1 INFO-VAX	Wed, 13 Nov 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 627       Contents:4 RE: ??== OVMS 7.3-1:.PCSI_INSTALL_MIN hangs - Part 24 Re: ??== OVMS 7.3-1:.PCSI_INSTALL_MIN hangs - Part 25 Re: Alpha network performance issues over leased line 5 Re: Alpha network performance issues over leased line 5 Re: Alpha network performance issues over leased line 5 Re: Alpha network performance issues over leased line 5 Re: Alpha network performance issues over leased line + Re: Alpha versus Vax linker PSECT addresses  Re: AltaVista changes   Re: Capellas to head up WorldCom  Re: Capellas to head up WorldCom CDE GUI died...  Re: CDE GUI died... + Re: DS10 600Mhz Special this month USD 3995 / Re: Fabio's A-Z questions to HP (Year 2003) !!! ! Finding out who has write handles % RE: Finding out who has write handles % Re: Finding out who has write handles  Re: Formatting hard disk(s)  Re: Formatting hard disk(s)  Re: Formatting hard disk(s)  Re: Formatting hard disk(s)  Re: Formatting hard disk(s)  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: HP Advocacy Site Re: HP Advocacy Site Re: HP Advocacy Site Re: HP Advocacy Site Re: HP Advocacy Site Re: HP Advocacy Site Re: HP Advocacy Site Re: HP Advocacy Site+ Re: HP Moving Tandem Maintenance Offshore ? + Re: HP Moving Tandem Maintenance Offshore ? + Re: HP Moving Tandem Maintenance Offshore ? + Re: HP Moving Tandem Maintenance Offshore ? + Re: HP Moving Tandem Maintenance Offshore ? 2 Re: Identifying a MOP load client with DECnet/Plus Include problems with hp C/CXX) Re: Installing VMS 7.3 on a MicroVAX 3400 % Installing VMS 7.3 on a MicroVAX 3400 ) Re: Installing VMS 7.3 on a MicroVAX 3400 & Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbye& Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbye& Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbye& Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbye& Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbye& Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbye& Re: Looking for contract opportunities3 Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS 3 Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS / Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS 3 Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS 3 Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS 3 Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS 3 Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS 3 Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS 3 Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS  Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWING Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: Palladium article  Re: Pathworks and a PDC Change8 Re: POP Client for VMSmail (not POP Mail client for VMS)8 Re: POP Client for VMSmail (not POP Mail client for VMS)8 Re: POP Client for VMSmail (not POP Mail client for VMS)- Scheduler - how to re-instate an entry number . Scheduling Ingres Procedure on VAX/VMS system.2 Re: Scheduling Ingres Procedure on VAX/VMS system. Re: symbol substitution  symbol substitution  Re: symbol substitution  Re: symbol substitution  SYS$ICC_RECEIVE question system calls, RE time  Re: system calls, RE time  Re: system calls, RE time  Re: system calls, RE time  TCPIP 5.3:  VAX DHCP server 8 Re: VMS @ 25 --- Mark Gorham's Presentation at HPETS20028 Re: VMS @ 25 --- Mark Gorham's Presentation at HPETS20028 Re: VMS @ 25 --- Mark Gorham's Presentation at HPETS2002 RE: VMS freeware> Re: VMS machines behind DSL router---do I need PAT or just NAT> Re: VMS machines behind DSL router---do I need PAT or just NAT> Re: VMS machines behind DSL router---do I need PAT or just NAT> Re: VMS machines behind DSL router---do I need PAT or just NAT; RE: VMS mentioned in Comp.risks article on WA pipeline fire 
 Re: VMS Sales 
 Re: VMS Sales 
 Re: VMS Sales 
 Re: VMS Sales 
 Re: VMS Sales 
 RE: VMS Sales ; VMS V7.2-1 v. Exabyte EXB-8505XL and compression/compaction  Re: Voting Systems ?5 RE: What EV am I running? (family name for processor) 5 RE: What EV am I running? (family name for processor) 5 RE: What EV am I running? (family name for processor) 5 Re: What EV am I running? (family name for processor)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  " Date: Tue, 12 Nov 02 12:57:18 +100 From: rok@nuk.uni-lj.si = Subject: RE: ??== OVMS 7.3-1:.PCSI_INSTALL_MIN hangs - Part 2 & Message-ID: <3dd108c2$1@NUK.Uni-Lj.Si>  A In Article <aus-508963.12291412112002@wrzx08.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de> 0 "Hans M. Aus" <aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes: [...]  >$if f$search - F >("sys$sysdevice:[vms$common]dec-axpvms-vms-*-2.pcsi$description",1) -
 >..eqs. "" >$endif   "  Are the two dots yours or theirs?   Regards, Rok ------------D Rok Vidmar                       Internet:  rok.vidmar@nuk.uni-lj.si; National and University Library  Phone:     +386 1 421 5461 ; Turjaska 1, SI-1000 Ljubljana    Fax:       +386 1 421 5464  Slovenia   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:49:56 +0100 3 From: "Aus, Hans Magnus" <aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de> = Subject: Re: ??== OVMS 7.3-1:.PCSI_INSTALL_MIN hangs - Part 2 B Message-ID: <aus-D4A72F.20495412112002@wrzx08.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de>  ? In article <3dd108c2$1@NUK.Uni-Lj.Si>, rok@nuk.uni-lj.si wrote:   C > In Article <aus-508963.12291412112002@wrzx08.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de> 2 > "Hans M. Aus" <aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de> writes: > [...]  > >$if f$search - H > >("sys$sysdevice:[vms$common]dec-axpvms-vms-*-2.pcsi$description",1) - > >..eqs. ""	 > >$endif  > $ >  Are the two dots yours or theirs?  ; They're not mine - I'll check again tomorrow at the office.  >  > Regards, Rok > ------------F > Rok Vidmar                       Internet:  rok.vidmar@nuk.uni-lj.si= > National and University Library  Phone:     +386 1 421 5461 = > Turjaska 1, SI-1000 Ljubljana    Fax:       +386 1 421 5464 
 > Slovenia   --  4 Hans Magnus Aus, Wuerzburg, aus@vim.uni-wuerzburg.de   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:28:48 +0000 (UTC) * From: "Maverick" <maverick902@hotmail.com>> Subject: Re: Alpha network performance issues over leased line1 Message-ID: <aqs2rg$2ga$1@knossos.btinternet.com>   F > Ten _seconds_ !?! That is huge - in speed-of-light terms it would beG > the equivalent to going through something like five geosync satellite  > links each way.   - Err, yeah that should have been 10ms, Sory!!!    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:45:57 +0000 (UTC) * From: "Maverick" <maverick902@hotmail.com>> Subject: Re: Alpha network performance issues over leased line0 Message-ID: <aqs3rl$963$1@sparta.btinternet.com>   Dale and Rick,  D Thanks for your posts. Sorry I've been offline for a couple of days.  H The box is running UCX4.2.  Is this known to be buggy?  I'll try and run1 that TCPIPTRACE tomorrow to get some more output.    Thanks again   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:48:32 +0000 (UTC) * From: "Maverick" <maverick902@hotmail.com>> Subject: Re: Alpha network performance issues over leased line0 Message-ID: <aqs40g$9bu$1@sparta.btinternet.com>  G > One question about the network.  Are you 100% sure that everything is  running 5 > full duplex?  I tried full duplex once on an Alpha,   L Everything is indeed running at full duplex, but have tried all combinations3 of 10 /100 half / full with unfortunately no effect    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:52:43 +0000 (UTC) * From: "Maverick" <maverick902@hotmail.com>> Subject: Re: Alpha network performance issues over leased line/ Message-ID: <aqs48b$4i6$1@helle.btinternet.com>   ? > Have you checked the really simple hardware thing, namely the D > connecting cable going into Alpha box B?  Split pairs in the cable& > could be the cause of your problems.   Hi Carl,  K The cables have been checked and are OK.  I would have liked a ix like that  :)   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:53:51 +0000 (UTC) * From: "Maverick" <maverick902@hotmail.com>> Subject: Re: Alpha network performance issues over leased line/ Message-ID: <aqs4af$71p$1@venus.btinternet.com>   B > Out of curiosity are the SUBNET masks the same on these systems? >    Yes,  16 bit both sides    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:53:44 GMT & From: John Reagan <john.reagan@hp.com>4 Subject: Re: Alpha versus Vax linker PSECT addresses2 Message-ID: <YB8A9.15$oD3.326776@news.cpqcorp.net>   Paul Hallam wrote:  G > If there is no simple solution I will bite the bullet and rewrite the  > software.  >   E If you put each variable in its own psect AND if you name the psects  E correctly (or use a COLLECT statement in a linker options file), you  ? might be able to get the variables to be in the order you want.   G There is no simple solution to get the compiler to honor lexical order  I within a single psect.  The only source level solution is to rewrite the  0 code to use a single record with several fields.     --   John Reagan ' Compaq Pascal/{A|I}MACRO Project Leader  Hewlett-Packard Company    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:37:27 -0500 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: AltaVista changes. Message-ID: <3DD10417.EFA816CD@mindspring.com>   JF Mezei wrote:   K > I used to have a bookmark for the text version of advanced search on Alta C > Vista. If course, with progress, they had to remove that feature.  > K > Now, I am forced to watch those ads on their normal advanced search page.   ! Is "Raging Search" still around ?   5 This was a re-packaging of the now-bloated Alta Vista 5 back towards its once-svelt beginnings; you remember, / when it just searched but actually did it well?    Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:52:00 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>) Subject: Re: Capellas to head up WorldCom 2 Message-ID: <gl-dnStw8OhBxkygXTWc3g@metrocast.net>  C "Martin Heller" <martin.nospam.heller@mheller.org> wrote in message $ news:3DD08B23.5030901@mheller.org... >  > Shane Smith schrieb:I > > Very interesting. What is your reason for believing the cancelling of L > > the backup chip (Yamhill?) is the reason for Andy's change of jobs, if ID > > may ask? I notice he's very careful in that post not to give any2 > > reasons, and it's his only post in the thread. > * > http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=4565 > 
 > excerpt: > G > "AN ENGINEER WHO LEFT INTEL FOR AMD has posted a cryptic message on a G > newsgroup and picked up on Ace's Hardware here trying to avoid saying  > why he's done so.  > I > Spookily, your inquiring INQUIRER picked up on a earlier piece at Ace's J > place that had unearthed Andy Glew's CV online. Glew said he'd worked onH > a cancelled project which "proposed to extend the IA32/X86 instructionB > set to 64 bits". Guesses are that the canellation left poor GlewB > twiddling his thumbs, so he jumped ship to arch-rival AMD.  ..."  H Actually, while that was indeed a reasonable speculation, Andy has sinceJ said that the 64-bit IA32 extension he worked on was a 1997 project calledJ IA32+ (in Israel?).  Which isn't to say that he wasn't either vocationally: or emotionally involved with Yamhill as well, I suppose...   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:48:04 +0000 ' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy ) Subject: Re: Capellas to head up WorldCom . Message-ID: <3DD130C4.1040500@nospamn.sun.com>   JF Mezei wrote:  > Duncan Macdonald wrote:  > J >>Perhaps it is time for Sun to give the "Employee of the Decade Award" to9 >>Capellas for his services in removing their competition  >  > N > Good one. And Scott McNealy might be capable of doing such a thing. It wouldL > be good marketing too, unless Worldcom is a big customer for Sun, in which& > case, Sun shouldn't insult Worldcom. >    They are a Sun customer.   Regards  Andrew Harrison    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:53:26 -0800 + From: "Mike Scott" <mscott_NOSPAM@axys.com>  Subject: CDE GUI died...  Message-ID: <3dd179d7$1@nubby2.>  H I've got a Compaq Alphastation with factory installed v7.2-1 (never beenI ECO'd).  It has been purring along for years, yet twice in the past week, H the GUI up-and-died on me.  All that was remaining was a gray screen andL movable mouse pointer.  I could telnet in and RESTART the GUI, but of course5 lost control of the previously running apps -sigh.... I I've been researching, but can't find a common source (and resolution) to J this problem.  One VMS guru I spoke to has seen this behaviour in the pastJ (he offered me the correct RESTART command).  Another guru had never heard of such a problem.F I was actively using the workstation, so I don't thing the problem wasH screensaver-related.  Also during each event, I was not running the sameJ app.  I have been running the same few apps on this box for years.  No newH hardware of software changes in many months.  Anyone have some pieces to this puzzle? -with thanks
 Mike Scott  J btw: If ECOing is the answer, which kit specifically addresses this issue?4 I'd rather not start ECOing just for the heck of it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:48:13 -0500 & From: Mickalide <mickalide@empire.net> Subject: Re: CDE GUI died...) Message-ID: <3DD1AF5D.2090105@empire.net>   G The window manager dying if I remember correctly was a problem about a  H year ago but I am not at work to try and find what specific release and  what the fix was.     -Jim-      Mike Scott wrote:   I >I've got a Compaq Alphastation with factory installed v7.2-1 (never been J >ECO'd).  It has been purring along for years, yet twice in the past week,I >the GUI up-and-died on me.  All that was remaining was a gray screen and M >movable mouse pointer.  I could telnet in and RESTART the GUI, but of course 6 >lost control of the previously running apps -sigh....J >I've been researching, but can't find a common source (and resolution) toK >this problem.  One VMS guru I spoke to has seen this behaviour in the past K >(he offered me the correct RESTART command).  Another guru had never heard  >of such a problem. G >I was actively using the workstation, so I don't thing the problem was I >screensaver-related.  Also during each event, I was not running the same K >app.  I have been running the same few apps on this box for years.  No new I >hardware of software changes in many months.  Anyone have some pieces to 
 >this puzzle? 
 >-with thanks  >Mike Scott  > K >btw: If ECOing is the answer, which kit specifically addresses this issue? 5 >I'd rather not start ECOing just for the heck of it.  >  >    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:53:51 GMT  From: danco@ns2.pebble.org4 Subject: Re: DS10 600Mhz Special this month USD 39950 Message-ID: <slrnat376k.sa.danco@ns2.pebble.org>  < In article <ustq228vn6fl93@news.supernews.com>, ICUSC wrote:8 > Limited time only, one per customer at special pricing >  > DS10 600Mhz EV67 > 512MB  > CDROM and Floppy > 9GB U2 SCSI Disk > Ultra2 SCSI Controller > Dual 10/100 Ethernet  8 Any difference in price if you drop the following items?   > VX1 Oxygen 32MB Video PCI  > Keyboard & 3 Button  Mouse > VMS Base license   - Dan    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:56:39 -0600 1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> 8 Subject: Re: Fabio's A-Z questions to HP (Year 2003) !!!' Message-ID: <3DD1CD77.9E8E81B9@fsi.net>    Larry Kilgallen wrote: > e > In article <bN$HcKuIWFpT@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: _ > > In article <3DD07B7F.A4C289A0@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:  > >> > >> Where can I read about it?  > >> > > > > >    In a very old MUP.  (Details intentioanlly not posted.) > ? > At least one such problem was addressed by a MUP to VMS V4.4. / > The problem had not existed in (C2) VMS V4.3.   B I remember a very important MUP to V4.4, and may even have he TK50( around here somewhere (y'never know...).  * I take it that's been long since fixed...?   --   David J. Dachtera  dba DJE Systems  http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:54:02 -0500 . From: "Jeremy Ho" <jeho@factset.SPAMBLOCK.com>* Subject: Finding out who has write handles1 Message-ID: <aqrt9r$pl8$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>   J I would like to see what process(es) have file handles in write mode for aJ particular file, at the VMS level.  I am able to find handles overall to aG particular file with $ sh dev/files, but I am not able to tell which of  those are in write mode.  A I've been trying to find VMS documentation for this, to no avail.   
