1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 14 Jun 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 328       Contents:< "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it" Re: 8400 (MS7CC-FU) problems? 4 Re: A dvdwrite(r)-Program: save 4.3 GB on a DVD-R(W) A [departure from] VMS Disaster # Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster # Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster # Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster # Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster # Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster # Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday 9 Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?) 9 Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?) 9 Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?) 9 Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?) 9 Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?) 9 Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?) 3 Compaq Enterprise Directory Services for e-Business  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  RE: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: DECServer break key problem & DIR (was: RE: Could linux become VMS?) doubts about using edit/TPU  Re: doubts about using edit/TPU  Re: doubts about using edit/TPU  Re: doubts about using edit/TPU  Re: doubts about using edit/TPU  Re: doubts about using edit/TPU  Re: doubts about using edit/TPU < Fastest CD-R or CD-RW capabilities for burning under OpenVMS@ Re: Fastest CD-R or CD-RW capabilities for burning under OpenVMS" Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans! Interesting approach to marketing % Re: Interesting approach to marketing % Re: Interesting approach to marketing ; Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same? ? Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same? ? Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same? ? Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same? ? Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same?  Linus' comments about VMS + Re: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL / Marvelous EV7 system available for a test drive , Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...> New picture virus threatens data ... better dust off VMS mail! Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: Open Letter to HP  Re: Open Letter to HP G Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading) ' Re: PWS500au PowerStorm 3D30 DECWindows 8 Re: Request for path balancing (Was: Re: Carly was here)$ Re: RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write)$ Re: RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write)$ Re: RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write); Re: Secure HTTP client app buildable under OpenVMS/OpenSSL? 1 Re: Sun is on the way out!  Only HP and IBM left! & RE: tpc/ip file server for VMS systems Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history0 VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance4 Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance4 Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance4 Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance4 Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance4 Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance4 Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance4 Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance4 Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance4 Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance4 Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault toleranceD Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)D Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)D Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)D Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday) Re: VMS Monitoring a User  Re: VMS Monitoring a User  Re: VMS Monitoring a User   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:24:11 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> E Subject: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it" ' Message-ID: <3D0A26BB.5E9B16FF@Free.fr>   E I met a VMS customer today in Toulouse. Shadow temperature: 35. They E manufacture wooden furniture. They have a cluster of two 4410 running N FORTRAN-77/PDP-1/RSX images in AME mode and some other migrated programs. ThisO cluster drives tools-machines (5 axis, cutting machines, etc) and collects data L from the ground for management, statistics, etc. It also buils the inventoryP documents to manufacture the thousand of pieces they build, then it prepares the+ loading of the trucks for optimal delivery.   M He said: "Why I'll stay with DEC? Because I haven't rebooted my cluster since P many years, because we have just forgotten all about our computers which run andP run and run, because the last hardware intervention from DEC (he still says DEC)L was in april 1994 (he still has the blue Field Service folder with two pagesK inside, since 1982) for a battery to change and also because we have in our N building some VTs connected, via RS232, 300 meters from the computer room whenL the spec says 30 meters. This is why we will not change. I hope that one dayN other Customers will discover the amazing quality of these products that the 4, years COMPAQ era fortunately did not alter".   It has been a pleasant day.    D. --  2   ------------------------------------------------2 MORANDI Consultants  http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr0   19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.2 Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax: +33 (0)5 6154 19282 OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans2 --------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 06:26:26 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) & Subject: Re: 8400 (MS7CC-FU) problems?= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0206140526.4e38612e@posting.google.com>   n P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) wrote in message news:<55f85d77.0206111926.251784ff@posting.google.com>...5 > After working perfectly for around a day, our "new" 2 > 8400 dropped back into console mode and decided: > & > *** NO GOOD MEMORY MODULES FOUND ***' > *** CONSOLE WILL RUN FROM B-CACHE ***   0 *MANY THANKS* to Shiva Ramaswamy of the Computer, Clearinghouse Inc. for providing the answer:   P00>>>set simm_callout on   
 My result:  
 P00>>>init Initializing...    Results of SIMM_Callout:<   The following SIMMs are faulty on memory module in slot 3: J26   > The _only_ way this could get better is if you were told which component on the SIMM failed.   3 Looking at my 8400 in detail I am starting to think : it is the best design of a computer system I've ever seen,; including many of the Alphas, VAXen and PDPs I've had (that " would be going back 21 years now).  ; * Single Fan (for everything, including options such as PCI    cages and BA disk boxes)? * *VERY* clean power layout, 3 supplies on 3 phases with single @    48V supply for everything (some heat shrink tubing would have4    been nice on the lower 48V utility cables though)5 * Component layout on modules precise enough to match &    _*BLOCK DIAGRAMS*_ of how it works.: * Component layout to maximise cooling and ease of repair.  A I missing something here - why does the world use PC junk? - most ; of that looking like it was assembled by IR (IR Baboon - of A "I am Weasel" fame - Cartoon Network in case you were wondering).    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:33:41 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) = Subject: Re: A dvdwrite(r)-Program: save 4.3 GB on a DVD-R(W) 3 Message-ID: <FaIzQTNiqAvD@eisner.encompasserve.org>   s In article <3d01c7eb.0@news.uni-konstanz.de>, vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann) writes:  > K > In article <jXT7wXlacvMe@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net  > (Larry Kilgallen) writes:   D > |>Don't worry about me.  I am quite patient.  I have lots of time.@ > |>Sitting around to change discs while backing up to CDROM :-) > |> > A > Think about that: due to the sevenfold capacity of a DVD-RW you 9 > have much more time left, to do more meaningful things.   C I think that is quite impudent of you, to insist that my activities  be meaningful :-) :-) :-)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:52:26 +0000 2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>( Subject: A [departure from] VMS Disaster4 Message-ID: <20020614135226.C31522@eisenschmidt.org>   --vOmOzSkFvhd7u8Ms* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline + Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   L With all this talk about Unix, and all this talk about VMS disaster tollera=L nce, I'd like to share a little story for those of you who haven't .kill fi=7 led all my messages. It's a sad tale about leaving VMS.   L While my job title is "Systems Analyst", I'm sort of a generalist when it c=L omes to our financial systems. I maintain the hardware and operating system=< s, the databases, the apps, not unlike many of you I'm sure.  L Since humans first learned to walk upright (some time in the 1980s) my 152 =L year old employer (his name is "Fred") has been running two financial apps:=L  a GL/AP system I'll call BARIUM (since that's the OpenVMS node name it run=L s on) and an AR application called CESIUM (because CESIUM explodes on conta=A ct with water, and the app that runs on this box is as volitile).   L So BARIUM as a company is not doing so well, and I'll leave it at that. The=L  app has remained fairly unchanged in the 13 years we've run it (well, they=L 've run it - I was 10 when they bought it). In my opinion it's a great litt=L le application: a mixture of COBOL, DCL, FMS menus, and RMS files. It's a M=L aster File paradigm, so it couldn't be any faster. We have about 20 account=L ants using it, and when I moved it from an AS800 to a DS10 last year it bec=L ame so fast that the users were locking themselves out by submitting jobs a=L nd not getting out of the screen fast enough. It's biggest drawback is the =L inability to load data into AP (by end users) and lack of any *good* third = party reporting tools.  L In 1998 we had a failed conversion from BARIUM company's classic product to=L  their next generation (terrible) client server product. We ended up sticki=L ng with the RMS/FMS/COBOL system, and like I said it does almost everything=	  we want.   L But like a perfectly running car that you've had for 10 years, eventually y=L ou get bored and want something new and shiny. Since we had one failed migr=L ation, we hired consultants to do requirements analysis and help us with ve=L ndor interviews - it was incredibly informative and helpful. We picked a ve= ndor and bought an application.   L Our new GL/AP system is written in 4GL/Hybrid COBOL, runs on Solaris (reall=L y everything *but* OpenVMS - Windows, AS/400, HP-UX, Tru64), and has Oracle=L  as a back end database (again it could be SQL Server, Informix, DB2, Sybas=L e). It's not a bad system, it has 8 front ends (character cell, Client/Serv=L er GUI, Lotus Notes, several web interfaces) and it has a ton of functional=L ity. The problem is our implementation team stinks, and despite a well tune=L d Solaris and Oracle config (the load average is typically .08 and the IO w=L ait is typically under 10%) it's *slow*. To top it off, we found that based=L  on our chart of accounts its reporting tools (the 5 we bought) cannot gene=" rate the kinds of reports we want.  L One of the suggested solutions (I couldn't make this up) was a nightly load=L  from the new system into the old for reporting. I was like "are you kiddin=L g me?" We spent 20 times my salary to buy a system that can't generate the =L reports we need, and you want to shove data back into the old system nightl= y? What a nightmare.  L The only other problem with this system is patches. This company has like 2= 000 p L rogrammers, and there are almost literally 5 new patches every day. Between=  Marc L h 20th and May 10th there were 294 new patches for our release alone. One c= ould+ make a full time job just applying patches.   L So we go live July 1st. In the mean time the Alpha running the old system (=L standalone) has been up for almost a year, is lightning fast, and rarely re=7 quires me to do anything but change the backup tape.=20   L So HP, if you're looking for a young IT professional to be the spokes model=1  for OpenVMS, you know where you can email me.=20    --=20 / John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> 6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenL  PGP Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.a= scD  PGP Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2  L FOO MANE PADME HUM: "Our first obligation is to keep the FOO counters turni= ng."   --vOmOzSkFvhd7u8Ms' Content-Type: application/pgp-signature  Content-Disposition: inline    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----  Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (OpenBSD) * Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org  @ iD8DBQE9CfUZH5fmozfjvvIRAuu2AKCz2a31K4+NhOsagln29vXq7T6DtACfcOnp yAdW6d2N7HD7p+UM8+vD+Qs= =PKNJ  -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----    --vOmOzSkFvhd7u8Ms--   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:57:45 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>, Subject: Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster. Message-ID: <3D09F659.8A954A5E@mindspring.com>   John:   , Could you please wrap your text to something. like 79 columns? Your messages are essentially- unreadable on my newsreader as they run about  five or six screenwidths wide.   Atlant   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:35:06 GMT 2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>, Subject: Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster2 Message-ID: <uanO8.21$al6.329881@news.cpqcorp.net>   John,    Do you mind if I forward this?   sue   ? "John Eisenschmidt" <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> wrote in message . news:20020614135226.C31522@eisenschmidt.org...   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:48:42 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG , Subject: Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster0 Message-ID: <00A0F719.83917F6A@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <3D09F659.8A954A5E@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:  >John: > - >Could you please wrap your text to something / >like 79 columns? Your messages are essentially . >unreadable on my newsreader as they run about >five or six screenwidths wide.t >  >Atlantw >  >   I But you have that great unix multi-line editor you've been boasting aboute to remedy that situation.  ;)  --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMs            d5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" S   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:02:28 +0000S2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>, Subject: Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster4 Message-ID: <20020614160228.B32519@eisenschmidt.org>   I just can't win.    I used to post from my work account, and our email client at work in GroupWise. The problem was that the GroupWise client (more often than not) would MIME-mangle my messages.  So I thought: I'll do all my info-vax'ing from my personal email account. I use mutt (which uses vi to edit the email) so there's no chance of mangling it. Apparently the problem is that I gpg sign all my outgoing email, and some newreaders (particularly Outlook Express) that don't comply to all the standards they should get indigestion. As the mutt maintainers say: "All mail clients suck. This one just sucks less."S   I have added a send-hook to mutt NOT to sign my info-vax messages from now on, which will hopefully win the hearts of comp.os.vms readers around the globe.o  X Unless the Voices are Mistaken, system@SendSpamHere.ORG (system@SendSpamHere.ORG) Wrote:e > In article <3D09F659.8A954A5E@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:e > >John: > >l/ > >Could you please wrap your text to something 1 > >like 79 columns? Your messages are essentiallyo0 > >unreadable on my newsreader as they run about! > >five or six screenwidths wide.  > >e	 > >Atlant  > >  > >  > K > But you have that great unix multi-line editor you've been boasting aboutl  > to remedy that situation.  ;)  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi
 >             7 >   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" S   --  / John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>V6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenM  PGP Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.ascSD  PGP Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2  O FOO MANE PADME HUM: "Our first obligation is to keep the FOO counters turning."u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:26:11 -0400i2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>, Subject: Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster. Message-ID: <3D0A1923.EB155FC1@mindspring.com>   system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  e > In article <3D09F659.8A954A5E@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:  > >John: > >D/ > >Could you please wrap your text to somethinge1 > >like 79 columns? Your messages are essentially 0 > >unreadable on my newsreader as they run about! > >five or six screenwidths wide.e > >n	 > >Atlantt > >t > >e >-K > But you have that great unix multi-line editor you've been boasting about  > to remedy that situation.  ;)   5 And if I were reading them with tcsh, that'd be true.l1 But I'm reading them with Netscape, and it hasn'tc yet bought this clue. :-)t   Atlant   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 02 18:36:17 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) , Subject: Re: A [departure from] VMS Disaster) Message-ID: <ATgONsJ1d9$t@elias.decus.ch>o  i In article <20020614135226.C31522@eisenschmidt.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> writes:t > L Since I went to the trouble of reformatting this to read myself, here is the result of that reformat:     From - Fri Jun 14 17:16:26 2002.2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> Newsgroups: comp.os.vmss( Subject: A [departure from] VMS Disaster4 Message-ID: <20020614135226.C31522@eisenschmidt.org>% Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:52:26 +0000n+ Organization: Info-VAX<>comp.os.vms Gatewayn  : With all this talk about Unix, and all this talk about VMS? disaster tollerance, I'd like to share a little story for thoses? of you who haven't .kill filed all my messages. It's a sad talel about leaving VMS.  6 While my job title is "Systems Analyst", I'm sort of a= generalist when it comes to our financial systems. I maintainC@ the hardware and operating systems, the databases, the apps, not unlike many of you I'm sure.  < Since humans first learned to walk upright (some time in the> 1980s) my 152  year old employer (his name is "Fred") has been; running two financial apps: a GL/AP system I'll call BARIUMe9 (since that's the OpenVMS node name it runs on) and an ARx= application called CESIUM (because CESIUM explodes on contact > with water, and the app that runs on this box is as volatile).  > So BARIUM as a company is not doing so well, and I'll leave it> at that. The app has remained fairly unchanged in the 13 years? we've run it (well, they 've run it - I was 10 when they boughtt@ it). In my opinion it's a great little application: a mixture of8 COBOL, DCL, FMS menus, and RMS files. It's a Master File8 paradigm, so it couldn't be any faster. We have about 20< accountants using it, and when I moved it from an AS800 to a< DS10 last year it became so fast that the users were locking< themselves out by submitting jobs and not getting out of the> screen fast enough. It's biggest drawback is the  inability to> load data into AP (by end users) and lack of any *good* third  party reporting tools.  @ In 1998 we had a failed conversion from BARIUM company's classic9 product to their next generation (terrible) client server @ product. We ended up sticking with the RMS/FMS/COBOL system, and. like I said it does almost everything we want.  > But like a perfectly running car that you've had for 10 years,@ eventually you get bored and want something new and shiny. Since7 we had one failed migration, we hired consultants to doh= requirements analysis and help us with vendor interviews - it3> was incredibly informative and helpful. We picked a vendor and bought an application.  < Our new GL/AP system is written in 4GL/Hybrid COBOL, runs on; Solaris (really everything *but* OpenVMS - Windows, AS/400, > HP-UX, Tru64), and has Oracle as a back end database (again it; could be SQL Server, Informix, DB2, Sybase). It's not a badm@ system, it has 8 front ends (character cell, Client/Serv er GUI,8 Lotus Notes, several web interfaces) and it has a ton of= functionality. The problem is our implementation team stinks,a< and despite a well tuned Solaris and Oracle config (the load@ average is typically .08 and the IO wait is typically under 10%)? it's *slow*. To top it off, we found that based on our chart ofc> accounts its reporting tools (the 5 we bought) cannot generate the kinds of reports we want.a  > One of the suggested solutions (I couldn't make this up) was a> nightly load from the new system into the old for reporting. I= was like "are you kidding me?" We spent 20 times my salary tor> buy a system that can't generate the  reports we need, and you; want to shove data back into the old system nightly? What am
 nightmare.  @ The only other problem with this system is patches. This company? has like 2000 programmers, and there are almost literally 5 new-= patches every day. Between March 20th and May 10th there weret< 294 new patches for our release alone. One could make a full time job just applying patches.8  > So we go live July 1st. In the mean time the Alpha running the: old system ( standalone) has been up for almost a year, is@ lightning fast, and rarely requires me to do anything but change the backup tape.  > So HP, if you're looking for a young IT professional to be the: spokes model for OpenVMS, you know where you can email me.   --/ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>g6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen           __
 Paul Sture Switzerlande   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:20:59 +0200 ' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>D, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday' Message-ID: <3D09C38B.D804692@spam.not>s   Dave Weatherall wrote: > E > On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:33:32 UTC, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>y > wrote: > 	 > > Dave,n > >iL > > >>> If Rational were to port their development suite maybe we could stay
 > > on VMS.<<o > > L > > Note - My albeit limited understanding is that Rational's major focus isG > > now J2EE and java based products. We just did a major RFP (big UNIX H > > shop) here in Canada and the Customer stated they wanted Rational as > > their development suite. > >D& > > However, they also clearly stated:A > > - J2EE/Java was their future architecture (more future vendoru" > > independence was reason given)J > > - all J2EE/Java application development would be done on cheap Windows > > based PC's using Rational.> > > - all production deployment would be on UNIX based serversD > > - they had typical dev, test, qa, pre-prod and prod environments > > defined. > >RH > > In other words, in the J2EE/Java world, the development platform canC > > very easily be different than what is rolled out in production.? > E > I take your point Kerry but I don't expect to see Java VM's runningaC > aircraft any time soon :-) Would be interesting though. Maybe the-* > Pentagon already has a project  running. > F > OTOH if Rational's ADA-95 IDE suite (i.e. Apex) were written in JavaF > then we could possibly have deployed it on VMS instead of Solaris. I# > suspect it's mostly C/C++ though.   B Why do you think so? There is a long term analysis available from A Rational that comes to the conclusion that Ada is *at least* two <B times as productive than C. The author says that C++ might change E the picture in the future. This is true but in a different direction n@ than the author thought, C++ es even worse. Why should a decent   company switch from Ada to C++??   -- n? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, a@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence-   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:29:57 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen):, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday3 Message-ID: <PJWgk0Upi8TH@eisner.encompasserve.org>F   In article <3D09279D.F501DEE1@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net>, "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net> writes:  J >     Not mentioned by other respondants: little-endian versus big-endian.G > Having done a lot of programming early on, I can tell you this is NOTlH > just a recompile-and-go issue.  It is porting, in some cases redesign,@ > and frequently painful having to examine reams of source code.  D Unless, of course, the application was designed to be endian-neutral1 from the start, such as by using ASN.1.  Few are.m  E >     OTOH, if you're talking about vendor-supplied turn-key types of8D > applications, it shouldn't matter what's under the hood as long as > it's reliable and secure.P  E What is under the hood matters, but it shows up as vendors who deciden$ not to port to the new architecture.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:00:17 +0200 E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>lB Subject: Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?)+ Message-ID: <3D09CCC1.7765156B@mediasec.de>   D > > The complaint I have here is that DEC^H^H^H... have not made theC > > CLD and the library implementing things such as the common fileeE > > selection qualifiers generally available outside the VMS-suppliede > > utilities. > I shall, in light of:eS file:/disk$axpdocjun021/opsys/vmsos73/vmsos73/4493/4493pro_004.html#4493_cqual_chapr  M AH, so what was introduced in the V5 timeframe, IIRC, at V7.3 finally reachesfL the light of day? Applause! Now why couldn't it have been ten years earlier?   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:41:50 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)sB Subject: Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?)3 Message-ID: <I17DFmHbvmsL@eisner.encompasserve.org>O  s In article <3D09CCC1.7765156B@mediasec.de>, Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> writes:fE >> > The complaint I have here is that DEC^H^H^H... have not made thenD >> > CLD and the library implementing things such as the common fileF >> > selection qualifiers generally available outside the VMS-supplied >> > utilities.  >> I shall, in light of:U > file:/disk$axpdocjun021/opsys/vmsos73/vmsos73/4493/4493pro_004.html#4493_cqual_chapO > O > AH, so what was introduced in the V5 timeframe, IIRC, at V7.3 finally reachesuN > the light of day? Applause! Now why couldn't it have been ten years earlier?  6 What was the subject of customer complaints was fixed.  > It takes a while for such things to be cleaned up suitable for? customer use, even after priorities are set.  There is a kernell> feature which is undocumented even though it is quite clear by= the name what effect it has.  But another aspect of VMS woulda> have to have an enhancement of it's VMS V1.0 behavior in order$ to unleast the feature on the world.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:15:18 -0400e6 From: "John.Malmberg" <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>B Subject: Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?)4 Message-ID: <3D09EC66.1020108@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>   Jan C. Vorbrggen wrote:C >>>The complaint I have here is that DEC^H^H^H... have not made thenB >>>CLD and the library implementing things such as the common fileD >>>selection qualifiers generally available outside the VMS-supplied
 >>>utilities.y >> >>I shall, in light of:e > U > file:/disk$axpdocjun021/opsys/vmsos73/vmsos73/4493/4493pro_004.html#4493_cqual_chapy > O > AH, so what was introduced in the V5 timeframe, IIRC, at V7.3 finally reacheseN > the light of day? Applause! Now why couldn't it have been ten years earlier?  I I seem to remember reading about the CDU utilities and how to write .CLD iC files in the V5 documentation set, but I would have to pull an old  " condist out of storage to confirm.   -Johnf" malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq.hpq Personal Opinion Onlye   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:28:36 +0200<E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>oB Subject: Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?)+ Message-ID: <3D09EF84.528BEDD4@mediasec.de>5  J > > AH, so what was introduced in the V5 timeframe, IIRC, at V7.3 finally F > > reaches the light of day? Applause! Now why couldn't it have been  > > ten years earlier?J > I seem to remember reading about the CDU utilities and how to write .CLD% > files in the V5 documentation set, e  H We're not talking CDU - that was available earlier - but the common fileN selection subset, which took a while to be implemented as a common feature forG most VMS commands and even longer until packaged such that user-written-& facilities can make use of it as well.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:30:34 +0200eE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>oB Subject: Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?)+ Message-ID: <3D09EFFA.E929D9F1@mediasec.de>e  8 > What was the subject of customer complaints was fixed. > @ > It takes a while for such things to be cleaned up suitable for/ > customer use, even after priorities are set. i  D A lame excuse, in this case. It was cleaned up enough to be suitableC for wide-spread use within the most important VMS utilities. And in C other similar cases, the user-callable support was supplied at the nE same time as the one integrated into the utilities. And complaints byc/ customers that this was missing were immediate.   D Don't be so defensive about VMS, Larry. Only the Pope is infallible.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 08:41:21 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)@B Subject: Re: Common File Qualifiers (was: Could linux become VMS?)3 Message-ID: <8b2YHbjvy3rp@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  s In article <3D09EFFA.E929D9F1@mediasec.de>, Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> writes:x9 >> What was the subject of customer complaints was fixed.t >> rA >> It takes a while for such things to be cleaned up suitable forh0 >> customer use, even after priorities are set.  > F > A lame excuse, in this case. It was cleaned up enough to be suitableE > for wide-spread use within the most important VMS utilities. And in-E > other similar cases, the user-callable support was supplied at the cG > same time as the one integrated into the utilities. And complaints bya1 > customers that this was missing were immediate.d  H Fine, have it your way.  The new version of Mail was shipped in a timely; fashion, _well_ before it was suitable for customer use :-)G   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:55:47 -0400I; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>a< Subject: Compaq Enterprise Directory Services for e-Business$ Message-ID: <3d0a2e1d$1@news.si.com>  J I just received the June CONDIST.  I was reading the "New Features" manual4 and saw a paragraph on Compaq's LDAP implementation.  K Why does it run only on Alpha???  There doesn't seem to be anything speciallG about it that requires Alpha.  The software it needs also runs on VAXes L (OpenVMS V7.3, DECnet Plus V7.2, Compaq TCP/IP Services V5.0A).  What gives? --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comt= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventm< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:04:18 +0200 E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <3D09CDB2.9536F6DF@mediasec.de>   ' > Do we need multiline command editing?   J Yes. Not as much as in the old days or under Unix (for different reasons),H but it's still a very nice thing to have. Hey, if Windows can do it, why
