1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 11 May 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 260       Contents:& Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue?$ Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC$ Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC$ RE: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC Re: Bug in ANALYZE/AUDIT ?3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix - Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning 4 Re: Gartner rides again (was Re: HP Product Roadmap)& Re: High Water Concurrent Users Count?& Re: High Water Concurrent Users Count?& Re: High Water Concurrent Users Count?& Re: High Water Concurrent Users Count?/ Linux will rule Capellas?  I don't think so ... 3 Re: Linux will rule Capellas?  I don't think so ...  Re: Netscape and Mozilla No new Alpha sales Re: Non-interactive TECO? % Re: Non-interactive TECO? (of course)  Re: Powered by HP  Re: Powered by HP  Re: Powered by HP  Re: Powered by HP 3 Re: Scott Stallard, forget your VMS to HP UX dream! + Re: Some more words of wisdom from Capellas 1 Re: SOT: Yo Andrew, you guys on a roll this week?  Re: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Stallards smoking gun! Re: Switching the console mode$ Re: UK folks this might interest you Re: USB on OpenVMS Re: USB on OpenVMS( Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New Company' Re: VMS on http://www.windows-sucks.org 0 Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing?0 Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing? Who cares about marketing! Re: Who cares about marketing! Re: [announce] FreeVMS 0.0.14   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 09:05:36 -06009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) / Subject: Re: Alpha to ia64: where is the issue? 3 Message-ID: <qLNsiHoM696+@eisner.encompasserve.org>   \ In article <3CD914B2.E41B9C58@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > Where is the issue ? > N > The issue is that Compaq lied to customers when it said that Alpha could notM > keep up with IA64 and prematurely killed Alpha, knowing full well that IA64 N > was technologically very inferior and very behind the ramping up compared toM > Alpha which is at a stage in its life where it is well past ensuring it can  > divide properly. > L > In lying to customers, Compaq lost their trust. And now we see through theL > propaganda they try to produce to portray IA64 as "industry standard" when. > even dead, alpha still sells more than IA64.  L If you look back at what Digital did in the 12 months prior to the 1998 sellD out to Compaq, it's pretty clear that the Alpha dump last June was a1 predecessor to the Compaq HP merger of September.   9 "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, Shame on me."     @         You [should] not examine legislation in the light of theD         benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in theF         light of the wrongs it would do and the harm it would cause ifF         improperly administered -- Lyndon Johnson, former President of         the U.S.  1 	26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy 4 	Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 02:45:36 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>- Subject: Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC , Message-ID: <3CDCBE10.4030708@tsoft-inc.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  ? > In article <d7791aa1.0205100706.381b43cb@posting.google.com>, - >  bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes: f > |> JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3CDB8213.7ED70C89@videotron.ca>... > |> > Nic Clews wrote: I > |> > > I certainly hope that the UNIX portability initiatives get equal K > |> > > 'airplay' from the relevant folks, where of course Sun is a target  > |> > > source platform.  > |> >   > |> >  U > |> > The mistake HP made is starting now to tell VMS folks to migrate to Unix, at a R > |> > time when HP doesn't have a unix it can accurately describe. Until HP-UX isS > |> > commercially used on IA64, and until the integration of Tru64 is complete, I K > |> > think that folks will not really care to invest mega money in HP-UX.  > |>  L > |> The mistake HP made is to try to get VMS users to move to any unix, not: > |> just HP UX ... because it just ain't going to happen! > I > It will happen no more than one year from the day HP decides it will no H > longer issue License Paks for VMS.  Unless you figure all those reallyH > big businesses that are still running VMS will be willing to run their< > DP operations on a machine with the clock set back a year. >  > bill  L With the exception of the hobbyist program, and the CSA program, All licenseI PAKs that I've seen are perpetual.  Don't know about the education stuff.     N If you have a VMS system in commercial use, from a licensing perspective, you 0 can run it until after the local star burns out.   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 12:26:16 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> - Subject: Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC , Message-ID: <3CDD4629.9EA4525A@videotron.ca>   David Froble wrote: O > If you have a VMS system in commercial use, from a licensing perspective, you 2 > can run it until after the local star burns out.  N Yep. But it also means that you can no longer purchase software for it becauseM nobody develops for that platform anymore. And you may find it harder to find L qualified people to maintain it. And eventually, you run out of spare parts,V unless you buy stray machines that everyone else is getting rid off to use for spares.  N It also means that all new development is being done on a newwer platform, andL eventually, you will want to migrate the VMS application to the new platformN because the VMS you have doesn't have the brand new proprietary MS-TCPIP stack( needed to communicate with Windows-2135.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 09:23:49 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> - Subject: RE: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEHLEPAA.tom@kednos.com>   = Well, the sky isn't exactly falling.  I have one customer who E is just now migrating from VAX to Alpha, and they expect to run with   that for some years.   >-----Original Message----- 5 >From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca] % >Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 9:26 AM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com. >Subject: Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC >  >  >David Froble wrote:@ >> If you have a VMS system in commercial use, from a licensing  >perspective, you 3 >> can run it until after the local star burns out.  > A >Yep. But it also means that you can no longer purchase software   >for it because @ >nobody develops for that platform anymore. And you may find it  >harder to find A >qualified people to maintain it. And eventually, you run out of  
 >spare parts, A >unless you buy stray machines that everyone else is getting rid   >off to use for spares.  > B >It also means that all new development is being done on a newwer  >platform, andA >eventually, you will want to migrate the VMS application to the  
 >new platform A >because the VMS you have doesn't have the brand new proprietary   >MS-TCPIP stack ) >needed to communicate with Windows-2135.  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). @ >Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002 >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 07:33:41 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)# Subject: Re: Bug in ANALYZE/AUDIT ? 3 Message-ID: <pP3D8.10842$5a4.154788@news.chello.at>   ] In article <abhea9$ejo$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau) writes: J >I posted this a couple of weeks ago but received no response, so I'll tryL >again.  This should be considered a bug report.  If anyone has a workaround >I would like to know.  < No, I don't know a workaround (which you doesn't know also).  J >           CODE=(value,...)       Specifies a specific completion status.  L So, HELP says, that CODE accepts more than one value, but the code does not.8 That's a documentation bug and you should let them know.  B >$ ANAL/AUD/SIN/FUL/OUT=X./IGN=(STATUS=(CODE=%X800,CODE=%XD38064))  F Here, the last occurence of CODE overwrites (all) the previous one(s).  = >$ ANAL/AUD/SIN/FUL/OUT=X./IGN=(STATUS=CODE=(%X800,%XD38064)) C >%DCL-W-ONEVAL, list of values not allowed - check use of comma (,) 
 > \13860964)\   3 And there it shows you, that the HELP/doc is wrong.   E Write a PIR (product improvement request) or like DEC used to say SPR G (software performance report) to suggest that the CODE keyword supports H more than one value (maybe the code does already support it and only the/ DCL definition is wrong - I haven't checked)...    just my 0.02   --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialist  E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 06:08:37 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix< Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205110508.7ed6115@posting.google.com>  g peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) wrote in message news:<PJUC8.5595$5a4.53735@news.chello.at>... j > In article <d7791aa1.0205100914.5b708bc7@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes:j > >peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) wrote in message news:<m8QC8.1749$5a4.19388@news.chello.at>...m > >> In article <d7791aa1.0205090634.3aee3af2@posting.google.com>, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) writes: K > >> >I have been on vms 17+ years now still waiting for my first os crash,  > >>   > >> Try to: > >>   > >> 1) Enable XFC > >> 2) Install&Run PATHWORKS  > >> 3) Install&Run DECnet/OSI > >> 4) Install&Run UCX / > >> 5) any other kernel mode program with bugs  > >>  L > >> and the probability of VMS crashes raises about umpteen thousand if not > >> million percent.  > >>  P > >> Yes, there is no better Opsys than VMS, but it definetely has seen crashes. > >  > >not in my it world yet ...  > >  > >1) do not need xfc  > F > XFC is enabled by default. And if you don't know the warnings (maybeQ > because you were an early adopter of V7.3) then your system would have crashed.  >   @ we are not on 7.3 ... if you live on the cutting edge, sometimes0 you get cut ... maybe you should try that logic!   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 06:15:35 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205110515.6c99e0be@posting.google.com>   ` "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote in message news:<3CDC7B1D.F88BCDF5@fsi.net>... > F > Um (*Sheepish grin*), I had Multinet's SNMPD cause a "BUGCHECK whileC > above ASTDEL" recently. Really caught it from the UN*X-weenies...  > 7 > MNet V4.3A, VMS V7.3 (Alpha, GS160 partition 1 of 2).   B funny, I didn't know accvio's cause bugchecks!  This is on Process Softwares site ...    	 Question:   D Are either MultiNet or TCPware affected by CERT Advisory CA-2002-03A in Many Implementations of the Simple Network Management Protocol   (SNMP), dated February 12, 2002?   Answer:   F These SNMP vulnerabilities do NOT pose security risks for MultiNet andF TCPware. MultiNet V4.4A is not vulnerable to these SNMP issues at all.D MultiNet 4.3A and TCPware have minor problems with access violationsA (resulting in the SNMP process dying), but pose no security risk. C Patches for MultiNet 4.3A and TCPware V5.5-3 are available from the E TCPware ECO Database and the MultiNet ECO database. Use the following 
