1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 09 May 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 255       Contents:; Re: 2.9-6 (Re: SIMH 2.9-5 - first official VAX release) VMS ) Re: access() check that works with ACLs ? ) Re: access() check that works with ACLs ? & Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue?& Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue?& Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue?& Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue?& Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue?$ Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC$ Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC$ Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC$ Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 RE: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix & Re: capture single keystroke from DCL?: Re: DECUS/EncompassUS Survey -- no longer assuming Windows. DecWindows Login Screen and VXT2000 - Question2 Re: DecWindows Login Screen and VXT2000 - Question- Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning 4 Re: Gartner rides again (was Re: HP Product Roadmap)4 Re: Gartner rides again (was Re: HP Product Roadmap)4 Re: Gartner rides again (was Re: HP Product Roadmap) Re: HP Product Roadmap Re: HP Product Roadmap Re: HP Product Roadmap Re: HP Product Roadmap Re: HP Product Roadmap Re: HP Product Roadmap RE: HP Product Roadmap# Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe # Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe # Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe # Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe # Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe # Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe # Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe  New email address  Re: New email address ? Re: Old RAID 230 logical init very slow (63% done after 5 days) ? Re: Old RAID 230 logical init very slow (63% done after 5 days) 7 Only one brief mention of OpenVMS on the HP whitesheet? ; Re: Only one brief mention of OpenVMS on the HP whitesheet? ? Re: OT: Outlook Web Mail (was Re: CSWS / CSWB / MX Speculation) 
 Powered by HP  Re: Read_verify  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history  Re: Revisionist history 3 Re: Scott Stallard, forget your VMS to HP UX dream! 3 Re: Scott Stallard, forget your VMS to HP UX dream!  Re: simh VAX VMS users?  Re: SMTP Usage Filter... Re: SMTP Usage Filter... Re: SMTP Usage Filter...1 Re: SOT: Yo Andrew, you guys on a roll this week? - SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President? 1 Re: SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President? 1 Re: SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President? 1 Re: SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President? 1 Re: SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President? 1 Re: SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President?  Stallards smoking gun! RE: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Stallards smoking gun! Sun to use AMD chips ... Re: sync time in cluster Re: sync time in cluster Re: sync time in cluster Re: sync time in cluster Re: sync time in cluster RE: sync time in cluster RE: sync time in cluster RE: sync time in cluster RE: sync time in cluster RE: sync time in cluster Re: sync time in cluster Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS( Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New Company
 Re: VMSTAR, What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing?0 Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing?0 Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing?0 Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing?0 Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing?6 Re: Why is security so important in a VMS environment?6 Re: Why is security so important in a VMS environment?6 Re: Why is security so important in a VMS environment?6 Re: Why is security so important in a VMS environment?6 Re: Why is security so important in a VMS environment? Re: X-Win32 / Re: ZIPped .PCSI container arrives OK on VMS???   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 23:46:33 -0400( From: "Mike Foley" <mike-spam@yelof.com>D Subject: Re: 2.9-6 (Re: SIMH 2.9-5 - first official VAX release) VMS/ Message-ID: <udjs8qa1i8g8e2@corp.supernews.com>   4 "Thomas Dzubin" <dzubint@vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message news:3CC699E7.372@vcn.bc.ca... > Wonderful!B > This morning, I booted up NetBSD so I could "dd" the VMS InstallI > CD to a file, rebooted into MS-Windows-98, started a DOS BOX, ran SIMH, H > loaded the file, ran standalone backup to retrieve VMS061.B, installed2 > VMS, loaded License PAKs, and HEY! HEY! HEY! ...& > I'm running VMS 6.1 under MSWindoze!  F     Two questions: I'm trying to do the same thing. Unfortunately, the NetBSDI     installation proceedure uses the VT100 character set (or Ncurses?) to  display E     the install program. Of course, Windows 2000 Command Prompt can't K     deal with that and leaves me with a "dirty" screen. I noticed there's a 8  "   set vt" command but in 2.9-9, it's not enabled yet.       Any thoughts?   6     Also, how did you configure your cdrom in Windows?     att rq2 Z:\        ??       thanks,      mikeL                                                 looking forward to a real OS again...   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 22:04:27 +0200 2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)2 Subject: Re: access() check that works with ACLs ?; Message-ID: <3cd984cb.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>    - (cbdeja@my-deja.com) wrote: C > I need to check whether a file is readable or executable and have F > previously used the access() system call - it works fine in OpenVMS. > G > However, ACLs have now been introduced on our system and world access H > to some files has been removed, with only ACL entries granting access. > E > It seems that access() does not check the ACL entries because it is ? > returning a status which says these files are not readable or ; > executable. There is also something to this effect in the G > documentation, but the documentation does not say how I CAN perform a C > check for read/execute file access which takes ACLs into account.  > 4 > Does anyone knows how this can be done in OpenVMS?  A For my port of ht://Dig I implemented a vms_access() routine that A does check ACLs (using SYS$CHECK_ACCESS mainly). I'll send it via  email.   cu,    Martin --  F                           | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmer3  Cetero censeo            | work: mv@pdv-systeme.de F  Redmondem delendam esse. |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/:                           | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 22:33:00 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)2 Subject: Re: access() check that works with ACLs ?* Message-ID: <abc92s$hcj$2@web1.cup.hp.com>  \ In article <611952a3.0205080627.36d01705@posting.google.com>, cbdeja@my-deja.com (-) writes:B :I need to check whether a file is readable or executable and haveE :previously used the access() system call - it works fine in OpenVMS.  : F :However, ACLs have now been introduced on our system and world accessG :to some files has been removed, with only ACL entries granting access.  : D :It seems that access() does not check the ACL entries because it is> :returning a status which says these files are not readable or: :executable. There is also something to this effect in theF :documentation, but the documentation does not say how I CAN perform aB :check for read/execute file access which takes ACLs into account. : 3 :Does anyone knows how this can be done in OpenVMS?   H   The normal solution is to attempt the access, and capture the failure.  H   Pre-emptive checks are usually a waste of time and programming effort,F   since the file system will repeat the check and since you still wantH   to capture errors should the protections change between the protection   check and the file access.  J   The UNIX file protection mechanisms do not map directly onto the OpenVMSI   mechanisms, and direct use of $chkpro (for direct file access checks -- G   can I get at...) and $check_access (for third-party checks -- can the H   specified user get at...) system services are the approach(es) that I    would tend to recommend.  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 17:55:00 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>/ Subject: Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue? @ Message-ID: <UDdC8.52953$M7.5825950@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message! news:3CD95A77.EA29A20A@Free.fr...  > JF Mezei wrote:  > > I > > When you invest the kind of money that HP wants for VMS systems (this  big high@ > > performance systems)), you want a vendor that you can trust. > J > No. You want a vendor who writes down a commitment on the life period of the H > product in years, so that you can answer the following question: "when should I< > worry about migrating from VMS to another HW/SW platform".  I Oh, you mean like the 'letter of commitment' (from two senior Compaq VPs, I posted prominently on Compaq's Web site) that committed Alpha development J right through EV10?  If you'll believe *any* 'commitment' after that (saveD for one written into a contract with appropriate penalty clauses for) non-performance), you're really an idiot.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 17:59:20 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>/ Subject: Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue? @ Message-ID: <YHdC8.52991$M7.5828885@bin7.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message! news:3CD95CD0.3D7ED5BD@Free.fr...  > Bill Todd wrote:   ...   8 > >> You cannot say that as VMS/ia64 does not exist yet.H > > Wrong.  It's a statement about the current situation, and it's true. > L > No. The original post is saying that VMS/ia64 is less sold that VMS/Alpha. ThisF > statement is wrong as there is no such product VMS/ia64 today (well, afaik)  E Wrong again.  The statement to which you responded (by your choice of J placement) was in the present tense.  If you meant to respond to something else, you failed to.   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 13:03:08 -0500 - From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) / Subject: Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue? 3 Message-ID: <TqdxAKRgIjOR@eisner.encompasserve.org>   W In article <3CD95AED.D79A4147@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> writes: P > I was not clear. The problem is not to migrate to Itanium during the life timeL > of VMS/Alpha, it is to migrate OR NOT to Itanium when the Alpha SUPPORT is > phased out by HP.   / You mean like when VAX support was phased out ?    What year was that again ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 20:54:18 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> / Subject: Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue? ' Message-ID: <3CD9745A.62976E91@Free.fr>    Bill Todd wrote: >  ../.. 7 > If you'll believe *any* 'commitment' after that (save F > for one written into a contract with appropriate penalty clauses for+ > non-performance), you're really an idiot.   K Fortunately, Bill, I know you (via your posts) since ages, so I do not feel W offended. We are here all aware of the fact that you do not know what you are saying...    :-)    D.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 20:54:58 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> / Subject: Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue? ' Message-ID: <3CD97482.97532A64@Free.fr>    Hmmm... after Y2K, anyway.   D.   Larry Kilgallen wrote: > Y > In article <3CD95AED.D79A4147@Free.fr>, Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> writes: R > > I was not clear. The problem is not to migrate to Itanium during the life timeN > > of VMS/Alpha, it is to migrate OR NOT to Itanium when the Alpha SUPPORT is > > phased out by HP.  > 1 > You mean like when VAX support was phased out ?  >  > What year was that again ?    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:05:21 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>- Subject: Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC B Message-ID: <BNdC8.108338$Ii2.9712565@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  : "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message! news:3CD962A4.B7251AD3@Free.fr...  > Atlant Schmidt wrote:  > > H > >     http://www.sba.oakland.edu/ispso/html/2000Symposium/Hunt2000.htm >  > ../.. H > After almost thirty years at the helm of Digital, in the face of large	 financial H > loses in a company used to showing consistent profitability, the Board fired + > Olsen and put in his place Robert Palmer.  > ../..  > L > Ken has been fired because he didn't want to "go UNIX" and he also did not wantJ > to produce low quality (and less expensive) PCs. His spirit was "We will sellL > Rainbows because they are the best PCs in the world" and this was true but not I > enough. The Rainbow has been the Rolls-Royce of the PCs but it was just  too C > complete and too expensive. This is to me why it failed to market 
 (remember the K > article "There is no more gold at the end of the Rainbow"). The PC350/380  has H > been a second try, but as it was not as good as the Rainbow, it failed too.4 > There may be other reasons but I do not know them.  L You don't seem to know much about what you were talking about above, either.- This has not been a good day for you, Didier.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 14:08:35 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>- Subject: Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC . Message-ID: <3CD969A3.C5FEDF3E@mindspring.com>   Didier Morandi wrote:   A > During a visit to the Mill,  I went to see KO's car park place. B > I did find an anonymous delimited area but no label of any sort.  <   Ken's spot was on the corner of building 10 and was marked  "Company Vehicle".    Atlant   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 12:16:21 -0700 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)- Subject: Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205081116.2f45354e@posting.google.com>   h Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<3CD91F88.E7F08549@mindspring.com>...  : exactly what I have been saying for years ... Palmer was a8 Gates crony, paid off by Bill and Intel to give them all6 the little Alpha - VMS secrets while slowly destroying: Digital ... this just confirms it ... and the next Palmer,9 Scott Stallard at hp is starting this again with a vms to 6 hp ux affinity program ... read the pdf at the openvms6 website, the Q/A for vms at the bottom ... that pretty much sums it up ...   8 http://www.compaq.com/hps/download/5_6_hp_newsletter.pdf   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 15:14:21 -0700 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)- Subject: Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205081414.442abad9@posting.google.com>   t "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message news:<BNdC8.108338$Ii2.9712565@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>...< > "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message# > news:3CD962A4.B7251AD3@Free.fr...  > > Atlant Schmidt wrote:  > > > J > > >     http://www.sba.oakland.edu/ispso/html/2000Symposium/Hunt2000.htm > > 	 > > ../.. J > > After almost thirty years at the helm of Digital, in the face of large >  financialJ > > loses in a company used to showing consistent profitability, the Board >  fired- > > Olsen and put in his place Robert Palmer. 	 > > ../..  > > N > > Ken has been fired because he didn't want to "go UNIX" and he also did not >  want5L > > to produce low quality (and less expensive) PCs. His spirit was "We will >  sellcN > > Rainbows because they are the best PCs in the world" and this was true but >  notK > > enough. The Rainbow has been the Rolls-Royce of the PCs but it was just  >  tooE > > complete and too expensive. This is to me why it failed to market  >  (remember theM > > article "There is no more gold at the end of the Rainbow"). The PC350/380d >  hasJ > > been a second try, but as it was not as good as the Rainbow, it failed >  too. 6 > > There may be other reasons but I do not know them. > N > You don't seem to know much about what you were talking about above, either./ > This has not been a good day for you, Didier.l >  > - bill  ? why don't you call him an imbicile or an idioit like you do me?aA at least my belief that EV8 will live in itanium is debatable ...,   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 11:41:07 -0700E( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205081041.10ba6c3d@posting.google.com>r  ^ mnahkola@aurinko.ntc.nokia.com wrote in message news:<sQ3C8.3959$ws6.82089@news2.nokia.com>... > H > And note that this is often correctly perceived as the biggest problemG > for Linux at the moment. Oh well... the differences are still smallerX= > than between different proprietary UNIXes (and lookalikes).s  ; you better look at your linux logs again, because on top ofe= clustering, reliability, compatability, is "S E C U R I T Y"!g? Unix/Linux has none!  VMS clustering, security, reliability and:< scalibility has not been copied by Gates (Cutler) to NT, and; sure hasn't in unix/linux ... any other platform other thanP? OpenVMS is a joke ... it's GARBAGE!  VMS has been thru 22 years > of battles and no other OS comes close ... maybe in another 22< years you will get your act together, but in the mean time I? have a business to keep up 99.9999 and that sure isn't going toe< happen w/windoze/unix/linux!  Unix/linux is just as hardware> dependent as VMS ... so why risk your business and go thru the@ nightmares that all the windoze/unix/linux dumbos are going thru; rught now?  