 Any ideas?   Thanks,  Jeremy   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:25:55 -0500 $ From: Mike Duffy <Duffy@process.com>. Subject: RE: Finding out who has write handlesJ Message-ID: <63D30D6E10CFD11190A90000F805FE860492AE8F@lespaul.process.com>  ; Are you comfortable writing/modifying the appropriate code?   < I'd try locating the FCB, walk the WCB list from FCB$L_WLFL,6 and check the WCB$V_WRITEAC bit in WCB$W_ACON for each WCB.  7 I have some mostly-appropriate code (in C) around here  7 somewhere if you want it.  It takes a device and PID as 5 input, shows what files the process has open on that  > device, and their read and write counts.  It could be modified5 to display all processes accessing a particular file,  and the bit mentioned above.   -Mike Duffy    > -----Original Message-----5 > From: Jeremy Ho [mailto:jeho@factset.SPAMBLOCK.com] * > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 4:54 PM > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com , > Subject: Finding out who has write handles >  > < > I would like to see what process(es) have file handles in  > write mode for a@ > particular file, at the VMS level.  I am able to find handles  > overall to a< > particular file with $ sh dev/files, but I am not able to  > tell which of  > those are in write mode. > C > I've been trying to find VMS documentation for this, to no avail.  >  > Any ideas? > 	 > Thanks,  > Jeremy >  >  >    ------------------------------    Date: 12 Nov 2002 19:53:40 -0800# From: dooleys@snowy.net.au (dooley) . Subject: Re: Finding out who has write handles= Message-ID: <1ca82fc6.0211121953.4606c648@posting.google.com>   g "Jeremy Ho" <jeho@factset.SPAMBLOCK.com> wrote in message news:<aqrt9r$pl8$1@news01.cit.cornell.edu>... L > I would like to see what process(es) have file handles in write mode for aL > particular file, at the VMS level.  I am able to find handles overall to aI > particular file with $ sh dev/files, but I am not able to tell which of  > those are in write mode. > C > I've been trying to find VMS documentation for this, to no avail.  >  > Any ideas? > 	 > Thanks,  > Jeremy1 You can get more information (but not process id) 1 by setting rms monitoring on specific files using   $ set file/statistics <filename>F (the file must not be opened by any other processes while you do this)   then $ monitor rms /file=<filename>  < another alternative is to try and take out an exclusive lock@ on the file (with a wait) and then use one of the freeware toolsD (eg. blocking) to find out the process that is blocking your access. Phil   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:07:02 -0500 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>$ Subject: Re: Formatting hard disk(s). Message-ID: <3DD10B06.CD5E64EA@mindspring.com>   Jurren Bouman wrote:  E > We have to clean the hard drives, and possible a raid-5, and remove F > all the data from the disks. How can we do this? It really has to be > something like DOS' "format" > H > Hardware is: Digital AlphaServer 1000 4/200 and the installed software > is OpenVMS 6.2.  > F > Is there a free tool somewhere because I don't have any boot CD's or > anything else..;-(  2 Unstated assumption: You want to keep the disks in operational condition?  / Because, otherwise, physical destruction of the , disks is usually cheapest *AND* most secure.   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:41:24 -0500 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> $ Subject: Re: Formatting hard disk(s)/ Message-ID: <ut2895qltge382@news.supernews.com>   2 "Jurren Bouman" <jubo@euronet.nl> wrote in message2 news:0122tu43fggipm31q3bbcqoiskcsfm4f8t@4ax.com...E > We have to clean the hard drives, and possible a raid-5, and remove F > all the data from the disks. How can we do this? It really has to be > something like DOS' "format" > H > Hardware is: Digital AlphaServer 1000 4/200 and the installed software > is OpenVMS 6.2.  > F > Is there a free tool somewhere because I don't have any boot CD's or > anything else..;-( >      It's part of VMS.    $ INIT/ERASE device-name:    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:33:59 +0000 4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>$ Subject: Re: Formatting hard disk(s)8 Message-ID: <q6b2tuss48ja3k03rnhn77aje65l51pjbs@4ax.com>  J On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:41:24 -0500, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote:  3 >"Jurren Bouman" <jubo@euronet.nl> wrote in message 3 >news:0122tu43fggipm31q3bbcqoiskcsfm4f8t@4ax.com... F >> We have to clean the hard drives, and possible a raid-5, and removeG >> all the data from the disks. How can we do this? It really has to be  >> something like DOS' "format"  >>I >> Hardware is: Digital AlphaServer 1000 4/200 and the installed software  >> is OpenVMS 6.2. >>G >> Is there a free tool somewhere because I don't have any boot CD's or  >> anything else..;-(  >> >  >It's part of VMS. >  >$ INIT/ERASE device-name:  H Last time I checked the documentation for this, it seemed to suggest theJ volume was marked erase-on-allocate (my words), not that anything happenedJ at INIT time.  A better bet would be ANAL/MEDIA/EXERCISE - you can specifyK the write pattern, so several passes with complete bit-flips ought to erase = any possibility of a "shadow" of the original data remaining.   D Fastest option is RZDISK from the freeware disk.  But that's a fixed pattern.     	John    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:59:07 -0500 ! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> $ Subject: Re: Formatting hard disk(s)' Message-ID: <3DD1335B.979A1EE1@vcu.edu>   G There's also scsiexer from HP, that you can hook a scsi disk up to say, 7 a 386 and erase away... cheap, effective, but not fast.    jim    John Laird wrote:  > L > On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:41:24 -0500, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote: > 5 > >"Jurren Bouman" <jubo@euronet.nl> wrote in message 5 > >news:0122tu43fggipm31q3bbcqoiskcsfm4f8t@4ax.com... H > >> We have to clean the hard drives, and possible a raid-5, and removeI > >> all the data from the disks. How can we do this? It really has to be ! > >> something like DOS' "format"  > >>K > >> Hardware is: Digital AlphaServer 1000 4/200 and the installed software  > >> is OpenVMS 6.2. > >>I > >> Is there a free tool somewhere because I don't have any boot CD's or  > >> anything else..;-(  > >> > >  > >It's part of VMS. > >  > >$ INIT/ERASE device-name: > J > Last time I checked the documentation for this, it seemed to suggest theL > volume was marked erase-on-allocate (my words), not that anything happenedL > at INIT time.  A better bet would be ANAL/MEDIA/EXERCISE - you can specifyM > the write pattern, so several passes with complete bit-flips ought to erase ? > any possibility of a "shadow" of the original data remaining.  > F > Fastest option is RZDISK from the freeware disk.  But that's a fixed
 > pattern. >  >         John   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:57:28 -0500 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> $ Subject: Re: Formatting hard disk(s)/ Message-ID: <ut2g891v1sdme8@news.supernews.com>   A "John Laird" <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message 2 news:q6b2tuss48ja3k03rnhn77aje65l51pjbs@4ax.com...L > On Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:41:24 -0500, "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> wrote: > 5 > >"Jurren Bouman" <jubo@euronet.nl> wrote in message 5 > >news:0122tu43fggipm31q3bbcqoiskcsfm4f8t@4ax.com... H > >> We have to clean the hard drives, and possible a raid-5, and removeI > >> all the data from the disks. How can we do this? It really has to be ! > >> something like DOS' "format"  > >>K > >> Hardware is: Digital AlphaServer 1000 4/200 and the installed software  > >> is OpenVMS 6.2. > >>I > >> Is there a free tool somewhere because I don't have any boot CD's or  > >> anything else..;-(  > >> > >  > >It's part of VMS. > >  > >$ INIT/ERASE device-name: > J > Last time I checked the documentation for this, it seemed to suggest theL > volume was marked erase-on-allocate (my words), not that anything happenedL > at INIT time.  A better bet would be ANAL/MEDIA/EXERCISE - you can specifyG > the write pattern, so several passes with complete bit-flips ought to  erase ? > any possibility of a "shadow" of the original data remaining.  > F > Fastest option is RZDISK from the freeware disk.  But that's a fixed
 > pattern. >   L The current documentation clearly states that INIT/ERASE physically destroysL data by writing over it with a data security erase (DSE) operation.  You may  be thinking of SET VOLUME/ERASE.  L INIT/ERASE is clearly good enough for anyone who would ask, in a news group, how to erase data.  :)   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Nov 2002 19:00:04 -00003 From: lcs Mixmaster Remailer <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu>   Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day6 Message-ID: <20021112190004.18710.qmail@nym.alias.net>  % >> I'll bite, whut's fondavision?????   1 >Terry's one of those people who think the Entire , >American Media Conglomerate is solely aimed >at spreading Lefty lies.   ; That is a gross over simplification.  But they do of course ; show their bias.  Read Bernie Goldberg's book for instance. B Listen to comments from all the major anchors in the last electionC "stunning Republican upset".  What's so stunning about it.  Because D they and their leftist friends all vote democratic , it is stunning?  + >In fact, most of the entire American Media , >Conglomerate is owned by five corporations:  %   o Ruper Murdoch's "News Corp" (Fox)    o AOL/Time-Warner (CNN, etc.)    o Disney/Capital Cities (ABC) !   o General Electric (NBC, MSNBC) "   o Sumner Redstone's Viacom (CBS)    , >Of these five corporations, only Viacom has$ >any liberal tendencies whatsoever.   : That is a lie.  Fondavision is CNN (Clinton News Network) < is Ted Turner for all intents and purposes.  Catholic hating Ted:  H "I was looking at this woman and I was trying to figure out what was on G her forehead. At first I thought you were in the [Seattle] earthquake.  J I realized you&#8217;re just Jesus freaks." - Ted Turner ridiculing Roman $ Catholic CNN employees March 8, 2001    < Disney.  They of the gay bent, how more liberal can you get?  C Trips for 280 fifth-graders to Walt Disney World and other Orlando  C theme parks on June 5 were rescheduled, apparently because several  ? parents complained the date coincided with an annual gay pride  
 gathering.  B "The two things don't go hand in hand," said Rhonda James, one of F several parents who called the school district and SeaWind Elementary  earlier this week to complain.  B "It's not what our children need to see at that young age," added H another parent, who did not want to be identified. "I've heard stories. G There's a lot more that goes on besides hand-holding. It's pretty bad."     : Maybe too many go rounds of hide the pickle?  One wonders.    C NBC.  Matt and Katie noted liberals and Phil Donahue cronies.  Name > a single conservative moment on the Today show.  Won't happen.     > But Terry 0 > thinks he's being witty when he referes to CNN. > as "Fondavision". News item: Ted Turner sold/ > CNN quite some time ago and Jane Fonda hasn't ! > had much to say about it since.   9 A classic nickname and one that should stick for a while.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:56:10 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day2 Message-ID: <y9OcnVV6-MV790ygXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>  @ "lcs Mixmaster Remailer" <mix@anon.lcs.mit.edu> wrote in message0 news:20021112190004.18710.qmail@nym.alias.net... >  > ' > >> I'll bite, whut's fondavision?????  > 3 > >Terry's one of those people who think the Entire . > >American Media Conglomerate is solely aimed > >at spreading Lefty lies.  > = > That is a gross over simplification.  But they do of course = > show their bias.  Read Bernie Goldberg's book for instance. D > Listen to comments from all the major anchors in the last election< > "stunning Republican upset".  What's so stunning about it.  H That 43% of those voting were Republicans and only 36% Democrats.  GivenI that difference (and anything like an even split among Independents), the # outcome itself was hardly stunning.   H My own interpretation is that the rank-and-file Dems just didn't respondH well to the past year-plus of me-too-ism in the 'war against terrorism',F including gross abuses of power both internationally and domestically.G After all, if the Administration is going to call the tune anyway, what J difference does it make whether it's a Republican or a Democratic CongressH that sings it?  So they stayed home, while the Reps came out in force toJ support their Commander in Chief in his carefully-orchestrated war on IraqC (I noticed just today how quick commentators were to present Iraq's F connection to 9/11 as established fact, now that Iraq has rejected theA recent U.N. resolution bullied through by Dubya and his minions).    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:34:33 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>   Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day* Message-ID: <Zj8A9.7315$QZ.3085@sccrnsc02>  1 "Dave Gudewicz" <k9jdk@arrl.net> wrote in message 3 news:3dd06d27$0$17644$1dc6e903@news.corecomm.net... I > I took the day off..... first time I've done that and I am a veteran as  you & > are Terry.  Hope you had  a fun day.  G Well, actually, I was fixing to drive from DFW to ABQ, had a flat tire, I discovered that all my tires were corrupted (damned strange with way less J than 10K miles and three years use) so I celebrated the day by getting newL tires. Very little mention of Veteran's Day in the paper and the traditionalK (CBS, NBC, ABC, FondaVision) media, other than the lack of mail delivery it  was pretty much a non-event.  J Just as well. Veteran's day 1970 and 1971 were a lot more eventful. Things; were a bit warm in Nha Trang and Pleiku back in those days!    cheers,    terry s    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:50:39 +0100 (CET) % From: Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com>   Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day8 Message-ID: <a828991441a839a21201813a7fba38f6@dizum.com>   >>4 >> >Terry's one of those people who think the Entire/ >> >American Media Conglomerate is solely aimed  >> >at spreading Lefty lies. >>> >> That is a gross over simplification.  But they do of course> >> show their bias.  Read Bernie Goldberg's book for instance.H >> Listen to comments from all the major anchors in the last election   H >> "stunning Republican upset".  What's so stunning about it.            > C > That 43% of those voting were Republicans and only 36% Democrats. > > Given that difference (and anything like an even split among8 > Independents), the outcome itself was hardly stunning.  > Nice theory as to why, but that isn't the point.  The point is? the talking heads act so surprised.  They act so surprised that B most of their pre-election polling totally missed it.  And when itC happens, it is a big surprise.  Totally upsetting their view of the  world.  Their very biased view  B >My own interpretation is that the rank-and-file Dems just didn't  respond ? > well to the past year-plus of me-too-ism in the 'war against   terrorism', H > including gross abuses of power both internationally and domestically.E > After all, if the Administration is going to call the tune anyway,    A "Respond well"  What you are saying is they don't have any ideas.VE Many of the republican strategists and even James Carville point thatO= out.  The big election issue for the democrats this year was :F prescription drugs.  What you won't acknowledge is that the democraticE party is totally devoid of ideas.  But that is pretty much a fact and @ did not go unrecognized by the very librule James Carville.  The: finest democratic strategist out there.  It was wonderful.H Hearing Carville mutter the fact that the dems are idea and content freeH on nationwide television.  But we know they are intellectually bankrupt.  9 Little chance of the dems getting back to reality or evenU> getting a good idea.  The lady that is house whip is from San E Francisco.  Kingdom of the Pickle Hiders and all that is whacked out.a  ; A blunder electing her as her defeated dem opponent laments   G "You cannot get away from the fact that the battleground seats in this iC country are in swing, marginal, moderate and conservative areas,'' eF Frost said. "The question is, do we want to reflect the country or do 3 we simply want to reflect our own personal views?''   & Or the left coast pickle hider's view.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:25:45 GMTa$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day8 Message-ID: <00A16DF0.9D8ADCC3@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  c In article <3DD13652.1B53F5D5@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:i >Jim Agnew wrote:  >e% >> I'll bite, whut's fondavision?????  >e1 >Terry's one of those people who think the Entiren, >American Media Conglomerate is solely aimed >at spreading Lefty lies.v > + >In fact, most of the entire American Media , >Conglomerate is owned by five corporations: >d& >  o Ruper Murdoch's "News Corp" (Fox)  >  o AOL/Time-Warner (CNN, etc.)  >  o Disney/Capital Cities (ABC)" >  o General Electric (NBC, MSNBC)# >  o Sumner Redstone's Viacom (CBS)i >V >3, >Of these five corporations, only Viacom has- >any liberal tendencies whatsoever. But Terry / >thinks he's being witty when he referes to CNNc- >as "Fondavision". News item: Ted Turner soldr. >CNN quite some time ago and Jane Fonda hasn't  >had much to say about it since.  H Actually, while Atlant is usually quite correct in these things - and isL correct on media consolidation - it appears that Ted Turner's star has been J rising with Time-Warner/AOL as Steve Case's was dropping, and he may have K more to say about CNN than he did right after the merger.  And Jane Fonda's L influence over CNN, if any, probably dropped considerably after Ted and Jane broke up a couple of years ago.B   -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:11:46 -0500P2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day. Message-ID: <3DD13652.1B53F5D5@mindspring.com>   Jim Agnew wrote:  $ > I'll bite, whut's fondavision?????  0 Terry's one of those people who think the Entire+ American Media Conglomerate is solely aimedk at spreading Lefty lies.  * In fact, most of the entire American Media+ Conglomerate is owned by five corporations:l  %   o Ruper Murdoch's "News Corp" (Fox)a   o AOL/Time-Warner (CNN, etc.)    o Disney/Capital Cities (ABC)e!   o General Electric (NBC, MSNBC)c"   o Sumner Redstone's Viacom (CBS)    + Of these five corporations, only Viacom hasb, any liberal tendencies whatsoever. But Terry. thinks he's being witty when he referes to CNN, as "Fondavision". News item: Ted Turner sold- CNN quite some time ago and Jane Fonda hasn't  had much to say about it since.m  * At my house, we watch CBC and Auntie Beeb.   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:28:17 -0500t2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day. Message-ID: <3DD13A30.6F926B4D@mindspring.com>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:e  , > In fact, most of the entire American Media- > Conglomerate is owned by five corporations:r >d' >   o Ruper Murdoch's "News Corp" (Fox)s! >   o AOL/Time-Warner (CNN, etc.)o! >   o Disney/Capital Cities (ABC)m# >   o General Electric (NBC, MSNBC) $ >   o Sumner Redstone's Viacom (CBS)  2 You can actually get a sense of just how "liberal"- or "conservative" the media is by watching ans1 anti-war protest for yourself and then seeing how # the media covers it after-the-fact.s  / For example, even though several hundreds of uso, (maybe one or two thousand?) marched through- the streets of Boston on Sunday, October 6th,f1 completely surrounding Faneiul Hall at one point,-3 you did not read word one about us in the "liberal"a2 Boston Globe. The story finally made it into print1 as their Metro Editor was quoted by the OmbudsmanM1 as saying he hadn't heard it was going to happen.-  1 Wrong. Maybe he didn't know, but the right people81 did. I called the City Desk ahead of time myself.w/ I even had the phone bill to prove it (which he( demanded to see, BTW).     Another example:  - On Saturday, October 26th, when about 150K ofA/ us gathered in Washington DC for a peace march, , the New York Times (another "liberal" paper,/ maybe "the liberal" paper) ran an initial storyd- that said something like 10,000 showed up. It * was only a day or so later that the number# mysteriously increased to 100,000+.-  , NPR, another media outlet pilloried as being2 liberal ran the same pair of numbers. They finally# ran an on-air apology on Wednesday.=     Another example:  / Election night 2000, Jack Welch, CEO of GE (and0, thus, NBC's top banana) was widely quoted as- having asked the NPC Newsroom folks "How muchi2 do I have to pay you to call this thing for Bush?"    - The media is only as liberal as the Corporate  Conservatives who own it.w  3 "The Liberal Media" is another Right-Wing "big lie"e" spread to you by Right Wing liars.   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:46:17 -0500?* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day2 Message-ID: <h8-dnV4QR8hIPUygXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>  2 "Nomen Nescio" <nobody@dizum.com> wrote in message2 news:a828991441a839a21201813a7fba38f6@dizum.com...   ...j  C > >My own interpretation is that the rank-and-file Dems just didn't 	 > respondM@ > > well to the past year-plus of me-too-ism in the 'war against
