1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 20 Jun 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 340       Contents:< Re: Advanced Server V7.3 - "limit on concurrent connections" Re: Alphaserver 300 problem 9 Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions! 9 Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions! 9 Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions! 9 Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions! 9 Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions! 9 RE: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions! 9 Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions! 9 Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions! 9 Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!  Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: COE, ODS-5 and Spiralog. RE: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: Could linux become VMS? > Re: DCL Puzzle: Can you produce this DIRECTORY command output?" DTSS$NTP_PROVIDER update available. Re: HP RoadShow in France these days: a report. Re: HP RoadShow in France these days: a report. Re: HP RoadShow in France these days: a report. Re: HP RoadShow in France these days: a report@ Re: Location of DLM papers ?, was: Re: Linus' comments about VMS@ Re: Location of DLM papers ?, was: Re: Linus' comments about VMS9 Re: Mac keboard mapping - was Re: Could linux become VMS? & Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading& Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading Re: misc Qns, Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ..., Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...< Re: NSA: Security in current mainstream operating systems vs< Re: NSA: Security in current mainstream operating systems vsG Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)  Re: OVMS 7.3 BACKUP problem / Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III " Re: rooted devices and /TRANS=CONCH SEVMS and friends. was: NSA: Security in current mainstream operating...! Re: Sun/Slowaris future in doubt! ! Re: Sun/Slowaris future in doubt! 7 The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing  Re: timeout restriction  Re: timeout restriction  Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix history Re: unix historyP Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A Proposal for AllP Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A Proposal for AllP Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A Proposal for All What is/was LESACP?  Re: What is/was LESACP?  Re: What is/was LESACP?  Re: What is/was LESACP?  Re: What is/was LESACP? , RE: What kind of morons work at the FDA now?, Re: What kind of morons work at the FDA now?' Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ? < Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases< Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases< Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases< Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases< Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases< Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases< Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases< Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases< Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases XFC Status?? Re: XFC Status?? Re: XFC Status??" Re: [OT] Why Software is So Bad..." Re: [OT] Why Software is So Bad..." Re: [OT] Why Software is So Bad..." Re: [OT] Why Software is So Bad..." Re: [OT] Why Software is So Bad...  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:33:50 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> E Subject: Re: Advanced Server V7.3 - "limit on concurrent connections" 8 Message-ID: <72p3huge3aggf06insfb5sfbve3642aikr@4ax.com>  3 On Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:03:27 -0400, "Brad McCusker" " <brad.mccusker@charter.net> wrote:   > = >"Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote in message , >news:aelf8p$qjd$1@fizban.pprd.abbott.com...H >> What does the configuration manager tell you about maximum concurrent >> signons?  >> > H >Nope, that's not it.  Max con-current signons is the number of externalG >authentication threads we create.  Its for that mythical company where L >everyone comes it at 8:00 AM and hits the <CR> after typing their User/PassM >at the exact same time.  In other words, its doubtful anyone needs more than I >the 10 threads its set to.  Actually, its doubtful that more than two of , >those threads are ever in simultaneous use.  C Brad, this was one of the major issues which caused us ot phase out F Pathworks at my previous university employer. And t wasn't  just 8:am.@ On the hour, every hour we saw hundreds of close to simultaneous logons as classes changed.  F If memory serves, a linear search of an uncached lmshare was performed@ several times during the logon process and we had a few thousandC shares.  At one point it took Patrhworks 5 server around 30 seconds D real-time to perform a netlogon and connect users shares. So it took( most of the hour just to log folks on...  B A genuine NT server with the same number of shares handled it just fine.    All this from memory anyway.  * >Bottom line - not related to this problem >  >Brad McCusker >Hewlett-Packard Company$ >OpenVMS Advanced Server Engineering  >Littleton MA and Nashua NH, USA > J >Comments are my own and do not reflect the opinion of my employer, or any- >other organization I may be affilaited with.  >  >  >> $admin/config >> >> -- 
 >> Dave... >>6 >> More than one cigar at a time is excessive smoking. >> -----Mark Twain >>; >> "Ray Swadling" <ray@rgscomputing.co.uk> wrote in message 5 >> news:457sguse41qb53f5v6asqlbplu39ddms25@4ax.com...  >> > Hi, >> >K >> > I have Advanced Server V7.3 running on a DS20. I have currently got an I >> > open temp license PAK pending the arrival of some more PAKs to allow  >> > increased number of users.  >> >G >> > I have several users/shares set up, but I am experiencing an error F >> > when more than 3 users on different clients try to connect to theF >> > server to access a share. I don't know if the problem is with the2 >> > share or the user account, but the error is:- >> > >> > "A connectionG >> > to the server could not be made because the limit on the number of ? >> > concurrent connections for this account has been reached."  >> >K >> > I have set the share to unlimited connections and have trawled through G >> > the documentation and help to try to find any other settings which 3 >> > would control/limit the number of connections. D >> > I thought it was license related  (hence the temp PAK) but that >> > doesn't seem to help..... >> >H >> > I seem to vaguely recall some problem when using a mix of temp/realJ >> > license PAKs. I intend to disable all the valid PAKs tomorrow and see= >> > if having just the temp unlimited one cures the problem.  >> >D >> > Users with different client/usernames get the error so it looks$ >> > share-related not user account. >> >) >> > Can anyone shed any light on this???  >> ># >> > VMS 7.2-1/Advanced Server V7.3  >> >	 >> > Ray.  >> > >> >> >    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 19:25:38 +0200 & From: Michael Joosten <joost@c-lab.de>$ Subject: Re: Alphaserver 300 problem$ Message-ID: <3D121012.7DE1@c-lab.de>   guppy99@flash.net wrote: > C > Sounds like you have a problem with the memory.  Try reseating or  > rearranging the SIMMS. >  > William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > J > > Last week I picked up an Alphaserver 300. 192mb/2x1gb/cd/mach64 video.L > > When I got it set up, it was in ARC mode. I followed the instructions inJ > > the manual I downloaded from hpaq's website and used the menu to resetA > > it for VMS mode. After power cycling, all it does it sit with  > > 
 > > eb ...  F If I run a PC164 board with serial console, I get the following 'count% down' before the SRM prompt is shown:    *** keyboard not plugged in...- ff.fe.fd.fc.fb.fa.f9.f8.f7.f6.f5.f3.f2.f1.f0. * ef.b0.b1.b2.b3.ee.ed.ec.f4.eb.ea.e9.e8.e7.  H So, 'eb' is printed  in a pretty late stage, just after the grafics card" has been detected and initialized.  3 Grafics card not supported, mouse or keyboard dead?     H > > in the upper left hand corner of the screen. From what little I haveK > > been able to find so far, this is a "Failed to detect CPU speed" error.   H If it is really speed, thsi could be as easy as to exchange the battery.D I've seen a similar error message on SGI Indigos, when their LithiumH real time clock batteries were empty. The boot ROMs seems to use a delayD loop in the startup code and compare the start and stop times of the7 real time clock. So, no clock ticks, no CPU speed info.   H Is there a list of these codes? I haven't seem then in the PC164 docs...  L > > If this is the case, what are my options for further trouble shooting orL > > repair? I hope to reseat everything possible tomorrow evening after some  E Use a serial terminal connected to port 1, remove mouse/keyboard, and  see what else happens?   --  * Michael Joosten, SBS C-LAB, joost@c-lab.de* Fuerstenallee 11, 33094 Paderborn, Germany, Phone: +49 5251 606127, Fax: +49 5251 6060658 C-LAB is a cooperation of University Paderborn & SIEMENS   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 06:11:17 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)B Subject: Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206200511.5046dd62@posting.google.com>   ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3D114560.FE61307C@fsi.net>... > A > HP has *GOT* to stand up, step up to the plate and state, in no F > uncertain terms, that the Alphacide was mistake and that Alphas willH > continue to be developed and will continue to be available until IntelI > FINALLY manages to put forth a viable, ready-for-prime-time 64-bit CPU.  > D > Anything short of that is just so much more zero-credibility sales > fluff. > H > Sorry to have to state it so bluntly, but that is the bottom line from > the front-line perspective.   F What is wrong with you people?  Alphas are continuing to be developed!C What in the heck is EV7 - EV79?  And I talked to Rich yesterday and F he assured me their will be an entry level replacement for VMS for theE DS10's.  EV68 shrinks and EV7 will certainly tide everyone over until F VMS is ready for production (2005?).  There is no reason right now whyC you cannot buy Alpha, then port to Itanium.  I have stated over and G over and over and over and over that RMS is RMS, and app languages such G as DIBOL just require a recompile.  Decnet is Decnet, and the port will E be easy, but heck, just EV7 will be competitive for at least the next ! 5 years ... don't you get it yet?    ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 06:16:11 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)B Subject: Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206200516.15240178@posting.google.com>   g "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<aXbQ8.253734$352.21290@sccrnsc02>...  >  > > L > > They're hip, guy. They're onto it. They know Alpha hits the wall at someL > > point where the "Q" have "driven a stake in the ground". That makes it aH > > dead-end proposition in their eyes, and no amount of "commitment" is > > going counter act that.  > > C > > HP has *GOT* to stand up, step up to the plate and state, in no H > > uncertain terms, that the Alphacide was mistake and that Alphas willJ > > continue to be developed and will continue to be available until IntelK > > FINALLY manages to put forth a viable, ready-for-prime-time 64-bit CPU.  > > F > > Anything short of that is just so much more zero-credibility sales
 > > fluff. > H > Having lost a year of Alpha development, not to mention the developersN > themselves, what is the liklihood that HPQ could pull this off if they chose > to do so?   C Are you losing faith in Itanium already Terry?  Your article on the A Inquirer this morning shows Itanium II blowing away Sparky III at C Reuters, and the Alpha team design changes don't even hit till 2004 C after Madison ... things are starting to look good for Itanium now, F and for VMS form what I heard form Rich, and you keep crying for AlphaD like Itanium will fail.  So you doubt your own Inquirer article now?   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 06:16:16 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)B Subject: Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206200516.4aa5264a@posting.google.com>   g "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<aXbQ8.253734$352.21290@sccrnsc02>...  >  > > L > > They're hip, guy. They're onto it. They know Alpha hits the wall at someL > > point where the "Q" have "driven a stake in the ground". That makes it aH > > dead-end proposition in their eyes, and no amount of "commitment" is > > going counter act that.  > > C > > HP has *GOT* to stand up, step up to the plate and state, in no H > > uncertain terms, that the Alphacide was mistake and that Alphas willJ > > continue to be developed and will continue to be available until IntelK > > FINALLY manages to put forth a viable, ready-for-prime-time 64-bit CPU.  > > F > > Anything short of that is just so much more zero-credibility sales
 > > fluff. > H > Having lost a year of Alpha development, not to mention the developersN > themselves, what is the liklihood that HPQ could pull this off if they chose > to do so?   C Are you losing faith in Itanium already Terry?  Your article on the A Inquirer this morning shows Itanium II blowing away Sparky III at C Reuters, and the Alpha team design changes don't even hit till 2004 C after Madison ... things are starting to look good for Itanium now, F and for VMS from what I heard form Rich, and you keep crying for AlphaD like Itanium will fail.  So you doubt your own Inquirer article now?   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 06:16:15 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)B Subject: Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206200516.4254b37d@posting.google.com>   g "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<aXbQ8.253734$352.21290@sccrnsc02>...  >  > > L > > They're hip, guy. They're onto it. They know Alpha hits the wall at someL > > point where the "Q" have "driven a stake in the ground". That makes it aH > > dead-end proposition in their eyes, and no amount of "commitment" is > > going counter act that.  > > C > > HP has *GOT* to stand up, step up to the plate and state, in no H > > uncertain terms, that the Alphacide was mistake and that Alphas willJ > > continue to be developed and will continue to be available until IntelK > > FINALLY manages to put forth a viable, ready-for-prime-time 64-bit CPU.  > > F > > Anything short of that is just so much more zero-credibility sales
