1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 14 Jun 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 327       Contents:A Re: "Recode in another language", was: RE: VAX to ia64 migration?  Re: $OPEN paradigm (read/write) * Re: $WAKE() lost during high AST activity?* Re: $WAKE() lost during high AST activity?# Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # RE: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday & Carly wasn't here in Houston yesterday* Re: Carly wasn't here in Houston yesterday* Re: Carly wasn't here in Houston yesterday Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  RE: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  RE: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  RE: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: DECServer break key problem  Re: DECServer break key problem  Re: DECServer break key problem  Re: DECWindows "hang"   Re: DECwindows various questions Re: Fibre Disk vs. SCSI Disk Re: Grant "$ level access"?  Re: Grant "$ level access"? + Re: howto create self-extracting zip files? " RE: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans" Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans" Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans2 Re: Mail masquerading using Compaq TCP/IP services2 Re: Mail masquerading using Compaq TCP/IP services Re: MOZILLA and CSWB, Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...4 New J2EE / JMS Software for OpenVMS from SpiritSoft. Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP   RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write)$ Re: RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write)" Re: rooted devices and /TRANS=CONC+ Re: Same Code for VMS and Windows Required? + Re: Same Code for VMS and Windows Required? ; Re: Secure HTTP client app buildable under OpenVMS/OpenSSL? 1 Re: Sun is on the way out!  Only HP and IBM left! & Re: tpc/ip file server for VMS systems& RE: tpc/ip file server for VMS systems Re: unix historyP RE: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Ba< updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMS@ Re: updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMS@ Re: updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMSD Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)D Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)D Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)D Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)% Why does SMTP anti-spam feature fail? ) Re: Why does SMTP anti-spam feature fail? ) Re: Why does SMTP anti-spam feature fail?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:45:13 -0700 M From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net> J Subject: Re: "Recode in another language", was: RE: VAX to ia64 migration?: Message-ID: <3D091269.C5A472A8@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net>   Duane Smith wrote:  K > Thanks Steve.  I should have made sure I read all of the replies before I % > replied to Ken Fairfield's message.    [...]   D     Mea culpa!  On the one hand, I did miss some significant details@ of what Steve was telling me.  On the other hand, I hurried whenD composing my post and should have taken more care to say, "I _think_D this is how it's going to work, but even in the case of details I'veA certainly gotten bolluxed up, VMS users shouldn't worry about it,  the compilers will be there."   F     Thanks to Steve for his corrections, and Duane, John and Steve for. their continuing support for compilers on VMS!       -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! F20 Automation VMS System Support  kenneth.h.fairfield#intel.com    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:27:47 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>( Subject: Re: $OPEN paradigm (read/write)B Message-ID: <TodO8.227959$Kp.20473454@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3D09601A.4F2C575A@videotron.ca...   ...    > Is it possible to openK > it READ-only and then change it to READ/WRITE later on if I find out that  I  > also need to write to it ?   Not the last I knew.   ...   A > Would it be simpler to simply open read/write all files, unless 
 $CHECK_ACCESS H > says that read/write is not possible and then only open it READ-only ?   Yup.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:04:46 GMT ' From: Jeffrey Chimene <jeff@nospam.net> 3 Subject: Re: $WAKE() lost during high AST activity? * Message-ID: <3D093393.1107042B@nospam.net>   Paul Winalski wrote:  G > In general, you are correct.  But there are exceptions to the general E > rule of thumb.  For example, in a write attention AST routine for a H > mailbox it's perfectly reasonable to issue a $QIOW since you know that- > there are data to be read from the mailbox.    Agreed.   Q There  should be no difference among server program interfaces to DECNet, mbx, or O TCP/IP. In other words, all three interfaces use the qio model, and support the R concept of "data waiting, please read." A single event-driven model can (and does)T handle all cases, from a few messges per minute to thousands of messages per minute.  S My take-home point is that it's easy to badly code AST-driven programs. During code T reviews, such code is suspect, and probably represents a design/implementation flaw.   -- MICROSOFT FREE BY 2003   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 04:30:07 GMT  From: danco@pebble.org3 Subject: Re: $WAKE() lost during high AST activity? - Message-ID: <slrnagit6m.20b.danco@pebble.org>   A In article <3D093393.1107042B@nospam.net>, Jeffrey Chimene wrote:   S > There  should be no difference among server program interfaces to DECNet, mbx, or Q > TCP/IP. In other words, all three interfaces use the qio model, and support the T > concept of "data waiting, please read." A single event-driven model can (and does)V > handle all cases, from a few messges per minute to thousands of messages per minute.  I Avsolutely.  In our software we have a client/server API that does any of K TCP (using Compaq TCP/IP, TCPware, or Multinet), DECnet, OpenVMS Mailboxes, > or OpenVMS ICC at the same time in any mix.  It's very doable.   - Dan    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:15:41 -0700 M From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net> , Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday: Message-ID: <3D09279D.F501DEE1@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:   < > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:upqMZQeg4fTv@eisner.encompasserve.org... C > > In article <UudN8.34769$pw3.1398@sccrnsc03>, "Terry C. Shannon" " > <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes: > > > J > > > Hypothetically speaking, if HPQ were able to take HP-UX and endow it > withD > > > ALL the goodness of VMS (clustering, DLM, security, stability, > reliability,K > > > enhanced management, dynamic partitioning, Galaxy, etc, etc) would it  > really/ > > > make any difference if VMS still existed?  > > L > >    Security, DCL, LIB$... routines, SYS$... routines, a decent real-time > >    capability, ... > > $ > >    I won't be holding my breath. > L > Nor will I because I don't look good as a Smurf. But back to the question:L > if HP-UX inherited all the good attributes of VMS, would it matter much if@ > VMS found itself subject to the EERP some years down the road? >  > Just wondering.   H     Not mentioned by other respondants: little-endian versus big-endian.E Having done a lot of programming early on, I can tell you this is NOT F just a recompile-and-go issue.  It is porting, in some cases redesign,> and frequently painful having to examine reams of source code.  G     Now add every one of the other items people already have mentioned, F plus the file system (RMS and file versions were mentioned; I mean the8 whole package including the various file organizations).  C     OTOH, if you're talking about vendor-supplied turn-key types of B applications, it shouldn't matter what's under the hood as long as/ it's reliable and secure.  Oh!  That means VMS!        -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! F20 Automation VMS System Support  kenneth.h.fairfield#intel.com    ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 05:21:05 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) , Subject: RE: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-VMqlpRx9wHVQ@localhost>   D On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:33:32 UTC, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>  wrote:   > Dave,  > J > >>> If Rational were to port their development suite maybe we could stay > on VMS.<<  > J > Note - My albeit limited understanding is that Rational's major focus isE > now J2EE and java based products. We just did a major RFP (big UNIX F > shop) here in Canada and the Customer stated they wanted Rational as > their development suite. > $ > However, they also clearly stated:? > - J2EE/Java was their future architecture (more future vendor   > independence was reason given)H > - all J2EE/Java application development would be done on cheap Windows > based PC's using Rational.< > - all production deployment would be on UNIX based serversB > - they had typical dev, test, qa, pre-prod and prod environments
 > defined. > F > In other words, in the J2EE/Java world, the development platform canB > very easily be different than what is rolled out in production.   D I take your point Kerry but I don't expect to see Java VM's running B aircraft any time soon :-) Would be interesting though. Maybe the ( Pentagon already has a project  running.  E OTOH if Rational's ADA-95 IDE suite (i.e. Apex) were written in Java  E then we could possibly have deployed it on VMS instead of Solaris. I  ! suspect it's mostly C/C++ though.    --   Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:13:42 -0500 $ From: "Art Beane" <beane@petris.com>/ Subject: Carly wasn't here in Houston yesterday 7 Message-ID: <015601c2130e$6e5e0300$352810ac@petris.com>    But, the HP Invent Tour was.  7 o  OpenVMS was included on the first slide that listed  .    operating systems (in the General Session).  B o  HP people identified themselves as "pre-merger HP", "pre-merger Compaq",    or "pre-merger DEC".   - o  Both keynote speakers were pre-merger DEC.   > o  The "pre-merger DEC" people seemed very pumped up about theB    merger: several said is was like going back to the old Digital,C    that the pre-merger HP folks understand how computing works much .    better than the pre-merger Compaq ever did.  G o  In the HPTC session, a pre-merger HP person mentioned how excited he D    was about the OpenVMS port to IPF because it was going to open up=    new sales opportunities in security and high availability.   E o  The bulk of the customers seemed to be pre-merger HP (based on the B    questions they asked), with a huge amount of interest in linux. NobodyH    in any of the sessions I attended identified themselves as an OpenVMSE    customer, but the opening OS slide was shown again in each session  that I    attended.  	 Art Beane  Petris Technology, Inc.  1900 St. James Place, Suite 700  Houston, TX 77056  Phone: 713-403-8423  Fax: 713-956-2185  http://www.petris.com   @ PS: My spelling corrector wants to change "Carly" to "Curly" !!!   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 17:28:20 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) 3 Subject: Re: Carly wasn't here in Houston yesterday 3 Message-ID: <h7FbW5JucJY+@eisner.encompasserve.org>   ^ In article <015601c2130e$6e5e0300$352810ac@petris.com>, "Art Beane" <beane@petris.com> writes: > But, the HP Invent Tour was.  I > o  In the HPTC session, a pre-merger HP person mentioned how excited he F >    was about the OpenVMS port to IPF because it was going to open up? >    new sales opportunities in security and high availability.   A Very important.  Point out to the sales force what VMS can do for A _them_ as individuals.  Where appropriate tell them you can serve  as a reference site.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:05:43 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 3 Subject: Re: Carly wasn't here in Houston yesterday ' Message-ID: <3D09613B.EA1A6AA3@fsi.net>    Art Beane wrote: > [snip] > NobodyJ >    in any of the sessions I attended identified themselves as an OpenVMSG >    customer, but the opening OS slide was shown again in each session  > that I >    attended.  / One small step for VMS, one giant leap for HPQ!   B Let's hope they've not spent themselves and are still able to make1 another giant leap, and then another, and then...    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:10:37 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?0 Message-ID: <00A0F66C.8E056755@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <aeajdo$1r3b$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: {...snip...}D >any more than it would be for Unix.  But, regardless of which shipsE >with more documentation, there ican still be little doubt that there F >is much more third party, aftermarket documentation for Unix than for >VMS.   H Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there doesn't5 need to be any additional after-market documentation.   F And whilst on the topic of "after-market documentation", I'll offer my observations and opinions...  F My last trip to B&N's "computer" shelves found little more than PeeCeeG and Micro$chlock books.  The PeeCee user must be a complete moron.  One E of the books I saw was "Using Micro$chlock Internet Exploiter".  This H book was approximately the size of the hardcopy OpenVMS for Alpha Inter-H nals book and slightly thicker (indicating more pages or heavier paper).F I can't conceive of a moron requiring such an in-depth treatise on theH use of a web browser and I can't fathom such a topic requiring such vast
 discourse.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 18:03:42 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <aeampu$1sn7$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  + In article <3D08C0FB.F16ABE23@mediasec.de>, H  Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> writes:O |> > No reason why it couldn't.  But most Unix options are only one letter long 3 |> > now.  What would you abbreviate them to??  :-)  |>  M |> The point of getopt is that it allows --dosomething instead of the single- & |> letter monsters. Still no NO, IIRC.  H Actually, getopt predates the GNUism of long options by quite some time.H It's purpose was to do exactly what many here have complained about.  It, created a standard API for handling options.  H I can't determine the exact age of getopt, but it goes back a long ways.I Comments in getopt.c under Ultrix-11 V3.1 state "decvax!larry - no changevG since BSD 4.2"  Henry Spencer released his public domain copy of getoptKJ which it is claimed he wrote "working from a Bell Labs manual page" aroundC April, 1984 which means Bell Labs had it earlier.  So it looks like D standard API's under Unix have a longer history than most here would give them credit for too.    bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:27:07 -0700l# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> $ Subject: RE: Could linux become VMS?9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEOCFCAA.tom@kednos.com>V  / I _think_ I used it on BSD4.1 on a VAX ca. 1982    >-----Original Message-----e9 >From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]e' >Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 11:04 AM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com% >Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?l >i > , >In article <3D08C0FB.F16ABE23@mediasec.de>,I > Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> writes:eA >|> > No reason why it couldn't.  But most Unix options are only S >one letter long4 >|> > now.  What would you abbreviate them to??  :-) >|> C >|> The point of getopt is that it allows --dosomething instead of o >the single-' >|> letter monsters. Still no NO, IIRC.  >kI >Actually, getopt predates the GNUism of long options by quite some time. I >It's purpose was to do exactly what many here have complained about.  Itp- >created a standard API for handling options.P >EI >I can't determine the exact age of getopt, but it goes back a long ways.sJ >Comments in getopt.c under Ultrix-11 V3.1 state "decvax!larry - no changeH >since BSD 4.2"  Henry Spencer released his public domain copy of getoptK >which it is claimed he wrote "working from a Bell Labs manual page" aroundsD >April, 1984 which means Bell Labs had it earlier.  So it looks likeE >standard API's under Unix have a longer history than most here wouldo >give them credit for too. >  >bille >t >-- K >Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvescE >bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.o >University of Scranton   |oB >Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>    >. >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.i; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).$@ >Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/2002 >  ---d& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/2002V   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 18:39:46 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)l$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <aeaoti$1tgt$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  0 In article <00A0F66C.8E056755@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes: |> fI |> And whilst on the topic of "after-market documentation", I'll offer myS |> observations and opinions...8 |> oI |> My last trip to B&N's "computer" shelves found little more than PeeCeee |> and Micro$chlock books.   |> s  F A quick search of Barnes & Noble online revealed 1.582 Titles with theH keyword Unix.  It listed 109 Titles with the keyword VMS.  Care to guess3 what happens if you make that OpenVMS??  16 Titles.o   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 18:41:31 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <aeap0r$1tgt$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  0 In article <00A0F66C.8E056755@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes: |> b |>  K |> Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there doesn'te8 |> need to be any additional after-market documentation. |> a  D I skipped this comment at first, but after a little thought I had to3 admit it was the funniest thing I've heard all day.i   bill   -- gJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   p   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:56:33 +0100 (MET)t9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?; Message-ID: <01KIW99C5G3U96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>0  M > |> Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there doesn'tp: > |> need to be any additional after-market documentation. > |> r > F > I skipped this comment at first, but after a little thought I had to5 > admit it was the funniest thing I've heard all day.   B What would be an example of a third-party VMS book which provides D information not (readily) available in the official documentation?     ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:22:42 GMTaL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?8 Message-ID: <00A0F65D.7ADC892F@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  w In article <01KIW99C5G3U96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:iN >> |> Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there doesn't; >> |> need to be any additional after-market documentation.  >> |>  >> uG >> I skipped this comment at first, but after a little thought I had tol6 >> admit it was the funniest thing I've heard all day. >oC >What would be an example of a third-party VMS book which provides  E >information not (readily) available in the official documentation?  t  ) The Internals and Data Structures Manual?   J (Digital Press, after all, is an imprint of Butterworth-Heineman, who are K a division of Reed-Elsevier, and are not owned by Compaq or HP, which makesa tham a third party.)   -- Alann    O ===============================================================================d0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056FM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-02100O ===============================================================================i   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:33:15 +0100 (MET)09 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?; Message-ID: <01KIWAK1UCBW96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   + > The Internals and Data Structures Manual?    :-)   F I almost put in a line "of course, things like the Internals and Data E Structures book aren't really considered 3d-party, since the authors s worked for DEC".   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 19:21:07 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon),$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <aearb3$1ujk$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  ; In article <01KIW99C5G3U96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>,-<  Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:P |> > |> Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there doesn't= |> > |> need to be any additional after-market documentation.- |> > |>  |> > .I |> > I skipped this comment at first, but after a little thought I had toe8 |> > admit it was the funniest thing I've heard all day. |> eE |> What would be an example of a third-party VMS book which provides aG |> information not (readily) available in the official documentation?  s  C I haven't a clue.  I only have one third-party VMS book.  "Unix for B VMS Users".  And I inherited that.  But I could ask the same thingC about all those Unix books too.  Some people choose or even need to E read information in different styles in order to extract the valuabledE parts.  