1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 15 Jun 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 330       Contents:< Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have< Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have< Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have< RE: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have@ Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it"@ Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it"@ Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it"@ Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it" Re: Affinity and Itanic 3 Re: Another analyst says VMS port won't be finished 3 Re: Another analyst says VMS port won't be finished # Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS? @ Re: Fastest CD-R or CD-RW capabilities for burning under OpenVMS@ Re: Fastest CD-R or CD-RW capabilities for burning under OpenVMS@ Re: Fastest CD-R or CD-RW capabilities for burning under OpenVMS+ Re: howto create self-extracting zip files? % Re: Interesting approach to marketing  Re: Linus' comments about VMS , Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... Re: Open Letter to HP ' Re: PWS500au PowerStorm 3D30 DECWindows  Re: Quorum disk hang$ Re: RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write); Re: Secure HTTP client app buildable under OpenVMS/OpenSSL? 2 Re: SSH v2 (was Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS...)2 RE: SSH v2 (was Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS...) Re: unix history Re: unix historyH Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's@ Re: updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMS@ Re: updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMS@ Re: updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMS Re: VMS advertising suggestion Re: VMS Monitoring a User # Why is Compaq memory so expensive ? ' Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ? ' Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ? ' Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ? ' Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ? ' Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ?   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 2002 02:30 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) E Subject: Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have - Message-ID: <15JUN200202303302@gerg.tamu.edu>   = Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes... J }> Love is wonderful, but sending an interviewer and film crew to film for$ }> commercials would be even better. } 5 }The combination of the two would be staggering.  :-)  } G }Someone once mentioned in comp.os.vms an interesting remark along the  J }lines of "working with Dave Cutler at DEC was like being in a homoerotic  }cowboy movie".  :-| } J }More seriously, a commercial in which a customer says "we haven't bought G }anything from the vendor in 10 years" and the vendor says "that's the  I }kind of customers we like" would cast an interesting light on those who  J }sell quality products and those who sell just to make money.  Fade to an J }accountant who then announces that VMS is the most profitable product in  }the vendor's portfolio.  B Except that it probably isn't. I suspect that Tandem stuff you may? have heard of is actually more profitable. And even past that I A would not be surprised to find the ink for their printers - it is C phenominally lucrative (it has a good profit margin and people just C keep buying the stuff over and over again). It is also not unlikely 3 the Tru64 and HPUX are in the same ballpark as VMS.    --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 08:37:21 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>E Subject: Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have B Message-ID: <51DO8.258454$%o.21147717@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  4 "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message' news:15JUN200202303302@gerg.tamu.edu... ? > Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes...    ...   
 > }Fade to an K > }accountant who then announces that VMS is the most profitable product in  > }the vendor's portfolio. > D > Except that it probably isn't. I suspect that Tandem stuff you may, > have heard of is actually more profitable.  H Probably not.  While the figure of $2b in Tandem annual revenue has beenH seen in a Compaq slide presentation, both Terry and another source (someJ recent article, but I forget where) have pegged it at $1.2b (perhaps $1.5bG including service revenue).  VMS annual revenue until the Alphacide was L about $4b, with $800m annual profit:  even at the $2b annual revenue figure,H Tandem would have had to generate twice VMS's profit per unit revenue to match VMS's absolute profit.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 08:43:41 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>E Subject: Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have B Message-ID: <17DO8.253228$Kp.21361382@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  J (Again, apologies if this appears twice:  news seems to have eaten another completed post.)  4 "Carl Perkins" <carl@gerg.tamu.edu> wrote in message' news:15JUN200202303302@gerg.tamu.edu... ? > Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes...    ...   
 > }Fade to an K > }accountant who then announces that VMS is the most profitable product in  > }the vendor's portfolio. > D > Except that it probably isn't. I suspect that Tandem stuff you may, > have heard of is actually more profitable.  H Probably not.  While the figure of $2b in Tandem annual revenue has beenH seen in a Compaq slide presentation, both Terry and another source (someJ recent article, but I forget where) have pegged it at $1.2b (perhaps $1.5bG including service revenue).  VMS annual revenue until the Alphacide was L about $4b, with $800m annual profit:  even at the $2b annual revenue figure,H Tandem would have had to generate twice VMS's profit per unit revenue to match VMS's absolute profit.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 08:13:38 -0400 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>E Subject: RE: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have - Message-ID: <0033000068191586000002L062*@MHS>   < =0AYou've gotta admit that it's nicer to see a thread with a% subject line of "We stay with VMS..."   H as opposed to all those with titles like "Giant Rocks Hurtle Towards VM= S- Film  at 11"! (with apologies to George Carlin)    WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET % Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 7:03 AM B To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETE Subject: RE: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have      Sue,  H most if not all VMS customers will react like that, especially those th= at run VAX/VMS.H The confidence and trust in the engineering quality of software and har= dware  is difficult5 to match. I doubt that IBM customers even come close. H It is astounding that these attributes have not been commercially used = to
 advantage.  
 Hans VlemsH (now only running VMS at home, so I'm technically no longer a customer)=    ; Sue Skonetski <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message , news:CjqO8.27$Sq6.588824@news.cpqcorp.net...; > I have never met this customer, but I think I am in love.  >  > Thanks Didier, >  > sue  > < > "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message# > news:3D0A26BB.5E9B16FF@Free.fr... H > > I met a VMS customer today in Toulouse. Shadow temperature: 35?. Th= eyH > > manufacture wooden furniture. They have a cluster of two 4410 runni= ngC > > FORTRAN-77/PDP-1/RSX images in AME mode and some other migrated 	 programs.  > ThisE > > cluster drives tools-machines (5 axis, cutting machines, etc) and  collects > dataF > > from the ground for management, statistics, etc. It also buils the > inventory H > > documents to manufacture the thousand of pieces they build, then it=   > prepares the/ > > loading of the trucks for optimal delivery.  > > H > > He said: "Why I'll stay with DEC? Because I haven't rebooted my clu= ster > since H > > many years, because we have just forgotten all about our computers = which 	 > run and H > > run and run, because the last hardware intervention from DEC (he st= ill  > says DEC) H > > was in april 1994 (he still has the blue Field Service folder with = two  > pages H > > inside, since 1982) for a battery to change and also because we hav= e in > our H > > building some VTs connected, via RS232, 300 meters from the compute= r  room > whenH > > the spec says 30 meters. This is why we will not change. I hope tha= t one  > day H > > other Customers will discover the amazing quality of these products=  that  > the 4 0 > > years COMPAQ era fortunately did not alter". > >  > > It has been a pleasant day.  > >  > > D. > > --6 > >   ------------------------------------------------6 > > MORANDI Consultants  http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr4 > >   19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.6 > > Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax: +33 (0)5 6154 19286 > > OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans6 > > -------------------------------------------------- >  >=   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:34:26 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)I Subject: Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it" 5 Message-ID: <SKEO8.249293$305.3479967@news.chello.at>   W In article <3D0A26BB.5E9B16FF@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> writes: F >I met a VMS customer today in Toulouse. Shadow temperature: 35. TheyF >manufacture wooden furniture. They have a cluster of two 4410 runningO >FORTRAN-77/PDP-1/RSX images in AME mode and some other migrated programs. This P >cluster drives tools-machines (5 axis, cutting machines, etc) and collects dataM >from the ground for management, statistics, etc. It also buils the inventory Q >documents to manufacture the thousand of pieces they build, then it prepares the , >loading of the trucks for optimal delivery. > N >He said: "Why I'll stay with DEC? Because I haven't rebooted my cluster sinceQ >many years, because we have just forgotten all about our computers which run and Q >run and run, because the last hardware intervention from DEC (he still says DEC) M >was in april 1994 (he still has the blue Field Service folder with two pages L >inside, since 1982) for a battery to change and also because we have in ourO >building some VTs connected, via RS232, 300 meters from the computer room when M >the spec says 30 meters. This is why we will not change. I hope that one day O >other Customers will discover the amazing quality of these products that the 4 - >years COMPAQ era fortunately did not alter".  >  >It has been a pleasant day.  E Am I the only one, who doesn't get a good feeling when reading this ? F For me this is a dead system, because it wasn't improved for a decade.G And when the time of this VAX h/w is coming (more likely this year than I later) and you won't get spare parts any longer, then you HAVE TO discard J the whole system alltogether (like it or not) and replacing it with what ?L The application probably wasn't touched/improved for a decade, probably alsoH won't run on OpenVMS Alpha (probably, because who did care so far ?) andI then you are most likely forced to build a complete new system on unknown G and unproven hardware from which vendor (you know, DEC is no longer)...   4 For me, a system has to get improvements every year.@ I don't really like the 'never touch a running system' approach,B because when it stops running some years later, you no longer knowE what to do then and probably also no longer find one with experiences E on such old h/w or s/w. PVS was surely not built for me. And if I had G the money, my systems would be now only EV6 or better systems either...    just my 0.02   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:13:43 +0200 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>I Subject: Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it" 5 Message-ID: <aef72h$6fobv$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>    Sue,  I most if not all VMS customers will react like that, especially those that  run VAX/VMS.L The confidence and trust in the engineering quality of software and hardware is difficult5 to match. I doubt that IBM customers even come close. I It is astounding that these attributes have not been commercially used to 
 advantage.  
