1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 22 May 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 282       Contents:2 Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?2 Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?2 Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?2 Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?2 Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?2 RE: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?5 ArcVMS media management system too close for comfort? 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 3 Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix 5 Re: Did Anybody See This Column in This Week's EWEEK?  Re: Diskeeper Usage  Re: Diskeeper Usage ( Re: Does UK ATC use VMS, if not why not?( RE: Does UK ATC use VMS, if not why not? Re: eBay Redux Re: eBay Redux Re: End of an era. Re: End of an era.- Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning - Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning - Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning - Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning - Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning - Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning - Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning ! Getting remote host name with DCL . RE: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DEC. Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DEC. Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DEC. Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DEC, Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?, Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?, Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported? Island Hardware Survey Re: Log file size  Re: Log file size  Re: Log file size  Re: Multinet Hobbyist PAKS Re: No new Alpha sales Re: No new Alpha sales OpenVMS times in excel Re: OpenVMS times in excel% S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ) Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ) Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) / Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ?? , TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-time0 Re: TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-time0 Re: TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-time0 Re: TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-time2 VCB02-C (8 plane colour graphics) in a VAX 4705A ? Re: Which Unix for VMS users ? Re: Which Unix for VMS users ? Re: Which Unix for VMS users ? Re: Which Unix for VMS users ?  F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 22 May 2002 14:58:03 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) ; Subject: Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? + Message-ID: <acgbls$e5k$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>   5 In article <3CEB1E85.8A126B45@DigitalSynergyInc.com>, 6  Jeff Coffield <Jeffrey@DigitalSynergyInc.com> writes:9 |> "Only a dog barks in one language" (Hungarian proverb)  |>  R |> Each language has its merits and demerits. Only the French believe there is one |> "best" language.   D This is a joke, right??  The most famous mono-lingual country in theE world is the USA.  All of Europe, including the French, has mandatory C foreign language education and most of the Germans of college age I F knew when I lived there spoke at least three and often four languages.   |>  A |> If you  really want to be a proficient programmer, learn many.   B One of the questions we always end out fielding during open-houses@ here is, "What programming language do you teach?"  We then haveB to explain that we don't teach any programming language.  We teach@ software engineering and programming principles.  A language is = merely a tool applied to a task after you have mastered those  principles.    bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:13:49 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> ; Subject: Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? ; Message-ID: <01KI1D16EQQY96VU4K@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   L > > Each language has its merits and demerits. Only the French believe there > > is one "best" language.  >  > This is a joke, right??     
 Probably not.   A > The most famous mono-lingual country in the world is the USA.      True.   E > All of Europe, including the French, has mandatory foreign language  > education   I True.  However, it is also true that the French are famous for expecting  E foreigners to speak French, whereas other countries tend to be a bit  I more lenient.  Also, there is more political opposition in France to the  ? dilution of French (mainly by English) than in other countries.   H > and most of the Germans of college age I knew when I lived there spoke+ > at least three and often four languages.    A Sounds about right.  Even better are countries like Finland, the  G Scandinavian countries, the Low Countries etc.  The educational system  I is probably a bit better than in Germany and, BIG DIFFERENCE, television  G and cinema are usually not dubbed, whereas in Germany they usually are. D (Dubbing, as an alternative to subtitling, was actually invented in I southern Italy back in the 1930s since there were some illiterate people  H in the audience.  Thus, rather embarrassing that Germany continues with G this practice today.  To be fair, it's not all idealism in the case of  H non-dubbing countries: since dubbing is much more expensive, it is only 4 worth the trouble for relatively large populations.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:26:31 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> ; Subject: Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? B Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020522102443.00a8e778@raptor.psccos.com>  , At 11:13 AM 5/22/2002, Phillip Helbig wrote:N > > > Each language has its merits and demerits. Only the French believe there > > > is one "best" language.  > >  > > This is a joke, right??  >  >Probably not. > A > > The most famous mono-lingual country in the world is the USA.  >  >True.  J NOT. true!  The US is hardly mono-lingual, in that a) there is no officialL language of the US, in spite of other beliefs, and b) in several states, forK example, officials in many departments (such as education and welfare) must  be bilingual in Spanish.   ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ I | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       | I | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  | I | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" | I | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    | I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+    ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 18:44:20 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> ; Subject: Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? ; Message-ID: <01KI1E8UQB2896VU4K@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>   D > .NOT. true!  The US is hardly mono-lingual, in that a) there is noC > official language of the US, in spite of other beliefs, and b) in E > several states, for example, officials in many departments (such as 7 > education and welfare) must be bilingual in Spanish.    G OK, but I think it's fair to say that most inhabitants (i.e. including  C those who are not necessarily citizens) of the U.S. speak only one  % language, which might not be English.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 10:52:06 -0600 % From: Dan O'Reilly <dano@process.com> ; Subject: Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? B Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020522104922.00ab4d88@raptor.psccos.com>  , At 11:44 AM 5/22/2002, Phillip Helbig wrote:F > > .NOT. true!  The US is hardly mono-lingual, in that a) there is noE > > official language of the US, in spite of other beliefs, and b) in G > > several states, for example, officials in many departments (such as 8 > > education and welfare) must be bilingual in Spanish. > G >OK, but I think it's fair to say that most inhabitants (i.e. including C >those who are not necessarily citizens) of the U.S. speak only one & >language, which might not be English.  E Ummmm....hmmmmm....OK, in general, I'll grant that point.  In certain H areas of Los Angeles, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and in places like theH ethnic areas of larger cities such as New York, Denver, Boston, Chicago,A et al there is a definite Tower of Babel effect going on, though!      ------I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ I | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                       | I | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity?  | I | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?" | I | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx    | I +-------------------------------+---------------------------------------+    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:41:30 -0400 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>; Subject: RE: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? - Message-ID: <0033000065007782000002L022*@MHS>   ; =0AI vaguely remember Archie Bunker making a statement that  ended with the phrase   < "...except in the Sout' Bronx where no English is spoke...."   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET & Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:53 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET; Subject: RE: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?     , At 11:44 AM 5/22/2002, Phillip Helbig wrote:F > > .NOT. true!  The US is hardly mono-lingual, in that a) there is noE > > official language of the US, in spite of other beliefs, and b) in H > > several states, for example, officials in many departments (such as=  8 > > education and welfare) must be bilingual in Spanish. > H >OK, but I think it's fair to say that most inhabitants (i.e. including=  C >those who are not necessarily citizens) of the U.S. speak only one & >language, which might not be English.  E Ummmm....hmmmmm....OK, in general, I'll grant that point.  In certain H areas of Los Angeles, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and in places like th= e H ethnic areas of larger cities such as New York, Denver, Boston, Chicago= , A et al there is a definite Tower of Babel effect going on, though!      ------H +-------------------------------+--------------------------------------= -+H | Dan O'Reilly                  |                                      =  |H | Principal Engineer            |  "Why should I care about posterity? =  |H | Process Software              |   What's posterity ever done for me?"=  |H | http://www.process.com        |                    -- Groucho Marx   =  |H +-------------------------------+--------------------------------------= -+=    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:09:13 +0100 % From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> > Subject: ArcVMS media management system too close for comfort?8 Message-ID: <7mumeuso2alpov8lgi3fa1mcvas7h0h1vl@4ax.com>  A I've just received a letter from "Iron Mountain" our offsite data B storage company which begins "As part of our on-ging commitment toD improve our services, Iron Mountain will be upgrading our systems to@ 'ArcVMS' on 14 May 2002. ArcVMS is Iron Mountain's bespoke media management system..."   D Is not a computer media management system called ArcVMS too close to  HP trademarks.? Would they care? -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:17:47 +0100 & From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix* Message-ID: <3CEB542B.65E63E43@kgcc.co.uk>   Bill Todd wrote:  5 > "Ken Green" <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> wrote in message & > news:3CEA16CA.F8F24CD4@kgcc.co.uk... > > Bill Todd wrote: >  > ...  > M > > > Not sure that the use of extents makes any real difference here:  after  > all,J > > > several Unix file systems are extent-based (XFS, VxFS, I think JFS). > > >  > >  > > HP's JFS is VxFS BTW.  > M > The only use of 'JFS' I was aware of was AIX's (and that's what most people M > seem to think of when that TLA is used).  I'll try to keep HP's use in mind 
 > henceforth.  >  > - bill  ' Thats marketing departments for you :-) F All the commands call it VxFS, but software products & bundles call it JFS.  D It's been a number of years but I thought IBM called VxFS JFS on the mainframe version of AIX.    Cheers   Ken    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:10:27 +0100 & From: Ken Green <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' Unix) Message-ID: <3CEB98C3.D6DA37A@kgcc.co.uk>    Bill Todd wrote:  5 > "Ken Green" <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> wrote in message & > news:3CEB542B.65E63E43@kgcc.co.uk... >  > ...  > H > > It's been a number of years but I thought IBM called VxFS JFS on the > > mainframe version of AIX.  > J > I'm reasonably sure that AIX's JFS is a native IBM-developed file systemL > (perhaps AIX's original file system; at any rate, it's been there for manyA > years).  IIRC Veritas only ported VxFS to AIX a year or so ago.  >  > - bill  9 Yes AFAIK the RS/6000 AIX has it's own IBM-Developed JFS. 6 When HP added VxFS to HP-UX some of the marketting and@ training material said IBM used Veritas on the mainframe verions? of AIX. I never checked whether it was true, I didn't expect to 4 ever come into contact with a mainframe running AIX.  7 Veritas certainly don't list AIX as a current platform.    Cheers   Ken    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:35:37 GMT * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>< Subject: Re: Capellas: Linux, Windows Will 'Eviscerate' UnixA Message-ID: <tgMG8.88464$e66.7765564@bin6.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>   3 "Ken Green" <Ken.Green@kgcc.co.uk> wrote in message $ news:3CEB542B.65E63E43@kgcc.co.uk...   ...   F > It's been a number of years but I thought IBM called VxFS JFS on the > mainframe version of AIX.   H I'm reasonably sure that AIX's JFS is a native IBM-developed file systemJ (perhaps AIX's original file system; at any rate, it's been there for many? years).  IIRC Veritas only ported VxFS to AIX a year or so ago.    - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 22 MAY 2002 14:11:45 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)> Subject: Re: Did Anybody See This Column in This Week's EWEEK?6 Message-ID: <22MAY02.14114529@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  E In a previous article, "kenrbnsn1@rcn.com" <kenrbnsn1@rcn.com> wrote: F ->The column is titled "The Old-Fashioned Way to Fight Spam: With Vax" ->  S ->It can be found at <http://www.eweek.com/article/0,3658,s=3D707&a=3D27160,00.asp>  ->  & ->It doesn't say what OS is being run.  D Doubtful it's VMS since Brad Spencer talked at length about sendmailF configuration in the related article. Brad used to run VMS systems forD the Chemistry department here - as did a lot of other departments atG this University. Now I feel like it's just me (though I know that's not 
 really true).    --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madison 9 --                      karcher.nospam@waisman.wisc.edu      ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:27:43 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Diskeeper Usage) Message-ID: <3CEB486F.3DCF6BA6@127.0.0.1>    Roy Omond wrote: > H > I'm genuinely curious to know why.  Can you expand a bit on why OracleJ > should care if a file is moved (and made more contiguous) ?  I'd presumeE > that the file was not open at the time (otherwise DFO wouldn't have  > touched it).  5 I can report on another DB system, Supra from Cincom.   D When it opens the file, it uses LBN to access it. However it doesn'tE mind if the file moves *between* openings of the file. PerfectDisk is E capable (using Ultradisk) to move files which are open, but we saw an F issue with an early version of this (we were effectively beta testing)G which corrupted the database file because the LBNs did change. I've not < used PD with later version of UD so I can't comment further.  H However I've been aware of some DB systems that when a file is rebuilt /C formatted, that store the LBNs of the data files away in some other H database map file, and this will be where the problem comes in. Not sure if it is true of Oracle.   -- s( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comg   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:37:01 +0100w( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Diskeeper Usage) Message-ID: <3CEB4A9D.87FB97E0@127.0.0.1>    Jack Trachtman wrote:o > F > We have used the Diskeeper defragmentor for years on single node VMS > systems with good results. > F > I am now looking at using it in a Cluster, and where the application > uses Oracle 8i.   H I've used BACKUP/IMAGE very effectively! I'm not sure how Oracle handlesH its native file format, but some databases, even when records are added,B they are put into preformatted (and preallocated and defragmented)3 space, so continual fragmentation is not a problem.a  H Which ever defragmenter you use, I would strongly suggest to ensure yourG ECO levels are up to date. You have to bear in mind that it is fiddling G in areas of data integrity that VMS normally takes full control of, andeD if you give your procedures and products that respect, I don't think you'll have any problems.P   -- C( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot coml   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:27:34 -0700?' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>r1 Subject: Re: Does UK ATC use VMS, if not why not? + Message-ID: <3CEBB8E6.12D7EA27@caltech.edu>e  * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:  P > There was a really interesting article by Malcolm Gladwell in _The New Yorker_O > fairly recently - or at least I read it fairly recently; I'm way behind on my-P > periodicals - about the continued utility of paper.  (His basic point was thatN > digital media were terrific for long-term storage but that paper seems to be( > the best thing for working documents.)  J In that case he's got it exactly backwards.  We can still read the lettersI and notes of folks who lived hundreds of years ago because they committediI it to paper but we usually can't retrieve documents written ten years agoSK in their digital form because they are on media for which players no longer-I exist and/or are written in long lost data formats.  There's a glimmer ofeL hope in the deja news/Google/WayBack machine sort of digital archiving.  AndI then there's the stack of LPs up in your attack which you can't listen to > anymore because you have not owned a record player since 1990.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:28:51 -0400H* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>1 Subject: RE: Does UK ATC use VMS, if not why not? - Message-ID: <0033000064995718000002L082*@MHS>   E =0AI was thinking about the exact concept expressed in your paragraphU yesterday, David.   