I learned Pascal from J & W's "User Manual and Report".  Moste? people opt for something easier to digest, like Grogono's book.o  ; But that wasn't the part that made me laugh.  I meant, "VMS " documentation is so well written".    Each to his own tastes, I guess.   bill   -- ,J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   t   ------------------------------   Date: 13 JUN 2002 18:18:53 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?6 Message-ID: <13JUN02.18185310@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  5 In a previous article, system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:i   -> ...H ->My last trip to B&N's "computer" shelves found little more than PeeCeeI ->and Micro$chlock books.  The PeeCee user must be a complete moron.  One G ->of the books I saw was "Using Micro$chlock Internet Exploiter".  ThissJ ->book was approximately the size of the hardcopy OpenVMS for Alpha Inter-J ->nals book and slightly thicker (indicating more pages or heavier paper).H ->I can't conceive of a moron requiring such an in-depth treatise on theJ ->use of a web browser and I can't fathom such a topic requiring such vast ->discourse.  G During my last trip to B&N I nearly fell on the floor when I saw Hoff's-A "Writing Real Programs in DCL, Second Edition" in the programmingM7 languages section. Not one but TWO copies on the shelf.    --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madisonn8 --                   karcher.dontspam@waisman.wisc.edu     ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:46:07 GMTs From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?0 Message-ID: <00A0F682.47105A6B@SendSpamHere.ORG>  ` In article <aeaoti$1tgt$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:1 >In article <00A0F66C.8E056755@SendSpamHere.ORG>, ! > system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:o >|> J >|> And whilst on the topic of "after-market documentation", I'll offer my  >|> observations and opinions... >|> J >|> My last trip to B&N's "computer" shelves found little more than PeeCee >|> and Micro$chlock books.  >|>  >eG >A quick search of Barnes & Noble online revealed 1.582 Titles with thetI >keyword Unix.  It listed 109 Titles with the keyword VMS.  Care to guesso4 >what happens if you make that OpenVMS??  16 Titles.  H I was speaking of the bricks-and-mortar B&N, not the online B&N.  If youH want to be pedantic, the bricks-and-mortar Amazon hasn't any unix or VMS	 books. ;)a   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMt            +5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" -   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:48:35 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGr$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?0 Message-ID: <00A0F682.9F33A7CC@SendSpamHere.ORG>   In article <00A0F65D.7ADC892F@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:sx >In article <01KIW99C5G3U96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:O >>> |> Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there doesn't < >>> |> need to be any additional after-market documentation. >>> |> k >>> H >>> I skipped this comment at first, but after a little thought I had to7 >>> admit it was the funniest thing I've heard all day.. >>D >>What would be an example of a third-party VMS book which provides F >>information not (readily) available in the official documentation?   > * >The Internals and Data Structures Manual? >vK >(Digital Press, after all, is an imprint of Butterworth-Heineman, who are dL >a division of Reed-Elsevier, and are not owned by Compaq or HP, which makes >tham a third party.)e  < Now.  But in a former life, Digital Press was d|i|g|i|t|a|l.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 0   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:30:21 GMTwL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?8 Message-ID: <00A0F66F.4FD7671F@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  P In article <00A0F682.9F33A7CC@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >In article <00A0F65D.7ADC892F@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:y >>In article <01KIW99C5G3U96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes: P >>>> |> Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there doesn't= >>>> |> need to be any additional after-market documentation.p >>>> |>  >>>> tI >>>> I skipped this comment at first, but after a little thought I had tor8 >>>> admit it was the funniest thing I've heard all day. >>>-E >>>What would be an example of a third-party VMS book which provides  G >>>information not (readily) available in the official documentation?  e >>+ >>The Internals and Data Structures Manual?A >>L >>(Digital Press, after all, is an imprint of Butterworth-Heineman, who are M >>a division of Reed-Elsevier, and are not owned by Compaq or HP, which makesi >>tham a third party.) > = >Now.  But in a former life, Digital Press was d|i|g|i|t|a|l.r  K I'm sort of half-joking about this whole third-party deal.  I didn't reallyrG think the name "Digital Press" was a coincidence.  The IDSM is not only L prepared by a VMS Engineering person, it's prepared using VAX/DEC Document. O It's not clear to me why it _isn't_ distributed by Digital, er, Compaq, er, HP,-F unless the idea was that if it appeared in the doc set users would get! themselves into too much trouble.C  	 -- Alan  c  O ===============================================================================30  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056uM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210tO ===============================================================================i   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 17:17:25 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)o$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <qX4kvEI$FRi2@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  ` In article <aearb3$1ujk$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  = > But that wasn't the part that made me laugh.  I meant, "VMS $ > documentation is so well written". > " > Each to his own tastes, I guess.  ? Parts of it have gone downhill.  The DECwindows XUI programmingpI documentation was great -- the DECwindows Motif programming documentation  is pathetic.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:29:07 -0400 ' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>f$ Subject: RE: Could linux become VMS?T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660782@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Alan,)    Re: third party OpenVMS books ..  ) How about this one - one url will wrap ..-H http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1555582648/qid%3D1017069087/10339! 73367-1174238/103-4088486-0479061n; "OpenVMS with Apache, OSU, and WASD, The Nonstop Webserver"$   Alan - have you read this book?c   :-) :-)B  G [just kidding .. Btw - is this now available? Besides myself, I know ofeH a number of Customers and internal folks who are definitely interested.. ]s  @ Note: Another book that might be of interest to this readership:J http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1555582672/ref=3Dpd_sim_books_2/10= 3e -4088486-0479061F "Linux and OpenVMS Interoperability, Tricks for Old Dogs, New Dogs and Hot Dogs with Open Systems"u [John Robert Wisniewski]   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantl Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Servicesn Voice: 613-592-4660n Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----+ From: "Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"c* [mailto:winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU]=20 Sent: June 13, 2002 3:23 PMg To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?    C In article <01KIW99C5G3U96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillipt3 Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes: I >> |> Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there=20iC >> |> doesn't need to be any additional after-market documentation.v >> |>=20 >>=20tJ >> I skipped this comment at first, but after a little thought I had to=206 >> admit it was the funniest thing I've heard all day. >sB >What would be an example of a third-party VMS book which providesG >information not (readily) available in the official documentation? =20:  ) The Internals and Data Structures Manual?M  E (Digital Press, after all, is an imprint of Butterworth-Heineman, whon are=20E a division of Reed-Elsevier, and are not owned by Compaq or HP, whicho makes tham a third party.)   -- Alanu    L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=B =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dt0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU?  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:) 650/926-3056A  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CAe
 94309-0210L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=B =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 17:20:33 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)1$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <Wp1Up9SYmhRm@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <00A0F66F.4FD7671F@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:l  M > I'm sort of half-joking about this whole third-party deal.  I didn't reallytI > think the name "Digital Press" was a coincidence.  The IDSM is not onlyaN > prepared by a VMS Engineering person, it's prepared using VAX/DEC Document. Q > It's not clear to me why it _isn't_ distributed by Digital, er, Compaq, er, HP, H > unless the idea was that if it appeared in the doc set users would get# > themselves into too much trouble.i  D Similar to the price for the source listings, it does somewhat limitD the percentage of VMS sites that have extra tools useful for getting into real trouble.  D There was a hiccup when the listings moved from microfiche to CDROM.F DEC was not convinced there was significant interest (as distinguished4 from people who will accept anything if it is free).   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:34:48 GMTlL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")$ Subject: RE: Could linux become VMS?8 Message-ID: <00A0F678.50E2C00B@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  ~ In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660782@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes: >Alan, >N! >Re: third party OpenVMS books ..m > * >How about this one - one url will wrap ..I >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1555582648/qid%3D1017069087/10339t" >73367-1174238/103-4088486-0479061< >"OpenVMS with Apache, OSU, and WASD, The Nonstop Webserver" >e  >Alan - have you read this book? >  >:-) :-) >oH >[just kidding .. Btw - is this now available? Besides myself, I know ofI >a number of Customers and internal folks who are definitely interested..a >]  L The book has been typeset and I am correcting proofs at present.  I'll make J a noise here when it's actually available.  (By the time it gets out it'llK be a version behind on OSU and WASD (describing 7.2 of WASD which will haveeJ 8.0 out, 3.9(b,c) and 3.10alpha of OSU, which will be at least in 3.10a byB the time of print.  Trying to keep up is a real Red Queen's race.)     >iA >Note: Another book that might be of interest to this readership: K >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1555582672/ref=3Dpd_sim_books_2/10=h >3 >-4088486-0479061tG >"Linux and OpenVMS Interoperability, Tricks for Old Dogs, New Dogs anda >Hot Dogs with Open Systems" >[John Robert Wisniewski]     I'm looking forward to this one.   -- Alan   O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-30561M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210-O ===============================================================================P   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:02:40 -0400s( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <3D092490.5070501@tsoft-inc.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  2 > In article <00A0F66C.8E056755@SendSpamHere.ORG>," >  system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes: > |> d > |> eM > |> Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there doesn'ti: > |> need to be any additional after-market documentation. > |> - > F > I skipped this comment at first, but after a little thought I had to5 > admit it was the funniest thing I've heard all day.: >  > bill >  >     H I've never resorted to any documentation for VMS except for the various N documentation sets.  I've got stuff from VMS V2 to the stuff distributed with > V6.2, and a few other things.  I've usually found what I need.   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:32:24 +0200f' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D092B88.2E558388@spam.not>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > - > In article <3D08C0FB.F16ABE23@mediasec.de>,lJ >  Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> writes:Q > |> > No reason why it couldn't.  But most Unix options are only one letter longl5 > |> > now.  What would you abbreviate them to??  :-)r > |>O > |> The point of getopt is that it allows --dosomething instead of the single-P( > |> letter monsters. Still no NO, IIRC. > J > Actually, getopt predates the GNUism of long options by quite some time.J > It's purpose was to do exactly what many here have complained about.  It. > created a standard API for handling options. > J > I can't determine the exact age of getopt, but it goes back a long ways.K > Comments in getopt.c under Ultrix-11 V3.1 state "decvax!larry - no change=I > since BSD 4.2"  Henry Spencer released his public domain copy of getoptuL > which it is claimed he wrote "working from a Bell Labs manual page" aroundE > April, 1984 which means Bell Labs had it earlier.  So it looks likeUF > standard API's under Unix have a longer history than most here would > give them credit for too.l  G An unbroken record of not being used or even respected. There are much rC more programs that don't use getopt. An impressive success for any d	 standard.    > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -- l? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, o@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:50:06 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?B Message-ID: <NcaO8.216419$%y.19716506@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KIWAK1UCBW96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...d- > > The Internals and Data Structures Manual?i >  > :-)l >hG > I almost put in a line "of course, things like the Internals and DatanF > Structures book aren't really considered 3d-party, since the authors > worked for DEC".  L Hmmm.  I suspect that a great many of the authors of Unix books worked for a Unix vendor as well.  I The original comment referred to 'official' documentation.  I interpreted L that as the documentation shipped with the system, but I suppose other couldL interpret it differently.  Other books not shipped with the system that comeL to mind include Kirby McCoy's VMS File Internals, an Rdb internals book (RdbK reportedly shipped as part of VMS for at least some period of time), one on % VAXclusters, one on VMS security, ...    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:02:56 +0200 ' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>s$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D0932B0.7D59A3B4@spam.not>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:e >  > "Jan C. Vorbrggen" wrote: > G > > What Unix commands, as a collective, are lacking is consistency andsF > > memorability. My mind works differently from a computer, thank you > > very much. > $ > Okay, here's a quick test for you: > @ >  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier? >      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier?r > 6 > Now, contrast that with the analagous Unix question: > ; >   o Which Unix commands allow their output to be printed?f >       ...saved to a file?t > ? > Obviously, the interfaces on both systems have both strengthst= > and weaknesses. Speaking solely for me, I'm much happier ini? > tcsh than DCL. Not only can I print or save the output of anyg; > command, I can even edit lines longer than a single sceen-@ > width (or has VMS finally resolved that long-standing issue?).  : 1.How do you display the three time stamps of a UNIX file?  @ 2.How do you display a certain set of attributes of a UNIX file?  < 3.How do you display a certain subset of entries within one 7   directory based on a name restriction with wildcards?.  : 4.How do you accomplish a fixed width display format when &   showing the contents of a directory?    < I think I understand what you like of UNIX shells. There is = some comfort for very simple things. But the syntax for more "< complicated things is irregular or not safely usable. There = are a lot of possibilities where the problems with the shell v; syntax and the lack of concepts can do tremendous harm. Do  < you know what can happen if a file exists with name -r? The 4 mere fact that the contents of the objects that are 4 manipulated can change the intended operation is an  incredible design flaw.e   --  ? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, e@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencea   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:09:50 +0200k' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>-$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D09344E.6F5015B4@spam.not>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:b >  > Bob Koehler wrote: > ( > > > Okay, here's a quick test for you: > > >0D > > >  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier?# > > >      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier?g > >rH > >    We all know what th /print qualifier does, don't we?  We all knowA > >    what the /output qualifier does, too.  That's consistency.d > 2 > Great. Now try answering *THE QUESTION I ASKED*. > : > *WHICH* commands implement the elusive /PRINT qualifier?D > You prbably don't know without looking/trying. I certainly didn't,= > and I used VMS for the better part of several decades. Sameh6 > for /OUTPUT. Someday *ALL* the DEC-provided commands? > may implement those two qualifiers. But it's a certainty thata9 > there will *NEVER* come a time when all the third-partyI, > and user-provided commands implement them.  9 At least there is a clear concept which can be observed. ,- If some don't observe it they make a mistake.r  < Anyway if you want to log the output you can SET HOST /LOG.   ( How do you log the user input with UNIX?   > 6 > >    So what does -r mean?  There is no consistency. > 0 > I admitted that both command environments have. > weaknesses. Can you make the same admission?  . Okay there are 5% in VMS that can be improved ( and 95% in UNIX that should be improved.   Do you feel better now?O   -- (? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, b@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence5   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:08:12 GMTa# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?F Message-ID: <MtaO8.7014$831.5227@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   Product Details    Paperback: 448 pagesI Publisher: Digital Equipment Corp; ISBN: 1555582648; 1st edition (June 1,e 2002)d Amazon.com Sales Rank: 85,071i    So who really IS your publisher?  L And to everyone who frequents this ng, let's help Alan's book reach #1 - buyJ a copy for each of your unix/Windows fan friends/bosses so they can learn.        H ""Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"" <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>C wrote in message news:00A0F678.50E2C00B@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU...c > In articleI <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660782@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>,h) "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes:a > >Alan, > > # > >Re: third party OpenVMS books ..t > >p, > >How about this one - one url will wrap ..K > >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1555582648/qid%3D1017069087/10339d$ > >73367-1174238/103-4088486-0479061> > >"OpenVMS with Apache, OSU, and WASD, The Nonstop Webserver" > >r" > >Alan - have you read this book? > >p
 > >:-) :-) > >/J > >[just kidding .. Btw - is this now available? Besides myself, I know ofK > >a number of Customers and internal folks who are definitely interested..u > >] >dH > The book has been typeset and I am correcting proofs at present.  I'll makeL > a noise here when it's actually available.  (By the time it gets out it'llH > be a version behind on OSU and WASD (describing 7.2 of WASD which will haveL > 8.0 out, 3.9(b,c) and 3.10alpha of OSU, which will be at least in 3.10a byD > the time of print.  Trying to keep up is a real Red Queen's race.) >= >= > >=C > >Note: Another book that might be of interest to this readership:a > K >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1555582672/ref=3Dpd_sim_books_2/10=u > >3 > >-4088486-0479061mI > >"Linux and OpenVMS Interoperability, Tricks for Old Dogs, New Dogs and< > >Hot Dogs with Open Systems" > >[John Robert Wisniewski]i >G" > I'm looking forward to this one. > 	 > -- Alana >a >mL ============================================================================ ===w2 >  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUA >  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:D 650/926-3056C >  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA-