 can't VMS?   	Jan  G PS: The answer is that nobody in the VMS group dare touch the DCL code.wK Similar to the linker, only there the Alpha port and 64 bit support finallye< forced them to re-write it. Can't expect such luck with DCL.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:17:47 +0100g4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?8 Message-ID: <u1kjgus42sv5bgfpjeq1guk4pjgi3qsdqo@4ax.com>  5 On Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:04:18 +0200, Jan C. VorbrggenM! <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote:B  ( >> Do we need multiline command editing? >RK >Yes. Not as much as in the old days or under Unix (for different reasons),aI >but it's still a very nice thing to have. Hey, if Windows can do it, whyr >can't VMS?t >oH >PS: The answer is that nobody in the VMS group dare touch the DCL code.L >Similar to the linker, only there the Alpha port and 64 bit support finally= >forced them to re-write it. Can't expect such luck with DCL.l  J I think it has been stated before that the code is in the terminal driver.H DCL merely provides access to the multiple command recall functionality.     	Johne   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:31:23 +0200-E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>a$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <3D09D40B.8F5AC348@mediasec.de>   L > I think it has been stated before that the code is in the terminal driver.J > DCL merely provides access to the multiple command recall functionality.  J Single-line command editing is in the terminal class driver. No reason whyN DCL couldn't "roll its own" for multi-line editing when required. I agree it'sG too much work and inappropriate to teach the terminal class driver that N trick. So the reason is, nobody wants to touch the DCL code to add this. Which is what I said.1   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:03:13 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <0xox6VzNTopZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  Q In article <3D0936F1.24181BF@spam.not>, Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> writes:s  ' > Do we need multiline command editing?e  = Those of us who always run with line editing disabled do not.d   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:07:14 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)u$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <ney08pGiGK+h@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  s In article <3D09D40B.8F5AC348@mediasec.de>, Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> writes: M >> I think it has been stated before that the code is in the terminal driver. K >> DCL merely provides access to the multiple command recall functionality.o > L > Single-line command editing is in the terminal class driver. No reason whyP > DCL couldn't "roll its own" for multi-line editing when required. I agree it'sI > too much work and inappropriate to teach the terminal class driver thatDP > trick. So the reason is, nobody wants to touch the DCL code to add this. Which > is what I said.u  B "Nobody wants" is a bit simplistic.  DCL is an area where backward? compatibility is most crucial and least susceptible to thoroughe< testing (TECO syntax is another).  Changing DCL would not be+ nearly so hard as testing the change fully.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:14:28 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D09DE24.659529F6@mindspring.com>   Brass Christof wrote:   F > > > >  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier?% > > > >      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier?a > > >tJ > > >    We all know what th /print qualifier does, don't we?  We all knowC > > >    what the /output qualifier does, too.  That's consistency.i > >o4 > > Great. Now try answering *THE QUESTION I ASKED*. > >n< > > *WHICH* commands implement the elusive /PRINT qualifier?F > > You prbably don't know without looking/trying. I certainly didn't,? > > and I used VMS for the better part of several decades. Sameg8 > > for /OUTPUT. Someday *ALL* the DEC-provided commandsA > > may implement those two qualifiers. But it's a certainty thatr; > > there will *NEVER* come a time when all the third-partyd. > > and user-provided commands implement them.  4 You still haven't answered my question. I guess I'll8 just have to assume that you have no idea which commands9 implement the /PRINT and /OUTPUT qualifiers. That's okay;d. neither do I. But I'm willing to admit it. :-)    : > At least there is a clear concept which can be observed./ > If some don't observe it they make a mistake.s  1 Yeah. A "clear concept" and US$1.00 might get your2 a cup of coffee, but it still *WON'T* get you your	 printout.     = > Anyway if you want to log the output you can SET HOST /LOG.e  5 Ahh! Now *THERE* is a solution (which some might callm9 "a hack") which *WILL* get you your printout, albeit witho> a bunch of editing of the logfile. I guess you'll also need to: know a log-in to the account you're attempting to use, but& that's only a small additional hassle.    * > How do you log the user input with UNIX?  4 Well, one can log user input very easily with "tee"; I just tried it:     % tee logfile | tcsh  1 Output, of course, is trivially easy and known toj" all but the most-green Unix users:  E   % <yourcommand> > logfile         # Output to just logfile, not TTYl>   % <yourcommand> | tee logfile    # Output to TTY and logfile  3 But that's not what you meant to ask so I'll answerp3 the real question that I think you meant: "How doesi1 one create an interleaved I/O log in the style ofw SET HOST/LOG?"  4 And the answer from me is: "I have no idea!" I never+ used SET HOST/LOG *EXCEPT* as a hack to geth/ around the lack of /PRINT and /OUTPUT, so up toe/ this moment, I have *NEVER* needed that ability 2 in Unix! I suppose if I were writing documentation0 that needed extensive logs of terminal sessions,2 I'd find a way. I'm sure there are tools out there. that pass data from one pseudo-TTY to another,3 logging the data as they go. And I have a perfectly@1 fine Telnet tool on my Mac that could keep a log.f2 But until the need arises or someone else answers,- I'll remain ignorant of the means to do this.-    8 > > >    So what does -r mean?  There is no consistency. > > 2 > > I admitted that both command environments have0 > > weaknesses. Can you make the same admission? >e/ > Okay there are 5% in VMS that can be improvedi* > and 95% in UNIX that should be improved. >l > Do you feel better now?2  1 Not really. I was just using these small examplesn/ to try to show you that not all is well in yourl/ glass house. nor is all well in my glass house. , But if you can't generalize from those small0 examples to the larger picture, I don't think it2 will profit me to launch into a full-scale "OS <x>0 is better than OS <y>" flame-war, and I'm pretty5 sure the rest of the reading audience wouldn't reallye welcome the war anyway.   1 Feel free to keep believing that your glass house 2 is far, far better than anyone else's glass house.   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:36:33 -0400n2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D09E351.27AF32F4@mindspring.com>   Brass Christof wrote:b  < > 1.How do you display the three time stamps of a UNIX file?  - You can select the desired timestamp using lse- qualifiers. But I suppose you're trying to bei, tricky and ask "How do you display all three( time stamps *AT THE SAME TIME*?" In that/ case I would run my little "stat" program whichi2 dumps *ALL* of that stat'able data associated with3 a file. Doubtless there are other means. I've neverr/ needed to see all three timestamps at one time. , BTW, when you're doing that in VMS, how wide is your terminal output?    B > 2.How do you display a certain set of attributes of a UNIX file?  1 I'm not sure I understand the question; it sounds.1 trivially easy. "ls -l" shows me the attributes Iq1 care about (including whether or not the file has4- any acls). ls has other selectors that selecto* subsets of those attributes but I've never/ used them. If I needed a subset not provided byi, ls, about two minutes with perl or awk would4 provide any arbitrary subset in any order I desired.    = > 3.How do you display a certain subset of entries within onei9 >   directory based on a name restriction with wildcards?d  2 Once again, I don't understand your question. What5 part of * and ? don't you understand? And if you wantc5 more sophisticated searching, pipe the output to yours; favorite grep and select the desired files with full regexpr5 capabilies. Between grepping things "in" and greppingg8 things "out" (with -v), you'd have complete flexibility., In what way would you consider VMS superior?    ; > 4.How do you accomplish a fixed width display format whent( >   showing the contents of a directory?  0 Once again, I don't see your point, nor do I see2 where VMS is any improvment. Unix at least has the6 courtesy to put the varying-width stuff (the filename)2 at the right side of the display; VMS embeds it at2 the left where you have to work hard to get at it.3 (You don't really think it's a fixed-width filenameo field, do you???)w  / By the way, in VMS, can you get a list of files./ listed one-filename-per-line, as you might wante! for raw material for a .COM file?     < > Do you know what can happen if a file exists with name -r?  $ Yes. Do you? A software professional+ learns these sorts of things. Especially if ' the software professional has read "The  Unix Hater's Handbook". :-)/  '                                  Atlantc   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:36:02 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)u$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <n6wAzm2QJTok@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  c In article <3D09DE24.659529F6@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:m > 6 > You still haven't answered my question. I guess I'll: > just have to assume that you have no idea which commands; > implement the /PRINT and /OUTPUT qualifiers. That's okay;C0 > neither do I. But I'm willing to admit it. :-)  H    I didn't answer it, either.  In part because I don't see the point ofG    it.  Do you know how which UNIX commands implement the -r option, orn(    the -t option?  And why woud we care?  A    Or should I say <implement some option that does recursion, oriD    reverse, or list, or by time, or ...> (gee, what else have these     two letters been used for)?  @    Since both systems have pipes it's a moot issue.  It's also a$    painfull issue to raise for UNIX.   > > >> Anyway if you want to log the output you can SET HOST /LOG. >   F    I've done that for my UNIX systems, too.  You can still get DECnet H    Phase IV for almost anything.  I've been thinking of installing it on    my kid's Linux box.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:44:31 -0400u2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D09E52F.2590F707@mindspring.com>  E > Do we need multiline command editing? I chose a smaller font to letrC > the command line fit into the window or define a short logical tom" > reduce the number of characters.  . No matter how many characters you can fit on a2 line (and something around 200 to 300 seems like a6 practical maximum with todays fonts/screens/eyeballs),4 one can always find a longer command line that needs editing.  . I used to run into this problem *ALL THE TIME*, on VMS using my standard 132-column windows;/ the fact that the tcshell can do this correctlyk) *WITHOUT* fiddling window widths and font94 sizes is one of the things I'm most appreciative of.  ( Yes, IMNSHO VMS *DEFINIITELY* needs this feature!   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:53:32 -0400e2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D09E74B.D591F703@mindspring.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:  e > In article <3D09DE24.659529F6@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:- > >-8 > > You still haven't answered my question. I guess I'll< > > just have to assume that you have no idea which commands= > > implement the /PRINT and /OUTPUT qualifiers. That's okay;i2 > > neither do I. But I'm willing to admit it. :-) >eJ >    I didn't answer it, either.  In part because I don't see the point ofI >    it.  Do you know how which UNIX commands implement the -r option, orb* >    the -t option?  And why woud we care?  0 The point, of course, was the original claim was+ that DCL is orthogonal compared to any Unix,+ shell and /OUTPUT and /PRINT were raised asb5 the proof-points of this claim. The claim falls down,c. though, when one realises that even though the, same two words are used, no one has any idea( which bizarro subset of the DCL commands& actually *IMPLEMENT* these supposedly+ "orthogonal" keywords; you're still reduced - to trial-and-error or reading the help files.=  . You're right in that if they had actually been4 fully implemented, my question would be meaningless.* But they weren't nearly fully implemented.  , -r falls into a different category. *NOBODY*/ would ever make the claim that the Unix commands language is orthogonal! :-)e   Atlant   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:12:20 -0500 (CDT),? From: "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>s$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?< Message-ID: <200206141312.g5EDCJaM008627@cryptofortress.com>  H On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:   >Brass Christof wrote:   <snip>  0 >By the way, in VMS, can you get a list of files0 >listed one-filename-per-line, as you might want" >for raw material for a .COM file?   $ DIR/COLUMNS=1a  = >> Do you know what can happen if a file exists with name -r?y >l% >Yes. Do you? A software professionali, >learns these sorts of things. Especially if( >the software professional has read "The >Unix Hater's Handbook". :-)  J Quite. If you go looking for faults you'll find them (*any* OS). If you goI around dredging these things up then you're just looking for religious OS  wars.>     Doc. -- l6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net.   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 12:53:44 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)e$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <aecp0o$2s70$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  0 In article <00A0F682.47105A6B@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:c |> In article <aeaoti$1tgt$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:h4 |> >In article <00A0F66C.8E056755@SendSpamHere.ORG>,$ |> > system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes: |> >|> rM |> >|> And whilst on the topic of "after-market documentation", I'll offer myo# |> >|> observations and opinions...i |> >|> oM |> >|> My last trip to B&N's "computer" shelves found little more than PeeCeei |> >|> and Micro$chlock books. i |> >|> e |> >J |> >A quick search of Barnes & Noble online revealed 1.582 Titles with theL |> >keyword Unix.  It listed 109 Titles with the keyword VMS.  Care to guess7 |> >what happens if you make that OpenVMS??  16 Titles.o |> eK |> I was speaking of the bricks-and-mortar B&N, not the online B&N.  If youeK |> want to be pedantic, the bricks-and-mortar Amazon hasn't any unix or VMSm |> books. ;)  H Yes, but I couldn't check the bricks and mortar one from my office.  :-)  B The numbers from the online show a 15:1 ratio.  It is unlikely theA ratio in the real store would be more in VMS's favor.  They stocknE what sells. The fact remains that the original post said you couldn't B find Unix books "ANYWHERE".  And yet there are 15 times as many as@ VMS books.  And 100 times as many as OpenVMS books. (Many of the& none-Open VMS books are about VAX/VMS)  F If potential users can't learn anything about VMS they always considerE it obscure and non-mainstream.  I think Linux is over-hyped, but lookaE what it has accomplished.  It has greater marketshare, popularity and D brand recognition than many alternatives that are even better suitedF to the very niches that Linux dominates.  Might not be much and may beF a little late, but maybe some of the VMS experts here need to sit downD and consider writting some books on VMS.  Of course, getting someoneC to publish themmay be difficult and getting a store to actually putuE them on the shelf might be even harder.  But I, for one, could reallyk@ use an equivalent to the "UNIX System Administration Handbook" IC mentioned earlier that targeted the more common tasks of VMS in onetG concise location.  I am sure there are others who could use it as well.    bill   -- rJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   b   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 14:01:34 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d09f73e.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  L In article <3D08734B.FBC36CC2@mediasec.de>, jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de says... >eE >> >The commands' parameters and options are a complete mess on UNIX.C >> Your opinion, I disagree. >aK >No, that's not opinion. There are people out there, you know, that conducteL >experiments with live human beings on the suitability of a user interface. N >Some situations even require formal certification of this aspect of software.M >There are measurable differences between interfaces, and Unix shells and DCLwK >are no difference. I'm sure you weren't on that Airbus flight to Straburg D >when it crashed in no small part due to a flaw in interface design. >tE >What Unix commands, as a collective, are lacking is consistency and dH >memorability. My mind works differently from a computer, thank you very >much.  < One does not follow the other... your opinion. Mine differs.   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 14:05:53 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d09f841.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  N In article <mQ2tKO1eEC0+@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org  says...t > ? >In article <3D088E00.6E48E8FA@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt 6% <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:K >> "Jan C. Vorbrggen" wrote:l >> bG >>> What Unix commands, as a collective, are lacking is consistency andtF >>> memorability. My mind works differently from a computer, thank you >>> very much. >> a% >> Okay, here's a quick test for you:n >> eA >>  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier?r  >>      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier? >> e >l >   Ask the wrong question...l > E >   We all know what th /print qualifier does, don't we?  We all knowo> >   what the /output qualifier does, too.  That's consistency. > 3 >   So what does -r mean?  There is no consistency.t  $ Not unlike picking /all and /full???   >e7 >> Now, contrast that with the analagous Unix question:W >>  < >>   o Which Unix commands allow their output to be printed? >>       ...saved to a file? >> b >tG >   Like VMS, all of them.  If you don't know how, I suggest you learn.x  P Doesn't matter as all command output can be piped to a printer "|". All command / output can be redirected to a file ">" or ">>".,   Not a parameter in sight...r   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 14:10:51 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d09f96b.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  K In article <3D09DE24.659529F6@mindspring.com>, atlantnospam@mindspring.com   says...W >l [...]w  4 >the real question that I think you meant: "How does2 >one create an interleaved I/O log in the style of >SET HOST/LOG?"  > 5 >And the answer from me is: "I have no idea!" I never , >used SET HOST/LOG *EXCEPT* as a hack to get0 >around the lack of /PRINT and /OUTPUT, so up to0 >this moment, I have *NEVER* needed that ability3 >in Unix! I suppose if I were writing documentationm1 >that needed extensive logs of terminal sessions, 3 >I'd find a way. I'm sure there are tools out there / >that pass data from one pseudo-TTY to another,m4 >logging the data as they go. And I have a perfectly  J Yes, ttywatcher. Freeware, source available. Compiles on HP/UX, Tru64 and ? Solaris. Does it realtime by watching the /dev/tty of the user.      [...]h   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 14:15:01 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d09fa65.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  L In article <3D08A818.CF2D3FE1@mediasec.de>, jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de says... > % >> Okay, here's a quick test for you:  >>  A >>  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier?!  >>      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier? >eC >I don't care for /PRINT - too limited anyway. All I need implementtB >/OUTPUT. Should one be around that doesn't, there still is DEFINE >SYS$OUTPUT/USER or PIPE.   = Pipe - a good unix concept brought to VMS - a godsend really.s     > I >But my point was that the names of these options are the same everwhere.t  N But whether they apply to all commands is a lottery - normally only satisfied  by checking the help.a   >d7 >> Now, contrast that with the analagous Unix question:u >> a< >>   o Which Unix commands allow their output to be printed? >>       ...saved to a file? >OE >Wrong question. Or you would have needed to ask the same question ofl >the VMS commands above. >h >        Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:34:54 +0200 E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>d$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <3D09F0FE.DD0383A8@mediasec.de>   D > "Nobody wants" is a bit simplistic.  DCL is an area where backwardA > compatibility is most crucial and least susceptible to thorough > > testing (TECO syntax is another).  Changing DCL would not be- > nearly so hard as testing the change fully.n  D Agreed. Thorough testing, I wouldn't know. Instrument a VMSINSTAL ofF a dozen upgrades and check that the same actions were taken by the old and the new version. '  C The new MAIL is another example, although I dare say DCL's expected B behaviour is probably better defined that MAIL's in many respects.  * At some time, you have to bite the bullet.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:35:51 +0200 E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>w$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <3D09F137.B625153D@mediasec.de>o  F > >What Unix commands, as a collective, are lacking is consistency andJ > >memorability. My mind works differently from a computer, thank you very > >much. > > > One does not follow the other... your opinion. Mine differs.  C Then, apparently, you are not a human being. Interesting statement.g   	Jan   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 14:36:27 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3d09ff6b.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  A In article <3D092F6C.7CD9404B@spam.not>, welcome@spam.not says...m >s >Aristotle SnowNasis wrote:d >> xD >> In article <3D0628BA.591BCCE7@spam.not>, welcome@spam.not says... >> > >> >Aristotle SnowNasis wrote: >> >>eN >> >> In article <adoch4$jga$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov>, Scandora@cmt.anl.gov says... >> >> >l; >> >> >"Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in messageo) >> >> >news:3CFF3B6D.ED24C47D@spam.not... + >> >> >> "Scandora, Anthony (35048)" wrote:  >> >> >> ...E >> >> >> > > Did I mention that UNIX is shit/crap and C fits well in?i
 >> >> >> >N >> >> >> > There is a lot not to like about it, but once properly configured,  UNIX canN >> >> >> > run reliably and do a lot of work, and most of what's wrong with C  alsoM >> >> >> > applies to BLISS and to Macro.  A lot can be said about .ascid v. t .asciz< >> >> >> > strings, but that's a lanugage independent issue. >> >> >>E >> >> >> The point is how much time you need to get it in that state. D >> >> >> Having BLISS and Macro similar flaws doesn't make C better. >> >> >t >> >> > N >> >> >It's annoying, but not too difficult to learn where those config files  aredL >> >> >and what goes in them.  I suspect someone who doesn't know VMS would  moanO >> >> >about having to learn AUTOGEN and MODPARAMS.  Once you know your stuff, l it's? >> >> >pretty easy to configure either a Linux or a VMS system.  >> >> G >> >> I'd agree. VMS can be so obtuse at times, whereas MOST Unix have e
 configurationyM >> >> files in centrally located areas. Also, help on VMS is quite brief and   noteN >> >> always very helpful. On the other hand, man pages, while sometimes beingP >> >> tautological are full of information, especially that parts that describe  thel, >> >> files used in such-and-such a program. >> >E >> >The commands' parameters and options are a complete mess on UNIX.  >> s >> Your opinion, I disagree. >UC >Prove your opinion. We are in a VMS NG. The people who understand lA >VMS know that your opinion is wrong because VMS' UI and command t: >set has been designed while the UNIX equivalents haven't.  K Designed? Designed as in standardized by one manufacturer because that one  L manufacturer could not convince any other to take it up? Yes, you're right. K Even after making it OpenVMS the world didn't want to listen. Perhaps such fP elitist attitudes of the glass house brigade concerning "design" are irrelevant O to the world as a whole? Maybe people just couldn't live with a clunky command rI language like DCL which relies on provided commands to perform anything? -M Perhaps people just got sick of asking "Where's the restore command? I found sN the backup command..." Who knows. Either way VMS has its down-sides JUST like  the various Unix.c   >s >eE >> >The standardised API for UNIX is that low level that tons of code ! >> >are duplicated with the apps.s >>   >> What? > $ >Go get some programming experience.  P You do live in another world don't you. Try programming in both - then get back  to me.   >PO >> >> By the way, I'm an administrator on several unix and vms platforms (vax & 
 >> >> alpha).w >> >>eG >> >> Overall, VMS has stood still for years while Unix has marched on   (especially toI >> >> the degree of products provided by the likes of HP, Sun, Compaq to   enhance thed >> >> "unix experience"...)  >> >. >> >Why isn't there anything like CDL on UNIX? >> >H >> >A mature OS should provide a more complete base and more concise API >> >than UNIX. >> eN >> These are rather non-specific statements. Hard to hit a target if we don't  know >> what it is. > H >Your statement seems to be a hint that your programming experience with >VMS t1 >is rather low. It's hard to explain the obvious.o  E Methinks you've not touched Unix of any description. I'm non-plussed.i     >.O >> >> >Similar language flaws don't make C worse, either.  C can't be condemnedm1 >> >> >unless BLISS and Macro are also condemned.j >> >> >>N >> >> >> > VMS advocacy would be better served by touting its advantages than  byK >> >> >> > calling products that do a lot of useful work and the people whoi4 >> >> >> > create them perjorative and vulgar names. >> >> >>H >> >> >> VMS is cleanly designed while UNIX is not. This is a difference= >> >> >> which is independent of the implementation language.  >> >> >iM >> >> >What's under the hood of my car is interesting to me and fun to learn h about,N >> >> >but not as important to me as the fact that the car was easy to buy, itO >> >> >starts when I turn the key, and it gives me a nice ride to where I want T toI >> >> >go.  Likewise, I stand in admiration of the outstanding design andrN >> >> >implementation of VMS, but what matters to most computer users is that  the-) >> >> >system runs applications reliably.u >> >I >> >Completely agreed from that point of view. But on the long term it's c	 importantdN >> >how the services are implemented because this influences the stability and" >> >costs for further development. >> >I >> >The same reason applies to C and PERL development. It doesn't deliver J >> >quality at acceptable costs. Therefore it's important to look under to	 >> >hood.h >> >N >> >> It strikes me as rather snobbish to describe VMS as "cleanly designed".  SureI >> >> Unix started its life as an experimental OS and grew from that and ' subsequentlyN >> >> inherited a few flaws, it has been tightened up over the years to prove  to be am" >> >> very stable and reliable OS. >> >E >> >I read that VMS was designed in an organised way, but UNIX wasn'trK >> >but instead was developed in a more experimental trial and error style.T >> nN >> You're living in the past. Unix has changed so much from the original days,
 >> obviously.o >rG >Alas, the philosophy hasn't changed. Most UNIX apps are as unreliable aB >as the OS itself. And a few very important features haven't been @ >implemented because it had needed to rewrite UNIX from scratch.    M Grandiose and stupid statements that are just plain stupid. I can't even see aJ the point in continuing as I don't want to enter into some flame war over N stupid OS's. Get your jollies over VMS by all means. I use and work with both L flavours - both have good points and bad. It's a pity that zealots like you ( don't have an open mind to that concept.   Have a good life.u   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:22:08 GMTr! From: Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net>C$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?> Message-ID: <Xns922D736742338acsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>  ? bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) enlightened us withs% news:aecp0o$2s70$1@info.cs.uofs.edu: a    5 >|> >In article <00A0F66C.8E056755@SendSpamHere.ORG>,e% >|> > system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:m >|> >|> @ >|> >|> And whilst on the topic of "after-market documentation",2 >|> >|> I'll offer my observations and opinions... >|> >|> B >|> >|> My last trip to B&N's "computer" shelves found little more, >|> >|> than PeeCee and Micro$chlock books.   'B Hmmm.... the B&N in Nashua, NH, US ( corner of Daniel Webster HW ?: & Spit Brook Road) used to have a fairly nice selection of= computer related titles when I started going there (approx. 7-@ years ago), including at least, on average, 10 VMS related books? (mostly Digital Press) including some rather "esoteric" volumes.* as the Tony Redmond(?) ALL-IN-1 books....   @ > The numbers from the online show a 15:1 ratio.  It is unlikelyA > the ratio in the real store would be more in VMS's favor.  Theyc > stock what sells.   ; The last time I went to the above bookstore I couldn't findsB the section of computer books that WAS NOT MS or Internet related.A (I'm sure it's there SOMEWHERE but a casual browser wouldn't find> it...) e  A The large book chains seem to think all anyone needs is a book onw. Windows, the Internet, & occassionally Linux.   7 THe "local" Borders near me now has a better selection s? of computer topics (though the closest they get to VMS is that sA book on "clusters" that doesn't say much of anything about VMS.).o  < Scary.... it used to be the worst place to look for a non-MS computer topic.    -Andy-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:28:35 +0200V' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>o$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D0A0BA3.BB8153EF@spam.not>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:B >  > Bob Koehler wrote: > g > > In article <3D09DE24.659529F6@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:h > > >s: > > > You still haven't answered my question. I guess I'll> > > > just have to assume that you have no idea which commands? > > > implement the /PRINT and /OUTPUT qualifiers. That's okay;h4 > > > neither do I. But I'm willing to admit it. :-) > >iL > >    I didn't answer it, either.  In part because I don't see the point ofK > >    it.  Do you know how which UNIX commands implement the -r option, or , > >    the -t option?  And why woud we care? > 2 > The point, of course, was the original claim was- > that DCL is orthogonal compared to any Unix,- > shell and /OUTPUT and /PRINT were raised asr7 > the proof-points of this claim. The claim falls down,n0 > though, when one realises that even though the. > same two words are used, no one has any idea* > which bizarro subset of the DCL commands( > actually *IMPLEMENT* these supposedly- > "orthogonal" keywords; you're still reduced./ > to trial-and-error or reading the help files.b > 0 > You're right in that if they had actually been6 > fully implemented, my question would be meaningless., > But they weren't nearly fully implemented. > . > -r falls into a different category. *NOBODY*1 > would ever make the claim that the Unix commando > language is orthogonal! :-)e >  > Atlant  5 This is a very good example: it's far better to have  - some functionality missing than implement it h9 inconsistently. /PRINT and /OUTPUT work the way expected o9 or they don't work at all. With UNIX you always take the  : risk issueing a harmful command because you're mistakenly 4 using an option which has special meaning with this 7 specific command. I also don't understand why -r isn't i used consistently.   -- x? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, n@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequences   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:30:48 GMT,! From: Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net>i$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?> Message-ID: <Xns922D74DFFA78Cacsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>  9 "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>f enlightened us withf5 news:200206141312.g5EDCJaM008627@cryptofortress.com:    % > On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Atlant Schmidt ' > <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote: p >  >>Brass Christof wrote:e >  > <snip> > 1 >>By the way, in VMS, can you get a list of filesn1 >>listed one-filename-per-line, as you might wante# >>for raw material for a .COM file?  >  > $ DIR/COLUMNS=1f  6 Hmmm.... I prefer (to get the directory spec included)   $ DIR/NOHEAD  6 but is there a way to supress the "Total of XX files." line other than to use pipe ?)  ( $ pipe dir/nohead | search sys$input ";"   -Andy-   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 10:35:30 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <reh+g8Ebd6wh@eisner.encompasserve.org>@  b In article <Xns922D74DFFA78Cacsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>, Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net> writes:  8 > but is there a way to supress the "Total of XX files." > line other than to use pipe ?e > * > $ pipe dir/nohead | search sys$input ";"   DIRECTORY/NOTRAILy  . (you should get hundreds of answers posted :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 10:38:36 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <vdeAG3qYU6xB@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  b In article <Xns922D74DFFA78Cacsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>, Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net> writes:; > "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>  > enlightened us with 7 > news:200206141312.g5EDCJaM008627@cryptofortress.com: o > & >> On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Atlant Schmidt( >> <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:  >> f >>>Brass Christof wrote: >> y	 >> <snip>  >> s2 >>>By the way, in VMS, can you get a list of files2 >>>listed one-filename-per-line, as you might want$ >>>for raw material for a .COM file? >> n >> $ DIR/COLUMNS=1 > 8 > Hmmm.... I prefer (to get the directory spec included) >  > $ DIR/NOHEAD > 8 > but is there a way to supress the "Total of XX files." > line other than to use pipe ?r > * > $ pipe dir/nohead | search sys$input ";" >   ! 	$ directory/noheading/notrailingg   			Rob   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:24:02 +0200 ' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D0A0A92.D40E6541@spam.not>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:G >  > Brass Christof wrote:a > H > > > > >  o  Precisely which VMS commands implement a /PRINT qualifier?' > > > > >      ...An /OUTPUT qualifier?f > > > >rL > > > >    We all know what th /print qualifier does, don't we?  We all knowE > > > >    what the /output qualifier does, too.  That's consistency.o > > >d6 > > > Great. Now try answering *THE QUESTION I ASKED*. > > >p> > > > *WHICH* commands implement the elusive /PRINT qualifier?H > > > You prbably don't know without looking/trying. I certainly didn't,A > > > and I used VMS for the better part of several decades. Samee: > > > for /OUTPUT. Someday *ALL* the DEC-provided commandsC > > > may implement those two qualifiers. But it's a certainty that3= > > > there will *NEVER* come a time when all the third-partyE0 > > > and user-provided commands implement them. > 6 > You still haven't answered my question. I guess I'll: > just have to assume that you have no idea which commands; > implement the /PRINT and /OUTPUT qualifiers. That's okay;-0 > neither do I. But I'm willing to admit it. :-)  ; I think your question is irrelvant because it has never be S= answered in practice. If I issue a DCL command interactively t= or write one in a command procedure I know whether I can use n; one of those both qualifiers. If I don't know I can easily  ; check. Assume for a moment that all commands have it. Then f; I had to enumerate all which is unlikely to be able to do. h? I dont' think most experts are able to enumerate all commands. a  7 I may be a better question to ask which commands don't l
