1 INFO-VAX	Thu, 14 Nov 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 629       Contents:# Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study # RE: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study # Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study # Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study # Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study # RE: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study  Re: Atlant's rants...  Re: Atlant's rants...  Re: Atlant's rants...  Re: Atlant's rants...  Re: Atlant's rants...  Re: Atlant's rants...  Re: Atlant's rants...  Re: Atlant's rants...  Re: Atlant's rants...  Re: Atlant's rants... , Re: Can XFC be used on 2 of 3 cluster nodes? Re: CDE GUI died...  Re: CDE GUI died...  Re: CDROM detection  Re: CDROM detection  Re: CSWS hangs Re: CSWS hangs Re: CSWS hangs
 DATA RECOVERY  Re: Detecting non-Files-11 disk  Re: Email Filter Re: Formatting hard disk(s)  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: Happy Veteran's Day  Re: HP Advocacy Site Re: HP Advocacy Site Re: HP Advocacy Site Re: HP keyboard problems& Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbye& Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbye! Need GCC binaries for VAX VMS 5.5 % Re: Need GCC binaries for VAX VMS 5.5 % Re: Need GCC binaries for VAX VMS 5.5  RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping& RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping and the FDA0 OT: non-stop computing == alternative lifestyle?, Re: parsing file name (refer to time thread) Re: Patch installation  Re: Slow performance with BACKUP Re: system calls, RE time  Re: system calls, RE time  Re: system calls, RE time  Re: system calls, RE time ( RE: Vax Macro Porting - Still Struggling8 Re: VMS @ 25 --- Mark Gorham's Presentation at HPETS2002 VMS Perl Help! Re: VMS Perl Help! Re: RE: VMS Sales  Re: RE: VMS Sales  Re: RE: VMS Sales  Re: RE: VMS Sales 
 Re: VMS Sales 
 Re: VMS Sales 
 Re: VMS Sales  Re: RE: VMS Sales  Re: RE: VMS Sales 
 Re: VMS Sales 5 Re: What EV am I running? (family name for processor)   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:13:05 +0100 ( From: "Simon Brown" <simon.brown@kns.ch>, Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study3 Message-ID: <aquf91$d5nu4$1@ID-6220.news.dfncis.de>   L Yes, also where was the box 'keep the Alpha chip you great bunch of mindlessK idiots', and where was 'OpenVMS - I will stay with it for at least the next 2 25 years dumb-nuts and not migrate to HP-UX ever'?   We should be told :-)  --& Simon Brown, CH-7031 Laax, Switzerland
 www.hb9drv.ch   = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ) news:3DD2B993.7A2FE090@vl.videotron.ca...  > Ken Farmer wrote:  >  [chop] > # > Wow. Even available in franais !  > J > I have to say that the questions/possible answers seemed designed to get? > customer' feelings as opposed to trying to justify something.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:18:55 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>, Subject: RE: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study0 Message-ID: <01C28B17.3E5A2900@sulfer.icius.com>  G I suspect we have to accept the Alpha's gone. Yes, it's better, but the G team's split up, the momentum's gone, and a lot of time has passed with D no progress. To bring it back would cost a fortune setting things upC again and they'd lose more time while doing it. Then they'd have to  remember where they left off.   B I would like a "you're bunch of mindless idiots for killing Alpha" button though.   Shane    -----Original Message------ From: Simon Brown [mailto:simon.brown@kns.ch] * Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:13 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com , Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study    C Yes, also where was the box 'keep the Alpha chip you great bunch of  mindlessF idiots', and where was 'OpenVMS - I will stay with it for at least the next2 25 years dumb-nuts and not migrate to HP-UX ever'?   We should be told :-)  --& Simon Brown, CH-7031 Laax, Switzerland
 www.hb9drv.ch   = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in message ) news:3DD2B993.7A2FE090@vl.videotron.ca...  > Ken Farmer wrote:  >  [chop] > % > Wow. Even available in fran=E7ais !  > H > I have to say that the questions/possible answers seemed designed to = get ? > customer' feelings as opposed to trying to justify something.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:44:12 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>, Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study/ Message-ID: <3DD2B993.7A2FE090@vl.videotron.ca>    Ken Farmer wrote:  > G > Rich Marcello requests your participation in a survey presented by HP " > involving the future of OpenVMS. > 5 > http://www.openvms.org/pages.php?page=OpenVMS_Study   ! Wow. Even available in franais !   H I have to say that the questions/possible answers seemed designed to get= customer' feelings as opposed to trying to justify something.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:37:47 GMT $ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU, Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study8 Message-ID: <00A16EA2.51688289@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  ^ In article <aquf91$d5nu4$1@ID-6220.news.dfncis.de>, "Simon Brown" <simon.brown@kns.ch> writes:M >Yes, also where was the box 'keep the Alpha chip you great bunch of mindless L >idiots', and where was 'OpenVMS - I will stay with it for at least the next3 >25 years dumb-nuts and not migrate to HP-UX ever'?    It's labeled "Other"   Hope this helps!   -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:33:11 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>, Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study/ Message-ID: <3DD2EF36.A938D974@vl.videotron.ca>    Shane Smith wrote: > I > I suspect we have to accept the Alpha's gone. Yes, it's better, but the I > team's split up, the momentum's gone, and a lot of time has passed with  > no progress.    5 Lets ASSUME the following for the sake of discussion:   T Intel fails to garner momentum for IA64, and gives it back to HP to do as it wishes.  K Alpha still has the compilers. Alpha still has VMS and Tru64. They could go G for another process shrink/speed bump for EV7 and EV68 (for the smaller N systems) while they "reboot"  the team that will look at te next generation.    K Would all the goodies that had been planned for EV8 still be really what is  needed ?  N If the alpha architecture is superior and allows for faster update/improvemntsM in design, then it would be to HP's advantage to choose Alpha instead of IA64 B as its proprietary chip that will compate against Power and Sparc.  M Yes, it would be a difficult decision to make, but I am not 100% certain that ! Alpha would be so hard to reboot.    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:42:38 -0800 $ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>, Subject: RE: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study0 Message-ID: <01C28B33.B8584220@sulfer.icius.com>  F You may well be right, JF, but I do think it unlikely. Still, it wouldF be ironic if Alpha benefited from bits of IA-64, now it's owned by one' of the companies involved. Full circle.    Shane    -----Original Message-----7 From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca] * Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:33 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com , Subject: Re: 2002 Worldwide HP OpenVMS Study     Shane Smith wrote: > I > I suspect we have to accept the Alpha's gone. Yes, it's better, but the I > team's split up, the momentum's gone, and a lot of time has passed with  > no progress.    5 Lets ASSUME the following for the sake of discussion:   F Intel fails to garner momentum for IA64, and gives it back to HP to do
 as it wishes.   H Alpha still has the compilers. Alpha still has VMS and Tru64. They could goG for another process shrink/speed bump for EV7 and EV68 (for the smaller @ systems) while they "reboot"  the team that will look at te next
 generation.     H Would all the goodies that had been planned for EV8 still be really what is needed ?  ; If the alpha architecture is superior and allows for faster  update/improvemntsH in design, then it would be to HP's advantage to choose Alpha instead of IA64B as its proprietary chip that will compate against Power and Sparc.  H Yes, it would be a difficult decision to make, but I am not 100% certain that! Alpha would be so hard to reboot.    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:58:08 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Atlant's rants...0 Message-ID: <00A16EA5.2CD954EA@SendSpamHere.ORG>  c In article <3DD29081.84452F90@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:  >G Everhart wrote: > * >(Nice of you to deem my comments "rants".* >I'll also be happy to check back with you* >in a few years and we can compare notes.) >  > ? >> The term "liberal" originally meant one who favored liberty. & >> Jefferson and others were so known.C >> Today however, many of us who believe in those values are called G >> Libertarian, because the word 'liberal' has come to mean an advocate C >> of government and social control of the individual, and lost its ? >> original meaning.  This gets confusing to some because there ? >> are also "traditionalist" people who believe in governmental 0 >> control. They are not the same breed of cats. >>@ >> So when you see that the vote for various groups, etc., was aB >> cause pushed by 'liberals', remember that such is irrelevant to >> the modern terms. ... > 2 >Sorry, but while I might accept your argument for5 >the rights as originally written-down in the Bill of 1 >Rights, there's no doubt in most folks mind that 2 >"Miranda Rights" were a product of an unabashadly, >*LIBERAL* Supreme Court led by Earl Warren.3 >Of course, many people who are foolishly illiberal 5 >now think it is improper to warn folks of the rights 3 >provided in the Bill of Rights; they'll never need & >that court-appointed attorney, right? >  > * >Women's access to the Ballot was provided0 >by a bunch of folks who would now be deamonized1 >as "Ultra-Radical Feminists" or even "Feminazis" / >in Rush-speak. Men, go home and ask your women 9 >if they're willing to give up that right just because it 0 >was secured for them by (shudder!) "Feminists". >  > 2 >Blacks' access to the Ballot was written into the0 >Constitution by a bunch of Republicans who were5 >willing to go to war over this and other issues, but 0 >thanks to Jim Crow Laws, Blacks actually had no4 >practical access to the ballot until the 1964 Civil- >Rights Act, passed by *DEMOCRATIC LIBERALS*. 5 >And it is that one action that rapidly converted the . >Confederacy from a reliable Democratic-voting+ >block to a very reliable Republican-voting / >block. If the Confederacy would, they'd surely 4 >repeal the 1964 Civil Rights Act. And they may yet;- >they've certainly won lawsuits to weaken it.  > 5 >(I realize that it's hard to even *FIND* an African- 2 >American professional worker up there in ZKO, but1 >come to Boston and I'll introduce you to the any . >of the several who work in my little 8-person- >work-group; you can ask them how they'd feel  >about this right.)  >  > / >Now, let's talk about access to contraception. . >As you'll recall, contraception was basically+ >illegal or very-heavily-restricted in many + >places in America before 1964. That's when * >Planned Parenthood of Connecticut brought) >suit against Griswold (IIRC, the State's ! >Attorney General). Yes, *PLANNED  >PARENTHOOD*, a *LIBERAL, NOT & >LIBERTARIAN* group. And they won, and+ >now you or I can walk into a store and buy + >contraception without having to claim it's ( >solely "for the prevention of disease". >  > , >Shall we also discuss the 40-hour work week- >and labor unions? Or the end of child labor? / >Or the few protections you have against having 3 >your hand chopped off in some monstrous industrial 	 >machine?  >  >Or Social Security and FDR? > " >Or Medicaid and Medicare and LBJ? > % >Not a LIBERTARIAN idea in the bunch.  > 1 >All of these ideas are *LIBERAL*, brought to you  >*BY LIBERALS*.. > 	 >LIBERAL.  >  >Not Conservative, LIBERAL.  > , >And you'll miss them all when they're gone. >  >Atlant  >  >   I ... care to comment on who brought upon us that wonderous task every 15th I or thereabouts of the month of April?  Take that away and I wouldn't miss 9 any of the aforementioned since none of them apply to me.  --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:55:35 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Atlant's rants...2 Message-ID: <s9-cnaSUzb6vM0-gXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>  K "G Everhart" <ge@gce.com> wrote in message news:3DD2862E.5080004@gce.com... > > The term "liberal" originally meant one who favored liberty.% > Jefferson and others were so known. B > Today however, many of us who believe in those values are calledF > Libertarian, because the word 'liberal' has come to mean an advocate5 > of government and social control of the individual,   F Utter bullshit.  If you want to find people advocating 'government andK social control of the individual' look to the religious right, not the ACLU F (one of the favorite targets of those who would criticize 'liberals').  J Liberals believe that government should protect the individual's rights toL life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  In this they ride herd on bothG public and private entities (government and corporations) in a way that K these (impersonal) entities often find intrusive.  Some of these intrusions I may in fact be unnecessary or even become perverted by special interests, C but the liberal agenda in these areas is crystal clear:  provide an E environment where *all* people have the opportunity to reach whatever  potential they have.  F Libertarians may share some of the same views, but seem more driven byH distrust of government than by the concept that everyone has value (muchH more a 'sink or swim' approach rather than one that would help those whoC would otherwise sink).  Thus they seem more conscious of government H intrusion into not only their lives ("Damn taxes!") but their activitiesJ ("Damn labor unions!") than of the ends which such intrusions serve.  It'sJ easy to be a Libertarian when you're a vigorous swimmer, but the idea thatL those who sink are just getting what they deserve sticks in my craw too much to allow me to be one.  J I won't presume to characterize what passes for a 'conservative' nowadays,9 but would be curious to see one characterize him/herself.    - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:29:19 GMT $ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: Atlant's rants...8 Message-ID: <00A16E98.C09AC9C8@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  S In article <00A16EA5.2CD954EA@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  >> > J >... care to comment on who brought upon us that wonderous task every 15th( >or thereabouts of the month of April?    M Well, if memory serves the income tax came in (other than as an emergency war N measure) in 1903, which would have been the Theodore Roosevelt administration.K He was a Republican, but hard to categorize in current liberal/conservative H terms.  (A conservationist who loved to hunt; a "trust-busting" child of wealth.)  # >Take that away and I wouldn't miss : >any of the aforementioned since none of them apply to me.  3 Not even the right to a lawyer if you get arrested?    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:56:18 -0500 0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: Atlant's rants.../ Message-ID: <3DD2BC68.E25BA3C8@vl.videotron.ca>    G Everhart wrote:  > > > The term "liberal" originally meant one who favored liberty.% > Jefferson and others were so known. B > Today however, many of us who believe in those values are calledF > Libertarian, because the word 'liberal' has come to mean an advocateB > of government and social control of the individual, and lost its > original meaning.     N Since this is comp.os.vms instead of us.comp.os.vms, you should have added "in1 the USA, the term "liberal" originally meant...."   F The term has different meanings in different countries. In Canada, theH "Liberal" party is seen as middle, while the New-Democrats are left, andH Alliance are right. In the USA, with only 2 parties, it seems to be more% extreme definitions of left or right.   K Liberal can also mean someone not stuck up in ancient traditions and is not I affraid to change. The Queen of England is conservative, definitely not a N "liberal". And this is said without any political implications (the queen must! remain a-political at all times).   N In canada, the "conservative" party even had to change it name to "ProgressiveH Conservative" (an oxymoron) in order to try to downplay its "old" image.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:13:12 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Atlant's rants...0 Message-ID: <00A16EB8.0AF45B1B@SendSpamHere.ORG>  _ In article <00A16E98.C09AC9C8@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes: T >In article <00A16EA5.2CD954EA@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: >>>  >>K >>... care to comment on who brought upon us that wonderous task every 15th ) >>or thereabouts of the month of April?    > N >Well, if memory serves the income tax came in (other than as an emergency warO >measure) in 1903, which would have been the Theodore Roosevelt administration. L >He was a Republican, but hard to categorize in current liberal/conservativeI >terms.  (A conservationist who loved to hunt; a "trust-busting" child of 	 >wealth.)   * http://www.adena.com/adena/usa/hs/hs43.htm    $ >>Take that away and I wouldn't miss; >>any of the aforementioned since none of them apply to me.  > 4 >Not even the right to a lawyer if you get arrested?  D For what, so I can puke up more money into the trough of corruption? --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:47:00 GMT $ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: Atlant's rants...8 Message-ID: <00A16EA3.9AE74E62@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  b In article <3DD2BC68.E25BA3C8@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: >G Everhart wrote: >>  ? >> The term "liberal" originally meant one who favored liberty. & >> Jefferson and others were so known.C >> Today however, many of us who believe in those values are called G >> Libertarian, because the word 'liberal' has come to mean an advocate C >> of government and social control of the individual, and lost its  >> original meaning. >  > O >Since this is comp.os.vms instead of us.comp.os.vms, you should have added "in 2 >the USA, the term "liberal" originally meant...." > G >The term has different meanings in different countries. In Canada, the I >"Liberal" party is seen as middle, while the New-Democrats are left, and I >Alliance are right. In the USA, with only 2 parties, it seems to be more & >extreme definitions of left or right.  M You'd think, wouldn't you?  But what seems to have been happening is that the N Republicans have allowed themselves to be pushed far right by their fealty to K the Christian right and NRA, and the Democrats, triangulating, have largely O gone to the center or to the right of center. For example, Lieberman's position E on censorship of sex and violence in entertainment films is clearly a  right-wing position.  F (Positions of individual politicians may not entirely line up with theL positions of their parties, and  there's a spectrum of issues to be left andO right on.  But quite a lot of prominent Democrats have ideology that would have N been perfectly at home in the Republican party 25 years ago.)  This has openedN up some space for the Green party, but it didn't do itself any national favorsN by running Nader and - some think - splitting the Gore vote and electing Bush;M they needed to get local elected officials and build an infrastructure first,  as the Christian Right did.     L >Liberal can also mean someone not stuck up in ancient traditions and is notJ >affraid to change. The Queen of England is conservative, definitely not aO >"liberal". And this is said without any political implications (the queen must " >remain a-political at all times).  M In fact, "conservative" is now often used to mean "radical right."  "Liberal" O is often used to mean "demon from hell."  The political discourse in the US has  been deeply polluted.      -- Alan    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:49:23 GMT $ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: Atlant's rants...8 Message-ID: <00A16EA3.EFCE92A0@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  S In article <00A16EB8.0AF45B1B@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes: ` >In article <00A16E98.C09AC9C8@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:U >>In article <00A16EA5.2CD954EA@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:  >>>> >>> L >>>... care to comment on who brought upon us that wonderous task every 15th* >>>or thereabouts of the month of April?   >>O >>Well, if memory serves the income tax came in (other than as an emergency war P >>measure) in 1903, which would have been the Theodore Roosevelt administration.M >>He was a Republican, but hard to categorize in current liberal/conservative J >>terms.  (A conservationist who loved to hunt; a "trust-busting" child of
