1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 20 Jul 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 396       Contents:? Re: CLI access to HSV's (was: Re: StorageWorks HSG controllers) ! Cygwin/xfree86 and VMS/DecWindows % Re: Cygwin/xfree86 and VMS/DecWindows  Re: DCL Question Re: DCL Question Re: DCL Question$ Re: filename argument in java on VMS$ Re: filename argument in java on VMS: HSV snapshots vs. Spiralog ? (Was: CLI access to HSV's...)> Re: HSV snapshots vs. Spiralog ? (Was: CLI access to HSV's...)> Re: HSV snapshots vs. Spiralog ? (Was: CLI access to HSV's...)> Re: HSV snapshots vs. Spiralog ? (Was: CLI access to HSV's...)> Re: HSV snapshots vs. Spiralog ? (Was: CLI access to HSV's...) Re: I wanna buy this book... Re: McKinley Cometh...8 Re: Old CompuServe VAXforum libraries archived anywhere?+ Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow) + Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)  Re: PHIGS - what is it?  Re: PS or PDF output5 Re: PW600au problem (probably h/w) - long and tedious  Re: SMTP question 8 Re: Terminal Emu to MicroVaxII - typed characters effect Re: Terminal input from DCL 
 TKZ60 SCSI ID H Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 features not in VMS ?, was: Re: Looking for terminal  Re: VAX to Alpha migration tools Re: VMS commitment! Re: [Hobbyist] User account setup ! Re: [Hobbyist] User account setup   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:14:33 -0500 & From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>H Subject: Re: CLI access to HSV's (was: Re: StorageWorks HSG controllers)8 Message-ID: <eesgju4hbir9vgidm4fpteld2pqmomrual@4ax.com>  5 On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 01:53:43 GMT, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:     > G >IMO, the point is that the loss if CLI and/or virtual console terminal % >will "break" many sites' procedures.   ? First off, there SSSU for HSV scripting.  I believe it's on the  platform kit for the OS.   > G >A former site of mine has backup procedures that are 100% dependent on F >being able to command HSx's from within an OpenVMS batch job to splitI >mirror-sets. They can't afford the performance degradation of shadow-set I >merging (50+ shadow-sets, can't guarantee they'll always mini-merge), so B >this was the only way to guarantee that would never happen again.  C Second, the HSV is VIRTUAL storage.... you don't split-off mirrors.  It just doesn't work this way.  C Unfortunately we don't have EVM support for the HSV yet, as this is 9 how most of our EBS solutions integrate with the process.   A You can write host-based scripts using SSSU, but in spite of what E Andrew's been trying to imply, I don't necessarily recommend it since 4 HP can't support all of the issues that may come up.  E On the other hand, I just implemented some backups for a customer who B insisted on using it (from VMS no less).  It worked.  We'd quiesceB their application, then run a script to take all of the snapshots,D present them to the backup host, and then use SYSMAN IO AUTO to make' them available for mounting and backup.      > F >For many sites, it's not a question of "would like", it's a matter of >"*MUST* have"!   < SSSU is available and does work.  Again, though, you may useE snapshots, or snapclones for backups.  However there is no concept of . a "mirror" that you can break-off for backups.  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq - (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------    Date: 19 Jul 2002 12:53:50 -0700# From: tadamsmar@aol.com (Tom Adams) * Subject: Cygwin/xfree86 and VMS/DecWindows= Message-ID: <793af3df.0207191153.747013c6@posting.google.com>   0 Will CYGWIN/FREE86 work with VMS and DecWindows?  * How can they be configured to communicate?  C Can it be done with and without Pathworks? How is it done each way?    Thanks for any input.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 20:50:01 GMT  From: Jordi Guillaumes i Pons . Subject: Re: Cygwin/xfree86 and VMS/DecWindows, Message-ID: <3D387A58.2030004@nospam.please>   Tom Adams wrote:2 > Will CYGWIN/FREE86 work with VMS and DecWindows?, > How can they be configured to communicate?E > Can it be done with and without Pathworks? How is it done each way?  > Thanks for any input.   = It will work, although some DEC fonts doesn't have a XFree86  5 equivalent,and some things will not look very pretty.   G My recipe is as follows (I'm sure it can be enhanced in a milion ways):   + 1) Open two CygWin windows under windows ;)   0 2) In one of them use the following enchantment:  
 $ XWin -ac  F 3) In the other, telnet to your VMS machine. Now you have two chances:  7 a) Do a SET DISPLAY/CREATE/NODE=yourpcname/TRANSP=tcpip D b) $ CREATE/TERMINAL/DETACH at your discretion, or MCR DECW$VUE, or , whatever Decwindows program you want to run.   -OR-  ! a) Login to the VMS box as SYSTEM 6 b) $SET DISPLAY/CREATE/NODE=yourpcname/TRANSPORT=tcpip c) $ MCR DECW$STARTLOGIN  I Using the first method you won't have any window manager (you can enable  G the default XFree86 twm using the usual "unix" way). Using the second,  > you'll get the DecWindows login widget and you'll have a full F DECWindows/CDE desktop. The window manager will be running on the VMS G side, so the widgets will be managed thru the network (I've been doing  L this using a uVAX 3300 over 10mbps ethernet and the performance is not bad).   Hope that this helps.    JG   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Jul 2002 14:19:42 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: DCL Question < Message-ID: <343f30ae.0207191319.21afeb8@posting.google.com>  r SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) wrote in message news:<343f30ae.0207190958.bfe3b85@posting.google.com>...e > "Ransom Fitch" <rlfitch@peakpeak.com> wrote in message news:<000901c22f2c$ee7581a0$0a00a8c0@w2k>... " > > From "OpenVMS DCL Dictionary",L > > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73final/9996/9996pro_057.html#index_x_ > > 1188 > > I > > Use the SET NOON command to override default error checking. When SET L > > NOON is in effect, the command interpreter continues to place the statusK > > code value in $STATUS and the severity level in $SEVERITY, but does not D > > perform any action based on the values. As a result, the commandK > > procedure continues to execute no matter how many errors are returned.   > >  > > Last sentence says it all. >  > / > Except for at least the following exception!:  >  >  > $ TYPE NOON.COM  > $    SET NOON  > $    GOTO _NOSUCHLABEL > $    SHOW TIME > 	 > $ @NOON  > $    SET NOON  > $    GOTO _NOSUCHLABELP > %DCL-W-USGOTO, target of GOTO not found - check spelling and presence of label > $  >  > 4 > Even SET NOON is no match for GOTO _NOSUCHLABEL!!! > ' > There's also the disk failure error.      F Of course I mean failure of the disk on which the command file residesF and the process needs to read more of the command file after said disk failure.    $ > Then there's the system crash. :-)    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman  afeldman gfigroup com    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 23:18:37 GMT ( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: DCL Question + Message-ID: <3D389E9E.FF388B06@pacbell.net>    James wrote: > E > Is possible to write a DCL batch file so when ever you encounter an 6 > error, just resume to the next command and continue?  
