1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 12 Jun 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 324       Contents: Re: 7.3 Upgrade  Re: 7.3 Upgrade  Re: 7.3 Upgrade  Re: 7.3 Upgrade 0 Re: ? VMS 7.3.1 release date and a SAN question.& Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue?* AlphaServer 255 - Firmware upgrade Misfire. RE: AlphaServer 255 - Firmware upgrade Misfire. Re: AlphaServer 255 - Firmware upgrade Misfire. Re: AlphaServer 255 - Firmware upgrade Misfire Best Hosting Package - 13311# Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # RE: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday  Re: Could linux become VMS? ! Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File ! Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File ! Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File ! Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: ECO Patches  Re: Fibre Disk vs. SCSI Disk Re: hobbyist (mini)merge9 Re: How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ? 9 Re: How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ? 9 Re: How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?  how to renew a vmasmail ?  Re: how to renew a vmasmail ?  HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans" Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans" Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans* Re: Job Opening: Chief Competitive Officer* Re: Job Opening: Chief Competitive Officer' Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL + Re: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL + Re: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL + RE: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL + Re: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL 0 Re: Mounting shadowset system disks across a SAN Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales) Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector ) Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector ) Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: OpenVMS Mailing Lists? Re: OpenVMS Mailing Lists?G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)  Re: Process Locks  Re: Process Locks  Quorum disk hang Re: Quorum disk hang Re: Quorum disk hang4 Request for path balancing (Was: Re: Carly was here)/ Re: RMS count of records matching alternate key / Re: RMS count of records matching alternate key / Re: RMS count of records matching alternate key  rooted devices and /TRANS=CONC Re: SCSI- Fatal Drive Error - Sun is on the way out!  Only HP and IBM left! 1 Re: Sun is on the way out!  Only HP and IBM left!  Re: SYSMAN default parameters ' Re: SYSMAN default parameters - REVISED = Re: Urgent help required( Link command getting struck in vax) $ What process is using this pagefile?( Re: What process is using this pagefile?( Re: What process is using this pagefile?( Re: What process is using this pagefile?< Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:11:51 GMT $ From: "labadie" <labadie_g@decus.fr> Subject: Re: 7.3 Upgrade1 Message-ID: <X%FN8.6$w85.255106@news.cpqcorp.net>   ? "Lucas, Edward A (SAIC)" <Edward.Lucas@bp.com> wrote in message 9 news:EF1DC894691AD5118AF000508BB85FDE034CC679@AMCLVX11...  > Hello everyone > J > I am getting ready to upgrade a VAX from 7.1 to 7.2 and once I am done I3 > need to upgrade an Alpha cluster from 7.1 to 7.3.  > ! > Is anyone aware of any issues ?   J Yes, Xfc must be disabled, use Vioc , so put vcc_flags =1 in modparams.dat: and run autogen, as while waiting for the patch xfc-v0200, that is mandatory.   Regards    Grard   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 05:40:25 -0700# From: pmartyn@csc.com (Phil Martyn)  Subject: Re: 7.3 Upgrade= Message-ID: <23088ca1.0206120440.3b6e7fa5@posting.google.com>   { "Lucas, Edward A (SAIC)" <Edward.Lucas@bp.com> wrote in message news:<EF1DC894691AD5118AF000508BB85FDE034CC679@AMCLVX11>...  > Hello everyone > J > I am getting ready to upgrade a VAX from 7.1 to 7.2 and once I am done I3 > need to upgrade an Alpha cluster from 7.1 to 7.3.  > ! > Is anyone aware of any issues ?  >  > Thank you in advance.  >  >  > Edward A. Lucas " > Sr. VAX/VMS System Administrator > SAIC > Phone:  (216) 525-7492 > Email:   Lucaea@bp.com  D Obvious stuff really. Which I missed when doing a 7.2 to 7.3 upgradeF (fortunately on test,)is the cover letter for 7.3 concerning errors in4 remedial kits and changes you need to do to the fileC SYS$UPDATE:VMS$REMEDIAL_OLD_FILES.TXT. Also watch out if you've got D FORTRAN installed - there's a kit for the Fortran run time librariesC which must be applied prior to the upgrade - this can screw up your A upgrade right in the middle. Well they were the problems I had...    ------------------------------   Date: 12 JUN 2002 14:45:24 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) Subject: Re: 7.3 Upgrade6 Message-ID: <12JUN02.14452430@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  ; In a previous article, pmartyn@csc.com (Phil Martyn) wrote:   F ->Obvious stuff really. Which I missed when doing a 7.2 to 7.3 upgradeH ->(fortunately on test,)is the cover letter for 7.3 concerning errors in6 ->remedial kits and changes you need to do to the fileE ->SYS$UPDATE:VMS$REMEDIAL_OLD_FILES.TXT. Also watch out if you've got F ->FORTRAN installed - there's a kit for the Fortran run time librariesE ->which must be applied prior to the upgrade - this can screw up your C ->upgrade right in the middle. Well they were the problems I had...   5 Could you be more specific about the Fortran RTL kit?    --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison ; --                      karcher.dontspam@waisman.wisc.edu      ------------------------------   Date: 12 JUN 2002 17:44:18 GMT+ From: Dave Greenwood <greenwoodde@ornl.gov>  Subject: Re: 7.3 Upgrade2 Message-ID: <12JUN02.17441816@feda01.fed.ornl.gov>  L In a previous article, karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) wrote:= > In a previous article, pmartyn@csc.com (Phil Martyn) wrote:  >   H > ->Obvious stuff really. Which I missed when doing a 7.2 to 7.3 upgradeJ > ->(fortunately on test,)is the cover letter for 7.3 concerning errors in8 > ->remedial kits and changes you need to do to the fileG > ->SYS$UPDATE:VMS$REMEDIAL_OLD_FILES.TXT. Also watch out if you've got H > ->FORTRAN installed - there's a kit for the Fortran run time librariesG > ->which must be applied prior to the upgrade - this can screw up your E > ->upgrade right in the middle. Well they were the problems I had...  >   7 > Could you be more specific about the Fortran RTL kit?   % See http://ftp.support.compaq.com.au/   ; Note that there is a similar issue with the Cobol RTL also.    Dave --------------9 Dave Greenwood                Email: Greenwoodde@ORNL.GOV H Oak Ridge National Lab        %STD-W-DISCLAIMER, I only speak for myself   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 08:57:15 -0700+ From: seanobanion@attbi.com (Sean O'Banion) 9 Subject: Re: ? VMS 7.3.1 release date and a SAN question. = Message-ID: <f883d5a4.0206120757.4589a2c8@posting.google.com>    Hoff,   > When would you expect the 7.3-1 Release Notes and New FeaturesC documents to be avialable, and where would we be able to find them?     
 Sean O'Banion   d hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote in message news:<ae34h4$7iu$4@web1.cup.hp.com>...^ > In article <1023352245.923506@ftp.adept.co.za>, "Zoldric Caff" <zoldric@hotmail.com> writes:4 > :Does anyone know when VMS 7.3.1 will be released. > G >   OpenVMS V7.3-1 is expected to ship from Engineering within a month  H >   or so, and should arrive at most contract customer sites circa July D >   or August 2002, assuming that the usual media and documentation C >   replication and product shipping schedules hold to their norms.  > 0 > :Will a field test version be made available ? >  >   You missed it, sorry.  > 8 > :At present, I am doing some research on SANS and VMS.G > :Does anyone know where I can find more informaction on this subject.  > I >   The OpenVMS Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) document is probably as  H >   reasonable a starting point as any other.  The OpenVMS FAQ contains K >   the section "Where can I get Fibre Channel Storage (SAN) information?". G >   The FAQ also has a pointer to the OpenVMS roadmaps, documents which E >   provide expected release schedules and release contents and such.  > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------P >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    P >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------N >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:44:04 +0100 U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> / Subject: Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue? 0 Message-ID: <ae75l4$7hp$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:   > In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D9154@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes: >  >>David, >> >>G >>>>>Of course, the problem there is WhineBloze's nasty little habit of  >>>>> I >>assuming it can write a "harmless" signature to (i.e., trash the zeroth C >>block of) every disk it sees, unless this is finally corrected by 
 >>then.<<< >>I >>As Rob mentioned, in a SAN you can disable an OS from seeing devices on B >>other OS's by either using zoning or something called "selectiveG >>presentation" (enable specific devices for access by only servers you 
 >>designate).  >>G >>While there are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches, both 4 >>ensure that the concern you raise does not happen.  E > 	In Compaq's case, they don't have the large port count - 4 in fact @ > 	on HSV (fibre ports from storage box to switch, for instance D > 	Hitachi in their Lightning series has 32 fibre ports, IIRC.  EMC C > 	in the 8430 has up to 16 fibre ports, not sure how many ports on 4 > 	the 8730 but wouldn't be surprised if it was 32). >     5 The 8830 supports 96 (you may not need this number to . run out of throughput through the box though).   Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:00:55 -0400 ' From: "Zeni Schleter" <zzb@y12.doe.gov> 3 Subject: AlphaServer 255 - Firmware upgrade Misfire , Message-ID: <ae7k6k$uei$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>  K I tried to do a firmware upgrade v5.4 on an AlphaServer 255.  The menu that L I was given did not appear as I thought it should but I thought that was theK difference between the 255 and the 2100 that I had done.  I updated the SRM I .  I was expecting several other items but that didn't happen.  I updated H the ARC .  There were also some other items that I could have chosen butD didn't.  I powered off and on.  Now, I am getting a screen saying noI Operating system selections found.  And when I step through several other D screens I find that the Operating information it is defaulting to is$ WindowsNT.  This is not what I want.  C The original system disk is OpenVMS 6.2.  I am trying to replace my K AlphaStation OpenVMS 7.2-1 with this 255.  When I tried to boot the OpenVMS K 7.2-1 system , I got the message about upgrading the firmware.  That is why  I am where I am.  G I looked at the release notes after the fact.  I still don't see in the K notes what I saw on the screen.  I have a call out to the original owner to  get the manual.   L I am posting this just to get confirmation that I can get the system back to the OpenVMS variety.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:30:54 -0400 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>7 Subject: RE: AlphaServer 255 - Firmware upgrade Misfire - Message-ID: <0033000067737561000002L012*@MHS>    =0ATo twist a phrase:   ( You can't have your ARC and SRM it, too.  ! Use the FAQ, my son, use the FAQ: 1 (see eisner.decus.org/VMS/vmsfaq_015.htm#alpha14)   < ------------------------------------------------------------@ 14.11 How do I reload SRM firmware on a half-flash Alpha system?  H Some of the AlphaStation series systems are "half-flash" boxes, meaning=	  only one H set of firmware (SRM or AlphaBIOS) can be loaded in flash at a time. Ge= tting H back to the SRM firmware when AlphaBIOS (or ARC) is loaded can be a lit= tle  interesting...  H That said, this usually involves shuffling some files, and then getting=	  into the H AlphaBIOS firmware update sequence, and then entering "update srm" at t= he apu-> prompt.   H To shuffle the files, copy the target SRM firmware file (as200_v7_0.exe=  is F current) to a blank, initialized, FAT-format floppy under the filename A:\FWUPDATE.EXE   H From the AlphaBIOS Setup screen, select the Upgrade AlphaBIOS option. O= nce the * firmware update utility gets going, enter:            Apu-> update srm   0            Answer "y" to the "Are you ready...?"        Apu-> quit         H You've reloaded the flash. Now powercycle the box to finish the process= .    Also see Section 14.3.   HTH    WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET ' Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:17 AM B To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET3 Subject: AlphaServer 255 - Firmware upgrade Misfire     H I tried to do a firmware upgrade v5.4 on an AlphaServer 255.  The menu = thatH I was given did not appear as I thought it should but I thought that wa= s the H difference between the 255 and the 2100 that I had done.  I updated the=  SRMG   I was expecting several other items but that didn't happen.  I updat=  edH the ARC .  There were also some other items that I could have chosen bu= t D didn't.  I powered off and on.  Now, I am getting a screen saying noH Operating system selections found.  And when I step through several oth= erD screens I find that the Operating information it is defaulting to is$ WindowsNT.  This is not what I want.  C The original system disk is OpenVMS 6.2.  I am trying to replace my H AlphaStation OpenVMS 7.2-1 with this 255.  When I tried to boot the Ope= nVMSH 7.2-1 system , I got the message about upgrading the firmware.  That is=  why I am where I am.  H I looked at the release notes after the fact.  I still don't see in the=  H notes what I saw on the screen.  I have a call out to the original owne= r to get the manual.   H I am posting this just to get confirmation that I can get the system ba= ck to  the OpenVMS variety.=    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:15:20 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk7 Subject: Re: AlphaServer 255 - Firmware upgrade Misfire + Message-ID: <ae7oi8$jc8$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   V In article <ae7k6k$uei$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>, "Zeni Schleter" <zzb@y12.doe.gov> writes:L >I tried to do a firmware upgrade v5.4 on an AlphaServer 255.  The menu thatM >I was given did not appear as I thought it should but I thought that was the L >difference between the 255 and the 2100 that I had done.  I updated the SRMK >..  I was expecting several other items but that didn't happen.  I updated I >the ARC .  There were also some other items that I could have chosen but E >didn't.  I powered off and on.  Now, I am getting a screen saying no J >Operating system selections found.  And when I step through several otherE >screens I find that the Operating information it is defaulting to is % >WindowsNT.  This is not what I want.  > D >The original system disk is OpenVMS 6.2.  I am trying to replace myL >AlphaStation OpenVMS 7.2-1 with this 255.  When I tried to boot the OpenVMSL >7.2-1 system , I got the message about upgrading the firmware.  That is why >I am where I am.r > H >I looked at the release notes after the fact.  I still don't see in theL >notes what I saw on the screen.  I have a call out to the original owner to >get the manual. >eM >I am posting this just to get confirmation that I can get the system back to  >the OpenVMS variety.a > H I think you need to upgrade the formware again and just upgrade the SRM., I believe the 255 maybe a half flash system.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University     ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2002 16:59:42 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)7 Subject: Re: AlphaServer 255 - Firmware upgrade MisfireS* Message-ID: <ae7ulu$dot$3@web1.cup.hp.com>  V In article <ae7k6k$uei$1@sws1.ctd.ornl.gov>, "Zeni Schleter" <zzb@y12.doe.gov> writes:L :I tried to do a firmware upgrade v5.4 on an AlphaServer 255.  The menu thatM :I was given did not appear as I thought it should but I thought that was thee; :difference between the 255 and the 2100 that I had done.     E   When this occurs, please consider stopping.  Please consider asking E   first.  Incorrect applications of device firmware upgrades can lead C   to inoperable hardware.  Please be very cautious about the steps, ;   lest you render the hardware dead.  Yes, this can happen.p  K :                                                         I updated the SRMiA :.  I was expecting several other items but that didn't happen.     G   Again, proceeding -- without a fallback plan -- can potentially lead C!   to hardware that is inoperable.o   :I updated the ARC .    =   ARC is the Windows NT console.  SRM is the OpenVMS console.i  H :There were also some other items that I could have chosen but didn't.  G :I powered off and on.  Now, I am getting a screen saying no Operating A@ :system selections found.  And when I step through several otherE :screens I find that the Operating information it is defaulting to ise% :WindowsNT.  This is not what I want.b  D   You need to follow the sequence to switch from the ARC Windows NT E   console to the SRM console.  Details on this topic are included in LD   the OpenVMS Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) document, and the FAQI   is available at the OpenVMS website (<http://www.openvms.compaq.com/>) t$   and at various sites else-network.  D :The original system disk is OpenVMS 6.2.  I am trying to replace myE :AlphaStation OpenVMS 7.2-1 with this 255.  When I tried to boot the kG :OpenVMS 7.2-1 system , I got the message about upgrading the firmware.k :That is why I am where I am.   A   See below for pointers to the AlphaStation 255 series hardware i   documentation.  H :I looked at the release notes after the fact.  I still don't see in theL :notes what I saw on the screen.  I have a call out to the original owner to :get the manual. :nM :I am posting this just to get confirmation that I can get the system back ton :the OpenVMS variety.l  @   Please read the OpenVMS FAQ section on SRM and ARC, and on the>   half-flash AlphaStation 255 series.  Also please see the old=   postings to this newsgroup, such as the one attached below.p   	--r  D   The OpenVMS Ask The Wizard has various discussions of the firmware@   Failsafe loader, but not specifically for the AlphaStation 255	   series.e  D   If you need to (and you don't need to yet)...  You can invoke the F   failsafe firmware loader on the AlphaStation 255 should the firmwareC   be corrupted.  (Many devices with firmware do NOT have a failsafe-G   loader, hence the above cautions.)  Look at the motherboard with the :G   I/O connectors to the left and the memory to the top, and you'll see eE   a switchpack near the bottom, usually labeled switches 1 to 8 from AH   left to right.  Switching switch 2 on will enable the failsafe loader.F   Normal position is off, of course.  Detailed discussion of using theD   failsafe loader -- once enabled -- are in the various OpenVMS Ask B   The Wizard topics with the word "failsafe" in the subject title.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com     	--     2 From: Hoff Hoffman (hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam)D  Subject: Re: How do you switch an AlphaStation 500 from NT to VMS?   Newsgroups: comp.os.vms  Date: 2002-04-23 14:24:00 PST >  Y In article <3CC05CFC.F4B54D74@boeing.com>, Frank Troth <Frank.E.Troth@boeing.com> writes:a  L   [discussion of unspecified problems switching the AlphaStation 255 consoleL   and the AlphaStation 500 console from ARC over to SRM firmware expurgated]  J   The OpenVMS FAQ has the usual sequence involved -- and goes into detailsM   on the half-flash nature of the AlphaStation 255 series involved here, too.oJ   You may well need to use the AlphaStation 255 series failsafe (firmware)L   loader (FSL) (particularly if your firmware is sufficiently ancient), and I   details of that are in the AlphaStation 255 and AlphaStation 500 series G   documentation -- it usually amounts to creating a firmware floppy or rJ   acquiring a firmware CD-ROM, and temporarily resetting the "FSL" jumper.L   Using the firmware CD-ROM is often the easiest approach, in my experience.  L   The user's guides and various firmware details for various of the retired :   members of the AlphaStation series are available at/via:  G     <http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/workstations/retired/index.html>y     The FAQ is available via  $     <http://www.openvms.compaq.com/>    3   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:18:15 GMTe( From: "Best Solution" <bsolution@tut.by>% Subject: Best Hosting Package - 13311SJ Message-ID: <HKIN8.301666$t8_.300202@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  + This is a multi-part message in MIME formati  $ --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: text/plain+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable    Best Hosting Package (from $5)% http://www.bsolution.net/hosting.htmlF            $ --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf Content-Type: text/htmln+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">; <HTML><HEAD><TITLE>HOSTING @ BSolution UNIX Servers</TITLE><I <META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1251" http-equiv=3DContent=1 -Type>. <META content=3D"INDEX, FOLLOW" name=3DRobots>I   <meta name=3D"description" content=3D"HOSTING - web hosting for profes=p, sionals and beginers with PHP CGI Perl FTP">I   <meta name=3D"keywords" content=3D"asp, asp. net hosting, webhosting, =>I Linux, UNIX, web-hosting, web hosting, active server pages, web applicat=>I ion hosting, hosting providers, hosting services, web hosting companies"=M >A <STYLE type=3Dtext/css>c