Check the cert site or other comp.os boards andy> wonder in amazement how stupid everyone is for ever running on  these mickey mouse platforms ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 20:07:00 +0100a& From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix* Message-ID: <3CD97754.54D6B3B0@kgcc.co.uk>   Bob Ceculski wrote:m  ` > mnahkola@aurinko.ntc.nokia.com wrote in message news:<sQ3C8.3959$ws6.82089@news2.nokia.com>... > >.J > > And note that this is often correctly perceived as the biggest problemI > > for Linux at the moment. Oh well... the differences are still smallert? > > than between different proprietary UNIXes (and lookalikes).f > = > you better look at your linux logs again, because on top off? > clustering, reliability, compatability, is "S E C U R I T Y"!PA > Unix/Linux has none!  VMS clustering, security, reliability andl> > scalibility has not been copied by Gates (Cutler) to NT, and= > sure hasn't in unix/linux ... any other platform other thanuA > OpenVMS is a joke ... it's GARBAGE!  VMS has been thru 22 yearst@ > of battles and no other OS comes close ... maybe in another 22> > years you will get your act together, but in the mean time IA > have a business to keep up 99.9999 and that sure isn't going to > > happen w/windoze/unix/linux!  Unix/linux is just as hardware@ > dependent as VMS ... so why risk your business and go thru theB > nightmares that all the windoze/unix/linux dumbos are going thru= > rught now?  Check the cert site or other comp.os boards andw@ > wonder in amazement how stupid everyone is for ever running on" > these mickey mouse platforms ...  ; Look if you want to post childish flame bait please keep its@ to your own newgroup and don't cross post it to comp.sys.hp.hpux@ I'm sure after so many years there must be a vms advocacy group.   ------------------------------  " Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 19:27:56 GMT2 From: Robert Gilster <robert.l.gilster@boeing.com>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix* Message-ID: <3CD97C3C.7296687F@boeing.com>   Bob Ceculski wrote:- > ` > mnahkola@aurinko.ntc.nokia.com wrote in message news:<sQ3C8.3959$ws6.82089@news2.nokia.com>... > >jJ > > And note that this is often correctly perceived as the biggest problemI > > for Linux at the moment. Oh well... the differences are still smallera? > > than between different proprietary UNIXes (and lookalikes).  > = > you better look at your linux logs again, because on top of ? > clustering, reliability, compatability, is "S E C U R I T Y"!aA > Unix/Linux has none!  VMS clustering, security, reliability and6> > scalibility has not been copied by Gates (Cutler) to NT, and= > sure hasn't in unix/linux ... any other platform other than:A > OpenVMS is a joke ... it's GARBAGE!  VMS has been thru 22 yearsn@ > of battles and no other OS comes close ... maybe in another 22> > years you will get your act together, but in the mean time IA > have a business to keep up 99.9999 and that sure isn't going toy> > happen w/windoze/unix/linux!  Unix/linux is just as hardware@ > dependent as VMS ... so why risk your business and go thru theB > nightmares that all the windoze/unix/linux dumbos are going thru= > rught now?  Check the cert site or other comp.os boards and @ > wonder in amazement how stupid everyone is for ever running on" > these mickey mouse platforms ...  F Maybe if Digital didn't charge an arm and a leg for VMS way back when,? schools would have been content to use it.  Maybe if VMS wasn't F protected so tightly by Digital way back when, schools could have usedD it as a teaching tool.  As it is, UNIX stepped in as a good teachingD tool, is flexible, and at least in the past, didn't require specificH hardware.  Since Digital was so possessive, nobody learned it, so nobodyE can administrate it, so nobody uses it.  Yes its secure, yes its rockeG solid, yes its a very, very, very good OS - but I hate using it becausenD I don't know it very well.  Windows and UNIX are popular because wayG back when people learned how to use them, then they told their friends, ! who told their friends, who .....m  E The only thing that Digital was guilty of, in my mind, is poor public G relations.  This is a low blow, but consider the average age of the VMScG administrator vs. the average age of the UNIX/Windows administrator - IeC would image that VMS is leading by about 15 years, i.e. fresh bloodI3 isn't pouring into the adminstration resource pool.    --   All these opinions are mine, e and are not necessarily shared r by The Boeing Company.   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 06:53:46 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> < Subject: RE: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' UnixT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF401AB1F1A@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  # Re: Linus and Linux kernel mod's ..   ? Well, if the following articles are correct, while many may not E necessarily like the idea of one person at the healm, Linus does havem control of the kernel changes-  6 http://news.com.com/2100-1001-826093.html Jan 30, 2002) "Torvalds, developers at odds over Linux"   B http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/24245.html (April 28, 2002)G "Open source guru Eric Raymond says Linux kernel patching is in crisis, B and he has renewed calls for someone to assist Linus Torvalds as a 'penguin patch lieutenant'.c  D Speaking at a lecture organised by the UK Unix Users Group in LondonH last night, Raymond said that kernel patching was the one remaining part- of centralisation in open source development.C  G He said Linus has "reached his stress limit" and that no one person canoA deal with the number of kernel patches coming forward from kernel = maintainers. Patches, many of which would help in the furtheraD development of Linux, are being dropped without good reason, Raymond
 observed."   Regardsh  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantc Global Servicest HP Canada Ltd. Voice: 613-592-4660t Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@HP.com     -----Original Message-----0 From: Peter da Silva [mailto:peter@abbnm.com]=20 Sent: May 7, 2002 10:11 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com < Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix    G In article <ab704u$92n$2@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>,  <david20@alpha1.mdx.ac.uk>a wrote:H > Are you sure I thought Redhat , Suse etc added their own installations  J > routines, public domain applications etc but I thought the Kernel was=20G > pretty strictly controlled. Linus doesn't want Linux to split into=20c3 > umpteem thousands of incompatible Linux variants.i  E Linus controls the "standard" kernels pretty tightly, but I can't seeiH how he can prevent people from shipping modified kernels without keepingE them from adding their own bugfixes. If he was doing that, then you'dcH see lots of little "patchkit" fixes being distributed along, the way youB did with 386BSD when Jolitz was in charge, or the way you get with qmail.  A It can't be that Linus and his minions are so fast at integrating.F changes that nobody ever needs to do this. First, it would be insanelyG difficult for them to integrate every possible kernel tweak that anyoneuG might need into the kernel... second, the behaviour of Linux users whens2 a new release is coming up suggests otherwise. :->   --=20yE I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over D the roofs of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate.  AllD these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain. `-_-'WD Time for your nap.  | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag? 'U`b   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 15:20:52 -0500n- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)-< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix3 Message-ID: <Hj3O$2iJC81o@eisner.encompasserve.org>2  a In article <20020508160416.4d076561.hoendech@ecc.lu>, Stefaan A Eeckels <hoendech@ecc.lu> writes:  > On 8 May 2002 07:40:35 -05000 > koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote: > J >> In article <20020507160322.1bbf5726.hoendech@ecc.lu>, Stefaan A Eeckels >> <hoendech@ecc.lu> writes: >> > Y> >> > Nonsense. He could have chosen to ignore the custom tools? >> > and edit the configuration files. That's exactly the point @ >> > with an open system like Unix: you can get it from a number@ >> > of vendors, and the core technology is the same. Hence, the: >> > disappearance of a vendor (or his desire to bleed you@ >> > financially) isn't an insurmountable problem. The fact that7 >> > there are minor differences is wholly irrelevant. l >> >   >> dJ >>    Some Linux use BSD-style text configuration files that can be editedI >>    by hand.  Other's seem to use SVID-style binary configuration filesa+ >>    that can't readily be edited by hand.T > = > There are no binary configuration files in System V derived4 > systems.        BZZZT.  HP-UX.  You loose.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 22:07:02 +0100 & From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix* Message-ID: <3CD99376.3528FE86@kgcc.co.uk>   Bob Koehler wrote:   >  > >t? > > There are no binary configuration files in System V derived  > > systems. >2 >    BZZZT.  HP-UX.  You loose.n  = Who ever said HP-UX was System V derived, it's SVID compliants  but thats not the same thing :-)  D It also has very few binary config files, the printer ones mentionedC earlier, and the lvmtab file are the only ones that spring to mind.rA LVM comes from IBM, via OSF 1, and is quite definitely not SYS V.e   Cheers   Ken    ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 00:16:31 +0200) From: Stefaan A Eeckels <hoendech@ecc.lu>t< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix5 Message-ID: <20020509001631.42734cd5.hoendech@ecc.lu>    On 8 May 2002 14:25:03 GMT$ damercer@mmm.com (Dan Mercer) wrote:  7 > In article <20020508160416.4d076561.hoendech@ecc.lu>,s- > Stefaan A Eeckels <hoendech@ecc.lu> writes:   ? > > There are no binary configuration files in System V derivede
 > > systems. 4 > C > Although this is largely true,  it is not completely true.  While H > the BSD printing system (LPR) is entirely based on ASCII config files,I > regrettably the SysV system (LPD) is not.  This makes it very difficult 2 > to work with or to duplicate to a mirror server.  > Did you check this? The configuration files are under /etc/lp,C and they're all text files. Admittedly, one wouldn't edit Solaris's 8 filter.table for fun, but that doesn't make it a binary.: AIX has a "digested" version of /etc/qconfig aptly called : /etc/qconfig.bin, and that's indeed a pain, but then ACHES: is a pain generally. This is not a feature of LPD, but an 8 implemetation issue - and in addition, AIX isn't a SysV  derivative./  < I don't consider /usr/lib/lp the configuration files of LPD.   --   Stefaan  -- tJ Microsoft treats IT managers the way Proctor & Gamble treats nine-year-oldH prospective consumers: lots of noise, bright colors, and jumping around.= Other software vendors just wish they could be so successful. . 				         -- Cameron Laird in comp.lang.tcl   ------------------------------  $ Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 00:24:26 +0200) From: Stefaan A Eeckels <hoendech@ecc.lu> < Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix5 Message-ID: <20020509002426.02805fec.hoendech@ecc.lu>e   On 8 May 2002 15:20:52 -0500. koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  I > In article <20020508160416.4d076561.hoendech@ecc.lu>, Stefaan A Eeckelsm > <hoendech@ecc.lu> writes:i? > > There are no binary configuration files in System V derivedn
 > > systems. h >  >    BZZZT.  HP-UX.  You loose.a  @ HP-UX only has some sideways influences from SysV (via UnixWare,= around HP-UX 10.0, 1994). Its real ancestry is 4.2BSD. Thankss for playing.   -- f Stefaani --  J Microsoft treats IT managers the way Proctor & Gamble treats nine-year-oldH prospective consumers: lots of noise, bright colors, and jumping around.= Other software vendors just wish they could be so successful.E. 				         -- Cameron Laird in comp.lang.tcl   ------------------------------   Date: 9 May 2002 00:15:15 GMT & From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix- Message-ID: <abcf2j$st3@web.eng.baileynm.com>l  = In article <d7791aa1.0205081041.10ba6c3d@posting.google.com>,0) Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote:oA > OpenVMS is a joke ... it's GARBAGE!  VMS has been thru 22 yearse( > of battles and no other OS comes close  H Um, Bob, UNIX has been around longer than VMS. So, for that matter, haveB just about all the *other* enterprise operating systems available.  A And if the Internet was VMS based, we'd be reading all those CERTy: announcements about the latest variant of the WANK worm...   -- iO I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofs O of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate.  AllmL these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain.   `-_-'K Time for your nap.  | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag?    'U`_   ------------------------------   Date: 9 May 2002 00:19:52 GMT2& From: peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva)< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix- Message-ID: <abcfb8$t69@web.eng.baileynm.com>@  3 In article <LFcvM8aLHkw+@eisner.encompasserve.org>,.. Bob Koehler <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote:I >    Some Linux use BSD-style text configuration files that can be editedeH >    by hand.  Other's seem to use SVID-style binary configuration files* >    that can't readily be edited by hand.  F Doesn't really matter. What those tools end up doing are much the sameG things in either case... in fact a great way to learn would be to go ineE to the startup scripts and trace everything through and see where thetK configuration information gets converted to actual changes in system state.   L Once you do that, you can dump all the canned config tools and work directlyH at that level... and at that level it's all shell scripts and plain text9 files no matter how the high level tools put it together.u  H >    How minor the differences are depend on what work you're doing.  AtB >    the end user level all UNIX are pretty much the same.  At theF >    programmer level real differences start to show up.  To the admin) >    every UNIX is dramaticaly different.T  ; Speaking as an admin, I say you're talking out of your hat.d   -- sO I've seen things you people can't imagine. Chimneysweeps on fire over the roofstO of London. I've watched kite-strings glitter in the sun at Hyde Park Gate.  AllmL these things will be lost in time, like chalk-paintings in the rain.   `-_-'K Time for your nap.  | Peter da Silva | Har du kramat din varg, idag?    'U`    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 20:42:09 -0400( From: Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' UnixB Message-ID: <20020508203928.M20469-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>  " On 8 May 2002, Bob Ceculski wrote:  = >             Check the cert site or other comp.os boards andn@ > wonder in amazement how stupid everyone is for ever running on" > these mickey mouse platforms ... >o  C I did check CERT.  You didn't answer my question about why youe not A running Primos, RT-11, RSTS/E or RSX-11.  They all have less CERT B advisories than even VMS. Added all together, those four OSes haveB a grand total of 0.  If your really concerned with security, start migrating today!!m   bill   -- "J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   ------------------------------    Date: 08 May 2002 21:05:53 -0500= From: Mike Coleman <mkc+dated+1023501053.10b8ae@mathdogs.com>e< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix) Message-ID: <874rhi13em.fsf@mathdogs.com>w  * bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:# > ... any other platform other thank% > OpenVMS is a joke ... it's GARBAGE!r  L You sound like I did when I was switching from VMS to Unix.  Of course, that@ was 15 years ago and I got over it in a couple of months...  :-)  K As I recall, our VMS box got cracked several times and had to be taken down-I for several hours a week for "maintenance".  I don't miss it much, excepteL maybe for SHOW PROCESS.  I suspect that you would find that most of what youM like about VMS exists in the Unix/Linux world, plus a whole load of tools youe haven't dreamt of.  L Whether or not you're correct about VMS, you can't really know unless you'veN drunk the alternative Kool Aid.  The best favor you could do yourself would beM to swear off VMS for one year and immerse yourself in the world of another OStK (Linux would be my pick).  Even if it doesn't change your mind, you'll know 0 exactly where and why VMS is better, first hand.   Regards, Mike   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 02:54:16 GMTn* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' UnixA Message-ID: <sxlC8.109304$n7.9912852@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>a  3 "Ken Green" <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> wrote in message $ news:3CD97754.54D6B3B0@kgcc.co.uk...   ...c  = > Look if you want to post childish flame bait please keep it B > to your own newgroup and don't cross post it to comp.sys.hp.hpuxB > I'm sure after so many years there must be a vms advocacy group.   Not that I'm aware of.  K Apologies for Bob the Mouth:  he's an embarrassment in comp.os.vms as well.r: Apparently too stupid know that his brand of 'advocacy' isK counter-productive (and believe me, it's not for lack of having been told).z   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 9 May 2002 01:04:58 GMTr2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)/ Subject: Re: capture single keystroke from DCL?t* Message-ID: <abchvq$laa$2@web1.cup.hp.com>   Mike Scott wrote:t :eM :I've been surfing for two hours now - nuthin.  I would LOVE a way to capture8H :a single keystroke within a DCL script (no other languages/compilers onI :sys).  Obviously, I'm refering to keys other than [ENTER] ;-{).  A bonus 9 :would be the ability to also capture a cursor keystroke. 
