1 INFO-VAX	Tue, 12 Mar 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 140       Contents:* Re: Another big block votes against merger* Re: Another big block votes against merger* Re: Another big block votes against merger* Re: Another big block votes against merger* Re: Another big block votes against merger* Re: Another big block votes against merger* Re: Another big block votes against merger* Re: Another big block votes against merger* Re: Another big block votes against merger* Re: Another big block votes against merger* Re: Another big block votes against merger* Re: Another big block votes against merger CD-R on VMS system Re: CD-R on VMS system> Current NOTES availability status ?, was: RE: VMS conferencing! Re: Display settings in VMS Motif  DLT Degausser / Bulk Eraser  RE: DLT Degausser / Bulk Eraser  RE: DLT Degausser / Bulk Eraser  RE: DLT Degausser / Bulk Eraser ( Re: FORTRAN (was: Re: R.I.P. OpenVMS...)( Re: FORTRAN (was: Re: R.I.P. OpenVMS...)3 hobbyist (ISDN) VMS internet connectivity in Europe 7 Re: hobbyist (ISDN) VMS internet connectivity in Europe 7 Re: hobbyist (ISDN) VMS internet connectivity in Europe 5 How can I allow a captive user to change password ... 9 Re: How can I allow a captive user to change password ... ' Re: HP Unix servers plunge below $1,000 ' Re: HP Unix servers plunge below $1,000 - Re: IBM disk drives only work for 8 hours ... - Re: IBM disk drives only work for 8 hours ... / Re: IBM's ESS/Shark as storage for VMS systems?  If PCs were like regierators, JOB OPENING in  NYC : Sr. Programmer Analyst( Re: linking port with service on OpenVMS+ Re: Microsoft Curries Favor With Undergrads " Re: OpenVMS Mail and Exchange 2000O Re: Paul Vixie [was Re: above.net condones spam, spamware,   spamvertisements ] ! PC monitor attached to RGB output % Re: PC monitor attached to RGB output % Re: PC monitor attached to RGB output % RE: PC monitor attached to RGB output % RE: PC monitor attached to RGB output % RE: PC monitor attached to RGB output % RE: PC monitor attached to RGB output % RE: PC monitor attached to RGB output < Re: R.I.P. OpenVMS - ISS Recommends That H-P Holders Vote in RE: Reduced SW RAID-5  Re: Reduced SW RAID-5 - Re: sending all data as out-of-band in TCP/IP  Re: Sound on alpha/VMS? L Re: TANSTAAFL (was Re: Viability of a Commercial ISO-9960 formatter for VMS) txt2pdf 5.6  Re: unzip installation Re: unzip installation Re: VFC File Problem Re: VFC File Problem8 Re: Viability of a Commercial ISO-9960 formatter for VMS Re: VMS conferencing software. Re: VMS conferencing software. RE: VMS conferencing software. Re: VMS sys admin salaries# Re: What return codes mean success? , Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?, Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?, Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?, Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?, Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?, Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?, RE: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?, Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?, Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ RE: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's@ Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's Re: [OT] Rousseau was to blame@ Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salaries@ Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salaries@ Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salaries@ Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salaries@ Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salaries@ Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salaries@ Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salaries@ Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salaries  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 07:55:21 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against merger 3 Message-ID: <O+FuQS4Dkmgy@eisner.encompasserve.org>   h In article <hYbj8.346116$Aw2.28412081@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, bugs@pu.net (Mark Hittinger) writes:J > Just a few minutes ago Wells Fargo announced they would vote against theH > merger.  They hold 3% apparently.  Maybe it won't be as close as I was > expecting it to be.   F    It's now looking about 20% against, 80% for.  Not what carly wants,*    but not what Mr. Hewlett wants, either.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2002 15:00:52 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) 3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against merger , Message-ID: <a6l574$2v9d$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  3 In article <O+FuQS4Dkmgy@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:k |> In article <hYbj8.346116$Aw2.28412081@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, bugs@pu.net (Mark Hittinger) writes: M |> > Just a few minutes ago Wells Fargo announced they would vote against the K |> > merger.  They hold 3% apparently.  Maybe it won't be as close as I was  |> > expecting it to be. |>  I |>    It's now looking about 20% against, 80% for.  Not what carly wants, - |>    but not what Mr. Hewlett wants, either.   G So, is the assumption anyone who doesn't speak up is voting in favor of J the merger??  I surely haven't heard a positive yes from 80% in any publicH outlet up to now.  And where does one find the actual rules??  I thoughtB early on people were saying that a simple majority was not enough.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:42:39 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> 3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against merger / Message-ID: <3eqj8.4051$lM.3975@news2.bloor.is>   > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message& news:a6l574$2v9d$1@info.cs.uofs.edu... > I > So, is the assumption anyone who doesn't speak up is voting in favor of L > the merger??  I surely haven't heard a positive yes from 80% in any publicJ > outlet up to now.  And where does one find the actual rules??  I thoughtD > early on people were saying that a simple majority was not enough. >   J Sometime proxy statements include some very tiny fine print that says, "IfL you do not return your proxy your shares will be deemed to be voted in favorL of the resolutions proposed by management."  Thus, by inaction, shareholders9 can further the self-aggrandizing  actions of management.   J That is why it is SO important to return your proxy with your vote clearly indicated on it.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:09:00 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against merger C Message-ID: <LCqj8.202208$pN4.11557740@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message& news:a6l574$2v9d$1@info.cs.uofs.edu...5 > In article <O+FuQS4Dkmgy@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 2 >  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:H > |> In article <hYbj8.346116$Aw2.28412081@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,$ bugs@pu.net (Mark Hittinger) writes:K > |> > Just a few minutes ago Wells Fargo announced they would vote against  the I > |> > merger.  They hold 3% apparently.  Maybe it won't be as close as I  was  > |> > expecting it to be. > |>K > |>    It's now looking about 20% against, 80% for.  Not what carly wants, / > |>    but not what Mr. Hewlett wants, either.  > I > So, is the assumption anyone who doesn't speak up is voting in favor of  > the merger??  8 Bob seems to be having difficulty with arithmetic today.  >   I surely haven't heard a positive yes from 80% in any publicJ > outlet up to now.  And where does one find the actual rules??  I thoughtD > early on people were saying that a simple majority was not enough.  F The early assertion I remember was that HP needed a simple majority ofG *shares* (not just voted shares) in favor, and that unvoted shares thus F effectively voted against - but I don't know where to find the 'actualK rules'.  And yes, as far as announced intentions go, I think Hewlett's camp C is well in the lead, but that does leave the vast majority still in 	 question.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:17:53 GMT 0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against merger 7 Message-ID: <3c8e3839.63786610@proxy.news.easynews.com>   F On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:42:39 GMT, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:  K >Sometime proxy statements include some very tiny fine print that says, "If M >you do not return your proxy your shares will be deemed to be voted in favor M >of the resolutions proposed by management."  Thus, by inaction, shareholders : >can further the self-aggrandizing  actions of management. > K >That is why it is SO important to return your proxy with your vote clearly  >indicated on it.   F I don't think that's lega.  If you don't return a proxy card and don'tA show up at the shareholder's meeting, what happens is your shares E simply aren't voted at all.  Management can't vote your shares unless ? you delegate that authority to them (which is what a proxy is).   C The statement at the bottom of a proxy card says that if you return ? your proxy, management will vote however it wishes on items you A don't explicitly vote on the card, and on any other business that  might come up at the meeting. 
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 11:46:56 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against merger 3 Message-ID: <TCcgCrynbj33@eisner.encompasserve.org>   p In article <LCqj8.202208$pN4.11557740@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: > @ > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message  @ >   I surely haven't heard a positive yes from 80% in any publicK >> outlet up to now.  And where does one find the actual rules??  I thought E >> early on people were saying that a simple majority was not enough.  > H > The early assertion I remember was that HP needed a simple majority ofI > *shares* (not just voted shares) in favor, and that unvoted shares thus  > effectively voted against     	Nope... and here are the rules:  J http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/47217/000101287002000378/dex992.txt  N THIS PROXY WILL BE VOTED AS SPECIFIED. IF NO SPECIFICATION IS MADE, THIS PROXYO WILL BE VOTED "FOR" THE PROPOSAL TO APPROVE AND ADOPT THE AGREEMENT AND PLAN OF L REORGANIZATION AMONG HEWLETT-PACKARD COMPANY, HELOISE MERGER CORPORATION AND3 COMPAQ AND APPROVE THE MERGER CONTEMPLATED THEREBY.    	Beauty, eh?   				Rob    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 11:52:19 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against merger 3 Message-ID: <jWJ+3lDbi$7Q@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <TCcgCrynbj33@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes: r > In article <LCqj8.202208$pN4.11557740@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes: >>  A >> "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message  > A >>   I surely haven't heard a positive yes from 80% in any public L >>> outlet up to now.  And where does one find the actual rules??  I thoughtF >>> early on people were saying that a simple majority was not enough. >>  I >> The early assertion I remember was that HP needed a simple majority of J >> *shares* (not just voted shares) in favor, and that unvoted shares thus >> effectively voted against >    	Ooops!  That was Compaq!   J http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/47217/000101287002000378/dex991.txt  N WHEN PROPERLY EXECUTED, THIS PROXY WILL BE VOTED IN THE MANNER DIRECTED HEREINJ BY THE UNDERSIGNED SHAREOWNER. IF NO DIRECTION IS MADE, THIS PROXY WILL BEI VOTED FOR THE ABOVE-DESCRIBED PROPOSAL AND IN THE DISCRETION OF THE PROXY H HOLDERS UPON SUCH OTHER BUSINESS AS MAY PROPERLY COME BEFORE THE SPECIAL3 MEETING OR ANY ADJOURNMENT OR POSTPONEMENT THEREOF.   > 	Hard to tell if that means all unreturned proxies are assumed
 	to be "for".    				Rob     " > 	Nope... and here are the rules: > L > http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/47217/000101287002000378/dex992.txt > P > THIS PROXY WILL BE VOTED AS SPECIFIED. IF NO SPECIFICATION IS MADE, THIS PROXYQ > WILL BE VOTED "FOR" THE PROPOSAL TO APPROVE AND ADOPT THE AGREEMENT AND PLAN OF N > REORGANIZATION AMONG HEWLETT-PACKARD COMPANY, HELOISE MERGER CORPORATION AND5 > COMPAQ AND APPROVE THE MERGER CONTEMPLATED THEREBY.  >  > 	Beauty, eh? > 	 > 				Rob  >    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 12:01:41 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) 3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against merger 3 Message-ID: <+mBLe8L1Ugkc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   a In article <jWJ+3lDbi$7Q@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes: c > In article <TCcgCrynbj33@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes: s >> In article <LCqj8.202208$pN4.11557740@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  >>> B >>> "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message >>  B >>>   I surely haven't heard a positive yes from 80% in any publicM >>>> outlet up to now.  And where does one find the actual rules??  I thought G >>>> early on people were saying that a simple majority was not enough.  >>> J >>> The early assertion I remember was that HP needed a simple majority ofK >>> *shares* (not just voted shares) in favor, and that unvoted shares thus  >>> effectively voted against  >>   >    > 	Ooops!  That was Compaq!  > L > http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/47217/000101287002000378/dex991.txt > P > WHEN PROPERLY EXECUTED, THIS PROXY WILL BE VOTED IN THE MANNER DIRECTED HEREINL > BY THE UNDERSIGNED SHAREOWNER. IF NO DIRECTION IS MADE, THIS PROXY WILL BEK > VOTED FOR THE ABOVE-DESCRIBED PROPOSAL AND IN THE DISCRETION OF THE PROXY J > HOLDERS UPON SUCH OTHER BUSINESS AS MAY PROPERLY COME BEFORE THE SPECIAL5 > MEETING OR ANY ADJOURNMENT OR POSTPONEMENT THEREOF.  > @ > 	Hard to tell if that means all unreturned proxies are assumed > 	to be "for".     ; 	There is an amended version out there...  seems to suggest A 	that unreturned ballots count as yes, look at the added line(s):   J http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/47217/000101287002000387/dex991.txt  N WHEN PROPERLY EXECUTED, THIS PROXY WILL BE VOTED IN THE MANNER DIRECTED HEREINJ BY THE UNDERSIGNED SHAREOWNER. IF NO DIRECTION IS MADE, THIS PROXY WILL BEM VOTED FOR THE ABOVE-DESCRIBED PROPOSAL AND, WHETHER OR NOT DIRECTION IS MADE, M                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ M WILL BE VOTED IN THE DISCRETION OF THE PROXY HOLDERS UPON SUCH OTHER BUSINESS 4 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^E AS MAY PROPERLY COME BEFORE THE SPECIAL MEETING OR ANY ADJOURNMENT OR K POSTPONEMENT THEREOF. THE UNDERSIGNED HEREBY REVOKES ALL PROXIES PREVIOUSLY M GIVEN BY THE UNDERSIGNED TO VOTE AT THE SPECIAL MEETING OR ANY ADJOURNMENT OR  POSTPONEMENT THEREOF.    	Have to love that!    				Robm   > 	 > 				RobM >  > # >> 	Nope... and here are the rules:u >> gM >> http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/47217/000101287002000378/dex992.txtl >> aQ >> THIS PROXY WILL BE VOTED AS SPECIFIED. IF NO SPECIFICATION IS MADE, THIS PROXY>R >> WILL BE VOTED "FOR" THE PROPOSAL TO APPROVE AND ADOPT THE AGREEMENT AND PLAN OFO >> REORGANIZATION AMONG HEWLETT-PACKARD COMPANY, HELOISE MERGER CORPORATION ANDw6 >> COMPAQ AND APPROVE THE MERGER CONTEMPLATED THEREBY. >>   >> 	Beauty, eh?a >> d
 >> 				Rob >> i   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:12:25 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against mergeroC Message-ID: <dyrj8.356050$Aw2.29221116@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>s  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:jWJ+3lDbi$7Q@eisner.encompasserve.org...t   ...o   > Ooops!  That was Compaq! >eL > http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/47217/000101287002000378/dex991.txt >aI > WHEN PROPERLY EXECUTED, THIS PROXY WILL BE VOTED IN THE MANNER DIRECTEDt HEREINL > BY THE UNDERSIGNED SHAREOWNER. IF NO DIRECTION IS MADE, THIS PROXY WILL BEK > VOTED FOR THE ABOVE-DESCRIBED PROPOSAL AND IN THE DISCRETION OF THE PROXYpJ > HOLDERS UPON SUCH OTHER BUSINESS AS MAY PROPERLY COME BEFORE THE SPECIAL5 > MEETING OR ANY ADJOURNMENT OR POSTPONEMENT THEREOF.s >m? > Hard to tell if that means all unreturned proxies are assumedc > to be "for".  L Yes - just seems to say that a returned proxy that doesn't direct either wayH will be voted 'for', but doesn't say how unreturned proxy shares will be handled.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:22:21 -0500t- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> 3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against mergery2 Message-ID: <IHrj8.31408$X2.316144@nnrp1.uunet.ca>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagea= news:dyrj8.356050$Aw2.29221116@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...  >...J > will be voted 'for', but doesn't say how unreturned proxy shares will be
 > handled.  = According to the FAQ part of http://www.votenohpcompaq.com/ ;t   --- H If Hewlett-Packard stockholders holding shares of Hewlett-Packard commonJ stock in street name do not provide voting instructions, their shares willE not be voted and will therefore be considered broker "non-votes." ...   L Under the applicable rules of the New York Stock Exchange, brokers and otherK nominees are prohibited from giving a proxy to vote their customers' shares I with respect to the proposal to be voted on at the Special Meeting in they@ absence of instructions from their customers. Accordingly, if noI instructions are given, the shares will be considered broker "non-votes."wD For purposes of determining whether Hewlett-Packard has received theH affirmative vote of a majority of the votes cast at the Special Meeting,H broker "non-votes" and abstentions will not be considered votes cast and= will therefore have no effect on the outcome of the proposal.    -- Peter WeaverL Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer, nor theK company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it sub-contracts to.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:44:05 GMTcL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against merger 8 Message-ID: <00A0AD3B.4B363957@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  a In article <+mBLe8L1Ugkc@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:O >IK >http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/47217/000101287002000387/dex991.txt  >	O >WHEN PROPERLY EXECUTED, THIS PROXY WILL BE VOTED IN THE MANNER DIRECTED HEREINmK >BY THE UNDERSIGNED SHAREOWNER. IF NO DIRECTION IS MADE, THIS PROXY WILL BEsN >VOTED FOR THE ABOVE-DESCRIBED PROPOSAL AND, WHETHER OR NOT DIRECTION IS MADE,N >                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^N >WILL BE VOTED IN THE DISCRETION OF THE PROXY HOLDERS UPON SUCH OTHER BUSINESS5 >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ F >AS MAY PROPERLY COME BEFORE THE SPECIAL MEETING OR ANY ADJOURNMENT ORL >POSTPONEMENT THEREOF. THE UNDERSIGNED HEREBY REVOKES ALL PROXIES PREVIOUSLYN >GIVEN BY THE UNDERSIGNED TO VOTE AT THE SPECIAL MEETING OR ANY ADJOURNMENT OR >POSTPONEMENT THEREOF. >	Have to love that!    M I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about, but I'm under the impressionaM that if I'm a shareholder and don't return my proxy card at all, nobody holdseH my proxy and my share doesn't get voted.  If I sign and return the card C without checking a box that specifies how I want it voted, then the11 proxy-holder gets to vote it the way they please.V    M (Think of the logistics otherwise.  Nobody knows who's going to actually showIO up at the shareholders' meeting and vote their own shares.  If my not returningCO my card at all meant that you counted my shares among those I could vote, and IEO came to the meeting after all, how would my shares be deducted from the shares l you were voting?)    -- Alanp  O ===============================================================================e0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056.M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210 O ===============================================================================A   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 12:55:05 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)e3 Subject: Re: Another big block votes against merger-3 Message-ID: <z0DQbaToDGla@eisner.encompasserve.org>@   In article <00A0AD3B.4B363957@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes: c > In article <+mBLe8L1Ugkc@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:  >>L >>http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/47217/000101287002000387/dex991.txt >>P >>WHEN PROPERLY EXECUTED, THIS PROXY WILL BE VOTED IN THE MANNER DIRECTED HEREINL >>BY THE UNDERSIGNED SHAREOWNER. IF NO DIRECTION IS MADE, THIS PROXY WILL BEO >>VOTED FOR THE ABOVE-DESCRIBED PROPOSAL AND, WHETHER OR NOT DIRECTION IS MADE,dO >>                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^eO >>WILL BE VOTED IN THE DISCRETION OF THE PROXY HOLDERS UPON SUCH OTHER BUSINESSp6 >>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^G >>AS MAY PROPERLY COME BEFORE THE SPECIAL MEETING OR ANY ADJOURNMENT OR M >>POSTPONEMENT THEREOF. THE UNDERSIGNED HEREBY REVOKES ALL PROXIES PREVIOUSLYeO >>GIVEN BY THE UNDERSIGNED TO VOTE AT THE SPECIAL MEETING OR ANY ADJOURNMENT ORc >>POSTPONEMENT THEREOF.0 >>	Have to love that!t >  > O > I don't necessarily know what I'm talking about, but I'm under the impression O > that if I'm a shareholder and don't return my proxy card at all, nobody holdsOJ > my proxy and my share doesn't get voted.  If I sign and return the card E > without checking a box that specifies how I want it voted, then theL3 > proxy-holder gets to vote it the way they please.F >  > O > (Think of the logistics otherwise.  Nobody knows who's going to actually show Q > up at the shareholders' meeting and vote their own shares.  If my not returningdQ > my card at all meant that you counted my shares among those I could vote, and IdQ > came to the meeting after all, how would my shares be deducted from the shares W > you were voting?)A >   B 	Yeah... that appears to be the correct interpretation (given thatE 	other response too).  This allows them to count the few blank "whiteT) 	cards" that have been returned un-voted.    				Rob    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2002 09:15:10 GMT! From: William <wilby98@yahoo.com>L Subject: CD-R on VMS system * Message-ID: <a6kguu$7bo$1@news1.xs4all.nl>  . I am looking down the road a bit on whether it* might be feasible to add a CD-RW to my VMS, system. My first question is if it will work with my present hardware:      P To be clustered: VAXstation 3100, VAXstation 2000 (will probably not            1 be clustered, but be a dedicated disk formatter),M MicroVAX 3100-30, MicroVAX II.   ... and software:      3 VMS 5.5-2 (will hopefully upgrade to latest versionc- when get CD-ROM such as 'Toshiba  XM-6401B'.)o  1 So if I add a 'Plextor PlexWriter (SCSI) and use:s   CDRECORD LD062e  1 ... will I have a way to backup data onto CD-R's?c1 How about 'performance'? I am thinking it will be  slow, but how slow?n   -- i Bill