 >>wealth.) > + >http://www.adena.com/adena/usa/hs/hs43.htm   ? Oops.  Memory didn't serve; it was 1913, not 1903.  Never mind.    >  > % >>>Take that away and I wouldn't miss < >>>any of the aforementioned since none of them apply to me. >>5 >>Not even the right to a lawyer if you get arrested?  > E >For what, so I can puke up more money into the trough of corruption?   # Sorry, forgot who I was talking to.    -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:11:49 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Atlant's rants...2 Message-ID: <2MqdnVc6DMy9U0-gXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>  , <VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message* news:00A16EA5.2CD954EA@SendSpamHere.ORG...   ...   K > ... care to comment on who brought upon us that wonderous task every 15th K > or thereabouts of the month of April?  Take that away and I wouldn't miss ; > any of the aforementioned since none of them apply to me.   L Exactly the kind of Libertarian attitude that makes many of us consider many of you self-centered assholes.   - bill   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:00:45 GMT " From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG Subject: Re: Atlant's rants...0 Message-ID: <00A16EC7.118FEAB9@SendSpamHere.ORG>  _ In article <2MqdnVc6DMy9U0-gXTWc2Q@metrocast.net>, "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> writes:  > - ><VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message + >news:00A16EA5.2CD954EA@SendSpamHere.ORG...  >  >....  > L >> ... care to comment on who brought upon us that wonderous task every 15thL >> or thereabouts of the month of April?  Take that away and I wouldn't miss< >> any of the aforementioned since none of them apply to me. > M >Exactly the kind of Libertarian attitude that makes many of us consider many  >of you self-centered assholes.   L At the rate that the So-so security and medicare systems are being pilfered,J I'll not see a cent when my turn comes 'round so why shouldn't I feel thisJ way?  I'd rather take *my* money and provide for *my* latter-years welfareK myself.  I don't need a top heavy gov't beaurocracy skimming off the major- K ity of my money providing and me me nothing of any substantial vaule in its  return.    --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM              5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"     ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:30:03 -0500 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: Atlant's rants...2 Message-ID: <veadndAeDM7qfU-gXTWcpg@metrocast.net>  5 "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message , news:s9-cnaSUzb6vM0-gXTWc2Q@metrocast.net...   ...    > ("Damn labor unions!")  ; Bad example, given the context:  substitute ("Damn OSHA!").    - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Nov 2002 00:35:44 GMT- From: hoffman@xdelta.hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman) 5 Subject: Re: Can XFC be used on 2 of 3 cluster nodes? * Message-ID: <aqur50$in3$4@web1.cup.hp.com>  g In article <7NOV02.21201847@kort.waisman.wisc.ed>, karcher@kort.waisman.wisc.edu (Carl Karcher) writes:   H   Where you get into "fun" here is the testing and the version-span, notG   specifically with XFC.  A cluster spanning V7.3-1 with V6.2 is simply G   not supported.  If you want to try this, make certain you have all of F   the mandatory ECO kits for OpenVMS VAX V6.2 installed.  (Given that G   there is no particular reason not to upgrade from OpenVMS VAX V6.2 to D   V7.3, I'd probably start with that -- as has been cited elsewhere,H   OpenVMS VAX V7.0 was not a major upgrade.  With this upgrade, you will#   be in a supported configuration.)    H :Can XFC be used on two Alpha nodes (both at VMS 7.3-1 with VCC_FLAGS=2)B :in a three node cluster if the 3rd node doesn't mount any cluster :shared disks      Yes.    I   XFC can also be used if the third node DOES mount and DOES share disks.   H   XFC can and does correctly interoperate with OpenVMS hosts using VIOC.  I   The OpenVMS VAX host will NOT be able to particularly share ODS-5 disks 2   that are using ODS-5 semantics and capabilities.  I :Or, must ALL nodes in the cluster be have XFC enabled in order for it to  :be used on ANY node?      No.     N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.com    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:45:19 -0800 + From: "Mike Scott" <mscott_NOSPAM@axys.com>  Subject: Re: CDE GUI died... Message-ID: <3dd2ad51@nubby2.>   Hi Fred,  @ -Graphics card is: Permedia-2 "PowerStorm 4D10T"  (sound right?)+ - Error log entry at time of GUI crash was: I 6-NOV-2002 00:19:27.0 %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, B virtual address=0000000000BFFFFC, PC=000000000002B130, PS=00000000I Request opcode 76 is ignored due to internal runtime error c for client 5  (#error = 1)K This was followed by a nasty stackdump - pretty sure you don't want this... 0 - Didn't record surviving DECW$ processes -sorryA - There has been no environment change in months... -honest! ;-{)    Thanks for your help here.  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- news:%rxA9.31$Op5.1279086@news.cpqcorp.net... 9 > Not really enough information provided to take a guess.  >  > What is the graphics card? > 1 > What is the contents of DECW$SERVER_0_ERROR.LOG  > F > When this happens, what DECW$* processes (if any) are still running? > L > Was there *any* type of environment change?  Even if you think it might be > unrelated. >    ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:09:47 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>  Subject: Re: CDE GUI died...3 Message-ID: <%rxA9.31$Op5.1279086@news.cpqcorp.net>   7 Not really enough information provided to take a guess.    What is the graphics card?  / What is the contents of DECW$SERVER_0_ERROR.LOG   D When this happens, what DECW$* processes (if any) are still running?  J Was there *any* type of environment change?  Even if you think it might be
 unrelated.      3 Mike Scott wrote in message <3dd179d7$1@nubby2.>... I >I've got a Compaq Alphastation with factory installed v7.2-1 (never been J >ECO'd).  It has been purring along for years, yet twice in the past week,I >the GUI up-and-died on me.  All that was remaining was a gray screen and F >movable mouse pointer.  I could telnet in and RESTART the GUI, but of course6 >lost control of the previously running apps -sigh....J >I've been researching, but can't find a common source (and resolution) toK >this problem.  One VMS guru I spoke to has seen this behaviour in the past K >(he offered me the correct RESTART command).  Another guru had never heard  >of such a problem. G >I was actively using the workstation, so I don't thing the problem was I >screensaver-related.  Also during each event, I was not running the same K >app.  I have been running the same few apps on this box for years.  No new I >hardware of software changes in many months.  Anyone have some pieces to 
 >this puzzle? 
 >-with thanks  >Mike Scott  > K >btw: If ECOing is the answer, which kit specifically addresses this issue? 5 >I'd rather not start ECOing just for the heck of it.  >  >    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:00:26 +0100 " From: "Hans Vlems" <hvlems@iae.nl> Subject: Re: CDROM detection5 Message-ID: <aqu7gu$di2f1$1@ID-143435.news.dfncis.de>   I "Gordon Pimblott" <gordon.pimblott@uk.thalesgroup.com> schreef in bericht  news:aqtvkf$ao1$1@rdel.co.uk... H > Is there a way that I can detect which devices on my systems are CDROM > drives programmatically ?  >  > Thanks > K You could use f$device to scan for all devices on the system that belong to  a specific class (i.e. "DISK")I and next use f$getdvi to check on one or more attributes (like readonly).    Hans   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 12:54:42 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen)  Subject: Re: CDROM detection3 Message-ID: <TXuJHljao1rt@eisner.encompasserve.org>   c In article <3DD29BA1.400FDDA6@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:  > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > G >> If the device has a mounted volume, DVI$_SWL will be set.  Of course B >> that will also be set when a magnetic disk is mounted /NOWRITE.  5 > I don't recall if DQDRIVER has any code to indicate 1 > "CD-ROM" purely and unambiguously; I think not.    > I don't know about DKDRIVER.  E And we also don't know about D<whatever> driver to serve CDROM drives ' on USB, or perhaps eventually Firewire.   > But a "CDROM" bit would not be adequate, as some would want to< distinguish between "CDROM" and "DVD" and "DVD+" and "DVD-".   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 11:22:45 -0800( From: rrb35146@yahoo.com (Robbie Benton) Subject: Re: CSWS hangs = Message-ID: <dba64bc2.0211131122.1c78ff39@posting.google.com>   d "Rick Barry" <barry@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<8IsA9.9$U35.392347@news.cpqcorp.net>... > [snip]  J > We're currently investigating a problem where Apache servers hang in LEFN > state. If your servers are in LEF state, issue the command: $ tcipip sho devL > (or the equivalent command for the TCP/IP software you're running). Do you= > see a number of socket devices connected to port 80 or 443?  >  > Rick Barry" > Compaq Secure Web Server Project > OpenVMS System Software Group  > Hewlett-Packard Company  > Nashua, NH   Rick  E I am also experiencing this problem.  I have an application that runs B on the PC that uses HTTP to download a file from my OpenVMS ServerD every five minutes.  If I leave that program running overnight, thenE my Apache Server is usually not responding the next morning. [This is C in a development environment - this five minute request is the only = request hitting the server.]  I will be glad to also send you E information regarding a TCPIP SHOW DEVICE command execution when this  event happens next.    Robbie   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 15:21:22 -0800( From: rrb35146@yahoo.com (Robbie Benton) Subject: Re: CSWS hangs = Message-ID: <dba64bc2.0211131521.6a70116e@posting.google.com>s  d "Rick Barry" <barry@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message news:<8IsA9.9$U35.392347@news.cpqcorp.net>...   > [snip] > J > We're currently investigating a problem where Apache servers hang in LEFN > state. If your servers are in LEF state, issue the command: $ tcipip sho devL > (or the equivalent command for the TCP/IP software you're running). Do you= > see a number of socket devices connected to port 80 or 443?. >   D As stated in an earlier post, I too am seeing the problem.  I have aC machine in that state right now.  After performing a tcipip sho deveA command, there is no sockets connected to 443 and only one socket  connected to port 80.n  = Of interest, when Apache was started around 9:30, five of thesC APACHE$00xxx tasks were started.  As stated earlier, a PC request a'F file download every five minutes from this server via HTTP.  AccordingF to the ACCESS_LOG file, the last request was at 12:51.  Interestingly,F APACHE$006 and APACHE$007 were stated at about the same time, accoring0 to the creation time of the .COM and .LOG files.  C So, it appears that the hang up happened at about the same time newsF tasks were started.  Since there is so little activity on this server,? I am somewhat perplexed at why it would spawn additional tasks.C  C I then proceeded to use STOP/ID to terminate first APACHE$00007 andeE then APACHE$00006.  When APACHE$00007  was stopped, nothing seemed to D change.  However, when APACHE$00006 was stopped, the system appearedF to start APACHE$00006, APACHE$00007, and APACHE$00008 and successfully fulfill the HTTP requests.  
 I'm confused!i   Robbie   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 17:19:43 -0800( From: bob@instantwhip.com (Bob Ceculski) Subject: Re: CSWS hangs = Message-ID: <d7791aa1.0211131719.2ea14ad9@posting.google.com>b  d winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote in message news:<00A16E47.5D4C4690@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>...N > In article <aqt60u$o6k$1@web1.cup.hp.com>, "labadie" <g.g@127.0.0.1> writes: > >o7 > >"JOUKJ" <joukj@hrem.stm.tudelft.nl> wrote in messagem' > >news:aqt3al$cs4$1@news.tudelft.nl...m > >> Hi all, > >>L > >> I'm running CSWS1.3 on OpenVMS7.3-1. Once in the 1 or 2 days the server, > >> hangs and I have to restart it maually.	 > > Hello  > >H > O > I love the recommendation, and it's possible that Jouk would be persuaded to  Q > go to WASD by the description of the features in the book, but in fact the bookeL > will not answer his question, which is "Why does 1.3 hang every so often?" > Q > (The book only goes up to 1.2, where I didn't see that problem.  With 1.3, I am M > seeing that problem, and I don't have an answer, although I notice that it :H > happens much less often if I crank up the total number of servers.  InM > addition, those servers all seem to be sitting happily in LEF at times whenhP > port 80 is totally unresponsive.  The main process is still alive and responds+ > to a @SYS$STARTUP:APACHE$CONFIG RESTART.)t > O > According to the notes in HTTPD.CONF the server will act like this if it ever K > gets more simultaneous requests than the maximum number of processes it'sgL > allowed to have; this seems consistent with finding more processes runningQ > than you expected to find when you find it hung.  I'm not convinced that that'ssM > all there is to it; you'd expect the other processes to come back when theyy > were done. > 	 > -- Alan   5 I have the answer ... Purveyor ... it never hangs ...1   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:01:07 GMTo From: fusion@techfusion.coms Subject: DATA RECOVERY+ Message-ID: <TjxA9.10337$NH2.930@sccrnsc01>a  O  Techfusion data recovery services - leading service provider of data recovery;   es  We offer Data Recovery services 24h/7days. Our DATA RECOVERY SPECIALISTS have 93.7% successful data recovery rate,   we are second to none.   o|  Even today's most advanced hard disk drives are not engineered to be fail-safe. Predicting data loss is nearly impossible, t  minimal power fluctuations may cause physical damage to your drives. Data recovery can get your valuable data back.   Q  Our Storage experts can recover your data from almost any media you can imagine,w:  CD/DVD, JAZ, TAPE, Hard Drive, Floppy, Zip, Flash Memory.   f  Our team of high quality engineering professionals employ the most current data recovery techniques, A  ensuring your data's integrity is preserved even after a crash.    e:  "Where Data is never lost." That's the Techfusion motto.   dr  After receiving your drive, our data recovery team will evaluate the drive's damage and contact you with a quote J  within twelve to twenty four hours. We're so confident in our abilities, P  we'll refund your entire bill (less setup fee/deposit) if no data is recovered.   q  We are authorized with 23 of the largest computer organizations in the world for warranty data recovery service am  and hardware repair and currently hold contracts with several large financial and educational institutions. wy  Whether you're an organization looking for a service contract, or an individual with a broken PC needs a data recovery, y% Techfusion has the solution for you.    Hc  Our data recovery rate is very competitive. We also offer data recovery service affillate program.   .n  Because our geographic advantage, our data recovery services are accessible to many individuals, businesses,   and organizations in and around the metropolitan area. Our 14 years of extensive experience provide you fastest data recovery services.    sB  For more information, please call our data recovery specialist at<  1-617-491-1001, 1-877-310-DATA, or visit www.techfusion.com   F  <jl50_us@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:Q0Zz9.23$%M2.677@testbox...=  > I have four month of data saved on my desktop computer andAH  > it collapes on the floor today. When I turn it on, I could not accessG  > my data anymore, can anyone refer me a reputable data recovery shop,iD  > I will fail all my courses if I could not data recovery my files,  > I am in Massachusetts   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Nov 2002 23:51:20 GMT# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)c( Subject: Re: Detecting non-Files-11 disk* Message-ID: <aquoho$in3$1@web1.cup.hp.com>  a In article <9e311bd1.0211070740.5012ca69@posting.google.com>, jsewell@iu.net (Joe Sewell) writes:tC :I've been tasked to create a utility (written in DECwindows/Motif,m# :though that shouldn't matter here)   A   DECwindows is less of an implementation language than a GUI andl   associated libraries.I  ,? :                                  that can copy hard drives.  h  A   What is the particular problem you seek to solve?  Copying frome@   one disk to an identical disk, making a BACKUP of a disk, etc?  E :                                                              I have.G :the logic in place -- and working, even :) -- to do VMS copies out the E :wazoo.  I also have the logic in place to do disks created on a UN*Xf& :system, thanks to help provided here.  >   You know about BACKUP/PHYSICAL for block-oriented copies and>   probably also about the BACKUP callable interface.  I expect=   there are also ports of dd around.  tar and zip and similara"   tools also have ports available.  A :My current roadblock is in detecting when a disk isn't Files-11.e  C   MOUNT contains code that tries to auto-detect Files-11 ODS-2 and uB   ODS-5 volumes, ISO-9660, and probably a couple of other formats.  E :I thought I could try mounting the disk (using SYS$MOUNT), and if ituA :failed, mount it /FOREIGN and force a physical backup.  For some C :reason, though, the mount hangs within SYS$MOUNT itself; I presume F :it's hunting down a valid Files-11 homeblock, although there's no I/O :on the drive.  A   I would not expect a hang to arise, that would initially appearMB   to be either a coding bug in the application, or an OpenVMS bug.  A :Short of reading the first physical block on the drive (which, IeG :presume, would be done by opening a channel directly to the device andoG :doing a SYS$QIO[W]), is there a better way of detecting a non-Files-11  :disk?  F   The first block (LBN 0) won't tell you if the disk is Files-11, thatF   block is the operating system boot block for VAX, Alpha, and ItaniumH   consoles.  Some disks have boot blocks, some don't.  I'm in the midst E   of working on LBN 0 as part of the OpenVMS port to Itanium, as welloI   -- that block will now contain an MBR record.  LBN 1 (the second block)dG   currently contains an ODS-format home block on ODS-2 and ODS-5 disks,fH   but that might well change if we add GPT support for OpenVMS Itanium.   