1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 12 Jun 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 323       Contents: Re: "Tru64 and OpenVMS Times"  Re: "Tru64 and OpenVMS Times" * Re: $WAKE() lost during high AST activity?* Re: $WAKE() lost during high AST activity?* Re: $WAKE() lost during high AST activity? Re: 7.3 Upgrade  8400 (MS7CC-FU) problems? & Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue?3 Re: Another analyst says VMS port won't be finished $ Re: AS-1000A Firmware upgrade manual Re: C++ name mangling # Re: Can boys have multiple orgasms? # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File ! Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File ! Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File  DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  RE: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM , Free or Best Offer: VAX and RS/6000 hardware5 How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ? 9 Re: How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ? ? Re: HP Canada "Optimize IT Conference & Showcase National Tour" ? Re: HP Canada "Optimize IT Conference & Showcase National Tour" ? Re: HP Canada "Optimize IT Conference & Showcase National Tour" ? Re: HP Canada "Optimize IT Conference & Showcase National Tour" 2 Re: Is Polycenter for VMS a good security product?& Job Opening: Chief Competitive Officer% Lively VMS discussion at Macslash.com ) Re: Lively VMS discussion at Macslash.com B Re: Logical names and search lists (was: Carly was here in ZKO...)' Major bug in Linux kernel found by AMD! 0 Re: Mounting shadowset system disks across a SAN0 Re: Mounting shadowset system disks across a SAN Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales% Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector ) Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector ) Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector ) Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  OpenVMS Mailing Lists? Re: OpenVMS Mailing Lists?G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) 
 Process Locks  Re: Process Locks # PWS500au PowerStorm 3D30 DECWindows ' RE: PWS500au PowerStorm 3D30 DECWindows + RMS count of records matching alternate key / Re: RMS count of records matching alternate key / Re: RMS count of records matching alternate key / Re: RMS count of records matching alternate key / Re: RMS count of records matching alternate key  SCSI- Fatal Drive Error  RE: SCSI- Fatal Drive Error 9 Urgent help required( Link command getting struck in vax) = Re: Urgent help required( Link command getting struck in vax)  Re: VMS Monitoring a User  Re: VMS Monitoring a User < Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:57:07 GMT   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>& Subject: Re: "Tru64 and OpenVMS Times"4 Message-ID: <1020611205543.385A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  & On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, John Smith wrote:  ? > It doesn't if it's not trademarked that way. Ask your lawyer.   ; This is only applicable if the goal is to avoid being sued. 6 If the goal is to avoid confusing HP customers who are9 accustomed to thinking of "HPS" as "HP Services", then it " is a good idea to change the name.  5 Like it would be bad idea to name a real-time process 6 control system "Software Control System for Industry".: I don't know if SCSI is owned by anyone who could sue you," but you sure would confuse people.  = (Maybe this was a trivial point, but my ulterior motive is to * test my ISP's new news server...  Slow...)  > > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message) > news:dodN8.149278$352.7367@sccrnsc02...  > > 6 > > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in message > > N > news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D9138@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. > > ..
 > > Phillip -  > > K > > Re: HPS name change ..there are likely a number of reasons for changing F > > this name - not the least of which is HP Services is HPS .. Compaq0 > > Global Services used to be shortened to CGS. > > K > > That is a very good reason. I initially planned to call SKC SKHPS as in I > > Shannon Knows High Performance Systems. I was advised by a senior HPQ M > > executive to go with another name  because HPS does in fact equal Hewlett  > > Packard Services.    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 04:00:35 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> & Subject: Re: "Tru64 and OpenVMS Times"< Message-ID: <DHzN8.17452$6m5.5646@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>  - "John Santos" <JOHN@egh.com> wrote in message . news:1020611205543.385A-100000@Ives.egh.com...( > On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, John Smith wrote: > A > > It doesn't if it's not trademarked that way. Ask your lawyer.  > = > This is only applicable if the goal is to avoid being sued. 8 > If the goal is to avoid confusing HP customers who are; > accustomed to thinking of "HPS" as "HP Services", then it $ > is a good idea to change the name.  K That's the way I figured it. HP has way many lawyers more than I do, and it D seemed prudent to heed the advice of a senior HPQ VP in this regard! > 7 > Like it would be bad idea to name a real-time process 8 > control system "Software Control System for Industry".< > I don't know if SCSI is owned by anyone who could sue you,$ > but you sure would confuse people. > ? > (Maybe this was a trivial point, but my ulterior motive is to , > test my ISP's new news server...  Slow...) > @ > > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message+ > > news:dodN8.149278$352.7367@sccrnsc02...  > > > 8 > > > "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in message > > >  > > L news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D9138@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. > > > .. > > > Phillip -  > > > D > > > Re: HPS name change ..there are likely a number of reasons for changingH > > > this name - not the least of which is HP Services is HPS .. Compaq2 > > > Global Services used to be shortened to CGS. > > > J > > > That is a very good reason. I initially planned to call SKC SKHPS as inK > > > Shannon Knows High Performance Systems. I was advised by a senior HPQ G > > > executive to go with another name  because HPS does in fact equal  Hewlett  > > > Packard Services.  >  > --
 > John Santos  > Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. > 781-861-0670 ext 539 >    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:28:42 GMT 0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)3 Subject: Re: $WAKE() lost during high AST activity? 8 Message-ID: <3d065dcf.245840550@proxy.news.easynews.com>  C On Sun, 02 Jun 2002 21:50:32 GMT, Jeffrey Chimene <jeff@nospam.net>  wrote:  E >The AST should be doing nothing more than indicating to the mainline R >that the $qio has finished. In your implementation, the AST routine cannot returnP >until the $qioW completes; which design is not what you want in an event-drivenR >program. The AST routine is now a *major* bottleneck for the rest of your progam;I >the $qio completion ASTs are queuing up waiting for the $qioW to finish.   E In general, you are correct.  But there are exceptions to the general C rule of thumb.  For example, in a write attention AST routine for a F mailbox it's perfectly reasonable to issue a $QIOW since you know that+ there are data to be read from the mailbox.   
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:34:35 GMT 0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)3 Subject: Re: $WAKE() lost during high AST activity? 8 Message-ID: <3d065e5f.245984186@proxy.news.easynews.com>  B On 2 Jun 2002 18:02:39 GMT, yehavi@vms.huji.ac.il (Yehavi Bourvine (58-4279)) wrote:   N >  I have a program in DEC-C which has the following logic: It has a main loopN >which does a few instructions, then sleeps for a while, do a few instructionsP >sleeps and so on. The sleep is done by calling $SETIMR followed by $HIBER (and  >the $SETIMR calls $WAKE). > M >  While the program's main loop is active there is an extensive I/O done via P >AST's (terminal I/O). I noticed that during high AST activity the $WAKE is lost6 >(i.e. it is called, but the $HIBER does not wake up). > > >  Anyone noticed such behaviour and knows how to overcome it?  D There is no timing window in the $WAKE/$HIBER system services.  If aC $WAKE is issued against a process that isn't hibernating, the $WAKE F call sets a "wake pending" process state flag.  $HIBER tests that flagF and if it's set, the service merely clears the "wake pending" flag andA exits immediately.  Hence there is no timing window--if the $WAKE 8 precedes the $HIBER, the $HIBER will return immediately.  A I've seen the behavior you describe in programs that aren't coded @ properly.  Without seeing the code I can't tell you what's wrongF in your particular case.  First order of business is to make sure thatA you're checking the completion status (and IOSB status, for QIOs) D of ALL your system service calls.  It may be, for example, that your" $WAKE is returning failure status.  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:14:33 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 3 Subject: Re: $WAKE() lost during high AST activity? + Message-ID: <3D067644.674830B@videotron.ca>    Paul Winalski wrote:C > I've seen the behavior you describe in programs that aren't coded B > properly.  Without seeing the code I can't tell you what's wrong > in your particular case.    N Actually, SHOW PROC/CONT might provide some tell tale problems. If the processM "mainline" doesn't wake up, but you still see some IO and CPU being consumed, * it would mean that ASTs are still flowing.  L But if nothing happens in the process, then it would mean that AST's are notL being delivered, perhaps because one executing AST is waiting for something.  I Also important is to ensure that your ASTlim process quota is sufficient.   J Does ASTlm get debited when you issue the $SETIMR that specifies an AST toJ run, or does it get debited when the time expires and the AST is queued to	 execute ?   K In the former case, checking the status code would reveal a problem. But in L the later case, there is no way for your program to know what happened sinceN it would have runned out as ASTlm outside the realm of your program, deep down( in the bowels of the VMS timer services.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:00:17 GMT 6 From: "Andy Bustamante" <a_c_bustamante@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: 7.3 Upgrade@ Message-ID: <5ivN8.327$bf7.182@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   Yes                   H In general they're covered in the release notes.  for *my* systems, thisL required a Pathworks upgrade (5.0F1 --> 6.0C).  UCX 4.x will also need to beJ replaced with TCPIP 5.x.  if you're using IP.  We'd already completed thisL upgrade, but it's in the book.  If you're using any images that were Vest'ed1 you may have problems when moving off of VMS 7.1.    Backup early and often.    --   Andy Bustamante ( remove the ascii-95's to reply by e-mail      ! > Is anyone aware of any issues ?  >  >  > Edward A. Lucas " > Sr. VAX/VMS System Administrator > SAIC > Phone:  (216) 525-7492 > Email:   Lucaea@bp.com >  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 20:26:05 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) " Subject: 8400 (MS7CC-FU) problems?= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0206111926.251784ff@posting.google.com>   5 (cross posted to C.O.V since there are probably a lot   of 8400 users here)  3 After working perfectly for around a day, our "new" 0 8400 dropped back into console mode and decided:  $ *** NO GOOD MEMORY MODULES FOUND ***% *** CONSOLE WILL RUN FROM B-CACHE ***   3 which was very annoying after spending so much time 3 moving and configuring hardware from the machine it 2 was to replace (put me in a bad mood all this week* since it cost me a lot of time on the long
 weekend :-( )   ( It has one MS7CC-FU (2GB) memory module.  , Looking at this module there are 36 SIMMS in1 sockets J2 through to J37. These are 80 pin SIMMS 1 with 32 * (4MB * 4 bit) chips (64MB). They remind / me of DECStation memory, however I suspect that 2 is "on SIMM" parity/ECC where this does not appear to be.  0 I assume this module works by running 8 banks of0 interleaved memory 576 bits wide (512 bits + 64 0 for ECC) and suspect that one SIMM hanging a bit0 on the data bus will take out the entire module?   What is not clear to me is:   * (1) Which sockets are part of which banks?. (2) It it possible to run the module partially5     populated in order to determine the failing SIMM? 3     (of course it could be another component on the 5     board, but playing the probability game I suspect 9     a SIMM - also the board is recognised by the console,      just the memory is not).: (3) Is it possible to obtain these 64MB SIMMS individually9     from anywhere? Does someone have a board lying around :     they are using as a source for spares I could tap into/     *if* I can find this to be the problem :-)     Many thanks.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:39:26 -0500 & From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>/ Subject: Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue? 8 Message-ID: <8tncgug4ofpfc17qel5tlsgnj8t0hgvql6@4ax.com>  E Well, actually zoning seems to extend to switch ports, not individual B disks/LUNs.  Using zoning, Windows servers couldn't share the same/ storage controllers as the Unix or VMS systems.   B Selective Presentation is how we secure individual LUNs from those crazy Windows servers.  E On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 06:45:41 -0400, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>  wrote:   >David,  > G >>>> Of course, the problem there is WhineBloze's nasty little habit of H >assuming it can write a "harmless" signature to (i.e., trash the zerothB >block of) every disk it sees, unless this is finally corrected by	 >then.<<<  > H >As Rob mentioned, in a SAN you can disable an OS from seeing devices onA >other OS's by either using zoning or something called "selective F >presentation" (enable specific devices for access by only servers you >designate). > F >While there are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches, both3 >ensure that the concern you raise does not happen.  > B >Fwiw, the same approach is used in a SAN to separate prod and dev >environments. >  >Regards >  >Kerry Main  >Senior Consultant >Hewlett-Packard Canada " >Consulting & Integration Services >Voice: 613-592-4660 >Fax   : 613-591-4477  >Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com  >  >  >-----Original Message----- 8 >From: David J. Dachtera [mailto:djesys.nospam@fsi.net]  >Sent: June 11, 2002 12:44 AM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com0 >Subject: Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue? >d >n >"Main, Kerry" wrote:e >> K >> Arne, >>  G >> >>>   2) even if it is just a re-compile, then there are still costsp= >>      (hardware and software purchase, testing etc.etc.)<<<  >> sI >> While you are correct, something to keep in mind from a developers andr >rG >> support point of view - assuming a SAN is in place, the same system sH >> IPF HW will be able to be used in the future to test and support not H >> only multiple versions of OpenVMS, but also W64 (whenever it becomes H >> available), HP-UX, or Linux. Simply point the boot device to another  >> part of the SAN.  > C >Of course, the problem there is WhineBloze's nasty little habit oflH >assuming it can write a "harmless" signature to (i.e., trash the zerothH >block of) every disk it sees, unless this is finally corrected by then.  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaqi- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)t   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2002 05:50:52 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)r< Subject: Re: Another analyst says VMS port won't be finished5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-gTqntgTSuygr@localhost>   5 On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:44:52 UTC, "Terry C. Shannon" S <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:    > B > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:YEoN8.249017 > > >YM > > > That is quite true. Historically Illuminata, Standish, and Brown have aAM > > > pretty good record. Thing is, they lack the showmanship and salemanship  > of > > aT > > > Gartner. So it goes... > >  > >EM > > Just like DEC and Compaq and now (seemingly) HP seem to lack with respectO > to > > OpenVMS vs. Sun/Solaris. > > . > > Sun and Microsoft both prove Barnum right. > J > Sad but true. Would that IT managers followed their own instincts ratherM > than being gulled by probability factors. VMS is a good OS, so is Tru64 andcM > HP-UX, and truth be told, IBM has some pretty good stuff, too. Sure, you'llNL > pay through the nose for it, but if a client told me that he/she was beingI > forced to leave Alpha/VMS for a non-HPQ solution, the first alternativeC@ > vendor I would suggest is IBM. (Unless the change of venue was9 > fault-tolerant related, whereupon I'd suggest NonStop.)  > K > Sun would be a bit farther down the list. If Sun were to recommit to IPF,A5 > their story would (IMHO) look a lot more plausible.   E I can see that but why the hell should they make life easy for their   competitors?  C If IPF had worked according to the Intel roadmap, perhaps it could  F have applied  pressure on Sun. Maybe Sun could even have played it offF as a development of their 386 Solaris. But commercially speaking, theyA appear, at the moment, to have followed the correct course. That p perception may change.   -- e Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:48:31 +0200p) From: "Steven Thompson" <steven@omga.biz> - Subject: Re: AS-1000A Firmware upgrade manualkB Message-ID: <ae5gio$eii$1@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>   ... aren't they on the CDROM???r    ; "Alder" <PGDEHMKOKIMD@spammotel.com> escribi en el mensajea& news:3D03CF8C.6080508@spammotel.com...G > The HP/Compaq site seems to have a dead link to the firmware manual I,H > want to read before I try upgrading the firmware in my AS-1000A.  I'veI > no idea if I NEED to read this doc, but as a complete newbie I'd betterV > be safer than sorrier. >rI > Does anyone have a copy of this manual they'd like to share?  It's namea > on the HPQ site is:g > ! > alpha800_1000a_v57_fw_rnote.pdf  >5 > Many thanks, > Alderi >w   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:42:18 GMTn0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski) Subject: Re: C++ name mangling8 Message-ID: <3d06611e.246686977@proxy.news.easynews.com>  C Your problem here is that the function declaration in the .cpp file 5 ALSO has to be within an extern "C" block.  Try this:r   extern "C" {* void inventory(char*, char*, int&, short&) {  // some code...  }u   } // extern "C"g      E On 11 Jun 2002 06:13:37 -0700, bubbapig@hotmail.com (Jeffrey Cameron)  wrote:  = >with the actual function declaration in the .cpp file I use:- >-/ >void inventory(char *, char *, int &, short &)- >{ >//some code..., >} > D >MY problem is that when I try and link it with the remainder of theA >object files to get the executable image I get LINK errors about.E >UNDEFINED SYMBOLS listing inventory as the symbol whichis undefined.tG >So I did some investigating and used analyze/object on the object file E >produced and lo and behold inventory was defined in the symbol table B >as INVENTORY_KPCPC.. in other words a mangled name. Is there someF >cases where the C++ compiler overlooks the extern "C" declaration and* >mangles or decorates the name regardless?  