1 INFO-VAX	Mon, 06 May 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 250       Contents: Re: (remaining) GBLPAGFIL  Re: (remaining) GBLPAGFIL  Re: (remaining) GBLPAGFIL  Re: A nighmare for Bill Gates  Re: A nighmare for Bill Gates 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 4 Re: creat function hanging -- Code snippet provided! Re: Deathbed confession?& Detecting NOBACKUP attribute of a file* Re: Detecting NOBACKUP attribute of a file- Re: EDT or EVE (and a fine DCL hack, also...)  Re: Error Message on ES-40# ES-40 x Oracle RDB *** PROBLEMS *** ' RE: ES-40 x Oracle RDB *** PROBLEMS *** ' Re: ES-40 x Oracle RDB *** PROBLEMS ***   Re: Fix for EDT emulation in EVEE Re: How to rotate Apache/CSWS log files under VMS, without a restart? E Re: How to rotate Apache/CSWS log files under VMS, without a restart?   is this suitable for openvms ???$ RE: is this suitable for openvms ???$ RE: is this suitable for openvms ???$ Re: is this suitable for openvms ???$ RE: is this suitable for openvms ??? Re: Listing updated files. Re: Listing updated files.8 Re: MacOS/X is the leading Unix (was "Itanium Troubles")8 RE: MacOS/X is the leading Unix (was "Itanium Troubles")8 Re: MacOS/X is the leading Unix (was "Itanium Troubles") Re: Memory Corruption  Re: New to VAX Re: New to VAX9 Non-Microsoft keyboards for USB !!! (was: USB on OpenVMS)  OpenVMS Certification  Re: OpenVMS Certification  Re: OpenVMS Certification 9 Re: Reducing size of incremental backup - will this work?  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  RE: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Sayonara DS10, new org charts ! Re: Sayonara DS10, new org charts  Re: SMTP Usage Filter... Re: SMTP Usage Filter... Re: SMTP Usage Filter...P Re: The 'tone' of c.o.v. (was Re: Prediction:  VMS lives, merger or no  merger!) Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS( Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New Company( Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New Company( Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New Company. Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New CompanySELECT Re: VMS SCAN product Re: VMS SCAN product Re: VMS SCAN product RE: VMS SCAN product8 Re: Was OpenVMS V7.3 ever released for the VAX platform?. Which newsservers (if any) run under tcpip5.1?# WIS??? Did it die with the HP deal? ' Re: WIS??? Did it die with the HP deal? ' Re: WIS??? Did it die with the HP deal? ' Re: WIS??? Did it die with the HP deal? ' Re: WIS??? Did it die with the HP deal?  Re: X-Win32 / Re: ZIPped .PCSI container arrives OK on VMS??? / RE: ZIPped .PCSI container arrives OK on VMS???  [TFW]  Installing ODL on W2K  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 10:04:07 -0500 4 From: Arlen Williams <arlen.williams@remove.eds.com>" Subject: Re: (remaining) GBLPAGFIL+ Message-ID: <3CD69B67.90805@remove.eds.com>   
 Joe wrote:   > OpenVMS 7.1-1H2  >  > G > If I'm not mistaken GBLPAGFIL is the SYSGEN parameter determining how A > much of the pagefile is ultimately available for use in section $ > backing - ie $CRMPSC/SEC$M_PAGFIL. > H > Is MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL the correct place to look to determine how much ofD > this is currently available? If so - is there a "supported" way to, > collect this bit of information other than >  > $ analyze/system > SDA> read/exec > .  > .  > .  > SDA> examine mmg$gl_gblpagfil  >  >  > TIA  > joe  >     B Try a call to sys$getsyiw() with the items SYI$_PAGEFILE_FREE and  SYI$_PAGEFILE_PAGE.    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 11:51:57 -0400 1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> " Subject: Re: (remaining) GBLPAGFIL2 Message-ID: <3CD6A69D.7BFB274D@clarityconnect.com>   Joe,H 	GBLPAGFILE is the quota that says how many GBLPAGES can have the system@ paging files as their backing store.  GBLPAGFIL does NOT reserveH anything in the page files.  It is only a gate at the time that a global page gets created.  @ Yes MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL is still the cell that contains how much isG available and from DCL the only way to access it is to parse SDA output D or to 'know' what the SVA is of the data cell and to use the EXAMINE command.   SDA> EVAL MMG$GL_GBLPAGFILH Hex = FFFFFFFF.83806328   Decimal = -2088738008         MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL SDA> EXAM MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL1 MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL:  00000000.002DC467   "g-....."  $ GBLPAGCNT = %x83806328 $ EXAM/LONG GBLPAGCNT  83806328:  002DC467   F Enhancement requests have been logged to allow F$GETSYI to return thisF item thus it may show up in some future version.  If you would like toA add your request to the pile then call your local CSC and log it.   
 Joe wrote: >  > OpenVMS 7.1-1H2  > G > If I'm not mistaken GBLPAGFIL is the SYSGEN parameter determining how A > much of the pagefile is ultimately available for use in section $ > backing - ie $CRMPSC/SEC$M_PAGFIL. > H > Is MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL the correct place to look to determine how much ofD > this is currently available? If so - is there a "supported" way to, > collect this bit of information other than >  > $ analyze/system > SDA> read/exec > .  > .  > .  > SDA> examine mmg$gl_gblpagfil  >  > TIA  > joe    --  C Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NY 0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 16:59:45 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG " Subject: Re: (remaining) GBLPAGFIL0 Message-ID: <00A0D886.531581DB@SendSpamHere.ORG>  f In article <3CD6A69D.7BFB274D@clarityconnect.com>, "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com> writes: >Joe, I >	GBLPAGFILE is the quota that says how many GBLPAGES can have the system A >paging files as their backing store.  GBLPAGFIL does NOT reserve I >anything in the page files.  It is only a gate at the time that a global  >page gets created.  > A >Yes MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL is still the cell that contains how much is H >available and from DCL the only way to access it is to parse SDA outputE >or to 'know' what the SVA is of the data cell and to use the EXAMINE 	 >command.  >  >SDA> EVAL MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL I >Hex = FFFFFFFF.83806328   Decimal = -2088738008         MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL  >SDA> EXAM MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL 2 >MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL:  00000000.002DC467   "g-....." >$ GBLPAGCNT = %x83806328  >$ EXAM/LONG GBLPAGCNT >83806328:  002DC467 > G >Enhancement requests have been logged to allow F$GETSYI to return this G >item thus it may show up in some future version.  If you would like to B >add your request to the pile then call your local CSC and log it.   Or install SYMBOL and...  ' $ symbol/set/executive MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL D $ write sys$output "''F$cvui(0,32,F$fao("!AD",4,MMG$GL_GBLPAGFIL))'"   Just another shameless plug. --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:17:43 -04000 From: "Syltrem" <syltremspammenot@videotron.com>& Subject: Re: A nighmare for Bill Gates5 Message-ID: <JewB8.11491$a04.51922@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>    Hi!   : This is good news. Can you provide a link to your article? Thanks!    --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais) > To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  J "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> a crit dans le message de news:! 3CD34B6A.EDC30AD8@videotron.ca...  > <dream mode on> L > Rooters - May 7th 2002. (Santa Clara).  Carly Fiorina, the victorious head ofL > the new HP finally unveiled today the product roadmap she has been working on > for the past year. > H > HP, having now gained number 1 status in the computer industry [1] has decided I > to chart the course for the industry, a course full of high quality and F > innovation. The newly acquired assets will allow HP to return to its former; > self, innovating with high quality products and services.  > E > As a result of this strong power, HP has decided to screw Intel and 	 Microsoft K > whose products are nowhere near the desired HP quality levels and instead  willK > redevelop the Alpha chip and redeploy its high quality operating systems, , > layered products and application software. > I > The new HP product line will be consolidated around the Alpha chip from  the K > desktop to the supercomputer, which will support VMS, Tandem's NSK, Tru64  and H > Linux. HP has decided that it was much more efficient to merge HP-UX'sI > features into the richer environment of Tru64 than doing the previously  > announced reverse. > D > Not wanting to become a proprietary company, HP will licence theseH > technologies with very easy terms to any other computer manufacter, as well as / > allow other chip makers to FAB Alpha designs.  > J > With a strong leadership role, HP will be able to set industry standards thatL > will greatly increase productivity, eliminate the time current lost to fixK > Microsoft software problems and viri, and also enhance competition by not 7 > having a single OS that has such a high market share.  >  > H > [1] (that is what the montreal Subway information panels said today, i guess  > they forgot about IBM) > </dream mode off>    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:21:24 -04000 From: "Syltrem" <syltremspammenot@videotron.com>& Subject: Re: A nighmare for Bill Gates5 Message-ID: <aiwB8.11492$a04.51826@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>    OOPS!   K I was still stuck in the dream mode so early a Monday morning and I haven`t 5 paid attention to the remark at the top of your post. I I could hardly believe it could be all true, but wonders never cease (Mom G Boucher was actually sent to jail, you know! THAT was in the paper this 
 morning.). You got me!    --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais) > To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  K "Syltrem" <syltremspammenot@videotron.com> a crit dans le message de news: * JewB8.11491$a04.51922@tor-nn1.netcom.ca... > Hi!  > < > This is good news. Can you provide a link to your article?	 > Thanks!  >  > -- > 	 > Syltrem K > http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais) @ > To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address > L > "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> a crit dans le message de news:# > 3CD34B6A.EDC30AD8@videotron.ca...  > > <dream mode on> I > > Rooters - May 7th 2002. (Santa Clara).  Carly Fiorina, the victorious  head > ofF > > the new HP finally unveiled today the product roadmap she has been working  > on > > for the past year. > > J > > HP, having now gained number 1 status in the computer industry [1] has	 > decided K > > to chart the course for the industry, a course full of high quality and H > > innovation. The newly acquired assets will allow HP to return to its > former= > > self, innovating with high quality products and services.  > > G > > As a result of this strong power, HP has decided to screw Intel and  > Microsoft E > > whose products are nowhere near the desired HP quality levels and  instead  > willD > > redevelop the Alpha chip and redeploy its high quality operating systems,. > > layered products and application software. > > K > > The new HP product line will be consolidated around the Alpha chip from  > the G > > desktop to the supercomputer, which will support VMS, Tandem's NSK,  Tru64  > and J > > Linux. HP has decided that it was much more efficient to merge HP-UX'sK > > features into the richer environment of Tru64 than doing the previously  > > announced reverse. > > F > > Not wanting to become a proprietary company, HP will licence theseJ > > technologies with very easy terms to any other computer manufacter, as	 > well as 1 > > allow other chip makers to FAB Alpha designs.  > > L > > With a strong leadership role, HP will be able to set industry standards > thatJ > > will greatly increase productivity, eliminate the time current lost to fix I > > Microsoft software problems and viri, and also enhance competition by  not 9 > > having a single OS that has such a high market share.  > >  > > J > > [1] (that is what the montreal Subway information panels said today, i > guess  > > they forgot about IBM) > > </dream mode off>  >  >    ------------------------------   Date: 06 May 2002 11:02:42 GMT& From: Volker Birk <bumens@dingens.org>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix< Message-ID: <3cd662d2$0$232$4d4ebb8e@businessnews.de.uu.net>  = In comp.sys.hp.hpux Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: F > VMS was, in fact, one of the first POSIX-compliant platforms.  WhileJ > POSIX != Unix, it's a bit of a stretch to claim 'POSIX has nothing to do
 > with Unix'.   H "Supporting POSIX" has really nothing to do with "It is an Unix System".  C Unix ever had the concept to implement solutions lean. It never had F the concept of being as feature rich as VMS or Windoze. So does Linux.  L > True:  Linux is now Unix for adolescents.  Some proprietary Unixes are for > adults, though youngish ones. . > Systems like VMS and zOS qualify as 'mature'  7 This will lead into an OS war, so I will not answer it. K But think of the old "A Mouse with an Operating System is called Elephant".   7 > (it's possible something like Netware might as well).   C I do not understand your point here - Netware is not an OS with the   concept of a timesharing system.   VB.  --  C *** ebios Informationssysteme, Germany      ***  kangu:~ $ cd /pub/ G *** Gut-Betha-Platz 1, 88339 Bad Waldsee    ***  kangu:/pub $ more beer H *** Phone +49-7524-93421 Fax +49-7524-93423 ***  Aaahhhh! That was good!? *** mailto:vb@ebios.de                      ***  kangu:/pub $ _    ------------------------------   Date: 06 May 2002 11:06:57 GMT& From: Volker Birk <bumens@dingens.org>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix< Message-ID: <3cd663d1$0$232$4d4ebb8e@businessnews.de.uu.net>  = In comp.sys.hp.hpux Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: L > Sorry - my idea of a 'formal support structure' is more along the lines ofM > what VMS, IBM proprietary systems, and some of the proprietary Unixes have, K > rather than just the fact that someone, somewhere is willing to express a " > sense of support responsibility.  F I do not hear anything good about support for proprietary systems from5 my customers, only "expensive", "slow", "unfriendly".   D What should be wrong with the option to compare supporting companies for my platform?   Unix is not proprietary BTW.   VB.  --  C *** ebios Informationssysteme, Germany      ***  kangu:~ $ cd /pub/ G *** Gut-Betha-Platz 1, 88339 Bad Waldsee    ***  kangu:/pub $ more beer H *** Phone +49-7524-93421 Fax +49-7524-93423 ***  Aaahhhh! That was good!? *** mailto:vb@ebios.de                      ***  kangu:/pub $ _    ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 11:51:09 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix+ Message-ID: <ab5qnd$qr7$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>2  e In article <3cd663d1$0$232$4d4ebb8e@businessnews.de.uu.net>, Volker Birk <bumens@dingens.org> writes: > >In comp.sys.hp.hpux Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote: >Unix is not proprietary BTW., >n  I Unix is not an OS but a family of OSes. Most of those individual OSes areU definitely proprietary.,   Solaris is proprietary.U HP-UX is proprietary.u AIX is proprietary.c TRU64 is proprietary.l etci  H If you don't think they are proprietary then buy or otherwise obtain the9 sources, alter them, recompile them and try selling them.t  J Now you might make the argument that some of the free "Unixes" - FREEBSD,  LINUX are not proprietary.L However even here you might get into bother if you made changes to the LinuxO kernel without getting it approved by Linus Torvalds and his closest associatesiB and persisted in selling it (or freely distributed it) as Linux.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 12:03:12 GMT** From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix@ Message-ID: <4iuB8.92238$N8.6866379@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  3 "Volker Birk" <bumens@dingens.org> wrote in message 6 news:3cd662d2$0$232$4d4ebb8e@businessnews.de.uu.net...? > In comp.sys.hp.hpux Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:eH > > VMS was, in fact, one of the first POSIX-compliant platforms.  WhileL > > POSIX != Unix, it's a bit of a stretch to claim 'POSIX has nothing to do > > with Unix'." >nJ > "Supporting POSIX" has really nothing to do with "It is an Unix System".  L So what?  I said nothing like that, but just responded to the statement thatI I included above (just to make the point clear, though it seems you stillf managed to get confused by it).o   ...   9 > > (it's possible something like Netware might as well).e >iE > I do not understand your point here - Netware is not an OS with the " > concept of a timesharing system.  F Without entering into a debate on that point, I'll just note that it'sL (again) irrelevant:  I was simply giving another example of an OS that might+ be considered mature, in contrast to Linux.    - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 07:27:50 -0500e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix3 Message-ID: <wuvkiMS3ldlO@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  J In article <ab0vmr$dbo$2@nyheter.crt.se>, phn@icke-reklam.ipsec.nu writes: > ? > MPE has a very loyal user base, and the system is a very goodFA > transaction-type system. Just like VMS it has it's strength ande > niche.  G    Yes but how did MPE profits compare to VMS profits?  It's clear thatVD    the VMS port to IA-64 is a smaller cost than VMS brings in, but IA    don't know of any numbers for MPE.  Maybe MPE would stop beinge$    profitable in the face of a port?   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 07:51:19 -0500e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix3 Message-ID: <myakn8kA$vQW@eisner.encompasserve.org>   e In article <3cd663d1$0$232$4d4ebb8e@businessnews.de.uu.net>, Volker Birk <bumens@dingens.org> writes:p >  > Unix is not proprietary BTW.  E    Since when?  I've never seen a UNIX that didn't have some vendor's H    proprietary stamp on it, was limitted to thier hardware, and required'    the use of thier system admin tools.?  E    The "open system" of UNIX is just hype.  Lucky for UNIX advocates, (    it's sold to an industry run on hype.   ------------------------------  + Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:29:42 +0100 (MET)c9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>K< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix; Message-ID: <01KHEUSVMWNM8Y8ZDE@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>     > > Unix is not proprietary BTW. > G >    Since when?  I've never seen a UNIX that didn't have some vendor'seJ >    proprietary stamp on it, was limitted to thier hardware, and required) >    the use of thier system admin tools.e > G >    The "open system" of UNIX is just hype.  Lucky for UNIX advocates,o* >    it's sold to an industry run on hype.  , There are lies, damn lies, and open systems.   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 14:40:51 GMTi From: phn@icke-reklam.ipsec.nu< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix) Message-ID: <ab64lj$b0q$1@nyheter.crt.se>   = In comp.os.vms Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:rL > In article <ab0vmr$dbo$2@nyheter.crt.se>, phn@icke-reklam.ipsec.nu writes: >> E@ >> MPE has a very loyal user base, and the system is a very goodB >> transaction-type system. Just like VMS it has it's strength and	 >> niche.