.E9EC6B7C@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:H >    Why?  We've just seen HP do a much better job of promoting VMS that3 >    Compaq ever did, or DEC in its last few years.r  N Sorry, but even under Compaq, there had been press releases. And when 7.2 cameJ out with the proprietarized Apache for VMS, there was also much visibility
 about it.   N Compaw had not released newsletters telling customers that it expected them toN migrate to HP-UX over time, later corrected to wanting to help those custoemrs who chose to migrate to HP-UX.  K Yes, Compaq was guilty of statements that Windows would rule the world, buthI then again Carly is equally guilty of such statements, although since theoK merger, she seems to have toned down her pro-wintel stance, perhaps because L she has realised the mess she got herself into and that the only way out wasH to focus on the real enterprise systems, the ones that generate profits.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:16:19 GMTt# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>s4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsF Message-ID: <nbiX8.2061$pxc.1902@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2DACBF.E9EC6B7C@videotron.ca... > I > Yes, Compaq was guilty of statements that Windows would rule the world,l butIK > then again Carly is equally guilty of such statements, although since thejE > merger, she seems to have toned down her pro-wintel stance, perhapsn becauseoJ > she has realised the mess she got herself into and that the only way out waseJ > to focus on the real enterprise systems, the ones that generate profits.  L Do you really think she realizes this? Why only now, when Walter et al. were& saying the same things last September?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:17:32 GMTv1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>w4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <wciX8.25103$Jp.52303@rwcrnsc53>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message? news:aqhX8.1880$pxc.738@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...a > 4 > "Alan Greig" <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote in message4 > news:g3hqius5rrb345dtj4upodm7n4km221ss9@4ax.com...0 > > On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:50:19 -0400, JF Mezei) > > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:. > >  > > > H > > >But HP must understand that VMS customers have been lied to so many timese > thatD > > >it takes time to rebuild trust and during that time, it is HP's > responsabilityI > > >to be patient before customers come to believe this is a sincere andn > permanent improvement. > > I > > From a meeting I've had I'm sure they understand it. After all HP has J > > been attempting to pick up business for HP-UX from VMS sites for many,H > > many years. Part of their sales pitch was roughly along the lines ofI > > "VMS is/was great but Digital/Compaq neglected it and you can't trustnG > > them." Now these same guys own VMS. What do they say/do now? It's at# > > hard question and they know it.K >G >nK > Short of standing up in a VERY public way to dispell *any* doubt, HP willnL > continue to be severely questioned on its commitment to VMS. Certainly theF > act of NOT actively advertising, selling, and marketing VMS to *new*) > accounts speaks volumes in that regard.0 >h  B Yep, it would be nice for Ms. Fiorina to come out with a statementH reflecting the sentiments you have articulated. Dunno how much push-back" you'll get on the "new customers."  E It might be worth writing a "Dear Carly" letter, which can be done by B visiting http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/email/fiorina/index.htm  L I would take a positive, not negative approach... thank HPQ for making stepsI in the right direction, and respectfully suggesting additional steps thateI might benefit the cause. A few hundred letters of this ilk might get some F attention... far more attention that commentary in c.o.v. is likely to2 elicit. My opinion only, and well worth the price.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:21:53 +0100 U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>y4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)0 Message-ID: <agjpoi$7rq$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   konabear wrote:e  % > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"n@ > <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message, > news:agbl8o$ffk$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... > <snip> > ; >>So I would doubt that many OpenVMS servers are being usedn6 >>as big cross-platform consolidation platforms. In my. >>experience its is normally a donor platform. >> > <snip> > I > Personally, I'd say you're in the wrong business if YOUR experience was J > anything but.  YOUR experience is working where SUN succedes in making aN > sale.  YOUR experience would not be expected to include sites were SUN fails > to make a sale.X >     > Really, I work for customers who have a multi-vendor strategy,< in two of the consolidation projects Compaq was asked to bid< a consolidation solution, the whole estate which in one case? was AIX, DYNIX, HP-UX, Solaris, Tru64, OpenVMS, WinNT and OS400r1 and in the other AIX, Solaris, HP-UX and OpenVMS.   A In both cases they bid a Tru64 based solution, using 8400/GS140's-> in a cluster rather than OpenVMS, the reason in both cases for? not proposing OpenVMS, despite the fact that OpenVMS clustering = was at the time vastly superior to Tru64 was the availabilitye of software on OpenVMS.h  = In both cases the Compaq solution was not chosen for cost and 
 risk reasons.o  A In two of the other major consolidations I have worked on OpenVMSi@ was being used in the client but Compaq was not asked to bid for the consolidation project.   Regards, Andrew Harrisona   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:08:00 +01002U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>e4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)0 Message-ID: <agjsf1$8m1$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Main, Kerry wrote:  
