1 INFO-VAX	Sat, 25 May 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 287       Contents:2 Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?2 Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?2 RE: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie?" RE: (Change topic): USofA'an coins" Re: (Change topic): USofA'an coins  BATCH_INFO.COM  improved version Building csws 1.2 from source ! Re: C and PL/1 compiling together ! RE: C and PL/1 compiling together ! RE: C and PL/1 compiling together ! Re: C and PL/1 compiling together ! RE: C and PL/1 compiling together ! Re: C and PL/1 compiling together ! Re: C and PL/1 compiling together P Clustering VAX systems with IA-64 systems (was: Re: DECUS Lyon: Another VMS summP Re: Clustering VAX systems with IA-64 systems (was: Re: DECUS Lyon: Another VMS * Re: DECUS Lyon: Another VMS summary (long) Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures  Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures  Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures  Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures 1 Re: does Digital Networks not want any business?? 1 Re: does Digital Networks not want any business?? 4 Re: Gartner rides again (was Re: HP Product Roadmap); RE: HP doesn't act positively towards VMS any more than CPQ ; Re: HP doesn't act positively towards VMS any more than CPQ B Re: HP doesn't act positively towards VMS any more than CPQ or DEC. Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DEC. Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DECD Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC)D Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC)D Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC)D Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC)D Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC)3 Important information regarding your usenet service  Re: mkisofs for Vax D Re: Most unusual resident in a system ?, was: Re: No new Alpha sales Re: OpenVMS SAN % Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C % Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C % Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C % Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C % Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C ) Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ) Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ) Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ) RE: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ) RE: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) ) RE: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)  Re: Show cluster not working Re: Show cluster not working Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?  Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?  Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?  Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?  Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug? ' Re: SKC Morphs Again... We're Now SKHPC / Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ?? / Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ??  Re: smtp, firewalls and NAT 0 Re: TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-time0 Re: TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-time VAX maintenance... until when?" Re: VAX maintenance... until when?" Re: VAX maintenance... until when? Re: Who cares about marketing! Re: Who cares about marketing! Re: Who cares about marketing! Re: Who cares about marketing! Re: Who cares about marketing! Re: Who cares about marketing! Re: Who cares about marketing! Re: Who cares about marketing!# Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins # Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------   Date: 24 May 2002 18:16:08 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) ; Subject: Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? + Message-ID: <acm018$35a$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>   3 In article <gJ2eSDumVFrH@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 0  koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: |>I |>    Many visitors have commented on the sole use of English in American I |>    "International" airports.  Unfortunately "International" only means > |>    the presence of customs, not an actual attempt toward an |>    international audience.   @ Actually, we have one of them "International" airports. The onlyB Customs is outside the airport and strictly for freight.  There isB however an additional "International Airport Tax" applied to every! passenger ticket sold here now.      |>  E |> > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them!  |>  8 |>    Sure they do.  Every one has the year right on it. |>  K |>    You mean "ONE DIME" isn't part of the international lexicon yet?  8-)  |>    D A lot of the terminology for coinage is just so old its real meaningB has been lost in time. For example:  An american quarter dollar isD also called "2 bits".  Why?  Because once long ago (before there wasE american money) there was a spanish gold coin of equivalent value to  C what became the dollar.  It could be broken into eight pieces (this F the old pirate jargon about "pieces of eight") of course, two of theseE was equivalent to a quarter of the coin.  Thus two bits is a quarter. E The jargon just carried over to the coinage that replaced the spanish D gold coin in the new world.  And exists to this day although I doubtE you could find 10 people on the street who actually know why "2 bits" 
 is a quarter.   ( Now, could this get any more off topic??   bill   --  J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>       ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:05:52 GMT L From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"); Subject: Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? 8 Message-ID: <00A0E6B4.93C3B020@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  c In article <gJ2eSDumVFrH@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: O >In article <3CED1E7E.4090605@hp.com>, John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com> writes: J >> Here in Boston, once you get inside of US Customs all signs are mostly @ >> in English only.  Not very friendly for non-English speakers. > G >   Many visitors have commented on the sole use of English in American G >   "International" airports.  Unfortunately "International" only means < >   the presence of customs, not an actual attempt toward an >   international audience.  > C >> My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them!  > 6 >   Sure they do.  Every one has the year right on it. > I >   You mean "ONE DIME" isn't part of the international lexicon yet?  8-)  >   I It ought to be.  We got "dime" from Spanish, if memory serves.  (I think  ! we also got "dollar" from there.)    -- Alan   O =============================================================================== 0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056 M  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210 O ===============================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:13:42 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> ; Subject: RE: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? 9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJICEPDFAAA.tom@kednos.com>    >-----Original Message----- , >From: "Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"( >[mailto:winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU]# >Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:06 PM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com< >Subject: Re: "Best" programming language on VMS for newbie? >  > 4 >In article <gJ2eSDumVFrH@eisner.encompasserve.org>,0 >koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:3 >>In article <3CED1E7E.4090605@hp.com>, John Reagan  ><john.reagan@hp.com> writes: J >>> Here in Boston, once you get inside of US Customs all signs are mostlyA >>> in English only.  Not very friendly for non-English speakers.  >>H >>   Many visitors have commented on the sole use of English in AmericanH >>   "International" airports.  Unfortunately "International" only means= >>   the presence of customs, not an actual attempt toward an  >>   international audience. >>D >>> My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them! >>7 >>   Sure they do.  Every one has the year right on it.  >>J >>   You mean "ONE DIME" isn't part of the international lexicon yet?  8-) >> > I >It ought to be.  We got "dime" from Spanish, if memory serves.  (I think " >we also got "dollar" from there.)L I think dollar most recently came from German "Taler" and that came from ... >  >-- Alan > D >===================================================================
 >============ 1 > Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU @ > Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:
 >650/926-3056 B > Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA >94309-0210 D >===================================================================
 >============  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002  >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:22:19 -0400 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>+ Subject: RE: (Change topic): USofA'an coins - Message-ID: <0033000065452047000002L072*@MHS>   C =0AAnd one of the more ironic unintended consequences of the war on H [drugs/terror/money laundering/tax evasion/insert campaign-du-jour here= ] C is that the larger denomination bills are either unavailable or are  harder to get.  = I remember my grandfather showing me a $1000 (USD) bill once.   E Nowadays, I understand that the $1000s have been completely withdrawn D from circulation, and that in order to get a $500, you have to go to@ the bank and sign for them (and I'll bet you get reported to the6 government as having engaged in suspcicious activity.)   WWWebb   > H > As inflation changes the dollar value of things, the system should be=  E > adjusted so that bills continue for larger denominations only.  The H > value of a US dollar is comparable to a quarter of thirty years ago a= ndF > it is long since time to discontinue the making of dollar bills.  It& > would save $500 million a year, too! >   H I gotta disagree with that. I hate carrying coins around. They're heavy=	  and make H clinky sounds when you walk with them in your pockets. I'd like to get = rid of4 them all and round all prices to the nearest dollar.   --   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com  San Francisco=   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:32:59 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)+ Subject: Re: (Change topic): USofA'an coins K Message-ID: <rdeininger-2405021933000001@11cust83.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   : In article <0033000065452047000002L072*@MHS>, WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote:  D >=0AAnd one of the more ironic unintended consequences of the war onI >[drugs/terror/money laundering/tax evasion/insert campaign-du-jour here=  >]D >is that the larger denomination bills are either unavailable or are >harder to get.  > > >I remember my grandfather showing me a $1000 (USD) bill once. > F >Nowadays, I understand that the $1000s have been completely withdrawnE >from circulation, and that in order to get a $500, you have to go to A >the bank and sign for them (and I'll bet you get reported to the 7 >government as having engaged in suspcicious activity.)    Not quite accurate.   J Denominations above $100 include $500, $1000, $5000, and $10000.  The lastF series was 1934, but some notes were printed later than that, and theyH were still issued into the late 1960s.  In the modern era of small-sizedJ notes (since 1928), the large denominations were issued as Federal Reserve? Notes and Gold Certificates.  Gold certificates are rare today.   A All U.S. currency ever issued is still legal tender, though it is > difficult to spend the unusual notes at your local 7-11 store.  G Officially, anything bigger than $100 is withdrawn from circulation and J destroyed whenever a Federal Reserve Bank gets their hands on it.  RegularF banks are supposed to turn in any large bills they get, but they don'tJ always do it. A report published every 2 years records the number of large, denomination bills that have been withdrawn.  J $500 and $1000 notes are fairly common in the collecting community.  $5000F and $10000 notes are much harder to find, but not really rare.  UnlessI they are in horrid condition, they are worth significantly more than face  value.  I There are also some older $10000 gold certificates that were redeemed and F punch-cancelled.  They were being stored in a federal building when itG caught fire in 1935.  Boxes of notes were thrown into the street during J the fire, and quite a few were saved by passersby.  There have no monetary< value, but they are worth a few hundred bucks to collectors.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 15:00:07 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman)) Subject: BATCH_INFO.COM  improved version = Message-ID: <343f30ae.0205241400.7837818d@posting.google.com>   E This version doesn't require a space between the entry number and the A SHOW PROCESS qualifiers. And you can have spaces between trailing  qualifiers.  (Contains 63 lines.)  C Disclaimer: JMHO  Alan E. Feldman    afeldman atski gfigroup dotski  com      . $!+  BATCH_INFO.COM  v1.1  (C) Alan E. Feldman $!9 $!   PURPOSE: To get the PID of a batch job and use it in % $!            a SHOW PROCESS command.  $!# $!   Parameters:  P1 - Entry number A $!                P2 - Qualifiers for SHOW PROC/ID=pid (optional)  $!; $!   Example:   $ BAT*CH_INFO :== @disk:[dir]BATCH_INFO.COM " $!              $ BAT 234/ACC/QUOT $! $!!  Define status codes:  $ $ $    BATCH_INFO__STATUS = %X180080006 $    BATCH_INFO__SUCCESS = BATCH_INFO__STATUS + %X00018 $    BATCH_INFO__CONTROL_Y = BATCH_INFO__STATUS + %X000C $  $!!  Establish handlers: $ ! $    STATUS = BATCH_INFO__SUCCESS & $    ON CONTROL_Y THEN GOTO _CONTROL_Y  $    ON WARNING THEN GOTO _ERROR $  $    WSO := WRITE SYS$OUTPUT $  $    P1ORIG = P1 $    P1 = F$ELEMENT(0,"/",P1)  $    P1END = P1ORIG - P1 $  $    SHOW ENTRY/FULL 'P1' 7 $    BATCH_PID = F$GETQUI("DISPLAY_ENTRY","JOB_PID",P1)  $    IF (BATCH_PID .EQS. "")	 $    THEN  $        WSO " "' $        WSO "No PID; job not running."  $        GOTO _EXIT 
 $    ENDIF $    WSO " "$ $    WSO "Process creation time: ",-1          F$CVTIME(F$GETJPI(BATCH_PID,"LOGINTIM")) 3 $    WSO "Image: ''F$GETJPI(BATCH_PID,"IMAGNAME")'" ! $    SHOW PROCESS /ID='BATCH_PID' 9 $    IF (P1END.NES."" .OR. P2.NES."") THEN SHOW PROCESS - C          /ID='BATCH_PID' 'P1END' 'P2' 'P3' 'P4' 'P5' 'P6' 'P7' 'P8'  $    WSO " "7 $    SHOW SYSTEM/BATCH/OUTPUT=SYS$SCRATCH:AEFBAT.AEFTMP 9 $    SEARCH /NOHIGHLIGHT      SYS$SCRATCH:AEFBAT.AEFTMP - 3          'BATCH_PID',"on node","Process Name"/EXACT  $  $_CONTROL_Y:# $    STATUS = BATCH_INFO__CONTROL_Y  $    GOTO _EXIT  $  $_ERROR: $    STATUS = $STATUS  $    GOTO _EXIT  $  $_EXIT: 
 $    SET NOON = $    IF (F$SEARCH("SYS$SCRATCH:AEFBAT.AEFTMP").NES."") THEN - 0         DELETE/NOLOG SYS$SCRATCH:AEFBAT.AEFTMP;* $    WSO " "  $    EXIT STATUS .OR. %X10000000   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 11:44:09 -0700 , From: "James Gessling" <jgessling@yahoo.com>& Subject: Building csws 1.2 from source4 Message-ID: <acm1m4$q39k7$1@ID-46415.news.dfncis.de>  