 Hans VlemsG (now only running VMS at home, so I'm technically no longer a customer)   ; Sue Skonetski <susan.skonetski@compaq.com> wrote in message , news:CjqO8.27$Sq6.588824@news.cpqcorp.net...; > I have never met this customer, but I think I am in love.  >  > Thanks Didier, >  > sue  > < > "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message# > news:3D0A26BB.5E9B16FF@Free.fr... I > > I met a VMS customer today in Toulouse. Shadow temperature: 35. They I > > manufacture wooden furniture. They have a cluster of two 4410 running C > > FORTRAN-77/PDP-1/RSX images in AME mode and some other migrated 	 programs.  > ThisE > > cluster drives tools-machines (5 axis, cutting machines, etc) and  collects > dataF > > from the ground for management, statistics, etc. It also buils the > inventory G > > documents to manufacture the thousand of pieces they build, then it  > prepares the/ > > loading of the trucks for optimal delivery.  > > K > > He said: "Why I'll stay with DEC? Because I haven't rebooted my cluster  > since L > > many years, because we have just forgotten all about our computers which	 > run and J > > run and run, because the last hardware intervention from DEC (he still > says DEC) J > > was in april 1994 (he still has the blue Field Service folder with two > pages K > > inside, since 1982) for a battery to change and also because we have in  > our H > > building some VTs connected, via RS232, 300 meters from the computer room > whenL > > the spec says 30 meters. This is why we will not change. I hope that one > day L > > other Customers will discover the amazing quality of these products that > the 4 0 > > years COMPAQ era fortunately did not alter". > >  > > It has been a pleasant day.  > >  > > D. > > --6 > >   ------------------------------------------------6 > > MORANDI Consultants  http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr4 > >   19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.6 > > Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax: +33 (0)5 6154 19286 > > OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans6 > > -------------------------------------------------- >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:16:13 +0200 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl>I Subject: Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it" 5 Message-ID: <aef77b$6jrat$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>    Phillip,  I a rational answer like that is beyond Didier, or any other real frenchman  :-)    HansD Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KIXMQ8ONPI96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com... @ > > So that everyone knows that I'm kidding, I'll reply in here: > > ( > > With me, Sue? (or still with DEC :-) >  > With the customer, of course.    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:24:02 GMT ( From: "Jay E. Morris" <jem@epsilon3.com>I Subject: Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it" + Message-ID: <3D0B7758.7040704@epsilon3.com>    Hans Vlems wrote:  > Sue, > K > most if not all VMS customers will react like that, especially those that  > run VAX/VMS.N > The confidence and trust in the engineering quality of software and hardware > is difficult7 > to match. I doubt that IBM customers even come close.cK > It is astounding that these attributes have not been commercially used toe > advantage. >  > Hans VlemsI > (now only running VMS at home, so I'm technically no longer a customer)h  G Well, actually I hate it.  Damn hardware, software.  I hate it because  I it runs so well.  Been trying to convince them for 4 years to upgrade my eI 2100/1000.  But no, damn stuff never breaks, never crashes so they don't t see any reason to upgrade. Bah!c  H (But the databases have gotten so large that I convinced them we needed F SDLT to cut down our backup time, and of course we just HAD to have a F better server for the tape library, and we just ....  Stuff should be  here in a couple weeks!)   -- l
 Jay E. Morrisa System Software Specialist Brooks AFB, TXD ANYA: I found one of those 24-hour places for coffee. Remember that F bookstore? Well they became one of those books-and-coffee places, and ? now they're just coffee. It's like evolution, only without the t getting-better part. -----------    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Jun 2002 07:26:49 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)  Subject: Re: Affinity and Itanic= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206150626.76324a9f@posting.google.com>r  t "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<VGzO8.248376$Gs.21289426@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...M > When mentioning the infamous 'affinity' program just now, it reminded me of-A > just how much history seems to be repeating itself with Itanic.- > N > When Microsoft came out with NT the conventional wisdom was that the days ofL > other mid-range OSs were numbered, with not all that many bits required toL > express said number.  DEC quaked in its boots, VMS rolled over and exposed< > its belly in submission, and the world waited expectantly. > M > And 9 years later it's still waiting.  The vendors (IBM, Sun, HP) who stuck:H > by their guns and continued to compete have done pretty well over thatK > period of time, while DEC is no more (nor even is the company that boughtoN > it) and SGI, though still arguably alive, got badly damaged by its temporaryN > conversion to the Church of Redmond (yes, part of that damage was related toL > its accompanying hardware commitment to Itanic, but a good deal was caused, > by its embrace of NT 32-bit workstations). > K > Now along comes Itanic.  While NT was actually a semi-credible product atbN > first release (at least considering what first releases tend to be, and withM > no foreknowledge of the problems that would later ensue trying to *keep* itnG > semi-credible while shoveling on large additional servings of Windows I > topping), Itanic was a complete dog even after having spent 3 - 4 years L > longer in the oven than originally promised.  Nonetheless, long before theH > first prototype Itanic hardware existed HP and SGI laid down their ownJ > processor architectures before it, and then even after the first releaseH > proved to be a disaster Compaq put the best architecture of all on theN > sacrificial altar (and it makes one wonder whether this was at least in partN > *because* Merced was such a pig and thus so desperately needed some dramatic0 > kind of public commitment to keep hope alive). > N > This time, however, there's much less uncertainty about where Itanic will beJ > over the next three years than there was with NT:  it's going absolutelyN > nowhere after McKinley, save for process shrinks, until at least 2005.  ThatA > was clear even a year ago when Alpha was sacrificed, as was the'9 > already-declining performance expectation for McKinley.a > K > Of course, there could still be a surprise or two in store.  For example,wF > The Inquirer has made at least two references recently to the 1.5 MBH > McKinley cache (and to 3 MB in Madison next year):  a 1.5 MB cache wasM > reported a few months ago as the amount associated with the 900 MHz versionnM > of McKinley (the 1 GHz version having twice as much, with 6 MB in Madison),lM > so while it's possible that Mike is merely confused it's also possible thatiD > McKinley may *still* be having problems reaching even 1 GHz and/orN > sufficient heat-dissipation issues that some of its cache must be disabled -N > but if Intel meets its again-deferred launch date we should know next month. > D > Will the same things that happened to DEC when it bowed before theK > 'inevitable' NT domination happen to HP, while IBM and Sun win (again) byrK > sticking to their own proven architectures (and perhaps sticking a toe oraJ > three into AMD's as well)?  Those with a vested interest in HP's successL > aren't likely to think so, and one of the major reasons that 'conventionalI > wisdom' is such an oxymoron is that it so often fails to be informed byn > experience...w >  > - bill  C no, because Intel was smart in getting the Alpha team and EV8-9 so  B they have something to fall back on just in case ... if the Itanic> Epic boat anchor hits an iceberg, then they can just use EV8-9D technology, hpux can have an emulator written, and hp can just tweakB its roadmap to porting hpux users to tru64 or vms ... Intel is notE stupid, and neither is hp ... Alpha was bought as insurance for their @ 64 bit platform as they cannot abandon it now and lose all theirA customers ... they will have to provide some kind of solution ...F   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:19:22 GMTe1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>y< Subject: Re: Another analyst says VMS port won't be finished- Message-ID: <eOJO8.41659$nZ3.10326@rwcrnsc53>r  G "Simon Clubley" <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote ine5 message news:ntGVRKc7WhjH@eisner.encompasserve.org... J > In article <509K8.79558$ux5.100094@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>, "Terry C.) Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:b > > K > > "Simon Clubley" <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote in 9 > > message news:LkDXLyTDBFtx@eisner.encompasserve.org... L > >> In article <WEPJ8.68365$ux5.82091@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>, "Terry C.- > > Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:  > >> >J > >> > The GG VMS codswallop of December last is about to cost HPQ dearly.
 > > That'sH > >> > all I can say, but it's a sordid and downright sickening story of what> > >> > happens when you don't stand up to misinformed bullies. > >>F > >> Although you obviously have some information that you cannot talk about,J > >> do you have a timescale in which this story will come to a conclusion andI. > >> will you be able to speak about it then ? > >oK > > Plenty of folks should be able to talk about the VMS to IPF port by thea endu > > of this year.r > > K > > As to when will the OS story come to a conclusion, who knows. Over time- itL > > wouldn't surprise me to see more and more VMS attributes (not to mentionI > > Tru64 and NSK) get subsumed into the UDC/Server Utility strategy. VMS F > > already has contributed to Tru64 UNIX (clustering, DLM, et al), no	 reason it,E > > can't contribute to the computing environment we're likely to see- within,  > > say, the next five years.- > >a >  > Clarification time. :-)0 > J > Terry, the story that I am interested in is the one that I quoted above,H > where you imply that HP is about to lose a large amount of business asK > a result of the Gartner Group VMS analysis. I was wondering when the lossrJ > of business was likely to happen, and if you would be able to talk about > it after that time.r  I Yes, in my humble opinion HPQ will lose a lot of business thanks to theiroJ nonresponse to the Gartner codswallop. (Oh, they responded all right, theyH sent even more money Gartner's way... Gartner did every VMS message testI post June 25 2001, and look what HPQ got in return). I also read that the E average sucker, er, client. pays Gartner $84K per yar for "research."u  H Wish I could figure out an equally profitable scam, but then there's the3 little matter of ethics and integrity to deal with.   J When the losses materialize (and HPQ to its credit apparently is trying to0 reverse the damage) the truth will become known.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:21:30 GMT:1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>h< Subject: Re: Another analyst says VMS port won't be finished- Message-ID: <eQJO8.41670$nZ3.11032@rwcrnsc53>v  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D023C63.620C8F61@fsi.net...y > Terry C Shannon wrote: > >t' > > On 5 Jun 2002, Simon Clubley wrote:M > >aK > > > In article <509K8.79558$ux5.100094@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>, "Terry , C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes: > > > >sL > > > > "Simon Clubley" <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote in= > > > > message news:LkDXLyTDBFtx@eisner.encompasserve.org...SF > > > >> In article <WEPJ8.68365$ux5.82091@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>,	 "Terry C.o1 > > > > Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:i