 > > fluff. > H > Having lost a year of Alpha development, not to mention the developersN > themselves, what is the liklihood that HPQ could pull this off if they chose > to do so?   C Are you losing faith in Itanium already Terry?  Your article on the A Inquirer this morning shows Itanium II blowing away Sparky III at C Reuters, and the Alpha team design changes don't even hit till 2004 C after Madison ... things are starting to look good for Itanium now, F and for VMS from what I heard from Rich, and you keep crying for AlphaD like Itanium will fail.  So you doubt your own Inquirer article now?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:16:03 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> B Subject: Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!2 Message-ID: <DslQ8.11$pn2.324770@news.cpqcorp.net>  A David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3D114560.FE61307C@fsi.net>...  >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  >>D >> David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3D0E5626.EBF15498@fsi.net>... >> >> >K >> >Gee - now if we could get Rich in the loop on our sales cycle, maybe HE K >> >could explain the so-called "dead end" Alpha to our prospects who throw  >> >that back in our face... >> > >>G >> Please contact Sue Skonetski.  If you need help closing the deal and  believelG >> that Mark, or even Rich is what you need to do it...  all things are. >> possible. >e >*HEARTFELT SIGH*  > C >As much as I'd like to believe that, I suspect it might be a touchmG >difficult to get folks of their stature to co-ordinate their schedulese/ >around the trampings of a travelling salesman.  >.  L Of course you aren't going to get them to become co-salesmen for you.  All IK am pointing out is that if you need help to close a deal involving VMS, andeH perceptions of VMS - Sue, the ambassadors, and even HP management can be used as a resource.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:18:17 -0700a# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>oB Subject: RE: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEJBFDAA.tom@kednos.com>s   Fred,t  E In theory that may be the way it works, but we recently closed a dealcH where the customer bought 12 ES45s and I couldn't get a return call fromF either ambassador or sales rep.  Maybe your commissions are too low:-)   >-----Original Message-----n; >From: Fred Kleinsorge [mailto:kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com]B& >Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 7:16 AM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComC >Subject: Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!i >L >s >oB >David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3D114560.FE61307C@fsi.net>... >>Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >>>.E >>> David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3D0E5626.EBF15498@fsi.net>...S >>>c >>> >nL >>> >Gee - now if we could get Rich in the loop on our sales cycle, maybe HEL >>> >could explain the so-called "dead end" Alpha to our prospects who throw >>> >that back in our face...k >>> >  >>>eH >>> Please contact Sue Skonetski.  If you need help closing the deal and >believeH >>> that Mark, or even Rich is what you need to do it...  all things are
 >>> possible.s >> >>*HEARTFELT SIGH* >>D >>As much as I'd like to believe that, I suspect it might be a touchH >>difficult to get folks of their stature to co-ordinate their schedules0 >>around the trampings of a travelling salesman. >> >eA >Of course you aren't going to get them to become co-salesmen forn >you.  All IL >am pointing out is that if you need help to close a deal involving VMS, andI >perceptions of VMS - Sue, the ambassadors, and even HP management can ber >used as a resource. >A >T >  >U >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.s; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).l@ >Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/2002 >  ---P& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 6/5/2002D   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 09:43:30 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)hB Subject: Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!3 Message-ID: <yfcKJfMS4tGT@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <d7791aa1.0206200511.5046dd62@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:b > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3D114560.FE61307C@fsi.net>... >> 'I >> Sorry to have to state it so bluntly, but that is the bottom line froml >> the front-line perspective. > H > What is wrong with you people?  Alphas are continuing to be developed!  B    I have to agree with David on the practical effect.  I say that@    because I who live and breathe VMS and Alpha have no plans toB    buy another Alpha after the one which will replace a DEC 10000.  A    But I am already bugging customers about upgrading there VAXen     directly to IPF.2   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:16:39 GMTv# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>eB Subject: Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!J Message-ID: <HdnQ8.418493$t8_.173657@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:aXbQ8.253734$352.21290@sccrnsc02... >dG > Which is why, for the last decade, I have been telling DEC and CPQ to J > PROACTIVELY engage the trade press organs. Perhaps I would have had moreC > luck if I wore an Armani Suit (Probability Factor: slim to none).e >   G Tell me what size you wear...maybe I can get my buddy who works for the0J local Armani agency to 'sponsor' you. Of course, it'll probably look a bitL like a racing suit after all the sponsorship patches are sewn on. Who knows,+ maybe we can get GQ to sponsor you too. :-)t   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:20:12 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>oB Subject: Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!J Message-ID: <0hnQ8.418520$t8_.239920@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEJBFDAA.tom@kednos.com...o > Fred,e > G > In theory that may be the way it works, but we recently closed a deal J > where the customer bought 12 ES45s and I couldn't get a return call fromH > either ambassador or sales rep.  Maybe your commissions are too low:-)  > Nope. They get paid based on how many Alpha's they DON'T sell.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:40:15 +0200-' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>c# Subject: Case sensitive identifierse( Message-ID: <3D1194EF.1802F085@spam.not>   Frank Sapienza wrote:  > @ > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message' > news:aeps6e$5pt$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...f3 > > I don;t know about you, but I don't use a mono-  > > case natural languagen > E > Really?  Does your dictionary show different meanings for the words / > "Dictionary", "DICTIONARY", and "dictionary"?g > F > All natural languages are mono-case.  Just because we may format ourK > sentences using upper- and lower-case letters for appearance doesn't make  > the language case-sensitive.  $ I'm not sure whether you're correct.    5 There are natural languages that are case sensitive. e  5 IOW there is a difference between "Kraft" (noun) and  : "kraft" (preposition). While I agree that it is a pain to < access database records with mixed case I always thought it > should be the responsibility of the users to stick to certain > conventions. Case isn't the only way to screw up identifiers.   < Even Oracle offers the possibility to create case sensitive ? table names and column names. Therefore I'm not sure enforcing  @ case insensitivity even in an English only enviroment is a good ? ide. Aren't there case like McIntosh or O'Riley that need some   distinction in case?    4 There are computer languages that are case sensitiv.  < It could be discussed whether this has been a wise decision > in the first place (and the arguments would be rather similar ; to the above), but we have to live with them. As computers n> are sometimes used for developing programs it might be a good ' idea to support a broad range of P.L.s.o   --  ? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL,  @ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:13:49 GMT2* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifiers0B Message-ID: <NimQ8.305879$%y.24906038@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  4 "Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message" news:3D1194EF.1802F085@spam.not...   ...   6 > There are natural languages that are case sensitive. > 6 > IOW there is a difference between "Kraft" (noun) and; > "kraft" (preposition). While I agree that it is a pain tod= > access database records with mixed case I always thought ite? > should be the responsibility of the users to stick to certainr > conventions.  B Why someone would think that, when in the overwhelming majority ofJ situations case is not significant to a look-up, is not clear to me (or toG the rest of the world that considers case-sensitivity in naming to be af crock 99.99% of the time).   ...e  = > Even Oracle offers the possibility to create case sensitiveg > table names and column names.a  J Such names are seldom directly manipulated by naive (or even not-so-naive)G end-users.  It's less obnoxious to be case-sensitive in such situationstJ (which include your progamming-language example as well), though even then5 it's not clear that case-sensitivity is *preferable*.e  !  Therefore I'm not sure enforcing A > case insensitivity even in an English only enviroment is a goodm@ > ide. Aren't there case like McIntosh or O'Riley that need some > distinction in case?  F As has been pointed out already, mixed-case *support* does not requireD case-*sensitivity*.  The examples you provide do not require look-upJ case-sensitivity to distinguish them any more than, e.g., 'put' (to place)K and 'put' (a stock-trading term) do:  a user can make the distinction if itt is in fact relevant.   >o >v6 > There are computer languages that are case sensitiv. > = > It could be discussed whether this has been a wise decision ? > in the first place (and the arguments would be rather similar9/ > to the above), but we have to live with them.:  G No, we do not:  we can instead choose to use systems that act sensibly. H Unfortunately, since crocks are not that rare in the world, sometimes we: must choose to use systems which merely have the fewest or least-objectionable ones.r   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:57:28 -0400D, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com>' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifiersn, Message-ID: <aesqmh011ju@enews3.newsguy.com>  4 "Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message" news:3D1194EF.1802F085@spam.not...6 > IOW there is a difference between "Kraft" (noun) and > "kraft" (preposition). >l  E Well, without knowing which natural-language you're referring to, andUK therefore with no basis to argue against your statement, I'll accept it and  stand corrected.  H However, are you sure you're not referring to context-sensitivity rather than case-sensitivity?  F In English, there are a lot of words which take on a different meaningK depending on how they're used in a sentence.  For example, "She piloted hersL craft through the water" .vs. "Their craft was making bread from wheat" .vs.) "He could craft a sentence for any word."o  I The first usage of "craft" refers to a ship or vessel (noun).  The secondtK refers to a skill or occupation (also noun).  The third implies a skill but  is used as a verb.  G In either of the three examples, I could have written "crAft", "CRAFT",rL "Craft", or any other mix of upper- and lower- case letters.  While it wouldI have looked out of place the meaning would not change.  Anyone looking attE the mixed-case usage might think it was simply a typographical error.-  F Brass, in the natural-language you refer to, what is the difference inG pronunciation between "Kraft", and "kraft"?  If there is none, then how6G would the speaker express to any listener which form of the word he/shec8 intended to use?  (Absent context-sensitivity, that is.)   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jun 2002 16:19:39 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) ' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifiers , Message-ID: <aesvar$1lfi$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <aesqmh011ju@enews3.newsguy.com>,/  "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:t |> pI |> In English, there are a lot of words which take on a different meaninghN |> depending on how they're used in a sentence.  For example, "She piloted herO |> craft through the water" .vs. "Their craft was making bread from wheat" .vs.a, |> "He could craft a sentence for any word." |> sL |> The first usage of "craft" refers to a ship or vessel (noun).  The secondN |> refers to a skill or occupation (also noun).  The third implies a skill but |> is used as a verb.o |> tJ |> In either of the three examples, I could have written "crAft", "CRAFT",O |> "Craft", or any other mix of upper- and lower- case letters.  While it wouldn9 |> have looked out of place the meaning would not change.t  E And it would have been wrong.  Unless all the English teachers in thee4 world are just doing what they do to annoy students.  mK |>                                                        Anyone looking atlH |> the mixed-case usage might think it was simply a typographical error.  F So what?  If I see the sentence "He bought too cats at the pet store."H I acan divine what it really means, but I wouldn't accept that if I were$ grading papers for an English class.   |> 4I |> Brass, in the natural-language you refer to, what is the difference in J |> pronunciation between "Kraft", and "kraft"?  If there is none, then howJ |> would the speaker express to any listener which form of the word he/she; |> intended to use?  (Absent context-sensitivity, that is.)e  E Of course in the spoken it is context-sensitivity.  Which is the sameeH way I can tell the meaining in my sentence above. But in writting, usingE wrong capitalization (in English as well as German and I am sure mostlE other languages) is just as wrong as using the wrong word.  I am sureaG that my German is still pretty poor compared to a native speaker.  TheyfG understand me and are polite enough not to laugh, but it doesn't changetF the fact that if I violate the grammar and conventions I am just plain wrong.  C Trying to put this back on topic, nothing in Unix forces the use ofeC mixed-case for things like filenames.  They can all be in one case.eB So, if it is un-natural and 99.9% of the world knows this then wny4 don't users, particularly new users, stop doing it??   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   m   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:16:38 +0100-% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>1% Subject: Re: COE, ODS-5 and Spiralog.B8 Message-ID: <c3l3huovsg4er493o7qh4ug5j6guia3thm@4ax.com>  F On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 04:22:32 GMT, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:   > = >"David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in messagen" >news:3D0BDB07.7C9D7098@fsi.net... >. >... > C >> I thought those *WERE* the "bugs" "they" couldn't work out ... ?a >aK >The problem is your use of the word "couldn't" rather than "didn't".  It'seG >quite a bit like the 'failure' of VMS and Alpha:  it's not that Compaqe( >*couldn't* make them more successful...  