1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 24 Jun 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 345       Contents:@ Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it"@ Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it" Re: Alphaserver 300 problem 9 Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions! 9 Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!  Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers Re: Case sensitive identifiers, CNET changed Itanium/Sun Cherrystone articleP Re: Comments on someone's broken news client (was: Re: My conversation with Linu Re: Could linux become VMS?  Re: DCPS and HP4100  Re: DCPS and HP4100  Re: DCPS and HP4100 ( Euro symbol, DECterm, Hummingbird Exceed GNV UNIX vs. POSIX VMS, Re: Hackers on the war path againset Apache!+ Re: howto create self-extracting zip files? ? Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same? ? Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same?  Re: New VMS Marketing  Re: New VMS Marketing  Re: New VMS Marketing  RE: New VMS Marketing  RE: New VMS Marketing  Re: New VMS Marketing  Re: New VMS Marketing  Re: New VMS Marketing  RE: New VMS Marketing  RE: New VMS Marketing  Re: New VMS Marketing  Re: New VMS Marketing  Re: New VMS Marketing  Re: New VMS Marketing  Re: New VMS Marketing  Re: New VMS Marketing  Re: Recent version of GNU GCC?3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III 3 Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III  Re: size of exe  Re: size of exe ! Re: Sun/Slowaris future in doubt! ! Re: Sun/Slowaris future in doubt! + Re: TCPIP (and other) PAKa for Hobbyist kit ' TCPIP (and other) PAKa for Hobbyist kit ; Re: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing ; Re: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing ; Re: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing ; RE: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing ; Re: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing  Trouble with Samba 2.0.3 Re: unix history< Re: US-NC Spanish Cobol VAX/VMS ACMS FMS Mailbox Programmer/C Re: US-NC Spanish Cobol VAX/VMS ACMS FMS Mailbox Programmer/Analyst / Re: Using old Bookreader files with Windows BNU $ Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd...$ Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd...$ Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd...$ Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd...$ Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd...? Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A ? Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A H Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A Proposal WASD startup problems  Re: WASD startup problems  Re: WASD startup problems , Re: What kind of morons work at the FDA now?< Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases< Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases Re: xml and all that Re: xml and all that  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:07:45 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>I Subject: Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it" ) Message-ID: <3D16FD81.FF01A182@127.0.0.1>    "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > 4 > Jan C. Vorbrggen <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote:& > > Charon-VAX will be their friend... > G > While it talk to Q-Bus widgets?  My guess is they've got some special B > purpose boards in those VAXen to interface with their equipment.  = I believe there is a PCI to QBUS 'controller' to permit this.   ) Someone care to back me up / correct me ?    oh, it's here...  . http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/index.htm  ! Third paragraph of description...  --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciences  nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2002 00:34:32 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>I Subject: Re: "We stay with VMS because we have forgotten that we have it" + Message-ID: <af0gmo0i7h@enews4.newsguy.com>   2 Jan C. Vorbrggen <jvorbrueggen@mediasec.de> wrote:$ > Charon-VAX will be their friend...  E While it talk to Q-Bus widgets?  My guess is they've got some special @ purpose boards in those VAXen to interface with their equipment.   			Zane    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 00:16:39 GMT $ From: guppy <guppy99remuv@flash.net>$ Subject: Re: Alphaserver 300 problem( Message-ID: <3D1664EE.7000100@flash.net>  < You might try hanging around the Memory/FPM section of EBay.G I bought a couple of 16mb parity simms for a total of $9.50 last week,  F plus 5 bucks shipping.  They worked fine in my homemade Alfer, a 4/166G that would run circles around Big Blue if cpu heat output was directly  $ proportional to computing power.  :)   William Barnett-Lewis wrote:   > William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > H >>Last week I picked up an Alphaserver 300. 192mb/2x1gb/cd/mach64 video. >> > (snip) > H > As a way of getting this into google for the next person, in this caseH > the fault turned out to be mismatched SIMMs in the 128 mb kit that wasH > installed in Bank 0. 2 8mbx36 SIMMs and 2 8x33mb SIMMS were installed.J > This prevented the post from completing while also preventing any memoryJ > error messages from being given. Once the 64mb kit was swapped from Bank& > 1 to Bank 0, everything worked fine.9 >                                                         F > So does anyone have 2 8mbx36 72 pin 70 ns SIMMs they'd care to sell? >  > 	 > William  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:48:29 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> B Subject: Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!G Message-ID: <NXIR8.8821$71t1.2528@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message8 news:ps1R8.114539$R61.39078@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...G > > Customer perception is managed, in large measure, through marketing K > > (which, yes, does include advertising). So long as HPQ remains reticent . > > in this regard, VMS's fate remains sealed. > G > Agreed. But I've been saying this for ten years now. Tin Ear syndrome   > remains rampant at the New HP. > ; > We'll have to see what Bob Blatz does in the VMS space...     L I suspect that HPQ, like Compaq before them operates marketing much the same2 as the Vince Lombardi Principle regarding passing:I "There are three things that can happen when you put the ball in the air,  and two of them are bad."   ) a) HP can do nothing about VMS and crash.  b) HP can market VMS and crash. ! c) HP can market VMS and succeed.   G Any bets as to which two courses of action they will make an effort at?  Which is more expensive to HP?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:48:34 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> B Subject: Re: Call or email hp ... they will answer your questions!G Message-ID: <SXIR8.8827$71t1.4805@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message < news:fNaR8.350810$Gs.27299005@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... >  > K > No.  But I suspect Carly would consider it a very bad thing indeed, which  > was my point.   K Anything but moving forward when you've "burned your bridges behind you" is $ bound to be viewed as a 'bad thing'.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 01:23:06 +0200 ' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> ' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifiers ( Message-ID: <3D16585A.1DAF26AF@spam.not>  	 AG wrote:  > 6 > "Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message$ > news:3D158AF9.6CFB605A@spam.not...  = > > I won't repeat my arguments in favour of case-sensitivity < > > in certain circumstances. But I don't think your example; > > is a good reason against because typing errors can have < > > much worse effects. If someone uses mixed-case naming in> > > a case-sensitive environment attention has to be payed to = > > using mixed-case names. If someone isn't capable of doing 6 > > it right sHe should refrain from using mixed-case. > < > I beg your pardon? The whole point was that you can't. Not> > in a case-sensitive environment. How would a poor user guess@ > that I've decided to call something "MySillYroutine" simply by> > hiting shift key too early? And you can't refrain from using3 > case-sensitivity on the systems it's enforced on.   = Well, I think that those users need some sort of training ... ; They need training that teaches them once and for all that  8 labeling things "Windows" and "windows" is not the same.  4 I don't see a difference between typing errors like 3 "Windows" vs "windows" and "center" vs "centre" ;-)   ( What do you think about phonetic naming?  
 > > But it; > > is not a good decision to restrict the people that can.  > G > Well, no one's talking about restricting the mixed-case use (I hope). K > However, compilers and other tools should be totally indifferent to that.   F Some natural languages, brand names in a lot of natural languages and D a lot of P.L.s are case-sensitive. Therefore it is quite convenient A for those that are used to mixed-case and case-sensitivity to be   able to use it.   = The tools should reflect case-sensitivity where appropriate,  5 i.e. for file names when needed but not for commands.     A > If you insist otherwise, we could go to a much more interesting  > possibilities:J > If capitalization is ok, why not font? And why not colour? And would youD > demand that compilers accept hand-written script and recognize theD > differences in hand-written identifier names? You know, there are E > way more differences in a hand-written version than just capitals:)   A I don't think that this is a good idea/example as people are not  ? used to interprete font and colour in a semantical way whereas  ; rules exist that make uppercase and lowercase letters work  @ together in a certain way. You are required to start a sentence A with an uppercase letter if the first component of your sentence  B is a word. You are required to write most words in a heading with ? the first character of each word in uppercase. None such rules   exist for font and colour.   --  ? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL,  @ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2002 01:06:46 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifiers 0 Message-ID: <87sn3dj55l.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  3 "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:   F > Gag bumper sticker, actually seen in the Chicago area and elsewhere:   ( > "Illiterate? Write now for free help."  - Or the one that I think still takes the cake.   > "DO NOT OPEN UNTIL YOU HAVE READ ENCLOSED SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS"  B In 2" high red letters... And yes, if you misshandled it, it would	 kill you.    --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 19:25:21 +1200  From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz> ' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifiers . Message-ID: <7OzR8.59$zt.4964@news.xtra.co.nz>  4 "Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message" news:3D16C0FB.13CDA2FB@spam.not... > AG wrote:  > > 8 > > "Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message& > > news:3D16585A.1DAF26AF@spam.not...F > > > I don't think that this is a good idea/example as people are not< > > > used to interprete font and colour in a semantical way > > ? > > Well, yes they do. Why else would street lights be coloured  red/yellow/green? F > > And warning signs done in bright red? So, just an idea - let's use normal letteringJ > > for normal identifiers but define a language where exception names are
 identifiedL > > by the fact that they are in red. And the ones in green are constants ;) > E > As with syntax highlighting (colouring would be the better wording) D > editors there is nothing wrong with using colour as supporting aid > in understanding.   L No, sorry. What I meant was using the colour not as an aid but as a semanticH property which would differentiate between, say, variables and constants (similarL to what C-types do with capitals for constants :) [And yes, I know it's just	 a custom, = not the language requirement, but the idea would be the same]   . > But as with most editors there is so far notA > generally agreed mapping for colours and users can deliberately < > configure their editors to assign the colours they prefer.  : Excellent point! And why not the same with capitalization?   > 9 > Balancing the arguments so far I don't see any point in 6 > preventing mixed-case file names or case-insensitive > file name handling.   5 Sorry? Guess I've lost you there a bit - surely, case < insensitive handling couldn't care less about the mixed-case names?    F > > Sorry to disappoint you but they do exist (that may depend on your localityF > > though). Try telling  a fire-safety inspector that it's OK to have "exit"H > > signs in a building done in light blue and written in a sort of 18th century  > > script.  > = > I think your argument doesn't count because of two reasons.  > @ > First you deliberately bring in specialised areas that are far= > beyond standard orthography as tought at school and as most  > people know.  < So is the programming. Or would you imply that most computerL languages around confirm to the "standard orthography as tought at school "? Or even aim to?    > < > Second these rules are orthogonal to the other attributes,: > don't change the meaning in a grammatical sense (whereas( > uppercase does in case of brand names)  C Well, that's names, and that's why brand names are usually followed @ by the (TM) sign or equivalent - partly because the name-holdersD know better than to rely on the case only - some explicit marking is	 required.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 01:39:38 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifiers & Message-ID: <3D167C45.AA393B8@fsi.net>   Paul Repacholi wrote:  > 5 > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > H > > Gag bumper sticker, actually seen in the Chicago area and elsewhere: > * > > "Illiterate? Write now for free help." > / > Or the one that I think still takes the cake.  > @ > "DO NOT OPEN UNTIL YOU HAVE READ ENCLOSED SAFETY INSTRUCTIONS" > D > In 2" high red letters... And yes, if you misshandled it, it would > kill you.   A That sounds like a go-round I had with someone by e-mailduring my D earliest experience with NetBSD. He suggested - repeatedly - that toF sllev my problems, I should read he man pages, but of course to unpackG and read the man pages you had to install NetBSD, but to install NetBSD $ you had to read the man page, but to  ' %EXEC-F-INFLOOP, infinite loop detected ? %RQP-E-EXECERR, Executive reported an error - request abandoned    --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/y   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:04:23 +1200  From: "AG" <ang@xtra.co.nz>t' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifiers . Message-ID: <LRwR8.16$zt.1475@news.xtra.co.nz>  ; "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagee6 news:b096a4ee.0206231929.642f46a@posting.google.com...> > bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in message( news:<aesvar$1lfi$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>...0 > > In article <aesqmh011ju@enews3.newsguy.com>,3 > >  "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:   I > > Of course in the spoken it is context-sensitivity.  Which is the sameiL > > way I can tell the meaining in my sentence above. But in writting, usingI > > wrong capitalization (in English as well as German and I am sure mostlI > > other languages) is just as wrong as using the wrong word.  I am surea >H >0	 > Really?m >,E > 1. I went too the market.  ! Wrong word, meaning can be determined.eG > 2. I went chair the market. ! Wrong word, but is much more confusing.   D Worse than that, the #2 above is also open to wrong interpretations:B What about: "I went TO chair the market"?  Was it a case of a wordF misspelled or a word missed? Who knows, but it would be a bit too hard< to argue that the same in all capitals is somehow different.  G > > Trying to put this back on topic, nothing in Unix forces the use ofEG > > mixed-case for things like filenames.  They can all be in one case.   @ Ah, but that doesn't mean that "nothing in Unix forces the use".L Just the simple fact that there *is* a difference means that it is enforced.H How do I know that you decided to name all the files in capitals? Or howD do you know that my convention is to capitalize every second letter?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:49:31 +0200m' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>e' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifierse( Message-ID: <3D16C0FB.13CDA2FB@spam.not>  	 AG wrote:  > 6 > "Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message$ > news:3D16585A.1DAF26AF@spam.not...
