1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 24 May 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 286       Contents:2 Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?2 Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?F Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? Plus European langu C and PL/1 compiling together ! RE: C and PL/1 compiling together ! RE: C and PL/1 compiling together  C++ libraries for DB connection " Re: Current Version of VMS's TCPIP Re: DCPS Questions Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures  Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures  Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures  Re: Disk Failures  Re: Disk Failures  Re: Disk Failures  Re: Disk Failures  Re: Disk Failures - does Digital Networks not want any business?? 1 Re: does Digital Networks not want any business?? # Re: Downward sizing of dump files ?  Re: End of an era.) Expat anyone ? (was Re: xml and all that) - Re: Expat anyone ? (was Re: xml and all that) - Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning . Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DEC. Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DECD Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC)D Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC), Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?, Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?, Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?, Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?( Re: internet address on a Decserver 90TL: Microsoft code quality, was: Re: Forced migration to HPHUXD Re: Most unusual resident in a system ?, was: Re: No new Alpha salesD Re: Most unusual resident in a system ?, was: Re: No new Alpha salesD Re: Most unusual resident in a system ?, was: Re: No new Alpha salesD Re: Most unusual resident in a system ?, was: Re: No new Alpha salesP Re: off-topic: dubbing (was: RE: "Best" programming language on VMS for  newbie?# OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 - system lockups ' Re: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 - system lockups ' Re: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 - system lockups ' Re: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 - system lockups ' Re: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 - system lockups  OpenVMS SAN  Re: OpenVMS SAN  Re: OpenVMS SAN  Re: OpenVMS SAN  Re: OpenVMS SAN  Re: OpenVMS SAN  Re: OpenVMS SAN  Re: OpenVMS SAN ! Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C % Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C % Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C  Realtime Performance Re: Realtime Performance# Re: Replacing ALL-IN-1 applications ) Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ) Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ) Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ) RE: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ) Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ( SCSI cluster and Memory Channel question, Re: SCSI cluster and Memory Channel question Show cluster not working Re: Show cluster not working RE: Show cluster not working Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?  Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug? / Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ?? / Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ?? / Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ?? / Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ?? / Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ?? / Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ??  Re: smtp, firewalls and NAT ? US-GA-Atlanta OpenVMS job listing, Sales/Account Representative # Re: VMS Clusters with FDDI/Ethernet # Re: VMS Clusters with FDDI/Ethernet # Re: VMS Clusters with FDDI/Ethernet  Re: Which Unix for VMS users ? Re: Which Unix for VMS users ? Re: Which Unix for VMS users ? Re: Who cares about marketing!; Re: [Change topic (agian)]:  USofA'an states and languages.  [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # RE: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # RE: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 24 May 2002 07:26:05 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall) ; Subject: Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? 5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-vTy9JnYIxL53@localhost>   D On Wed, 22 May 2002 22:49:26 UTC, Brass Christof <welcome@spam.not>  wrote:   > Phillip Helbig wrote:  >  > [SNIP] > D > > Sounds about right.  Even better are countries like Finland, theJ > > Scandinavian countries, the Low Countries etc.  The educational systemL > > is probably a bit better than in Germany and, BIG DIFFERENCE, televisionK > > and cinema are usually not dubbed, whereas in Germany they usually are. G > > (Dubbing, as an alternative to subtitling, was actually invented in L > > southern Italy back in the 1930s since there were some illiterate peopleK > > in the audience.  Thus, rather embarrassing that Germany continues with J > > this practice today.  To be fair, it's not all idealism in the case ofK > > non-dubbing countries: since dubbing is much more expensive, it is only 8 > > worth the trouble for relatively large populations.) > 8 > Strange. I learned that dubbing was forced by Hitler.  > Anyway, dubbing is a crime.   F Well I can't watch Jimmy Stewart or John Wayne dubbed :-) Newer stuff B is obviously less of a problem. If I watch X-Files in the UK, for " example, it almost sounds wrong...  E To get back on-topic. Our group programs VMS in Fortran, Macro-32, C  F and a bit of Pascal. (Not to forget DCL). We communicate in whichever , language is appropriate, German or English.    Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 07:41:19 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) ; Subject: Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? 3 Message-ID: <gJ2eSDumVFrH@eisner.encompasserve.org>   N In article <3CED1E7E.4090605@hp.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes:I > Here in Boston, once you get inside of US Customs all signs are mostly  ? > in English only.  Not very friendly for non-English speakers.   F    Many visitors have commented on the sole use of English in AmericanF    "International" airports.  Unfortunately "International" only means;    the presence of customs, not an actual attempt toward an     international audience.  B > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them!  5    Sure they do.  Every one has the year right on it.   H    You mean "ONE DIME" isn't part of the international lexicon yet?  8-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 04:59:26 -0400   From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>O Subject: Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? Plus European langu 4 Message-ID: <1020524045650.353A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  & On 23 May 2002, Bill Gunshannon wrote:  0 > In article <3CED102A.D42D55B0@mindspring.com>,7 >  Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:  > |>  J > |> I doubt that "I'm gonna get them doors open if it hair lips everybody1 > |> on Bear Creek" translates all that well. :-)  > F > Your probably right.  I'm a native born American speaker and I don't0 > have a clue what that's supposed to mean.  :-) >  > bill  < I believe it requires a large pair of lineman's pliers and a= cowboy hat.  (The hare (?) lips are due to few rems above the  limit of plutonium exposure.)    --   John Santos  Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 07:38:45 -0700, From: bubbapig@hotmail.com (Jeffrey Cameron)& Subject: C and PL/1 compiling together= Message-ID: <b22333b7.0205240638.6277dd84@posting.google.com>    Here is my problem:   F I am trying to integrate a module re-written in C++ back into a largerF PL/1 program. The real problem is with a global array which is kept in6 the PL/1 part which i need to access from my C++ code.   The PL/1 array:    dcl 1 invreca(8) external,       2 nameC       /* there are other members of this structure, total structure  size is 600 bytes */  & in my C++ module I am currently using:   extern invRecord invreca[];   > to reference this array, where invRecord is C structure set up- _exactly_ as the structure in the PL/1 array.   < However when I link this I get UNDEFINED SYMBOL warnings. ItB apparently cannot see the members of the PL/1 global symbol table.  D How can I get my C++ program to recognize this? Is it even possible?F My supervisor seems to think they will integrate cleanly and from what+ I have read this appears to be the case ...   C p.s. I am compiling with optimisations off and float set to D_FLOAT ( (required by the old program I am using)  E p.p.s. any references to OpenVMS documentation on this stuff would be D greatly appreciated as well, I haven't been able to find any myself.   Thanks in advance  Jeff   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:36:13 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> * Subject: RE: C and PL/1 compiling together9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEOEFAAA.tom@kednos.com>   = PL/I maps the name to upper case, what is the name in the C++  module?    >-----Original Message----- 4 >From: Jeffrey Cameron [mailto:bubbapig@hotmail.com]# >Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 7:39 AM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com' >Subject: C and PL/1 compiling together  >  >  >Here is my problem: > G >I am trying to integrate a module re-written in C++ back into a larger G >PL/1 program. The real problem is with a global array which is kept in 7 >the PL/1 part which i need to access from my C++ code.  >  >The PL/1 array: >  >dcl 1 invreca(8) external, 
 >      2 name D >      /* there are other members of this structure, total structure >size is 600 bytes */  > ' >in my C++ module I am currently using:  >  >extern invRecord invreca[]; > ? >to reference this array, where invRecord is C structure set up . >_exactly_ as the structure in the PL/1 array. > = >However when I link this I get UNDEFINED SYMBOL warnings. It C >apparently cannot see the members of the PL/1 global symbol table.  > E >How can I get my C++ program to recognize this? Is it even possible? G >My supervisor seems to think they will integrate cleanly and from what , >I have read this appears to be the case ... > D >p.s. I am compiling with optimisations off and float set to D_FLOAT) >(required by the old program I am using)  > F >p.p.s. any references to OpenVMS documentation on this stuff would beE >greatly appreciated as well, I haven't been able to find any myself.  >  >Thanks in advance >Jeff  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:22:48 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> * Subject: RE: C and PL/1 compiling together9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIAEOIFAAA.tom@kednos.com>   A One other tip, is that we discovered with later C compilers, that A we had to compile with /nomember_alignment, if you have any other ! problems, you can email me direct    >-----Original Message----- 4 >From: Jeffrey Cameron [mailto:bubbapig@hotmail.com]# >Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 7:39 AM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com' >Subject: C and PL/1 compiling together  >  >  >Here is my problem: > G >I am trying to integrate a module re-written in C++ back into a larger G >PL/1 program. The real problem is with a global array which is kept in 7 >the PL/1 part which i need to access from my C++ code.  >  >The PL/1 array: >  >dcl 1 invreca(8) external, 
 >      2 name D >      /* there are other members of this structure, total structure >size is 600 bytes */  > ' >in my C++ module I am currently using:  >  >extern invRecord invreca[]; > ? >to reference this array, where invRecord is C structure set up . >_exactly_ as the structure in the PL/1 array. > = >However when I link this I get UNDEFINED SYMBOL warnings. It C >apparently cannot see the members of the PL/1 global symbol table.  > E >How can I get my C++ program to recognize this? Is it even possible? G >My supervisor seems to think they will integrate cleanly and from what , >I have read this appears to be the case ... > D >p.s. I am compiling with optimisations off and float set to D_FLOAT) >(required by the old program I am using)  > F >p.p.s. any references to OpenVMS documentation on this stuff would beE >greatly appreciated as well, I haven't been able to find any myself.  >  >Thanks in advance >Jeff  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:53:55 +0200 1 From: JeffM <Jeffrey.Mutonho@softwarefutures.com> ( Subject: C++ libraries for DB connection2 Message-ID: <3CEE1BC3.7020504@softwarefutures.com>  > Are there any C++ libraries /wrappers for database connectionsC that can vindicate one from using bind variables and doing the old   fashioned way?   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 06:12:10 GMT 0 From: "Matt Muggeridge" <Matt.Muggeridge@hp.com>+ Subject: Re: Current Version of VMS's TCPIP @ Message-ID: <_QkH8.171475$o66.509266@news-server.bigpond.net.au>  I Not sure how long it will take to have the docs show up.  The info on New I Features and Enhancements is contained in the release notes.  If you have J received the kit, then you can extract the release notes.  ($ HELP PRODUCT	 EXTRACT).   G If you are still waiting for the kit, I have cut-n-paste the high level  bullets for you here.    New Features and Changes ----------------------------- E This chapter describes the new features of Compaq TCP/IP Services for H OpenVMS Version 5.3. For more information about configuring and managingK these services, see the Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Management guide 7 provided with the TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS software.      NoteL ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----K TCP/IP Services V5.3 is a direct upgrade from Version 5.1. Version 5.2 is a  limited release.  G Table 1-1 lists the new features of TCP/IP Services Version 5.3 and the  sections that describe them.  B Table 1-1 TCP/IP for OpenVMS Version 5.3 Features Feature  SectionI ------------------------------------------------------------------------- < New Kernel Code Base                             Section 1.1C NTP Version 4                                           Section 1.2 B BIND Version 9                                         Section 1.3H IMAP                                                         Section 1.4> Kerberos for TELNET                                Section 1.5< SYSCONFIGTAB                                     Section 1.62 HELP for Startup and Shutdown Messages Section 1.7@ LPD Cluster Support                                  Section 1.8; UNIX Services Database File                     Section 1.9 8 NFS Support for Extended File Spec.         Section 1.105 FTP Server/Client Support for UNIX paths Section 1.11 6 Configuring UserWritten Network Services  Section 1.12H ------------------------------------------------------------------------   Matt.    --= -------------------------------------------------------------  OpenVMS TCP/IP Engineering Enterprise Computing Group Hewlett-Packard Company  Gold Coast, AUSTRALIA = -------------------------------------------------------------     = "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote in message & news:ack9aj112ol@enews1.newsguy.com...- > Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com> wrote: % > >> When will TCPIP 5.3 be released.  > K > > TCP/IP Services V5.3 is shipping now.  It's on the Q2 Software Products4 > > Library CDs. > G > When will the manuals show up on the documentation site?  Alternatly,n where 7 > can one find a list of new features and enhancements?B >" > Zane   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:41:00 -0400t; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>c Subject: Re: DCPS Questionsr$ Message-ID: <3cee7b08$1@news.si.com>  3 >When I Telnet to each at port 9100, the HP answersn1 >a ^T as expected, but the Xerox doesn't (I guesse >this bodes ill for the Xerox).   L JetDirect cards all use port 9100.  Xerox printers generally use lpr/lpd forG their network communications.  DCPS can't do lpr/lpd.  We solved all ofDI these problems by using ScriptServer from GreyMatter Software.  It can do E everything DCPS can do and also work with lpr/lpd.  It can handle any J Postscript, HPGL, or QMS printer no matter how it's connected (you have toK know how your printer connects, however, so you can tell ScriptServer whicht method to use).t --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comaA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comt= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevente< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:48:10 +0200a- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>o& Subject: Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures' Message-ID: <3CEE52AA.4C889581@Free.fr>r  & today: http://212.129.54.17/decus_lyon     ">>> ^P" wrote:u >  > Link seems to be down.   --  2   ------------------------------------------------2 MORANDI Consultants  http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr0   19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.2 Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax: +33 (0)5 6154 19282 OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans1 Visit: http://www.softresint.com/AlphaMigrate.htmh2 --------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:37:35 GMTn1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>p& Subject: Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures9 Message-ID: <37tH8.3417$d51.1166924@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>i  : "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message! news:3CEE52AA.4C889581@Free.fr... ( > today: http://212.129.54.17/decus_lyon  I The link is alive and well today. Some great photos therein. One erratum: J Shannon Knows Perrier, not wine. Excellent shot of Rich M. pitching VMS to the masses, though!l  , Thanks for putting the photos up on the Web!   Terry Shannon (knows Stuff)e   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:34:00 +0200h- From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>r& Subject: Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures' Message-ID: <3CEE7989.4B432C08@Free.fr>t   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:t > < > "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message# > news:3CEE52AA.4C889581@Free.fr...C* > > today: http://212.129.54.17/decus_lyon  3 http://dtl.dnsalias.net/decus_lyon should work too.C  K > The link is alive and well today. Some great photos therein. One erratum:t# > Shannon Knows Perrier, not wine. R   Fixed.  . > Thanks for putting the photos up on the Web!  1 u'r welcome, t'wuz a pleasure to see ya again :-)    D. -- e2   ------------------------------------------------2 MORANDI Consultants  http://Didier.Morandi.Free.fr0   19 chemin de la Butte, 31400 Toulouse, France.2 Tel.: +33 (0)6 7983 6418 - Fax: +33 (0)5 6154 19282 OpenVMS, APPLE, Computer Security, Migration plans1 Visit: http://www.softresint.com/AlphaMigrate.htmC2 --------------------------------------------------   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:34:03 +0100 ( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Disk Failures) Message-ID: <3CEDDEDB.1F8998F1@127.0.0.1>    Jack Trachtman wrote:a > G > This year we purchased a Compaq SAN, including 84 of the new 36GB 15Kg > rpm disk drives. > ? > So far we have replaced 17 of the disks as they have startingo" > generating (recoverable) errors. > F > Compaq has escalated this to Fujitsu but has not received a response& > as to the high error (failure) rate. > 8 > Does anyone else have any experience with these disks?  F Speaking from experience* of putting Fujitsu disks to replace RA81s onF systems, the Fuji's had a WORSE reliability problem, in my experience.  