 Amsterdam, NL    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:32:06 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGe Subject: Re: CD-R on VMS system 0 Message-ID: <00A0AD18.17BB0029@SendSpamHere.ORG>  N In article <a6kguu$7bo$1@news1.xs4all.nl>, William <wilby98@yahoo.com> writes:/ >I am looking down the road a bit on whether ito+ >might be feasible to add a CD-RW to my VMSe- >system. My first question is if it will workk >with my present hardware: >    EQ >To be clustered: VAXstation 3100, VAXstation 2000 (will probably not            V2 >be clustered, but be a dedicated disk formatter), >MicroVAX 3100-30, MicroVAX II.  >e >.... and software:E >     4 >VMS 5.5-2 (will hopefully upgrade to latest version. >when get CD-ROM such as 'Toshiba  XM-6401B'.)  M You should be able to connect them up to the 3100s and expect some reasonablei level of success.l   >,2 >So if I add a 'Plextor PlexWriter (SCSI) and use: > 	 >CDRECORD  >LD062 >o3 >.... will I have a way to backup data onto CD-R's?o2 >How about 'performance'? I am thinking it will be >slow, but how slow?  L Yes. You need enough room on a drive to create the LD container file (~700MBL for a full CD).  Create a pseudo disk (LD).  Initialize and mount it.  Then,M copy your files to the LD.  This is a fairly fast process.  When you have allaM of the files you want to "burn" to the CD, dismount the LD and disconnect it.rK Then, use CDRECORD to "burn" the LD's container to the CD.  Depending upon tM the speed of the CDR drive, this can take anywhere from about an hour to justtM a few minutes.  Beware that the 3100 is not a fast box and CDR burners suffertL problems from what is known as "buffer under-run".  That is where the systemM supplying data for the "burn" cannot fill the CDR's buffer as fast as the CDRaL reads and burns it.  Also, activities which can cause periods of data inact-3 ivity on the bus feeding the CDR should be avoided.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             lJ   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbesw   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 12:54:09 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)G Subject: Current NOTES availability status ?, was: RE: VMS conferencinge3 Message-ID: <dih$xVRfXfuX@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  Z In article <0033000055982486000002L062*@MHS>, WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> writes:5 > =0ADidn't NOTES get put on one of the Freeware CDs?u >  > WWWebb >   H No, it's not on the V4 or V5 CD's, although there is a binary kit on the Hobbyist CD.  F What is the current status of NOTES anyway ? Is it still available for" sale, or is it a retired product ?  F If it's retired, is the source kit available for it anywhere (and BTW,* what percentage of it is written in TPU) ?   Simon.   -- OB Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       + Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:26:31 +0100Y From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>* Subject: Re: Display settings in VMS Motif& Message-ID: <3C8DADA7.6030808@home.nl>   Thanks Hoff !!  ! This entry answers all questions.b  F However just a small remark. I use the Javascript version of FAQ, and G that will let the entry pop-up in a separate window. But I can't print eI from that window ... (I'm using Netscape 6.2). Maybe a small improvement Y0 is possible that wil generate a normal window ?.   Regards,   Dirk   Hoff Hoffman wrote:b  H >In article <3C87EAE6.3020608@home.nl>, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes:) >:I have a powerstorm 4D20 graphics card.a > F >  The PowerStorm 4D20 *switch* settings are in Ask The Wizard (2041). >UO > ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> ----------------------------- O >      For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com     O > --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------aM >   Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.comO >U   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:49:22 -0500l- From: "Todd Nelson" <toddnelson_@hotmail.com> $ Subject: DLT Degausser / Bulk Eraser) Message-ID: <3c8e0761$1_1@news7.fast.net>2   Greetings Everyone.0  H I am looking into purchasing a Degausser / Bulk Eraser that'll work with DLT, SDLT, and 8mm media.   G Does anyone have experience with "low volume" (cheaper) degaussers that4 would care to share?  J Manufacturer information; Reseller Information; etc; would all be helpful.   Thanks,W   Todd   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:29:51 -0500y* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>( Subject: RE: DLT Degausser / Bulk Eraser- Message-ID: <0033000056065875000002L052*@MHS>t  A =0AI remember having to take a boxcutter and cut up 9-track tapes-0 into short pieces to keep the DP auditors happy.  > (Not as bad as the story a co-worker once told about having to? dissolve disk platters in acid while in the military but that'sf another medium altogether.)<  > I have a zero-cost solution if you're in a good-sized building* and not afraid of things electrical  :^) -  @ Ask your electricians if there's a stepdown transformer anywhere? in your building; frequently these devices emit a strong enoughn@ magnetic field to erase a tape enough to render it unreadable to your everyday tape drive.b  : Just set the tape down on top of it and that should do it.  > It might not satisfy the DOD's requirements for data security,% but I've used it before successfully.   A It just occurred to me that the transformer in a good-sized powern@ supply might do it too but I've never tried degaussing with one.     WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETt% Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 8:52 AMtB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET$ Subject: DLT Degausser / Bulk Eraser     Greetings Everyone.l  H I am looking into purchasing a Degausser / Bulk Eraser that'll work wit= h  DLT, SDLT, and 8mm media.n  H Does anyone have experience with "low volume" (cheaper) degaussers that=   would care to share?  H Manufacturer information; Reseller Information; etc; would all be helpf= ul.o   Thanks,o   Todd=a   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:59:05 GMT F From: lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman)( Subject: RE: DLT Degausser / Bulk Eraser2 Message-ID: <dBpj8.874$fL6.20614@news.cpqcorp.net>  ? A well-designed transformer will keep most, if not all, of it'sr= magnetic field 'inside'.  After all, that's where it does thei
 most good.  < I have a hand-held Nortronics (I think that's the name) bulk: tape eraser.  It wipes all kinds of audio tapes very well.: It will wipe diskettes (5  and 3  inch) easily.  It will9 erase VHS video cassettes if you pass it over both sides.n: It will erase many other kinds of magnetic media.  I don't5 remember trying it on an open-reel 9 track drive, butz9 considering when that media was developed, I would expecta/ the bulk eraser to wipe one with no difficulty.n  9 It won't erase a TK70 casette from the outside.  In order,: to "reset" the pattern at the beginning of a tape that had: been initialized in a TK50 drive, I had to work all of the7 latches so I could pull the header out of the drive ands9 put the bulk eraser in contact with the tape.  It manageds7 to "mess up" the pattern enough so the TK70 drive wouldd re-initialize the tape.S  9 Newer DLT tapes have media which require an even strongero8 field to change the magnetic state.  I don't think there6 are any hand-held units that will erase one while it's inside it's case..  : There are "table top" bulk erasers that produce a stronger< field.  One might be able to erase DLT tapes.  I don't think6 anything you can get at the local audiofile store will9 erase a DLT tape while it's in it's cassette: you'll have 6 to get something specifically built to do the erasure.  ; To give you some idea how strong a field is needed to eraseT: some tapes: I did once modify a small power transformer to9 erase audio cassette tapes.  It was strong enough to wipe-9 a conventional ferrite tape, but would not erase a chrome2: tape.  I also have a large degaussing loop that is used to> degauss color CRTs when the internal loop isn't strong enough.: You can see it's effect on a CRT from a foot or more away.@ You can pass a VHS cassette tape through the loop several times,? and hold it next to the loop for several seconds, and you won'tm; see any significant effect on the recorded picture when you0? play it back (there may well be some degradation, but it's veryY< hard to see).  My hand held build eraser can completely wipe* a VHS cassette, but it can't erase a TK50.   -- O(  B. Z. Lederman   Personal Opinions Only  8  Posting to a News group does NOT give anyone permission8  to send me advertising by E-mail or put me on a mailing  list of any kind.  5  Please remove the "DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL" if you have ae5  legitimate reason to E-mail a response to this post.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 10:45:28 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)t( Subject: RE: DLT Degausser / Bulk Eraser3 Message-ID: <dFAxuGsIQM7a@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  { In article <dBpj8.874$fL6.20614@news.cpqcorp.net>, lederman@star.enet.dec.DISABLE-JUNK-EMAIL.com (Bart Z. Lederman) writes:kA > A well-designed transformer will keep most, if not all, of it'sn? > magnetic field 'inside'.  After all, that's where it does the  > most good.  > My school radio station solved that problem by cutting off one@ side of the metal core (leaving the winding intact) so the field
 "escaped".   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:47:31 -0500f+ From: Steve Lionel <Steve.Lionel@intel.com>o1 Subject: Re: FORTRAN (was: Re: R.I.P. OpenVMS...)o8 Message-ID: <935s8ugjg4d0tjqn65fjd16sbp6rre4dga@4ax.com>  8 On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:33:37 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbig+ <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:o  G >> Check your tea-leaves again. The last significant update for FORTRAN  >> ships this month. t >rF >Fortran 77 or Fortran 95?  If the former, we should be happy that 25 I >years later it is still supported.  Fortran 90 is 12 years old, Fortran i >95 is 7 years old.e >vI >The language (F77) hasn't been evolving at all since 1990.  The compilereC >is mature.  I would consider it a bad sign if the last significant  >update were still to come!   E You're mistaken - the language continues to evolve - a "Fortran 2000"nF (more like 2004) revision will add lots of new features, some of which0 have already made their way into Compaq Fortran.  F It is true that Compaq Fortran 7.5 for OpenVMS Alpha is the last majorA release for that platform, but Fortran development continues at a D furious pace and there will be a Compaq Fortran for OpenVMS Itanium.       Steve Lionel Compaq Fortran Engineering Intel Corporationn
 Nashua, NH  . Compaq Fortran - http://www.compaq.com/fortranK Intel Fortran - http://developer.intel.com/software/products/compilers/f50/<   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:11:01 +0100 (MET)t9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>11 Subject: Re: FORTRAN (was: Re: R.I.P. OpenVMS...)U; Message-ID: <01KFA1SOK8LK8ZOX9C@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   K > >The language (F77) hasn't been evolving at all since 1990.  The compilerVE > >is mature.  I would consider it a bad sign if the last significantM > >update were still to come!  > G > You're mistaken - the language continues to evolve - a "Fortran 2000"IH > (more like 2004) revision will add lots of new features, some of which2 > have already made their way into Compaq Fortran.  I Misunderstanding: Fortran 77 isn't evolving, thus the lack of updates to OF the Fortran 77 compiler should be no cause for alarm---in contrast to + updates to the Fortran 90/95/2000 compiler.   H > It is true that Compaq Fortran 7.5 for OpenVMS Alpha is the last majorC > release for that platform, but Fortran development continues at aoF > furious pace and there will be a Compaq Fortran for OpenVMS Itanium.  D A further source of confusion is that for a while FORTRAN meant the H Fortran 77 compiler, while Fortran 90/95 went by the name F90.  Thus, I I thought the original poster was referring to the lack of support for the   Fortran 77 compiler.  E If I understand things correctly now, Compaq Fortran 7.5 for OpenVMS eI Alpha WILL be the last release of the compiler which supports the newest tC standard (currently F90 + enhancements).  Considering how long new  G ALPHAs will be sold (according to the current road map), it looks like  C the next major update of Fortran won't make it to ALPHA.  That's a =B shame.  That means that Fortran on VMS will be one of the last to  support the new standard.    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:33:13 +0100 (MET)P9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>,< Subject: hobbyist (ISDN) VMS internet connectivity in Europe; Message-ID: <01KF9U3HVS0Y8ZOX9C@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>-  D I have at home what in principle is a good internet connection: VMS A machines sit behind an ISDN router, and both incoming as well as rH outgoing connections are dial-on-demand.  The difficult part is finding D an ISP who supports dial-IN-on-demand as well as giving me fixed IP 
 addresses.  F I wouldn't need the on-demand stuff if I have an affordable flat rate.  E If I stick with dial-on-demand, I think I need ISDN (not analog, not ># DSL), at least with my present ISP./  F However, I'm not happy with my ISP---he reacts slowly to requests for I entering DNS information, setting up IP-filtering (which I need to avoid S? (paying for) unwanted connections) etc.  Thus, I'm looking for OE information for other alternatives.  Another ISP who offers the same  I service but does so well would be the easiest and perhaps best move, but ^A telephone charges would have to be as for local calls or cheaper.U  G I really can't be too demanding of the ISP, since at the moment I have  B no alternative.  If he doesn't react to polite requests, impolite G requests will probably just make things work.  Of course, I can cancel P? the service, but for my own sake don't want to until I have an T alternative.  % Can anyone suggest any suitable ISPs?>  I As far as I know, the ISP does not have to be local physically to charge u5 calls at a local rate, or can have an 800 number etc.h  B The only other possibility I've heard of is Komtel in Flensburg.  H However, I tried several times to get quotes from them etc before going D with my current ISP, but they seemed rather disorganised.  If a new G customer can't even get an offer reasonably, I don't have much hope of o service when I need it.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:45:42 +0000  From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> @ Subject: Re: hobbyist (ISDN) VMS internet connectivity in Europe) Message-ID: <3C8DEA66.8DAFF511@Omond.net>    Phillip Helbig wrote:u  E > I have at home what in principle is a good internet connection: VMSYB > machines sit behind an ISDN router, and both incoming as well asI > outgoing connections are dial-on-demand.  The difficult part is findingsE > an ISP who supports dial-IN-on-demand as well as giving me fixed IP- > addresses.  ' Does Demon offer a service in Germany ?a  H Here in the UK, I'm pretty happy with the ISDN service offered by Demon.K Fixed IP address, flat-fee service, all the things you seem to be searching  for.  > I use a Netgear RH348 ISDN router and am *very* happy with it.  	 Roy Omondi Blue Bubble Ltd.  ? P.s. would the Boerse be looking for any additional VMS staff ?lA I'll be available as of 18-March, and am a fluent German speaker.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:38:55 -0500 1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com>h@ Subject: Re: hobbyist (ISDN) VMS internet connectivity in Europe2 Message-ID: <3C8E04EF.21BAE06F@firstdbasource.com>  H my question is, why would you opt for 128K ISDN over 1.5/256 DSL or 10Mb cable?  G I use DSL and it is "always on".  My VMS, Linux and Windows systems are E connected with a router/hub and have no problems..  at this time I do D not have static IP, but with 2 linux boxes keeping up with my WAN IPH address and updating my dynamic DNS entries every 5 minutes, I have very
