1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 13 Jul 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 382       Contents:- Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - RE: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) - Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...) # Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study # Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study % Re: Alpha Shadowing Phase II question  Re: Andrew the hypocrite! 1 Re: Command Procedure to logoff inactive users... 1 Re: Command Procedure to logoff inactive users... 1 Re: Command Procedure to logoff inactive users...  Databases x lock management - Re: Dell Says on Track Despite Weak PC Demand - Re: Dell Says on Track Despite Weak PC Demand  Re: DS10 shutting downP Get the girl or man you always wanted with Mind Power Seduction - Free Download  HP Itanium2 benchmarks Re: HP Itanium2 benchmarks Re: HP Itanium2 benchmarks( Re: Intel Wall Street Journal Itanium Ad( Re: Intel Wall Street Journal Itanium Ad( Re: Intel Wall Street Journal Itanium Ad( Re: Intel Wall Street Journal Itanium Ad! Re: Itanium II Another Shoe Drops ! Re: Itanium II Another Shoe Drops ! Re: Itanium II Another Shoe Drops ! Re: Itanium II Another Shoe Drops ! Re: Itanium II Another Shoe Drops ! Re: Itanium II Another Shoe Drops , Re: Looking for terminal session sharing pgm Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh... Re: McKinley Cometh...+ Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts + Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts  Re: Mousewheel+ RE: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow) . Re: OpenSSL and certificates concept questions. Re: OpenSSL and certificates concept questions Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors A Re: OpenVMS on third-party platforms (was: Re: VMS port delayed!) A Re: OpenVMS on third-party platforms (was: Re: VMS port delayed!) A Re: OpenVMS on third-party platforms (was: Re: VMS port delayed!) A Re: OpenVMS on third-party platforms (was: Re: VMS port delayed!)  Re: OpenVMS Polls are back!  Re: Oracle RDB on VMS  Re: Oracle RDB on VMS ' re:oracleRDb on Open VMS install errors  Re: RECALL suggestion  Re: RECALL suggestion  un-INITing a tape?$ Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd...B Re: VMS vs. MVS (was: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts)B Re: VMS vs. MVS (was: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts)C Re: WATCHER (was Re: Command Procedure to logoff inactive users...) C Re: WATCHER (was Re: Command Procedure to logoff inactive users...) ( Re: XP1000 667Mhz USD2995 !!!!! Incoming  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:09:06 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>6 Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)A Message-ID: <mPFX8.63153$Bt1.3326270@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message& news:agn0ft$2icc$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...J > In article <Pine.GSO.4.33.0207120104250.10471-100000@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>,1 >  Peter Boyle <pboyle@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> writes:  > |>. > |> C null terminated strings are responsible6 > |> for a great many optimisation and security evils. >  > Sigh....  Here we go again.  > = > C did not invent the concept of the null terminated string.    Probably not, but...  < > MACRO-11 had it and I'm sure it didn't begin there either.    ... doesn't C pre-date MACRO-11?   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:20:43 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>6 Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)A Message-ID: <f_FX8.63405$Bt1.3333209@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message ; news:mPFX8.63153$Bt1.3326270@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...  > @ > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message( > news:agn0ft$2icc$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...L > > In article <Pine.GSO.4.33.0207120104250.10471-100000@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>,3 > >  Peter Boyle <pboyle@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> writes:  > > |>0 > > |> C null terminated strings are responsible8 > > |> for a great many optimisation and security evils. > >  > > Sigh....  Here we go again.  > > ? > > C did not invent the concept of the null terminated string.  >  > Probably not, but... > > > > MACRO-11 had it and I'm sure it didn't begin there either. > " > ... doesn't C pre-date MACRO-11?  K Hmmm.  One of my C books says it was developed in 1972, somewhat later than H Unix.  So it *could* have post-dated MACRO-11 (the first 11s appeared in1 1970, but I have no idea when MACRO-11 appeared).    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:15:16 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 6 Subject: RE: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEKKFFAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message----- 0 >From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net]% >Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 12:21 PM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com7 >Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)  >  >  > 6 >"Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message< >news:mPFX8.63153$Bt1.3326270@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >>A >> "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message ) >> news:agn0ft$2icc$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...  >> > In article > ><Pine.GSO.4.33.0207120104250.10471-100000@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>,4 >> >  Peter Boyle <pboyle@holyrood.ed.ac.uk> writes: >> > |> 1 >> > |> C null terminated strings are responsible 9 >> > |> for a great many optimisation and security evils.  >> >  >> > Sigh....  Here we go again. >> >@ >> > C did not invent the concept of the null terminated string. >> >> Probably not, but...  >>? >> > MACRO-11 had it and I'm sure it didn't begin there either.  >># >> ... doesn't C pre-date MACRO-11?  > L >Hmmm.  One of my C books says it was developed in 1972, somewhat later thanI >Unix.  So it *could* have post-dated MACRO-11 (the first 11s appeared in 2 >1970, but I have no idea when MACRO-11 appeared).  J Sounds about right the first unix for the PDP7 was written in B a typeless predecessor to C in 1970 >  >- bill  >  >  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release Date: 6/20/2002  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.372 / Virus Database: 207 - Release Date: 6/20/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 22:57:03 +0200 , From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>6 Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)4 Message-ID: <3D2F429F.72F11C8D@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>   Bill Todd wrote:  M > Hmmm.  One of my C books says it was developed in 1972, somewhat later than J > Unix.  So it *could* have post-dated MACRO-11 (the first 11s appeared in3 > 1970, but I have no idea when MACRO-11 appeared).   > According to http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html:  E "C came into being in the years 1969-1973, in parallel with the early B development of the Unix operating system; the most creative periodF occurred during 1972. Another spate of changes peaked between 1977 andH 1979, when portability of the Unix system was being demonstrated. In theG middle of this second period, the first widely available description of C the language appeared: The C Programming Language, often called the  `white book' or `K&R'"  ) Of course, the best part of this page is:   G "Challenged by McIlroy's feat in reproducing TMG, Thompson decided that H Unix-possibly it had not even been named yet-needed a system programmingA language. After a rapidly scuttled attempt at Fortran, he created " instead a language of his own ..."   An early case of NIH ...   --  G Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290 6 Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG  Maartensdijk, The NetherlandsG Maintainer, GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.html E Join GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction)    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 22:28:57 GMT   From: Iain Bason <igb@attbi.com>6 Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)9 Message-ID: <igb-F17AAF.18294112072002@netnews.attbi.com>   0 In article <agl00k$q2b$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,*  nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote:  C > And your point about the memory operations being similar to those A > needed for communication is one that is sadly missed by most of  > the current HPC people :-(  ? I don't know that it's missed (seems pretty obvious to me), but A it does take extra hardware to do a memory to memory move at full D speed while letting the CPU continue to execute unrelated operationsD out of cache.  The question is, are there enough circumstances where7 that's feasible to justify the expense of the hardware?   ! I don't claim to know the answer.    Iain   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 2002 22:15:52 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)6 Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)- Message-ID: <agnkeo$78l@web.eng.baileynm.com>   + In article <aglv9d$s2l$1@newsx.cc.uic.edu>, 4 Anil T Maliyekke  <amaliy1@icarus.cc.uic.edu> wrote:? > String literals in C are null terminated, so it is a language 
 > problem.  ' Pass string literals in as 2 arguments:    #define lit(s) sizeof(s)-1,s  ' 	putfmt(lit("%s"), lit("Hello World"));    --  O I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs O of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate.  All L these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain.   `-_-'K Time for your nap.  | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag?    'U`    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 2002 22:18:15 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)6 Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)- Message-ID: <agnkj7$7g2@web.eng.baileynm.com>   ' In article <agm1vu$l40$1@gw.retro.com>, 5 George William Herbert <gherbert@gw.retro.com> wrote: 8 > At worst, an adapter function which returns the struct8 > corresponding to a given literal can be wrapped around8 > literals input into the new library... I was trying to9 > figure out how to #define something which would do that 8 > but it's late at night and the C preprocessor has only6 > been an aquaintence for the last decade or so, not a > close friend.   E ISTR someone (Ken Arnold?) producing something like this monstrosity:   $ #define str(s) (""[0]=sizeof(s),s-1)  K to produce byte-counted strings, based on the vagaries of the K&R compiler.    --  O I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs O of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate.  All L these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain.   `-_-'K Time for your nap.  | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag?    'U`    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 17:13:47 -0700- From: robertwessel2@yahoo.com (Robert Wessel) 6 Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)= Message-ID: <bea2590e.0207121613.2a342f6b@posting.google.com>   a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3D2E1B85.CFE62BE7@videotron.ca>... " > One issue about the MVC vs RISC. > L > In cobol and other languages, MVC uis extremely useful because you know in+ > advance how many bytes need to be copied.  > N > But in Unix/C, a routine such as strcpy must really look at individual bytesN > to determine where the copy is to stop, so a single assembler instruction toP > move large amounts of data doesn't map terribly well to C in this case and you? > need a loop with a test for 0 in there and move byte by byte.   F Of course there's nothing preventing someone from doing something likeC S/390 Move String (MVST), which moves bytes until some character is E found in the source string.  FWIW, S/390 has added a fair number of C  support instructions...    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 05:00:08 GMT 2 From: "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@PleaseRemove.att.net>6 Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)H Message-ID: <stOX8.25548$Iu6.1372677@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  - "Iain Bason" <igb@attbi.com> wrote in message 3 news:igb-F17AAF.18294112072002@netnews.attbi.com... 2 > In article <agl00k$q2b$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>,, >  nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote: > E > > And your point about the memory operations being similar to those C > > needed for communication is one that is sadly missed by most of  > > the current HPC people :-( > A > I don't know that it's missed (seems pretty obvious to me), but C > it does take extra hardware to do a memory to memory move at full F > speed while letting the CPU continue to execute unrelated operationsF > out of cache.  