 Greetings,  L Has anyone been able to do this, I am trippng up on mod_proxy.c.  Like this:   $ CCK /DEBUG=(TRACE,SYMBOLS)/OPTIMIZE=(TUNE=EV56)/LIST=[.LIS]/MACHINE_CODE/SHOW=( L EXPANSION)/MMS_DEPENDENCIES=(FILE=[.LIS],NOSYSTEM_INCLUDE_FILES)/OBJECT=[.OB J]/DL EFINE=(RELEASE_BUILD)/INCLUDE=([],[APACHE.SRC.INCLUDE],[APACHE.SRC.OS.OPENVM S])/ - L PREFIX_LIBRARY_ENTRIES=(ALL_ENTRIES)/WARNINGS=ENABLE=(UNINIT)/POINTER_SIZE=3 2 [A# PACHE.SRC.MODULES.PROXY]MOD_PROXY.Ci  =         struct dirconn_entry *list = (struct dirconn_entry *)" conf->dirconn->elt s;	 ........^w! %CC-E-BADSTMT, Invalid statement.cH at line number 413 in file ROOT$:[APACHE.SRC.MODULES.PROXY]MOD_PROXY.C;1  <             direct_connect = list[ii].matcher(&list[ii], r); .............................^< %CC-E-UNDECLARED, In this statement, "list" is not declared.H at line number 416 in file ROOT$:[APACHE.SRC.MODULES.PROXY]MOD_PROXY.C;1  9 And by the way, I sent mail to the feedback link and got:i0 550 <openvms.csws-apache@hp.com>... User unknown   Not good all around.   Thanks,  Jim   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 20:01:08 +0000 (UTC) , From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)* Subject: Re: C and PL/1 compiling together. Message-ID: <acm664$sna$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   bubbapig@hotmail.com (Jeffrey Cameron) writes in article <b22333b7.0205240638.6277dd84@posting.google.com> dated 24 May 2002 07:38:45 -0700:G >I am trying to integrate a module re-written in C++ back into a larger G >PL/1 program. The real problem is with a global array which is kept ina7 >the PL/1 part which i need to access from my C++ code.e  L We use /extern=common/nomember_align on our CC and CXX commands and /g_float6 on the PLI commands so they can share data structures.  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 13:03:32 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>l* Subject: RE: C and PL/1 compiling together9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEPAFAAA.tom@kednos.com>m  3 Which version(s) of PL/I are you currently running?    >-----Original Message-----u4 >From: Keith A. Lewis [mailto:lewis@PROBE.mitre.org]# >Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 1:01 PM  >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ >Subject: Re: C and PL/1 compiling togethers >t >S: >bubbapig@hotmail.com (Jeffrey Cameron) writes in article @ ><b22333b7.0205240638.6277dd84@posting.google.com> dated 24 May  >2002 07:38:45 -0700:-H >>I am trying to integrate a module re-written in C++ back into a largerH >>PL/1 program. The real problem is with a global array which is kept in8 >>the PL/1 part which i need to access from my C++ code. >eA >We use /extern=common/nomember_align on our CC and CXX commands  
 >and /g_floatg7 >on the PLI commands so they can share data structures.H >L, >--Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org? >The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.  >6 >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.1; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).sA >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002m >n ----& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 20:55:03 +0000 (UTC)a, From: lewis@PROBE.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)* Subject: RE: C and PL/1 compiling together. Message-ID: <acm9b7$sqk$1@newslocal.mitre.org>   "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes in article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEPAFAAA.tom@kednos.com> dated Fri, 24 May 2002 13:03:32 -0700:4 >Which version(s) of PL/I are you currently running?   Me?  DEC PL/I V4.2A-112.  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.org > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 14:25:53 -0700" From: cstranslations@msn.com (Joe)* Subject: Re: C and PL/1 compiling together= Message-ID: <d56d1c2d.0205241325.789c5b72@posting.google.com>-  d "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message news:<CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEOEFAAA.tom@kednos.com>...? > PL/I maps the name to upper case, what is the name in the C++1	 > module?o  F I haven't done a lot of C++; however, in addition to the above are youA "doing something" about name mangling/decoration in the C++ code?t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:33:10 -0700i# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>n* Subject: RE: C and PL/1 compiling together9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEPEFAAA.tom@kednos.com>a  ; Sorry, can't help you on that, mercifully I have no need toi: write C++, but in the example that was cited, if it were C? code the name should be INVRECA not invreca in order to resolver> the symbol.  My interest is in the PL/I side of things which a3 product that we provide, for both OpenVMS and Tru64y   >-----Original Message----- * >From: Joe [mailto:cstranslations@msn.com]# >Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:26 PMN >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com+ >Subject: Re: C and PL/1 compiling together  >t >t0 >"Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message 6 >news:<CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEOEFAAA.tom@kednos.com>...@ >> PL/I maps the name to upper case, what is the name in the C++
 >> module? >eG >I haven't done a lot of C++; however, in addition to the above are youoB >"doing something" about name mangling/decoration in the C++ code? >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.); >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).cA >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002  >  ---g& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:19:59 -0400 . From: "Jeffrey Cameron" <bubbapig@hotmail.com>* Subject: Re: C and PL/1 compiling together; Message-ID: <SUzH8.15832$Mn6.1805041@news20.bellglobal.com>n  L I will give that a try, seems most logical, I was looking at /extern optionsJ just before I left work but its sunny and its friday so i'll be back at it	 Monday ;)   " I'll let you know how it turns out   Thanks!o  9 "Keith A. Lewis" <lewis@PROBE.mitre.org> wrote in messagea( news:acm664$sna$1@newslocal.mitre.org...: > bubbapig@hotmail.com (Jeffrey Cameron) writes in articleC <b22333b7.0205240638.6277dd84@posting.google.com> dated 24 May 2002K 07:38:45 -0700: I > >I am trying to integrate a module re-written in C++ back into a largertI > >PL/1 program. The real problem is with a global array which is kept ins9 > >the PL/1 part which i need to access from my C++ code.h >eE > We use /extern=common/nomember_align on our CC and CXX commands and  /g_float8 > on the PLI commands so they can share data structures. >a- > --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgt@ > The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:18:52 -0400 . From: "Jeffrey Cameron" <bubbapig@hotmail.com>* Subject: Re: C and PL/1 compiling together; Message-ID: <PTzH8.15811$Mn6.1804667@news20.bellglobal.com>   L You can wrap any function names with extern "C" { int func(); } to avoid the name mangling issue.  $ This much I figured out on my own :)    / "Joe" <cstranslations@msn.com> wrote in messagea7 news:d56d1c2d.0205241325.789c5b72@posting.google.com...:0 > "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message5 news:<CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIMEOEFAAA.tom@kednos.com>...9A > > PL/I maps the name to upper case, what is the name in the C++= > > module?= >=H > I haven't done a lot of C++; however, in addition to the above are youC > "doing something" about name mangling/decoration in the C++ code?s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:48:27 -0400g- From: "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca>cY Subject: Clustering VAX systems with IA-64 systems (was: Re: DECUS Lyon: Another VMS summo5 Message-ID: <acm1up$qjs24$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>,  ? "Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in messageo$ news:acc4tp$4j4$5@web1.cup.hp.com... >...I >   I expect LANCP will be ported.  That said, we have not yet identifiedrL >   customers that want to cluster VAX systems with IA-64 systems -- support >...  I I hope you meant to say "not yet identified all the customers." The way I I read what you typed is that *NO* customers responded to the question thatoG was previously asked in OpenVMS Times. Either my reading is wrong, yoursA statement is wrong, or something happened to the e-mail I sent totK openvmstimes@compaq.com on 30-JAN-2002. We canceled plans to go from VAX totH Alpha last June, the next step will be from VAX to IA-64. We may need to? cluster some boxes during the transition to make things easier.y   -- Peter WeaverL Opinions are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of my employer, nor theK company that it sub-contracts to, nor the company that it sub-contracts to.h   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:02:16 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)Y Subject: Re: Clustering VAX systems with IA-64 systems (was: Re: DECUS Lyon: Another VMS =K Message-ID: <rdeininger-2405021902160001@11cust83.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>D  D In article <acm1up$qjs24$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de>, "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote:   @ >"Hoff Hoffman" <hoffman@xdelta.zko.dec.nospam> wrote in message% >news:acc4tp$4j4$5@web1.cup.hp.com...= >>...=J >>   I expect LANCP will be ported.  That said, we have not yet identifiedM >>   customers that want to cluster VAX systems with IA-64 systems -- support  >>...  >iJ >I hope you meant to say "not yet identified all the customers." The way IJ >read what you typed is that *NO* customers responded to the question thatH >was previously asked in OpenVMS Times. Either my reading is wrong, yourB >statement is wrong, or something happened to the e-mail I sent toL >openvmstimes@compaq.com on 30-JAN-2002. We canceled plans to go from VAX toI >Alpha last June, the next step will be from VAX to IA-64. We may need toe@ >cluster some boxes during the transition to make things easier.  I Your company should contact OpenVMS product management folks, directly oraE via an Ambassador, and make your needs known.  OpenVMS Times (now HPStG Times) is not particularly focussed on VMS, and your message might have $ missed the people who should see it.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 23:12:00 GMTo1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>o3 Subject: Re: DECUS Lyon: Another VMS summary (long)e5 Message-ID: <4NzH8.55$YV2.38843@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>b  @ "Brad McCusker" <brad.mccuskerNOSP@Mcompaq.com> wrote in message2 news:xrUF8.1$m16.236655@cacnews.cac.cpqcorp.net... >a? > "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote in messageb( > news:ac4h1801ij2@enews1.newsguy.com...2 > > Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@free.fr> wrote:C > > > About VAX no, but Mark did say that HP still supports PDPs...  > > L > > Really?  That's interesting.  I wonder what that support consists of, is > it5 > > more than simply pointing the customer at Mentec.k >oI > Didier mis-heard what Mark said.  Mark specifically mentioned "...still  > supported by Mentec..."i >P   You got it, verbatim.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:06:54 GMT:1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>r& Subject: Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures5 Message-ID: <2jvH8.14$4g7.29201@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>0  : "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message! news:3CEE7989.4B432C08@Free.fr...  > "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:  > >:> > > "Didier Morandi" <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> wrote in message% > > news:3CEE52AA.4C889581@Free.fr...n, > > > today: http://212.129.54.17/decus_lyon > 5 > http://dtl.dnsalias.net/decus_lyon should work too.i >lD > > The link is alive and well today. Some great photos therein. One erratum:$ > > Shannon Knows Perrier, not wine. >n > Fixed. >00 > > Thanks for putting the photos up on the Web! >,3 > u'r welcome, t'wuz a pleasure to see ya again :-)   B Likewise. And it was a pleasure to see a Mac put to good use, too!  C http://dtl.dnsalias.net/decus_lyon/VMS%20boots%20on%20Macintosh.jpgu   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:24:55 GMT.! From: Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net>m& Subject: Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures> Message-ID: <Xns9218926475144acsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>  ? "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> enlightened us withi. news:2jvH8.14$4g7.29201@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net:    > ? > Likewise. And it was a pleasure to see a Mac put to good use,s > too! i > F > http://dtl.dnsalias.net/decus_lyon/VMS%20boots%20on%20Macintosh.jpg   = There are easier ways to run VMS on Apple hardware (than whattA appears to be something running under Windows-something by way ofB Virtual PC)   = Simh 2.9-*  appears to work just fine on Mac OS X with nary ai$ Microsoft software entity anywhere.    -Andy- -- p   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 20:48:10 +0200 - From: Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr>e& Subject: Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures' Message-ID: <3CEE8AE9.F1DF2B24@Free.fr>d   Andy wrote:  > ? > There are easier ways to run VMS on Apple hardware (than whathC > appears to be something running under Windows-something by way of1
 > Virtual PC)f   Correct.  ? > Simh 2.9-*  appears to work just fine on Mac OS X with nary ae% > Microsoft software entity anywhere.1   where from?n   D.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 20:04:00 GMTb! From: Andy <acs@fcgnet.works.net>y& Subject: Re: DECUS Lyon: some pictures> Message-ID: <Xns9218A330B95FBacsfcgnetworksnet@216.166.71.232>  ; Didier Morandi <Didier.Morandi@Free.fr> enlightened us withn  news:3CEE8AE9.F1DF2B24@Free.fr:   
 > Andy wrote:s >>  @ >> There are easier ways to run VMS on Apple hardware (than whatA >> appears to be something running under Windows-something by wayh >> of Virtual PC)a > 
 > Correct. > @ >> Simh 2.9-*  appears to work just fine on Mac OS X with nary a& >> Microsoft software entity anywhere. > 
 > where from?g  7 [Must be the Friday before a 3 day weekend (in the US)]a   [Q] Where is simh ?P  & [A]    	http://simh.trailing-edge.com/  ( [Q] Where did I get a Mac OS X version ?B [A] I compiled it from the source. I started a journal of this at:  C http://radio.weblogs.com/0104508/stories/2002/04/18/gettingVmsRunni  ngOnSimh296.html s  ; but as you can probably tell... I ran out enthusiasm before @ getting very far into it (the journal anyway, I just haven't had- much chance to do anything with simh lately) U   -Andy- --     ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:42:19 -0400n2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger): Subject: Re: does Digital Networks not want any business??K Message-ID: <rdeininger-2405021842190001@11cust83.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>$  O In article <00A0E67E.013974B5@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:B  D >I've been trying to contact DNPG about some equipment price quotes. >.C >Sales@ and every email address from prior conversations with folksnE >at DNPG have been rejected by their mail handler.  Does anybody heresC >have an address that will get me in contact with somebody at DNPG?)  C According to the stuff they were handing out an an event on Monday:C   Digital Networks www.digitalnetworks.netO 1-877-241-9594  H They are still making and selling the DECserver 900TM and DECserver 90M,3 as well as various products of more recent vintage.T   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 01:02:51 GMT: From: system@SendSpamHere.ORGC: Subject: Re: does Digital Networks not want any business??0 Message-ID: <00A0E6EE.C7A1EA66@SendSpamHere.ORG>   In article <rdeininger-2405021842190001@11cust83.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger) writes:P >In article <00A0E67E.013974B5@SendSpamHere.ORG>, system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote: > E >>I've been trying to contact DNPG about some equipment price quotes.a >>D >>Sales@ and every email address from prior conversations with folksF >>at DNPG have been rejected by their mail handler.  Does anybody hereD >>have an address that will get me in contact with somebody at DNPG? >oD >According to the stuff they were handing out an an event on Monday: >, >Digital NetworksT >www.digitalnetworks.net >1-877-241-9594  >AI >They are still making and selling the DECserver 900TM and DECserver 90M,]4 >as well as various products of more recent vintage.  C I made a purchase as of 6 May 2002 and exchanged email with a salesEA person that day.  None of the addresses that I have in my archive.A appear to function.  I also just tried their server at 9pm est 24dB May and it appears to be dead.  Wanna bet it's a Mickey$oft issue?   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMO             5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" ;   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 00:03:56 GMTi1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>O= Subject: Re: Gartner rides again (was Re: HP Product Roadmap) 5 Message-ID: <MxAH8.71$YV2.58683@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>c  : "Dave Weatherall" <djweath@attglobal.net> wrote in message/ news:DTiotGxQ0bj6-pn2-IieKdQOb8xKT@localhost... 5 > On Thu, 9 May 2002 17:11:45 UTC, "Terry C. Shannon"i! > <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:  >j > >R@ > > "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote in message6 > > news:abe4fc$30b$1@fizban.fizban.pprd.abbott.com...L > > > Who was the fellow that came from Gartner, went to DEC and started theF > > > affinity program?  