 > > AG wrote:r > E > > > If you insist otherwise, we could go to a much more interestingl > > > possibilities:N > > > If capitalization is ok, why not font? And why not colour? And would youH > > > demand that compilers accept hand-written script and recognize theG > > > differences in hand-written identifier names? You know, there are I > > > way more differences in a hand-written version than just capitals:)  > > D > > I don't think that this is a good idea/example as people are not: > > used to interprete font and colour in a semantical way > O > Well, yes they do. Why else would street lights be coloured red/yellow/green? U > And warning signs done in bright red? So, just an idea - let's use normal letteringnS > for normal identifiers but define a language where exception names are identifiedaJ > by the fact that they are in red. And the ones in green are constants ;)  D As with syntax highlighting (colouring would be the better wording) C editors there is nothing wrong with using colour as supporting aid S? in understanding. But as with most editors there is so far not w@ generally agreed mapping for colours and users can deliberately : configure their editors to assign the colours they prefer.   > > whereasa> > > rules exist that make uppercase and lowercase letters workC > > together in a certain way. You are required to start a sentenceeD > > with an uppercase letter if the first component of your sentence > > is a word. > D > True and I would freely admit it's a good style to do that but ... > > > iF i TYpE it LiKe THAT, doES It ReaLLy CHaNgE wHAt iT MeANs? > E > Of, course, this sort of thing is a nuisance and so on, but does ithK > change the meaning of the sentence? If not, why should it in programming?c  > I think your question is a good one but beyond our discussion.F I presented a number of arguments for mixed-case and case-sensitivity D and I won't repeat them now. The fact that these concepts exist and D are useful for a number of people that cannot be neglected stops us  to restrict its use.  > Generally spoken this possibility is of course a trade off as > always if you have to decide between more power and more risk = on one side and less power and more safety on the other side.   8 Balancing the arguments so far I don't see any point in 5 preventing mixed-case file names or case-insensitive  ; file name handling. As with natural language and with your n: examples the average user handles uppercase and lowercase . pretty well by not wRiTiNg although sHe could.  : > > You are required to write most words in a heading withB > > the first character of each word in uppercase. None such rules > > exist for font and colour. > M > Sorry to disappoint you but they do exist (that may depend on your localityeK > though). Try telling  a fire-safety inspector that it's OK to have "exit" N > signs in a building done in light blue and written in a sort of 18th century	 > script.e  ; I think your argument doesn't count because of two reasons.t  ? First you deliberately bring in specialised areas that are far s< beyond standard orthography as tought at school and as most  people know.  ; Second these rules are orthogonal to the other attributes,  9 don't change the meaning in a grammatical sense (whereas p; uppercase does in case of brand names) and they only serve >* for letting the signs quickly be detected.  ; While you *could* invent those rules (as you stated above) r6 the fact is that they don't exist except for the case 9 attribute. That's why we're talking about that attribute.r   -- l? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, l@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:32:23 +0200n' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>m' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifierss( Message-ID: <3D171157.FB83D39C@spam.not>  	 AG wrote:M > 6 > "Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message  G > > As with syntax highlighting (colouring would be the better wording) F > > editors there is nothing wrong with using colour as supporting aid > > in understanding.  > N > No, sorry. What I meant was using the colour not as an aid but as a semanticS > property which would differentiate between, say, variables and constants (similar X > to what C-types do with capitals for constants :) [And yes, I know it's just a custom,? > not the language requirement, but the idea would be the same]D  4 Sorry, I didn't read your proposal carefully enough.  = I don't mind introducing that concept. As others pointed out s< with some Algol-X a similar idea was introduced by printing = the key words in bold face and distinguishing between a bold  ; face "begin" and plain "begin" which could then be used as n identifier (name).  2 But I don't see very clearly how this (good) idea 3 supports your point as this concept isn't used yet.r  0 > > But as with most editors there is so far notC > > generally agreed mapping for colours and users can deliberately.> > > configure their editors to assign the colours they prefer. > < > Excellent point! And why not the same with capitalization?  > As I said: mere convention, lack of training etc.. Most users : would use one mapping but not necessarily all users would  agree upon one.S  ; > > Balancing the arguments so far I don't see any point int8 > > preventing mixed-case file names or case-insensitive > > file name handling.e > 7 > Sorry? Guess I've lost you there a bit - surely, case-> > insensitive handling couldn't care less about the mixed-case > names?  ) *preventing* mixed-case file names and/orl7 *preventing* case-insensitive file name handling, i.e. I) having case-sensitive file name handling..  4 MacOS e.g. handles files names case-insensitive but 3 stores them in mixed-case to retain the case which r was chosen.w  Q > > > Sorry to disappoint you but they do exist (that may depend on your localitydO > > > though). Try telling  a fire-safety inspector that it's OK to have "exit"rR > > > signs in a building done in light blue and written in a sort of 18th century
 > > > script.  > > ? > > I think your argument doesn't count because of two reasons.p > >tB > > First you deliberately bring in specialised areas that are far? > > beyond standard orthography as tought at school and as most@ > > people know. > > > So is the programming. Or would you imply that most computerN > languages around confirm to the "standard orthography as tought at school "? > Or even aim to?e  ; I'm not very happy that you switch to P.L.s now. I thought h= we are analysing the pros and cons of a file system handling   names case-sensitive.e  = But for both areas my impression is that good P.L. designers n7 and good man machine interface designers revert to the e7 experiences users probably have. For certain P.L.s the p9 conventions of mathematical notations are more important -: than history and experience with written natural language.    > > > Second these rules are orthogonal to the other attributes,< > > don't change the meaning in a grammatical sense (whereas* > > uppercase does in case of brand names) > E > Well, that's names, and that's why brand names are usually followedeB > by the (TM) sign or equivalent - partly because the name-holdersF > know better than to rely on the case only - some explicit marking is > required.   > To cover the problem with case-sensitive brand names we could @ in deed require to use an addition like (TM) or . OTOH I think D from an aesthetical point of view this is the second best solution. C Moreover it is not very natural as upper and lower case characters eA are available *and* there are languages where the users are much t, aware of case issues than native English ;-)  ? To bring this back to the technical relevance: I would like to T= have the ability to set the behaviour per directory (or even x< per filename) like it is possible to set the max. number of  version.  ? I also regard the concept of treating commands like file names e? as a severe design flaw. Even VMS could have gone a little bit s9 further in requiring some installation process for every :? command a user might be able to execute. While I could imagine d@ that some people might even like to have case-sensitive command ? names I don't see this as very helpful and would at least like o: to have the possibility to switch this off and in case of > case-sensitiv command names some assistance if commands exist   that are only different by case.   -- d? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, e@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencef   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2002 13:22:25 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)i' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifiers + Message-ID: <af76eh$euq$5@info.cs.uofs.edu>a  - In article <22JUN200202572615@gerg.tamu.edu>,X*  carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) writes: |>E |> Sooner or later computer users will use voice control on a regular % |> basis (some do now, but not many).s  D Actually, you could write BASIC programs on the TRS-80 Model I usingA voice in the late 70's.  Didn't go very far in the past 25 years.CC I have a voice interface to my Word Processor software.  It's cute,eB but not particularly functional.  Takes a long time to program andC can't understand me anymore if I have a cold.  [I always got a good C chuckle out of the IBM voice recognition commercials.  Try this onen@ sometime: "Mr. Wright sat on the right when he was told to writeD about the right rite."  And we won't even go into automatic language
 translation.]   > And of course, how can we forget that back in the 50's we were> assured by many writers that we would all have domestic robotsB by now.  And that paragon of technology "Popular Science" promised> me that by now I would be commuting to work in my own personal; GyroCopter instead of sitting in traffic jams on the hiway.y  @ "Sooner or later" usually means much later and often never.  And@ no, I don;t believe what I see on StarTrek is the science of the future.v   |> iH |> What will you do with your case sensitive file names then? IndicatingG |> which one of the conflicting case versions you actually want will be B |> a pain in the posterior regions. Likewise for the case specific2 |> qualifiers on unix commands, "-R" vs. "-r" etc.  B Which explains why this is not a practical interface for this kind5 of work and thus is much less likely to be developed.l   bill@ [Who had many a laugh at the output of VoicePROFS and could only/ imagine what voice input would have been like.]e   -- gJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   x   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2002 13:25:46 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)g' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifiersW+ Message-ID: <af76kq$euq$6@info.cs.uofs.edu>d  ' In article <3D147D63.8B9B5327@fsi.net>,f4  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes: |>G |> Just to complicate matters, "Kraft" is a proper name - a family that K |> started a food manufacturing business. "Craft" can be either a noun or ae7 |> verb, but I've never heard it used as a preposition.e  G "Craft" is also a proper name.  And the "kraft" (not "craft") mentioned F previously wasn't in english, but then, I don't know the prepositional use of that work either.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:35:06 -0400x, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com>' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifierso, Message-ID: <af0rf5017u4@enews4.newsguy.com>  4 "Brass Christof" <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message" news:3D1349A0.81BD87FB@spam.not... > If file namesn2 > got the wrong case they could renamed after all.  H Not if the file name was hard-coded in some application.  Or if it was aE file shared among a large group of users (who would then each have to K incorporate the change into their processes -- not a very friendly thing toi do), such as a database file.     C > While I don't see how UNIX would accomplish storing the names allo- > uppercase but displaying them in mixed casen  @ Windows/DOS can do it, so how difficult can it possibly be?  :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:31:16 +0200u' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>i' Subject: Re: Case sensitive identifiers ( Message-ID: <3D140BA4.C7558F2C@spam.not>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: > Y > Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> wrote in message news:<3D1194EF.1802F085@spam.not>...v  8 > > There are natural languages that are case sensitive. > >t8 > > IOW there is a difference between "Kraft" (noun) and= > > "kraft" (preposition). While I agree that it is a pain top > D > Here it is the meaning that determines the case, not the other wayE > around. What about the first word in a sentence? It is capitalized,". > but that has nothing to do with its meaning. >  > (Just a side point.)  7 I'm not quite sure whether I understand you correctly. 2: I would probably agree if you had stated that grammatical 9 function determined the case, but meaning? I don't agree.s  : Also I don't agree with the order in which things happen. : If you read a sentence you will first detect the case and ; in some cases where case matters (in those languages where m= it matters) you will know the meaning depending on the case.  9 If you read about Windows you immediately understand the t6 product even in an English sentence because names are  meant to be uppercase.  2 Of course the convention of having the first word . of a sentence uppercase doesn't tell you much.   -- e? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, -@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2002 11:08:15 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young).5 Subject: CNET changed Itanium/Sun Cherrystone articlen3 Message-ID: <iSc5OJdYzh34@eisner.encompasserve.org>   E 	CNET may have been able to play games in the old days, unfortunatelyp 	Google is very punishing ;-)   ! 	Here, before they clean this up:x  @ http://asia.cnet.com/newstech/systems/0,39001153,39048506,00.htm  H A four-processor Itanium 2 system will cost about US$41,000 with 32GB ofK memory, said Vaughn Mackie, enterprise platform marketing manager at Intel, " speaking at a media event Friday.     - 	And even if they do... Google has it cached:    http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:qJOma1V94lQC:asia.cnet.com/newstech/systems/0,39001153,39048506,00.htm+vaughn+itanium+sun+mackie&hl=en&ie=UTF-8    F 	Brings up a point... without posting it as a "correction" - something@ 	a real publication does, they change reality on the fly withoutE 	letting an unsuspecting public know any different.  Worst part aboutlA 	it?  It was attributed as a quote.  Anybody ever been misquoted?t@ 	Thought so.  Maybe he misheard 32 Gbytes when he really said 8.   				Robn   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:38:50 +0200h' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>mY Subject: Re: Comments on someone's broken news client (was: Re: My conversation with Linuc( Message-ID: <3D140D6A.4441F8F4@spam.not>   Mark Berryman wrote:  H > The protocol is fine, it is the implementation that is broken.  HavingH > read the RFC and implemented code according to it, I can tell you thatH > anyone who gets the "doubled period" part of the description wrong hasF > difficulty reading simple english.  It is very well described in the                             ^ #                      Or writing ;-)    -- w? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, m@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequencet   ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2002 04:58:26 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)e$ Subject: Re: Could linux become VMS?5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-eBKLmukdokDS@localhost>g  1 On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:18:59 UTC, Phillip Helbig p+ <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:   9 > > > |> OTOH, case-sensitive file-naming is a Unix crock  > > >l > > > Matter of opinion. > > P > > Not any more than most facts.  The only people who seem to appreciate it areG > > Unix bigots (quite similar, in fact, to the situation with VMS file M > > versioning); the rest of the world (including a significant proportion ofwO > > the Unix base) recognizes it for what it is:  an unfortunate remnant of thesO > > original non-design that would be difficult to correct after all this time.t > D > I think I remember reading somewhere that tabs in makefiles are a K > similar remnant.  IIRC, it was not even an intended feature at the time, hI > but just an oversight, but the developer didn't want to correct it due sJ > to backward compatibility---he already had 5(!) users of the utility at  > the time!   2 Hm! Maybe he should have written FixMake or Fm or & UpgradeMyOldMakeFile_toNew instead :-)   -- u Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:05:13 +0200  From: "toto" <toto@toto.fr>  Subject: Re: DCPS and HP4100% Message-ID: <af59kt$5s2$1@wanadoo.fr>s   Thanks Hans,  L Do you know where DCPS 2.1 is available for downloading . I tried to find it" on Genicom's site with no success.   Eric          H "Aus, Hans Magnus" <aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de> a crit dans le message de= news: aus-62B46C.04421322062002@wrzx08.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de...n1 > The HP4100 is supported starting with DCPS 2.1.e >g >tD > In article <aeuuko$2vm$1@wanadoo.fr>, "toto" <toto@toto.fr> wrote: >s > > Hi,e > >aK > > I try to select input tray like i did with the HP4000 but on the HP4100n thesL > > Input_tray=tray_1 or tray_2 is not recognized but DCPS V1.8 and i get an > > error message "e$ > > no tray_1 ... tray on HPlaser" . > >n
 > > Thanks > >n > > Eric > >n > >a >i > --6 > Hans Magnus Aus, Wuerzburg, aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:25:20 +0200o From: "toto" <toto@toto.fr>  Subject: Re: DCPS and HP4100% Message-ID: <af6hg3$lqs$1@wanadoo.fr>e   I didn't know that.cC DCPS V2.0 is still available for downloading at Genicom's Ftp site.d   Eric      L "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> a crit dans le message de news: 3D167CD1.3EB88EC4@fsi.net...