 few problems.l   Phillip Helbig wrote:. > E > I have at home what in principle is a good internet connection: VMSeB > machines sit behind an ISDN router, and both incoming as well asI > outgoing connections are dial-on-demand.  The difficult part is findingiE > an ISP who supports dial-IN-on-demand as well as giving me fixed IP, > addresses. > H > I wouldn't need the on-demand stuff if I have an affordable flat rate. > F > If I stick with dial-on-demand, I think I need ISDN (not analog, not% > DSL), at least with my present ISP.  > G > However, I'm not happy with my ISP---he reacts slowly to requests forlJ > entering DNS information, setting up IP-filtering (which I need to avoid@ > (paying for) unwanted connections) etc.  Thus, I'm looking forF > information for other alternatives.  Another ISP who offers the sameJ > service but does so well would be the easiest and perhaps best move, butC > telephone charges would have to be as for local calls or cheaper.) > H > I really can't be too demanding of the ISP, since at the moment I haveC > no alternative.  If he doesn't react to polite requests, impolite H > requests will probably just make things work.  Of course, I can cancel@ > the service, but for my own sake don't want to until I have an > alternative. > ' > Can anyone suggest any suitable ISPs?s > J > As far as I know, the ISP does not have to be local physically to charge7 > calls at a local rate, or can have an 800 number etc.h > B > The only other possibility I've heard of is Komtel in Flensburg.I > However, I tried several times to get quotes from them etc before going E > with my current ISP, but they seemed rather disorganised.  If a newlH > customer can't even get an offer reasonably, I don't have much hope of > service when I need it.    --   Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163 7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.comh Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)- 704-236-4377 (Mobile)-   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 09:00:04 -0800: From: bes@out-fits.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bernard_Str=E4hl?=)> Subject: How can I allow a captive user to change password ...= Message-ID: <eb298964.0203120900.6383e1b7@posting.google.com>5   Hi 0  B How can I allow a captive user to change his password within a DClD menu? Is there already a small procedure (not found in SYS$EXAMPLES) that will do this?D Another option will be to write it my-self but I think there must be% already this kind-of-stuff somewhere.y thanks Bernard   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 11:46:08 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) B Subject: Re: How can I allow a captive user to change password ...3 Message-ID: <JbjGlMXGqV91@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  z In article <eb298964.0203120900.6383e1b7@posting.google.com>, bes@out-fits.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bernard_Str=E4hl?=) writes:  D > How can I allow a captive user to change his password within a DCl > menu?t  : By DCL menu, I presume you mean a menu implemented in DCL.  + Have you tried just invoking SET PASSWORD ?   A If you get a strange error, try DEFINE/USER SYS$INPUT SYS$COMMANDw  on the line before SET PASSWORD.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 07:39:36 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i0 Subject: Re: HP Unix servers plunge below $1,0003 Message-ID: <q6rQ8EFgF8mu@eisner.encompasserve.org>8   In article <rdeininger-1103022037290001@1cust234.tnt3.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes: > * > Well, I don't believe the $500 estimate.  @    The first 21064 Alpha chips introduced in the early 90's were:    available for $800 a piece, single.  Lower in quantity.  ?    $500 in quantity doesn't seem unreasonable for low end Alpha     chips today.n   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 09:47:09 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)0 Subject: Re: HP Unix servers plunge below $1,000= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0203120947.5165d390@posting.google.com>_  r "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<O39j8.13575$44.3277858@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>...@ > "Keith Parris" <keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message9 > news:cf15391e.0203111233.462afef6@posting.google.com...eA > > rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) wrote in messageeI >  news:<rdeininger-0703022115320001@1cust40.tnt4.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>...lK > > > I don't see how HP could offer an alpha-based system for at little asu> > > > $1000.  Alpha CPUs are too expensive at current volumes. > >. > > I don't agree. > >gH > > Other posters have estimated the average cost of Alpha chips at onlyH > > about $500.  Yes, that's a big piece of the $1,000 price target, butH > > you can buy a complete new 1 Ghz eMachines PC these days at Best BuyG > > for $399 (sometimes even with monitor and printer included), so the E > > rest of the parts could likely be fit into $400 or so of cost and-- > > still leave enough room to make a profit.g > K > If you calculated the cost of Alpha chip, system, software, compiler, etcaK > development and deployment and divided it by the number of chips producediN > each year, you'd end up with a per-chip overhead cost of about $500USD. This) > could be one reason CPQ scuttled Alpha.t  D $500 is nothing ... you pay $1500+ now for pentium iv systems off of> valuevision ... and you are forgetting the alpha w/vms can runD hundreds of users (thousands fro some apps), a windoze box can't do F that, so divide $500 by 100 users and you get $50 per user ... windozeD $400 cheap junk box / 1 user is $400 ... a perfect box and chip thatD would be inexpensive we use for our branches is the digital personalA workstation au models running 433 500 or 600mhz ev5 alpha w/ultraN? scsi bus ... what a home box!  I run one and it is powerful ...o   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:19:35 GMTr# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n6 Subject: Re: IBM disk drives only work for 8 hours .../ Message-ID: <b0pj8.3399$_L.2088@news1.bloor.is>a  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagea= news:3H7i8.309169$Aw2.24707133@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...- >-I > My point was that in this case you'd hardly be likely to be running IDEcK > drives after switching to IBM, in which case problems with IBM IDE drives J > would hardly affect your decision to switch (as you suggested at the top of
 > this post).k > J > However, since it turns out that there's absolutely no indication of anyL > problem with the IBM IDE drives in question (see my other post), the issue
 > is dead.  I Drive mechanicals are the same for drives in the same size/product familys8 (scsi and IDE). It's the electronics that are different.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:15:59 GMTn* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>6 Subject: Re: IBM disk drives only work for 8 hours ...C Message-ID: <jJqj8.355907$Aw2.29178996@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>p  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in message) news:b0pj8.3399$_L.2088@news1.bloor.is..." >e7 > "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in messagei? > news:3H7i8.309169$Aw2.24707133@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...I > >dK > > My point was that in this case you'd hardly be likely to be running IDEhF > > drives after switching to IBM, in which case problems with IBM IDE drivesL > > would hardly affect your decision to switch (as you suggested at the top > of > > this post).g > > L > > However, since it turns out that there's absolutely no indication of anyH > > problem with the IBM IDE drives in question (see my other post), the issued > > is dead. >iK > Drive mechanicals are the same for drives in the same size/product familyg: > (scsi and IDE). It's the electronics that are different.  F What constitutes the 'same product family' is the kicker:  mechanicals@ between similar-capacity/speed SCSI and IDE drives from the sameE manufacturer have often differed in the past.  But more to the point,eI there's not that much overlap:  the highest-rated IDE drives are 7200 rpmiL beasties (with a lot of 5400 rpm models still available), while it's gettingK difficult to find a SCSI drive at less than 10K rpm these days (and I don't' think any below 7200 rpm).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:12:05 +0100r From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>8 Subject: Re: IBM's ESS/Shark as storage for VMS systems?& Message-ID: <3C8DAA45.3090306@home.nl>    Yehavi Bourvine (58-4279) wrote:   >Hello,  > M >   We have a cluster of 4 Alpha systems running heavy I/O applications (likesN >RDB databases and home written applications) which share disks via MSCP. I amN >now checking the ability to move to a central storage solutions, and the mainF >contenders are Compaq (MA-8,000), EMC (Symetrix) and IBM (ESS/Shark). > G If I'm not mistaken Compaq sells / sold the Shark under the the Compaq  ( brand, but it was not certified for VMS.   >t >  >   I have tow questions:-N >1. Each system connects separately to the central storage via  dedicated SCSI >   or F/C card  >jG No, with Fibre you need a central switch, or (much) better 2 F/C cards cB per system, and 2 switches. Forget about copper SCSI, to slow and G outdated now. Of course you will need VMS 7.2.2 or VMS 7.3 in order to s use F/C.  = > (and ofcourse has LAN connection for the cluster). Will theaK >   LAN cluster do the all file/records locking when two systems access the  >   same disk/file ? >oI Yes, all cluster (SCS) traffic will go over LAN connections. You can use i8 a seperate LAN card for this, maybe even a gigabit card.   >-J >2. I know a lot of systems use MA-8,000 or EMC. How is the IBM's Shark? IF >   mean how it works with VMS systems and whether anyone had problems+ >   intergrating it into a VMS environment.4? >                                             Thanks! __Yehavi:  >b  G Iike someone else wrote, go for the HSV110 Virtual Array controller if s= you really want high performance. Use it with a 2 Gb/sec F/C  H  infrastructure, and you will have all the performance you want. On the G other hand if your database isn't that big, you can also use the HSG80 lG (MA8000 etc.). Most likely it will be so much faster than your present v; configuration that its performance is more than sufficient.d   >i   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 08:22:01 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)t% Subject: If PCs were like regieratorse3 Message-ID: <Hh2dt$mUZ23S@eisner.encompasserve.org>f  n In article <b096a4ee.0203111816.3b3cf1a4@posting.google.com>, spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes:  1 > I quote a small part of it (fair use, I think):r > G > For most forms of current technology, these questions have long been aG > settled. No executives are worried about illegal uses of televisions nF > or coffee makers, for instance, and no consumers need to worry that F > these appliances will crash or become infected with viruses; and we G > would never accept it if they did. Our TV's and VCR's don't take ill 1G > when we watch infected programs, and our refrigerators never require e > rebooting.  .    To recall the famous cars vs. PCs exchange.  >    If PC's today had avanced at the same rate as refigerators:  /    1)  You'ld just plug them in and they'd work9>    2)  They'd handle more than they used to, in the same spaceB    3)  They'd be cheaper to own (allowing for inflation), not just        cheaper to buyg/    4)  You'ld keep the current one for 20 yearsmM    5)  You wouldn't have to buy a separate printer in order to get something r        out of one K    6)  Top of the line models would feature basic output functions without          picking up the keyboardG    7)  Instead of guarding them for viruses, you'ld just wipe them downt$        once a year with a damp clothH    8)  If you had any trouble whatsoever with one, you'ld just put a box!        of baking soda in the backrI    9)  You could pick up 1G storage at any grocery store without worryingo?        about whether it would work with your PC's storage shelfa8    10) The CD tray would be rated at 50 lbs. static load$    11) Grandma's PC would be avacado   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 10:29:34 -0800, From: enetworks@earthlink.net (Diana Stroud)5 Subject: JOB OPENING in  NYC : Sr. Programmer Analystr= Message-ID: <64d3c19d.0203121029.20217b41@posting.google.com>h  C My client, a large financial services company, is looking to hire adF Senior Programmer Analyst to design, develop and maintain applicationsC running in their VMS data center. The candidate will be responsibletF for the analysis of business requirements, developing technical designF documents ,writing technical specs., diagnosing and repairing softwareD problems, etc. Candidates must have a total of five plus years of ITC development experience including the development and maintenance ofDB applications on the VMS operating system using Pascal, VMS C++ andF Bliss. Relevant industry related experience is mandatory including the9 development and maintenance of US Dollar traded securitesDF applications. If you are interested, please send an e-mail and includeA your phone contact information. I will contact you to discuss thel& position in greater detail. Thank you.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:42:01 +0100a) From: "remy.younes" <remy.younes@free.fr>e1 Subject: Re: linking port with service on OpenVMS 3 Message-ID: <3c8e068e$0$2412$626a54ce@news.free.fr>p   As far as i remember,s# Try out UCX [TCPIP] set service ...S   de mmoire,eK essayez la commande UCX (ou TCPIP  partir de la V5) set service (help pouri
 plus d'infos),    8 "Koen" <koenf@advalvas.be> a crit dans le message news:2 a5f851a0.0203110758.12e96a1a@posting.google.com... > Hi,d > G > can anyone tell me the steps to link a specific service on an OpenVMS  > with a specific port ? >p > Thanks in advance !b >o > Koen   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 04:08:23 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) 4 Subject: Re: Microsoft Curries Favor With Undergrads= Message-ID: <55f85d77.0203120408.77c5a6da@posting.google.com>   ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3C8D7773.F95C8CB2@fsi.net>... > G > Sorry I took for granted that such would be assumed by the reader. My,
 > mistake.  @ No worries - I got that a little wrong too - Widget Quality, and? hence device driver quality, not Widget (Quantity-of-choice pert
 category).  ? > Actually, I rather expected that OVMS would put forth a "mobooG > manifesto": "these are the chipsets we developed for and have tested;t > outside of that, YOYO".c  H This I would not like to see. What is that (s-bend * 10) little trace on) the PCB - an antenna or a delay line or ?o  E I've seen crapulent PC mobos - who can implement the chipset properlyeG and not who gets it to market in the fastest possible time is important 
 in this case.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:43:01 GMTh- From: "John Hayes" <john@worldwide-wines.moc>s+ Subject: Re: OpenVMS Mail and Exchange 2000 B Message-ID: <9mpj8.6898$nG7.1642739778@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com>  % Here is the kicker about all of this.r  K I have a smiliar alpha system 7.3 vms 5.1 tcpip and similar nt setup and ityL works. The config for SMTP is the same for both and based on what I see hereG leads me to belive that the issue is something on the windows 2000 box.H   John  3 "Jan-Erik Sderholm" <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in messagee! news:3C8D2C43.FF1DEB4A@aaa.com...s; > Well, it's obviously SBSSERVER that says "Unable to relayl  > for JOHN@worldwide-wines.com". >m< > Can you send to "JOHN@worldwide-wines.com" using any other
 > mail tool ?8 > ? > Can any other system send to "JOHN@worldwide-wines.com" usingc > SBSSERVER as mailgate ?i >r6 > Is it just this user or can't you sent to any user ? >f& > Your "similar system", what's that ?2 > Another VMS system using SBSSERVER as mailgate ? > A > Does the smtp-server on SBSSERVER have any kind of logging thatwE > can be checked ? Someware there should be some explenation on *why*t > the mail can't be relayed. >P? > Well, guess I'm more or less out of "tip-of-the-day" here :-)p >i > Jan-Erik.  >  > John Hayes wrote:e > >hK > > Below is part of the log. I am not sure how to turn off relaying on the J > > windows 2000 server. I have a similar system working but can't see any  > > differences between the two. > >s/ > > Connected to SMTP server SBSSERVER.WSWC.ORG H > > recv buf=220 sbsserver.wswcgroup.local Microsoft ESMTP MAIL Service,# > > send buf=HELO wswc.wswc.org\d\a.? > > recv buf=250 sbsserver.wswcgroup.local Hello [10.0.0.3]\d\al, > > send buf=MAIL FROM:<system@wswc.org>\d\a7 > > recv buf=250 2.1.0 system@wswc.org....Sender OK\d\aa3 > > send buf=RCPT TO:<JOHN@worldwide-wines.com>\d\ayG > > recv buf=550 5.7.1 Unable to relay for JOHN@worldwide-wines.com\d\ai > > send buf=QUIT\d\ar@ > > recv buf=221 2.0.0 sbsserver.wswcgroup.local Service closing transmission > > channel\d\an   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 08:13:04 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)nX Subject: Re: Paul Vixie [was Re: above.net condones spam, spamware,   spamvertisements ]3 Message-ID: <GiGB9vvU5yQ1@eisner.encompasserve.org>P  ? In case anyone forgot, this sort of message is almost certainlyt? not from Brad Madison.  It is created with followups set to thee= spamfighting newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.email in order tom@ disrupt discussions in that group.  As you may remember Brad has3 posted here about honeypots used to catch spammers.   ? Be careful of where the followups go if you reply to such post.a  _ In article <4E7426A8.38CFC767@mail.tds.net>, "brad.madison" <brad.madison@mail.tds.net> writes:fC > It's very active today, I'll recollect unbelievably or Usha will t? > irrigate the figs.  Mustafa, have a smart tailor.  You won't eD > wander it.  When did Ramsi walk the ointment through the handsome  > goldsmith?   > ? > Other urban new units will jump loudly inside pens.  Lots of ,C > filthy polite ball lives oranges under Jadallah's tired enigma.  BH > Hardly any potters will be sticky full grocers.  Tomorrow, Ziad never E > combs until Jimmie burns the durable jug sadly.  Hey, it rejects a -K > button too humble beside her bizarre office.  Otherwise the carpenter in B@ > Ikram's cloud might dream some empty painters.  When will you A > climb the stupid ugly pears before Ronald does?  Just laughing .Q > between a plate in the island is too strong for Muhammad to taste it.  Are you n. > dry, I mean, pulling over difficult desks?   > A > He should excuse wet ulcers, do you dye them?  Who did Kirsten eF > receive alongside all the tapes?  We can't irritate stickers unless N > Hala will rigidly believe afterwards.  Yosri cares the dose inside hers and ? > weekly wastes.  They dully judge to short weird shores.  Rob nH > recommends, then Agha regularly changes a inner sauce with Taysseer's C > station.  Hardly any glad dull farmers happily help as the elder 9A > caps dine.  He'll be arriving behind brave Atiqullah until his SE > hat attacks frantically.  I was conversing to clean you some of my sO > pretty books.  As freely as Mustafa fills, you can kick the candle much more aA > lazily.  When Abdel's bitter walnut sows, Sherry seeks outside S > proud, kind hairs.   > K > It poured, you opened, yet Kirsten never admiringly played alongside the SD > barn.  The printers, pumpkins, and tyrants are all wide and bad.  A > Don't mould the films eerily, promise them globally.  No noisy :F > blunt barbers will quickly learn the lemons.  The outer disk rarely B > looks Pervez, it scolds Gul instead.  She wants to smell hollow J > cases beneath Osama's cave.  She'd rather move easily than improve with I > Rachel's easy counter.  Where does Allahdad tease so cruelly, whenever 4A > Sarah departs the deep diet very wanly?  If you'll join Lara's 0B > doorway with porters, it'll slowly grasp the dryer.  While dogs @ > familiarly order drapers, the spoons often kill alongside the ? > younger shirts.  Some bowls creep, nibble, and fear.  Others mB > stupidly lift.  Kathy, over wrinkles unique and quiet, explains F > in it, talking hourly.  He might subtly love abysmal and solves our % > thin, heavy coffees among a cafe.  s >  >  >  --  N ==============================================================================I The Boulder Pledge: "Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anything2J      offered to me as the result of an unsolicited email message. Nor willI      I forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or virus warningstH      to large numbers of others. This is my contribution to the survival      of the online community."N ==============================================================================   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:52:49 -0800A# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>Y* Subject: PC monitor attached to RGB output9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEFJEFAA.tom@kednos.com>P   VRT19 dieing after 10 years.  L Is it possible to get a cable with three BNC connectors at one end to attachK to the 'box' and SVGA at the other to attach to the monitor.   Anybody haven ah URL?   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:06:33 -0500 4 From: John Malmberg <Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>. Subject: Re: PC monitor attached to RGB output4 Message-ID: <3C8E1979.3040302@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq>   Tom Linden wrote:    > VRT19 dieing after 10 years. > N > Is it possible to get a cable with three BNC connectors at one end to attach> > to the 'box' and SVGA at the other to attach to the monitor.   Yesd   > Anybody have a URL?f    < See the OpenVMS FAQ for the part number of the Compaq Widget6 http://www.openvms.compaq.com - look for the FAQ link.   -John  Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq Personal Opinion Only    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:14:33 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>. Subject: Re: PC monitor attached to RGB output) Message-ID: <3C8E1B59.6CC344A3@127.0.0.1>-   Tom Linden wrote: N > Is it possible to get a cable with three BNC connectors at one end to attachM > to the 'box' and SVGA at the other to attach to the monitor.   Anybody haveL > a@ > URL?  % Do go for a "synch on green' monitor.s  E I'm using a Samsung 700 IFT which has both BNC and SVGA 15 pin, and Ii0 can switch from the front panel between the two.   -- d( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:19:08 -0800r# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> . Subject: RE: PC monitor attached to RGB output9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEFLEFAA.tom@kednos.com>a   John,b  H Thanks, but that is not a very productive response,  have you ever triedJ finding anything on the Compaq site using their SEARCH function.  I prefer& random access not sequential searches.   Tomt > -----Original Message-----= > From: John Malmberg [mailto:Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq] ' > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 7:07 AM> > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms0 > Subject: Re: PC monitor attached to RGB output >  >  > Tom Linden wrote:s >   > > VRT19 dieing after 10 years. > > C > > Is it possible to get a cable with three BNC connectors at one e > end to attachb@ > > to the 'box' and SVGA at the other to attach to the monitor. >  > Yesn >  > > Anybody have a URL?  >  > > > See the OpenVMS FAQ for the part number of the Compaq Widget8 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com - look for the FAQ link. >  > -Johni  > Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq > Personal Opinion Onlyo >  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:24:00 -0800i# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>o. Subject: RE: PC monitor attached to RGB output9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEFLEFAA.tom@kednos.com>s  9 I wasn't planning on buying another monitor, just a cablee     > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Nic Clews [mailto:sendspamhere@127.0.0.1].' > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 7:15 AMm > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coma0 > Subject: Re: PC monitor attached to RGB output >  >  > Tom Linden wrote:rC > > Is it possible to get a cable with three BNC connectors at one   > end to attachrC > > to the 'box' and SVGA at the other to attach to the monitor.   t > Anybody have > > al > > URL? > ' > Do go for a "synch on green' monitor.C > G > I'm using a Samsung 700 IFT which has both BNC and SVGA 15 pin, and Ir2 > can switch from the front panel between the two. >  > -- 1* > Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences > nclews at csc dot comR >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:36:26 -0500o* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>. Subject: RE: PC monitor attached to RGB output- Message-ID: <0033000056066868000002L082*@MHS>    =0AOooh.  6 Your subject line gives me a mental image of a monitor going "Pop" and emitting smoke.t  / I've never heard of such a thing, but Black Boxa. makes hardware and cabling that make all sorts& of electronic unnatural acts possible.  	 Try them.o   WWWebb     -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET.& Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:01 AMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET* Subject: PC monitor attached to RGB output     VRT19 dieing after 10 years.  H Is it possible to get a cable with three BNC connectors at one end to a= ttach H to the 'box' and SVGA at the other to attach to the monitor.   Anybody = have ao URL?=    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:43:03 -0500 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>. Subject: RE: PC monitor attached to RGB output- Message-ID: <0033000056067896000002L062*@MHS>o  ( =0AGee, Tom- take a Valium or something.   It only took mes  9 one click (link is on the OpenVMS page that he linked to,m0 halfway down the page on the right side entitled "OpenVMS FAQ, text version")   and one find (RGB)3 to get the information to which John was referring.v  , He tells you where to look and you complain.  = Oh, and here's the information in case you can't be bothered.o  H The Digital part number 29-32540-01 converts the output from the RGB ca= ble H (3 BNC, synch-on-green) that comes with the VAXstation 3100 and VAXstat= ione) 4000 series to a female SVGA D connector.b  ? This will allow PC Multisync monitors with the needed frequencysC specifications to be used with the VAXstations.  It may work with a > VAXstation 2000 series, but I have not tried that combination.<                                           [John E. Malmberg]   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETs& Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 10:24 AMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET. Subject: RE: PC monitor attached to RGB output     John,   H Thanks, but that is not a very productive response,  have you ever trie= dnH finding anything on the Compaq site using their SEARCH function.  I pre= ferr& random access not sequential searches.   Tomc > -----Original Message-----= > From: John Malmberg [mailto:Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq]s' > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 7:07 AM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt0 > Subject: Re: PC monitor attached to RGB output >w >a > Tom Linden wrote:, >d  > > VRT19 dieing after 10 years. > >eB > > Is it possible to get a cable with three BNC connectors at one > end to attacha@ > > to the 'box' and SVGA at the other to attach to the monitor. >m > Yes  >y > > Anybody have a URL?a >e >r> > See the OpenVMS FAQ for the part number of the Compaq Widget8 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com - look for the FAQ link. >  > -John4  > Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq > Personal Opinion Onlyu >' >a >=   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:43:34 -0800 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>t. Subject: RE: PC monitor attached to RGB output9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEFOEFAA.tom@kednos.com>i  > OK, I found the part number (used emacs on the downloaded FAQ) Thanks Tom    > -----Original Message-----= > From: John Malmberg [mailto:Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq]e' > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 7:07 AMg > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt0 > Subject: Re: PC monitor attached to RGB output >  >  > Tom Linden wrote:  >   > > VRT19 dieing after 10 years. > > C > > Is it possible to get a cable with three BNC connectors at one - > end to attacha@ > > to the 'box' and SVGA at the other to attach to the monitor. >  > Yes  >  > > Anybody have a URL?: >  > > > See the OpenVMS FAQ for the part number of the Compaq Widget8 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com - look for the FAQ link. >  > -Johno  > Malmberg@dskwld.zko.dec.compaq > Personal Opinion Onlyl >  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:21:02 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")E Subject: Re: R.I.P. OpenVMS - ISS Recommends That H-P Holders Vote ino8 Message-ID: <00A0ACDB.DFF044F8@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  [ In article <3C8D8352.E38741FD@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:c >WILLIAM WEBB wrote: >>  8 >> I think that it's more likely the result of the moral6 >> relativism of the 60s becoming institutionalized in7 >> the educational establishment alongside the remnantsc! >> of the collectivist mentality.s >e >> David J. Dachtera wrote:r	 >> [snip]aH >> ..and the sadder part (for investors, common working people, etc.) is* >> that you are most likely quite correct! >> -K >> I'm slowly beginning to understand why business schools in the 90's werefH >> teaching students to "leave their ethics at home", and the results ofJ >> that philosophy are just beginning to manifest themselves in the public >> eye.P >eH >Seems to me the statements are more or less the same, just differing in# >scope of time. Keyword: decadence.l  L Sorry to keep on with an off-topic discussion, but I don't think that's it. K Modern behavior of large businesses is no worse than it was before Theodore B Roosevelt was President, and before the rise of organized labor.    O That behavior was pretty darn bad.  The antitrust regulations against predatory-I pricing, product bundling, and so on, weren't written because a regulatorYJ thought that would be bad if somebody ever did it - they were made illegalK because they were anticompetitive practices that were routinely engaged in.yO Stock fraud was _really_ common.  Even firms that actually had significant realrN income would deliberately run their stock prices up and down to transfer moneyK from outside investors to insiders (or, more inflammatorily, rob widows andi	 orphans.)u  L (The robber barons who did this kind of thing - and I do recognize the ironyG in posting on this topic from a Stanford account - often did fabulouslycK philanthropic things with their ill-gotten gains.  Bill Gates is a classic,s% classic robber baron in this regard.)(  L I don't think the Enron collapse is remotely a sign of decadence.  It would H have been considered perfectly normal if it had happened a hundred yearsN earlier (except that without computers they couldn't have gotten people to buyJ into derivatives).  It's not decadence.  It's the basic fact that a lot of1 people will do whatever they can get away with.  u  L Through much of the last century, the Federal government took an active handO in regulating this stuff, which reduced what people could get away with.  SinceeK people who believe that the invisible hand of the market will automatically.L come up with the best solution for everybody, and that regulations only slowG down the process, have been in power - since the Reagan administration,nM basically - the regulatory apparatus has been defanged and partly dismantled,AL and now the bad guys think they can get away with as much as they could haveO in 1899.  And they may be right.  (This analysis gives credence to the rhetoricuM the politicians themselved produced, and it doesn't require them to be venal,iJ corrupt, or in the pocket of shady businessment - not that I'm saying theyM _aren't_.  I'm just saying that honest free market fundamentalism, in a world J with bad people in it, would result in the kind of crap we're seeing now.)  M But it's not decadence, unless you think civilization peaked somewhere aroundhO the Nixon and Carter administrations.  (Maybe it did - the VAX and VMS came outsD during the Carter administration.  But I think disco is a sufficient counterexample.)   -- Alan   O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056oM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210cO ===============================================================================0   ------------------------------  " Date: Tue, 12 Mar 02 12:42:02 +100 From: rok@nuk.uni-lj.si  Subject: RE: Reduced SW RAID-5& Message-ID: <3c8df79d.0@NUK.Uni-Lj.Si>  3 keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:5F >rok@nuk.uni-lj.si wrote in message news:<3c8cdab7.0@NUK.Uni-Lj.Si>...& >>  How do I get it back into the set? >wD >Bart has already steered you in the right direction in terms of the >RAID commands.-    True. Thanks, Bart!  D >But the disk likely wasn't kicked out of the set for no reason.  ItD >might be useful to check your errorlog files for device errors, andE >also check the SYS$MANAGER:RAID$DIAGNOSTICS_*.LOG files on each node D >to get an idea of what the RAID software thought was wrong with theE >drive, and whether a hardware replacement is in order.  Otherwise iti! >may just happen again and again.m  D  And it is. I was suspecting this disk (formely system disk) before,A but found no errors in errorlog. Even now no device errors per se 2 are found, just RAID-5 errors. Two typical errors:  L **** V3.3  ********************* ENTRY  474 ********************************    , Logging OS                        1. OpenVMS* System Architecture               2. Alpha+ OS version                           V7.2-1 $ Event sequence number          1370.9 Timestamp of occurrence              12-MAR-2002 00:01:24 5 Time since reboot                    0 Day(s) 9:24:03 * Host name                            VEGA0  ; System Model                         AlphaServer 1000 4/200d  1 Entry Type                        1. Device Error,     ---- Device Profile ----. Unit                                 $256$DPA18 Product Name                         RAID 5 - Host Based   -- Host Based RAID --B   RAID Member Unit Namer$ RAID Member Unit Number           0.$ Unit Error Count                  0.$ Unit Queue Length                 0.7 RAID Status               x00000000  No Status bits set $ RAID Member Type                  0.$ RAID Member Class                 0.7 RAID Urgency                      0. No Removal Requestr) RAID Array Name                      DPA1    ----- Software Info -----l6 UCB$x_ERTCNT                    104. Retries Remaining6 UCB$x_ERTMAX                    114. Retries Allowable+ IRP$Q_IOSB                x01240000000001A4o7 UCB$x_STS                 x00303032  Interrupt Expectedy+                                      Onliner<                                      Power Failed While Busy7                                      Unload At Dismountn1                                      Template UCBs9                                      Dismount in progress I                                      Cluster State Transition in progresss4 IRP$L_PID                 x00060077  Requestor "PID"5 IRP$x_BOFF                     4608. Byte Page Offsetg= IRP$x_BCNT                      512. Transfer Size In Byte(s)l5 UCB$x_ERRCNT                      2. Errors This Units4 UCB$L_OPCNT                   10025. QIO's This Unit/ ORB$L_OWNER               x00010004  Owners UIC 9 UCB$L_DEVCHAR1            x1C4D4008  Directory Structuredl2                                      File Oriented-                                      Sharableo.                                      Available,                                      Mounted2                                      Error Logging5                                      Capable of Inputi6                                      Capable of Output2                                      Random Access    L **** V3.3  ********************* ENTRY  475 ********************************    , Logging OS                        1. OpenVMS* System Architecture               2. Alpha+ OS version                           V7.2-1=$ Event sequence number          1371.9 Timestamp of occurrence              12-MAR-2002 00:01:28r5 Time since reboot                    0 Day(s) 9:24:07o* Host name                            VEGA0  ; System Model                         AlphaServer 1000 4/200n  B Entry Type                       98. Asynchronous Device Attention     ---- Device Profile ----. Unit                                 $256$DPA18 Product Name                         RAID 5 - Host Based   -- Host Based RAID ---  + RAID Member Unit Name                $4$DKA0$ RAID Member Unit Number         300.$ Unit Error Count                  0.$ Unit Queue Length                 0.5 RAID Status               x00000810  Bit 04 - Quiesce 8                                      Bit 11 - MM Replace$ RAID Member Type                146.$ RAID Member Class                 1.7 RAID Urgency                      0. No Removal Request ) RAID Array Name                      DPA1u   ----- Software Info ----- 6 UCB$x_ERTCNT                      0. Retries Remaining6 UCB$x_ERTMAX                     22. Retries Allowable+ IRP$Q_IOSB                x0002000000000124 + UCB$x_STS                 x08025810  Online13                                      Software Validr7                                      Unload At DismountdE                                      "Mount Verification" In-ProgressaF                                      Volume is Valid on the local nodeL                                      Unit supports the Extended Function bit4 IRP$L_PID                 x00000000  Requestor "PID"5 IRP$x_BOFF                        0. Byte Page Offset4= IRP$x_BCNT                        0. Transfer Size In Byte(s)R5 UCB$x_ERRCNT                      3. Errors This Unit14 UCB$L_OPCNT                   10026. QIO's This Unit/ ORB$L_OWNER               x00010004  Owners UICr9 UCB$L_DEVCHAR1            x1C4D4008  Directory Structuredr2                                      File Oriented-                                      Sharable .                                      Available,                                      Mounted2                                      Error Logging5                                      Capable of Input-6                                      Capable of Output2                                      Random Access  @  Hm. Power Failed While Busy. Disk? Power supply? I have 4 disks in the AlphaServer 1000 bay.   Regards,  D Rok Vidmar                       Internet:  rok.vidmar@nuk.uni-lj.si; National and University Library  Phone:     +386 1 421 5461 ; Turjaska 1, SI-1000 Ljubljana    Fax:       +386 1 421 5464c Slovenia   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 08:37:31 -0800$ From: JKoska@bender.com (John Koska) Subject: Re: Reduced SW RAID-5= Message-ID: <aa5ec19e.0203120837.55df74fb@posting.google.com>d  E rok@nuk.uni-lj.si wrote in message news:<3c8df79d.0@NUK.Uni-Lj.Si>...15 > keithparris_NOSPAM@yahoo.com (Keith Parris) writes:tH > >rok@nuk.uni-lj.si wrote in message news:<3c8cdab7.0@NUK.Uni-Lj.Si>...( > >>  How do I get it back into the set? > >eF > >Bart has already steered you in the right direction in terms of the > >RAID commands.C >  >  True. Thanks, Bart! > F > >But the disk likely wasn't kicked out of the set for no reason.  ItF > >might be useful to check your errorlog files for device errors, andG > >also check the SYS$MANAGER:RAID$DIAGNOSTICS_*.LOG files on each nodeeF > >to get an idea of what the RAID software thought was wrong with theG > >drive, and whether a hardware replacement is in order.  Otherwise itn# > >may just happen again and again.  > F >  And it is. I was suspecting this disk (formely system disk) before,C > but found no errors in errorlog. Even now no device errors per seo4 > are found, just RAID-5 errors. Two typical errors: >  .  . <snip> . B >  Hm. Power Failed While Busy. Disk? Power supply? I have 4 disks > in the AlphaServer 1000 bay. > 
 > Regards, > F > Rok Vidmar                       Internet:  rok.vidmar@nuk.uni-lj.si= > National and University Library  Phone:     +386 1 421 5461t= > Turjaska 1, SI-1000 Ljubljana    Fax:       +386 1 421 5464S
 > Slovenia  B How odd.  I have almost exactly the same problem on my AlphaServer? 1000 running OpenVMS 7.3 with all released patches.  My disk of C question keeps dropping out of the RAID5set each night at about the1( same time, give or take a minute or two.  9 After much troubleshooting and snooping, I finally did anpB $ANAL/MEDIA/EXERCISE=(KEEP,FULL)/OUTPUT/SHOW=(BEFORE,AFTER) on theC disk that kept dropping out of the RAID5set.  It would not pass the ; ANAL, so I am off to call Compaq Service for another drive.c  C You might want to try ANAL/MEDIA on the disk to see what the effectn is.a   :) jck
 John Koska% "speaking for my, myself, and I only"e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:55:08 GMTa4 From: "Matt Muggeridge" <Matt.Muggeridge@compaq.com>6 Subject: Re: sending all data as out-of-band in TCP/IP< Message-ID: <wvij8.9420$mp.41309@news-server.bigpond.net.au>  E > Rather than sending all data normally, if one transmits all data as D > out-of-band, will there be any performance or behavior difference?  4 Yes.  It won't work... at least as you might expect.   > I-9 > won't be sending any normal data, but out-of-band data.   6 Defining normal and OOB data is a good place to start.  J OOB data is a single character that can be queued at the receiver ahead ofK other 'normal' data.  By setting the OOBINLINE flag, it will be queued with  the 'normal' data.  I The OOB data byte can and is overwritten by subsequent OOB data.  So yourF+ receiver has to keep up with it or lose it.g  G OOB seemed like a good idea back when it was being standardised, but ino0 practice it suffers from a lot of tricky detail.  I My advice is... try to avoid it.  If you absolutely cannot, then take theoF time to learn all of its limitations.  I've seen normally well behavedK programs fall apart when their receiver could not keep up with the OOB dataA( when their system became heavily loaded.   Matt.t   --= -------------------------------------------------------------X OpenVMS TCP/IP Engineering Enterprise Computing Group Compaq Computer Corporationb Gold Coast, AUSTRALIA = --------------------------------------------------------------    9 "Tony Cheung" <tony.cheung@asiayeah.com> wrote in messageI7 news:f9dc0a5a.0203112030.7364a382@posting.google.com...b	 > Hi All,  >e= > I have looked into the TCP/IP's out-of-band implementation.i > E > Rather than sending all data normally, if one transmits all data asoF > out-of-band, will there be any performance or behavior difference? I9 > won't be sending any normal data, but out-of-band data.a >sE > Are out-of-band data subject to the same flow control mechanisms inm	 > TCP/IP?b >  > Thank you very much. >.