(  I >    Yes but how did MPE profits compare to VMS profits?  It's clear thatoF >    the VMS port to IA-64 is a smaller cost than VMS brings in, but IC >    don't know of any numbers for MPE.  Maybe MPE would stop beinge& >    profitable in the face of a port?  > I would guess that MPE as a simpler systems ( i AM polite :-) > is easier to port and does not need so much hardware features.  : So porting MPE to ia-64 ( or whatever ) would be possible.  = I'm not completeley convinced it's a good thing, when i look eE at the previous intel (ia-32)hardware. Design is not what comes to my2+ mind, "happening" is a better description. AD The pdp-11 had more interrupts, in it's most restictive version then any ia-32 implementation.   * MPE ported to alpha would have been nice.        --   Peter Hkanson         h7         IPSec  Sverige      ( At Gothenburg Riverside )uJ            Sorry about my e-mail address, but i'm trying to keep spam out,; 	   remove "icke-reklam" if you feel for mailing me. Thanx.    ------------------------------  " Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 15:01:37 GMT- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com> < Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' UnixD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.30.0205061100550.10913-100000@world.std.com>  ) On Mon, 6 May 2002, Phillip Helbig wrote:h  " > > > Unix is not proprietary BTW. > > I > >    Since when?  I've never seen a UNIX that didn't have some vendor's L > >    proprietary stamp on it, was limitted to thier hardware, and required+ > >    the use of thier system admin tools.o > > I > >    The "open system" of UNIX is just hype.  Lucky for UNIX advocates,c, > >    it's sold to an industry run on hype. >.. > There are lies, damn lies, and open systems. >c  0 All garnished with a tasty Snake Oil Vinagrette.   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 07:26:36 -0700R, From: bubbapig@hotmail.com (Jeffrey Cameron)= Subject: Re: creat function hanging -- Code snippet provided!6= Message-ID: <b22333b7.0205060626.7f0dc7dc@posting.google.com>y   Hi Hein,  C Thanks for your comments.  I have finally given up on trying to use C the creat function the only real side-effect being that my code nowLD contains 10+ lines of code to open a file instead of the 2 needed toD make a file descriptor and atach it to a file stream. RMS isn't thatF bad to work with (definitely a fun nightmare!) though one does have toE think in terms of assembler (load the struct, call the function, loadt@ the struct, call the function, etc.). By calling RMS directly itB appears to have solved my problems directly, and maybe works a bit faster.0  F The other reason I wanted to use C++ is that I am only on this projectF another few months and someone will come in to take over my job. ThereF aren't many recruits here who know RMS on an Open VMS Alpha system butD there are lots who know how to use C++ so it would have been nice to> incorporate that into the program to ease their learning curveC considerably. While RMS is powerful, learning to use it can all itsM1 robust options can be a bit hard for someone new.I  C As for the options passed to the creat() function which you pointed"E out, some I have no idea why they are there. I took over this monster F program from a menagerie of 4 other recruit programmers who had workedE on it (one of whom had created one monster 72k source file instead of-F modularizing the program as very basic computer science would dictate,@ they even had some goto statements in there!), and none of theseC programmers appears to have known C very well much less RMS so I amsD presuming that they just threw in some arguments that looked good toF the fopen function (which i took my creat function from) and went fromE there. Not knowing any better I simply left them in because it seemedyE they worked. So forgive any irregularities that appeared in the code.e  > So thank you all for your kind help and advice, I have alreadyC incorporated many of it into my work (particularly the debugger andcB some of the anlyzer commands). You have made a newbie VMS guy very	 happy! :)a  p Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<3CD2E4FA.FFF29775@eps.zko.dec.com>..." > > It's getting quite annoying :) > J > I think we are trying to drive to you towards calling RMS directly.  :-) > J > Judging by your create arguments you are trying to have a lot of controlN > so perhaps it is not too crazy to just call RMS directly. There are examplesJ > in both the C and RMS documentation. Could be fun, could be a nightmare, > could be a fun nightmare.l > N > Actually, the arguments you are giving in the example are not too impressive6 > and suggest you might just want to leave them alone. > N > I am a BIG fan of pre-allocation, but 36 blocks is nothing! ALQ is importantN > when you start to think in terms of Megabyte or Gigabyte, not for Kilobytes. > N > I know ctx=xplct exists but in 10 years I have never ever seen it used, so IO > am wondering why you'd start there. I'm asking folks what this option exactlynP > maps to but I suspect it does nothing or perhaps a 'deferred write'. Ditch it? > J > The C RTL REF manual is pretty clear about simple "xxx=yyy" and no fancy > parsing/interpretation.  > I > If I had to debug this I also would use a little know file-system tool:l> >       $SET FILE /WATCH=MAJOR (other arguments:  ALL or NONE)Q > Use it to watch a 'good' open and a 'bad' open. This will make it very clear asmT > to whether you are getting the file created or start looping in the argument parse > before the internal RMS call.1 > L > If you happen to have a stand-alone reproducer then I'd suggest submitting% > that as an official problem report.f >  > Good luck, >  > Hein.-   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:38:21 GMTm0 From: prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com (Paul Winalski)! Subject: Re: Deathbed confession?29 Message-ID: <3cd69ee0.2060600356@proxy.news.easynews.com>c  4 On Fri, 03 May 2002 18:38:30 GMT, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:k  > >"Paul Winalski" <prune@ZAnkh-Morpork.mv.com> wrote in message4 >news:3cd2cede.1810802095@proxy.news.easynews.com... >y >>F >> But I do think your main thesis is correct--Alpha's demise occurredD >> for business rather than technical reasons.  Compaq was unwillingE >> and unable to build a volume market for Alpha that would have madenE >> the architecture a self-sustaining, profit-making proposition.  IttB >> finally came to put up or shut up, and Compaq chose to shut up. > J >That about sums it up. Absent the NT dalliance, DEC didn't do a heck of a; >lot in the sustainability and profitability realm, either.t  > DEC never, in its entire life as a company, grokked marketing.  C In retrospect, it seems clear that "GQ Bob" Palmer's game plan fromfC the beginning was to pare DEC down, sell it on the auction block toBB the highest bidder, then pull the ripcord on his golden parachute.D Investing the $$$ necessary to pump-prime the market for Alpha would= have made the balance sheet look messy, so it never happened.   C The NT dalliance, IMO, was actually Microsoft playing DEC as a pawnnD against Intel:  "See?  We can go to DEC, or MIPS, or IBM/Motorola if: we want to."  Had DEC developed enough of a volume market,B especially at the low end, Microsoft might have stayed interested.  K >When it's all said and done, the Great Mystery (to me) is why neither firmuJ >took to heart the advice, both unsolicited and purchased, it received re:L >Alpha. Lord knows plenty of advice was dished out, and the vast majority ofL >it pertained to apps critical mass, demand generation, and something called >marketing.   F Tell me about it.  There were reams of that sort of advice coming from inside the company, as well.  A By the time Compaq took over, the situation may already have beenh@ nearly irretrievable.  DEC's problem seems to have been twofold:D (1) as an insider once remarked, "If DEC were in charge of marketingE the Second Coming of Christ, Satan would win", and (2) the CEO wasn'te& interested in making Alpha successful.  B If you can't do your book on it, the Alpha debacle certainly would- make an excellent business school case study.s  
 ---------- Remove 'Z' to reply by email.a   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 09:47:26 -0700s# From: tadamsmar@aol.com (Tom Adams)r/ Subject: Detecting NOBACKUP attribute of a filer= Message-ID: <793af3df.0205060847.7d72b882@posting.google.com>h  ; How can you detect that a file is set to nobackup?  I wouldn= like to do this to control a decision in a command procedure?n   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 12:52:37 -04000 From: "Syltrem" <syltremspammenot@videotron.com>3 Subject: Re: Detecting NOBACKUP attribute of a filer5 Message-ID: <XvyB8.11521$a04.52029@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>-   help lexicals f$file_attributes    --   Syltrem I http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)e> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address  @ "Tom Adams" <tadamsmar@aol.com> a crit dans le message de news:2 793af3df.0205060847.7d72b882@posting.google.com...= > How can you detect that a file is set to nobackup?  I wouldh? > like to do this to control a decision in a command procedure?    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:39:37 GMT - From: goathunter@goatley.com (Hunter Goatley) 6 Subject: Re: EDT or EVE (and a fine DCL hack, also...)1 Message-ID: <3cd6a321.178768285@news.process.com>   M On Mon, 06 May 2002 00:57:09 GMT, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>  wrote:  B >> VMS_SHARE can be find (of course :-) ) on Hunter's archive at :, >> http://www.process.com/openvms/index.html >fG >This was useful sometime back. An excellent piece of work, really. Not'@ >sure how many folks need it or would find it useful these days. >tK Little known secret 'til now: when I moved my archives from WKU to Process,gM I lost the e-mail-based FILESERV, which distributed the archives in VMS_SHARE~O format.  I didn't have time at the time to set up the new FILESERV, but plannedbL to do so when I could.  It's now been a year or so since the move, and not aO single person has ever asked me about e-mail access to the archives.  So either-K no one needs it anymore or they just gave up.  In any case, I never did getnG around to setting up the new FILESERV, and I no longer intend to do so.n   Hunter ------9 Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/y8 goathunter@goatley.com    http://www.goatley.com/hunter/< New Robert R. McCammon site: http://www.RobertRMcCammon.com/   ------------------------------   Date: 6 MAY 2002 14:26:17 GMTo4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)# Subject: Re: Error Message on ES-40x5 Message-ID: <6MAY02.14261737@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>t   -> David Lee wrote:u ->J -> Does any know what this message "12V Bulk Warn" means?  It displayed inL -> front of the ES-40 computer.   It comes and goes as I shutdown/reboot the -> computer. ->G -> I look everywhere on the user's guide, but can't seem to locate thistK -> error/warning message.  I wonder if it has anything to do with the power3 -> supplies.  D See table 7-2 in the ES40 Owner Guide. From the table: "Power supply! voltage over or under threshold".    --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison-2 --                      karcher@waisman.wisc.edu     ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 06:24:16 -0700 (PDT). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>, Subject: ES-40 x Oracle RDB *** PROBLEMS ***@ Message-ID: <20020506132416.73800.qmail@web20202.mail.yahoo.com>  , Last month we migrated one application from ( AS-4100 to a ES-40, but we had problems ( with the Oracle RDB Database. It was too+ slow and some queries and joins were giving  us mismatched data.i     Our configuration was   + ES-40 + OpenVMS 7.2-1H + Oracle  RDB 7.0-63   & So, there is a case openend at Oracle ( to try to solve our problem. May be they/ will suggest migrating to OVMS 7.3 an ORDB 7.1.     + Is Anyone here using this configuration ???n   Regards(   FC l   =====d ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Braziln fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?1 Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellnessi http://health.yahoo.com    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:15:43 -0400+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>n0 Subject: RE: ES-40 x Oracle RDB *** PROBLEMS ***T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1F0E@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Fabio,  < Perhaps a minor nit, but can you verify the OpenVMS version?  / >>> ES-40 + OpenVMS 7.2-1H + Oracle  RDB 7.0-63s  H While it would likely work ok, V7.2-1H1 was a release version that was =+ specific to the Alpha GS Series systems.=20r  J As a suggestion, while it might not be directly related to this problem, =F you likely should consider moving to OpenVMS V7.2-2 or V7.3 (+ maint = patches as applicable)  
 Reference:7 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/supportchart.htmlcH http://ftp.support.compaq.com/patches/.new/openvms.shtml (Latest maint = fixes)   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultante Compaq Canada Corp.y Professional Servicess Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----8 From: Fabio Cardoso [mailto:fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br]=20 Sent: May 6, 2002 9:24 AM' To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coms, Subject: ES-40 x Oracle RDB *** PROBLEMS ***    . Last month we migrated one application from=20* AS-4100 to a ES-40, but we had problems=20( with the Oracle RDB Database. It was too+ slow and some queries and joins were givingg us mismatched data.a     Our configuration was=20  + ES-40 + OpenVMS 7.2-1H + Oracle  RDB 7.0-63-  ( So, there is a case openend at Oracle=20( to try to solve our problem. May be they/ will suggest migrating to OVMS 7.3 an ORDB 7.1.e    + Is Anyone here using this configuration ???s   Regardsn   FC=20M   =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DTL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3DA F=E1bio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazils fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.brL =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D   2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?3 Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness =n http://health.yahoo.come   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 10:57:51 -0400r2 From: norm lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>0 Subject: Re: ES-40 x Oracle RDB *** PROBLEMS **** Message-ID: <3CD699EF.8609FB83@oracle.com>  : Let me get this right, all you did was change the hardware9 from a 4100 to an ES-40 and now you're having performance 7 trouble and wrong results?  Seems a litle odd to me.  Ie; usually recommend running 7.2-2 or 7.3 of VMS.  Rdb 7.0.6.3B8 should be fine (there is an update or two available from7 Oracle as wel).  Rdb 7.1.0.2 is also available now, but 9 I don't know if it will address your particular problems;s6 it doesn't seem wise to install it till you and oracle2 work out the actual problem(s) that you're seeing.   Fabio Cardoso wrote: > - > Last month we migrated one application from ) > AS-4100 to a ES-40, but we had problems,* > with the Oracle RDB Database. It was too- > slow and some queries and joins were giving  > us mismatched data.t >  > Our configuration wasr > - > ES-40 + OpenVMS 7.2-1H + Oracle  RDB 7.0-63  > ' > So, there is a case openend at Oracles* > to try to solve our problem. May be they1 > will suggest migrating to OVMS 7.3 an ORDB 7.1., > - > Is Anyone here using this configuration ???g > 	 > Regardsb >  > FC >  > =====m > ========================== > Fbio dos Santos Cardoso > OpenVMS System Manager > Rio de Janeiro - Brazilo > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br > ========================== > 4 > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!?3 > Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellnesss > http://health.yahoo.com)   -- O> norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering / usa / 610.696.4685   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:43:03 -0400- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>o) Subject: Re: Fix for EDT emulation in EVE-5 Message-ID: <ab64qd$f9j34$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>r  ; "Alan E. Feldman" <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message 6 news:b096a4ee.0205040827.47bb4ba@posting.google.com... >...C > You just made my case for why EDT is useful. Years ago when I wasb  J Yes, EDT is useful. As I mentioned before in my previous post, if I had toL do a global replace in a production job, I would use EDT exactly the way youI did. But for other jobs I would use TPU. They are both just tools and youBJ have to use the right one for the job. (See my post in the thread "CaptureK single keystroke from DCL" for an example of a routine I would write in TPUf* that I can not find an EDT way to do. :) )  L Here is another routine that I would not know how to write in EDT. It searchL for any tabs and/or spaces at the end of the line and removes them. I can do: spaces or I can do tabs in EDT, but I need TPU to do both.     $ type trim_lines.tpub   PROCEDURE tpu$init_procedure ;3 input_file := GET_INFO(COMMAND_LINE, 'file_name') ;-2 main_buffer := CREATE_BUFFER('main', input_file) ;' POSITION (BEGINNING_OF (main_buffer)) ;y esc_char := ASCII(27) ;u# boldtxt := FAO("!AS[1m",esc_char) ;   norm := FAO("!AS[0m",esc_char) ; space_tab := ' ' ;$ pat1 := SPAN(space_tab) & LINE_END ; count := 0 ; trim_lines ;5 IF count <> 0 THEN WRITE_FILE (main_buffer) ; ENDIF ;n QUIT ; ENDPROCEDURE   PROCEDURE TRIM_LINES ON_ERROR IF count = 0 THEN, msg_text := FAO('!ASNo lines were trimmed in# !AS.!AS',boldtxt,input_file,norm) ;k ELSEB msg_text := FAO('!ASTrimmed Spaces and/or Tabs from !UL line!%S in( !AS!AS',boldtxt,count,input_file,norm) ; ENDIF ;v MESSAGE (msg_TEXT) ; RETURN ;