 :-with thanksn  B   DCL does not provide support for handling unterminated character0   input strings nor for single-keystroke input.   I   The following can be used an example of reading a single arbitrary key:e  +     http://www.openvms.compaq.com/freeware/h4          freeware50/srh_examples/qio_extended_read.c  D   I have a similar program around -- not on the Freeware -- that canB   read the device response from a terminal-attached printer, using%   the same extended read mechanism.     C   The OpenVMS SMG RTL also has a reasonable mechanism for handling (A   single-character input from within an application program, the o   SMG$READ_KEYSTROKE call.  B   Details on the $qio extended read operation are included in the C   OpenVMS I/O User's Reference Manual.  Details on the SMG call areg   in the SMG manual.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 00:24:19 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>rC Subject: Re: DECUS/EncompassUS Survey -- no longer assuming Windows ) Message-ID: <TkjC8.1503$UV4.61@rwcrnsc54>   : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3CCE0A6E.6E5CEF03@videotron.ca... > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:sH > > There's a Better Answer: requiring the use of a DECUS Membership ID. >nC > If you do that, better make sure that *ALL* your announcements ono
 newsgroupsI > clearly specify that the survey is restricted to USA DECUS (or whatevers ther" > name is this week) members only. >,J > It is very frustrating to be invited to fill out a survey, take the time toF > fill it out, only to be told later that you were not in fact wanted.  K JF, in np way shape or form did we say that the first survey was limited to B Encompass US, Inc. members. If you participated in the survey yourE participation is appreciated and will be aggregated into the results.h  E Speaking of which, the survey will continue through May 10, so if youoE haven't participated and would like to do so, now's your opportunity.lI Participation is now in the neighborhood of 900 respondents, we'd love tos reach the 1K level!e   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:26:20 -0400. From: "Crowley, George M." <gmcrowley@tva.gov>7 Subject: DecWindows Login Screen and VXT2000 - QuestionjK Message-ID: <217D812D39F9D411884700508BCFE560FF2CD8@tvawbnxch1.wbn.tva.gov>0  K We have three VXT2000 terminals and sometimes folks do not log out so theirn sessions are killed with  I the "$stop/id=" command.  This will leave the VXT in a 'limbo' state withlK all the windows closed and a plain background displayed.  Is there a way tok5 direct a DECWINDOWS login screen to these stations?  h  H We have tried a NCP> TRIGGER NODE VXTNAME with limited success, one node> will reboot, but the other two remain in the 'hung' condition.     George Crowley   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 23:05:09 -0400s2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger); Subject: Re: DecWindows Login Screen and VXT2000 - QuestionnK Message-ID: <rdeininger-0805022305090001@1cust119.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>h  
 In articleJ <217D812D39F9D411884700508BCFE560FF2CD8@tvawbnxch1.wbn.tva.gov>, "Crowley,% George M." <gmcrowley@tva.gov> wrote:o  L >We have three VXT2000 terminals and sometimes folks do not log out so their >sessions are killed with J >the "$stop/id=" command.  This will leave the VXT in a 'limbo' state withL >all the windows closed and a plain background displayed.  Is there a way to6 >direct a DECWINDOWS login screen to these stations?   >5I >We have tried a NCP> TRIGGER NODE VXTNAME with limited success, one node ? >will reboot, but the other two remain in the 'hung' condition.e  F If TRIGGER works on one terminal, I'd check firmware levels and set-upH parameters on the other two.  They ought to have the same functionality.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 15:35:55 -0500I- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)a6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning3 Message-ID: <b24Um2bxDw33@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  \ In article <3CD939AE.118E8CFE@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:N >> There isn't any "forced migration" of VMS customers to HP-UX, although if aN >> VMS customer wants to move to a UNIX, we will certainly have tools and help >> for them to move to HP-UX.t >  > "forced" is a relative term. > L > Put all the goodies such as clustering in HP-UX, provide greater breath ofO > applications on HP-UX than on VMS, and price HP-UX to be cheaper than VMS ando > guess what will happen ? .  E    HP has a long, long way to go, to even get compiler or development D    environments on HP-UX that compare to those on VMS.  Not too manyA    years ago on a team of programmers picking a UNIX development e;    platform the very first thing we agreed to was no HP-UX.    ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 15:30:53 -0500 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)i= Subject: Re: Gartner rides again (was Re: HP Product Roadmap)h3 Message-ID: <erZreLdeTvDC@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  W In article <C2256BB3.0057E343.00@jklh22.valmet.com>, norm.raphael@jamesbury.com writes:   N > "I would not have kept OpenVMS," McGuckin said. "To keep investing in VMS toO > bring it to Itanium raises a concern that ISVs (independent software vendors)v( > may not support it (for three years)."  E    Good old Gartner, still trying to kill VMS in three years, as theyh    have for the past 15.  B    Pretty sad when they can't even make it into a self fullfilling    prophecy.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:43:00 -0400d- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>c= Subject: Re: Gartner rides again (was Re: HP Product Roadmap)n, Message-ID: <3CD9A9EE.224E2CCC@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:G >    Good old Gartner, still trying to kill VMS in three years, as theyo >    have for the past 15.   I agree.    K The text from Gartner made Gartner lose credibility. The author should haverK just pointed out to the lack of serious commitment toVMS at a time where ithL needs a boost to go over the transition bump, the project to provide portingK from VMS to HPUX etc as indications that HP is not serious about VMS in the 2 long term and the the slow decline may accelerate.  L Gartner lost a great opportunity to make a very valuable statement about HP,N but they screwed it. It is not Gartner's role to tell HP what it shoudl do, it+ is its role to Analyse what HP plans to do.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 23:03:41 -0400e2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)= Subject: Re: Gartner rides again (was Re: HP Product Roadmap)oK Message-ID: <rdeininger-0805022303410001@1cust119.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   4 In article <C2256BB3.0057E343.00@jklh22.valmet.com>,! norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:s    K >Though there were no real shockers, McGuckin said he was surprised at HP'sgI >decision to continue support of the OpenVMS operating system. OpenVMS, ad Digital,L >leftover, runs on Compaq Alpha servers that HP said it continue to support,E >along with its PA-RISC-based servers, for three years. Then, the two  lines would-, >move to the Itanium Processor Family (IPF).    G McGuckin is not only a weasel, he's a liar as well.  That's nothing new:J from Gartner, who have been caught peddling blatant lies about VMS before.  H HP didn't say support Alpha servers "for three years".  HP said continueF to sell new Alpha servers until at least 2006, and continue to support them until 2011.    H As it is now 2002, I make it 9 years of support.  Where did McGuckin get three years.  A If I had the cycles, I'd make a list of all the times Gartner has H predicted the death of VMS.  HP should have such a list handy to show toB any customer who expresses worry about the latest Gartner hogwash.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 15:19:59 -0500 - From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)g Subject: Re: HP Product Roadmap 3 Message-ID: <xJvDvYdg7lPI@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  \ In article <3CD91DC4.59F1B16F@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  6 > At this point in time, I give VMS as long as Tru-64.  H    Can't fathom that.  The intent to kill Tru-64 was annonced before theH    merger was complete.  The intent to invest in VMS has been made clear	    since.i  B    VMS may never again be as big as you want it to be, but it will%    certainly live longer than Tru-64.r  F    What do you do if you've got Tru-64 on an Alpha today?  Plan to get    off.r  F    What do you do if you've got VMS on an Alpha today?  Wait for cheap    IA-64 based systems.e   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 15:29:05 -0500-- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)y Subject: Re: HP Product Roadmapa3 Message-ID: <ZZoLOGpZpeAn@eisner.encompasserve.org>:  l In article <abbgs6$i0m$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes:F > And just for yukes, I asked Michael Capellas and Peter Blackmore the0 > following question about the roadmap document. > C > Why was OpenVMS mentioned under the UNIX heading and not its own?  >   F    These are PC comanies.  Just like my Windows/IP-network admin, theyE    figure if it isn't WIndows it must be UNIX.  He's got my DECserverv    200 down as running UNIX.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:38:29 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>P Subject: Re: HP Product Roadmapo, Message-ID: <3CD9A8DF.D1C02D9F@videotron.ca>   Bob Koehler wrote:H >    What do you do if you've got Tru-64 on an Alpha today?  Plan to get	 >    off.  > H >    What do you do if you've got VMS on an Alpha today?  Wait for cheap >    IA-64 based systems.r  M At least Tru64 customers have a clearly statement statement of direction. VMS'E customers have a wishy washy statement that only measn that HP is nota6 committed to VMS except to support existing customers.  N The "we'll provide tools to migrate from VMS to HP-UX" is as clear a statementN that VMS is dead as one can make as such an important time, 8 months after VMS8 customers were told to stay put and await the good news.  K Remember that those documents were probably vetted and every word carefully.L chosen.  The message conveyed is exactly how customers are expected to react3 when they read it: start plans to migrate FROM vms.   M VMS is on the exact same path as Tru64.  The port to IA64 is a nice make-work K project funded by Intel, so HP has no reason to cut it. But it doesn't meanG- that HP intends to use or market VMS on IA64.l  C HP had to cut Tru64 "publicly" to show that they were serious abouta$ eliminating duplicate product lines.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 20:11:07 -05005- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: HP Product Roadmapd3 Message-ID: <EDGe+Oi42wTQ@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  c In article <xJvDvYdg7lPI@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:m  H >    What do you do if you've got Tru-64 on an Alpha today?  Plan to get	 >    off.e > H >    What do you do if you've got VMS on an Alpha today?  Wait for cheap >    IA-64 based systems.l  1 Or buy more Alphas when you need more horsepower.h? There is no need to stall (or accelerate) computer purchase for.0 reasons that do not relate to your own business.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 04:11:49 +0200f& From: Bob Marcan <bob.marcan@aster.si> Subject: Re: HP Product Roadmap ( Message-ID: <3CD9DAE5.687BC6B5@aster.si>   JF Mezei wrote:a >  > Bob Koehler wrote:J > >    What do you do if you've got Tru-64 on an Alpha today?  Plan to get > >    off.  > >lJ > >    What do you do if you've got VMS on an Alpha today?  Wait for cheap > >    IA-64 based systems.  > O > At least Tru64 customers have a clearly statement statement of direction. VMSeG > customers have a wishy washy statement that only measn that HP is notd8 > committed to VMS except to support existing customers. > P > The "we'll provide tools to migrate from VMS to HP-UX" is as clear a statementP > that VMS is dead as one can make as such an important time, 8 months after VMS: > customers were told to stay put and await the good news. > M > Remember that those documents were probably vetted and every word carefullySN > chosen.  The message conveyed is exactly how customers are expected to react5 > when they read it: start plans to migrate FROM vms.h > O > VMS is on the exact same path as Tru64.  The port to IA64 is a nice make-workxM > project funded by Intel, so HP has no reason to cut it. But it doesn't meany  ' Maybe Intel need it to run the FAB? :-)     / > that HP intends to use or market VMS on IA64.o > E > HP had to cut Tru64 "publicly" to show that they were serious abouty& > eliminating duplicate product lines.   -- Y@  Bob Marcan                           mailto:bob.marcan@aster.si?  Aster                                tel:    +386 (1) 5894-329a?  Nade Ovcakove 1                      fax:    +386 (1) 5894-201a@  1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia                    http://www.aster.si   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 20:23:07 -0700 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>t Subject: Re: HP Product Roadmapo) Message-ID: <3CD9EB9B.3BA764F3@rdrop.com>n   Bob Marcan wrote:y > JF Mezei wrote:#Q > > VMS is on the exact same path as Tru64.  The port to IA64 is a nice make-work1O > > project funded by Intel, so HP has no reason to cut it. But it doesn't meanj > ) > Maybe Intel need it to run the FAB? :-)a  E Ooh- Zing!  Maybe in the future Intel will be happy to advertise thatoD fact, since it'll be running on one of their own chips rather than a competitor's. ;-)t   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 23:59:32 -0400' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>I Subject: RE: HP Product RoadmapsT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D8FD4@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  . >>> Maybe Intel need it to run the FAB? :-)<<<  < As well as a number of other biig CPU chip manufacturers ...   :-)o   Regardsd  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantt HP Global Services HP Canada Ltd. Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----0 From: Bob Marcan [mailto:bob.marcan@aster.si]=20 Sent: May 8, 2002 10:12 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coml Subject: Re: HP Product Roadmapa     JF Mezei wrote:f >=20 > Bob Koehler wrote:F > >    What do you do if you've got Tru-64 on an Alpha today?  Plan to get  > >    off.r > > D > >    What do you do if you've got VMS on an Alpha today?  Wait for cheap- > >    IA-64 based systems.2 >=20C > At least Tru64 customers have a clearly statement statement of=20pJ > direction. VMS customers have a wishy washy statement that only measn=20G > that HP is not committed to VMS except to support existing customers.> >=20I > The "we'll provide tools to migrate from VMS to HP-UX" is as clear a=20 J > statement that VMS is dead as one can make as such an important time,=20J > 8 months after VMS customers were told to stay put and await the good=20 > news.e >=20F > Remember that those documents were probably vetted and every word=20I > carefully chosen.  The message conveyed is exactly how customers are=20nG > expected to react when they read it: start plans to migrate FROM vms.t >=20H > VMS is on the exact same path as Tru64.  The port to IA64 is a nice=20J > make-work project funded by Intel, so HP has no reason to cut it. But=20 > it doesn't meanc  ' Maybe Intel need it to run the FAB? :-)     / > that HP intends to use or market VMS on IA64.o >=20H > HP had to cut Tru64 "publicly" to show that they were serious about=20& > eliminating duplicate product lines.   --=20s@  Bob Marcan                           mailto:bob.marcan@aster.si?  Aster                                tel:    +386 (1) 5894-329b?  Nade Ovcakove 1                      fax:    +386 (1) 5894-201C@  1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia                    http://www.aster.si   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 11:08:01 -0700e' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>y, Subject: Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe+ Message-ID: <3CD96981.4747DBFE@caltech.edu>o   Phillip Helbig wrote:a   > H > The big question is, what about Itanium servers?  ASSUMING all productE > lines will be consolidated on Itanium in the near future, the above F > makes perfect sense and does not NECESSARILY bode badly for VMS.  ItH > WOULD be silly to sell ALPHA to new customers, only to migrate them to > Itanium later.  . No, actually, it wouldn't be silly at all.  It1 would mean 1 new customer and two hardware sales.M- Not a bad thing for HPQ at the profit marginsS1 they reap on VMS sales.  It would even make sense-3 if they wrote a discount or trade/in allowance into-' the Alpha sale for the Itanium machine.e  9 Look at the alternative - no new customers now, and fewer- VMS/Itanium sales later.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 12:05:19 -0700c( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski), Subject: Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205081105.2b18ff1e@posting.google.com>c  a Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message news:<87wuueitvj.fsf@prep.synonet.com>...e1 > Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> writes:  >  > > A simple question, Bill. > > ) > > Why are you so sure that VMS is dead?  > > Just curious.i >  t > >>G > Decision: HP will continue with the previously published roadmaps forAG > both PA-RISC and AlphaServer systems. HP will continue development of G > the PA-8800 and PA-8900 processors, as well as the EV7 and EV79 Alphae; > processors. The roles of these two families will be quiteo@ > different. The PA-RISC servers will be targeted at the PA-RISCH > installed base and all new business opportunities. AlphaServer systems; > will be primarily focused on the Alpha installed base and.+ > high-performance technical computing.  <<o > E > So *all* the new business will be directed away from VMS and T64 to ) > HPUX and HPPA. Note, they do say 'all'.u >  > This is from) > http://www.theinquirer.net/08050214.htmk > . > Does anyone have the URL for the whitepaper?  = better, here is the pdf were in the vms Q/A they ask if therec8 will be a migration plan form vms to hp ux, and Stallard: answers "Yes, and this is the the best path we believe for< VMS users" ... this is more Palmer DEC NT affinity bull#?