 > terrorism', J > > including gross abuses of power both internationally and domestically.F > > After all, if the Administration is going to call the tune anyway, >iC > "Respond well"  What you are saying is they don't have any ideas.nG > Many of the republican strategists and even James Carville point thate > out.  F And if you'll reread what I wrote you'll find that I pointed it out as> well - but only as it applies to the Congressional leadership.  8   The big election issue for the democrats this year wasH > prescription drugs.  What you won't acknowledge is that the democratic# > party is totally devoid of ideas.e  E Wrong.  A lot of its *leadership* appears to be pretty dim these dayshL (actually, I suspect they're less out-right dim than fixated on questionableK interpretations of polling data rather than willing to lead), but the partyRH as a whole still stands for most of what it has stood for for as long asC I've known it (plus a few extras like fiscal responsibility that it J appropriated when the Republican Party abdicated its traditional stands inK those areas):  aggressive protection of the individual rights guaranteed by I the Constitution, government responsibility for making sure that the lessuK fortunate among us don't drop through the cracks, responsible internationali> behavior (vs. the cowboy tactics of the Reagan and the currentJ administrations - though Johnson's excesses in prosecuting the Vietnam warK were a conspicuous exception), and a progressive tax system that taxes most"= those who derive the most financial benefit from our society.n  K Yes, it's good to have the Republicans around as well to keep the Democrats G honest.  The main problem since 9/11 is that the Democrats haven't beencJ doing their job to keep the Republicans honest:  they've let them run awayI with the agenda, and a lot of that agenda is hostile to both domestic andeK international ideals that should receive far more consideration.  But there-K have been individual voices raised (Leahy of Vermont on civil liberties and0L Wellstone on the Iraq resolution being the only major ones I've noticed thatJ carried any real weigh, unfortunately), and if the party knows what's goodF for it it will pay considerably more attention to such voices over the coming two years.-   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 02:32:40 GMT.( From: "Ken Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day> Message-ID: <cRiA9.57456$ku2.3870097@twister.southeast.rr.com>   ----- Original Message -----4 From: "Atlant Schmidt" <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> >e5 > "The Liberal Media" is another Right-Wing "big lie" $ > spread to you by Right Wing liars. >s    - Suggested reading: Bias, by Bernard Goldberg.uL http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261901/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/$ 103-0237555-8519032?v=glance&s=books (watch line wrap)l   Book Description from Amazon: J Think the media are biased? CONSERVATIVES HAVE BEEN crying foul for years,J but now a veteran CBS reporter has come forward to expose how liberal biasL pervades the mainstream media. Even if you've suspected your nightly news isF slanted to the left, it's far worse than you think. Breaking ranks andF naming names, Emmy Award-winning broadcast journalist Bernard GoldbergA reveals a corporate news culture in which the close-mindedness isaL breathtaking, journalistic integrity has been pawned to liberal opinion, andI "entertainment" trumps hard news every time. In his three decades at CBS,tG Goldberg repeatedly voiced his concerns to network executives about theaG often one-sided nature of the news coverage. But no one listened to hisiE complaints-or if they did listen, they did nothing about the problem.uL Finally, Goldberg had no choice but to blow the whistle on his own industry,I to break the code of silence that pervades the news business. Bias is the@L result. As the author reveals, "liberal bias" doesn't mean simply being hardJ on Republicans and easy on Democrats. Real media bias is the result of howK those in the media see the world-and their bias directly affects how we alln see the world.     --   Kenneth Farmer http://www.Tru64.org http://www.OpenVMS.org http://www.LinuxHPC.org    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:49:16 -0500t( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day, Message-ID: <3DD1A18C.3060703@tsoft-inc.com>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:5   > Jim Agnew wrote: >  > $ >>I'll bite, whut's fondavision????? >> > 2 > Terry's one of those people who think the Entire- > American Media Conglomerate is solely aimedh > at spreading Lefty lies.    Q And Atlant appears to be a liberal that tries to make liberal ideas appear to be u mainstream.   I Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam during the war, as an anti-war activist.o  Q Some POWs, normally quite dirty, underfed, and mistreated, were dressed up for a lH meeting with Hanoi Jane.  One tried to pass her a message, as part of a = handshake, I believe.  She handed it to the Notrh Vietnamese.s  O These poor POWs trusted her, regardless of her purpose for being there, to get 1P their message out.  She betrayed this trust, choosing instead to treat the POWs L as criminals and sub-human, etc.  There were severe beatings because of the 5 message, and at least one POW died from the beatings.   Q This was all revealed by the survivors after returning home.  I'm not sure where l3 to find the info, and am not going looking tonight.0  H The bottom line, Jane betrayed her countrymen, some who might have also Q disagreed with the war, and were in a bad situation.  At least one death occured fO as a direct result of her actions.  I'm assuming that she worshipped the North eM Vietnam propaganda more than any truth, and didn't want any message from the u POWs to get out.  P If I was ever in a position to do so, I would gather depositions from the POWs, Q and if they supported such an action, I would bring her to trial for treason.  I -L doubt that I would be alone in this desire.  It would not be because of her M beliefs, but because of the harm done to helpless POWs.  If she really cared gO about people, she would have cared about the POWs.  A better action would have aP been to ask the North Vietnamese to release some of the POWs to return with her.   Dave   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 03:48:46 GMTo$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day8 Message-ID: <00A16E0C.FA02BA04@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  i In article <cRiA9.57456$ku2.3870097@twister.southeast.rr.com>, "Ken Farmer" <kfarmer@openvms.org> writes:v >----- Original Message -----e5 >From: "Atlant Schmidt" <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>h >>6 >> "The Liberal Media" is another Right-Wing "big lie"% >> spread to you by Right Wing liars.c >> >e >e. >Suggested reading: Bias, by Bernard Goldberg.M >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895261901/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/ % >103-0237555-8519032?v=glance&s=books  >(watch line wrap)    L Suggested debunking: http://www.dailyhowler.com/h011002_2.shtml and the next' four articles in the 2001-2002 archive.s  L Then head over to the 2002 archive and read everything with "Coulter" in theN title; Bob Somersby actually checks her footnotes and discovers how bogus they are.  E Executive summary: __Bias__ and __Slander__ are full of what can most0, charitably be described as "obvious errors."  D -- Alan (who really, really doesn't want to have this argument here)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 05:14:36 GMT  From: lbohan@dbc..spamless..com   Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day8 Message-ID: <dcn3tu8cvoj47m8pcorm0m5ne37i4arpg3@4ax.com>  7 >>"David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message,( >>news:3DD1A18C.3060703@tsoft-inc.com... >>...nK >>Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam during the war, as an anti-war activist.S > >...  7 At least some parts, but not all, of this oft-repeated n# Hanoi Jane story are urban legend. i   See:  0 'Hanoi Jane' Email Rumors Blend Fact and Fiction9 http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa110399.htm    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:39:14 -0500a* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day2 Message-ID: <_6KcnQb5aMjRJkygXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>  5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message & news:3DD1A18C.3060703@tsoft-inc.com...   ...   K > Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam during the war, as an anti-war activist.y  
 Good for her.c   > L > Some POWs, normally quite dirty, underfed, and mistreated, were dressed up for aiI > meeting with Hanoi Jane.  One tried to pass her a message, as part of as? > handshake, I believe.  She handed it to the Notrh Vietnamese.   I Let's see:  she's there as a guest of the North Vietnamese government.  ARK POW attempts to involve her in subversion of that government (by giving hernK a message that he's clearly not supposed to - otherwise, it would have been: done in the open).  F Now, leaving aside whatever concerns there might have been for her ownL safety had she kept the message, by accepting it depending upon its contentsH she could well have been betraying the ideals that took her there in the first place.  L It's hard to put one's emotions aside when considering such a situation, letI alone see the *other* viewpoint.  Perhaps too hard for you to do at all -mH but it doesn't change the fact that there *is* another, valid viewpoint.   >oL > These poor POWs trusted her, regardless of her purpose for being there, to gete. > their message out.  She betrayed this trust,  I So what?  She didn't ask for their trust, nor want it.  If I trust you toa1 give me $10,000, are you obligated by that trust?e  #  choosing instead to treat the POWs  > as criminals  8 Their act *was* a criminal act, under the circumstances.   > and sub-human,  L You'll really have to provide some evidence that she treated, or considered,= them as sub-human:  that sounds like your prejudice speaking.e  0  etc.  There were severe beatings because of the7 > message, and at least one POW died from the beatings.   I Which would not have happened had they not attempted to do something that L was prohibited (as they knew well).  You can place the blame on them, or youG can place the blame on treatment for the offense that we would considereK excessive (though our judgement of what constitutes excessive punishment is.J not the only possible valid one).  But don't place it on the bearer of the message.   >eL > This was all revealed by the survivors after returning home.  I'm not sure wherea5 > to find the info, and am not going looking tonight.  >d0 > The bottom line, Jane betrayed her countrymen,  C Under circumstances where it would have been illegal, and from some' viewpoints unethical, not to.m    some who might have alsol6 > disagreed with the war, and were in a bad situation.  G Once again, blame the responsible party - in this case, Lyndon Johnson:<I he's the reason they were where they were, in the situation they were in.-  J Too many Americans seem to be willing to allow their government to use ourJ military in the field as hostages to support its viewpoint.  The fact thatH we may have committed troops to action does *not* eliminate the right to dissent.     At least one death occured$ > as a direct result of her actions.  I Too bad, but her actions were neither criminal nor dishonorable under theo2 circumstances - when viewed from a neutral stance.  ,   I'm assuming that she worshipped the North) > Vietnam propaganda more than any truth,g  L Your beef seems to be that she did not buy into American propaganda.  Again,1 don't assume that you have any monopoly on truth.f  %  and didn't want any message from theN > POWs to get out.  K See above:  there's no indication that she didn't want *any* message to gets" out, just not a surreptitious one.   >eK > If I was ever in a position to do so, I would gather depositions from theM POWs,.F > and if they supported such an action, I would bring her to trial for treason.  L I don't know what constitutes treason in such a situation:  it was in no wayL direct action against the U.S, but rather the action dictated by the laws ofJ a country with which we were at war.  And if it was treasonous, as long asH it was taken in the pursuit of her beliefs I don't see any ethical/moral? problem with it, though I do believe she should be accountable.a     I2I > doubt that I would be alone in this desire.  It would not be because ofC her>9 > beliefs, but because of the harm done to helpless POWs.>  K There you go again.  They brought it upon themselves, and their captors mayrL be criticized for excessive reaction, but *her* actions weren't dishonorableJ (even if they were treasonous - not that I'm accepting that point:  law is0 often at odds with responsibility and/or honor).     If she really careda4 > about people, she would have cared about the POWs.  L I don't know if she did or didn't:  she could still have cared without being. willing to be an accomplice against her hosts.  C And, of course, she was rather young at the time.  Beliefs are very J black-and-white then (of course, your response proves that for some people they stay that way).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 01:20:39 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day2 Message-ID: <sCWdnRncms6sckygXTWc3g@metrocast.net>  , <lbohan@dbc..spamless..com> wrote in message2 news:dcn3tu8cvoj47m8pcorm0m5ne37i4arpg3@4ax.com...9 > >>"David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagem* > >>news:3DD1A18C.3060703@tsoft-inc.com... > >>...oC > >>Jane Fonda went to North Vietnam during the war, as an anti-war 	 activist.h > > >... >c8 > At least some parts, but not all, of this oft-repeated$ > Hanoi Jane story are urban legend. >a > See: > 2 > 'Hanoi Jane' Email Rumors Blend Fact and Fiction; > http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa110399.htmn  J Thanks - guess I shouldn't have just accepted the story at face value, butF while I don't always agree with Dave I do tend to assume that he knowsK whereof he speaks (which may well be the same kind of trust that caused him-3 to pass on the story as true without verifying it).2  K But I stand by my defense of the actions she apparently didn't commit:  "MynE country, right or wrong" is not an obligation but (at least in *this*rA country) a choice (and I happen to believe an irresponsible one).3   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:21:22 +0000i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>h Subject: Re: HP Advocacy Site 8 Message-ID: <t332tusovaesrgrvvflba3er5dncanvjel@4ax.com>  F On 12 Nov 2002 06:40:46 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:  O >In article <Pb_z9.2049$ME6.1292@rwcrnsc53>, "Tom M" <kryios@attbi.com> writes: M >> A JDBC server/driver for RMS or C-ISAM attempts to make a group of indexed O >> files look like a database.  Real applications that use indexed files access O >> files independently and merge them in the program logic (like in COBOL where(N >> indexed file access is natural and part of the language).  There is a wholeM >> lot of plumbing required to serve a group of indexed files, make them look<N >> like a database (perform joins, etc), and perform anywhere near reasonably. >> .K >> From the description of the third party product, it appears that it does>I >> exactly that, works with indexed file systems on various platforms andsB >> allows you to perform joins across platforms.  If you need thisM >> functionality, this product seems ideal.  Why would a layered product from O >> HP be any better?  Is someone hoping that HP would bundle a DBMS with VMS at J >> no cost?  Unlikely, but if they are going to do that (again), there are >> others I would prefer.o >hD >   So all they really need is a Java API to Datatrieve?  Datatrieve) >   could make anything look like a DBMS.   D The thing is HP *does* bundle some of Attunity Connect (formerly ISGD Navigator) with VMS. But strangely they don't bundle any real usableC *native* functionality. There are ODBC and JDBC modules for RMS but C they are *not* bundled. Only the Oracle driver is bundled. I really F can't figure out why HP bundle an Oracle driver but not an RMS driver.  < http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/products/ips/attunity/ -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:24:50 +0000'' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyk Subject: Re: HP Advocacy Site . Message-ID: <3DD12B52.4070807@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:[ > In article <aqohvv$4ab$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>, david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb) writes:  > e >>In article <2QFmukf231oe@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:c >  > D >>>  Which is like asking for RMS support for your chocolate teapot.B >>>  JDBC requires more than what RMS offers or intended to offer. >>>o >>M >>It isn't often I agree with Andrew but if third-party Unix  C-ISAM productseI >>can supply JDBC connectors then there definitely should be an RMS JDBC I >>connector. >  >  > A >    IIRC someone else already posted that there is a third party 7 >    solution.  Andrew doesn't think that's acceptable.  >  >   1 That isn't what I think and it isn't what I said.   2 John Mcleans point was that Java is broken because+ it doesn't support all the features of RMS.   . My response was that there is a 3rd party JDBC* driver (CONNX for example) and that anyway/ it isnt the responsibility of a general purposet, language/runtime to supply support for every/ file access method under the Sun including RMS.   7 I also pointed out that it is really the responsibilitys8 of the provider of the file access technology to provide2 JDBC support, something that other vendors of file0 access technology do (C-ISAM being one example).  ) More CF's you are having a bit of a week.D   Regards1 Andrew Harrisone   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:40:10 +0000g' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancyb Subject: Re: HP Advocacy Site2. Message-ID: <3DD12EEA.3020902@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:Z > In article <3DCFC927.4020800@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes: >  >> >>Bob Koehler wrote: >>[ >>>In article <3DCF7D09.2090901@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy writes:a >>>d >>>s2 >>>>No another CF on your part, I complained about >>>>the lack of a JDBC for RMS.i >>>  >>>SE >>>   Which is like asking for RMS support for your chocolate teapot.>C >>>   JDBC requires more than what RMS offers or intended to offer.D >>>  >>9 >>The simple proof that you point isn't valid is that you . >>can get JDBC connectors for RMS from CONNX ? >  > J >    Yes, we've been over that.  So whats so wrong about it being a third D >    party product?  Why do YOU keep harping on getting HP to do it? >   5 How about support, cost and availability for a start,e3 its nice that a 3rd party does a JDBC connector andp. there is obviously a market. The CONNX product4 allows you to do multi-platform joins for example so1 you are paying for functionality which if all you.3 want is JDBC support for RMS index-sequential fileso is overkill.  7 So why not HP all the other major poviders this kind ofr7 technology do JDBC/ODBC connectors for their technology  so why don't HP ?n  0 How about justifying HP's non support for JDBC ?  3 Its always the same story, HPQ seem immune from the 0 need to invest in their platform in the same way that other vendors have to.:  1 This is a case in point but calls for Sun to portm- StarOffice to OpenVMS also fall into the sames	 category.0  . Either you want you favorite OS vendor to do a0 proper job of supporting their technology or you don't.  ) If you don't then continue to whine abouto+ Java not supporting RMS and Sun not portingt, StarOffice it will fall on deaf ears because0 there is no business case for Sun or the rest of" the Java community to support you.  , If you do then direct your complaints in the, right direction and get your OS vendor to do, a proper job, if you want proper support for1 RMS from Java then tell HP to behave like all thec* other suppliers of proprietary file access. methods and engineer their own JDBC connector.  . If you want StarOffice on OpenVMS then get HPQ' to fund the port like SGI have to IRIX.t  . And it isn't just me a number of other posters/ also agree entirely in case you hadn't noticed.i       > 9 >>Because John Mclean in this thread complained that Javab9 >>doesn't support RMS properly and thus RMS was the topic  >>under discussion.N >  > ( >    Obviously I disagree with him, too. >  > F >>I am tempted to be very rude here but it would really be much better7 >>if you tried reading the other articles in the thready5 >>instread of trying to reply out of context to mine.# >  > 2 >    Its just so much easier to push your buttons. >   2 Since you appear to be a minority of one on this I/ would have to suggest that the only buttons your/ are pressing is your own, keep it up though itsd
 fun to watch.    Regardsk Andrew Harrisonr   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:38:30 +0000i% From: Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net>n Subject: Re: HP Advocacy Siteh8 Message-ID: <86b2tusigvfav52kep5j2qs6uppr8jtqqv@4ax.com>  F On 12 Nov 2002 06:36:36 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:     >> I: >> The simple proof that you point isn't valid is that you/ >> can get JDBC connectors for RMS from CONNX ?t >eI >   Yes, we've been over that.  So whats so wrong about it being a third iC >   party product?  Why do YOU keep harping on getting HP to do it?l  D Possibly because HP do bundle a JDBC connector for Oracle 8i but notF RMS. I certaiinly consider this bizarre. Btw we actually have licensesE for Attunity connectors for RMS but had to spend real money for them. B We also had to spend real money for native connectivity to RDB andD DBMS because the combination of the free Oracle interface talking toE Oracle SQL/Net interface talking to an emulated Oracle database which-D was really RDB with transparent gateway to RMS, sucked big time. Why$ not just bundle the native driver!     >> u: >> Because John Mclean in this thread complained that Java: >> doesn't support RMS properly and thus RMS was the topic >> under discussion. >s' >   Obviously I disagree with him, too.. >aG >> I am tempted to be very rude here but it would really be much betters8 >> if you tried reading the other articles in the thread6 >> instread of trying to reply out of context to mine. >s1 >   Its just so much easier to push your buttons.    -- Alan   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:34:05 -0500i0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: HP Advocacy Siteu/ Message-ID: <3DD1499C.FF5AF20B@vl.videotron.ca>h   Bob Koehler wrote:A >    IIRC someone else already posted that there is a third partya7 >    solution.  Andrew doesn't think that's acceptable.   K And there were 3rd party products for TCPIP for a very long time before DECaK got its act together and made one of them "standard". During that time, VMS ' lost its leadership role in networking.r  L If HP/Digital were to officially sanction that 3rd party product and make itN part of VMS, then you'd see a LOT more use of that facility. But because it isN kept as an obscure 3rd party product, folks building JAVA apps on VMS wont useM such features and will stick to "vanilla" JAva which makes their applications J even slower since they don't make use of the stuff that gives VMS an edge.  K If HP/Digital wants to promote the use of JAVA as a "native" language, theyhM should provide the hooks. If they just want to claim that JAVA "also" runs oniJ VMS, then they don't need to care about integrating java in VMS, they just# want to implement the bare minimum.    ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:09:05 +0000 (UTC) + From: david20@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk (David Webb)i Subject: Re: HP Advocacy Sitee+ Message-ID: <aqrjkg$4t0$1@aquila.mdx.ac.uk>o  c In article <pLZevqk6norU@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: a >In article <86b2tusigvfav52kep5j2qs6uppr8jtqqv@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:a >>>eK >>>   Yes, we've been over that.  So whats so wrong about it being a third  E >>>   party product?  Why do YOU keep harping on getting HP to do it?g >>  G >> Possibly because HP do bundle a JDBC connector for Oracle 8i but notn >> RMS.  >,E >   Oracle is a DBMS.  It should ahve all the parts needed to support  >   a JDBC connector.. > E >   RMS is not a DBMS.  As others have pointed out you need more thannI >   RMS to support a JDBC.  So there's no such thing as "a JDBC connector D >   for RMS".  It has to be "a JDBC connector for RMS and some extra >   functions not present".m  9 Nor is C-ISAM but C-ISAM vendors produce JDBC connectors.nF Also from a previous post it would appear that Compaq bundles the JDBCL connector for Oracle 8i with Attunity (which is included in the VMS license)I but that Attunity also includes an RMS JDBC connector but you have to buyoH it as an extra. Hence HP/COMPAQ bundle a JDBC connector for a thirdpartyB product (Oracle) free but do not bundle one for their own product.  