Forgot his name but when he rode off into the sunset > > many > > > said:/ > >gJ > > That would have been Wes Melling. He was the architect of the AffinityL > > Program, one of the most damnfool exercises in self-destruction that the VMSn% > > Group ever inflicted upon itself.t >nF > I hate to say this but at the time it was first mooted, it seemed toE > me to be a good idea. I had visions of developing the GUI on NT andnH > moving it to VMS V6.??. X/Motif seemed (or so I was led to believe) toE > be a pain. It never happened and our UI is still VT100 esc-sequenceR > based.  L As originally articulated, looked like a good idea. As actually implemented,# it sucked in a most mighty fashion.u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:35:11 -0400 * From: WILLIAM WEBB <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov>D Subject: RE: HP doesn't act positively towards VMS any more than CPQ- Message-ID: <0033000065425806000002L062*@MHS>@  E =0APerhaps it's that "nonymous.com" reply-to address you're using, a.2 :^)4   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETm" Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:16 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETD Subject: RE: HP doesn't act positively towards VMS any more than CPQ    . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageA news:e7AG8.78831$t8_.5150@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...cH > Perhaps the title of the post should be as changed with this message?=   >TH > I have sent 3 messages to HP thus far, all polite, all composed in mu= ch lessH > of a rush than I tend to do when posting to the ng - zero acknowlegem= entr@ > that my messages were read, much less having replies thus far. >  > YMMV  H One might surmise that the Big Dogs are out on road chatting up custome= rs,yH or doing integration-related things. Most of the VMS team is occupied w= itheH the Ambassador's meeting in Nashua, Gorham's about to head to the UK fo= r a:H customer briefing at a Reading brewery (beats some of the venues at whi= chH I've spoken!), and Blackmore's in Europe meeting with customers this we= ek.=   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 00:53:11 GMTP# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>aD Subject: Re: HP doesn't act positively towards VMS any more than CPQG Message-ID: <XfBH8.81814$ah_.4112@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>i    That's strictly for ng postings.  A If you want to chat off-line via email or otherwise, let me know.-    7 "WILLIAM WEBB" <WWEBB1@email.usps.gov> wrote in messagen' news:0033000065425806000002L062*@MHS...l  B Perhaps it's that "nonymous.com" reply-to address you're using, a. :^)-   WWWebb   -----Original Message-----/ From: Info-VAX-Request@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNET@" Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 2:16 PMB To: Webb, William W Raleigh, NC; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com at INTERNETD Subject: RE: HP doesn't act positively towards VMS any more than CPQ    . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageA news:e7AG8.78831$t8_.5150@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...2G > Perhaps the title of the post should be as changed with this message?d >/I > I have sent 3 messages to HP thus far, all polite, all composed in muchc lessJ > of a rush than I tend to do when posting to the ng - zero acknowlegement@ > that my messages were read, much less having replies thus far. >b > YMMV  J One might surmise that the Big Dogs are out on road chatting up customers,J or doing integration-related things. Most of the VMS team is occupied withJ the Ambassador's meeting in Nashua, Gorham's about to head to the UK for aI customer briefing at a Reading brewery (beats some of the venues at which K I've spoken!), and Blackmore's in Europe meeting with customers this week.=o   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:10:19 GMT>1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> K Subject: Re: HP doesn't act positively towards VMS any more than CPQ or DECn5 Message-ID: <fmvH8.15$4g7.29982@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>a  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageA news:e7AG8.78831$t8_.5150@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...sG > Perhaps the title of the post should be as changed with this message?  >eI > I have sent 3 messages to HP thus far, all polite, all composed in muchc lessJ > of a rush than I tend to do when posting to the ng - zero acknowlegement@ > that my messages were read, much less having replies thus far. >- > YMMV  J One might surmise that the Big Dogs are out on road chatting up customers,J or doing integration-related things. Most of the VMS team is occupied withJ the Ambassador's meeting in Nashua, Gorham's about to head to the UK for aI customer briefing at a Reading brewery (beats some of the venues at whichuJ I've spoken!), and Blackmore's in Europe meeting with customers this week.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 00:53:03 GMTo# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>s7 Subject: Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DECoG Message-ID: <PfBH8.81810$ah_.2042@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>a  3 "jlsue" <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> wrote in messagen2 news:s6kseu00fdo90593ihbj8d4b2sepqq6f59@4ax.com... > C > You can't possibly have enough info to state "... and now HP...".tF > HP has many, many things to deal with to complete the merger.  ThereF > hasn't been enough time to take any actions on anything yet that can! > indicate any future directions.e >a  J That's more than a bit disingenuous to say something like that. Don't tellL me that the 1000 or so 'merger-team' people from both HP and Compaq who wereF locked up for 8 months figuring out stuff regarding all aspects of theJ merger took a 10-minute washroom/coffee and doughnut break when it came toL discussing the future of VMS, and then moved on to the next 'action item' on( their lists, as though VMS didn't exist?  L HP/Compaq had 8 months pre-merger to deal with much of this, especially whenH it came to all their platforms and operating systems. Carly was going toJ "hit the ground running", as I recollect...looks like she smacked into theH proverbial brick wall on the VMS issue. You seem to forget the number ofL statements during the period from September until today where 'VMS' has beenI publically uttered by any senior exec of HP or Comapq in a way that wouldoJ lead anyone to believe that VMS will be promoted in a way that will ensureF its' growth, and hence its long term survival as anything other than a> 'marginal' product. I'll give you a hint - the number is zero.  J If you want to get right down to the crux of the issue, let's do so. Alpha@ and VMS customers have been lied to for years by DEC and CPQ. WeJ collectively have billions invested in applications and business processesL that depend on VMS. And from the evidence so far, we have precious little toJ see that could make us collectively trust that HP won't lie to us as well.  K HP better realize quickly that satisying the customer you have today is 10xtL cheaper than acquiring a new customer. And satisfying VMS customers does notK entail pushing them to unix/linux/windows, or making them feel that this istA inevitable. If we collectively feel that we've been (old germanicp> expression)'ed over, then we will take our business elsewhere.   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 00:53:08 GMTt# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>n7 Subject: Re: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ or DECtH Message-ID: <UfBH8.81812$ah_.30662@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  3 "jlsue" <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> wrote in message 2 news:s6kseu00fdo90593ihbj8d4b2sepqq6f59@4ax.com... > F > HP has many, many things to deal with to complete the merger.  ThereF > hasn't been enough time to take any actions on anything yet that can! > indicate any future directions.4    G What were the 1000 or so people from both CPQ and HP who were locked up9I doing merger  and product integration strategy for 8 months doing when itIE came time to discuss VMS? Did they take a 10-minute washroom/coffee &eE doughnut break, and then conveniently forget to discuss VMS when they 	 returned?p  F Carly said that she wanted to "hit the ground running". Looks like she/ slammed into a brick wall when it comes to VMS.e      @ > And it's not exactly fair to discredit those who are trying toF > communicate some visible changes by using the term "apologists".  WeB > are seeing different attitudes internally and disseminating thatF > information.  If we observe some positive activity, we want to shareE > it with the folks in cov because we also share a common tie to VMS. G > It's up to the individuals reading these messages if/how they want toaG > act on this information.  None of us can blame them for a "we'll just G > have to wait and see" attitude.  And we also share their frustrations ! > of the last few years activity.l  I Of all the statements between the merger announcement and today, how manyaK senior CPQ and HP exec's have made public committments to the growth of theyK VMS marketplace?  So far, from where I sit, the score on that is zero-zero.sI We VMS customers collectively have billions invested in apps and business C processes that depend on VMS. Without a growing VMS community, most:K customers will eventually pack in the towel and give up on VMS, not becausehI it isn't good, but because VMS isn't maketed enough to have ANY mindshare ; with the people who write the checks at the customer sites..  G HP better realize very quickly that VMS customers have been lied to foreK years by DEC and CPQ about the longevity and fate of Alpha and VMS. So far,.E I have seen precious little to give me confidence that HP will be any K better. I am not an 'insider' (meaning I get to rub shoulders with other HPcK managers around the water-cooler and swap info)...I am but a lowly customer I whose good money helps pay for the things that happen at HP. The minute IlK get the overwhelming sense that my relatively small investment in VMS is in-4 mortal jeapordy, I'm leaving for another non-HP o/s.  I It is 10x more costly to acquire a new customer than to keep an exisitingoE one happy. Keeping VMS customers happy does not entail saying or even0I hinting that you'd be better off on unix/linux/windows, and that HP would8J prefer that we move that direction (which is the cast that most statements from HP have been given).r  I Why is it so hard for Carly to stand on her soapbox in a decidedly public:H place and say, "VMS is a key product for HP and we will do everything inG HP's formidable power to grow the VMS market - the Board is 100% behind K this. VMS is a superb choice as an operating system for most businesses and0F governments." ?? Get her to do that and I'd wager that 99.9999% of theK griping disappears. Well, maybe I can see her saying the first sentence fareF more easily than the second. The second sentence would have to be more carefully crafted.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:37:35 GMT4( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>M Subject: Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC)n+ Message-ID: <3CEE96D7.43D3E67E@pacbell.net>o   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:n > 7 > "Don Sykes" <annonymous@pacbell.net> wrote in messagen' > news:3CEE723B.4BDD655F@pacbell.net...s > <snip> > >c# > > 1. Carly CEO never heard of VMStL > > 2. Capellas Pres heard of VMS, but still thinks it's some flavor of UnixE > > 3. Blackmore SVP just heard he's in charge of somthing called VMSo > > 4. Stallard SVP ???d3 > > 5. Marcello VP knows VMS enough to be dangerous  > H > I would not discount Mr. Blackmore's knowledge of VMS to this great anL > extent. The guy seemed pretty knowledgeable when I spoke with him about it > last December.  N OK. So when is he going to make a detailed statement about the future of VMS ?M It would say a lot about him and HP's commitment if he were to post somethingh directly to this forum too.S -- p   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San Franciscod   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:03:04 -0400r- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> M Subject: Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC)-, Message-ID: <3CEEAA86.92481FD7@videotron.ca>   "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:tH > I would not discount Mr. Blackmore's knowledge of VMS to this great anL > extent. The guy seemed pretty knowledgeable when I spoke with him about it > last December.    N Has he even shown/proven with actions that he is pro VMS, or is he the type to> say nice things to customers, but then turn around and supportI Winkler/Capellas/Carly in their efforts to make Wintel conquer enterprise  market ?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:17:20 -0400 2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)M Subject: Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC) K Message-ID: <rdeininger-2405021917200001@11cust83.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>   5 In article <3CEE96D7.43D3E67E@pacbell.net>, Don Sykess <annonymous@pacbell.net> wrote:t   >"Terry C. Shannon" wrote: >> iI >> I would not discount Mr. Blackmore's knowledge of VMS to this great anlM >> extent. The guy seemed pretty knowledgeable when I spoke with him about itn >> last December.t >dO >OK. So when is he going to make a detailed statement about the future of VMS ?-N >It would say a lot about him and HP's commitment if he were to post something >directly to this forum too.  * So far, detailed statements have included:  I The fact the the VMS and alpha roadmaps will continue under HP unchanged..  / The fact the the IPF port of VMS will continue.d  ; A support committment for VMS on alpha until at least 2011.y    D If you have other, specific questions, you should email the HP folksG seeking answers.  Or contact your friendly neighborhood VMS Ambassador.n  G If you want extremely detailed information, such as which engineer will H write which section of code which week, I guess you'd need to sneak into. ZKO and plant  hidden cameras and microphones.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:16:53 -0700l& From: Greg Cagle <gregc@gregcagle.com>M Subject: Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC)-, Message-ID: <3CEEC9E5.6080501@gregcagle.com>   Don Sykes wrote: > JF Mezei wrote:S >  >>Greg Cagle wrote:: >>. >>>Correct - Scott reports to Peter Blackmore. >> >>or so we have: >> >>Gorham
 >>Marcello
 >>Stallard >>Blackmore0 >>+ >>but what is between Blackmore and Carly ?  >> >>Is Capellas in between ? >  > O > Maybe someone at HP can supply an org chart. I thought Capellas was Presidentr > with Carly as CEO. > ! > 1. Carly	CEO	never heard of VMSmJ > 2. Capellas	Pres	heard of VMS, but still thinks it's some flavor of UnixC > 3. Blackmore	SVP	just heard he's in charge of somthing called VMSh > 4. Stallard	SVP	???e1 > 5. Marcello	VP	knows VMS enough to be dangerousi   This is correct.   -- A
 Greg Cagle gregc at gregcagle dot com   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 10:12:01 +1000t. From: Burnie M <burniem.NOSPAM@ozemail.com.au>M Subject: Re: HP is listening (was: HP doesn't listen any more than CPQ orDEC)s8 Message-ID: <0llteu88q198tuvcitttjs4fdag8ej6ipr@4ax.com>  E On Fri, 24 May 2002 19:17:20 -0400, rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robertr Deininger) wrote:n  + >So far, detailed statements have included:t >dJ >The fact the the VMS and alpha roadmaps will continue under HP unchanged. >M0 >The fact the the IPF port of VMS will continue. >t< >A support committment for VMS on alpha until at least 2011. >  >WE >If you have other, specific questions, you should email the HP folks-H >seeking answers.  Or contact your friendly neighborhood VMS Ambassador. >"H >If you want extremely detailed information, such as which engineer willI >write which section of code which week, I guess you'd need to sneak into / >ZKO and plant  hidden cameras and microphones.n    % The issue is (yet again) credibility.T  We NEED to hear it from the top.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:48:55 GMT ( From: customer.support@broadband.att.com< Subject: Important information regarding your usenet service5 Message-ID: <HOwH8.9504$uh4.226@typhoon.mw.ipsvc.net>a  J On June 6th, 2002 AT&T Broadband will restructure the configuration of the3 servers, which provide access to Usenet newsgroups.   L As a result, you will need to update your newsgroup settings. If you fail toO update your settings will be unable to download new messages, post new messagese3 or post replies to existing messages to newsgroups.o     For Outlook Express Users: h  A First, Remove (Rename) Existing Account (you must do this first):o   1.	Open Outlook Express.F 2.	If your folder list is not automatically displayed, select the VIEW<         menu, then click LAYOUT. Click FOLDER LIST, then OK.G 3.	Click the netnews.attbi.com folder to create a list of newsgroups toa&         which you currently subscribe.; 4.	Select the TOOLS menu, then ACCOUNTS, then the NEWS tab.-C 5.	Select netnews.attbi.com and click REMOVE. Click YES to confirm.r    Then, Create a new news account:   1.	Open Outlook Express.> 2.	Select the TOOLS menu, then ACCOUNTS. Click ADD, then NEWS.@ 3.	Type your name as you would like it to appear and click NEXT.H 4.	Type your e-mail address in the format username@attbi.com, then click