 > > > >> >F > > > >> > The GG VMS codswallop of December last is about to cost HPQ dearly.  > > > > That'sL > > > >> > all I can say, but it's a sordid and downright sickening story of whatB > > > >> > happens when you don't stand up to misinformed bullies. > > > >>J > > > >> Although you obviously have some information that you cannot talk about,C > > > >> do you have a timescale in which this story will come to ai conclusion and2 > > > >> will you be able to speak about it then ? > > > >eK > > > > Plenty of folks should be able to talk about the VMS to IPF port byc the endo > > > > of this year.. > > > >yJ > > > > As to when will the OS story come to a conclusion, who knows. Over time it H > > > > wouldn't surprise me to see more and more VMS attributes (not to mentionVI > > > > Tru64 and NSK) get subsumed into the UDC/Server Utility strategy.  VMS J > > > > already has contributed to Tru64 UNIX (clustering, DLM, et al), no	 reason itaI > > > > can't contribute to the computing environment we're likely to see  within,a! > > > > say, the next five years.) > > > >  > > >  > > > Clarification time. :-). > > > G > > > Terry, the story that I am interested in is the one that I quotede above,L > > > where you imply that HP is about to lose a large amount of business asJ > > > a result of the Gartner Group VMS analysis. I was wondering when the lossH > > > of business was likely to happen, and if you would be able to talk about  > > > it after that time.i > > >e > >hG > > Oh yes, rest assured that the story will be publicized. It involves D > > several large US Govt agencies. Another loss is imminent here in > > Amsterdam, too.  > >s > > To be continued... > J > Might there be room for HP to sue Gartner? (I realize you're not a legal% > expert - speculation will suffice.)-  L Highly unlikely. Remember, GG leverages "opinion" and "probability factors." Both are CYA ploys  K There of course is plenty of room for HPQ to stop handing money over to GG.2K If HPQ is into S&M, there are cheaper ways to be abused than to retain a GGs analyst to perform the abuse.    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Jun 2002 19:20:00 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>, Subject: Re: Carly was here in ZKO yesterday- Message-ID: <87fzzo3i1r.fsf@prep.synonet.com>a  / djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes:   F > OTOH if Rational's ADA-95 IDE suite (i.e. Apex) were written in JavaF > then we could possibly have deployed it on VMS instead of Solaris. I# > suspect it's mostly C/C++ though.d   ::blink::boggle::...  = An *ADA* IDE written in C/C pus pus? This is a joke isn't it?h   -- o< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.a@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 2002 01:06 CDTr' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?- Message-ID: <15JUN200201062938@gerg.tamu.edu>g  6 Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes...= }> 1.How do you display the three time stamps of a UNIX file?- } . }You can select the desired timestamp using ls. }qualifiers. But I suppose you're trying to be- }tricky and ask "How do you display all threet) }time stamps *AT THE SAME TIME*?" In that$0 }case I would run my little "stat" program which3 }dumps *ALL* of that stat'able data associated with14 }a file. Doubtless there are other means. I've never0 }needed to see all three timestamps at one time.- }BTW, when you're doing that in VMS, how widea }is your terminal output?s  D 80 is fine to see all the info for a file - doing a dir/full doesn'tD try to cram everything on one line, so you can see all 6 dates (yes,A that is 6 - and it may gain another one for last access date as IfC think that may be required by DII-COE), and other stuff, just fine.t   $ dir/full login.com   Directory $DISK1:[CARL]a  1 LOGIN.COM;33                  File ID:  (164,7,0)p. Size:            3/4          Owner:    [CARL]" Created:   31-MAY-2001 18:08:15.36& Revised:   24-MAY-2002 23:16:21.13 (2) Expires:   <None specified>n" Backup:     8-JUN-2002 13:10:11.75 Effective: <None specified>p Recording: <None specified>' File organization:  Sequential Shelved state:      Online  Caching attribute:  WritethroughD File attributes:    Allocation: 4, Extend: 0, Global buffer count: 0$                     No version limitF Record format:      Variable length, maximum 0 bytes, longest 78 bytes4 Record attributes:  Carriage return carriage control RMS attributes:     None Journaling enabled: None> File protection:    System:RWE, Owner:RWED, Group:RE, World:RE Access Cntrl List:  None Client attributes:  None   Total of 1 file, 3/4 blocks. e  C On the other hand, doing a DIR/DATES=ALL does use a single line peru< file (wrapped if you are set to wrap long lines, of course).  D On a sinlge line you can normally fit two of the timestamps on an 80G character line, so you can, for example, do a DIR/DATE=(CREATE,MODIFY).y  < }> 4.How do you accomplish a fixed width display format when) }>   showing the contents of a directory?  } 1 }Once again, I don't see your point, nor do I seeo3 }where VMS is any improvment. Unix at least has then7 }courtesy to put the varying-width stuff (the filename)l3 }at the right side of the display; VMS embeds it atv3 }the left where you have to work hard to get at it.v4 }(You don't really think it's a fixed-width filename }field, do you???)  ? Of course it is - more or less - when you are getting more thana just the names of the files.  = Specify /WIDTH=(FILENAME=20) and it uses a 20 character fixeda@ width field, except that if the filename is longer than will fitA in the specified width it isn't truncated, it gets put on its own @ line and the rest of the requested info is on the following line- (with the filename field filled with blanks)."  B A width of 19 is the default for this. You can also specify widthsG for the owner and size fields, as well as a maximum total width (unlikeqB the filename field, the owner and total widths to truncate, and ifD the size exceeds the specified width it is astersik filled instead).  0 }By the way, in VMS, can you get a list of files0 }listed one-filename-per-line, as you might want" }for raw material for a .COM file?( }                                 Atlant  ' Of course. DIRECTORY/COLUMNS=1 for one.u  D You can also use /NOHEADING for this, which strips out the directoryG header lines, makes the filename list use a single column, and prependsh4 the device and directory to each file specification.  H Adding /NOTRAILING removes the ending blank line and summary line, which, can be helpfull in such a situation as well.   Direct from HELP DIR/HEADING:C [...]$D      The combination of the /NOHEADING and /NOTRAILING qualifiers isD      useful in command procedures where you want to create a list of7      complete file specifications for later operations.e   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 09:15:23 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)t$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?) Message-ID: <+HyC9Pwv0L9d@elias.decus.ch>P  P In article <00A0F66C.8E056755@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:b > In article <aeajdo$1r3b$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: > {...snip...}E >>any more than it would be for Unix.  But, regardless of which shipseF >>with more documentation, there ican still be little doubt that thereG >>is much more third party, aftermarket documentation for Unix than forn >>VMS. > J > Could it be that VMS documentation is so well written that there doesn't7 > need to be any additional after-market documentation.h >   N That has always been my opinion. I have always rated the ability to find one's& way around any OS docset quite highly.  K The other thing is that the *nix crowd seem to _require_ those extra books, M often purchased out of their _own pocket_, simply because such information isw! not supplied by the manufacturer.A   H > And whilst on the topic of "after-market documentation", I'll offer my > observations and opinions... > H > My last trip to B&N's "computer" shelves found little more than PeeCee > and Micro$chlock books.   O A different story here in Europe, with loads of Linux and things related books.:/ (Yes, there's the usual Microschrott stuff too))   <snip>   __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandg   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 2002 01:47 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)e$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?- Message-ID: <15JUN200201473886@gerg.tamu.edu>n  % Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net> writes...w: }"Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>& }> On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Atlant Schmidt( }> <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:  }>>Brass Christof wrote:	 }> <snip>e }> -2 }>>By the way, in VMS, can you get a list of files2 }>>listed one-filename-per-line, as you might want$ }>>for raw material for a .COM file? }> t }> $ DIR/COLUMNS=1 } 7 }Hmmm.... I prefer (to get the directory spec included)  } 
 }$ DIR/NOHEAD  } 7 }but is there a way to supress the "Total of XX files."o }line other than to use pipe ? } ) }$ pipe dir/nohead | search sys$input ";"  }  }-Andy-o  ? Have you ever considered looking at HELP DIRECTORY to find out?u   Try /NOTRAILING.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:23:56 +0200m' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>r$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D0AF99C.C3E692E3@spam.not>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:  >  > Brass Christof wrote:i > : > > > You still haven't answered my question. I guess I'll> > > > just have to assume that you have no idea which commands? > > > implement the /PRINT and /OUTPUT qualifiers. That's okay;t4 > > > neither do I. But I'm willing to admit it. :-) > >t> > > I think your question is irrelvant because it has never be@ > > answered in practice. If I issue a DCL command interactively@ > > or write one in a command procedure I know whether I can use! > > one of those both qualifiers.S > 1 > It's pretty amusing to tell me that my questione. > "never [has to be] answered in practice" and4 > then cite an example (writing a command procedure)3 > where you *MUST* answer the question, if only for " > the narrow scope of one command.  * You obviously don't understand my answer. - Or you don't remember your original question.o    A > > I might have logged in already why would I be able to executer > > any commands otherwise?u > + > Then again, you might not have. You mightr, > have only "sat down" at a terminal. I only( > suggest this to point out some "hidden$ > assumptions" that make your answer% > less-than-general and "orthogonal".p  ? Okay but you need the right to write to a file if you wan't to e@ use redirection to a file. Agreed that SET HOST/LOG needs a bit > more than simple redirection but this doesn't make the system  inconsisten or less powerful.y  7 > > Your answer is already okay. I used tee a few timesx9 > > but wasn't very happy with it. I also remember systems, > > that haven't tee. Is this standard UNIX? > 4 > It seems to be. (Is there a "standard" Unix? :-) )  ) This was exactly one of my two points ;-)s  7 > > > Feel free to keep believing that your glass house 8 > > > is far, far better than anyone else's glass house. > >n= > > You're completely missing the point: the balance matters!h > ; > Hmm, I think I'd be likely to say the same about you! :-)n< > I use/program upon Unix because I like it. In fact, I like@ > using it/prgramming upon it more than I like using/programming; > upon VMS. This is, of course, an opinion that expresses a 9 > personal taste, and opinions and tastes vary. But I seec7 > a lot of discussions in c.o.v. that seem to run alonga2 > the lines of "Unix sucks because it doesn't have0 > <my_favorite_feature>!" or "...because it does, > things <this_way> rather than <that_way>!"  : I have to work a lot with UNIX - much more than with VMS. 9 But I don't complain not about only single features that a9 are missing and I like but generally about the UNIX way. u7 I also complain about some missing features of VMS but e$ as I emphasised the balance matters.  < > Honestly, quite often, there are few or no objective facts8 > to support either position, pro or con to Unix or VMS.. > There are just opinions and personal tastes.  9 Design can be rated. If you look at the UNIX history you  7 need some good arguments to explain how a system which h7 has been created in that unorganised way should have a - consistent design.  8 AFAIK the DEC people knew UNIX very well and decided to 8 avoid a lot of UNIX pitfals when they started to design  VMS.  6 > And discussions about the strengths or weaknesses of; > the command languages definitely fall smack in the middle_8 > of that category. Me, I *ALWAYS* thought DCL sucked as6 > a command language and would have gladly returned to4 > the days of CCL. So tcsh, which strongly resembles9 > turbocharged CCL is just fine with me. Others obviously > > feel differently. "ls -1" is as natural to me as falling off4 > a log whereas others may find "DIRECTORY /NOHEADER5 > /NOTRAILER" (or whatever you guys finally decide isr4 > the correct answer for the same DCL command) to be > just as natural. > ) > But we're all just expressing opinions.p  5 This is exactly where most people stop although this s. attitude of anything goes has never proved to 7 accomplish something outstanding. There are matters of  3 taste but there is a large area which can be rated t$ according general design principles.  1 Especially the syntax of the shell(s) is a mess. t  7 Wouldn't you agree that there should be an unbreakable I5 barrier between the parts that form the commmand and  7 the data that are processed by the commands? Insisting t4 upon this fundamental design flaw has nothing to do 5 with being not open minded but with quality criteria o) which you learn at every good university.s  2 Regarding the rating of shell / CLI as pure taste 8 doesn't take into account that completeness of built-in 5 functions to access OS services (and other important u9 information) and string processing are a major criteria.  8 Even with the way the user enters commands can be rated 9 according to mesurable criteria e.g. how many keystrokes l7 are necessary, how easy are they memorisable (which is i; related to the consistency), how powerful are the commands l8 i.e. how many commands do you need to accomplish a task.  3 Letting the shell expand the parameters is another d1 fundamental design pitfal which can be discussed a without introducing taste.  7 My impression is that DCL excells with completeness in l7 accessing OS services and e.g. string handling. Do you o6 think that UNIX shell(s) are comparable in quality on  these areas?   --  ? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, g@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequenceg   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 10:54:46 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?) Message-ID: <Sr2uPU5R8gbR@elias.decus.ch>e  e In article <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-S9xTg8o0s0q6@localhost>, djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) writes:18 > On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:55:21 UTC, "David J. Dachtera"   > <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote: > 