N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.coma   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Nov 2002 00:08:00 GMT# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)e Subject: Re: Email FilterA* Message-ID: <aquph0$in3$2@web1.cup.hp.com>  g In article <9iyy9.24$dJ4.77053@news.uswest.net>, "rationalfan" <ptellep@vectortechnicalinc.com> writes:iI :I am looking for some ideals for SPAM filtering on an OpenVMS machine...i :...with SMTP mail service.  c  C   TCP/IP Services has (RBL) black-hole list anti-spam capabilities.w   :What programs are available,n  A   I am not aware of any, though there may well be some filters...i  4 :or how hard would this be to write myself?  Thanks.  >   Search for details on Bayesian filtering and Judea Pearl, as@   one suggestion.  There was a Risks Digest article a while back:   that should both be relevent here, and easily available.  1   For one take on best-practices, take a look at:   *     ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2505.txt   @   The spammers have seen this stuff and are working to avoid it.  G   As an alternative to DELIVER, there is a PIPE_MAILSHR utility and the>F   Majordomo server for OpenVMS.  To acquire a kit, send a mail messageH   to the SMTP address majordomo@lassie.ucx.lkg.dec.com, no subject line,@   and include the following commands in the body of the message:  ;     get vms-majordomo-users PIPE_MAILSHR_ECO1_ZIP.UUENCODEDl;     get vms-majordomo-users VMS_MAJORDOMO_FT6_ZIP.UUENCODED   H   PIPE_MAILSHR passes messages into the DCL PIPE command for processing.  H   This stuff should be on the next Freeware distribution, for those that   wish to wait for it...  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.coms   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:56:04 -0500n! From: Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu>v$ Subject: Re: Formatting hard disk(s)' Message-ID: <3DD2A044.58E04192@vcu.edu>o  8 no, i'm reading your mind in the future, John....... ;-D  	 hee hee..e     JimO   John Laird wrote:A > H > On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:30:29 -0500, Jim Agnew <jpagnew@vcu.edu> wrote: > H > >Are you running into the problem of some bits not being set? like the > >correct on read, etc? > N > I think you're reading something into my post that's not all that obvious toL > the the poster !  I'm not having any problems at the moment, other than an. > inability to check facts before replying :-) >  >         John   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Nov 2002 20:08:41 GMT( From: bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day5 Message-ID: <aqubg9$dfjh3$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>t  . In article <3DD27D06.EBFE28AA@mindspring.com>,5 	Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:r >  > 1 > The ideas I cited were all deemed revolutionary 4 > or radical or were espoused by unabashed liberals. >  >   o Funding of DARPA Net >   = First time I ever heard anyone mention DOD and Liberal in the  same sentence.  = Oh wait, I guess it could come under revolutionary or radical = and not have anything to do with Liberals unlees you buy intor1 the idea that Al Gore invented the INTERNET.  :-)o   bill   -- -J Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolvesD bill@cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton   |A Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   r   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 13:23:55 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)Y  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day3 Message-ID: <4y7r1rMQVV9y@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  ` In article <aqubg9$dfjh3$1@ID-135708.news.dfncis.de>, bill@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:0 > In article <3DD27D06.EBFE28AA@mindspring.com>,7 > 	Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:f >> a >> e2 >> The ideas I cited were all deemed revolutionary5 >> or radical or were espoused by unabashed liberals.( >> E >>   o Funding of DARPA Net  >>   > ? > First time I ever heard anyone mention DOD and Liberal in the- > same sentence. > ? > Oh wait, I guess it could come under revolutionary or radicalc? > and not have anything to do with Liberals unlees you buy into63 > the idea that Al Gore invented the INTERNET.  :-)m >   F Gore never claimed to have "invented" the Internet. What he said was:   I "During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in  creating the Internet."f  * 	He never invented it, he just created it.   				Rob,   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:21:44 -0500n2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day. Message-ID: <3DD2B458.85046760@mindspring.com>   Bill Gunshannon wrote:  0 > In article <3DD27D06.EBFE28AA@mindspring.com>,> >         Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes: > >t > >o3 > > The ideas I cited were all deemed revolutionaryi6 > > or radical or were espoused by unabashed liberals. > >  > >   o Funding of DARPA Net > >t >e? > First time I ever heard anyone mention DOD and Liberal in the) > same sentence. >i? > Oh wait, I guess it could come under revolutionary or radicalo? > and not have anything to do with Liberals unlees you buy intog3 > the idea that Al Gore invented the INTERNET.  :-)n  5 And, of course, that's another Conservative "Big Lie"h as I'm sure you know.h  - Al Gore never made such a claim. Al Gore did,m2 on the other hand, claim to have been instrumental* in securing funding for DARPAnet and NREN,2 the two pre-cursors to the Internet as we know it.  , Such luminaries as Vinton Cerf, who arguably. *DID* invent the Internet, have backed-up Al's claim.  6 But that lie is so much more fun, isn't it? That's why" people like you keep repeating it.   Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 13:35:57 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)   Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day3 Message-ID: <T6U$bgfXbT7e@eisner.encompasserve.org>a  c In article <3DD2B458.85046760@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:o  . > Such luminaries as Vinton Cerf, who arguably0 > *DID* invent the Internet, have backed-up Al's > claim. 	 - 	You mean Vinton tried to add credence to it?.  D "Let's put his defense of [Gore] in context. Cerf is an executive atE a large telecommunications company, and I suspect he acts more like amM Washingtonian than a technologist nowadays. For instance, Cerf was a guest of O honor at the White House's New Year's Eve gala, appeared with the president andoK first lady at an October 1999 White House 'Millennium Evening' lecture, and I joined the president and vice president at a July 1997 event to introducee" administration policy proposals."    > 8 > But that lie is so much more fun, isn't it? That's why$ > people like you keep repeating it. >   9 	It is a distortion.  Al Gore never claimed to invent the 6 	Internet.  He was just "instrumental in creating" it:  F Gore never claimed to have "invented" the Internet. What he said was:   I "During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in: creating the Internet."z  E 	He is the creator of the Internet, not the inventor of the Internet.s  @ 	I suppose one could argue there is a vast semantical differnce.( 	Good luck fighting that pitched battle.   				Robo   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:05:52 -0500 ( From: David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day, Message-ID: <3DD26A50.5050108@tsoft-inc.com>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:n   > David Froble wrote:n >  >  >>Atlant Schmidt wrote:  >> >> >>>Jim Agnew wrote:  >>>a >>>u >>>p& >>>>I'll bite, whut's fondavision????? >>>> >>>>3 >>>Terry's one of those people who think the Entiref. >>>American Media Conglomerate is solely aimed >>>at spreading Lefty lies.e >>>mR >>And Atlant appears to be a liberal that tries to make liberal ideas appear to be
 >>mainstream.i    J I'm sorry, I misstated that.  It should read, "And Atlant appears to be a M liberal that tries to make mainstream ideas appear to be supported solely by T% liberals, and opposed by all others."f    , > Oh no! Not someone calling me a "liberal"! > Whatever shall I do? > & > Yes, YOU BET YOUR ASS I'M A LIBERAL. > / > I'm cut from the same cloth as the people whov > brought you: >  >    o The 40 hour work-week >   o Women's right to votet >   o Blacks' right to votem$ >   o Contraception available to all >   o Freedom of speech2 >   o Freedom of religionm; >   o The right of the accused to have legal representationg< >   o The right of the accused to know the charges proferred >      against them.. >   o A free press (now, unfortunately, dying) >   o Social Security  >   o Medicare and Medicaidr >   o An elected Senatem >   o The GI Bill> >   o Funding of DARPA Net > 0 > I'm sorry *YOU* apparently don't support those1 > "liberal" ideas, but you can bet your ass I'm a ( > liberal, and a PROGRESSIVE, and damned > PROUD OF IT!    N Typical of a liberal.  How do you know what I support?  You forgot the wheel, O sliced bread,  and everything else that people appriciate?  To claim that your aO list above is attributed solely to liberals is pure bullshit.  However, if you cP liberals say the lie often enough, some people might start believing you.  But, 7 gee, you forgot to mention some of your favorite ideas:i  G (Short list, the internet doesn't have the bandwidth for the full list)g   - America is ALWAYS wrongIO - working hard and becoming successful, the American dream, makes you a bad guye3 - a legal system that stiffles any type of progress)L - 'affirmative action', implemented as give the gold to those who don't workN     for something, and the shaft to the hardest working, most deserving person  E - dumbing down the education system in an attempt to disguise reality       . > And in a few years, I'll check back with you2 > and see if you still feel like wielding the word > "Liberal" like an epithet.    Q Go right ahead.  I'll still maintain that the far left liberals are every bit as vN bad as the far right conservatives.  Both groups are irrational.  The problem M with liberals is that they are ALL far, far left.  They don't seem to give a ' damn about any harm they cause.c   Dave   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:03:44 -0500i* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day2 Message-ID: <Y42dnTtQ0raWP0-gXTWc3g@metrocast.net>  5 "David Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in messagen& news:3DD26A50.5050108@tsoft-inc.com... > Atlant Schmidt wrote:    ...   K > I'm sorry, I misstated that.  It should read, "And Atlant appears to be a,K > liberal that tries to make mainstream ideas appear to be supported solelyi by' > liberals, and opposed by all others."s  J An improvement, but still incorrect:  they're not opposed by *all* others,= just considerably less valued by *many* others.  For example:    >R >a. > > Oh no! Not someone calling me a "liberal"! > > Whatever shall I do? > >g( > > Yes, YOU BET YOUR ASS I'M A LIBERAL. > > 1 > > I'm cut from the same cloth as the people whot > > brought you: > >i > >    o The 40 hour work-week  J You'll find considerably less concern for worker protection in general (ofE which the 40-hour week is just one example) in the conservative camp.    > >   o Women's right to voteo  C Probably not too much difference there (especially with soccer momsu  increasingly voting Republican).   > >   o Blacks' right to vote   K See Y2K election for most recent examples - but minority voting rights have-< never been anywhere near the top of the conservative agenda.  & > >   o Contraception available to all  L Duh - need I really comment on this one?  While Christian conservatives lostA the fight in the U.S., they continue it in our efforts elsewhere.a   > >   o Freedom of speechf  @ See John Ashcroft and his enthusiastic supporters in the current( administration (all the way to the top).   > >   o Freedom of religioni  J As long as it doesn't include atheism, and as long as it's not interpretedK to prevent majority religious observations in, e.g., schools and governmenta facilities.n  = > >   o The right of the accused to have legal representation-   See John Ashcroft et al.  > > >   o The right of the accused to know the charges proferred > >      against them.   Do I have to say it again?  0 > >   o A free press (now, unfortunately, dying)  L Legitimate criticism of both *parties* here (remembering the Vietnam era andK the Johnson administration), but I still have more faith in the liberals toO protect it.:   > >   o Social SecurityD   Gee - let's privatize it, huh?   > >   o Medicare and Medicaid   I Do you really question who more supports government involvement in health ( care to ensure those who need it get it?   > >   o An elected Senate   . That one is most likely no longer a hot issue.   > >   o The GI Bill)  H Can't comment here.  The hawks are always gung-ho for increased militaryL spending, but I'm not sure they're quite as strong for non-military spending on former GIs.   > >   o Funding of DARPA Net  K Another cloudy one.  It was military-related, but non-military.  And not so4H localized that pork-barrel considerations overrode party lines.  Have to plead ignorance again.    I Do a lot of people who don't consider themselves liberals support many oflK the above?  Of course they do.  But they don't *vote* as if they consideredrG them of primary importance, they just feel a bit of discomfort when therF fascists start to dismantle them (see the oft-quoted statement by Rev. Martin Niemoller).   > > 2 > > I'm sorry *YOU* apparently don't support those3 > > "liberal" ideas, but you can bet your ass I'm a-* > > liberal, and a PROGRESSIVE, and damned > > PROUD OF IT! >e >O > Typical of a liberal.s  J And a typical response from an asshole:  denigrate the speaker rather than$ engage him/her in actual discussion.  8   How do you know what I support?  You forgot the wheel,K > sliced bread,  and everything else that people appriciate?  To claim thata yourL > list above is attributed solely to liberals is pure bullshit.  However, if youaK > liberals say the lie often enough, some people might start believing you.- But,9 > gee, you forgot to mention some of your favorite ideas:p >eI > (Short list, the internet doesn't have the bandwidth for the full list)S  L That's all right:  there's no real need for any more garbage than you spewed below.   >o > - America is ALWAYS wrongm  J Idiot.  You don't seem able to differentiate between the fact that AmericaK (by virtue of its pervasive activities) is *often* wrong (and appropriatelyw, criticized for it) and blanket condemnation.  I > - working hard and becoming successful, the American dream, makes you am bad guys  L Idiot.  Wherever you pulled that out from, it wasn't from any participant inH the current discussion (or from any general liberal principle that *I'm*
 aware of).  5 > - a legal system that stiffles any type of progresse  K Idiot.  You're confusing liberals with lawyers (who AFAICT aren't typicallysE all that liberal):  the latter are the ones who favor a clogged legallL system, while the former only demand that it perform its Constitutional duty< as a check on abuses in both the public and private sectors.  I > - 'affirmative action', implemented as give the gold to those who don'tr workI >     for something, and the shaft to the hardest working, most deservingi person  ? Idiot.  You clearly don't even know the definition of the term.,   >oG > - dumbing down the education system in an attempt to disguise realityc  K Idiot.  It's the Republican party that's hell-bent on returning to a system  that educates only the elite..  K If you'd like to return to something resembling an actual discussion, start  by re-engaging your brain.   >x >l >g0 > > And in a few years, I'll check back with you4 > > and see if you still feel like wielding the word > > "Liberal" like an epithet. >@ >lK > Go right ahead.  I'll still maintain that the far left liberals are everyn bit asG > bad as the far right conservatives.  Both groups are irrational.  The@ problemmL > with liberals is that they are ALL far, far left.  They don't seem to give a ! > damn about any harm they cause.a  = And a statement like that qualifies you as a *fucking* idiot.n   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:52:54 -0500t2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day. Message-ID: <3DD2BBA6.A712924F@mindspring.com>   Rob:  1   I decided after I pushed the "send" button thatw/   I couldn't unambiguously parse the "polarity"M,   of Bill Gunshannon's message, so my attack.   on Bill may have been inappropriate. Were it(   technologically possible, I would have&   called-back my message and re-worded+   it to remove or vastly re-word the attacke   at the bottom.  1   So let me state, unambiguously, what I believe:o  1   I believe that the line "Al Gore claims to haved4   invented the Internet" is a deliberate lie made up   by the American Right Wing.   *     (David Brock, in his book, "Blinded by)     the Right; the Conscience of a Formeri(     Conservative", clearly describes how'     he and others in the American RightX$     simply made things up to provoke#     reactions which they could then-
     utilize.)-  $   I believe Al Gore never would have   made such a claim.  *   I believe that Al Gore did claim, as you+   also state, to have been "instrumental in-   creating" the Internet.i  -   I believe Al Gore's statement is the truth,p1   both in letter and in spirit, based on the fact 0   that, as a Congressman and later as a Senator,-   he argued vociferously for funding DARPAnet<   and NREN.@  ,   And if I did mis-interpret Bill G's point,!   I believe I owe him an apology:,  *   "Bill, if I misinterpreted your point, I
   apologize."r     Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 15:01:25 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)   Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day3 Message-ID: <3o2xSzHL1U3Z@eisner.encompasserve.org>   _ In article <00A16EA2.2E1251D9@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:yc > In article <T6U$bgfXbT7e@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes: e >>In article <3DD2B458.85046760@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:  >>0 >>> Such luminaries as Vinton Cerf, who arguably2 >>> *DID* invent the Internet, have backed-up Al's