&#!# They are lying to us again I think!2< Stallard, if are smart, you will sell VMS after the IPF port: to mentec or someone else, or else you will lose "MASSIVE"% amounts of business, starting w/ours!h  8 http://www.compaq.com/hps/download/5_6_hp_newsletter.pdf   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:10:36 -0400.- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> , Subject: Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe, Message-ID: <3CD9A258.6BDC3FF4@videotron.ca>   Phillip Helbig wrote:,H > The big question is, what about Itanium servers?  ASSUMING all productE > lines will be consolidated on Itanium in the near future, the abovesF > makes perfect sense and does not NECESSARILY bode badly for VMS.  ItH > WOULD be silly to sell ALPHA to new customers, only to migrate them to > Itanium later1  N The big problem with this is that in the context of VMS, you essentially leaveN it alone for about 4 years before you can start to market it on IA64, assumingK IA64 becomes fast enough to be marketed. No VMS marketing for 4 years, at a I time when you need to generate momentum to convince customers and ISVs toVH spend the money and effort to convert, is not a good recipe for success.  M VMS may not be healthy enough to sustain the combination of long term declinenI in active installed base, the forced and unwanted conversion, and lack ofoK exposure/marketing which will give ISVs doubts about the long term value of 4 spending money to continue to port their app to VMS.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:21:33 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>-, Subject: Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe, Message-ID: <3CD9A4E8.42CD0799@videotron.ca>   John Smith wrote:oN > There is no reason for HP not to continue to sell Alpha-based VMS until they > run out of Alpha cpu's.8  N And there was no reason to kill MPE for the very same reason. Yet Carly killed MPE. r  N My feeling is that VMS customers were put on hold for 8 months, told to expectM a clear product roadmap.  Now that the ropadmap has been published, customerseD will remove the "HOLD" and make a decision based on that one liner.   L I fear that the downward trend for VMS will accelerate. And as soon as it isI fast enough, then Carly will have a an easy target to cut costs/eliminate L whenenever her financials won't be as rosy as she promised and she will feelH the need to show Wall Street that she is continuing the consolidation by removing redundant products.    K Hey Bob Ceculsky and Terry Shannon, where is that famous secret letter that ) you said would make everyone very happy ?-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 16:27:21 -0700 & From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com>, Subject: Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe, Message-ID: <3CD9B459.1030308@gregcagle.com>   JF Mezei wrote:a > John Smith wrote:t > N >>There is no reason for HP not to continue to sell Alpha-based VMS until they >>run out of Alpha cpu's.O >  > P > And there was no reason to kill MPE for the very same reason. Yet Carly killed > MPE. S   Carly didn't kill MPE.   -- v
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 03:02:21 +0200h& From: Bob Marcan <bob.marcan@aster.si>, Subject: Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe( Message-ID: <3CD9CA9D.E69817F9@aster.si>   JF Mezei wrote:  >  > John Smith wrote::P > > There is no reason for HP not to continue to sell Alpha-based VMS until they > > run out of Alpha cpu's.u > P > And there was no reason to kill MPE for the very same reason. Yet Carly killed > MPE. > P > My feeling is that VMS customers were put on hold for 8 months, told to expectO > a clear product roadmap.  Now that the ropadmap has been published, customersoE > will remove the "HOLD" and make a decision based on that one liner.S > N > I fear that the downward trend for VMS will accelerate. And as soon as it isK > fast enough, then Carly will have a an easy target to cut costs/eliminateo   Will still be Carly?  N > whenenever her financials won't be as rosy as she promised and she will feelJ > the need to show Wall Street that she is continuing the consolidation by > removing redundant products. > M > Hey Bob Ceculsky and Terry Shannon, where is that famous secret letter that-+ > you said would make everyone very happy ?0   -- r@  Bob Marcan                           mailto:bob.marcan@aster.si?  Aster                                tel:    +386 (1) 5894-329n?  Nade Ovcakove 1                      fax:    +386 (1) 5894-201a@  1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia                    http://www.aster.si   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 21:31:10 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> , Subject: Re: HP Roadmap: OpenVMS, Tru64 safe, Message-ID: <3CD9D15D.AD4808AA@videotron.ca>   Bob Marcan wrote:aP > > I fear that the downward trend for VMS will accelerate. And as soon as it isM > > fast enough, then Carly will have a an easy target to cut costs/eliminate  >  > Will still be Carly?  L Yes.  The board expects a certain amount of difficulties during integration.H So Carly will have the opportunity to inflict that much damage with fullH support, and it will take a fair amount of subsequent damage before they decide to throw her out. i  B Also, remember that as THE female big cheese, there are perhaps PR implications to firing her.c   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 17:05:20 -04003 From: "Susan Skonetski" <Susan.Skonetski@hp.nospam>  Subject: New email address* Message-ID: <abc3pv$i9p$1@web1.cup.hp.com>   Susan.Skonetski@hp.com   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 21:57:01 -04001 From: "Island (hpaq.net)" <dbturner@islandco.com>r Subject: Re: New email address/ Message-ID: <udjlpqh838s6c8@news.supernews.com>r   Congratulations....?!?!?!?!?    < Susan Skonetski <Susan.Skonetski@hp.nospam> wrote in message$ news:abc3pv$i9p$1@web1.cup.hp.com... > Susan.Skonetski@hp.com >  >C   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 20:56:10 GMTm From: danco@pebble.orgH Subject: Re: Old RAID 230 logical init very slow (63% done after 5 days)- Message-ID: <slrnadj4pr.eur.danco@pebble.org>   = In article <3CD90DB2.3020007@rtfmcsi.com>, Chuck Chopp wrote:   G > so you'd be all set to go if you just download the current firmware, oH > install it and then use the current RCU tools to configure your drive  > groups & logical drives.  H Chuck, is a JBOD configuration still restricted to only 8 disks with the latest array manager software?   - DanH   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 21:16:30 -0400 * From: Chuck Chopp <ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com>H Subject: Re: Old RAID 230 logical init very slow (63% done after 5 days)( Message-ID: <3CD9CDEE.70703@rtfmcsi.com>   danco@pebble.org wrote:l  ? > In article <3CD90DB2.3020007@rtfmcsi.com>, Chuck Chopp wrote:e >  > G >>so you'd be all set to go if you just download the current firmware,  H >>install it and then use the current RCU tools to configure your drive  >>groups & logical drives. >> > J > Chuck, is a JBOD configuration still restricted to only 8 disks with the  > latest array manager software? >  > - DanM >     I The docs still indicate that there is a maximum of 8 logical drives, so,  I I would have to say that the answer is "yes".  Since the purpose of this  G RAID controller is primarily to present RAID protected logical drives,  C it makes sense that it allows significantly more disk drives to be  I connected than can be individually present to the host system as logical mB drives.  I would hazard to guess that the designers of this board G intended a minimum of 3 disk drives per volume group, with each volume eD group completely presented as a logical drive.  My guess about this G comes from the fact that the controller has 3 individual SCSI channels aB on it and the best way to spread the I/O load around is to have a G logical drive on a volume group that is composed of 3 physical drives.  G Given that you can only install 6 drives per bus using narrow SCSI and yH dual power supplies [but you can chain shelves together if you use wide I SCSI shelves & drives to get more drives per buss] and you have 3 buses, 6H this gives 18 drives.  Admittedly, RAID 1 logical drives would probably I only have 2 drives in the volume group, but then again you could go with  I 3 drives per volume group and not hurt anything.  Having RAID 0 and RAID mH 5 sets with 3 to 6 drives per set is also reasonable, but no matter how H you slice & dice it you would still not need more than 8 logical drives  to be presented to the host.  A I would hazard to guess that if there is room for it in both the t= firmware for the controller and for a coresponding change in eE DRDRIVER.SYS, then perhaps LUNs could be implemented to present many -I more logical drives to the host system within the range of logical drive yG SCSI IDs that are available.  However, this controller appears to be a sH legacy product with no new development being done for it, so I wouldn't ; expect such an enhancement to ever actually be implemented.t     -- e Chuck Choppo  8 ChuckChopp@rtfmcsi.com            http://www.rtfmcsi.com1                                    ICQ # 22321532.@ RTFM Consulting Services Inc.     864 801 2795 voice & voicemail2 103 Autumn Hill Road              864 801 2774 fax4 Greer, SC  29651                  800 774 0718 pager8                                    8007740718@skytel.com   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 17:04:58 -0700t, From: schizam2001@yahoo.com (Joe  the Aroma)@ Subject: Only one brief mention of OpenVMS on the HP whitesheet?= Message-ID: <2021ed07.0205081604.2159d59d@posting.google.com>n  	 Grrrr....    ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 20:42:28 -07006 From: "Howard Taylor" <Howard.Taylor@pacificcoast.net>D Subject: Re: Only one brief mention of OpenVMS on the HP whitesheet?  Message-ID: <3cd9eefa$1@nubby2.>  8 "Joe the Aroma" <schizam2001@yahoo.com> wrote in message7 news:2021ed07.0205081604.2159d59d@posting.google.com...t > Grrrr....w  % And under the heading "Unix", too ...n  L Well, Joe, if you liked that mention of VMS, you will love this mention from9 the OpenVMS Q&A section of the HP Tru64 and OpenVMS Timese8 http://www.compaq.com/hps/download/5_6_hp_newsletter.pdf  , Q: Will you offer a migration path to HP-UX?H A: Yes. We believe HP-UX on Itanium is an excellent long-term choice for OpenVMS customers, but weeI want to support them moving on their own timetable. We will be evaluating  what new tools and serviceslC may be required to help them transition to HP-UX if they so desire.   K How kind of HP to allow us to transition on our own timetable. Mine will bee" in January - on a rather cold day.  
 Howard Taylor    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 03:04:33 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>-H Subject: Re: OT: Outlook Web Mail (was Re: CSWS / CSWB / MX Speculation)' Message-ID: <3CD9EA57.DA58A647@fsi.net>c   "Craig A. Berry" wrote:D > ) > In article <3CD8946F.19023E2D@fsi.net>,y5 >  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  >  > > "Craig A. Berry" wrote:n > > >eJ > > > hate to say it, but Microsoft Outlook Web Access is a very well doneD > > > implementation of a fully functional mail client done as a web > > > application. > >  > > Do you know: > >aL > > Is there a version of Outlook web mail that allows the use of folders in@ > > the contact view? Whatever version we have at work does not. > E > It appears to be possible with Exchange 5.5 SP4, though it's prettyII > darn awkward.  There is a move/copy folder button, and though it is not7F > visible in Contacts view you can create a folder in another view andE > move it into your Contacts folder using the move/copy button (whichn9 > looks like a piece of paper being stuffed in a folder).n  F Outlook web mail says that folders are not supported in our version ofC Outlook web mail. Don't see what the back-end server has to do with- that.m   -- a David J. Dachterar dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/i   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 01:22:27 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o Subject: Powered by HP, Message-ID: <3CDA078D.9B2749FC@videotron.ca>  O Went on to Yahoo. They used to have a "powered by Compaq" logon on their pages.h  It now sports a "powered by HP".   I guess HP won them back :-)  I HP sure didn't waste time with these. I wonder how long ago HP would havedJ gotten in touch with all those web sites that have the "powered by compaq"J logo to prepare them with the new logo and tell themn to wait for a signal when they can switch themu   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 16:57:29 -0700 & From: chessmaster1010@hotmail.com (JG) Subject: Re: Read_verify= Message-ID: <dd3f0cb7.0205081557.10904d7f@posting.google.com>l  B You need to add a .PSECTs before your data section and another oneB before your code section.   PSECTS ARE HIGHLY RECOMMENDED EVEN FORD VAX-ONLY MACRO CODE.  A simple PSECT for your data section would be:   .PSECT  LOCAL   PIC,NOEXE,QUAD  : And before the code section (right before the .ENTRY) use:  " .PSECT  CODE    PIC,SHR,NOWRT,QUAD  V "IdrEASY" <IdrEASY@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:<abalua$hq1$1@as201.hinet.hr>... > Hi!6 > < > I will be thankful if somebody modify this code for Alpha.G > ---------------------------------------------------------------------  > 9 >         .TITLE READ_VERIFY - Read Verify Coding Example  >... : >         .END READ_VERIFY   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:35:35 +0100nU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>   Subject: Re: Revisionist history0 Message-ID: <abbo37$h8n$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:  8 > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message ... >  >> >>Rob Young wrote: >> >>B >>>In article <IW9C8.15$596.171152@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred >>> 3 > Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:u > L >>>>>The whole point to the "affordable" thing is to *EXPAND* the VMS market >>>>>base, not shrink it.  >>>>>P >>>>>e >>>>>mH >>>>IA64 may be the way that we get to affordable, at least that is *my* >>>> > hope.l >  >>>>F >>>Ours too.  You had mentioned it before but please do us all a favorF >>>and make sure no firmware games are played.  As a for instance, the9 >>>DS20L - Linux only.  A lot like an Alpha NT box to me.  >>>lB >>>From what I understand (your earlier comments) you are ensuringF >>>firmware plays fair across the board.  Forgive my lack of technical& >>>knowledge , but you catch my drift. >>>- >>>- >>> >>Freddy has already stated that no companies devolve business< >>decisions to technicians, in other words he's powerless to2 >>help you influence what is a commecial decision. >> >> > L > Andy-pandy old bean.  Do take a pill, the doctor says that unless you stay6 > on the meds, you'll continue to have these episodes. > M > Just one other thing.  Aside from my grandmother, I prefer that most people K > call me Fred, Frederick, or even Mr. Kleinsorge.  If you in your childishlK > way just want us to continue this BS of Andy vs Freddy - please continue,pM > and I'll be happy to be as much an ass as you - because I really don't liker& > you quite as much as my grandmother. >     ; Learn to post without resorting to arguments that would not 8 convince the average child and you may earn the right to be called whatever you like.  7 At the moment Freddy boy fits perfectly get used to it.    Regardso Andrew Harrisona   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:51:54 -0400o( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Revisionist history, Message-ID: <3CD965BA.6050702@tsoft-inc.com>   Rob Young wrote:  s > In article <IW9C8.15$596.171152@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:  > J >>>The whole point to the "affordable" thing is to *EXPAND* the VMS market >>>base, not shrink it.n >>>s >>>hL >>IA64 may be the way that we get to affordable, at least that is *my* hope. >> >> > F > 	Ours too.  You had mentioned it before but please do us all a favorF > 	and make sure no firmware games are played.  As a for instance, the9 > 	DS20L - Linux only.  A lot like an Alpha NT box to me.  > B > 	From what I understand (your earlier comments) you are ensuringF > 	firmware plays fair across the board.  Forgive my lack of technical& > 	knowledge , but you catch my drift.    D The issue is drivers for a particular piece, or pieces, of hardware.  P In the windoz world, the mfg of the device many times provides a windoz driver. N   Not to many people provide VMS drivers for any devices.  This will probably M NOT change.  VMS, and most other OSs, are at a perceived disadvantage due to aL this.  Thus, VMS will NOT run on just any IA-64 configuration.  And when HP Q starts to qualify specific devices, and subsequently charges a premium for them, o! you'll be back where you started.o  L Then again, some of us might not be real happy with some of the third party N drivers, should they be written for VMS.  Real unhappy should some buggy ones  run in KERNEL mode.e   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 13:53:15 -0400,( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Revisionist history, Message-ID: <3CD9660B.2080509@tsoft-inc.com>  * Be nice, you'll hurt Andy's feelings.  :-)   Ian King wrote:k  E > Since when is Sun a major player?   <insert derisive laughter here>v   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:47:37 GMT- From: jim@lxux.com (Jim Reiss)< Subject: Re: Scott Stallard, forget your VMS to HP UX dream!B Message-ID: <dpeC8.133408$Lj.10433342@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  H >PS: I don't have any HP-UX experience, so can somebody who does explain6 >why we should move to HP-UX instead of another Unix ?E I have a great deal of experience migrating VMS applications to UNIX,kE and while I have successfully ported software to HP-UX on a number ofgE occasions, I would not say that there is a good reason to choose that D variant over the other UNIX and Linux options.  I often saw problemsE that were HP-UX specific.  I developed the opinion that while H-P wasnC good at designing hardware, they really should avoid software.  NotsH their thing.  Maybe some of the acquired DECpaq people will help in that regard.m  A I have had the best experiences migrating VMS code to Linux.  