H So heavy, I was convinced they were formed from black hole material, and/ ran hot enough to fry a full English breakfast.i  G *After my bad experience, when I joined my new employer, I advised them H of my fears as they were making the purchase. They made it anyway and weF saw the same problems. Ho hum. The huge 'Eagles' seemed OK, it was theB smaller form factor (5.25 inch?) 23xx series (different drives and9 models) that gave grief. Nice photographic film though...s -- e( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comi   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:41:23 +0100e( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Disk Failures) Message-ID: <3CEDE093.A20D5E2C@127.0.0.1>    Nic Clews wrote:   Bad practice but...   H > Speaking from experience* of putting Fujitsu disks to replace RA81s onH > systems, the Fuji's had a WORSE reliability problem, in my experience.  E The RA81 issues were sorted by DEC, I just wanted to make that clear.l   --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot como   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 03:09:19 -0400w- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>t Subject: Re: Disk Failures, Message-ID: <3CEDE716.4A91A29B@videotron.ca>   Nic Clews wrote:H > Speaking from experience* of putting Fujitsu disks to replace RA81s onH > systems, the Fuji's had a WORSE reliability problem, in my experience.    L I have had a 5.25" Fujitsu 67-meg drive in my microvax II for about 12 yearsJ now. Not a problem with it. Meanwhile a 250meg drive from apple next to it failed last year.   F On my mac, I had a lot of failures initially. Including a (then) brandM spanking new 2 gig  high performance drive (for recording video) which failedtL within a week. Since I reversed the 2 fans to push air in the mac instead of( pulling it out, I haven't had a failure.  K My philosophy is to buy the previous generation, not the brand spanking newoM one that pushes the envelope even further, as well as ensuring ventilation iss more than adequate.t  J When I worked at a bank, my vaxe were next to a Tandem Cyclone. And it wasM called that for a reason since it had huge fan capacity. The Tandem technicalrN rep explained that by having lots of air movement, it was less critical to theG machine if the computer room air conditioning failed since the high air:6 movement would still keep the electronics cool enough.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:42:15 +0100e( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: Disk Failures) Message-ID: <3CEDEED7.BE073669@127.0.0.1>D   JF Mezei wrote:  > Nic Clews wrote:J > > Speaking from experience* of putting Fujitsu disks to replace RA81s onJ > > systems, the Fuji's had a WORSE reliability problem, in my experience. > N > I have had a 5.25" Fujitsu 67-meg drive in my microvax II for about 12 yearsL > now. Not a problem with it. Meanwhile a 250meg drive from apple next to it > failed last year.   C Ahhhh. I do recall having a very reliable Fuji on a PDP11. It was aaC 200ish MB partitioned into a pair of 67 MB emulating RM03. The RM03rB failed one during the several years lifetime, the Fuji never had a problem.  . The ones I refer to were (around) 800 MB SCSI.  H > On my mac, I had a lot of failures initially. Including a (then) brandO > spanking new 2 gig  high performance drive (for recording video) which failed.N > within a week. Since I reversed the 2 fans to push air in the mac instead of* > pulling it out, I haven't had a failure.  D That's a very good point. When we used DECSITE to move systems, theyG commented on airflow, and turned the systems so the exhaust was towardsnE the intakes of the aircon. After that reliability improved, but stillh wasn't perfect.a  M > My philosophy is to buy the previous generation, not the brand spanking newxO > one that pushes the envelope even further, as well as ensuring ventilation ist > more than adequate.s > L > When I worked at a bank, my vaxe were next to a Tandem Cyclone. And it wasO > called that for a reason since it had huge fan capacity. The Tandem technicallP > rep explained that by having lots of air movement, it was less critical to theI > machine if the computer room air conditioning failed since the high aira8 > movement would still keep the electronics cool enough.  > Now that is what I call engineering. The basic rule is that ifA electronics get too hot to touch, then they get towards prematurenE failure temperature. Except in an oven, air rarely gets that hot evenb when ACUs fail. Clever.l   -- h( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot com    ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 10:32:45 -0700$ From: JKoska@bender.com (John Koska) Subject: Re: Disk Failures= Message-ID: <aa5ec19e.0205240932.7861ebc7@posting.google.com>   s Jack.Trachtman@vmmc.org (Jack Trachtman) wrote in message news:<69d784c4.0205231138.1acdce10@posting.google.com>...aG > This year we purchased a Compaq SAN, including 84 of the new 36GB 15K. > rpm disk drives. > ? > So far we have replaced 17 of the disks as they have startinga" > generating (recoverable) errors. > F > Compaq has escalated this to Fujitsu but has not received a response& > as to the high error (failure) rate. > 8 > Does anyone else have any experience with these disks?  B A long shot, since the other posters seem to offer data on Fujitsu
 drives, but..   F You indicate a SAN, and hence HSG80's maybe?  It may not be the disks,F but the HSG80's.  There are several firmware patches to the V8.6?-4 to= the HSG80's, and I believe one of them dealt with disk drivess< inappropriately showing errors and dropping out of RAIDsets.   :) jck
 John Koska   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:35:34 GMTs From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGe6 Subject: does Digital Networks not want any business??0 Message-ID: <00A0E67E.013974B5@SendSpamHere.ORG>  C I've been trying to contact DNPG about some equipment price quotes.r  B Sales@ and every email address from prior conversations with folksD at DNPG have been rejected by their mail handler.  Does anybody hereB have an address that will get me in contact with somebody at DNPG?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMa            e5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:21:59 +0200n) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl>a: Subject: Re: does Digital Networks not want any business??/ Message-ID: <3CEE68A7.8040500@xs4all.nospam.nl>w   system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:E > I've been trying to contact DNPG about some equipment price quotes.- > D > Sales@ and every email address from prior conversations with folksF > at DNPG have been rejected by their mail handler.  Does anybody hereD > have an address that will get me in contact with somebody at DNPG? >  > --Q > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMf
 >            t7 >   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" l >     F Did you try http://www.dnpg.com ? OK, I confess, I didn't try it with B any browser on OpenVMS. Digging a little bit further reveals that 4 DigitalProducts@dnpg.com could be a working address.   HTH,  	 Bart Zorng   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 00:32:57 -0700# From: pmartyn@csc.com (Phil Martyn)b, Subject: Re: Downward sizing of dump files ?= Message-ID: <23088ca1.0205232332.2e3e8e16@posting.google.com>   : Thanks to all. Advice gratefully received. Problem sorted.   PM   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:08:26 -0400 > From: Charlie McCutcheon <charlie.mccutcheon@NOSPAMcompaq.com> Subject: Re: End of an era.c0 Message-ID: <3CEE576A.B93C4450@NOSPAMcompaq.com>   "Leigh G. Bowden" wrote:  M > Well the time is soon approaching when 50+ OpenVMS VAX and AXP machines areiL > going to be made redundant and replaced with new Win 2000 system. The restI > of the OpenVMS systems will be made redundant over the next year or so.  >MI > Just to keep my hand in do people know if there are any books availablehK > (ISBN numbers preferably) covering; VMS Basic, RMS, System Management andi > any other interesting ones.F  I Assuming you want VMS documentation, much of it is available online undert  http://www.openvms.compaq.com/ .  * Look under the OpenVMS Documentation link.   Charlien   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:06:27 +0100m4 From: "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk>2 Subject: Expat anyone ? (was Re: xml and all that)B Message-ID: <1022249186.23815.0.nnrp-12.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk>  I > There are a couple complications (of course).  One is C++, if you don'tt ownw > a compilerL > and have some c++ knowledge available you are stuck, although the c++ code > can-G > be minimal if you wrap it in C.  Also the HPQ (c++) xerces library isJ   That would be my problem then.> I've a copy of C (DECC) on our VMS box, but I haven't got C++.  J Another alternative could be expat, which looks OK, but I fall foul of the0 total absence of support for 'configure' on VMS.J I tried compiling directly - some modules were OK, but others were missing some .h files.H Has anyone done anything with expat on openvms, or know where to start ?L I tried running configure on our Sun, to see what it creates, but it noticed( the absence of a C compiler and gave up.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:04:21 -0500oC From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com>.6 Subject: Re: Expat anyone ? (was Re: xml and all that)H Message-ID: <craig.berry-4A0C63.10042124052002@news.directvinternet.com>  B In article <1022249186.23815.0.nnrp-12.9e989e7e@news.demon.co.uk>,6  "Chris Sharman" <chris.sharman@ccagroup.co.uk> wrote:  J > Has anyone done anything with expat on openvms, or know where to start ?N > I tried running configure on our Sun, to see what it creates, but it noticed* > the absence of a C compiler and gave up.  G expat has been ported to VMS by Martin Vorlaender.  I think all he did  D was create a descrip.mms and tweak some long symbols in one of the  A include files.  I included his port in the Perl kit available at tB <ftp://www.sidhe.org/perlbuild.zip> since it is the basis for the > XML::Parser Perl extension (also included there).  Just unzip H perlbuild.zip, then unzip the file [.perlbuild]libraries.zip and you'll H have a VMS-buildable version of expat.  You'll need MMS or the freeware  MMK.  D If you just want to patch the kit you've already got, the diffs are  available here:1  H <http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/vmsperl/2001-01/msg00032.html>   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:43:48 GMT , From: "Bob Knowles" <bob.knowles@compaq.com>6 Subject: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX - Storm Warning0 Message-ID: <83nH8.4$Qp.107621@news.cpqcorp.net>  F In case people get too excited about this story after reading only theE opening words, they refer (as the article makes clear) to Newnham - acL college that constitutes a tiny part of the University of Cambridge - not to6 some mythical institution called 'Cambridge College').   brA "Carl Karcher" <karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu> wrote in messagee0 news:23MAY02.14411704@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu...H > In a previous article, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") wrote:- >-H > ->On the other hand, if a new, crippling virus every week doesn't even dissuadeI > ->people from running Outlook, why should terrorist attacks do it?  ...- >-. > Here's published case where it actually has: >y% >  http://www.vnunet.com/News/1131823  >s, > Microsoft software expelled by top college > By Steve Ranger [22-05-2002] >oD > Cambridge college bans Outlook and Outlook Express due to security
 > concerns .h .i .n   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:47:55 GMT . From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER)7 Subject: Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DECe3 Message-ID: <%DqH8.56373$ze7.623131@news.chello.at>-  e In article <acjlfr$7d1$1@fizban.pprd.abbott.com>, "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> writes:nK >Might I suggest writing to the people previously mentioned at hp with your>& >views.  They do seem to be listening.  L You may, but OTOH, I was told that my statements are often not enough politeH even in my native language (you know, I'm a frustrated technician, not aI brain washed politician) and I've currently also no company value to backlH up my statements with actions, so I think, I better don't write a letter	 just now.w   -Peter  M PS: Or someone (english native speaker preferred) writes such a polite lettero4 with my opionions for me and let me only sign it ;-) --   Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER % Network and OpenVMS system specialiste E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:50:10 -0500P& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com>7 Subject: Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DECR8 Message-ID: <s6kseu00fdo90593ihbj8d4b2sepqq6f59@4ax.com>  , On Thu, 23 May 2002 16:35:20 -0400, JF Mezei% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:1  
 >jlsue wrote:i   >MI >> grab something 1 or 2 years ago and re-post it and nobody'd be able toe >> tell the difference.5 >FN >That should tell you that Digital, Compaq and now HP don't even bother to fixM >the problems that irritate the customers and that the problems keep going on- >and on and on.l  A You can't possibly have enough info to state "... and now HP...".TD HP has many, many things to deal with to complete the merger.  ThereD hasn't been enough time to take any actions on anything yet that can indicate any future directions.   > And it's not exactly fair to discredit those who are trying toD communicate some visible changes by using the term "apologists".  We@ are seeing different attitudes internally and disseminating thatD information.  If we observe some positive activity, we want to shareC it with the folks in cov because we also share a common tie to VMS.eE It's up to the individuals reading these messages if/how they want toyE act on this information.  None of us can blame them for a "we'll justeE have to wait and see" attitude.  And we also share their frustrationst of the last few years activity.l  A But, at least these people have concrete observations to present,oD whereas you are only spouting personal opinion based on nothing new.  1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaqi- (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)r   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:01:25 GMTt( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>M Subject: Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC):+ Message-ID: <3CEE723B.4BDD655F@pacbell.net>l   JF Mezei wrote:s >  > Greg Cagle wrote: / > > Correct - Scott reports to Peter Blackmore.h >  > or so we have: >  > Gorham
 > Marcello
 > Stallard > Blackmore  > + > but what is between Blackmore and Carly ?' >  > Is Capellas in between ?  M Maybe someone at HP can supply an org chart. I thought Capellas was President  with Carly as CEO.   1. Carly	CEO	never heard of VMS9H 2. Capellas	Pres	heard of VMS, but still thinks it's some flavor of UnixA 3. Blackmore	SVP	just heard he's in charge of somthing called VMSn 4. Stallard	SVP	???// 5. Marcello	VP	knows VMS enough to be dangerous- -- -   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San Francisco    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:12:16 GMT.1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>EM Subject: Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC)s4 Message-ID: <QvuH8.9$4g7.13159@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>  5 "Don Sykes" <annonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in message % news:3CEE723B.4BDD655F@pacbell.net...i <snip> >a! > 1. Carly CEO never heard of VMSlJ > 2. Capellas Pres heard of VMS, but still thinks it's some flavor of UnixC > 3. Blackmore SVP just heard he's in charge of somthing called VMSs > 4. Stallard SVP ???o1 > 5. Marcello VP knows VMS enough to be dangerousA  F I would not discount Mr. Blackmore's knowledge of VMS to this great anJ extent. The guy seemed pretty knowledgeable when I spoke with him about it last December.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 05:15:14 -0400j  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>5 Subject: Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?y4 Message-ID: <1020524050513.353B-100000@Ives.egh.com>  5 On Thu, 23 May 2002 norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:c   >  > John,)I > Not to put too fine a point on it, but we all know that V7.3 introducedhI > "new fuctionality" and thus became more than just another dash release,aH > and fudging the name of the release will not responsibly address that.M > I believe full requalification was not needed for a patched V7.2, but wouldaC > be for a V7.3, even though (as stated elsewhere) it may well work:
 > unmodified.e > -Norm   C Sorry, I should have used a smiley ;-)  I agree with the above, but B my real question is "Is it (in real life) typically more difficultA to qualify an application with a new major release of VMS (ratherkD than other O/S's which pay less attention to upwards compatibility),B than it is to qualify with a minor release?"  Don't you have to go< through all your test suites, etc. just the same either way?  @ Oh, and isn't mini-merge new functionality, and thus appropriateA for a major release rather than a dash release?  (Of course, they > are apparently releasing it as a PATCH, but they have probably4 done the major preparatory work in V7.3 and V7.3-1.)  : BTW, I still think you should be beating on your 3rd party vendor.u  6 > John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> on 05/22/2002 11:03:49 PM > . > Please respond to John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> >  > To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > cc:y: > Subject:    Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?   [snip]  7 I'm assuming your refering to the part below, which wasI meant tongue-in-cheek.  6 > Maybe VMS should never release a V7.4 (or V8.0), but9 > make the next release be V7.2-3 (identical in every wayr3 > with V7.3-1, except for the version number stringh3 > printed by "show system") and all future versionsi7 > be both V7.2-x and V7.3-y, where x=y+2, and increasesm > step without limit?a     -- o John Santoss Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:07:06 -0400m  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com5 Subject: Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?n? Message-ID: <OF61C6969A.1C345006-ON85256BC3.00427685@metso.com>e   Robert,-G Thank you for an excellent suggestion.  The vendor _is_ on the partnersr page.  -Norms        F rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) on 05/23/2002 09:29:15 PM  > Please respond to rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:u8 Subject:    Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?    ? In article <OFF3449C80.B32A13E1-ON85256BC2.0066CC96@metso.com>,"! norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:x   >Rob,b > I >Thanks for the continuing dialog.  My reason for wanting the backport is  >not becauseG >I as a customer am too conservative to rush to upgrade (although I may  be), >butF >because my 3rd-party supplier will not commit to support V7.3*.  That