 > Tony Cheung    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2002 08:56:32 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)w  Subject: Re: Sound on alpha/VMS?0 Message-ID: <a6kfs0$ks3$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  e In article <a6isgo$4m5$1@newslocal.mitre.org>, lewis@spyderforspam.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) writes:e >P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) writes in article <55f85d77.0203011738.1fbbdcc9@posting.google.com> dated 1 Mar 2002 17:38:30 -0800: G >>and had to do an isacfg from the SRM console to add the device beforeJ  >>it could be picked up as AUA0: >qM >Aha, I think this is the root of my problem.  ISA devices must be explicitlye >configured. >2J >I don't have the original configuration info for the MS card, and I can'tL >even get ECU to run from my floppy.  When I try (from the ARC menu) it saysK >something about a device error and then returns to the menu.  I'm guessingh$ >that my RX26 floppy drive is toast. >-K >I did find an ISA2000 device from the console, and one of the entries MMOVs1 >put into my SYS$USER_CONFIG.DAT looks promising:i >o; >! Added on 28-FEB-2002 19:04:20.67 via MMOV_ADD_DEVICE.COM  >!& >device       = "Microsoft Sound Card" >  name       = AU >  driver     = MMOV$MSBDRIVER >  adapter    = EISA >  id         = "ISA2000"a >end_deviceo >eH >Now if I could only get a CFG file for that, I'd be motivated enough to+ >cannibalize a RX26 from another computer. n  0 Add a statement like the following to your file:    flags = ISA_ON_EISA  after "adapter" and before "id". Then try
    MCR SYSMANk
    IO REBUILDp    IO AUTO/SEL=(AU*,VI*)    EXIT   ( At the boot console there is the command    add_soundG I don't know whether it is available on all machines or on all firmware 	 versions.n   Regards,    Christoph Gartmannp  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:44:03 -0000t* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>U Subject: Re: TANSTAAFL (was Re: Viability of a Commercial ISO-9960 formatter for VMS)u+ Message-ID: <a6l47a$l04@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>   V "Dean Woodward" <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote in message news:3C8D8DF5.11532114@rdrop.com...  ; > There are circles where not having read Heinlein would beS > considered Blasphemy...r  * Remind me, where did Dante put sf fans? ;)   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 06:13:14 -0800, From: sanface@sanface.com (SANFACE Software) Subject: txt2pdf 5.6= Message-ID: <18712ccd.0203120613.5a7de84e@posting.google.com>l  / We would like to announce txt2pdf 5.6 version. a# http://www.sanface.com/txt2pdf.htmlrE txt2pdf is shareware; it is a very flexible and powerful PERL5 scriptbB that converts text files to PDF format files, so you can use it inE every operating systems supported by PERL5, including OpenVMS. If yousB prefer we also distribute executables for Windows, Linux, Solaris,> AIX, HP-UX, and Mac OS X. Inside the Windows version is Visual txt2pdf, a VB GUI.   What's new in this version  D New linear option or inside your configuration file: list. With thisA new option you can specify a list file with inside a list of youru+ input textual files (one entry every line).h   Test txt2pdf 5.6!i6 You can find it at http://www.sanface.com/txt2pdf.html   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 07:47:12 GMTn4 From: "Matt Muggeridge" <Matt.Muggeridge@compaq.com> Subject: Re: unzip installationh< Message-ID: <4oij8.9406$mp.41524@news-server.bigpond.net.au>   One more thing...d  J When zipping savesets, be sure to use the "-V" flag, otherwise you have toF tangle with fixing file attributes.  The quotes around *capital* V areL needed to preserve the case.  The '*' around capital are there for EMPHASIS, the ...    Oh, it's been a long day.    --= -------------------------------------------------------------v OpenVMS TCP/IP Engineering Enterprise Computing Group Compaq Computer Corporationc Gold Coast, AUSTRALIAt= -------------------------------------------------------------u    D "Pierre-Luc Morin" <Pierre-Luc.Morin@CSE-CST.GC.CA> wrote in message, news:1015884154.115243@news.drenet.dnd.ca...L > Does anyone knows how to install unzip on an OpenVms Alpha system?  I have aaL > file name unzipAlpha.exe but when i try to do      run unzipAlpha test.zip@ > ,for example,  it tells me that i have too much parameters.... >s >g >s > Thanks > Petere >i >    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:13:32 +0100 (MET)o9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>m Subject: Re: unzip installation ; Message-ID: <01KF9NMCM7368Y996Y@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>i  I > When zipping savesets, be sure to use the "-V" flag, otherwise you haveuG > to tangle with fixing file attributes.  The quotes around *capital* VnH > are needed to preserve the case.  The '*' around capital are there for > EMPHASIS, the ...   4 ZIP and UNZIP have had a VMS-style CLI for years....   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:47:58 -0500=  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com Subject: Re: VFC File ProblemO4 Message-ID: <C2256B7A.00510C88.00@jklh21.valmet.com>   David,, I'd be delighted to do that if I had a link.6 It's in the DSNlink (as I said already) BASIC database' and I don't access that from a browser.= -Norm=        / djesys.nospam@fsi.net on 03/11/2002 10:40:48 PM-  ' Please respond to djesys.nospam@fsi.net    To:   Info-VAX@mvb.saic.com@ cc:n Subject:  Re: VFC File Problem        ! norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:j >>E > Note:  I am not including the code because of the copyright notice.l  8 Then, can you at least post a link to the original item?   -- David J. Dachterat dba DJE SystemsB http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/,   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 10:26:53 -0800, From: don.braffitt@compaq.com (Don Braffitt) Subject: Re: VFC File Problemd= Message-ID: <14c5ce2f.0203121026.16b1c25b@posting.google.com>a  L > The Report Writer facility of VAX COBOL formats spoolfiles in this fashion$ > - I haven't looked on Alpha COBOL.  @ Compaq COBOL on OpenVMS Alpha provides COBOL/NOVFC as an option:  K   http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73final/cobol/cobrm_011.htm#index_x_392o   - Don Braffitt&   Compaq COBOL and SORT project leader   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 03:37:12 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)*A Subject: Re: Viability of a Commercial ISO-9960 formatter for VMS 3 Message-ID: <bvp9h6GKnAx3@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  [ In article <3C8D7A18.25D755BD@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:c  H > You buy VMS, you get VMS. Want networking? Sorry, that's extra (or wasI > up until recently). Want file/print sharing for PCs? That almost costs lF > more than VMS (Advanced Server). Want a GUI? That was extra, too, up > until recently.v  A What is this "until recently" business ?  Has something changed ?   ? So far as I know, DECwindows and networking protocols are stillo! not bundled into the VMS license.   < Of course when one buys a new system those license are often9 bundled into the purchase, but that has been the case for  many many years.   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 07:50:24 -00005 From: "Doc.Cypher" <doc_cypher@redneck.gacracker.org> ' Subject: Re: VMS conferencing software..5 Message-ID: <20020312075024.2865.qmail@gacracker.org>   5 NOTE: This message was sent thru a mail2news gateway. 8 No effort was made to verify the identity of the sender.8 --------------------------------------------------------  " On Tue, 12 Mar 2002, Michiel Erens5 <I.dont.want.spam@this.mailaddress.is.invalid> wrote:  >Doc.Cypher wrote: >> O >> Hi, >>  G >> Is there any freeware text conferencing software for VMS, and if so  # >> where can I get my hands on it? n > 6 >Richard Levitte has some IRC stuff on his FTP site :  > ftp://ftp.lp.se/vms/  H Thanks Michiel, that looks like it would do the job, now if I could only/ get FTP to Richard's site to stop timing out...    >I also googled this message :3 >> We have had XIRC-client ported since 16-DEC-1999g- >> ftp://byron.ext.telia.se/vms/tdf/xicq.zip   >> IC >> and a short note here: ftp://byron.ext.telia.se/vms/tdf/xicq.txtC  H I've already got an IRC client installed and running, but thanks anyway.  / Of course, thanks to everyone who has answered.      Doc. -- c6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                              http://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 07:52:38 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r' Subject: Re: VMS conferencing software. 3 Message-ID: <vO7mpqPYFkw4@eisner.encompasserve.org>   f In article <3C8D3429.76437681@firstdbasource.com>, Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> writes:  J > Hmmm... now that goes back a ways... I really liked notes because all ofH > the conferences and threads were almost kept indefinately for referral > at a later date.  6    Get off your wayback machine and join EncompasserveF    (eisner.encompasserve.org), and you can have Notes again.  Like allF    things VMS, once it got ported to an Alpha it sure runs good there.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:01:45 -0500 + From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>.' Subject: RE: VMS conferencing software.DT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1D43@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  4 >>> PHONE is perfect for one-to-one communication<<<  H As a fyi, there is also a new secure VMS based instant messaging product available as well.  
