1 INFO-VAX	Fri, 11 Oct 2002	Volume 2002 : Issue 562       Contents:0 Re: A warning to use bounds checking in BASIC(?)0 Re: A warning to use bounds checking in BASIC(?)0 Re: A warning to use bounds checking in BASIC(?)0 Re: A warning to use bounds checking in BASIC(?)L Re: Accounting shows %SYSTEM-W-CLIFRCEXT, CLI forced exit for TELNET process! Adaptec 39160 (KZPEA) & OpenVMS ? 7 Re: Alphaserver 4100 + 2 FC LP-8000 (freezing/reseting) % Re: boot cdrom, backup image, reboot? . RE: C - overlaying variables in the same PSECT. Re: C - overlaying variables in the same PSECT. Re: C - overlaying variables in the same PSECT? Re: CERT Advisory CA-2002-28 Trojan Horse Sendmail Distribution ? Re: CERT Advisory CA-2002-28 Trojan Horse Sendmail Distribution ? Re: CERT Advisory CA-2002-28 Trojan Horse Sendmail Distribution  Re: ev6 still beats Itanium II Re: File convert ? Re: File convert ? Re: File convert ? Re: File convert ?% Re: Grant an identifier to an image ? % Re: Grant an identifier to an image ? % Re: Grant an identifier to an image ?  Re: graphics card problem  Re: graphics card problem  Re: Hobbyist kit Contents  Re: Hobbyist kit Contents  Re: Hobbyist kit Contents  Re: Hobbyist kit Contents 2 Re: Hobbyist kit Contents - some rambling thoughts Re: HP to push .NET big time4 Judge: Itanium Violates Patents, Injunction Possible8 Re: Judge: Itanium Violates Patents, Injunction Possible8 Re: Judge: Itanium Violates Patents, Injunction Possible8 Re: Judge: Itanium Violates Patents, Injunction Possible' Re: Ncurses porting and cbreak(ed) read # Re: OpenVMS 25th anniversary survey < OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackers@ Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackers@ RE: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackers@ Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackers@ Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackers@ Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackers@ Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackers@ Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackersP Re: Press Release  LEGATO Teams with HP To Release An Industry-First For Backup 0 Re: Problem copying large files from VMS to Unix* Problems with Printer-Queues on VMS V7.3-1- Re: Scroll mouse question for Fred Kleinsorge  SEAGATE ST336706LC Disk Drive ! Re: SEAGATE ST336706LC Disk Drive  Re: singular and plural of VAX RE: singular and plural of VAX RE: singular and plural of VAX Re: singular and plural of VAX RE: singular and plural of VAX Re: singular and plural of VAX Re: singular and plural of VAX RE: singular and plural of VAX RE: singular and plural of VAX Technical Question Re: Technical Question Re: Technical Question RE: Technical Question Re: Technical Question RE: Technical Question Re: Technical QuestionC Re: Trying to install OVMS 7.0 on Digital Alphaserver 1000 4/266... C Re: Trying to install OVMS 7.0 on Digital Alphaserver 1000 4/266...  Why is LTA0: offline mounted? ! Re: Why is LTA0: offline mounted? ( Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPed( RE: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPed ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!  ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004! # Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!   F ----------------------------------------------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:50:05 -0400 & From: "Ed Vogel" <ed.vogel@compaq.com>9 Subject: Re: A warning to use bounds checking in BASIC(?) , Message-ID: <3da6e51f_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  = "Randy Park" <rjpark@mindspring.nospaam.com> wrote in message - news:ao59rm$lnc$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...  || <Preach mode on> < | Getting back to bounding checking...  Properly written and8 | tested code shouldn't need bounds checking.  Having it= | allows us BASIC programmers to get lazy a bit.  Having said 9 | this, I wish C had bounds checking and I wish Microsoft < | would use it.  How many times have you heard of C programs< | that have memory leaks or buffer overflows.  At least if C7 | had such a feature, the software that is commercially " | produced would be more reliable. | <Preach mode off>  | 
     Hi Randy,   7     We added bounds checking to Compaq C some time ago. '     (/CHECK=BOUNDS....just like BASIC).   B     Of course the C array rules are a little tricker than BASIC's,;     but I think we catch most of the cases we can (and even /     warn you about some of the cases we can't).        Ed Vogel     Compaq C Engineering.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:09:05 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>9 Subject: Re: A warning to use bounds checking in BASIC(?) . Message-ID: <3DA6F7A1.CF55EEE0@mindspring.com>   Ed Vogel wrote:   9 >     We added bounds checking to Compaq C some time ago. ) >     (/CHECK=BOUNDS....just like BASIC).   * There you go again, taking all the thrills out fof C! Sheesh!   [:-)]     D >     Of course the C array rules are a little tricker than BASIC's,= >     but I think we catch most of the cases we can (and even 1 >     warn you about some of the cases we can't).   ' More seriously, I can see how you could % catch subscripted references to, say,    int my_array[13];    if (my_array[n]!=42)   printf( "Wrong answer!\n")  + but how far does your technique go? ...What 4 cases can it catch? E.g., does it work with pointers- that are aliasing an array? How far "aliased" 1 can a pointer be and still be eligible for bounds 	 checking?    Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:29:07 -0400 & From: "Ed Vogel" <ed.vogel@compaq.com>9 Subject: Re: A warning to use bounds checking in BASIC(?) , Message-ID: <3da6fc55_3@hpb10302.boi.hp.com>  ? "Atlant Schmidt" <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote in message ( news:3DA6F7A1.CF55EEE0@mindspring.com... | - | but how far does your technique go? ...What 6 | cases can it catch? E.g., does it work with pointers/ | that are aliasing an array? How far "aliased" 3 | can a pointer be and still be eligible for bounds  | checking?        Greetings Atlant,   7     Exactly what /CHECK=BOUNDS is described pretty well A     in the documenation.  The link to the User's Guide should be:   5 http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/c/5492P.html        Ed   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:52:43 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>9 Subject: Re: A warning to use bounds checking in BASIC(?) . Message-ID: <3DA701DB.550A1B07@mindspring.com>   Ed Vogel wrote:    >     Greetings Atlant,  > 9 >     Exactly what /CHECK=BOUNDS is described pretty well C >     in the documenation.  The link to the User's Guide should be:  > 7 > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/commercial/c/5492P.html    Thanks!    Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:13:01 +0100 4 From: John Laird <john@laird-towers.freeserve.co.uk>U Subject: Re: Accounting shows %SYSTEM-W-CLIFRCEXT, CLI forced exit for TELNET process 8 Message-ID: <0vfdqukseu4cj9hl8v4c8ovqcoghtqag56@4ax.com>  I On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:09:37 -0700, Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com> wrote:   ' >According to "HELP/MESSAGE CLIFRCEXT":  >  > CLIFRCEXT,  CLI forced exit  > ( >  Facility:     SYSTEM, System Services > E >  Explanation:  The command interpreter forced an image to terminate G >                abnormally. The debugger displays this message when an  >imageI >                is interrupted by Ctrl/Y and another command is entered.  >  >  User Action:  None.  G As the accounting output looks more like a process record than an image K record, I'd say it's odds-on the user disconnected the Telnet link from the H client end (or had it terminated somehow) and DCL ran down the image and process.     	John    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:41:49 +0000 (UTC) * From: Osmo Kujala <kujala@tukki.cc.jyu.fi>* Subject: Adaptec 39160 (KZPEA) & OpenVMS ?, Message-ID: <ao5vbt$t93$1@mordred.cc.jyu.fi>  	 Hi group!   E Does anyone know, if it is possible to get Adaptec 39160 SCSI-card to D work with OpenVMS in EV5 Alpha? I know that KZPEA which has AIC-7899C chip like 39160 is supported on some EV6-models, but I've also seen ? reports in Web that 39160 is working and regognized as KZPEA in ) AlphaPC 164LX (EV5), with Tru64 at least.   D Adaptec 29160 (AIC-7892) works in PWS 433a(u) with VMS 7.3 and 7.3-1: and in PC164 (Thanks to Patrick Young for valuable info!).B (Have to add entry in sys$user_config.dat if device Id is foreign.E 7.3-1 has 7892 in sys$config.dat but the Device Id doesn't agree with  commodity 29160 card.)  J For 39160 there is already right entry in sys$config.dat (right Device Id)K in 7.3-1 but the card doesn't work in PWS. Both channels of the card remain G offline and both have error count 1 . With 7.3 result was same but with J error counts of 3. (No I haven't yet analyzed those errors, thanks to that stupid DECevent not installed.)   J Should I wait that rest of the bugs get patches? Could the problem be withF bios emulation? I don't see anything about the card on monitor when I F switch PWS on with SRM, but with Alphabios SCSIselect program of 39160" card is advertised and can be run.  D Main difference between 7892 and 7899 chips (actually AIC-7892B and D AIC-7899G) seems to be that 7899 is bigger and handles two channels.   Osmo   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 04:46:36 -0700 (PDT) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>@ Subject: Re: Alphaserver 4100 + 2 FC LP-8000 (freezing/reseting)@ Message-ID: <20021011114636.77909.qmail@web20209.mail.yahoo.com>   Well  5 Our HP/Compaq field technician didnt know that ! ! !   He installed the board !     Regards    FC  & --- Cable NJ <kuff@comcast.net> wrote: >  > K >    That is a known problem... there are two PCI busses on this box... you  > were on the wrong one..  >  >  > H > In article <20021010165446.99067.qmail@web20203.mail.yahoo.com>, Fabio+ > Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote:  > D > > The AS-4100 didnt hang since yesterday when we changed the slot.A > > May be it is a problem related to the second bus with a FC !   > >  > >  > > Regards  > >  > > FC  7 > > --- Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br> wrote: 
 > > > Dirk > > > G > > > Thew AS-4100 has the lastest versions of firmware and the FC too! M > > > This morning my server freezed two times. At the second time we changed ? > > > the slot of the new FC to another slot (other bus). Until L > > > now the server didt freeze. I must wait until 15:00-16:00 hrs, because( > > > it is the peak time of server use. > > > L > > > If the machine dont freeze again, may be the problem is related to the > other 0 > > > bus. I had a machine check related to IOD. > > > 
 > > > regards 	 > > > FC  ) > > > --- Dirk Munk <munk@home.nl> wrote: N > > > > Did you upgrade the firmware of the AS-4100 (and maybe of the FC cards > )?. L > > > > The 4100 has 2 or 4 pci busses ( I always  confuse the 4000 and the O > > > > 4100). Put every FC card in its own PCI bus, and all should work well I  >  > > > > guess.I > > > > Are you sure the EMC has all the necesarry patches and settings ? M > > > > And please do use multipath, you can still do a bit of I/O balancing  O > > > > with that. You will be a lot happier with automatic failover if one of  * > > > > the paths fails, I can assure you. > > > >  > > > > Regards, > > > > Dirk > > > >  > > > > Fabio Cardoso wrote: > > > >  > > > > >Dear Sirs	 > > > > > : > > > > >We installed an aditional Fibre Channel (FC) cardB > > > > >in our AS-4100, and since then, the server is hanging andG > > > > >reseting. Any considerations about two FC cards (no multipath) C > > > > >in AS-4100 ? I was thinking in the possibility of this old E > > > > >server with old bus, dont support two FC cards. We splitted  ? > > > > >the disks in the EMC for I/O balancing (no multipath). 	 > > > > > 	 > > > > > D > > > > >OpenVMS 7.2-1h1  (last patches applied UPDATE 5.0 + FC 5.0)	 > > > > > 	 > > > > >  > > > > >Regards	 > > > > >  > > > > >FC 	 > > > > >  > > > > >=====# > > > > >========================== ! > > > > >Fbio dos Santos Cardoso  > > > > >OpenVMS System Manager   > > > > >Rio de Janeiro - Brazil! > > > > >fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br # > > > > >========================== 	 > > > > > ; > > > > >__________________________________________________  > > > > >Do you Yahoo!? ; > > > > >Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More  > > > > >http://faith.yahoo.com  > > > > >   	 > > > > >  > > > >  > > >  > > >  > > > =====   > > > ========================== > > > Fbio dos Santos Cardoso > > > OpenVMS System Manager > > > Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  > > > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br  > > > ========================== > > > 8 > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!?8 > > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > > > http://faith.yahoo.com > >  > > 	 > > =====  > > ========================== > > Fbio dos Santos Cardoso > > OpenVMS System Manager > > Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  > > fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br > > ========================== > > 6 > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!?6 > > Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More > > http://faith.yahoo.com     =====  ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil  fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?2 Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:20:30 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>. Subject: Re: boot cdrom, backup image, reboot?I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0210111213330.9918-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>   ( On Mon, 7 Oct 2002, Tim Llewellyn wrote:   >+Christoph Gartmann wrote:  >+>  >+> You could try:; >+> $ @sys$system:shutdown 0 SHUTDOWN NO YES LATER YES NONE  >+  = >+Will work as long as the machine is configured to autoboot  * >+correctly into the normal configuration.  5 ..and as long you will not run the SHUTDOWN procedure 2  from subprocess :) (and not only subprocess). The:  process in "DCL CD ROM boot mode" is AFAIR a subprocess !  5  Using command procedure (named b.ex. REBOOT.COM) and " detached process will work, agree:E $ run/deta/inp=DVA0:[000000]REBOOT.COM/outp=OPA0: sys$system:loginout * (and REBOOT.COM has your command line in).H  Even "second paralell" process (RUN/DET/INP=OPA0:/OUT=OPA0: *:loginout)A will work :), but the "already available one" - not neccessary :)     Regards - Gotfryd   --  E ===================================================================== F $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME . $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================    ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:53:36 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>7 Subject: RE: C - overlaying variables in the same PSECT I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0210111150340.9918-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>   + On Tue, 8 Oct 2002, Farrell, Michael wrote:   K >+I personally don't like to use unions.  I find them to be awkward to use.  >+J >+Instead, I declare a pointer of each type I want to map and point all of. >+those pointers to the same starting address.  /  In fact - the "starting address" *is* a union. =  Really - C alows use of memory without (proper) declaration, < but "union is a place where you save variables of differrentB type" - regardles if someone know that name "union" even exists :)    Regards - Gotfryd   --  E ===================================================================== F $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME . $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================    ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:58:41 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>7 Subject: Re: C - overlaying variables in the same PSECT I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0210111153590.9918-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>   ! On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, jlsue wrote:   G >+On 8 Oct 2002 07:27:19 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler)  >+wrote: [...] & >+>   What's wrong with using a union? >+
 >+Higher cost     What a cost you think for ?;  Have hope - not in execution phase. Someone may search for - "objects" when slowing execution is wanted ;>   ; >+ and you have to wait around just to get something simple ' >+done... oh..... wait...... nevermind.     Wait ? For what ?B  Or you will say that the compilation time slowers unacceptable ??  -;)    Regards - Gotfryd   --  E ===================================================================== F $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=ME . $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 06:14:16 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>7 Subject: Re: C - overlaying variables in the same PSECT 6 Message-ID: <WaydnS-VQPn6OTugXTWcrg@News.GigaNews.Com>  E "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl> wrote in message C news:Pine.LNX.4.21.0210111153590.9918-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl... # > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, jlsue wrote:  > I > >+On 8 Oct 2002 07:27:19 -0600, koehler@encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) 