 >supplier hasdD >not said whether or not this app will run on V7.3* or if there is a >documented reasonH >why it will not run, just that there are no plans to qualify it.  That, >too, may change.) >a >-Norm  F Note that Compaq (oops, HP) has VMS "customer engagement" labs stocked> with VMS systems.  Customers and ISVs can arrange for time forC benchmarking, tuning, and testing their applications.  The labs aretH staffed with folks who do the setup and logistical work.  It is possible+ for customers to do their testing remotely.x  I If your supplier needs some support qualifying the product on V7.3*, prodd them to contact the lab folks.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:19:24 -0400   From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com5 Subject: Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported? ? Message-ID: <OF67CA1140.A1B10B3E-ON85256BC3.0043296C@metso.com>    John, G Sorry that I missed an invisible smiley (insert invisible smiley here).fK I guess a take a more liberal view of mini-merge, at least.  It is only newrK to this controller; it is already successfully implemented on others in thenD family.  That appears to make it more of an upgrade than totally newG functionality, although the reality is of course, that any change needscK requalification.  It is always a question of risk assessment and the soundsm4 or quiet of those who precede you in implementation. -Normt        4 John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> on 05/24/2002 05:15:14 AM  , Please respond to John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:-8 Subject:    Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?    5 On Thu, 23 May 2002 norm.raphael@jamesbury.com wrote:    >c > John,4I > Not to put too fine a point on it, but we all know that V7.3 introducedaI > "new fuctionality" and thus became more than just another dash release,.H > and fudging the name of the release will not responsibly address that.G > I believe full requalification was not needed for a patched V7.2, butt wouldeC > be for a V7.3, even though (as stated elsewhere) it may well workl
 > unmodified.j > -Normh  C Sorry, I should have used a smiley ;-)  I agree with the above, but B my real question is "Is it (in real life) typically more difficultA to qualify an application with a new major release of VMS (rather D than other O/S's which pay less attention to upwards compatibility),B than it is to qualify with a minor release?"  Don't you have to go< through all your test suites, etc. just the same either way?  @ Oh, and isn't mini-merge new functionality, and thus appropriateA for a major release rather than a dash release?  (Of course, they > are apparently releasing it as a PATCH, but they have probably4 done the major preparatory work in V7.3 and V7.3-1.)  : BTW, I still think you should be beating on your 3rd party vendor.   6 > John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> on 05/22/2002 11:03:49 PM > . > Please respond to John Santos <JOHN@egh.com> >i > To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > cc:t: > Subject:    Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?   [snip]  7 I'm assuming your refering to the part below, which wasp meant tongue-in-cheek.  6 > Maybe VMS should never release a V7.4 (or V8.0), but9 > make the next release be V7.2-3 (identical in every way 3 > with V7.3-1, except for the version number string 3 > printed by "show system") and all future versionsn7 > be both V7.2-x and V7.3-y, where x=y+2, and increasesn > step without limit?D     -- John Santoss Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:15:18 GMT / From: brooks@cuebid.zko.dec.nospam (Rob Brooks)v5 Subject: Re: HSG80 Mini-merge, will it be backported?h- Message-ID: <UxD8TIVEB4gx@cuebid.zko.dec.com>    Norm writes: >  > John,oI > Sorry that I missed an invisible smiley (insert invisible smiley here). M > I guess a take a more liberal view of mini-merge, at least.  It is only newnM > to this controller; it is already successfully implemented on others in theoF > family.  That appears to make it more of an upgrade than totally newI > functionality, although the reality is of course, that any change needsoM > requalification.  It is always a question of risk assessment and the sounds 6 > or quiet of those who precede you in implementation.  N This is completely new functionality for the HSG controllers!  The differencesG between the HSG and the  HSC/HSJ are staggering.  It really requires anrI awful lot of work -- as I said earlier, it's not even complete yet; if itrF was, it would be included directly with V7.3-1.  It isn't acccurate to/ consider the HSG as part of the HSC/HSJ family.a  D If you need any help with your vendor in getting them to qualify on ( more recent version of VMS, let us know.   						--RobO   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:45:22 -0400 - From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>e1 Subject: Re: internet address on a Decserver 90TLe5 Message-ID: <acljmp$qh0t3$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>w  @ "John McLachlan" <jmclachlan@nospam.draper.com> wrote in message8 news:jmclachlan-3EDBAC.14235917052002@news.draper.com...B > > So, this is the system chosen to be replaced.  Is your company
 publicallyB > > traded.  I don't think I want to hold any of their stock.  Bad management.m >aA > Actually, good management.    Back inthe days, VMS software wasr exhorbantly2L > expensive (dunno how it is now).   The 3rd part tools we used were upwards ofH > $50K for just a compiler.   The same tools for a PC are 2-3K.  So it's hard toe  K Good management would have looked at the costs today. A single user licenseeG on a VMS system is very competative with a single user license on a PC. L Management should not compare an unlimited user license on VMS with a singleL user license on a PC, I've seen sales critters do that, but someone needs toJ tell management that the numbers they are being shown are comparing apples and oranges.  L > justify the expense.    Besides, a lot of the 3rd party tools just gave up onK > VMS, so we can't even get new versions any more, so our hands are tied...b >...  L Talk to the vendors, tell them that buying their product on a PC is going toK cost you additional staff to babysit the PC's and also cost you in terms of 	 downtime.    -- Peter WeaverL Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer, nor theK company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it sub-contracts to.m   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 07:10:34 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)C Subject: Microsoft code quality, was: Re: Forced migration to HPHUX@3 Message-ID: <X$Sw5EDWKplp@eisner.encompasserve.org>c  a In article <uuNMLkEA4bmy@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:  > In article <00A0E520.93F1BF46@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:p >>  N >> James Allchin appears to have just testified - with a straight face - that N >> the proposed antitrust-violation remedy of sharing Windows source code withP >> the states that are suing it would be a national security risk since it wouldK >> expose serious security holes in the OS, which is being used in various   >> military applications.  >> iN >> This is curiously plausible, except for the obvious question of _why_ it's N >> being used in various military applications.  But I never heard crappy code* >> quality used as a legal defense before. >> 1 > B > 	I would argue the quality of the code itself is probably prettyG > 	good.  It really is a design issue.  People use paint and one person . > 	is a painter another person is an artist.   >   G I don't know if you are a programmer Rob, but I would disagree with the4I above and say that it's both Microsoft code quality _and_ design that aret security problems.  I Looking at the Microsoft security bulletins shows that a major portion ofcE the security issues are due to buffer overflows. That is a quality of 6 coding issue, and little or nothing to do with design.  C Of course, they could always start using programming languages that C make it harder for you to write code with buffer overflow problems.e  F If they carry on using C, then it would be nice if all buffer code had@ range checks built into it. I know that any C code I write does.   Simon.   -- eB Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       + Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:32:54 +01001U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>]M Subject: Re: Most unusual resident in a system ?, was: Re: No new Alpha saleso0 Message-ID: <aclium$in9$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:   > In article <acb9om$ghq$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes: >  >5@ >>As I said earlier bad example try something else, incedentally= >>why are you trumpeting a result where the GS320 (the worlds ; >>fastest server if you believe Compaq) is actually 3rd ande; >>less than 5% faster than a much smaller, much cheaper IBMn@ >>which didn't have to use OPS to get a decent result. You would* >>seem to be running out of feet to shoot. >> >> > > > 	I said competitive, I didn't say leader.  That comes later. >     ; Since when did being 3rd or 4th in terms of performance out > of 4 vendors who have published results and the most expensive: out of the 4 vendors who have published results constitute being competitive.  = No one except a spin doctor of your abilites would even think   of trying to justify this claim.     >  >>>	Please.  Give me a break.  >>>l >>6 >>If you prove that yopu deserve one then you will get >>one at the moment you don't. >> >> > 	 > 	Prove?- >     6 Yup, stop posting BS and I will give you a break, keep( it up and I will keep on correcting you.  7 Somehow given that you brought me into this group as ane5 active poster because of your eBay BS all those years ) ago I doubt that you will take my advice.z     > 8 >>You need to do much better than the tired TPC-C mantra' >>that you and Kerry keep trotting out.r >> >  > 	Works though.    : Only for you and Kerry, does anyone else out there beleive you ?t     Regardsd   Andrew Harrisonb   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 10:31:40 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)oM Subject: Re: Most unusual resident in a system ?, was: Re: No new Alpha salesm3 Message-ID: <TZxuNxhP6URR@eisner.encompasserve.org>e   In article <aclium$in9$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes: >    >> e9 >>>You need to do much better than the tired TPC-C mantran( >>>that you and Kerry keep trotting out. >>>e >> t >> 	Works though.n >  > < > Only for you and Kerry, does anyone else out there beleive > you ?n >   / 	Of course, and plenty of evidence of that too.a  8 	And as usual Andrew , your timing is impeccable.  Also,A 	seems whenever we start talking about eBay they take an outtage,e 	but I digress.t  4 http://news.com.com/2100-1001-921799.html?tag=fd_top  )  IBM takes top spot in server-speed race e   By Stephen Shankland l Staff Writer, CNET News.come May 23, 2002, 2:55 PM PT    I IBM's Unix server has edged ahead of Hewlett-Packard's in the single most 3 scrutinized performance test for high-end servers. m  A 	"single most scrutinized performance test for high-end servers."-  = 	Except of course if you are selling Sun kit and some of youro? 	customers inquire.  Brings up an interesting question, what ifa= 	the RFP requires Oracle tpmC numbers?  How do you propose anE 	E15K?   				Robe   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:27:45 +0100 U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>dM Subject: Re: Most unusual resident in a system ?, was: Re: No new Alpha salesl0 Message-ID: <aclpm1$kim$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:   > In article <aclium$in9$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes: >  > : >>>>You need to do much better than the tired TPC-C mantra) >>>>that you and Kerry keep trotting out.M >>>> >>>> >>>	Works though.b >>>g >>< >>Only for you and Kerry, does anyone else out there beleive >>you ?n >> >> > 1 > 	Of course, and plenty of evidence of that too.0 > : > 	And as usual Andrew , your timing is impeccable.  Also,C > 	seems whenever we start talking about eBay they take an outtage,h > 	but I digress.s    . And do you know what caused the eBay outage ??  + No, I guessed not just like the last times.e    6 > http://news.com.com/2100-1001-921799.html?tag=fd_top > + >  IBM takes top spot in server-speed race   >      Do you work for IBM ??  8 I am at a loss to understand why you think this enhances> your position. The GS320 has now moved from 3rd-4th to 4th-5th9 in the table of vendors who have published TPC-C numbers.l And its still most expensive.k  : So why the joy, its less competitive using the measure you9 have chosen to use to illustrate that it is a competitivee box than it was 24 hours ago.-  8 Sun isn't very interested in TPC-C, a view that is quite; widely agreed with. Incedentally IBM also have their doubtsb> about the validity of TPC-C. They were one of the prime movers= behind a high end replacement for TPC-C for more complex OLTP @ environments, it failed to garner the required number of members- votes in the TPC and has never been ratified.a       > By Stephen Shankland n > Staff Writer, CNET News.comg > May 23, 2002, 2:55 PM PT i > K > IBM's Unix server has edged ahead of Hewlett-Packard's in the single most 5 > scrutinized performance test for high-end servers. h > C > 	"single most scrutinized performance test for high-end servers."  > ? > 	Except of course if you are selling Sun kit and some of your A > 	customers inquire.  Brings up an interesting question, what if ? > 	the RFP requires Oracle tpmC numbers?  How do you propose ank > 	E15K? >     ? Sure, we tell the customer that TPC-C is a very poor method fortB determining relative performance of servers. If they want examplesB we use the GS320 TPC-C results which use OPS in a box as a perfect& example, they generally get the point.   Regardso   Andrew Harrisona   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 12:01:00 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)tM Subject: Re: Most unusual resident in a system ?, was: Re: No new Alpha sales 3 Message-ID: <FYOAulGx$omJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>o   In article <aclpm1$kim$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes: >  >  > Rob Young wrote: >  >> In article <aclium$in9$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes:d >> r >> a; >>>>>You need to do much better than the tired TPC-C mantrai* >>>>>that you and Kerry keep trotting out. >>>>>h >>>>>o >>>>	Works though. >>>> >>>"= >>>Only for you and Kerry, does anyone else out there beleive. >>>you ? >>>2 >>>  >> a2 >> 	Of course, and plenty of evidence of that too. >> n; >> 	And as usual Andrew , your timing is impeccable.  Also,-D >> 	seems whenever we start talking about eBay they take an outtage, >> 	but I digress. >  > 0 > And do you know what caused the eBay outage ?? >     @     Which outage?  They all begin to run together after a while.  E    How bout the ones in October 2000?  A particularlly bad/good monthr    for eBay outages.       ebaY Outages 10-12 Oct 00o     ebaY Outages 13-15 Oct     ebaY Outages 17 -18 Oct 00     ebaY Outages 19 Oct 00     ebaY Outages 22 Oct 00     ebaY Outages 23-25 Oct 00c     ebaY Outages 26, 27 Oct 00     ebaY Outages 28 - 30 Oct     ebaY Outages 30Oct - 1Nov1     ebaY Outages 2 Nov 00s   >  > 7 >> http://news.com.com/2100-1001-921799.html?tag=fd_top  >> h, >>  IBM takes top spot in server-speed race  >> k >  >  > Do you work for IBM ?? >   6 	Why should that matter in the grand scheme of things?  : > I am at a loss to understand why you think this enhances > your position.  @ 	It does a marvelous job.  Because Andrew being Andrew, he often@ 	forgets the question posed and/or conveniently trims it and notA 	so subtlely asks more tangential questions.  You had asked this:e   >a8 >>You need to do much better than the tired TPC-C mantra' >>that you and Kerry keep trotting out.s >> >      >       Works though.o    : Only for you and Kerry, does anyone else out there beleive you ?l   	To which I replied:  6         Of course, and plenty of evidence of that too.  ?         And as usual Andrew , your timing is impeccable.  Also,nH         seems whenever we start talking about eBay they take an outtage,         but I digress.  G http://news.com.com/2100-1001-921799.html?tag=fd_top                   o  (  IBM takes top spot in server-speed race   By Stephen Shankland       Staff Writer, CNET News.com4 May 23, 2002, 2:55 PM PT  I IBM's Unix server has edged ahead of Hewlett-Packard's in the single mostn2 scrutinized performance test for high-end servers.  H         "single most scrutinized performance test for high-end servers."  D         Except of course if you are selling Sun kit and some of yourF         customers inquire.  Brings up an interesting question, what ifD         the RFP requires Oracle tpmC numbers?  How do you propose an
         E15K?q   ===    	So you now state:  9 "I am at a loss to understand why you think this enhancest your position."   > 	Because it points out the fact that tpmC is most important to, 	folks other than Kerry and myself.  Get it?  , 	In fact, some RFP's require it, don't they?   > : > Sun isn't very interested in TPC-C, a view that is quite > widely agreed with.c >   2 	That is because you have fallen and can't get up.   >> bL >> IBM's Unix server has edged ahead of Hewlett-Packard's in the single most6 >> scrutinized performance test for high-end servers.  >>  D >> 	"single most scrutinized performance test for high-end servers." >> a@ >> 	Except of course if you are selling Sun kit and some of yourB >> 	customers inquire.  Brings up an interesting question, what if@ >> 	the RFP requires Oracle tpmC numbers?  How do you propose an	 >> 	E15K?o >> u >  > A > Sure, we tell the customer that TPC-C is a very poor method forq/ > determining relative performance of servers.    @ 	You tell them and of course gullible customers believe it, not.  > 	Reason?  Because all the other vendors are quick to highlightE 	the scaling/price-performance tpmC of their boxes and RDBMS choices.e> 	Of course putting the best face on things.  Sun's problem is 9 	they can't talk about tpmC anymore so appear as the "odd C 	man out" but are quick to explain away or hand-wave tpmC.  Doesn'th/ 	work when it is stuck in the RFP, does it? ;-)V   				Rob3   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:28:13 -0400 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> Y Subject: Re: off-topic: dubbing (was: RE: "Best" programming language on VMS for  newbie?t$ Message-ID: <3cee7809$1@news.si.com>  K I read in the paper this past weekend of  technology, called Video Rewrite,wK that will allow people to be shown speaking that which they never said.  It.K will take experts to analyze the footage in order to distinguish the fakes. ! Some papers on the technique are:o  G a.. Bregler, Covell, Slaney, "Video Rewrite: Driving Visual Speech witheI Audio," ACM Computer Graphics Proc. SIGGRAPH 97, Los Angeles, CA, Aug 3-8D 1997, p 353-360.I a.. Bregler, Covell, Slaney, "Video Rewrite: Visual Speech Synthesis from-F Video," Proc. ESCA Workshop on Audio-Visual Speech Processing, Rhodes,# Greece, Sept 26-27 1997, p 153-156.jI a.. Bregler, Covell, Slaney, "Video Rewrite: Photorealistic Synthetic LipgI Sync," Proc. INA Imagina, Monte Carlo, Monaco, March 4-6 1998, p 193-203. 	 (invited)e  % The URL for the first of the above is / http://www.slaney.org/covell/interval/1997-012/e  K This will be great for dubbing movies, but it will be a bane for society ini4 general until we get the ethical aspects worked out. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comgA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.como= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 03:24:27 -0700- From: martin.platts@cdl.co.uk (Martin Platts) , Subject: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 - system lockups= Message-ID: <b367fb16.0205240224.6fd0edcc@posting.google.com>c  B Anyone else had total system lockups - including the console (leftF with a flashing cursor only) - able to halt the system to chevron, butF unable to crash the system (so no dump ;-) - reboot the system and all is ok.  C Have had a couple of different systems do it now (I believe) - botheC with all the latest patches (bar the F11X V1.0 which came out afterTF they were installed - but that doesn't look like a candidate). One didE it during the middle of the day - the other was middle of the night --= one uses only tcpip connections - the other is mainly LAT viay: DECservers (and we do have an interim tcpip fix loaded for) unclosable/allocated service connections)   " Not got anywhere with the CSC yet.  