 ENDON_ERROR ;e LOOP# src_range := SEARCH(pat1,FORWARD) ;h$ POSITION (beginning_of (src_range));% ERASE_CHARACTER (LENGTH (src_range));h count := count + 1	 ENDLOOP ;o ENDPROCEDURE8 ! This save the PRW$UTL:TRIM_LINES.TPU$SECTION file when ! it is called by doing;3 ! $ EDIT/TPU/NOSECTION/COMMAND=TRIM_LINES/NODISPLAYt2 ! This way we can call this program using /SECTION ! to speed up the processing.  !u SAVE ("prw$utl:trim_lines") ;R !a, QUIT ; ! This is only for the /COMMAND call.  G > working in physics, it happened from time to time that I needed to dorG > global substitutes in many "input" files. With EDT, this is triviallyt> > easy as seen in the quote above. With EVE it becomes a totalA > nightmare. I can't use the "Do command line mode commands" in anH > script. I have to write (and waste time learning yet another language,C > debugging, etc.) or dig up examples of how to do this, reject the   H Or take a copy of the generic routine that has been posted twice in this1 tread and I don't know how many times previously.g  F > worthless ones (GSR.TPU, for example, which still no one can tell me. > how to make work), find one that works, etc.  H I thought Rob answered that in his message before. But here it is again;   1. Find these lines;.     global_search_replace ("xyz$_", "user$_");!     pat1:= "" & LINE_BEGIN & "t";e*     POSITION (BEGINNING_OF (main_buffer));&     global_search_replace (pat1, "T");E 2. Change the xyz$_ to your old string, change the user$_ to your new- string.-A 3. Keep repeating the POSITION (BEGINNING_OF (main_buffer));  and @ global_search_replace lines for each replacement you want to do.    ; > All this because I can't simply put the Do commands I runlD > interactively into a script. And I wouldn't call global search and  K You can, like I showed before in a previous post. The EVE commands that you F type at the Do prompt are available, just append EVE_ to the front andJ replace spaces with underscores. But you have to be careful if the command1 is going to ask for a response from the terminal.    >...  J I was one of the people who yelled at DEC when the V4.0 release notes saidI that EDT would be replaced by TPU. Back then I was accused a few times ofgK spending all day working on a CTRL-K then at the end of the day pressing my H newly defined key to write my program. I think the VMS group has stoppedJ saying that EDT will be removed from future versions., so we don't need toL have editor wars to convince them that EDT is just as useful as it ever was.I But TPU also has useful features, I think it is worthwhile to learn both.- Just my $0.02 CDN.   -- Peter WeaverL Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer, nor theK company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it sub-contracts to.8   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 02 19:07:12 +0200i) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)$N Subject: Re: How to rotate Apache/CSWS log files under VMS, without a restart?) Message-ID: <ca2gjjjgn340@elias.decus.ch>   h In article <d7791aa1.0205050731.13a74688@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:\ > p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote in message news:<d5S5NQ5j+iHQ@elias.decus.ch>...O >> Subject says it all, really. From the documentation on www.apache.org, I cansB >> find out how to do this on a *n*x system, but how to do on VMS? >> eQ >> Sure I can drop and restart Apache, but in my netblock I am 3rd after a couple'R >> of Linux boxes in uptime ratings. It's quite nice to see OpenVMS sitting there,' >> and I'd like to keep it that way :-)  >> o >> __f
 >> Paul Stures >> Switzerland > A > on Purveyor you set your logs to be created on a daily, weekly,n> > or monthly basis and don't even worry about that ... I don't > know about Apache ...u  D What on earth? The subject clearly says Apache/CSWS. If I had wanted( help with Purveyor I would have said so.  6 But while I have your attention, let me tell you this:  C We moved office a few months ago and in the general clearout of old@H stuff, I came across a CD with Purveyor on it. If you hadn't peristentlyE and repeatedly pestered us all, to the point where the record has gotn2 stuck, I may have been tempted to give it a whirl.  D You see, every time you bring the subject up, someone chimes in that% Purveyor is no longer being marketed.?  : I had absolutely no hesitation throwing the CD in the bin.  ! Please note the following points:k  D o - Apache/CSWS is being actively developed and supported by OpenVMS:     Engineering. An OpenVMS license gets you that support.- o - WASD and OSU are also actively supported.@? o - Purveyor is being neither actively developed nor supported.i  G Simple choice to me. Unless you already have a lot of code designed fore< Purveyor it comes a very firm last out of all four products. __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandd   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 02 19:29:05 +0200e) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)hN Subject: Re: How to rotate Apache/CSWS log files under VMS, without a restart?) Message-ID: <wagD2Rg8wO27@elias.decus.ch>m  ] In article <3cd5cfca.591996305@news.wcc.govt.nz>, rob.buxton@wcc.govt.nz (Rob Buxton) writes:dH > On 5 May 02 09:32:28 +0200, p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) wrote: > N >>Subject says it all, really. From the documentation on www.apache.org, I canA >>find out how to do this on a *n*x system, but how to do on VMS?e >>P >>Sure I can drop and restart Apache, but in my netblock I am 3rd after a coupleQ >>of Linux boxes in uptime ratings. It's quite nice to see OpenVMS sitting there,o& >>and I'd like to keep it that way :-) >> >>__ >>Paul Sture
 >>Switzerland  > ( > I think this came in with 1.2 of CSWS." > @sys$manager:apache$config flush > andi  > @sys$manager:apache$config new >   7 Just tested both and am happy to report they work fine.   D > I schedule these for a weekly job to flush the Access Logs & Error  > Logs and then create new ones. >  > Rob. >  -- p __
 Paul Sture Switzerland:   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 04:31:32 -0700e From: D2Klein@web.de (D2Klein)) Subject: is this suitable for openvms ???e= Message-ID: <84302dc0.0205060331.1c20269c@posting.google.com>.   hiF i got a cheap dec personal workstation 500a with an ide-cdrom-drive, aE qlogic-scsi-controller with a 4 gb hdd, a 2mb cache module, 256 mb ofgF ram and a compaq powerstorm 4d51t. i installed the newest firmware and@ everything is running fine for winnt and freebsd too but with noF xwindow. will this work for openvms too or what do i have to change to get it running ?   greetings axel   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:34:21 -0400* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>- Subject: RE: is this suitable for openvms ??? - Message-ID: <0033000062810957000002L072*@MHS>e   =0Ahi.  0 i got a cheap dec personal workstation 500a with      Good.   an ide-cdrom-drive,e      Maybe good.H    It'll work if it'll do 512 byte sectors and your VMS is 7.2 or later= ;A,    If not, you'll have to find a SCSI model.   a qlogic-scsi-controller with3  +    Good.  This is where most folks stumble.    a 4 gb hdd,   8    Probably good; Especially if its name starts with RZ.   a 2mb cache module,   :    I'm jealous.  I have 1 GB of RAM but no external cache.   256 mb of ram and       Good.   a compaq powerstorm 4d51t.    H    Not good.  the latest list I can find says that this card *isn't* su= pported.    B i installed the newest firmware and everything is running fine for* winnt and freebsd too but with no xwindow.  1    Did you install both the ARC and SRC consoles?0   will this work for openvms too  %    I know NT runs on the ARC console.n     VMS requires the SRC console.      BSD, I don't know.n   or what do i have to change to get it running ?  /    Console, definitely, if you haven't already.     Video card, most probably.t    CD-ROM, possibly.  #    You also need hobbyist licenses.s  	    WWWebbX   greetings axel=k   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:46:32 -0400* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>- Subject: RE: is this suitable for openvms ???V- Message-ID: <0033000062812937000002L072*@MHS>    =0AWhoops- spoke too soon.  & This from a comp.os.vms google search:    E        If you have a Powerstorm 4D10T (which I believe typically camesD    with the "a" series - at least it did with mine ), you'll need toH    use VMS 7.1-2 or VMS 7.2 and get the latest graphics patches in orde= r H    to use it with VMS. VMS will still run without these patches, but DE= CWindowsD    won't, the screen will just operate in character mode ( ie like a    fairly dumb terminal )    WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETv" Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 7:30 AMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET) Subject: is this suitable for openvms ???e     hiF i got a cheap dec personal workstation 500a with an ide-cdrom-drive, aE qlogic-scsi-controller with a 4 gb hdd, a 2mb cache module, 256 mb oftF ram and a compaq powerstorm 4d51t. i installed the newest firmware and@ everything is running fine for winnt and freebsd too but with noF xwindow. will this work for openvms too or what do i have to change to get it running ?   greetings axel=e   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 12:31:59 -0400u2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>- Subject: Re: is this suitable for openvms ??? . Message-ID: <3CD6AFFF.8D3D9A7A@mindspring.com>   > > an ide-cdrom-drive,e >r >    Maybe good.J >    It'll work if it'll do 512 byte sectors and your VMS is 7.2 or later;. >    If not, you'll have to find a SCSI model.  * No IDE CD-ROM or DVD-ROM that I'm aware of. does 512-byte sectors, and VMS does not depend- upon IDE CD-ROMs having 512-byte sectors. Thee. DQDRIVER does all of its work using the native. 2K CD-ROM sectors. Only the SCSI driver needed/ CD-ROMs with firmware mods hat enabled 512-bytet sector mode.  + Atlant (author of the production DQDRIVER )s   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 13:15:49 -0400* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>- Subject: RE: is this suitable for openvms ???y- Message-ID: <0033000062838543000002L032*@MHS>   . =0AI certainly stand corrected, and thanks for all your hard work, Atlant.l  . I've got one of those Island Computer PW433a's. that is running hobbyist VMS right now with an IDE CD-ROM;i  < It still looks strange to see it come up as a DQAxxx device-  ) Since it worked properly from the outset,_2 quite frankly it never occurred to me to check and! see what the settings on it were.o  2 And you're right-- I was extrapolating from what I1 knew about the preferences of SCSI CD-ROM drives.r  , (proof that you shouldn't do that in public)   :^)*  2 I spent far more time trying to find someone who'd2 trade me a QLogic 10x0 based SCSI adapter for less than two arms and a leg--,  3 Anyway, it won't be the first time that I was wrong 9 shooting from the hip, and it probably won't be the last.l   WWWebb     -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETm# Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 12:34 PMiB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET- Subject: RE: is this suitable for openvms ???t     > > an ide-cdrom-drive,  >e >    Maybe good.H >    It'll work if it'll do 512 byte sectors and your VMS is 7.2 or lat= er;a. >    If not, you'll have to find a SCSI model.  * No IDE CD-ROM or DVD-ROM that I'm aware of. does 512-byte sectors, and VMS does not depend- upon IDE CD-ROMs having 512-byte sectors. Thei. DQDRIVER does all of its work using the native. 2K CD-ROM sectors. Only the SCSI driver needed/ CD-ROMs with firmware mods hat enabled 512-byteo sector mode.  , Atlant (author of the production DQDRIVER )=   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 09:03:22 +0200E9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> # Subject: Re: Listing updated files. ' Message-ID: <3CD62ABA.80CAD070@aaa.com>    One way might be to :=  ) At the end of your BACKUP script, enter :0   $!< $ IF F$SEARCH("BACKUP_DATE.DAT") THEN DELETE BACKUP_DATE.DAT  $ COPY SYS$INPUT BACKUP_DATE.DAT$ Temp file for saving of BACKUP date. $! $ EXIT      < Then, at the begining of your BACKUP script (run next time).@ USe the creation date of the BACKUP_DATE.DAT file as input value# to the /SINCE switch in DIRECTORY :i    ; $ LAST_BACKUP_DATE = F$FILE_ATTRIB("BACKUP_DATE.DAT","CDT")aE $ DIRECTORY /SINCE="''LAST_BACKUP_DATE'" /MOD /OUT=MODIFIED_FILES.TXT=* $! [do whatever you want with the file...] $!# $! continue with the BACKUP script._ $!    @ There is realy no nead to enter anything INTO the file, the date+ is nicely preserved by VMS in the header...-   Jan-Erik Sderholm.    Johno wrote: >  > HiG > Each week my command procedure backs up a specific directory. I would:D > like to include during the running of the procedure details of anyG > file that has been updated since the last time the procedure was run.a- > Whats the easiest way of implementing this?n > Johnoa   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 08:16:45 -0500l- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler).# Subject: Re: Listing updated files.p3 Message-ID: <lDtYnZc7lCdN@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  l In article <10822590.0205051449.3d4ae1bc@posting.google.com>, JohnEllicottington@lycos.co.uk (Johno) writes: > HiG > Each week my command procedure backs up a specific directory. I wouldsD > like to include during the running of the procedure details of anyG > file that has been updated since the last time the procedure was run.l- > Whats the easiest way of implementing this?r      1) define "details"   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 08:13:32 -0500 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) A Subject: Re: MacOS/X is the leading Unix (was "Itanium Troubles")M3 Message-ID: <dmUyiPKptrRF@eisner.encompasserve.org>R  n In article <3CD509CE.3D4D72A1@YouKnowWhere.com>, "Atlant G. Schmidt" <Atlant.Schmidt@YouKnowWhere.com> writes: > I > So, in *ONE QUARTER*, Apple shipped about 3 times as many units as Sun,eH > the largest Unix vendor, shipped in the entire year and as of Jan 1st,I > *ALL* of those Macintoshes were running OS/X from the factory. At a runoF > rate that exceeds 2.4 Million desktops and laptops per year, I'd sayI > that supports my claim fairly well. I don't have figures for Linux, and.H > we could debate whether I meant to include that in "Unix", but there'sI > no doubt that among the true Unixes, MacOS/X now has the leading share.f >   >    As well it should, since it's the only one with a good user
    interface.A   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 09:06:29 -0500+ From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>.A Subject: RE: MacOS/X is the leading Unix (was "Itanium Troubles")aJ Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784542@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;u 	charset="iso-8859-1"w   > -----Original Message-----D > From: koehler@encompasserve.org [mailto:koehler@encompasserve.org]  > > In article <3CD509CE.3D4D72A1@YouKnowWhere.com>, "Atlant G. 4 > Schmidt" <Atlant.Schmidt@YouKnowWhere.com> writes:  = > > no doubt that among the true Unixes, MacOS/X now has the e > leading share.  @ >    As well it should, since it's the only one with a good user >    interface.   ? Not to get into another off-topic argument, but actually, theret= are at least two other Unixes with good interfaces -- I wouldp@ say better.  NeXTSTEP (Yes, it's now defunct, so may not count),	 and IRIX.i   Chris     ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer, Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");_ 'r    --=_IS_MIME_Boundary) Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-asciiP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  Content-Disposition: inlinet  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------N  C The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,m1 protected from disclosure, and may be privileged. N The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)L of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,P you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of ? this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. +N If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately> by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
 Thank you.  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------i   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary--   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 12:27:24 -0400n2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>A Subject: Re: MacOS/X is the leading Unix (was "Itanium Troubles") . Message-ID: <3CD6AEEC.42BDA9A2@mindspring.com>   Christopher Smith wrote:  A > Not to get into another off-topic argument, but actually, therei? > are at least two other Unixes with good interfaces -- I wouldhB > say better.  NeXTSTEP (Yes, it's now defunct, so may not count), > and IRIX.    Chris:  7 One could argue that MacOS/X *IS* NeXTSTEP. I was neveri: personally familiar with NeXTSTEP, but certainly Jobs came> back to Apple with many of his ideas intact and he brought all: the remaining NeXT technologists with him. Also many, many5 comments in the Mac newsgroups are of the form: "Hey,h3 feature <blah-de-blah> in MacOS/X is just it was ins
 NeXTSTEP!"   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 16:42:42 +0200F= From: Arne =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com>a Subject: Re: Memory Corruption) Message-ID: <3CD69662.463BA807@gtech.com>    Jason O'Donnell wrote:] > Arne Vajhj <arne.vajhoej@gtech.com> wrote in message news:<3CC5564E.511F7CCD@gtech.com>...w > > jlsue wrote:I > > > Here's another thing to try.  When compiling optimized, turn on all I > > > checks.  For Fortran, this was /check=all iirc.  At the very least,w > > > put in /checks=bounds. > > > J > > > What you will then get is an accvio if/when your code tries to stuff > > > too much into a variable.t > >eD > > In very rare cases /CHECK=BOUND is not possible, because it will. > > effect expected behaviour of the program ! > E > Can you post an example of good coding practices where /check=boundt > would not be wanted?  2 I did not say anything about good coding practice.   Here are an example:   DYN.INC  -------d           INTEGER*4 BASE(1)l         COMMON /DYN/BASE   DYN.FORt -------V  "       INTEGER*4 FUNCTION MALLOC(N)       INTEGER*4 Nm       INCLUDE 'DYN.INC'd       INTEGER*4 DECC$MALLOCs5       MALLOC=(DECC$MALLOC(%VAL(N*4))-%LOC(BASE(1)))/4        RETURN	       ENDe   DYNTEST.FOR  -----------o         PROGRAM DYNTEST        INCLUDE 'DYN.INC'        INTEGER*4 PTRs       INTEGER*4 MALLOC       PTR=MALLOC(100)        DO 100 I=1,100         BASE(PTR+I)=It 100   CONTINUE	       ENDh  
 Pretty ? No !t   Arne   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 09:51:29 -0400_% From: Jim Agnew <agnew@mail2.vcu.edu>j Subject: Re: New to VAXa- Message-ID: <3CD68A61.AED9E9F4@mail2.vcu.edu>?  . Oh, I forgot, the Robin was labled a VT-180.     Jim Agnew wrote: >  > David Froble wrote:g > >.   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 09:50:44 -0400(% From: Jim Agnew <agnew@mail2.vcu.edu>N Subject: Re: New to VAX.- Message-ID: <3CD68A34.2F0B37D2@mail2.vcu.edu>m   David Froble wrote:o > N > I'm sure the list is far from complete.  I figured others would fill it out. > Q > One person mentioned the VT-241, and that jogs my memory a bit.  Possibly there>N > was never a VT-230, and the VT-240 was black & white, and the Vt-241 was the > color model. >   G Right, never saw a vt230, we had the vt240, and the vt241 was the color  version.  L > Then there was the Robin, a VT-100 with an embedded computer, running CP/M* > possibly, and some funky 8 inch floppys. >   E 5", I had one, ran rather well, put a booster fan on top of the vt100IH air slots, that puppy got HOT.  when I had it fully configured with 4 5"E floppies, the cpu, and a la50 printer, when i cut on the power strip,s   the house lights dimmed... !!!  H only locked up on me ONE time in 3 years...  and of course it was when IF was showing it off as a computer that never locked up to my pc-bigoted boss.t  E I was always looking hungrily at his pc anyhow since he could run Redo# Storm Rising, and I couldn't... ;-)s   I had adventure, tho..  I > I think there was a VT-103 also, but cannot remember what it was.  Alsoh@ > something targetted at IBM.  Possibly the one mentioned below. > # > It's been a while, over 25 years.y >  > Dave >  > John Smith wrote:  > O > > Weren't there a couple of 'block mode' variants (similar to 3270) along theu > > way too? > >t > >c9 > > "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagel* > > news:3CD180AE.3030000@tsoft-inc.com... > >  > >>Steve wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Hi there, > >>>oL > >>>I'm very new to Vax systems and I was questionning about terminals. CanC > >>>anyone explain me what's the differences between VT100, VT340,h4 > >>>VT420...etc..etc... what makes them different ? > >>> @ > >>>I can't find any "clear" document on the net about that ... > >>>c > >>>Thanks a lot! > >>>.