 support them.q  < > > At least there is a clear concept which can be observed.1 > > If some don't observe it they make a mistake.- > 3 > Yeah. A "clear concept" and US$1.00 might get you54 > a cup of coffee, but it still *WON'T* get you your > printout.m  8 At least I know who to blame and there is chance to get 9 this fixed because it is a clear concept which tells how   the solution should work.n  ? > > Anyway if you want to log the output you can SET HOST /LOG.c > 7 > Ahh! Now *THERE* is a solution (which some might calla; > "a hack") which *WILL* get you your printout, albeit withe@ > a bunch of editing of the logfile. I guess you'll also need to< > know a log-in to the account you're attempting to use, but( > that's only a small additional hassle.  > I might have logged in already why would I be able to execute  any commands otherwise?s  , > > How do you log the user input with UNIX? > 6 > Well, one can log user input very easily with "tee"; > I just tried it: >  >   % tee logfile | tcsh > 3 > Output, of course, is trivially easy and known too$ > all but the most-green Unix users: > G >   % <yourcommand> > logfile         # Output to just logfile, not TTYa@ >   % <yourcommand> | tee logfile    # Output to TTY and logfile > 5 > But that's not what you meant to ask so I'll answery5 > the real question that I think you meant: "How doeso3 > one create an interleaved I/O log in the style of. > SET HOST/LOG?"  4 Your answer is already okay. I used tee a few times 6 but wasn't very happy with it. I also remember system ( that haven't tee. Is this standard UNIX?  6 > And the answer from me is: "I have no idea!" I never- > used SET HOST/LOG *EXCEPT* as a hack to getn1 > around the lack of /PRINT and /OUTPUT, so up tow1 > this moment, I have *NEVER* needed that abilityw4 > in Unix! I suppose if I were writing documentation2 > that needed extensive logs of terminal sessions,4 > I'd find a way. I'm sure there are tools out there0 > that pass data from one pseudo-TTY to another,5 > logging the data as they go. And I have a perfectlyo3 > fine Telnet tool on my Mac that could keep a log.t4 > But until the need arises or someone else answers,/ > I'll remain ignorant of the means to do this.i > : > > > >    So what does -r mean?  There is no consistency. > > > 4 > > > I admitted that both command environments have2 > > > weaknesses. Can you make the same admission? > >n1 > > Okay there are 5% in VMS that can be improvedp, > > and 95% in UNIX that should be improved. > >t > > Do you feel better now?> > 3 > Not really. I was just using these small examples>1 > to try to show you that not all is well in yourt1 > glass house. nor is all well in my glass house. . > But if you can't generalize from those small2 > examples to the larger picture, I don't think it4 > will profit me to launch into a full-scale "OS <x>2 > is better than OS <y>" flame-war, and I'm pretty7 > sure the rest of the reading audience wouldn't reallyA > welcome the war anyway.  > 3 > Feel free to keep believing that your glass houseg4 > is far, far better than anyone else's glass house.  9 You're completely missing the point: the balance matters!e   >  > Atlant   -- >? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, i@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequenceb   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:49:50 +0100nU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>g$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?0 Message-ID: <aed3r3$6fr$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   David J. Dachtera wrote:  * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >  >>David J. Dachtera wrote: >> >> >>>Aristotle SnowNasis wrote:n >>>dG >>>That's what documentation is for. However, since none comes with thenK >>>average UN*X variant, the man pages are about all there is - ANYWHERE! -VJ >>>other than things like the on-line FreeBSD doc.'s and such. Even today,: >>>there is still a great preference for hard-copy doc.'s. >>>w >>>a >>>hF >>I have to dissagree. Solaris for example comes with something calledC >>answerbook which is full doumentation on CD. If you don't want tohI >>use that and have a browser connected to the internet then docs.sun.com D >>and or sunsolve also provide full documentation and patch reports. >> > I > ...and if you don't have another computer running, your screwed withouto > the hard-copy. >     6 We supply hard copy manuals, you pay extra for them or4 you can print your own, the CD copies are printable.   Regardsw Andrew Harrisonr   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:09:33 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D0A153D.1284C3BE@mindspring.com>   Brass Christof wrote:c  8 > > You still haven't answered my question. I guess I'll< > > just have to assume that you have no idea which commands= > > implement the /PRINT and /OUTPUT qualifiers. That's okay;>2 > > neither do I. But I'm willing to admit it. :-) > < > I think your question is irrelvant because it has never be> > answered in practice. If I issue a DCL command interactively> > or write one in a command procedure I know whether I can use > one of those both qualifiers.   / It's pretty amusing to tell me that my questionv, "never [has to be] answered in practice" and2 then cite an example (writing a command procedure)1 where you *MUST* answer the question, if only forC  the narrow scope of one command.    A > > > Anyway if you want to log the output you can SET HOST /LOG.c > >l9 > > Ahh! Now *THERE* is a solution (which some might call>= > > "a hack") which *WILL* get you your printout, albeit withoB > > a bunch of editing of the logfile. I guess you'll also need to> > > know a log-in to the account you're attempting to use, but* > > that's only a small additional hassle. >f? > I might have logged in already why would I be able to execute  > any commands otherwise?n  ) Then again, you might not have. You mightt* have only "sat down" at a terminal. I only& suggest this to point out some "hidden" assumptions" that make your answer# less-than-general and "orthogonal".>    5 > Your answer is already okay. I used tee a few timesg7 > but wasn't very happy with it. I also remember systeme* > that haven't tee. Is this standard UNIX?  2 It seems to be. (Is there a "standard" Unix? :-) )    5 > > Feel free to keep believing that your glass houser6 > > is far, far better than anyone else's glass house. >b; > You're completely missing the point: the balance matters!e  9 Hmm, I think I'd be likely to say the same about you! :-)R: I use/program upon Unix because I like it. In fact, I like> using it/prgramming upon it more than I like using/programming9 upon VMS. This is, of course, an opinion that expresses aS7 personal taste, and opinions and tatses vary. But I seef5 a lot of discussions in c.o.v. that seem to run alongq0 the lines of "Unix sucks because it doesn't have. <my_favorite_feature>!" or "...because it does* things <this_way> rather than <that_way>!"  : Honestly, quite often, there are few or no objective facts6 to support either position, pro or con to Unix or VMS., There are just opinions and personal tastes.  4 And discussions about the strengths or weaknesses of9 the command languages definitely fall smack in the middlen6 of that category. Me, I *ALWAYS* thought DCL sucked as4 a command language and would have gladly returned to2 the days of CCL. So tcsh, which strongly resembles7 turbocharged CCL is just fine with me. Others obviouslyh< feel differently. "ls -1" is as natural to me as falling off2 a log whereas others may find "DIRECTORY /NOHEADER3 /NOTRAILER" (or whatever you guys finally decide is 2 the correct answer for the same DCL command) to be just as natural.  ' But we're all just expressing opinions.o  3 And my suggestion (which I've made more than once),i3 of course, is that people be a bit more open-minded1 about alternatives.M   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:56:52 -0500-+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>6$ Subject: RE: Could linux become VMS?J Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E04139E52@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;H 	charset="iso-8859-1"m   > -----Original Message-----0 > From: Brass Christof [mailto:welcome@spam.not]  D > Prove your opinion. We are in a VMS NG. The people who understand B > VMS know that your opinion is wrong because VMS' UI and command ; > set has been designed while the UNIX equivalents haven't.   ? It might be more fair to say that the VMS UI has been designed  @ from a system level perspective, while, on unix, only individualE commands may have had their interfaces "designed," and many didn't ;)n  6 At any rate, that certainly causes some inconsistency.  H > Alas, the philosophy hasn't changed. Most UNIX apps are as unreliable C > as the OS itself. And a few very important features haven't been :A > implemented because it had needed to rewrite UNIX from scratch.r  B It ends up being circular sometimes.  A well designed system will B encourage well designed apps, and a well designed set of apps goes@ a long way in allowing a well designed system to remain so.  TheC reverse is also true.  Unix had a disadvantage starting out becausekD of the lack of planning.  It's becoming better, but it's a difficultA process, and I don't see it matching VMS in that respect any timea soon.  r  @ There are other systems (windows), which are much worse off, of  course.s  4 > I'm in a process to switch back to DECnet locally.: > IP is a complete mess also. It fits well into UNIX an C.  ; .. as I was saying, a poorly designed system will encourage-> poorly designed apps, which will then make the system's design difficult to improve.  p  ? Again, I see much more of this in windows than I see in Unix.  A: Apps that _insist_ on writing to directories where system 9 files are stored (sometimes writing to the system files, i; themselves)... It's a complete nightmare.  Of course, this h; happens because of lack of forethought in the design of thes: system, and now enforces the poor design.  (Just try write2 protecting the system directory from normal users)  ; In Unix, we see some similar things.  There will be severalo; different, somewhat compatible, ways to do any given thing.p9 I'm sure it stems from the original design of the system,o: and it's not really desirable.  You can't completely blame: the original system programmers for this, of course.  It's; perpetuated by those who write bad applications.  (Or good,l but misguided, applications ;)  ; There may be some of this in VMS, too -- the fact that it'sh< more difficult than it ought to be to put some products on a; disk other than the main system drive may qualify.  Now, onn= the subject of a clean design, VMS's design shines even here,9 since it's _possible_ to do it.  It could simply be made r much easier than it is.i   Chrisr    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developero Amdocs - Champaign, IL  > "Confutatis maledictus, flammis acribus addictus, voca me cum ; benedictis.  Oro supplex et acclinis, cor contritunt quasi  ' cinis, gere curarn mei finis." -RequiemB  * --=_IS_MIME_Boundary) Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-asciii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  Content-Disposition: inline:  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------y  C The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,.  1 protected from disclosure, and may be privileged.m  N The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)  L of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,  P you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of   ? this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. s  N If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately  > by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.  
 Thank you.  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------?   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary--   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:15:21 +0000 (UTC)s From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <aed4qp$dnc$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>n  o In article <IfbO8.227380$Gs.20430642@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:> >t+ ><system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message + >news:00A0F66C.8E056755@SendSpamHere.ORG...wI >> In article <aeajdo$1r3b$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu. >(Bill Gunshannon) writes: >> {...snip...}eG >> >any more than it would be for Unix.  But, regardless of which shipssH >> >with more documentation, there ican still be little doubt that thereI >> >is much more third party, aftermarket documentation for Unix than for: >> >VMS. >>K >> Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there doesn'tM8 >> need to be any additional after-market documentation. >nK >It's much more likely that the VMS market is simply too small and stagnant.4 >to be worth writing for, except as a labor of love. > I >If the non-computer-literate public wants to take a peek at the industryhG >outside the bounds of Windows, what's the one class of 'real' computere- >systems they've likely ever heard of?  Unix.- >-M >If a Windows weenie wants to expand his/her horizons to 'real' systems, sameb- >answer (if NT/2K/XP don't satisfy the urge).  >sK >If someone experienced on some other 'legacy' system wants to jump careers7J >to a system with better long-term prospects, the only real candidates are8 >Windows NT descendants and Unix (including Linux/*BSD). > H >Even if a Unix engineer wants to jump to another Unix, there are enoughL >idiosyncracies that s/he might well purchase a book on the target Unix just >to get up to speed. >aK >Similar reasons explain why there are even more Windows-related books thantE >Unix books.  It's much more a matter of system popularity (and hence>J >potential book market) than anything to do with system (or documentation) >excellence or lack thereof. >p >- bille >   F If that were the case then there should have been a massive market forM third-party VMS books in the early eighties. There wasn't because as has beeniH said before the standard documentation was good enough and comprehensive enough to make it unnecessary.O My experience has been that you definitely need third-party books to understand:( Unix system administration and security.K Also my experience of vendor supplied Unix documentation has been that justwJ because the manual says something works doesn't necessarily mean it really does.?  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:23:34 GMT ! From: Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net>o$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?> Message-ID: <Xns922D7DD189E6Aacsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>  ; Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) enlightened us with , news:reh+g8Ebd6wh@eisner.encompasserve.org:   @ > In article <Xns922D74DFFA78Cacsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>,& > Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net> writes:  > 9 >> but is there a way to supress the "Total of XX files."   >> line other than to use pipe ? >> n+ >> $ pipe dir/nohead | search sys$input ";"e >  > DIRECTORY/NOTRAILE  C Argh! That's just too intuitive %-).... and somehow I missed it in eD HELP. I was thinking "supress "Total"..... hmmm /NOTOTAL.... didn't  work...i  0 > (you should get hundreds of answers posted :-)  > Yes.... it was the WRONG question to ask on a Friday..... %-).   -Andy-   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 11:26:34 -0600- From: frey@encompasserve.org (Sharon Guthrie)t$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <K2wULEmQCkTd@eisner.encompasserve.org>b  c In article <3D09E351.27AF32F4@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:h > Brass Christof wrote:a > = >> 1.How do you display the three time stamps of a UNIX file?s > / > You can select the desired timestamp using lsb/ > qualifiers. But I suppose you're trying to bep. > tricky and ask "How do you display all three* > time stamps *AT THE SAME TIME*?" In that1 > case I would run my little "stat" program whichc4 > dumps *ALL* of that stat'able data associated with5 > a file. Doubtless there are other means. I've never 1 > needed to see all three timestamps at one time.t. > BTW, when you're doing that in VMS, how wide > is your terminal output?  , 	It doesn't matter in this case.  See below:  C >> 2.How do you display a certain set of attributes of a UNIX file?u > 3 > I'm not sure I understand the question; it soundst3 > trivially easy. "ls -l" shows me the attributes Ig  H 	I think he's referring to the fact that the RMS layer of VMS gives our I files alot more attributes than you have in unix file systems.  Thus the  = command DIR/FULL gives you:  (note all the timestamps listed)    Directory STAFF:[SHARON]  ; LOGIN.COM;33                  File ID:  (8670,10,256)      a/ Size:            3/18         Owner:    [303,1]t" Created:   13-JUL-2001 07:57:44.85& Revised:   13-JUL-2001 07:57:45.00 (1) Expires:   <None specified>  Backup:    <No backup recorded>  Effective: <None specified>l Recording: <None specified>g File organization:  Sequential Shelved state:      Online  E File attributes:    Allocation: 18, Extend: 0, Global buffer count: 0a$                     No version limitF Record format:      Variable length, maximum 0 bytes, longest 77 bytes4 Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control RMS attributes:     None Journaling enabled: None= File protection:    System:RWED, Owner:RWED, Group:RE, World:a Access Cntrl List:  None   Total of 1 file, 3/18 blocks.I  B 	I'm really curious about the question about finding all the unix N commands that use the -r parameter.  What's the answer and what's the command  to get the answer?@ 	Also, instead of SET/HOST/LOG, I prefer to capture output with I redefining my SYS$OUTPUT logical (when a /output or /print option aren't t available).   N DEFINE SYS$OUTPUT SHARON.TXT to send the output to a file.  Often, if I don't L care to keep the file laying around and want to be tricky, I send the stuff  directly to a printer with:o  I DEFINE SYS$OUTPUT LTA100:	  (need suitable device privs for this, though)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:31:24 +0200t' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?' Message-ID: <3D0A1A5C.8868D0F@spam.not>n   "Doc.Cypher" wrote:e > J > On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote: >  > >Brass Christof wrote: >  > <snip> > 2 > >By the way, in VMS, can you get a list of files2 > >listed one-filename-per-line, as you might want$ > >for raw material for a .COM file? >  > $ DIR/COLUMNS=1l > ? > >> Do you know what can happen if a file exists with name -r?e > >a' > >Yes. Do you? A software professionale. > >learns these sorts of things. Especially if* > >the software professional has read "The > >Unix Hater's Handbook". :-) > L > Quite. If you go looking for faults you'll find them (*any* OS). If you goK > around dredging these things up then you're just looking for religious OSb > wars.t  ; This is an oversimplification because it doesn't take into n= account how often those problems arise, how much damage they s? can cause and wether this is minor problem or *a design flaw*.    < In this case it reveals a major design flaw of UNIX command  interpretation and processing.   -- -? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, r@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencec   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:29:04 +0200D' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>N$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D0A19D0.66840906@spam.not>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:U >  > Brass Christof wrote:e > > > > 1.How do you display the three time stamps of a UNIX file? > / > You can select the desired timestamp using lsi/ > qualifiers. But I suppose you're trying to be . > tricky and ask "How do you display all three* > time stamps *AT THE SAME TIME*?" In that1 > case I would run my little "stat" program which 4 > dumps *ALL* of that stat'able data associated with5 > a file. Doubtless there are other means. I've never 1 > needed to see all three timestamps at one time. . > BTW, when you're doing that in VMS, how wide > is your terminal output?  7 The point is that it may well be necessary to dump all l8 these data into a file for later processing. UNIX is in < the case of displaying timestamp information very irregular > because it automatically decides to display in another format 5 if the timestamp is more than six month in the past. >7 If you want to prevent this you get yet another format.1  D > > 2.How do you display a certain set of attributes of a UNIX file? > 3 > I'm not sure I understand the question; it sounds 3 > trivially easy. "ls -l" shows me the attributes Im3 > care about (including whether or not the file hasy/ > any acls). ls has other selectors that select., > subsets of those attributes but I've never1 > used them. If I needed a subset not provided byf. > ls, about two minutes with perl or awk would6 > provide any arbitrary subset in any order I desired.  7 That was my point. You answered my question correctly. l< But even with -l you don't get all the information at once. 7 And if you want certain subsets you need help of tools.)  ? > > 3.How do you display a certain subset of entries within oneo; > >   directory based on a name restriction with wildcards?u > 4 > Once again, I don't understand your question. What7 > part of * and ? don't you understand? And if you want 7 > more sophisticated searching, pipe the output to yourf= > favorite grep and select the desired files with full regexpa7 > capabilies. Between grepping things "in" and grepping : > things "out" (with -v), you'd have complete flexibility.. > In what way would you consider VMS superior?   How do you mimic   $ DIRECTORY ALPHA*  = > > 4.How do you accomplish a fixed width display format whenn* > >   showing the contents of a directory? > 2 > Once again, I don't see your point, nor do I see4 > where VMS is any improvment. Unix at least has the8 > courtesy to put the varying-width stuff (the filename)4 > at the right side of the display; VMS embeds it at4 > the left where you have to work hard to get at it.5 > (You don't really think it's a fixed-width filenamen > field, do you???)s  6 I do. It is. But not only the filename field. You can = specify which width you want to have for the filename field. s= With all respect since the filename is what normally matters R> most it is nothing but logical to put it in the first column. ; If additional fields are required they're simply appended.  8 The order is fixed. If you have name, size and date the : order is always name, size and date. You can't have size,  date and name e.g..i  1 > By the way, in VMS, can you get a list of filess1 > listed one-filename-per-line, as you might want!# > for raw material for a .COM file?s   :-)a   /COLUMNS=<value>  8 You have also the options /noheading and /notrailing to 1 prepare the output for programmatical processing.x  > > > Do you know what can happen if a file exists with name -r? > & > Yes. Do you? A software professional- > learns these sorts of things. Especially ifn) > the software professional has read "TheY > Unix Hater's Handbook". :-)m   Got me.e  0 You and your UNIX passed the test's first round. Congratulations.  0 There is one question open which is because the - question wasn't well explained (number 3). I 1 hope the question is clear now.o   I want to add another question.D  . 5.How do you avoid prefixing each filename by 0   the path if you want a directory listing from 0   a directory that is not the current directory?   $ DIRECTORY DEVICE:[DIRECTORY]   -- n? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL,  @ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencec   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:47:29 -040082 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D0A1E21.F55916FC@mindspring.com>   Sharon Guthrie wrote:-  / > You can select the desired timestamp using ls 1 > > qualifiers. But I suppose you're trying to bep0 > > tricky and ask "How do you display all three, > > time stamps *AT THE SAME TIME*?" In that3 > > case I would run my little "stat" program which 6 > > dumps *ALL* of that stat'able data associated with7 > > a file. Doubtless there are other means. I've neveri3 > > needed to see all three timestamps at one time.f0 > > BTW, when you're doing that in VMS, how wide > > is your terminal output? >o5 >         It doesn't matter in this case.  See below:s  4 I see. Your command produces an output "record" that9 spans multiple output file records and will take a pretty 6 good perl script or .COM procedure to parse. It's also- pretty difficult for a human to scan as well.s    C >  I'm really curious about the question about finding all the unix < > commands that use the -r parameter.  What's the answer and' > what's the command to get the answer?U  3 The answer, as on VMS, varies depending on optionalc; and layered software installed on the system. But remember,r4 I'm the one who *DOESN'T* claim his favorite command set is orthogonal.    A >  Also, instead of SET/HOST/LOG, I prefer to capture output withoJ > redefining my SYS$OUTPUT logical (when a /output or /print option aren't
 > available).o >tO > DEFINE SYS$OUTPUT SHARON.TXT to send the output to a file.  Often, if I don'tnM > care to keep the file laying around and want to be tricky, I send the stuffc > directly to a printer with:s >mQ > DEFINE SYS$OUTPUT LTA100:         (need suitable device privs for this, though)o  8 Kinda screws up the local (on terminal) display, though,5 doesn't it? That makes this a pretty poor alternativee- to either SET HOST/LOG or a proper /OUTPUT ors( "tee" facility. But to each his/her own.   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:01:33 -0400e2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D0A216D.66C47ECC@mindspring.com>   Brass Christof wrote:u  @ > > > 1.How do you display the three time stamps of a UNIX file? > > C > If you want to prevent this [format changing] you get yet anotherr	 > format.     Which, of course, *IS* parsable.     > [3.] How do you mimic. >O > $ DIRECTORY ALPHA*   Simple:i     ls ALPHA*   = The shell globs the filespec, expanding this to, for example,i  9   ls ALPHA_IS_BORN  ALPHA_GOES_FASTER  ALPHA_BECOMES_DEADr  6 and ls then outputs the directory information for each of those files.d    ? > > > 4.How do you accomplish a fixed width display format whent, > > >   showing the contents of a directory? > >s4 > > Once again, I don't see your point, nor do I see6 > > where VMS is any improvment. Unix at least has the: > > courtesy to put the varying-width stuff (the filename)6 > > at the right side of the display; VMS embeds it at6 > > the left where you have to work hard to get at it.7 > > (You don't really think it's a fixed-width filenamed > > field, do you???)p >t > I do. It is.  . No, it only is *UP TO A POINT*. Then, IIRC, it3 jumps wider in increments of 8 columns. It's a realo. PITA to process directories that contain files1 with both long and short filenames. Unless you'rev* going to tell me that there's *YET ANOTHER, SELDOM-USED QUALIFIER* that I need to apply!    / > 5.How do you avoid prefixing each filename byn1 >   the path if you want a directory listing frome2 >   a directory that is not the current directory? >o  > $ DIRECTORY DEVICE:[DIRECTORY]  - Oh, I'm sure there's some clever way of doingv it, but I'd just:m   pushd <path_stuff> ls -1t popd  3 Have you got a push-directory/pop-directory feature 1 in DCL yet? If not, I could probably find my .COM-% file that used to do that for me. :-)-     Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 12:12:34 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)2$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <4WpKAaL+aHHm@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  Q In article <3D0A1A5C.8868D0F@spam.not>, Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> writes:n > "Doc.Cypher" wrote:" >> T >> <M >> Quite. If you go looking for faults you'll find them (*any* OS). If you gogL >> around dredging these things up then you're just looking for religious OS >> wars. > = > This is an oversimplification because it doesn't take into >? > account how often those problems arise, how much damage they aA > can cause and wether this is minor problem or *a design flaw*. l > > > In this case it reveals a major design flaw of UNIX command   > interpretation and processing. >   > 	Funny you should mention that last thing.  Back out to Dennis& 	Ritchie's homepage and you find this:  / http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/vax1.html'  M They talked some about software. It was rather depressing. Most of it will bewF emulated. (Presumably in a 2MB machine you will still have to tell theL assembler how big a symbol table to use.) The system itself will be new, butL unimaginative. They did not seem to understand, for example, why or even howO the command interpreter should be a separate process and not in the system, and'- why commands themselves should be processes. t   ---y  A 	Their initial critique of VMS was that command processing was/ise> 	broken.  They don't get why commands themselves should NOT be 	processes. ;-)r  B 	"VMS is new but unimaginative."  However, well designed.  So muchB 	so that it beat Unix to clustering by about 10 years give or take 	a year or two.    	And so it goes . . .    				Robp   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:48:43 +0200r' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>n$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D0A1E6B.17D8DDB6@spam.not>   Aristotle SnowNasis wrote: > C > In article <3D092F6C.7CD9404B@spam.not>, welcome@spam.not says...c > >l > >Aristotle SnowNasis wrote:    > >> Your opinion, I disagree. > >lD > >Prove your opinion. We are in a VMS NG. The people who understandB > >VMS know that your opinion is wrong because VMS' UI and command< > >set has been designed while the UNIX equivalents haven't. > L > Designed? Designed as in standardized by one manufacturer because that oneM > manufacturer could not convince any other to take it up? Yes, you're right.eL > Even after making it OpenVMS the world didn't want to listen. Perhaps suchQ > elitist attitudes of the glass house brigade concerning "design" are irrelevant P > to the world as a whole? Maybe people just couldn't live with a clunky commandJ > language like DCL which relies on provided commands to perform anything?N > Perhaps people just got sick of asking "Where's the restore command? I foundO > the backup command..." Who knows. Either way VMS has its down-sides JUST likew > the various Unix.w  - This is an easy way to escape sharp analysis.9E Of course it might be easier to design something in an organised way sB if people are working together under the hood of a company. A lot H of very good and consistent designs (Apple) have been created that way. D But there is no warranty to accomplish that even within one company.  F I'm not fighting agains political statements like "elitist" or "glass D house" or "the million flies" arguments. As we know the majority of A computer people is more than stupid as every other people in the q@ world. Olson Ken and Jobs Steve aren't stupid and the knew/know > that design needs leadership and sometimes even dictatorship. @ Obviously not everybody is happy with the solution. But you can @ observe in history of mankind that a good design outweights the  few drawbacks by far.3  A Do you know of any good PL that has been designed by a committee?t  A Do you really think that the number of different shells for UNIX  ( is a productivity improvement *overall*?    G > >> >The standardised API for UNIX is that low level that tons of codet# > >> >are duplicated with the apps.o > >>
 > >> What? > > & > >Go get some programming experience. > Q > You do live in another world don't you. Try programming in both - then get back  > to me.  