ThedB Intel/AMD CISC architecture helps a lot with code that was writtenG before data alignment was important, it's got the same byte ordering asaC VAX/Alpha, and it's fast for interprocess communication.  I haven'twG tried NetBSD/OpenBSD/FreeBSD but I'd guess they're pretty good choices.eK The best commercial OS for migrating VMS applications is probably Tru64 (oruJ whatever it may get renamed to).  It also has little-endian byte ordering,3 and the OS takes the best of both System V and BSD.t  D Any UNIX or UNIX-like OS is far better than Windows for a migration,K though.  An operating system lacking the concepts of "terminal", "user ID",oL and "remote user" (among other things), and having such limited interprocessJ communication facilities as Windows does, tends to require a lot more workB to get the software ported.  HP-UX looks great in that comparison.   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 11:51:02 -07006( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)< Subject: Re: Scott Stallard, forget your VMS to HP UX dream!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205081051.3d4ff1bd@posting.google.com>n  } clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) wrote in message news:<U33EoUda$sjd@eisner.encompasserve.org>...Pj > In article <d7791aa1.0205071046.57201e02@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:: > > So VMS is secure and the itanium port is also, but Mr.; > > Stallard, knock off the "we think the VMS to HP UX portt9 > > idea is a great one" talk ... we are not leaving vms,w; > > and if you try to force us off of VMS it will not be tol > > your unix garbage! > J > I have seen the followups to this posting, but I have not seen mentioned/ > in what context the above statement was made.  > N > Did he say it as a general statement, ie: We think that all VMS users shouldL > move to HP-UX, or was it more specific, ie: If you _do_ decide to move offO > VMS, we think that you should move to HP-UX instead of a Microsoft solution ?  > K > Also, where did he actually say this, and if it's online does anyone have  > a URL for it ? >  > Simon. >   A it's right here off the openvms.compaq site ... Stallard in this 3 assuring pdf mentions   F 1) tools being developed to help port from vms to hp ux (why, Capellas*    said unix was going to be eviscurated?)  ; 2) says in the Q/A on the bottom, were they have a question 9    "Will a migration path to hp ux be available"? were he =    responds "Yes, as we believe hp ux on IPF is the best pathe    for VMS users" ...e  @ again, why if unix will be eviscerated?  That means it should be& the opposite, move hp ux users to VMS!  8 http://www.compaq.com/hps/download/5_6_hp_newsletter.pdf   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:56:30 -0400r2 From: norm lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com>  Subject: Re: simh VAX VMS users?* Message-ID: <3CD9AD1E.982C80B7@oracle.com>  / I copied the kit over to my windows 2000 systeme0 and built with developer studio.  I had a bit of1 trouble finding the right way to compile and link-. the socket interfaces, so I just #ifdef'd that out. 4  * here's my ini file on my w2k installation:  & load -r c:\nlastovi\simh\vax\ka655.bin set rq0 ra72 set rq1 ra72 att rq0 c:\temp\d0.dsk att rq1 c:\temp\d1.dsk SET CPU 64M- boot cpu  ( huw.davies@kerberos.davies.net.au wrote: > 5 > norm lastovica <norman.lastovica@oracle.com> wrote:RH > > I've been playing around with running VMS on the SIMH VAX simulator.J > > Most things are working OK.  I've installed VMS V7.3, a DEC C compilerB > > and Rdb.  I'm trying to debug a problem where a process in theH > > simulated environment seems to get stuck waiting for a disk write to& > > the system disk seems to complete. > > > > Anyone else got this up and running?  Any tricks to share? > J > I'm running it on Linux/Alpha. The only issue I had was that it wouldn't > run correctly when compiled using gcc. Changing to ccc got it up and running. OpenVMS 7.3 is installed and I've been using it to test some code for a colleague. > --A > Huw Davies          | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au ? >                     | "If God had wanted soccer played in thea< >                     | air, the sky would be painted green"   -- -> norman lastovica / oracle rdb engineering / usa / 610.696.4685   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 17:56:31 GMTw( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>! Subject: Re: SMTP Usage Filter...e+ Message-ID: <3CD96736.DCF86813@pacbell.net>2   John Johnstone wrote:C >  > Don Sykes wrote: > ...dN > > Thanks for that, but I need to accept incoming SMTP and I use Compaq TCPIPO > > Services. I'll try to match your Mulinet suggestions to my smtp.cong rules.eR > > I think the answer for me is there is no EASY way to block all spammers. I mayQ > > just to adjust the Good-Clients/Bad Clients list on an on-going basis - yuck!  > J > Keeping the volume down to a dull roar is the best that you can hope forH > since new sources of spam are always springing up faster than they canI > be listed.  Although some people have recommended against maintaining awJ > list of bad clients, I've found that there are some sources of spam thatG > don't seem to make it to the RBLs that I've been using.  I think it'ssF > probably due to the fact that they're producing a low volume of spamG > overall.  Perhaps a large volume to a small number of recipients.  IfiF > you happen to be one of those recipients, then in my opinion, that's# > what the bad clients list is for.n > H > I've been using TCP/IP 5.1 with relays.ordb.org, relays.osirusoft.com,@ > and bl.spamcop.net for about a month with pretty good results., Do any offer the service for free or < $100?   >  UsingG > the RBL for blocking and not tagging is somewhat risky but since it'suC > all you can do with TCP/IP 5.1, it's all or nothing.  You need touH > consider what type of email category you're in when deciding how to doF > the filtering.   I think if the majority of your email is with largeH > company sites, your risk of blocking a legitimate mail is quite small.I > Also, if you need to be able to receive mail internationally, you can'teJ > realistically use the strategy that others have mentioned such as takingJ > out major 8-bit subnets such as 202, 203, 210, etc.  My company needs toG > be able to do quite a bit of mail internationally though and yet I'llnE > admit that I've got one /9 subnet in my bad list.  :-)  That hasn't E > snagged any legitimate mail yet but if it does, I'll have to cut itm@ > back.  The big caveat also is "snagged any that I know about". > H > If you nose around at relays.osirusoft.com you'll find a link to checkG > an IP address against a very comprehensive list of various RBLs.  YouvI > can use that to check a sample of your spam IPs to see how they show upcF > on the different lists since each list has its own "personality" andJ > listing criteria.  This will help you decide which list you want to use. > G > Some spammers are quite helpful in that they use a consistent name or G > domain in their Return-Path.  I've found that when you can, it's much0J > better to use that instead of a block via IP address.  When you block byI > IP address you drop the connection before the SMTP HELO.  Even though anC > 550 response is sent back, most SMTP agents just handle this as a0H > general error and the mail will be retried at the next retry interval.G > This can result in a lot of pestering by all of the mail servers thataF > you're blocking especially if their retry interval is real short.  II > finally filtered one address at our router that was doing a retry everyJD > two minutes for more than a week.  From what I've seen, if you canJ > filter via the Mail From address, even though a 550 is the same responseG > that issued, the sending agent just gives up as if it's a fatal erroruE > and doesn't do any retries.  Depending on how the sending system isnI > setup, either an error will make it back to someone who will see it, or J > the error just falls off into the bit bucket.  Either way, it results inG > less overhead on the receiving end.  Actually, at sending end too but H > lowering their overhead is just the opposite of what we'd really like,
 > right?  :-)s  @ Sounds like another good suggestion. Would I define them via the "Reject-Mail-From" parameter?  > I > If having the mail sit in a retry queue was a significant burden to theoI > sending system, then maybe doing the drops based on IP address might be J > a better idea and worth the overhead on our end.  Unfortunately, I don't > think that's the case.   -- t   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San FranciscoD   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 21:07:56 -04008+ From: John Johnstone <jj_usenet2@yahoo.com>r! Subject: Re: SMTP Usage Filter... ) Message-ID: <3CD993AB.6B436437@yahoo.com>    Don Sykes wrote: >  > John Johnstone wrote:e ... J > > I've been using TCP/IP 5.1 with relays.ordb.org, relays.osirusoft.com,B > > and bl.spamcop.net for about a month with pretty good results.. > Do any offer the service for free or < $100?  H All of the ones listed here are free.  Just be sure you know what you're" getting into if you're using them.  # > > From what I've seen, if you can L > > filter via the Mail From address, even though a 550 is the same responseI > > that issued, the sending agent just gives up as if it's a fatal erroriG > > and doesn't do any retries.  Depending on how the sending system ishK > > setup, either an error will make it back to someone who will see it, oreL > > the error just falls off into the bit bucket.  Either way, it results inI > > less overhead on the receiving end.  Actually, at sending end too but J > > lowering their overhead is just the opposite of what we'd really like, > > right?  :-)P > B > Sounds like another good suggestion. Would I define them via the > "Reject-Mail-From" parameter?2  / Yes, you can create a list with something like:.  # Reject-Mail-From: *intervolved.net,D <tab>*discountsyoulove*, <tab>*dealsuwant*, <tab>*coverclicks*,o <tab>*emailfactory*, <tab>*vmadmin.com, <tab>*iexpect.com, <tab>*freelotto.com, <tab>*two-river.com, <tab>*marketingontarget.net, <tab>*netpaloffers.com,o <tab>*real-net.net,w <tab>*bunta.com, <tab>*mytravelco.com,e <tab>*etracks.com, <tab>*mailsendpro.com, <tab>*emsiweb.comh  F Just be sure to stay within the 500 character limit.  One way to do anG approximate check of how many characters you've got is to position your 2 cursor at the beginning of the value and then do aB <PF1>500<Arrow-right> with either EDT or EVE with the bound cursor option enabled.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 23:07:38 -0400e1 From: Michael Austin <maustin@firstdbasource.com> ! Subject: Re: SMTP Usage Filter...i2 Message-ID: <3CD9E7FA.7ED510F9@firstdbasource.com>   Tom Linden wrote:U >  > So would following work? >  > Reject-Mail: 210.0.0.0/8 > Accept-Mail: 210.49.0.0/16 >  > >-----Original Message-----oC > >From: Mark(unMASK)Forsyth [mailto:forsytMhm@optAushoSme.com.aKu]6& > >Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 9:25 PM > >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com$ > >Subject: Re: SMTP Usage Filter... > >- > >- > >-A > >"Michael Austin" <maustin@firstdbasource.com> wrote in messagen/ > >news:3CD73636.175F7A40@firstdbasource.com...  > >- > >[deletia] > >-D > >> Add these as well, these are entire Asia/Pacific (China) entire > >> networks. > >>A > >> Bad-Clients: 210.0.0.0/8,211.0.0.0/8,202.0.0.0/8,203.0.0.0/8t > >o0 > >You're knocking out bits of Oz too with that. > > + > >inetnum:     210.49.0.0 - 210.49.255.255U  > >netname:     OPTUSINTERNET-AU' > >descr:       OPTUS INTERNET - RETAIL>! > >descr:       INTERNET SERVICESc  > >descr:       St Leonards, NSW > >country:     AU > >gC > >Why not just block China Telecom, that stops just about the lot.a > >t > >Ooroo > >Mark F... > >a > >  > >>M > >> I was getting a bunch of rejections in OPCOM, until they finally got thee5 > >> message and now I get none from those addresses.  > >> -- 
 > >> Regards,o > >>< > >> Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163< > >> First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.com > >> Sr. Consultant  > >> 704-947-1089 (Office) > >> 704-236-4377 (Mobile) > >> > >  > >  > >---) > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.y= > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).lC > >Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/19/2002s > >  > --- ( > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.< > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A > Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002b  ? Look at the rules in the docs, and I believe the answer is yes.e -- , Regards,  7 Michael Austin            Registered Linux User #261163 7 First DBA Source, Inc.    http://www.firstdbasource.com  Sr. Consultant 704-947-1089 (Office)e 704-236-4377 (Mobile)r   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 12:09:12 -0700-( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski): Subject: Re: SOT: Yo Andrew, you guys on a roll this week?< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205081109.1591399@posting.google.com>  v "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<3xaC8.20$jk6.566306@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>...) > More keen and insightful analysis Andy?  >  > Your cache drop a bit? > 8 > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message ...	 > >Blimey, > >a# > >Has Bob got a lost twin brother.r > ><
 > >Regards > >Andrew Harrison > >v > >Dan Allen wrote:s > >D  " no, it is just on Sun systems that   "ALLEN" = "CECULSKI"   :)c   ------------------------------   Date: 8 MAY 2002 14:55:48 GMT 4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)6 Subject: SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President?5 Message-ID: <8MAY02.14554885@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>m  H I received what I thought was a SPAM e-mail which claimed to be from the; "HP Office of the CEO and President" with a from address of D R-0-740133-5011673-2-66028-US1-E12BEF25@xmr3.com. It was entirely inA HTML format, which I usually delete. For kicks I viewed it with axA browser and it does look like it could be from "the new HP". I've 0 included the entire text below with the headers.  . My point (if this message really is from HP):   : The first contact from HP with Compaq customers is an HTMLJ only e-mail message that looks like a spam many people will simply delete!( They just re-invented "clueless" for me.   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madisonl   Here's the complete message:C -------------------------------------------------------------------w? Return-path: <D-8-740133-5011673-2-66028-US1-708F2A88@xmr3.com>sE Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.Waisman.Wisc.EDU by Waisman.Wisc.EDUeC  (PMDF V6.0-24 #39540) id <01KHGDNRTDR4A7ZFN7@Waisman.Wisc.EDU> forg@  karcher@Waisman.Wisc.EDU (ORCPT karcher@waisman.wisc.edu); Tue,!  07 May 2002 17:40:25 -0500 (CDT)h+ Received: from memailout31.messagereach.como1  (memailout31.messagereach.com [205.183.255.159])a*  by Waisman.Wisc.EDU (PMDF V6.0-24 #39540)8  with ESMTP id <01KHGDNCFBZGA2895B@Waisman.Wisc.EDU> for@  karcher@Waisman.Wisc.EDU (ORCPT karcher@waisman.wisc.edu); Tue,!  07 May 2002 17:40:24 -0500 (CDT)) Content-return: prohibited% Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 18:40:23 -0400r( From: HP Office of the CEO and President3  <R-0-740133-5011673-2-66028-US1-E12BEF25@xmr3.com>  Subject: Welcome to the New HP To: karcher@Waisman.Wisc.Edu> Message-id: <I-8-740133-5011673-2-66028-US1-9A495D92@xmr3.com> MIME-version: 1.0r+ Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 3 Original-recipient: rfc822;karcher@waisman.wisc.eduw   Dear Valued Customer,X  G Today we bring together two great companies to create one world-leading B technology company that we hope will earn the coveted role as yourG partner of choice. Hard work and the courage of our convictions broughtoE us to this day. Now, we're eager to prove we can seize the moment and.? lead the change in our industry. Most important, we're eager toeA demonstrate that our passion for customers is stronger than ever.l  B We believe this merger offers our customers important benefits. ByB combining our strengths, we not only create the industry's leadingC portfolio of products, technologies and solutions, we're putting aneF extraordinary set of people, skills and processes at your disposal. We= more than double the number of IT architects, consultants andiG professionals available to help you get the most out of your technologyD? investments. We are now the leader in the technologies that aremD essential to running your business: servers, fault-tolerant systems,D storage solutions, network management software, imaging and printingG solutions and personal computers. We have doubled the size of our salesXG force, enabling us to serve you more effectively and to deliver greaternE value. We have increased our research and development capabilities sosG that we continue to make meaningful advances in technology that benefitt> you. And we have strengthened our position as the world's mostF innovative and successful consumer IT company, which gives us a uniqueC opportunity to help our business customers bridge the world betweenr content and commerce.   G By joining forces, we will also be able to reduce costs and improve our!C operating model, enabling us to devote more of our resources towardlF pursuits that produce greater value for you - today and in the future.  H While this merger obviously signifies change, we are committed to makingH the process of integrating our two companies as transparent as possible.F In fact, many aspects of doing business with the combined company will@ remain the same - starting with our unwavering commitment to putG customers first. Around the world, employees and partners of the new HPyG will make every effort to ensure that your day-to-day interactions with C the new company go smoothly throughout the integration period - andnF beyond. In the coming weeks, we will continue to provide you with more information on the new HP.  E On behalf of the people of the new HP, we would like to thank you forcB standing by us through this important journey. We do not take yourH loyalty for granted. We look forward to proving ourselves and building aH new kind of technology company - one that you will be proud to call your strategic IT partner.   