         NEXT.mD 5.	Type netnews.attbi.com in the news server field, click NEXT, then         FINISH.e 6.	Click CLOSE.eH 7.	A prompt to download your list of newsgroups will be displayed. Click         YES.G 8.	Choose the newsgroups to which you would like to subscribe and clicka         SUBSCRIBE.  _  L Additional information on subscribing to newsgroups is available on the AT&T+ Broadband Online Customer Support Center atTO https://help.broadband.att.com/faq.jsp?content_id=1731&category_id=68#configuree   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 14:01:14 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: mkisofs for Vax= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0205241301.5dafbaca@posting.google.com>r  s SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) wrote in message news:<343f30ae.0205230541.7555bf31@posting.google.com>...ab > David Michaels <michaedi@email.uc.edu> wrote in message news:<3CEC01F0.FE3FF197@email.uc.edu>... > > Tom Linden wrote:o > > >  > > > Look in the FAQs > > J > > I did look in the Faqs, but I still don't see a binary copy of mkisofs > > for VAX/VMS.   > >  > > Am I missing the link ?  > F > I don't think mkisofs is available for VMS v6.2. I investigated this2 > very topic a while ago and that's what I recall. >   > Disclaimer: JMHO (or OCICBWYN)A                        ^^^^^^^^  oops, make that OCICBWYK. Sorry.y     > Alan E. Feldmane$ > afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 20:58:16 +01000U From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com>eM Subject: Re: Most unusual resident in a system ?, was: Re: No new Alpha salest0 Message-ID: <acm60p$nop$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>   Rob Young wrote:   > In article <aclpm1$kim$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes: >  >> >>Rob Young wrote: >> >> >>>In article <aclium$in9$1@new-usenet.uk.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy <andrew_nospam.harrison_remove_this@sun#.com> writes:a >>>  >>>  >>>e< >>>>>>You need to do much better than the tired TPC-C mantra+ >>>>>>that you and Kerry keep trotting out.n >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>	Works though.h >>>>>e >>>>>w> >>>>Only for you and Kerry, does anyone else out there beleive	 >>>>you ?s >>>> >>>> >>>>2 >>>	Of course, and plenty of evidence of that too. >>>a; >>>	And as usual Andrew , your timing is impeccable.  Also,hD >>>	seems whenever we start talking about eBay they take an outtage, >>>	but I digress. >>>a >>0 >>And do you know what caused the eBay outage ?? >>  $ Repeats of Robs FUD attempts snipped       >> >>Do you work for IBM ?? >> >> > 8 > 	Why should that matter in the grand scheme of things? >   2 Well because you seem to spend more time promoting IBM than Compaq.  8 Let me let you in on a secret. Sun is the largest server= vendor in the space that OpenVMS ocupies, and to get to Sun'st7 possition in the market you have to get past IBM first._  ; So promoting IBM which you seem very keen on isn't going toi= enhance HP's chances which your livelyhood apparently depends  on.e  @ Additionally if you think that Sun sees OpenVMS as easy pickings> which it is then do you think IOBM is stupid enough not to see? the sales opportunity available to them in turning over OpenVMSr@ sites. They do and they have an OpenVMS -> AIX migration program just like Sun.           > : >>I am at a loss to understand why you think this enhances >>your position. >> > B > 	It does a marvelous job.  Because Andrew being Andrew, he oftenB > 	forgets the question posed and/or conveniently trims it and notC > 	so subtlely asks more tangential questions.  You had asked this:t >     ? No the question posed was the relative performance of SPARC and = Alpha servers, anyone who has noticed you trying to introduceuA eBay, IBM's performance, your long and apparently futile attempts @ to counter my alledged FUD and Suns alledged financial possitionC into the argument will know that your point is as per usual riddled0 with BS and double standards..      ; > "I am at a loss to understand why you think this enhancesP > your position."n > @ > 	Because it points out the fact that tpmC is most important to. > 	folks other than Kerry and myself.  Get it? >     = Yup but who, oh IBM and Compaqs marketing departments, let men9 know when these count as prospective customers and I will  reward you with 5 gold stars.t  < Get an injection of reality, Sun is the market leader in the= space that the F15000 occupies and was the market leader wheno6 the E10000 occupied that spot. Sun gave up on TPC-C as; a usefull benchmark a long time ago and that hasn't stoppedt5 Sun selling more F15000's since its introduction thand4 Compaq has sold GS320's and the F15000 has only been% available since the end of last year.t  3 So sure one or two RFP's mandate TPC-C results manyl5 more require SAP or PeopleSoft or Oracle apps resultst2 because in reality no one runs TPC-C but people do run SAP etc.     > 4 > 	That is because you have fallen and can't get up. >     : Since you have no actual data to back this claim up its as hollow as normal.e     > L >>>IBM's Unix server has edged ahead of Hewlett-Packard's in the single most6 >>>scrutinized performance test for high-end servers.  >>>iD >>>	"single most scrutinized performance test for high-end servers." >>>v@ >>>	Except of course if you are selling Sun kit and some of yourB >>>	customers inquire.  Brings up an interesting question, what if@ >>>	the RFP requires Oracle tpmC numbers?  How do you propose an	 >>>	E15K?s >>>n >>>i >>A >>Sure, we tell the customer that TPC-C is a very poor method forc/ >>determining relative performance of servers. u >> > B > 	You tell them and of course gullible customers believe it, not. >     ; So tell me what is the value of TPC-C as a benchark and whyh: should customers place any faith in its use as a predictor of system performance ??  < Have a go at presenting a well argued justification for your: claim, no BS no marketing slides just how usefull TPC-C is# as a prdictior of apps performance.    Regardse Andrew Harrisone   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 18:53:10 -0700$ From: svieth@wi.rr.com (Scott Vieth) Subject: Re: OpenVMS SAN= Message-ID: <5a85bce2.0205241753.2aa12450@posting.google.com>8  g "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> wrote in message news:<3cee7c62$1@news.si.com>... G > >We've has Solaris and HP-UX concurrently sharing the same SAN as VMSm	 > >boxes,t > I > What kind of equipment on the VMS side is needed for this?  Is an Alphan2 > required, or do the controllers exist for VAXes?   Brian:  D The fibre channel Host Bus Adapters are PCI only.  So you can attach( any VAXen that have empty PCI slots. ;^)  F Seriously, all you need on the VMS side is one PCI card that goes intoA your Alpha system.  Very similar to adding another ethernet card.    -Scott   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 20:06:55 +0200 . From: "Jesper Naur" <jesper.naur@post.tele.dk>. Subject: Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C= Message-ID: <3cee81c5$0$18628$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk>a  9 Edward Brocklesby <ejb@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote in message 6 news:B6sH8.1513$XS1.56116@news8-gui.server.ntli.net... > Hello. >n: > I am trying to convert a program from using BSD sockets,9 > to VMS ASTs.  However, I'm having a program registeringv# > the AST callback for the channel.o >S  L I now see what the problem is: IO$_SETMODE|IO$M_READATTN should only be usedL in the somewhat specialized application, where the receiver of data does notL wish to actually start a read (IO$_READVBLK) until it is known, that data isA present (quote from documentation: "The IO$_SETMODE|IO$M_READATTNr? function/modifier combination requests that an Attention AST be J      delivered to the requesting process when a data packet is received onL the socket and there is no waiting read request. "). It is only intended for: already established connections, and you might as well useI sys$qio(...IO$_READVBLK...ast_routine...) when you have come that far. Ite" cannot be used as server accept().  L The explanation of your observed behaviour is: The IO$_SETMODE|IO$M_READATTNI operation completes immediately, and therefore the AST routine is called.tI The AST routine to be registered for activation, when new data appears on I the socket, should be specified as the P1 parameter (this paragraph is ano9 explanation, not a recommendation of what you should do).h  G You should use sys$qio(...IO$_ACCESS|IO$M_ACCEPT...ast_routine...) whenuH awaiting an incoming connection, in this case, the ast_routine is called$ when the connection request appears.  I Also, you should perhaps have a look at the example programs available inh8 TCPIP$EXAMPLES, in particular TCPIP$TCP_SERVER_QIO.C and TCPIP$TCP_CLIENT_QIO.C       Best regards     Jesper Naur    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:52:05 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> . Subject: Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C, Message-ID: <3CEEA7F4.C3451CD8@videotron.ca>   Edward Brocklesby wrote:= > The problem is that it that the AST handler is being calledaA > immediately when sys$qio() is called, even when there shouldn'tp% > be any data on the socket; like so:a  L 1- check the status of the $QIO call itself to make sure that the queuing of the IO was succesfull.  N 2- When your AST routine is called, check the contents of the IOSB, status and4 count especially to see the result of the actual IO.  L 3- Once your channel/socket is all setup and ready to exchange data, have toO tried (for debugging purposes) a $QIOW to see if that one would wait for data ?n  L I haven't checked the doc, but perhaps you have set some flag somewhere whenQ an IO completes immediatly if there is no data. (not sure if such a flag exists)..   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:00:16 -0400Q- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>l. Subject: Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C, Message-ID: <3CEEA9DE.57EC33DA@videotron.ca>   Edward Brocklesby wrote:L > Under what conditions, is the AST handler called?  According to the CompaqE > TCP/IP Services manual, IO$M_READATTN handler should only be calledx$ > when data is ready on the socket.   L Ahhh, an attention handler is not a read completion handler. When you AST isK called, it should then issue another $QIO to actially read the data, and itsL could theoretically use $QIOW since you've just been told there is something for you to pickup.  E What you really want is to issue a IO$M_READVBLK function code with aaF completion AST. You need to specify in your $QIO the maximum number ofH characters.  I can't remember if terminator masks are allowed on the TCPL routines, but I do know that IO$M_TIMEOUT isn't unfortunatly supported which is a real shame.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 22:24:36 +0100i. From: Edward Brocklesby <ejb@sdf.lonestar.org>. Subject: Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C@ Message-ID: <AdyH8.4493$Qs4.149809@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net>   Jesper Naur wrote:I > You should use sys$qio(...IO$_ACCESS|IO$M_ACCEPT...ast_routine...) when J > awaiting an incoming connection, in this case, the ast_routine is called& > when the connection request appears. > K > Also, you should perhaps have a look at the example programs available ing: > TCPIP$EXAMPLES, in particular TCPIP$TCP_SERVER_QIO.C and > TCPIP$TCP_CLIENT_QIO.C  K Right; I see now where I was confused (I was assuming that, as under Unix, -L you check for a new connection by polling a socket for reading; but this is < not true under VMS :).  However, I now have another problem.   Using the following code:o  5         memset(&cli_itemlst, 0, sizeof(cli_itemlst));.2         cli_itemlst.length  = sizeof(F->cli_addr);+         cli_itemlst.address = &F->cli_addr;@-         cli_itemlst.retlen = &F->cli_addrlen;t  -         cli_itemlst.type = TCPIP$C_SOCK_NAME;  [...]g$     if (type & COMM_SELECT_ACCEPT) {"         F->read_handler = handler;#         F->read_data = client_data;lJ         r = sys$qio(EFN$C_ENF, decc$get_sdc(fd), IO$_ACCESS | IO$M_ACCEPT,@                         &F->iosb, ast_handler_accept, fd, 0, 0,  &cli_itemlst, /                         &F->new_channel, 0, 0);o     }o [...]e     if ($VMS_STATUS_SUCCESS(r))          r = F->iosb.status;p        if (!$VMS_STATUS_SUCCESS(r))     {dJ         ilog(L_CRIT, "sys$qio (type %d) on fd '%d' (%s): (%x) %s.", type,  fd, F?!                 vms_strerror(r));      }y  L As far as I can see, the sys$qio(IO$_ACCES | IO$M_ACCEPT) is correct as far G as the documentation states.  However, I am having the following error:     F [2002/5/24 23.15] sys$qio (type 4) on fd '10' (Listener socket): (14) ( %SYSTEM-F-BADPARAM, bad parameter value.  K Which I assume means that I have passed an invalid p1..p6 value to sys$qio.-$ However, I cannot see where this is.                  -larne  I (Sorry if I'm missing something completely obvious here; never used $qio o4 before and it's a bit different from Unix sockets..)   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 01:09:24 +0200 . From: "Jesper Naur" <jesper.naur@post.tele.dk>. Subject: Re: Problems with ASTs/sys$qio() in C= Message-ID: <3ceec7f4$0$70369$edfadb0f@dspool01.news.tele.dk>h  9 Edward Brocklesby <ejb@sdf.lonestar.org> wrote in messaget: news:AdyH8.4493$Qs4.149809@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...  L >         r = sys$qio(EFN$C_ENF, decc$get_sdc(fd), IO$_ACCESS | IO$M_ACCEPT,A >                         &F->iosb, ast_handler_accept, fd, 0, 0,k > &cli_itemlst,r1 >                         &F->new_channel, 0, 0);r >     }t > [...]e! >     if ($VMS_STATUS_SUCCESS(r)). >         r = F->iosb.status;o > " >     if (!$VMS_STATUS_SUCCESS(r)) >     {CK >         ilog(L_CRIT, "sys$qio (type %d) on fd '%d' (%s): (%x) %s.", type,a > fd, F?# >                 vms_strerror(r));< >     }O >MI > As far as I can see, the sys$qio(IO$_ACCES | IO$M_ACCEPT) is correct asm farhI > as the documentation states.  However, I am having the following error:  >F > G > [2002/5/24 23.15] sys$qio (type 4) on fd '10' (Listener socket): (14))* > %SYSTEM-F-BADPARAM, bad parameter value. >nD > Which I assume means that I have passed an invalid p1..p6 value to sys$qio.& > However, I cannot see where this is.  L Have you ensured, that F->new_channel has been sys$assign'ed to TCPIP$DEVICEL prior to calling sys$qio(IO$_ACCES | IO$M_ACCEPT). ACCESS|ACCEPT needs 2 VMSK I/O channels: The 'chan' argument (2nd $qio parameter) specifies the listensI socket, the P4 argument is the new channel, which will spring into actionnA when a new connection request appears. It must however already beeF sys$assign'ed to TCPIP$DEVICE before calling ACCESS|ACCEPT. It will ofG course only start working after a connection request has been received.   E (again, study the TCPIP$TCP_SERVER_QIO.C program, to see that this is K actually done there. I see, that you use decc$get_sdc(fd) for 'chan' in therG ACCESS|ACCEPT call, this may work (I'm not familiar with that), but youcG surely need a 'fresh' VMS I/O channel for P4 for each new ACCESS|ACCEPTt call).   >eJ > (Sorry if I'm missing something completely obvious here; never used $qio6 > before and it's a bit different from Unix sockets..)  E Small bit of education: VMS $qio has nothing in particular to do withsH sockets, it is the standard operating system call for interfacing to anyL kind of I/O driver. The difficulty lies not in the usage of $qio itself, butK rather in the peculiarities of the underlying drivers - of which the TCP/IPa# driver is not exactly the simplest.        Best regards     Jesper NaurF   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:57:00 +0100t From: a.greig@virgin.net2 Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)8 Message-ID: <v5ateukmos1npuu2ut4oheg7dal58227f3@4ax.com>  D On Fri, 24 May 2002 10:13:44 GMT, Ian Parker <parker@gol.com> wrote:  C >I too miss the power and flexibility of Algol 68.  