The question is, are there enough circumstances where9 > that's feasible to justify the expense of the hardware?   L I think the extra hardware (sort of a coprocessor) to do the move/fill, etc.K is pretty trivial and for many applications it would be a big win.  But the K problem is control.  You want to make it assynchronous with the main CPU so L that the main CPU can execute other instructions while the move is going on.J (in fact, you probably want it to have lower prioirity for the memory tahnL the processor.)  So you load up some control registers and kick it off.  NowJ how do you know when you are done?  Do you force an interrupt?  That makesL it fairly heavy duty and limits its usfullness to larger operations.  Do youE have some sort of "coprocessor wait" instruction that waits for it to G finish?  What happens if you take an interrupt while the coprocessor is I active?  Do you wait for it to finish?  That increased interrupt latency. E But if you let it continue, you have issues with memory protection if L another process is switched to and what if that process wants to use it?  IfJ you stop it in the middle, how do you get things started up correctly whenI the process that inititated the request is switched back in again?  There A are a number of nagging issues like this that make it hard to do.   G One note, the register spill engine in IA-64 seems to be something like D this.  Perhaps whatever mechanisms it uses to address the problems IE mentioned could be extended in a future revision of the architecture.    --  - Stephen Fuld +    e-mail address disguised to prevent spam    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 05:10:13 GMT 2 From: "Stephen Fuld" <s.fuld@PleaseRemove.att.net>6 Subject: Re: "Clean" CISC (was Re: McKinley Cometh...)H Message-ID: <VCOX8.25603$Iu6.1374809@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2E1B85.CFE62BE7@videotron.ca..." > One issue about the MVC vs RISC. > L > In cobol and other languages, MVC uis extremely useful because you know in+ > advance how many bytes need to be copied.  > H > But in Unix/C, a routine such as strcpy must really look at individual bytes K > to determine where the copy is to stop, so a single assembler instruction  toL > move large amounts of data doesn't map terribly well to C in this case and you ? > need a loop with a test for 0 in there and move byte by byte.   L It has been far too long, but can't you use a Translate and Test instructionJ to do the equivalent (copy until a zero byte is found), at least for up to 256 bytes per instruction?   --  - Stephen Fuld +    e-mail address disguised to prevent spam    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:14:57 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>, Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS StudyA Message-ID: <B0FX8.62136$Bt1.3292984@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>S  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:APcrd5NdfHM9@eisner.encompasserve.org...    ...   F > That contract does not affect the rights of individuals, but it doesE > affect the rights of HP.  Perhaps they are allowed to pick up againI= > developing EV8 provided they give Intel all the money back.i  H IIRC, Compaq said a year ago when discussing the 'deal' that it retainedJ rights to continue to develop Alpha (without in that statement saying thatG those development rights were limited to the EV7x platform).  What wenti@ unstated was whether these rights were contingent on, e.g., some( demonstrable level of failure of Itanic.  G It's entirely possible that as long as cHumPaq did in fact offer Itanic G systems *in parallel with* PA-RISC and Alpha equivalents (as it will oflL course anyway for many years, if one believes its statements), then it wouldK not get into trouble if it continued RISC development beyond that currently L contemplated.  Given its statement of commitment to consolidation on Itanic,K if it tried to ditch those efforts entirely in the Alpha and PA-RISC spacese things might get messier.e     SincelC > a lot of the compensation likely was in the form of reduced Intel D > prices, they better be ready to jump exclusively to AMD and Power4( > before they decide to give up on IA64.  J A specious argument.  If all the other vendors, who presumably don't enjoyL similar discounts because they didn't offer up similar sacrifices (Alpha) orH development support (HP) for Itanic, can still compete effectively usingJ Intel parts, then HP would merely be placed on the same level as they are:D if HP can't then compete, that's indicative of an entirely different problem.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:23:13 GMTc# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t, Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS StudyI Message-ID: <l8FX8.27848$WJf1.23966@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:APcrd5NdfHM9@eisner.encompasserve.org... F > In article <agmtd3$koa$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk writes:t7 > > In article <FhboRWcfOEdx@eisner.encompasserve.org>,s/ Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:p@ > >>In article <87ptxtbx03.fsf@prep.synonet.com>, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> writes:r9 > >>> "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:: > >>>rJ > >>>> Yep. But here's a question: having cast all the EV8 developers intoJ > >>>> the not-so-tender embrace of L'Intella, and having lost over a yearG > >>>> of development, is there any way in which HPQ could re-start the  > >>>> effort now? > >>>IJ > >>> Continue the EV8. The chip people should now be free to return, withL > >>> pockets intact :) and continue on. A low cost EV8LCA would be a REALLY3 > >>> good idea at the moment, for several reasons.R > >>G > >>Are you suggesting that the contract Intel and Compaq signed makingdI > >>IA64 Compaq's stated direction for the future has no penalty clause ?nH > >>It probably has a time limit, but for that time limit to be as short! > >>as one year seems improbable.: > > # > > Well two things come to mind :-r > >. > > 1) Compaq no longer exists.w >R2 > But the contracts they signed are binding on HP. >28 > > 2) Employees are not slaves to be bartered and sold. >@F > That contract does not affect the rights of individuals, but it doesE > affect the rights of HP.  Perhaps they are allowed to pick up again.D > developing EV8 provided they give Intel all the money back.  SinceC > a lot of the compensation likely was in the form of reduced Intel D > prices, they better be ready to jump exclusively to AMD and Power4( > before they decide to give up on IA64.    K Completing the contractual port is one thing. Deciding to sell VMS on IA-64eH is another, unless Curly roped Compaq into an 'exclusive to IA-64' deal.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:12:25 +0100 ) From: Witchy <news@sruasonidyranib.co.uk>>. Subject: Re: Alpha Shadowing Phase II question8 Message-ID: <nskuiu07tu95tbc8h93mgs4606qlgodaag@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:54:36 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:8   >Witchy wrote: >> >INITIALIZE >> >
 >> >  /SHADOW  >> >G >> >        /SHADOW=(device_name_1, device_name_2, device_name_3) label$ >cA >> see that. Surely though a full copy must be performed anyway? . >7J >*speculation* Perhaps what this does is simply setup the few prerequisiteM >files in [000000] on all 3 drives at the same time, and with the rest markedgN >"unused" it doesn't bother copying the "random" data on the unused portion of >the drive ? >iK >This way, when you copy data to the new "empty" shadowset, perhaps it only M >needs to write the new data to all drives without having to first compare to   >see if it needs to be written ? > % >This is just speculation on my part.v  C That was my point - there isn't a way of creating properly shadowedtB volumes without first copying the data. Yes it's nice to know thatF there's a feature that allows the possibility of future shadowing, butB the shadowing must complete before data is safe. Personally havingC discovered the physical copy method on this ng this week (I knew itgF existed but hadn't put 2+2 together for shadow operations) that's what I'll be doing over the weekend.a   cheers   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 19:33:55 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)" Subject: Re: Andrew the hypocrite!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0207121833.59268e63@posting.google.com>e   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<agmm3f$6i4$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...g > Bob Ceculski wrote:s > I > >>>FWIW, Solaris is more or less "UN*X vanilla" here: at, atq, crontab,.6 > >>>etc., but no batch queues as VMS folks know them. > >>>: > >>>| > >>F > >>But there is a wealth of 3rd party batch queue products, Control-M > >>etc etc. > >> > >>Regardss > >>Andrew Harrison. > >> > > ? > > from one of your prior posts Andrew about VMS IP stacks ...m > > G > > Nice try but not the point. Who gives a rats arse if Multinet isn'tsH > > vunerable. Now days no customer expects to have to buy an additionalE > > layered 3rd party product to get IP support in an OS and very fewaG > > customers would be impressed with the idea that you need to do this1. > > because the vendors own product is broken. > >  >  > 3 > Bob if you cannot work out the difference between72 > the basic requirement in the internet age for an5 > OS to include a functioning and not to CERT adversee4 > IP stack and the need for a reliable batch queuing > system then you need help. > 6 > As ever you are a delight and a joy to converse with > keep it up :):):)g > 	 > Regardsr > Andrew Harrison   A well, we have web services, but in a heavy accounting environment6D like ours, print services are even more important than web services,A maybe you just deal with ecommerce solutions, but their are other 7 applications that run in the world, not just ecommerce!a   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:28:51 -0700 (PDT)n. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>: Subject: Re: Command Procedure to logoff inactive users...@ Message-ID: <20020712182851.28278.qmail@web20202.mail.yahoo.com>  6 Why not configure the AUTOLOG parameter in the SYSGEN, like:   ) MC SYSGEN SET LOG_INACT = "0 00.15.00:00"s   Regardsi   FC :    ' --- labadie <labadie_g@decus.fr> wrote:, > 4 > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in	 > messagem( > news:3D2DFCF6.90D43C38@videotron.ca... > > Shiva MahaDeva wrote:a > > >a5 > > > Is there any way to make a Command Procedure tox > logoff inactive users? > > 2 > > There would be, but it wouldn't be pretty. You > need to keep an artray of 5 > > CPU/IO numbers for each process and compare it ton > see it it has moved in > theR > > last XX minutes. >  > JF is right.6 > I remember a site where a Dcl procedure did that (in > 1988), when it started, 6 > you could as well go and have a coffee, it was close
 > to a freezeg > for 5 minutes !  >  > Grard >  >      =====a ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazili fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?. Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:58:20 +0200-9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>M: Subject: Re: Command Procedure to logoff inactive users...' Message-ID: <3D2F26CC.46BEC868@aaa.com>-  " 1. I can't find that sysgen param.  9 2. I doupt that that sysgen param would give you the samek;    flexibilty on selecting who to logout and when. Such as,p!    "never logout anyone on OPA0:"iD    "logout everyone efter 10 min on weekends, 30 min all other days"F    "logout eveyone after 3 min in terminal XXX or if having identifyer ABC"1    "Leave all having identifyer DO_NOT_LOGOUT_ME"e    and so on...o   Jan-Erik Sderholm.m   Fabio Cardoso wrote: > 8 > Why not configure the AUTOLOG parameter in the SYSGEN, > like:e > + > MC SYSGEN SET LOG_INACT = "0 00.15.00:00"s > 	 > Regardsf >  > FC   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:12:44 -0700 (PDT)a. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>: Subject: Re: Command Procedure to logoff inactive users...@ Message-ID: <20020712191244.41642.qmail@web20203.mail.yahoo.com>  - This parameter doesnt exist... It was just a t/ suggestion !  So, the application should logoutl% the user after a specified time!!!!!!t   Regardsg   FC l+ --- Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote:g$ > 1. I can't find that sysgen param. > 6 > 2. I doupt that that sysgen param would give you the > same4 >    flexibilty on selecting who to logout and when.