 > toto wrote:" > >  > > Thanks Hans, > > H > > Do you know where DCPS 2.1 is available for downloading . I tried to find itr& > > on Genicom's site with no success. >oE > Genicom returned DCPS to OpenVMS Engineering a couple of years ago.s >e > -- > David J. Dachteras > dba DJE Systemsn > http://www.djesys.com/ >e* > Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:! > http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/a   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 01:41:56 GMTa1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>u Subject: Re: DCPS and HP4100' Message-ID: <3D167CD1.3EB88EC4@fsi.net>e   toto wrote:  >  > Thanks Hans, > N > Do you know where DCPS 2.1 is available for downloading . I tried to find it$ > on Genicom's site with no success.  C Genicom returned DCPS to OpenVMS Engineering a couple of years ago.o   -- r David J. Dachterau dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:14:47 GMT 3 From: "Tom Wade" <t.wade@vms.eurokom.ie.removespam>:1 Subject: Euro symbol, DECterm, Hummingbird Exceed.. Message-ID: <rPFR8.10012$04.30949@news.iol.ie>  
 Greetings,  F Anyone had any luck getting euro symbol support going in the following
 environment ?   0 OpenVMS 7.3, DECWindows 1.2-6 (with Euro patch).  8 On PC (X server) Windows 2000, Hummingbird Exceed 7.1.1.  L DECterm windows display the euro character (A4) as a generic currency symbol (as per ISO-8859-1).      Many thanks for any suggestions.   Tom Wade# t.wade@vms.removeforspam.eurokom.ie    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2002 06:52:23 -0700% From: f.tirone@organoninc.com (Frank)h Subject: GNV UNIX vs. POSIX VMSr= Message-ID: <624d52b0.0206240552.284d7ab9@posting.google.com>d  E Has anyone evaluated GNV UNIX and POSIX VMS?  If so, which is better?iE (Functionality, support, performance, reliability)  I'm an Oracle DBAdD and am about to take over several databases that are on VMS. I wouldD like to write a generic RMAN backup script that covers UNIX, NT, andD VMS. We use Cygwin for NT. A UNIX here document has been the easiest
 to implement.    Thanks for your input,   Frank    ------------------------------   Date: 22 Jun 2002 04:28:15 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>5 Subject: Re: Hackers on the war path againset Apache!y+ Message-ID: <af0ucv0fek@enews3.newsguy.com>i  ) Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote:s> > like I said, the most popular software isn't always the best: > software ... with freeware, you get what you pay for ...  N Geez, get a new song Bob.  How many vendors would have a fix out already?  TheM patch for this has been out for at least a couple of days.  I normally get a r8 lot worse support than that for software that I pay for!   		Zane   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 22:00:24 GMTn, From: Wayne Morrison <Wayne.Morrison@hp.com>4 Subject: Re: howto create self-extracting zip files?& Message-ID: <3D139FC7.7EE3ED85@hp.com>   Nic Clews wrote: >  > Wayne Morrison wrote:a > >i > ...aF > > VAX.  It's primarily a matter of needing to choose where you spendK > > finite engineering resources.  Between the Itanium port and significant G > > new functionality (yes, mostly on Alpha), we're keeping rather busye > > here in OpenVMS.( >                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > J > Surely this is incorrect. It is both Alpha and Itanium as they share theH > code base, so this new functionality will also be on Itanium releases. >  > --A > Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesi > nclews at csc dot coml  I You are correct that this new functionality will be on Itanium as well asrM Alpha.  However, since iVMS isn't ready quite yet, the development (and first M availability) is still on Alpha today.  We're getting head start, though, viaiM cross-compilers, so once the core O/S is ready, the rest will quickly follow.n   	Wayne Morrisond 	CDSA Project Leader 	OpenVMS Security groupg   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2002 10:57:58 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)nH Subject: Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same?3 Message-ID: <dmSNGM1Xsi1l@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  o In article <zaNP8.274234$%y.23403941@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > : > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:MwCJ39LGqhkW@eisner.encompasserve.org...q >  > ...p > * >> Here is a prognostication.  I'm willingC >> to wager that Itanium servers have the highest price performance : >> metrics for 64-bit servers - until Hamster comes along. >>7 >> http://news.com.com/2100-1001-936936.html?tag=fd_top  >>L >> However, Sun's prices go up steeply. A four-processor server with 16GB ofL >> memory costs $46,995, and a four-processor model with 32GB of memory goes > ford >> $99,995.a >>	 >> [snip]h >>I >> A four-processor Itanium 2 system will cost about $41,000 with 32GB ofi	 > memory,hF >> said Vaughn Mackie, enterprise platform marketing manager at Intel,
 > speaking ate >> a media event Friday. > K > You must have read a different version of the article than the one I justh( > read using your URL above, which says: > H > "A four-processor Itanium 2 system will cost about $41,000 with 8GB ofM > memory, said Vaughn Mackie, enterprise platform marketing manager at Intel, $ > speaking at a media event Friday." > G > The difference between 32 GB and 8 GB for the $41K Itanic2 system (as M > contrasted with Sun's 16 GB for $47K) makes a significant difference in thet. > price/performance conclusion one might draw. >     K         I kid you not... I did not change a thing.  As you know, I normally.G         cut and paste.  At the time I cut and pasted that, it said whateJ         you see above.  The worst part about this... years ago this onlineI         rag went to a posting method that hides modifications.  Good luckeJ         trying to figure out the last time that URL was edited.  One thingH 	I am certain of, it was after I quoted it... after official publication( 	date/time of June 17, 2002, 9:00 PM PT.  #                                 Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:45:22 GMTr* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>H Subject: Re: Interesting ZDnet post about Tandem -- Can VMS do the same?B Message-ID: <C0IR8.370783$%y.28268817@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:dmSNGM1Xsi1l@eisner.encompasserve.org...tJ > In article <zaNP8.274234$%y.23403941@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill& Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > >a< > > "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message1 > > news:MwCJ39LGqhkW@eisner.encompasserve.org...e > >s > > ...i > >n, > >> Here is a prognostication.  I'm willingE > >> to wager that Itanium servers have the highest price performance < > >> metrics for 64-bit servers - until Hamster comes along. > >>9 > >> http://news.com.com/2100-1001-936936.html?tag=fd_toph > >>K > >> However, Sun's prices go up steeply. A four-processor server with 16GBl ofI > >> memory costs $46,995, and a four-processor model with 32GB of memorys goes > > forr
 > >> $99,995.t > >> > >> [snip]  > >>K > >> A four-processor Itanium 2 system will cost about $41,000 with 32GB of  > > memory,eH > >> said Vaughn Mackie, enterprise platform marketing manager at Intel, > > speaking ati > >> a media event Friday. > > H > > You must have read a different version of the article than the one I just* > > read using your URL above, which says: > >iJ > > "A four-processor Itanium 2 system will cost about $41,000 with 8GB ofH > > memory, said Vaughn Mackie, enterprise platform marketing manager at Intel,& > > speaking at a media event Friday." > >dI > > The difference between 32 GB and 8 GB for the $41K Itanic2 system (asyK > > contrasted with Sun's 16 GB for $47K) makes a significant difference in  the 0 > > price/performance conclusion one might draw. > >l >. >aD >         I kid you not... I did not change a thing.  As you know, I normallyI >         cut and paste.  At the time I cut and pasted that, it said what  >         you see above.  H That was a possibility I entertained while considering the wording of myI response.  However, it seems considerably more likely that the change waskL instituted to correct an error than to introduce one, so the conclusions one should draw are still the same..   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2002 01:10:39 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing0 Message-ID: <87ofe1j4z4.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  % "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:r  A > Ads in California that play on earthquakes - "OpenVMS gives you'0 > disaster tolerance over multiple fault lines".  : Or Tokyo, `Get VMS before your business goes up in smoke.' Be ready to duck though.   -- k< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.n@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:10:52 +01004( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing) Message-ID: <3D16FE3C.BAD679ED@127.0.0.1>f   John Smith wrote:h > D > Hey Ed - just a question - How did you find out about this 'tour'? >    John,m  9 You've not had an answer to this here yet, still waiting?u   How do people find out?e   -- e? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesr nclews at csc dot coms   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:08:49 GMTs# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>  Subject: Re: New VMS MarketingI Message-ID: <5mOQ8.429770$t8_.98553@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>-  B Hey Ed - just a question - How did you find out about this 'tour'?  K How much 'public' notice is there being given to this tour? ie. trade rags,i& newspapers, targeted mailings, etc....  J How many HP sales and marketing reps are going in to see *new* or existingE customers to say "You know that lousy Dell or IBM 'industry standard'aE hardware or Sun junk you're running, or that Proliant or Netserver oreI PA-Risc box we sold you last week...well it's all a bunch of cr*p runningtI Windoze/Linux/unix. Come to this presentation and we'll show you the REAL, stuff!"o  J Without all of this, attendance will be lousy and then HP can point to theH results of the tour and say "See, I told you so...why should we have VMS! presentations when nobody comes."I  L I hope that HP understands that they are going to have to do this regularly.K Too bad they didn't do a tour stop  at the SIA show in New York this month,IK but that's probably a bit too front-and-center for them. There'd be lots ofy very pointed questions.c  G Not also that the tour is scheduled entirely during the summer vacationmJ months, when key decision makers are more often on vacation.  Just another  good way to keep attendance low.  L Now HP may turn around internally and say "What the hell do all these peopleH in c.o.v.  want? (not that HP is doing this for our exclusive benefit or	 anything)s  I What HP should be doing (IMHO) is starting to do the creative advertisingeL work for VMS today, get all the collateral ready and start their advertisingJ with the trade and key general circulation papers next week, have a coupleJ TV spots ready for the baseball All-Star game, the US F1 race, and severalI golf tournaments, CNBC's Kudlow &Cramer, etc..... Do some sales calls anduC present marketing material and prime the pump for a Sept-Oct. tour.-   My $0.02      : "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in messageL news:92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C570@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us. ..J > HP has scheduled a presentation tour for OpenVMS in the US.  The tour isL > titled "to re-boot or not to re-boot   with OpenVMS there is no question."% > You can get details on the tour at: - > <http://www.showexhibit.com/hp_openvmstour>t >t > EdG > **Please apply a generous amount of all the usual disclaimers here.**s >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 07:51:49 -0500// From: "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com>n Subject: RE: New VMS MarketingT Message-ID: <92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C574@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us>  L The info on the tour was passed along to me from an HP VAR.  Sorry about theF delay in my response, but I didn't check my mail over the weekend.  If< everything goes as planned I should be at the Houston event.   EdE **Please apply a generous amount of all the usual disclaimers here.**-     > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Nic Clews [mailto:sendspamhere@127.0.0.1]e% > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 6:11 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn  > Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing >  >  > John Smith wrote:4 > > F > > Hey Ed - just a question - How did you find out about this 'tour'? > >  >  > John,  > ; > You've not had an answer to this here yet, still waiting?  >  > How do people find out?n >  > -- tA > Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesl > nclews at csc dot com. >    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2002 08:07:40 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)n Subject: RE: New VMS Marketing3 Message-ID: <3BGSn$XhlDrS@eisner.encompasserve.org>o   In article <92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C574@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us>, "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> writes:N > The info on the tour was passed along to me from an HP VAR.  Sorry about theD > delay in my response, but I didn't check my mail over the weekend.  , How can we trust you, if you have a life :-)   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2002 08:52:28 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing3 Message-ID: <aIWqp60e$Egz@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  [ In article <3D14B304.A5D61246@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:a  F > Hhmmm... Maybe his family once ran a state-side brewery. Does anyone! > besides me remember Blatz Beer?e  D    Yes.  But why is he avaoiding the mid-Atlantic states?  Customers    here already in the pocket?   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 00:05:14 -0400o, From: "Frank Sapienza" <sapienza@noesys.com> Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing, Message-ID: <af0t7p01aq4@enews4.newsguy.com>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC news:5mOQ8.429770$t8_.98553@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...oL > Without all of this, attendance will be lousy and then HP can point to theJ > results of the tour and say "See, I told you so...why should we have VMS# > presentations when nobody comes."e >:  I Did you register?  Will you be attending?  I agree that there should be a K lot more marketing, but here is someone providing us with information about J something we've all be asking about (a VMS product promotion).  If you andK all the folks here at c.o.v register for the nearest tour (and attend) thenmG they'll have less of a legitimate opportunity to respond the way you'ven described above.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 06:49:44 +0200r- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>g Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing' Message-ID: <3D1401E8.42021921@Free.fr><   Who is this Bob Blatz guy?   D.   "Stuart, Ed" wrote:c > J > HP has scheduled a presentation tour for OpenVMS in the US.  The tour isL > titled "to re-boot or not to re-boot   with OpenVMS there is no question."% > You can get details on the tour at:e- > <http://www.showexhibit.com/hp_openvmstour>    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:29:37 -0500-/ From: "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com>0 Subject: RE: New VMS MarketingT Message-ID: <92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C57A@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us>  H Excellent point made there Frank!  An event whose sole focus is OpenVMS.L We've asked for it and now its here.  It would even be a good opportunity toG ask HP the questions that have been asked in c.o.v.  Remember when someoK posters suggested that advocates their suggestions and feedback directly tolK the decision makers at HP rather than just b*tching about things in c.o.v.?s; This is another avenue to get your feedback to HP.  Use it.l   EdE **Please apply a generous amount of all the usual disclaimers here.**/     > -----Original Message-----3 > From: Frank Sapienza [mailto:sapienza@noesys.com]o& > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 11:05 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com0  > Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing >  > 0 > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageE > news:5mOQ8.429770$t8_.98553@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... > > > Without all of this, attendance will be lousy and then HP  > can point to the: > > results of the tour and say "See, I told you so...why  > should we have VMS% > > presentations when nobody comes."o > >- > @ > Did you register?  Will you be attending?  I agree that there 