 kit names:   MultiNet V4.3A: SNMP-020_A043  TCPware V5.5-3: SNMPD_V553P011   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 06:22:41 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205110522.4e8215ad@posting.google.com>   [ peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote in message news:<abhs06$kpr@web.eng.baileynm.com>... 5 > In article <tnAnGQUzgVBh@eisner.encompasserve.org>, . > Rob Young <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:Y > > In article <abgni8$ck@web.eng.baileynm.com>, peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) writes: C > > > In article <d7791aa1.0205090634.3aee3af2@posting.google.com>, / > > > Bob Ceculski <bob@instantwhip.com> wrote: @ > > >> > >>|> The best hackers in the country tried to hack VMS: >   L > > > The best hackers in the country aren't the guys who break into systems" > > > and talk about it at DEFCON. >    > > 	Boulder-dash. >   M > > 	Of the hundreds/thousands that attend DEFCON there are varying levels of E > > 	intelligence and ability.  Maybe the percentage of top talent is @ > > 	in the range of 5%, that would still leave 50 or 100 of the+ > > 	attendees at the truly talented level.  >  > I see. > F > There are 50-100 of the top 5% of the H/P/A/V/C community at DEFCON. > E > So there's not even a significant percentage of the top 5% of that  B > community, let alone the larger hacker community (which includes: > many of the people who design these systems), at DEFCON. > D > And how many of the ones who *are* there, know anything about VMS?  C they were given a crash course before the event ... vms is not hard B to understand, esp. to those at defcon ... and now they have had aA whole year to prepare for defcon10 ... and we will see again that 1 you cannot root a properly configured vms system!    ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 13:39:07 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> < Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix6 Message-ID: <20020511133907.28431.qmail@gacracker.org>  9 On 11 May 2002, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote: 2 >peter@abbnm.com (Peter da Silva) wrote in message* >news:<abhs06$kpr@web.eng.baileynm.com>...   <snip>  G >> There are 50-100 of the top 5% of the H/P/A/V/C community at DEFCON.  >>  F >> So there's not even a significant percentage of the top 5% of that C >> community, let alone the larger hacker community (which includes ; >> many of the people who design these systems), at DEFCON.  >>  E >> And how many of the ones who *are* there, know anything about VMS?  > 4 >they were given a crash course before the event ...  I What crash course? You do realise that you can't learn kernel programming 
 overnight?   >vms is not hardC >to understand, esp. to those at defcon ... and now they have had a B >whole year to prepare for defcon10 ... and we will see again that2 >you cannot root a properly configured vms system!  G Of course you can't root a properly configured VMS system - there is no  root.   G And where exactly do you think the DefCon hackers have been doing their K preparation? I've very little evidence to indicate that anyone on VMSbox is F trying to find expoits, so I'd conclude that the hackers simply aren'tJ interested. We'll see later in the year when its announced that there willC be a VMS system at DefCon 10 if I get more interest from the hacker J community - but I'm sad to say I doubt it. If hackers encountered more VMSK systems on the internet they might take an active interest in the OS, then, / sooner or later, someone would find an exploit.      Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 09:18:33 -06009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) 6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning3 Message-ID: <SP+NWY65QfNY@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <kL9C8.12$ne6.276675@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:sJ > Hmmm.  You must have lost your way and found yourself in a VMS newsgroupN > instead of a Tru64 newsgroup.  The guys on the 3rd floor will be working forN > the next several years to move Tru64 features into HP-UX, and provide a easyL > migration to it from Tru64.  And of course, Tru64 will continue to be sold* > through 2006, and supported much longer. > M > There isn't any "forced migration" of VMS customers to HP-UX, although if aiM > VMS customer wants to move to a UNIX, we will certainly have tools and helpa > for them to move to HP-UX.  L ROTFL! Around our office HP is known as "hourly patches". For two years, oneD of my colleagues installed more HPUX patches EVERY WEEKEND than I'veH installed VMS 7.2 patches in THREE YEARS. We've got VMS, Tru64, and HPUXL boxes side by side. THe only reason we run HPUX is to support apps that onlyK run there. If we wanted to be all HPUX we'd have gotten a lobotomy and donee that to start with.e    IBM is looking better every day.  @         You [should] not examine legislation in the light of theD         benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in theF         light of the wrongs it would do and the harm it would cause ifF         improperly administered -- Lyndon Johnson, former President of         the U.S.  1 	26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamyd4 	Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 05:45:18 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)= Subject: Re: Gartner rides again (was Re: HP Product Roadmap)d= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205110445.30588eff@posting.google.com>/  j djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) wrote in message news:<DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-IieKdQOb8xKT@localhost>...6 > On Thu, 9 May 2002 17:11:45 UTC, "Terry C. Shannon" ! > <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:  >  > > @ > > "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote in message6 > > news:abe4fc$30b$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com...L > > > Who was the fellow that came from Gartner, went to DEC and started theM > > > affinity program?  Forgot his name but when he rode off into the sunsete >  many  > > > said:u > > J > > That would have been Wes Melling. He was the architect of the AffinityP > > Program, one of the most damnfool exercises in self-destruction that the VMS% > > Group ever inflicted upon itself.h > G > I hate to say this but at the time it was first mooted, it seemed to  F > me to be a good idea. I had visions of developing the GUI on NT and H > moving it to VMS V6.??. X/Motif seemed (or so I was led to believe) toF > be a pain. It never happened and our UI is still VT100 esc-sequence  > based.  A but fat or thin clients are not a good solution ... I thought the E same until I found ericoms vt sessions in a browser ... last I talkedtE to them, they said the port was under way to vms and it should be out F by the end of summer, if not by the middle ... this will be a superiorD solution as then it will be alot more simple and efficient to createA your menus in html to drive your vt cell based screens inside the  browser ...    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:44:29 GMT  From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGo/ Subject: Re: High Water Concurrent Users Count? 0 Message-ID: <00A0DC3F.B95EE08D@SendSpamHere.ORG>  o In article <H3ht$jZf2v0L@eisner.encompasserve.org>, kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) writes:2 >$ anal/sys0# >OpenVMS (TM) Alpha system analyzern >SDA> eval sys$gl_ijobcntlG >Hex = FFFFFFFF.8E886508   Decimal = -1903663864         SYS$GL_IJOBCNT  >SDA>  Exit  >$!rI >$!	This remains constant on my system, but is different on each system.  E >$!	YMMV. I evaluate it by hand, then hard code it in the line below.a% >$!	No parsing of output is needed...s >$!B> >$ write sys$output f$cvui(0, 32, f$fao("!AD", 4, %x8E886508)) >233  % $ SYMBOL/SET/EXECUTIVE SYS$GL_IJOBCNTn4 $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "''F$fao("!@UL",SYS$GL_IJOBCNT)'"   ;)   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             s5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" t   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:45:34 GMTl From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG>/ Subject: Re: High Water Concurrent Users Count?r0 Message-ID: <00A0DC3F.E0321486@SendSpamHere.ORG>  L In article <abh6ri$e27$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Ian" <ian@127.0.0.1> writes:" >doesn't f$getsyi("IJOBCNT") work? >  >m   No.a   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM             e5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" o   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 08:31:55 -06009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) / Subject: Re: High Water Concurrent Users Count?h3 Message-ID: <rAWaZHjqW$vv@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  L In article <abh6ri$e27$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Ian" <ian@127.0.0.1> writes:# > doesn't f$getsyi("IJOBCNT") work?t   Nope. At least not in 7.2...  