 > Such as,# >    "never logout anyone on OPA0:"o6 >    "logout everyone efter 10 min on weekends, 30 min > all other days"H6 >    "logout eveyone after 3 min in terminal XXX or if > having identifyer  > ABC"3 >    "Leave all having identifyer DO_NOT_LOGOUT_ME"H >    and so on...r >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm.- >  > Fabio Cardoso wrote: > > 2 > > Why not configure the AUTOLOG parameter in the	 > SYSGEN, 	 > > like:: > > - > > MC SYSGEN SET LOG_INACT = "0 00.15.00:00"D > >  > > Regardsn > >  > > FC     =====t ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?. Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:18:15 -0700 (PDT)n. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>$ Subject: Databases x lock management@ Message-ID: <20020712191816.11592.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com>  + We are having excessive locks in a specifico# ORACLE RDB database under OpenVMS. h+ We have about 300 users connecting directlye5 to a database, and when we have some ODBC connections 3 or even Oracle DB Links the database become locked.r3 After I stop the process, the database is released.s1 So, IMHO I believe it is an architecture problem. / Do you use these applications directly attached . to the database or are  using some TP software5 or RTR to a massive concurrent acess to the database?   6 Any references in the internet about Database locking * or use if TP softwares to improve the lock
 management???)   RegardsD   FC 5   =====2 ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil2 fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?. Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:34:44 -0400i+ From: "Martin O'Connor" <moconnor@dvfs.com>t6 Subject: Re: Dell Says on Track Despite Weak PC Demand5 Message-ID: <agnb0l$nf8un$1@ID-118202.news.dfncis.de>i  F I don't know how extensive this is but where my wife works they have aL volume contract with Dell and they purchase over 100 peecees a month. All of' the work is done strictly over the web.   < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message9 news:RAEX8.331542$R61.296079@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...s > G > Gotta hand it to Dell. They continue to do pretty darned well. Longer  term, K > though, will the firm be able to extend itself into the enterprise, whereRC > systems are generally not purchased over the Web? Time will tell.- >s >s   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 19:01:18 -0600+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)c6 Subject: Re: Dell Says on Track Despite Weak PC Demand3 Message-ID: <fmVKGZXveWQc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <agnb0l$nf8un$1@ID-118202.news.dfncis.de>, "Martin O'Connor" <moconnor@dvfs.com> writes: H > I don't know how extensive this is but where my wife works they have aN > volume contract with Dell and they purchase over 100 peecees a month. All of) > the work is done strictly over the web.m > > > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message; > news:RAEX8.331542$R61.296079@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...  >>H >> Gotta hand it to Dell. They continue to do pretty darned well. Longer > term, L >> though, will the firm be able to extend itself into the enterprise, whereD >> systems are generally not purchased over the Web? Time will tell. >>  > We buy all our servers, pcs and laptops via the web from Dell ? and we buy a gob a month (slightly more than a bunch, slightly s less than heckuvalot).   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 16:42:10 -0700 ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>e Subject: Re: DS10 shutting downf+ Message-ID: <3D2F6952.27D17DF7@caltech.edu>o   Kevin Handy wrote: >  > Carl Perkins wrote:e > >uG > > Have you made certain that someone isn't pressing the halt or powertK > > button? That gives you instant system death. They are both convenientlyn. > > located on the front of the box on a DS10. > > I > > "User stupidity" is not unheard of. Neither is "deliberate sabotage". I > > For that matter, neither is "the cleaning person unplugged it to plugt > > in the vacuum cleaner".d > > K > > You might check to see if the last timestamps recorded before each booteI > > indicate hatls at about the same time of the day, and check to see if ( > > it happens on weekends and holidays. > >r > > --- Carl > ? > Already thought of that, but it occurs at random times, ofteni= > late at night when noone is there, sometimes during the daywA > when many people are about.  System is used as a server, nobodyl, > should be sitting in front of it normally.  ? Overheating problems aren't usually like that.  They tend to bep= more like "run it 2 hours during the day when its warm and it C crashes", unless you're right at the hairy edge on the temperature,.? and you're earlier post suggests that isn't the case.  Probablys< some kind of intermittent fault possibly even external, like? something nasty on the same circuit.  It probably wouldn't hurta> to take it apart and reseat all the cables, memory, and cards.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 04:29:05 +0000 (UTC)o From: epizlh@yahoo.comY Subject: Get the girl or man you always wanted with Mind Power Seduction - Free Download w2 Message-ID: <agoaah$mk6$4088@nobel.pacific.net.sg>   http://seduction.best2web.coms           MIND POWER SEDUCTION      ; FREE DOWNLOAD AVAILABLE NOW. Click the above link to get itt      1 Get the girl you wanted with MIND POWER SEDUCTION           # Irresistible Hypnotic Mind Control i  w Imagine being able to sensually attract anyone at will... attract women & men with subliminal mind  control disciplinesn      V Say nothing and watch as perfect strangers fall into a deep state of  enthrallment...       P Penetrate the minds of others and unleash charisma so potent and long lasting...      x Would you like to discover a secret that allows you to generate extreme fascination in anyone with your thoughts alone?       t The secrets of mind control have largely been untapped. Now, the knowledge of hypnotic seduction has been revealed.       A It is pure mind control power to influence,  attract and more... e       Secretly  tantalize and attract women or  the opposite sex with covert mind control techniques, right in their presence! Generate instant charisma! attract women & men with subliminal mind  control disciplines        Easily master long-range remote influence with scientifically verified telepathic mind control powers. No special skills needed!      } Mind Power Seduction is a uni-sex discipline that naturally infuses you with irresistible covert seduction skills in 30 days!q           http://seduction.best2web.coma  * hqwndjimluutpsleyiuvruqqjywczhlfkxyhpmgwpj    0 supwdssgoimovygioqrrovblitzpxzlycfzxmeyvjwrdjkue   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 12:13:35 -0700$ From: lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) Subject: HP Itanium2 benchmarkss& Message-ID: <3d2f2a5f$1@news.meer.net>  B I was reading the HP Itanium2 performance whitepaper and noticed a couple of interesting points:t  F In the lmbench section, page 7, they state "The zx1 hardware pre-fetchE plays a significant role in achieving this score". If this were true,e then they broke the benchmark.  F On page 8, they say that the memory can be configured in several ways:B direct attach, or with scalable memory expanders. Which way was it? configured for the memory latency test? And what's the point of > stating the bandwidth between the memory and controller if the6 front-side bus is incapable of taking advantage of it?   Finally, no STREAM numbers.e  - Can anyone shed light on any of these issues?r   Thanks,    -- greg-   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 18:29:27 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen):# Subject: Re: HP Itanium2 benchmarkss3 Message-ID: <usBIFBu3tckV@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  M In article <3d2f2a5f$1@news.meer.net>, lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) writes:eD > I was reading the HP Itanium2 performance whitepaper and noticed a > couple of interesting points:h > H > In the lmbench section, page 7, they state "The zx1 hardware pre-fetchG > plays a significant role in achieving this score". If this were true,t  > then they broke the benchmark.  C But for anybody whose real program benefits, that is not a problem.<   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 17:18:33 -0700$ From: lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)# Subject: Re: HP Itanium2 benchmarksb& Message-ID: <3d2f71d9$1@news.meer.net>  3 In article <usBIFBu3tckV@eisner.encompasserve.org>,h. Larry Kilgallen <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:N >In article <3d2f2a5f$1@news.meer.net>, lindahl@pbm.com (Greg Lindahl) writes:E >> I was reading the HP Itanium2 performance whitepaper and noticed a   >> couple of interesting points: >> fI >> In the lmbench section, page 7, they state "The zx1 hardware pre-fetchaH >> plays a significant role in achieving this score". If this were true,! >> then they broke the benchmark.p >aD >But for anybody whose real program benefits, that is not a problem.  B I am all for speeding up real programs. This benchmark is a memoryC latency benchmark: it just happens to have been miswritten to use ayE constant negative stride. It would be wrong to report a better resultaE because a processor has the ability to prefetch that; the right thingi. is to report that the benchmark is now broken.  E But I still have no idea if that's what is going on, or if someone ath@ HP simply wrote an invalid sentence. I'm sure the *bandwidth* is helped quite a bit by prefetch.u   greg   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:04:08 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>e1 Subject: Re: Intel Wall Street Journal Itanium Ad ; Message-ID: <YCGX8.14411$uw.7016@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>o  8 "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> wrote in message! news:3D19AC04.B751DA4@ohio.edu...2 > G > The WSJ for Tuesday had a more-than-one-page ad for Itanium (-2, as Ia recall) that listediD > all sorts of software being developed for it, including in the top section, marked5K > operating systems, three flavors of Windows, HP-UX, two flavors of Linux,: but> >T > **** NO LISTING OF VMS ****> > > > This is perhaps not surprising, but is certainly outrageous. >a  L Indeed it is OUTRAGEOUS and INAPPROPRIATE!!!! ALL HPQ DIRECTORS MUST BURN ATH STAKE FOR NOT ENSURING THAT THE LIST OF 3,235 OPENVMS APPS and 7,329 NSK( APPS THAT RUN ON IFP WERE NOT MENTIONED.  I DOH, VMS HAS NOT BOOTED ON IPF. NOR HAS NSK. SO WHY THE HELL SHOULD THESE  OSes BE MENTIONED?  < Verily, comp.os.vms is degenerating into Usenet for Dummies.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 15:04:31 -07001 From: susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski)t1 Subject: Re: Intel Wall Street Journal Itanium Ad < Message-ID: <857e9e41.0207121404.b885409@posting.google.com>  T We do not have VMS on Intel YET.  And this was not even a plug for the boot contest.   suet    j wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) wrote in message news:<924961471warrenspencer1977@216.168.3.30>...4 > terryshannon@attbi.com (Terry C. Shannon) wrote in" > <XbmS8.1864$Uu2.240@sccrnsc03>:  >  > >i; > >"Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> wrote in messageh$ > >news:3D19AC04.B751DA4@ohio.edu... > >>J > >> The WSJ for Tuesday had a more-than-one-page ad for Itanium (-2, as I >  recall) that listedG > >> all sorts of software being developed for it, including in the topt >  section, markedG > >> operating systems, three flavors of Windows, HP-UX, two flavors ofo > >> Linux,  >  but > >>  > >> **** NO LISTING OF VMS **** > >>A > >> This is perhaps not surprising, but is certainly outrageous.w > >sK > >Yep. And the NonStop community no doubt is equally miffed by the lack ofbD > >mention of NSK on Itanium. Kinda dumb on Intel's part to omit twoG > >ENTERPRISE-CLASS operating systems from its list. Unless, of course,CI > >folks up Redmond way had "input" to the collateral generation process.  > >;-} m > L > And there may be a reason for that, other that sloppy detail-management.  J > Has anyone seen the errata sheet for the I-2 yet?  It might not be good 0 > enough yet for high-availability environments. >  > ws   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:37:24 -0400m- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e1 Subject: Re: Intel Wall Street Journal Itanium Ad , Message-ID: <3D2F5A19.ADF491EC@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:eK > DOH, VMS HAS NOT BOOTED ON IPF. NOR HAS NSK. SO WHY THE HELL SHOULD THESEc > OSes BE MENTIONED? > > > Verily, comp.os.vms is degenerating into Usenet for Dummies.  N I think it is THAT time of the month (or rather 28 day cycle) for Terry... :-) :-) :-)e  L Mr Shannon, it was pointed that the list of OS had some/many that were under* development and not yet available on IA64.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 19:57:37 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)1 Subject: Re: Intel Wall Street Journal Itanium Adr< Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0207121857.648082d@posting.google.com>  u susan_skonetski@hotmail.com (Sue Skonetski) wrote in message news:<857e9e41.0207121404.b885409@posting.google.com>...uV > We do not have VMS on Intel YET.  And this was not even a plug for the boot contest. >  > sue  >  > l > wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer) wrote in message news:<924961471warrenspencer1977@216.168.3.30>...6 > > terryshannon@attbi.com (Terry C. Shannon) wrote in$ > > <XbmS8.1864$Uu2.240@sccrnsc03>:  > >  > > >r= > > >"Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu> wrote in message & > > >news:3D19AC04.B751DA4@ohio.edu... > > >>L > > >> The WSJ for Tuesday had a more-than-one-page ad for Itanium (-2, as I >  recall) that listedI > > >> all sorts of software being developed for it, including in the topr3                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^e  5 Doesn't "porting to" count as "being developed for"?       >  section, markedI > > >> operating systems, three flavors of Windows, HP-UX, two flavors ofl > > >> Linux,     K Are all of the above OSes on Itanium yet? Just asking; I don't really know.      >  but > > >>" > > >> **** NO LISTING OF VMS **** > > >>C > > >> This is perhaps not surprising, but is certainly outrageous.o > > >=M > > >Yep. And the NonStop community no doubt is equally miffed by the lack of F > > >mention of NSK on Itanium. Kinda dumb on Intel's part to omit twoI > > >ENTERPRISE-CLASS operating systems from its list. Unless, of course,:K > > >folks up Redmond way had "input" to the collateral generation process.j	 > > >;-} m    : This is the first I've heard of a non-VMS OS being miffed!    N > > And there may be a reason for that, other that sloppy detail-management.  L > > Has anyone seen the errata sheet for the I-2 yet?  It might not be good 2 > > enough yet for high-availability environments.    . But the key phrase was "being developed for".      Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmano afeldman gfigroup comn   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:57:56 GMTN1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>o* Subject: Re: Itanium II Another Shoe Drops? Message-ID: <8xGX8.332453$R61.296516@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>C  # "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"s> <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message* news:afs9ld$gdm$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... >r > A > Dell have just announced that they are following a wait and seeeB > strategy with Itanium II. They will not be announcing models and9 > apparently will not be supporting Intel for the launch.s >. > L http://investor.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-20110110-0.html? tag=ltnc >t  J And the point being? After all, Dell is a 32b Wintel OEM, pure and simple.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 2002 22:09:15 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)* Subject: Re: Itanium II Another Shoe Drops0 Message-ID: <agnk2b$4ad$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  ? In article <8xGX8.332453$R61.296516@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>, 0 Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:$ >"Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"? ><andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message + >news:afs9ld$gdm$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...- >>B >> Dell have just announced that they are following a wait and seeC >> strategy with Itanium II. They will not be announcing models andN: >> apparently will not be supporting Intel for the launch. >>M >http://investor.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-20110110-0.html?g	 >tag=ltncJ >iK >And the point being? After all, Dell is a 32b Wintel OEM, pure and simple._  E Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but here are a couple of points:B  ?     1) Dell backed the Merced and are not backing the McKinley.-  C     2) If Dell doesn't cooperate, which other bulk market companiesr0 will sell Intel's Bandera box and E8870 chipset?     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679o   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:54:57 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>d* Subject: Re: Itanium II Another Shoe Drops, Message-ID: <l%JX8.39652$Jp.72976@rwcrnsc53>  5 "Nick Maclaren" <nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote in messagey* news:agnk2b$4ad$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...A > In article <8xGX8.332453$R61.296516@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,e2 > Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:& > >"Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"A > ><andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message=- > >news:afs9ld$gdm$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...p > >>D > >> Dell have just announced that they are following a wait and seeE > >> strategy with Itanium II. They will not be announcing models and_< > >> apparently will not be supporting Intel for the launch. > >> > L >http://investor.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-20110110-0.html ?1 > >tag=ltnci > >mE > >And the point being? After all, Dell is a 32b Wintel OEM, pure andc simple.  >kG > Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but here are a couple of points:o > A >     1) Dell backed the Merced and are not backing the McKinley.u >cE >     2) If Dell doesn't cooperate, which other bulk market companiesh2 > will sell Intel's Bandera box and E8870 chipset?  A Yep. Without the blessing of Dell, IA64 is dead. Long live SPARC!$   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:22:58 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m* Subject: Re: Itanium II Another Shoe Drops, Message-ID: <3D2F72E2.5E6CD40F@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: C > Yep. Without the blessing of Dell, IA64 is dead. Long live SPARC!-  K Dell hasn't said it won't produce IA64 stuff. It just said that it wouldn'thM produce some right away. Also, as a high end chip with high costs, the marketG; niche where IA64 would works doesn't match what Dell wants.n  L What this means is that IA64 may not become "commodity" chip, but it doesn't= mean it will fail just because Dell isn't selling IA64 boxes.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:40:55 GMTm# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>c* Subject: Re: Itanium II Another Shoe DropsF Message-ID: <XqMX8.2680$WsS.1485@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2F72E2.5E6CD40F@videotron.ca... > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:,E > > Yep. Without the blessing of Dell, IA64 is dead. Long live SPARC!s >eD > Dell hasn't said it won't produce IA64 stuff. It just said that it wouldn'tH > produce some right away. Also, as a high end chip with high costs, the market= > niche where IA64 would works doesn't match what Dell wants.- >-F > What this means is that IA64 may not become "commodity" chip, but it doesn'ta? > mean it will fail just because Dell isn't selling IA64 boxes.s  H That's true. But it will become a relatively low-volume CPU family, justJ like Alpha is/was, but perhaps without the design/processing advantages of Alpha.  G Perhaps HP should dust off the plans to move NSK to Alpha, and considercJ donating some of the best features of HP-UX to Tru64. Maybe the best thingK HP could to buy time is do a process-shrink on Alpha EV7 and ramp up EV8 tohG full speed again. Buy/luring the team back together can be done at lesst3 expense than watching the company radically shrink.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:23:59 -0400b- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i* Subject: Re: Itanium II Another Shoe Drops, Message-ID: <3D2F9D43.F438A6BB@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote:a  J > That's true. But it will become a relatively low-volume CPU family, justL > like Alpha is/was, but perhaps without the design/processing advantages of > Alpha.  H I think that it is a given that IA64 has already been relegated to a lowN volume high-cost chip to be used for serious/high margin applications. So yes,N it could be seen as a direct reoplacement of Alpha. This is especially true ifJ only Intel produces chips running that architecture. But alpha was able toI survive for a very long time in such a state and could have survived mucheD longer had it not been owned by a company slave to Intel/microsoft.   I > Perhaps HP should dust off the plans to move NSK to Alpha, and considereL > donating some of the best features of HP-UX to Tru64. Maybe the best thingM > HP could to buy time is do a process-shrink on Alpha EV7 and ramp up EV8 tot  G Lets say Hewlett were able to stage a coup and throw Carly's gang out, 8J re-unite the real HP (agilent) and refocus on quality etc, I think that atL that time, it would be fairly easy to stop the commitment to IA64 and chooseI the better platform as the coup would allow the new board to easily admite& mistakes of the past and correct them.  F However, there is currently no sufficient reason to stage such a coup.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:35:54 -0400p1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>l5 Subject: Re: Looking for terminal session sharing pgms2 Message-ID: <3D2F218A.16D51BF3@firstdbasource.com>   Jim Agnew wrote: > I > Yes, the only time I ever saw Contrl abused was when my boss and I were I > contrling one of our helpers.. He missed the splash screen and the beeppF > (don't ask how...we never could figure out that one), and so we keptF > VAXPhoning him, and watched him keep mispelling it, and we'd "cause"G > some errors ourselves..  then right when we saw him get it right, andm > hit return, we'd hang up.. > H > we kept it up for 10 minutes...   watching all the mispelling...  poor? > guy was really ticked off...  we were rolling on the floor...m > J > Of course, this was a special occasion...  the guy we were abusing was a > "good ole boy"...  > but then, so were we...i >  > Michael Austin wrote:a > >l > > Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:  > > >s8 > > > On "http://vms.process.com/fileserv-software.html" > > > I found the following :e > > >qG > > > JOBLOG     Record terminal output, w/ secure mode (uses FTDRIVER) E > > > LASTCMD    Peek at terminal typeahead buffer (get last command)rF > > > LOGGER     Log terminal sessions using FT pseudo-terminal driver? > > > SUPERVISOR Supervisor Series terminal monitoring softwareiD > > > TERMINALS  Create terminal statistics reports and usage tables > > >n. > > > Perhaps any of those suites your needs ? > > >a > > > Jan-Erik Sderholm.f > > >o > > > Jim Agnew wrote: > > > >hO > > > > Wasn't there a freeware somewhere for this??  It's waaay out on the rimm3 > > > > of my mind, lost in the empty spaces... ;-), > > > >s  > > > > Jim, the good-humored... > > K > > I have used Supervisor - very effective when you are 100 miles from the L > > site and can connect to the uses session and watch as they re-create theJ > > error.  And if you need too, you can also actually type stuff in theirK > > session. Be careful with any product like this as it can, and has been,- > > abused.- > > -- > > Regards, > >8: > > Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 1984; > > First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163t; > > Sr. Consultant            http://www.firstdbasource.com.I > >                           http://www.firstdbasource.com/donation.htmlI3 > > 704-947-1089 (Office)     704-236-4377 (Mobile)e  G One of abuses I had heard of was a "sys admin" (term used very lightly)"C that would go into "assist" mode with a user they were watching andhH "auto correct" misspelled words. They did not know that VMS was powerfulB enough to correct their typing -- Although Tops10/20 did have thatG feature. "Did you mean: xyz command (Y/N)" How difficult would it be toiA put it into VMS - that would really make those **ix guys jealous.    -- - Regards,  6 Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19847 First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163t7 Sr. Consultant            http://www.firstdbasource.com@E                           http://www.firstdbasource.com/donation.htmlm/ 704-947-1089 (Office)     704-236-4377 (Mobile)r   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:03:56 +0000 (UTC)w2 From: Anil T Maliyekke <amaliy1@icarus.cc.uic.edu> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...u+ Message-ID: <agn96s$tio$1@newsx.cc.uic.edu>B  = In comp.arch McCalpin <mccalpin@gmp246.austin.ibm.com> wrote:.A > The performance situation is not so clear as the above implies,o< > since both the p690 and p630 run a portion of their memory@ > subsystems at the fixed speed of 400 MHz.  This means that theB > p630 suffers somewhat less relative latency than the p690 (aboutA > 12% less, if I did the arithmetic correctly).  This p630 config.C > only uses the L3 connected directly to the processor chip runninge= > the benchmark, so the relative L3 latency is lower as well.d  A > So the "SPECfp2000/MHz" on the p630 is decreased by the reduced-C > amount of L3 cache, but increased by the lower relative latencies " > of the L3 and the memory system.  2 There would be reduced memory bandwidth as well.    G IBM probably could get a better performing one processor system if theyiF chose to but would probably require a different design for the POWER4 F chip, using the same core, increasing L2 and dumping the L3 controllerD for an integrated memory controller.  But I guess for that to happenG there would have to be a signficant volume opportunity for IBM in small,I CPU count systems, and that won't happen unless IBM starts really pushingN* Linux+POWER4 systems or Apple uses POWER4.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:41:29 +0100U& From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...U) Message-ID: <3D2F22D9.3E4CA1A@kgcc.co.uk>d   Anil T Maliyekke wrote:N  ? > In comp.arch McCalpin <mccalpin@gmp246.austin.ibm.com> wrote: C > > The performance situation is not so clear as the above implies,p> > > since both the p690 and p630 run a portion of their memoryB > > subsystems at the fixed speed of 400 MHz.  This means that theD > > p630 suffers somewhat less relative latency than the p690 (aboutC > > 12% less, if I did the arithmetic correctly).  This p630 configgE > > only uses the L3 connected directly to the processor chip running ? > > the benchmark, so the relative L3 latency is lower as well.( >rC > > So the "SPECfp2000/MHz" on the p630 is decreased by the reduced.E > > amount of L3 cache, but increased by the lower relative latencies8$ > > of the L3 and the memory system. >"2 > There would be reduced memory bandwidth as well. >hI > IBM probably could get a better performing one processor system if theyaG > chose to but would probably require a different design for the POWER4>H > chip, using the same core, increasing L2 and dumping the L3 controllerF > for an integrated memory controller.  But I guess for that to happenI > there would have to be a signficant volume opportunity for IBM in small*K > CPU count systems, and that won't happen unless IBM starts really pushing , > Linux+POWER4 systems or Apple uses POWER4.  ( I've seen IBM TV ads for Linux recently.5 maybe not for Power4, they didn't mention any systemsm Just making a push for Linux.r   It was nice to see.l   Cheers   Keno   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 2002 18:26:53 GMT& From: Rick Jones <foo@bar.baz.invalid> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh... * Message-ID: <agn71d$bnd$7@web1.cup.hp.com>  M In comp.arch Rupert Pigott <dark.try-eating-this.b00ng@btinternet.com> wrote:rC > As for Webench, fuck knows, but SPEC have web benchmarks too, you-E > should go look at them. Maybe Apple didn't like the scores they gote? > with SPEC's web benchmark suite and so decided to find a moreI > favourable one. :)  D FWIW, the working-set for SPECweb99 and SPECweb99_SSL grows linearlyD with load level. This is in contrast with growth as a square-root ofB the load in SPECweb96 or the working-set being fixed regardless of load in other benchmarks.   C If you do not have the quantity of RAM in your system sufficient to.E cache the working-set for the performance level a processor or set ofmD processors could achieve, you start doing disc I/O. (big surprise :)F If you do not want or do not have sufficient disc performance capacityC for a platform when the working-set is greater than RAM, your scoretE suffers. Even if you do have the disc capacity, you are still burningiD some of your cycles for the disc I/O and so you would not be gettingB quite as large a score as you might. The delta is one of those "it depends" kinds of things.e  C The linear growth of the SPECweb99* working-set isn't as big a deal C (today at least :) with the _SSL version since the SSL adds quite awC bit of processing overhead, so the processor(s) max-out earlier andiE the CPU/RAM sweet-spot would be different. How much less RAM would be E required for the sweet-spot would depend on how well the processor(s)s? being used (or I suppose the offload engines) do the SSL stuff.WE Thusfar, all the SPECweb99_SSL results have used the host processors.cF It will be interesting to see when/if results with offload engines are
 submitted.  