 > should be aa< > lot more marketing, but here is someone providing us with  > information about-5 > something we've all be asking about (a VMS product T > promotion).  If you andm< > all the folks here at c.o.v register for the nearest tour  > (and attend) thenr? > they'll have less of a legitimate opportunity to respond the l > way you've > described above. >  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2002 09:38:31 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)g Subject: RE: New VMS Marketing3 Message-ID: <h9NpFIOjf30E@eisner.encompasserve.org>r   In article <92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C57A@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us>, "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> writes:J > Excellent point made there Frank!  An event whose sole focus is OpenVMS.N > We've asked for it and now its here.  It would even be a good opportunity toI > ask HP the questions that have been asked in c.o.v.  Remember when someOM > posters suggested that advocates their suggestions and feedback directly tobM > the decision makers at HP rather than just b*tching about things in c.o.v.?e= > This is another avenue to get your feedback to HP.  Use it.a  B It would also be polite.  Presumably there will be non-c.o.v. folkB there, and one would not want to scare them away for fear of being associated with an unruly mob.  < I think it would be good for everyone to "get out the word".J (I say that now that I have gotten registered before they were filled :-).   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:53:09 +0200o' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>, Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing& Message-ID: <3D1410C5.6CFDFA@spam.not>   John Smith wrote:y > D > Hey Ed - just a question - How did you find out about this 'tour'? > M > How much 'public' notice is there being given to this tour? ie. trade rags, ( > newspapers, targeted mailings, etc.... > L > How many HP sales and marketing reps are going in to see *new* or existingG > customers to say "You know that lousy Dell or IBM 'industry standard'nG > hardware or Sun junk you're running, or that Proliant or Netserver orDK > PA-Risc box we sold you last week...well it's all a bunch of cr*p runningaK > Windoze/Linux/unix. Come to this presentation and we'll show you the REALy	 > stuff!"    :-) :-)g  L > Without all of this, attendance will be lousy and then HP can point to theJ > results of the tour and say "See, I told you so...why should we have VMS# > presentations when nobody comes."^ > N > I hope that HP understands that they are going to have to do this regularly.M > Too bad they didn't do a tour stop  at the SIA show in New York this month, M > but that's probably a bit too front-and-center for them. There'd be lots ofc > very pointed questions.  > I > Not also that the tour is scheduled entirely during the summer vacation L > months, when key decision makers are more often on vacation.  Just another" > good way to keep attendance low. > N > Now HP may turn around internally and say "What the hell do all these peopleJ > in c.o.v.  want? (not that HP is doing this for our exclusive benefit or > anything)r > K > What HP should be doing (IMHO) is starting to do the creative advertising N > work for VMS today, get all the collateral ready and start their advertisingL > with the trade and key general circulation papers next week, have a coupleL > TV spots ready for the baseball All-Star game, the US F1 race, and severalK > golf tournaments, CNBC's Kudlow &Cramer, etc..... Do some sales calls andgE > present marketing material and prime the pump for a Sept-Oct. tour.m  F No. VMS is not for the masses - at least not in the current situation.G People as stupid as interested in sports on TV or even motor car races  I and other crap should never touch VMS (and surely should not be managers e of technical stuff or people).  I VMS is used in areas where decisions are based on plans. To increase VMS rE business substantially a period of five to ten years is necessary of iC advertising, talking to managers and technical investment into the A? product (instead of wasting time and money for stupid Slowaris B compatibility).   D Because of the long period for decisions to become effective VMS is F still in business although a lot of severe damage has been done to it.  G Because of the long period for decisions to become effective HPQ needs bB a long breath to be successful. If they decide after a few months C campaign to drop their activities because of not measurable effect p# they don't understand the business.    > 
 > My $0.02 > < > "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in messageN > news:92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C570@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us. > ..L > > HP has scheduled a presentation tour for OpenVMS in the US.  The tour isN > > titled "to re-boot or not to re-boot   with OpenVMS there is no question."' > > You can get details on the tour at:u/ > > <http://www.showexhibit.com/hp_openvmstour>  > >. > > EdI > > **Please apply a generous amount of all the usual disclaimers here.**  > >d   -- i? According to the Quality Assurance Institute C/C++/ObjC, PERL, l@ UNIX (incl. Linux) and Windows/XY are regarded as harmful. Java 0 is slow and the class library is badly designed.7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:45:29 -0500u1 From: "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com>e Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing1 Message-ID: <af7etu$11r$1@fizban.pprd.abbott.com>m  I In terms of getting the word out, I've already sent this out to the CARTSbH LUG.  Hope others do same.  I'll also send this to Encompass Galatic HQ.  J Oh and I sent a thank you note to:  Stallard, Gorham, Blatz and Pillarelli (last 2 of VMS marketing fame)   -- Dave...c  3 More than one cigar at a time is excessive smoking.a -----Mark Twain   : "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> wrote in message- news:h9NpFIOjf30E@eisner.encompasserve.org...i > In articleI <92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C57A@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us>,c1 "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> writes: L > > Excellent point made there Frank!  An event whose sole focus is OpenVMS.A > > We've asked for it and now its here.  It would even be a goods opportunity toK > > ask HP the questions that have been asked in c.o.v.  Remember when somerL > > posters suggested that advocates their suggestions and feedback directly toG > > the decision makers at HP rather than just b*tching about things in  c.o.v.?a? > > This is another avenue to get your feedback to HP.  Use it.  >aD > It would also be polite.  Presumably there will be non-c.o.v. folkD > there, and one would not want to scare them away for fear of being  > associated with an unruly mob. > > > I think it would be good for everyone to "get out the word".L > (I say that now that I have gotten registered before they were filled :-).   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2002 06:07:20 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)i Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing3 Message-ID: <Jb6chGu4409$@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  W In article <3D1401E8.42021921@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> writes:i > Who is this Bob Blatz guy? >  > D. >  > "Stuart, Ed" wrote:  >>  K >> HP has scheduled a presentation tour for OpenVMS in the US.  The tour is M >> titled "to re-boot or not to re-boot   with OpenVMS there is no question."r& >> You can get details on the tour at:. >> <http://www.showexhibit.com/hp_openvmstour>  G He is a real person who has been in VMS Marketing for at least 5 years.eF I have seen him at US DECUS Symposia, but he has not been in the habitI of giving speeches.  Perhaps he realizes people would rather hear it from. Clair Grant :-)j  D I gather from the title that he recently got promoted to Director of. VMS Marketing.  Perhaps the event is his idea.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 Jun 2002 06:20:28 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen). Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing3 Message-ID: <I$6F0tdMHpt3@eisner.encompasserve.org>g  * The execution of this plan is not perfect.  M I got (what I think is) a registration confirmation in the form of HTML mail.a   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:48:37 GMT,# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>a Subject: Re: New VMS MarketingG Message-ID: <VXIR8.8831$71t1.8041@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>-  - Thanks for letting us know how you found out.r  K Has anyone else here found out about this tour other than via Ed's original- posting?  I Just trying to get a handle on the efficacy of HP's method of getting then	 word out.y      : "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in messageL news:92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C574@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us. ..J > The info on the tour was passed along to me from an HP VAR.  Sorry about theoH > delay in my response, but I didn't check my mail over the weekend.  If> > everything goes as planned I should be at the Houston event. >e > EdG > **Please apply a generous amount of all the usual disclaimers here.**- >  >  > > -----Original Message-----3 > > From: Nic Clews [mailto:sendspamhere@127.0.0.1]o' > > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 6:11 AMe > > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comg" > > Subject: Re: New VMS Marketing > >e > >  > > John Smith wrote:g > > >sH > > > Hey Ed - just a question - How did you find out about this 'tour'? > > >  > >a	 > > John,a > > = > > You've not had an answer to this here yet, still waiting?R > >o > > How do people find out?l > >  > > --C > > Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesn > > nclews at csc dot com  > >!   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:48:36 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>S Subject: Re: New VMS MarketingG Message-ID: <UXIR8.8830$71t1.4233@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>n   Nic,  G Yes, I am still wondering where the 'official' notice for this tour was  first noticed.  H One can go to the HP web site www.hp.com and click on their Newsroom and8 Press Releases links and find no mention of this 'tour'.  L Similarly, one can go to www.compaq.com/openvms and find no apparent mention of this 'tour'.c  L I realize that a company as large as HP likely will have several 'roadshows'J going on at any given time, for a wide variety of their products, not justL OpenVMS. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places, but given the way theseI web sites are organized, unless I had a priori knowledge that I should beeF searching for a particular 'tour', I wouldn't know where to look, if I% should, look, and what to search for.t    B So I am still wondering how this 'tour' was first noticed. Was it: a) only posted on a web site?t b) a direct mailing? c) a phone call?/ d) an HP sales rep making a face-to-face visit?o' e) only told to existing VMS customers? , f) part of a sales pitch to *new* customers?L g) only notified of it if you'd already told HP that your are moving to IBM? i) none of the above?D j) just a cruel hoax?C  L If any of the above, some details would be appreciated from anyone who knows the answer.   K One might say that it should simply be enough that HP is in fact doing thisrL tour, and not to be concerned with how the 'public' becomes aware of it. But0 it is the how that also tells part of the story.   Thanks.n  * PS. I presume you have seen the following:4 http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/18jun02a.htm  H I have inferred that this might be of some interest in what your company does.u  5 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in message1# news:3D16FE3C.BAD679ED@127.0.0.1...i > John Smith wrote:  > >nF > > Hey Ed - just a question - How did you find out about this 'tour'? > >  >m > John,e >u; > You've not had an answer to this here yet, still waiting?e >s > How do people find out?  >s > --A > Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesa > nclews at csc dot com-   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:26:22 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>' Subject: Re: Recent version of GNU GCC?c( Message-ID: <3D1620DE.9DCF7148@mist.com>   Michael Rice wrote:  > C > I have been trying to find a relatively recent version of GCC (>= D > 2.95.3) for Alpha/VMS 7.2.  I have found references to 2.7 and 2.8 > versions, but nothing newer. > E > Apparently ACT has contributed Ada to the current GCC.  It would betJ > great to get the full GCC set (C, C++, Fortran, Ada, Java, etc.) on VMS. > C > Anyone know if newer versions of the GNU compilers are available?K > 	 > Thanks.j	 > Michaelw  : I looked around for this also on gnu.org and couldn't find anything of the latest for VMS.B   ------------------------------  / Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:20:19 +0200 (MET DST)a& From: Rudolf Wingert <win@fom.fgan.de>< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III6 Message-ID: <200206240720.JAA05180@sinet1.fom.fgan.de>   Hello,   Andrew Harrison wrotes:y   >>>y? I have provided a list of comparable benchmarks that illustrateJ? that AlphaServers are currently unable to match the performancel? claims made for them by Compaq, the list are benchmarks done byi= Compaq and they are the only large scale benchmarks availablee for the boxes, <<<a  D Sorry, but I did not see any list of benchmark. I did sent two timesE benchmark, which illustrate the opposite of your statement. The firsteB time you did say, "this benchmark is not relevant, means nothing".B The second Email did you ignore complete, because it could not be,> what you wan't. May be there will be a list of benchmarks withB application not implemented to Alpha, yes, then Alpha is unable to@ match the performance. That's the same as Intel do. Runs an SSE2C optimized code and outperform all the other computers. If you would.D like to know the real performance for your application, you have to 1 run them on the platform, you would like to have. H In this case Andrew you will be little bit right, there are applications never implemented to Alpha.oD If you speak about performance, then you must speak also about down-D time. In the USA is an internet seller without any downtime. He usesH OpenVMS clusters. Can Ebay say the same? No. They do have a lot of down- times with Sun and Solaris.a   Regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:32:32 +0100tU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>e< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III0 Message-ID: <af6vui$gud$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:E   > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<aeusag$sp4$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  >  >>Bob Ceculski wrote:r >> >>] >>>David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message news:<3D11FFDD.1FCC3C6A@caltech.edu>...  >>>t >>>w >>>>Bob Ceculski wrote:v >>>> >>>>G >>>>If I had to bet I'd wager that the HP had much more memory than the H >>>>Sun (because 16Gb is still a lot of memory) and that this particularF >>>>application was able to make use of it (if only for disk caching).G >>>>Now HP might have a selling point still if the Sun cannot hold that K >>>>much memory - but it would  have nothing to do with Itanium performancee >>>>per se.t >>>> >>>>Regards, >>>> >>>>David Mathog >>>>mathog@caltech.edu >>>> >>>>H >>>what's wrong with that?  Sun and others ahve been doing the same with >>>Alpha for years ... >>>t >>>a >>< >>Another repetition of the standard BS, hom many more do we >>have to put up with ?c >>C >>The only performance conspiracy arround is not the responsibilitya@ >>of Sun or others competing with Alphas except that we have all$ >>conspired to produce fast systems. >>	 >>Regards  >>Andrew Harrison0 >> > E > yea, by loading them up with 80,000 worthless sparkies to even make E > a blip on the spec sheets ... single cpu vs single cpu, and now smp7. > with EV7, nobody, I said nobody beats Alpha!    5 You are the person who failed to provide any examples  that support this conjecture.   4 So instead you keep repeating the mantra in the hope0 that if you say it often enough it will be true.  4 The fact that you cannot justify your claims and the3 absurd repetition of them is sad and amusing at theo