 > snipped... n >  >> iK >> ....and if you don't have another computer running, your screwed withoutd >> the hard-copy.t > F > True Dave but that's why everybody/household _has_ to have at least E > two. I can't remember a Win9x/NT install upgrade I've done at home tC > where I haven't needed access to the Internet to get a fix, bios S > upgrade or driver. > M How true. I would have never got my NT box online (1997) without my laptop tou ask for assistance.e  O The same is currently true for SuSE 8.0. It refuses to bring up the network andrL I need a boatload of patches to Yast to be able to configure it. It's eitherD burn a CD time or install 7.n to get those patches onto the syystem.  A Nah, given the quotes from Linus, I'll scrap Linux altogether :-)  __
 Paul Sture SwitzerlandI   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 12:13:30 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)t$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?) Message-ID: <ogGvH6qjkgkr@elias.decus.ch>m  b In article <Xns922D74DFFA78Cacsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>, Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net> writes:; > "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>i > enlightened us with 7 > news:200206141312.g5EDCJaM008627@cryptofortress.com: t > & >> On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, Atlant Schmidt( >> <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:  >> s >>>Brass Christof wrote: >> k	 >> <snip>  >> i2 >>>By the way, in VMS, can you get a list of files2 >>>listed one-filename-per-line, as you might want$ >>>for raw material for a .COM file? >> l >> $ DIR/COLUMNS=1 > 8 > Hmmm.... I prefer (to get the directory spec included) >  > $ DIR/NOHEAD > 8 > but is there a way to supress the "Total of XX files." > line other than to use pipe ?  > * > $ pipe dir/nohead | search sys$input ";" >    $ DIR/NOHEAD/NOTRAIL/COLUMNS=1 __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandt   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:46:56 +0200m' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>n$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D0B2930.DED13D0D@spam.not>   Mark Berryman wrote: >  > Atlant Schmidt wrote:a  6 > > Once again, I don't understand your question. What9 > > part of * and ? don't you understand? And if you wanta9 > > more sophisticated searching, pipe the output to youra? > > favorite grep and select the desired files with full regexpr9 > > capabilies. Between grepping things "in" and grepping < > > things "out" (with -v), you'd have complete flexibility.0 > > In what way would you consider VMS superior? > H > And here you have just proven one of my major issues with Unix.  Unix,A > quite frankly, was designed by programmers for programmers.  TodG > effectively use Unix, one simply must be a programmer.  I can't countaJ > the number of times the answer to the question "how do you do X on Unix"G > is "Simple, a few lines of code in [awk|sed|perl|shell|etc) will takeiH > care of it".  All of these languages are designed to be easy to parse,J > not easy to read (or write) and it takes programming skills to use them.J > Regexp is just so much garbage to anyone who doesn't use it on some kind > of a regular basis.h > J > Now, I really don't want to get into a discussion as to whether a systemI > administrator should also be a programmer.  I will state, however, that F > it is much nicer to admin a system where I don't have to roll my ownG > tool whenever I want to do something.  And THAT is the Unix paradigm, I > "we give you all the low-level tools, its up to you to figure out whichtA > ones you need for any given task and how to put them together".h > I > There are reasons Unix is popular in schools.  Oddly enough, those same-I > reasons are why Windows had little difficulty replacing Unix in so many(@ > different places regardless of Windows' technical inferiority.  ; I personally don't refuse to put things together but it is p= easier if the parts conform to some common design principles.   = OTOH it would be a major forward for society if people learn eB how to use computers efficiently beyond the ready made solutions. F This again is easier if systems are based on common design principles.    F > I haven't read it, never needed to.  Unix has no sanity checks worthC > speaking of in its filesystem.  If a programmer passes a "string"aH > containing a filename by value, rather than by reference, for example,J > the Unix filesystem will happily create a file containg whatever garbageH > characters that resolves to rather than generating an error.  I do NOT1 > consider that a proper way for an OS to behave.e > G > I was literally sitting next to a programmer who made this particularaH > mistake.  In his case, the memory that actually got referenced for theH > filename contained a byte with a value of 42 followed by a byte with aH > value of 0.  And, because such things are done far more by reflex thanE > by thinking about it he then used ls to find the bad file and rm to2J > delete it.  Of course, 42 happens to be the ascii value of * so he typedE > rm -f * before suddenly realizing what that was really going to do.o   :-)t   -- e? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, r@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequences   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:59:50 +0200b' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D0B2C36.86D4DDF0@spam.not>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:e > G > > Do we need multiline command editing? I chose a smaller font to letDE > > the command line fit into the window or define a short logical tor$ > > reduce the number of characters. > 0 > No matter how many characters you can fit on a4 > line (and something around 200 to 300 seems like a8 > practical maximum with todays fonts/screens/eyeballs),6 > one can always find a longer command line that needs
 > editing. > 0 > I used to run into this problem *ALL THE TIME*. > on VMS using my standard 132-column windows;1 > the fact that the tcshell can do this correctlyh+ > *WITHOUT* fiddling window widths and font 6 > sizes is one of the things I'm most appreciative of. > * > Yes, IMNSHO VMS *DEFINIITELY* needs this
 > feature!  9 Okay you can have it. But we forgot with this discussion  6 that this is a concrete restriction of an implemented 4 feature but not a *design* flaw. VMS would still be 5 the same if multiline command editing were available.    >  > Atlant   --  ? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, i@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencet   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Jun 2002 18:51:32 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?- Message-ID: <87sn3o3jd7.fsf@prep.synonet.com>i  4 Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:  C > > Do we need multiline command editing? I chose a smaller font toaF > > let the command line fit into the window or define a short logical' > > to reduce the number of characters.C  YD > No matter how many characters you can fit on a line (and something> > around 200 to 300 seems like a practical maximum with todaysD > fonts/screens/eyeballs), one can always find a longer command line > that needs editing.i  /@ > I used to run into this problem *ALL THE TIME* on VMS using myD > standard 132-column windows; the fact that the tcshell can do thisE > correctly *WITHOUT* fiddling window widths and font sizes is one ofG& > the things I'm most appreciative of.  e3 > Yes, IMNSHO VMS *DEFINIITELY* needs this feature!t  D And to add to the insult, TECO has been able to correctly edit multiC line commands from *BEFORE* VMS shipped. So it is not really a hugel advance in anything!  B Be even nicer if the EXEC port that was sort of promised in 83 had a bit of progress as well...   -- 6< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.a@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:37:56 +0200 ' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> $ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?( Message-ID: <3D0B2714.E5FEA23E@spam.not>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:c >  > Brass Christof wrote:a > B > > > > 1.How do you display the three time stamps of a UNIX file? > > >dE > > If you want to prevent this [format changing] you get yet anothers > > format.r > " > Which, of course, *IS* parsable. >  > > [3.] How do you mimicl > >a > > $ DIRECTORY ALPHA* > 	 > Simple:b > 
 >   ls ALPHA*A > ? > The shell globs the filespec, expanding this to, for example,  > ; >   ls ALPHA_IS_BORN  ALPHA_GOES_FASTER  ALPHA_BECOMES_DEAD& > 8 > and ls then outputs the directory information for each > of those files.    Not only ;-)9 The contents off all subdirectories fitting this spec is b- also displayed which could be rather anoying.u  A > > > > 4.How do you accomplish a fixed width display format when-. > > > >   showing the contents of a directory? > > >a6 > > > Once again, I don't see your point, nor do I see8 > > > where VMS is any improvment. Unix at least has the< > > > courtesy to put the varying-width stuff (the filename)8 > > > at the right side of the display; VMS embeds it at8 > > > the left where you have to work hard to get at it.9 > > > (You don't really think it's a fixed-width filenameB > > > field, do you???)u > >a > > I do. It is. > 0 > No, it only is *UP TO A POINT*. Then, IIRC, it5 > jumps wider in increments of 8 columns. It's a realS0 > PITA to process directories that contain files3 > with both long and short filenames. Unless you're , > going to tell me that there's *YET ANOTHER. > SELDOM-USED QUALIFIER* that I need to apply!     /WIDTH           /WIDTH=(keyword[,...])  >      Formats the width of the display. If you specify only oneA      keyword, you can omit the parentheses. Possible keywords are       as follows:  F      DISPLAY=n  Specifies the total width of the display as an integerC                 in the range 1 to 256 and defaults to zero (setting F                 the display width to the terminal width). If the totalD                 width of the display exceeds the terminal width, the.                 information will be truncated.  D      FILENAME=n Specifies the width of the file name field; defaultsA                 to 19 characters. If you request another piece ofeD                 information to be displayed along with the file nameF                 in each column, file names that exceed the n parameterF                 cause the line to wrap after the file name field. (See(                 the /COLUMNS qualifier.)  C      OWNER=n    Specifies the width of the owner field; defaults to A                 20 characters. If the owner's user identification E                 code (UIC) exceeds the length of the owner field, theb.                 information will be truncated.  D      SIZE=n     Specifies the width of the size field; defaults to 6G                 characters on systems prior to OpenVMS Version 6.0; the F                 default is 7 characters on OpenVMS Version 6.0 systemsE                 or higher. If the file size exceeds the length of then?                 size field, the field is filled with asterisks.   G Basically there is no good solution if a directory contains very short iE and very long characters. VMS at least lets you do what is possible. p8 With the width of the size field VMS offers the optimum.D The display subqualifier is what helps us finally to always achieve - a fixed width. This is thoughful engineering!.  8 Comparing this with UNIX' ls is a little bit ridiculous.  1 > > 5.How do you avoid prefixing each filename byr3 > >   the path if you want a directory listing fromt4 > >   a directory that is not the current directory? > > " > > $ DIRECTORY DEVICE:[DIRECTORY] > / > Oh, I'm sure there's some clever way of doingt > it, but I'd just:: >  > pushd <path_stuff> > ls -1I > popd > 5 > Have you got a push-directory/pop-directory featurea3 > in DCL yet? If not, I could probably find my .COMn' > file that used to do that for me. :-)u   Okay.r  3 But it shows that the ls command is inconsistently  8 displaying the path if it is not the current directory. 0 Why isn't the path displayed even in that case?   Why is it displayed if it isn't?  ; To work around is normally possible but not very efficient.e   -- "? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL,  @ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 07:52:30 -0400a, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <aef9vd02pai@enews1.newsguy.com>  ? "Atlant Schmidt" <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote in message ( news:3D0A1E21.F55916FC@mindspring.com...: > Kinda screws up the local (on terminal) display, though,7 > doesn't it? That makes this a pretty poor alternativey/ > to either SET HOST/LOG or a proper /OUTPUT or * > "tee" facility. But to each his/her own. >    Huh?  