 94309-0210 > L ============================================================================ ===: >:   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:21:05 +02000' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>n$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?' Message-ID: <3D0936F1.24181BF@spam.not>p   Phillip Helbig wrote:o > 4 > > I can even edit lines longer than a single sceenB > > width (or has VMS finally resolved that long-standing issue?). > F > No, but I can hit the UP-arrow to recall commands without the escapeJ > sequences being displayed on the screen while an application is running. > :-)o  E Sorry for replying to your message but I don't find the original one.e  D Do we need multiline command editing? I chose a smaller font to let B the command line fit into the window or define a short logical to   reduce the number of characters.   -- t? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, p@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:19:07 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?8 Message-ID: <00A0F686.E37D022E@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  l In article <MtaO8.7014$831.5227@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >Product Details >t >Paperback: 448 pages J >Publisher: Digital Equipment Corp; ISBN: 1555582648; 1st edition (June 1, >2002) >Amazon.com Sales Rank: 85,071  J That June 1 date would have been right if I'd hit all my deadlines, which  I emphatically didn't.   >>! >So who really IS your publisher?v  L Digital Press, an imprint of Butterworth-Heinemann, which is itself owned byI the journal publishers Reed-Elsevier.  Digital Press used to be owned by nN DEC but was flogged off under Palmer along with the backlist.  I'm still proud to be under that imprint.o     >nM >And to everyone who frequents this ng, let's help Alan's book reach #1 - buy K >a copy for each of your unix/Windows fan friends/bosses so they can learn.=  > Yow.  I don't think there's anything I can safely say to that.   -- Alan=  O ================================================================================0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056sM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210tO ===============================================================================D   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:49:00 +0200=' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>=$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D092F6C.7CD9404B@spam.not>   Aristotle SnowNasis wrote: > C > In article <3D0628BA.591BCCE7@spam.not>, welcome@spam.not says...r > >i > >Aristotle SnowNasis wrote:a > >>M > >> In article <adoch4$jga$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov>, Scandora@cmt.anl.gov says...a > >> >: > >> >"Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message( > >> >news:3CFF3B6D.ED24C47D@spam.not...* > >> >> "Scandora, Anthony (35048)" wrote: > >> >> ...oD > >> >> > > Did I mention that UNIX is shit/crap and C fits well in?	 > >> >> >aU > >> >> > There is a lot not to like about it, but once properly configured, UNIX caneQ > >> >> > run reliably and do a lot of work, and most of what's wrong with C also R > >> >> > applies to BLISS and to Macro.  A lot can be said about .ascid v. .asciz; > >> >> > strings, but that's a lanugage independent issue.  > >> >>tD > >> >> The point is how much time you need to get it in that state.C > >> >> Having BLISS and Macro similar flaws doesn't make C better.f > >> > > >> >P > >> >It's annoying, but not too difficult to learn where those config files areO > >> >and what goes in them.  I suspect someone who doesn't know VMS would moanmR > >> >about having to learn AUTOGEN and MODPARAMS.  Once you know your stuff, it's> > >> >pretty easy to configure either a Linux or a VMS system. > >>S > >> I'd agree. VMS can be so obtuse at times, whereas MOST Unix have configuration O > >> files in centrally located areas. Also, help on VMS is quite brief and not0M > >> always very helpful. On the other hand, man pages, while sometimes beingeR > >> tautological are full of information, especially that parts that describe the+ > >> files used in such-and-such a program./ > >mD > >The commands' parameters and options are a complete mess on UNIX. >  > Your opinion, I disagree.n  B Prove your opinion. We are in a VMS NG. The people who understand @ VMS know that your opinion is wrong because VMS' UI and command 9 set has been designed while the UNIX equivalents haven't.     D > >The standardised API for UNIX is that low level that tons of code  > >are duplicated with the apps. >  > What?o  # Go get some programming experience.e  N > >> By the way, I'm an administrator on several unix and vms platforms (vax & > >> alpha). > >>T > >> Overall, VMS has stood still for years while Unix has marched on (especially toS > >> the degree of products provided by the likes of HP, Sun, Compaq to enhance thee > >> "unix experience"...) > >r- > >Why isn't there anything like CDL on UNIX?h > > G > >A mature OS should provide a more complete base and more concise API0
 > >than UNIX.8 > Q > These are rather non-specific statements. Hard to hit a target if we don't knowH
 > what it is.e  G Your statement seems to be a hint that your programming experience with  VMS 0 is rather low. It's hard to explain the obvious.  N > >> >Similar language flaws don't make C worse, either.  C can't be condemned0 > >> >unless BLISS and Macro are also condemned. > >> >>SO > >> >> > VMS advocacy would be better served by touting its advantages than bySJ > >> >> > calling products that do a lot of useful work and the people who3 > >> >> > create them perjorative and vulgar names.- > >> >>-G > >> >> VMS is cleanly designed while UNIX is not. This is a differencef< > >> >> which is independent of the implementation language. > >> >R > >> >What's under the hood of my car is interesting to me and fun to learn about,M > >> >but not as important to me as the fact that the car was easy to buy, itCP > >> >starts when I turn the key, and it gives me a nice ride to where I want toH > >> >go.  Likewise, I stand in admiration of the outstanding design andP > >> >implementation of VMS, but what matters to most computer users is that the( > >> >system runs applications reliably. > > Q > >Completely agreed from that point of view. But on the long term it's important M > >how the services are implemented because this influences the stability and ! > >costs for further development.v > >aH > >The same reason applies to C and PERL development. It doesn't deliverI > >quality at acceptable costs. Therefore it's important to look under to  > >hood. > >uQ > >> It strikes me as rather snobbish to describe VMS as "cleanly designed". SurerT > >> Unix started its life as an experimental OS and grew from that and subsequentlyT > >> inherited a few flaws, it has been tightened up over the years to prove to be a! > >> very stable and reliable OS.t > >nD > >I read that VMS was designed in an organised way, but UNIX wasn'tJ > >but instead was developed in a more experimental trial and error style. > M > You're living in the past. Unix has changed so much from the original days,i > obviously.  F Alas, the philosophy hasn't changed. Most UNIX apps are as unreliable A as the OS itself. And a few very important features haven't been p? implemented because it had needed to rewrite UNIX from scratch.o  5 > >What do you think isn't cleanly designed with VMS?- > >. > >> >>d > >> >> Who created UNIX?  > >> >P > >> >A couple of PDP-7 hackers at Bell Labs way back in ancient history.  MajorP > >> >later development was done at Berkeley, which is also known for LSD, whichK > >> >some don't think is a coincidence.  All that is irrelevant.  For manyiP > >> >applications, Linux is easy to configure and runs applications reliably on > >> >cheap commodity hardware.o > >>K > >> With software that is generally free and not a bitch to license... :-)i > >cL > >But honestly this wasn't the case in the first decade, at least accordingE > >to the UNIX-haters Handbook from which the LSD quote may have been 	 > >taken.  > 6 > Again, it's in the past - it has matured since then.  C Why didn't you answer the specific question about VMS design flaws?   L > >I completely agree that there are many cases where you can use UNIX boxesJ > >to accomplish a task and more often than not you have to if you want toI > >avoid an even greater mess with other wide spread OSs because the appse@ > >aren't available for VMS. But this is not a technical reason. > P > True, but many a good idea has gone the way of the dinosaur because of lack ofN > support. That's why I said VMS has basically stood still (and I meant by VMS4 > all the tools and add-ons to the VMS core system).  B This is again not a technical argument. I can't change the world. B Most people believe in democracy although every slightly educated B person would come to the conclusion that it is completely stupid. ? The fact that most people are morons doesn't make VMS a bad OS t and UNIX a good one.  N > Would you ague that without ip support, VMS may have died much quicker as we  > all threw away our decnets...?  2 I'm in a process to switch back to DECnet locally.8 IP is a complete mess also. It fits well into UNIX an C.  E What would you like to show with your "million flies" type arguments?y% Is this a technical talk or a survey?t   --  ? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, t@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence-   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:42:40 GMTc From: lbohan@spamless..dbc.com$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?8 Message-ID: <doeigu07abjm3r8nmvqp73itm24p663hok@4ax.com>  E On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:32:24 +0200, Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>a wrote:  H >An unbroken record of not being used or even respected. There are much D >more programs that don't use getopt. An impressive success for any 
 >standard.   I wondered about that too.    . Perhaps the newer getopt api's aren't getting 8 used as much as they might, because folks want (need) to. code for the lowest common denominator/oldest 0 flavor of Unix, which may not have them yet ....   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:01:28 GMTt* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?B Message-ID: <IfbO8.227380$Gs.20430642@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  * <system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A0F66C.8E056755@SendSpamHere.ORG...H > In article <aeajdo$1r3b$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:  > {...snip...}F > >any more than it would be for Unix.  But, regardless of which shipsG > >with more documentation, there ican still be little doubt that thereoH > >is much more third party, aftermarket documentation for Unix than for > >VMS.  >wJ > Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there doesn't7 > need to be any additional after-market documentation.g  J It's much more likely that the VMS market is simply too small and stagnant3 to be worth writing for, except as a labor of love.o  H If the non-computer-literate public wants to take a peek at the industryF outside the bounds of Windows, what's the one class of 'real' computer, systems they've likely ever heard of?  Unix.  L If a Windows weenie wants to expand his/her horizons to 'real' systems, same, answer (if NT/2K/XP don't satisfy the urge).  J If someone experienced on some other 'legacy' system wants to jump careersI to a system with better long-term prospects, the only real candidates areo7 Windows NT descendants and Unix (including Linux/*BSD).   G Even if a Unix engineer wants to jump to another Unix, there are enoughrK idiosyncracies that s/he might well purchase a book on the target Unix just  to get up to speed..  J Similar reasons explain why there are even more Windows-related books thanD Unix books.  It's much more a matter of system popularity (and henceI potential book market) than anything to do with system (or documentation)a excellence or lack thereof.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:13:33 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?F Message-ID: <hjcO8.7437$831.3958@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  - When you reach #1, you can buy us all a beer.l    H ""Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"" <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>C wrote in message news:00A0F686.E37D022E@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU...oH > In article <MtaO8.7014$831.5227@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>,% "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:l > >Product Details > >  > >Paperback: 448 pagespL > >Publisher: Digital Equipment Corp; ISBN: 1555582648; 1st edition (June 1, > >2002)  > >Amazon.com Sales Rank: 85,071 > K > That June 1 date would have been right if I'd hit all my deadlines, whichg > I emphatically didn't. >  > > # > >So who really IS your publisher?n >oK > Digital Press, an imprint of Butterworth-Heinemann, which is itself owneds byJ > the journal publishers Reed-Elsevier.  Digital Press used to be owned byJ > DEC but was flogged off under Palmer along with the backlist.  I'm still proud  > to be under that imprint.r >e >s > >eK > >And to everyone who frequents this ng, let's help Alan's book reach #1 -u buyvF > >a copy for each of your unix/Windows fan friends/bosses so they can learn. >l@ > Yow.  I don't think there's anything I can safely say to that. > 	 > -- Alan  >2 >:L ============================================================================ ===M2 >  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUA >  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056C >  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 
 94309-0210 >sL ============================================================================ ===  >s   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:22:47 GMTW1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?' Message-ID: <3D09572A.D8080E28@fsi.net>t   Aristotle SnowNasis wrote: > G > In article <3D07F12B.7303EF4E@fsi.net>, djesys.nospam@fsi.net says...7 > >0+ > >Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:i > >> > >> David J. Dachtera wrote:a > >>! > >> > Aristotle SnowNasis wrote:V > >>K > >> > That's what documentation is for. However, since none comes with thezO > >> > average UN*X variant, the man pages are about all there is - ANYWHERE! -4N > >> > other than things like the on-line FreeBSD doc.'s and such. Even today,> > >> > there is still a great preference for hard-copy doc.'s. > >> > > >> > > >>I > >> I have to dissagree. Solaris for example comes with something calledoF > >> answerbook which is full doumentation on CD. If you don't want toL > >> use that and have a browser connected to the internet then docs.sun.comG > >> and or sunsolve also provide full documentation and patch reports.l > >eJ > >...and if you don't have another computer running, your screwed without > >the hard-copy.  > 7 > No, you go and look at the manuals (the PRINTED ones)h  H O.k. I've got, quote you, "answerbook which is full doumentation on CD"." Where did the hard-copy come from?   -- i David J. Dachterad dba DJE Systemst http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:35:35 GMT<1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?' Message-ID: <3D095A28.1B6BF4FE@fsi.net>=   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > ) > In article <3D07F50E.97CC8F9D@fsi.net>, 6 >  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > |> Bill Gunshannon wrote:  > |> >. > |> > In article <3D058592.1AF7C0BC@fsi.net>,; > |> >  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:,	 > |> > |>-N > |> > |> That's what documentation is for. However, since none comes with theP > |> > |> average UN*X variant, the man pages are about all there is - ANYWHERE! > |> >- > |> > Haven't been to the bookstore lately??u > |>G > |> Actually, I've been to the bookstores and the computer stores, but H > |> nowhere did I see a Linux or *BSD distro. that comes with three big- > |> boxes of hard-copy doc.'s like VMS does.t > D > And how many VMS distros did you see in those same stores??  Let's  > stick with the original point,  ? Hhmmm... I thought that *WAS* the point: that VMS comes with ann extensive docset, UN*X doesn't.t  * > which was that there is no documentationE > for Unix beyond the man pages "ANYWHERE"  which is obviously wrong.   . ...to a point. Show me the UN*X equivalent of:   o DCL DictionaryA o System Management Utilities Vol 1 & 2, including the text whichi#   explains the "SYSGEN" parameters.R o RTL Routines Manual(s) o System Services Manual  o RMS Guide to File Applications  8 ...or any of the the doc.'s not mentioned here listed atD http://www.djesys.com/vms/freevms/document.html (those links are allD dead, but I'll try to get those reposted somewhere else as soon as I can).A  F > I haven't looked lately, but there used to be books with distros forE > both Linux and FreeBSD in those same bookstores.  I would guess theeB > reason to not do that has much to do with the advent of hi-speedD > INTERNET in the house, free iso's of these distros being availableD > on the INTERNET and the long lead time to actually get a book (andA > the distros with it) into the stores.  None of these distros is 6 > stagnating.  If it's a year old, it's been improved.  H Problem is, everyone else also assumes that high-speed broadband is moreC ubiquitous than it really is. Truth be told, the last number anyonewH mentioned here (that I can recall) or on chi.internet was that braodband9 internet access is available is less than 10% of the U.S.h  F > Oh, and I have &.3 for the Aplpha right here and it didn't come withG > "three big boxes of hard-copy doc.'s"  It came with 4 little book anda2 > 2 printed papers totalling about 1.5" of shelf.   H Ya gotta subscribe to the Media and Documentation Update Service (p.k.a. MDDS).   > I have seen the GreyI > Wall (I still have my Ultrix Grey Wall) and I have even seen the Orange E > Wall, but I don't think hard copy documentation is the norm for VMSoE > any more than it would be for Unix.  But, regardless of which shipslF > with more documentation, there ican still be little doubt that thereG > is much more third party, aftermarket documentation for Unix than forD > VMS.  G Of course, a lot of that is due to the availability of information from G which to write those books. Most of the "food" for such books about VMS E is considered intellectual property and much more difficult to secure  publication rights to.   -- C David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systems. http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/d   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:42:45 GMTt1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>a$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?' Message-ID: <3D095BD5.604C04AF@fsi.net>    Aristotle SnowNasis wrote: > G > In article <3D058592.1AF7C0BC@fsi.net>, djesys.nospam@fsi.net says...a > >i > >Aristotle SnowNasis wrote:, > >>M > >> In article <adoch4$jga$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov>, Scandora@cmt.anl.gov says...h > >> >: > >> >"Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message( > >> >news:3CFF3B6D.ED24C47D@spam.not...* > >> >> "Scandora, Anthony (35048)" wrote: > >> >> ... D > >> >> > > Did I mention that UNIX is shit/crap and C fits well in?	 > >> >> >gQ > >> >> > There is a lot not to like about it, but once properly configured, UNIXa	 > >> >cantQ > >> >> > run reliably and do a lot of work, and most of what's wrong with C alsoeK > >> >> > applies to BLISS and to Macro.  A lot can be said about .ascid v.  > .asciz; > >> >> > strings, but that's a lanugage independent issue.t > >> >>oD > >> >> The point is how much time you need to get it in that state.C > >> >> Having BLISS and Macro similar flaws doesn't make C better.> > >> > > >> >P > >> >It's annoying, but not too difficult to learn where those config files areO > >> >and what goes in them.  I suspect someone who doesn't know VMS would moan M > >> >about having to learn AUTOGEN and MODPARAMS.  Once you know your stuff,n > it's> > >> >pretty easy to configure either a Linux or a VMS system. > >>. > >> I'd agree. VMS can be so obtuse at times, > >rC > >Examples, please? Hard to understand the reference without them.t >  > Oh, autogen for one...    What about it? Fully documented.   > >e) > >> whereas MOST Unix have configurationnO > >> files in centrally located areas. Also, help on VMS is quite brief and not M > >> always very helpful. On the other hand, man pages, while sometimes being N > >> tautological are full of information, especially that parts that describe > the + > >> files used in such-and-such a program.  > >tG > >That's what documentation is for. However, since none comes with thegK > >average UN*X variant, the man pages are about all there is - ANYWHERE! -> > P > Not used unix in a long time, I take it? Published articles, documentation are" > every bit (and better than VMS).  ; ...and how many of those actually ship with the o.s. media?   , > I'm not into a flame war here as both haveO > their merits, it's just nonsensical to bash one simply because you prefer theh > other.  D Who's "bash"-ing (pun?)? I thought this about plentitude (or not) of8 documentation this is packed/shippe with the o.s. media.  J > >other than things like the on-line FreeBSD doc.'s and such. Even today,: > >there is still a great preference for hard-copy doc.'s. > 9 > As VMS manuals are basically the help system printed...c  F You're referring, of course, to the DCL dictionary. Otherwise, hardly.   > >tN > >> By the way, I'm an administrator on several unix and vms platforms (vax & > >> alpha). > >>Q > >> Overall, VMS has stood still for years while Unix has marched on (especially> > toO > >> the degree of products provided by the likes of HP, Sun, Compaq to enhance  > thei > >> "unix experience"...) > >hI > >Compared to VMS, IMO, it *NEEDS* a whole hell of a lot of enhancement!m > > > As above, it's obvious your experience with Unix is limited.  