 rick jones --  H Wisdom Teeth are impacted, people are affected by the effects of events.F these opinions are mine, all mine; HP might not want them anyway... :)A feel free to post, OR email to raj in cup.hp.com  but NOT BOTH...x   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:22:01 +0200l, From: Toon Moene <toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl> Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...>4 Message-ID: <3D2F4879.4704D002@moene.indiv.nluug.nl>   Greg Lindahl wrote:Y  ? > Fortran now has the same problem that C does. This particularkF > situation is my favorite question for speakers who like to extol howH > pretty arrays of structures are compared to a few arrays: I don't findA > the former prettier, and the performance hit can be substantialeF > (depending on the context). But then again, that's what happens when; > you mix computational scientists and computer scientists.h   Do you know why this is so ?  = I do not understand why a compiler would be able to optimize:           SUBROUTINE SUB(A, B, C, N)       COMPLEX A(N), B(N), C(N)       DO I = 1, N           A(I) = B(I) * C(I)e       ENDDO 	       END    and not:          SUBROUTINE SUB(A, B, C, N)       TYPE CMPLX          REAL RE          REAL IM       END TYPE CMPLX*       TYPE(CMPLX), DIMENSION(N) :: A, B, C       DO I = 1, NIB          A(I) % RE = B(I) % RE * C(I) % RE - B(I) % IM * C(I) % IMB          A(I) % IM = B(I) % RE * C(I) % IM + B(I) % IM * C(I) % RE       ENDDOm	       ENDe  = But then, perhaps this is not the problem you're hinting at ?t   -- .G Toon Moene - mailto:toon@moene.indiv.nluug.nl - phoneto: +31 346 214290 6 Saturnushof 14, 3738 XG  Maartensdijk, The NetherlandsG Maintainer, GNU Fortran 77: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/g77_news.htmlaE Join GNU Fortran 95: http://g95.sourceforge.net/ (under construction)1   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 2002 21:43:23 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...-- Message-ID: <agnihr$4o8@web.eng.baileynm.com>m  7 In article <XWDW8.13988$K_4.342777@twister1.libero.it>,n' Alberto <uapalbertobu@libero.it> wrote:$K > Outsourcing ? bad job if porpouse is frequency scaling.....Sun know that..  G It seemed to work for Alpha, until Compaq started putting the brakes onHJ around, oh, 2000. And it seems to be working for nVidia. If you don't haveF to develop your own fabs you save a heck of a lot of resources you can apply to design.   -- hO I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofsbO of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate.  AllcL these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain.   `-_-'K Time for your nap.  | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag?    'U`e   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 2002 21:52:45 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...o- Message-ID: <agnj3d$5go@web.eng.baileynm.com>n  A In article <P8LW8.419482$o66.1136863@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,a. Andrew Reilly  <areilly@bigpond.net.au> wrote:I > If there's a fully out-of-order IA-32 engine on the chip, how much moreeJ > effort would it take to turn IA-64 into a 128 register out-of-order RISC > chip?3   Technical or political? :)  K Wasn't there speculation that the ex-EV8 guys would be set to work buildingm? a chip like that with a JIT EPIC-RISC converter in front of it?i  K (I still think Intel should just release the "New Intel Alpha Architecture"   and have done with it)c   -- oO I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs3O of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate.  AlltL these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain.   `-_-'K Time for your nap.  | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag?    'U`.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 2002 22:03:47 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...o0 Message-ID: <agnjo3$40u$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  - In article <agnj3d$5go@web.eng.baileynm.com>,/' Peter da Silva <peter@abbnm.com> wrote:0B >In article <P8LW8.419482$o66.1136863@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,/ >Andrew Reilly  <areilly@bigpond.net.au> wrote: J >> If there's a fully out-of-order IA-32 engine on the chip, how much moreK >> effort would it take to turn IA-64 into a 128 register out-of-order RISC  >> chip? >c >Technical or political? :)o >aL >Wasn't there speculation that the ex-EV8 guys would be set to work building@ >a chip like that with a JIT EPIC-RISC converter in front of it?  @ Would you class that speculation as technical, political or just plain fantastic?  L >(I still think Intel should just release the "New Intel Alpha Architecture" > and have done with it)  > Actually, they would do much better to put the Alpha team ontoA producing a seriously SMP-capable 64-bit ARM design - but that isA. an even more radical proposal in many ways :-)     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679m   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:28:01 GMTc* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt chartsA Message-ID: <RcFX8.61595$iX5.2744836@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>a  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D2F0879.4DC6F820@videotron.ca...   ...e  I > And now, Sue has leaked that VMS has had double digit growth, but won'td
 > confirm it.   L I'm reasonably certain that what Sue said recently was that VMS was enjoyingG double-digit percentages of new customers.  This is consistent with thetL observation Terry has made for years that about 15% of VMS sales were to newI customers, but says absolutely nothing about growth:  for example, duringtI the period that VMS sales were fairly stable, it meant that new customersm2 approximately balanced attrition of old customers.  F Even if the new customers *did* represent growth, the next question isI "growth from what"?  If VMS did indeed sustain the major loss of momentumaF since the Alphacide that the quarterly reports seem to suggest (thoughL perhaps not as bad as the situation with Tru64 became after the announcementH that it had no reservation on the Itanic after all), a minor bounce-back< from the absolute bottom of the curve does not a trend make.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:56:19 GMTh1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>-4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts; Message-ID: <D0KX8.16056$uw.8544@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>   < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D2F6C6C.7C7E14D3@fsi.net...i > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:B
 > > [snip]K > > Oh, I think it's time for rival spin doctors and naysayers to SET RPM =a 78 >o3 > What has Red hat Package Manager to do with OVMS?   K About as much as comp.os.whine.whine.whine has to do with much of anything.h  J Well, that's not quite the case. This group gives HPQ executives plenty of reason to laff their arses off.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:36:59 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts' Message-ID: <3D2F6C6C.7C7E14D3@fsi.net>b   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:c > [snip]L > Oh, I think it's time for rival spin doctors and naysayers to SET RPM = 78  1 What has Red hat Package Manager to do with OVMS?4   --   David J. DachteraP dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/p   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:38:16 GMTs1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>l4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts' Message-ID: <3D2F6CB9.FBFB1E3A@fsi.net>l   JF Mezei wrote:r >  > John Smith wrote:kL > > > Notice we have heard nothing from Capellas since his last "eviscerate"  > > > speech. Maybe a good sign? > >-N > > Perhaps he's in the throes of being 'eviscerated' himself. Not a bad thing > > if you ask me. > O > Carly needed Curly's support for the merger. She may even have said stuff she M > didn't really beleive, but felt it necessary to appear very compatible with L > Curly. But now that Compaq has been securely captured, she doesn't need to > please Curly anymore.t > O > Had this merger happened during the .COM boom, I wouldn't be surprised to see)O > Curly leave fairly fast to join some upstart as its president/ceo etc. But in"N > the current economic climate, I suspect that Curly, knwowing he doesn't haveM > what it takes to head such a large company, will stay put in his office andg+ > see no evil, hear no evil and do no evil.y  7 Oh, I dunno... Is the corporate honeymoon over already?c   -- t David J. Dachterac dba DJE Systemsy http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:40:19 GMTe1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>o4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts' Message-ID: <3D2F6D35.4BB49DCB@fsi.net>    John Smith wrote:t > < > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:oEf$1vegJpBA@eisner.encompasserve.org...v > > N > >    As has already been discussed, there were presss releases, but few ever- > >    saw them.  The difference is stunning.a > M > Press releases are nice, and yes there appears to have been more mention ofkN > VMS in the past serveral months from HP than there appears to have been from0 > CPQ in a similar number of months in the past.  G Let's face it: there's been more good word about VMS come out HP in the F past couple weeks than we've seen from the Q in the last couple years!   High time, too!e  ? >  Some meatier statement from Carly would be equally in order.a   Agreed!    -- - David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:57:57 GMTi1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>44 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts, Message-ID: <92KX8.39672$Jp.72123@rwcrnsc53>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D2F6D35.4BB49DCB@fsi.net...I > John Smith wrote:f > > > > > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:oEf$1vegJpBA@eisner.encompasserve.org...g > > >"K > > >    As has already been discussed, there were presss releases, but fewo ever/ > > >    saw them.  The difference is stunning.  > >cL > > Press releases are nice, and yes there appears to have been more mention ofK > > VMS in the past serveral months from HP than there appears to have beenl from2 > > CPQ in a similar number of months in the past. > I > Let's face it: there's been more good word about VMS come out HP in theeH > past couple weeks than we've seen from the Q in the last couple years! >u > High time, too!  > A > >  Some meatier statement from Carly would be equally in order.0 >(	 > Agreed!   I Followups (sans the whines and the profanity bandied about by some of the  apparently unstable) tow9 http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/email/fiorina/index.htmc   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 19:22:00 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)4 Subject: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0207121821.1b944f0b@posting.google.com>   s "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<RcFX8.61595$iX5.2744836@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...s< > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3D2F0879.4DC6F820@videotron.ca... >  > ...n > K > > And now, Sue has leaked that VMS has had double digit growth, but won't  > > confirm it.  > N > I'm reasonably certain that what Sue said recently was that VMS was enjoyingI > double-digit percentages of new customers.  This is consistent with therN > observation Terry has made for years that about 15% of VMS sales were to newK > customers, but says absolutely nothing about growth:  for example, duringeK > the period that VMS sales were fairly stable, it meant that new customerse4 > approximately balanced attrition of old customers. > H > Even if the new customers *did* represent growth, the next question isK > "growth from what"?  