There's still auI >compiler on the web somewhere.  Perhaps someday, someone will produce an $ >object-oriented version (dream on).  @ How about Simula? Although it was based on Algol-60 not 68 IIRC.  * >I particularly miss the looping statement- >        from h by i to j while k do ..... odIE >where the 'from', 'by', 'to' and  'while' phrases were optional withp >sensible defaults >iH >Now I use Python which is the closest I can get to an elegant language. >b >Regards >  >Ian   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 19:45:49 -0400, From: Carl Shapiro <cshapiro+spam@panix.com>2 Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture). Message-ID: <ouyk7pt155e.fsf@panix3.panix.com>  # Ian Parker <parker@gol.com> writes:-  + > I particularly miss the looping statementP. >         from h by i to j while k do ..... odF > where the 'from', 'by', 'to' and  'while' phrases were optional with > sensible defaultsI  E The LOOP facility in Common Lisp uses similar syntax to what you have0B described.  Expressed in Common Lisp, your example would look like this:d  , (loop for x from h to j by i while k do ...)  * Here's a brief summary of what you can do:  9 http://www.apl.jhu.edu/~hall/Lisp-Notes/Loop-Summary.html    ------------------------------   Date: 25 May 2002 00:04:17 GMT0 From: gah@ugcs.caltech.edu (glen herrmannsfeldt)2 Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture), Message-ID: <acmke1$jlc@gap.cco.caltech.edu>   a.greig@virgin.net writes:  E >On Fri, 24 May 2002 10:13:44 GMT, Ian Parker <parker@gol.com> wrote:B  D >>I too miss the power and flexibility of Algol 68.  There's still aJ >>compiler on the web somewhere.  Perhaps someday, someone will produce an% >>object-oriented version (dream on).a  A >How about Simula? Although it was based on Algol-60 not 68 IIRC.   + >>I particularly miss the looping statement . >>        from h by i to j while k do ..... odF >>where the 'from', 'by', 'to' and  'while' phrases were optional with >>sensible defaultse >>  > PL/I also has optional by and to.  I don't believe the from is< optional, but you can always put the original value back in.   DO I=I BY 1;  ; Though I have never coded one, WHILE and/or UNTIL are also e optionally allowed.o   DO I=I BY 1 WHILE(J>0);    -- glen    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:07:15 -0700h# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 2 Subject: RE: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEPIFAAA.tom@kednos.com>t  " You left out the TO it should readH DO I= 1 TO whatever BY some_amount UNTIL(some_test) WHILE(another_test);  G I once, as a joke, allowed WHILST as a synonym for WHILE just to humourt some brits.b   >-----Original Message----- 8 >From: glen herrmannsfeldt [mailto:gah@ugcs.caltech.edu]# >Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PMf >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com3 >Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)y >o >  >a.greig@virgin.net writes:m >fF >>On Fri, 24 May 2002 10:13:44 GMT, Ian Parker <parker@gol.com> wrote: >nE >>>I too miss the power and flexibility of Algol 68.  There's still aeK >>>compiler on the web somewhere.  Perhaps someday, someone will produce ane& >>>object-oriented version (dream on). > B >>How about Simula? Although it was based on Algol-60 not 68 IIRC. >P, >>>I particularly miss the looping statement/ >>>        from h by i to j while k do ..... odnG >>>where the 'from', 'by', 'to' and  'while' phrases were optional withp >>>sensible defaults >>>a > ? >PL/I also has optional by and to.  I don't believe the from ise= >optional, but you can always put the original value back in.k >u
 >DO I=I BY 1;  >>< >Though I have never coded one, WHILE and/or UNTIL are also  >optionally allowed. >I >DO I=I BY 1 WHILE(J>0); >u >-- glen >n >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.e; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).oA >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002t >  --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:38:10 -0700 # From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> 2 Subject: RE: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIOEPKFAAA.tom@kednos.com>h  G Actually what I last wrote wasn't totally accurate, the TO is optional.c( There is one other variant, for example,7 DO WHILE(ptr ^= NULL()) REPEAT(ptr = ptr->struct.next);h) whixh is useful for walking linked lists.,     >-----Original Message-----s) >From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.com]y# >Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:07 PMc >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com3 >Subject: RE: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)a >w >t# >You left out the TO it should readcI >DO I= 1 TO whatever BY some_amount UNTIL(some_test) WHILE(another_test);g >nH >I once, as a joke, allowed WHILST as a synonym for WHILE just to humour >some brits. >s >>-----Original Message-----9 >>From: glen herrmannsfeldt [mailto:gah@ugcs.caltech.edu]r$ >>Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com 4 >>Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) >> >> >>a.greig@virgin.net writes: >>G >>>On Fri, 24 May 2002 10:13:44 GMT, Ian Parker <parker@gol.com> wrote:  >>F >>>>I too miss the power and flexibility of Algol 68.  There's still aL >>>>compiler on the web somewhere.  Perhaps someday, someone will produce an' >>>>object-oriented version (dream on).t >>C >>>How about Simula? Although it was based on Algol-60 not 68 IIRC.e >>- >>>>I particularly miss the looping statemento0 >>>>        from h by i to j while k do ..... odH >>>>where the 'from', 'by', 'to' and  'while' phrases were optional with >>>>sensible defaultsp >>>> >>@ >>PL/I also has optional by and to.  I don't believe the from is> >>optional, but you can always put the original value back in. >> >>DO I=I BY 1; >>< >>Though I have never coded one, WHILE and/or UNTIL are also >>optionally allowed.t >> >>DO I=I BY 1 WHILE(J>0);  >>	 >>-- glen  >> >>---b( >>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B >>Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002 >> >---' >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. ; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).HA >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/20025 >0 >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.u; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).2A >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002. >n ---c& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:47:41 -0700h# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>a2 Subject: RE: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEPLFAAA.tom@kednos.com>.   >-----Original Message----- ) >From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.com]n# >Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:38 PMt >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com3 >Subject: RE: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)a >  >,H >Actually what I last wrote wasn't totally accurate, the TO is optional.J I should have added that if the TO isn't there the loop only gets executedK once, that is what I originally meant.  And in the example below I left out.  the start value, it should read,B DO ptr = head WHILE(ptr ^= NULL()) REPEAT(ptr = ptr->struct.next);  ) >There is one other variant, for example,k8 >DO WHILE(ptr ^= NULL()) REPEAT(ptr = ptr->struct.next);* >whixh is useful for walking linked lists. >S >  >>-----Original Message-----* >>From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.com]$ >>Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:07 PM >>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comd4 >>Subject: RE: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture) >> >>$ >>You left out the TO it should readJ >>DO I= 1 TO whatever BY some_amount UNTIL(some_test) WHILE(another_test); >>I >>I once, as a joke, allowed WHILST as a synonym for WHILE just to humouri
 >>some brits.  >> >>>-----Original Message-----o: >>>From: glen herrmannsfeldt [mailto:gah@ugcs.caltech.edu]% >>>Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:04 PMi >>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com5 >>>Subject: Re: S-Algol (Was Re: Future architecture)v >>>e >>>  >>>a.greig@virgin.net writes:v >>>cH >>>>On Fri, 24 May 2002 10:13:44 GMT, Ian Parker <parker@gol.com> wrote: >>>EG >>>>>I too miss the power and flexibility of Algol 68.  There's still a B >>>>>compiler on the web somewhere.  Perhaps someday, someone will >produce ano( >>>>>object-oriented version (dream on). >>>aD >>>>How about Simula? Although it was based on Algol-60 not 68 IIRC. >>>o. >>>>>I particularly miss the looping statement1 >>>>>        from h by i to j while k do ..... odgI >>>>>where the 'from', 'by', 'to' and  'while' phrases were optional withc >>>>>sensible defaults >>>>>l >>>oA >>>PL/I also has optional by and to.  I don't believe the from is ? >>>optional, but you can always put the original value back in.C >>>E >>>DO I=I BY 1;e >>>g= >>>Though I have never coded one, WHILE and/or UNTIL are alsoe >>>optionally allowed. >>>0 >>>DO I=I BY 1 WHILE(J>0); >>>m
 >>>-- glen >>>  >>>---) >>>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.e= >>>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). C >>>Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002a >>>m >>---l( >>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.< >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B >>Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002 >> >>---w( >>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B >>Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002 >> >---' >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.h; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002s >u >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.e; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).eA >Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/20022 >: --- & Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:31:04 +0100t4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>% Subject: Re: Show cluster not workingd8 Message-ID: <4i1teugm6gfl03ebgbfp70aamiltq4venn@4ax.com>  H On Fri, 24 May 2002 08:22:48 -0700, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote:  F >The show command is working, e.g. SHOW TIME, and the node seems to be? >working in all other respects, status returns 1,  it just that 2 >it doesn't return any info on cluster.  Very odd.  I The SHOW command can run a zillion different executables, or none at all. , (VERB will enlighten if you are interested.)  K Turn on image accounting and see what gets run and what the exit status is. L Right off the top of my head, I think it is named SHWCL-something.  (VMS box switched off at the moment.)  I I do recall a few funnies in 7.1 related to sysman/monitor stuff in mixeds version clusters.R     	John    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 22:13:58 GMT.' From: Steve Thompson <smt@vgersoft.com> % Subject: Re: Show cluster not working$G Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0205241811340.8476-100000@vger.vgersoft.com>h  & On Fri, 24 May 2002, Tom Linden wrote:  ; > on VAX 7.1.  But works on other nodes, alphas 6.2,7.1,7.3s: > Upon entering the command it returns with a new preompt. > Any ideas what to look for?C  C No idea, but I have seen this many times on 7.1-1H2. A SHOW CLUSTERID command completes immediately with no output, and the exit status isJ SS$_NORMAL. Nothing in the accounting log or OPCOM to show anything amiss.I Sometimes, an hour later, it works, without anything unusual happening ino the meantime (that I know of).   Stevef   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 12:42:26 -0700. From: SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) Subject: Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?= Message-ID: <343f30ae.0205241142.7a731bf7@posting.google.com>    "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote in message news:<craig.berry-B9EA98.17424323052002@news.directvinternet.com>...dO > Why, when I create a logical name where the logical name and the equivalence _P > name are the same (though they may differ by case), does show logical show me O > the translation 10 times?  Other mechanisms for translating the logical name . > only see it once.  M    F The mechanisms that show it only once are cases where you only ask for; that. When you use the logical name, you get full iterativeeE translation unless an equivalence name with the terminal attribute is_ encountered.    aN > OpenVMS Alpha 7.3, patch history below (though it looks like the same thing J > happens on 7.1).  It appears to be indifferent which table and mode are R > involved.  As far as I know the only damage this is doing is confusing the heck O > out of me, but if there's a loop condition that's not being checked properly  3 > then who knows what else might go wrong in there.n    B Well, the only reason I could see that you'd want to do this is toF mask a system, group, or job logical name. So if the system definitionC of FOO is something you want to override without defining FOO to be. something else, then doo  )     $ DEFINE FOO FOO/TRANSLATION=TERMINAL3     > $ show logical foo5 > %SHOW-S-NOTRAN, no translation for logical name FOOn > $ define foo foo > $ show logical/full foos. >    "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE). > 1  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE). > 2  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE). > 3  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE). > 4  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE). > 5  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE). > 6  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE). > 7  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE). > 8  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE). > 9  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE) > $ perl -e "print $ENV{FOO};" > FOO)$ > $ write sys$output f$trnlnm("FOO") > FOOs4 > $ write sys$output f$trnlnm("FOO",,,,,"MAX_INDEX") > 0t > $c    D MAX_INDEX has to do with search lists, not number of iterations. For example4   $ DEFINE A B,C9 %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of A has been supersededP" $ EV F$TRNLNM("A",,,,,"MAX_INDEX") 1  $ DEFINE A B,C,D,E,F9 %DCL-I-SUPERSEDE, previous value of A has been superseded," $ EV F$TRNLNM("A",,,,,"MAX_INDEX") 4u    , Bottom line: I see no reason to "fix" this.      Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmans" afeldman atski gfigroup dotski com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:58:53 -0500)C From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com>h Subject: Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?H Message-ID: <craig.berry-2BFFD3.15585324052002@news.directvinternet.com>  = In article <343f30ae.0205241142.7a731bf7@posting.google.com>,o0  SPAMSINK2001@YAHOO.COM (Alan E. Feldman) wrote:  I > "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com> wrote in sN > message news:<craig.berry-B9EA98.17424323052002@news.directvinternet.com>...E > > Why, when I create a logical name where the logical name and the h > > equivalence O > > name are the same (though they may differ by case), does show logical show   > > me SL > > the translation 10 times?  Other mechanisms for translating the logical 	 > > name   > > only see it once.    >  > H > The mechanisms that show it only once are cases where you only ask for= > that. When you use the logical name, you get full iterativefG > translation unless an equivalence name with the terminal attribute is  > encountered.  E Right, but what we're seeing here is that the mechanism intended for PH iterative translation becomes a mechanism for unintended recursion when D the logical name and equivalence name are the same.  In the case of E DEFINE FOO FOO, there is no possibility of further translation after u= the first iteration, yet it keeps going as though there were.2  G The check that stops iteration just happens to stop the recursion even mD though it was probably not intended to do so.  Whether we call this E good design or just good luck I don't know, but the thing that stops iE the loop and the reason we loop in the first place are two different a things.h    D > Well, the only reason I could see that you'd want to do this is toH > mask a system, group, or job logical name. So if the system definitionE > of FOO is something you want to override without defining FOO to bea > something else, then do  > + >     $ DEFINE FOO FOO/TRANSLATION=TERMINALu  H Yes, someone else already suggested that.  It is true that the terminal ? attribute, just like the limit of 10 iterations, will stop the oB recursion.  So we have two mechanisms designed to limit iterative F translation that also happen to limit recursion.  