 > >>>Steve > >>>uH > >>A brief, and not necessarily complete, history of the DEC terminals. > >>" > >>VT05B - a very early CRT, 1973A > >>VT52 - A rather large box introduced in the mid to late 1970shD > >>VT100 - The beginning of the  rather successful line of DEC CRTs1 > >>VT101 - really can't remember the differencese$ > >>VT102 - A VT100 with more memory" > >>VT220 - Successor to the VT1003 > >>VT230 - A graphics terminal, for REGIS and sucho( > >>VT240 - a color version of the VT2305 > >>VT320 - smaller and better successor to the VT220h" > >>VT330 - successor to the VT230" > >>VT340 - successor to the VT240D > >>VT420 - successor to the VT320, included sessions, more features? > >>VT510 - limited ability successor to the VT420, no sessionsoG > >>VT520 - full featured successor to the VT420, allowed more sessions J > >>VT525 - a box that provided VT520 capabilities, using a PC monitor for > >> > > display, > >0N > >>         allowed various color selections and such.  Nice but a bit pricy. > >>N > >>There were a few more, not very significant models.  All the above is fromL > >>memory and without any research.  Some data could be wrong.  None of the# > >>X-windows devices are included.a > >>E > >>The VT520 is the (relative) best of all the terminals, all thingsw > >> > > considered.t > >iL > >>The VT525 is better, but more pieces and larger.  A VT420 is also a niceM > >>terminal.  The VT320 is probably the smallest of all of them, but doesn'txA > >>support multiple sessions.  It makes a good console termianl.: > >> > >>Dave, full of trivia today.a > >> > >> > >j > >R   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 08:43:30 -05000- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)eB Subject: Non-Microsoft keyboards for USB !!! (was: USB on OpenVMS)3 Message-ID: <tJxF4FyDc74Q@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  q In article <BHvB8.18$R65.376857@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:3E > Yes.  We are currently having a keyboard vendor build a LK401-stylePL > keyboard, we will be getting the prototypes in the next month or so (thereL > was an obscure chip problem that we found in testing a USB keyboard, whichI > delayed things a smidge).  The code is already done for it, we are justt > waiting for them to arrive.   
 Hooray !!!  = I won't be cut off from buying future VMS machines after all.i   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 04:39:43 -0700 (PDT). From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> Subject: OpenVMS Certification@ Message-ID: <20020506113943.30895.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com>  	 Hi people   ( How many guys are cetified in OpenVMS in. this newsgroup ??? Was it worthful for you ???+ May be there is a possibility for me to get  a certification.   Regardsl   FC     =====  ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilo fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?1 Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellnessW http://health.yahoo.com    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:56:07 -0400- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>t" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Certification5 Message-ID: <ab65is$fki4g$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>   ; "Fabio Cardoso" <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote in messagew: news:20020506113943.30895.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com... > Hi peoplew >t* > How many guys are cetified in OpenVMS in0 > this newsgroup ??? Was it worthful for you ???- > May be there is a possibility for me to getV > a certification. >   K I wrote the "System Administration," " V7.x Network Administration" and "V7NJ Advanced Administration, Performance and Support" tests. The first one wasL free because vouchers were given out at DECUS last year, the second two wereE free because they were beta exams. But I can not get my certification G because I don't have a basic networking exam. The last time I looked iteK would cost somewhere around $200 Canadian to write a basic networking exam.oF I don't think it is worth it for me to spend that much just to get twoK certificates. If I find some basic networking exam to write for free then I,1 will, otherwise I won't bother getting certified.<  D BTW: The Network Administration exam was very UCX and DECNet Phase VC specific. I should not have passed that test since I have 0 Phase VrK experience. My only UCX experience is that one of the people who worked forsL me in a previous life installed it on one of our systems and I had to listenI to him complain about how difficult it was compated to Wollongong. If theVH test would have been TCPWare and DECNet Phase IV specific, I should haveC passed, but the fact that I passed that test with no UCX or Phase V 0 experience shows me that the test was worthless.   -- Peter WeaverL Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer, nor theK company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it sub-contracts to.<   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 11:53:56 -0400s1 From: "Mark D. Jilson" <jilly@clarityconnect.com>c" Subject: Re: OpenVMS Certification2 Message-ID: <3CD6A714.6F3265FB@clarityconnect.com>  : I have taken and passed a number of the certifications ;*)   Fabio Cardoso wrote: >  > Hi peoplei > * > How many guys are cetified in OpenVMS in0 > this newsgroup ??? Was it worthful for you ???- > May be there is a possibility for me to gete > a certification. > 	 > Regards  >  > FC >  > =====g > ========================== > Fbio dos Santos Cardoso > OpenVMS System Manager > Rio de Janeiro - Brazilu > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br > ==========================   -- tC Jilly	- Working from Home in the Chemung River Valley - Waverly, NYe0 	- jilly@clarityconnect.com			- Brett Bodine fan. 	- Mark.Jilson@Compaq.com			- since 1975 or so, 	- http://www.jilly.baka.com               -   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 05:21:55 -0700M# From: tadamsmar@aol.com (Tom Adams)yB Subject: Re: Reducing size of incremental backup - will this work?= Message-ID: <793af3df.0205060421.1dd82d2d@posting.google.com>n  s SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) wrote in message news:<343f30ae.0205020948.1a0e17fc@posting.google.com>... j > tadamsmar@aol.com (Tom Adams) wrote in message news:<793af3df.0205020426.5a81857c@posting.google.com>...w > > hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote in message news:<fm0A8.31$n_1.460867@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>... t > > > In article <343f30ae.0205011545.1a27713b@posting.google.com>, SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) writes:o > > > :tadamsmar@aol.com (Tom Adams) wrote in message news:<793af3df.0204300858.7baf1b61@posting.google.com>... L > > > :> I want to try to do backup/record on a directory to keep the entire< > > > :> contents from being backuped.  Something like this:	 > > > :> B/ > > > :> !Backup to force record of backup date 4 > > > :> $BACKUP/RECORD  DSA0:[FOO]BAR.DIR DUMMY.TMP > > > :> $DELETE DUMMY.TMP.*. > > > :> !Proceed with real incremental backupA > > > :> $BACKUP/SINCE=BACKUP DSA0{000000...]  TAPEDRIVE:BLAHBLAH  > > > G > > >   You can set the dates -- including the BACKUP date -- using thedF > > >   Freeware DFU tool.  It's rather easier than the proposed, and $ > > >   a much more direct solution. > > > K > > > :> This directory will never be renamed.  It is a large direcory withOM > > > :> some file creates and deletes happening in it every day, but only a cG > > > :> small portion of the files in it are changed on a daily basis. 	 > > > :> TO > > > :> Is there any problem with this?  I am not sure of all the reasons thatdL > > > :> VMS was revised in the first place to backup all the contents of a < > > > :> directory when the directory's modify date changed. > > > F > > >   BACKUP/RECORD is intended to be used with /IMAGE, and then theD > > >   backups are run incremental (and restored with /INCREMENTAL)G > > >   to rebuild the disk.  If you are interested in this, you really2G > > >   will want to review the examples of performing full BACKUP and :J > > >   subsequent incremental operations, as listed in the BACKUP manual. > > > : - > > > :This is fine. But I would change it tog > > > :oJ > > > :    $ BACKUP/RECORD DSA0:[FOO]BAR.DIR NL:A.B/SAVE_SET/NOCRC/GROUP=0; > > > :    $ BACKUP/VERIFY DSA0:[000000...]/SINCE=BACKUP  -e' > > > :          TAPEDRIVE:BLAHBLAH.BCKc > > > :a > > > M > > >   /NOCRC and /GROUP=0 mean you really trust your tape hardware to work.  > > > J > > >   Given you have shadowsets, I'd look seriously at quescing the disk: > > >   activity briefly, and then splitting off a volume. > > > J > > > :This way you'll get the old incremental behavior for that directory6 > > > :but the new behavior for all other directories. > > > K > > >   /NOINCREMENTAL (and the current BACKUP ECO kit) is a better way to t5 > > >   get the old behaviour, if you really want it.  > > > H > > But, I am not sure I want the old behaviour in general.  I just haveE > > this one large directory that is part of an automated application F > > where I know that the directory name will never get modified.  TheC > > directory is a historical database for a real time application.dF > > Only today's files grow and yesterday's files get compressed.  AllG > > other files never change till they get purged after a month or two.t > A > Then use either DFU or the BACKUP method above to mark only thea > directory of interest. >  > Disclaimer: JMHO > Alan E. Feldmanh$ > afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com  F It was JMHO, too, but now I find that it does not work.  Not sure why.I I do the dummy backup right before I perform the grand incremental backupnK of the disk.  Anyway, I am now going to just mark files NOBACKUP after they7B get there first backup, the files that never change again that is.  I Maybe it is just a myth that this works.  The directories up the tree alloF have old modified dates. The one with the fresh modify date is gettingJ subjected to the dummy backup/record right before the general incremental.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 09:32:56 GMT,( From: spam@devnull.com (Russell Wallace)  Subject: Re: Revisionist history0 Message-ID: <3cd64d58.338443807@news.eircom.net>  3 On Sun, 05 May 2002 20:48:08 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge"u$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  6 >"Russell Wallace" <spam@devnull.com> wrote in message >>H >> I got the impression their plan was to dump x86 ultimately when IA-64 >> replaced it.r >eH >Not in any near term future.  x86 is cheap and fast for the desktop and >small servers.r   *nod* Fair enough.  I >> Now that IA-64 seems unlikely to outlive Alpha let alone x86, probablyiI >> their only option will be to switch to x86-64. It'll be interesting to-) >> see how late they leave it to do this.- >-M >Only if you are listening to Bill Todd.  Intel hasn't backed away from IA64,s >and I don't think they will.c  E But at the end of the day it's not what Intel does that matters, it's  what the customers do.  F Why do you think customers will pay large sums of money to switch to aC chip that's slower than what they have already? (Serious question.)e   -- n3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."n! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallaceu mail:rw(at)eircom(dot)nete   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 09:54:54 GMTn( From: spam@devnull.com (Russell Wallace)  Subject: Re: Revisionist history0 Message-ID: <3cd6501c.339152210@news.eircom.net>  3 On Sun, 05 May 2002 20:44:47 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge" $ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  F >What does this mean?  Do you know any company that delegates critical* >business decisions to "technology types"?  F No (except in the cases where the CEO is from a technical background).    >Several important technologists# >were part of the decision process.-  E However, AFAIK it was made for business reasons rather than technicalh$ ones, as you yourself suggest below:  J >The decision was made to not stay in the CPU development business.  SinceI >Intel is in the CHIP business, and not in the system business - it wouldy< >seem to me to make much better sense than the alternatives.  F Yes, I can certainly see the logic of this. However, it seems to me itC would have been more sensible (from a business viewpoint, nevermindaC the technology) to wait until the alternative is a confirmed winnerw8 before terminating development on the existing platform.  < Of course it's water under the bridge at this stage, but two) interesting issues are still outstanding:m  D - VMS et at are left between a chip whose development is being wound? up, and another which nobody's buying; they're going to have tocD transition to something with a future. What chip will be chosen (I'mA betting x86-64), how long will it take before they start (I've nomC idea) and how many heads will roll once the truth sinks in (I've noi idea there either :))?  = - Does the mindset that says "we don't want to be in the chipgE business" also extend to "we don't want to be in the operating system E business"? (Some people, myself included, get the impression it does;bD I'll admit I could be wrong.) If it does, what will the consequences" of that be for HP's product lines?   Interesting times...   -- t3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."o! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallacee mail:rw(at)eircom(dot)net-   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 11:06:14 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk  Subject: Re: Revisionist history+ Message-ID: <ab5o36$ono$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>M  \ In article <3CD4BBD0.760F6399@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: >"John E. Malmberg" wrote:K >> Since the 80386 and later all offer 4 protection modes, one would assumeN) >> that the 64 bit extensions would also.  >ON >I had been given the impression during the many discussions about porting VMSO >to the 8086 that that architecture lacked certain features and that would make01 >the port difficult. Is there any truth to this ?c  L I would suggest that we have proof that is not the case since there are VAX # simulators on 80x86 eg Charon VAX     
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 07:55:25 -0500i- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)w  Subject: Re: Revisionist history3 Message-ID: <A9LpchAfV6V3@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3CD4BBD0.760F6399@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > "John E. Malmberg" wrote: K >> Since the 80386 and later all offer 4 protection modes, one would assumew) >> that the 64 bit extensions would also.  > O > I had been given the impression during the many discussions about porting VMS P > to the 8086 that that architecture lacked certain features and that would make2 > the port difficult. Is there any truth to this ?  A    Most of those features showed up in the 80286.  Only a few arep4    missing from IA-64 and they can be worked around.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:13:50 GMT,5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>m  Subject: Re: Revisionist history9 Message-ID: <ikvB8.12$S55.322708@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>h   Bill Todd wrote in message ... > A >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message 3 >news:PIgB8.3$0s3.128119@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net...g >>8 >> "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message; >> news:haGA8.1527$M7.211119@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...A >> >E >> > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message 8 >> > news:A2EA8.35$FY2.677920@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net... >> > >> > ... >> > >>I >> I started to respond to your response, but decided that it isn't worth  theaK >> time.  Fortunately, you have pretty much nothing to do with any chip, orlK >> their future - other than being a critic (who somehow has found a way to . >> apply "revisionism" to future predictions). >xH >Wrong again, Fred.  The statement I called revisionist was not that EV8C >*would have* encountered significant problems in the future due totK >underestimation of the complexity of SMT (a statement which made by anyoneeK >other than those intimately involved in the realization of the product, or L >another similar product, seems presumptuous to the point of idiocy), it wasJ >that EV8 *was* encountering significant unexpected problems in this area.H >Since that flies in the face of what the EV8 group has been saying, andJ >since they far better than anyone else were in a position to know, I call3 >that revisionism (of the best evidence available).T >   L For every chip we ever built, if you asked the guys designing it, they wouldI not tell you that there were any problems.  EV8 was far too early in it'scA development to have any idea of the problems that might have been  encountered.  D Since EV8 was never that far advanced to start hitting the practicalH problems never considered in design and simulation - it is impossible toJ predict how well the project would have gone.  The comment that apparentlyH triggered you into yet-another rant, was from someone extrapolating from past experience.  H >Whether it's indeed fortunate that I have nothing to do with any chip'sL >future is debatable, I guess:  I certainly wouldn't have thrown Alpha away,H >and I suspect some here would have preferred that outcome to what those: >bright lads who *did* control the situation came up with. >   C Why you're not running Intel I'll never guess.  You're soooo smart.i   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 08:16:24 -0500 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)>  Subject: Re: Revisionist history3 Message-ID: <sO4LYaxWpAW3@eisner.encompasserve.org>   L In article <ab5o36$ono$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:N > I would suggest that we have proof that is not the case since there are VAX % > simulators on 80x86 eg Charon VAX  g  G    Turing showed that this is always possible.  However emulating a VAXUC    on a system with (for example) no mempoy protection would not beaF    anywhere near the same as porting VMS to such a machine.  The firstF    may be doable, but excruciatingly slow.  The latter would result in#    something that just waasn't VMS.    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:23:21 GMTe5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>   Subject: Re: Revisionist history9 Message-ID: <dtvB8.13$v65.362645@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>a  A David Froble wrote in message <3CD5E545.2050703@tsoft-inc.com>...y >John Smith wrote: >oG >> Intel is the largest 'white box' server manufacturer/supplier in the- >> business. >> >>C >> "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messageo >mE >>>The decision was made to not stay in the CPU development business.. >i >eL >Now this is a statement that cannot be argued with.  Many have seen through allhJ >the BS, and plainly Compaq didn't want to be in the CPU business, even if they6 >had and would continue to have the best in the world. >=# >But then one more rationalization:a >s