 How about   $ on error then gosub show_error $... $ 
 $ SHOW_ERROR:  $ write sys$output $STATUS  $ on error then gosub show_error $ return --     Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com) 
 San Francisco    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:26:23 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>  Subject: Re: DCL Question ' Message-ID: <3D38A01C.FEAFB525@Free.fr>    It has an equivalent:    $ on warning then continue   D.   Nic Clews wrote: >  > James wrote: > > G > > Is possible to write a DCL batch file so when ever you encounter an 8 > > error, just resume to the next command and continue? >  > $ SET NOON   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:58:16 -0300 # From: "June Young" <jy@dymaxion.ca> - Subject: Re: filename argument in java on VMS 2 Message-ID: <sb_Z8.39372$Z6.469626@nnrp1.uunet.ca>   Yes, thanks,0 I rerun @sys$comman:[java131.com]java$131_setup,
 now I get: java version "1.3.1"0 Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard EditionA Classic VM (build 1.3.1-3, 03/29/2002-10:47, native threads, jit)     I also set up the java$classpath sh log java$classpath =    "JAVA$CLASSPATH" = "DYM$DISK:[DYMAX.LUCENE]LUCENE-1_2.JAR"  (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) 7         = "DYM$DISK:[DYMAX.LUCENE]LUCENE-DEMOS-1_2.JAR"          = "[]"  K I know the class path should be right,because it works on NT, but on vms, I  get:  5 java org.apache.lucene.demo.IndexFiles lucene_src/src : Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError:! org/apache/lucene/demo/indexfiles   , It seems my class path setting is not right?   I even tried the following:  java -classpath L dym$disk/dymax/lucene/lucene-1_2.jar:dym$disk/dymax/lucene/lucene-demos-1_2.' jar:. org.apache.lucene.demo.IndexFiles : Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError:! org/apache/lucene/demo/indexfiles    Headache! Headache!    June  : "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:7QfjPsfQmjqH@eisner.encompasserve.org... A > In article <b5UZ8.39243$Z6.467737@nnrp1.uunet.ca>, "June Young"  <jy@dymaxion.ca> writes: > > I tried:? > >  $ java org.apache.lucene.demo.IndexFiles lucene_src/src=20 F > > %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer = > > parameters > >  \LUCENE_SRC\  > ; >    Do a "show symbol java" and "show symbol/global java".  > F >    It should be a lgobal symbol something like (assuming JDK 1.3.1): > 3 >   JAVA == "$ sys$common:[java$131.bin]java$java "  > D >    I'll bet someone stuck a "run" in their after the first $.  Put, >    it back the way HP(Compaq(DEC)) had it. > H >    If it's not defined as a symbol, then you're picking up the definedH >    verb from an older java installation, and one that's bad, too.  YouI >    need @sys$common:[java$131.com]java$131_setup in the system-wide, or ! >    at least your own login.com.  > 3 >    Most likely I'll bet someone did a bad edit to C >    sys$common:[java$131.com]java$131_setup.com after the install.  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:56:05 GMT ( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>- Subject: Re: filename argument in java on VMS + Message-ID: <3D389955.53D75F42@pacbell.net>    > June Young wrote:  > N > I just installed java on VMS and my test program takes a "directory" name an > argument.  > ' > The directory is at [.lucene_src.src]  > 
 > I tried:: >  $ java org.apache.lucene.demo.IndexFiles lucene_src/srcM > %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer parameters  >  \LUCENE_SRC\ < > $ java org.apache.lucene.demo.IndexFiles [.lucene_src.src]M > %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer parameters ; > $ java org.apache.lucene.demo.IndexFiles "lucene_src/src" M > %DCL-W-MAXPARM, too many parameters - reenter command with fewer parameters  >  \"lucene_src/src"\  >  > None of them work. >    Try < $ java "org.apache.lucene.demo.IndexFiles" [.lucene_src.src] --     Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com) 
 San Francisco    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:41:49 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> C Subject: HSV snapshots vs. Spiralog ? (Was: CLI access to HSV's...) ' Message-ID: <3D38798D.78D4D50F@aaa.com>   0 I'm I wrong, or isn't this "snapshot" thing very' much what Spiralog was supposed to be ?    Jan-Erik Sderholm.    jlsue wrote: > G > On the other hand, I just implemented some backups for a customer who D > insisted on using it (from VMS no less).  It worked.  We'd quiesceD > their application, then run a script to take all of the snapshots,F > present them to the backup host, and then use SYSMAN IO AUTO to make) > them available for mounting and backup.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:10:03 -0500 & From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>G Subject: Re: HSV snapshots vs. Spiralog ? (Was: CLI access to HSV's...) 8 Message-ID: <4ovgjuk1a55lfjfgscu08vasra1lrjmlr7@4ax.com>  > Well, snapshot is a block-level copy-on-write (cow) algorithm.F This is more in line with Snapshot services, which also was originally! engineered to be OS-based on VMS.   F I was functioning from the "customer" side of the products at the timeF (i.e., I have no inside info), but IIRC there were coordination and/or/ scalability issues in a VMScluster environment.   ? I believe that it did lead to a Windows NT product for Snapshot  Services eventually.  D Now it is being done by the hardware and any OS can benefit from it.  D (Note, I do not mean to imply that the same work done for host-basedE snapshots was migrated to hardware, I'd have no idea if that actually 
 happened.)   D On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:41:49 +0200, Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote:  1 >I'm I wrong, or isn't this "snapshot" thing very ( >much what Spiralog was supposed to be ? >  >Jan-Erik Sderholm. > 