Neither is the same I thing as checking for recursion.  And don't assume the user encountering oG this problem would have any control over the definition of the logical.e   > > $ show logical foo7 > > %SHOW-S-NOTRAN, no translation for logical name FOO  > > $ define foo foo > > $ show logical/full foos0 > >    "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)0 > > 1  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)0 > > 2  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)0 > > 3  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)0 > > 4  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)0 > > 5  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)0 > > 6  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)0 > > 7  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)0 > > 8  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)0 > > 9  "FOO" [super] = "FOO" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)  > > $ perl -e "print $ENV{FOO};" > > FOO & > > $ write sys$output f$trnlnm("FOO") > > FOOe6 > > $ write sys$output f$trnlnm("FOO",,,,,"MAX_INDEX") > > 0s > > $w >  > F > MAX_INDEX has to do with search lists, not number of iterations. For	 > examples  F I know that; I was simply demonstrating that it was not a search list  logical.  . > Bottom line: I see no reason to "fix" this.   G I can see that fixing this might be tricky to get right, perhaps could bI hurt performance, and is very likely a low priority, but the more I look fI at it the more apparent it becomes that it's really broken.  If SHOW DEV IH D showed you all your disks twice would you see no reason to fix that?  B I think I will take up Matt's suggestion to write the authorities.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 22:25:26 GMTm' From: Jeffrey Chimene <jeff@nospam.net>: Subject: Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?* Message-ID: <3CEEBE80.12DF16E6@nospam.net>  O > "If SHOW DEV D showed you all your disks twice would you see no reason to fixe > that?_ >uQ Isn't there a prefix mechanism that tells RMS that the current equivalence stringsG is a device, and that no further translation is possible? IIRC it's "_"-O (underscore) or %d27. I don't have a VMS system available so I can't test this.y  M I'm still confused on why one would deliberately "assign foo foo", but that'st another question.    --  microsoft free by 2003   ------------------------------    Date: 24 May 2002 18:26:49 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)l Subject: Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?3 Message-ID: <Ct7cz5LZMP5P@eisner.encompasserve.org>s  T In article <3CEEBE80.12DF16E6@nospam.net>, Jeffrey Chimene <jeff@nospam.net> writes:P >> "If SHOW DEV D showed you all your disks twice would you see no reason to fix >> that? >>S > Isn't there a prefix mechanism that tells RMS that the current equivalence stringyI > is a device, and that no further translation is possible? IIRC it's "_"a > (underscore) or %d27.o  D /TRANSLATION=TERMINAL is the definitive method.  Leading underscoresB were a temporary method introduced in VMS V2, but I can't rememberC the difference in meaning between a double leading underscore (gonel2 and not lamented) and a single leading underscore.  E Escape is used for process permanent logical names, but not in devicev" specs to the best of my knowledge.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:13:46 -0500 C From: "Craig A. Berry" <craig.berry@nospam.SignalTreeSolutions.com>u Subject: Re: SHOW LOGICAL bug?H Message-ID: <craig.berry-830375.18134624052002@news.directvinternet.com>  * In article <3CEEBE80.12DF16E6@nospam.net>,)  Jeffrey Chimene <jeff@nospam.net> wrote:"  O > I'm still confused on why one would deliberately "assign foo foo", but that's  > another question.O  H The way it came up was I was testing a development release of Perl with H an alternate I/O layer (what that is is indeed a different story).  One F way of selecting these layers is defining PERLIO in the environment.  H Among the possible values are "stdio" and "perlio".  Obviously,  DEFINE H PERLIO "stdio" is not a problem, but DEFINE PERLIO "perlio" did present @ a problem.  In fact it exposed an infinite recursion bug in the H vms-specific bits of Perl (which I've just now fixed).  It also exposes H a recursion bug in SHOW LOGICAL, but fortunately the recursion there is 
 not infinite.H  F So, one doesn't always have a choice about what the logical names and H equivalence names will be.  I can imagine any number of scenarios where H the key/value pairs (perhaps automatically generated ones) could end up 3 being the same, or the same differing only by case.>   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 00:02:02 GMTM1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>o0 Subject: Re: SKC Morphs Again... We're Now SKHPC5 Message-ID: <_vAH8.70$YV2.58334@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>p  2 "Dean Woodward" <deanw@rdrop.com> wrote in message# news:3CD6F662.A0150427@rdrop.com...o > Terry C Shannon wrote: > >dI > > If there was a Big Change planned, would HPQ be inviting customers tonI > > Marvel prebriefings that include VMS information through the month of 
 > > November?  >iC > Mu.  Corporations love to play the secrecy game.  Did Compaq stopLH > announcing roadmaps for Alpha before the Alphacide, even though it was6 > apparently a done deal well before the announcement?  K Thanks to a lot of travel (including the Lyon symposium) and limited accessoB to Usenet, it's taken a while to respond to this. But the responseF reiterates what I said 18 days ago. What's more, there was a Marvel on display at said symposium.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:05:48 -0400t2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)8 Subject: Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ??K Message-ID: <rdeininger-2405021905480001@11cust83.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>1  B In article <aclcsu$q3r5h$1@ID-131939.news.dfncis.de>, "Matt Simis" <mattsimis@hotmail.com> wrote:  L >Pins, like (shock horror) a bog standard x86 CPU. I was kinda hoping that a1 >XP1000 (or something else cheaper than GS) couldF >be altered to use the CPU.u  F As it happens, I was looking in a DS20 today, and noticed that the CPU still had pins in that system.  H The CPU is on a daughtercard with a LOT of other components, and I doubt they were ever sold "bare".m  ? As for your particular CPU, I dunno just what it was meant for.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:09:05 -0400-2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)8 Subject: Re: Slot B Cpu Module and other 21264a Parts ??K Message-ID: <rdeininger-2405021909050001@11cust83.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>h  C In article <NatH8.3419$d51.1168195@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>, "Terry C.h( Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote:  M >"Dirk Munk" <munk@home.nl> wrote in message news:3CEE25FD.8010202@home.nl...eH >> These CPUs were uses in GS series, if I'm not mistaken in the GS 80 / >> 160 / 320 series.I >> I remember because the performance of the 733 MHz processors was lower K >> then the performance of the 667 MHz CPUs in the ES series. The reason islG >> that the 733 MHz cpus had 4 MB cache, and the 667 MHz cpus had 8 MB.d >[I >This is correct. It is one of several reasons that the performance of anX/ >ES-Series quadboard blew away a GS-Series QBB.u  K Yup.  And the current 1 GHz ES45 systems are a nice step up from the ES40s.w  I The ES systems have great performance, but if you need massive quantitiessG of I/O adapters, you still need Wildfire (or wait for Marvel).  And thei: ES45 only takes 32GB of memory, which isn't always enough.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:07:26 -04004+ From: John Johnstone <jj_usenet2@yahoo.com>t$ Subject: Re: smtp, firewalls and NAT) Message-ID: <3CEE653E.4DFF652D@yahoo.com>r   Jan-Erik Sderholm wrote:M >  > Hi.15 > For anyone knowing how smtp works through firewalls>* > using NAT (network address translation). > / > I'v a setup that I'm investigating right now.m >  > Scenario : > 9 > system-X (X)  <--->  filewall (FW)  <--->  system-Y (Y)n > . > X is an unknown platform, but can "do" smtp./ > Y is an DS20e with VMS 7.2-1 and UCX V5.0A-1.I > / > X and Y should send smtp mails to each other.  > 8 > X is on the "inside" and Y on the "outside" of the FW.8 > The FW NAT's the IP addresses between the two systems. > A > Now, sending mails Y -> X goes just fine. Y uses the "external" C > address (NAT'ed) of X. These mails goes from the "outside" to the   > "inside", as seen from the FW. > & > The problem is to send mails X -> Y. > D > Actualy the smtp server is called on Y, but in the smtp logs on Y,E > the address of the "client" is not the NAT'ed address of X, but thea3 > FW's "common" address. Or as the FW manager sad :v > @ > "it's simply using the outbound many-to-one NAT instead of theD > static NAT. In other words, it's acting just like a user that goes? > to the outside thru a firewall. It uses port assignment to dopF > many-to-one NAT using the outside interface IP address as the NAT IP > address."0 > H > Well, hope you get the picture. B.t.w, neither side of this FW belongsG > to the "internet", it's all internal to a specific site, but with oneb > "isolated" subnet. > G > Now, I'm *can* VMS and UCX, but FW's are kind of a black hole for me.  > J > In the smtp server log on Y, I get this (an extract of the complete log) >  > [a lot of startup mesages...] - > SMTP_RECV_MAIL: remote host not in hosts DBeI > SMTP_RECV_MAIL: remote host IP address: <the "common" ip address of the  > FW> 4 > SMTP_RECV_MAIL: remote host name: unknown.hostname/ > recv_serv: local host = <the local host name>cH > recv_serv: remote host = unknown.hostname            <<<=== don't know > where this commes from !  F When the SMTP receiver does the IP-to-name lookup and it comes back asG non-existent, he just uses "unknown.hostname" as the hostname.  This is>C mainly just for showing the hostname in the Received: header.  WitheG TCP/IP 5.0A, there should be no negative consequence of this.  StartingLH with TCP/IP 5.1, the Reject-Unbacktranslatable-IP option would determine the result.   H > send buf=220 <the local host name> V5.0A-1, OpenVMS V7.2-1 Alpha ready) > at Mon, 20 May 2002 12:02:53 +0000 \d\at > recv_serv: repl_buf = heloG > send buf=250 <the local host name> Hello unknown.hostname, pleased tol > meet you\d\a > recv_serv: repl_buf = quitA > send buf=221 <the local host name> Service closing transmission 
 > channel\d\a  > I > The only error/warning I can find is the one saying "remote host not in  > hosts DB". > F > To me it seams as the client (X) send a "helo" and then just "quit".E > Maybe the messages sent "in" from Y->X ("send buf" in the log) justa > don't2 > reach the X system !?   C At first, I was thinking that your suggestion might be correct that D messages that are sent from the VMS system are not reaching the SMTPG sender.  It now seems that if system X sent an SMTP HELO command to theBC VMS system, it would only do so if it successfully received the 220m# startup banner from the VMS system.   C It looks to me like the problem is due to system X deciding that itsF wants to abort the SMTP exchange after receiving the 250 response fromE the HELO command.  It is system X that is sending the QUIT command torC terminate the connection so I think the answer might be revealed byi) looking at things from the system X side.e   > : > Well, that's it. I'm stuck. Any ideas are very welcome ! >  > Jan-Erik Sderholm.4 >  > PS. @ > There was another note by the FW manager. I'm not sure if it's > rellevant but here it goes : > ? > "Also I did make a modification in the firewall just in case.iB > The rule set was using filtered-smtp instead of standard smtp...? > same port number but I changed it to smtp just to see if that, > makes a difference.".n > 9 > I don't know the difference between "filtered-smtp" ande8 > "standard smtp", so I can't tell if this is important. > DS.   0 I don't know what the difference here is either.  E You could use TCPTRACE on the VMS system to see how long it takes forsH the system X to send the QUIT.  If there's a delay, you could see if you* can find out why the delay is happening.    B DNS has been mentioned in other replies as being a factor.  DNS isH entirely optional with SMTP.  Although it's quite common to have and useH MX records, mail exchanges do work without them.  MX records are used ifG they exist.  If not, there only needs to be some means to ensure that amD sending system can connect to port 25 on a receiving system.  A hostG name that resolves to an IP address does that.  An IP address alone canaE be used but not all SMTP receivers accept that.  TCP/IP 5.0A actually 0 can accept mail that's sent to username@n.n.n.n.  E You mentioned that "sending mails Y -> X goes just fine".  That seemsnH unusual since from what was shown in the SMTP receiver log file, the VMSG system can't do an IP address to hostname lookup of X's IP address.  IfoF there is a hostname entry for X in the VMS system's localhost file, an0 IP address lookup of X's address should succeed.  D Does a ping or traceroute using hostnames work?  If they work, is itF possible that system X has two different IP addresses, one for inbound6 connections and a second one for outbound connections?   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:34:02 -0400 % From: "Chuck Viau" <viau@process.com>L9 Subject: Re: TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-timeO+ Message-ID: <acmbms$llf$1@news.process.com>"  K If you are using the Multinet stack on OpenVMS, the MultiNet socket library)B has 'working'  functions which can perform the conversion for you.  -     vms_time_to_localtime(VMS_TIME, TIMEVAL);        anda  -     localtime_to_vms_time(TIMEVAL, VMS_TIME);n   -Cviau Process Software  5 "R.S.H. Kwee" <rshkwee@nospam.hr.nl> wrote in messagep+ news:acfpok$346$1@eubuf21.eu.concert.net... A > We want to use the standard C-time routines in order to run the  applicatione > on VMS and on NT., >,A > But now we have the problem that we receive times in VMS format  (quad-word,rJ > 100 nsec) and we must convert it to C-time (offset 1-jan-1970, in sec.).H > The C-timestructure 'timeb' stores the GM-time and a offset and in the4 > calculating is also  the dayligth saving involved.K > When we convert the C-time to VMS-time or the other way around, we have a5 > mismatch from 1 or 2 hours.  >nK > We have made our own routines because we didn't find standard routines inA# > for example the Run Time Library.  >aG > Who can help us in finding the correct algoritm to convert the times?e >g >e   ------------------------------   Date: 25 May 2002 02:09:24 GMT1 From: JONESD@er6.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)i9 Subject: Re: TIme conversions between C-time and VMS-time : Message-ID: <acmrok$rm9$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>  + In message <acmbms$llf$1@news.process.com>,m)   "Chuck Viau" <viau@process.com> writes: L >If you are using the Multinet stack on OpenVMS, the MultiNet socket libraryC >has 'working'  functions which can perform the conversion for you.l >m. >    vms_time_to_localtime(VMS_TIME, TIMEVAL);    E Getting a VMS binary time to localtime is trivial.  Kwee's problem ishF converting an arbitrary localtime to the corresponding UTC (GMT) time.F The offset from GMT for a localtime in January is 1 hour less than theD offset for a localtime in June (unless you are talking about the fewK years in the 1970's where daylight savings was all year round in the U.S.).s    6 >"R.S.H. Kwee" <rshkwee@nospam.hr.nl> wrote in message, >news:acfpok$346$1@eubuf21.eu.concert.net...B >> We want to use the standard C-time routines in order to run the >application >> on VMS and on NT. >>B >> But now we have the problem that we receive times in VMS format >(quad-word,K >> 100 nsec) and we must convert it to C-time (offset 1-jan-1970, in sec.).nI >> The C-timestructure 'timeb' stores the GM-time and a offset and in theo5 >> calculating is also  the dayligth saving involved. L >> When we convert the C-time to VMS-time or the other way around, we have a >> mismatch from 1 or 2 hours. >>L >> We have made our own routines because we didn't find standard routines in$ >> for example the Run Time Library. >>  H Are you saying the conversion routines you wrote are producing the wrongH answers or some other method you tried for converting the times produced the wrong answers?  