 > Andrew - > I > <<< I have been responsible for OPS clusters on Solaris which are based H > on OPS to provide very high reliability, not scalability no tuning for> > it but then it wasn't the reason that OPS was being used.>>> > - > Let me guess .. Pre Oracle 8.1.x .. Right ?t > J > Re : Oracle OPS (RAC) not being used for scalability .. You obviously doD > not have much expereince with 8.1.7 or higher with OPS / RAC. EvenJ > Oracle types with expereience dating back pre 8.1.x have the same issuesC > ie. lack of scalability etc. because they have not used the newero > versions.l >     E No I have experience of both, something I rather doubt you have givenoE the very recent availability of 9i on OpenVMS. The 70% number is whatmC Oracle consultants that I have delt with on 9i RAC put as being the $ upper bound for scalability for RAC.  C Of course you have also forgotten the other rule of consolidations,C> its better to consolidate on like version DBMS's so if the oldF platform is running 8.1.6/8.0.5 etc then its better to consolidated to8 8.1.6 or whatever the version is on the target platform.    I > I do know of a particular OpenVMS Oracle site today that has approx 2506E > HW RAID volumes (approx 8-900 physical disks) with 4 GS60's 8.1.7.xb > w/OPS. >     @ Why would this be interesting, you need to provide multi-node vs> single node scalability numbers rather than a marketing bullet% point like the one you have provided.-  = I can pull out loads of OPS examples on Sun's where they have C concentrated on using OPS for availability rather than performance.e    G > <<< There is an Oracle 8i DBA course or a 9i course and then once yousJ > have done that if you want to administer a OPS or RAC cluster there is a& > 8i OPS course or a 9i RAC course.<<< > H > Course, the alternative is to read the manual, talk to others who have: > done it etc, but perhaps these are out of date concepts? >   ; You guys are wonderfull, between you and jlsue you give thef< impression that you spend your time proposing solutions that; your ISV partners won't support, being delivered by a bunch/; of consultants with OPS or Oracle for Dummies in their back  pockets.  : I am sure that isn't really the case and I am sure that in8 your haste to produce a justification for you claims you" have abandoned normal HP practice.  = Most of the clients I deal with require their DBA's to eitherm? be certified or to be able to demostrate a proven track record.n  < Most people would be very very uncomfortable if they thought; that their HA OPS cluster was being managed by someone witha9 not training and no experience. Many people would also be : amazed to hear that this is apparently the normal practice; if you are in HP consulting, somehow I very much doubt that69 this is in fact your corporations policy so we can assumei5 that it was a rush of blood to the head on your part.(  6 Incedentally you also in effect just lost the argument5 since the gist of your suggestion is that you do neede4 to plan more for a clustered DBMS configuration even9 if you yourself don't see the need for people to actuallya be trained.y   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2002 05:44:21 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a7 Subject: Re: OpenSSL and certificates concept questions 3 Message-ID: <UINbR7c6EbZQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  W In article <3D2D1733.3000102@speakeasy.net>, Rich Jordan <duodec@speakeasy.net> writes:o > Larry Kilgallen wrote:i >> In article <cc5619f2.0207101500.14cde0fe@posting.google.com>, jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) writes:  >> e >>  # >>>We are then to do the following:tD >>>     verify the certificate ends with the domain name of the siteH >>>     verify the certificate URL matches the URL returned in the first >>>get1 >>>     verify the certificate is from a valid CAA- >>>     verify the certificate is not expiredn- >>>     verify the certificate is not revoked  >> p >> wC >> Verify the certificate is authorized for the sort of transactiona >> for which you are using it. >  > Ok.  How? :)  > In X.509 terminology, examine the Key usage field, which listsF purposes such as Digital Signature, non-repudiation, key encipherment,F data enciperment, key agreement, key certificate signing, CRL signing,  encipher only and decipher only.  H > Apparently the method for 'getting the certificate info' is different H > from the method for 'getting the URL page data'.  cURL doesn't return K > it, though if you use verbose (effectively a debug mode) it displays the eJ > needed info (but doesn't return it in usable fashion short of capturing I > sys$output/sys$error to a file).  I can see the info, it tells me that  F > the first, second, and fourth items are valid, and I can assume the D > third is (it'll be verisign or thawte).  How do you verify that a K > certificate is not revoked?  That is after doing whatever it is you need lA > to do to get the relevant certificate info in a usable fashion?w  C I don't know this particular toolset, but the X.509 standard itselfpE lists the steps required for useful processing.  In the 1997 standard E look at section 12.4.3 Certification Path Processing Procedure.  I do:C not know if they have kept the same section numbering in subsequent3 versions of the standard..   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:36:51 GMTa# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>c  Subject: Re: OpenVMS AmbassadorsC Message-ID: <DsbX8.139$pxc.72@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>t  > "Sue Skonetski" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote in message7 news:857e9e41.0207101918.68b3e393@posting.google.com...lD > There have been some recent postings about the OpenVMS Ambassadors4 > Program and I just wanted to set matters straight. >tE > I manage the OpenVMS Ambassadors program, it is the best part of mytH > job and I feel that I am an authority on the program since I have beenE > running it for the last 7 years.  I am proud of the Ambassadors andeF > the program, it has been used as a bench mark by Digital, Compaq andG > now hp, and it is 15 years old.  We do have original members still in- > the program. >e> > There are 205 OpenVMS Ambassadors from 33 countries. OpenVMSC > Ambassadors are hp internal people only and they are master levele= > folks.   To become an Ambassador requires that an extensiveo? > application be filled out and a number of references provided3D > including another Ambassador.  If any one of the references do notG > agree I do not accept the person.  If they do not have their managerseE > approval I do not accept, if they are not master level experts I do G > not accept, and if their application is not filled out correctly I dou > not accept them. >y > I regularly refuse aplicants.  > # > OpenVMS Ambassadors you may know.a > G > Kerry Main, John Wisniewski, Mike Kier, Dave Foddy, Kevin FitzPatricku6 > and Keith Parris now that he is back in the company. >yB > If you have questions, I am happy to answer them, but to use the8 > Ambassadors Program as rumor fodder is a waste of cpu. >l > suew    L I know that everyone who comes in contact with a VMS Ambassador is impressedI with the caliber of them, and wonders why more within HP can't be around.g  H Like I said, I hope it doesn't happen, but I have seen situations insideL many companies that were downsizing where key people have been let go simplyI because the senior exec who knew better and had to approve layoffs was onRK vacation and his deputy had to finalize the list of terminated employees bynL some arbitrary date; or because of the sheer numbers involved someone's nameJ got on the list by mistake and wasn't caught before it was too late; or inL one extreme case, because there was a grudge between two department managersH who had a particular employee who was 'shared' and this one employee wasE scoring a lot of political points within the organization for the 2nd F manager, so the employee was terminated by the 1st manager in order toC better his own 'optics' within the company. Sh*t sometimes happens.0  I No offense Sue, but when companies are in scythe mode, sometimes the left L hand doesn't know what the right hand does....once a pink slip is generated,L even by mistake, that employee is history.  Sometimes even if the mistake isK 'rectified', the affected employee is so p*ssed by the event that no amountsL of fixing can make it 'right' in their eyes, so they walk even after all the 'mea culpa's'.  L However, if VMS is not marketed and sold to *new* customers (and I know thatH you have seen all the discussion and HP memo's about that), one can haveH just about any title or job function one could name in the VMS group andD still be 'at risk' as the revenue, profitability, and installed base	 declines.i   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2002 04:20:01 -0700- From: tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell)@  Subject: Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors= Message-ID: <9f261edc.0207110319.544950c8@posting.google.com>   v susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) wrote in message news:<857e9e41.0207101918.68b3e393@posting.google.com>...   <snip>  # > OpenVMS Ambassadors you may know.t > G > Kerry Main, John Wisniewski, Mike Kier, Dave Foddy, Kevin FitzPatrick 6 > and Keith Parris now that he is back in the company.   <snip>   Hi Sue,l  D Do the OpenVMS Ambassadors ever have any interaction with any of the3 OpenVMS support staff in the coutries they work in?o  E This is a leading question (former Compaq EMEA OpenVMS support personi here).   Rgds.r   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2002 06:21:58 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e  Subject: Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors3 Message-ID: <FPf7OmMrnCNa@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  i In article <DsbX8.139$pxc.72@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:t  K > No offense Sue, but when companies are in scythe mode, sometimes the left N > hand doesn't know what the right hand does....once a pink slip is generated,, > even by mistake, that employee is history.  J I have knowledge of a case where "scythe mode" tangled with Sue Skonetski.I In that situation "scythe mode" lost and the VMS Ambassadors Program won.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:38:23 -0400B' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>r  Subject: RE: OpenVMS AmbassadorsT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D92B2@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   G'day Chris,  H >>> Do the OpenVMS Ambassadors ever have any interaction with any of the6 OpenVMS support staff in the coutries they work in?<<<  F Absolutely. In fact, many of the Ambassadors are OpenVMS Support types" from Customer Services, CSC's etc.  F In addition, guest speakers at Ambassador meetings often include VP ofD Services speaker .. We have also had speakers like Michael Capellas,D Peter Blackmore etc. It is definitely a fairly high profile program.   Regardsl  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanto Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Serviceso Voice: 613-592-4660p Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: Chris Bardell [mailto:tessier-ashpool@usa.net]=20e Sent: July 11, 2002 7:20 AM- To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com-  Subject: Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors    < susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) wrote in message9 news:<857e9e41.0207101918.68b3e393@posting.google.com>...x   <snip>  # > OpenVMS Ambassadors you may know.J >=20J > Kerry Main, John Wisniewski, Mike Kier, Dave Foddy, Kevin FitzPatrick=206 > and Keith Parris now that he is back in the company.   <snip>   Hi Sue,   D Do the OpenVMS Ambassadors ever have any interaction with any of the3 OpenVMS support staff in the coutries they work in?h  E This is a leading question (former Compaq EMEA OpenVMS support persons here).   Rgds.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:57:13 -0400r5 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com>u  Subject: Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors* Message-ID: <agk9tu$d3h$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  I Actually,  the Ambassadors have their own internal web site available forh! anyone in the company to look at.   K Ambassadors programs are an hp supported program.  I say this because there + is more than one Ambassadors program in hp.J  H Folks as well as you know me, do you think that I would not make it veryK clear to everyone from Michael on down the value of the Ambassadors??  Come"H on, many have tried, many of failed to shut me up about the Ambassadors.  D And finally we have double digit percentage of new customers a year.E Corporate policy does not allow me to be any more specific that this.t   suet  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2DA6F8.B50B56A6@videotron.ca... > John Smith wrote: K > > However, if VMS is not marketed and sold to *new* customers (and I knowi thatL > > you have seen all the discussion and HP memo's about that), one can haveL > > just about any title or job function one could name in the VMS group andH > > still be 'at risk' as the revenue, profitability, and installed base
 > > declines.c >aJ > Ambassadors would be needed more than ever to retain what is left of the VMSi > customer base. >nB > The big question is whether an employee in department X would be
 officiallyH > recognized in HP's payroll system as an ambassador (special status) or whethera6 > he would be see just an an employee in department X. >lK > If only Sue has the list, then it is more likely that "an" employee wouldd beK > put on the list of redundancies since the person or computer program that  does? > that job wouldn't know that this employee has special status.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 16:28:49 GMTh+ From: "Mike Kier" <michael.kier@compaq.com>"  Subject: Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors2 Message-ID: <5niX8.29$l_6.460904@news.cpqcorp.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2DA6F8.B50B56A6@videotron.ca... > John Smith wrote: K > > However, if VMS is not marketed and sold to *new* customers (and I knows thatL > > you have seen all the discussion and HP memo's about that), one can haveL > > just about any title or job function one could name in the VMS group andH > > still be 'at risk' as the revenue, profitability, and installed base