 Martin Plattsd  " (any statements are my own etc...)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:35:02 -0400r2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)0 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 - system lockupsK Message-ID: <rdeininger-2405020735020001@11cust95.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>g  = In article <b367fb16.0205240224.6fd0edcc@posting.google.com>,l. martin.platts@cdl.co.uk (Martin Platts) wrote:  C >Anyone else had total system lockups - including the console (left G >with a flashing cursor only) - able to halt the system to chevron, butmG >unable to crash the system (so no dump ;-) - reboot the system and alle >is ok.u   You don't give much to go on...t  / What kind of system(s)?  What adapter hardware?   G Since CSC is involved, I will assume there's nothing interesting in the  error logs.e  E You should be able to get a crash dump, barring hardware problems.  IaE guess CSC must be checking your system configuration around dump filenH management, and they've likely given you advice on how to force a dump. G If you can get to the >>> prompt, there are a number of alternatives to 
 force a dump.   J When you halted the system to the chevron, did it display the current PC? > How did you try to force the crash, and what was the response?    D >Have had a couple of different systems do it now (I believe) - bothD >with all the latest patches (bar the F11X V1.0 which came out afterG >they were installed - but that doesn't look like a candidate). One didrF >it during the middle of the day - the other was middle of the night -> >one uses only tcpip connections - the other is mainly LAT via; >DECservers (and we do have an interim tcpip fix loaded for * >unclosable/allocated service connections)  D These problems could come from just about anything, given the littleJ you've told us.  Unsupported or out-of-rev adapters can cause this, as can# any bit of hardware that's failing.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:27:21 -0400p  From: norm.raphael@jamesbury.com0 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 - system lockups? Message-ID: <OFFC33B0A6.398B20B4-ON85256BC3.0044191F@metso.com>B  E The last time (quite recently, alas) I had a problem like this, I was  advised to log indG the console and elevate that session's priority to 20 or so.  Then whena
 things gotH unresponsive, I was able to do just enough before that session locked to get a handle# on the problem, which is now fixed. H Unfortunately for you, this was a VAX and below V7.3 and the problem was not VMS, I can't help you in your case.        F rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) on 05/24/2002 07:35:02 AM  > Please respond to rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)   To:    Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com cc:g3 Subject:    Re: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 - system lockupsf    = In article <b367fb16.0205240224.6fd0edcc@posting.google.com>, . martin.platts@cdl.co.uk (Martin Platts) wrote:  C >Anyone else had total system lockups - including the console (left G >with a flashing cursor only) - able to halt the system to chevron, buteG >unable to crash the system (so no dump ;-) - reboot the system and all. >is ok.-   You don't give much to go on...d  / What kind of system(s)?  What adapter hardware?-  G Since CSC is involved, I will assume there's nothing interesting in theU error logs.c  E You should be able to get a crash dump, barring hardware problems.  IaE guess CSC must be checking your system configuration around dump filelG management, and they've likely given you advice on how to force a dump.9G If you can get to the >>> prompt, there are a number of alternatives tow
 force a dump.n  I When you halted the system to the chevron, did it display the current PC?o> How did you try to force the crash, and what was the response?    D >Have had a couple of different systems do it now (I believe) - bothD >with all the latest patches (bar the F11X V1.0 which came out afterG >they were installed - but that doesn't look like a candidate). One did F >it during the middle of the day - the other was middle of the night -> >one uses only tcpip connections - the other is mainly LAT via; >DECservers (and we do have an interim tcpip fix loaded forn* >unclosable/allocated service connections)  D These problems could come from just about anything, given the littleJ you've told us.  Unsupported or out-of-rev adapters can cause this, as can# any bit of hardware that's failing.l   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 07:58:02 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 0 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 - system lockups3 Message-ID: <aDMPwIPk$ojw@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  m In article <b367fb16.0205240224.6fd0edcc@posting.google.com>, martin.platts@cdl.co.uk (Martin Platts) writes:cD > Anyone else had total system lockups - including the console (leftH > with a flashing cursor only) - able to halt the system to chevron, butH > unable to crash the system (so no dump ;-) - reboot the system and all > is ok.  ?    I've had an 11/780 do that when looping at IPL 31.  Couldn't     get a halt command in.r  E    Unable to crash the system from the chevron promt nowdays probably:     indicates improper procedure.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 10:27:03 -0700$ From: JKoska@bender.com (John Koska)0 Subject: Re: OpenVMS Alpha V7.3 - system lockups= Message-ID: <aa5ec19e.0205240927.5d1d15dc@posting.google.com>n  r martin.platts@cdl.co.uk (Martin Platts) wrote in message news:<b367fb16.0205240224.6fd0edcc@posting.google.com>...D > Anyone else had total system lockups - including the console (leftH > with a flashing cursor only) - able to halt the system to chevron, butH > unable to crash the system (so no dump ;-) - reboot the system and all > is ok. >   = Had any memory pool expansion failures?  Check OPCOM/operator 	 logfiles.e  A I had similar hang with no viable dump once.  CSC discovered thatsE memory was being taken up in large chunks and then freed over a shorts> time period (under minute).  This caused memory pool expansion= failures on our somewhat untuned system.  We AUTOGEN'd, whichnD significantly up'd NPAGEVIR and NPAGEDYN, and have not see a problemA since.  NPAGEDYN is now significantly high that the 40 meg memory & hogger does not cause pool expansions.  F We never tracked down the memory hogger, but suspect it is third-partyE kernel priviledged software (print driver, etc.), since ANALYZE would 2 show the hogger as unknown, and not a part of VMS.   :) jck
 John Koska   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:47:28 +01004+ From: Alan Fay <alan@rmdir.fay.demon.co.uk>a Subject: OpenVMS SANA Message-ID: <1022230051.5524.0.nnrp-01.9e98bc8a@news.demon.co.uk>   , Do any of the OpenVMS SAN offerings operate,, or inter operate correctly (or at all) with 
 any UNIX SAN?:  & Is TCP/IP still unsupported over SAN?    Alan m   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:56:49 +0100n( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: OpenVMS SAN) Message-ID: <3CEE0051.6DADE00C@127.0.0.1>    Alan Fay wrote:>. > Do any of the OpenVMS SAN offerings operate,- > or inter operate correctly (or at all) withi > any UNIX SAN?   D We've has Solaris and HP-UX concurrently sharing the same SAN as VMSE boxes, but the UNIX's were checked at different times (i.e. not all 3eF simultaneously). This included a 'full' test of VMS disk capabilities,G i.e. shadowing, quorum disks etc. I'll withhold further details becausetF the testing and qualification is for our clients and Compaq/hp and the SAN providers.  I' > Is TCP/IP still unsupported over SAN?    ?  -- y( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comt   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:00:42 +0100h( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: OpenVMS SAN) Message-ID: <3CEE013A.3553AAFF@127.0.0.1>    Alan Fay wrote:e. > Do any of the OpenVMS SAN offerings operate,- > or inter operate correctly (or at all) with  > any UNIX SAN?-  D We've has Solaris and HP-UX concurrently sharing the same SAN as VMSE boxes, but the UNIX's were checked at different times (i.e. not all 3oF simultaneously). This included a 'full' test of VMS disk capabilities,F i.e. shadowing, quorum disks etc. It works fine. I'll withhold further details F because the testing and qualification is for our clients and Compaq/hp and  the SAN providers.   ' > Is TCP/IP still unsupported over SAN?0   ?: --  ( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 05:58:00 -0400h- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>e Subject: Re: OpenVMS SAN, Message-ID: <3CEE0EA8.C6F240A0@videotron.ca>   Nic Clews wrote:F > We've has Solaris and HP-UX concurrently sharing the same SAN as VMSG > boxes, but the UNIX's were checked at different times (i.e. not all 35H > simultaneously). This included a 'full' test of VMS disk capabilities,# > i.e. shadowing, quorum disks etc.o  N With the above, do you mean that each OS instance has its own disks managed byO the one big SAN box, or that all 3 instances  access each other's disk drives ?H   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:57:49 +01006( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> Subject: Re: OpenVMS SAN) Message-ID: <3CEE0E9D.8FAC403F@127.0.0.1>    JF Mezei wrote:e >  > Nic Clews wrote:H > > We've has Solaris and HP-UX concurrently sharing the same SAN as VMSI > > boxes, but the UNIX's were checked at different times (i.e. not all 3sJ > > simultaneously). This included a 'full' test of VMS disk capabilities,% > > i.e. shadowing, quorum disks etc.o > P > With the above, do you mean that each OS instance has its own disks managed byQ > the one big SAN box, or that all 3 instances  access each other's disk drives ?e  G The former. Attempting _native_ cross mounting wasn't in scope. Sorry IO didn't make it clear.d -- n( Regards, Nic Clews CSC Computer Sciences nclews at csc dot comc   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:08:59 -0500 & From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> Subject: Re: OpenVMS SAN8 Message-ID: <9blseug8coe3qhrmqjie50bv71on5q3rqo@4ax.com>  F On Fri, 24 May 2002 10:57:49 +0100, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:   >JF Mezei wrote: >> n >> Nic Clews wrote:lI >> > We've has Solaris and HP-UX concurrently sharing the same SAN as VMSrJ >> > boxes, but the UNIX's were checked at different times (i.e. not all 3K >> > simultaneously). This included a 'full' test of VMS disk capabilities,Y& >> > i.e. shadowing, quorum disks etc. >> tQ >> With the above, do you mean that each OS instance has its own disks managed bysR >> the one big SAN box, or that all 3 instances  access each other's disk drives ? >9H >The former. Attempting _native_ cross mounting wasn't in scope. Sorry I >didn't make it clear.  = I believe we have documents that discuss the Heterogenous SANmD architectures that we support.  There are different implications and limitations for each OS.  D In general we use "zone"-ing and "selective presentation" to isolate+ different storage LUNs for the various OSs.m  C There are, of course, many issues that need to be assessed prior toeE connecting each to the SAN.  The following URL will direct you to thea2 documents that we use to design SAN architectures.    B http://www.compaq.com/products/storageworks/san/documentation.html    1 Not speaking for anyone, certainly not DEC/Compaq - (get rid of the xxxz in my address to e-mail)    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:11:54 +0200 ) From: Bart Zorn <B.Zorn@xs4all.nospam.nl>  Subject: Re: OpenVMS SAN/ Message-ID: <3CEE664A.3060907@xs4all.nospam.nl>1   Nic Clews wrote: > Alan Fay wrote:   ' >>Is TCP/IP still unsupported over SAN?-   > ?a  F TCP/IP has nothing to do with a SAN. However, most SAN's are based on H Fibre Channel, which is a network technology which can also be used for H (TCP/)IP. I know nothing of other OS'es, but the TCP/IP implementations 6 for OpenVMS do not (yet) support FC as Physical layer.  	 Bart Zorns   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:46:46 -0400 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>, Subject: Re: OpenVMS SAN$ Message-ID: <3cee7c62$1@news.si.com>  E >We've has Solaris and HP-UX concurrently sharing the same SAN as VMSa >boxes,u  G What kind of equipment on the VMS side is needed for this?  Is an Alphan0 required, or do the controllers exist for VAXes? --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comiA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comi= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevente< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:28:49 GMTl. From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb@sdf.lonestar.org>* Subject: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C< Message-ID: <B6sH8.1513$XS1.56116@news8-gui.server.ntli.net>   Hello.  8 I am trying to convert a program from using BSD sockets,7 to VMS ASTs.  However, I'm having a program registeringu! the AST callback for the channel.m   The read handler is as follows:    void ast_handler_read(int fd)o {n!         fde_t *F = &fd_table[fd];a  F         ilog(L_CRIT, "Data ready on fd %d (%s) (read).", fd, F->desc);  *         F->read_handler(fd, F->read_data); }a  9 The read_handler processes the data from the fd, and thene9 re-installs the handler to read the next bit of data. Them& function that does this looks like so:  $     if (type & COMM_SELECT_READ) {  $         F->read_handler = handler;  $         F->read_data = client_data; M         r = sys$qio(EFN$C_ENF, decc$get_sdc(fd), IO$_SETMODE | IO$M_READATTN,a2 		 &iosb, ast_handler_read, fd, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0);     }   > The 'fd' is really the result of decc$socket_fd on the channel3 that was previously opened with sys$assign/sys$qio.r  6 The channel is assigned as a listening socket like so:H   status = sys$qiow( EFN$C_ENF, decc$get_sdc(fd), IO$_SETMODE, &iosb,   :                      0, 0, 0, 0, &addr_itemlst, 0, 0, 0); E   status = sys$qiow( EFN$C_ENF, decc$get_sdc(fd), IO$_SETMODE, &iosb,s. 		     0, 0, 0, 0, 0, HYBRID_SOMAXCONN, 0, 0);  1 (along with other code to set addr_itemlst, etc).t  ; The problem is that it that the AST handler is being calledr? immediately when sys$qio() is called, even when there shouldn't # be any data on the socket; like so:t   $ ircd/foregroundh ircd: version hybrid-7beta15
 ircd: pid 603d3 ircd: running in foreground mode from IRCD$BASEDIR:- [2002/5/24 16.22] Opening fd 6.,* [2002/5/24 16.22] Binding I/O channel 240.+ [2002/5/24 16.22] Listening on channel 240. > [2002/5/24 16.22] Data ready on fd 6 (Listener socket) (read).. [2002/5/24 16.22] Registered interest in FD 6.> [2002/5/24 16.22] Data ready on fd 6 (Listener socket) (read).. [2002/5/24 16.22] Registered interest in FD 6.> [2002/5/24 16.22] Data ready on fd 6 (Listener socket) (read).. [2002/5/24 16.22] Registered interest in FD 6.   .. and so on, for ever.t  ? I can't see anything obviously wrong here; maybe someone could 0 shed some light on the problem?s   	-larned   System information:i   $ show sys/noproc G OpenVMS V7.3  on node STYX  24-MAY-2002 15:24:14.52  Uptime  1 11:46:48o $ tcpip show version  5   Compaq TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS VAX Version V5.175   on a VAXserver 3900 Series running OpenVMS V7.3    j  
