1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 13 Jun 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 326       Contents:A Re: "Recode in another language", was: RE: VAX to ia64 migration? A Re: "Recode in another language", was: RE: VAX to ia64 migration? & Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue?& Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue?# Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday 5 Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?)  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  DEC Books and Manuals on eBay  DECServer break key problem  Re: DECWindows "hang"  Re: DECWindows "hang"  Re: DECWindows "hang"  DECwindows various questions  Re: DECwindows various questions  Re: DECwindows various questions! Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File  Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM  Re: ECO Patches  Grant "$ level access"?  Re: Grant "$ level access"?  Re: Grant "$ level access"? 9 Re: How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ? 6 How to convert console from serial to graphics on DS10: Re: How to convert console from serial to graphics on DS10 Re: how to renew a vmasmail ? + Re: howto create self-extracting zip files? + Re: howto create self-extracting zip files? " Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans" Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans" Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans" Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans+ Re: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL 0 Re: Mail masqurading with Compaq TCP/IP services0 Re: Mail masqurading with Compaq TCP/IP services0 Re: Mail masqurading with Compaq TCP/IP services Re: MOZILLA and CSWB Re: MOZILLA and CSWB Re: MOZILLA and CSWB, Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) G RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)  Re: Quorum disk hang Re: Quorum disk hang" Re: rooted devices and /TRANS=CONC" Re: rooted devices and /TRANS=CONC" Re: rooted devices and /TRANS=CONC' Same Code for VMS and Windows Required? + Re: Same Code for VMS and Windows Required? + Re: Same Code for VMS and Windows Required?  Re: SCSI- Fatal Drive Error 7 Secure HTTP client app buildable under OpenVMS/OpenSSL? ; Re: Secure HTTP client app buildable under OpenVMS/OpenSSL? & Re: tpc/ip file server for VMS systems Re: unix historyH Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham'sP Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's  Beer BP unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash iP Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer BaP Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer BaP Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Ba= Re: Urgent help required( Link command getting struck in vax) D Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)( Re: What process is using this pagefile?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:24:51 GMT 3 From: "Duane Smith" <Duane.Smith@nospam.compaq.com> J Subject: Re: "Recode in another language", was: RE: VAX to ia64 migration?1 Message-ID: <7i%N8.9$kL5.217202@news.cpqcorp.net>   I Thanks Steve.  I should have made sure I read all of the replies before I K replied to Ken Fairfield's message.  The engineers at pre-merger Compaq are H commited to the recompile and go messages that have been associated withL OpenVMS IPF.  Whether the compilers are based on existing technology with anJ IA-64 generating GEM or whether they are based on some other technology isE not important if they meet the needs of our customers.  Any compilers K delivered by Compaq based on Intel technology will still be called Compaq C D or Compaq C++.  They will not be called Intel C/C++ for OpenVMS IPF.   Duane Smith   Compaq C/C++ Engineering Manager  8 "Steve Lionel" <Steve.Lionel@intel.com> wrote in message2 news:a5vufu4h67ntl1945cq1l8cl72kf4p7mqe@4ax.com...G > The Intel news server doesn't contain this post (yet), so I'm sort of E > creating this follow-up manually.  I hope it ends up in the correct  > thread...  >  > Ken Fairfield wrote: > G > > To add to what John has said, I recently had the pleasure of giving J > > Steve Lionel, of Fortran fame and now an Intel employee, a tour of theK > > fabs here in Oregon.  I asked specifically about VMS compilers, GEM and F > > IA-64.  To answer the doubters questions (but probably not satisfy them!), D > > The Digtial, then Compaq, now Intel compiler teams is writing an	 interface L > > between GEM and the Intel back-end, which I believe is called "ISL" (butL > > I could very well be mistaken).  The point is the existing VMS compilersJ > > which use the GEM back-end for Alpha will use an ISL back-end on IA-64 via K > > an "adapter" that makes ISL look like GEM to the compiler front-end. So E > > all existing GEM-based VMS compilers should "just work" on IA-64.  > G > It was a delight to see Ken again after all these years (in the past, D > we'd see each other at DECUS), but it seems I could have explained > myself better... > F > Compilers for OpenVMS Itanium will generally fall into three groups: > F > Fortran - "Compaq (Digital) heritage" front-end (language semantics)G > hooked up to the Intel "back-end" (optimization and code generation). D > (This is a lot more work than it sounds!)  The Intel back-end teamD > acquired some, but not all, of the Compaq GEM back-end developers.E > Most of the development work is done by Intel, with any new OpenVMS E > customization or features needed added by Compaq (now HP) engineers B > (active development is underway.)  General new features added toG > Fortran will be available for Itanium and not Alpha, though bug fixes * > will continue to be available for Alpha. > E > C++ (and I think C) - This will start as the current Intel compiler F > (with feature compatibility from Compaq C/C++), using the Intel codeF > generator.  Again, any OpenVMS-specific customizations to be made by > HP.  > G > Everything else - As John Reagan says, other GEM-based compilers will D > be GEM-based on OpenVMS Itanium and are being developed by HP.  We4 > already had GEM for Itanium before the Intel deal. > C > There's a lot of cooperation between HP and Intel - I suggest not ' > getting hung up on who is doing what.  >  >  > F > Please send Visual Fortran support requests to vf-support@compaq.com >  >  > Steve Lionel" > Intel/Compaq Fortran Engineering > Software Products Division > Intel Corporation  > Nashua, NH > 0 > Compaq Fortran - http://www.compaq.com/fortran > Intel Fortran - ; http://developer.intel.com/software/products/compilers/f60/ 1 > User forum: http://www.compaq.com/fortran/forum    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:11:23 GMT 3 From: "Duane Smith" <Duane.Smith@nospam.compaq.com> J Subject: Re: "Recode in another language", was: RE: VAX to ia64 migration?0 Message-ID: <v5%N8.8$cH5.44076@news.cpqcorp.net>  G "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net> E wrote in message news:3CFD0CCB.1F2B07CC@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net...   	 > > [...] F > > The Alpha-based compilers will always be GEM-based.  We will fullyL > > support those compilers and enhance them as needed.  The latest versions? > > of the Alpha compilers take full advantage of the EV7 chip.  > > K > > The Itanium-based compilers will mostly be GEM-based.  Some will remain K > > GEM-based forever I'd guess (Intel doesn't make a BLISS compiler :-) ). K > >   Others may migrate to Intel's compilers when we can ensure that those K > > compilers have the right features and are can work properly with things  > > like the debuggers and OS. >  > [...]  > I >     To add to what John has said, I recently had the pleasure of giving H > Steve Lionel, of Fortran fame and now an Intel employee, a tour of theI > fabs here in Oregon.  I asked specifically about VMS compilers, GEM and L > IA-64.  To answer the doubters questions (but probably not satisfy them!),L > The Digtial, then Compaq, now Intel compiler teams is writing an interfaceJ > between GEM and the Intel back-end, which I believe is called "ISL" (butJ > I could very well be mistaken).  The point is the existing VMS compilersL > which use the GEM back-end for Alpha will use an ISL back-end on IA-64 viaI > an "adapter" that makes ISL look like GEM to the compiler front-end. So C > all existing GEM-based VMS compilers should "just work" on IA-64.  >  >   K I find the statement "the point is the existing VMS compilers which use the I GEM back-end for Alpha will use an ISL back-end on IA-64 via an "adapter" J that makes ISL look like GEM to the compiler front-end" fascinating.  WhenH does Intel plan to discuss the existence of such an adapter with Compaq?  H I have read through all of these messages and those from John Reagan areL accurate and concise.  John is the only compiler engineer who has accurately described the Compaq plans.    Duane Smith   Compaq C/C++ Engineering Manager   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:08:38 GMT 2 From: "Andrew Dodd" <Andrew.J.Dodd@HP.spamfreecom>/ Subject: Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue? 2 Message-ID: <GH1O8.19$vT5.437360@news.cpqcorp.net>  L HP StorageWorks can have as many ports as you like, OK there are limits, but0 for a large capacity SAN it is not limited to 4.  J StorageWorks has no concept of "box throughput" as it is entirely modular,I add more controllers, disks, switches, cache etc and keep the whole thing F nicely balanced. Any limits come from things like maximum cascading ofJ switches or LUNs etc but all of these are high enough not to be issues for real applications.   --" Andrew Dodd - not speaking for HP. Pre-Sales Account Consultant HP Computer Ltd  www.hp.com/uk/   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 09:54:50 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) / Subject: Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue? 3 Message-ID: <o99MACnH2PT8@eisner.encompasserve.org>   g In article <GH1O8.19$vT5.437360@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Andrew Dodd" <Andrew.J.Dodd@HP.spamfreecom> writes: N > HP StorageWorks can have as many ports as you like, OK there are limits, but2 > for a large capacity SAN it is not limited to 4. >    	True.  A 	But when it comes down to counting ports across boxed solutions  B 	(i.e. Enterprise Virtual Array 2C12D config for example) you haveB 	4 ports.  The other players of course trot out their port counts.  @ 	Now imagine the poor helpless end-loser trying to sort all this? 	out.  One vendor comes in and talks up their strengths knowing > 	full well the weaknesses of the oppposing vendor.  One has to@ 	be very much on their toes and unless you have done a good deal@ 	of preparation you will not be aware of what is truly important 	and what isn't.    L > StorageWorks has no concept of "box throughput" as it is entirely modular,K > add more controllers, disks, switches, cache etc and keep the whole thing H > nicely balanced. Any limits come from things like maximum cascading ofL > switches or LUNs etc but all of these are high enough not to be issues for > real applications.  2 	Oh, of course.  I would say it scales quite well.  ? 	Now let's drill down a little further and talk a bit about how  	the game is played.  H 	RFP for a SAN solution , (you poor sap, you DON'T want to be a part of # 	this project) let the games begin.   C 	How is the RFP formulated?  Not well, because you don't understand A 	the problem or really how much it is going to cost.  Perhaps you B 	have a fixed dollar amount?  That would be a very good thing.  SoC 	trot the vendors through, learning as you go.  Do some site visits @ 	too as this is a very important decision.  Perhaps you know youA 	want a certain amount of storage, that is your criteria.  Or was A 	it cost?  Is this part of a project and a SAN is under that cost  	center?  May be.  	 B 	So now you have eliminated a number of the fringe players and setD 	your sights on a fixed "starting" amount of storage and are lettingD 	the finalists battle it out.  In the end, everything goes quiet andA 	the surprising winner is more costly but an "Enterprise Storage" @ 	provider.   They have higher port counts and more cache.  That C 	wasn't the initial criteria, but not much really was.  The storage B 	assessment that was provided by one of the participants?  Largely' 	ignored.  Too many cowboys everywhere.   F 	Oh, add a great deal of hand-waving and a great deal of mis-directionD 	in the above description (raw storage, or actual?  Why is the added>  	storage so expensive?  Oh, it is Enterprise Storage, I keep I 	forgetting, thanks for the reminder.  "May I have another one, Sir?").   F 	Perhaps that is  why certain Enterprise Storage vendors have had the G 	wind taken out of their sails in the last 18 months.  Belt tightening  G 	cuts down on the game playing and hand-waving grows old after a while. H 	And most importantly, storage isn't as mystical as some would have you 	 	believe.    				Rob    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:39:20 +0200 E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> , Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday+ Message-ID: <3D086848.990DFE64@mediasec.de>   E > What hardware support for ASTs does Alpha offer that other hardware 
 > doesn't?  I I do think all the actual AST support code is in PAL. ISTR that there are L processor-specific registers to keep the necessary information around (ASTEND comes to mind), but that wouldn't be an absolute requirement, just aH performance enhancement. Witness the fact that I certainly haven't heardJ the VMS developers complaining about such lack for their IA64 port of VMS.  H It will be a bigger problem to put such support into the OS and into theJ applications, both being written without such asynchronous event in mind. I And it seems very likely that is will be very much pervasive than in VMS. I Just the functional equivalent of a blocking AST should be fairly easy to  do.  	Jan   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:13:49 +0000 (UTC) 9 From: Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no> , Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday- Message-ID: <ae9upd$aqo$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>   3 Jan C. Vorbrggen <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote: F :> What hardware support for ASTs does Alpha offer that other hardware :> doesn't?   K : I do think all the actual AST support code is in PAL. ISTR that there are N : processor-specific registers to keep the necessary information around (ASTENF : comes to mind), but that wouldn't be an absolute requirement, just aJ : performance enhancement. Witness the fact that I certainly haven't heardL : the VMS developers complaining about such lack for their IA64 port of VMS.  ( I have been wondering about that myself. IA64 has nothing like PAL? Does IA64 have IPLs?  & ASTs can be done entirely in software.? They probably had to do it on the 386/IA32-port some years ago.c   -- a -Roarl   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 11:58:59 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)l> Subject: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?)3 Message-ID: <+wM$XoiF7TTD@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  s In article <3D08C25C.C822E8A3@mediasec.de>, Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> writes:e  B > The complaint I have here is that DEC^H^H^H... have not made theA > CLD and the library implementing things such as the common fileoC > selection qualifiers generally available outside the VMS-supplied  > utilities.  7 > PS: Apply liberal dose of cum grano salis, of course.u   I shall, in light of:   S file:/disk$axpdocjun021/opsys/vmsos73/vmsos73/4493/4493pro_004.html#4493_cqual_chapl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:17:26 +0200V' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>o$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D085516.78A49F48@spam.not>   Jeffrey Chimene wrote: >  > Brass Christof wrote:e >   . > > Why isn't there anything like CDL on UNIX? > >eH > > A mature OS should provide a more complete base and more concise API > > than UNIX. > S > Command language parsing is available as an API in the GNU library. One must lookgV > farther afield in the Unix environment for solutions than VMS. One doesn't find manyW > VMS APIs compared to Unix. It's a difference in philosophy. Vendors in the Unix spaceTV > distinguish themselves via their APIs. In the VMS space, there's only one vendor. MyT > guess is that the same arguments can be heard on the Non-Stop Kernel and OS/VS, &c > listservers.  5 I'm not sure whether I understand your last sentence.S  D I'm well aware of getopt which does only have of the trick. There is still more aG code to write in the app than compared to VMS. Also the check for basics	 validity iH of parameters and options/qualifiers isn't done by the CLI which imposes again A more error handling code to write in the app. Anyway only a smallm portion of  G programs is using getopt and because there is no agreed way for placingq and G arranging the parameters and options getopt can't be used for all casess that g6 are already out in the field but coded without getopt.  E Even with GNU and Linux which can be considered as one or two vendorso there F are a lot of things to be desired wrt standardisation and conventions.  F As you pointed out there is fundamental difference in philosophy which is n2 exactly the reason why VMS is that much different.  R > That said, it would be nice to have a CDU API in Unix. It's probably do-able via > BISON/YACC/Flex.  D Not at all you have to change the way the shell handles command line input.  > But what did I write? "the shell"? This doesn't mean anything.   --  < According to an analysis of the Quality Assurance Institute ? C/C++/ObjC, PERL, UNIX and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful.  5 Java is slow and the class library is badly designed.r  7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencek   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 09:08:41 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d086119.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  E In article <3D058592.1AF7C0BC@fsi.net>, djesys.nospam@fsi.net says...  >e >Aristotle SnowNasis wrote:u >>  K >> In article <adoch4$jga$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov>, Scandora@cmt.anl.gov says...S >> >8 >> >"Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message& >> >news:3CFF3B6D.ED24C47D@spam.not...( >> >> "Scandora, Anthony (35048)" wrote:	 >> >> ...:B >> >> > > Did I mention that UNIX is shit/crap and C fits well in? >> >> >eO >> >> > There is a lot not to like about it, but once properly configured, UNIXS >> >canDO >> >> > run reliably and do a lot of work, and most of what's wrong with C alsouJ >> >> > applies to BLISS and to Macro.  A lot can be said about .ascid v.  .asciz9 >> >> > strings, but that's a lanugage independent issue.a >> >>OB >> >> The point is how much time you need to get it in that state.A >> >> Having BLISS and Macro similar flaws doesn't make C better.d >> > >> >N >> >It's annoying, but not too difficult to learn where those config files areM >> >and what goes in them.  I suspect someone who doesn't know VMS would moanaL >> >about having to learn AUTOGEN and MODPARAMS.  Once you know your stuff,  it's< >> >pretty easy to configure either a Linux or a VMS system. >> 6, >> I'd agree. VMS can be so obtuse at times, >sA >Examples, please? Hard to understand the reference without them.    Oh, autogen for one...   >e' >> whereas MOST Unix have configurationeM >> files in centrally located areas. Also, help on VMS is quite brief and notvK >> always very helpful. On the other hand, man pages, while sometimes beingtM >> tautological are full of information, especially that parts that describe o thet) >> files used in such-and-such a program.e >eE >That's what documentation is for. However, since none comes with thelI >average UN*X variant, the man pages are about all there is - ANYWHERE! -e  O Not used unix in a long time, I take it? Published articles, documentation are gL every bit (and better than VMS). I'm not into a flame war here as both have N their merits, it's just nonsensical to bash one simply because you prefer the  other. y    H >other than things like the on-line FreeBSD doc.'s and such. Even today,8 >there is still a great preference for hard-copy doc.'s.  7 As VMS manuals are basically the help system printed...e     >fL >> By the way, I'm an administrator on several unix and vms platforms (vax &