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white; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; FONT-SIZ=b1 E: 12px; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; TEXT-DECORATION: nonet }d	 A:hover { I 	COLOR: white; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; FONT-SIZ=76 E: 12px; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; TEXT-DECORATION: underline }t A:link {I 	COLOR: white; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; FONT-SIZ=c1 E: 12px; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; TEXT-DECORATION: nones }i A:visited {sI 	COLOR: white; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; FONT-SIZ=s1 E: 12px; FONT-WEIGHT: bold; TEXT-DECORATION: noner }n </STYLE> </HEAD>? <BODY bgColor=3D#081884>J <TABLE align=3Dcenter border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 width=3D= 770>	   <TBODY>r   <TR>I <TD align=3Dcenter><IMG SRC=3D"http://www.bsolution.net/hosting.files/lo=k go.gif"</TD> </TR></TBODY></TABLE>lB <TABLE align=3Dcenter cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 width=3D770>	   <TBODY>    <TR>+     <TD><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D5a:       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target=3D"sales">Care=  ers</A></TD>I     <TD align=3Dmiddle><A href=3D"http://www.bsolution.net/about.html">A=l% bout Us</A></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> B <TABLE align=3Dcenter cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 width=3D770>	   <TBODY>d   <TR>+     <TD><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D3 :       src=3D"http://www.bsolution.net/hosting.files/e.gif"       width=3D770></TD></TR>   <TR>;     <TD bgColor=3Dwhite><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D1 :       src=3D"http://www.bsolution.net/hosting.files/e.gif",       width=3D770></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>J <TABLE align=3Dcenter border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 width=3D= 770>	   <TBODY>f   <TR><     <TD align=3Dmiddle vAlign=3Dtop width=3D230><BR><BR><BR>I <FONT face=3DArial size=3D2 color=3D#BBFFFF><B><A HREF=3D"http://www.bso=  lution.net/hosting.html"> B 			Hosting Sign Up Form</B></FONT><BR><BR><BR><BR>Sign Up Now!</A>	     </TD>      <TD>I       <TABLE align=3Dcenter bgColor=3D#081884 border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0=g  cellSpacing=3D0       width=3D540>         <TBODY>-         <TR>1           <TD><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D50@             src=3D"http://www.bsolution.net/hosting.files/e.gif""             width=3D540></TD></TR>         <TR>           <TD>;             <DIV align=3Dcenter class=3Dt><B>HOSTING PRICESl           </B></DIV></TD></TR>         <TR>1           <TD><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D5h@             src=3D"http://www.bsolution.net/hosting.files/e.gif"2             width=3D540></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>I       <TABLE align=3Dcenter bgColor=3D#0879d6 border=3D0 cellPadding=3D2=s  cellSpacing=3D1       width=3D540>         <TBODY>I         <TR>,           <TD bgColor=3D#081884 width=3D210>6             <DIV class=3Dt1>Service Package</DIV></TD>;           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884 width=3D110>t+             <DIV class=3Dt1>Base</DIV></TD>i;           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884 width=3D110>./             <DIV class=3Dt1>Business</DIV></TD>S;           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884 width=3D110>-8             <DIV class=3Dt1>Professional</DIV></TD></TR>         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>.             <DIV class=3Dt4>Monthly</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>h)             <DIV class=3Dt3>$8</DIV></TD>e/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>o*             <DIV class=3Dt3>$15</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>-/             <DIV class=3Dt3>$30</DIV></TD></TR>          <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>-             <DIV class=3Dt4>Annual</DIV></TD>f/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>S5             <DIV class=3Dt3>$75 ($6.25/mo)</DIV></TD> /           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>F7             <DIV class=3Dt3>$130 ($10.83/mo)</DIV></TD> /           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>-<             <DIV class=3Dt3>$250 ($20.83/mo)</DIV></TD></TR>         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>0             <DIV class=3Dt4>Setup Fee</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884> )             <DIV class=3Dt3>no</DIV></TD>k/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>o)             <DIV class=3Dt3>no</DIV></TD> /           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>i             <DIV class=3Dt3>$20 '             <DIV></DIV></DIV></TD></TR>          <TR>I           <TD bgColor=3D#081884 colSpan=3D4><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 hei=r ght=3D3i'             src=3D"hosting.files/e.gif"n"             width=3D540></TD></TR>         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>1             <DIV class=3Dt4>Disk Space</DIV></TD>d/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884> ,             <DIV class=3Dt3>30 MB</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>o-             <DIV class=3Dt3>100 MB</DIV></TD>e/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>n2             <DIV class=3Dt3>500 MB</DIV></TD></TR>         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>.             <DIV class=3Dt4>Traffic</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884> 0             <DIV class=3Dt3>unlimited</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>d0             <DIV class=3Dt3>unlimited</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>a5             <DIV class=3Dt3>unlimited</DIV></TD></TR>u         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>A             <DIV class=3Dt4>Support ASP 3.0 / ASP .NET</DIV></TD>t/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>I)             <DIV class=3Dt3>no</DIV></TD>m/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>i)             <DIV class=3Dt3>no</DIV></TD>t/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>n/             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD></TR>r         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>1             <DIV class=3Dt4>PERL (CGI)</DIV></TD>t/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>.*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>o*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>w/             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD></TR>o         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>6             <DIV class=3Dt4>PHP 4.x Support</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>m*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>i*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>m/             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD></TR>v         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>:             <DIV class=3Dt4>MS Access DataBases</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>.)             <DIV class=3Dt3>no</DIV></TD>r/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>I)             <DIV class=3Dt3>no</DIV></TD>h/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>w/             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD></TR>t         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>1             <DIV class=3Dt4>MySQL 2000</DIV></TD>./           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>a*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>a*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>e/             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD></TR>W         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>3             <DIV class=3Dt4>E-mail boxes</DIV></TD>d/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>,)             <DIV class=3Dt3>10</DIV></TD>1/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>e)             <DIV class=3Dt3>50</DIV></TD> /           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>:/             <DIV class=3Dt3>200</DIV></TD></TR>          <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>2             <DIV class=3Dt4>SSI Support</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884> *             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>0*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>w/             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD></TR>          <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>*             <DIV class=3Dt4>FTP</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>3*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>>*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>D/             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD></TR>          <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>A             <DIV class=3Dt4>Statistics and .log access</DIV></TD>./           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884><*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>T*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>//             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD></TR>3         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>2             <DIV class=3Dt4>SSL Support</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>e)             <DIV class=3Dt3>no</DIV></TD>i/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>n*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>o/             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD></TR>r         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>;             <DIV class=3Dt4>Password directories</DIV></TD></           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>n)             <DIV class=3Dt3>no</DIV></TD>Y/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>h*             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>T?             <DIV class=3Dt3>yes</DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>hI       <TABLE align=3Dcenter bgColor=3D#081884 border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0=i  cellSpacing=3D0       width=3D540>         <TBODY>n         <TR>1           <TD><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D5 '             src=3D"hosting.files/e.gif"v"             width=3D540></TD></TR>         <TR>           <TD>:             <DIV align=3Dcenter class=3Dt><B>E-MAIL PRICES              </B></DIV></TD></TR>         <TR>1           <TD><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D5 '             src=3D"hosting.files/e.gif"=2             width=3D540></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>I       <TABLE align=3Dcenter bgColor=3D#0879d6 border=3D0 cellPadding=3D2=G  cellSpacing=3D1       width=3D"100%">          <TBODY>/         <TR>,           <TD bgColor=3D#081884 width=3D370>7             <DIV class=3Dt4>E-Mail Setup Fee</DIV></TD> ;           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884 width=3D170>/?             <DIV align=3Dcenter class=3Dt3>free</DIV></TD></TR>d         <TR>,           <TD bgColor=3D#081884 width=3D370>6             <DIV class=3Dt4>Monthly payment</DIV></TD>;           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884 width=3D170>0I             <DIV align=3Dcenter class=3Dt3>no</DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></T=  ABLE>TI       <TABLE align=3Dcenter bgColor=3D#081884 border=3D0 cellPadding=3D0=   cellSpacing=3D0       width=3D540>         <TBODY>          <TR>1           <TD><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D5 '             src=3D"hosting.files/e.gif" "             width=3D540></TD></TR>         <TR>           <TD>I             <DIV align=3Dcenter class=3Dt><B>OTHER SERVICES</B></DIV></T=3 D></TR>w         <TR>1           <TD><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D5<'             src=3D"hosting.files/e.gif"=2             width=3D540></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>I       <TABLE align=3Dcenter bgColor=3D#0879d6 border=3D0 cellPadding=3D2=c  cellSpacing=3D1       width=3D"100%">l         <TBODY>l         <TR>,           <TD bgColor=3D#081884 width=3D370>I             <DIV class=3Dt4>Domain name registration (.com, .net, .org, =t cc, .info, .biz)</DIV></TD> ;           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884 width=3D170>a>             <DIV align=3Dcenter class=3Dt3>$20</DIV></TD></TR>         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>I             <DIV class=3Dt4>Domain name: YOURNAME.bsolution.net</DIV></T=  D>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884> ?             <DIV align=3Dcenter class=3Dt3>free</DIV></TD></TR>V         <TR>            <TD bgColor=3D#081884>@             <DIV class=3Dt4>On-Line Web Store Support</DIV></TD>/           <TD align=3Dmiddle bgColor=3D#081884>=             <DIV align=3Dcenter I   class=3Dt3>$15/mo</DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></T=r ABLE>8B <TABLE align=3Dcenter cellPadding=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 width=3D770>	   <TBODY>b   <TR>+     <TD><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D5 !       src=3D"hosting.files/e.gif"/       width=3D770></TD></TR>   <TR>;     <TD bgColor=3Dwhite><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D1=!       src=3D"hosting.files/e.gif"l       width=3D770></TD></TR>   <TR>+     <TD><IMG alt=3D"" border=3D0 height=3D2=!       src=3D"hosting.files/e.gif"3,       width=3D770></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> </BODY></HTML>            & --=_NextPart_2rfkindysadvnqw3nerasdf--   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2002 05:49:30 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) , Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-ECIZy9mCdnuN@localhost>   F On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:56:13 UTC, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)  wrote:  a > In article <JriN8.8248$nZ3.1171@rwcrnsc53>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:T > > > > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message* > > news:3D058DBD.F80D02C7@videotron.ca..." > >> re: VMS parts ported to HP-UX > >>G > >> The *smart* thing to do would be to continue to make VMS more Unix  > > compatible4 > >> and then get HP-UX  applications ported to VMS. > > P > > That would be a good thing, too. I thought COE compliance might help in this > > regard.t > P > What really impressed me in Hoff's presentation of the DII-COE stuff last yearP > was that it was Solaris compatible. I had an immediate vision of being able to+ > port all those apps which run on Solaris.  > O > All the more interesting in the light of today's thread on the future of Sun./O > Don't want to deal with Sun any more? There could be an alternative migrationaN > path in the form of DII-COE on VMS, at the very least as a stick to beat Sun$ > over the head in negotiations. :-)   Hm sounds great.  E If Rational were to port their development suite maybe we could stay / on VMS.    Oops beware low flying pigs :-)0   --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2002 05:49:31 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)t, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-YuYdnfn3S9MX@localhost>D  E On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:11:04 UTC, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> D wrote:   > David Mathog wrote:v > >  ......... Terry's snpipedo > > R > > Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ completed the VMS port to Itanium and achievedM > > full DII/COE functionality could they make the resulting operating system N > > the upgrade path for HP-UX?  I'm not entirely joking about this - it mightN > > actually be easier to bolt the unixy pieces on top of VMS than it would beM > > to stuff the key VMS pieces underneath the skin of an existing unix.  And>N > > my experience has been that it's a lot easier to port Unix software to VMS > > than the other way around. > > Q > Not sure if I agree with that. Converting fork() alone to operate as it does in N > Unix is no easy task and symbolic links can be a big ouch. I've done portingP > both ways and found it's usually easiest to do a "functional port" - analyzingN > what each function is trying to accomplish, then rewrite it according to the > target platform's strengths. >   F Having tried both - porting code and porting functionality - I tend toE agree. With the former you all too easily get to the point where you r! can't see the wood for the trees.s   -- t Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:29:22 +0100t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> , Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday8 Message-ID: <015egu4hun4u1s0cg9984f1o2ps04i2a06@4ax.com>  4 On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:48:47 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:v    K >Nor will I because I don't look good as a Smurf. But back to the question:SK >if HP-UX inherited all the good attributes of VMS, would it matter much if0? >VMS found itself subject to the EERP some years down the road?)  E If VMS inherited HP-UX API as part of the C library/kernel work woulda, it matter if HP-UX was killed down the line?   >u >Just wondering. >v   -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:32:08 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>w, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday8 Message-ID: <055egukigkh9mm4gdd7hhans6ncqkgapud@4ax.com>  D On 11 Jun 2002 14:15:41 -0600, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) wrote:  E >	Maybe we could call this new OS , Mica?  For old times sake, maybe?r  C As Cutler is quoted as saying in "Showstopper", "We would have donet5 this project a lot better if it had stayed with DEC."d   > / >                              (Duck and cover)  > ) >                                     Rob    -- Alan   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:07:42 +0000 (UTC)n9 From: Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no>o, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday, Message-ID: <ae76he$lk$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>  . Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:5 : In article <mVwNCYTSw$0C@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 1 : Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:nB :> In article <i_eN8.177$hm1.55@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,- :> "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii5@ACM5.org> writes:OI :>> Does any Unix or anything else have logical names with search lists?   :>> Just wondering.d :> o. :> It certainly sounds easy for them to add... :> :> ...compared to ASTs.n  J It is already done, in a way (in FreeVMS, which is Linux extensions/mods).  I :    TruCluster claimns to have the equivalent of blocking ASTs.  If they G :    can start in that direction, they can keep moving closer.  Much of.E :    the behaviour of ASTs can be done with threads, even though theyy :    are different.M  E It is not such a big problem when Alphas have AST support in the CPU.    --  
 -Roar Thronsu   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 08:15:39 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) , Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday3 Message-ID: <3lJW2moW6fkZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  V In article <3D06978F.4B8B4A60@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:  R > Not exactly what I had in mind. I agree ODS5 and COE bring some crucial parts ofI > Unix into VMS, but even some VMS features could do with a rethink. E.g.nP > privileges are not logical. They seemed to have evolved as needed, so there is  C "More logical" presumes they are orthogonal, which is not the case. B Privilege _levels_ (categories) are worth thinking about, and theyF are the basis on which you should evaluate privileges.  But privilegesF on a level can be used to bootstrap into a different privilege.  ThinkK of privilege levels as providing real control and the individual privilegeshD within a level as providing protection against typographical errors.  O > no uniform architecture to them. Users cannot belong to more than 1 group and:  B In what way do general identifiers fall short of what you see fromA Unix groups ?  Certainly giving concepts the same name as in Unix  is not a real requirement.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:33:32 -0400s' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>u, Subject: RE: Carly was here in ZKO yesterdayT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660773@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Dave,i  H >>> If Rational were to port their development suite maybe we could stay	 on VMS.<<-  H Note - My albeit limited understanding is that Rational's major focus isC now J2EE and java based products. We just did a major RFP (big UNIX-D shop) here in Canada and the Customer stated they wanted Rational as their development suite.  " However, they also clearly stated:= - J2EE/Java was their future architecture (more future vendorp independence was reason given)F - all J2EE/Java application development would be done on cheap Windows based PC's using Rational.: - all production deployment would be on UNIX based servers@ - they had typical dev, test, qa, pre-prod and prod environments defined.  D In other words, in the J2EE/Java world, the development platform canB very easily be different than what is rolled out in production.=20   Regardss  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanth Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Servicese Voice: 613-592-4660p Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----7 From: Dave Weatherall [mailto:djweath@attglobal.net]=20  Sent: June 12, 2002 1:50 AMn To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com , Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday    H On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:56:13 UTC, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)=20 wrote:  C > In article <JriN8.8248$nZ3.1171@rwcrnsc53>, "Terry C. Shannon"=20o" > <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes: > >=20A > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message=20r* > > news:3D058DBD.F80D02C7@videotron.ca..." > >> re: VMS parts ported to HP-UX > >>G > >> The *smart* thing to do would be to continue to make VMS more Unix  > > compatible4 > >> and then get HP-UX  applications ported to VMS. > >=20H > > That would be a good thing, too. I thought COE compliance might help   > > in this regard.o >=20I > What really impressed me in Hoff's presentation of the DII-COE stuff=20cE > last year was that it was Solaris compatible. I had an immediate=20_C > vision of being able to port all those apps which run on Solaris.r >=20J > All the more interesting in the light of today's thread on the future=20D > of Sun. Don't want to deal with Sun any more? There could be an=20J > alternative migration path in the form of DII-COE on VMS, at the very=20A > least as a stick to beat Sun over the head in negotiations. :-)>   Hm sounds great.  G If Rational were to port their development suite maybe we could stay=20r on VMS.d   Oops beware low flying pigs :-)T   --=20T Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:47:59 +0000 2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday4 Message-ID: <20020612134759.D21330@eisenschmidt.org>   --Q0rSlbzrZN6k9QnT* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inlinep+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablen  L I know a lot of people think that Java is a flash in the pan, and maybe it =L is, but cross platform compatability was a consideration in the design, not=L  after the fact. As long as you have a good JVM to run it in (and while it =L has gotten better I admit it still needs to mature a little more), function=L s are built in to handle things like date formats and line separators and d= irectory heirarchys, so that:a   C:\foo   ands   /foo   and=20  
 dsa0:[foo]   and    MacintoshHD:Desktop:foo   L aren't going to hold you up. Far from perfect, but as I said a couple weeks=L  ago I had to rewrite an interface program that was done in COBOL about 8 y=L ears ago by consultants. I can barely read COBOL, and we don't have a C++ c=L ompiler (yes I'm one of those people) so I wrote it in Java on my PC. I ftp=L ed the code to our Alpha, followed the instructions to adjust the RMS recor=L d attributes, and it worked as fast (if not faster) without modifying a sin=L gle line of code. Granted, I give more credit to the OpenVMS Java folks tha=L n Sun on this one, but I'm really happy. Going forward I expect any time I =@ need to throw something together for OpenVMS I'll do it in Java.  F Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Main, Kerry (Kerry.Main@hp.com) Wrote: > Dave,r >=20J > >>> If Rational were to port their development suite maybe we could stay > on VMS.<<3 >=20J > Note - My albeit limited understanding is that Rational's major focus isE > now J2EE and java based products. We just did a major RFP (big UNIXVF > shop) here in Canada and the Customer stated they wanted Rational as > their development suite. >=20$ > However, they also clearly stated:? > - J2EE/Java was their future architecture (more future vendor   > independence was reason given)H > - all J2EE/Java application development would be done on cheap Windows > based PC's using Rational.< > - all production deployment would be on UNIX based serversB > - they had typical dev, test, qa, pre-prod and prod environments