 >>>  SinceK >>>Intel is in the CHIP business, and not in the system business - it would=> >>>seem to me to make much better sense than the alternatives. >_ >_H >And as with every other rationalization that has come out of Compaq, as seen: >above, this one like all others cannot withstand reality. >oL >Why can't these people just come out and say that they didn't want to be in thecG >chip business, and quit trying to justify their actions with any otherd reasons.H >  There are no other reasons.  Treating their customers as if they were gullableL >idiots (not mentioning anyone specific) is almost, but not quite as bad, as >breaking commitments. >   L What is the rationalization?  If you decide that you don't want to be in theK CPU business, then the next step is to see if there is someone who wants to"L take over or at least partner with you to supply the chip, and failing that,K then who's CPU's you will use in your systems.  While IBM makes a find CPU,aG it is also a major systems competetor.  Sparc is a non-starter.  x86-64.E isn't positioned for the enterprise server.  Intel is the leading CPUoA provider in the world, and has a 64-bit CPU that can scale to the H enterprise, and which they are firmly behind.  Is it as good as Power orL Alpha - not yet.  But Intel, who is in the business of selling chips and notL systems, would seem to be a good choice of vendor, and IA64 is their CPU forJ enterprise computing.  On the non-VMS front, it dovetails with IA32 as the: desktop and small server side - running all the same OS's.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:32:36 GMTe5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>n  Subject: Re: Revisionist history9 Message-ID: <UBvB8.16$R65.376857@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>w  H Russell Wallace wrote in message <3cd6501c.339152210@news.eircom.net>...4 >On Sun, 05 May 2002 20:44:47 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge"% ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  >sG >>What does this mean?  Do you know any company that delegates criticalr+ >>business decisions to "technology types"?  >nG >No (except in the cases where the CEO is from a technical background).o >n! >>Several important technologists-$ >>were part of the decision process. >0F >However, AFAIK it was made for business reasons rather than technical% >ones, as you yourself suggest below:i >   C Most decisions in a business are business decisions, but it was notp  decoupled from technical advice.  K >>The decision was made to not stay in the CPU development business.  SinceiJ >>Intel is in the CHIP business, and not in the system business - it would= >>seem to me to make much better sense than the alternatives.  >eG >Yes, I can certainly see the logic of this. However, it seems to me it D >would have been more sensible (from a business viewpoint, nevermindD >the technology) to wait until the alternative is a confirmed winner9 >before terminating development on the existing platform., >e  J I guess that all depends.  I'm not privvy to the financial implications ofE trying to do *both* at the same time.  So we picked a course, and are-D continuing to provide Alpha for a reasonably long transition period.  = >Of course it's water under the bridge at this stage, but twon* >interesting issues are still outstanding: > E >- VMS et at are left between a chip whose development is being woundO@ >up, and another which nobody's buying; they're going to have toE >transition to something with a future. What chip will be chosen (I'm B >betting x86-64), how long will it take before they start (I've noD >idea) and how many heads will roll once the truth sinks in (I've no >idea there either :))?a >w  K It's an interesting bet, but 1) I'm not sure I would take it, or agree thatgJ IA64 has "failed".  The only thing that can be said is that the first IA64E chip was only bought by-and-large by people engaged in porting to thebG architecture.  The real test will be the next year or two.  2) It's not L really clear that x84-64 really will scale, or who will be embracing it as aH systems vendor.  While it would not suprise me to see it appear in smallK systems from a vendor like Dell, we still have to see who will try to buildMI an enterprise system around it.  Sun would be the likely victim - if theyS= weren't so wrapped up in clinging to the rapidly dying Sparc.   > >- Does the mindset that says "we don't want to be in the chipF >business" also extend to "we don't want to be in the operating systemF >business"? (Some people, myself included, get the impression it does;E >I'll admit I could be wrong.) If it does, what will the consequencese# >of that be for HP's product lines?e >y  D We'll see.  This week starts the HP era for VMS, and we'll find out.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:34:37 GMT?5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>w  Subject: Re: Revisionist history9 Message-ID: <NDvB8.17$765.340088@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>i  H Russell Wallace wrote in message <3cd64d58.338443807@news.eircom.net>...4 >On Sun, 05 May 2002 20:48:08 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge"% ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:N >M7 >>"Russell Wallace" <spam@devnull.com> wrote in messagee >>>tI >>> I got the impression their plan was to dump x86 ultimately when IA-64l >>> replaced it. >>I >>Not in any near term future.  x86 is cheap and fast for the desktop and  >>small servers. >n >*nod* Fair enough.  >tJ >>> Now that IA-64 seems unlikely to outlive Alpha let alone x86, probablyJ >>> their only option will be to switch to x86-64. It'll be interesting to* >>> see how late they leave it to do this. >>H >>Only if you are listening to Bill Todd.  Intel hasn't backed away from IA64,t >>and I don't think they will. > F >But at the end of the day it's not what Intel does that matters, it's >what the customers do.t >gG >Why do you think customers will pay large sums of money to switch to ahD >chip that's slower than what they have already? (Serious question.) >t  L Anyone running a Sparc ;-)  It *isn't* slower than what the vast majority ofJ customers are currently running, it's just not faster than a number of HPS CPU's.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:01:08 GMTh( From: spam@devnull.com (Russell Wallace)  Subject: Re: Revisionist history0 Message-ID: <3cd68b82.354360014@news.eircom.net>  3 On Mon, 06 May 2002 13:34:37 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge"a$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  I >Russell Wallace wrote in message <3cd64d58.338443807@news.eircom.net>...e >>H >>Why do you think customers will pay large sums of money to switch to aE >>chip that's slower than what they have already? (Serious question.)s >  >Anyone running a Sparc ;-)n   *grin*  C But if people wouldn't trade in their Sparcs for fast machines like > Alpha and POWER, why do you expect them to trade in for a slow machine?  1 >It *isn't* slower than what the vast majority ofdK >customers are currently running, it's just not faster than a number of HPSr >CPU's.a  C It's also not faster than the Pentium boxes people are buying theirmB kids to play Quake on. In fact, last I checked Sparc is the _only_D thing it beats on speed. Are you expecting Sun's customers to defectE to IA-64 for performance reasons? If so, why wouldn't they defect to,-> say, POWER4 which offers much better performance? Otherwise myC question stands: why do you expect people to trade in fast machinestC for a slower one? (Again, this is a serious question; I'm genuinely  curious about this.)   -- e3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent." ! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallacec mail:rw(at)eircom(dot)net>   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:24:46 GMT>5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>i  Subject: Re: Revisionist history9 Message-ID: <OmwB8.22$g75.400550@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>A  H Russell Wallace wrote in message <3cd68b82.354360014@news.eircom.net>...4 >On Mon, 06 May 2002 13:34:37 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge"% ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:o > J >>Russell Wallace wrote in message <3cd64d58.338443807@news.eircom.net>... >>>oI >>>Why do you think customers will pay large sums of money to switch to anF >>>chip that's slower than what they have already? (Serious question.) >> >>Anyone running a Sparc ;-) >u >*grin*e >oD >But if people wouldn't trade in their Sparcs for fast machines like? >Alpha and POWER, why do you expect them to trade in for a slown	 >machine?t >/  K Define "slow".  It's "slower" than Alpha and Power, but it isn't "slow".  I-C don't expect to see VMS users trading in their Alpha's for a while.l  2 >>It *isn't* slower than what the vast majority ofL >>customers are currently running, it's just not faster than a number of HPS >>CPU's. >FD >It's also not faster than the Pentium boxes people are buying theirC >kids to play Quake on. In fact, last I checked Sparc is the _only_ E >thing it beats on speed. Are you expecting Sun's customers to defectEF >to IA-64 for performance reasons? If so, why wouldn't they defect to,? >say, POWER4 which offers much better performance? Otherwise myeD >question stands: why do you expect people to trade in fast machinesD >for a slower one? (Again, this is a serious question; I'm genuinely >curious about this.)I >l  H Pentium boxes for low CPU counts are faster, and more cost effective (at least just on purchase price).  I When you go out to buy a car, is it's top speed, or it's 0-60 performance,H the only qualification?  If that was everyone's criteria, most car linesK would go out of business.  We'd all be driving Corvette's, Z8's, Ferrari's,wL etc.  You probably buy a system based on it being able to run what you need,I perform at a level which meets (or exceeds) your needs, and which has thes> lowest price -- of course, that ignores "loyalty" to a vendor.  I If IA64 has the software you need, be it VMS, HP-UX, or Windows - and theiJ related 3rd party software.  Has the performance you need, and has a lowerH price than the competition - then it would seem to me to be a reasonable choice to consider.y   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:21:33 GMT?( From: spam@devnull.com (Russell Wallace)  Subject: Re: Revisionist history0 Message-ID: <3cd68e65.355099164@news.eircom.net>  3 On Mon, 06 May 2002 13:32:36 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge" $ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  L >It's an interesting bet, but 1) I'm not sure I would take it, or agree thatK >IA64 has "failed".  The only thing that can be said is that the first IA64aF >chip was only bought by-and-large by people engaged in porting to the >architecture.  3 Mmm, I think some other things can be said as well:2  ? - IA64 was supposed to offer superior performance; in its firstRD incarnation at least, it has ended up offering inferior performance.E (With a high price tag and severe heat dissipation problems to boot.)t  @ - Current forecasts (at least the ones I've seen) for the secondD incarnation suggest it too will be inferior in performance to pretty much everything except Sparc.o  F - Since the reason why we should incur the high cost of switching to aE new chip architecture rather than just 64-bit-izing the familiar x86,eD was supposed to be performance, "failure" strikes me as a reasonable word to use.  , >The real test will be the next year or two.  > True; if McKinley surprises us all and jumps to the top of the= performance league, IA64 might still be in with a chance. I'm . skeptical about this happening, but we'll see.   >2) It's not+ >really clear that x84-64 really will scalee   Why wouldn't it?  D Why is it clearer that IA64 will scale? (It's facing the problems ofF lower per-chip performance and greater heat dissipation to start with;B those are the main differences that I'm aware of in this context.)  ! >or who will be embracing it as atI >systems vendor.  While it would not suprise me to see it appear in small L >systems from a vendor like Dell, we still have to see who will try to build  >an enterprise system around it.   Whoever wants to, I guess :)  F (My bet is that it'll initially take off in small systems, as you say,@ and then once it's established people will start using it at theF higher end. Who will be the first to use it in an enterprise system, I have no idea.)  ) >Sun would be the likely victim - if theyr> >weren't so wrapped up in clinging to the rapidly dying Sparc.  F Is Sparc rapidly dying? I got the impression it was holding its marketE niche comfortably enough, and at least not falling any further behindi6 in performance, but I haven't seen the latest figures.  B But yes, x86-64 would be a good fallback for Sun if Sparc did showB signs of kicking the bucket. AFAIK both Solaris and Sun's businessF model could remain pretty much unchanged in that event; might even get% a boost because they could cut costs.n  ? >>- Does the mindset that says "we don't want to be in the chip G >>business" also extend to "we don't want to be in the operating systemsG >>business"? (Some people, myself included, get the impression it does;dF >>I'll admit I could be wrong.) If it does, what will the consequences$ >>of that be for HP's product lines? >iE >We'll see.  This week starts the HP era for VMS, and we'll find out.t  D Yep! My guess, for what it's worth, is that VMS's status will remainB largely unchanged, for better or worse, in the foreseeable future.   --  3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."h! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallacei mail:rw(at)eircom(dot)net    ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:25:18 -0400+ From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com>u  Subject: RE: Revisionist historyT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1F0F@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  H >>> why do you expect people to trade in fast machines for a slower one?? (Again, this is a serious question; I'm genuinely curious about 	 this.)>>>    In most cases they will not.=20   C However, while current releases of the IA-64 may be lacking in some G area's, it remains to be seen if that will still be the case when lateraE IPF systems (especially in 2004/2005+ timeframe) become available.=20t  D Remember that when the Alpha was first introduced, the initial AlphaF systems were slower than some of the big VAX systems. It was only overG time when newer Alpha systems began to rapidly pull away from those bigo VAX systems performance.   Regards,  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantf Compaq Canada Corp.n Professional Servicesh Voice: 613-592-4660t Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@Compaq.com     -----Original Message-----2 From: Russell Wallace [mailto:spam@devnull.com]=20 Sent: May 6, 2002 10:01 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt  Subject: Re: Revisionist history    3 On Mon, 06 May 2002 13:34:37 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge"-$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  $ >Russell Wallace wrote in message=20( ><3cd64d58.338443807@news.eircom.net>... >>H >>Why do you think customers will pay large sums of money to switch to a  E >>chip that's slower than what they have already? (Serious question.): >  >Anyone running a Sparc ;-)p   *grin*  C But if people wouldn't trade in their Sparcs for fast machines likeAG Alpha and POWER, why do you expect them to trade in for a slow machine?   1 >It *isn't* slower than what the vast majority ofrJ >customers are currently running, it's just not faster than a number of=20 >HPS CPU's.f  H It's also not faster than the Pentium boxes people are buying their kidsF to play Quake on. In fact, last I checked Sparc is the _only_ thing itH beats on speed. Are you expecting Sun's customers to defect to IA-64 forD performance reasons? If so, why wouldn't they defect to, say, POWER4G which offers much better performance? Otherwise my question stands: whyeH do you expect people to trade in fast machines for a slower one? (Again,> this is a serious question; I'm genuinely curious about this.)   --=20s3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent.".; http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace mail:rw(at)eircom(dot)nett   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:32:07 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk  Subject: Re: Revisionist history* Message-ID: <ab6457$63$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>  c In article <sO4LYaxWpAW3@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: M >In article <ab5o36$ono$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:oO >> I would suggest that we have proof that is not the case since there are VAX n& >> simulators on 80x86 eg Charon VAX   >eH >   Turing showed that this is always possible.  However emulating a VAXD >   on a system with (for example) no mempoy protection would not beG >   anywhere near the same as porting VMS to such a machine.  The first G >   may be doable, but excruciatingly slow.  The latter would result inn$ >   something that just waasn't VMS. >i  F Of course this is true. But my understanding is that Charon Vax is NOT excruciatingly slow.    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  " Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:53:46 GMT- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>s  Subject: Re: Revisionist historyD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.30.0205061052060.10913-100000@world.std.com>  ' On Sun, 5 May 2002, David Froble wrote:.  D > > "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message >rF > >>The decision was made to not stay in the CPU development business. >I >lQ > Now this is a statement that cannot be argued with.  Many have seen through all P > the BS, and plainly Compaq didn't want to be in the CPU business, even if they7 > had and would continue to have the best in the world.i >c  4 Yeah, they made that pretty evident on June 25 2001.   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:50:46 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk  Subject: Re: Revisionist history* Message-ID: <ab6586$u4$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>  q In article <NDvB8.17$765.340088@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:c >RI >Russell Wallace wrote in message <3cd64d58.338443807@news.eircom.net>...p5 >>On Sun, 05 May 2002 20:48:08 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge"9& >><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: >>8 >>>"Russell Wallace" <spam@devnull.com> wrote in message >>>> >>H >>Why do you think customers will pay large sums of money to switch to aE >>chip that's slower than what they have already? (Serious question.)c >> >tM >Anyone running a Sparc ;-)  It *isn't* slower than what the vast majority ofnK >customers are currently running, it's just not faster than a number of HPSt >CPU's.  > H The difference is as always the applications. Sparc has tons and tons of> applications. IA32 has tons and tons and tons of applications.D Hammer (and almost certainly  YAMHILL as well ) has almost no 64bit J applications but will run the tons and tons and tons of IA32 applications  as well as IA32 runs them.K IA64 has almost NO applications worth running. It has pretty much no 64bit  N applications and although it will run the tons and tons and tons of IA32 apps N it will run them so poorly that you would be an idiot to buy it in preference & to an IA32 or Hammer chip to run them.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 15:09:22 +0000 (UTC) From: david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk  Subject: Re: Revisionist history+ Message-ID: <ab66b2$18c$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>i  q In article <OmwB8.22$g75.400550@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: I >Russell Wallace wrote in message <3cd68b82.354360014@news.eircom.net>...l5 >>On Mon, 06 May 2002 13:34:37 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge"u& >><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: >>K >>>Russell Wallace wrote in message <3cd64d58.338443807@news.eircom.net>...  >>>>J >>>>Why do you think customers will pay large sums of money to switch to a >eL >Define "slow".  It's "slower" than Alpha and Power, but it isn't "slow".  ID >don't expect to see VMS users trading in their Alpha's for a while.  I Agreed about VMS users not trading in their Alphas but not about IA64 noti being slow.      >A3 >>>It *isn't* slower than what the vast majority ofeM >>>customers are currently running, it's just not faster than a number of HPS.	 >>>CPU's.o  O It's slower than pretty much everything but SPARC. Or do you just mean that theyN vast number of customers aren't running the latest generation of their current CPU architectures ?  ,   >>E >>It's also not faster than the Pentium boxes people are buying their D >>kids to play Quake on. In fact, last I checked Sparc is the _only_F >>thing it beats on speed. Are you expecting Sun's customers to defectG >>to IA-64 for performance reasons? If so, why wouldn't they defect to,t@ >>say, POWER4 which offers much better performance? Otherwise myE >>question stands: why do you expect people to trade in fast machinestE >>for a slower one? (Again, this is a serious question; I'm genuinelye >>curious about this.) >> >tI >Pentium boxes for low CPU counts are faster, and more cost effective (at- >least just on purchase price).4 > J >When you go out to buy a car, is it's top speed, or it's 0-60 performanceI >the only qualification?  If that was everyone's criteria, most car linestL >would go out of business.  We'd all be driving Corvette's, Z8's, Ferrari's,M >etc.  You probably buy a system based on it being able to run what you need,eJ >perform at a level which meets (or exceeds) your needs, and which has the? >lowest price -- of course, that ignores "loyalty" to a vendor.a >yJ >If IA64 has the software you need, be it VMS, HP-UX, or Windows - and theK >related 3rd party software.  Has the performance you need, and has a lower I >price than the competition - then it would seem to me to be a reasonableb >choice to consider. >o  M Lots of IFs there. It certainly won't have the IA32 windows apps performance.vB Will have as you admit above lower performance than Alpha for VMS.G And I have yet to see any argument which explains why IA64 will ever beB