B I'm going to mount a 3 1/2" 120MB magneto-optical drive in a small? tabletop cabinet that currently contains a Tandberg 1200MB tapekC cartridge unit (I vaguely remember data cartridges that looked like < a stretch-limousine version of an 8-track tape cartridge...)  @ Hey, narrow SCSI is narrow SCSI and the Tandberg is still in the shrinkwrap.i  = If this is worth a significant amount of money somebody emailt& me fast before I tear it down tonight.   :^) yeah, right, in my dreams.  ' As for your last sentence, sheet music.a   Funny.   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETo& Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:28 AMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET1 Subject: RE: Does UK ATC use VMS, if not why not?     * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:  H > There was a really interesting article by Malcolm Gladwell in _The Ne=	 w Yorker_ H > fairly recently - or at least I read it fairly recently; I'm way behi= nd on myH > periodicals - about the continued utility of paper.  (His basic point=	  was thatyH > digital media were terrific for long-term storage but that paper seem= s to beh( > the best thing for working documents.)  H In that case he's got it exactly backwards.  We can still read the lett= ersuH and notes of folks who lived hundreds of years ago because they committ= edH it to paper but we usually can't retrieve documents written ten years a= goH in their digital form because they are on media for which players no lo= ngerH exist and/or are written in long lost data formats.  There's a glimmer = ofH hope in the deja news/Google/WayBack machine sort of digital archiving.=   And(H then there's the stack of LPs up in your attack which you can't listen = to> anymore because you have not owned a record player since 1990.   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu=E   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:15:14 +0100oU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>d Subject: Re: eBay Reduxi0 Message-ID: <acfv2u$r3g$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:   > In article <acdnm8$7ts$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes: >   B >>And its great that you posted this because it wasn't what causedE >>the outage. This is the version of events you origionally broadcastnG >>that proved to be incorrect and which you ended up having to dissown.v >> >> > = > 	It was PC week's perspective and yes, that is the way they-; > 	saw it and heard it.  The author certainly didn't reveal  > 	sources.  >     > So your definitive source of information about the eBay outage6 was PC week which you just re-broadcast to this group.  7 Now how many times have I read posts from you and other,5 posters on this group telling people not to trust thei8 words of uninformed journalists when they write articles about OpenVMS/Alpha.  5 Funny how you seem unable to detect a double standard  when it smacks you in the face.l  # I guess this closes the discussion.    As ever its been a joy for mea  , <More Rob FUD and spin snipped for brevity>.       Regards    Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:36:44 +0100pU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>- Subject: Re: eBay Redux-0 Message-ID: <acgasn$13u$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:  x > In article <20020521155956.16612.qmail@gacracker.org>, Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> writes: > 8 >>On Tue, 21 May 2002, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy6 >><andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote: >> >><snip> >>B >>>I have snipped the rest of the exchange to save you looking any >>>-8 >>>more idiotic, its a wednesday and the sun is shining. >>> A >>Eh? Some bizarre timezone you're in Andrew. Today is *Tuesday*.H >> >> > > > 	Andrew doesn't make mistakes , he just spins things.  It isA > 	Wednesday somewhere right now, Andrew never said he was there.o >     9 No Rob spin is what you do, trying to divert a discussion 9 about relative SPARCserver and AlphaServer performance too9 one about Sun's current financials when you find that youf# cannot justify your claims is spin.    Thats what you do.   Regardsb Andrew Harrisons   ------------------------------    Date: 22 May 2002 07:49:16 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)e Subject: Re: End of an era.e3 Message-ID: <j55PeP1uR3dm@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  p In article <20020521153303.4869.qmail@web20208.mail.yahoo.com>, Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> writes: > - > If the Itanium servers become cheapers than 0 > Alphaservers, why not ? Any idea about Itanium# > systems prices ??? I think no... 2  G    I didn't look at servers, but the initial HP IA-64 workstations were H    running about $12K US.  Everybody expects price to come down as IA-64G    becomes more popular, except AMD and Sun who expect IA-64 to wither.d   ------------------------------    Date: 22 May 2002 07:50:34 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  Subject: Re: End of an era.n3 Message-ID: <uuxDqr$yTS60@eisner.encompasserve.org>   T In article <3CEA6FEA.49D61573@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: > 3 > SAP's a fashion statement, well marketed rubbish.  > F > If proof were needed, you *can* sell snow to eskimos, SAP have built > their success on it. >   H    Sounds like eunichs.  Why is the software industry so driven by hype?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:19:49 +0100-( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning) Message-ID: <3CEB4695.43FE75D9@127.0.0.1>    John Smith wrote:d > K > Just because it isn't true hasn't stopped Sun, IBM, et al from seeming toyM > promote unix and Linux as the all-encompassing panacea for all applications  > for all organizations. > H > Okay, we'll have it your way....VMS kills fewer patients than unix perM > 100,000 critical cases, with a margin of error of +/ 4%, 19 times out of 20A& > (to paraphrase the pollsters).  :-)) > 7 > "Bill Gunshannon" <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message-> > news:20020517084726.L14008-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu...  I > > That's why I called for a reality check.  The last major un-schedulediG > > period of downtime on the VMS system here was right at the time theaG > > professors needed to input final grades and the box stayed down foreM > > nearly a week.  If it had been some mission critical hospital applicationaD > > the patient would have died with VMS just as much as with Linux.C > > No computer system is 100% reliable.  Systems much less complexTF > > than computers have been unable to attain 100% reliability, we are' > > a long way frm seeing it computers.r  F But this is the point. VMS can be made as reliable as you want it, butE it takes skill and knowledge to set up. When I've seen bad amounts of D downtime it's been due to a PFY who thinks they know it all, and theB employer won't pay the going rates for someone that can do the job	 properly.o   --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com,   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 05:23:45 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning, Message-ID: <3CEB639F.DC707543@videotron.ca>   Nic Clews wrote:  H > But this is the point. VMS can be made as reliable as you want it, but* > it takes skill and knowledge to set up.     M Out of curiosity, couldn't the same be said of just about any system ? If youiM are serious, and you know about a sustems capabilities and limitations, can't   you design it to work reliably ?  M Take an experienced person to setup and manage a microsoft piece fo software, H couldn't he make it work reliably once he knows about its limitations ?   N More realistically, take an experienced unix guru, wouldn't he be able to make2 a unix system work just as reliably as a VMS one ?  L It is perhaps easy to argue that to make a VMS system reliable is far easierM than other systems, but I have a feelilng that many unix systems end up beingd just as reliable.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 12:10:28 +0200o1 From: Franz-Josef Fornefeld <jo.fornefeld@gmx.de>u6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning' Message-ID: <acg1rl.m9.1@jo.dyndns.org>e   JF Mezei wrote:s   > Nic Clews wrote: >mI >> But this is the point. VMS can be made as reliable as you want it, buto+ >> it takes skill and knowledge to set up. - >- >-O > Out of curiosity, couldn't the same be said of just about any system ? If youoO > are serious, and you know about a sustems capabilities and limitations, can't3" > you design it to work reliably ? >dO > Take an experienced person to setup and manage a microsoft piece fo software,CJ > couldn't he make it work reliably once he knows about its limitations ?    Sure: don't use.  H But seriously: we have such systems running. The recipe is quite simple.G Take a good base (here: NT (no gimmick OS like 9x) with ServicePack>5), A a non exotic configuration (soft- and hardware), only one runningwF application and no interactive users. You get systems running non stop6 for several weeks. Uptimes >100 days: forget about it.  P > More realistically, take an experienced unix guru, wouldn't he be able to make4 > a unix system work just as reliably as a VMS one ?   Maybe. s  N > It is perhaps easy to argue that to make a VMS system reliable is far easierO > than other systems, but I have a feelilng that many unix systems end up beinga > just as reliable.   