H >> Who can help us in finding the correct algoritm to convert the times? >>  F A good starting point is "man 3 timezone" and "man 4 tzfile" on a Unix system.e  J I wrote a short C++ program (~500 lines) to play around with my conversion, algorithm, you can download the source from:  <     http://www.er6.eng.ohio-state.edu/~jonesd/vms_to_gmt.cxx   Sample output:K     $ vms_to_gmt vms_to_gmt "7-FEB-2002 1:00:01.0" "24-MAY-2002 12:00:00.0"R7     Zoneinfo - time types: 2; transitions: 272  argc: 3A       bintim status: 1L     7-FEB-2002 1:00:01.0 -> 1013043601 -> 1013061601 -> differential: -18000*        reconvert: Thu Feb  7 01:00:01 2002       bintim status: 1N     24-MAY-2002 12:00:00.0 -> 1022241600 -> 1022256000 -> differential: -14400*        reconvert: Fri May 24 12:00:00 2002  )     $ define sys$localtime sys$tzdir:cet. @     $ vms_to_gmt "7-FEB-2002 1:00:01.0" "24-MAY-2002 12:00:00.0"7     Zoneinfo - time types: 2; transitions: 240  argc: 3        bintim status: 1J     7-FEB-2002 1:00:01.0 -> 1013043601 -> 1013040001 -> differential: 3600*        reconvert: Thu Feb  7 01:00:01 2002       bintim status: 1L     24-MAY-2002 12:00:00.0 -> 1022241600 -> 1022234400 -> differential: 7200*        reconvert: Fri May 24 12:00:00 2002      < David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929- Ohio State University        |      Internet:rL 140 W. 19th St. Rm. 231a     |               jonesd@er6s1.eng.ohio-state.edu: Columbus, OH 43210           |               vman+@osu.edu  1 Disclaimer: I'm looking for marbles all day long.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 14:48:58 -0400M0 From: "Syltrem" <syltremspammenot@videotron.com>' Subject: VAX maintenance... until when?33 Message-ID: <EVvH8.1192$H67.7320@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>e   Hi guys!  L I've been browsing for the last 20 minutes, and still can't find wher on theA HPaq site it says what the plans are for VAX systems maintenance.s  G I'd like a printed copy of the official position at HPaq, to confort myd boss.)  K I believe it's no problem yet, to keep our good old application on our goodl" old VAX for a couple' years still.   Thanks   --   SyltremtI http://pages.infinit.net/syltrem (OpenVMS related web site - en franais)-> To reply to myself directly, remove .spammenot from my address   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:59:49 -0400-2 From: rdeininger@mindspring.com (Robert Deininger)+ Subject: Re: VAX maintenance... until when?yK Message-ID: <rdeininger-2405021859500001@11cust83.tnt2.nashua.nh.da.uu.net>k  = In article <EVvH8.1192$H67.7320@tor-nn1.netcom.ca>, "Syltrem"r' <syltremspammenot@videotron.com> wrote:t  	 >Hi guys!u >lM >I've been browsing for the last 20 minutes, and still can't find wher on theiB >HPaq site it says what the plans are for VAX systems maintenance. >nH >I'd like a printed copy of the official position at HPaq, to confort my >boss. > L >I believe it's no problem yet, to keep our good old application on our good# >old VAX for a couple' years still.g  F The most recent statement of support I saw (and I can't find it at theI moment) was for a minimum of 5 years support from the last ship date of a-	 platform.-  J Since it is widely rumored that VAX maintenance is very profitable for HP,G I expect it will continue as long as there is demand an availability ofe spare parts.   ------------------------------  % Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 10:06:45 +1000E. From: Burnie M <burniem.NOSPAM@ozemail.com.au>+ Subject: Re: VAX maintenance... until when?d8 Message-ID: <calteuseek3v735ts0n8pkjabg0prbmqb1@4ax.com>  C Already received a letter from Compaq saying they will not maintainl MicroVAX 4000 after Jan 2003. 2 Still trying to clarify which models it refers to.   Burnie M    - On Fri, 24 May 2002 14:48:58 -0400, "Syltrem"E' <syltremspammenot@videotron.com> wrote:s  	 >Hi guys!r >sM >I've been browsing for the last 20 minutes, and still can't find wher on theDB >HPaq site it says what the plans are for VAX systems maintenance. >nH >I'd like a printed copy of the official position at HPaq, to confort my >boss. > L >I believe it's no problem yet, to keep our good old application on our good# >old VAX for a couple' years still.n >o >Thanksa   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:43:48 GMTlL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing!d8 Message-ID: <00A0E6B9.E0816D8F@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  h In article <htuH8.8$4g7.12567@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:6 >IBM cares about marketing. So does Sun. And it shows. >N= >The US Democratic Party cares about marketing. And it shows.p > H >HPQ and the Republican Party, who arguably offer superior products, areL >often marginalized by oversights, gaffes, inattention, or nonresponsiveness >on the marketing front.  & This is ludicrously off-topic, but ...  H The Republican Party is completely, completely aware of marketing.  TheyI produce a unified message-of-the-day and message-of-the-week and do theirnH best to make sure  that everyone who speaks to the media is on-message. E (You can see the results of this by watching the news or, especially,aG listening to political discussion shows, especially as spokespeople tryaG hard to steer whatever the question is around to where they can deliver1 today's message.)m  J If the Republicans were selling VMS, every talk-radio listener in America  would know about VMS.,   -- Alan2  O ===============================================================================S0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056tM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210lO ===============================================================================p   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 15:08:02 -0700 + From: "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com>i' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing!C' Message-ID: <3CEEB9C2.8050402@mmaz.com>   & --------------080204020003050509040305; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=floweds+ Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printablet    * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:  J >In article <htuH8.8$4g7.12567@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>, "Terry C. Shannon" =  <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes: > 7 >>IBM cares about marketing. So does Sun. And it shows.n >>> >>The US Democratic Party cares about marketing. And it shows. >>I >>HPQ and the Republican Party, who arguably offer superior products, aresJ >>often marginalized by oversights, gaffes, inattention, or nonresponsive= ness >>on the marketing front.> >> >C' >This is ludicrously off-topic, but ...s >eI >The Republican Party is completely, completely aware of marketing.  TheycJ >produce a unified message-of-the-day and message-of-the-week and do thei= rCK >best to make sure  that everyone who speaks to the media is on-message.=20,F >(You can see the results of this by watching the news or, especially,H >listening to political discussion shows, especially as spokespeople tryH >hard to steer whatever the question is around to where they can deliver >today's message.) > J >If the Republicans were selling VMS, every talk-radio listener in Americ= a=20 >would know about VMS. > D Guys, the arguments you're starting possibly ranks second only to=20 Religious or VMS/Unix wars. =20   J I'm as conservative as they come and as a general rule believe that the=20H Republicans do a far better job of representing the entrepreneur, but=20F Congress seems to be waffling on the Microsoft Monopoly persecution=20F which started back when the Rep's did have control of the House and=20K Senate.  I hate to say it, but it seemed that more aggressive action was=20v# occurring during Clinton's watch...o  E When it comes to Politics, the clich=E9 about it being "The Art of=20 E Compromise" is true but power and financial influence from outside=207H interests and corporations like Microsoft seem to be strong enough to=20@ influence and effect the proper functioning of our legal system.  J Though with all of the flaws and corruption that may exist, there isn't=20H a better form of government on earth.  Just remember that as we enter=20 the Memorial Day holiday..."   Barryt   --=20   B Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President & CIO=20  A E-mail: Treahy@mmaz.com * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028o      & --------------080204020003050509040305) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bita   <html> <head> </head>p <body> <br>. Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:<br>N <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:00A0E6B9.E0816D8F@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU">1  <pre wrap="">In article <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:htuH8.8$4g7.12567@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net">&lt;htuH8.8$4g7.12567@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net&gt;</a>, "Terry C. Shannon" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:terryshannon@attbi.com">&lt;terryshannon@attbi.com&gt;</a> writes:<br></pre>    <blockquote type="cite">M    <pre wrap="">IBM cares about marketing. So does Sun. And it shows.<br><br>The US Democratic Party cares about marketing. And it shows.<br><br>HPQ and the Republican Party, who arguably offer superior products, are<br>often marginalized by oversights, gaffes, inattention, or nonresponsiveness<br>on the marketing front.<br></pre>      </blockquote>      <pre wrap=""><!----><br>This is ludicrously off-topic, but ...<br><br>The Republican Party is completely, completely aware of marketing.  They<br>produce a unified message-of-the-day and message-of-the-week and do their<br>best to make sure  that everyone who speaks to the media is on-message. <br>(You can see the results of this by watching the news or, especially,<br>listening to political discussion shows, especially as spokespeople try<br>hard to steer whatever the question is around to where they c an deliver<br>today's message.)<br><br>If the Republicans were selling VMS, every talk-radio listener in America <br>would know about VMS.<br></pre>     </blockquote>eK Guys, the arguments you're starting possibly ranks second only to Religiousy or VMS/Unix wars. &nbsp;<br>     <br>S I'm as conservative as they come and as a general rule believe that the Republicans H do a far better job of representing the entrepreneur, but Congress seemsL to be waffling on the Microsoft Monopoly persecution which started back whenO the Rep's did have control of the House and Senate. &nbsp;I hate to say it, butsQ it seemed that more aggressive action was occurring during Clinton's watch...<br>t     <br>S When it comes to Politics, the clich&eacute; about it being "The Art of Compromise"PQ is true but power and financial influence from outside interests and corporationstJ like Microsoft seem to be strong enough to influence and effect the proper$ functioning of our legal system.<br>     <br>I Though with all of the flaws and corruption that may exist, there isn't ahU better form of government on earth. &nbsp;Just remember that as we enter the Memoriale Day holiday...<br>     <br>	 Barry<br> 6     <pre class="moz-signature" cols="$mailwrapcol">--   D Barry Treahy, Jr  *  Midwest Microwave  *  Vice President &amp; CIO    E-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Treahy@mmaz.com">Treahy@mmaz.com</a> * Phone: 480/314-1320 * FAX: 480/661-7028</pre>      <br>     </body>o     </html>A  ( --------------080204020003050509040305--   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 22:56:50 GMTa1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>s' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing!r5 Message-ID: <SyzH8.37$YV2.33299@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>l  6 "Barry Treahy, Jr." <Treahy@mmaz.com> wrote in message! news:3CEEB9C2.8050402@mmaz.com...   * Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr wrote:  G In article <htuH8.8$4g7.12567@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>, "Terry C. Shannon"y  <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:L IBM cares about marketing. So does Sun. And it shows.The US Democratic PartyE cares about marketing. And it shows.HPQ and the Republican Party, whonF arguably offer superior products, areoften marginalized by oversights,@ gaffes, inattention, or nonresponsivenesson the marketing front.I This is ludicrously off-topic, but ...The Republican Party is completely,aL completely aware of marketing.  Theyproduce a unified message-of-the-day andK message-of-the-week and do theirbest to make sure  that everyone who speakseL to the media is on-message. (You can see the results of this by watching theJ news or, especially,listening to political discussion shows, especially asK spokespeople tryhard to steer whatever the question is around to where theySF can delivertoday's message.)If the Republicans were selling VMS, every4 talk-radio listener in America would know about VMS.  K Guys, the arguments you're starting possibly ranks second only to Religiousd or VMS/Unix wars..  G Yep, Mom was right: she said that politics and religion should never beoJ topics of dinner table discussion. Mom passed away before the Internet andJ VMS hit the scene, elsewise the caveat would have been politics, religion,I and Operating Systems should never be the topic of dinner table or Usenetp discussions.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:57:13 GMTa1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>t' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing!t5 Message-ID: <ZGyH8.13$YV2.10277@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>r  H ""Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"" <winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>C wrote in message news:00A0E6B9.E0816D8F@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU...CI > In article <htuH8.8$4g7.12567@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>, "Terry C. Shannon"s  <terryshannon@attbi.com> writes:8 > >IBM cares about marketing. So does Sun. And it shows. > > ? > >The US Democratic Party cares about marketing. And it shows.u > > J > >HPQ and the Republican Party, who arguably offer superior products, are< > >often marginalized by oversights, gaffes, inattention, or nonresponsivenessi > >on the marketing front. >G( > This is ludicrously off-topic, but ... > J > The Republican Party is completely, completely aware of marketing.  TheyK > produce a unified message-of-the-day and message-of-the-week and do their I > best to make sure  that everyone who speaks to the media is on-message.AG > (You can see the results of this by watching the news or, especially,tI > listening to political discussion shows, especially as spokespeople try-I > hard to steer whatever the question is around to where they can deliver. > today's message.)u >cK > If the Republicans were selling VMS, every talk-radio listener in America$ > would know about VMS.t  1 Remaining ludicrously off-topic, I beg to differ.>  G Carville and his War Room helped pull it off for Clinton. Not once, butn twice.  D What party dreamed up the "Medicaid Medicare Education Environment,"2 "ForTheChildren," "WorkingFamilies," etc. mantras?  + And what party was too clueless to respond?t  I Methinks you may have your republiCONs mixed up with your democRATs. SuchgD mixtures are dangerous... they produce things like Acts of Congress.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:53:26 GMTr1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>t' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing!t4 Message-ID: <qDyH8.11$YV2.8756@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net>  < "Dave Gudewicz" <david.gudewicz@abbott.com> wrote in message+ news:ac0lti$g6l$1@fizban.pprd.abbott.com... I > Back to the kids for a moment, I have 3.  How can you sit at the supperMG > table telling the kids that you should stick up for what you think is  right,( > then go to work and do something else? >nK > And yes, I understand all too well the need to put food on the table, paye > for education, etc.n > $ > And this just popped into my head. >oG > Never give up.  Never surrender.    <---- remember that movie and them storye
 > it told?  E The cinematic adaptation of Robert A. Heinlein's "Starship Troopers."   J Nude coed shower scenes and big buckets of gore aside, I believe the moral( of the story is "Bugs are NOT Features."  4 The opinions of Micro$oft apologists may differ. ;-}   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 23:56:26 GMT ' From: Steve Thompson <smt@vgersoft.com>i' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing! H Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0205241956100.28412-100000@vger.vgersoft.com>  ) On Thu, 16 May 2002, Dave Gudewicz wrote:+  M > Never give up.  Never surrender.    <---- remember that movie and the storyl
 > it told?  