 > > declines.e >hJ > Ambassadors would be needed more than ever to retain what is left of the VMSo > customer base. >tB > The big question is whether an employee in department X would be
 officiallyH > recognized in HP's payroll system as an ambassador (special status) or whetherN6 > he would be see just an an employee in department X. >#K > If only Sue has the list, then it is more likely that "an" employee would> beK > put on the list of redundancies since the person or computer program thats does? > that job wouldn't know that this employee has special status.a  H No, the Ambassadors aren't immune to layoffs; rather they are a bit more "resistant."  L The folks that are Ambassadors are in the program because they are competentI and effective.  This tends to make them less likely to be targeted in the F first place.  Beyond that, the VMS organization under Marcello and nowL Gorham have made it clear that they value these people and will go to bat toG retain them in the relatively few cases where field management fails tohL value them enough to keep them.  How they do that varies by circumstance but% their batting average is *very* good.a  E In general, the 200+ Ambassadors fall into three general categories -/J Sale/Sales Support, Services, and the Call Centers.  VMS isn't necessarilyI their only focus, although it is a very major one.  Folks like Ken MoreautJ are involved in sales and support in the Unix, Linux and Wintel worlds forK very large customers yet are responsible for large VMS sales - one of theiroK hallmarks is that they are consultants into HP for their customers and sellaF and support what they believe to be the best HP-and-Partner-and-customH solution for those customers  - whatever hardware/software platform thatI happens to be.  They must, however, be current and extremely competent inU VMS.  L The program in not a strictly outward-focused marketing group.  In fact, oneL of its primary purposes since its inception has been to drive customer inputH inward into engineering (and yes, into marketing and senior management -F just not as effectively) without the filtering that comes from typicalE stovepiped bureaucracies.  A previous note mentioned that some of the L presenters to the group have been "bloodied" in the meetings.  Its a regularC occurrence.  It comes from us taking the same kind of frustrations,iL suggestions, complaints, etc., that we see in this newsgroup but that we getF from our customers and partners day to day, and telling the engineers,J product  managers, market segment managers, VPs, etc., what works, doesn'tJ work, causes problems, or blocks sales for us and our partners.  It is theH first and only program that I've been involved with in 25 years with theJ company that breaks the US (and New England) centricity that DEC was proneG to.  Over half the Ambassadors are from outside North America, which is J likely reflective of not only the current VMS business but also future VMS business growth.  L We meet twice a year in Nashua.  We are at about capacity for what the localK hotel facility can provide.  In addition to seminars offered the week prior.I to the 5 day meeting, we usually begin set-up on Sunday, construct a 150+ L node LAN with server and Internet and VPN connection and then spend about 12K hours each of the first four days receiving presentations, talking with thedJ VPs and product managers, doing BoFs over lunches and in the evenings, andI tossing back a few beers in the lounge (you should have seen the night we K had about 50 of us running Charon VAX on our laptops in the bar or the timenF Jim Hibbetts from Raxco sent beer steins and laser pointers to all theI ambassadors).  Sue is the nicest slave-driver you'll ever meet and we allAI love her dearly - no one can pack an agenda tighter, I'm convinced.  Then G Friday afternoon we tear it all down and depart.  In the months between K meetings, we use VMS Notes and email to keep up to date.  I'm in ConsultinglL & Integration, not Sales, so I act as a clearinghouse for information to theB Sales and Sales Support folks in my geography and also maintain anL HP-internal web page for announcements, presentations, white papers, etc.  I8 know many of the other non-Sales Ambassadors do similar.   --	 Mike Kiero$ HP Consulting & Integration Services Cincinnati, OH, USAe michael.kier@hp.comp   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 17:22:45 GMTm# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t  Subject: Re: OpenVMS AmbassadorsE Message-ID: <F9jX8.2187$pxc.296@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>H  6 "Mike Kier" <michael.kier@compaq.com> wrote in message, news:5niX8.29$l_6.460904@news.cpqcorp.net...< > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3D2DA6F8.B50B56A6@videotron.ca... > > John Smith wrote: H > > > However, if VMS is not marketed and sold to *new* customers (and I know > thatI > > > you have seen all the discussion and HP memo's about that), one can  haveJ > > > just about any title or job function one could name in the VMS group anduJ > > > still be 'at risk' as the revenue, profitability, and installed base > > > declines.e > >nL > > Ambassadors would be needed more than ever to retain what is left of the > VMSg > > customer base. > >KD > > The big question is whether an employee in department X would be > officiallyJ > > recognized in HP's payroll system as an ambassador (special status) or	 > whetherR8 > > he would be see just an an employee in department X. > >rG > > If only Sue has the list, then it is more likely that "an" employeer would4 > beH > > put on the list of redundancies since the person or computer program that > doesA > > that job wouldn't know that this employee has special status.e >yJ > No, the Ambassadors aren't immune to layoffs; rather they are a bit more > "resistant." >aD > The folks that are Ambassadors are in the program because they are	 competenteK > and effective.  This tends to make them less likely to be targeted in thesH > first place.  Beyond that, the VMS organization under Marcello and nowK > Gorham have made it clear that they value these people and will go to bath toI > retain them in the relatively few cases where field management fails to J > value them enough to keep them.  How they do that varies by circumstance buto' > their batting average is *very* good.e >tG > In general, the 200+ Ambassadors fall into three general categories -oL > Sale/Sales Support, Services, and the Call Centers.  