1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 17 May 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 271       Contents:$ Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC$ RE: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 8 Re: Comments on ITUG/DECUS joint Euro conference in Lyon8 Re: Comments on ITUG/DECUS joint Euro conference in Lyon$ Re: DCL symbol substitution question# Re: File sizes from lib$file_scan ? - Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning - Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning  Re: FTP queue ?  Re: FTP queue ? 0 Hey, anyone notice that Netscape is different???4 Re: Hey, anyone notice that Netscape is different???+ HP is like Q ... just doesn't get it proof! ( Re: internet address on a Decserver 90TL( Re: internet address on a Decserver 90TL ISE just spammed me... Re: ISE just spammed me... Re: ISE just spammed me... Re: ISE just spammed me... Re: ISE just spammed me... RE: ISE just spammed me... Island - the best pricesP Re: Let go of VMS for the good of your career? (was "Re: System manager availablP Re: Let go of VMS for the good of your career? (was "Re: System manager availablP Re: Let go of VMS for the good of your career? (was "Re: System manager availablP Re: Let go of VMS for the good of your career? (was "Re: System manager availabl Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales0 Re: Problem with the internal clock of an XP1000 Re: scsi cluster Re: TCP/IP for VMS...HELP! Re: TCP/IP for VMS...HELP! US Government 'endorses' VMS0 vax/alpha print to hp laser printers help needed4 Re: vax/alpha print to hp laser printers help needed4 Re: vax/alpha print to hp laser printers help needed4 Re: vax/alpha print to hp laser printers help needed< RE: VMS 7.3 upgrade problems - a bad workman blaming his too< Re: VMS 7.3 upgrade problems - a bad workman blaming his too? Re: VMS 7.3 upgrade problems - a bad workman blaming his tools?  Re: Who cares about marketing! Re: Who cares about marketing! Re: Who cares about marketing! Re: Worth a readP Re: [Q]  How do you set the SQO bit in the FAB (FAB, RAB, which field has this b  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:54:19 +0000 (UTC) 5 From: "Bill Sticker" <NOSPAMPLEASE@SPAMSTOPPER.CO.UK> - Subject: Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC / Message-ID: <ac12pb$1th$1@paris.btinternet.com>   ? > Well, the sky isn't exactly falling.  I have one customer who F > is just now migrating from VAX to Alpha, and they expect to run with > that for some years. > ( You cant get me a job with them can you?   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 13:11:13 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> - Subject: RE: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEACFAAA.tom@kednos.com>   9 Probably not, since you didn't understand to send this as < private mail rather than to the newsgroup.  But in any event< send me your CV and I will forward it, but send it directly.   >-----Original Message----- ; >From: Bill Sticker [mailto:NOSPAMPLEASE@SPAMSTOPPER.CO.UK] & >Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 12:54 PM >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com. >Subject: Re: Bob Palmer and the demise of DEC >  >  > @ >> Well, the sky isn't exactly falling.  I have one customer whoG >> is just now migrating from VAX to Alpha, and they expect to run with  >> that for some years.  >>) >You cant get me a job with them can you?  >  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). @ >Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002 >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).? Version: 6.0.360 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/2002    ------------------------------    Date: 17 May 2002 01:01:02 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix0 Message-ID: <87offgrprl.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  ( Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes:  E > The problem comes when someone else is caching the data. How do you H > cope. Do you manage cache coherency on a per IO basis or on a per file > basis.  @ Neither. Although VMS clusters are described as a shared storageC system, really they are a shared nothing system. They do not share, B they co-ordinate. So, all the drives on a HSC or HSJ on the CI are  *local* disks for ALL the hosts.  F In your caching example, the access is co-ordinated by the DistributedG Lock Manager (DLM) on an 'as needed' basis. This could range from none, : to several per IO depending on the exact state and timing.  A > If you try to do it on a per IO basis, then every read or write B > needs to check, so you loose the advantage of local caching. YouE > could minimise this to only impacting writes I guess but that would A > require all systems to maintain a cache directory for the whole 
 > cluster.  : No, only if you no longer 'own' the required access to theF resource. So a burst of IO will often complete with only a single trip to the disk.   F > If you do it on a per file basis, it's much easier. At open time youE > check whether you are the only node accessing the file, or that all E > nodes accessing are only open for reading, in this case there is no @ > problem with caching at both ends. However once a node opens aF > shared file for writes then the caching needs to be done in just oneF > place, or as above checking for conflicts needs to be performed on aA > per IO basis, or write only basis with a local cache directory.   C Yes, but it is in reality worse than you describe, as there are all D sorts of 'details' in extending, truncating etc that must be totally
 right always.   C > Sorry I don't know how VMS tackles these issues, it has been more D > years than I care to remember since I used a VMS cluster, and backE > then had no idea how an OS worked. I'm sure VMS clusters have moved " > on a long way since then anyway.  > They are very much as they where then, but with LOTS of detailE changes. IE, there is no longer a master directory. Now all the nodes D build their own copy of the 'directory vector' so they can determineD locally which node is the default master of a resource. As each nodeC executes the identical code, all the vectors are identical. If not, ( the Fat Owl will dump on your console ;)   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:01:43 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix@ Message-ID: <rmTE8.8339$Yg7.1234786@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  9 "Paul Repacholi" <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote in message * news:87offgrprl.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com...   ...   9 > Although VMS clusters are described as a shared storage E > system, really they are a shared nothing system. They do not share, D > they co-ordinate. So, all the drives on a HSC or HSJ on the CI are" > *local* disks for ALL the hosts.  I I'm afraid the description above is what most of the industry (IME) calls K 'shared storage', since each host has direct physical access to the storage D (analogous to the shared memory in an SMP) and shares it essentiallyE concurrently.  'Shared-nothing' usually refers to a system where each J storage unit (and each unit of everything else, like memory) is private toJ some host and accessible only through that host (even though that host mayI export it for shared use as VMS exports MSCP devices - which is sometimes  called pseudo-shared storage).   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 16 May 2002 12:37:01 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205161137.10b05055@posting.google.com>    Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<ac0dt9$f3a$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...  > Bob Ceculski wrote:  > e > > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message news:<3CDC104D.938DB683@videotron.ca>...  > >  > >>Bob Ceculski wrote:  > >>K > >>>it already has survived, and I would say that jstars, miltary, DOD, US L > >>>gov use, Cerner, Pitts. Super Computing and the list goes on and on areN > >>>the reason vms will survive ... MPE was 16 bit, neglected, no clustering, > >>> L > >>Consider some recent "super computing" deal that HP signed, promising toP > >>deliver a super machine with over 1000 CPus based on IA64. Sounds to me thatM > >>HP isn't even interested in selling Alphas NOW, they prefer to delay cash ' > >>input until IA64 is actually ready.  > >>N > >>Secondly, jstarts, military etc are just like existing MPE customers: theyP > >>will continue to receive support. They do not mean that VMS will continue to > >>be developped. > >> > > E > > the only tools vms needs are in place ... "C" and Java and Apache E > > (html,xml) are in place ... anything can now be ported w/relative C > > ease from unix/linux ... 3rd party vendors/shareware will take  H > > over from here ... ports have already begun, esp. java (BEA,Ericom)! > >  > # > No BEA is actually a bad example.  > E > WLS is available but OpenVMS support lags other platforms and other C > BEA ecommerce products do not run on OpenVMS meaning that you are H > unlikely to pick up any platform business if you are in an environment8 > where other BEA products are required appart from WLS. > 	 > Regards  > Andrew Harrison   A we are talking web platform here ... other services can be found   elsewhere or written ...   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:13:47 +0100 & From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix* Message-ID: <3CE412FB.1C3D18E0@kgcc.co.uk>   Paul Repacholi wrote:   * > Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> writes: > G > > The problem comes when someone else is caching the data. How do you J > > cope. Do you manage cache coherency on a per IO basis or on a per file
 > > basis. > B > Neither. Although VMS clusters are described as a shared storageE > system, really they are a shared nothing system. They do not share, D > they co-ordinate. So, all the drives on a HSC or HSJ on the CI are" > *local* disks for ALL the hosts.  H The problem with coherence isn't affected by whether the disks are localH to one system or to all, the problem is that if multiple copies exist in the D memory of the members of the cluster how do you ensure if one memberB modifies all the other members invalidate their copies atomically.  F Sorry I haven't had time to give Bill's highly informative posting due@ thought. I think he's largely answered my question. Although I'd( like to carry some of the discussion on.   >  > H > In your caching example, the access is co-ordinated by the DistributedI > Lock Manager (DLM) on an 'as needed' basis. This could range from none, < > to several per IO depending on the exact state and timing. > C > > If you try to do it on a per IO basis, then every read or write D > > needs to check, so you loose the advantage of local caching. YouG > > could minimise this to only impacting writes I guess but that would C > > require all systems to maintain a cache directory for the whole  > > cluster. > < > No, only if you no longer 'own' the required access to theH > resource. So a burst of IO will often complete with only a single trip > to the disk. >   F It's a question of how the DLM keeps track, and when nodes effectively need to check with the DLM.    > H > > If you do it on a per file basis, it's much easier. At open time youG > > check whether you are the only node accessing the file, or that all G > > nodes accessing are only open for reading, in this case there is no B > > problem with caching at both ends. However once a node opens aH > > shared file for writes then the caching needs to be done in just oneH > > place, or as above checking for conflicts needs to be performed on aC > > per IO basis, or write only basis with a local cache directory.  > E > Yes, but it is in reality worse than you describe, as there are all F > sorts of 'details' in extending, truncating etc that must be totally > right always.  >   J In the DUX model, once concurrent access, with at least one writer, startsE (it used the idea of opened with write enabled) then caching was only 	 performed K on the system that physically had the disk. In the shared disk access model   G of the HSC... etc, of XPs with FC, or multi initiator SCSI... what ever H then I guess it's upto the DLM to decide where best to cache, the serverC local, client remote model of DUX  ( or I guess LAVC, is that still  around?)1 then I guess it's easier to decide on who caches.   H Anyway, who's caching doesn't much matter. The point was only one systemH cached, that way there can be no coherency trouble, but clients see long access
 latencies.  K Truncating doesn't affect this, it can be considered as just like any other  write.K On Unix, files can be sparse, I seem to remember that VMS' view of files is   J somewhat different, so I have no idea whether it supports sparse files, if not / Then I guess truncates are a different problem.    > E > > Sorry I don't know how VMS tackles these issues, it has been more F > > years than I care to remember since I used a VMS cluster, and backG > > then had no idea how an OS worked. I'm sure VMS clusters have moved $ > > on a long way since then anyway. > @ > They are very much as they where then, but with LOTS of detailG > changes. IE, there is no longer a master directory. Now all the nodes F > build their own copy of the 'directory vector' so they can determineF > locally which node is the default master of a resource. As each nodeE > executes the identical code, all the vectors are identical. If not, * > the Fat Owl will dump on your console ;) >  > --> > Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,9 > +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. B >                                              West Australia 60760 > Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked. >    Cheers   Ken   H > EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.  < ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^K Well I guess we've got about 3 weeks to wait to find out. If McKinley flies   E there might be a future for HP-UX (now incorporating True64) and VMS. K If it doesn't I guess we have a choice of learning Solaris, AIX or Windows.   J (I love Linux but like most people, I still haven't worked out how to make it pay for my food).    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:26:26 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)A Subject: Re: Comments on ITUG/DECUS joint Euro conference in Lyon I Message-ID: <rdeininger-1605022026270001@1cust2.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   E In article <wFQE8.8684$ah_.779@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, $ "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:  K >*** (added comment) The big question is whether HP is be doing ANYTHING to L >actively STIMULATE demand of VMS, whether on Alpha today or IA64 in several >years.   H Yes, there are folks at HP who are actively promoting VMS.  Some of themA worked for Digital and Compaq for years; some of them worked in a + competing company a little over a week ago.   