 Done already.i    G > Methinks you've not touched Unix of any description. I'm non-plussed.i  E I'm talking about APIs not admistration tools. As SysAdmin you won't   understand that.    G > >> >I read that VMS was designed in an organised way, but UNIX wasn'tpM > >> >but instead was developed in a more experimental trial and error style.n > >>P > >> You're living in the past. Unix has changed so much from the original days, > >> obviously.n > >tH > >Alas, the philosophy hasn't changed. Most UNIX apps are as unreliableC > >as the OS itself. And a few very important features haven't beensB > >implemented because it had needed to rewrite UNIX from scratch. > N > Grandiose and stupid statements that are just plain stupid. I can't even seeK > the point in continuing as I don't want to enter into some flame war over O > stupid OS's. Get your jollies over VMS by all means. I use and work with both M > flavours - both have good points and bad. It's a pity that zealots like youg* > don't have an open mind to that concept. >  > Have a good life.:  > Sad enough that every time people like you switch to personal @ insults when they ran out of arguments. I suggest to read a bit @ about history and importance of architecture and design. Simply 7 implementing features doesn't make an OS well designed.g   -- d? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, r@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequenceW   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:19:05 +0000 (UTC)E From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?+ Message-ID: <aed8i9$el7$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>n  b In article <Xns922D74DFFA78Cacsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>, Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net> writes:: >"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> >enlightened us with6 >news:200206141312.g5EDCJaM008627@cryptofortress.com:  >e& >> On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Atlant Schmidt( >> <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:  >> r >>>Brass Christof wrote: >>  	 >> <snip>  >> t2 >>>By the way, in VMS, can you get a list of files2 >>>listed one-filename-per-line, as you might want$ >>>for raw material for a .COM file? >> n >> $ DIR/COLUMNS=1 >a7 >Hmmm.... I prefer (to get the directory spec included)  >t
 >$ DIR/NOHEAD> > 7 >but is there a way to supress the "Total of XX files."l >line other than to use pipe ? > ) >$ pipe dir/nohead | search sys$input ";"f >? >-Andy-    DIR/NOHEAD/NOTRAIL  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:31:21 GMTg# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>f$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?J Message-ID: <JLpO8.329638$t8_.292134@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message& news:aecp0o$2s70$1@info.cs.uofs.edu... But I, for one, could reallyB > use an equivalent to the "UNIX System Administration Handbook" IE > mentioned earlier that targeted the more common tasks of VMS in onepI > concise location.  I am sure there are others who could use it as well.  >U   Two that come to mind are:  J Mastering VMS -  David Bynon. ISBN 0-9614729-7-9. Professional Press Books 1990L The Hitchhikers Guide to VMS - Bruce Ellis. ISBN 1-878956-00-0. Professional Press Books 1990/ No idea whether more up-to-date editions exist.r   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:35:51 +0100 (MET)19 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>p$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?; Message-ID: <01KIXKR573HU984WQP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>S  = > But that wasn't the part that made me laugh.  I meant, "VMSu$ > documentation is so well written".  I ???  I think the traditional VMS documentation is a very good example of  ) how good documentation should be written.y  " > Each to his own tastes, I guess.   Indeed.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:40:53 GMTg* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?B Message-ID: <FUpO8.168010$4i.14741884@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  + <david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk> wrote in messageg% news:aed4qp$dnc$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk...nJ > In article <IfbO8.227380$Gs.20430642@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill& Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > > - > ><system@SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in messagea- > >news:00A0F66C.8E056755@SendSpamHere.ORG...dK > >> In article <aeajdo$1r3b$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu  > >(Bill Gunshannon) writes: > >> {...snip...}eI > >> >any more than it would be for Unix.  But, regardless of which shipstJ > >> >with more documentation, there ican still be little doubt that thereK > >> >is much more third party, aftermarket documentation for Unix than forn
 > >> >VMS. > >>E > >> Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that theret doesn'te: > >> need to be any additional after-market documentation. > > D > >It's much more likely that the VMS market is simply too small and stagnant6 > >to be worth writing for, except as a labor of love. > >uK > >If the non-computer-literate public wants to take a peek at the industryfI > >outside the bounds of Windows, what's the one class of 'real' computer)/ > >systems they've likely ever heard of?  Unix.e > >sJ > >If a Windows weenie wants to expand his/her horizons to 'real' systems, same/ > >answer (if NT/2K/XP don't satisfy the urge).t > >aE > >If someone experienced on some other 'legacy' system wants to jumpt careersiL > >to a system with better long-term prospects, the only real candidates are: > >Windows NT descendants and Unix (including Linux/*BSD). > >eJ > >Even if a Unix engineer wants to jump to another Unix, there are enoughI > >idiosyncracies that s/he might well purchase a book on the target UnixL just > >to get up to speed. > > H > >Similar reasons explain why there are even more Windows-related books thanG > >Unix books.  It's much more a matter of system popularity (and henceyL > >potential book market) than anything to do with system (or documentation) > >excellence or lack thereof. > >f	 > >- billy > >  >eH > If that were the case then there should have been a massive market for. > third-party VMS books in the early eighties.  K Nope, because there was only a miniscule market for *all* computer books inpL the early '80s, since both the PC 'revolution' and the expansion of computer7 use to pervade virtually all business had yet to occur.s   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:59:03 -0400e0 From: "Alan Boyles" <alan.boyles@mindspring.com>( Subject: Re: DECServer break key problem/ Message-ID: <ugjmbv9jiti603@corp.supernews.com>i  F Give the guys at Digital Networks a  call @ 1-877-341-9594, they stillI support the DECserver and can give all the info on connfigurations/setup.i7 If that doesn't work try Dennis Majikas @ 603-589-0324.a   Alan.h  5 "Alan Frame" <maryh1nge@hotmail.com> wrote in messagep7 news:abe7363f.0206130602.2d5e56ef@posting.google.com...t > Hello All, >f9 > Can anyone please help me with a DECServer 700 problem.fF > The Decserver is used to access terminals from a LAN, and one of theH > terminals requires a "break" condition to be applied to the RS232 line+ > before it will bring up the login prompt.oD > I have tried everything that I can see in the configuration of the5 > server, but can't get it to pass a break condition.o3 > Has anyone any ideas ( firstly, can it be done?).e >uD > For completeness, I telnet into the decserver using the appropriteE > port ( 2005 ), and from there need to be able to map a key that theuF > decserver will understand and pass the break condition down the port > to the terminal. >I+ > Any suggestions would be gladly received.u >a > thanks in advancea   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:47:12 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>-/ Subject: DIR (was: RE: Could linux become VMS?)1; Message-ID: <01KIXL1Q1P08984WQP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>.   > > $ DIR/COLUMNS=1d > 8 > Hmmm.... I prefer (to get the directory spec included) >  > $ DIR/NOHEAD > 8 > but is there a way to supress the "Total of XX files." > line other than to use pipe ?o > * > $ pipe dir/nohead | search sys$input ";"  + Of course.  DIR/NOTRAIL.  From HELP DIR :-)A  	 DIRECTORY      /TRAILINGI           /TRAILING"         /NOTRAILING   ?      Controls whether trailing lines that provide the following '      summary information are displayed:e        o  Number of files listed  B I DO wish ALL of HELP would be like HELP FORTRAN and ALWAYS state F whether the option or its negation is the default.  HELP FORTRAN even G does this in the initial display as well as in the description of each hH command.  The Fortran HELP (and other documentation) is really nice.  I < even know a non-Fortran programmer who took up my suggestion   HELP FORTRAN CHAR ASCe  = to get a nice chart (formatted for 24 lines, of course :-) ).a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:53:51 +0530 = From: Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav.Tadimeti@signaltreesolutions.com>M$ Subject: doubts about using edit/TPUK Message-ID: <3BB00261FED5D41183FD00104B93C26002092288@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>E  J This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand< this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.  ( --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary$ Content-Type: multipart/alternative;1 	boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C21385.3248B8C0"o  ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C21385.3248B8C0p Content-Type: text/plain;  	charset="iso-8859-1"n+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   
 Hello all,=20O0 I have a some of questions about EDT and TPU.=20  4 0. WHich of the two is most flexible & vresatile?=20 1. Does EDT have box selection?t@ 2. I have problems using TPU. I have a file whose contents are =	 displayedp below:I ------------------------------------------------------------------------=- ---- ---- #type hello.txt,G hello world. This is a BAD BAD world. How do I get out of this place? =n Deaf dumbI and blind you keep on pretending. Everyone is expendable and no one has =. a> real f riend. sI ------------------------------------------------------------------------=? ---- ----  / when I open TPU, the same file looks like this: I ------------------------------------------------------------------------=w ---- ---- H I and blind you keep on pretending. Everyone is expendable and no one has =  ae real  =A22;80HI [End of file]=A222;H=A2;7m Buffer: HELLO.TXT                            =M        |& Write | Insert | Forward =A2m=A223;31H
 =A2K=A223;31Hh3 Don't understand command: set column=A2;H=A216B=A2K 1                                              =A2K 3                                                =A2K 5                                                  =A2KyB                                                    =A2K=A24A Set = noclipboardt Set clipboard=A2KtC  Set function keys nomotif              Set function keys motif=A2Ky?  Set find nowhitespace                  Set find whitespace=A2Kt9  Set scroll off                         Set scroll on=A2K D  Set scroll smooth                      Set width=A2K=A222;H=A2;7m = Buffer:c3 $CHOICES$                To see more, use: | Prev hiI ------------------------------------------------------------------------=u ---- ----  E I am using reflection software for terminal emulation. DO I need to =t make any specific changes?=20   Thanks & regards      ' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C21385.3248B8C0y Content-Type: text/html; 	charset="iso-8859-1"u+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printableI  1 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">o <HTML> <HEAD>9 <META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =t charset=3Diso-8859-1">@ <META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
 5.5.2653.12">s* <TITLE>doubts about using edit/TPU</TITLE> </HEAD>- <BODY>  $ <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Hello all, </FONT>B <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>I have a some of questions about EDT and TPU. = </FONT>x </P>  I <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>0. WHich of the two is most flexible &amp; vresatile? =D </FONT>69 <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>1. Does EDT have box selection?</FONT> F <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>2. I have problems using TPU. I have a file whose =$ contents are displayed below:</FONT> <BR><FONT =nI SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=r -----------------</FONT>) <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>#type hello.txt</FONT>>G <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>hello world. This is a BAD BAD world. How do I get = # out of this place? Deaf dumb</FONT>mB <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>and blind you keep on pretending. Everyone is =) expendable and no one has a real f</FONT>d" <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>riend. s</FONT> <BR><FONT =tI SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=  -----------------</FONT> </P>  = <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>when I open TPU, the same file looks like =r this:</FONT> <BR><FONT =lI SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=e -----------------</FONT> <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>H</FONT>iB <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>and blind you keep on pretending. Everyone is =6 expendable and no one has a real&nbsp; =A22;80H</FONT>7 <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>[End of file]=A222;H=A2;7m Buffer: ='I HELLO.TXT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=cI sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=tI sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =t- Write | Insert | Forward =A2m=A223;31H</FONT>u' <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>=A2K=A223;31H</FONT>y2 <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Don't understand command: set = column=A2;H=A216B=A2K</FONT> <BR><FONT =-I SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=sI sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=gI sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=aE sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =A2K</FONT>  <BR><FONT =oI SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=oI sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=nI sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=eG sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =y =A2K</FONT>u <BR><FONT =hI SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb='I sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb= I sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=sI sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=  sp;&nbsp; =A2K</FONT>a <BR><FONT =eI SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb= I sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb= I sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb= I sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=c% sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =A2K=A24A Set =tI noclipboard&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=fI nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=r nbsp; Set clipboard=A2K</FONT>, <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;Set function keys =I nomotif&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp="0 ;&nbsp;&nbsp; Set function keys motif=A2K</FONT># <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;Set find =pI nowhitespace&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=a5 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Set find =s whitespace=A2K</FONT>d% <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;Set scroll =lI off&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=yI sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=o sp; Set scroll on=A2K</FONT>% <BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;Set scroll =oI smooth&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=uB &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Set =  width=A2K=A222;H=A2;7m Buffer: =I $CHOICES$&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb= A sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To see more, use: | Prev h</FONT></P>d  
 <P><FONT =I SIZE=3D2>---------------------------------------------------------------=e -----------------</FONT> </P>  ? <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>I am using reflection software for terminal =a: emulation. DO I need to make any specific changes? </FONT> </P>  - <P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks &amp; regards</FONT>d </P> <BR>   </BODY>  </HTML> ) ------_=_NextPart_001_01C21385.3248B8C0--l  * --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary--   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:39:40 GMTo. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)( Subject: Re: doubts about using edit/TPU5 Message-ID: <wRiO8.237714$305.3289124@news.chello.at>s   In article <3BB00261FED5D41183FD00104B93C26002092288@exdel01.del.mgsl.com>, Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav.Tadimeti@signaltreesolutions.com> writes:t  >This message is in MIME format.  . Don't post in MIME. This is a text only group.   >Hello all, . >I have a some of questions about EDT and TPU. >e2 >0. WHich of the two is most flexible & vresatile?   TPU of course.J This has been discussed in great length here umpteen times. Even recently.  2 TPU is a utility from which one can build editors.1 EVE is thre prime example. LSEDIT is another one.u  G EVE/LSEDIT do support DECterms at various sizes (while EDT only support D 80x24 and 132x24) and have mouse support with or without X11 supportJ (/INTERFACE=MOTIF). While EDT isn't able even to restore the scroll regionK (it restores it to 24 lines and not turn if off - making it silly on biggereO DECterms). So, the general consensus here seems to be "Use EVE with EDT keypad"o    >1. Does EDT have box selection?   No.q  I >2. I have problems using TPU. I have a file whose contents are displayed0 >below:E
 >real  2;80H@) >[End of file]22;H;7m Buffer: HELLO.TXTb# >Write | Insert | Forward m23;31H@
 >K23;31H  K Seeing parts of escape sequences let me believe that your terminal emulatora, is not as good (configured) as it should be.  6 Start with a SET TER/INQ and do a SH TER afterwards... -- h Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGERa% Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:36:19 -0400l- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> ( Subject: Re: doubts about using edit/TPU, Message-ID: <3D09C722.D109E8C2@videotron.ca>   > Kesav Tadimeti wrote:nK > and blind you keep on pretending. Everyone is expendable and no one has af > real  2;80HN > [End of file]22;H;7m Buffer: HELLO.TXT                                   |$ > Write | Insert | Forward m23;31H  H Your terminal on VMS is set to have 8 bit control characters, while your7 terminal or the line is set to 7 bits escape sequences.M  4 on VMS $SET TERM/NOEIGHTBIT will solve your problem.   OR  K Make sure your terminal emulator supports 8 bit escape sequences as well aseN the line itself (whether RS232, LAT or TELNET). Since you see the , I suspectL that your line does allow 8 bit characters without chopping one bit off, andV therefore the VT emulator is probably the one not recogniziong 8 bit escape sequences.  N (one character <CSI> instead of two <ESC> and [ , so it saves on bandwidth and increases speed.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:02:51 +0300v* From: Mike Rechtman <rechtman@tzora.co.il>( Subject: Re: doubts about using edit/TPU* Message-ID: <3D09CD5B.5010108@tzora.co.il>  E Start by setting your emulator to emulate a VT320, VT220, orVT420 in tG increasing order of preference (yes, personally I do prefer a 220 to a 0F 320.) and at OVMS command level doing $SET TERMINAL/DEV=<whatever> or 
 $SET TERM/INQu   Mike   Kesav Tadimeti wrote:    > Hello all,/ > I have a some of questions about EDT and TPU.s > 3 > 0. WHich of the two is most flexible & vresatile?e! > 1. Does EDT have box selection? K > 2. I have problems using TPU. I have a file whose contents are displayed o > below:S > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >  > #type hello.txt-H > hello world. This is a BAD BAD world. How do I get out of this place?  > Deaf dumbuJ > and blind you keep on pretending. Everyone is expendable and no one has 
 > a real f
 > riend. sS > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- k >  > 1 > when I open TPU, the same file looks like this:.S > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- a >  > H>J > and blind you keep on pretending. Everyone is expendable and no one has  > a real  2;80H! > [End of file]22;H;7m Buffer: lI > HELLO.TXT                                   | Write | Insert | Forward   > m23;31Hw > K23;31Hn/ > Don't understand command: set column;H16BKm1 >                                              K 3 >                                                Ke5 >                                                  K ? >                                                    K4A Set r4 > noclipboard                        Set clipboardKC >  Set function keys nomotif              Set function keys motifKt? >  Set find nowhitespace                  Set find whitespaceKx9 >  Set scroll off                         Set scroll onKrG >  Set scroll smooth                      Set widthK22;H;7m Buffer: f5 > $CHOICES$                To see more, use: | Prev hs > S > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- d >  > K > I am using reflection software for terminal emulation. DO I need to make u > any specific changes?n >  > Thanks & regards >  >      -- e  & New to c.o.vms? allow me to recommend:6 http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~rechtman/post_hlp.htmE ---------------------------------------------------------------------eE Usual disclaimer: All opinions are mine alone, perhaps not even that.n? Mike Rechtman                            *rechtman@tzora.co.il*hE Kibbutz Tzor'a.                          Voice (home):(972)-2-9908337eC    "20% of a job takes 80% of the time, the rest takes another 80%"oE ---------------------------------------------------------------------n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:02:51 +0100c( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>( Subject: Re: doubts about using edit/TPU) Message-ID: <3D09CD5B.82CBF6A1@127.0.0.1>    Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:4 > >0. WHich of the two is most flexible & vresatile? >  > TPU of course.L > This has been discussed in great length here umpteen times. Even recently.  D Matter of opinion. Which gobbles most system resources, particularly> important if you don't have many free ones to start with, TPU.  H I'll draw this analogy. If you want a pair of scissors, TPU is the swiss army knife.:  F While it does have scissors, it also has lots of other things that mayG get in the way, and you also have to carry around with you when wantingh one simple function.  D EDT being older also supports older standards in a better way, whichE partly explains why you're seeing the difference. Perhaps if TPU weremH more understanding of line mode and 7 bit environments with all flavoursH of terminals (more than SMG understands) then maybe I'd be a little moreG appreciative of it. The reliance on the DO key does restrict its use onnE some terminal emulators. Pressing CTRL-ALT-F6 with one leg in the airn isn't my idea of easy to use.e  G When speaking about TECO, you have the iron foundry upwards of creatinghD those scissors to the specification required. If you need a serratedE edge, it is yours to command. TPU cannot edit a disk drive, TECO can.   4 > TPU is a utility from which one can build editors.3 > EVE is thre prime example. LSEDIT is another one.    Can't build TECO :-p  I > EVE/LSEDIT do support DECterms at various sizes (while EDT only supportnF > 80x24 and 132x24) and have mouse support with or without X11 supportL > (/INTERFACE=MOTIF). While EDT isn't able even to restore the scroll regionM > (it restores it to 24 lines and not turn if off - making it silly on biggervQ > DECterms). So, the general consensus here seems to be "Use EVE with EDT keypad"D  E When did you realize you had to start wearing spectacles? 48 lines byd0 132 is more of a novelty than any practical use.  E While the EDT keypad function is fair, it doesn't support the simpler  way of construction EDT macros.r  a" > >1. Does EDT have box selection? >  > No.r   Write a macro.  fK > >2. I have problems using TPU. I have a file whose contents are displayed 	 > >below:L > >real  2;80HT+ > >[End of file]22;H;7m Buffer: HELLO.TXTn% > >Write | Insert | Forward m23;31Hm > >K23;31H > M > Seeing parts of escape sequences let me believe that your terminal emulator . > is not as good (configured) as it should be. > 8 > Start with a SET TER/INQ and do a SH TER afterwards...   Well we agree here at least :-)a   -- a( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:45:18 -0400w1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> ( Subject: Re: doubts about using edit/TPU2 Message-ID: <3D09D74E.993B3B97@firstdbasource.com>   JF Mezei wrote:1 >  > > Kesav Tadimeti wrote:mM > > and blind you keep on pretending. Everyone is expendable and no one has au > > real  2;80HP > > [End of file]22;H;7m Buffer: HELLO.TXT                                   |& > > Write | Insert | Forward m23;31H > J > Your terminal on VMS is set to have 8 bit control characters, while your9 > terminal or the line is set to 7 bits escape sequences.  > 6 > on VMS $SET TERM/NOEIGHTBIT will solve your problem. >  > OR > M > Make sure your terminal emulator supports 8 bit escape sequences as well aspP > the line itself (whether RS232, LAT or TELNET). Since you see the , I suspectN > that your line does allow 8 bit characters without chopping one bit off, andX > therefore the VT emulator is probably the one not recogniziong 8 bit escape sequences. > P > (one character <CSI> instead of two <ESC> and [ , so it saves on bandwidth and > increases speed.  C But with todays networks is less of an issue than even 5 years ago.e   -- l Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163 7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.comd Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)n 704-236-4377 (Mobile)-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:09:31 -0400n2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>( Subject: Re: doubts about using edit/TPU. Message-ID: <3D09EB0B.43AE2591@mindspring.com>   Peter LANGSTOEGER wrote:  I > EVE/LSEDIT do support DECterms at various sizes (while EDT only support=F > 80x24 and 132x24) and have mouse support with or without X11 supportL > (/INTERFACE=MOTIF). While EDT isn't able even to restore the scroll regionM > (it restores it to 24 lines and not turn if off - making it silly on bigger2 > DECterms).  ...   0 The complaint about EDT not restoring the scroll. regions is true, but fairly easily remedied by) wrapping EDT inside a .COM procedure that , does know how to restore the scroll regions. I always did just that.n  . I'd post the critical escape sequence if I had+ my old DCL command procedure library handy,i- but I don't. I believe it was the "SET SCROLL * REGIONS" command with *NO* parameters, but1 it might instead have used parameters bigger than; any window I ever employed.   - Editors are just like operating systems. Some-) you love, some you hate, and some you can-- take-or-leave. I *LOVED* EDT; it's one of ther+ two things I miss about VMS (with the other ) being $ SEARCH /HIGHLIGHT). I never could01 stand TPU (and any of its "personalities") except1& for viewing files (in Read-Only mode).   Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 08:05:01 -0700& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan)E Subject: Fastest CD-R or CD-RW capabilities for burning under OpenVMSx= Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0206140704.3241bb7e@posting.google.com>N  E It appears we're going to be doing a fair amount of archiving to CD-R C disks in order to better preserve data currently stored on up to 14lE year old DAT archive tapes that are slowly becoming faulty.  The test A systems are an MV3100 with a Yamaha 4416, works OK at a max of 2XmE using CDRECORD and a PWS600au with a Yamaha 6416 on a KZPAA SCSI cardE! that ran at 6X with 100% success.>  E Given the amount of data we'll be archiving, I'm looking at getting anF faster burner; this was triggered by a Q announcement of a 40x/12x/40xD unit (IDE only, unfortunately) for use on the PWS600au.  I'd like toD find out what the fastest rates others have managed to burn CD-Rs onE VMS Alpha systems, and what drives they used in doing that.  Also, if?C an IDE burner is in fact usable on the 600au (enhanced version withn? bootable IDE CDROM drive), which of those would be recommended?>   Thanks   Rich JordanF CCS    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:41:12 GMT- From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG-I Subject: Re: Fastest CD-R or CD-RW capabilities for burning under OpenVMSk0 Message-ID: <00A0F731.9C42B042@SendSpamHere.ORG>  f In article <cc5619f2.0206140704.3241bb7e@posting.google.com>, jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) writes:F >It appears we're going to be doing a fair amount of archiving to CD-RD >disks in order to better preserve data currently stored on up to 14F >year old DAT archive tapes that are slowly becoming faulty.  The testB >systems are an MV3100 with a Yamaha 4416, works OK at a max of 2XF >using CDRECORD and a PWS600au with a Yamaha 6416 on a KZPAA SCSI card" >that ran at 6X with 100% success. >pF >Given the amount of data we'll be archiving, I'm looking at getting aG >faster burner; this was triggered by a Q announcement of a 40x/12x/40xrE >unit (IDE only, unfortunately) for use on the PWS600au.  I'd like to3E >find out what the fastest rates others have managed to burn CD-Rs onpF >VMS Alpha systems, and what drives they used in doing that.  