L That will get you a SYSGEN parameter like WSMAX or BALSETCNT, but not one ofI the internal counters kept by VMS. That would be a nice "request" for the- next version of VMS...  @         You [should] not examine legislation in the light of theD         benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in theF         light of the wrongs it would do and the harm it would cause ifF         improperly administered -- Lyndon Johnson, former President of         the U.S.  1 	26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamyt4 	Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 08:33:35 -06009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow),/ Subject: Re: High Water Concurrent Users Count?y3 Message-ID: <cwQ+CA4RPCQC@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  S In article <3CDC41B6.6E9B65CD@UIowa.EDU>, Rick Dyson <Rick-Dyson@UIowa.EDU> writes:rR > Thanks for all the pointers and solution suggestions.  I have a couple differentQ > ways to get the value now and have implemented a simple one to keep writing theeO > max value to a file.  But I guess there is not already this 'high water mark' % > value stored somewhere by VMS then?   H Aparantly not, at least not one I could find. Some sort of process countJ metrics must be kept for Autgen to use as feedback information to raise orF lower process and balance slots. But process and job are not the same.    @         You [should] not examine legislation in the light of theD         benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in theF         light of the wrongs it would do and the harm it would cause ifF         improperly administered -- Lyndon Johnson, former President of         the U.S.  1 	26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamy,4 	Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 06:54:55 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)8 Subject: Linux will rule Capellas?  I don't think so ...= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205110554.3b75cc65@posting.google.com>o  5 this is just one post of text form the almost nonstopr1 security breaches on the linux board ... this onee5 here is using redhat linux ... well Capellas, I guess 2 we should all port immediately to linux ... wrong!   Hi ppl, K LogWatch told me that a user vcsa had been created in my system yesterday. tG What's up? I did upgrade my Redhat from 7.2 to 7.3, did the upgrade do w that?e   JKK  -- C  Moggie@Iki.fi						Moggie@IRCnet/ Official Observer, RFA				Logistics Coordinator L Computers * PSX * Jarre * Abba * Dire Straits/Mark Knopfler * Cats * Linux *+ 		 Open Source * Sitcoms * Sports * Nethack9  Post a follow-up to this message   Message 4 in thread ( From: Luke Vogel (luke@bell-bird.com.au)! Subject: Re: Panic! Who is vcsa? ." Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.security View this article only 2 Date: 2002-05-10 14:45:13 PST   - Jarkko K wrote:1  F > Well, it's got a /dev/sbin/nologin for a shell and it says in passwd? > "virtual console memory owner" so I think the beast is legit.4  D And that is probably _exactly_ what the cracker wants you to think!!  D Ummm ... I cant say that a binary in /dev is legit.  I've never seenD legit binaries in that directory tree, especially in a sub-directory" called sbin/ ... check it out ...   F Just because the file is called nologin doesn't mean that that is whatH it does ... it may well be an attempt to hide the presence of a backdoor into your system.e   -- o Regardss Luke ------ Q:  What does FAQ stand for?? A:  We are Frequently Asked this Question, and we have no idea.n ------< C.O.L.S FAQ - http://www.linuxsecurity.com/docs/colsfaq.html7 Note: Remove NOSPAM from my return address if necessaryr ------  Post a follow-up to this message   Message 5 in thread ) From: Kasper Dupont (kasperd@daimi.au.dk)8! Subject: Re: Panic! Who is vcsa? u" Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.security View this article only n Date: 2002-05-11 02:45:50 PST   / Jarkko K wrote:  > % > Eirik Seim <eirik@mi.uib.no> wrote:r= > > On Fri, 10 May 2002 15:54:34 +0000 (UTC), Jarkko K wrote:g
 > >>  Hi ppl,OP > >>  LogWatch told me that a user vcsa had been created in my system yesterday.L > >>  What's up? I did upgrade my Redhat from 7.2 to 7.3, did the upgrade do > >>  that?e  > I have not yet upgraded to 7.3, so I cannot say that for sure.   > >e > > % whatis vcsa 1 > > vcsa (4)             - virtual console memory    True.r   > > M > > So yes, it could very well be from a system upgrade.  I'd check if it was0P > > disabled with a * in /etc/shadow, and possibly try something like /bin/false > > for shell.  = It would seem rather strange to create a user to own the vcsao; devices. A group would seem more likely, but then again theg: use of tty for that purpose in 7.2 seems more appropriate.   > F > Well, it's got a /dev/sbin/nologin for a shell and it says in passwd? > "virtual console memory owner" so I think the beast is legit.r  > That is indeed very suspicious. If it should have been nologin; it should have been /sbin/nologin, this executable does not,: belong in /dev. Actually the passwd field and uid are more< important, even if it had said /sbin/nologin that executable' could have been replaced with a trojan.n  = I can think of no more likely explanation than a cracker. Tryn> using rpm to verify some packages. (That is not foolproof, rpm could be trojaned as well.)    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:14:12 -0700 " From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>< Subject: Re: Linux will rule Capellas?  I don't think so ...' Message-ID: <3CDD5164.3F807D6@mist.com>l   Bob Ceculski wrote:  > 7 > this is just one post of text form the almost nonstop 3 > security breaches on the linux board ... this one 7 > here is using redhat linux ... well Capellas, I guessd4 > we should all port immediately to linux ... wrong! > 	 > Hi ppl,tL > LogWatch told me that a user vcsa had been created in my system yesterday.H > What's up? I did upgrade my Redhat from 7.2 to 7.3, did the upgrade do > that?l >  > JKKc > --G > Moggie@Iki.fi                                           Moggie@IRCnet2G > Official Observer, RFA                          Logistics CoordinatorpN > Computers * PSX * Jarre * Abba * Dire Straits/Mark Knopfler * Cats * Linux *; >                  Open Source * Sitcoms * Sports * Nethack " > Post a follow-up to this message >  > Message 4 in threads* > From: Luke Vogel (luke@bell-bird.com.au)" > Subject: Re: Panic! Who is vcsa?$ > Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.security > View this article only > Date: 2002-05-10 14:45:13 PSTr >  > Jarkko K wrote:P > H > > Well, it's got a /dev/sbin/nologin for a shell and it says in passwdA > > "virtual console memory owner" so I think the beast is legit.  > F > And that is probably _exactly_ what the cracker wants you to think!! > F > Ummm ... I cant say that a binary in /dev is legit.  I've never seenF > legit binaries in that directory tree, especially in a sub-directory# > called sbin/ ... check it out ...i > H > Just because the file is called nologin doesn't mean that that is whatJ > it does ... it may well be an attempt to hide the presence of a backdoor > into your system.  >  > --	 > Regardst > Luke > ------ > Q:  What does FAQ stand for?A > A:  We are Frequently Asked this Question, and we have no idea.1 > ------> > C.O.L.S FAQ - http://www.linuxsecurity.com/docs/colsfaq.html9 > Note: Remove NOSPAM from my return address if necessary. > ------" > Post a follow-up to this message >  > Message 5 in threadv+ > From: Kasper Dupont (kasperd@daimi.au.dk)b" > Subject: Re: Panic! Who is vcsa?$ > Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.security > View this article only > Date: 2002-05-11 02:45:50 PSTc >  > Jarkko K wrote:a > >m' > > Eirik Seim <eirik@mi.uib.no> wrote:r? > > > On Fri, 10 May 2002 15:54:34 +0000 (UTC), Jarkko K wrote:o > > >>  Hi ppl, R > > >>  LogWatch told me that a user vcsa had been created in my system yesterday.N > > >>  What's up? I did upgrade my Redhat from 7.2 to 7.3, did the upgrade do
 > > >>  that?  > @ > I have not yet upgraded to 7.3, so I cannot say that for sure. >  > > >  > > > % whatis vcsat3 > > > vcsa (4)             - virtual console memoryo >  > True.l >  > > > O > > > So yes, it could very well be from a system upgrade.  I'd check if it wasoR > > > disabled with a * in /etc/shadow, and possibly try something like /bin/false > > > for shell. > ? > It would seem rather strange to create a user to own the vcsa = > devices. A group would seem more likely, but then again theo< > use of tty for that purpose in 7.2 seems more appropriate. >  > >lH > > Well, it's got a /dev/sbin/nologin for a shell and it says in passwdA > > "virtual console memory owner" so I think the beast is legit.  > @ > That is indeed very suspicious. If it should have been nologin= > it should have been /sbin/nologin, this executable does notd< > belong in /dev. Actually the passwd field and uid are more> > important, even if it had said /sbin/nologin that executable) > could have been replaced with a trojan.M > ? > I can think of no more likely explanation than a cracker. Try-@ > using rpm to verify some packages. (That is not foolproof, rpm > could be trojaned as well.)0  + Can you tell me which linux board this is??a   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:06:47 +0100 1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>n! Subject: Re: Netscape and MozillaT6 Message-ID: <3CDD4FA7.6B0B1837@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  F I'm a bit late to this party, but I'm fairly happy with the choices on Alpha.  F I'm writing this using Netscape v3.03 which is quite happy.  I've alsoE got Mozilla 0.9.7 which is happy too and lets me view the CUO Virtual 