 $ show cpu   STYX, a VAXserver 3900 SeriesgH Multiprocessing is DISABLED. Uniprocessing synchronization image loaded.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:12:47 +0200r. From: "Jesper Naur" <jesper.naur@post.tele.dk>. Subject: Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C= Message-ID: <3cee582d$0$18648$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk>e  9 Edward Brocklesby <ejb@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote in message 6 news:B6sH8.1513$XS1.56116@news8-gui.server.ntli.net... [snip]= > The problem is that it that the AST handler is being calledrA > immediately when sys$qio() is called, even when there shouldn'tn% > be any data on the socket; like so:e >s > $ ircd/foregrounds > ircd: version hybrid-7beta15 > ircd: pid 603d5 > ircd: running in foreground mode from IRCD$BASEDIR: ! > [2002/5/24 16.22] Opening fd 6.a, > [2002/5/24 16.22] Binding I/O channel 240.- > [2002/5/24 16.22] Listening on channel 240. @ > [2002/5/24 16.22] Data ready on fd 6 (Listener socket) (read).0 > [2002/5/24 16.22] Registered interest in FD 6.@ > [2002/5/24 16.22] Data ready on fd 6 (Listener socket) (read).0 > [2002/5/24 16.22] Registered interest in FD 6.@ > [2002/5/24 16.22] Data ready on fd 6 (Listener socket) (read).0 > [2002/5/24 16.22] Registered interest in FD 6. >l > .. and so on, for ever.  > @ > I can't see anything obviously wrong here; maybe someone could! > shed some light on the problem?c  G Have you checked the iosb's, to make sure, that all your QIO's actuallyoE complete successfully? For this, have in mind, that the iosb used for E the QIO in read_handler must not be locally declared in read_handler,rB since it must exist for the duration of the asynchronous I/O to be, inspected by the AST when the I/O completes.       Best regards     Jesper Naura   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:03:33 +0100h. From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb@sdf.lonestar.org>. Subject: Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in CA Message-ID: <xwtH8.3923$GB4.592574@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>   * Hello. Thank you for such a quick reply :)   Jesper Naur wrote:I > Have you checked the iosb's, to make sure, that all your QIO's actually G > complete successfully? For this, have in mind, that the iosb used for G > the QIO in read_handler must not be locally declared in read_handler,dD > since it must exist for the duration of the asynchronous I/O to be. > inspected by the AST when the I/O completes.  5 I have added to ast_handler_read, the following code:h  F         ilog(L_CRIT, "Data ready on fd %d (%s) (read).", fd, F->desc);  1         if (!$VMS_STATUS_SUCCESS(F->iosb.status))n	         {eB                 ilog(L_CRIT, "iosb failure: %x.", F->iosb.status);%                 exit(F->iosb.status);r	         }i  *         F->read_handler(fd, F->read_data);  H But it appears that the i/o request completed fine ($VMS_STATUS_SUCCESS  returns true). A  K Under what conditions, is the AST handler called?  According to the Compaq FC TCP/IP Services manual, IO$M_READATTN handler should only be calledlG when data is ready on the socket.  Perhaps I am missing something here;nD since this is a listening socket, should i use something other than 2 IO$M_READATTN to check for an incoming connection?  I (This is comparable to a socket()/bind()/listen() then select()/accept() t loop with BSD socket API.)           -larne s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:28:04 +0100o% From: "Shaun Lehane" <leh@bcs.org.uk>5 Subject: Realtime Performancei& Message-ID: <3cee4df4$1@pull.gecm.com>  H Has anyone got any data in porting realtime applications from VAX VMS to ALPHA?   Regards  Shaun Lehane   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:04:07 -0400 ! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>l! Subject: Re: Realtime Performanced' Message-ID: <3CEE5667.BFCB0118@vcu.edu>c  H I had problems with my timing loops every time I went to a faster cpu...  G also, if you are doing global sections in FORTRAN, there are issues.. I 1 have a copy of that squirrled away *somewhere*...W  ( if you're running perl, no sweat...  8-D   jimw   Shaun Lehane wrote:i > J > Has anyone got any data in porting realtime applications from VAX VMS to > ALPHA? > 	 > Regards. > Shaun Lehane   ------------------------------   Date: 24 May 2002 07:26:40 GMT- From: djweath@attglobal.net (Dave Weatherall)w, Subject: Re: Replacing ALL-IN-1 applications5 Message-ID: <DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-T5JsHj9eKnGh@localhost>   B A little anecdote.This might make you feel nostalgically warm, it  might make you mad!!  D When leaving for work yesterday I noticed a big piece of plastic on E the hall table. It had some insulation tape on it ,holding two parts hF together. My beady eye noticed a blue d|i|g|i|t|a|l logo on one part. + What! thinks I, I must have a look at this.t  F So I remove the insulation tape and "ALL-IN-1" appears. Its the cap toD a 'Super-plug' or 'WELTREISESTECKER'. i.e. a mains-plug adapter for F 'any where you are' to german mains socket. It was set up for the UK. $ The last place my wife had used it.    DEC Marketing...    Cheers - Dave.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:13:44 GMTr! From: Ian Parker <parker@gol.com> 2 Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)/ Message-ID: <1Bqk2IH2Gh78EwHn@hiredata.gol.com>-  C In article <isrmeuotpqt4npneup3n1fa9j8lp8qhlc6@4ax.com>, Alan GreigV <a.greig@virgin.net> writess/ >On Wed, 22 May 2002 08:11:06 GMT, Brian Ingliso) ><Brian.Inglis@SystematicSw.ab.ca> wrote:0 >cA >>On 21 May 2002 17:06:19 GMT, nmm1@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren)s >>wrote: >>>s8 >>>In article <s71wutxqw1n.fsf@barnowl.CS.Berkeley.EDU>,3 >>>David Gay <dgay@barnowl.CS.Berkeley.EDU> writes:t >>>|>hI >>>|> "Rupert Pigott" <dark.try-eating-this.b00ng@btinternet.com> writes:m@ >>>|> > Basically C is a sequential language, it is designed for? >>>|> > sequential programs, and people think sequentially whenc+ >>>|> > they write it. Theres your problem.s >>@ >>Maybe it's time to resurrect Algol 68 in some form: I've often9 >>wished for the ability to use Algol 68 commas (parallelb >eF >Which reminds me, anyone remember S-Algol (St. Andrews University). I> >recall they had a VAX/VMS compiler. Wonder if it still exists
 >anywhere. >d >o >--M >Alanl  B I too miss the power and flexibility of Algol 68.  There's still aH compiler on the web somewhere.  Perhaps someday, someone will produce an# object-oriented version (dream on).)  ) I particularly miss the looping statement ,         from h by i to j while k do ..... odD where the 'from', 'by', 'to' and  'while' phrases were optional with sensible defaultsO  G Now I use Python which is the closest I can get to an elegant language.    Regardsr   Ians   -- y
 Ian Parker   ------------------------------   Date: 24 May 2002 12:55:30 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)a2 Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture), Message-ID: <acld82$2qvu$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>  / In article <1Bqk2IH2Gh78EwHn@hiredata.gol.com>,i$  Ian Parker <parker@gol.com> writes: |>E |> I too miss the power and flexibility of Algol 68.  There's still a K |> compiler on the web somewhere.  Perhaps someday, someone will produce an & |> object-oriented version (dream on). |> h   But then it wouldn't be Algol.   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   y   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:13:52 -0500l- From: Tim Olson <04lzvud73001@sneakemail.com>u2 Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)> Message-ID: <04lzvud73001-A44A4A.08135224052002@news.jump.net>  / In article <1Bqk2IH2Gh78EwHn@hiredata.gol.com>,S#  Ian Parker <parker@gol.com> wrote:1  + | I particularly miss the looping statement . |         from h by i to j while k do ..... odF | where the 'from', 'by', 'to' and  'while' phrases were optional with | sensible defaultss | I | Now I use Python which is the closest I can get to an elegant language.e  E You might want to check out Smalltalk, which is so elegant that your iB missed looping construct can be implemented for every subclass of  Collection with a single line:  
 Collection while: testBlock do: loopBlock m  H    self do: [:i | testBlock value ifFalse: [^ self]. loopBlock value: i]    F With that single-line method installed in the Collection class, every F subclass of collection can now perform the conditional iteration loop:   "iteration over an interval"	 sum := 0..< (1 to: 10 by: 2) while: [sum < 7] do: [:i | sum := sum + i].     "iteration over a string"e	 len := 0.o vowelCount := 0. 'the quick brown fox'r    while: [len < 15]    do:       [:ch |       len := len + 1.v       ch isVowel ifTrue:)          [vowelCount := vowelCount + 1]].e    E However, that particular looping construct is rarely needed, because n? there are many powerful "higher-level" looping operations over .  Collections which already exist:  $ (1 to: 4) collect: [:n | n squared].    " returns  #(1 4 9 16) "   1 'the quick brown fox' select: [:ch | ch isVowel].     " returns  'euioo' "   ! Followups to: comp.lang.smalltalk0   --          -- Tim Olsone   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 06:32:40 -0700-# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>82 Subject: RE: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEOCFAAA.tom@kednos.com>2   >-----Original Message----- 5 >From: Tim Olson [mailto:04lzvud73001@sneakemail.com]i# >Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 6:14 AMt >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com3 >Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)i >n >d0 >In article <1Bqk2IH2Gh78EwHn@hiredata.gol.com>,$ > Ian Parker <parker@gol.com> wrote: >e, >| I particularly miss the looping statement/ >|         from h by i to j while k do ..... od G >| where the 'from', 'by', 'to' and  'while' phrases were optional with- >| sensible defaults >| rJ >| Now I use Python which is the closest I can get to an elegant language. >cF >You might want to check out Smalltalk, which is so elegant that your C >missed looping construct can be implemented for every subclass of o >Collection with a single line:s >S >Collectionb  >while: testBlock do: loopBlock  >nI >   self do: [:i | testBlock value ifFalse: [^ self]. loopBlock value: i]o >M >iG >With that single-line method installed in the Collection class, every aG >subclass of collection can now perform the conditional iteration loop:h >n >"iteration over an interval"s
 >sum := 0.= >(1 to: 10 by: 2) while: [sum < 7] do: [:i | sum := sum + i].e  B So why is this an advancement in the art of programming?  In PL/I,E which doesn't have the obscure syntax, and reads like normal language 	 you write- sum = 0;# do i = 1 to 10 by 2 while(sum < 7);:   sum = sum + i;   end; >s >x >"iteration over a string"
 >len := 0. >vowelCount := 0.9 >'the quick brown fox' >   while: [len < 15]n >   do:M
 >      [:ch |9 >      len := len + 1. >      ch isVowel ifTrue: * >         [vowelCount := vowelCount + 1]]. >  >>F >However, that particular looping construct is rarely needed, because @ >there are many powerful "higher-level" looping operations over ! >Collections which already exist:s >c% >(1 to: 4) collect: [:n | n squared].i >   " returns  #(1 4 9 16) " >u2 >'the quick brown fox' select: [:ch | ch isVowel]. >   " returns  'euioo' " >o" >Followups to: comp.lang.smalltalk >N >--  >t >     -- Tim Olson >c >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free..; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002t >H ---g& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:11:16 GMTo! From: Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net>b2 Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)> Message-ID: <Xns92186763BEA88acsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>  ; Tim Olson <04lzvud73001@sneakemail.com> enlightened us withs7 news:04lzvud73001-A44A4A.08135224052002@news.jump.net: r  : [I believe this thread SOMEHOW started in comp.os.vms in a? discussion of available programming languages under a differentr subject title ?] 1  ' > You might want to check out Smalltalkn  9 And Smalltalk for VMS can be found where ? For how much ?0@ [Squeak hasn't been ported to VMS (yet) so that choice is out.]    -Andy- -- t   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 04:35:51 -07004 From: francesco.gennai@iat.cnr.it (Francesco Gennai)1 Subject: SCSI cluster and Memory Channel questione< Message-ID: <72f5654.0205240335.6e6b130d@posting.google.com>   Starting configuration:n= 2 nodes (DS20E biprocessor) SCSI cluster with Memory Channel.   C Is it possible to add a third node (with no Memory Channel card) to C the SCSI cluster and maintain the cluster communication between thec first two nodesN on the Memory Channel link ?7 All the nodes will share a dedicated fast ethernet lan.r  D (Performance requirementes are important only for the first 2 nodes.. The third node is only for running some tests)   Francesco Gennai   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:53:30 -0400_2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)5 Subject: Re: SCSI cluster and Memory Channel questionEK Message-ID: <rdeininger-2405020753310001@11cust95.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>M  < In article <72f5654.0205240335.6e6b130d@posting.google.com>,5 francesco.gennai@iat.cnr.it (Francesco Gennai) wrote:    >Starting configuration:> >2 nodes (DS20E biprocessor) SCSI cluster with Memory Channel. >PD >Is it possible to add a third node (with no Memory Channel card) toD >the SCSI cluster and maintain the cluster communication between the >first two nodes >on the Memory Channel link ?I8 >All the nodes will share a dedicated fast ethernet lan.   Yes, this sounds fine.  I You can put 3 systems directly on a SCSI bus without a SCSI hub, provided=< you follow all the rules about termination and cable length.  ? Cluster communication to the MC-less node will be via ethernet._  @ You could also just make the 3rd node a satellite with no directG connection to the SCSI.  This would likely give poorer disk performancenI and put more load on the ethernet.  (I'd at least make sure the satellite * had its own disk for page and swap files.)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:05:13 -0700,# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>o! Subject: Show cluster not working09 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEODFAAA.tom@kednos.com>o  9 on VAX 7.1.  But works on other nodes, alphas 6.2,7.1,7.3s8 Upon entering the command it returns with a new preompt. Any ideas what to look for?s ---(& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:15:22 -0500gC From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com>t% Subject: Re: Show cluster not working H Message-ID: <craig.berry-A45343.10152224052002@news.directvinternet.com>  9 In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEODFAAA.tom@kednos.com>,s%  "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:d  ; > on VAX 7.1.  But works on other nodes, alphas 6.2,7.1,7.3.: > Upon entering the command it returns with a new preompt. > Any ideas what to look for?    $ show symbol $status/  9 Watch the opcom and/or audit log for anything interesting/  : Enable SET WATCH to see if you're really loading the image  9 Check your .CLD file for proper definition of the command   8 Check for nefarious definitions of a symbol named "SHOW"  D See if you can talk to / look at any other member of the cluster in  SYSMAN.    . . . .   