 > defined. >=20F > In other words, in the J2EE/Java world, the development platform canD > very easily be different than what is rolled out in production.=20 >=20	 > Regardse >=20 > Kerry Main > Senior Consultant  > Hewlett-Packard Canada# > Consulting & Integration Servicess > Voice: 613-592-4660/ > Fax   : 613-591-4477 > Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message-----9 > From: Dave Weatherall [mailto:djweath@attglobal.net]=20  > Sent: June 12, 2002 1:50 AMV > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComD. > Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday >=20 >=20J > On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:56:13 UTC, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)=20 > wrote: >=20E > > In article <JriN8.8248$nZ3.1171@rwcrnsc53>, "Terry C. Shannon"=204$ > > <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes: > > >=20C > > > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message=20a, > > > news:3D058DBD.F80D02C7@videotron.ca...$ > > >> re: VMS parts ported to HP-UX > > >>I > > >> The *smart* thing to do would be to continue to make VMS more Unix8 > > > compatible6 > > >> and then get HP-UX  applications ported to VMS. > > >=20J > > > That would be a good thing, too. I thought COE compliance might help >=20 > > > in this regard.b > >=20K > > What really impressed me in Hoff's presentation of the DII-COE stuff=20DG > > last year was that it was Solaris compatible. I had an immediate=20RE > > vision of being able to port all those apps which run on Solaris.r > >=20J > > All the more interesting in the light of today's thread on the future= =20TF > > of Sun. Don't want to deal with Sun any more? There could be an=20J > > alternative migration path in the form of DII-COE on VMS, at the very= =20 C > > least as a stick to beat Sun over the head in negotiations. :-)  >=20 > Hm sounds great. >=20I > If Rational were to port their development suite maybe we could stay=20 	 > on VMS.h >=20! > Oops beware low flying pigs :-)D >=20 > --=20/ > Cheers - Dave.   --=20E/ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>P6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenL  PGP Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.a= scD  PGP Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2  L FOO MANE PADME HUM: "Our first obligation is to keep the FOO counters turni= ng."   --Q0rSlbzrZN6k9QnT' Content-Type: application/pgp-signatureD Content-Disposition: inline    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----n Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (OpenBSD)=* Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org  @ iD8DBQE9B1EOH5fmozfjvvIRAiHqAJ9qNz3Y+331f8rzhv32MIsOFlWXXQCeNFQM BcxXV/ofTYSqQB2Srjicc6I= =A9EN3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----d   --Q0rSlbzrZN6k9QnT--   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 10:02:23 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)h, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday3 Message-ID: <hIuuLGUb1ihq@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3D06978F.4B8B4A60@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > Bob Ceculski wrote:> >>  ^ >> Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<3D0648CA.936EE87F@pacbell.net>... >> > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: >> > > >> >  <snip> >> > >P >> > > Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it withR >> > > ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, reliability,S >> > > enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it really 0 >> > > make any difference if VMS still existed? >> > > >> > > Just wondering. >> >F >> > Terry. What a question for this group! This could lead to another >> > never-ending-thread! U >> > But, I agree in theory. Even more I think it's time for a new OS that would be aVN >> > superset of all Unix & VMS functionality. With such an approach you couldU >> > support both classic Unix & classic VMS environments under the same umbrella and0S >> > begin to build an even better OS environment (shell, symbolic structures, moreTI >> > logical privileges, etc, etc) that folks could gradually migrate to.lB >> > I've mentioned this idea before, but no one seemed to get it. >> BJ >> you already have it!  VMS now w/ODS5 and COE is that meshing of VMS andH >> unix, plus, you have all those great features that make VMS the best!- >> It already exists, why reinvent the wheel?D > R > Not exactly what I had in mind. I agree ODS5 and COE bring some crucial parts ofI > Unix into VMS, but even some VMS features could do with a rethink. E.g.GP > privileges are not logical. They seemed to have evolved as needed, so there isO > no uniform architecture to them. Users cannot belong to more than 1 group anddQ > there is no concept of a true "group administrator". Also, super symbols - manyGK > different levels of symbols from thread specific, to environment specificrN > (beyond the cluster) could do a lot more than symbols and logicals do now. AN > true "Shiva" OS would allow Unix & VMS environments to coexist and allow newO > ones to develop. Unix users shouldn't have to learn DCL and VMS'ers shouldn'ttO > have to know csh, ksh or the like. It would be nice to be able to choose yoursC > development & production environments, maybe depending on a groupp > administrator's parameter.A > There are lots of possibilities once you begin to open the box.  >   > 	Ummm... but unlike POSIX of old (slow performance, etc.) COE : 	will give you ksh.  As Hoff alluded to in another thread   [ http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=zvdh7.692%24bB1.31613%40news.cpqcorp.net&output=gplainf  > : long discussion of the benefits of mount points over volumes  H   We have added mount point support into OpenVMS as part of the DII COE G   work, permitting at least some of the same benefits (and, of course, rB   the same problems) that are available with the UNIX environment.    ---  2 	You will have Unix mount points so I assume that:   		# cd / 		# rm -r *v   	should work.   ;-)     A 	As I had mentioned several times, it really isn't a big deal forfB 	VMS to become a superset of Unix (not negating the work involved,F 	just comparing one paradigm to another and stuffing the Unix paradigm 	into VMS).-  > 	Some of the shells are missing as Tom Kednos points out.  ButF 	once all the supporting infrastructure shows up (a true fork() , long> 	discussed) it should be much easier to port Unix apps to VMS.  7 	This master OS you are describing is Mica.  Mica died.@   				Rob>   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:51:01 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterdayB Message-ID: <VZKN8.144291$4i.13226796@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  3 "Roar Throns" <roart@nvg.ntnu.no> wrote in messager& news:ae76he$lk$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no...0 > Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:   ...h  K > :    TruCluster claimns to have the equivalent of blocking ASTs.  If theyiI > :    can start in that direction, they can keep moving closer.  Much ofnG > :    the behaviour of ASTs can be done with threads, even though they  > :    are different.t > G > It is not such a big problem when Alphas have AST support in the CPU.i  L What hardware support for ASTs does Alpha offer that other hardware doesn't?   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:49:09 GMTc( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday+ Message-ID: <3D0789F4.A037BDD9@pacbell.net>o   Bill Todd wrote: > 7 > "Don Sykes" <annonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in messagee' > news:3D069B6E.8B9EFCAB@pacbell.net...s > > Bill Todd wrote: > > > 
 > > <snip> > > > >-0 > > > > Sorry, now I don't get it. What's Mica ? > > > N > > > The particularly relevant aspect of Mica is that it was intended to be aM > > > single kernel supporting both VMS and Ultrix personalities.  That's not H > > > *exactly* what you were proposing above (and it's not clear that a > singleK > > > common environment that's a proper union of VMS and Unix is possible,n > givenlL > > > inconsistencies such as file versioning), but close enough to make the > > > comment appropriate. > >hL > > It's very possible. Take file versioning for example. The person running > in aN > > Unix environment would only see the most recent version of a file, becauseJ > > that's a provision of that environment. A VMS environment could act on
 > previousL > > versions, because that's a provision of that environment. The underlying > fileG > > system may in fact have other features not shared by either classic4 > environment,G > > like associated meta files... enter a new environment all together.O > K > I'm afraid not.  Once you start creating 'environments', you don't have atK > single homogeneous system any more, even if some data interchange between   P The single homogeneous system would be the one which underlies the environments.  J > environments is possible.  This is something you might understand betterN > after sitting in a room with a bunch of knowledgeable people from both campsJ > trying to work out how to create a common, shared system for both:  it's  5 I have done exactly that at Oracle and other clients.e  N > simply not possible unless both camps are willing to compromise for the good > of the whole.@   I respectfully disagree.   > M > The Mica group weren't dummies.  If a common upward-compatible union rather.J > than multiple personalities had been creatable, they would have done so. > M I'm sure they weren't dummies, but they may have been thinking in the box toolN long. I have seen the brightest people (more knowledgeable than I) fail to see the BIG picture.     --     Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)i
 San Francisco    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:16:28 +0200h' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D0765CC.64162779@spam.not>   Sharon Guthrie wrote:h > O > >> >and what goes in them.  I suspect someone who doesn't know VMS would moan-R > >> >about having to learn AUTOGEN and MODPARAMS.  Once you know your stuff, it's> > >> >pretty easy to configure either a Linux or a VMS system. > >>. > >> I'd agree. VMS can be so obtuse at times, > N >         Once knew an experienced computer guy who bemoaned having to log in.P > Supposedly his background was in IBM mainframes, but I always thought that youM > logged into those also, but what do I know?  He acted alot more like he was N > used to peecees, however this was in the mid-eighties, even before Win95 wasM > available, so that experience couldn't have been too terribly long.  At the F > time, he was in his mid-fifties and had a couple decades of computerE > experience.  It took him *months* before he quit muttering over thev > username/password prompts.Q >         Just goes to show ya...  also remember that often people complain aboutr% > anything they're not familiar with.e  @ Why did nobody set up his terminal with ALF for automatic login?   --  7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:14:27 +0100w, From: "Rainer Giese" <waste.not@welcome.net>* Subject: Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File5 Message-ID: <ae73dk$4cahd$1@ID-138444.news.dfncis.de>-  6 "dooley" <dooleys@snowy.net.au> schrieb im Newsbeitrag7 news:1ca82fc6.0206112119.720cbee0@posting.google.com...n  + > (I don't know how to specify the f17 key)4  G I calls "FUNCTION 31", so DEFINE KEY GOLD FUNCTION 31 "EXT EXIT." wouldt5 result in save and exit by pressing PF1 and then F17.l   Rainer   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 04:09:50 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)d* Subject: Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0206120309.473f18d7@posting.google.com>   m skidmore@alternate-venue.org (Barry Skidmore) wrote in message news:<vVuN8.223$yK6.52134@news1.iquest.net>...rN > I need some help with defining a key sequence in the EDTINI.EDT file for theQ > EDT editor.  I have looked at the "Introduction to EDT" documentation, but needi > some additional help.  > N > I am trying to define the F17 key to press the PF4 key (Commmand:) and enter3 > the command "Exit" followed by a carriage return.  >   $ DEFINE KEY FUNCTION 31 AS "EXTEXIT."  N In EDT a neat feature is that you can find out the mnemonics you need to placeN in the DEFINE KEY command by using CONTROL-K, then typing you key sequence you9 need. The "31" is a bit misleading - you need to see the:@   HELP DEFINE KEY FUNCTION-KEYS-  % command to find out what key is what.t   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 06:46:14 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)* Subject: Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0206120546.238e5fc6@posting.google.com>e  d "Joe H. Gallagher" <dtrwiz@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<3D06B9C7.69BAB27B@ix.netcom.com>... > Barry Skidmore wrote:m > > P > > I need some help with defining a key sequence in the EDTINI.EDT file for theS > > EDT editor.  I have looked at the "Introduction to EDT" documentation, but needu > > some additional help.  > > P > > I am trying to define the F17 key to press the PF4 key (Commmand:) and enter    & PF4 is the DEL L key, not "Command:".   + If you want F17 to be "Command:", try this:   ; DEFINE KEY FUNCTION 31 AS "EXT ?*'Command: '."   ! F17: Do:E  @ This lets you type in a command and press Return to execute it.   6 I'm not sure if that is what you want. Please clarify.    5 > > the command "Exit" followed by a carriage return.g > > " > > Any help would be appreciated.' > > -----------------------------------  > > Barry Skidmore' > > skidmore at alternate-venue dot orga$ > > Hobbyist MicroVAX 3100-40 System > > Running OpenVMS 7.2s' > > -----------------------------------t >  > What about > ( > 	DEFINE KEY FUNCTION 17 AS "EXT EXIT."     F17 is FUNCTION 31, not 17.      > Will that do what you want?o >  > Joe H. Gallagher, Ph. D. > WRUG LUG Chair$ > Former SIG Chair/Newsletter Editor > 4GL/DATATRIEVE SIG of DECUS $ > See "The DATATRIEVE Programmer" at  > http://dtrwiz.home.netcom.com/! > dtrwiz at ix dot netcom dot com-   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmand" afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:32:58 GMTn3 From: skidmore@alternate-venue.org (Barry Skidmore)t* Subject: Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File2 Message-ID: <KQJN8.250$yK6.56772@news1.iquest.net>   >y' >PF4 is the DEL L key, not "Command:".   >t, >If you want F17 to be "Command:", try this: >n< >DEFINE KEY FUNCTION 31 AS "EXT ?*'Command: '."   ! F17: Do: >tA >This lets you type in a command and press Return to execute it.   >e7 >I'm not sure if that is what you want. Please clarify.c >,  C Here is the definition that was suggested and is doing what I want:   2 DEFINE KEY GOLD FUNCTION 31 AS "EXT EXIT."    also* DEFINE KEY GOLD FUNCTION 32 AS "EXT QUIT."  , Thanks to everyone for their help with this.# -----------------------------------  Barry Skidmore# skidmore at alternate-venue dot org   Hobbyist MicroVAX 3100-40 System Running OpenVMS 7.2e# -----------------------------------    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:50:35 +0100 (MET)o9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>h Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM; Message-ID: <01KIUOEOPDZ6984WQP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   G > I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that /Trans=Term wasiF > there to prevent a user from re-directing a logical someplace else.   F Well, that is a feature (i.e. if DISK$ALPHASYS is DSA0:, a user can't G define DSA0: to XXX if DISK$ALPHASYS is defined /TRAN=CONC).  However, m@ this feature would be useful for all types of logicals, whereas C /TRANS=TERM only works if the target of the definition really is a   physical device.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 12:04:39 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM3 Message-ID: <r6l9fF9fVLpv@eisner.encompasserve.org>J  w In article <01KIUOEOPDZ6984WQP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:eH >> I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that /Trans=Term wasG >> there to prevent a user from re-directing a logical someplace else. p > H > Well, that is a feature (i.e. if DISK$ALPHASYS is DSA0:, a user can't I > define DSA0: to XXX if DISK$ALPHASYS is defined /TRAN=CONC).  However, lB > this feature would be useful for all types of logicals, whereas E > /TRANS=TERM only works if the target of the definition really is a a > physical device.   That's patently untrue.c   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:31:41 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>o Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM; Message-ID: <01KIUS021WWW96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>r  J > >> I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that /Trans=Term wasI > >> there to prevent a user from re-directing a logical someplace else. N > > J > > Well, that is a feature (i.e. if DISK$ALPHASYS is DSA0:, a user can't K > > define DSA0: to XXX if DISK$ALPHASYS is defined /TRAN=CONC).  However, sD > > this feature would be useful for all types of logicals, whereas G > > /TRANS=TERM only works if the target of the definition really is a o > > physical device. >  > That's patently untrue.   H Sorry, that's not what I meant.  Of course one can define a logical name< which is the same as a device name, but in the example aboveD DISK$ALPHASYS won't translate to it, since the translation stops at ? DSA0:.  So although the logical can be defined, it won't cause  ) DISK$ALPHASYS to point to somewhere else.m   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 02:30:22 -0700$ From: issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho) Subject: Re: ECO Patches= Message-ID: <d0141774.0206120130.1f901214@posting.google.com>t  Z p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote in message news:<V9E7eaASvE$B@elias.decus.ch>...e > In article <d0141774.0206110303.3a600ed@posting.google.com>, issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho) writes: 	 > > Guys,m > > = > > A few questions about ECO patches, if you will indulge...i > > J > > 1. If I have a series of dependent kits, do I have to install and thenF > > reboot after each one, or can I install them all at the same time? > >  > L > There's no way I'll reboot after every kit. It simply takes too much time.A > If necessary I will do a minimum boot to install multiple kits.  >   F Will kits that check for dependent kits having been pre-installed pass. this check if a reboot has not been performed?  N > You need to analyze the cover letters carefully to determine what you can do > safely and what you can't. > < > > 2. What's the best way of applying the kits clusterwide? > . > Do you have shared or separate system disks? >   % Separate system disks, no satellites.z   > > E > > 3. How can I tell which, if any, kits are currently applied on myS > > systems? >   > For kits for VMS V7.2 onwards: >  > $ PRODUCT SHOW HISTORY > G > For earlier versions, on Alpha, look in SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL.HISTORY.j >  > > ' > > 4. Any other gotchas to be wary of?D > >  > 4 > What version of VMS are you running? VAX or Alpha?  > Mixed architecture, however VAX's will be retired (very) soon.   > M > As a general rule, I try to apply ECO kits with at least the network up andaQ > running, so that I can do a SET HOST/LOG=KIT_LOGS:kit_name.log. That way I have ' > my own record of what I did and when.l > N > I will also drop a shadowset member out of the system disk prior to applyingH > the ECO (particularly for multiple ECOS) so that if it all goes wrong,@ > reverting to the version before the ECO is just a reboot away. >  > __ > Paul Sture
 > SwitzerlandM   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:27:06 GMTa: From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@paradigm-shift.biz>% Subject: Re: Fibre Disk vs. SCSI Disk , Message-ID: <3d0705a3_1@news.iprimus.com.au>  L It depends on what you mean by fibre disks. Fibre disks on an OpenVMS systemJ are currently accessed via an HSG80. In that sense OpenVMS can access themD directly, in exactly the same sense that OpenVMS accesses SCSI disks directly through an HSJ.  L HSGs allow direct access to all disks in a HBVS set, HSJs do not do the sameI thing for SCSI disks. In my experience HSGs are *much* faster than HSJs (e( same type of disk behind the controller)  ; "Peter LANGSTOEGER" <peter@langstoeger.at> wrote in messagep/ news:PChN8.197698$305.2658285@news.chello.at...VL > In article <ae3enk$t4s$1@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>, "Steven# Thompson" <steven@omga.biz> writes:d > >The arguments are good. >f( > Which ones? They are partly opposite ? > G > >                        So where do do put your money? Just how many  disks  > >are you going to buy? >s' > Sorry, I should have made it clearer.sG > It was a discussion I only watched. The SAN is used ONLY with NT5 and J > happens to be a one with Fibre Disks now. No specific (I/O) requirements wereK > stated. And least not during the discussion(s) I had the chance to watch.dF > Capacity was 'as much as the money lasts' (I assume some lower 100GB number)nA > and reason was 'replace the - existing and now to small - DAS'.UI > I was not part of the discussion(s), because I had no arguments at all.w >h* > So, you are on the fibre-disk side now ?* > Or is this a typical 'it depends' case ? >e > Thanks for respondingi >o > -- > Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERe' > Network and OpenVMS system specialistn > E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atK > A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMSi Job(s)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:20:23 GMTo: From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@paradigm-shift.biz>! Subject: Re: hobbyist (mini)mergen, Message-ID: <3d070485_1@news.iprimus.com.au>  G mini merge will happen if the controller(s) support it. This definitelyeJ HSJxx, and I believe currently not HSGxx, not sure about other controllers  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KIT3HISTC6984WQP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com... H > > The need for a merge really has nothing to do with what type of pathG > > one uses to reach the disks.  The requirements are the same whethertI > > you are accessing the disk directly (as in a SCSI cluster) or via thet > > VMS MSCP Server over a LAN.M >- > Right. >t  > > A merge will be required if: > >nI > > 2) There are at least 2 shadowset members left in the shadowset after(E > > the node leaves (such that a write operation in progress from the.G > > departed node might have reached one or more of the members but not  > > all of the members)- >-J > If I just have two members altogether, then it will always be full copy, > not merge? >c@ > > A Mini-merge can be done instead of a Full Merge if the diskI > > controller supports the MSCP Volume Shadowing Assists (in particular,nG > > Write History Logging).  HSJ and HSD controller models tend to haveeE > > this feature.  If you have the VMS MSCP Server serving local SCSIn4 > > disks, the write-logging capability isn't there. > 9 > Right---no capability, so another reason for full copy.. >uI > > If the node leaving the cluster unexpectedly also takes a member awaytK > > with it, that member will need to be the subject of a Full Copy when ith > > returns. >nJ > That's why I mentioned non-MSCP paths.  If the node leaves, it will takeH > the disk with it, since it is only accessible to other nodes via MSCP.I > Thus, if I understand all correctly, a third reason why, in my case, it:$ > will always be copy and not merge.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:05:56 +0200n$ From: "Peter Flunger" <p-i-b@gmx.at>B Subject: Re: How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?0 Message-ID: <ae6vd4$fd2$1@newsreader1.netway.at>  / "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote  > "Tim C." wrote:r > >nF > > We have an Ethernet network of VAXes running DECNet and VMS 5.5-2.9 > > How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?  > 2 > if $ MC NCL works, then you are running DECNET 5D > if $MC NCL doesn't work, then you are running the better DECNET 4. >o >MI > MC NCP SHOW EXEC CHAR will reveal a DECNET 4 version as the "Managementi	 version".    ..and if NCL is working, $MC NCL SHOW IMPLEMENTATIONh+ will tell you which Version you are runningg   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:17:49 GMT : From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@paradigm-shift.biz>B Subject: Re: How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?, Message-ID: <3d0703f1_1@news.iprimus.com.au>   and if it is Phase V   mc ncl sho imp  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D06AAEF.B4D8A26C@videotron.ca... > "Tim C." wrote:f > >.F > > We have an Ethernet network of VAXes running DECNet and VMS 5.5-2.9 > > How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?e >m2 > if $ MC NCL works, then you are running DECNET 5D > if $MC NCL doesn't work, then you are running the better DECNET 4. >r >sI > MC NCP SHOW EXEC CHAR will reveal a DECNET 4 version as the "Managementg	 version".n   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2002 16:36:49 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)B Subject: Re: How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?* Message-ID: <ae7tb1$dot$2@web1.cup.hp.com>  c In article <399504c6.0206111723.38278c32@posting.google.com>, fs63@volcanomail.com (Tim C.) writes:fE :We have an Ethernet network of VAXes running DECNet and VMS 5.5-2.  w6 :How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?  A   The DECnet version tracks the OpenVMS version -- the version ofe?   OpenVMS is always the version of DECnet, as DECnet itself is o>   specifically built for each OpenVMS release.  (Sometimes the?   DECnet displays will confuse matters, and will refer to other.=   versions and other OpenVMS releases.  These DECnet version -7   displays are unfortunately incorrect and misleading.)h  B   As for the DECnet Phase you are running, there are various ways.     One of the most common:6     $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:NCP   SHOW EXECe  @   Alternatively, look in the upper word of the value returned by@   the following itemcode -- this item is available on all recent   OpenVMS releases.u   	$! on Phase IV: 	$ x=f$getsyi("DECNET_VERSION")e