F I heard rumors about *ix systems running n*100 days (n<10). If that is "just as reliable"...    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:36:31 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>o6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm WarningH Message-ID: <3pLG8.81594$t8_.56553@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  K I can relate some first-hand experience, dealing principally with SunOS andAK Solaris in a stock brokerage/debt trading environment between 1994-2000, iseK that of all the downtime experienced, worked out to be about 35% due to thepK o/s having problems (perhaps the correct patches were not installed in someIA cases), and the balance due to sloppy coding in the applications.e  J Of the 65% due to sloppy coding in the applications, about 1/2 of that was# stuff that VMS would have trapped .h  L I wouldn't say that there were problems every day, but I will say that thereI were system outages probably 4 weeks out of every five weeks, that lasted J anywhere from 5 minutes to 5 hours, almost always during business hours or5 post-business hours 'back-office' processing windows.>  H In terms of losses directly attributable to the system outages (salary +G overhead only), my very rough calculations at the time show that it wasnI probably in the order of $15-20+ million over the 5 year period. That may L seem small to you but this was a small operation - total staff of about 200,J but it was a subsidiary of one of the top 5 brokers in the world, and theyL had unix 'gurus' up the wazoo there, and access to other 'gurus' in the rest of the organization world-wide.e  J In terms of trading opportunity losses and losses from failed settlements,J the total cost to the business in that time was probably in excess of $100L million (again those are rough calculations, based on years of experience onJ the trading side of the business). Mind you, the way some of those tradersH operated, the system outages could have saved them $100+ million too, in avoided trades. :-))  J Despite repeated attempts to encourage management to use VMS for their keyI systems, they refused to budge from Sun, even when the IRR on the cost of K moving to VMS would have returned them 1600%+ annually. So never think thatc, investment bankers and traders are so smart.    > "Franz-Josef Fornefeld" <jo.fornefeld@gmx.de> wrote in message! news:acg1rl.m9.1@jo.dyndns.org...l > JF Mezei wrote:e >  > > Nic Clews wrote: > >fK > >> But this is the point. VMS can be made as reliable as you want it, butr, > >> it takes skill and knowledge to set up. > >e > >-J > > Out of curiosity, couldn't the same be said of just about any system ? If youK > > are serious, and you know about a sustems capabilities and limitations,  can'ta$ > > you design it to work reliably ? > >aG > > Take an experienced person to setup and manage a microsoft piece fo 	 software,lK > > couldn't he make it work reliably once he knows about its limitations ?a >l > Sure: don't use. >rJ > But seriously: we have such systems running. The recipe is quite simple.I > Take a good base (here: NT (no gimmick OS like 9x) with ServicePack>5),eC > a non exotic configuration (soft- and hardware), only one runningsH > application and no interactive users. You get systems running non stop8 > for several weeks. Uptimes >100 days: forget about it. >eJ > > More realistically, take an experienced unix guru, wouldn't he be able to makei6 > > a unix system work just as reliably as a VMS one ? >s > Maybe. >dI > > It is perhaps easy to argue that to make a VMS system reliable is fart easierK > > than other systems, but I have a feelilng that many unix systems end upm beingt > > just as reliable.h >aH > I heard rumors about *ix systems running n*100 days (n<10). If that is > "just as reliable"...u   ------------------------------    Date: 22 May 2002 08:09:07 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)-6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning3 Message-ID: <pXmRTLkSGB0c@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  \ In article <3CEB639F.DC707543@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > O > Take an experienced person to setup and manage a microsoft piece fo software,iJ > couldn't he make it work reliably once he knows about its limitations ?   H    No.  For example, I've found limitations in Word.  Doesn't change theE    fact that I have to do what I have to do, Word is broken and won'td	    do it.v  P > More realistically, take an experienced unix guru, wouldn't he be able to make4 > a unix system work just as reliably as a VMS one ?  D    No.  Current UNIX are a hell of a lot better than older ones, butH    even now there are too many missing features you can't really replace(    with the bandages that are available.  B    What you can do is make Microslop or UNIX reliable enough for aC    lot of applications.  But for ome of those plan to spend lots ofe*    money on workarounds and support staff.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:02:20 +0000 (UTC),5 From: "Bill Sticker" <NOSPAMPLEASE@SPAMSTOPPER.CO.UK>g6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning1 Message-ID: <acgius$l0r$1@knossos.btinternet.com>e  H > But this is the point. VMS can be made as reliable as you want it, butG > it takes skill and knowledge to set up. When I've seen bad amounts ofnF > downtime it's been due to a PFY who thinks they know it all, and theD > employer won't pay the going rates for someone that can do the job > properly.i   Here, Here!tI And it looks like it will continue for a while yet. Then we can expect tofL see some serious disasters. Some banks will not survive it and some people's
 lives too.C If I was Bin-Laden, I would be investing in a major hack of all theeL unsecure, shitty, MS and Unix systems out there, that are rapidly being usedJ because they are cheap, the people who manage them are cheap, and everyone knows they are insecure.   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:04:15 +0000 (UTC)e5 From: "Bill Sticker" <NOSPAMPLEASE@SPAMSTOPPER.CO.UK>g6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning/ Message-ID: <acgj2f$iue$1@helle.btinternet.com>a   >tJ > > But this is the point. VMS can be made as reliable as you want it, but+ > > it takes skill and knowledge to set up.a >  >,K > Out of curiosity, couldn't the same be said of just about any system ? Ifj youRI > are serious, and you know about a sustems capabilities and limitations,0 can'tM" > you design it to work reliably ?   Seems not, eh?   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:41:33 +0200 ' From: Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>a* Subject: Getting remote host name with DCL( Message-ID: <3CEBAE1D.4D063AC8@spam.not>   Hi DCL specialists  D There are two clients of a VMS 6.2 host accessing it interactively. I The VMS client is using SET HOST while the other client is using TELNET.    H To SET DISPLAY /CREATE /NODE=<name> I get the other client's IP address G and use UCX SHOW HOST /ADDRESS=<ip_addr> /OUTPUT=<filename> to convert  ; the IP address to its host name by parsing the output file.n  * Is there a better way to do this with DCL?$ Preferably without a temporary file.  . VMS 6.2 and UCX 3.3 are installed on the host.   TIAb   Christof   -- ,7 moc dot slupofni at ssarb - please reverse the sequence    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:43:36 -0400r* From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>7 Subject: RE: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DECy- Message-ID: <0033000064952878000002L082*@MHS>l  8 =0AYour question should be more properly directed toward' those who have the power to make it so.   , LIke you, I can only wish (and send emails).  6 My position that they are listening remains unchanged.   WWWebb- (who would have made it so a long time ago ift! I'd been in a position to do so.)e   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETt$ Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 10:43 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET7 Subject: RE: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DECo     WILLIAM WEBB wrote:a >wA > Judging from the promptness and content of the email reply that D > I received when I sent an email that contained issues and concerns > ***but was politely stated***  >i > I think they *are* listening.t  E So, when can we expect to start seeing OpenVMS ads in the mainstream?    -- David J. Dachterag dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:  http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/=   ------------------------------    Date: 22 May 2002 07:55:37 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)$7 Subject: Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DECc3 Message-ID: <dW+UAkDfnvGw@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  g In article <ace79q$t15$1@helle.btinternet.com>, "Bill Sticker" <NOSPAMPLEASE@SPAMSTOPPER.CO.UK> writes:p > Just an Idea.eK > If HP are not going to commit to the continued development of OpenVMS, isoE > there a way that they can be legally forced to give it up for free?h  H   No.  But if you're rich enough to greenmail them you might get them toE   give it up for money.  Not that I'd want to but it from someone whot   did that.s   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:30:32 +0100 (MET) 9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>o7 Subject: Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DECo; Message-ID: <01KI17GJVDSI984WQP@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>f  I > If HP are not going to commit to the continued development of OpenVMS, n  F Why ask this question when it seems that they ARE committed?  