VMS isn't necessarilyK > their only focus, although it is a very major one.  Folks like Ken MoreaunL > are involved in sales and support in the Unix, Linux and Wintel worlds forG > very large customers yet are responsible for large VMS sales - one ofd their H > hallmarks is that they are consultants into HP for their customers and sellH > and support what they believe to be the best HP-and-Partner-and-customJ > solution for those customers  - whatever hardware/software platform thatK > happens to be.  They must, however, be current and extremely competent in0 > VMS. >iJ > The program in not a strictly outward-focused marketing group.  In fact, oneoH > of its primary purposes since its inception has been to drive customer input J > inward into engineering (and yes, into marketing and senior management -H > just not as effectively) without the filtering that comes from typicalG > stovepiped bureaucracies.  A previous note mentioned that some of thesF > presenters to the group have been "bloodied" in the meetings.  Its a regularSE > occurrence.  It comes from us taking the same kind of frustrations,9J > suggestions, complaints, etc., that we see in this newsgroup but that we gettH > from our customers and partners day to day, and telling the engineers,L > product  managers, market segment managers, VPs, etc., what works, doesn'tL > work, causes problems, or blocks sales for us and our partners.  It is theJ > first and only program that I've been involved with in 25 years with theL > company that breaks the US (and New England) centricity that DEC was proneI > to.  Over half the Ambassadors are from outside North America, which is L > likely reflective of not only the current VMS business but also future VMS > business growth. >pH > We meet twice a year in Nashua.  We are at about capacity for what the localdG > hotel facility can provide.  In addition to seminars offered the weeko prioreK > to the 5 day meeting, we usually begin set-up on Sunday, construct a 150+ K > node LAN with server and Internet and VPN connection and then spend aboutr 12I > hours each of the first four days receiving presentations, talking witho theeL > VPs and product managers, doing BoFs over lunches and in the evenings, andK > tossing back a few beers in the lounge (you should have seen the night we H > had about 50 of us running Charon VAX on our laptops in the bar or the timeH > Jim Hibbetts from Raxco sent beer steins and laser pointers to all theK > ambassadors).  Sue is the nicest slave-driver you'll ever meet and we allgK > love her dearly - no one can pack an agenda tighter, I'm convinced.  ThenwI > Friday afternoon we tear it all down and depart.  In the months between B > meetings, we use VMS Notes and email to keep up to date.  I'm in
 ConsultingJ > & Integration, not Sales, so I act as a clearinghouse for information to thesD > Sales and Sales Support folks in my geography and also maintain anK > HP-internal web page for announcements, presentations, white papers, etc.  I : > know many of the other non-Sales Ambassadors do similar.    4 Thank you for the infomative note. Much appreciated.  L Now if HP *really* decides to market VMS, perhaps you can get Intel to 'fab'J a bigger hotel for you so an ever increasing number of VMS Ambassadors can meet.   I  Hotel OpenVMS - 5-star reliability, value, and comfort. We cater to yourr every need.  :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2002 07:29:29 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)6 Subject: Quality control problems in VMS Engineering ?3 Message-ID: <ZeXFd6xo2wU+@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  K I am concerned that a VMS patch was released which appears to have not been I tested properly. Unlike the XFC issues, this is a case of a basic commandvE just not working at all. This time, it was a PPPD patch, with no datay7 integrity issues. Next time, it might be a RMS patch...   5 I would like to politely ask the following questions:a  < Are you having quality control problems in VMS Engineering ?  6 How did this _ever_ get past your testing procedures ?  G What is VMS Engineering doing about making sure that this kind of thingo doesn't happen again ?   Announcement below:t   |  aE |  TITLE: OpenVMS VMS721_PPPD-V0200 PPPDriver ALPHA 7.2-1 ECO Summary- |  -" |  New Kit Date:       04-JUN-2002# |  Modification Date:  09-JUL-2002 o7 |  Modification Type:  Kit placed on engineering hold. o |   K |  OpenVMS Remedial Kit                                                    kK |  Hold Notification                                                       eK |                                                                           K |                                                                           K |  Date: 09-JUL-2002                                                        K |                                                                          MK |  Kit Name: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PPPD-V0200--4.PCSI                          (K |  Release Date: 04-JUN-2002                                               -K |                                                                          .K |                                                                          MK |  PROBLEM STATEMENT:                                                      .K |                                                                          nK |  After the VMS721_PPPD-V0200 kit is installed, the disconnect command in eK |  the PPD utility no longer works.  Users are then left with no way to    bK |  force a line to disconnect cleanly.                                     tK |                                                                          dK |                                                                           K |  PROBLEM SYMPTOM:                                                        uK |                                                                          0K |  The PPPD = DISCONNECT TTA0 command fails to disconnect and returns an   AK |  error like this:                                                        nK |                                                                          sK |  SYSTEM> PPPD DISCONNECT TTA0:                                           ,K |  %PPPD-E-PPPCONNECTERR, error connecting to PPP device                   .K |  %SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available                           sK |  %PPPD-F-ABORT, fatal error encountered; operation terminated            CK |                                                                          :K |                                                                          iK |  WORKAROUND:                                                             eK |                                                                          AK |  None.                                                                    