 Call the CSC?    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:22:48 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> % Subject: RE: Show cluster not workingo9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEOHFAAA.tom@kednos.com>t  E The show command is working, e.g. SHOW TIME, and the node seems to bee> working in all other respects, status returns 1,  it just that1 it doesn't return any info on cluster.  Very odd.9   >-----Original Message-----DI >From: Craig A. Berry [mailto:craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com]-# >Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 8:15 AM1 >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com& >Subject: Re: Show cluster not working >: >:: >In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIEEODFAAA.tom@kednos.com>,& > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote: >d< >> on VAX 7.1.  But works on other nodes, alphas 6.2,7.1,7.3; >> Upon entering the command it returns with a new preompt.  >> Any ideas what to look for? >  >$ show symbol $status > : >Watch the opcom and/or audit log for anything interesting >n; >Enable SET WATCH to see if you're really loading the imageo >s: >Check your .CLD file for proper definition of the command >n9 >Check for nefarious definitions of a symbol named "SHOW". > E >See if you can talk to / look at any other member of the cluster in / >SYSMAN. >t	 >.. . . .a >l >Call the CSC? >4 >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.e; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).0A >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002/ >4 ---2& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 06:02:50 GMTo0 From: "Matt Muggeridge" <Matt.Muggeridge@hp.com> Subject: Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?@ Message-ID: <eIkH8.171467$o66.509188@news-server.bigpond.net.au>  F Yes, I agree with your comments.  It would seem simple enough to add aJ recursion check for logical names.  I don't know if this is something thatL just has not been requested, or whether there is some technical issue behindH it.  Do you have contact with VMS product management?  If not send me an  email and I'll put you in touch.   Cheers,r Matt.a   --= -------------------------------------------------------------/ OpenVMS TCP/IP Engineering Enterprise Computing Group Hewlett-Packard Company  Gold Coast, AUSTRALIAr= -------------------------------------------------------------d    F "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote inJ message news:craig.berry-7BB7D2.21432523052002@news.directvinternet.com...B > In article <lSeH8.170674$o66.505392@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,4 >  "Matt Muggeridge" <Matt.Muggeridge@hp.com> wrote: > K > > The OpenVMS User's Manual, describes iterative translation.  The systemeL > > limits the number of iterative levels to at least nine, depending on the
 > > facility.e >;9 > Thanks for the reply; the section you refer to is here:  > K > <http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73final/6489/6489pro_031.html#index_x_  > 1210>  >t/ > OK, so you're telling me that because we need_ >d! > FOO -> BAR -> BAZ -> myfile.datp >s > to work, and perhaps evene >i! > FOO -> Foo -> foo -> myfile.datr >./ > that we can't stop ourselves in the middle ofa >d! > FOO -> FOO -> FOO -> FOO -> ...P >rF > and realize we are no longer iterating but are in fact just stuck in > one place? >kF > Surely if we're looping over sys$trnlnm and the search list index is5 > the same as in the previous pass (or LNM$_MAX_INDEX H > returns -1, meaning no search list) and the logical name itself is theI > same as in the previous pass (the definition of which varies by whether F > the flags contain LNM$M_CASE_BLIND) then we can tell if we're really( > iterating or just spinning our wheels. >cE > In any case, if SHOW LOGICAL were really exiting because it hit thelG > maximum number of iterations, shouldn't it exit with SS$_TOOMANYLNAM?o >AI > I admit this is more interesting than I originally thought, but I still-I > don't quite see that looping 10 times as though iterating when there isu@ > in fact only one logical name is really the right thing to do. >8 > > > $ define foo foo > > > $ show logical/full foo 2 > > >    "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)2 > > > 1  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)2 > > > 2  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)2 > > > 3  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)2 > > > 4  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)2 > > > 5  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)2 > > > 6  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)2 > > > 7  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)2 > > > 8  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)2 > > > 9  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 10:50:54 +0100.* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk> Subject: Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?, Message-ID: <acl2dd$1q2a@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  ; "Matt Muggeridge" <Matt.Muggeridge@hp.com> wrote in messagep: news:eIkH8.171467$o66.509188@news-server.bigpond.net.au...  H > Yes, I agree with your comments.  It would seem simple enough to add a$ > recursion check for logical names.  I In the simplest case yes. It seems to me that adding code to the mainlineTF to optimise detecting one abnormal condition (direct recursion) is notE worthwhile. Although saving a few cycles is probably not the issue it K used to be, handling the error case in a simple and robust way probably is.-  	 Consider:, DEF A B0 DEF B A4   and  DEF A B  DEF/TR=TERM B Al   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 04:05:15 -0700q* From: "Matt Simis" <mattsimis@hotmail.com>8 Subject: Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ??5 Message-ID: <acl6pc$pmvch$1@ID-131939.news.dfncis.de>0  8 Ive just got a reply back from Samsung about these CPUs:   Hello Matt Simis.24 Thank you for your inquiry to Samsung Semiconductor.  C We sold the 733MHz CPUs to Compaq for its high performance servers.lK Unfortunately Samsung don't have bare motherboards to support that speed of ; CPU. The motherboards available have CPUs soldered on them.r   I am sorry I cannot help you.s   Regards, --------------------  K So, what "high performance servers are they talking about if its not GS/ES?        Matt        ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messagesF news:rdeininger-2305020800020001@11cust174.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net...D > In article <aci9nr$pql71$1@ID-131939.news.dfncis.de>, "Matt Simis"  > <mattsimis@hotmail.com> wrote: >XE > >They were sold as Compaq excess inventory. I was led to believe bya friendsoK > >in Compaq that they are CPUs from the GS (and ES etc) series, which doeshF > >indeed have ZIF sockets, for "seamless upgrade through the products, > >lifetime" or something along those lines. > > @ > >Of course, that probably does not help me find a motherboard! >rC > The ES and GS series systems I've looked inside don't use CPUs insH > sockets.  The CPUs don't even have pins.  The mounting is flat-on-flatG > with an interposer, with bolts and clamps and springs and other messy-D > stuff.  Not something for an end user to take apart and play with. >sJ > The CPUs are attached to daughtercards which can be removed and replacedK > pretty easily.  That would be the only route to a "seamless upgrade" that8 > I know of in these boxes.n   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:37:33 +0200t From: Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl>8 Subject: Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ??& Message-ID: <3CEE25FD.8010202@home.nl>  F These CPUs were uses in GS series, if I'm not mistaken in the GS 80 /  160 / 320 series. G I remember because the performance of the 733 MHz processors was lower tI then the performance of the 667 MHz CPUs in the ES series. The reason is tD that the 733 MHz cpus had 4 MB cache, and the 667 MHz cpus had 8 MB.          Matt Simis wrote:-  9 >Ive just got a reply back from Samsung about these CPUs:  >o >Hello Matt Simis.5 >Thank you for your inquiry to Samsung Semiconductor.i >tD >We sold the 733MHz CPUs to Compaq for its high performance servers.L >Unfortunately Samsung don't have bare motherboards to support that speed of< >CPU. The motherboards available have CPUs soldered on them. >  >I am sorry I cannot help you. >.	 >Regards,r >--------------------' >dL >So, what "high performance servers are they talking about if its not GS/ES? >n >i >i >Mattl >s >  >  > @ >"Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messageG >news:rdeininger-2305020800020001@11cust174.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net...n > D >>In article <aci9nr$pql71$1@ID-131939.news.dfncis.de>, "Matt Simis"  >><mattsimis@hotmail.com> wrote: >>E >>>They were sold as Compaq excess inventory. I was led to believe by  >>>i >friends >eK >>>in Compaq that they are CPUs from the GS (and ES etc) series, which doesnF >>>indeed have ZIF sockets, for "seamless upgrade through the products, >>>lifetime" or something along those lines. >>><@ >>>Of course, that probably does not help me find a motherboard! >>>0C >>The ES and GS series systems I've looked inside don't use CPUs in H >>sockets.  The CPUs don't even have pins.  The mounting is flat-on-flatG >>with an interposer, with bolts and clamps and springs and other messyiD >>stuff.  Not something for an end user to take apart and play with. >>J >>The CPUs are attached to daughtercards which can be removed and replacedK >>pretty easily.  That would be the only route to a "seamless upgrade" thato >>I know of in these boxes.o >> >  >"   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 07:43:55 -0400-2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)8 Subject: Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ??K Message-ID: <rdeininger-2405020743560001@11cust95.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>-  B In article <acl6pc$pmvch$1@ID-131939.news.dfncis.de>, "Matt Simis" <mattsimis@hotmail.com> wrote:  9 >Ive just got a reply back from Samsung about these CPUs:2 >  >Hello Matt Simis.5 >Thank you for your inquiry to Samsung Semiconductor.  >hD >We sold the 733MHz CPUs to Compaq for its high performance servers.L >Unfortunately Samsung don't have bare motherboards to support that speed of< >CPU. The motherboards available have CPUs soldered on them. >e >I am sorry I cannot help you. >l	 >Regards,w >--------------------s >iL >So, what "high performance servers are they talking about if its not GS/ES?  H Well, I haven't looked inside all of them. And there are DS systems, and# others like the XP1000 workstation.s  D But maybe we have a confusion over terminology.  I was talking aboutF mountings that use an "interposer", a little widget that's squished inG between the CPU and the circuit board.  I suppose some folks might callM that a "ZIF socket".  1 Does your CPU have pins, bumps, or flat contacts?y   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:33:56 -0700h* From: "Matt Simis" <mattsimis@hotmail.com>8 Subject: Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ??5 Message-ID: <aclbvn$qj0qh$1@ID-131939.news.dfncis.de>o  A And what are my chances of finding a GS motherboard lying around?r    L "Dirk Munk" <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:3CEE25FD.8010202@home.nl...G > These CPUs were uses in GS series, if I'm not mistaken in the GS 80 /: > 160 / 320 series.0H > I remember because the performance of the 733 MHz processors was lowerJ > then the performance of the 667 MHz CPUs in the ES series. The reason isF > that the 733 MHz cpus had 4 MB cache, and the 667 MHz cpus had 8 MB. >  >r >l >e > Matt Simis wrote:e >e; > >Ive just got a reply back from Samsung about these CPUs:e > >s > >Hello Matt Simis.7 > >Thank you for your inquiry to Samsung Semiconductor.n > >1F > >We sold the 733MHz CPUs to Compaq for its high performance servers.K > >Unfortunately Samsung don't have bare motherboards to support that speed  of> > >CPU. The motherboards available have CPUs soldered on them. > >e  > >I am sorry I cannot help you. > >w > >Regards,) > >--------------------i > >aG > >So, what "high performance servers are they talking about if its noti GS/ES? > >. > >c > >y > >Matt- > >  > >m > >p > >wB > >"Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in messageI > >news:rdeininger-2305020800020001@11cust174.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net...: > > F > >>In article <aci9nr$pql71$1@ID-131939.news.dfncis.de>, "Matt Simis"" > >><mattsimis@hotmail.com> wrote: > >>G > >>>They were sold as Compaq excess inventory. I was led to believe bya > >>>c
 > >friends > >sH > >>>in Compaq that they are CPUs from the GS (and ES etc) series, which doesH > >>>indeed have ZIF sockets, for "seamless upgrade through the products. > >>>lifetime" or something along those lines. > >>>]B > >>>Of course, that probably does not help me find a motherboard! > >>> E > >>The ES and GS series systems I've looked inside don't use CPUs intJ > >>sockets.  The CPUs don't even have pins.  The mounting is flat-on-flatI > >>with an interposer, with bolts and clamps and springs and other messyaF > >>stuff.  Not something for an end user to take apart and play with. > >>L > >>The CPUs are attached to daughtercards which can be removed and replacedH > >>pretty easily.  That would be the only route to a "seamless upgrade" that > >>I know of in these boxes.  > >> > >n > >r >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:49:30 -0700i* From: "Matt Simis" <mattsimis@hotmail.com>8 Subject: Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ??5 Message-ID: <aclcsu$q3r5h$1@ID-131939.news.dfncis.de>h  K Pins, like (shock horror) a bog standard x86 CPU. I was kinda hoping that ae0 XP1000 (or something else cheaper than GS) could be altered to use the CPU.       Matt    ? "Robert Deininger" <rdeininger@mindspring.com> wrote in message E news:rdeininger-2405020743560001@11cust95.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net...1D > In article <acl6pc$pmvch$1@ID-131939.news.dfncis.de>, "Matt Simis"  > <mattsimis@hotmail.com> wrote: >c; > >Ive just got a reply back from Samsung about these CPUs:o > >r > >Hello Matt Simis.7 > >Thank you for your inquiry to Samsung Semiconductor.  > >sF > >We sold the 733MHz CPUs to Compaq for its high performance servers.K > >Unfortunately Samsung don't have bare motherboards to support that speedo of> > >CPU. The motherboards available have CPUs soldered on them. > >e  > >I am sorry I cannot help you. > >  > >Regards,  > >--------------------C > >sG > >So, what "high performance servers are they talking about if its notn GS/ES? >lJ > Well, I haven't looked inside all of them. And there are DS systems, and% > others like the XP1000 workstation.  >aF > But maybe we have a confusion over terminology.  I was talking aboutH > mountings that use an "interposer", a little widget that's squished inI > between the CPU and the circuit board.  I suppose some folks might call- > that a "ZIF socket". >-3 > Does your CPU have pins, bumps, or flat contacts?m   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:41:33 GMTD1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> 8 Subject: Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ??9 Message-ID: <NatH8.3419$d51.1168195@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>   L "Dirk Munk" <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:3CEE25FD.8010202@home.nl...G > These CPUs were uses in GS series, if I'm not mistaken in the GS 80 // > 160 / 320 series.-H > I remember because the performance of the 733 MHz processors was lowerJ > then the performance of the 667 MHz CPUs in the ES series. The reason isF > that the 733 MHz cpus had 4 MB cache, and the 667 MHz cpus had 8 MB.  H This is correct. It is one of several reasons that the performance of an. ES-Series quadboard blew away a GS-Series QBB.   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:55:50 +0000 (UTC)e, From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)$ Subject: Re: smtp, firewalls and NAT. Message-ID: <aclnq6$s5d$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes in article <01KI2P8YF4BE96VU4K@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> dated Thu, 23 May 2002 17:10:45 +0100 (MET):6 >> I thought of the problem with the VMS box trying to; >> reverse lookup the ip address he gets from the FW, whichl6 >> isn't either the real ip address of the smtp client >> *or* the NAT'ed IP address. >> -I >As I've mentioned here before, it is easy to have a configuration where mF >all TCPIP applications work except SMTP.  SMTP does some checking to @ >decide what to do with mail messages.  I'm still looking for a 7 >flow-chart style description of the algorithm it uses.o  L SMTP doesn't use the "regular" DNS addresses; it's the MX records that countK for mail routing.  As you'll see in this example, Probe and Lumina (membersoK of the same cluster) look very different to SMTP.  Maybe that has something:I to do with the problem?  (Note:  Lumina is set up for mail, Probe is not,hC which is why I can post this message and you can't reply directly.)F  # PROBE$ nslookup :== $tcpip$nslookupo PROBE$ nslookupt" Default Server:  dnssrv4.mitre.org Address:  128.29.154.150  