 >> alpha). >> hP >> Overall, VMS has stood still for years while Unix has marched on (especially  toN >> the degree of products provided by the likes of HP, Sun, Compaq to enhance  the  >> "unix experience"...) >aG >Compared to VMS, IMO, it *NEEDS* a whole hell of a lot of enhancement!c  < As above, it's obvious your experience with Unix is limited.   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 09:12:17 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d0861f1.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  N In article <ae5326$25o3$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu says... >w- >In article <ae4l2p$ssq$2@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>,e. > Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.cc.jyu.fi> writes:- >|> Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:e >|> > Osmo Kujala wrote: >|> >> p+ >|> >> RLC <rlc@magicalsoftware.com> wrote:g >|> >>  P >|> >> >> How about: Lets try to change feature xyz. WHAT? NO SOURCE! DONE WITH  VMS! >|> N >|> As clarification/reminder: I wrote above line when speculating how hacker G >|> would react, not containing an opinion that sources should be open.  >|>  >mI >Actually, copies of VMS source CD's have gone on Ebay a number of times.eH >Surely everyone here doesn't expect that the bnuyers are legitimate VMSG >licensees??  If they haven't been bought by at least one hacker, it isfI >very likely because no hacker cares about an OS as insignificant as VMS.o >  >Security by obscurity.u  O Actually it is for this reason that we loghost all our logs to a VMS machine - rJ any hacker MAY get into one of our Unix boxes and have a bit of knowledge L gained from hacking their Linux/*BSD system, but if they try to cover their G tracks by hacking the loghost they'll just gasp and say "What the ...."M     >billi >s >-- K >Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolveseE >bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.c >University of Scranton   |eB >Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>      ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 09:14:30 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d086276.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  1 In article <ae4t4d$f4h$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>,  3 andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com says...r >r >c >c >David J. Dachtera wrote:m >t >> Aristotle SnowNasis wrote:u > G >> That's what documentation is for. However, since none comes with the K >> average UN*X variant, the man pages are about all there is - ANYWHERE! - J >> other than things like the on-line FreeBSD doc.'s and such. Even today,: >> there is still a great preference for hard-copy doc.'s. >> r >> @ >m >-E >I have to dissagree. Solaris for example comes with something calledoB >answerbook which is full doumentation on CD. If you don't want toH >use that and have a browser connected to the internet then docs.sun.comC >and or sunsolve also provide full documentation and patch reports.s  L Not only that but the Solaris printed docs are very good for explaining the K systems. Of course, Solaris, like Tru64 and HPUX (and VMS) do forget about IA things here and there and leave you with "undocumented features".e   >n >Regards >Andrew Harrison >u   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 09:17:00 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d08630c.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  E In article <3D07F12B.7303EF4E@fsi.net>, djesys.nospam@fsi.net says..., >t) >Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:  >> f >> David J. Dachtera wrote:E >>   >> > Aristotle SnowNasis wrote:s >> tI >> > That's what documentation is for. However, since none comes with theeM >> > average UN*X variant, the man pages are about all there is - ANYWHERE! - L >> > other than things like the on-line FreeBSD doc.'s and such. Even today,< >> > there is still a great preference for hard-copy doc.'s. >> > >> > >>  G >> I have to dissagree. Solaris for example comes with something called D >> answerbook which is full doumentation on CD. If you don't want toJ >> use that and have a browser connected to the internet then docs.sun.comE >> and or sunsolve also provide full documentation and patch reports.w > H >...and if you don't have another computer running, your screwed without >the hard-copy.r  5 No, you go and look at the manuals (the PRINTED ones)s   >--  >David J. Dachtera >dba DJE Systems >http://www.djesys.com/l >f) >Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:a  >http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 09:36:59 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d0867bb.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  K In article <pfE0Er74rQaE@eisner.encompasserve.org>, frey@encompasserve.org h says...e >sN >>> >and what goes in them.  I suspect someone who doesn't know VMS would moanM >>> >about having to learn AUTOGEN and MODPARAMS.  Once you know your stuff, S it's= >>> >pretty easy to configure either a Linux or a VMS system.o >>> - >>> I'd agree. VMS can be so obtuse at times,e > M >        Once knew an experienced computer guy who bemoaned having to log in.tP >Supposedly his background was in IBM mainframes, but I always thought that you M >logged into those also, but what do I know?  He acted alot more like he was  N >used to peecees, however this was in the mid-eighties, even before Win95 was M >available, so that experience couldn't have been too terribly long.  At the mF >time, he was in his mid-fifties and had a couple decades of computer E >experience.  It took him *months* before he quit muttering over the   >username/password prompts.4K >        Just goes to show ya...  also remember that often people complain   about $ >anything they're not familiar with.  L I'm VERY familiar with OpenVMS as well as Tru64, Solaris and HP/UX. I don't = agree with your nonsensical attempt at demeaning my argument.t   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 09:21:18 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d08640e.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  N In article <ae4vq6$24l0$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu says... >n( >In article <3D058592.1AF7C0BC@fsi.net>,5 > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:e >|> H >|> That's what documentation is for. However, since none comes with theJ >|> average UN*X variant, the man pages are about all there is - ANYWHERE! >f' >Haven't been to the bookstore lately??a > B >Waldens, B. Dalton, Barnes & Noble.  All of them around here have? >racks of third party books on Unix in general, Linux or BSD ini; >particular and even more dedicated subjects like SysAdmin.  >h- >Just a quick glance at my bookshelf reveals:n > 1 >"Introducing the UNIX System", McGraw-Hill, 1983.@ >"UNIX System V Primer (Revised Edition)", The Waite Group, 19873 >"UNIX System Administration", Harcourt Brace, 1987 I >"UNIX SYSTEM Administration Handbook (2nd Edition)", Prentice Hall, 1994sI >"UNIX SYSTEM Administration Handbook (3rd Edition)", Prentice Hall, 2001t5 >"LINUX Administration Handbook", Prentice Hall, 2002s > G >And that is hardly exhaustive.  And what books are available for VMS??n  L Yep, my old VMS performance tuning book, DCL book etc all went out of print 
 years ago.     >billpF >PS. As an aside, I would strongly recommend those last two for peopleD >who need to do UNIX and/or Linux Admin work.  Really good books and5 >I don't say that just cause I know the authors.  :-)   M There is so many good Unix books around. This is one reason for my statement s about VMS standing still.n   >s >-- K >Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesqE >bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.a >University of Scranton   |hB >Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>      ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 09:34:16 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d086718.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  A In article <3D0628BA.591BCCE7@spam.not>, welcome@spam.not says...t >? >Aristotle SnowNasis wrote:  >> pK >> In article <adoch4$jga$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov>, Scandora@cmt.anl.gov says...e >> >8 >> >"Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message& >> >news:3CFF3B6D.ED24C47D@spam.not...( >> >> "Scandora, Anthony (35048)" wrote:	 >> >> ...aB >> >> > > Did I mention that UNIX is shit/crap and C fits well in? >> >> >iP >> >> > There is a lot not to like about it, but once properly configured, UNIX  canwO >> >> > run reliably and do a lot of work, and most of what's wrong with C also J >> >> > applies to BLISS and to Macro.  A lot can be said about .ascid v.  .asciz9 >> >> > strings, but that's a lanugage independent issue.s >> >> B >> >> The point is how much time you need to get it in that state.A >> >> Having BLISS and Macro similar flaws doesn't make C better.  >> > >> >N >> >It's annoying, but not too difficult to learn where those config files areM >> >and what goes in them.  I suspect someone who doesn't know VMS would moan L >> >about having to learn AUTOGEN and MODPARAMS.  Once you know your stuff,  it's< >> >pretty easy to configure either a Linux or a VMS system. >> iD >> I'd agree. VMS can be so obtuse at times, whereas MOST Unix have 
 configurationsM >> files in centrally located areas. Also, help on VMS is quite brief and notsK >> always very helpful. On the other hand, man pages, while sometimes beingrM >> tautological are full of information, especially that parts that describe T thel) >> files used in such-and-such a program.- >-B >The commands' parameters and options are a complete mess on UNIX.   Your opinion, I disagree.o   >?C >The standardised API for UNIX is that low level that tons of code   >are duplicated with the apps.   What?.    L >> By the way, I'm an administrator on several unix and vms platforms (vax &
 >> alpha). >> sP >> Overall, VMS has stood still for years while Unix has marched on (especially  toN >> the degree of products provided by the likes of HP, Sun, Compaq to enhance  then >> "unix experience"...) >A+ >Why isn't there anything like CDL on UNIX?a >bE >A mature OS should provide a more complete base and more concise API  >than UNIX.n  P These are rather non-specific statements. Hard to hit a target if we don't know  what it is.      >bL >> >Similar language flaws don't make C worse, either.  C can't be condemned. >> >unless BLISS and Macro are also condemned. >> >>oM >> >> > VMS advocacy would be better served by touting its advantages than by-H >> >> > calling products that do a lot of useful work and the people who1 >> >> > create them perjorative and vulgar names.o >> >>QE >> >> VMS is cleanly designed while UNIX is not. This is a differencen: >> >> which is independent of the implementation language. >> >J >> >What's under the hood of my car is interesting to me and fun to learn  about,K >> >but not as important to me as the fact that the car was easy to buy, it N >> >starts when I turn the key, and it gives me a nice ride to where I want toF >> >go.  Likewise, I stand in admiration of the outstanding design andN >> >implementation of VMS, but what matters to most computer users is that the& >> >system runs applications reliably. >3E >Completely agreed from that point of view. But on the long term it's  >important  G >how the services are implemented because this influences the stabilityc >and C >costs for further development.D >3G >The same reason applies to C and PERL development. It doesn't deliver fG >quality at acceptable costs. Therefore it's important to look under to  >hood. > O >> It strikes me as rather snobbish to describe VMS as "cleanly designed". SureoF >> Unix started its life as an experimental OS and grew from that and  subsequentlyN >> inherited a few flaws, it has been tightened up over the years to prove to  be a >> very stable and reliable OS.  >fC >I read that VMS was designed in an organised way, but UNIX wasn't eH >but instead was developed in a more experimental trial and error style.  L You're living in the past. Unix has changed so much from the original days,  obviously. .    3 >What do you think isn't cleanly designed with VMS?S >  >> >>l >> >> Who created UNIX?e >> >N >> >A couple of PDP-7 hackers at Bell Labs way back in ancient history.  MajorN >> >later development was done at Berkeley, which is also known for LSD, whichI >> >some don't think is a coincidence.  All that is irrelevant.  For manyeN >> >applications, Linux is easy to configure and runs applications reliably on >> >cheap commodity hardware.e >>  I >> With software that is generally free and not a bitch to license... :-)e >o@ >But honestly this wasn't the case in the first decade, at least >according  C >to the UNIX-haters Handbook from which the LSD quote may have beeno >taken.   4 Again, it's in the past - it has matured since then.   >vD >I completely agree that there are many cases where you can use UNIX >boxes iI >to accomplish a task and more often than not you have to if you want to ,H >avoid an even greater mess with other wide spread OSs because the apps > >aren't available for VMS. But this is not a technical reason.  O True, but many a good idea has gone the way of the dinosaur because of lack of  M support. That's why I said VMS has basically stood still (and I meant by VMS t2 all the tools and add-ons to the VMS core system).  M Would you ague that without ip support, VMS may have died much quicker as we   all threw away our decnets...?   >eE >Anyway to come back to the topic: I'm sure something like the Linux 9A >history is not appropriate for VMS and will probably not happen cB >because the number of people that think the VMS way is too small. >n >-- 8 >moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:25:18 +0200oE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>B$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <3D0864FE.C958EF6B@mediasec.de>.  C > The difference between hard copy and electronic is a pint of ink.   F Not at all. The difference is that hardcopy only requires photons, notK electrons, to read and is in a format fit for human consumption. Electronic>
 hardly is.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:27:00 +0200 E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>a$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?* Message-ID: <3D086564.6905953@mediasec.de>  9 > As VMS manuals are basically the help system printed...>  
 Oh really?  > > As above, it's obvious your experience with Unix is limited.   As above, it's obvious...d   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:34:37 +0200cE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>U$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <3D08672D.985A4E58@mediasec.de>e  F > That said, it would be nice to have a CDU API in Unix. It's probably > do-able via BISON/YACC/Flex.  H It's not a technical problem - any undergraduate worth his salary, with K the assistance of an experienced designer, could implement that as homeworkeE for a one-semester course. It's a sociological problem - you need allfI applications, be they provided with the OS or not, to be written against rN this standard; and not only to its letter, but also its spirit (there are someK VMS tools, often created by people with a Unix background, that use the DCLrM facilities, but they don't have the VMS look-and-feel). And Unix has grown uplM with the spirit of "everybody for himself" and of re-inventing the wheel, andaN of being obtuse for the fun of it. This contrasts with the users' requirements> - a famous quote is of one person working a CERN who stood up I at a public meeting saying, "the average user can learn no more that 1.01s operating systems".e  E getopt is a step in the right direction. Does it support abbreviatingh the options?   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:26:19 +0200aE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>p$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <3D08734B.FBC36CC2@mediasec.de>p  D > >The commands' parameters and options are a complete mess on UNIX. > Your opinion, I disagree.>  J No, that's not opinion. There are people out there, you know, that conductK experiments with live human beings on the suitability of a user interface.  M Some situations even require formal certification of this aspect of software.rL There are measurable differences between interfaces, and Unix shells and DCLJ are no difference. I'm sure you weren't on that Airbus flight to StraburgC when it crashed in no small part due to a flaw in interface design.   D What Unix commands, as a collective, are lacking is consistency and G memorability. My mind works differently from a computer, thank you very  much.j   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:11:06 -0400>2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D088BDA.45EDE9CF@mindspring.com>   "Jan C. Vorbrggen" wrote:  E > > The difference between hard copy and electronic is a pint of ink.  > H > Not at all. The difference is that hardcopy only requires photons, notM > electrons, to read and is in a format fit for human consumption. ElectronicS > hardly is.  6 Oh, in hardcopy, electrons are required too; they just$ don't move around quite as much. :-)   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:20:16 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D088E00.6E48E8FA@mindspring.com>   "Jan C. Vorbrggen" wrote:  E > What Unix commands, as a collective, are lacking is consistency and D > memorability. My mind works differently from a computer, thank you > very much.  " Okay, here's a quick test for you:  >  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier?      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier?i    4 Now, contrast that with the analagous Unix question:  9   o Which Unix commands allow their output to be printed?-       ...saved to a file?     = Obviously, the interfaces on both systems have both strengthsw; and weaknesses. Speaking solely for me, I'm much happier in0= tcsh than DCL. Not only can I print or save the output of anyu9 command, I can even edit lines longer than a single sceenn> width (or has VMS finally resolved that long-standing issue?).   Atlant   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:41:00 +0100 (MET)m9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>o$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?; Message-ID: <01KIVW5UC6JG96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   2 > I can even edit lines longer than a single sceen@ > width (or has VMS finally resolved that long-standing issue?).  E No, but I can hit the UP-arrow to recall commands without the escape aH sequences being displayed on the screen while an application is running. :-)    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 07:43:22 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <ga+mLcyFUt2Z@eisner.encompasserve.org>k  S In article <3D07E2D6.F637F3F@nospam.net>, Jeffrey Chimene <jeff@nospam.net> writes:" > Brass Christof wrote:  > D >> The commands' parameters and options are a complete mess on UNIX. >>D >> The standardised API for UNIX is that low level that tons of code  >> are duplicated with the apps. >> > Q > The GNU environment has gone to great lengths to standardize the parameter set.@ >   A    Once again we recall that GNU stands for GNU's not UNIX.  JustuE    because GNU has made progress doesn't mean UNIX has made progress.e   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 07:47:16 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)*$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <mQ2tKO1eEC0+@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <3D088E00.6E48E8FA@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:d > "Jan C. Vorbrggen" wrote: > F >> What Unix commands, as a collective, are lacking is consistency andE >> memorability. My mind works differently from a computer, thank yout