 >jlsue wrote:  >>  H >> On the other hand, I just implemented some backups for a customer whoE >> insisted on using it (from VMS no less).  It worked.  We'd quiesce E >> their application, then run a script to take all of the snapshots, G >> present them to the backup host, and then use SYSMAN IO AUTO to make * >> them available for mounting and backup.  ) Not speaking for anyone, certainly not HP - (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 02:51:36 +0200 9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> G Subject: Re: HSV snapshots vs. Spiralog ? (Was: CLI access to HSV's...) ' Message-ID: <3D38B418.E4B70A64@aaa.com>   H Dosn't the "OpenVMS File Services for NT" (or whatever it is/was called) have? something like "snapshots" also ? And that *does* run on VMS...    Jan-Erik Sderholm.    David Webb wrote:  >  > E > It is interesting to note that as well as a product appearing on NT C > the cloning facility in Tru64s Advanced File system looks awfully J > similar to the proposed VMS Snapshot services - and of course that works > in a cluster environment.  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:15:36 +0100 # From: David Webb <d.webb@mdx.ac.uk> G Subject: Re: HSV snapshots vs. Spiralog ? (Was: CLI access to HSV's...) ( Message-ID: <3D38ABA8.5060600@mdx.ac.uk>   jlsue wrote:  @ > Well, snapshot is a block-level copy-on-write (cow) algorithm.H > This is more in line with Snapshot services, which also was originally# > engineered to be OS-based on VMS.  > H > I was functioning from the "customer" side of the products at the timeH > (i.e., I have no inside info), but IIRC there were coordination and/or1 > scalability issues in a VMScluster environment.  > A > I believe that it did lead to a Windows NT product for Snapshot  > Services eventually. >     C It is interesting to note that as well as a product appearing on NT A the cloning facility in Tru64s Advanced File system looks awfully H similar to the proposed VMS Snapshot services - and of course that works in a cluster environment.   
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University    F > Now it is being done by the hardware and any OS can benefit from it. > F > (Note, I do not mean to imply that the same work done for host-basedG > snapshots was migrated to hardware, I'd have no idea if that actually  > happened.) >   F > On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 22:41:49 +0200, Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> > wrote: >  > 2 >>I'm I wrong, or isn't this "snapshot" thing very) >>much what Spiralog was supposed to be ?  >> >>Jan-Erik Sderholm.  >> >>jlsue wrote: >>H >>>On the other hand, I just implemented some backups for a customer whoE >>>insisted on using it (from VMS no less).  It worked.  We'd quiesce E >>>their application, then run a script to take all of the snapshots, G >>>present them to the backup host, and then use SYSMAN IO AUTO to make * >>>them available for mounting and backup. >>>  > + > Not speaking for anyone, certainly not HP / > (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)	 >    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jul 2002 12:08:30 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>G Subject: Re: HSV snapshots vs. Spiralog ? (Was: CLI access to HSV's...)u- Message-ID: <87znwnxcqo.fsf@prep.synonet.com>   ( jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> writes:  F > Now it is being done by the hardware and any OS can benefit from it.  HF > (Note, I do not mean to imply that the same work done for host-based> > snapshots was migrated to hardware, I'd have no idea if that > actually happened.)   H So how does the HSV ensure that *at the `split time'* all of the on diskB data is consistant? That there are no suprises in the block cache?   -- m< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.y@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:52:04 -0400I; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>n% Subject: Re: I wanna buy this book...i$ Message-ID: <3d386e1d$1@news.si.com>   >I want buy this book: >e> > - WRITING VAX/VMS APPLICATIONS USING PASCAL - THEOS DE KLERK  L http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/155558067X/qid=1027108336/sr=1-1/ref= sr_1_1/002-9385472-6435254 --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comkA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com@= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventa< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 17:02:38 -0700t- From: "Max Domeika" <Max.J.Domeika@intel.com>t Subject: Re: McKinley Cometh...i* Message-ID: <aha7r0$i5t@news.or.intel.com>  B Point taken.  SPEC is working on CPU2004.  I'm not involved in theK discussions like I was for CPU2000.  I wonder if anyone is taking your (andaK others') observations  to the committee and seeing what kind of mileage cane be had.t  I I should add that I was well aware that a AOS would run faster than a SOAh4 for this application during the CPU2000 discussions.  J I believe for SPEComp2001 art was modified to turn the data structure from an AOS into an SOA.    Max     @ "Terje Mathisen" <terje.mathisen@hda.hydro.com> wrote in message' news:3D37BE86.CEAC9CAE@hda.hydro.com...t > Chris Ruemmler wrote:w0 > [snipped art memory reorganization discussion]G > > Unfortunately, in C, doing this type of optimization safely is veryn > > difficult, thussI > > many things disable the optimization.  I mentioned earlier that usingV "free"G > > to deallocate the memory causes the optimization to not be enabled.a Also,o > [snip]I > > Also, in Sun's case, the optimization only works for malloc'ed memoryeB > > and not for a data structure allocated statically in the code. >'I > This is the one part I really hate: To make it work you have to malloc,U' > but then you must also skip the free!g >yH > This is guaranteed to make any reasonable lint or runtime checker very
 > mad at you.r >"H > I.e. when I do this even for throw-away programs like the random orderI > memory latency tester we've discussed recently, Boundschecker complains- > about memory leaks.  > :-(  >J > Terje2 >:C > PS. I really don't like to write code that cannot compile and run8G > cleanly, with maximum warning level. If I have to do something reallyoG > ugly, I'll disable the specific warning(s) around the offending code, # > and then re-enable it afterwards.  > --" > - <Terje.Mathisen@hda.hydro.com>B > "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching" >- >-   ------------------------------    Date: 19 Jul 2002 13:22:44 -0700, From: colive@technologEase.com (Chris Olive)A Subject: Re: Old CompuServe VAXforum libraries archived anywhere? < Message-ID: <b10654c6.0207191222.cb48d1b@posting.google.com>  _ Stuart Fuller <stufuller@usa.net> wrote in message news:<rc72ha.7hq.ln@dadsys1.fuller.local>...i > Howard S Shubs wrote:h > 4 > > In article <luvvga.mva.ln@dadsys1.fuller.local>,- > >  Stuart Fuller <stufuller@usa.net> wrote:m > >  > >> Wish me luck. > > 	 > > Luck!r > >  > / > Unfortunately, not enough.  I can't find 'em.n > 