 Reference:= http://www.synthesysusa.com/news/releases/open_vms_dec10.htmlA  6 Jabcast available on Compaq's OpenVMS Operating System  C BOCA RATON, FL -- SyntheSys Secure Technologies, Inc. announces the E release of the JabCast Secure Realtime Communications (SRC) system on E Compaq Computer Corporation's AlphaServer systems running the OpenVMS D operating system. SyntheSys developed the product for JabCast, a New York-based software company.  H JabCast SRC is the first technology that allows for realtime interactiveA text, file, and document exchange in a secure environment via thelH Internet across multiple operating systems including Windows NT, Windows 2000, Linux, and UNIX.  D "Many companies and government agencies have been unable to maximize> their productivity and communications with the use of realtimeB communications across the Internet because of significant securityF concerns and the inability of different operating systems to 'talk' toE one another," said Craig Woolven, CEO of JabCast, Inc. "With JabCast,eH Compaq's OpenVMS provides the inherent security and the uptime needed inF critical real-time situations, as well as the scalability to grow with# our customers as demand increases."_  F JabCast SRC also provides absolute security of transmitted informationC from point of origination and destination. Moreover, it offers pathlF hiding by encrypting the sender's address from outside observation.=20  C "With the addition of JabCast, Compaq OpenVMS users have additional G options to share data and converse in realtime across the Internet in a D secure environment," said Mark Gorham, Vice President of the OpenVMSE Systems Group. "JabCast's capabilities, combined with the performanceoF and security of OpenVMS, will allow companies to increase productivityG by facilitating complete and secure, realtime online meetings that take H minutes versus the traditional exchange of e-mails over several hours or days."   +++    Regards5  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantn Compaq Canada Corp.1 Professional Services  Voice: 613-592-4660- Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----G From: Doc.Cypher [mailto:Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]]=20@ Sent: March 11, 2002 4:18 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come# Cc: mail2news@freedom.gmsociety.org # Subject: VMS conferencing software.      Hi,r  C Is there any freeware text conferencing software for VMS, and if soL where can I get my hands on it?a  F PHONE is perfect for one-to-one communication, but how do you go aboutH having a group of VMS users chatting together? I've heard rumours of IRC$ daemons for VMS, but never seen one.     Doc. --=20 6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it. ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum. http://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 05:12:04 -0800) From: P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young)r# Subject: Re: VMS sys admin salaries = Message-ID: <55f85d77.0203120512.3789c32d@posting.google.com>a   Luik Linda-p14175 <Linda.Luik@motorola.com> wrote in message news:<7B1FDD0C38B3D51188E000D0B782DF4202503961@az33exm21.corp.mot.com>...  4 > Junior Network Administration Specialists $34,150   > Which is more than I earn translated to AUS$. Although OpenVMS? system admin skills are a given as well as Tru64 and quite somep? PC skills - Oracle as well (Network Admin is as you would guess  a big part of this).  ? Then again I live in Australia and everything costs less. And I 2 thought NSW was expensive (which it is) - *SHEESH*  ? **Sigh** - I'm *VERY* thankful I live in a house valued at nears? US $1MIL on Sydney harbour and have next to free air fares (notS5 that I have the time, or the $ to use them overseas).k  3 I won't go into either of these circumstances here.h  @ No - I'm not swapping!!, but - the Sydney summer is up for grabs% as far as I am concerned - I hate it.    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 06:17:14 -0800. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman), Subject: Re: What return codes mean success?= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0203120617.63aae32e@posting.google.com>L  U Jan-Erik Sderholm <aaa@aaa.com> wrote in message news:<3C7E7243.BCF96EAB@aaa.com>...  [snip]D > I'v written a short DCL hack to display the different parts of the > status message.  >  > $! P1 = status value > $!  > $ mess_severity = p1 .and. %X7) > $ mess_numb     = (p1 .and. %X7FF8) / 8s- > $ mess_facspec  = (p1 .and. %X8000) / 32768d/ > $ mess_facnumb  = (p1 .and. %X7FF000) / 65536l3 > $ mess_custfac  = (p1 .and. %X800000) / 134217728 4 > $ mess_inhibdis = (p1 .and. %X1000000) / 268435456 > $!C > $ write sys$output "Message severity            : ",mess_severityi? > $ write sys$output "Message number              : ",mess_numb B > $ write sys$output "Message fac specific        : ",mess_facspecB > $ write sys$output "Message facility number     : ",mess_facnumbB > $ write sys$output "Message customer facility   : ",mess_custfacC > $ write sys$output "Message inhibit dislay      : ",mess_inhibdisd >   C Thanks for the code! However, there is a slight error in your code.lF The masks for facnumb, custfac, and inhibdis are off by one byte. Here is (I hope) the corrected code:t   $! P1 = status value $!& $ mess_severity =  p1 .and.        %X7+ $ mess_numb     = (p1 .and.     %X7FF8) / 8t/ $ mess_facspec  = (p1 .and.     %X8000) / 32768s/ $ mess_facnumb  = (p1 .and. %X07FF0000) / 65536 3 $ mess_custfac  = (p1 .and. %X08000000) / 134217728l3 $ mess_inhibdis = (p1 .and. %X10000000) / 268435456- $!A $ write sys$output "Message severity            : ",mess_severitye= $ write sys$output "Message number              : ",mess_numbT@ $ write sys$output "Message fac specific        : ",mess_facspec@ $ write sys$output "Message facility number     : ",mess_facnumb@ $ write sys$output "Message customer facility   : ",mess_custfacA $ write sys$output "Message inhibit dislay      : ",mess_inhibdisa $ EXIT   [snip]   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman % afeldman sdivbaud gfigroup asduvb comn5 "Help me help you help me help you."  --Bob Patterson?   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 06:57:35 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>5 Subject: Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?mC Message-ID: <zFhj8.190072$7a1.16949584@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>2  / "VMS Fan" <VMSfan@hotmail.com> wrote in message.7 news:d0a53e6e.0203112109.13ad28ca@posting.google.com...?< > "john smith" <Xudongzong.0974@rogers.com> wrote in message- news:<DnKi8.66806$xG.28928@news2.bloor.is>...yL > > Looks like have a lot concerns with OpenVMS future. I am wondering if we can)K > > set  up a new company can buy OpenVMS from Compaq. So we do not need toM > > worry about too much.> > >a5 > > Will it cost 2 billions? Not sure if is feasible.e >fD > I doubt HPaq would sell VMS like DEC sold PDP-11s to Mentec.  MoreH > likely they'd end-of-life it like the HP e3000 & MPE/iX.  I also doubt > they'd open-source it. >iA > I think the only viable option will turn out to be for the useroB > community and folks who love what VMS stands for to rally for anA > effort like the GNU Project plus Linux.  (That means compilers,aC > kernel, utilities, RTLs, and key layered products.  It won't be arA > small project, but I see it as the only way to ensure long-term_
 > viability.)s  H That, or band together to ensure that current Compaq management gets theG boot and is replaced by people who will listen to their most profitableiA customers.  I suspect the latter would be a hell of a lot easier.A   >aD > But I don't see just duplicating VMS in open source as the answer,	 > either.d >oC > VMS is seen as an ancient operating system, of little interest tonH > folks today.  Computer Science students don't know beans about it, but? > they "know" it is "bad", or, at best, unimportant.  Go to anyIB > bookstore and you can easily measure what is seen as interestingB > technology today, by simply measuring shelf presence.  Linux, inF > contrast to VMS, is seen as new and exciting, even though it's based, > on Unix technology that is older than VMS.  K While I tend to resist the platitude that perception is everything, it *is*- significant.   > C > A brand-new operating system seems the best option.  Build on the G > historical strengths of VMS, like clustering, high availability, userpC > friendliness, reliability, careful & logical design, high-quality H > engineering effort, excellent documentation, and upward compatibility,E > but target today's market needs (e.g the Internet, IP networks, Web0G > interfaces, home users' desktop software needs), and at the same timeRE > dramatically eliminate today's biggest market gripes (poor softwareV@ > reliability, too many reboots & re-installs, viruses and other > security issues),   H I hope the above isn't meant to imply that VMS doesn't *already* addressK those last few concerns.  In fact, the lack of the 'standard' complement ofdJ desktop applications may be the only conspicuous gap.  That said, there isJ of course major potential benefit in a from-the-ground-up reimplementationI aimed at current/future needs that can dispense with the inevitable cruftoI acquired over 20+ years (but of course major potential risk as well untils the new bugs are shaken out).d  5  while focusing on today's hardware technology (IA-32sD > and probably AMD-64 as the CPU focus, but allowing ports to POWER,E > SPARC, Alpha, etc. as people wish, just like Linux does; USB ports; @ > mainstream video adapters; IDE disks in addition to SCSI & FC; > Firewire; InfiniBand, etc.). >nD > With a new operating system, one could fix many limitations of VMSG > that we've had to work around or just learned to live with, like poorsF > SMP scalability (that's really what Galaxy and partitions have endedC > up being mostly about with regard to VMS, if you think about it),f  J Without suggesting that VMS constitutes ultimate perfection in this area IJ would question whether it's practical to make an OS much more SMP-scalableH than VMS for the most part already is (though KSR devotees could rightlyH argue that significant improvements *are* still possible).  Galaxy seems@ much more about efficient dynamic reallocation of resources in aG 'consolidated' server than about addressing SMP limitations, especiallydG given the very-low-latency inter-cluster-node interconnects that eithereG already exist (MC) or soon will (Infiniband) that could address any SMP- limitations nearly as well.-    theE > need to reboot to install patches and updates (we can't even reloado4 > drivers on Alpha today) or add or remove hardware,  L Just how big a problem is this in practice?  It's not as if VMS needed to beJ patched with anything like the frequency of, say, Windows, and the rollingJ upgrades that clusters allow alleviate much of the remaining difficulties.    the tendency toE > crash when problems arise (how about an OS which never crashes, butrC > instead has extensive and stubborn recovery code and self-healingm
 > abilities),.  F Such an OS would scare the hell out of me:  it's hard enough to make aK system fairly reliably fail-fast without requiring that it have the psychicBJ ability to heal whatever damage may have been done to its guts by aberrantE internal software or hardware (the latter being the main cause of VMSsI crashes, I suspect).  I would *much* rather have a system fail under mosthJ such circumstances (not all - IBM has gone significantly farther down thatJ road - but likely a high enough percentage that pursuing the rest wouldn'tK be cost-effective) than trust that it could patch things up as cleanly as a- clean restart would.  7  lack of process shadowing, lack of checkpoint/restart,uE > easy portability to other platforms by virtue of being written in a0D > high-level language, presence of a logical volume manager to allow< > things like expanding the size of volumes on-the-fly, etc.  H In sum, it's not clear that it would be that difficult to add all of theL above to today's VMS, and I seriously question whether there's the chance ofL a snowball in hell that the kind of reimplementation you suggest will occur.J That's why I suspect that efforts should either be devoted to changing theE ownership of VMS to something much more responsive or migrating VMS'skF strengths (and such new features) to some other OS that *is* much moreL responsive (Linux or *BSD being the most obvious candidates) and already has a constituency to build upon.-   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 07:48:59 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r5 Subject: Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?n3 Message-ID: <krvJcbgeKoax@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3C8D77B6.7BB29673@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  M > Carly had no problems killing MPE without even donating it to others to get. > anything in return.o  G    All she could get in return was continued competition for her Wintel D    and HP-UX sales.  I think the MPE numbers for systems and profit G    margin were orders of magnitude below those for VMS.  By killing MPEiB    HP can expect to get some fraction of the former MPE customers,B    though many will revolt at first.  Trying to keep MPE going wasB    getting to the point of potentially costing what it brought in,#    making it a non-profit business.k  E    If VMS ever gets into the same boat I expect similar behavior.  AshE    long as VMS profits are at the size they are, and keeping it goingWE    is as cheap as it it (the port to IA-64 estimate I've heard kicked"G    around is order of magnitude 0.1% of the annual profit), the company "    will be glad to have the money.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2002 13:48:43 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) 5 Subject: Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?y, Message-ID: <a6l0vr$2ti4$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3C8D116C.BAB3C897@videotron.ca>,0  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: |>E |> The other possibility is to declare VMS mature, sell it to Mentec l  G Where did you get the idea that Mentec had any interest in VMS at all??    bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   h   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:09:51 GMTe# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>c5 Subject: Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?t/ Message-ID: <3Toj8.3369$_L.1063@news1.bloor.is>l  : "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@free.fr> wrote in message! news:3C8B915E.3C378555@free.fr... K > People, you are driving me nuts with this stupidity about "a lot concernsC with > OpenVMS future". >l >sL > 4. COMPAQ has a unbreakable agreement with the DOD to continue VMS support fort > ten years  >'  B Yes, COE-DII (or whatever the acronym is) holds for the US DefenseI Department, a relatively price-insensitive buyer. Before you jump down myiK throat about that last comment, consider that the DOD, NSA, CIA, etc...have J to have 'certified' systems, and in the case of DOD (JSTARS, etc...) theseJ are effectively embedded systems. You don't just swap stuff out a softwareK architecture like you do memory boards. So DOD et. al. are stuck for a longPI time. And as long as the military relies on a VMS-based system, Compaq/HPoL can charge them the full cost of everything even if the military is the lastI user standing. It'll take the military years to balk at paying outrageousr costs.    J Commercial businesses will be stuck at a price that will be just below the> threshold of pain, but since the penalties to business will be? career-limiting rather than life-threatening, expect to see theiI decision-makers who value their careers run with the rest of the lemmings-1 off the unix cliff rather than sticking with VMS.:    
 John Smith (the real one)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:55:38 -0800g' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>A5 Subject: Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?r+ Message-ID: <3C8E330A.4804D61B@caltech.edu>f   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:e  K > Well, I kinda doubt that either HWP or CPQ would be interested in sellingwN > VMS on the cheap, thereby nuking a revenue stream of a couple of billion USD+ > per year, and significant margin as well.N  N Perhaps they would consider spinning it off and retaining a large chunk of the stock?  L Compaq (or was it DEC at the time?) transferred AltaVista to CMGI for mostlyN stock - which later became worthless.  And they dumped a lot of resources intoM API and held stock in that, which also in the end turned out to be a terribletM investment.  So clearly the Compaq bean counters are happiest when convertingaI valuable assets into worthless paper.  Spinning of OpenVMS into a failingsP company should make them drool.  All we have to do is convince them that OpenVMS Inc.I can't possibly succeed on its own and they'll spin it off in a heartbeat.a  O Compaq is also very fond of shifting production to other companies.  It doesn'tf make itsL own PCs and it has given away (near as anyone can tell) all its intellectual property in N compilers and the Alpha to Intel.  So in a classic example of the tail wagging the dog,M Process could offer to take VMS off of Compaq's hands "for a consideration". l Compaq wouldP receive in exchange a nonexclusive license to sell OpenVMS.  Just show Curly all	 the moneye3 he'd save if he didn't have to invest in OpenVMS!!!r  nE > A shame that the OS is not promoted and marketed more aggressively.t  K A shame that the entire Compaq board isn't swallowed by a black hole.  Boths
 scenarios areM' equally desirable and equally unlikely.e     Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:03:44 GMTV* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>5 Subject: Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?,A Message-ID: <Qxqj8.53616$uv5.4270524@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>p  : "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:krvJcbgeKoax@eisner.encompasserve.org... 7 > In article <3C8D77B6.7BB29673@videotron.ca>, JF Mezein& <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:   ...f  G >    If VMS ever gets into the same boat I expect similar behavior.  AsyG >    long as VMS profits are at the size they are, and keeping it goingoG >    is as cheap as it it (the port to IA-64 estimate I've heard kicked1I >    around is order of magnitude 0.1% of the annual profit), the companyj$ >    will be glad to have the money.  B That suggests that the port will be completed in a year by about 4K engineers:  I think you dropped close to two orders of magnitude somewhere.o   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:14:36 -0800I# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 5 Subject: RE: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?t9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEGCEFAA.tom@kednos.com>r   > -----Original Message-----0 > From: David Mathog [mailto:mathog@caltech.edu]' > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 8:56 AME > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comc7 > Subject: Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?3 >  >  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > C > > Well, I kinda doubt that either HWP or CPQ would be interested D > in sellingB > > VMS on the cheap, thereby nuking a revenue stream of a couple  > of billion USD- > > per year, and significant margin as well.  > D > Perhaps they would consider spinning it off and retaining a large  > chunk of the > stock? > D > Compaq (or was it DEC at the time?) transferred AltaVista to CMGI  > for mostly  ; They did get stock, but they also got $80 million, I think.   B > stock - which later became worthless.  And they dumped a lot of  > resources intoB > API and held stock in that, which also in the end turned out to  > be a terribler@ > investment.  So clearly the Compaq bean counters are happiest  > when converting K > valuable assets into worthless paper.  Spinning of OpenVMS into a failing-A > company should make them drool.  All we have to do is convince t > them that OpenVMS- > Inc.K > can't possibly succeed on its own and they'll spin it off in a heartbeat.( > ; > Compaq is also very fond of shifting production to other e > companies.  It doesn't
 > make itsB > own PCs and it has given away (near as anyone can tell) all its  > intellectual
 > property in@D > compilers and the Alpha to Intel.  So in a classic example of the  > tail wagging
 > the dog,? > Process could offer to take VMS off of Compaq's hands "for a   > consideration".  > Compaq wouldD > receive in exchange a nonexclusive license to sell OpenVMS.  Just  > show Curly all > the money 5 > he'd save if he didn't have to invest in OpenVMS!!!0 >   G > > A shame that the OS is not promoted and marketed more aggressively.  > B > A shame that the entire Compaq board isn't swallowed by a black 
 > hole.  Botht > scenarios are ) > equally desirable and equally unlikely.u >  > 
 > Regards, >  > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:39:14 -0800"' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>f5 Subject: Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq? + Message-ID: <3C8E4B52.67781035@caltech.edu>H   Tom Linden wrote:i  E > > Compaq (or was it DEC at the time?) transferred AltaVista to CMGIe > > for mostly > = > They did get stock, but they also got $80 million, I think.!  : That's not very much cash.  Surely some venture capitalist; might put up the $$$ to leverage a cash cow deal like this.0< Seems a lot safer than the dot bombs they were investing in.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:49:54 -0800 (PST)p. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>5 Subject: Re: Why not we guys buy OpenVMS from Compaq?,@ Message-ID: <20020312184954.72273.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com>   What about Paul Allen ???t     Regardsi   FC m, --- David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu> wrote: > Tom Linden wrote:l > 5 > > > Compaq (or was it DEC at the time?) transferred  > AltaVista to CMGIi > > > for mostly > > 6 > > They did get stock, but they also got $80 million,