 >> very much.b > $ > Okay, here's a quick test for you: > @ >  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier? >      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier?n >       Ask the wrong question...  D    We all know what th /print qualifier does, don't we?  We all know=    what the /output qualifier does, too.  That's consistency.s  2    So what does -r mean?  There is no consistency.  6 > Now, contrast that with the analagous Unix question: > ; >   o Which Unix commands allow their output to be printed?G >       ...saved to a file?m >   F    Like VMS, all of them.  If you don't know how, I suggest you learn.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:05:30 -0400e2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D08989A.DEE08051@mindspring.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:  & > > Okay, here's a quick test for you: > >SB > >  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier?! > >      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier?  >oF >    We all know what th /print qualifier does, don't we?  We all know? >    what the /output qualifier does, too.  That's consistency.B  0 Great. Now try answering *THE QUESTION I ASKED*.  8 *WHICH* commands implement the elusive /PRINT qualifier?B You prbably don't know without looking/trying. I certainly didn't,; and I used VMS for the better part of several decades. Samed4 for /OUTPUT. Someday *ALL* the DEC-provided commands= may implement those two qualifiers. But it's a certainty thate7 there will *NEVER* come a time when all the third-party * and user-provided commands implement them.    4 >    So what does -r mean?  There is no consistency.  . I admitted that both command environments have, weaknesses. Can you make the same admission?     Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:11:36 +0200dE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>n$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <3D08A818.CF2D3FE1@mediasec.de>C  $ > Okay, here's a quick test for you: > @ >  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier? >      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier?u  B I don't care for /PRINT - too limited anyway. All I need implementA /OUTPUT. Should one be around that doesn't, there still is DEFINEu SYS$OUTPUT/USER or PIPE. s  H But my point was that the names of these options are the same everwhere.  6 > Now, contrast that with the analagous Unix question: > ; >   o Which Unix commands allow their output to be printed?e >       ...saved to a file?   D Wrong question. Or you would have needed to ask the same question of the VMS commands above.c   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 14:01:07 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <aea8j3$1lce$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  + In article <3D08672D.985A4E58@mediasec.de>,EH  Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> writes: |> dH |> getopt is a step in the right direction. Does it support abbreviating |> the options?"  J No reason why it couldn't.  But most Unix options are only one letter long. now.  What would you abbreviate them to??  :-)   bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:35:32 -0400r2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D08ADB4.56AA41E2@mindspring.com>   "Jan C. Vorbrggen" wrote:  & > > Okay, here's a quick test for you: > > B > >  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier?! > >      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier?- >-D > I don't care for /PRINT - too limited anyway. All I need implementC > /OUTPUT. Should one be around that doesn't, there still is DEFINE  > SYS$OUTPUT/USER or PIPE.  . Ahh. So you also can't remember which commands have /PRINT or /OUTPUT? :-)a  2 And you hack-around that by using file-redirection
 or piping.  ) Hmm, sounds like Unix got this one right!@   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:36:45 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D08ADFD.3D8019CD@mindspring.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  0 > But most Unix options are only one letter long0 > now.  What would you abbreviate them to??  :-)   -dwimi  1 (which, of course, would automagically invoke alli necessary sub-options.)e   Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 10:28:03 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <0bveeq41$FrO@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  c In article <3D08ADB4.56AA41E2@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:i > "Jan C. Vorbrggen" wrote: > ' >> > Okay, here's a quick test for you:u >> >C >> >  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier?U" >> >      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier? >>E >> I don't care for /PRINT - too limited anyway. All I need implementsD >> /OUTPUT. Should one be around that doesn't, there still is DEFINE >> SYS$OUTPUT/USER or PIPE.> > 0 > Ahh. So you also can't remember which commands > have /PRINT or /OUTPUT? :-)y > 4 > And you hack-around that by using file-redirection > or piping. > + > Hmm, sounds like Unix got this one right!  >   6 	Absolutely.  In fact, several of us acknowledge that!  \ http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=278pkk%248t3%241%40cs.widener.edu&oe=UTF8&output=gplain  - From: YOUNG@tattoo.cs.widener.edu (Rob Young)  Newsgroups: comp.os.vmsl! Subject: Re: VMS wish list (long)e Date: 16 Sep 1993 04:21:40 GMT' Organization: Widener News/Mail Gatewayv Distribution: worldt  8 	Create a superset of DCL, call it SUPERDCL if you will.: 	This super DCL is enhanced according to feedback received: 	from the VMS user community.  Initially it does DCL plus:   		1) *limited* Piping		|% 		2) Input/Output redirection     > <e  8 	Supporting another major CLI would ensure that the true: 	DCL would not break and allow more flexibility.  Hey, if 9 	you can support POSIX why not just stuff the *good* Un*x  	things into DCL?k   ---h  : 	By the way, you can use less than the fingers on one handE 	to count up what Unix stuff is worthy for VMS.  It fairly sucks, but B 	I think we can attribute it *mostly* to its hacked-up underground= 	grind-it-out development roots.  Makes for neat books/moviesoA 	but not a good paradigm for quality engineering, IMHO.  However,r= 	you can apply quality engineering to Unix and Tru64, AIX are B 	good examples of that (not to take anything away from the others,G 	I'm sure HP/UX and Solaris are fine products too).  Admittedly much ofa@ 	"perceived badness" is not there.  That said, initial design is> 	something they are stuck with and are attempting to stuff VMSC 	kernel features in is painful or impossible or impossibly painful.w   				Rob>  L "UNIX is akin to a religion to some.  If things aren't done like they are inG UNIX, then they must be bad.  Sorry, I don't believe in this religion."y  O                                               -- Dave Cutler, NT lead ArchitectuJ                                                  UNIXWorld - February 1992   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:57:47 +0200tE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>d$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <3D08C0FB.F16ABE23@mediasec.de>   L > No reason why it couldn't.  But most Unix options are only one letter long0 > now.  What would you abbreviate them to??  :-)  J The point of getopt is that it allows --dosomething instead of the single-# letter monsters. Still no NO, IIRC.    	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:03:40 +0200gE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>i$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <3D08C25C.C822E8A3@mediasec.de>   0 > Ahh. So you also can't remember which commands > have /PRINT or /OUTPUT? :-)t  = Nope, I just don't care - just as much as I don't to remembere" what I had for dinner 47 days ago.  4 > And you hack-around that by using file-redirection > or piping.  < Should there be a lack of orthogonality on the switch set of= a VMS command - which of course in excusable, let's throw outF= the baby with bathwater immediately - mostly for some obscure ? historical reason, then that other method is available. And has> been from day 1.    @ The complaint I have here is that DEC^H^H^H... have not made the? CLD and the library implementing things such as the common filegA selection qualifiers generally available outside the VMS-suppliedb
 utilities.  C I really see a need to rid of all that historical baggage and re-dom VMS properly again.e   	Jan  5 PS: Apply liberal dose of cum grano salis, of course.h   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 12:06:04 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)b$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <Lw+4Anhw$x66@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  c In article <3D08ADB4.56AA41E2@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:S > + > Hmm, sounds like Unix got this one right!  >   G    Sure, UNIX got some things right.  When VMS was written some of the uB    best things about UNIX got used, like a tree of directories and>    subdirectories which do not each have their own login.  TheB    inheritance may not be direct, but UNIX had them before VMS was    written.a  C    Folks have been asking for PIPE funcitonality for VMS for years,iE    a couple years ago it finally showed up.  They've also been asking C    for portability which will get better during the IA-64 port, and1=    the equivalent of "stty erase" which isn't on the horizon.r  A    Now if UNIX could get some of the stuff VMS got right it might-    be more usefull.B  D    And we could start a religous flame war over it, or we could just&    go to google and read the last one.   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 17:06:00 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)t$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <aeajdo$1r3b$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ' In article <3D07F50E.97CC8F9D@fsi.net>,-4  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:M |> > s, |> > In article <3D058592.1AF7C0BC@fsi.net>,9 |> >  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:h |> > |> L |> > |> That's what documentation is for. However, since none comes with theN |> > |> average UN*X variant, the man pages are about all there is - ANYWHERE! |> > :+ |> > Haven't been to the bookstore lately??b |> gE |> Actually, I've been to the bookstores and the computer stores, but F |> nowhere did I see a Linux or *BSD distro. that comes with three big+ |> boxes of hard-copy doc.'s like VMS does.y  B And how many VMS distros did you see in those same stores??  Let'sG stick with the original point, which was that there is no documentationdC for Unix beyond the man pages "ANYWHERE"  which is obviously wrong..  D I haven't looked lately, but there used to be books with distros forC both Linux and FreeBSD in those same bookstores.  I would guess then@ reason to not do that has much to do with the advent of hi-speedB INTERNET in the house, free iso's of these distros being availableB on the INTERNET and the long lead time to actually get a book (and@ the distros with it) into the stores.  None of these distros is 4 stagnating.  If it's a year old, it's been improved.  D Oh, and I have &.3 for the Aplpha right here and it didn't come withE "three big boxes of hard-copy doc.'s"  It came with 4 little book andiE 2 printed papers totalling about 1.5" of shelf.  I have seen the GreyeG Wall (I still have my Ultrix Grey Wall) and I have even seen the OrangehC Wall, but I don't think hard copy documentation is the norm for VMS,C any more than it would be for Unix.  But, regardless of which shipsnD with more documentation, there ican still be little doubt that thereE is much more third party, aftermarket documentation for Unix than fort VMS.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 12:25:37 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)s$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <y$Yyigtslxxc@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  ` In article <aeajdo$1r3b$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  F > Oh, and I have &.3 for the Aplpha right here and it didn't come withG > "three big boxes of hard-copy doc.'s"  It came with 4 little book and-G > 2 printed papers totalling about 1.5" of shelf.  I have seen the GreytI > Wall (I still have my Ultrix Grey Wall) and I have even seen the OrangegE > Wall, but I don't think hard copy documentation is the norm for VMS ' > any more than it would be for Unix.  d    G 	Depends what you buy.  I have a drawer full of the entire VMS doc set.c? 	It no longer takes up a wall.  It takes up a nice size cubiclef 	drawer.   				Robo   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 08:19:51 GMT! From: swmoretp@aol.com (SWMORETP)o& Subject: DEC Books and Manuals on eBay9 Message-ID: <20020613041951.09322.00000994@mb-mg.aol.com>0  5 We have some Digital (DEC) books and manuals on eBay.r% Here they are with their item number.m1 PDP-8 Introduction to Programming by Digital     o
 2031611592- Original Digital (DEC) VAX User's Manual     s
 20316123952 Original Digital VAX File Applications Manual     
 2031612843- Vintage PDP, VAX History/Info Book by DEC    y= *Computer Engineering, A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design h
 2031613920. VAX Software Source Book by Digital (DEC)     
 2031614828/ PDP-11 Microcomputer Processors by Digital       2031615620 :/ Labratory Computer Handbook by Digital, 71      
 20316163300 PDP-11 Microcomputer Processor Handbook DEC      2031617292 b   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 07:02:58 -0700( From: maryh1nge@hotmail.com (Alan Frame)$ Subject: DECServer break key problem= Message-ID: <abe7363f.0206130602.2d5e56ef@posting.google.com>c  
 Hello All,  7 Can anyone please help me with a DECServer 700 problem.tD The Decserver is used to access terminals from a LAN, and one of theF terminals requires a "break" condition to be applied to the RS232 line) before it will bring up the login prompt. B I have tried everything that I can see in the configuration of the3 server, but can't get it to pass a break condition.t1 Has anyone any ideas ( firstly, can it be done?).s  B For completeness, I telnet into the decserver using the appropriteC port ( 2005 ), and from there need to be able to map a key that theiD decserver will understand and pass the break condition down the port to the terminal.  ) Any suggestions would be gladly received.l   thanks in advanceu   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:06:55 GMTk5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>h Subject: Re: DECWindows "hang"2 Message-ID: <3G1O8.18$SR5.365711@news.cpqcorp.net>   What is the graphics adapter?e  D What is the contents of DECW$SERVER_0_ERROR.LOG when you are in this
 condition?  & Are the LEDs blinking on the keyboard?  G The only "blue/gray" screen I can think of (and I'm just guessing here,rG because I can't see what you mean by blue/gray) is that it is in screen  saver mode.    _Frede   Joe wrote in message ... >OpenVMS 7.1-1H2 >DWMotif V1.2-4  >Alpha 4100- >-B >We have a frequent problem with the console that works roughly asF >follows: DECWindows is started during boot, next morning no login box9 >- just a "blue-gray screen." Telnet in (or such) and runcB >sys$manager:decw$startup. Go home at end of the day. Come in next4 >morning and repeat with sys$manager:decw$startup... > G >This has been mostly an annoyance. If console access is needed we just E >login other than via the console restarting DECWindows as above. The B >afternoon during a power outtage when we were on UPC there was noC >other way in so the "blue-gray screen with no login box" was a wee.	 >problem.q >iG >I'm guessing we have something that "dumps on the console" so to speaknE >somewhere along the line during nightly batching (what ever it is it E >probably worked well enough when the Alpha was a VAX and the consolen- >was a VT but that was then and this is now).  >lF >Other than search through more source code than I care to looking forD >matchs on something like OPA I was thinking put an alarm ACE on theG >OPA devices then work backwards from whatever messages might be in the-4 >operator log to an offending batch job and program. >r >$ set sec/class=device -oD >   /acl=(alarm=security,option=default,access=success+failure) opa0 >$ set sec/class=device -rD >   /acl=(audit=security,option=default,access=success+failure) opa0 >  >and then (for instance) >  >$ open/write foo opa0:/ >$ write foo "hello" > G >1) Generates no opcom message and leaves nothing in the audit log as I  >guess I'm expecting.  >wG >2) Turns the console into a "dumb terminal" displaying "hello" until IaD >do a Ctl-F2 to restore the windowing system and doesn't give me the, >"blue-gray screen" I guess I was expecting. >o >Anyone have any ideas?t >n >tia >joe   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:14:43 +0200o2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at> Subject: Re: DECWindows "hang"G Message-ID: <3d08a8b7$0$17808$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>h  F "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag, news:3G1O8.18$SR5.365711@news.cpqcorp.net... > What is the graphics adapter?r >eF > What is the contents of DECW$SERVER_0_ERROR.LOG when you are in this > condition? >-( > Are the LEDs blinking on the keyboard? > I > The only "blue/gray" screen I can think of (and I'm just guessing here,eI > because I can't see what you mean by blue/gray) is that it is in screend
 > saver mode.  >y > _Freda >i > Joe wrote in message ... > >OpenVMS 7.1-1H2 > >DWMotif V1.2-4a
 > >Alpha 4100e > > D > >We have a frequent problem with the console that works roughly asH > >follows: DECWindows is started during boot, next morning no login box; > >- just a "blue-gray screen." Telnet in (or such) and runyD > >sys$manager:decw$startup. Go home at end of the day. Come in next6 > >morning and repeat with sys$manager:decw$startup... > > I > >This has been mostly an annoyance. If console access is needed we justdG > >login other than via the console restarting DECWindows as above. TheqD > >afternoon during a power outtage when we were on UPC there was noE > >other way in so the "blue-gray screen with no login box" was a wee. > >problem.s > >nI > >I'm guessing we have something that "dumps on the console" so to speaksG > >somewhere along the line during nightly batching (what ever it is it-G > >probably worked well enough when the Alpha was a VAX and the consolep/ > >was a VT but that was then and this is now).r > >rH > >Other than search through more source code than I care to looking forF > >matchs on something like OPA I was thinking put an alarm ACE on theI > >OPA devices then work backwards from whatever messages might be in thea6 > >operator log to an offending batch job and program. > >e > >$ set sec/class=device -.F > >   /acl=(alarm=security,option=default,access=success+failure) opa0 > >$ set sec/class=device --F > >   /acl=(audit=security,option=default,access=success+failure) opa0 > >  > >and then (for instance) > >s > >$ open/write foo opa0:u > >$ write foo "hello" > >-I > >1) Generates no opcom message and leaves nothing in the audit log as I  > >guess I'm expecting.  > >oI > >2) Turns the console into a "dumb terminal" displaying "hello" until I?F > >do a Ctl-F2 to restore the windowing system and doesn't give me the. > >"blue-gray screen" I guess I was expecting. > >o > >Anyone have any ideas?n > >h > >tia > >joe >  >   J I guess what he means is that he only has the background without the login window. F We had the same here, and there was no reasonable info in the logfile.C The only immediate solution was a @decw$startup restartfrom another 	 terminal.-I I solved it by doing an autogen with feedback, which adjusted a couple ofS! parameters (I dont recall which).>   Ren   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 15:44:31 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)i Subject: Re: DECWindows "hang"0 Message-ID: <aeaekv$phj$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  | In article <3d08a8b7$0$17808$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>, "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at> writes:K >I guess what he means is that he only has the background without the login  >window.G >We had the same here, and there was no reasonable info in the logfile.rD >The only immediate solution was a @decw$startup restartfrom another