 >         Stu   E Stu Fuller...  Now THERE'S a name from the old VAXforum days...  It'sn@ been a while, hasn't it?  Maybe 10 years since I was last on theF VAXforum anyway.  And I've been outta VMS for 6 years (circa v6.2) and@ back in again.  Lost all my old software practically that was onF TK70s.  (Temp. changes from 9 different moves more than likely.)  ThisC piece of code I'm looking for isn't the only thing I lost, but it'sA  something I could use right now.  A An old VAXforum SysOp and you don't have an archive of VAXforum? n Tisk, tisk... 8-)o  ? Thanks all for trying though.  If any of you do happen find any.E archives and can find DMPSYM, that'd be great.  A listing of what you F have might even be better.  I might be able to recover some other work that is still missing...   Thanks!l Chrisn -----r Chris Olive  colive(at)technologEase(dot)comu   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:59:10 -0500 & From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)8 Message-ID: <6mrgju0s7rqcag5fa2jl627hgugnij0465@4ax.com>  E On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:02:20 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy>4 <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote:   >g >e
 >jlsue wrote:0 >0I >> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:05:04 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> 	 >> wrote:s >> n >> 0# >>>I've in no way asserted that SMP K >>>*substitutes* for clustering in terms of availability, just that *within3N >>>whatever availability constraints exist* (e.g., that might require at leastK >>>two clustered systems plus whatever additional systems one might need tocO >>>keep performance acceptable should one fail) larger individual cluster nodeshH >>>are usually preferable to greater numbers of smaller cluster nodes.   >>>h >> uG >> Well, I have several points of experience that contradict this view.r< >> There have been quite a few environments where small, VMSD >> workstation-based clusters of 15-20 nodes out-performed a single,G >> large, SMP-based solution, and did it at a much, much lower cost and  >> higher availability.O >>  B >> For example, a VAXstation Model 90, fully configured with 128MBF >> memory, FDDI card, and unlimited openvms user licenses could be hadI >> for less than $50K back in the early 1990s.  And the license units fordH >> layered products was 10 (or 20) units.  This CPU was similar to a VAXH >> 4000-610 system with a license rating of 1200 units and costing about >> 8X as much. >>  G >> We'd cluster these together with AlphaServer 3000-800s that 'served' < >> the disks to the cluster.  All connected to a gigaswitch. >> -G >> Performance was phenomenal, availability was fantastic, and cost wasu >> amazingly low.j >> R >> L >e >o; >Right so what was the workload, you are great at this kindt: >of "reference" which does not have enough information for? >anyone to make an informed judgment but less good at providingc >the full deck.b  = You are so full of shit it keeps coming out of your keyboard. C I put the same amount of "detail" into my reference that was in then quoted one.e  C Just to keep you a little more informed, the clustered environments-; include over 250 different applications.  Some of them were > e-mail/messaging, some were scientific & statistics, some were0 database - both Rdb and Oracle (V6.x varieties). >eA >And why would license units be a direct measure of performance ?. >   A Hmm... I  was trying to show scalability, cost, and availability.aF License units refer to cost - and if you're talking about Oracle, this is a big issue.d  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq-- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 14:55:13 -0500t& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>4 Subject: Re: Only 20% drop in VMS systems (was: wow)8 Message-ID: <vhrgju8ajme8h5aia7r8gt1e0p4gmm1ib2@4ax.com>  B Once again, Andrew, you show your incredible inability to read and understand.l  B You can not prove me incorrect in what I say - mostly because I amF speaking about real-world experience - so you try to twist things with! innuendo and disparaging remarks.L  ? Please don't waste our time with more of this garbage until you1 actually have a clue."      E On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:31:34 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 4 <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote:   >r >r
 >jlsue wrote:n >rH >> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 18:42:40 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy7 >> <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote:  >> t >> t >>>l >>>jlsue wrote:l >>>t >>>yI >>>>On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 19:23:18 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy 8 >>>><andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>1. 6 >>>>>You need to be specially trained to manage an OPS7 >>>>>	environment for starters, this might in itself ber4 >>>>>	a hint to you that managing an OPS cluster has9 >>>>>	additional skill requirements to a single instance.p >>>>>. >>>>>uD >>>>I think you overstate the complexities involved.  Sure, there isG >>>>additional training, so what?  Every time you get a new version youaC >>>>need some bit of training for the changes/new features as well.U- >>>>And it's not as if there are no benefits.d >>>> >>>> >>>b. >>>Come on you must understand the difference. >>>e2 >>>There is an Oracle 8i DBA course or a 9i course= >>>and then once you have done that if you want to administernD >>>a OPS or RAC cluster there is a 8i OPS course or a 9i RAC course. >>>o2 >>>Its an additional layer that you have to learn. >>>b >> hG >> Hmm... Don't see how anything I said above contracticts what  you'veoG >> said.  Training is part of the package for any of this, and there isaH >> little-to-no difference whether this training is for new versions, orI >> for an add-on that provides more features.  I've been through trainingvD >> in both cases.... most intelligent folks wouldn't have a problem, >> imho. >> - >> a >>>rD >>>>It's a trade-off.  