 Community.  C Mozilla is hungry for memory, but it works adequately on a DEC 3000 G model 600 workstation I have access to with 160MB physical memory usingd	 VMS v7.3.h  D Both options are a great deal better than the PC offerings that I've experienced.  A A vote of thanks to those that have done the porting work to VMS.o   Steve.       Craig A. Berry wrote:e > = > In article <01KH0VD3T0HE8ZE7FO@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, = >  Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote:r >  > > Carl Perkins said: > >cC > > > In this particular case, it sounds more like a poorly writteno > > > piece of software. > > >nG > > > If you need to let it use >200MB of RAM to work well, my question A > > > is what the heck is is actually doing with all that memory?y > C > Somehow in this long, hand-wringing thread, no one has thought to I > mention the obvious, namely that the only versions of Mozilla availableiF > so far are development releases.  More than likely there are variousG > internal debugging sections that will not be compiled in the releasedfB > version.  At least until recently, Mozilla was being linked withI > traceback on.  I don't know whether the builds they've been putting outhH > have compiler optimization or debugging enabled, but it would be quiteE > surprising (and downright strange) if the development releases madeaG > available for debugging purposes did not have at least some debuggingD > capabilities.i > J > > Think of it this way.  All of VMS(!) is a few hundred MB.  Compare the9 > > functionality of all of VMS to that of a web browser!s > C > Compile VMS from source using /noopt/debug.  Link everything withg? > /traceback.  Hardwire SET WATCH to be on at all times for allwB > processes.  Then compare the memory requirements and performanceH > characteristics of VMS with the beta versions of Mozilla that everyone > is complaining about.o > F > Yes, I would like Mozilla on VMS to be faster, but it seems silly toI > expect a build created expressly for debugging purposes to perform likerI > a final release.  RC1 seems a bit snappier to me but I haven't done anym > real measurements on it.   --  G "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent likelE a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath.MA Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'" % 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"U   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:32:38 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: No new Alpha salese, Message-ID: <3CDD55B4.128575AF@videotron.ca>  I I just realised the impact of the policy by HP to immediatly send all newlD customers to HO-UX on PA-RISC and keep Alpha for existing customers.  L In the past, the VMS engineers were bragging here about how VMS continued toN get new customers. And this influx of new customers would reduce the impact ofM customers leaving VMS. And Marcello's short lived renaissance proved that you-4 could turn VMS around with a small marketing budget.  L However, if HP is to steer all new customers to HP-UX, even to PA-RISC untilN IA64 is commercially viable, that would leave VMS without any new customers atQ least until it is commercially viable on IA64 (eg: speed is not a joke vs Alpha).t  M If, for the next 3-4 years, VMS gets no new sales, combined with the messages J that HP is sending to the remaining VMS customers, wouldn't that give HP'sI accountants the right ammunition to write a report stating that VMS is nob> longer profitable/viable and could/should/must be terminated ?  M Note that for accountants, they don't want to wait until the previous years'saM number show VMS didn't make a profit. They will probably project a date wheretH they expect VMS to no longer be profitable and then make sure that it is killed beforehand.  J Because of this, HP may very well decided to kill VMS before it is given a( chance to attract new customers on IA64.  M After all, exsiting customers will want to stay on the faster Alpha and won'taM be in a hurry to migrate to IA64. So if HP doesn't market VMS,  sales on IA64e9 will be dismal and again, another opportunity to kill it.   J VMS is set to fail. Until IA64 is commercially viable and fast enough,  HP, must allow sales of Alphas to new customers.  L When you put all the stuff together, it is a too carefully constructed multiN faceted plan to be considered just a "mistake".  HP clearly has a strategy for VMS, and it isn't one we like.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:04:51 GMTe1 From: CSABA  HARANGOZO   <csabah@zipworld.com.au>v" Subject: Re: Non-interactive TECO?7 Message-ID: <TF8D8.1677$06.216758@nasal.pacific.net.au>a  + Ingemar Olson <IOLSON@dairyland.com> wrote:m@ > I would like to use TECO's built-in file conversion capability7 > (from VFC/print cc  to variable/CR cc) in a com file.n  ) > It works like a hot-damn interactively:r > $ edit/teco <filename> > *EX<esc><esc>( > $ % >  and it's converted my file. Magic!(  @ > But I can't figure out how I can get it to work in a com file.   	Have you tried :l    	$ DEFINE SYS$INPUT  SYS$COMMAND 	$ EDIT/TECO  <filename>
 	EX<esc><esc>c 	$  < 	( Make sure that you insert real escape characters into the, 	command file to terminate the EX command. )   	Try it, it might work...g 						Cheers,   Csabas  I    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- E    * Csaba I. Harangozo     |    'To err is human', said the hedgehog!E    * csabah@zipworld.com.au |           as he dismounted a wirebrush.uI    ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:-          7 > I've tried it with: /command=<a file containing "EX">nA >          and       /execute=<same file>                 (no go)e  M > The help refers to the PDP-11 TECO Editor Reference Manual but of course I s  > neither have nor can find one.  1 > Does anyone know whether this is even possible?m > And how to do it!n   > TIA ... Ingemarc    I    ----------------------------------------------------------------------sE    * Csaba I. Harangozo     |    'To err is human', said the hedgehog-E    * csabah@zipworld.com.au |           as he dismounted a wirebrush.sI    ----------------------------------------------------------------------t;    EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:n   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 15:50:15 +0100 ' From: Elliott Roper <elliott@yrl.co.uk>o. Subject: Re: Non-interactive TECO? (of course)2 Message-ID: <110520021550154228%elliott@yrl.co.uk>  @ Yesterday I offered a teco macro for fixing crlfs on a wild card. filspec from a .com. It had a bugette on exit.1 As promised, the improved macro is (fix_crlf.tec) # hxahken^eqa$<:en$;:eb^eq*$;ec$>ex$$e  B called as before from a command file (fix_crlf.com) which contains $mung = "$teco32 mung" $mung fix_crlf.tec,'p1'    byC @fix_crlf.com *.mem (or whatever it was that RNO used to screw up.)   E I forgot that en$ delivers a null filespec before failing on the nextdB pass. Adding a conditional to the eb and another break" ;" when it fails does the trick.0  C I've been biting my tongue during the EVE v EDT debate about globall replace routines. So far...   B By simply inserting <fnstr1$str2;> just before the ec in the aboveF macro you get the whole wild carded global replace from a command file? that consumed so many bytes of internet over the last few days.i   ..damn! I couldn't resist!  F Teco takes a while to learn. After that, you don't type nearly as many; characters of commands to get the job done. Using the same hF "mung teco_macro_file,text" trick, it should be fairly easy to pass inE str1 and str2 from the command line. Not that you would bother. Afterf? becoming a teco user, you would rather write teco than DCL. ;-)k   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 07:10:19 -0500j& From: "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@arrl.net> Subject: Re: Powered by HP8 Message-ID: <3cdd0a33$0$1414$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net>  K That was the "forever" I was referring to a few notes back.  And a previous K poster's note on this is like sending letters to members of Congress get me,I remembering yet another quote from Mark Twain.  "Consider the idiot.  Nowl5 consider a member of Congress.  But I repeat myself."e  J I'm liking this guy more and more each day.  And thanks to VMS for sending" this book of Twain's quotes to us.   Dave...)  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message.< news:ZP%C8.137933$v7.12434191@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com... > > > "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote in message- > news:abh9aa$k38$1@fizban.pprd.abbott.com...eI > > My opinion.  Don't wait for a group to form to craft a message to them > powers > > that be at hp.  Do it now.E > > Most everyone here has similar thoughts on this subject.  While aa > collectiveH > > message sounds good, it'll take longer than forever to get the thing "out > > the door". >fD > Besides, some of us already tried the 'well-thought-out collective message'K > approach, two years ago.  Failed completely.  At least if people just let J > their feelings be known individually, not nearly as much time and effort > will be wasted.  >m > - bill >( >e >l   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 07:12:59 -0500u& From: "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@arrl.net> Subject: Re: Powered by HP8 Message-ID: <3cdd0ad2$0$1416$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net>  L Or maybe ridding the world of the Open in OpenVMS.  Just another thought....   Dave...s  1 "Bill Hobbs" <bdhobbs18@acm.org> wrote in messageh7 news:74ca5032.0205101738.3a890a11@posting.google.com...t< > "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in messageL news:<92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C401@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us >...F > > I agree, now how do we start?  We have folks with strong technical	 opinions,dK > > someone with media access (Hi Terry), and a user groups like Encompass,u orD > > DECUS at our disposal.  We also could probably recruit the folks handling > > the openvms.org site.t >,F > I wonder if HP could be convinced to resurrect the Digital name as a+ > wholly owned company.  Just a thought ...m   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 07:04:10 -0500 & From: "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@arrl.net> Subject: Re: Powered by HP8 Message-ID: <3cdd08c1$0$1409$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net>  B Thanks Ken.  And just a footnote to all this.  I've already had an interesting emaileK dialogue with Scott Stallard on VMS.  Seems like a good guy to me from what: I can tell fromaJ his replies.  The more he and other hp powers that be hear on the subject, the better IMO.y   Dave...t  6 "Kenneth Farmer" <kfarmer@farmer.org> wrote in message9 news:Lq%C8.61409$gd5.25266752@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...u< > "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in message >tL news:92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C401@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us. > ..F > > I agree, now how do we start?  We have folks with strong technical > opinions,lK > > someone with media access (Hi Terry), and a user groups like Encompass,o orD > > DECUS at our disposal.  We also could probably recruit the folks handling > > the openvms.org site.k > >b