 Try again.   -- a David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systemsn http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:24:17 GMTm* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?B Message-ID: <BldO8.228262$Gs.20517317@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D095A28.1B6BF4FE@fsi.net...r   ...t  J > Problem is, everyone else also assumes that high-speed broadband is moreE > ubiquitous than it really is. Truth be told, the last number anyone J > mentioned here (that I can recall) or on chi.internet was that braodband; > internet access is available is less than 10% of the U.S.o  K Availability in less than 10% of the *area* of the U.S. might be believablesL (though even that would have to exclude satellite access, wouldn't it?), butG not availability to less than 10% of the population (even excluding thep satellite option).   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 05:21:07 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)s$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-S9xTg8o0s0q6@localhost>n  6 On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:55:21 UTC, "David J. Dachtera"  <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:   snipped... >   > J > ....and if you don't have another computer running, your screwed without > the hard-copy.  D True Dave but that's why everybody/household _has_ to have at least C two. I can't remember a Win9x/NT install upgrade I've done at home eA where I haven't needed access to the Internet to get a fix, bios   upgrade or driver.   -- n Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:00:37 GMTa1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>-( Subject: Re: DECServer break key problem' Message-ID: <3D096008.3A5E3AA7@fsi.net>i   Alan Frame wrote:t >  > Hello All, > 9 > Can anyone please help me with a DECServer 700 problem.'F > The Decserver is used to access terminals from a LAN, and one of theH > terminals requires a "break" condition to be applied to the RS232 line+ > before it will bring up the login prompt.xD > I have tried everything that I can see in the configuration of the5 > server, but can't get it to pass a break condition. 3 > Has anyone any ideas ( firstly, can it be done?).   < I don't think so - that is to say, I never managed to do it.  D > For completeness, I telnet into the decserver using the appropriteE > port ( 2005 ), and from there need to be able to map a key that the F > decserver will understand and pass the break condition down the port > to the terminal.  F I was I had a suggestion. Perhaps someone else will chime in with heir experience.y   -- e David J. Dachteram dba DJE Systemso http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:02:15 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>d( Subject: Re: DECServer break key problem, Message-ID: <3D096ABC.374F90D2@videotron.ca>  H > > The Decserver is used to access terminals from a LAN, and one of theJ > > terminals requires a "break" condition to be applied to the RS232 line- > > before it will bring up the login prompt.u  K There is a way to configure a DECserver port to pass the BREAK condition. Iu, don't remember off-hand what it was though.   $ I once managed the following config:  Q [terminal]----[Decserver 200]----ethernet----[DECserver 200]-----[OPA0: of a VAX]   N One of the requirements was to have the terminal issue the BREAK to the VAX to' get the >>> prompt from the remote vax.7  L As I recall, you need to redefine the key to get you to the Local> prompt toJ something else than break, and also do one of the set commands to make the break transparent.  . This was on DECserver 200s with modem control.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 04:24:12 GMTe+ From: Jeff Campbell <jcampbell@ins-msi.com> ( Subject: Re: DECServer break key problem+ Message-ID: <3D09657A.A74FA882@ins-msi.com>n   Alan Frame wrote:v >  > Hello All, > 9 > Can anyone please help me with a DECServer 700 problem. F > The Decserver is used to access terminals from a LAN, and one of theH > terminals requires a "break" condition to be applied to the RS232 line+ > before it will bring up the login prompt.sD > I have tried everything that I can see in the configuration of the5 > server, but can't get it to pass a break condition.s3 > Has anyone any ideas ( firstly, can it be done?).r > D > For completeness, I telnet into the decserver using the appropriteE > port ( 2005 ), and from there need to be able to map a key that theiF > decserver will understand and pass the break condition down the port > to the terminal. > + > Any suggestions would be gladly received.n >  > thanks in advance   < I have a PDP-11/83 console connected to port 13 on a 700-16.  G I enabled the telnet listener on all ports and then enabled connectionsl on port 2013  * $ telnet ds701 2013 /term=vt500 /log=pdp11  A Here is the log of a telnet session to port 2013 on my DS 700-16.a ============   .s   .VERSION  $ XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5   REVISION: F0 BOOTED FROM DU0i RESTART ADDRESS: 152000.  @ .                    ! here I escaped back to the TELNET> prompt.                        and entered a SEND BRK.  C @                    ! I have the 11 setup to halt on break. The 11s0                        halted it's @ ODT prompt.  - @0/000002            ! examine some memory...w 00000002/000000  00000004/000006  00000006/000000  00000010/000012  00000012/000000  00000014/000016  @e0 @r0/000000           ! some machine registers...
 R1/000120 
 R2/154144 
 R3/000000 
 R4/111154 
 R5/155662 
 R6/060534 
 R7/112404 = @p                   ! here I continued CPU execution of XXDPx   .s   .VERSION  $ XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5   REVISION: F0 BOOTED FROM DU0a RESTART ADDRESS: 152000t   .DATEc   01-JAN-87            !  8-)k   .e  
 =============   A So, yes you can send a break to an external terminal remotely via  telnet.J@ But I don't know how you can map a key to do SEND BRK in telnet.    
 Jeff Campbell8 n8wxs@arrl.net   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 13:31:38 -0700" From: cstranslations@msn.com (Joe) Subject: Re: DECWindows "hang"= Message-ID: <d56d1c2d.0206131231.51e6ab1b@posting.google.com>0  o "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<3G1O8.18$SR5.365711@news.cpqcorp.net>...m > What is the graphics adapter?  > F > What is the contents of DECW$SERVER_0_ERROR.LOG when you are in this > condition? > ( > Are the LEDs blinking on the keyboard? > I > The only "blue/gray" screen I can think of (and I'm just guessing here,tI > because I can't see what you mean by blue/gray) is that it is in screen 
 > saver mode.I >  > _Fredh  D Blue/gray - in the course of pulling my hair out yesterday and todayE I've seen it described elsewhere as "gray basket weave." Haven't seene1 anything "elsewhere" that's solved the problem...n  A Looked through the docs. Bumped BYTLIM up on SYSTEM a bit. Didn't  help.p  C Something I've never really paid attention to till yesterday when IeF was tasked with figuring out what's wrong is that if you log in on the@ console, create a decterm, then say right click out there on the@ desktop to logout is that the CDE disappears leaving the decterm? floating on a black background. Logout of the decterm then that=C disappears leaving the "gray basket weave". This seems to leave WSAEC devices hanging around until a set display/delete is issued against A them. Didn't pay attention to WSA devices 1st thing this morning.4  F decw$server_0_error.log doesn't seem to contain anything in the way ofD error messages. Just a bunch of startup/initalization looking stuff.  E Not sure about the LEDs. Just went down to OPS and the monitor hasn'teE made up its mind to go into power save mode (I'm assuming you mean insC power save mode)since the last time I was down there but was rather : defiantly staring down all comers with its loginless face.  C At the moment I'm thinking that the "something is messing with OPA">E per-se idea was incorrect. I'm waiting for the system manager to telleC me that any and all relavent patches have been applied to DECWMotife 1.2-4 under 7.1-1H2.   Joea   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 20:13 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)l) Subject: Re: DECwindows various questions - Message-ID: <13JUN200220134261@gerg.tamu.edu>-  / koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org writes...d] }In article <3D086416.9F8F87F9@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:nN }> As I understand, having a DECTERM actually involves 2 processes. The actualM }> VMS/DCL process, and a DECTERM process that handles the window and dectermn }> menus etc. Correct ?l }> e } H }   Wrong.  This is not UNIX.  The window manager is a separeate processH }   and handles some of the windoing issues for all windows.  Everything }   else is one process. } I }   Unlike UNIX, VMS does not use a separate process to provide a commandpG }   parser, it uses a separate mode within the same process (supervisoreH }   vs. user).  This is one of the major design differences between UNIXH }   and VMS:  UNIX tries to do everything in two modes (kernel or user),C }   VMS takes advantage of four (kernel, executive, supervisor, andj
 }   user).  C Except that you are not right - farther off than the one asking theG question, actually.   C When you fire up a DECterm, you not only get the user's process butsE you also get a detached process with a name like DECW$TE_xxxx running>B the DECW$TERMINAL image. Even if you fire up more than one DECtermB there is only one such process - I'm not sure if there is an upperE limit before you get another, or if there is only ever one (per user,vG that is - each user that fires up a DECterm causes another one of these>5 to be created as they run under that user's account).>   --- Carl   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 13:07:24 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) % Subject: Re: Fibre Disk vs. SCSI Disk = Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206131207.27b0e953@posting.google.com>s  n "David McKenzie" <david.mckenzie@paradigm-shift.biz> wrote in message news:<3d0705a3_1@news.iprimus.com.au>...F > In my experience HSGs are *much* faster than HSJs (same type of disk > behind the controller)  D In a separate e-mail exchange, David clarified that he was comparingB HSG80s with HSJ50s, not with HSJ80s.  HSJ80s are based on the same? technology generation as HSG80s, and I would classify HSJ80s as E comparable in performance in most cases (except for applications with ? large transfer sizes and high data rates, where Fibre Channel'so  bandwidth outshines that of CI).: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:12:49 +0000 (UTC)t( From: "Bill Sticker" <nospam@nospam.com>$ Subject: Re: Grant "$ level access"?1 Message-ID: <aeb1sh$9l0$1@knossos.btinternet.com>t  K To be perfectly honest, if you don't know how to do this, you shouldn't  bes the one doing it.sJ Are you sure that you are not trying to break in to someone else's system?  , "Mat" <mjriain@hotmail.com> wrote in message7 news:1651e909.0206130831.7a871d33@posting.google.com...y > Hello! > L > Can someone tell me how I would grant "$ level access" to a user under VMS 7.1? >o	 > Cheers,o >t >  > MJRl   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 20:28 CDTt' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)t$ Subject: Re: Grant "$ level access"?- Message-ID: <13JUN200220284879@gerg.tamu.edu>   # mjriain@hotmail.com (Mat) writes...i }Hello!c } P }Can someone tell me how I would grant "$ level access" to a user under VMS 7.1? }  }Cheers, }  }  }MJR  G Step 1: Define "$ level access". (There is no such terminology in VMS.)p   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:39:46 GMTx0 From: Wayne Morrison <Wayne.Morrison@compaq.com>4 Subject: Re: howto create self-extracting zip files?* Message-ID: <3D091D2C.B77781BD@compaq.com>  M The initial version of CDSA for OpenVMS is not extensible.  However, the CDSAtN architecture is designed to be extensible, and we are planning to support thisK extensibility in a future release of OpenVMS.  That said, the CDSA shippingaO with OpenVMS V7.3-1 comes with both RSA and SSL (OpenSSL) cryptographic servicer
 providers.  L Smart cards, biometric and similar devices could be supported via additionalO "plug-in" modules.  Some of these could come as standard with OpenVMS CDSA, andwN other might be provided by third parties.  CDSA on OpenVMS V7.3-1 does not yetK support the extensibility necessary for this to happen, as indicated above.2  N As for a Certificate Authority, and management of certificates... we'd be veryN interested in feedback on what you expect to need in this area.  CDSA does notL include a CA, and certificates within CDSA are handled programmatically, not interactively.   	Wayne Morrisons 	CDSA Project Leader 	OpenVMS Security group@   "Jan C. Vorbrggen" wrote: > I > > Encryption support is part of OpenVMS as of V7.3-1 with the inclusionmH > > of CDSA (Common Data Security Architecture) in the operating system. >  > Not having the manual,: > - is it extensible (e.g., using ECC instead of RSA/DSS)?3 > - will it support Class 2 and 3 smarcard readers?t > > > > When/if you'll see signed patches is yet to be determined. > G > Make sure you consult the right people on getting the trust hierarchyaF > right, especially in establishing the root/CA certificate. Sometimes4 > paper can be the correct communications channel... > 
 >         Jant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:04:18 -0700n# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>d+ Subject: RE: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEOBFCAA.tom@kednos.com>t  7 Data is one thing, and alias overlay coding is another.n   >-----Original Message-----o9 >From: Bill Gunshannon [mailto:bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu]O' >Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 10:29 AMu >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com, >Subject: Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans >  >>, >In article <3D08B797.31F1268E@caltech.edu>,+ > David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:t >|> JF Mezei wrote:h >|> >  >|> > Larry Kilgallen wrote:C >|> > > Who would have thought that someone from Gartner would not x >know aboutr, >|> > > little-endian vs big-endian issues ? >|> > B >|> > I realise that this is an issue that one must consider when  >doing porting.p= >|> > However, for most application software, is that a show o >stopper or just somet( >|> > small issue to must be looked at ? >|> C >|> I suppose it depends on what software you are running.  If the . >vendor supportsD >|> both platforms and some sort of platform neutral data dump then  >you can migrateA >|> your data without too much trouble.  But if no such platform a
 >neutral dumpnD >|> format exists and your data is in any way binary, you're in for  >a world of @ >|> pain.  Writing a program to swap the bytes in data files is  >doable if you havei? >|> 100% complete documentation on the data format, and may be h >impossible otherwise. sA >|> I've run into this often enough. For instance, consider this t >simple format:k >|> . >|> int4 (length count) | data of that length ; >|>   | int4 (length count) | data of that length  | etc...e >|> D >|> If you know the format then converting it is easy.  If you don't* >|> there's no simple way to convert it.   >|>e >fC >If it were me, especially considering how inexpensive (realtive to G >the value of business data being lost) while I still had the original vD >machines, programs and data, I would write programs to read the oldC >and write it out at the highest available accuracy in ASCII.  ThatuF >would mean that a bunch of int4's would take up a lot of storage, butG >at least you could be fairly certain of being able to import them backeF >into what ever platform end out moving too.  It would also seem to beA >a good hedge against possibly undetectable, subtle losses in the E >conversion process if you opt for trying to swap bits and bytes and M >words and long words, etc.y >oG >I'm actually surprised that none of the vendors courting other peoples0H >business has written a generic program that can take a data description* >and handle this conversion automatically. >$ >bill7 >@ >-- K >Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesnE >bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.v >University of Scranton   | B >Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>    >t >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.(; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).n@ >Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/2002 >i --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/2002t   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 18:20:08 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)4+ Subject: Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plansa< Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206131720.21173dd@posting.google.com>  u Steven Whatley <swhatley@blkbox.com> wrote in message news:<SS3O8.225404$Oa1.20956696@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...y2 > I was wandering what HP was going to do with MPEC > after getting VMS.  Now I wonder what HP is going to do with VMS.t  E It's a keeper.  VMS has more than 10 times the installed base of MPE,tB and somewhere close to 40 times the annual revenue, so it would be4 foolish for HP to call Dr. Kevorkian to "treat" VMS.  @ VMS will likely live long enough that we can discuss the port to, another architecture in another 12-15 years.: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:56:17 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>m+ Subject: Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plansr, Message-ID: <3D094D3F.B55C4DE2@videotron.ca>   Keith Parris wrote:lG > It's a keeper.  VMS has more than 10 times the installed base of MPE,iD > and somewhere close to 40 times the annual revenue, so it would be6 > foolish for HP to call Dr. Kevorkian to "treat" VMS.  L As soon as VMS shows negative growth for X quarters, the HP strategists willM conclude that VMS is on its way out, stop marketing it, suggest VMS customersoJ should consider migrating to HP-UX, all the while continuing to state thatF they will continue to support existing customers for a few more years.  # Oh, the above has already happened.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:12:05 -0500pC From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com>.; Subject: Re: Mail masquerading using Compaq TCP/IP servicesiH Message-ID: <craig.berry-8EA03C.14115413062002@news.directvinternet.com>  @ In article <lkSN8.294081$o66.763673@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,"  "AWK" <aweisz@bigpond.com> wrote:  H > I'm a Unix guy struggling to find my feet on a VMS host. I'm trying toK > configure what I'd call mail masquerading (or at least, sendmail calls itrH > that) - I want mail from the host user@y.x.com.au to send out with theK > sender address changed to user@x.com.au instead. From what I can see from M > the TCP/IP services manuals, I think what I'm after is a substitute domain,oL > x.com.au. But when I set up a substitute domain, the mail never leaves theL > host's mail queue (it should be delivered to a smarthost handling the mail > for the whole domain)e  H I too have found SMTP rather difficult to configure.  I would recommend H cranking up the logging level (there's some logical name that does this G -- it's in the docs) and find out exactly what the service thinks it's a doing.  G It does seem to me, though, that you'd want your zone to be y.x.com.au rF rather than x.com.au.  I think specifying it as the latter means that D mail for anywhere in x.com.au is to be delivered locally.  Have you E tried sending mail to an address in an entirely different domain and .& checked whether that hits the gateway?   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:22:10 +0100 (MET)l9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>N; Subject: Re: Mail masquerading using Compaq TCP/IP services ; Message-ID: <01KIWA0MZR8W96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>o  H > I'm a Unix guy struggling to find my feet on a VMS host. I'm trying toK > configure what I'd call mail masquerading (or at least, sendmail calls itaH > that) - I want mail from the host user@y.x.com.au to send out with the3 > sender address changed to user@x.com.au instead.    G /SUBSTITUTE_DOMAIN is correct.  Note also the TCPIP$SMTP_FROM logical, uD which allows one to set the From address to anything and allows the ) fine-grain control of logical names.  :-)e  H This also makes the machine ACCEPT mail sent to the substitute domain.  