L Sorry to jump into this, and I'm sure I'll regret it later -- much better to just lurk around this stuff.  L However, Atlant, I must say it seems to me that some of your questions couldK have been answered by a simple: RTFM.  You certainly did your credibility avL disservice with the questions about single-column directory listings withoutC headers and trailers.  Perhaps you're so comfortable coming up witheG ls,awk,grep,pipe solutions that it never dawned on you that all of thatsK could be handled directly on the $DIR command line.  I'm quite certain thateL your lack of recent VMS experience is partly responsible for making you look so out of place.  J As for your post above, in response to Sharon, how does this "screw up the local (on terminal) display"?t  4 Sharon's one gaff was to exclude the /USER qualifer:  ! $ DEFINE /USER SYS$OUTPUT LTA100:t $ somecommandherer  L This sends the output to the printer and the terminal display is fine: thereL will be none, which is the whole point in sending the output somewhere else.F Subsequent commands issued in the same DCL session will display on theJ terminal again.  Your original question referred to the /OUTPUT and /PRINTH qualifiers, and Sharon's method mimics those qualifiers.  It seems to meK that you're retreating and trying to reword your challenge now to somethingd else: mimic a "tee" facility.s  I As for "orthogonality", perhaps you (or the person you challenged) shouldi1 better define what you mean when using that term.n  H Is it that all commands should provide those qualifiers in order for theI command set to be orthogonal?  That hardly seems reasonable, and yet your.G original request for a list of commands implementing /OUTPUT and /PRINTcJ indicates that might be your definition.  Is it really important to have a $SHOW TIME /PRINT?  I Or, does orthogonality mean that all commands which implement /OUTPUT andaI /PRINT use those qualifiers to produce the same behavior?  If that's yourdL challenge then I'd say you're toast.  Show me two or more VMS commands whereG the /OUTPUT and/or /PRINT qualifiers behave differently.  (In fact, KenlE Fairfield already has shown that all DCL commands which implement thetK qualifiers produce the same behavior.  Third-party applications which don'tnK implement the qualifier appropriately can hardly be turned into a criticismy of the operating system.)i  G So, exactly which of your *original* challenges have you not received a  satisfactory response to yet?0   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Jun 2002 19:51:09 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>I Subject: Re: Fastest CD-R or CD-RW capabilities for burning under OpenVMS@- Message-ID: <87bsac3glu.fsf@prep.synonet.com>T  ( jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) writes:  B > It appears we're going to be doing a fair amount of archiving toD > CD-R disks in order to better preserve data currently stored on upC > to 14 year old DAT archive tapes that are slowly becoming faulty.y      ^^dF > The test systems are an MV3100 with a Yamaha 4416, works OK at a maxC > of 2X using CDRECORD and a PWS600au with a Yamaha 6416 on a KZPAAr- > SCSI card that ran at 6X with 100% success.    E > Given the amount of data we'll be archiving, I'm looking at gettingt> > a faster burner; this was triggered by a Q announcement of aE > 40x/12x/40x unit (IDE only, unfortunately) for use on the PWS600au.pD > I'd like to find out what the fastest rates others have managed toE > burn CD-Rs on VMS Alpha systems, and what drives they used in doinge> > that.  Also, if an IDE burner is in fact usable on the 600auB > (enhanced version with bootable IDE CDROM drive), which of those > would be recommended?   E I guess you don't want this to be a permanant ocupation? Do it right.?? Use DLTs and IBM cartridges and be sure you have them for good.2 Or close to that.   D One day, we may know the life of some CD-R disks... You do know what@ your disks realy are don't you? And what they will be next week?   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.m@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 12:04:31 GMTm From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGtI Subject: Re: Fastest CD-R or CD-RW capabilities for burning under OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <00A0F7CB.BE151152@SendSpamHere.ORG>  f In article <cc5619f2.0206142025.5b37c62d@posting.google.com>, jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) writes: >Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann <vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de> wrote in message news:<00A0F767.BD11B828.334@CHCLU.CHEMIE.UNI-KONSTANZ.DE>... >> Hi Rich,d >> ..... >> MF >> I'm using a TEAC 12x IDE-Burner. The burning process works nice, ifG >> you use the "burnproof" switch, that prevents buffer underruns. ThissF >> means that real burning rate a lower than the nominal one (8x-10x). >> oD >> My recommendation: it is the right time to switch to DVD-burning.F >> The drives are cheap enough. They can do both CD-R(W) and DVD-R(W).G >> DVDs have a 6.x-fold capacity than CD's. The speed of DVD-burning isa8 >> 16x for DVD-R and 8x for DVD-RW (Pioneer DVR-A03/04). >> S >> Hope this helps >> Eberhardv >u
 >Eberhard,F >     thanks for the info.  I noticed your posts about the DVD burningE >software you've built and to be honest I'm considering that for homemG >use; that writing speed is nice too.  Unfortunately for work we have a E >wide variety of systems with CDROM drives that could reasonably needdF >to read the archives, and we can't/won't be upgrading them all to DVD >for quite a while.  >bD >     Using the IDE interface for something useful is appealing.  DoG >you actually prefer using IDE burners over SCSI for reasons other thane? >the price differential?  And do you think its possible to makeaF >effective use of a really fast (like the 40X burner from Compaq) on aC >PWD 60au Enhanced like mine, either SCSI or IDE as needed?  Thanks  >very much for the info. >y >Rich Jordan  D I think he prefers the IDE interface over the SCSI interface because  of the lack of SCSI DVD writers.  e --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             k5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" n   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Jun 2002 07:41:35 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)nI Subject: Re: Fastest CD-R or CD-RW capabilities for burning under OpenVMSr3 Message-ID: <Z+4W1IrleHJv@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  P In article <00A0F7CB.BE151152@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  F > I think he prefers the IDE interface over the SCSI interface because" > of the lack of SCSI DVD writers.  0 Some people shy away from extreme challenges :-)   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 10:15:57 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)r4 Subject: Re: howto create self-extracting zip files?) Message-ID: <q7tI60NsH4dD@elias.decus.ch>   ] In article <3D091D2C.B77781BD@compaq.com>, Wayne Morrison <Wayne.Morrison@compaq.com> writes:e  O > The initial version of CDSA for OpenVMS is not extensible.  However, the CDSA P > architecture is designed to be extensible, and we are planning to support thisM > extensibility in a future release of OpenVMS.  That said, the CDSA shippingnQ > with OpenVMS V7.3-1 comes with both RSA and SSL (OpenSSL) cryptographic serviceb > providers. > N > Smart cards, biometric and similar devices could be supported via additionalQ > "plug-in" modules.  Some of these could come as standard with OpenVMS CDSA, andlP > other might be provided by third parties.  CDSA on OpenVMS V7.3-1 does not yetM > support the extensibility necessary for this to happen, as indicated above.  > P > As for a Certificate Authority, and management of certificates... we'd be veryP > interested in feedback on what you expect to need in this area.  CDSA does notN > include a CA, and certificates within CDSA are handled programmatically, not > interactively. >  > 	Wayne Morrison  > 	CDSA Project Leader > 	OpenVMS Security groups >    Wayne,  % What plans are there for this on VMS?x  F For others, Not having heard of CDSA before, I managed to find this at* http://www.tru64unix.compaq.com/unix/cdsa/  / "CDSA( Common Data Security Architecture) R3.12o  nG CDSA is a multi-platform, industry standard security infrastructure. ItnN provides a standards-based, stable programming interface that applications canJ use to access operating system security services, such as cryptography andL other public key operations. These requests are serviced by a set of plug-inH security service modules (SPIs), which can be supplemented or changed as' business needs and technologies evolve.i  J Note this is an Advance Developer's Kit and is provided for evaluation andN experimentation purposes. While we welcome your feedback, this kit is providedI on an as-is basis and is not a supported part of the Tru64 UNIX OperatingcF System. It should not be used for critical or production applications.  1 Note: This kit requires Tru64 UNIX V5.1 or 5.1A."d __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandb   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:10:02 -0600 (MDT) " From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com>. Subject: Re: Interesting approach to marketingF Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0206150858380.8928-100000@athena.csdco.com>  , On Sat, 15 Jun 2002, Terry C. Shannon wrote:   > L > "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message8 > news:200206141350.g5EDoPFB009976@cryptofortress.com...< > > On Fri, 14 Jun 2002, John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> wrote:9 > > >http://www.sun-vbots.com/cd-html2/comic2/page04a.htmt > > >m4 > > >Either you are with Sun or you are a Carnibyte! > >e) > > Accoring to the bottom of the page...  > >oB > > "SUN INTERNAL CONFIDENTIAL FOR SUN CHANNEL PARTNERS, SUN SALES+ > > REPRESENTATIVES, SUn SYSTEM ENGINEERS".e > >  > I > And, of course, anyone else who is gulled and duped by some of the most $ > insipid advertising on the planet. >  >  >    Terry,  E The bizarre Sun Comix made me think that one of the problems with VMS/G acceptance is literacy.  People don't want to bother to read nor write.n   John   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:35:50 +0200T' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>s& Subject: Re: Linus' comments about VMS( Message-ID: <3D0B34A6.855A8EC7@spam.not>   G Everhart wrote:e > : > I have to wonder if Linus last saw VMS at, say, V2 or V3@ > back when max filename size was 9.3 characters, all uppercase?> > That would tend to make a unix person unhappy. That was also< > before DCL acquired many of its control constructs so that< > constructing loops and the like was rather a pain and many: > system commands were compat mode stuff so you got to use3 > DCL except where you had to use PIP, and so on... A > and you might not even have had a good fullscreen editor unlessl; > you knew where to get a copy of VTEDIT and knew somethinge> > about how to use it. If nobody ever bothered to show him howA > to shorten commands with symbols, and how to define these (manyn: > casual VMS users never saw this) VMS would have seemed a9 > verbose, pedantic system with many oddball limitations.r > F > Even during the 1990s there were plenty of folks who had no idea howD > to define a foreign command, and the learning of assign vs. defineH > is to some a conceptual trap. There are equivalent traps in other OSs,G > but a casual approacher to VMS back in that era would have noted many H > warts (and would not yet have seen the security fixes that began to beI > serious by V4.4 or so, and may if unlucky enough have lived through theP/ > hideous XQP corruption bugs of 4.0 and 4.1...i > G > My take is that someone who has not seen VMS on an alpha probably hassK > too old an impression to be useful. I might equivalently make disparaging J > remarks about Unix based on experience with V6 back on the old pdp11/70,H > back when the unix filesystem had monstrous fragmentation problems andM > disk drivers had comments in them along the lines of "we'll just ignore anymK > errors that occur because we can't figure out ECC". (yes, I read a numbere > of these back then.) > L > Old comments like those are not useful to those uninterested in going back$ > to the old Teletype console era... >  > Glenn Everhart  D A smart person analyses the concepts and makes a difference between E what's actual there and what will probably there in the near future. iE He should taken into account that VMS is 10 years younger than UNIX. tE When I started with VMS in 1987 it was like being hit by a lightning  F flash: the first system of real power that has been designed like the  Mac.   -- p? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, s@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencea   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 09:59:30 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) 5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...f) Message-ID: <ojANcsL4SFEJ@elias.decus.ch>s  | In article <3D09039B.7A65@this.mailaddress.is.invalid>, Michiel Erens <I.dont.want.spam@this.mailaddress.is.invalid> writes:  
 <big snip># (sorry I refuse to repeat that rot)  >  > I don't think he likes VMS.p >   M Woah. Serious major credibility loss. I refuse to say what I really think :-(    BSD here I come. u __