Many, many customers find the availabilty andF >>>>scalability features of VMSclustering far outweigh this complexity$ >>>>that you keep spouting on about. >>>> >>>> >>> D >>>Get back to the point, Kerrys claim is that from a DBA standpointE >>>tuning and running a DBMS on a large SMP system is as difficult as 3 >>>tuning and running a DBMS on a cluster of nodes.  >>>e? >>>This is BS and no DBA will support his claim as we all know.  >>>f >>>p >> tC >> As I detail below, very little tuning has ever been needed in mylH >> environments.  SGA sizes were the most common piece that needed to beC >> modified - other than that, it was typically related to keys noteH >> existing where they needed to be.  And OPS did not make that any more >> complex.t >>   >> l >>>>>2. 8 >>>>>Tuning is very different, in addition to the normal7 >>>>>	tuning issues of data placement etc you also need 7 >>>>>	to consider partitioning data, something that you 8 >>>>>	may do on an SMP system but for different reasons. >>>>>  >>>>>:H >>>>What?  Well, none of this was true in the VMSclusters I ran that hadH >>>>Oracle clustered on them.  Tuning consisted of merely making the SGAF >>>>as large as we wanted to reduce real I/O to disk, and there was NO* >>>>need whatsoever to partition the data. >>>> >>>> >>> D >>>Really, so what was your scalability, did the DBMS deliver 2x the; >>>thoughput on two nodes when compared with one node ?????s >>>t@ >>>I have been responsible for OPS clusters on Solaris which areA >>>based on OPS to provide very high reliability, not scalabilityt> >>>no tuning for it but then it wasn't the reason that OPS was >>>being used. >>>  >>>a >>  I >> Well, scalability is only one measurement.  To tell the truth, I can't H >> recall the scalability on these apps, but I do know that it wasn't anF >> issue, or the managers wouldn't have kept supporting it with budgetH >> dollars.  But as I stated earlier, it's all a trade-off between cost,D >> speed, and reliability.  You can pick any two, but not all three. >>   >  >g= >Since this discussion is about scalability it seems odd that < >you would have bothered contributing since you don't appear3 >to remember whether your point is relevant at all.o >n >r >> l >>>>>3. 7 >>>>>There are financial penalties for using OPS, whichi8 >>>>>	any administrator in his/hers right mind will need >>>>>	to consider. >>>>>  >>>>> J >>>>Sure, as well as the financial penalties of increasing the size of theG >>>>single server when other apps on the same server grow.  I know thisaH >>>>one from experience.  Oracle apps remained constant, other apps wereI >>>>growing, requiring a server upgrade, which meant over $250K (USD) for * >>>>Oracle upgrades we really didn't need. >>>> >>>> >>> ; >>>Nope sorry. Learn your charging model before responding.  >>> = >>>Oracle charge on a per CPU basis, so my 32 CPU server willu; >>>cost 32x the price of a single CPU system. Then they addo> >>>OPS on top. So is you have 2 x 16 CPU nodes you get charged3 >>>the standard 32 CPU charge plus the cost of OPS.b >>>[snip...] >>>n: >>>The deal looks even worse when you realise that current< >>>large GS boxes deliver less throughput per CPU than Sun's< >>>and in a cluster will not unless we are talking somethingA >>>like TPC-C deliver linear or even remotely linear scalability.a >>>k8 >>>The best case ratio which is if you don't have volume< >>>deal and are buying per CPU puts a cluster being used for< >>>scalability at more than 2x the Oracle licensing costs to: >>>get the same throughput. And that ignores the increased >>>TCO of the clustered option.  >>>  >>>* >>  C >> This isn't all based on facts.  TCO takes many, many things into C >> account.  And availability does provide value to most apps.  And H >> whether a single GS box delivers less throughput or not (and I do notG >> believe this is true in the environments I've work in), if the total I >> cost of the hardware to provide equal-or-better throughput is the same F >> as the single-server model, then so what?  In the environments I'veC >> worked in , clustering did NOT increase the management costs any.I >> appreciable amount, and the value of availability certainly outweighedp
 >> that cost.- >>   >y >-B >Which bit did you actually disagree with, you will recollect that? >you, Kerry et al have all failed to provide data that counters ? >my 2-3 320's to one F15000 points. Or the points about GS320'ss$ >delivering less throughput per CPU. >nG >If you have examples of like for like publically available performanceMB >data that prove your point then produce it otherwise what you are >suggesting is pure conjecture.v >sB >I also have no doubt that managing a cluster using staff equippedB >with no training but with a copy of OpenVMS Clusters/OPS ClustersA >for dummies in snuggly in their back pocket is cheap, however aseB >you know most people prefer their staff to be properly trained orB >to have extensive experience both of which you end up paying for. >iC >It is also apparent from you subsequent posts that your experienceNE >does not extend to having to configure and tune apps for scalabilitynF >in a cluster, just to be highly available. This discussion however is> >about the costs of getting apps to scale in SMP and Clustered? >environments so while your information might have been usefull'( >in some other context it isn't in this. >r >g >> s >>>e >>>>>4. : >>>>>Your storage requirements are entirely different, you< >>>>>	now need a shared storage subsystem rather than single >>>>>	host attach. >>>>>i >>>>> F >>>>Not a problem.  It's completely transparent in my VMSclusters.  InH >>>>fact, when these customers see how other servers & clusters work wrt >>>>storage, they cringe.A >>>> >>>> >>>tB >>>You seem to miss the point again, the best and cheapest storageC >>>for a datawarehouse is often JBOD drives, the read-ahead caching-$ >>>in a array just gets in the way.  >>>- >> aF >> No, JBOD drives INCREASE the management, tuning, and administrationI >> costs for systems, and especially for Oracle databases.  An enterprise.F >> storage configuration (a.la. Cpq/hp EVA subsystems) actually lowersG >> this tuning and administration cost because the hardware manages theOI >> stastical load balancing rather than the DBA.  This is a tough one foroI >> DBAs to get past:  Many of the ones I've dealt with have spent so muchdI >> time and effort managing table spaces on spindles that it is difficulthI >> for them to give up.  