G One can have just one by setting a logical.  (Aliases entered with SET tA HOST will also cause it to accept email pointing to those hosts.)=   > From what I can see fromM > the TCP/IP services manuals, I think what I'm after is a substitute domain, L > x.com.au. But when I set up a substitute domain, the mail never leaves theL > host's mail queue (it should be delivered to a smarthost handling the mail > for the whole domain)   H You need to set the alternate gateway.  (Note: the alternate gateway is E really the main gateway; the general gateway is for non-SMTP mail.)  t Point it to your mail router.   8 > I too have found SMTP rather difficult to configure.    H True; there is some lack of documentation.  In particular, one can have I other TCPIP applications working fine but still have many things to keep 2 SMTP from working.  I > It does seem to me, though, that you'd want your zone to be y.x.com.au  H > rather than x.com.au.  I think specifying it as the latter means that F > mail for anywhere in x.com.au is to be delivered locally.  Have you G > tried sending mail to an address in an entirely different domain and  ( > checked whether that hits the gateway?  B If I recall correctly, stuff outside the zone is sent through the F alternate gateway (there is a logical to force this behaviour for all D mail) and other stuff is not.  Thus, I don't think it has to be the D local machine per se, but could be to some locally visible machine.  (Not sure about this.) 2   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:19:47 -0400d$ From: Bob Sudderth <rsq@y12.doe.gov> Subject: Re: MOZILLA and CSWB.+ Message-ID: <3D08F052.997A173E@y12.doe.gov>h  = What will CSWB V1.0 give us that we don't get in Mozilla 1.0?s  , Will CSWB become a part of each VMS release?   How soon is soon?h   Bob"   Colin Blake wrote: >  > Didier Morandi wrote:s > 6 > >Mozilla 1.0 up and running (without CSWB uninstall) > >The build nr is 2002053008a; > >It does not seem to have the 128 bits encryption featurei > > G > Mozilla 1.0 DOES have 128 bit security, the same as CSWB T1.0. Why doa > you say it doesn't?e > G > For the record, CSWB T1.0 is based on Mozilla 0.9.6, and is thereforedD > pretty old by now. CSWB V1.0 is based on a Mozilla 1.0 release and > should be available soon.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:03:47 GMTt* From: Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com>5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... 5 Message-ID: <130620021458004053%paul.anderson@hp.com>m  7 > From: Linus Torvalds (torvalds@penguin.transmeta.com)n4 > Subject: Re: Major Linux kernel bug found by AMD! $ > Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy > View this article only y  > Date: 2002-06-12 12:08:41 PST  >  t? > In article <d7791aa1.0206121019.73a55b96@posting.google.com>,r+ > Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote:i >iE > > Why would one not like the bulletproof security, the worlds >bestkD > > clustering, the best realtime platform, the most scalable OS out" > > there, the worlds fastest jvm? > F > You left out "..  the worlds worst interfaces, the most braindamagedH > filesystems, and tied to the worlds most expensive dead-end hardware."   Ouch!h  I > Yes, tastes differ. And maybe it's gotten more useful since I last usedsG > it on a VAX (I've never actually used it on an alpha, despite readingaJ > abotu the internals). But the whole system is designed for databases and9 > large embedded usage, and it's positively user-hostile.-  E OpenVMS is user-hostile?  DIRECTORY instead of LS?  SEARCH instead ofl GREP?  HELP instead of MAN?i   I guess tastes do differ.s   Paul   -- 0  Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineeringi   Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 13:12:31 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)s5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...h= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206131212.4095fa2c@posting.google.com>s  l bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0206121853.b640909@posting.google.com>...C > I posted recently in comp.os.linux.advocacy and got this responseo2 > from what appears to be no one other than Linus.  < All I can say is I'm embarrassed on behalf of the entire VMS
 community.  E Linus Torvalds is certainly no moron, and he's done (and continues toiC do) a lot of good for the Unix community.  They just have differentw, priorities and needs than the VMS community.  F It'll be hard to get Unix folks to acknowledge the unique capabilities# of VMS  with this type of approach. : ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:42:03 +0200eB From: Michiel Erens <I.dont.want.spam@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... 7 Message-ID: <3D09039B.7A65@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>p   Bob Ceculski wrote:t > C > I posted recently in comp.os.linux.advocacy and got this responseh@ > from what appears to be no one other than Linus.  I don't knowB > if this was really him, maybe Larry can verify that, but here is > what he said so far ...   E I'm almost sure it was him. If you search in Google on author "Linus rD Torvalds" and keyword "VMS" you will find more unflattering quotes.  Here are some :   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  E "shared libs should be totally transparent to the programmer (and areeG under linux and most even remotely nice systems: I obviously don't findc VAX/VMS even remotely nice)."a  H "It may have started out as a good design (but quite frankly I doubt it:8 anybody who bases his design on VMS can't be all good)."  C "POSIX still allows for a lot of reasonable programs to be written rF portably, with the hope that they would work on any number of systems 2 (including VMS/POSIX and other horrors from hell)"  F " By early -91 I had bought a PC, and linux v0.01 was ready in August F -91. That wouldn't have been possible with some other systems I could  mention (VMS..  arghh)."  E "The reason unix has been so successful is that it's actually a very cH clean and simple operating system.  I would seriously doubt anybody willF implement VMS in a year (or 5, and even after that I wouldn't want to  actually use it :-)"  E "The greatness of UNIX comes from "everything is a stream of bytes".  G That's something that almost nobody got right before UNIX. Remember VMSlG structured files? Did anybody ever realize what an absolutely _idiotic_c8 crock the NT "CopyFile()" thing is for the same reason?"  G "The virtual consoles also have some new screen-handling commands: theyJE confirm even better to vt200 control codes than 0.11. Special graphicrC characters etc: you can well use them as terminals to VMS (althoughc& that's a shameful waste of resources)"  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   I don't think he likes VMS.a   -- ME Posted by news://news.nb.nu    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:07:59 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> 5 Subject: RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...0J Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E04139E4E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;g 	charset="iso-8859-1"D   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: bob@instantwhip.com [mailto:bob@instantwhip.com]  ) Wow, this is amusing -- where to start...l    G > Are you?  Why would one not like the bulletproof security, the worldsOG > best clustering, the best realtime platform, the most scalable OS outt8 > there, the worlds fastest jvm?  Why are you trying to   @ I'm not sure I'd be bragging about the jvm just yet.  Not saying> that it isn't the fastest, of course, but just that this is a ? relatively new development, and it may be outclassed by anotherp@ jvm in the future, especially if development slips on it, as has* been known to happen with VMS software. :/   > reinvent the wheel?C  B The whole idea of linux was to re-invent the wheel, bob. :)  If itE were a copy of VMS, they would be re-inventing the wheel there, also.o? It's a good idea, though, because, if nothing else, the people oB involved might learn something.  If they produce something useful, that's a side benefit.  G > If VMS is so lousy, why did Bill Gates hire Cutler and use stolen VMSt@ > MICA code for NT if it was so lousy?  Why did Intel just grab   E Oh my... I have to side with Linus on this one.  MS either don't knowe> or don't care about good design, so this isn't a good example.  D You might have tried "what is the longest recorded uptime for a UnixE system; and for a Linux system?"  This might drive an important point C home, or it might piss them off.  The point is that, no matter how ,D much you like or hate the user-interface, VMS is well designed, and B stable.  In my opinion it excels in this area much more than Unix,+ which is itself light-years beyond windows.,  A You can argue about user interfaces -- which seems to be Linus's uA problem with VMS -- forever, and you won't get anywhere, because N= it's really all in the opinion of the people who are arguing.i   > the Alphan: > engineers and secrets so they can build a decent 64 bit  > platform?  Why b  A Now, I know that you meant this in the future tense, as in "later C itanic chips might be decent because of these engineers," and LinusaD obviously took it to mean that "itanic is a decent 64-bit platform."C I don't think this is a good argument either, even if it were taken B the way it was meant, because this is going to be a serious uphillB struggle for the Alpha engineers.  I fault intel's original designB if they fail, but I still don't know whether itanic can be made to7 be acceptable. (Which is a step below decent, still...),  E > was it that the only environment left standing from 9/11 was a VMS  ? > cluster?  Is defcon a bunch of idiots when they claim VMS to d  C Um -- because it is a cluster?  This brings us back to the argument|@ about whether Linux can have real clustering today.  I won't getC into this, but I will say that MOSIX (from the hebrew university ofo# jerusalem, I think) is interesting.    > be "Cool and1 > unhackable"?  Why is Alpha/VMS so lousy to you?w  B Well, they possibly are.  Even if we agree with their conclusion, C you can be a lot of the people at that conference aren't too smart.t/ Again, this may not be a good line of argument.    Now to Linus's comments:  ? > I leart VMS before I learnt UNIX, but I've happily forgotten  
 > most of it.u  = I know where he's coming from, having been introduced to VMS  ; from a Unix background, and basically disliking it until I  = figured out enough of it myself (because nobody can teach you  about it if they don't know...)t  D > I've got the big book on VMS internals on the alpha, and I've read > through much of it.n  A That's a good start, but one has to put things in the perspectivea of practical use.g  B > So call me VMS-illiterate, but I know enough to be dangerous. In2 > particular, I know enough to dislike the system.  A I would venture to say that he simply doesn't know enough to likelA the system.  VMS is very different from a lot of things, and thato8 makes the learning curve steep.  Many won't accept that.  F > You left out "..  the worlds worst interfaces, the most braindamagedH > filesystems, and tied to the worlds most expensive dead-end hardware."  F Obviously this was a low shot.  Linus must not dislike Alpha too much,D since he used to develop Linux on them.  I would venture to say thatD he's probably as upset with compaq for discontinuing them as many of; us are, and this could be the thrust of the second comment.d  G As for "interfaces," that's awfully vague, isn't?  Should we assume he vD means user interface?  Again, that's an opinion, and he can have it.  E Filesystems?  Well, it has ODS/FILES-11.  I regard FILES-11/ODS as a mD wonderfully elegant and simple design.  I have studied the ODS1 specC in detail (with an eye towards implementing a piece of software to  G read and write it), and I think it shows a great amount of forethought.   E It certainly has its problems, but it could be extended pretty easily3J to correct them.  That's something I can't say for most Unix filesystems.  ;)  = > abotu the internals). But the whole system is designed for M > databases and 9 > large embedded usage, and it's positively user-hostile.s  B Some of the most complex tasks one could hope to accomplish with aD computer.  If you can do that, obviously you can do "simple" things.  @ Again, he picks on the user interface -- this is getting kind of: old.  If that's the only problem, there is a port of bash.  D > The intel 64-bit people came largely from HP, and nobody sane ever/ > called the Itanic a "decent 64-bit platform".   ? I would add that the PA-RISC is not nearly as bad as itanic.  IP don't know what happened ;)e  0 > Because even terrorists won't touch the thing?  > Obviously he's being stupid here.  I'm sure it was a joke, but it's in poor taste. ;)   Chris-  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL  > "Confutatis maledictus, flammis acribus addictus, voca me cum ; benedictis.  Oro supplex et acclinis, cor contritunt quasi e' cinis, gere curarn mei finis." -Requiem     --=_IS_MIME_Boundary) Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-asciin Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitt Content-Disposition: inlinea  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------n  C The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,M  1 protected from disclosure, and may be privileged.t  N The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)  L of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,  P you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of   ? this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. -  N If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately  > by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.  
 Thank you.  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------i   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary--   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 22:49:41 GMTg1 From: Richard Banks <rbanks_@_arel_com_au.nospam>f5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...h; Message-ID: <Xns922D59A231CD2rbanksatarelcomau@61.9.128.12>r  * Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> wrote in! news:3D0861A1.2C025ADB@spam.not: d   > E > I also don't understand why pricing and EOL hardware qualifies for  F > technical disadvantages of an OS. If that were the case Linux would : > suffer from the same criticism as it runs on Alphas too. >   G VMS ONLY runs on Alphas - you have to have an Alpha to use VMS.  Linux hF runs on Alphas, Vaxen, i386, Itanium, PPC, Sparc, iPaqs and plenty of G other platforms.  You are not restricted to a single hardware platform.e  F Why do you think so many people have thought about and tried to start ( projects to port VMS to other platforms?   > D > I don't understand how an OS can be designed specifically for DBs.  D Ever heard of an AS/400.  Their OS is purely database driven - file  system and all.l   > @ > I also don't understand what he means with "embedded usage". I@ > normally understand "embedded systems" as quite different from > workstations and servers.   G iPaq's, Jornadas, etc are all embedded systems.  Linux is also used in 12 some television set top boxes if I remember right.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:20:36 -0400s' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>@5 Subject: RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...lT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660785@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Chris,  G >>> Obviously he's being stupid here.  I'm sure it was a joke, but it'sx in poor taste. ;)<<<  E Yep, poor taste, but even more than that, one would expect someone ofTD his stature and position to understand that there has never been norI will there ever be a single OS that is the best for every requirement.=20c  G That would be like saying one automobile in the future will dominate soe? much that there will only be one model that everyone will want.a  , With these postings, assuming they are his -B - Not that he will likely care, but Linus took a huge step down in# credibility from my perspective.=20rD - It tells me that he is not likely to have an open mind to feedback% that does not come from a UNIX focus.mC - Far worse - imho, it does not bode well for Linux futures to haveiE someone like this at the wheel. Having one person only driving kernel > stuff will start to show the weaknesses with this approach.=20   As an example:) http://news.com.com/2100-1001-826093.html-) "Torvalds, developers at odds over Linux"r   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantt Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Serviceso Voice: 613-592-4660e Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----5 From: Christopher Smith [mailto:csmith@amdocs.com]=20u Sent: June 13, 2002 5:08 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr5 Subject: RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...a     > -----Original Message-----8 > From: bob@instantwhip.com [mailto:bob@instantwhip.com]  ) Wow, this is amusing -- where to start...r    J > Are you?  Why would one not like the bulletproof security, the worlds=20J > best clustering, the best realtime platform, the most scalable OS out=207 > there, the worlds fastest jvm?  Why are you trying tot  H I'm not sure I'd be bragging about the jvm just yet.  Not saying that it8 isn't the fastest, of course, but just that this is a=20F relatively new development, and it may be outclassed by another jvm inG the future, especially if development slips on it, as has been known to: happen with VMS software. :/   > reinvent the wheel?d  G The whole idea of linux was to re-invent the wheel, bob. :)  If it were G a copy of VMS, they would be re-inventing the wheel there, also. It's ao: good idea, though, because, if nothing else, the people=20B involved might learn something.  If they produce something useful, that's a side benefit.  J > If VMS is so lousy, why did Bill Gates hire Cutler and use stolen VMS=20? > MICA code for NT if it was so lousy?  Why did Intel just grab   H Oh my... I have to side with Linus on this one.  MS either don't know or; don't care about good design, so this isn't a good example.n  D You might have tried "what is the longest recorded uptime for a UnixE system; and for a Linux system?"  This might drive an important pointAE home, or it might piss them off.  The point is that, no matter how=20 F much you like or hate the user-interface, VMS is well designed, and=20H stable.  In my opinion it excels in this area much more than Unix, which% is itself light-years beyond windows.   C You can argue about user interfaces -- which seems to be Linus's=20eC problem with VMS -- forever, and you won't get anywhere, because=203= it's really all in the opinion of the people who are arguing.o   > the Alpha 9 > engineers and secrets so they can build a decent 64 bitr > platform?  Why=20e  H Now, I know that you meant this in the future tense, as in "later itanicF chips might be decent because of these engineers," and Linus obviouslyH took it to mean that "itanic is a decent 64-bit platform." I don't thinkD this is a good argument either, even if it were taken the way it wasD meant, because this is going to be a serious uphill struggle for theE Alpha engineers.  I fault intel's original design if they fail, but IuG still don't know whether itanic can be made to be acceptable. (Which is  a step below decent, still...)  D > was it that the only environment left standing from 9/11 was a VMSA > cluster?  Is defcon a bunch of idiots when they claim VMS to=20   C Um -- because it is a cluster?  This brings us back to the argument E about whether Linux can have real clustering today.  I won't get into1> this, but I will say that MOSIX (from the hebrew university of# jerusalem, I think) is interesting.b   > be "Cool and1 > unhackable"?  Why is Alpha/VMS so lousy to you?e  D Well, they possibly are.  Even if we agree with their conclusion,=20C you can be a lot of the people at that conference aren't too smart.n/ Again, this may not be a good line of argument.    Now to Linus's comments:  > > I leart VMS before I learnt UNIX, but I've happily forgotten