 	$ sho sym x	  	  X = "00040000"    	$! on Phase V:  	$ x=f$getsyi("DECNET_VERSION")  	$ sho sym x 	  X = "00050E04"c  F   You can also check the name of the DECnet ancillary control process.D   The following command assumes V7.1 and later because of the use ofC   PIPE, but the operation works across all recent OpenVMS versions:s  5   $ pipe show sys | search sys$input net,acp/matc=and   D   If you see NETACP, you are running Phase IV.  If NET$ACP, Phase V.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 04:51:11 -0700+ From: pierre.bru@spotimage.fr (Bru, Pierre)v" Subject: how to renew a vmasmail ?= Message-ID: <1c0e37b1.0206120351.32c62090@posting.google.com>m   hello,  B is modifing the right record of sys$system:vmsmail_profile.dat theF only way/hach of renewing mails moved/copied into the newmail folder ?   TIA, Pierre.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:06:00 -0400g0 From: "Syltrem" <syltremspammenot@videotron.com>& Subject: Re: how to renew a vmasmail ?4 Message-ID: <ZyIN8.3230$H67.17236@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   What do you mean by renewing?n Have you tried doing a MAIL> READ/NEW from the user account in cause?2   --   Syltrem0I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)T> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  H "Bru, Pierre" <pierre.bru@spotimage.fr> a crit dans le message de news:2 1c0e37b1.0206120351.32c62090@posting.google.com... > hello, > D > is modifing the right record of sys$system:vmsmail_profile.dat theH > only way/hach of renewing mails moved/copied into the newmail folder ? >i > TIA,	 > Pierre.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:40:29 GMTm# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>"' Subject: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plansEI Message-ID: <1jHN8.299538$t8_.43010@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>    ...from www.informationweek.comp    H Hewlett-Packard is enticing owners of its once-popular, now-doomed e3000J servers to buy HP-UX or Linux systems. The most likely migration path willG be to HP 9000 servers running HP-UX, although buyers could also move to-I Intel-based ProLiant servers. HP is using a number of migration programs,IH including one that provides e3000 customers with "loaner" HP 9000s untilJ they can make a full transition.It's also doing free migration assessments? through HP Services and software and hardware trade-in rebates.B  L HP's approach to retiring products will be closely watched, especially as itK reconciles its product line with that of the newly acquired Compaq. GartnertK analyst Paul McGuckin says this process "might help them see what works and ? what doesn't when they phase out [Compaq] Tru64" Unix machines.e  K Virginia International Terminals is taking HP up on its offers. VIT managesmF Virginia's shipping ports, using four e3000 servers to track 1 millionD containers annually along the state's shoreline. When HP said it wasH discontinuing the e3000, "it sent a shockwave through our organization," says Clark Farabaugh,lI VIT's assistant IT director. VIT took advantage of HP's loaner program to G begin migrating its container-management apps to HP-UX, scuttle its old F e3000 Turbo Image database, and adopt the more Web-friendly Oracle 9i. - Larry Greenemeier    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 08:27:40 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)I+ Subject: Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans 3 Message-ID: <QWenDDGpBWnH@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  o In article <1jHN8.299538$t8_.43010@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:e! > ...from www.informationweek.com   N > HP's approach to retiring products will be closely watched, especially as itM > reconciles its product line with that of the newly acquired Compaq. Gartner-M > analyst Paul McGuckin says this process "might help them see what works andvA > what doesn't when they phase out [Compaq] Tru64" Unix machines.i  E Who would have thought that someone from Gartner would not know about $ little-endian vs big-endian issues ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:00:00 GMT"8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)+ Subject: Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans 2 Message-ID: <AtIN8.11$435.160860@news.cpqcorp.net>  J In article <1jHN8.299538$t8_.43010@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, % "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:     >...from www.informationweek.com > I >Hewlett-Packard is enticing owners of its once-popular, now-doomed e3000 K >servers to buy HP-UX or Linux systems. The most likely migration path wille) >be to HP 9000 servers running HP-UX, ...t  I Prior to joining DIGITAL 20+ years ago, I worked on an HP 3000 runnig MPE-G for several years.  Based on this, I would expect that from a technical G standpoint, the transition from MPE to OpenVMS would be easier than the/ transition to any form of Unix.P  F Of course, other opinions will differ, and there ARE issues other than, technical -- software availabiltiy, for one.H And I must admit that I am not particularly knowledgable regarding Unix. (any flavor thereof.)e   -- SK     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USAe8                        Compaq is now part of the New HP!H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:30:40 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 3 Subject: Re: Job Opening: Chief Competitive Officere, Message-ID: <3D06EA86.F35CCD22@videotron.ca>   Joel Berman wrote: > * > Job Title:      Chief Competitive Office  K Wouldn't it be a hoot if Bob GQ Palmer applied and got that job at HP ?????t  I I think that hiring Palmer in any job at HP, anmd making his new positionhM annoncement public would achieve a lot for HP, and would especially move HP'st& plans for VMS forwards by a decade :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:06:41 GMTa1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>t3 Subject: Re: Job Opening: Chief Competitive Officer , Message-ID: <lPGN8.16091$nZ3.1875@rwcrnsc53>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D06EA86.F35CCD22@videotron.ca... > Joel Berman wrote: > >r, > > Job Title:      Chief Competitive Office >-G > Wouldn't it be a hoot if Bob GQ Palmer applied and got that job at HPr ?????t  1 Well, it would be newsworthy if nothing else! ;-}>  K Mr. Palmer's skill set obviously does not include competitive marketing. If D it did, the Alpha debacle would have been handled a bit differently.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 08:18:02 -06002 From: cochrane@encompasserve.org (Arthur Cochrane)0 Subject: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL3 Message-ID: <UlT9K4raj$k6@eisner.encompasserve.org>   E     I am a VMS system manager but to broaden my worth I want to learn K     Linux/UNIX. I have installed Red Hat Linux on one of my PCs at home andaE     on an Alpha workstation at work, but I use another Alpha with VMSoJ     installed for my real work of VMS system management. What I would likeF     is to define symbols that are Unix commands for VMS commands, i.e.K     pwd:==show default. Also, maybe some programs to do VMS things but withsI     UNIX style commands. Grep for search as an example. I have VILE for a7J     vi editor (just need to start using it, I love TPU/EDT). If I could atG     least start using UNIX syntax that would help in some transition. IeJ     understand Unix and the file system but getting use to the commands isJ     the next hurdle I think I need now. In DCL you use SHOW so look at theI     status of a lot of items, (show user, show system, show network, show J     default, etc.) but in Unix each of these commands is a different verb.H     The same with SET, (set process, set default, file, etc.) To save meG     some work is there a good resource that would have a command file IbJ     could copy to my login.com to set up some good symbols? Are there someG     command procedures to emulate some of the basic Unix commands? BestfI     programs to do Unix commands on VMS? This way I can do my work on VMSa4     but learn Unix commands also. Thanks in advance.       Arthur Cochrane @     stop_spamcochrane@stop_spamEisner.Encompasserve.orgstop_spam     Remove all stop_spam above   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 06:49:18 -0700 (PDT) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>4 Subject: Re: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL@ Message-ID: <20020612134918.18643.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com>   Check at  
 www.bosbc.com      Regardso   FC t0 --- Arthur Cochrane <cochrane@encompasserve.org> wrote:1 >     I am a VMS system manager but to broaden myo > worth I want to learne3 >     Linux/UNIX. I have installed Red Hat Linux onp > one of my PCs at home ande0 >     on an Alpha workstation at work, but I use > another Alpha with VMS. >     installed for my real work of VMS system > management. What I would likea5 >     is to define symbols that are Unix commands forr > VMS commands, i.e.6 >     pwd:==show default. Also, maybe some programs to > do VMS things but with0 >     UNIX style commands. Grep for search as an > example. I have VILE for a4 >     vi editor (just need to start using it, I love > TPU/EDT). If I could ata6 >     least start using UNIX syntax that would help in > some transition. I5 >     understand Unix and the file system but gettingr > use to the commands is4 >     the next hurdle I think I need now. In DCL you > use SHOW so look at the 0 >     status of a lot of items, (show user, show > system, show network, show. >     default, etc.) but in Unix each of these > commands is a different verb.S3 >     The same with SET, (set process, set default,J > file, etc.) To save me3 >     some work is there a good resource that woulds > have a command file Ip4 >     could copy to my login.com to set up some good > symbols? Are there someo5 >     command procedures to emulate some of the basicl > Unix commands? Best<5 >     programs to do Unix commands on VMS? This way I" > can do my work on VMS@6 >     but learn Unix commands also. Thanks in advance. >  >     Arthur Cochranep >    ? > < stop_spamcochrane@stop_spamEisner.Encompasserve.orgstop_spam  >     Remove all stop_spam above     =====? ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - BrazilN fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?0 Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.comt   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 06:49:14 -0700 (PDT)h. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>4 Subject: Re: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL@ Message-ID: <20020612134914.18613.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com>   Check at  
 www.bosbc.coms     Regards    FC s0 --- Arthur Cochrane <cochrane@encompasserve.org> wrote:1 >     I am a VMS system manager but to broaden my  > worth I want to learn-3 >     Linux/UNIX. I have installed Red Hat Linux on  > one of my PCs at home and 0 >     on an Alpha workstation at work, but I use > another Alpha with VMS. >     installed for my real work of VMS system > management. What I would liken5 >     is to define symbols that are Unix commands for  > VMS commands, i.e.6 >     pwd:==show default. Also, maybe some programs to > do VMS things but with0 >     UNIX style commands. Grep for search as an > example. I have VILE for a4 >     vi editor (just need to start using it, I love > TPU/EDT). If I could at-6 >     least start using UNIX syntax that would help in > some transition. I5 >     understand Unix and the file system but gettingr > use to the commands is4 >     the next hurdle I think I need now. In DCL you > use SHOW so look at the 0 >     status of a lot of items, (show user, show > system, show network, show. >     default, etc.) but in Unix each of these > commands is a different verb.e3 >     The same with SET, (set process, set default,i > file, etc.) To save me3 >     some work is there a good resource that woulde > have a command file If4 >     could copy to my login.com to set up some good > symbols? Are there someb5 >     command procedures to emulate some of the basic  > Unix commands? BestM5 >     programs to do Unix commands on VMS? This way Im > can do my work on VMSa6 >     but learn Unix commands also. Thanks in advance. >  >     Arthur Cochranee >    h >f< stop_spamcochrane@stop_spamEisner.Encompasserve.orgstop_spam  >     Remove all stop_spam above     =====  ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?0 Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:13:03 -0400s* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>4 Subject: RE: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL- Message-ID: <0033000067733146000002L062*@MHS>-  4 =0AI trust you have Bourne's "UNIX for VMS Users"...   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET & Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 9:23 AMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET0 Subject: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL    E     I am a VMS system manager but to broaden my worth I want to learnlH     Linux/UNIX. I have installed Red Hat Linux on one of my PCs at home=  andE     on an Alpha workstation at work, but I use another Alpha with VMSeH     installed for my real work of VMS system management. What I would l= ikeaF     is to define symbols that are Unix commands for VMS commands, i.e.H     pwd:=3D=3Dshow default. Also, maybe some programs to do VMS things = but withH     UNIX style commands. Grep for search as an example. I have VILE for=  aH     vi editor (just need to start using it, I love TPU/EDT). If I could=  atfH     least start using UNIX syntax that would help in some transition. I=  H     understand Unix and the file system but getting use to the commands=  is H     the next hurdle I think I need now. In DCL you use SHOW so look at = the H     status of a lot of items, (show user, show system, show network, sh= owH     default, etc.) but in Unix each of these commands is a different ve= rb.kH     The same with SET, (set process, set default, file, etc.) To save m= enH     some work is there a good resource that would have a command file I=  H     could copy to my login.com to set up some good symbols? Are there s= ome H     command procedures to emulate some of the basic Unix commands? Best=  H     programs to do Unix commands on VMS? This way I can do my work on V= MS4     but learn Unix commands also. Thanks in advance.       Arthur Cochrane.@     stop_spamcochrane@stop_spamEisner.Encompasserve.orgstop_spam     Remove all stop_spam above=o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:53:50 -0400D! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>t4 Subject: Re: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL' Message-ID: <3D07607E.495F6809@vcu.edu>e  , This is a multi-part message in MIME format.& --------------2637BF916E75F6107FC53866* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bits  F There is/was a book UNIX for VMS users, from digital press. I think it1 may be outta print, but you could check around...e  ; plus, there is a cheat sheet i'll append to this message...    Arthur Cochrane wrote: > G >     I am a VMS system manager but to broaden my worth I want to learn M >     Linux/UNIX. I have installed Red Hat Linux on one of my PCs at home and G >     on an Alpha workstation at work, but I use another Alpha with VMSE  $ ... res of message chainsawed off...& --------------2637BF916E75F6107FC53866+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;"  name="Cheats.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitC Content-Disposition: inline;  filename="Cheats.txt"     couple of ways....U in the terminal monitor you can look in the system catalogs (can't remember which oneoU for sure) for the name, then to see how it is created you use help view viewname, youy/ may want to turn on scripting to save the code.   V another way to find out what the views are is (in the terminal monitor) simply do helpV \g, it should list all the tables and views, then if you have it scripted you can edit< the file, add 'help view' before the names and then run it .  ( If that is correct, it almost scares me!   M:)       @ On Vax/VMS, it is so handy to be able to enter DIR/SIN [...] and< > get all files today with their paths clearly identifiable. > H > THere seems to be no easy UNIX equivalent, or does anyone know of one? >     A This will come close.  If you're forced to do UNIX, you'ld better     learn find:      find . -mtime -1 -print  F    Note:  exeact syntax depends on which UNIX, but the above will work&    on any I've had access to recently.      & --------------2637BF916E75F6107FC53866+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;   name="CheatSheet.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit8 Content-Disposition: inline;  filename="CheatSheet.txt"  M Jim Agnew:  Carlisle, TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IF MY MYSQL SERVER IS EVEN RUNNINGe                   TRYt   ps ax | less  +                 IT WILL LIST ALL PROCESSES.r  ;                 JUST MAKE SURE IT'S RUNNING, AND IF NOT HOWy$                 TO MAKE IT AUTOSTART  )                 SEE IF MYSQL IS LISTED IN:   chkconfig --list | less0                   OR   ls /etc/rc.d/init.d/   > Hi,h >iM > I m under linux with bash support, and I d like to make a ls with a regexp,a > like : > ls *[A|a]*@ > I mean liste all files in the dir that contain a "A" or a "a".   You almost had it:
     ls *[Aa]*1 I'm not sure if you mean:m           ls *[Aa]*"   or           ls -R *[Aa]*    -                 OR IS AT THE END OF THIS FILEe   tail /etc/rc.d/rc.locale    4                 TO FIND ALL FILES IN SUBDIRS BY NAME   find . -name "name"e  @                 TO FIND ALL FILES IN CURRENT DIR CONTAINING TEXT   grep -i "text" *.htm  , 		Not sure if that's what you meant.  -Fritz  " find . -name "foo bar" | xargs cat   		MySQL is located at:   ./usr/local/mysqli  + 		How to find a string in lower directoriesd  7 find <directory> -type f -print | xargs fgrep -l strings  L                                           l = filenames only (lowercase ell)@                                           1 = 1 line plus fnames   -- P) Add  -print and you will get the path, soo  ( find / -name "foo" -print  2 > /dev/null    P <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>  E This section is for odds and ends of knowledge that spans across manye different things..    P <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>   GCS = Eye + Motor + Verb  " MAP = (( 2 * DiaBp ) + SysBp ) / 3  - to find substrings in Access use LIKE "*GCS*"     P <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>    w  DSN  SAFPHAR.SAS   a  DATE 28-JUL-1999 JPA   hA        THIS PROGRAM HANDLES THE DATA SAFETY TRACKING FOR PHARMOS pB        WE PRODUCE THE STATS AS ON THE PAPER DATED MARCH 5TH, 1999         FOR THE STAT REPORT 1 m   !   TABLES        SEXGROUP / EXACT i   )   FISCHER'S EXACT TEST IS GOOD FOR FREQS -  -  -  -K  TESTS FOR A NORMAL DISTRIBUTION FOR TESTING MEANS IF PR<W < .05 THEN DATA          IS SKEWED    j+        PROC UNIVARIATE NORMAL DATA=PHARMOS s  -     e8  FOR A NORMAL DISTRIBUTION, THIS TEST IS THE ONE TO USE H  NORMAL IS FOLLOWING THE STANDARD NORMAL CURVE. IF DATA IS SKEWED USING D  UNIVARIATE THEN THIS TEST IS SHAKEY, BUT IF PROP>F' < .05 THEN USE D  UNEQUAL VARIANCE TEST, THEN PROB>|T| IS THE VALUE TO USE FOR TTEST   eG  THIS TEST IS MORE POWERFUL SINCE YOURE WORKING WITH THE ACTUAL VALUES -     PROC TTEST DATA=PHARMOS t     c     g  h<  FOR A NON-NORMAL DISTRIBUTION, THIS TEST IS THE ONE TO USE K  NORMAL IS FOLLOWING THE STANDARD NORMAL CURVE. WHEN YOU HAVE DISTRIBUTION mD  PROBLEMS USE THE RANK-SUM VALUE PROB>|Z| IS THE VALUE FOR RANK-SUM   -J  THIS TEST IS MORE ROBUST, BUT LESS POWERFUL SINCE YOURE WORKING WITH THE H  MEDIANS CONSTRUCTED FROM THE ACTUAL VALUES, THEREBY LOSING DETAIL, BUT   GAINING A "STURDIER" TEST g*        PROC NPAR1WAY WILCOXON DATA=PHARMOS     a  DATABASES     CONSORTIUM ?  TABLES                       NOT APPLICABLE FOR PHARMOS DEMOG o  TABLES        PHARMOS r  TABLES        PHARMOSGOS       							1-OCT-1999 11:48:56     			Date 28-jul-1999 JPA     eH This program SAFxxx.SAS handles the data safety tracking for pharmos. WeE produce the stats as on the paper dated march 5th, 1999  for the stati	 report 1 L  +J tests for a normal distribution for testing means if pr<w < .05 then data 
 is skewed   D For testings stats on frequency distributions of more than 2x2, use:   	PROC FREQ DATA=??? ;t= 	TABLES SEX * GROUP / EXACT ;	Of course you realize these areo 	RUN ;				example names!!! ;-)  i1 		Fisher's 2-Tailed Exact test is good for freqs.   j   For means of groups, we'll:n   1.	Use PROC UNIVARIATE...     	look for W:Normal= to be < .05.   2A.	If NOT, then:  		DATA IS NORMAL.V2 		use PROC TTEST, and look for Prob>F to be < .05.  8 		For a normal distribution, this test is the one to use; 		normal is following the standard normal curve. if data isN: 		skewed using univariate then this test is shakey, but if= 		prop>f' < .05 then use unequal variance test, then prob>|t|u  		is the value to use for ttest.  l9 		This test is more powerful since youre working with them 		actual values     	If NOT,* 		use equal variances value, REPORT T-TEST  
 	If so, then: - 		use unequal variances value, REPORT T-TEST.n     2B.	If so, then:   		NORMAL HAS FAILED.  > 		use PROC NPAR1WAY, and the Wilcoxon 2-sum, use the value for 			Prob>|Z| = your test value. 			REPORT WILCOXON RANK-SUMs      = 		For a non-normal distribution, this test is the one to use  9 		normal is following the standard normal curve. when you < 		have distribution problems use the rank-sum value prob>|z| 		is the value for rank-sum   & --------------2637BF916E75F6107FC53866+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii;c  name="VMS2UNIX.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  Content-Disposition: inline;  filename="VMS2UNIX.TXT"    filename="vms2unix.txt"  & OpenVMS Commands with unix equivalents  % OpenVMS				unix		Explanation/examplesaI =========================================================================u/ APPEND				cat		Concatenates files.  If contentst# 						of file1 need to be placed ata% 						the end of file2 issue the fol-y& 						lowing unix command.cat file1 >> 						file2 2 ASSIGN or DEFINE		= 		(Bourne & Korn)set (C shell)& 						in Bourne or Korn shell DIR = ls 						in C shell set DIR ls?