 Warm regards,r    
 Carly Fiorinao$ Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Michael Capellas	 Presidents    3 Direct all replies to mergerhotline@hp-feedback.come    @ Please be advised that you will not receive any additional email> from HP unless you have explicitly asked to receive it. If you@ have any questions or concerns, please click below to learn more about our Privacy Policy.e$ http://p01.com/u.d?tETRYJxo1Vne03=30C -------------------------------------------------------------------p   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 20:08:01 GMT6# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>-: Subject: Re: SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President?F Message-ID: <BAfC8.2845$QOT.2422@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  A "Carl Karcher" <karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu> wrote in messagee/ news:8MAY02.14554885@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu...iJ > I received what I thought was a SPAM e-mail which claimed to be from the= > "HP Office of the CEO and President" with a from address ofuF > R-0-740133-5011673-2-66028-US1-E12BEF25@xmr3.com. It was entirely inC > HTML format, which I usually delete. For kicks I viewed it with adC > browser and it does look like it could be from "the new HP". I'vee2 > included the entire text below with the headers. >l/ > My point (if this message really is from HP):n >r< > The first contact from HP with Compaq customers is an HTMLL > only e-mail message that looks like a spam many people will simply delete!* > They just re-invented "clueless" for me. >n      5 > Direct all replies to mergerhotline@hp-feedback.comr  H This site is a legitimate HP site. I plan on using this email address toL express my disgust at the apparent lack of marketing support for VMS and the push for HP/UX.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:28:47 -0400C- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>.: Subject: Re: SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President?+ Message-ID: <3CD9A69A.F402305@videotron.ca>-   Carl Karcher wrote:o > J > I received what I thought was a SPAM e-mail which claimed to be from the= > "HP Office of the CEO and President" with a from address of"F > R-0-740133-5011673-2-66028-US1-E12BEF25@xmr3.com. It was entirely in' > HTML format, which I usually delete. e  G I got two letters. One in french by Carly and Curly celebrating the new L company, it was in multipart, french followed by HTML, and one by the hed ofL HP Canada who introduced himself and discussed the "it is business as usual") stuff. It also has text followed by HTML.   L But I agree that they shoudl have just put text only. But remember those areK all Windows weenies and they probably doN't have access to text only stuff.o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 22:36:40 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger): Subject: Re: SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President?K Message-ID: <rdeininger-0805022236400001@1cust119.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   4 In article <3CD9A69A.F402305@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:t   >Carl Karcher wrote: >> sK >> I received what I thought was a SPAM e-mail which claimed to be from theu> >> "HP Office of the CEO and President" with a from address ofG >> R-0-740133-5011673-2-66028-US1-E12BEF25@xmr3.com. It was entirely inl( >> HTML format, which I usually delete.  > H >I got two letters. One in french by Carly and Curly celebrating the newM >company, it was in multipart, french followed by HTML, and one by the hed ofyM >HP Canada who introduced himself and discussed the "it is business as usual"t* >stuff. It also has text followed by HTML. >?M >But I agree that they shoudl have just put text only. But remember those areeL >all Windows weenies and they probably doN't have access to text only stuff.  B They probably use Nanosoft Outhouse for an email client.  ("Curly" certainly does.)  F If anyone knows how to force Nanosoft Outhouse to send plain text, notG HTML, not quoted-printable, please explain it to the rest of us.  I cannG turn off HTML, but "plain text" actually gets encoded quoted-printable.l  I I trust everyone who objects to the content or format of the HP email hasi" responded to the feedback address.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 20:14:49 -0700 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com> : Subject: Re: SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President?) Message-ID: <3CD9E9A9.C03DEC94@rdrop.com>    Robert Deininger wrote:k > H > If anyone knows how to force Nanosoft Outhouse to send plain text, notI > HTML, not quoted-printable, please explain it to the rest of us.  I can I > turn off HTML, but "plain text" actually gets encoded quoted-printable.   B Er, no.  In Outlook 2000, Tools -> Options -> set format to "Plain% Text".  It forces a header that says:n  0   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"  G But it's not MIME encapsulated.  (Later versions may be further broken;eD but this works for me.)  However, if you reply to a MIME message, it' overrides your settings no matter what.s   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 03:43:14 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>: Subject: Re: SPAM from HP Office of the CEO and President?B Message-ID: <mfmC8.106818$q8.11013480@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  2 "Dean Woodward" <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote in message# news:3CD9E9A9.C03DEC94@rdrop.com...t > Robert Deininger wrote:r > >tJ > > If anyone knows how to force Nanosoft Outhouse to send plain text, notK > > HTML, not quoted-printable, please explain it to the rest of us.  I can K > > turn off HTML, but "plain text" actually gets encoded quoted-printable.r >aD > Er, no.  In Outlook 2000, Tools -> Options -> set format to "Plain' > Text".  It forces a header that says:a >f2 >   Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >pI > But it's not MIME encapsulated.  (Later versions may be further broken; F > but this works for me.)  However, if you reply to a MIME message, it) > overrides your settings no matter what.   L I'm not disputing that, but there is a 'Plain Text Settings' subsidiary menuG that gives you a choice between plain-text MIME and plain-text Uuencode?H message format that *might* help (I haven't checked, but I have my 'NewsL Sending Format' settings set to the latter and haven't received complaints - at least on that score...).    - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 11:57:42 -0700 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Stallards smoking gun!t= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205081057.1bd0f0b5@posting.google.com>i  : it's right here in the pdf off of the openvms web site ... in the bottom under VMS Q/A ...   8 Q: Will a migration path from vms to hp ux be available?7 A: Yes! and we believe this is the best path on IPF for3
    VMS users!7  7 If VMS is being ported to Itanium, why would porting toe6 hp ux be the best alternative?  Does this sound like a. company that is going to support VMS?  NO WAY!4 This is the same kind of bull#!&# talk Palmer at DEC6 did w/NT affinity ... like I said Stallard, if you try8 to force us off of VMS, it WILL NOT BE TO HP ux garbage!  8 http://www.compaq.com/hps/download/5_6_hp_newsletter.pdf   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:05:56 -0400* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov># Subject: RE: Stallards smoking gun!i- Message-ID: <0033000063191411000002L012*@MHS>i  # =0AFrom my cold, dead, keyboard....m   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETh% Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 2:58 PMkB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET Subject: Stallards smoking gun!     : it's right here in the pdf off of the openvms web site ... in the bottom under VMS Q/A ...P  8 Q: Will a migration path from vms to hp ux be available?7 A: Yes! and we believe this is the best path on IPF foru
    VMS users!i  7 If VMS is being ported to Itanium, why would porting ton6 hp ux be the best alternative?  Does this sound like a. company that is going to support VMS?  NO WAY!4 This is the same kind of bull#!&# talk Palmer at DEC6 did w/NT affinity ... like I said Stallard, if you try8 to force us off of VMS, it WILL NOT BE TO HP ux garbage!  9 http://www.compaq.com/hps/download/5_6_hp_newsletter.pdf=d   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 20:03:31 GMTc# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>m# Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!vE Message-ID: <nwfC8.2812$QOT.911@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>e   Why are you surprised?    5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagea7 news:d7791aa1.0205081057.1bd0f0b5@posting.google.com... < > it's right here in the pdf off of the openvms web site ...! > in the bottom under VMS Q/A ...s > : > Q: Will a migration path from vms to hp ux be available?9 > A: Yes! and we believe this is the best path on IPF for  >    VMS users!2 >09 > If VMS is being ported to Itanium, why would porting toM8 > hp ux be the best alternative?  Does this sound like a0 > company that is going to support VMS?  NO WAY!6 > This is the same kind of bull#!&# talk Palmer at DEC8 > did w/NT affinity ... like I said Stallard, if you try: > to force us off of VMS, it WILL NOT BE TO HP ux garbage! >:: > http://www.compaq.com/hps/download/5_6_hp_newsletter.pdf   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 20:43:11 GMTi# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>i# Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!.I Message-ID: <z5gC8.17762$GLp1.15568@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagea7 news:d7791aa1.0205081057.1bd0f0b5@posting.google.com...-< > it's right here in the pdf off of the openvms web site ...! > in the bottom under VMS Q/A ...U >  > 9 > If VMS is being ported to Itanium, why would porting tot  > hp ux be the best alternative?  L Because if HP can use FUD on enough customers quickly to get them to port toJ HP/UX,  then they can pull the plug on the IA-64 port, notwithstanding the" prior public statements otherwise.  K Carly & Co. get paid by boosting the bottom line for HP. If they think thatuG they can make more money for the company by strangling VMS, then that's4H exactly what they will do, without any regard for the customer impact it
 will have.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 20:43:40 GMT:0 From: "Matt Muggeridge" <Matt.Muggeridge@hp.com># Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!0@ Message-ID: <06gC8.108009$o66.314312@news-server.bigpond.net.au>   Bob,  K Did you paraphrase that?  When I look at the document, the last OpenVMS Q/Ab
 is stated as:a  , Q: Will you offer a migration path to HP-UX?3 A: Yes. We believe HP-UX on Itanium is an excellent,. long-term choice for OpenVMS customers, but we3 want to support them moving on their own timetable.r1 We will be evaluating what new tools and servicesi0 may be required to help them transition to HP-UX if they so desire.  K Now, of course you could interpret this a dozen different ways depending on:E your mood or personality type, but regardless, this statement is veryaL different to the one you have represented.  Am I looking in the right place?   Matt.c   --= -------------------------------------------------------------t OpenVMS TCP/IP Engineering Enterprise Computing Group Hewlett Packard Corporation  Gold Coast, AUSTRALIAo= -------------------------------------------------------------t    5 "Bob Ceculski" <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote in messagen7 news:d7791aa1.0205081057.1bd0f0b5@posting.google.com...u< > it's right here in the pdf off of the openvms web site ...! > in the bottom under VMS Q/A ...2 >:: > Q: Will a migration path from vms to hp ux be available?9 > A: Yes! and we believe this is the best path on IPF for? >    VMS users!A >.9 > If VMS is being ported to Itanium, why would porting tou8 > hp ux be the best alternative?  Does this sound like a0 > company that is going to support VMS?  NO WAY!6 > This is the same kind of bull#!&# talk Palmer at DEC8 > did w/NT affinity ... like I said Stallard, if you try: > to force us off of VMS, it WILL NOT BE TO HP ux garbage! >c: > http://www.compaq.com/hps/download/5_6_hp_newsletter.pdf   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 18:31:53 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> # Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!l, Message-ID: <3CD9A753.9B7FA31F@videotron.ca>   Bob Ceculski wrote:e9 > If VMS is being ported to Itanium, why would porting toi8 > hp ux be the best alternative?  Does this sound like a0 > company that is going to support VMS?  NO WAY!  F Where is that famous secret letter you were so proudly talking about ?   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 13:07:57 -0700W( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)! Subject: Sun to use AMD chips ...a= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205081207.2967422f@posting.google.com>w  / well Andrew, I guess your sparc team ran out of - new ideas beyond running 80,000 chip boxes to.' keep up w/EV7 ... from the inquirer ....     Sun will use AMD Opterons    Sock'it'to'em Scott % By Eva Glass, 08/05/2002 20:18:48 BSTW  D I TOOK A TRIP over to Old Blighty last weekend  my, oh my, that old place really needs a shake up.C But on my travels I met someone from Sun Microsystems who tipped me29 the wink about the "close connection" between it and AMD.   ? He told me, and said that I should keep it quiet, that Sun willoD definitely use Opterons when the CPUs formerly known as Sledgehammer launch.-  : Better than that  Sun will sell boxes containing multiple' Sledgehammers under its own brand name.n  C What are the reasons for this? It's not, believe me, anything to doXE with the fact that Sun's roadmaps are, how can I say, pie-in-the-sky.d  F And it's certainly not anything to do with the fact that Sun and Intel/ are to love and marriage like arsenic and lace.u  F Nor is it because Scott McNealy wants to stick one to Michael Dell and his famous corporation.d  D And it's nothing to do with the fact that Sun doesn't like Microsoft
 very much.  B As for Compaq and HP - never mind the flailing Big Blue, well theyD don't come into Sun's calculations. So it's nothing to do with that.  D No. It's for all of these reasons. And also because the Opteron chipC seems to perform very well under tests carried out in the locale of,	 Sun's HQ.    ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 13:04:23 -0500h+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)a! Subject: Re: sync time in cluster 3 Message-ID: <BuDh6uXN3a7E@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEALEPAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: @ > I run ntp under tcpip5.1 on one node.  How can the other nodes0 > be served this time without having to run ntp?  @ 	How accurate do you need it to be?  You could certainly cook up? 	a DCL script and probably get things to within a few seconds. s  @ 	What I take it to mean is you don't want the pain of setting upE 	and managing ntp.  Okay.  But turn it on and run ntpdate.  I may be eF 	making a bad assumption but I am assuming tcpip 5.1 is a complete NTP 	implementation.  ntpdate help:q   NTPDATEn  A      The NTPDATE utility sets the local date and time, by polling @      the NTP servers given as the server arguments, to determineA      the correct time. A number of samples are obtained from eachrF      of the servers specified and a subset of the NTP clock filter andB      selection algorithms are applied to select the best of these.  (                                     NOTE  >         The accuracy and reliability of ntpdate depends on theC         number of servers, the number of polls each time it is run,l&         and the interval between runs.  D      The NTPDATE utility can be run manually as necessary to set theF      host clock, or it can be run from the system startup command fileC      to set the clock at boot time. This is useful in some cases totB      set the clock initially before starting the NTP daemon, NTPD.B      It is also possible to run NTPDATE from a batch job. However,C      it is important to note that NTPDATE with contrived batch jobs B      is no substitute for the NTP daemon, which uses sophisticatedE      algorithms to maximize accuracy and reliability while minimizingaA      resource use. Finally, since NTPDATE does not discipline thelE      host clock frequency as does NTPD, the accuracy using NTPDATE ish
      limited.f  C      The NTPDATE utility makes time adjustments in one of two ways.s>      If it determines that the clock is wrong by more than 0.5C      second, it simply steps the time by calling the $SETIME systemlA      service. If the error is less than 0.5 seconds, it slews the E      time by temporarily adjusting system clock variables. The latter1E      technique is less disruptive and more accurate when the error is-C      small, and works quite well when NTPDATE is run by a batch jobe      every hour or two.M  D      The NTPDATE utility declines to set the date if NTPD is runningD      on the same host. When running NTPDATE every hour or two from aE      batch job, as an alternative to running NTPD, results in precisen4      enough timekeeping to avoid stepping the clock.        Formatc  +         $ ntpdate :== $multinet:ntpdate.exeMF         $ ntpdate [-bdqsv] [-a key#] [-e delay] [-k file] [-p samples]-         [-o version#] [-t timeo] [server ...]6    6  #   Additional information available:r     Parameters Options   @MULTINET NTPDATE Subtopic?   ? 	Using ntpdate it should be a couple line batch job.  Many morer: 	lines hacking up a DCL script to poll the time otherwise.   				Robr   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 13:11:26 -0500i+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)a! Subject: Re: sync time in clusterl3 Message-ID: <ePC1jb5oCUbh@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  a In article <BuDh6uXN3a7E@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:o  ( > 	Okay. But turn it on and run ntpdate.  $ 	Bad advice as you don't turn it on:   > F >      The NTPDATE utility declines to set the date if NTPD is running >      on the same host. >   ! 	You just point to it and run it.    				Rob4   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 12:32:17 -0700, From: "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com>! Subject: Re: sync time in clustero4 Message-ID: <abbug2$h0m24$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEALEPAA.tom@kednos.com... @ > I run ntp under tcpip5.1 on one node.  How can the other nodes0 > be served this time without having to run ntp?  
 How about:   $ mcr sysman SYSMAN> set env/ch+ %SYSMAN-I-ENV, current command environment:p$         Clusterwide on local cluster9         Username JOJIMBO   will be used on nonlocal nodesd   SYSMAN> config set time"   Jimu   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:40:01 -0400- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> ! Subject: Re: sync time in clustern5 Message-ID: <abbuv7$gri37$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>u  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEALEPAA.tom@kednos.com...s@ > I run ntp under tcpip5.1 on one node.  How can the other nodes0 > be served this time without having to run ntp?  K $ SET TIME/CLUSTER ! from the node with the correct time. (Haven't tried it3$ with your setup, but it should work)   -- Peter WeaverL Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer, nor theK company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it sub-contracts to.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 15:40:27 -0400o5 From: David Beatty <David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com> ! Subject: Re: sync time in clustern2 Message-ID: <0X7ZPD9Ad8U+fjAUGrIbJTS+Oykz@4ax.com>  $ Have the node that runs NTP perform:   $ MCR SYSMAN SYSMAN> SET ENVIR/CLUSTER  SYSMAN> CONFIG SET TIMEs   on a regular basis.i   Davidn  @ On Wed, 8 May 2002 10:42:48 -0700, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  ? >I run ntp under tcpip5.1 on one node.  How can the other nodes / >be served this time without having to run ntp?  >---' >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).o@ >Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:03:21 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>i! Subject: RE: sync time in clusterd9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEBDEPAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message----- = >From: David Beatty [mailto:David.Beatty@qwertysasasdfgh.com]-' >Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 12:40 PM0 >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" >Subject: Re: sync time in cluster >m >  >i% >Have the node that runs NTP perform:D >3
 >$ MCR SYSMAN4 >SYSMAN> SET ENVIR/CLUSTER >SYSMAN> CONFIG SET TIME >  >on a regular basis.   You don't mean manually?   >, >David >LA >On Wed, 8 May 2002 10:42:48 -0700, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>  >wrote:o >H@ >>I run ntp under tcpip5.1 on one node.  How can the other nodes0 >>be served this time without having to run ntp? >>---t( >>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.< >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A >>Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002k >e >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.y; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).t@ >Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002 >1 --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002w   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 13:03:20 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>i! Subject: RE: sync time in cluster 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEBDEPAA.tom@kednos.com>t  K Thanks, Next question,  what is the best way to run this command at regular 
 intervals?   >-----Original Message-----y3 >From: Peter Weaver [mailto:peter.weaver@stelco.ca]u' >Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 12:40 PMt >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" >Subject: Re: sync time in cluster >n >y/ >"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in messaget4 >news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEALEPAA.tom@kednos.com...A >> I run ntp under tcpip5.1 on one node.  How can the other nodes 1 >> be served this time without having to run ntp?e >hL >$ SET TIME/CLUSTER ! from the node with the correct time. (Haven't tried it% >with your setup, but it should work)  >i >--t
 >Peter Weaver-; >Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of myh >employer, nor theL >company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it sub-contracts to. >s >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.-; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). @ >Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002 >g --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002W   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 14:42:20 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ! Subject: RE: sync time in clustero9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEBIEPAA.tom@kednos.com>l  ? It doesn't appear to be a complete implementation.  There is not@ ntpdate.  It runs on Tru64, but not VMS, and I thought they had  a common code base.    >-----Original Message-----u3 >From: Rob Young [mailto:young_r@encompasserve.org] ' >Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 11:04 AMn >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" >Subject: Re: sync time in cluster >e >e@ >In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEALEPAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom ! >Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:iA >> I run ntp under tcpip5.1 on one node.  How can the other nodes 1 >> be served this time without having to run ntp?i > A >	How accurate do you need it to be?  You could certainly cook upt@ >	a DCL script and probably get things to within a few seconds.  >IA >	What I take it to mean is you don't want the pain of setting up F >	and managing ntp.  Okay.  But turn it on and run ntpdate.  I may be ; >	making a bad assumption but I am assuming tcpip 5.1 is a  
 >complete NTPi  >	implementation.  ntpdate help: >s >NTPDATE >hB >     The NTPDATE utility sets the local date and time, by pollingA >     the NTP servers given as the server arguments, to determinenB >     the correct time. A number of samples are obtained from eachG >     of the servers specified and a subset of the NTP clock filter andsC >     selection algorithms are applied to select the best of these.P > ) >                                    NOTEo >5? >        The accuracy and reliability of ntpdate depends on the D >        number of servers, the number of polls each time it is run,' >        and the interval between runs.s >-E >     The NTPDATE utility can be run manually as necessary to set therG >     host clock, or it can be run from the system startup command filegD >     to set the clock at boot time. This is useful in some cases toC >     set the clock initially before starting the NTP daemon, NTPD. C >     It is also possible to run NTPDATE from a batch job. However,bD >     it is important to note that NTPDATE with contrived batch jobsC >     is no substitute for the NTP daemon, which uses sophisticateduF >     algorithms to maximize accuracy and reliability while minimizingB >     resource use. Finally, since NTPDATE does not discipline theF >     host clock frequency as does NTPD, the accuracy using NTPDATE is >     limited. >uD >     The NTPDATE utility makes time adjustments in one of two ways.? >     If it determines that the clock is wrong by more than 0.5-D >     second, it simply steps the time by calling the $SETIME systemB >     service. If the error is less than 0.5 seconds, it slews theF >     time by temporarily adjusting system clock variables. The latterF >     technique is less disruptive and more accurate when the error isD >     small, and works quite well when NTPDATE is run by a batch job >     every hour or two. >mE >     The NTPDATE utility declines to set the date if NTPD is running E >     on the same host. When running NTPDATE every hour or two from aeF >     batch job, as an alternative to running NTPD, results in precise5 >     enough timekeeping to avoid stepping the clock.n >e >     Format >i, >        $ ntpdate :== $multinet:ntpdate.exeG >        $ ntpdate [-bdqsv] [-a key#] [-e delay] [-k file] [-p samples]t. >        [-o version#] [-t timeo] [server ...] >    >t$ >  Additional information available: >t >  Parameters Optionsy >g >@MULTINET NTPDATE Subtopic?   >l@ >	Using ntpdate it should be a couple line batch job.  Many more; >	lines hacking up a DCL script to poll the time otherwise.o >  >				Rob >S >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.0; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).a@ >Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002 >s ---e& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 22:19:25 GMTn. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)! Subject: RE: sync time in clustero5 Message-ID: <NvhC8.189746$vc2.2198457@news.chello.at>o  _ In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEBIEPAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:v@ >It doesn't appear to be a complete implementation.  There is noA >ntpdate.  It runs on Tru64, but not VMS, and I thought they had - >a common code base. -  
 They have.  " TCPIP:		ntpdate :== $TCPIP$NTPDATE% TCPware:	ntpdate :== $TCPWARE:NTPDATE    Look again, it is there...   -- - Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER-% Network and OpenVMS system specialist" E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 15:47:10 -0700# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ! Subject: RE: sync time in cluster?9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEBLEPAA.tom@kednos.com>?  @ Ooops.  I tried finding first in ODL, but, of course, that never3 works right.  Why is there no HELP on it, I wonder?s   >-----Original Message-----h6 >From: Peter LANGSTOEGER [mailto:peter@langstoeger.at]& >Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 3:19 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" >Subject: RE: sync time in cluster >u >f@ >In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEBIEPAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom ! >Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:rA >>It doesn't appear to be a complete implementation.  There is no:B >>ntpdate.  It runs on Tru64, but not VMS, and I thought they had  >>a common code base.  >n >They have.D >3# >TCPIP:		ntpdate :== $TCPIP$NTPDATE & >TCPware:	ntpdate :== $TCPWARE:NTPDATE >t >Look again, it is there...t >  >--  >Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER& >Network and OpenVMS system specialist >E-mail  peter@langstoeger.at!A >A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network a >_and_ VMS Job(s)- >- >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.0; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).t@ >Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002 >n ---g& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002u   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 00:38:51 GMT40 From: "Matt Muggeridge" <Matt.Muggeridge@hp.com>! Subject: Re: sync time in cluster @ Message-ID: <vyjC8.108597$o66.315510@news-server.bigpond.net.au>  & >Why is there no HELP on it, I wonder?   $ help tcpip ntp  K Admittedly, it doesn't mention how to create the foreign symbol or describe F ntpdate in any detail.  I have entered a note to our doc team on that.   Matt.m --= -------------------------------------------------------------u OpenVMS TCP/IP Engineering Enterprise Computing Group Hewlett Packard Company? Gold Coast, AUSTRALIAa= -------------------------------------------------------------I    . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEBLEPAA.tom@kednos.com...lB > Ooops.  I tried finding first in ODL, but, of course, that never5 > works right.  Why is there no HELP on it, I wonder?o >c > >-----Original Message-----g8 > >From: Peter LANGSTOEGER [mailto:peter@langstoeger.at]( > >Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 3:19 PM > >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com$ > >Subject: RE: sync time in cluster > >o > > A > >In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEBIEPAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Toma# > >Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes:oC > >>It doesn't appear to be a complete implementation.  There is noQC > >>ntpdate.  It runs on Tru64, but not VMS, and I thought they had0 > >>a common code base.s > >.