 > most of it.V  ? I know where he's coming from, having been introduced to VMS=20n= from a Unix background, and basically disliking it until I=20 F figured out enough of it myself (because nobody can teach you about it if they don't know...)  G > I've got the big book on VMS internals on the alpha, and I've read=20o > through much of it.-  D That's a good start, but one has to put things in the perspective of practical use.  E > So call me VMS-illiterate, but I know enough to be dangerous. In=20u2 > particular, I know enough to dislike the system.  E I would venture to say that he simply doesn't know enough to like the G system.  VMS is very different from a lot of things, and that makes thel. learning curve steep.  Many won't accept that.  I > You left out "..  the worlds worst interfaces, the most braindamaged=20oH > filesystems, and tied to the worlds most expensive dead-end hardware."  F Obviously this was a low shot.  Linus must not dislike Alpha too much,D since he used to develop Linux on them.  I would venture to say thatG he's probably as upset with compaq for discontinuing them as many of use8 are, and this could be the thrust of the second comment.  I As for "interfaces," that's awfully vague, isn't?  Should we assume he=20 D means user interface?  Again, that's an opinion, and he can have it.  G Filesystems?  Well, it has ODS/FILES-11.  I regard FILES-11/ODS as a=20aG wonderfully elegant and simple design.  I have studied the ODS1 spec ineB detail (with an eye towards implementing a piece of software to=20G read and write it), and I think it shows a great amount of forethought.t  H It certainly has its problems, but it could be extended pretty easily toI correct them.  That's something I can't say for most Unix filesystems.=20  ;)  < > abotu the internals). But the whole system is designed for > databases andl9 > large embedded usage, and it's positively user-hostile.o  B Some of the most complex tasks one could hope to accomplish with aD computer.  If you can do that, obviously you can do "simple" things.  E Again, he picks on the user interface -- this is getting kind of old. 4 If that's the only problem, there is a port of bash.  G > The intel 64-bit people came largely from HP, and nobody sane ever=20./ > called the Itanic a "decent 64-bit platform".r  E I would add that the PA-RISC is not nearly as bad as itanic.  I don'ts know what happened ;)   0 > Because even terrorists won't touch the thing?  F Obviously he's being stupid here.  I'm sure it was a joke, but it's in poor taste. ;)   Chrisr  ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developert Amdocs - Champaign, IL  @ "Confutatis maledictus, flammis acribus addictus, voca me cum=20= benedictis.  Oro supplex et acclinis, cor contritunt quasi=20n' cinis, gere curarn mei finis." -Requiems =20w   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:35:31 GMT71 From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie)c5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... 8 Message-ID: <7%9O8.8319$9b.534561@typhoon.austin.rr.com>  2 Richard Banks (rbanks_@_arel_com_au.nospam) wrote: :yC : VMS ONLY runs on Alphas - you have to have an Alpha to use VMS.  - :  VMS still runs on VAXes.  H --Jerry Leslie   leslie@clio.rice.edu  (my opinions are strictly my own)9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for emailc   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:45:36 +0200 ' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>t5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... ' Message-ID: <3D093CB0.636C84E@spam.not>i   Stuart Fuller wrote: >  > Brass Christof wrote:a > >s > >>N > >> I learnt VMS before I learnt UNIX, but I've happily forgotten most of it. > >,> > > I really doubt that he completely understood the concepts. > >wG > >> I've got the big book on VMS internals on the alpha, and I've read  > >> through much of it. > >.< > > I doubt that he really understood the important details. > ( > And your evidence for the above is...?  ; His qualifications and judgements that are way off reality.s  I > >> You left out "..  the worlds worst interfaces, the most braindamagedVK > >> filesystems, and tied to the worlds most expensive dead-end hardware."d > > J > > Blaming the filesystems (I don't understand the plural) isn't the mostJ > > enlightened comment about VMS I guess. I don't see the point. UNIX hasK > > no versions, no appropriate set of timestamps associated with each filesH > > (let alone that's not easy to access this information) and no higherH > > level facility like RMS which comes with commands like CONVERT or is- > > integrated with other commands like TYPE.h > L > Plural?  Maybe you don't understand the details, either.  ODS-1, ODS-2 and > ODS-5 for starters.n   At that time??  J > > I also never heard about "positively user-hostile". VMS is closed fromI > > the security point of view. Which makes it harder to break in even ifaL > > the system isn't administered properly because the default configurationK > > is biased to security and not to ease of accessibility of all services.iE > > I wonder whether VMS or UNIX would be regarded as user-hostile if H > > people were trained equally well on each system. There are in fact a5 > > lot of comments about the user-hostility of UNIX.c > I > Most of the "user-hostile" comments about Unix come from Windows users.v  I I was referring to the time when UNIX was introduced. The complaints are iI still the same: cryptic command names, unlogical command names, problems i with the shell syntax.     -- '? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, s@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencem   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:57:00 +0200h' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>y5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...r( Message-ID: <3D093F5C.348D9316@spam.not>   Richard Banks wrote: > , > Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> wrote in" > news:3D0861A1.2C025ADB@spam.not: >  > >rF > > I also don't understand why pricing and EOL hardware qualifies forG > > technical disadvantages of an OS. If that were the case Linux would < > > suffer from the same criticism as it runs on Alphas too. > >o > H > VMS ONLY runs on Alphas - you have to have an Alpha to use VMS.  LinuxG > runs on Alphas, Vaxen, i386, Itanium, PPC, Sparc, iPaqs and plenty ofdI > other platforms.  You are not restricted to a single hardware platform.c > G > Why do you think so many people have thought about and tried to starte* > projects to port VMS to other platforms?   Sorry this was a trap ;-)   E As long as the chances are good that VMS will run in IA64 I wouldn't a state VMS as bound to EOL HW.l  F Anyway this isn't a technical argument against VMS. And I contributed D several postings stating with reasons given that VMS ports to other @ HW architectures would be best long before the Alpha was killed!  ? And I also think that killing Alpha wasn't a good idea either. e? Given the fact that most SW will be completely re-compiled and r= probably re-written in major parts to take full advantage of o9 the IA64 I don't see why it had'n been better drop IA64.    A I would have been probably much cheaper to develop a decent IA32 eA emulator based on FX!32 if compatibility were such a great issue.p    F > > I don't understand how an OS can be designed specifically for DBs. > E > Ever heard of an AS/400.  Their OS is purely database driven - filea > system and all.i  D I know but this is the other way round. Even the OS/400 can be used @ for a lot of different apps although it has severe restrictions  related to the UI.  B > > I also don't understand what he means with "embedded usage". IB > > normally understand "embedded systems" as quite different from > > workstations and servers.e > H > iPaq's, Jornadas, etc are all embedded systems.  Linux is also used in4 > some television set top boxes if I remember right.  9 But he stated that *VMS* is mainly for "embedded usage". x< Especially with your post it seems that he has a problem in . understanding for what VMS is used in reality.   -- d? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, c@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencet   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:22:11 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...nB Message-ID: <7zbO8.226935$Kp.20395686@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:cf15391e.0206131212.4095fa2c@posting.google.com...i5 > bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in messageo8 news:<d7791aa1.0206121853.b640909@posting.google.com>...E > > I posted recently in comp.os.linux.advocacy and got this responsed4 > > from what appears to be no one other than Linus. >s> > All I can say is I'm embarrassed on behalf of the entire VMS > community.  F What took you so long?  Bob's an embarrassment every time he opens his mouth, here or elsewhere.-   >s& > Linus Torvalds is certainly no moron  K I agree.  But he *is* a Unix bigot and clearly blind to significant aspectstF of OS design and utility.  Not that we're completely unacquainted with# bigotry in our neck of the woods...t   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:35:14 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...e( Message-ID: <3D094852.8A5ACB98@mist.com>   Bill Todd wrote: > @ > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message9 > news:cf15391e.0206131212.4095fa2c@posting.google.com...l7 > > bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in messagea: > news:<d7791aa1.0206121853.b640909@posting.google.com>...G > > > I posted recently in comp.os.linux.advocacy and got this response-6 > > > from what appears to be no one other than Linus. > >-@ > > All I can say is I'm embarrassed on behalf of the entire VMS > > community. > H > What took you so long?  Bob's an embarrassment every time he opens his > mouth, here or elsewhere.a >  > >6( > > Linus Torvalds is certainly no moron > M > I agree.  But he *is* a Unix bigot and clearly blind to significant aspectsnH > of OS design and utility.  Not that we're completely unacquainted with% > bigotry in our neck of the woods...o >   9 Linus is still a youngster in my eyes.  I saw his post in : cola, and some questioned whether it was the real linus or: not.  If it was linus, then he's still wet behind the ears" in regards to SCSI and IDE drives.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:37:28 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... ( Message-ID: <3D0948D8.D2EBAB62@mist.com>   Michiel Erens wrote: >  > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > >rE > > I posted recently in comp.os.linux.advocacy and got this responsemB > > from what appears to be no one other than Linus.  I don't knowD > > if this was really him, maybe Larry can verify that, but here is > > what he said so far ...d > F > I'm almost sure it was him. If you search in Google on author "LinusE > Torvalds" and keyword "VMS" you will find more unflattering quotes.- > Here are some :- > H > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > G > "shared libs should be totally transparent to the programmer (and areDI > under linux and most even remotely nice systems: I obviously don't find  > VAX/VMS even remotely nice)."i > J > "It may have started out as a good design (but quite frankly I doubt it:: > anybody who bases his design on VMS can't be all good)." > D > "POSIX still allows for a lot of reasonable programs to be writtenG > portably, with the hope that they would work on any number of systems.4 > (including VMS/POSIX and other horrors from hell)" > G > " By early -91 I had bought a PC, and linux v0.01 was ready in AugustoG > -91. That wouldn't have been possible with some other systems I couldt > mention (VMS..  arghh)." > F > "The reason unix has been so successful is that it's actually a veryJ > clean and simple operating system.  I would seriously doubt anybody willG > implement VMS in a year (or 5, and even after that I wouldn't want toi > actually use it :-)" > F > "The greatness of UNIX comes from "everything is a stream of bytes".I > That's something that almost nobody got right before UNIX. Remember VMS I > structured files? Did anybody ever realize what an absolutely _idiotic_v: > crock the NT "CopyFile()" thing is for the same reason?" > I > "The virtual consoles also have some new screen-handling commands: they G > confirm even better to vt200 control codes than 0.11. Special graphic-E > characters etc: you can well use them as terminals to VMS (althoughe( > that's a shameful waste of resources)" > H > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >  > I don't think he likes VMS.n >   ; Of course he doesn't.  Do a search on Egg Troll in cola andh; you'll find one post that mentions linux as evil.  It's theb, best laugh and troll I've ever read in ages.   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 02:37:08 GMT1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)t5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...e: Message-ID: <aebksk$etk$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  Q In message <3D093CB0.636C84E@spam.not>, Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> writes:  >Stuart Fuller wrote:eJ >> Most of the "user-hostile" comments about Unix come from Windows users. >aI >I was referring to the time when UNIX was introduced. The complaints aretI >still the same: cryptic command names, unlogical command names, problems  >with the shell syntax.'  H The the material for the classic "UNIX-HATERS Handbook" was drawn from aI mailing list started in the late 1980's (i.e. pre-Windows) by disgruntlede LISP programmers.     < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929- Ohio State University        |      Internet:nL 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:46:26 -0400g' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> = Subject: New J2EE / JMS Software for OpenVMS from SpiritSoft.hT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF40266077F@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  
 Hello All,  A Some good news for Customers looking at developing new J2EE / JMSd9 messaging based applications based on industry standards.s  8 http://www.spiritsoft.com/news/pressreleases.asp?id=3D24  : [and this is definitely new stuff .. Full release follows]   :-)h   Regardso  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Services  Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com   ++++++++  ) SpiritSoft Achieves OpenVMS CertificationfE SpiritWave enables OpenVMS customers to develop Java-based enterprise  messaging systemst   Boston, June 12, 2002s  A SpiritSoft today announced the certification of its JMS messagingnF integration product, SpiritWave Message Server, on the Hewlett-PackardC OpenVMS platform. SpiritWave provides OpenVMS customers with a J2EElH messaging architecture, allowing Java-based messaging applications to be built on OpenVMS.=20  < SpiritWave Message Server provides an advanced multi-clusterG architecture to deliver against demanding enterprise applications where ? there is no room for error. Additionally, SpiritWave provides atF standards-based solution to which customers can migrate their existing; applications from proprietary and legacy messaging systems.w  H Certified on Java 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition (J2EE ), Version 1.3.1,H SpiritWave fully supports the latest Java platform specification and XMLA processing for integrating legacy applications, databases and WebhE services over the Internet. SpiritWave enables easier integration anda< development of distributed systems to allow dynamic businessG interactions across diverse applications and devices. The platform also ? provides a set of peripheral functionality not offered by othern$ implementations of the JMS standard.  G Mark Gorham, Vice President of the HP OpenVMS Software Group, said, "HP G is pleased to be able to offer SpiritSoft's J2EE messaging environment, H SpiritWave, to our OpenVMS operating system customers. SpiritSoft bringsB the most modern messaging architecture to OpenVMS, building on theB qualities of reliability, fault tolerance and scalability that our platform is known for."   @ SpiritWave certification on OpenVMS also means that HP's OpenVMSE customers can leverage SpiritSoft's full suite of messaging products,iH including SpiritCache, the only commercially available implementation ofE the JCache standard. SpiritCache is a networked, hierarchical cachingtD mechanism used for both dynamic and static data caching. SpiritCacheH directly addresses the issues associated with distributed systems. These= include latency, bandwidth usage and performance bottlenecks.vH Enterprises that have implemented SpiritCache have avoided network build> out by drastically reducing network traffic through efficiencyH improvements. These SpiritSoft clients have saved millions of dollars inB associated hardware and software purchases and drastically reduced ongoing operational costs.  H Kevin Gibbs, CEO of SpiritSoft said, "SpiritWave's certification on HP's@ OpenVMS operating system means that we can offer OpenVMS users aB solution with an immediate return on investment. We provide a J2EEC standards-based architecture for customers who want to migrate fromsH alternative infrastructures. With SpiritWave, the OpenVMS community willG experience easier integration, quicker time-to-market and extensibility' for future requirements."=20   About SpiritSoft  < SpiritSoft develops open-standard enterprise messaging-basedG technologies and tools that enable dynamic business interactions acrossoE diverse applications and devices. The company's SpiritArchitecture istC the only complete integration platform that meets the challenges ofiH building, deploying and managing distributed systems. SpiritSoft's open,G standards-based approach leverages Java Messaging Service (JMS) and XMLl@ technologies to enable users to seamlessly integrate with legacy7 technologies and any proprietary middleware, deliveringPE platform-independent multi-plug messaging, multi-channel delivery and H dynamic event management. SpiritSoft's technology ensures that the right> information is delivered to the right place at the right time.  H SpiritSoft is privately held and based in Boston, Mass., with offices inG New York and its European HQ in London, UK. Founded in 1997, SpiritSofteC is funded in part by Reuters Venture Capital and Catalyst Fund. KeyrH customers include E*Trade Financial, LogicWorx, Market Data Corporation,G MatrixOne, Persistence, Prebon Yamane, Reuters, Sungard, Tullet & Tokyo( and Vantra.=20  7 More information is available at www.spiritsoft.com.=20sB Media / Analyst Contacts for SpiritSoft <analyst_contacts.html>=20   +++++++_   Regards.  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantn Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Services  Voice: 613-592-4660e Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:51:01 -0500 (CDT)o From: sms@antinode.org Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP) Message-ID: <02061316510100@antinode.org>h  ' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>  > [...]i@ > That's very much the same kind of ad as one might (should) runI > advertising the safety of VMS clusters at widely separated datacenters.> > [...]   H    It's comforting to know that at least one other person out there also$ needs to take some business courses.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  C    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-9818  (voice, home)hC    382 South Warwick Street        (+1) 763-781-0308  (voice, work)cG    Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547      (+1) 763-781-0309  (facsimile, work)o9    sms@antinode.org                sms@provis.com  (work)e   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 03:14:54 GMTm# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: Open Letter to HPJ Message-ID: <OcdO8.322470$t8_.192594@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  4 "David Mathog" <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message% news:3D08BD5B.2FE9D5E6@caltech.edu...p > Hoff Hoffman wrote:f >sL > >   Please think of what products you see advertised on (US) TV.  You willJ > >   see (often long-running) brand-recognition ads, and you will see adsJ > >   for mass-commodity consumer products.  These ads are all targeted atL > >   the vast numbers of potential consumers for the particular product(s).L > >   The comumers for these products also happen to be the audience for TV;D > >   TV is a good means of reaching the audience for these consumer	 products.v >iJ > I've seen ads from GE which cover their entire product line (jet enginesI > to power generating stations to MRI machines.)  Few of the products arevL > consumer level and I'm not sure that brand recognition is really the pointI > either.  It's more like  "we have lots of solutions - look here first". 4 > Or maybe, "buy our stock, we're a strong company." > L > More to the point, your competitor IBM has been running a lot of ads whichJ > are quite specific, for instance, for their Linux servers.  