 ATTACH				fg	 3 BACKUP				tar or pax	back up files into a tar file.o'   /INIT				tar -c or pax	Restore files.n!   /LIST				tar -t		List contents.E"   /LOG				tar -v		Report progress.5   /NOREWIND			tar -r		Write at end of existing backup- 						(tar) files.3   /RECORD			tar -m		Update file?s modification daten 						upon restore.: COPY				cp		Copy a file - COPY				ftp		Copy to/from a nontrusted remote8 						host. ( COPY				rcp		Copy to/from a remote host.. COPY /CONFIRM			cp -i		Confirm before copying.) CREATE				touch		Create or update a file.o,   /DIRECTORY			mkdir		Create a subdirectory.B CREATE filename			cat << filename	Create a file from the keyboard. CREATE filename			cat	 DEBUG				dbx		Debug a program. DELETE				rm		Delete a file.. DELETE				rmdir		Delete an empty subdirectory.%   /CONFIRM			rm -i		Confirm deletion. 0   /ENTRY			lprm		Remove queued line printer job.3   /QUEUE			lprm -P		Remove all jobs from the queue. .   /LOG				rm -e		Delete files and list them as 						they are deleted.p,   /SYMBOL			unset		Get rid of an environment 						variable.-4 DIFFERENCES			diff		Display all differences in files 						or directories.n8   /MAXIMUM_DIFF= 1		cmp		Display first difference in two  						files (typically used with 						binary files).8   /NUMBER NL:			cat -n	Display a file with line numbers.3   /SLP				diff - e	Generate editing changes for thee 						ed editor. DIRECTORY			ls		List files.o9 DIRECTORY [...]			ls -R		Do a recursive directory/list ofn 						files.# DIRECTORY [...]			find		Find a filet4 DIRECTORY *.DIR			ls -d		List directory name(s) only 						ls -Rd:   /BY_OWNER			ls -l dir | grep owner	List only those files 						owned by a specifed user. *   /COLUMN			ls -1		List one file per line./   /DATE				ls -c		List by creation/last modifi- 
 						cation.V   /FULL				ls -l		Long listing. *   /FULL /TOTAL			du		Summarize disk usage.F   /MODIFIED /SINCE [...]	find -mtime +n	Modified more than n days ago.G   /MODIFIED /BEFORE [...]	find -mtime +n	Modified more than n days ago.e.   /OWNER			ls -g		Include group (used with |).   /SIZE				ls -s		Include size. : DISMOUNT /UNLOAD		mt rewofmt offline	Rewind and unload the 						tape.e+ DUMP				od		Dump a file in various formats.o)   /HEXADECIMAL			od -h		Hexadecimal dump.5   /OCTAL			od -o		Octal dump.t3 EDIT /EDT,EDIT /EVE, EVE	vi		Screen editor session.o4 EDIT /RECOVER			vi -r		Recover a screen editing ses- 						sion.n, EXCHANGE			dd		Back up, restore, and convert 						nonstandard files.! EXIT				exit		Terminate a script. - HELP				man		Display online reference pages.  9 HELP HINTS			man -k topic	Display a list of commands thatM! 						correspond to the specifiedO 						topic.C INQUIRE /NOPUNCTUATION		read choice? 	Prompt for a responce and putI# 						the response into an environ-  						ment variable.9 INITIALIZE device:		fddisk -fmt device	Format a diskette. " LIBRARY				ar		Library maintainer.#   /CREATE			ar -cr		Create library.*$   /EXTRACT			ar -x		Extract modules."   /INSERT			ar -q		Insert modules.   /LIST				ar -t		List modules.'$   /REPLACE			ar -r		Replace modules.* LINK				ld		Link compiled source code into 						an executable image.D login procedureLOGIN /CLI	.login.cshrc.profile.kshrc	Set of commands% 						automatically executed at logini" 						time.  On OpenVMS, LOGIN/CLI$ 						specifies an alternate command 						language interpreter."0 LOGOUT				logout C shellexit Bourne & Korn shell# 						Terminate a terminal session.s& MAIL				mail		Invoke the mail utility.% MERGE				sort -m		Merge sorted files.i MOUNT				mount		Mount a tape.i; ON COUNTROL_C THEN		trap 2		Enable handler for Stop signal. $ ON CONTROL_Y			onintr		On interrupt.) PHONE				talk tty	name	Communicate inter- ! 						actively with another user.i) PRINT				lpr		Print a file on the default  						line printer.o&   /COPIES=N			lpr -#n		Print n copies..   /DELETE			lpr -r		Remove file after printing PRINT commands cont.		4   /FORM				lpr -ln		Make page n lines (default = 66))   /FORM				lpr -n		Print n column output.f'   /FORM				lpr -wn		Set line width to n>5   /HEADER			pr -h string | lpr	Print a header on each> 						page.y=   /NAME=jobname			lpr -Jjobname	Include job name on the firstn 						page of the job..   /NOFLAG			lpr -h		Print with no header page..   /NOTIFY			lpr -m		Send mail upon completion.3   /PAGES=(n,??)			lpr +n		Begin printing on page n.94   /QUEUE			lpr -Pqueue	Print a file on the specified 						queue.% READ				read		Read input (korn shell) + RECALL /ALL			history		Recall command lines 3 REPLY /USER			write		Send a brief message to a log-P 						ged-in userI! RENAME	mv			move/rename a file(s)S1    /CONFIRM			mv -i		confirm the move/rename of aR
 						file(s)I) SEARCH				grep		Search files for strings. 4    /MATCH=NOR			grep -v		List only lines that do not 						matchR0    /NOEXACT			grep -i		Ignore case distinctions.3    /NUMBERS			grep -n		Precede each match with lineF
 						number. 4    /STATISTICS			grep -c		List only a file name that 						contains match6   /WINDOW = 0			grep -l		Return only file name(s) that 						contains match>   file pat?rn /WINDOW=5		more -5 	+/pat?rn file	Display search$ 						line plus two lines before and  						after. (Terminate with q).B   file pat?rn /WIND=(5,0)	cat file | more -5+pat?rn	Display search  						line plus next five lines.# SET DEFAULT			cd		Change directory.S3 SET FILE/OWNER			chgrp		Change group ownership of aU 						file. 1 SET HOST			rlogin		Network login to trusted host.W& SET HOST /DTE			tip		Dial remote host.2 SET HOST 0 /LOG			script		Record a transcript of a 						terminal session.T1 SET PASSWORD			passwd		Change you local password. > SET PROCESS /PRIORITY		nice or renice	Change the priority of a 						process./ SET PROTECTION			chmod		Change file protection.E2    /DEFAULT			umask		Change default protection for 						files not yet created.9 SET TERMINAL			tset or stty	Set terminal characteristics.r5 SET VERIFY			ksh -x orcsh -x	Verify command or scripte% 						execution.  Echo after variable  						substitution. . SHOW DEFAULT			pwd		Display current directory.> SHOW DEVICE /FULL		df filesystem	Display information on a file 						system3 SHOW LOGICAL			printenv	Display environment charac-  						teristics.9 SHOW PROCESS /ALL		ps -l		Dislay all processes on system.m. SHOW /QUEUE			lpq		Display default print queue
 						status.i/ SHOW STATUS			time		Display resources used by at 						process.' SHOw TIME			date		Display date and timeh- SHOW USERS			who		Display the list of current  						system users.- SORT				sort		Sort and merge. =    /KEY	sort 			   +fskip.cskip /-fskip.cskip	Starting/endingm 						porint of sort key.t0    /OUTPUT			sort -o file	Direct output to file./ SPAWN /NOWAIT			bg		Move a process to the back-p
 						ground.-% STOP /ID			kill -9		Remove a process.,) SUBMIT				at		Start a process at a latteri
 						time TYPE				cat		Display a file:.    /PAGE			more		Display a file, pausing after 						each page.0    /PAGE NL:			clear		Clear the terminal screen.4 WRITE				/bin/echovar > file	Create a file and write# 						a string or the contents of ai 						variable to it.H4 WRITE				/bin/echovar >> file	Append a string or the" 						contents of a variable to an 						existing file.5 WRITE SYS$OUTPUT		echo (c Shell)print (Korn)	Write to  						standard output.  3 OpenVMS Mathematical Operators Function Equivalentse4 ==================================================== OpenVMS		unix	Explanationm .EQ., .EQS.	==	Equal toi .NE., .NES.	!	Not equal to .AND.		&&	Boolean and1 .OR.		||	Boolean or5 .GT., .GTS.	>	Greater than' .GE., .GES.	>=	Greater than or equal tos .LT., .LTS.	<	Less thanr$ .LE., .LES.	<=	Less than or euqal to +		+	add
 -		-	Subtract 
 *		*	Multiplyi /		/	Dividel var + 1		var++	Increment by 1m var - 1		var--	Decrement by 1H
 		%	Modulo 		>>	Right bit shift 		<<	Left bit shiftl .NOT.		~	1?s complements .NOT.		!	Logical negation  .OR.		|	Inclusive OR 		^	Exclusive OR .AND.		&	And  - OpenVMS Lexical Function and unix Equivalents.- =============================================J OpenVMS					unix		Explanationo: F$ENVIRONMENT(?INTERACTIVE?)		tty -s		Determine if you are 							an interactive user.D@ F$EXTRACT(start, length, string)	cut -c		Locate fields in a test 							string and write them 							out.oL F$ELEMENT(element#, delimiter, string)	cut -f -d awk	Locate delimited fields 							in a test string.= F$ENVIRONMENT(?PROCEDURE?)		$0 (Korn)$arg [0] (C)	Get name ofM 							currently executing 							script.= F$TRANSLATE(?SYS$SYSDEVICE?)		sizer -r	Get name of the devicea 							from which the opera- 							ting system boot- 							strapped.8 F$GETDVI(?TT:?, ?DEVNAM?)		tty -s		Determine the name of 							the terminal you areh
 							using. 4 F$GETSYI(?HW_NAME?)			sizer -c	Get model name of the
 							CPU@ F$GETSYI(?HW_MODEL?)F$GETSYI(?CPU?)	sizer -wt	Return workstation 							device type F$GETSYI(?VERSION?)			. 	sizer -bstrings /vmunix | grep ?(Rev?uname -a9 		Determine booted kernel?s file name and system version.w F$GETSYI(?PHYSICALPAGES?)o1 	uerf -r 300 -R | grep physical (+2)wc -c/dev/mem & 		Get the physical memory on a system.4 F$GETSYI(?BOOTTIME?)			who -b		Get system boot time.    unix Branching statementsK DCL command procedures rely on the statements if, gosub, call, and goto fortM program branching.  The shells under unix offer several branching statements.g  " Shell	Branching Statements Offered$ ====================================+ csh	if, goto, while, foreach, switch, shiftsA ksh	do, case, elif, for, function, if, select, time, until, whileo sh	if, for, while, until, case   Debugging Shell ScriptsaL Debugging of shell scripts is done by invoking ksh or sh scripts with the -xO and -v flags.  Debuging of C shell scripts by invoking them with the -v, -V, -x-F or -X flags.  The result is like using the OpenVMS command set verify.      ( --------------2637BF916E75F6107FC53866--   ------------------------------   Date: 12 JUN 2002 14:23:53 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)9 Subject: Re: Mounting shadowset system disks across a SANn6 Message-ID: <12JUN02.14235335@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  H In a previous article, Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> wrote: -> dJ ->Or, you could do it the way I've done it with a 3-site, 3-member clusterH ->that doesn't have Fibre Channel.  The system disk is a 3-member shadowG ->set, with each member local to one node of the cluster.  Each node isiI ->configured to boot from the network, not directly from disk.  Thus, thehH ->scenario you describe above doesn't happen.  The booting member simplyH ->adds his local disk into the shadowset rather than finding a shadowsetI ->conflict.  I even have the files on the system disk explicitly laid outdG ->so that the most commonly read files are nearest the beginning of thesH ->disk so that reads from the local system disk will occur as quickly as( ->possible after the shadow copy starts. ->  H ->In the ultimate failure scenario, where all 3 nodes have failed at theI ->same time.  We determine which node failed last (and thus, is likely tocB ->be the most up to date) and manually boot it to form the initialG ->shadowsets.  The other nodes are then booted normally.  This level ofe+ ->failure has, of course, not yet happened.a  , Very interesting configuration. So I assume:  D  1. All three nodes would be "boot nodes" but normally boot from the
     network. c  D  2. Forming the cluster initially (or after a cluster failure) wouldG     require a manual boot of one node directly from it's local (soon to      be) shadow set member.  G The only disadvantage I see is that there's no automatic startup shouldc the entire cluster fail.   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison=; --                      karcher.dontspam@waisman.wisc.edu  M   ------------------------------  / Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:02:20 +0200 (MET DST)=& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesa6 Message-ID: <200206120902.LAA06335@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,   Andrew wrotes:   >>>- Where are the numbers ?a <<<e   Here are some numbers: SPECint2000r. Company			System		Result	Baseline  #	Published=                                                          CPU	 7 Compaq Computer	  AlphaServer ES45	679	621	  1	Nov-2001h Corporation	  Model 68/1000 = Sun Microsystems  Sun Blade Model 2050	610 	537 	  1	Nov-2001r
 SPECfp2000. Company			System		Result	Baseline  #	Published=                                                          CPU	d7 Compaq Computer	  AlphaServer ES45	679	621	  1	Nov-2001n Corporation	  Model 68/1000,= Sun Microsystems  Sun Blade Model 2050	610 	537 	  1	Nov-2001a   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:48:45 +0100sU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>o Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesS0 Message-ID: <ae72de$6ep$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Andrew Dodd wrote:  : > I got very confused as to who was being linked with who. > L > There is a danger of rewriting history here. The 8400 was a very succesfulK > system - we sold thousands, outselling just about everything else. At thesJ > time. That was certainly backed up by shipment figures at the time. Do IF > still have the press announcements - no. Is there any point in goingJ > backwards? I certainly don't wish to it's history. Sure you had to tradeM > slots - that wasn't uncommon. To bring that up to date how many 104 CPU 15KeB > do SUN expect to sell of the config used to get the best SPECjbbK > performance? You want some I/O as well? Well you'll have to take out some N > CPUs. Benchmarking is a game. You post the best figure you can regardless of > whether it matches reality.m >     B Yes it was a sucessfull platform, not as sucessfull as say the Sun2 E3500-6500 or the HP N series but a lot were sold.  A Did it deliver on the claims made for it by Digital and Compaq in  terms of performance ?  F Well thats a different story and the answer if measured using standardH benchmarks is no. At first release the 8400 posted the best TPC-C numberD running Tru64, but this was overtaken relatively quickly first by HPG and then by Sun and that was the end of the 8400's performance lead. We_? were then subjected to another 3 years of claims of performancea3 leadership unsupported by any published benchmarks..  B As for SPECjbb on the F15K, its and applications tier benchmark soB actually having lots of I/O isn't an issue. There is no comparison> between this kind of config and the claims made by Digital for@ example on the 8400 with respect to large in memory DBMS's which= particularly before the introduction of double density memory ? on the box would have required two 8400's to be bolted togetherlB to get enough memory and CPU's into the same chassis to be usefull, and that was before you consider I/O at all.    J > The Alpha processor is still a performance leader - in the ES45 it beatsA > just about all others. Hence it's use in all kinds of demandingiK > opportunities. GS series can be beaten on some benchmarks by other higherPN > CPU count systems - which I have always acknowledged. Compaq hasn't done anyC > really high end benchmarks for a while but I do believe, based ondH > extrapolation and customer specific benchmarks - which I would love toG > discuss but I can't, that Wildfire can match anybody else's similarly L > configured systems. At the moment the really high end is elsewhere. Others- > may feel that is a cop out - suit yourself.n >     B Again this is untrue for the GS, there are no publically available= commercial type benchmarks that show the GS to have a per CPU @ advantage over Sun and IBM. All the available comparable numbers; show the reverse to be the case. Your contention that others< systems need a higher CPU count to equal the GS boxes is not? supported by any of the high end benchmarks published by Compaq== all the results show the opposite to be the case. SAP, TPC-C,a+ Oracle Apps, TPC-H all show the same story.n  ? And even the ES45 isn't entirely in the clear, Bob's claims for	9 Java performance leadership led me to look at the SPECjbbE8 numbers for the ES45 and they are not the leaders in theB 4 CPU space and it is also 50% or less than 50% of the performance$ of a number of 8 CPU server results.     Regardso   Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  / Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:06:13 +0200 (MET DST)p& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> Subject: Re: No new Alpha salest6 Message-ID: <200206120906.LAA06347@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,  I sorry for my last mail. I pressed the wrong button. Here is the correctedo mail!d   Andrew wrotes:   >>>O Where are the numbers ?  <<<e   Here are some numbers: SPECint2000b. Company			System		Result	Baseline  #	Published=                                                          CPU	E7 Compaq Computer	  AlphaServer ES45	679	621	  1	Nov-2001r Corporation	  Model 68/1000E= Sun Microsystems  Sun Blade Model 2050	610 	537 	  1	Nov-2001E
 SPECfp2000. Company			System		Result	Baseline  #	Published=                                                          CPU	n8 Compaq Computer	  AlphaServer ES45	960 	776	  1	Nov-2001 Corporation	  Model 68/1000 > Sun Microsystems  Sun Blade Model 2050	827 	701  	  1	Nov-2001     Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:51:35 +0100 U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>	 Subject: Re: No new Alpha sales	0 Message-ID: <ae72in$6ep$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Mark Berryman wrote:   > Andrew Dodd wrote: > : >>I got very confused as to who was being linked with who. >>L >>There is a danger of rewriting history here. The 8400 was a very succesfulK >>system - we sold thousands, outselling just about everything else. At theeJ >>time. That was certainly backed up by shipment figures at the time. Do IF >>still have the press announcements - no. Is there any point in goingJ >>backwards? I certainly don't wish to it's history. Sure you had to tradeM >>slots - that wasn't uncommon. To bring that up to date how many 104 CPU 15KdB >>do SUN expect to sell of the config used to get the best SPECjbbK >>performance? You want some I/O as well? Well you'll have to take out some N >>CPUs. Benchmarking is a game. You post the best figure you can regardless of >>whether it matches reality.	 >>J >>The Alpha processor is still a performance leader - in the ES45 it beatsA >>just about all others. Hence it's use in all kinds of demanding K >>opportunities. GS series can be beaten on some benchmarks by other higheriN >>CPU count systems - which I have always acknowledged. Compaq hasn't done anyC >>really high end benchmarks for a while but I do believe, based onTH >>extrapolation and customer specific benchmarks - which I would love toG >>discuss but I can't, that Wildfire can match anybody else's similarlyoL >>configured systems. At the moment the really high end is elsewhere. Others- >>may feel that is a cop out - suit yourself.p >>6 >>We will wait and see what EV7 based systems achieve. >> > I > For the record, as a systems engineer, I have been involved in choosing I > the architecture for many different requirements.  Whenever performance E > was an issue the benchmark used was a test of the customer's actualRB > application (sometimes very extensive tests), not some publishedI > benchmark.  At least in those situations with which I was involved, SUNcH > was never the winner whereas Alpha, when it was involved, usually won. > J > Andrew Harrison seems desperate to convince the world that alpha doesn'tJ > live up to its claims.  I've never had any trouble showing that it does. >     ? What were you using the systems for. I have no doubt that Alpha ? would for example deliver better SPECfp performance on a singlea@ CPU basis than an equivalent Sun, but commercial workloads Sun'sC bnehcmark centers have long since stopped worrying about competitvei/ benchmarks where GS boxes are the other option.    Regardsr     Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:13:35 +0100DU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>	 Subject: Re: No new Alpha sales 0 Message-ID: <ae73s0$70s$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:i  * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > ; >>Thats what you should ask yourself ? Why is it that I cano= >>make the claim that Alpha isn't the performance leader that   >>the Alpha advocates say it is, >> >  > O > Andrew, you seem to focus on the performance of a SYSTEM (notably wildfires).rJ > Perhaps Wildfires were version 1.0 of a *system* architecture and didn'tL > deliver the anticipated performance. (combine this with the fact that theyI > were late, which means that when they arrived to market, they were "old	 > technology" already. >     D But the 8400 interconnect didn't deliver the anticipated performance either.	    N > However just because Wildfires don't impress you doesn't mean that the AlphaP > CPU itself isn't impressive. Similarly, just because Sparc isn't impressive asZ > a chip, it doesn't mean that Sun can't produce nice little systems that look impressive. >     ; Quite, I really don't care how fast an indevidual CPU is in ; isolation and nor do customers, they are interested in whatm= the whole system, CPU's memory subsystem, I/O OS etc deliverse> in terms of throughput. And thats where Alpha failed it simply> has not delivered the kinds of throughput that POWER based and< SPARC based systems are capable of and hasn't for some time.  ; Most of the customers I have worked for over the years havep: small, medium, large DBMS's, online and batch queries data@ transformation etc and Alphaservers do not shine in any of these- areas except at the low end with the ES40/45.a  A Andrew Dodd made the point that the best benchmarks are customersaE applications or application type benchmarks he specifically mentioneda> SAP but Oracle apps, PeopleSoft etc all have similar benchmark< tests. Alphaservers are not competitve if measured using any; of these benchmarks and if you go back and look at the 8400n it wasn't either.r  ; It seems pointless to labour the point much more since most	: people here seem unable to see what has been sitting right8 under their noses almost since the 8400 introduction but7 there never has been a case made that AlphaServers withy8 more than 4 CPU's are competitive using either synthetic5 commercial type benchmarks such as TPC-C/TPC-H or thel9 apps bnechmarks like SAP, PeopleSoft and Oracle. With thep: exception of the first TPC-C number published for the 84008 which briefly established a performance lead large Alpha7 Servers have been sold as the performance "leaders" butu3 have lacked any supporting evidence to bolster thism claim.  6 Ironically throughput much of this period the "little"6 SPARC boxes that you refer to running "Slowaris" which1 other posters call Solaris have consistently beene3 ahead of AlphaServers on the vast majority of thesek benchmarks.e  6 It never seems to have occured to some posters on this7 group, to question the wisdom foisted on them by Compaq	3 advocates which says that Sun sells more boxes than/7 Compaq because of marketing and not because the systemsi2 are actually better boxes in terms of performance.  