Also, ifD >an IDE burner is in fact usable on the 600au (enhanced version with@ >bootable IDE CDROM drive), which of those would be recommended? >K >Thanks  >> >Rich Jordan >CCS   Rich,p  E I replaced my firmware brain-dead Yamaha 4416 with a YAMAHA CRW2200S.bC This unit allows me to mount CDs on VMS unlike the old Yamaha 4416.bD It boasts some pretty good figures for burn speed and I've used themE with CDRECORD at these higher speeds without ever creating a coaster.K   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM&            p5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" &   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:12:20 +0200&E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>b+ Subject: Re: HP MPE to HP-UX customer plans + Message-ID: <3D09CF94.C2607BFE@mediasec.de>p  D > If it were me, especially considering how inexpensive (realtive toG > the value of business data being lost) while I still had the originalpE > machines, programs and data, I would write programs to read the old&? > and write it out at the highest available accuracy in ASCII. b  = That has its own problems, well known since FORTRAN II times.b  H > I'm actually surprised that none of the vendors courting other peoplesI > business has written a generic program that can take a data descriptionF+ > and handle this conversion automatically.i  4 That's XML for you. It has, again, its own problems.   	Jan   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:06:08 -0600 (MDT)S" From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>* Subject: Interesting approach to marketingG Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0206140659100.26562-100000@athena.csdco.com>e  4 http://www.sun-vbots.com/cd-html2/comic2/page04a.htm  / Either you are with Sun or you are a Carnibyte!b   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:50:25 -0500 (CDT)b? From: "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>&. Subject: Re: Interesting approach to marketing< Message-ID: <200206141350.g5EDoPFB009976@cryptofortress.com>  8 On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> wrote:5 >http://www.sun-vbots.com/cd-html2/comic2/page04a.htm& >p0 >Either you are with Sun or you are a Carnibyte!  % Accoring to the bottom of the page...   > "SUN INTERNAL CONFIDENTIAL FOR SUN CHANNEL PARTNERS, SUN SALES' REPRESENTATIVES, SUn SYSTEM ENGINEERS".e  G Oh, read some more (if you can stand it)... I wonder if some of this is . based on arguments between Andrew and Rob. :-)     Doc. -- i6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net_   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:57:30 GMT-, From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org>. Subject: Re: Interesting approach to marketing? Message-ID: <e8qO8.107817$6v2.4193339@twister.southeast.rr.com>e   Even more interesting...  ; http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph/?host=www.sun-vbots.com0  H The site www.sun-vbots.com is running Microsoft-IIS/5.0 on Windows 2000.     --   Kenneth Farmer http://www.Tru64.org http://www.OpenVMS.org http://www.LinuxHPTC.com      / "John Nebel" <nebel@csdco.com> wrote in messageiA news:Pine.OSF.4.21.0206140659100.26562-100000@athena.csdco.com...  >s6 > http://www.sun-vbots.com/cd-html2/comic2/page04a.htm >l1 > Either you are with Sun or you are a Carnibyte!a >i >y   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:00:26 -0400o2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>D Subject: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same?. Message-ID: <3D09F6FA.5AE88126@mindspring.com>  ; ZDnet has a very, very long posting about Tandem "returning ? to its HP roots". I haven't read the whole article yet, but one @ quote that jumped out at me was of the Tandem founder discussing; how Tandem would be a better fit inside HP than it ever was? inside Compaq.  2 Gee, that sounds just like Deja Vu all over again!   Here's the complete article:  ,   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-935814.html   Your thoughts?   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:02:05 -0400i2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>H Subject: Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same?. Message-ID: <3D09F75D.7F0C6D81@mindspring.com>  3 Posting a few "Talkbacks" might be helpful as well!g (Bob, ignore this reply!)A  . >   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-935814.html   Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 10:21:48 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)iH Subject: Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same?3 Message-ID: <KcnDYBdEmq7F@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  c In article <3D09F6FA.5AE88126@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:o= > ZDnet has a very, very long posting about Tandem "returning A > to its HP roots". I haven't read the whole article yet, but oneSB > quote that jumped out at me was of the Tandem founder discussing= > how Tandem would be a better fit inside HP than it ever wasN > inside Compaq. > 4 > Gee, that sounds just like Deja Vu all over again! >  > Here's the complete article: > . >   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-935814.html >  > Your thoughts? >  >    	One very odd comment:  * http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-935814.html  M "We've been lusting after their compilers for years," Nist said. "On Sept. 5,tN the day after the merger was announced, my compiler people wanted to go across. the street" to talk to the HP compiler teams.   = 	What was wrong with Digital/Compaq compiler teams?  From allvA 	indications they make excellent compilers.  "lusting after theirb> 	compilers for years"  doesn't make a whole lot of sense (from 	an external viewpoint).   				Robm 	t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:48:33 -0400a% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> H Subject: Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same?/ Message-ID: <ugkb3mbjq5i753@news.supernews.com>l  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:KcnDYBdEmq7F@eisner.encompasserve.org...e? > In article <3D09F6FA.5AE88126@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidtg% <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:d? > > ZDnet has a very, very long posting about Tandem "returning-C > > to its HP roots". I haven't read the whole article yet, but oneeD > > quote that jumped out at me was of the Tandem founder discussing? > > how Tandem would be a better fit inside HP than it ever wase > > inside Compaq. > > 6 > > Gee, that sounds just like Deja Vu all over again! > >-  > > Here's the complete article: > >-0 > >   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-935814.html > >k > > Your thoughts? > >- > >- >- > One very odd comment:- >-, > http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-935814.html >nL > "We've been lusting after their compilers for years," Nist said. "On Sept. 5,I > the day after the merger was announced, my compiler people wanted to go  across/ > the street" to talk to the HP compiler teams.2 >1> > What was wrong with Digital/Compaq compiler teams?  From allB > indications they make excellent compilers.  "lusting after their? > compilers for years"  doesn't make a whole lot of sense (from  > an external viewpoint).  >   E Didn't Compaq send it's compiler teams to Intel when it killed Alpha?    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 12:53:40 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)oH Subject: Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same?3 Message-ID: <xid3lQvF6YlD@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  W In article <ugkb3mbjq5i753@news.supernews.com>, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> writes: : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:KcnDYBdEmq7F@eisner.encompasserve.org...d@ >> In article <3D09F6FA.5AE88126@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt' > <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:g@ >> > ZDnet has a very, very long posting about Tandem "returningD >> > to its HP roots". I haven't read the whole article yet, but oneE >> > quote that jumped out at me was of the Tandem founder discussing-@ >> > how Tandem would be a better fit inside HP than it ever was >> > inside Compaq.R >> >7 >> > Gee, that sounds just like Deja Vu all over again!b >> >! >> > Here's the complete article:e >> >1 >> >   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-935814.htmlh >> > >> > Your thoughts?h >> > >> > >> >> One very odd comment: >>- >> http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-935814.html- >>M >> "We've been lusting after their compilers for years," Nist said. "On Sept.n > 5,J >> the day after the merger was announced, my compiler people wanted to go > across0 >> the street" to talk to the HP compiler teams. >>? >> What was wrong with Digital/Compaq compiler teams?  From all C >> indications they make excellent compilers.  "lusting after theirc@ >> compilers for years"  doesn't make a whole lot of sense (from >> an external viewpoint). >> > G > Didn't Compaq send it's compiler teams to Intel when it killed Alpha?u >   + 	That is why I was careful to requote this:i  , 	"lusting after their compilers for years"    9 	What you are referring to happened not quite a year ago.h   				Roby   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:08:14 -0400o From: G Everhart <ge@gce.com>b" Subject: Linus' comments about VMS& Message-ID: <3D0A22FE.5000606@gce.com>  8 I have to wonder if Linus last saw VMS at, say, V2 or V3> back when max filename size was 9.3 characters, all uppercase?< That would tend to make a unix person unhappy. That was also: before DCL acquired many of its control constructs so that: constructing loops and the like was rather a pain and many8 system commands were compat mode stuff so you got to use1 DCL except where you had to use PIP, and so on... ? and you might not even have had a good fullscreen editor unlesst9 you knew where to get a copy of VTEDIT and knew somethingi< about how to use it. If nobody ever bothered to show him how? to shorten commands with symbols, and how to define these (many 8 casual VMS users never saw this) VMS would have seemed a7 verbose, pedantic system with many oddball limitations.x  D Even during the 1990s there were plenty of folks who had no idea howB to define a foreign command, and the learning of assign vs. defineF is to some a conceptual trap. There are equivalent traps in other OSs,E but a casual approacher to VMS back in that era would have noted many F warts (and would not yet have seen the security fixes that began to beG serious by V4.4 or so, and may if unlucky enough have lived through the - hideous XQP corruption bugs of 4.0 and 4.1...p  E My take is that someone who has not seen VMS on an alpha probably hasvI too old an impression to be useful. I might equivalently make disparagingsH remarks about Unix based on experience with V6 back on the old pdp11/70,F back when the unix filesystem had monstrous fragmentation problems andK disk drivers had comments in them along the lines of "we'll just ignore anylI errors that occur because we can't figure out ECC". (yes, I read a numbers of these back then.)  J Old comments like those are not useful to those uninterested in going back" to the old Teletype console era...   Glenn Everhart   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:35:02 GMTe2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>4 Subject: Re: Looking for Unix commands to do VMS DCL2 Message-ID: <aimO8.16$Kl6.360469@news.cpqcorp.net>   Fabio,  J At the European Technical updates in April, Brad McCusker did a session on0 COE and Unix portability.  You may want to visit, http://www.openvms.compaq.com/tud/index.html  
 Warn Regards,B Sue:  ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in messagee: news:20020612134914.18613.qmail@web20207.mail.yahoo.com...
 > Check at >t > www.bosbc.comh >  >r	 > Regardsl >  > FC2 > --- Arthur Cochrane <cochrane@encompasserve.org> > wrote:3 > >     I am a VMS system manager but to broaden my  > > worth I want to learnl5 > >     Linux/UNIX. I have installed Red Hat Linux on  > > one of my PCs at home and 2 > >     on an Alpha workstation at work, but I use > > another Alpha with VMS0 > >     installed for my real work of VMS system! > > management. What I would likeh7 > >     is to define symbols that are Unix commands fore > > VMS commands, i.e.8 > >     pwd:==show default. Also, maybe some programs to > > do VMS things but with2 > >     UNIX style commands. Grep for search as an > > example. I have VILE for a6 > >     vi editor (just need to start using it, I love > > TPU/EDT). If I could atw8 > >     least start using UNIX syntax that would help in > > some transition. I7 > >     understand Unix and the file system but gettingu > > use to the commands is6 > >     the next hurdle I think I need now. In DCL you > > use SHOW so look at theT2 > >     status of a lot of items, (show user, show > > system, show network, show0 > >     default, etc.) but in Unix each of these! > > commands is a different verb. 5 > >     The same with SET, (set process, set default,o > > file, etc.) To save me5 > >     some work is there a good resource that would  > > have a command file I 6 > >     could copy to my login.com to set up some good > > symbols? Are there some 7 > >     command procedures to emulate some of the basicf > > Unix commands? Best 7 > >     programs to do Unix commands on VMS? This way I  > > can do my work on VMSn8 > >     but learn Unix commands also. Thanks in advance. > >q > >     Arthur CochraneL > >a > >o> > stop_spamcochrane@stop_spamEisner.Encompasserve.orgstop_spam" > >     Remove all stop_spam above >m >r > =====t > ========================== > Fbio dos Santos Cardoso > OpenVMS System Manager > Rio de Janeiro - Braziln > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br > ========================== > 4 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!?2 > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.como   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 10:56:16 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)e8 Subject: Marvelous EV7 system available for a test drive= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206140956.13a3498e@posting.google.com>n  B http://www.testdrive.compaq.com/ now has a 2-processor EV7 system.  H Unfortunately for readers of this ng, this one's running Linux, not VMS.: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:23:58 +0200 ' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>a5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... ( Message-ID: <3D09C43E.6BA1C741@spam.not>   David Jones wrote: > S > In message <3D093CB0.636C84E@spam.not>, Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> writes:n > >Stuart Fuller wrote:xL > >> Most of the "user-hostile" comments about Unix come from Windows users. > >aK > >I was referring to the time when UNIX was introduced. The complaints areaK > >still the same: cryptic command names, unlogical command names, problemsu > >with the shell syntax.d > J > The the material for the classic "UNIX-HATERS Handbook" was drawn from aK > mailing list started in the late 1980's (i.e. pre-Windows) by disgruntledr > LISP programmers.1  E Got me. But I learned UNIX long before I read that book and was more WB than surprised to find all complaints still valid besides ev. the C problem of network traffic caused by X11 because networks are much s more powerful today.   > > > David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929/ > Ohio State University        |      Internet: N > 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu< > Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu > 3 > Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.    -- C? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, t@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence/   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 11:55:11 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)r5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...n, Message-ID: <aecliv$2q1t$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  = In article <cf15391e.0206131212.4095fa2c@posting.google.com>,o4  keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:o |> bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0206121853.b640909@posting.google.com>...1F |> > I posted recently in comp.os.linux.advocacy and got this response5 |> > from what appears to be no one other than Linus.g |> f? |> All I can say is I'm embarrassed on behalf of the entire VMSp
 |> community.e |> a) |> Linus Torvalds is certainly no moron,    $ That is totally a matter of opinion.  H |>                                       and he's done (and continues to. |> do) a lot of good for the Unix community.    F How exactly did re-inventing the wheel, badly and dividing the effortsF of the Opensource Unix community along political lines do any good for the Unix Community??  E |>                                           They just have differents/ |> priorities and needs than the VMS community.  |> sI |> It'll be hard to get Unix folks to acknowledge the unique capabilitiess& |> of VMS  with this type of approach.  H Trust me, serious Unix people know what VMS is, what it can do and whereH it fits into the picture.  Much more damage is done by this notion, very8 prevalent here, that anything that isn't VMS is garbage.   bill   -- uJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   0   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 12:10:27 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon).5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... , Message-ID: <aecmfj$2q1t$4@info.cs.uofs.edu>  8 In article <7%9O8.8319$9b.534561@typhoon.austin.rr.com>,4  LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie) writes:5 |> Richard Banks (rbanks_@_arel_com_au.nospam) wrote:u |> :F |> : VMS ONLY runs on Alphas - you have to have an Alpha to use VMS.   |> : g |> VMS still runs on VAXes.5   Quite well, thank you!!    ;-)   bill   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   P   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 12:09:45 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) 5 Subject: RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... , Message-ID: <aecme9$2q1t$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  T In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660785@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>,*  "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes: |>H |> Yep, poor taste, but even more than that, one would expect someone ofG |> his stature and position to understand that there has never been noreI |> will there ever be a single OS that is the best for every requirement.   I What position and stature??  He was a third rate CS student when he wrote0H Linux and I have seen nothing to show an advancement.  Hint:  he doesn'tH write most of what people call Linux today.  Read what Andrew TannenbaumE had to say about Linux when it first started gaining popularity.  Nowi: there's an opinion from someone with position and stature.   |> d/ |> With these postings, assuming they are his -lE |> - Not that he will likely care, but Linus took a huge step down iny# |> credibility from my perspective.-  . He couldn't have gone any lower in my opinion.  G |> - It tells me that he is not likely to have an open mind to feedbackZ( |> that does not come from a UNIX focus.  G He (and most of his followers) have pretty much ignored decades of UnixeJ research and development in order to re-implement everything from scratch.H Even the IP stack, where 99% of other IP stacks are based on the BerkleyI stack, for good reasons.  Seems like he doesn't have much of an open minde' to feedback from the Unix focus either.n  F |> - Far worse - imho, it does not bode well for Linux futures to haveH |> someone like this at the wheel. Having one person only driving kernel> |> stuff will start to show the weaknesses with this approach.  D Like I said above, he doesn't write the largest percentage of Linux.F Considering how much time he spends traveling around and shmoozing, heF may actually write none of it.  Of course, this could be a good thing.  @ Linux will survive.  Companies like IBM will even ship their ownB kernels if that is what it takes to produce a reasoinable product.A It is only sad that more of these people like IBM and even RedHatsA didn't back something like FreeBSD where they would have had morea control of their own.s   bill   -- DJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 05:49:02 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...N= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206140449.249f8f87@posting.google.com>l  } Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com> wrote in message news:<7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E04139E4E@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>...  > > -----Original Message-----: > > From: bob@instantwhip.com [mailto:bob@instantwhip.com] > F > You might have tried "what is the longest recorded uptime for a UnixG > system; and for a Linux system?"  This might drive an important pointtE > home, or it might piss them off.  The point is that, no matter how lF > much you like or hate the user-interface, VMS is well designed, and D > stable.  In my opinion it excels in this area much more than Unix,- > which is itself light-years beyond windows.t >   D I did that with a follow up response to his responses, but I did notD post it here, and he did not respond further ... I have told him andF even people here on this board about my 17 years + without ever havingB a VMS OS crash, but there are people here that don't believe that,B and these are vms users!  It is obvious he doesn't understand VMS.A He is still comparing Vaxes instead of COE Alpha VMS ... the mostnA ignorant point he made was when he said "VMS is only for DB's and B multiusers" ... da!  Isn't that called centralization?  Isn't thatA where everyone is headed like I have been predicting, back to thej? mainframe, because it is cheaper than running 80,000 box farms?dC He obviously has only the single user in mind, just like Micro$oft,a? and that in itself will put linux in the same box as windoze, a  sigle user/client environment!   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 05:56:56 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...3= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206140456.5d57ec8b@posting.google.com>o  v keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) wrote in message news:<cf15391e.0206131212.4095fa2c@posting.google.com>...n > bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0206121853.b640909@posting.google.com>...E > > I posted recently in comp.os.linux.advocacy and got this response 4 > > from what appears to be no one other than Linus. > > > All I can say is I'm embarrassed on behalf of the entire VMS > community. > G > Linus Torvalds is certainly no moron, and he's done (and continues to E > do) a lot of good for the Unix community.  They just have differento. > priorities and needs than the VMS community. > H > It'll be hard to get Unix folks to acknowledge the unique capabilities% > of VMS  with this type of approach.u< > ----------------------------------------------------------< > Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org  E Embarrassed about what?  I have been sticking up for VMS and fighting6E with these ignorant so called computer geniuses for a while now, withsC no help from you, to show the superiority of VMS over windoze/unix/ D linux garbage ... and to me, Linus is ignorant when it comes to VMS,G esp. the "VMS is just for db's and multiusers" ... well, that is called>B centralization, and that is where everyone is headed, and it seemsC Linus has developed linux to compete w/Micro$oft, which means linuxv> will end up like windoze, a single user/client environment ...H and the VMS community wants I believe security, reliability, clustering,A real time, scalibility ... are you saying the unix crowd doesn't?.F What does unix offer that VMS doesn't?  Quite frankly, VMS offers more% than windoze/unix/linux ever will ...    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 05:59:33 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...h= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206140459.310339dd@posting.google.com>   t "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<7zbO8.226935$Kp.20395686@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...@ > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message9 > news:cf15391e.0206131212.4095fa2c@posting.google.com...I7 > > bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in messageo; >  news:<d7791aa1.0206121853.b640909@posting.google.com>...oG > > > I posted recently in comp.os.linux.advocacy and got this responsee6 > > > from what appears to be no one other than Linus. > >c@ > > All I can say is I'm embarrassed on behalf of the entire VMS > > community. > H > What took you so long?  Bob's an embarrassment every time he opens his > mouth, here or elsewhere.  >  > - bill  @ and you are an embarrassment to the VMS community ... Linus bad-; mouthed your RMS, and instead of rebutting him on the linuxrB site, you post here with your pants down, nothing to say about it!   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:22:34 GMTs* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...eB Message-ID: <u6mO8.237781$Gs.20777058@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagea7 news:d7791aa1.0206140459.310339dd@posting.google.com...V   ...s  B > and you are an embarrassment to the VMS community ... Linus bad-= > mouthed your RMS, and instead of rebutting him on the linuxeD > site, you post here with your pants down, nothing to say about it!  K Fuck off, Bob:  you're an idiot.  If you don't think so, try taking a poll.i   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:42:44 -0700) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)t5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... = Message-ID: <55f85d77.0206140642.78f40836@posting.google.com>   t "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<7zbO8.226935$Kp.20395686@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...@ > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message9 > news:cf15391e.0206131212.4095fa2c@posting.google.com...6( > > Linus Torvalds is certainly no moron > M > I agree.  But he *is* a Unix bigot and clearly blind to significant aspects H > of OS design and utility.  Not that we're completely unacquainted with% > bigotry in our neck of the woods...e >   C That is an interesting thought. Like others here, I would initiallylC apply the label "moron" to someone who would base a new OS on UNIX..@ Shows zero imagination, lacks technical competence and stinks of "making a buck".  F But, what this really "smells of" : I think at some stage in his life,F when learning about computers, he was (rudely and told so by staff who@ may have been in charge) denied access to something under VMS he@ wanted to explore further, then later given open access to UNIX.  < Just curious, did he as a kid design and *build* (yes with a? soldering iron and circuit board) computers based on Z80 CPU's,s8 6800, 6809 or whatever when he was a kid? include a disk9 controller,  and really get into the "total mindframe ando' experience" as many here I assume have?   5 I don't personally hold much respect for him based on: what I have *read* so far.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:06:48 +0200 ' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>n5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...o( Message-ID: <3D0A0688.5422890A@spam.not>   Bill Gunshannon wrote: > ? > In article <cf15391e.0206131212.4095fa2c@posting.google.com>, 6 >  keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:q > |> bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote in message news:<d7791aa1.0206121853.b640909@posting.google.com>... H > |> > I posted recently in comp.os.linux.advocacy and got this response7 > |> > from what appears to be no one other than Linus.e > |>J > |>                                       and he's done (and continues to. > |> do) a lot of good for the Unix community. > H > How exactly did re-inventing the wheel, badly and dividing the effortsH > of the Opensource Unix community along political lines do any good for > the Unix Community??  ' Unfortunately, I have to agree on that.   G > |>                                           They just have differento1 > |> priorities and needs than the VMS community.  > |>K > |> It'll be hard to get Unix folks to acknowledge the unique capabilitiest( > |> of VMS  with this type of approach. > J > Trust me, serious Unix people know what VMS is, what it can do and whereJ > it fits into the picture.  Much more damage is done by this notion, very: > prevalent here, that anything that isn't VMS is garbage.  H To put it in a more correct form: most computer professionals that know H VMS understand that *UNIX* is garbage and *Windoze/XY* is garbage also. F If there were an OS that offers what VMS offers those people wouldn't F name it garbage. I'm wondering whether I see this time coming. So far . we nothing, niente, nada, nirwana besides VMS.   >  > bill >  > --L > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |@ > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   -- -? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, m@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencet   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:00:23 -0500n+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>i5 Subject: RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...-J Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E04139E53@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;r 	charset="iso-8859-1"    > -----Original Message-----0 > From: Brass Christof [mailto:welcome@spam.not]  < > I was referring to the time when UNIX was introduced. The  > complaints are t; > still the same: cryptic command names, unlogical command t > names, problems  > with the shell syntax.  8 Well, they make sense if you know MULTICS, and like the ' abbreviated names for the commands ;)  w  : Actually, though, this is a problem.  I can only assume it< was a "space saving" measure to implement only the shortened= versions of the commands.  They must have saved a kilobyte of > disk space or something in the beginning, by not having all of) those extra commands with longer names :)8   Chris   ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerp Amdocs - Champaign, IL  > "Confutatis maledictus, flammis acribus addictus, voca me cum ; benedictis.  Oro supplex et acclinis, cor contritunt quasi h' cinis, gere curarn mei finis." -RequiemX  b --=_IS_MIME_Boundary) Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii. Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit: Content-Disposition: inlinea  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------n  C The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,   1 protected from disclosure, and may be privileged.   N The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)  L of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,  P you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of   ? this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful.    N If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately  > by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.  