 > >They have.a > >j$ > >TCPIP: ntpdate :== $TCPIP$NTPDATE( > >TCPware: ntpdate :== $TCPWARE:NTPDATE > >  > >Look again, it is there...N > >L > >--m > >Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER( > >Network and OpenVMS system specialist > >E-mail  peter@langstoeger.ateB > >A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network > >_and_ VMS Job(s)e > >t > >---) > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.n= > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).eB > >Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002 > >  > ---B( > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.< > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).A > Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002e >P   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 16:05:52 -0700s& From: jordan@ccs4vms.com (Rich Jordan) Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSt< Message-ID: <cc5619f2.0205081505.8c29de2@posting.google.com>  s hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) wrote in message news:<1xDB8.53$Sc5.655447@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>... 2 >   USB support is part of the V7.3-1 release, andA >   it targets specific platforms and specific USB hardware.  USB 2 >   keyboard, mouse, possibly a few other devices. > @ >   Some of the prototyping was done on a USB PCI board and this@ >   might work on some boxes, but the official USB support will 2 >   be for the AlphaServer GS1280 series hardware. > > >   There was an early kit containing USB bits, but there have@ >   been a number of changes since the kit -- and there has beenA >   little or no testing and little or no support of USB hardwareh? >   on boxes prior than the AlphaServer GS1280 series hardware.n >   E So no support for the USB in the enhanced PWS###au systems?  Not thatiC its needed for keyboard or mouse, but it would be nice to have somemE options for an inexpensive scanner, or maybe a digital camera hookup.n  F By chance, if the onboard USB is really not useable, is that PCI board6 you tested with useable on a PWS, even if unsupported?   > P >  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------P >       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    P >  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------N >    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------   Date: 9 May 2002 00:57:52 GMT 2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMS * Message-ID: <abchig$laa$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  c In article <TXzenYJhocPB@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:tr :In article <icwB8.20$rZ4.124025@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes: :>  ' :> Oh.  Yuck.  I hated that mechanism. i ::G :   Why?  It was the first mouse design I ever saw that never had to be-H :   cleaned.  the only trouble I've ever had with one is that my currentF :   mouse sometimes double clicks on release of the right button (its' :   getting old)...i  F   The mouse in question was the VSXXX-AA (rev B03) Hawley three-buttonG   hockey-puck mouse with a DIN connector.  This mouse is not compatible-F   with the PS/2 series.  I have one of these among the many residents G   of my rodent graveyard.  (The LK421 is one of my recent acquisitions -G   for the 'graveyard -- these "short UNIX" keyboards were quite rare.  eD   But I digress. :-)  The "mouse" logo present on the bottom of the B   Hawley series mouse is certainly interesting -- it looks rather,A   um, cartoonish.  IIRC, the Hawley was a quadrature-style mouse.t    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 02:51:16 GMTE1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>51 Subject: Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New Companye' Message-ID: <3CD9E73A.35E9647D@fsi.net>    Bill Gunshannon wrote: > [snip]= > But, if the question was intended to somehow hint that lack ? > of presence on the INTERNET makes these OSes to obscure to bee= > hacked (wasn't obscurity one of the reasons some of us said  > VMS survived DEFCON??) [snip]    No - purely curiosity.   -- 4 David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemsr http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 22:29:01 GMTH2 From: hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) Subject: Re: VMSTAR * Message-ID: <abc8rd$hcj$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  c In article <HQ40t6LSUhtu@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:ni :In article <55f85d77.0205020655.68a27c0@posting.google.com>, P.Young@unsw.EDU.AU (Patrick Young) writes:l : A :> I'm also in the middle of increasing the maximum file size for > :> files in the archive to break the "unsigned int" byte count- :> limit (Alpha, and I expect Itanium, only).0 : F :   Is there really any value in making it longer than naml$c_maxrss ?  B   Different topic.   You are thinking of longer filenames, and theG   discussion is one of accessing larger files using C, and specifically E   an increase in the size of the off_t cell within Compaq C run-time     environment.  D   There is a CRTL ECO kit available for V7.2-1, V7.2-2, and V7.3 -- D   V7.2-1H1 is apparently underway -- that provides for larger files.E   Specifically, lseeks beyond 2GB and the (new) _LARGEFILE mechanismst   are now possible.  e  ,   Details are in the CRTL ECO release notes.    N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------N       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.com    N  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------L    Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoffman#xdelta.zko.dec.com   ------------------------------  * Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 00:14:56 +0000 (UTC)* From: bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau)5 Subject: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing?v0 Message-ID: <abcf20$kgp$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>  K Hello.  I'm running OpenVMS AXP V7.1-2 and have never used volume shadowingaO before.  I am considering how I can convince my boss to let me use them to help-J him.  We are not clustered, have just a standalone system with quite a fewF disks, all of which are directly connected SCSI disks (no HSJ, no dualN controller).  Most of the disks' contents are fairly static, but the user diskJ is fairly active.  I'm trying to build a case for shadowing the user disk.  L I thought this was going to be straightforward, but ran into a snag with theO boss as soon as I raised the idea.  He said: "What?  That would make all writesr< take twice as long."  I could tell he didn't like that idea.  K So, this post is not about how to use shadowing; I can figure that out fromtJ the online docs.  This is about how to determine, either experimentally orO theoretically, how much longer i/o takes to a shadow set vs. a standalone disk.0  M By doing some preliminary experiments, I've come up with a model for how longeL copying a file takes.  I used BACKUP to copy lots of large files, as well asM some smaller ones, between two disks, and assumed that the model was a linear / combination of factors.  My model is currently:    	T = A*M + B*N  ' T = time to complete a file copy (secs)0 M = amount of data copied (Mb)% N = number of files created (# files)u> A = transfer rate conversion factor (s/Mb) (smaller is better)+ B = file create overhead factor (secs/file).  K Note: A includes both read and write components, so it measures a file copybK operation, not a file read operation, so it won't match disk speed/transferm" rate exactly (off by factor of 2).  L By some experimentation I find that A = .3  and  B = .2 (data available uponO request).  Thus, for large files, the transfer rate dominates, as expected, bute6 for small files, the file creation overhead dominates.   First, two questions:s  L Q1: Does this seem like a reasonable model?  That is, are there factors that$ I've omitted, is it not linear, etc.  M Q2: Do the values of A and B seem reasonable?  I derived these from doing i/ogM on some 9Gb disks that are wide UltraSCSI but about 4 years old, so clearly Ai& will be smaller for more recent disks.  N Okay, now assuming this model is okay, even if not exact, what does it predictL for shadow sets?  For shadow sets with two members, the write has to be doneN twice, so we'd expect A to double.  Since the overhead in B consists of writesM to disk as well, we'd expect B to double.  Thus, this model predicts that allt> file copies/creations on a shadow set will take twice as long.  O For some reason, I don't believe this, but I can't think of anything to supporteN my position.  The only line of reasoning that comes to mind is that most filesL on the user disk are small (say, 20 blocks, or .01Mb), so the write time forH the data would increase from 3ms to 6ms, but that since B dominates, theM overall time would increase from .2s to .4s.  If B had both a fixed componenteP and a component that depended on i/o, then only the i/o component would double. ? The problem is that I have no way of determining B's breakdown.   M Q3: Does the above line of reasoning appear sound?  Is there a reason someonetN can give as to why this model does not apply for volume shadowing?  If so, can you supply an alternate model?  N Q4: Does anyone have a theoretical model (or better yet, data) to indicate howL B might be composed?  I.e., what goes into file system file create requests,( and which parts are significant in time?   Lawrence Bleau University of Maryland" Physics Dept., Space Physics Group 301-405-6223 bleau@umtof.umd.eduh   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 22:51:06 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)9 Subject: Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing?NK Message-ID: <rdeininger-0805022251060001@1cust119.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   K In article <abcf20$kgp$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, bleau@umtof.umd.edu wrote:d  L >Hello.  I'm running OpenVMS AXP V7.1-2 and have never used volume shadowing
 >before.    I It would be nice to upgrade to V7.3 or (soon) V7.3-1 if possible.  If youaB have the CSLG, (and UMD did the last I knew) you have right to newE versions of VMS, and you only need to buy/borrow/scrounge the media. n: V7.1-2 is pretty nearly frozen now as far as bug fixes go.   ....  N >Q3: Does the above line of reasoning appear sound?  Is there a reason someoneO >can give as to why this model does not apply for volume shadowing?  If so, cani >you supply an alternate model?i  H My brain is too tired to review your model carefully.  It looks like youF are generally on the right track.  But you should consider that shadowE writes to multiple volumes will overlap in time, at least partly.  ItiH should not be twice as slow with two disks in a shadow set, but somewhat better than that.a  I How busy are your disks?  If you typically have some I/Os waiting for the I disk, adding the extra spindle should increase your throughput for reads.i  B If you shadow, you'll likely want to put the two shadow members onI different controllers.  That will improve the overlap.  A single SCSI buslG can only handle 1 transfer at a time, but 2 busses can mostly overlap 2oI transfers.  Separate SCSI busses may also improve reliability; the shadowiE set will survive some controller failures.  (If a controller dies andtH hangs the PCI bus, it can effectively take out all the other adapters on, that bus, and potentially the whole system.)   ------------------------------  $ Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 20:35:14 -07006 From: "Howard Taylor" <Howard.Taylor@pacificcoast.net>9 Subject: Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing?t  Message-ID: <3cd9ed45$1@nubby2.>  7 "Lawrence Bleau" <bleau@umtof.umd.edu> wrote in messagey* news:abcf20$kgp$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...C > Hello.  I'm running OpenVMS AXP V7.1-2 and have never used volumee	 shadowingpL > before.  I am considering how I can convince my boss to let me use them to helpL > him.  We are not clustered, have just a standalone system with quite a fewH > disks, all of which are directly connected SCSI disks (no HSJ, no dualK > controller).  Most of the disks' contents are fairly static, but the user  diskL > is fairly active.  I'm trying to build a case for shadowing the user disk.  L I think writes to the shadow members happen simultaneously (at least they doK where you have an HSXX controller), so the limiting factor is exactly whereiJ the disk heads are over the corresponding sectors on each disk. I think onK average this will turn out to be a 1/2 rotation away, so the rotation speedn of your disks is a factor.  L For reads you should get better performance, because I believe the shadowing< software reads from both disks and discards the slower read.  K Volume Shadowing is a great thing for protecting data. It is also very good$J for making instantaneous backups, and very handy indeed for backing out of failed O/S upgrades.  