 > >+wrote: > [...] ( > >+>   What's wrong with using a union? > >+ > >+Higher cost  >  >  What a cost you think for ?= >  Have hope - not in execution phase. Someone may search for / > "objects" when slowing execution is wanted ;>  > = > >+ and you have to wait around just to get something simple ) > >+done... oh..... wait...... nevermind.  >  >  Wait ? For what ?D >  Or you will say that the compilation time slowers unacceptable ?? >  -;)  J I started to respond to the 'higher cost' comment as well, but by the timeJ I'd reached the end realized that the post was an at least modestly cleverL and funny joke based on interpreting 'unions' as 'labor unions'.  Don't feelE sheepish about missing it:  it's definitely subtle for those for whom ! English is not a native language.    - bill   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 09:53:54 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> H Subject: Re: CERT Advisory CA-2002-28 Trojan Horse Sendmail Distribution6 Message-ID: <20021011095354.15610.qmail@gacracker.org>  9 On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:    <snip>  K >There are pro's and con's in the whole debate over open vs. closed source. K >In the end it comes down to the quality of the people, the testing regime, K >and the willingness not to release something that you believe isn't ready, , >as opposed to 'feature-rich and bug-laden'.  J Would you actually categorise VMS as closed source? Seems plenty of people' round here have source code for the OS.   9 "Open Source" means different things to different people.      Doc. --  6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:03:00 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> H Subject: Re: CERT Advisory CA-2002-28 Trojan Horse Sendmail DistributionJ Message-ID: <8_zp9.183147$q41.120903@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  J "Doc.Cypher" <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message0 news:20021011095354.15610.qmail@gacracker.org...; > On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com> wrote:  >  > <snip> > E > >There are pro's and con's in the whole debate over open vs. closed  source. E > >In the end it comes down to the quality of the people, the testing  regime, F > >and the willingness not to release something that you believe isn't ready,. > >as opposed to 'feature-rich and bug-laden'. > L > Would you actually categorise VMS as closed source? Seems plenty of people) > round here have source code for the OS.  > ; > "Open Source" means different things to different people.   I VMS is closed in the sense that we, the great unwashed, don't wade in and K change the core VMS routines, as opposed to anyone being able/encouraged to J hack (in a non-threatinging way) at the source in 'open source'. There are pro's and con's to this:  I - VMS is thoughtfully engineered for the most part, though I am sure that C there is still some Bliss code that perhaps ought to be cleaned-up.   K - the pace of new features being added to VMS is somewhat slower than those K added to unix, but then again unix features are seldom as bug-free as often 1 as VMS features are when they are first released.   K - VMS source is available for inspection, and that's good enough for me. It D affords the opportunity to understand what really happens behind theI curtain, and to inspect for potential vulnerabilities. To me, that's what ? open source is mostly about when it comes to operating systems.   J - I don't make my living from hacking o/s software, I make it from sellingA apps and consulting, so to that extent I am very happy to let VMS ! Engineering do the heavy lifting.   I - Open source for applications is not a bad idea. If I want to go and see F how something is done, the code is there. I may want to 'hack' it into  something more to my liking too.  H But generally, I prefer to spend my time dealing with my own applicationI issues, business processes and rules, legal and regulatory issues, and in F most instances open source isn't going to help me much in that regard.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:53:21 -0000 ! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net> H Subject: Re: CERT Advisory CA-2002-28 Trojan Horse Sendmail Distribution/ Message-ID: <uqdpf1jgm3isdc@corp.supernews.com>   " John Smith <a@nonymous.com> wrote:K : VMS is closed in the sense that we, the great unwashed, don't wade in and M : change the core VMS routines, as opposed to anyone being able/encouraged to L : hack (in a non-threatinging way) at the source in 'open source'. There are : pro's and con's to this:  D You seem to be implying that open source carries with it the ability6 for anyone to change a particular public distribution.   That's not true.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 01:49:33 -0400 * From: "Bill Todd" <billtodd@metrocast.net>' Subject: Re: ev6 still beats Itanium II 6 Message-ID: <CUudnXaLX_bB-zugXTWcqg@News.GigaNews.Com>  L "peter.watkinson1@ ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson)" <nospam> wrote in message, news:3da5fb36.27996765@news.cable.ntl.com... >  >  > Ev6 ES45 1250mhz EV6 > L http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/results/res2002q3/cpu2000-20020909-01610.htm l  > - > hp workstation zx6000 (1000 MHz, Itanium 2)  > L http://www.spec.org/osg/cpu2000/results/res2002q3/cpu2000-20020812-01541.htm l  >  > well on peak anyway..   L That's OK:  for most commercially-significant use SPECint is more applicableJ than SPECfp, and EV6 beats Itanic2 on both base and peak there (no need toG wait for EV7, though that should significantly widen the gap; RIP EV8).   K The only clear statement one can make about Itanic2 is that it's not nearly H the utter disaster that Itanic1 was.  Other than that, it's difficult toL compare apples to apples.  One of the major reasons for this is because SPECL allows use of feedback-directed optimization (profiling) for base as well asH peak tests and different platforms can take advantage of this to varyingH degrees (e.g., architectures that don't require profiling to obtain good9 performance may not even have compilers that support it).   H The Tru64 C/C++ compiler apparently supports three combinable flavors ofF profiling optimizations.  For the 1.25 GHz EV6 tests, one was used forI SPECint2K_base tests, none were used for SPECfp2K_base tests, and varying K combinations were used for the peak tests (both flavors).  By contrast, all F the Itanic2 tests used profiling, though they don't break it down intoI categories as the Alpha tests do - so, for example, the Alpha SPECfp_base H value can't be compared directly with the Itanic2 SPECfp_base value as aE measurement of pure hardware performance because of the difference in I profiling activity (the Alpha SPECfp_base value might have been somewhere J between 10% and 20% higher than it was had profiling been used, but that's only a guess based on hearsay).   H Of course, those are only the best results for Itanic2.  For example, asL contrasted with the excellent (profile-directed) SPECint2K_base value of 810F obtained using HP-UX and its compiler, base values of 680 and 619 wereK obtained using (respectively) Windows Advanced Server LE with the Microsoft H compiler with Linux and the Intel compiler - but while the July HP whiteL paper in which this information appears stated that those results would alsoK shortly be available for inspection on the spec.org web site (e.g., so that K we could see the degree to which profiling did or did not play a part) they & don't seem to have appeared there yet.  K My impression is that the subject of whether profiling should be allowed at K all for base (as opposed to peak) testing was a hot one, and it's not clear E why SPEC decided that it should - because it's not clear that typical I applications will employ it in their distributions (or keep it up to date J for subsequent processor variations even if they do use it for their firstJ set of binaries).  My impression also is that Itanic requires profiling toC obtain good performance considerably more than other processors do.   H The rosiest interpretation of Itanic2's SPECint and SPECfp benchmarks isI that it's about as fast as the fastest current 64-bit competition (Alpha) I and somewhat faster than everything else (though of course not as fast in B SPECint as the fastest 32-bit Pentiums and Athlons are).  The mostJ pessimistic interpretation is that its core architecture is a real pig (asJ evidenced by its appetite for both power and chip area) that has been onlyJ marginally saved by implementation techniques (and compiler profiling thatK other architecures haven't until now bothered with much) that could equally L well have been applied to a RISC approach like Alpha or PA-RISC to produce aK superior product, and that HP has released a very carefully-selected set of ? benchmarks that capitalize on the strengths of this surrounding G implementation (e.g., the large, fast on-chip cache and high-bandwidth, H low-latency zx1 chipset - which is limited to 4-processor boxes) to makeF Itanic2 look a lot better than its architecture really warrants (whichJ basically means that they've shot most of their implementation wad for theJ next 4 years or so until a new core can be developed, while Alpha is aboutL to make a major leap forward by obtaining a large, fast on-chip cache of itsL own plus memory and MP on-chip support that Itanic won't get until 2005 - byG which time EV8 would have made Alpha's next major leap).  And while the K truth (as usual) likely lies somewhere between these two extremes, the fact K remains that the competion will continue (or, in the case of those superior J RISC entries already sacrificed on the Itanic altar, would have continued)K to advance in 2003 and 2004 in areas like on-chip glue, multiple cores, and H SMT, while Itanic really does appear to be stuck with the basic McKinleyK design until 2005 (when similar on-chip glue may appear) and with the basic J McKinley core for even longer (based on evidence that includes Intel's ownK statements about its plans, and while it could have something hidden up its D sleeve one might have expected it to have been produced by now given$ Itanic2's decidedly cool reception).  G Which may be more than you wanted to know, but it seemed a good time to I collect a bunch of separate thoughts that all seem relevant to this area.    - bill   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:11:07 -0400 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>  Subject: Re: File convert ? $ Message-ID: <3da6ce23$1@news.si.com>  K >i was using /RESET=NONE on the /SEPARATE parameter - this sent the job off  >looking for a module . >named 'NONE'. problem was solved by /RESET=N.  ? The problem should have been resolved by /SEPARATE=NORESET, not J /SEPARATE=RESET=N.  In the latter case, the print symbiont will still look0 for a module named "N".  This is all documented. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:14:49 -0400 ; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>  Subject: Re: File convert ? $ Message-ID: <3da6cf01$1@news.si.com>  K >And you'll have to find a way to make that EPS get sent for every page (or K >send each page as a separate job). /SETUP only sends the setup module once  per job.  D This is the function of the /PAGE_SETUP qualifier of the DEFINE/FORMK command.  Define a form specifying the EPS module as the page setup module.  --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com = 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:47:09 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>  Subject: Re: File convert ? + Message-ID: <3DA7008C.B24F634@videotron.ca>    Brian Tillman wrote:F > This is the function of the /PAGE_SETUP qualifier of the DEFINE/FORMM > command.  Define a form specifying the EPS module as the page setup module.   N Nop. Can't do that with postscript because the symbiont has absolutely no idea8 of where page breaks actually occur in a postscript job.   hint:    /chocolate { showpage } def   7 100 100 moveto (Chocolate Mousse Recipe) show chocolate 7 100 100 moveto (Chocolate Mousse Recipe) show chocolate 7 100 100 moveto (Chocolate Mousse Recipe) show chocolate 7 100 100 moveto (Chocolate Mousse Recipe) show chocolate   L The above generates 4 pages. (ok, it is missing the font selection command).N But the print symbiont on VMS has no idea.  It cannot insert code inside of my( code because it may mess up my own code.  J Also, An EPS by itself cannot just be inserted in a file. It needs to haveM code above it to set a current position and usually scaling factor, and a bit - of code at the end to reset the environment.  D (granted, this can be added to the module stored in the library, butK technically it is no longer EPS, it becomes postscript code that happens to  contain an EPS.)   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 12:58:46 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: Re: File convert ? 3 Message-ID: <JbbPpsBTW+Vc@eisner.encompasserve.org>   [ In article <3DA7008C.B24F634@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:  > Brian Tillman wrote:G >> This is the function of the /PAGE_SETUP qualifier of the DEFINE/FORM N >> command.  Define a form specifying the EPS module as the page setup module. > P > Nop. Can't do that with postscript because the symbiont has absolutely no idea: > of where page breaks actually occur in a postscript job.  J If you're using the ANSI translator embedded into the CPS style symbionts,E this should work just fine.  The symbiont knows where the page breaks E occdur in the ANSI data.  And you can specify Postscript format setup ( modules within an ANSI format print job.  D If you're using regular PostScript, you can play games by redefining+ the showpage command in a file setup moduleI   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:30:41 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>. Subject: Re: Grant an identifier to an image ?I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0210111121580.9918-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>r  # On Wed, 9 Oct 2002, JF Mezei wrote:i [...]e3 >+Is there a reason why /SUBSYSTEM is not default ?i    Yes.l  ' >+ Does it degrade system performance ?r  0  Probably no, at least no in measurable percent.  3  Suspecting the third question ;) - it is security.a  7  Volume owner can do *anything* on the volume, can also8 modify file headers :)5  Then can set *any* ACL to *any* image on the volume, 3 and the *only* protection (to prevent the images beI/ 'privileged' by subsystem on *whole* system) ise0 privilege requirements when the "subsystem" flag is set.a3  You can mount private volume without any privilegee5 - but you can't mount it /SUBSYSTEM :) (I am not sure 5 where privilege - CMKRNL or something - is required).C  5  The same applies IMHO to cluster - using identifiersn4 you can exclude access for some nodes, then the same5 may be expected to be available for subsystem (I willi2 say: you must be allowed to allow the images to be  'useable' on *some* nodes only).    Regards - Gotfryd   -- bE =====================================================================:F $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEn. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================u   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:27:00 -0400u- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>y. Subject: Re: Grant an identifier to an image ?, Message-ID: <3DA6FBD4.D15DF83A@videotron.ca>  " "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" wrote:9 >  Volume owner can do *anything* on the volume, can alsom > modify file headers :)  L HELP MOUNT /SUBSYSTEM Example provides an example of a privatly mounted disk with /SUBSYSTEM enabled.  K What prevents any user from mounting a drive /SUBSYSTEM, then set an ACL to M their own image on the drive which will give it access to some important data1 file on another drive ?o  H This however doesn't explain why a MOUNT/SYSTEM wouldn't have /SUBSYSTEMI enabled by default.  Doesn't one need some fairly allmighty privileges toV mount a drive /SYSTEM ?a   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 11:52:48 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org. Subject: Re: Grant an identifier to an image ?3 Message-ID: <Ycv+iLSBtXU8@eisner.encompasserve.org>e  \ In article <3DA6FBD4.D15DF83A@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:$ > "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" wrote:: >>  Volume owner can do *anything* on the volume, can also >> modify file headers :)4 > N > HELP MOUNT /SUBSYSTEM Example provides an example of a privatly mounted disk > with /SUBSYSTEM enabled. > M > What prevents any user from mounting a drive /SUBSYSTEM, then set an ACL towO > their own image on the drive which will give it access to some important datay > file on another drive ?D  A Any old user can't mount a drive /SUBSYSTEM.  It takes privilege.   J > This however doesn't explain why a MOUNT/SYSTEM wouldn't have /SUBSYSTEMK > enabled by default.  Doesn't one need some fairly allmighty privileges to  > mount a drive /SYSTEM ?0  F When the system manager mounts a drive /SYSTEM, what kind of guaranteeE does he have that the drive contains no /SUBSYSTEM ACE's placed thered without his or her knowledge?r  D Ordinarily, if someone messages around with file headers on a volume? and convinces the system manager to mount it /SYSTEM the impact D is that users can get to files _on that volume_ that they shouldn't.> But nothing on that volume grants any further privilege to the< users accessing it.  It takes an additional explicit step to= install privileged images on the volume.  It takes additionaln; explicit steps to point trusted logical names (like SYSUAF)t; at that volume or to use Trojan horse applications deployedt on it.  > But if you mount an untrustworthy volume with /SUBSYSTEM, this9 is no longer the case.  An attacker can use the volume ash: a mechanism to obtain a rights identifier that they should< not hold.  They can exploit a misconfiguration on one volume to access data on another.  6 Making this the default would be double plus not good.   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:25:46 GMTy= From: peter.watkinson1@<nospam>ntlworld.com (Peter Watkinson) " Subject: Re: graphics card problem1 Message-ID: <3da6a721.2079546@news.cable.ntl.com>e  1 On Wed, 9 Oct 2002 20:00:39 -0400, "David Turner"  <dbturner@islandco.com> wrote:  # >go to www.islandco.com/support.htm  >' >      Hi,d  E I've got a S3 VGA card plus Hobbyist Open VMS 7.2 and I'm also getingaF a no video device error. Is there an S3 kit on the CD that needs to be installed also?    cheers,:     Peter Watkinsonn% peter.watkinson1<nospam>@ntlworld.com3 remove <nospam> to reply :-)   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:26:25 -0500i5 From: Michael Rice <MichaelARice@no-spam.knology.net> " Subject: Re: graphics card problem/ Message-ID: <uqdgt1g8ohktab@corp.supernews.com>f   Reinhard Eigner wrote: > Hi NG! > M > I've got a Digital PWS 600a (MX5), with a Elsa Gloria Synergy graphics carse > and a SCSI-CD-ROM.E > Today I installed OpenVMS 7.2, but I don't get a graphical desktop.  > I get some messages: > 4 > %DECW$DEVICE-I-NODEVICE, no graphics devices found >  > After login: > & > %SET-W-NOTSET, error modifying OPA0:' > -SET-I-UNKTERM, unknown terminal typet >  > M > On the SRM Console the language is set to German and the keyboard is set toa > PCXAL. >  > What could be the problem?M > At work we have ES40 and AS4100 machine, also equipped with the Elsa Gloriac
 > graphicsD > card and they are running with a graphic desktop under OpenVMS 7.2 >  > Thanks in advance!