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email..   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jun 2002 19:21:52 GMT! From: Zion <duke.nuke.em@gmx.net>y, Subject: Re: Can boys have multiple orgasms?5 Message-ID: <ae5ikg$49dcd$2@ID-109711.news.dfncis.de>)  D I thought this newsgroup was moderated! It defnitely should be then.   -- 8< Antworten an meine E-Mail Adresse werden ignoriert/gelscht.4 Replies to my E-Mail-Adress will be ignored/deleted.  K Speziell frs deutsche Usenet: Ignorante Mchtegerns landen sofort im Kill l File.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:59:05 GMTc( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday+ Message-ID: <3D0648CA.936EE87F@pacbell.net>    "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:e >  <snip> > K > Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it withsM > ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability,eN > enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it really+ > make any difference if VMS still existed?t >  > Just wondering.-  A Terry. What a question for this group! This could lead to anotherC never-ending-thread!P But, I agree in theory. Even more I think it's time for a new OS that would be aI superset of all Unix & VMS functionality. With such an approach you could P support both classic Unix & classic VMS environments under the same umbrella andN begin to build an even better OS environment (shell, symbolic structures, moreD logical privileges, etc, etc) that folks could gradually migrate to.= I've mentioned this idea before, but no one seemed to get it.e   -- u   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San Franciscod   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:11:04 GMTw( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday+ Message-ID: <3D064B99.DAA09B1D@pacbell.net>o   David Mathog wrote:s >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:n > >SM > > Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it withoO > > ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability,bP > > enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it really- > > make any difference if VMS still existed?r > P > Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ completed the VMS port to Itanium and achievedK > full DII/COE functionality could they make the resulting operating systemAL > the upgrade path for HP-UX?  I'm not entirely joking about this - it mightL > actually be easier to bolt the unixy pieces on top of VMS than it would beK > to stuff the key VMS pieces underneath the skin of an existing unix.  AndSL > my experience has been that it's a lot easier to port Unix software to VMS > than the other way around. > O Not sure if I agree with that. Converting fork() alone to operate as it does ineL Unix is no easy task and symbolic links can be a big ouch. I've done portingN both ways and found it's usually easiest to do a "functional port" - analyzingL what each function is trying to accomplish, then rewrite it according to the target platform's strengths.   --     Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com) 
 San FranciscoW   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 14:15:41 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)., Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday3 Message-ID: <Cyl1D3+$AHWp@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  V In article <3D0648CA.936EE87F@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:T >> i > <snip> >> nL >> Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it withN >> ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability,O >> enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it reallyh, >> make any difference if VMS still existed? >> x >> Just wondering. > C > Terry. What a question for this group! This could lead to another  > never-ending-thread!R > But, I agree in theory. Even more I think it's time for a new OS that would be aK > superset of all Unix & VMS functionality. With such an approach you could-R > support both classic Unix & classic VMS environments under the same umbrella andP > begin to build an even better OS environment (shell, symbolic structures, moreF > logical privileges, etc, etc) that folks could gradually migrate to.? > I've mentioned this idea before, but no one seemed to get it.  >   D 	Maybe we could call this new OS , Mica?  For old times sake, maybe?  .                               (Duck and cover)  (                                      Rob   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:36:21 GMT ( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday* Message-ID: <3D065186.8707120@pacbell.net>   Rob Young wrote: > X > In article <3D0648CA.936EE87F@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:h > >>
 > > <snip> > >>N > >> Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it withP > >> ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability,Q > >> enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it reallye. > >> make any difference if VMS still existed? > >> > >> Just wondering. > >cE > > Terry. What a question for this group! This could lead to anotherI > > never-ending-thread!T > > But, I agree in theory. Even more I think it's time for a new OS that would be aM > > superset of all Unix & VMS functionality. With such an approach you could T > > support both classic Unix & classic VMS environments under the same umbrella andR > > begin to build an even better OS environment (shell, symbolic structures, moreH > > logical privileges, etc, etc) that folks could gradually migrate to.A > > I've mentioned this idea before, but no one seemed to get it., > >u > M >         Maybe we could call this new OS , Mica?  For old times sake, maybe?: > 0 >                               (Duck and cover) > * >                                      Rob  ( Sorry, now I don't get it. What's Mica ?   -- p   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com) 
 San Franciscot   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 14:52:00 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday3 Message-ID: <7Fy$bGY1JHob@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <3D065186.8707120@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:  > Rob Young wrote: >> aY >> In article <3D0648CA.936EE87F@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:o >> > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: >> >>m >> > <snip>a >> >>fO >> >> Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it withSQ >> >> ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability,xR >> >> enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it really/ >> >> make any difference if VMS still existed?o >> >>  >> >> Just wondering.e >> >F >> > Terry. What a question for this group! This could lead to another >> > never-ending-thread!SU >> > But, I agree in theory. Even more I think it's time for a new OS that would be aMN >> > superset of all Unix & VMS functionality. With such an approach you couldU >> > support both classic Unix & classic VMS environments under the same umbrella and S >> > begin to build an even better OS environment (shell, symbolic structures, moreeI >> > logical privileges, etc, etc) that folks could gradually migrate to. B >> > I've mentioned this idea before, but no one seemed to get it. >> > >> rN >>         Maybe we could call this new OS , Mica?  For old times sake, maybe? >> e1 >>                               (Duck and cover)r >> d+ >>                                      Robe > * > Sorry, now I don't get it. What's Mica ? >   D http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?IssueID=97&ArticleID=4494  H To retain its star developer, Digital gave Cutler about 200 hardware andO software engineers. Cutler moved his group to Seattle and started a developmentrK center. This elite group's goal was to design a new CPU architecture and OS I that would lead Digital into the 1990s. Digital called the Cutler group'ss( hardware project Prism, and its OS Mica.   				Rob0   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:08:44 GMT0( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday+ Message-ID: <3D06591E.8B010EA5@pacbell.net>    Rob Young wrote: > W > In article <3D065186.8707120@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:a > > Rob Young wrote: > >>[ > >> In article <3D0648CA.936EE87F@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:   > >> > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: > >> >>u
 > >> > <snip>  > >> >> Q > >> >> Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it with6S > >> >> ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability,rT > >> >> enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it really1 > >> >> make any difference if VMS still existed?s > >> >>o > >> >> Just wondering.n > >> >H > >> > Terry. What a question for this group! This could lead to another > >> > never-ending-thread!hW > >> > But, I agree in theory. Even more I think it's time for a new OS that would be a P > >> > superset of all Unix & VMS functionality. With such an approach you couldW > >> > support both classic Unix & classic VMS environments under the same umbrella andMU > >> > begin to build an even better OS environment (shell, symbolic structures, moreiK > >> > logical privileges, etc, etc) that folks could gradually migrate to.oD > >> > I've mentioned this idea before, but no one seemed to get it. > >> > > >>P > >>         Maybe we could call this new OS , Mica?  For old times sake, maybe? > >>3 > >>                               (Duck and cover)2 > >>- > >>                                      Robj > >R, > > Sorry, now I don't get it. What's Mica ? > >  > F > http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?IssueID=97&ArticleID=4494 > J > To retain its star developer, Digital gave Cutler about 200 hardware andQ > software engineers. Cutler moved his group to Seattle and started a development M > center. This elite group's goal was to design a new CPU architecture and OSwK > that would lead Digital into the 1990s. Digital called the Cutler group'sp* > hardware project Prism, and its OS Mica. > % >                                 Rob   N Don't be insulting... :) I would never suggest a M$ like OS. Although I do useP NT4.0 daily for convenience, it was never even close to being a superset of UnixO & VMS. More like just Windows with process isolation and as such DOES work much % better than Windows 98, for example. o  O No, I would like to name the new OS something humble, like Shiva (Indian god ofb" power and destroyer of evil (M$?)) -- i   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)a
 San Franciscos   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:08:09 -0400a( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday, Message-ID: <3D0666B9.4010600@tsoft-inc.com>   Don Sykes wrote:   > Rob Young wrote: > X >>In article <3D0648CA.936EE87F@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: >> >>>"Terry C. Shannon" wrote: >>>e	 >>><snip>d >>>.M >>>>Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it withSO >>>>ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability,>P >>>>enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it really- >>>>make any difference if VMS still existed?h >>>> >>>>Just wondering.  >>>>D >>>Terry. What a question for this group! This could lead to another >>>never-ending-thread!tS >>>But, I agree in theory. Even more I think it's time for a new OS that would be aeL >>>superset of all Unix & VMS functionality. With such an approach you couldS >>>support both classic Unix & classic VMS environments under the same umbrella andtQ >>>begin to build an even better OS environment (shell, symbolic structures, morerG >>>logical privileges, etc, etc) that folks could gradually migrate to.e@ >>>I've mentioned this idea before, but no one seemed to get it. >>>, >>>sM >>        Maybe we could call this new OS , Mica?  For old times sake, maybe?D >>0 >>                              (Duck and cover) >>* >>                                     Rob >> > * > Sorry, now I don't get it. What's Mica ? >  >     P The code developed as part of the Prism project, which was cancelled, which led P to David Cutler leaving DEC, and taking (stealing) the code he had writted as a G DEC employee to Microsoft.  This code later became known as Windows NT.t  L Then the ball-less Palmer, instead of sueing the heck out of Microsoft, and N Cutler, caused the negotiations which gave us such things as Digital ditching 4 their software for Exchange, and Affinity, and such.   Dave   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 14:12:22 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)k, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206111312.3a243d3e@posting.google.com>   e "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<UudN8.34769$pw3.1398@sccrnsc03>...iK > Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it with M > ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability,iN > enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it really+ > make any difference if VMS still existed?  >  > Just wondering.t  D Management of several companies have tried to come up with a list ofC core VMS features, in the belief that if they could check off everyh? item on the list in their product, VMS customers would flock toH migrate.  F This line of reasoning is based on false assumptions, and is doomed to failure.  D It is not just the features of VMS that are attractive (although VMS@ certainly has many neat features), but the whole environment VMS	 provides:   ) 1) the underlying philosophy of computing   D This is hard to define in words, but I remember the joy as I startedE to learn what VMS offered compared with the other operating systems IeE had worked with in the past.  It included the minicomputer philosophy D of empowering the users to get the job done themselves, by providingD them with the information and tools they needed.  It included thingsA like a very high standard for documentation quality and coverage,CD excellent support for programmers in that it allowed them to controlE almost every conceivable option and do almost every conceivable thingsA in the system services and runtime libraries.  It included a highrF standard for expectations of product quality and of customer service. C It included the whole Ken Olsen philosophy of "Do the Right Thing."t  + 2) the design target focus that VMS has hadt  C Different platforms started with different goals in mind.  Unix was C written by programmers for programmers, with a design philosophy ofw "simplicity is best"D even when a simple solution didn't work all the time.  It also had a; design focus where high performance was more important thani? reliability, and it had little sympathy for ignorant end users.o  F Windows was built on a crude foundation, and has had to try to add in,F over time, all the features that more-mature operating systems alreadyC had.  It still suffers from its original single-user, zero-security/D design focus.  And in a defensive reaction to poor software quality,D an entire culture has developed in the PC world which puts the blame3 on the innocent user for anything which goes wrong.   C 3)  the overall engineering philosophy, and the emphasis on qualitytB and high availability which blossomed as VMS Clusters in the 1980s  C VMS had a defined calling standard, so you could write code in yourSD favorite language and call not only all the VMS services but code in other languages.  C When engineering pieces of VMS or its hardware, all the conceivableeC possibilites were enumerated ahead of time and the resulting designrA carefully made so each case would be handled in a proper fashion, $ regardless of their low probability.  C Upward compatibility was always the norm, and users could depend on' it.e  F Data integrity was sacred.  Data corruption was never tolerated.  Lost# work for a user was not acceptable.x  D Command verbs and qualifiers were carefully chosen by a committee toD provide consistency across all tools, not chosen at the whim of some programmer.d  D Security was always a high priority, designed in from the beginning,B and never neglected or postponed.  Security bugs, while rare, wereA typically corrected with a hasty mailing of a package from DEC ton: system managers who typically knew nothing of any problem.   4) Community  F The VMS philosophy of user empowerment seemed to encourage a communityA of people that helped each other, readily sharing information andE techniques.n  E It is these core VMS values that have resulted in the feature set VMSkF has today.  You can't duplicate the features, you have to duplicate orA even exceed the values, before VMS users would consider migratingn anywhere voluntarily.m: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:02:49 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday, Message-ID: <3D067385.2EFE2957@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:M > 'All the good attributes of VMS' means VMS in its entirety.  On Alpha.  AndsL > VAX.  With the same stability and without reduced performance or increased > cost.  Period.  G All the good attributes of VMS also means the confidence we have in VMSe- engineers who have quality ahead of quantity.t  J Giving away the VMS jewels to the HP-UX engineers doesn't garantee a "VMS"M implementation. What Microsoft did with all the jewels it was given by Palmer  is a good example.  L Similarly, it will be interesting to see how much HP-UX work will be done byL Tru64 engineers who are still under marcello's "legacy products" department.K If most of the work is done by HP-UX engineers, then are there any warm andkG fuzzy feeling about them knowing all the ins and outs of clustering and  Tru64's file system ?l   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:56:11 -0700)0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday, Message-ID: <3D060F8B.23359409@Mvb.Saic.Com>   Terry C. Shannon wrote:n > 9 > "Tony Scandora" <Scandora@cmt.anl.gov> wrote in messageh' > news:ae2h7a$thb$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov...l > .i > >oH > > HP's prime software is Windows, HP-UX, with some of Tru64 eventually > foldedL > > in, and Linux.  VMS and NSK will be funded, but don't expect them to get > the L > > corporate visibility of Windows, HP-UX, or Linux.  I'd like to know some > ofL > > what she couldn't repeat in public, but a corporation has good reason toN > > keep some of its numbers and plans private.  I think what Sue posted about) > > Carly's visit to ZKO is a Good Thing.y > D > No doubt. At least the lady now knows what VMS and Tru64 UNIX are. > J > It seems to me that HPQ is stronger in Unix (and Linux) than in Windows.: > Perhaps some decent halo effect from CPQ in that regard. > K > Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it with M > ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability, N > enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it really+ > make any difference if VMS still existed?6 >  > Just wondering.   H There is something that VMS has that, as far as I know, no Unix has everB had, and that is the concept of records.  In Unix, everything is aB stream.  Sure, a given application can say "here is how I define aH record" but no other application or utility will know about it.  VMS, onF the other hand, can do both records and streams.  This is at least oneA of the reasons why Fortran has never been all that common on Unixu0 systems (not "unheard of", simply "not common").  F Different applictions have different needs, of course, and some simplyD don't care about this distinction.  Where is does make a difference, however, Unix simply won't do.  