 Paul Sture Switzerlande   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 10:32:55 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)M5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...f) Message-ID: <jS3DIBIoWYht@elias.decus.ch>   l In article <7%9O8.8319$9b.534561@typhoon.austin.rr.com>, LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie) writes:4 > Richard Banks (rbanks_@_arel_com_au.nospam) wrote: > :eE > : VMS ONLY runs on Alphas - you have to have an Alpha to use VMS.  o > :  > VMS still runs on VAXes. >   5 Not forgetting Intel with an appropriate emulator :-)e __
 Paul Sture SwitzerlandV   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 2002 02:08 CDTz' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) 5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ... - Message-ID: <15JUN200202081498@gerg.tamu.edu>o  6 Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes...) }"DIRECTORY /NOHEADER /NOTRAILER" takes ah5 }wee bit longer. (Yes, I *KNOW* you can abbreviate ith }somewhat.)  }  }Atlanth  3 "DIRECTORY /NOHEADER /NOTRAILER" -> "DIR/NOHE/NOTR"T  3 So a reduction of 56 and 2/3 percent is "somewhat"?N  < By the way, how exactly is anyone supposed to determine that9 when they want to see if something is in a file what theyc= really want to do is "get a regular expression and print" it,i$ which is then abbreviated to "grep"?  @ How is someone supposed to know what the programmer's dog's name9 was, as that is the origin of the command "biff"? And why : wasn't that abbreviated to "bf" to make it match (most of): the rest of the single word commands which are abbreviated to their first two consonants?   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 12:44:47 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)r5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...e) Message-ID: <lfMNxYR2yd2J@elias.decus.ch>w  c In article <WL1$vRH4TfSd@eisner.encompasserve.org>, frey@encompasserve.org (Sharon Guthrie) writes:sq > In article <7zbO8.226935$Kp.20395686@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  >> rA >> "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in messagee: >> news:cf15391e.0206131212.4095fa2c@posting.google.com... >>> ( >>> Linus Torvalds is certainly no moron >> aN >> I agree.  But he *is* a Unix bigot and clearly blind to significant aspectsI >> of OS design and utility.  Not that we're completely unacquainted witho& >> bigotry in our neck of the woods... > J > 	He may be *very* sharp, but I think he's gotten himself rutted into an Q > academic/development environment and hasn't come into the real world much.  As  N > someone else pointed out, his saying that VMS is primarily used in embedded N > systems is pretty wild.  All of us here know that VMS is used frequently in G > banking, stock floors (well, until recently), emergency dispatching, t+ > manufacturing, business financials, etc. n >   N That sums it up pretty well. His comments about a stream of bytes being betterL than structured files demonstrate that he has an academic / theoretical biasO and no real experience of turning out solid commercial applications which run a 	 business.w  L Every decent OS I have worked on in the business worldhas had indexed files,) without resorting to 3rd party databases.c __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandr   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:26:33 +0200 ' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>e5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...e( Message-ID: <3D0B3279.3DA1C145@spam.not>   Christopher Smith wrote: >  > > -----Original Message-----2 > > From: Brass Christof [mailto:welcome@spam.not] > < > > But he stated that *VMS* is mainly for "embedded usage".? > > Especially with your post it seems that he has a problem inh2 > > understanding for what VMS is used in reality. > = > He said something like "large embedded," by which I assumedlC > he meant things like assembly line control, scientific instrument > > control, data gathering, etc, etc.  The kinds of things that' > PDP-11s were so prominently used for.y  < Thanks for that clarification. This was the first time that 3 I read this kind of usage of "embedded systems" ;-)i   --  ? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL,  @ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencea   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:44:59 +0200 ' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>a5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...T( Message-ID: <3D0B60FB.805EF843@spam.not>   Paul Sture wrote:y > e > In article <WL1$vRH4TfSd@eisner.encompasserve.org>, frey@encompasserve.org (Sharon Guthrie) writes:Ns > > In article <7zbO8.226935$Kp.20395686@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:h > >>C > >> "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in messageo< > >> news:cf15391e.0206131212.4095fa2c@posting.google.com... > >>> * > >>> Linus Torvalds is certainly no moron > >>P > >> I agree.  But he *is* a Unix bigot and clearly blind to significant aspectsK > >> of OS design and utility.  Not that we're completely unacquainted with:( > >> bigotry in our neck of the woods... > >eP > >       He may be *very* sharp, but I think he's gotten himself rutted into anR > > academic/development environment and hasn't come into the real world much.  AsO > > someone else pointed out, his saying that VMS is primarily used in embedded O > > systems is pretty wild.  All of us here know that VMS is used frequently inoH > > banking, stock floors (well, until recently), emergency dispatching,, > > manufacturing, business financials, etc. > >O > P > That sums it up pretty well. His comments about a stream of bytes being betterN > than structured files demonstrate that he has an academic / theoretical biasQ > and no real experience of turning out solid commercial applications which run aQ > business.   E This is incredible nonsense. No ever slightly academic or theoreticalu	 educated iH person would regard a stream of bytes as helpful in any respect. Stating that  @ a stream of bytes is a good thing per se reveals a sound lack of understanding  what data processing really is.   O > Every decent OS I have worked on in the business world has had indexed files,m+ > without resorting to 3rd party databases.   * And that's what is taught at universities.   > Paul Sture
 > Switzerland    -- e? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, l@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------    Date: 15 Jun 2002 19:08:15 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: Open Letter to HP- Message-ID: <87ofec3ilc.fsf@prep.synonet.com>c  * Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes:  E > > Run an ad on TV like that around several different types of shows36 > > to catch the target audience - senior IT managers, > > CIO/CTO/COO/CFO/CEO types.  < But what is needed is not a targeted ad. Not one little bit.  A > Which is exactly why mass advertising should be considered. ThelF > media go to almost extreme lengths to categorize the viewers, and inF > essence, you do NOT need to capture a big proportion (percentage) ofC > certain groups, precisely due to the amount of investment control. > they have.  C What is needed is a seed campain to get credibility and notice. YouuE are expecting to sell *ZERO* from this directly. But you are steppingmC up to the public plate and telling everyone that you are there, and>/ serious about getting their money and business.   ? So when they say "But that is dead now isn't it?" your reply is C "Didn't you watch the F1 GP last night? There where 3 ads on then."s     -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 12:16:18 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)y0 Subject: Re: PWS500au PowerStorm 3D30 DECWindows) Message-ID: <8U7Ymf198cvy@elias.decus.ch>w  H In article <B92FDEC0.153B1%edl@euronet.nl>, EdL <edl@euronet.nl> writes: > Hi,y > + > Still having problems with screen update.r= > VMS version is 7.1-2, I have installed all ECO's for Motif.k, > I have tried several settings on the 3D30. >   N Well I didn't read them in details, but I received ECO notifications yesterdayB via email about some new kits which addressed Powerstorm problems. >  > = > in article 0033000067643824000002L042*@MHS, WILLIAM WEBB ate2 > WWEBB1@email.usps.gov wrote on 11-06-2002 22:29: >  >> p >>> Hi,  >>> F >>> I have the following configuration a PWS500au with PowerStorm 3D30# >>> card and a 14" digital monitor.k >> 'B >> Here's a link to an Ask the Wizard article about 3D30 settings. >> -> >> Without knowing the details of what monitor you're using, I- >> can't tell you how the 3D30 should be set.n >> e5 >> http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/wiz_2041.htmlr >> gJ >>> Now having troubles with DECWindows, the screens are corrupt and green  >>> lines appears over the text. >> I' >> What version of VMS are you running?u >> And DECwindows/MOTIF?9 >> There *have* been DW-MOTIF ECOs- perhaps you need one.s >>  1 >> Again, there's not enough information to tell.  >> : >> PRODUCT SHOW HISTORYl >>> E >>> In OPA0: console mode (without DECWindows) I cannot use edit/edt.eI >>> The screen updates verys slow and line for line. And I cannot use the85 >>> keypad. Trying to set term/vt100 was no solution.c >> rI >> You're not going to get a VMS command-line editor running except on ane5 >> ANSI type terminal device and OPA0:, alas, is not.i >> aG >> Outside of getting your DECwindows/MOTIF running properly, the otherfC >> option is to hook a VT up to the serial port of the 433 and then ( >> execute a SET CONSOLE SERIAL on OPA0: >> e >> HTH >> v	 >> WWWebb  >> r >>>  >>> Please any help is welcome.c >>>  >>> Regards, Edwin >> l >> edl@euronet.nle >  -- o __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandd   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:58:39 +0200 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> Subject: Re: Quorum disk hangr5 Message-ID: <aefgnp$6iukg$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>r  H Hmm, officially a quorum disk must be "local" to every machine that usesH it. In a two node SCSI cluster only one node can thus have a quorum diskJ definition in sysgen (unless the disk is on an HSx). Furthermore there may% be only one quorum disk in a cluster.eJ You write "the quorum disk on that node is mounted" seems to indicate thatF there is one quorumdisk, and that one node mounts it locally without a problemAH and that the remote node has suddenly problems with it. Is that correct?K Assumption 2: the customer wants to have one quorum disk because it is felt- that$ it allows failure of either machine?  H There is no supported solution with a quorum disk for the second wish. A
 third nodeH may sometimes help, depending on specifications. A two-node cluster with each itsB own quorum disk will do the trick but is definitely not supported.   Hans  : Rob Harrison <robert.harrison@ch.abb.com> wrote in message7 news:df79e57d.0206120032.1b8f4ff8@posting.google.com...o* > Hi all, I wonder if someone can help me. >oF > I'm trying to support a customer in the Middle East who has an Alpha@ > cluster. He rebooted one node and suddenly started getting the > following messages:u >U- > %CNXMAN Using remote acces for quorum disk%o > ...c- > %CNXMAN Using local access for quorum disk%t > ...e2 > %CNXMAN Established "connection" to quorum disk% >n > then >- > %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 10:55:56%e$ > Message from user SYSTEM on HIHM28 > STARTUP, Mounting QUORUM DISK. >> > then >R > %OPCOM 5-JUN-2002 11:00:02%e/ > %CSP-W-QDNOTMNT, please mount the quorum disk2 >0$ > which is repeated every 5 minutes. >2E > The other node is running OK and when he does a sho dev he sees the-& > Quorum disk on that node is mounted. > F > He is refusing to reboot the other node as he is scared that he will > lose the entire system.c >oG > Does anyone have any idea how to kick this beast into life. I suspect @ > that a simple cluster reboot will do the trick but I need some& > ammunition to convince the customer. > 	 > Thanks,  >N > RobA   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Jun 2002 19:14:10 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>- Subject: Re: RMS: $OPEN paradigm (read/write)y- Message-ID: <87k7p03ibh.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  / JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:o  @ > Files will be closed only at end of image, when a "dump_cache"? > command is issued, or when the library containing the datasetnB > information is closed. (eg: all files defined in modules in that > library will be closed).  <E > I might put in commands to specifically close one dataset, or later F > on, perhaps an "inactivity" timer where a file would be closed after) > a certain amount of time of inactivity.   C This sounds like you want to map the file, rather than doing normalt3 IO. Not planning on exceding 2^62 bytes are you? :)l   -- e< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Jun 2002 06:49:04 -0700+ From: daniel-news@haxx.se (Daniel Stenberg)mD Subject: Re: Secure HTTP client app buildable under OpenVMS/OpenSSL?; Message-ID: <16d13a8.0206150549.1039174@posting.google.com>a  > jlw@psulias.psu.edu (j.lance wilkinson, (814) 865-1818) wrote:  B > 	I've used a more recent version prepared by the original porterH > 	to VMS, Nico Baggus in the Netherlands.  Does exactly what I needed, H > 	allowing my CGI scripts written in DCL to look like a secure browser B > 	connection to yet another web server running elsewhere.  Check  >  > 		http://cURL.haxx.set > D > 	for information.  