D There are members of the Spiralog team reading c.o.v. One thing I am? sure of is they are highly competent but probably don't want toaB re-open debates consigned to history. If they wish to say anything3 themselves they probably would have done so by now.a   But you never know...    >- bill  >  >    -- Alan   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 09:10:30 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler),$ Subject: RE: Could linux become VMS?3 Message-ID: <XDES5HkpJedd@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  e In article <PHECLHHFDGKPFDHKILFNKEPMCDAA.dallen@nist.gov>, "Daniel P Allen" <dallen@nist.gov> writes: M > I believe NTFS is case-sensitive.  The Windows interface masks that. If youdJ > write network code ala Samba to a "windows" file server you will see the > case sensitive behavior. >   C    I've never had a problem with anything I've written for Windows.eC    Although I do avoid writing for windows, I think maybe this is aq@    Samba problem.  After all, doens't Samba implement a protocol=    designed by Microsoft?  Can't expect them to get it right.@   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:00:33 -0400 , From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com>$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <aesqsc011t2@enews3.newsguy.com>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:ay2Q8.26$iV1.502945@news.cpqcorp.net...I > Yes.  We all drive BMW Z3's, eat rare Prime Rib washed down with Anchor 6 > Steam, and have graduated from Tolkien to Pratchett. >r > ;-)  >    Fred, my BMW is in for repairs..   Can I have to keys to yours?   :-)t   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jun 2002 15:38:00 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)i$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?, Message-ID: <aessso$1kl0$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <aeqp10017tl@enews2.newsguy.com>,/  "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:iA |> "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message ( |> news:aeps6e$5pt$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...4 |> > I don;t know about you, but I don't use a mono- |> > case natural language |>  F |> Really?  Does your dictionary show different meanings for the words0 |> "Dictionary", "DICTIONARY", and "dictionary"? |> -G |> All natural languages are mono-case.  Just because we may format ourrL |> sentences using upper- and lower-case letters for appearance doesn't make |> the language case-sensitive.-  A Surely grammar and convention are as much a part of a language ase a dictionary??    8 otherwise, why do they not teach in school to just write like e. e. cummings??a   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   @   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:07:46 GMTe5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>g$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?2 Message-ID: <m5nQ8.15$eu2.643194@news.cpqcorp.net>  # Frank Sapienza wrote in message ...eA >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messageo- >news:ay2Q8.26$iV1.502945@news.cpqcorp.net...aJ >> Yes.  We all drive BMW Z3's, eat rare Prime Rib washed down with Anchor7 >> Steam, and have graduated from Tolkien to Pratchett.o >> >> ;-) >> >d  >Fred, my BMW is in for repairs. >  >Can I have to keys to yours?w >  >:-) >t  L Nope.  The sun (the one in the sky) is shining at last in NH, and the top isI down.  But feel free to leave a deposit for me at the Country Tavern, andoJ next time I'm having the Prime Rib (of course with an Anchor Steam draft), I'll give it some thought ;-).   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 09:20:18 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)G Subject: Re: DCL Puzzle: Can you produce this DIRECTORY command output? = Message-ID: <343f30ae.0206200820.57108db3@posting.google.com>a  s SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) wrote in message news:<343f30ae.0206141439.2b094aa4@posting.google.com>...w > Hello DCL users! > G > Can you construct an argument for the DIRECTORY command that producesg/ > the following output?:  (Sorry, no prizes :-(G >  >  u > Directory SPOOK: >  o > *.*; >  s > Total of 1 file. >  > C > You can do whatever DCL you want to prepare the argument, but the F > above output must be produced by a single DCL DIRECTORY command withE > the ODS-2 file system. Character set manipulations and the like arei > not allowed. > 9 > (Puzzle developed on VMS v6.1 and also works on v6.2.) a    F Well, I've been noticing that Google appears to be missing some posts.E So far, I've only seen responses to this from two posters and neitheraE had the full correct answer. I hope I'm not missing any others. (Yes,  I use Google to use Usenet.)  < You can send me your entry via e-mail if you like and I will
 summarize.  D Send entries to afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com. Change " atski " to "@" and " dotski " to ".".e   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmanl afeldman gfigroup com    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:26:51 +0200c* From: "Sven Tieste" <sven.tieste@sw-hb.de>+ Subject: DTSS$NTP_PROVIDER update availabled2 Message-ID: <aesnrq$imq$1@f40-3.zfn.uni-bremen.de>   Hello,A we are using DTSS$NTP_PROVIDER to synronise the time of our Alpha  with a central server.E The central server  has been updated to NTP 4. The request we send is85 unfortunately Version 1. NTP 4 don't understand NTP1.y4 Question is if a newer version of  DTSS$NTP_PROVIDER exist and how to get it.B Maybe we have to change our time synchronisation. Some suggestionsL of safe and easy ways to use the synchronisation server which provides NTP4?0 So, don't let our timeless Alpha being timeless. Sven   p.s.J kind regards to Peter and Christoph from de.comp.os.vms for there answers!   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:56:59 +0100f( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>7 Subject: Re: HP RoadShow in France these days: a reportn) Message-ID: <3D11DF2B.50E247F6@127.0.0.1>r   Didier Morandi wrote:- > * > We had an HP RoadShow in Toulouse today. > ) > The cake on the cherry was this phrase:c > # > VMS sales in France : +3% in 2001h   How is this 3% worked out?   New systems?  $ Software upgrades? (not on contract)  G This figure could be significantly bigger with some decent advertising.sA I'd like to have those 3% extras surveyed to find out, "why VMS?"n  D I _know_ I live near the best town in the north west of England, but> unless your endowed with mind reading capability or per chanceG accidentally stop off to discover it for your self, just how will _you_o
 know that?  C Putting up notices all over this town and distributing leaflets and-? running events for the residents makes no impression on a wider-D audience. Even the town mayor stood on the town hall steps is a mere token gesture. g  < It really impressed everybody in the neighbouring city, NOT!   -- l? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencess nclews at csc dot como   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:05:57 GMTe. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)7 Subject: Re: HP RoadShow in France these days: a reportn5 Message-ID: <9jlQ8.304962$305.4410451@news.chello.at>a  T In article <3D11DF2B.50E247F6@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: >Didier Morandi wrote:+ >> We had an HP RoadShow in Toulouse today.- >> t* >> The cake on the cherry was this phrase: >>  $ >> VMS sales in France : +3% in 2001 >  >How is this 3% worked out?a   That's simple math9 2000 they sold 30 VMS workstations, 2001 they sold 31 ;-)a   SCNR   -- t Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialisth E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 10:22:12 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) 7 Subject: Re: HP RoadShow in France these days: a reports= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206200922.3b4abd80@posting.google.com>o  [ Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message news:<3D10E8DE.3952A30@Free.fr>... # > VMS sales in France : +3% in 2001e  B There appears to be good news not only in France, and not only for 2001.t  C IDC Quarterly Server Tracker data for Western Europe shows that VMSmE was the ONLY operating system platform to grow in 1Q2002, with growthe of 8.7%.  E For the same period, WinNT/2K decreased by 18.5%, Unix fell by 21.9%,y> OS/390 and OS/400 both dropped by 20% or more, and the 'Other' category dropped by almost 40%.u: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 10:10:58 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)c7 Subject: Re: HP RoadShow in France these days: a report5= Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206200910.2a8f4114@posting.google.com>"  [ Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message news:<3D10E8DE.3952A30@Free.fr>... # > VMS sales in France : +3% in 2001t  B There appears to be good news not only in France, and not only for 2001.p  C IDC Quarterly Server Tracker data for Western Europe shows that VMSoE was the ONLY operating system platform to grow in 1Q2002, with growthy of 8.7%.  E For the same period, WinNT/2K decreased by 18.5%, Unix fell by 21.9%, > OS/390 and OS/400 both dropped by 20% or more, and the 'Other' category dropped by almost 40%.a: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 07:46:54 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)I Subject: Re: Location of DLM papers ?, was: Re: Linus' comments about VMSu3 Message-ID: <VpnT5mz0SpPZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  o In article <fgOP8.313926$Kp.24048631@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:l > N > "Jim Johnson" <Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com> wrote in message, > news:3d0f3424.25455382@news.demon.co.uk...B >> At least one of them is J.N. Gray, "Notes on Database OperatingE >> Systems," in Operating Systems: An Advanced Course, R. Bayer et alq, >> eds., pp.393-481, Springer- Verlag, 1978. > L > Not only have I never been able to find that paper on line, but I've neverN > been able to locate it in the Springer-Verlag compendia (I forget the title,L > but they're silver-gray bound and approach The Great Gray Wall in size) atG > the local establishment of higher learning.  So any pointers would beh > appreciated by me as well. >  > - bill >   E Well, it took a bit of looking, but I have found a scanned in copy oft those pages at::  9 http://courseweb.sp.cs.cmu.edu/~cs612/papers/GrayLect.pdf   # which is referenced from this page:o  - http://courseweb.sp.cs.cmu.edu/~cs612/papers/    Simon.  , PS: Be aware that the PDF is 4MB+ in size...   -- -B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       + Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:34:15 GMTi* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>I Subject: Re: Location of DLM papers ?, was: Re: Linus' comments about VMS9A Message-ID: <WBmQ8.43300$8i1.2443428@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>t  G "Simon Clubley" <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote ina5 message news:VpnT5mz0SpPZ@eisner.encompasserve.org...h   ...i  G > Well, it took a bit of looking, but I have found a scanned in copy of  > those pages at:r >o; > http://courseweb.sp.cs.cmu.edu/~cs612/papers/GrayLect.pdfe  
 Thank you!   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:09:32 -0400h2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>B Subject: Re: Mac keboard mapping - was Re: Could linux become VMS?. Message-ID: <3D11C5FC.8EBCC4F9@mindspring.com>   Paul Sture wrote:h  / > > When you've done the deed, a small national 2 > > flag will appear in the right-hand part of the1 > > menu bar. That's a pull-down menu and it willu1 > > quickly let you select keyboard mappings. TheI/ > > "US" mapping should certainly have the pipeo' > > character in the usual US position.  > >rO > Thanks. Clicking on the flag symbol gave me a choice of German, Swiss German,eP > or customize. Customize allows selection from a host of layouts, amongst which( > is US. Now set to Swiss German and US. >r) > Here are the elusive []{}|# characters.o >eO > Further to that, alt-apple-space toggles the setting, so no mousing required.s   I'm glad you're all set!   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:29:49 +0100-1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>1/ Subject: Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Readingu5 Message-ID: <3D11927D.289ACEC@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>e   A couple of points:1   <$ SET MODE/BOARDMEMBER=ON>eG Questions were limited as those organising the meeting (i.e. the CUO-UKmD Board) felt that there was a risk that people would go away thinkingF that some delegates (those with louder voices or on the front row) hadF been able to ask all of their questions and yet others had been unableH to get a word in edgeways.  i.e. the limit of two questions per delegateG per half day was done so that everybody could get a fair chance if theys