 David Webb VMS and Unix team leader CCSS Middlesex University       >WD >   Since another vendor already has a product in the extruciatingly> >   small market there's no bussines case for HP to write one. >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:51:24 GMTl$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: HP Advocacy Siteo8 Message-ID: <00A16DF4.32F67C33@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  b In article <3DD1499C.FF5AF20B@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: >Bob Koehler wrote:sB >>    IIRC someone else already posted that there is a third party8 >>    solution.  Andrew doesn't think that's acceptable. > L >And there were 3rd party products for TCPIP for a very long time before DECL >got its act together and made one of them "standard". During that time, VMS( >lost its leadership role in networking. >iM >If HP/Digital were to officially sanction that 3rd party product and make its> >part of VMS, then you'd see a LOT more use of that facility.   H How do you know that?  As one example, while it really needed and wanted: JDBC-for-Rdb, my site has no need at all for JDBC-for-RMS.   >But because it isO >kept as an obscure 3rd party product, folks building JAVA apps on VMS wont usehN >such features and will stick to "vanilla" JAva which makes their applicationsK >even slower since they don't make use of the stuff that gives VMS an edge.m  O It just doesn't seem like you're getting the point of Java.  The whole point isBE to be cross-platform compatible.  Certainly the point of the VMS JAVAmO development effort is to make VMS an easy target for ports from other operatingwO systems (and this seems to have had some success).  To phrase that another way,dM the point of having Java on VMS is to give VMS access to a larger applicationc! portfolio of Java-based products.h  I The stuff that'll give VMS an edge is the stuff that isn't cross-platformcI compatible, and rewriting products ported from other platfroms to use it  J will slow downt the certification process and make it less likely that the vendors will bother.  O People who are writing applications to take advantage of VMS's unique features,4O especially for speed, shouldn't be using JAVA.   (They should be using FORTRAN,e@ like God intended.  Or C or PL/I or Basic or Cobol or some other! compiled-and-optimized language.)m     >nL >If HP/Digital wants to promote the use of JAVA as a "native" language, theyN >should provide the hooks. If they just want to claim that JAVA "also" runs onK >VMS, then they don't need to care about integrating java in VMS, they just $ >want to implement the bare minimum.  O Do you think JAVA is a "native" language anywhere?  It's the UCSD Pascal of ther 1990s, for heaven's sake.    -- Alan-   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:39:24 GMTi$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: HP Advocacy Sites8 Message-ID: <00A16DF2.8608B159@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  c In article <pLZevqk6norU@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:ta >In article <86b2tusigvfav52kep5j2qs6uppr8jtqqv@4ax.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:c >>> K >>>   Yes, we've been over that.  So whats so wrong about it being a third rE >>>   party product?  Why do YOU keep harping on getting HP to do it?  >> iG >> Possibly because HP do bundle a JDBC connector for Oracle 8i but noto >> RMS.  >uE >   Oracle is a DBMS.  It should ahve all the parts needed to support  >   a JDBC connector.b  J It does, of course, and not only that, Oracle provides one, so the bundledL Attunity on-platform product is now basically worthless.  It makes sense forN Oracle to provide one, of course, because they charge money for their DBMS and. will sell into more markets if they have JDBC.   >rE >   RMS is not a DBMS.  As others have pointed out you need more than I >   RMS to support a JDBC.  So there's no such thing as "a JDBC connectortD >   for RMS".  It has to be "a JDBC connector for RMS and some extra >   functions not present".e >eD >   Since another vendor already has a product in the extruciatingly> >   small market there's no bussines case for HP to write one. >A  L And is HP supposed to write one and bundle it for free with VMS, the way RMSJ comes?  The C-ISAM vendors have to do it because C-ISAM is their bread andL butter, and Unix customers will just move to an rdbms if they can't get whatL they want out of Isam files, in which case the C-ISAM people get less money.  > I think John McLean is right that the JAVA file i/o model is aK least-common-denominator Unix-oriented thing, and that Andrew is right that N it's not Sun's job to produce Java extensions for RMS.  But I don't think thatO means that HP is letting down the customer base by not spending their resources K on providing a JDBC interface to RMS files, when anybody who really, reallyg' needs it can but it from a third-party.   M (And I think the whole JDBC deal is a diversion from John's original problem, K which was that RMS access from Java was clumsy, slow, and awkward.  If Java F programs have to go through a JDBC layer and a SQL interpreter to do aK key-based lookup of an RMS file, that'll be clumsy, slow, and awkward too.)e   -- Alans   ------------------------------   Date: 12 NOV 2002 21:55:25 GMT4 From: karcher@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher)4 Subject: Re: HP Moving Tandem Maintenance Offshore ?6 Message-ID: <12NOV02.21552517@thuria.waisman.wisc.edu>  : In a previous article, GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com> wrote:  : ->I'm curious as to what would happen to ones savings when ->deflation takes place.    B Then "cash would king". The more you have the better off you'd be.E You'll need it to pay off your mortgage when the bank [which might be F running VMS] calls in the loan on your house as it's value sinks below the amount of the mortgage.   H Or, if you don't have debts, you can buy up property for next to nothingG at bank foreclosures and wait for it to go back up. If it does, and you H sell, you will have made lots of money. This is how many people got rich' during the US depression in the 1930's.e   --G -- Carl Karcher, Waisman Computing Services, Waisman Center, UW-Madisony9 --                  karcher.nomorespam@waisman.wisc.edu  r   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:46:26 -0800-" From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>4 Subject: Re: HP Moving Tandem Maintenance Offshore ?( Message-ID: <3DD15A92.AA6C8258@mist.com>   Jerry Leslie wrote:a > % > GreyCloud (cumulus@mist.com) wrote:I > : ? > : Hi Jerry.  It seems that economics are now turning toward as > : deflation cycle.= > : Your information of migration to offshore stopgap methodsh > : seem to confirm this.p > :t > Hi Wayne,t > G > Steven Roach, Morgan Stanley's chief economist, mentions that the low H > cost of IT services in Asia could be a factor on the downward pressure > of the price of services:s > D >    http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/021023/economy_usa_morganstanley_2.html( >    Morgan Stanley: Deflation Risk High >  >  ``Reuters > ( >    Morgan Stanley: Deflation Risk High% >    Wednesday October 23, 6:40 am ET  > H >    SINGAPORE (Reuters) - The risk of deflation in the United States isI >    high and rising, Morgan Stanley's chief economist Stephen Roach saidr >    on Wednesday. > I >    The goods sector in the U.S. is already in a deflationary cycle, and,@ >    the prices of services will fall as the sector becomes more> >    globalized, U.S.-based Roach told a seminar in Singapore. > J >    "As globalization spreads from goods to services, there is a case for@ >    the low inflation U.S. economy being hit with a post-bubble >    recession," he said.  > 6 >    "The case for U.S. deflation is high and rising." > K >    Roach said the United States was extremely open to global competition,lJ >    and a large proportion of its imported goods came from Asia, which is >    experiencing deflation. > H >    Global deregulation, surging cross-border mergers and acquisitions,J >    and the low cost of IT services in Asia could add to pressures on theJ >    prices of services. And with U.S. inflation already at a 48-year low,$ >    the risks were higher, he said. > J >    "The cushion we get from services is getting thinner and thinner, andJ >    in the context of the most intense deflationary cycle we have seen in; >    tradeable goods. This is why I worry about deflation."t > G >    On the risks of a double-dip recession in the United States, RoachrK >    said: "We came very close last spring with one percent growth, we willg0 >    probably come closer this (third) quarter." > H >    The risks were related to excesses in the U.S. economy, such as theJ >    low savings rate, a capacity overhang, a possible balance of paymentsJ >    crisis and the record level of debt among corporations and consumers. > < >    "The most lethal strain is debt deflation," Roach said. > K >    "What these restraints do is they simply inhibit the economy, it growscI >    slowly enough so that if a shock comes along we could easily go backa >    into recession."''d > K > In early 2001, Mr. Roach correctly predicted the recession we're in now..u > ? >    http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/3296285.htmiH >    Reuters Wire | 05/19/2002 | Doomsayers Ring Alarm Bells on Recovery >  >    [snip]h > K >   ``The odds of a double-dip in the U.S. economy are not nearly as low asoI >    you have been led to believe," warned Stephen Roach, chief economistg >    at Morgan Stanley.  > F >    He was a lone voice in predicting recession in early 2001 and forI >    months, has argued persistently that a return to recession is on thes
 >    way...''5 > E > The method for producing the unemployment rate is now questionable:  > C >    http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/021105/economy_employment_farms_2.htmlM- >    Odd Farm-Sector Surge Distorts Jobs Datad > J >  ``...The Department of Labor uses a monthly survey of 60,000 householdsN >    to compile the unemployment series, in contrast with the monthly payrollsE >    figures, which come from an established survey of around 350,000s >    businesses. > J >    In recent months the unemployment rate has diverged from the trend inK >    payrolls, dipping from 5.9 percent in June to 5.6 percent in September 0 >    before edging up to 5.7 percent last month. > I >    At the same time, payrolls growth has been muted at best, running at J >    levels which typically would be associated with a rise in the jobless >    rate...''  8 I'm curious as to what would happen to ones savings when deflation takes place.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:01:04 -0500t2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>4 Subject: Re: HP Moving Tandem Maintenance Offshore ?. Message-ID: <3DD16C10.2574812B@mindspring.com>   GreyCloud wrote:  : > I'm curious as to what would happen to ones savings when > deflation takes place.  - If you have savings and the banks don't fail,c0 deflation is good for you. Your constant dollars+ (that you've already earned and saved) willn' you buy more of those cheaper goods ande services tomorrow.  . If you have inflation, debts are good for you.' You get to borrow more-valuable dollarsa* today and pay them back with less-valuable dollars tomorrow.d  * Debt is, of course, deadly in deflationary. times. You're trying to pay back a (nominally)* constant-valued (or constant-payment) loan, with the fewer and fewer dollars that you'll be earning.   1 But we're all going to be educated in third-world<) economics real soon now anyway, thanks tot! "the adults now being in charge".0   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:22:51 -0800b" From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>4 Subject: Re: HP Moving Tandem Maintenance Offshore ?( Message-ID: <3DD1A96B.76A09B00@mist.com>   Carl Karcher wrote:f > < > In a previous article, GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com> wrote: > < > ->I'm curious as to what would happen to ones savings when > ->deflation takes place. > D > Then "cash would king". The more you have the better off you'd be.G > You'll need it to pay off your mortgage when the bank [which might berH > running VMS] calls in the loan on your house as it's value sinks below > the amount of the mortgage.  > J > Or, if you don't have debts, you can buy up property for next to nothingI > at bank foreclosures and wait for it to go back up. If it does, and youtJ > sell, you will have made lots of money. This is how many people got rich) > during the US depression in the 1930's.i >   ; Ah!  Thank you much.  I'll save this information for futuret9 keeping and hope for the best.  I have no debts.  Wife is : retired from the financial field, but she is seeing things8 that don't seem to add up correctly.  She's worried that< eventually there will be a major market crash in a couple of years.  Me... I don't know.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:20:15 -0800 " From: GreyCloud <cumulus@mist.com>4 Subject: Re: HP Moving Tandem Maintenance Offshore ?( Message-ID: <3DD1A8CF.BF6BB537@mist.com>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:f >  > GreyCloud wrote: > < > > I'm curious as to what would happen to ones savings when > > deflation takes place. > / > If you have savings and the banks don't fail, 2 > deflation is good for you. Your constant dollars- > (that you've already earned and saved) will ) > you buy more of those cheaper goods andt > services tomorrow. > 0 > If you have inflation, debts are good for you.) > You get to borrow more-valuable dollars-, > today and pay them back with less-valuable > dollars tomorrow.  > , > Debt is, of course, deadly in deflationary0 > times. You're trying to pay back a (nominally), > constant-valued (or constant-payment) loan. > with the fewer and fewer dollars that you'll
 > be earning.k > 3 > But we're all going to be educated in third-world-+ > economics real soon now anyway, thanks tod# > "the adults now being in charge".i >   3 That's what I figured.  I never went thru the greath; depression of the 30's to really know about these things. Ia< have no debt, but wife wants a new house.  I think I'll wait; a bit more before buying.  Of course it will be cash only. &8 The savings rates are terrible and I'm not sure there is4 really a safe place to put money other than T-bills.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:24:52 +0000i) From: Antonio Carlini <arcarlini@iee.org>e; Subject: Re: Identifying a MOP load client with DECnet/Plusv& Message-ID: <3DD18DC4.4080507@iee.org>   Paul Sture wrote:_F > So, does anyone know of a way using DECnet/Plus to get any more info) > on the source of the MOP load requests?o  9 SET HOST/MOP may well get you somewhere ... at least some-9 devices will give you a clue as to exactly what they are.b  7 I canot remember the Phase V equivalent of SURVEILLANCE 7 mode (but then I didn't use it often enough to remember % how to do it on Phase IV either ...).>  6 The chance are, however, that it is a terminal server.3 For most recent ones (even if they have loaded over  bootp ...) you can do 1 	SET H/MOP/CIRC=whatever/ADDRESS=ethernet-addressa7 then log in and see what the name is set to. If nothingg6 special is set and all your servers are DS700 or DS900! or whatever, serves you right :-)u   Antonior   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Nov 2002 15:07:10 -0800* From: zinser@decus.de (Martin P.J. Zinser)' Subject: Include problems with hp C/CXX:= Message-ID: <220d7b8e.0211121507.6150ecb1@posting.google.com>c   Hello,  E I am currently working on the VMS version of Xpdf 2.00 and one of the0B problems I did encounter concerns a change in behaviour of the C++B (and as an auxilliary observation the hp C) compiler as opposed to  earlier versions. To illustrate:   #include <iostream.h>, #include <X11/cursorfont.h>e #include <X11/xpm.h> int main(){o   cout << "C++ Hello World!\n";s }  a  ; does not compile anymore, since X11/xpm.h can not be found:    $ cxx test.cxx   #include <X11/xpm.h> ....................^m; %CXX-E-SRCFILNOOPEN, could not open source file "X11/xpm.h"o9 at line number 4 in file DISK$USER:[ZINSER.TMP]test.cxx;3u  6 %CXX-I-MESSAGE, 1 error detected in the compilation of "DISK$USER:[ZINSER.TMP]tew
 st.cxx;3".  ; Still dir finds both (the system and private) include fine:    $ dir/nohead/notrail x11:xpm.h X11ADD:[XPM.LIB]xpm.h;1o% $ dir/nohead/notrail x11:cursorfont.h ' SYS$COMMON:[DECW$INCLUDE]CURSORFONT.H;1   ? I admit my X11 definition is slightly more convoluted than the u@ "standard" one exactly to carter for non-hp delivered libraries 1 like Xpm and Xaw, to be exact it looks like this:t  
  $ sh log x11a3    "X11" = "$1$DKA0:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.DECW$INCLUDE.]"s (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)f         = "X11ADD"         = "X11ADD:[XPM.LIB]"         = "DECW$INCLUDE"> 1  "X11ADD" = "DSA0:[PUBLIC.XTOOLS.LIBS.]" (LNM$PROCESS_TABLE)E 1  "DECW$INCLUDE" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[DECW$INCLUDE]" (DECW$LOGICAL_NAMES)u1         = "SYS$SYSROOT:[DECW$INCLUDE.EXTENSIONS]"c.    "X11" = "DECW$INCLUDE" (DECW$LOGICAL_NAMES)E 1  "DECW$INCLUDE" = "SYS$SYSROOT:[DECW$INCLUDE]" (DECW$LOGICAL_NAMES)d1         = "SYS$SYSROOT:[DECW$INCLUDE.EXTENSIONS]"h  B In my defense I can say that it did work flawlessly with previous D versions of C++/hp C. So, is this a new "feature" of the compilers,  need I change the logical?  ! Any suggestions are most welcome!a  9 Versions involved: OpenVMS 7.3, C++  V6.5-004, C V6.5-001s   Greetings, Martinu  > P.S. I am aware that I could change the code to overcome this ; issue but would like to avoid that. It is most easy to get g? OpenVMS support into Unix programs if you can avoid cluttering  - the code with "ifdef VMS" all over the place.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:27:14 -0500i0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>2 Subject: Re: Installing VMS 7.3 on a MicroVAX 3400/ Message-ID: <3DD1E2A9.D78D8455@vl.videotron.ca>t   David W Davies wrote:nE > I'm trying to install VMS 7.3 on a MicroVAX 3400 using TK50 tapes. c  . A most excelent test of your patience ... :-)   2 > backup/image/verify mua0:vms073.b/save_set dia0: > H > It runs for a couple seconds and then comes back with an error message0 > saying "error opening dia0:[sysexe] and fails.  7 As Mr Dachtera said, the full error message would help.   < You might try backup/image/init/log mua0:vms073.b/save dia0:  D You will see if it fails on the first file or not (because of /LOG).  C > using  from the b/1, set  uafalternate 0 then cont but also fail.aF > Anyone out there with an idea would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.    K When you boot standalone backup, there is no authorisation, so you need not L worry. Have you tried booting from the same tape as the one containing the BM saveset ? As I recall, that tape contained the standalone backup as the firsts files.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:58:51 -0600n. From: David W Davies <dwd_davies2@sasktel.net>. Subject: Installing VMS 7.3 on a MicroVAX 34008 Message-ID: <u7j3tu41ajeble2ckuap09e1l5i3k9o4n8@4ax.com>  6 Hi all, I'm new to this newsgroup and have a question.  E I'm trying to install VMS 7.3 on a MicroVAX 3400 using TK50 tapes.  I.C boot from tape 2 (stand alone backup), change to the first tape andf> then attempt to transfer VMS073.B to the system disk using the following syntax:i  0 backup/image/verify mua0:vms073.b/save_set dia0:  F It runs for a couple seconds and then comes back with an error messageA saying "error opening dia0:[sysexe] and fails.  I have also triedfA using  from the b/1, set  uafalternate 0 then cont but also fail. D Anyone out there with an idea would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:50:49 +0200t$ From: "MikeR" <rechtman@tzora.co.il>2 Subject: Re: Installing VMS 7.3 on a MicroVAX 34005 Message-ID: <aqssjf$d38mj$1@ID-103225.news.dfncis.de>x  C I think the magic addition is the "/init" - or is that the default?  not near VMS right now...I Mike  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message/) news:3DD1E2A9.D78D8455@vl.videotron.ca...u > David W Davies wrote:cF > > I'm trying to install VMS 7.3 on a MicroVAX 3400 using TK50 tapes. > / > A most excelent test of your patience ... :-)l > 4 > > backup/image/verify mua0:vms073.b/save_set dia0: > >aJ > > It runs for a couple seconds and then comes back with an error message2 > > saying "error opening dia0:[sysexe] and fails. > 9 > As Mr Dachtera said, the full error message would help.o >0> > You might try backup/image/init/log mua0:vms073.b/save dia0: >jF > You will see if it fails on the first file or not (because of /LOG). >.E > > using  from the b/1, set  uafalternate 0 then cont but also fail.7H > > Anyone out there with an idea would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks. >o >iI > When you boot standalone backup, there is no authorisation, so you needF notwL > worry. Have you tried booting from the same tape as the one containing the B I > saveset ? As I recall, that tape contained the standalone backup as thea firstn > files.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:58:22 -0500/0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>/ Subject: Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbyee/ Message-ID: <3DD14F4C.C38D8AC2@vl.videotron.ca>a   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:H > Come on.  How could anyone not expect this.  Once you are the CEO of aL > company, being the #2 person is usually not what you want to be long term.  N But Curly wasn't *really* the CEO of Compaq. He was a temporary stand-in afterL Pfeiffer was ousted and was allowed to stay because nobody who was qualifiedF wanted the job. So Curly got lucky and was promoted above his "peter'sN principle". Now, had he proven himself at Compaq, he would have gained respect3 and recognition. But he ran Compaq into the ground.:  K His problem now is that he is still underqualified to hold the title of CEO B for a large corporation. And his record at Compaq isn't inspiring.  H > for incentives.  So, like him or hate him, can you be suprised if whenM > presented with the prospect of being the CEO of a highly visible company toa+ > "turn around" - that he wouldn't take it?b  M Correct. He can't be faulted for taking oopportunities which are presented todN him. And he has personally done well considering he now commands a paycheck inM the millions and separation packages in the tens of millions. He doesn't haveiK to worry about working to pay for food anymore. But he got there because heeJ was lucky, not because he was qualified. He was at the right place, at the8 right moment, with the right "friends" inside of Compaq.  M What I can't understand is why Worldcom would want Curly. Is that also a cases of nobody wanting the job ?i  N > Carly simply returns to her previous position.  That also doesn't sound like > a huge suprise.r  K Of course not. You always expect the "also-ran" to stay just long enough toaM complete the paperwork and then leave, leaving the CEO or the winning companya
 in charge.  L The issues isn't so much Curly leaving, but rather that he found another job; as CEO, especially of a prominent company such as Worldcom.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:15:21 -0500I0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>/ Subject: Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbyeh/ Message-ID: <3DD16F5D.89296A15@vl.videotron.ca>a   John McLean wrote:J > Compaq had to find someone else to take the job.  I recall that at leastH > one prime candidate withdrew when he discovered what the politics wereF > like, so Curly wasn't first choice and he wasn't even second choice.  L Ithink that they tried to get the CEO of Continental Airlines (also based in( Houston), but he was smart and declined.  F I recall that they had stated that they wanted to go "outside" to findN Pfreiffer's replacement. If that was the case, then Curly was never consideredG as a "candidate", until they gave up finding a candiate and changed hiso( "interim" position into a permanent one.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:16:56 -0500>; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>e/ Subject: Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbyew$ Message-ID: <3dd19a41$1@news.si.com>   >Good riddance to bad rubbish.  K However, it sort of scares me.  The Brits that own Smiths Aerospace decidedII that a little thing like bankruptcy wouldn't deter them from finalizing a.G global agreement with Worldcom to provide our world-wide WAN.  Now thathI Curly is looking to be in charge, I suspect we'll soon be getting nothingn5 but a busy signal or, more probably , a reorder tone.  -- rA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comlA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comt= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventh< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:38:51 GMTs5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>e/ Subject: Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbye 2 Message-ID: <L0bA9.32$FR3.850113@news.cpqcorp.net>  % Terry C. Shannon wrote in message ...0 > > >"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message) >news:3DCFF8D2.4831CD5@vl.videotron.ca...0) >> Alan Greig quoted an HP press release: L >> > "We've reached a natural transition point. Michael made a commitment to >see the >> > merger through, >>J >> Funny. I seem to recall that prior to May 7th, Curly and Carly were set toH >> have a long term relationship since they were so compatible and spend many2 >> years building HP into a formidable enterprise. >>? >> But now, they admit that Curly stayed only for a few months.p >>3 >> > The president's position will not be replaced.t >>I >> In essence, Curly was given an office/secretary and told to look for aa >job.  >aI >That very well could be. Ken Olsen used to do the same thing. Perhaps MCeH >wanted to be the Big Dog, not a sidekick. Whatever, had it been me, I'd haveH >looked a little longer and harder for a job that MC apparently did. ;-} >v  F Come on.  How could anyone not expect this.  Once you are the CEO of aJ company, being the #2 person is usually not what you want to be long term.J It's also been just over 6 months from the merger, which probably also hasL something to do with a minimum time commitment to stay on for the transitionF for incentives.  So, like him or hate him, can you be suprised if whenK presented with the prospect of being the CEO of a highly visible company tou) "turn around" - that he wouldn't take it?   L Carly simply returns to her previous position.  That also doesn't sound like a huge suprise.y  9 No conspiracy.  No in-fighting.  Nothing but the obvious.    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:20:53 +0100e1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch> / Subject: Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbyer5 Message-ID: <3DD15494.A2849FA3@swissonline.delete.ch>u   JF Mezei wrote:t >  > Fred Kleinsorge wrote:J > > Come on.  How could anyone not expect this.  Once you are the CEO of aN > > company, being the #2 person is usually not what you want to be long term. > P > But Curly wasn't *really* the CEO of Compaq. He was a temporary stand-in afterN > Pfeiffer was ousted and was allowed to stay because nobody who was qualified > wanted the job.   A After Pfeiffer departed Compaq took a few months to appoint CurlyoD because they really wanted Carly.  She got her appointment at HP andH Compaq had to find someone else to take the job.  I recall that at leastF one prime candidate withdrew when he discovered what the politics wereD like, so Curly wasn't first choice and he wasn't even second choice.     John   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:37:37 -0500I0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>/ Subject: Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbyee/ Message-ID: <3DD1C8FF.A10F4554@vl.videotron.ca>n   Brian Tillman wrote:M > However, it sort of scares me.  The Brits that own Smiths Aerospace decidediK > that a little thing like bankruptcy wouldn't deter them from finalizing ahI > global agreement with Worldcom to provide our world-wide WAN.  Now thatrK > Curly is looking to be in charge, I suspect we'll soon be getting nothing 7 > but a busy signal or, more probably , a reorder tone.1  N If only your company could add a clause to the contract "this contract will be5 nulled and void if Worldcom hires Michael Cappellas".a  L Or at least insist that that when MCI is spun off as the only surviving partM of Worldcom, that your contract goes to MCI (that is that part that had a lot  of VMS).   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:51:27 -0500 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>/ Subject: Re: Looking for contract opportunities . Message-ID: <3DD1075F.69E3B392@mindspring.com>   John Travell wrote:   C > Snap... (just catching up on old news, I got 14,000+ posts when Iv > subscribed!) >uJ > HP are just making me redundant. Looking for any valid source of income." > 25 years with Digital/Compaq/HP.  / Please also keep in mind that any competent VMS . programmer can easily fit into the Unix world,- especially if you were already using C, Perl,t