If VMS did indeed sustain the major loss of momentumpH > since the Alphacide that the quarterly reports seem to suggest (thoughN > perhaps not as bad as the situation with Tru64 became after the announcementJ > that it had no reservation on the Itanic after all), a minor bounce-back> > from the absolute bottom of the curve does not a trend make. >  > - bill  8 but it sure beats the loses that every other os took ...   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 22:22:34 GMT " From: lewis@e.cox.net (Spud Demon) Subject: Re: Mousewheels7 Message-ID: <KEIX8.97437$DB.2959201@news1.east.cox.net>i   "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes in article <tPgX8.25$VY6.406540@news.cpqcorp.net> dated Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:42:33 GMT:t. >Try TPU SET (MOUSE,OFF) and see what happens.  I Clicks stop working, and the wheel doesn't cause the message any more (ors$ anything else) in that TPU window.    L I guess what I want to know is how you do the equivalent of a eve_define_key( for X-windows mouse buttons and wheel.    L >> I'm running Mozilla 1.1A on VMS 7.3 displayed on a Mac running Yellow Dog0 >> Linux.  Guess what -- the mousewheel works!!! >>K >> Now if it would just work in TPU I'd be set.  Anybody know how to set itg >uppK >> to scroll?  When I turn the wheel it says "No user mouse button defined,e* >> completing the default release action."  $ --Spud Demon		thundermaker$yahoo.com9 Posted from my own damn Alpha in my own damn living room u with my own damn software (tnr)o   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:38:17 -0400n' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>B4 Subject: RE: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660832@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Andrew,e  H <<< I can produce examples of apps that don't scale at all or scale veryH badly as well, but since these don't would not scale in a cluster either we can discard them.>>>n  D Sigh .. One more time - It depends on the application. Don't you getG tired of making grandiose statements that are not based in reality? SMPt> and clustered applications are two different strategies and=20  F >>> Very few people would suggest as you are trying to do that becauseE you have don the foundation course that you don't then need to do the  layers on top.>>>d  G Yada, yada yada .. I stated training was always a nice to have, but not9F always practical for many reasons. I take it by your response that SunG is making Solaris 9 training mandatory for any existing Solaris 8 AdmintA (even if they are experienced) before they can move to Solaris 9?   C Or perhaps more likely, as is the case with Oracle, that it is onlyo "recommended"?  F <<< ... the platform is supposed to host being adminned by people with? Oracle for Dummies or OPS for Dummies in their back pocket. >>>n  H So, are you calling experienced DBA's that don't have all the officially& recommend vendor courses "dummies"?=20  F My view is that I will always vote for an experienced DBA on one of myC teams over one that has all the "official" training, but lacks realu experience.a     Regards     
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantt Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration ServicesE Voice: 613-592-4660s Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyt7 [mailto:andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com]=20p Sent: July 12, 2002 10:09 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)         Main, Kerry wrote:   > Andrew, Andrew ..g >=20 >=20G >>>>Of course you have also forgotten the other rule of consolidations,r >>>>C > its better to consolidate on like version DBMS's so if the old=20nH > platform is running 8.1.6/8.0.5 etc then its better to consolidated to  = > 8.1.6 or whatever the version is on the target platform.<<<a >=20 > Better? Sure. Required? No.y >=20F > As you know, you can run different versions of Oracle on the same=20H > system. You can also use partitioning on systems that support it (like  I > GS Series) to run different OS / Oracle instances. In the case of GS=20>G > Series systems, you can also use OpenVMS Galaxy to share CPU's and=20oH > memory between the OS instances. You can also use the shared memory in  ? > OpenVMS Galaxy as an extremely fast cluster communications=20h( > interconnect between Oracle instances. >=20H > <<< The 70% number is what Oracle consultants that I have delt with on  A > 9i RAC put as being the upper bound for scalability for RAC.>>>  >=20I > Now, lets see .. Are you saying a 50+ cpu SMP system will scale 100%=20sH > with each additional CPU added? Ok, you and I both know that's not the  G > case. Ok, how about 85%? Perhaps - if tuned optimally. More likely=20PD > 75-85% is a more real life target, but it really depends on the=20 > application workload mix.  >=20     Well lets examine this claim.   D I can produce a ream of examples with actual scalability numbers forH machines going up to 70+ CPU's. These are all SMP/DBMS examples where noF coding changes have been made to make the app scale. Scalability is inF the high 90s%. Prior to the F15000 we had similar experiences with the E10K with 60+ CPU's   6 Your experience of scalability on large SMP systems is6 coloured by the fact that you are using GS's. With all7 their problems 85% is probably optimistic but that doest0 not mean that all SMP systems are like a GS box.  6 I can produce examples of apps that don't scale at all2 or scale very badly as well, but since these don't8 would not scale in a cluster either we can discard them.    . > So, it looks like we are not that far apart. >=20    6 So it looks like we are still as far appart as we were8 before. And the possible 70% scalability for Oracle in a cluster is after tuning.     > :-)u >=20E > <<< I am sure that isn't really the case and I am sure that in yournD > haste to produce a justification for you claims you have abandoned > normal HP practice.>>>=20k >=20F > Now, now - I was talking about experienced Customer Oracle DBA's not= > absolutely requiring OPS training .. But, you knew that.=20u >=20    < Yes I did realise that ! Still doesn't explain your apparent8 willingness to sanction people adminning a HA system who have not training to do so.g  : Most training is layered, Oracle OPS layered on Oracle DBA< UNIX systems admin layered on UNIX user etc. Very few people; would suggest as you are trying to do that because you havei< don the foundation course that you don't then need to do the layers on top.  < As I said you and jlsue are wonderfull, platform "solutions"= that arn't supported by the ISV that the platform is supposed ; to host being adminned by people with Oracle for Dummies ora? OPS for Dummies in their back pocket. I am sure that this isn'ts? HP's actual policy however much your posts tend to suggest that  it is.  = Incedentally you really should try reading Oracles own advice ; on the subject. The course material for RAC is pretty cleara9 and it also requires a course basis which is not just the 5 basic DBA set. You have to have been on the Oracle 9io7 Performance Tuning Course prior to the RAC course, thise4 is not a requirment for normal DBA's and should help7 you understand where deploying RAC may well differ fromn& a standard single instance deployment.           Regardsi   Andrew Harrisoni   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 13:35:04 -0700& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)7 Subject: Re: OpenSSL and certificates concept questionsd= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0207121235.74601f9c@posting.google.com>e  \ Rich Jordan <duodec@speakeasy.net> wrote in message news:<3D2E5D27.1020106@speakeasy.net>... > Rick Barry wrote:a7 > >>"Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com> wrote in message5; > >>news:cc5619f2.0207101500.14cde0fe@posting.google.com...w > >> > >>>The project is the secureK > >>>'http/https' client server item I asked about in a previous thread (to>? > >>>make sure the needed infrastructure was available on VMS).c > > ? > > The openssl-users@openssl.org mailing might be of help. ...g > > . > > Don't forget to check out www.openssl.org. > > .......... > > Rick Barry- > > Compaq Secure Web Server Development Team " > > OpenVMS Systems Software Group > > Hewlett Packard Companyr > > Nashua, NH >  Rick,o?      we've got the OpenSSL s_client program working to the testaF server, still having problems getting the actual locally compiled codeB (based on the sample code) to run due to problems getting the PRNGC (random number generator) seeded.  We can do that with the s_clientaD app with the -rand option, but still looking for a way to get SSL to? read an environment variable (symbol or logical?) to locate thebF 'random seed file' we provided to get s_client working; changes to theB openssl.cnf file also don't seem to make a difference.  Time to doC some source delving I guess.  Thanks for the pointers and the info;,D it'll take time to plow through all this but at least we have a path now.  E      How busy are the OpenSSL mailing lists?  I'm not looking forward5@ to adding another busy one to my daily email platter but will if needed.i   Rich   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:06:11 -0500n( From: Rich Jordan <duodec@speakeasy.net>7 Subject: Re: OpenSSL and certificates concept questionsn, Message-ID: <3D2FB543.9020500@speakeasy.net>   Rich Jordan wrote: > A >      we've got the OpenSSL s_client program working to the testtH > server, still having problems getting the actual locally compiled codeD > (based on the sample code) to run due to problems getting the PRNG% > (random number generator) seeded.  e  F Ok, found the bit about only the SSL command line utilities using the ? environment variable and it being the responsibility of a user sI application to perform its own seeding, so now our client sample is able sI to pull the certificate info from the server.  I hadn't locate the rand_ pD functions in the crypto API till today.  Now comes the bit where we H extract the various needed items of information from the certificate to B verify them, and proceed from there.  I hope the O'Reilly book is G useful, because we still have one 'big' roadblock that doesn't seem to - be working.,  ; Who designed the x.509 certs and the SSL API anyway?  Some nE byzantine-minded committee of figurative monkeys typing away for 100 eF years to see what came out?  What a mess.  Or maybe its just a normal 4 unix thing and I'm just not used to those anymore...   Rich   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:58:22 GMTh1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a  Subject: Re: OpenVMS Ambassadors' Message-ID: <3D2F716D.E19554E4@fsi.net>V   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:. > @ > "Sue Skonetski" <susan_skonetski@hotmail.com> wrote in message9 > news:857e9e41.0207101918.68b3e393@posting.google.com... F > > There have been some recent postings about the OpenVMS Ambassadors6 > > Program and I just wanted to set matters straight. > >e > I > This is not surprising. Much of the commentary in this forum comes fromr4 > folks who espouse a "ready," "fire," "aim" policy.  H Well, in my case, the reasoning is that its too easy to get caught up inE the procrastination trap: spend all your time aiming and never get to  "fire".V  D One of my mentors puts it this way: "I'd rather see a crooked furrow than a field unplowed".l   -- M David J. Dachtera/ dba DJE Systemsm http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 2002 18:37:09 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)fJ Subject: Re: OpenVMS on third-party platforms (was: Re: VMS port delayed!), Message-ID: <agn7kl$2kr3$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ? In article <SvEX8.331515$R61.295766@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,s4  "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes: |>O |> IMHO if VMS had the same massive apps portfolio that our friends at Sun havemM |> at their disposal, Sun would cease to be a significant factor in the grand  |> scheme of things.  C While I doubt it would make Sun or Unix go away, I too believe thateD a wider portfolio of common (and usable) apps would be great for theD furtherance of VMS.  Sadly, I have had little luck in finding peopleG interested in learning enough about VMS to actually port anything.  :-(    bill   -- cJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   c   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:14:34 -0700 (PDT)i. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>J Subject: Re: OpenVMS on third-party platforms (was: Re: VMS port delayed!)@ Message-ID: <20020712191434.10915.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com>  