 > Reinhard >  >   E I also have an Elsa Gloria Synergy 8MB in my XP1000 and had the same mC problem.  I had to install a couple upgrades (VMS72_PCSI-V0100 and .I VMS72_GRAPHICS-V0100) and I *think* I also had to configure some startup c files for X.   Michaelw   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:27:53 -0400n2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>" Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit Contents. Message-ID: <3DA6C3C9.79C664FA@mindspring.com>   Arne Vajhj wrote:  2 > Has anyone tried putting a DVD drive in an Alpha > and tried it ?  2 I didn, when I wrote the DWDRIVER's ATAPI support.1 It worked fine, down at the "read a block" level.2   Caveats:  (   o As far as I know, there's *STILL* no*      support for UDF, the standard on-disc      format for DVD discs.*   ,   o There's no support in the driver to read,      encrypted DVD video files. (You need to+      exchange some decryption-key data withc6      the drive.) I think you do get back a moderately-0      sensible error status if you try to read an      encrypted sector, though.  1 But we certainly believed that an ODS-2-formatted- DVD disc would work just fine.   Atlant  , *Yell at management and the product managers1  (who seem very short-sighted in the area of what .   "foreign" file systems they should support.)   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 14:57:01 +0100C From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann)o" Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit Contents- Message-ID: <3da6ca9d.0@news.uni-konstanz.de>   H In article <3DA5AECB.2000508@vajhoej.dk>, Arne =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Vajh=F8j?= <arne@vajhoej.dk> writes:i |>Stuart Johnson wrote:  |>K |>> I wasn't expecting to see the contents of 10 or so CD's put onto one CD  |>- I |>> however I hadn't considered DVD at all. I wasn't aware of support for  |>DVD inF |>> OpenVMS, VAX or Alpha computers. Is this a supported media in this |>> environment? |> |>Good question. |>6 |>I do not remember having seen DVD support announced.  & I've found an official statement here:K http://www.compaq.com/products/servers/proliantstorage/drives-enclosures/12  2x-dvd/,   |>; |>But usually a SCSI or IDE device is a SCSI or IDE device,.9 |>so I would assume a DVD with an ODS-2 file-system woulds |>be read by VMS.$ |>8 |>And when IA-64 systsem with VMS start shipping, then I4 |>would assume all systems to ship with a DVD drive. |>2 |>Has anyone tried putting a DVD drive in an Alpha |>and tried it ? |>  H You can read and write DVDs, but it seems to be impossible to boot a DVD (firmware?).K A OpenVMS/Alpha V7.3 CDROM boots nicely with a Pioneer DVR-A03 in a XP1000.      |>Arne |> |>   eberhard   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:07:35 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>" Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit Contents. Message-ID: <3DA6CD17.C3A89A22@mindspring.com>   Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote:  J > You can read and write DVDs, but it seems to be impossible to boot a DVD > (firmware?).M > A OpenVMS/Alpha V7.3 CDROM boots nicely with a Pioneer DVR-A03 in a XP1000.f  2 It's possible that there are firmware problems but- the DQDRIVER needed no special code to handlen- DVDs; they "just worked" (because the commandt/ set and status returns was a proper superset ofh the CD-ROM command set).  4 There may well be an 8GB limitation in the firmware,9 but that wouldn't affect SL-SS (Single-Layer Single-Side,S that is, 4.7GB) DVD operation.  0 The more important question would be file-system/ support. has somebody actually created an ODS-27& VMS DVD-ROM? (There's certainly no UDF! support in the firmware, either.)g  ( What DVD did you try (and fail) to boot?   Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 16:53:08 +0100C From: vaxinf@chclu.chemie.uni-konstanz.de (Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann)4" Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit Contents- Message-ID: <3da6e5d4.0@news.uni-konstanz.de>2  = In article <3DA6CD17.C3A89A22@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidtd% <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:b  |>Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann wrote: |>H |>> You can read and write DVDs, but it seems to be impossible to boot a |>DVD  |>> (firmware?).G |>> A OpenVMS/Alpha V7.3 CDROM boots nicely with a Pioneer DVR-A03 in a0	 |>XP1000.6 |>4 |>It's possible that there are firmware problems but/ |>the DQDRIVER needed no special code to handle4/ |>DVDs; they "just worked" (because the commande1 |>set and status returns was a proper superset ofe |>the CD-ROM command set). |>6 |>There may well be an 8GB limitation in the firmware,; |>but that wouldn't affect SL-SS (Single-Layer Single-Side,   |>that is, 4.7GB) DVD operation. |>2 |>The more important question would be file-system1 |>support. has somebody actually created an ODS-2n( |>VMS DVD-ROM? (There's certainly no UDF# |>support in the firmware, either.)o  . I can burn a ODS-2 filesystem on DVD-R/DVD-RW.< If the total size is about 4 GB a XP1000  is unable to boot.3 The machine boots with the same file content if youe/ have a DVD written with a total size of 650 MB.u   |>* |>What DVD did you try (and fail) to boot?  4 It fails immediately when trying to access the disk.   |> |>Atlant |> |> |>   eberhard   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:03:10 -0700 % From: Dean Woodward <deanw@rdrop.com>c; Subject: Re: Hobbyist kit Contents - some rambling thoughts ( Message-ID: <3DA6E82E.7050804@rdrop.com>   David Froble wrote:   J > I'd also suggest that paying customers with a software support contract H > wouldn't object to a one time purchase of a device that supports VPN, G > and that they could be assigned unique VPN login accounts by HP, and iH > then they would download the software products that they use/want via  > secured VPN.  E Heh.  I was being melodramatic, over the top, and obviously thinking i0 *way& too hard:  See the CERT / Sendmail thread:  >  > CERT Advisory CA-2002-28 Trojan Horse Sendmail Distribution1  > http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2002-28.htmlc  B Someone broke into their FTP server and replaced the distribution E (source code, not that that matters) with a compromised version.  No oF VPN in the world is going to help that.  (Checking the MD5 sums might - have- *if* those weren't compromised as well.   E > I don't know enough about the VPN capabilities to know if a public EK > access VPN, ie; known login data, would compromise security of the link,  B > but for hobbyist users I don't think that the security issue is F > paramount.  Remember, it cannot be used for commercial purposes, so  > what's the real exposure?r  - Nah, I'm not worried about my hobbyist boxen.   F If they [HP]wanted to get creative enough, a secure [enough, for most G people's reasonable values of "secure"] means of distribution could be l worked out.    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:46:39 -0400 % From: "John Vottero" <John@mvpsi.com> % Subject: Re: HP to push .NET big time=/ Message-ID: <uqe03gjfufd043@news.supernews.com>n  : "Warren Spencer" <wspencer@ap.nospam.org> wrote in message/ news:92A0AEC6Ewarrenspencer1977@216.168.3.30...=( > John@mvpsi.com (John Vottero) wrote in& > <up3q9mp38gchec@news.supernews.com>: >Y= > >"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> wrote in messagee) > >news:3D914D5E.A2312D3F@videotron.ca...  > >> "Terry C. Shannon" wrote:H > >> > Color me stupid, but might this be a way for Microsoft to achieve? > >> > its ambition of RENTING software rather than selling it?= > >>F > >> But isn't that the main goal of .NET to begin with ? I had always
 > >understoodu' > >> that this was the purpose of .NET.o > >eJ > >That is a common misconception.  .NET is a new development environment.= > >New from the ground up.  I wish VMS had something similar.  > >n >oG > New to Microsoft, perhaps.  Many few it as a less mature knock-off of_ Java,_  > and I suspect I'm one of them. >   F Yes, .NET clearly shows that Microsoft thinks Java is a cool idea.  OfH course, neither Java nor .NET have anything to do with renting software.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:11:41 +0000l2 From: John Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>= Subject: Judge: Itanium Violates Patents, Injunction Possible.3 Message-ID: <20021011141141.D6608@eisenschmidt.org>   A "A U.S. district court ruled that Intel Corp.'s Itanium processor D infringes the intellectual property of Intergraph Corp., and ordered% Intel to pay $150 million in damages.r  C Moreover, the judge ruled that Intergraph can ask for an injunctionsF blocking sales of the Itanium or Itanium 2 processors. The court ruledF that Intel "directly infringes" patents held on Intergraph's "parallelF instruction computing" (PIC) technology used in Intel's Itanium family of 64-bit processors. "o  8 http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,626236,00.asp   -- y/ John W. Eisenschmidt <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org>lC    Public Key   |  http://www.eisenschmidt.org/jweisen/misc/pgp.asc:D    Fingerprint  |  5F9B F916 5AD1 3295 CF99 BC1E 1F97 E6A3 37E3 BEF2J Is this mail an attachment? http://www.jensbenecke.de/misc/outlook.en.html  K "Old Mother Reagan went to heaven but at the pearly gates she was stopped!"S   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:58:13 GMT # From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>=A Subject: Re: Judge: Itanium Violates Patents, Injunction Possible-J Message-ID: <9GBp9.183261$q41.152779@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  ? "John Eisenschmidt" <jweisen@eisenschmidt.org> wrote in messagec- news:20021011141141.D6608@eisenschmidt.org...CC > "A U.S. district court ruled that Intel Corp.'s Itanium processor.F > infringes the intellectual property of Intergraph Corp., and ordered' > Intel to pay $150 million in damages.  >bE > Moreover, the judge ruled that Intergraph can ask for an injunctionaH > blocking sales of the Itanium or Itanium 2 processors. The court ruledH > that Intel "directly infringes" patents held on Intergraph's "parallelH > instruction computing" (PIC) technology used in Intel's Itanium family > of 64-bit processors. "e > : > http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,626236,00.asp    G So Intel gets caught with its hand in the cookie jar yet again. Digital=% caved. Glad to see Intergraph hasn't.E  H Interesting possibilities can come of this - by extension, HP may have aI fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to continue developing Alpha EV8=L and PA-RISC for the long-term future health of the company. Seems to me thatE bringing the EV8 boys back into the fold would be a wise thing to do.t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:00:34 -0400n2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>A Subject: Re: Judge: Itanium Violates Patents, Injunction Possible0. Message-ID: <3DA6F5A2.4BA41F08@mindspring.com>   John Smith wrote:n  J > Interesting possibilities can come of this - by extension, HP may have aK > fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to continue developing Alpha EV8nN > and PA-RISC for the long-term future health of the company. Seems to me thatG > bringing the EV8 boys back into the fold would be a wise thing to do.m  0 But "the EV-8 boys" all work for Intel, AMD, and4 Sun (plus a few others) these days. Surely you don't3 think hot-shot silicon wranglers let the grass growt3 underneath their feet when their patron punts their= architecture, do you?=  * (Where do you think Sun got the ~5,000 who) staff(ed)-up their Burlington, MA campus?C. Heck, in case folks didn't get the point, they even installed a clocktower!)=   Atlant   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:25:55 -0700 (PDT) . From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>A Subject: Re: Judge: Itanium Violates Patents, Injunction Possiblei@ Message-ID: <20021011162555.86472.qmail@web20205.mail.yahoo.com>   There are two possibilities:  - a) HP stops with Alpha and Itanium survives !e- b) HP stops with Itanium and Alpha survives !0  2 What worries me more is the non possibility to run5 OpenVMS in non HP machines ! Like Dell, IBM, Unisys !h  : If Allen Braley launches a new industrial computer powered8 by Itanium and I will not run any OpenvMS SCADA software in these machines !    Regt   FC r7 --- Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:a > John Smith wrote:  > L > > Interesting possibilities can come of this - by extension, HP may have aM > > fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to continue developing Alpha EV8 K > > and PA-RISC for the long-term future health of the company. Seems to mel > thatI > > bringing the EV8 boys back into the fold would be a wise thing to do.h > 2 > But "the EV-8 boys" all work for Intel, AMD, and6 > Sun (plus a few others) these days. Surely you don't5 > think hot-shot silicon wranglers let the grass growi5 > underneath their feet when their patron punts theirf > architecture, do you?a > , > (Where do you think Sun got the ~5,000 who+ > staff(ed)-up their Burlington, MA campus?00 > Heck, in case folks didn't get the point, they > even installed a clocktower!)R >  > Atlant >  >      =====e ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil" fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?2 Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com   ------------------------------   Date: 9 Oct 2002 01:11:06 -0400i3 From: Da Beave <beave@nosppamerr.bundy.vistech.net>d0 Subject: Re: Ncurses porting and cbreak(ed) read4 Message-ID: <slrnaq7i7f.91m.beave@bundy.vistech.net>  J In article <3da3045d$0$21311$626a54ce@news.free.fr>, Bernard Giroud wrote:= > In trying to port ncurses on to VMS, we just hit a problem:w > ? > Is it possible to just set the terminal with a combination oftA > modes and characteristics so that the posix read in lib_getch.c,: > will return immediately for 1 key instead of waiting for > a terminator?: >  > Thanks in advance  >  > -- > Bernard GiroudA > Crdit Lyonnais (Switzerland) SA (company code: creditlyonnais)b+ > email: firstname.lastname@company_code.chp  > 	If you do getting a port up and working,   I'd be interested.  (And host it on our FTP site)...  ) 				- Beave@dontspamme.manson.vistech.net. 	> 				http://deathrow.vistech.nete" 				Public access OpenVMS boxes...   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:27:12 -0400q; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>i, Subject: Re: OpenVMS 25th anniversary survey$ Message-ID: <3da6d1e8$1@news.si.com>   >I will get around to.G >handling the rest but I still have 5000 pages to convert to the new hpo brandeG >and then I have to re-brand the site again to the new-new-new hp brandiL >(notice the extra new's). there will probably be a new-new-new-new hp brand >by the time I get started.i  ' Interesting form of job security <grin>p --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comaA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comi= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventh< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:19:39 +0100i( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>E Subject: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackersr) Message-ID: <3DA6A5BB.2388E6A8@127.0.0.1>g  ) I'm grateful to Dave Foddy for this link.t  8 Check out slide 18, it should be attached to billboards.  ? http://www.openvms.compaq.com/availability/HP_OPENVMS-HA-DT.htmn  4 (Download the PPT and view the notes pages for more)   --  ? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesm nclews at csc dot comu   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 11:38:50 -0000= From: Doc.Cypher <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>aI Subject: Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackers 6 Message-ID: <20021011113850.18757.qmail@gacracker.org>  > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:* >I'm grateful to Dave Foddy for this link. >d9 >Check out slide 18, it should be attached to billboards.s >e@ >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/availability/HP_OPENVMS-HA-DT.htm  # Yes, that would make a nice advert.c  B Shame people would be laughing at the spelling mistake at the top.      "breeches"?     Doc. -- n6 The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.K ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                             https://vmsbox.cjb.net    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:51:22 +0100c- From: "Steve Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com>lI Subject: RE: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackers E Message-ID: <91947A84607D9D48B8E674A5FAB54DA63CB054@tahiti.tinuk.com>n  C Perhaps it's a pun - you don't want to get caught with your 'pants'p