 and the like.a  1 You may not have the exact right keywords on yourb- resume/CV, but a well-motivated, knowledgable!  employer can still tell quality.   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:20:00 -0500s0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>< Subject: Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS/ Message-ID: <3DD17074.F896AC20@vl.videotron.ca>i   Charlie Hammond wrote:H > I have seen one case in which STARLET (the LINKER_LIBRARIES sub-optionK > of the PROGRAMMING option) was DEselected -- but STARLET.OLB was present. 6 > That is at least part of the impetus to change this.  J Ok, pardon my ignorance, but are there really applications that are linkedF against Starlet.OLB ? Doesn't the linker, by default, link against theH shareable image ? Is that image part of the base or part of the optionalL components ? If the two are separate, then they should be together to ensure they are the same "version".  N In VMSINSTAL terms, my only concern is keeping the "B" saveset small.  (or its equivalent with PCSI stuff).  I As a suggestion: if you move some optional components to the BASE system,tM perhaps in the "OPTIONAL" section, you could provide an option to delete some'+ of those files and compress the libraries ?c  N (i.e. instead of "do you want to install" questions, you would have "those are1 installed by default, do you want them removed ?"    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Nov 2002 21:44:41 GMT' From: ruben@CCNMR.MIT.EDU (David Ruben)g< Subject: Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS@ Message-ID: <3dd17649$0$3950$b45e6eb0@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu>  n In article <TBcA9.35$X14.1362034@news.cpqcorp.net>, hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond) writes:5 >In article <bgQD44Gmbccs@eisner.encompasserve.org>, -0 >Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > > >>I blindly install help modules from both VMSINSTAL and PCSI,A >>never considering that the system help library might not exist. @ >>While the fact that I have not gotten complaints for any of my@ >>kits, you might check to ensure both VMSINSTAL and PCSI deftly@ >>handle the absence of those libraries.  If not, you have proofF >>people are not installing in the absence of the system help library. >iH >I have seen one case in which STARLET (the LINKER_LIBRARIES sub-option J >of the PROGRAMMING option) was DEselected -- but STARLET.OLB was present.5 >That is at least part of the impetus to change this.    Careful.  J Is the merging of the currently existing files with the new files going to	 continue?o  H I have no problem with making the files part of base VMS. I also have noF problem with overwriting IMAGELIB or STARLET. I do have a problem withD overwriting HELPLIB. I routinely put help modules from freeware intoF HELPLIB and would prefer not to have to repeat the process everytime IA upgrade. Larry said that he blindly installs into HELPLIB. If thenA file were to be overwritten his customers would have to reinstalle after every upgrade.  E There are, of course, workarounds, but after seeing explicit messagesa? for so many years that merging was about to occur, I've come toc rely on that behavior.   David Rubeno   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:36:18 GMTe8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)8 Subject: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS2 Message-ID: <Sd9A9.23$KK3.544796@news.cpqcorp.net>  A OpenVMS supports the addition of user and layered product modules  into these libraries:.       [SYSLIB]IMAGELIB.OLB     [SYSHLP]HELPLIB.HLB-     [SYSLIB]STARLET.OLBR  M "Supports" means that we preserve such additions when OpenVMS is upgraded -- iK these libraries get "merged" by one means or another -- not just overlayed.s  ? These libraries are NOT part of Base VMS.  IMAGELIB and STARLETiA are in the LINKER_LIBRARIES sub-option of the PROGRAMMING option;rB HELPLIB is in the HELP_LIBRARY sub-option of the UTILITIES option.  ? ("Options" and "sub-options" on OpenVMS Alpha correspond to theS/ TAILOR classes and sub-classes on OpenVMS VAX.)I  F I would like to move these libraries into base VMS.  It is likely thatE this would ONLY be done for OpenVMS Alpha.  (And, by implications, ono: future Itanium (TM) processor family versions of OpenVMS.)  8 I do not believe that disk space is a serious problem.  > Sufficiently large disks are readily and reasonably available.  G If you know of any other potential problems, or if you have an opinion  E that you would like to express, your feedback would be appreciated.  n (Here or via mail.)e  
 Thank you.  H     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL  USAH         OpenVMS  mailto:hammond@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net ("Plain Text" only).         Exchange mailto:Charles.Hammond@HP.com     --I       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USA H        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:35:24 GMT 8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)< Subject: Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS3 Message-ID: <wueA9.46$tf4.1970276@news.cpqcorp.net>l  b In article <3DD17074.F896AC20@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:  O >In VMSINSTAL terms, my only concern is keeping the "B" saveset small.  (or itsi >equivalent with PCSI stuff)..   Why is this a concern?   -- oI       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USAnH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:44:24 -0500o0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>< Subject: Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS/ Message-ID: <3DD14C07.A301D4EE@vl.videotron.ca>-   Charlie Hammond wrote: >     [SYSLIB]IMAGELIB.OLB >     [SYSHLP]HELPLIB.HLBS >     [SYSLIB]STARLET.OLBc  H > I would like to move these libraries into base VMS.  It is likely thatG > this would ONLY be done for OpenVMS Alpha.  (And, by implications, ono< > future Itanium (TM) processor family versions of OpenVMS.)  . Would you also move STARLET.MLB, STARLET.REQ ?  N 1- If you're going to do this to Alpha, you  really should also do this to VAX? , at least until HP makes an official statement about VAX-VMS.    M You guys are randomly abandonning the VAX platform without any statement fromoM the owner as to its status.  One way or the other, there should be some cleara statement about it.d   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:26:43 GMTy8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)< Subject: Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS3 Message-ID: <TBcA9.35$X14.1362034@news.cpqcorp.net>g  4 In article <bgQD44Gmbccs@eisner.encompasserve.org>, / Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) writes:   = >I blindly install help modules from both VMSINSTAL and PCSI,t@ >never considering that the system help library might not exist.? >While the fact that I have not gotten complaints for any of my ? >kits, you might check to ensure both VMSINSTAL and PCSI deftlys? >handle the absence of those libraries.  If not, you have proofsE >people are not installing in the absence of the system help library.n  G I have seen one case in which STARLET (the LINKER_LIBRARIES sub-option  I of the PROGRAMMING option) was DEselected -- but STARLET.OLB was present. 4 That is at least part of the impetus to change this.   -- fI       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USAnH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:32:47 GMT 8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)< Subject: Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS3 Message-ID: <zHcA9.36$X14.1362034@news.cpqcorp.net>t  0 In article <3DD14C07.A301D4EE@vl.videotron.ca>, 2 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes:   >Charlie Hammond wrote:  >>     [SYSLIB]IMAGELIB.OLB. >>     [SYSHLP]HELPLIB.HLB >>     [SYSLIB]STARLET.OLB >SI >> I would like to move these libraries into base VMS.  It is likely that H >> this would ONLY be done for OpenVMS Alpha.  (And, by implications, on= >> future Itanium (TM) processor family versions of OpenVMS.)s >d/ >Would you also move STARLET.MLB, STARLET.REQ ?a  F No, because unlike the three named above, we do not "assume" these are present.  N >1- If you're going to do this to Alpha, you really should also do this to VAX  K On the one hand, there is little incentive to make this sort of improovmentuI on OpenVMS VAX.  On the other hand, may VAX customers are strongly averse : to any change -- as in, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"  4 I do not expect to make this change for OpenVMS VAX.   -- hI       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USArH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:44:43 GMT 8 From: hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond)< Subject: Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS3 Message-ID: <LScA9.38$X14.1362034@news.cpqcorp.net>e  c In article <RWg54pOD8SUU@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:an >In article <Sd9A9.23$KK3.544796@news.cpqcorp.net>, hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net (Charlie Hammond) writes: >> .I >> I would like to move these libraries into base VMS.  It is likely thattH >> this would ONLY be done for OpenVMS Alpha.  (And, by implications, on= >> future Itanium (TM) processor family versions of OpenVMS.)y >tG >   I like it.  Could we also have them decompressed by default instead ; >   of manually runing libdecompress.com after the install?d  H The OpenVMS Alpha operating system CD-ROM (the "kit CD") is increasinglyJ space constrained.  For that reason, libraries will continue to be shipped' in data-reduced format.  (/DATA=REDUCE)r  G If, at some future time, we get to the point of shipping OpenVMS Alpha  + on DVD, this certainly could be considered.a   --  I       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USAtH        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)J       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 08:55:05 +0200d$ From: "MikeR" <rechtman@tzora.co.il>< Subject: Re: Moving IMAGLIB, HELPLIB and STARLTE to Base VMS5 Message-ID: <aqssrf$d78v1$1@ID-103225.news.dfncis.de>h  H I have had at least one case where because "Programming support" was notK selected ot OS install time, subsequent patch installation failed. (as doeslH my memory, regarding version and other details... IIRC circa V6.0 - 6.2)   Mike  E "Charlie Hammond" <hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net> wrote in messagee, news:Sd9A9.23$KK3.544796@news.cpqcorp.net...C > OpenVMS supports the addition of user and layered product modulest > into these libraries:p >e >     [SYSLIB]IMAGELIB.OLB >     [SYSHLP]HELPLIB.HLBy >     [SYSLIB]STARLET.OLBr >iB > "Supports" means that we preserve such additions when OpenVMS is upgraded -- B > these libraries get "merged" by one means or another -- not just
 overlayed. >eA > These libraries are NOT part of Base VMS.  IMAGELIB and STARLET C > are in the LINKER_LIBRARIES sub-option of the PROGRAMMING option; D > HELPLIB is in the HELP_LIBRARY sub-option of the UTILITIES option. >hA > ("Options" and "sub-options" on OpenVMS Alpha correspond to the 1 > TAILOR classes and sub-classes on OpenVMS VAX.)c >mH > I would like to move these libraries into base VMS.  It is likely thatG > this would ONLY be done for OpenVMS Alpha.  (And, by implications, oni< > future Itanium (TM) processor family versions of OpenVMS.) >a8 > I do not believe that disk space is a serious problem.@ > Sufficiently large disks are readily and reasonably available. >tH > If you know of any other potential problems, or if you have an opinionE > that you would like to express, your feedback would be appreciated.e > (Here or via mail.)t >/ > Thank you. >.J >     Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL  USAJ >         OpenVMS  mailto:hammond@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net ("Plain Text" only)0 >         Exchange mailto:Charles.Hammond@HP.com >a >  > --K >       Charlie Hammond -- Hewlett-Packard Company -- Pompano Beach  FL USA J >        (hammond@not@peek.ppb.cpqcorp.net -- remove "@not" when replying)L >       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer's. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:37:35 -0600 0 From: Earl Lakia <Lakia_n_o__s_p_a_m_@ipact.com>% Subject: Re: OpenVMS 7.3-1 and CSWINGr1 Message-ID: <4qycnXNqLrSpxUygXTWc2Q@netnitco.net>s  - I like cswing and would like to use it again.a  * To those who have fixed it, could you post  an executable version for Alpha?  : Anyone want to mail me their executable?  (zipped so I can get it to VMS from VMS).  $ Thanks for the work you've all done.   -earlI   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:27:06 +0100p1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>r# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingg5 Message-ID: <3DD1560A.3FA4391E@swissonline.delete.ch>m   Alan Frisbie wrote:b >  > JF Mezei wrote:i > P > > If you ever go to the australian outback, you HAVE to ask for a "Burger with
 > > the lot".  > >u; > > You'll find that McDonalds is a very "plain" hamburger.  > ? > It wasn't in the outback, but Australia was where I first had0= > a burger with a fried egg on it.   A very few places in then> > Los Angeles area serve it, but my friends think I'm crazy to3 > eat it.   They call it a "heart attack on a bun".l > = > A chain in Sweden called Route 66 also serves it, under the   > name "Dixie Truckers Special". >  > Alan Frisbie  # Only an egg ??  You weren't trying.s  6 In many places in Oz a hamburger with the lot has ... F ... lettuce, the beef, tomato, cheese, bacon, egg, onion, beetroot andG sometimes pineapple, with a good serving of tomato sauce/ketchup on it.     @ Actually rather than be a "heart attack on a bun" it is actuallyH reasonably healthy if there is not to much fat in the meat.  In this oneE meal you get carbohydrates (from the bun), protein (beef & bacon) andsG vitamins (all the vegetables & fruits).  It's a lot better for you thani a lot of other take-away food.     John   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:25:40 +0000o4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping18 Message-ID: <d102tugk15fmouso41c2anpiuheimjl05m@4ax.com>  E On 12 Nov 2002 02:17:01 -0800, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> wrote:0  ; >In article <3DD0C967.3040904@tg.nsw.gov.au>, Paddy says...i >>I >>Oh yes, memories of Wimpy bars (but can't remember any outdoor stands).h >>J >>Yes, you ordered, it was cooked and it was delivered at your table by a E >>waitress, on a plate!! and with cutlery!!, if you wanted to use it.a >fN >There are astonishingly still a few Wimpys around. And the number seems to beM >increasing again after many years of decline. There's one at the services at 8 >Junction 2 of the M90 (North of Edinburgh)for instance.  J Much missed in my eyes are Wendy burgers.  Obstinately square patties in aI round bun, you got exactly what you asked for, no more, no less, and theyoL didn't mind giving you coke no ice (at least 25% more drink)...  Still going
 in the US.  J BK *used* to do really nice fish sandwiches, but haven't been in an outletD for ages.  McD's was the last resort, and still is.  I bought a fishI sandwich in one a couple of years ago and had to be restrained from doingyF physical harm to the server when I found a slice of cheese in the bun. Battered fish and cheese !!!     	John-   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:31:51 -0500o2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingm- Message-ID: <3DD102C7.6362E21@mindspring.com>l  - Anyone considering the modern American burgerh would be well-advised to read:     Fast Food Nation: (   The Dark Side of the All-American Meal     by Eric Schlosser      ISBN: 0060938455   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060938455/qid=1037107763/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-0143798-5336028?v=glance&s=books&n=507846#product-detailst   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:06:02 -0500 ! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> # Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping ' Message-ID: <3DD10ACA.BC9DC77F@vcu.edu>Y  % *boggle*...................   man...     JF Mezei wrote:  >  > John Eisenschmidt wrote:J > > Well, my understanding is that the USDA allows "100% pure ground beef" > > to be up to 25% sawdust. > >-F > > What McDonald's calls a hamburger is 1/10 lbs of "100% pure ground > > beef" before cooking.w > J > In canada, we have a chain called Harveys which don't even bother makingO > claims about being 100% beef. I almost convinced a vegetarian once to try onelI > since it is likely there might not be any meat in there :-) :-) :-) :-)a > K > In all fairness to McDonalds, I think that they are only now waking up tonP > healthier food with salads etc in north america (they have had different menus > in europe for some time).i > K > I personally avoid McDonalds because "I am not heavy enough to trip theirEF > counter" and, as a result they cannot serve me if I go through theirN > drive-through on my bike as I would "screw up their statistics". One cyclistN > in florida was charged with trespassing when he insisted on being served andW > the civil servant inside couldn't because the cyclist hadn't triggered the "process".  > B > That is the type of experience that stays in one's mind forever.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Nov 02 23:30:58 +0100) From: p_sture@elias.decus.ch (Paul Sture)i# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping ) Message-ID: <zsLiMlBqWm$S@elias.decus.ch>   o In article <hAWz9.60083$MGm1.59010@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:I > 8 > "Paul Sture" <p_sture@elias.decus.ch> wrote in message% > news:ozJ5JwTA6lhE@elias.decus.ch...u >>) >> Is even hamburger flipping safe? From:  >>@ >> http://www.siamfuture.com/asiannews/asiannewstxt.asp?aid=1682 >>J >> "Only a few years ago, Japan was infamous for having the most expensiveD >> hamburgers in the world. In 1995, when the yen was at its peak, a > McDonald's% >> burger cost almost Dollars 3 each.b >>M >> But now McDonald's offers the very same hamburgers for Dollars 1 - a thirdr > ofF >> its peak price and one of the lowest hamburger prices in the world. >> >> ... >>H >> But soaring sales of hamburgers have not, it appears, translated into > higherC >> profits. In spite of total sales growing 7.7 per cent to Y183bn,  > McDonald'sF >> Japan recently reported a 10 per cent decline in pre-tax profits to	 > Y12.6bnCI >> (Dollars 103m) for the first half of the year. Analysts suggested that4C >> operating profits have been unable to keep up with the company's  > aggressive >> expansion program." > L > Part of the lower sales is that what McDonald's sells isn't necessarily asK > healthy to eat as other 'fast' foods priced at the same levels. Consumers  > are smartening up to this. >.  5 Oh dear, I should have quoted more from that article.y= It was not a particular snipe at any given corp. (plenty haverB done that before me), but a comment on how deflation drives prices down.   ; Try hitting Google as I did last night for such subjects as"> "Japan" "deflation" "house prices". One of those articles came; up with the scenario of a $150,000 mortage to find that theD? house is worth only $75,000 and how the banks got hit by peopleC walking away from their debts.  F Unfortunately I picked on the "burger"  one, thereby raising emotions,< but it was cutting the price to a third, selling three times6 as much (with little raise in overheads, but seriously6 messing with local suppliers), raising turnover by 7-87 percent, and still taking a 10 percent loss in profits.t    J > Also, McDonald's absolute profitability is now being driven by issues ofK > market saturation, in that they can't simply build new locations in areasrJ > that ensure a steady stream of customers and profits.  Their competitorsI > have gotten smart along the way too, and have acquired prime locations. L > Besides, can you really eat burgers 7 days/week? The novelty has worn off. >   @ Now let me look at the advertizing blurb I found in my letterbox> a couple of weeks ago. A much faster PC (6x according to MHz),> with more of everything (8x memory, 10x disk, DVD, sound card,> speakers etc) for about a third of the price of the relatively@ feeble one I bought 3.5 years ago (by the time I'd  added extras to it).t  ? Yet that original still does what I want it to, and adequately.c  ? You have it right with market saturation. Even though I can buye= something "far better" for a third of the price, I don't feela inclined to.    --  
 Paul Sture Switzerlando   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:02:25 -0800a* From: Alan Frisbie <Abuse@Flying-Disk.com># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping / Message-ID: <3DD14231.827F5BC9@Flying-Disk.com>    Shane Smith wrote: > H > Truth. Growing up in England I didn't even /see/ a McD's until the midJ > 80's. I used to go to a chain called Wimpy's. Hand grilled, buns toasted@ > dark with a hairline of burn on the edge, everything tasted of > something.  ? When I visited England in 1979, a group of us went to a Wimpy'sn> in London.   In everyone's opinion, it was awful.   I guess it? all depends on what you grow up with.   The McDonalds in London @ was even worse than in the USA, notable only for serving grilled onions on the burgers.  = On the other hand, we had really great burgers in Nottingham. > I can't recall the name, but it was not too far from "The Trip? to Jerusalem" and at the tip of where two streets came togetherq? at a sharp angle.   It was also open late in the evening, whichg was very odd in 1979.f   Alan Frisbie   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:07:39 -0800S* From: Alan Frisbie <Abuse@Flying-Disk.com># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping0/ Message-ID: <3DD1436B.29BA97C8@Flying-Disk.com>s   JF Mezei wrote:e  N > If you ever go to the australian outback, you HAVE to ask for a "Burger with > the lot".f > 9 > You'll find that McDonalds is a very "plain" hamburger.a  = It wasn't in the outback, but Australia was where I first had ; a burger with a fried egg on it.   A very few places in theo< Los Angeles area serve it, but my friends think I'm crazy to1 eat it.   They call it a "heart attack on a bun".   ; A chain in Sweden called Route 66 also serves it, under then name "Dixie Truckers Special".   Alan Frisbie   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:03:05 -0500m2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Palladium article. Message-ID: <3DD10A19.8C992607@mindspring.com>   Shane Smith wrote:  - > Simple: Put a post-it note on the screen...   . I read this and it reminded me of an old story- which I'll only repeat now because it has the * possibility of amusing and/or embarrassing3 one of the prominent posters in this newsgroup. :-)n  - Years and years ago, when the VAXtstation-IIss- were first making their appearance with VCB02 . fancy *COLOR* graphics, I happened to latch on. to one. But I tended to like my UIs subtle and2 sedate (still do!), so I had most of the interface' elements set to various shades of grey.e  / Except for the cursor. It was "PostIt!" yellow.n  + So along comes the person (who shall remaino- nameless) and they walk up to my screen, and,i- more-or-less, atttempt to pick the cursor off.