L >"We expect [customer demand] to exist for at least several years beyond theL >2004 introduction of EV79-based AlphaServers," Stallard said. Since the NewK >HP will continue to support HP AlphaServers for at least five years beyondnJ >their final sales date, customers can be sure that their Alpha investment/ >will be protected well into the next decade. "r  D >*** (added comment) Nice about the support for Alpha for at least 5B >additional years...that sort of thing is also mandated by federalK >regulations, so HP isn't really going out of its way to be nice guys here.r >eG >*** (added comment) But where are Stallard's comments about giving theC: >marketing of VMS some prominence in the HP constellation?  C I don't think Scott has finished digesting the large meal of CompaqgG divisions that he ingested last week.  It will take the HP organization,E some time to learn what's going on in the Compaq business units.  TheaG integration team provided a pretty coarse picture of Compaq's confusing 2 operations.  VMS is NOT a big piece of the new HP.  I I think the Compaq folks working on integration before the merger broughtm@ some Compaq baggage with them.  A lot of Compaq middle and upperA management did not believe, or would not admit, that VMS was verysG important.  They likely brought that sentiment to the "clean room" with  them to some extent.    G Now folks like Scott Stallard and Ann Livermore and the people who work I with them will form their own opinions of the merits of the various partsiG of Compaq they inherited.  It appears to me that both of them, and manyaF others, will try to promote and grow anything that seems to be working1 well for HP.  Give them some time to sort it out.p   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:07:17 -0400s- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>sA Subject: Re: Comments on ITUG/DECUS joint Euro conference in Lyonp, Message-ID: <3CE465D0.96ACB542@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:aI > Now folks like Scott Stallard and Ann Livermore and the people who workPK > with them will form their own opinions of the merits of the various parts!I > of Compaq they inherited.  It appears to me that both of them, and manyeH > others, will try to promote and grow anything that seems to be working3 > well for HP.  Give them some time to sort it out.   J They have had 8 months to sort it out. They published their famous productL roadmap on week 1. It had whatever statements they wanted for VMS. Now, theyJ want to revise that roadmap without telling anyone to hide the evidence of their original gaffe.t  K The problem is that customers looked at it on week 1 and aren't going to go L back to look at it every week to try to see what else has changed secretely.  K If HP wants to revise its roadmap, let it admit it publicly and outline the-L changes to customers so that they know that something has changed since weekL 1. Otherwise customers continue to assume that the product roadmap of week 1 continues to be in effect.  O WHY IS IT SO BLOODY HARD FOR HP TO SAY CLEARLY WHAT IT WANTS WITH VMS ?????????e  L They've had no problems outlining clearly what they intend to do with HP-UX, and the wintel business.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:59:08 GMT-6 From: "Andy Bustamante" <A_C_Bustamante@earthlink.net>- Subject: Re: DCL symbol substitution questionlD Message-ID: <0RWE8.2820$Vq6.258269@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>   Mark,sL Give me a call at ext 8, 6653.  There are better ways of exporting/archiving# data from this particular database.u   -- Andy Bustamante 
 Micro Generali Remove the ASCII 95s to replyc      5 "Mark Jensen" <markje@vistainfo.com> wrote in messagei. news:R3BE8.80207$vm6.15015645@ruti.visi.com...L > I'm writing a little tool that allows our support staff to create flatfileJ > archives of data.  To do this I simply assign sys$output to a temp file, doI > a sql display to get the data, deassign sys$output, then read each lineh fromK > the temp file into a symbol and write append from that into the flatfile,h > one line at a time.- > H > The two problems I'm running into is one, something is transforming myG > data's single quotes into double quotes, then (problem two) recursiveeC > substitutions are mucking up the empty single quotes by trying to.	 transformy* > the text after it as a symbol.  Example:D > The data in the symbol often has something like "<FIELD Name="BOB" > Override="" />"-1 > That becomes "<FIELD Name='BOB' Override='' />" H > Which then becomes "<FIELD Name='BOB' Override= />", stripping out the > double single-quoatations.@ > Which is a bad thing, as poor data integrity sometimes can be. >nG > Here's a code snippet.  Can anyone tell me how to only substitute thec symbol1 > once?  It's a string literal so I can't amp it.e >c' > $ read/end=CLOSEINPUT INPUT NAMESLINEa > $ deassign sys$output ( > $ assign /user 'WIZARDTEMP' sys$outputB > $!Order in NAMESLINE: wWIZCOMP, wNAME, wLEVEL, wRESOURCE, wAGENT< > $ if (f$edit(NAMESLINE,"trim").eqs."") then goto READINPUTG > $! Commas are allowed in a wizard name, so cannot use f$element...use,( > f$extract since fields are fixed width' > $ wWIZCOMP = f$extract(0,1,NAMESLINE)'/ > $ wNAME = """"+f$extract(2,32,NAMESLINE)+""""p& > $ wLEVEL = f$extract(35,1,NAMESLINE)E > $ wRESOURCE = """"+f$element(0,".",f$extract(37,34,NAMESLINE))+""""r@ > $ wAGENT = """"+f$edit(f$extract(72,12,NAMESLINE),"trim")+""""E > $ sql display wizards sequence, wizard where wizcomp='wWIZCOMP' and ( > name='wNAME' and blah blah blah *snip*# > $ open/read WIZINPUT 'WIZARDTEMP'l > $ READWIZARDTEMP: , > $ read/end=CLOSEWIZINPUT WIZINPUT TEMPLINEK > $! the record is 396 bytes fixed, the first six are the sequence field, 6t > bytes ( > $ TEMPLINE = f$extract(6,400,TEMPLINE)D > $! split into two 200 byte strings to evade the DCL 255 byte limit+ > $ TEMPSTRING1 = f$extract(0,200,TEMPLINE)c- > $ TEMPSTRING2 = f$extract(200,200,TEMPLINE)  > $! append to the text file% > $ write WIZARCHIVE "''TEMPSTRING1'"e% > $ write WIZARCHIVE "''TEMPSTRING2'"  > $ TEMPSTRING1="" > $ TEMPSTRING2="" > $ TEMPLINE=""a > $ goto READWIZARDTEMPt >e >  >b	 > Thanks, 
 > Mark Jensenb > FNIS >i >o >    ------------------------------    Date: 17 May 2002 02:36:45 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>, Subject: Re: File sizes from lib$file_scan ?0 Message-ID: <87g00srlc2.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  / Peter Harding <harding@herald.ox.ac.uk> writes:r  B > To cut a long story hopefully not too short, in the file-handler  > called by lib$file_scan I have  e > size = xabfhc->xab$l_ebk > alloc = fab->fab$l_alq  cC > which often, but not always, gets the same answer as DIR/SIZ=ALL.S   - > What can I do to make them more consistent?r  ? Do you have a off by one error in some cases? The `end-of-file'oA is traced as the first free byte. If the block has filled, so the @ next byte is `byte 512', it can be recorded as last-block:512 or> next-block:0 The 512 or 0 comes from the xab$b_ffb cell and is. the only case where you need to fiddle things.   --  < Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda. @                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:31:36 GMTe4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning0 Message-ID: <3CE415ED.61F36E27@blueyonder.co.uk>  8 > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote in message ... >  > >e@ > >We have just been asked to replace an OpenVMS based system at= > >a customers site (cluster 7.3 GS140's) guess why ?????????g > >e > >Downtimet > >e     9 hmmm, I suppose they were using 15k/annum just graduated 9 staff like the rest of the IT industry seems to be doing.e  0 Competant sysadmins ARE still required with VMS.   Regards,     -- r tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk p  F * tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address will cease to work June 2002 *   ------------------------------    Date: 16 May 2002 16:31:06 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205161531.626f5220@posting.google.com>h   Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message news:<ac0ekd$f3a$4@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>...- > Dave Gudewicz wrote: > P > > Good catch Bill.  And *if* the XFC was their problem, then shame on them for+ > > not turning it off like most here know.a > >  >  > " > XFC was not one of the problems. > 	 > Regardse > Andrew Harrisonr >   - no, in this case it sounds like stupidity ...e   ------------------------------    Date: 17 May 2002 02:30:07 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: FTP queue ?0 Message-ID: <87k7q4rln4.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>  N winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:  K > But couldn't you just create an ordinary batch queue and submit jobs liket  S0 > $! COMMAND PROCEDURE TO FTP FROM HITHER TO YON- > $ COPY/FTP HITHER:[...]*.*;* YON.DOMAIN.TLDi  n2 > and have all the queue manager goodies you want?  
 ::cought::  A RSX, FTS. (File Transfer Spooler) Are we enjoying the 70s yet? :)h   -- h< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.l@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:43:36 +0200n From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> Subject: Re: FTP queue ?& Message-ID: <3CE40BE8.1030507@home.nl>   Paul Repacholi wrote:r  O >winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:  >rK >>But couldn't you just create an ordinary batch queue and submit jobs like  >> >  >c0 >>$! COMMAND PROCEDURE TO FTP FROM HITHER TO YON- >>$ COPY/FTP HITHER:[...]*.*;* YON.DOMAIN.TLD  >> >  >m2 >>and have all the queue manager goodies you want? >> >  >::cought::  >kB >RSX, FTS. (File Transfer Spooler) Are we enjoying the 70s yet? :) >E  H My idea too !! There were more things in RSX that I would have liked to  have seen in VMS at that time.   >.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:28:29 -0400-! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>a9 Subject: Hey, anyone notice that Netscape is different???u' Message-ID: <3CE3FA4D.1069BF44@vcu.edu>   F it spins off a browser window when you first fire it up in messenger?  this is new, and unwanted..r  2 of course, I'd left autoupdates active...  blah...   it's off now..   jim    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:29:41 -0400n! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> = Subject: Re: Hey, anyone notice that Netscape is different??? ' Message-ID: <3CE3FA94.66932B48@vcu.edu>r  C I'm not really asking for help, mind you all, but warning my fellow  vmsers of this..  H now even Netscape has joined ie in letting funky things happen.. mozilla anyone??   Jim Agnew wrote: > G > it spins off a browser window when you first fire it up in messenger?t > this is new, and unwanted..h > 4 > of course, I'd left autoupdates active...  blah... >  > it's off now.. >  > jimo   ------------------------------    Date: 16 May 2002 12:49:48 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski)4 Subject: HP is like Q ... just doesn't get it proof!= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205161149.736f2b79@posting.google.com>.  = This proves HP is on the same road as Q ... they already have : the worlds most reliable platform, Alpha/OpenVMS, and here< they are going to go out and blow more money uselessly using< unix as a base and lose more money and fail ... what morons!    * NEC, HP team up to build reliable systems   $ By Kuriko Miyake and Stephen Lawson  May 16, 2002 5:19 am PTY   >  NEC AND HEWLETT-PACKARD have joined to set up alternatives toE mainframes for mission-critical operations in large corporations, the D companies said in a memorandum of understanding announced Wednesday.  ? The companies aim to provide large-scale systems with full-timewE availability, primarily based on HP Unix servers but also bringing ineD other infrastructure elements, including third-party components such8 as Cisco routers, said Jochi Yasuhito of NEC's corporateE communications division. The systems may also involve platforms othereB than Unix, he added. Hardware platforms will include ones based on% Intel and on NEC processors, he said.   E In addition, the companies will create a new product that includes HPdC server hardware running NEC's OpenDiosa middleware for running highlF availability applications on non-mainframe servers. The companies planB to offer the product this year both in and outside Japan, YasuhitoA said. The partnership also will leverage HP's Utility Data Center C technology, designed to help enterprises automate and better managetD their data centers, and its Integrated Service Management system for= streamlined service delivery, according to a statement by thee
 companies.  C The Tokyo company and the Palo Alto, Calif., company have been in aaB product-reselling alliance since 1995. Their ultimate goal for theC next three years will be to build these mission-critical systems ateB 100 global companies, said Toshiro Kawamura, vice president of NEC
 Solutions.  @ They will initially look for customers in the financial service,E telecommunication and manufacturing industries in the U.S. and Japan, 7 and have started several joint projects, Kawamura said.d  E In the second phase, by the second quarter of next year, they plan tosD expand their targeted clients from Japan and the U.S. to other parts0 of Asia and eventually worldwide, Kawamura said.  F The tie-up includes marketing, system integration and customer support	 services.I  E Large-scale mainframe-based systems still exist at many corporations,uD Kawamura said. But when mergers occur, it is difficult and costly to% integrate different systems, he said.   C NEC and HP say that the need to rebuild those companies' systems onkA open platforms is rapidly increasing, and they hope to become the * global leaders in the new market, he said.  D NEC brings to the equation its capabilities in both open systems andC mainframes, and it looks to HP as the leader in the "post-mainframeeF era" because of its core Unix strengths, according to an HP statement.  B "The mainframe market is dominated by IBM, however, we are talkingB about creating a whole different market here," Kawamura said. ThisF means creating a "post-mainframe-era market", which would be difficultA for one company to do but possible for an alliance like this one,9 Kawamura said.  @ "HP has a complete product line by merger with Compaq," said AnnF Livermore, executive vice president of HP Services, attending the newsF conference via video from New York. "Therefore, HP and IBM now are the: only two companies with a complete portfolio of products."  A In Japan, the two have already worked on an integrated system for3C Sumitomo Mitsui Banking, which is the product of a recent merger oft= two banks. They are also developing a system for NTT DoCoMo's'F next-generation I-mode wireless Internet service, using 500 HP servers- to process 50,000 e-mail messages per second.    ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:35:11 -0400-2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)1 Subject: Re: internet address on a Decserver 90TLjI Message-ID: <rdeininger-1605022035110001@1cust2.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   C In article <jmclachlan-C0C9FB.09321716052002@news.draper.com>, Johnt/ McLachlan <jmclachlan@nospam.draper.com> wrote:e    P >First problem - VMS is dead.  I loved it, but no one is buying them, no one is  >using them.    F The above statements are all false.  Well, except maybe the part about your loving it.r   VMS is not dead.  1 Folks are buying "them".  (VMS and alpha systems)    Folks are using them.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:40:56 -0400p( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>1 Subject: Re: internet address on a Decserver 90TLs, Message-ID: <3CE45FA8.5080601@tsoft-inc.com>   John McLachlan wrote:r  # >>This is not an "Experts" problem.iK >>I am disgusted at the lack of knowledge that people who are being chargedr/ >>with control of VMS systems these days, have.i >> > ! > Should I be offended???   hmmmm     Q No, as you mention below, once something is set up, it just keeps working.  I've tS done many things that I would have to re-think should I need to address them again.t     > First problem - VMS is dead.    O You cannot back up this statement.  If you can buy a new system, then I'd like oQ to know your definition of 'dead', which will definitely not match my definition.?  ( > I loved it, but no one is buying them,    R Seems that you're wrong once again.  All it takes is one, and I know at least one.   > no one is 