 >>> claim. >>	o/ >>	You mean Vinton tried to add credence to it?  >>F >>"Let's put his defense of [Gore] in context. Cerf is an executive atG >>a large telecommunications company, and I suspect he acts more like a O >>Washingtonian than a technologist nowadays. For instance, Cerf was a guest of Q >>honor at the White House's New Year's Eve gala, appeared with the president and0M >>first lady at an October 1999 White House 'Millennium Evening' lecture, andcK >>joined the president and vice president at a July 1997 event to introduce $ >>administration policy proposals."  >> >>> : >>> But that lie is so much more fun, isn't it? That's why& >>> people like you keep repeating it. >>>  >>; >>	It is a distortion.  Al Gore never claimed to invent the 8 >>	Internet.  He was just "instrumental in creating" it: >>H >>Gore never claimed to have "invented" the Internet. What he said was:  >>K >>"During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in  >>creating the Internet."r >>G >>	He is the creator of the Internet, not the inventor of the Internet.  >>B >>	I suppose one could argue there is a vast semantical differnce.* >>	Good luck fighting that pitched battle. > J > I'm sure your mind is irrevocably made up, but I'll go through this onceD > anyway.  It's obvious from context that Gore was talking about theQ > _legislative_ initiative to create the Internet, that is, that he sponsored thedG > bill to permit connection of multiple networks and privatized networkhO > infrastructure (thus, creating the Internet) and to allow commercial traffic, P > thus making possible the infrastructure on which e-commerce is built. He's notQ > claiming that he invented ARP-cacheing or IP-masquerading or packet-forwarding.w > O > (And the claim that it's obvious he was making is a true claim, and he really Q > didn't deserve to be ridiculed for it, and certainly not to have it used as theaI > basis for character assassination about his "problems with the truth.")o >   @ 	Well that's nice.  But of course it wasn't his claim.  Besides,@ 	he is/was quite limited in his scope (i.e. he left out the restA 	of the world).  Also, I had been using the Internet years beforei 	he created.   				Robt   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:36:48 GMTo$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU  Subject: Re: Happy Veteran's Day8 Message-ID: <00A16EA2.2E1251D9@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  a In article <T6U$bgfXbT7e@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:cd >In article <3DD2B458.85046760@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes: > / >> Such luminaries as Vinton Cerf, who arguably01 >> *DID* invent the Internet, have backed-up Al'sy	 >> claim.  >	. >	You mean Vinton tried to add credence to it? >rE >"Let's put his defense of [Gore] in context. Cerf is an executive atgF >a large telecommunications company, and I suspect he acts more like aN >Washingtonian than a technologist nowadays. For instance, Cerf was a guest ofP >honor at the White House's New Year's Eve gala, appeared with the president andL >first lady at an October 1999 White House 'Millennium Evening' lecture, andJ >joined the president and vice president at a July 1997 event to introduce# >administration policy proposals." e >o >> e9 >> But that lie is so much more fun, isn't it? That's why % >> people like you keep repeating it., >> o >w: >	It is a distortion.  Al Gore never claimed to invent the7 >	Internet.  He was just "instrumental in creating" it:  >NG >Gore never claimed to have "invented" the Internet. What he said was: : >:J >"During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in >creating the Internet." >zF >	He is the creator of the Internet, not the inventor of the Internet. > A >	I suppose one could argue there is a vast semantical differnce.s) >	Good luck fighting that pitched battle.s  H I'm sure your mind is irrevocably made up, but I'll go through this onceB anyway.  It's obvious from context that Gore was talking about theO _legislative_ initiative to create the Internet, that is, that he sponsored theSE bill to permit connection of multiple networks and privatized networkaM infrastructure (thus, creating the Internet) and to allow commercial traffic, N thus making possible the infrastructure on which e-commerce is built. He's notO claiming that he invented ARP-cacheing or IP-masquerading or packet-forwarding.t  M (And the claim that it's obvious he was making is a true claim, and he reallynO didn't deserve to be ridiculed for it, and certainly not to have it used as thenG basis for character assassination about his "problems with the truth.")    -- AlanD   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:55:19 +0000-' From: Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy2 Subject: Re: HP Advocacy Site1. Message-ID: <3DD267D7.8060803@nospamn.sun.com>   Bob Koehler wrote:R > In article <aqt5mv016d@drn.newsguy.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes: > L >>As multiple people keep pointing out to you, most vendors of extended file= >>system interfaces provide a native ODBC and JDBC connector.@ >  > I >    Yeah, fine.  But that doesn't mean it makes sense for HP to do it inf? >    this case.  There's aleady a vendor for the minute market.  >    To quote the origional post   ; "I would just about need a lobotomy to use java on VMS if I'. don't use a database for the underlying data."  3 Can we assume that since you happy that a 3rd party 3 can provide JDBC support for RMS and since you havei5 had you missconceptions about the difficulty of usingr0 JDBC with RMS that you would the first person to refute this posting.     Regardsa Andrew Harrisond   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:03:18 GMTa$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: HP Advocacy Siteh8 Message-ID: <00A16E95.1DEDE640@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  Q In article <aqtga1014kb@drn.newsguy.com>, Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes:m9 >In article <00A16E4A.108416DC@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>, ' >winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU says...i >>N >>>However, I still don't think VMS Engineering should be spending any time onN >>making a JDBC interface to RMS files.  C-ISAM has to do it because they make >tL >I don't think they should either. I do think VMS management should stronglyL >consider bundling RMS ODBC and JDBC Attunity connectors in exactly the sameQ >fashion they do for Oracle! Limit the concurrent license count to 2 or somethingmO >to keep commercial sales alive but at least give the most basic functionality.y  K Okay, I'm completely with you there.  However, when I first messed with theeH on-platform package and found only the worthless-to-me Oracle support, IM suggested to Rich Marcello that this was strategically bad - you want to makedM it easier for people to stick with RMS and/or Rdb, not give them a leg up in tK promoting Oracle, since once they move to Oracle they can more easily jump yJ ship from VMS - and he seemed to agree, but - I was told by the person he K directed to take care of this - Attunity wasn't interested in renegotiatinge their deal.e  H (Attunity themselves seemed willing to be flexible on price in selling aJ license for the full-function package, but I had no money at all available at that time.)   -- Alana   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:46:13 +0100t1 From: John McLean <mcleanj@swissonline.delete.ch>s Subject: Re: HP Advocacy Sites5 Message-ID: <3DD2C825.B8A806DE@swissonline.delete.ch>e  % winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote:  >  ...nN > And is HP supposed to write one and bundle it for free with VMS, the way RMSL > comes?  The C-ISAM vendors have to do it because C-ISAM is their bread andN > butter, and Unix customers will just move to an rdbms if they can't get whatN > they want out of Isam files, in which case the C-ISAM people get less money. > @ > I think John McLean is right that the JAVA file i/o model is aM > least-common-denominator Unix-oriented thing, and that Andrew is right that0P > it's not Sun's job to produce Java extensions for RMS.  But I don't think thatQ > means that HP is letting down the customer base by not spending their resources"M > on providing a JDBC interface to RMS files, when anybody who really, really.) > needs it can but it from a third-party.  > O > (And I think the whole JDBC deal is a diversion from John's original problem,tM > which was that RMS access from Java was clumsy, slow, and awkward.  If Java H > programs have to go through a JDBC layer and a SQL interpreter to do aM > key-based lookup of an RMS file, that'll be clumsy, slow, and awkward too.)s  F  F Firstly, this has turned into a much better discussion of the state ofD java on VMS than my attempts to open the topic a week or two ago.  IG have read most of the comments but kept out of the argument until now. oB Of course I have been mis-quoted, mis-interpreted and taken out of( context, but that is par for the course.  D I have no doubt that Java is "lowest common denominator" but even inB that state it suits a lot of people because their expectations andA capabilites are being met.  What is not so easily met - either in H capability or speed/efficiency - are the capabilities of platforms other than Unix and Windows.  ? It is clear that at the browser end Java needs to be common andhG consistent.  What is not so clear is why this should be the case on the  server end.   G Sure we have the purists who claim that Java has to be standard even onUC the server but the practicalities are that people switch web serverf: platforms relatively rarely and such dogmatism is probablyF unreasonable.  For that reason I would like to see Java with low levelH hooks so that the various vendors could provide the interfacing to theirH various operating systems at this point rather than a singular interface< which provides a stack-based mechanism to access C programs.  H If IBM could integrate Java with their various scripts, and HP integrateF it properly with VMS (including full and consisent RMS access) then we$ would have something truly powerful.  E To satisfy the purists we could have the "pseudo-compiler" report anycD non-standard extensions that are used.  If the aim is create totallyF standard code, then any non-standard code must be replaced.  If on theD other hand the aim is to satisy the needs on just one platform, then  these warnings could be ignored.  G In the meantime we seem to have third-party packages which will do somenD of what we want - at a price - and yet end up in a similar situationG viz, with code that is not transportable, so what have we really gainedh ?I  F Should HP provide the interfacing to RMS (and perhaps other functions)< ?   In the current situation I would say "maybe" rather thanH "definitely".  On the other hand if Java could provide low level hooks -H perhaps that enable me to run DCL with Java commands spread through it -B then the answer would definitely be "yes" because of the degree of! integration with DCL and the CLI.   B As for my original tasks I can see that it will not be possible toH create Java programs to perform that processing that I need unless I (orF my employer) is prepared to invest significant time and money.  I willC probably opt for a CGI solution (probably using WASD on the server)sE because this will be quicker to develop, and probably more efficient.e  E It really seems that some tasks are fine for Java on VMS and some are'G not.  It also seems that consideration of the use of Java should reallyOE be done during the design of projects because it does not readily fitd all situations.k     John McLeann   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Nov 2002 00:26:06 GMT# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)b! Subject: Re: HP keyboard problemsp* Message-ID: <aquqiu$in3$3@web1.cup.hp.com>  = :In article <01C285B5.BA988E10@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smithr :<ssmith@icius.com> wrote: :lA :>Here's an interesting one. This new LK463 isn't wireless is it?e :>H :>http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article.jhtml?articleID=431326 :>G :>Apparently a couple of guys in Norway have HP wireless keyboards that H :>can type on each others' machines 150 metres (roughly yards) apart. SoG :>HP replaced them, and it's still happening. Not something you want toa :>type passwords on...  H   How quickly folks forget the "fun" that an earlier generation of folksG   had with the wireless IR connection on the IBM PC Jr keyboard.  TheseaG   PC Jr systems were targeting schools, and the kids quickly learned to )   "aim" their keyboards at other systems.i  H   Risks are risks, of course -- "drive-by" viral infections of MicrosoftH   Windows systems on 802.11b wireless LANs (WLANs) are already occuring.G   I have not looked at Bluetooth in detail, but I'd be equally paranoide=   over its admittedly smaller-than-a-WLAN coverage footprint.r  N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.coma   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:10:48 -0500o0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>/ Subject: Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbyes/ Message-ID: <3DD2BFCD.E4DB3013@vl.videotron.ca>h   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:K > You know what?  Your opinion, and mine, have absolutely no weight.  He issL > apparently well respected and sought out by the people who's opinions *do*	 > matter.g > @ > Besides, what isyour beef?  You wanted rid of him - he's gone.  N My beef is that the media, as you say, seems to portray him as well respected.L Was Palmer also well respected ? The media only look at press releases, they: don't know what Curly has done during his stint at Compaq.  N Last night, on Charlie Rose (a PBS program), Lou Gertsner was interviewed. (heM has a new book about his experience at IBM).  He confirmed what I had noticed L at IBM: he worked very hard to change the culture of the company, and he hadJ very difficult time during the first year. The interview gave me even moreM respect for the guy. And this comes from a JF who used to despise IBM for its3( brainwahsing tactics with its customers.  5 Capellas isn't anywhere near the calibre of Gerstner.   J And Gerstner also emphasised that he had to find people he could trust forN technical advise on hard decisions etc. When you look at guys like Winkler forL Capellas, or Stallard for Carly, that doesn't give anyone much confidence in. the type of advice the higher ups are getting.  N And Gerstner even admitted making technological direction mistakes, notably inM networking. Now, if Carly came out and admitted that killinng Alpha last yearpN had been a mistake, she would earn much more respect in my opinion, even if it* didn't result in Alpha being rescucitated.  I (and guess what, it would also put pressure on Intel to improve that IA64i thing nobody wants)   N > qualifications and abilities of CEOs).  The simple fact is that the BoD of aI > company - and the weight of wall-street analyst opinion is what counts.A  L Yep. But those types of decisions/pressure/advise is what created folks likeK Palmer, Capellas who destroyed companies.  And pressure from Wall Street isiH what forced/motivated the ceos of companies like enron, worldcome etc to= falsify financials in order to meet Wall Street expectations.e  E > Hardly.  I can't imagine them havinga problem filling the position.i  I Unless their goal is to spin off MCI, sell it to Level 3 (Warren Buffet'sp< company), and then send the rest of Worldcom into bankrupcy.    B > Duh.  An offer, and timing that he couldn't refuse, as they say.  M Correct. For Curly, he made no mistake in accepting any CEO job he could get.sR The mistake is done by the media who protrayed him as a winner instead of a loser.   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:47:37 GMTv5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> / Subject: Re: It's official. Curly waves goodbyeA3 Message-ID: <dEAA9.46$RG5.2004091@news.cpqcorp.net>   @ JF Mezei wrote in message <3DD2BFCD.E4DB3013@vl.videotron.ca>... >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:kL >> You know what?  Your opinion, and mine, have absolutely no weight.  He isH >> apparently well respected and sought out by the people who's opinions *do*
 >> matter. >>A >> Besides, what isyour beef?  You wanted rid of him - he's gone.n > D >My beef is that the media, as you say, seems to portray him as well
 respected.H >Was Palmer also well respected ? The media only look at press releases, they; >don't know what Curly has done during his stint at Compaq.  >c  I Capellas *is* widely respected on the street, as well as by a significant I amount of the financial media people.  What the "media" knows varies fromcK writer to writer, and media outlet to media outlet.  The media didn't cause L the stock to dive when his departure was announced.  It was investors movingL on the news and being nervous.  If anything, the media has calmed the fears,  and the stock is edging back up.  L You can play the game of trying to compare him to CEOs through the ages.  ItL doesn't really matter.  You didn't like him, others do.  He's gone, so let'sI move on.  People always try to personalize things, as if he was the blamee for all our woes.m   ------------------------------  + Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:42:40 +0000 (UTC)u' From: Thomas Dzubin <dzubint@vcn.bc.ca>o* Subject: Need GCC binaries for VAX VMS 5.5) Message-ID: <aqukh0$642$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca>e  D Sorry about this... I know asking about GNU utilities for VMS may be; slightly off-topic in this newsgroup...please bear with me.s  D I have a VAX VMS 5.5 system without a C compiler and I want/need a C	 compiler.oE (before someone bright says "use NetBSD on your VAX" ...yes, I would,iB but NetBSD doesn't support DSSI disks ...besides, I prefer VMS :-)  B yes, I have done the usual searches (google, altavista) for a siteB which has the BINARIES of a relatively recent copy of GCC (the Gnu4 Compiler Collection) for VAX VMS v5.5 ...but no luck  F Obviously, I can get the sources just fine, but I don't have a machine+ with even DEC C that I can compile them on.tE My last resort, I guess, is to do a cross-compile on an Intel x86 boxeG specifying vax vms as the target (I've never done that before...does itI work?)  ' I see various pages on the web that saya?   "The VMS version of GNU CC is distributed in a backup saveset19    containing both source code and precompiled binaries."EG ...trouble is, I cannot find this backup saveset for download anywhere!0   Help!A Sorry for the silly question.g  
 Thomas Dzubino( Calgary, Vancouver, or Saskatoon  CANADA   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:30:56 +0100t6 From: Martin Heller <martin.nospam.heller@mheller.org>. Subject: Re: Need GCC binaries for VAX VMS 5.5* Message-ID: <3DD2E0B0.3060605@mheller.org>  A Is a pre-build gcc-2.7.1 for VMS 5.1 enough as a starting point ? 9 You can get it from ftp://ftp.cco.caltech.edu/pub/rankin/n Yours,
 Martin Hellere   Thomas Dzubin schrieb:F > Sorry about this... I know asking about GNU utilities for VMS may be= > slightly off-topic in this newsgroup...please bear with me.t > F > I have a VAX VMS 5.5 system without a C compiler and I want/need a C > compiler. G > (before someone bright says "use NetBSD on your VAX" ...yes, I would, D > but NetBSD doesn't support DSSI disks ...besides, I prefer VMS :-) > D > yes, I have done the usual searches (google, altavista) for a siteD > which has the BINARIES of a relatively recent copy of GCC (the Gnu6 > Compiler Collection) for VAX VMS v5.5 ...but no luck > H > Obviously, I can get the sources just fine, but I don't have a machine- > with even DEC C that I can compile them on.sG > My last resort, I guess, is to do a cross-compile on an Intel x86 boxtI > specifying vax vms as the target (I've never done that before...does itI > work?) > ) > I see various pages on the web that saysA >   "The VMS version of GNU CC is distributed in a backup savesetc; >    containing both source code and precompiled binaries."eI > ...trouble is, I cannot find this backup saveset for download anywhere!c >  > Help!o > Sorry for the silly question.a >  > Thomas Dzubinr* > Calgary, Vancouver, or Saskatoon  CANADA >    ------------------------------  + Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 01:31:47 +0000 (UTC)s' From: Thomas Dzubin <dzubint@vcn.bc.ca>d. Subject: Re: Need GCC binaries for VAX VMS 5.5) Message-ID: <aquue3$a51$1@luna.vcn.bc.ca>   ( I will download and try it out...thanks!  F In comp.os.vms Martin Heller <martin.nospam.heller@mheller.org> wrote:C > Is a pre-build gcc-2.7.1 for VMS 5.1 enough as a starting point ?n; > You can get it from ftp://ftp.cco.caltech.edu/pub/rankin/i > Yours, > Martin Hellerh   > Thomas Dzubin schrieb:G >> Sorry about this... I know asking about GNU utilities for VMS may be-> >> slightly off-topic in this newsgroup...please bear with me. >>  G >> I have a VAX VMS 5.5 system without a C compiler and I want/need a C. >> compiler.H >> (before someone bright says "use NetBSD on your VAX" ...yes, I would,E >> but NetBSD doesn't support DSSI disks ...besides, I prefer VMS :-)8 >> 9E >> yes, I have done the usual searches (google, altavista) for a siteeE >> which has the BINARIES of a relatively recent copy of GCC (the Gnus7 >> Compiler Collection) for VAX VMS v5.5 ...but no luckd >>  I >> Obviously, I can get the sources just fine, but I don't have a machine . >> with even DEC C that I can compile them on.H >> My last resort, I guess, is to do a cross-compile on an Intel x86 boxJ >> specifying vax vms as the target (I've never done that before...does it	 >> work?)  >> n* >> I see various pages on the web that sayB >>   "The VMS version of GNU CC is distributed in a backup saveset< >>    containing both source code and precompiled binaries."J >> ...trouble is, I cannot find this backup saveset for download anywhere! >> f >> Help!  >> Sorry for the silly question. >> S >> Thomas Dzubin+ >> Calgary, Vancouver, or Saskatoon  CANADAC >> 6   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:57:28 -0800o$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com># Subject: RE: OT: Hamburger Flippingn0 Message-ID: <01C28B03.8B6FADF0@sulfer.icius.com>   You just pushed a button.c  F American cheese, speaking as a Brit who discovered it late in life, isC not food. It may have some other uses, perhaps as replacing damagedAF gaskets in engines, but the last thing I would recommend is eating it.; Think Kraft cheese slices without the taste. Yes, that bad.p  D The Americans actually make substances they name after real cheeses,E like "cheddar" for example. It's bright orange. This is probably best G used for keeping animals out of your back garden. Each piece would have-G a range of several yards, if the animals have any taste. I suspect in a : pinch it would be a reasonable hand to hand combat weapon.  @ Americans, try this. Get into a big supermarket, and try to findC something called "Kerrygold Irish Cheddar". It's fairly good stuff,bC although not quite up to the stuff you can get in farmhouses aroundoD Cheddar in England. If you're adventurous, freeze it for a couple of8 days before eating it. It'll get stronger and crumblier.   Shanen   -----Original Message------ From: David M Smith [mailto:dsmit115@csc.com]t* Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 7:04 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com'# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippinge    8 Assuming you aren't joking, check out American cheese at  > 	http://www.ilovecheese.com/cheese_profile.asp?Cheese=American    E On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:23:35 +0000, Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy.. <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> wrote:  4 >What form of food stuff is American cheese. Does it. >fall into the same category as say a Twinkie.  H ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -rE David M. Smith 302.391.8533                       dsmit115 at csc dott comuC Computer Sciences Corporation     (Opinions are those of the writerY only)UH ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -r   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:10:16 -0800t$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com># Subject: RE: OT: Hamburger Flippinge0 Message-ID: <01C28B05.6248F100@sulfer.icius.com>  F Going anywhere near central London, Brian? If so, swing past LiverpoolH street station. On the way in past the Horrendous Rusty Scrap Metal HeapH sculpture there's a specialist cheese shop that'll make your jaw hit theH ground. Or at least, there was when I worked just up the road from there5 a few years ago. Can anyone confirm it's still there?c   ShaneE   -----Original Message-----B From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG]+ Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 10:33 AMW To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comc# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger FlippingA    D In article <3DD27247.8030909@nospamn.sun.com>, Andrew Harrison SUNUK; Consultancy <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com> writes:g >e >  >David M Smith wrote:t; >> Assuming you aren't joking, check out American cheese ati >> aA >> 	http://www.ilovecheese.com/cheese_profile.asp?Cheese=Americanv >> l >a >I was joking. >S4 >But a visit to the website confirmed my suspicions. >a/ >Plastic, pre-sliced (the death of real cheese)e >and flavourless.h >m1 >What was also interesting about the site was howf >little choice there was.u >n3 >No goats cheese, missing the joint kings of cheesen4 >Stilton and Roquefort and full of pictures of round  H Yummm.  Stop that.  I can wait to get back to England and chow down some< Blue Stilton and a fine bitter.  Just 4 months and counting.   --2 VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001 VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM            r5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" p   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:07:01 GMT $ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippings8 Message-ID: <00A16E95.A2CF621C@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  o In article <DfsA9.55254$YSz1.41891@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:c >oL >"Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy" <Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com>4 >wrote in message news:3DD23637.5@nospamn.sun.com... >> >>( >> winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote:9 >> > In article <aqt53f0311t@drn.newsguy.com>, Alan Greig  ><a.greig@virgin.net> writes:r >> >A >> >>In article <3DD1436B.29BA97C8@Flying-Disk.com>, Alan says...s >> >> L >> > (Jack in the Box has the "Breakfast Jack", which is in fact a fried egg >withtI >> > American cheese and a transparently-thin slice of ham on a hamburger  >bun.) >> > >>6 >> What form of food stuff is American cheese. Does it0 >> fall into the same category as say a Twinkie. >  >sF >'American  cheese' is a square of brightly colored processed 'cheese'H >approximately 15cm x 15cm x 3mm. It is rather rubbery in its mechanicalL >properties, lacking in texture, and has very little in the way of appealingJ >taste. It is alleged that a cow had some involvement at some point in the >production process. >sG >Although it is used as a food substance (in hamburgers, grilled cheese0M >sandwiches, bacon-lettuce-tomato (BLT) sandwiches), it is probably best used I >as a weather-stripping compound to seal air leaks around window and door1 >frames.  M It's important to leave it in its individual-slice plastic wrapper if you useeJ it for this application.  Over the long term, unwrapped slices dry out and begin to fall apart.   -- Alan    ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:24:03 -0500I0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping / Message-ID: <3DD2A6CF.554F9845@vl.videotron.ca>o  % winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote:nN > American cheese is a milk-fat delivery system that adds very moderate levels > of flavor to a cheeseburger.  G Is Kraft's "Chez Whiz"  considered american cheese ?  When you read theaQ ingredients, you begin to wonder if it isn't a weapon of mass destruction :-) :-)   I Was probably some research project for a new type of chemical weapon thataL failed and turned out not to be instantly deadly on humans, so Kraft startedN to market it. (a bit like the rumour that 3M failed to develop a new glue, but. it turned out to be usable for post-it notes).   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:36:26 -0500d2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingm. Message-ID: <3DD2A9BA.89ABFEB4@mindspring.com>   JF Mezei wrote:   ' > winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote:fP > > American cheese is a milk-fat delivery system that adds very moderate levels  > > of flavor to a cheeseburger. > I > Is Kraft's "Chez Whiz"  considered american cheese ?  When you read the S > ingredients, you begin to wonder if it isn't a weapon of mass destruction :-) :-)c  0 "American Cheese", "Velveeta", and "Cheese Whiz"8 are all related products that lie along the same cheesey6 spectrum; they primarily differ in viscosity, although0 "American Cheese" also tastes somewhat different5 and is probably less salty; it's probably the products. that most non-Americans would consider closest2 to "real cheese" (in the same sense that you might4 say a Phillip Glass Opera is closest to, oh, Puccini or Verdi :-). )k  2 And, of course, no one has yet mentioned the great2 childhood controversy: "Orange or White?" (One can- usually buy a given company's product with ora* without some orange coloring agent.) There) are people who *SWEAR* that the differentl1 colors from the same company taste different, butl0 I've tried a few folks on a "single-blind" taste# test and they've invariably failed.i   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:06:31 -0500O0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingn. Message-ID: <3DD2B0C0.8462BC7@vl.videotron.ca>  ( Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy wrote:4 > No goats cheese, missing the joint kings of cheese5 > Stilton and Roquefort and full of pictures of roundm3 > glutinous logs of fat lovingly sliced into little$ > frisbees.p > 8 > Perhaps the Canadians do better cheese, they certainly > do better bacon.  D If you rely on advertising, then you'll only know about the chemicalG concuctions produced in large industrial vats for use by McDonalds etc.   M But if you go to any good food store in the USA, I am sure you will find someg real and fine cheeses.    N Perhaps the difference between Canada and USA is that real cheese is easier toJ get (eg: available at lower-end stores whereas in the USA you may not find  fine cheeses at low end stores).  K The problem in the USA is that the food industry is driven by money, not byhK taste. And they know that with advertising, they can convince people to eat M even stuff like Cheese Whiz whose list of ingredienst make it look like a Dowe+ Chemical product more than a Kraft product.o  I So those large corporations feel it is more cost effective to shove those E chemical products down thr throaths of americans, compensated by moresN advertising which makes the product appear edible. And folks get used to this.  P But that does not mean that real/good/fine cheeses are not available in the USA.    K The USA has mass-produced, low quality software from Microsoft, but it alsoON has VMS, which is a high quality, outstanding product, it is just not marketedM well so folks from outside the USA tend to think of the USA as producing onlynA junk Microsoft software. I think that the same applies to cheese.-   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:11:36 GMTi$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU# Subject: RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping-8 Message-ID: <00A16E96.47333838@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  W In article <01C28B03.8B6FADF0@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:- >You just pushed a button. >,G >American cheese, speaking as a Brit who discovered it late in life, is:D >not food. It may have some other uses, perhaps as replacing damagedG >gaskets in engines, but the last thing I would recommend is eating it.e< >Think Kraft cheese slices without the taste. Yes, that bad.  = The stuff _named_ "American Cheese" matches this description.r   >gE >The Americans actually make substances they name after real cheeses,eF >like "cheddar" for example. It's bright orange. This is probably bestH >used for keeping animals out of your back garden. Each piece would haveH >a range of several yards, if the animals have any taste. I suspect in a; >pinch it would be a reasonable hand to hand combat weapon.   O But we also make some quite decent cheeses, just not in mass quantities.  I buypL Vermont cheddar at Trader Joe's.  There are US-produced goat cheeses, and so on.c   >DA >Americans, try this. Get into a big supermarket, and try to finddD >something called "Kerrygold Irish Cheddar". It's fairly good stuff,D >although not quite up to the stuff you can get in farmhouses aroundE >Cheddar in England. If you're adventurous, freeze it for a couple ofn9 >days before eating it. It'll get stronger and crumblier.s >    Yup, that stuff's okay too.o   -- Alan    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 15:10:32 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) # Subject: RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping 3 Message-ID: <uPLr6V7wl4sJ@eisner.encompasserve.org>i  W In article <01C28B03.8B6FADF0@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:  > You just pushed a button.| > H > American cheese, speaking as a Brit who discovered it late in life, is > not food.2  D    Most of the Brits who've complained to me about American cheeses,G    complain that they're dead.  They're used to putting a cheese out toe@    warm to room temperature with the resulting improvements liveE    cultures will make.  With an American cheese, all you get is a bitA    of drying out.   B    Until recently our yogurt had live cultures, but our cheese wasG    pasturized.  Now if you look carefully you can find cheese with live ;    cultures.  I guess you can find yogurt that's dead, too.P   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:06:13 -0800i$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com># Subject: RE: OT: Hamburger Flippingt0 Message-ID: <01C28B1D.E7531750@sulfer.icius.com>  E Orange or white? Wash your mouth out, Atlant. It /has/ to be white ifIE it's cheddar. There are some legitimately orange cheeses, but cheddart> isn't one of them. The orange bit is an American mutation (and
 abomination).    Shanea   -----Original Message-----9 From: Atlant Schmidt [mailto:atlantnospam@mindspring.com]o+ Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:36 AM  To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com0# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingp     JF Mezei wrote:u  ' > winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU wrote: I > > American cheese is a milk-fat delivery system that adds very moderatee levels  > > of flavor to a cheeseburger. > I > Is Kraft's "Chez Whiz"  considered american cheese ?  When you read the K > ingredients, you begin to wonder if it isn't a weapon of mass destruction  :-) :-)h  0 "American Cheese", "Velveeta", and "Cheese Whiz"8 are all related products that lie along the same cheesey6 spectrum; they primarily differ in viscosity, although0 "American Cheese" also tastes somewhat different5 and is probably less salty; it's probably the producty. that most non-Americans would consider closest2 to "real cheese" (in the same sense that you might4 say a Phillip Glass Opera is closest to, oh, Puccini or Verdi :-). )   2 And, of course, no one has yet mentioned the great2 childhood controversy: "Orange or White?" (One can- usually buy a given company's product with or * without some orange coloring agent.) There) are people who *SWEAR* that the differente1 colors from the same company taste different, buto0 I've tried a few folks on a "single-blind" taste# test and they've invariably failed.-   Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 15:13:29 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)p# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingf3 Message-ID: <6KmBQ6+DbN+f@eisner.encompasserve.org>4  b In article <3DD2A6CF.554F9845@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: > 6 > Is Kraft's "Chez Whiz"  considered american cheese ?  ;    No.  But it is considered the but of a great many jokes.d  B > (a bit like the rumour that 3M failed to develop a new glue, but0 > it turned out to be usable for post-it notes).  F    Originally they used paraffin for post-its but couldn't sell it to D    the corporate execs as a viable product.  So they just left them I    around the office until all the lower downs saw how usefull they were.    ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 15:17:24 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)7# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingp3 Message-ID: <7iwNlnBvgcNg@eisner.encompasserve.org>o    Atlant Schmidt wrote:4 > And, of course, no one has yet mentioned the great4 > childhood controversy: "Orange or White?" (One can/ > usually buy a given company's product with or"' > without some orange coloring agent.) t  F    All I knew for sure was the one time I had white American cheese itE    was a much better flavor than any orange American cheese I've everH    had.c  /    Very well might have been a different brand.e   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:08:21 GMT." From:   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG# Subject: RE: OT: Hamburger Flippingd0 Message-ID: <00A16EB7.5DDB6601@SendSpamHere.ORG>  W In article <01C28B05.6248F100@sulfer.icius.com>, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> writes:sG >Going anywhere near central London, Brian? If so, swing past LiverpooltI >street station. On the way in past the Horrendous Rusty Scrap Metal HeapuI >sculpture there's a specialist cheese shop that'll make your jaw hit thedI >ground. Or at least, there was when I worked just up the road from there 6 >a few years ago. Can anyone confirm it's still there?  H Heathrow to Paddington via the express train and underground to VictoriaH and staying at the Thistle Victoria for three days.  Then a few days (5)G around Southern England culminating my trip for three days at a ButlinsMG in Minehead.  I suppose, at your recommendation, that I might make that  cheese stop part of the tour.S   --O VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001     VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COMi             5   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" A   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:15:37 -0500t0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingc/ Message-ID: <3DD2C0EF.3D336043@vl.videotron.ca>    Atlant Schmidt wrote:t4 > And, of course, no one has yet mentioned the great4 > childhood controversy: "Orange or White?" (One can/ > usually buy a given company's product with orf' > without some orange coloring agent.) o    M Oh, I thought the chemical concuctions were orange by default, with colouringb8 added to make them look like cheese :-) :-)  :-) :-) :-)   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:33:34 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>r# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping I Message-ID: <ijBA9.82041$MGm1.66730@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>c  = "JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> wrote in messagec( news:3DD2B0C0.8462BC7@vl.videotron.ca... >oJ > The problem in the USA is that the food industry is driven by money, not byI > taste. And they know that with advertising, they can convince people to  eatoK > even stuff like Cheese Whiz whose list of ingredienst make it look like ao Dowc- > Chemical product more than a Kraft product.a  I Slightly related....in the US, most products have a 'Sell By' date on the-L package, which is clearly of benefit to the retailer more than the consumer.K The purchaser is left wondering 'how much longer til this food is no longere fit for human consumption'.s  I In Canada, most products have the date listed as a 'Best Consumed Before' / label, which is clearly more consumer oriented.   I There are some products in each country that use the others nomenclature.e  J One area where the US is better than Canada in food package labeling is inK the listing of nutritional ingredients -  it's mandatory in the US and onlye optional in Canada at present.     > K > So those large corporations feel it is more cost effective to shove thosedG > chemical products down thr throaths of americans, compensated by moretJ > advertising which makes the product appear edible. And folks get used to this.t  * Can you say genetically modified organism?   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Nov 2002 23:10:14 GMT2 From: ap333@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Marvin Kaplansky)# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger FlippingA/ Message-ID: <aqum4m$rp2$1@freenet9.carleton.ca>m  Q Andrew Harrison SUNUK Consultancy (Andrew_No.Harrison_No@nospamn.sun.com) writes:n > David M Smith wrote:; >> Assuming you aren't joking, check out American cheese atr >> oA >> 	http://www.ilovecheese.com/cheese_profile.asp?Cheese=American  >> r >  > I was joking.l > 5 > But a visit to the website confirmed my suspicions.t > 0 > Plastic, pre-sliced (the death of real cheese) > and flavourless. > 