 >terminal.J >I solved it by doing an autogen with feedback, which adjusted a couple of" >parameters (I dont recall which).  - Had the same. The parameters in question wered  RESHASHTBL   SCSCONNCNTi
  ACP_HDRCACHE 
  GH_EXEC_CODEuK At least these have been modified by an AUTOGEN and I had to revert them inlN order to solve the problem. The last one is supposed to be the one that caused$ the problem but I never verified it.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmanno  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:21:46 -0400o- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>R% Subject: DECwindows various questionsh, Message-ID: <3D086416.9F8F87F9@videotron.ca>  K As I understand, having a DECTERM actually involves 2 processes. The actual J VMS/DCL process, and a DECTERM process that handles the window and decterm menus etc. Correct ?    M When one issues @SYS$SYSTEM:SHUTDOWN  from a DECTERM on a workstation runningXJ decwindows, when the time comes to kill off all the processes during finalM phases of shutdown,  what mechanism exists that preserves the DECTERM processfL that manages the session executing the shutdown, but kills off other DECTERM and DECwindows applications ?d    K Also, I have rebooted my machine after cleaning up all the navel lint in it D and lubricating the fans because they had become very noisy (note to7 engineers: DO NOT USE RIVETS TO AFFIX FANS TO CHASSIS).l  M And now, I get a message from a Fileview windows of the Session manager with:i 	"G X Toolkit Warning: locale not supported by C library. locale unchanged"h' mwm: Invalid icon bitmap for VUE$MASTERt  K If I start Bookreader, I get the same first line (but not the second line).s  M Any hints on what I should be looking at ? Would it be the installaion of C++rJ that would have messed something which woudl have appeared during the next reboot ?   This is VAX-VMS 7.2e   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 07:56:15 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ) Subject: Re: DECwindows various questionsr3 Message-ID: <wtEKMlGQCxvJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3D086416.9F8F87F9@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:M > As I understand, having a DECTERM actually involves 2 processes. The actual1L > VMS/DCL process, and a DECTERM process that handles the window and decterm > menus etc. Correct ? >   G    Wrong.  This is not UNIX.  The window manager is a separeate process G    and handles some of the windoing issues for all windows.  Everything     else is one process.-  H    Unlike UNIX, VMS does not use a separate process to provide a commandF    parser, it uses a separate mode within the same process (supervisorG    vs. user).  This is one of the major design differences between UNIXeG    and VMS:  UNIX tries to do everything in two modes (kernel or user),/B    VMS takes advantage of four (kernel, executive, supervisor, and	    user).    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:16:39 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>k) Subject: Re: DECwindows various questionsM2 Message-ID: <bP1O8.20$YS5.425074@news.cpqcorp.net>  G Well, perhaps this is just a slight misinterpretation of the statement.t  J DECterms are handled by a DECterm "controller" process.  This is the thingI that creates the pseudo terminal devices, creates the DECterm window, and  draws to it.  I Typically a DECterm, just like a "real" terminal, will have a user loggedy% in, and a process associated with it.t  K So, 2 processes.  Although a single controller process usually handles manymJ DECterms, so if you have 5 DECterms, you don't have 10 processes, but moreI typically 6 if they are all interactive user processes connected to each.4  H So why isn't a DECterm killed when you are shutting down?  Well, what isI actually happening is that the other interactive user processes are beingnK killed, which as a side effect is also causing the DECterms associated withdJ them to be killed when their reference counts on the psuedo device goes to zero.r      Bob Koehler wrote in message ...6 >In article <3D086416.9F8F87F9@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei& <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:G >> As I understand, having a DECTERM actually involves 2 processes. Ther actualE >> VMS/DCL process, and a DECTERM process that handles the window andF decterm  >> menus etc. Correct ?i >> >yH >   Wrong.  This is not UNIX.  The window manager is a separeate processH >   and handles some of the windoing issues for all windows.  Everything >   else is one process. >lI >   Unlike UNIX, VMS does not use a separate process to provide a commandtG >   parser, it uses a separate mode within the same process (supervisordH >   vs. user).  This is one of the major design differences between UNIXH >   and VMS:  UNIX tries to do everything in two modes (kernel or user),C >   VMS takes advantage of four (kernel, executive, supervisor, andn
 >   user). >R   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:48:28 -0400 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>.* Subject: Re: DEFINE KEY in EDTINI.EDT File2 Message-ID: <3D08949C.5D656B3F@firstdbasource.com>   Barry Skidmore wrote:t > N > I need some help with defining a key sequence in the EDTINI.EDT file for theQ > EDT editor.  I have looked at the "Introduction to EDT" documentation, but need  > some additional help.e > N > I am trying to define the F17 key to press the PF4 key (Commmand:) and enter3 > the command "Exit" followed by a carriage return.s >   > Any help would be appreciated.% > -----------------------------------t > Barry Skidmore% > skidmore at alternate-venue dot orgk" > Hobbyist MicroVAX 3100-40 System > Running OpenVMS 7.2s% > -----------------------------------o    F10 is already set to "EXT EXIT"   no need to define a new key... -- h Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163d7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.comh Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)o 704-236-4377 (Mobile)n   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 08:11:19 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: DEFINE/TRANS=TERM3 Message-ID: <Pi48kwbCBuzP@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  w In article <01KIUUXX8ES696WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:nF >> /TRANS=TERM works whether the equivalence name is a physical deviceE >> name, a yes/no parameter value or the number of peanuts in the bageE >> on my desk expressed in roman numerals.  Its effect is to suppressn@ >> further automatic iterative logical name translation.  And it* >> is successful in doing that.  It works. >> cF >> If you think that it fails in some other ill defined purpose, you'd9 >> better define that purpose before elaborating further.o > F > I never said it didn't work.  I was just wondering what the initial E > reason for introducing it was (save CPU cycles, protect users from GG > unexpected behaviour if they define a logical which is the same as a lJ > device name to which another logical points, stop iterative translation . > when this is desired for other reasons etc).  C Put yourself in the position of the VMS 4.0 developers.  You've got ? an existing logical name system.  The users of that system haverD implemented their own support for an equivalent of "/TRANS=TERMINAL"A by encoding underscores in front of their equivalence names.  Andn> they've implemented support for "/TRANS=CONCEALED" in the same1 manner.  Everyone agrees that it's an ugly kluge.e  D The "users" in question are RMS and various system services.  You're@ setting up for a major O/S upgrade and a major RMS rewrite is an integral part of that upgrade.  G Since you are in the design phase, it is easy for you to create variousa= flags on logical names and their translations.  /NAME=NOALIASnC /NAME=CASEBLIND /TRANS=CONCEALED /TRANS=TERMINAL, etc, etc.  You dow@ not want to have to go back and add flags later and do _another_A RMS rewrite.  Since the users have already made it clear that thea> flags for /TRANS=TERMINAL and /TRANS=CONCEALED are useful, you design them in.G  A So we've pushed the question back to why the 3.x (or was it 2.x?)s@ developers started using leading underscores.  And I'm convincedA that the answer is to protect users from unexpected behavior whent: their logical names happen to match physical device names.  8 I can imagine a 2.x user with an application using DRA1:? and DRA2:.  Then the disk drives are upgraded and the directoryp; structure is moved over to DRA3: mounted as USERDISK1.  TheIB system manager has clued folks in on the need to use logical names= instead of device names.  But references to DRA1 and DRA2 area9 buried pretty deeply.  So the application maintainer putsy< some logical name definitions in the application setup file:   $ DEFINE DRA1 USERDISK1: $ DEFINE DRA2 USERDISK1:  A The system manager harvests the DRAx devices and recycles them as-  user space mounted as USERDISK2:  > The next thing you know, the end users can't get to their homeG directories on USERDISK2 because DRA2 has been redirected to USERDISK1.g  C This scenario is sufficiently obvious that the VMS developers would0< have been well motivated to provide a mechanism for stating:< "This logical name points to an actual physical device name.< That device is the one that this logical name is intended to3 reference.  Please don't translate it any further".   B The mechanism that the VMS developers provided in response to thisG perceived need was a leading underscore placed on the equivalence name.e  6 With the 4.x rewrite, the mechanism became /TRANS=TERM   	John Briggs   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 02 19:04:25 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)w Subject: Re: ECO Patches) Message-ID: <P0Xo03upIfDv@elias.decus.ch>v  d In article <d0141774.0206120130.1f901214@posting.google.com>, issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho) writes:\ > p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote in message news:<V9E7eaASvE$B@elias.decus.ch>...f >> In article <d0141774.0206110303.3a600ed@posting.google.com>, issinoho@slayme.com (issinoho) writes:
 >> > Guys, >> > .> >> > A few questions about ECO patches, if you will indulge... >> > yK >> > 1. If I have a series of dependent kits, do I have to install and theneG >> > reboot after each one, or can I install them all at the same time?r >> > a >> oM >> There's no way I'll reboot after every kit. It simply takes too much time. B >> If necessary I will do a minimum boot to install multiple kits. >>   > H > Will kits that check for dependent kits having been pre-installed pass0 > this check if a reboot has not been performed? >   M I haven't come across any which haven't. That doesn't mean it can't happen ofmN course. I always read the readme and cover letter to see what they have to sayG about reboots. IIRC one or more of the V7.3 ECO kits warn of the systemh8 becoming unstable unless rebooted immediately, so I did.  N In the latter case I grouped the other ECOs to minimize the number of reboots.  O >> You need to analyze the cover letters carefully to determine what you can do  >> safely and what you can't.n >>  = >> > 2. What's the best way of applying the kits clusterwide?  >>  / >> Do you have shared or separate system disks?  >> l > ' > Separate system disks, no satellites.  >   , A rolling upgrade is probably the way to go.   >> > uF >> > 3. How can I tell which, if any, kits are currently applied on my
 >> > systems?n >> p! >> For kits for VMS V7.2 onwards:s >>   >> $ PRODUCT SHOW HISTORYr >> aH >> For earlier versions, on Alpha, look in SYS$UPDATE:VMSINSTAL.HISTORY. >>   >> > s( >> > 4. Any other gotchas to be wary of? >> > o >> a5 >> What version of VMS are you running? VAX or Alpha?c > @ > Mixed architecture, however VAX's will be retired (very) soon. >   N Ah. That was 2 questions really. I should have asked what the version _number_1 was. Folks may remember version specific gotchas.h   __
 Paul Sture Switzerlande   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 09:31:21 -0700 From: mjriain@hotmail.com (Mat)   Subject: Grant "$ level access"?= Message-ID: <1651e909.0206130831.7a871d33@posting.google.com>    Hello!  O Can someone tell me how I would grant "$ level access" to a user under VMS 7.1?    Cheers,1     MJR2   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 16:39:03 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)b$ Subject: Re: Grant "$ level access"?0 Message-ID: <aeahr7$qoo$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  _ In article <1651e909.0206130831.7a871d33@posting.google.com>, mjriain@hotmail.com (Mat) writes: P >Can someone tell me how I would grant "$ level access" to a user under VMS 7.1?  H What do you mean with "$ level access"? The dollar prompt is the default4 "interface" unless you run some captive environment.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmann   H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:04:08 GMT 8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)$ Subject: Re: Grant "$ level access"?2 Message-ID: <s85O8.31$SZ5.735355@news.cpqcorp.net>  > In article <1651e909.0206130831.7a871d33@posting.google.com>, ! mjriain@hotmail.com (Mat) writes:"  8 >Can someone tell me how I would grant "$ level access"  >to a user under VMS 7.1?h  J Well, you might need to look at the /INTERACTIVE and/or /ACCESS qualifiers in the AUTHORIZE utility.n  J If this is a captive account that access the system under control of some K software other than (or in addition to) OpenVMS -- perhaps a "menu system"  C of some sort -- then that software may be what needs to be changed.r  A If you can tell us what you mean by "$ level access", and how thetB user currently uses the system (what kind of access?), we might be  able to offer other suggestions.   -- nK     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USAr8                        Compaq is now part of the New HP!H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:41:13 -0400s1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>gB Subject: Re: How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ?2 Message-ID: <3D0892E9.B14C9DE3@firstdbasource.com>   Hoff Hoffman wrote:  > e > In article <399504c6.0206111723.38278c32@posting.google.com>, fs63@volcanomail.com (Tim C.) writes:eE > :We have an Ethernet network of VAXes running DECNet and VMS 5.5-2.o8 > :How can I tell which version of DECNet I am running ? > C >   The DECnet version tracks the OpenVMS version -- the version ofy@ >   OpenVMS is always the version of DECnet, as DECnet itself is@ >   specifically built for each OpenVMS release.  (Sometimes theA >   DECnet displays will confuse matters, and will refer to other-> >   versions and other OpenVMS releases.  These DECnet version9 >   displays are unfortunately incorrect and misleading.): > D >   As for the DECnet Phase you are running, there are various ways. >  >   One of the most common:c >  >   $ RUN SYS$SYSTEM:NCP
 >   SHOW EXEC  > B >   Alternatively, look in the upper word of the value returned byB >   the following itemcode -- this item is available on all recent >   OpenVMS releases.t >  >         $! on Phase IV:t( >         $ x=f$getsyi("DECNET_VERSION") >         $ sho sym xs >           X = "00040000" >  >         $! on Phase V:( >         $ x=f$getsyi("DECNET_VERSION") >         $ sho sym xn >           X = "00050E04" > H >   You can also check the name of the DECnet ancillary control process.F >   The following command assumes V7.1 and later because of the use ofE >   PIPE, but the operation works across all recent OpenVMS versions:  > 7 >   $ pipe show sys | search sys$input net,acp/matc=ande > F >   If you see NETACP, you are running Phase IV.  If NET$ACP, Phase V. > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------L >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comP >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------N >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com  F But since he is running VMS 5.5-2 it is highly unlikely these commands will work :)   -- - Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163o7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.com: Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)- 704-236-4377 (Mobile)v   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:26:00 -0400s' From: "Zhiqing Liu" <zliu@cs.iupui.edu>D? Subject: How to convert console from serial to graphics on DS10r; Message-ID: <hb0O8.37681$_h5.1592131@news20.bellglobal.com>E  
 Good morning,o  H I recently received a DS10 without a graphics card. Adding to it an ElsaJ GLoria Synergy card gives me simply an banner page of the card followed byI an empty blue screen. It appears to boot, via the serial console, to someoG unknown systems, to which nobody has access. I am trying to convert theeF console to graphics so that a fresh operating system can be installed.  I I know that, once I have SRM, this can be done by setting the SRM console E variable to graphics. My problem here is that I don't have a terminaliL around. Hooking up a PC HyperTerminal via a null modem connection to the 1stH serial port of DS10 shows a little bit garbage on the HyperTerminal. TheL settings of the HyperTerminal are 9600, 8N1 with software handshaking, which  works just fine to my PWS 500AU.  L Am I missing anything here? Is there any other way to convert the console toK graphics? How can I reset the machine to its true factory default, which, Ii8 think, allows me to select which console should be used?   Thank you very much6 Zhiqing    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:11:27 -0400u1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>sC Subject: Re: How to convert console from serial to graphics on DS10j2 Message-ID: <3D08B61F.9C484AFC@firstdbasource.com>   Zhiqing Liu wrote: >  > Good morning,r > J > I recently received a DS10 without a graphics card. Adding to it an ElsaL > GLoria Synergy card gives me simply an banner page of the card followed byK > an empty blue screen. It appears to boot, via the serial console, to someoI > unknown systems, to which nobody has access. I am trying to convert thelH > console to graphics so that a fresh operating system can be installed. > K > I know that, once I have SRM, this can be done by setting the SRM consoleTG > variable to graphics. My problem here is that I don't have a terminalIN > around. Hooking up a PC HyperTerminal via a null modem connection to the 1stJ > serial port of DS10 shows a little bit garbage on the HyperTerminal. TheN > settings of the HyperTerminal are 9600, 8N1 with software handshaking, which" > works just fine to my PWS 500AU. > N > Am I missing anything here? Is there any other way to convert the console toM > graphics? How can I reset the machine to its true factory default, which, It: > think, allows me to select which console should be used? >  > Thank you very muchc	 > Zhiqingp  F garbage indicates an incorrect baud rate. try resetting it starting atF 4800, 9600, 19200. I don't recall if there is a switch on that box for console vs. serial.  -- i Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163e7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.come   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 06:51:56 -0700+ From: pierre.bru@spotimage.fr (Bru, Pierre)h& Subject: Re: how to renew a vmasmail ?= Message-ID: <1c0e37b1.0206130551.42d7a38c@posting.google.com>h  F I have a procedure that read new emails of some users with "read/new",E do whatever is needed with the emails and move them to a folder namede