 Thank you.  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------h   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary--   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:04:12 -0500e+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>o5 Subject: RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...dJ Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E04139E54@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;  	charset="iso-8859-1"    > -----Original Message-----0 > From: Brass Christof [mailto:welcome@spam.not]  ; > But he stated that *VMS* is mainly for "embedded usage".  > > Especially with your post it seems that he has a problem in 0 > understanding for what VMS is used in reality.  ; He said something like "large embedded," by which I assumeduA he meant things like assembly line control, scientific instrumentC< control, data gathering, etc, etc.  The kinds of things that% PDP-11s were so prominently used for.n   Chrish    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerb Amdocs - Champaign, IL  > "Confutatis maledictus, flammis acribus addictus, voca me cum ; benedictis.  Oro supplex et acclinis, cor contritunt quasi  ' cinis, gere curarn mei finis." -Requiemo  e --=_IS_MIME_Boundary) Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-asciin Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitV Content-Disposition: inlineu  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------a  C The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,   1 protected from disclosure, and may be privileged.l  N The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)  L of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,  P you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of   ? this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. S  N If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately  > by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.  
 Thank you.  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------;   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary--   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:26:59 -0500c+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>h5 Subject: RE: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... J Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E04139E55@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;r 	charset="iso-8859-1"f   > -----Original Message-----8 > From: bob@instantwhip.com [mailto:bob@instantwhip.com]  C > He is still comparing Vaxes instead of COE Alpha VMS ... the most8  C I'm not sure that's the point, either.  Many of his complaints worke the same on either platform.    C > ignorant point he made was when he said "VMS is only for DB's and D > multiusers" ... da!  Isn't that called centralization?  Isn't that  < Actually, I think the complaint may not be a valid complaint> about the system.  It occurs to me that Linus might just have @ a bit of trouble differentiating between system and application.  > (The Unix design does treat them very similarly, and I can see@ where he gets the "only for databases" stuff, since most of whatA will is still run on VMS machines has something to do with that.)i  ; Maybe he's just complaining about the lack of applications?s  A So no, there's no reason to equate databases with centralization,r> really, but again, that complaint isn't very well thought out.? (Take a look at Christof Brass's comment about how difficult it > is to design an OS which is only good for one or two things ;)  ? The real shame is that it shows that he didn't put much thoughto? into his answer.  I'm sure if he had, he could have come to ther? conclusion that the system must be capable of other things too.c? It doesn't make it seem like his prejudice against VMS has mucht basis in reality.f  C > where everyone is headed like I have been predicting, back to thefA > mainframe, because it is cheaper than running 80,000 box farms?o  A I haven't priced either one.  I hope you're right, but even if ith7 is cheaper, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. ;)w  E > He obviously has only the single user in mind, just like Micro$oft,,  A Every single user is the most important, if you ask them.  That'su@ the mark of a good time-sharing system, to make sure that every - user get their responses fast enough to suit.g  A > and that in itself will put linux in the same box as windoze, at  > sigle user/client environment!  > I would be happy to see Unix as a network client.  It would be= much better than windows, which is normally used now, if for h= no other reason than that it's more efficient.  I would very e> much enjoy working on a VMS system with a Unix client.  (A VMS& client would be nice too, of course ;)   Chrisa    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developerh Amdocs - Champaign, IL  > "Confutatis maledictus, flammis acribus addictus, voca me cum ; benedictis.  Oro supplex et acclinis, cor contritunt quasi a' cinis, gere curarn mei finis." -Requiem@  t --=_IS_MIME_Boundary) Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-asciiu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit7 Content-Disposition: inlinet  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------C  C The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,i  1 protected from disclosure, and may be privileged.t  N The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)  L of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,  P you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of   ? this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. n  N If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately  > by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.  
 Thank you.  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------v   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary--   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:37:11 -0400h2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...d. Message-ID: <3D0A1BB7.5B19D39A@mindspring.com>  9 > Well, they make sense if you know MULTICS, and like thew' > abbreviated names for the commands ;)u  6 I find it helps to think of computer command languages4 as foreign languages. Jour = day and neither is more7 or less correct, in the absolute sense, than the other.a. So "remove" is just as correct as "DELETE" and4 "change default" is ust as correct as "SET DEFAULT".9 Now, just abbreviate to "rm", "DEL", "cd", and "SET DEF".     < > Actually, though, this is a problem.  I can only assume it> > was a "space saving" measure to implement only the shortened? > versions of the commands.  They must have saved a kilobyte ofM@ > disk space or something in the beginning, by not having all of+ > those extra commands with longer names :)a  6 I'm sure the core savings were considerable (back when7 these things were running on PDP-7s with, what, 4 or 8Kk: of 18-bit memory?), but I suspect that another substantial9 factor was the fact that a Teletype or Friden Flexowriterv< was the human interface. "ls -1" takes 1/2 a second to type;( "DIRECTORY /NOHEADER /NOTRAILER" takes a4 wee bit longer. (Yes, I *KNOW* you can abbreviate it1 somewhat.) And software people tend not to be the 7 world's best typists, so a short command is less likely ! to get hit by a "soft error". :-)    Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 11:50:15 -0600- From: frey@encompasserve.org (Sharon Guthrie)a5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...-3 Message-ID: <WL1$vRH4TfSd@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  o In article <7zbO8.226935$Kp.20395686@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:f > @ > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message9 > news:cf15391e.0206131212.4095fa2c@posting.google.com...i >>' >> Linus Torvalds is certainly no morong > M > I agree.  But he *is* a Unix bigot and clearly blind to significant aspects H > of OS design and utility.  Not that we're completely unacquainted with% > bigotry in our neck of the woods...s  H 	He may be *very* sharp, but I think he's gotten himself rutted into an O academic/development environment and hasn't come into the real world much.  As  L someone else pointed out, his saying that VMS is primarily used in embedded L systems is pretty wild.  All of us here know that VMS is used frequently in E banking, stock floors (well, until recently), emergency dispatching, .) manufacturing, business financials, etc. e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:52:14 +0100jU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>05 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...r0 Message-ID: <aed7g3$7p1$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Christopher Smith wrote:   >>-----Original Message-----8 >>From: bob@instantwhip.com [mailto:bob@instantwhip.com] >> > + > Wow, this is amusing -- where to start...  >  >  > G >>Are you?  Why would one not like the bulletproof security, the worlds4G >>best clustering, the best realtime platform, the most scalable OS outv8 >>there, the worlds fastest jvm?  Why are you trying to  >> > B > I'm not sure I'd be bragging about the jvm just yet.  Not saying@ > that it isn't the fastest, of course, but just that this is a A > relatively new development, and it may be outclassed by anotherrB > jvm in the future, especially if development slips on it, as has, > been known to happen with VMS software. :/ >     7 It isn't the fastest except in Bobs fevered imaginationi6 and thats the Tru64 JVM, Compaq have never run SPECjbb1 on OpenVMS which is a major release behind Tru64.:  7 A number of vendors provide systems that deliver betterj8 per CPU performance than the best Compaq can offer which is currently the ES45.  6 Perhaps Bob was confused by Compaq calling the JVM the "Fast" JVM..   Regardsi Andrew Harrisond   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:27:30 GMTr* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...gB Message-ID: <6IpO8.239228$Gs.20908593@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  ? "Atlant Schmidt" <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote in messagen( news:3D0A1BB7.5B19D39A@mindspring.com...; > > Well, they make sense if you know MULTICS, and like the:) > > abbreviated names for the commands ;)k >u8 > I find it helps to think of computer command languages > as foreign languages..  L Most computer users (especially less expert ones), however, find it helps toF think of computer command languages as their own native tongue.  WhichC (along with at least attempts at regularity across functions plus asG well-defined abbreviation algorithm) is what DCL is all about (though IuJ don't remember whether it extends these mechanisms to languages other than	 English).b   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 06:54:32 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)G Subject: New picture virus threatens data ... better dust off VMS mail!e= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206140554.2967bd9f@posting.google.com>w    New Virus Infects Picture Files  Associated Press   k    h 3:15 p.m. June 13, 2002 PDT C WASHINGTON -- A new virus threatens to strike one of the Internet'ss9 most common and useful activities: sharing family photos.a  @ The malicious program is the first ever to infect picture files,C though it is not currently attacking computers. Called "Perrun," iteD worries researchers because it is the first to be able to cross fromF infecting a program to infecting data files, long considered safe from
 such threats.s  F "Our concern is more for what might be coming," said Vincent Gullotto,< head antivirus researcher at McAfee Security, which producesB top-selling antivirus software. "Potentially no file type could be safe."  E As with any computer threat, the best way to protect a computer is toa  have updated antivirus software.  E McAfee researchers received the virus from its creator. Virus writersnD typically send their new work to researchers as well as fellow virusE writers as a way of bragging about their skills. Gullotto declined tocD identify the author. McAfee antivirus software can detect and remove Perrun.   ? Perrun is known as a proof-of-concept virus, and does not cause1E damage. But Gullotto said he fears other virus writers may use Perruny3 as a template to create a more destructive version.>  B Until now, viruses infected program files that can be run on theirF own. Data files, like movies, music, text and pictures, were safe from@ infection. While earlier viruses deleted or modified data files,# Perrun is the first to infect them.i  E Perrun inserts portions of the virus code into the picture file. WhendB the picture is viewed, it can infect other pictures. If the authorE wished, the virus could delete files on the computer or perform otheru	 mischief.f  C The virus still needs modifications to become dangerous, because itIE arrives as a program file that can be attached to an e-mail. Security ; experts always warn against opening programs sent as e-maili attachments.  B Once run, the file installs a program onto the victim's hard driveB that can infect pictures. When a computer user clicks on a pictureC file with the extension .JPG a common picture file found on the Webr> the picture is infected before it appears. Because the pictureA displays normally, Gullotto said, the victim may not know there'se anything wrong.o  E The normal display of the picture may give this new family of virusesiF a leg up on its predecessors. Two viruses that hit computers last yearE promised to show pictures of tennis star Anna Kournikova and a "Naked|@ Wife." Even though they failed to show the photos, they infected> millions of computers and clogged up e-mail systems worldwide.  E Other viruses, such as variants of the infamous LoveLetter program ordF SirCam, destroyed picture files or sent them and other files to random recipients.m  ? In its current form, an infected JPG file cannot infect another @ computer on its own. But Gullotto said there's no reason a virus< writer couldn't make the picture itself able to infect other
 computers.  C That evolution should make computer users think twice about sendingm= pictures or any other media over the Internet, Gullotto said.   ! Copyright  2002 Associated Press4   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:12:46 +0100tU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>  Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesa0 Message-ID: <aed563$71c$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:   * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > @ >>in terms of throughput. And thats where Alpha failed it simply@ >>has not delivered the kinds of throughput that POWER based and> >>SPARC based systems are capable of and hasn't for some time. >> > J > But would you agree that if you exclude the wildfire class machines, theJ > midrange ES and lowrange DS alphas have provided very good performance ? >     B As I said ealier the ES40 and 45 are competitve boxes, the DS lessA so because you are now in a market space which is more interestedeD in size, cost, heat, none of these are DS strong points. Compaq haveB never produced anything to compete with the likes of the Sun NetraA X1/T1/V120's or the HP A500's and later servers. And at the pricesF point of a DS you can get a Sun F280 which is a faster more expandable box.    L > Also, one must now start to look an EV7 based "wildfires" to see if MarvelI > will make a big difference in the interconnect and allow greater systemn( > performance relative to the CPU speed. >     E This was the claim made for WildFire when the criticism being leveledgD now at WildFire was being leveled at the GS140/8400. Until publishedD benchmarks other than SPECint and SPECfp are available for the boxes  there is little more to discuss.    O > Digital is expected to release a new generation of EV7 alpha chip and systemscN > "soon". Will this compete against an existing generation of SUN, or will SunD > also be unveiling a new generation of SPARC/systems also "soon" ?  >     = I cannot say because we don't yet know what the EV7 boxes are > capable of when you try running an app on them. However At the> moment WildFire is not remotely competitive when compared with2 F3800 to F15000's so HP have a big catch up to do.  ; And of course Sun does have a Server and Processor roadmap,c9 the current servers support US III CPU's and will supportD: US IV. What you may have noticed over the years however is8 that I have never relied on some estimate of performance6 for a future Sun Server or Sun CPU to suggest that Sun4 may or may not be competitive. Sadly this is not the7 case with most of the Alpha protagonists on this group, . hence why we are having the discussion at all.    K > Do you acknowledge the possibility that EV7 based "wildfires" may provideeL > performance that SUN could not match with its current generation systems ? >     ; Of course, but as I said, WildFire is a long way from being 3 competitive now, so the new systems need to be muchn more competitive.   : Its also a mistake to assume that EV7/Marvel will actually7 be competitive from the day its available no matter howt5 fast it benchmarks. Its a new platform and ISV's will 6 need to qualify it, expect this to take up to 6 months2 after the first release. If you cannot run the app you cannot compete.s   Regardsn Andrew Harrisonn   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:35:47 +0100-U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>i Subject: Re: No new Alpha saless0 Message-ID: <aed6h8$7co$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rudolf Wingert wrote:    > Hello, >  > here some more numbers:g > G > IDEAS Top Performers - SAP - Standard Application Benchmark Two-tier e > Client/Server Release 4: >   > Rank	Title				Steps		User	CPUs' >   4	Sun Fire 15k			1.242.000	4.100	76 1 >   6	Compaq AlpfaServer GS320	  823.000	2.720	32e > F > Andrew, as you can see the GS320 with less then the half of CPUs (32I > versus 76) will have 2/3 of the power of the Sun Fire 15K. In the otherc> > direction two GS320 will have the power of 1.5 Sun Fire 15k. >     * You havn't been paying attention have you.  + The Sun used SAP 4.6 the Compaq SAP 4.0 and-, as have been discussed earlier in this group) 4.6 requires more resources that 4.0. Fors- the SD benchmark itself this equates to about + 70% more CPU resource. When you factor this8+ in you find that the Sun is delivering more ) thoughput per CPU than the Alpha and thisp$ is without factoring in scalability.  + Or put another way the GS320 would be at ani) even bigger dissadvantage on a throughputi- per CPU basis if the Sun was only being askedS+ to deliver the same thoughput as the GS320.n   Regards  Andrew Harrisona   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:53:24 +0100w( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP) Message-ID: <3D09AF04.68BDF127@127.0.0.1>l   John Smith wrote:aL > Precisely correct, and necessary - both from a business security viewpoint$ > and from an advertising viewpoint. > L > Run an ad on TV like that around several different types of shows to catchF > the target audience - senior IT managers, CIO/CTO/COO/CFO/CEO types.  H Which is exactly why mass advertising should be considered. The media goH to almost extreme lengths to categorize the viewers, and in essence, youG do NOT need to capture a big proportion (percentage) of certain groups,n< precisely due to the amount of investment control they have.  B e.g. Joe Public in the street with some purchasing responsibility.F Several hundred of him could only invest a tiny proportion of what Mr.D CEO of some other corporation could, and you only need to get to far less CEO's than Joe Publics.  H This is why I believe Mark Gorham is wrong to say it will not happen, HeF should be supporting it, and for these reasons. He's in computing, not> media so I can understand why he doesn't necessarily think its
 important.  B As a real example in the UK, There is a couple of IRRs Independent? Regional Radio, commercial stations called JazzFM. (well jazzfmyG actually). They have even made their way onto digital satellite. ListenwE to the advertising, larger company cars of the luxury status, and, toiF give them some due, I've heard Compaq advertising, as well as the IBMs of this world.  F Target. Your CEO reclining in his leather seats in and air conditionedE bubble sat in a line of traffic is far more likely to be listening toiD this station than the Kiss or Galaxy brand of dance music orientatedH commercial radio stations (but we won't argue what constitutes 'dance').  H Similar rules apply to TV audiences. In the UK, the ITV news at 10, tookH a very downward turn, but they've rectified that, and, despite the BBC'sG standing, the ITV news formula does appeal. Also now consider satellite F channels, cheaper advertising here, and in some cases an easier targetB but possibly more sporadic. Your CEO is more likely to switch on aE Discovery channel than Living (women's interests), and also at a timerE when the kids have gone to bed when the cartoon channels are switched  off.  ? So there is such a thing as targeted advertising on mass media.i  D Are you an A, B or a C* ? If you know what that means, then you knowC what I'm talking about. Advertising costs (certainly in the UK) aretG better than they have been, competition and the removal of the monopolymG has meant even the big players have reviewed their advertising rates intH the UK due to losses they've incurred by being too ambitious and pricing themselves out the market.  H I know it's off topic, I know I've said it before, and I'll probably sayH it again. The media is not something you watch or listen to, you use it.  " *Yes I know it's more complicated. -- c( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot come   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:27:12 +0100-U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>_ Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP0 Message-ID: <aed615$78i$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Keith Parris wrote:i   > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<ae755q$7cb$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > I >>Hang on your origional point was about UNIX not the whole Server market  >> > D > Unix workstations generate only a small amount of revenue comparedD > with servers.  That's why Sun had to move from being a workstationE > vendor in the late '80s to making most of its money selling serversD > today. > F > But it's a moot point because I was just providing some hard data in# > response to your contention that:  >     , Actually you wern't, you were providing data( that was provided to you by HP. The data, you have appears to refer to Q4 2001 numbers" and not Q1 2002 which are now out.  * These make much less attractive reading if, you are HP. The dire warnings in the article+ you refer to have allready been superceeded  by the market.     > P >>If Sun maintains higher volumes than HP, then Sun will be in a better position# >>to keep Sparc alive than HP will.  >> > G > ALL the operating systems HP sells will contribute to IA-64 volumes. eD > SPARC only runs Unix.  And Sun's total revenues are only about 1/4& > those of The New HP ($18B vs. $78B).    2 Sure but almost all of Sun's revenues are based on/ SPARC, none or almost none of HP's revenues areo2 currently based in IA-64 and the combined revenues4 of the divisions of HP that are intending to deliver4 IA-64 based systems into the space that Sun occupies0 in the market are there or there abouts equal to Sun prior to the merger.  2 HP has to hope that the process of merging and the2 process of product rationalisation builds on their/ customer base not depleats it otherwise Sun ands! IBM will have their market share.a   Regardst Andrew Harrisonh   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:30:58 +0000 (UTC)2 From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukP Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)+ Message-ID: <aecr6i$anm$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>e  a In article <468fgug5hi21e8sehmscp7uejrgg3kvf42@4ax.com>, jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> writes: C >On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:48:02 +0000 (UTC), david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukh >wrote:t >  >oI >>>Sure, but rather than have the CPU on each end process the encryption,mF >>>I thought IP/SEC was a better solution.  Offload all that work onto7 >>>something small, simple, and almost management-free.  >>>t >>K >>Yes VPNs are a solution. However they either require a box at each end torP >>handle the tunnel which is extra cost and also leaves a little gap at each endP >>where there is unencrypted traffic. Or you don't offload the CPU and have the O >>VPN software running on the systems themselves (almost required on the client Q >>side when using lots of widespread clients). In which case you need to have the.L >>VPN software you are using available and running on those machines you areL >>going to use - which again is generally another cost. Can you setup a VPN Q >>directly from a VMS box using IPSEC or any other VPN using any of the availablef >>TCPIP stacks ? >>O >>VPNs may also not work well with other networking components (IPSEC has majorrJ >>problems with NAT whereas SSH has no such problems). SSH is pretty much O >>available for every system and is generally free. It seems to be pretty much o% >>the defacto standard at the moment.eI >>VPNs seem to work best when you need a dedicated link between groups ofe >>machines at two remote sites.t >> s > F >VPN is something different from IP/SEC.   IP/SEC is security built-inG >to the IP cards.  And I believe that my $150 Linksys router (NAT) willVB >allow IP/SEC to flow through (though I have no way to test this). >e >d  K I beg to differ. IPSEC is one way of implementing a VPN. It is not the onlye way.D From RFC2401 (ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2401.txt) section 3.1 :-   "     IPsec can be used toqF    protect one or more "paths" between a pair of hosts, between a pairH    of security gateways, or between a security gateway and a host.  (TheD    term "security gateway" is used throughout the IPsec documents toH    refer to an intermediate system that implements IPsec protocols.  ForC    example, a router or a firewall implementing IPsec is a securityo    gateway.)   "s  , To my mind that pretty much describes a VPN.    K IPSEC will not be able to provide end-to-end encryption between systems if  4 NAT is implemented on devices between those systems.K The only way around this is to use tunnel-mode IPSEC rather than end-to-endaI IPSEC. In which case the NAT devices at each end provide the IPSEC tunnel 3 rather than the end devices behind the NAT systems.w   ie    E system A -- NAT --- IPSEC --------------  IPSEC  --- NAT -- System B i   andl    = system A -- NAT --- IPSEC --------------  IPSEC  -- System B r    	 will works     buts  E system A -- IPSEC --- NAT --------------  NAT  --- IPSEC -- System B -   and-  ; system A -- IPSEC --- NAT -------------- IPSEC -- System B    
 will not worku  N The problems are to do with the embedded IP addresses in encrypted packets and- I believe the Authentication header checksum.c    H For further details see RFC2709 (ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2709.txt) in particular section 6 :-   "- With theG    exception of Realm-Specific IP, end-to-end IP network level securitytE    assured by current IPsec techniques is not attainable with NATs ineD    between. The IPC-NAT model described in this document outlines anB    approach by which network level security may be obtained within    external realm. "s: The IPC-NAT model it describes is using tunnel-mode IPSEC.        