 down, do you?c   ;^Db   Cheers   Steve St   > -----Original Message-----I > From: Doc.Cypher [mailto:Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]]=20d > Sent: 11 October 2002 12:39e > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come% > Cc: mail2news@freedom.gmsociety.orgGA > Subject: Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches=20< > from hackers >=20 >=20@ > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:, > >I'm grateful to Dave Foddy for this link. > >t; > >Check out slide 18, it should be attached to billboards.i > >6B > >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/availability/HP_OPENVMS-HA-DT.htm >=20% > Yes, that would make a nice advert.  >=20D > Shame people would be laughing at the spelling mistake at the top. >=20 >    "breeches"? >=20 >=20 > Doc. > --=2068 > The bigger the humbug, the better people will like it.9 > ~ Phineas Taylor Barnum.                            =20  > https://vmsbox.cjb.net >=20 >=20 >=20   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:41:45 +0100n( From: Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1>I Subject: Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackers ) Message-ID: <3DA6AAE9.9880F923@127.0.0.1>i   "Doc.Cypher" wrote:b > @ > On Fri, 11 Oct 2002, Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:, > >I'm grateful to Dave Foddy for this link. > >a; > >Check out slide 18, it should be attached to billboards.  > >hB > >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/availability/HP_OPENVMS-HA-DT.htm > % > Yes, that would make a nice advert.r > D > Shame people would be laughing at the spelling mistake at the top. >  >    "breeches"?  3 It's for a belt and braces approach to security ;-)n   -- w? Regards, Nic Clews a.k.a. Mr. CP Charges, CSC Computer Sciencesh nclews at csc dot como   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:15:35 +0100 (MET)s9 From: Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>aI Subject: Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackersa; Message-ID: <01KNJG626H1E9OF8NK@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com>c  5 > It's for a belt and braces approach to security ;-)h                       ^^^^^^ For U.S. readers, "suspenders".    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:10:47 -0000o! From: Z  <zarlenga@conan.ids.net>FI Subject: Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackersb/ Message-ID: <uqdcdnk12qrnbe@corp.supernews.com>m  ) Nic Clews <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote:nA : http://www.openvms.compaq.com/availability/HP_OPENVMS-HA-DT.htmf   OpenVMS has security pants?   L The word is breAches.  Sheesh!  Even PR people with worldwide exposure can't freakin spell these days.u   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:07:04 GMTi# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>dI Subject: Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackersaJ Message-ID: <I9zp9.182934$q41.182174@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in messagee# news:3DA6A5BB.2388E6A8@127.0.0.1...o+ > I'm grateful to Dave Foddy for this link.e >s: > Check out slide 18, it should be attached to billboards. >tA > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/availability/HP_OPENVMS-HA-DT.htmr      A I agree whole-heartedly. In fact, that slide could be used as the I cover/front page of a brochure that is mailed to every CIO/CTO/CFO/COO onc the planet.y  G It should be used as the basis for stand-alone ads in Information Week, D Computerworld, and other similar publications,  including those moreF directed at programmers (Software Development, etc....) to tweak theirE interest to ask management to 'get one of those VMS systems in here'.i  H ISV's should be approached with this ad and other material and the pitch> that 'VMS makes your product appear more stable to customers'.  J Every corporate presentation HP makes, every public presentation HP makes,B should start and end with this slide. If this isn't a valued-added? proposition, along with DT clusters, then I don't know what is.h    4 Thanks for pointing this out. It's great ammunition.   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:51:17 GMT-# From: "John Smith" <a@nonymous.com>iI Subject: Re: OpenVMS immunity to virus and security breeches from hackersgJ Message-ID: <FzBp9.183260$q41.148735@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>  5 "Nic Clews" <sendspamhere@127.0.0.1> wrote in messagel# news:3DA6A5BB.2388E6A8@127.0.0.1...y+ > I'm grateful to Dave Foddy for this link.e >o: > Check out slide 18, it should be attached to billboards. >uA > http://www.openvms.compaq.com/availability/HP_OPENVMS-HA-DT.htma > 6 > (Download the PPT and view the notes pages for more)     Don't they ever get it?o  F From the note on the first slide, "The primary audience is the OpenVMSE installed-base customer but it may also be applicable to new businessl situations".  J May be applicable??!!?!!?? Of course it's freakin' applicable. The biggestF advantages over almost anything else on the market and they don't want+ potential *new* customers to know about it.e  E Put Scott McNeally in front of an audience extolling capabilities andsH reliability like this and Sun's stock would be $45 again. It would be inC HP's best interest to pay Scott $100MM+ per year as chairman of HP.w   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:42:38 -0400d; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>dY Subject: Re: Press Release  LEGATO Teams with HP To Release An Industry-First For Backup n$ Message-ID: <3da6d586$1@news.si.com>  B >Can you say when the Legato client for OpenVMS will be available.  - It's available right now from wumpusware.com.h -- aA Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com-A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comT= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventl< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:55:28 -0400E; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>N9 Subject: Re: Problem copying large files from VMS to Unixr$ Message-ID: <3da6d888$1@news.si.com>  ! >(that's when I found that WinZipe> >has an limit on the size of the input file it will compress - >2GB or so, IIRC).  J But InfoZip (www.info-zip.org) can handle files up to 4GB uncompressed andL 2GB compressed.  The reason for the 2GB limit is due to fseek's offset being a 32 bit signed integer. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.com-A Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comr= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventj< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:20:41 +0200d2 From: "Ren Schelbaum" <rene.schelbaum@datakom.at>3 Subject: Problems with Printer-Queues on VMS V7.3-1MG Message-ID: <3da6de2d$0$32596$91cee783@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at>u   Hi!-  K After updateing from V7.3 to V7.3-1 (including latest patches) I ran into ar problem:  E We have a couple of printer-queues configured and started as follows:S  	 $       !e $       ! PRT$TES_1 	 $       !i $       run SYS$SYSTEM:LATCP create port LTA112: /nolog exit= $       set device/spooled=(PRT$TES_1, SYS$SYSDEVICE) LTA112:-' $       assign/system lta112: PRT$TES_11L $       init/que/start/proc=TCPIP$TELNETSYM/on="10.237.13.99:9100" PRT$TES_1	 $       !   H This configuration works fine, long as I issue a "print /queue=prt$tes_1
 filename".  J Unfortunately we have a couple of applications that just do the following:   open PRT$TES_1 write to PRT$TES_1 close PRT$TES_1e   or "COPY filename PRT$TES_1:"t  J that used to work fine with the little trick (using the LTA-device without< setting a port for it) we got from Compaq-support years ago.  ' Since V7.3-1 when we do the open we gets  ! "%RMS-E-DNF, directory not found"o   and when we do a copy, we geto  @ %COPY-E-OPENOUT, error opening LTA112:<TEST>TEST.LIS;1 as output -RMS-E-DNF, directory not founds" -SYSTEM-W-NOSUCHFILE, no such file9 %COPY-W-NOTCOPIED, $1$DKA100:<TEST>TEST.LIS;1 not copied.n  L Before starting the long and winding road via "the new HP"-support, I wantedI to ask if anybody out there already ran into that problem and maybe has ae	 solution.u   Thanks in advance!   Ren   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:23:48 GMT 5 From: "Fred Kleinsorge" <kleinsorge@star.zko.dec.com>i6 Subject: Re: Scroll mouse question for Fred Kleinsorge1 Message-ID: <oWCp9.9$6T4.585840@news.cpqcorp.net>e  1 The support for the USB kb/mouse works like this:o  I If you have a PS2-capable machine, the PS2 kb/mouse ports are selected as6H the "system" input devices.  Both by the console, and by VMS.  So, for aI single seat system, the only KB and mouse you will be able to use are the4H ones connected to the PS2 ports.  Note that the older systems don't haveE firmware to detect the USB keyboard and mouse either, and never will.r  G On a PC legacy-free (no ISA, no junk IO) system like Marvel, and futureaK Itanium systems, the firmware understands about the USB keyboard and mouse,eK and they are selected as the "system" input devices.  So, for a single seatpL system, a KB and mouse will be selected (others that might be connected will be ignored).  E Now, on that PS2 capable system, if you wanted to run multi-seat (for D example, you plug in two graphics cards, and a USB card) so that twoL seperate users could log in - then I can probably help you... because I have a DS20 that is doing just that.i  K The limitation at least right now, is that Server 0 *must* use the "system"-L input devices... so there is no way to do what you want, on a single headed, single user system.s   _Fredd    8 Dirk Munk wrote in message <3DA475C6.8040802@home.nl>... >Thanks for your reply Fred. >1E >But perhaps you have more specific details of how to tell DECwindowsM >that a scrollmouse is there.e >rH >I have a PWS500au with OpenVMS 7.3-1 installed and a Lucent chipset USBF >card. I want to buy a Logitech USB scroll mouse and connect it to theF >card. Now I'm sure that besides running USB$STARTUP I will have to doC >some more like changing configuration files to get the whole thingTH >running with DecWindows. Since the firmware of my PWS is not USB aware,I >I doubt if I will be able to use a USB keyboard. So I would like to keepeF >using my LK461 keyboard  in combination with the USB scrollmouse. Can) >you help me with some more information ?l >e	 >Regards,  >' >Dirk  >/ >P.S.EB >For all of you who may want to try this too, I still have one bigD >problem with the USB card. For some reason DECnet and TCPIP want toI >configure it as a network device. That will hang the system, and I guessvE >for the same reason it will hang the VMS 7.3-1 boot CD as I reportedmF >earlier. When that problem has been resolved, I will report it here ! >  >Fred Kleinsorge wrote:= >=I >>The scroll wheel will be handled using the same hack as Linux - it will,H >>generate the up arrow and down arrow keys.  If you move it fast enough (I'm: >>not fast enough) it will generate page up and page down. >>D >>You can combine the CTRL key with the scroll mouse for things like DECterm,$ >>which will activate the scroll bar >>K >>If someone wants to dig up a "spec" on a PS2 compatable scroll mouse (and C >>send me one ;-), if I'm ever bored, I'll hack up a driver for it.S >> >> >>: >>Dirk Munk wrote in message <3DA3DB79.8040004@home.nl>... >> >> >>>Fred, >>>fK >>>Can you give us detailed instructions how to use a USB scroll mouse withaC >>>DECwindows? Since the firmware of my PWS does not know of USB, IfF >>>obviously can't use a USB keyboard (and there is no LK USB keyboardK >>>around yet). But using a scrollmouse with Mozilla to read this newsgroup I >>>would be great ! I have a supported card installed, and have it almostS >>>working now.  >>>f >>>  >>>n >> >> >> >> >i   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:27:49 +0100-% From: Alan Fay <alan@fay.demon.co.uk>:& Subject: SEAGATE ST336706LC Disk Drive4 Message-ID: <ao6qlr$3vl$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>  - Does anyone know if a SEAGATE ST336706LC Disk 0 drive will fit and work correctly in the 6-slot  drive bay of a DS20E.v  / The SCSI 36.7GB disk is 1 inch high and has an  . 80 pin I/O connector (for SCSI and power req).   System is running OpenVMS 7.3.   Alan :   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:58:31 -0400o# From: "Island" <sales@islandco.com>.* Subject: Re: SEAGATE ST336706LC Disk Drive/ Message-ID: <uqe0k4aukr8p65@news.supernews.com>    Alan   It will work finew  K If you need some of the universal hot plug trays I have a load for $95 eachl   Davidn   -- David B Turner	 Sales Dptt Island Computers US Corporationr 2700 Gregory Streeta	 Suite 180E Savannah GA 31404B Tel: 912 447 6622y Fax: 912 201 0096o sales@islandco.com www.islandco.com' http://www.islandco.com/legal-email.htmn   We sell Alpha Systems !a* All emails are checked for Virus and Worms2 "Alan Fay" <alan@fay.demon.co.uk> wrote in message. news:ao6qlr$3vl$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...  - Does anyone know if a SEAGATE ST336706LC Diske/ drive will fit and work correctly in the 6-slotn drive bay of a DS20E.M  . The SCSI 36.7GB disk is 1 inch high and has an. 80 pin I/O connector (for SCSI and power req).   System is running OpenVMS 7.3.   Alan   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Oct 2002 02:33 CDT ' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)m' Subject: Re: singular and plural of VAXt- Message-ID: <11OCT200202332986@gerg.tamu.edu>t  = Phillip Helbig <HELBPHI@sysdev.deutsche-boerse.com> writes....= }> N, I was simply pointing out that the association with thehA }> feminine formant was a stretch.  Everybody knows that VAXen ise }> plural and not feminine.  t } G }Interestingly, it is DIE Vax (feminine) in German.  Computer, Rechner  H }etc are masculine.  It is DIE Maschine, but I doubt that is why VAX is  }feminine in German. } ( }> And I hope this Horse is dead because( }> it doesn't have a lot to do with VMS! }  }Indeed; alas, we have drifted.l  @ Discussing VAXen is not very far off topic for the newsgroup, as off topic stuff goes.@  F A little something I saved from this newsgroup (or perhaps the InfoVAX/ mailing list) about 8 days shy of 12 years ago:l  N >(Please, no flames about this salutation.  I have VAXed, I do VAX, and I planN >to continue VAXing.  When I plant blue flowers around my many VAXes, I have aL >flaxen VAXen.  And, of course, when I send a friend a telefax message aboutK >how the revenue agents are charging me more money since my landscaping has-M >upgraded the machine room, the communication is refered to as a flaxen VAXeneF >tax FAX. And, when the communication line that this telefax goes overN >experiences errors, the sending telefax machine receives flaxen VAXen tax FAXL >NAKs.  When the sending telefax machine tells the receiving machine that itL >has received the NAKs that were sent, we call it a flaxen VAXen tax FAX NAKJ >ACK.  From the point of view of the network that experiences all of theseM >communications errors and the ensuing communications between the two telefaxEM >machines, this episode is known as a flaxen VAXen tax FAX NAK 'n ACK attack.nD >And that, my friends, is how you loose your mind in this business.) >a& >Ray Kaplan - I know what I don't know   --- Carl   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Oct 2002 02:55 CDTG' From: carl@gerg.tamu.edu (Carl Perkins)u' Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAXS- Message-ID: <11OCT200202550841@gerg.tamu.edu>   ' "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com> writes...B }Use a real dictionary!   D I suggest that you give it a try yourself (I bet you havn't actually checked). They are the same.   Main Entry: 1index  Pronunciation: 'in-"deks Function: noun< Inflected Form(s): plural indexes or indices  /-d&-"sEz/   The only other mention is:  ? 4 plural usually indices : a number or symbol or expression (assA   an exponent) associated with another to indicate a mathematicalr@   operation to be performed or to indicate use or position in an