  - snip -  > 	 > Regardss > Andrew Harrisone >   C You've all got it backwards. The edible and most nutritious part ofn3 "process cheese product" slices is the clear film. s  H The orange squares of rubbery material are just there to keep the layers of film apart.     Marvin Kaplansky   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:52:08 -0500s From: "ICUSC" <sales@hpaq.net># Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingl/ Message-ID: <ut5p9qmm9ucna8@news.supernews.com>   6 Actually, being a fellow Limey I would have to concur.  I Wimpy was the best burger (and on a whole wheat bun in the 70's even!) in J the UK - The UK was never really famouse for food except a good Vindaloo -J but I still think the best burgers are at the local Breakfast Club here on Tybee Island GA USAm  J A 16OZ "Bear Burger" with a home made bun - Sirloin minced/ground beef for $4.99w, Who needs to eat for the rest of the week???  ; Shane - DId I ever tell you my Dad is from Cannock Staffs ?r? They got a McDonalds there in 96 - Now they're really on t' mapi  1 "Shane Smith" <ssmith@icius.com> wrote in messagec* news:01C289A9.057FB8D0@sulfer.icius.com...H > Truth. Growing up in England I didn't even /see/ a McD's until the midJ > 80's. I used to go to a chain called Wimpy's. Hand grilled, buns toasted@ > dark with a hairline of burn on the edge, everything tasted ofF > something. When I tried McD's and found the only taste came from theG > "special sauce" I was incredibly disappointed. I actually thought thed > meat had gone off. >tD > Damn. Now I'm all nostalgic for the Wimpy stand that used to be in > Stafford town square.n >e > Shane  >s > -----Original Message-----D > From: VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG [mailto:VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG]) > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 5:02 PM  > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com % > Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping  >v >  > In articleF > <hAWz9.60083$MGm1.59010@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John! > Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes:n > >{...snip...}t > >aJ > >Part of the lower sales is that what McDonald's sells isn't necessarily asL > >healthy to eat as other 'fast' foods priced at the same levels. Consumers > >are smartening up to this.e > >oK > >Also, McDonald's absolute profitability is now being driven by issues ofoL > >market saturation, in that they can't simply build new locations in areasK > >that ensure a steady stream of customers and profits.  Their competitors J > >have gotten smart along the way too, and have acquired prime locations.H > >Besides, can you really eat burgers 7 days/week? The novelty has worn off. >lH > I had never eaten at a McD's until I attended college.  A gang took me > toI > a McD's establishment one evening.  Last time I've ever eaten at McD's.e > IgJ > might be able to eat a hamburger 7 days/week but not that item marketted > as a hamburger by McD's inc. >-G > BTW, what *is* that brown discus shaped stuff between the soggy buns?n >  > --4 > VAXman- OpenVMS APE certification number: AAA-0001 > VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM >l6 >   "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?" >i   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Nov 2002 18:31 CSTK' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)w# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingl- Message-ID: <13NOV200218310090@gerg.tamu.edu>u  ' "Tom Cole" <tom.cole@sas.com> writes...oB }Whereas American cheese food products pretty much revert to their= }constituent fats when you do anything interesting to them...   B Nonsense. "American" cheese is better for things involving melting= it than "normal", unprocesses, cheese is. If you are going to ; make, for example, macaroni and cheese I suggest you use ith= instead of plain old cheddar (from which it is made - well, ak@ very young cheddar type cheese anyway; that is then shredded and< heated and has emulsifiers, and often food coloring, added).  : The rest of the world just calls it "processed cheese". As< processed cheese goes, the typical "American" cheese is only lightly processed.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:39:03 -0800-$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com># Subject: RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping 0 Message-ID: <01C28B33.347D1200@sulfer.icius.com>  C Easier, maybe. Better tasting; personally, yeuck. It sticks to your-F tongue too. Doing a proper cheese sauce from scratch may be a bit timeH consuming and a touch tricky, but IMHO it's well worth it. In fact, it'sH one of the few bits of "real" cooking I have actually bothered to learn.F I'll stack my bechamel and cheddar sauce against anything you can make with American cheese.t   Shane    -----Original Message-----4 From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu [mailto:carl@gerg.tamu.edu]* Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:31 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flipping     ' "Tom Cole" <tom.cole@sas.com> writes...rB }Whereas American cheese food products pretty much revert to their= }constituent fats when you do anything interesting to them...e  B Nonsense. "American" cheese is better for things involving melting= it than "normal", unprocesses, cheese is. If you are going tol; make, for example, macaroni and cheese I suggest you use ita= instead of plain old cheddar (from which it is made - well, a @ very young cheddar type cheese anyway; that is then shredded and< heated and has emulsifiers, and often food coloring, added).  : The rest of the world just calls it "processed cheese". As< processed cheese goes, the typical "American" cheese is only lightly processed.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:54:22 -0500n& From: "Daniel Allen" <dallen@nist.gov># Subject: RE: OT: Hamburger Flippingd: Message-ID: <BCEGLBGJDODLELBJIADKEEKBCCAA.dallen@nist.gov>   -----Original Message-----+ From: Shane Smith [mailto:ssmith@icius.com]i* Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 7:39 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comr# Subject: RE: OT: Hamburger Flippingi    C Easier, maybe. Better tasting; personally, yeuck. It sticks to yourtF tongue too. Doing a proper cheese sauce from scratch may be a bit timeH consuming and a touch tricky, but IMHO it's well worth it. In fact, it's    G 	It's neither.  A very reasonable bechamel can be whipped up in roughlyvD 	the same time it takes to melt a pot of Velveta and all three of myB 	boys learned the process as teenagers with no trouble whatsoever.& 	And indeed it is IMO vastly superior.   	Dan  H one of the few bits of "real" cooking I have actually bothered to learn.F I'll stack my bechamel and cheddar sauce against anything you can make with American cheese.f   Shanei   -----Original Message-----4 From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu [mailto:carl@gerg.tamu.edu]* Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:31 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com # Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingi    ' "Tom Cole" <tom.cole@sas.com> writes...lB }Whereas American cheese food products pretty much revert to their= }constituent fats when you do anything interesting to them...a  B Nonsense. "American" cheese is better for things involving melting= it than "normal", unprocesses, cheese is. If you are going tod; make, for example, macaroni and cheese I suggest you use ito= instead of plain old cheddar (from which it is made - well, a2@ very young cheddar type cheese anyway; that is then shredded and< heated and has emulsifiers, and often food coloring, added).  : The rest of the world just calls it "processed cheese". As< processed cheese goes, the typical "American" cheese is only lightly processed.   --- Carl   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:42:23 -0500l& From: "Daniel Allen" <dallen@nist.gov>/ Subject: RE: OT: Hamburger Flipping and the FDAs: Message-ID: <BCEGLBGJDODLELBJIADKKEJPCCAA.dallen@nist.gov>  A 	I was really going to stay out of this in the hopes it would die C 	a quick death but neither has occurred ;-)  If anyone really caresoD 	"American cheese" as regulated by the FDA et.al. is a (pastuerized)B 	blend of several different real cheeses (which may lack characterE 	to our European friends but which are produced by traditional cheese G 	making processes). On the other hand there's the FDA's dreaded "cheeset food" G 	and even worse "cheese product" which are often mistakenly referred tosB 	as "American cheese" and are not produced using anything remotelyD 	resembling traditional cheese making processes or ingredients. I'veD 	tried to impress this distinction on my wife when she goes shoppingF 	but she still drags home those disgusting individually wrapped slicesF 	of plastic goo rather than wait at the deli counter for them to sliceE 	and her order from a block of "real" American cheese. Anyone want to-# 	to guess which one Micky D's uses?2  " 	Next stop: Butter or Oleo anyone?   	Dan     -----Original Message-----4 From: Bob Koehler [mailto:koehler@encompasserve.org]* Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:17 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Coml# Subject: Re: OT: Hamburger Flippingp      Atlant Schmidt wrote:4 > And, of course, no one has yet mentioned the great4 > childhood controversy: "Orange or White?" (One can/ > usually buy a given company's product with or.& > without some orange coloring agent.)  F    All I knew for sure was the one time I had white American cheese itE    was a much better flavor than any orange American cheese I've evera    had.c  /    Very well might have been a different brand.V   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:34:32 -0500u# From: "Tom Cole" <tom.cole@sas.com>E9 Subject: OT: non-stop computing == alternative lifestyle?i/ Message-ID: <aquk1p$rbs$1@license1.unx.sas.com>c  L For as much as HP/Compaq/Digital have disappointed VMS users with missing orI lame marketing and PR activities over the years, at least be assured thati it's not just VMS... :)e   <sophmoric observation>u  I At least in all the copies sent to my company, the Fall 2002 issue of "HPpL 24x7" (the HP Non-Stop computing marketzine) has a bindery/layout error thatK probably isn't the PR message HP wanted to send... the title of the article-3 starting on page 30 is literally in the "gutter"...t   <disclaimer>L Oh give me a break, a disclaimer shouldn't be necessary... it's a PR goof noL matter what your views are... I was just amused, you can be amused or ignore it at your discretion.
 </disclaimer>o   </sophmoric observation>     --# Tom Cole, unrepentant VMS hobbyist.,   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Nov 2002 22:24 CST ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins) 5 Subject: Re: parsing file name (refer to time thread) - Message-ID: <13NOV200222242383@gerg.tamu.edu>e  2 Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> writes... }Alpha VMS v7.3-1n }DEC C v6.2. (I think) } - }I'm using FABs, NAMs, and XABs to get info. n } H }I can get the files, get the fule filespec. But I'm not sure how to get( }just the name, and type out of the NAM. } H }There are addresses in the NAM of where the different parts of the fileC }spec are. NAM.nam$l_name, for example. and NAM.nam$b_name for it's, }length. } F }But I have absolutely no clue as to how to get a string of characters }with that info. } , }What system services can I call to do that? }  }Lyndon    None.   = The nam.nam$l_name is a pointer to the address where the dataf is located.I  , You can do somthing like this, more or less:           char *filename;r [...] 7         filename = (char *)malloc( NAM.nam$b_name + 1);n;         strncpy( filename, NAM.nam$l_name, NAM.nam$b_name);i(         filename[NAM.nam$b_name] = '\0';  5 This copies the name data into its own buffer for it,u7 out of the full buffer you passed to the NAM block (theS3 resultant name buffer) and adds a terminating null.-  D If you were adventurous, you could subtract off the starting addressB of the buffer you passed to get a simple offset into the string if that were more useful to you.v   --- Carl   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:23:06 GMTr4 From: Tim Llewellyn <tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk> Subject: Re: Patch installationg0 Message-ID: <3DD2A650.7F4A9D27@blueyonder.co.uk>   Chris Sharman wrote: > J > It's that time of year again, when no way nohow can I schedule downtime.  K So, put in a request for an upgrade to triple node hot-upgradeable cluster,-L like Kerry is so fond of telling us about. After all, down-time is obvioulsy expensive for your systems.n     > B > Patches arrive with reboot required, so I keep them for January.L > Would it be safe to install them & not reboot, or am I better keeping them > uninstalled ?ML > Installing without rebooting seems to go against the stock warning carried
 > by patches.hH > I'm never sure whether the warning is because the patch is ineffectiveN > before reboot, or because the system is unstable in the window between patch/ > & reboot, or whether it's just belt & braces.   T As with other areas of VMS, if you know what you are doing you may get away with it,T depending on what the patch does. If new shareable images are installed or DCLTablesN is affected, the old processes will carry on using the old versions until theyM complete, you  will need to restart affected processes, or wait for a reboot. A The catch all disclaimer does of course mean you are on your own.l   > N > I've never had a problem, either installing several patches & doing a singleI > reboot after, or installing a patch & scheduling a reboot for some lessoG > civilised hour, but I'm a bit chary of installing a patch requiring a,1 > reboot, & then not doing the reboot for months.m  I yup, for one thing you won't have tested whether your system will boot atBQ whatever time (probably controlled by factors outside your control) the system is  eventually booted again.   > , > For example, the sys 5 patch just arrived.N > I could not install it, and the system could crash, and it still wouldn't be > installed.L > If I installed it, & didn't reboot, at least it would be installed after a% > crash or power failure or whatever.s > J > I'm just after maximising uptime - potentially I could see a patch for aH > crash, and then several crashes for that reason or another, or a powerJ > failure. At least if the patch is installed, the problems it fixes won't- > cause more than one crash (the reboot one).n  M If there is sufficient buisiness justification for my initial suggestion, youeN should go that way. Otherwise, there are risks associated with either approach that you will need to consider.o  L My preferred option would be, unless you are having persistent problems likeR crashes due to issues that the patches correct, then wait until you have scheduledP downtime to install. Attempt to bring forward the scheduled downtime if level 1  patches are involved.e     Regards,   > 	 > Thanks,  > Chrisn   -- M tim.llewellyn@blueyonder.co.uk m  H * PLEASE NOTE tim.llewellyn@cableinet.co.uk address is NO LONGER VALID *   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:38:18 -0500n+ From: "Martin O'Connor" <moconnor@dvfs.com>i) Subject: Re: Slow performance with BACKUP_5 Message-ID: <aqu9ro$dditj$1@ID-118202.news.dfncis.de>i  Q On DSN there is a good article on rules for tuning backup. The article is called:-K "[OpenVMS] Setting Up Params For OpenVMS BACKUP Operation (V5.2 and Above)".  W In particular it discusses the relationship between the various quotas in the UAF file.pL Another place to look for information is in the FAQ on the OpenVMS web site.   Marty-    3 "Rudolf Wingert" <win@fom.fgan.de> wrote in message-0 news:200211110741.IAA28131@sinet1.fom.fgan.de... Hello,  C years ago I did see the worst case of backup performance. I startedFD multiple IMAGE backups on the backup node, which was the same as theC boot node. After a different time, the whole cluster hangs. NothingtC goes on. There was no disk and tape transfer. Nothing did happen. AcE crash did show, that the system did loop. If I did remember right, it @ was within the swapper. Reducing the process quota did stop thisG failure. The problem is, that nobody knows, which quota the problem is. C But I do not have the time to test different values, so my question: is, do anybody know the rules?   TIA and regards Rudolf Wingert  H P.S. The problem started with OpenVMS 7.1 (our actual version is 7.1-2),G the same version since I can't reboot the boot server without a clustero4 crash or hang. In earlier version this was possible.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:32:00 -0500o0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca>" Subject: Re: system calls, RE time/ Message-ID: <3DD2A8AC.7DA693A5@vl.videotron.ca>v   Bob Koehler wrote:H >    Format 7 days delta time into binary using $BINTIM.  That gives youB >    a 64 bit integer that will be negative.  Just add that to theI >    absolute time you had above, since the delta time is negative you'lloH >    get a smaller 64 bit integer representing the earlier absolute time >    "seven days ago".  K I disagree. While this will work on a specific machine, it will not work oniJ all VMS machines. For instance, if you compile the application on VAX, youF won't be able to use this trick. Lib$ADD_TIMES and SUB_TIMES provide a4 platform independat way to do math with time values.    J >    Check for file time's 64 bit time stamp less than "seven days ago"'s.D >    If not, then it's older.  Just compare the two 64 bit integers.  M How does one do that on VAX ?  I see to recall a routine that compared times,1O but I think I may have been dreaming because I can't seem to locate it anymore.o   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 15:42:02 -0600- From: koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)p" Subject: Re: system calls, RE time3 Message-ID: <7t1OcU5VrtSY@eisner.encompasserve.org>0  b In article <3DD2A8AC.7DA693A5@vl.videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes: > Bob Koehler wrote:I >>    Format 7 days delta time into binary using $BINTIM.  That gives youhC >>    a 64 bit integer that will be negative.  Just add that to theaJ >>    absolute time you had above, since the delta time is negative you'llI >>    get a smaller 64 bit integer representing the earlier absolute timea >>    "seven days ago".m > M > I disagree. While this will work on a specific machine, it will not work on1L > all VMS machines. For instance, if you compile the application on VAX, youH > won't be able to use this trick. Lib$ADD_TIMES and SUB_TIMES provide a6 > platform independat way to do math with time values.  :    We were talking about an Alpha.  On VAX you can use theH    LIB$ADDX/LIB$SUBX routines for the extended arithmetic instructions, I    or you can use the LIB$xxx_TIMES routines if you get the arguments in p    the right order.s  G    Since I started doing this on a VAX before LIBxxx_TIMES was providedi,    I've always done it as 64 bit arithmetic.  $    If you use LIB$ADD_TIMES you get:6       absolute time + delta time = later absolute time6       delta time + absolute time = later absolute time1       delta time + delta time = bigger delta timee+    none of which give you the earlier time.H  $    If you use LIB$SUB_TIMES you get:>       later absolute time - earlier absolute time = delta time8       absolute time - delta time = earlier absolute time9       larger delta time - smaller delta time = delta time.  G    So in this caase you need to use LIB$SUB_TIMES in the second manner.a   > K >>    Check for file time's 64 bit time stamp less than "seven days ago"'s. E >>    If not, then it's older.  Just compare the two 64 bit integers.n > O > How does one do that on VAX ?  I see to recall a routine that compared times, Q > but I think I may have been dreaming because I can't seem to locate it anymore.t  F    Again, see the LIB$ routines access to extended arithmetic.  I usedE    them for this on VAXen for years.  If you the two 64 bit nubers onaH    a VAX correctly you just have to look to see if the high longword is C    negative.  I used a record of two INTEGER*4 for this in Fortran,@8    A structure of two ints would be the equivalent in C.   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Nov 2002 19:34 CSTa' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)"" Subject: Re: system calls, RE time- Message-ID: <13NOV200219342588@gerg.tamu.edu>g  4 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> writes... }Bob Koehler wrote:hI }>    Format 7 days delta time into binary using $BINTIM.  That gives younC }>    a 64 bit integer that will be negative.  Just add that to thehJ }>    absolute time you had above, since the delta time is negative you'llI }>    get a smaller 64 bit integer representing the earlier absolute timec }>    "seven days ago".( } L }I disagree. While this will work on a specific machine, it will not work onK }all VMS machines. For instance, if you compile the application on VAX, you G }won't be able to use this trick. Lib$ADD_TIMES and SUB_TIMES provide ao5 }platform independat way to do math with time values.a  F This, too, will not work on all VMS machines. The LIB$*_TIMES routines) are not present on older versions of VMS.i  F This, like your point, is not relevent. The platform he indicated thatJ he had is an Alpha. It is highly unlikely that they are going to downgrade	 to a VAX.0  K }>    Check for file time's 64 bit time stamp less than "seven days ago"'s.rE }>    If not, then it's older.  Just compare the two 64 bit integers.r } N }How does one do that on VAX ?  I see to recall a routine that compared times,P }but I think I may have been dreaming because I can't seem to locate it anymore.   He doesn't have a VAX.  E But you can do it. On a VAX you store the 64 bit value as an array ofaE two 32 bit values. The fiddling needed to do the comparison isn't allyJ that complicated - and LIB$ADDX/SUBX are older than the time math routinesE and you can pass it the address of the first element in the array andSF it works fine. The result is an array of 2 32 bit values, one of whichG is actually signed and the other of which isn't. You can check the sign E bit of the one where it is stored to see if the value is negative and A use that information to determine which was greater. THis is whatt it looks like in Fortran:b   [...]n           integer*4 start_time(2)      &            ,end_time(2)        integer*4 tmp_time(2) [...]h ceL c subtract start time from event time, if positive then event is after start ch@                status= lib$subx( tmp_time, start_time, tmp_time)?                if ( .not. status) call lib$signal(%val(status))aA                if (.not. (btest (tmp_time(2),31))) then !positive  [...]   E As you can see, it isn't very hard even without the add/subtract time 8 routines. The time routines may make it slightly easier.  3 It's even easier on an Alpha, which is what he has.c   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Nov 2002 22:04 CSTi' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)m" Subject: Re: system calls, RE time- Message-ID: <13NOV200222043245@gerg.tamu.edu>r  2 Lyndon Bartels <lbartels@pressenter.com> writes... }Again I'm using C.- } I }1. I remember reading somewhere a chart that talked about how do declareUE }variables that are used in the system services. If the routine needsSH }"this" declare it "thusly".  I went looking and couldn't find it. Or am