Paraphrased:G > freaked manager in empty computer room, "where did all the servers?".s CoolI > and relaxed geeky sysop type nonchalantly replies "we replaced them alle with > that linux box from IBM".i >)@ > That's very much the same kind of ad as one might (should) runI > advertising the safety of VMS clusters at widely separated datacenters.tD > I'm pretty well convinced that few IT personnel under 30 know thatJ > VMS can run a cluster with nodes 50 miles apart, lose one site, and keepI > going with no down time whatsoever.  They know about failovers, and hotaK > standby, but they really don't know clusters since none of them have ever  > seen one.0  J Precisely correct, and necessary - both from a business security viewpoint" and from an advertising viewpoint.  J Run an ad on TV like that around several different types of shows to catchD the target audience - senior IT managers, CIO/CTO/COO/CFO/CEO types.    9 Or alternatively...capitalize on current events a bit....x  ; Scene 1:           A room full of paper shredders operating =                         full-blast, shredding what looks likeg.                         accounting documents..  = Voiceover:       "The best kept secret in finance today isn'tt9                          what's being shredded here....."   9 Cut to Scene2:  Rooms full of Alphaservers, then to stock E                          traders doing their thing on the floor of anh"                          exchange.  8 Voiceover:        "It's the stock exchanges of the world@                           running on OpenVMS. Quietly. Reliably.=                           24 x 7. Isn't it time your businessnC                           profited from the most reliable operatinge=                           system on the planet? OpenVMS. Onlye#                           from HP."t  . Image and product advertising all in one shot.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:16:51 -0400s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>i) Subject: RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write)S, Message-ID: <3D09601A.4F2C575A@videotron.ca>  K Am writing this subsystem that accesses RMS (and other types of files lateraK on) files transparently (by field etc). It hides stuff such as $OPEN, FAB ,eD NAM, RAB etc from the calling program (which will be script driven).  N So upon first attempt to access a dataset (RMS file), the interface will fetchG that dataset's definition and file layout, open the file, setup variousm1 structures, and then execute the actual request. n    M So, at the first access to the dataset when it is opened, I have no idea whatoL subsequent acesses will be done on that dataset/file. Is it possible to openK it READ-only and then change it to READ/WRITE later on if I find out that In also need to write to it ?  L If I $OPEN a file read only, and then need to switch it to read-write, it itK possible to do that without invalidating existing locks and the contexts of K the FAB and RABs ? Or is the only way to do do a $CLOSE and $OPEN and reset   the current record context etc ?  M Would it be simpler to simply open read/write all files, unless $CHECK_ACCESS F says that read/write is not possible and then only open it READ-only ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 04:18:52 GMTn From: danco@pebble.org- Subject: Re: RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write)a- Message-ID: <slrnagisho.20b.danco@pebble.org>o  < In article <3D09601A.4F2C575A@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei wrote:  O > So, at the first access to the dataset when it is opened, I have no idea whatlN > subsequent acesses will be done on that dataset/file. Is it possible to openM > it READ-only and then change it to READ/WRITE later on if I find out that Ih > also need to write to it ?  : How about defering the actual open until the first access? Can you get away with that?w  > Or can you get away with multiple opens, one for read accessesA and one for write accesses (and carefully coordinate your locking 0 between the two so you don't deadlock yourself)?   - Dana   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:56:44 GMT-1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>1+ Subject: Re: rooted devices and /TRANS=CONC ' Message-ID: <3D095F1D.8791DAEC@fsi.net>b   Phillip Helbig wrote:  > D > > It is important to use a trailing colon. Only then does it work: >  > OK, but WHY?  B Well, you might be able to illustrate that for yourself. Try this:  < $ sy0 = f$getdvi( "sys$sysdevice", "alldevnam" ) - "_" - ":" $ dflt = f$environ( "default" )1' $ write sys$output f$parse( sy0, dflt )  $ define sy0 &sy0n) $ write sys$output f$parse( "sy0", dflt )s $ sy0 = sy0 + ":" ' $ write sys$output f$parse( sy0, dflt )  $ define sy0 &sy0a) $ write sys$output f$parse( "sy0", dflt )e
 $ deas sy0   -- . David J. Dachterao dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:43:52 GMTy0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)4 Subject: Re: Same Code for VMS and Windows Required?8 Message-ID: <3d090490.419601284@proxy.news.easynews.com>  > Perl runs on both platforms, if you want a scripting language.  9 If you want a regular programming language, C and C++ arei available on both platforms.  A On 13 Jun 2002 00:03:20 -0700, sello@operamail.com (sello) wrote:-  G >Hi - Help required, I need to write code that will run on windows 2000l >and on vms. >j >More details...B >I have several database systems on Mimer & and MS SQL Server 2000E >running on vms and windows respectively. The databases are identical E >(more or less) and I would like to automate the upgrading process ofr> >all the databases by using common code. The code performs the >following tasks:y  >1 Open connection to a database/ >2 Send SQL commands read in from a text file/s 4 >3 A few ifs and loops and some string manipulation. >tE >However there is to be a lot of code and I don't want to write it innF >different languages for different platforms so if there is a languageD >that will run on both that would be great. Scripting type languages >would be preffered. >r >Thanks in advance >Sello  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 16:21:09 -0500sC From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> 4 Subject: Re: Same Code for VMS and Windows Required?H Message-ID: <craig.berry-C9B859.16210913062002@news.directvinternet.com>  8 In article <3d090490.419601284@proxy.news.easynews.com>,2  prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski) wrote:  @ > Perl runs on both platforms, if you want a scripting language.  ? Yes, though it interfaces with Mimer less well than with other s databases (see below).  C > On 13 Jun 2002 00:03:20 -0700, sello@operamail.com (sello) wrote:e > I > >Hi - Help required, I need to write code that will run on windows 2000l > >and on vms. > >b > >More details...D > >I have several database systems on Mimer & and MS SQL Server 2000G > >running on vms and windows respectively. The databases are identicalaG > >(more or less) and I would like to automate the upgrading process ofe+ > >all the databases by using common code.    . You should really go to the Mimer web site at A http://developer.mimser.se and see the APIs they support and the  G development tools their customers use.  It looks like you can use Perl  G via the DBD::ODBC interface since unfortunately there is no DBD::Mimer  F extension as there is for Rdb, Oracle, Sybase, and (I think) Ingres.  F On the VMS side you'd also have to find an odbc driver.  The one that D comes with the Attunity package might work or the freeware unixODBC ) client has (or at least had) VMS support.D   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 18:02:51 -0600+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)tD Subject: Re: Secure HTTP client app buildable under OpenVMS/OpenSSL?3 Message-ID: <KV6zy9jYGgE2@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  D Look around for cURL.  I did a "port" of it about a year ago, which E allows my Alpha running V7.3 to send posts to https: urls and receive F the results from a C program.  Someone recently said that they have a I more current version working, so you might want to check the comp.os.vms a archive on Google for cURL.s  ` In article <Lr3O8.28$XV5.550058@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Rick Barry" <barry@star.zko.dec.com> writes:< > Regarding CSWS and OpenSSL, CSWS is currently shipped withM > the server linked against an OpenSSL object library, so there is no libraryoJ > for you to use in other applications nor will installing the OpenSSL kitG > provide CSWS with enhanced capabilities. We plan to link CSWS against J > the OpenSSL shareable image libray after it becomes part of the base OS. >  > Rick Barry+ > Compaq Secure Web Server Development Team.  > OpenVMS Systems Software Group > Hewlett Packard Company  > Nashua, NH > 5 > "Rich Jordan" <jordan@ccs4vms.com> wrote in message 9 > news:cc5619f2.0206130743.4f815d8e@posting.google.com...:@ >> We're looking at the feasibility of building an OpenVMS basedH >> application to act as a client to a server-side app using secure httpD >> protocol over the internet (as defined by the server application,C >> which is not owned by us).  Does the current OpenSSL on VMS (andEI >> hopefully the included OpenSSL coming with V7.3-1) have the capabilitypG >> of providing the 'secure connectivity' for this type of application?nE >> We've dabbled in using straight http for in house (all on one LAN)aC >> apps, although it seems rather clumsy, but never worked with SSLi
 >> before. >>C >> Related queries; if a system has CSWS installed with OpenSSL and F >> mod_ssl, is that a complete installation of OpenSSL that will allowG >> usage by processes and programs other than CSWS?  And can the actualtG >> 'current' OpenSSL package be installed on a system with the existingnF >> CSWS (in order to get the latest) without affecting CSWS ability to >> use mod_ssl/OpenSSL?p >> >> Rich Jordan >  >    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:22:25 +0000 (UTC)e( From: "Bill Sticker" <nospam@nospam.com>: Subject: Re: Sun is on the way out!  Only HP and IBM left!1 Message-ID: <aeb2eg$aqh$1@knossos.btinternet.com>a  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messager< news:ROLN8.195672$%y.18848494@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >u7 > "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagec9 > news:d7791aa1.0206120933.41610cfb@posting.google.com...e; > > I didn't say it, the Inquirer does ... guess we will'nto= > > have poor Andrew around here anymore making bogus claims!e. > > No wonder he is anxious to trash Alpha ... >cI > Learn to read, Bob.  The Inquirer also speculates that HP covertly usede thesJ > quoted article to spread FUD:  if you believe the one, you really should > believe the other.  L Well I believe it. Having worked with SUNs, my conclusion is that they don't really work.4 Technically they were never a competitor for Alphas.H The reason that they did well in the past is that they were a relatively new, flashy looking, expensive* product which all salesmen wanted to sell.J Ask IT managers; unless they paid an absolute fortune for a SUN server (in which case they ? darent tell the truth), they will tell you that they hate them.e   >lF > Responses to the *original* article (quoted by the Inquirer) ran, as usual,I > both pro and con in terms of its credibility.  If you wish to disparageSK > those who felt Sun *isn't* in trouble as having their heads firmly buriedl inL > the sand, then you should be *at least* as willing to admit the same about+ > those who believe VMS isn't in trouble...i >  > - bill >h >s >s   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 02:49:01 GMTs1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>T/ Subject: Re: tpc/ip file server for VMS systemsm' Message-ID: <3D095D50.3229FA77@fsi.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > ) > In article <3D07F908.380ED2E6@fsi.net>,d6 >  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > |> rf wrote: > |> >Q > |> > Is it possible/practical to setup LINUX/BSD to provide file/print servicesdN > |> > for VMS/AXP (OVMS 6.2) system(s) over IP?  If so some guidance would be > |> > appreciated.c > |> > |> Possible? Sure. > 7 > One can go beyond possible.  It is emminently doable.o   Agreed.    > |>I > |> Practical? Questionable - it depends why you think you need/want it.fK > |> VMS/Linux synergy could be a good thing if it serves a useful purpose.r > C > Can't think of anything that makes it "impractical".  I assume ifrE > the question needed to be asked there is probably a legitimate needu > for the capabilities.t  H The original post was sufficiently terse as to leave some question as to; whether alternatives are available or beyond consideration.l  A > Contrary to what many here would have you believe, VMS and UNIXcA > integrate very well together.  A lot easier than either of themg > and Windows.  C Agreed. I think we should stress that Linux is included when we saya "UNIX" in that context.n   -- c David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systemsb http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/P   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:32:41 -0600y! From: "rf" <rlfitch@peakpeak.com>s/ Subject: RE: tpc/ip file server for VMS systemss? Message-ID: <DJEIILNNMOFLAFBPGIEHOEDADBAA.rlfitch@peakpeak.com>   L The primary goal is to provide a substantial increase in online file storageJ while keeping  costs (hdwr and license) as low as possible.  DEC equipmentK is pricy! whereas an Intel/AMD system running BSD is not.  The tradeoff mayaK be in lowered performance via ethernet vs. direct SCSI access.  A secondarymJ goal is an alternative file backup system.  'Print services' is just icing but could improve things.f  J Please don't let this digress (as so often happens) to a discussion of oneH OS being better than another.  I have been a VMS fan (read bigot) for 16D years but I'm willing keep my options open and do what is necessary.  & As noted earlier, here are some specs:H IP package info: "DEC TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS AXP Version V4.0 - ECO2 Level 5 on a DEC 3000 - M700 running OpenVMS V6.2"  G What is needed is some help in understanding how to approach this. AlanaL Winston has suggested NFS (thanks) and I think that FTP might be a fall-back option.h   thanks much, Ransom Fitch   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Jun 2002 20:32 CDT.' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)t Subject: Re: unix history - Message-ID: <13JUN200220320674@gerg.tamu.edu>.  / koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org writes...-d }In article <3D089C8E.B02155A6@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes: }> u9 }> Hmmm.... Now tell us about TOPS-10. I seem to remember @ }> it knew a thing or two about dates and time, but it still had: }> an epoch change. And then there's OS/8 -- it must be on@ }> its fifth or sixth "epoch" by now (at eight years per epoch).. }> I suspect RT-11 has run out of few as well. } E }   Yeah, but if UNIX started with time in 1969, wouldn't it be epochn> }   196x?  Even epoch 1960 wouldn't have hit the sign bit yet.  F You are asuming that the epoch that it started with is the one that it- still has now. This is probably not the case.h   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:10:54 -0400a' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> Y Subject: RE: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer BanT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D9188@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   John,u  * Excellent pointers .. Definate "keepers"..   :-)i  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantd Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Servicesr Voice: 613-592-4660i Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----< From: John Eisenschmidt [mailto:jweisen@eisenschmidt.org]=20 Sent: June 13, 2002 8:14 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com H Subject: Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading))g    5 There is a great diagram of the history of Unix here:s  % http://perso.wanadoo.fr/levenez/unix/u  4 It claims that first edition appeared on 1971-11-03.  F Dennis Richie still works for Bell Labs, and his homepage is a font of% interesting knowledge on the subject:y  $ http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/  C Including some notes on the evolution of C, and the same with Unix.hF Richie claims the earliest verson of Unix from around 1969-1970 ran on the PDP-7 and the PDP-9.=20p  G As for the comment about epoch, Richie talks about this on a page aboute: finding two early C compilers on mag tape a few years ago:  4 http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/primevalC.html  G " Several years ago, Paul Vixie and Keith Bostic found a DECtape drive,lC attached it to a VAX, and offered to read old DECtapes. Even at the F time, this was an antiquarian pursuit, and it presented an opportunityF to mine beneath the raised floor of the computer room and unearth some2 of the DECtapes we'd stored since the early 1970s.   ..  H Two tapes are present here; the first is labeled "last1120c", the secondD "prestruct-c". I know from distant memory what these names mean: the? first is a saved copy of the compiler preserved just as we wereu? abandoning the PDP-11/20, which did not have multiply or divideoB instructions, but instead a separate, optional unit that did these@ operations (and also shifts) by storing the operands into memoryA locations. (A story about using this hardware is told elsewhere.)t  F "prestruct-c" is a copy of the compiler just before I started changing it to use structures itself.  H It's a bit hard to get really accurate dates for these compilers, exceptG that they are certainly 1972-73. There are date bits on the tape image, F but they suffer from a possible off-by-a-year error because we changedE epochs more than once during this era, and also because the files may G have been copied or fiddled after they were the source for the compiler. in contemporaneous use. "e  / There is also a scanned 1981 add for AT&T Unix:-  1 http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/unixad.htmlm  . Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Phillip Helbig+ (HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com) Wrote:-H > > Perhaps it's a bit less - Anyone know when the first UNIX systems=20D > > (that now form the basics of all UNIX's today) became available? > >=20C > > My understanding is that it was late 60's timeframe when the=20lG > > University and Bell types first started developing UNIX on their=20c > > PDPx systems.f >=20G > I'm pretty sure that it was after 1-JAN-1970, since unix uses this as  > its 17-NOV-1858.  :-) =20u >=20G > By the way, there is still a bug in SHOW STATUS where a relative timet. > equal to 0 is formatted as an absolute time: >=20 > $ spa sh statusl* > %DCL-S-SPAWNED, process XXXXXX_1 spawned< > %DCL-S-ATTACHED, terminal now attached to process XXXXXX_1C >   Status on  13-JUN-2002 13:17:53.03     Elapsed CPU :17-NOV-1858a 00:00:00.00l >=20F > Thus, one can use this as a kludge to remember the VMS zero-point=20H > time! (It also serves as a check if the machine is reasonably fast.=20 > :-)  )   --=20d/ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>e6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen  PGP Public Key  |: http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.ascD  PGP Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2  E FOO MANE PADME HUM: "Our first obligation is to keep the FOO counters:	 turning."O   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:37:59 +0100 (MET)a9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> E Subject: updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMSd; Message-ID: <01KIW7KSL2R896WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>i  H Having successfully implemented volume shadowing on my hobbyist system, E I am looking forward to upgrading the OS.  The documentation on this uF seems a little dated---these days, one normally boots from CD, mounts A the disk to be upgraded etc.  The docs talk about "boot from and c6 perform the upgrade on the single, non-shadowed disk".  & What is wrong with the following plan?  #    o  shut down the system normally       o  boot from CD  H    o  MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW the target disk to erase the shadowing-specific )       information in the SCB (necessary?)e  G    o  upgrade this disk normally from the CD as for a non-shadowed diskl  "    o  no need for SET VOLUME/LABEL  E    o  boot from the new disk (will come up as a single-member shadow ?