K |                                                                          nK |                                                                          rK |  ALTERNATIVE KIT:                                                         K |                                                                          yK |  There is no alternative kit to install.  Engineering is evaluating       K |  this issue.  Depending on results of that evaluation, this kit will     sK |  be removed from hold or a new kit issued to replace the problem kit.    2K |                                                                          jK |  *********************************************************************   c   Simon.   -- sB Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       + Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:07:44 -0400A5 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> : Subject: Re: Quality control problems in VMS Engineering ?* Message-ID: <agke0t$e62$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  H I took Fabio's message and forwarded.  I have removed the names involved) since I do not have their ok to use them.oB __________________________________________________________________  I Last October a fix was made to modile ppp_mgmt.c to keep us from matchingeF line TXA0 against TXA1. This fix was triggered by a customer who shallJ reamin namelss. We generated the fix and did the usual in house testing ofJ the fix. We passed it along the the TCP/IP folk and to the unamed customerK who said it worked. In the normal course of things this fix along with someuH others found its way into the remedial stream and eventually into a TIMA kit.  J The kits were produced and I trusted that they were tested out internally.F The made their way out to customers. Igot some mail from **** saying aH customer had found a problem and asked that the kit be placed on hold. IK also asked that the folks the original fix was made for confirm that it wasaK working. They reported that it had in fact broken the disconnect command. I.? also worked up a fix for the problem that is now in the system."  J Did we miss something yes guilty, were we sloppy, no we did all the thingsJ we had done in the past. This one slipped through the cracks it happens itK should not, but it does. This is not the first nor will it be the last TIMA1@ kit or piece of production code that goes out with a regression.    ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in message.: news:20020711131952.25171.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com... > 4 > MAy be the Engineers are too busy with the Itanium7 > portability issues .... I believe Oracle RDB team toon
 > -at Oracle.  >t4 > I am imagining the mess of a Hacker with a Itanium) > machine at home, and OpenVMS binaries !  >e	 > Regardsa >t > FC >e >  >  >c > --- Simon Clubleyn7 > <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:,6 > > I am concerned that a VMS patch was released which > > appears to have not been5 > > tested properly. Unlike the XFC issues, this is au > > case of a basic commandu5 > > just not working at all. This time, it was a PPPD  > > patch, with no datai2 > > integrity issues. Next time, it might be a RMS > > patch... > > . > > I would like to politely ask the following > > questions: > >u2 > > Are you having quality control problems in VMS > > Engineering ?  > >n8 > > How did this _ever_ get past your testing procedures > > ?a > >o8 > > What is VMS Engineering doing about making sure that > > this kind of thing > > doesn't happen again ? > >s > > Announcement below:o > >r > > |t7 > > |  TITLE: OpenVMS VMS721_PPPD-V0200 PPPDriver ALPHAe > > 7.2-1 ECO Summaryt > > |f& > > |  New Kit Date:       04-JUN-2002& > > |  Modification Date:  09-JUL-20024 > > |  Modification Type:  Kit placed on engineering	 > > hold.h > > |  > > |  OpenVMS Remedial Kit  > >  > > |  Hold Notification > >e > > |e > >t > > |t > >  > > |  Date: 09-JUL-2002 > >t > > |t > >a5 > > |  Kit Name: DEC-AXPVMS-VMS721_PPPD-V0200--4.PCSIb > >c  > > |  Release Date: 04-JUN-2002 > >* > > |o > >  > > |n > >  > > |  PROBLEM STATEMENT:n > >r > > |r > >t8 > > |  After the VMS721_PPPD-V0200 kit is installed, the > > disconnect command iny7 > > |  the PPD utility no longer works.  Users are thenk > > left with no way ton* > > |  force a line to disconnect cleanly. > >d > > |  > >s > > |e > >r > > |  PROBLEM SYMPTOM:o > >e > > |r > >S2 > > |  The PPPD = DISCONNECT TTA0 command fails to > > disconnect and returns ans > > |  error like this:p > >h > > |  > >v$ > > |  SYSTEM> PPPD DISCONNECT TTA0: > > 5 > > |  %PPPD-E-PPPCONNECTERR, error connecting to PPPa
 > > device4 > > |  %SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHDEV, no such device available > >t8 > > |  %PPPD-F-ABORT, fatal error encountered; operation > > terminated > > |t > >r > > |n > >, > > |  WORKAROUND: > >o > > |c > >  > > |  None. > >t > > |  > >m > > |t > >a > > |  ALTERNATIVE KIT:y > >n > > |e > >a. > > |  There is no alternative kit to install. > > Engineering is evaluatinge0 > > |  this issue.  Depending on results of that > > evaluation, this kit will 2 > > |  be removed from hold or a new kit issued to > > replace the problem kit. > > |r > >  > > |e > >mG > *********************************************************************, > >  > >e
 > > Simon. > >p > > -- > > Simon Clubley,0 > > clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP/ > > Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.a >s >P > =====w > ========================== > Fbio dos Santos Cardoso > OpenVMS System Manager > Rio de Janeiro - Brazilp > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br > ========================== >p4 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!?0 > Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free > http://sbc.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:34:02 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>( Subject: Re: Quorum discussion/questions) Message-ID: <3D2D6D2A.BED75030@127.0.0.1>I   Keith Parris wrote:o >  > Just a minor correction. > [ > Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:<3D1C363C.BF58C402@127.0.0.1>...rF > > Remember you also have the option of adding the new ES45 as a zeroD > > (non voting) member but this has other implications for locking. > @ > Nic was undoubtedly thinking here of the effect of setting theF > LOCKDIRWT parameter to zero, as is often done on nodes when VOTES is@ > set to zero (e.g. satellite nodes).  But technically the VOTES* > parameter itself doesn't affect locking.  