5 The slow old SPARC its a wonder how so many customers	4 buy Suns instead of AlphaServers attitude is fine by6 me it demonstrates a complacency and lack of knowledge3 that deserves to be punished and is by erroding ISV	* support and market share for AlphaServers.     Regardsn Andrew Harrisone   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:29:27 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>	 Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesn, Message-ID: <3D073096.BC7A7001@videotron.ca>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:@ > in terms of throughput. And thats where Alpha failed it simply@ > has not delivered the kinds of throughput that POWER based and> > SPARC based systems are capable of and hasn't for some time.  H But would you agree that if you exclude the wildfire class machines, theH midrange ES and lowrange DS alphas have provided very good performance ?  J Also, one must now start to look an EV7 based "wildfires" to see if MarvelG will make a big difference in the interconnect and allow greater system(& performance relative to the CPU speed.  M Digital is expected to release a new generation of EV7 alpha chip and systemstL "soon". Will this compete against an existing generation of SUN, or will SunB also be unveiling a new generation of SPARC/systems also "soon" ?   I Do you acknowledge the possibility that EV7 based "wildfires" may provideaJ performance that SUN could not match with its current generation systems ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:10:57 GMT	1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>T Subject: Re: No new Alpha salest; Message-ID: <lTGN8.15444$R61.396@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>E  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D073096.BC7A7001@videotron.ca...* > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:B > > in terms of throughput. And thats where Alpha failed it simplyB > > has not delivered the kinds of throughput that POWER based and@ > > SPARC based systems are capable of and hasn't for some time. >eJ > But would you agree that if you exclude the wildfire class machines, theJ > midrange ES and lowrange DS alphas have provided very good performance ?  4 The sales figures would tend to support  this claim.   >gL > Also, one must now start to look an EV7 based "wildfires" to see if MarvelI > will make a big difference in the interconnect and allow greater systems( > performance relative to the CPU speed.  J Seems very likely, but in the absence of public benchmarks, there's no way of knowing for sure.   >eG > Digital is expected to release a new generation of EV7 alpha chip andh systemsrJ > "soon". Will this compete against an existing generation of SUN, or will SunhC > also be unveiling a new generation of SPARC/systems also "soon" ?c  L 2P to 8P Marvels should ship in 4FQ02. Dunno what Sun's platform plans might be.- >-K > Do you acknowledge the possibility that EV7 based "wildfires" may providesL > performance that SUN could not match with its current generation systems ?  L I can't speak for Andrew, but such a possibility is not out of the question.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2002 13:32:03 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesh+ Message-ID: <ae7igj$c32$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>m  8 In article <ipncgu837j3meh7i47c28lc1m2vuusq0hf@4ax.com>,)  jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> writes:oH |> On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:12:43 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy7 |> <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote:  |> s |> >Where are the numbers ?o |> rF |> We have many, many customers who are very happy with their 8400 and |> GS160/320 systems.y  @ Not sure how that answered the question.  I'm very happy with myC PDP-11's and VAXen.  But I wouldn't say that makes them competitivel! with anything, even a Sparc.  ;-)t   bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   d   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:44:07 +0100rU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>  Subject: Re: No new Alpha salest0 Message-ID: <ae7qo7$e6f$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rudolf Wingert wrote:e   > Hello, >  > Andrew wrotes: >  >  > Where are the numbers ?b > <<<o >  > Here are some numbers:
 > SPECint2000 0 > Company			System		Result	Baseline  #	Published? >                                                          CPU	u9 > Compaq Computer	  AlphaServer ES45	679	621	  1	Nov-2001e > Corporation	  Model 68/1000 ? > Sun Microsystems  Sun Blade Model 2050	610 	537 	  1	Nov-2001- > SPECfp20000 > Company			System		Result	Baseline  #	Published? >                                                          CPU	:9 > Compaq Computer	  AlphaServer ES45	679	621	  1	Nov-20015 > Corporation	  Model 68/1000 ? > Sun Microsystems  Sun Blade Model 2050	610 	537 	  1	Nov-2001a >  >     9 Not interested. SPECint and SPECfp are CPU benchmarks andb: quite limitted ones at that for example the maximum memory9 used for example SPECint and SPECfp never exceeds 200 MB.N  7 How about some DBMS based benchmarks, OLTP, DW/DSS appsu   benchmark results.  > I don't know many commercial customers who are that interested> in SPECint performance they are however interested in how well> the system will run their DBMS/apps and SPECint by itself does not tell them that.	   Regards1 Andrew Harrisons   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 06:12:31 GMT- From: danco@pebble.org2 Subject: Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector- Message-ID: <slrnagdqea.32l.danco@pebble.org>e  < In article <3D06BF3D.A7CEC279@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei wrote:  O > Wouldn't the linker try to resolve "Spare" and complain about a spare routine K > being non-existant ? Or does the word "spare" have special significance ?s  * It's a special keyword, not a symbol name., i.e., just plain SPARE, not SPARE=PROCEDURE.  A However, it is sometimes better to create a stub routine with thehG obsolete procedure name that either returns an error or does "nothing."n   - Danr   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:36:44 -0700S, From: "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com>2 Subject: Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector4 Message-ID: <ae7tat$4pho7$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>  , > It's a special keyword, not a symbol name.. > i.e., just plain SPARE, not SPARE=PROCEDURE. >PC > However, it is sometimes better to create a stub routine with thesI > obsolete procedure name that either returns an error or does "nothing."o >  > - Danc  J Interesting, I couldn't find SPARE in the manual but it does work.  Thanks all forl
 your help.   Jimm   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:31:34 +0200a6 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jean=2DFran=E7ois=20PI=C9RONNE?= 2 Subject: Re: Obsoleting entries in a symbol vector* Message-ID: <3D078576.CDCE90E@laposte.net>    : > . > > It's a special keyword, not a symbol name.0 > > i.e., just plain SPARE, not SPARE=PROCEDURE. > >eE > > However, it is sometimes better to create a stub routine with theaK > > obsolete procedure name that either returns an error or does "nothing."o > > 	 > > - Dann > L > Interesting, I couldn't find SPARE in the manual but it does work.  Thanks	 > all forp > your help. >  > Jim & you can find a description of SPARE inF http://www.pi-net.dyndns.org/docs/openvms073/v73/4548/4548pro_016.html  
 Jean-Franoisr   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:35:53 +0100dU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>s Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP0 Message-ID: <ae755q$7cb$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Keith Parris wrote:m   > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<ae4ors$dtc$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > & >>What is the source of your numbers ? >> > F > IDC data for Q1 2002.  You might have forgotten that HP now benefitsA > from the pre-merger Compaq market share, and Sun loses out as ap	 > result.  > @ > Worldwide Unix server market share based on factory reveunues: > HP: 34.1%i > Sun: 33.6% > IBM: 17.3%E > [And as the recent VAR Business article advised, lots of people are 3 > likely to move away from Sun to HP Unix and IBM.]s >     < But since as you know Tru64 and HP-UX are different products3 running on different platforms this is a BS number.   9 There is no evidence that ISV's or customers regard Tru64l7 or HP-UX as the same platform and about the only mergere+ benefit so far ish is a common sales force.m  : It also remains to be seen if HP does benefit, the numbers8 you quote are actually just a straight add of the HP and7 Compaq UNIX numbers, the jury is out on if this will beT: the end result, HP's own SEC submission suggests otherwise as you know, where they wrong ?h    A > I know Unix is the only game Sun can play, but when you look ata. > servers with all operating systems, you get: > HP: 31.1%d > IBM: 23.3% > Sun: 14.8% > Dell: 8.0%    9 Hang on your origional point was about UNIX not the wholee7 Server market and again all you have done is add HP and-: Compaqs numbers together. You again seem to have forgotten HP's own SEC filling.o    4 You seem to have been baffled by a good statistician  2 get a little dose of reality instead it might help2 your argument seem more plausible at the moment it isn't.   Regards  Andrew Harrisonc   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:42:03 +0100eU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>  Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP0 Message-ID: <ae75hb$7hp$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:1   > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<ae575h$ihg$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...l >  >>Main, Kerry wrote: >> >> >>>Andrew, Andrew ...  >>>  >>>  >>>C: >>>>>>So where will you be if IA-64 doesn't deliver ???<<< >>>>>>< >>You don't perhaps remember that my posting was in response9 >>to Robs FUD about Sun and SPARC. Remember I have market-8 >>share, performance and price performance numbers in my >>favour which you don't.H >> >>	 >>regardsl >>Andrew Harrisonm >> > D > anyone could boost performance numbers if they put 80,000 in a boxB > like Sun does ... let's see your single cpu againset single cpu,> > not 80,000 sparcs to 1 alpha ... then you would get creamed! >     7 Bob I know you like being a troll but try to understandh5 this tiny weeny fact, there is no evidence to suggestt7 that what you claim is true and there is plenty to show 8 that its false. On a per CPU basis as I have pointed out9 to you before with results to illustrate big SPEC servers.1 deliver better throughput than big Alpha servers.n  5 Last time I pointed this out to you you didn't managel8 a response, come up with examples to support your claims0 because at the moment all I can smell is manure.   Regardst Andrew HarrisonE   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:49:42 +0100tU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>  Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP0 Message-ID: <ae75vn$7hp$3@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:   >  >  > Bob Ceculski wrote:k > % >> Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy iB >> <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message / >> news:<ae575h$ihg$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...h >> >>> Main, Kerry wrote: >>>  >>>m >>>> Andrew, Andrew ...  >>>> >>>>< >>>>>>> So where will you be if IA-64 doesn't deliver ???<<< >>>>>>>d> >>> You don't perhaps remember that my posting was in response; >>> to Robs FUD about Sun and SPARC. Remember I have markete: >>> share, performance and price performance numbers in my >>> favour which you don't.> >>>l >>>t >>> regards  >>> Andrew Harrisoni >>>  >>E >> anyone could boost performance numbers if they put 80,000 in a boxoC >> like Sun does ... let's see your single cpu againset single cpu, ? >> not 80,000 sparcs to 1 alpha ... then you would get creamed!  >> >  > 9 > Bob I know you like being a troll but try to understand 7 > this tiny weeny fact, there is no evidence to suggests9 > that what you claim is true and there is plenty to showe: > that its false. On a per CPU basis as I have pointed out; > to you before with results to illustrate big SPEC serverse3 > deliver better throughput than big Alpha servers.o >      Whoops that should be SPARC.    7 > Last time I pointed this out to you you didn't manage : > a response, come up with examples to support your claims2 > because at the moment all I can smell is manure. > 	 > RegardsS > Andrew Harrisont >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:04:23 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>i Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP, Message-ID: <bNGN8.16081$nZ3.1955@rwcrnsc53>  # "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"a> <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message* news:ae755q$7cb$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... >@ >- > Keith Parris wrote:F >z% > > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyo> <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message, news:<ae4ors$dtc$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... > >'( > >>What is the source of your numbers ? > >> > > H > > IDC data for Q1 2002.  You might have forgotten that HP now benefitsC > > from the pre-merger Compaq market share, and Sun loses out as ao > > result.a > >eB > > Worldwide Unix server market share based on factory reveunues:
 > > HP: 34.1%t > > Sun: 33.6% > > IBM: 17.3%G > > [And as the recent VAR Business article advised, lots of people aree5 > > likely to move away from Sun to HP Unix and IBM.]t > >t >p >d> > But since as you know Tru64 and HP-UX are different products5 > running on different platforms this is a BS number.f  , That is a valid point for a Sun rep to make!   >t; > There is no evidence that ISV's or customers regard Tru64u9 > or HP-UX as the same platform and about the only merger,- > benefit so far ish is a common sales force.    Agreed.l   > < > It also remains to be seen if HP does benefit, the numbers: > you quote are actually just a straight add of the HP and9 > Compaq UNIX numbers, the jury is out on if this will bea< > the end result, HP's own SEC submission suggests otherwise! > as you know, where they wrong ?a  A One might surmise some attrition, especially from the Tru64 camp.v >t >yC > > I know Unix is the only game Sun can play, but when you look ata0 > > servers with all operating systems, you get:
 > > HP: 31.1%e > > IBM: 23.3% > > Sun: 14.8% > > Dell: 8.0% >  >r; > Hang on your origional point was about UNIX not the wholea9 > Server market and again all you have done is add HP andl< > Compaqs numbers together. You again seem to have forgotten > HP's own SEC filling.p >e >r6 > You seem to have been baffled by a good statistician >a4 > get a little dose of reality instead it might help4 > your argument seem more plausible at the moment it > isn't. >e  ; I think we'll all benefit from 20-20 hindsight on this one!g   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:52:50 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>s Subject: Re: Open Letter to HPH Message-ID: <CuHN8.257540$ah_.6822@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D06A8F0.88CC5CC6@videotron.ca... > Carl Perkins wrote: K > > I think the point was missed. Even if the Itanium-3 is the fastest chipaK > > available at the time, HP will no longer have a performance edge simplyiE > > because they will not be the only company selling Itanium-3 basedr systems. >lF > But if IA64 doesn't performs that well, then HP will be the only one sellingl > systems based on it.  K I guess at that point everyone will be bashing HP for using a 'proprietary'n chip.e  ? I think Walter was right....better to have stuck with printing.w   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 08:42:04 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)o Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206120742.25c43c2f@posting.google.com>C   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<ae755q$7cb$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...eI > Hang on your origional point was about UNIX not the whole Server markets  B Unix workstations generate only a small amount of revenue comparedB with servers.  That's why Sun had to move from being a workstationC vendor in the late '80s to making most of its money selling serversa today.  D But it's a moot point because I was just providing some hard data in! response to your contention that:g  P > If Sun maintains higher volumes than HP, then Sun will be in a better position# > to keep Sparc alive than HP will.a  E ALL the operating systems HP sells will contribute to IA-64 volumes. eB SPARC only runs Unix.  And Sun's total revenues are only about 1/4$ those of The New HP ($18B vs. $78B).: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 09:15:29 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)r Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206120815.1155e8c3@posting.google.com>i  ` JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3D068E67.D26A412@videotron.ca>... > Keith Parris wrote:dB > > Worldwide Unix server market share based on factory reveunues:
 > > HP: 34.1%u > > Sun: 33.6% > > IBM: 17.3% > G > How different would those ranking be if it were based on sales to end21 > customers who actually pay for their hardware ?n  @ JF, I don't understand how you interpreted this -- sorry.  TheseA market share rankings are based on "Worldwide Unix Server FactorypD Revenue", which is just IDC's way of saying this is the total dollarE value paid for the Unix servers sold all around the world for a giveno/ vendor.  So it does include sales to end users. : ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 11:25:56 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)n Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP3 Message-ID: <l7io3HPdAddz@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <cf15391e.0206120742.25c43c2f@posting.google.com>, keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:  > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<ae755q$7cb$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>... J >> Hang on your origional point was about UNIX not the whole Server market > D > Unix workstations generate only a small amount of revenue comparedD > with servers.  That's why Sun had to move from being a workstationE > vendor in the late '80s to making most of its money selling servers" > today. > F > But it's a moot point because I was just providing some hard data in# > response to your contention that:e > Q >> If Sun maintains higher volumes than HP, then Sun will be in a better positionm$ >> to keep Sparc alive than HP will. >   F 	This is heading in the other direction noticeably. SPARC volumes willE 	and are declining bigtime as Sun workstation shrinks off to nothing.G  , http://www.eet.com/sys/news/OEG20020610S0067  2 Cadence expects shift to Intel-based Linux systems  N The shift is being driven by hardware price/performance, Silver said. "The SunK boxes cost $10,000 and run at 1 GHz or less, while the PC workstations cost2L $2,000 and run at 2-to-3 GHz. You just can't get that performance out of the RISC-based systems," he said.     G > ALL the operating systems HP sells will contribute to IA-64 volumes.  D > SPARC only runs Unix.  And Sun's total revenues are only about 1/4& > those of The New HP ($18B vs. $78B).  A 	Those were last year's numbers.  Sun is the incredibly shrinkingt1 	company.  The "Novell of the 2000s" I would say.t  $ http://biz.yahoo.com/z/a/s/sunw.html  @ 	Year ago sales ending June 2001 of $18.2 billion.  Consensus of@ 	$12.4 billion June 2002.  An amazing growth of -32.2% in sales.  A 	Prognostication.... Sun will hop on the IA64 bandwagon.  BecausesA 	they are getting on late, they get little or no incentive.  TheyuD 	have to move very quickly as their strength is ebbing away rapidly.  ( 	Can't hide from the financials, can we?  @ 	x86-64 or whatever it is called?  AMD has no infrastructure andB 	dumping of P4 will ensure AMD makes no money this year.  Go ahead! 	and lash yourself to AMD , ouch.r  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/11060201.htm   # Intel Pentium 4 spot prices plummetu  M Activity in the grey market always puts pressure on distributors, who try and L maintain "official" prices from Intel and so are undermined by quantities of$ CPUs swilling around in the channel.    = 	Maybe nobody makes money in IA32 this year.  But that's okay A 	as far as Intel is concerned.  Much deeper pockets and much more 	 	diverse.    				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:02:31 GMTv* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Open Letter to HPB Message-ID: <H8LN8.215898$%o.19177934@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message& news:bNGN8.16081$nZ3.1955@rwcrnsc53... >p% > "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" @ > <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message, > news:ae755q$7cb$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com...   ...c  > > > It also remains to be seen if HP does benefit, the numbers< > > you quote are actually just a straight add of the HP and; > > Compaq UNIX numbers, the jury is out on if this will bea> > > the end result, HP's own SEC submission suggests otherwise# > > as you know, where they wrong ?m >aC > One might surmise some attrition, especially from the Tru64 camp.e  L If Tru64's Q1 market share fell to about 7% (as the numbers quoted appear toK reflect) there's *already* been a great deal of attrition.  I don't have ataG hand its previous figures, but IIRC a year or more ago it held over 10%rD market share and was said to be increasing it at a pretty good rate.   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 10:14:58 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206120914.589dc531@posting.google.com>    Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<ae75hb$7hp$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...n > >> > > F > > anyone could boost performance numbers if they put 80,000 in a boxD > > like Sun does ... let's see your single cpu againset single cpu,@ > > not 80,000 sparcs to 1 alpha ... then you would get creamed! > >  > 9 > Bob I know you like being a troll but try to understande7 > this tiny weeny fact, there is no evidence to suggeste9 > that what you claim is true and there is plenty to show.: > that its false. On a per CPU basis as I have pointed out; > to you before with results to illustrate big SPEC servers 3 > deliver better throughput than big Alpha servers.j > 7 > Last time I pointed this out to you you didn't manage3: > a response, come up with examples to support your claims2 > because at the moment all I can smell is manure. > 	 > RegardsR > Andrew Harrison   A I am not a troll, but a realist ... and you want I/O, you will be C inundated in it when EV7 hits ... I think you know it and Sun knowsn it, and you are both scared!   