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:56:17 +0100u From: EdL <edl@euronet.nl>0 Subject: Re: PWS500au PowerStorm 3D30 DECWindows+ Message-ID: <B92FDEC0.153B1%edl@euronet.nl>r   Hi,e  ) Still having problems with screen update.u; VMS version is 7.1-2, I have installed all ECO's for Motif. * I have tried several settings on the 3D30.   Regards, Edwin w      ; in article 0033000067643824000002L042*@MHS, WILLIAM WEBB atr0 WWEBB1@email.usps.gov wrote on 11-06-2002 22:29:   >  >> Hi, >> .E >> I have the following configuration a PWS500au with PowerStorm 3D30 " >> card and a 14" digital monitor. > A > Here's a link to an Ask the Wizard article about 3D30 settings.e > = > Without knowing the details of what monitor you're using, Ii, > can't tell you how the 3D30 should be set. > 4 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/wiz_2041.html > I >> Now having troubles with DECWindows, the screens are corrupt and greenl >> lines appears over the text.r > & > What version of VMS are you running? > And DECwindows/MOTIF?r8 > There *have* been DW-MOTIF ECOs- perhaps you need one. > 0 > Again, there's not enough information to tell. >  > PRODUCT SHOW HISTORY >>  D >> In OPA0: console mode (without DECWindows) I cannot use edit/edt.H >> The screen updates verys slow and line for line. And I cannot use the4 >> keypad. Trying to set term/vt100 was no solution. > H > You're not going to get a VMS command-line editor running except on an4 > ANSI type terminal device and OPA0:, alas, is not. > F > Outside of getting your DECwindows/MOTIF running properly, the otherB > option is to hook a VT up to the serial port of the 433 and then' > execute a SET CONSOLE SERIAL on OPA0:B >  > HTHp >  > WWWebb >  >> l >> Please any help is welcome. >> k >> Regards, Edwini >  > edl@euronet.nl   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:17:09 +0100 U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>fA Subject: Re: Request for path balancing (Was: Re: Carly was here) 0 Message-ID: <aed5ea$72h$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:  q > In article <27vN8.207307$%o.18579187@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  >  > J >>Unfortunately, the only corporation in any reasonable position to createK >>such a system would be VMS's owner.  Lots of luck.  And while open source N >>systems will undoubtedly over time acquire some of VMS's strengths, the UnixL >>I/O model has always resisted full-blown support for asynchrony, so unlessN >>some non-Unix-like open-source system should appear I wouldn't hold out much >>hope in that direction.y >> >> > % > 	Lacking asynchronous support, yep.- > > > 	Do you use AIO or multiple db_writers in an AIX environment; > 	with Oracle?  There is a school of thought that multiplei$ > 	db_writers works better than AIO. > 7 > 	PowerPath and/or SecurePath?  Sure, for broken OSes.  > C > 	You can layer features on an OS I suppose.  Fortunately, for VMSt? > 	path switching comes tacitly, naturally.  The only advantage > > 	of a PowerPath/SecurePath is load balancing.  So maybe thatH > 	is a future SET DEVICE enhancement?  Meaning via a SET DEVICE setting? > 	we can auto-switch if I/O reaches a pre-set threshold and/ort
 > 	"load"? >     > Any system that uses Veritas Volume Manager, HP-UX for example7 has a facility called DMP this provides path balancing.,  7 With Solaris you can use DMP if you are running VxVM orh the native Solaris facility.  * Bottom Line is most server OS's have this.   Regardsa Andrew Harrisond   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:42:27 GMT ? From: Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com (Jim Johnson) - Subject: Re: RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write)d0 Message-ID: <3d099c74.66681703@news.demon.co.uk>  D Opening it read/write unless you aren't allowed to would be my firstA suggestion.  It may be more complicated than just a $CHECK_ACCESSi@ call, though.  For instance, you may find that you can't open itC read/write even though you are authorized to due to existing shared E accessors.  That may force you to try to back off to read-only if theP read/write request fails.b  C How common will read-only access be?  If not common, and there's nolE issue with cluttering up the audit log with inappropriate file accessi> failure entries, it might be simpler to just try to $OPEN withD read/write access, and then fall back to a read-only attempt if that  fails with the right error code.  D Btw, if open is a side effect of the first access, how do you decide if it's ok to close the file?e   Jim.    , On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 23:16:51 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:t  L >Am writing this subsystem that accesses RMS (and other types of files laterL >on) files transparently (by field etc). It hides stuff such as $OPEN, FAB ,E >NAM, RAB etc from the calling program (which will be script driven).e >tO >So upon first attempt to access a dataset (RMS file), the interface will fetch H >that dataset's definition and file layout, open the file, setup various2 >structures, and then execute the actual request.  >n >hN >So, at the first access to the dataset when it is opened, I have no idea whatM >subsequent acesses will be done on that dataset/file. Is it possible to open L >it READ-only and then change it to READ/WRITE later on if I find out that I >also need to write to it ?, > M >If I $OPEN a file read only, and then need to switch it to read-write, it itsL >possible to do that without invalidating existing locks and the contexts ofL >the FAB and RABs ? Or is the only way to do do a $CLOSE and $OPEN and reset! >the current record context etc ?p > N >Would it be simpler to simply open read/write all files, unless $CHECK_ACCESSG >says that read/write is not possible and then only open it READ-only ?e   Jim Johnson0 Software Exploration, Ltd.) (remove '.nospam' from the reply address)p   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 04:25:21 -0400g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>u- Subject: Re: RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write)m, Message-ID: <3D09A86D.1455CD8D@videotron.ca>   Jim Johnson wrote:E > How common will read-only access be?  If not common, and there's noeG > issue with cluttering up the audit log with inappropriate file accessp@ > failure entries, it might be simpler to just try to $OPEN withF > read/write access, and then fall back to a read-only attempt if that" > fails with the right error code.  I Yeah, that sounds like the simplest answer. I may try to see how ALL-IN-1 ( deals with this by doing various audits.  F > Btw, if open is a side effect of the first access, how do you decide > if it's ok to close the file?p  I Files will be closed only at end of image, when a "dump_cache" command isuN issued, or when the library containing the dataset information is closed. (eg:= all files defined in modules in that library will be closed).d  G I might put in commands to specifically close one dataset, or later on,0J perhaps an "inactivity" timer where a file would be closed after a certain amount of time of inactivity.S   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 03:41 CDTw' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)-- Subject: Re: RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write)r- Message-ID: <14JUN200203413578@gerg.tamu.edu>:  H In article <slrnagisho.20b.danco@pebble.org>, danco@pebble.org writes...= }In article <3D09601A.4F2C575A@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei wrote:b } P }> So, at the first access to the dataset when it is opened, I have no idea whatO }> subsequent acesses will be done on that dataset/file. Is it possible to opencN }> it READ-only and then change it to READ/WRITE later on if I find out that I }> also need to write to it ?d } ; }How about defering the actual open until the first access?r }Can you get away with that? } ? }Or can you get away with multiple opens, one for read accessesrB }and one for write accesses (and carefully coordinate your locking1 }between the two so you don't deadlock yourself)?s }  }- Dan  ? On the readonly open you can just not lock anything: RAB$M_NLK..( Then coordinating locking is irrelevant.   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 15:23:43 GMT= From: jlw@psulias.psu.edu (j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818)bD Subject: Re: Secure HTTP client app buildable under OpenVMS/OpenSSL?+ Message-ID: <aed1pv$3b4@r02n01.cac.psu.edu>y  b >In article <KV6zy9jYGgE2@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kuhrt@encompasserve.org (Marty Kuhrt) writes:F >>Look around for cURL.  I did a "port" of it about a year ago, which G >>allows my Alpha running V7.3 to send posts to https: urls and receiveiH >>the results from a C program.  Someone recently said that they have a K >>more current version working, so you might want to check the comp.os.vms g >>archive on Google for cURL.e 	e@ 	I've used a more recent version prepared by the original porterF 	to VMS, Nico Baggus in the Netherlands.  Does exactly what I needed, F 	allowing my CGI scripts written in DCL to look like a secure browser @ 	connection to yet another web server running elsewhere.  Check    		http://cURL.haxx.se   B 	for information.  Nico's current release available thru that siteE 	is v7.9.5 dated 11 March 2002, which pretty well matches the versionlE 	that Nico sent me on 11 February, so I'm guessing that it's the sames	 	as mine.n  P +----"Never Underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of mag tapes"--+B | J.Lance Wilkinson ("Lance")		InterNet:  Lance.Wilkinson@psu.edu < | Systems Design Specialist - Lead	AT&T:      (814) 865-18189 | Digital Library Technologies		FAX:       (814) 863-3560a2 | 3 Paterno Library				"I'd rather be dancing..." B | Penn State University		    A host is a host from coast to coast,K | University Park, PA 16802	    And no one will talk to a host that's close C | <postmaster@psulias.psu.edu>	    Unless the host that isn't closep: | EMail Professional since 1978	    Is busy, hung or dead.P +---------"He's dead, Jim. I'll get his tricorder. You take his wallet."-------+9                 [apologies to DeForest Kelley, 1920-1999]r3 <A Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu">home page</a> sJ <a Href="http://perdita.lcs.psu.edu/junkdec.htm">junk mail declaration</a> --	/"\ 	\ /	ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN 	 X	AGAINST HTML MAILe 	/ \   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 15:35:18 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis): Subject: Re: Sun is on the way out!  Only HP and IBM left!. Message-ID: <3d0a0d36.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  K In article <aeb2eg$aqh$1@knossos.btinternet.com>, nospam@nospam.com says...U >  >s6 >"Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message= >news:ROLN8.195672$%y.18848494@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...  >>8 >> "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message: >> news:d7791aa1.0206120933.41610cfb@posting.google.com...< >> > I didn't say it, the Inquirer does ... guess we will'nt> >> > have poor Andrew around here anymore making bogus claims!/ >> > No wonder he is anxious to trash Alpha ...  >>J >> Learn to read, Bob.  The Inquirer also speculates that HP covertly used >theK >> quoted article to spread FUD:  if you believe the one, you really shouldr >> believe the other.p >iM >Well I believe it. Having worked with SUNs, my conclusion is that they don'to
 >really work.   G Wow, bold statement. I guess we'll start throwing them away after that  ? statement. Pity about all that continuous work without a hitch.e  
 Bah humbug...m   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 15:18:44 GMT0 From: snowball@hotmail.com (Aristotle SnowNasis)/ Subject: RE: tpc/ip file server for VMS systemst. Message-ID: <3d0a0954.0@mercury.planet.net.au>  @ In article <DJEIILNNMOFLAFBPGIEHOEDADBAA.rlfitch@peakpeak.com>,  rlfitch@peakpeak.com says... >sM >The primary goal is to provide a substantial increase in online file storagerK >while keeping  costs (hdwr and license) as low as possible.  DEC equipment L >is pricy! whereas an Intel/AMD system running BSD is not.  The tradeoff mayL >be in lowered performance via ethernet vs. direct SCSI access.  A secondary  O NFS is your best bet. I don't know if Linux or *BSD provide cacheing (as sun & aP hp do) as this does improve performance. If the NFS disk(s) are not involved is P some very heavy I/O then you should be alright. We've done what you are wanting M to do by using a second ethernet cable to a Unix disk server. Not too shabby.   K >goal is an alternative file backup system.  'Print services' is just icingt >but could improve things.  P As others have said, it is SO simple to set up a remote printer in VMS to spool 4 its queues to lpd on Linux/*BSD/any-unix. So easy...  K >Please don't let this digress (as so often happens) to a discussion of one0I >OS being better than another.  I have been a VMS fan (read bigot) for 16 E >years but I'm willing keep my options open and do what is necessary.s >t' >As noted earlier, here are some specs:tI >IP package info: "DEC TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS AXP Version V4.0 - ECOa3 >Level 5 on a DEC 3000 - M700 running OpenVMS V6.2"e >tH >What is needed is some help in understanding how to approach this. AlanM >Winston has suggested NFS (thanks) and I think that FTP might be a fall-backa >option.  P In "realtime" FTP is not really an option. If you want transparency then FTP is N definitely not the option. If you just want a storage repository, then FTP is  the answer.o  M I guess what you have to start with is understanding the version of NFS that uL 6.2 supports. I'm guessing it's v2 of NFS. As I understand it with Linux is P that its implementation of NFS v3 is buggy. As an option, Free/Net BSD would be O the better approach - heck even Solaris on Intel would be a very good approach.   M Next it's a matter of configuring VMS as the client and setting up your unix m; box as the server. Both of these are trivial moves, really.s  P It would also be wise to look at the traffic flow over the ethernet between the K two boxes (assuming one point-to-point). A lot of traffic on the route can e5 cause delays and retransmissions that are a bug-bear.m             >E
 >thanks much,u
 >Ransom Fitch  >c >s   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:40:32 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: unix historyd3 Message-ID: <QvBcVAX+Ja8n@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  W In article <13JUN200220320674@gerg.tamu.edu>, carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes: 1 > koehler@eisner.aspm.encompasserve.org writes...e > } G > }   Yeah, but if UNIX started with time in 1969, wouldn't it be epoche@ > }   196x?  Even epoch 1960 wouldn't have hit the sign bit yet. > H > You are asuming that the epoch that it started with is the one that it/ > still has now. This is probably not the case.a >   D    Yes, but my assumption is based on very simple evidence:  there's*    been no reason yet to change the epoch.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:06:30 +0100w( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: unix history.) Message-ID: <3D09EA56.DF0A816C@127.0.0.1>-   Bob Koehler wrote: > F >    Yes, but my assumption is based on very simple evidence:  there's, >    been no reason yet to change the epoch.  E Wasn't this picked, nothing to do with bit representation, but merely A that '69' implied 2069? Similar to PDP/RSTS when I used it at V7.     UNIX has only 67 years to go :-)   VMS has another 290 CENTURIES.  < I guessing and I could be wide of the mark, in which case...   -- n( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:16:38 +0000 2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> Subject: Re: unix historyo4 Message-ID: <20020614131638.B31522@eisenschmidt.org>   --XOIedfhf+7KOe/yw* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline,+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printables  I Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Nic Clews (sendspamhere@127.0.0.1) Wrote:  >=20" > UNIX has only 67 years to go :-) >=20  > VMS has another 290 CENTURIES. >=20> > I guessing and I could be wide of the mark, in which case... >=20 > --=20 * > Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences > nclews at csc dot com   L Actually most Unix flavors still use a 32 bit number for the date, so they'=E ll run out in 2038. From http://www.deepsky.com/~merovech/2038.html :u  L " UNIX calculates time in seconds since its birthday, GMT 00:00:00, Thursda=L y, January 1, 1970 C.E. The industry-wide practice is to use a 32-bit varia=L ble for this number (32-bit signed time_t). The largest possible value for =L this integer is 2**31-1 =3D 2,147,483,647 (over two billion) seconds after =L UNIX's birthday, which corresponds to GMT 03:14:07, Tuesday, January 19, 20=L 38. One second later, many UNIX systems may revert to their birthdate, or t=L o 20:45:52, Friday, December 13, 1901 (which corresponds to GMT 00:00:00 Th=L ursday, January 1, 1970 minus 2**31 seconds). Some reports claim the rollov=L er could even result in a system time of December 32, 1969 on some legacy s=	 ystems. "p  K I'm not worried - we've got 30 years to migrate everything to Inferno. =3D)    --=20s/ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>p6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenL  PGP Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.a= scD  PGP Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2  L FOO MANE PADME HUM: "Our first obligation is to keep the FOO counters turni= ng."   --XOIedfhf+7KOe/yw' Content-Type: application/pgp-signaturee Content-Disposition: inliney   -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----  Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (OpenBSD)i* Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org  @ iD8DBQE9Cey2H5fmozfjvvIRAi8/AJ96Az5mKO6R/hIsUmllVRaTwdTH3wCgqIQ2 OV9aPaRgnicTOFJD175VGWM= =5Nvpw -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----,   --XOIedfhf+7KOe/yw--   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:17:30 -0400S2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: unix history . Message-ID: <3D09ECEA.898151E7@mindspring.com>   Nic Clews wrote:  " > UNIX has only 67 years to go :-) >u  > VMS has another 290 CENTURIES.  2 Actually, much of the excrement's going to hit the< ventilator on Tuesday, January 19, 2038 at GMT 03:14:07 UTC.9 The next second, the clock spills over into bit <31>, and-4 we'll get to see how many C applications (on *MANY*,) *MANY* operating systems *INCLUDING* VMS)i. mistakenly treated time_t as a signed integer.   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:39:29 +0200tE From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>l Subject: Re: unix historyi+ Message-ID: <3D09F211.E417E0A1@mediasec.de>s  4 > Actually, much of the excrement's going to hit the> > ventilator on Tuesday, January 19, 2038 at GMT 03:14:07 UTC.; > The next second, the clock spills over into bit <31>, and>6 > we'll get to see how many C applications (on *MANY*,+ > *MANY* operating systems *INCLUDING* VMS)r0 > mistakenly treated time_t as a signed integer.  E No, the VMS time_t code has been modified to handle it as an unsignedk6 integer years ago. I've read the C RTL change notices.   	Jan   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:42:03 +0100a( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: unix history ) Message-ID: <3D09F2AB.FE71C112@127.0.0.1>    Atlant Schmidt wrote:  >  > Nic Clews wrote: > $ > > UNIX has only 67 years to go :-) > >s" > > VMS has another 290 CENTURIES. > 4 > Actually, much of the excrement's going to hit the> > ventilator on Tuesday, January 19, 2038 at GMT 03:14:07 UTC.; > The next second, the clock spills over into bit <31>, andi6 > we'll get to see how many C applications (on *MANY*,+ > *MANY* operating systems *INCLUDING* VMS)s0 > mistakenly treated time_t as a signed integer.  F Umph..VMS? I think I can quote from the article without being done for copyright...  B  o   The problem commonly known as the "Y2038 bug" has been fixed.=       The C run-time library time functions, which access the6>       current time using the OpenVMS time functions, have been@       corrected to handle times after 19-Jan-2038 3:14:07.  Data=       type time_t is defined on OpenVMS as an unsigned 32-bit,>       integer.   However, some of the functions which retrieveB       current time from the system and convert it to time_t format#       were using signed arithmetic.y  %       This fix affects the functions:o             o  decc$fix_time()           o  time()d           o  ftime()           o  gettimeofday()g           o  getclock()a  >      With this fix, DEC C RTL time functions will handle times-      successfully until 07-Feb-2106 06:28:15.a  ( So please exclude VMS from your list ;-)   -- r( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comw   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:54:17 -040022 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: unix historyt. Message-ID: <3D09F589.73D3D164@mindspring.com>   Nic Clews wrote:  > > ... and we'll get to see how many C applications (on *MANY*,- > > *MANY* operating systems *INCLUDING* VMS)o2 > > mistakenly treated time_t as a signed integer. >tH > Umph..VMS? I think I can quote from the article without being done for > copyright... >n> > ...With this fix, DEC C RTL time functions will handle times+ >  successfully until 07-Feb-2106 06:28:15.S >a* > So please exclude VMS from your list ;-)  4 I will freely stipulate to you that the DEC-supplied* components don't suffer from this problem.  1 But please note that I said "C applications", notI1 C Operating System services or C Run-Time Libraryt/ functions. There's plenty more C-code out there 4 that wasn't written by DEC (etc.); I'll bet at least1 a few lines of it runs on VMS *AND* treats time_td2 as a signed integer. And will probably still do so on January 19th, 2038.  , We could always bet a beer on it, payable on January 20th 2038. :-)   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:02:37 +0100r( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: unix history0) Message-ID: <3D09F77D.6D27DEBA@127.0.0.1>p   Atlant Schmidt wrote:s > 3 > But please note that I said "C applications", not 3 > C Operating System services or C Run-Time Library@1 > functions. There's plenty more C-code out theree6 > that wasn't written by DEC (etc.); I'll bet at least3 > a few lines of it runs on VMS *AND* treats time_tc4 > as a signed integer. And will probably still do so > on January 19th, 2038. > . > We could always bet a beer on it, payable on > January 20th 2038. :-)  9 Ah, now that's different [should have read the question].c  G If the bet is about programmers reading documentation, I'll buy you theh% beer now while I can still afford it!    -- r( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 14:40:15 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)l Subject: Re: unix historym, Message-ID: <aecv8f$304c$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  . In article <3D09ECEA.898151E7@mindspring.com>,5  Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:h |> Nic Clews wrote:o |> d% |> > UNIX has only 67 years to go :-)a |> ># |> > VMS has another 290 CENTURIES.p |> "5 |> Actually, much of the excrement's going to hit thec? |> ventilator on Tuesday, January 19, 2038 at GMT 03:14:07 UTC.-< |> The next second, the clock spills over into bit <31>, and7 |> we'll get to see how many C applications (on *MANY*,d, |> *MANY* operating systems *INCLUDING* VMS)1 |> mistakenly treated time_t as a signed integer.l  E Yes, it will.  A quick scan of Linux and FreeBSD shows it to be alongrB on both of them.  Because of commonality of much of the codebase IB would bet that OpenBSD and NetBSD are the same.  Hmmmm.  What does MSDN say??  :-)t   bill   -- IJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Jun 2002 14:46:48 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)l Subject: Re: unix history , Message-ID: <aecvko$304c$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  4 In article <20020614131638.B31522@eisenschmidt.org>,5  John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> writes:- |> lI |> I'm not worried - we've got 30 years to migrate everything to Inferno.  |> s  F I wouldn't put any money on Inferno, but it will be curious to see howF long people wait to address the problem.  Will this become another Y2KD where everyoine knows the problem but nobody does anything until the night before??    B Not to mention how many legacy systems without OS sources that areC still in use that can't be fixed. (I still wish DEC|Compaq|HP couldt? be convinced to release the Ultrix-32 sources so we could startpB fixing things there.  It's pretty sad to think that Ultrix-11 will" outlast Ultrix-32 in usefullness.)   bill   -- sJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:06:23 +0000 2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> Subject: Re: unix historyl4 Message-ID: <20020614160623.A18899@eisenschmidt.org>  R Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Bill Gunshannon (bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu) Wrote:0 > In article <3D09ECEA.898151E7@mindspring.com>,7 >  Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:t > |> Nic Clews wrote:k > |> "' > |> > UNIX has only 67 years to go :-)d > |> >% > |> > VMS has another 290 CENTURIES.  > |>  7 > |> Actually, much of the excrement's going to hit the)A > |> ventilator on Tuesday, January 19, 2038 at GMT 03:14:07 UTC.e> > |> The next second, the clock spills over into bit <31>, and9 > |> we'll get to see how many C applications (on *MANY*,o. > |> *MANY* operating systems *INCLUDING* VMS)3 > |> mistakenly treated time_t as a signed integer.s > G > Yes, it will.  A quick scan of Linux and FreeBSD shows it to be along D > on both of them.  Because of commonality of much of the codebase ID > would bet that OpenBSD and NetBSD are the same.  Hmmmm.  What does > MSDN say??  :-)> >  > bill  e From where I'm sitting, Solaris is fine, OpenBSD is not. I'm not sure about Net, but my guess is yes.   5 I'll get you for that MSDN comment, you just wait. =)-   > -- eL > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesF > bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. > University of Scranton   |C > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   a   -- a/ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>n6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenM  PGP Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.asc D  PGP Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2  O FOO MANE PADME HUM: "Our first obligation is to keep the FOO counters turning."e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:32:36 +0100 / From: "O-Dzin Tridral" <TridralO@Cardiff.ac.uk> 9 Subject: VMS as a example of disaster and fault toleranceo) Message-ID: <sd09c663.012@pobox.cf.ac.uk>t  M I would appreciate a few examples of VMS configurations designed to deal withg faults and disasters.o  M The reason for my query is that I have an opportunity to talk about improvinglO reliability of systems.  Although VMS usage is gradually decreasing at Cardiff, K I have a background of 14 years experience from a previous job and I know a   little of what it is capable of.  M Unfortunately I never played a system management role and so was not directlyoM involved in configuration.  However our system manager in my previous job hadJO been extremely successful in creating a number of VMS installations that served  the business very well indeed.  J Some real-world example of the service VMS provides to businesses would beN helpful, and some technical notes, if possible re clustering (how far apart doG you keep your cluster members, what do you use to link them) and volumen> shadowing (how far apart do you keep your shadow set members).  N The kind of server systems we use (netware, NT, Sun) provide databases, files,P disk space and print services.  The clients are mostly WNT, moving to XP at some stage.   Thank you for any information.   'o-Dzina   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 06:48:30 -0400e- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>v= Subject: Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault toleranceu, Message-ID: <3D09C9FC.4ECB7F8E@videotron.ca>   O-Dzin Tridral wrote:r > O > I would appreciate a few examples of VMS configurations designed to deal with  > faults and disasters.d   I built one 10 years ago.t  M 2 node running SWIFT software. Both with clustered. Building were about 1.5kmaI apart. They had installed a whole bundle of fibres to test IBM's then newsN software (which required one pair opf fibres per cdisk drive as I recall), and4 I got access to one pair. Put 10mpbs ethernet on it.  H Clusters were linked via ethernet, and used software volume shadowing toF mirror the application drives. At the time, the system drives were notL shadowed, but later they got budget approval to buy 2 extra drives for local; paging and then they were able to mirror the system drives.a  D Systems worked as a boot node (production system) and satellite node (backup/test node).   M The application was not cluster friendly, so it ran in production on a singlerL node, while the backup node was used as a test node. Two different directoryH trees allowed the 2 versions opf the application to co-exist on the sameN drives. The app was slightly modified to create its logicals in a group rather than system.  H All printer queues on the test system pointed to a single printer in theI development area. The production system had its queue pointed to the reale