 At the end...M  4 I asked here a few days ago, about what do you think- about a hacker with an Itanium server at home / with OVMS binaries... Nobody hacks OVMS becauser% it runs in Alphas (non easy to buy) !n But with Itanium....   Regards    FC      6 --- Bill Gunshannon <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote: > In article6 > <SvEX8.331515$R61.295766@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,6 >  "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes: > |>4 > |> IMHO if VMS had the same massive apps portfolio > that our friends at Sun have/ > |> at their disposal, Sun would cease to be as! > significant factor in the grando > |> scheme of things. > 4 > While I doubt it would make Sun or Unix go away, I > too believe that5 > a wider portfolio of common (and usable) apps wouldt > be great for the4 > furtherance of VMS.  Sadly, I have had little luck > in finding peopley5 > interested in learning enough about VMS to actually  > port anything.  :-(p >  > bill >  > -- o6 > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra > see) n.  Three wolvesr3 > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting onj > what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |- > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #includeD > <std.disclaimer.h>   .     =====n ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?. Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:40:12 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>bJ Subject: Re: OpenVMS on third-party platforms (was: Re: VMS port delayed!)I Message-ID: <01IX8.29945$WJf1.15874@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>p  ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in messageS: news:20020712191434.10915.qmail@web20204.mail.yahoo.com... > At the end...a >c6 > I asked here a few days ago, about what do you think/ > about a hacker with an Itanium server at homer1 > with OVMS binaries... Nobody hacks OVMS becaused' > it runs in Alphas (non easy to buy) !h > But with Itanium....  L Maybe they find and exploit some vulnerability. The trick will be finding anJ OpenVMS system on the web they can attack. After all, there's only 411,000I of them out there (if the published numbers are to be believed), and many G will be not connected to the net anyway (eg. national security, processoG control - though I know I will get taken to task on this). Many will be3% communicating via DECnet, not TCP/IP.J  I Those systems that are on the net are usually well protected by firewalls6I and other security provisions, and I would wager that of the tempting VMShI targets that exist, most, if not all, will have a pretty complete list ofb ECO patch kits installed.i  J The more appropriate question to ask is, will a hacker go after a platformA whose market share continues to decline or will they be like mostrL opportunists and hack where the action is and the opportunity to affect more systems is open to them?   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 2002 22:13:57 GMT( From: nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)J Subject: Re: OpenVMS on third-party platforms (was: Re: VMS port delayed!)0 Message-ID: <agnkb5$4cu$1@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>  , In article <agn7kl$2kr3$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>,- Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.scranton.edu> wrote: @ >In article <SvEX8.331515$R61.295766@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>,5 > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:o >|>eP >|> IMHO if VMS had the same massive apps portfolio that our friends at Sun haveN >|> at their disposal, Sun would cease to be a significant factor in the grand >|> scheme of things.e >hD >While I doubt it would make Sun or Unix go away, I too believe thatE >a wider portfolio of common (and usable) apps would be great for thejE >furtherance of VMS.  Sadly, I have had little luck in finding peoplexH >interested in learning enough about VMS to actually port anything.  :-(  $ Had I but world enough and time ....  A Frankly, if someone donated a suitable box or I could get one forsB an appropriate price, I should quite like VMS on my home computer.A Currently, it's Linux.  And, given the usual 36-hour day, I might ? well end up being a porting site for several significant codes._9 After all, I was for MVT.  But, lacking a 36-hour day :-(I  A And I suspect that you are looking for people rather younger thanD my 54 years!     Regards, Nick Maclaren,* University of Cambridge Computing Service,> New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email:  nmm1@cam.ac.uk/ Tel.:  +44 1223 334761    Fax:  +44 1223 334679m   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 2002 21:35:39 GMT& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)$ Subject: Re: OpenVMS Polls are back!- Message-ID: <agni3b$440@web.eng.baileynm.com>-  + In article <aglcr00a1d@enews2.newsguy.com>,01 Zane H. Healy <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote:jE > Now what I'd really like to see is an affordable iA64-based OpenVMSA > Workstation!  H Is that sentence syntactically sound? I didn't think IA64 and affordable> were allowed in the same sentence without a negation operator.   -- lO I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs.O of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate.  AlleL these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain.   `-_-'K Time for your nap.  | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag?    'U`    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:26:25 -0700 (PDT)o. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> Subject: Re: Oracle RDB on VMS@ Message-ID: <20020712182625.42384.qmail@web20206.mail.yahoo.com>  0 When Oracle will port the VMSINSTAL installation to Polycenter ?????      Regardsi   FC n' --- Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr ' <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:y > In article >r5 <20020712083054.36446.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com>,r$ > =?iso-8859-1?q?Tadimeti=20Keshav?=' > <keshav_tadimeti@yahoo.co.uk> writes:o > 
 > >Hello all,y6 > >I downloaded an RDB 7.0.6 ZIP file (62 MB file) for( > >Open VMS Alpha  from Oracle Technet.  > >x5 > >THe file looks too small. All it has is some fileso6 > >with a .a, .d extensions. I'd like to know if this,5 > >when installed, will be a working database server.e > Arer0 > >there any special steps to be followed during5 > >installation? Anyone who has tried this map pleasee > >provide help. e > . > Dude, you gotta read the installation guide. > 5 > VMS software meant to be installed using VMSINSTAL r. > (hint: @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL HELP ) comes in
 > multiple4 > savesets of which the only required one is the one
 > with the. > .A extension.  This contains a KITINSTAL.COM > procedure that's4 > executed by VMSINSTAL to unpack the other savesets > (if any) and$ > install the required components.   > 5 > To the best of my knowledge and belief the ZIP file  > on Technet is complete.t > 	 > -- Alan  >  >  >  >  >lO =============================================================================== 2 >  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU3 >  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or  > SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 6 >  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, > STANFORD, CA  94309-0210 >yO ===============================================================================e >      =====r ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazils fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?. Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:49:40 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>c Subject: Re: Oracle RDB on VMS' Message-ID: <3D2F24C4.4B41B545@aaa.com>   3 Can't see how that would give any ROI for Oracle...C   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    Fabio Cardoso wrote: > 2 > When Oracle will port the VMSINSTAL installation > to Polycenter ?????  >8   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:04:38 +0100 (BST)kF From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Tadimeti=20Keshav?= <keshav_tadimeti@yahoo.co.uk>0 Subject: re:oracleRDb on Open VMS install errors@ Message-ID: <20020713050438.38621.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com>   Hi all, 2 The zip file I downloaded contains the foll. fies:* 	Directory SYS$SYSDEVICE:[USER.KESHAV.ORD] 	  	JRDBAMVF070.A;1     	RDBAMVF070.A;1      	RDBAMVF070.B;1      	RDBAMVF070.C;1      	RDBAMVF070.D;1      	RDBAMVF070.E;1      	RDBSGA_70_AMV.BCK;1 	SQLSRVAMVF070.A;1   	SQSCLIA070.A;1      	  	Total of 9 files. 	  	t6 On the technet site, there is no Installation guide in, the same download page as the ZIP file. So I/ downloaded the installation manual from the RDBn documentation site for RDB 7.1/ I downloaded this ZIP file by right clicking ino6 Internet Explorer and saving to Windows. I unziped the5 ZIP file on Windows and did an FTP to the VMS machinee Ds10 in BINARY mode. 7  2 Yes, I did invoke @SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL RDBAMVF070" DKA100:[USR,KESHAV.ORD] OPTIONS N - where RDBAMVF070 is the name of the .A file.     THe error I get is:o4 %BACKUP-E-INVRECSIZ, invalid record size in save set4 %BACKUP-E-INVBLKSIZE, invalid block size in save set4 %BACKUP-E-INVRECSIZ, invalid record size in save set4 %BACKUP-E-INVBLKSIZE, invalid block size in save set4 %BACKUP-E-INVRECSIZ, invalid record size in save set4 %BACKUP-E-INVBLKSIZE, invalid block size in save set4 %BACKUP-E-INVRECSIZ, invalid record size in save set) %BACKUP-W-NOFILES, no files selected frome, SYS$SYSDEVICE:[USER.KESHAV.ORD]RDBAMVF070.A;. %VMSINSTAL-E-NOSAVESET, Save set  A  cannot be	 restored.s    6 I can't even do a backup/list RDBAMV070.A/save_set. It also gives errors:  # $ backup/list rdbamvf070.A/save_seto Listing of save set(s)  4 %BACKUP-E-INVBLKSIZE, invalid block size in save set4 %BACKUP-E-INVRECSIZ, invalid record size in save set4 %BACKUP-E-INVRECSIZ, invalid record size in save set4 %BACKUP-E-INVBLKSIZE, invalid block size in save set   WHat could have gone wrong?    Thanks Keshav  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?+ Everything you'll ever need on one web pages- from News and Sport to Email and Music Chartsl http://uk.my.yahoo.com   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 16:43:14 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: RECALL suggestion= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0207121543.3e05e801@posting.google.com>   e goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) wrote in message news:<3d2efd18.12164101@news.process.com>...e/ > Just to add my own "Me, too" message here....- > F > My SD program (loosely based on an old Alan Zirkle SD program) keepsB > a stack of directories visited, as well as allowing all sorts of > shortcuts  > * >   SD ^      Go up one subdirectory levelG >   SD @      Go to top level of current directory (enter TOP for help)14 >   SD .      Go to login default directory and disk; >   SD #n     Go to directory in n'th entry of the SD stackcB >   SD #      Set default to stack entry #1 (toggle stack entries): >   SD >X     Set default to [z.X] when currently in [z.y]( >   SD .X     Set default to [current.X]7 >   SD X.Y.Z  Set default to [X.Y.Z] (enter X for help)M5 >   SD %      Push the current default onto the stacki6 >   SD *      Show the SD stack (enter STACK for help)+ >   SD ?      Show this SD help informationB& >   SD        Show the current default > N > Directory names can be abbreviated, and, of course, multiple commands can be > combined:  > 