 > > --> EdI > > **Please apply a generous amount of all the usual disclaimers here.**  > >  >s >t > Ed,/ >nE > I have put up a forum on OpenVMS.org.  Anyone is welcome to place aw comment J > in this forum (as long as they remain civil).  The comments will then be4 > viewable by all, including HP's command structure. > K > Folks.  If your going to leave a comment say something that will help theoJ > cause.  I can assure you they are more likely to be visiting OpenVMS.orgL > then reading the newsgroups, don't spoil the opportunity to speak directly0 > to the management (mid-level managers anyway). >. > <soapbox> I > Also, just to let you know, I will not allow the forum to be used for a-C > constant, nonstop (sorry, that just came out) barrage of insults.s	 Remember, G > Logical arguments are much harder to ignore, and they WILL ignore the  forum6 > if it becomes hostile. > </soapbox> > K > I would like to see it became a repository of testimonials promoting VMS.eK > You will then be able to point Scott Stallard or whomever directly to the G > forum where an archive can be read.  I would post as few responses as F > possible and make each comment a new topic.  Much easier to read and follow.  >t& > Here is your chance to build a case: >t, > http://www.openvms.org/phorum/list.php?f=4 >  >  > Ken  >  > -- >I > Kenneth Farmer > http://www.Tru64.org > http://www.OpenVMS.org > http://www.LinuxHPTC.com >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 14:00:18 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>* Subject: Re: Powered by HPI Message-ID: <St9D8.46089$GLp1.31749@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   I Not a bad idea, but.....who is going to write the $88+k USD cheque to the: WSJ for the full page ad?   @ Not to be glib, but do you have cheque-signing authority in your, organization for some or all of that amount?  > I can sign a cheque to make a small contribution towards that.  J Unfortunately, one cannot mention profitability in an ad like that even ifI we believe that it's 99.999999% true - because Carly controls the numberst1 she can make them say anything she wants them to./  C Nor can one say that they lied when they said they had support from,I customers in doing what they have done - even one exception disproves the  rule.c  K Stick to what is defensible - ie. we collectively have billions invested intJ server-side apps (mostly custom stuff) that would have to be re-engineeredF to move to any other o/s. If that's what HP considers to be helpful toJ corporate customers, they they can kiss those customer's business goodbye, permanently.  D One thing for HP to remember:  Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM.        : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3CDC9B20.21963696@videotron.ca... > Robert Deininger wrote:DK > > Carly and Mike have a lot on their plate for the forseeable future, ands weK > > have to admit that VMS is a pretty small part of the whole HP pie.  TheSK > > only sane way for them to treat a small business like VMS is to rely on 8 > > the advice and wisdom of their lower-level managers. >oH > I am not 100% sure about that. Next monday start the rounds of layoffs that > will last 6 to 9 months. > F > Carly, Curly, Winkler and the gang have set out a very clear product roadmap,J > and for any manager to go and tell them it isn't right would increase of their  > losing their job.s > F > At this pont in time, the most effective way to reach Carly woudl be through  > the media and advertising. > K > Imagine the effect of VMS customers purchasing a full page ad in the Wall/F > Street Journal with a letter addressed to Carly explaining the great	 potentialdJ > of VMS, mentioning its high profitability, and how its dismissal brought downF > both Digital and Compaq and that she should take a close look at its	 potentialrG > not only to grow and expand, but also to make HP far more profitable.e >aL > Carly would have to take notice, especially if the letter were signed by a fewg > very large VMS customers.r >uH > Heck, one might go further and if there is support from customers even mention C > how HP and Compaq lied when they said they had support from their 
 customers.   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 08:54:27 -06009 From: kaplow_r@eisner.encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow)f< Subject: Re: Scott Stallard, forget your VMS to HP UX dream!3 Message-ID: <G6JsIOwTurWB@eisner.encompasserve.org>   q In article <yoaC8.18$ki6.476181@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:a > K > If you are thinking of leaving VMS for UNIX, then by all means we want toaL > try to make HP-UX the UNIX you move to.  But nobody is suggesting that anyL > VMS user "should" move to another OS, unless that is what they want to do. > + > http://www.compaq.com/hps/commitment.htmlg  J My colleagues have experience with many flavors of UNIX: Tru64, HPUX, AIX,K Solaris. It is pretty clear to me that if we are forced to migrate from anyoJ traditional DEC platform, it will NOT be to HPUX. It's the worst of the 4, with Tru64 being the best.  J Perhaps the "new HP" should be talking about migrating their HPUX users to Tru64.    @         You [should] not examine legislation in the light of theD         benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in theF         light of the wrongs it would do and the harm it would cause ifF         improperly administered -- Lyndon Johnson, former President of         the U.S.  1 	26-October, 2001: A day that will live in infamyi4 	Support Freedom: http://www.indefenseoffreedom.org/   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 18:23:05 +0100 1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>l4 Subject: Re: Some more words of wisdom from Capellas6 Message-ID: <3CDD6189.68CBD01A@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>   Interesting Andrew.   D Although it's a few months since I talked to a DBA, last I heard wasH that Oracle was developed on Sun OS, the precursor to Solaris.  As such,F the Solaris version itself is a port of the source code.  Earlier than, the VMS one, yes.  But nevertheless, a port.   The reason?t  B Apparently it's so that the lowest common denominator is easier to achieve.   Steve.      ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: >  > Alan Greig wrote:e > 5 > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/25142.htmld > >t% > > Some quotes from Curly yesterday:i > >sP > > HP in the past has been seen as a kind of amorphous blob, asked one analyst./ > > What can you do to clarify that perception?b > >sN > > "We're driving the move to standards-based computing across the board," he > > replied. > >wO > > In response to a question "What does Compaq stand for?", Capellas answered:r > >uQ > > "We've got to be the first go-to-market partner Intel, the first go-to-marketaR > > partner for Oracle and the first go-to-market partner for Microsoft," he said. > >s > 1 > Mikey needs to get a bit closer to his partnersp > before spouting this.o > 5 > Oracle is devloped on Sun Solaris and given Compaqsn5 > market share with them no one could describe Compaqt0 > as the first-go-to-market partner with Oracle. > 6 > Being first to market with Intel and MS is a dubious5 > accolade which most people would consider best kepth  > quiet rather than broadcasted. > 	 > Regardsw > Andrew Harrisono   -- nG "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent like,E a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath..A Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'"v% 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"a   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 11:12:38 +0100A From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> : Subject: Re: SOT: Yo Andrew, you guys on a roll this week?) Message-ID: <3CDCEE97.88C127C1@Omond.net>t   rob kas wrote:   > > Your cache drop a bit? >e >    No More then XFSr   [...*huge* snip...]e  < Sheesh ... 273 lines of quoted stuff just to add a one-linerA that doesn't even make any sense (grammatically or semantically).a  ' Please retake the course in netiquette.u   Miffed,i  	 Roy Omondy Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 11:44:29 +0000 (UTC)n From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk# Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!a+ Message-ID: <abj06t$8o5$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>m  \ In article <3CDC2FD3.633AB951@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:? >Just read the famous PDF containing the STallard damning text.  >gM >What I found interesting is the wording used to specify that VMS developmentoF >will continue ON ALPHASERVERS until 2006. And very separately, almost< >deemphasized, it is stated that the port to IA64 continues. >rS >If HP had long term intentions with VMS, they would have worded something such as:bJ >"We plan to continue to provide new versions on ALPHA servers until 2006,7 >after which new versions will appear only on Itanium".  >eU >It sesms to me that HP doesn't really have any intentions to productize VMS on IA64.r  M Of course another way of reading that might be that HP isn't quite so sure oflI IA64 anymore. Maybe none of their systems will appear only on Itanium. :)A   Have they explicitly stated :-  K "We plan to continue to provide new versions on PA-RISC servers until 200x,t? after which new versions of HP-UX will appear only on Itanium".e      