 same time.  6 Do you have anything to say that might be believable ?   Regards  Andrew Harrisonl   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:31:07 +0100oU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>l< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III0 Message-ID: <af73cd$i1c$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rudolf Wingert wrote:    > Hello, >  > Andrew Harrison wrotes:@ >  > A > I have provided a list of comparable benchmarks that illustrate A > that AlphaServers are currently unable to match the performanceBA > claims made for them by Compaq, the list are benchmarks done byt? > Compaq and they are the only large scale benchmarks availablee > for the boxes, > <<<h > F > Sorry, but I did not see any list of benchmark. I did sent two timesG > benchmark, which illustrate the opposite of your statement. The firsteD > time you did say, "this benchmark is not relevant, means nothing".D > The second Email did you ignore complete, because it could not be,@ > what you wan't. May be there will be a list of benchmarks withD > application not implemented to Alpha, yes, then Alpha is unable toB > match the performance. That's the same as Intel do. Runs an SSE2E > optimized code and outperform all the other computers. If you woulduF > like to know the real performance for your application, you have to 3 > run them on the platform, you would like to have.oJ > In this case Andrew you will be little bit right, there are applications > never implemented to Alpha. F > If you speak about performance, then you must speak also about down-F > time. In the USA is an internet seller without any downtime. He usesJ > OpenVMS clusters. Can Ebay say the same? No. They do have a lot of down- > times with Sun and Solaris.i >     ; Compaq have published 4 high end commercial type benchmarkse< for the the GS320, 2 are synthetic DBMS benchmarks and 2 are> standard benchmarks developed by a specific application vendor8 to allow that vendor and their partners to size systems.  # Sun has done 3 of the 4 benchmarks:N   SAP R4 SD 2 tier Oracle apps standard benchmark TPC-H'  . In these 3 Sun has higher total throughput and/ higher throughput per CPU than the GS320 eithert  with a Sun 6800 or a Sun F15000.  1 The only benchmark done by Compaq and not done by 4 Sun is TPC-C, we don't see much value in the results3 produced a view which is not without its supporterss6 outside Sun. A number of vendors Sun included proposed4 a high end alternative to TPC-C. This failed to gain2 the required majority of TPC members though it did get a majority of votes.  , On TPC-C the GS320 is currently 4th (5th) if6 you consider that the GS320 had to use OPS in a box to6 be ~5% faster than a 24 CPU IBM P series which did not$ have to resort to those shenanigans.  < Sun has done a number of other large Applications benchmarks; of the SAP/Oracle apps types on the F15000/F6800 PeopleSoftm for example.  6 Compaqs publication of these results but unwillingness4 to fess up to the clear implications of the results,4 namely their lack of a case for claiming performance3 leadership over anyone is the basis of my attack ont! the Alpha performance BS culture.l  5 It would be nice to think that this is something thath4 Compaq did and Digital didn't but examination of the3 same or similar benchmark data for the 8400 revealsl5 the same desire to market AlphaServers as performancem4 leaders while being in possesion of an incriminating set of benchmark results.n   Regardsa Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2002 19:14:18 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206211814.51b92848@posting.google.com>a   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<aeusag$sp4$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...p > Bob Ceculski wrote:a > ^ > > David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message news:<3D11FFDD.1FCC3C6A@caltech.edu>... > >  > >>Bob Ceculski wrote:n > >> > >>G > >>If I had to bet I'd wager that the HP had much more memory than thesH > >>Sun (because 16Gb is still a lot of memory) and that this particularF > >>application was able to make use of it (if only for disk caching).G > >>Now HP might have a selling point still if the Sun cannot hold thateK > >>much memory - but it would  have nothing to do with Itanium performancea > >>per se.t > >> > >>Regards, > >> > >>David Mathog > >>mathog@caltech.edu > >> > > I > > what's wrong with that?  Sun and others ahve been doing the same withD > > Alpha for years ...e > >  >  > < > Another repetition of the standard BS, hom many more do we > have to put up with ?u > C > The only performance conspiracy arround is not the responsibility @ > of Sun or others competing with Alphas except that we have all$ > conspired to produce fast systems. > 	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrisong  C yea, by loading them up with 80,000 worthless sparkies to even makeoC a blip on the spec sheets ... single cpu vs single cpu, and now smpn, with EV7, nobody, I said nobody beats Alpha!   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2002 19:18:20 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206211818.4fd5d54f@posting.google.com>o  Z David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message news:<3D1373FD.135C10BE@caltech.edu>... > Bob Ceculski wrote:h > E > > > Notice they don't say how much memory was in the Sun, what kindsC > > > of disks either was using, or what types of network card were  > > > employed.: > 
 >  (<SNIP> > I > > what's wrong with that?  Sun and others ahve been doing the same withe > > Alpha for years ...  > < > What's wrong is that the intent is to deceive and mislead E > customers rather than to inform them. It is a disreputable practicesA > no matter who does it.  Would that there were more prosecutions7@ > of these things as "false and misleading" advertising  becauseC > that is what they are.  (In general - it's remotely possible that > > this particular one was actually a fair test, but of course,@ > we have no way of knowing that and the lack of key information? > is more consistent with FUD than with a valuable comparison.)  > 
 > Regards, >  > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu  F and since when did you become a truth seeker ... if you owned anythingG but Alpha/VMS the last 10 years, you either didn't care about the truthb: or you fell for the competitors fud hook, line and sinker!   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 03:44:02 GMTa  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net>< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III+ Message-ID: <3D13F281.4D35D9F8@prodigy.net>y   Bob Ceculski wrote:o > \ > David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message news:<3D11FFDD.1FCC3C6A@caltech.edu>... > > Bob Ceculski wrote:i > >eF > > > The test showed that the soon-to-be-announced HP 4-way Itanium 2J > > > server logged results that were four times faster than the 8-way SunH > > > Fire 3800 server. The result was achieved on an Itanium 2-based HPK > > > server configured with four 1 GHz McKinley processors, 16GB of memoryeK > > > and two 18GB hard drives using a beta version of the 64-bit Microsoft  > > > Windows OS.e > > E > > Ah yes, the faithful "performance win for morons" gambit. Partialo; > > information on a "comparison" is the hallmark of unfairi > > and misleading tests.n > >MC > > Notice they don't say how much memory was in the Sun, what kindsA > > of disks either was using, or what types of network card wereh= > > employed.  Pretty easy to make a test go your way if your C > > "competitor" has insufficient memory, slow disks, and/or a slowfD > > nic. For that matter, is the Fire 3800 the current model?  We've> > > already seen Intel comparing Itanium to older Sparc chips.? > > Anybody know what this particular application does?  Was it E > > CPU limited on either platform?  Ie, is there any evidence AT ALLfF > > that the Itanium part of the HP server provided the 4X performance9 > > improvement, which is what the press release implies.- > >-G > > If I had to bet I'd wager that the HP had much more memory than theoH > > Sun (because 16Gb is still a lot of memory) and that this particularF > > application was able to make use of it (if only for disk caching).G > > Now HP might have a selling point still if the Sun cannot hold thatrK > > much memory - but it would  have nothing to do with Itanium performancec > > per se.e > >o > > Regards, > >d > > David Mathog > > mathog@caltech.edu > G > what's wrong with that?  Sun and others ahve been doing the same with@ > Alpha for years ....    So you admit that was done here?   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:01:57 +0100pU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>s< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III0 Message-ID: <af78mn$joc$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Terry C. Shannon wrote:a  / > "cjt" <cheljuba@prodigy.net> wrote in messagem' > news:3D13F281.4D35D9F8@prodigy.net...2 >  >>Bob Ceculski wrote:n >>5 >>>David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote in message  >>> ) > news:<3D11FFDD.1FCC3C6A@caltech.edu>...e > 
 g@caltech.edui >>>>H >>>what's wrong with that?  Sun and others ahve been doing the same with >>>Alpha for years ... >>> " >>So you admit that was done here? >> > J > Of course it was done here. Look at damn near any TPC configuration thatK > comes to mind. Does it resemble a real-world configuration? Hell no! This-9 > applies to HPQ and to every other vendor on the planet.  >     @ Sadly Digital and then after them Compaq were one of the biggest> culprits when it comes to destroying the credibility of TPC-C.  < Digital led with one of the first clustered TPC-C results onA 8 x 8400, claiming that this showed unrivaled scalability (it didw= not) it just showed how TPC-C could be configured to get goods throughput with a cluster.  B Compaq then followed with the first of a string of 8 way clustered? shared nothing TPC-C results using Proliants, at least the 8400c< result was on a shared something cluster. It was this result? that alerted people to the bogosity of relying on TPC-C resultso as a performance metric.  @ Compaq followed that with the OPS in a box shenanigans, the onlyD thing you can say in their defense was that they were only following Sequents lead.  A Digital were also a key part of the ultimate bogus Benchmarketingn> scam otherwise know as Microsoft Scalability day where various@ people who should have known better debased themselves and their companies reputation on stage.  > Very few vendors have descended to level that Digipaq have and? most of us would take offence at being placed in the same boat.    Regards  Andrew Harrisono   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:22:00 GMTe5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>,< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III2 Message-ID: <cWFR8.11$6d5.414789@news.cpqcorp.net>  I Oh come on.  Let's not go over the top on this.  One might assume that ittJ was properly configured - why would a customer deliberately misconfigure aH system?  How many systems do customers use with too little memory?  Or aF slow NIC?  Or buy disk subsystems to deliberately run slower?  You canF complain that such a testimonial "might" not be a valid as a "generic"I benchmark - but it wasn't presented as such.  But such ad-hoc comparisons0K are common - indeed, Andrew argues frequently that it is actual performancey( on customer workloads that is important.  K Knowing absolutely nothing about the system or the customer, all it says to L me is that, despite claims to the contrary, Itanium-2 systems are capable ofJ competetive performance on a real customer application against Sun - not a  particularly "high" bar to jump.  J Sun is quite capable of going in and trying to determine how (if possible)K they can reconfigure their system to refute the comparison.  Just like theywL could have tried to figure out why they couldn't meet acceptance criteria on a "Super Computer".h    @ David Mathog wrote in message <3D1373FD.135C10BE@caltech.edu>... >Bob Ceculski wrote: >eD >> > Notice they don't say how much memory was in the Sun, what kindB >> > of disks either was using, or what types of network card were >> > employed. > 	 > (<SNIP>r >nH >> what's wrong with that?  Sun and others ahve been doing the same with >> Alpha for years ... >n: >What's wrong is that the intent is to deceive and misleadD >customers rather than to inform them. It is a disreputable practice@ >no matter who does it.  Would that there were more prosecutions? >of these things as "false and misleading" advertising  because B >that is what they are.  (In general - it's remotely possible that= >this particular one was actually a fair test, but of course,h? >we have no way of knowing that and the lack of key information > >is more consistent with FUD than with a valuable comparison.) >e	 >Regards,  >e
 >David Mathogd >mathog@caltech.edur   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:31:11 GMTn5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>c< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III2 Message-ID: <P2GR8.12$qf5.526396@news.cpqcorp.net>  7 cjt wrote in message <3D14C5FB.87D023C0@prodigy.net>...e > L >Just wanted to make sure everybody agreed it was an "unfair and misleading"	 >article.   J Nope, I don't.  It may have less information in it than it could have had,6 but it doesn't seem to me to be unfair, or misleading.  J A test against an existing system, which one might "assume" was configuredJ properly by the customer and vendor - tested slower than a new system.  InJ fact, I would assume that this is exactly what the customer was interestedK in...  that is, the two interesting questions are - how fast is it, and howkL much does it cost.  What is missing here is the cost part of it - although IC can't imagine that an 8-way Sun system would cost less than a 4-waya Itanium-2 system.?   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2002 10:29:16 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)-< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III3 Message-ID: <dxHprTl7HclQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  j In article <cWFR8.11$6d5.414789@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: > L > Sun is quite capable of going in and trying to determine how (if possible)M > they can reconfigure their system to refute the comparison.  Just like they$N > could have tried to figure out why they couldn't meet acceptance criteria on > a "Super Computer".d >   9 	Such a happy bunch of bearded men in this press release.t  4 http://www.sun.com.au/news/localpress/2000/08/1.html  N "Sun has worked closely with the Australian academic community for many years.N These relationships have resulted in the cultivation of technologies that haveE significant market implications and that will instigate change in the  information technology sector. n  M "The size and complexity of the data computations involved in APACs work alsoeO gives us an excellent opportunity to demonstrate the robustness and scalabilityc of the Sun system.">    : 	Robustness in the middle of the Zinc Whiskers campaign?  1 	"Cough Cough".  Tell that to the Verisign folks.   7  http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2000/1113/6613068a_3.htmle   G "Last November [1999] Verisign Global Registry Services, a domain name nK registry, was down for two hours after a crucial Sun box crashed. Verisign wM complained but got no explanation. Months later an executive at Verisign ran i across the Gartner bulletin."    M "I said to Sun, 'My God, you knew about this problem, and you didn't tell me?.L That's unconscionable,' " he says.Verisign still uses Sun for some tasks but3 has moved important systems onto IBM Unix servers. i   				Robp   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:22:28 +0100aU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> < Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III0 Message-ID: <af7ddn$leo$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  9 > cjt wrote in message <3D14C5FB.87D023C0@prodigy.net>...- > M >>Just wanted to make sure everybody agreed it was an "unfair and misleading"i
 >>article. >> > L > Nope, I don't.  It may have less information in it than it could have had,8 > but it doesn't seem to me to be unfair, or misleading. > L > A test against an existing system, which one might "assume" was configuredL > properly by the customer and vendor - tested slower than a new system.  InL > fact, I would assume that this is exactly what the customer was interestedM > in...  that is, the two interesting questions are - how fast is it, and howaN > much does it cost.  What is missing here is the cost part of it - although IE > can't imagine that an 8-way Sun system would cost less than a 4-wayt > Itanium-2 system.i >  >     7 Why, a Sun V880 with 8 CPU's costs ~100,000 last time Id3 looked the Intanium I 4 CPU boxes with 16 GB of RAMg. being sold by Compaq were listing for >80,000.     Regardsu Andrew Harrisont       >  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:41:22 GMTo5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>r< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III2 Message-ID: <SYHR8.19$075.248925@news.cpqcorp.net>  6 Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message ... >i >  > 8 >Why, a Sun V880 with 8 CPU's costs ~100,000 last time I4 >looked the Intanium I 4 CPU boxes with 16 GB of RAM/ >being sold by Compaq were listing for >80,000.o >p  G To be honest, I have no idea what the Itanium boxes were priced at, let-I alone Sun's - I'm just an engineer and not in marketing or sales.  But it I seems we are not talking about a Compaq Itanium-1 designed (well, I'd say L that *everyone's* Itanium-1 box was really just a repackaged Intel referenceB platform) box are we?  I think we are talking about an HP designedJ (including it's own core IO chipset) Itanium-2 box - and so you are reallyK making a very big wish in hoping that the price will be 20% higher than the3 Itanium-1 boxes you quote.  L So even accepting your figures, it would seem that an Itanium-2 box could beL priced 20% higher than an Itanium-1 box, and *still* beat a Sun box that hasJ twice the CPU count.  Exactly what is the upside for Sun you are trying to
 point out?  G If I were you, I'd start hoping that AMD can stop slipping their Hammers@ schedule so that you can migrate off Sparc before it's too late.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:48:07 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky IIIA Message-ID: <b3IR8.58655$Ny6.3184584@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:cWFR8.11$6d5.414789@news.cpqcorp.net...K > Oh come on.  Let's not go over the top on this.  One might assume that itpL > was properly configured - why would a customer deliberately misconfigure a	 > system?b  C Why do you assume that the configuring was done by a customer?  The I presentation appears to have been organized by HP and/or Intel, which aree hardly unbiased in this matter.h   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:22:11 GMTg5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>f< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III2 Message-ID: <7zIR8.23$nl5.807063@news.cpqcorp.net>  J Come on Bill.  Sure, this was a Sun system running a customer application, provided by HP.        Bill Todd wrote in message ... >-A >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message.- >news:cWFR8.11$6d5.414789@news.cpqcorp.net... L >> Oh come on.  Let's not go over the top on this.  One might assume that itK >> was properly configured - why would a customer deliberately misconfigureo ae