 wanted it.  G I do know that several delegates did get more than their two questions,iF but only because it was felt that the issue being raised was importantF to all (you included Alan :-))  We wanted EVERYBODY to think carefullyE before blasting off questions, it was not victimisation Alan.  If youkA would like to discuss it off line then you're welcome to mail me.   0 <$ SET MODE/BOARDMEMBER=OFF/PERSONAL_OPINION=ON>  G I think Nic mentioned elsewhere in this thread that he wasn't sure what D the details were on promotion of products.  My understanding is thatG where Compaq split up marketing on a country by country basis, HP do itaH by product range on a worldwide basis.  Of course, the company is at theE start of a massive reorganisation as one would expect from two marketnF leaders joining together.  What happens in the future may be different to what happens now.   StarOffice.eE I agree with JF that it may be a useful marketing exercise for Sun to G support StarOffice on VMS and then say (informally) "We love VMS, otherwH people don't".  Last I heard, there were mutterings about perhaps tryingF to get StarOffice ported to VMS as (another) of VMS Engineering's lateG night projects but I suspect that some of those guys actually needed tog *sleep* as well as work.    H Overall, the one point which sticks in my mind is that Classic HP peopleE were surprised at the (large) volume of the VMS market whilst ClassicyE Compaq people were surprised at the (small) volume of the MPE market.e  H Nothing is certain in this life, least of all when one considers that weF never thought that HP would have responsibility for VMS this time lastE year.  However, from my view things could be looking better than they # have for some time in OpenVMS land.n   Steve.     Alan Greig wrote:  > G > On Thu, 30 May 2002 17:49:17 +0100, Elliott Roper <elliott@yrl.co.uk>r > wrote: >  > >In  > > G > >A few throw-aways like "everyone wants to develop VMS code in VisualeG > >Studio don't they?" John Apps should have been lynched for that one,nJ > >but everyone sat there comatose. One person gently suggested that might > H > I got the feeling he was just trying to make the best of it. He agreedF > with the point that it would be better if we had all the developmentH > tools on VMS but had to trot out "we don't believe there is sufficient@ > demand to justify the expense of ports of development *client*C > software." He had no answer to the point "but if you prototype onsG > Windows before you know it the prototype app has gone live on Windows.G > for the frontend, application logic *and the backend database".  Even < > if it is torture to keep it semi-secure and semi-reliable. > G > I recall asking why we don't even see the Oracle JAVA developer tools'D > certified on VMS. Rich Marcello promised they would be a couple of+ > years ago. I likely still have the email.v > G > Questions were definitely muted due to the insistence by DECUS/CUO-UKtH > that questions be strictly limited. To be fair there was time pressureG > but I was certainly given the impression that the DECUS UK leadershipwF > wanted me to think very carefully about asking awkward questions.  IH > did get a chance to talk directly to Mark Gorham for about 15 mins andF > I trust him when he said "believe me Alan I hear and understand whatG > you are saying". Whether he can do much about it is the problem and Id > think he knows that. > I > >Highlight of presenter discomfort was when Alan Grieg asked how Mark GWF > >could be so upbeat about VMS future when "..your President, MichaelB > >Capellas said.. (and quoted the 'eviscerate' speech in stunning > >detail)"v > >e1 > >"er.. he was quoted out of context" said Mark.o > G > That didn't sound very convincing did it when it was pointed out that H > Capellas had said almost exactly the same thing several times  before.E > In fact the almost identical statement was first used by Winkler in-B > the same context if I recall correctly. So rather than slap down& > Winkler, Capellas chose to echo him. > H > On the plane down I found myself sitting next to one of Compaq UK's PRG > company reps and we talked about a few things. He told me that CompaqsF > was only interested in the service revenues and future Windows sales@ > opportunities from ex-DEC customers - nothing else. That's theG > direction they get from Compaq. Of course we've always suspected thisf9 > but it's obviously made very clear to the PR companies.- > J > >I had to leave a bit early. Missed the last two sessions. I was on call > >that evening. > >sG > >General atmosphere was everyone there had a long VMS history, hoping1F > >for any tidbit of good news that would keep them or their customers	 > >loyal.a > >pG > >Very few were from the targetted major global industries, apart fromdF > >folk on the fringes of the military, so there was an unspoken 'what
 > >about us?'  > >bH > >Nothing at all to dispel the feeling that the VMS group are competentJ > >engineers running a decent business inside a monster that does not evenF > >know they are there, or if it does, would prefer not to think aboutF > >them because it does not fit in with the PC/printer preconceptions. > >e > >and the beer? I was driving.a > >>
 > >Elliott >  > -- > Alan   -- eG "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent likeaE a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath.eA Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'"m% 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"v   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:51:38 +0100n% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n/ Subject: Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading 8 Message-ID: <a623hu87onjt52023rjop37ht1qnc4d21k@4ax.com>  / On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:29:49 +0100, Steve Reeceo& <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk> wrote:     >xH >I do know that several delegates did get more than their two questions,G >but only because it was felt that the issue being raised was importanteG >to all (you included Alan :-))  We wanted EVERYBODY to think carefully F >before blasting off questions, it was not victimisation Alan.  If youB >would like to discuss it off line then you're welcome to mail me.  D It's OK, I don't think I was victimized and I did get a fair shot atE questioning. If I *had* thought I had been victimized you would knowni about it :-)     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:09:13 -0400 - From: "Richard D. Piccard" <piccard@ohio.edu>u Subject: Re: misc Qnsm( Message-ID: <3D11F019.B39987E3@ohio.edu>  & Further comments interpolated below...     Carl Perkins wrote:0 > C > Kesav Tadimeti <Kesav.Tadimeti@signaltreesolutions.com> writes...:
 > }Hello all,e$ > }as usual I am sorry for the MIME. > $ > You really should try to fix that. > O > }1. How to see memory processes usage like in Task Manager? Is it the Command4 > }monitor /proc = topcpu? > E > Well, no. If you tried that command you'd find that it doesn't workm > due to improper syntax.n > I > To get a list of all processes and how much memory they are using which J > updates periodically, you can use MONITOR PROCESS. This gives you memoryN > usage, I/O count, pagefault count, and CPU time. You can change the intervalI > for updating by adding the /INTERVAL=x qualifier, where "x" is seconds.. >     < To show current memory usage of all processes, $ SHOW SYSTEM  V The /INTERACTIVE, /NET, and /BATCH qualifiers may be useful; see the HELP information.    N > }2. My PC key Delete is mapped to VT REM key. SUppose I am at a command lineK > }as in $show symbol, & I place the the cursor under the character 'w' andiK > }press the delete key to simulate REM, the command gets recalled on a newr > }prompt like shown below:  > }       $show symbol > }       $show symbol2 > }Does REM key not work as DELETE key in wondows? > H > Apparently not. Normally the "backspace" key is the only delete key onH > a VT (or VMS) type keyboard, deleting the character to the left of theG > cursor position. The "Remove" key doesn't delete anything in DCL - inTK > various editors it does a "cut" on a selected piece of text (the "Select"dJ > key also does nothing at the DCL prompt - and all the other keys on thatG > little editing keypad also don't actually do anything useful either).  >     Z The key that is to the right of the plus and equals key can be programmed in many terminalW emulators to send either a DEL or a BACKSPACE (= CNTRL/H) character; the former is whatu you want when working with VMS.e   [snip]   -- nB ==================================================================B Dick Piccard                           Academic Technology ManagerB piccard@ohio.edu                                 Computer ServicesB http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~piccard/                Ohio University   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jun 2002 00:40 CDT:' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)r5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...r- Message-ID: <20JUN200200403094@gerg.tamu.edu>n  + carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes...w   Replying to myself...M   How is this for weird:  # }There are 4 dots on the next line:  }....t3 }They may, or may not, all make it through to you. f  ? Note that there are, in fact, 4 dots in the above automatically  quoted section.t  C But this is what I actually saw when I was reading it, cut'n'pastedr and quoted manually:  # }There are 4 dots on the next line:  }...2 }They may, or may not, all make it through to you.  F So my own news client strips a leading dot from a line when displayingF the article, but includes all of them in the quoted text when replying to an article.  $ This behavior is rather sub-optimal.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:20:38 -0400o2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...a. Message-ID: <3D11C896.A993D2B2@mindspring.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  H > The right way to do things is the the way the user wants to do things.> >  The way that will allow the user to be the most productive.   What a concept, ehh? :-)  4 It's this exact thing that DEC forgot as they turned1 into Digital. And the rest is history, as is DEC.    Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 09:50:06 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)c5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...i3 Message-ID: <gIWb0SNLFgoL@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  [ In article <aeqoac016lg@enews2.newsguy.com>, "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:    > I'd find it hard toTG > believe that once the Unix boxes showed up everybody just cold-turkey.N > dropped the VMS systems and said, "wow, this Unix system is *so* much easierC > to use".  I'd suspect the transition happened because more of the-K > applications needed were available under Unix and not VMS, as well as thedJ > likelihood that Unix was/is a more recognizable O/S name and that's were( > people wanted to do their development.  F    The transition began when UNIX was unknown, and if you had a system    to do you bought a VAX.  F    It happened because the VAX got behind in performance.  People tookC    the hit to port to UNIX and never wanted to take a hit like thatu	    again.t  J    They wrapped it all up in silly open systems hype and have been pretty A    much stuck with which ever UNIX vendor they picked ever since.n   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jun 2002 15:40:58 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)-5 Subject: Re: My conversation with Linus about VMS ...-, Message-ID: <aest2a$1kl0$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  - In article <19JUN200223295413@gerg.tamu.edu>, *  carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes: |> |> _4 |> 2) That is "could" not "would". C = -.-., W = .--  1 My mistake being the result of two common errors.1  E 1.  Another hobby I don't have time for.  Haven't actually used morseM code in at least 20 years.  A 2.  The habit code users seem to develop of anticipating what the  sentence is going to say. :-)    bill   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   .   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:46:10 +0000 (UTC)' From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukE Subject: Re: NSA: Security in current mainstream operating systems vse+ Message-ID: <aesbpi$fh1$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>s  m In article <9059bf6b.0206191158.755b208b@posting.google.com>, jodonnell@hrblock.com (Jason O'Donnell) writes:d} >Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message news:<01KJ4CII230O96WTPR@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>...n. >> > d|i|g|i|t|a|l had a bolt-on called SEVMS. >> >> >> > Properly configured, it moved things up to the "B" level. >> >= >> > One of the many things that HP ought to resurrect, IMHO.s >> rE >> I think Hoff mentioned here a while back that VERY few folks were wH >> interested in buying this.  Lack of marketing?  Maybe.  On the other I >> hand, how many folks need SEVMS instead of VMS and are willing to pay   >> the premium?p >9F >It is my understanding that the DOD COE version 7.2-???? would be the >same thing. >oE >It is also my understanding that the plan is to merge those security ( >enhancements back into mainstream OVMS. > K Since the biggest difference between B1 and C2 level security is the use ofsJ Mandatory access controls (rather than C2's discretionary access controls)L ie SECRET, TOP SECRET etc levels although it is possible (maybe even likely)H that this has been added into the DOD COE version I'd think it unlikely < that that would be added into the mainstream release of VMS.  K Although the Military wanted Mandatory Access controls commercial companiese@ generally regarded them as too unwieldy and difficult to manage.  y
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University    E >Your friendly neighborhood OVMS Representative should be able to get  >that information for you. >B >JMODd   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 06:23:31 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)E Subject: Re: NSA: Security in current mainstream operating systems vsu= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206200523.6d5da10e@posting.google.com>   _ WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote in message news:<0033000068673187000002L072*@MHS>... + > d|i|g|i|t|a|l had a bolt-on called SEVMS.s > ; > Properly configured, it moved things up to the "B" level.G > : > One of the many things that HP ought to resurrect, IMHO. >  > WWWebb >  > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET>( > Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:11 AMD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETG > Subject: RE: NSA: Security in current mainstream operating systems vso >  >   > system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > >rI > > In article <3D10563D.63F8F38B@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127e	 > .0.0.1>t > writes: > >{...snip...} I > > >Some companies (e.g. Point Secure) can provide add ons which can makU >  e' > > >passing wind a security violation.l > >mH > > Why is it that other security add-ons are never mentioned, only thisH > > PointSecure, when discussing VMS security.  There are other securityH > > add-ons that have existed in VMS history long before PointSecure was" > > still wetting diapers/nappies. > H > Name them then (todays challenge). I'm not refuting it, and I'm all in& > favour of a balanced representation. > I > I remember once an auditor coming to view some systems I managed and he. > I > brought something on a tape that we had extreme trouble getting to work3 > .7I > In the end I gave him the output from some of my DCL procedures and theO > yME > seemed to exceed the quoted functionality of his so called securityt > tool.m  E I am analyzing Touch Tecnologies Polycenter security suite right now,h* and it looks pretty good for the price ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:36:52 +0100t% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>eP Subject: Re: OpenVMS, Volume Desktop OS (Re: Mark Gorham's Beer Bash in Reading)8 Message-ID: <7qu0hu41bi5oi4m1prstnpris9nthd41t4@4ax.com>  < On 18 Jun 2002 16:41:05 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:  , >In article <aen4m3$nkv$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>," > david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes: >|> . >|> No 1969 is definitely when Unix was born. = >|> First used in anger by the BTL Patent department in 1970.I >oA >Care to back that one up??  I have never seen anything that eveneB >hinted at dis-satisfaction by the typists using the original Unix2 >at Bell Labs.  Something on DR's homepage maybe??  