 a cheap chip.f    
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:42:53 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>l  Subject: Re: Revisionist history9 Message-ID: <NDwB8.25$o75.406659@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>   H Russell Wallace wrote in message <3cd68e65.355099164@news.eircom.net>...4 >On Mon, 06 May 2002 13:32:36 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge"% ><kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:  >hH >>It's an interesting bet, but 1) I'm not sure I would take it, or agree thatL >>IA64 has "failed".  The only thing that can be said is that the first IA64G >>chip was only bought by-and-large by people engaged in porting to thel >>architecture.  >s4 >Mmm, I think some other things can be said as well: >o@ >- IA64 was supposed to offer superior performance; in its firstE >incarnation at least, it has ended up offering inferior performance. F >(With a high price tag and severe heat dissipation problems to boot.) >i  J I'm not sure what Intel claimed for it.  Until the last half year or so, IG didn't really care ;-).  It's performance may not be at Power4 or AlphasK levels, but I would predict that it will be cheaper, and not so much slower F that the absolute performance will matter as long as it has good price( performance and scales to large systems.  A >- Current forecasts (at least the ones I've seen) for the second E >incarnation suggest it too will be inferior in performance to prettym >much everything except Sparc. >h  L Pretty much everything in the 64bit space means Alpha and Power4.  We'll see= just how AMD does in large SMP's (if anyone ever builds one).i  G >- Since the reason why we should incur the high cost of switching to a F >new chip architecture rather than just 64-bit-izing the familiar x86,E >was supposed to be performance, "failure" strikes me as a reasonablee
 >word to use.- >-  J Yup.  It's supposed to be able to scale.  And that, only time will tell if@ Intel can drive it's performance.  I'm gonna guess that it will.  - >>The real test will be the next year or two.c >o? >True; if McKinley surprises us all and jumps to the top of then> >performance league, IA64 might still be in with a chance. I'm/ >skeptical about this happening, but we'll see.  >    I don't think it will beat EV7.<  
 >>2) It's not7, >>really clear that x84-64 really will scale >u >Why wouldn't it?r >s  F Because it's design (today at least) is only for small scale SMP.  Has1 anyone actually seen and measured a 8-way Hammer?S  E >Why is it clearer that IA64 will scale? (It's facing the problems of G >lower per-chip performance and greater heat dissipation to start with; C >those are the main differences that I'm aware of in this context.)A >a" >>or who will be embracing it as aJ >>systems vendor.  While it would not suprise me to see it appear in smallG >>systems from a vendor like Dell, we still have to see who will try tol buildn! >>an enterprise system around it.e >f >Whoever wants to, I guess :)n >f  + OK.  Who?  HP?  IBM?  Sun?  Gateway?  Dell?t  L I can see Gateway or Dell using it as a IA32 replacement if it's performanceE and cost are right.  Who is lining up to build a 8-way server for it?   G >(My bet is that it'll initially take off in small systems, as you say,OA >and then once it's established people will start using it at the G >higher end. Who will be the first to use it in an enterprise system, I  >have no idea.)  >a   Neither does anyone else.e  * >>Sun would be the likely victim - if they? >>weren't so wrapped up in clinging to the rapidly dying Sparc.s >uG >Is Sparc rapidly dying? I got the impression it was holding its market,F >niche comfortably enough, and at least not falling any further behind7 >in performance, but I haven't seen the latest figures.W >   K Well, dunno.  Sun's financials since the .com collapse, and Sept 11'th haveaE been on a downward spiral.  Sparc itself is old, slow, and has littlee prospects of getting better.  C >But yes, x86-64 would be a good fallback for Sun if Sparc did showaC >signs of kicking the bucket. AFAIK both Solaris and Sun's businessiG >model could remain pretty much unchanged in that event; might even gete& >a boost because they could cut costs. >i  L Tell Andrew ;-).  BTW - I agree.  Sun should abandon Sparc, and embrace IA32L and "something" else.  But while hammer has 8-way SMP as a design, when willI there be something to scale large enough to replace it's large SMP boxes?   ? >>>- Does the mindset that says "we don't want to be in the chi6H >>>business" also extend to "we don't want to be in the operating systemH >>>business"? (Some people, myself included, get the impression it does;G >>>I'll admit I could be wrong.) If it does, what will the consequences % >>>of that be for HP's product lines?e >>F >>We'll see.  This week starts the HP era for VMS, and we'll find out. >sE >Yep! My guess, for what it's worth, is that VMS's status will remainaC >largely unchanged, for better or worse, in the foreseeable future.f >o  H Well, the old girl may still have some life in her.  If we can teach herI some new tricks over the next few years, perhaps things may even get mucho better.n   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:29:35 GMTy( From: spam@devnull.com (Russell Wallace)  Subject: Re: Revisionist history0 Message-ID: <3cd6a0fe.359861724@news.eircom.net>  3 On Mon, 06 May 2002 14:24:46 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge"t$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:   >Define "slow".o  = Slower than everything else on the market except maybe Sparc.e  I >Pentium boxes for low CPU counts are faster, and more cost effective (ate >least just on purchase price).h   Yep.  J >If IA64 has the software you need, be it VMS, HP-UX, or Windows - and theK >related 3rd party software.  Has the performance you need, and has a lowerhI >price than the competition - then it would seem to me to be a reasonablee >choice to consider.  F But IA64 has less software than anything else on the market, and lowerA performance, and is more expensive. So it strikes me as being then  least likely choice to consider.   -- e3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."l! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace  mail:rw(at)eircom(dot)nets   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:41:49 GMTn( From: spam@devnull.com (Russell Wallace)  Subject: Re: Revisionist history0 Message-ID: <3cd6a222.360153179@news.eircom.net>  3 On Mon, 06 May 2002 14:42:53 GMT, "Fred Kleinsorge",$ <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:   [about IA64]  K >I'm not sure what Intel claimed for it.  Until the last half year or so, Is >didn't really care ;-).  B *grin* I cared, because the original idea was that we'd end up allF having a nice clean, top-performing architecture on our desktops. It'sB a pity that doesn't seem likely to happen. At least Hammer fixes a? couple of the more problematic aspects of the x86 architecture.K  / >It's performance may not be at Power4 or Alphan4 >levels, but I would predict that it will be cheaper   Why would you predict that?c   >and not so much slowersG >that the absolute performance will matter as long as it has good priceo) >performance and scales to large systems.e  E But if the per-chip speed is low, then you need to use more of them -sC and CPU count makes a huge difference to the cost of large systems.e  K >Yup.  It's supposed to be able to scale.  And that, only time will tell ifhA >Intel can drive it's performance.  I'm gonna guess that it will.t    Why are you going to guess that?  @ >>True; if McKinley surprises us all and jumps to the top of the? >>performance league, IA64 might still be in with a chance. I'm.0 >>skeptical about this happening, but we'll see. >r  >I don't think it will beat EV7.   I don't either.e   >>>2) It's not- >>>really clear that x84-64 really will scale@ >> >>Why wouldn't it? >RG >Because it's design (today at least) is only for small scale SMP.  Has@2 >anyone actually seen and measured a 8-way Hammer?  F The initial target market is certainly for small scale. But what aboutE the _chip_ design precludes people using it to build large _systems_?a  M >Tell Andrew ;-).  BTW - I agree.  Sun should abandon Sparc, and embrace IA32kM >and "something" else.  But while hammer has 8-way SMP as a design, when will J >there be something to scale large enough to replace it's large SMP boxes?  @ What's the problem with building a 64-way SMP out of Hammers? OfE course the on-chip glue logic won't do the job, you'd have to providelC that as extra - but then, most SMP boxes people have built over the @ years have had to provide the glue logic as extra; why is that a problem?  F >>Yep! My guess, for what it's worth, is that VMS's status will remainD >>largely unchanged, for better or worse, in the foreseeable future. >e4 >Well, the old girl may still have some life in her.  E I'd say so; VMS works well for its market niche, and there are enough:E customers who want to stay with what works that I don't see VMS goingl< away in the near future unless Fiorina goes completely nuts.   -- w3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."n! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallaceo mail:rw(at)eircom(dot)net    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:47:12 GMT ( From: spam@devnull.com (Russell Wallace)  Subject: Re: Revisionist history0 Message-ID: <3cd6a468.360735062@news.eircom.net>  0 On Mon, 6 May 2002 10:25:18 -0400, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> wrote:  D >However, while current releases of the IA-64 may be lacking in someH >area's, it remains to be seen if that will still be the case when laterF >IPF systems (especially in 2004/2005+ timeframe) become available.=20  D It's certainly true that if Intel keep pouring money into it, a 2005' IA64 will be faster than the 2002 ones.'  ? But the same is true of the competition. Is there any reason to F suppose the 2005 IA64 will look any better relative to its competition. at that time, than the 2002 ones do right now?  D (I can think of at least one reason to suppose it will actually lookF worse: heat dissipation is becoming a more and more important limiting; factor as the years go by, and as I understand it, the IA64e? architecture inherently tends to generate more heat for a given-) process technology than its competition.)4  E >Remember that when the Alpha was first introduced, the initial AlphaiG >systems were slower than some of the big VAX systems. It was only overLH >time when newer Alpha systems began to rapidly pull away from those big >VAX systems performance.5  = Would that still have been true if a competitor had continued>- aggressively developing the VAX architecture?   F (It would probably have been at least partly true, since the Alpha hadB much less crud than the VAX. IA64, however, has more crud than its
 competition.)a   --  3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent." ! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallacen mail:rw(at)eircom(dot)neth   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 11:03:24 -0500l+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)   Subject: Re: Revisionist history3 Message-ID: <sSb9D8jHHE9I@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  [ In article <3cd6a468.360735062@news.eircom.net>, spam@devnull.com (Russell Wallace) writes:-2 > On Mon, 6 May 2002 10:25:18 -0400, "Main, Kerry"  > <Kerry.Main@Compaq.com> wrote: > E >>However, while current releases of the IA-64 may be lacking in somenI >>area's, it remains to be seen if that will still be the case when later G >>IPF systems (especially in 2004/2005+ timeframe) become available.=20m > F > It's certainly true that if Intel keep pouring money into it, a 2005) > IA64 will be faster than the 2002 ones.  > A > But the same is true of the competition. Is there any reason tohH > suppose the 2005 IA64 will look any better relative to its competition0 > at that time, than the 2002 ones do right now? >   = 	Yes.  Economies of scale which will help Intel stay on front. 	on the process side.-  > 	Since IA64 will be able to be made in the same foundries thatB 	are making IA32, it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume IA64 won'tC 	lag more than a process generation behind IA32.  That is one majora? 	bonus.  The second major bonus is the horrific cost to stay oncF 	the bleeding edge.  While IBM is successful in almost everything theyE 	do, they took a hit in storage and cpus at last financial statement.s< 	Never to be idle, IBM tossed their storage over the wall toB 	Hitachi.  So IBM is left with one "loss leader" in CPUs.  We will> 	see how long even the mighty IBM hangs onto CPU manufacturingE 	when the cost of a fab starts hitting $5-$10 billion U.S. and above.   : 	IBM certainly doesn't have the volumes... sound familiar?   				Rob    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 16:36:44 GMT ( From: spam@devnull.com (Russell Wallace)  Subject: Re: Revisionist history0 Message-ID: <3cd6b0d4.363916311@news.eircom.net>  C On 6 May 2002 11:03:24 -0500, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)y wrote:  	 >	We willa? >	see how long even the mighty IBM hangs onto CPU manufacturingnF >	when the cost of a fab starts hitting $5-$10 billion U.S. and above.  B Why can't they just outsource the manufacturing (while keeping the+ design in-house) if this becomes a problem?t   --  3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."o! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallacee mail:rw(at)eircom(dot)netm   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 12:21:21 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>& Subject: Sayonara DS10, new org chartsA Message-ID: <5zuB8.81058$Ii2.7134587@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>t   Inquiring minds want to know:$  ' http://www.theinquirer.net/06050204.htm2  K So much for 'affordable' VMS, at least unless Intel is paying people to usecF Itanics come 2003 - 4.  Not that many familiar names on the org chartsG either:  Rick Marcello continues soldiering on with his dead horse, anduH reading between the lines Stallard's memo doesn't seem to give the AlphaL server group a very central role going forward.  Tandem at least still seems