 Howard Taylori   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 03:29:01 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>9 Subject: Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing? A Message-ID: <12mC8.124806$N8.9884949@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>s  J Oh, dear - this may take time away from writing responses to idiots, but I guess duty takes many forms...  7 "Lawrence Bleau" <bleau@umtof.umd.edu> wrote in messages* news:abcf20$kgp$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...C > Hello.  I'm running OpenVMS AXP V7.1-2 and have never used volumeg	 shadowingnL > before.  I am considering how I can convince my boss to let me use them to helpL > him.  We are not clustered, have just a standalone system with quite a fewH > disks, all of which are directly connected SCSI disks (no HSJ, no dualK > controller).  Most of the disks' contents are fairly static, but the usero diskL > is fairly active.  I'm trying to build a case for shadowing the user disk.  H Sounds as if you already do backups to guard the fairly static stuff butJ want to avoid losing a day's (or so) work on the active disk - exactly the1 right reason to consider some form of redundancy.s   >rJ > I thought this was going to be straightforward, but ran into a snag with theVJ > boss as soon as I raised the idea.  He said: "What?  That would make all writes> > take twice as long."  I could tell he didn't like that idea.  H Perhaps because he hasn't a clue what he's talking about (ahhh - back to- responding to idiots again, just indirectly).t  J Now, I may be being hasty (not knowing at this level of detail exactly howL VMS shadowing is implemented), but there is absolutely no reason that writesH *have* to take twice as long, since the writes to both disks can executeK concurrently.  There is often a *slight* increase in time because operationgE completion must wait for both writes (i.e., the slower of the two) ton- complete, but nothing like twice the latency.a   >eH > So, this post is not about how to use shadowing; I can figure that out fromL > the online docs.  This is about how to determine, either experimentally orK > theoretically, how much longer i/o takes to a shadow set vs. a standalone  disk.  >kJ > By doing some preliminary experiments, I've come up with a model for how longK > copying a file takes.  I used BACKUP to copy lots of large files, as wellC asH > some smaller ones, between two disks, and assumed that the model was a linear1 > combination of factors.  My model is currently:s >e > T = A*M + B*N  >o) > T = time to complete a file copy (secs)   > M = amount of data copied (Mb)' > N = number of files created (# files)y@ > A = transfer rate conversion factor (s/Mb) (smaller is better)- > B = file create overhead factor (secs/file)i > H > Note: A includes both read and write components, so it measures a file copy> > operation, not a file read operation, so it won't match disk speed/transfer$ > rate exactly (off by factor of 2). > I > By some experimentation I find that A = .3  and  B = .2 (data availablea uponC > request).  Thus, for large files, the transfer rate dominates, asA
 expected, but 8 > for small files, the file creation overhead dominates. >A > First, two questions:k >dI > Q1: Does this seem like a reasonable model?  That is, are there factorsN that& > I've omitted, is it not linear, etc.  J Fragmentation effects will be significant for other than small files:  VMSI is pretty good at keeping files fairly contiguous on disk, but can't work ? magic if the disk just doesn't have contiguous space available.   H If you're copying the output files to the disk you're getting the sourceI files from, this will slow things down a lot.  From your 3 MB/sec figure,s this seems likely.   >7/ > Q2: Do the values of A and B seem reasonable?a  E They both suck.  B suggests that you might be creating the files in au( *large* directory; A commented on above.      I derived these from doing i/oE > on some 9Gb disks that are wide UltraSCSI but about 4 years old, sos	 clearly Ax( > will be smaller for more recent disks. > H > Okay, now assuming this model is okay, even if not exact, what does it predictoI > for shadow sets?  For shadow sets with two members, the write has to bet done$ > twice, so we'd expect A to double.  F No - at least I'd hope VMS doesn't work that way (it certainly doesn'tK *have* to).  OTOH, there is the problem that if your system loses power (orwL even crashes, though of course with VMS that's a rarity) you'll have to do aI complete scan/reconciliation of your shadow set before it's usable again, D since there *might* have been a write operation in progress that gotL interrupted before completely writing both copies (i.e., the copies could beJ out of synch).  Clusters solve this problem by using UPSs and/or in-memoryK information to remember what was going on at the time of such a failure (sorF only a small amount of data, not the entire disk, must be reconciled);G hardware RAIDs and some software implementations use a non-volatile log I (NVRAM or a disk log) to do essentially the same thing; but a stand-alone.G VMS system doesn't usually have NVRAM available and logging every writeOL would indeed significantly increase the write time (as your manager feared),I so if write performance is to be kept good the price paid is the need for  that complete scan on restart.  ,   Since the overhead in B consists of writesK > to disk as well, we'd expect B to double.  Thus, this model predicts thatf allf@ > file copies/creations on a shadow set will take twice as long. >pI > For some reason, I don't believe this, but I can't think of anything too support. > my position.  
 See above.   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 23:36:46 -0400e( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>9 Subject: Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing?f, Message-ID: <3CD9EECE.2020905@tsoft-inc.com>  P I don't think that's how shadowing works.  On reads, you will get the data from K the disk on which it's first available.  This is a potential speed-up, not nM slow-down.  I'd guess that the write to the second disk is strictly a system uQ issue, nothing for the user to wait on.  That's assuming that you're not writing i 100% of the time.   P In general, there will be more disk reads than writes.  Individual systems will  vary.e  T Someone who's more intimate with shadowing maybe can be more specific on the writes.   Dave     Lawrence Bleau wrote:)  M > Hello.  I'm running OpenVMS AXP V7.1-2 and have never used volume shadowingnQ > before.  I am considering how I can convince my boss to let me use them to helpaL > him.  We are not clustered, have just a standalone system with quite a fewH > disks, all of which are directly connected SCSI disks (no HSJ, no dualP > controller).  Most of the disks' contents are fairly static, but the user diskL > is fairly active.  I'm trying to build a case for shadowing the user disk. > N > I thought this was going to be straightforward, but ran into a snag with theQ > boss as soon as I raised the idea.  He said: "What?  That would make all writes:> > take twice as long."  I could tell he didn't like that idea. > M > So, this post is not about how to use shadowing; I can figure that out fromtL > the online docs.  This is about how to determine, either experimentally orQ > theoretically, how much longer i/o takes to a shadow set vs. a standalone disk.  > O > By doing some preliminary experiments, I've come up with a model for how longrN > copying a file takes.  I used BACKUP to copy lots of large files, as well asO > some smaller ones, between two disks, and assumed that the model was a lineara1 > combination of factors.  My model is currently:z >  > 	T = A*M + B*N > ) > T = time to complete a file copy (secs)r  > M = amount of data copied (Mb)' > N = number of files created (# files)r@ > A = transfer rate conversion factor (s/Mb) (smaller is better)- > B = file create overhead factor (secs/file)> > M > Note: A includes both read and write components, so it measures a file copycM > operation, not a file read operation, so it won't match disk speed/transfern$ > rate exactly (off by factor of 2). > N > By some experimentation I find that A = .3  and  B = .2 (data available uponQ > request).  Thus, for large files, the transfer rate dominates, as expected, buta8 > for small files, the file creation overhead dominates. >  > First, two questions:i > N > Q1: Does this seem like a reasonable model?  That is, are there factors that& > I've omitted, is it not linear, etc. > O > Q2: Do the values of A and B seem reasonable?  I derived these from doing i/olO > on some 9Gb disks that are wide UltraSCSI but about 4 years old, so clearly Am( > will be smaller for more recent disks. > P > Okay, now assuming this model is okay, even if not exact, what does it predictN > for shadow sets?  For shadow sets with two members, the write has to be doneP > twice, so we'd expect A to double.  Since the overhead in B consists of writesO > to disk as well, we'd expect B to double.  Thus, this model predicts that allo@ > file copies/creations on a shadow set will take twice as long. > Q > For some reason, I don't believe this, but I can't think of anything to supportjP > my position.  The only line of reasoning that comes to mind is that most filesN > on the user disk are small (say, 20 blocks, or .01Mb), so the write time forJ > the data would increase from 3ms to 6ms, but that since B dominates, theO > overall time would increase from .2s to .4s.  If B had both a fixed componenteR > and a component that depended on i/o, then only the i/o component would double. A > The problem is that I have no way of determining B's breakdown., > O > Q3: Does the above line of reasoning appear sound?  Is there a reason someonesP > can give as to why this model does not apply for volume shadowing?  If so, can  > you supply an alternate model? > P > Q4: Does anyone have a theoretical model (or better yet, data) to indicate howN > B might be composed?  I.e., what goes into file system file create requests,* > and which parts are significant in time? >  > Lawrence Bleau > University of Maryland$ > Physics Dept., Space Physics Group > 301-405-6223 > bleau@umtof.umd.edua >    ------------------------------   Date: 8 May 2002 11:43:38 -0700 ( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)? Subject: Re: Why is security so important in a VMS environment?o= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205081043.4c8294b6@posting.google.com>w  v "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<3URB8.27$UD5.327745@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>...C > David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3CD7379F.865C6A0A@fsi.net>...l > >Rich wrote: > >>7 > >> Why is security so important in a VMS environment?c > > F > >Security is important in *ANY* environment. In VMS, however, it wasI > >designed in from the start, not added on as an after thought as is the   > >case with Micro$lop and UN*X. > >  > 	 > Agreed.f >   : this is the mindset of windoze/unix/linux users/admins ... sad, isn't it folks?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 08 May 2002 21:06:39 GMT,# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>t? Subject: Re: Why is security so important in a VMS environment? I Message-ID: <zrgC8.17784$GLp1.11878@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>t  2 "Rich" <rich_thurman@hotmail.com> wrote in message7 news:f442d61d.0205061732.724a5263@posting.google.com...o4 > Why is security so important in a VMS environment? >b  H Because VMS was designed as a commercial-grade operating system from the# beginning, unlike Unix and Windows.eI Because at the time it was designed, security was taken seriously, unlikei with Unix and Windows.  K Unix started out as an experiment at Bell Labs, which then found its way tooK academia, partly to be used as a teaching tool. Security gets in the way of I teaching, so what security unix originally had was often never used. UnixsF distribution tend to she shipped with the default setting in the 'not'I secure mode. To be fair, unix has had security mechanisms since its earlymJ days, yet they were not always used. You can get fair security on unix butJ you have to work hard at it. It tends to be easier to setup and administer$ security in VMS, so it is used more.  G Windows had no security until NT. With the sloppy coding that occurs atpJ Microsoft and the rush to get product out the door, there are cumulativelyE thousands of security bugs, and these can be found in virtually everys product Microsoft sells.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 02:28:32 +0200 & From: Bob Marcan <bob.marcan@aster.si>? Subject: Re: Why is security so important in a VMS environment?a( Message-ID: <3CD9C2B0.4540B7EE@aster.si>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > C > David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3CD7379F.865C6A0A@fsi.net>...h > >Rich wrote: > >>7 > >> Why is security so important in a VMS environment?h > > F > >Security is important in *ANY* environment. In VMS, however, it wasI > >designed in from the start, not added on as an after thought as is thed  > >case with Micro$lop and UN*X. > >e > 	 > Agreed.: > @ > >> Why did VMS become a dominant Operating System in the early. > >> 80s and 90s and then fall into obscurity? > >  > >Say: "marketing". > >1 > 
 > Simplistic.e > M > The VAX and VMS came about during a time when the "super-mini" was stealingeJ > new business from the traditional mainframe market.  Most customers wereC > using custom written software, and they had their own programmingiN > departments.  It was fast, and reliable.  It had great tools, and libraries. > N > Where did it all go wrong?  Well, the VAX architecture ran out of gas.  RISCM > systems came along that were faster and cheaper.  At first this just pulledr  C Where did it all go wrong?  Well, the Alpha architecture ran out ofo
 gas.  IA64D systems came along that were faster and cheaper.  At first this just pulled   :-)    -- d@  Bob Marcan                           mailto:bob.marcan@aster.si?  Aster                                tel:    +386 (1) 5894-329s?  Nade Ovcakove 1                      fax:    +386 (1) 5894-201 @  1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia                    http://www.aster.si   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 03:05:46 GMTn1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>n? Subject: Re: Why is security so important in a VMS environment?y' Message-ID: <3CD9EAA1.37E73048@fsi.net>i   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > C > David Froble wrote in message <3CD839EA.3090904@tsoft-inc.com>...r > >Dave Gudewicz wrote:c > >s > 1 > >>> At the same time, the joke x86 architecturesH > >>>started eating things from the bottom up.  Yes, it was a joke - but > >>>I > >> anybody > >>I > >>>could afford one, and lots of useful software started being written.  > >h > >sM > >Back to protecting profit margins I see.  A desktop VAX at PC prices could  > haveL > >had lots of useful software written for it, along with the vast amount ofK > >existing applications.  But, everybody wanted the big prices, and didn'td > >consider volumn.L > >c > N > I don't think I quite agree here.  Perhaps if the VAX as an architecture hadG > been made "open" where other box makers could build VAXes... perhaps.l  9 Those who do not learn from the "mistakes" of the past...n   -- o David J. Dachterae dba DJE Systems. http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/e   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 07:13:46 +0200k2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)? Subject: Re: Why is security so important in a VMS environment? ; Message-ID: <3cda058a.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>u  " John Smith (a@nonymous.com) wrote:> > To be fair, unix has had security mechanisms since its early& > days, yet they were not always used.  H But these mechanisms weren't always very well designed, the best exampleD being the world readable /etc/passwd file. Later they kludged shadow passwords on top of that.t   cu,    Martin -- cA                      | Martin Vorlaender  |  VMS & WNT programmers. Microsoft's answer   | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deA to OpenVMS is        |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/i5 Windows NT 10.0.     | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 02:24:15 +0200-& From: Bob Marcan <bob.marcan@aster.si> Subject: Re: X-Win32( Message-ID: <3CD9C1AF.99E11669@aster.si>   "Stanley F. Quayle" wrote: >  > > Fred Zwarts wrote: > > >1E > > >  In my job we are using X-Win32 to connect in our Sun machines,aA > > >  and Id like know if I can use X-win32 to connect with ourkD > > >  VAXes machines. Reading X-win32 help I didnt find references > > >  about VMS systems.r >  > Here's what I do:  > 7 > - Set up a session to use "rexec", with a command of:l >         "@sys$login:xwin *"a > D > - In the SYS$LOGIN (initial default directory) of the user, create. >   the following command procedure, XWIN.COM: >  > $ SET NOVERIFY2 > $user = f$edit(f$getjpi("", "USERNAME"), "TRIM"). > $node = f$edit(f$trnlnm("sys$node"), "TRIM") > $if p1 .eqs. "*" > $ then7 > $  binary_ip = f$logical("sys$rem_node") - "::" - "_"t# > $  octet_1 = binary_ip .and. %xFFh/ > $  octet_2 = (binary_ip .and. %xFF00) / %x100p3 > $  octet_3 = (binary_ip .and. %xFF0000) / %x10000 6 > $  octemp = (binary_ip .and. %xFF000000) / %x1000000  > $  octet_4 = octemp .and. %xFF7 > $  p1 = "''octet_1'.''octet_2'.''octet_3'.''octet_4'"t > $endif# > $if p2 .eqs. "" then p2 = "WHITE" # > $if p3 .eqs. "" then p3 = "BLACK"i > $if p4 .eqs. "" then p4 = 30 > $if p5 .eqs. "" then p5 = 40% > $if p6 .eqs. "" then p6 = "''user'" % > $if p7 .eqs. "" then p7 = "DEFAULT"  > $open/write f1 xterm.com > $write f1 "$WAIT 00:00:2.00"F > $write f1 "$SET DISPLAY/CREATE/NODE=",p1,"/TRANSPORT=TCPIP/SERVER=0"+ > $write f1 "$CREATE/TERM=DECTERM/DETACH -" 0 > $write f1 "  /WINDOW=(BACKGROUND=""''p2'"", -"0 > $write f1            "FOREGROUND=""''p3'"", -", > $write f1            "X_POSITION=''p4', -", > $write f1            "Y_POSITION=''p5', -"2 > $write f1            "TITLE=""''node'''p6'"", -"0 > $write f1            "ICON=""''node'''p6'"", -$ > $write f1            "FONT=''p7')" > $close f1  > $ set noonA > $ if f$search ("XTERM.COM") .nes. "" then purge/nolog/noconfirmr > xterm.comiA > $ if f$search ("XTERM.LOG") .nes. "" then purge/nolog/noconfirm  > xterm.loglA > $ if f$search ("XTERM.ERR") .nes. "" then purge/nolog/noconfirmk > xterm.errd > $run /detached - >         /input=xterm.com - >         /output=xterm.log -y >         /error=xterm.err -% >                 sys$system:loginoutC >  > --Stan Quayleo# > President, Quayle Consulting Inc.h >  > ----------I > Stanley F. Quayle, P.E.   N8SQ   +1 614-868-1363   Fax: +1 614 868-1671 3 > 8572 North Spring Ct. NW, Pickerington, OH  43147 ? > Preferred address:  stan@stanq.com       http://www.stanq.com   * Fine. This is the 2**64 way to solve this. What if the server is not 0 ?      -- e@  Bob Marcan                           mailto:bob.marcan@aster.si?  Aster                                tel:    +386 (1) 5894-329o?  Nade Ovcakove 1                      fax:    +386 (1) 5894-201f@  1000 Ljubljana, Slovenia                    http://www.aster.si   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 03:01:32 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>,8 Subject: Re: ZIPped .PCSI container arrives OK on VMS???' Message-ID: <3CD9E9A2.29326FB8@fsi.net>e   Bob Koehler wrote: > ] > In article <3CD8917D.7EF791CE@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > >r4 > > I believe "the brat" is UCX/TCPIP in both cases. > >e > : >    And still the only stack without STRU VMS, I suppose?  # Dunno - gotta look into that one...a   -- t David J. Dachterat dba DJE Systemss http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/r   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.255 ************************