 > using them.a    M Now I should ask whether I should be offended.  Guess I'm no-one.  Guess the  M White House doesn't have any office automation.  Guess there isn't a J-Stars c system.  The list could go on.  D   This system I'm asking on itself is being replaced with a PC in a Q > years time.   There is no way we're going to hire a proper admin to babysit an e# > albatross.  (sorry, that's life).r    M But, you're going to need one or more to babysit that PC.  If your statement tO below is at all accurate, then why would you exchange a perfectly adequate and eN working solution for a PC.  Even the most ardent PC fan will have to admit to G the need for babysitting a PC system.  The periodic re-boots, and such.d  J I can see one problem.  The maintenance for the VMS system, if such is in M effect, will continue to rise as the system ages.  However, a new Alpha will -N alleviate that problem.  Too expensive you might say?  How many days will you M pay babysitters for the PC before that extra expense is bypassed, and you'll L0 need the babysitters as long as you have the PC.  * Somebody has probably made a bad decision.    R > Second problem - VMS was such a good system, it doesn't NEED someone to babysit S > it.  This isn't a UNIX or PC machine that needs a guru aroudn to fis problems.   e" > There haven't BEEN any problems.    J So, this is the system chosen to be replaced.  Is your company publically J traded.  I don't think I want to hold any of their stock.  Bad management.    R > This server itself.  I configured it 9 YEARS ago, threw it under the floor, and Q > it's been a good doobie ever since!  now that's quality.  Just because I can't lE > remember commands from 9 years ago, don't burst a blood vessle. :-)e    L I'm not.  Some are less tolerant.  They'll learn in time that tolerance and  patience is a better way.e       Dave   ------------------------------    Date: 16 May 2002 13:47:26 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) Subject: ISE just spammed me...i3 Message-ID: <5LjU9KSbUiwM@eisner.encompasserve.org>h  K Has anyone else just got spammed by ISE offering some kind of VMS product ?O  E They must have manually de-spammed my E-Mail address from my postingsvK as I have received exactly zero other pieces of spam at the email addresseshF that I use for newsgroup postings. They also used the eisner.decus.org< variant that I use instead of the current encompasserve.org.  F BTW, not only are they spammers, they can't even target their audienceC correctly, as they sent the message in quoted-printable/HTML format " which looks like this in VMS mail:  -                          --------------------oF nty. The college offers degrees and certificates in 87 areas of study=F  in nine divisions.  Over 1,200 students successfully complete their =C course of studies each year.  More...=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A =0D=0A =0D= F =0A=0D=0A =0D=0AEnterpriseSCHEDULE lets you create job streams that s=F pan your entire OpenVMS, UNIX and WindowsNT/ 2000/XP enterprise. Neve=F r before has automating tasks across platforms been easier with a var=F iety of time-based scheduling controls and job runs based on interdep=-                          --------------------e  I Really nice and readable to people who are just as likely to use VMS mail / instead of any other Email client to read mail.e  F They have just made sure that I don't ever buy from them. Does anybody1 know if they sell on harvested E-mail addresses ?r   Simon.   --  B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       + Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.s   ------------------------------    Date: 16 May 2002 17:39:45 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)b# Subject: Re: ISE just spammed me...b3 Message-ID: <FB2mT5m4+IJ7@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  x In article <5LjU9KSbUiwM@eisner.encompasserve.org>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes:M > Has anyone else just got spammed by ISE offering some kind of VMS product ?u  ; > They have just made sure that I don't ever buy from them.S    What are the ISE product names ?   -- AN ==============================================================================I The Boulder Pledge: "Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anythingiJ      offered to me as the result of an unsolicited email message. Nor willI      I forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or virus warningsEH      to large numbers of others. This is my contribution to the survival      of the online community."N ==============================================================================   ------------------------------   Date: 16 May 2002 23:14:18 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com># Subject: Re: ISE just spammed me...P, Message-ID: <ac1ega127nf@enews2.newsguy.com>  C Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-earth.ufp> wrote:PM > Has anyone else just got spammed by ISE offering some kind of VMS product ?   H I get spammed by them on roughly a monthly basis.  I have been for ages.E It's a bit irritating, especially since it basically comes through as H garbage on my Mac.  They're obviously using something like MS Lookout to sent it.   			Zane=   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 01:07:03 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")# Subject: Re: ISE just spammed me...58 Message-ID: <00A0E08C.F21A4469@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  x In article <5LjU9KSbUiwM@eisner.encompasserve.org>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes:  L >Has anyone else just got spammed by ISE offering some kind of VMS product ?  O I get email from ISE fairly regularly, but they got my address at a DECUS trade M show, and when I complained about getting text/HTML mailings, they changed meR$ to VMSmail-readable text/plain ones.  K I have no complaints about ISE.  (Last I looked, they offered an enterpriseeK backup _server_ on VMS, which gave me a warmer and more comfortable feelinghL than the various VMS-as-client ones.  We couldn't afford any of them in any  case.)   -- Alano  O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210WO ===============================================================================b   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:20:47 -0400 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com># Subject: Re: ISE just spammed me...c, Message-ID: <3CE468FF.3080603@tsoft-inc.com>  M I started getting it after attending the DECUS event in LA.  (The one called oK Encompass.)  I may have given them my e-mail, can't recall.  They may have c, obtained the attendance roster.  Don't know.   Dave     Zane H. Healy wrote:  E > Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-earth.ufp> wrote:s > M >>Has anyone else just got spammed by ISE offering some kind of VMS product ?d >> > J > I get spammed by them on roughly a monthly basis.  I have been for ages.G > It's a bit irritating, especially since it basically comes through as J > garbage on my Mac.  They're obviously using something like MS Lookout to
 > sent it. > 	 > 			Zaner >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:44:26 -0400o' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>5# Subject: RE: ISE just spammed me...nT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4026606D7@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Alan,n  H As a fyi, ISE is definitely a very strong OpenVMS partner. They not onlyG attend and promote their OpenVMS based backup and scheduler products atmA major DECUS / CETS events, but also at events like the World wide F OpenVMS Ambassador meetings. I do know of a few Customers who have had$ lots of good thing to say about ISE.  
 Reference: http://www.i-s-e.com   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant0 Hewlett-Packard Canada! Consulting & Integration Services: Voice: 613-592-4660- Fax  :  819-772-7036 Email: Kerry.Main@hp.com     -----Original Message-----+ From: "Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr" * [mailto:winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU]=20 Sent: May 16, 2002 9:07 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComE# Subject: Re: ISE just spammed me...O    3 In article <5LjU9KSbUiwM@eisner.encompasserve.org>,aD clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes:  E >Has anyone else just got spammed by ISE offering some kind of VMS=20o
 >product ?  C I get email from ISE fairly regularly, but they got my address at a ? DECUS trade show, and when I complained about getting text/HTML > mailings, they changed me to VMSmail-readable text/plain ones.  @ I have no complaints about ISE.  (Last I looked, they offered anB enterprise backup _server_ on VMS, which gave me a warmer and moreE comfortable feeling than the various VMS-as-client ones.  We couldn'te afford any of them in any=20 case.)   -- Alana  L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=B =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU?  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056A  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CAy
 94309-0210L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=L =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=B =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3Dn   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:26:37 -0400u1 From: "Island (hpaq.net)" <dbturner@islandco.com>f! Subject: Island - the best pricese/ Message-ID: <ue8n0j7pfg6f40@news.supernews.com>a  ? Who else sells complete Alphaserver systems for less than $1300-   Go to www.islandco.com     -- Island Computers US Corp.m 2700 Gregory Streetv Savannah GA 31404R Toll Free: 1-877 636 4332N International: 001 912 447 6622-  Facsimile:      001 912 201 0096 dbturner@hpaq.netk www.hpaq.net   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:10:06 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)Y Subject: Re: Let go of VMS for the good of your career? (was "Re: System manager availabltI Message-ID: <rdeininger-1605022010060001@1cust2.tnt1.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>f  5 In article <3CE422FE.B41E2CE4@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei % <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:-  M >Which is why if HP wanted us to be on its side, it would offer free training N >that would help leverage our VMS experience and knowledge to get job on HP-UXL >and push HP-UX internally at employers. If HP doesn't help us, we will turn0 >against HP and propose IBM or Sun at employers.  G Do IBM and Sun provide free training?  Or is it only Compaq/HP that youm" expect to give you stuff for free?  J Why would HP find your VMS experience valuable to push HP-UX?  Do you have HP-UX experience?   J HP might be interested in your VMS experience to leverage and promote VMS,I if only you would calm down and stop spouting bullshit as carved-in-stonenJ fact.  In your present fevered condition, I doubt anyone with authority at" HP would get within a mile of you.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:22:18 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>sY Subject: Re: Let go of VMS for the good of your career? (was "Re: System manager availablh, Message-ID: <3CE422FE.B41E2CE4@videotron.ca>   Tim Llewellyn wrote:K > I have unix experience, I cannot get interviews for any type of unix job.dH > The UK market at the moment requires current or very recent experience > of all skills required.t  L Which is why if HP wanted us to be on its side, it would offer free trainingM that would help leverage our VMS experience and knowledge to get job on HP-UX K and push HP-UX internally at employers. If HP doesn't help us, we will turnb/ against HP and propose IBM or Sun at employers.t   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:42:17 GMTd4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk>Y Subject: Re: Let go of VMS for the good of your career? (was "Re: System manager available0 Message-ID: <3CE4189B.6DECB5F3@blueyonder.co.uk>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:h > 8 > Chris Bardell wrote (in Re: System Manager avaliable): > I > > An earlier reponse was 'get into Unix'. A valid point, but to to jump J > > across into any other technical field often means an 'entry-level' job > G > > unless you have some proper commercial experience of the new field.cI > > Entry-level UK salaries are dreadful when you consider cost of livingu@ > > here. Barely adequate for a single person, let alone someone > > supporting kids, etc.n > >sJ > > Sorry, wish I could suggest something more valid other than continuing > I > > to search around. Also, I'm about to configure from scratch an old PCyE > > with Linux (& Apache, PHP, etc) to try to add *some* skills to myeJ > > portfolio. If you have an old PC knocking about, it's cheap/free & the > " > > experience might prove useful. > D > As I've been reading c.o.v. the last few days, I've been wonderingH > about this general topic. A lot of you sound like you're sticking with@ > VMS simply because that's what you know. I wonder if this is a4 > wise choice for the long-term good of your career?  I I have unix experience, I cannot get interviews for any type of unix job.tF The UK market at the moment requires current or very recent experience of all skills required.    Nice idea, tried that. -- , tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk    F * tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address will cease to work June 2002 *   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:10:10 -0400g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>dY Subject: Re: Let go of VMS for the good of your career? (was "Re: System manager availabl., Message-ID: <3CE4667D.F2486C83@videotron.ca>   Robert Deininger wrote:eL > fact.  