But it's just not necessary anymore when all I/Ou+ >> can be spread over hundreds of spindles.c >>   >  > > >BS, A RAID array doesn't manage storage, it provides you with> >an interface that allows you to manage the storage. With JBOD> >drives you have a host based volume manager which you need to? >configure for mirroring, stripes, stripe size etc, you have tosB >do exactly the same thing on a RAID array using its configuration< >manager, the LUN's don't just create themselves and present >themselves. >o? >The tuning and administration buttons you have to push, stripe ? >width, interleave etc are just the same using JBOD as hardwareNA >RAID, which in addition may require you to play with the cachinga@ >as well which in any case for most DW apps has a tendancy to be$ >more of a hinderance than an asset. >l> >In addition if you want multi-pathing you need to manage thatA >at the host, something you don't need for mirrored striped JBOD.P >e> >Not one of your best efforts at a technical response you must >try harder. >  >  >>   >> a >>>If you don't want a HAiD >>>datawarehouse system and a lot of people don't then clustering toD >>>get scalability for DW will increase your storage costs, you need- >>>dual pathing etc and reduce your choices. K >>>  >> hE >> Clustering will not provide scalability for all apps.  However, iniA >> many, many application workloads, we can configure the clusterwE >> activity to stastically balance among servers in a sort-of-similarrI >> fashion to the I/O spread used in disk arrays.  I've done it.  Does it C >> work for large, long-running batch jobs... well, yes and no.  It  >> depends on lots of things.n >>   >2 > > >But then the specific discussion is one about the scalabilityC >of clusters, SMP boxes and the relative ease of getting it in bothM? >environments. The fact that you are uncertain that clusters do3? >deliver scalability in the terms Kerry was describing suggestsiB >that you should have an offline discussion with him and come back" >with a more coeherant party line. >  >v >>   >>>All drives/arrays withinyE >>>reason can be connected to a single system subsets of this can be eG >>>connected to clusters. Compaqs own clustered TPC-H number for ES45'sdC >>>shows this with a relatively complex switch/array infrastructurewC >>>imposed by a need to have connectivity from all the nodes in thed >>>cluster to all the storage. >>>i >>  H >> Well, VMSclusters had shared storage with CI technology over 15 yearsI >> ago.  This was NOT a "relatively complex switch/array infrastructure".lI >> It may have been pricey, but at the time it was the only game in town,vH >> so it's kind of a cheap shot to call it "costly" when there's nothing >> else to compare.t >> o >s >cC >But this has as you know been largely been replaced by FC which isS> >a realtively complex switched infrastructure so your point is >hardly relevant is it.  >n >  >e >>> J >>>>Support/Schmupport.  You'd never imagine how many times vendors try toJ >>>>pull that crap.  If problems occur with software, it's a simple matterI >>>>to reproduce the problem with only one server running the app... thatsF >>>>shuts the vendor up as far as finger-pointing goes.  Rarely, and IH >>>>mean RARELY (as in, never in 17 years) have I had a problem that was >>>>cluster-specific.m >>>> >>>> >>>lE >>>Akk, and you are customer facing, you would propose, configure andpE >>>install a platform to host an application that wasn't qualified ore >>>supported for that platform.e >>>a >.I >> However, not all customers who I deal with today, as a consultant, arelG >> as concerned that each and every thing they do has complete blessingsI >> from a vendor.  As a consultant, it's my job to inform them the limits'H >> to which they can expect support, and if they choose to go outside ofI >> that environment, then I can help them understand the trade-offs.  AndsB >> if they choose to continue unsupported, I can help them develop; >> operating disciplines that address their business needs.o >> e >a >c/ >Blimey you really are a consultant arn't you !i >rF >Do you tell them that the platform solution you have proposed to them; >is what is forcing them to consider a unsupported solution ( >as far as the apps vendor is concerned. >a >aH >> This does not mean that any unsupported option is good.  But one mustI >> understand the risks and implications before one can determine what isdF >> reasonable, and also fully realize what assuming that risk in-house >> really means. >>  < >> For example, we write many, many scripts to do day-to-dayD >> administrative functions.  These are "unsupported" by any vendor.E >> However, all system administrators do this regularly.  If problemsjI >> crop us, we take the responsibility to support them to the extend thatoB >> the issues are not related to bugs in vendor-supplied software. >> 8 >l >0< >This is rather different from say configuring say a cluster< >of DBMS servers to support an application which is a config, >that the ISV specifically does not support. >, >i >> dI >>>>If the vendor's software works in a cluster at all (i.e., they didn'te= >>>>pull some real bone-headed programming mistakes) then anyiG >>>>cluster-related problems are not usually related to their software,  >>>>per se.i >>>> >>>> >>>aD >>>So even the risk of this happening would not stop you proposing aC >>>cluster without having the vendors apps qualified for a cluster.d >>>a >> sG >> You have no idea how I develop or make proposals.  Don't jump so fareH >> without knowing what you're talking about.  When I make a proposal orD >> recommendation, it includes solutions that I know from first-hand >> experience. >> r >a >n4 >No I don't but I am beginning to get an idea :):):) >> >r >Or rather ):):):):n >n >i >Regards >h >Andrew Harrison  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq - (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)8   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:25:16 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>   Subject: Re: PHIGS - what is it?' Message-ID: <3D389FD8.15CED5E3@Free.fr>   M Back in the 80', Ken Olsen asked DEC Engineering to build a graphics console.a  L Two groups started two projects: One was the VAXstation-1 with GKS (Graphics? Kernel System) the other one was the VAXstation-100 with PHIGS.l   Guess who won?  K This story gives, to me, a picture of the reasons for the excellence of DECdH between 1957 and 1997: engineering first, Customer needs later. Which isO actually why SONY is nr 1 in their domain. They invented the walkman many yearshK before the market was ready, which explains why their products were so goodd compared to their challengers.   