 Galaxy Quest?t   -s   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 00:53:06 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>0' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing!eG Message-ID: <SfBH8.81811$ah_.8561@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>   L Let's not bring politics, or anything else we wear on our sleeves into this. :-)r  E And as good as IBM is about marketing, arguably, Microsoft is better.0      < "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com> wrote in message. news:htuH8.8$4g7.12567@typhoon.ne.ipsvc.net...7 > IBM cares about marketing. So does Sun. And it shows." >E> > The US Democratic Party cares about marketing. And it shows. >eI > HPQ and the Republican Party, who arguably offer superior products, are0; > often marginalized by oversights, gaffes, inattention, or  nonresponsivenesse > on the marketing front.i >m >a >:   ------------------------------  # Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 02:49:15 GMTl1 From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM (Jerry Leslie) ' Subject: Re: Who cares about marketing! < Message-ID: <LYCH8.110327$9F5.6623643@typhoon.austin.rr.com>  0 Terry C. Shannon (terryshannon@attbi.com) wrote:7 : IBM cares about marketing. So does Sun. And it shows.  : > : The US Democratic Party cares about marketing. And it shows. : I : HPQ and the Republican Party, who arguably offer superior products, are M : often marginalized by oversights, gaffes, inattention, or nonresponsiveness: : on the marketing front.h :  : F Then there are those of us who agree with Thomas Ferguson that there's/ only one party in the U.S., the Property Party:a  ?      http://www.discovereconomics.com/bookstore/economicpolicy/s      0226243168AMUS177486.shtmla  F      Golden Rule : The Investment Theory of Party Competition and the D      Logic of Money-Driven Political Systems (American Politics and       Political Economy)p  F     '"To discover who rules, follow the gold." This is the argument ofC      Golden Rule, a provocative, pungent history of modern AmericanrF      politics. Although the role big money plays in defining politicalG      outcomes has long been obvious to ordinary Americans, most pundits.C      and scholars have virtually dismissed this assumption. Even in @      light of skyrocketing campaign costs, the belief that majorE      financial interests primarily determine who parties nominate andrC      where they stand on the issues--that, in effect, Democrats andvE      Republicans are merely the left and right wings of the "PropertyhD      Party"--has been ignored by most political scientists. OfferingF      evidence ranging from the nineteenth century to the 1994 mid-termH      elections, Golden Rule shows that voters are "right on the money."'  iF This article gives credence to the Property Party by pointing out thatD companies who enjoy the taxpayers' "gift" to the export of their own4 jobs contribute to both wings of the Property Party:  (      http://www.progress.org/corpw30.htm;      The Export-Import Bank: Corporate Welfare At Its Worstx  # Now back to the current discussion.i  H --Jerry Leslie   leslie@clio.rice.edu  (my opinions are strictly my own)9   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email<  8 "We don't have a democracy, we have an auction." - anon    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:11:32 GMT>" From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca>, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins9 Message-ID: <Xns92187C06C2FA0falkarcabca@205.233.108.180>s  0 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in% news:3CEE0E28.5282634B@videotron.ca: m  E >> > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them!h > H > I haven't had a problem with this, but an Aussi once commented on what& > was the logic in "naming" the coins. > 8 > Quarter is somewhat logical (one quarter of a dollar).C > Dime is a tad logical (probably derived from 1 tenth of a dollar)eB > But Nickel has absolutely no logic to it, especially since it is > bigger than the dime.   G There used to be logic, sort of: 10-, 25-, 50-cent, and 1 dollar coins mG were all silver.  5-cent was nickel and 1-cent was copper.  I remember  D people referring to 1-cent as "copper", but that usage has died out G completely, I think. (And all the coins in common circulation are made iD of base metal alloys and plating, not silver or gold.) Of course we H still refer to 1-cent coins as "pennies" in atavistic recall of British G coins.  We also use U.S. names for the other coins: that is, we always aD call a 10-cent coin as "dime", even though those words are official  terms in Canada.  H > Canadian coins that are common wth the USA in size have the numbers onD > them. Our $1 and $2 coins are unique since the USA don't have such  > coins in popular circulation.  > H > It is really strange to see $1 paper bills in the USA. In Canada, whenF > you want to buy a chocolate bar, you reach into your pockets, but inA > the USA, you reach into your wallet to pull out paper currency.l  F The use of single colour for all bills seems to be poor human factors  design, to me.   -- t@ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca i@ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Road=1                         Edmonton, Alberta, CanadaO http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4i  http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:25:44 +010094 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins8 Message-ID: <oa1teuo2jvtlg7v03sub9nnqbhnaadns44@4ax.com>  D On Fri, 24 May 2002 16:19:33 +0100, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net> wrote:   >Bob Koehler wrote:: >: >> [...snip...]m >> >>    So how much is a quid? >0@ >Unless I'm mistaken, a quid is about one buck, two quarters and! >a nickle (or is it a dime ?  :-)1  H Wake up at the back :-)  A quid is only about one buck, one quarter, one dime and one nickel these days.:  , Now, a guinea - might be nearer your mark...     	JohnT   ------------------------------   Date: 24 May 2002 18:26:49 GMT1 From: bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) , Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins+ Message-ID: <acm0l9$35a$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>n  = In article <9f261edc.0205240546.56ab8dc6@posting.google.com>,n0  tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell) writes: |> sE |>                             When Clinton was in the White House, IfH |> even heard a UK newscaster pronounce "Arkansas" as it's spelled. Dear; |> oh dear, 10 seconds research would have sorted that out.   C If you mean like "ar" "kansas" as opposed to "arkansaw" that is howyE it was pronounced until at least the 50's.  I have a rather extensivetB collection of Old Time Radio Shows and am amazed at how many words5 have changed their american pronunciation since then.h   bill   -- aJ Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   s   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 19:48:53 GMT ( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins+ Message-ID: <3CEE997D.D756A20F@pacbell.net>g   Paul Anderson wrote: > E > In article <3CEDFF0B.331DBE2C@Omond.net>, Roy Omond <Roy@Omond.net>' > wrote: >  > > John Reagan wrote: > >a > > > [...snip...] > > >iL > > > Here in Boston, once you get inside of US Customs all signs are mostlyC > > > in English only.  Not very friendly for non-English speakers.r > > > F > > > My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them! > >eL > > Careful John.  Your gripe about USofA'an coins is a rats' nest I've been7 > > down before (still locatable in groups.google.com).  > H > There was a reasonable discussion recently in the rec.collecting.coinsF > newsgroup about a redesign of US coins.  There were some good ideas,I > including putting the more easily understood numbers on them instead ofM' > using "nickel", "dime" and "quarter".= > F > > I had just come back from my first trip to the USofA, and had beenH > > completely baffled by the the whole of the currency there (all notes8 > > the same size and colour, the coins as you mention). > F > The color problem may be solved in a few years, as the government isD > investigating using different colors.  I haven't heard about using5 > different sizes, although that would be better too.x > B > > I recall walking around with pockets bulging with loose changeE > > preferring to attempt to pay for everything with notes that would 0 > > obviously be big enough to cover the charge. > C > The US coin and bill denominations are outdated.  Therefore, most F > people are now in the habit of spending bills and receiving coins asD > change.  The coins get put into a big jar at home instead of being > spent. > G > As inflation changes the dollar value of things, the system should be E > adjusted so that bills continue for larger denominations only.  The I > value of a US dollar is comparable to a quarter of thirty years ago andeF > it is long since time to discontinue the making of dollar bills.  It& > would save $500 million a year, too! >   P I gotta disagree with that. I hate carrying coins around. They're heavy and makeM clinky sounds when you walk with them in your pockets. I'd like to get rid ofh5 them all and round all prices to the nearest dollar. t   -- w   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San Francisco    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 16:44:52 -0400n- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>', Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins, Message-ID: <3CEEA643.16DDAFB8@videotron.ca>  N Australia and New Zealand both have the $2 coin much smaller than the 1$ coin.? And they *seem* to be identical in size (at least the $2 coin).   5 Australia doesn't have a $0.25 but have a giant $0.20o  K Both countries were smart enough to get rid of the $0.01 piece and when your3 pay cash, the price is rounded to the nearest $0.05b    M Yes, one does quickly get used to it once there. But if you are just arriving M and some of the coins do not have a number of them, you really do need to askeI and you may look pretty silly asking for something which everyone in that  country knows.  K as far as adapting to local language, because my name contsina a "z" I have N gotten used to it because my name's spelling varies depending on where I call.M And since I worked for international organisations, I was much more sensitive N to producing documents fitted for intl consumption than the american board whoL had no clue about differences in language (and especially telephone numbers)F elsewhere. I even kept a stock of A4 paper so i could distribute paperL documents that originated outside of north america in their original format.  E Interestingly, Digital had produced a book on internationalisation of N software. (Developing International User Information, order number EY-H894E-DPL (Digital Press). It contains all sorts of various formats for many countriesL (currency, time, number, adresses etc) as well as various software tricks to make such support easier.    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:10:23 GMTn& From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins# Message-ID: <3CEEAAF1.90005@hp.com>T   Don Sykes wrote:   > R > I gotta disagree with that. I hate carrying coins around. They're heavy and makeO > clinky sounds when you walk with them in your pockets. I'd like to get rid of 7 > them all and round all prices to the nearest dollar.   >   J I like the "one" dollar coin.  I just wish it was the "1" dollar coin. :-)  I Another point of confusion told to me years ago was the fact that the US rF has a 25 cent coin, but a 20 dollar bill.  They expected some sort of 	 symmetry.o  % I still like to get and use $2 bills!    -- u John Reagan,' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leadery Hewlett-Packard Companya   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 21:27:21 GMTeL From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr"), Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins8 Message-ID: <00A0E6B7.9448761D@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  _ In article <acm0l9$35a$2@info.cs.uofs.edu>, bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:e> >In article <9f261edc.0205240546.56ab8dc6@posting.google.com>,1 > tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell) writes:u >|> F >|>                             When Clinton was in the White House, II >|> even heard a UK newscaster pronounce "Arkansas" as it's spelled. Deara< >|> oh dear, 10 seconds research would have sorted that out. >dD >If you mean like "ar" "kansas" as opposed to "arkansaw" that is howF >it was pronounced until at least the 50's.  I have a rather extensiveC >collection of Old Time Radio Shows and am amazed at how many wordsi6 >have changed their american pronunciation since then.  J I don't think the pronunciation of Arkansas  as "Arkansaw" is that recent,I although I'm willing to believe that you have radio transcripts of peoplehK saying Ar-kansas in the 1940s.  I have books of square dance calls from theLL 1930s,  with calls supposedly remembered from at least a generation earlier,. where Arkansas is rhymed with "Taw" and "Haw".  = (Were you the one asking if we could get any more off-topic?)i   -- AlanM  O ===============================================================================y0  Alan Winston --- WINSTON@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUM  Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL   Phone:  650/926-3056nM  Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA  94309-0210 O ===============================================================================u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 18:23:30 -0400  From: Everhart <ge@gce.com>a, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins& Message-ID: <3CEEBD62.4040307@gce.com>  : If you weighed the old US silver coins, the weight exactly< scaled as the value: quarter was 2.5 times weight of a dime,/ fifty cent piece 5 times, dollar coin 10 times.r  B Now of course we have these LBJ dimes, quarters, and half dollars,? and shrunk dollar coins because somebody decided the old dollarl? coins were too big and heavy (and I presume expensive to make).t  C Of course we have this decimal currency system which does not forceeD people to learn to do arithmetic properly as the old British coinageC did. After awhile we forget the measures. A firkin is I believe 1/4eE barrel, but how many gallons to a barrel? Bushels and pecks are stillrD familiar since all the roadside stands have bushel and peck baskets.A It is of course always fun to express, say, the speed of light in  rods per fortnight...e       Alfred Falk wrote:2 > JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in' > news:3CEE0E28.5282634B@videotron.ca: < >  > D >>>>My biggest gripe is about US coins.  They don't numbers on them! >>>yH >>I haven't had a problem with this, but an Aussi once commented on what& >>was the logic in "naming" the coins. >>8 >>Quarter is somewhat logical (one quarter of a dollar).C >>Dime is a tad logical (probably derived from 1 tenth of a dollar)iB >>But Nickel has absolutely no logic to it, especially since it is >>bigger than the dime.g >  > I > There used to be logic, sort of: 10-, 25-, 50-cent, and 1 dollar coins  I > were all silver.  5-cent was nickel and 1-cent was copper.  I remember  F > people referring to 1-cent as "copper", but that usage has died out I > completely, I think. (And all the coins in common circulation are made tF > of base metal alloys and plating, not silver or gold.) Of course we J > still refer to 1-cent coins as "pennies" in atavistic recall of British I > coins.  We also use U.S. names for the other coins: that is, we always -F > call a 10-cent coin as "dime", even though those words are official  > terms in Canada. >  > H >>Canadian coins that are common wth the USA in size have the numbers onD >>them. Our $1 and $2 coins are unique since the USA don't have such  >>coins in popular circulation.  >>H >>It is really strange to see $1 paper bills in the USA. In Canada, whenF >>you want to buy a chocolate bar, you reach into your pockets, but inA >>the USA, you reach into your wallet to pull out paper currency.o >  > H > The use of single colour for all bills seems to be poor human factors  > design, to me. >    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 22:26:18 GMT." From: Alfred Falk <falk@arc.ab.ca>, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins9 Message-ID: <Xns9218A73856493falkarcabca@205.233.108.180>m  4 bill@triangle.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote in$ news:acm0l9$35a$2@info.cs.uofs.edu:   ? > In article <9f261edc.0205240546.56ab8dc6@posting.google.com>,t2 >  tessier-ashpool@usa.net (Chris Bardell) writes: >|> F >|>                             When Clinton was in the White House, ID >|> even heard a UK newscaster pronounce "Arkansas" as it's spelled.A >|> Dear oh dear, 10 seconds research would have sorted that out., > E > If you mean like "ar" "kansas" as opposed to "arkansaw" that is howeG > it was pronounced until at least the 50's.  I have a rather extensiveFD > collection of Old Time Radio Shows and am amazed at how many words7 > have changed their american pronunciation since then.   A Hmmm... A data point on this:  I first heard the name on CBC newsA@ (national, out of Toronto) in 1956 or 1957.  The announcers saidI "arkansaw" and it took me (in grade 2) a while to connect the spoken and t written word.    -- v@ ----------------------------------------------------------------A   A L B E R T A         Alfred Falk               falk@arc.ab.ca  @ R E S E A R C H         Information Systems Dept   (780)450-5185+   C O U N C I L         250 Karl Clark Road31                         Edmonton, Alberta, Canadas http://www.arc.ab.ca/   T6N 1E4   http://www.arc.ab.ca/staff/falk/   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 23:36:08 GMT ( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins+ Message-ID: <3CEECEC3.DDFA728A@pacbell.net>e   Everhart wrote:c >  <snip>E > Of course we have this decimal currency system which does not forcebF > people to learn to do arithmetic properly as the old British coinageE > did. After awhile we forget the measures. A firkin is I believe 1/4iG > barrel, but how many gallons to a barrel? Bushels and pecks are stilliF > familiar since all the roadside stands have bushel and peck baskets.C > It is of course always fun to express, say, the speed of light in  > rods per fortnight...h  6 I LOVE that! Have you ever calculated rods/fortnight ?   -- e   Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San Franciscoo   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 23:42:19 GMTg( From: Don Sykes <annonymous@pacbell.net>, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins+ Message-ID: <3CEED036.ED022429@pacbell.net>i   Everhart wrote:f >  <snip>E > Of course we have this decimal currency system which does not force.F > people to learn to do arithmetic properly as the old British coinageE > did. After awhile we forget the measures. A firkin is I believe 1/4eG > barrel, but how many gallons to a barrel? Bushels and pecks are stilleF > familiar since all the roadside stands have bushel and peck baskets.C > It is of course always fun to express, say, the speed of light in  > rods per fortnight...: > 6 I LOVE that! Have you ever calculated rods/fortnight ?   How would that look? C=R/FN ?   2 Would that make the 'E', as in E=MC2, horsepower ?  I Of course you'd have to substitute M as "stones" (or would long-tons work3
 better)...   --     Have VMS. Will Travel. Wire Paladin @alphase.com 
 San Franciscom   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 23:52:20 GMTo' From: Steve Thompson <smt@vgersoft.com>o, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coinsH Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0205241951160.28412-100000@vger.vgersoft.com>  $ On Fri, 24 May 2002, Everhart wrote:  E > Of course we have this decimal currency system which does not force F > people to learn to do arithmetic properly as the old British coinageE > did. After awhile we forget the measures. A firkin is I believe 1/4rG > barrel, but how many gallons to a barrel? Bushels and pecks are still F > familiar since all the roadside stands have bushel and peck baskets.C > It is of course always fun to express, say, the speed of light in  > rods per fortnight...o  H I always thought that a firkin was an Olde English measure, usually usedE in units of two to denote an excess. For example, two firkin big, two" firkin heavy, etc.   -s   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 17:09:03 -0700hM From: "Kenneth H. Fairfield" <Kenneth.H.Fairfield@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net>n, Subject: Re: [Change topic]:  USofA'an coins: Message-ID: <3CEED61F.355FEEFD@spam-be-gone.intel.com.net>   system@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:  c > In article <AhzFd50yTkle@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:w   [...]p   >uL > >       You don't have to leave the country to get bizarre pronunciations.O > >       When visiting Pennsylvania and/or after moving back, it is surprising-J > >       how many Penn. folks pronounce Illinois as "Ill-a-noise" instead$ > >       of the correct "Ill-a-noi" > >o% > >                               Rob  > L > Ne'er heard that in all my years as a Penna. native.  Where did you happen > to hear that adulteration?  E     I remember an undergraduate working in our lab when I was in grad-F school (in California).  He was from Philadelphia and I always cringedF when he said the word "error".  He pronounced it "ur-ur" (the sound ofH the "er" in the word "runner"), whereas I'd _always_ heard it pronouncedI "air-or", or slightly slurred as "air-ur", with the 1st and 2nd syllableseH run together.  In order to even say "ur-ur", it takes nearly a full-stop between syllables...       -Ken --6 I don't speak for Intel, Intel doesn't speak for me...  
 Ken Fairfield ! F20 Automation VMS System Supportu kenneth.h.fairfield#intel.comi   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.287 ************************