In your present fevered condition, I doubt anyone with authority at$ > HP would get within a mile of you.  & And that would only make things worse.  L How many customers will HP avoid because HP doesn't have the guts to explain  clearly what they intend to do ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:01:29 GMTa* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesoA Message-ID: <ZtSE8.40744$fU2.3867678@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>0  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KHSP03KTHU99DNNX@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...sH > > The problem is that HP stated very clearly that new sales were to go > > PA-RISC and not Alpha. >- > For unix, yes.  G Wrong.  There was nothing Unix-specific in the statement ("The roles of5G these two families will be quite different. The PA-RISC servers will beoJ targeted at the PA-RISC installed base and all new business opportunities.I AlphaServer systems will be primarily focused on the Alpha installed base,K and high-performance technical computing."), save for including the plannedrI HP-UX future as *one* of the reasons that "We're leading with PA-RISC for-I new business opportunities" until Itanic (supposedly) matures.  Note that G these statements came under the heading "RISC-based Servers":  it was acK discussion of how the hardware platforms would be differentiated, not aboutwK OSs (which were discussed in separate sections later - but no good news foro VMS there, either).l  K Nor was there anything OS-specific in another statement in the same roadmap G ("AlphaServer systems will be focused on the Alpha installed base, higheH performance technical computing and other areas like Oracle 9i RAC where  unique value-add is provided.").   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:29:12 -0400c- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesd, Message-ID: <3CE3FA77.B161C845@videotron.ca>   Phillip Helbig wrote: I > As far as targetting VMS to new customers, well, probably not, but thisa5 > is the same things have been for the last 10 years.    No it isn't.  L Since June 25, VMS has been running on a dying platform.  Those who need theL Alpha high performance generally go Tru64. What Alpha does to VMS is counterI some of the extra overhead that VMS's security and data integrity offers.i  J What June 25 did is raise the bar even higher, making it harder to justifyK buying a new VMS system. This means that fewer are in a situation where thehN extra benefits of VMS have bigger weight than the higher risk of the platform.  M What HP just did is raise the bar even higher. Even fewer will now be able tolH convince their management that going VMS even for 3-5 years is worth it.  N Like it or not, HP made certain statements. Live with it. Those statements notS only send a clear message to customers, but especially to ISVs: No new Alpha sales.   K Sure, you will probably be allowed to beg for a new Alpha installation, but I you'll have to beg big time. And that statement pretty well rules out anysJ "renaissance" style marketing which saved VMS from being cancelled 2 yearsD ago. From the ISV point of view, it really means no new Alpha sales.  M Face it. If HP-UX has better clustering than Sun or IBM, then those customersoM who are still on VMS due to clustering will have to migrate to HP-UX when VMSmM is EOLed because that will be the system that will approximate VMS the most. pN The only reason Compaq didn't kill VMS is that they knew that they had nothingK to offer to VMS customers to replace VMS and woudl lose those customers, asg/ did Digital when it told cutomers to leave VMS.t  K Since then, Unix has started to gain clustering. And to those for whom UnixnN clustering isn't enough, HP can offer Tandem solution that really provides theM 24/7 garantees. So when HP pulls the plug on VMS, the situation will be quite K different from the past. Also remember that in the past, pissed off Digital N customers could go HP as a alternate "serious" vendor. But now, if they gain a1 "anything but HP" mentality, where will they go ?o  K IBM is the only one left that is serious, and many still have very negativeeN attitudes towards IBM. Sun is a one trick poney and doesn't have the breath of+ products and services that HP or IBM offer. I So HP stands a much greater chance of retaining VMS customers once VMS iszJ EOLed. With this in mind, the hurdles that have prevender the owner of VMS4 from killing VMS in the past are rapidly going away.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 14:34:12 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>n Subject: Re: No new Alpha salese, Message-ID: <3CE3FBA3.4733B604@videotron.ca>   One additional thing:i  M Whether HP meant every word of the "no new alpha sales" statement or not, yourJ can bet that HP's comeptitors will take  HP's word very seriously and will5 tell potential customers to avoid HP like the plague.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:11:00 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesU@ Message-ID: <UCSE8.8018$Yg7.1196187@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KHSP27LRC899DNNX@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com... J > > Not thaat the 'no new' is ALPHA sales, not any OS. Unix fans can stickF > > their head up HPUX, but VMS customers can *only* use Alphas at the% > > monent, so that means no new VMS.m > G > Total bullshit.  Total, complete bullshit.  Sorry to be so harsh, andhG > please don't take it personally, but there is a real danger that somemC > VMS novice might read statements like that here and get confused.c  B Only if they can't read HP's roadmap any better than you can.  ItsG statements are clear (I quoted them for your benefit just a moment ago,:3 should you care to correct your misunderstandings).J   >nE > Of course you can buy a new ALPHA from HP, running whatever OS they.J > support on it.  Sure, they will target new unix sales as PA-RISC and not% > ALPHA, but this doesn't affect VMS.S  = Wrong.  They say, clearly, that they will push *all* new RISCuI customers/sales (save for HPTC, where VMS does not traditionally get much F use, and Oracle RAC) toward PA-RISC and not Alpha, which, since VMS is3 available *only* on Alpha, absolutely includes VMS.n  %   Ring them up and ask them.  OK, theoI > sales folks might be clueless, but during the last 10 years it was alsoII > not straightforward to buy an ALPHA running VMS---but that doesn't meant > it couldn't be done.  L I suspect you're right:  if you go to HP, ask them to sell you a VMS system,F and make it clear that you'll go to another vendor if they won't, then) you'll probably be able to buy one.  BFD.e   >M, > Let's face it.  The wording was confusing.  G You're the only one who seems confused:  perhaps you just don't want toD understand it.     Some of the wording isC > obviously wrong, like listing VMS under unix.  If there is a high G > probability that the wording is mixed up, there is no point in taking G > something as gospel, especially in this case where it is pretty clear.H > that the "new customers won't get alpha" means a) unix and b) even new4 > customers can get alpha (unix or VMS if they ask). >eF > Some confusing wording was actually changed, which I think is a good > thing. >1I > As far as targetting VMS to new customers, well, probably not, but thiso5 > is the same things have been for the last 10 years.e  H Or perhaps you just want to split hairs:  I agreed above that a customerG probably can get HP to sell them VMS if they're persistent enough.  ThecH problem the people you're disagreeing with have is that this will be theF *only* way VMS gets sold (save possibly to the existing base, though IC wouldn't bet that they won't be 'encouraged' to 'migrate' as well).    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 18:54:27 GMTa5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>E Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesn9 Message-ID: <DfTE8.38$%C3.772150@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>r   Bill Todd wrote in message ... >t >v   snip   >>- >> Let's face it.  The wording was confusing.  > H >You're the only one who seems confused:  perhaps you just don't want to >understand it.= >=  K No Bill, he's not.  I'd suspect you were confused, but I know you are not -k for you it is intentional.  H The messages you are trying to spin, are really focused on Tru64, not onG OpenVMS.  For Tru64, it is clear that we would prefer to move customers=K as-soon-as-possible to HP-UX instead delaying their migration.  Where Alpha I or Tru64 features are a requirement for Tru64 customers - then we will bynK all means sell it to them.  But where the price/performance and applicationsL availability meet the customer needs on PA RISC or IA64 and HP-UX -- that isL our clear preference.  That would seem to make sense, and be consistant with" the long term plan for UNIX in HP.  D If a customer walks in the door, and provides no preference, and theG applications are available on HP-UX -- then that is what they will most I likely be steered towards.  Which doesn't offend me, or seem confusing...> HP-UX is what, the #2 UNIX?   L If a customer walks in the door, and wants VMS, we'll sell them VMS.  If theL application set only runs on VMS, we'll sell them that.  I eventually expectI that once VMS has integrated into HP, and is available on IA64, sales may F even suggest VMS where and when the situation suggests it is the rightA solution - even when the customer isn't an existing VMS customer.j  I In the mean time, we still maintain our VMS ambassadors in the field, whoeK continue to sell VMS into new and old accounts.  This is where a lot of ourrC "new" business comes from today.  They will continue to sell VMS onb7 everything we sell it on.  Alpha today, IA64 tommorrow.S  J There are no orders or policy here to actively *not* sell VMS.  The ordersI are to sell everything we have, and as much of it as we can.  Letting the H customer decide what is right for them, and with guidelines for when theK customer has no preference (all 3 of them that don't have a general idea ofc! what we have and what they want).0  F You'll have to excuse a few people with extensive HP-UX background andH enthusiasm, for not being sensitive to the VMS customer base.  I believeI that the cards and letters they are getting are bringing them up to speedED very quickly.  The change to the Q&A is just one indication of that.   >>I >Or perhaps you just want to split hairs:  I agreed above that a customer H >probably can get HP to sell them VMS if they're persistent enough.  TheI >problem the people you're disagreeing with have is that this will be theaG >*only* way VMS gets sold (save possibly to the existing base, though IaD >wouldn't bet that they won't be 'encouraged' to 'migrate' as well). >   L Let me repeat.  VMS has maintained it's own small army of specialists in theH field - the Ambassadors - who we use to find and sell VMS solutions.  InK fact, they are here in NH next week for their 6 month briefing/training and)K feedback to VMS engineering.  Its not likely that a new customer walking in3H the Compaq sales office 18 months ago - expressing no preference - wouldF have been "steered" to VMS - unless an Ambassador had worked with, and> helped them to understand when to recognize a VMS opportunity.   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:11:08 GMTo5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>  Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesF9 Message-ID: <gvTE8.41$Mz3.642147@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>3  = JF Mezei wrote in message <3CE3FA77.B161C845@videotron.ca>...3 >Phillip Helbig wrote:J >> As far as targetting VMS to new customers, well, probably not, but this6 >> is the same things have been for the last 10 years. >-
 >No it isn't.- > I >Since June 25, VMS has been running on a dying platform.  Those who need@ thedE >Alpha high performance generally go Tru64. What Alpha does to VMS is4 counterpJ >some of the extra overhead that VMS's security and data integrity offers. >-  K Sigh.  VMS isn't running on a dying platform.  Yes, I know you do not agreer
 with that.  K What Alpha does for VMS is provide a platform that outperforms the VAX.  ItsD provides competetive performance, at a competetive price.  Are thereF performance deficiencies?  Yes, expecially comparing against UNIX-likeI operations that VMS didn't envision in it's design.  We're working to fixSI them.  Our security and data integrity are really not the root problem ofDF the performace issues.  The design just doesn't work when trying to doK things that are common on UNIX and Windows systems today (like creating andnL destroying lots of little files, or trying to use UNIX file semantics in C).  K >What June 25 did is raise the bar even higher, making it harder to justify L >buying a new VMS system. This means that fewer are in a situation where theE >extra benefits of VMS have bigger weight than the higher risk of theo	 platform.n >o  I I disagree.  While Tru64 might try to exploit every ounce of performance,uH VMS has been more concerned with binary compatability and stability.  We7 don't build the kernel for the platform - for instance.e  L If VMS provides the performance that is needed, at a competetive price, thenG I think most customers are happy.  What IA64 in the short term does noteH provide is high performance in absolute terms.  That is, it won't be theH "fastest" hardware available.  But neither is most of the hardware sold.K Heaven knows Sun isn't the performance leader, but they still sell a lot ofR	 hardware.f  K >What HP just did is raise the bar even higher. Even fewer will now be ableD toI >convince their management that going VMS even for 3-5 years is worth it.i >e  G HP has done nothing of the sort.  Only the spin being put on it by someeL unhappy people in this conference looking for anything that can be construed( as confirmation that the sky has fallen.  K >Like it or not, HP made certain statements. Live with it. Those statementse notnG >only send a clear message to customers, but especially to ISVs: No new  Alpha sales. >p  J No we didn't.  This is a spin to try and apply something intended for UNIXK to VMS.  And in response to confusion in some things that were said, HP hasl even modified the statements.e  L >Sure, you will probably be allowed to beg for a new Alpha installation, butJ >you'll have to beg big time. And that statement pretty well rules out anyK >"renaissance" style marketing which saved VMS from being cancelled 2 yearsbE >ago. From the ISV point of view, it really means no new Alpha sales.t >   K I'm sorry you feel that you need to beg, but nothing has changed.  The best'I source of help in selling, configuring, and installing VMS is to find outfH who your Ambassador is.  They will be happy to help you to get the rightF tool for the right job - even when it isn't VMS - but they are all VMS bigots at heart.