 > set type=mxn > probee Server:  dnssrv4.mitre.org Address:  128.29.154.150  	 MITRE.ORG "         origin = dnsmstr.MITRE.ORG(         mail addr = hostmaster.MITRE.ORG         serial = 2000238135l         refresh = 3600 (1H)r         retry   = 1200 (20M)         expire  = 604800 (1W)r          minimum ttl = 10800 (3H) > lumina Server:  dnssrv4.mitre.org Address:  128.29.154.150  N lumina.MITRE.ORG        preference = 10, mail exchanger = smtpproxy1.MITRE.ORGI lumina.MITRE.ORG        preference = 1, mail exchanger = lumina.MITRE.ORGuM lumina.MITRE.ORG        preference = 5, mail exchanger = smtpproxy2.MITRE.ORGn- MITRE.ORG       nameserver = mbunix.MITRE.ORG - MITRE.ORG       nameserver = mwunix.MITRE.ORGd. MITRE.ORG       nameserver = dnsmstr.MITRE.ORG. MITRE.ORG       nameserver = dnssrv2.MITRE.ORG. MITRE.ORG       nameserver = dnssrv4.MITRE.ORG7 lumina.MITRE.ORG        internet address = 128.29.35.33:8 smtpproxy2.MITRE.ORG    internet address = 128.29.154.907 smtpproxy1.MITRE.ORG    internet address = 129.83.20.9018 mbunix.MITRE.ORG        internet address = 129.83.20.1007 mwunix.MITRE.ORG        internet address = 128.29.154.1a7 dnsmstr.MITRE.ORG       internet address = 129.83.20.56s7 dnssrv2.MITRE.ORG       internet address = 129.83.20.47e9 dnssrv4.MITRE.ORG       internet address = 128.29.154.150n >t  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgn> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:01:26 -0400P+ From: Nikki Howard <resumes@ergoxyzsol.com>lH Subject: US-GA-Atlanta OpenVMS job listing, Sales/Account Representative. Message-ID: <3CEE71E6.77F27F47@ergoxyzsol.com>  & --------------8CCCAC410E67D37948D39694* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bite  E Ergonomic Solutions has a new job posting for a sales/account rep forp8 its RamPage wireless text messaging product for OpenVMS.  G The position is located in Atlanta, Georgia.  For complete information,n refer to< the full job listing at either http://openvms.monster.com or monster.com.  D Post your resume via Monster, or email it to resumes@ergoxyzsol.com, butiG first take off the fake xyz characters that fools the email harvesters.3  8 This link might also bring you right to the job listing:  E http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=14872581&col=&cy=US&brd=1&lid=950&fn=10&q=&AVSDM=2002%2D05%2D18+17%3A32%3A00%2E000&CCD=my%2Emonster%2Ecom&JSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom&HD=company%2Emonster%2Ecom&AD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fcy%3DUS%26brd%3D1%26lid%3D950%26fn%3D10%26q%3D&Logo=1e  & --------------8CCCAC410E67D37948D39694) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-asciie Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   > <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html>I Ergonomic Solutions has a new job posting for a sales/account rep for its 4 RamPage wireless text messaging product for OpenVMS.O <p>The position is located in Atlanta, Georgia.&nbsp; For complete information,i refer tov <br>the full job listing at either <A HREF="http://openvms.monster.com">http://openvms.monster.com</A> or monster.com.M <p>Post your resume via Monster, or email it to resumes@ergoxyzsol.com,&nbsp;  but'Q <br>first take off the fake xyz characters that fools the email harvesters.&nbsp;y; <p>This link might also bring you right to the job listing:  <p>&nbsp;<a href="http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=14872581&col=&cy=US&brd=1&lid=950&fn=10&q=&AVSDM=2002%2D05%2D18+17%3A32%3A00%2E000&CCD=my%2Emonster%2Ecom&JSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom&HD=company%2Emonster%2Ecom&AD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fcy%3DUS%26brd%3D1%26lid%3D950%26fn%3D10%26q%3D&Logo=1">http://jobsearch.monster.com/getjob.asp?JobID=14872581&amp;col=&amp;cy=US&amp;brd=1&amp;lid=950&amp;fn=10&amp;q=&amp;AVSDM=2002%2D05%2D18+17%3A32%3A00%2E000&amp;CCD=my% 2Emonster%2Ecom&amp;JSD=jobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom&amp;HD=company%2Emonster%2Ecom&amp;AD=http%3A%2F%2Fjobsearch%2Emonster%2Ecom%2Fjobsearch%2Easp%3Fcy%3DUS%26brd%3D1%26lid%3D950%26fn%3D10%26q%3D&amp;Logo=1</a></html>D  ( --------------8CCCAC410E67D37948D39694--   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 06:03:12 -0700- From: jodonnell@hrblock.com (Jason O'Donnell) , Subject: Re: VMS Clusters with FDDI/Ethernet= Message-ID: <9059bf6b.0205240503.3767335c@posting.google.com>.  f pyeargi@yahoo.com (Peter Y) wrote in message news:<15a86a22.0205231031.1bbc0512@posting.google.com>...C > Alright...I have a situation on my hands and I'm looking for somevH > advice on where to proceed.  I have a VMS cluster currently configuredE > with three local bootnodes attached to an HSJ via CI.  They are all F > networked via gig-E to a Cisco 6509 Switch.  I also have a satelliteB > that I am attempting to boot into the cluster.  The satellite isG > running FDDI and is attached to a DECHUB 900 Multiswitch.  The DECHUB2E > is attached to a DEC Multiswitch 700 which converts FDDI to Gigabit E > Ethernet.  In this configure, the satellite boots with no problems.S > B > However, when I add a VNSwitch900 FX module to the DECHUB900 and? > connect its Fast ethernet uplink to the Cisco switch, therebyoB > bypassing the MS700, the satellite will not boot.  The satelliteG > receives its operating system just fine as it did before, but when itmG > goes out to look for its disk partition, it hangs indefinitely.  If I"A > disconnect the Fast ethernet and reconnect the FDDI, the system / > finishes coming up.  Anyone offer any advice?r  F If the satellite is trying to now boot through the VNSwitch900, then IF would guess that may be the problem.  Does it support jumbo frames for" SCS traffic over Gigabit-Ethernet?   JMOD   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:20:37 +0100a* From: "Richard Brodie" <R.Brodie@rl.ac.uk>, Subject: Re: VMS Clusters with FDDI/Ethernet, Message-ID: <aclemj$10ic@newton.cc.rl.ac.uk>  : "Jason O'Donnell" <jodonnell@hrblock.com> wrote in message7 news:9059bf6b.0205240503.3767335c@posting.google.com...o  H > If the satellite is trying to now boot through the VNSwitch900, then IH > would guess that may be the problem.  Does it support jumbo frames for$ > SCS traffic over Gigabit-Ethernet?  D That's a thought. If one had increased NISCS_MAX_PKTSZ at both ends,B then the SCS packets might not traverse the switch. I assume thereK is no dynamic MTU discovery in SCS. If that's so, then just setting it back B to the default in the satellites parameters would fix the problem.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 10:40:06 -0700$ From: JKoska@bender.com (John Koska), Subject: Re: VMS Clusters with FDDI/Ethernet< Message-ID: <aa5ec19e.0205240940.16b0363@posting.google.com>  f pyeargi@yahoo.com (Peter Y) wrote in message news:<15a86a22.0205231031.1bbc0512@posting.google.com>...C > Alright...I have a situation on my hands and I'm looking for some H > advice on where to proceed.  I have a VMS cluster currently configuredE > with three local bootnodes attached to an HSJ via CI.  They are all F > networked via gig-E to a Cisco 6509 Switch.  I also have a satelliteB > that I am attempting to boot into the cluster.  The satellite isG > running FDDI and is attached to a DECHUB 900 Multiswitch.  The DECHUBoE > is attached to a DEC Multiswitch 700 which converts FDDI to GigabituE > Ethernet.  In this configure, the satellite boots with no problems.C > B > However, when I add a VNSwitch900 FX module to the DECHUB900 and? > connect its Fast ethernet uplink to the Cisco switch, therebydB > bypassing the MS700, the satellite will not boot.  The satelliteG > receives its operating system just fine as it did before, but when itnG > goes out to look for its disk partition, it hangs indefinitely.  If I@A > disconnect the Fast ethernet and reconnect the FDDI, the systeml/ > finishes coming up.  Anyone offer any advice?m  D I am not sure I understand your configuration completely, but I willE offer this.  Gigabit Ethernet does not support network boot from what  I read and know.  E Check out HP/Compaq webpages on AlphaServer Options (would give you a C link, but for some reason my browser can't get there at the moment)nC and look at the Gigabit Ethernet adapters (fibre and copper) in then fine print.r   :) jck
 John Koska   ------------------------------   Date: 24 May 2002 08:11:34 GMT From: phn@icke-reklam.ipsec.nu' Subject: Re: Which Unix for VMS users ? ) Message-ID: <acksjm$3ce$1@nyheter.crt.se>g  . JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:* > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:> >> The only possible use for it would be if you happen to have: >> spare capacity and cannot be bothered to buy a Sun or a= >> x86 box so that your admins/developers can get access to a  >> UNIX like environment.-    P > What about if you have a VM based 360 running mostly MVS, but want to allocate- > one partition to Linux to run new programs.o  9 What new programs ? The one on the RH-CD ? Gimme a break.2  E Mayeby it's time to ask "whats wrong with MVS" if IBM is so eager to h5 get the customers install linux on their 360-systems.h  P > Another potential use that has not been mentioned is perhaps educational. Give6 > each student his own Linux running on the mainframe.  N Seems a little silly to me. Whay should anyone use a slower and infinitly moreD expensive system then a $1000 PC for their "personal copy of un*x" ?  K > Years ago, McGill University had developed MUSIC which was a low cost andeM > highly efficient OS that ran on top of VMS and was used to provide students O > with computer access on 3270 terminals (as well as dial-up). It could support O > 149 users on a 4341 with 8 meg of RAM. (we know when it hit 150 that it woulds
 > go down :-)0  P > I could see them dump Music and install a whole bunch of Linux machines on the > IBM mainframes.u  7 Guess how many PC one may buy for the price of a z390 ?w   --   Peter Hkanson         .7         IPSec  Sverige      ( At Gothenburg Riverside ) J            Sorry about my e-mail address, but i'm trying to keep spam out,; 	   remove "icke-reklam" if you feel for mailing me. Thanx.M   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 12:38:22 +0100rU From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>e' Subject: Re: Which Unix for VMS users ?y0 Message-ID: <acl8ne$fmp$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:E  * > Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote: > = >>The only possible use for it would be if you happen to havee9 >>spare capacity and cannot be bothered to buy a Sun or a < >>x86 box so that your admins/developers can get access to a >>UNIX like environment. >> >  > P > What about if you have a VM based 360 running mostly MVS, but want to allocate- > one partition to Linux to run new programs.  >     E Doesn't save you money. A big proportion of MVS costs are the ongoingk= SW licensing and support costs, these go down if you use lessoC resource. So although you have spare capacity it isn't free becausef7 if you start using it you start getting charged for it.t      P > Another potential use that has not been mentioned is perhaps educational. Give6 > each student his own Linux running on the mainframe. >     B Why bother, save lots of money and give them a Sub 1000 dollar Sun or Linux box instead.o  B The costs of the whole S390 infrastructure (we havn't even startedA talking about storage costs) will make giving every student theirwA own box and letting them take them away and never bring them back:! seem like a very low cost option.1  B Linux on an S390 is the offshore powerboat racing solution for the IT industry.  B For those of you who arn't aware of what offshore powerboat racing entails.   1. f0 You have to be very rich or very well sponsored. 2. e/ Its highly unpleasant, you get very wet and the 4 	boats travelling at the speed they do are very very0 	bumpy, water is hard at over 100 miles an hour. 3.  0 Its dangerous, overcook it and you flip the boat 	with horrible consequences.     RegardsS Andrew Harrisons   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 08:01:48 -0600B From: clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley)' Subject: Re: Which Unix for VMS users ?n3 Message-ID: <HjJ5U5cimTON@eisner.encompasserve.org>u  c In article <tH7ErfkdoAB$@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: z > In article <VYHx8mJO$QZo@eisner.encompasserve.org>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: >> >K >> Given Nic's information below, and Bob's above, it looks the choices for1H >> people wishing to go from VMS to a Unix variant have a choice betweenK >> Linux or Solaris. What problems (from a VMS viewpoint) does Solaris have1 >> that Linux does not ? > E >    Fewer choices of platform and less reliability in my experience. ; >    On the other hand I think Sun has a better C compiler.t  H Now _that's_ an interesting comment about reliability. I've just startedG building up a Solaris system on a spare x86 system in order to get someuB exposure to it, and although it has things that VMS users would beK interested in (like printer forms management [*]) that Linux does not have, I I haven't been running it long enough to get a feeling about reliability.T  G What kinds of reliability issues does Solaris have that Linux doesn't ?7  K [*] Although I haven't got as far as setting up printers yet on the SolarisgF system yet, it looks like you _may_ have to be root in order to change- mounted forms. I must be missing something....   Simon.   -- oB Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       + Microsoft: The Lada of the computing world.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:09:33 GMTi1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> ' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing! 4 Message-ID: <htuH8.8$4g7.12567@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>  5 IBM cares about marketing. So does Sun. And it shows.   < The US Democratic Party cares about marketing. And it shows.  G HPQ and the Republican Party, who arguably offer superior products, are K often marginalized by oversights, gaffes, inattention, or nonresponsiveness- on the marketing front.a   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:47:52 +0200u9 From: Jan-Erik =?iso-8859-1?Q?S=F6derholm?= <aaa@aaa.com>sD Subject: Re: [Change topic (agian)]:  USofA'an states and languages.% Message-ID: <3CEE5298.4558B1@aaa.com>E  ; Well, since we are talking about US states and languages...i  9 In Swedish, we use the original (US-English) spelling and 1 pronunciation for all 52 (?) states. Except one !c  2 "California" is written "Kalifornien" in Sweden...   I'v no idea why.   Jan-Erik Sderholm.      Rob Young wrote: >  > L >         You don't have to leave the country to get bizarre pronunciations.O >         When visiting Pennsylvania and/or after moving back, it is surprising.J >         how many Penn. folks pronounce Illinois as "Ill-a-noise" instead$ >         of the correct "Ill-a-noi" > % >                                 Robs   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:51:23 +0100< From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>m( Subject: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins) Message-ID: <3CEDFF0B.331DBE2C@Omond.net>    John Reagan wrote:   > [...snip...] > H > Here in Boston, once you get inside of US Customs all signs are mostly? > in English only.  Not very friendly for non-English speakers.f >eB > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them!  H Careful John.  Your gripe about USofA'an coins is a rats' nest I've beenE down before (still locatable in groups.google.com).  I was threatened @ with physical violence for having the audacity to complain about@ them.  I had just come back from my first trip to the USofA, andB had been completely baffled by the the whole of the currency there? (all notes the same size and colour, the coins as you mention). > I recall walking around with pockets bulging with loose change; preferring to attempt to pay for everything with notes thatu? would obviously be big enough to cover the charge.  The locals,a? co-incidendtally it was Boston, were, ahem, "unappreciative" ofo  the difficulties with the coins.  - Just my 5 cents (or whatever it is :-) worth,0  	 Roy Omonde Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 05:55:52 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>o, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins, Message-ID: <3CEE0E28.5282634B@videotron.ca>  D > > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them!  N I haven't had a problem with this, but an Aussi once commented on what was the logic in "naming" the coins.  6 Quarter is somewhat logical (one quarter of a dollar).A Dime is a tad logical (probably derived from 1 tenth of a dollar)iL But Nickel has absolutely no logic to it, especially since it is bigger than	 the dime.   L Canadian coins that are common wth the USA in size have the numbers on them.Z Our $1 and $2 coins are unique since the USA don't have such coins in popular circulation.  J It is really strange to see $1 paper bills in the USA. In Canada, when youM want to buy a chocolate bar, you reach into your pockets, but in the USA, you82 reach into your wallet to pull out paper currency.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:49:09 +0100  From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>a, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins) Message-ID: <3CEE1AA5.6CAFFD07@Omond.net>.   JF Mezei wrote:e  F > > > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them! >2P > I haven't had a problem with this, but an Aussi once commented on what was the > logic in "naming" the coins.  H All very well, but you're probably quite used to the coins.  Believe me,J even for a native English speaker, they are very confusing until you reachQ your stage.  But then again, it's only the "furriners" who are inconvenienced :-)2  8 > Quarter is somewhat logical (one quarter of a dollar).C > Dime is a tad logical (probably derived from 1 tenth of a dollar)dN > But Nickel has absolutely no logic to it, especially since it is bigger than > the dime.P > N > Canadian coins that are common wth the USA in size have the numbers on them.\ > Our $1 and $2 coins are unique since the USA don't have such coins in popular circulation. >.L > It is really strange to see $1 paper bills in the USA. In Canada, when youO > want to buy a chocolate bar, you reach into your pockets, but in the USA, youh4 > reach into your wallet to pull out paper currency.  N Yep, that's why I ended up with the gazillions of little coins in the pockets. I must have weighed a ton(ne).   My 2.5 cents worth,D  	 Roy Omond0 Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:16:14 GMTh From: system@SendSpamHere.ORG%, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins0 Message-ID: <00A0E67B.4DAC7F02@SendSpamHere.ORG>  \ In article <3CEE0E28.5282634B@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:E >> > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them!n > O >I haven't had a problem with this, but an Aussi once commented on what was the  >logic in "naming" the coins.n >r7 >Quarter is somewhat logical (one quarter of a dollar).,B >Dime is a tad logical (probably derived from 1 tenth of a dollar)M >But Nickel has absolutely no logic to it, especially since it is bigger thanr