 Mark Berrymanp Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:22:11 GMTn( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday+ Message-ID: <3D067865.E047E4BB@pacbell.net>'   David Froble wrote:b >  > Don Sykes wrote: >  > > Rob Young wrote: > >oZ > >>In article <3D0648CA.936EE87F@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > >> > >>>"Terry C. Shannon" wrote: > >>>  > >>><snip>  > >>>-O > >>>>Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it with Q > >>>>ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability, R > >>>>enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it really/ > >>>>make any difference if VMS still existed?e > >>>> > >>>>Just wondering.o > >>>>F > >>>Terry. What a question for this group! This could lead to another > >>>never-ending-thread!iU > >>>But, I agree in theory. Even more I think it's time for a new OS that would be a,N > >>>superset of all Unix & VMS functionality. With such an approach you couldU > >>>support both classic Unix & classic VMS environments under the same umbrella and S > >>>begin to build an even better OS environment (shell, symbolic structures, moreiI > >>>logical privileges, etc, etc) that folks could gradually migrate to.eB > >>>I've mentioned this idea before, but no one seemed to get it. > >>>c > >>>pO > >>        Maybe we could call this new OS , Mica?  For old times sake, maybe?t > >>2 > >>                              (Duck and cover) > >>, > >>                                     Rob > >> > >v, > > Sorry, now I don't get it. What's Mica ? > >e > >  > Q > The code developed as part of the Prism project, which was cancelled, which led Q > to David Cutler leaving DEC, and taking (stealing) the code he had writted as a I > DEC employee to Microsoft.  This code later became known as Windows NT.  > $ aka. Windows with process isolation.  M > Then the ball-less Palmer, instead of sueing the heck out of Microsoft, and O > Cutler, caused the negotiations which gave us such things as Digital ditching 6 > their software for Exchange, and Affinity, and such.  P I wouldn't call him ball-less, because I don't think Palmer every intended to do( anything but sell of DEC piece by piece.   -- ,   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)n
 San Francisco    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:48:31 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterdayB Message-ID: <27vN8.207307$%o.18579187@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  5 "Don Sykes" <annonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in messagei$ news:3D065186.8707120@pacbell.net... > Rob Young wrote: > >c9 > > In article <3D0648CA.936EE87F@pacbell.net>, Don Sykese  <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:   ...>  4 > > > I think it's time for a new OS that would be aI > > > superset of all Unix & VMS functionality. With such an approach youd could>I > > > support both classic Unix & classic VMS environments under the samed umbrella andC > > > begin to build an even better OS environment (shell, symbolicu structures, moreJ > > > logical privileges, etc, etc) that folks could gradually migrate to.C > > > I've mentioned this idea before, but no one seemed to get it.c > > >m > > H > >         Maybe we could call this new OS , Mica?  For old times sake, maybe? > >e2 > >                               (Duck and cover) > >>, > >                                      Rob > * > Sorry, now I don't get it. What's Mica ?  H The particularly relevant aspect of Mica is that it was intended to be aG single kernel supporting both VMS and Ultrix personalities.  That's notaI *exactly* what you were proposing above (and it's not clear that a single4K common environment that's a proper union of VMS and Unix is possible, givendF inconsistencies such as file versioning), but close enough to make the comment appropriate.  G I do agree, incidentally, that a new system incorporating to the degreeuL possible the goodnesses from both environments would be close to ideal, evenH if some minor porting effort from either was required to move to it.  NTJ itself was definitely a step in that direction, but (as was always true atD DEC as well) Cutler didn't quite sufficiently appreciate some of theE qualities of other environments to incorporate them fully (e.g., UnixDF 'fork', which while its benefit may be debatable in the abstract is anJ absolute requirement for easy porting), and the execution also failed bothL in some areas of quality and by becoming polluted by existing Windows hacks.L One might consider this an opportunity for some other party to 'do NT right'G and create the ideal VMS/Unix/NT hybrid, but Microsoft may well have so K completely intertwined the OS with ancillary application support facilitiesnH that this is no longer possible (though a good VMS/Unix hybrid that paidI reasonable attention to NT kernel facilities would certainly make portingg from NT at least easier).h  H Unfortunately, the only corporation in any reasonable position to createI such a system would be VMS's owner.  Lots of luck.  And while open sourceaL systems will undoubtedly over time acquire some of VMS's strengths, the UnixJ I/O model has always resisted full-blown support for asynchrony, so unlessL some non-Unix-like open-source system should appear I wouldn't hold out much hope in that direction.    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 16:41:36 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski), Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206111541.5ea3ba52@posting.google.com>   [ Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<3D0648CA.936EE87F@pacbell.net>...r > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > > 	 >  <snip>  > > M > > Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it withwO > > ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability,rP > > enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it really- > > make any difference if VMS still existed?e > >  > > Just wondering.i > C > Terry. What a question for this group! This could lead to anotherd > never-ending-thread!R > But, I agree in theory. Even more I think it's time for a new OS that would be aK > superset of all Unix & VMS functionality. With such an approach you coulduR > support both classic Unix & classic VMS environments under the same umbrella andP > begin to build an even better OS environment (shell, symbolic structures, moreF > logical privileges, etc, etc) that folks could gradually migrate to.? > I've mentioned this idea before, but no one seemed to get it.u  G you already have it!  VMS now w/ODS5 and COE is that meshing of VMS and E unix, plus, you have all those great features that make VMS the best! * It already exists, why reinvent the wheel?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:35:07 GMT ( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday+ Message-ID: <3D06978F.4B8B4A60@pacbell.net>    Bob Ceculski wrote:8 > ] > Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<3D0648CA.936EE87F@pacbell.net>...t > > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:> > > >t > >  <snip>n > > >PO > > > Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it withrQ > > > ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability,iR > > > enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it really/ > > > make any difference if VMS still existed?y > > >a > > > Just wondering.p > >sE > > Terry. What a question for this group! This could lead to anothere > > never-ending-thread!T > > But, I agree in theory. Even more I think it's time for a new OS that would be aM > > superset of all Unix & VMS functionality. With such an approach you couldnT > > support both classic Unix & classic VMS environments under the same umbrella andR > > begin to build an even better OS environment (shell, symbolic structures, moreH > > logical privileges, etc, etc) that folks could gradually migrate to.A > > I've mentioned this idea before, but no one seemed to get it.O > I > you already have it!  VMS now w/ODS5 and COE is that meshing of VMS andcG > unix, plus, you have all those great features that make VMS the best!o, > It already exists, why reinvent the wheel?  P Not exactly what I had in mind. I agree ODS5 and COE bring some crucial parts ofG Unix into VMS, but even some VMS features could do with a rethink. E.g.iN privileges are not logical. They seemed to have evolved as needed, so there isM no uniform architecture to them. Users cannot belong to more than 1 group and O there is no concept of a true "group administrator". Also, super symbols - manynI different levels of symbols from thread specific, to environment specific-L (beyond the cluster) could do a lot more than symbols and logicals do now. AL true "Shiva" OS would allow Unix & VMS environments to coexist and allow newM ones to develop. Unix users shouldn't have to learn DCL and VMS'ers shouldn'thM have to know csh, ksh or the like. It would be nice to be able to choose yourrA development & production environments, maybe depending on a groupU administrator's parameter.? There are lots of possibilities once you begin to open the box.i   --     Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)c
 San Francisco    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:51:37 GMTg( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday+ Message-ID: <3D069B6E.8B9EFCAB@pacbell.net>    Bill Todd wrote: >  <snip> > > , > > Sorry, now I don't get it. What's Mica ? > J > The particularly relevant aspect of Mica is that it was intended to be aI > single kernel supporting both VMS and Ultrix personalities.  That's notVK > *exactly* what you were proposing above (and it's not clear that a singlesM > common environment that's a proper union of VMS and Unix is possible, givenoH > inconsistencies such as file versioning), but close enough to make the > comment appropriate.  M It's very possible. Take file versioning for example. The person running in aoJ Unix environment would only see the most recent version of a file, becauseO that's a provision of that environment. A VMS environment could act on previous M versions, because that's a provision of that environment. The underlying filerP system may in fact have other features not shared by either classic environment,C like associated meta files... enter a new environment all together.e   > I > I do agree, incidentally, that a new system incorporating to the degreedN > possible the goodnesses from both environments would be close to ideal, evenJ > if some minor porting effort from either was required to move to it.  NTL > itself was definitely a step in that direction, but (as was always true atF > DEC as well) Cutler didn't quite sufficiently appreciate some of theG > qualities of other environments to incorporate them fully (e.g., UnixiH > 'fork', which while its benefit may be debatable in the abstract is anL > absolute requirement for easy porting), and the execution also failed bothN > in some areas of quality and by becoming polluted by existing Windows hacks.N > One might consider this an opportunity for some other party to 'do NT right'I > and create the ideal VMS/Unix/NT hybrid, but Microsoft may well have sooM > completely intertwined the OS with ancillary application support facilitiessJ > that this is no longer possible (though a good VMS/Unix hybrid that paidK > reasonable attention to NT kernel facilities would certainly make portingb > from NT at least easier).C  I Ok you can throw in NT too, but think of it as a super set, rather than aeL hybrid. A super set contains all the features of each, but is not limited toJ stopping there. It can incorporate additional features as part of a larger3 architecture following more elegantly simple rules.e   > J > Unfortunately, the only corporation in any reasonable position to createK > such a system would be VMS's owner.  Lots of luck.  And while open sourceiN > systems will undoubtedly over time acquire some of VMS's strengths, the UnixL > I/O model has always resisted full-blown support for asynchrony, so unlessN > some non-Unix-like open-source system should appear I wouldn't hold out much > hope in that direction.  > K Alas, I agree. Shortsightedness is a requirement for all corporate decisionw makers these days.   -- e   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)n
 San Franciscou   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:37:01 GMTg# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>y, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterdayJ Message-ID: <1BxN8.252252$ah_.132573@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message6 news:0YoN8.14002$6m5.3227@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net... >h > >eI > > Some items to make VMS "more strategic".  #1 Get more apps running ons it. G > > #2 Get it back in the edu space.  #3 Keep the OS development streami going. > >nL > > I think #3 is being done and if VMS on IA-64 pans out, #1 should follow. > #2 > > needs some work. >aK > #2 does need some work, but I note with interest that CPQ some months ago L > sent a questionnaire to all its VMS edu customers. So apparently Edu is on > the radar screen.y >s > > I > > If readers here have ideas about this - and I've said this many times  > now - K > > send your constructively worded cards and letters to the powers that be  @AE > > hp.  Discussing them here is OK too, but hardly cause for change.d > G > Yep. By all means stay constructive. There's plenty to criticize, buteB > constructive ideas will get you further than griping every time!  K So when you (generically) read what appears to be criticism, simply view itlC in a relativistic sense and recognize that from one viewpoint it isl, constructive and from another it is griping.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:39:32 GMTr From: danco@pebble.org, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday- Message-ID: <slrnagdae8.2qa.danco@pebble.org>a  < In article <3D06978F.4B8B4A60@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes wrote:  * > Users cannot belong to more than 1 group  H I find using rights identifiers on OpenVMS to be much more flexible thanC multiple group membership and switching on UNIX.  However, it would:K indeed be goodness if OpenVMS could _also_ do the multiple group membership.I & switching thing.  Just to make people who don't realize how much bettero5 rights identifiers are, comfortable, if nothing else.g    6 > there is no concept of a true "group administrator".  E Imagine ANSI style ACLs with GRANT access (ala RDB with same).  Ouch.S   - Dan    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 18:55:37 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski), Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206111755.552dc18b@posting.google.com>   d "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<zZoN8.10252$nZ3.622@rwcrnsc53>...< > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:upqMZQeg4fTv@eisner.encompasserve.org...sC > > In article <UudN8.34769$pw3.1398@sccrnsc03>, "Terry C. Shannon" # >  <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:  > > >yJ > > > Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it >  withoD > > > ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, >  reliability,nK > > > enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would ite	 >  reallys/ > > > make any difference if VMS still existed?s > >tL > >    Security, DCL, LIB$... routines, SYS$... routines, a decent real-time > >    capability, ... > >i$ > >    I won't be holding my breath. > L > Nor will I because I don't look good as a Smurf. But back to the question:L > if HP-UX inherited all the good attributes of VMS, would it matter much if@ > VMS found itself subject to the EERP some years down the road? >  > Just wondering.m  D why is every one here have a mindset to "reinvent" VMS?  People haveB been trying since NT to do that, and have failed miserably ... VMSE already has much of what other os's are trying to mimic or just dreameB about ... why are you trying to reinvent the wheel?  Have you been( watching to many Al Gore clips recently?   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 19:12:07 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski), Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206111812.666c131b@posting.google.com>   [ Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<3D067865.E047E4BB@pacbell.net>...m > > >>>l > > >>>iQ > > >>        Maybe we could call this new OS , Mica?  For old times sake, maybe?o > > >>4 > > >>                              (Duck and cover) > > >>. > > >>                                     Rob > > >> > > >b. > > > Sorry, now I don't get it. What's Mica ? > > >c > > >i > > S > > The code developed as part of the Prism project, which was cancelled, which led S > > to David Cutler leaving DEC, and taking (stealing) the code he had writted as ahK > > DEC employee to Microsoft.  This code later became known as Windows NT.e > > & > aka. Windows with process isolation. > O > > Then the ball-less Palmer, instead of sueing the heck out of Microsoft, andhQ > > Cutler, caused the negotiations which gave us such things as Digital ditchinge8 > > their software for Exchange, and Affinity, and such. > R > I wouldn't call him ball-less, because I don't think Palmer every intended to do* > anything but sell of DEC piece by piece.  E I think Palmer and Capellas were paid by Micro$oft/Intel to give/sell D them all the Alpha/VMS stuff they could ... Palmer is really the theD person who destroyed DEC ... Capellas just finished the distribution of technology ...    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 08:39:27 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)v, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday3 Message-ID: <NOFBQANn0axt@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  \ In article <3D058BB3.9C75D4FC@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > P > Depends if they add stuff to HP-UX just to say it has it, or if they add stuffK > to really give it all the functionality and reliability that is expected.lP > Everyone claims to have clustering, so it won't be hard to add enough to HP-UX( > to allow HP-UX to also claim the same.  D    Too late for that.  HP-UX already claims clustering, but they didA    have the good sense to admit it wasn't as good as VMSclusters.,   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 04:54:55 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterdayB Message-ID: <zuAN8.136828$4i.12930352@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  5 "Don Sykes" <annonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in message1% news:3D069B6E.8B9EFCAB@pacbell.net...u > Bill Todd wrote: > >e > <snip> > > >5. > > > Sorry, now I don't get it. What's Mica ? > > L > > The particularly relevant aspect of Mica is that it was intended to be aK > > single kernel supporting both VMS and Ultrix personalities.  That's notaF > > *exactly* what you were proposing above (and it's not clear that a singleI > > common environment that's a proper union of VMS and Unix is possible,s givenmJ > > inconsistencies such as file versioning), but close enough to make the > > comment appropriate. > J > It's very possible. Take file versioning for example. The person running in aL > Unix environment would only see the most recent version of a file, becauseH > that's a provision of that environment. A VMS environment could act on previousJ > versions, because that's a provision of that environment. The underlying fileE > system may in fact have other features not shared by either classich environment,E > like associated meta files... enter a new environment all together.   I I'm afraid not.  Once you start creating 'environments', you don't have auI single homogeneous system any more, even if some data interchange betweentH environments is possible.  This is something you might understand betterL after sitting in a room with a bunch of knowledgeable people from both campsH trying to work out how to create a common, shared system for both:  it'sL simply not possible unless both camps are willing to compromise for the good