D.   Ransom Fitch wrote:m > E > Have inherited a system with "PHIGS-RUNTIME-USER" issurer/producer:e1 > "DEC".  I have no idea what this is.  Any help?y > 	 > Thanks,e > Ransom Fitch   -- d2   ------------------------------------------------2 MORANDI Consultants  http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr0   19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.2 Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax: +33 (0)5 6154 19282 OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans2 --------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 21:07:35 +0200k9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>r Subject: Re: PS or PDF outputa' Message-ID: <3D386377.3FAE43D2@aaa.com>   < I run my SDML files through DECdoc to produce PS files which: are then run through Ghostscript to produce PDF files. All3 fully automated (simple 4-5 line COM file in fact).)   Jan-Erik Sderholm.j   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:46:29 +0200r- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>o> Subject: Re: PW600au problem (probably h/w) - long and tedious' Message-ID: <3D38A4D2.D141E93E@Free.fr>s  K I saw this ages ago on a 780. The fan of the PDP which was used to boot VMSnL (yes) was out. When the temperature of the chip was too high. It stopped theM pdp. When the temperature came back low, the PDP restarted, and the VAX said: 4 "ah? I should boot? Ok. Let's go" . and it rebooted.  K Maybe, all things compared :-) you have a fan problem? Some sh*t in it? :-)r   D.   Mark Daniel wrote: > J > Unfortunately a hardware maintainence call is not possible in this case. > J > This PW 600au restarts ('crashes') without so much as leaving a trace of@ > a dump or error log entry.  Obviously a hardware issue of someF > description.  Stable until there's lots of SCSI activity (backup forG > instance) then bang!  I've tried moving everything off the A bus to a E > second SCSI controller but to no effect, even though there's now no	 > activity on that bus.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:33:15 +0200o- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>i Subject: Re: SMTP question' Message-ID: <3D38A1B7.23D2B12F@Free.fr>e  
 Which server?a  N If you send mail via SMTP to outside, the SMTP/VMS object is the Client. WhereO is the timeout? If it is on the W2K system, this has nothing to do with TCP/IP.eM Are you sure that it is not rather the SMTP Client which has an outgoing link ; timeout? If this is the case, what do you have in the logs?    D.   Tom Linden wrote:  > 9 > tcpip5.1 on Alpha 7.3 pop client Outlook on W2K server.e > 9 > Every now and then (couple of months) I can't send mail C > because of timeout to the smtp server.  Still continue receiveingaG > mail, however.  The problem is (temporarily) resolved by stopping andt > starting SMTP. >  > Anybody else experience this?t   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jul 2002 02:15:02 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>A Subject: Re: Terminal Emu to MicroVaxII - typed characters effect,- Message-ID: <874revzis9.fsf@prep.synonet.com>c  6 "Heinz Oswald" <Heinz.Oswald@gero-computer.de> writes:  E > As a quick solution, I attached a Notebook with Windows and a VT340c > Emulation.  < > It worked fine until last Thursday. Now it seems to double > keystrokes.  The effect is:m   > typing W gives WW> > typing L gives L   E The cable has failed. Sorry, bit rot has removed the exact details of  the problem :(   -- w< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:39:55 +0200d- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>t$ Subject: Re: Terminal input from DCL' Message-ID: <3D38A348.72AE1A72@Free.fr>t  ; Some examples in the book "Writing real programs in DCL" byn> Agnanostopoulos/Hoffman give a DCL customizable input routine.   D.   "Frits A.M. Storms" wrote: >  > L.S.M > As DCL does not provide a precise input routine (I am missing featues like:eL > Predefined maximum number of characters in length, editable default stringM > to start with, handling of function keys, character string with the preciseeH > characters that are allowed) as can be seen from 3GL-applications I am. > looking for the easiest way to realise this.N > Is there a nifty freeware application I missed, or can I build (using GNU C)N > a simple routine by calling TPU or another system service that is suitable ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 04:07:31 GMTm From: dittman@dittman.netu Subject: TKZ60 SCSI ID2 Message-ID: <7m5_8.495$I4.52@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>  ; I've got a TKZ60 tape drive.  I need to change the SCSI ID,t9 but there's not SCSI ID switch on the back.  In fact, thet: only controls on the tape drive are "UNLOAD" and "FORMAT".9 I opened the drive and couldn't find any internal jumpersS8 or switches to change the SCSI ID, so I'm guessing these2 buttons may be used somehow to change the SCSI ID.  = Can someone tell me whether the SCSI ID is fixed, and if not,o how to change the SCSI ID?   Thanks.e -- n Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.neti= Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/>   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:27:43 +0200s- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>eQ Subject: Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 features not in VMS ?, was: Re: Looking for terminal & Message-ID: <3D38A06C.7191D2E@Free.fr>  B Art, please do not post in HTML, this is not Netiquette-compliant.   :-)    D.   > Art Beane wrote: >   > Date: 17 Jul 2002 08:27:44 GMT. > From: rpw3@rigden.engr.sgi.com (Rob Warnock)J > Subject: Re: Tops-10/Tops-20 features not in VMS ?, was: Re: Looking for
 > terminal0 > Message-ID: <ah39q0$9aipg$1@fido.engr.sgi.com> > <snip>? > The idea is *ancient*, especially if you consider the REPL of>= > a Lisp Machine to be a "command line" [it is, really]. See:]	 > </snip>T >  > Do not forget DWIM.e > A > (reference: http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/DWIM/)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:33:54 +0200i- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>l) Subject: Re: VAX to Alpha migration toolsa' Message-ID: <3D38A1DF.DB6641FF@Free.fr>e   www.softresint.com   D.  