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:16:50 GMTs* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Open Letter to HPC Message-ID: <6mLN8.216474$Oa1.20252668@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>.  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:l7io3HPdAddz@eisner.encompasserve.org...n   ...r  L > The shift is being driven by hardware price/performance, Silver said. "The SunOH > boxes cost $10,000 and run at 1 GHz or less, while the PC workstations costJ > $2,000 and run at 2-to-3 GHz. You just can't get that performance out of thet > RISC-based systems," he said.w  K Of course, you won't be able to get IA32-competitive price *or* performancemL out of Itanic systems either - including McKinley and its later mini-clones.@ And if you need 64-bit support (let alone a good mixed 32/64-bitD environment) the price/performance sweet spot will unquestionably beK Hammer - which means that Intel will have to release Yamhill to counter it,h' further undermining Itanic's viability.t  I I.e., your contentions that poor li'l AMD can't mount an effective attack I are, as usual, just hot air.  But the evidence will be clear soon enough.d   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:12:20 GMTo3 From: skidmore@alternate-venue.org (Barry Skidmore) # Subject: Re: OpenVMS Mailing Lists?r2 Message-ID: <88FN8.246$yK6.55754@news1.iquest.net>  2 >>I am looking for a general OpenVMS mailing list. >c0 >Why a mailing list and not a USENET newsgroup ? >   G I already subscribe to this newsgroup, so I am looking for something ins addition to comp.os.vms.# -----------------------------------  Barry Skidmore# skidmore at alternate-venue dot orgw  Hobbyist MicroVAX 3100-40 System Running OpenVMS 7.2 # -----------------------------------    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:37:15 +0400 : From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <laishev--@--smtp--deltatel--ru># Subject: Re: OpenVMS Mailing Lists?r3 Message-ID: <3D07245B.8090809@--smtp--deltatel--ru>i  	 Hi Barry, G 	take a look to VMS FAQ, there is a number of VMS-related mail lists...r   Barry Skidmore wrote:e3 >>>I am looking for a general OpenVMS mailing list.t >>1 >>Why a mailing list and not a USENET newsgroup ?- >> >  > I > I already subscribe to this newsgroup, so I am looking for something in  > addition to comp.os.vms.% > -----------------------------------: > Barry Skidmore% > skidmore at alternate-venue dot orgn" > Hobbyist MicroVAX 3100-40 System > Running OpenVMS 7.2 % > -----------------------------------o >      -- @ Cheers, Ruslan.nD +---------------------pure personal opinion------------------------+B     Mobile(s): +7 (901) 971-3222 (NMT), +7 (901) 623-5025 (IMT-MC)B     TKD (WTF) in Russia, St.-Petersburg - www.TaeKwonDo-WTF.SPb.RU<       http://starlet.deltatel.ru/~laishev/public_pgp_key.txt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:38:24 +0100a( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>P Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)) Message-ID: <3D071690.EFC695BF@127.0.0.1>,   Mark Berryman wrote: > J > LAT is no more secure than telnet.  It has all the same limitations from > a security point of view.e  H After a little more research, yes this is correct. I incorrectly thought> that it was encrypted, seems there is *room* for it, but never implemented.  tJ > DECnet, on the other hand, is more secure than any in-the-clear IP basedG > protocol as long as the hosts engaging in DECnet communications trust.A > each other.  The reason behind this is straightforward:  DECnet J > identifies both the host and the user in a connection, IP protocols only > identify the host. > J > Spoofing a DECnet session is also harder to do than an IP session but itJ > is not impossible, especially if the two hosts are both on the same LAN.  D Ah, now we're in the unknown territory. I'm trying to find somethingH that definitely states if the authentication of users between two native DECNet hosts is protected.  E I seem to recall when using DECNet between PDP (RSTS/E) and VMS, thate? there were password length restrictions but also a reference to. encryption. Or did I dream it?   --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com>   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:58:40 +0000 (UTC)o* From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.cc.jyu.fi>P Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading), Message-ID: <ae760g$ec5$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>  H Hi Kerry, I'm pleased to see that you have interest in needs of schools.  & Main, Kerry <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote: > Osmo -  G >>>> You see, if some of those little servers now crash, it's not a bigr
 > deal.<<<  J > Today perhaps. I also know that schools are beginning (some have always)E > demanded high availability for selected application area's, becausemD > there is always a huge amount of stress when servers go down rightG > around exam time, when big assignements are due, or when registrationw# > for a new session is in progress.e  G High availability is important, and OpenVMS has features which would be B very usable here, but when OpenVMS is seen as fossil, we must use I unix/linux. (We get the same availability with more work and less money.)    > As to the comment - E >>>> But if we integrate to a few big systems, they must have doublede< > components etc. to get same service availability level.<<<  2 > Perhaps this does not apply to your environment,  D It does, in some degree. Problem is that we don't have feedback fromJ decisions in clear numbers (money). Should have measure of productivity or
 something.   > but one of the hottestG > topics for almost all med-large corp's today is IT Consolidation - one > all platforms. e   > Big drivers for this are:sA > - lower overall costs. A few big systems properly config'ed canaB > typically be maintained by less staff (number 1 IT cost for mostD > companies). Admittably, these centralized staff are typically more2 > senior experienced and higher trained resources.  I Staff is number 1 cost in our computer center too and we have tendency tovC forget staff costs (especially savings), when planning new systems.e  I > - being much more proactive - big driver is to fix problems BEFORE theye > impact the business. aC > - increase service levels e.g. availability, performance. Yes, IT J > Consolidation does require much more focus on availability features likeD > clustering - hence the requirement for more senior and experienced > resources.C > - increased security. Maintaining access to 10 or less servers isaA > typically much easier to maintain than a hundred. (yes, you can F > implement distributed security features like kerberos, but you stillJ > need to maintain  each system so that an individual system does not have > some back door)mD > - business continuity (BC) and disaster recovery (DR). Fire in theH > datacenter is good example where the rest of the facility is fine, butI > the computer room is gone. Now what? Since 9/11, this is a huge concern I > by all med-large businesses. Implementing BC and DR is much easier withw > fewer systems than many.  I >>>>> As a school we must have systems, which are common in the world.<<<n  A > Do you mean like teaching Java on a high availability cluster? v  G I was talking about OS's. We must have linux/unix-systems, we must have I windows (and centralized systems to support windows) etc. but no need foro VMS, MVS, OS1100, Tandem...vK I guess Java and C,C++ are found in most of common OS's. I don't know much hG of computer science teaching, do they need Java in special environment.   I > While there are still some issues with Java, it might be interesting to  > note the following trends:  J > http://news.com.com/2009-1001-868454.html?tag=dd.ne.dtx.nl-sty.0 (March, > 2002) J > "Although recent studies show that older technologies are still the mainG > languages used by software developers, Java is beginning to close theo > gap."   H > "And market research firm Evans Data has reported that more people areD > using Java while the number of C and C++ developers is declining."  D > "That trend is reflected in academia as well. At the MassachusettsB > Institute of Technology, the computer science department in 1997J > replaced Microsoft's C++ with Java as the primary software language that@ > students are required to learn. This spring, the University ofB > California at Berkeley offered 25 Java courses and only seven on > Microsoft languages.  C > "In my mind, Java is rapidly going to displace all the languages,tH > particularly C++," MIT associate professor Daniel Jackson said, notingG > that undergraduate students are increasingly teaching themselves some-I > Java even before attending his classes. In two years, the College BoardtJ > will switch from C++ to Java for the computer science advanced placementF > tests that high school students take to get credit for college-level > courses."   H >>>> If we had to concentrate to one OS.......the hardest thing would be( > to get rid of Windows. It's so sad.<<<  F > I would suggest that moving to one OS is almost always NOT the right > solution.   F There may be some truth in that, but I'd blame mostly MS and it's goodF partners like you for that. I stronly disagree with digital/Compaq/HP,J when you try to force us using Windows. (By offering even VMS documents inB MS-formats, by declaring VMS as server only OS, by advertising and suggesting to use Windows ...)  = If that doesn't stop, I won't buy anything from you any more!e  F > However, if indeed the school does decide to centralize, because theD > number of users will be much higher, then the centralized platformF > absolutely will require much higher RASS (reliability, availability,H > scalability and security) than the current environment. This gets evenH > more critical when the school decides to start offering online courses0 > from remote students from just about anywhere.  C I didn't even think about centralizing in the whole university. We OK (computing center) have already lost the power. Only network is completely mF in our hands. For online courses we offer the needed net capacity and J participate in the projects, but faculties, departments and such do their E own special systems. There I don't see so much problem if Windows or : whatever OS is used.  , ---- rest of orig. message deleted----------   Osmo   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:48:02 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukP Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)+ Message-ID: <ae78t2$ef3$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   a In article <83pcguopehhq2f4oe3f9ijr4dn1gbqt405@4ax.com>, jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> writes: , >On 7 Jun 2002 22:39:20 GMT, "Zane H. Healy"$ ><healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote: >-0 >>JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote: >>> re: SSHS >>P >>> Ok, just a sanity check here. Is unencrypted telnet really that dangerous in >>> terms of risk ?n >>L >>A few years ago I was playing around with some network monitoring softwareN >>(publically available software for Linux) on my home network.  I was rather O >>shocked to find that I could basically point it at one packet, and from then nP >>on I could see anything that was typed/displayed in a specific Telnet session. >>I >>So, yes, it really is that dangerous.  Unfortunatly a lot of people areg= >>still forced to use Telnet.  IIRC, another problem is POP3.n >>	 >>			Zane  >eG >Sure, but rather than have the CPU on each end process the encryption, D >I thought IP/SEC was a better solution.  Offload all that work onto5 >something small, simple, and almost management-free.  >   I Yes VPNs are a solution. However they either require a box at each end tonN handle the tunnel which is extra cost and also leaves a little gap at each endN where there is unencrypted traffic. Or you don't offload the CPU and have the M VPN software running on the systems themselves (almost required on the clientaO side when using lots of widespread clients). In which case you need to have thetJ VPN software you are using available and running on those machines you areJ going to use - which again is generally another cost. Can you setup a VPN O directly from a VMS box using IPSEC or any other VPN using any of the availablet TCPIP stacks ?  M VPNs may also not work well with other networking components (IPSEC has majorsH problems with NAT whereas SSH has no such problems). SSH is pretty much M available for every system and is generally free. It seems to be pretty much r# the defacto standard at the moment.HG VPNs seem to work best when you need a dedicated link between groups ofi machines at two remote sites."  e
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:51:05 +0000 (UTC)b From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukP Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)+ Message-ID: <ae792p$ef3$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   [ In article <3D0666D0.3E8206D@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  >"Main, Kerry" wrote: H >> topics for almost all med-large corp's today is IT Consolidation - on >> all platforms.aB >> - lower overall costs. A few big systems properly config'ed canC >> typically be maintained by less staff (number 1 IT cost for most1 >> companies). >e >eN >The companies that chose to go Microsoft all-the-way did so partly because ofI >ease of finding staff with experience in windows. Consolidation would gooS >against that philosophy if it means having to find specialized, experienced staff.b  N It might be easier to find Microsoft experienced staff (Though if your talkingM about good staff that might be debatable) however you need lots more of them.-  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:10:27 -0700D, From: "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Process Locks4 Message-ID: <ae7kol$4mk4b$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>  % Try this:  sda> show lock/block/briefA  G You will be looking for an exec mode lock so ignore all the kernel modeu	 ones.  OrtL even better, if you can find the "stuck" process, that is the one waiting on	 the lock, E then sda> show proc/lock will be useful because it always starts withj waiting locks.  F Then sda> show res/lock=lckid of that lock will show what lock has the resourceJ granted, then sda> show lock lckid to get the pid of the blocking process.
 (in a clusternL this gets more fun, there is a dsnlink article on tracing locks in clusters)   JimT  4 "Steven Thompson" <steven@omga.biz> wrote in message< news:ae5mhc$hce$1@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net...
 > Hi group > J > I suspect that a new problem that has started on my Alpha Cluster is due toE > a lock between 2 (or more) competeing processes. It's a classic VMSoJ > environment, programmes written in VMS/Basic using RMS indexed files for > data storage > H > So, for now I would appreciate some help on using ANALYZE /SYSTEM (Who > wouldn't?) >21 > So I know how to do a SHOW PROCESS /LOCK /BRIEFr >oC > but there are HUNDREDs of locks in each of the suspect processes.tF > Is this the right approach? If so how do I get round the size of the
 > problem? >d > Thanks >m > Steven >i >h   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 09:28:43 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)a Subject: Re: Process Locks= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206120828.69790e0c@posting.google.com>   s "Steven Thompson" <steven@omga.biz> wrote in message news:<ae5mhc$hce$1@nsnmrro2-gest.nuria.telefonica-data.net>...eM > I suspect that a new problem that has started on my Alpha Cluster is due toy1 > a lock between 2 (or more) competing processes.r  E I concur with the other poster that DECamds (or Availability Manager) B is the easiest way to resolve the problem.  But if you're game forC learning more about how the VMS Lock Manager works, see the articlea; "How To Trace A Hung Lock Request On A Clustered System" atmU http://www.compaq.com/support/asktima/operating_systems/0092B5E5-EEF30D00-1C0029.html7: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 01:32:04 -0700/ From: robert.harrison@ch.abb.com (Rob Harrison)6 Subject: Quorum disk hangn= Message-ID: <df79e57d.0206120032.1b8f4ff8@posting.google.com>e  ( Hi all, I wonder if someone can help me.  D I'm trying to support a customer in the Middle East who has an Alpha> cluster. He rebooted one node and suddenly started getting the following messages:H  + %CNXMAN Using remote acces for quorum disk%2 ...a+ %CNXMAN Using local access for quorum disk%  ...r0 %CNXMAN Established "connection" to quorum disk%   then   %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 10:55:56%e" Message from user SYSTEM on HIHM28 STARTUP, Mounting QUORUM DISKi   then   %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 11:00:02% - %CSP-W-QDNOTMNT, please mount the quorum diske  " which is repeated every 5 minutes.  C The other node is running OK and when he does a sho dev he sees the-$ Quorum disk on that node is mounted.  D He is refusing to reboot the other node as he is scared that he will lose the entire system.s  E Does anyone have any idea how to kick this beast into life. I suspect > that a simple cluster reboot will do the trick but I need some$ ammunition to convince the customer.   Thanks,1   Rob0   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:43:18 +0100j( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Quorum disk hangi) Message-ID: <3D0717B6.B1CA0878@127.0.0.1>O   Rob Harrison wrote:c > * > Hi all, I wonder if someone can help me. > F > I'm trying to support a customer in the Middle East who has an Alpha@ > cluster. He rebooted one node and suddenly started getting the > following messages:k > - > %CNXMAN Using remote acces for quorum disk%A > ...4- > %CNXMAN Using local access for quorum disk%- > ...-2 > %CNXMAN Established "connection" to quorum disk% >  > then >  > %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 10:55:56%s$ > Message from user SYSTEM on HIHM28 > STARTUP, Mounting QUORUM DISKM >  > then >  > %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 11:00:02%-/ > %CSP-W-QDNOTMNT, please mount the quorum diskt > $ > which is repeated every 5 minutes. > E > The other node is running OK and when he does a sho dev he sees thep& > Quorum disk on that node is mounted. > F > He is refusing to reboot the other node as he is scared that he will > lose the entire system.i > G > Does anyone have any idea how to kick this beast into life. I suspect-@ > that a simple cluster reboot will do the trick but I need some& > ammunition to convince the customer.  D You say it's MOUNTed, is that MOUNT or MOuNT/SYSTEM or MOUNT/CLUSTER
 (better) ?  C Because it is saying using local access, it implies that there is a-? direct path for this system to the Qdisk, so things look right.2   -- M( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comP   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 09:07:20 -0700/ From: robert.harrison@ch.abb.com (Rob Harrison)u Subject: Re: Quorum disk hangi= Message-ID: <df79e57d.0206120807.1c7cebe6@posting.google.com>D  Y Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:<3D0717B6.B1CA0878@127.0.0.1>..., > Rob Harrison wrote:: > > , > > Hi all, I wonder if someone can help me. > > H > > I'm trying to support a customer in the Middle East who has an AlphaB > > cluster. He rebooted one node and suddenly started getting the > > following messages:  > > / > > %CNXMAN Using remote acces for quorum disk%n > > ...r/ > > %CNXMAN Using local access for quorum disk%s > > ...t4 > > %CNXMAN Established "connection" to quorum disk% > >  > > then > >  > > %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 10:55:56%s& > > Message from user SYSTEM on HIHM28! > > STARTUP, Mounting QUORUM DISKe > >  > > then > >  > > %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 11:00:02%p1 > > %CSP-W-QDNOTMNT, please mount the quorum diskn > > & > > which is repeated every 5 minutes. > > G > > The other node is running OK and when he does a sho dev he sees then( > > Quorum disk on that node is mounted. > > H > > He is refusing to reboot the other node as he is scared that he will > > lose the entire system.m > > I > > Does anyone have any idea how to kick this beast into life. I suspectwB > > that a simple cluster reboot will do the trick but I need some( > > ammunition to convince the customer. > F > You say it's MOUNTed, is that MOUNT or MOuNT/SYSTEM or MOUNT/CLUSTER > (better) ? > E > Because it is saying using local access, it implies that there is auA > direct path for this system to the Qdisk, so things look right.e  C The customer did a sho/dev on the working node (he has no access toK the other one) and got this:   >$sho dev dsF >Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free >Trans >MntF >Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks Count  >Cnt? >DSA0:                   Mounted              0  SHADOWDISK    y 1234400a >132 >2? >$1$DKA0:      (HIHM28)  Mounted              0  (remote mount)s >1@ >$1$DKA100:    (HIHM29)  Mounted              0  AXPVMSSYS29     869241 >276 >1/ >$1$DKA200:    (HIHM28)  Online               0oB >$1$DKA300:    (HIHM29)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA0:)/ >$1$DKA400:    (HIHM28)  Online               0a/ >$1$DKA500:    (HIHM29)  Online wrtlck        0m? >$1$DKB200:    (HIHM29)  Mounted              0  QUORUMDISK    k 1786965  >1 >2/ >$1$DVA0:      (HIHM29)  Online               0a  > HIHM28 is the one that's misbehaving, HIHM29 is the one that's working.   Robv   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 08:59:37 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)m= Subject: Request for path balancing (Was: Re: Carly was here)s3 Message-ID: <V+Sg8u4TTcKV@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  o In article <27vN8.207307$%o.18579187@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  >    > J > Unfortunately, the only corporation in any reasonable position to createK > such a system would be VMS's owner.  Lots of luck.  And while open source N > systems will undoubtedly over time acquire some of VMS's strengths, the UnixL > I/O model has always resisted full-blown support for asynchrony, so unlessN > some non-Unix-like open-source system should appear I wouldn't hold out much > hope in that direction.l >   # 	Lacking asynchronous support, yep.   < 	Do you use AIO or multiple db_writers in an AIX environment9 	with Oracle?  There is a school of thought that multiplel" 	db_writers works better than AIO.  5 	PowerPath and/or SecurePath?  Sure, for broken OSes.u  A 	You can layer features on an OS I suppose.  Fortunately, for VMSp= 	path switching comes tacitly, naturally.  