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 05:49:17 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)# Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!.= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205110449.26e260fe@posting.google.com>8  a JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3CDC9976.DA0D77D1@videotron.ca>...e > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:cP > > Some might argue that the only replacement product (in the HPQ portfolio) is > > NSK. Just a thought... > N > I brought that up a long time ago. A certain percentage of VMS sites will beO > forced to go to NSK because Unix won't have the reliability needed, while them > rest will go Unix. > H > VMS didn't fill a gap between two product lines, it sat on their laps. > P > From the "accountant" point of view, eliminating VMS makes sense. But from theP > visionary point of view, eliminating a product with great profit potential andC > great market differentiator and great quality doesn't make sense.-  C they are not going to eliminate vms!  the commitment has been made!d@ this was all about waking up Scott Stallard so he understands usF vms customers, and that we will not be porting to unix.  The statement@ could have been made because a few holdover morons want to port,B but I believe he has gotton the message from the others ... he didG from me!  The merger is iver, the letter was true, the support and port 0 will continue.  Get a grip man and face reality!   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 12:55:18 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>m# Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!n6 Message-ID: <20020511125518.26826.qmail@gacracker.org>  9 On 11 May 2002, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote: 9 >JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in messager) >news:<3CDC9976.DA0D77D1@videotron.ca>...r >> "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:C >> > Some might argue that the only replacement product (in the HPQT >> > portfolio) is >> > NSK. Just a thought...  >> -O >> I brought that up a long time ago. A certain percentage of VMS sites will be P >> forced to go to NSK because Unix won't have the reliability needed, while the >> rest will go Unix.2 >> iI >> VMS didn't fill a gap between two product lines, it sat on their laps.l >> dH >> From the "accountant" point of view, eliminating VMS makes sense. But >> from theiC >> visionary point of view, eliminating a product with great profite >> potential andE >> great market differentiator and great quality doesn't make sense. f >cD >they are not going to eliminate vms!  the commitment has been made!  H Problem is, commitments have been made in the past and then broken. ManyK people in the newsgroup (and doubtless many existing VMS customers too) aret1 looking for actions to back up these commitments.g  A >this was all about waking up Scott Stallard so he understands usrG >vms customers, and that we will not be porting to unix.  The statementeA >could have been made because a few holdover morons want to port, C >but I believe he has gotton the message from the others ... he didiH >from me!  The merger is iver, the letter was true, the support and port1 >will continue.  Get a grip man and face reality!n  K Suggesting that someone "get a grip" is really rich coming from you. Plus I H hate to think what Scott Stallard thought if he got an email in the same style as you post here.f     Doc. -- a6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.netr   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 05:59:48 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)# Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!I= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205110459.504bb4e3@posting.google.com>n   "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com> wrote in message news:<92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642C3F0@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us>... L > You could send the folks at Compaq an email like Dave suggested in anotherN > thread.  I sent my feelings to RM and got a response from Mark Gorham the VPJ > of OpenVMS.  His response was that they are in the process of fixing theN > messages.  I'm going to wait and see what happens, but it felt good to get aI > response.  Remember how successful the SUN users were in getting SUN to@N > re-think its position regarding Solaris on Intel?  If we, OpenVMS advocates,I > want to get the message to the owner of OpenVMS then we should send theeI > message to them, and encourage others who feel the same way (like other M > Encompass members) to also get the message to them rather than just posting G > to the newsgroups.  There are only a few folks that post to the group-L > regularly. We need each of us to let the folks at HP know what they can doJ > to market OpenVMS better, and how it will benefit their bottom line.  In? > other words, don't just complain, but also bring suggestions.e >  > Ed >-  E I have, along w/posting my feelings here ... as for your other point, E as well as many others on this board, why do I care so much about theDE the mis-marketing of vms?  if hp like Q wants to keep quiet about thewE best os on the planet, then let them.  Why should I care.  As long asBB I have my support, and modest product development, and the itaniumE port, and alpha support thru 2011, why should I care?  If every othernB fool wants to run their enterprise on windoze/unix/linux, let themC crash and burn.  I will survive the coming virus storm.  I will run E 99.9999 w/the best clustering, security, shadowing and reliability in F the business ... who cares about marketing?  Those who know the secretE of vms will be very happy.  If HP is happy w/modest vms profits and ad4 losing wintel business, then so be it ... who cares?   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 13:14:52 -00004 From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]># Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!06 Message-ID: <20020511131452.27565.qmail@gacracker.org>  9 On 11 May 2002, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote:e   <snip>  F >I have, along w/posting my feelings here ... as for your other point,F >as well as many others on this board, why do I care so much about the >the mis-marketing of vms?  H Once again... This is a *newsgroup*, or even a mailing list. It is not a board.  + >if hp like Q wants to keep quiet about the : >best os on the planet, then let them.  Why should I care.  E You should care because without marketing the VMS installed base will<J slowly decline. Without a healthy installed base there is no justification1 for spending on the OS and it will be terminated.    >As long aseC >I have my support, and modest product development, and the itaniumoF >port, and alpha support thru 2011, why should I care?  If every otherC >fool wants to run their enterprise on windoze/unix/linux, let themcD >crash and burn.  I will survive the coming virus storm.  I will runF >99.9999 w/the best clustering, security, shadowing and reliability inG >the business ... who cares about marketing?  Those who know the secretA >of vms will be very happy.   F IT SHOULDN'T BE A BLOODY SECRET! If it was common knowledge then thereH wouldn't be the wailing and gnashing of teeth in this newsgroup, because# lots more people would be using it.t  * >If HP is happy w/modest vms profits and a5 >losing wintel business, then so be it ... who cares?e  J Look what happened to Digital. Look what happened to Compaq. See what willJ happen to HP, and figure out where that leaves VMS. Things have to change,K and the sooner the better. If you're satisfied with the status quo then why ) are you bothering to pester people at HP?o     Doc. -- i6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net/   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 14:25:06 GMTs# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>a# Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!eI Message-ID: <6R9D8.46274$GLp1.26939@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>f  < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message& news:L5ZC8.20613$WR1.7321@sccrnsc01... >e >iL > If that was the case, why would they continue with the port (which is justL > about a done deal anyhow)? Once VMS is on IA64, at least the option exists > to leverage the product. >/  F Okay Terry, let's assume that your thesis is correct.....why not startJ leveraging the product now with new customers while they still have Alpha,E which outperforms other hardware. Presumably there will be mixed-modeeD clustering when VMS/IA64 arrives just in the same way that VAX-Alpha9 mixed-mode clusters existed, so what's the downside here?   K Buy Alpha-VMS now and until IA64 arrives - by the time IA64 has performancef; parity, customers will have the option to mix-mode cluster.   L The other way to look at it is that corporate America recyles hardware everyF 3-5 years, depending on financing and tax strategies, so by the time aG usable IA64 system is on the market, it'll be time to retire older gearwI anyway. In the meantime, HP keeps existing VMS customers and sells to newp: VMS customers, thus increasing the value of the franchise.  F All it takes is a few words to come from Carly's mouth in a completelyK public way - Wall Street Journal, a keynote address at a major trade show -f something along the lines of,i  L  "VMS is here to stay. OpenVMS is a robust mission-critical operating systemL with many unique features required in today's security-concious environment.K HP is 100% commited to enhancing VMS and expanding OpenVMS's marketshare in G all areas of business, both on Alpha today and IA64 in the future. Some J customers prefer unix, others prefer VMS, others NSK - HP does not pretendJ to know what's best for its customers, hence it is in our best interest inL providing our customers with the best choices available from any vendor.  HPB will not be following a policy of forced migration to unix for VMSH customers. HP will do everything in its power to ensure that our OpenVMSH customers have all the systems and tools at their disposal to succeed in their chosen environment."  