 >> system? >cD >Why do you assume that the configuring was done by a customer?  TheJ >presentation appears to have been organized by HP and/or Intel, which are  >hardly unbiased in this matter. >e >- bill  >  >> >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 18:23:54 +0100 U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>i< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky III0 Message-ID: <af7khd$nph$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  8 > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message ... >  >> >>9 >>Why, a Sun V880 with 8 CPU's costs ~100,000 last time I,5 >>looked the Intanium I 4 CPU boxes with 16 GB of RAM 0 >>being sold by Compaq were listing for >80,000. >> >> > I > To be honest, I have no idea what the Itanium boxes were priced at, letiK > alone Sun's - I'm just an engineer and not in marketing or sales.  But it K > seems we are not talking about a Compaq Itanium-1 designed (well, I'd sayoN > that *everyone's* Itanium-1 box was really just a repackaged Intel referenceD > platform) box are we?  I think we are talking about an HP designedL > (including it's own core IO chipset) Itanium-2 box - and so you are reallyM > making a very big wish in hoping that the price will be 20% higher than thet > Itanium-1 boxes you quote. >     N > So even accepting your figures, it would seem that an Itanium-2 box could beN > priced 20% higher than an Itanium-1 box, and *still* beat a Sun box that hasL > twice the CPU count.  Exactly what is the upside for Sun you are trying to > point out? >     6 But this is only a valid comparison if you believe the9 Benchmarketing campaign being run by Intel at the moment.   @ If you take a more cautious view based on Intels own performance< estimates for IA-64-II vs IA-64-I you get a rather different story.    I > If I were you, I'd start hoping that AMD can stop slipping their HammerlB > schedule so that you can migrate off Sparc before it's too late. >     = Somewhat like Compaq have done (if the corporate possitioningp$ statements were true) with Alpha ???   Regards  Andrew Harrisono   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:48:33 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>I< Subject: Re: Reuters test - Itanium II blows away Sparky IIIG Message-ID: <RXIR8.8826$71t1.1829@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>h  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagew< news:yEaR8.350776$Gs.27292816@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > G > Quite possibly a wise move from a financial viewpoint.  But I suspectt you'drL > still take a high-level HP marketing position should one just happen to beK > offered, and also have some interest in the company's continued viabilityn so8 > that you'll still have some 'paid subscribers' around.    D Shannon Knows All About VMS to AIX Migration as a possible successor publication????b  ( It might prove to have more subscribers.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 06:39:36 GMTg  From: cjt <cheljuba@prodigy.net> Subject: Re: size of exe+ Message-ID: <3D16BEA9.DFBCD28E@prodigy.net>    wing wrote:o >  > Hi,e > @ > I have use the same set of sources to compile binaries but the. > binaries compiled are having different size. > G > Is it possible for the same compiler in a machine to compile binaries  > with different size? >   > The binary that I am using are, > Compaq C++ V6.3-020 for OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 >  > Wing  O Obviously, if you compile with different options you can get different results."   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:27:30 -0400s2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: size of exe. Message-ID: <3D174872.4209580F@mindspring.com>   Or your libraries changed.  1 Or your headers and/or macros (.h files) changed.m  3 Heck, even something as simple as an automatically- 5 generated "build timestamp" can cause this, what with  "June" being longer than "May".    Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 13:42:29 +0100IU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>W* Subject: Re: Sun/Slowaris future in doubt!0 Message-ID: <af741n$i1c$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:e   > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<aeurbg$shd$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...u >  >>Bob Ceculski wrote:  >> >>x >>>"John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<qmnQ8.418557$t8_.376314@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>... >>>c >>>.9 >>>>"Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagen: >>>>news:d7791aa1.0206200538.3bd4a7a@posting.google.com... >>>> >>>>G >>>>>and if itanic/epic does fail, I say that is why Intel bought AlphaaD >>>>>insurance and you will see EV8 - EV9 pop up again with an IntelG >>>>>logo on it ... Intel will not risk the failure, and a Hammer knockmE >>>>>off will not help them compete in the high end, only Alpha would28 >>>>>then ... of course, Bill Todd disagrees with me ... >>>>>c >>>>>e; >>They are not, the Alpha engineering team have left to gots7 >>to Intel and other processor development teams. Intel7: >>who seem to have the majority are not going to introduce: >>another ISA into their product mix. It does not make any >>business sense to do so. >>; >>Alpha ISA is dead from a long term development standpointa: >>Intel have IA-32, IA-64, unless forced to move to x86-648 >>by Microsoft and the market. They are nor going to add; >>Alpha to this stable. Anyone who seriously thinks this is < >>a possibility does not understand the issues of supporting >>and developing an ISA. >>	 >>Regards  >>Andrew Harrisonn >> > A > Do you work for Sun, or HP, or Intel, or all three?  Or do worknB > part time for a physic hotline?  You would be the last person HPA > or Intel would tell about what is going on!  Everything you areq@ > sputtering is pure speculation on your part ... Intel will not? > lay an egg with itanic ... either the Alpha team will make iteC > work or hello EV8, and somewhere back in one of those dark littlec= > blue intel rooms, I'll bet EV8 work is proceeding this veryiE > minute!  You are agreeing on speculation that they are also workingwB > on a hammer knock off, why not EV8?  Your slip is showing just a > bit, isn't it? >     9 Bob, you seem to have a difficulty distinguishing between ; informed speculation and uninformed speculation. I am doingl the former, you the latter.p   Regardsm Andrew Harrisonf   ------------------------------    Date: 21 Jun 2002 19:10:42 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)* Subject: Re: Sun/Slowaris future in doubt!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0206211810.35427c16@posting.google.com>o   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<aeurbg$shd$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...o > Bob Ceculski wrote:n > y > > "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message news:<qmnQ8.418557$t8_.376314@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>...  > > 9 > >>"Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in message,: > >>news:d7791aa1.0206200538.3bd4a7a@posting.google.com... > >>G > >>>and if itanic/epic does fail, I say that is why Intel bought AlphayD > >>>insurance and you will see EV8 - EV9 pop up again with an IntelG > >>>logo on it ... Intel will not risk the failure, and a Hammer knockpE > >>>off will not help them compete in the high end, only Alpha wouldt8 > >>>then ... of course, Bill Todd disagrees with me ... > >>>r > ; > They are not, the Alpha engineering team have left to got 7 > to Intel and other processor development teams. Intel : > who seem to have the majority are not going to introduce: > another ISA into their product mix. It does not make any > business sense to do so. > ; > Alpha ISA is dead from a long term development standpointt: > Intel have IA-32, IA-64, unless forced to move to x86-648 > by Microsoft and the market. They are nor going to add; > Alpha to this stable. Anyone who seriously thinks this isf< > a possibility does not understand the issues of supporting > and developing an ISA. > 	 > Regardsq > Andrew Harrisonn  ? Do you work for Sun, or HP, or Intel, or all three?  Or do worke@ part time for a physic hotline?  You would be the last person HP? or Intel would tell about what is going on!  Everything you are > sputtering is pure speculation on your part ... Intel will not= lay an egg with itanic ... either the Alpha team will make itNA work or hello EV8, and somewhere back in one of those dark little>; blue intel rooms, I'll bet EV8 work is proceeding this veryeC minute!  You are agreeing on speculation that they are also working @ on a hammer knock off, why not EV8?  Your slip is showing just a bit, isn't it?   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 21:00:15 GMT ( From: Alder <PGDEHMKOKIMD@spammotel.com>4 Subject: Re: TCPIP (and other) PAKa for Hobbyist kit, Message-ID: <3D1636DF.7080304@spammotel.com>   Michael Rice wrote: J > You need to go back to the Montagar site and use the "License Register" H > option a second time.  On the "Hobbyist License Registration" screen, 8 > select "Layered Products" in the "License Type" field. >   1 Thanks, Michael.  Enjoy the rest of your weekend.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 17:44:54 GMT-( From: Alder <PGDEHMKOKIMD@spammotel.com>0 Subject: TCPIP (and other) PAKa for Hobbyist kit* Message-ID: <3D160914.70602@spammotel.com>  8 Please forgive what will certainly be a stupid question.  F I installed the Hobbyist kit (Alpha) yesterday and ran into a request G for the TCPIP PAK when I tried enabling some clients and servers.  The  G only PAK I received from Montagar was the one at the end of the e-mail  D it sends confirming the new Hobbyist license.  Their web site has a F table of PAK names, but the other parameters for the LICENSE REGISTER  command don't seem to be there.g  I Where should I be looking for the PAK info for the layered products that   are included with the kit?   Thanks for your indulgence,o   Aldern   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:58:16 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>eD Subject: Re: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing. Message-ID: <YjNQ8.104802$nZ3.43958@rwcrnsc53>  G Umm, it wasn't California that made all the money in the electric power-I market. It was Enron, et al. Of course, once and no-doubt future GovernorsA Gray "Blackout" Davis had more than a little to do with the powernK shenanigans. Sure am glad I don't live in CA and have to pay for government"K ineptitude. (I can pay for ineptitude where I currently live instead ;-}. )p  7 "WILLIAM WEBB" <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote in message ' news:0033000069122561000002L012*@MHS...f  2 They had to invest all that money they made in the$ electric power market *somewhere*...   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETn# Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 3:24 PMwB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETD Subject: RE: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing     James Gessling wrote:e >l: > > care to elaborate for those of us on the East coast... > >nC > Here's all the dirt you would ever need on Oracle ripping off theo > state of california. >eK > http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/companies/oracle/l >  > Jimn  G It was the California Government that specified the number of licenses, H not Oracle.  Oracle simply quoted a price for the number requested.  The> fault lies with the current attitude at the California seat ofD government of "we don't need to tell anyone what we're doing and can. work in secret without any form of oversight".  G This particular contract was done as a no-bid contract and bypassed theo normal oversight procedures.   I know, I have to live with it.i  
 Mark Berrymans Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com in sunny San Diego=    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:10:25 GMTc# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>eD Subject: Re: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper ManufacturingH Message-ID: <BnOQ8.98189$831.71477@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  6 Aren't you moving to Palo Alto to be near galactic HQ?      < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:YjNQ8.104802$nZ3.43958@rwcrnsc53...I > Umm, it wasn't California that made all the money in the electric powerrK > market. It was Enron, et al. Of course, once and no-doubt future GovernortC > Gray "Blackout" Davis had more than a little to do with the powergB > shenanigans. Sure am glad I don't live in CA and have to pay for
 governmentF > ineptitude. (I can pay for ineptitude where I currently live instead ;-}. ) > 9 > "WILLIAM WEBB" <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote in messagee) > news:0033000069122561000002L012*@MHS...r >d4 > They had to invest all that money they made in the& > electric power market *somewhere*... >t > WWWebb >a > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETt% > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 3:24 PMiD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETF > Subject: RE: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing >  >  > James Gessling wrote:i > >C< > > > care to elaborate for those of us on the East coast... > > >iE > > Here's all the dirt you would ever need on Oracle ripping off thee > > state of california. > >  > > I http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/companies/oracle/M > >r > > Jim  >iI > It was the California Government that specified the number of licenses, J > not Oracle.  Oracle simply quoted a price for the number requested.  The@ > fault lies with the current attitude at the California seat ofF > government of "we don't need to tell anyone what we're doing and can0 > work in secret without any form of oversight". >sI > This particular contract was done as a no-bid contract and bypassed thea > normal oversight procedures. > ! > I know, I have to live with it.  >i > Mark Berrymana > Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com > in sunny San Diego=a >t >C   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:19:11 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>oD Subject: Re: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing? Message-ID: <z8RQ8.128838$6m5.111520@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>y  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageB news:BnOQ8.98189$831.71477@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...8 > Aren't you moving to Palo Alto to be near galactic HQ?  I There is no way on God's green earth that I would move to Silicon Valley.oL Heck, my current property will sell for $220K if I am lucky. My gross annualL income exceeded 100K once, and that was a decade ago. $100K gross ain't muchJ if you are self-employed and have significant business expenses (plus bothG ends of Social Security to deal with, no medical insurance, 401K, etc).8  A In other words, I couldn't afford to be anywhere near the Valley.u  L Current legal address is in Texas, it will be New Mexico this fall. Which isJ fine if I continue to have a relationship of any sort with HPQ... both IAHG and SFO/SJC are less than two hours away by air (plus two hours for the K strip search, colonscopy, and CAT scan at Airport Insecurity). BOS is about K 6 hours (plus Airport Insecurity( with mandatory connections, but somehow I 7 don't see New England being a hotbed of growth for HPQ.n   >a >s >e> > "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message* > news:YjNQ8.104802$nZ3.43958@rwcrnsc53...K > > Umm, it wasn't California that made all the money in the electric power0D > > market. It was Enron, et al. Of course, once and no-doubt future GovernorE > > Gray "Blackout" Davis had more than a little to do with the powerID > > shenanigans. Sure am glad I don't live in CA and have to pay for > governmentH > > ineptitude. (I can pay for ineptitude where I currently live instead > ;-}. ) > > ; > > "WILLIAM WEBB" <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote in messages+ > > news:0033000069122561000002L012*@MHS...n > > 6 > > They had to invest all that money they made in the( > > electric power market *somewhere*... > >r
 > > WWWebb > >c > > -----Original Message-----3 > > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETo' > > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 3:24 PMpF > > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETH > > Subject: RE: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing > >- > >- > > James Gessling wrote:u > > >1> > > > > care to elaborate for those of us on the East coast... > > > >rG > > > Here's all the dirt you would ever need on Oracle ripping off thes > > > state of california. > > >h > > >@K > http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/companies/oracle/o > > >c	 > > > Jimm > >eK > > It was the California Government that specified the number of licenses, L > > not Oracle.  Oracle simply quoted a price for the number requested.  TheB > > fault lies with the current attitude at the California seat ofH > > government of "we don't need to tell anyone what we're doing and can2 > > work in secret without any form of oversight". > >mK > > This particular contract was done as a no-bid contract and bypassed thet  > > normal oversight procedures. > >j# > > I know, I have to live with it.l > >m > > Mark Berrymani > > Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com > > in sunny San Diego=  > >o > >  >p >)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:46:18 -0400t* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>D Subject: RE: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing- Message-ID: <0033000069591493000002L032*@MHS>   6 =0AI guess I needed to put a smiley or sarcasm tags on  the post about electric power...   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETu# Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 7:18 AMyB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETD Subject: RE: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing    6 Aren't you moving to Palo Alto to be near galactic HQ?      < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message( news:YjNQ8.104802$nZ3.43958@rwcrnsc53...H > Umm, it wasn't California that made all the money in the electric pow= erH > market. It was Enron, et al. Of course, once and no-doubt future Gove= rnorC > Gray "Blackout" Davis had more than a little to do with the power B > shenanigans. Sure am glad I don't live in CA and have to pay for