   arrangemente  C which just goes to show that mathemeticians usually insist on using @ the one specific irregular form while the rest of the world uses either form at whim.  F From the Merriam-Webster web site. Perhaps not as authoritative as the+ OED, but it is certainly a real dictionary.v   --- Carl     }>-----Original Message-----< }>From: Bochnik, William J [mailto:William_Bochnik@acml.com]* }>Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:58 AM }>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt) }>Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAXs }> }>L }>actually, according to disctionary.com, indexes and indices are both valid, }>plurals for index, and are the same thing. }> }> }>-----Original Message-----* }>From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.com]! }>Sent: October 10, 2002 12:41 PMs/ }>To: Bochnik, William J; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come) }>Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAXc }> }>< }>indexes and indices are not the same.  Microsoft is right! }> }>>-----Original Message-----3= }>>From: Bochnik, William J [mailto:William_Bochnik@acml.com]8+ }>>Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:09 AM  }>>To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com* }>>Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAX }>>g }>>eH }>>I vote "VAXEN" like the plural of box - boxen (thanks Jim Breuer) btwF }>>personal peeve - rebooted a Microsh*t box today - checkdisk insists" }>>plural of index is indexes - ha }>>a }>>o }>>mH }>>The information contained in this transmission may contain privilegedG }>>and confidential information and is intended only for the use of thetG }>>person(s) named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or anlC }>>employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to theCA }>>intended recipient, any review, dissemination, distribution orsG }>>duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you arerG }>>not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately by F }>>reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. Please@ }>>note that for certain accounts we do not accept orders and/or@ }>>instructions by e-mail, and for those accounts we will not beG }>>responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions. Kindly H }>>refrain from sending orders or instructions by e-mail unless you have }>>confirmed thatiK }>>we accept such communications for your account. Please also note that to-M }>>satisfy regulatory requirements we review the outgoing and incoming e-mailo= }>>correspondence of staff members serving certain functions.t }>>D }>>f }>>---) }>>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.l= }>>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).eC }>>Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002h }>>n }>--- ( }>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.< }>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B }>Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 }> }>K }>The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged andrL }>confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s)< }>named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or an }>employee or agenttH }>responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, anyM }>review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is L }>strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contactF }>the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of theJ }>original message. Please note that for certain accounts we do not acceptM }>orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and for those accounts we will not bee? }>responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions.  }>Kindly refrain? }>from sending orders or instructions by e-mail unless you haveA }>confirmed thatJ }>we accept such communications for your account. Please also note that toL }>satisfy regulatory requirements we review the outgoing and incoming e-mail< }>correspondence of staff members serving certain functions. }> }> }>---a( }>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.< }>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).B }>Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 }> }---' }Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.>; }Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).OA }Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002  }    ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:25:24 -0400G5 From: "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com>t' Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAXwO Message-ID: <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D528A1F6@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>b  E so would you consider a computer index (array based on a mathematicala! abstract) the former or latter?  -  J I would consider it the former, hence my original contention that indiciesB was the correct answer, not indexes (also showing the Latin roots)     -----Original Message-----) From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.com] r Sent: October 10, 2002 5:22 PM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comt' Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAXt    8 Well for those of us who are old enough to have grown upI with a more disciplined form of the English language there is, or I guess  was, a difference.  # Quoting from my collegiate Webstersu  L indices in the sense of mathematical or other abstract signs, indexes in the sense of tables of contents.  F Te OED, confirms this definition, but with considerably more detail:-)   >-----Original Message-----i1 >From: Andrew Balaam [mailto:abalaam@yahoo.co.uk]m) >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:56 PMn >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com( >Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAX >  >p	 >Re indexs >.< >fwiw, Chambers twentieth century dictionary (1977) states:- >52 >pl. of a book usu. Indexes; other senses indices. >eI >Whilst these little asides may be a little off topic, I find them quite c
 >charming! >N7 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<l >,H >On 10/10/02, 17:58:14, "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> 0 >wrote regarding RE: singular and plural of VAX: >l >rG >> actually, according to disctionary.com, indexes and indices are both  >valid- >> plurals for index, and are the same thing.e >g >a >> -----Original Message-----p+ >> From: Tom Linden [mailto:tom@kednos.com]d" >> Sent: October 10, 2002 12:41 PM0 >> To: Bochnik, William J; Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com* >> Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAX >" >o= >> indexes and indices are not the same.  Microsoft is right!- >  >> >-----Original Message-----> >> >From: Bochnik, William J [mailto:William_Bochnik@acml.com], >> >Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 9:09 AM >> >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.ComV+ >> >Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAXr >> > >> >F >> >I vote "VAXEN" like the plural of box - boxen (thanks Jim Breuer) D >> >btw personal peeve - rebooted a Microsh*t box today - checkdisk + >> >insists plural of index is indexes - ha  >> > >> > >> >? >> >The information contained in this transmission may contain eI >> >privileged and confidential information and is intended only for the   >> >use of theH >> >person(s) named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or anD >> >employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to theB >> >intended recipient, any review, dissemination, distribution orH >> >duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you areH >> >not the intended recipient, please contact the sender immediately byG >> >reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. PleaseEA >> >note that for certain accounts we do not accept orders and/or-A >> >instructions by e-mail, and for those accounts we will not besH >> >responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions. KindlyI >> >refrain from sending orders or instructions by e-mail unless you haveo >> >confirmed thatL >> >we accept such communications for your account. Please also note that toG >> >satisfy regulatory requirements we review the outgoing and incoming  >e-mails> >> >correspondence of staff members serving certain functions. >> > >> > >> >---s* >> >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.> >> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).D >> >Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 >> > >> ---) >> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.t= >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). C >> Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002h >: >wI >> The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged  G >> and confidential information and is intended only for the use of thew
 >person(s)G >> named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee p >> ora >agentF >> responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, B >> any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this  >> communication >issE >> strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, pleasew >contactH >> the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the E >> original message. Please note that for certain accounts we do not AG >> accept orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and for those accounts n >> we will not >bepG >> responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions. Kindlyd >refrainA >> from sending orders or instructions by e-mail unless you have n >> confirmed >thatlI >> we accept such communications for your account. Please also note that iA >> to satisfy regulatory requirements we review the outgoing and t >> incoming" >e-mailc= >> correspondence of staff members serving certain functions.  >  >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.3; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). A >Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002t >  ---e& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002    I The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and J confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s)L named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agentF responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, anyK review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication isiJ strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contactD the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of theH original message. Please note that for certain accounts we do not acceptK orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and for those accounts we will not bebL responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions. Kindly refrainL from sending orders or instructions by e-mail unless you have confirmed thatH we accept such communications for your account. Please also note that toJ satisfy regulatory requirements we review the outgoing and incoming e-mail: correspondence of staff members serving certain functions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:34:23 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>' Subject: Re: singular and plural of VAX . Message-ID: <3DA6C54F.B951EE47@mindspring.com>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:  E > Merriam Webster (their online address is www.webster.com) says both2 > are acceptable....  + Aren't they the gang that has acquiesced toh. "nook-you-lar" as an acceptable pronounciation of the word "nuclear"?   Atlant    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-    So this neutron goes into a bar,   sit down and orders a drink.  " As he gets up to leave, he ask the#   barkeep "How much for the drink?"w   "For you, no charge."l   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 14:02:34 +0100 - From: "Steve Spires" <Steve.Spires@torex.com>>' Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAXnE Message-ID: <91947A84607D9D48B8E674A5FAB54DA63CB055@tahiti.tinuk.com>   D Non-Brits probably won't get this, but that pronunciation could be aH valid description of what a nuclear device does rather that itself as it relates to Liverpool...r   ;^Dt   Steve S    > -----Original Message-----> > From: Atlant Schmidt [mailto:atlantnospam@mindspring.com]=20 > Sent: 11 October 2002 13:34e > To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn) > Subject: Re: singular and plural of VAXt >=20 >=20 > "Alan E. Feldman" wrote: >=20J > > Merriam Webster (their online address is www.webster.com) says both=20 > > are acceptable.... >=20- > Aren't they the gang that has acquiesced tok0 > "nook-you-lar" as an acceptable pronounciation > of the word "nuclear"? >=20 > Atlant >=20  >  -=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D- >=20" > So this neutron goes into a bar,  >   sit down and orders a drink. >=20$ > As he gets up to leave, he ask the% >   barkeep "How much for the drink?"_ >=20 > "For you, no charge."  >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:00:52 -0400-; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com> ' Subject: Re: singular and plural of VAXn$ Message-ID: <3da6d9cd$1@news.si.com>  I > Shame the plurals of "ax", "tax", "pax", etc don't follow this rule :-)a* > (And I've not heard of boxen, coxen...!)  L Boxen is similar to "wooden" or "oaken"; i.e., "made from".  Something oaken9 is made from oak.  Something boxen is made from box wood.i --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comdA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comi= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent < Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 10:06:37 -0400.; From: "Brian Tillman" <tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com>m' Subject: Re: singular and plural of VAXo$ Message-ID: <3da6db25$1@news.si.com>  ; >indexes and indices are not the same.  Microsoft is right!    >Use a real dictionary!r  L OK, looking in a real dictionary (Funk & Wagnalls Standard Desk Dictionary),K "indices" is an alternate for "indexes".  Under the entry for "index", both . "indexes" and "indices" are listed as plurals. --A Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comaA Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.comn= 3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to preventh< Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@"8        This opinion doesn't represent that of my company   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:23:11 -0700d# From: "Tom Linden" <tom@kednos.com>S' Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAXn9 Message-ID: <CIEJLCMNHNNDLLOOGNJIGEEAFOAA.tom@kednos.com>   ' That is true, but for different things.    >-----Original Message------A >From: Brian Tillman [mailto:tillman_brian@notnoone.notnohow.com]l' >Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 7:07 AMe >To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Com( >Subject: Re: singular and plural of VAX >3 >A< >>indexes and indices are not the same.  Microsoft is right! >i >>Use a real dictionary! >t@ >OK, looking in a real dictionary (Funk & Wagnalls Standard Desk