H That would just about do it for me....how about you?  Unless, of course,  that's not what they want to do.  L (also seems to me like Carly should pay me big bucks for that little speech,K which will save her $3-4B in revenue each year - whadda ya think?....$117MMeI sounds about fair to me - small unmarked bills in a brown bag over by theu sandbox will do)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 12:45:57 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> # Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!d, Message-ID: <3CDD4AC4.57894F6C@videotron.ca>   Bob Ceculski wrote:sE > they are not going to eliminate vms!  the commitment has been made!eB > this was all about waking up Scott Stallard so he understands us9 > vms customers, and that we will not be porting to unix.y  K Has HP made a public statement reversing it public statements by both carly N and stallard to the effect that HP expects its customers to migrate to HP-UX ?  N Has it ever occured to you that Stallard is just sending you words you want toG hear, but that he will continue to implement the roadmap set out by his. superiors ?   E Similar letters had been sent to that <censored> Winkler, and he onceeN responded "I have seen religion" indicating that he would be more sensitive toH VMS in the future. Couple of weeks later he was at it again, saying that3 Windows would expand to the datacentre etc etc etc.V  J If it isn't from Carly in public, then it isn't something you can bet your
 business on. b  H Stallard may be responding to reduce the impact of his statement, not to% indicate that the policy has changed.p  F We've been fooled by those promises of "don't worry, VMS will be takenM seriously from now on" or "Compaq will focus on enterprise systems and you'llhN see enterprise advertising" etc etc etc for over a decade now. Never happened.  L And we've also seen many letters stating "don't worry, we are committed 100%M to Alpha" over the years, yet on June 25, they had no problems implementing a - policy that must have been sety years before.   M In light of the MPE and Alpha murders, HP would have known that VMS customerseI would be very touchy. Yet, Carly purpusefully avoids mentioning VMS for 8 M months, and now, last week, unveils a product roadmap "package" that includesh% that Stallard invitation to dump VMS.   N Stallard's memo *might* have been a mistake. But Carly's purposefully avoidingM mentioning VMS over 8 months wasn't.  Carly's mention of Tandem running stockvL exchanges, but not mentioning anything about VMS running stock exchanges etc wasn't a mistake either. D  D Just like Compaq wasn't interested in buying VMS and Alpha, HP isn'tD interested in VMS and alpha. At least they are quite clear about it.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 17:11:22 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net># Subject: Re: Stallards smoking gun!nA Message-ID: <_gcD8.14942$eV5.1380527@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>'  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC news:6R9D8.46274$GLp1.26939@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...:   ...   A > Buy Alpha-VMS now and until IA64 arrives - by the time IA64 has1 performancet= > parity, customers will have the option to mix-mode cluster.a >hH > The other way to look at it is that corporate America recyles hardware every H > 3-5 years, depending on financing and tax strategies, so by the time aI > usable IA64 system is on the market, it'll be time to retire older gearsK > anyway. In the meantime, HP keeps existing VMS customers and sells to new < > VMS customers, thus increasing the value of the franchise.  I Of course that makes sense.  It makes just as much sense as all the othero2 suggestions that have been ignored over the years.  G The problem is that it doesn't fit with the 'big picture' that the head E idiots have drawn:  PH-UX for everything but short-term HPTC use (and H Windows/Linux for *all* use eventually).  That's all they see and (thinkG they) understand; everything else is just 'noise' that shouldn't affecteK their high-level decision making (since they have far more important things. to do).e   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 05:13:30 +0200m2 From: martin@radiogaga.harz.de (Martin Vorlaender)' Subject: Re: Switching the console mode.; Message-ID: <3cdc8c5a.524144494f47414741@radiogaga.harz.de>v  B Craig A. Berry (craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com) wrote:- > bart@CTI01.COMVERSE.COM (Steve Bart) wrote:0E > > 	Can someone tell me how to switch the console mode from one modeuJ > > to the other when you do not have access to the console in the currentG > > mode? In other words, if I have a system (in this case a DS10) with H > > the console set to graphics, but for whatever reason I cannot accessB > > the system via that connection, how can I change it to serial? ...l: > try unplugging the keyboard and rebooting; some systems E > automatically default to serial if there is no keyboard plugged in a9 > (though I don't know for sure the DS10 is one of them).l  C I seem to remember that more recent Alphas switch to serial mode if6B they sense no graphics device attached in the self-tests. So, alsoD try to unplug the monitor. Like Craig, I'm not sure whether the DS10 is one of them.i   cu,e   Martin -- nB                         | Martin Vorlaender | VMS & WNT programmer1  OpenVMS: Where do you  | work: mv@pdv-systeme.deRD  want to BE today?      |   http://www.pdv-systeme.de/users/martinv/8                         | home: martin@radiogaga.harz.de   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 18:06:13 +0100p1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>r- Subject: Re: UK folks this might interest youl6 Message-ID: <3CDD5D95.7BB29EC5@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>  H I even had an interview Wolverhampton and Dudley Breweries at one point!  D TheInquirer were not the first people to think of the meeting on theF 28th as a demonstration that CUO-UK could run a p*** up in a brewery -B the CUO-UK team that organized it were thinking of it as that when discussing it!  :-)R  D side note:  Although both the HP Reading site and the brewery are onG Imperial Way, there's now a big roundabout and dual carriageway betweendH the two so you don't _have_ to go past DEC Park (oops, the Reading Site)H in order to get there.  You get an excellent view of the multistorey car park though.....   Steve R.E (who did not contribute to the organization, but will be there on thee 28th)o      ! Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:D > 	 > Me too!v > # > Wolverhampton and Dudley Brewery.o > L > And to bring it back on topic, they are, or were 4 or 5 years ago, big VMS > users. >  > Cheers > 	 > Steve S    -- hG "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent likeoE a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath. A Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'" % 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 08:54:50 +0200r From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMS & Message-ID: <3CDCC03A.9060904@home.nl>  H It seems this device is no longer sold by Logitech. However the present  trackball with wheel support:t: http://www.logitech.com/cf/products/productoverview.cfm/89C is sold with a USB -> PS2 adapter, so that it can be used with PS2 rF connections. The third button by the way, is activated by pushing the $ wheel. It doubles as a click-button.     Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > Got the spec on it?d > : > Dirk Munk wrote in message <3CDAE4FC.6070409@home.nl>... > J >>I am using a Logitech TrackMan Marble+ PS2 mouse on my PC. 3 buttons andB >>a mousewheel. Works fine ! I'm using a similar Trackball without >>mousewheel on my PWS.r >> >>Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >>J >>>No.  I added it only for USB.  It was easy, it's just another axis on a >>>pointing device.2 >>>@L >>>I've never seen the spec for a PS2 thumbwheel mouse, or if it is possible >> > to > J >>>detect it's presence (as opposed to any other type of mouse).  The PS-2 >>>mouse design was abysmal. >>>e >>>  >>>c; >>>Dirk Munk wrote in message <3CDA47D9.8010403@home.nl>...t >>>o >>>. >>>>Fred Kleinsorge wrote: >>>> >>>>/ >>>>>Eh?  What's a two-cylinder VSXXX-AA mouse?  >>>>>rK >>>>>The mouse will be a standard 3-button USB mouse.  As an added bonus, I> >>>> >>>put >>>2 >>>iE >>>>>support for the thumbwheel in for anyone that wants to plug in aa >>>>
 >>>thumbwheelh >>>c >>>n >>>>>mouse.i >>>>I >>>>Does this mean I can connect a thumbweel mouse to the ps-2 port of myl1 >>>>PWS500 too ? From which version VMS / Motif ?lH >>>>That would be very nice, I could scroll through the messages in this >>>>newsgroup. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>e >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 09:05:36 +0200h From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Re: USB on OpenVMSu& Message-ID: <3CDCC2C0.9040100@home.nl>  H So far I found one product with the Lucent chipset, and that is the ADS  USB Turbo Quad 4.  http://www.adstech.comI Nice thing with this chipset is that there are 4 independant USB busses, m8 so it will get your four USB controllers instead of one.  H Will DCPS be suported on USB printers as well? that would be very nice, H because we could buy a cheap Postscipt printer and connect it. Ethernet D connections for these printers are usualy relatively very expensive.   Forrest Kenney wrote:gF >     The history of USB and OpenVMS where it has been and where it is- > going.  There has been an ongoing effort to J > get USB into OpenVMS.  The original plan was to support it with the DS10) > ES40 platform.  As part of this work weuG > built and for a limited time supplied a USB kit for a V7.2 code base.-2 > This code was also demonstrated at the San DecusJ > in 1999.  At that time the plan was to ship full support for USB as part- > of V7.3.  But plans changed for a number ofo' > reasons and the work was put on hold.u > L >     When it was obvious that some of the new  platforms would not have any( > of the legacy ISA I/O devices work wasK > restarted and the code was dug out of mothballs.  