 governmentF > ineptitude. (I can pay for ineptitude where I currently live instead ;-}. ) >$9 > "WILLIAM WEBB" <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote in messageo) > news:0033000069122561000002L012*@MHS...g > 4 > They had to invest all that money they made in the& > electric power market *somewhere*... >o > WWWebb >  > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETo% > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 3:24 PMeD > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETF > Subject: RE: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing >n >  > James Gessling wrote:a > >a< > > > care to elaborate for those of us on the East coast... > > >rE > > Here's all the dirt you would ever need on Oracle ripping off the0 > > state of california. > >e > >@H http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/companies/oracl= e/ > >  > > Jimw >eH > It was the California Government that specified the number of license= s,H > not Oracle.  Oracle simply quoted a price for the number requested.  = Ther@ > fault lies with the current attitude at the California seat ofF > government of "we don't need to tell anyone what we're doing and can0 > work in secret without any form of oversight". >oH > This particular contract was done as a no-bid contract and bypassed t= he > normal oversight procedures. >2! > I know, I have to live with it.t >t > Mark Berrymano > Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com > in sunny San Diego=3D- >  >=   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:19:11 GMTe2 From: "Sue Skonetski" <susan.skonetski@compaq.com>D Subject: Re: The VMS customer minute of the day: Paper Manufacturing2 Message-ID: <jwIR8.22$lg5.580700@news.cpqcorp.net>   Didier,   J Just letting you know that I am using this as an OpenVMS Pearl, which is a9 message I send out to the engineers a on a regular basis.o  
 Warm Regards,o Suei: "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message! news:3D12088F.E2CACB41@Free.fr...u6 > [disclaimer: this is a *true* story, written my way] >U >oG > I went to visit a Customer today. They have a huge plant, where treesn enter byL > one side and paper exits by the other. All this driven by a cluster of two 4100,hJ > a thousand of Fortran (77) programs, Rdb and PC-driven automats. Bob was theire > uncle since 15 years.> > F > Then a new CEO came and said: "IT close future will be UNIX/Oracle". Period.a >2J > An Oracle guru came later and installed Oracle Server on a PC. He gave a demo to, > the VMS folks here.l >u  > This happened during the demo: >l	 > [start] J > Someone asked: "Is this real robust software compared to Rdb/VMS?" (they still, > say VMS).  >c > Oracle guru said: "sure".e >o3 > VMS system manager asked: "may I type a command?". >f > Oracle guru: "Sure"g >sB > The VMS guy deleted the Oracle demo database with a command like f$trnlnm("$t > delete oracle.db;*","unix")p >eJ > Oracle Guru: "you see, the db is deleted but we still have access to the data,t5 > because they were in a cache. This is really good".o >a > VMS guy: ... >sA > Oracle Kernel said: "database corrupted, Sir, cannot continue."t >aI > VMS guy to Oracle guru: "one can delete a file opened in update mode onM your > system, Sir?". >eI > Oracle guru: "Well, you see, I'm just an Oracle specialist, not an UNIX  system manager." > [end]o >nK > The VMS system manager wrote a report to his manager, who sent the reportd to theK > IT manager, with some comments on the fact that maybe they could keep VMS  foroF > the moment. The IT manager sent the report and the comments with his comments tol > the new CEO. >hD > What do you think occurred? The new CEO purchased two ES40/OpenVMS
 7.3/Oracle 8.. >nL > Moral: "The reason of the strongest (in marketing, advertising, support [a ddB > your favourites in here] is not always the best one" (Jean de la
 Fontaine). >o' > (with a special thank you to Stan R.)v >i > D. > --4 >   ------------------------------------------------4 > MORANDI Consultants  http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr2 >   19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.4 > Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax: +33 (0)5 6154 19284 > OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans4 > --------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:17:40 -0400:H From: "Stephen Eickhoff (remove dash below)" <seickhoff@mind-spring.com>! Subject: Trouble with Samba 2.0.3d. Message-ID: <3D168144.1040402@mind-spring.com>  G I've managed to get the client part working, but what i really need is uE the smbd. When I run smbd_setup_tcpip.com, it starts up the service.  H However, only a few seconds later the service terminates. The log looks 
 like this:  E [2002/06/23 22:12:15, 1] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.SMBD]SERVER.C;2:(643)     smbd version 2.0.6 started.&    Copyright Andrew Tridgell 1992-1998I [2002/06/23 22:12:15, 0] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.PARAM]LOADPARM.C;2:(1797) +    No path in service printers - using /tmphG [2002/06/23 22:12:17, 0] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.LIB]UTIL_SOCK.C;2:(148) G    Failed to set socket option SO_KEEPALIVE (Error invalid i/o channel) G [2002/06/23 22:12:17, 0] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.LIB]UTIL_SOCK.C;2:(148) D    Failed to set socket option SO_RCVBUF (Error invalid i/o channel)G [2002/06/23 22:12:17, 0] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.LIB]UTIL_SOCK.C;2:(148)dD    Failed to set socket option SO_SNDBUF (Error invalid i/o channel)G [2002/06/23 22:12:17, 0] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.LIB]UTIL_SOCK.C;2:(148)tG    Failed to set socket option SO_KEEPALIVE (Error invalid i/o channel)rB [2002/06/23 22:12:18, 0] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.LIB]FAULT.C;1:(40)B    ===============================================================B [2002/06/23 22:12:18, 0] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.LIB]FAULT.C;1:(41)5    INTERNAL ERROR: Signal 10 in pid 555745586 (2.0.6) 4    Please read the file BUGS.txt in the distributionB [2002/06/23 22:12:18, 0] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA.SOURCE.LIB]FAULT.C;1:(43)B    ===============================================================G [2002/06/23 22:12:18, 0] CMS_ROOT:[SAMBA_VMS.SOURCE.LIB]UTIL.C;1:(2456)E    PANIC: internal error   Where did I mess up?  - BTW, there's no bugs.txt in the distribution.    ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2002 16:41:44 GMT From: phn@icke-reklam.ipsec.nu Subject: Re: unix historyr) Message-ID: <af7i48$bb0$3@nyheter.crt.se>v  C Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-earth.ufp> wrote:ne > In article <3D11CA53.FE766ACE@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:- >> Simon Clubley wrote:u >>  J >>> In that case, which version of FreeBSD do you recommend that newcomers >>> to FreeBSD start with ?  >> i/ >> The MacOS/X version. (Well, I *THINK* that'so >> a FreeBSD.) >> o  M > My platform of interest is x86. Given Bill's comments about current FreeBSD M > packaging issues, I was interested in how many versions of FreeBSD I shouldeF > go back from the current one to find one that is packaged correctly.    . 4.5 works ok for me. So does 4.3 4.1 and 4.0    R I also have some older CD kits, 3.1 2.2.7 ( that one was very good for it's time )       > Simon.   > -- TD > Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       - > Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.n   --   Peter Hkanson         t7         IPSec  Sverige      ( At Gothenburg Riverside )eJ            Sorry about my e-mail address, but i'm trying to keep spam out,; 	   remove "icke-reklam" if you feel for mailing me. Thanx.d   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:11:41 -0400s! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> E Subject: Re: US-NC Spanish Cobol VAX/VMS ACMS FMS Mailbox Programmer/e' Message-ID: <3D171A8D.90FCAD6E@vcu.edu>   0 Hey, I apologize also, to the list and to you...  B Joke, what do you call someone who speaks 2 languages?  Bi-lingual   one?  American..   jim    schiffkey@cfl.rr.com wrote:1 >  > I apologize. > This email is meant to amuse.c: > Method: "to poke fun of" here means "to poke fun AT".... > E > I was not aware that asking someone to speak more than one languagea6 > would open a floodgate of paranoia and prejudice!!!! > 1 > While it is not considered "the same thing"....d& > and all in good humour... what if... > 0 > Would you have said the same thing if I asked:> > "write programs in cobol AND basic AND dibol AND c AND....." > . > Being multi-lingual is NOT a negative thing. > : > While I have nothing against people being proud of theirB > native country (stress native?) or their native tongue (possible6 > obscene joke on tongue), I do have something against< > insulting people because they don't speak American English= > (which is just a bastardization of British English, anyway)t > @ > Let's remember that every war (every?) is based on differences5 > and basically saying "my way is better than yours".: > , > From Orbit - there are no country borders.: > Of course, from Orbit - you can't see the people either. > Ok, this is going nowhere.... - > Which is where this discussion belongs!!!!!  > % > Can we all get back to vax/vms ????t > 2 > And re-direct our anger where it really belongs?' > At DEC, COMPAQ, HP, ASK, Ingres, etc.l > + > "New" topic: "How to take a great productt$ > and ruin it with 20 years or less" > H > On Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:17:49 -0400, Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote: > H > >Had occasion to handle "carefully" a certain DECUS program to provideI > >"tail" functionality on a pdp-11... written in C in German, and inlinet8 > >in the code was the documentation, also, in German... > >s > >j.i > >t > >Fabio Cardoso wrote:o > >> > >> Portuguese Cobol  > >> > >> DIVISAO DE PROCEDIMENTO > >> DIVISAO DE DADOSr > >> DIVISAO DE AMBIENTE > >> DIVISAO DE IDENTIFICACAO- > >>6 > >> As you see... WE DONT SPEAK SPANISH IN BRAZIL!!!! > >>3 > >> It is the same to say that English is equal too > >> Dutch ... > >> > >> Regards > >> > >> FC-4 > >> --- WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote: > >> > > >> > Spanish COBOL?  > >> >  > >> > DIVISION DE PROCEDIMIENTO > >> > DIVISION DE DATOS > >> > DIVISION DE AMBIENTEm! > >> > DIVISION DE IDENTIFICACION@ > >> >
 > >> > WWWebb  > >> > > >> >! > >> > -----Original Message-----e6 > >> > From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET+ > >> > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 11:41 AMl' > >> > To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC;o( > >> > Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET8 > >> > Subject: RE: US-NC Spanish Cobol VAX/VMS ACMS FMS > >> > Mailbox Programmer/ > >> > > >> >8 > >> > You're right about that... Really, theres nothing > >> > wrong with Spanish..,8 > >> > Heavens to Betsy, I have a Mexican sister-in-law, > >> > too..  Actually,t; > >> > thinking again and not shooting off my keyboard, thee > >> > requirement could: > >> > be for chatting with a plant somewhere in Mexico... > >> >: > >> > I retract my rant...  Hopefully I attempted to make > >> > people think, but > >> > probably not..a > >> > > >> > Jim Agnew > >> > > >> > Larry Kilgallen wrote:p > >> > >: > >> > > In article <3D132BB1.2119BD44@vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew  > >> > <jpagnew@vcu.edu> writes:5 > >> > > > I hate to pick a nit, but if you're in thel$ > >> > U.S.A., you came to a country7 > >> > > > where English is the language.  If I move ton > >> > Mexico, I'd *expect* to > >> > > > learn Spanish...r > >> > >6 > >> > > So Spanish is an unusual skill (for Charlotte > >> > North Carolina).  > >> > >; > >> > > What is wrong with listing it as a job requirementT > >> > ? > >> > >2 > >> > > Better Spanish than Microsoft Windows :-) > >> > >% > >> > > > j1076366@cfl.rr.com wrote:w > >> > > >>d8 > >> > > >> US-NC Spanish Cobol VAX/VMS ACMS FMS Mailbox > >> > Programmer/Analystt > >> > > >>a$ > >> > > >> Charlotte North Carolina > >> > > >>g; > >> > > >> Senior Programmer/Analyst with extensive skills  > >> > in Cobol, Alpha, anda: > >> > > >> DCL in a VAX, VMS environment. Prefer FMS ACMS > >> > experience. The4 > >> > > >> environment is manufacturing. Program to! > >> > program communication, dcl ; > >> > > >> scripting, mailbox programming. This individualc > >> > should be a team87 > >> > > >> player to be able to be productive from daym > >> > one. The individual wills: > >> > > >> help support the company's ongoing initiatives > >> > for new developmentsv7 > >> > > >> and upgrades. There is a potential for fulla > >> > time after the initialo9 > >> > > >> contract period. This position does not offerl > >> > interviewing or% > >> > > >> relocation reimbursement.  > >> > > >>d: > >> > > >> ! Candidate must Speak and Write in Spanish  !, > >> > > >>        * Local candidates only *' > >> > > >>              * US citizen * ! > >> > > >> schiffkey@cfl.rr.com=  > >>
 > >> ===== > >> ==========================o > >> Fbio dos Santos Cardoso  > >> OpenVMS System Manager  > >> Rio de Janeiro - Brazil > >> fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.bro > >> ==========================a > >>7 > >> __________________________________________________r > >> Do You Yahoo!?w5 > >> Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cupn" > >> http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:09:32 -0400o! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> L Subject: Re: US-NC Spanish Cobol VAX/VMS ACMS FMS Mailbox Programmer/Analyst' Message-ID: <3D171A0C.9F50B001@vcu.edu>1  E oww... oowwww......  I remember when I was just outta college, and my D little ole lady landlord had someone call, I answered the phone, andG just because I could not hear what he was saying, he practically cussed / me out because I had to keep asking him over...n   Michael Austin wrote:o >  > Jim Agnew wrote: > >yK > > hhmm.. I didn't know that Charlotte, NC was so Spanish language-wise...l > >e > > j. > >- > > Michael Austin wrote:B > > >B > > > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > > > > S > > > > In article <3D132BB1.2119BD44@vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> writes:eR > > > > > I hate to pick a nit, but if you're in the U.S.A., you came to a countryN > > > > > where English is the language.  If I move to Mexico, I'd *expect* to > > > > > learn Spanish... > > > >0F > > > > So Spanish is an unusual skill (for Charlotte North Carolina). > > >NH > > > Only if you want to order a burger at the local fast food chain...H > > > Charlotte is the second fastest growing Spanish-speaking area only > > > behind San Diego (IIRC). > > >. > > > >r< > > > > What is wrong with listing it as a job requirement ? > > > E > > > Nothing.  The individual must be able to communicate with plantaF > > > managers/users South of the {Texas} border.  (I have had a briefG > > > conversation with the recruiter - although I don't speak Spanish)o > > >s > > > >  > > >c > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > < > > > Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 1984= > > > First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163'= > > > Sr. Consultant            http://www.firstdbasource.comrK > > >                           http://www.firstdbasource.com/donation.htmln5 > > > 704-947-1089 (Office)     704-236-4377 (Mobile)e > 
 > True Story:  > C > My wife and son were waiting for me at the airport (Pre-9/11 when I > non-passengers could visit the restaurants etc) and ordered a burger at F > a well know fast-food establishment and the girl working the counterH > (who also happened to be a manager) took 3-4 minutes explaining to theE > cook that it was with "Ketchup-only", because the cook didn't speak0/ > English and the manager didn't speak Spanish.s >  > --
 > Regards, > 8 > Michael Austin            OpenVMS User since June 19849 > First DBA Source, Inc.    Registered Linux User #261163R9 > Sr. Consultant            http://www.firstdbasource.comaG >                           http://www.firstdbasource.com/donation.htmlc1 > 704-947-1089 (Office)     704-236-4377 (Mobile)    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:57:21 -0400n* From: "Stanley F. Quayle" <stan@stanq.com>8 Subject: Re: Using old Bookreader files with Windows BNU. Message-ID: <3D16DEF1.31446.EAA494C@localhost>  & On 22 Jun 2002, at 0:15, dooley wrote:C > If I "double-click" on .bkb files then it launches the bookreadero6 > that is in ODL, and I can read individual documents.  # Thanks!  That's 99% of what I need!e  E > I havn't worked out how to incorporate them into the odl structure.t: > When I try to open bookshelf files (.bks) I get an error  B The ODL manual documents a completely different structure for the B bookshelf files.  That was the part I could find in the manuals...    