 >Dictionary),HL >"indices" is an alternate for "indexes".  Under the entry for "index", both/ >"indexes" and "indices" are listed as plurals.  >--oB >Brian Tillman                   Internet: tillman_brian at si.comB >Smiths Aerospace                          tillman at swdev.si.com> >3290 Patterson Ave. SE, MS      Addresses modified to prevent= >Grand Rapids, MI 49512-1991     SPAM.  Replace "at" with "@" 9 >       This opinion doesn't represent that of my companyt >0 >---' >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.I; >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).eA >Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002. >p ---m& Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.: Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).@ Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:36:35 -0700n$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>' Subject: RE: singular and plural of VAX-0 Message-ID: <01C27101.70164990@sulfer.icius.com>  E They are (or the founder is) responsible for a lot of the differences:F between American English and Proper English. For example, I believe itG was Webster who started the barbaric practice of pronouncing the letterhD "Z" as Zee instead of Zed, and dropping the absolutely essential "u"F from colour. It wouldn't surprise me to learn they'd mangled "nuclear" too.  E (Dons asbestos underwear in anticipation of friendly retaliation from  the colonials on the list...)    ShaneV   -----Original Message-----9 From: Atlant Schmidt [mailto:atlantnospam@mindspring.com] & Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 5:34 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn' Subject: Re: singular and plural of VAXe     "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:  E > Merriam Webster (their online address is www.webster.com) says bothd > are acceptable....  + Aren't they the gang that has acquiesced toa. "nook-you-lar" as an acceptable pronounciation of the word "nuclear"?   Atlant    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-    So this neutron goes into a bar,   sit down and orders a drink.  " As he gets up to leave, he ask the#   barkeep "How much for the drink?"    "For you, no charge."    ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 00:27:23 -0700, From: djurkovic@gmx.net (Matthias Djurkovic) Subject: Technical Question,= Message-ID: <c135f52a.0210102327.7d608c26@posting.google.com>.   Hello fellows,  B I have a question: a colleague told me, that disks that are filled: more than 75% do not perform as good as less filled disks.C Unfortunately, he was not able to tell me the technical reasons fortC this statement, and you know, I always want to know the reasons fors such statements ;-)   F The only reason I can find for such a statement is that it will becomeA problematically with file and freespace fragmentation. But we arer@ using a defragmentation tool and for that reason it cannot be an issue.  3 Can somebody explain the technical facts for this??p    Thanks in advance for any input!   Cheers,e Matthias   ------------------------------  # Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:20:11 GMT-9 From: Hein van den Heuvel <hein_netscape@eps.zko.dec.com>0 Subject: Re: Technical Question</ Message-ID: <3DA6B19B.69E804E8@eps.zko.dec.com>:   Matthias Djurkovic wrote:d   > Hello fellows, > D > I have a question: a colleague told me, that disks that are filled< > more than 75% do not perform as good as less filled disks.  5 On a clear disk you can seek forever reason it cannot"  H > The only reason I can find for such a statement is that it will becomeC > problematically with file and freespace fragmentation. But we are 7 > using a defragmentation tool and for thatbe an issue.   G o Freespace fragmentation may cause more overhead finding enough space.w; o Defragging become much more expensive on near full disks.MC o Fragmented files may cause overhead while being read sequentially  but...C o If the disk is being kept more or less defragged this is no issueaF o  a given file on a given place on teh disk can be read over and over again @   at the same speed regardless how full the rest of the disk is!H o A randomly accessed large file will perform just as well fragmented or not.B   (provided there are enough 'mapping' windows/file header caches)  0 Here are some other arguments to consider thoughF o As a disk gets filled with more and more data, and all that data  is
 used, thisJ   will dilute the (hardware) caches ability to cache sifnificant portions.  J o As more files appears, and are being used by more concurrent users, more      locking overhead will occur. H o As more files appears, directories will get fuller and may take longer
 to search.D o If the allocation is from the outside of a banded disk towards the inside (and thisF    is pretty much the default case), then the seek range will increase dis-proportionallyI    and the maximum transfer speed gets reduced (from say 20+mb/sec on theg outside =   to less than 10mb/sec on the inside of a 2000 vintage disk.  but...F o More and more disks are not 'real' they are 'constructed' by a smart controller and. the physical mapping may not be linear at all.J o Smart controllers will performan read ahead and other caching operations	 which cans<  completely hide reduced tranfer rates/increased seek times,F o How is the usage pattern? Will old data never be touched again? Will most access be0 in the narrow bands of recently allocated files?   it all depends...m   Hein.m     >@ >y5 > Can somebody explain the technical facts for this??s >r" > Thanks in advance for any input! > 	 > Cheers,6
 > Matthias   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 07:13:03 -0400.) From: "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca>8 Subject: Re: Technical Question ; Message-ID: <7nyp9.24391$9f2.1335245@news20.bellglobal.com>l  I You are right. Disk fragmentation is probably more important than percentyF full. For example, if you moved the contents of your current disk to aL larger one, the directories would still be just as deep etc. Now on the flipF side, a nearly full OpenVMS system disk can make system tuning a pain.  J p.s. on second thought it might depend on the OS. For example, the defaultJ setup for Windows allows the pagefile to expand and contract. Trying to doK this on a nearly full system disk would cause performance problems. OpenVMSk< uses a fixed size pagefile which is determined by tuning via "@sys$update:autogen"n  
 Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,l Ontario, Canada.! http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/   9 "Matthias Djurkovic" <djurkovic@gmx.net> wrote in message-7 news:c135f52a.0210102327.7d608c26@posting.google.com...0 > Hello fellows, >mD > I have a question: a colleague told me, that disks that are filled< > more than 75% do not perform as good as less filled disks.E > Unfortunately, he was not able to tell me the technical reasons foroE > this statement, and you know, I always want to know the reasons for  > such statements ;-)  >aH > The only reason I can find for such a statement is that it will becomeC > problematically with file and freespace fragmentation. But we aresB > using a defragmentation tool and for that reason it cannot be an > issue. > 5 > Can somebody explain the technical facts for this??s > " > Thanks in advance for any input! >-	 > Cheers,-
 > Matthias   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:21:48 -0400i5 From: "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com>g Subject: RE: Technical QuestioneO Message-ID: <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D528A1F5@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>   K Disk seek across the disk becomes a significant part of the time to read oruJ write files - and as that's a mechanical process, it can become large on a' very full disk, even if defragmented.  i    ? btw the # I always heard was 90, and things get real bad at 95.    -----Original Message-----3 From: djurkovic@gmx.net [mailto:djurkovic@gmx.net]   Sent: October 11, 2002 3:27 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Comn Subject: Technical Questiono     Hello fellows,  L I have a question: a colleague told me, that disks that are filled more thanJ 75% do not perform as good as less filled disks. Unfortunately, he was notI able to tell me the technical reasons for this statement, and you know, Ia7 always want to know the reasons for such statements ;-)V  F The only reason I can find for such a statement is that it will becomeI problematically with file and freespace fragmentation. But we are using a ? defragmentation tool and for that reason it cannot be an issue.u  3 Can somebody explain the technical facts for this??     Thanks in advance for any input!   Cheers,Y Matthias    I The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged andSJ confidential information and is intended only for the use of the person(s)L named above.  If you are not the intended recipient, or an employee or agentF responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, anyK review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication isdJ strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contactD the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of theH original message. Please note that for certain accounts we do not acceptK orders and/or instructions by e-mail, and for those accounts we will not beML responsible for carrying out such orders and/or instructions. Kindly refrainL from sending orders or instructions by e-mail unless you have confirmed thatH we accept such communications for your account. Please also note that toJ satisfy regulatory requirements we review the outgoing and incoming e-mail: correspondence of staff members serving certain functions.   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:20:30 -0400i2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Technical Question4. Message-ID: <3DA6C20E.2A416A05@mindspring.com>   Hein van den Heuvel wrote:  J > o A randomly accessed large file will perform just as well fragmented or > not.D >   (provided there are enough 'mapping' windows/file header caches)  / That laast bit, of course, can be substantially * important. You can be a lot more sure that& there won't be any "window-turns" on a* single, big, contiguous allocation than on* a zillion little-bitty allocations, right?   Atlant   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 08:19:50 -0600 From: briggs@encompasserve.org Subject: RE: Technical Questionn3 Message-ID: <DUOtohP2EK+j@eisner.encompasserve.org>r   In article <2D75787AAF09C64481BDFD89113BE6D528A1F5@ac2kama0102.ac.lp.acml.com>, "Bochnik, William J" <William_Bochnik@acml.com> writes: M > Disk seek across the disk becomes a significant part of the time to read orrL > write files - and as that's a mechanical process, it can become large on a) > very full disk, even if defragmented.  x >  > A > btw the # I always heard was 90, and things get real bad at 95.e  @ If you have a full disk that is defragmented, you won't have any? problems.  A disk 100% full with static database files does nothA perform much worse than a disk 80% full of static database files.s> The reduction in average seek distance doesn't buy you a whole lot.  B If you look at seek time graphs, the per-track seek time is larger> for short seeks than for large.  Cutting average seek distance= by 20% will cut your average seek time by much less than 20%.   > The trick is keeping a 95% full disk defragmented (and keepingG the free space defragmented) in an environment where users are creatingcG and deleting files of varying sizes.  That's more easily said than thang done!A   	John Briggs   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:31:22 -0500T& From: jlsue <jlsuexxxz@screaminet.com> Subject: Re: Technical Question,8 Message-ID: <2j2equojrqk43dhmvskp8dr5m1e36bugi5@4ax.com>  E On 11 Oct 2002 00:27:23 -0700, djurkovic@gmx.net (Matthias Djurkovic)  wrote:   >Hello fellows,  >wC >I have a question: a colleague told me, that disks that are filled ; >more than 75% do not perform as good as less filled disks.eD >Unfortunately, he was not able to tell me the technical reasons forD >this statement, and you know, I always want to know the reasons for >such statements ;-) >   E Wow!  75%!  On a 72GB disk drive, that leaves 18GB free (and that's at lot of files).  D Some of these rules-of-thumb came around 15-20 years ago and may notF applicable anymore.  So be careful.  Figuring that 25% of your storage+ investment will be wasted is a real bummer.k   ------------------------------  , Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:15:20 +0200 (CEST): From: "Gotfryd Smolik, VMS lists" <gotfryd@stanpol.com.pl>L Subject: Re: Trying to install OVMS 7.0 on Digital Alphaserver 1000 4/266...I Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0210111050230.9918-100000@irys.stanpol.com.pl>e    On Thu, 10 Oct 2002, LMcC wrote: [...]dL >+The install procedure dutifully asks for my license paks which I dutifullyK >+type in one after another after another after another (there's a BUNCH ofe1 >+them things!) until I have them all registered.   1  Och, you can do the work *after* installation :)k8  Regardless that - you can save the work (read: save the( LMF$LICENSE.DAT file :)) to diskquette ! [...] B >+  I CAN, however, get a DCL prompt by booting with OPA0: settingH >+and bypassing the login stuff.  I can "Set Noon" to fiddle around withM >+different DCL commands - however they rarely run as I usually get some kind-N >+of File not found error or "images must be installed" error along with a few$ >+others that I can't even remember.    But then you are most can do.  What you can:> 1. save little command procedures to make your work after next>   reboots faster; That not neccessary, but when you more times<   reboots (or CTL-P) the system and next time write manually:   b.ex. "SET CONTROL=(Y,T)" (to get "interactivity" in the>   detached process) you may find a little command procedure(s)