 printers.   M In the event the production system went down, the backup would be rebooted aswF a boot node and in application-production mode (through a user defined8 parameter set in SYSBOOT> and used in SYSTARTUP_VMS.com.  M During boot, the production system would announce itself as the PROD service,-J and all DECSERVER terminal ports were defined as autoconnect to "PROD". So7 users would connect normally, not seing any difference.   = The vast majority of the work/logic was done during the boot.2  N There was some requirement for operator "thinking" to rebuild the cluster onceN the other node came back on-line to ensure that the right phsycal drives would be used as source of data.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:12:10 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>= Subject: Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault toleranceo) Message-ID: <3D09CF8A.FEA5D6C7@127.0.0.1>a   O-Dzin Tridral wrote:y > O > I would appreciate a few examples of VMS configurations designed to deal with- > faults and disasters.e  G There are two known cases of systems clustered where the destruction of>E the WTC in which one part of the systems were housed, the service did- not fail when the towers fell.  H Another instance where the restart was undertaken in less than 24 hours.  G I'm told this is still fairly sensitive issue, so you will not see thisiH advertised en masse. Ask your local education contact or VMS ambassador,> and they should be able to provide the references and details.  H Whitepapers are also available on the OpenVMS website, but I suspect theC cost of the hardware (FC) may be out of academic reach. However thec principles remain.   --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com3   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:44:08 -0400u0 From: "Alan Boyles" <alan.boyles@mindspring.com>= Subject: Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerancen/ Message-ID: <ugjlg17i54uo50@corp.supernews.com>   I Actually I believe there were 6 disaster tolerant VMS clusters in the WTCnL and 5 survived, the 6th was clustered between the 2 towers.  Cerner has beenG working with 2 types of disasater tolerant VMS clusters using there HNAIH software.  We are also actively selling Disaster Recovery services whichJ incorporate Disaster Tolerant clusters as a piece of this service.  HNA isJ based on Oracle so disaster tolerance using Oracle can be done in a coupleI of ways, we happen to be doing it with a standby database, which probablyeJ would not be construed as true disaster tolerance, however, we have provenJ in the Cerner Lab in Nashua a 50K Wide Area Disaster Tolerant cluster withI the help of Digital Networks and their ATM switches.  I can give you moreg specifics if you need them.4   Alan: "O-Dzin Tridral" <TridralO@Cardiff.ac.uk> wrote in message# news:sd09c663.012@pobox.cf.ac.uk...yJ > I would appreciate a few examples of VMS configurations designed to deal with > faults and disasters.  >eE > The reason for my query is that I have an opportunity to talk about,	 improving H > reliability of systems.  Although VMS usage is gradually decreasing at Cardiff,K > I have a background of 14 years experience from a previous job and I knowv ao" > little of what it is capable of. >eF > Unfortunately I never played a system management role and so was not directlyK > involved in configuration.  However our system manager in my previous jobi hadhJ > been extremely successful in creating a number of VMS installations that served  > the business very well indeed. >AL > Some real-world example of the service VMS provides to businesses would beG > helpful, and some technical notes, if possible re clustering (how fari apart doI > you keep your cluster members, what do you use to link them) and volumei@ > shadowing (how far apart do you keep your shadow set members). >vI > The kind of server systems we use (netware, NT, Sun) provide databases,w files,J > disk space and print services.  The clients are mostly WNT, moving to XP at somea > stage. >u  > Thank you for any information. >S	 > 'o-Dzina >o >m   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 08:15:22 -04007- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>h= Subject: Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance., Message-ID: <3D09DE58.64FD763E@videotron.ca>   Nic Clews wrote:I > There are two known cases of systems clustered where the destruction ofoG > the WTC in which one part of the systems were housed, the service dido  > not fail when the towers fell.  . One need not go that far to look at disasters.  J Consider the case of a data centre not far from a highway exit. During weeE hours of morning, a tanker truck exits the highway a bit too fast andnI overturns in the turn, spilling its fuel onto the street. Fire department0! orders evacuation of data centre.c  J The machines might still be running, but no operators to do anything. OnceK systems whose consoles can be accessed remotely from the backup data centrei remain usable.  K Unlikely ? You'd think so until you are woken up in the middle of the nightsH with that story. With the magic of the decservers, I was able to get theH operators in the backup data centre to become the OPA0: of the now emptyP production system and send out the nightly account statements to SWIFT partners.    L Another disaster: ethernet card on production machine fries. Backup node (inL satellite) freezes due to lack of quorum, application terminals and printersN freeze. But OPA0: console is fine. (I was away at the time).  Decision made toM bring down this node and bring up the backup node in production. (right one).lF Worked fine. Only problem is that until the former production node wasJ shutdown, it continued to receive SWIFT transactions since the synchronousJ port was still functional and the application still running fine. However,H those transactions were not registered on the backup node which had beenK kicked out of the cluster. This is something which had not been foreseen iniM the procedures since it resulted in some data loss (recoverable through SWIFT24 once they realised there were missing transactions).  M the morale is that you really need to go through every device on all machinesc8 and simulate its failure to see what the impact will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:56:54 GMTn2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>= Subject: Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerancea2 Message-ID: <qKlO8.14$tl6.345227@news.cpqcorp.net>   Dear O-Dzin,  G Here is a copy of an article that Cantor Fitzgerald (at the end of this J message).  Also if you would like to discuss please either send me mail orF call me at 603-884-2807.  For everyone's information, OpenVMS was veryL involved in the 9/11 disaster and immediately following. Some customers haveL chosen to do testimonials which are appreciated, we did not feel it would be3 appropriate to use this tragedy as a selling point.-  I Also here is the web link to testimonials, please check back since we aretF just waiting for a final legal approval for a new customer testimonialB related to 9/11 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/success-stories.html  
 Warm Regards, 
 Sue Skonetski( _______________M3 The following is from the Oct 29th issue of eWEEK =n  D http://www.eweek.com/article/0,3658,s%253D701%2526a%253D17239,00.asp  K October 26, 2001 eSpeed Lifts Cantor Fitzgerald By Stan Gibson  Forty-sevensG hours after the impact at the World Trade Center's North Tower took the7F lives of 733 Cantor Fitzgerald LP staff, including 150 IT workers, theL industry-leading bond company was once again taking orders for U.S. TreasuryH bonds. The reason: a well-conceived disaster recovery plan and skillful,I round-the-clock execution on the part of eSpeed Inc., a Cantor FitzgeraldtJ spinoff that handles all the company's IT infrastructure. "We were workingF on adrenaline and reacting on instincts," Joe Noviello, executive viceL president and CIO at eSpeed, said last week from his office at the company'sF Rochelle Park, N.J., data center and temporary headquarters for CantorL Fitzgerald. "The first week people slept in cots, sleeping bags and minivansH in the parking lot [of the data center]." "All the data and software wasG mirrored to Rochelle Park," said Noviello, adding that the facility wasnG established as a full-fledged data center, not just a recovery site, inCI February. Many Rochelle Park systems are primary, as well as backup. LikehK many companies in the WTC towers, the recovery activity was not confined tooG the United States. At Cantor Fitzgerald and eSpeed's London offices, ITlJ staff was similarly flat-out. "We stayed here [in our offices] till FridayK night," said Kara Kiewel, a spokeswoman for Cantor Fitzgerald and eSpeed ineE London. "People were sleeping on the floor. Then we all came =back ontJ Saturday. We wouldn't go; we couldn't go." A triangular architecture, withK points at the WTC, Rochelle Park and London connected by DS 3 pipes, worked-J exactly as planned. "When one corner went down, we never stopped trading,"G Kiewel said. "The system kept functioning in Europe and Asia." However,8J tasks that were handled in New York had to be carried out elsewhere-mainlyF in London. The clearing and settlement of trades was the main process.I What's more, many of Cantor Fitzgerald's New York-based clients had theiroE own infrastructures knocked out, either in the WTC or the neighboringtL financial district. These customers, which normally communicated with CantorJ Fitzgerald through its global private network, switched to Internet accessL instead, Kiewel said. The north tower impact took out eSpeed's operations onF the 103rd floor, which included some 250 Compaq Computer Corp. and SunH Microsystems Inc. servers running Windows NT, Alpha/OpenVMS and Solaris.H Noviello estimated that 1,000 workstations were destroyed. The floor wasJ also the center of software development activity, and many developers usedJ more than one desktop system, all of which were lost. Contrary to what oneK might expect, eSpeed is not on a hiring binge. "We have very good depth foreH the products we maintain. We will continue to grow as our business needsL require," said Noviello. eSpeed has 500 employees around the world, centeredF mainly in 23 hub locations. About 75 work in Rochelle Park. eSpeed hasK resumed trading in all the products handled by Cantor Fitzgerald and sistertG company Tradespark LP, a joint venture that specializes in energy-basedeK trading products. In fact, eSpeed is getting back to work to bring some newoH trading instruments online, Kiewel said. But after such dramatic events,H Cantor Fitzgerald will never be the same. For instance, the company willH rely even more on "The company is going to look different," Kiewel said.L "It's going to have more technology; the U.S. Treasury market has shifted toJ become dominantly electronic." "We're getting away from voice brokers. TheK way the technology held up in this situation has only reinforced our beliefoK in this direction," Kiewel added. Before Sept. 11, eSpeed was handling $250 H billion worth of trades per day. That total has not fully rebounded, butG Kiewel said Cantor Fitzgerald is still dominant in its key market, U.S.lL Treasury bills. Noviello advanced from chief technology officer to executiveG vice president and CIO upon the death of Fred Varacchi in the disaster.eK Varacchi was president and chief operating officer of eSpeed. That Noviello I is alive today is a matter of pure chance. He was set to go on a deep-seaiI fishing trip with some colleagues. It was canceled because of a hurricanetJ but not in time for him to go to work at the usual hour. He was lucky, butH there's no luck to Cantor Fitzgerald's being in business today. It was aL matter of planning and hard work. "People plan for disaster recovery. No oneK ever plans for the loss of equipment, facilities and resources. To bring up L our systems in 47 hours demonstrates our planning toward building concurrent< systems," said Noviello, adding, "we did not lose any data."    : "O-Dzin Tridral" <TridralO@Cardiff.ac.uk> wrote in message# news:sd09c663.012@pobox.cf.ac.uk...nJ > I would appreciate a few examples of VMS configurations designed to deal with > faults and disasters.i >gE > The reason for my query is that I have an opportunity to talk abouto	 improving H > reliability of systems.  Although VMS usage is gradually decreasing at Cardiff,K > I have a background of 14 years experience from a previous job and I know  a " > little of what it is capable of. > F > Unfortunately I never played a system management role and so was not directlyK > involved in configuration.  However our system manager in my previous job  had J > been extremely successful in creating a number of VMS installations that served  > the business very well indeed. >.L > Some real-world example of the service VMS provides to businesses would beG > helpful, and some technical notes, if possible re clustering (how fart apart doI > you keep your cluster members, what do you use to link them) and volumet@ > shadowing (how far apart do you keep your shadow set members). >pI > The kind of server systems we use (netware, NT, Sun) provide databases,H files,J > disk space and print services.  The clients are mostly WNT, moving to XP at some- > stage. >   > Thank you for any information. >m	 > 'o-Dzinr >a ><   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:12:51 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>@= Subject: Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerancenJ Message-ID: <nupO8.329624$t8_.201444@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  H I can't find it on Compaq's web site (help anyone?), but in the mid-90'sI there was a major fire at Paribas in Paris. HQ building burned out almostaJ 100%. They were using VAX'es at the time to do FX trading if memory serves< me correctly, clustered to a warm backup site outside Paris.  G Back in business the next morning from the backup site. No transactionso missing.    : "O-Dzin Tridral" <TridralO@Cardiff.ac.uk> wrote in message# news:sd09c663.012@pobox.cf.ac.uk...nJ > I would appreciate a few examples of VMS configurations designed to deal with > faults and disasters.i > E > The reason for my query is that I have an opportunity to talk aboutr	 improvinggH > reliability of systems.  Although VMS usage is gradually decreasing at Cardiff,K > I have a background of 14 years experience from a previous job and I knowh ai" > little of what it is capable of. >TF > Unfortunately I never played a system management role and so was not directlyK > involved in configuration.  However our system manager in my previous job  hadiJ > been extremely successful in creating a number of VMS installations that served  > the business very well indeed. >.L > Some real-world example of the service VMS provides to businesses would beG > helpful, and some technical notes, if possible re clustering (how faro apart doI > you keep your cluster members, what do you use to link them) and volumea@ > shadowing (how far apart do you keep your shadow set members). >sI > The kind of server systems we use (netware, NT, Sun) provide databases,n files,J > disk space and print services.  The clients are mostly WNT, moving to XP at somep > stage. >c  > Thank you for any information. >c	 > 'o-Dzin  >r >u   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:17:42 GMTo# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>e= Subject: Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerancehI Message-ID: <WypO8.329627$t8_.15662@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   = http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/gscc/gscc.pdfy    : "O-Dzin Tridral" <TridralO@Cardiff.ac.uk> wrote in message# news:sd09c663.012@pobox.cf.ac.uk...cJ > I would appreciate a few examples of VMS configurations designed to deal with > faults and disasters.a > E > The reason for my query is that I have an opportunity to talk aboute	 improvingnH > reliability of systems.  Although VMS usage is gradually decreasing at Cardiff,K > I have a background of 14 years experience from a previous job and I knowo ae" > little of what it is capable of. >nF > Unfortunately I never played a system management role and so was not directlyK > involved in configuration.  However our system manager in my previous job  hadtJ > been extremely successful in creating a number of VMS installations that served  > the business very well indeed. >.L > Some real-world example of the service VMS provides to businesses would beG > helpful, and some technical notes, if possible re clustering (how farO apart doI > you keep your cluster members, what do you use to link them) and volume @ > shadowing (how far apart do you keep your shadow set members). >eI > The kind of server systems we use (netware, NT, Sun) provide databases,m files,J > disk space and print services.  The clients are mostly WNT, moving to XP at some- > stage. >-  > Thank you for any information. >0	 > 'o-Dzin  >0 >    ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 12:17:53 -0600- From: frey@encompasserve.org (Sharon Guthrie) = Subject: Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerance 3 Message-ID: <kbxF5TsEbxO8@eisner.encompasserve.org>n   > O-Dzin Tridral wrote:  >> sP >> I would appreciate a few examples of VMS configurations designed to deal with >> faults and disasters.  % One from my personal employment past:h  L Used to work as a programmer/sysmangler at a 911 dispatch center.  Computer P aided dispatching, on VMS, on a two node vaxcluster.  We shockingly didn't have P a hot backup site, in terms of computers, phone systems or radios.  On the rare P occasion the center had to be evacuated, the dispatchers were moved to a really I old trashy abandoned building at the airport, used a few portable radios sO donated by the police depts, and about 4 plain old telephones hooked up to the  0 911 trunk.  (Hang on, I'm just setting this up.)  N The powers that be finally negotiated a deal with a local police dept who had O some empty space in their office building.  We got it wired for the backup 911 .P trunk and radios.  Being in the police dept they already had the radio antennas N and such.  We computer geeks extended our network over to them, adjusting the P firewalls and everything.  Never expected to have to use it so soon, but it was P only a couple months before our center was required to evacuate.  (Evacuating a > 911 dispatch center is an adrenaline-filled, scary adventure.)  J Street workers busted a gas pipe near our building.  Explosion danger was O moderate, breathing issues were highest, and so they evacuated us to the other eN site.  We computer techs got all the computer terminals at the backup site up O and running, and our people kept on trucking.  Dispatchers and mucky-mucks all  O were amazed that they could still be using the system when it was still in the sC evacuated building in another town.  (They were fairly tech-naive.)    Sharon   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 10:21:56 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)@= Subject: Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault tolerancec= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206140921.54e594a7@posting.google.com>   ` "O-Dzin Tridral" <TridralO@Cardiff.ac.uk> wrote in message news:<sd09c663.012@pobox.cf.ac.uk>...O > I would appreciate a few examples of VMS configurations designed to deal witha > faults and disasters.x  E I'm sure you'll find info about the Credit Lyonnais fire somewhere onbC OpenVMS web site under http://www.hp.com/products/openvms/  There anE VMS cluster using remote shadowing to protect the data saved the day.m  D I helped build E*Trade's disaster-tolerant cluster between Palo AltoD and Sacramento.  Palo Alto is along the San Andreas fault, and whileD the "Big One" that was the initial impetus to set this DT cluster up? hasn't hit, we did almost lose the Palo Alto datacenter once tooC flooding (water was lapping over the sidewalk outside the 1st-floorbB datacenter), and a security guard on his first day on the job shutD down one entire datacenter when he panicked upon hearing a UPS audio= alarm and hit the big red emergency power-off button, and the @ customers never knew the difference.  Two sites 130 miles apart,D linked by dual DS-3 (45 megabit) Telco links from different vendors.  7 Also helped build the International Securities ExchangeaC (www.iseoptions.com) test and production clusters.  Two sites a few@C miles apart, one on Manhattan and one in New Jersey, linked by dualo? ATM (155-megabit) links.  Same infrastructure was also used forw< BrokerTec (www.brokertec.com), a new electronic exchange for fixed-income securities.  : I also helped set up several DT clusters for semiconductor@ manufacturers worried about the systems used to run their fabs. > Typically dark fiber with FDDI links for those, since fiber is= relatively easy to string within a manufacturing campus area.a  E I recently helped set up a DT cluster for a hospital near Washington,sB DC, which used dark fiber for dual Gigabit Ethernet and dual Fibre Channel links between sites.  ? I helped plan a DT cluster for a cellphone company in Argentina D several years ago.  Next month I'll be visiting a couple of cellular@ telephone companies in South Africa that have DT VMS clusters in place.  E There's a whole lot of activity going on right now in building DT VMSe	 clusters.s  F You can find introductory information on disaster-tolerant clusters in6 my 'VMS Clusters: Advanced Concepts' seminar slides at% http://www.geocities.com/keithparris/r: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 12:30:08 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)m= Subject: Re: VMS as a example of disaster and fault toleranceo3 Message-ID: <C6DgSiJNZrD6@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  p In article <nupO8.329624$t8_.201444@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:J > I can't find it on Compaq's web site (help anyone?), but in the mid-90'sK > there was a major fire at Paribas in Paris. HQ building burned out almostiL > 100%. They were using VAX'es at the time to do FX trading if memory serves> > me correctly, clustered to a warm backup site outside Paris. > I > Back in business the next morning from the backup site. No transactionse
 > missing. >   9 	Probably the most publically famous VMS DT success storyu> 	there is (now sadly, Cantor Fitzgerald ranks right up there).  9 http://www.compaq.com/inform/issues/issue18/18in_txt.htmlr  ) 	This next link contains the whole story:o  , http://www.dnpg.com/dr/stories/credi-mn.html  * Digital France saves the data--and the day  L A thick black tower of smoke dominated the Paris skyline for miles around onL May 5, 1996, as two-thirds of an historic-landmark building was destroyed inK one of the worst fires to ravage a Paris building in the last 25 years. TheiJ building was home to Credit Lyonnais, one of the largest banks in France.    [snip]  N The system worked, he says, because it was a carefully organized plan that wasI put in writing. That's how even the very next day following the fire, thelM trading rooms were functioning. "The banking world was stupified that we werewO there Monday," remarks Hummel. "What impressed us was the ability of all of our O major suppliers to mobilize and furnish equipment and services. Digital managedkO this very well indeed. They were everywhere with us." He also notes that it waspO fundamental to have the Digital team managed by a single person: "Jacques Nesme01 was always there, in permanent contact with us." o   ---e   				Robf   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:08:54 +02007E From: Jan C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vorbr=FCggen?= <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de>lM Subject: Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)r+ Message-ID: <3D09CEC6.7AA455FD@mediasec.de>n  $ > |--------------------------------|$ > | Cluster Admin                  |$ > |     |-------------|            |$ > |     | Group admin |            |$ > |     |-------------|            |$ > |                                |$ > |--------------------------------|H > In this model the Group Admin cannot grant privileges to those in his & > group that were not granted to him.   B Any design not built to this restriction is broken, security-wise.   	Jan   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:13:11 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)vM Subject: Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday),3 Message-ID: <tKh4G+1SPIAh@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  V In article <3D094CF3.6A9B730B@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> fY >> In article <3D08EC56.2E79D401@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:a >> > Larry Kilgallen wrote:y    H >> >> I have had good success relying on the documentation about levels. >> >U >> > Please point me to the article to which you are referring. I promise to read it.  >> =4 >> file:///VMSDOC073/v73/6346/6346pro_031.html#app_a >> n( >> (I say "level", they say "category"). > # > These terms are really different.D  F The words are different but the meanings are the same.  If you look atA the VMS "categories" you will see they are strictly hierarchical.E  M > Fine. Using security domain as the cluster, we come back to the fact that I M > still can't delegate to group admins within my domain. And we can't do thatm3 > primarily because privileges don't have "levels".s  F I don't see how this has anything to do with levels.   Allowing peopleA to hand out privileges they have constrains them from handing outr privileges above their level.w  $ > |--------------------------------|$ > | Cluster Admin                  |$ > |     |-------------|            |$ > |     | Group admin |            |$ > |     |-------------|            |$ > |                                |$ > |--------------------------------|R > In this model the Group Admin cannot grant privileges to those in his group thatO > were not granted to him. Some applications have this style of administration,yO > but of course it only extends to the specific functions of that application.    : Marty can comment regarding whether XUAFMaestro does that.  C I will say that if the XUAFMaestro vendor found insufficient demand = for that, they certainly VMS Development would find likewise..   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:14:56 GMTc( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>M Subject: Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)s+ Message-ID: <3D0A250A.C77D640A@pacbell.net>e   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > X > In article <3D094CF3.6A9B730B@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >>[ > >> In article <3D08EC56.2E79D401@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:  > >> > Larry Kilgallen wrote:  > J > >> >> I have had good success relying on the documentation about levels. > >> >W > >> > Please point me to the article to which you are referring. I promise to read it.n > >>6 > >> file:///VMSDOC073/v73/6346/6346pro_031.html#app_a > >>* > >> (I say "level", they say "category"). > > % > > These terms are really different.1 > H > The words are different but the meanings are the same.  If you look atC > the VMS "categories" you will see they are strictly hierarchical.n  H If you mean the categories described below, I see where we differ in our definitions.      None: No privileges i>      Normal: Minimum privileges to effectively use the system B      Group: Potential to interfere with members of the same group C      Devour: Potential to consume noncritical systemwide resources  A      System: Potential to interfere with normal system operation b6      Objects: Potential to compromise object security *      All: Potential to control the system O These categories are broad and have some sense of hierarchy, but as I said fromoN the start, do not reflect a well thought out system of leveled privileges. Nor1 can they implement the security model I spoke of.s   > O > > Fine. Using security domain as the cluster, we come back to the fact that IrO > > still can't delegate to group admins within my domain. And we can't do thatr5 > > primarily because privileges don't have "levels".s > H > I don't see how this has anything to do with levels.   Allowing peopleC > to hand out privileges they have constrains them from handing outh > privileges above their level.a   Exactly.   > & > > |--------------------------------|& > > | Cluster Admin                  |& > > |     |-------------|            |& > > |     | Group admin |            |& > > |     |-------------|            |& > > |                                |& > > |--------------------------------|T > > In this model the Group Admin cannot grant privileges to those in his group thatQ > > were not granted to him. Some applications have this style of administration,oP > > but of course it only extends to the specific functions of that application. > < > Marty can comment regarding whether XUAFMaestro does that. > E > I will say that if the XUAFMaestro vendor found insufficient demand ? > for that, they certainly VMS Development would find likewise.k  K I've worked on more than one project that used that model. I believe Oraclee allows for something similar.s   -- w   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin (@alphase.com) 
 San Franciscop   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 12:59:35 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)mM Subject: Re: VMS Groups and Privileges (was: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday)23 Message-ID: <tFYPly5AOsbH@eisner.encompasserve.org>   V In article <3D0A250A.C77D640A@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:  J > If you mean the categories described below, I see where we differ in our > definitions. >      None: No privileges s@ >      Normal: Minimum privileges to effectively use the system D >      Group: Potential to interfere with members of the same group E >      Devour: Potential to consume noncritical systemwide resources  C >      System: Potential to interfere with normal system operation t8 >      Objects: Potential to compromise object security , >      All: Potential to control the system Q > These categories are broad and have some sense of hierarchy, but as I said fromiP > the start, do not reflect a well thought out system of leveled privileges. Nor3 > can they implement the security model I spoke of.   J The VMS Security Model is cast in stone, unless somebody writes some code.F Whether that code is part of the operating system or an add-on productD like XUAFMaestro, code running with privilege is part of the TCB, by definition.d  F Your notion of management realms is a mere abstraction compared to the< _real_ privileges on the system, like Change Mode to Kernel.  F If you really want the capability, buy it from XUAFMaestro, to supportJ the third party software segment (unless it is too late for that product).   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:39:07 -0700  From: deltauh@yahoo.com (daniel)" Subject: Re: VMS Monitoring a User= Message-ID: <e6e1751e.0206140639.48efec35@posting.google.com>l   "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message news:<200206111628.g5BGStYw022773@cryptofortress.com>...iE > On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:r > >Hoff Hoffman wrote:I > >>   The mechanism that prevents this is the "Privilege".  There are no H > >>   "Privileges" that prevent misuse of "Privileges".  If you want toJ > >>   prevent users from killing other jobs or other unsocial behaviours,H > >>   remove GROUP or WORLD and all heavy privileges from the untrusted
 > >>   users.e > >l  A I would suggest that if you are not sure about who to trust thinkc? about some software packages that record user actions.  I saw anD program in a demo that actually recorded all the keystrokes and thenA you have all the proof you need.  I'm pretty sure the product wassE System Detective. www.pointsecure.com.  The product seems to be quitetE reputable.  They also have some other auditing tools that look great.M   Daniel Zadik   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:40:35 -0700  From: deltauh@yahoo.com (daniel)" Subject: Re: VMS Monitoring a User= Message-ID: <e6e1751e.0206140640.1ac0b378@posting.google.com>r   "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message news:<200206111628.g5BGStYw022773@cryptofortress.com>...eE > On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:i > >Hoff Hoffman wrote:I > >>   The mechanism that prevents this is the "Privilege".  There are nolH > >>   "Privileges" that prevent misuse of "Privileges".  If you want toJ > >>   prevent users from killing other jobs or other unsocial behaviours,H > >>   remove GROUP or WORLD and all heavy privileges from the untrusted
 > >>   users.h > >dA I would suggest that if you are not sure about who to trust thinki? about some software packages that record user actions.  I saw aTD program in a demo that actually recorded all the keystrokes and thenA you have all the proof you need.  I'm pretty sure the product waseE System Detective. www.pointsecure.com.  The product seems to be quiterE reputable.  They also have some other auditing tools that look great.e   Daniel Zadik   ------------------------------    Date: 14 Jun 2002 07:40:33 -0700  From: deltauh@yahoo.com (daniel)" Subject: Re: VMS Monitoring a User< Message-ID: <e6e1751e.0206140640.cf56232@posting.google.com>   "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message news:<200206111628.g5BGStYw022773@cryptofortress.com>...oE > On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:  > >Hoff Hoffman wrote:I > >>   The mechanism that prevents this is the "Privilege".  There are nodH > >>   "Privileges" that prevent misuse of "Privileges".  If you want toJ > >>   prevent users from killing other jobs or other unsocial behaviours,H > >>   remove GROUP or WORLD and all heavy privileges from the untrusted
 > >>   users.p > > A I would suggest that if you are not sure about who to trust thinkp? about some software packages that record user actions.  I saw a D program in a demo that actually recorded all the keystrokes and thenA you have all the proof you need.  I'm pretty sure the product wassE System Detective. www.pointsecure.com.  The product seems to be quitetE reputable.  They also have some other auditing tools that look great.u   Daniel Zadik   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.328 ************************