 "oldmail".  E sometimes, I need to procees again old emails. usually, I go into ther? oldmail folder and forward the requested old emails to the same B account in order to have them again in the newmail folder with the newmail flag set.a  F for a couple of old emails, that's OK. for a hundred of them, it would? be simpler to move them to the newmail folder (for ex. with the B graphical interface) and re-new them (set again the newmail flag).  A reading old posts in the group with google, I found some articles C telling to hack sys$system:vmsmail_profile.data (I did no found thee articles quoted by Martin).a   Pierre.s  E PS. NO. I can NOT modify the procedure to change "read/new" to "read"m  d hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote in message news:<ae8f1e$jcq$1@web1.cup.hp.com>...m > In article <1c0e37b1.0206120351.32c62090@posting.google.com>, pierre.bru@spotimage.fr (Bru, Pierre) writes:e > E > :is modifing the right record of sys$system:vmsmail_profile.dat the I > :only way/hach of renewing mails moved/copied into the newmail folder ?s > 	 >   No.  . > ( >   Terse questions beget terse answers. > J >   What question did you intend to ask?  Please provide us with the usualK >   information requests -- platform, version information, some background tD >   on the particular problem you are trying to solve, etc.  Thanks! >  > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------P >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    P >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------N >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:53:10 +0200-E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>e4 Subject: Re: howto create self-extracting zip files?+ Message-ID: <3D085D76.2901548E@mediasec.de>   J > Encryption support is part of OpenVMS as of V7.3-1 with the inclusion ofD > CDSA (Common Data Security Architecture) in the operating system.    Not having the manual, r8 - is it extensible (e.g., using ECC instead of RSA/DSS)?1 - will it support Class 2 and 3 smarcard readers?o  < > When/if you'll see signed patches is yet to be determined.  F Make sure you consult the right people on getting the trust hierarchy E right, especially in establishing the root/CA certificate. Sometimes ,2 paper can be the correct communications channel...   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 07:39:39 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)m4 Subject: Re: howto create self-extracting zip files?3 Message-ID: <I3RcE+ovcyq0@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  a In article <ae96lc025j4@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> writes: 3 > Wayne Morrison <Wayne.Morrison@compaq.com> wrote:wP >> Encryption support is part of OpenVMS as of V7.3-1 with the inclusion of CDSAL >> (Common Data Security Architecture) in the operating system.  See the newP >> manual "Open Source Security for OpenVMS Alpha Volume 1: Common Data Security( >> Architecture" for additional details. > L > I can't resist asking, where on earth are we supposed to see these manuals: > unless we're part of the Field Test (which I'm not). :^)  + When they arrive with the released version.   7 The Field Test CDROMs were also available for purchase.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:17:43 -0700A' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>s+ Subject: Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plansq+ Message-ID: <3D08B797.31F1268E@caltech.edu>    JF Mezei wrote:f >  > Larry Kilgallen wrote:I > > Who would have thought that someone from Gartner would not know aboutt( > > little-endian vs big-endian issues ? > L > I realise that this is an issue that one must consider when doing porting.M > However, for most application software, is that a show stopper or just somea$ > small issue to must be looked at ?  N I suppose it depends on what software you are running.  If the vendor supportsO both platforms and some sort of platform neutral data dump then you can migrate I your data without too much trouble.  But if no such platform neutral dumpoJ format exists and your data is in any way binary, you're in for a world ofN pain.  Writing a program to swap the bytes in data files is doable if you haveQ 100% complete documentation on the data format, and may be impossible otherwise. gK I've run into this often enough. For instance, consider this simple format:u  * int4 (length count) | data of that length 7   | int4 (length count) | data of that length  | etc...   @ If you know the format then converting it is easy.  If you don't& there's no simple way to convert it.     Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:06:43 +0200KE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>v+ Subject: Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plansd) Message-ID: <3D08C313.8A71EB@mediasec.de>t  I > Writing a program to swap the bytes in data files is doable if you haveaG > 100% complete documentation on the data format, and may be impossible  > otherwise.  H That's why Fortran can do it out of the box with DEC's extensions to the? OPEN statement, and all non-record oriented languages are lost.    	Jan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:37:06 GMTd* From: Steven Whatley <swhatley@blkbox.com>+ Subject: Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer planspC Message-ID: <SS3O8.225404$Oa1.20956696@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>q  " John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote:J > Hewlett-Packard is enticing owners of its once-popular, now-doomed e3000L > servers to buy HP-UX or Linux systems. The most likely migration path willI > be to HP 9000 servers running HP-UX, although buyers could also move to.K > Intel-based ProLiant servers. HP is using a number of migration programs,oJ > including one that provides e3000 customers with "loaner" HP 9000s untilL > they can make a full transition.It's also doing free migration assessmentsA > through HP Services and software and hardware trade-in rebates.w  I I worked on a 3000 with MPE for about 9 months.  Other than its filesysemlH being so flat (dir.only1subdirlevel) I liked MPE.  I really liked MPE/iXC or was that MPEX.  I was wandering what HP was going to do with MPElA after getting VMS.  Now I wonder what HP is going to do with VMS.r   Later, Steven   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 17:28:52 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)i+ Subject: Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plansb, Message-ID: <aeakok$1r3b$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  + In article <3D08B797.31F1268E@caltech.edu>,e*  David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: |> JF Mezei wrote: |> > e |> > Larry Kilgallen wrote:dL |> > > Who would have thought that someone from Gartner would not know about+ |> > > little-endian vs big-endian issues ?i |> > aO |> > I realise that this is an issue that one must consider when doing porting.hP |> > However, for most application software, is that a show stopper or just some' |> > small issue to must be looked at ?d |> >Q |> I suppose it depends on what software you are running.  If the vendor supportssR |> both platforms and some sort of platform neutral data dump then you can migrateL |> your data without too much trouble.  But if no such platform neutral dumpM |> format exists and your data is in any way binary, you're in for a world ofyQ |> pain.  Writing a program to swap the bytes in data files is doable if you have$T |> 100% complete documentation on the data format, and may be impossible otherwise. N |> I've run into this often enough. For instance, consider this simple format: |> a- |> int4 (length count) | data of that length r: |>   | int4 (length count) | data of that length  | etc... |>  C |> If you know the format then converting it is easy.  If you don'tk) |> there's no simple way to convert it.  y |>  B If it were me, especially considering how inexpensive (realtive toF the value of business data being lost) while I still had the original C machines, programs and data, I would write programs to read the old-B and write it out at the highest available accuracy in ASCII.  ThatE would mean that a bunch of int4's would take up a lot of storage, butVF at least you could be fairly certain of being able to import them backE into what ever platform end out moving too.  It would also seem to bea@ a good hedge against possibly undetectable, subtle losses in theD conversion process if you opt for trying to swap bits and bytes and  words and long words, etc.  F I'm actually surprised that none of the vendors courting other peoplesG business has written a generic program that can take a data descriptionl) and handle this conversion automatically.    bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:48:09 -0400 ! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>n4 Subject: Re: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL' Message-ID: <3D08BEB9.3AD971F0@vcu.edu>-  D Good points, David...  But, I didn't write that, just availed it off6 this very newsgroup..    Thanks for the corrections!!!   Jim0   "David J. Dachtera" wrote: >  > Jim Agnew wrote: > >mJ > > There is/was a book UNIX for VMS users, from digital press. I think it5 > > may be outta print, but you could check around...a > >3? > > plus, there is a cheat sheet i'll append to this message...n >  > A few minor corrections: > 7 > There is no direct parallel to logical names in UN*X.  > B > The shells do, however, have the concept of "local" symbols (notF > "exported") and global symbols (exported). AFAIK, SHOW SYMBOL/ALL isI > most closely akin to "set" with noparameters and SHOW SYMBOL/GLOBAL/ALL # > is most closely akin to printenv.  > J > INITIALIZE <> FORMAT. INIT is more closely akin to mkfs. Try INIT'ing anH > unformatted floppy (make sure it wasn't pre-formatted at the factory). > H > tar is a close parallel to BACKUP; however, UN*X does not support ANSI > labelled tapes.i > H > UN*X-land mount is necessary only for filesystems (floppies, CDs, diskJ > partitions, ramdrives, etc.). Since UN*X doesn't support labelled tapes,* > attempting to mount one seems illogical. > H > AFAIK, there is no direct parallel to DIRECTORY/FULL in UN*X land. "ls= > -l" is most closely akin to DIRECTORY/SIZE/DATE/PROTECTION.1 > F > SHOW DEVICE differs from df, although SHOW DEVICE/MOUNTED is closelyG > akin to the way df displays all mounted filesystems. However, df of a9J > specific filesystem *IS* akin to SHOW DEVICE/FULL, but only with respect > to MOUNTed disk volumes. > J > EXCHANGE has no direct parallel in UN*X, since UN*X lacks a concept suchI > as RMS. Files are just streams of bytes/bits. "dd" is most closely akincH > to cp-ing from a raw device to a file, or from a file to a raw device.I > "dd" from file to file only provides the ability to copy a portion of aCF > file instead of cp-ing the entire file. On VMS, you can do somethingF > similar to dd by MOUNTing a device /FOREIGN (tape, floppy or CD, for) > example) and then COPYing it to a file.V > E > AFAIK, mv can "move" files across filesystems. RENAME cannot "move"t* > files across volume (device) boundaries. > E > SET FILE/OWNER is most closely akin to chown. "chgrp" changes groupoD > associations of a UN*X file (no parallel in VMS other than setting > ACLs). > H > "less" goes "more" one step further since it allows scrolling back and= > forth and allows searching by regular expression (I think).  > A > Note also that F$TRANSLATE() has been superceded by F$TRNLNM().  >  > -- > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systems  > http://www.djesys.com/ > * > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:44:42 +0200t' From: JOUKJ <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>s9 Subject: Re: Mail masqurading with Compaq TCP/IP servicesh2 Message-ID: <3D083F5A.4010603@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>   Ari Weisz-Koves wrote:C > I'm a Unix guy struggling to find my feet on an OpenVMS host. I'muC > trying to configure what I'd call mail masquerading (or at least,-9 > sendmail calls it that) - I want mail from the host "y"-B > (user@y.x.com.au) to send out with the sender address changed toE > user@x.com.au instead. From what I can see from the TCP/IP services-G > manuals, I think what I'm after is a substitute domain but when I set E > up a substitute domain, the mail never leaves the host's mail queueiH > (it should be delivered to a smarthost handling the mail for the wholeH > domain) - I see the mail in the queue with the right sender addresses, > but going nowhere. >  oE > What I've tried is to set the subs domain okay using something like-F > tcpip$config -> set substitute_domain=(NOHIDDEN,name=x.com.au) (I've8 > also tried HIDDEN), then I set up a couple of logicalsF > TCPIP$SMTP_NO_SUBS_INBOUND and TCPIP$SMTP_ALTGATE_ALWAYS to tell theG > system not to treat the mail as local and to always use the smarthostcA > for delivery of non-local mail. But the mail doesn't get to theSH > smarthost, the VMS host still tries to deliver locally. No matter whatF > combinations of these logicals, gateway address, altgateways, HIDDENF > or NOHIDDEN on the subs domain I can't get it to go. Can anyone help& > me understand where I'm going wrong? >    >  mH > Here's my non-mangled SMTP config without any substitutions. Do I need > this zone setting? >  i > SMTP ConfigurationD >                                                                   	 > OptionsaB > Initial interval:   0 00:30:00.00       Address_max:    16      
 > NOEIGHT_BITrB > Retry interval:     0 01:00:00.00       Hop_count_max:  16      	 > NORELAYhB > Maximum interval:   3 00:00:00.00                               
 > TOP_HEADERSh >  e? > Timeout             Initial       Mail    Receipt       Data o > Terminate F >   Send:                   5          5          5          3         > 10 >   Receive:                5  >  n > Alternate gateway:  x.x.x.7- > General gateway:    x.x.x.7  >   ! > Substitute domain:  not definedr > Zone:               x.com.au  A Seems that you defined the zone and not the Substitute domain!!!!g       >  D  > Postmaster:         TCPIP$SMTPE > Log file:           SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$SMTP]TCPIP$SMTP_LOGFILE.LOG  >  e2 > Generic queue       Queues   Participating nodes >   $ > TCPIP$SMTP_TITAN_00    1     TITAN >  s	 > Thanks,n >  a > Ari.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:28:14 +0200i* From: "Sven Tieste" <sven.tieste@sw-hb.de>9 Subject: Re: Mail masqurading with Compaq TCP/IP servicess2 Message-ID: <ae9gn0$ifs$1@f40-3.zfn.uni-bremen.de>   Hello,1 in my opinion you should reset the zone settings.b4 We had a similar problem which was resolved by that.4 If your zone-settings are the same as in the logical( TCPIP$INET_DOMAIN the mails don't leave.? Also, set in substitute domain something like: hidden, xyz.com.w= Furthermore, set for the gateways an (valid) IP or if you use 9 a name make sure that it is in the host list (show host).w= Then set the known logical TCPIP$SMTP_NO_SUBS_DOMAIN_INBOUND.y1 I think you should restart the smtp service then.o regards, Sven  B Ari Weisz-Koves <ari_weisz@hotmail.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:2 361d85b2.0206121546.1b6455e7@posting.google.com...C > I'm a Unix guy struggling to find my feet on an OpenVMS host. I'meC > trying to configure what I'd call mail masquerading (or at least,99 > sendmail calls it that) - I want mail from the host "y"oB > (user@y.x.com.au) to send out with the sender address changed toE > user@x.com.au instead. From what I can see from the TCP/IP servicesbG > manuals, I think what I'm after is a substitute domain but when I set:E > up a substitute domain, the mail never leaves the host's mail queuewH > (it should be delivered to a smarthost handling the mail for the wholeH > domain) - I see the mail in the queue with the right sender addresses, > but going nowhere. > E > What I've tried is to set the subs domain okay using something like F > tcpip$config -> set substitute_domain=(NOHIDDEN,name=x.com.au) (I've8 > also tried HIDDEN), then I set up a couple of logicalsF > TCPIP$SMTP_NO_SUBS_INBOUND and TCPIP$SMTP_ALTGATE_ALWAYS to tell theG > system not to treat the mail as local and to always use the smarthosthA > for delivery of non-local mail. But the mail doesn't get to thelH > smarthost, the VMS host still tries to deliver locally. No matter whatF > combinations of these logicals, gateway address, altgateways, HIDDENF > or NOHIDDEN on the subs domain I can't get it to go. Can anyone help& > me understand where I'm going wrong? >  >iH > Here's my non-mangled SMTP config without any substitutions. Do I need > this zone setting? >z > SMTP Configuration >a	 > Options < > Initial interval:   0 00:30:00.00       Address_max:    16
 > NOEIGHT_BIT0< > Retry interval:     0 01:00:00.00       Hop_count_max:  16	 > NORELAYr# > Maximum interval:   3 00:00:00.00r
 > TOP_HEADERSs >:> > Timeout             Initial       Mail    Receipt       Data > Terminateo> >   Send:                   5          5          5          3 > 10 >   Receive:                5e >o > Alternate gateway:  x.x.x.7e > General gateway:    x.x.x.7  >o! > Substitute domain:  not definedo > Zone:               x.com.au >   > Postmaster:         TCPIP$SMTPE > Log file:           SYS$SPECIFIC:[TCPIP$SMTP]TCPIP$SMTP_LOGFILE.LOG- >i2 > Generic queue       Queues   Participating nodes > $ > TCPIP$SMTP_TITAN_00    1     TITAN >Q	 > Thanks,n >. > Ari.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 01:56:53 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)f9 Subject: Re: Mail masqurading with Compaq TCP/IP services-= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0206130056.22b418a3@posting.google.com>   r ari_weisz@hotmail.com (Ari Weisz-Koves) wrote in message news:<361d85b2.0206121546.1b6455e7@posting.google.com>...= > I want mail from the host "y" (user@y.x.com.au) to send out ; > with the sender address changed to user@x.com.au instead.   2 TCPIP> set conf smtp/subs=(hidden,name="x.com.au")  < You are correct. I'm not sure what a "smarthost" is, however= it may also be able to reprocess the sender address, in whichu) case you might not want to do it locally.   G > system not to treat the mail as local and to always use the smarthost A > for delivery of non-local mail. But the mail doesn't get to thep9 > smarthost, the VMS host still tries to deliver locally.,  D You are also correct the logical name TCPIP$SMTP_ALTGATE_ALWAYS doesB this (it's not dependent on the zone setting), defined thusly withD TRUE used as the value for clarity, you could use 1, ON or whatever:  . $ DEFINE/SYSTEM TCPIP$SMTP_ALTGATE_ALWAYS TRUE  ; However, I think what you missed is that this is checked onw= queue startup. To ensure it is not missed, restart your SMTP,  then try again to send mail.  " $ @SYS$STARTUP:TCPIP$SMTP_SHUTDOWN! $ @SYS$STARTUP:TCPIP$SMTP_STARTUPV   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:02:44 GMTi' From: Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com>m Subject: Re: MOZILLA and CSWB , Message-ID: <3D086DC2.9050809@theblakes.com>   Didier Morandi wrote:t  4 >Mozilla 1.0 up and running (without CSWB uninstall) >The build nr is 2002053008e9 >It does not seem to have the 128 bits encryption featurem >tF Mozilla 1.0 DOES have 128 bit security, the same as CSWB T1.0. Why do  you say it doesn't?i  F For the record, CSWB T1.0 is based on Mozilla 0.9.6, and is therefore C pretty old by now. CSWB V1.0 is based on a Mozilla 1.0 release and j should be available soon.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:07:28 +0200e' From: JOUKJ <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>  Subject: Re: MOZILLA and CSWB 2 Message-ID: <3D087CF0.4090007@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl>   Colin Blake wrote: > Didier Morandi wrote:t > 6 >> Mozilla 1.0 up and running (without CSWB uninstall) >> The build nr is 2002053008 ; >> It does not seem to have the 128 bits encryption feature  >>H > Mozilla 1.0 DOES have 128 bit security, the same as CSWB T1.0. Why do  > you say it doesn't?r > H > For the record, CSWB T1.0 is based on Mozilla 0.9.6, and is therefore E > pretty old by now. CSWB V1.0 is based on a Mozilla 1.0 release and u > should be available soon.  > G Will that version be able to use anonymous FTP to a FTP-server located o
 on an OPENVMSeE system? Netscape3.03 was able to do this but it apperently broken in   Mozilla.  