 --Stan Quaylec! President, Quayle Consulting Inc.o  
 ----------G Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671I1 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 = Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.comN   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:50:31 GMTg1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>e- Subject: Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd....? Message-ID: <b7mR8.148891$6m5.126572@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>   < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3D154FBF.8A5E0402@fsi.net...l > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > > @ > > "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message% > > news:3D14F812.1F112B86@fsi.net...c > >O > > >iG > > > I was thinking more in the line of friendly co-operation: provide I > > > advance releases of info., perhaps help defray the operating costs,e ...  > >a > > Yep, > >e > > >aF > > > I can tell you from experience that the owner of openvms.com wasK > > > approached, but the Q's interest quickly waned. I probably don't haveo to/ > > > say who to contact if you want more info.t > >tG > > Since I am a content provider to the site, I think I can handle theo contact 
 > > info. ;-}- >-/ > I trust we're not confusing .com and .org ...1  ( Oops... I meant .ORG. I stand corrected.   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2002 13:36:48 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)n- Subject: Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd...u+ Message-ID: <af779g$euq$7@info.cs.uofs.edu>l  + In article <3D13760C.72C31C66@caltech.edu>,r*  David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: |> "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: |> > i |> > rP |> > Nothing wrong, but HPQ seems to be pretty sensitive to such things. CertainP |> > people in the VMS marketing department were outraged when Ken Farmer set up |> > www.openvms.org.r |>  C |> Their stockholders should have been outraged that Compaq did not A |> own that address.  Not that such gross incompetence was at allb4 |> out of the ordinary for Q management.  Terms likeA |> "asleep at the switch" come to mind.  That HPQ has seen fit tow7 |> keep pretty much the lot of them certainly bodes ill  |> for HPQ's future.  A I don't believe that Compaq could "buy" that one.  They could not B meet the requirements for regeistration under the top level "org".? I would imagine they could enforce their trademark control over  anyone else who tried, however.a   bill   -- oJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   d   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2002 09:40:32 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen):- Subject: Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd...p3 Message-ID: <9raCG1Tu6lhN@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <af779g$euq$7@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:"- > In article <3D13760C.72C31C66@caltech.edu>,o, >  David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: > |> "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: > |> > h > |> > rR > |> > Nothing wrong, but HPQ seems to be pretty sensitive to such things. CertainR > |> > people in the VMS marketing department were outraged when Ken Farmer set up > |> > www.openvms.org.n > |>  E > |> Their stockholders should have been outraged that Compaq did not C > |> own that address.  Not that such gross incompetence was at allo6 > |> out of the ordinary for Q management.  Terms likeC > |> "asleep at the switch" come to mind.  That HPQ has seen fit toe9 > |> keep pretty much the lot of them certainly bodes ill  > |> for HPQ's future. > C > I don't believe that Compaq could "buy" that one.  They could notMD > meet the requirements for regeistration under the top level "org".   What requirements ?8   Enforced by whom ?  < Perhaps your are thinking of what the designers had in mind,* rather than what actually got implemented.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:54:36 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG - Subject: Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd...>0 Message-ID: <00A0FEF5.FE66F973@SendSpamHere.ORG>  _ In article <af779g$euq$7@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:y, >In article <3D13760C.72C31C66@caltech.edu>,+ > David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes:, >|> "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:e >|> >  >|> > Q >|> > Nothing wrong, but HPQ seems to be pretty sensitive to such things. CertainDQ >|> > people in the VMS marketing department were outraged when Ken Farmer set up9 >|> > www.openvms.org. >|> D >|> Their stockholders should have been outraged that Compaq did notB >|> own that address.  Not that such gross incompetence was at all5 >|> out of the ordinary for Q management.  Terms likecB >|> "asleep at the switch" come to mind.  That HPQ has seen fit to8 >|> keep pretty much the lot of them certainly bodes ill >|> for HPQ's future.e >pB >I don't believe that Compaq could "buy" that one.  They could notC >meet the requirements for regeistration under the top level "org".c@ >I would imagine they could enforce their trademark control over  >anyone else who tried, however.  A Hmm.  I dunno about that.  I own the .COM, .NET and .ORG versionsE of my domain name.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM=            =5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 2   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:29:10 GMTS1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>t- Subject: Re: VMS Marketing Volunteers, ctd...2. Message-ID: <9VGR8.139104$nZ3.58579@rwcrnsc53>  > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message% news:af779g$euq$7@info.cs.uofs.edu...S- > In article <3D13760C.72C31C66@caltech.edu>, , >  David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> writes: > |> "Terry C. Shannon" wrote: > |> > > |> >J > |> > Nothing wrong, but HPQ seems to be pretty sensitive to such things. CertaineK > |> > people in the VMS marketing department were outraged when Ken Farmere set up > |> > www.openvms.org.l > |>E > |> Their stockholders should have been outraged that Compaq did not6C > |> own that address.  Not that such gross incompetence was at allt6 > |> out of the ordinary for Q management.  Terms likeC > |> "asleep at the switch" come to mind.  That HPQ has seen fit toB9 > |> keep pretty much the lot of them certainly bodes illH > |> for HPQ's future. >)C > I don't believe that Compaq could "buy" that one.  They could notuD > meet the requirements for regeistration under the top level "org".A > I would imagine they could enforce their trademark control overd! > anyone else who tried, however.   G I would imagine you are correct, but to what end? Plenty of unfavorableC' publicity is all that comes to my mind.d   ------------------------------    Date: 24 Jun 2002 08:29:17 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)iH Subject: Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A3 Message-ID: <zRxjczateBOG@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  K In article <3D132C3F.718352F7@vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> writes:uJ > I have the Decus Albert, the VAX cheshire cat.  got it from someone here# > on this group once upon a time...2  H    You have Albert?  Getting a bit old for a cat, isn't he?  Or did you "    mean you have his picture?  8-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 09:41:54 -0400a! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>oH Subject: Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A' Message-ID: <3D1721A2.F65B8ADE@vcu.edu>@  D yup.. he sleeps a lot nowadays....  I forgot who gave him to me, and) it's bugging me up the wall, dunno why...    Bob Koehler wrote: > M > In article <3D132C3F.718352F7@vcu.edu>, Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> writes:nL > > I have the Decus Albert, the VAX cheshire cat.  got it from someone here% > > on this group once upon a time...  > I >    You have Albert?  Getting a bit old for a cat, isn't he?  Or did youw$ >    mean you have his picture?  8-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 10:02:27 +0200 < From: "Martin Vorlaender" <martin.vorlaender@pdv-systeme.de>Q Subject: Re: VMS MARKETING VOLUNTEERS, LTD. Biz Card Example ( was Re: A Proposalo4 Message-ID: <af6jn1$bq51p$1@ID-56200.news.dfncis.de>  9 <lbohan@spamless..dbc.com> wrote [about the VMS shark]...u/ > anyway, following the OpenVMS Graphics link,  9 > on the 2nd page was one of my favorite VMS shark logos,f* > (an electronic/mechanical sort of shark) > 1 > http://dbcbeta.dbc.com/LBohan/tn_vmsshark20.jpgo/ > http://208.240.76.50/LBohan/tn_vmsshark20.jpg' > ) > (wish I could find a full-sized copy;  o/ >  I never did get round to asking John myself)n  A That shark is art by Sorayama Hajime. I put a 713x675 JPG versionr> up at http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/hajime_shark.jpg   cu,e   Martin --  I One OS to rule them all       | Martin Vorlaender    VMS & WNT programmerl7 One OS to find them           | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de I One OS to bring them all      |  http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/i> And in the Darkness bind them.| home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------   Date: 24 Jun 2002 09:00:29 GMT* From: psy@psy.bronderslev.dk (Bent Wagner) Subject: WASD startup problems3 Message-ID: <slrnahds00.4qr.psy@psy.bronderslev.dk>R   Hi all.   " I have a problem starting up WASD.  & I am using this script to start it up:    
 WEB-START.COM     $ mount dka0: web-disk web-disk:# $ ht_root :== "vax$dka0:[ht_root.]"s $ WASD_HTTPD_GMT :== "+1"o" $ @DKA0:[HT_ROOT.LOCAL]STARTUP.COM $! run ht_exe:httpd>  3 I think the STARTUP.COM is supposed to start it up,> but it does not.  4 I have commented out the last line, because it takes5 over the console, and if i log out, the process dies.>  6 The ht_exe:httpd image needs to run in the background,& and perhaps all of WEB-START.COM does.  : Right now i start the WEB-START.COM from SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM
 like this:  " @SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]WEB-START.COM  * I have tried SPAWN, but had no luck there.  = My VMS is very rusty, so if you need more info please say so.n   Thanks.A   Bent Wagner    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:57:23 +0200.- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>n" Subject: Re: WASD startup problems' Message-ID: <3D173354.88E89EE1@Free.fr>.  0 This is what you need in your systartup_vms.com:  , $ @DKA0:[HT_ROOT.LOCAL]STARTUP WASD_DECNET=1  = and ht_root is a concealed logical name, not a global symbol:>  . $ def/sys/tran=con ht_root vax$dka0:[ht_root.]   D.   Bent Wagner wrote: > 	 > Hi all.> > $ > I have a problem starting up WASD. > ( > I am using this script to start it up: >  > WEB-START.COMr > " > $ mount dka0: web-disk web-disk:% > $ ht_root :== "vax$dka0:[ht_root.]"  > $ WASD_HTTPD_GMT :== "+1"i$ > $ @DKA0:[HT_ROOT.LOCAL]STARTUP.COM > $! run ht_exe:httpdy > 5 > I think the STARTUP.COM is supposed to start it up,  > but it does not. > 6 > I have commented out the last line, because it takes7 > over the console, and if i log out, the process dies.r > 8 > The ht_exe:httpd image needs to run in the background,( > and perhaps all of WEB-START.COM does. > < > Right now i start the WEB-START.COM from SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM > like this: > $ > @SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]WEB-START.COM > , > I have tried SPAWN, but had no luck there. > ? > My VMS is very rusty, so if you need more info please say so.  > 	 > Thanks.  > 
 > Bent Wagner>   -- e2   ------------------------------------------------2 MORANDI Consultants  http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr0   19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.2 Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax: +33 (0)5 6154 19282 OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans2 --------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:05:46 +0200e2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>" Subject: Re: WASD startup problemsG Message-ID: <3d17354c$0$18068$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>   = "Bent Wagner" <psy@psy.bronderslev.dk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag - news:slrnahds00.4qr.psy@psy.bronderslev.dk...o	 > Hi all.  >>$ > I have a problem starting up WASD. >r( > I am using this script to start it up: >a >d > WEB-START.COMd >i" > $ mount dka0: web-disk web-disk:% > $ ht_root :== "vax$dka0:[ht_root.]"  > $ WASD_HTTPD_GMT :== "+1" $ > $ @DKA0:[HT_ROOT.LOCAL]STARTUP.COM > $! run ht_exe:httpd= >=5 > I think the STARTUP.COM is supposed to start it up,  > but it does not. >e6 > I have commented out the last line, because it takes7 > over the console, and if i log out, the process dies._ >_8 > The ht_exe:httpd image needs to run in the background,( > and perhaps all of WEB-START.COM does. >0< > Right now i start the WEB-START.COM from SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM > like this: >-$ > @SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]WEB-START.COM >3, > I have tried SPAWN, but had no luck there. >j? > My VMS is very rusty, so if you need more info please say so.A >y	 > Thanks.- > 
 > Bent Wagner0 >v   Hi!1  I Not being familiar with WASD I would nevertheless indicate that you mountiI the disk private. You should mount it systemwide to allow other processesc& (created during startup) to access it.J In addition I would suggest, that you remove the comment mark and, insteadA of starting the procedure interactively, submit it to one of yourI
 batch-queues.a   Ren   ------------------------------  # Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:52:23 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>:5 Subject: Re: What kind of morons work at the FDA now?d> Message-ID: <X8mR8.123669$R61.42744@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message * news:87660ajidq.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com.... > "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> writes: > > > > "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in message > >rL news:92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C553@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us. .. > C > > > How long were new VAXes available after Alpha was introduced?nB > > > Customers who were on the VAX platform had plenty of time toF > > > transition to Alpha because VAX EOL was not announced until longH > > > after Alpha was available, and had begun to establish credibility. > E > > True. On the other hand, processor development on VAX pretty much : > > stopped dead.  At least Alpha gets another generation. >aG > The existance of the NVAX, NVAX+, NVAX5 and NVAX5+ make your statment  > very suspect.   I Interestingly, CMOS VAX CPU performance increased a phenomenal 13x over arK period of 39 months. (CVAX I at 2.7 VUPs though NVAX5+ at ~40 VUPS). Not anu insignificant accomplishment.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 21:54:24 GMT91 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>oE Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases1. Message-ID: <kgNQ8.104778$nZ3.43648@rwcrnsc53>  # "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" > <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message* news:aeuq85$s6h$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... >3 >m > Atlant Schmidt wrote:  >o > > Keith Parris wrote:h > >l > >e@ > >>"Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message* news:<DTbQ8.262316$cQ3.11915@sccrnsc01>... > >>D > >>>VMS gross revenue actually amounts to no more than 10 times the! > >>>aforementioned $135M figute.R > >>> F > >>This sounds way too low compared with the other figures we've been
 > >>given.   Yes it does.  > VMS revenues certainly haven't dropped off by 2/3 since we gotJ > >>the $4B figure.  Maybe if this figure omits the $2B figure in ServicesG > >>revenue alone for VMS, it could be within the realm of possibility.i  G The fabled $4B figure included systems, add-ons, apps, upgrades, and of4J course Services. Since Services and the other organizations count the sameK revenue, the $4B figure would represent double- or triple-counting the same % dollars in various different buckets.T    K One could always do the math: estimate the number of AlphaServers sold lasttK year (well under 100K, methinks), estimate the average CPU count (let's sayrK 5 or so), estimate the revenue accruing from said servers, etc. Sorry, thath $4B dog won't hunt.t  ? But a $1.25B dog with >50 percent margins can hunt pretty well.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:18:39 +0100+U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>4E Subject: Re: Why porting apps to VMS isn't very helpful in most cases-0 Message-ID: <af765h$irv$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk wrote:   T > In article <3D11911A.94B22C21@spam.not>, Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> writes: > ! >>david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk wrote:c >>U >>>In article <3D01D48B.7D519CD2@spam.not>, Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not> writes:3 >>>B3 >>>>Suggestions to port apps developed on other OSs ) >>>>come up in this NG from time to time.m >>>>9 >>>>To satisfy VMS users it is normally not sufficient toc9 >>>>simply port apps while not really integrating it intoi5 >>>>VMS. A decent port would make use of specific VMS 6 >>>>features where appropriate like CDL with carefully9 >>>>chosen parameter types (and qualifier names) that fite6 >>>>in and like using RMS instead of flat/stream files8 >>>>and with standard installation procedures like PCSI. >>>> >>>>I >>>Come off it. 90+% of public domain software ported to VMS doesn't meete% >>>your criteria for a "Decent port".hJ >>>They still work and I am grateful for them. I think most VMS users wantI >>>to see the apps - they don't really care that much about niceties such-' >>>as using the CDL, PCSI or VMSINSTAL.3 >>>G >>Why not use it under UNIX? >> >> > ( > Why is any software ported to any OS ?I > Why do people port software developed under solaris to AIX, Linux etc ?c >      Commecial or PD.  > Commercial because the ISV can see a market for their software> which justifies the cost of porting to and then supporting the$ software product on the OS platform.  = So volume is important, but so is having facilies within youro? OS that make it easy for people to do the port and then supportT the results.  = PD, ditto except that cost should be translated into time andd9 there is no concept of potential revenue opportunity justt more users.a    O > An operating system is just a big paperweight which uses a lot of electricitya& > if it doesn't have any applications.M > Some products which get ported are "nice to haves". Other are essential forCE > a modern OS. Others are essential for communication with other OSs. I > Some fall into all three of these categories at diffent points in time.e > 9 > SSH for instance was a "nice to have" a few years back.aP > Since SSH use has become widespread on other platforms it is now required by a9 > lot of organisations for communication between systems.oP > Unless something changes in the near future SSH will become a feature required > for any modern OS. >      As will IPv6 etc etc etc.-    D > SSH is far from unique the same process happened with web servers. >     2 And its now happening with Apps Servers and JVM's.    Q > Now you could say that certain applications don't need to be ported to VMS thatqE > you can use them on other systems - your why not use it under UNIX.s > K > We have seen where this leads. This was exactly the argument which led toc& > VMS being consigned to the high-end.B > Windows controls the desktop so why have any office apps on VMS.    9 Part of the problem is that software stacks are becomminge6 more and more complex, backend servers in the old days7 just used to run a DBMS if that. Now servers run, DBMS,k4 Web, Apps, Crypto etc, loose one of these peices and2 someone else picks up the server business from you; because customers are reluctant to deal with the complexity.7 of having one vendor for DBMS, one for Web etc when theT& alternative is one vendor for the lot.    $ > Why have any office apps on UNIX ?% > Everybody should be using Word.  :)' >e    , Good thing too mono-cultures are bad news in	 this casee  ) In the country of the windows desktop theh hacker is king..   Regardsq Andrew Harrisonn   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:47:14 -0000m- From: wspencer@ap.nospam.org (Warren Spencer). Subject: Re: xml and all that-5 Message-ID: <923786FE5warrenspencer1977@216.168.3.30>m  - arne.vajhoej@gtech.com (Arne Vajhj) wrote inl <3CF779C0.8D7DEBCF@gtech.com>: A  > >You can download Xerces and Xalan as both C/C++ and Java from >the Compaq site.t   I visited this site:  H http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/xml/Requirements.html  E And found xalan for Java and C++, but not C.  For those of us with C |G applications needing an XML upgrade, are there any C-based XML parsers?o   ws   --     Warren Spencer' Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)  The Associated Press  < ** Time flies like an arrow.  Fruit flies like a bananna. **   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:18:33 GMTt! From: Karl Puder <kpuder@aol.com>t Subject: Re: xml and all thato' Message-ID: <3D175300.66A880ED@aol.com>   
 Greetings:  J The code for VMS was produced by porting the code found at apache.org. YouL could look there or ask the contact addresses there, but I see no C code forH XML. There may be other sources for OpenSource XML sources, but I do not know of any.       :Karl Puder.     Software Engineer      OpenVMS XML, et al.m   Warren Spencer wrote:   / > arne.vajhoej@gtech.com (Arne Vajhj) wrote int  > <3CF779C0.8D7DEBCF@gtech.com>: >i@ > >You can download Xerces and Xalan as both C/C++ and Java from > >the Compaq site.V >a > I visited this site: > J > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/xml/Requirements.html >-F > And found xalan for Java and C++, but not C.  For those of us with CI > applications needing an XML upgrade, are there any C-based XML parsers?, >d > ws >s > -- >9 > Warren Spencer) > Senior Software Engineer (not a writer)r > The Associated Press >n> > ** Time flies like an arrow.  Fruit flies like a bananna. **   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.345 ************************