 my screen.  / Surprise! I moved the mouse, and zipping aroundg/ the screen went "the PostIt!" on my screen. :-)a  + Hey anonymous person -- remember those daysi* upstairs in the South wing of MK01? Or are) you, like me, still trying to forget? :-)    Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:51:48 -0500o+ From: "Chris Moore" <mc.moore@sympatico.ca>e' Subject: Re: Pathworks and a PDC Changeo9 Message-ID: <dvgA9.8831$md7.742215@news20.bellglobal.com>    Rob,  L I think you're going to find that PWRK 6.1 is not ready for Active DirectoryK (need to move to Advanced Server on Alpha, iirc)  I think the issue is thattI Pathworks is based on LAN Manager, whereas Win2K (and AdvServer) are not.i  J We're still struggling with these issues ourselves, as we have 3 PathworksF servers integrated with production VAX applications.  The applicationsJ aren't ready to go Alpha, so Pathworks stays, and Win2K is likely to bring down the entire house of cards.i   Chriso. <rob.buxton@wcc.spam.govt.nz> wrote in message news:3dd04508.102161590@news...p Hello any Pathworks experts!  B Running Pathworks 6.1 under OpenVMS VAX 7.2 configured as a MemberA Server. Serves out some shares and does external authentication..t  > Our NT 4 PDC is due to be replaced, as we move to a W2K Active Directory structure.  C Question is, will I need to rebuild the SAM or do any configurationl changes after the upgrade?  ? Or, should it quietly know things have moved and continue on as  before?    Any info, tips, welcome,   TIAr   Rob.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 05:07:48 GMTe$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUA Subject: Re: POP Client for VMSmail (not POP Mail client for VMS)m8 Message-ID: <00A16E18.0493996F@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  [ In article <3DD1D54F.BF31FB44@fsi.net>, "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> writes:v >Folks,t >.E >I went Googling for info. on this and came up with some posts from au= >while back. Just looking to see if anything new has emerged.p >eF >To clarify, I'm looking for a POP client for VMSmail, *NOT*, I repeatH >__N_O_T__ a POP mail client for VMS. That means, no PINE, no PTMAIL, no >PMDF or anything similar. >i" >My vision is something like this: >l >$ MAIL  >- >MAIL> SPAWN @POP_MAIL >You have 3 new messages.2 >:	 >MAIL> ^ZI >$ > - >...where POP_MAIL.COM looks sorta like this:j >: >POP_MAIL.COM: >$ MCR pop_client- >	/SERVER="popnode.tld.net"- >	/USERNAME="mbxname@tld.net"- >	/PASSWORD="password" >$ EXITi >sF >The program ("pop_client") would connect to the POP server on demand,H >retrieve the mail and insert the messages into my VMSmail mail file(s).B >Maybe best to think of it as a voluntarily invoked POP-version ofI >MAIL$SERVER rather than the "involuntary" MAIL$SERVER we have now. Never I >mind that thinsg would be MIME encoded, etc., that will be handled lateraI >on. For now, I'm just looking to solve the retrieval problem. What to do,9 >with it once I retrieve it is another question entirely.h >gI >I've never seen anything like that before. Has anyone ever heard of suchn1 >a critter, or know if it would be hard to write?   F I haven't seen such a critter, but it shouldn't be that hard to write,J depending on how concerned you are about stuff like preserving the initialJ headers.  You could probably do it completely in Perl, using available POPM client code, and just feed the retrieved messages into your local SMTP serverlI to get them delivered into your mailbox; if you do it that way, it's justaL fitting together components that already exist.  (You need to do some cleverM forging to get the headers right, and it may not be possible - you'll have toa8 decide how important the "received" headers are to you.)  E Alternatively, if you want to use C or something, you can extract the L POP-client code from something that works (does PINE do POP?  I know it doesH IMAP) and use the callable mail routines to insert stuff into the user's	 MAIL.MAI.t  I The devil's always in the details, but I suspect you could do this fairly- easily.-   -- Alan-   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:34:05 -0500o0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>A Subject: Re: POP Client for VMSmail (not POP Mail client for VMS)r/ Message-ID: <3DD1E443.6937253E@vl.videotron.ca>    "David J. Dachtera" wrote:G > To clarify, I'm looking for a POP client for VMSmail, *NOT*, I repeat.I > __N_O_T__ a POP mail client for VMS. That means, no PINE, no PTMAIL, noa > PMDF or anything similar.e > # > My vision is something like this:r >  > $ MAIL >  > MAIL> SPAWN @POP_MAILl > You have 3 new messages.  N I am woring on a background server that will automatically transfer email fromM a remote POP account at regular intervals to your VMSmail mailbox. It will be > freeware (or whatever terminology that allows you to use it).   M This is really a "port" of my software which has been running for years whichrM picks up my serious emails and transfers it to message router, and as part foyI my long term project to wein myself off the dying ALL-IN-1, porting it too$ VMSmail was one of the first steps.   G Initially, it will be able to handle multiple POP accounst to single/orbA multiple VMS mail destinations. The hooks are already in to alloweI "transactional" but may not be implemented at first (you'd send a MBAxxx:aL message to the server process containing the server name, username/password,J VMSmail destination and a few flags) and the server would then deliver the! messages to your VMSmail address.i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:19:40 -0600 7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com>vA Subject: Re: POP Client for VMSmail (not POP Mail client for VMS)aG Message-ID: <craigberry-00240C.00194013112002@news.directvinternet.com>e  ' In article <3DD1D54F.BF31FB44@fsi.net>,-3  "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net> wrote:-  G > To clarify, I'm looking for a POP client for VMSmail, *NOT*, I repeataI > __N_O_T__ a POP mail client for VMS. That means, no PINE, no PTMAIL, no  > PMDF or anything similar.9  B Well, fetchmail, if ported and then dumbed down to work on demand , instead of as a daemon, would probably work:  9 <http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/fetchmail/fetchmail-FAQ.html>i   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 00:39:17 -0000u% From: "Ade" <adrian.birkett@ic24.net>H6 Subject: Scheduler - how to re-instate an entry number> Message-ID: <e9hA9.2440$rC5.1869@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>   Chaps,  K I need re re-instate a deleted entry number in DecScheduler. (214 should bes 18).  E I see no obvious method within the application, $ SCHED MOD entry caniH (seemingly) do everything but this. Is this possible, or am I wasting my time?h   Regards,   Adee   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Nov 2002 10:44:35 -0800 From: anup_mx@yahoo.com (Anup)7 Subject: Scheduling Ingres Procedure on VAX/VMS system.o= Message-ID: <b7fc31d5.0211121044.6cb85b69@posting.google.com>o   Hi,>  2 We have Ingres database running on VAX/VMS system.  = Now we have created a procedure in Ingres using the followingr	 commands.e   $ ingmenu dbase1   Selected Application option.  ( Selected 1 for creating new application.  A After giving name and description to our application say app1, wee entered 3 to edit it.r  E In the next screen, it shows app1 frame is created. In this screen we ( press 'Numlock' and then type 'Catalog'.  C In the next screen, we selected 1 to create Procedure, selected 4GLrB procedure, then gave name to procedure say proc1, FTPed the sourceD file(.osq) and then selected 3 to compile the procedure and 4 to run it.t  0 The procedure is getting compiled successfully..    A Now we want to schedule this procedure in a batch job on VAX/VMS.t= This procedure is running successfully when we select Go froma> application menu. The problem is we don't know ow to call this" procedure from VMS command prompt.  % Basically what we are looking for is e     1)login into Ingres3 2) Execute the procedure proc12 3) The results of step 2 are stored in a log file., 4) If the results are negative mail to owner@ 5) If the results are ok then FTP a file(this file is created by- Ingres Procedure by using copy table command)H  E We need to put above code in a batch file. If someone can help us howsF we can call the procedure through Command prompt of Ingres, that wouldC be great. One thing to be noted is that we are not planning to haveyE Quel file instead of our Procedure. We should be able to schedule ourl 4GL proc through Batch file..-    
 Thanks a lot,- Anup   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:03:43 GMTo% From: Kent Smith <ksmith@ipsoinc.com> ; Subject: Re: Scheduling Ingres Procedure on VAX/VMS system.78 Message-ID: <2nj2tugv8hjk0t7rh6h24g41b4jrijl73a@4ax.com>  > On 12 Nov 2002 10:44:35 -0800, anup_mx@yahoo.com (Anup) wrote:   >Hi, >t3 >We have Ingres database running on VAX/VMS system.O >w> >Now we have created a procedure in Ingres using the following
 >commands. >d >$ ingmenu dbase1t >e >Selected Application option.  > ) >Selected 1 for creating new application.i >rB >After giving name and description to our application say app1, we >entered 3 to edit it. > F >In the next screen, it shows app1 frame is created. In this screen we) >press 'Numlock' and then type 'Catalog'.. > D >In the next screen, we selected 1 to create Procedure, selected 4GLC >procedure, then gave name to procedure say proc1, FTPed the sourceeE >file(.osq) and then selected 3 to compile the procedure and 4 to runL >it. >,1 >The procedure is getting compiled successfully..o >f >sB >Now we want to schedule this procedure in a batch job on VAX/VMS.> >This procedure is running successfully when we select Go from? >application menu. The problem is we don't know ow to call this-# >procedure from VMS command prompt.r > & >Basically what we are looking for is  >: >: >1)login into Ingres >2) Execute the procedure proc1g3 >3) The results of step 2 are stored in a log file..- >4) If the results are negative mail to ownerpA >5) If the results are ok then FTP a file(this file is created bye. >Ingres Procedure by using copy table command) >oF >We need to put above code in a batch file. If someone can help us howG >we can call the procedure through Command prompt of Ingres, that would D >be great. One thing to be noted is that we are not planning to haveF >Quel file instead of our Procedure. We should be able to schedule our >4GL proc through Batch file.. >y >> >Thanks a lot, >Anuph   Anup:r  < You need to create an application and then run it (using theA techniques I explained in answer to your previous query) with thewD -noforms command.  It is in the documentation, but I understand that2 can be intimidating if you are new to the product.   --Kent! =================================a
 Kent Smith IPSO Incorporatede! Business * Technology * Solutionsf http://www.ipsoinc.com   ------------------------------    Date: 12 Nov 2002 13:06:55 -0800. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)  Subject: Re: symbol substitution= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0211121306.772d1334@posting.google.com>u  ] Mark Preston <mark.preston@oracle.com> wrote in message news:<3DD123D3.2010401@oracle.com>...p; > I came across a line of code that is working, but I don'th8 > understand why.  I thought I understood ' and & symbol5 > substitution, but given the & inside the ' and thatr8 > ' is processed during the first phase and & the second3 > phase of command processing, I don't get why thiso0 > works.  Maybe I'm just having a senior moment? > 0 > $  plist = f$edit("''rec'list","UPCASE") - "*" > $  plist := '&plist'  B The apostrophe is forcing early ampersand substitution, and it all happens in the first phase.    So you get g  ?   '&plist'  -->  'VALUE_OF_PLIST'  -->  VALUE_OF_VALUE_OF_PLISTe  B This is analagous to the apostrophe forcing early lexical function: evalution in commands like $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "The time is
 ''F$TIME()'.".  @ WARNING: The result of &plist MUST be an uppercase string. If itE contains any lowercase letters, the result of &plist will be the nullr string.u  A You must be careful whenever you use the ampersand with lowercase E letters. Sometimes it will work if the command operating on the final D value is caseblind, as is the case with the TYPE command, but that's not always the case.  ' BTW, you can also use the ampersand to d    C 1.) perform several levels of substitution (assuming the results ofe= the intermediate ampersand substitutions contain no lowercases letters!!!):   $ RESULT = &'&ZERO    1 2.) perform symbol substitution within comments!:c  F $ ! P1 = '&P1'   ! P1 on the RHS ***MUST*** be spelled in uppercase!!!     3.) avoid using quotes:e   $    DT = F$TIME() $! [other DCL commands]i $    DIR/SINC=&DTo    = 4.) hide unprintable characters from SYS$OUTPUT (when commandt5 verification is enabled) while avoiding using quotes:e  F $   prompt_string = cr + esc + "[2K" + "MORE: Edit, Save, or Quit [Q]: "e1 $   read sys$command/prompt=&prompt_string answer C $! or you might use a SET PROMPT=&prompt_string command for the DCL  prompt.h    0 5.) implement "delayed-evaluation error labels":   $ LABEL = "LABEL1" $ ON WARNING THEN GOTO &LABELc $ LABEL = "LABEL2"+ $! the next warning take you to to LABEL2. n     6.)  $ RESULT = F$STRING(&A)    F If anyone knows of any other uses for the ampersand, please post them!   Disclaimer: JMHO. Alan E. Feldman &-)   !!! (Bill de Cat smiley)   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:52:51 -0500I, From: Mark Preston <mark.preston@oracle.com> Subject: symbol substitution) Message-ID: <3DD123D3.2010401@oracle.com>2  9 I came across a line of code that is working, but I don't>6 understand why.  I thought I understood ' and & symbol3 substitution, but given the & inside the ' and thath6 ' is processed during the first phase and & the second1 phase of command processing, I don't get why thisn. works.  Maybe I'm just having a senior moment?  . $  plist = f$edit("''rec'list","UPCASE") - "*" $  plist := '&plist'   thanks,  m.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:04:39 -0500u, From: Mark Preston <mark.preston@oracle.com>  Subject: Re: symbol substitution' Message-ID: <3DD12697.10000@oracle.com>d  < I finally found the answer in the archives of this newsgroup" when it was answered back in 2000.   m.   Mark Preston wrote: ; > I came across a line of code that is working, but I don'tl8 > understand why.  I thought I understood ' and & symbol5 > substitution, but given the & inside the ' and thatA8 > ' is processed during the first phase and & the second3 > phase of command processing, I don't get why thisT0 > works.  Maybe I'm just having a senior moment? > 0 > $  plist = f$edit("''rec'list","UPCASE") - "*" > $  plist := '&plist' > 	 > thanks,a > m. >    ------------------------------   Date: 12 Nov 2002 20:48 CSTl' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)w  Subject: Re: symbol substitution- Message-ID: <12NOV200220484032@gerg.tamu.edu>n  2 spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman) writes...^ }Mark Preston <mark.preston@oracle.com> wrote in message news:<3DD123D3.2010401@oracle.com>...< }> I came across a line of code that is working, but I don't9 }> understand why.  I thought I understood ' and & symbolc6 }> substitution, but given the & inside the ' and that9 }> ' is processed during the first phase and & the secondl4 }> phase of command processing, I don't get why this1 }> works.  Maybe I'm just having a senior moment?x }>  1 }> $  plist = f$edit("''rec'list","UPCASE") - "*"o }> $  plist := '&plist'm } C }The apostrophe is forcing early ampersand substitution, and it all  }happens in the first phase. }  }So you get  } @ }  '&plist'  -->  'VALUE_OF_PLIST'  -->  VALUE_OF_VALUE_OF_PLIST } C }This is analagous to the apostrophe forcing early lexical function ; }evalution in commands like $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "The time isB }''F$TIME()'." } A }WARNING: The result of &plist MUST be an uppercase string. If itrF }contains any lowercase letters, the result of &plist will be the null }string.   Don't count on it.   $ bar = '&foo'
 $ sh symb foo)
   FOO = "Foo"n
 $ sh symb bara   BAR = "Wombat"   How did I manage this? Well...   $ sh symb "Foo"-   Foo = "Wombat"  B If you try hard enough you can define a symbol that has lower caseG letters in the symbol name. (If you do a SHOW SYMB F%%, both defintionseJ show up.) Not as the first letter (at least, not from DCL - I havn't tried* other ways), but after that you can do it.   Another example:   $ aa = "Aa"w $ &aa = "B"a $ sh symb a%   AA = "Aa" 
   Aa = "B"  F As you can see, it turns out that you can use the "&" on the left handG side of the symbol definition too. This can lead to some rather strange I things. I don't recommend actually ever doing it, outside of just showing> off like I'm doing now ;-)  A After doing the definitions for AA and Aa above, you can do this:B  	 $ b = "z"  $ write sys$output '&aa' zt  ) Since "Aa" is a defined symbol, it works.e  G Note that you get a different answer with '&aa' than you do with &'aa':s   $ write sys$output '&aa' zh $ write sys$output &'aa' Be  G The second case apparently invloves implicit uppercasing - it is either H part of the single quote translation phase or between that phase and theG ampersand translation phase - that causes the 'aa' => Aa to become "AA"AE again, and then &AA is Aa (which the write command then translates to I get the "B" - there is evidently no uppercasing in or after the ampersandhJ translation phase). The first case, which forces the ampersand translationE to happen early, in the single quote phase, so you get the evaluation2D of (I think this is the right order) &aa => Aa and then 'Aa' => B (, leading to B => z in the write.H  G }If anyone knows of any other uses for the ampersand, please post them!o }  }Disclaimer: JMHO</ }Alan E. Feldman &-)   !!! (Bill de Cat smiley)n  F I just did, although I don't know that I would call it a "use" so muchF as "a rather pointless trick that could really confuse someone who hasE to maintain your code later". Creating symbols with lowercase lettersiF in them may be aesthetically pleasing to look at, or something, but it, is probably not a good plan in the long run.  A Even more gruesome (just because I know someone will try it - now  you don't have to):d   $ z = "Really bad symbol name!"l! $ &z = "This is not a good idea."e $ show symbol "Re"*n6   Really bad symbol name! = "This is not a good idea."  ? Yep, you guessed it: spaces and puncutation in the symbol name.n! You can use 8-bit characters too.o  ? And yes, any characters work (as far as I know - I havn't triediB all of them). This does mean that you can embed the various escape< sequences in your symbol name that will affect your terminal? (making a symbol include characters in the bold rendition beingo< a comparatively harmless use - its what I tried to see if itC would work). They are not filtered. They do work. This is a really,-B really, bad idea. Don't do it. (I am not providing an example - if= you can't figure out how to do it yourself at this point, youLC certainly shouldn't be doing it. Actually, even if you know how yous still shouldn't.)  e  5 Fortunately DELETE/SYMBOL works with the &, so to get"$ rid of the above symbol you can do a   $ delete/symbol &z  A and it does get rid of the symbol named "Really bad symbol name!"tE for you - the whole thing is one parameter for the command, includingt, the spaces, after the ampersand translation.  B Note: there are some regular characters that can be embeded in theB symbol name that make it hard to do anything with it, particularlyC the double quote - that one seems to render the symbol undeleteableSE by anything other than DELETE/SYMBOL/ALL. You can define it as above,sH but using the very same symbol substitution in the DELETE/SYMBOL command fails to work:    $ aa = "Write sys$output ""aa""" $ &aa = "Yuck."a $ sh symb aa   AA = "Write sys$output "aa"" $ sh symb "Wr"*R!   Write sys$output "aa" = "Yuck."  $ delete/symbol &aas= %DCL-W-UNDSYM, undefined symbol - check validity and spelling  $ sh symb "Wr"*u!   Write sys$output "aa" = "Yuck."o $ delete/symbol/allc $ sh symb "Wr"*a= %DCL-W-UNDSYM, undefined symbol - check validity and spellingi  > Spaces in symbol names mean that it won't "interfere" with any& command you enter on the command line.  ? While this symbol named "Write sys$output "aa"" exists, you can @ actually enter the command and it will still work - it won't try> to run the nonexistant "Yuck." command (even if you capitalize2 the name of the symbol completely and everything).  A This would be because the CLI only checks for translations of thec@ individual word, not the phrase, i.e. it only checks "WRITE" notE "WRITE SYS$OUTPUT", or anything even longer. The space is a delimiter B for the CLI. Thus they don't "interfere". Someone might think this@ is a useful feature and try to take advantage of it. I wouldn't.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:13:50 -0500 ( From: "Barney Kwok" <bkwok@sympatico.ca>! Subject: SYS$ICC_RECEIVE questionn9 Message-ID: <0kkA9.9899$QD6.922524@news20.bellglobal.com>s   Hello OpenVMS gurus,  A Does anyone ever come across %SYSTEM-F-INSFARG error when calling F    SYS$ICC_RECEIVEW( ConnHandle,  &iosb_icc, 0, 0,  &buffer, 10000 ) ?  5 The environment is OpenVMS/Alpha 7.3.1, Compaq C 6.4.W  B Just 6 simple parameters in the API and I am scratching my head...   Many thanks in advance.t   B.Kwok   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:19:21 -0500e. From: Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> Subject: system calls, RE time. Message-ID: <3DD16249.7C5BF9FE@pressenter.com>  
 Hello all,   No, this isn't schoolwork.   Alpha VMS 7.3-1M DECC 6.2 (I think)    F I've been moving all my stuff from my dying Linux based webserver to a newly built VMS machine.  ; I've got the raw data moved. Now I need to port some of the 
 applications.   B I need to sort and index lots of files by month and date they were created.   I need to do several things.    1. Get the system date and time. 	I'm using $GETTIM for that.  H 2. Calculate "seven days ago." so I can tag something as "new." AnythingB posted in the last seven days, (rounded up) is considered new. I'mE posting this a 7:00 PM on a Tuesday evening. Everything created since 9 the beginning of the day on last Wednesday would qualify.   : 	I think I can use lib$sub_times for this. Need help here.  $ 3. Get create date and time of file.  5 	I'm using fabs, xabs, and sys$open(&fab) to do this.a  : 4. Get month and year from above info. (in integer values)  @ 	I can use string manipulation. But hoping for something better. 	(Need help here too.)  3 5. Compare files creation time to "seven days ago."t   	Need help here too.  5 6. Get file name and type, out of the full file spec.s   	Need help here too.    > I guess I'm looking for the system equivelant of the lexicals.0 f$cvtime,  f$parse. Haven't found anything yet.   A I know what I want to do. But haven't found the right pieces yet.-  " Any pointers would be appreciated.   Thanks,    Lyndon   -- nG My opinions are mine and mine alone. They seldom align with those of myi	 employer.s    H The only good thing about putting the cart before the horse is you don't have to look at the horse's butt.   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Nov 2002 21:49 CSTd' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)p" Subject: Re: system calls, RE time- Message-ID: <12NOV200221491814@gerg.tamu.edu>o  2 Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> writes...I }2. Calculate "seven days ago." so I can tag something as "new." AnythingaC }posted in the last seven days, (rounded up) is considered new. I'meF }posting this a 7:00 PM on a Tuesday evening. Everything created since: }the beginning of the day on last Wednesday would qualify. } ; }	I think I can use lib$sub_times for this. Need help here.s  @ You can use SYS$BINTIM and a delta time format to get a value ofA "negative seven days", since delta times are negative values. YoulD can then add this negative value to the current date-time (in binaryC format too) to get the value for seven days ago (this is easier nowM@ that there are 64 bit integer data types, at least on an Alpha).  ; }4. Get month and year from above info. (in integer values)n } A }	I can use string manipulation. But hoping for something better.u }	(Need help here too.)e  D The SYS$NUMTIM function may be what you are looking for, it splits aB system time value (as from SYS$BINTIM) into 7 values for the year,0 month, day, hour, minute, second, and hudredths.  ? Alternatively, there is the LIB$CVT_FROM_INTERNAL_TIME routine.e  A The C RTL also has a bunch of time related functions that you mayo be able to use.   4 }5. Compare files creation time to "seven days ago." }  }	Need help here too.   H If you are using 64 bit integers, the binary times are plain old numbersF and you can just use a normal comparison once you have a value for the seven days ago part.  6 }6. Get file name and type, out of the full file spec. }  }	Need help here too.   J Link in a NAM or NAML block to your FAB. Fill it with a call to SYS$PARSE.K It has fields for each of the file specification parts - device, directory,oD name, type, and version - such as naml.naml$l_long_name for the nameD (and a corresponding naml.naml$l_long_name_size so you know how long it is).   ? }I guess I'm looking for the system equivelant of the lexicals.u1 }f$cvtime,  f$parse. Haven't found anything yet.   }Lyndona  G I don't think there is a single equivalent to F$CVTIME, but you can get E pretty much all of it from various calls - LIB$CVT_FROM_INTERNAL_TIMEiE is one of the newer ones that lets you get things like the day of thel' week from a system (binary) time value.   C F$PARSE is pretty much a wrapper for the SYS$PARSE RMS routine thatmH only lets you specify which one thing you want to see, whereas SYS$PARSE$ lets you get them all with one call.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:31:39 -0500i0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>" Subject: Re: system calls, RE time/ Message-ID: <3DD1D5A6.FB921017@vl.videotron.ca>s   Lyndon Bartels wrote:oJ > 2. Calculate "seven days ago." so I can tag something as "new." Anything  C >         I think I can use lib$sub_times for this. Need help here.t  * $DESCRIPTOR(seven_days_desc,"7 00:00:00");  unsigned long seven_days_bin[2];  - SYS$BINTIM(&seven_days_desc,&seven_days_bin);h  6 Then, you can subtract 7 dasy from another binary timeB lib$sub_times(&start_date_bin,  &seven_days_bin, &resultant_time);    < > 4. Get month and year from above info. (in integer values)  ! You can use a number of routines:r  I SYS$NUMTIM will give you a array of short ints, one for year, month, day,." hour, minute, second, millisecond.  V there is also LIB$CVT_FROM_INTERNAL_TIME which can give you a wider variety of output.  ( (help RTL LIB LIB$CVT_FROM_INTERNAL_TIME  5 > 5. Compare files creation time to "seven days ago."w  L One way to do this is to use LIB$SUB_TIMES and check the return code. If the3 subtraction yields a negative number you are told. s  K Another way is to convert the delta time to seconds (CVT_FROM_INTERNAL_TIME J will do that for you) and then test to see if the seconds are less or more# than 7 days with normal statements.   7 > 6. Get file name and type, out of the full file spec.   H Look at the RMS manual. the $NAM block (that can be attached to the $FABJ block) contains pointers to each portion of the full file spec. Along with) each pointer is the size fo head "string.n  K (it seems that it is just one long string that contains the full file spec,h5 with pointers to where each part of the name begins.)    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:04:33 -0600s7 From: "Craig A. Berry" <craigberry@nospam.telocity.com>m" Subject: Re: system calls, RE timeG Message-ID: <craigberry-208253.21043212112002@news.directvinternet.com>e  . In article <3DD16249.7C5BF9FE@pressenter.com>,0  Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> wrote:    @ > I guess I'm looking for the system equivelant of the lexicals.