   friendly :)c   My favorite command set: A.1 $ CREATE/DIRECTORY []/log	! -:) You on ALPHA mustS> 	! create the default boot direectory SYS$SYDEVICE:[SYSEXE] !  B.6 $ CREATE 1.COM 	! On next line starts the body of file $ set noon   $ set prompt="$$$ "  $ write sys$output "Run @2"n7 $ spawn/prompt/input=OPA0:/output=OPA0:/proces=MANSTARTo $ exit <CTL-Z>G7  When you run @1 (after the manual boot) you get parent48 process "protected" from crashes/logouts and marked with7 "$$$ " prompt if something happens with the subprocess.s C.6 $ CREATE 2.COM  ! On next line starts the body of file $ set terminal/inq/insert 	 $ set on   $ set control=(t,y)  $ exit  ;  In next step, running @2 you get a "nearly interactive" :)G6 process to do rest of the work. Specifically a 'faster; than you can think' ;> commands like DIR/FULL are no longerk- a problem :) (can be interrupted and tracked)r    THENI - you can check:  & $ spawn/nowait @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP MIN<  ...be aware that STARTUP does SET TERMINAL (2 time, AFAIK),= and you must press ENTER (from time to tim or the STARTUP.COMu! will wait in the SET TERM step :) <  That means - regardless that you "only" wait for completionE of the @STARTUP MIN - you *must* press ENTER ("from time to time") :) @  You can hoever run the startup *without* SPAWN/NOWAI - but then/ if something goes wrong youir system will hang.o  7  When minimal startup completes - you get "nearly full"): VMS :) Report us what you can find next - what interesting( you can found b.ex. in autogen report...  '  To be precise: you *can* run a simple:p  $ SPAWN @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP MIN,= but suspecting that you may tens times reboot your machine :)e! will propose the "starting" work.o    Regards - Gotfryd   -- nE ===================================================================== F $ ON F$ERROR("LANGUAGE","ENGLISH","IN_MESSAGE").GT.F$ERROR("NORMAL") - 		THEN EXCUSE/OBJECT=MEa. $!                        GS@stanpol.zabrze.plE =====================================================================r   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:30:49 -0400n From: "LMcC" <sorry@nospam>aL Subject: Re: Trying to install OVMS 7.0 on Digital Alphaserver 1000 4/266.../ Message-ID: <uqe2ma2tj8a32e@corp.supernews.com>o  B Hre's some more results and, wherever I could see them, some error messages...   = "Phillip Sobottke" <psobottke@ameritech.net> wrote in messagem9 news:e8mp9.3182$F53.2970027@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...i@ > Try >>>boot -flags 0,0  (before you go to all that other work)  L Did try this with same result.  Blinking cursor, nothing works, system hangs! at accounting information screen.a  < > > "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote in message3 > > news:ao4jgq$ills7$1@ID-141708.news.dfncis.de..., > > > LMcC wrote:o@ > > > > "Peter Weaver" <peter.weaver@stelco.ca> wrote in message4 > > > OK, now it is interesting. Some things to try; > > >yH > > > 1. A newer version of VMS, 7.0 is rather old, 7.3-1 just came out.  L Already have 7.2 running on our real network - Whole point of this excerciseH is that when we upgraded to 7.2 (or was it 7.3?  I dunno - it's somebodyJ else's job) several people in the company lost access to their WordperfectI (v5) files that had been created on the old OVMS7.0 system.  Can't figurecH out why - the files just no longer open correctly - they seem to fail toJ convert to anything other than gibberish and a little bit of text that canB sometimes be read between all the gibberish. (gibberish=same kindaK characters that you might see if you tried to open a binary picture file inaG Notepad).  So we dug this old Alpha out of the graveyard and figured weiI could load VMS7.0 on it so we could then run WP for Alpha on it and maybemJ convert the files to something usable. (WP worked fine on the original 7.0 system).    L > > > For the rest of these there is no need to re-install VMS to test them, > at= > > > the >>> type B DKA0 (or whatever your system drive is).t   scsi hd is dka300    > > >-L > > > 2. What type of drives do you have and how many (if you need help here > > thenL > > > from the >>> prompt type SHOW DEVICE and post the output here), it mayL > > > 3. IIRC the AS 1000 needs a special SCSI terminator on the back of theI > > > machine. Do you have one? Someone who knows hardware better than met  I do have weirdly terminated dssi cards - tried installing with them in andl' with them out - same results each time.0  L > > > 4. Before booting do a SHOW CONSOLE, if it says GRAPHICS then do a SETI > > > CONSOLE SERIAL then type INIT. (I'm just grasping at straws on this  one, > Ii; > > > don't think this will work, but it may on a AS 1000.)k  F tried this - it was on graphics.  Set it to serial but then every bootL attempt hangs up at "jumping to bootstrap".  Changed it back to graphics andH now we get past the jumping and hang at the accounting. (Like the usual, original problem).  L So here is the latest screen that I can see - this after a full, initialize,G install and after adding back the dssi cards and terminators that I hadcD removed before.  (Did run ECU to add the cards).  This isn't all theG messages received after autogen reboot - it's just what I can see on mym screen right now.r  ; %%%%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 11-OCT-2002 12:42:32.92 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%o( Message from user Audit$server on MYNODEI Security Alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on MYNODE, systemp1 id:1025 (Screen actually wraps between 10 and 25)e, Auditable event:            Identifier added5 Event time:                   11-OCT-2002 12:42:32.91m) PID:                             00000403m! Process Name:             STARTUPr USERNAME:              Systemo# Process owner:             [SYSTEM]i Image name:o4 MYNODE$DKA300:[SYS0.SYSCOMMON.][SYSEXE]AUTHORIZE.EXE, Identifier name:             SYS$NODE_MYNODE( Identifier value:             %X80010000# Attributes:                    Nonec  J %ADA-I-TASTERUNH, Task with ID %TASK 9 of type Verify_Dependant_Tasks_type) has terminated due to unhandled exceptionrJ %SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit = 64, current interactive value = 0=     SYSTEM          job terminated at 11-OCT-2002 12:42:36.87I       Accounting information: G     Buffered I/O count:                1911            Peak Working set> size:                3584aL     Direct I/O count:                      825            Peak Virtual Size:                171728cK     Page Faults:                            1196           Mounted Volumes:V 0s= Charged CPU time:       0 00:00:03.35           Elapsed time:t
 0 00:00:34.19n! <and here is the blinking cursor>i    L Now I will <ctrl>P to halt, and do that show device thing and type.  hang on a sec...  1 DKA300.3.0.6.0        DKA300        RZ28M    0568o1 DKA500.5.0.6.0        DKA500        RRD45    1645e DVA0.0.0.1000.0      DVA0t5 EWA0.0.0.12.0         EWA0            <a mac address>t5 PKA0.7.0.6.0            PKA0            SCSI Bus ID 7y3 PUA0.7.0.1005.0      PAA0             DSSI Bus ID 7l3 PUB0.7.0.1007.0      PAB0             DSSI Bus ID 7l    C Thanks for looking this stuff over -still have yet to try Gotfryd'scG suggestions but will as soon as I can.  Just ask for any other info you   might need that I've left out...   :o)>   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 09:33:18 -0700. From: spamsink2001@yahoo.com (Alan E. Feldman)& Subject: Why is LTA0: offline mounted?= Message-ID: <b096a4ee.0210110833.104f1d40@posting.google.com>e  D How can LTA0: be mounted when it's offline? What does it mean? (It's* not a problem; I'm just curious about it.)   $ SH DEV LT   v. Device                  Device           Error.  Name                   Status           Count. LTA0:                   Offline mounted      0. LTA1:                   Online               0   $ SH DEV LTA0/FUL>  -9 Terminal LTA0:, device type unknown, is offline, mounted,V record-orientede8     device, carriage control, device is a template only.  aF     Error count                    0    Operations completed                  0F     Owner process                 ""    Owner UIC                      [SYSTEM]=     Owner process ID        00000000    Dev Prot             2 S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G,WFF     Reference count                0    Default buffer size                  80  @ VAX/VMS v6.1; v6.2 also shows "Offline mounted" for this device.   Thanks.    Disclaimer: JMHO Alan E. Feldmany   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:58:27 -0400s2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>* Subject: Re: Why is LTA0: offline mounted?. Message-ID: <3DA70333.9DFE1C16@mindspring.com>   "Alan E. Feldman" wrote:  F > How can LTA0: be mounted when it's offline? What does it mean? (It's, > not a problem; I'm just curious about it.)  ( LTA0: is just a "prototype" for the real( LAT devices that will be created as LAT-+ connected terminals connect to your system.n  . A fair number of "dynamically-created" devices- (such as LAT terminals and cterm ($ SET HOST)D terminals work in this fashion.i  * Real UCBs are "cloned" from this prototype UCB as needed.  ( (Someone will probably be along in a few& moments to give you better terminology0 and/or more details, but that's the gist of it.)   Atlant   ------------------------------   Date: 11 Oct 2002 11:40:28 GMT( From: per@nospam.mimer.se (Per Schrder)1 Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPede8 Message-ID: <Xns92A48C35CB877pescatmimer@195.58.103.121>  . Seriously, can't you just drop all javascript?   What do you *NEED* it for?  H I do all my browsing with javascript turned off. It's this thing I have C with computers and security; I surf the internet because I want to :K read/find information, not because I want my computer to execute arbitrary b, code that it stumbles over on various sites.  L I have yet to find a site that NEEDs javascript. Fully functional sites can I be built without it. (Many sites don't work if javascript is turned off, iF but I believe all of them could be made to work if they were properly 
 designed.)  L So ditch the javascript, and make your sites more compatible with different  kind of browsers!    /Per    3 "warren sander" <warren.sander@compaq.com> wrote in>( <F5lp9.37$M74.756849@news.cpqcorp.net>:    >ok,F >    I've putzed around with the webtrendslive javascript as much as I >    can. I : >can't make it stop doing the error on 3.03 and still give >info on non-3.03 browers..e >-   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:30:31 -0700s$ From: Shane Smith <ssmith@icius.com>1 Subject: RE: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPedc0 Message-ID: <01C27100.7AE853A0@sulfer.icius.com>  H Seconded. I don't mind a little javascript here and there as long as theF site isn't completely disfunctional without it, since I also surf withG it disabled. The website with the security slide (see the "bre[e/a]chesnE thread) points to a site that seems to need Javascript to do a simplen hyperlink. Sheesh. r   Shane    -----Original Message-----6 From: per@nospam.mimer.se [mailto:per@nospam.mimer.se]& Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 4:40 AM To: Info-VAX@Mvb.Saic.Come1 Subject: Re: www.openvms.compaq.com has been HPeda    . Seriously, can't you just drop all javascript?   What do you *NEED* it for?  H I do all my browsing with javascript turned off. It's this thing I have C with computers and security; I surf the internet because I want to s@ read/find information, not because I want my computer to execute
 arbitrary , code that it stumbles over on various sites.  G I have yet to find a site that NEEDs javascript. Fully functional siteso can H be built without it. (Many sites don't work if javascript is turned off,F but I believe all of them could be made to work if they were properly 
 designed.)  A So ditch the javascript, and make your sites more compatible withR
 different  kind of browsers!>   /Per    3 "warren sander" <warren.sander@compaq.com> wrote inV( <F5lp9.37$M74.756849@news.cpqcorp.net>:    >ok,F >    I've putzed around with the webtrendslive javascript as much as I >    can. I : >can't make it stop doing the error on 3.03 and still give >info on non-3.03 browers..o >t   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:28:38 -0400I2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>( Subject: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!. Message-ID: <3DA6D206.DA3EC7B4@mindspring.com>   See:  ,   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-961495.html  E   "HP still sells Alpha servers but plans to phase them out by 2004."n  7 Now, sometimes I'm a sucker so *I'M* willing to believe > this is not true based on what I've read here, (heck, I stayed8 with DEC *LONG* after I knew *IT* was dead), but here it, is again in print (or at least "in pixels"):  '   "AlpaServers are dead, REAL SOON NOW. -    Quite possibly long before the VMS port to "    Itanic is functionally useful."  @ Do you suppose the people who sign Capital Purchase Requisitions< read more of ZDNet or C.O.V. ? Do you suppose they care that8 VMS is being ported to Itanic? Do you suppose they know?   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:20:50 -0400 2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>( Subject: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!. Message-ID: <3DA6D032.682CCAA2@mindspring.com>   See:  ,   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-961495.html  4 Now, sometimes I'm a sucker so I'm more than willing8 to believe it's not true (heck, I stayed with DEC *LONG*7 after I knew it was dead) but here it is, yet again, in3  print (or at least "in pixels").  : Do you think the people who sign the capital purchase reqs read ZDNet or C.O.V?   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:40:16 -0400(2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!. Message-ID: <3DA6D4C0.AE90CA8C@mindspring.com>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:t  * >   "AlphaServers are dead, REAL SOON NOW./ >    Quite possibly long before the VMS port to $ >    Itanic is functionally useful."  , That last bit is me, paraphrasing how people- will actually read the message. I should havee made that clear.   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:14:46 -0400c& From: Ken Robinson <kenrbnsn1@rcn.com>, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!< Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021011091053.0718cec8@pop.rcn.com>  ( At 09:28 AM 10/11/2002 -0400, you wrote: >See:u >a. >   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-961495.html >aG >   "HP still sells Alpha servers but plans to phase them out by 2004."   H I'm not sure where you're seeing that article, when I click on the link  supplied, I get   ) "Intel hyperthreading traced to DEC tech"m  H Anyway all the official road maps displayed at HPETS this week indicate J that the AlphaServers will be sold at least through 2006 and supported at F least through 2011. Off the record, people have been saying that they J expect both Alpha and VAX systems to be supported until people don't have 
 them anymore.-   Ken"   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 10:24:37 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) , Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!3 Message-ID: <$eGvAZiRjD6T@eisner.encompasserve.org>o  c In article <3DA6D206.DA3EC7B4@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:: > See: > . >   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-961495.html > G >   "HP still sells Alpha servers but plans to phase them out by 2004."7 > 9 > Now, sometimes I'm a sucker so *I'M* willing to believet@ > this is not true based on what I've read here, (heck, I stayed: > with DEC *LONG* after I knew *IT* was dead), but here it. > is again in print (or at least "in pixels"): >   ? 	Michael Kanellos in private email tells me:  "Ms. Fiorina saiddD 	2004 in a speech."  (And that is almost a direct quote, no citation 	offered or even a timeframe).  = 	I had pointed him to slides and statements that clearly show + 	2006 sales ending, 2010 when support ends.w  F 	I did not reply to him, I know it won't be worth the effort in typingB 	the keystrokes.  I've exchanged a dozen or so emails with Michael 	over the years.  E 	I have long history of pointing out errors in writer's ways.  A high-A 	percentage of the time, they do little to correct their mistakesdC 	as then they pretty much have to admit they are wrong.  Few people @ 	like admitting they are wrong in a public forum.  Some of theseF 	online rags are tricky.  Stories change but timestamps don't.  OthersC 	have timestamps change so it is clear they went back and edited too 	match the facts.   G 	There are other convenient facts left out off that piece of his, thoseo 	too were left unanswered.   				Rob"  pB Men with walkie-talkie                  I'm home again to you babeC Men with flashlights waving             You know it makes me wonderfG Up upon the tower                       Sittin' in the quiet slipstreamo> The clock reads daylight savin'         Rollin' in the thunder  .                                 -- Neil Young    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT)i. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!@ Message-ID: <20021011155624.65621.qmail@web20201.mail.yahoo.com>  ! Do you believe in the press ???? 1  Do you believe in Gaartner  ????  	 