 }I imagining?<    W http://www.openvms.compaq.com:8000/731FINAL/5841/5841pro_098.html#60_vaxcimplementationr  H OpenVMS Programming Concepts Manual, Appendix E, section E.6 " C and C++ Implementations".a  E This manual explaines everything. Well, not really. It does, however,s: explain a lot of things broadly and some things in detail.  > }2. The binary times are all "quadword" How do I declare that?  = Quadword = 64 bit integer. Try __int64. If yu prefer, you canyB include ints.h and get the int64 and uint64 data types (signed andB unsiged, respectively) if you don't want to use the base type that" starts with the doube underscores.  C Or you can do it in other ways. As you'll see below, the SYS$NUMTIMnF prototype indicates "struct _generic_64" as the data type for the timeA value. This is an overly generic thing - the structure is a union.F of a single unsigned __int64, a 2 element array of unsigned longwords,K and a 4 element arrau of unsigned short ints. This actually seems incorrect F to me as they are unsigned and the time values are more or less signedC (the sign bit is not just a sign bit - it is a flag for telling yourF whether the time value is absolute or delta, this the "more or less").  ? }3. Is comparing two binary times as simple as "if (a > b)" ???b  3 When they are both plain old 64 bit integers, sure.   E }4. JF mention using numtim, and "a array of short ints" do I declarem }that "short int num_time[7];b }Lyndon   , The on-line help tells you the C prototypes:   $ help system_serv $numtim   SYSTEM_SERVICESn  	   $NUMTIM2  H        Converts an absolute or delta time from 64-bit system time format.        to binary integer date and time values.  ?        On Alpha systems, this service accepts 64-bit addresses.d  
        Formatt  %          SYS$NUMTIM  timbuf ,[timadr]e          C Prototype  ?          int sys$numtim  (unsigned short int timbuf [7], struct   .                          _generic_64 *timadr);  9 You can see that it actually needs to be unsigned shorts.s  5 I snipped out your source code which I didn't review.r   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 14 Nov 2002 00:39:49 GMT# From: hoff@hp.nospam (Hoff Hoffman)s1 Subject: RE: Vax Macro Porting - Still Strugglingg* Message-ID: <aqurcl$in3$5@web1.cup.hp.com>  S In article <00A16AAD.48D43F2A@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:.` :In article <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIKELGGAAA.tom@kednos.com>, "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes: :eH :This, and much more, is detailed in the calling standard documents.  IfH :you really want to port this code you are going to have to read and un- :derstant the calling standard.r    F   This code will have to be ported yet again if/when a move to OpenVMSE   on Itanium is desired, as the internals of the calling standard cans<   and do differ between each of the three OpenVMS platforms.      N  ---------------------------- #include <rtfaq.h> -----------------------------J       For additional, please see the OpenVMS FAQ -- www.openvms.compaq.comN  --------------------------- pure personal opinion ---------------------------E         Hoff (Stephen) Hoffman   OpenVMS Engineering   hoff[at]hp.comt   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:19:45 GMTh$ From: winston@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDUA Subject: Re: VMS @ 25 --- Mark Gorham's Presentation at HPETS2002e8 Message-ID: <00A16E97.6A3D068C@SSRL04.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>  n In article <ENsA9.55914$oRV.47245@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> writes: >s6 >"Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote in message- >news:kMicncjsc7jC_kygXTWc3g@metrocast.net...i >> >>H >> And you really can't begin to address the VMS issue without involvingL >> Alpha - a lot.  The mentality that killed Alpha was exactly the mentalityM >> that's killing VMS (just more slowly, for the moment), and unless HP takesiK >> major steps to *prove* that this mentality has changed customers will be G >> reluctant to embrace VMS even if its marketing improves - especiallyl >duringe> >> the time that it can be purchased only on a dying platform. >- >-I >This is the crux of the matter, and one that is not easily resolved. VMS.M >will die in the marketplace if HP does nothing more than they are doing now.b >@G > There have been several companies where new products were prematurelycG >announced to supercede old ones, and current sales tanked, not because"K >customers believed that the new products were bad, but because they wantedbI >to hold off their purchases in order to get more bang for the buck. BothvL >Digital (VAX/Alpha transition) and Apple spring to mind, and Palm if memoryL >serves me correctly. And these were instances where the customers felt that: >the vendor was completely committed to the product lines.    M The Osbourne portable computer is the classic example; premature announcement-I of the much-better next model resulted in an immediate cessation of sales@9 of the current one, no cash flow, and corporate collapse.r    
 [snippage]   >DJ >On the other hand, actively promoting VMS to a new and expanding customerJ >base, provides for those customers mentioned above a measure of certaintyL >that goes beyond lip-service. It takes matters beyond 'Great product, shame >about the company'.   Indeed.t   -- AlanA   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:37:29 GMTs+ From: "Jeremy Robbins" <jcrobbins2@cox.net>n Subject: VMS Perl Help!d5 Message-ID: <ZmBA9.2695$uJ.109747@news2.east.cox.net>   J I am fairly familiar with PERL in the UNIX world and have created a simpleL script that reads a directory and does some stuff to the files.  This scriptI works great in UNIX (I was testing it on my WS before deploying it to theuC VAX), but needs to be deployed in the VMS world.  I have found somehF information on the web about running PERL in VMS, but I am having some	 problems.hK 1. How to run the perl prgram? I know where PERL.exe is located and have noe problem coding it.H a) I tried adding the following lines to the begining and running with-> @program.pl with no luck
     $ perl"     $ dec/dollar "$$Not-In-Perl$$"E b) I also just left #!/usr/... and ran it with-> perl program.pl thisr6 partially worked, but the program just seemed to stop.K c)I don't get error messages like in UNIX. If I keep use strict; in with not? "my"s there are no errors the program just doesn't do anything?rJ d) How do I read a directory and store the results as an array?  I need toK create an array of all the .TXT files in a directory including the multipleo	 versions. @ my $directory = "/uservol/name/" or should it be my $directory = "uservol:[name]"1 e) the print statement doesn't even seem to work!0 Please Help!!!!!!i jeremy   $ perl $ dec/dollar "$$Not-In-Perl$$" #!/usr/bin/perlp use strict;- my @FilesInDirectory;v	 my $file;.% my $DirectoryName = "/USERVOL/DATA/";o my $FileExtension = ".TXT";i! my $OutputFileName = "links.dat";e
 my $car = "";  my $test = ""; my $requestor="";i my $color = "";d my $title = "";i my $start = "";  my $stop = "";  $ print "Test Am i working on a vax?";   #------Get the list of filesA opendir(DIR, "$DirectoryName") or die"Can't open $DirectoryName";) @FilesInDirectory=readdir(DIR);- closedir(DIR); #------Open output fileM #Look at each file name@! foreach $file (@FilesInDirectory)m {g #If it is a TXT file  if($file=~m/$FileExtension/){  #Build the full path name)   $FullFileName=$DirectoryName."/".$file;d  #Open the fileiC   open(INPUT, "<$FullFileName") or die"Can't open $FullFileName\n";e   @lines=<INPUT>;t   foreach $line (@lines){n   #----Grab Header Information6    $car = substr($line, index($line, "Car : ")+11, 4);7    $test = substr($line, index($line, "Test : ")+7, 5); B    $requestor = substr($line, index($line, "Requestor : ")+12, 6);9    $color = substr($line, index($line, "Color : ")+6, 5);rB    $title = substr($line, index($line, "Title : ")+8, index($line,, "Condition : ")-index($line, "Title : ")-9);,   print OUTPUT "$car;$test;$color;$title\n";   }t  }F  #---Close it and get the next one and save the file with the new nameK  $OutputFileName = $DirectoryName."Ford_".$car."_".$test."_".$color.".txt";l  print "$OutputFileName\n"; F  open(OUTPUT, ">>$OutputFileName") or die"Can't open $OutputFileName";  close(INPUT);  } }e close(OUTPUT);   ------------------------------  % Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:30:46 -0000g! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>S Subject: Re: VMS Perl Help!a/ Message-ID: <ut5rlmaf4hd901@corp.supernews.com>n  * Jeremy Robbins <jcrobbins2@cox.net> wrote: : #!/usr/bin/perlu
 : use strict;r ...  :  } : }s : close(OUTPUT);  , I commented out "use strict;" and ran it ...  
 $ perl xxx.pll? Unmatched right curly bracket at xxx.pl line 51, at end of lines xxx.pl has too many errors.- %SYSTEM-F-ABORT, abort $   D Line 51 is the next to the last line, just before the close(OUTPUT);  1 Remove that extraneous } and the print will work.p  
 $ perl xxx.ple Test Am i working on a vax?UG                            Can't open /USERVOL/DATA/ at xxx.pl line 20. K %RMS-F-DEV, error in device name or inappropriate device type for operation  $o    B Regarding your question about processing file name in a directory,@ opendir() will work just fine\ on VMS, if you use the name of an existing directory.   @ By changing DirectoryName to one that exists on my VMS system, I can run your program and get:d  
 $ perl xxx.pli Test Am i working on a vax?  USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txtt USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txts USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txte USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txts USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txte USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txts USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txtK USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txt- USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txt  USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txtm USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txtu USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txtp USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txtc USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txtc USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txtI USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txtp USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txt  USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txt  USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txta USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txto USER$:[ZARLENGA]Ford___.txtu $   7 So, it runs, but you've got some code bugs to work out.b   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:57:57 GMTu5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>o Subject: Re: RE: VMS Sales3 Message-ID: <99yA9.33$Ql5.1113251@news.cpqcorp.net>n   Bill Todd wrote in message ... >tA >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message@- >news:vawA9.25$nf5.838834@news.cpqcorp.net...F >0 >... >c >> If they are! >> upgrading from VAXes to ES45s,  >nF >The example was an upgrade from VAX to ES40, suggesting that the next0 >upgrade might occur not all that long from now. >i  	 Whatever.   - > by the time they need to upgrade from ES45s - >> to something faster, Itanium will be therem >eH >Well, it *may* be there if it's still alive (nothing is certain in this5 >world), and it'll at least be faster than an ES40...i >o  J I'm confident that it will be there.  Of course, we could all be wiped outK in an alien invasion.  Or you and Atlant might be elected to public office.A   > - or even the Marvel systems.oK >> You can try to poo-poo things by comparing it to "EV8 what-ifs", but you:I >> ignore the fact that Itanium has respectable performance today, and bye thebI >> time that this customer upgrades will be every bit as fast as anything  >elsei
 >> out there.  >rK >Not unless they wait for the 2005-and-later Itanic "what-ifs" (which is tohI >say, not unless they wait for pure vaporware at the present time none of I >whose details have yet even been made public), since we have a very goodiF >idea of where Madison and Montecito will be in 2003 and 2004 and they; >*won't* be 'every bit as fast as anything else out there':s  F What you have is very little official public information, and a lot ofJ speculation.  Coupled with a built-in bias against IPF, and a bias towards" your own favorite vapor - Opteron.   >not as fast asoI >POWER4/5 (which just got a shrink that puts POWER4 in the 64-bit SPECintaF >lead over the 1.25 GHz EV6, and while Madison may catch it briefly inK >SPECint before POWER5 appears the POWER platform's MP scalability may welltJ >be superior to Itanic's - if/when HP gets its Pinnacles chipset out), not asG >fast as Hammer (which seems pretty sure to take the SPECint crown fromnI >*everyone* when it appears, and is slated for the early-2004 shrink thatlH >should allow it to retain it - leaving aside its superior memory and MPJ >features), not as fast as IA32 (if that will satisfy your needs), and not asK >fast as EV7 (Madison may catch it in SPECint, and Montecito may catch EV798H >in SPECint, but for many loads the vastly superior memory bandwidth andJ >latency and the vastly better MP scalability will keep Marvel systems out >front). >d  H Split the hairs.  You are not arguing about performance disparities thatK have much meaning.  Where is Sparc in your comparisons?  This is just minoruL position jockeying over what is the absolute fastest thing out there.  AsideF from the lunatic fringe - does that really matter that much?  Nor do II really care about IA32 performance, heck small CPU count IA32 performanceu often beats Alpha today.  K Yes, in the short term EV7 will be the fastest, baddest, best system on the J planet - and I think high-performance VMS users should all look at this asH being a great, great system to buy.   Yes, a hypothetical EV8 might haveF been even better.  So what?  The statement being made by (I think) Mr.K Smith, was that there would be "nothing" out there to upgrade to from theiraK ES40's -- since obviously without Alpha there is no future for VMS, becauseoF obviously nothing could ever match the performance of the EV* roadmap.  D Patent crap.  There will be IPF systems as fast, cheaper, and fasterK available over time.  If they need something *much* faster than just addingmI an incremental ES40 *or* an Itanium equivalent to their cluster - the EV7hI system will be sold for quite a while, and is a barn burner.  Beyond thataB will be Superdome Itaniums, and it's sucessor systems that will be scaleable, big, and fast.e   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 14:03:07 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: RE: VMS Sales3 Message-ID: <QtKgWNKRkUne@eisner.encompasserve.org>r  k In article <99yA9.33$Ql5.1113251@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:r   > J > Split the hairs.  You are not arguing about performance disparities thatM > have much meaning.  Where is Sparc in your comparisons?  This is just minorlN > position jockeying over what is the absolute fastest thing out there.  Aside> > from the lunatic fringe - does that really matter that much? >   = 	My concern today is pushing more IO.  I have report runs andg> 	month-ends that can always be speeded up.  The user community= 	is very impressed but I would say good systems management iso< 	upping performance and reliability while wisely making the 4 	most of your resources and planning for the future.   	Check out page 4 on this PDF:  m http://www.storageperformance.org/Results/SPC-1/HP-EVA2C12D_2002-10-02/hp_EVA2C12D_ExecSummary_2002-10-02.pdf   C 	20000 IOPS with an 8 millisecond response time.  That is fantasticrC 	and something many of us can use to speed up report runs.  I coulds* 	make use of a subset of those 20000 IOPS < 	(in other words a single EVA would more than do the trick).  M > Yes, in the short term EV7 will be the fastest, baddest, best system on theyL > planet - and I think high-performance VMS users should all look at this as% > being a great, great system to buy.   , 	Faster boxes to drive the faster storage.    E 	And oh by the way, Itanium still isn't fast enough.  How many years  E 	until Itanium is as fast as an EV7?  I mean after all, EV8 has been .) 	murdered and "blah blah blah blah blah."a   				Robh  : And the wind shall say:  "Here were decent godless people:>                           Their only monument the asphalt road:                           And a thousand lost golf balls."-                                 -- T.S. Eliotr   ------------------------------    Date: 13 Nov 2002 14:29:45 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)  Subject: Re: RE: VMS Sales3 Message-ID: <jXIdVyeGzAPt@eisner.encompasserve.org>n  a In article <QtKgWNKRkUne@eisner.encompasserve.org>, young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) writes:sm > In article <99yA9.33$Ql5.1113251@news.cpqcorp.net>, "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> writes:d >  >> wK >> Split the hairs.  You are not arguing about performance disparities thateN >> have much meaning.  Where is Sparc in your comparisons?  This is just minorO >> position jockeying over what is the absolute fastest thing out there.  Aside,? >> from the lunatic fringe - does that really matter that much?  >>   > ? > 	My concern today is pushing more IO.  I have report runs and0@ > 	month-ends that can always be speeded up.  The user community? > 	is very impressed but I would say good systems management isJ> > 	upping performance and reliability while wisely making the 6 > 	most of your resources and planning for the future. >   > 	Check out page 4 on this PDF: > o > http://www.storageperformance.org/Results/SPC-1/HP-EVA2C12D_2002-10-02/hp_EVA2C12D_ExecSummary_2002-10-02.pdf( > E > 	20000 IOPS with an 8 millisecond response time.  That is fantasticyE > 	and something many of us can use to speed up report runs.  I could , > 	make use of a subset of those 20000 IOPS > > 	(in other words a single EVA would more than do the trick). >   E 	Let me add a few qualifiers.  Some (many?) of you may have databasesr? 	in the hundred gigabyte and up range.  In that case, you would 8 	of course be able to scatter table spaces and have themH 	on multiple RAID sets, etc.  I don't large databases.  I have 3 , 4 andB 	12 Gigabyte sized databases.  So something like the EVA is a veryD 	big win.  The report run on a 4 GByte database would do quite whileC 	if scattered across 168 drives and each IO at most is 5-6 ms away.l? 	I easily be able to push 3000+ Random IOPS.  That may saturatehA 	a CPU.  So you certainly want to be at 7.3 and up with FAST_PATH3 	for Fibre Channel.n  C 	Also, a Veritas (my limited understanding) or AIX would be able to D 	place a filesystem across many drives, each drive RAIDed perhaps soD 	you can make up for certain deficiancies in RAID/storage schemes byC 	using the filesystem to effectively stripe across numerous drives.t  I 	Easier/best/ideal of course for NT/2000 and VMS would be to carve out a  ' 	LUN that resides on 168 drives, RAID1.g  + 	Hardware is skewering the filesystem wars.r   				Robt   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:27:12 -0500e* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: RE: VMS Sales2 Message-ID: <P_CdnbssQMMWOk-gXTWc3g@metrocast.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message, news:vawA9.25$nf5.838834@news.cpqcorp.net...   ...t  