E Hmm, in UK English "first used in anger" means "first used seriously"i   >t -- Alan   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:21:12 GMTu$ From: "labadie" <labadie_g@decus.fr>$ Subject: Re: OVMS 7.3 BACKUP problem1 Message-ID: <c8hQ8.3$dh2.177186@news.cpqcorp.net>o  ? "Ruslan R. Laishev" <Laishev@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU> wrote in message ) news:3D109615.9010704@SMTP.DeltaTel.RU...f	 > Hi All!gC > I have a problem with BACKUP behaviour after upgrade to OVMS 7.3,u/ > /CONFIRMATION qualifier does not work anymore ' > /SINCE=BACKUP as well does not effectt     Helloh  K There is a patch vms73 backup v0100, but it does not fix this very problem.n   RegardsM   Gerard   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 05:58:41 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)8 Subject: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206200458.4016c873@posting.google.com>    Terry is with the Inquirer now?p     HP Opens the McKinley Kimono     Ticker tapes out kC By Terry C. Shannon, Inquirer US News Desk, 20/06/2002 08:02:09 BSTe  A NEARER MY MCKINLEY to Thee... and perhaps a bit further away fromh! Mountain View and UltraSparc III.mD HPQ on June 19 announced outstanding performance results achieved onD an Intel Itanium 2 (McKinley)-based HP server running key components+ of a Reuters financial trading application.t  E Reuters Structured Negotiation Capability software enables buyers andyF sellers in a worldwide financial market to connect and trade with eachC other. Paul Otellini, Intel president and CEO, demonstrated the new C 4-way Itanium 2 system running the Reuters application today at thelE Securities Industry Association's Technology Management Conference ini	 New York.w  @ The test showed that the soon-to-be-announced HP 4-way Itanium 2D server logged results that were four times faster than the 8-way SunB Fire 3800 server. The result was achieved on an Itanium 2-based HPE server configured with four 1 GHz McKinley processors, 16GB of memorykE and two 18GB hard drives using a beta version of the 64-bit Microsoft  Windows OS.o  > The outcome of this Reuters application testing highlights theC outstanding performance of the Itanium 2-based servers in financialt@ trading, a particularly demanding commercial market segment. The@ McKinley-Inside HP server features the HP zx1 scalable processorF chipset and is engineered for high bandwidth, low latency and scalableC capacity applications for the most optimized Itanium 2-based serverd performance in the industry.  E "The combination of Reuters' scalable negotiation application on HP'se; high-performance system will enable a world-class financialaE transaction platform," said Lisa Hambrick, director, Intel EnterpriserC Processor Marketing. "The performance of this platform demonstratesrA the scalability and industry-leading performance of Intel Itaniumu 2-based platforms."n   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:03:33 -0400w, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com>< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III+ Message-ID: <aesnih0rls@enews3.newsguy.com>   C Well, this certainly goes into the "good new, bad news" department.o  J Good if you happen to not like Sun systems and are looking for ammunition.  L Bad because Reuters has historically been a very large Digital shop.  In theH old days they had a dedicated field service (and sales) team for each ofF their offices.  I'm sure they still have their dozens of VAX and AlphaI systems (and maybe some PDP-11s still) but this might signal that they'reo transitioning away from VMS.  G I once did some contract work at the local Reuters office and wrote a CdG application which ran on both VMS and Windows/DOS with only a recompilee5 necessary.  Maybe that was an omen of things to come?    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:28:39 GMTv* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky IIIA Message-ID: <HwmQ8.41739$_j6.2392907@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   7 "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> wrote in messaged% news:aesnih0rls@enews3.newsguy.com...yE > Well, this certainly goes into the "good new, bad news" department.a > L > Good if you happen to not like Sun systems and are looking for ammunition.  G Sounded like Terry in 'advocate' (as distinct from 'unbiased observer')aK mode, since information about the Sun configuration that would have allowedaD a more informed judgement to be made about the purported results was conspicuously absent.k  E Funny how there's *still* no release of apples-to-apples (e.g., SPEC)e comparisons...   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:16:29 -0700g' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> < Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III+ Message-ID: <3D11FFDD.1FCC3C6A@caltech.edu>d   Bob Ceculski wrote:   B > The test showed that the soon-to-be-announced HP 4-way Itanium 2F > server logged results that were four times faster than the 8-way SunD > Fire 3800 server. The result was achieved on an Itanium 2-based HPG > server configured with four 1 GHz McKinley processors, 16GB of memoryeG > and two 18GB hard drives using a beta version of the 64-bit Microsoftu
 > Windows OS.8  A Ah yes, the faithful "performance win for morons" gambit. Partial 7 information on a "comparison" is the hallmark of unfair  and misleading tests.b  ? Notice they don't say how much memory was in the Sun, what kindn= of disks either was using, or what types of network card weren9 employed.  Pretty easy to make a test go your way if yourc? "competitor" has insufficient memory, slow disks, and/or a slow @ nic. For that matter, is the Fire 3800 the current model?  We've: already seen Intel comparing Itanium to older Sparc chips.; Anybody know what this particular application does?  Was it A CPU limited on either platform?  Ie, is there any evidence AT ALL0B that the Itanium part of the HP server provided the 4X performance5 improvement, which is what the press release implies.o  C If I had to bet I'd wager that the HP had much more memory than theoD Sun (because 16Gb is still a lot of memory) and that this particularB application was able to make use of it (if only for disk caching).C Now HP might have a selling point still if the Sun cannot hold thatcG much memory - but it would  have nothing to do with Itanium performancet per se.    Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 08:40:38 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)+ Subject: Re: rooted devices and /TRANS=CONCa< Message-ID: <343f30ae.0206200740.fdd1170@posting.google.com>  ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3D113C90.CC04D04A@fsi.net>... > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > > C > > Comments interspersed below with a new example included! (well,Y > > slightly new)C > > d > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3D0FEFBC.3DF012C9@fsi.net>... > > > [snip]* > > > Let me highlight the key item there: > > >wK > > > "If the leftmost component ends with a colon, space, comma, or a linedN > > > terminator (for example, Return), the system attempts to translate it asN > > > a logical name. If the leftmost component ends with any other character,E > > > the system does not attempt to translate it as a logical name."a > > >"J > > > Now applying that iteratively, "BBB" (the translation of your "AAA")L > > > ends with "B", not a colon (":"); likewise, "DKA0" (the translation ofN > > > my "DJD") ends with "0", not a colon. So, this (what you're seeing) *IS* > > > the documented behavior.    C I can't believe I missed this the first time. It doesn't end with at "B". Anyway, see below.n   [snip]/ > > "Logical name translation can be iterative:h > 2 > Check that: "can be" != "must be" != "is always" >  > > after the system > > translatesF > > a logical name, it repeats the translation process for any logical< > > names it finds contained within the first logical name." > > F > > Is BBB not "contained withing the first logical name", AAA? It is. > E > *BUT* - and this is a big one: apply the rule of terminators as you  > quoted in an earlier posting:e > K > > > "If the leftmost component ends with a colon, space, comma, or a line-N > > > terminator (for example, Return), the system attempts to translate it asN > > > a logical name. If the leftmost component ends with any other character,E > > > the system does not attempt to translate it as a logical name."l > I > Again: "BBB" ends with a "B", *NOT*, repeat __N_O_T__ a colon (":") !!!e > B > So, according to the documentation: *MUST* the system attempt to; > translate it? According to the quote, the answer is "no".s    % So according to your interpretation, n       $ DEFINE AAA BBB     $ DEFINE BBB DKA100:     $ DIR AAA:[FELDMAN]   F should fail because BBB[FELDMAN] is invalid. But it doesn't fail!!! ItD works! So according to you, VMS is breaking its own rules, of courseC excepting the case where we add /TRAN=CONC to the first command. Soc" why is VMS breaking its own rules?  F Language is just not precise enough here. What exactly does it mean to translate AAA?   $ DEFINE AAA DKA100:[FELDMAN]e   $ DIREC/TOTAL AAA:  3 Directory DKA100:[FELDMAN]  < Total of 74 files.   $ DIREC/TOTAL AAA:    Directory DKA100:[FELDMAN]  M Total of 74 files.    E So the precise meaning of logical name translation is a little fuzzy. C In the first DIREC command, AAA --> DKA100:[FELDMAN]. But if we didw7 that in the second DIREC command, we would get AAA: --> A DKA100:[FELDMAN]:! Now we both know that that doesn't happen. VMSs? "smartly" removes the "extra" colon when necesary. Now, another  example.   $ DEFINE AAA BBB $ DEFINE BBB DKA100: $ DIREC AAA:[FELDMAN]/TOTALr    Directory DKA100:[FELDMAN]  K Total of 74 files. $M  * If we do AAA --> BBB, all is well. We get    $ DIREC BBB:[FELDMAN]/TOTALc  E Now the leftmost component clearly ends with a colon!!! not a B!!! SoaB iterative translation should happen, and does. But BBB --> DKA100:D would yield DIREC DKA100::[FELDMAN]/TOTAL! which has an extra colon.3 But VMS "smartly" removes that extra colon for you.   5 Let's see that again in slow motion instant replay:-)r   $ DEFINE AAA BBB $ DEFINE BBB DKA100: $ DIREC AAA:[FELDMAN]/TOTALl   - remove the AAA -     DIREC    :[FELDMAN]/TOTALi   - add BBB -w     DIREC BBB:[FELDMAN]/TOTALa  D - the leftmost component is BBB: and ends with a colon, so translate it - - remove BBB -     DIREC    :[FELDMAN]/TOTAL    - add DKA100: -      DIREC DKA100::[FELDMAN]/TOTALb  > - well, we can't have that now; let's remove the extra colon -     DIREC DKA100:[FELDMAN]/TOTAL   Directory DKA100:[FELDMAN]  n Total of 74 files. $t  9 Now let's do the same thing but adding a colon to line 1:m   $ DEFINE AAA BBB:e $ DEFINE BBB DKA100: $ DIREC AAA:[FELDMAN]/TOTAL-  - Directory DKA100:[FELDMAN]  J Total of 74 files. $r  1 [imagine another slow-motion instant replay here]j  A It still works! If we simply assume AAA --> BBB: as in the DEFINE2A statement, we would get DIREC BBB::[FELDMAN]/TOTAL, again with anm7 extra colon, and we know that that is not what happens.   > So just exactly what does it mean to translate a logical name?D Translation is not always strict substitution based on the argumentsC originally given to the DEFINE command. Extra colons are removed as2E needed. And *that* is not documented at all (except by the examples).a  F So when you say BBB ends with a B, you are assuming that AAA: --> BBB,* which I don't believe ever really happens.     > > SoI > > it should get translated. And it *DOES* get translated AS LONG AS YOUv? > > DON'T INCLUDE /TRANS=CONC IN YOUR "DEFINE AAA BBB" command.d > H > O.k. You keep harping on that, so let's explore it in a little greater	 > detail:6    C I keep "harping" on that because that was the question in the firstiD place! That's why the subject is "rooted devices and /TRANS=CONC"!!!	 Sheeeesh.m    $ > Which of the following make sense: >  > $ DEFINE AAA BBB/TRAN=CONC > C > Does this make sense? Well, I can see what you might be trying toIC > achieve. However, according to the rules as documented as well asRI > observed behavior, it does not reliably produce the desired result. So,E > no, it doesn't make sense.    F It makes perfect sense. It works fine without /TRAN=CONC. Why does VMSD insist that there be a trailing colon for BBB only in the /TRAN=CONC case? THAT, is the question.    ( > $ DEFINE BBB DKA0:[FELDMAN.]/TRAN=CONC > F > Does this make sense? Sure. Another example would be SYS$SPECIFIC orI > even SYS$SYSROOT (just because its a search list, doesn't mean that them/ > /TRANSLATION_ATTRIBUTES can't vary by index).  > 1 > $ DEFINE SYSUAF SYS$SYSTEM:SYSUAF.DAT/TRAN=CONCn > B > Does this make sense? (The answer is left as an exercise for the
 > reader.)    D Well, at some level it makes sense, but VMS clearly doesn't like it.@ You can do it without the /TRAN=CONC, and maybe you want the rawC file-spec "hidden". I could see that work. But VMS won't let you doiB it. The qualifier /TRANS=CONC appears to work only for devices andE rooted devices and only when you use a colon in the equivalence name.     
 > > [snip]G > > I claim that the documentation is ***not clear*** about whether youeG > > should include a trailing colon in the equivalence name in a DEFINEoB > > statement ***WHEN THE EQUIVALENCE NAME IS ALSO ANOTHER LOGICAL > > NAME***. > & > Dunno - it seems plain enough to me.    D Just where does the fine manual say anything about equivalence names$ that are also (other) logical names?  9 Well, it almost does. From the DCL Dictionary for DEFINE:c  @ When you specify an equivalence name that will be used as a file> specification, you must include the punctuation marks (colons,F brackets, periods) that would be required if the equivalence name wereB used directly as a file specification. Therefore, if you specify aF device name as an equivalence name, you must terminate the equivalence name with a colon.  D OK, you could interpret that to mean that you should end equivalence@ names that are also (other) logical names with a colon, but it's certainly not 100% clear.e    A > > Experience proves that you should include it when the logical- > > name will be a file-spec.  >  > Dunno. Let's go ask VMS... > " > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ sh log sysuaf: >    "SYSUAF" = "SYS$SYSTEM:SYSUAF.DAT" (LNM$JOB_80D13C40)* > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ define vmsuaf sysuaf: > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ dir vmsuafr >  > Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]p > @ > SYSUAF.DAT;1              36/36       22-MAY-2000 14:48:51.75  > (RWED,RWED,,)  >   > Total of 1 file, 36/36 blocks./ > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ open/read/share uaf vmsuafe > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ close uaf$ > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$ copy vmsuaf nl:3 > %COPY-E-WRITEERR, error writing NL:[]SYSUAF.DAT;1S? > -RMS-F-IOP, operation invalid for file organization or deviceaI > %COPY-W-NOTCMPLT, SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SYSUAF.DAT;1 not completely copied' > DJAS01::DDACHTERA$   > J > Well, the copy failed, but not because the translation was bogus. In theI > case of a complete (or even partial) filespec. (remember SYS$SYLOGIN?),r> > I'd say the colon is meaningless in the second-layer DEFINE.    ( What does this have to do with anything?    , > > When the LNM will be a queue name, it isI > > actually better to *NOT* include a trailing colon, as a previous postP > > of mine made clear.r > & > Well, again, that's what I'd expect. > J > Where we seem to get balled up is in the discussion of /TRAN=CONC. WhereI > it makes sense to use it, it would also make sense to observe the rulese > associated with it, no?m    " What rules are you talking about?   