 of the whole.o  K The Mica group weren't dummies.  If a common upward-compatible union rathertH than multiple personalities had been creatable, they would have done so.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jun 2002 23:17:10 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <ae60dm0230s@enews3.newsguy.com>  2 Bill Gunshannon <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote:. > Just a quick glance at my bookshelf reveals:  2 > "Introducing the UNIX System", McGraw-Hill, 1983A > "UNIX System V Primer (Revised Edition)", The Waite Group, 1987a4 > "UNIX System Administration", Harcourt Brace, 1987J > "UNIX SYSTEM Administration Handbook (2nd Edition)", Prentice Hall, 1994J > "UNIX SYSTEM Administration Handbook (3rd Edition)", Prentice Hall, 20016 > "LINUX Administration Handbook", Prentice Hall, 2002  H > And that is hardly exhaustive.  And what books are available for VMS??  I Well, I for one have about as many 3rd Party VMS books as I do UNIX bookslN (about a shelf).  Then there are the *SHELVES* (about 1.5-2 fullsize bookcasesH full) of DEC/Compaq VMS documentation that I've got (as well as all the  documentation CD-ROMs).p  G > PS. As an aside, I would strongly recommend those last two for peopledE > who need to do UNIX and/or Linux Admin work.  Really good books and 6 > I don't say that just cause I know the authors.  :-)  I I'd add "Unix for the Impatient", "Essential System Administration" (fromhL O'Rielly), and one of Mark Sobell's books.  The one I've got sitting here isK "A Practical Guide to UNIX System V", it's quite ancient, and he's had many9/ versions since this one, but it's still useful.o   			Zane    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jun 2002 20:06 CDTo' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)h$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?- Message-ID: <11JUN200220065369@gerg.tamu.edu>m  K In article <ae4vq6$24l0$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@cs.scranton.edu writes...y( }In article <3D058592.1AF7C0BC@fsi.net>,5 } "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:t }|> H }|> That's what documentation is for. However, since none comes with theJ }|> average UN*X variant, the man pages are about all there is - ANYWHERE! } ' }Haven't been to the bookstore lately??  } B }Waldens, B. Dalton, Barnes & Noble.  All of them around here have? }racks of third party books on Unix in general, Linux or BSD ine; }particular and even more dedicated subjects like SysAdmin.  } - }Just a quick glance at my bookshelf reveals:g } 1 }"Introducing the UNIX System", McGraw-Hill, 1983 @ }"UNIX System V Primer (Revised Edition)", The Waite Group, 19873 }"UNIX System Administration", Harcourt Brace, 1987lI }"UNIX SYSTEM Administration Handbook (2nd Edition)", Prentice Hall, 1994vI }"UNIX SYSTEM Administration Handbook (3rd Edition)", Prentice Hall, 200105 }"LINUX Administration Handbook", Prentice Hall, 2002  } G }And that is hardly exhaustive.  And what books are available for VMS??p }  }bill F }PS. As an aside, I would strongly recommend those last two for peopleD }who need to do UNIX and/or Linux Admin work.  Really good books and5 }I don't say that just cause I know the authors.  :-)o }-- K }Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesh  0 And how many of those books CAME WITH your Unix?  F The VMS documentation comes with VMS. It is so good that there is veryF little market for additional books, especially anything as basic as anG "Introduction to..." or "Administration Handbook" since that is alreadyf! in the stuff you get with the OS.n   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:53:09 GMTt# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?J Message-ID: <9QxN8.252346$ah_.138806@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  = "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote in messaged& news:ae60dm0230s@enews3.newsguy.com...4 > Bill Gunshannon <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote:0 > > Just a quick glance at my bookshelf reveals: >e4 > > "Introducing the UNIX System", McGraw-Hill, 1983C > > "UNIX System V Primer (Revised Edition)", The Waite Group, 1987i6 > > "UNIX System Administration", Harcourt Brace, 1987L > > "UNIX SYSTEM Administration Handbook (2nd Edition)", Prentice Hall, 1994L > > "UNIX SYSTEM Administration Handbook (3rd Edition)", Prentice Hall, 20018 > > "LINUX Administration Handbook", Prentice Hall, 2002 >tJ > > And that is hardly exhaustive.  And what books are available for VMS?? >nK > Well, I for one have about as many 3rd Party VMS books as I do UNIX booksoF > (about a shelf).  Then there are the *SHELVES* (about 1.5-2 fullsize	 bookcasespI > full) of DEC/Compaq VMS documentation that I've got (as well as all thev > documentation CD-ROMs).  > I > > PS. As an aside, I would strongly recommend those last two for peoplevG > > who need to do UNIX and/or Linux Admin work.  Really good books andt8 > > I don't say that just cause I know the authors.  :-) > K > I'd add "Unix for the Impatient", "Essential System Administration" (from K > O'Rielly), and one of Mark Sobell's books.  The one I've got sitting hereu isH > "A Practical Guide to UNIX System V", it's quite ancient, and he's had many1 > versions since this one, but it's still useful.e  G And one final 'must have' for any VMS shop - "The Unix Haters Handbook"  ISBN 1-56884-203-1.0  " At the risk of flames............. From Book News, Inc.F This book maintains that the UNIX computer operating system is fatallyL flawed because it never outgrew its origins as a necessity for playing SpaceJ Travel on a PDP-7 when AT&T "pulled the plug on Multics." In addition, theJ design of UNIX is infected with the "MIT approach" that "worse is better."I For example, it is better to be simple than correct. These assertions ared@ supported by detailed chapters covering the UNIX user interface,B documentation, e-mail, terminal support (especially the "disaster"K X-Windows), programming, and file systems. Much support for these arguments E comes from reprinted selections from the fellowship of UNIX-haters ongJ Usenet. The book is infused with humor, but makes many telling and serious points.  ....................h   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:34:03 GMTs3 From: skidmore@alternate-venue.org (Barry Skidmore)i& Subject: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File2 Message-ID: <vVuN8.223$yK6.52134@news1.iquest.net>  L I need some help with defining a key sequence in the EDTINI.EDT file for theO EDT editor.  I have looked at the "Introduction to EDT" documentation, but neede some additional help.t  L I am trying to define the F17 key to press the PF4 key (Commmand:) and enter1 the command "Exit" followed by a carriage return.w   Any help would be appreciated.# -----------------------------------E Barry Skidmore# skidmore at alternate-venue dot orge  Hobbyist MicroVAX 3100-40 System Running OpenVMS 7.2r# -----------------------------------r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:02:31 -0400u/ From: "Joe H. Gallagher" <dtrwiz@ix.netcom.com>o* Subject: Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File- Message-ID: <3D06B9C7.69BAB27B@ix.netcom.com>    Barry Skidmore wrote:d > N > I need some help with defining a key sequence in the EDTINI.EDT file for theQ > EDT editor.  I have looked at the "Introduction to EDT" documentation, but needO > some additional help.i > N > I am trying to define the F17 key to press the PF4 key (Commmand:) and enter3 > the command "Exit" followed by a carriage return.a >   > Any help would be appreciated.% > -----------------------------------u > Barry Skidmore% > skidmore at alternate-venue dot orgh" > Hobbyist MicroVAX 3100-40 System > Running OpenVMS 7.2f% > -----------------------------------t  
 What about  & 	DEFINE KEY FUNCTION 17 AS "EXT EXIT."   Will that do what you want?g   Joe H. Gallagher, Ph. D. WRUG LUG Chair" Former SIG Chair/Newsletter Editor 4GL/DATATRIEVE SIG of DECUSa" See "The DATATRIEVE Programmer" at http://dtrwiz.home.netcom.com/ dtrwiz at ix dot netcom dot comu   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 22:19:33 -0700# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley)o* Subject: Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0206112119.720cbee0@posting.google.com>h  m skidmore@alternate-venue.org (Barry Skidmore) wrote in message news:<vVuN8.223$yK6.52134@news1.iquest.net>...aN > I need some help with defining a key sequence in the EDTINI.EDT file for theQ > EDT editor.  I have looked at the "Introduction to EDT" documentation, but need0 > some additional help." > N > I am trying to define the F17 key to press the PF4 key (Commmand:) and enter3 > the command "Exit" followed by a carriage return.o >   > Any help would be appreciated.% > -----------------------------------8 > Barry Skidmore% > skidmore at alternate-venue dot org " > Hobbyist MicroVAX 3100-40 System > Running OpenVMS 7.2s% > -----------------------------------i& This defines gold+x to exit the editor) (I don't know how to specify the f17 key)i DEF KEY GOLD X AS "EXT EXIT."4 Phil   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:32:01 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a Subject: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM; Message-ID: <01KITFNFA6JK96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>y  H What is the real purpose of /TRANS=TERM?  I know what it DOES, I'm just   wondering why this is necessary.  H Is it just to tell the OS "hey, I'm telling you this doesn't need to be E translated further, so you don't need to waste any resources trying"?   H Of course, specifying /TRANS=TERM when this isn't the truth leads to an D error.  The opposite, leaving it out when it could be specified: is 6 there any situation where this could lead to an error?  @ Presumably the performance hit caused by trying to translate it I iteratively only to find that one is already at the terminal translation -G is negligible on a modern system (but might have been an issue back in c the 11/780 days).c   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:52:20 -0400e, From: "J. Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com> Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM/ Message-ID: <ugchd27elvnm25@corp.supernews.com>i  < It seems to me that one of the uses is to provide a seamless; appearance of the DCL environment to end users, e.g. ALWAYSe9 define DISK$USER as some terminal logical name,  so that, D regardless of the actual environment (different system, new upgrade,8 whatever), a constant view is presented to the end user.   Fwiw Scott,F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KITFNFA6JK96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...aI > What is the real purpose of /TRANS=TERM?  I know what it DOES, I'm juste" > wondering why this is necessary. >@I > Is it just to tell the OS "hey, I'm telling you this doesn't need to beyG > translated further, so you don't need to waste any resources trying"?y > I > Of course, specifying /TRANS=TERM when this isn't the truth leads to an2E > error.  The opposite, leaving it out when it could be specified: iss8 > there any situation where this could lead to an error? >nA > Presumably the performance hit caused by trying to translate it<J > iteratively only to find that one is already at the terminal translationH > is negligible on a modern system (but might have been an issue back in > the 11/780 days).D >    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:56:15 +0100 (MET)i9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>a Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM; Message-ID: <01KITGMM8C1296WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>o  > > It seems to me that one of the uses is to provide a seamless= > appearance of the DCL environment to end users, e.g. ALWAYSl; > define DISK$USER as some terminal logical name,  so that,hF > regardless of the actual environment (different system, new upgrade,: > whatever), a constant view is presented to the end user.  ) Aren't you referring to /TRANC=CONC here?   E Also, if I define DISK$FOO as DKA100: and then DISK$USER as DISK$FOO,oE but with the /TRAN=CONC attribute, then as far as the users go thingsrF look the same.  DISK$FOO, in this example, could be defined /TRAN=CON 1 and/or /TRAN=TERM, but neither is necessary here.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:24:35 -0400n' From: "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov>i Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM, Message-ID: <ae5ipl$htu$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>  K I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that /Trans=Term was therea= to prevent a user from re-directing a logical someplace else.>    F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KITFNFA6JK96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com... I > What is the real purpose of /TRANS=TERM?  I know what it DOES, I'm just " > wondering why this is necessary. > I > Is it just to tell the OS "hey, I'm telling you this doesn't need to beoG > translated further, so you don't need to waste any resources trying"?  > I > Of course, specifying /TRANS=TERM when this isn't the truth leads to andE > error.  The opposite, leaving it out when it could be specified: is 8 > there any situation where this could lead to an error? > A > Presumably the performance hit caused by trying to translate itMJ > iteratively only to find that one is already at the terminal translationH > is negligible on a modern system (but might have been an issue back in > the 11/780 days).n >c   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:46:40 -0400t, From: "J. Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com> Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM/ Message-ID: <ugckj02i1uh78d@corp.supernews.com>p  2 "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov> wrote in message& news:ae5ipl$htu$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov...G > I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that /Trans=Term was- there-? > to prevent a user from re-directing a logical someplace else.. >   Nope - that's /NOALIAS (I think) Scottr >nH > "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message7 > news:01KITFNFA6JK96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...zK > > What is the real purpose of /TRANS=TERM?  I know what it DOES, I'm justs$ > > wondering why this is necessary. > > K > > Is it just to tell the OS "hey, I'm telling you this doesn't need to be I > > translated further, so you don't need to waste any resources trying"?- > > K > > Of course, specifying /TRANS=TERM when this isn't the truth leads to anyG > > error.  The opposite, leaving it out when it could be specified: is': > > there any situation where this could lead to an error? > >aC > > Presumably the performance hit caused by trying to translate itcL > > iteratively only to find that one is already at the terminal translationJ > > is negligible on a modern system (but might have been an issue back in > > the 11/780 days).g > >e >3 >9   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 14:51:06 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM3 Message-ID: <tKc8YG24ERxf@eisner.encompasserve.org>   w In article <01KITFNFA6JK96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes: J > What is the real purpose of /TRANS=TERM?  I know what it DOES, I'm just " > wondering why this is necessary. > J > Is it just to tell the OS "hey, I'm telling you this doesn't need to be G > translated further, so you don't need to waste any resources trying"?a > J > Of course, specifying /TRANS=TERM when this isn't the truth leads to an F > error.  The opposite, leaving it out when it could be specified: is 8 > there any situation where this could lead to an error? > A > Presumably the performance hit caused by trying to translate ithK > iteratively only to find that one is already at the terminal translation tI > is negligible on a modern system (but might have been an issue back in i > the 11/780 days).   E It's not there to stop you from incurring the expense of a subsequentvA _failed_ lookup.  It's there to stop you from incurring the errora$ of a subsequent _successful_ lookup.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:51:42 -0400n' From: "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov>g Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM, Message-ID: <ae5kcf$mpl$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>  J That is true for duplicating the logical name.  I was thinking more of theL case where Disk is defined as $2$DUA230: and the user then defines $2$DUA230L as $2$DUA250:.  This is probably not a good example, but it is the first oneK I could create.  If the first logical is defined with /Trans=Term, then theG" second translation does not occur.  