 > f$cvtime,  f   Try   0 $ pipe help rtl lib | search sys$input time,date  I and then look more closely at the docs for routines that sound promising.t  
 >f$parse.   $ Look for sys$parse in the RMS manual  G Also, you may well be able to do what you want with the C library.  In kD partcular see time(), gmtime(), strftime(), and stat() in the C RTL  manual.e   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:11:29 -0500b0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>$ Subject: TCPIP 5.3:  VAX DHCP server/ Message-ID: <3DD17C82.8FB75BDE@vl.videotron.ca>o  J Has anyone been able to run the DHCP SERVER on VAX with TCPIP Services 5.3 with success ?  N While the DHCP GUI crashes consistently whenever I try to edit a field that isM a list (for instance a list of IP adresses), I ended up using TPU to edit thea
 config files.   J However, while the server does start and appear to work, the clients don't	 "get it".y  E In the logs I see the server receiving the DHCP requests, temporarliy M allocating an IP request and seamingly sending a DHCPOFFER. But the macintoshiI at the other end just waits and waits. I tried this with 2 different macs N (with with old 8.5 software and another with 8.6). Both fail to receive/accept
 the offer.  H I know that with TCPIP 5.0 I had no problems setting up the DHCP server.  M Also, I had to lower the "Min BOOTP Packet size" to 240 because it seems that M the mac was sending a 250 byte DHCP request packet (not the first packet, butlF subsequent packets when the mac wouldn't receive a response from firstH request). Lowering this has stopped the warning messages in the log, but2 didn't change anything in terms of making it work.    N If i know that it just doesn't work in 5.3, I will have the DHCP server run onM my all mighty microvax-II that is still at 5.0 and be done with it. I want it L setup and operational at a flick of a switch should I ever need it ( someoneX coming here with a laptop needing quick access to my net and the internet for instance).  N But if I know that someone has succesfully made it work, then I may spend some more time looking into it.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:13:53 -0500n; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>oA Subject: Re: VMS @ 25 --- Mark Gorham's Presentation at HPETS2002s$ Message-ID: <3dd18b7a$1@news.si.com>  ? >The real files are also available for download as a zip set ateI >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/25/index.html (the mpg's will havep >links tomorrow).i   From HP's server:oL The requested document "http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/25/index.html" was not found on this server.m -- nA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comnA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.como= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:11:19 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>oA Subject: Re: VMS @ 25 --- Mark Gorham's Presentation at HPETS2002 I Message-ID: <bvbA9.70757$MGm1.32334@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>e  2 "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> wrote in messageL news:BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660B33@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net. ..  F The fact that the CEO of HP has released a very positive message aboutF OpenVMS and also stated "new Customers" and "new applications" in that& message is good news for OpenVMS fans.  B Imho, the key to success in the future is diversity and that meansG promoting different options fairly and letting Customers decide what isl best for them.  ; Come on .. Admit it - you smiled when you read the quote ..o   ------------------   Kerry,   Sadly to say I did not smile.f  K As I mentioned, it was the barest minimum that any CEO of any company would I say about any of their products. It's nothing to write home about. All it)G will do is add one more hit in some search engines when somebody enterseJ 'carly' +VMS, bringing the grand total of mentions by her to 3 in the pastG 14 months. For something that allegedly represents 10% of the company's 	 business.s  L My wife's hairdresser gets more excited over a can of hairspray, one that heL simply resells, not one that he makes. Carly is in the same sort of business> in a way, selling a spray-on veneer to keep things fluffed up.    " For an interesting exercise, go to= http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/speeches/fiorina/index.html-J and enter 'VMS' or 'OpenVMS' as the search criteria. Don't be surprised at what you see, or don't see.P  B Take a look at the speech she gave at the Goldman Sachs Technology Conference in Feb. 2002.B http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/speeches/fiorina/goldman_02.html  J There, before some of the largest institutional investors in the world sheI said, "Compaq is No. 1 today in high-performance computing as a result of)J their Tandem acquisition. Between Himalaya, their fault-tolerant computingE systems, and our own super-fast Superdome, we will have an incredibly 8 powerful position at the high end of the server market."  J Duh? Facts don't matter?   'Scuse me - where's Alpha? Oh, it's dead. Can't speak of the dead.  G Yet she also says, "HP has been losing momentum and losing money in ouroK Windows business for almost two years. Today, our market share is about 8%.eI And while we've made great progress in Linux, our efforts here need to be C beefed-up quickly. We need a winning multi-OS server business to betC successful in enterprise computing and to execute on our strategy."n  I So where is VMS in all of this? VMS is the best general-purpose operatingiH system HP can offer any customer, and HP freaking owns it. So why aren'tI they marketing it? Offering Windows, linux, and unix, is only part of the0C solution spectrum. Winning means that their customers win, and moreCF enterprise computing customers will win bigger with VMS than the other operating systems.  J Lee Iacocca used to go on television with his "Lead, follow, or get out ofI the way" pitch. Carly isn't a leader, she's a follower. A leader leads byoJ practicing the art of persuasion rather than parroting let's follow Intel,I let's follow Bill, let's follow Linus, say IA-64 will be great because wenG can't compete with Alpha, yet when you own Alpha you don't correct yourt corporate mistakes.T  K History is filled with examples of people buying into the 'Big Lie'. It waslI the Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels, of course, who noted that big liesIK can paradoxically be believed more easily than smaller lies, because of the.@ human inability to completely dismiss arrogance backed by power.    H If VMS generates 10% of HP's revenue, then give the VMS group 10% of theK advertising budget of the company for 18 months and let's see what happens.i        D HP does have a marvelous product in VMS and Alpha. It chooses to letK shareholder value erode by not promoting it. Yet it continues to pour moneytG into a PC business that provides only low margin returns at the best ofoJ times. I think it is time that Wall Street became really aware of the harm2 being caused to shareholder value by HP's actions.    J Anyone here care to help me write a 20-odd page report WE can circulate toK all the technology analysts on the Street and to all the technology writerslL at all the major business publications world-wide detailing HP's failures inG this regard? It would be the sort of analysis that none of these peoplesG would ever do on their own because it deals with only one product among,H many. Having written brokerage research reports for a living in a formerK life, I know how the game is played. At the very least, it would cause someoL more critical questions to be asked of HP by the Street. it may inspire someG interesting articles and research reports. It may even cause a bit of at shareholder revolt.   F It'd be a combination of technology, financial, and market issues. I'mC thinking that guys who's bread isn't buttered by HP are the obviousOL candidates to assist. Without mentioning names, Bill Todd, Paul DeMone, DaveJ Mathog, Alan Winston, and some others who frequent, and lurk in c.o.v. popK into mind. People with region-specific insights into their markets would befH useful, Europe, Australia-Asia. People who have first-hand experience inA having VMS ripped out from under them in all manner of venues andvG applications, and people who have incredible successes they can relate.r  I In the end, we'd have something that objectively looks at the reasons foraJ VMS being where it is today, what could be done to reverse that trend, andH whether it ought to be reversed. The ultimate conclusion will be that HP should do one of the following:l. a) promote and market VMS to new customers, orG b) continue along the current circuitous path to oblivion (both VMS and  corporate), or c) kill VMS today.  I I know that isn't necessarily the objective research that many here wouldnG support and may not reach the conclusion that we all would hope that itnH does, but this is the intellectually honest thing way to do it. It would< lend much credence to the value of the points that are made.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:24:03 -0500p* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>A Subject: Re: VMS @ 25 --- Mark Gorham's Presentation at HPETS2002,2 Message-ID: <kMicncjsc7jC_kygXTWc3g@metrocast.net>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageC news:bvbA9.70757$MGm1.32334@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...t   ...i  I > History is filled with examples of people buying into the 'Big Lie'. Ite waseK > the Nazi propagandist Joseph Goebbels, of course, who noted that big lieslI > can paradoxically be believed more easily than smaller lies, because of- the-B > human inability to completely dismiss arrogance backed by power.  L Precisely.  Godwin's Rule be damned:  sometimes a spade needs to be called a spade.   ...t  L > Anyone here care to help me write a 20-odd page report WE can circulate toE > all the technology analysts on the Street and to all the technology< writerssK > at all the major business publications world-wide detailing HP's failuresl inI > this regard? It would be the sort of analysis that none of these people I > would ever do on their own because it deals with only one product amongaJ > many. Having written brokerage research reports for a living in a former& > life, I know how the game is played.  B That would seem a major plus, if you can deliver what it suggests.  '  At the very least, it would cause some I > more critical questions to be asked of HP by the Street. it may inspire  someI > interesting articles and research reports. It may even cause a bit of ah > shareholder revolt.s >eH > It'd be a combination of technology, financial, and market issues. I'mE > thinking that guys who's bread isn't buttered by HP are the obviousgI > candidates to assist. Without mentioning names, Bill Todd, Paul DeMone,  DaveL > Mathog, Alan Winston, and some others who frequent, and lurk in c.o.v. pop > into mind.  E I'd do what I could to help, but in truth most of what I likely couldtK contribute I already have.  Paul might or might not be interested, since he L tends to realpolitik in his attitude:  Alpha was great, but it's dead - time to move on.I  E And you really can't begin to address the VMS issue without involvingpI Alpha - a lot.  The mentality that killed Alpha was exactly the mentalitygJ that's killing VMS (just more slowly, for the moment), and unless HP takesH major steps to *prove* that this mentality has changed customers will beK reluctant to embrace VMS even if its marketing improves - especially duringe; the time that it can be purchased only on a dying platform.n   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:08:25 -0800l$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> Subject: RE: VMS freewarem0 Message-ID: <01C28A3B.F938D4B0@sulfer.icius.com>  G I'm reading that differently. I'm hearing "what's missing that you wantsG us to port?" True, it'd be nice to see a link to process, but don't let E that omission blind you to the important bit; they're asking us whichh gaps to fill in.   Shane    -----Original Message-----@ From: Phillip Helbig [mailto:HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com]( Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 6:48 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com  Subject: VMS freeware     8 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/opensource/opensource.html  1 >  future directions of OpenVMS open source toolst >  > Tell us what you think!  > E > Please send email to OpenVMSSecurity@hp.com and tell us which open dC > source products you would like to see part of future versions of y > OpenVMS. n  ; I think the page should just have the following information   4 <A HREF="http://www.process.com/openvms/index.html">@ Here is an excellent source for free software which runs on VMS. </A>  F I really don't see the point of a page at HP which has just a fractionG of the packages at the Process site mentioned above.  I think that most3H freeware packages which are commonly used on VMS are at the Process siteH above.  It is nice to have a single source for such packages, especially? if it is as well organised and maintained as the Process site. c  G I DO think the freeware CD is a good idea.  Although obviously it will SG tend to lag behind web-based archives, a relatively up-to-date version rF is good to get things kick-started; packages which need to be updated = can be done individually.  So have a link to the freeware CD.   E Why mention just a few items?  I haven't looked in detail, but these wD don't appear to be different than, say, the versions at the process  site.  Why just THESE items?  F Some, it appears, are included with VMS.  In that case, shouldn't the 3 source code just be in SYS$EXAMPLES or somewhere?  o  H Anyone who runs third-party software on VMS has, compared to regular VMSH upgrades and patches, a fair amount of administrative work to do to keep? current.  What we really don't need is an additional web page, tG especially if it doesn't offer much but, since it is at HP, could give eE the impression that the stuff here is somehow better than stuff from c somewhere else.    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 16:05:06 GMTn# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>sG Subject: Re: VMS machines behind DSL router---do I need PAT or just NATyH Message-ID: <SE9A9.49030$YSz1.6829@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  F "Phillip Helbig" <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> wrote in message5 news:01KORY30IC8Y9ZLF2M@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com...e >t > > But what youK > > haven't understood is that  you can have multiple incoming and outgoingt > > connections concurrently.g >aH > I think I've understood it, and that I need PAT to do this.  It seems,I > however, that most routers---even low-cost ones---which say they do NATr > actually do PAT.     Exactly correct.   Check this one out.h: http://www.smc.com/drivers_downloads/library/7004FW_DS.pdf  H It has a suite of features that would have cost about $1000 just 2 years2 ago - today, US price as low as $60 after rebates.   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:45:33 +0000 (UTC)e, From: lewis@mazda.mitre.org (Keith A. Lewis)G Subject: Re: VMS machines behind DSL router---do I need PAT or just NAT-. Message-ID: <aqrspt$5n6$1@newslocal.mitre.org>  E >Yes, you want PAT. NAT allows a static translation between an insideDE >address, and one of a block of "outside" routable addresses. It alsowE >allows for both inbound and outbound access. PAT allows for multiple I >inside addresses to use a single outside address for outbound access. IfeC >you have only one outside address, you'll need to use PAT to allowe= >multiple nodes to make outbound connections simultaneously.    J I've never heard of PAT before, but this description of NAT sounds nothing like the NAT I use.   I NAT is *designed* for simultaneous outbound connections.  These days eveneK the cheap routers have DMZ, port forwarding, and port triggering.  The onlyUJ thing your basic NAT router cannot do is route an inbound port to multipleI inside addresses (but it can route it to your cluster alias, which may be   just as good for your purposes).  + --Keith Lewis              klewis$mitre.orgt> The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:14:52 -0500t0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>G Subject: Re: VMS machines behind DSL router---do I need PAT or just NATt/ Message-ID: <3DD17D4D.CF3E58DA@vl.videotron.ca>s   "Keith A. Lewis" wrote: L > thing your basic NAT router cannot do is route an inbound port to multipleK > inside addresses (but it can route it to your cluster alias, which may bes" > just as good for your purposes).    N My router only routes to IP adresses. If the cluster alias is implemented as aM DNS based solution, then how could the consumer grade router be made to routes% an incoming call to a cluster alias ?    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:30:23 -0500p  From: John Santos <JOHN@egh.com>G Subject: Re: VMS machines behind DSL router---do I need PAT or just NATp4 Message-ID: <1021112201358.400A-100000@Ives.egh.com>  , On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, John E. Malmberg wrote:   > JF Mezei wrote:a > B > > Ok, of a consumer grade router that does "NAT" allows multipleF > > outbound connections (and mine does), what happens when 2 separateE > > machines try to connect to the same host on the outside and theiro@ > > "outgoing" port is the same ? Will that confuse the router ? > F > No, the NAT software assigns a new port for each connection that is  > passed through.q >  > For example: > 9 > 10.10.10.1 port 13000 shows up externally as port 24000g9 > 10.10.10.2 port 13000 shows up externally as port 24001n > D > Incoming packets to port 24001 get routed to 10.10.10.2 port 13000D > Incoming packets to port 24000 get routed to 10.10.10.1 port 13000 > " > [Port numbers made up of course] >   B Where a problem sometimes arises is on the remote system.  It seesC two inbound connections, but both appear to be coming from the samecA source (your router.)  Some servers (or some services) don't like B this.  I think multi-player games are especially vulnerable.  They@ think either you restarted your PC (and close the 1st connectionD when they see the second one), or they think you are trying to cheatC and run more than one player, or are maybe a bot.  (Remember, theserA guys are dealing with lots of teenagers!)  Chat services may alsoT act like this.  D I don't think a typical TELNET, FTP, HTML, etc. server would care atB all that you are creating multiple connections from a single host.  E My ISP (Verizon) says they limit NNTP to 5 simultaneaous connections,aB so this might be a problem if I were running multiple news clientsC on my LAN.  Some (many? all?) news clients use multiple connectionsmC so they can download multiple messages at the same time or download0? headers from multiple groups simultaneously.  This gives better C response, I guess.  I vaguely recall having to twiddle something inpD Gravity to make it behave.  If I were running Gravity simultaneously9 on two systems, I might have to throttle it back further.   B BTW, at work, our ISP only allows inbound connections from its ownE networks, and we have a weird, probably over-elaborate and definatelyr> bizarre mixture of routing, PAT, NAT, SPLAT and whatever, with3 multiple firewalls, DMZ's, packet filter, etc. etc.F  ? Some of the internal hosts are NAT'ed (if that's a verb) to theEA IP address of our external router/firewall (assigned by the ISP),oA and thus can access their news server, but others have real classg> C addresses as assigned to us.  These systems can't access the> news server, so I wrote my 2nd ever TCP/IP program, which runsA on one of the NAT'ed systems (a Linux PC, but I wrote the programoF and tested it on a VMS system, and it required only trivial, backwards; compatible changes to work on both...)  It accepts incomingiA connections on the NNTP port (119), and everytime it gets one, it A creates a connection to our ISP's news server, relays the packetsAB both ways, and closes the outbound connection when it sees a close= from the client.  Works pretty well, though it does die abouts; once a month for utterly mysterious reasons.  We have aboute> 5-6 news users internally who use it.  I haven't seen any sign@ our work ISP is limiting connections, but I suppose it would not< be beyond my "C" skills to make it queue connections if this became an issue.  = If it becomes an issue at home (where I know NNTP connections = are limited), I'll just install it on my MV3600 and point alle my news clients at it ;-)x  9 (BTW, if there is any interest in this, even if only as aD: horrible example of how not to do TCP/IP programming, I'll post it.  It isn't very big.)   D > > Is there a way to spacity which outgoing port will be used when ! > > connecting to a remote host ?g > H > None that I am aware of.  But that could depend on what you are using 