 >the dime. >sM >Canadian coins that are common wth the USA in size have the numbers on them.m[ >Our $1 and $2 coins are unique since the USA don't have such coins in popular circulation.b >yK >It is really strange to see $1 paper bills in the USA. In Canada, when yourN >want to buy a chocolate bar, you reach into your pockets, but in the USA, you3 >reach into your wallet to pull out paper currency.C   I don't.   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMe            r5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" 0   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:51:54 GMT4. From: peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER), Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins3 Message-ID: <uPpH8.55653$ze7.618904@news.chello.at>o  \ In article <3CEE0E28.5282634B@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:K >It is really strange to see $1 paper bills in the USA. In Canada, when youoN >want to buy a chocolate bar, you reach into your pockets, but in the USA, you3 >reach into your wallet to pull out paper currency.r  N And here, I reach into my pocket to pay EUR 0.50 (a coin) for a 100g Milka ;-)   Yes, $1 should better be a coin5+ while EUR 2 should better be a paper bill !g  5 In addition of course, not (totally) replacing them !5J But the mainstream should be $1/EUR 1 is a coin and [$2]/EUR 2 is a paper.  M OTOH 2EUR coins could be replaced or at least should change their size/weightsK because they are _very_ similar to a coin of SouthEastAsia [Thailand Baht?] L which valued about 1/4 EUR but unfortunately gets accepted by almost all/newM automats - like cigarette ones - forcing automat owners to disable 2EUR coinssK entirely - and so the ONLY REASON for EUR 2 coins got lost - leaving us all 4 with way-to-big-and-heavy pockets and no advantages)   -Peter  N PS: Why do I participate in way-off-topic discussions ? Sorry, won't do again. -- e Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER0% Network and OpenVMS system specialistn E-mail  peter@langstoeger.atP A-1030 VIENNA  AUSTRIA              I'm looking for (a) Network _and_ VMS Job(s)   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 07:53:54 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)d, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins3 Message-ID: <sLHNAbCXOmgr@eisner.encompasserve.org>,  \ In article <3CEE0E28.5282634B@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes: > 8 > Quarter is somewhat logical (one quarter of a dollar).C > Dime is a tad logical (probably derived from 1 tenth of a dollar)GN > But Nickel has absolutely no logic to it, especially since it is bigger than > the dime.  >   D    Originally the dime was made of silver and the nickle of nickle. E    That accounts for the relative size.  Why the nickle was named forJF    it's material is probably a lesson in popular culture, but at leastF    it claims to be "FIVE CENTS" which a limitted English speaker might+    more readily understand than "ONE DIME".I   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 07:55:51 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)h, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins3 Message-ID: <8rXD3YUIxr$Y@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  K In article <3CEE1AA5.6CAFFD07@Omond.net>, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> writes:' > JF Mezei wrote:t > G >> > > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them!e >> > J > All very well, but you're probably quite used to the coins.  Believe me,L > even for a native English speaker, they are very confusing until you reachS > your stage.  But then again, it's only the "furriners" who are inconvenienced :-)Y >   A    So how much is a quid?  Is there a logic to the name shilling?.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 13:04:25 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>l, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins6 Message-ID: <20020524130425.26749.qmail@gacracker.org>  D On Fri, 24 May 2002, peter@langstoeger.at (Peter LANGSTOEGER) wrote:   <snip>  N >OTOH 2EUR coins could be replaced or at least should change their size/weightL >because they are _very_ similar to a coin of SouthEastAsia [Thailand Baht?]M >which valued about 1/4 EUR but unfortunately gets accepted by almost all/new N >automats - like cigarette ones - forcing automat owners to disable 2EUR coinsL >entirely - and so the ONLY REASON for EUR 2 coins got lost - leaving us all5 >with way-to-big-and-heavy pockets and no advantages)e  K Quite correct, the 2 EUR coin is virtually identical to a 10 Baht Thai coinnH (I have a few from our last trip there). Not only are the coins the sameH weight and size, but the 10 Baht coin is also outer silver with a bronzeK coloured inner piece, close enough to even fool shopkeepers! You're spot ond for the value too.     Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.netl   ------------------------------   Date: 24 May 2002 12:51:18 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) , Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins, Message-ID: <acld06$2qvu$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>  , In article <3CEE0E28.5282634B@videotron.ca>,0  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:G |> > > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them!y |> .  D Having lived in Europe and now spending a bit of time in Canada eachC year I can say that I never look for numbers on coins.  It usually  C takes about a day to acclimate myself again, but just like American D coins I can usually recognize other coins with just a glance or even- by feel, depending on what I'm looking for.  t  Q |> I haven't had a problem with this, but an Aussi once commented on what was thet |> logic in "naming" the coins.s   Like "loonies"??   |> h9 |> Quarter is somewhat logical (one quarter of a dollar). D |> Dime is a tad logical (probably derived from 1 tenth of a dollar)- |> But Nickel has absolutely no logic to it, e  D I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I always thought it refered to the material it was made of.  O |>                                           especially since it is bigger thans |> the dime.  F So is a penny.  And we don't have that field to ourselves (well, maybeD we do now! :-) as the German 50 pfg coin was smaller than some other less valuable coins.   |> fO |> Canadian coins that are common wth the USA in size have the numbers on them.eP |> Our $1 and $2 coins are unique since the USA don't have such coins in popular |> circulation.g |> AM |> It is really strange to see $1 paper bills in the USA. In Canada, when youmP |> want to buy a chocolate bar, you reach into your pockets, but in the USA, you5 |> reach into your wallet to pull out paper currency.9  = Unless you carry your paper money in your pocket as well. :-)    bill   -- rJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   w   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 06:46:21 -0700- From: tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell) , Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins= Message-ID: <9f261edc.0205240546.56ab8dc6@posting.google.com>r   Veering OT for a minute...  8 > Quarter is somewhat logical (one quarter of a dollar).  > Yeah, but when I (Limey) lived in Massachusetts (1981-82), theF subtlety of this seemed to be lost on the locals. They seemed to thinkB that the word "quarter" meant the coin worth 25c, and nothing else8 (whereas it's surely a contraction of "quarter-dollar").  E Cue confused looks if I mentioned a "quarter of XYZ" (meaning "25% ofr@ XYZ"). I eventually cottoned on that they used the expression "a fourth of XYZ" instead.o  E Same when someone said "in back of". Confused me, cos there's alreadyiF a word in English for that: "behind". Then I realised it's the literal opposite of "in front of".  = Still haven't got all the Americanisms out of my vocab. StillgD pronounce the "c" in "schedule". And no end of confused looks when I@ ask bar staff in UK pubs where the "john" is. But at least I sayB Montana & Louisiana properly (instead of "montarna" & "louisiarna"B which really irritates me). When Clinton was in the White House, IE even heard a UK newscaster pronounce "Arkansas" as it's spelled. Dearl8 oh dear, 10 seconds research would have sorted that out.   Finished my OT meanderings...i   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 09:03:12 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)r, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins3 Message-ID: <lLmcWeyNopUb@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  \ In article <3CEE0E28.5282634B@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  L > It is really strange to see $1 paper bills in the USA. In Canada, when youO > want to buy a chocolate bar, you reach into your pockets, but in the USA, youy4 > reach into your wallet to pull out paper currency.  A 	I reach into my pocket.  When friends tell me about losing theirsC 	wallet, I tell them I keep cash in my front pockets in case I losetE 	my wallet.  If I lose the wallet , cancel the credit cards, etc. be    	pleased to still have the cash.  & 	DT for personal on-board finances ;-)   				Robe   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 09:14:44 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young),, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins3 Message-ID: <AhzFd50yTkle@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  m In article <9f261edc.0205240546.56ab8dc6@posting.google.com>, tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell) writes:    > ? > Still haven't got all the Americanisms out of my vocab. Still F > pronounce the "c" in "schedule". And no end of confused looks when IB > ask bar staff in UK pubs where the "john" is. But at least I sayD > Montana & Louisiana properly (instead of "montarna" & "louisiarna"D > which really irritates me). When Clinton was in the White House, IG > even heard a UK newscaster pronounce "Arkansas" as it's spelled. Dear : > oh dear, 10 seconds research would have sorted that out. >   C 	You don't have to leave the country to get bizarre pronunciations.iF 	When visiting Pennsylvania and/or after moving back, it is surprisingA 	how many Penn. folks pronounce Illinois as "Ill-a-noise" instead  	of the correct "Ill-a-noi"o   				Rob.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:33:30 GMTy From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGt, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins0 Message-ID: <00A0E696.DC57866D@SendSpamHere.ORG>  a In article <AhzFd50yTkle@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes::n >In article <9f261edc.0205240546.56ab8dc6@posting.google.com>, tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell) writes: >  >> S@ >> Still haven't got all the Americanisms out of my vocab. StillG >> pronounce the "c" in "schedule". And no end of confused looks when IrC >> ask bar staff in UK pubs where the "john" is. But at least I saytE >> Montana & Louisiana properly (instead of "montarna" & "louisiarna"-E >> which really irritates me). When Clinton was in the White House, IkH >> even heard a UK newscaster pronounce "Arkansas" as it's spelled. Dear; >> oh dear, 10 seconds research would have sorted that out.9 >> 8 >aD >	You don't have to leave the country to get bizarre pronunciations.G >	When visiting Pennsylvania and/or after moving back, it is surprisingiB >	how many Penn. folks pronounce Illinois as "Ill-a-noise" instead >	of the correct "Ill-a-noi" >' >				Rob      J Ne'er heard that in all my years as a Penna. native.  Where did you happen to hear that adulteration?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMc            r5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" i   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 09:39:36 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)-, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins3 Message-ID: <tUMm8igKyMLD@eisner.encompasserve.org>t  P In article <00A0E696.DC57866D@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:c > In article <AhzFd50yTkle@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes: o >>In article <9f261edc.0205240546.56ab8dc6@posting.google.com>, tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell) writes:  >> >>> A >>> Still haven't got all the Americanisms out of my vocab. StilluH >>> pronounce the "c" in "schedule". And no end of confused looks when ID >>> ask bar staff in UK pubs where the "john" is. But at least I sayF >>> Montana & Louisiana properly (instead of "montarna" & "louisiarna"F >>> which really irritates me). When Clinton was in the White House, II >>> even heard a UK newscaster pronounce "Arkansas" as it's spelled. Deara< >>> oh dear, 10 seconds research would have sorted that out. >>>  >>E >>	You don't have to leave the country to get bizarre pronunciations. H >>	When visiting Pennsylvania and/or after moving back, it is surprisingC >>	how many Penn. folks pronounce Illinois as "Ill-a-noise" insteadl >>	of the correct "Ill-a-noi"  >>	 >>				Robt >  >  > L > Ne'er heard that in all my years as a Penna. native.  Where did you happen > to hear that adulteration? >   8 	From my step-sister.  She may be doing it just to annoy; 	me.  From co-workers , one fellow in particular but don't 2 	recall other instances.   				Robg   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 09:41:13 -0500 + From: Christopher Smith <csmith@amdocs.com>t, Subject: RE: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coinsJ Message-ID: <7E008308CD77154485FEF878168D078E01784688@CMIMAIL1.amdocs.com>   --=_IS_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: text/plain;i 	charset="iso-8859-1"t   > -----Original Message-----D > From: young_r@encompasserve.org [mailto:young_r@encompasserve.org]  8 > >>	You don't have to leave the country to get bizarre  > pronunciations.n= > >>	When visiting Pennsylvania and/or after moving back, it i > is surprisingtE > >>	how many Penn. folks pronounce Illinois as "Ill-a-noise" insteadc > >>	of the correct "Ill-a-noi"c  @ > > Ne'er heard that in all my years as a Penna. native.  Where  > did you happen > > to hear that adulteration?  : > 	From my step-sister.  She may be doing it just to annoy= > 	me.  From co-workers , one fellow in particular but don't - > 	recall other instances.  @ Of course, you can't really say that the common pronunciation is@ proper, either, given that Illinois was named by the French, the" 'ois' would be pronounced "wah" :)   Chrisw    ! Christopher Smith, Perl Developer  Amdocs - Champaign, IL   /usr/bin/perl -e '? print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n");t '     --=_IS_MIME_Boundary--K --=_IS_MIME_Boundary----_=_NextPart_000_01C20331.52193620=_IS_MIME_Boundarye) Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-asciia Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7biti Content-Disposition: inline   U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------y  C The information contained in this message is proprietary of Amdocs,o1 protected from disclosure, and may be privileged. N The information is intended to be conveyed only to the designated recipient(s)L of the message. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,P you are hereby notified that any dissemination, use, distribution or copying of ? this communication is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. eN If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately> by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer.
 Thank you.  U -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------M  M --=_IS_MIME_Boundary----_=_NextPart_000_01C20331.52193620=_IS_MIME_Boundary--    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:55:19 +01008 From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>m, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins) Message-ID: <3CEE5457.1106A296@Omond.net>n   Bob Koehler wrote:  M > In article <3CEE1AA5.6CAFFD07@Omond.net>, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> writes:  > > JF Mezei wrote:e > >sI > >> > > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them!a > >> > >lL > > All very well, but you're probably quite used to the coins.  Believe me,N > > even for a native English speaker, they are very confusing until you reachU > > your stage.  But then again, it's only the "furriners" who are inconvenienced :-)e > >u >iC >    So how much is a quid?  Is there a logic to the name shilling?s  B "Quid" is a word I personally never use, except in "Quid pro quo".   What's a "shilling" ?e            B P.s. of course, I know what a shilling used to be.  People in this9 country (UK) under the age of about 25 would probably notn: know.  Fortunately we got rid of such stupid denominations> a long time ago (1971 ?).  If only we could get rid of all the@ stupid Imperial measures as well.  And as for Fahrenheit ... :-)  > P.p.s. "shilling" comes from Old English "scilling", according to my dictionary.[  C just my 1.25 cents worth (getting asymptotically closer to zero :-)s  	 Roy Omond  Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:19:33 +0100: From: Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> , Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins) Message-ID: <3CEE5A05.F3585240@Omond.net>o   Bob Koehler wrote:   > [...snip...] >i >    So how much is a quid?a  ? Unless I'm mistaken, a quid is about one buck, two quarters and(E a nickle (or is it a dime ?  :-)   As to what that *looks* like, I've  no idea.  	 Roy Omonda Blue Bubble Ltd.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 08:26:59 -0700s# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>E, Subject: RE: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEOIFAAA.tom@kednos.com>s  5 I wonder, does it come from latin, as in quid pro quoi     >-----Original Message-----1' >From: Roy Omond [mailto:Roy@Omond.net] # >Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 8:20 AMe >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com, >Subject: Re: [Change topic]: USofA'an coins >h >N >Bob Koehler wrote:o >  >> [...snip...]g >> >>    So how much is a quid? >o@ >Unless I'm mistaken, a quid is about one buck, two quarters andF >a nickle (or is it a dime ?  :-)   As to what that *looks* like, I've	 >no idea.0 >e
 >Roy Omond >Blue Bubble Ltd.l >n >- >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.R; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/20020 >r ---o& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:39:02 GMT * From: Paul Anderson <paul.anderson@hp.com>, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins5 Message-ID: <240520021333346855%paul.anderson@hp.com>a  C In article <3CEDFF0B.331DBE2C@Omond.net>, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>e wrote:   > John Reagan wrote: >  > > [...snip...] > > J > > Here in Boston, once you get inside of US Customs all signs are mostlyA > > in English only.  Not very friendly for non-English speakers.l > > D > > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them! > J > Careful John.  Your gripe about USofA'an coins is a rats' nest I've been5 > down before (still locatable in groups.google.com).m  F There was a reasonable discussion recently in the rec.collecting.coinsD newsgroup about a redesign of US coins.  There were some good ideas,G including putting the more easily understood numbers on them instead oft% using "nickel", "dime" and "quarter".   D > I had just come back from my first trip to the USofA, and had beenF > completely baffled by the the whole of the currency there (all notes6 > the same size and colour, the coins as you mention).  D The color problem may be solved in a few years, as the government isB investigating using different colors.  I haven't heard about using3 different sizes, although that would be better too.-  @ > I recall walking around with pockets bulging with loose changeC > preferring to attempt to pay for everything with notes that would:. > obviously be big enough to cover the charge.  A The US coin and bill denominations are outdated.  Therefore, mostrD people are now in the habit of spending bills and receiving coins asB change.  The coins get put into a big jar at home instead of being spent.  E As inflation changes the dollar value of things, the system should behC adjusted so that bills continue for larger denominations only.  TheeG value of a US dollar is comparable to a quarter of thirty years ago andED it is long since time to discontinue the making of dollar bills.  It$ would save $500 million a year, too!  5 In article <3CEE0E28.5282634B@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei2% <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote:0  L > It is really strange to see $1 paper bills in the USA. In Canada, when youO > want to buy a chocolate bar, you reach into your pockets, but in the USA, youn4 > reach into your wallet to pull out paper currency.  F I don't.  I haven't used a dollar bill in two years ever since the new; dollar coin came out.  It's faster and easier for everyone.r  @ I was in Vancouver for Canadian DECUS the first day the CanadianC two-dollar coin was released.  It was so easy to be able to pay fori most purchases with coins.   Paul   --    Paul Anderson   OpenVMS Engineeringc   Hewlett-Packard Companyq   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.286 ************************