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 15:41:53 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesc, Message-ID: <3CE40B7C.66F5B618@videotron.ca>   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:J > The messages you are trying to spin, are really focused on Tru64, not on > OpenVMS. t  K What is more important: how you, the insiders read the official HP text, orhB how customers and potential customers in the field read the text ?  M Customers read "new customers to PA-RISC, Alpha only for existing customers".k  K Unless HP (Carly) comes out with an official and puhblic correction to this?> policy, folks will continue to assume that this is the policy.  J It doesn't matter what you think. What matters is what potential customersN think, and what wonderful ammunition HP provided to its competitors to prevent further VMS sales.  G Do you not agree that the HP statements allow competitors to tell their J customers "don't bother with VMS, HP isn't interested in selling it to newK customers, and instead prefers to migrate existing VMS customers to HP-UX".r    ? > For Tru64, it is clear that we would prefer to move customers-@ > as-soon-as-possible to HP-UX instead delaying their migration.  K Since Tru64 is relegated to the "high performance technical computing" that C requires the CPU, I find it odd that HP would cannabalise potential J supercomputer sales just because it prefers its customers to go to another dead platform PA-RISC. t  N If HP presents PA-RISC or IA64 to potential supercomputer customers instead of3 EV7 and EV79, then HP risks losing the sale to IBM.>  M Of course, to HP/Intel, EV7 and EV79 are pesky necessary evils that should bepK hidden because they only highlight what a big mistake HP and Compaq made in 7 putting all their eggs in the failed Intel IA64 basket.-  rM What a great example of a executives cannabalising a corporation's unique andtL better-than-competitors assets in order to protect/justify their own (wrong) business decisions.n  N > availability meet the customer needs on PA RISC or IA64 and HP-UX -- that isN > our clear preference.  That would seem to make sense, and be consistant with$ > the long term plan for UNIX in HP.  M Why not choose the best platform available at a time ? Since both PA-RISC andcI ALPHA are to be replaced by the inferior IA64 at some time in the future, E shouldn't HP be pushing the best product now ? If Tru64 is better forrN technical computing, then it shoudl openly sell that, while continuing to sell HP-UX for business computing.e  H Once IA64 becomes a reality and Tru64 features are integrated into HP-UXV (supposedly with proper migration tools), then HP could think about tru consolidation.  K It is very dangerous to sell the bear's skin before you've killed the bear.eL IA64 is still vapourware. It is dangerous for HP to cannabalise its existing% assets before IA64 has proven itself.c  > I would have been much happier with a product roadmap such as:  L "HP intends to leverage its current Alpha and HP-UX assets to their fullest,J taking advantage of each other strengths in different markets, at the sameK time as preparing for the eventual consolidation onto IA64 where HP-UX willdL incorporate many Tru64 features and cater to markets formerly served by bothQ tru64 and HP-UX, with VMS and NSK serving mission critical applications on IA64."y  L The way HP structured their roadmap, it seems like HP wants to hide Alpha asL if it didn't exist because it makes HP's decision to go IA64 look very poor.  M The dangerous part however is that it will allow accountants to draw an imagenN of Marecello's "legacy" department as being high cost and negative growth. WhoF is going to pay for the development of the EV7 "wildfires" ?  How manyI exsiting customers who just bought a wildfire will want to ditch then EV6h) wildfire and buy an EV7 marvel-wildfire ?d  H The minute the accountants find a way to paint negative growth onto thatL department, it becomes extremely tempting to accelerate its shutdown and putK it into "maintenance" mode.  The longer it takes before IA64 is viable, the 7 longer VMS and Alpha will be in danger of being canned.w  G > If a customer walks in the door, and wants VMS, we'll sell them VMS.    N How many ambassadors do you have wordwide ? Which door does a customer need to: walk through ? Do new customers know about ambdassadors ?   G Heck, I only know about Kerry Main here. For all I know, he is the onlyaL ambassador in Canada. If a customer in halifax wants a new VMS installation,J will that customer have to travel to Ottawa and hunt down Kerry ? Will the8 local HP office in Halifax even know Kerry Main exists ?   > If the9 > application set only runs on VMS, we'll sell them that.o  N I suspect that for the few apps that only run on VMS, you already have all the customers you'll ever get. l     > I eventually expect K > that once VMS has integrated into HP, and is available on IA64, sales maytH > even suggest VMS where and when the situation suggests it is the rightC > solution - even when the customer isn't an existing VMS customer.e  K That is too far into the future to be able to predict. Meanwhile, what willrL ISVs do ? If VMS has negative growth, what steps will HP do to convince ISVsH to port exsiting and new apps to VMS-IA64 when HP has produced such niceV statements as "we expecte VMS customers to migrate in their own time to HP-UX" ???????  L Has HP outlined any  official efforts to work to help VMS weather the period/ between now and the time it is viable on IA64 ?d   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:18:19 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: No new Alpha salestA Message-ID: <fuUE8.14507$e66.1353338@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>r  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message3 news:gvTE8.41$Mz3.642147@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net...p? > JF Mezei wrote in message <3CE3FA77.B161C845@videotron.ca>...D > >Phillip Helbig wrote:L > >> As far as targetting VMS to new customers, well, probably not, but this8 > >> is the same things have been for the last 10 years. > >t > >No it isn't.H > >oK > >Since June 25, VMS has been running on a dying platform.  Those who needg > the G > >Alpha high performance generally go Tru64. What Alpha does to VMS isr	 > counteroL > >some of the extra overhead that VMS's security and data integrity offers. > >8 >$/ > Sigh.  VMS isn't running on a dying platform.l  H Hmmm.  Given the 33% drop in BCSG revenue in Q1, the dominant portion ofI which drop seems to be attributable to an even greater percentage fall in L Alpha sales, I'd say that assertion is at best highly questionable (and moreK than likely to continue to be at least as questionable in future quarters).mI While you may be living in a pleasant little closed world where VMS seemsn( healthy, Fred, most of the world is not.   ...i  H > >What HP just did is raise the bar even higher. Even fewer will now be able > toK > >convince their management that going VMS even for 3-5 years is worth it.s > >t >nI > HP has done nothing of the sort.  Only the spin being put on it by someuD > unhappy people in this conference looking for anything that can be	 construedL* > as confirmation that the sky has fallen.  L I'm afraid the only spin involved here is the spin you're attempting to give# to some pretty clear HP statements.n   >hB > >Like it or not, HP made certain statements. Live with it. Those
 statements > nothI > >only send a clear message to customers, but especially to ISVs: No newS > Alpha sales. > >h >iL > No we didn't.  This is a spin to try and apply something intended for UNIXI > to VMS.  And in response to confusion in some things that were said, HPh hast > even modified the statements.a  J Not in the public HP roadmap, as of a couple of hours ago.  Perhaps you'reD confused by the waffling in VMS-specific publications, but since theL statements to the already-converted never have matched corporate-wide policy% very well this is not too surprising.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:29:28 GMTe* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: No new Alpha sales.> Message-ID: <IEUE8.2166$th.216876@bin2.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message3 news:DfTE8.38$%C3.772150@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net...  >g  > Bill Todd wrote in message ... > >  > >e >  > snip >h > >>/ > >> Let's face it.  The wording was confusing.d > >vJ > >You're the only one who seems confused:  perhaps you just don't want to > >understand it.a > >l >hG > No Bill, he's not.  I'd suspect you were confused, but I know you aret not -u > for you it is intentional. >tJ > The messages you are trying to spin, are really focused on Tru64, not on
 > OpenVMS.  I No, they are not.  They appear (still do - just checked again now) in the , 'hp white paper HP Product Roadmaps' page at  4 http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/07may02b.htm  J Under the heading "Itanium Servers" there's no mention of OSs at all, justI the statement "AlphaServer systems will be focused on the Alpha installedlI base, high performance technical computing and other areas like Oracle 9i1* RAC where unique value-add is provided.").  F Under the heading "RISC-based Servers" (another hardware-oriented, notL OS-oriented, section) it states "The PA-RISC servers will be targeted at theF PA-RISC installed base and all new business opportunities. AlphaServerA systems will be primarily focused on the Alpha installed base andtG high-performance technical computing" and explictly gives "HP-UX is theeL long-term UNIX for HP" as *just one* of the reasons for this decision rather+ than the sole focus that you suggest it is.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:56:09 -0400m- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>y Subject: Re: No new Alpha sales , Message-ID: <3CE41CDE.3A585CC5@videotron.ca>   Bill Todd wrote:N > OS-oriented, section) it states "The PA-RISC servers will be targeted at theH > PA-RISC installed base and all new business opportunities. AlphaServerC > systems will be primarily focused on the Alpha installed base andn( > high-performance technical computing"     N Did the "and high performance technical computing" secretly added later on ? I; don't recall reading this when the documents were unveiled.t  @ How many more changes can we expect to see on what has become anA untrustable/volatile document before we get to know what the reale% intentions/policies are going to be ?l  M And more importantly, will HP admit publicly that it is refining in a week or L two a document it spent more than 8 months preparing because it has realised. how poorly it has been received by customers ?  M Sorry, but this is a very BAD start for HP and HP will have to work extremely'L hard to get any credibility, especially from ex Digital customers who got so' screwed by Compaq's broken commitments.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:36:28 GMTu# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesgG Message-ID: <wDVE8.26445$t8_.3672@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>p  2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402664115@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. ..  K >As previous replies have stated, to many people are >micro-analyzing everyn4 single word that comes out of >marketing these days.  K >For those doubting "show-me" readers, if no new Alpha >business were to bep> allowed, how does one explain the >following new VMS Customer:6 >http://www.mgex.com/news/news_releases/release28.html     Kerry,   The following was copied fromnL http://www.openvms.org/stories.php?story=02/05/13/3096101. I have not chasedK after the original document on the HP web site, but I trust that Ken Farmerv posted a verbatim copy.a   Here it comes...  E "Q5: How do you plan to position HP-UX, NonStop servers, and OpenVMS?eK A: HP-UX will be sold broadly across the commercial and technical computingsF markets, offering industry-leading UNIX availability, scalability, and reliability.  J NonStop servers are positioned as the ultimate in high availability: faultL tolerant systems that meet the most demanding customer requirements for 24X7@ operation. NonStop servers deliver fault tolerant operation at aC significantly lower-cost than an IBM Sysplex environment, with 24x7n reliability.  C OpenVMS will be sold and supported long term for our installed base A customers who have come to depend upon its proven, "bullet-proof"-L capabilities, and into ***selected new customers*** as the basis of specific6 solutions delivered by our OpenVMS solution partners."    K In my books, 'selected new customers' by definition means less than all newgJ customers. It seems to me that HP's strategy regarding OpenVMS is FAR less generous than even Compaq's.. How does one become a 'selected new customer'?% What is the definition of 'selected'?lK If one is not 'selected' in HP's view of the world, will HP even sell you a D VMS system? Or will they give you the bum's rush to unix or Windows?    . This surely is the nail in the coffin for VMS.C There is no way in hell that the growth rate of VMS being sold intoaF 'selected new customers' will even approximate the attrition rate fromH OpenVMS under circumstances when marketing is effectively limited to theD current customer base. I guess HP really does think that all the VMS# customer base WILL be dead by 2011.o  L Since you report more immediately to Paul Tsaparis, how about contacting him= and ask him to reconcile the forgoing with your somewhat rosyeL prognostications. Maybe Carly can clarify it for him and you. This is not anJ attack on you... but an attempt to get to the bottom of what HP's position really is regarding VMS.  J It seems to me that since everywhere one turns there are HP statments thatL are seemingly contradictory, that it must have been done by design. Any saneH HP CEO would have demanded and gotten a clearly articulated, unambiguousG statement of what was going to happen with VMS out to its customers andhJ prospective customers if that's what was desired. But since all we seem toL get *by design* are clouded statements, all I can infer is that HP wants VMS dead - the sooner the better.l   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:05:30 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: No new Alpha salestA Message-ID: <K2WE8.41465$Ze4.4119530@bin5.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>e  : "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in message& news:3CE41CDE.3A585CC5@videotron.ca... > Bill Todd wrote:L > > OS-oriented, section) it states "The PA-RISC servers will be targeted at the J > > PA-RISC installed base and all new business opportunities. AlphaServerE > > systems will be primarily focused on the Alpha installed base andb) > > high-performance technical computing"  >a >PL > Did the "and high performance technical computing" secretly added later on ? I = > don't recall reading this when the documents were unveiled.i  D I think it's been there all along.  Now, the two sentences above areK slightly contradictory if one considers the second to refer to HPTC that iscI *not* currently part of 'the Alpha installed base'.  