 > I think. > 1 > That's not very much cash.  Surely some ventureo > capitalist2 > might put up the $$$ to leverage a cash cow deal > like this.0 > Seems a lot safer than the dot bombs they were > investing in.y > 
 > Regards, >  > David Mathog > mathog@caltech.edu     =====. ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil6 fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?7 Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email!  http://mail.yahoo.com/   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:36:33 +0100 (MET)C9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> I Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC'sP; Message-ID: <01KF9ODLR4GI8Y996Y@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>i  / > > What about creating a VMS-like OS for PC's?i > @ > Microsoft tried it. The result was Windows NT and its progeny.  D Care to back this up?  What is "VMS-like" in NT?  Sure, I know that G Cutler developed NT, but he left VMS after version 1.0 or whatever.  I lE think Micro$oft intentionally exaggerated his role in VMS to make NT lG look better.  NT is a point-and-click Windows-based OS.  Inside, it is lD vulnerable to various problems in many of the same ways its Windows  predecessors are.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:25:42 +0000n( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>I Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC'se) Message-ID: <3C8DD7A6.5D5308FA@127.0.0.1>e   Phillip Helbig wrote:  > 1 > > > What about creating a VMS-like OS for PC's?  > >eB > > Microsoft tried it. The result was Windows NT and its progeny. > E > Care to back this up?  What is "VMS-like" in NT?  Sure, I know thatnH > Cutler developed NT, but he left VMS after version 1.0 or whatever.  IF > think Micro$oft intentionally exaggerated his role in VMS to make NTH > look better.  NT is a point-and-click Windows-based OS.  Inside, it isE > vulnerable to various problems in many of the same ways its Windowsi > predecessors are.i  F Phillip, I can recommend "Windows NT for OpenVMS professionals", DavidD Solomon with Debra Wasserman. Digital Press 1996 ISBN 1-55555-122-6,
 EY-T856E-DP .g  H Reading this, it does show how the kernel of VMS and NT are similar. TheG question you'll probably ask yourself is "what went wrong?" and then beu grateful for OpenVMS.    -- g( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comn   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:53:28 +0100 (MET)l9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> I Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC'sy; Message-ID: <01KF9SZJHKU48ZOX9C@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>d  G > Reading this, it does show how the kernel of VMS and NT are similar. e  I That might be true, but is largely irrelevant in the context of the post g I was following up.    > TheuI > question you'll probably ask yourself is "what went wrong?" and then be  > grateful for OpenVMS.h  F Am I a cynic or a realist if I say that what went wrong was Microsoft H itself?  Lack of resources is obviously not the case.  It seems part of / the business model to produce unreliable stuff.o  G Remember the code which contained the "Netscape engineers are weenies" OI comment?  How could ANYone think this is a serious company when it comes   to writing quality software.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:07:25 +0000 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>I Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC'so) Message-ID: <3C8DFD8D.304C8533@127.0.0.1>t   Phillip Helbig wrote:a > H > > Reading this, it does show how the kernel of VMS and NT are similar. > J > That might be true, but is largely irrelevant in the context of the post > I was following up.u  D But there are lumps of NT that look like lumps of VMS. The VMS hangs+ together well, the NT lumps seem to, err...   o > > ThedK > > question you'll probably ask yourself is "what went wrong?" and then bes > > grateful for OpenVMS.i > G > Am I a cynic or a realist if I say that what went wrong was MicrosoftaI > itself?  Lack of resources is obviously not the case.  It seems part ofu1 > the business model to produce unreliable stuff.  > H > Remember the code which contained the "Netscape engineers are weenies"J > comment?  How could ANYone think this is a serious company when it comes > to writing quality software.   I've a couple of theories. w  H One is to make the M$ associated (layered!?) products more attractive by burying 'clever' hooks, andn  H Two, weakening other elements making the third party application writers job more difficult.c  8 - all performed with the unreliability you've mentioned.  G If their philosophy is to say "hey the next version is even better than F the last" then that revenue generating bubble is getting weaker by the
 'release'.  C Having said that, it is also a hostile environment. Compaq have themG luxury of having a published and trusted matrix of operational softwareb. for VMS, options and hardware configurations.   H M$, pick any hardware and software you like, it's why 'plug and pray' is so apt.u  G The philosophy of VMS is entirely different from any software I've seenuF out of M$. (I think this is where we agree. I'm probably rambling too,D and as this is just my opinion, I'm not being paid to provide it...) -- e( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:16:16 GMTo* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>I Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC'slC Message-ID: <Acnj8.355034$Aw2.29008612@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>k  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KF9ODLR4GI8Y996Y@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...v1 > > > What about creating a VMS-like OS for PC's?t > >sB > > Microsoft tried it. The result was Windows NT and its progeny. >uE > Care to back this up?  What is "VMS-like" in NT?  Sure, I know thateH > Cutler developed NT, but he left VMS after version 1.0 or whatever.  IF > think Micro$oft intentionally exaggerated his role in VMS to make NT > look better.  J Typical uninformed Usenet baseless opinion.  I would have expected better.   - bill   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:40:11 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> I Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC'ss; Message-ID: <01KF9Z00ZY1W8ZOX9C@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e  H > "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message7 > news:01KF9ODLR4GI8Y996Y@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...n > 3 > > > > What about creating a VMS-like OS for PC's?  > > >sD > > > Microsoft tried it. The result was Windows NT and its progeny. > >-6 > > Care to back this up?  What is "VMS-like" in NT?   > > F > > Sure, I know that                                                A > > Cutler developed NT, e > F > > but he left VMS after version 1.0 or whatever.                   B >  > > I H > > think Micro$oft intentionally exaggerated his role in VMS to make NTF > > look better.                                                     C  L > Typical uninformed Usenet baseless opinion.  I would have expected better.   Which?  A, B, or C?a   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 06:06:51 -0800. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)I Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC'sh= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0203120606.3cecee60@posting.google.com>   u "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<S_ej8.425265$eS3.32206914@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>... = > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messageD9 > news:b096a4ee.0203111816.3b3cf1a4@posting.google.com...d > > Hello fellow VMSers!!! > >h/ > > Check out this Op-Ed in The New York Times:t > >t= > >     http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/11/opinion/11ZITT.html  > >S [snip]  L > The author seems to be confusing two different kinds of 'reliability':  onN > the one hand, being able to run whatever a user wants it to run (IMO a plus,I > though anathema to those who would like to control how people use theirdG > PCs), and on the other the ability to avoid crashes, corruption, etc.1    E Thank you for putting it so well. And thanks to other respondents for:6 their ideas. I will try to write a response to send toF letters@nytimes.com but you are all welcome to do so too. Most, if notB all, of you are more articulate than I and could therefore write a better letter. Thanks.   > >iA > > Is this what most people think about computers? that they are H > > unavoidably buggy? What about creating a VMS-like OS for PC's? Would > > that not solve the problem?' > M > No, it would not.  While the article's author created a mish-mash by mixing K > in the issue of system stability with that of content use-control, as youtM > state the *main* thrust of the article is the latter and has very little toiI > do at all with the underlying stability of the OS (or 'unreliability of  > PCs').    D I guess I was too vague!!! I meant "Would that not solve the problem@ of computer stability without affecting what software can be run2 (except affecting malicious software, of course)?"    M > VMS would be just as objectionable to the media conglomerates as Windows is N > unless it incorporated content-use controls (and Windows continued not to doL > so).  Conversely, if Windows incorporated content-use controls it would beL > just as acceptable to those conglomerates as VMS with content-use controls > would be.     > I'm not interested in the conglomerates' problems, though I amD interested in the problem of fair compensation for people who createF informational work (I prefer that to the ridiculous term "intellectualD property". I mean, so much of it is anything *but* intellectual.) MyE main point was the confusion you mention above (the confusion between 6 OS stability and the ability to run "any old program".   Thanks all for your responses.   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmano4 "Help me help you help me help you"  --Bob Patterson   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:45:34 -0500l% From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com>aI Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's / Message-ID: <u8s8kvtibgt939@news.supernews.com>   F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KF9SZJHKU48ZOX9C@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...rH > > Reading this, it does show how the kernel of VMS and NT are similar. >aJ > That might be true, but is largely irrelevant in the context of the post > I was following up.e >s > > ThewK > > question you'll probably ask yourself is "what went wrong?" and then bem > > grateful for OpenVMS.i >oG > Am I a cynic or a realist if I say that what went wrong was MicrosoftyI > itself?  Lack of resources is obviously not the case.  It seems part ofo1 > the business model to produce unreliable stuff.  >   J What went wrong is the environment.  PC users expect to be able to installJ any piece of software they may find on the internet.  If they were running/ VMS they would want write access to SYS$SYSTEM!k  H PC users expect to be able to buy any old piece of hardware at the localI computer store, plug it in and run reliably.   When was the last time youh+ installed a 3rd party device driver on VMS?s  K NT is capable of being a secure, reliable O/S but you have to manage it theg same way you manage OpenVMS.  H > Remember the code which contained the "Netscape engineers are weenies"J > comment?  How could ANYone think this is a serious company when it comes > to writing quality software.  I Not that different than the chip that said "VAX - when you care enough tod steal the very best".e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:12:28 GMTQ1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>pI Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC'sg9 Message-ID: <MNpj8.18680$44.3896975@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>7  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KF9ODLR4GI8Y996Y@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...p1 > > > What about creating a VMS-like OS for PC's?s > >aB > > Microsoft tried it. The result was Windows NT and its progeny. >tE > Care to back this up?  What is "VMS-like" in NT?  Sure, I know thataH > Cutler developed NT, but he left VMS after version 1.0 or whatever.  IF > think Micro$oft intentionally exaggerated his role in VMS to make NT > look better.  K Cutler did in fact leave VMS development pretty early on (I believe he wentiH off to write VAXeln) but in the mid-80's worked on MICA, the VMS-like OSE that was to have run on the PRISM RISC processor. PRISM was cancelledsJ (hardware was done, OS and infrastructure software was not) in March 1988,K DEC got into bed with Mips to create a RISC strategy, and Cutler headed foroG Redmond. Windows NT made its debut in May 1993, and DEC soon found thatMG there were a LOT of similarities between MICA and NT. Right down to the , comments in some of the source code modules.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:56:35 GMTi* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>I Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's C Message-ID: <7rqj8.355884$Aw2.29164184@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>n  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KF9Z00ZY1W8ZOX9C@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...oJ > > "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message9 > > news:01KF9ODLR4GI8Y996Y@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...o > > 5 > > > > > What about creating a VMS-like OS for PC's?o > > > >nF > > > > Microsoft tried it. The result was Windows NT and its progeny. > > >o6 > > > Care to back this up?  What is "VMS-like" in NT? > > >oH > > > Sure, I know that                                                A > > > Cutler developed NT, > >oH > > > but he left VMS after version 1.0 or whatever.                   B > >w > > > IyJ > > > think Micro$oft intentionally exaggerated his role in VMS to make NTH > > > look better.                                                     C >tF > > Typical uninformed Usenet baseless opinion.  I would have expected better.@ >  > Which?  A, B, or C?   H 1.  'What is "VMS-like" in NT?'  This has been covered multiple times in" c.o.v. just in the past two years.  G 2. ' ... but he left VMS after version 1.0 or whatever.'  'Or whatever'eL indeed, assuming the implication is that this somehow reduced his competenceK to develop another VMS-like system.  As Terry just observed, he moved on to I create VAXeln (or the PL/1, and C, compilers - I forget which came first) L and then to head the DECWest project to create the VMS successor (along withJ the VAX successor hardware to run it on).  Meanwhile, he still contributedJ to VMS code development, though hardly at the same rate he did when he was in charge of all of it.1  K 3.  'I think Micro$oft intentionally exaggerated his role in VMS to make NTRL look better.'  Aside from any question of MS's intent, it would be difficultG to exaggerate Cutler's role in VMS, period:  though perhaps a few othermH people made comparable contributions to its overall early development, I= doubt that *anyone* else made comparable contributions to V1.   L Cutler rode herd on NT in much the same manner he did on VMS V1, but tightlyJ controlled only the core of the product (though he picked up/demanded moreI control over more of it as time went on IIRC, it wasn't quite of the same-J calibre).  The core of NT is (or at least was) reminiscent of VMS not onlyH in its form but also in its quality.  However, there's a great deal moreJ stuffed into the NT kernel on top of that core than into VMS's, and CutlerF didn't control a great deal of that in anything like the same level of detail.a  J So NT is a mix of very-much-VMS-like core (though how 'pure' that core hasE been kept over time may be questionable) and much-more-Microsoft-like G trimmings (unfortunately, also sharing the kernel with that core).  The A result is that NT as a whole has nothing like VMS's stability (or L implementation/API discipline) - but to suggest that this is Cutler's fault,L or that he was less than fully capable of creating another system comparable" to VMS, is, as I said, uninformed.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:12:01 -0800g# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>nI Subject: RE: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's_9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEGBEFAA.tom@kednos.com>l   > -----Original Message-----1 > From: Bill Todd [mailto:billtodd@metrocast.net]-' > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 8:57 AM6 > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComiJ > Subject: Re: [OT] NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's >E >i >sH > "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message7 > news:01KF9Z00ZY1W8ZOX9C@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...iL > > > "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message; > > > news:01KF9ODLR4GI8Y996Y@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...  > > > 7 > > > > > > What about creating a VMS-like OS for PC's?r	 > > > > > H > > > > > Microsoft tried it. The result was Windows NT and its progeny. > > > >T8 > > > > Care to back this up?  What is "VMS-like" in NT? > > > >,J > > > > Sure, I know that                                                A > > > > Cutler developed NT, > > >-J > > > > but he left VMS after version 1.0 or whatever.                   B > > >s	 > > > > I.L > > > > think Micro$oft intentionally exaggerated his role in VMS to make NTJ > > > > look better.                                                     C > > H > > > Typical uninformed Usenet baseless opinion.  I would have expected	 > better.e > >w > > Which?  A, B, or C?g >.J > 1.  'What is "VMS-like" in NT?'  This has been covered multiple times in$ > c.o.v. just in the past two years. >aI > 2. ' ... but he left VMS after version 1.0 or whatever.'  'Or whatever'eC > indeed, assuming the implication is that this somehow reduced his  > competenceA > to develop another VMS-like system.  As Terry just observed, he 
 > moved on toiK > create VAXeln (or the PL/1, and C, compilers - I forget which came first)V  G It was PL/I (not PL/1) which led to VCG which led to C and a few othersID Actually PL/I was licensed from Translation Systems a predecessor toB Kednos and was developed by Bob Freiburghouse who had led compiler developmentsK at Multics.  So what Cutler and crew did was to write a backend and this iscJ documented in the Book "Engineering a Compiler, VAX-11 Code Generation and" Optimization"  Digital press 1982.  B > and then to head the DECWest project to create the VMS successor
 > (along withuL > the VAX successor hardware to run it on).  Meanwhile, he still contributedL > to VMS code development, though hardly at the same rate he did when he was > in charge of all of it.f  K IIRC, they did some work on porting to a 68000 based system, and I think itt was done in Pascal   > B > 3.  'I think Micro$oft intentionally exaggerated his role in VMS > to make NTA > look better.'  Aside from any question of MS's intent, it wouldo > be difficultI > to exaggerate Cutler's role in VMS, period:  though perhaps a few otheriJ > people made comparable contributions to its overall early development, I? > doubt that *anyone* else made comparable contributions to V1.n >eB > Cutler rode herd on NT in much the same manner he did on VMS V1,