 Dale A. Marcy>  7 "J. Scott Greig" <jsgreig@geminaq.com> wrote in message0) news:ugckj02i1uh78d@corp.supernews.com...  >l4 > "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov> wrote in message( > news:ae5ipl$htu$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov...I > > I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that /Trans=Term wasi > there A > > to prevent a user from re-directing a logical someplace else.  > > " > Nope - that's /NOALIAS (I think) > Scottd > >)J > > "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message9 > > news:01KITFNFA6JK96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...PH > > > What is the real purpose of /TRANS=TERM?  I know what it DOES, I'm just& > > > wondering why this is necessary. > > > J > > > Is it just to tell the OS "hey, I'm telling you this doesn't need to beK > > > translated further, so you don't need to waste any resources trying"?t > > >hJ > > > Of course, specifying /TRANS=TERM when this isn't the truth leads to anI > > > error.  The opposite, leaving it out when it could be specified: isI< > > > there any situation where this could lead to an error? > > >tE > > > Presumably the performance hit caused by trying to translate it"B > > > iteratively only to find that one is already at the terminal translationoL > > > is negligible on a modern system (but might have been an issue back in > > > the 11/780 days).e > > >m > >  > >o >s >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:47:47 -0400-* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> Subject: RE: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM- Message-ID: <0033000067629105000002L052*@MHS>g  # =0AI've got an idea.  Let's RTFOLH.m   $ HELP DEFINE /TRANSLATION   DEFINE     /TRANSLATION_ATTRIBUTES   3         /TRANSLATION_ATTRIBUTES[=3D(keyword[,...])]          Equivalence-name qualifier.  @      Specifies one or more attributes that modify an equivalenceB      string of the logical name. Possible keywords are as follows:  D      CONCEALED  Indicates that the equivalence string is the name ofC                 a concealed device. When a concealed device name isuE                 defined, the system displays the logical name, ratherBF                 than the equivalence string, in messages that refer to                 the device.b  >      TERMINAL   Logical name translation should terminate with>                 the current equivalence string; indicates that?                 the equivalence string should not be translated                  iteratively.  C      If you specify only one keyword, you can omit the parentheses.i-      Only the attributes you specify are set.0  B      Note that different equivalence strings of a logical name can+      have different translation attributes.v   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETw$ Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:40 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET  Subject: RE: DEFINE/TRANS=3DTERM    2 "Dale A. Marcy" <dqm@y12.doe.gov> wrote in message& news:ae5ipl$htu$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov...H > I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that /Trans=3DTerm w= as there ? > to prevent a user from re-directing a logical someplace else.s >i  Nope - that's /NOALIAS (I think) Scotto >oH > "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in messag= et7 > news:01KITFNFA6JK96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...-H > > What is the real purpose of /TRANS=3DTERM?  I know what it DOES, I'= m just$ > > wondering why this is necessary. > >gH > > Is it just to tell the OS "hey, I'm telling you this doesn't need t= o beH > > translated further, so you don't need to waste any resources trying= "? > >sH > > Of course, specifying /TRANS=3DTERM when this isn't the truth leads=  to anH > > error.  The opposite, leaving it out when it could be specified: is=  : > > there any situation where this could lead to an error? > > C > > Presumably the performance hit caused by trying to translate it H > > iteratively only to find that one is already at the terminal transl= ation4H > > is negligible on a modern system (but might have been an issue back=  in  > > the 11/780 days).o > >d >k >=   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 15:20:53 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0206111420.4495e516@posting.google.com>a  | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KITFNFA6JK96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...J > What is the real purpose of /TRANS=TERM?  I know what it DOES, I'm just " > wondering why this is necessary. > J > Is it just to tell the OS "hey, I'm telling you this doesn't need to be G > translated further, so you don't need to waste any resources trying"?h > J > Of course, specifying /TRANS=TERM when this isn't the truth leads to an F > error.  The opposite, leaving it out when it could be specified: is 8 > there any situation where this could lead to an error?    C Yes. If a user defines an existing device name or node name to be aaE logical name, then any logical names that translate to that device or8B node name will not work as intended unless their equivalence names have the TERMINAL attribute.  	 Example: t   A user runs the commandl        $ DEFINE DKA100 myfile.dat !  D Now, imagine if SYS$SYSDEVICE were defined to be DKA100: without theC terminal attribute! That would produce a big error(!), at least forn
 your process.   @ Another use is to mask other logical names. Suppose there were aC logical name SPOOK defined to be DISK$STRANGE: in the system table. 2 But you want to use SPOOK as SPOOK. Then you could  8     $ DEFINE SPOOK SPOOK/TRANSLATION_ATTRIBUTES=TERMINAL  B and your process won't see the system definition. Someone actuallyF asked how to do this in this forum a while back. (Of course if you areE using SPOOK as a file-spec argument you could just add a "clue" as ina9 "$ DIRECTORY SPOOK;*", or "$ DIRECTORY SPOOK.*" instead.)-    B > Presumably the performance hit caused by trying to translate it K > iteratively only to find that one is already at the terminal translation eI > is negligible on a modern system (but might have been an issue back in t > the 11/780 days).e    F Perhaps it was, but using /TERMINAL_ATTRIBUTES=TERMINAL also means youD are guaranteed that translation will stop with your equivalence name3 regardless of what someone else might define it as.(     Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman"" afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:12:57 -0700 2 From: "Randy Park" <rjpark@mindspring.nospaam.com> Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM2 Message-ID: <ae63ss$9c8$1@slb5.atl.mindspring.net>  ; Here's my understanding of how I used it and why I used it.2  = I managed a small VMScluster and network, consisting of abouto6 10 - 12 disk drives.  Some of the disks would be local= and some would be cluster and some would be remoted depending 9 upon which system you were on.  The startup files on eachE; system would be slightly different but would be similar to:I%         DEFINE            DISKA DUA0:n%         DEFINE            DISKB DUA1: -         DEFINE/TRANS=TERM DISKC ROCKY$DKA300:4-         DEFINE/TRANS=TERM DISKD ROCKY$DKA200:"	         :y	         : -         DEFINE/TRANS=TERM DISKI BORIS$DKA400:   6 Now...  RMS, when accessing files, translates logicals; all the way, so that it can access the file.  RMS will also1< return to the program the name of the file after the various> logical translations have been performed, but for the purposes7 of this returned filename, it stops translating when itr3 encounter a logical with the termination attribute.   ? For example, if I:  DEFINE MYORDER DISKC:[DATA]ORDER_MASTER.DATr: and then use the filename MYORDER in a utility program, or= even a sophisticated application program, RMS will internally08 translate MYORDER to ROCKY$DKA300:[DATA]ORDER_MASTER.DAT: but RMS will return to the program the translated filename6 of DISKC:[DATA]ORDER_MASTER.DAT. Given the appropriate9 option or qualifier, the program may display some kind of:= confirmation using a filename of DISKC:[DATA]ORDER_MASTER.DATw: because that's the translated filename given to it by RMS.  = This allows the designer of the logical to control what levelt? of translation the end user will see.  In this case the logicald< disk DISKC is separated from the physical disk ROCKY$DKA300.  < This is how I have used this feature of logical definitions.    D Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KITFNFA6JK96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...oI > What is the real purpose of /TRANS=TERM?  I know what it DOES, I'm just-" > wondering why this is necessary. > I > Is it just to tell the OS "hey, I'm telling you this doesn't need to beDG > translated further, so you don't need to waste any resources trying"?1 >uI > Of course, specifying /TRANS=TERM when this isn't the truth leads to an-E > error.  The opposite, leaving it out when it could be specified: isP8 > there any situation where this could lead to an error? > A > Presumably the performance hit caused by trying to translate it J > iteratively only to find that one is already at the terminal translationH > is negligible on a modern system (but might have been an issue back in > the 11/780 days)., >e   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 18:35:18 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM< Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0206111735.35c5a76@posting.google.com>  s spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) wrote in message news:<b096a4ee.0206111420.4495e516@posting.google.com>...s~ > Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KITFNFA6JK96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...L > > What is the real purpose of /TRANS=TERM?  I know what it DOES, I'm just $ > > wondering why this is necessary.   [snip]   > Example: n >  > A user runs the commands > " >     $ DEFINE DKA100 myfile.dat ! > F > Now, imagine if SYS$SYSDEVICE were defined to be DKA100: without theE > terminal attribute! That would produce a big error(!), at least fore > your process.e    B ... at least for the *user's* process, that is. Actually, the factD that privileged images ignore user and supervisor mode logical namesE would prevent DKA100 from being translated at least for those images.@B But there could still be trouble when using non-priviliged images.   [snip]   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmanr" afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:59:35 CDT / From: Charles Sandmann <sandmann@clio.rice.edu>y5 Subject: Free or Best Offer: VAX and RS/6000 hardwareS- Message-ID: <3d064897.sandmann@clio.rice.edu>   F Early 90's vintage DEC VAX systems and peripherals, IBM RS/6000 parts.   http://clio.rice.edu/freehw.txtl  H Other items lying around my office since I created the list may also be D available (hard disks, Alpha systems with dead power supplies, etc).  B Pickup in far west Houston, Texas, USA.  I would prefer to supportG VMS hobby usage, but anyone who shows up to take the big stuff gets it.-  D I don't have time to package or ship anything, but if you are reallyB desperate for something I might be able to find someone for you to negotiate with.-   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 18:23:18 -0700# From: fs63@volcanomail.com (Tim C.) > Subject: How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?= Message-ID: <399504c6.0206111723.38278c32@posting.google.com>s  D We have an Ethernet network of VAXes running DECNet and VMS 5.5-2.  5 How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?t   Thanks,. Timr fs62@volcanomail.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:59:31 -0400S- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>bB Subject: Re: How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?, Message-ID: <3D06AAEF.B4D8A26C@videotron.ca>   "Tim C." wrote:b > D > We have an Ethernet network of VAXes running DECNet and VMS 5.5-2.7 > How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?d  0 if $ MC NCL works, then you are running DECNET 5B if $MC NCL doesn't work, then you are running the better DECNET 4.    Q MC NCP SHOW EXEC CHAR will reveal a DECNET 4 version as the "Management version".t   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:29:03 -0400h- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>JH Subject: Re: HP Canada "Optimize IT Conference & Showcase National Tour"5 Message-ID: <ae5j20$44psi$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>h  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageK > I just got off the telephone with the personal assistant to the presidenty ofI > HP Canada, and have been assured that I will get a call back today fromA theR > president regarding OpenVMS.  E Did you every hear anything back on this? I never got a reply from mye contact on this issue.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:48:19 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>MH Subject: Re: HP Canada "Optimize IT Conference & Showcase National Tour"J Message-ID: <DLxN8.294095$t8_.116939@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  + See my post just prior to your last one....-    I I wound up speaking with Lynn Anderson of HP Canada. She's the Enterprise<K Systems Marketing Manager in Canada, and reports directly to Paul Tsaparis,h( who is the President & CEO of HP Canada.  	 etc......e    G Call her and invite her and Paul to your shop to speak with your seniorw' execs about how committed HP is to VMS.   H Suggest you have a *very* pointed set of questions for them, and if theyE don't have answers you might want to give them 4-5 days to check withiJ galactic HQ and then have them come back with the answers. By come back, IL mean another face-to-face meeting so you can read the body language and look them in the eyes and decide.  K You may also want to ask them what HP will do if they break any commitmentstH they make to Stelco (best if you get both in writing and hand it over toD your legal department for safekeeping. In fact, you may want to haveK somebody from your legal department sit in on any meetings you have with HP  regarding VMS.  L If I were Jim Alfano and I had any knowledge of what has transpired over theG past 10 years of VMS vis-a-vis commitments made and broken and how thateK threatens your business and increases costs to your shareholders, I'd order H you to have 5 lawyers in the room anytime anyone from HP arrived at your shop.           8 "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote in message/ news:ae5j20$44psi$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de...J0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC > > I just got off the telephone with the personal assistant to ther	 presidentr > ofK > > HP Canada, and have been assured that I will get a call back today fromb > theB  > > president regarding OpenVMS. >sG > Did you every hear anything back on this? I never got a reply from myj > contact on this issue. >  >e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:43:48 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>nH Subject: Re: HP Canada "Optimize IT Conference & Showcase National Tour", Message-ID: <3D06B54D.EA5543D8@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote: M > You may also want to ask them what HP will do if they break any commitmentssJ > they make to Stelco (best if you get both in writing and hand it over toF > your legal department for safekeeping. In fact, you may want to haveM > somebody from your legal department sit in on any meetings you have with HPb > regarding VMS.  N I remember a Compaq presentation last automn shortly after the HP announcementI it would buy Compaq. The Compaq folks mentioned a few times that HP would K honour all contracts signed on paper by Compaq and that now aas the time to-5 negotiate contracts and make sure they were on paper.   : That was a not-so subtle message that HP can't be trusted.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 03:58:52 GMTi1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>nH Subject: Re: HP Canada "Optimize IT Conference & Showcase National Tour"; Message-ID: <0GzN8.12772$R61.348@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>g  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D06B54D.EA5543D8@videotron.ca... > John Smith wrote:tC > > You may also want to ask them what HP will do if they break anyr commitmentsoL > > they make to Stelco (best if you get both in writing and hand it over toH > > your legal department for safekeeping. In fact, you may want to haveL > > somebody from your legal department sit in on any meetings you have with HP > > regarding VMS. >oC > I remember a Compaq presentation last automn shortly after the HP  announcementK > it would buy Compaq. The Compaq folks mentioned a few times that HP wouldsJ > honour all contracts signed on paper by Compaq and that now aas the time to7 > negotiate contracts and make sure they were on paper.R > < > That was a not-so subtle message that HP can't be trusted.  K Or it could be a not-so-subtle message that mergers change a lot of things.eK The CPQ folks did the right thing by urging you to get the paperwork out ofs the way pre-merger.    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 07:01:32 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)n; Subject: Re: Is Polycenter for VMS a good security product?u3 Message-ID: <kM9eFUC5WnmF@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3D058604.253E34E5@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:i > dittman@dittman.net wrote: >> n) >> Main, Kerry <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote:m >> : Rainer, >> i. >> :>>> Dealing with CA was a heavy matter.<<< >> )L >> : While I will certainly not argue this point, I do know CA is apparentlyI >> : trying to rectify their image and pricing issues that many Customersu >> : have had in the past. >> sL >> : As an example, I was told a couple of weeks ago that CA has drasticallyJ >> : dropped the prices for many of the OpenVMS related products e.g. likeM >> : what was formerly called DECps (now Unicenter Performance Management for  >> : OpenVMS). >> e@ >> What is a pain is the products no longer use LMF.  The new CA- >> license manager can be a pain in the butt.a > H > ...and as has been discussed recently, some corporate policies preventG > the implementation of non-LMF-compliant software, partly for securityuH > but mostly to control the costs associated with license adminstration.  A The great overlooked advantage of LMF is that it involves an OpenoB statement of what is allowed by the PAK and for how long.  CrypticA N-digit numbers without the accompanying clear indication of whatc, is permitted do not give one a warm feeling.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 22:25:39 -0700, From: joelbermanhp@hotmail.com (Joel Berman)/ Subject: Job Opening: Chief Competitive Officerr= Message-ID: <4c5f2eb6.0206112125.33bad4ce@posting.google.com>l  $ Job Title:	Chief Competitive Officer Organization:	HP Region:		Palo Alto State/Province:	CA- Job Type:	Executive Level Management PositionM Date Submitted:	6/01/2002e For More Info:	marketing@hp.comM Job Description:  A HP invites applications and nominations for the newly establishedN, position of Chief Competitive Officer (CCO).  A Description: Appointed by and reporting to the Vice President for : Marketing, the Chief Competitive Officer, working in closeB collaboration with executive and staff members in all units of the: corporation. The CCO provides visionary leadership for theD development, deployment, and management of deception and fabricationE of facts to achieve the mission of retaining and growing the customer.@ install base with fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). The CCO has? responsibility for strategic scheming, competitive accusations, @ marketing spin, fact minipulation, and advertising through press= releases and announcement infomercials to press and analysts.a  F Qualifications: A degree is preferred, in a relevant field. Candidates= must have at least 10 years of creative thinking in marketinge@ experience; in an I/T environment organization preferred but notD required. Significant experience in stand up comedy, paper shreddingE and substantive knowledge of the impact of technology on a business'syB growth and or bankruptcy.  The successful candidate will also haveE superior statistical skills to take any disturbing trend of decreased E revenue and unprofitability and show it as leadership.  Collaborative-F leadership skills to establish and maintain a team environment, strongC oral and written communication skills, a record of disparagement in2C the industry, and the ability to interact effectively with low lifed members of the community.t  E Application: For full consideration, submit cover letter, rsum, andhF the names, addresses, telephone numbers, and e-mail addresses of three> references to: Human Resources, HP, Palo Alto, CA. Application@ materials can be submitted electronically to recruiting@hp.com .F Review of applicants begins July 1, 2002, and continues until position( is filled. INTERNET: http://www.hp.com/.  8 HP is an Affirmative Action, Equal Opportunity Employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 11:16:37 -07001 From: glenmark@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Glen Martin)s. Subject: Lively VMS discussion at Macslash.com= Message-ID: <6e2f14f4.0206111016.649d20f4@posting.google.com>i  4 Someone posted a query at http://www.macslash.com (aD Macintosh-oriented weblog) regarding the availability of a DCL clone for Mac OS X. Any ideas?  E Seems to have triggered some lively discussions about VMS, as well asn/ bringing to light some common misconceptions...    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:13:16 GMTe( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>2 Subject: Re: Lively VMS discussion at Macslash.com+ Message-ID: <3D064C1E.CF761AF5@pacbell.net>a   Glen Martin wrote: > 6 > Someone posted a query at http://www.macslash.com (aF > Macintosh-oriented weblog) regarding the availability of a DCL clone > for Mac OS X. Any ideas? > G > Seems to have triggered some lively discussions about VMS, as well asa1 > bringing to light some common misconceptions...i   Agree. Lively and ignorant.$ -- C   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com) 