The only advantagee< 	of a PowerPath/SecurePath is load balancing.  So maybe thatF 	is a future SET DEVICE enhancement?  Meaning via a SET DEVICE setting= 	we can auto-switch if I/O reaches a pre-set threshold and/ors 	"load"?  ! NODE1> show device/multipath/page   > Device                  Device           Error  Paths  Current=  Name                   Status           Count Avl/Tot   pathrO $1$DGA0:       (NODE1)  Online               0   3/ 3  PGA0.5006-0482-BFD2-88C21O $1$DGA1:       (NODE1)  ShadowSetMember      0   3/ 3  PGB0.5006-0482-BFD2-88D2 O $1$DGA2:       (NODE1)  ShadowSetMember      0   3/ 3  PGA0.5006-0482-BFD2-88C2eO $1$DGA3:       (NODE1)  Mounted              0   3/ 3  PGA0.5006-0482-BFD2-88C2oO $1$DGA4:       (NODE1)  ShadowSetMember      1   3/ 3  PGB0.5006-0482-BFD2-88D2uO $1$DGA5:       (NODE1)  ShadowSetMember      0   3/ 3  PGB0.5006-0482-BFD2-88D2e   	[snip]n  < 	$ set device $1$dga5: /AUTOSWTCH   ! Proposed new qualifier  : 	I could see how such an algorithm could be challenging or7 	you could get path ping-pong.  So maybe a good deal ofn> 	"intelligence" or flexibility to make things jussstttt right!  > 	Finally, one wonders if given a few more layers some of these? 	broken OSes won't just collapse or go "poof."  Oh the stories.      				Robt    M "Mathematical formulizers wish to treat matters of intuition mathematically, sF  and make themselves ridiculous . . .  The mind . . . does it tacitly,9  naturally, and without technical rules."       -- Pascalr   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 06:01:51 GMTc* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>8 Subject: Re: RMS count of records matching alternate keyB Message-ID: <jtBN8.137460$4i.12964647@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D06DEEE.D59377D7@videotron.ca... > Carl Perkins wrote:a > > From rabdef.h: > >rF > >         unsigned int rab$l_dct;         /* duplicates count on key accessed on alternate key */ >iL > Thanks. will definitely look into this. ALL-IN-1 has had this for ages, so it+ > must have been there for quite some time.e  G My recollection is that the count is an approximate one (i.e., probablygH close but not guaranteed to reflect how many records actually exist withE that key value - may well have been put in for query optimizations byo* Datatrieve).  If that's good enough, fine.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:29:17 +0100 4 From: "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk>8 Subject: Re: RMS count of records matching alternate keyA Message-ID: <1023877759.8740.0.nnrp-12.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk>I  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messageh< news:jtBN8.137460$4i.12964647@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >o< > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message( > news:3D06DEEE.D59377D7@videotron.ca... > > Carl Perkins wrote:g > > > From rabdef.h: > > > H > > >         unsigned int rab$l_dct;         /* duplicates count on key > accessed on alternate key */ > >oK > > Thanks. will definitely look into this. ALL-IN-1 has had this for ages,t so > it- > > must have been there for quite some time.A >(I > My recollection is that the count is an approximate one (i.e., probablyvJ > close but not guaranteed to reflect how many records actually exist withG > that key value - may well have been put in for query optimizations by , > Datatrieve).  If that's good enough, fine.  L Almost certainly setting fast_delete when deleting would break it, similarlyK not using RMS would obviously break it. If it works at all I'd expect it ton be reliable aside from that.H I've checked for the return status rms$_dup_ok (I think) in the past, to distinguish 1/many.n   Chris    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:28:49 GMTm* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>8 Subject: Re: RMS count of records matching alternate keyC Message-ID: <kxLN8.216527$Oa1.20257262@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>o  ? "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk> wrote in messageD; news:1023877759.8740.0.nnrp-12.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk...q >o7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagec> > news:jtBN8.137460$4i.12964647@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...   ...h  K > > My recollection is that the count is an approximate one (i.e., probably L > > close but not guaranteed to reflect how many records actually exist withI > > that key value - may well have been put in for query optimizations byy. > > Datatrieve).  If that's good enough, fine. >>D > Almost certainly setting fast_delete when deleting would break it,	 similarlyh) > not using RMS would obviously break it.i  I Not using RMS to process an indexed file would tend to break a great manys	 things...   $  If it works at all I'd expect it to > be reliable aside from that.  I Not in the presence of, e.g., power failures.  If more than one bucket isrL present in the duplicate chain there's no way (in the absence of journaling)J for RMS to reliably update the count and the bucket containing the deletedJ record simultaneously.  For that matter, there's no way (in the absence ofF journaling) for RMS to reliably update the user data record itself (to> change the key value) and the SIDR entry (let alone the count)J simultaneously:  scanning the duplicates using $GET sequential *will* pickH up such discrepancies, whereas a simple count (or even scanning the SIDR$ buckets to generate a count) cannot.  J > I've checked for the return status rms$_dup_ok (I think) in the past, to > distinguish 1/many.e  I Different issue:  if there are no duplicates, this can be determined from-L inspection of the SIDR bucket containing the record found - no count or scan is required.   - bill   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:17:43 +0100 (MET)k9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>r' Subject: rooted devices and /TRANS=CONCr; Message-ID: <01KIUO0CNSMI96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>i  I A while back I mentioned that a rooted device cannot be defined in terms oI of another rooted device.  Actually, it seems that any concealed logical sG name cannot be defined in terms of another concealed logical name (and eA work properly---restricting ourselves to disk names here).  With  B /TRAN=TERM I can see the reason for this, but why with /TRAN=CONC?  H As one can see reading the other thread (DEFINE/TRAN=TERM), either many E folks are confusing the effects of TERM and CONC or each of these at tH least in some situations also has some effects normally produced by the  other.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:51:10 +0200a From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>$ Subject: Re: SCSI- Fatal Drive Error$ Message-ID: <3D06E14E.30601@home.nl>  P VMS checks the SCSI features of a SCSI disk before it will accept it as a valid N device. Most likely the response VMS gets from your solid state disk does not G satisfy the requirements of the SCSI driver, hence the error log entry.o  @ Maybe you can find out what is wrong with anal /system, and thenM SDA>show device dkxxx. Compare the information of the disks you have running p with the solid state disk.       Phil wrote:oF > We are trying to install an Ultra Wide, 9 Gig, Solid State Disk fromH > BitMicro into a StorageWorks DS-BA356 cabinet.  The drive is seen fromH > the console of a VAX 4106, OpenVMS 7.2, but cannot be Initialized from > VMS. > 1 > The error is %INIT-F-MEDOFL, medium is offline.L > : > The error log indicates "Invalid inquiry data received". > 	 > Thanks,h > Phil   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 10:33:51 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)6 Subject: Sun is on the way out!  Only HP and IBM left!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206120933.41610cfb@posting.google.com>   7 I didn't say it, the Inquirer does ... guess we will'nt 9 have poor Andrew around here anymore making bogus claims!e* No wonder he is anxious to trash Alpha ...    ( Sun's route to market in total disarray   , VARs in white VANs with red crosses on side & By Mike Magee, 12/06/2002 15:31:38 BST  C WHILE LOADS OF OLD Sun timers are quietly pushing off to spend moresB time with their family, watch humming birds sip nectar or fish forB dead trout like Intel Craig Barrett does, it seems that the firm's2 value added reseller channel is in total disarray.D That certainly appears to be the message US distributor/dealer titleE Var Business is transmitting  with a scathing attack on the state ofo Sun's VAR business.a  D But we wonder if HPQ's FUDmeisters have been busy behind the scenes.? Because its disties are probably none too happy about its plansD	 either...k  F The newspaper claims that many of Sun's resellers are teetering on theF edge of bankruptcy or shutting up shop while spinners at the firm tell: the world that Sun is separating the wheat from the chaff.  ? CRN compares Sun to Nero, bashing out some Pagannini while Romer ignites.  C It even recommends that people selling Sun kit today should dump itn' immediately and move to other products.e  E Some of the problems include no marketing help for either big serversoB or for Cobalt products, meaning that if the big system integratorsA want to promote Sun products they have to dig deep into their owni pockets.  C Needless to say, the opponents  and that includes the bigger HP ofnB course, are making hay while the Sun doesn't shine, and we presumeB that behind the scenes adversary Intel is also stoking the FUDDish fuel.a  E In fact, we detect the hand of HPQ's competitive marketing departmentw trying to hide its own plans.r  C A story posted on EB News today outlines the steps HPQ is taking to-E cut costs - and those including squeezing suppliers and disties until< the pips, well, squeak.-  D Yes - distributors can probably forget all about huge coop marketingE funds from the New Age P as well, as it strives to compete with Dell, C which started off with low costs and still manages to cut them evena more.o  A The big worry here is that if Sun really has messed up on its VARhC channel so badly, and if it can't fix the problems, we might end updC with a duopoly where users have got the choice between HPQ and IBM.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:47:29 GMTk* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: Sun is on the way out!  Only HP and IBM left!B Message-ID: <ROLN8.195672$%y.18848494@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messages7 news:d7791aa1.0206120933.41610cfb@posting.google.com...u9 > I didn't say it, the Inquirer does ... guess we will'nt ; > have poor Andrew around here anymore making bogus claims!i, > No wonder he is anxious to trash Alpha ...  K Learn to read, Bob.  The Inquirer also speculates that HP covertly used theoH quoted article to spread FUD:  if you believe the one, you really should believe the other.  K Responses to the *original* article (quoted by the Inquirer) ran, as usual,-G both pro and con in terms of its credibility.  If you wish to disparage L those who felt Sun *isn't* in trouble as having their heads firmly buried inJ the sand, then you should be *at least* as willing to admit the same about) those who believe VMS isn't in trouble...t   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:28:14 GMTe: From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@paradigm-shift.biz>& Subject: Re: SYSMAN default parameters, Message-ID: <3d070665_1@news.iprimus.com.au>   IIRC it is possible.   $ mc sysgenX use defaulte set mumble....
 write default   ' I haven't tried this for a while though6  : "Zoltan Roundtree" <zroundtree@oasys.com> wrote in message7 news:bf1b7500.0206110552.4e04f77f@posting.google.com...2: > zroundtree@oasys.com (Zoltan Roundtree) wrote in message9 news:<bf1b7500.0206101406.62d56cc9@posting.google.com>... F > > Is it possible to modify the sysman/sysgen parameters? ie> ijoblim >oH > The question should be: Is it possible to modify the DEFAULT params of > sysman/sysgen?   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2002 16:29:03 GMT2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)0 Subject: Re: SYSMAN default parameters - REVISED* Message-ID: <ae7ssf$dot$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  m In article <bf1b7500.0206101409.218d4bc6@posting.google.com>, zroundtree@oasys.com (Zoltan Roundtree) writes:c; :Is it possible to modify the DEFAULT sysman/sysgen params?s     No.  Why?i  J   The default parameter settings are a compromise, and are intended solelyJ   to get enough of OpenVMS up and running to invoke AUTOGEN -- again, the K   default parameter values are a compromise and are intended to permit any RM   platform supported by OpenVMS to bootstrap at least far enough to get into c
   AUTOGEN.   	--s  K   Pedants may well point to the ability to patch the associated system data J   files as a way to achieve the desired results; to change the establishedJ   values.  This technique is obviously possible, and entirely unsupported.G   Pendants may well also point to the ability of OpenVMS Engineering to F   alter these default parameter values, and though while this is also H   technically possible, this approach obviously requires the ability to &   rebuild the operating system images.   	--r  L   One- or two-line questions often lack sufficient context for a meaningful K   answer; well, sufficient context for a meaningful answer to the intended  I   question.  Put another way, terse questions beget terse answers -- and hM   potentially answers to unintended interpretations of the question(s) posed.e  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Jun 2002 07:38:47 -0700+ From: seanobanion@attbi.com (Sean O'Banion)sF Subject: Re: Urgent help required( Link command getting struck in vax)= Message-ID: <f883d5a4.0206120638.73667807@posting.google.com>   B There was a bug in VMS 7.2 where the Linker would go into a nearlyB infinite loop when a logical for an input file of any kind, eitherB specified on the commnad line or in an options file, pointed to an empty directory.  F We made sure that none of the directies specified where empty, and the> Linker worked just fine, so I don't know if it was ever fixed.    
 Sean O'Banion     r mvsjetti@hss.hns.com (Mahesh V S Jetti) wrote in message news:<adb15ffe.0206112042.66cd76a0@posting.google.com>... > Hi, F >   My system is having different units. When i am trying to build one
 > unit theD >  link command is getting struck. Its giving no response. The exact > command is >  as follows. > / >  CM BUILD LINKFILE NOI NOIHAND NOIHAND.OPL "" H >  LINK/FULL/NOCROSS/TRACEBACK/MAP=NOI_LST:NOIHAND/EXE=NOI_EXE:NOIHAND  * > NOI$OBJ:NOIHAND, NOI$COM:NOIHAND.OPW/OPT > G >  This command is not giving any repsonse.It waits there indefintely.I  > had ( >  to do ^c to come out of this command. > E >  can u give me some pointers as to why linker waits indefinitely at  > the above27 >  command? or how to proceed in this kind of scenario?Y- >              Any help is higly appreciated.s >  Thanks in advance, 	 >  Mahesh    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:04:30 -040070 From: "Syltrem" <syltremspammenot@videotron.com>- Subject: What process is using this pagefile?o4 Message-ID: <AxIN8.3229$H67.17254@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   Good morning OpenVMS lovers!  H I would like to deinstall one pagefile from my system (it's currently inI deinstall pending), and would like to know what processes are still usingeJ it. If I know what they are and I could kill them (they may be just users,E no system stuff), then I could delete the file without having to do a  reboot.   J I'm pretty sure there is a way with anal/system probably, to get a list of! processes using a given pagefile.e   Can someone help?c   Thanks!i   --   SyltremuI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais) > To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2002 14:46:14 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)t1 Subject: Re: What process is using this pagefile? 0 Message-ID: <ae7mrm$pqc$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  g In article <AxIN8.3229$H67.17254@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem" <syltremspammenot@videotron.com> writes:e >Good morning OpenVMS lovers!  > I >I would like to deinstall one pagefile from my system (it's currently in J >deinstall pending), and would like to know what processes are still usingK >it. If I know what they are and I could kill them (they may be just users,eF >no system stuff), then I could delete the file without having to do a >reboot. >mK >I'm pretty sure there is a way with anal/system probably, to get a list of " >processes using a given pagefile. >F >Can someone help?   What about a   SHOW DEVICE/FILES G on the disk in question? You could even redirect the output into a file 4 ("/OUT=") and search there for the file in question.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann   H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:56:35 -0400l0 From: "Syltrem" <syltremspammenot@videotron.com>1 Subject: Re: What process is using this pagefile? 4 Message-ID: <U2LN8.3258$H67.17237@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>   That won't do.8 The process does not open the pagefile; the system does.   --   Syltrem7I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)@> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  J "Christoph Gartmann" <gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de> a crit dans le message de+ news: ae7mrm$pqc$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de...n@ > In article <AxIN8.3229$H67.17254@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem"( <syltremspammenot@videotron.com> writes: > >Good morning OpenVMS lovers!e > >rK > >I would like to deinstall one pagefile from my system (it's currently in L > >deinstall pending), and would like to know what processes are still usingF > >it. If I know what they are and I could kill them (they may be just users,H > >no system stuff), then I could delete the file without having to do a
 > >reboot. > >-J > >I'm pretty sure there is a way with anal/system probably, to get a list of$ > >processes using a given pagefile. > >  > >Can someone help? >e > What about a >   SHOW DEVICE/FILESrI > on the disk in question? You could even redirect the output into a fileo6 > ("/OUT=") and search there for the file in question. >1
 > Regards, >    Christoph Gartmannf >eJ > -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+J > | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |J > | Immunbiologie                                                        |J > | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |J > | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |J > +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:06:50 +0100 * From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>1 Subject: Re: What process is using this pagefile?e, Message-ID: <ae7v2l$1pf8@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  ; "Syltrem" <syltremspammenot@videotron.com> wrote in messagel. news:AxIN8.3229$H67.17254@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...  J > I would like to deinstall one pagefile from my system (it's currently inK > deinstall pending), and would like to know what processes are still usingaL > it. If I know what they are and I could kill them (they may be just users,G > no system stuff), then I could delete the file without having to do ac	 > reboot.o  = f$getjpi(pid,"PAGFILLOC") or SHOW PROC/PHD and tie the number2$ up with SHOW MEM/FILE/FULL displays.   Quick hack:r  
 $ ctx = ""; $ temp = F$CONTEXT ("PROCESS", ctx, "USERNAME", "*", "EQL")2 $loop: $ pid = F$PID(ctx) $ IF pid .EQS. ""d $ THEN $     GOTO endloop $ ELSE$ $     pf = f$getjpi(pid,"PAGFILLOC")+ $     pf = f$integer("%x" + pf) / %X1000000 # $     write sys$output pid, " ", pf  $     GOTO loop  $ ENDIF, $ endloop: exitl   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Jun 2002 05:49:32 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) E Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases,5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-VdygrqLCPPxJ@localhost>   A On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:03:14 UTC, lbohan@spamless..dbc.com wrote:   F > On 11 Jun 2002 06:02:21 GMT, djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) > wrote: >  > >OT: > > G > >Anybody want a DCL  command procedure to build TCL V8. I don't like  I > >MAKE much anyway and the version I tried, winged about missing system  G > >rules so I tweaked it to a DCL procedure with CC and LINK commands. nF > >The only trouble is LINK winges about not finding IOTCL and FCNTL. I > >After a bit of thought it struck me that that ties up with a prototypeeG > >complaint about defining 'ioctl' as  a function implicitly. Yeah if fF > >the prototype had worked (i.e. been applied) it would have applied = > >whatever magic is required to translate it to 'DECC$IOCTL'i > >iF > >Anybody know why DECC 6.01 on Alpha/VMS 6.2 might have the problem. > >  > >Cheers - Dave.  > 8 > Where did you get the version of TCL you started with? > was a it a standard distro ? > G > I'd looked at getting Tcl/Tk to fly on VMS, now && then, in the past,s3 > and wondered if it's worth another try, nowadays.e  C Found it on the internet after a google search for TCL,VMS. I'm at lD home just now so don't have the URL, I'll dig it out when I get in.    -- M Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.324 ************************; Message-ID: <01KIUO0CNSMI96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>i  I A while back I mentioned that a rooted device cannot be defined in terms oI of another rooted device.  Actually, it seems that any concealed logical sG name cannot be defined in terms of another concealed logical nam@t    At    Bt    Ct    Dt    Et    Ft    Gt    Ht    It    Jt    Kt    Lt    Mt    Nt    Ot    Pt    Qt    Rt    St    Tt    Ut    Vt    Wt    Xt    Yt    Zt    [t    \t    ]t    ^t    _t    `t    at    bt    ct    dt    et    ft    gt    ht    it    jt    kt    lt    mt    nt    ot    pt    qt    rt    st    tt    ut    vt    wt    xt    yt    zt    {t    |t    }t    ~t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t    t     u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    	u    
u    u    u    
u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u     u    !u    "u    #u    $u    %u    &u    'u    (u    )u    *u    +u    ,u    -u    .u    /u    0u    1u    2u    3u    4u    5u    6u    7u    8u    9u    :u    ;u    <u    =u    >u    ?u    @u    Au    Bu    Cu    Du    Eu    Fu    Gu    Hu    Iu    Ju    Ku    Lu    Mu    Nu    Ou    Pu    Qu    Ru    Su    Tu    Uu    Vu    Wu    Xu    Yu    Zu    [u    \u    ]u    ^u    _u    `u    au    bu    cu    du    eu    fu    gu    hu    iu    ju    ku    lu    mu    nu    ou    pu    qu    ru    su    tu    uu    vu    wu    xu    yu    zu    {u    |u    }u    ~u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    u    