We recently finished up * > all the work that we know of to make USBB > viable on these new platforms.  Officially only the embedded USB2 > controllers on these platforms are supported andI > only for keyboards and mice.  All of the supported code is checked intop. > the version that is presently in field test. > J >     In addition support for keyboards, mice, we are shipping drivers for. > printers and cables that conform the the USBH > printer standard.  We also have support for modems that conform to the/ > communications class standard.  These are not J > going to be listed as supported because we did not have the resources to3 > test and qualify devices for this relase.  PleasesI > feel free to use them and report problems but don't be surprised if youa/ > get a these are not supported answer from thee > support organizations. > 0 >     What is not supported at the present time: > ; >               1) UHCI controllers, or USB 2.0 controllerslI >               2) Any random OHCI based controllers.  We have tested andn& > had good luck with ones based on theL >                   Lucent USS344 chip and Symbios 6080.  We have tried some( > other with varying degrees of success.+ >               3) Customer written driversa >  > Forrest Kenney > OpenVMS USB project leader >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 15:50:04 GMTn( From: spam@devnull.com (Russell Wallace)1 Subject: Re: VMS Bigots Unite To Form New Company 0 Message-ID: <3cdd3d4f.179359818@news.eircom.net>  E On 10 May 2002 19:16:51 +0800, Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>u wrote:  D >They buy what they can get, and that is what the 'computer', ie PC,C >shop has or can get a a good margin. Note that Linux is a half-wayeD >house, flush doze but still on a PC. Don't read figures, go talk to' >the people who are running this stuff.   < I have. People _don't care_ about reliability. I've tried an experiment a couple of times:s  6 Person: "Damn Windows crashed again!" *grouse, grouse*E Me: "There are things you can do to improve its reliability. I've gothC my Windows 98 machine to the point where it only crashes once everya couple months or so."nC Person: "Oh that's very interesting. Nice weather we've been havingm lately, isn't it?"   --  3 "Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."o! http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace  mail:rw(at)eircom(dot)neto   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 16:33:19 +0100 1 From: Steve Reece <SYSTEM@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>w0 Subject: Re: VMS on http://www.windows-sucks.org5 Message-ID: <3CDD47CF.8D1B136@ipl.demon.co.nospam.uk>l   Doc,   Well done on the article.h  - There's also the web site www.compaqusers.orgn  G This is the Virtual Community web site for the Compaq User Organisatione
 in Europe.C CUO-UK have their forthcoming meetings posted there and members can 7 contribute to the user forums (fora??) on the site too.    Steve.     Doc.Cypher wrote:l >  >  Useful Linksh > : >  comp.os.vms - The newsgroup for all things VMS related. >  OpenVMS.org >  The OpenVMS FAQ >  VMS Product Documentation! >  VMS at the University of Texas! >  "Unhackable" VMS at DefCon 9t >  PicoVAX Emulator  >  > Doc. > --8 > The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.M > ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.netl   -- sG "A shadow fell over her face; clear, as if the composure were rent likehE a veil.  And her lips parted, but only with a short intake of breath.eA Then she said, 'Well, then you are right.  Indeed, we are even.'".% 		Louis, "Interview with the Vampire"o   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 13:43:19 +0200 ? From: "Bo Hermanson" <informentor.hermanson@mailbox.swipnet.se>l9 Subject: Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing?e6 Message-ID: <KA7D8.4411$iB4.12044@nntpserver.swip.net>  I Well, ask him what's the time it will take to make a write (or read) whenl one critical disk crashes? :)   @ And ask him what's the business cost and expected user feedback?   Regardsn Bo    7 "Lawrence Bleau" <bleau@umtof.umd.edu> wrote in messageW* news:abhgj8$fej$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...G > Thanks, Jan-Erik, for a look "under the hood" of host-based shadowing J > operations.  I can see why it speeds things up for reads, and why writesH > might not slow down as much as expected, even if on the same scsi bus. >tJ > >On short, the VMS shadowing is very effective. Of course everything canD > >be measured, but in practical use, you'd be hard to see any majorD > >differense. Probably the better *read* performance will outweight* > >the slightly worse *write* performance. > >,B > >Couple this with the ease-of-management of VMS-shadowing, there0 > >is realy no reason *not* to shadow your disk. >uK > Well, not from a technical point of view.  From management, however, it'stH > still a battle, since it's a new concept to the one in charge, and hisJ > initial model is that of something that takes twice as long.  I'm in theF > position of *disproving* that model, hopefully by presenting another model,K > and convincing my boss that the new model is the correct one.  Even if hetL > agrees it looks reasonable, he's the type that'll want evidence, either upI > front or immediately after reconfiguration.  So I'm wondering how to go K > about testing this.  My initial tests give me results that look horrible,s0 > and do not help the case for shadowing at all. >y > Lawrence Bleau > University of Maryland$ > Physics Dept., Space Physics Group > 301-405-6223 > bleau@umtof.umd.edua   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 06:36:09 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)9 Subject: Re: What is good model for disk i/o w/shadowing? < Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205110536.65840bf@posting.google.com>  b bleau@umtof.umd.edu (Lawrence Bleau) wrote in message news:<abhgj8$fej$1@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>...G > Thanks, Jan-Erik, for a look "under the hood" of host-based shadowingSJ > operations.  I can see why it speeds things up for reads, and why writesH > might not slow down as much as expected, even if on the same scsi bus. > J > >On short, the VMS shadowing is very effective. Of course everything canD > >be measured, but in practical use, you'd be hard to see any majorD > >differense. Probably the better *read* performance will outweight* > >the slightly worse *write* performance. > >aB > >Couple this with the ease-of-management of VMS-shadowing, there0 > >is realy no reason *not* to shadow your disk. > K > Well, not from a technical point of view.  From management, however, it'smH > still a battle, since it's a new concept to the one in charge, and hisJ > initial model is that of something that takes twice as long.  I'm in theM > position of *disproving* that model, hopefully by presenting another model,sK > and convincing my boss that the new model is the correct one.  Even if he,L > agrees it looks reasonable, he's the type that'll want evidence, either upI > front or immediately after reconfiguration.  So I'm wondering how to goaK > about testing this.  My initial tests give me results that look horrible,u0 > and do not help the case for shadowing at all. >  > Lawrence Bleau > University of Maryland$ > Physics Dept., Space Physics Group > 301-405-6223 > bleau@umtof.umd.eduo  @ get him on a conference call w/the vms group at hp ... they will= explain it to him over the phone ... if you want a real test,fA get a 30 day free trial license from hp and try it!  Like I said,wA we use it on 7.1, you set it and forget it, and it works, and youC don't notice the difference!   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 06:02:04 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)# Subject: Who cares about marketing!c= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205110502.1a22e1ed@posting.google.com>,  < The more I think about this, why do I care so much about theA mis-marketing of vms?  if hp like Q wants to keep quiet about the E best os on the planet, then let them.  Why should I care.  As long asaB I have my support, and modest product development, and the itaniumE port, and alpha support thru 2011, why should I care?  If every otheriB fool wants to run their enterprise on windoze/unix/linux, let themC crash and burn.  I will survive the coming virus storm.  I will runrE 99.9999 w/the best clustering, security, shadowing and reliability in F the business ... who cares about marketing?  Those who know the secretE of vms will be very happy.  If HP is happy w/modest vms profits and ab4 losing wintel business, then so be it ... who cares?   ------------------------------    Date: 11 May 2002 13:24:04 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>s' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing!e6 Message-ID: <20020511132404.27903.qmail@gacracker.org>  9 On 11 May 2002, bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) wrote:h   <snip>   Re: Who cares about marketing?  I I've addressed the most obvious answer to your post already, i.e. without G marketing VMS will simply die slowly. With marketing the installed baseDB will expand, new ISVs will be attracted and increase the availableG applications, and the 2011 figure you keep touting won't be when the OS1G stops shipping (BTW, I think even that is an optimistic guess if policyi) with regards to VMS continues unchanged).f  H Anyway, didn't you notice that the lack of marketing is one of the areas= where the majority of people in the newsgroup actually agree?e     Doc. -- r6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------  + Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 07:16:03 +0000 (UTC)d9 From: Roar =?iso-8859-1?Q?Thron=E6s?= <roart@nvg.ntnu.no>o& Subject: Re: [announce] FreeVMS 0.0.14- Message-ID: <abigfj$fu1$1@tyfon.itea.ntnu.no>   0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:  D : If I possessed the required skills, I would be very happy to help.   What skills do you have, btw?H  ' Do you count enough time as a skill? :)(   -- i
 -Roar Throns    ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.260 ************************