          Jouk    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:35:57 GMT,' From: Colin Blake <colin@theblakes.com>e Subject: Re: MOZILLA and CSWBt, Message-ID: <3D08839C.4070903@theblakes.com>   JOUKJ wrote:  I > Will that version be able to use anonymous FTP to a FTP-server located o > on an OPENVMSnG > system? Netscape3.03 was able to do this but it apperently broken in - > Mozilla. -  H I don't think its broken, I think the code was never added to deal with  an OpenVMS server!  E No, this is not fixed in Mozilla 1.0, because this is the first time s= I've seen it reported.  Please file a bug report in bugzilla.o   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:53:04 GMTu: From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <junk-laishev@mail.dls.net-junk>5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...iB Message-ID: <AbYN8.220204$Kp.19902484@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   Linus is moron.o  D > I've got the big book on VMS internals on the alpha, and I've read > through much of it.t >nB > So call me VMS-illiterate, but I know enough to be dangerous. In2 > particular, I know enough to dislike the system. >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:10:57 +0200k' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>r5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...t( Message-ID: <3D0861A1.2C025ADB@spam.not>  @ Thanks a lot. Since I obviously made some people angry by using A clear words about Linux/Linus, C/C++ and UNIX is wouldn't repeat r= them. Instead I only add a few comments what has been posted  ? and let the readers draw the conclusions by themselves. Thanks.t  ? I also suggest not to crosspost. It is not necessary to burden  9 Linus with this discussion. We know enough from his post.0   Bob Ceculski wrote:  > C > I posted recently in comp.os.linux.advocacy and got this responseI@ > from what appears to be no one other than Linus.  I don't knowB > if this was really him, maybe Larry can verify that, but here is > what he said so far ...  > ? > In article <d7791aa1.0206111620.771abf39@posting.google.com>,e+ > Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote:l> > >I guess while someone is rewriting linux in Bliss, they can> > >fix this kernel problem also ... this is why I will stay on
 > >VMS ...  F Bliss issn't a solution. The architecture and the design are problems.  H > Side note for people who don't like VMS (probably the big majority outH > there): the real news is not so much that a bug was found (*), but the? > fact that AMD got so involved with it.  Which is really good.h > J > For some of the nastier subtle bugs it really helps to have the kinds ofH > resources that sometimes the manufacturer is the only one to have (notD > just hardware like ICEs etc, but people who designed the thing and  > realize some of the pitfalls). > H > We usually do reasonably well even without the help, but people should$ > really take this as positive news. >  >                 Linusf > G > (*) I've got news for you: we've got bugs, and they get fixed all theb > time.u > + > Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote:a > >sJ > there are a lot of people in comp.os.vms who say you are VMS illiterate.G > Are you?  Why would one not like the bulletproof security, the worlds G > best clustering, the best realtime platform, the most scalable OS out K > there, the worlds fastest jvm?  Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel?dG > If VMS is so lousy, why did Bill Gates hire Cutler and use stolen VMStI > MICA code for NT if it was so lousy?  Why did Intel just grab the Alpha H > engineers and secrets so they can build a decent 64 bit platform?  WhyD > was it that the only environment left standing from 9/11 was a VMSK > cluster?  Is defcon a bunch of idiots when they claim VMS to be "Cool andr1 > unhackable"?  Why is Alpha/VMS so lousy to you?I >  > Message 18 in thread7 > From: Linus Torvalds (torvalds@penguin.transmeta.com)l3 > Subject: Re: Major Linux kernel bug found by AMD!o$ > Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy > View this article only > Date: 2002-06-12 12:08:41 PSTe > ? > In article <d7791aa1.0206121019.73a55b96@posting.google.com>,e+ > Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote:e > > K > >there are a lot of people in comp.os.vms who say you are VMS illiterate.r > >Are you?h > K > I learnt VMS before I learnt UNIX, but I've happily forgotten most of it.o  : I really doubt that he completely understood the concepts.  D > I've got the big book on VMS internals on the alpha, and I've read > through much of it.e  8 I doubt that he really understood the important details.  B > So call me VMS-illiterate, but I know enough to be dangerous. In2 > particular, I know enough to dislike the system. > > > >Why would one not like the bulletproof security, the worldsH > >best clustering, the best realtime platform, the most scalable OS out! > >there, the worlds fastest jvm?o > F > You left out "..  the worlds worst interfaces, the most braindamagedH > filesystems, and tied to the worlds most expensive dead-end hardware."  G Blaming the filesystems (I don't understand the plural) isn't the most VG enlightened comment about VMS I guess. I don't see the point. UNIX has  H no versions, no appropriate set of timestamps associated with each file E (let alone that's not easy to access this information) and no higher  E level facility like RMS which comes with commands like CONVERT or is r) integrated with other commands like TYPE.   C I also don't understand why pricing and EOL hardware qualifies for  D technical disadvantages of an OS. If that were the case Linux would 8 suffer from the same criticism as it runs on Alphas too.  I > Yes, tastes differ. And maybe it's gotten more useful since I last usedeG > it on a VAX (I've never actually used it on an alpha, despite readingsJ > about the internals). But the whole system is designed for databases and9 > large embedded usage, and it's positively user-hostile.y  F I don't understand how an OS can be designed specifically for DBs. He ? stated that already in his biography which has been written ando
 published H a bit too early or isn't there nothing to come from Linus? Anyway could  somebody explain what it means?E  H I also don't understand what he means with "embedded usage". I normally G understand "embedded systems" as quite different from workstations and i servers.  G I also never heard about "positively user-hostile". VMS is closed from tF the security point of view. Which makes it harder to break in even if I the system isn't administered properly because the default configuration  H is biased to security and not to ease of accessibility of all services. B I wonder whether VMS or UNIX would be regarded as user-hostile if E people were trained equally well on each system. There are in fact a i1 lot of comments about the user-hostility of UNIX.o  H > >If VMS is so lousy, why did Bill Gates hire Cutler and use stolen VMS' > >MICA code for NT if it was so lousy?  > E > Yeah, that's it. MS knows technology, and would be sure to bee-linet( > straight for the best stuff out there. >  > NOT.  G Admitted. This is no argument in favour of VMS but also no one against.   A OTOH more important is the fact that other first class engineers  B designed VMS when working at DEC long before M$ started to exist. A From the 20 years VAX/VMS aniverary booklet Cutler, Hustvedt and iF Lipman were project leaders, each responsible for a different part of A the operating system. These three names also show up in the blue  A ribbon task force that was responsible for simplyfying the first P! proposal of the VAX architecture.o  D I think that this background is worth mentioning when discussing OS ? design quality wrt people involved. I don't see any comparable M; qualifications of the three hackers that started something 0@ which eventually grew up into something what is now called UNIX.  G > > Why did Intel just grab the Alpha engineers and secrets so they cant# > > build a decent 64 bit platform?r > D > Ehh.. The alpha architecture is wonderfully clean, and those alphaG > engineers are studs. Most of the engineers went to AMD, btw, I think.o7 > Intel got the IP rights and the manufacturing plants.C  E It is true that some key engineers went to AMD. But I doubt that all bC good people moved to AMD because it is a lot of fun to work on the o@ Alpha instead of working on a RISC kernel processor that has to ! emulate the IA32 instruction set.   A But there was Alpha development work at Compaq after some people  A joined AMD and from what I know those went to Intel. A few still k% are at HPQ to do the shrinking AFAIK.g  D > The intel 64-bit people came largely from HP, and nobody sane ever/ > called the Itanic a "decent 64-bit platform".I  B This is exactly what happened: the IA64 was a joint project of HP A and Intel. But I don't see how to blame Compaq and VMS for that. cC It seems that there were good engineers at Compaq/DEC who designed  A the Alpha because even IBM couldn't beat it performance wise. It  ? seems also that Intel needed some fresh brains to overcome the a# problems with the IA64 development.   J > < Why was it that the only environment left standing from 9/11 was a VMS > >cluster?  > 0 > Because even terrorists won't touch the thing?   :-)u  F Yup. Because they've learned that they don't have a chance to break in ;-)    >                 Linus    --  ? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, 0@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:45:02 GMTt' From: Stuart Fuller <stufuller@usa.net> 5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... 0 Message-ID: <sn2aea.pkr.ln@dadsys1.fuller.local>   Brass Christof wrote:l >n >> aL >> I learnt VMS before I learnt UNIX, but I've happily forgotten most of it. > < > I really doubt that he completely understood the concepts. > E >> I've got the big book on VMS internals on the alpha, and I've read  >> through much of it. > : > I doubt that he really understood the important details.  & And your evidence for the above is...?  G >> You left out "..  the worlds worst interfaces, the most braindamagednI >> filesystems, and tied to the worlds most expensive dead-end hardware."0 > H > Blaming the filesystems (I don't understand the plural) isn't the mostH > enlightened comment about VMS I guess. I don't see the point. UNIX hasI > no versions, no appropriate set of timestamps associated with each fileeF > (let alone that's not easy to access this information) and no higherF > level facility like RMS which comes with commands like CONVERT or is+ > integrated with other commands like TYPE.n  K Plural?  Maybe you don't understand the details, either.  ODS-1, ODS-2 and ) ODS-5 for starters.   H > I also never heard about "positively user-hostile". VMS is closed fromG > the security point of view. Which makes it harder to break in even iftJ > the system isn't administered properly because the default configurationI > is biased to security and not to ease of accessibility of all services.lC > I wonder whether VMS or UNIX would be regarded as user-hostile ifoF > people were trained equally well on each system. There are in fact a3 > lot of comments about the user-hostility of UNIX.t  G Most of the "user-hostile" comments about Unix come from Windows users.e  o         Stum   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:45:01 GMTt' From: Stuart Fuller <stufuller@usa.net>n5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...v0 Message-ID: <uc2aea.ufr.ln@dadsys1.fuller.local>   Ruslan R. Laishev wrote: > Linus is moron.t > E >> I've got the big book on VMS internals on the alpha, and I've readr >> through much of it. >>C >> So call me VMS-illiterate, but I know enough to be dangerous. Ing3 >> particular, I know enough to dislike the system.D >>  * Well, that certainly was a useful comment.           Stuo   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:35:19 +0400S4 From: "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...-0 Message-ID: <3D089F97.7E2B1EE8@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU>  Q 	It's a typical unixoid view to VMS, I have not found nothing constructive in theo9 Linus's answers. Of course it's my pure personal opinion.r   Stuart Fuller wrote: >  > Ruslan R. Laishev wrote: > > Linus is moron.r > > G > >> I've got the big book on VMS internals on the alpha, and I've readu > >> through much of it. > >>E > >> So call me VMS-illiterate, but I know enough to be dangerous. Ina5 > >> particular, I know enough to dislike the system.  > >> > , > Well, that certainly was a useful comment. > 
 >         Stu    -- A Cheers,iF +OpenVMS [Sys|Net] HardWorker .......................................+E  Russia,Delta Telecom Inc,                    Cel:  +7 (901) 971-3222 E  191119,St.Petersburg,Transportny per. 3                     116-3222 F +http://starlet.deltatel.ru ................. SysMan rides HailStorm +   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:18:20 +0200.E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>$5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...e+ Message-ID: <3D08A9AC.380BBD7D@mediasec.de>   L > Plural?  Maybe you don't understand the details, either.  ODS-1, ODS-2 and > ODS-5 for starters.   N Well, ODS-2 and ODS-5 are very similar, and in fact every ODS-2 volume is alsoE an ODS-5 volume. And I doubt very many people can still find an ODS-15J volume anywhere. Most of the Y2K changes to VMS were in ODS-1 support, andF even DEC called them irrelevant. I sincerely doubt Linus has ever seenJ anything but an ODS-2 volume, given the time frame of his interaction with VMS.     	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 14:19:50 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)o5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...m, Message-ID: <aea9m6$1lce$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>  B In article <AbYN8.220204$Kp.19902484@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,=  "Ruslan R. Laishev" <junk-laishev@mail.dls.net-junk> writes:  |> Linus is moron.  E Well, that's your opinion.  Of course, it's mine too, but not for the  same reasons you have.  :-)y   |> oG |> > I've got the big book on VMS internals on the alpha, and I've read( |> > through much of it. |> >E |> > So call me VMS-illiterate, but I know enough to be dangerous. Ino5 |> > particular, I know enough to dislike the system.P   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -   ------------------------------  / Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:01:01 +0200 (MET DST)k& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de> Subject: Re: No new Alpha sales06 Message-ID: <200206130701.JAA09112@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,   here some more numbers:t  E IDEAS Top Performers - SAP - Standard Application Benchmark Two-tier   Client/Server Release 4:   Rank	Title				Steps		User	CPUs%   4	Sun Fire 15k			1.242.000	4.100	76./   6	Compaq AlpfaServer GS320	  823.000	2.720	32   D Andrew, as you can see the GS320 with less then the half of CPUs (32G versus 76) will have 2/3 of the power of the Sun Fire 15K. In the other < direction two GS320 will have the power of 1.5 Sun Fire 15k.   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:28:21 GMTs2 From: "Andrew Dodd" <Andrew.J.Dodd@HP.spamfreecom> Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesi2 Message-ID: <V51O8.15$nS5.395305@news.cpqcorp.net>   Rudolf,t  I To save Andrew getting himself into a lather we have discussed a few dayssF ago. There was a difference in version numbers of SAP, but also a dateI difference, between the two benchmarks. Plus a difference of opinion overSL what impact that might have 30 to 70%. Andrew seemed unwilling to accept anyK relevance between the two benchmarks unless the tests were redone on parity I of systems. In the ideal world he is right. But we don't live in the realo world.  L That benchmark does demonstrate the power of an Alpha processor, and I stillH have never lost an Alpha customer to SUN for performance reasons. When II have lost it is application availability - something which SUN understoodj and others didn't.   --" Andrew Dodd - not speaking for HP. Pre-Sales Account Consultant HP Computer Ltdo www.hp.com/uk/   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:56:17 GMTs* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Open Letter to HPB Message-ID: <5uWN8.216491$Gs.19907130@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:z+Shb8oO1eum@eisner.encompasserve.org...eK > In article <6mLN8.216474$Oa1.20252668@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill-& Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:   ...M  C > > Of course, you won't be able to get IA32-competitive price *or*: performancerC > > out of Itanic systems either - including McKinley and its later8 mini-clones. >g >n> > And as the article points out , the move is to Linux + IA32.D > Itanium is still a distant (2-4 year) thing for many, HP included.  I When even people like you abandon the "Just wait for McKinley!" cheer and L have to resort to disparaging the Sun 64-bit competition by returning to theI "IA32's commodity pricing model will rule!" mantra that hasn't panned outnI anywhere above the low end for many years now, it's *really* time for the3+ Itanic passengers to run for the lifeboats.i  C As for IA32's ability to encroach on Sun's core market, it might beu: different if there were a really solid and widely-acceptedJ high-processor-count server system available on IA32.  But the movement ifL anything appears to be in the other direction, IBM just having announced theF retirement of one of the few niche systems (Sequent) that made such anI attempt and both HP and Compaq last year having abandoned support for thesL 32-processor Unisys boxes (though IIRC IBM is developing a 16-processor XeonB platform, just in case an OS comes along that can make use of it).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:16:17 +02000E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>. Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP+ Message-ID: <3D0862E1.32186267@mediasec.de>   F >         And as the article points out , the move is to Linux + IA32.L >         Itanium is still a distant (2-4 year) thing for many, HP included.  H Neither of these is going to help anybody requiring a 64-bit system. ForM somebody in that situation, it's a binary or black-and-white decision: eithertK you can, or you can't. IA32 can't. SPARC, Alpha, MIPS, PowerPC, Hammer can.hK Compared to this competition, current IA64 implementations are both higher sJ in price _and_ lower in performance, thus their price/performance ratio is worse^2.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:21:50 +0200uE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>e Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP+ Message-ID: <3D08642E.138BC467@mediasec.de>e  D I agree it is a question of commitment, credibility and trust. It isF definitely also a question of corporate image - although a corporationL that is big enough can have more than one of them (for different audiences).  I I quite agree with Hoff that TV ads are the wrong way to go with specifictD regard to VMS. On the other hand, doing something similar to IBM andH presenting yourself as a purveyor of reliable business systems (whateverH they are actually running - nobody cares about the facts on TV) would beK a good idea for the new HP (and Compaq before) - that is what I read peoplenJ complaining about here, that Compaq presented itself _only_ as a vendor ofI mass-market non-brand items. Such a public position implicitly discredits $ that "other half" of their business.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:03:22 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP. Message-ID: <3D088A0A.CE2AF7E4@mindspring.com>   JF Mezei wrote:u  N > And in a way, as long as you continue to have light, music and drinks on theL > slowly sinking ship, isn't it better to stay on it instead of venturing inN > vold waters or boarding some rickety old ship without heat, food or drinks ? >aM > And if the rescue ship ends up sinking before it gets to you, you can stillI1 > board the rickety old ship that is standing by.l  3 See, though, that's where this analogy breaks down. 9 Although many of the folks here (in c.o.v.) like to thinkI; that all the neighboring ships are old and rickety, they'red9 really not. Many of them are just as luxurious, they justt= serve a different cuisine and the staff may speak a differente1 language. You *COULD* be just as happy aboard then0 other ships as you are aboard the Good Ship VMS.  5 (Well, and then there's the Bad Ship Microsoft, wherea9 they feed you "dogfood" (Cutler's word) and tell you it'se9 foie gras and truffles. And the millions of people lockedg6 down in steerage stupidly believe it because there are, a lot of varieties of dogfood they can eat.)  8 Well, I think I've sailed off with this analogy about as: far as it'll go, and it's now likely to sink under its own weight. Bon voyage!    Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:08:42 -0400t2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP. Message-ID: <3D088B4A.2559679A@mindspring.com>   sms@antinode.org wrote:   E > >   That decision would be solely to your own detriment, of course.e >iJ >    Life is finite.  I'd prefer to catch up on thermodynamics if I had to! > pick a topic for further study.p  0 In the end, of course, thermodynamics will catch up on you. :-)   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:42:19 -0700e' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>h Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP+ Message-ID: <3D08BD5B.2FE9D5E6@caltech.edu>s   Hoff Hoffman wrote:   J >   Please think of what products you see advertised on (US) TV.  You willH >   see (often long-running) brand-recognition ads, and you will see adsH >   for mass-commodity consumer products.  These ads are all targeted atJ >   the vast numbers of potential consumers for the particular product(s).J >   The comumers for these products also happen to be the audience for TV;L >   TV is a good means of reaching the audience for these consumer products.  H I've seen ads from GE which cover their entire product line (jet enginesG to power generating stations to MRI machines.)  Few of the products areyJ consumer level and I'm not sure that brand recognition is really the pointG either.  It's more like  "we have lots of solutions - look here first". 2 Or maybe, "buy our stock, we're a strong company."  J More to the point, your competitor IBM has been running a lot of ads whichI are quite specific, for instance, for their Linux servers.  Paraphrased: tK freaked manager in empty computer room, "where did all the servers?".  Cool L and relaxed geeky sysop type nonchalantly replies "we replaced them all with that linux box from IBM".   > That's very much the same kind of ad as one might (should) runG advertising the safety of VMS clusters at widely separated datacenters.cB I'm pretty well convinced that few IT personnel under 30 know thatH VMS can run a cluster with nodes 50 miles apart, lose one site, and keepG going with no down time whatsoever.  They know about failovers, and hot I standby, but they really don't know clusters since none of them have ever 	 seen one.s   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:28:12 +0100d( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP) Message-ID: <3D08C81C.9E6C1D00@127.0.0.1>t   David Mathog wrote:r > @ > That's very much the same kind of ad as one might (should) runI > advertising the safety of VMS clusters at widely separated datacenters.nD > I'm pretty well convinced that few IT personnel under 30 know thatJ > VMS can run a cluster with nodes 50 miles apart, lose one site, and keepI > going with no down time whatsoever.  