 >  $ SD #3 >Xe > K > Visit previous directory #3 then move over to the directory starting withl > X at that same level.c > M > The ability to shortcut directory names makes life a *lot* easier.  InsteadR > of:n > - > $ SD .MULTINET_PLUS.MULTINET.KERNEL.DRIVERSt >  > I can do:  >  > $ SD .MUL.MUL.K.Dt    D As far as what makes life easier, it varies from person to person. ID hate shifting, esp. to just get one character in the middle of many,B like when typing !@#$%^&*()_+ characters. I find typing alphabetic5 characters easier than @#$%^&* characters so I prefer       "UP" over "SD ^", i  )    "OVER SOMEDIR" over "SD >SOMEDIR", and       "TOP" over "TO @",   F e.g. The English versions are also easier to remember than what @#$%^&@ symbols do.  So I've written my own stuff to be able to do thoseE things. A hunt-and-peck typist, OTOH, might prefer just the opposite!-4 But I do appreciate not having to type the brackets.  F The more it's just letters, and maybe some numbers, the better for me.  A I like the two-step combo command. I'll add that to mine one day,i maybe.  D I also -- and I suppose everyone else does -- hate to have to repeat@ something I already did. That's why I love recall stacks. (And ID actually think DOSKEY is very cool, which is probably the best thingE to ever come out of Microsoft [whether they wrote it or not]). I alsohB think it's cool to have a set default program assign easy-to-type,D easy-to-remember logical names to the defaults in the default recall9 stack so you can use recently visited defaults with ease.e  E I guess many of us write our own set default programs to take care ofnD what annoys each of us the most and what we encounter the most. I'veA seen some features in other set default programs that I like, butiC don't want to give up the features of my own (many of which are not D described here, though I have posted them!). Thanks for posting just	 the same.-   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman5 afeldman gfigroup comI   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:52:28 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  Subject: Re: RECALL suggestion' Message-ID: <3D2F700B.F815C7BD@fsi.net>h  : I have a DCL-based CD that does most of this (no history):   Hunter Goatley wrote:8 > / > Just to add my own "Me, too" message here....i > F > My SD program (loosely based on an old Alan Zirkle SD program) keepsB > a stack of directories visited, as well as allowing all sorts of > shortcutsa > * >   SD ^      Go up one subdirectory level   $ CD ..9 $ CD [-]  . It also supports the "grand-parent" directory:   $ CD ...	 $ CD [--]S  G >   SD @      Go to top level of current directory (enter TOP for help)    $ CD \ $ CD "/"
 $ CD [000000]o  4 >   SD .      Go to login default directory and disk   $ CD SYS$LOGIN   > [snip]: >   SD >X     Set default to [z.X] when currently in [z.y]  	 $ CD ..\X 	 $ CD ../Xn
 $ CD [-.X]  ( >   SD .X     Set default to [current.X]   $ CD .\X $ CD ./X	 $ CD [.X]   7 >   SD X.Y.Z  Set default to [X.Y.Z] (enter X for help)u  
 $ CD X\Y\Z
 $ CD X/Y/Z
 $ CD [.X.Y.Z]a   > [SNIP]& >   SD        Show the current default   $ CD  H No history and no abbreviations, but does accept VMS, DOS or UNIX syntaxG (within the limits of the parameters that can be passed to .COM proc.).mC It does, however, use F$PARSE() to verify that a target path existso' before doing the resulting SET DEFAULT.t   FWIW...    -- - David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/@   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 07:24:48 +0930t/ From: Mark Daniel <mark.daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au>l Subject: un-INITing a tape?n/ Message-ID: <3D2F5028.61FD4034@wasd.vsm.com.au>.  ; Any way to un-INITIALIZE a (DAT) tape, or recover the data?e   OpenVMS Alpha V7.3  5 (I'm surprised I've never needed to ask this before.)    As always, TIA.   dF +--------------------------------------------------------------------+D  Mark Daniel                         http://wasd.vsm.com.au/adelaideE  mailto:Mark.Daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au (Mark.Daniel@dsto.defence.gov.au)iF +--------------------------------------------------------------------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 19:49:17 GMTd1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> - Subject: Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd... ? Message-ID: <1pGX8.332389$R61.296341@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>V  3 "Jay E. Morris" <jem@epsilon3.com> wrote in message)% news:3D1FA8C6.2060801@epsilon3.com...i > Terry C. Shannon wrote: H > > So I was wondering. What would happen if I actually formed a limitedC > > liability corporation (one with no assets) called VMS Marketing  Volunteers,OK > > LLC? The thought has entered my mind, but the legal ramifications might  be > > onerous indeed.  > >GG > > One new Volunteer has enlisted and ordered her cards already ($8.951 total9J > > cost for two-week shipping). This could be the start of a tsunami that will  > > engulf downstream marketing! > >s > > -- > > Terry C. Shannon > > Consultant and Publisher > > Shannon Knows HPC & > > PLEASE NOTE MY *NEW* EMAIL ADDRESS! > > email: terryshannon@attbi.comf8 > > Web (info on SKHPC):  www.openvms.org, www.tru64.org > >, > >  > - > So, does it count if we make our own cards?d >a/ > http://www.epsilon3.com/images/vms_evang2.jpgc >f  J But of course it does....  after all, this newsgroup needs more volunteers7 than it needs a Romper Room full of brain-dead whiners.-   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:31:24 -0700 (PDT)a. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>K Subject: Re: VMS vs. MVS (was: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts)t@ Message-ID: <20020712183124.33450.qmail@web20203.mail.yahoo.com>  2 What I would like in OpenVMS from MVS is something2 like CA's Roscoe AWS and RPF Panels... was easy to# make screens with the RPF Panels...@0 And to use an AWS under DCL would be interesting  
 FETCH file ATTACH   etc ..._   Regards    FC Y --- "Bradford J. Hamilton"# <sy18889@rabmbit.famrp.cosm> wrote:c
 > Hi John, > 5 > Do you have access to Google?  If so, the following2 > c.o.v. post shows that at 2 > least *one* employee of HP has an idea of how to > contrast VMS vs. MVS:  > 4 > (warning - URL is wrapped - if the URL fails, then > do a search in1 > groups.google.com for "keith parris" and "dlm",y > (8-april, 2002)):  >  >SO http://groups.google.com/groups?q=keith+parris+dlm+group:*vms*&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTFc > I -8&oe=UTF-8&selm=6ec1251e.0204080937.47cad9eb%40posting.google.com&rnum=2  >  > In article >h< <p63X8.7112$6DW1.3439@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,' > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:u > > 5 > > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrotea > in message, > > news:mnYW8.140116$Uu2.32124@sccrnsc03...	 > <snip>>n > > - > > And as to MVS, I'd be really surprised if $ > Compaq/HP has anyone left on staff5 > > who knows how to spell MVS in a competitive salesn > situation, much less can, > > accurately speak about the strengths and > weaknesses of it vs. OpenVMS.  > > 	 > <snip> c > >  > -- n > Bradford J. Hamilton( > braMdhamAilPtoSn@aMtAtPbi.cSom		(home)( > sMy1A88P89S@rabMbit.fAmPr.coSm		(work) > 1 > "All opinions that I express are my own, not myn
 > employer's"  > "Lose the MAPS"f     =====i ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazili fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?. Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:32:43 -0400:- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>)K Subject: Re: VMS vs. MVS (was: Re: McKinley tops SpecFP AND SpecInt charts) , Message-ID: <3D2F5901.88AF26FE@videotron.ca>   Fabio Cardoso wrote: > 4 > What I would like in OpenVMS from MVS is something4 > like CA's Roscoe AWS and RPF Panels... was easy to% > make screens with the RPF Panels...C  I ALL-IN-1 had it. FMS for forms designs, and A1 for the scripting and dataa access behind the screens.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 02 12:28:43 PST From: mckinneyj@cpva.saic.comtL Subject: Re: WATCHER (was Re: Command Procedure to logoff inactive users...)( Message-ID: <qjgH6RnIlVKz@cpva.saic.com>  ? In article <OF315413A4.46722D0B-ON85256BF4.0056813F@metso.com>,r  norm.raphael@metso.com writes:i > % > I use WATCHER and it calls $FORCEX.nG > I have found that one of my applications requires that I call $FORCEXo  > twice to get processes to DCL.J > Recently I tried this on the whole user population of that application = > and J > found that one of the processes was still not at DCL after this double = > hit.1 > Is there any way to figure out what's going on.oH > ($FORCEX does not guarantee that a success status has forced an exit.) > -Norm   D Could it be that the target process that requires the double $forcexG is executing a command procedure where once the image exits a 2nd imageoH is activated? Or maybe a lengthy exit handler in the image is in invokedH in response to the initial $forcex? Do you have the application's source code?   E What does SDA say about the process after the delivery of the initial:' $forcex? Is there a force exit pending?i   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jul 02 12:34:10 PST From: mckinneyj@cpva.saic.comaL Subject: Re: WATCHER (was Re: Command Procedure to logoff inactive users...)( Message-ID: <vKC0gfsJhDT4@cpva.saic.com>  H > ($FORCEX does not guarantee that a success status has forced an exit.)  H The success status returned by $forcex indicates the successful queueingG of the AST requesting that the process exit the running image. There issG no guarantee that the AST will/can be delivered (or that the image willo exit).   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jul 2002 19:27:30 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)1 Subject: Re: XP1000 667Mhz USD2995 !!!!! Incoming = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0207121827.7ffa2236@posting.google.com>-  Z "Island" <sales@islandco.com> wrote in message news:<uim1jd5ddshc5a@news.supernews.com>...$ > Order now - only 30 coming in !!!! >  >  > Configured as follows: >  > XP1000 667Mhz 4MB Cachee > 1GB Memory > 18GB Disk Drivea > CDROMp' > 3DLabs VX1 Oxygen 32MB PCI Video Cardn > Floppy
 > Keyboard > Mousen > 
 > Only $2995*-G > (*FYI - the cpu daughter card - dealer to dealer price is over $3000)t >  > . > Add a new Viewsonic E70 17" Monitor for $230 > (Not flatpanel)8 >  >  > -- > David B Turner > Sales Dpti! > Island Computers US Corporationo > 2700 Gregory Street  > Suite 180Z > Savannah GA 31404f > Tel: 912 447 6622  > Fax: 912 201 0096  > sales@islandco.com > www.islandco.com) > http://www.islandco.com/legal-email.htmn >   ; gee Dave, according to the whiners on this board, I thoughti; VMS was too expensive to run unless you are a big corp. ande; buy gs160's or higher ... actually this box would blow awaym8 any competitor's single cpu or even dual or quad cpus in: some cases ... guess they just don't get it ... VMS tco is* the lowest around, even for small co's ...   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.382 ************************