Perhaps : not as much as we would like, but at least to some extent.   > isE > there a way that they can be legally forced to give it up for free?   ' Of course not.  This is the real world.-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:18:27 -0700H' From: David Mathog <mathog@caltech.edu>h7 Subject: Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DEC + Message-ID: <3CEBB6C3.102544E9@caltech.edu>o   Bill Todd wrote: > 9 > "WILLIAM WEBB" <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote in messageD) > news:0033000064817469000002L092*@MHS...e >  > I think they *are* listening.M >  > ***d > K > Well, Marcello and many below his level seemed willing enough to listen arH > while ago.  But that didn't result in any positive changes (unless youN > consider simply not outright killing VMS to qualify as a 'positive change'). > M > John's real point seemed to be less about listening than about acting, even 3 > if his subject line may have not made that clear.h  1 I'm in Bill's camp on this one.  Compaq personnelw1 would respond to email messages but near as I canw1 tell they didn't shift their strategy one iota ine3 response to any of these serf level communications.n7 I can't think of a single problem that I pointed out to . them which was successfully resolved, and that2 includes the CSLG/ESL shortcomings (too expensive)1 which (possibly) resulted in the sham educational66 program (legally unusable in an academic environment).1 So it is really no surprise that Compaq no longerR3 exists as a viable entity.  The only question in my11 mind is how long it will take the combined HPQ toa/ fold in the same manner if it too "listens" butf0 doesn't act. A good indicator will be to see how/ much longer they stay with the IA64 plans aftert- Opteron ships.  Via,Ali,SIS, Suse, Sun, Dell,o, Microsoft, etc. have all seen the writing on1 that wall, but HPQ is still waiting for Godotium.e   Regards,   David Mathog mathog@caltech.edu   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:26:13 -0400-  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com5 Subject: Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?B? Message-ID: <OFE3DF424B.8DBBEEA9-ON85256BC1.0053A899@metso.com>T  4 John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> on 05/21/2002 11:45:05 PM  , Please respond to John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc: 8 Subject:    Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?    - On Wed, 22 May 2002, David J. Dachtera wrote:t   / > Rob Brooks wrote:  / > > E / > > In article <OFF40156AB.E20B313F-ON85256BC0.004833D1@metso.com>, " norm.raphael@jamesbury.com writes: / > > >,' / > > >  From the fibre channel slides:l / > > >sI / > > >  A V7.3-1 TIMA will later provide HSG80 mini-merge capability and 	 that will . / > > >  speed up merge operations quite a bit / > > > K / > > > Will this be back-ported to V7.2-2?  (Obviously we have the classic , / > > > 3rd-party software provider holdup.) / > >c( / > > It will not be backported.  Sorry. / >n+ / > What would it take to make that happen?  / > I / > What's your price? (Read: "How many more VMS sites are you willing tor / > sacrifice?") / >uG / > Executive types (read "decision makers") tend to take a dim view of  such / > things.w /eH / I tend to take a dim view of software that is so O/S version dependent3 / that it doesn't work across a simple O/S upgrade.h /aD / V7.3 has been out for a year.  Is the 3rd party software known notC / to work with it, or has it just not been tested?  If so, did theyeD / test it with V7.2-2 (more recent than V7.3!) or are you making theC / assumption that if something is qualified with V7.2(-1?), it willdF / work fine with V7.2-x (and with ECO's), but it needs to be re-tested / for V7.x (x>2)?  /h  F It is working and supported on V7.2* (for me on V7.2-2).  The key hereC is supported.  I cannot bet my companies life on unsupported by the F vendor.  I cannot make the vendor qualify and support V7.3, although II can lobby them.  They have already changed direction to HP-UX and Oracle,e so the incentive is not there.  E / On the other hand, does the mini-merge support for the HSG80 entail @ / more than just adding the HSG80 to the list of controllers for / which mini-merge works?o /oA / Norm's original post says this feature is in a V7.3-1 TIMA.  No3D / mention of it being back-ported to V7.3.  If this is just a matterB / of changing a table in an existing driver, that seems silly.  IfC / on the other hand, it involves updating everything on V7.3 to the.H / V7.3-1 versions, except changing the version number string in SYS.EXE,E / then I can see they wouldn't want to bother.  Rob, rather than justjE / saying "It will not be backported.  Sorry.", it would prevent thesem* / little tempests if you simply added why? /i  J Yes, as I asked later in another way, since V7.2-2 specifically backportedH support for FiberChannel, what reason would there be not to complete theJ backport by reincorporating V7.3-1 features into V7.2-2, especially as oneJ of the expressed purposes of V7.2-2 backport was to protect the investmentD of those who could not quickly go to V7.3* for whatever reason.  TheF volume-shadowing changes have been backported to keep multiple-version& migration-support clusters functional.  J I understand that this particular feature is an enhancement, and the mergeG is not broken by omitting the backport, but the gain is so immense thatF0 their should be a very good reason not to do it.  G I asked - and it is herein also asked - what that reason is.  No one is D yet crying fowl.  That said, however, the comments about sacrificing customers are not irrelevant.    -Norm    / --
 / John Santos  / Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. / 781-861-0670 ext 539 /n   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:10:52 GMTi/ From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks)r5 Subject: Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported? - Message-ID: <seOr9eL7$0hF@cuebid.zko.dec.com>o  " John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> writes:/ > On Wed, 22 May 2002, David J. Dachtera wrote:s >> Rob Brooks wrote:g >> > In article <OFF40156AB.E20B313F-ON85256BC0.004833D1@metso.com>, norm.raphael@jamesbury.com writes:9 >> > >R >> > >  A V7.3-1 TIMA will later provide HSG80 mini-merge capability and that will- >> > >  speed up merge operations quite a bit  >> > >J >> > > Will this be back-ported to V7.2-2?  (Obviously we have the classic+ >> > > 3rd-party software provider holdup.)x  ' >> > It will not be backported.  Sorry.x  * >> What would it take to make that happen?H >> What's your price? (Read: "How many more VMS sites are you willing to >> sacrifice?")rK >> Executive types (read "decision makers") tend to take a dim view of suche
 >> things.  H > I tend to take a dim view of software that is so O/S version dependent3 > that it doesn't work across a simple O/S upgrade.- > E > On the other hand, does the mini-merge support for the HSG80 entail"@ > more than just adding the HSG80 to the list of controllers for > which mini-merge works?8 > A > Norm's original post says this feature is in a V7.3-1 TIMA.  NosD > mention of it being back-ported to V7.3.  If this is just a matterB > of changing a table in an existing driver, that seems silly.  IfC > on the other hand, it involves updating everything on V7.3 to thedH > V7.3-1 versions, except changing the version number string in SYS.EXE,E > then I can see they wouldn't want to bother.  Rob, rather than justlE > saying "It will not be backported.  Sorry.", it would prevent theset* > little tempests if you simply added why?  M I apologize for not explaining the rationale for the decision not to backporthI mini-merge feature for HSG controllers.  First, to answer Norm's questiontF (which I hope was tongue-in-check!), neither I nor VMS Engineering areJ (intentionally) being mean.  First off, it is rather infrequent that majorJ functional changes are backported.  I'm sure you can name a few, as can I,E but it's not common practice.  V7.2-2 is designed as a "landing zone"bN for prior version support customers.  There already have been a few functionalI changes that were introduced in V7.3 that have been backported to V7.2-2,tE but that was because V7.2-2 was essentially a roll-up of all existingaI V7.2-1 patches, and it was relatively easy to insert them into the V7.2-2 L code stream at the time the features were being added to V7.3  These changesG include Fibre Channel tape support, Fibre Channel support for Host-Baset9 Volume Shadowing mini-copy, and various SMP enhancements.e  D The work that is done to qualify new features in a given release is L immense;  it's a multi-month process.  We aren't in the process of qualifingL V7.2-2 anymore; we're putting the finishing touches on V7.3-1 now.  In fact,L the HSG mini-merge feature won't be in V7.3-1 because it isn't done yet, andH won't be ready until the fall at the soonest (although that statement isI certainly not a commitment).  The work done to support mini-merges on HSGcG controllers is non-trivial.  The first work to hit the source librariesdF was checked in about a year ago -- it touches not just shadowing, but G DKDRIVER, DUDRIVER, MOUNT, and DISMOUNT, to name a few.  I'm sure theresG are other components, but I don't have time to poke around now; this ise not a project I'm working on..  B To restart a qualification process on a prior release to integrateL new functionality requires resources that we don't have.  