 San Franciscoy   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:25:54 GMTa( From: "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii5@ACM5.org>K Subject: Re: Logical names and search lists (was: Carly was here in ZKO...)d> Message-ID: <69sN8.30$WD6.24@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   JF Mezei wrote:    > "C.W.Holeman II" wrote:oG >> Does any Unix or anything else have logical names with search lists?i >> Just wondering. > H > MVS has had the equivalent of logical names in JCL since last century.   With search lists?   -- - C.W.Holeman II cwhii5@ACM5.org5 remove the fives http://also.as/cwhii   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 17:17:43 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)0 Subject: Major bug in Linux kernel found by AMD!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206111617.1e81bdde@posting.google.com>o  @ and says short term fix is no long term solution ... so much for "free" linux garbage!     1 AMD says Linux kernel bug affects latest Athlons     But fixes already available ( By the INQUIRER, 11/06/2002 19:27:29 BST  ? AMD SAID THERE IS A LINUX KERNEL BUG related to cache attributenB conflicts in newer versions of the Athlon XP and Athlon MP and has= appealed to the Linux Community to help it solve the problem.2C A posting reveals that the problem is related to the use of the AGPKA Aperture with Athlon processors but there appear to be short terml# fixes and long term fixes en route.f  E A note from Richard Brunner at AMD outlines the problems which happene# mostly when an AGP card is present.e  A But Brunner says that there's a simple short term solution to thep@ problems without major fixes needing implementation in the Linux kernel.   D There's already a kernel patch available although Brunner points out4 there's still a hole left using this short term fix.  C As far as the long term solution is concerned, AMD also provides ann& experimental patch to fix the problem.  & You can find the posting at this page.  D AMD says in the note that it is "sort of new" to the Linux CommunityA but is giving a lot of detail about the problem so that it can bei fixed quickly.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:12:10 -0400t( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>9 Subject: Re: Mounting shadowset system disks across a SANe, Message-ID: <3D0667AA.7000709@tsoft-inc.com>  J I agree.  Why would you put any of the eggs in other than the best basket?   Dave   Mike Rechtman wrote:  K > I think a good principle in this case would be "put all your eggs in one s! > basket, AND WATCH THAT BASKET!"e > 0 > Nothing is foolproof - fools are too clever... >  > Mike >  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > G >> In article <01KIT8HBASFO96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip s6 >> Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes: >>< >>>>    I do know that a cluster-common system disk, despite> >>>>    being shadowed, can still be a single point of failure@ >>>>    for an entire cluster, in the event someone accidentally: >>>>    does a DELETE *.*;* or something.  Having multiple< >>>>    system disks is more work to manage, but can allow a0 >>>>    cluster to survive this type of failure. >>>> >>> Well, there is >>>   SYSMAN> DO DELETE *.*;*  >>>n0 >>> Real stupidity is difficult to prevent.  :-| >>>  >>* >> That is why VMS can boot from CDROM :-) >> >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:20:34 -0700 0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>9 Subject: Re: Mounting shadowset system disks across a SANc, Message-ID: <3D061542.18E0F60E@Mvb.Saic.Com>   Keith Parris wrote:w > - > norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote in messagep= > news:<OFD8FC3770.B1DF3E2E-ON85256BD1.00517611@metso.com>...hE > > In the April 2001 white paper "Fibre Channel in Disaster-Tolerant-? > > OpenVMS Cluster System" it say in footnote 2 on page 5 thatnB > > "mounting system disk shadow sets in DT configurations on both > > sites is not recommended." > = > At this point in the white paper, they are still discussing G > traditional disaster-tolerant cluster theory (they won't get to Fibre  > Channel until Page 7). > C > Prior to Fibre Channel, it was not feasible in practice to have alC > shared, common system disk for the entire cluster and try to booti@ > systems from it at both sites.  This was because all access toE > shadowset members at the opposite site was via the VMS MSCP Server,hE > and so you didn't have any access to remote disks until there was a F > VMS system booted (or at least far enough along in its boot sequence; > for the VMS MSCP Server to be active) at the remote site.1 > H > Let's say you did have a shared system disk between sites.  You boot aH > system at one site first, and since it cannot yet see any disks at theH > opposite site, it must form a single-member shadowset of the member atG > its own site.  Next, you boot a system at the other site, and it mustrG > boot from the local member of the system disk at its site, since fromkE > the boot prompt it cannot see the disks at the opposite site.  WhenHF > VMS on that system gets far enough along in the boot to try to mountG > the system disk as a shadowset, it discovers that the local member itpH > has booted from had been removed from the shadowset, and is now out ofC > date, and the node crashes with a Shadowing Detected Inconsistent- > State bugcheck.-  H Or, you could do it the way I've done it with a 3-site, 3-member clusterF that doesn't have Fibre Channel.  The system disk is a 3-member shadowE set, with each member local to one node of the cluster.  Each node isEG configured to boot from the network, not directly from disk.  Thus, thewF scenario you describe above doesn't happen.  The booting member simplyF adds his local disk into the shadowset rather than finding a shadowsetG conflict.  I even have the files on the system disk explicitly laid outHE so that the most commonly read files are nearest the beginning of theAF disk so that reads from the local system disk will occur as quickly as& possible after the shadow copy starts.  F In the ultimate failure scenario, where all 3 nodes have failed at theG same time.  We determine which node failed last (and thus, is likely toe@ be the most up to date) and manually boot it to form the initialE shadowsets.  The other nodes are then booted normally.  This level of-) failure has, of course, not yet happened.   H It is interesting, is it not, the number of different valid ways one can configure a VMS cluster?  
 Mark BerrymanS Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:37:33 -0500o& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesl8 Message-ID: <ipncgu837j3meh7i47c28lc1m2vuusq0hf@4ax.com>  E On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:12:43 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancya4 <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote:     > ? >So if you claim that the current boxes are competitive produce-@ >some actual results that demonstrate this. Oh I forgot actually< >being able to back up the inflated claims made for Alpha on5 >this newsgroup has never been a strong point has it.  >x >Where are the numbers ?  C We have many, many customers who are very happy with their 8400 and  GS160/320 systems.  F We can't always talk about specific customers, but it you like you can@ look at the Compaq web pages for customer testimonials yourself.    1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq.- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:14:30 -0400S- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>q Subject: Re: No new Alpha saleso, Message-ID: <3D066835.A21FFA70@videotron.ca>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:; > Thats what you should ask yourself ? Why is it that I cana= > make the claim that Alpha isn't the performance leader thatn  > the Alpha advocates say it is,    M Andrew, you seem to focus on the performance of a SYSTEM (notably wildfires). H Perhaps Wildfires were version 1.0 of a *system* architecture and didn'tJ deliver the anticipated performance. (combine this with the fact that theyG were late, which means that when they arrived to market, they were "olde technology" already.  L However just because Wildfires don't impress you doesn't mean that the AlphaN CPU itself isn't impressive. Similarly, just because Sparc isn't impressive asX a chip, it doesn't mean that Sun can't produce nice little systems that look impressive.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:42:56 -0700a0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesd, Message-ID: <3D060C70.68005110@Mvb.Saic.Com>   Andrew Dodd wrote: > : > I got very confused as to who was being linked with who. > L > There is a danger of rewriting history here. The 8400 was a very succesfulK > system - we sold thousands, outselling just about everything else. At the J > time. That was certainly backed up by shipment figures at the time. Do IF > still have the press announcements - no. Is there any point in goingJ > backwards? I certainly don't wish to it's history. Sure you had to tradeM > slots - that wasn't uncommon. To bring that up to date how many 104 CPU 15K3B > do SUN expect to sell of the config used to get the best SPECjbbK > performance? You want some I/O as well? Well you'll have to take out some N > CPUs. Benchmarking is a game. You post the best figure you can regardless of > whether it matches reality.t > J > The Alpha processor is still a performance leader - in the ES45 it beatsA > just about all others. Hence it's use in all kinds of demandingsK > opportunities. GS series can be beaten on some benchmarks by other higherTN > CPU count systems - which I have always acknowledged. Compaq hasn't done anyC > really high end benchmarks for a while but I do believe, based ontH > extrapolation and customer specific benchmarks - which I would love toG > discuss but I can't, that Wildfire can match anybody else's similarly1L > configured systems. At the moment the really high end is elsewhere. Others- > may feel that is a cop out - suit yourself.& > 6 > We will wait and see what EV7 based systems achieve.  G For the record, as a systems engineer, I have been involved in choosingtG the architecture for many different requirements.  Whenever performancetC was an issue the benchmark used was a test of the customer's actualr@ application (sometimes very extensive tests), not some publishedG benchmark.  At least in those situations with which I was involved, SUN F was never the winner whereas Alpha, when it was involved, usually won.  H Andrew Harrison seems desperate to convince the world that alpha doesn'tH live up to its claims.  I've never had any trouble showing that it does.  
 Mark Berryman. Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:18:01 -0700q, From: "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com>. Subject: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector4 Message-ID: <ae5pea$4bbn4$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>  H I have a shareable image (alpha) built with an options file with entries like:s   abc=PROCEDURE, - ABC/abc=PROCEDURE, -  E to allow upper and lowercase calls to "abc".  When I want to remove a-< procedure, but keep the vector consistent, I know how to do:   abc=PRIVATE_PROCEDURE, -  F but I'm not sure what to do with the alias.  Linker doesn't like this:  8 ABC/abc=PRIVATE_PROCEDURE, -   (if abc already private).  < Should I just delet this line?  Any suggestions appreciated.   Jimp   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:56:23 GMT< From: danco@pebble.org2 Subject: Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector- Message-ID: <slrnagdbe0.2qa.danco@pebble.org>t  J In article <ae5pea$4bbn4$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>, James Gessling wrote:  G > to allow upper and lowercase calls to "abc".  When I want to remove ap+ > procedure, but keep the vector consistentc  4 Add new vectors ONLY at the end of your vector list.4 Never change the order.  Substitute the word "SPARE"( at the location of any "removed" vector.   e.g., SYMBOL_VECTOR=(SPARE)M  G Read the linker manual.  It's online at http://www.openvms.digital.com.l   - Dan    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 19:43:52 -0700# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley)l2 Subject: Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0206111843.3bb50952@posting.google.com>   h "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ae5pea$4bbn4$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>...J > I have a shareable image (alpha) built with an options file with entries > like:g >  > abc=PROCEDURE, - > ABC/abc=PROCEDURE, - > G > to allow upper and lowercase calls to "abc".  When I want to remove a > > procedure, but keep the vector consistent, I know how to do: >  > abc=PRIVATE_PROCEDURE, - > H > but I'm not sure what to do with the alias.  Linker doesn't like this: > : > ABC/abc=PRIVATE_PROCEDURE, -   (if abc already private). > > > Should I just delet this line?  Any suggestions appreciated. >  > Jimv Try replacing the line with  SPARE, -, and the linker will keep it as a placeholder Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:26:15 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n2 Subject: Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector, Message-ID: <3D06BF3D.A7CEC279@videotron.ca>  
 dooley wrote:n > Try replacing the line withr
 > SPARE, -. > and the linker will keep it as a placeholder    M Wouldn't the linker try to resolve "Spare" and complain about a spare routinetI being non-existant ? Or does the word "spare" have special significance ?f  L (I guess the solution would be to have a subroutine called "spare" somewhere in your objects being linked.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:38:51 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>, Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP, Message-ID: <3D066DE9.8757BEBB@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote:u@ > Imho - You are basing this statement on current IA64-1 systemsF > performance. The OpenVMS initial release will be on IA64-3 or IA64-4G > systems (or whatever the official naming standard is going to be ..).i  M I have absolutely no opinion on what VMS will be released on. All I know thatgN right now, it is promised vapourware of a totally unknown qualtity and timing.O  The only IA64 chip one can judge right now is Merced and it is not impressive.r  M If we don't know exact performance for McKinley is is supposed to be out real M soon now (by Intel standards, that would be within 2 years, right ?)  then it L would be pointless to speculate on what IA64 will look like 3 years down the road.   L The big question is whether IA64 will be able to eclipse the 8086 or whether8 the 8086 will speed up as much or even more than IA64.    E What one really has to wonder is what happens when the engineers havemI completed the port to IA64 ahead of schedule (they could finish it in oneA7 night, if they did a single all-nighter, right ???? :-)r  K Will HP keep IA64-VMS on the shelves until there is an IA64 system big/fastiK enough to take on the job needed by the remaining VMS installed base (thoseAB large shops with wildfires etc) ? Or will HP decide to release VMS3 commercially on whatever IA64 exists at that time ?u  M Remember: if HP is out to find an excuse to kill VMS, the lack of interest inm. VMS on IA64 will give them tons of ammunition.  I Carly's biggest fear would be that demand for VMS on Alpha remains strongiM enough that HP would have to extend Alpha with EV7A, EV7B etc etc where Alpha 8 would get about the same speed bumps that the 8086 gets.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 14:47:11 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)u Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206111347.5b04b35d@posting.google.com>    Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<ae4ors$dtc$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...s& > What is the source of your numbers ?  D IDC data for Q1 2002.  You might have forgotten that HP now benefits? from the pre-merger Compaq market share, and Sun loses out as a  result.   > Worldwide Unix server market share based on factory reveunues:	 HP: 34.1%a
 Sun: 33.6%
 IBM: 17.3%C [And as the recent VAR Business article advised, lots of people are-1 likely to move away from Sun to HP Unix and IBM.]:  ? I know Unix is the only game Sun can play, but when you look atL, servers with all operating systems, you get:	 HP: 31.1%.