 > If they aree  > upgrading from VAXes to ES45s,  E The example was an upgrade from VAX to ES40, suggesting that the nextr/ upgrade might occur not all that long from now.n  ,  by the time they need to upgrade from ES45s, > to something faster, Itanium will be there  G Well, it *may* be there if it's still alive (nothing is certain in thisn4 world), and it'll at least be faster than an ES40...    - or even the Marvel systems.J > You can try to poo-poo things by comparing it to "EV8 what-ifs", but youL > ignore the fact that Itanium has respectable performance today, and by theH > time that this customer upgrades will be every bit as fast as anything else > out there.  J Not unless they wait for the 2005-and-later Itanic "what-ifs" (which is toH say, not unless they wait for pure vaporware at the present time none ofH whose details have yet even been made public), since we have a very goodE idea of where Madison and Montecito will be in 2003 and 2004 and they.J *won't* be 'every bit as fast as anything else out there':  not as fast asH POWER4/5 (which just got a shrink that puts POWER4 in the 64-bit SPECintE lead over the 1.25 GHz EV6, and while Madison may catch it briefly in J SPECint before POWER5 appears the POWER platform's MP scalability may wellL be superior to Itanic's - if/when HP gets its Pinnacles chipset out), not asF fast as Hammer (which seems pretty sure to take the SPECint crown fromH *everyone* when it appears, and is slated for the early-2004 shrink thatG should allow it to retain it - leaving aside its superior memory and MPwL features), not as fast as IA32 (if that will satisfy your needs), and not asJ fast as EV7 (Madison may catch it in SPECint, and Montecito may catch EV79G in SPECint, but for many loads the vastly superior memory bandwidth andmI latency and the vastly better MP scalability will keep Marvel systems out  front).o   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:18:15 -0500n2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: VMS Sales- Message-ID: <3DD2B387.63C3ACA@mindspring.com>e   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:    > Bill Todd wrote in message ... >t/ > > by the time they need to upgrade from ES45s-/ > >> to something faster, Itanium will be there1 > >0J > >Well, it *may* be there if it's still alive (nothing is certain in this7 > >world), and it'll at least be faster than an ES40...n > >o >>L > I'm confident that it will be there.  Of course, we could all be wiped outM > in an alien invasion.  Or you and Atlant might be elected to public office.e  7   Well, that happened, at least once, as you'll recall.g5   I was elected to the Nashua Board of Education. :-)      Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:40:50 -0500a0 From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vl.videotron.ca> Subject: Re: VMS Sales/ Message-ID: <3DD2C6D6.80646F54@vl.videotron.ca>t   Fred Kleinsorge wrote:F > Patent crap.  There will be IPF systems as fast, cheaper, and faster > available over time.  R In your example of someone only now migrated to Alpha, I'd like to take exception:  E It *may* very well be that Intel pulls a rabbit out of its sleeve andsM magically makes IA64 a real winner. But until this happens, IA64 looks like aiN losing fat expensive dog that is spending all its energies trying to keep up ,U slightly behind the pack and hoping very much that the pack won't open more distance.y  K In the past, Alpha's speed combined with VMS's quality to make a remarkable J product. And Alpha's speed compensated for VMS's higher overhead (security: etc). So you could still pitch VMS for high end solutions.  V But with IA64 an "also ran", VMS will lose its performance advantage over competitors.  J Had HP/Compaq waited for IA64 to prove itself before killing Alpha, things  would have been quite different.  L So tell me, what is worse: Saving on EV8 development costs, but getting veryM few sales for the next few years until IA64 gains respectability (if it isn'tnK abandonned), or spending on EV8 to keep that performance advantage and give5N IA64 more years to become mature and give it a chance to catch up and possibly go faster than Alpha ?   ------------------------------  # Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:41:19 GMTs5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>  Subject: Re: VMS Sales3 Message-ID: <jyAA9.45$eD5.1870942@news.cpqcorp.net>a  @ JF Mezei wrote in message <3DD2C6D6.80646F54@vl.videotron.ca>... >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:sG >> Patent crap.  There will be IPF systems as fast, cheaper, and fastera >> available over time.n >nH >In your example of someone only now migrated to Alpha, I'd like to take
 exception: >dF >It *may* very well be that Intel pulls a rabbit out of its sleeve andL >magically makes IA64 a real winner. But until this happens, IA64 looks like aeJ >losing fat expensive dog that is spending all its energies trying to keep up ,L >slightly behind the pack and hoping very much that the pack won't open more	 distance.e >e  J What an unbiased, objective, piece of writing.  IA64 isn't expensive, it'sL as cheap, or cheaper than Alpha or Sparc.  I'm not sure how to quantify whatL "fat" means.  Nor is it a "dog" despite attempts to sell it as such by thoseJ who don't like it.  It's not slightly "behind the pack"  it's right in theF middle of the pack, it's not as fast as some, and not as slow as other5 *major* and *sucessful* architecture implementations.N  L >In the past, Alpha's speed combined with VMS's quality to make a remarkableK >product. And Alpha's speed compensated for VMS's higher overhead (security ; >etc). So you could still pitch VMS for high end solutions.u >u  H VMS consistantly left Alpha speed on the table.  To this day we don't doL architecture-specific optimizations.  We don't take advantage of things likeE kseg space that UNIX uses to it's advantage.  Where was the post-link,F optimizers that you can get for Tru64?  You need only look at how muchG faster V7.3-1 is than the previous versions - to see why we have reallyoK needed to look at performance.  After getting off VAX to something so fast,T) we kind-of took focus off of performance.   H VMS quality will remain HIGH regardless of the architecture.  Don't foolL yourself into thinking that IPF isn't enterprise ready - it is.  And HP willJ be building enterprise class systems.  HIGH END systems.  Even if it isn't7 "as good as EV8 would have been in the same timeframe".q  J >But with IA64 an "also ran", VMS will lose its performance advantage over competitors. >s  H You have lept prematurely to a conclusion.  IA64 won't be an "also ran".E You want an "also ran" in performance - try Sparc.  People buying VMS L *haven't* been buying it because it's faster than UNIX.  In many, many areasF *it wasn't*.  We're working on fixing that, but a *lot* of things wereH harder, and slower - especially if the code originally came from UNIX or Windows.  K >Had HP/Compaq waited for IA64 to prove itself before killing Alpha, thingss! >would have been quite different.a >   K Why?  Unless you have some magic ball that shows you the future, and provesuD beyond any doubt that IA64 "fails".  Right now, that is far from theJ concensus opinion.  Sure, among some small geek circles it is - but heck -I they *care* about non-issues like what a NAT bit is.  But that *isn't* in * the marketplace.  That has yet to be seen.  H >So tell me, what is worse: Saving on EV8 development costs, but getting veryH >few sales for the next few years until IA64 gains respectability (if it isn'teL >abandonned), or spending on EV8 to keep that performance advantage and giveF >IA64 more years to become mature and give it a chance to catch up and possibly >go faster than Alpha ?   H This isn't relevant to the point.  The point is that if you try and stepI back from your anti-IA64 bias for a moment, that you have no basis to say-H IA64 will fail, or is "a dog", or that VMS won't be on it, or that thereL won't be enterprise IA64 systems with VMS on them when the EV7 based systemsJ are no longer competetive with even non-IA64 systems.  How swell EV8 mightL have been is an academic question.  HP will be building industry competetive6 (price and performance) enterprise class IPF hardware.   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:25:10 -0500s* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: RE: VMS Sales2 Message-ID: <a-mcnbkVNd7MQk-gXTWc3Q@metrocast.net>  8 "Rob Young" <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote in message- news:QtKgWNKRkUne@eisner.encompasserve.org...    ...   > > My concern today is pushing more IO.  I have report runs and? > month-ends that can always be speeded up.  The user communitya> > is very impressed but I would say good systems management is< > upping performance and reliability while wisely making the5 > most of your resources and planning for the future.  >B > Check out page 4 on this PDF:x >d >aL http://www.storageperformance.org/Results/SPC-1/HP-EVA2C12D_2002-10-02/hp_EV! A2C12D_ExecSummary_2002-10-02.pdft  I The first thing that caught my eye was the $100/raw GB price ($200/usableoI mirrored GB):  ouch!  And even those prices appear to include about a 35%DI discount (i.e., at list they're over $150/raw GB and $300/usable mirrored  GB)!   >iD > 20000 IOPS with an 8 millisecond response time.  That is fantastic; > and something many of us can use to speed up report runs.   H Let's see:  168 15Krpm drives with an average access time of under 6 ms.G should yield close to 30K IOPS for small random reads without any queuerI optimization (i.e., at low load).  I guess it's the writes that drag downmI the average, though even a load composed solely of mirrored writes shouldrI yield close to 15K IOPS without benefit of queue optimization *or* stabley write-back cache.f  F So what is it about the box that you believe is 'fantastic', given the- innate capabilities of the underlying drives?u  	   I couldp* > make use of a subset of those 20000 IOPS= > (in other words a single EVA would more than do the trick).n >eK > > Yes, in the short term EV7 will be the fastest, baddest, best system ono theeK > > planet - and I think high-performance VMS users should all look at thisa as' > > being a great, great system to buy.  >g+ > Faster boxes to drive the faster storage.t > E > And oh by the way, Itanium still isn't fast enough.  How many years % > until Itanium is as fast as an EV7?e  K We don't know, because no Itanic yet described (or even hinted at) publicly:H will be as fast as EV7(9) in terms of the throughput that you hold dear.J But that does give us a lower limit:  2005 (if an Itanic appears then withJ EV7-style on-chip glue, though recent rumors suggest that 2005 might yieldK only a dual-core Montecito) or 2006-7 (if we have to wait for a new core tob appear).   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:47:41 -0500i* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: RE: VMS Sales2 Message-ID: <a1Cdncr6qsYEeU-gXTWcpg@metrocast.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- news:99yA9.33$Ql5.1113251@news.cpqcorp.net...t  > Bill Todd wrote in message ... > >EC > >"Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in messaget/ > >news:vawA9.25$nf5.838834@news.cpqcorp.net...M   ...n  I > >> You can try to poo-poo things by comparing it to "EV8 what-ifs", buth youiK > >> ignore the fact that Itanium has respectable performance today, and byA > thetK > >> time that this customer upgrades will be every bit as fast as anythingc > >elsee > >> out there.m > >mJ > >Not unless they wait for the 2005-and-later Itanic "what-ifs" (which is toK > >say, not unless they wait for pure vaporware at the present time none of K > >whose details have yet even been made public), since we have a very good H > >idea of where Madison and Montecito will be in 2003 and 2004 and they= > >*won't* be 'every bit as fast as anything else out there':w >2H > What you have is very little official public information, and a lot of > speculation.  H No, Fred:  *you* may be ignorant of what Intel has stated publicly aboutF Madison and Montecito, but that doesn't mean the rest of the world is.  J Intel (both Otellini and some tech honcho whose name I forget) have peggedL Madison's performance at 30% - 50% better than McKinley's.  Intel has statedL that Montecito will incorporate only 'little enhancements' over Madison (andK other Intel statements promise an increase in on-chip cache size to 12 MB -tG which is consistent with the chip's estimated transistor count and thuspE leaves little room for other surprises beyond its shrink to 90 nm.; IeF believe I also recall an Intel indication that if SMT ever appeared inI Itanic form it wouldn't be by Montecito).  Those pretty well characterize(? performance through Montecito - to just what I suggested above.)  >   Coupled with a built-in bias against IPF, and a bias towards$ > your own favorite vapor - Opteron.  J As I've pointed out before, Fred, Opteron is just about as vaporous as EV7H (by the way, a few days ago Paul DeMone stated over at realworldtech.comI that he had information that the EV7 announcement had been deferred untilmG January, apparently not for any technical reason:  any light to shed on.F that?).  Both EV7 and Opteron are in the field, being used by ISVs andL customers, and soon to appear - whereas what Intel may do with Itanic beyondH the three McKinley/Madison/Montecito stooges is *definitely* shrouded in vapor.   > >not as fast asrK > >POWER4/5 (which just got a shrink that puts POWER4 in the 64-bit SPECint H > >lead over the 1.25 GHz EV6, and while Madison may catch it briefly inH > >SPECint before POWER5 appears the POWER platform's MP scalability may wellL > >be superior to Itanic's - if/when HP gets its Pinnacles chipset out), not > asI > >fast as Hammer (which seems pretty sure to take the SPECint crown fromdK > >*everyone* when it appears, and is slated for the early-2004 shrink thatuJ > >should allow it to retain it - leaving aside its superior memory and MPL > >features), not as fast as IA32 (if that will satisfy your needs), and not > asH > >fast as EV7 (Madison may catch it in SPECint, and Montecito may catch EV79J > >in SPECint, but for many loads the vastly superior memory bandwidth andL > >latency and the vastly better MP scalability will keep Marvel systems out
 > >front). > >t >gJ > Split the hairs.  You are not arguing about performance disparities that > have much meaning.  I No:  I'm responding to your statement (still up there above, just in casecI you wish to verify it) that Itanic "will be every bit as fast as anything L else out there."  That's pretty unequivocal, and equally incorrect:  had youE said that Itanic would be "almost as fast as most things out there" Is% wouldn't have had much to argue with.s   - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:08:14 -0500m* From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net> Subject: Re: VMS Sales2 Message-ID: <fyudnYHWTKX0dE-gXTWc3A@metrocast.net>  @ "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com> wrote in message- news:jyAA9.45$eD5.1870942@news.cpqcorp.net...  >aB > JF Mezei wrote in message <3DD2C6D6.80646F54@vl.videotron.ca>...   ...g   > IA64 isn't expensive, it's+ > as cheap, or cheaper than Alpha or Sparc.b  K Hey, Intel could *give* Itanics away without losing much more money on each J one that it does now.  However, at some point Intel seems likely to decideJ it needs to *make* at least something on each one, and unless that doesn'tL occur until some time in the second half of this decade there's considerableJ reason to believe that Itanics will cost a lot more than Alphas (unless HPH turns the milking machine up to '11'), SPARCs, and just about everything else.V   ...o  F > >Had HP/Compaq waited for IA64 to prove itself before killing Alpha, things# > >would have been quite different.O > >V >a > Why?  E Because sales wouldn't have fallen through the floor (and in fact thenK difference would have fully funded completing EV8), customers wouldn't havedL been spooked by the incompetence, perfidy, and mendacity of VMS's owner (andG once you've lost them, it's hard to get them back even if VMS on ItanicdH lives up to the best expectations that you seem to have for it), and theK future of VMS would not have been made even more precarious.  As it is, VMS G must now try to survive until such time as it's once again perceived as-I being available on a platform with a future (assuming that occurs) from a > dependable vendor (assuming HP manages to regain such status).   - bill   ------------------------------   Date: 13 Nov 2002 18:17 CST-' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)m> Subject: Re: What EV am I running? (family name for processor)- Message-ID: <13NOV200218173452@gerg.tamu.edu>   ) Alan Greig <a.greig@virgin.net> writes...uL }In article <01KOTBJL8YPU9ZLF2M@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>, Phillip says... }>L }>> Note - I could not find when the /FULL qualifier was added, but it is inI }>> V7.3 as well as V7.3-1. The $ SHOW CPU /FULL really does have lots of: }>> useful info. < }>= }>It's in 7.2-1H1 as well, and also documented in HELP there.c } Q }Hmm, it isn't in 7.2-1 (no H1) and I'd argue strongly that change shouldn't havet@ }been made in a H release.I do have it on our 7.3-1 test system.  ? The /FULL qualifier is certainly present on VMS V7.2-1. It just,D doesn't produce any output indicating the EV type of the processor.    --- Carl   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.629 ************************oves - especiallyl >duringe> >> the time that it can be purchased only on a dying platform. >- >-I >This is the crux of the matter, and one that is not easily resolved. VMS.M >will die in the marketplace if HP does nothing more than they are doing now.b >@G > There have been several companies where new products were prematurelycG >announced to supercede old ones, and current sales tanked, not because"K >customers believed that the new products were bad, but because they=Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    =Ū    