Me not ! b   Regardsn   FC h  7 --- Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:- > See: > . >   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-961495.html > G >   "HP still sells Alpha servers but plans to phase them out by 2004."n > 9 > Now, sometimes I'm a sucker so *I'M* willing to believe @ > this is not true based on what I've read here, (heck, I stayed: > with DEC *LONG* after I knew *IT* was dead), but here it. > is again in print (or at least "in pixels"): > ) >   "AlpaServers are dead, REAL SOON NOW. / >    Quite possibly long before the VMS port toP$ >    Itanic is functionally useful." > B > Do you suppose the people who sign Capital Purchase Requisitions> > read more of ZDNet or C.O.V. ? Do you suppose they care that: > VMS is being ported to Itanic? Do you suppose they know? >  > Atlant >  >      =====n ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - BrazilF fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?2 Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:56:47 -0400X2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!. Message-ID: <3DA6F4BF.F07FB9E1@mindspring.com>   Ken Robinson wrote:k  * > At 09:28 AM 10/11/2002 -0400, you wrote: > >See:e > >U0 > >   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-961495.html > >eI > >   "HP still sells Alpha servers but plans to phase them out by 2004.": >lI > I'm not sure where you're seeing that article, when I click on the link  > supplied, I get  >t+ > "Intel hyperthreading traced to DEC tech"p  0 That's the article. Read about 3/4 (4/5?) of the1 way down to find the piece of the article I citedp at the beginning of my post.   Atlant   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:03:35 -0400h2 From: Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com>, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!. Message-ID: <3DA6F657.F7AA6EE7@mindspring.com>   Fabio Cardoso wrote:  " > Do you believe in the press ????! > Do you believe in Gartner  ????-  ) The more-interesting question, though, is-  1 "Do your bosses and customers believe the press?"n   Atlant   ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:22:50 -0700 (PDT)D. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!@ Message-ID: <20021011162250.71897.qmail@web20210.mail.yahoo.com>   Atlant  ! You are RIGHT ! What mess !!! ...e     Regardsc   FC c7 --- Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> wrote:a > Fabio Cardoso wrote: > $ > > Do you believe in the press ????# > > Do you believe in Gartner  ????" > + > The more-interesting question, though, isi > 3 > "Do your bosses and customers believe the press?"t >  > Atlant >  >      =====i ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazil1 fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?2 Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 11:36:28 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young)w, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!3 Message-ID: <099qBxkSOxl0@eisner.encompasserve.org>d  c In article <3DA6F657.F7AA6EE7@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:o > Fabio Cardoso wrote: > # >> Do you believe in the press ???? " >> Do you believe in Gartner  ???? > + > The more-interesting question, though, ist > 3 > "Do your bosses and customers believe the press?"o >    	Sadly, yes.  ? 	But that is not all bad.  If one is to become a Gartner basher ; 	or a ZDNet basher, one better have some clear cut cases ofe9 	where they are wrong.  The suckers that pay for the 80% h< 	probability of Gartner, more power to them.  The folks that= 	rely on what they read in various online rags, more power toa< 	them.  That said, it is quite simple to point out the error9 	of their ways and build a great portfolio in case anyone : 	ever quotes or believes some of the errors.   From a very; 	long-winded June 1997 exchange with Mr. K, I am showing mys= 	side, paraphrasing him, he basically says that "spec doesn'taA 	sell workstations and DEC's benchmarks were carefully selected."1   	I said:   >m@ >        Carefully selected?  Huh?  Sun trots out 5 or 6 obscureB >        benchmarks, VERY carefully leaving Digital out of the mixC >        and you got the cronies to say Digital "carefully" selectsa+ >        application benchmarks?  Nice try.a >rB >        Who is talking about SPEC above?  Look again.  Click downG >        through that perfbrif.html link, what do you find?  How about:y >a >                Computervisionn( >                Electronic Data Systems  >                Mentor Graphics& >                Parametric Technology >                Synopsys, Inc.e? >                Environmental Systems Research Institute, Inc.n >                Ansys >                Bentley  >                EDS Unigraphics# >                PTC (Pro/Engineer)e >                Softimage >                SolidWorksp >                VeriBesti >sF >        Where is SPEC?  You are attempting to deflect the performance >        issue.  > @ > My point?  I honestly don't believe there are any applicationsB > on UNIX workstations that outperform [Alpha] NT [workstations].   E 	And of course, no citations or evidence to suggest I was wrong.  Ande( 	he got the point in a few more replies.  = 	You have to understand , like a liberal bias , many of thesedD 	writers have their own bias that not only *often* skews, or leaves D 	out, or publishes facts that clearly aren't correct. The ommissions@ 	and commissions of errors can often be refuted but seldom are!!  = 	You know what tha main problem is?  It isn't worth the moneyl@ 	to refute some of the crap.  Here's a bet.  I'll bet if Michael> 	or anyone trots out a Gartner opinion piece that Dell will beI 	successful in undercutting HP's ink business, you will see all HP forcesrF 	marshalled including advertising, upper management pushing very hard @ 	against that notion.  We are talking serious money there folks!  ? 	You won't see anyone defending Alpha.  Certainly wouldn't rockt6 	that Intel relationship.  There is money there folks!   				Robi  mB Men with walkie-talkie                  I'm home again to you babeC Men with flashlights waving             You know it makes me wonderdG Up upon the tower                       Sittin' in the quiet slipstreamd> The clock reads daylight savin'         Rollin' in the thunder  .                                 -- Neil Young    ------------------------------  + Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT)i. From: Fabio Cardoso <fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br>, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!? Message-ID: <20021011164315.4552.qmail@web20203.mail.yahoo.com>i  D The great problem is : everybody in this list are system managers orC specialists and we didnt become CIOs ! ! ! May be it is time for usi to join www.mba.org  too !!!       Regardsr   FC a5 --- Rob YThbe oung <young_r@encompasserve.org> wrote:s? > In article <3DA6F657.F7AA6EE7@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidtl' > <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:i > > Fabio Cardoso wrote: > > % > >> Do you believe in the press ???? $ > >> Do you believe in Gartner  ???? > > - > > The more-interesting question, though, isw > > 5 > > "Do your bosses and customers believe the press?"h > >  >  > 	Sadly, yes. > A > 	But that is not all bad.  If one is to become a Gartner bashere= > 	or a ZDNet basher, one better have some clear cut cases of ; > 	where they are wrong.  The suckers that pay for the 80% .> > 	probability of Gartner, more power to them.  The folks that? > 	rely on what they read in various online rags, more power to8> > 	them.  That said, it is quite simple to point out the error; > 	of their ways and build a great portfolio in case anyonee< > 	ever quotes or believes some of the errors.   From a very= > 	long-winded June 1997 exchange with Mr. K, I am showing myo? > 	side, paraphrasing him, he basically says that "spec doesn'tnC > 	sell workstations and DEC's benchmarks were carefully selected."s > 
 > 	I said: >  > >tB > >        Carefully selected?  Huh?  Sun trots out 5 or 6 obscureD > >        benchmarks, VERY carefully leaving Digital out of the mixE > >        and you got the cronies to say Digital "carefully" selectsf- > >        application benchmarks?  Nice try.u > >-D > >        Who is talking about SPEC above?  Look again.  Click downI > >        through that perfbrif.html link, what do you find?  How about:@ > >c! > >                Computervisiono* > >                Electronic Data Systems" > >                Mentor Graphics( > >                Parametric Technology! > >                Synopsys, Inc.eA > >                Environmental Systems Research Institute, Inc.c > >                Ansys > >                Bentley" > >                EDS Unigraphics% > >                PTC (Pro/Engineer)  > >                Softimage > >                SolidWorksj > >                VeriBesto > >1H > >        Where is SPEC?  You are attempting to deflect the performance > >        issue.  > >aB > > My point?  I honestly don't believe there are any applicationsD > > on UNIX workstations that outperform [Alpha] NT [workstations].  > G > 	And of course, no citations or evidence to suggest I was wrong.  And * > 	he got the point in a few more replies. > ? > 	You have to understand , like a liberal bias , many of thesemF > 	writers have their own bias that not only *often* skews, or leaves F > 	out, or publishes facts that clearly aren't correct. The ommissionsB > 	and commissions of errors can often be refuted but seldom are!! > ? > 	You know what tha main problem is?  It isn't worth the moneysB > 	to refute some of the crap.  Here's a bet.  I'll bet if Michael@ > 	or anyone trots out a Gartner opinion piece that Dell will beK > 	successful in undercutting HP's ink business, you will see all HP forcesoH > 	marshalled including advertising, upper management pushing very hard B > 	against that notion.  We are talking serious money there folks! > A > 	You won't see anyone defending Alpha.  Certainly wouldn't rock 8 > 	that Intel relationship.  There is money there folks! > 	 > 				Robl >  dD > Men with walkie-talkie                  I'm home again to you babeE > Men with flashlights waving             You know it makes me wonder I > Up upon the tower                       Sittin' in the quiet slipstreams@ > The clock reads daylight savin'         Rollin' in the thunder > 0 >                                 -- Neil Young  >      =====u ========================== Fbio dos Santos Cardoso OpenVMS System Manager Rio de Janeiro - Brazilg fabiopenvms@yahoo.com.br ==========================  2 __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!?2 Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 11:11:55 -0600- From: Kilgallen@SpamCop.net (Larry Kilgallen) , Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!3 Message-ID: <u6spBzirJAfm@eisner.encompasserve.org>p  c In article <3DA6D206.DA3EC7B4@mindspring.com>, Atlant Schmidt <atlantnospam@mindspring.com> writes:s > See: > . >   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-961495.html > G >   "HP still sells Alpha servers but plans to phase them out by 2004."n > 9 > Now, sometimes I'm a sucker so *I'M* willing to believe-@ > this is not true based on what I've read here, (heck, I stayed: > with DEC *LONG* after I knew *IT* was dead), but here it. > is again in print (or at least "in pixels"): > ) >   "AlpaServers are dead, REAL SOON NOW.1/ >    Quite possibly long before the VMS port tok$ >    Itanic is functionally useful."  I The difference between ZDNet and me is that they run a publishing empire.e  G Well, also that they don't seem to be here in St. Louis this week wherecH HP is saying they will continue to sell Alphas at least through 2006 and/ continue to support them at least through 2011.b   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:40:14 -0400a- From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca>a, Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!, Message-ID: <3DA6FEEC.E3EA4CF8@videotron.ca>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:e. >   http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-961495.html  L Ok, I am puzzled. When Bob GQ Palmer accused Intel of stealing Alpha secretsK in order to force Intel to relieve Digital from its money losing FAB plant,sL wasn't the accusation that Intel had stolen Alpha secrets and used them  forM its 8086 Pentium 3 ? That article says that Digital accused Intel of stealings Alpha stuff for its Itanium.  J Also, at that time, did Digital transfer Alpha design engineers to Intel ?I (the article  says so). Or did it just transfer the FAB plant employees ?0  J While I can see the gaping holes in this articles, it is true that averageL readers would take it as a bible, and the 2004 date for Alpha termination isG not good. On the other hand, I consider Alpha to be dead already, so itf' doesn't really change my opinion of it.a  N What is good about the article however is that it does show Digital has havingJ made major contributions to technology, something which was rarely written? about in the widely distributed rags and which few people knew.n   ------------------------------    Date: 11 Oct 2002 12:41:09 -0600+ From: young_r@encompasserve.org (Rob Young) , Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!3 Message-ID: <GzitrE5FNaya@eisner.encompasserve.org>b  \ In article <3DA70691.AB102F43@videotron.ca>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> writes:   > M > But when the writer says that Alpha will be dead in 2004, I don't think it 0 > is wrong to say this.S    & 	But he didn't say that, he says this:  C A deal between Compaq and Intel in June 2001 led to a further brain6H transfer. Engineers acquired from Compaq in that deal are now working on@ compilers for Itanium and future versions of the chip, includingF "Chivano." HP still sells Alpha servers but plans to phase them out by 2004.f  F 	So once again JF... you like Michael are guilty of twisting the facts 	(and/or statements).l  ? 	In your case, to support your incessant conspiracy theories.  k   				Robs   ------------------------------  % Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:12:52 -0400 - From: JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@videotron.ca> , Subject: Re: ZDNet says you're dead by 2004!, Message-ID: <3DA70691.AB102F43@videotron.ca>   Atlant Schmidt wrote:+, > >   "AlphaServers are dead, REAL SOON NOW.1 > >    Quite possibly long before the VMS port to & > >    Itanic is functionally useful."  B I really didn't see such Evil in this. (and for me to say that...)  N Alpha was fatally wounded on June 25 2001. It may have some remaining cellularJ activity with EV7 and EV79 coming out. But when the writer says that AlphaK will be dead in 2004, I don't think it is wrong to say this. The minute the N Digital engineers put the final touches on EV79 and send the blueprints out toF the FAB, then Alpha, as an architecture will have stopped all cellularJ activity. And 2004 seems as good as guess as any on when that will happen.  L I may disagree with Compaq/HP's decision to murder Alpha. And I may not haveK full confidence that their "plan of record" is what they *really* intend toyI do.  But even I will admit that Compaq was pretty good and publishing itso infamous "plan of record".    M *Assuming* that the real plans are to make VMS thrive and survive in the longlH term, then anyone who has heard of Compaq's "plan of record" won't see aL problem. It is pretty obvious that HP will have a sufficient supply of AlphaG chips to continue building systems to bridge the gap between 2004 and ae* comemrcially viable IA64 based VMS system.  D And *IF* HP's true hidden intentions are to migrate VMS customers toJ IA64-HP-UX, as was so eloquently stated by Scott Stallard, then it doesn'tM matter at all. HP will just have to maintain existing Alpha-VMS systems for aML few years before customers migrate to IBM or SUN and nobody will bother with VMS on IA64.   ------------------------------   End of INFO-VAX 2002.562 ************************