They know about failovers, and hot K > standby, but they really don't know clusters since none of them have evern > seen one.A   I have to agree.  H VMS is the solution looking for a problem. In the eyes of the average ITH person, it does the impossible. Sharing data over miles and miles, crossB mounting disks without corruption, shadowing, clustering, security model...  D VMS is still a well kept secret that ought to have a wider audience.D Some of the whippersnappers I talk to here are amazed at what VMS isE capable of, they need to hear it. Advertising in trade mags, well OK,e lets see some of it.  + I'm going for breakfast at Milliways now...:   -- 6( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot coml   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 10:49:57 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)s Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP3 Message-ID: <+F19kCt7rpYZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>   U In article <3D08BD5B.2FE9D5E6@caltech.edu>, David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:a  L > More to the point, your competitor IBM has been running a lot of ads whichK > are quite specific, for instance, for their Linux servers.  Paraphrased: lM > freaked manager in empty computer room, "where did all the servers?".  CooluN > and relaxed geeky sysop type nonchalantly replies "we replaced them all with > that linux box from IBM".X  C From what I have seen, the word "Linux" is only in your paraphrase.yD The Linux brand is not mentioned in versions of that ad I have seen.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:00:45 +0200rE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>tP Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)+ Message-ID: <3D085F3D.BBA5D8F8@mediasec.de>e  K A VPN just means that you are running a private network over a public link.tI I would think that a general definition might even not include encryptionoH at all, although any practical implementation will require it (otherwise3 the expectation of privacy might be unfounded 8-)).a  H IPSEC and SSL are two totally different mechanisms, because they work atG widely seperated layers of the stack - IPSEC is at the transport layer,tJ SSL is at the link (and thus basically application) layer. Both have theirM advantages and disadvantages. Both encrypt the payload, but IPSEC in addition K encrypts the IP header (except for the source and destinaton address of theeI respective gateways - the absolute minimum required for routing). Part of L the recent attacks on wireless LANs was due to the fact that you could breakJ the encryption through guessing header clear text. You can conceivably runN SSL over IPSEC. On the other hand, SSL gives you authentication of one or both> ends of the conversation, something IPSEC by design cannot do.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:10:09 -0400h' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>iP Subject: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF40266077C@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  @ >>> (And to keep things accurate I should point out that Unix is/ somewhat less than 10 years older than VMS.)<<<   G Perhaps it's a bit less - Anyone know when the first UNIX systems (that"= now form the basics of all UNIX's today) became available?=20m  G My understanding is that it was late 60's timeframe when the University F and Bell types first started developing UNIX on their PDPx systems. If= memory serves me right OpenVMS 1.0 came out around 1978...=20l   Thx,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Servicesn Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----2 From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net]=20 Sent: June 12, 2002 2:59 PMD To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComyG Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in  Reading)      2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageH news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660777@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp. net. .  Osmo -  H >>> High availability is important, and OpenVMS has features which wouldD be very usable here, but when OpenVMS is seen as fossil, we must use unix/linux >>>  < Before calling OpenVMS a fossil - keep in mind that the UNIX8 architecture is at least 10 years older than OpenVMS ...   ***iD Fossilization is not so much a matter of age as it is of inactivity.  E (And to keep things accurate I should point out that Unix is somewhata# less than 10 years older than VMS.)    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 07:59:56 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)OP Subject: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)3 Message-ID: <2Azg2hPl9lsI@eisner.encompasserve.org>3  ~ In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF40266077C@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes: > A >>>> (And to keep things accurate I should point out that Unix isu1 > somewhat less than 10 years older than VMS.)<<<? > I > Perhaps it's a bit less - Anyone know when the first UNIX systems (thati? > now form the basics of all UNIX's today) became available?=20   F    It's generally accepted that UNIX was first written in 1969.  It's D    use of a two mode OS (kernel and user) and byte-stream files was G    popular at that time.  Compare to what DEC shipped on the PDP-10 to r    see internal similarities.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:59:03 GMTp: From: "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@paradigm-shift.biz> Subject: Re: Quorum disk hangb. Message-ID: <3d085107$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au>  2 How is the quorum disk connected to both machines?  < "Rob Harrison" <robert.harrison@ch.abb.com> wrote in message7 news:df79e57d.0206120032.1b8f4ff8@posting.google.com...r* > Hi all, I wonder if someone can help me. >aF > I'm trying to support a customer in the Middle East who has an Alpha@ > cluster. He rebooted one node and suddenly started getting the > following messages:s > - > %CNXMAN Using remote acces for quorum disk%. > ...u- > %CNXMAN Using local access for quorum disk%o > ...h2 > %CNXMAN Established "connection" to quorum disk% >n > then >t > %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 10:55:56%t$ > Message from user SYSTEM on HIHM28 > STARTUP, Mounting QUORUM DISKo >  > then >r > %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 11:00:02%o/ > %CSP-W-QDNOTMNT, please mount the quorum disk  >l$ > which is repeated every 5 minutes. >mE > The other node is running OK and when he does a sho dev he sees theo& > Quorum disk on that node is mounted. >cF > He is refusing to reboot the other node as he is scared that he will > lose the entire system.- >-G > Does anyone have any idea how to kick this beast into life. I suspectf@ > that a simple cluster reboot will do the trick but I need some& > ammunition to convince the customer. >g	 > Thanks,e >, > Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:10:27 +0100e( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Quorum disk hang	) Message-ID: <3D086183.4E88513A@127.0.0.1>.   Rob Harrison wrote:r > [ > Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in message news:<3D0717B6.B1CA0878@127.0.0.1>...2 > > Rob Harrison wrote:3 > > > . > > > Hi all, I wonder if someone can help me. > > > J > > > I'm trying to support a customer in the Middle East who has an AlphaD > > > cluster. He rebooted one node and suddenly started getting the > > > following messages:e > > >d1 > > > %CNXMAN Using remote acces for quorum disk% 	 > > > ... 1 > > > %CNXMAN Using local access for quorum disk% 	 > > > ...n6 > > > %CNXMAN Established "connection" to quorum disk% > > >s
 > > > then > > >d! > > > %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 10:55:56%,( > > > Message from user SYSTEM on HIHM28# > > > STARTUP, Mounting QUORUM DISKo > > >o
 > > > then > > >h! > > > %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 11:00:02%m3 > > > %CSP-W-QDNOTMNT, please mount the quorum disk  > > >r( > > > which is repeated every 5 minutes. ...s  E > The customer did a sho/dev on the working node (he has no access too > the other one) and got this: > 
 > >$sho dev dfH > >Device                  Device           Error    Volume         Free > >Trans > >MntH > >Name                   Status           Count     Label        Blocks > Countr > >Cnt= > >DSA0:                   Mounted              0  SHADOWDISKr	 > 1234400o > >132 > >2A > >$1$DKA0:      (HIHM28)  Mounted              0  (remote mount)- > >1> > >$1$DKA100:    (HIHM29)  Mounted              0  AXPVMSSYS29 > 869241 > >276 > >11 > >$1$DKA200:    (HIHM28)  Online               0sD > >$1$DKA300:    (HIHM29)  ShadowSetMember      0  (member of DSA0:)1 > >$1$DKA400:    (HIHM28)  Online               0n1 > >$1$DKA500:    (HIHM29)  Online wrtlck        04= > >$1$DKB200:    (HIHM29)  Mounted              0  QUORUMDISKt	 > 1786965s > >1 > >21 > >$1$DVA0:      (HIHM29)  Online               0e > @ > HIHM28 is the one that's misbehaving, HIHM29 is the one that's
 > working.  5 Is there a QUORUM.DAT file in the [000000] directory?   * Does the DISK_QUORUM on each system match?  G It should be $1$DKB200. I also take it this is not any part of a shadowi set.  G Looking at this, are you MSCP serving disks, if so, how come the system D disk is served by (guessing) system HIHM29 ? (Or are the two outputs above from different nodes?)  F I start to guess here. We are talking a SCSI cluster right? The quorumH disk is also seen as $1$DKB200 on the other system? If not, you're goingG to have to use PAC, Port Allocation Class (documented) and create a newSH allocation class, e.g. 2. On this system at SYSBOOT, you'll need to do aD SET/CLASS PKB 2 and change the DISK_QUORUM to be $2$DKA200 (note theG controller letter goes to 'A'). Remember the other SCSI cluster rules -M no tapes or CDs in the chain...e  E The issue may be here that perhaps the controller ID has changed, the G disk_quorum's do not match on each system, or something else that's noto$ obvious from the information so far.  H In SYSGEN, a SHOW/CLUSTER would be helpful. We'd need to see it from theE other system too, so either use SYSGEN to read that systems' root and 5 parameters or do a console capture in conversational.i  D Are you aware of anything that has changed? It seems odd that it wasC working and now its not. I always get suspicious that I'm not being 8 given the full story when problems like this come along.  C What I'd suggest maybe is clearing the quorum disk values from both F nodes, and ensuring that they will boot by setting up the voting, thenG adding the quorum disk to each system, rebooting the cluster as you go.w> You really will need a complete cluster reboot so that the oldE datastructures are cleared out. A lowly satellite member of this samer& cluster could be giving you the grief.   -- p( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comi   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:43:19 +0100 (MET)29 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>=+ Subject: Re: rooted devices and /TRANS=CONCe; Message-ID: <01KIVPYFWPDE984WQP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   B > It is important to use a trailing colon. Only then does it work:   OK, but WHY?   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 08:16:28 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)+ Subject: Re: rooted devices and /TRANS=CONCh< Message-ID: <343f30ae.0206130716.30430f6@posting.google.com>  | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KIVPYFWPDE984WQP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...D > > It is important to use a trailing colon. Only then does it work: >  > OK, but WHY?    $ I don't know, but from HELP DEFINE:     a     equivalence-name[,...]  b<        Specifies a character string containing from 1 to 255 characters.o!        The following rules apply:o  m
     [snip]  dE        o  When you specify an equivalence name that will be used as a-D           file specification, you must include the punctuation marksC           (colons, brackets, periods) that would be required if the F           equivalence name were used directly as a file specification.C           Therefore, if you specify a device name as an equivalence E           name, you must terminate the equivalence name with a colon.     B Actually, this is also true when you specify a logical name as the> equivalence name if that logical name resolves to a file-spec.  6 Interestingly, DEC got this wrong with CLUE$DIRECTORY:   $ SH DEF   DKA300:[FELDMAN] $ SHOW LOG/FUL CLUE$DIRECTORY >    "CLUE$DIRECTORY" [super] = "SYS$MANAGER" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)C 1  "SYS$MANAGER" [exec] = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)c $ SET DEF CLUE$DIRECTORY
 $ SHOW DEF   DKA300:[SYSMGR]r- %DCL-I-INVDEF, DKA300:[SYSMGR] does not exist   @ Had "CLUE$DIRECTORY" been defined as "SYS$MANAGER:", the SET DEFE command above would have worked correctly. (BTW, this bug and anotherW@ bug in SET DEFAULT are acknowledged in the release notes for VMSF v5.5-2. These notes also say that these bugs will be fixed in a futureC release of VMS, but I checked on a V7.2 system and the SET DEF bugs D are still there. Shameless plug alert!: Of course my SET DEF program! TO.COM fixes these SET DEF bugs.)t  E Bottom line: If you specify a device name or another (file-spec type)iB logical name as the equivalence name in a DEFINE command, you must< terminate the equivalence name with colon. I don't know why.   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman " afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:47:55 +0100 (MET)h9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e+ Subject: Re: rooted devices and /TRANS=CONCa; Message-ID: <01KIW1VAEFRS96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>h  G >        o  When you specify an equivalence name that will be used as a:F >           file specification, you must include the punctuation marksE >           (colons, brackets, periods) that would be required if the:H >           equivalence name were used directly as a file specification.E >           Therefore, if you specify a device name as an equivalenceoG >           name, you must terminate the equivalence name with a colon.   " Right, and this DOES make sense.     $  DEFINE DISK$USER DSA0:e   $  DIR DISK$USER:[HELBIG]   E The colon in the argument of the DIR command is actually a separator  @ which says that what is to the left is a logical name.  This is I translated into DSA0:[HELBIG] which is a proper file specification since rI the colon here is part of the translation of the logical name.  At least j" that is how I think about it.  :-)  D > Actually, this is also true when you specify a logical name as the@ > equivalence name if that logical name resolves to a file-spec.  H THIS is what I find a) puzzling and b) not documented in HELP or in the H BOOKREADER CD documentation set.  (Search Book(s) is really useful. :-))> I just pulled down VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures.  :-|  H However, it DOES work if /TRANS=CONC is not specified!  I haven't found E anything to indicate that /TRANS=CONC is supposed to have any effect k? other than how the output from SHOW DEFAULT, DIRECTORY etc are t
 formatted.  8 > Interestingly, DEC got this wrong with CLUE$DIRECTORY:  # At least I am in good company.  :-)y  G > (BTW, this bug and another bug in SET DEFAULT are acknowledged in theeI > release notes for VMS v5.5-2. These notes also say that these bugs willsI > be fixed in a future release of VMS, but I checked on a V7.2 system andrG > the SET DEF bugs are still there. Shameless plug alert!: Of course myo4 > SET DEF program TO.COM fixes these SET DEF bugs.)   # Can you post it or email me a copy?e  G > Bottom line: If you specify a device name or another (file-spec type) D > logical name as the equivalence name in a DEFINE command, you must- > terminate the equivalence name with colon. 0  + Again, it DOES work if it is not concealed.r   > I don't know why.    SOMEone must know!   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 00:03:20 -0700! From: sello@operamail.com (sello)v0 Subject: Same Code for VMS and Windows Required?< Message-ID: <c97b9fa.0206122303.6a084ca0@posting.google.com>  F Hi - Help required, I need to write code that will run on windows 2000 and on vms.    More details... A I have several database systems on Mimer & and MS SQL Server 2000eD running on vms and windows respectively. The databases are identicalD (more or less) and I would like to automate the upgrading process of= all the databases by using common code. The code performs thet following tasks: 1 Open connection to a databaseM. 2 Send SQL commands read in from a text file/s3 3 A few ifs and loops and some string manipulation.k  D However there is to be a lot of code and I don't want to write it inE different languages for different platforms so if there is a languageoC that will run on both that would be great. Scripting type languagesu would be preffered.a   Thanks in advance- Sello-   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:05:17 +0100m( From: Martyn <mpattKNICKERS@bigfoot.com>4 Subject: Re: Same Code for VMS and Windows Required?* Message-ID: <3D08604D.6090904@bigfoot.com>   sello wrote:  G >Hi - Help required, I need to write code that will run on windows 2000  >and on vms. >s >More details...B >I have several database systems on Mimer & and MS SQL Server 2000E >running on vms and windows respectively. The databases are identicaleE >(more or less) and I would like to automate the upgrading process ofl> >all the databases by using common code. The code performs the >following tasks:   >1 Open connection to a database/ >2 Send SQL commands read in from a text file/sm4 >3 A few ifs and loops and some string manipulation. >-E >However there is to be a lot of code and I don't want to write it inaF >different languages for different platforms so if there is a languageD >that will run on both that would be great. Scripting type languages >would be preffered. >. >Thanks in advance >Sello >  u >m Perl.a     --  , Remove KNICKERS before replying by Email ;-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:27:30 +0200o= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> 4 Subject: Re: Same Code for VMS and Windows Required?) Message-ID: <3D087392.D75F0B62@gtech.com>    sello wrote:H > Hi - Help required, I need to write code that will run on windows 2000
 > and on vms.o >  > More details...hC > I have several database systems on Mimer & and MS SQL Server 2000tF > running on vms and windows respectively. The databases are identicalF > (more or less) and I would like to automate the upgrading process of? > all the databases by using common code. The code performs theo > following tasks:! > 1 Open connection to a databasea0 > 2 Send SQL commands read in from a text file/s5 > 3 A few ifs and loops and some string manipulation.v > F > However there is to be a lot of code and I don't want to write it inG > different languages for different platforms so if there is a languagedE > that will run on both that would be great. Scripting type languages0 > would be preffered.M  0 I would go for Java and JDBC, but I am sure that other solutions exist.   Arne   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 06:59:11 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)e$ Subject: Re: SCSI- Fatal Drive Error= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0206130559.24ca5f32@posting.google.com>l  _ Stuart Fuller <stufuller@usa.net> wrote in message news:<m639ea.33k.ln@dadsys1.fuller.local>...  > " > Except, the DS-BA356 *is* Ultra. > K > Also, it's likely that the controller on the VAX doesn't do Ultra, so it e5 > really doesn't matter if the BA356 is Ultra or not.N > L > Finally, "Ultra" is not the same concept as "wide SCSI (16-bit)".  "Wide" 4 > means 16 bit, while "Ultra" means 20Mhz data rate. >   B The BA356 is a very *sexy* piece of engineering. I just removed 11D RZ29 drives from their canisters and installed some old (well a year@ or so old, but still old at the rate things change) Seagate 50GBA drives running in SE mode. Seagate changed the pinout on the rearcF unit select/utility connector re: activity LED and unit select ground.  B Not really a problem ... you can simply unsolder this connector inB the canister, cut the section of the flexible PCB connect going to? the lower 6 pins off using sharp scissors (so you are no longerMC grounding LED, FAULT, etc), solder the connector back on and soldersA in two pieces of wire wrap wire to re-establish the new lower rowS? ground connection (now one pin) and activity LED - need also to1D bridge over one pin from the top to bottom row for the activity LED.  B Doing even 4 of these in low lighting at night leaves you a littleC tired at the end of the exercise/evening (and I'll probably need totC wear glasses by the time I'm 50 because of this sort of thing), andnE you do need proper equipment to unsolder the 12 pin connector withoutuC damaging it or the flexible PCB. You also a small soldering iron to E get in to solder one of the wire wrap wires to one of the pins on thetH connector of the cable that goes to the front LEDs in the canister. ThisG is a bit hard to get to, and with the flexible PCB flopping about - butnI can be done to perfection with the right application of the right fingers  at the right times.   < Rub all flux off with a toothbrush and metho to make it look3 "factory" and, of course, to protect the guilty :-)o   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 08:43:01 -0700& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)@ Subject: Secure HTTP client app buildable under OpenVMS/OpenSSL?= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0206130743.4f815d8e@posting.google.com>   = We're looking at the feasibility of building an OpenVMS based-E application to act as a client to a server-side app using secure httpaA protocol over the internet (as defined by the server application,e@ which is not owned by us).  Does the current OpenSSL on VMS (andF hopefully the included OpenSSL coming with V7.3-1) have the capabilityE of providing the 'secure connectivity' for this type of application? gB We've dabbled in using straight http for in house (all on one LAN)@ apps, although it seems rather clumsy, but never worked with SSL before.H  @ Related queries; if a system has CSWS installed with OpenSSL andC mod_ssl, is that a complete installation of OpenSSL that will allow D usage by processes and programs other than CSWS?  And can the actualD 'current' OpenSSL package be installed on a system with the existingC CSWS (in order to get the latest) without affecting CSWS ability tot use mod_ssl/OpenSSL?   Rich JordanO   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:08:11 GMTs+ From: "Rick Barry" <barry@star.zko.dec.com> D Subject: Re: Secure HTTP client app buildable under OpenVMS/OpenSSL?2 Message-ID: <Lr3O8.28$XV5.550058@news.cpqcorp.net>  : Regarding CSWS and OpenSSL, CSWS is currently shipped withK the server linked against an OpenSSL object library, so there is no librarycH for you to use in other applications nor will installing the OpenSSL kitE provide CSWS with enhanced capabilities. We plan to link CSWS against H the OpenSSL shareable image libray after it becomes part of the base OS.  