 > for NAT. > K > There is a technical discustion on how NAT or IP Masquerade in the LINUX h< > how to documents, and probably other places.  A search of , > http://www.google.com should turn them up. > - > LINUX goes by IP Masquerade instead of NAT.t >  > -Johng > wb8tyw@qsl.network > Personal Opinion Onlyt   -- ? John Santos- Evans Griffiths & Hart, Inc. 781-861-0670 ext 539   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:34:05 -0600 / From: "Stuart, Ed" <Ed.Stuart@austinenergy.com>yD Subject: RE: VMS mentioned in Comp.risks article on WA pipeline fireT Message-ID: <92EFB80E551BD511B39500D0B7B0CDCC0642CB69@ohms.electric.ci.austin.tx.us>  F I have to agree.  When the request for proposal went out for our SCADAJ upgrade we received responses from vendors who had both OpenVMS and Tru-64L offerings, yet they only proposed the Tru-64.  The winning vendor's proposal uses Tru-64 on AlphaServers.    	 Ed Stuart + Information Technology & Telecommunications0
 Austin EnergytE **Please apply a generous amount of all the usual disclaimers here.**u       > -----Original Message-----% > From: LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM  ' > [mailto:LESLIE@JRLVAX.HOUSTON.RR.COM]t) > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 6:45 AM" > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com F > Subject: Re: VMS mentioned in Comp.risks article on WA pipeline fire >  > ( > Main, Kerry (Kerry.Main@hp.com) wrote: > : Stuart,t > : G > : From the following url, it would appear that some SCADA sites using + > : OpenVMS have implemented clustering.=20t > :  > : Reference:@ > : http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/brochures/hydroquebec/ > :  > E > But is SCADA/process control one of the niche markets for OpenVMS ?b > ? > OpenVECTOR was ported Windows NT, where clustering means two ,
 > nodes with .7 > no sharing, and unix. IIRC, there were very few unix b > OpenVECTOR systems, 7 > most of the newer OpenVECTOR systems were Windows NT.f > G > Unless SCADA/process control is one of the niche markets for OpenVMS,eD > the SCADA vendors will kill off their OpenVMS products, as demand 1 > increases for other platforms, such as Windows.i > 4 > --Jerry Leslie   (my opinions are strictly my own); >   Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email. >    ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:11:29 -0500s# From: "Island" <sales@islandco.com>n Subject: Re: VMS Sales/ Message-ID: <ut2v6n3p6ibn08@news.supernews.com>c  H Actually, in a world of depressed markets we have seen a 30% increase in2 revenue, marked by around 50% increase in systems.  K And these are not the PWS style small systems, they are primarily DS20e andy ES40 boxes.   L Another really bewildering statement made by some of our customers (and they, include people like Boeing and Harvard, MIT)F is that after the big merger, they couldn't find out whom to buy from.K It used to be that DEC/Compaq had field sales people, but they are about ass" common now as Rocking Horse Do Do.  L The majority of our business, though we would like it to be from COV people, is from Google searches.J It is the only place where they can find any kind of semblance of an Alpha vendor   DT   -- David B Turner	 Sales DptH Island Computers US Corporation  2700 Gregory Streeto	 Suite 180  Savannah GA 31404o USAa Tel: 912 447 6622n Fax: 912 201 0096r sales@islandco.com www.islandco.com  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- news:3VaA9.31$lV3.1011758@news.cpqcorp.net...p >wC > David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3DD083DF.288CBEDF@fsi.net>...e > >ICUSC wrote:f > >>8 > >> Just FYI, 70% of our system sales this year to date > >> are openvms.e > >>K > >> So I don't know if it's our advertising (we push Tru64 as much as VMS)M > but 5 > >> seems there is a lot of action in the VMS arena.r > >>! > >> Anyone wish to comment why ?. > >> >m > snip >i > >lI > >As much as I detest PowerPoint, I would suggest preparing a case-studyoF > >of ICUSC for presentation to HP management as a model of how it CAN > >work, given half a chance.) > >  >kJ > What's not working?  Island is selling/reselling VMS systems, and that'sH > good for Island, and that's good for us.  They can focus on selling to those K > who may only want a single small system, or a used system.  And if what IwD > hear in this newgroup is any indication, they do a good job at it. >-L > I think what he was asking is what was up with the 70-30 split between VMSJ > and Tru64.  I think the probable answer is that customers recognize that VMSnI > will be here for the long term, and Tru64 will be moving to HP-UX.  The L > follow up question really is has their total volume dropped to create thatI > mix, or has their volume increased or stayed the same, while the mix ofe > systems has moved to VMS.  >  >g >e >I >  >e   ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:30:39 GMTl5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>s Subject: Re: VMS Sales3 Message-ID: <3VaA9.31$lV3.1011758@news.cpqcorp.net>a  A David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3DD083DF.288CBEDF@fsi.net>...e
 >ICUSC wrote:  >>6 >> Just FYI, 70% of our system sales this year to date >> are openvms.d >>I >> So I don't know if it's our advertising (we push Tru64 as much as VMS)n buta3 >> seems there is a lot of action in the VMS arena.n >> >> Anyone wish to comment why ?  >>   snip   >nG >As much as I detest PowerPoint, I would suggest preparing a case-studylD >of ICUSC for presentation to HP management as a model of how it CAN >work, given half a chance.t >b  H What's not working?  Island is selling/reselling VMS systems, and that'sL good for Island, and that's good for us.  They can focus on selling to thoseI who may only want a single small system, or a used system.  And if what InB hear in this newgroup is any indication, they do a good job at it.  J I think what he was asking is what was up with the 70-30 split between VMSL and Tru64.  I think the probable answer is that customers recognize that VMSG will be here for the long term, and Tru64 will be moving to HP-UX.  The J follow up question really is has their total volume dropped to create thatG mix, or has their volume increased or stayed the same, while the mix of  systems has moved to VMS.m   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:48:05 -0500l From: "ICUSC" <sales@hpaq.net> Subject: Re: VMS Sales/ Message-ID: <ut3bm7fmmeu1f8@news.supernews.com>    Tomi  K We only started looking at the figures this year - new accounting system ton handle bigger transactions  K But from memory and looking at our project system, I would say system salesxH in general were about 40% of total sales and of those sales it was about% 50/50 Unix/VMS for both 2001 and 2000*G Before 2000 requires DAT tapes and that is where I draw the line - justb" there for the IRS if necessary :0(     Hey, can't complain 'eh ?i   DT  . "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> wrote in message3 news:CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIIEPOGAAA.tom@kednos.com...u. > Whar were the percentages in previous years? >s > >-----Original Message-----V& > >From: ICUSC [mailto:sales@hpaq.net]* > >Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 4:46 PM > >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > >Subject: VMS Saless > >t > >t6 > >Just FYI, 70% of our system sales this year to date > >are openvms.s > >lI > >So I don't know if it's our advertising (we push Tru64 as much as VMS)  but 3 > >seems there is a lot of action in the VMS arena.[ > >o > >Anyone wish to comment why ?o > >eL > >My guess is that our prices (though not fantastic) are more realistic andG > >Users feel they can afford to buy products at a more market orientedl price. > >OR AM I DREAMINGp > >  > >sF > >It just goes to show (in my opinion) that if VMS Hardware was cheap enough,e" > >more users would stick with it. > > L > >Commodity pricing on VMS products was always massively over inflated, andL > >maybe this is a good enough sign to HP/AQ that reality speaks louder than > >specialised markets.p > >/ > >David (having a sane moment)t > >c > >  > >s > >r > >c > >--o > >Island Computers US Corp. > >2700 Gregory St, Ste 180P > >Savannah GA 31404, USA  > >Tel: (00) 1 912 447 662 > >Fax: (00) 1 912 201 0096h > >sales@hpaq.nete > >www.islandco.comr > >m > >u > >---) > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.i= > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). D > >Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002 > >e > ---r( > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.< > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).C > Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002i >n   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:55:19 -0500r. From: Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> Subject: Re: VMS Sales. Message-ID: <3DD15CA7.47CB71B9@pressenter.com>  
 Island wrote:  > J > Actually, in a world of depressed markets we have seen a 30% increase in4 > revenue, marked by around 50% increase in systems. > M > And these are not the PWS style small systems, they are primarily DS20e and 
 > ES40 boxes.o    E Digital... no.. uh Compaq... no... HP... well whatever you call them, E they really hit a "sweet spot" with the ES40s. Good performance, goodg price.... Just darn nice boxes.f  H With VMS and it's clustering... It'd take a lot make me want to put in a> Wildfire machine as opposed to a cluster of 3 or 4 or 5 ES4Xs.     Lyndon   -- -G My opinions are mine and mine alone. They seldom align with those of myo	 employer.s    H The only good thing about putting the cart before the horse is you don't have to look at the horse's butt.   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 22:07:13 -0600s1 From: "David J. Dachtera" <djesys.nospam@fsi.net>9 Subject: Re: VMS Sales' Message-ID: <3DD1CFF1.C9D28667@fsi.net>a   Fred Kleinsorge wrote: > C > David J. Dachtera wrote in message <3DD083DF.288CBEDF@fsi.net>...y > >ICUSC wrote:  > >>8 > >> Just FYI, 70% of our system sales this year to date > >> are openvms.t > >>K > >> So I don't know if it's our advertising (we push Tru64 as much as VMS)c > butr5 > >> seems there is a lot of action in the VMS arena.s > >>! > >> Anyone wish to comment why ?s > >> >  > snip >  > >oI > >As much as I detest PowerPoint, I would suggest preparing a case-study F > >of ICUSC for presentation to HP management as a model of how it CAN > >work, given half a chance.  > >@ > J > What's not working?  Island is selling/reselling VMS systems, and that's+ > good for Island, and that's good for us. p  C ...and if HP/Q adopted a similar stance, imagine how much BETTER it  would be for HP/Q...  $ > They can focus on selling to those= > who may only want a single small system, or a used system. u  C ...leaving HP/Q's hands free to concentrate on the "bigger 'fish'".u  F Suppose HP/Q were to subsidize their efforts with advertising dollars.   Can you say, "ROI"?n   Sure, I knew ya could...   > And if what IkD > hear in this newgroup is any indication, they do a good job at it.  D Imagine how much better they could do with some agressive partnering from HP/Q...   > [snip]   -- o David J. Dachterai dba DJE Systemse http://www.djesys.com/  ( Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page: http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/N   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:50:56 -0500(' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>, Subject: RE: VMS SalesT Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660B49@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Lyndon,   H >>> well whatever you call them, they really hit a "sweet spot" with the@ ES40s. Good performance, good price.... Just darn nice boxes.<<<  H Yep. I'm doing large VAX to Alpha migration in Toronto right now and theF target platform hardware is 3 ES45's, each has dual 1.25Ghz CPU's, 4Gb. memory and each are connected to 2GB SAN ..=20  F Software - VMS V7.3-1 with TCPware V5.6 and latest Oracle Rdb V7.1.0.3  E Great fun and I am looking forward to see what the run times of a fewoE big jobs this Customer has i.e. they are moving from VAX 7620's (6 ofe& them actually in large CI cluster).=20  E One test I did with Cobol V2.8 install on my DEC3000 - took about 6-7 A minutes. On these ES45's with the 2GB SAN stuff, it was about 6-7  seconds.   :-)t   Regardst  
 Kerry Main Senior Consultantt Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicesr Voice: 613-592-4660c Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)        -----Original Message-----8 From: Lyndon Bartels [mailto:lbartels@pressenter.com]=20 Sent: November 12, 2002 7:55 PMa To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com" Subject: Re: VMS Sales    
 Island wrote:  >=20J > Actually, in a world of depressed markets we have seen a 30% increase=207 > in revenue, marked by around 50% increase in systems.e >=20F > And these are not the PWS style small systems, they are primarily=20 > DS20e and ES40 boxes.-    E Digital... no.. uh Compaq... no... HP... well whatever you call them,kE they really hit a "sweet spot" with the ES40s. Good performance, goodg price.... Just darn nice boxes.m  H With VMS and it's clustering... It'd take a lot make me want to put in a> Wildfire machine as opposed to a cluster of 3 or 4 or 5 ES4Xs.     Lyndon   --=20eG My opinions are mine and mine alone. They seldom align with those of mys	 employer.d    H The only good thing about putting the cart before the horse is you don't! have to look at the horse's butt.s   ------------------------------  + Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:01:49 -0600 (CST)- From: sms@antinode.orgD Subject: VMS V7.2-1 v. Exabyte EXB-8505XL and compression/compaction) Message-ID: <02111219014904@antinode.org>g  G    Ok.  As my XP1000 has made the transition from perky to paperweight,h? I thought I'd try enabling compression/compaction on my Exabyte E EXB8505XL 8mm tape drive ("device type EXABYTE EXB-8505SMBANSH2", and D revision level 0793, according to SCSI_INFO), on my AlpSta 200 4/233/ running VMS V7.2-1.  (It's in a nice Sun case.)d  H    Naturally, /MEDIA_FORMAT = COMPACTION has no obvious effect when usedE on BACKUP, INITIALIZE, and/or MOUNT.  (Instead of green, the activityvH LED should be amber when compression is enabled.)  Is MKDRIVER incapableF of dealing with this feature of this drive?  Is there a good method to1 fake it?  Is everything all better in VMS V7.3-1?   H ------------------------------------------------------------------------  4    Steven M. Schweda               (+1) 651-699-98183    382 South Warwick Street        sms@antinode.org     Saint Paul  MN  55105-2547    ------------------------------  # Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:05:26 GMT 1 From: "Terry C. Shannon" <terryshannon@attbi.com>  Subject: Re: Voting Systems ?a* Message-ID: <VM8A9.7389$QZ.1201@sccrnsc02>  . "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote in messageB news:0eXx9.200032$%h2.7624@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com... >o< > "Bob Koehler" <koehler@encompasserve.org> wrote in message/ > news:FP+0Z3xbqv9y@eisner.encompasserve.org...U9 > > In article <3DC81452.C9A9BCBA@videotron.ca>, JF Mezeih( > <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:L > > >> > the unlikely event of a sudden equipment failure.  The voting units > use aLJ > > >> > form the Microsoft Windows operating system, the most widely used
 > software > > >> > in the world. > > >eH > > > A form of Windows ? would that be Windows-CE ? Since Windows is so > unreliableK > > > and so hackable, I wonder why they were stupid enough to mention whate it > wasr > > > running ?& > > A > >    Now you know why the feds had to back off on the law suit.  >h >mI > Sure, otherwise Bill Gates would have one 1 Senate seat in each state'se > election today.  >s  ! And Melinda would have the other!u   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:08:20 -0500e' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> > Subject: RE: What EV am I running? (family name for processor)T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D98CC@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>  : Re: figuring out what type processor the system is using -   Here is another way -c   $ show cpu/full (full output)   H $ pipe show cpu/full/out=3Dtemp.tmp |search temp.tmp type (quick way for
 EV info only)e   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultanty Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Services; Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)i       -----Original Message-----< From: Robert Deininger [mailto:rdeininger@mindspring.com]=20 Sent: November 12, 2002 7:41 AMy To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com > Subject: Re: What EV am I running? (family name for processor)    = In article <1d08b916.0211120431.3d10da03@posting.google.com>,i& mb301@hotmail.com (Mark Bowman) wrote:  C >Does anyknow how to find out what type of cpu you have on openVMS?A >g >In Tru64 Unix its like this:- >w ># sizer -implverr >EV5   From a priv'd account:   $ ANALYZE/SYSTEM SDA> CLUE CONFIG  C This is the most complete information I know of, in partly-readablee form.a   ------------------------------   Date: 12 Nov 2002 20:56 CSTu' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) > Subject: RE: What EV am I running? (family name for processor)- Message-ID: <12NOV200220562391@gerg.tamu.edu>t   In article <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D98CC@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes...; }Re: figuring out what type processor the system is using -h }  }Here is another way - }  }$ show cpu/full (full output) } I }$ pipe show cpu/full/out=3Dtemp.tmp |search temp.tmp type (quick way fori }EV info only) }  }Kerry Maine  G Is this a new filed for VMS V7.3 or later? There is no such informationl
 on VMS 7.2-1.n  ) $ pipe sh cpu/full | search sys$pipe typei8 IEEE floating point operations and data types supported.  
 No type info.    --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:39:31 -0500T' From: "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com>s> Subject: RE: What EV am I running? (family name for processor)T Message-ID: <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF402660B48@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>   Carl,   = Some of the command qualifiers were added in V7.3. Reference:eH http://www.openvms.compaq.com/doc/73FINAL/6620/6620pro_001.html#dcl_comm _sec_1  # On new SHOW CPU qualifiers in V7.3:nA The following new qualifiers have been added: /EXACT, /HIGHLIGHT,o# /OUTPUT, /PAGE, /SEARCH, and /WRAP.y  H Note - I could not find when the /FULL qualifier was added, but it is inE V7.3 as well as V7.3-1. The $ SHOW CPU /FULL really does have lots ofs useful info.  ) $ pipe sh cpu/full | search sys$pipe typee. 		Type...........: EV4 (21064), Pass 3 or EV4s  D Works fine on my V7.3-1 systems. Above shows output on DEC3000 M400.   Regards   
 Kerry Main Senior Consultant  Hewlett-Packard (Canada) Co.! Consulting & Integration Servicest Voice: 613-592-4660  Fax   : 613-591-4477 Email: kerryDOTmain@hpDOTcom-     (remove the DOT's and replace with "."'s)      -----Original Message-----1 From: Carl Perkins [mailto:carl@gerg.tamu.edu]=20t Sent: November 12, 2002 9:56 PM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come> Subject: RE: What EV am I running? (family name for processor)    
 In articleH <BE56C50EA024184DAF48F0B9A47F5CF4023D98CC@kaoexc01.americas.cpqcorp.net>- , "Main, Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes...a; }Re: figuring out what type processor the system is using -  }=20 }Here is another way - }=20 }$ show cpu/full (full output) }=20G }$ pipe show cpu/full/out=3D3Dtemp.tmp |search temp.tmp type (quick way, for }EV info only) }=20  }Kerry Mains  G Is this a new filed for VMS V7.3 or later? There is no such informationm
 on VMS 7.2-1.s  ) $ pipe sh cpu/full | search sys$pipe type 8 IEEE floating point operations and data types supported.  
 No type info.i   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 23:39:55 -0500W0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>> Subject: Re: What EV am I running? (family name for processor)/ Message-ID: <3DD1D795.B8389EA6@vl.videotron.ca>a  $ Kerry" <Kerry.Main@hp.com> writes...  > }$ show cpu/full (full output)   ## VELO, a MicroVAX II H Multiprocessing is DISABLED. Uniprocessing synchronization image loaded.   PRIMARY CPU = 00   CPU 00 is in RUN state/ Current Process: _TNA3:          PID = 20801720h Capabilities of this CPU:e         PRIMARY QUORUM RUN- Processes which can only execute on this CPU:tC         CONFIGURE        PID = 20800087  Reason: PRIMARY Capability  ##  K So, where in that output can I see if my all-mighty microvax II is an alpha 
 EV68 or EV7 ?C   :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)k  N P.S. one could debate whether a Microvax II can "RUN". Shouldn't it say "WALK"	 instead ?c   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.627 ************************