 [begin quote]s) /TRANSLATION_ATTRIBUTES[=(keyword[,...])]1 Equivalence-name qualifier.   E Specifies one or more attributes that modify an equivalence string ofx> the logical name. Possible keywords are as follows: CONCEALED @ Indicates that the equivalence string is the name of a concealedD device. When a concealed device name is defined, the system displaysF the logical name, rather than the equivalence string, in messages that refer to the device. [end quote]   C I don't see any rules here concerning trailing colons and the like.i  C Anyway, the question was "Why does VMS let you get away without the-D trailing colon in the equivalence name when said equivalence name isD also another logical name *only* when you don't specify /TRANS=CONC?   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmane afeldman gfigroup coms   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2002 01:06:31 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Q Subject: SEVMS and friends. was: NSA: Security in current mainstream operating...T3 Message-ID: <87u1nxkhgo.fsf_-_@k9.prep.synonet.com>   F Encryption is now on the CONdist, SEVMS is a special kit I guess. WhatD happened to the 3DES transcievers, and the key software for them and the RF drives?   -- -< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.b@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 06:38:07 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)* Subject: Re: Sun/Slowaris future in doubt!< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206200538.3bd4a7a@posting.google.com>  \ David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message news:<3D0E5C5E.6060309@tsoft-inc.com>...- > I don't know why I try, but, one more time.t >  > Bob Ceculski wrote:C > A > > Since everyone here is so quick to speculate that Itanium/VMSl > | > Don't invent what doesn't exist.  Itanium is a CPU.  VMS is an operating system.  Each are separate and distinct entities. > m > I for one feel that the VMS port to the IA-64 architecture will be successful.  At least as far as working.e > L > I also feel that Itanium will crater.  As Paul has in his sig, "EPIC, the Q > architecture of the future, always has been, always will be", this is one idea  P > which has far outlived it's lifespan.  It can be included with other failures M > such as VAX 9000 and other experiments that didn't meet their expectations.a > 7 > > will fail, why are saying that Sun/Hammer will not?uB > > Makes no sense, esp. when pitting Alpha/VMS engineers againset > > Sun/AMD engineers, > S > It's been rumored that there are plenty of ex-Alpha people at AMD.  They've been eS > working on the Hammer concept for quire a while.  The Alpha people transfered to  P > Intel have not had much to do with IA-64, except to redicule it in past white N > papers.  Now you expect them to turn the piece of shit into a rasty pudding? > ( >  I would expect Itanium VMS chances of6 > > survival to be a heck of alot better than Sun/AMD!) > > We all know that Sparky chip is dead t > S > I don't think that you can assume that.  It depends upon the resolve of Sun, and  Q > what they decide to do.  Hammer or IA-64 makes more sense for Sun than it ever rN > did for Compaq.  They might be pursuaded by similar arguments.  They may be  > valid for Sun. >  > ... unless they can = > > keep adding on more chips ... 512, 1024, 2048, to get theeA > > thing to look like it can run fast ... so Alpha is dead after@F > > EV7, and sparc is dead now ... EV7 will outperform sparc by years,@ > > the question is, why buy Sun/Slowaris?  Hammer One right now > > looks like Itanic one .... > R > I don't think so.  While numbers aren't real available for Hammer at this time, Q > it isn't hampered by the EPIC ideas, which will kill IA-64.  Also, Hammer runs  Q > 32 bit apps and is a valid replacement for IA-32.  Best of both worlds.  IA-32 -R > and 64 bit apps.  Hammer is a jack of all trades, and will fit in enough places & > that Intel could be in real trouble. >  s > Dave  B and if itanic/epic does fail, I say that is why Intel bought Alpha? insurance and you will see EV8 - EV9 pop up again with an InteltB logo on it ... Intel will not risk the failure, and a Hammer knock@ off will not help them compete in the high end, only Alpha would3 then ... of course, Bill Todd disagrees with me ...I   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:25:58 GMTF# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>w* Subject: Re: Sun/Slowaris future in doubt!J Message-ID: <qmnQ8.418557$t8_.376314@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messages6 news:d7791aa1.0206200538.3bd4a7a@posting.google.com... >aD > and if itanic/epic does fail, I say that is why Intel bought AlphaA > insurance and you will see EV8 - EV9 pop up again with an IntelfD > logo on it ... Intel will not risk the failure, and a Hammer knockB > off will not help them compete in the high end, only Alpha would5 > then ... of course, Bill Todd disagrees with me ...-  L Thanks to Digital/Compaq/HP, it will be Microsoft that benefits the most if,L as, and when IA64 flops. They will have a perfectly credible (in many fool's$ eyes) 64-bit os that runs on Hammer.  K Nobody in the MS-space will trust HP to supply hardware to them, even it itoE was Hammer-based. "Hello Dell, I'd like to place a very large order."r  I And as to the poor unix/VMS/NSK types who bought the Intel/Compaq/HP line H about how good IA64 will be, they will take their cash and chant the new motto, "In IBM we trust".    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:53:37 +0200i- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> @ Subject: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing' Message-ID: <3D12088F.E2CACB41@Free.fr>t  4 [disclaimer: this is a *true* story, written my way]    N I went to visit a Customer today. They have a huge plant, where trees enter byP one side and paper exits by the other. All this driven by a cluster of two 4100,N a thousand of Fortran (77) programs, Rdb and PC-driven automats. Bob was their uncle since 15 years.W  L Then a new CEO came and said: "IT close future will be UNIX/Oracle". Period.  P An Oracle guru came later and installed Oracle Server on a PC. He gave a demo to the VMS folks here.e   This happened during the demo:   [start]vN Someone asked: "Is this real robust software compared to Rdb/VMS?" (they still	 say VMS).f   Oracle guru said: "sure".t  1 VMS system manager asked: "may I type a command?"G   Oracle guru: "Sure"o  L The VMS guy deleted the Oracle demo database with a command like f$trnlnm("$ delete oracle.db;*","unix")t  N Oracle Guru: "you see, the db is deleted but we still have access to the data,3 because they were in a cache. This is really good".    VMS guy: ...  ? Oracle Kernel said: "database corrupted, Sir, cannot continue."-  L VMS guy to Oracle guru: "one can delete a file opened in update mode on your
 system, Sir?":  X Oracle guru: "Well, you see, I'm just an Oracle specialist, not an UNIX system manager." [end]   P The VMS system manager wrote a report to his manager, who sent the report to theM IT manager, with some comments on the fact that maybe they could keep VMS foroP the moment. The IT manager sent the report and the comments with his comments to the new CEO.  P What do you think occurred? The new CEO purchased two ES40/OpenVMS 7.3/Oracle 8.  L Moral: "The reason of the strongest (in marketing, advertising, support [addK your favourites in here] is not always the best one" (Jean de la Fontaine).m  % (with a special thank you to Stan R.)s   D. --  2   ------------------------------------------------2 MORANDI Consultants  http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr0   19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.2 Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax: +33 (0)5 6154 19282 OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans2 --------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jun 2002 13:13:00 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)   Subject: Re: timeout restriction, Message-ID: <aeskcs$1g7q$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  2 In article <3D10EFD3.55B94296@firstdbasource.com>,4  Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> writes: |> Chuck Aaron wrote:  |> >  J |> > Does anyone know how to remove a timeout restriction for a particular* |> > user from being timed off the system? |> > n
 |> > chuck |>  K |> Depends on what is used to create the "timeout". Inactive? Active? ThereaK |> are many ways to accomplish this. Contact your system administrator.  Het8 |> is the only one who can fix it.  Lowly users can't :)  5 Running Pine used to be good for fooling HITMAN.  :-),   bill   -- nJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 09:45:30 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)M  Subject: Re: timeout restriction3 Message-ID: <xWB9MEq+QKfZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  Z In article <3D114945.FEF4BA4@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: > < > Sure! How 'bout: "My system crashed. What went wrong?" :-)  A    Dave, you loaded Windows on your system?  That's what's wrong!s  2    Whatever got you to do such a crazy thing?  8-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:28:03 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: unix historya. Message-ID: <3D11CA53.FE766ACE@mindspring.com>   Simon Clubley wrote:  H > In that case, which version of FreeBSD do you recommend that newcomers > to FreeBSD start with ?0  , The MacOS/X version. (Well, I *THINK* that's a FreeBSD.)g   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:35:50 +0000 2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> Subject: Re: unix historyt3 Message-ID: <20020620123550.B3530@eisenschmidt.org>t  S Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Atlant Schmidt (atlantnospam@mindspring.com) Wrote:e > Simon Clubley wrote: > J > > In that case, which version of FreeBSD do you recommend that newcomers > > to FreeBSD start with ?  > . > The MacOS/X version. (Well, I *THINK* that's
 > a FreeBSD.)  >  > Atlant   As I understand it, it's actually not BSD at all. It's based on the Mach kernel and has some BSDisms, but isn't based on BSD itself.  - http://www.apple.com/macosx/server/specs.html/  W"Based on the Mach 3.0 microkernel and BSD UNIX, Darwin is the rock-solid foundation that gives Mac OS X Server its remarkable stability and performance, with such coveted features as protected memory, preemptive multitasking, symmetric multiprocessing, advanced memory management, and the latest in networking technologies." - blah blah blah.i   I think some of the tools it has were ported from NetBSD, but keep in mind the foundations of it have been in development for what - 10 years? I remember Rhapsody Betas floating around in like 1997. e   -- c/ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>t6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenM  GPG Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.asc D  GPG Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:05:58 -0400a2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: unix historyD. Message-ID: <3D11D336.D322AEE5@mindspring.com>   John Eisenschmidt wrote:  L > > > In that case, which version of FreeBSD do you recommend that newcomers > > > to FreeBSD start with ?g > >n0 > > The MacOS/X version. (Well, I *THINK* that's > > a FreeBSD.)g > >s
 > > Atlant >v > As I understand it, it's actually not BSD at all. It's based on the Mach kernel and has some BSDisms, but isn't based on BSD itself.  1 At http://developer.apple.com/unix/ , Apple says:A      Mac OS X and the Power of UNIX  1   Beneath the appealing, easy-to-use interface ofn/   Mac OS X, you'll find an industrial-strength,O0   UNIX-based foundation called Darwin. This open4   source core of Mac OS X is highly stable and built   on mature technology:   1    o A Mach 3.0 kernel with support for symmetric        multiprocessing.  6    o Based on 4.4BSD with networking from FreeBSD 3.2.  !    o Support for most POSIX APIs.   0    o Popular UNIX development tools such as gcc,&       gdb, vi, emacs, pico, Perl, etc.  2    o Popular UNIX shell tools such as grep, chmod,"       ps, crontab, top, tail, etc.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 09:38:51 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)t Subject: Re: unix historyk3 Message-ID: <5Lgj$+wgWzzg@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  c In article <3D11CA53.FE766ACE@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:a > Simon Clubley wrote: > I >> In that case, which version of FreeBSD do you recommend that newcomersu >> to FreeBSD start with ? > . > The MacOS/X version. (Well, I *THINK* that's
 > a FreeBSD.)t  A    It's a BSD on top of a Mach kernel, but I've not seen any infoe'    suggesting it's releated to FreeBSD.S   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jun 2002 14:53:12 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)m Subject: Re: unix history , Message-ID: <aesq8o$1j7u$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  . In article <3D11CA53.FE766ACE@mindspring.com>,5  Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:t |> Simon Clubley wrote:l |>  K |> > In that case, which version of FreeBSD do you recommend that newcomersn |> > to FreeBSD start with ? |>  / |> The MacOS/X version. (Well, I *THINK* that'sm |> a FreeBSD.)  0 Only at the user level.  The kernel is not.  :-(   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   t   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jun 2002 15:12:22 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)q Subject: Re: unix history , Message-ID: <aesrcm$1j7u$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <5Lgj$+wgWzzg@eisner.encompasserve.org>,a0  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:f |> In article <3D11CA53.FE766ACE@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes: |> > Simon Clubley wrote:v |> >  L |> >> In that case, which version of FreeBSD do you recommend that newcomers |> >> to FreeBSD start with ?s |> > r1 |> > The MacOS/X version. (Well, I *THINK* that'so |> > a FreeBSD.) |>  D |>    It's a BSD on top of a Mach kernel, but I've not seen any info* |>    suggesting it's releated to FreeBSD. |> s    6 http://news.zdnet.co.uk/story/0,,t269-s2090090,00.html   bill   -- EJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:01:28 GMTf# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>u Subject: Re: unix historypH Message-ID: <ITnQ8.89305$831.75645@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  * Send Steve Jobs an email to get the facts.    ? "Atlant Schmidt" <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote in message ( news:3D11D336.D322AEE5@mindspring.com... > John Eisenschmidt wrote: >bD > > > > In that case, which version of FreeBSD do you recommend that	 newcomersa > > > > to FreeBSD start with ?L > > >r2 > > > The MacOS/X version. (Well, I *THINK* that's > > > a FreeBSD.)h > > >  > > > Atlant > >hL > > As I understand it, it's actually not BSD at all. It's based on the Mach; kernel and has some BSDisms, but isn't based on BSD itself.  >f3 > At http://developer.apple.com/unix/ , Apple says:d >p" >   Mac OS X and the Power of UNIX > 3 >   Beneath the appealing, easy-to-use interface ofk1 >   Mac OS X, you'll find an industrial-strength,e2 >   UNIX-based foundation called Darwin. This open6 >   source core of Mac OS X is highly stable and built >   on mature technology:[ >.3 >    o A Mach 3.0 kernel with support for symmetricr >       multiprocessing. >a8 >    o Based on 4.4BSD with networking from FreeBSD 3.2. > # >    o Support for most POSIX APIs.  >t2 >    o Popular UNIX development tools such as gcc,( >       gdb, vi, emacs, pico, Perl, etc. >e4 >    o Popular UNIX shell tools such as grep, chmod,$ >       ps, crontab, top, tail, etc. >  >e >o   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 23:30:17 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>Y Subject: Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A Proposal for Alla0 Message-ID: <87y9daj7cm.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  3 "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:   B > I could have him do that, but he's on vaction for the next week!  : So, that's the ideal time for him to volunteer isn't it :)   -- l< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:04:34 -0400 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> Y Subject: Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A Proposal for All62 Message-ID: <3D11E0F2.2A952B87@firstdbasource.com>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:u > < > "Adam Price" <adam+usenet@pappnase.co.uk> wrote in message1 > news:aeqrfg$97kh3$1@ID-138239.news.dfncis.de...oK > > I think I read somewhere that Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@attbi.com> 