Contrary to (some)G public opinion, we actually are working on the port to Itanium, and not / surprisingly, we're all a bit busy on that now.   G If you have a complaint about any of the above, I'd urge you to contactaA the VMSCluster product manager, who is Andy.Schneider (at) hp.com    -- u  M Rob Brooks    VMS Engineering -- I/O Exec Group     brooks!cuebid.zko.dec.comg   ------------------------------    Date: 22 May 2002 22:55:32 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com>5 Subject: Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?e- Message-ID: <871yc4teor.fsf@prep.synonet.com>e  " norm.raphael@jamesbury.com writes:  F > Is there something in V7.3-1 that prevents this?  Else why not? ..Or > are you just being mean?  @ That is deep in serious aligator territory. And would need mongoC testing (6.2 for instance is an issue here) so much better to leavee be.a  B Have you looked at the number of failures points in a HBVS and SAN setup?   -- u< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.s@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:50:20 -0400<# From: "Island" <sales@islandco.com>e Subject: Island Hardware Survey>/ Message-ID: <uenf0hphmo8ba6@news.supernews.com>u  J To all those who completed the survey that screwed up on our website (someC problem with Frontpage and Windows 2000 Professional at our ISP) wev	 apologisei  4 We will repost the survey once we sorted the problem  F And... Yes... we know ... it wouldn't have happened if run on VMS  :0)   David Tl -  David B Turner Island Computers US Corporatione 2700 Gregory Streets	 Suite 180s Savannah GA 31404V Tel: 912 447 6622  Fax: 912 201 0096h sales@islandco.com www.islandco.com' http://www.islandco.com/legal-email.htmg   We sell Alpha's !e* All emails are checked for Virus and Worms   ------------------------------    Date: 22 May 2002 07:07:05 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) Subject: Re: Log file size3 Message-ID: <pSbUbqnJ9ctx@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  c In article <3CEA6747.1ECF4850@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes:R > I > The only (?) reason to pre-allocate space would be performance, or thataJ > you would like to make sure that nothing else fills your disk during the > run of your detached process.b >   K Another excellent reason to want to pre-allocate is to avoid fragmentation.n  H (Think about several long running processes each extending their own logM files by several blocks every few minutes on a heavily used disk. Been there,e' done that, seen the fragmented disk...)n   Simon.   -- tB Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       + Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world..   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:08:09 GMTn# From: "John N." <JNixon@cfl.rr.com>u Subject: Re: Log file size< Message-ID: <tvOG8.16010$YI5.223876@twister.tampabay.rr.com>  7 Wouldn't avoiding fragmentation be a performance issue?-  G "Simon Clubley" <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote inm5 message news:pSbUbqnJ9ctx@eisner.encompasserve.org...j2 > In article <3CEA6747.1ECF4850@aaa.com>, Jan-Erik2 =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com> writes: > > K > > The only (?) reason to pre-allocate space would be performance, or that L > > you would like to make sure that nothing else fills your disk during the! > > run of your detached process.  > >m >I> > Another excellent reason to want to pre-allocate is to avoid fragmentation. >0J > (Think about several long running processes each extending their own logH > files by several blocks every few minutes on a heavily used disk. Been there,) > done that, seen the fragmented disk...)m >  > Simon. >h > --= > Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP - > Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.s >    ------------------------------    Date: 22 May 2002 22:59:32 +0800, From: Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> Subject: Re: Log file size- Message-ID: <87wutwrzxn.fsf@prep.synonet.com>S  - "Kenneth" <yeung_kenneth@hotmail.com> writes:t  F > I am using VMS7.2-1 on Alpha 8400 and I want to run a detach processD > and log the output to a log file. Can I defined the allocated size > for the log file?C  .E You could, but you probably don't want to. It will extend as you run,fF so as long as you do not fill the volume, you will not run out. UnlessF you are dumping truckloads of stuff into the log, then the performanceF plus from pre-allocation is vaanishingly small, and the log file will F tend to vacume up all the little tiny extents and remove them from theA free space pool. This can in fact help performance of the system.t   -- i< Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,7 +61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.e@                                              West Australia 6076. Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.F EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.   ------------------------------    Date: 22 May 2002 17:03:45 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>C# Subject: Re: Multinet Hobbyist PAKS 6 Message-ID: <20020522170345.22765.qmail@gacracker.org>  B On 22 May 2002, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:E >How long is it taking for Multinet PAKS to come out after applying??rD >Stupid me, I applied for and installed new PAKS for VMS and layeredB >products and forgot that I needed one for Multinet as well.  ThisB >morning (after finally getting DECNET working) I came in to find B >Multinet expired.  Maybe I'm just spoiled by the almost immediateK >response from Montager, but patience has never been one of my virtues. :-)$  K Last time I had to update my Multinet PAK it took less than an hour for theDJ email containing it to arrive on the system. Luckily Multinet continues to8 accept incoming mail even though the license is expired.     Doc. -- a6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:40:14 +0100hU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>e Subject: Re: No new Alpha sales-0 Message-ID: <acgb39$13u$2@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   jlsue wrote:  G > On Fri, 17 May 2002 12:20:41 +0100, Andrew Harrison SUNUK ConsultancyR6 > <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> wrote: >  >  > K >>>Hmmm.  Given the 33% drop in BCSG revenue in Q1, the dominant portion ofoL >>>which drop seems to be attributable to an even greater percentage fall inO >>>Alpha sales, I'd say that assertion is at best highly questionable (and moretN >>>than likely to continue to be at least as questionable in future quarters).L >>>While you may be living in a pleasant little closed world where VMS seems+ >>>healthy, Fred, most of the world is not.8 >>>0 >>>  >>K >>The UK market numbers support your view. Alpha revenues are according to  I >>the latest report down to their lowest share of the market for 3 years  D >>at 4.6% with unit volumes at an all time low as well. Prior to theG >>HP Compaq initial announcments Alpha had a 11.3% share of the market.s >> >> > G > Poor statistical analysis.  Drop in market share can come even duringoG > times of increased sales/revenues/profits.  Drop in market share doesaE > not mean the business is falling if the market (overall size of the  > pie) is getting larger.  >     8 But then the flaw in your argument as you know full well9 is that the market hasn't been increasing over the periodt# we are refering to it has declined.s  ; This rather ruins your argument as you should have realisede before you bothered replying.s  : Still its a very nice point that you may be able to use in< the future when the market does start growing again, save it for then. :):):):)   Regardsh   Andrew Harrisone   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:43:19 +0100 U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>e Subject: Re: No new Alpha saless0 Message-ID: <acgb92$1cr$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:q  * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > 5 >>If the latest market data for the UK (emerging froms6 >>recession) are indicative then Alpha is worse placed4 >>than any other platform in the datacenter space to >>benefit from the upswing., >> > N > Andrew, it is a given that Alpha is dying. It was dealt a rather deadly blowE > last June 25, and it is no surprise that sales would be going down.h > P > I think you may see spikes whenever they make one sale and they can then claimM > huge growth in sales, but this is somewhat similar to Tandem who can go fortM > month with very little in sales and then they get one big sale and it makesS2 > Tandem look really really good for that quarter. >     0 When you get to less than 5% of the total market. it is a given that single large contracts will- have a relatively big impact on your numbers.2  / Alpha's numbers have always been quite volatileo1 compared with the other vendors, probably because0/ of this. But at the moment uncharted depths area being plumbed.   Regards  Andrew HarrisonF   ------------------------------    Date: 22 May 2002 05:14:05 -0700' From: piet@timmers-it.nl (Piet Timmers)  Subject: OpenVMS times in excelu< Message-ID: <be44b12d.0205220414.15f1495@posting.google.com>  D This is not a real OpenVMS question, but i think this is the one and only group to post it.  B We want to use the OpenVMS time format (example 00:00:02.61) in an excel spread sheet.a  D Is it possible to convert it to a time like 00:00:02 and then to use it as a time in excel.  