       set)  F    o  use MOUNT/SHADOW to re-add the other member(s) to the shadow set  G Two questions:  Is there anything wrong with this plan?  Does one need uC to MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW the other members (which will be targets of a  5 shadow copy) before adding them to the upgraded disk?    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:28:43 GMTr8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)I Subject: Re: updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMSl2 Message-ID: <%f7O8.36$WZ5.739495@news.cpqcorp.net>  < In article <01KIW7KSL2R896WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, ; Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:l  ' >What is wrong with the following plan?a >W$ >   o  shut down the system normally >1 >   o  boot from CDs >wI >   o  MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW the target disk to erase the shadowing-specific  * >      information in the SCB (necessary?) >nH >   o  upgrade this disk normally from the CD as for a non-shadowed disk >l# >   o  no need for SET VOLUME/LABELH > F >   o  boot from the new disk (will come up as a single-member shadow  >      set)  >rG >   o  use MOUNT/SHADOW to re-add the other member(s) to the shadow sete   ********************F FIRST AND FORMOST -- this plan omits making a backup of the pre-update* system disk.  DO NOT OMIT THAT STEP!!!!!!! ********************  D The "boot from the new disk" step may attempt to merge the old filesG from "the other members" -- which will un-do the upgrade.  i.e., it maye* NOT come up as a single-member shadow set.  K If you correctly follow the insructions in the manual, the upgrade is very tI unlikely to have any problems with the shadowed system disk.  The cost iniL added time is very low in comparison to the amount of time it will take you , if you have to restore and re-do everything.   -- SK     Charlie Hammond -- Compaq Computer Corporation -- Pompano Beach  FL USA-8                        Compaq is now part of the New HP!H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 18:08:23 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)mI Subject: Re: updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMSa= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206131708.420cdcd2@posting.google.com>s  | Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KIW7KSL2R896WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...I > Two questions:  Is there anything wrong with this plan?  Does one need  E > to MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW the other members (which will be targets of a e7 > shadow copy) before adding them to the upgraded disk?n  A The sequence you suggested looks correct to me.  Going to DCL ands? doing the $MOUNT/OVERRIDE=SHADOW modifies the SCB to remove thetD Shadowing information, but even if it didn't, it also increments theD generation number, so the other former members of the shadowset willE now be considered out-of-date by Shadowing, and not included when youoD boot the single disk afterward and VMS turns it into a single-memberF shadowset.  You do not have to use $MOUNT/OVERRIDE=SHADOW on the otherE members before adding them in with $MOUNT.  But if you happened to dor( that, it wouldn't hurt anything, either.  D Since you had a shadowed system disk before, your boot specification@ may list multiple disks, so you'd have to make sure the disk youD upgraded was the first one in the list, or else boot to it manually.  B I agree with Charlie's advice to do a backup.  But most likely you  were planning to do that anyway.: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 19:00:57 GMTm( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>M Subject: Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)r+ Message-ID: <3D08EC56.2E79D401@pacbell.net>O   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > X > In article <3D07ED6C.1991279A@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > L > >> There is no "start looking at" -- privilege levels were documented withN > >> VMS V4.4.  I see no reason why any redesign would be appropriate, and theN > >> committment by VMS to backward compatibility mandates existing privileges > >> stay as they are.S > > In their current state, privileges are like ACLs. They do not have "levels" andlT > > they do not relate to one another. I would like a more hierarchial organization. > ) > So you disagree with the documentation.oD > I have had good success relying on the documentation about levels.  P Please point me to the article to which you are referring. I promise to read it.   > J > >> Control of a disk, control of a queue, etc. can be delegated based on9 > >> general identifiers.  What else would you delegate ?iR > > As a enterprise administrator, I would like to allow Joe (a group admin) to beO > > able to setup new users, give, or deny, them certain privileges without theoS > > ability to effect Sam (a different group admin). Each has full control over allo5 > > users in his group, but cannot effect each other.s > E > There are add-on products to do that, but since it crosses securityiD > domains it is certainly not a proper part of the operating system.  P I very much disagree with that statement. IMO one of the key aspects of an OS is to define security domains. M In general I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about what an OS is andeP isn't. There is no absolute definition. The definition of what an OS is, is madeP by people like us (cov) - professionals in this business with LOTS of experience working with many OS's. O IMO at its most basic, an OS allocates all the resources of a given set of CPUs:O and memory modules for the purpose of providing access to a given set of users..H These "sets" have no intrinsic borders. Their borders are DEFINED by the architecture of the OS itself. 	4 An OS is NOT a window manager.. It does NOT define the look and feel of a GUI.9 It is NOT a CLI, although even pros often blur this line.e  F I could go on here, but this could become a very long response and ...G I have promises to keep. And miles to go before I sleep. - Robert Froste   --     Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)T
 San Franciscoo   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 17:32:57 -0600+ From: kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt)dM Subject: Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)s3 Message-ID: <teTLlGIZPo3z@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  V In article <3D07ED6C.1991279A@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> hY >> In article <3D078EE0.8CE3F2F3@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:h >> > Larry Kilgallen wrote:o >> >> \ >> >> In article <3D06978F.4B8B4A60@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: >> >> X >> >> > Not exactly what I had in mind. I agree ODS5 and COE bring some crucial parts ofO >> >> > Unix into VMS, but even some VMS features could do with a rethink. E.g.tV >> >> > privileges are not logical. They seemed to have evolved as needed, so there is >> >>eI >> >> "More logical" presumes they are orthogonal, which is not the case.'H >> >> Privilege _levels_ (categories) are worth thinking about, and theyL >> >> are the basis on which you should evaluate privileges.  But privilegesL >> >> on a level can be used to bootstrap into a different privilege.  ThinkQ >> >> of privilege levels as providing real control and the individual privileges8J >> >> within a level as providing protection against typographical errors. >> >J >> > That's what I meant. More logical meaning architected, and as you sayO >> > pivilege_levels are a good way to start looking at such a re-architecting.s >> eJ >> There is no "start looking at" -- privilege levels were documented withL >> VMS V4.4.  I see no reason why any redesign would be appropriate, and theL >> committment by VMS to backward compatibility mandates existing privileges >> stay as they are.Q > In their current state, privileges are like ACLs. They do not have "levels" andhR > they do not relate to one another. I would like a more hierarchial organization. >  > ... R >> > I not suggesting making them the SAME as Unix groups. They don't fit the billM >> > either. I mean a way for administrator to delegate certain functions anddU >> > privileges to group administrators. This is a big topic and would require a good T >> > deal of thought to properly implement, but its worth it especially where large,' >> > complex enterprises are concerned.u >> iH >> Control of a disk, control of a queue, etc. can be delegated based on7 >> general identifiers.  What else would you delegate ?AP > As a enterprise administrator, I would like to allow Joe (a group admin) to beM > able to setup new users, give, or deny, them certain privileges without theeQ > ability to effect Sam (a different group admin). Each has full control over allN3 > users in his group, but cannot effect each other.r  @ You can do that with 3rd party GUI UAF products.  One I used to @ work on/work with was XUAFMaestro.  It allowed you to set up theA ranges of users/priv/nodes/etc you could allow someone to see andnA work on.  Handy if, for instance, you wanted someone in the groupdA to have the ability to change passwords in their group but no onep elses.   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Jun 2002 17:25:45 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)oM Subject: Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)d3 Message-ID: <M12wsBBjF1fu@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3D08EC56.2E79D401@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> MY >> In article <3D07ED6C.1991279A@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:d >> > Larry Kilgallen wrote:i >> wM >> >> There is no "start looking at" -- privilege levels were documented withTO >> >> VMS V4.4.  I see no reason why any redesign would be appropriate, and the-O >> >> committment by VMS to backward compatibility mandates existing privilegesr >> >> stay as they are. T >> > In their current state, privileges are like ACLs. They do not have "levels" andU >> > they do not relate to one another. I would like a more hierarchial organization.< >> t* >> So you disagree with the documentation.E >> I have had good success relying on the documentation about levels.g > R > Please point me to the article to which you are referring. I promise to read it.  1 file:///VMSDOC073/v73/6346/6346pro_031.html#app_an  % (I say "level", they say "category").e  K >> >> Control of a disk, control of a queue, etc. can be delegated based onm: >> >> general identifiers.  What else would you delegate ?S >> > As a enterprise administrator, I would like to allow Joe (a group admin) to bedP >> > able to setup new users, give, or deny, them certain privileges without theT >> > ability to effect Sam (a different group admin). Each has full control over all6 >> > users in his group, but cannot effect each other. >>  F >> There are add-on products to do that, but since it crosses securityE >> domains it is certainly not a proper part of the operating system.r > R > I very much disagree with that statement. IMO one of the key aspects of an OS is > to define security domains.   @ When VMS got its C2 evaluations for V6.0 the security domain was@ defined quite firmly as the cluster.  There is no changing that, it is a term of the art.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 01:53:07 GMT4( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>M Subject: Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday) + Message-ID: <3D094CF3.6A9B730B@pacbell.net>r   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > X > In article <3D08EC56.2E79D401@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >>[ > >> In article <3D07ED6C.1991279A@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:  > >> > Larry Kilgallen wrote:/ > >>O > >> >> There is no "start looking at" -- privilege levels were documented withaQ > >> >> VMS V4.4.  I see no reason why any redesign would be appropriate, and the-Q > >> >> committment by VMS to backward compatibility mandates existing privileges  > >> >> stay as they are.rV > >> > In their current state, privileges are like ACLs. They do not have "levels" andW > >> > they do not relate to one another. I would like a more hierarchial organization.o > >>, > >> So you disagree with the documentation.G > >> I have had good success relying on the documentation about levels.y > >mT > > Please point me to the article to which you are referring. I promise to read it. > 3 > file:///VMSDOC073/v73/6346/6346pro_031.html#app_ar > ' > (I say "level", they say "category").   ! These terms are really different.m   > M > >> >> Control of a disk, control of a queue, etc. can be delegated based ons< > >> >> general identifiers.  What else would you delegate ?U > >> > As a enterprise administrator, I would like to allow Joe (a group admin) to bedR > >> > able to setup new users, give, or deny, them certain privileges without theV > >> > ability to effect Sam (a different group admin). Each has full control over all8 > >> > users in his group, but cannot effect each other. > >>H > >> There are add-on products to do that, but since it crosses securityG > >> domains it is certainly not a proper part of the operating system.a > >aT > > I very much disagree with that statement. IMO one of the key aspects of an OS is > > to define security domains.d > B > When VMS got its C2 evaluations for V6.0 the security domain wasB > defined quite firmly as the cluster.  There is no changing that, > it is a term of the art.K Fine. Using security domain as the cluster, we come back to the fact that IsK still can't delegate to group admins within my domain. And we can't do that)1 primarily because privileges don't have "levels".   " |--------------------------------|" | Cluster Admin                  |" |     |-------------|            |" |     | Group admin |            |" |     |-------------|            |" |                                |" |--------------------------------|P In this model the Group Admin cannot grant privileges to those in his group thatM were not granted to him. Some applications have this style of administration,iM but of course it only extends to the specific functions of that application.   -- u   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com)r
 San Franciscos   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:03:06 +0000 (UTC)o* From: bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau). Subject: Why does SMTP anti-spam feature fail?0 Message-ID: <aeatpq$jj6$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>  L Hello, I have a question about the anti-spam features of TCPIP V5.1.  I haveL a Personal Workstation 600au (umtof2.umd.edu) running OpenVMS AXP V7.1-2 andL TCPIP V5.1 ECO 1.  I just upgraded TCPIP, as V5.0A didn't have the anti-spam: features.  The configuration of the system did not change.  O I created and edited my configuration file (TCPIP$SMTP_COMMON:SMTP.CONFIG).  In  it is the line:t  ( Bad-Clients: umsms.umd.edu, 129.2.163.19  I The system named above is another system I administer, and the numeric IPML number is the address for it.  After editing the config file I shut down and@ restarted the SMTP service using the TCPIP$SMTP_SHUTDOWN.COM and1 TCPIP$SMTP_STARTUP.COM files.  No problems there.m  @ When I log onto umsms.umd.edu and send an email to my account onE umtof2.umd.edu, however, it goes through, rather than being rejected.n  5 Does anyone have a suggestion as to why this happens?l  " As another test, I added the line:  ! Reject-Mail-From: *@umsms.umd.edu   N and this caused my email to be rejected, so the anti-spam measures are working1 to some extent, just not the Bad-Clients keyword.    Ideas?   Lawrence Bleau University of Maryland" Physics Dept., Space Physics Group 301-405-6223 bleau@umtof.umd.edu    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:56:35 GMTyL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")2 Subject: Re: Why does SMTP anti-spam feature fail?8 Message-ID: <00A0F66A.9815F7F3@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  ] In article <aeatpq$jj6$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau) writes:hM >Hello, I have a question about the anti-spam features of TCPIP V5.1.  I havelM >a Personal Workstation 600au (umtof2.umd.edu) running OpenVMS AXP V7.1-2 and-M >TCPIP V5.1 ECO 1.  I just upgraded TCPIP, as V5.0A didn't have the anti-spamm; >features.  The configuration of the system did not change.u >tP >I created and edited my configuration file (TCPIP$SMTP_COMMON:SMTP.CONFIG).  In >it is the line: >.) >Bad-Clients: umsms.umd.edu, 129.2.163.19e >eJ >The system named above is another system I administer, and the numeric IPM >number is the address for it.  After editing the config file I shut down andsA >restarted the SMTP service using the TCPIP$SMTP_SHUTDOWN.COM andW2 >TCPIP$SMTP_STARTUP.COM files.  No problems there. > A >When I log onto umsms.umd.edu and send an email to my account onkF >umtof2.umd.edu, however, it goes through, rather than being rejected. >T6 >Does anyone have a suggestion as to why this happens? >e# >As another test, I added the line:  >t" >Reject-Mail-From: *@umsms.umd.edu >dO >and this caused my email to be rejected, so the anti-spam measures are workingS2 >to some extent, just not the Bad-Clients keyword. >  >Ideas?s  N You have conflated two different kinds of anti-spam feature.  Reject-Mail-FromH does what it sounds like - refuse to accept mail from these hosts.  The L Good-Clients and Bad-Clients, on the other hand, has to do with whether yourN system will _relay_ mail from these clients to _other_ hosts.  Try originatingI a message on UMSMS.UMD.EDU for some outside address and see what happens.h  J (These only apply if you have relaying turned on at all.  If you _do_ haveM relaying turned on, I would proactively limit it to Good-Clients, rather thana: allowing relaying for everybody except known Bad-Clients.)   -- Alan          >  >Lawrence Bleaup >University of Maryland # >Physics Dept., Space Physics Group 
 >301-405-6223h >bleau@umtof.umd.edu  O ===============================================================================-0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056rM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-02103O ===============================================================================r   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 18:22:58 -0400m1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>h2 Subject: Re: Why does SMTP anti-spam feature fail?2 Message-ID: <3D091B42.1D008BB6@firstdbasource.com>  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote: > _ > In article <aeatpq$jj6$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau) writes:RO > >Hello, I have a question about the anti-spam features of TCPIP V5.1.  I have O > >a Personal Workstation 600au (umtof2.umd.edu) running OpenVMS AXP V7.1-2 and O > >TCPIP V5.1 ECO 1.  I just upgraded TCPIP, as V5.0A didn't have the anti-spamw= > >features.  The configuration of the system did not change.a > >lR > >I created and edited my configuration file (TCPIP$SMTP_COMMON:SMTP.CONFIG).  In > >it is the line: > >i+ > >Bad-Clients: umsms.umd.edu, 129.2.163.19h > >tL > >The system named above is another system I administer, and the numeric IPO > >number is the address for it.  After editing the config file I shut down andhC > >restarted the SMTP service using the TCPIP$SMTP_SHUTDOWN.COM andt4 > >TCPIP$SMTP_STARTUP.COM files.  No problems there. > > C > >When I log onto umsms.umd.edu and send an email to my account on-H > >umtof2.umd.edu, however, it goes through, rather than being rejected. > >r8 > >Does anyone have a suggestion as to why this happens? > >a% > >As another test, I added the line:m > > $ > >Reject-Mail-From: *@umsms.umd.edu > >:Q > >and this caused my email to be rejected, so the anti-spam measures are working04 > >to some extent, just not the Bad-Clients keyword. > > 	 > >Ideas?e > P > You have conflated two different kinds of anti-spam feature.  Reject-Mail-FromI > does what it sounds like - refuse to accept mail from these hosts.  ThevN > Good-Clients and Bad-Clients, on the other hand, has to do with whether yourP > system will _relay_ mail from these clients to _other_ hosts.  Try originatingK > a message on UMSMS.UMD.EDU for some outside address and see what happens.r > L > (These only apply if you have relaying turned on at all.  If you _do_ haveO > relaying turned on, I would proactively limit it to Good-Clients, rather than < > allowing relaying for everybody except known Bad-Clients.) > 	 > -- Alani >  > >l > >Lawrence Bleaui > >University of Marylandc% > >Physics Dept., Space Physics Groupi > >301-405-6223n > >bleau@umtof.umd.edu > Q > ===============================================================================y2 >  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUO >  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056,O >  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210eQ > ===============================================================================n    G I have a good clients list and a bad clients list (mostly APAC and Euro F networks). I have had multiple host attempt to send email via my relayH (relay is on for POP reasons) Good clients include all of the PC's on myB LAN.  I still get "real" email from others, but they cannot use my# system as a relay to spam others...s   --   Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163 7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.comc Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)t 704-236-4377 (Mobile)o   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.327 ************************n set of CPUs:O and memory modules for the purpose of providing access to a given set of users..H These "sets" have no intrinsic borders. Their borders are DEFINED by the architecture of the OS itself. 	4 An OS is NOT a window manager.. It does NOT define the look and feel of a GUI.9 It is NOT a CLI, although even pros often blur this line.e  F I could go on here, but this could become a very long response a ]    ]    ]    ]    ]    ]    ]    ]    ]    	]    
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