 > wrote ... :7 > > >2C > > > I have a hastily-shot 325KB JPEG of my original VMS MARKETING.H > > > VOLUNTEERS, LTD. biz card that I'd be glad to send to anyone who'dK > > > like to take a look (a professional photographer I am not, but you'llcJ > > > get the idea). VISTAPRINT.COM will print you up 250 of these puppies: > > > for about ten-twelve bucks. Money well spent, sez I. > > >e= > > > Drop me a line if you'd like me to mail you the JPEG...eD > > Why not see if Ken Farmer will put a copy up on www.openvms.org? > > Adam Price > B > I could have him do that, but he's on vaction for the next week!    H http://www.firstdbasource.com/  -- click on the VMS Marketing VolunteersC link to see the "official?!?!?!???" Business card.  Maybe Terry canI, contact VistaPrint and cut us a "bulk" deal.   Blatent Advert:hG And if you are in the market for an Oracle(classic and Rdb) DBA/VMS SyswF Admin/VMS-or-Unix Web Admin - onsite or remote, let me know as well :)   --   Regards,  6 Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19847 First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163.7 Sr. Consultant            http://www.firstdbasource.comrE                           http://www.firstdbasource.com/donation.html / 704-947-1089 (Office)     704-236-4377 (Mobile)h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:17:20 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>Y Subject: Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A Proposal for AllS) Message-ID: <3D11F200.57BDD339@127.0.0.1>h   Michael Austin wrote:I >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:, > > > > > "Adam Price" <adam+usenet@pappnase.co.uk> wrote in message3 > > news:aeqrfg$97kh3$1@ID-138239.news.dfncis.de...eM > > > I think I read somewhere that Terry C. Shannon <terryshannon@attbi.com>e > > wrote ... :  > > > >nE > > > > I have a hastily-shot 325KB JPEG of my original VMS MARKETINGeJ > > > > VOLUNTEERS, LTD. biz card that I'd be glad to send to anyone who'dM > > > > like to take a look (a professional photographer I am not, but you'llaL > > > > get the idea). VISTAPRINT.COM will print you up 250 of these puppies< > > > > for about ten-twelve bucks. Money well spent, sez I. > > > > ? > > > > Drop me a line if you'd like me to mail you the JPEG...,F > > > Why not see if Ken Farmer will put a copy up on www.openvms.org? > > > Adam Price > >2D > > I could have him do that, but he's on vaction for the next week! > J > http://www.firstdbasource.com/  -- click on the VMS Marketing VolunteersE > link to see the "official?!?!?!???" Business card.  Maybe Terry can . > contact VistaPrint and cut us a "bulk" deal.  H Ah, I love the job title, so not only do I have a new name, I can have a new job title.   C.P. Charges VMS Evangelist ...A  G I suppose I should have a UK flag, or even England, but I'm not a footy- fan.  G (There is of course the three quid for 20 machine in Knutsford Services"F on the M6 and other establishments, as used by the Royle Family (sic - Dave Best)).  $ > Blatent Advert:lI > And if you are in the market for an Oracle(classic and Rdb) DBA/VMS SysiH > Admin/VMS-or-Unix Web Admin - onsite or remote, let me know as well :)   -- i? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesu nclews at csc dot comE   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:38:30 +0000t  From: Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com Subject: What is/was LESACP?: Message-ID: <OFE6065487.28CF855B-ON00256BDE.005B4E2B@btyp>   I seem to have forgotten!-  J It isn't in the manuals any more, but it has popped up on one of our nodesI and I just need to know what it is and what might have caused it to starto	 up again.    Thanks   Steve Sn      F ______________________________________________________________________     [Information] -- PostMaster:D This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beG confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message hasIG been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,w$ distribute or use this transmission.  H Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isG not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have receivedMK this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message.s  
 Thank you.  D Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.; Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.h  I Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire,)D RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:55:57 +0200e. From: "Jesper Naur" <jesper.naur@post.tele.dk>  Subject: Re: What is/was LESACP?= Message-ID: <3d11fa6a$0$71620$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk>d  - <Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com> wrote in messageb4 news:OFE6065487.28CF855B-ON00256BDE.005B4E2B@btyp... >f > I seem to have forgotten!t > I I seem to recall, that it m-a-y-b-e has something to do with X.25, but Im 	 not sure.u       Best regards     Jesper Naurt   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 11:01:59 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)a  Subject: Re: What is/was LESACP?3 Message-ID: <75QbCEqQIxOn@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  ] In article <OFE6065487.28CF855B-ON00256BDE.005B4E2B@btyp>, Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes:u >  > I seem to have forgotten!n > L > It isn't in the manuals any more, but it has popped up on one of our nodesK > and I just need to know what it is and what might have caused it to startg > up again.p  B The internals of a kernel-mode dispatcher designed for general use but mainly used for...    	 ...X.25 ?u   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 17:02:59 +0100t* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>  Subject: Re: What is/was LESACP?, Message-ID: <aesuat$193g@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  b <Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com> wrote in message news:OFE6065487.28CF855B-ON00256BDE.005B4E2B@btyp...    L > It isn't in the manuals any more, but it has popped up on one of our nodesK > and I just need to know what it is and what might have caused it to start  > up again.l  G Somewhere in the synchronous comms / X.25 realm. My memory is hazy too.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:02:08 +0100P' From: Elliott Roper <elliott@yrl.co.uk>-  Subject: Re: What is/was LESACP?2 Message-ID: <200620021802081424%elliott@yrl.co.uk>  C In article <75QbCEqQIxOn@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Larry Kilgallenu <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote:  < > In article <OFE6065487.28CF855B-ON00256BDE.005B4E2B@btyp>,$ > Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com writes: > >  > > I seem to have forgotten!f > > N > > It isn't in the manuals any more, but it has popped up on one of our nodesM > > and I just need to know what it is and what might have caused it to startf
 > > up again.> > D > The internals of a kernel-mode dispatcher designed for general use > but mainly used for... >  >  > ...X.25 ?   E and.. Digital CIT (Computer Integrated Telephony) Which we still haveo= it in serious everyday use at a couple of our customer sites.o  B Originally it was an internal DEC thing for various comms productsC including the X.25 and SNA gateway and had something to do with theaE DEMSA in general. It might have been developed at Reading UK. The CIT  certainly was. Elliotte   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:53:05 -0500-/ From: "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> 5 Subject: RE: What kind of morons work at the FDA now?:T Message-ID: <92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C553@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us>  J Alpha is dead, that's what was announced.  Granted there are organizationsK that already have an Alpha investment that will continue to purchase Alpha, K but sales to new customers will be few and far between because of the AlphaeK retirement announcement.  Maybe the announcement of the retirement of Alpha L was not handled correctly? How long were new VAXes available after Alpha wasI introduced?  Customers who were on the VAX platform had plenty of time tomL transition to Alpha because VAX EOL was not announced until long after Alpha6 was available, and had begun to establish credibility.   EdE **Please apply a generous amount of all the usual disclaimers here.**a     > -----Original Message-----8 > From: bob@instantwhip.com [mailto:bob@instantwhip.com]% > Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 9:45 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come3 > Subject: What kind of morons work at the FDA now?  >  > D > Sun is likely to win FDA business - because notes we took from the> > extensive presentation show that while Linux is reliable andD > economical, it is not considered as a suitable enterprise databaseD > server operating system for such a big US government organisation. > > > Slowaris is a suitable database OS ... when did this happen? > H > The report - damning for both the current bosses at HPQ and at Intel -B > says that while Itaniums may reduce the cost of computing, it isH > "still unproven" and may not "flourish" for at least one to two years. > F > well, dummies, their is something coming out there called EV7, which > byG > early estimates will blow the socks off of sparc, hammer, jammer, andc? > any other inferior 64 bit platform out there ... am I missinge > somethingnF > here?  EV7 is just out now, with EV79 upgrades the next year or two, > andoE > if my second grade math is correct, 1 plus 1 is two, so EV7-79 willn > nothH > due them for a few years while they wait to see the outcome of itanium@ > before wasting tax payers dollars moving onto a slow, unsecure
 > platformD > like Slowaris?  EV7 would due them the next five years easily.  No > wonder6 > the govt. is going broke!  Morons!  Absolute idiots! > G > The FDA is even considering using AMD Hammer processors, according to- > the documents we saw.  > H > Now that definitely proves who we are dealing here with ... Hammer has > justF > had announced delays, and early tests showed it is an overated chip, > andmF > hammer is more proven than Itanium?  Boy is stupidity showing itselfD > in the FDA!  Morons, imbiciles, idiots!  And these people make six > figure
 > incomes? >    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:16:17 +0100t* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>5 Subject: Re: What kind of morons work at the FDA now?B, Message-ID: <aesrjc$10kc@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  : "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in messageN news:92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C553@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us...  3 > How long were new VAXes available after Alpha was.K > introduced?  Customers who were on the VAX platform had plenty of time to N > transition to Alpha because VAX EOL was not announced until long after Alpha8 > was available, and had begun to establish credibility.  O True. On the other hand, processor development on VAX pretty much stopped dead.o' At least Alpha gets another generation.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:17:51 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>-0 Subject: Re: Why is Compaq memory so expensive ?8 Message-ID: <jel3hu4aqfds2jcue0asqrgofp87l6c4sa@4ax.com>  @ On Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:33:13 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  k >In article <yrQO8.292$6a.137@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "C.W.Holeman II" <cwhii5@ACM5.org> writes:t  >>system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: >>G >>> In article <ugmf9ibhrguaa9@news.supernews.com>, "Island (hpaq.net)"># >>> <dbturner@islandco.com> writes:a >>>>Even bettere >>>>J >>>>Most Compaq memory IS Infineon memory with the compaq hologram sticker >>>>added to ity >>>>8 >>>>That is the big difference - a 19,200 Euro sticker ! >>>  >>> 2 >>> Wow!  Holograms are that expensive to produce? >>0 >>No, just to sell, all that marketing and such. >i5 >Facetious sarcasm is so wasted in this newsgroup. :(>  E No, No it's actually a Holo-Emitter chip. Just like the doctor has inn voyager :-)p -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:23:54 +0200o' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>nE Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases*( Message-ID: <3D11911A.94B22C21@spam.not>   david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:  > T > In article <3D01D48B.7D519CD2@spam.not>, Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> writes:2 > >Suggestions to port apps developed on other OSs( > >come up in this NG from time to time. > >n8 > >To satisfy VMS users it is normally not sufficient to8 > >simply port apps while not really integrating it into4 > >VMS. A decent port would make use of specific VMS5 > >features where appropriate like CDL with carefullys8 > >chosen parameter types (and qualifier names) that fit5 > >in and like using RMS instead of flat/stream filesa7 > >and with standard installation procedures like PCSI.. > >A > H > Come off it. 90+% of public domain software ported to VMS doesn't meet$ > your criteria for a "Decent port".I > They still work and I am grateful for them. I think most VMS users want>H > to see the apps - they don't really care that much about niceties such& > as using the CDL, PCSI or VMSINSTAL.   Why not use it under UNIX?    2 > >As long as the vast majority of programmers use1 > >crap languages like C or C++ the vast majoritye0 > >of SW will not reach a level of quality which > >qualifies for use under VMS.  > F > Rubbish. You can write bad or good code in any programming language.  H Not the point. Please read my post on RLC's post just a few minutes ago.  H > As long as the software isn't available noone will consider using VMS.  G And why should someone consider using VMS for using the same crappy SW t$ that is already available with UNIX?   -- r? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, r@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequenceo   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:46:39 +0000 (UTC)  From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.ukE Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases + Message-ID: <aesfav$hd1$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>   R In article <3D11911A.94B22C21@spam.not>, Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> writes:  >david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote: >> ,U >> In article <3D01D48B.7D519CD2@spam.not>, Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> writes:s3 >> >Suggestions to port apps developed on other OSse) >> >come up in this NG from time to time.o >> >9 >> >To satisfy VMS users it is normally not sufficient tob9 >> >simply port apps while not really integrating it intof5 >> >VMS. A decent port would make use of specific VMSh6 >> >features where appropriate like CDL with carefully9 >> >chosen parameter types (and qualifier names) that fit.6 >> >in and like using RMS instead of flat/stream files8 >> >and with standard installation procedures like PCSI. >> > >> uI >> Come off it. 90+% of public domain software ported to VMS doesn't meetI% >> your criteria for a "Decent port". J >> They still work and I am grateful for them. I think most VMS users wantI >> to see the apps - they don't really care that much about niceties sucho' >> as using the CDL, PCSI or VMSINSTAL.N >R >Why not use it under UNIX?s >:  & Why is any software ported to any OS ?G Why do people port software developed under solaris to AIX, Linux etc ?m  M An operating system is just a big paperweight which uses a lot of electricity $ if it doesn't have any applications.K Some products which get ported are "nice to haves". Other are essential for1C a modern OS. Others are essential for communication with other OSs.aG Some fall into all three of these categories at diffent points in time.,  7 SSH for instance was a "nice to have" a few years back.tN Since SSH use has become widespread on other platforms it is now required by a7 lot of organisations for communication between systems. N Unless something changes in the near future SSH will become a feature required for any modern OS.  B SSH is far from unique the same process happened with web servers.  O Now you could say that certain applications don't need to be ported to VMS thataC you can use them on other systems - your why not use it under UNIX.d  I We have seen where this leads. This was exactly the argument which led ton$ VMS being consigned to the high-end.@ Windows controls the desktop so why have any office apps on VMS.  " Why have any office apps on UNIX ?# Everybody should be using Word.  :)d   > 3 >> >As long as the vast majority of programmers usea2 >> >crap languages like C or C++ the vast majority1 >> >of SW will not reach a level of quality whicho  >> >qualifies for use under VMS. >> eG >> Rubbish. You can write bad or good code in any programming language.  >GI >Not the point. Please read my post on RLC's post just a few minutes ago.  > I >> As long as the software isn't available noone will consider using VMS.t >eH >And why should someone consider using VMS for using the same crappy SW % >that is already available with UNIX?? >   < Because of its increased reliabilty, security and stability.D Unlike Windows a bad user mode application doesn't crash the system.F As well as our Admin systems I support an Academic cluster here. I putJ all sorts of ported applications on to the Academic cluster, students can L write their own applications in BASIC, C, C++, COBOL, FORTRAN, PASCAL, PERL,D PYTHON etc  (the number who do is now much less than it was 5 years = ago - but thats the same on the Unix systems we run as well)./H The number of times this has caused problems in the last 10 years can be+ counted on the fingers of one hand if that. K This cluster supports 25000+ accounts. It provides the mail storage for allVK our students. It serves out the students personal web pages. It runs Oracle L databases etc. Hence it's important that this system is up and running 24x7.  y
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:42:10 +0000.2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>E Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most casesa3 Message-ID: <20020620124210.C3530@eisenschmidt.org>T  P Unless the Voices are Mistaken, Terry C. Shannon (terryshannon@attbi.com) Wrote: > > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3D113727.37B02A52@fsi.net...A > > r eclipse wrote: > > >5L > > > Do you know of any group that may be willing to buy out VMS os from HP > and L > > > try to revive and grow it themseleves? HP says it will support VMS but