 Greetings,   Piet   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:53:36 +0200o From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl># Subject: Re: OpenVMS times in excelh& Message-ID: <3CEB94D0.1040004@home.nl>  G Sure it is possible. But as long as we don't know a bit more about the  H circumstances, like the kind of data you want to store, how is the data 7 produced etc. , it will be a bit difficult to help you..   Regards,   Dirk   Piet Timmers wrote:i  E >This is not a real OpenVMS question, but i think this is the one andl >only group to post it.- >aC >We want to use the OpenVMS time format (example 00:00:02.61) in an  >excel spread sheet. >rE >Is it possible to convert it to a time like 00:00:02 and then to use  >it as a time in excel.u >p >Greetings,  >e >PietI >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:21:10 +0100T% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>P. Subject: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)8 Message-ID: <isrmeuotpqt4npneup3n1fa9j8lp8qhlc6@4ax.com>  . On Wed, 22 May 2002 08:11:06 GMT, Brian Inglis( <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:  @ >On 21 May 2002 17:06:19 GMT, nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) >wrote:- >>7 >>In article <s71wutxqw1n.fsf@barnowl.CS.Berkeley.EDU>,t2 >>David Gay <dgay@barnowl.CS.Berkeley.EDU> writes: >>|> dH >>|> "Rupert Pigott" <dark.try-eating-this.b00ng@btinternet.com> writes:? >>|> > Basically C is a sequential language, it is designed forv> >>|> > sequential programs, and people think sequentially when* >>|> > they write it. Theres your problem. >i? >Maybe it's time to resurrect Algol 68 in some form: I've often 8 >wished for the ability to use Algol 68 commas (parallel  E Which reminds me, anyone remember S-Algol (St. Andrews University). Ir= recall they had a VAX/VMS compiler. Wonder if it still existst	 anywhere.t     -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 13:24:01 +0200o9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>o2 Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)' Message-ID: <3CEB7FD1.D4766FFA@aaa.com>   7 Not realy about S-Algol, but I just found a good source : on "the net" where a large number of different programming> langauges are described. Including such "things" as BLISS ;-).  9 There are some very strange things there, see for exampled= the description of the languange "Befunge". It has a "programe9 pointer" than can move not only forward or backwards, butg also left and right !v   Well, have a look yourself :   K http://www.oopweb.com/Dictionaries/Documents/ProLanguages/VolumeFrames.htmlf  
 Have fun ! Jan-Erik Sderholm.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 16:23:54 -00000% From: Pete Fenelon <pete@fenelon.com>o2 Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)/ Message-ID: <uenhgq50t9vv29@corp.supernews.com>@  3 In comp.arch Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:e > G > Which reminds me, anyone remember S-Algol (St. Andrews University). I>? > recall they had a VAX/VMS compiler. Wonder if it still exists, > anywhere.@ >   J A PC implementation of Persistent S-Algol written in Turbo Pascal lives atJ http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~wpc/reports/compilers/compilerindex/t1.html#AEN8   pete --  M pete@fenelon.com "Irk the purists, irk the purists, it's a right good laugh.">   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:59:20 -0700 * From: "Matt Simis" <mattsimis@hotmail.com>8 Subject: Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ??5 Message-ID: <acfj6v$p4h30$1@ID-131939.news.dfncis.de>i  J Yes, had my suspcions about the same. While it may not work in a DP264, it+ has to work in some motherboard, somewhere.h" Why else would they make the CPU??  L I wouldnt sell it tho, far too menacing looking and I didnt pay too much for it!i       Matt      3 "Mike Foley" <mike-spam@yelof.com> wrote in message8) news:uelgkc9eoca379@corp.supernews.com...i >m >     You're SOL.  >m? >     The Slot B's had the CPU's attached during manufacturing.e> >     You'd need some seriously expensive equipment (ie: Not aA >     radio shack soldering iron) to attach this CPU to anything.f > 7 >     SlotB does not equal DP264 daughter card. Totally3 >     different. >r8 >     Sell it on EBay and let someone else deal with it.2 >     Caveat Emptor. This is not your kids Athlon. >,F >                                                                 mike > 7 > "Matt Simis" <mattsimis@hotmail.com> wrote in message?9 > news:b4a22604.0205210123.7787e4a4@posting.google.com...c > > Hi All,b > >rK > > I asked this some time ago and we didnt get far, so Ill give it anothert	 > > shot.h > >aK > > I have an Alpha 21264a CPU (bare). I need a (any it would appear) 21264  > CPUF. > > daughtercard (aka module) and motherboard.D > > Does anyone have any ideas. I have tried Harddata and some other	 retailerss4 > > and they claimed they wont/cant sell such parts. > >eG > > My research indicates that the DP264 motherboard and a daughtercardu wouldlK > > work.. but where to find empty motherboards? The CPU itself is rated at H > > 733MHz, but I have been led to believe that it would simply run at a lowert7 > > speed (500MHz in a DP264?) in a slower motherboard.V > >  > >e' > > Any other suggestions most welcome,n > >e > >V > >T > > Matt >  >l   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 11:52:19 +0200e* From: "R.S.H. Kwee" <rshkwee@nospam.hr.nl>5 Subject: TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-timee1 Message-ID: <acfpok$346$1@eubuf21.eu.concert.net>n  K We want to use the standard C-time routines in order to run the applicationn on VMS and on NT.c  K But now we have the problem that we receive times in VMS format (quad-word,aH 100 nsec) and we must convert it to C-time (offset 1-jan-1970, in sec.).F The C-timestructure 'timeb' stores the GM-time and a offset and in the2 calculating is also  the dayligth saving involved.I When we convert the C-time to VMS-time or the other way around, we have aa mismatch from 1 or 2 hours.u  I We have made our own routines because we didn't find standard routines inI! for example the Run Time Library.s  E Who can help us in finding the correct algoritm to convert the times?o   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 06:39:41 -0400g- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> 9 Subject: Re: TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-timea, Message-ID: <3CEB7565.6B4A9041@videotron.ca>   "R.S.H. Kwee" wrote:M > But now we have the problem that we receive times in VMS format (quad-word, J > 100 nsec) and we must convert it to C-time (offset 1-jan-1970, in sec.).  % HELP RTL LIB LIB$CVT_TO_INTERNAL_TIME  andn' HTLP RTL LIB LIB$CVT_FROM_INTERNAL_TIMEe  I Typically, you would  LIB$SUB_TIMES  of the actual time - unix epoch time:  K then you can use CVT_FROM_INTERNAL time to convert the above VMS delta time-D into seconds, which will give you seconds since the unix epoch time.   ------------------------------   Date: 22 May 2002 13:24:55 GMT1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)r9 Subject: Re: TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-timeg: Message-ID: <acg677$n1j$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  , In message <3CEB7565.6B4A9041@videotron.ca>,1   JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:o >"R.S.H. Kwee" wrote: N >> But now we have the problem that we receive times in VMS format (quad-word,K >> 100 nsec) and we must convert it to C-time (offset 1-jan-1970, in sec.).  > & >HELP RTL LIB LIB$CVT_TO_INTERNAL_TIME >and( >HTLP RTL LIB LIB$CVT_FROM_INTERNAL_TIME >CJ >Typically, you would  LIB$SUB_TIMES  of the actual time - unix epoch time >-L >then you can use CVT_FROM_INTERNAL time to convert the above VMS delta timeE >into seconds, which will give you seconds since the unix epoch time.u  O Those routines don't perform any GMT or DST correction, which was one of Kwee'srK requirements.  The standard C runtime only provides for going the other wayiG (GMT to local time), since it assumes the internal clock is always GMT.t  A I wrote a local_to_gmt() function for the OSU web server that use B the SYS$LOCALTIME file to determine the DST transitions.  I didn'tD work too hard at resolving the issues of how to convert times in theD 'non-existant' hour in the spring or 'double-play' hour in the fall.      < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929- Ohio State University        |      Internet:sL 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 17:42:25 +0200-* From: "R.S.H. Kwee" <rshkwee@nospam.hr.nl>9 Subject: Re: TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-timec1 Message-ID: <acge92$k8j$1@eubuf21.eu.concert.net>t  < "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> schreef in bericht& news:3CEB7565.6B4A9041@videotron.ca... > "R.S.H. Kwee" wrote:C > > But now we have the problem that we receive times in VMS formatl (quad-word, L > > 100 nsec) and we must convert it to C-time (offset 1-jan-1970, in sec.). > ' > HELP RTL LIB LIB$CVT_TO_INTERNAL_TIMEe > ands) > HTLP RTL LIB LIB$CVT_FROM_INTERNAL_TIME- > K > Typically, you would  LIB$SUB_TIMES  of the actual time - unix epoch time: >eH > then you can use CVT_FROM_INTERNAL time to convert the above VMS delta timeF > into seconds, which will give you seconds since the unix epoch time.  I Yes, that is what we do, but when you feed this result to C-time routinesoK and, for testing, you print the result, then you get a difference of 1 or 2lF hours (in our case, because we are GMT +1 and GMT + 2 in case of DST).C Somehow the C-time routines know the offset. I have tried to adjust1@ SYS$TIMZONE_DIFFERENTIAL and SYS$TIMEZONE_DAYLIGTHSAVING with no result......   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 14:35:19 +0100r( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>; Subject: VCB02-C (8 plane colour graphics) in a VAX 4705A ?e) Message-ID: <3CEB9E97.EBB1229D@127.0.0.1>l   1. Can this be done?  ? Is there a 'better' location for the boards, i.e. closer to thel. processor modules or at the 'end' of the QBUS?  B Will it adversely affect airflow/cooling without the RF panelling?  $ (Other modules: CXY08, KZQSA, TQK70)  F 2. As I don't have a 'proper' video/kb/mouse cable for this, if I swapG the wires for the 'red' and ground to suit a standard VAXstation cable,w& will this be OK? (I have the pinouts).  H Alternatively: Anyone have a BC18Z kicking about they can let me have in the UK?>  E (I'm prepared to try it, but I have to go to some effort retrieving amG monitor and cabling but I'd still like advice on 1. above. I could just.F get monitor and a 4000-60 workstation, but this seems like potentially more fun.) i  " FYI: Modules are M7169, M7168 x 2. --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------    Date: 22 May 2002 07:44:39 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)c' Subject: Re: Which Unix for VMS users ?r3 Message-ID: <vpEvL1ADsZ$c@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  T In article <3CEA74FE.27E40191@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: > H > Which is bizarre. IBM are ready to junk AIX (which I believe is a moreC > manageable UNIX) as soon as linux offers what AIX does. Oh, it'll,: > maintain it for those that want it, but interesting, no?  G    Poor Gartner.  They went and said AIX and Solaris were the only UNIXe5    with a future, and IBM done gone and ignored them.c   ------------------------------    Date: 22 May 2002 08:05:14 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)' Subject: Re: Which Unix for VMS users ?23 Message-ID: <VYHx8mJO$QZo@eisner.encompasserve.org>-  T In article <3CEA74FE.27E40191@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes: > Phillip Helbig wrote:t >> HI >> > So right now I'd choose between Linux, Solaris, AIX, and IRIX, but IiF >> > can't recommend any one of those over any other.  You just get to4 >> > choose between which problems you want to have.  H Given Nic's information below, and Bob's above, it looks the choices forE people wishing to go from VMS to a Unix variant have a choice betweenoH Linux or Solaris. What problems (from a VMS viewpoint) does Solaris have that Linux does not ?t   >> lG >> In my experience, AIX is the best of the above, at least from a uservG >> point of view.  (Keep in mind that, in comparing unixes, you need to B >> look at the user, programmer, and system-manager point of view.J >> Similarities, strengths etc in one area might not translate to the same >> in other areas.)v > H > Which is bizarre. IBM are ready to junk AIX (which I believe is a moreC > manageable UNIX) as soon as linux offers what AIX does. Oh, it'llh: > maintain it for those that want it, but interesting, no?  E Thanks for that piece of information; I was not aware of this. Do you $ have any references to these plans ?  = Thanks to everyone for their replies, they have been helpful.o   Simon.   --  B Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       + Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.e   ------------------------------   Date: 22 May 2002 13:54:21 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)q' Subject: Re: Which Unix for VMS users ? + Message-ID: <acg7ud$c90$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>t  3 In article <VYHx8mJO$QZo@eisner.encompasserve.org>,tE  clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes:lW |> In article <3CEA74FE.27E40191@127.0.0.1>, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> writes:  |> > Phillip Helbig wrote: |> >> L |> >> > So right now I'd choose between Linux, Solaris, AIX, and IRIX, but II |> >> > can't recommend any one of those over any other.  You just get tom7 |> >> > choose between which problems you want to have.  |> rK |> Given Nic's information below, and Bob's above, it looks the choices forfH |> people wishing to go from VMS to a Unix variant have a choice betweenK |> Linux or Solaris. What problems (from a VMS viewpoint) does Solaris haven |> that Linux does not ?  F So, can anyone here tell me why it is when Unix variants are discussedF BSD gets ignored completely??  There are versions of BSD that will runD on the hardware you currently own (VAX and Alpha), it is more stableC than Linux in most cases.  It is frequently more secure than Linux.mE And it has a world of applications including at least three differentiG Office suites.  Works great on both desktops and as servers.  They must-- be the Rodney Dangerfields of the Unix world.2   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:52:40 +0100iU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> ' Subject: Re: Which Unix for VMS users ? 0 Message-ID: <acgbqj$1ka$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:a   > "David J. Dachtera" wrote: > J >>Hhmmm... Just guessing here, but they maybe see the potential for an AIX2 >>look-alike that is not limited to IBM platforms. >> > O > I think that the computer manufacturers do not yet know what to do with LinuxtF > and want to keep their options opened by supporting it just in case. > N > One option is to give Linux away for free, but sell your proprietary add-onsK > such as clustering etc. The other is to make your proprietary Unix "LinuxaI > compatible" and offer it as a more robust, better documented and better @ > supported solution that includes stuff such as clustering etc. > M > The way I see it, IBM's venture into Linux also had a goal to show that IBM O > could move quickly and that IBM wasn't just "legacy" systems and that its 3605C > computers could run Linux with an impressive number of instances.m >     8 Most of IBM's expenditure in the Linux space has been in8 porting their existing applications to Linux and porting8 Linux to OS/400 and hosted under VM on an IBM mainframe.  8 It is interesting to note that Linux on an S390, a truly9 awfull idea has garnered more interest and headlines thani OpenVMS recently.d  C They do not appear to want to port Lunix to Power and power remains-5 the spearhead of their non mainframe server business.   5 One reason for this is that Linux does not scale muchV3 beyond 4 CPU's though peoples mileage may vary. Thee Regatta boxes support 32 CPU's.a  : So in this sense IBMs Linux strategy makes more sense even( if the execution details make it horrid.  7 Port Linux to z900's hosted under VM and try to sell itt5 as a consolidation for lots of Linux instances, dittoe5 for OS400. Use this to host horizontally scaling apps  like web farms, proxies etc.  4 Use MVS OS400 and AIX for the big vertically scaling2 servers (SMP) that have to host the DBMS backends.     Regards  Andrew Harrisonn   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.282 ************************