But I'm not sure thea; difference is a major one in terms of overall market share.    > B > How many more changes can we expect to see on what has become anC > untrustable/volatile document before we get to know what the realm' > intentions/policies are going to be ?   F AFAIK no changes whatsoever have occurred in HP's public roadmap:  theJ changes you're referring to were I think in the VMS/Tru64-specific blatherG aimed at the existing customer base, and such pronouncements have neverpJ seemed to have a very good correspondence with reality anyway.  I do thinkL you're going off the deep end a bit in criticizing the changes being made toH them, if only because such statements have a sufficient history of beingJ less than credible in the first place that anyone who takes them seriouslyH is likely beyond help, regardless of how much the statements may change.   >hL > And more importantly, will HP admit publicly that it is refining in a week orE > two a document it spent more than 8 months preparing because it hasa realised0 > how poorly it has been received by customers ?  K The only changes appear to be in statements made to the people complaining,7K not to the world at large, so nothing more widely disseminated seems likelyyL to appear.  Especially since the 'refinements' themselves are probably *far*F below the radar of people in positions of any real authority at HP, in0 contrast to the overall (and unamended) roadmap.   >eE > Sorry, but this is a very BAD start for HP and HP will have to workn	 extremely"K > hard to get any credibility, especially from ex Digital customers who gott so) > screwed by Compaq's broken commitments.t  K I still find it perplexing why you or anyone else would place any weight inpE *anything* cHumPaq says.  If and when they actually *do* something to D indicate real, long-term commitment, then perhaps one might pay some- attention to subsequent statements of intent.h   - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 16 May 2002 16:29:16 -0700( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: No new Alpha sales"= Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0205161529.69bb974e@posting.google.com>u  v "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<DfTE8.38$%C3.772150@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net>...  > Bill Todd wrote in message ... > >r > N > Let me repeat.  VMS has maintained it's own small army of specialists in theJ > field - the Ambassadors - who we use to find and sell VMS solutions.  InM > fact, they are here in NH next week for their 6 month briefing/training andtM > feedback to VMS engineering.  Its not likely that a new customer walking inPJ > the Compaq sales office 18 months ago - expressing no preference - wouldH > have been "steered" to VMS - unless an Ambassador had worked with, and@ > helped them to understand when to recognize a VMS opportunity.  < if it was me, I would be steering everyone who walked in the door to VMS! :)o   ------------------------------   Date: 17 May 2002 02:08:08 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesU, Message-ID: <ac1om802tvd@enews2.newsguy.com>  4 Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:M > Sigh.  VMS isn't running on a dying platform.  Yes, I know you do not agree  > with that.  I I hate to say this, but just from reading the press release and what I'veiD seen in the press.  Unless HP comes out and makes a strong statement0 supporting VMS, then VMS is effectivelly dead.    K If people believe something false such as this to be true, and the company  @ that owns the product doesn't deny it, it will become the truth.  I Face it, as customers, both big and small, we all need for HP to come out K and announce a strong commitment to OpenVMS!  We've needed it for nearly a ' year.e   			Zanee   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 22:17:53 -0400i( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> Subject: Re: No new Alpha salesr, Message-ID: <3CE46851.7030001@tsoft-inc.com>   JF Mezei wrote:u   > Bill Todd wrote: > N >>OS-oriented, section) it states "The PA-RISC servers will be targeted at theH >>PA-RISC installed base and all new business opportunities. AlphaServerC >>systems will be primarily focused on the Alpha installed base andr( >>high-performance technical computing"  >> >  > P > Did the "and high performance technical computing" secretly added later on ? I= > don't recall reading this when the documents were unveiled.   O I don't remember exactly when I read the roadmap, but it wasn't too long after rO it was made available.  At that time the reference to HPTC was in what I read. oP It's possible that I didn't see an earlier version, but it would have had to be 1 changed rather quickly.  Like in hours, not days.    Dave   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 03:29:52 GMT 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>i Subject: Re: No new Alpha saleso' Message-ID: <3CE47C6A.666577CB@fsi.net>e   "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > 6 > Fred Kleinsorge <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote:O > > Sigh.  VMS isn't running on a dying platform.  Yes, I know you do not agreea > > with that. > K > I hate to say this, but just from reading the press release and what I'veeF > seen in the press.  Unless HP comes out and makes a strong statement0 > supporting VMS, then VMS is effectivelly dead. > L > If people believe something false such as this to be true, and the companyB > that owns the product doesn't deny it, it will become the truth. > K > Face it, as customers, both big and small, we all need for HP to come outwL > and announce a strong commitment to OpenVMS!  We've needed it for nearly a > year.s  C *NO* !!! IMO, We've got "commitments" hanging out of our collectivet ass!!   H We I THINK we need is for HP to put up a sufficient stake that it stands- to lose big time if OpenVMS founders further.l  E These guys can say anything they want and the likes of Rob Young willAD bite and buy it hook, line, sinker and whatever else they are baitedG with. The *ONLY* thing I can think of that will keep them honest is for C them to have a sufficient stake to motivate them to follow through.c  G Remember: certain senior VMS management, certain senior VMS Engr. staffwG and certain of the others who came over from an already long stint withnH DEC are in "maintenance" mode themselves: "Don't rock the boat, just let= us live out the last days of our VMS careers so we can retire F comfortably, and the hell with the next generation(s) who would followF in our footsteps". After all, these days "legacy" is a dirty word, not1 something to be revered, cherished or built upon.o  ? Kinda gives that "burning the bridges" speech a whole differents perspective, eh?   -- 1 David J. Dachteras dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/c   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 00:08:44 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: No new Alpha saless, Message-ID: <3CE48240.D2C615B2@videotron.ca>   "David J. Dachtera" wrote:J > DEC are in "maintenance" mode themselves: "Don't rock the boat, just let? > us live out the last days of our VMS careers so we can retiregH > comfortably, and the hell with the next generation(s) who would follow > in our footsteps".    L I am affraid that I learned the hard way that you don't get ahead by rockingL the boat and causing trouble, unless you were hired specifically to rock the% boat and get a company back in shape.r  K I understand Marcello and below for being quiet little sheep who do as they,D are told and don't cause trouble. Unless they get support from their; superiors, they won't achieve anything by rocking the boat.q  M But this means that we cannot count on them to fight hard enough for VMS. TheeD fact that that fella Stallard was allowed to release such disgustingK statements with regards to VMS is a good indication that Marcello and belowc are totally powerless to fight.n  M In my opinion, the only hope is for DECUS to get its act together and get allr* worldwide chapters to organise a campaign.  L DECUS should have its last opus by at least saving VMS. If VMS goes, so doesM DECUS since all other Digital products will be gone. And if DECUS succeeds ineK forcing HP to turn VMS into a succesful OS, then at least DECUS will play an role inside of Interex.    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:27:57 GMT * From: Jeff Goodwin <jgoodwin@maine.rr.com>9 Subject: Re: Problem with the internal clock of an XP1000 , Message-ID: <3CE42219.EE72F916@maine.rr.com>    If memory serves me correctly...  H We had this problem on our XP900s on OpenVMS V7.2-1.  After swapping outG about every part on my system and after many months, Compaq rewarded me  with the following new image:o  ,           SYS$LIBRARY:DECW$SERVER_DDX_P2.EXE   Here's the image ident:   0                 image name: "DECW$SERVER_DDX_P2";                 image file identification: "DW V7.1-010817"g@                 image file build identification: "X6TF-PLU-0000"7                 link date/time: 16-NOV-2001 14:07:11.48s/                 linker identification: "A11-39"-  E I don't believe the image has been release in any kit, but I could beeF wrong.  You can also muck with DECW$DEVICE_CONFIG_P2.COM to bypass theD problem image and avoid the problem.  We were seeing a loss of about8 five minutes a day with systems with heavy graphics use.   -Jeffw  8 Our motto: If programmers can write it, we can break it.   Rudolf Wingert wrote:n   > Hello, >uE > an user reports, that the clock of an XP1000 with OpenVMS 7.1-2 AXPnC > slows down if the CPU is heave loaded. Does anybody see the same? / > Is there any patch out to solve this problem?  >u  > TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:56:27 +0000 (UTC) , From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis) Subject: Re: scsi clusterr. Message-ID: <ac16dr$7hr$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   "John N." <JNixon@cfl.rr.com> writes in article <DjME8.323340$nc.47359116@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com> dated Thu, 16 May 2002 11:00:51 GMT:hE >I have a DS10 with one scsi controller and an AS2100 with three scsihB >controllers. They both have ethernet, so that will be the clusterI >interconnect, but I want to connect to the DS10 to the HSZ70 that is now G >connected only to the 2100.  The HSZ70 is connected to the second scsiaL >controller on the 2100, therefore the 2100 sees all the disks on the HSZ as >$1$dkB* >iM >But if I connect the only scsi adapter in the DS10 into the HSZ, it sees theH >disks as $1$dkA*t  O To solve this problem, you need to create SYS$COMMON:[SYSEXE]SYS$DEVICES.DAT.  lF It might look like this (replacing the model numbers with the SCS node names):a   [Port AS2100$PKB0] allocation class = 2 [Port DS10$PKA0] allocation class = 2  8 Then both systems will have the shared disks as $2$DKA*.  L I'm dubious about the value of this.  Is the DS10 a voting node?  If not, it) will hang anyway when the 2100 goes down.   + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgo> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------   Date: 16 May 2002 22:58:40 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com># Subject: Re: TCP/IP for VMS...HELP!o, Message-ID: <ac1dj0027nf@enews2.newsguy.com>  : Brian Tillman <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote:' > The freeware CMUIP also runs on V6.2.d  J Only on the VAX, and I don't believe the original poster mentioned if this was a VAX or an Alpha.   		Zane   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:46:21 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>c# Subject: Re: TCP/IP for VMS...HELP!aH Message-ID: <hxXE8.14534$ah_.10547@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  : "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:yHxejTcTCBBL@eisner.encompasserve.org...  > 5 >    Do you know the one about "get three envelopes"?- >-  J "I'll bite", he said, knowing that he really wanted to hear about the 'get three envelopes' story.c   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 20:21:02 GMTr# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>K% Subject: US Government 'endorses' VMSaH Message-ID: <OwUE8.25473$t8_.21080@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   In a back-handed sort of way,sL http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=75&ncid=738&e=8&u=/nf/200205 16/tc_nf/17784    I ".....the Department of Defense has been running cyber security exercisesiK against the National Security Agency, the U.S. Air Force's 92nd InformationeC Warfare Aggressor Squadron, and the Army's Land Information Warfare,	 Activity.l  L What they have learned is that the "install-and-patch" system does not work,F especially against a concentrated attack. Operating systems, they have> concluded, need to be designed more securely from the outset."    # Sounds like a great ad for OpenVMS.i   ------------------------------   Date: 16 May 2002 22:39:41 GMT4 From: "Jim Strehlow" <JimStrehlowNoSpam@data911.com>9 Subject: vax/alpha print to hp laser printers help neededl0 Message-ID: <ac1cfd$qpe@dispatch.concentric.net>  K We have a problem converting one site from a MicroVAX 3100 OpenVMS v5.5-2H4t6 to OpenVMS Alpha DS20 OpenVMS v7.2 regarding printing.  8 Print queues print properly to HP laserjet 4000 and 4050" on the VAX using the next library.L When I copied that library to the Alpha and initialized print queues similar to what waseK on the VAX, the printed jobs begin in the middle of the page, 1/4 way down,,1 3/4 of the way down the page, all over the place.dE When two different people print to the same printer, their print jobsO	 comminglet* and print within each other. It is a mess.  2 $ library/list sys$library:$DEVCTL_HP_LASERJET.TLBG Directory of TEXT library SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]$DEVCTL_HP_LASERJET.TLB ons 16-MAY-2002 14:12:21K Creation date:  30-JAN-1994 22:32:03      Creator:  VAX-11 Librarian V04-00i? Revision date:  30-JAN-1994 22:32:19      Library format:   3.0w> Number of modules:     12                 Max. key length:  39K Other entries:          0                 Preallocated index blocks:     11iK Recoverable deleted blocks:      0        Total index blocks used:        1tK Max. Number history records:      20      Library history records:       12p   COLU_132 COLU_132_PCL COLU_80e COLU_80_PCLt DATA_PCL
 INPU_BOTT_PCLr INPU_TOP_PCL RESETg SHEE_A4_PCLy
 SHEE_LETT_PCLt
 SIDE_1_PCL
 SIDE_2_PCL  - Both the VAX and Alpha use /processor=LATSYM.r  / Anyone "been there before" and have any advice?g