Nico's current release available thru that siteG > 	is v7.9.5 dated 11 March 2002, which pretty well matches the versionnG > 	that Nico sent me on 11 February, so I'm guessing that it's the sameV > 	as mine.a  D Nico is still very much involved and he continuously makes sure thatB the main curl sources still compile and build on VMS. The recently@ released curl version 7.9.8 should also build fine thanks to his input.   Daniel Stenberg - curl dude    ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:48:34 +0000 (UTC)r From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk; Subject: Re: SSH v2 (was Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS...)n+ Message-ID: <aefnki$977$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>f   In article <craig.berry-D5C343.14462614062002@news.directvinternet.com>, "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> writes: >In article > ><craig.berry-DE7718.13465107062002@news.directvinternet.com>,F > "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote: >eH >> In article <adqst1$am3$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk 	 >> wrote:  >> sO >> > I believe Multinet and TCPWARE will shortly (if they do not already) have  ' >> > version 2 SSH clients and servers.u >> CJ >> v2 is shipping in Multinet.  It looks like it should be in TCPWare any  >> day now.o >>  Q >> > Dec TCPIP services though, despite frequent requests, seems not to have any e, >> > firm plans for providing SSH version 2. >> eG >> A year ago they had no plans.  Now they have plans, but perhaps not u >> much more than that yet.  >iI >I just noticed on the Process Software site today that they now have an e5 >SSH product for TCP/IP Services 4.2 and later.  See rH ><http://www.process.com/tcpip/ssh.html>.  So that's good news, but the F >cost of an add-on will probably be a real difficulty for some of the A >places, like universities, that are most eager to implement SSH I >everywhere.  M Yes cost maybe an issue. On the otherhand HPQ's DEC TCPIP Services version of-K SSH v2 when it eventually appears is very unlikely to be backported to worklI with UCX V4.2 or VMS 6.2. Certainly we have a number of systems which forD) various reasons are stuck at that level. cO I'll probably be contacting our local distributor Essential Computing in the UKrO to inquire about the product and whether there are any educational discounts on  Monday.Y  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University M   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:26:37 -0700a# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>V; Subject: RE: SSH v2 (was Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS...) 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEBJFDAA.tom@kednos.com>:   >-----Original Message-----uA >From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk [mailto:david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk]t& >Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 8:49 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com< >Subject: Re: SSH v2 (was Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS...) >  >r >In articles> ><craig.berry-D5C343.14462614062002@news.directvinternet.com>,F >"Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> writes: >>In article? >><craig.berry-DE7718.13465107062002@news.directvinternet.com>,tG >> "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote:  >>H >>> In article <adqst1$am3$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
 >>> wrote: >>>oA >>> > I believe Multinet and TCPWARE will shortly (if they do notr >already) have( >>> > version 2 SSH clients and servers. >>>oJ >>> v2 is shipping in Multinet.  It looks like it should be in TCPWare any >>> day now. >>>oA >>> > Dec TCPIP services though, despite frequent requests, seems- >not to have any- >>> > firm plans for providing SSH version 2.u >>>(G >>> A year ago they had no plans.  Now they have plans, but perhaps nots >>> much more than that yet. >>I >>I just noticed on the Process Software site today that they now have anr5 >>SSH product for TCP/IP Services 4.2 and later.  See2H >><http://www.process.com/tcpip/ssh.html>.  So that's good news, but theF >>cost of an add-on will probably be a real difficulty for some of theA >>places, like universities, that are most eager to implement SSHg
 >>everywhere.> > C >Yes cost maybe an issue. On the otherhand HPQ's DEC TCPIP Servicesi >version ofoL >SSH v2 when it eventually appears is very unlikely to be backported to workJ >with UCX V4.2 or VMS 6.2. Certainly we have a number of systems which for) >various reasons are stuck at that level.t< >I'll probably be contacting our local distributor Essential >Computing in the UKC >to inquire about the product and whether there are any educational 
 >discounts on  >Monday.  ' Just curious why you don't use openssh?t >i >David Webbs >VMS and Unix team leader  >CCSSt >Middlesex Universityk >o >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.t; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).m@ >Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/2002 >r ---n& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/2002w   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 2002 01:39 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)p Subject: Re: unix historyS- Message-ID: <15JUN200201393798@gerg.tamu.edu>-   bill@cs.scranton.edu writes.../ }In article <3D09ECEA.898151E7@mindspring.com>,n6 } Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes: }|> Nic Clews wrote: }|> & }|> > UNIX has only 67 years to go :-) }|> > $ }|> > VMS has another 290 CENTURIES. }|> 6 }|> Actually, much of the excrement's going to hit the@ }|> ventilator on Tuesday, January 19, 2038 at GMT 03:14:07 UTC.= }|> The next second, the clock spills over into bit <31>, ands8 }|> we'll get to see how many C applications (on *MANY*,- }|> *MANY* operating systems *INCLUDING* VMS)e2 }|> mistakenly treated time_t as a signed integer. } F }Yes, it will.  A quick scan of Linux and FreeBSD shows it to be alongC }on both of them.  Because of commonality of much of the codebase I C }would bet that OpenBSD and NetBSD are the same.  Hmmmm.  What doesg }MSDN say??  :-) }  }bill    On the one hand:  * From an article on MSDN written in 1998...  4 [...]the C Run-Time Libraries documentation (see the;   Visual C++ Programmer's Guide in the MSDN Library Online)gB   pretty strongly implies that negative values in time_t variables>   (and therefore times before Jan 1, 1970) aren't allowed. See@   documentation on mktime, which regards earlier times as errorsC   and sets the time_t variable to 1.) A test program Dr. GUI wrote,3=   which used gmtime to convert the time_t, general protectiond8   faulted (GPF) if the parameter to gmtime was negative.  B   But the best news comes from Bret Grinslade, who points out that@   under the 64-bit version of Windows NT, time_t will be definedB   as a 64-bit integer. That's plenty bigit'll work for millions ofA   years. (No, Dr. GUI isn't going to calculate exactly how many.).?   So if you port your code to Windows NT 64 before you run into>   trouble, you'll be fine.  = It strongly implies all over the place that time_t is a plaing= signed long. It is specified as such in their "vcore98" spec.   B It would be easier to find out these things if their web site wereA not completely broken - almost anyplace you go with Netscape 3.03m@ fails to give you the actual information on the page, instead itC says "This Virtual Directory does not allow contents to be listed."y= Idiots. (Because of this, I couldn't get to any of the ".NET" A related pages I tried, and that is what would cover their currentl version of the stuff.)   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 12:08:53 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)u Subject: Re: unix historye) Message-ID: <oMUmVMMuRfcg@elias.decus.ch>h  ` In article <aecv8f$304c$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:0 > In article <3D09ECEA.898151E7@mindspring.com>,7 >  Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:i > |> Nic Clews wrote:n > |> r' > |> > UNIX has only 67 years to go :-)  > |> >% > |> > VMS has another 290 CENTURIES.a > |> h7 > |> Actually, much of the excrement's going to hit thedA > |> ventilator on Tuesday, January 19, 2038 at GMT 03:14:07 UTC. > > |> The next second, the clock spills over into bit <31>, and9 > |> we'll get to see how many C applications (on *MANY*,i. > |> *MANY* operating systems *INCLUDING* VMS)3 > |> mistakenly treated time_t as a signed integer.+ > G > Yes, it will.  A quick scan of Linux and FreeBSD shows it to be alongvD > on both of them.  Because of commonality of much of the codebase ID > would bet that OpenBSD and NetBSD are the same.  Hmmmm.  What does > MSDN say??  :-)n  2 So which of the BSDs would you recommend, and why? __
 Paul Sture Switzerlande   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 08:56:37 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) Q Subject: Re: unix history (was: RE: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham'sh) Message-ID: <5UcsNYHfl5R8@elias.decus.ch>   ` In article <aeak8g$1r3b$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:0 > In article <3D089C8E.B02155A6@mindspring.com>,7 >  Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:a > |> e0 > |> I suspect RT-11 has run out of few as well. > |> > C > I'm not exactly sure as I have never done anythign with RT11 thattC > really cared wether you set the date and time at all, but I think E > this is wrong. I think because of how the date was stored it basicl B > started with 0 being the year 1900.  Of course, it only held two2 > digits and thus had a serious Y2K problem.  :-) B > I also believe the common way to fix it was to use extra bits toC > add another digit. But the official way may have been to move theh > starting date forward. >rK I seem to remember reading an article in the 1970s about how DEC fudged theCL date format on RT-11 to cope with it "running out". Never noticed a thing at	 the time.    A > As I have said, I have never used a Y2Ked version of RT11 but IeA > do remember there being a discussion about it on the pdp11 newss > groups for a while.b >    __
 Paul Sture Switzerland-   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 09:32:18 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)mI Subject: Re: updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMS<) Message-ID: <1uiejBmcRcwE@elias.decus.ch>r  w In article <01KIW7KSL2R896WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes:OJ > Having successfully implemented volume shadowing on my hobbyist system, G > I am looking forward to upgrading the OS.  The documentation on this iH > seems a little dated---these days, one normally boots from CD, mounts C > the disk to be upgraded etc.  The docs talk about "boot from and B8 > perform the upgrade on the single, non-shadowed disk". > ( > What is wrong with the following plan? > % >    o  shut down the system normally  >  >    o  boot from CD > J >    o  MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW the target disk to erase the shadowing-specific + >       information in the SCB (necessary?)t >n  N Good thinking. I did the V7.3 upgrade on my non-shadowed home system last yearJ and didn't think about this step on my first attempt on a shadowed system.  J The V7.3 installation procedure keeled over  with a rather unhelpful errorC message - something like "disk not mounted" because I hadn't done aC MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW beforehand.   I >    o  upgrade this disk normally from the CD as for a non-shadowed diskh > $ >    o  no need for SET VOLUME/LABEL > G >    o  boot from the new disk (will come up as a single-member shadow s >       set) > H >    o  use MOUNT/SHADOW to re-add the other member(s) to the shadow set > I > Two questions:  Is there anything wrong with this plan?  Does one need  E > to MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW the other members (which will be targets of a r7 > shadow copy) before adding them to the upgraded disk?o >  Sounds fine to me. / __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandt   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:41:00 +0200  From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>I Subject: Re: updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMSs& Message-ID: <3D0AEF8C.8070801@home.nl>   Phillip Helbig wrote: J > Having successfully implemented volume shadowing on my hobbyist system, G > I am looking forward to upgrading the OS.  The documentation on this  H > seems a little dated---these days, one normally boots from CD, mounts C > the disk to be upgraded etc.  The docs talk about "boot from and y8 > perform the upgrade on the single, non-shadowed disk". > ( > What is wrong with the following plan? > % >    o  shut down the system normallyF >  >    o  boot from CD > J >    o  MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW the target disk to erase the shadowing-specific + >       information in the SCB (necessary?)q > I >    o  upgrade this disk normally from the CD as for a non-shadowed diske > $ >    o  no need for SET VOLUME/LABEL > G >    o  boot from the new disk (will come up as a single-member shadow b >       set) > H >    o  use MOUNT/SHADOW to re-add the other member(s) to the shadow set > I > Two questions:  Is there anything wrong with this plan?  Does one need  E > to MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW the other members (which will be targets of a r7 > shadow copy) before adding them to the upgraded disk?. >   I Excellent idea, and it works too I know from experience. It also has the eQ advantage that the other unchanged shadow member can be used to boot from if the eI upgrade goes wrong for whatever reason (as happened with 7.2-1 to 7.2-2).n   ------------------------------   Date: 15 Jun 02 13:33:17 +0200) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) I Subject: Re: updated version of Chapter 8 of Volume Shadowing for OpenVMSf) Message-ID: <HmVdc5hrtrCr@elias.decus.ch>s  G In article <3D0AEF8C.8070801@home.nl>, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes:: > Phillip Helbig wrote: K >> Having successfully implemented volume shadowing on my hobbyist system, 5H >> I am looking forward to upgrading the OS.  The documentation on this I >> seems a little dated---these days, one normally boots from CD, mounts aD >> the disk to be upgraded etc.  The docs talk about "boot from and 9 >> perform the upgrade on the single, non-shadowed disk".h >> s) >> What is wrong with the following plan?m >> o& >>    o  shut down the system normally >> s >>    o  boot from CDp >>  K >>    o  MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW the target disk to erase the shadowing-specific n, >>       information in the SCB (necessary?) >> oJ >>    o  upgrade this disk normally from the CD as for a non-shadowed disk >> a% >>    o  no need for SET VOLUME/LABELu >> :H >>    o  boot from the new disk (will come up as a single-member shadow 