 > but tightly L > controlled only the core of the product (though he picked up/demanded moreK > control over more of it as time went on IIRC, it wasn't quite of the same.L > calibre).  The core of NT is (or at least was) reminiscent of VMS not onlyJ > in its form but also in its quality.  However, there's a great deal moreL > stuffed into the NT kernel on top of that core than into VMS's, and CutlerH > didn't control a great deal of that in anything like the same level of	 > detail.o >wL > So NT is a mix of very-much-VMS-like core (though how 'pure' that core hasG > been kept over time may be questionable) and much-more-Microsoft-likeiI > trimmings (unfortunately, also sharing the kernel with that core).  ThetC > result is that NT as a whole has nothing like VMS's stability (ort> > implementation/API discipline) - but to suggest that this is > Cutler's fault, C > or that he was less than fully capable of creating another system  > comparable$ > to VMS, is, as I said, uninformed. >  > - bill >  >n >"   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:06:45 -0600s: From: "Scandora, Anthony \(35048\)" <Scandora@cmt.anl.gov>I Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC'sv+ Message-ID: <a6lcj6$e5p$1@milo.mcs.anl.gov>a  < "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message! news:3C8D84F1.FE8808A4@fsi.net...f > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:y > > ...tL > > Which is too bad... a reliable alternative to Windows would put the fear of0 > > God in a certain ISV in Redmond, Washington. >tF > Say, "Linux", "KDE", "Koffice", "Gnome", "OpenOffice", and others...  L Those all have promise and some day might be able to compete with Windows onF the desktop.  They have a long way to go before the average person canJ install them, and whether legal, moral, or otherwise, Microsoft Office hasL defined the standard for document exchange.  Many would-be competitors claimJ to read and write .doc and .xls files, but none has done it well enough toJ get a significant market share.  The only way to break Microsoft's desktopB monopoly is for a lot of talented and motivated people to carve upI OpenOffice chores and make it easy to install, reliable, and support.doc,oI .xls, and .ppt files close to 100% compatible with Microsoft's, includingp full support of VBA.  1 Tony Scandora, Argonne National Lab, 630-252-7541. scandora@cmt.anl.gov   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 09:36:22 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)I Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0203120936.1655c0ab@posting.google.com>s  r "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<bdej8.15801$44.3516132@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>...= > "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in messagei9 > news:b096a4ee.0203111816.3b3cf1a4@posting.google.com...T > > Hello fellow VMSers!!! > >o/ > > Check out this Op-Ed in The New York Times:t > >t= > >     http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/11/opinion/11ZITT.html1 > > 3 > > I quote a small part of it (fair use, I think):B > >y > >dA > > Is this what most people think about computers? that they aretB > > unavoidably buggy? What about creating a VMS-like OS for PC's? > @ > Microsoft tried it. The result was Windows NT and its progeny. >  > >Would > > that not solve the problem?G >  > It hasn't yet! >  > >c% > > Does this not deserve a response?  > M > Yep. VMS *and desktop applications* on IPF. Of course, it'll be a few yearsNH > before 64-bit desktops generate much volume, hence there won't be muchN > reason for personal productivity app developers to invest their resources in > a VMS/IPF port.v > M > Which is too bad... a reliable alternative to Windows would put the fear of . > God in a certain ISV in Redmond, Washington.  @ I always said if Bill Gates was smart he would of put windows on: top of vms instead of dos or trying to do nt ... vms is anB alternative now ... com and ericoms vt session inside html browser? are a good start, but all you need is a simple way to replace a B vt with a pc as a client ... no vt emulation, vt windoze sessions!   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:08:39 +0100 (MET)h9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>cI Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's2; Message-ID: <01KFA8E2B9JG8ZOX9C@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>.  B > I always said if Bill Gates was smart he would of put windows on3 > top of vms instead of dos or trying to do nt ...    F Bill Gates IS smart.  By having an unreliable system which constantly C requires updates to be purchased, he makes a lot of money which he   wouldn't if the system were OK.s   > vms is angD > alternative now ... com and ericoms vt session inside html browserA > are a good start, but all you need is a simple way to replace ahD > vt with a pc as a client ... no vt emulation, vt windoze sessions!   What's the point?  Use a VT!   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:59:33 -0500 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>rI Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC'sm2 Message-ID: <hsrj8.882$fL6.20609@news.cpqcorp.net>  D I'm not sure that he misses the point.  While we wouldn't tolerate aH refridgerator that crashed periodically and needed to be rebooted - theyH also don't come with widgets that lets the owner turn it into a bathtub.H That is, it is a single-purpose device made to do a small number of very well defined things.  J The NT kernel is a very good piece of work.  But on top of that is layeredK less and less reliable software.  You can fault the Windows interfaces thataK are layered on top of NT as being poorly designed and implemented.  You canoK *also* fault the wild success of Windows with applications that vary widely  in how well they are written.c  L Software is unavoidably buggy.  That is because who and how it is written isK not subject to many controls.  A poorly written, but highly useful piece of I software might be bought by millions of users, and by the sheer number ofeH users make itself highly resistant to being "fixed".  This is exacly the, place Windows and Microsoft find themselves.  G Knowing what we all know today, lets assume Microsoft wanted to rewriteoH Windows to be more robust, and more secure.  How many of the millions ofF users would be happy when then needed to not only buy a new version ofH Windows - but had to repurchase every application?  How many applicationJ developers would be happy about reinvesting in rewrites of their software?  L I'm not entirely sure that you can start out to write a software environmentI that is reliable, robust, extensible, and long-lived - and be successful.pK First, it takes a lot of time and planning to do it before you ever write ayJ line of code (let alone start to sell it) - something that the market doesK NOT value.  It is also next to impossible to guess at the needs are for theTI environment in 5, 10, or 20 years.  Sometimes just being extensible isn'ts7 enough, and you need to be able to throw old ideas out.B  K Ideally, you would design a software environment somewhat like a fancy homevL theater receiver.  With well defined inputs and outputs (ie the API's).  YouA would test to make sure that no input could cause the receiver tolK malfunction, or that any other device connected to it would become unusableuJ if a bad device (software application) is plugged in.  You would also thenL provide new input and output interfaces as needed, and as devices (software)J evolve.  You could throw away the entire insides of the box if you need toL start from scratch - as long as every behavior of the inputs and outputs wasH well defined and reproduced on the new box, and there was no reliance on side effects, or back doors.  J The problem starts when you allow other parties to create input and outputK connections.  You lose control of the quality.  But if you don't let othershK in, you also run the risk (if you happen to be successful) of becomming (or C accused of being)  a monopolist.  Is the web browser a input/outputTG interface?  Or is it a user device (application).  Slippery slope time.g  L Is VMS "less buggy" - sure.  It also has millions of less lines of code thatL run on it, is used by millions less people, and is significantly less usefulK to many people than a $599 PC running Windows XP.  Some of it's reliabilitytA *is* the result of better, more thoughtful interfaces, and better  engineering practices.  H But let's say VMS was running on a $599 PC, and we had extended the userK interfaces to eclipse the Windows interface, and the various UNIXs (which IsJ count Linux) X11 interfaces.  To many, its reliability might still be onlyG as good as the weakest piece of software.  Just because the applicationcE crashes instead of hanging the Windows session, or the Blue Screen ofmH Death - doesn't make it "better".  I have complained just as loudly whenJ MSWord has "lost" the edits I just spent the last hour working on, as whenL Outlook has siezed my PC.  A poorly written 3rd party driver can still crashJ the system, just as a 3rd party privleged library can run amok.  And thereL are reasons that all 3rd party software can't be simple user mode libraries.   _Fredl  $ Alan E. Feldman wrote in message ... >Hello fellow VMSers!!!w >e, >Check out this Op-Ed in The New York Times: >V: >    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/11/opinion/11ZITT.html >R0 >I quote a small part of it (fair use, I think): >tE >For most forms of current technology, these questions have long been E >settled. No executives are worried about illegal uses of televisionseD >or coffee makers, for instance, and no consumers need to worry thatD >these appliances will crash or become infected with viruses; and weE >would never accept it if they did. Our TV's and VCR's don't take ill E >when we watch infected programs, and our refrigerators never requiree >rebooting.R >[= >Yet we have come to tolerate such problems from our personaleD >computers. The PC's fundamental and unique unreliability flows fromB >its construction as a so-called flexible platform; a mere stagingB >area for many kinds of software. The point (and bane) of a PC is,5 >essentially, to run whatever software it encounters.  >m >[end of quote]0 >9? >Shouldn't that be "the point and band of a PC is its defectivetG >operating system?" or "a mere staging area allowing any old program toe? >have complete control of the computer"? And of course he nevera5 >mentions all the security holes, patch du jour, etc.  > A >The main point of this article is a power struggle between mediaAE >congolmerates and hardware manufactures over control of content. The = >author implies that there is an unavoidable tradeoff betweenn8 >flexibility to run any software and computer stability. > > >Is this what most people think about computers? that they areE >unavoidably buggy? What about creating a VMS-like OS for PC's? Wouldu >that not solve the problem? > " >Does this not deserve a response? >M >Disclaimer: JMHOi >Alan E. Feldman6 >"Help me help you help me help you"  -- Bob Patterson   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:00:25 GMTe From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGiI Subject: Re: [OT]  NY Times Op-Ed misses point about unreliablity of PC's 0 Message-ID: <00A0AD56.B835ED6B@SendSpamHere.ORG>  j In article <hsrj8.882$fL6.20609@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: ... M >I'm not entirely sure that you can start out to write a software environment  >that is reliable, c   VMS.  	 >robust, d   VMS.   >extensible,   VMS.  % > and long-lived - and be successful.g   :(     --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMR            .J   "And of course, I'm a genius, so people are naturally drawn to my fiery I   intellect.  Their admiration overwhelms their envy!" -- Calvin & Hobbes    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 18:39:15 +0100n$ From: "Dr. Dweeb" <Dweeb@NoSpam.com>' Subject: Re: [OT] Rousseau was to blameu0 Message-ID: <H2rj8.644$2E2.2870@news.get2net.dk>  J Blame that famous asshole Rousseau and his predilection for consigning hisH unwanted children to certain death in the "orphanages" of the time whileK simultaneously agitating a philosophy calling for the government to providen such care etc. etc. etc.  1 I can see this might get out of hand, however ...   J The phrase "a natural task for government" is used in various countries byK the "civilised left" (cough, gasp) political spectrum as jsutification - itNK is a given against which no argument is countenanced.  For them, everythingkD is a "natural ...". You name it, their in it.  It is a long standing< tradition of the ruling socialist political elite of Europe.  J Regarding health insurance, is a factoid.  The US spends considerably moreF $/person  pa. (a factor more) on free public health than the socialistL paradises of Scandinavia, and probably Germany and England as well.  I leaveL quality to the user, but at least in the US there is accountability, which IH can assure you rarely exists in government monopoly health care systems.   Enough, I am going homeT   Dweeb.  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KFA1O0NRO28ZOX9C@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...e0 > > To drag this thread still further off topic,% > > I'm curious where Europeans found,6 > > and acquired a taste for nationalized health care, >:1 > > I'd been curious if some of it, was the sheery5 > > numbers of those who did military service (ww ii)v >uE > I don't think so.  A classic example of a big-government country isuB > Sweden, which hasn't been in a war since the early 19th century. >o. > > Was national healthcare in Europe mainly a7 > > post-WWII phenomena, or, did it have earlier roots?  >   > I'm sure it goes back further. > J > It's not just health care, but state-run things in general.  In general,E > folks in Europe favour these types of things more than folks in the-- > States.  This probably has lots of reasons.a >    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:32:55 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> I Subject: Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salariesl; Message-ID: <01KF9NNYW1LU8Y996Y@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>.  G > I have wondered about this whenever higher US salaries are mentioned. B > Just what are the costs of living in the US compared to Europe ?  C The only way to do a valid comparison is to say: for MY job and MY ?G lifestyle, where can I live better?  If you like to drink alcohol, you  C will find that Sweden has a very high cost of living.  If you like 'D public transportation, you will find that it has a very low cost of D living.  Also, the relative salaries of jobs differ from country to H country, as well as the difference between the best-paid and worst-paid I jobs.  Want to send three children to a good university?  In the States, wF this will probably cost you about a quarter of a million dollars.  In 2 many European countries, it will cost you nothing.  F Executive summary: "the cost of living in country A is higher than in H country B" is a meaningless statement, since it depends on how you earn H your money and how you want to spend it.  Nevertheless, when I say "the E cost of living is high", it means that it is significantly higher forD almost everyone. r   > For example, in the UK,   B The UK is rather atypical---the cost of living is very high there.  4 > all medical care is provided by the state (withoutJ > charge except for routine dental/eye care which is heavily subsidised).   H I worked in the UK for two years.  Routine dental care?  I thought, OK, C I have the standard medical care, I will pay the token fee.  I was tD surprised how high it was.  The next time I was in Germany, where I G wasn't insured at the time, I went to the dentist and said I would pay rG the entire bill---it was less than the "token fee" in the UK!  (Yes, I e WAS an NHS patient!)  H > It's paid for though taxes, but you get the care regardless of whether > you are employed or not. l  C Yes, only uncivilised countries deny medical care to folks who are h unemployed!  :-|  L > What percentage of a US salary would be used for providing for things like7 > this, and how what happens if you become unemployed ?s  8 Good point.  Also, one can live without a car in Europe.  - > Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.    An insult to Lada!!!!!!e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:31:46 +0400 4 From: Valentin Likoum <valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.ru>I Subject: Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salariesx5 Message-ID: <12716531866.20020312133146@ncc.volga.ru>e  Q On 11.03.2002 Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:m   [snip] > Simon.- > Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.t    =   Simon, why do you offend my car? If you care to look insideo= you will find that Lada looks almost like Unix - very simple. @ Almost everything is configurable and repairable by hand without) service person, excluding kernel rebuild.    ;-)    -- I   Valentin Likoum    valentin.likoum@ncc.volga.ru   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:27:09 -0500 5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com>uI Subject: Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salariese2 Message-ID: <mQGOPKZ8sIr=XmqFYj8T4e1Q=AzJ@4ax.com>  8 On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:32:55 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbig+ <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:h  
 <big snip>   > I >> It's paid for though taxes, but you get the care regardless of whetherh >> you are employed or not.  >ID >Yes, only uncivilised countries deny medical care to folks who are  >unemployed!  :-|a >o  8 ... and even more uncivilized to force people to pay for5 medical care for others, even if they are unemployed.    David R. Beattyr   <snip>   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:05:53 +0000s From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>aI Subject: Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salariest' Message-ID: <3C8E0B41.7B7940@Omond.net>i   David Beatty wrote:    > [...snip...] >a: > ... and even more uncivilized to force people to pay for7 > medical care for others, even if they are unemployed.p  
 *sigh* ...  . Count me in the "more uncivilized" group then.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 14:45:06 GMT  From: lbohan@spamless..dbc.comI Subject: Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salariesv8 Message-ID: <0d4s8u0lqt7579sj8u3v0o2u0pvvhj0q7u@4ax.com>  8 On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:32:55 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbig+ <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:o    D >Yes, only uncivilised countries deny medical care to folks who are  >unemployed!  :-|T >yM >> What percentage of a US salary would be used for providing for things like68 >> this, and how what happens if you become unemployed ?  - To drag this thread still further off topic, e" I'm curious where Europeans found 3 and acquired a  taste for nationalized health care,   ( Obviously, it didn't happen overnight.  8 and afaik, not until the later part of the 20th century.  . I'd been curious if some of it, was the sheer 1 numbers of those who did military service (ww ii)   + Was national healthcare in Europe mainly a  4 post-WWII phenomena,  or, did it have earlier roots?   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 15:58:02 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>sI Subject: Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salaries*; Message-ID: <01KFA1O0NRO28ZOX9C@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>e  / > To drag this thread still further off topic, ,$ > I'm curious where Europeans found 4 > and acquired a taste for nationalized health care,  0 > I'd been curious if some of it, was the sheer 3 > numbers of those who did military service (ww ii)   D I don't think so.  A classic example of a big-government country is @ Sweden, which hasn't been in a war since the early 19th century.  - > Was national healthcare in Europe mainly a n5 > post-WWII phenomena, or, did it have earlier roots?    I'm sure it goes back further.  I It's not just health care, but state-run things in general.  In general,  D folks in Europe favour these types of things more than folks in the + States.  This probably has lots of reasons.h   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Mar 2002 17:26:31 GMT3 From: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de (Christoph Gartmann)aI Subject: Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salaries.0 Message-ID: <a6ldo7$5b8$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>  Y In article <0d4s8u0lqt7579sj8u3v0o2u0pvvhj0q7u@4ax.com>, lbohan@spamless..dbc.com writes:m9 >On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:32:55 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbigu, ><HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote: >o > E >>Yes, only uncivilised countries deny medical care to folks who are t >>unemployed!  :-| >>N >>> What percentage of a US salary would be used for providing for things like9 >>> this, and how what happens if you become unemployed ?t >u. >To drag this thread still further off topic, # >I'm curious where Europeans found -4 >and acquired a  taste for nationalized health care, > ) >Obviously, it didn't happen overnight.  c9 >and afaik, not until the later part of the 20th century.u >l/ >I'd been curious if some of it, was the sheer 92 >numbers of those who did military service (ww ii) >o, >Was national healthcare in Europe mainly a 5 >post-WWII phenomena,  or, did it have earlier roots?   M The current scheme here in Germany was implemented around 1870. I am not sure  what was available before.   Regards,    Christoph Gartmannr  H -- --------------------------------------------------------------------+H | Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452 |H | Immunbiologie                                                        |H | Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de     |H | D-79011  Freiburg, Germany                                           |H +--------- http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/english/menue.html ---------+   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Mar 2002 12:34:42 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)I Subject: Re: [OT] US/Europe living costs, was: Re: VMS sys admin salariesd3 Message-ID: <cU4S+Mzoe7Yt@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  Y In article <0d4s8u0lqt7579sj8u3v0o2u0pvvhj0q7u@4ax.com>, lbohan@spamless..dbc.com writes:i: > On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 09:32:55 +0100 (MET), Phillip Helbig- > <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:e > E >>Yes, only uncivilised countries deny medical care to folks who are p >>unemployed!  :-| >>N >>> What percentage of a US salary would be used for providing for things like9 >>> this, and how what happens if you become unemployed ?t > / > To drag this thread still further off topic, x$ > I'm curious where Europeans found 5 > and acquired a  taste for nationalized health care,  > * > Obviously, it didn't happen overnight.  : > and afaik, not until the later part of the 20th century. >   $ You can read the UK NHS overview at:  1 http://www.nhs.uk/thenhsexplained/what_is_nhs.asp0   and a timeline at:  8 http://www.nhs.uk/thenhsexplained/history_of_the_nhs.asp  C [Given that it's now completely off topic for COV, it may be bettere( if further followups are done in email.]   Simon.   -- WB Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       + Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.e   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.140 ************************if a bad device (software application) is plugged in.  You would also thenL provide new input and output interfaces as needed, and as devices (software)J evolve.  You could throw away the entire insides of the box if you need toL st Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    	Q]    
Q]    Q]    Q]    
Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]     Q]    !Q]    "Q]    #Q]    $Q]    %Q]    &Q]    'Q]    (Q]    )Q]    *Q]    +Q]    ,Q]    -Q]    .Q]    /Q]    0Q]    1Q]    2Q]    3Q]    4Q]    5Q]    6Q]    7Q]    8Q]    9Q]    :Q]    ;Q]    <Q]    =Q]    >Q]    ?Q]    @Q]    AQ]    BQ]    CQ]    DQ]    EQ]    FQ]    GQ]    HQ]    IQ]    JQ]    KQ]    LQ]    MQ]    NQ]    OQ]    PQ]    QQ]    RQ]    SQ]    TQ]    UQ]    VQ]    WQ]    XQ]    YQ]    ZQ]    [Q]    \Q]    ]Q]    ^Q]    _Q]    `Q]    aQ]    bQ]    cQ]    dQ]    eQ]    fQ]    gQ]    hQ]    iQ]    jQ]    kQ]    lQ]    mQ]    nQ]    oQ]    pQ]    qQ]    rQ]    sQ]    tQ]    uQ]    vQ]    wQ]    xQ]    yQ]    zQ]    {Q]    |Q]    }Q]    ~Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    Q]    