 > my guess0 > > > is they may wanna dump it sooner or later. > > I > > I seriously doubt that between all of us we could raise the $4billion I > > (US) that some have estimated it would require. Personally, I've beena? > > looking in the Yellow Pages under both "angel" and "shark".s > J > Remember DEC sold Rdb to ORCL? The sale price was, I dunno, about $135M.* > Less than one year of Rdb gross revenue. > A > VMS gross revenue actually amounts to no more than 10 times thet > aforementioned $135M figute. > H > Still, raising a billion and a quarter bucks is easier said than done! >   = ::reaches into pocket:: Here Terry, he's my $10 contribution.    There is one other issue to consider too - unless you're buying OpenVMS to support it until it dies, it needs (certified) hardware to run on. If not for the Alpha itself, then it still needs to be ported to Itanium. As discussed here in detail, it's unlikely OpenVMS will boot on an off the shelf Best Buy Itanium system running welfare commodity parts. One thing that makes it such a reliable OS is that the hardware it has to run on is constrained to (comparatively) a handful of systems. Someone needs to conv ince a vendor to build you those systems based on a reference platform, not just crank out Proliants that overheat because they have the wrong thermal compound on the heatsink (and other assorted horror stories in my head).   3So if you still want to buy OpenVMS, and you have the pennies in your piggy bank to buy the OS, make sure you keep enough to hire the developers to continue to port it *AND* enough to bribe someone to build you hardware to run it on. Given enough years even eBay will run out of VAXen and Alphas to sell us.    -- t/ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>h6  Homepage URL    | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisenM  GPG Public Key  | http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/jeisenschmidt.asctD  GPG Fingerprint | 5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 07:56:53 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)GE Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases 3 Message-ID: <oP0s5Nf1ZBiU@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <20020620124210.C3530@eisenschmidt.org>, John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> writes:   > There is one other issue to consider too - unless you're buying OpenVMS to support it until it dies, it needs (certified) hardware to run on. If not for the Alpha itself, then it still needs to be ported to Itanium. As discussed here in detail, it's unlikely OpenVMS will boot on an off the shelf Best Buy Itanium system running welfare commodity parts. One thing that makes it such a reliable OS is that the hardware it has to run on is constrained to (comparatively) a handful of systems. Someone needs to co n> v > ince a vendor to build you those systems based on a reference platform, not just crank out Proliants that overheat because they have the wrong thermal compound on the heatsink (and other assorted horror stories in my head).   G I think it is highly likely Itanium/VMS _will_ boot on an off-the-shelft* Best Buy Itanium system (when both exist).  H I think HPQ believe it is unlikely the high-end customers they seek willH be willing to run on an unsupported hardware platform.  I think they are correct in their belief.  I I doubt that HPQ has a preference whether the low-end hardware revenue to-2 which they do not aspire goes to Best Buy or eBay.  5> So if you still want to buy OpenVMS, and you have the pennies in your piggy bank to buy the OS, make sure you keep enough to hire the developers to continue to port it *AND* enough to bribe someone to build you hardware to run it on. Given enough years even eBay will run out of VAXen and Alphas to sell us.u  I Considering that Compaq got Intel to bribe _them_ to port VMS to Itanium,nF I would say they are smarter than some in this group give them credit.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:57:21 GMT0* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>E Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases2B Message-ID: <l3mQ8.305714$%y.24895896@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:oP0s5Nf1ZBiU@eisner.encompasserve.org...4   ...p  I > I think it is highly likely Itanium/VMS _will_ boot on an off-the-shelff, > Best Buy Itanium system (when both exist).  D I suspect that John's point may have been more that this will not beJ particularly useful if the only device on that system that VMS supports is) the disk (due to lack of driver support).n   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:45:19 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>hE Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most casesmJ Message-ID: <zEnQ8.418664$t8_.381968@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D113727.37B02A52@fsi.net...g >hG > Too bad, though. Some bunch with a little business savvy and titanium-B > gonads could probably make Bill Gates wish he'd bought it first. >   I Who knows...maybe Bill WILL buy it ....WindowsVMS (tm) ....maybe somebodyo  ought to do a trademark search??   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:48:29 GMTx# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>sE Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most casesaG Message-ID: <xHnQ8.89259$831.9286@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>o  K Like I wrote Palmer at the time....taking Rdb as a standalone entity public.F probably could have been done at 3-5x revenues for probably 49% of theL company. Digital would have still had a controlling interest and the companyH would have had sufficient funds to port/adapt the product to everything.        < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:DTbQ8.262316$cQ3.11915@sccrnsc01... >.> > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message# > news:3D113727.37B02A52@fsi.net...e > > r eclipse wrote: > > >nL > > > Do you know of any group that may be willing to buy out VMS os from HP > and L > > > try to revive and grow it themseleves? HP says it will support VMS but
 > my guess0 > > > is they may wanna dump it sooner or later. > > I > > I seriously doubt that between all of us we could raise the $4billion I > > (US) that some have estimated it would require. Personally, I've beenr? > > looking in the Yellow Pages under both "angel" and "shark".  >lJ > Remember DEC sold Rdb to ORCL? The sale price was, I dunno, about $135M.* > Less than one year of Rdb gross revenue. >nA > VMS gross revenue actually amounts to no more than 10 times thep > aforementioned $135M figute. >dH > Still, raising a billion and a quarter bucks is easier said than done! >r >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 16:54:19 GMTl# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> E Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most casesiH Message-ID: <%MnQ8.89286$831.83165@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:oP0s5Nf1ZBiU@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > K > Considering that Compaq got Intel to bribe _them_ to port VMS to Itanium,wH > I would say they are smarter than some in this group give them credit.  G I think it's more like a trade in sports where a certain amount of cash D trades hands in addition to the bodies, and there are other 'future'B considerations - like Intel buying themselves an insurance policy.  K Capellas was motivated to sell to the first bid anyway, so I don't think hetL was so smart after all. He's a bit like those CEO's who go around buying hotK companies when they are pricey just to say that they are 'in the game' too.pH A year later when they sell those recently acquired companies off for 10< cents on the dollar, they are deemed 'non-strategic' assets.   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 10:33:42 -07001 From: keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris)iE Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most casesr< Message-ID: <cf15391e.0206200933.3301e08@posting.google.com>  g "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<DTbQ8.262316$cQ3.11915@sccrnsc01>... A > VMS gross revenue actually amounts to no more than 10 times thew > aforementioned $135M figute.  B This sounds way too low compared with the other figures we've beenF given.  VMS revenues certainly haven't dropped off by 2/3 since we gotF the $4B figure.  Maybe if this figure omits the $2B figure in ServicesC revenue alone for VMS, it could be within the realm of possibility.-: ----------------------------------------------------------: Keith Parris | parris <at> DECUServe <dot> decus <dot> org   ------------------------------    Date: 20 Jun 2002 10:57:36 -06002 From: newton_l@encompasserve.org (Lawrence Newton) Subject: XFC Status??n3 Message-ID: <mu06dLFoFWl9@eisner.encompasserve.org>@  E Is there any word on extended file cache (XFC) in VMS V7.3 or V7.3-1.t. The patch was still on hold earlier this week.  0 There was a rumor that said "it may never work".   Lawrence   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:14:36 -0400t1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>o Subject: Re: XFC Status??o2 Message-ID: <3D120D7C.DDF43A08@clarityconnect.com>  D That rumor is wrong!!  We should be seeing XFC at the time V7.3-1 is	 released.>   Lawrence Newton wrote: > G > Is there any word on extended file cache (XFC) in VMS V7.3 or V7.3-1.u0 > The patch was still on hold earlier this week. > 2 > There was a rumor that said "it may never work". > 
 > Lawrence   -- -C Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NYt0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan+ 	- Mark.Jilson@hp.com				- since 1975 or so  	- http://www.jilly.baka.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:16:18 -040071 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>> Subject: Re: XFC Status?? 2 Message-ID: <3D120DE2.89F9C954@clarityconnect.com>  D That rumor is wrong!!  We should be seeing XFC at the time V7.3-1 is	 released.    Lawrence Newton wrote: > G > Is there any word on extended file cache (XFC) in VMS V7.3 or V7.3-1.p0 > The patch was still on hold earlier this week. > 2 > There was a rumor that said "it may never work". > 
 > Lawrence   -- iC Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NYa0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan+ 	- Mark.Jilson@hp.com				- since 1975 or so  	- http://www.jilly.baka.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:07:11 GMTo1 From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie)a+ Subject: Re: [OT] Why Software is So Bad...n= Message-ID: <zafQ8.214721$9F5.15559113@typhoon.austin.rr.com>    system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:G : Lawyers are sleazy, immoral, cantankerous vermon but they are not, in G : general terms, intelligent enough to understand the software businessqF : and the issues of shoddy software to bring such a suit to a meaning- : ful conclusion.  g  D Here's one who's quite capable of understanding the issues of shoddy	 software:g  %   http://www.patents.com/oppedahl.htmi:   Carl Oppedahl, founding partner of Oppedahl & Larson LLP  -                                "Carl OppedahlW  H    [photograph of Carl Oppedahl] Carl Oppedahl is technically trained in=    physics, electrical engineering, mathematics, and softwareWH    engineering, having earned a bachelor's degree with a double major inH    physics with honors and mathematics with honors from Grinnell CollegeA    in 1978 and a law degree in 1981 from Harvard Law School. Upon3D    graduation from Grinnell College he was co-awarded the Linn SmithE    Prize for Excellence in Mathematics. He has written and prosecuteddC    numerous patent applications in electrical engineering, computeraB    software system, and mechanical areas. He is an active computer@    programmer and holds an Extra-class amateur radio license..."    4 He used to be active in telecomm-related newsgroups.  H --Jerry Leslie   leslie@clio.rice.edu  (my opinions are strictly my own)9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for emailt   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jun 2002 13:00:06 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) + Subject: Re: [OT] Why Software is So Bad...c, Message-ID: <aesjkm$1g7q$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <r3Qg6Z2c$0tj@eisner.encompasserve.org>,a0  Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:b |> In article <aeqjsb$gnn$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:= |> > In article <3d10bb69.925162212@proxy.news.easynews.com>,T8 |> >  prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski) writes: |> > |>  |> > |> F |> > |> The engineering technology exists to produce reliable softwareK |> > |> systems.  But it's so expensive and tedious to apply that it's only G |> > |> used on critical projects such as the control computers for thee |> > |> Space Shuttle. |> > u |> > Your joking, right??s |> s7 |> http://www.fastcompany.com/online/06/writestuff.html     D Thank you.  That's a keeper.  Now, if I can just get the SE students to read it!!   bill   -- eJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   w   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:50:25 GMTs0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)+ Subject: Re: [OT] Why Software is So Bad...m9 Message-ID: <3d11ebc2.1003075205@proxy.news.easynews.com>   < On 19 Jun 2002 18:51:55 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:  9 >In article <3d10bb69.925162212@proxy.news.easynews.com>,s4 > prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski) writes: >|>  >|> B >|> The engineering technology exists to produce reliable softwareG >|> systems.  But it's so expensive and tedious to apply that it's only C >|> used on critical projects such as the control computers for the? >|> Space Shuttle. >s >Your joking, right??>   No, I'm completely serious.o  > >Did you forget what one of the astronauts (John Glenn) had to  >say about "the lowest bidder"??  B Did YOU forget what the Challenger Commission, and Richard FeynmanE in particular, had to say about the quality of the engineering on the B Space Shuttle software?  Just to refresh your memory, he said thatB the project management and engineering on the shuttle was an utterA debacle, EXCEPT for the software for the command computers, wheref8 best engineering practices had been followed impeccably.  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.l   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:53:25 GMTi0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)+ Subject: Re: [OT] Why Software is So Bad...I9 Message-ID: <3d11ec77.1003256526@proxy.news.easynews.com>l  @ On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 19:21:44 GMT, system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  G >>that'll be heard by a comuter-savvy judge who will rule that whateverlF >>the license agreement might say, standard consumer product liability@ >>law applies to computer software.  The result won't be pretty. > E >Ne'er happen.  Judges tyically aren't bright enough to know the dif-sE >ference between a computer and a toaster over.  Most don't appear toVC >have the common sense to wear under-garments beneath their frocks.s  < To the contrary.  Once the second generation who've grown up8 with computers get appointed as judges, it's inevitable.  > But before it gets into the courtroom, the mainstream press isA going to start going after the software industry, in much the wayd9 they went after the automobile industry in the 1970s over 7 planned obsolescence and safety and reliability issues.0  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.s   ------------------------------   Date: 20 Jun 2002 15:46:19 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)i+ Subject: Re: [OT] Why Software is So Bad...A, Message-ID: <aestcb$1kl0$3@info.cs.uofs.edu>  9 In article <3d11ebc2.1003075205@proxy.news.easynews.com>, 3  prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski) writes:i? |> On 19 Jun 2002 18:51:55 GMT, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill  |> Gunshannon) wrote:i |> n< |> >In article <3d10bb69.925162212@proxy.news.easynews.com>,7 |> > prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski) writes:  |> >|>   |> >|> rE |> >|> The engineering technology exists to produce reliable softwareoJ |> >|> systems.  But it's so expensive and tedious to apply that it's onlyF |> >|> used on critical projects such as the control computers for the |> >|> Space Shuttle.u |> > |> >Your joking, right?? |>   |> No, I'm completely serious. |> gA |> >Did you forget what one of the astronauts (John Glenn) had tos# |> >say about "the lowest bidder"??p |> :E |> Did YOU forget what the Challenger Commission, and Richard Feynman H |> in particular, had to say about the quality of the engineering on theE |> Space Shuttle software?  Just to refresh your memory, he said thateE |> the project management and engineering on the shuttle was an utteriD |> debacle, EXCEPT for the software for the command computers, where; |> best engineering practices had been followed impeccably.  |> a  @ It was a joke, honest.  Unless you think Glenn was serious, too.  @ (The page where I found that claimed that all the astronauts and> many NASA employees passed this same joke around at the time.)   bill   -- kJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   e   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.340 ************************