 IBM: 23.3%
 Sun: 14.8%
 Dell: 8.0%  = You want to look at server units shipped instead of revenues?l	 HP: 32.8%o Dell: 18.2% 	 IBM 13.5%  Sun 6.5%  ; From Howard Elias's talk at European DECUS in Lyon, France: F The New HP now ranks at #9 on the Fortune 500 list. [Sun isn't even in
 the top 100.]a" HP is #1 in external storage (IDC)! HP is #1 in storage systems (IDC)  HP is #1 in SANs (Dataquest), HP is #1 in tape drives and automation (IDC)  > Thanks to the merger, HP has taken the lead in a lot of areas.: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 16:15:18 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206111515.66a1beb6@posting.google.com>    Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<ae575h$ihg$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...t > Main, Kerry wrote: >  > > Andrew, Andrew ... 2 > >  > > : > >>>>So where will you be if IA-64 doesn't deliver ???<<< > >>>> > < > You don't perhaps remember that my posting was in response9 > to Robs FUD about Sun and SPARC. Remember I have markete8 > share, performance and price performance numbers in my > favour which you don't.  >  > 	 > regardsa > Andrew Harrisons  B anyone could boost performance numbers if they put 80,000 in a box@ like Sun does ... let's see your single cpu againset single cpu,< not 80,000 sparcs to 1 alpha ... then you would get creamed!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:57:38 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP+ Message-ID: <3D068E67.D26A412@videotron.ca>h   Keith Parris wrote: @ > Worldwide Unix server market share based on factory reveunues: > HP: 34.1%  > Sun: 33.6% > IBM: 17.3%  E How different would those ranking be if it were based on sales to end1/ customers who actually pay for their hardware ?>  ? > You want to look at server units shipped instead of revenues?g > HP: 32.8%A
 > Dell: 18.2%- > IBM 13.5% 
 > Sun 6.5%  G If you exlude wintel junk to see the real enterprise market, how do thee rankings change ?    ------------------------------   Date: 11 Jun 2002 19:17 CDTg' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)E Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP- Message-ID: <11JUN200219171638@gerg.tamu.edu>a  . "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes...3 }"Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageHI }>>> And replace Alpha with IA64 and HP no longer has the chip that givesh }it the performance edge.<<< } ? }Imho - You are basing this statement on current IA64-1 systemsiE }performance. The OpenVMS initial release will be on IA64-3 or IA64-4 I }systems (or whatever the official naming standard is going to be ..). AndF }analogy to Alpha would be that OpenVMS on IPF is being developed on aB }EV4 class system with the expectation that its initial production* }shipment will be on an EV68 class system. }  }***L }Not even EV67-class.  McKinley will likely be a bit less than twice as fastJ }as Merced, and Montecito at introduction is unlikely to be much more thanK }twice as fast as McKinley, for a total performance increase over Merced ofhK }about 4x in 3 years (*including* clock-rate advances).  While I don't haveoJ }the numbers at hand, that sounds more like the difference between EV4 and }EV56. }  }- bill0  G I think the point was missed. Even if the Itanium-3 is the fastest chipaG available at the time, HP will no longer have a performance edge simplysJ because they will not be the only company selling Itanium-3 based systems.  J You can't have a performance edge if your systems are the same as everyone: else's systems. "The same" is not equal to "have an edge".  I Sure, they could probably get a *small* performance advantage by building I custom motherboards with more memory throughput (by doubling the width ofhF the memory, for example) or somthing along those lines. If they do so,D they will loose the very thing they have been saying they wanted allG along: to use the "industry standard" components. Any such systems will E cost more than the systems from the competition who uses the standard  chipsets and motherboards.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:50:59 -0400t- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP, Message-ID: <3D06A8F0.88CC5CC6@videotron.ca>   Carl Perkins wrote:eI > I think the point was missed. Even if the Itanium-3 is the fastest chip I > available at the time, HP will no longer have a performance edge simplyeL > because they will not be the only company selling Itanium-3 based systems.  L But if IA64 doesn't performs that well, then HP will be the only one selling systems based on it.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:03:33 GMTs3 From: skidmore@alternate-venue.org (Barry Skidmore)  Subject: OpenVMS Mailing Lists?d2 Message-ID: <VXqN8.217$yK6.51156@news1.iquest.net>  K I am looking for a general OpenVMS mailing list.  A Google search turned up K info-vax-request@mvb.saic.com with a mailing list called 'VMS'.  However, atL subscription request resulted in an automated return message that no list by that name exists.o# -----------------------------------i Barry Skidmore# skidmore at alternate-venue dot org   Hobbyist MicroVAX 3100-40 System Running OpenVMS 7.2s# -----------------------------------y   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:05:14 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)# Subject: Re: OpenVMS Mailing Lists? 5 Message-ID: <uuuN8.207737$305.2794466@news.chello.at>h  h In article <VXqN8.217$yK6.51156@news1.iquest.net>, skidmore@alternate-venue.org (Barry Skidmore) writes:1 >I am looking for a general OpenVMS mailing list.l  / Why a mailing list and not a USENET newsgroup ?i  L >                                                  A Google search turned upL >info-vax-request@mvb.saic.com with a mailing list called 'VMS'.  However, aM >subscription request resulted in an automated return message that no list byt >that name exists.  M Yup. The list is named INFO-VAX and there is a bi-directional gateway betweenaD that INFO-VAX mailing list and this COMP.OS.VMS newsgroup in USENET.  2 So, you are already there where you want to be ;-)   -Peter  F PS: If you really want to use the mailing list instead of USENET, thenI use "SUBSCRIBE" instead of "SUBSCRIBE VMS". The name of the mailling list1L is contained in the mailaddress used by the listroboter: "info-vax-request". -- m Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERu% Network and OpenVMS system specialistt E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:56:33 -0500n& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>P Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)8 Message-ID: <vuocgusfgsg56fi12kq6ee2fc5kr18dcpi@4ax.com>  A On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 18:09:37 +0000 (UTC), david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk  wrote:  f >In article <adqole$t07$1@fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes:  >>I'm no security expert, but... >>N >>I've read where SSH is a simple solution to a comlex problem.  That's OK butE >>I've also read that Kerberos is *really* a better solution, but its6L >>complexity keeps people away from it.  Kerberos is in TCP/IP services v5.3 >> >yO >If that were the case then its usually better to support the simpler solution. L >History suggests that complex solutions X400 mail, X500 directories usuallyJ >lose out to what appear to be simpler solutions SMTP, LDAP (even if laterN >those solutions have the complexity added back in as has happened with LDAP). >i  D Counter example:  Dumb Terminal vs Windows (of MS or MIT-X variety).  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaqe- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)c   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:08:32 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>nP Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)+ Message-ID: <3D0666D0.3E8206D@videotron.ca>-   "Main, Kerry" wrote:G > topics for almost all med-large corp's today is IT Consolidation - oni > all platforms.A > - lower overall costs. A few big systems properly config'ed can>B > typically be maintained by less staff (number 1 IT cost for most
 > companies).h    M The companies that chose to go Microsoft all-the-way did so partly because oflH ease of finding staff with experience in windows. Consolidation would goR against that philosophy if it means having to find specialized, experienced staff.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:58:57 -0500k& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>P Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)8 Message-ID: <83pcguopehhq2f4oe3f9ijr4dn1gbqt405@4ax.com>  + On 7 Jun 2002 22:39:20 GMT, "Zane H. Healy"a# <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote:y  / >JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:i
 >> re: SSH >oO >> Ok, just a sanity check here. Is unencrypted telnet really that dangerous inh >> terms of risk ? >iK >A few years ago I was playing around with some network monitoring softwareeM >(publically available software for Linux) on my home network.  I was rather oN >shocked to find that I could basically point it at one packet, and from then O >on I could see anything that was typed/displayed in a specific Telnet session.I > H >So, yes, it really is that dangerous.  Unfortunatly a lot of people are< >still forced to use Telnet.  IIRC, another problem is POP3. >h >			Zane  F Sure, but rather than have the CPU on each end process the encryption,C I thought IP/SEC was a better solution.  Offload all that work onto 4 something small, simple, and almost management-free.  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq - (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:26:04 -0700h0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>P Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading), Message-ID: <3D06087B.56649FC2@Mvb.Saic.Com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > 6 > In article <10JUN02.22152804@kort.waisman.wisc.edu>,7 >  karcher@kort.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) writes:aN > |> In a previous article, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote: > |>M > |> ->Not unless they are using old equipment (hubs rather than switches) or-L > |> ->have deliberately engineered the lack of security into their network. > |> -> ...u > |>J > |> Having a switched network doesn't mean traffic can't be sniffed. It's > |> just not as easy: > |>L > |> See: <http://www.sans.org/newlook/resources/IDFAQ/switched_network.htm> > 4 > Two people pointed me at this webpage.  I read it. > G > First, his imporoper use of the jargon of the networking biz makes meeG > doubt it has any value whatsoever beyond the usual InfoBiz trade rag.   F Then you would be missing some good information since everything givenA in the article is accurate enough given that it was written usinge; relatively non-technical terms so that more than networking-" professionals could understand it.   > 
 > Example: > 9 > >>          Step 1: Node A transmits a frame to Node C.rL > >>          Step 2: The hub will broadcast this frame to each active port. > I > Actually, the hub will "re-transmit" the frame.  "Broadcast" has a verya+ > specific meaning in the networking world.n  G "Broadcast" has multiple meanings in the networking world, depending oneC context.  For a non-technical article, this is perfectly acceptablerE usage.  It conveys the idea that every device connected to the hub is.; going to see the packet which is exactly what was intended.I   > F > And, as for dsniff, it is more a package of hacker tools that happenG > to include a run-of-the-mill sniffer by the same name.  No where does.I > it explain where this program gets the majik power to change the designD > of the switch hardware.0  E Nowhere does the article claim that it will "change the design of theiG switch hardware".  The article merely claims that the software can foolaE the switch into doing something that might not be expected.  This the  software will defintely do./   > > > The only mention we get of sniffing in switched networks is: > F > >>        As you can see, a switched network does not lend itself to8 > >>        sniffing as easily as a non-switched network > 3 > Now there's an understatement if I ever saw one!!e  @ Not much of one.  The only difference between sniffing a hub andC sniffing a switch is that Joe Blow who knows nothing about networks.6 can't sniff switched traffic.  Almost anyone else can.   > 9 > >>        does since it does not broadcast most frames.- > B > And there's the "broadcast" word again!!  Hubs don't "broadcast" > non-broadcast frames either.   Already addressed.   > E > Of course, at this point we wander off to talking about "spoofing",>H > "flooding" and "duplicating" all of which are something very differentE > from sniffing.  Of course, all three of them require the ability tosD > sniff and being as he doesn't explain how that is going to be done? > in a switched network, well, you can see where this is going.s  G Yes, we can see that your knowledge of networking is not as complete asuF you think it is.  "Spoofing", "flooding", and "duplicating" can all beE used to fool a switch into emitting packets out a given port it would.G not otherwise do.  This leads to easily sniffing.  Sniffing in advance,o? beyond what is already sent out every port of a switch, is moste definitely not necessary.e  D Since this is not message on "how to hack" I won't specify any otherH details except to say that the article is accurate in its assesment thatD these methods will, indeed, compromise the presumed security of most7 switches (and not just the $10 switches used in homes).    > D > He is correct that security was not the original planned intention@ > in switched networks, but it is a very desirable and virtually' > impossible to circumvent side effect.d  D Flat out wrong.  "Security" in a switch is easy to circumvent in any? switch that does not have add-on features that directly address  security-type issues.e   > C > When the host on Port-1 talks to the host on Port-2 their trafficlA > goes back and forth between Port-1 and Port-2. There is nothingrC > that a program running on the host on Port-7 can do to modify thet( > hardware of the switch to change that.  H Correct.  But, since we are talking about the host on Port-7 viewing theA traffic between Port-1 and Port-2, which is doable, modifying thes hardware is not necessary.   > The only possibility wouldB > be to sniff broadcast traffic, learn the MAC address of the hostF > you want to attack, change your MAC address to his and try to hijackB > his session.  On all managed switches (we are talking about realB > work environments here, and not your $10 home network, I assume)E > you can (and should) turn on the security feature which would causebD > that users port to go dead as soon as the change in MAC address is > detected.   B Again, not true.  I assure you, on most switches I can see unicastE traffic not destined for me without ever changing my own MAC address.e   > G > The days of sniffing a rapidly dwindling.  In any properly engineeredu% > business network it is a non-issue.g  B Horribly, terribly, completely wrong!!!  I am *in* the business ofH addressing these issues and you've made some assumptions that simply are	 not true.e  ! >  After all, we're just a school.E > and we have pretty much eliminated it here.  The only place I still2E > run hubs are for small interconnects in physically secure locationsoD > (like may server room hidden backbone.)  And as they age, they areG > also being replaced with switches.  Surely a business concerned about B > security would be more willing to spend the extra money for this > security??  D I guarantee you, if it was my desire to sniff around in your school,( your switches wouldn't stop me one iota.   >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  
 Mark BerrymanP Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com Chief Network Engineer   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:35:41 -0700t0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>P Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading), Message-ID: <3D060ABD.439151D3@Mvb.Saic.Com>   Nic Clews wrote: > ! > david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:| > >i9 > > In article <3D011B79.6516718B@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei-* > > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > > >re: SSH > > >nQ > > >Ok, just a sanity check here. Is unencrypted telnet really that dangerous in6 > > >terms of risk ? > > >e > > Yes.P > > VMS is a very secure operating system. However a system is only as secure asI > > its weakest link. Telnet passes usernames and passwords in the clear.  >   G Unencrypted Telnet is extremely insecure.  Everything done using telnet G is visible to anyone who wants to see it, including strangely-echoed ora non-echoed characters.  D > And shout that LOUD and CLEAR for those ditching DECNet and LAT as > protocols.  H LAT is no more secure than telnet.  It has all the same limitations from a security point of view.s  H DECnet, on the other hand, is more secure than any in-the-clear IP basedE protocol as long as the hosts engaging in DECnet communications trust0? each other.  The reason behind this is straightforward:  DECnet-H identifies both the host and the user in a connection, IP protocols only identify the host.  H Spoofing a DECnet session is also harder to do than an IP session but itH is not impossible, especially if the two hosts are both on the same LAN.   > C > Your security policies mean nothing. "Oh, lets insist they have a B > numeric and a non alpha numeric in the password". Makes spotting > passwords easier.c  C Much easier.  Having "stringent" requirements for passwords causes:s  6 1) people to write them down significantly more often,G 2) "over-the-shoulder" password snooping becomes much easier since, forn many,eB     typing this strange mix of characters slows down their typing.H 3) people will ask to be reminded of what the password is more often and5    overhearing the password then becomes more common.J  8 These are just examples, there are other issues as well.   >. [remainder deleted]n  e > --* > Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences > nclews at csc dot com4  
 Mark Berryman  Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:50:58 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> P Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading), Message-ID: <3D0670BF.EA4EE9CA@videotron.ca>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:I > That was my question.  Are DECNET and LAT encrypted??  How are they anyi > less sniffable than TCPIP??   J LAT is non routable, so you really must be in the same ethernet segment toL sniff its packets. Also, if there is lots of activity in the decserver, thenL each packet will contain keystrokes from many terminals (which is what makes  LAT more efficient than TELNET).  M Doesn't prevent sniffing, but it does require knowledge of how LAT works onceIF you've acquired the packets. Now, if the user is using a PC with a LATM terminal emulator, then it is likely that the LAT packets will contain only a  single user's keystrokes.t  K I am no so concerned about security inside the company. I am more concernedsN about security of TELNET once the packet leaves your company and hops onto theC Internet. What are the odds of some hacker sniffing those packets ?r  N Analogy: a company has no problems allowing staff in the mailroom to stuff theM customer statements and close the envelopes. They can see the contents of thedL statements as they pass through the machines, and probably inspect a few nowD and then for quality control. Yet, banks consider those to be highly> confidential documents meant to be seen only by the recipient.  N So, if I telnet out of the company to some system, what are the odds of having5 my packets sniffed while in transit on the internet ?p  I I know it *can* be done. But if you deal with telcos as ISPs, don't their J employees have some sort of non-disclosure agreement where, just like yourL mailroom employees, they have access to a gazillion conversations, will hear. some for quality control, but won't "listen" ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:18:51 GMTtL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")P Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)8 Message-ID: <00A0F4E3.C17D8508@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  \ In article <3D0670BF.EA4EE9CA@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >Bill Gunshannon wrote:vJ >> That was my question.  Are DECNET and LAT encrypted??  How are they any >> less sniffable than TCPIP?? >>K >LAT is non routable, so you really must be in the same ethernet segment touM >sniff its packets. Also, if there is lots of activity in the decserver, thentM >each packet will contain keystrokes from many terminals (which is what makes ! >LAT more efficient than TELNET).- >-N >Doesn't prevent sniffing, but it does require knowledge of how LAT works onceG >you've acquired the packets. Now, if the user is using a PC with a LAT-N >terminal emulator, then it is likely that the LAT packets will contain only a >single user's keystrokes. >tL >I am no so concerned about security inside the company. I am more concernedO >about security of TELNET once the packet leaves your company and hops onto theeD >Internet. What are the odds of some hacker sniffing those packets ? >kO >Analogy: a company has no problems allowing staff in the mailroom to stuff theeN >customer statements and close the envelopes. They can see the contents of theM >statements as they pass through the machines, and probably inspect a few nowoE >and then for quality control. Yet, banks consider those to be highly ? >confidential documents meant to be seen only by the recipient.F >AO >So, if I telnet out of the company to some system, what are the odds of havingt6 >my packets sniffed while in transit on the internet ? > J >I know it *can* be done. But if you deal with telcos as ISPs, don't theirK >employees have some sort of non-disclosure agreement where, just like your M >mailroom employees, they have access to a gazillion conversations, will hearh/ >some for quality control, but won't "listen" ?E  ' Verisign to Help Telecoms With Wiretapst; http://digitalmass.boston.com/news/2002/06/03/verisign.htmlA    : Check out this URL.  Summary: Verisign owns Illuminet, theN largest independent carrier-to-carrier switching network in the United States.M The network routes land-line and wireless calls and enables carriers to offerR& caller ID, roaming and other services.  J So a lot of traffic goes through Verisign's network.  They are rejiggeringN their switches so they can easily tap the traffic, and are proposing to do so,K commercially, as an outsource provider for telcos who are obligated to makei2 their circuits FBI-tappable by recent legislation.  M (My comment: Given the screwed-up way they operate a domain registry, I'm nots> at all sanguine about the security of their easy-tap network.)   -- Alank  s    O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056iM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210fO ===============================================================================D   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:54:22 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>DP Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading), Message-ID: <3D068DA3.759007C8@videotron.ca>   Mark Berryman wrote:F > I guarantee you, if it was my desire to sniff around in your school,* > your switches wouldn't stop me one iota.  L Could you do this from outside the premises of the school, or would you haveJ to one premises with physical access to an ethernet cable connected to the switch you want to hack ?.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:36:21 -0700s0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com>P Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading), Message-ID: <3D065135.5D822254@Mvb.Saic.Com>   JF Mezei wrote:o >  > Mark Berryman wrote:H > > I guarantee you, if it was my desire to sniff around in your school,, > > your switches wouldn't stop me one iota. > N > Could you do this from outside the premises of the school, or would you haveL > to one premises with physical access to an ethernet cable connected to the > switch you want to hack ?0  H On a switch within the network in question since the claim being refutedH was that switches provided all the necessary security to prevent devices? on one port from seeing traffic between devices on other ports.e  G If you choose to put multiple VLANs on a single switch and allow one orwF more of those VLANs to be used outside of firewall protection, then it@ is sometimes possible to compromise the switch remotely as well.  