 Rick Barry) Compaq Secure Web Server Development Team2 OpenVMS Systems Software Group Hewlett Packard Company0
 Nashua, NH  3 "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com> wrote in message 7 news:cc5619f2.0206130743.4f815d8e@posting.google.com...B? > We're looking at the feasibility of building an OpenVMS basediG > application to act as a client to a server-side app using secure httprC > protocol over the internet (as defined by the server application,eB > which is not owned by us).  Does the current OpenSSL on VMS (andH > hopefully the included OpenSSL coming with V7.3-1) have the capabilityF > of providing the 'secure connectivity' for this type of application?D > We've dabbled in using straight http for in house (all on one LAN)B > apps, although it seems rather clumsy, but never worked with SSL	 > before.M > B > Related queries; if a system has CSWS installed with OpenSSL andE > mod_ssl, is that a complete installation of OpenSSL that will allow F > usage by processes and programs other than CSWS?  And can the actualF > 'current' OpenSSL package be installed on a system with the existingE > CSWS (in order to get the latest) without affecting CSWS ability to  > use mod_ssl/OpenSSL? > 
 > Rich JordanV   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 14:14:16 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)r/ Subject: Re: tpc/ip file server for VMS systems , Message-ID: <aea9bo$1lce$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ' In article <3D07F908.380ED2E6@fsi.net>, 4  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: |> rf wrote: |> >  O |> > Is it possible/practical to setup LINUX/BSD to provide file/print services L |> > for VMS/AXP (OVMS 6.2) system(s) over IP?  If so some guidance would be |> > appreciated.0 |> ( |> Possible? Sure.  D One can go beyond possible.  It is emminently doable.  My user filesD (which reside on a Linux box currently, but have been and will be onE a BSD box) are aslo shared on my VMS systems so that the students andIC faculty only have one home directory to deal with.  And we have hadnE VMS PRINT QUEUES pointed at Unix LPD systems for as far back as I cane	 remember.M   |> hG |> Practical? Questionable - it depends why you think you need/want it.pI |> VMS/Linux synergy could be a good thing if it serves a useful purpose.o  A Can't think of anything that makes it "impractical".  I assume if(C the question needed to be asked there is probably a legitimate neede for the capabilities.   ? Contrary to what many here would have you believe, VMS and UNIX ? integrate very well together.  A lot easier than either of themA and Windows.   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   p   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 12:09:05 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)o Subject: Re: unix historyo3 Message-ID: <1gUpuer2EUpJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  c In article <3D089C8E.B02155A6@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:t > 8 > Hmmm.... Now tell us about TOPS-10. I seem to remember? > it knew a thing or two about dates and time, but it still hadr9 > an epoch change. And then there's OS/8 -- it must be ono? > its fifth or sixth "epoch" by now (at eight years per epoch). - > I suspect RT-11 has run out of few as well.c  D    Yeah, but if UNIX started with time in 1969, wouldn't it be epoch=    196x?  Even epoch 1960 wouldn't have hit the sign bit yet.u   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 17:20:16 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)mQ Subject: Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham'sl, Message-ID: <aeak8g$1r3b$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  . In article <3D089C8E.B02155A6@mindspring.com>,5  Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:- |> -. |> I suspect RT-11 has run out of few as well. |>  A I'm not exactly sure as I have never done anythign with RT11 that=A really cared wether you set the date and time at all, but I thinkYC this is wrong. I think because of how the date was stored it basicla@ started with 0 being the year 1900.  Of course, it only held two0 digits and thus had a serious Y2K problem.  :-) @ I also believe the common way to fix it was to use extra bits toA add another digit. But the official way may have been to move the3 starting date forward.  ? As I have said, I have never used a Y2Ked version of RT11 but It? do remember there being a discussion about it on the pdp11 news. groups for a while.n   bill   -- lJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   p   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:17:34 -0500a1 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> Y Subject: Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's  Beer B 1 Message-ID: <aea9kq$n1c$1@fizban.pprd.abbott.com>s  K I'd vote for the "green goo" base date.  And it was an interesting story toi boot.  Engage!   -- Dave...   L Let me make the superstitions of a nation and I care not who makes its laws. -----Mark Twainu  ? "Atlant Schmidt" <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote in messagel( news:3D089C8E.B02155A6@mindspring.com... > Bob Koehler wrote: > G > > In article <01KIVT7JLT8M96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, PhillipL3 Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:M > > > K > > > I'm pretty sure that it was after 1-JAN-1970, since unix uses this asT > > > its 17-NOV-1858.  :-)R > >YK > >    Nope, never did hear how UNIX got a base date later than it's birth,sH > >    but I assume the first version just didn't know what time it was. >n8 > Hmmm.... Now tell us about TOPS-10. I seem to remember? > it knew a thing or two about dates and time, but it still hadf9 > an epoch change. And then there's OS/8 -- it must be one? > its fifth or sixth "epoch" by now (at eight years per epoch).m- > I suspect RT-11 has run out of few as well.e >p9 > Well, maybe someday VMS will realize that with 64 bits,e6 > they could re-set the epoch back to that moment when7 > Q introduced Piccard to the "green goo". Maybe *THAT*q/ > will be the final, all-encompasing base date?m >t > Or maybe not. :-)e >t > Atlant >n >k   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:22:33 +0100 (MET)m9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>2Y Subject: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash i:; Message-ID: <01KIVT7JLT8M96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>R  I > Perhaps it's a bit less - Anyone know when the first UNIX systems (thata= > now form the basics of all UNIX's today) became available? i > I > My understanding is that it was late 60's timeframe when the UniversityoF > and Bell types first started developing UNIX on their PDPx systems.   F I'm pretty sure that it was after 1-JAN-1970, since unix uses this as  its 17-NOV-1858.  :-)  i  F By the way, there is still a bug in SHOW STATUS where a relative time , equal to 0 is formatted as an absolute time:   $ spa sh statusU( %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process XXXXXX_1 spawned: %DCL-S-ATTACHED, terminal now attached to process XXXXXX_1M   Status on  13-JUN-2002 13:17:53.03     Elapsed CPU :17-NOV-1858 00:00:00.00   G Thus, one can use this as a kludge to remember the VMS zero-point time! D (It also serves as a check if the machine is reasonably fast. :-)  )   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:13:59 +0000h2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>Y Subject: Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Ba)4 Message-ID: <20020613121359.A30998@eisenschmidt.org>   --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inlined+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printabler  5 There is a great diagram of the history of Unix here:t  % http://perso.wanadoo.fr/levenez/unix/o  4 It claims that first edition appeared on 1971-11-03.  L Dennis Richie still works for Bell Labs, and his homepage is a font of inte=! resting knowledge on the subject:a  $ http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/  L Including some notes on the evolution of C, and the same with Unix. Richie =L claims the earliest verson of Unix from around 1969-1970 ran on the PDP-7 a= nd the PDP-9.=20  L As for the comment about epoch, Richie talks about this on a page about fin=7 ding two early C compilers on mag tape a few years ago:O  4 http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/primevalC.html  L " Several years ago, Paul Vixie and Keith Bostic found a DECtape drive, att=L ached it to a VAX, and offered to read old DECtapes. Even at the time, this=L  was an antiquarian pursuit, and it presented an opportunity to mine beneat=L h the raised floor of the computer room and unearth some of the DECtapes we=  'd stored since the early 1970s.   =2E..0  L Two tapes are present here; the first is labeled "last1120c", the second "p=L restruct-c". I know from distant memory what these names mean: the first is=L  a saved copy of the compiler preserved just as we were abandoning the PDP-=L 11/20, which did not have multiply or divide instructions, but instead a se=L parate, optional unit that did these operations (and also shifts) by storin=L g the operands into memory locations. (A story about using this hardware is=  told elsewhere.)   L "prestruct-c" is a copy of the compiler just before I started changing it t= o use structures itself.  L It's a bit hard to get really accurate dates for these compilers, except th=L at they are certainly 1972-73. There are date bits on the tape image, but t=L hey suffer from a possible off-by-a-year error because we changed epochs mo=L re than once during this era, and also because the files may have been copi=L ed or fiddled after they were the source for the compiler in contemporaneou= s use. "  / There is also a scanned 1981 add for AT&T Unix:a  1 http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/unixad.htmlo  L Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Phillip Helbig (HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boe= rse.com) Wrote:HK > > Perhaps it's a bit less - Anyone know when the first UNIX systems (thatoA > > now form the basics of all UNIX's today) became available?=20i > >=20K > > My understanding is that it was late 60's timeframe when the University J > > and Bell types first started developing UNIX on their PDPx systems.=20 >=20J > I'm pretty sure that it was after 1-JAN-1970, since unix uses this as=20 > its 17-NOV-1858.  :-) =20i >=20J > By the way, there is still a bug in SHOW STATUS where a relative time=20. > equal to 0 is formatted as an absolute time: >=20 > $ spa sh status * > %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process XXXXXX_1 spawned< > %DCL-S-ATTACHED, terminal now attached to process XXXXXX_1L >   Status on  13-JUN-2002 13:17:53.03     Elapsed CPU :17-NOV-1858 00:00:0= 0.00 >=20I > Thus, one can use this as a kludge to remember the VMS zero-point time!eF > (It also serves as a check if the machine is reasonably fast. :-)  )   --=20 / John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>o6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenL  PGP Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.a= scD  PGP Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2  L FOO MANE PADME HUM: "Our first obligation is to keep the FOO counters turni= ng."   --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI' Content-Type: application/pgp-signaturen Content-Disposition: inline.   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----m Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (OpenBSD)a* Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org  @ iD8DBQE9CIyHH5fmozfjvvIRAiz5AJ4/p5M4aa/xgKVIH1kZTnNCnUSazACfZ/qW vdZhoRCaZ0yDmwtAcIq7zEk= =mfugd -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----d   --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI--   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 08:01:17 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)wY Subject: Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bad3 Message-ID: <XKvE5mVLYPl8@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  w In article <01KIVT7JLT8M96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:r > H > I'm pretty sure that it was after 1-JAN-1970, since unix uses this as  > its 17-NOV-1858.  :-)  i  G    Nope, never did hear how UNIX got a base date later than it's birth,6D    but I assume the first version just didn't know what time it was.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:22:22 -0400x2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>Y Subject: Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bae. Message-ID: <3D089C8E.B02155A6@mindspring.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:  y > In article <01KIVT7JLT8M96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:p > >oI > > I'm pretty sure that it was after 1-JAN-1970, since unix uses this asa > > its 17-NOV-1858.  :-)  >sI >    Nope, never did hear how UNIX got a base date later than it's birth,gF >    but I assume the first version just didn't know what time it was.  6 Hmmm.... Now tell us about TOPS-10. I seem to remember= it knew a thing or two about dates and time, but it still hadn7 an epoch change. And then there's OS/8 -- it must be onc= its fifth or sixth "epoch" by now (at eight years per epoch).r+ I suspect RT-11 has run out of few as well.d  7 Well, maybe someday VMS will realize that with 64 bits, 4 they could re-set the epoch back to that moment when5 Q introduced Piccard to the "green goo". Maybe *THAT*1- will be the final, all-encompasing base date?w   Or maybe not. :-).   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:05:38 +0200eD From: Olof =?iso-8859-1?Q?Gulln=E4s?= <Olof.Gullnas@uab.ericsson.se>F Subject: Re: Urgent help required( Link command getting struck in vax)/ Message-ID: <3D08C2D2.BD13BF13@uab.ericsson.se>h  I A "classic" problem with the linker (I have seen it many times) can occure when linkerrE input files are pointed to by search list logical names. If a file ise missing theoF linker could/can get into what looks like an infinite loop. I think it
 terminatesH eventually but it can take a long long long... time. If this is the case you will$ see it consuming lots of CPU and IO.  I If you are using search list logicals, check that all files/libraries canc be found using the logical.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:45:55 +02008E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>TM Subject: Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)3+ Message-ID: <3D0869D3.C149EA25@mediasec.de>n   > > As a enterprise administrator, I would like to allow Joe (a group admin) > > to be able to setup new users, give, or deny, them certain privilegesI > > without the ability to effect Sam (a different group admin). Each hascK > > full control over all users in his group, but cannot effect each other.)E > There are add-on products to do that, but since it crosses securityyD > domains it is certainly not a proper part of the operating system.  I This is role-based access control with delegation, and I fully agree withiJ Don that is is desirable. The main limitation in VMS, in my experience, isL that historically the CONTROL aspect of access control hasn't being designedJ and implemented properly, especially with such use in mind. Also, what DonH is suggesting would require, in order to be more generally applicable, aC general way to specify and enforce definition, allocation and (re-)_H distribution of  resources - that is not in place but done ad hoc in VMS at the moment.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 10:24:06 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) 1 Subject: Re: What process is using this pagefile? < Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206130924.a1f46fb@posting.google.com>  A This very challenge was the subject of Episode 10 in Bruce Ellis'iC classic book "The Hitchhiker's Guide to VMS", published in 1990.  IOF remember reading these in serial form in VAX Professional.  I was able? to acquire a copy of the book not long ago by sending e-mail toa someone at bruden.com.: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.326 ************************