 >>       set)  >> zI >>    o  use MOUNT/SHADOW to re-add the other member(s) to the shadow sett >> oJ >> Two questions:  Is there anything wrong with this plan?  Does one need F >> to MOUNT/OVER=SHADOW the other members (which will be targets of a 8 >> shadow copy) before adding them to the upgraded disk? >> n > K > Excellent idea, and it works too I know from experience. It also has the iS > advantage that the other unchanged shadow member can be used to boot from if the yK > upgrade goes wrong for whatever reason (as happened with 7.2-1 to 7.2-2).O >o1 What went wrong? Something we should know about? - -- a
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:58:15 GMT , From: "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org>' Subject: Re: VMS advertising suggestiony> Message-ID: <b5FO8.75186$lM2.2479562@twister.southeast.rr.com>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D0AA057.3D5DC150@fsi.net...  > Bill Todd wrote: > >s< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:AOrY43M5jVs6@eisner.encompasserve.org.... > > >lL > > >         There is a full page ad in the back of yesterday's Wall Street > > JournalcH > > >         Marketplace section page B12.  It features a success story usingw= > > >         IBM's iSeries server (OS/400) and Omaha Steaks.l > > >mJ > > >         This is the type of ad that would work very well for VMS.  A big>  > > >         VMS success story. > >>F > > And once VMS is running on Itanic, you could show it *cooking* the steaks.c >eH > ...and by the time that happens (VMS on a viable, ready-for-prime-timeH > Itanic), a good number more of us will be asking about that steak, "Do > you want fries with that?"    / Don't you mean "ready-for-prime-rib" Itanic. :)r     > -- > David J. Dachtera  > dba DJE Systemsa > http://www.djesys.com/ >r* > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/v   --   Kenneth Farmer http://www.Tru64.org http://www.OpenVMS.org http://www.LinuxHPTC.com   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 03:46:23 -0500 (CDT)h6 From: "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]>" Subject: Re: VMS Monitoring a User< Message-ID: <200206150846.g5F8kNpN055166@cryptofortress.com>  1 On 14 Jun 2002, deltauh@yahoo.com (daniel) wrote:w   <snip>  B >I would suggest that if you are not sure about who to trust think@ >about some software packages that record user actions.  I saw aE >program in a demo that actually recorded all the keystrokes and then8B >you have all the proof you need.  I'm pretty sure the product wasF >System Detective. www.pointsecure.com.  The product seems to be quiteF >reputable.  They also have some other auditing tools that look great.  F I'd quite like to run some of the PointSecure tools, but I don't thinkG they're available to Hobbyists. I suspect they would prove to be highlytI useful as an effective LART. At present I only have the GUEST account foroB that, I just wish I could see the reaction on the other end of theG connection when I reply "Three guesses to get the password on the GUEST.' account? What sort of hacker are you?".v  F If anyone can suggest other frequently tried usernames, and preferablyK passwords, I could set up more captive accounts for LARTing script kiddies.tG I'd also welcome suggestions on how to LART 'em, REPLY doesn't give thed& satisfaction of seeing their response.     Doc. -- o6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net-   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:20:14 +0200a From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>, Subject: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ?& Message-ID: <3D0AEAAE.4090605@home.nl>  C Yesterday I asked Compaq for the price of a 2 GB GS80 memory stack.t$ The list price is >  20,000 (euro).  I I also looked at the price of 4 pcs of Infineon 133 MHz 512 MB ECC Dimms.o That would cost  800.  M Now I'm trying to figure out why the Compaq stack is more then 20 times more  Q expensive. Its is good memory (but Infineon is too), and it is purpose build and  M designed. But for that price I expect Curly and Carly to pack the modules in hO their lunchbreak, and send them to the customer with a personal thank-you note i from both of them.  K It is such a pity that these modules are so expensive, because it prevents VM customers from doing the best thing you can do with a Alpha: fill it up with  O memory. make sure your applications use it, and let your system scream. Wasn't h= that why 64 bit processors were designed in the first place ?o   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 09:10:33 -0400 1 From: "Island (hpaq.net)" <dbturner@islandco.com> 0 Subject: Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ?/ Message-ID: <ugmf9ibhrguaa9@news.supernews.com>    Even betters  L Most Compaq memory IS Infineon memory with the compaq hologram sticker added to itU  4 That is the big difference - a 19,200 Euro sticker !    J Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:3D0AEAAE.4090605@home.nl...E > Yesterday I asked Compaq for the price of a 2 GB GS80 memory stack.e& > The list price is >  20,000 (euro). > K > I also looked at the price of 4 pcs of Infineon 133 MHz 512 MB ECC Dimms.r > That would cost  800. >gI > Now I'm trying to figure out why the Compaq stack is more then 20 timest moreH > expensive. Its is good memory (but Infineon is too), and it is purpose	 build and K > designed. But for that price I expect Curly and Carly to pack the modules  inK > their lunchbreak, and send them to the customer with a personal thank-youw note > from both of them. >mL > It is such a pity that these modules are so expensive, because it preventsI > customers from doing the best thing you can do with a Alpha: fill it upe withI > memory. make sure your applications use it, and let your system scream.  Wasn't? > that why 64 bit processors were designed in the first place ?n >a   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 14:14:48 GMTh From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG 0 Subject: Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ?0 Message-ID: <00A0F7DD.F15EA94D@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <ugmf9ibhrguaa9@news.supernews.com>, "Island (hpaq.net)" <dbturner@islandco.com> writes:  >Even better >dM >Most Compaq memory IS Infineon memory with the compaq hologram sticker added  >to it >c5 >That is the big difference - a 19,200 Euro sticker !     . Wow!  Holograms are that expensive to produce?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" a   ------------------------------    Date: 15 Jun 2002 07:19:46 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)0 Subject: Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ?= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206150619.2762cb29@posting.google.com>o  L Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:<3D0AEAAE.4090605@home.nl>...E > Yesterday I asked Compaq for the price of a 2 GB GS80 memory stack.2& > The list price is >  20,000 (euro). > K > I also looked at the price of 4 pcs of Infineon 133 MHz 512 MB ECC Dimms.f > That would cost  800. > O > Now I'm trying to figure out why the Compaq stack is more then 20 times more  S > expensive. Its is good memory (but Infineon is too), and it is purpose build and nO > designed. But for that price I expect Curly and Carly to pack the modules in uQ > their lunchbreak, and send them to the customer with a personal thank-you note D > from both of them. > M > It is such a pity that these modules are so expensive, because it prevents oO > customers from doing the best thing you can do with a Alpha: fill it up with nQ > memory. make sure your applications use it, and let your system scream. Wasn't  ? > that why 64 bit processors were designed in the first place ?n  B DEC memory has always been more expensive because supposedly it is@ tested thoroughly for compatibility and bugs ... however we have? used third party memory (i.e. Dataram) for some time now in our : Vaxes and Alphas without any problems, so buy third party!   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:22:26 +0200e From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>0 Subject: Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ?$ Message-ID: <3D0B5BB2.70607@home.nl>   Bob Ceculski wrote: N > Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:<3D0AEAAE.4090605@home.nl>... > E >>Yesterday I asked Compaq for the price of a 2 GB GS80 memory stack.p& >>The list price is >  20,000 (euro). >>K >>I also looked at the price of 4 pcs of Infineon 133 MHz 512 MB ECC Dimms.d >>That would cost  800. >>O >>Now I'm trying to figure out why the Compaq stack is more then 20 times more kS >>expensive. Its is good memory (but Infineon is too), and it is purpose build and )O >>designed. But for that price I expect Curly and Carly to pack the modules in  Q >>their lunchbreak, and send them to the customer with a personal thank-you note P >>from both of them. >>M >>It is such a pity that these modules are so expensive, because it prevents  O >>customers from doing the best thing you can do with a Alpha: fill it up with uQ >>memory. make sure your applications use it, and let your system scream. Wasn't d? >>that why 64 bit processors were designed in the first place ?d >  > D > DEC memory has always been more expensive because supposedly it isB > tested thoroughly for compatibility and bugs ... however we haveA > used third party memory (i.e. Dataram) for some time now in ourp< > Vaxes and Alphas without any problems, so buy third party!  K Wish I could. But it seems GS80/160/320 memory is very different from ES40 xQ memory (we have 3rd party for that). I don't know a third party supplier for the i GS series .....    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 12:41:23 -0400 1 From: "Island (hpaq.net)" <dbturner@islandco.com> 0 Subject: Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ?/ Message-ID: <ugmrl8bmd2h953@news.supernews.com>o  , "I don't know a third party supplier for the  GS series ....."e   You do now !!!  $ I will get a quote for you on Monday   David Turner Island Computers US Corp.- 2700 Gregory Street  Savannah GA 31404  Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332  International: 001 912 447 6622u  Facsimile:      001 912 201 0096 dbturner@hpaq.net. www.hpaq.net  ; +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-H Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:3D0B5BB2.70607@home.nl... > Bob Ceculski wrote:o- > > Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote in messager" news:<3D0AEAAE.4090605@home.nl>... > >nG > >>Yesterday I asked Compaq for the price of a 2 GB GS80 memory stack. ( > >>The list price is >  20,000 (euro). > >>F > >>I also looked at the price of 4 pcs of Infineon 133 MHz 512 MB ECC Dimms. > >>That would cost  800. > >>K > >>Now I'm trying to figure out why the Compaq stack is more then 20 times  moreJ > >>expensive. Its is good memory (but Infineon is too), and it is purpose	 build and>E > >>designed. But for that price I expect Curly and Carly to pack thee
 modules inC > >>their lunchbreak, and send them to the customer with a personald thank-you note > >>from both of them. > >>E > >>It is such a pity that these modules are so expensive, because itS preventsK > >>customers from doing the best thing you can do with a Alpha: fill it upt withK > >>memory. make sure your applications use it, and let your system scream.  Wasn'tA > >>that why 64 bit processors were designed in the first place ?p > >, > > F > > DEC memory has always been more expensive because supposedly it isD > > tested thoroughly for compatibility and bugs ... however we haveC > > used third party memory (i.e. Dataram) for some time now in ourp> > > Vaxes and Alphas without any problems, so buy third party! >rL > Wish I could. But it seems GS80/160/320 memory is very different from ES40J > memory (we have 3rd party for that). I don't know a third party supplier for theo > GS series .....w >h >t >e   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.330 ************************