 Mark Berrymant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:30:12 +0200e) From: "Steven Thompson" <steven@omga.biz>e Subject: Process LocksB Message-ID: <ae5mhc$hce$1@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>   Hi group  K I suspect that a new problem that has started on my Alpha Cluster is due toeC a lock between 2 (or more) competeing processes. It's a classic VMS H environment, programmes written in VMS/Basic using RMS indexed files for data storage  F So, for now I would appreciate some help on using ANALYZE /SYSTEM (Who
 wouldn't?)  / So I know how to do a SHOW PROCESS /LOCK /BRIEF   A but there are HUNDREDs of locks in each of the suspect processes.0D Is this the right approach? If so how do I get round the size of the problem?   Thanks   Steven   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 19:25:51 -0700# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley)  Subject: Re: Process Locks= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0206111825.3a6062bf@posting.google.com>u  s "Steven Thompson" <steven@omga.biz> wrote in message news:<ae5mhc$hce$1@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>...N
 > Hi group > M > I suspect that a new problem that has started on my Alpha Cluster is due toyE > a lock between 2 (or more) competeing processes. It's a classic VMS>J > environment, programmes written in VMS/Basic using RMS indexed files for > data storage > H > So, for now I would appreciate some help on using ANALYZE /SYSTEM (Who > wouldn't?) > 1 > So I know how to do a SHOW PROCESS /LOCK /BRIEFi > C > but there are HUNDREDs of locks in each of the suspect processes.kF > Is this the right approach? If so how do I get round the size of the
 > problem? >  > Thanks  2 The "correct" way to do this is to install DECamds (or whatever it is called now)4 also there are a couple of decus/freeware utilities:  J Findlock, see http://www.decus.org/libcatalog/description_html/v00484.html2 I don't know if it was ever ported to alpha thoughH (but as you have a basic compiler, now is your chance for enduring fame)  K Blocking, see http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?BLOCKINGi   Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:58:14 +0100n From: EdL <edl@euronet.nl>, Subject: PWS500au PowerStorm 3D30 DECWindows+ Message-ID: <B92C3106.1432E%edl@euronet.nl>i   Hi,   B I have the following configuration a PWS500au with PowerStorm 3D30 card and a 14" digital monitor.e  F Now having troubles with DECWindows, the screens are corrupt and green lines appears over the text.  A In OPA0: console mode (without DECWindows) I cannot use edit/edt. E The screen updates verys slow and line for line. And I cannot use thej1 keypad. Trying to set term/vt100 was no solution.d   Please any help is welcome.c   Regards, Edwin l   edl@euronet.nl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:29:22 -0400c* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>0 Subject: RE: PWS500au PowerStorm 3D30 DECWindows- Message-ID: <0033000067643824000002L042*@MHS>e   =0A>Hi,n >nC >I have the following configuration a PWS500au with PowerStorm 3D30t  >card and a 14" digital monitor.  ? Here's a link to an Ask the Wizard article about 3D30 settings.r  ; Without knowing the details of what monitor you're using, I * can't tell you how the 3D30 should be set.  2 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/wiz_2041.html  H >Now having troubles with DECWindows, the screens are corrupt and green=   >lines appears over the text.o  $ What version of VMS are you running? And DECwindows/MOTIF?t6 There *have* been DW-MOTIF ECOs- perhaps you need one.  . Again, there's not enough information to tell.   PRODUCT SHOW HISTORY >dB >In OPA0: console mode (without DECWindows) I cannot use edit/edt.F >The screen updates verys slow and line for line. And I cannot use the2 >keypad. Trying to set term/vt100 was no solution.  F You're not going to get a VMS command-line editor running except on an2 ANSI type terminal device and OPA0:, alas, is not.  D Outside of getting your DECwindows/MOTIF running properly, the other@ option is to hook a VT up to the serial port of the 433 and then% execute a SET CONSOLE SERIAL on OPA0:e   HTH    WWWebb   >i >Please any help is welcome. >  >Regards, Edwino   edl@euronet.nl=S   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:45:00 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 4 Subject: RMS count of records matching alternate key+ Message-ID: <3D06997E.CEDC23B@videotron.ca>c  . With All-in-1, I can have a construct such as:   EMPLOYEE:PROVINCE.%count["QC"]  G This would return the number of records in the "employee" dataset whoseeL province field is "QC". And this seems very fast. (province being defined as* an alternate key in the RMS indexed file).  L Is the only supported way of doing this to do a $FIND followed by sequentialL $GETs until the key no longer matches and count the records in the process ?N or is there some trick where that information could be pulled from a RAB block after a $FIND ?P   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:54:06 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>8 Subject: Re: RMS count of records matching alternate keyC Message-ID: <OYwN8.210407$Oa1.19767233@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message% news:3D06997E.CEDC23B@videotron.ca...i0 > With All-in-1, I can have a construct such as: >   > EMPLOYEE:PROVINCE.%count["QC"] >tI > This would return the number of records in the "employee" dataset whose K > province field is "QC". And this seems very fast. (province being defineda as, > an alternate key in the RMS indexed file). >kC > Is the only supported way of doing this to do a $FIND followed bya
 sequentialL > $GETs until the key no longer matches and count the records in the process ?a  K AFAIK, yes.  Maintaining accurate summary counts of duplicate key values isuD not only expensive but (in the absence of an operation log) fragile.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:04:42 GMTy From: danco@pebble.org8 Subject: Re: RMS count of records matching alternate key- Message-ID: <slrnagdbtj.2qa.danco@pebble.org>   ; In article <3D06997E.CEDC23B@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei wrote:o  N > Is the only supported way of doing this to do a $FIND followed by sequentialN > $GETs until the key no longer matches and count the records in the process ?  H I think that's all one can do.  You can also use the RAB$L_ROP RAB$M_LIMH option bit on the sequential $GETs, if appropriate and if at all helpful
 in your case.c    J > or is there some trick where that information could be pulled from a RAB > block after a $FIND ?h   Not that I have ever seen.   - Dan    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2002 00:01 CDTo' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) 8 Subject: Re: RMS count of records matching alternate key- Message-ID: <12JUN200200012787@gerg.tamu.edu>e  1 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes... / }With All-in-1, I can have a construct such as:n }  }EMPLOYEE:PROVINCE.%count["QC"]e } H }This would return the number of records in the "employee" dataset whoseM }province field is "QC". And this seems very fast. (province being defined as + }an alternate key in the RMS indexed file).u } M }Is the only supported way of doing this to do a $FIND followed by sequentialsM }$GETs until the key no longer matches and count the records in the process ?hO }or is there some trick where that information could be pulled from a RAB blocke }after a $FIND ?   From rabdef.h:  _         unsigned int rab$l_dct;         /* duplicates count on key accessed on alternate key */   C I would assume that this has the information you want, but I havn'ta	 tried it.e  A Note that this doesn't appear to be mentioned anywhere in the RMSkB documentation (at least not for V7.2-1) and is not in any examplesA in SYS$EXAMPLES. It is the same location in the data structure astA rab$l_bkt (as a union). I don't know when this was added - it wasl probably quite a while ago.a   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:41:08 -0400c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h8 Subject: Re: RMS count of records matching alternate key, Message-ID: <3D06DEEE.D59377D7@videotron.ca>   Carl Perkins wrote:  > From rabdef.h: > a >         unsigned int rab$l_dct;         /* duplicates count on key accessed on alternate key */s  M Thanks. will definitely look into this. ALL-IN-1 has had this for ages, so itI) must have been there for quite some time.o   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 11:40:26 -0700" From: quick6_98@hotmail.com (Phil)  Subject: SCSI- Fatal Drive Error= Message-ID: <6a82438c.0206111040.65fac3ac@posting.google.com>s  D We are trying to install an Ultra Wide, 9 Gig, Solid State Disk fromF BitMicro into a StorageWorks DS-BA356 cabinet.  The drive is seen fromF the console of a VAX 4106, OpenVMS 7.2, but cannot be Initialized from VMS.  / The error is %INIT-F-MEDOFL, medium is offline.i  8 The error log indicates "Invalid inquiry data received".   Thanks,  Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:24:08 -0400 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>$ Subject: RE: SCSI- Fatal Drive Error- Message-ID: <0033000067625564000002L042*@MHS>r  4 =0AEvery BA356 I've ever seen is wide SCSI (16-bit)./ That's probably why it doesn't like your ULTRA.e   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET-$ Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 2:40 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET  Subject: SCSI- Fatal Drive Error    D We are trying to install an Ultra Wide, 9 Gig, Solid State Disk fromF BitMicro into a StorageWorks DS-BA356 cabinet.  The drive is seen fromF the console of a VAX 4106, OpenVMS 7.2, but cannot be Initialized from VMS.  / The error is %INIT-F-MEDOFL, medium is offline.a  8 The error log indicates "Invalid inquiry data received".   Thanks,t Phil=n   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Jun 2002 21:42:21 -0700- From: mvsjetti@hss.hns.com (Mahesh V S Jetti)tB Subject: Urgent help required( Link command getting struck in vax)= Message-ID: <adb15ffe.0206112042.66cd76a0@posting.google.com>    Hi,uD   My system is having different units. When i am trying to build one unit theB  link command is getting struck. Its giving no response. The exact
 command is  as follows.  -  CM BUILD LINKFILE NOI NOIHAND NOIHAND.OPL "" F  LINK/FULL/NOCROSS/TRACEBACK/MAP=NOI_LST:NOIHAND/EXE=NOI_EXE:NOIHAND  ( NOI$OBJ:NOIHAND, NOI$COM:NOIHAND.OPW/OPT  E  This command is not giving any repsonse.It waits there indefintely.In hadf&  to do ^c to come out of this command.  C  can u give me some pointers as to why linker waits indefinitely at 	 the abovea5  command? or how to proceed in this kind of scenario?a+              Any help is higly appreciated.b  Thanks in advance,o  Maheshy   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:39:00 -0400I- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> F Subject: Re: Urgent help required( Link command getting struck in vax), Message-ID: <3D06DE6E.DFC22A75@videotron.ca>   Mahesh V S Jetti wrote:oF >  LINK/FULL/NOCROSS/TRACEBACK/MAP=NOI_LST:NOIHAND/EXE=NOI_EXE:NOIHAND* > NOI$OBJ:NOIHAND, NOI$COM:NOIHAND.OPW/OPT > F >  This command is not giving any repsonse.It waits there indefintely.   While it runs, what happens if:- 	you press <CTRL-Z> ???e- 	you press <CTRL-T> at one minute intervals ?@  G Two possibilities I see is that LINK may be waiting from input, perhaps:J because one of the files in there has some input coming from a "word" thatM happens to be a logical name defined to point to SYS$INPUT. If when you pressEJ <CTRL-Z> the LINK then proceeds (probably with some errors), that would beH such an indication. Check all names specified for input, as well as your
 options file.a  K If <CTRL-Z> does nothing, then tryiong CTRL-T at one minute intervals wouldtL reveal if the CPU and IO numbers change. If they do not change it means thatG LINK is waiting for input somewhere, but if they change, it means it isk huffing and puffing.  H If LINK is huffing and puffing, you might want to let it run for a whileN (again, CTRL-T at regular intervals to see what it is doing. CPU-only activity! with no IO is not a good sign :-)i   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:17:49 -0500T& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>" Subject: Re: VMS Monitoring a User8 Message-ID: <h7qcgu4u0es7nap5hfv9m02r0rnv840fuf@4ax.com>  B On 8 Jun 2002 07:26:54 -0700, dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) wrote:  V >Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message news:<3D00AB75.CE2EF3D7@aaa.com>...? >> In article <9f100812.0206070001.9ffd7ac@posting.google.com>,o, >>    spammitplease@yahoo.co.in (Ab) writes: >> e# >> >We want to monitor that user...  >> e4 >> So, you *do* know who this (privileged) user is ?- >> If that's the case, what's the problem ???t >> t> >> Or am I reading to much into (part of) the sentence above ? >>   >It's not Bob is it?   What about Bob? 1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaqt- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:24:06 -0500 & From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>" Subject: Re: VMS Monitoring a User8 Message-ID: <abqcgukn31f5uvig0a69thqns7flh4ff33@4ax.com>  D On 10 Jun 2002 22:21:59 -0700, spammitplease@yahoo.co.in (Ab) wrote:   >Thanks to all who responded..."E >   I didnt try monitoring this user yet... want to be a bit cautiousaD >on that. Problem here is that we know who the fellow is but cant doG >anything unless we have a proof against him, this organisation is likerE >that even the highest authority cant do anything. And the machine isi' >an operational system ....no downtime.s > Thanks again > Ab >a  A Well, to start with, you need good security policies, and enforce' them.r  C For example, privileged accounts are not to be used except for realfE system admin functions that require privileges.  Admins should have ar@ non-priv'd account from which to do normal work (vmsmail, etc.).  C This seems a bit of a pain for those who are not used to it, but itoD shouldn't be difficult for your privileged users to adhere to - they1 are supposed to be technically capable after all.=  D Each priv'd user should have their own priv'd account also.  This isE good admin practice and allows you to "audit" specific admin activityI back to the originator.o  F Then there are the AUDIT messages that you can enable on the system toC log security entries for specific uses of privileges (or failures).=  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq=- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)u   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:10:30 -0400a( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>E Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases7, Message-ID: <3D066746.7060003@tsoft-inc.com>   Patrick Young wrote:  a > "Tony Scandora" <Scandora@cmt.anl.gov> wrote in message news:<ae32id$vp8$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov>...o > L >>Right.  The ancient, scorned DECshell product for VAX had the only VMS tarI >>that ever worked reliably for me.  Of course, it was VAX only and never K >>heard of ODS-5.  Other than DECshell's tar.exe, which runs just fine as a2K >>DCL foreign command without the rest of the DECshell environment, I foundVJ >>the simplest and most reliable way to unpack tarballs on VMS is to go toN >>UNIX, unpack there, zip up with Info-ZIP on UNIX, and unzip with Info-ZIP on >>VMS. >> >  > OK, I'm pissed off.i > K > What is it with VMSTAR that is the problem - TELL ME NOW SO I CAN FIX IT!  > = > *Bitching* without reading the documentation does not help.  >   9 Way to go!  My kind of attitude.  Less talk, more action.r   Dave   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.323 ************************tion since the claim being refutedH was that switches provided all the necessary security to prevent devices? on one port from seeing traffic between devices on other ports.e  G If you choose to put multiple VLANs on a single switch and allow one orwF more of those VLANs to be used outside of firewall protection, then it@ is sometimes possible @    A    B    C    D    E    F    G    H    I    J    K    L    M    N    O    P    Q    R    S    T    U    V    W    X    Y    Z    [    \    ]    ^    _    `    a    b    c    d    e    f    g    h    i    j    k    l    m    n    o    p    q    r    s    t    u    v    w    x    y    z    {    |    }    ~                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             	    
            
                                                                                 !    "    #    $    %    &    '    (    )    *    +    ,    -    .    /    0    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    :    ;    <    =    >    ?    @    A    B    C    D    E    F    G    H    I    J    K    L    M    N    O    P    Q    R    S    T    U    V    W    X    Y    Z    [    \    ]    ^    _    `    a    b    c    d    e    f    g    h    i    j    k    l    m    n    o    p    q    r    s    t    u    v    w    x    y    z    {    |    }    ~                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        