 to be Tandem.a   - bill   ------------------------------  " Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:58:52 GMT- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>p* Subject: Re: Sayonara DS10, new org chartsD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.30.0205061056010.10913-100000@world.std.com>  $ On Mon, 6 May 2002, Bill Todd wrote:   > Inquiring minds want to know:t >e) > http://www.theinquirer.net/06050204.htmt >rM > So much for 'affordable' VMS, at least unless Intel is paying people to usehH > Itanics come 2003 - 4.  Not that many familiar names on the org chartsI > either:  Rick Marcello continues soldiering on with his dead horse, andPJ > reading between the lines Stallard's memo doesn't seem to give the AlphaN > server group a very central role going forward.  Tandem at least still seems > to be Tandem.h  J Yep, Tandem will remain Tandem, so to speak. It appears that HPQ will pushF Alpha in HPTC accounts, but don't expect much in the way of new marketE development in other existing Alpha niches. The idea *seems* to be toaB deliver on the previously-committed (post June 25, not beforehand)C roadmap and ease the transition to IPF at some point in the future.u   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 08:01:16 -0500 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r! Subject: Re: SMTP Usage Filter...t3 Message-ID: <Srn4qbYd2lgx@eisner.encompasserve.org>m  V In article <3CD304CE.E854D469@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: >  > My Knowledgeable Friends,rQ > In response to an email attack recently (using me as mail bouncer), I set up ani  > smtp.config file and entered :% > 	Reject-Unbacktranslatable-IP: TRUEdP > I now notice far less junk mail and no new attacks. And I'm still getting someS > good mail, but I'm also rejecting about 10-20 emails/hr as "unbacktranslatable". sM > My question is could this setting cause "good" email to be blocked as well? P > Put another way: is there ever a VALID reason why a port 25 request would come@ > from an IP that can't be translated back to its sender domain? >   F    Yes.  A lot of companies don't provide publical DNS names for everyH    address in thier network.  Some of them will funnel or mung all emailF    from and reply-to to a central mail server, others may let the mail    out directly.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 17:46:48 GMT ( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>! Subject: Re: SMTP Usage Filter...d+ Message-ID: <3CD6C1D3.D07F27B9@pacbell.net>e   Rob Young wrote: > X > In article <3CD304CE.E854D469@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: > >i > > My Knowledgeable Friends,0S > > In response to an email attack recently (using me as mail bouncer), I set up ans" > > smtp.config file and entered :, > >       Reject-Unbacktranslatable-IP: TRUER > > I now notice far less junk mail and no new attacks. And I'm still getting someT > > good mail, but I'm also rejecting about 10-20 emails/hr as "unbacktranslatable".O > > My question is could this setting cause "good" email to be blocked as well?eR > > Put another way: is there ever a VALID reason why a port 25 request would comeB > > from an IP that can't be translated back to its sender domain? > >t >  >         Short answer, yes. > C >         The key is to block email that isn't headed to your site.i9 >         The Multinet SMTP_REJECT entry looks like this:4 >  > !sN > ! Disallow relaying through our mailer, and only allow users on our networks/ > ! to claim to be from our company (blech.com)  > ! > > !  Wildcards can be used in FROM_USER, FROM_IP, and TO_USER. > !t4 > !FROM_USER    FROM_IP       TO_USER         ACTION > !i/ > *             *             *blech.com      nf/ > *blech.com    199.99.*      *               n./ > *             199.99.*      *               n O > *@*           *             *@*             q "no relaying through this site"vR > *             *             *@*             y "missing domain name in MAIL FROM" > E >         Note that third entry , the ACTION is "q".  Quietly reject.  > H >         So weasels that are attempting to relay through your site willK >         hit that rule.  Elsewise, it will be bound for your site, Rule 1.y1 >         Or coming from your site, Rule 2 and 3.e > G >         I stuck a box out a few days ago.  Because it is out there astG >         SMTP.companyname.domain  weasels look for that.  I don't havenI >         nearly the issue with another box that allows incoming SMTP butlI >         isn't advertised.  Here is clear spammer activity, and not they7L >         both can be back translated.  How do I know attempting spam?  I amP >         blocking all incoming SMTP, never did allow incoming SMTP.  Just using >         it for outbound. > V > 4-MAY-2002 20:22:57 SMTP (rejected) from [64.4.19.245,3315] (f245.law12.hotmail.com)Y > 4-MAY-2002 20:23:41 SMTP (rejected) from [216.136.172.234,2962] (qmail2.bulk.yahoo.com)tW > 4-MAY-2002 20:37:57 SMTP (rejected) from [64.4.19.245,1766]  (f245.law12.hotmail.com)e > H >         Many more entries all the time... less than 10 minutes after I >         turned it on in fact.v > K >         But worse than spammers, are weasels using your site to send spamy6 >         to the world (again, stop that with Rule 3). > % >                                 Robe  J Thanks for that, but I need to accept incoming SMTP and I use Compaq TCPIPK Services. I'll try to match your Mulinet suggestions to my smtp.cong rules. N I think the answer for me is there is no EASY way to block all spammers. I mayM just to adjust the Good-Clients/Bad Clients list on an on-going basis - yuck!W   --     Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San Francisco    ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 12:54:35 -0500-+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) ! Subject: Re: SMTP Usage Filter...I3 Message-ID: <I7ilAk$YLR75@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  V In article <3CD6C1D3.D07F27B9@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes: >  >  > Rob Young wrote: >> eY >> In article <3CD304CE.E854D469@pacbell.net>, Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net> writes:e >> > >> > My Knowledgeable Friends,T >> > In response to an email attack recently (using me as mail bouncer), I set up an# >> > smtp.config file and entered : - >> >       Reject-Unbacktranslatable-IP: TRUEhS >> > I now notice far less junk mail and no new attacks. And I'm still getting somehU >> > good mail, but I'm also rejecting about 10-20 emails/hr as "unbacktranslatable".lP >> > My question is could this setting cause "good" email to be blocked as well?S >> > Put another way: is there ever a VALID reason why a port 25 request would comeiC >> > from an IP that can't be translated back to its sender domain?e >> > >> e >>         Short answer, yes.e >> hD >>         The key is to block email that isn't headed to your site.: >>         The Multinet SMTP_REJECT entry looks like this: >> i >> !O >> ! Disallow relaying through our mailer, and only allow users on our networksn0 >> ! to claim to be from our company (blech.com) >> !? >> !  Wildcards can be used in FROM_USER, FROM_IP, and TO_USER.  >> !5 >> !FROM_USER    FROM_IP       TO_USER         ACTION  >> !0 >> *             *             *blech.com      n0 >> *blech.com    199.99.*      *               n0 >> *             199.99.*      *               nP >> *@*           *             *@*             q "no relaying through this site"S >> *             *             *@*             y "missing domain name in MAIL FROM"  >>  F >>         Note that third entry , the ACTION is "q".  Quietly reject. >> -I >>         So weasels that are attempting to relay through your site willTL >>         hit that rule.  Elsewise, it will be bound for your site, Rule 1.2 >>         Or coming from your site, Rule 2 and 3. >> eH >>         I stuck a box out a few days ago.  Because it is out there asH >>         SMTP.companyname.domain  weasels look for that.  I don't haveJ >>         nearly the issue with another box that allows incoming SMTP butJ >>         isn't advertised.  Here is clear spammer activity, and not theyM >>         both can be back translated.  How do I know attempting spam?  I ameQ >>         blocking all incoming SMTP, never did allow incoming SMTP.  Just usingr >>         it for outbound.  >>  W >> 4-MAY-2002 20:22:57 SMTP (rejected) from [64.4.19.245,3315] (f245.law12.hotmail.com)iZ >> 4-MAY-2002 20:23:41 SMTP (rejected) from [216.136.172.234,2962] (qmail2.bulk.yahoo.com)X >> 4-MAY-2002 20:37:57 SMTP (rejected) from [64.4.19.245,1766]  (f245.law12.hotmail.com) >> lI >>         Many more entries all the time... less than 10 minutes after Ia  >>         turned it on in fact. >> nL >>         But worse than spammers, are weasels using your site to send spam7 >>         to the world (again, stop that with Rule 3).d   	Make that Rule 4):t  M *@*           *             *@*             q "no relaying through this site"g   >> e& >>                                 Rob > L > Thanks for that, but I need to accept incoming SMTP and I use Compaq TCPIPM > Services. I'll try to match your Mulinet suggestions to my smtp.cong rules.pP > I think the answer for me is there is no EASY way to block all spammers. I mayO > just to adjust the Good-Clients/Bad Clients list on an on-going basis - yuck!h >   A 	You can't block spammers or you would need to block all incomingtH 	aol.com, hotmail.com, yahoo.com mail and many many more too numerous toF 	mention.  Since a vast number of folks use "free" email services suchG 	as hotmail and yahoo, you will be getting spam mail.  Recent articles e) 	point out it is only going to get worse.e   				Rob,   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 07:46:41 -0500n- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)gY Subject: Re: The 'tone' of c.o.v. (was Re: Prediction:  VMS lives, merger or no  merger!)c3 Message-ID: <kVwlT3Qb4GcW@eisner.encompasserve.org>    In article <aau8tn$jlv$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes:D > No but then NetBeans is an IDE and SAP is a ERP package they arn't >  > similar fruit at all. 	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrisona  G    Sure they are, they're apps.  One is the app I need and the other ist    the app you cling to.   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 11:22:40 GMTo From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGl Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <00A0D857.3BA051BD@SendSpamHere.ORG>  g In article <3CD577AD.18FC0B25@compaq.com.doom>, Forrest Kenney <Forrest.Kenney@compaq.com.doom> writes:r ...o  ! >Officially only the embedded USB 1 >controllers on these platforms are supported and H >only for keyboards and mice.  All of the supported code is checked into- >the version that is presently in field test.P    J Will there be LK style keyboards available hanging off of these USB ports? --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             e5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" f   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 08:07:42 -0500i- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)r Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSg3 Message-ID: <GWOyffL$ktLY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   T In article <3cd4796b.5009249@news.atl.bellsouth.net>, statzerj@bellsouth.net writes:G > Are there drivers available to support USB devices under OpenVMS?  MycG > initial web seach was not promising, but I have a USB DSL modem and I-D > have seen it possible to set up Linux to run this modem, but wouldH > like to experiment with VMS as well if my Multia or Alphastation could > handle it.  "    Why don't you write one for us?   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 08:09:59 -0500v- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)l Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSe3 Message-ID: <piUn4OVetfta@eisner.encompasserve.org>l  g In article <3CD577AD.18FC0B25@compaq.com.doom>, Forrest Kenney <Forrest.Kenney@compaq.com.doom> writes:  > 0 >     What is not supported at the present time:  + >               3) Customer written drivers   <    Ouch.  Hopefully I won't need on 'till I get iVMS anyhow.   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 08:11:45 -0500e- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSs3 Message-ID: <6uucwnynhU9X@eisner.encompasserve.org>   P In article <00A0D857.3BA051BD@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >  > L > Will there be LK style keyboards available hanging off of these USB ports?  6    How about a nice two-cylinder VSXXX-AA style mouse?   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:38:41 GMTs5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>n Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSp9 Message-ID: <BHvB8.18$R65.376857@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>s  C Yes.  We are currently having a keyboard vendor build a LK401-style J keyboard, we will be getting the prototypes in the next month or so (thereJ was an obscure chip problem that we found in testing a USB keyboard, whichG delayed things a smidge).  The code is already done for it, we are just- waiting for them to arrive.r    ( system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message' <00A0D857.3BA051BD@SendSpamHere.ORG>...e? >In article <3CD577AD.18FC0B25@compaq.com.doom>, Forrest Kenney ( <Forrest.Kenney@compaq.com.doom> writes: >... > " >>Officially only the embedded USB2 >>controllers on these platforms are supported andI >>only for keyboards and mice.  All of the supported code is checked intoe. >>the version that is presently in field test. >  >0K >Will there be LK style keyboards available hanging off of these USB ports?e >--l3 >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001  VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM > 5 >  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"c >l   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 13:40:05 GMTu5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>A Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMS09 Message-ID: <VIvB8.19$S65.377946@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>   * Eh?  What's a two-cylinder VSXXX-AA mouse?  J The mouse will be a standard 3-button USB mouse.  As an added bonus, I putK support for the thumbwheel in for anyone that wants to plug in a thumbwheelt mouse.    G Bob Koehler wrote in message <6uucwnynhU9X@eisner.encompasserve.org>...mI >In article <00A0D857.3BA051BD@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORGA writes:  >> >>F >> Will there be LK style keyboards available hanging off of these USB ports? >a7 >   How about a nice two-cylinder VSXXX-AA style mouse?  >e   ------------------------------  * Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 07:52:36 -0600 (MDT)" From: John Nebel <nebel@csdco.com> Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSIG Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.4.21.0205060751390.23413-100000@athena.csdco.com>o   Great news!"  
 John Nebel  * On Mon, 6 May 2002, Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  E > Yes.  We are currently having a keyboard vendor build a LK401-stylelL > keyboard, we will be getting the prototypes in the next month or so (thereL > was an obscure chip problem that we found in testing a USB keyboard, whichI > delayed things a smidge).  The code is already done for it, we are justo > waiting for them to arrive.b >    ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:57:56 +0200s) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl>a Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSh/ Message-ID: <3CD68BE4.3090607@xs4all.nospam.nl>c   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:, > Eh?  What's a two-cylinder VSXXX-AA mouse? > L > The mouse will be a standard 3-button USB mouse.  As an added bonus, I putM > support for the thumbwheel in for anyone that wants to plug in a thumbwheel. > mouse.  @ There were two versions of the VS-XXX-AA mouse. One had the the F traditional ball mechanism which we all hate because it collects dirt E and therefore it becomes inaccurate over time. The other version you rH could call "two-cylinder". It had two tilted shafts with a little wheel H each wich did the motion sensing. The only dirt they collected remained 3 on the outside of the mouse and was easily cleaned.e  H I seem to remember that Digital won an Industry Prize with it. Probably A they were so shocked by this prize that they dropped the product.   	 Bart Zorne   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:13:34 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>f Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSl9 Message-ID: <icwB8.20$rZ4.124025@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>-  I Oh.  Yuck.  I hated that mechanism.  I believe that the prize was for thewJ puck shape, don't think it was for the mechanism (I was involved to a veryH small degree with it's creation, and tested it when it was a prototype).J I've yet to find a mouse that was 100% reliable - and I started working onJ them back in the Pro-300 days, when all kinds of different mechamisms wereL tried (like optical mice than needed a special target pad, or mice that onlyE had felt on the bottom, and "listened" to the movement for speed, andi$ measured shear force for direction).  K The current standard of a rubber ball, coupled to optical encoders seems tovJ be as reliable as any of the others I've used, and fairly simple to clean.J No mouse is "accurate" - I think the best description I read was something= to the effect of trying to draw while wearing a boxing glove.   J If you want trouble free accuracy, get a tablet... of course, since almostI nobody bought the last tablet we supported, it's not high on the list forbJ new devices...  but I'm thinking of figuring out how to allow user-writtenG X-Extension devices in the release next year (so you could hack in core % pointer support for j-random tablet).K   _Fred     A Bart Zorn wrote in message <3CD68BE4.3090607@xs4all.nospam.nl>...c >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:t- >> Eh?  What's a two-cylinder VSXXX-AA mouse?  >>I >> The mouse will be a standard 3-button USB mouse.  As an added bonus, Is putaC >> support for the thumbwheel in for anyone that wants to plug in am
 thumbwheel	 >> mouse.r >:@ >There were two versions of the VS-XXX-AA mouse. One had the theF >traditional ball mechanism which we all hate because it collects dirtE >and therefore it becomes inaccurate over time. The other version you H >could call "two-cylinder". It had two tilted shafts with a little wheelH >each wich did the motion sensing. The only dirt they collected remained4 >on the outside of the mouse and was easily cleaned. >tH >I seem to remember that Digital won an Industry Prize with it. ProbablyB >they were so shocked by this prize that they dropped the product. >l
 >Bart Zorn >g   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:11:15 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG- Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMS 0 Message-ID: <00A0D86E.C89BD7F8@SendSpamHere.ORG>  q In article <BHvB8.18$R65.376857@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:oD >Yes.  We are currently having a keyboard vendor build a LK401-styleK >keyboard, we will be getting the prototypes in the next month or so (there K >was an obscure chip problem that we found in testing a USB keyboard, which H >delayed things a smidge).  The code is already done for it, we are just >waiting for them to arrive.  H Excellent.  What about a mouse?  Will I have a regular 3 button mouse or4 one of the new-fangled stupid "Willy-wheel" devices?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            e5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:28:33 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>n Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMS 9 Message-ID: <lqwB8.23$B85.455792@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>   K You guys keep stumping me with technical terms.  What is a Willy -Wheel?  IrG assume this is a dig at Bill Gates, so therefor some strange MS device.c  K The USB architecture *does* have something going for it - written standardsRI for the input data for many HID devices, including mice.  So, pretty much H anything should work.  I believe that we will be shipping a more-or-lessI conventional 3-button mouse.  I have a "classic" Compaq 3-button mouse, a G new carbon-black Compaq 3-button mouse, and a Microsoft 3 button mouse, E where the middle button is a thumbwheel - all work fine.  As does the  thumbwheel.g      ( system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote in message' <00A0D86E.C89BD7F8@SendSpamHere.ORG>...eL >In article <BHvB8.18$R65.376857@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge"% <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: E >>Yes.  We are currently having a keyboard vendor build a LK401-style L >>keyboard, we will be getting the prototypes in the next month or so (thereL >>was an obscure chip problem that we found in testing a USB keyboard, whichI >>delayed things a smidge).  The code is already done for it, we are justt >>waiting for them to arrive.  > I >Excellent.  What about a mouse?  Will I have a regular 3 button mouse or 5 >one of the new-fangled stupid "Willy-wheel" devices?g >a >-- 3 >VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001l VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >g5 >  "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"  >P   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:59:48 GMT25 From: Forrest Kenney <Forrest.Kenney@compaq.com.doom>q Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSA/ Message-ID: <3CD698EF.9C419FDA@compaq.com.doom>,   >   ]     Yes there are plans for an LK style USB keyboard I am waiting for proto-types to show up.a     forrest kenney
 OpenVMS groupa     > L > Will there be LK style keyboards available hanging off of these USB ports? > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM  > 6 >   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 09:56:35 -0700e0 From: Mark Berryman <Mark.Berryman@Mvb.Saic.Com> Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSa, Message-ID: <3CD65353.34FF88AE@Mvb.Saic.Com>  E Mine is a thumbwheel, and I'm looking forward to trying it when I get 6 V7.3-1 (assuming, of course, that it works on a DS10).  