 Ade wrote: >  > Hi,  > F > I need a list of available tools for the said job. I know about VESTE > (DEC-Migrate), are there any others or can someone point me at somelA > relevant services (HP or otherwise). All information gratefullys > recieved.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 18:14:44 +0100 U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>n Subject: Re: VMS commitmentn0 Message-ID: <ah9hdm$90s$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   David Froble wrote:o  * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >  > = >> Since the mid 90's most big corporates have been following'@ >> a strategy of moving from developing their own apps to buying >> as much as they can.o >>C >> The rise in fortunes of Seibel, SAP, Oracle applications etc are ; >> examples of this effect turning up in revenues to ISV's.w >  >     @ It would be wrong just to concentrate on the Applications SuitesA like SAP and Oracle, customers are also getting out of developing2@ middleware, interfaces etc as well. 10 years ago many investment> banks used middleware and market data systems that they rolled; themselves, now many have replaced these with packages froms! vendors like Reuters, Vitria etc.   ? At the interfaces level 10 years ago customers would roll their < own integration/messaging now there is a much greater use of EAI/ETL products instead.l  = One Seibel project I recently worked on also required Vitria,lA AB Initio and a number of other products to manage the interfacese? between Seibel and the other applications, bespoke or otherwisep% running in the customers environment.o  A Just having Seibel available on the platform isn't the end of the A story, applications stacks have become very much more complicatedd< composed of products from multiple vendors all of which need< to be available and properly supported on the platform being	 proposed.e  * OpenVMS also falls at this hurdle as well.   Regards  Andrew Harrisone     > E > First, not all application packages are the same.  Some are rather oJ > rigid, saying that "you WILL run your business in this manner".  Others E > try to allow as much flexibility as possible.  Both scenarios have c5 > problems, and yes, they do work for some companies.h > K > If you're running a business where you and everyone else in that type of YJ > business do the same thing with no hope of increasing your market share K > by doing things in a better manner, AND, there is a software application gJ > that fits your business rather well, then packaged applications will be  > a winner for you.i > I > If your business requires you to 'do it just a bit better' in order to  E > be successful, then a rigid package just won't do, and some of the  H > flexible packages are rather complex (and expensive) to install, use, 
 > and modify.a > J > Then there are the examples of custom home grown applications that give K > such a bad reputation.  All the terms and ship via codes are hard coded, nC > along with custom logic for each one.  Modification and changing gE > business needs are expensive, inflexible, and serve to provide job p  > security for a bunch of hacks. > J > In the middle are the small ISVs that produce applications for vertical H > markets, in-house developed applications that are well designed, well G > implemented, and flexible, the packages that get adopted by in-house iJ > people who add company specific business requirements, and the packages I > that get modified and maintained by the ISV or other outside technical h > help.a > H > The last group of applications are particularly suitable for VMS with & > it's robust development environment. > K > So why do some companies attempt to move to the SAPs and such, when it's yG > not really a good fit for them?  Too many reasons, some of them with   > some validity. > E > 1) The clueless bean counter who finally advanced to a position of iJ > authority figures that he can cut costs to enhance profits, and ends up - > cutting out the muscle and keeping the fat.b > H > 2)The 'big ego' IT staff that perpetuates the custom 'everything hard F > coded' systems that serve the IT staff much better than they do the  > business needs.r > K > 3) The managers that listen to the 'Authur Andersons', who are much more dI > interested in selling $250/hr SAP consultants to the customer, than in n > the customer's well being. > 
 > <many more>i >  > Dave >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 01:37:30 +0200c- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>r* Subject: Re: [Hobbyist] User account setup' Message-ID: <3D38A2B6.10B29F9B@Free.fr>   ! $ set audit/ala/ena=file=fail=all  $ reply/enable   on another console, gives what?s   D.   Alder wrote: >  > OpenVMS Alpha 7.2 (Hobbyist) > N > Sorry to pester this group with questions that would embarrass a chimpanzee,H > but I'm having difficulty understanding why user account setups are soM > difficult.  Here's a sample record for a user from my SYS$SYSTEM:SYSUAF.DATh > file:  >  > UAF> show alderi > 0 > Username: ALDER                         Owner:N > Account:  USERS                            UIC:    [200,201] ([USERS,ALDER])> > CLI:      DCL                              Tables: DCLTABLES" > Default:  ACCOUNTS:[USERS.ALDER]	 > LGICMD:d > Flags:% > Primary days:   Mon Tue Wed Thu Fria- > Secondary days:                     Sat Suna > No access restrictionsF > Expiration:            (none)    Pwdminimum:  6   Login Fails:     7@ > Pwdlifetime:         90 00:00    Pwdchange:      (pre-expired) > (pre-expired)O@ > Last Login:  8-JUL-2002 08:11 (interactive),            (none) > (non-interactive) ; > Maxjobs:         0  Fillm:       100  Bytlm:        64000f; > Maxacctjobs:     0  Shrfillm:      0  Pbytlm:           0s; > Maxdetach:       0  BIOlm:       150  JTquota:       4096l; > Prclm:           8  DIOlm:       150  WSdef:         2000w; > Prio:            4  ASTlm:       250  WSquo:         4000t; > Queprio:         4  TQElm:        10  WSextent:     16384a; > CPU:        (none)  Enqlm:      2000  Pgflquo:      50000r > Authorized Privileges: >   NETMBX       TMPMBX> > Default Privileges:l >   NETMBX       TMPMBXu > UAF> > 9 > and here's the response to a login attempt by the user:n >  > Username: alder  > Password:L5 > Error activating command interpreter SYS$SYSTEM:DCLw > M > Would someone please suggest a way to track down the source of this error?>y   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2002 00:27:59 GMTa1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a* Subject: Re: [Hobbyist] User account setup' Message-ID: <3D38B300.D83A7708@fsi.net>s   Alder wrote: > : > "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote in message& > news:3D377CEA.7020106@qsl.network... > 9 > > This can actually be viewed as an interesting puzzle.n > G > I think the bigger puzzle is why I would think I could manage VMS :-)e  E Don't be so hard on yourself. We're all challenged by this, and we'rec mostly senior VMS folks.  L > I will go through the steps you suggest, but it will have to wait a day orN > two unfortunately.  Thanks very much for taking so much of your time to help > me wade through this :-)  , No problem, speaking for myself (of course).  F I can't help thinking its some goofy protection problem. Can you thinkH of any reason why you couldn't access the system disk from a group %O200 account?  ' Can you try logging in as SYSTEM, then:m   $ SET UIC [200,201]a% $ SET PROC/PRIV=(NOALL,NETMBX,TMPMBX)d( $ OPEN/READ/SHARE BIN SYS$SYSTEM:DCL.EXE $ CLOSE BIN>  H I'm kinda grasping at straws here, but I'm really curious to know what's going on with your system.   -- . David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.396 ************************