4 True. The effect I was referring to, was if you usedD CLUSTER_CONFIG[_LAN], then adding a non voting (satellite) node alsoD sets LOCKDIRWT to 0. You can change this of course, but this default? SYSGEN getting is implied by the command procedure based on thee operation you select.s  D I do not believe there is any reason to alter this behaviour, if youD sufficiently aware of the behaviour of the DLM, then you'd know this= anyway and make manual corrections to suit your requirements.r   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesw nclews at csc dot comS   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:05:38 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: RRD42 Caddy) Message-ID: <3D2D5872.2EEE75A5@127.0.0.1>2   John Laird wrote:   D > >The DEC 2000 has an RRD45 or 46 which uses one of those caddys... > M > I though they were the boggo tray drives ?  The 40 had the grippy claw in acN > clear case device (case withdrew), and the 42 was the tray with flip up lid,H > all of which remained in the drive.  Everything after that returned to > sanity, I thought.  E The RRD42 had the larger caddy, which had a flip top lid and a springeF loaded laser aperture, like a big 3.5in floppy. I thought these were 2C times minimum, but I discovered a RRD45 or 46 equivalent using thisu caddy in a DEC 2000.  @ I *thougth* I was sending the latter type, but I'd better check!  rM > >> I am notoriously mean, but have bought two 2nd hand 4x drives for my own P > >> machines rather than use a spare 40 or 42 from the office supply !  Neither( > >> are DEC, but both worked just fine. > >iJ > >I think a caddy would survive a postal journey, I'm fairly sure the GPOI > >or whatever they are calling themselves these days would do a good jobRG > >of loosening anything more complex into more constituent bits than aoI > >present day Alpha uses for addressing. That is, if they didn't lose it  > >or misdeliver it first. > N > I am just plain naive.  Both CDROMs were mailed to me, and both worked fine.N > I have also had hard disks mailed, but admittedly these tend to be packed inK > the box 20 times the volume with a 6" layer of foam between every part ofk$ > the drive and the world outside...  > No, lucky. There's time for the post office to knacker or loseG something. Sorry if I sound jaded, but complaining to them,, even using,- them in court, doesn't change their attitude.   E I agree though that most SCSI drives will do nicely, just remember toh enable parity.   -- t? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot comm   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:52:50 +0100 (MET)y9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>tA Subject: Re: System Disk Initialization Parameter recommendations ; Message-ID: <01KJYO4YJ8NA9870E1@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>h  H > > I post this not so much as a response, but to collect comments on my4 > > "rule of thumb for normal-usage hobbyist disks". > F > I would caution that the formula you suggest would be suitable for aI > large disk with many small files. On the 70GB (or so) disk mentioned bysJ > another poster, this formula would result in tying up more than 1/2GB ofF > disk space for file headers - more than 1.7 million blocks. That's a > *LOT* of files!p  @ I should have mentioned that my largest hobbyist disk is 8.3 GB E (actually more, but VMS sees only 8.3 of 9.1 or whatever).  It seems nI that most of my disk have about a quarter of MAXIMUM_FILES when they are  F relatively full, so this looks OK for me even if a lot of small files 
 were created.s  D > Another caution is that /MAXIMUM_FILES (the size of the INDEXF.SYSH > bitmap) should be as large as /HEADERS if /HEADERS exceeds the default > size for /MAXIMUM_FILES.   Right.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:48:45 -0400n5 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com>o& Subject: Re: VAX Scan on OpenVMS Alpha* Message-ID: <agk9cl$ct2$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  A Here is also the web site http://www.softresint.com/AlphaScan.htmi    @ "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message$ news:agk71o$c7n$1@web1.cup.hp.com... > Dear Newsgroup,f >uG > About 5 minutes ago I received the following and thought you might ben
 > interested.2 >e > Warm Regards,o > Sueh > AlphaScan  > VAX Scan on OpenVMS/AlphatE > Good news for VAX Scan users: Software Resources International, the  companyrF > that created the VAX Emulator CHARON-VAX, migrates VAX Scan to AlphaJ > systems. The product is named AlphaScan. It is a direct port of VAX Scan toD > the OpenVMS/Alpha operating system. It supports VAX Scan dependent	 companies D > in moving their application maintenance systems onto OpenVMS Alpha	 platformsy< > and using their existing VAX Scan script files unmodified. >rK > Like VAX Scan on the VAX/VMS platform, AlphaScan is a high level languagehD > designed for source code processing that runs on OpenVMS/Alpha. In additionG > to the commonplace string operators such as concatenation, substring,aK > extraction and comparison, AlphaScan has powerful constructs for matching F > complex text patterns and sorting. These capabilities make AlphaScanD > particularly useful for building filters, translators, extractors, > pre-processors, and parsers. >sL > AlphaScan can use the Language Sensitive Editor (LSE) and with Source CodeC > Analyzer (SCA) for further aid in software development. AlphaScaniH > implementation is based on the lexical and semantic modules of the VAX ScanE > compiler, which generate an intermediate representation of the SCANl modulesaK > in ANSI C code. Therefore AlphaScan requires an installed DEC C compiler.kG > AlphaScan modules can be linked with modules written in other OpenVMScF > languages to produce an executable image that can be executed by the OpenVMSs > RUN command. >i > It looks like VAX Scan >nG > AlphaScan modules can be linked with modules written in other OpenVMSVF > languages to produce an executable image that can be executed by the OpenVMSi > RUN command. >bK > The AlphaScan language can be divided into two parts; the first part is arH > block-structured language that can be used for traditional algorithmicA > programming, while the second part deals with pattern matching.d >sK > The pattern matching part of AlphaScan is built on the simple model of annJ > input stream of text, such as a file or string, that is transformed by aJ > AlphaScan program to produce an output stream. These transformations areJ > performed by block type constructs called macros. Each macro describes aG > pattern of text to be found in the input stream and the algorithm for 2 > replacing the matched text in the output stream. >lL > These macros use syntax diagrams to describe the patterns to be located inH > the input stream. These diagrams are based on a high level Backus-Naur FormL > (BNF) that is similar to the form used to describe language syntax in many( > of the VMS language reference manuals. >e >t >l > For further informationn > G > Contact Arie de Groot of Software Resources International SA by emailt< > (arie.degroot@softresint.com) or by phone (+31 40 2960352) >d >c >o   ------------------------------   Date: 10 Jul 2002 19:54:09 GMT7 From: sy18889@rabmbit.famrp.cosm (Bradford J. Hamilton)kG Subject: VMS vs. MVS (was: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts) ! Message-ID: <yqdhg20lWFRu@rabbit>    Hi John,  N Do you have access to Google?  