 Mark Berryman-   > Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > , > Eh?  What's a two-cylinder VSXXX-AA mouse? > L > The mouse will be a standard 3-button USB mouse.  As an added bonus, I putM > support for the thumbwheel in for anyone that wants to plug in a thumbwheell > mouse. > I > Bob Koehler wrote in message <6uucwnynhU9X@eisner.encompasserve.org>...IK > >In article <00A0D857.3BA051BD@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG 	 > writes:> > >> > >>H > >> Will there be LK style keyboards available hanging off of these USB > ports? > >u9 > >   How about a nice two-cylinder VSXXX-AA style mouse?> > >    ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 17:07:44 GMTa5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>> Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSc9 Message-ID: <ALyB8.32$e%4.195646@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>M  J Sure.  But there is a litle problem on the DS10.  Aside from some test FW,L there isn't any firmware support for using the USB kb/mouse as the system KB and mouse for booting.  H Now, of course, you can plug the USB mouse into the USB port, modify theI sys$config.dat file to configure the USB port, and then the driver for iteK should load.  Then, I can give you the magic incarnation to tell the server:, to use the USB port instead of the PS2 port.   _Fred,    B Mark Berryman wrote in message <3CD65353.34FF88AE@Mvb.Saic.Com>...F >Mine is a thumbwheel, and I'm looking forward to trying it when I get7 >V7.3-1 (assuming, of course, that it works on a DS10)._ >R >Mark Berryman >> >> Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  >>- >> Eh?  What's a two-cylinder VSXXX-AA mouse?  >>I >> The mouse will be a standard 3-button USB mouse.  As an added bonus, I* put C >> support for the thumbwheel in for anyone that wants to plug in a 
 thumbwheel	 >> mouse.  >>J >> Bob Koehler wrote in message <6uucwnynhU9X@eisner.encompasserve.org>...L >> >In article <00A0D857.3BA051BD@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG
 >> writes: >> >>a >> >>nI >> >> Will there be LK style keyboards available hanging off of these USB 	 >> ports?n >> >: >> >   How about a nice two-cylinder VSXXX-AA style mouse? >> >   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 02 19:24:00 +0200t) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)m Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSa) Message-ID: <PChPMDZJmjKd@elias.decus.ch>u  f In article <3CD57A1E.E6CABC90@firstdbasource.com>, Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> writes: > statzerj@bellsouth.net wrote:t >>   > H > Th good thing about most SOHO routers, is the fact that the router canH > provide very good firewall support - that is, unless you start opening= > specific ports for things like gaming and SMTP/Telnet/FTP. e > G One warning there. As supplied, my ADSL router allowed remote access bySE both TELNET and FTP to the router itself. The easiest way around that4C was to direct those ports at a non-existent LAN address until I had1$ fathomed out which filters to apply. > E > I will be leaving shortly to go get on a plane and hope to have theeG > requested DSL/Cable config done shortly..  I will do some of it on mysG > Handspring (Palm) PDA.  It will give me something to do on the plane.h >  I look forward to seeing that. __
 Paul Sture Switzerland    ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 17:33:09 -0000 4 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSS5 Message-ID: <20020506173309.3254.qmail@gacracker.org>c  K On Mon, 06 May 2002, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote: L >You guys keep stumping me with technical terms.  What is a Willy -Wheel?  IH >assume this is a dig at Bill Gates, so therefor some strange MS device. >oL >The USB architecture *does* have something going for it - written standardsJ >for the input data for many HID devices, including mice.  So, pretty muchI >anything should work.  I believe that we will be shipping a more-or-lesslJ >conventional 3-button mouse.  I have a "classic" Compaq 3-button mouse, aH >new carbon-black Compaq 3-button mouse, and a Microsoft 3 button mouse,F >where the middle button is a thumbwheel - all work fine.  As does the >thumbwheel.   Picky point No 42...  H Why on Earth do they call it a "thumbwheel" when your thumb goes nowhere near it? :-)     Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.nete   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 08:06:01 -0500n- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 1 Subject: Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New Company 3 Message-ID: <2DaKmADx6nxq@eisner.encompasserve.org>y  h In article <d7791aa1.0205050407.3a794231@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes: > D > and you think unix/linux is any better ... if so, I have a million> > cert advisories to email to you ... sorry, vms stands alone!  C    Carefull, everytime someone mentions cert, it becoes a troll forO
    Andrew.   ------------------------------  " Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:45:57 GMT- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>p1 Subject: Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New CompanyeD Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.30.0205061041370.10913-100000@world.std.com>  " On 5 May 2002, Rick Nickles wrote:  D > I saw the posts about this great new marketing effort of Compaq toE > small businesses - I've seen it too.  Well, a few years ago Digital G > decided that since they were really struggling, that they would focus0F > more of their effort on their largest customers.  They called it the# > 80-20 plan.  Something like that.i    @ Yep, that would have been the 1994(?) move to indirect channels.    & >Most of Compaq still thinks this way.E > I've litterally been told by folks that we weren't worth their timecF > because we don't do enough business with them.  Well, you can marketI > all you want to small businesses, but when they get that when they call ! > Compaq on the phone, no wonder.  >m1 > It's going to take a lot to turn things around.W >d    I DEC never did well in the SMB marketplace. Compaq has made three attempts2I to get its act together, most recently within the past 12 months with theR  "Business Tuesday" etc campaign.  J > Ok, what I want to see is all kinds of positive write ups and ads in all: > the trade rags and all the major publications about VMS.  4 Sad but true, I've pretty much cornered that market.     I want to openM > up Info World or Information Week and see full page ads, and great articles I > about VMS.  Yea, we've seen a few - but we need to see LOTS of them out: > there.    G That requires proactive, aggressive marketing, leveraging contacts withME the trade press, and convincing the writers to write something. Which<H requires a "news hook" (eg why write about the OS). It can IMHO be done," but thus far it has not been done.   ------------------------------  " Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 14:49:29 GMT- From: Terry C Shannon <shannon@world.std.com>-1 Subject: Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New Company D Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.4.30.0205061046380.10913-100000@world.std.com>    On 5 May 2002, Doc.Cypher wrote:  A > On 5 May 2002, chinachowchow@mailcity.com (Rick Nickles) wrote:yE > >I saw the posts about this great new marketing effort of Compaq tot' > >small businesses - I've seen it too.s >t' > S'cuse me, what new marketing effort?  >nL > Apart from the personal visits to large customers to try and convince themK > all is well, the only marketing going on seems to be that of people here.SJ > Either doing things like providing free access to increase knowledge andK > exposure, or gratuitously crossposting to other newsgroups to remind them@ > VMS lives.  C The "new marketing effort" targets the SMB marketplace, which isn't  exactly a VMS stronghold.o   <snip> >nK > Indeed it is. There are a lot of "details" that need attended to, but the ? > big issue is exposure. VMS simply isn't getting enough of it.L >t  F I don't think any of the denizens of comp.os.vms would argue with thatI observation. Perhaps some good will come of the May 7 acquisition-related  org chart shuffle...   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 02 19:19:53 +0200-) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)r7 Subject: Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New CompanySELECTj) Message-ID: <XK4sy6+MWbWY@elias.decus.ch>8  v In article <20020505174722.19999.qmail@gacracker.org>, Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes:   [snip for brevity]   > K > From posts here it seems that companies like IBM don't just target peoplenM > in the IT department. They target their bosses, and their bosses bosses. ItnJ > works. Corporate policy doesn't get decided in the IT department, you'veI > got to make the boardroom aware of VMS. That means hitting publications F > such as the WSJ. Promote cluster uptimes, lack of security breaches,M > immunity to virii. The average board member isn't an IT guru, but they know K > that when their computers are offline they're losing money. Make it clearj. > to them that it doesn't have to be that way. > F I can confirm that from my own experience more than 20 years ago. TheyG sent in a Sales Director type to talk to our Sales Director, a ManagingeF Director type  to talk to our MD, a Financial Director type to talk toF our FD. Not only did they do that with the Board, but the rest of userI management, right down through the levels. As System Manager I had my ownhK SYSMGR equivalent as a contact. It was _very_ impressive. The real clincher G was that they could show us other users running similar operations, anda running them reliably and well.t  I >>I don't know about anybody else, but I've spent most of my life working3 >>with VMS.  It's a big deal.l > K > Indeed it is. There are a lot of "details" that need attended to, but the ? > big issue is exposure. VMS simply isn't getting enough of it.u >II Also a big deal here. I have seriously tried other stuff and have come upuH against brick walls in terms of getting the budget to buy in third partyK add ons which bring other solutions up to the level of what comes with VMS.s __
 Paul Sture Switzerlandm   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:21:51 GMTr3 From: "Arie de Groot" <arie.degroot@softresint.com>h Subject: Re: VMS SCAN producth; Message-ID: <3kwB8.481169$Fw2.12033500@nlnews00.chello.com>o  L More information about the VAXscan on Alpha (AlphaScan) can be found on this0 webpage: http://www.softresint.com/AlphaScan.htm  
 Best regards,h  
 Arie de Grooto# Software Resources International SA- arie.degroot@softresint.com, www.softresint.com  < "Hunter Goatley" <goathunter@goatley.com> schreef in bericht* news:3cd14f8c.80770611@news.process.com...9 > On Thu, 02 May 2002 18:34:27 +0400, "Ruslan R. Laishev" # > <laishev@smtp.deltatel.ru> wrote:a >h > > >   VAX SCAN is dead.s > >> > > >>G > >>    Is dead does not necessarily mean should be dead.  Kudos to the  folkse2 > >>    who are trying to come up with Alpha SCAN.< > > They have tried to port SCAN to Alpha ?! Any reference ? >nI > In another thread on comp.os.vms with subject "ALPHASCAN," someone from K > SRI (the CHARON-VAX people) posted saying that they're working on porting  > it from VAX to Alpha.t >  > Hunter > ------; > Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/n: > goathunter@goatley.com    http://www.goatley.com/hunter/> > New Robert R. McCammon site: http://www.RobertRMcCammon.com/   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 09:52:30 -0500t- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)e Subject: Re: VMS SCAN product 3 Message-ID: <EXmfbSFTogZf@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  q In article <3kwB8.481169$Fw2.12033500@nlnews00.chello.com>, "Arie de Groot" <arie.degroot@softresint.com> writes:sN > More information about the VAXscan on Alpha (AlphaScan) can be found on this2 > webpage: http://www.softresint.com/AlphaScan.htm  D Given the warning about the debugger, I suppose this mainly would be+ good for programs that already work on VAX.3   But can you elaborate on:   : 	"The AlphaScan development environment differs in details< 	 from the VAX Scan environment, in which means that in case@ 	 of migration from a VAX platform the current SCAN applications9 	 development processes might require minor adjustments."e   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:26:30 GMT 3 From: "Arie de Groot" <arie.degroot@softresint.com>  Subject: Re: VMS SCAN producte; Message-ID: <GgxB8.481814$Fw2.12048017@nlnews00.chello.com>u  J VAX and Alpha platforms are different. This may (with the emphasis on may)C cause minor differences during execution of the results produced by K AlphaScan, even while it looks exactly like the output of the VAXScan. ThistJ is due to HW-architecture and not the SCAN-process. If such a thing occursH it may be desirable to alter the code earlier in the process to make theK VAXScan and AlphaScan results exactly the same. It is not likely to happen,n7 but not impossible, that is why we included this remark    Regards,  
 Arie de Grootr# Software Resources International SA6 arie.degroot@softresint.com  www.softresint.com  < "Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> schreef in bericht- news:EXmfbSFTogZf@eisner.encompasserve.org...yF > In article <3kwB8.481169$Fw2.12033500@nlnews00.chello.com>, "Arie de, Groot" <arie.degroot@softresint.com> writes:K > > More information about the VAXscan on Alpha (AlphaScan) can be found one this4 > > webpage: http://www.softresint.com/AlphaScan.htm >xF > Given the warning about the debugger, I suppose this mainly would be- > good for programs that already work on VAX.i >? > But can you elaborate on:e >f; > "The AlphaScan development environment differs in details < > from the VAX Scan environment, in which means that in case@ > of migration from a VAX platform the current SCAN applications9 > development processes might require minor adjustments."c   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 08:43:23 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  Subject: RE: VMS SCAN products9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEKGEOAA.tom@kednos.com>l  ? If all you are doing is providing a mechanism to take exisitinge@ SCAN code from the VAX and move to Alpha then I think the manner@ in which the translation is done is adequate.  However, it is of@ marginal value if you wish to write or maintain code, unless, of% course,  you also provide a debugger.    >-----Original Message-----t9 >From: Arie de Groot [mailto:arie.degroot@softresint.com] # >Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 8:27 AM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com >Subject: Re: VMS SCAN product >h >wK >VAX and Alpha platforms are different. This may (with the emphasis on may)nD >cause minor differences during execution of the results produced byL >AlphaScan, even while it looks exactly like the output of the VAXScan. ThisK >is due to HW-architecture and not the SCAN-process. If such a thing occurswI >it may be desirable to alter the code earlier in the process to make theuL >VAXScan and AlphaScan results exactly the same. It is not likely to happen,8 >but not impossible, that is why we included this remark > 	 >Regards,o >h >Arie de Groot$ >Software Resources International SA >arie.degroot@softresint.com >www.softresint.comh >e= >"Larry Kilgallen" <Kilgallen@SpamCop.net> schreef in berichte. >news:EXmfbSFTogZf@eisner.encompasserve.org...G >> In article <3kwB8.481169$Fw2.12033500@nlnews00.chello.com>, "Arie dei- >Groot" <arie.degroot@softresint.com> writes:aL >> > More information about the VAXscan on Alpha (AlphaScan) can be found on >thiso5 >> > webpage: http://www.softresint.com/AlphaScan.htmE >>G >> Given the warning about the debugger, I suppose this mainly would be . >> good for programs that already work on VAX. >> >> But can you elaborate on: >>< >> "The AlphaScan development environment differs in details= >> from the VAX Scan environment, in which means that in casefA >> of migration from a VAX platform the current SCAN applicationsl: >> development processes might require minor adjustments." >- >- >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).jA >Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/19/2002o >  ---e& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/19/2002   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 07:52:45 -0500 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)dA Subject: Re: Was OpenVMS V7.3 ever released for the VAX platform?a3 Message-ID: <G7i5qkcFXC7S@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  _ In article <3cd2cff1_2@news.tiscalinet.ch>, "Giorgio Ungarelli" <giorgio@ungarelli.net> writes:S > Hi,H > K > I thought that the last version of OpenVMS released by Compaq for the VAX N > platform was V7.2 and all subsequent releases (V7.2-1, V7.3, etc) would onlyJ > be for the Alpha platform.  However, I have recently seen pictures of an6 > OpenVMS/VAX V7.3 CD (from Compaq), dated April 2001. > I > Could someone please confirm that OpenVMS V7.3 is available for the VAXc > platform?       I have a copy.  Good enough?q   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 08:10:42 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>a7 Subject: Which newsservers (if any) run under tcpip5.1?n9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEKEEOAA.tom@kednos.com>B  $ Has anybody ported INN, for example? ---f& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/19/2002   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 14:14:38 GMTC From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG., Subject: WIS??? Did it die with the HP deal?0 Message-ID: <00A0D86F.422C593B@SendSpamHere.ORG>  J I've been trying to check on issues I've reported via WIS.  However, thereJ doesn't seem to be a WIS since the start of the weekend.  Is this just the* beginning of things to come under HP rule?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMl            m5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 2002 09:46:55 -05003- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)O0 Subject: Re: WIS??? Did it die with the HP deal?3 Message-ID: <i3iLKgBf$BxX@eisner.encompasserve.org>S  P In article <00A0D86F.422C593B@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:L > I've been trying to check on issues I've reported via WIS.  However, thereL > doesn't seem to be a WIS since the start of the weekend.  Is this just the, > beginning of things to come under HP rule?  
 What is WIS ?9   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 15:20:56 GMT: From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGe0 Subject: Re: WIS??? Did it die with the HP deal?0 Message-ID: <00A0D878.84C5DB8F@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <i3iLKgBf$BxX@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:nQ >In article <00A0D86F.422C593B@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:mM >> I've been trying to check on issues I've reported via WIS.  However, theredM >> doesn't seem to be a WIS since the start of the weekend.  Is this just thea- >> beginning of things to come under HP rule?l >  >What is WIS ?  J C'mon Larry, get with the times... Web Information and Support.  In simple# terms, it is an HTTP based DSNlink.s   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMf            i5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" -   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 11:33:12 -0400-& From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@rcn.com>0 Subject: Re: WIS??? Did it die with the HP deal?< Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020506113238.03d4d340@pop.rcn.com>  : At 02:14 PM 5/6/2002 +0000, system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:K >I've been trying to check on issues I've reported via WIS.  However, there K >doesn't seem to be a WIS since the start of the weekend.  Is this just thee+ >beginning of things to come under HP rule?i  4 I just checked ... it seems to be functioning now...   Ken Robinson   ------------------------------  # Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 16:54:01 GMTp From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGo0 Subject: Re: WIS??? Did it die with the HP deal?0 Message-ID: <00A0D885.85FB98CA@SendSpamHere.ORG>  e In article <5.1.0.14.2.20020506113238.03d4d340@pop.rcn.com>, Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@rcn.com> writes:s; >At 02:14 PM 5/6/2002 +0000, system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: L >>I've been trying to check on issues I've reported via WIS.  However, thereL >>doesn't seem to be a WIS since the start of the weekend.  Is this just the, >>beginning of things to come under HP rule? >v5 >I just checked ... it seems to be functioning now...e > 
 >Ken Robinson0 >0  8 Yeap.  I was just about to followup my post to say that.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMs             5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" .   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 09:39:27 +0200% From: "Fred Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@KVI.nl>a Subject: Re: X-Win32. Message-ID: <ab5bvf$2qo$1@info.service.rug.nl>  ) <valdemir-@uol.com.br> wrote in message = . news:200205051818.PAA09670@wilde.uol.com.br... Hello VMS gurus:  ?  In my job we are using X-Win32 to connect in our Sun machines,o=  and I=B4d like know if I can use X-win32 to connect with ourr@  VAXes machines. Reading X-win32 help I didn=B4t find references  about VMS systems.   Thanks in advance...k  ) Yes it works. We use it here quite a lot.e   ------------------------------   Date: 6 May 02 19:34:02 +0200n) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) 8 Subject: Re: ZIPped .PCSI container arrives OK on VMS???) Message-ID: <qGdY749r7yKa@elias.decus.ch>i  G In article <3CD61A33.2070809@home.nl>, Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> writes:t > Paul Sture wrote:lZ >> In article <3CD30061.3416057D@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> writes: >>  S >>>Could someone explain to me why a Backup saveset sent via the Internet has to benS >>>reset under VMS (via the reset_backup_saveset_attributes.com procedure availableeR >>>from the VMS freeware CD) and not a .PCSI container zipped on an Alpha, UNZIPed# >>>on my Mac and FTPed to my Alpha?t >>>  >> d >> dO >> Neither UNZIP nor the RUN command (for self-extracting files) appear to care " >> much about the file attributes. > I > If a file has been zipped on VMS, and the VMS qualifier has been used, kI > then you will get the original file attributes when you unzip the file h7 > on VMS. A self-extracting .exe file will do the same.  > E Sorry, I should have said that UNZIP doesn't appear to care about the F file attributes _of the container file_. The same applies to RUNning a self-extracting .exe., >  >> eP >> BACKUP does care. Also note that CHECKSUM givies the wrong answer if the file. >> downloaded is not of the format it expects. >>   >> Paul  >  >  -- n __
 Paul Sture Switzerlands   ------------------------------  $ Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 10:38:36 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 8 Subject: RE: ZIPped .PCSI container arrives OK on VMS???9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEKLEOAA.tom@kednos.com>n  0 The logic in RESET_BACKUP_SAVESET_ATTRIBUTES.COM1 is pretty simple, why not put it in BACKUP itself14 so that it can read savesets that have been modified3 ftp?  I can imagine that this could be an internal i
 ON condition.      >-----Original Message-----s& >From: Dirk Munk [mailto:munk@home.nl]$ >Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 10:53 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com9 >Subject: Re: ZIPped .PCSI container arrives OK on VMS???p >o >  >Paul Sture wrote:: >> In article <3CD30061.3416057D@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi ! ><Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> writes:p >>  A >>>Could someone explain to me why a Backup saveset sent via the e >Internet has to beo@ >>>reset under VMS (via the reset_backup_saveset_attributes.com  >procedure availableD >>>from the VMS freeware CD) and not a .PCSI container zipped on an  >Alpha, UNZIPedo# >>>on my Mac and FTPed to my Alpha?s >>>r >>   >>  A >> Neither UNZIP nor the RUN command (for self-extracting files) r >appear to care'" >> much about the file attributes. > H >If a file has been zipped on VMS, and the VMS qualifier has been used, H >then you will get the original file attributes when you unzip the file 6 >on VMS. A self-extracting .exe file will do the same. >a >2 >> 9> >> BACKUP does care. Also note that CHECKSUM givies the wrong  >answer if the file . >> downloaded is not of the format it expects. >> @ >> Paulu >h >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.k; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).1A >Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/19/2002t >  ---n& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/19/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 07:18:22 -0700t! From: Tom Linden <tom@kednos.com>h% Subject: [TFW]  Installing ODL on W2Ka9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEKAEOAA.tom@kednos.com>b  5 I have ODL for VMS running on a W2K server, and I was 4 going to install ODL for Tru64 on same platform, but* they both have the same name and icon BNU.   What is the trick? ---o& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/19/2002   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.250 ************************