 Thank you.   Jim Strehlow, Data911 Systemsi Alameda, CA, USA   ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 23:51:21 GMTi- From: "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network>t= Subject: Re: vax/alpha print to hp laser printers help needed * Message-ID: <3CE46054.7020300@qsl.network>   Jim Strehlow wrote:eE  > We have a problem converting one site from a MicroVAX 3100 OpenVMSeB  > v5.5-2H4 to OpenVMS Alpha DS20 OpenVMS v7.2 regarding printing.  >F  > Print queues print properly to HP laserjet 4000 and 4050 on the VAXF  > using the next library. When I copied that library to the Alpha andG  > initialized print queues similar to what was on the VAX, the printed E  > jobs begin in the middle of the page, 1/4 way down, 3/4 of the way-E  > down the page, all over the place. When two different people printlC  > to the same printer, their print jobs commingle and print withine  > each other. It is a mess.  G Comingling of print jobs usually means a handshake problem on a serial .D link, or a firmware problem on the printer for a network connection.  D The other thing to verify is that the print queue is actually being G used, and that programs that are supposed to be writing to the spooled p/ device are not writing directly to the printer.m  0 Is this LAT to a parallel port or a serial port?  G As far as jobs starting in the wrong place, it could be the above also.a  I One thing that was found is that some HP Laserjets print from the bottom gG of the page to the top.  If the document has the wrong page size, then lI all sorts of interesting things happen.  But that is something that gets d, noticed when you change printers, not hosts.  @ If the VAX can still print correctly, then I would suspect that F something did not get set up as you expected with the print queues on 
 the Alpha.   -Johne wb8tyw@qsl.network Personal Opinion Onlyn   ------------------------------   Date: 17 May 2002 00:04:27 GMT4 From: "Jim Strehlow" <JimStrehlowNoSpam@data911.com>= Subject: Re: vax/alpha print to hp laser printers help needede0 Message-ID: <ac1heb$jcs@dispatch.concentric.net>  , Thanks. We deleted and reinitialized queues;  but may have started them before we did $set device /spoolt  8 "John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote in message$ news:3CE46054.7020300@qsl.network... > Jim Strehlow wrote:eG >  > We have a problem converting one site from a MicroVAX 3100 OpenVMSiD >  > v5.5-2H4 to OpenVMS Alpha DS20 OpenVMS v7.2 regarding printing. >  >H >  > Print queues print properly to HP laserjet 4000 and 4050 on the VAXH >  > using the next library. When I copied that library to the Alpha andI >  > initialized print queues similar to what was on the VAX, the printed G >  > jobs begin in the middle of the page, 1/4 way down, 3/4 of the wayiG >  > down the page, all over the place. When two different people print E >  > to the same printer, their print jobs commingle and print withind >  > each other. It is a mess. >aH > Comingling of print jobs usually means a handshake problem on a serialF > link, or a firmware problem on the printer for a network connection. >tE > The other thing to verify is that the print queue is actually beingsH > used, and that programs that are supposed to be writing to the spooled1 > device are not writing directly to the printer.t >r2 > Is this LAT to a parallel port or a serial port? >sI > As far as jobs starting in the wrong place, it could be the above also.g >iJ > One thing that was found is that some HP Laserjets print from the bottomH > of the page to the top.  If the document has the wrong page size, thenJ > all sorts of interesting things happen.  But that is something that gets. > noticed when you change printers, not hosts. >mA > If the VAX can still print correctly, then I would suspect thateG > something did not get set up as you expected with the print queues one > the Alpha. >e > -Johnt > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Only$ >.   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 17:53:57 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> = Subject: Re: vax/alpha print to hp laser printers help needed ' Message-ID: <3CE454A5.6030704@mmaz.com>n  & --------------0204040803000308060606099 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitt   Jim Strehlow wrote:i  - >Thanks. We deleted and reinitialized queues; ! >but may have started them before  >we did $set device /spool >lG How about showing your full queue settings, so that we can see how you t are defaulting the library?.   Barry    >e9 >"John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote in messageM% >news:3CE46054.7020300@qsl.network...- >  >>Jim Strehlow wrote::G >> > We have a problem converting one site from a MicroVAX 3100 OpenVMSND >> > v5.5-2H4 to OpenVMS Alpha DS20 OpenVMS v7.2 regarding printing. >> >H >> > Print queues print properly to HP laserjet 4000 and 4050 on the VAXH >> > using the next library. When I copied that library to the Alpha andI >> > initialized print queues similar to what was on the VAX, the printediG >> > jobs begin in the middle of the page, 1/4 way down, 3/4 of the waygG >> > down the page, all over the place. When two different people printsE >> > to the same printer, their print jobs commingle and print withins >> > each other. It is a mess. >>H >>Comingling of print jobs usually means a handshake problem on a serialF >>link, or a firmware problem on the printer for a network connection. >>E >>The other thing to verify is that the print queue is actually being H >>used, and that programs that are supposed to be writing to the spooled1 >>device are not writing directly to the printer.E >>2 >>Is this LAT to a parallel port or a serial port? >>I >>As far as jobs starting in the wrong place, it could be the above also.  >>J >>One thing that was found is that some HP Laserjets print from the bottomH >>of the page to the top.  If the document has the wrong page size, thenJ >>all sorts of interesting things happen.  But that is something that gets. >>noticed when you change printers, not hosts. >>A >>If the VAX can still print correctly, then I would suspect thatrG >>something did not get set up as you expected with the print queues onw >>the Alpha. >> >>-Johnw >>wb8tyw@qsl.network >>Personal Opinion Onlyt >> >w >i >h   -- a  @ Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO   A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028       & --------------020404080300030806060609) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii  Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitm   <html> <head> </head>  <body> Jim Strehlow wrote:<br>EF <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:ac1heb$jcs@dispatch.concentric.net">   <pre wrap="">Thanks. We deleted and reinitialized queues;<br>but may have started them before<br>we did $set device /spool<br></pre>   </blockquote> J How about showing your full queue settings, so that we can see how you are defaulting the library?<br>u   <br>	 Barry<br>g   <br>H   <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:ac1heb$jcs@dispatch.concentric.net">    <pre wrap=""><br>"John E. Malmberg" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network">&lt;wb8tyw@qsl.network&gt;</a> wrote in message<br><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="news:3CE46054.7020300@qsl.network">news:3CE46054.7020300@qsl.network</a>...<br></pre>r     <blockquote type="cite">       <pre wrap="">Jim Strehlow wrote:<br> &gt; We have a problem converting one site from a MicroVAX 3100 OpenVMS<br> &gt; v5.5-2H4 to OpenVMS Alpha DS20 OpenVMS v7.2 regarding printing.<br> &gt;<br> &gt; Print queues print properly to HP laserjet 4000 and 4050 on the VAX<br> &gt; using the next library. When I copied that library to the Alpha and<br> &gt; initialized print queues similar to what was on the VAX, the printed<br> &gt; jobs begin in the middle of the page, 1/4 way down, 3/4 of the way<br> &gt; down the page, all over the place. When two different people print<br> &gt; to the same printer, their print jobs commingle and print within<br> &gt; each other. It is a mess.<br><br>Comingling of print jobs usually means a handshake problem on a serial<br>link, or a firmware problem on the printer for a network connection.<br><br>The other thing to verify is that the print queue is actually being<br>used, and that programs that are supposed to be writing to the spooled<  br>device are not writing directly to the printer.<br><br>Is this LAT to a parallel port or a serial port?<br><br>As far as jobs starting in the wrong place, it could be the above also.<br><br>One thing that was found is that some HP Laserjets print from the bottom<br>of the page to the top.  If the document has the wrong page size, then<br>all sorts of interesting things happen.  But that is something that gets<br>noticed when you change printers, not hosts.<br><br>If the VAX can still print correctly, the n I would suspect that<br>something did not get set up as you expected with the print queues on<br>the Alpha.<br><br>-John<br><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wb8tyw@qsl.network">wb8tyw@qsl.network</a><br>Personal Opinion Only<br><br></pre>       </blockquote>y,       <pre wrap=""><!----><br><br><br></pre>       </blockquote> 
       <br>8       <pre class="moz-signature" cols="$mailwrapcol">--   D Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President &amp; CIO    E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Treahy@mmaz.com">Treahy@mmaz.com</a> * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028</pre>u
       <br>
       </body> 
       </html>l  ( --------------020404080300030806060609--   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 16:16:07 -0400c* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>E Subject: RE: VMS 7.3 upgrade problems - a bad workman blaming his toor- Message-ID: <0033000064269945000002L052*@MHS>   ? =0AIt has been my experience that managing computer systems and,? rock climbing (that's alpinism to you Europeans) are activitiesd< in which you can get yourself out of just about anything you; get yourself into if you take the proper precautions beforex+ doing anything and exercise good judgement.   ; I used to climb, but I never skydived.  Not enough options.i  ! Sounds like these folks skydived.    WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETr$ Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 3:43 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETE Subject: RE: VMS 7.3 upgrade problems - a bad workman blaming his tooi    # "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" > <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message* news:ac0dmn$f3a$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... >P > # > Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:t >:H > > I don't know what the truth of this is, but why would an organisati= on who"F > > don't have OpenVMS in their future plans invest the time and moneyH > > upgrading the OS and buying in some larger machines, only to be mov= inga off F > > the platform? With apparent 'stupidity' like that, any wonder they screwedMH > > the upgrade? And why have they upgraded their nodes without testing=   first?F > > And if your staff screw up, why do you then ditch the hardware and
 > > software?r > >m >  > C > The plan to upgrade to 7.3 was put in place because Compaq wanted = > to upgrade the GS320's to GS140's. Blaming the customer for-A > initiating an upgrade in this circumstance seems to be pointingh! > the finger at the wrong person.t >oD > The problems that they ran into were not with the process of doingB > the upgrade but with bugs that they found once they had done it.  H When you upgrade a Sun, do you test it beforehand? Do you let someone w= ho doesntH know the operating system, or read the release notes do it? Have you ne= verr in yourM@ career, been assited by the vendor in a critical system upgrade?H You are talking rubbish. It is clearly the fault of the person who did = thet upgrade for notrH doing it properly, and his/her management for not implementing suitable=   change control.n Cowboys!H On a critical system this could constitute a crime under the data prote= ctione act.     >eB > Sure people should test their systems but in this case they were? > doing tests for their vendor. Again finger pointing mostly ins > the wrong direction.  F No excuse. They are responsible for their systems and the way they are managed. TheH alternative is to pay someone to manage them and take the responsibilit= y. >m	 > Regardss > Andrew >  >e > > Glad I don't work there... > >o >i >c@ > Probably a good call on your part, unless you have UNIX skills0 > because they are trying to get rid of OpenVMS.  H In reality this failure has nothing to do with the operating system. Th= eh same thing would happengH on UNIX, Solaris, Windows or a coffee machine, if the changes were hand= ledy incompetently.   >n	 > Regardse > Andrew Harrison- >- >-
 > > Cheers > >  > > Steve S2 > >2 > >0 > >  > > A > > p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) on 05/16/2002 05:52:14 AMo > >.$ > > To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > cc:uH > > From:      p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture), 16 May 2002, 5:52 a= m. > >e? > > VMS 7.3 upgrade problems - a bad workman blaming his tools?e > >o > >aH > > In article <3CE256EB.2A084B2C@Omond.net>, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>=   writes:- > >-, > >>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Roy Omond wrote:  > >>>: > >>>P. > >>>>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>H > >>>>>No the upgrade to 7.3 went badly and they lost their environment=  7 > >>>>>completely for more than an hour more than once.  > >>>>>DE > >>>>>This has not made them happy bunnies hence the desire to scrap  > >>>>>OpenVMS.t > >>>>>y > >>>>>oH > >>>>I can think of only one scenario where this could have pertained,=  F > >>>>namely gross incompetence, both at the technical level ("upgrade5 > >>>>to VMS 7.3") and at the (PHB) managerial level.s > >>>>H > >>>>I am a bit suspicious of your claim.  Sounds like you made it up.=   > >>>> > >>>>C > >>>I didn't. The upgrade to 7.3 was done so that it would make it=4 > >>>easier to migrate off the GS140's onto GS320's. > >>>s, > >>>The failures were caused by bugs in 7.3 > >>> < > >>Now I'm convinced you made it up.  I'll call your bluff. > >>E > >>I'll bet we don't get to know which customer this is meant to be. A > >>If it were true (and I'm convinced it's not), then I'd expect"C > >>we'd get to hear of this in the meeja.  Why not drop Mike Mageer > >>an anonymous hint ?  > >>% > >>Ha, didn't think you would.  FUD.f > >> > >> > > C > > Better yet, this potential client of Andrew's obviously has the-	 immediateeH > > problem of making sure that his VMS systems remain stable meanwhile= .o > >uH > > Andrew, if you really want to do your potential client a favour, ge= t in	 > > touchcH > > with one of the UK members of this newsgroup to offer the client so= me solidv3 > > quality consultancy. He/she obviously needs it.g > >tH > > Go for your sale by all means, but if you don't give us a chance to=   addresse > > ther: > > situation, then you don't deserve that client's trust. > >n# > > Bluff called. Your turn Andrew.e > >  > > __ > > Paul Sture > > Switzerlandh > >e > >  > >o > >  > >fH > > ___________________________________________________________________= ___o > >s > >r  > > [Information] -- PostMaster:H > > This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may b= e$H > > confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message=  hasH > > been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reprod= uce,( > > distribute or use this transmission. > >dH > > Delivery of this message to any person other than the named address= ee is H > > not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have rece= ivedF > > this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message. > >e > > Thank you. > > H > > Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT= .1? > > Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.N > >TB > > Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading,