If so, the following c.o.v. post shows that at F least *one* employee of HP has an idea of how to contrast VMS vs. MVS:  A (warning - URL is wrapped - if the URL fails, then do a search in A groups.google.com for "keith parris" and "dlm", (8-april, 2002)):M  O http://groups.google.com/groups?q=keith+parris+dlm+group:*vms*&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF2I -8&oe=UTF-8&selm=6ec1251e.0204080937.47cad9eb%40posting.google.com&rnum=2   m In article <p63X8.7112$6DW1.3439@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:  > > > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message* > news:mnYW8.140116$Uu2.32124@sccrnsc03... <snip>>  > N > And as to MVS, I'd be really surprised if Compaq/HP has anyone left on staffL > who knows how to spell MVS in a competitive sales situation, much less canH > accurately speak about the strengths and weaknesses of it vs. OpenVMS. >  <snip>   >  --   Bradford J. Hamilton& braMdhamAilPtoSn@aMtAtPbi.cSom		(home)& sMy1A88P89S@rabMbit.fAmPr.coSm		(work)  ; "All opinions that I express are my own, not my employer's"  "Lose the MAPS"P   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:21:53 +0200 . From: Dennis Grevenstein <dennis@pcde.inka.de>% Subject: Re: VS 3100/38: Boot message , Message-ID: <3D2D2401.A90DFA9A@pcde.inka.de>   Jamie Stallwood wrote: >  >  ? DZ       0000.4001   E That's perfectly normal. It's a VAXstation after all, so it complains ) that there is no keyboard/mouse attached.s   > ?? NI       0011.700ET  5 That's normal too if it's not connected to a network.P   HTHP Dennis   -- o7 AIX does not kill you, but you will wish you were dead.M  =                 Kristian Koehntopp (de.alt.sysadmin.recovery)s   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jul 2002 09:04:36 -0700/ From: chris@applied-synergy.com (Chris Scheers) % Subject: Re: VS 3100/38: Boot message = Message-ID: <754a27c1.0207110804.385b1d62@posting.google.com>    Jamie Stallwood <this.no.work.try.something.else@project76.net> wrote in message news:<l3qoiu0tub2v2q084ehcfiiagk9r1fed4v@4ax.com>...  > Hi,  > @ > I have recently acquired a VaxStation 3100/38, to which I haveD > attached a terminal. I have no monitor and the switch S3 is in the > correct setting. > B > When it boots it fails test DZ (serial line) - see attached test >  > Now according to9 > http://www.whiteice.com/~williamwebb/ChapC/DOC-C-4.html G > The line 3 test should return 4000 if untested, and 0001 if OK. It is F > returning 4001. So does that mean it was both untested and OK, or is7 > there a different return code on 38s rather than 76s?r  B The status is a bit mask.  Multiple bits may be set.  So, yes, the result is untested and OK.  F Since you are using a terminal as the console, you are tying up one ofC the serial ports.  The DZ test is just telling you that it couldn't*' test the line because you are using it.     @ > Additionally, is there an owners' manual for this model around > (WS42A-BC)  E Some of the older documentation CDs have a VAXstation 3100-38 owner's-) manual.  I found one on the July 1993 CD.0   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:05:57 +0200a% From: "Jakob Erber" <erberj@yahoo.de>g# Subject: Re: Which thread am I in ?p% Message-ID: <3d2d4a75$1@news.post.ch>f  J You have to attach thread specific Data to the calling threads, which theyF then pass in again with every call. Please look up the DECThreads doku   regardsa   Jakobr  @ "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> schrieb im Newsbeitrag% news:3D2D1E65.DCBBA47@videotron.ca...rJ > Say I have a subroutine that has various RAB blocks allocated. I want to makeK > sure that if the calling program is multithreaded, one thread will not betJ > using a RAB from another thread even though that RAB may be marked "free to > reuse" for that thread.u >iB > Is there an easy way in C to find out which thread is calling my subroutine ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:23:53 GMTe$ From: "labadie" <labadie_g@decus.fr>S Subject: Re: Who Knows Asterix / how difficult it is to do a correct translation...n1 Message-ID: <tgbX8.2$YO6.145525@news.cpqcorp.net>x  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2C73F0.38FECA7B@videotron.ca... > labadie wrote:! > > Any idea of what is Asterix ? 7 > > For the french people, it is only a famous cartoon.y >eJ > "Only" ????? Astrix is tantamount to a history book to most who grew up on ithH > and learned about how Les Gaulois put up a fight against the Romans... Withoutw( > Asterix, most wouldn't know about it !   I have been misunderstood.   In french, I would have saidJ Pour les francais, Asterix signifie uniquement une bande dessine clbre.* (notice "uniquement", and not "seulement")   RegardsE   Grard   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:42:13 +0100B% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>i  Subject: Re: Who Knows Asterix ?8 Message-ID: <q4kqiu08nt8k2j2e93lm8jhkk82p6j4a9i@4ax.com>  , On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:50:41 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:e   >labadie wrote:F  >> Any idea of what is Asterix ?6 >> For the french people, it is only a famous cartoon. >eO >"Only" ????? Astrix is tantamount to a history book to most who grew up on itoO >and learned about how Les Gaulois put up a fight against the Romans... Withouto' >Asterix, most wouldn't know about it !i  1 Have you read it in the original Latin though? :)e  > Actually this isn't really a joke as there were Latin editionsC produced of several of the books which were used in teaching Latin.   E In fact a quick search at amazon finds the Asterix Learn Latin CD-ROMh_ http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004VUB8/ref=sr_aps_software_1_1/026-2780089-5600433a  B and several Asterix books in Latin still in print such as "Asterix5 Apud Britannos (Latin Edition of Asterix in Britain)"uf http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0785910298/qid=1026380447/sr=2-2/ref=sr_2_2/103-3446658-3868610   -- Alan   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.379 ************************