 Berkshire,H > > RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041= .f > >a > >v > >  >=   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:04:28 +0000 (UTC)-5 From: "Bill Sticker" <NOSPAMPLEASE@SPAMSTOPPER.CO.UK> E Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 upgrade problems - a bad workman blaming his tooa/ Message-ID: <ac16ss$ep5$1@paris.btinternet.com>s  I Sound like good news for me. I hope the news gets out and maybe companiespL will realise that it is likely to happen all over the place if they continueD to hire ex-McDonalds staff for 12-15K, to do a responsible and oftenK critical job. I believe that I am speaking for many people when I say this,r* even if they would not have used my words.( Anyone know how to get this message out?   ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:43:59 +0000 (UTC)w5 From: "Bill Sticker" <NOSPAMPLEASE@SPAMSTOPPER.CO.UK>eH Subject: Re: VMS 7.3 upgrade problems - a bad workman blaming his tools?. Message-ID: <ac125u$67$1@paris.btinternet.com>  # "Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy"n> <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote in message* news:ac0dmn$f3a$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com... >k >n# > Steve.Spires@yellgroup.com wrote:  >tI > > I don't know what the truth of this is, but why would an organisationp who F > > don't have OpenVMS in their future plans invest the time and moneyJ > > upgrading the OS and buying in some larger machines, only to be moving offaF > > the platform? With apparent 'stupidity' like that, any wonder they screweddG > > the upgrade? And why have they upgraded their nodes without testingp first?F > > And if your staff screw up, why do you then ditch the hardware and
 > > software?t > >  >s >tC > The plan to upgrade to 7.3 was put in place because Compaq wantedt= > to upgrade the GS320's to GS140's. Blaming the customer foroA > initiating an upgrade in this circumstance seems to be pointing ! > the finger at the wrong person.n >oD > The problems that they ran into were not with the process of doingB > the upgrade but with bugs that they found once they had done it.  I When you upgrade a Sun, do you test it beforehand? Do you let someone whoe doesntJ know the operating system, or read the release notes do it? Have you never in your;@ career, been assited by the vendor in a critical system upgrade?J You are talking rubbish. It is clearly the fault of the person who did the upgrade for not.G doing it properly, and his/her management for not implementing suitable  change control.p Cowboys!L On a critical system this could constitute a crime under the data protection act.     > B > Sure people should test their systems but in this case they were? > doing tests for their vendor. Again finger pointing mostly in> > the wrong direction.  F No excuse. They are responsible for their systems and the way they are managed. TheI alternative is to pay someone to manage them and take the responsibility.h >t	 > Regardst > Andrew >  >  > > Glad I don't work there... > >o >c >i@ > Probably a good call on your part, unless you have UNIX skills0 > because they are trying to get rid of OpenVMS.  H In reality this failure has nothing to do with the operating system. The same thing would happentJ on UNIX, Solaris, Windows or a coffee machine, if the changes were handled incompetently.   >e	 > Regardso > Andrew Harrisons >l > 
 > > Cheers > >w > > Steve Sl > >t > >i > >t > > A > > p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture) on 05/16/2002 05:52:14 AM  > >s$ > > To:        Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > > cc:vJ > > From:      p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture), 16 May 2002, 5:52 a.m. > > ? > > VMS 7.3 upgrade problems - a bad workman blaming his tools?p > >i > >hG > > In article <3CE256EB.2A084B2C@Omond.net>, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>  writes:o > > , > >>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Roy Omond wrote:  > >>>w > >>>s. > >>>>Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>G > >>>>>No the upgrade to 7.3 went badly and they lost their environmentl7 > >>>>>completely for more than an hour more than once.a > >>>>>1E > >>>>>This has not made them happy bunnies hence the desire to scrap  > >>>>>OpenVMS.x > >>>>>i > >>>>>lG > >>>>I can think of only one scenario where this could have pertained,-F > >>>>namely gross incompetence, both at the technical level ("upgrade5 > >>>>to VMS 7.3") and at the (PHB) managerial level.i > >>>>G > >>>>I am a bit suspicious of your claim.  Sounds like you made it up.t > >>>> > >>>>C > >>>I didn't. The upgrade to 7.3 was done so that it would make itr4 > >>>easier to migrate off the GS140's onto GS320's. > >>>l, > >>>The failures were caused by bugs in 7.3 > >>>g< > >>Now I'm convinced you made it up.  I'll call your bluff. > >>E > >>I'll bet we don't get to know which customer this is meant to be.tA > >>If it were true (and I'm convinced it's not), then I'd expectSC > >>we'd get to hear of this in the meeja.  Why not drop Mike Magee  > >>an anonymous hint ?r > >>% > >>Ha, didn't think you would.  FUD.n > >> > >> > > C > > Better yet, this potential client of Andrew's obviously has the 	 immediatewH > > problem of making sure that his VMS systems remain stable meanwhile. > >4K > > Andrew, if you really want to do your potential client a favour, get ind	 > > touchoI > > with one of the UK members of this newsgroup to offer the client somew solid 3 > > quality consultancy. He/she obviously needs it.r > >oG > > Go for your sale by all means, but if you don't give us a chance tor addresst > > ther: > > situation, then you don't deserve that client's trust. > >a# > > Bluff called. Your turn Andrew.  > >d > > __ > > Paul Sture > > Switzerlandb > >t > >o > >s > >d > >eJ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > >o > >   > > [Information] -- PostMaster:H > > This transmission is intended solely for the addressee(s) and may beK > > confidential. If you are not the named addressee, or if the message haspK > > been addressed to you in error, you must not read, disclose, reproduce,f( > > distribute or use this transmission. > >iL > > Delivery of this message to any person other than the named addressee isK > > not intended in any way to waive confidentiality.  If you have receivedeF > > this transmission in error please contact the sender or delete the message. > >w > > Thank you. > >nH > > Yell Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading, Berkshire, RG1 7PT.? > > Registered in England and Wales, registered number 4205228.h > >4B > > Yellow Pages Sales Limited, Queens Walk, Oxford Road, Reading,
 Berkshire,H > > RG1 7PT. Registered in England and Wales, registered number 1403041. > >  > >> > >a >    ------------------------------  # Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 19:10:15 GMT"* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing!t< Message-ID: <ruTE8.391$yl.65744@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>  < "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote in message+ news:ac0lti$g6l$1@fizban.pprd.abbott.com...eI > Back to the kids for a moment, I have 3.  How can you sit at the supperbG > table telling the kids that you should stick up for what you think is  right,( > then go to work and do something else? >-K > And yes, I understand all too well the need to put food on the table, pay> > for education, etc.  >s$ > And this just popped into my head. >6G > Never give up.  Never surrender.    <---- remember that movie and thee story 
 > it told?  J Yup.  But I'm afraid that's the attitude I apply toward getting rid of theJ Compaq management responsible for the Alphacide and, more recently, the HPK management responsible for the merger lies/coercion and the MPEcide (thoughsJ I care about that HP management mostly because it's now part and parcel of what used to be Compaq).   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 03:16:20 GMTs1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> ' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing!t' Message-ID: <3CE4793F.4626636C@fsi.net>    Dave Gudewicz wrote: > I > Back to the kids for a moment, I have 3.  How can you sit at the supper N > table telling the kids that you should stick up for what you think is right,( > then go to work and do something else? > K > And yes, I understand all too well the need to put food on the table, payr > for education, etc.i  ( Actually, I have a different philosophy.  H Now, I became a step-dad very late in life: I was in my mid-forties fiveH years ago and and my step-daughter just turned 21. If I'd had kids of myF own, I wouldn't save for their education. Oh, I'd sock money away, but5 I'd ear-mark it for the purchase of their first home.i  < See, I figure it this way: the biggest expense a family - orF single-person household - typically has is housing: PITI as they say -H Principal, Interest, Taxes and Insurance. I know the wife and I would beG siting pretty if the house was paid for. So, that's what I'd have trieda7 to bestow on my kids - a degree of financial "freedom".o  H If they want higher education, they'd be free to pursue it and work justE enough to pay expenses (groceries, taxes, utilities, clothing, etc.).w  A I know - "give someone a home and you house them for a day; teach>C someone to earn and you house them for a lifetime", to paraphrase abC proverb. I don't know of too many jobs where the sign-on bonus is an, home, though, especially in today's economy.  ) Eh, whaddaya want from a moron, anyway...    -- I David J. Dachteraa dba DJE Systemsa http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/2   ------------------------------   Date: 17 May 2002 04:28:42 GMT2 From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com>' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing!6+ Message-ID: <ac20tq0908@enews2.newsguy.com>u  0 David J. Dachtera <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:C > I know - "give someone a home and you house them for a day; teach*E > someone to earn and you house them for a lifetime", to paraphrase anE > proverb. I don't know of too many jobs where the sign-on bonus is an. > home, though, especially in today's economy.  + > Eh, whaddaya want from a moron, anyway...r  H Considering what housing costs around here, I'd say it makes pretty goodH sense.  Besides a person should be able to get a very good education for  what a rundown shack costs here!   			Zanei   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 10:46:46 -0700h  From: Jon <jsmyth69@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Worth a read;8 Message-ID: <q3s7eu4edrk33lhtsb2nkptvjesj3pd312@4ax.com>  
 I agree !!      < "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote:    >>I just came across this today. >e4 >They should have outsourced it to Process Software.   ------------------------------    Date: 16 May 2002 16:01:20 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)Y Subject: Re: [Q]  How do you set the SQO bit in the FAB (FAB, RAB, which field has this b = Message-ID: <343f30ae.0205161501.1feca16f@posting.google.com>g  M mckinneyj@cpva.saic.com wrote in message news:<zFiI6sOlMClM@cpva.saic.com>...i? > In article <343f30ae.0205160637.696685b4@posting.google.com>,y3 >  SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) writes:i
 > > Hello, > > # > > My question is after the quote.i > > 8 > > (Jim.Johnson@software-exploration.nospam.com) wrote: > >  > > [begin quote]i	 > > Alan,a > > D > > You've just encountered the SQO optimization for DAP/FAL in RMS. > > I > > SQO (Sequential-only) is a bit set in the FAB on open when the caller H > > knows that it will never randomly read a record.  TYPE knows that isI > > the case, and '@' knows it isn't (e.g. handling of GOSUBs and GOTOs).n > > H > > For the network access, SQO is used to initiate a bulk data transferJ > > protocol that doesn't send back any ACK messages until the eof is hit.C > > This means that the server can pack in as many data messages ash: > > possible, and just keep sending them until it is done. > > H > > If SQO isn't used, then a much slower protocol that is essentially a- > > request-response pair per record is used.  > > ( > > That's the difference you're seeing. > > [end quote]a > >  > > J > > OK, how do you do that? I found an example, UFO_CONTIG.FOR, in SectionJ > > 8.6.1.3 of the VMS v6.2 Programming Concepts Manual, which is fine forJ > > setting the file to be contiguous. And I showed this to our developer.J > > He asked on how to find the mnemonic, which field, what symbolic name,. > > from where, etc., has this SQO bit to set. > >  > > Thanks.  > >  > > Disclaimer: JMHO > > Alan E. Feldman & > > afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com >  > A > Using that particular example code you should be able to insertl > 2 > FAB.FAB$L_FOP = IBSET (FAB.FAB$L_FOP, FAB$V_SQO) > D > You can examine the values of the symbols by looking in FORSYSDEF. > D > $ pipe libr/extr=$fabdef/out=sys$output: sys$share:forsysdef.tlb - >   | sear sys$pipe sqon    D Thanks. But I forgot to mention that we are using Pascal and that we; don't have Fortran. Also, we are running VMS v6.1 and v6.2.t   Also,   $ $ sl sys$share  ! sl := show logicalB    "SYS$SHARE" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSLIB]" (LNM$SYSTEM_TABLE)$ sh def   SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSLIB]   =   SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSLIB]   =   SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]  $ d .tlb  p Directory SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]b  i= EPC$FACILITY.TLB;3         12/18      17-OCT-1991 13:39:48.18m= ERFLIB.TLB;2              102/108      6-MAR-1996 00:05:37.17r= STARLETSD.TLB;2          4560/4563     6-MAR-1996 00:05:40.01d  o# Total of 3 files, 4674/4689 blocks.r< $  libr/extr=$fabdef/out=sys$output: sys$share:starletsd.tlb0 %LIBRAR-E-LOOKUPERR, error looking up $FABDEF in" SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]STARLETSD.TLB;2 -LBR-E-KEYNOTFND, key not found 9 $  libr/extr=$fabdef/out=sys$output: sys$share:erflib.tlbe0 %LIBRAR-E-LOOKUPERR, error looking up $FABDEF in SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]ERFLIB.TLB;2n -LBR-E-KEYNOTFND, key not found < $  libr/extr=$fabdef/out=sys$output: sys$share:starletsd.tlb0 %LIBRAR-E-LOOKUPERR, error looking up $FABDEF in" SYS$COMMON:[SYSLIB]STARLETSD.TLB;2 -LBR-E-KEYNOTFND, key not founds  A Where else might this $fabdef be? Any furter guidance is welcome.> Thanks.d   Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldman " afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.271 ************************